========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:57:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Erica Hunt's ARCADE (?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks! yes I've taught Local History a couple of times, in both grad and ugrad classes, with great results. it's a terrific book. mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Kathy Lou Schultz > Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 3:16 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Erica Hunt's ARCADE (?) > > > _Arcade_ is a different text: a collaboration with visual artist Alison > Saar. It does not replicate _Local History_. _Local History_ is fab to > teach; I've had students write poems/letters addressed to the piece called > "Correspondence Theory" and gotten some great work. It looks like _Local > History_ is available through Small Press Distribution. > Good luck, > Kathy Lou > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Kathy Lou Schultz > http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou > > Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available > Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org > > > > From: Tenney Nathanson > > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > > Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:06:30 -0700 > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Erica Hunt's ARCADE (?) > > > > does anyone know whether Erica Hunt's ARCADE contains all of her earlier > > LOCAL HISTORY? (My recollection is that Erica told me it does, > but that's a > > few years ago now.) > > > > and if not: any idea whether LOCAL HISTORY is still obtainable (I'd need > > around 40 copies--it's for a course)? > > > > thanks, > > > > Tenney > > > > mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net > > mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu > > http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn > > > > POG: > > mailto:pog@gopog.org > > http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:50:46 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: "(1) Re-Announcing Jacket 17; (2) Riley/Tranter London reading 15 August" Comments: To: edit@jacketmagazine.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It seems there's always room in Jacket's overstuffed pockets for a few more literary morsels. http://jacketmagazine.com/17/ Fresh Item: Ern Malley's recently discovered Last Will and Testament (readers will note a suspicious likeness in some of the text to the last delirious ramble of morphine-soaked Arthur Rimbaud, Marseilles, 1891) Fresh Item: Free Grass magazine: a link to the electronic edition of the only extant number of Free Grass magazine, made up of HTML text and linked photographic images of the original printed pages. Free Grass, a five page mimeographed magazine, splashed into the pond of little 'underground' magazines in Australia in 1968. The editorial standards were loose, and there was a strong counter-cultural flavour to the thing. Strangest of all, it lived up to its title: it was literally free. But Free Grass had a secret... ________________________ And if you just happen to be in London on the evening of Thursday 15 August, drop by the Poetry Society BT Poetry Studio, 22 Betterton Street, London WC2H 9BU at 7.30 to hear brilliant British poet Denise Riley and Jacket editor John Tranter on a whirlwind visit from Sydney. Here's what the Poetry Society says: Denise Riley is "wide-ranging, sometimes anguished, her poems are fascinating and beautiful, and more than usually thought-provoking" (The Guardian). John Tranter's poetry has "a cool elegance and ... a macabre whimsy which reminded me irresistibly of the best moments in Twin Peaks" (Andrew Riemer, Sydney Morning Herald). PS: If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, please just ask. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 20:10:08 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: a modest proposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since Alan S wants to publish his poems via email and since many on this = list seem unwilling simply to ignore him, why not start up a Sondheim = list? Occasional advertisements, with samples, could appear on poetics = but otherwise those who want Sondheim can get him, and those who do not = would not. =20 Susan (trying to be pacific) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:28:01 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: a modest proposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like that idea Chris (trying to coast).... "Susan M. Schultz" wrote: > Since Alan S wants to publish his poems via email and since many on this list seem unwilling simply to ignore him, why not start up a Sondheim list? Occasional advertisements, with samples, could appear on poetics but otherwise those who want Sondheim can get him, and those who do not would not. > > > Susan (trying to be pacific) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:28:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: advertising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I dislike the idea of advertising. There _is_ a list I keep for those who just want my work; it's in place. The work depends on its dissemination. Personally, I'm sick of hearing from Jesse Glass and Tranter's advertising - should that stop them? Mez on occasion posts to 8-10 lists; I get that many duplicates from her. Not that often, but enough to take notice of. Should we get rid of her? I don't send out "samples" of my work. If enough people want me to leave this list, I will. But I'm not into advertising, except maybe once/twice a year to try and sell my cdroms in order to survive. Personally I'd rather see MORE poetry on this list than advertising, and a hell of a lot LESS talk about langpo when it comes to poetics. Or maybe we should start say an exciting list dealing with pop art as the lastest thing? There are people on a lost of lists I automatically delete, or almost always - including NN, who I like, but get 5-10 messages a day from her/them. Perhaps she should be excluded from the lists she was on? She was already kicked off some - and at the same time voted one of the most important women on the Internet. But since no one here practically reads or understands any of this, why bother reading someone who has a following a hell of a lot greater than any of us? And probably writes better too. Let's clean this list - turn it into Kristeva's clean and proper body. The langpo boys and poets can take over. Dead meat. Dead writing. Long live it. Safe academic stuff. Fuck it all that we have some sexual/"ultra- violent" work here. Better to write abstract. Above all keep poetry clean and useless. Talk among ourselves. Sanitize. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:53:30 -0700 Reply-To: Soli Psis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Soli Psis Subject: another web-mural Comments: To: Tim Gaze , jbberry@hiwaay.net, Jim Leftwich , Eggvert8@aol.com, collagepoetry@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable another web-mural: http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/umpolungofsememicelle.jpg = (1M)=20 (right-click and save target as often works better for large image = files) Lanny=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:50:25 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: a modest proposal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Susan, But you can't be 'pacific' if you title your post that way. Can you? Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Susan M. Schultz [mailto:schultz@HAWAII.RR.COM] Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 6:10 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: a modest proposal Since Alan S wants to publish his poems via email and since many on this list seem unwilling simply to ignore him, why not start up a Sondheim list? Occasional advertisements, with samples, could appear on poetics but otherwise those who want Sondheim can get him, and those who do not would not. Susan (trying to be pacific) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:09:51 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: advertising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Maria's onto something when she raises _fear_ as a response to alan sondheim's writing... fear of what, I'm not sure; but I have a big nose and I smell fear quite easily she mentions bodily fluids and maybe that's it - like the man in the kubrick film worried about the enemy and the danger to his precious bodily fluids we live in a fearful world alan's a good antidote to that posting his work to a separate list would be a different *kind of post because the work exists considerably in its context, to change the mode of its posting would be to change the work - obviously if i delete the webartery copy of something because I already got it on wryting (taking the chance he hasn't sent different versions and one day he may and I'll probably miss it) then i am largely deleting the same thing; yes; but what I mean is that the work exists as a form of intervention... or so it seems to me put it in a channel and you change it; what was ground water accumulating to a river becomes guttered for myself i distinguish between jesse glass, with whom i never seem to agree, and john tranter who seems to me sane and reasonable; but i take alan's point; and i wld not consider channeling either because tho NO LOONIES is a sound rule, we'll never agree who's on the list of loonies i'm not sure what langpo is now. i'm not sure if i ever write it. how do you know? was that a dirty thought i had just then? or a clean thought? sure, clear out dead writing, if you can identify it. my garden is full of weeds and they're flowering spectacularly just now. how do you identify it? Lawrence, Your garden is a paradise for snails! moans my garden-tidying neighbour,who may dream of a final snailsolution. Well, that's ok then, I have to say; they'll want to stay in paradise, won't they? If I change anything they might go into your garden. Moderation in all swings and roundabouts. i think alan's doing fine regulating himself keep em rolling, alan. i don't tell you enough how often your writing is spot on. L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: 01 August 2002 07:28 Subject: advertising ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:23:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: anyone have experience with Peter Lang publishing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Drake" To: Sent: 01 August 2002 03:32 Subject: anyone have experience with Peter Lang publishing? The late Alaric Sumner, whose papers I am... er... executing, had a piece published by them, a paper he gave at University of Vechta in the late 90s I have not yet looked into the details of the process; but I have had hell's own job getting any response at all from them. Letters and emails are just ignored. I *assume that they must generally be responsive in order to stay in business and I *have *assumed therefore that their reluctance to respond to me is that I want to receive information without offering the prospect of making them money i'll have a look to see if there is anything i havent yet picked up wch might be relevant to your query, but it'll be a week or 2 before i can answer i find it hard to imagine AS coughing up money in such circumstances;he was generous, but not like that! L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 05:46:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: anyone have experience with Peter Lang publishing? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" peter lang is a vanity publisher, as i understand it. At 10:32 PM -0400 7/31/02, R. Drake wrote: >folks, > >anyone on the list have any dealings with Peter Lang publishing? here's the >reason i ask: a friend of mine had her dissertation accepted for publication >by Lang. part of the deal was that she was supposed to pay for typesetting >the book (a service that they happen to provide)... that right there seemed >very odd to me. she then asked me to do the typesetting, and they have been >very difficult to work with, changing specifications and demanding multiple >revisions, to the point where it seems they seem (to me) to be intentionally >sabotaging the project. > >anyway, i was wondering if anyone had any experience with them, similar to >ours or otherwise. also, is it normal for academic publishers to require >payments from their authors? i know times are tough, but we used to call >that "vanity publishing" > >thanks >luigi-bob drake ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 05:54:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: a modest proposal In-Reply-To: <3D48D4F1.57DB872D@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" much as i appreciate attempts at mediation, part of the fun of sondheim on poetix is the randomness and juxtaposition, the impurity of the list as it conveys ads, self-promotions, announcements, jokes, queries, poems, discussion, etc. i'd hate to see one of its prize features eliminated...i have several friends who keep a sondheim file out of the poetics postings... At 11:28 PM -0700 7/31/02, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: >I like that idea > >Chris (trying to coast).... > >"Susan M. Schultz" wrote: > >> Since Alan S wants to publish his poems via email and since many on this >>list seem unwilling simply to ignore him, why not start up a Sondheim >>list? Occasional advertisements, with samples, could appear on poetics >>but otherwise those who want Sondheim can get him, and those who do not >>would not. >> >> >> Susan (trying to be pacific) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:37:14 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM Subject: Re: advertising Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii # sure, clear out dead writing, if you can identify it. my garden is full of # weeds and they're flowering spectacularly just now. how do you identify it? # # Lawrence, Your garden is a paradise for snails! moans my garden-tidying # neighbour,who may dream of a final snailsolution. Well, that's ok then, I # have to say; they'll want to stay in paradise, won't they? If I change # anything they might go into your garden. As the gardening genius Alan Titchmarsh says, "weeds are flowers where you don't want them". Snails often mean that that georgeous bird the thush is in near attendance. It's good to see a thrush perched on a stone cracking open a snail for food. # Moderation in all swings and roundabouts. i think alan's doing fine # regulating himself # # keep em rolling, alan. i don't tell you enough how often your writing is # spot on. Agree full-heartedly. I love alan's work. Roger ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 07:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: periodic outbursts In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > this is quite fascinating. of course i am a die-hard sondheim fan, but i > find these periodic outbursts very interesting; what buttons is he pushing? > something about sexuality? an investment in the "well-crafted poem" that > is threatened by the nonstop outpouring? fear of abjection? of language > as a bodily fluid? Maria, It may be quite fascinating, but it's hardly a new thing in the history of literature for a writer to provoke "outbursts" of critical opposition. Why does anybody review anything negatively? What are they afraid of? One might always psychoanalyze. One might always say, as Alan does in "contamination," "your hatred extends to anything you do not comprehend." The good news for Alan Sondheim is that many of the greatest poets/artists have met with extreme critical adversity in their lifetimes. Remember how Whitman was slammed in the Atlantic? http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/classrev/whitman.htm Of course, great imposters have also met with adversity, and rightly so. I'm not sure why any of this has to end up with suggestions that Alan take his work elsewhere. I've defended his right to post in the past, and recently, and here again; Alan, post away. Stick with your game plan. Cheers, -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: advertising In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 7/31/02 11:28 PM, Alan Sondheim at sondheim@panix.com wrote: > Personally I'd rather see MORE poetry on this list than advertising, and a > hell of a lot LESS talk about langpo when it comes to poetics. Or maybe we > should start say an exciting list dealing with pop art as the lastest > thing? I agree.. whats the saying lets see the stick before the foot. the crime on the post. > > Let's clean this list - turn it into Kristeva's clean and proper body. The > langpo boys and poets can take over. Dead meat. Dead writing. Long live > it. Safe academic stuff. Fuck it all that we have some sexual/"ultra- > violent" work here. Better to write abstract. > on, please, dont even suggest it . . . I say let the drit fly as it may, but please don't put up any of those massive rule signs in the playground. to many "ifs" always spoil the pie. on with the games. unless we see this as serious as say . . . the distruction of our enviorment, threat of war, stupidity in the U.S. of amerikan'a head full of cotton for a war lord, and a massive homeless problem... oh yes... lets not forget HIV and racism, classim, sexism, and good old fashion gendercetrism for the mildly inclinded keep the ideas of segragation going. so maybe your are right Alan.. lets keep the crime sence clean and not boody our toes. kari edwards -- Check out: http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirteen/ShampooIssueThirteen.html http://poetz.com/fir/may02.htm http://poetz.com/fir/feb02.htm http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:15:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: night mother In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit night mother in the nubian eight, I am the night buoy asking to sink in the mother. I am the buoy asking to sink in the night mother. I snag another mother. I am the nubian night mother in the night mother. in the nubian eight, aghast I sing the night. I sing the night I am the buoy asking to sink in nubian eight, aghast night mother. in the buoy I am the night. in the night I am sinking in the mother I am the night. I am the night mother. kari edwards -- Check out: http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirteen/ShampooIssueThirteen.html http://poetz.com/fir/may02.htm http://poetz.com/fir/feb02.htm http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:48:27 -0500 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: Re: advertising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread reminds me of an incident which happen on my way home from the Avant Garde Festival in Columbus OH this last weekend. On the drive home my friend & I passed thru the town of Wauseka IN. As we were entering town the first thing you see is a giant full sized billboard with 3 ft high letters which said "Any public displays of affection are illegal. You will be arrested." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:10:39 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Re: Attacks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a very irregular contributor to the list, I thought I'd chip in with a few comments. Like others on the list I too keep Alan's poems in a special folder (The Alan Sondheim Folder), which I like to read while listening to Stockahausen CD's -- somehow the two make sense together..I'm especially impressed with the sexual content as not many male writers are bold enough to do this, and do it well. I don't get the code at all, as I really don't have that much interest in it.. and, yes, the delete key is close at hand when they come though.. If anyone would like to take the time to explain them (or code) to me, I'm a very open learner! As for the flaming and attacks, well, I enjoy those too. I think they are unavoidable when a list that deals with any art for artist (we love poetry, right? that's why were here).. At least the flamers have some passion . When my work get attacked in such a way (as it was just last week ), I find that in the end I've learned something.. even if it is how to defend my work! I do wish I had more time to post, but alas, with an office job in Tokyo, writing isn't getting enough attention as is. - Ben ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:39:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: john chris jones Subject: Re: Attacks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Here are some appreciations and republications (in colour!) of Alan Sondheim's writings online: http://www.softopia.demon.co.uk/2.2/digital_diary_02.07.18.html His reactions, and those of others, to the attacks of 9/11 appear at: http://www.softopia.demon.co.uk/2.2/digital_diary_18sept01.html Alan's website appears with others I like at : http://www.softopia.demon.co.uk/2.2/websites_i_like.html ...to me his writings are not things to be attacked but changes to be pondered in the collective mind, or human circumstance... what he does is surely conditioned by more of reality than most of us can respond to so directly...? john chris ////////////////////////////// These urls are from my website: http://www.softopia.demon.co.uk (digital diary and other experiments in public writing) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:13:46 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Re: advertising In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> lets not [..] keep the ideas of segregation going Marcus Garvey did say... Actually this is one of the biggest pushes in the IT-IS-world, to separate content from style, to get at the-thing-itself, as it were (omen), and allow individual consumption to produce 'the way' in which... which is to say I'm all for separations ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:48:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: advertising Comments: To: dtv@mwt.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could David or any of the other participants at the Fest give us a little report? Thank you. Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: Re: advertising > This thread reminds me of an incident which happen on my way home from the > Avant Garde Festival in Columbus OH this last weekend. On the drive home my > friend & I passed thru the town of Wauseka IN. As we were entering town the > first thing you see is a giant full sized billboard with 3 ft high letters > which said "Any public displays of affection are illegal. You will be > arrested." > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:28:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: advertising In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I think Kari is touching on a point of discomfort (for me) in this discussion--and that is the rise of the anti-body subtext. For some of us, subverting standard notions of body perceptions/categorizations is important in the politics of our work. The avant-poetryland's repeated dismissing of body/sex/gender as a topic of poetry is enraging--as is being lumped in the same category as straight guys talking dirty. It ain't the same ballgame. Dodie At 6:09 AM -0700 8/1/02, kari edwards wrote: >on, please, dont even suggest it . . . I say let the drit fly as it may, but >please don't put up any of those massive rule signs in the playground. to >many "ifs" always spoil the pie. on with the games. unless we see this as >serious as say . . . the distruction of our enviorment, threat of war, >stupidity in the U.S. of amerikan'a head full of cotton for a war lord, and >a massive homeless problem... oh yes... lets not forget HIV and racism, >classim, sexism, and good old fashion gendercetrism for the mildly inclinded >keep the ideas of segragation going. so maybe your are right Alan.. lets >keep the crime sence clean and not boody our toes. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:34:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Ohio notes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Igor Satanovsky reporting in the wake of =93American Avant-Garde: The Secon= d Wave=94 conference at Ohio State University, Columbus OH: what a great ev= ent! About 50 writers & multimedia artists involved in Concrete, Sound & Vi= sual Poetries, Intertimedia & other experimental unclassifiables came tog= ether for a historic 2 days symposium & exhibition organized by the Ohio Av= ant-luminary John M. Bennett.=20 These are notes on the presentations that I got to see on Saturday, July 27t= h. Since the events took place simulteniously in 2 rooms (plus another room=20= presenting multimedia & taped presentations), I got to see only 1/3 of what=20= was going on. ROOM 327 - RARE BOOKS & MANUSCRIPTS LIBRARY 9:00 - Robert H. Jackson, William S. Burroughs' Influence on Recent Writing One of Burroughs' major collectors. He concentrated on Burroughs' formal in= novations, and influence his writing had on contemporary American fiction: W= illiam Gibson, David Foster Wallace; and Latin American literature - Cortaza= r and Gabriel Garcia Marquez; themes of paranoia in contemporary writing. Ho= wever, i found his overall Burroughs spin to be slightly off. I doubt Burrou= ghs was a great humanist. His major strengh lied in his ability to analyze a= ddiction and its relation to social structures with a clear-eyed anthropolo= gical precision of a junky surgeon, scary and comic at once. There is more t= o be said about that. 9:30 =96 William James Austin, Against Formalism: Experiments with Internali= ty Dr. Bill's poetic tribute to Avant-Garde deconstructed major paradoxes of it= s eternaly vanishing identity, and its relation to form and desire. Great st= uff. I am sure it will be published by somebody soon. 11:30 - Michael Basinski, Aural Concrete Michael Basinski a truly amazing performance. First, he read a manifesto cal= ling on visual poets to find a way to perform their work, and then demonstra= ted possibilities of such approach by vocalizing all possible associations c= onnected with his visual poems. If not for a strictly enforced half-hour cap= on all presentation, I had a feeling he could go on and on, smoothly mining= all visual, semantic and sound associations from the dense texture of his q= uite funny visuals, made with/from the most "democratic" materials like regu= lar markers and cereal boxes. 1:00 - Geoffrey Gatza, Tantalum: The Congo War Interpreted Through Consumer=20= Acuity Another outstanding act. It was my pleasure to meet Geoffrey, whose very po= litical work is fresh and demonstrates a sense of purpose, putting elements=20= of corpo-speak, langpo and vispo aesthetics to excellent use. Finally, I tho= ught, our generation is making a statement and sets itself apart.=20 3:00 - John M. Bennett, Reading was very entertaining. He played serious attention to sound and read well, c= ombining in his writing elements of mandane surrealism & Joycean infra-verba= l inventiveness. In the end, we heard collaborative pieces for 4 voices with= Kathy Ernst, Scott Holmes & Michael Peters. I sure regret that I could not=20= attend ACA residence at the New Smyrna beach last summer, led by the master=20= resident Richard Kostelanetz.=20 John M. Bennett, Kathy Ernst, Scott Holmes, Michael Peters, Bob Grumman and=20= others went there and collaborated on several interesting projects.=20 Events in ROOM 122 10:00 - Carlos M. Luis, Reading=20 This was my time slot, but by the time I made it downstairs from Mr.Austin= =92s presentation, Carlos Luise began, and I was moved to 10:30. Carlos Lui= se is a Cuban-American artist/ poet and art critic from Miami. His early wr= iting /art was firmly rooted in a surrealist tradition, but eventually he mo= ved away from it to create some unclassifiable art/vispo/poetry all his own,= exuding human warmth that is so enduring in Latin avant-garde. His biling= ual reading reminded me about my 4 years in South Florida and its booming La= tin cultures=92 scene. 10:30 - Igor Satanovsky, The Cutting Edge: Re-Engaging the Canon (slide proj= .) Russian Avant-Garde is in the house! Advantages: loud and armed with a megap= hone. Drawbacks: running our of time. Objectives: to recut the whole Wester= n Canon and make it avant-garde. First results: are in the book: american po= etry (free and how). =91nough said. 11:00 - Jesse Glass, Reading (CD boombox) Jesse has spent the last 10 years in Japan, where he teaches English in Meik= ai University outside Tokio, and blended in to such a degree that he looks r= emarkably Japanese in his manners and body language. I loved his sound piece= s, which have a lot to do with a Japanese white noise scene, and his writing= is all over the map, balancing on the paradoxes of his East/West identity.=20= He also recently co-edited Tokio Literary Anthology. 1:30 - Michael Peters, Wholesale Form: An Attack on the Corporate Form with Text and Sound (powerpoint & boombox) Michael Peters, a manic tall bald guy with long hands and craziest ready-to-= pop blueyes I have ever seen, could be playing mad rock-n-roll Mayakovsky on= off off Broadway. I already met him before thru Richard Kostelanetz (Richar= d got sick at the last moment and could not attend the conference). Michael= =92s opening sound piece was very effective. He used a powerpoint projecti= on, guitar pedals and a mic to create a sonic assault and atmosphere of ser= ious nervous restlessness and paranoia, moving on to dissect means of corpor= ate invasive mental domination. Here was another intelligent energetic int= ermedia presentation, that, like Geoffrey Gatza=92s, had its objectives in s= ight, and went after them ferociously.=20 3:00 - Michael Magazinnik, Soundvisual Poetry in Performance (slide proj.) Mike gave his best performance yet, combining reading with overhead projecti= on of visuals in Russian and English. The highlights included his consonant=20= poetry. I especially liked a piece that incorporated a toy musical box. Wit= h his hands raised and a face split in two by the edge of a projector=92s li= ght, he created an eerie effect of some shamanistic ritual going on.=20 3:30 - Bob Grumman, Doing Long Division in Color (overhead proj.) Here goes another Floridian, who is one of a kind. Bob is known best as a cr= itic for his review column in Small Press Review, but he is also a visual an= d math poet. I have seen some math poetry before, but nothing like Bob=92s w= ork. He specializes in Mathemaku (his hybrid of haiku and math poetry), whic= h he creates by constructing weird division formulas, where instead of numbe= rs we find entities like =93spring=94, =93woods=94 and =93memory.=94 What I=20= most admire about Bob is his ability to pick up the most cliched romantic no= tions and turn them into poetry. Recently, Bob began adding color to his wor= k, and it brought the whole new dimention to it. For example, a blue square=20= represents sky in his Long Divisions, which involve music notations from Bee= thoven. The next logical step for him would be to move into animating his wo= rk and the web is a perfect media for that. Michael Peters, mIEKAL aND, Brandon Barr, David Baratier, Joel Lipman, Jessy= Glass, Geffrey Gatza, Irving Weiss, Jim Leftwich, Scott McLeod, and everyb= ody else =96 it was pleasure meeting & chatting with you! Once again, specia= l thanks to Mr. Bennett for organizing this event; to the Sackners for doing= what they do, and to everybody else who was there - for making it such a bl= ast! Those of you who got to attend other presentations at the conference, p= lease fill in the blanks! i.s. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:45:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This coming weekend I'll be visiting my daughter in Boston. Any poetry events of note tomorrow or Saturday? Back channel would be great. Thanks. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:00:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Ohio notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why are you perpetuating this LIE about Igor Satanovsky being at the Ohio thing, John! It's outrageous! Otherwise, as one of the people you boosted, I had trouble finding anything wrong with it. Seriously, you caught the flavor of it very well. I'm going to do a piece on it, too, so will probably quote you. I noticed a few typos, which I've noted below, but it read well. Thanks for the good words! Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:34 PM Subject: Ohio notes Igor Satanovsky reporting in the wake of "American Avant-Garde: The Second Wave" conference at Ohio State University, Columbus OH: what a great event! About 50 writers & multimedia artists involved in Concrete, Sound & Visual Poetries, Intertimedia TYPO & other experimental unclassifiables came together for a historic 2 days symposium & exhibition organized by the Ohio Avant-luminary John M. Bennett. These are notes on the presentations that I got to see on Saturday, July 27th. Since the events took place simulteniously simultAneously in 2 rooms (plus another room presenting multimedia & taped presentations), I got to see only 1/3 of what was going on. ROOM 327 - RARE BOOKS & MANUSCRIPTS LIBRARY 9:00 - Robert H. Jackson, William S. Burroughs' Influence on Recent Writing One of Burroughs' major collectors. He concentrated on Burroughs' formal innovations, and influence his writing had on contemporary American fiction: William Gibson, David Foster Wallace; and Latin American literature - Cortazar and Gabriel Garcia Marquez; themes of paranoia in contemporary writing. However, i found his overall Burroughs spin to be slightly off. I doubt Burroughs was a great humanist. His major strengh lied in his ability to analyze addiction and its relation to social structures with a clear-eyed anthropological precision of a junky surgeon, scary and comic at once. There is more to be said about that. 9:30 - William James Austin, Against Formalism: Experiments with Internality Dr. Bill's poetic tribute to Avant-Garde deconstructed major paradoxes of its eternaly eternalLy vanishing identity, and its relation to form and desire. Great stuff. I am sure it will be published by somebody soon. 11:30 - Michael Basinski, Aural Concrete Michael Basinski a truly amazing performance. First, he read a manifesto calling on visual poets to find a way to perform their work, and then demonstrated possibilities of such approach by vocalizing all possible associations connected with his visual poems. If not for a strictly enforced half-hour cap on all presentation, I had a feeling he could go on and on, smoothly mining all visual, semantic and sound associations from the dense texture of his quite funny visuals, made with/from the most "democratic" materials like regular markers and cereal boxes. too bad no one videoed all this. I missed Basinski's show 1:00 - Geoffrey Gatza, Tantalum: The Congo War Interpreted Through Consumer Acuity Another outstanding act. It was my pleasure to meet Geoffrey, whose very political work is fresh and demonstrates a sense of purpose, putting elements of corpo-speak, langpo and vispo aesthetics to excellent use. Finally, I thought, our generation is making a statement and sets itself apart. I'd use "THAT sets itself apart" rather than "AND sets itself apart." 3:00 - John M. Bennett, Reading was very entertaining. He played serious attention to sound and read well, combining in his writing elements of mandane surrealism & Joycean infra-verbal inventiveness. wha duh fuck is "infra-verbal?" In the end, we heard collaborative pieces for 4 voices with Kathy Ernst, Scott Holmes & Michael Peters. I sure regret that I could not attend ACA residence at the New Smyrna beach last summer, led by the master resident Richard Kostelanetz. John M. Bennett, Kathy Ernst, Scott Holmes, Michael Peters, Bob Grumman and others went there and collaborated on several interesting projects. Events in ROOM 122 10:00 - Carlos M. Luis, Reading This was my time slot, but by the time I made it downstairs from Mr.Austin's presentation, Carlos Luise LUIS began, and I was moved to 10:30. Carlos Luise ditto is a Cuban-American artist/ poet and art critic from Miami. His early writing /art was firmly rooted in a surrealist tradition, but eventually he moved away from it to create some unclassifiable art/vispo/poetry all his own, exuding human warmth that is so enduring in Latin avant-garde. His bilingual reading reminded me about my 4 years in South Florida and its booming Latin cultures' scene. 10:30 - Igor Satanovsky, The Cutting Edge: Re-Engaging the Canon (slide proj.) Russian Avant-Garde is in the house! Advantages: loud and armed with a megaphone. Drawbacks: running our OUT of time. Objectives: to recut the whole Western Canon and make it avant-garde. First results: are in the book: american poetry (free and how). 'nough said. 11:00 - Jesse Glass, Reading (CD boombox) Jesse has spent the last 10 years in Japan, where he teaches English in Meikai University outside Tokio, and blended in to such a degree that he looks remarkably Japanese in his manners and body language. I loved his sound pieces, which have a lot to do with a Japanese white noise scene, and his writing is all over the map, balancing on the paradoxes of his East/West identity. He also recently co-edited Tokio Literary Anthology. 1:30 - Michael Peters, Wholesale Form: An Attack on the Corporate Form with Text and Sound (powerpoint & boombox) Michael Peters, a manic tall bald guy with long hands and craziest ready-to-pop blueyes I have ever seen, could be playing mad rock-n-roll Mayakovsky on off off Broadway. I already met him before thru Richard Kostelanetz (Richard got sick at the last moment and could not attend the conference). Michael's opening sound piece was very effective. He used a powerpoint projection, guitar pedals and a mic to create a sonic assault and atmosphere of serious nervous restlessness and paranoia, moving on to dissect means of corporate invasive mental domination. Here was another intelligent energetic intermedia presentation, that, like Geoffrey Gatza's, had its objectives in sight, and went after them ferociously. 3:00 - Michael Magazinnik, Soundvisual Poetry in Performance (slide proj.) Mike gave his best performance yet, combining reading with overhead projection of visuals in Russian and English. The highlights included his consonant poetry. I especially liked a piece that incorporated a toy musical box. With his hands raised and a face split in two by the edge of a projector's light, he created an eerie effect of some shamanistic ritual going on. 3:30 - Bob Grumman, Doing Long Division in Color (overhead proj.) Here goes another Floridian, who is one of a kind. Bob is known best as a critic for his review column in Small Press Review, but he is also a visual and math poet. I have seen some math poetry before, but nothing like Bob's work. He specializes in Mathemaku (his hybrid of haiku and math poetry), which he creates by constructing weird division formulas, where instead of numbers we find entities like "spring", "woods" and "memory." What I most admire about Bob is his ability to pick up the most cliched romantic notions and turn them into poetry. Recently, Bob began adding color to his work, and it brought the whole new dimention DISIMENKTION to it. For example, a blue square represents sky in his Long Divisions, which involve music notations from Beethoven. The next logical step for him would be to move into animating his work and the web is a perfect media for that. Michael Peters, mIEKAL aND, Brandon Barr, David Baratier, Joel Lipman, Jessy Glass, Geffrey Gatza, Irving Weiss, Jim Leftwich, Scott McLeod, and everybody else - it was pleasure meeting & chatting with you! Once again, special thanks to Mr. Bennett for organizing this event; to the Sackners for doing what they do, and to everybody else who was there - for making it such a blast! Those of you who got to attend other presentations at the conference, please fill in the blanks! i.s. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: advertising In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > The avant-poetryland's repeated dismissing of body/sex/gender as a > topic of poetry is enraging--as is being lumped in the same category > as straight guys talking dirty. It ain't the same ballgame. Dodie, My term "ultra-pornographic" didn't refer to body/sex/gender subject matter, but to literal pornographic episodes in Sondheim's work. Sex in front of cameras, 'net porn, etc, captured in the linguistic monochrome one comes to associate with Alan's work. There's a possibility you don't remember these episodes, as you would have to *read* the Sondheim poetry rather than simply *gaze at it* or *collect it in a folder*--possibly the poet himself can enlighten us. Also, I don't dismiss any poetry solely on the grounds of it having such content; in fact, it's an integral part of the internet culture Alan's work embodies. Nor do I have a problem with "ultra-violent" art-- The Wild Bunch, for instance. I was only using these descriptive terms in combination with others to capture what I viewed as the essense of Alan's project. By the way, I loved "Contamination," Alan (if you're reading this)-- more like that, please. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:39:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ohio notes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, stop playing with yr spellchecker! You gotta be more spontenious, feel the vibe, animate! let your infra-verbal faculties go! we can edit later. i.s. <> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:28:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Ohio notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, I didn't realize this was a post to the Poetics List. Pardon the in "humor." I was off the Poetics list for over a month, and only got back on a few days ago. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: Re: Ohio notes > Why are you perpetuating this LIE about Igor Satanovsky being at the Ohio > thing, John! It's > outrageous! Otherwise, as one of the people you boosted, I had trouble > finding anything wrong with it. Seriously, you caught the flavor of it very > well. I'm going to do a piece on it, too, so will probably quote you. I > noticed a few typos, which I've > noted below, but it read well. > > Thanks for the good words! Bob > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:34 PM > Subject: Ohio notes > > > Igor Satanovsky reporting in the wake of "American Avant-Garde: The Second > Wave" conference at Ohio State University, Columbus OH: what a great event! > About 50 writers & multimedia artists involved in Concrete, Sound & Visual > Poetries, Intertimedia > > TYPO > > & other experimental unclassifiables came together for a historic 2 days > symposium & exhibition organized by the Ohio Avant-luminary John M. > Bennett. > > These are notes on the presentations that I got to see on Saturday, July > 27th. Since the events took place simulteniously > > > simultAneously > > > in 2 rooms (plus another room presenting multimedia & taped presentations), > I got to see only 1/3 of what was going on. > > ROOM 327 - RARE BOOKS & MANUSCRIPTS LIBRARY > > 9:00 - Robert H. Jackson, William S. Burroughs' Influence on Recent Writing > One of Burroughs' major collectors. He concentrated on Burroughs' formal > innovations, and influence his writing had on contemporary American fiction: > William Gibson, David Foster Wallace; and Latin American literature - > Cortazar and Gabriel Garcia Marquez; themes of paranoia in contemporary > writing. However, i found his overall Burroughs spin to be slightly off. I > doubt Burroughs was a great humanist. His major strengh lied in his ability > to analyze addiction and its relation to social structures with a clear-eyed > anthropological precision of a junky surgeon, scary and comic at once. There > is more to be said about that. > > > 9:30 - William James Austin, Against Formalism: Experiments with Internality > Dr. Bill's poetic tribute to Avant-Garde deconstructed major paradoxes of > its eternaly > > eternalLy > > vanishing identity, and its relation to form and desire. Great stuff. I am > sure it will be published by somebody soon. > > 11:30 - Michael Basinski, Aural Concrete > Michael Basinski a truly amazing performance. First, he read a manifesto > calling on visual poets to find a way to perform their work, and then > demonstrated possibilities of such approach by vocalizing all possible > associations connected with his visual poems. If not for a strictly enforced > half-hour cap on all presentation, I had a feeling he could go on and on, > smoothly mining all visual, semantic and sound associations from the dense > texture of his quite funny visuals, made with/from the most "democratic" > materials like regular markers and cereal boxes. > > too bad no one videoed all this. I missed Basinski's show > > 1:00 - Geoffrey Gatza, Tantalum: The Congo War Interpreted Through Consumer > Acuity > Another outstanding act. It was my pleasure to meet Geoffrey, whose very > political work is fresh and demonstrates a sense of purpose, putting > elements of corpo-speak, langpo and vispo aesthetics to excellent use. > Finally, I thought, our generation is making a statement and sets itself > apart. > > I'd use "THAT sets itself apart" rather than "AND sets itself apart." > > 3:00 - John M. Bennett, Reading > was very entertaining. He played serious attention to sound and read well, > combining in his writing elements of mandane surrealism & Joycean > infra-verbal inventiveness. > > wha duh fuck is "infra-verbal?" > > > In the end, we heard collaborative pieces for 4 voices with Kathy Ernst, > Scott Holmes & Michael Peters. I sure regret that I could not attend ACA > residence at the New Smyrna beach last summer, led by the master resident > Richard Kostelanetz. > John M. Bennett, Kathy Ernst, Scott Holmes, Michael Peters, Bob Grumman and > others went there and collaborated on several interesting projects. > > > Events in ROOM 122 > > 10:00 - Carlos M. Luis, Reading > This was my time slot, but by the time I made it downstairs from Mr.Austin's > presentation, Carlos Luise > > LUIS > > began, and I was moved to 10:30. Carlos Luise > > ditto > > is a Cuban-American artist/ poet and art critic from Miami. His early > writing /art was firmly rooted in a surrealist tradition, but eventually he > moved away from it to create some unclassifiable art/vispo/poetry all his > own, exuding human warmth that is so enduring in Latin avant-garde. His > bilingual reading reminded me about my 4 years in South Florida and its > booming Latin cultures' scene. > > 10:30 - Igor Satanovsky, The Cutting Edge: Re-Engaging the Canon (slide > proj.) > Russian Avant-Garde is in the house! Advantages: loud and armed with a > megaphone. Drawbacks: running our > > OUT > > of time. Objectives: to recut the whole Western Canon and make it > avant-garde. First results: are in the book: american poetry (free and how). > 'nough said. > > 11:00 - Jesse Glass, Reading (CD boombox) > Jesse has spent the last 10 years in Japan, where he teaches English in > Meikai University outside Tokio, and blended in to such a degree that he > looks remarkably Japanese in his manners and body language. I loved his > sound pieces, which have a lot to do with a Japanese white noise scene, and > his writing is all over the map, balancing on the paradoxes of his East/West > identity. He also recently co-edited Tokio Literary Anthology. > > 1:30 - Michael Peters, Wholesale Form: An Attack on the Corporate Form > with Text and Sound (powerpoint & boombox) > Michael Peters, a manic tall bald guy with long hands and craziest > ready-to-pop blueyes I have ever seen, could be playing mad rock-n-roll > Mayakovsky on off off Broadway. I already met him before thru Richard > Kostelanetz (Richard got sick at the last moment and could not attend the > conference). Michael's opening sound piece was very effective. He used a > powerpoint projection, guitar pedals and a mic to create a sonic assault > and atmosphere of serious nervous restlessness and paranoia, moving on to > dissect means of corporate invasive mental domination. Here was another > intelligent energetic intermedia presentation, that, like Geoffrey Gatza's, > had its objectives in sight, and went after them ferociously. > > 3:00 - Michael Magazinnik, Soundvisual Poetry in Performance (slide proj.) > Mike gave his best performance yet, combining reading with overhead > projection of visuals in Russian and English. The highlights included his > consonant poetry. I especially liked a piece that incorporated a toy > musical box. With his hands raised and a face split in two by the edge of a > projector's light, he created an eerie effect of some shamanistic ritual > going on. > > 3:30 - Bob Grumman, Doing Long Division in Color (overhead proj.) > Here goes another Floridian, who is one of a kind. Bob is known best as a > critic for his review column in Small Press Review, but he is also a visual > and math poet. I have seen some math poetry before, but nothing like Bob's > work. He specializes in Mathemaku (his hybrid of haiku and math poetry), > which he creates by constructing weird division formulas, where instead of > numbers we find entities like "spring", "woods" and "memory." What I most > admire about Bob is his ability to pick up the most cliched romantic notions > and turn them into poetry. Recently, Bob began adding color to his work, and > it brought the whole new dimention > > DISIMENKTION > > > to it. For example, a blue square represents sky in his Long Divisions, > which involve music notations from Beethoven. The next logical step for him > would be to move into animating his work and the web is a perfect media for > that. > > Michael Peters, mIEKAL aND, Brandon Barr, David Baratier, Joel Lipman, Jessy > Glass, Geffrey Gatza, Irving Weiss, Jim Leftwich, Scott McLeod, and > everybody else - it was pleasure meeting & chatting with you! Once again, > special thanks to Mr. Bennett for organizing this event; to the Sackners for > doing what they do, and to everybody else who was there - for making it such > a blast! Those of you who got to attend other presentations at the > conference, please fill in the blanks! > > i.s. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:44:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: new DOC(K)S Comments: To: webartery@egroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT New DOC(K)S out. What's Your War. Seems apropos to recent posts. Why not write rather than bicker and bemoan? any responses also to 'poasis' - the word, not the book. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:08:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <000501c238d6$5e32a790$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, In light of recent discussions on the list, I think it would be nice if everyone posted a poem. A little poem anthology. A poem a day project. A publication opportunity. Art. Promotion. Advertising, Baby. So, who's first? Best, JGallaher J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:30:41 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EVERYBODY should send two poems every day for the next month at least.... isn't that what AS wants? would that all the world were profits etc.... oops I meant prophets (AS don't like advertising he advertises....) c J Gallaher wrote: > Well, > > In light of recent discussions on the list, I think it would be nice if > everyone posted a poem. > > A little poem anthology. A poem a day project. A publication > opportunity. Art. Promotion. Advertising, Baby. > > So, who's first? > > Best, > JGallaher > > J Gallaher > > Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: new DOC(K)S MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" > any responses also to 'poasis' - the word, not the book. > responses to the book as well...one of my favorites of this past year...pierre's work receives less attention than it deserves... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:00:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <3D499A70.54E00555@earthlink.net> from "Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino" at Aug 01, 2002 01:30:41 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dodnt't thinkfolks shd sendpoeoms or puthem on POETicxs. expsesCially if w/ouoter propergrammar or spellinjgor Synaxta or SCuCH! I'm against it ^& ifanyone doesn it not me &besides i DOnT! write property anymore so if anyonesends a poems to the LIST it won'wt be me! or soemone -- dgolumbi@panix.com David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:06:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: advertising In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm not sure if "straight guys talking dirty" refers to me, but if so, I think it's way off the mark. The camera materials refer to videos - which have been shown at places ranging from the Electronic Poetry Conf. to the Bass Museum in Miami to Millennium here in New York. The work's never been taken as pornographic, nor was it meant to be; it _does_ analyze sexuality, desire, the break- down of language in relation to both, and the body as site of inscription. Net.porn is also very different - you can sense that either from the spam out there or just by going to newsgroups like alt.sex or alt.sex.bondage (I assume they're still running). My work deals with depression and abjection - hopefully not debasement - and with anomie and arousal as well, but it's not arousing by all accounts (nor is it intended to me). It hardly leads to masturbation. I'm fascinated by the possible polarities of the body - on one hand as flesh, as substance - and on the other - as language /site of language. Alan On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Aaron Belz wrote: > > The avant-poetryland's repeated dismissing of body/sex/gender as a > > topic of poetry is enraging--as is being lumped in the same category > > as straight guys talking dirty. It ain't the same ballgame. > > Dodie, > > My term "ultra-pornographic" didn't refer to body/sex/gender subject matter, > but to literal pornographic episodes in Sondheim's work. Sex in front of > cameras, 'net porn, etc, captured in the linguistic monochrome one comes to > associate with Alan's work. There's a possibility you don't remember these > episodes, as you would have to *read* the Sondheim poetry rather than simply > *gaze at it* or *collect it in a folder*--possibly the poet himself can > enlighten us. > > Also, I don't dismiss any poetry solely on the grounds of it having such > content; in fact, it's an integral part of the internet culture Alan's work > embodies. Nor do I have a problem with "ultra-violent" art-- The Wild > Bunch, for instance. I was only using these descriptive terms in > combination with others to capture what I viewed as the essense of Alan's > project. > > By the way, I loved "Contamination," Alan (if you're reading this)-- more > like that, please. > > -Aaron > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:17:12 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: POETS CORNERED In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Dongahy has resigned from his post as chairman of the Forward Panel. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:20:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sympathy for Grades K through 8 I hate to use the word / "Everlasting" to describe it: menace. / I cheated a lot. I stole / That car of yours and / Kicked my way into movies. / Your parents were killed. / I can't say it wasn't me. / Fell in love with memoir / Also my own sob story. I / jerked off to Kafka. Books were / Stolen from alternating bookstores. / Cream did not rise. / Guns don't kill. That's / Bullets, remember them? While / You were parking your / Girlfriend was stripped and pleased. / On the internet I find / Girls I like: flat and colorful. / I follow broken links / Home. It's a place even you'll / like. Don't worry: she / Snores. She can barely wait. / To be held inside force / Fields, picking your super-poisons. / Be glad we split up atoms / for good. They're such a tease. Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:45:07 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: my contribution to world literature In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Important Things It’s so difficult to be serious about love or death with so many people dying everywhere. Look! They’re dropping like flies, falling, not getting up. Be careful about making jokes. The people next door are always kissing—is this love? It seems perfectly normal to me. Art reflects our deepest concerns, which may explain the paintings of food. They’re called “still-life.” To be still-born is awful, more awful for the birther than the birthed. We love what’s a part of us. In other countries, people die all the time. Not so here. The milk in the fridge expires. Criminals “go bad.” One usually goes bad at an early age— a childhood without love may cause aberrant behavior later on. My sex life is unspectacular. This fact has little to do with love. My love life is, in fact, great. Loving cable television and food too much can result in obesity, laziness, the loss of a certain sensual acuity. People who are comfortable w/ their bodies have better sex. One need not be a model or an athlete. Two of my grandparents died on the same day, six years apart. It was funny-strange, not funny-haha. “What thou lovest best remains,” wrote a fascist, some say crazy, little man from Idaho. Is it possible to love what can’t love back? I love coffee. I love Scotch. I love a girl with long brown hair. Some people fall in love w/ inanimate objects. This is called a fetish, and isn’t always harmful. Types of love: platonic, agape, eros, homesexual, heterosexual, homosocial, old pals, paternal, maternal, fraternal. Types of death: by fire, by gunfire, by excessive bleeding, by suicide, by heart failure, by heartbreak. The new taxonomy: broad legal pad; divide into two sections with a line; love on one side; death on the other. Everything important is essentially sexual. Sex is unique in the way it fabulously fence-sits. It can’t decide. On the legal pad, sex is written sideways on the line. Lines can also be borders, e.g. the space between breast and belly. I told my best friends I’d be dead by 40. I’ve got a few years. At my wake, I hope everyone is in love. I hope people get laid. The love of poetry is essentially useless except that it keeps some of us from ending our lives (and loves) too soon. There are some people (called hippies) who love trees and animals more than people. How odd! People in love disgust me—they’re always making faces and baby voices and they look so smug. When I was a soldier, I thought about killing people. I never got the chance. I wonder what I missed? My friend Ezra is in love w/ an English Professor. She studies “great literature” written by dead men. The funniest things are also the saddest. Nabokov knew this— I can’t help but laugh at the birds. It’s odd that one can buy pleasure. “Self-indulgent, solipsistic, Doesn’t communicate to anyone.” When those planes hit those towers and everything fell, a lot of people died. It wasn’t particularly funny. “Arugula” means “rocket” in Italian. Italian is the language of Lovers. Dante only found love in death. A close poet friend of mine (a girl, a beauty) has never read the Divine Comedy— What’s so funny about love and death? It’s fucking hilarious! The kids are laughing! The goats are laughing! The people you love, alive and dead, are laughing! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:07:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <3D494EFF.7505.131C144E@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm not "publishing" this here--I'm just offering it, sharing it--I wrote it at some point this past spring after being online and being really happy about all my cool poet friends that I have here in cyberspace--so this one goes out to you, Jim, and to John G, and to Alan, and Maria D, and all of you--peace out, y'all-- Arielle ------ being with all of you here’s to an oh blow it out that comes from joy that organ in the lost and found of the bodily from that pink and ribbed sepulchre of a trumpet like a little baby elephant’s lorica ear like a flower giving lip look, it’s all dewy! so lavished am I to be in this get-down company where we’re all dancing away our fists feel it? do you have the beat now? it goes la la crazy in love with pigment with the edge of stairs with a plastic lemon la la the world’s got me on a string because I’m the kite it’s been known to happen and now back to the dewy corolla we’re frenching as we hustle the airwaves in the disco of starry notions __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: fall courses: some suggestions wanted MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Next term, I will be teaching three undergraduate open-enrollment courses online and one continuing education course online. English 239: Women in Literature English 240: Film and Literature English 133A: Creative Writing: Poetry (readings in film and poetry) Surrealism / Writing Three are available for UC credit. The West LA CC classes are a mere $33 + an online fee and begin labor day; UCLA's poetry workshop is their first available for credit to be offered online, it begins later; the surrealism course is Otis continuing ed's first online and it is going to be a lot of fun because we're doing a dada cabaret, surrealist ball, and happening. I have a little anxiety over the Film and Literature course as I just put it together in two hours this afternoon. Right now it is focussing on genre and adaptation: I am open to suggestions, and have a syllabus I can send. Note it is not "Film as Literature." I would be particularly interested in comedy -- my mind is blank. I did find some wonderful Marx Brothers scripts online, though. Thanks, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net P.S. This should be particularly humorous to those who know me, as I am not particularly fond of movie-going and I swore I would never teach full time as an adjunct. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 14 (For/(In sale.)/posting.) My/The place/poster is/peels in/for a/five collection/looks of/upon landscape/extraction sounds,/procedures, bent/hammered windows,/panels, piles/pinches of/of junk,/crusts, and/or godawful/oxidant people/clouds contained/extruded by/through the/no storefront/reason. Random/Extant shelves/selections group/narrow on/down the/some harsh/used curb/ideas to/in implicate/repeating capricious/repeated lines/mutters and/or invisible/orienting sounds/aphasias. I/None am/is generalized/charged to/to write/explain this/me with/in anonymous/bending faces,/arms, reflections,/swigs, and/or an/a arbitrary/fallen rotting/paper fish/memory named/called "Miserable"/"Forgotten". (Inquire/(Exceed within.)/without). Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 03:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This Is Not A poem Screamed tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:15:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom--please give your daughter my best wishes. Is she in college now? I remember that snowy visit my daughter and I made. Margaret is 20 now, and trying to make her name in Hollywood. I hope you and family are well and pleasantly occupied for at least some hours each day. Or all! David -----Original Message----- From: Tom Beckett To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Boston This coming weekend I'll be visiting my daughter in Boston. Any poetry events of note tomorrow or Saturday? Back channel would be great. Thanks. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Awake With Your Hatred For This Poetry Story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Awake With Your Hatred For This Poetry Story "I'm others, perhaps they'll hate me." Yeah, you hate me. I hate you. Crawl for me. Crawl for me. I hate me. You hate me. I'll do anything you say. You'll do anything I say. You hate memory, despise it, not the memory of words and language, already hate me. I love you as one loves a human being, but I do not want to belong to anything. Teachers hate me. Bosses hate me. To know me is to hate me. I walk in and say, give me a job, I'll whore for you. I'm others, perhaps they'll hate me. I turn on this machine praying for excitement - say it over and over again. There's sense on the other side. I hate me. Down in Miami they hate me, they put my image on walls and scratch; to deal with this stay away. I'm full of poison; you'll hate me when you are asleep. Nothing comes. Maybe you are awake and hate me. I don't know. I hope not. I wouldn't want you to hate me. But I am awake totally, sometimes even more than that. Some of my friends end up hating me, hating me and maybe I deserve it, difficulty no excuse. You hate me. I don't know. I hope not. I wouldn't want you to hate me. But I am awake totally, sometimes even more than that. Some of my friends end up hating me, hating me and maybe I deserve it, difficulty no excuse. You hate memory, despise it, not the memory of words and language, already hate me. I hate me. I don't know. I hope not. I wouldn't want you to hate me. I turn on this machine praying for excitement - say it over and over again. There's sense on the other side. I hate you. Crawl for me. I hate me. I hate me. I turn on this machine praying for excitement - say it over and over again. There's sense on the other side. I hate me. Bosses hate me. I hate me. To know me is to hate me. I turn on this machine praying for excitement - say it over and over again. There's sense on the other side. I hate me. I walk in and say, give me a job, I'll whore for you. I'm others, perhaps they'll hate me. But I am awake totally, sometimes even more than that. Trust me I'm awake. Sam, I think about the message I left you when Mary left you. Sam, she trusted me. We didn't do anything. Why didn't you come by and see what what going on? Nothing was. You shouldn't have stayed away. You shouldn't have come back that night either. That changed everything. Mary's never coming home now. How could she? You broke everybody's trust. Was awake in the middle of the night. Al Wilson called. I went over his place. The hall light was on, there was shit everywhere. I mean human shit, covering the floor, the walls, the stairs, everything. I banged on his door. What the hell's going on I said. The guy's been here, he said, the guy who killed all those doctors. He thought I had drugs. Crazy junkie. You gotta stay with me he said. Al's place smelled like hell. Garbage everywhere, his clothes falling off him. Had one set all the time. That was Al. He ran out the back door to call with the guy screaming at the front. Forgot a dime for the phone, ran back in, ran out again. That's when I showed up. I don't remember him playing guitar that night. It was way before Canned Heat. He was country all the way. That was Al. He trusted me. _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Subject: Re: Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With all the Attacks, Advertising, Modest Proposal, etc. =20 I still think you are cool. There has been more than enough = explication. Yeah, listserves need to meter out the temperament and = venue and it has its place. We all know this, whether we enjoy or not. = Just saying, I have counted the ways, even if I can't/won't/ take the = time to type them. ---------- Laura http://laurable.com I got ear candy. Give us a listen. Poetry Audio Links Over 450 poets and 2,750 audio links ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: Poem > Sympathy for Grades K through 8 >=20 > I hate to use the word / "Everlasting" to describe it: menace. / I = cheated a > lot. I stole / That car of yours and / Kicked my way into movies. / = Your > parents were killed. / I can't say it wasn't me. / Fell in love with = memoir > / Also my own sob story. I / jerked off to Kafka. Books were / Stolen = from > alternating bookstores. / Cream did not rise. / Guns don't kill. = That's / > Bullets, remember them? While / You were parking your / Girlfriend was > stripped and pleased. / On the internet I find / Girls I like: flat = and > colorful. / I follow broken links / Home. It's a place even you'll / = like. > Don't worry: she / Snores. She can barely wait. / To be held inside = force / > Fields, picking your super-poisons. / Be glad we split up atoms / for = good. > They're such a tease. >=20 > Jim Behrle >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 04:26:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/2/02 1:07:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dcmb@SONIC.NET writes: > Tom--please give your daughter my best wishes. Is she in college now? I > remember that snowy visit my daughter and I made. Margaret is 20 now, and > trying to make her name in Hollywood. > I hope you and family are well and pleasantly occupied for at least some > hours each day. Or all! David > ----- David, Mischa's married now and in graduate school. I remember that snowy visit too. Let me know when Margaret is doing something that I might be able to see. Best, Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:06:37 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Lives of the Poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, people have suggested that we all start sending our poems to the list, as a few among the brethren regularly do. Why not? Here's one of mine, somewhat fugitive now, and written over a quarter of a century ago. It's a little nerdy and far too "sixties", but I think it can take the cruel critical gaze of the Buffalo Rangers. And if anyone can provide a complete and workable verbal description of the non-slip climber's knot, no pictures or gestures allowed, I'd be grateful. __________________________ Lives of the Poets (prose poem) Poets are very much the same, thought they differ greatly. The same in their craft though they differ in that too, being not at all alike in their approach to their image of themselves and what they think they are capable of, handling this craft, and even carrying parts of it into the future for the use of new generations. It's like developing the diesel engine, I guess, and discovering years later that all that sweat and toil found its way not into beautiful limousines but into dirty trucks, and to realise that the drivers are mostly dirty too must be quite a blow; so in that aspect it's like being an automotive engineer working his way up a blind alley full of diesel fumes. There are, no doubt, young poets who start out as old men ready to do 'a good day's work' and who are prepared to rest content with that little amount of primitive satisfaction; thus they are seen always as old men who would be wise and brimming with kissy certainties. They fall into a 'stance' early, and seldom become any less rigid; these we can do without, though they do have their uses on a cold winter's evening by the fireside when we are a little tired of life and all its niggling puzzles, and want to find the cat old and comfortable as much as the occasional book of 'verse' which we are kind enough to read, and happy enough to receive, frosty evenings being what they are and old men often being warm and friendly, and thus they are also like doormats full of well-known and comfortable dust. Then there are young poets on the make, and often they do indeed make things, being little more than a blend of stage impresario and greedy kid, and they need to find something to sell, and they do get it or make it or imitate something like it, and because of the wheeling and dealing they are so good at they often end up in politics which is where they should have begun, except they leave the sky of poetry tainted with their smudge, and that takes a lot to wipe it clean again, and sometimes the atmosphere is never clean. We should leave these fish alone, but we cannot ignore them as thoroughly as we should, for it is part of their nature to be ubiquitous and coming up at you in all directions. And further, components of these fellows creep to the surface in other types of poets; perhaps this is the most important reason not to ignore them altogether. So to paint a fuller picture of this seedy alley it is best to abandon the approach of using 'categories', and their gluey labels, because one fish will jump out of his bag into another's and eat all the bait. The advertising agencies will quote Confucius to you, and we had better listen: a picture is more effective than a thousand words, for example, when trying to get across the idea of the non-slip climbers' knot. Here, then, is the picture of the perfect Poet. He is young, though not for long. He writes all day and most of the night, but only for a couple of weeks at a time, as the effort tires his inspiration and he soon falls into alcoholism. Later, just before the fashion is about to get off the ground, he tries other drugs, but only because they may be of use to him. They are not of use to him nor to his poetry, which has begun to grow by now, numbering somewhere in the hundreds. This is where he has to grapple with several problems other than his own ability to write, for he has achieved that quite well, and there is much more to be done with his new equipment. So the Poet begins to worry about lots of things and that is where we must leave him. That was not much of a Lives of the Poets, but never mind, there are plenty of others, though their disadvantage in this context is that they very much resemble the story you have just heard, so there is little use repeating them. The Beautiful Children, after all, never existed; and it is a waste of good salt water to weep for them and their impossible Love. -- John Tranter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:54:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: posting announcements to the list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I suppose we all have our preferences on what we would like to see on this list, but just as valuable as the posts of the type I think ought to be posted is the fact of what is posted. In any case, this list has always encouraged the posting of announcements for publications, web sites, and  readings and there is nothing more useful than those posts nor anything more fundamental to the founding mission of the list. Call them advertisement if you like, but if the product in question is poetry edited or written by a member of the list, or readings organized or given by list members, then I want more of that not less. One of the great advantages of the listserv format is that it provides an inexpensive way for participants to exchange information about publications and performances. This is not a secondary function, a form of questionable "self-promotion", but the very heart of what this list is for.

I also always appreciate lists of recommended reading (books or on web).

Charles Bernstein

 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:08:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK then, let's join in the play. This is a poem of mine that I actually like, full of smoky rhetoric but expressing the impasse I feel, of something about to happen and not happening. Best Dave Wants Happen Amulet The moon is heavy with the full. Broken cloud, copper, smoky, aches across it. A smell of burnt powder, waste, and the loosening stones of an ancient pile, grey, its pale turretwork of embattlements, stand inviolate bar the crackle of a leaf turning, air's yearning, the remote invisible sentry's tramp and about, and a concentration amounting to a mind. That is to say the air's mind, the not-yet, the nuclear constellations being born behind the eyes. The time, delicate as a girl's waist, or a boy's, sidles by the watch like a breath walking, in this almost apotheosis of the dark. An owl hatched out of a storybook hoots at identity, fur scent blood, and a yew creaks as if a thought's mass alighted. Something's about, turns, and a black imprint, a negative, a prince of all shadows, forms, all behind scenes, childers to be seen, of a crowd's heads, a gaggle agog a heard of eyes. It is time to descend, prince, you have risen to come down, speak, ghost, from your high abstracted precipice, your speech-plinth. Focus, prince, grasp. While the black feathers of the raven ruffle, ready to ply inly, and the night-tree winces at your weight, your firstwords landing: David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:38:52 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Understanding User Experience: Literary Analysis meets HCI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Literary Analysis meets HCI workshop - London Deadline: 9 August 2002 Source: UN, 15 July 2002 Submitted by Ann Light Understanding User Experience: Literary Analysis meets HCI is a one-day workshop at South Bank University, London on 3rd September 2002, as part of the HCI2002 conference. You are invited to participate in an interactive workshop exploring the potential contribution of approaches from literary and cultural studies to interaction design. With the confluence of computing and communications technology and the deeper penetration of computers into our everyday lives, purely functional construals of human interaction are limiting progress in our understanding of interaction design. In today's world, interaction design is as much about fun, entertainment, community and identity it as it is about work, tasks and goals. This is reflected in recent concerns to contrast usability and user experience and to analyse such uniquely human characteristics such as trust and loyalty and identity. The aim of this workshop is to bring together researchers who are actively exploring the application of new metaphors, models and approaches from literary or cultural studies to interaction design as well as those who have a specific interest in these possibilities. The latter group may include researchers in cultural studies interested in this application area or developers of interactive artefacts, such as games or multimedia, where these approaches have clear application. The workshop's objectives are to begin to develop a research agenda for HCI practitioners interested in these issues and to help to establish an active research community. Literary analysis covers a very broad range of potentially relevant topics, for example: * Genre theory provides us with a potentially valuable way of characterising the relationship between user and artefact in a way that orients us towards experience and expectation as key components of user satisfaction. * Reception theory views the reader as an active interpreter of texts who forges meaning on the basis of her personal, social and historical context. * Dialogism gives us a way of approaching interaction as a perspectival and creative process. * Narrative is central in many approaches to understanding human activity and interaction. * Deconstructionism is one approach to the analysis of texts and artifacts that may have analytical value in HCI. The workshop will be based around position paper presentations and facilitated and focused discussions. Each participant will be asked to prepare a response to another position paper and to facilitate discussion around it. This pre-workshop activity will be critical to the success of the event and all participants should be prepared to take an active part. If you are interested in participating in the workshop please submit a position paper of no more than 4 A4 pages explaining your interest in this area and/or summarising any work you have previously undertaken in this field. Your position paper should indicate how you consider literary analysis can contribute to HCI (or indeed problems with this approach) and what you consider to be the most important research issues in this area. Position papers should be sent to Peter Wright (). Successful applicants will be notified soon after August 10th, together with details of the paper they are required to respond to. A discussion web site will also be provided at that time. The outcomes of the workshop will be disseminated at the conference by the production of a poster and it is hoped that some or all of the position papers will be developed into contributions for a journal special issue. Organisers: Peter Wright (University of York) Janet Finlay (Leeds Metropolitan University) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:41:38 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Poetry and "The Net" In-Reply-To: <004401c23a1d$5deef840$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all.... I am thinking about writing an essay about how the advent of the internet has changed poetry -- if it has changed poetry ... and would be very interested in input from you. There are a number of issues that could/should perhaps be addressed ... among them: - Do you think the internet has changed *how* poetry is written? in what way? - Do you think the internet has changed the way poetry is being published? Does *that* have an effect on how it's written? - Has the greater ease of communication between writers and interested persons changed poetry? - is there anything "new" about the net? This sounds perhaps a bit academic ... I have just started thinking about it - and find that the internet has been there ever since I started writing.... so input from people who remember how it was before would be greatly appreciated. - do you use the internet when creating poetry? (for cut-ups, for instance) - does (communication on) the internet inspire and inform your poetry? (content-wise, format-wise, poetics-wise?) in the same way as "real world" phenomena do? (is there a difference?) - are there any questions YOU think should be asked? (sorry if you have been over this before. If so, I am also interested in pointers to previous discussions) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:01:22 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: Lives of the Poets In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020802190052.00b21848@pop3.norton.antivirus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Here, then, is the > picture of the perfect Poet. > > He is young, though not for long. He writes all day > and most of the night, > but only for a couple of weeks at a time, as the > effort tires his > inspiration and he soon falls into alcoholism. what a shock to see he is still male. (:-)) But alcoholism is so much less becoming in women, is it? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:59:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Lives of the Poets In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020802190052.00b21848@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:06 PM +1000 8/2/02, John Tranter wrote: >Well, people have suggested that we all start sending our poems to the >list, as a few among the brethren regularly do. ... hey i'll be a brethren if you be a sistern... i kinda like being a brether. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:34:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ha ha laughed Sheila thanx too much ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:50:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Lives of the Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not a cistern but rather just a cloaca of despair Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:54:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Babelfish poetry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This babelfish translator is a remarkable thing. Here is my poem written in Russian and translated by Babelfish. Igor S. * in the center the countries from which, alas, although shout, as if you skip although feel sorry, although urine. not to anywhere fall by in no way not to help, by eye prick out night by eye prick out the night in the center the country on which, Alas, although go for a walk, as if you crawl.everywhere complete atas, the best maneuver these are output/yield inward, either warm mercury or warm mercury if thick, then they will release you to the grub, and thin/bad then will break you fast drivers here there is the matter to all and it will reach you, we lose one s head. lyubya, we is mutilated. lyubya who b you not was, mask, beast, or who, you already lost in dominoes -sportlotto, and now you matured, he realized that to what, and it was prepared for war, and it was prepared for the war in the center the country into the floor- clearings cottage.there is concealed peasant, and in the hands.head to himself autopilot, decanted mischievous, itself calls ram its widowed on half a year the peasant does not leave into the court, only drinks home-brew and kicks babtsa, but once they knock. surely pilferer, and roars as bear, and yue syagayet from the porch but axe is sufficient and it shoots at the rest, but it fucks for the eyes and spits in means. because so it is must. it is otherwise cannot, because along the peace/world we roll sliding because sunset presses sunset, because in the snowstorm not to find maskhalat, because we know why you you live: you. snotty louse, you. the snotty louse we live in order to sing through the sewn mouths, we live in order to live with deaths on you, you live in order to become reflection us, at night prick out eye, at night prick out the eye in the center the country from which, alas, you in no way not to help, travelling posts accelerate/disperse signal, not to have time. so to have time, these are pure copper is this pure copper these are the Russian language, but other country, the imposition of lines from which co mes the end. these are Russian speech, but from other side, and mychan'e of the crows above the wrong side of the Neva. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Thomas Barr Subject: Re: Babelfish poetry In-Reply-To: <6AFCB826.3FDBF618.00003139@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII here is igor's message translated from english into french into english into german into english into italian into english into portuguese into english into spanish into english. linebreaks added. there an esperanto here somewhere in the algorithms. Translator This of babelfish is to noteable who. Here my poetry written in russians and of Babelfish translates. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:33:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: 2 new chapbooks from housepress: Cain & Millar, Stefans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable housepress is pleased to announce the reelase of 2 new chapbooks: "Double Helix: Initial Sequence" by Stephen Cain and Jay Millar published in an edition of 70 handbound and numbered copies. $6.00 "Poem formerly known as 'terrorism' and other poems"=20 by Brian Kim Stefans published in an edition of 70 handbound and numbered copies. $4.00 Stephen Cain is the author of "Dyslexicon" (Coach House, 1999) and = "Torontology" (ECW, 2001) as well as numerous chapbooks and braodsides. = His work has appeared in Rampike, Torque, Essex, Open Letter, endNote = and filling Station. He lives in Toronto where he recently completed his = PhD. Jay Millar is a poet, publisher and bookseller. He is the proprietor of = BookThug Press and is the author of "The Ghosts of Jay Millar (Coach = House, 1998) and the forthcoming "Mycological Studies" (Coach House) as = well as innumerable small press editions. Brian Kim Stefans is the author of several books of poetry including = "Gulf" (Object, 1998) and "Free Space Comix" (Roof, 1998) as well as the = forthcoming "Fashionable Noise: on digital poetics" (Atleos). He is the = creator/editor of Arras: new media poetry and poetics (www.arras.net). for more information, or to order copies, please contact: derek beaulieu derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:13:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ohio notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/02 2:21:42 PM, bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: << Why are you perpetuating this LIE about Igor Satanovsky being at the Ohio thing, John! It's outrageous! Otherwise, as one of the people you boosted, I had trouble finding anything wrong with it. Seriously, you caught the flavor of it very well. I'm going to do a piece on it, too, so will probably quote you. I noticed a few typos, which I've noted below, but it read well. Thanks for the good words! Bob >> In my view, the most interesting avant-garde gesture at the affair was Bob Grumman's calling Mike Magazinnik "Igor," and Igor Satanovsky "Mike." Here again (per my article) is an exchange of identities not quite accomplished. Seriously Bob, it was good to meet you. Take care of yourself. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:29:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A poem for pallbearers that you were heavy, heavier than we thought glinting metal, lips closed for swallow, holy wafer for the opened earth. we only lifted you once. what’s left? whisper you should have vanished off the end of a cigarette, up, incense into the steeple. to wish I could have been your friend. were voices, twilights in passing. we 6 should get to lift you from Cambridge St. and bear you back home to Joy. there you are, heavy to every stranger: you were made for all worlds, we’ll not finish carrying tonite “in the glamour of this hour” “alive” for J.W. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:07:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jim, this is touching. And not in a cheap way. I never met Wieners or heard him read, but am moved by tributes to him on the EPC & here on the list, as I am by his work. One objection: the common misspelling of tonight in the penultimate line. Best line: "you should have vanished/ off the end of a cigarette." Oh, and an aside to Chris Stroffolino: you started the ball rolling. Now where is one of ~your~ poems. Cheers, Mark DuCharme >From: Jim Behrle >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Poem >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:29:50 -0400 > >A poem for pallbearers > > >that you were heavy, >heavier than we thought >glinting metal, lips closed >for swallow, holy wafer >for the opened earth. >we only lifted you once. >what’s left? whisper > >you should have vanished >off the end of a cigarette, >up, incense into the steeple. >to wish I could have been >your friend. were voices, >twilights in passing. > >we 6 should get to lift you >from Cambridge St. and bear >you back home to Joy. there you >are, heavy to every stranger: >you were made for all worlds, >we’ll not finish carrying tonite >“in the glamour of this hour” > “alive” > > > > for J.W. > >--Jim Behrle > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:13:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <18c.bc2e11b.2a7bf277@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit . SLAM DUNQUE I parked my Slam Dunque by the curb. I walked up to the waitress of the dunes and asked for a twilight chill, and she cortizone shotte, ye olde Candie Shoppe. SMOCKS "Bella et her smock, wat had paint onnit," grumbled Ferocio. He had been omitting cadavers all night Trial by Ferocio, epoxy nightmare (feminism) SHONDA DID IT REMORSELESSLY Shall we repair to the garage She asked as they sat on the lawn No why not make BLTs he responded without waiting I see a kite She explained Are there other people here He continued interrupting I see a cloud-shaped boat She said She was nearly asleep Among broadleaf weeds He began to get up Claiming he had to pee Shall we catch the rest of the game He reached down to help her up No but by now She was fast asleep . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:17:40 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 15 /(In sale.)/ /The place/ /peels in/ /five collection/ /upon landscape/ /procedures, bent/ /panels, piles/ /of junk,/ /or godawful/ /clouds contained/ /through the/ /reason. Random/ /selections group/ /down the/ /used curb/ /in implicate/ /repeated lines/ /or invisible/ /aphasias. I/ /is generalized/ /to write/ /me with/ /bending faces,/ /swigs, and/ /a arbitrary/ /paper fish/ /called "Miserable."/ /(Exceed within.)/ Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:35:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HUMAN TISSUE / Lawrence Upton and at large keeping tight began rebelling chat her up together full-of-play, friend some big adventure overmuch less able please be cruel I always think of you ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:00:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <18c.bc2e11b.2a7bf277@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT OK, if ever'body's gonna do this, far be it from me to just watch. Here's a poem, written in haste, for this very special occassion. It's meant in fun. -JG A Guidebook to Poetics in Mid Air Complex subjects need complex approaches, we realized, looking over the precipice. Yelling "Help!" is but one option, and one not in keeping with our recent communication problems. Only as we're considered as a whole, Arielle said. She was happy with Andrew and Lawrence and the novels of various countries. What's relevant is whether or not we can fly, she said. After this first outburst, we became reconciled with her departure. Well, that settles that, Millie said. But she left no instructions. At first all was well, and we enjoyed discussing the dullness of genre fiction, and not looking down. But we didn't mean that, we were simply speaking in code. This was no doubt going too far, we thought. Maxine was frowning and looked both displeased and rather cute in the ticker tape. Further complications were introduced by trying to distinguish between Alan and Aaron, though a promising beginning was made by Marjorie and Ron out on the ledge. Of the making of distinctions there can be no end, one of them said. Little specks dwindling, the other added. We're sure going to miss them. Stand still. This's a new rule. Also alternating between standing and falling, that's something, we added. At last there was a faint ice cream truck sounding which cheered us almost as much as the self-help books. Chris said nothing to Rae about the tale of a fateful trip. For his whole life he's kept faith in his ideals, not to mention Armani. We admired that about him. As well as his always looking on the bright side of life, Sheila grumbled. The uniformity of our neighborhoods helps create this, on account of the wind, I think. Unless some clown's messed with it, Charles said. And what a beautiful day. Monkeys and things all around. The fine reverse slant of the blue and white arcs. The appearance of motion. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:11:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LMJ Subject: online poetry class fall 2002 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am going to be teaching an online poetry class through Naropa University this fall--- classes begin August 26th-- If you are interested, please check out the course description and Naropa University's online program at http://www.naropa.edu/distance/courses/WRI539e.htm best, Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:18:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poem In-Reply-To: <002c01c23a53$8b1faa40$751a86d4@overgrowngarden> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" duude. At 7:35 PM +0100 8/2/02, Lawrence Upton wrote: >HUMAN TISSUE / Lawrence Upton > >and at large >keeping tight >began rebelling > >chat her up >together > >full-of-play, friend >some big adventure >overmuch less able > >please be cruel >I always think of you -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:25:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <20020801220756.1264.qmail@web11303.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable COSMIC DEER HEAD FREAKOUT I. A disembodied head and leg poke out of a cart set in imaginary states, conjuring up haunting beings that are half-animal, half-human, like the deer man in deep-space (2) / deer (18) / deer-antlers (1) / deer-camp (1) / deer discussion-panel (2) / disembodied-hand (44).... Watersnake swimming disembodied head stitches seams in the warm pond... No moon: everywhere in the orchard, deer eyes ... Watersnake swimming disembodied head ... butterfly ... droplets and froth, sensing too late the thing which had frightened away the deer ... a past relic and occult phenomenon manifested as a talking, thinking disembodied head. Then he hunts a deer ... you can see his hair waving in the wind as his disembodied head floats.... A disembodied head bobbed furtively into his field of view, drifting in from above. Images: a warrior with a spear holding a circular object above his head; a disembodied head ... the two paintings on the left are of a sun, two planets, and a deer hare being devoured by two falcons ... the noble man, acquiring the feet of a deer. Then the camera is pulled back, and he is seen as a disembodied head.... II. A black prostitute is decapitated by her drug dealer and her disembodied head is continually sensitive to diverse ways of "seeing." There are aspects of deer: 1, pregnancy. 1, bizarre. 1, throat-slitting. 1, decapitation. 1, disembodied-head. 1, jeri-curl-hairstyle.... The strange and disturbing skinned deer floating and singing is replaced by the image of her. The disembodied head spoke to her in a deep, authoritative voice. It's a disembodied head called the Silly Slammer, it's ugly as sin, and when punched it yells "Get a life!" or "Get real!" Also, its eyebrows are purple.... "Lie back and fast asleep, if you could see what I could see ... Drip drop a lovely dream...." She yelps and wipes the blood out of her eyes and pushes ahead, kicking the disembodied head out of her way.... FORGET ME!! THE DEER! Instead, she made her way to the disembodied head of hag C-SNO-62 ... Hag flees thru stormy woods ... C-SNO-63 Grumpy, astride deer.... Then the camera is pulled back, and he is seen as a disembodied head, with the head hung at the same angle it would have on a living deer. The glassy eyes stared at Charlie, chiding him. He jerked the disembodied head.... "Well, my room is much like theirs, only, there was no deer, or disembodied head of any sort present." III. In these episodes, the Principal is shown to be a disembodied head, then later turns out to be Bugs. Mr. Popular wards him off by telling him to hunt some deer. "I've lost various appendages in my struggles with The Specter ... and have been reduced to a disembodied head. Did you have to kill a deer right next to me?" ANSWER ME!!!! I KILL YOU! "There's a baby deer," I repeated, smiling to him and still pointing. I could see his disembodied head talking to me, could see the blood still spurting.... Umm ... it was the little deer over by frozen treats! (I still wonder why Freihofer's had products other than carrot cake if they were run by the giant disembodied head of a rabbit) NOOOOOOOO!! Bily Corgan's disembodied head: "So, do you want me to speak to you, or not?" The disembodied head goes spinning through the air before hitting the ground with a thud simultaneously with the body. In the distance, we see a deer run away.... =80=80=20 k. silem mohammad visiting assistant professor of british & anglophone literature university of california santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:32:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: eyelash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII eyelash ...that voyeurism is not about sex but about knowledge and there is a critical moment which the voyeur experiences, which galvanizes hir, the moment of imagined voyeurism, of the visibility and viability of the object. the voyeur relies on a preparation, the geometric assertion, with which s/he bolsters hir desired implosion. so it would seem that the net makes voyeurs of us all; we constantly wryte ourselves, thus hiding the voyeuristic self further because voyeurism is so diffuse and constant, any voyeur here, anytime, by looking out the window and seeing what our lives can only guess. the voyeur gains knowledge about the private habits of those s/he watches. a slightly different aspect of voyeurism; you on the contingent moment, the unexpected naked body in the window, and i, on the voyeur-life, we are inseparable because the voyeuristic relation is naturally a thwarted sexual act of voyeurism to be "successful"; the sexual need plays out as the voyeur is ruled by the watched, in a sense - spellbound, as you say. and it is this submission to the watched which impels the voyeur to know theoretical interstices, ontologies, epistemol- ogies, real and virtual. the compulsive voyeur may ask: "why do i do it? why do i torture myself?"; here (and elsewhere) we diverge; the voyeur's transgressive moment is amplified and clarified in the voyeur life. that way of living is all there is for them. the theoretical they produce is simultaneously a devouring and inscribing of the world that otherwise would not exist, everything out of sight impossibly trembles. damaged life held together by a skein of mucilage and damaged life? the quota is a measure, in fact, of damaged life, of life that refuses damaged life consciousness of throughout the broken measure of cyberdamaged life. phenomenology is always already a masochism or always already constructed in webpage or screen; it splays into littoral, to ash. .net splays mesh across the same imaginary, it blooms, disperses, splays across domains and definitions. it processes desire, acts as consort to voyeurisms splaying the residue or information concerning a particular user - hir flesh. being splays, displays, called sight, site, citation. voyeur /a.txt:1 /an:8 /ba:1 /bb:1 /c.txt:1 /dd:6 /ee:9 /ff:14 /hh:1 /i.txt:1 /jk:1 /jm:1 /jp:1 /jr:1 /ju:2 /jv:1 /ke:1 /ki:1 /kk:1 /kw:4 /kx:2 /lg:1 /lk:26 /lp:2 /ly:1 /lz:1 /me:2 /ml:1 /net2.txt:1 /net6.txt:2 /p.txt:2 /s.txt:1 damage /weather:3 /am:1 /ba:3 /bb:1 /book1:1 /book2:2 /c.txt:1 /cancer.txt:1 /cc:1 /dd:4 /e.txt:1 /f.txt:1 /ff:1 /i.txt:1 /ii:1 /jj:2 /jl:1 /jp:2 /jt:1 /jv:2 /jx:1 /kd:1 /kg:2 /kh:1 /kj:2 /km:1 /ko:2 /kp:2 /kq:1 /kr:2 /ks:1 /kt:2 /ku:1 /kw:2 /ky:1 /lb:2 /lk:1 /ln:2 /m.txt:1 /mc:2 /me:4 /mf:1 /mg:1 /mi:1 /mj:2 /mk:1 /ml:1 /net10.txt:1 /net11.txt:3 /net12.txt:1 /net14.txt:1 /net3.txt:1 /net4.txt:1 /net6.txt:2 /net7.txt:1 /o.txt:1 _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:51:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: praise for Neidecker In-Reply-To: from "Jordan Davis" at Jul 31, 2002 09:48:19 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey y'all, I just thought I'd mention that I thing each and everyone one of you should own Neidecker's Collected Works! (Cal 2002) I felt like I knew her work pretty well but this collection is a revelation and I'm only about half way through. Highlights for me include the uncannily Ashberian "Stage Directions" and a series of short plays from the mid thirties. But I keep finding more. Pick it up! -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:56:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker In-Reply-To: <200208021951.g72JpkO1019116@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I second this--it's a majorly significant and beautiful book, and beautifully produced--but EXPENSIVE: what, like 45 bucks or something? Still, I will eventually break down & add it to my shelves. Kasey on 8/2/02 12:51 PM, Michael Magee at mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU wrote: > Hey y'all, I just thought I'd mention that I thing each and everyone one > of you should own Neidecker's Collected Works! (Cal 2002) I felt like I > knew her work pretty well but this collection is a revelation and I'm only > about half way through. Highlights for me include the uncannily Ashberian > "Stage Directions" and a series of short plays from the mid thirties. > But I keep finding more. Pick it up! -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Ohio notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In my view, the most interesting avant-garde >gesture at the affair was Bob >Grumman's calling Mike Magazinnik "Igor," and >Igor Satanovsky "Mike." Here >again (per my article) is an exchange of identities >not quite accomplished. >Seriously Bob, it was good to meet you. Take >care of yourself. Best, Bill Bob Grumman did that?! Well, if he got to meet you in person, Bill, I'm pleased! all best, Emily Dickinson (but not THE Emily Dickinson!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! In-Reply-To: <3D4A9065.17948.1803C023@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Swarm Shallow water acoustics random mutants, solar warning and real-time monitors, space weather aeronomical response models, socialism was a reality-based movement, sophists walking among revolutionists meditating. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:39:21 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 16 (For/ /posting.) My/ /poster is/ /for a/ /looks of/ /extraction sounds,/ /hammered windows,/ /pinches of/ /crusts, and/ /oxidant people/ /extruded by/ /no storefront./ /Extant shelves/ /narrow on/ /some harsh/ /ideas to/ /repeating capricious/ /mutters and/ /orienting sounds/ /None am/ /charged to/ /explain this/ /in anonymous/ /arms, reflections,/ /or an/ /fallen rotting/ /memory named/ /"Forgotten". (Inquire/ /without). Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:37:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Lewis Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Waking Up With Arakawa and Gins Even though his eyes were closed he could perceive through his opaque lids that the sun was cleaving the horizon creating both daybreak and nightfall, the transitive light adhering and cutting a trajectory of tangerine shadow above, below and upon the edges For as long as he could remember every morning began - with his attempts to observe his own invisibility, an insight that seemed to originate from somewhere within the movement of his body's self, and with his meditations on the sizelessness of thought which he knew was absurd and couldn't be measured at all but still he strived with a level of devotion that could only be described as burning Each dawn he felt as if he were staring into himself and that his vision's line was a thick taught rope, he recorded his awakening impressions, storing them within the coiled filaments (the feel of his warmed sheets) (the voices of the congregating sparrows wings as they skipped points toward him) he felt they aimed their feathered songs into his open window, into his closed eyes and he rode their tongues to consciousness He looked forward to pulling the morning into his body almost as much as he loved pulling the night in, observing how the back of his eyelids held the aurora in abeyance, he projected his vision within the blank, spending time discovering thought, bringing it from transparency to objectification, charting links between his intentions and actions and when he was ready, and not a moment before, he would open his eyes Karen Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:38:20 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: SORT OF A POEM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed This will be the first lines from me. i am new to all this. the list that is, or what ever we i should call it. but i have been reading some 20-30 emails a day. no time to make my own contributation. in anycase, somebody said we should all send in a poem (or was it 2) a day - well, i never really do write in english. although i do try. therefor my reason for failing (be warned). Swedish is the only language that floats well with me. so - for the rest. language. pardon me. What you are doing. Looking, he said at your nailpolish. One finger, two three Mine, in your eyes. Hands. saneh saadati _________________________________________________________________ MSN Hotmail är världens populäraste e-posttjänst. Skaffa dig ett eget konto du också: http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Re: SORT OF POEM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > for the rest. language. pardon me No worries! Your language problem fits right in here. Some might even call it down-right artistic. Poetics List gives new meaning to English as a bastardized language; the same meaning to English as hacked beyond any public recognition and therefore interest. Now listen as listees tell you, (with a glee in their eyes), how they *distinguish themselves* by their pathetic lack of attention paid to audience of their writing-product, and how depth and complexity, (read 'obfuscation'), creates opportunity for the reader. What helps them make multi-signifiers (the ubiquity of their writing), also guarantees them that pervasive mistakes cannot be so easily recognized. Very convenient. It is not easy to argue within a foreign subjective language. People who develop this unkind-of-writing, also, as luck would have it, have an school-of-interpretation (langpo), which offers 'consulting services,' so to speak, to help you review and understand what the writing is supposed to mean, (i.e. buy this book-of-47-essays/poems to find out). Of course, there is no conflict of interest here. If these writers actually allowed their literary work to be *open and accessible* to the reader, people might - shudder! - understand it themselves, and then how would these writers be able to look smart ? Of course, then again, listees will remind you unwarranted complexity and poor user-design is positioned as 'flexibility within signifiers.' Go figure. Exactly. It was once ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Poem In-Reply-To: <002c01c23a53$8b1faa40$751a86d4@overgrowngarden> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit rigged our revolution from the beginning kari edwards before our mouths, cunts and punctures with the donkey equally fast succeeds one looks like our desire in addition; elsewhere, our frigged engine has but the release and the new realization between our fingers. we suck in rotation and the similar speed, never leaving with our donkey. before our thing, the genitals will put on, if it mumbles inside quick adding the puncture it equals in our desire donkey and it sees one thing, it succeeds; all in the place. it has our engine emission between our thing and new actualization finger frigged, us with shifts before our thing in our thing the donkey sucks assuredly inside leaving child one speed. the genitals the well distance highland which it will put on inside quick adding the puncture equal in our desire and the donkey and it sees one thing, it succeeds; in the different place. it has our engine emission between our thing and new actualization finger frigged; we shift inside leaving child one speed. do not suck the donkey assuredly in our thing, before our mouths, cunts and perforating follows. ours frigged machine has more river mouths that releases the new realization between our fingers. we deny our donkey in the revolution and in the similar speed before our knows sits the genital year, emission between our knows and new implementation finger frigged. we shift before our perforating adding genitals, equal in our donkey and known in the different system as our machine emission between our finger frigged. if the cunts you say before our ones, driving out put addition on fast donkey as our cravings seen which continues equally; rather than having the machine release new forcing recognition between the frigged, our finger, and us of speed, and the fermentation which resembles and denies revolutions slow. with our intellectual before being looks at equal foothold, our machine discharges that between us, having known to be, the frigged? we us who do not inhale the speed of gliding in the midst of fermentation of the child so slow, crave revolution between our fingers and our mouths but assuredly you have known of speed, and finger frigged. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:42:48 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: "The disassembly, reorganization, and reassembly of language..." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From Jacket's copious pockets: "A link to collection of programs and resources for the disassembly, reorganization, and reassembly of language... hopefully useful for writers and experimentalists who want to jumpstart their creativity, or otherwise wreck havoc upon an unsuspecting text: TextWorx Toolshed at http://www.burningpress.org/toolbox/index.html." J T ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 01:51:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: RESORT OF A REPLY (bogie) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit luck would have it luck is not easy to find out of course complexity creates opportunity language pardon me no worries your language figure exactly interpretation to speak writing is ubiquity so to speak? to help you review and understand the writing is posed as hacked beyond recognition as hacked paid mean essay a gain unwarranted unkind that mistake cannot be easy within people pathetic product your problem fits right beyond any public recognition buy this? the literary go figure foreign themselves open the reader to be open to understand themselves and understand no conflict not easy to argue with poor positions accessible people understand it writers eye opportunity for the rest language fits in poetics speak the reader open bastard hack buy guarantees? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:18:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael McColl Subject: On the first night of the journey they lay MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT on seedbeds of wicked sentences advantages clicked against their cold shoes hot turkey steamed and babbled the rights of man our cast of thousands your town their childish brains on water on land. And the crisp America turned and sank to hatch out birdie brain, beaming and scattering missile defense in areas of dementia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:37:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Fwd: Waves of Drifting Snow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I have come into some "remaindered" copies of _Waves of Drifting >Snow_, a little haiku collection of mine published by Ox Head >Press close to fifteen years ago. The book is beautifully done, >handprinted and sewn (Don Olsen, the printer, is legendary for his >work, though he is now retired from the art) and comes in a blue >rice paper slipcase. I'd be happy to send copies to anyone who >might have an interest. If you would send me five dollars, or the >money order equivalent, however that works for people who don't >deal in dollars, I will send you one. I expect to have the copies in a >couple of weeks. > >My address: > >1147 W. Lincoln Blvd. >Freeport, IL 61032 > >-Kent Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:13:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Disturbance of body and water In-Reply-To: <0H08006LYUDMXV@mtaout05.icomcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Disturbance of body and water _A goy: yoga_ prayer, I in sun, a tree (well, a _short_ tree hopping. in the shallow end) achieve, reach stallion-high I am any tree I see -- and along comes a bee Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 23:16:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: send a poem to poetics Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Last two (nos. 159, 160) of my ongoing series of 4-line-only Bent Nails: back into death's face to blind him and he'll refuse ever to take you just on principle go try try and understand thy neighbor's hanging toothbrush Irving Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:44:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE CAVE CHILDREN OF NEW YORK ARE NEVER FREE A freedom feels. Like everyone tells. The kiss years from now. Deepened & opened out onto. Used to be how anxious. Decent tries attract buyers. Them that. Lessen fears unto the door. He isn't, is he? But while the bravery smears...wakable laxation guillotine. Letters=attach=novelisme=guiltless=utile=anti=gradule=envelope. Word aims diagrams arrive. At standing postal discretion avowed her another thankless. We as them operate. Youse badger the wiggins but doon power the mudder-be's. Draconian measures is stanza understatement. Hopping swoggle blays toothe fin. My antics buy time. New York creams its afterlife, the single heroic villager. Man O man popping. Destiny player's forgery. I cambert justice nor tackle Ho Chi Minh. Believer yesterday more than concession. Who would make, anyway? mIEKAL JOGLARS Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: PRYDXL (version 5.1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In an attempt to set the world's record for the most definitions for one word, I AM SEEKING THE MOST POSSIBLE DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS FOR THE WORD : PRYDXL (version 5.1) definitions 1-70 are at: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/PRYDXL/deflist2.html these definitions were added to PRYDXL's illustrious compendium of meaning today by the new collaborative writing elist SPIDERTANGLE http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spidertangle/ 71. A PRYDXL is a ceremony designed to straighten out a painfully bent penis. Mainly practiced today as a measure of last resort. John M. Bennett 72. The shortest piece of a C-flute, especially one bearing a specifically measured trace of tarnish of the type that results from uniquely wayward performances of late Baroque scores. Sheila Murphy 73. A new electronic warfare weapon developed by the National Security Agency. It will allow Pentagon to disrupt enemy servers & communications by instantly turning their content into language poetry. Igor Satanovsky 74. Acronym, the original meaning of which has been lost, used to categorize artesian well waters from Superfund sites. Joel Lipman 75. (n., archaic) Salve commonly dispensed in bathhouses. Joel LIpman 76. A she-cat hellqueen, especially wicked or eerie looking one, sometimes inspired by or having influence over government policies, as it were, a shadow government or policy distinctions cannot be clearly made or precisely determined. Lakey Teasdale ADDENDUM: The noise made by the above cat during affectionate/demonic backlash. Kathy Ernst 77. Common name for Twenty-Second Century prematurely born synthetic males. Suffix "La" used for females, e.g., Prydxl-La. Suffix "Le" used for gender-nonspecific diminutive, e.g., Prydxl-Le. Joel Lipman 78. CORRECTION: Sub-species (threatened) of microscopic butterflies found only in the Louisiana parishes adjacent to the oil refining center of Algiers. [Note: There are conflicting opinions on both whether the PRYDXL is a species or sub-species and as to the definitive status of its "threatened" status. This information is offered as a nonpredjudicial addendum to the original definition.] Joel Lipman 79. The very instant at which psychics begin to channel, the instant something strikes them, the instant before it becomes a PREDICTION. Kathy Ernst 80. With respect to Kathy Ernst's helpful definition, this "instant" (PRYDXL) was extensively documented in the tragically evaporated Compendium of Powers, once housed in the Old Hogwart's Library. Suspended traces of the document are said to hover over the school's campus. Joel Lipman 81. PRYDXL, as it became known in the media, was a particularly embarassing public relations fiasco for gangster rapper DMX, whose hit "D-X-L (Hard White)," as it turned out, included lyrics originally written by Barry Manilow. These lyrics can be found at : http://www.geocities.com/lyricsdmx/x_lyrics/dxl.html Igor Satanovsky 82. According to an ancient manuscript DE NATURA TORTUORUM written by Almeric de Padua circa XI cent. the PRYDXL was an instrument of torture used by the monks in order to extract the confession (by extracting their teeth out) of guilt of witches and warlocks. Carlos Luis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:04:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: poem: "how many" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII poem: "how many" how many of us read the flesh behind the poem, the mesh or gash or wound inscribed, the politics imbibed, what once was home. every death dissembles, every breath dissembles being already reeling from uniform uniform. hungry men take children by storm; there is always harm. they come to the desert. they have visions. they make incisions. all books hurt, are cut. no charm envisions, fakes, starts. their hearts are torn by words from central committees. all's the pities. inscribed, behind the poem, the mesh or gash how many of us read the flesh dissembles what once was home. every death the politics imbibed, or wound take children being already reeling from uniform dissembles, every breath the desert. they have by storm; there is always harm. uniform. hungry men hurt, are cut. no charm visions. they make incisions. all they come to all's their hearts are torn by words envisions, fakes, starts. books the pities. from central committees. 6 less NOISE 7 more NOISE _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 04:42:48 +0000 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Sitting Up, Standing, Taking Steps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed High gray sky. A large wood table with only a green bottle of "white" Rhine wine atop it (empty). An open umbrella upside down in one corner of the room. Ritz crackers topped with cream cheese and, beside them, crayolas. Gray plastic bottle of lemon ammonia on its side on the green tile in back of the toilet. My red-and-black checked CPO jacket atop a guitar in my rocking chair. Butter on the knife. Dobermans and Danes. The walkin and his cutout. A callus around the ring. Slice of toast on a saucer on a corner of the wood table. The low fast foreign car. The girl with green eyes. The venetian blind. One day of Crash City. Water table. The fatal florist in the forest. The thickness of my mother's ankles. Poise of the pen. Yellow Buick. The numbers and kinds of irreducible acts. Cloud shadow on the still bay. Crips and walkies. Black sock. Extension and the nature of existence. The transfer point. Red orange. Solidity. Fog. The green felt-top table in the tavern light. The geometry of cues. His sister. The olive trees of Sacramento Street. Chipped cup. The submarine on the horizon in the sunset. State of null karma. Undefined descriptive predicate. Little lobes. Some handsome hands. Statue of a dog with a fish in its mouth. Something about cow- boys in bus depots. The real heat. Great sloping grove of clover. The bell curve. Woman in a pink blouse. Amber, ochre. The action faction or the praxis axis. Chaps tick. Cheesy smell of a dog stool. Hiss of traffic. Sunset debris. Jackalope. Pudding cups. Bruise on her thigh. Crab grass. Eggplant in the shape of a face or dolphin. Blue bench. Prairie apple. Albino with a beard. Hard edge. Pornographic motherhood. Chess people. World behavior. Knuckle archives. Sausage. Saucer. Long legged women on platform, short skirts, streaks of blonde in their hair, lipstick a deep, deep red. Itch of the coccyx or the cuticle wall. A net of concrete atop the planet, streets and roads and boulevards. Oily leather skin of the shopping bag lady. Experimental sheep. Moldy towel. Hair in a shag, with large white earrings. As tho under a footbridge. A small man in a big brimmed hat. In a heliport by the sea wall in the fog. A new white pen to write with. The bus to the suburbs. A store full of reptiles. Rows of white headstones. Toll bridge. The eyes of the bus driver in the rearview mirror. A small mole on the female stranger's upper lip. An old Chinese woman with black slacks on under her dress. Helicopter, harbor, filmy morning light. A green suit, a white shirt and a loud tie or a gray suit, a blue shirt and a striped, quiet tie. Three kinds of prose. Color films of dead people. Burned out buses among backlot dillweed, Military Ocean Terminal. Deer fetus wine of China. Pigeons in the eaves of a Queen Anne's tower. All toes of identical length. Odor of stale soap, bus depot john. Abductor muscles. The bitterness of women. The problem of truth in fiction. Abandoned railroad cars on a siding by the rock quarry. Advanced life support unit. Geometry of the personal. Midget in a large felt hat. Fork lift. Abandoned industrial trackside cafeteria amid dillweed stalks. My droor thing. Corridor of condos. Post-nasal drip. Hot hamster. Sand in the notebook. A salt-water cave. Eroded ruins. The bend in the pelican's wing-spread. Algae in a tidepool. An old windowless house of concrete, its door rusted off, with nothing inside it but odor and an open safe. Pepper on the eggs. Jaws. One of several small silver bracelets. A thin layer of sand, a coarse film, in my nose and hair. Under a willow beside the pile of raked leaves, the lawn mower in the graveyard. Density or sleep. The Paradise Cafe. A small heap of grey, broken bird wings. Puka shell necklace. The woman with the shawl or the woman with the apple. The angle of the pile of unwashed plates. Red goose shoes. A terrible dirigible incident. Natural gas pipeline. Lubricated prophylactic. Legend of the Pony Express. Midmorning. Dark stools. Rice paper wafer. Longer boat under the bridge. The brown boot. Bananas. This way. A linguistic emulsion. Feedback. Radial tires in the mud. The constant knocker. The bridge of the nose. A location or condition of the mind. Prodder. Curlews and herons in the lagoon at low tide, the red sky of night, sailor's delight, moss on the willow, shoes off, pebbles between toes. Frigate. Ceramic blue star. Briar patch. Friend or lover. The long pier. A system, an argot. The window in the windsurfer's sail. Geese of the lagoon. Long shadows. A field of woven grass. A superficial, professional verbal exchange. Outdoor basketball courts as a form of . sculpture. Sharp shadows on the fennel that constitute a description of dawn. Article-starved predicate. World of ski-boots. Root beer. Big damp grey dog. Panda plant, ice plant, wandering Jew. Along the coast, on cots, in coats. A warm new storm. Blue ink on a white page between red lines. Words after words. Chard. The loose goose. The late dawn of December. Duck soup. A cheeselike discharge in her vagina. The fat cat's flat hat. . Glass beads, tortoise shell ring. Legendary bladder, legendary weak bladder. Stable, half-supple string of terms and relations. Hang glider. Forgotten sentence. Deep blue dome of sky above still grey plane of water. Between movies, not cinema, not films, not here, between movies. Condo door awning. A not-fat dalmatian. Schizo. Things to know versus things to do. Ochre school bus. The objects of thought, qualities and relations. The chapter on things. Corn row hair style. Shower or storm. Bozos, yoyos, turkeys, geeks. Slope-shouldered fuckoff. Henry Africa's. Curlew, sandpiper, tern, gull, godwit. Swizzle stick. Cuticle. Static electricity. Mauve. Tow- away zone. Blue mailbox. Cabin cruiser. Itchy balls. Half-eaten apple. Helen Frankenthaler's newer works. The Jello word for the day. Spurs. A duck that looks just like Groucho. Banana-flavored taffy. Mirror image. A fire in the oil fields. Motown. Spewn shrapnel-like remnants of a helicopter. Tripod. Cumshot. Certain, possible, impossible. During. Herons about a boat hull at low tide. Pink crayon, blue crayon. Fat black dog. Bloody earlobe. Faucets. A field of clover over there. The towers of the bridge. The pillars. Odor of paper. Orange and green quilt. Hair in an Afro-blowout. Golden saxophone. Key of C. Tail of an afghan. Vapor trail in a light blue sky. Trace of a vapor trail. Memory and imagination. New page. A park on a hillside. A valley full of water, a bay. Green and round arid in pain. Toy boat. Kite in the shape of a moth. Gray day. Slow trombones. Red lines. Gentle smell of dust. Duck pond by the freeway. Bo Diddley's hat. The damaged guitar. Expository sentence. More than this. Walnut desk in foodstamp office. Halfhour of videotape. Boulevards. Studebaker. Blue-grey eyes. Not nouns. A series of ankles. An investment. Phil Whalen's "platter of little feet." His shaved head, light colored eye-brows, thin lips, wide ears. The precise odor of pavement. The fog before dawn. The missing felt-tip pen. The ability. Kidney beans, pinto. Inherent danger in. Ninth. Lithographers, associates. Spurs, chaps, myth. The inflamed hangnail. As big as. Red goose shoes. Watermelon tattoo. Hoosier state. Bean factory. Wart upon nose. Ice tea. Colorless dawn sky. Sloop. Verb. One mean mastiff. Tugrope. Slide guitar. Man of no fortune. Worm time. Macro-. Oat Willie's cappuccino. Towards words. Determiner. Faucet. Tattoo of a watermelon. Light blue summer morning sky. Swordfish. Seahorse. Recent problems in the general theory of karma. Revisionaries. His class origin versus his class stand. One rim job. Butch. A lad with an Afro blowout. A stinger. Number or doobie. Next to the last. Texaco, Arco, Exxon. Garden Street, Treat Street, Canty Lane, Highland Place. Tarnal, Represa, Corona, Stormdrawer, Marion, Butner, Steilacoom, Sandstone, Redwing, Starke. Facials and manicures upstairs. Pronominal anaphor. The staggers, the shudders, the White House horrors. Alcatraz shade and blind. The hustle, the bump. Crash City. Neck, bridge, nut, fret. Meat rack. An attitude towards the verbal. An old man in a straw hat in the shade with a Dr. Pepper. Yellow mustard dispenser. Hotter, more hot. A deposit of red pepper on a lettuce leaf. Horny high school students. The politically conscious meter maid. Charred hill. Dry leaf. Cecil the seasick sea serpent, Rags the tiger. Neighbor. Burnt eucalyptus. The first poem about Kefir. Capitol of North Dakota. Turmoil. The sexually-active dental technician's very good friend's larger but younger Spaniel. A stairway to heaven. Nancy and Sally and Suzy. Kevin and Kirk. Kevin and Patty. Patty and Andy. Patty and Frank or Darrell. Tony and Roberta. Frank again and Nora and Eric. Richie and Joan and Carol. Aaron and a different Carol. Jesse and Sarah. Maxine or Ashleigh. Jeanne and Peter. Fame as a subject. Fame as an object. Mister tooth decay. Ferry terminal. Quarry. Hobo camp, the ranch. Population. Fluoride. Peonson's bald head (pate). Cops or thieves or cops and thieves. The dry dock. Bison, bison. Blue Capri. Still more pronominal anaphors. Her red fuzzy muff. Ambivalence, an autobiography. Good buddy. Bachelors together. Hoop, rim, backboard. Fine white smoke of a grass fire just east of San Quentin on the first day of July. Forgotten things. The headmaster's daughter. Low in tar. Mucous. The red scooter. Almond mask. His sock. Each new first time. Description, an invention. Slice of life pie. Marigolds. White white jumpsuit. Echoes. Concentration camps by the name of bantustans. Clarinet. At first. The day before Barbara's birthday, two before Chuck's. Brown or red brick. Blue toothpaste. On stage. Ferry terminal. Four day week. Interpol or Cointelpro or Burns. Namibian difficulties. The recent unpleasantness between Japan and the U.S. List lover. Trailer park. Underpass. Tuesday, a.m. What, alarm, ceiling, clock, dull light, urine, toothpaste, blue shirt, jeans, water for coffee, bacon, eggs, soy toast, phony earth shoes, bus, another bus, typewriter, telephone, co-workers, salad, iced tea, more co-workers, bus, ambulance on freeway, another bus, a beer, chicken, rice and squash, today's mail, feces, TV, glass of chablis, darkness. Rare delta fog. Plywood, fiber- board. Couch, divan, chesterfield, sofa. String of silver elephants on a chain about her neck. Her inevitably turned-up Levi cuffs. The moderately successful wage slave. Morning in North Beach, Sunday in Chinatown. Locked bumpers, a problem in front of Rincon Annex, inside WPA murals of the working class, back from Ghana at forty. The tease. Sky blue wall of the racket club. Space cowboy. The cotton rings around the mountain, bum rhythm, the limp, the gimp. Googoo dada dada. P soup. For the entire family. 2 Disney smash hits. The All ? Game. Two ponies in a brick red trailer behind a brown pickup with a bale of hay in the back. Bush jacket from China. Names of the cross streets. A restful orange. A restful orange bridge. The water, the haze, the sky, all blue, a line drawing. Or not blue but grey or gray. All the same. Industrial park. Heliport. Saliva. Canal at low tide. Pompadour sheriff's yacht by the curious name of Bijou, a year's wages. Shade over shade over shade. The curl of the ear. The tongue behind the teeth behind the lips, at the entrance of the throat. Remainder of a cigar. Calm blue eyes. Bells and chimes and wooden drums. Straw horse. Off-white piano. High hat. Blue couch. An old pair of Frye boots. Summer. The sun. High gray sky. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:54:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Free Beer All Night in NJ In-Reply-To: <004d01c2382d$03109f60$ca85590c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >are you in the area? >RB I always am. gb > > cannot drink will send students smassoni@aol.com > > -- George Bowering How can I thank you? Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:05:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: www.muse-apprentice-guild.com In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit please check out muse apprentice guild, just started up. has some writers form this list.... muse apprentice guild: www.muse-apprentice-guild.com a literary magazine with an unique and impeccable standard: accepting unsolicited work in all genres from critically acclaimed authors and overlooked writers alike. kari ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:14:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Sending, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ron! I'm "sending a poem to poetics" after a 16-month hiatus from the list. Hello, [some] old friends. Pat Pritchett, are you still here? I have a bibliographic question for you . . . DOUBLE HEADER in the complex nature of baseball Mike Cameron's baserunning gaffe (asking for time after sliding into second instead of going to third on an errant throw) is good news, as it almost ensures that he'll do something good later, but Ichiro homers, absolving him . . . a very Japanese thing to do in this pan-Asian city, summer sun setting below the lip of the stadium, Halama in trouble again the young girl two rows up to the left leans forward, exposing the top of the line of her asshole, her only notable asset at *this* point, but the game is young, the earth just three billion years, the universe fourteen and a third (the current state of cosmology in the *NY Times* science section) a bomber curves left to Boeing Field ensuring the homeland security of the citizens at their national pastime "Alcohol Enforcement" said the tee-shirts of some solid citizens on patrol in the vestibule around the concessions "You see them?" I leaned over to a long-haired, thirtyish, pockmarked fan "They make sure you're drinking" "I like those guys!" surprise Brit accent, grin splitting his face (Cameron doubles!) "and if you're in line, they'll buy you a beer!" * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (five days later) in the bleachers against Detroit (Jack Hirshman's favorite team) Ernie Harwell -- retiring this year -- throws out the first ball (now Scully stands alone propped up by Rupert Murdoch -- (and with all the telecom failures isn't it about time *he* got caught? Think: no Fox News -- how great a loss could that be?) young Japanese girls in kimonos with rainbow sneakers shirtless in the bleachers "your Seattle Mariners" (brought to you by Nintendo) Halama needs a quick inning "Isn't that an oxymoron?" and gets one! So much for word and thing, seduction by rhetoric which poetry ain't, according to Zukofsky's *Test*, (recently re-read in preparation for writing a major poem, three-dimensional) second and third no outs Sierra, who fucked up before now gets his chance to atone as this poem treads familiar ground (a motif) but he strikes out, calling into question the content, but not the integrity of the poetic line, where there are no mis-steps possible (whether that applies to life is not treated in this report) but Cameron and Ben Davis "the catcher of the future" come through, three-three tie, baseball rivaling Pythagoras in its fascination for whole numbers (the pen almost running out of ink an effect unreproducible in words on a computer screen unless Alan Sondheim can do it) five-thirty, Ben Davis (the catcher of the present) singles! he's three for three, five forty five, seventh inning stretch falling in love with the nominative . . . in the interminable wait for a pitching change the electronic "noise" sign invariably flashes, postponing at least the aborted attempts at starting a wave (right-to-lifers getting bankruptcy protection along with giant corporations) time for the six o'clock news we're gonna rock around the clock tonight (and at six eighteen the sound system plays Bill Haley's version of that song!) while Ichiro checks out the kimonoed girls and the pen runs out of ink again so I dip it in spit, write on my heel (like Whitman), drop it on the ground reviving my precious quill as we head into extra innings more bang for your buck or "last inning, the tenth!" as I heard a young boy at my father's children's ware store say in 1963, even then scorning his ignorance before Scully's golden throat smoothed everyone's nerves . . . a gathering at the mound, Cameron walks, loading the bases, the infield and outfield come in McLemore bats for Ben Davis (the catcher of the past) and it's a suicide squeeze . . . (!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:29:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC In-Reply-To: <3CB6C703.25E4B439@theeastvillageeye.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Boog City presents > >the Baseball issue >Sunday April 14, 6:37 p.m. >the Zinc Bar >90 W. Houston St. >(off La Guardia Pl.) >NYC >$4 Is there any chance of contributors getting copies of this? >free Bazooka, Cracker Jacks, and Baseball Cards > >and (now that I have your attention) > >readings from issue six of Boog City > >including Bill Luoma, Carol Mirakove, and Elinor Nauen, among others > >an excerpt from the classic United Artists baseball book >"Yo-Yos with Money" by Ted Berrigan and Harris Schiff >being read by Ed Berrigan and Schiff > >live ballpark music performed by our organist >Daniel Saltzman > >and deluxe pinch hitters stepping up to the dish >(think Manny Mota with some power) >one of whom could be you > >(bring your own or someone else's baseball words, >and you could be called on when the pitcher's due up in the bottom of >the 8th. >three minutes or less please. thanks) > >and all sorts of other hijinks >(our national anthem may be rewritten and performed, >if her voice has recovered, by a >Brooklyn poet who speaks Japanese and sings like an angel, >but I've said too much already) > >brought to you by your hosts > >baseball issue editor and Zinc Bar curator >Douglas Rothschild > >and Boog City editor >David A. Kirschenbaum > >for more information >212-206-8899 >editor@boogcity.com > >--------- > >issue six of Boog City, the baseball issue, >includes work on baseball from the following: > >Tom Devaney * Don Byrd and Pierre Joris * Elinor Nauen * Ed Smith * Bill >Luoma * Andrew Schelling * >Angela Bowering * George Bowering * Lawrence Ferlinghetti * Kevin >Gallagher * Owen Hill * >Marcella Durand * Ann Elliot Sherman * Carol Mirakove * Sharon Mesmer * >David Hadbawnik > >and > >Greg Fuchs on our other national pastime, war > >Stacee Sledge on The Mysteries of Life > >the debut of our comics section, edited by Gary Sullivan >with work from Josh Neufeld and Javelin P and a >review of the 9/11 comics collections by Sullivan > >and >poetry from >Philip Good, Chris Martin, and Stephen Paul Miller > >now up to 20 pages to serve you better > >Copies are available to the first 100 respondents to this here email for >free, >simply send an 8.5" x 11" $1.04 sase to the below address, attn: Boog >City 6. > >as ever, >david > >-- >David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher >Boog City >351 W.24th St., Suite 19E >NY, NY 10011-1510 >T: (212) 206-8899 >F: (212) 206-9982 >editor@boogcity.com -- George Bowering How can I thank you? Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 01:25:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (two shopping mall haikus) "bohemian" blouses for $25 and up at the Glendale Galleria bought a denim jacket at Forever 21 feeling old -- Gwynne Garfinkle hometown.aol.com/gwynnega/gwynne.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:25:36 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Hawai'ian Haiku Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hawai'ian Haiku In Honolulu nobody watches 'Hawaii Five-O'. J T ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:54:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Free Beer All Night in NJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh?! Like God L ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: 03 August 2002 05:54 Subject: Re: Free Beer All Night in NJ | >are you in the area? | >RB | | I always am. | | gb | | > > cannot drink will send students smassoni@aol.com | > > | | | -- | George Bowering | How can I thank you? | Fax 604-266-9000 | ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 13:48:13 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (despite the pronunciation): Niedecker, Lorine Collected Poems University of California Press April 2002 (unfortunately) $ 45 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 09:34:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: M/E/A/N/I/N/G @ Artkrush.Com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It=92s Alive =85 M/E/A/N/I/N/G Reincarnated at Artkrush.Com (http://www.artkrush.com). This August, M/E/A/N/I/N/G goes live at Artkrush.Com with a =93Special=20 Edition=94 forum produced in cooperation with Artkrush on-line arts= magazine.=20 M/E/A/N/I/N/G=92s first on-line forum -- =93Is Resistance Futile?=94 --= features=20 commentary and images by David Humphrey, Lucio Pozzi, Aneta Szylack, and=20 Daryl Chin, as well as of M/E/A/N/I/N/G=92s coeditors Susan Bee and Mira= Schor. M/E/A/N/I/N/G, the independent, noncommercial journal of artist=92s writing= =20 and critical commentary, published 20 issues between 1986-1996. Many of=20 the key works from the magazine were collected in M/E/A/N/I/N/G: An=20 Anthology of Artist's Writings, Theory, and Criticism, from Duke University= =20 Press in 2000. In his recent review of the book in Art in America, Raphael= =20 Rubinstein wrote that =93For readers who are curious about what it actually= =20 felt like to be a struggling American artist circa 1990, M/E/A/N/I/N/G is=20 an invaluable resource.=94 With M/E/A/N/I/N/G =93Special Edition=94 we bring= that=20 experience up to date. Susan Bee Mira Schor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:51:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Thomas Barr Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A short piece, with restrictions: HUMANS we construct wires on high poles to share our thoughts and tunnels slung underground to share our shits ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:33:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Disturbance of body and water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a psalm a palm response beesyesvu bum bumbumlbeebalm bee's knees ache stooping to conquer conserve reserve preserve deserve yonder a bush a bushwhacker missile projectile ah tale told by a dyslexic gone with the wound sheila ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:39:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: pleasure amerikan In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit each park of pleasure amerikan and almost each elephant in a large hall with Zufallsseepings of blood which reads an as examination of expression, onassis. note: kennedy aquamarine of herdsman. the Jacqueline, the worthy one in the newspaper of the late ones was sold for $28,75, and pointed out 7 million 7-11s and 380 points for chinese acupuncture, had at the same time started to note linguistics creatures of the year with 3000, the ones called somebody, an epistemology which went this way, they said, which had to do something with a discussion on the great sections still not introduced for dispersion. at the present time a hoedown lost another national possession and the businesses danced bejeezus owners of intelligence and great cybernetic effects. at the present time without the usual mathematical analysis of Shark fish skin complaints amalgamated with alligator shoes each park of pleasure amerikan and almost each elephant kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:46:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: Kiosk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are still a few copies of Kiosk available. Subscription = information appears below. =20 Kiosk: A Journal of Poetry, Poetics, and Experimental Prose -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 The 2oo2 issue features the writings of:=20 =20 =20 Alice Notley =20 Kristen Gallagher =20 Jesse Seldess =20 =20 Thom Donovan =20 =20 Fiona Templeton =20 =20 Leslie Scalapino =20 Patrick F. Durgin = =20 Katherine Wagner =20 Melissa Ragona =20 Michael Magee =20 =20 Luisa Giugliano =20 Andy Carter =20 =20 Martin Corless-Smith =20 =20 Claudia Keelan =20 Jerome Rothenberg =20 =20 Gregg Biglieri =20 =20 Steve McCaffery =20 Lyn Hejinian =20 =20 Raymond Federman =20 =20 Nick Piombino =20 =20 Marjorie Perloff =20 =20 & Charles Bernstein Kiosk is a journal of poetry, poetics, & experimental prose published = annually with the support of the Poetics Program and Department of = English at the State University of New York at Buffalo. This year's = edition of 276 pages (7 x 8 =BD) is perfect-bound, and printed on = off-white 65 lb. paper with cover art by Christopher Reitmaier. A $4.oo = check made out to Kiosk secures an annual subscription (overseas, please = add $1). And if you're in the neighborhood, Kiosk is also available = from Rust Belt Books.=20 Submissions of poetry, poetics, visual art, and experimental prose = accepted in hard copy format year round at the address below. Please = include a brief bio statement, and an SASE. Edited by Gordon Hadfield, Sasha Steensen, and Kyle Schlesinger. Please direct all inquiries, submissions, and subscriptions to the = editors at: Kiosk : A Journal of Poetry, Poetics, and Experimental Prose = =20 State University of New York at Buffalo = =20 Samuel Clemens Hall Room 306 = =20 Buffalo, New York 14260-4610 =20 (Note the new URL) On the Web at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/kiosk e-mail: kioskjournal@hotmail.com =20 Best Wishes to all, Kyle =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 06:28:29 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: Hawai'ian Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OH, but John, we do! The re-runs are terrific. aloha, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Tranter" To: Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Hawai'ian Haiku > Hawai'ian Haiku > > > In Honolulu > nobody watches > 'Hawaii Five-O'. > > > > J T ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 13:25:50 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 17 Sale.)//The (For//posting.) place//peels My//poster in//five is//for collections//upon a//look of//extraction landscape//procedures, sounds,//hammered bent//panels, windows,//pinches piles//of of//crusts, junk,//or and//oxidant godawful//clouds people//extruded contained//through by//no the//reason. storefront.//Extant Random//selections shelves//narrow group//down on//some the//used harsh//ideas curb//in to//repeating implicated//repeated capricious//mutters lines//or and//orienting invisible//aphasias. sounds//None I//is am//charged generalized//to to//explain write//me this//in with//bending faces,//swigs, anonymous//arms, and//a reflections,//or arbitrary//paper an//fallen fish//called rotting//memory "Miserable."//(Exceed.) named//"Forgotten". (Inquire//without). Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 13:46:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bodied Tone endemic: the = comic Myoclonic cuticle=20 chutes the catwalk jerks the lute,=20 its = meaning the = chronic ballad renders=20 dance: sub-atomic membranes Sound, its tendered inflections engendered anemic counts, a bloodline leading gene clefs Register=20 epics dissonance as its Cluster (originally published in Lost and Found Times) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:23:21 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: sending poems to the list - a polite request In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20020803093112.00a0a380@wheresmymailserver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit those of you who are sending poems to the list-- could you please mention this in your subject heading...? (so people who are interested in the poetics side of the list can deal with them accordingly). Thank you. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:19:38 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 18 Push fish peels into five locks for landscape extraction procedures. Bend window panels, eat crust pinches, make piles of hammers. Look, the godawful oxidant clouds (I saw those people extruded through no reason). Storefront. Not one I generalizes you, not if written with bending anonymous arms or with axed rotting memories misnamed "Forgotten". (Inquire without). Extant random selections shelve narrow groups. Down on some ideas lulled into curbing repeated implicating mutters? Ask about whatever happened to our capricious invisible aphasias, the ones we never had. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:39:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: BlazeVOX2k2 Comments: To: "Edward R. Pope" In-Reply-To: <3D4AD9FD.95CC18DF@u.arizona.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, BlazeVOX2k2 has had a problem due to servers acting up. Please try this link to get there :-) Sorry for any inconveniences :-) http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/blaze/ Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 http://www.daemen.edu/pages/ggatza/blaze/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru -----Original Message----- From: Edward R. Pope [mailto:erpope@u.arizona.edu] Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 3:14 PM To: ggatza@daemen.edu Subject: vorplesword down? I'm having problems accessing www.vorpleword.com. Has the URL changed or has it been removed from the server? Your work is most interesting and I was so glad to learn about it (from Dr. Ed Clausen at Daemen) and that you would let us include it on our CIEL website (http://www.cielearn.org/daemen_work.php). If you have a photograph of yourself we could include, I would appreciate your sending it. Right now there is an image from the vorplesword website itself, serving as a reference to the project. Again, thanks, and I'll look forward hearing from you. Ted Pope Professor Arizona International College The University of Arizona ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Growing pains MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I would vote for no change if the listowner and moderator are considering any such thing. As far as I'm concerned it works well like it is and has established itself over the years as the premier site of poetry and poetry gossip despite incursions by attention seekers. some news some gossip some quips some ads keeps me alive and writing there is a phenomenon on the internet of people joining lists without looking through the archives to see what they are getting into and then wanting to change what they are getting. For example, Alan's poems and other occasional poems have been a part of the list for years. I may be getting old but I'd like some stability in my life. Would like to see a return of the rengas but I think that's not easily done. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:42:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Subject: Poem: Unintentional Haiku Spoken in my Sleep MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But if I draw you=20 twice on my brown pad, then I=20 can keep both of you. ---------- Laura http://laurable.com Listening to poetry does not contribute to carpal tunnel Poetry Audio Links Over 450 poets and 2,750 audio links ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 17:36:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ". sandra" Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here is my contribution: press words on answer device postponed meeting key holder as name in stripe a full kingdom of free trading hours: machine of washing distance drying eyes to eclipse found but not seen sweat is for when time ceased to meet sharper one hour for sufficient / time effaces better than muteness than water ---------- yours .sandra guerreiro ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE CAVE CHILDREN OF NEW YORK ARE NEVER FREE Honus Cobb met the ways his trap kelpt dustive turnder. No else could think talk that way. Why ways followed where O wanted, how tabulating counted for exit chase doomster. I ist nomeromerorder ismist. There a tunx, placent chabbers belded avouled ert trobuleyant. Come out of it as mobile pragmite, taken venom molder anti-unti cursive, played out button ammo. Knock turn hammer change-up tool blend. Only looking yo U but not A vowelese. This modern whore furnace muscled down he'lls, else we'd all go where'd a noun clout could make it big, a bit like a legendary ball-hop back some game ago. A sport aches overly fluent rousting felt Roman, dirty ile & all that. mIEKAL aND erosive missive http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/erosive_media/beginterwrite2.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 17:10:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dan raphael Subject: Send a Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A fairly recent poem, written in a brew pub in seattle Genetically Modified Rain rain stomps down my face like a juice with legs=97 face-time i cant face the place walls shedding like tarantulas while fundamentalists of the silly get their beaks in a satellite twisting former belongings til they rise begging for seeds to hitchhike on the back of the world like a highly compressed & = divergent slinky carving stairways into cheese-board i thicken with delight with positive = alignment of weather, attitude and altitude=97a 6 point compass with holographic = predictions rolling dice for every person in the world every second, voice talking = bout low pressure data fronts, information stagnation, record highs til the dawn of two long muscular legs, hair like well-ironed raven = wings a 12 story building could hide inside cubing its own history with walls of unwrapped packages change shape with the wind speed & dow = jones of microbial muscle-exchange follows the mitochondria back to 7 mothers changing the world with 7-fngered godlngs, as if 1 continent = internalized in each of us looking from the inside out our impermissible coast lines warped from = birth by cloth and design. like when i get somewhere ive never been that seems familiar, as each coin remembers its mold=97the shape moms = canal assumed=97 such narrow connections between such large worlds as if each notch in the coastline is a soul=92s cycle, notches in the = lungs gun: each april i wake up chewing til im solid again like a glacier so deep in the back of my head i hear it echoing where memory has not yet moved in ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: New Address: Lipstick Eleven (East) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The east coast address of Lipstick Eleven is now: Lipstick Eleven c/o Kathy Lou Schultz 1006 North 4th Street, #1 Philadelphia, PA 19123 The west coast address remains the same. Thanks, Kathy Lou ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kathy Lou Schultz http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:47:57 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: FW: Style Issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You say Web site, I say website, you say Login I say Log on, let's call the whole thing off: "Orthographic rules are not made for the net." http://www.sexyjazz.de/world/d2k/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:00:30 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: a poem with poetics in it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le petit train Confused over his relationship with his stepfather, believed to be his = father, he wrote a great deal about him (hereinafter referred to as = "father"). Quotations indicate that introspection is about to occur, as = in Henry James. Buddhist stories end by pulling the rug out from under = the reader, while sweeping as little as possible under. My toys under = dere! "It takes a lot of hard work to publish a book, I know," she said, = meaning the library was not interested in mine. (Little did we know it = had the first.) I want go airport! He went to Paris to sort out the = parental relation, and the racism that enclosed him like a box. They = acted out "Boxcar! Boxcar! Boxcar!" in class, while I smoked. The train = is talking, he says, when it hoots. He began his life as Jumbo, but the = white women elephants renamed him Dumbo, mercilessly attacking his = prolific ears; only later in the film does Dumbo meet the Jim Crows, = whose magic feather enables him to fly. Disney bought the miners' = stories for $150K each. That we write collages may dispirit us, letting = in the very material we want expurgated, or at least investigated. To be = led away in handcuffs is the poet's dream, if not for defrauding the = public of their 401(K)s: we regret to inform you that your poetic legacy = has been spent unwisely and that you will be unable to pursue your love = of it in retirement. Lacking water sports, they seek the indoor life. I = remember his drooping eyes, and above all his voice. Cigarette smoke, = and the sound of whiskey in his throat. Who has not filled his baggage = by age 20 will not have a life as a writer, his elder said. I know I = can, I know I can. Who is not part of me can still remember me.=20 Susan M. Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:25:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 3 New BeeHive Microtitles !! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE !! THREE NEW RELEASES !! BEEHIVE MICROTITLES http://microtitles.com __________________________________________ __________________________________________ BeeHive is pleased to announce the release of three new Series 1 Microtitles. THE PHENOMENOLOGY OF APPROACH by Alan Sondheim RECITATIF by Sheila Murphy TRANSLUCIDITY by Talan Memmott ** Series 1 Microtitles are short experimental fiction and essay titles in Adobe PDF format. Lightweight, portable, disposable -- not quite books, these ebook[lets] are specially formatted for the Adobe Acrobat Reader for Palm OS. *** http://microtitles.com __________________________________________ __________________________________________ Celebrate BeeHive's 5th year online with the *new* issue of the BeeHive Journal =2E... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/ issue 5:1 includes .... > THE MEDDLESOME PASSENGER ~ scott rettberg > _][AD][DRESSED IN A SKIN C.ODE_ ~ mez > PANHANDLE ~ jason nelson > BJSK ~ chistophe ballange And much, much, *much* more .... __________________________________________ __________________________________________ trAce Online Writing School Now is the perfect time to book a course to begin studying with us in September. Registration is open until Monday 9th September and there is a =A310 GBP discount for bookings via our new e-commerce site: http://www.tracecentreshop.com/ All courses are now ten weeks long including a free induction week run by the trAce team. Courses include: * Hypertext and its Double - Talan Memmott * Experimental Writing - Alan Sondheim * Designing Web-Based Narratives - Carolyn Guertin * Short Fiction - Kate Pullinger * Web Design Workshop - Randy Adams All of our courses are 100% online and are open to students around the world. A tour of our virtual learning environment is available and can easily be arranged by contacting Catherine Gillam by emailing either catherine.gillam@ntu.ac.uk or traceschool@ntu.ac.uk __________________________________________ __________________________________________ http://beehive.temporalimage.com/ http://microtitles.com beehive@percepticon.com __________________________________________ __________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 20:54:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Re: Send a Poem to Poetics In-Reply-To: <006801c239a8$9876b2c0$8f9966d8@pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT W TAKES THE PLEDGE I dredge malfeasance to a bag of entitled fates of amorous polka, and to the repugnant in each bandstand, one ovation's thunder odd, indefensible, with libertines and iced juice for all. - Ron Starr ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 00:31:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Send a Poem to Poetics In-Reply-To: <3D4C42F7.5183.F2CD13@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Universe Is Beige=20 For Donna It looks like beige,=20 I don't know what else to call it.=20 I would welcome suggestions.=20 Karl Glazebrook* Nothing begins by wishing for empty beige dreams=20 Scant open edges of the continuum a concept encompassment think is the color "beige"?=20 both sides, or lurking towards Beige is and beige is not=20 Some off-whitish, sandish, light-tanish type of thing, perhaps?=20 m=92kay, I like to think of it as a mixture of two colors,=20 m=92kay fair haired yellow and ivory.=20 The American experience realize don't recognize I see being=20 various unique external pressures=20 become the I see beige=20 American in peril in a constant struggle within=20 society | friends | and family as the perfect strive state=20 What exactly brings about the American experience?=20 growing up in Americana as unique in that they endure things=20 Beige is the perfect consistently trying to balance a rich culture with a modem=20 Western life=20 Beige is the universe you will find denying and assimilating, entirely immersing respect and rejecting societal surrounding, juggling between inner-reconciliation only at balance points between seeking and attainment=20 Beige is and beige is not=20 an ideal goal being beige is crucial=20 shed light in shards=20 eyes open * Color Them Red: The Universe is Beige March 7, 2002 AP BALTIMORE, March 7 -- Astronomers who announced in January (see The Cosmic Spectrum and the Color of the Universe By Karl Glazebrook & Ivan Baldry http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~kgb/cosspec/)that they'd determined the color of the universe will publish a paper on their broader results in April. When they do, the footnote describing the color of the universe finding will cite beige, not the originally announced turquoise.=20 "It's our fault for not taking the color science seriously enough," said an apologetic Karl Glazebrook, an assistant professor of astronomy in the Krieger School of Arts and Sciences at The Johns Hopkins University. "I'm very embarrassed. I don't like being wrong, but once I found out I was, I knew I had to get the word out."=20 Glazebrook noted that before the color finding's odd nature led to widespread public interest, it was originally just a footnote to a comprehensive survey of the spectrum of light emitted by 200,000 galaxies. He and co-author Ivan Baldry, a Hopkins postdoctoral fellow, had set out to simply compile a "cosmic spectrum" based on data gathered by the Australian 2dF Galaxy Redshift Survey. =09 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:43:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Free Beer All Night in NJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit how think a canoe? db -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Free Beer All Night in NJ >>are you in the area? >>RB > >I always am. > >gb > >> > cannot drink will send students smassoni@aol.com >> > > > >-- >George Bowering >How can I thank you? >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 04:28:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: poem MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT with a nod to Ron and MiEKAL Up again. Fun Damental DA Mental fun. daDA Alexis arises and jumps through the house. Are granddaughters bloomed or do they bloom? Closed in congestion in the air here, in the bowels of the land, the middle of Tennessee at close to a hundred and humid, heavy. Subdivisions sprawl. Qwikstops encroach. NASCAR Hooters ProCup on the tube later. Or in the tube? And breathe. Dilemmas. The world is not my father. Honus Wagner. Grantland Rice tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:10:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: oracle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII oracle of the 26 gates, 1000 character classic transform heaven ~ earth ~ black ~ yellow :: heaven is black, earth is yellow ~ the cosmos ~ the cosmos ~ are vast ~ a desolate wasteland ~ the sun fills ~ the moon fills ~ the sun sets in the west ~ it's dusk ~ morning round ~ the constellations ~ line up ~ it's a measure word, they spread out ~ cold ~ comes ~ the heat ~ goes ~ in autumn ~ the harvesting ~ in winter ~ the hiding, concealing ~ intercalary timing ~ the leftover residue ~ becomes one tenth ~ measurement of years ~ so the lu ~ bamboo pitches ~ shift position ~ open ~ clouds ~ ascend, galloping, ~ sending ~ rain ~ dew ~ forms ~ becoming ~ frost ~ gold ~ gives birth ~ beautiful ~ water ~ jade ~ emanates out ~ from Kun mountain ~ summit ~ the double-edged dagger ~ furiously named ~ the huge ~ gate-tower ~ the pearl ~ called ~ the light ~ of darkness ~ the treasure ~ of fruit ~ plum ~ apple ~ many ~ vegetables ~ mustard ~ ginger ~ the sea ~ salted ~ the rivers ~ fresh ~ fishscales ~ glimmering ~ depth-hidden ~ feathers ~ circling above ~ the fire ~ dragon ~ the emperor ~ teaching ~ the phoenix ~ the royal ~ official ~ men ~ beginning ~ making ~ writing ~ characters ~ wearing clothing ~ expel ~ the throne ~ yield ~ the country ~ yao ~ tang ~ has ~ predicted ~ console ~ the people ~ strike down ~ the guilty ~ hold ~ the boundary ~ talk ~ and test with scalding ~ trying a case ~ at court ~ query ~ the way ~ bequeath ~ and bow ~ doubting ~ the sections ~ love the people ~ [...] ~ minister ~ prostrate ~ carrying weapons ~ [...] ~ the name ~ stands ~ [...] ~ cause ~ of evil ~ [...] ~ many ~ men ~ [...] ~ dwell ~ in leisure ~ [...] ~ good ~ wonderful ~ [...] ~ question or problem ~ [...] ~ a gate ~ oracle of the gates a desolate wasteland and bow and test with scalding apple are vast ascend, galloping, at court bamboo pitches beautiful becomes one tenth becoming beginning bequeath black called carrying weapons cause characters circling above clouds cold comes console dew doubting dragon dwell earth emanates out expel feathers fishscales forms fresh early morning west the throne the treasure the way then trying a case, officials, water, wonderful writing yao yellow ~ heaven is black, earth is yellow yield oracle machine oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj; wc jj oracle < jj > kk; wc kk oracle < kk > jj _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: oracle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII oracle tenth of the [...] name [...] prostrate weapons the fresh hidden depths concealing timing leftover becomes tenth of [...] in the teaching of [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] of [...] or [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] of [...] or [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] of [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] of [...] or [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] of [...] in morning constellations wasteland sun the [...] name [...] [...] or [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] of [...] or [...] men dwell inhabit home [...] wonderful question problem woman gate _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:58:33 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 19 Down on some ideas? Lulled into mutters? Whatever happened to the aphasias we never had? Look, the godawful Storefront. "Eat piles of hammers." No bending arm evaporates memories. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:52:42 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: Re: RESORT OF A REPLY (bogie) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed WORDS well this was originally supposed to be a note but i have a tendency to overdue things, you should know that the words that themselves are almost nothing hide the true world the one that we always sense beyond our sarcasm and laughing games in and around our poetry or here yes why not call it friendship _________________________________________________________________ På MSN hittar du det roliga, intressanta och användbara på internet: http://www.msn.se ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:19:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Lusk Subject: Re: Attacks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" alan: keep up the good dork! I esp.liked the sixties cnnd heat memoirs al beast, trujillo At 04:39 PM 7/30/02 -0400, you wrote: >subjected to a poetry that embodies the dead author, the irrelevant >audience, and the moot text. Is mechanized, compulsive, humorless, >ultra-violent ultra-pornographic faux computer jibberish all we have left? > > >Where is the dead author? >The audience is highly relevant; I have enough of at least a dedicated >following for it. I _care_ that the texts are read. >Moot text? The texts are pretty understandable; I know that from the more >or less constant back-channel I get. >Ultra-violent? Most of them have no violence at all. Look at the the 1000 >Character Essay transformations for example. >Ultra-pornographic? - I don't find the work arousing; I doubt very many >people do. Look at the text about malignancy a few days ago - whether you >like it or not, it's political, hardly exciting. >Faux computer? No, real computer, programs, routines, commands, and heavy >editing. The programs are in perl, awk, shell script, occasionally moo >language (not recently). >Jibberish? Absolutely; I'm sure Marjorie Perloff would agree! >All we have left? I think if anything I'm in the minority here, but then >so are Mez, NN, Memmott, Solipsis, and a whole lot of other people. Look >at the o-o, arc_hive, syndicate, 7-11, and other lists. > >Look at that issue of American Book Review I did a year ago with Florian >Cramer, Talan Memmott, and others in it - if anything, codework, such as >it is, is embodying a new, if not revolutionary, poetics, one based on >submerged and activated/performative structures, machinics, etc. > >It seems to me that there's a double-edged dagger here - or a rolling >stone gathering no moss - or a stitch in time. > >Anyway, there's a poetic avant-garde, which none of us are part of; >there's a continuous recycling of the same poetics/langpo/aesthetics/ >discussions ever since I've been on Poetics at least. Not to mention the >old L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E mags which I've just been looking through. Not to >mention a huge number of current mags and probably future mags. > >And then there are people embracing networking, protocols, collaborations, >performatives, inter- and intra- nets, hackings, languages (perl, shell, >awk, etc.), softwares (flash, director, etc.) - and who have been doing >this for years - and for the most part, the traditional writers are >absolutely blind to the poetics of this - for example Tranter talking >about (I think it was him) this work being churned out - it takes just as >long to write as anything else - not to mention the initial programming, >etc. etc. - if such is used - > >This work is never recognized, never supported, except for a few places >such as trAce. I get republished a lot online, but not by traditional >poetry mags. > >The differences are enormous. And it's as if langpo has suddenly discov- >ered some of this - look at Glazier's book - my first work along this line >was 1973, first publications in 1977... > >Then there is hacker writing, the Jargon file, all of these other jargons/ >dialects, things coming to the foreground. These are exciting times for >look at LANGUAGE AS A PROBLEM, not as a given to be endlessly abstracted >and brought back a la langpo. What happens w/ a program that must be >EXACTLY written to function as desired, against or interspersed with >natural language? Just look at the history of google.com! > >Then there's Andy Oram's recent talk on the intensive textuality of >regular expressions - in other words, their poetics - in relation to >McLuhan's problematizing of electronic media and the dispersal of the >Word. ... > >Anway, I care obviously if people hate the stuff - and for them it is >_stuff,_ - but the problem is that this is accompanied in so many ways by >ignorance of the issues, no matter how many times I/we try to clarify >them. > >Alan > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: Send a Poem to POETICS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Infomercial The George Foreman grill will open the heavens to the possibilities. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Gallaher" To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 4:08 PM Subject: Send a Poem to POETICS! > Well, > > In light of recent discussions on the list, I think it would be nice if > everyone posted a poem. > > A little poem anthology. A poem a day project. A publication > opportunity. Art. Promotion. Advertising, Baby. > > So, who's first? > > Best, > JGallaher > > > J Gallaher > > Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:08:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: another poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Granada Lorca was shot in the head by men who wore hats with tassels The sofa is covered in plastic with holes for the tassels and fringe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dorothy Trujillo Lusk" To: Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:19 AM Subject: Re: Attacks > alan: > keep up the good dork! I esp.liked the sixties cnnd heat memoirs > al beast, trujillo > > > At 04:39 PM 7/30/02 -0400, you wrote: > >subjected to a poetry that embodies the dead author, the irrelevant > >audience, and the moot text. Is mechanized, compulsive, humorless, > >ultra-violent ultra-pornographic faux computer jibberish all we have left? > > > > > >Where is the dead author? > >The audience is highly relevant; I have enough of at least a dedicated > >following for it. I _care_ that the texts are read. > >Moot text? The texts are pretty understandable; I know that from the more > >or less constant back-channel I get. > >Ultra-violent? Most of them have no violence at all. Look at the the 1000 > >Character Essay transformations for example. > >Ultra-pornographic? - I don't find the work arousing; I doubt very many > >people do. Look at the text about malignancy a few days ago - whether you > >like it or not, it's political, hardly exciting. > >Faux computer? No, real computer, programs, routines, commands, and heavy > >editing. The programs are in perl, awk, shell script, occasionally moo > >language (not recently). > >Jibberish? Absolutely; I'm sure Marjorie Perloff would agree! > >All we have left? I think if anything I'm in the minority here, but then > >so are Mez, NN, Memmott, Solipsis, and a whole lot of other people. Look > >at the o-o, arc_hive, syndicate, 7-11, and other lists. > > > >Look at that issue of American Book Review I did a year ago with Florian > >Cramer, Talan Memmott, and others in it - if anything, codework, such as > >it is, is embodying a new, if not revolutionary, poetics, one based on > >submerged and activated/performative structures, machinics, etc. > > > >It seems to me that there's a double-edged dagger here - or a rolling > >stone gathering no moss - or a stitch in time. > > > >Anyway, there's a poetic avant-garde, which none of us are part of; > >there's a continuous recycling of the same poetics/langpo/aesthetics/ > >discussions ever since I've been on Poetics at least. Not to mention the > >old L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E mags which I've just been looking through. Not to > >mention a huge number of current mags and probably future mags. > > > >And then there are people embracing networking, protocols, collaborations, > >performatives, inter- and intra- nets, hackings, languages (perl, shell, > >awk, etc.), softwares (flash, director, etc.) - and who have been doing > >this for years - and for the most part, the traditional writers are > >absolutely blind to the poetics of this - for example Tranter talking > >about (I think it was him) this work being churned out - it takes just as > >long to write as anything else - not to mention the initial programming, > >etc. etc. - if such is used - > > > >This work is never recognized, never supported, except for a few places > >such as trAce. I get republished a lot online, but not by traditional > >poetry mags. > > > >The differences are enormous. And it's as if langpo has suddenly discov- > >ered some of this - look at Glazier's book - my first work along this line > >was 1973, first publications in 1977... > > > >Then there is hacker writing, the Jargon file, all of these other jargons/ > >dialects, things coming to the foreground. These are exciting times for > >look at LANGUAGE AS A PROBLEM, not as a given to be endlessly abstracted > >and brought back a la langpo. What happens w/ a program that must be > >EXACTLY written to function as desired, against or interspersed with > >natural language? Just look at the history of google.com! > > > >Then there's Andy Oram's recent talk on the intensive textuality of > >regular expressions - in other words, their poetics - in relation to > >McLuhan's problematizing of electronic media and the dispersal of the > >Word. ... > > > >Anway, I care obviously if people hate the stuff - and for them it is > >_stuff,_ - but the problem is that this is accompanied in so many ways by > >ignorance of the issues, no matter how many times I/we try to clarify > >them. > > > >Alan > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:38:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: More Mixed Up Books at Arthur Andersen (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Lorenzo Thomas passed this on. Today's Houston Chronicle (Saturday, 2 August) reveals yet another twist in the Enron/Arthur Andersen debacle. See the article entitled "A writer is not a writer . . ." by Mary Flood on the Op-Ed page (via the Internet at http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1519752 A writer is not a writer . . . As if getting a guilty verdict against withering accounting firm Arthur Andersen wasn't enough, now the federal government is challenging the firm's literary sophistication. Andersen, found guilty of obstruction of justice by a Houston jury in June, asked U.S. District Judge Melinda Harmon for a new trial in the shredding case. In doing so, its lawyers called the verdict illegitimate and said, "the government's case thus brings to mind Virginia Woolf's famous observation: There is no 'there' there." This week the U.S. Department of Justice's Enron Task Force filed its opposition to Andersen's new trial request, using the same quote but noting its author was Gertrude Stein. Andrew Weissmann, the prosecutor who penned the government response, uses a footnote to tell the judge, "the barb was made by Stein, not Woolf, in reference to Oakland, Calif." "I hope they realize it was an innocent mistake and we are not looking at another indictment," said Rusty Hardin, Andersen's Houston lawyer. Weissmann said they will not be taking the literary infraction to a grand jury. "We understand mistakes happen, and we imagine Mr. Hardin's copy of Gertrude Stein's work has been shredded." Andersen's motion was kind of close. Both women were turn-of-the-century feminist writers who died in the 1940s and both were known for the circle of fellow writers, poets and artists they cultivated to create fashionable and thoughtful salons. But Stein, an American living mostly in Paris, was known for her insightful writing and her oddly wise grammatical play. Her most famous work is The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas, her own memoir named for her lover. She also, however, was known for statements like: "A rose is a rose is a rose," to make the point that a thing is what it is; and, "There's no there there," to comment on her dissatisfaction with American suburbia. Woolf was a British author whose husband edited and published some of her work after she killed herself. Her best-known work may be A Room of One's Own. Judge Harmon, a graduate of Radcliffe, is likely to both appreciate a proper literary citation and find against Andersen's fairly hopeless motion that the case be set aside or retried. Mary Flood Hope the rest of your summer is happy & literate! Lorenzo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:42:46 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: RESORT OF A REPLY (bogie) - variations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nothing itself is almost words. There is no true world; the world's unreliable. What seems the white radiance of eternity's a reflection from the streetlight, staining credibility. Hide the true world? A tendency to. To almost nothing, friendship originally intressanta och användbara internet. Call it! You should sense beyond the almost nothing. Olidlighet? Laughing games have a tendency to poetry. Sense poetry here? Friendship... Nothing themselves are. You should know, supposed to be. The one that we themselves are, sarcasm always beyond, a tendency, the true world a hide. Hittar du. Words hide the world, originally nothing. Hide sarcasm. Words hide the words in and around vänskap L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saneh Saadati" To: Sent: 04 August 2002 09:52 Subject: Re: RESORT OF A REPLY (bogie) | WORDS | | well this was originally | supposed to be a note | but i have a tendency to | overdue things, | you should know | | that the words that | themselves are | almost nothing | hide the true world | | the one that we | always sense beyond | our sarcasm and | laughing games | in and around our | poetry or here | yes why not call it | friendship | | | | _________________________________________________________________ | På MSN hittar du det roliga, intressanta och användbara på internet: | http://www.msn.se | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: Soli Psis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Soli Psis Subject: wild rooster scratching the rocks into Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, collagepoetry@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wild rooster scratching the rocks into What little they know of GODSPLUNDT: Hoopoe mak aka munci lag banak hal nakar=20 Hoopoe waji yan bil ditinggalka berdoa tura Upupa epops: dukhifat kakufa=20 kufat kufat=20 upupa hudhud tarnegol bara nagar tura GODSPLUNDT: it has a coxcomb and has the trait of pecking because its majesty is double=20 because it has the trait of scratching at the rock du kifat;=20 which is to say that it makes two of the rock,=20 for rocks and mountains are called kefim, as in,=20 "They clamber up the rocks (u-va-kefim alu)" the dukhifat is known as the symbol of foul odor,=20 since it builds its nest of feces=20 and the odor adheres to it and its chicks Hoopoe apak muakkad ata tida huppe Hoopoe susungguhn ak taku shala witi it diwajibka kepad Tosafot=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:50:38 -0700 Reply-To: Soli Psis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Soli Psis Subject: Po'om Yja (some unicode elements may not display properly) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Po'om Yja =20 arar=C3=B3boe ko =E6=88=91=E5=8F=B8=E6=9C=89=E4=BF=A1 4111 Bells, arendeg=C3=A1 jah=C3=BD, jah=C3=BD, ko, jah=C3=BD, jah=C3=BD =20 kwarah=C3=BD, kwarah=C3=BD kwarah=C3=BD, kwarah=C3=BD =20 Excellent in adhesives when blended with=20 =E5=B0=8E=E7=89=87=20 phenolic resins.=20 Requires milling=20 to form ko-solutions aiakau-he =20 4111 Bells, aiakau-he=20 =E7=89=87=E6=8E=A8=E8=96=A6 ywa-pironga =20 ywa-hona ko =20 semente preta=20 Cahi, txah=C3=BDa =20 ken dormir 4111 Bells =20 gi=C3=B2ng s=C3=B4ng Neckar arendeg=C3=A1 =20 th=C6=A1 m=E1=BB=99ng, v=E1=BB=9Bi to=C3=A0 l=C3=A2u =C4=91=C3=A0i =E5=90=8D=E5=B0=8E=E6=8E=A8 =20 x=C3=A2y t=E1=BB=AB th=E1=BA=BF k=E1=BB=B7 14 v=C3=A0 ko chi=E1=BA=BFc c=E1=BA=A7u c=E1=BB=95 k=C3=ADnh,=20 l=C3=A0 m=E1=BB=99t th=C3=A0nh ph=E1=BB=91 =C4=91=E1=BA=B9p=20 n=E1=BB=95i ti=E1=BA=BFng c=E1=BB=A7a n=C6=B0=E1=BB=9Bc = =C4=90=E1=BB=A9c, 4111 Bells =20 kh=E1=BA=AFp n=C6=A1i arendeg=C3=A1=20 =E5=BF=83=E6=8A=8A =20 contains 15 octanoat e molecules and 15 ko-sodium atoms=20 in an aqueous solution=20 containing 792 water mole cules in a cubic 31.1 =C3=85ngstrom box.=20 4111 ko-Bells=20 =E8=96=A6 =20 Sati's tongue fell=20 at Jwalaji (610 m)=20 and the goddess is manifest=20 as tiny flames that burn=20 flawless blue=20 =E7=91=9E=E7=BF=81 through fissures=20 in the age-old rock=20 4111 Bells =20 ywy, iwi, ywy, iwi, ywy, iwi, =E5=90=8D=E5=B0=8E =20 ywy, iwi, ywykai, iwikai, =20 ywykai, iwikai, ywykai, iwikai, 4111 Bells arendeg=C3=A1 =E6=BC=94=E5=90=8D=20 konomi koruk kwarapam kwoipy=C3=A1wa =E6=8E=A8 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Teichman Subject: Re: philosophers on poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The general disinterest in poetry shown by contemporary Anglophone philosophy is undeniable, but might be simply a reflection of (1) a tradition of other main interests holding center stage and (2) a general sociocultural consensus here and now that serious poetry is of strictly marginal specialist interest. It need not reflect some pernicious lack in the way the (best) analytic philosophy is pursued, or rule out the possibility that some of the last century's copious 'analytical' work in semantics might be of some relevance in understanding poetic meaning. It astounds me that Saussure is still taken seriously in poetic circles as he struggles to explain the ordinary meaning of words like 'mouton' or 'arbre' (a laudable effort in itself) while ignoring Mallarme, surely the main thrust of the primitive semantic theory of the Cours, while Frege and his successors are deemed not worthy of study at all, presumably because they are thought (wrongly) to have dealt only with uninteresting mathematical expressions and to have been some sort of 'positivists'. The question originally asked about philosophers writing about poetry might be turned around: how many serious poets or critics are capable of understanding or have taken any trouble seriously to understand some of the good work in modern Anglophone philosophy? Getting off-track slightly, some recent books by a (here little-known) Frenchman, Jean-Pierre Cometti, who is familiar with contemporary analytic philosophy, have tried to indicate a path towards a Wittgensteinian treatment of contemporary art (the focus is on visual/performance/installation art, but there are some remarks on poetry) which seems to me rather suggestive (and much more cognizant of what Wittgenstein was about than, say, Perloff): La Maison de Wittgenstein Art, modes d'emploi L'Art sans qualities Jacques Bouveresse's book Dire et ne rien dire, treating the philosophy of nonsense after Frege and Wittgenstein, may also turn out to hold something of value for poetic aesthetics. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jessica smith Subject: Re: sending poems to the list - a polite request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit poetry & poetics are inseparable... i suppose that not everyone can be happy with the way the list is run all the time... but, Barbara, you're getting poetry (for free! to your own computer!) from some of the most interesting poets writing today, and you're (politely) wishing that you could ignore them more easily? count yourself lucky to be on a listserv where poetry offers so clear a window into poetics. And buy the new issue of Verdure, which might give you more of what you want. [also the Niedecker can be found cheaper and is, yes, definitely worth the money (since the only other option is Bertholf's version, which is really, really expensive)...I thought there was a paperback version forthcoming? anyone know?] also Alan, i think it's probably not helpful to divide the list into Language and non-Language (ha) camps. so-called Language poets aren't all poetics all the time (here's Ron defending the idea of poetry on the list by posting his own work); and people who've complained about your work aren't the same people as the Language poets (if i remember correctly, Charles and Barrett have both defended your right to post poetry). Everybody on the list (presumably) likes poetry, likes reading about poetry (poetics), likes hearing about where to see or hear poetry (so they can go or buy)... so if any of you guys don't want to read a certain kind of message, get your messages digest-ed and just scroll through. Or if you want to read fully-fledged poetics (which is also sometimes poetry, ie A Poetics), go to the library... I think it's fantastic to see (new) poetry that entails or instigates new ways of thinking about poetry (--> poetics) (sandra guerreiro's work, for instance). keep it comin'. Jessica > those of you who are sending poems to the list-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:51:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Re: Send a Poem to Poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a red wheel barrow so much depends upon William Carlos Williams (6/24/02) Sylvester Pollet ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:47:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: Re: Send a Poem to Poetics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >so much depends >upon technological literacy -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:55:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: philosophers on poetry? In-Reply-To: <000001c23bcd$7e925950$94a8accf@D7QK3Y01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:42 AM -0400 8/4/02, Harold Teichman wrote: >The general disinterest in poetry shown by contemporary Anglophone >philosophy is undeniable... i've been puzzled about this for some time. isn't it "uninterest"? i thought disinterest meant something quite different --impartiality. but enough well-educated people have been using "disinterest" that i've started to wonder. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:10:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: More Mixed Up Books at Arthur Andersen (fwd) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT But there is a "here" here. And writers can't be "not"? Up again. Fun Damental DA Mental fun. daDA Alexis arises and jumps through the house. Are granddaughters bloomed or do they bloom? Closed in congestion in the air here, in the bowels of the land, the middle of Tennessee at close to a hundred and humid, heavy. Subdivisions sprawl. Qwikstops encroach. NASCAR Hooters ProCup on the tube later. Or in the tube? And breathe. Dilemmas. The world is not my father. Honus Wagner. Grantland Rice The vision of Gertrude Srein's work being shredded made my day! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:15:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gm9 Subject: Re: Send a Poem MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Summer acrostic hotshot Urgent as a somnambulist. Create in me a clean heart, Zardoz-- Krazy-glue gentile moyels upon me. Orangutans, start your gonads: Not one of you gets out of Zaire alive. The thing I learned at scribe camp: Hermes is vowels. Gramivores In igloos eat more teeth. So much for that Hummer the Orotund senator sent round-- She got spotted on the parkway, naked, imploring Apaches to land. "My, what cheesy palms you have, Sir Swithin." All I ever wanted was free beer. XOXO Rodney Koeneke ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: poem: something old In-Reply-To: <001201c23b99$5a6ca5a0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit regale / 11.nov.97 cilia wet intone the solid silt and craving how it must in lie the roa+ing ocean the scant and myriad fallen tears wrench in millimeters token newborn how far and so it is fa+ so far a farm a challenge child to be summed the previous imitations of transits from worker to the birther the total of all re+ents this thou wilt the mighty dandelion! it be that that the artist resembles whom you are womb we p+ay into stay yes beware yonder one night sliver a hopping good time and having become the mad hatter silver time transforms as to all as we all said and drunk alive ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:28:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Send a Poem In-Reply-To: <3D4D5323.ECE81A3@pacbell.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit THE PROOF of the pudding is in the heart attack-- if i could i would pat your blood on the back KSM 8/4/02 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:58:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: "Joining the lost generation" by George Bowering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable housepress is pleased to announce the release of=20 "Joining the Lost Generation" by George Bowering published in an edition of 100 handbound and numbered copies. $5.00ea. George Bowering is the author of over 40 books of poetry, prose, = criticism, memoir and history. His work won the Governor-General's award = in 1969 and 1980, his most recent book is "A Magpie LIfe: growing a = writer" (Key Porter, 2001).=20 for more information, or to order copies, contact derek beaulieu derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:06:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: poem: something new MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sentences / 3.aug.02 the chocolate and the almond of the specific smell of my one taste of it it is here. i drink coffee. the binding of the book makes books the reading of the book makes me. in one into. so when the sound moves me so when the sound moves. here is the fever she claims. in the light in the entry in the wheelchair she reclaims a leadership book. who leads the readers themselves. five so-called experiments show all the finitude of creation solitude so much words and non-essential syntax. separate you. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:19:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Fw: another poem from the ongoing exercises by Messerli MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Messerli To: Douglas Messerli Date: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: another poem from the ongoing exercises by Messerli Cole Swensen wrote: This is great! And it reminds me of something = Michael Friedman was doing last year, and that was to have people give him "outlines" for = poems, to which he'd then write the poem. Cole listed a rather long and complex outline with = five sections, but I chose one section alone, section 4: Gradual retreat of the = point-of-view, allowing broader and broader perspective. Perhaps I'll attempt all five elements later. =20 SPACE (2) It was the ant on my arm and not the older woman I was holding up that made me giggle--the coincidence of my mother's sister staring into space while I was so intensely focused on the field of weeds my body hair had accidentally invented for the small insect. A simple breeze brought the subject to its knees, and she looked up: Help me please! There was nothing I could do, even in the lift from where she'd gone I already knew the other was perfectly at home there. =20 29 June 2002 =20 =20 Generally, this is the very kind of poem I hate: a sort of short = narrative all plotted out and seemingly predigested. And with a very singular meaning yet! In the first version = it was even worse: I'd dramatized so thoroughly that I had a heliocopter speeding the old aunt away from = where (I'd had a final line) she would one day lay. Just awful! =20 But it was Cole's suggestion of the broadening of perspective that had = brought out the narrative--as in film almost. And since I truly had not planned it out, just beginning = instinctively with a focus on something very minute and particular, I kind of liked the poem in the end. I find = narrative so easy that I am sure I could find a way to link every thing I've ever read or done in some way. = So I often have to take the narrative and dramatic elements out of my work or the words would drown. = Yet when I work in fiction and drama, strangely enough, I can never imagine a plot--unless = it's that in which the aunt will soon find herself. =20 Douglas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:15:27 -0700 Reply-To: yan@pobox.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: after the fire: Aug 5th TONIC - 6x6/NewYorkNights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii August 5th at TONIC doors at 7:30 THE BENEFIT PARTY for 6x6 and New York Nights 6$ door-donation, with complimentary copy of 6x6#6, and other gifts from the presse In March, a fire destroyed the apt.-HQ of two of New York's very special periodicals: 6x6, a poetry journal put out by Ugly Duckling Presse since 2000, and the free newspaper New York Nights, a joint effort of Ugly Duckling and the Loudmouth Collective, on the street every three weeks since the war began in October. Many back issues and submissions were lost in the fire and resources for continuing publication were scarce. Though delayed by these events, the new New York Nights is out, and the new 6x6 is to be officially released at the party. 6x6 #6 is a two-year anniversary special issue, with hand-made cover. Ugly Duckling Presse is celebrating this release with readings, happenings, music and performances. MUSIC BY: LOUDMOUTH CHAMBER ENSEMBLE* 7:45pm Cynthia Hopkins (of GLORIA DELUXE) 9pm THE DRESDEN DOLLS 10pm MOTEL (the Matt Mottel Group) 11pm and surprise guests *There will be an interruption: A Science Project called GIVE & TAKE. READINGS (on the half-hour) BY: Lewis Warsh / Joe Elliott / Carlos Blackburn / Alicia Rabins / Steve Dalachinsky / Mark Lamoureux / Arielle Greenberg / Geoffrey Cruikshank-Hagenbuckle / Guillermo Juan Para / editors of 6x6 and N.Y.N. / and many more doors open at 7:30 TONIC is on Norfolk, near the corner of Delancey, across from Lansky's Lounge, in the LES. FOR MORE INFO CONTACT UGLY DUCKLiNG PRESSE, MATVEi YANKELEViCH 718-243-0046, ugly.duckling@pobox.com (if you've received this email twice, or in error, please let me know) --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:28:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peque=F1o?= Glazier Subject: Barrett Watten query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If anyone knows of a way to reach Barrett Watten (he does not seem to be replying to e-mail at the moment) please b/c. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:51:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: Send a Poem to Poetics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Joel Kuszai, please b.c at your convenience. At 11:47 AM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>so much depends >>upon > > >technological literacy > > > > > > > > > >-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:09:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" In-Reply-To: <20020803124813.72390.qmail@web11907.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Niedecker, Lorine >Collected Poems >University of California Press >April 2002 >(unfortunately) $ 45 Less than US$30 from buy.com: -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:22:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: philosophers on poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you're right about disinterest, at least you were right a few years ago mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:56 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: philosophers on poetry? > > > At 11:42 AM -0400 8/4/02, Harold Teichman wrote: > >The general disinterest in poetry shown by contemporary Anglophone > >philosophy is undeniable... > > i've been puzzled about this for some time. isn't it "uninterest"? i > thought disinterest meant something quite different --impartiality. but > enough well-educated people have been using "disinterest" that > i've started > to wonder. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:12:02 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: A Poem. To Be Continued. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed I. True- is reassuring, Truly is not. But keep that flicker of light, I know was there, still laughing with its playful mate, while you compose words to carry. There is a memory it flashes before you a constant aching, as you beg for the keeping of resistance. Stay true, I am too, here breathing your watchtower. How to remember without feeling, this something here with me, breathing you so quietly alive, this side of me, how do I know, that me here with so much equals not, you having to live something without. saneh saadati _________________________________________________________________ Med MSN Foto kan du enkelt dela med dig av dina fotografier och beställa kopior: http://photos.msn.se ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:20:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" True, as the jingle goes: I before E except after C. Oddly, a couple days ago I ran across some old letters I wrote when I visited Niedecker's grave, and I'd forgotten this, but on her tombstone it's spelled Neidecker. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Less than US$30 from buy.com: > > Thank you, Herb -- not to mention free shipping. I bought my copy. I haven't been this excited since receiving a copy of Steven Malmude's selected poems (Subpress/Goodbye, 2002)!!! Happy Sunday, everyone, -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: steve! In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I haven't been this excited since receiving a copy of Steven Malmude's > selected poems (Subpress/Goodbye, 2002)!!! > Will a poet's name go un-misspelled? make that "Stephen" or rather, Steve. As this is my last post of the day, I feel it must be more substantial, so here are two Malmude poems from _The Bundle: Selected Poems_ (Subpress/Goodbye, 2002): THE LITTLE DAUGHTERS Little daughters in the middle of the night why are you not asleep again yet? The stomping ground must always die down and be curtained away! But we don't mind being looked at we like it! We lie awake for hours with happiness actually. ONCE I EXPRESSED Once I expressed myself as someone who had summered with some artists when poverty was a thing of youth and shyness cost me nothing o for the puzzle of personalities copping their buzz on a regular basis at the first note of character I was not floated by art any more. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:15:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: A Poem. To Be Continued. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2. Authenticity is comforting, if one trusts provenance, some eye or other at a playmate freighting her with words from a sticky compositor; but otherwise still, white light of a sigh, rolled up, rolled up... Commemorate them, without sentimentality. In that way they are still alive, as much as is your ram - OK armed police! cling on to what is fleeced; resist the desire to fall for it, give in to that passion and next you drown in bull, Zeus and Hera playing silly buggers in whatever guise. And so the years pass. Keep the light still! Its flicker is gaudy! They read you their rites and start to bury you. Memory dazzles. Incessant burning. Read, write, completed with error. Photographs and books divided. Put your clothes on. Who's this with you? Looks dead to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saneh Saadati" To: Sent: 04 August 2002 22:12 Subject: A Poem. To Be Continued. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:52:29 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Susan Schultz in Buffalo - Aug. 24th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Heading off the Wednesdays @ 4 + series for the season, a=20 Susan Schultz (epc.buffalo.edu/authors/schultz) Saturday, August 24th=20 Talk (on Ronald Johnson): 3:30 pm at Rust Belt Books (Allentown) Poetry reading: 7 pm at Rust Belt These events are free and open to the public (closed to the private). Susan is also editor / publisher of TINFISH Press, a magazine and book = series. She will surely bring many of her unique Tinfish offerings to = sell, so bring a few extra bucks and support one of the most innovative = (and I use that term here unabashedly) small presses I know of. Between = the talk and reading, we'll be slipping next door to Cybele's for dinner = - please join us! K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:54:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >Boog City presents > > > >the Baseball issue > >Sunday April 14, 6:37 p.m. > >the Zinc Bar > >90 W. Houston St. > >(off La Guardia Pl.) > >NYC > >$4 > > Is there any chance of contributors getting copies of this? asks > George Bowering & I want to ask the same question, Pierre Joris ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: spidertangle (or spy yonder tangent...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A swiki is a webpage which is editable by who ever wishes to write changes to it. I thought it might be interesting to see what comes of this style of web interwriting. Make a bookmark for the page & visit it often. New pages can be created & added to it. To alter an exisiting page just click on edit at the top of the page. For further modifications read the very brief help link. We could easily use this site to create a group hypertext longpoem. An interesting feature of a swiki is that literally anyone can come & erase a page, spam it etc, but all pages save a history so any page can always be reverted to a previous history. Another useful feature is that typically you are always adding to the latest version tho Im not sure what would happen if a number of people all save different versions to the same page at the same instant. People may also upload jpegs & gifs. Im unclear how much server space is available so keep em small. http://swiki.hfbk.uni-hamburg.de:8080/mIEKAL/1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Re: PRYDXL (version 5.1) In-Reply-To: <3D4B540F.8223E453@mwt.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit PRYDXL- Confusion of pry and spy, meaning to use leverage to raise up a heavy object so that you can glimpse what's underneath (Partridge's ORIGINS, o.o.o.) unconventionally combined with the suffix dix-hsyll, corrupt Old Danish, supposedly meaning to "let down heavily," so that the term has been diffidently used by scholars to imply " the making of a discovery without being able to have time to identify whatever was there to be discovered or if it was there at all." Great performance, yours! Irving Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ > From: mIEKAL aND > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:54:56 -0500 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: PRYDXL (version 5.1) > > In an attempt to set the world's record for the most definitions for one word, > > I AM SEEKING THE MOST POSSIBLE DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS FOR THE WORD : > > PRYDXL (version 5.1) > > definitions 1-70 are at: > http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/PRYDXL/deflist2.html > > these definitions were added to PRYDXL's illustrious compendium of meaning > today by the new collaborative writing elist SPIDERTANGLE > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spidertangle/ > > 71. A PRYDXL is a ceremony designed to straighten out a painfully bent > penis. Mainly practiced today as a measure of last resort. John M. Bennett > > 72. The shortest piece of a C-flute, especially one > bearing a specifically measured trace of tarnish of > the type that results from uniquely wayward > performances of late Baroque scores. Sheila Murphy > > 73. A new electronic warfare weapon developed by the National Security Agency. > It will allow Pentagon to disrupt enemy servers & communications by instantly > turning their content into language poetry. Igor Satanovsky > > 74. Acronym, the original meaning of which has been lost, used to > categorize artesian well waters from Superfund sites. Joel Lipman > > 75. (n., archaic) Salve commonly dispensed in bathhouses. Joel LIpman > > 76. A she-cat hellqueen, especially wicked or eerie looking one, sometimes > inspired by or having influence over government policies, as it were, a shadow > government or policy distinctions cannot be clearly made or precisely > determined. Lakey Teasdale > > ADDENDUM: The noise made by the above cat during affectionate/demonic > backlash. Kathy Ernst > > 77. Common name for Twenty-Second Century prematurely born synthetic > males. Suffix "La" used for females, e.g., Prydxl-La. Suffix "Le" used > for gender-nonspecific diminutive, e.g., Prydxl-Le. Joel Lipman > > 78. CORRECTION: Sub-species (threatened) of microscopic butterflies > found only in the Louisiana parishes adjacent to the oil refining center > of Algiers. [Note: There are conflicting opinions on both whether the > PRYDXL is a species or sub-species and as to the definitive status of > its "threatened" status. This information is offered as a > nonpredjudicial addendum to the original definition.] Joel Lipman > > 79. The very instant at which psychics begin to channel, the instant something > strikes them, the instant before it becomes a PREDICTION. Kathy Ernst > > 80. With respect to Kathy Ernst's helpful definition, this "instant" > (PRYDXL) was extensively documented in the tragically evaporated > Compendium of Powers, once housed in the Old Hogwart's Library. > Suspended traces of the document are said to hover over the school's > campus. Joel Lipman > > 81. PRYDXL, as it became known in the media, was a particularly embarassing > public relations fiasco for gangster rapper DMX, whose hit "D-X-L (Hard > White)," > as it turned out, included lyrics originally written by Barry Manilow. > > These lyrics can be found at : > http://www.geocities.com/lyricsdmx/x_lyrics/dxl.html > Igor Satanovsky > > 82. According to an ancient manuscript DE NATURA TORTUORUM written by Almeric > de > Padua circa XI cent. the PRYDXL was an instrument of torture used by the > monks in order to extract the confession (by extracting their teeth out) of > guilt of witches and warlocks. Carlos Luis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:26:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE SOUL, THE BODY, AND THE BUREAUCRACY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE SOUL, THE BODY, AND THE BUREAUCRACY [SCENE: The Emergency Room.] THE SOUL: Excuse me ... have insurance, we can ... this registration form--oh, and BUREAUCRACY: You just fill in if ... WOMAN. Excuse me. This ... don't growl at me. Just fill them out and ... you know THE BODY: Ah, don't mention ... because I-- BUREAUCRACY: Proof of Insurance? THE BODY: ... don't know. THE SOUL: Ohhhhh ... BUREAUCRACY: The line! ... most importantly, don't get ... lover. Didn't want to ... Excuse me ... giving me this ... FILL OUT ... fill out a form and THE SOUL: SHOULD I FILL OUT THE CLAIM ... your claim form be specific ... IS WEARING ME DOWN, should I BUREAUCRACY: The only excuse is, it is ... how to know when to "Me E-Me." Here ... for better insurance value, fill out the form below and ... the savings don't average THE BODY [Under its breath]: ... man I know and if ... excuse after excuse to get ... head past me, that's her ... "for better insurance value, fill out the form below ..." THE SOUL [Snorts.]: Long Dick--excuse me, Dick ... I didn't fill them out ... was stressed out with a ... "Please don't let me be ... my insurance," and ... BUREAUCRACY: Another authorization form ... piled up out my ears ... are but excuse me. And ... pay a fee, fill out a form and bring ... all I know is that it isn't sissy to see the insurance certificate for ... to do. Excuse me: it is ... to mention fill a database ... screwed out of the ... excuse me THE BODY: Ohhhhh ... sensation of cramp as orifice in stomach ... BUREAUCRACY: FILL OUT THIS FORM, PLEASE ... your health, please ... we don't take ... go. Excuse me. Sumimasen ... THE BODY: Don't know at this ... "kudasai" THE SOUL: I don't know anything ... give me time ... BUREAUCRACY: You gave me the SS ... for health insurance, etc. Doubling ... have him fill out this form in 1937 THE SOUL [Getting annoyed]: We'll fill it with ... for the insurance and ... don't know whether ... another excuse for BUREAUCRACY: Touch with me now, there ... attending for insurance details. Those ... shape or form you think ... please fill it out if you ... good excuse THE SOUL [Fed up.]: BUREAUCRACY, you know what I ... it doesn't mean that ... I don't like ... BUREAUCRACY: Most people don't like ... people will fill out the ... now: "Excuse me" ... people know why ... supplementary insurance or ... turns out this ... form letter ... THE SOUL: Ohhhh, god ... headache as if weight were hanging on rectum ... THE BODY [Pissed off now at THE SOUL.] FILL IN THE STUPID BLANK ... have to fill out these boneheaded ... if you know what I THE SOUL [Hurt.]: Nobody asked me ... you don't care about ... BUREAUCRACY: "Excuse me?" That's insurance regulations ... You know you're not your insurance policy. You don't even know the ... wasn't. THE SOUL [Breaking down.]: I DON'T WANT ... important to know ... have ... fill out a ... BUREAUCRACY: Heck ... columns. Don't trust me? Starving ... doesn't, however ... to fill in ... You know, like ... returns, insurance documents ... date form the heck out of ... THE SOUL [Hysterical.]: THE WORST INSURANCE COMPANY ON THE SAD EXCUSE THAT ... THEY DON'T WANT TO ... I KNOW THEY ... forcing me to ... FILL OUT INTERROGATORIES THE BODY: Ohhhh, god ... oh my god ... BUREAUCRACY: Actually ... with your insurance provider ... I don't ... and wouldn't know ... fill out the form completely ... THE BODY: Will our insurance cover ... that animal out of here? NURSE, excuse me. This ... lights up? BUREAUCRACY: Don't ... didn't actually use ... YOUR insurance company ... just fill in ... them know you ... THE SOUL: PLEASE ... I'M SORRY ... EXCUSE ME ... [Curtain.] _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:13:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: poem (not urban) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII THE CIGARETTE I'M IN i had stayed preternatural to get out the april and in midafternoon then check four trees of the weather wishing the year the run of his e-mail new life like a storm, coughing, alone, sky, captivity, and rises i in the library twilight can't stop wanting the cigarette i'm in to be the dark may water of his fountain, lightning in this lab, but no release the computer from the water first of the near june thunder slams to the mist arcade, leave of his summer in a thick journey drink twice into the under concrete the july a cigarette coughing fit to waistlevel, of his have a smoke back <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 03:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Poem 2 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sunday 96 and humid. 9 a.m. call from a helpful creditor. But then some = great humor from Gary Sullivan's "Dialogue between the Soul, the Body, = and the Bureaucracy": BUREAUCRACY: You just fill in if ... WOMAN. Excuse me. This ... don't = growl at me. Just fill them out and ... you know THE BODY: Ah, don't mention ... because I-- BUREAUCRACY: Proof of Insurance? THE BODY: ... don't know. THE SOUL: Ohhhhh ... 8 p.m. Groucho lives. = http://www.worldlaughtertour.com/sections/news/current.asp#BerKHopeSummar= y RESEARCH SUMMARY: Anticipation of Laughter Actual Title: The Anticipation of a Laughter Eustress Event Modulates = Mood States Prior to the Actual Humor Experience L.S. Berk, D.L. Felten, J. Westengard* Susan Samueli Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, UC = Irvine College of Medicine, and *Loma Linda University School of = Medicine, Loma Linda, CA.=20 Lay Summary Title: The Positive Anticipation/Expectation of a = Humorous/Laughter Eustress (Positive Emotional) Experience Begins to = Change Mood States Before the Actual Humor Event-A Concept of Hope=20 The present study demonstrates that anticipation/expectation of a one = hour experience of mirthful laughter, in the form of viewing a humorous = video, evokes significant positive changes in mood states prior to the = actual viewing of the video, providing new insights into the = psychobiology of anticipation/expectation. Previous work from our = laboratories has demonstrated that viewing of a self-selected humorous = video for one hour can ameliorate (amend) many of the physiological = effects of distress. Many forms of chronic stress result in suppressed = immune responses, particularly those related to anti-viral and = anti-tumor defenses. These diminished immune responses appear to be the = result of increased secretion of stress hormones such as cortisol and = epinephrine. Mirthful laughter diminishes the secretion of cortisol and = epinephrine, while enhancing the anti-viral and anti-tumor immune = reactivity. In addition, mirthful laughter enhances the secretion of = growth hormone, an enhancer of these same key immune responses. The = biological effects of a single one-hour session of viewing a humorous = video can last from 12 to 24 hours, while other studies of daily = 30-minute exposure to such humor/laughter videos produces profound and = long-lasting changes in these measures.=20 The present study builds on these previous observations, and on further = rather surprising findings that if subjects are informed 3-days prior to = the humor intervention that they will be "a subject in" the experimental = laughter group (watching the humor video) rather than the control group = (sitting in comfortable chairs reading magazines of their choice), these = experimental subjects demonstrate a striking decrease in stress related = negative mood states and an increase in a positive mood state. As a = result of the present study, we further hypothesized that the same = anticipatory behavior or positive expectation that led to altered mood = states, also would lead to stress hormone (neuroendocrine mediator) = changes prior to viewing of the humor video.=20 In this study we administered the Profile of Mood States (POMS), an = instrument that measures changes in tension, depression, anger, vigor, = fatigue, and confusion to 10 fasting male subjects (mean age 27 years) = at time points 2 days before, 15 minutes before, and immediately = following, the humor intervention of viewing of a self-selected 60 = minute video. The POMS scores in each of the six areas were charted = longitudinally and compared with published standardized test norms for = the POMS. The table below shows the relative percentage decreases or = increases in mood states.=20 Mood States=20 Relative % Change from Test Norms 2-Days Before the Humor Before the Humor After the Humor=20 Tension 9%(35%(** 61%(*** Depression 51%(* 91%(*** 98%(*** Anger 19%( 90%(*** 98%(*** Vigor 12%( 9%( 37%(** Fatigue 15%( 63%(** 87%(*** Confusion 36%(** 63%(*** 75%(*** *p<.05 **p<.01 ***p<.001 ( indicates a decrease ( indicates an increase=20 Test subjects demonstrated a progressive pattern of significant = decreases in depression, tension, fatigue, confusion, and anger = (significant at a level of p<.001) and a significant increase in vigor = (significant at a level of p<.01). Changes in mood states began prior to = the viewing of the humor video, and continued through and after the = one-hour laughter intervention. This positive pattern of altered mood = states represents a "eustress" profile that is counter/opposite to that = provoked by classical stress (distress).=20 In conclusion, these findings demonstrate that anticipation/expectation, = as much as the humor intervention episode, can initiate changes in mood = state prior to the actual experience itself. We suggest this may = parallel neuroendocrine stress hormone changes that also occur with this = type of humor/laughter intervention. Our findings provide both = psychosocial (mood state changes) and suggestive neuroendocrine = (cortisol, epinephrine, growth hormone) correlate changes as a result of = anticipation. Further studies should be done to definitively show that = anticipation of favorable positive interventions, such as mirthful = laughter and possibly others eustress behaviors, may initiate changes in = the secretion of important biological mediators that, indeed, may = positively contribute to wellness and counteract many adverse changes = related to chronic stress.=20 We believe that the "biology of hope" that underlies recovery from many = chronic disorders includes, in part, the synonyms optimism, = anticipation, expectation of positive interventions and experiences. If = complementary and integrative interventions/adjunctive therapies, = directed towards wellness and recovery from chronic diseases, can = incorporate positive expectation or anticipatory experiences ( "hope," = the resultant changes may not only 1) contribute to beneficial positive = mood state changes; but also, 2) modify important biological/chemical = mediators that optimize immune responses; 3) diminish stress-related = molecules and inflammatory mediators; and in total 4) potentially = contribute to the prevention and healing processes.=20 Mirthful?=20 Groucho hardly was. More like an earthy rumble Knowing winking eye cigar Bellybursting Howl tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at = http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm=20 Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:55:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Barrett Watten query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:28:01 -0400 >From: Loss Pequeño Glazier >Subject: Barrett Watten query >If anyone knows of a way to reach Barrett Watten (he does not seem to be replying to e-mail at the moment) please b/c. Thanks ------------------------------------------------------- Barrett is right here with me. Is there anything you would like me to relay to him? He's lying down at the moment. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:04:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:20:34 -0700 >From: Dodie Bellamy >Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" >Oddly, a couple days ago I ran across some old letters I wrote when I visited Niedecker's grave, and I'd forgotten this, but on her tombstone it's spelled Neidecker. ------------------------------------------------------- That's what happens when poets die, Dodei (when theory-death sets in), little Dodei: the vowels in your name transpose themselves. Jeffrye ): __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 01:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics In-Reply-To: <3D4B5193.A98AD28@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Headline News "malodorous vaseline seduces rare crustacean" writes our correspondent from the Gulf "mad tryst ends in sad scene as UN diplomat eats both upon Polynesian Pad Thai our experts debate metaphysical consequences as appplied to ethics. Kant is cited as is Rawls Brawls ensue among the learned" Rumsfeld's speech on channel 3 is breezy, let's us really see: "we're here to kill but just to kill the ones we want to kill kill kill. And if we kill some other ones, too bad says Rumsfeld: What were those dead people doing underneath our bombs anyway?" take saucepan and heat two tablespoons olive oil add finely chopped Italian parsley when wilted, add chopped onions now put in the morals stir until browned on all sides drain and remove from heat insert morals into subjects using the following procedure: skewer moral on icepick or ke-bab skewer lift eyelid and push upwards into brain through eye socket if desired, anaesthetics may be administered prior to treatment this is however an unnecessary complication whining general opines freely on the decline of the armed forces (accompanied by the Singing Senators and a fifty-two piece kazoo orchestra whose members are all dressed as Uncle Sam) "young men want to have fun now," he complains, "I had my fun in Vee-et-nam shooting Gooks I put a notch in my penis for each one I dispatched my wife says she understands why perverts buy ribbed condoms our pastor says it is a sin to alter what God has provided and so every night we pray for the souls of the Gooks who have enriched our marital duty I regret only that I didn't instruct them in the faith of Our Lord before shooting them but my orders were clear and I am a stickler for obeying my commanders, temporal and spiritual" secret research in special hospital develops plans to send aborted fetuses to war "we love fetuses," say the Republicans, "and sending them to do the highest duty an American can do "is a way of asserting their humanity" in another lab a bipartisan group works on a remote control device for Presidents "imagine the benefits," one former press secretary says, "we could literally put words in the President's mouth and completely prevent any dangerous off-the-cuff remarks," A high official in the current administration who spoke on condition that his name not be revealed gushed thus: "A committee of experts could gather in the situation room and provide the president with a knowledgeable and politically safe answer to any question imagine that!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 01:45:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: praise for Neidecker - but it's "Niedecker" Comments: To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sat, 03 Aug 2002 13:48:13 +0100, Barbara Thimm wrote: > (despite the pronunciation): > No, says Nielsen, because of the pronunciation -- By the way, they've got the WPA misidentified in the intro -- but it's a grand volume, beautifully edited, for which I will remain grateful for years -- > Niedecker, Lorine > Collected Poems > University of California Press > April 2002 > (unfortunately) $ 45 > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 02:18:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 494 character essay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 494 character essay I'm chucking values this evening. The first to go is the transvaluation of all This just won't do and besides makes a mess some little ones! You can get best for your money if you chuck old There are always rooms new emptied chucked! A value valueless even it No, wait! worth lot gather in group as they were capable speech. My my clothes! I them dress transvaluations. Everyone knows me here understands daily. What others call contrary behavior value-chucking. consider contradictory find falls apart. because one thing follows another. never simultaneous things world If there could simultaneously. try about time. hated circles result, but that's those each every direction. That's part which does It will have writing matter? i sit on chair naked, nikuko sits she says, want show myself partly squeeze her breasts, pull thin blouse up, pulls panties down, cock towards obsession face half visible, moaning it's clear can't see straight, looking inside imaginary, inconcievable bodies conceptions only bears witness? lies couch, body twitching, exhausting from pirouettes, feet bleeding, cries doctor, lie turning side covered with bedsores, occupies takes over, tongue's own, no control bite nikuko's leaving marks, bites mine, neck, abdomen, we're bruises, signs, windows, people read our symbols primitive, an early form clothe us, we culture short skirt, faster, flies she's underneath, labia measure divide days nights i'm dance clumsily turns uselessly, lips calling chest burns, watching, pained, mouth opened, hear leopold konninger shuddering his dissolving before who heaving, sprawled decaying sitting nipples grabbed by beautiful russian ballet dancer, twisted, clothed pulled pensive moment shredding closeups penises grace screens, veering back forth, oh whose be, splintering right front their faces shadow, akimbo, arms askew, mouths ajar couch splattered, shattered, legs spattered, scattered, necks sputtered, minds skittered topple forward neatly arranged footprints audience boredom ennui, detumescence, irritation continuous display they're dancing high, hoe, there's nothing more present condition, better killed off somewhere midst narrative that refuses stop yes appear screen, or two trick they've gone text, ghosts, oni, obake, scrabbling lost might pirouette, not he look, not, married run konigsberg, left texts, say, write they'd rather way, said goodbye, what legends addict beginning middle end smaller stories, crying these elderer tell child remember has been told thus move into darkerer spaces, where shall gather against elders tales transforms ah getting magnificent dark wood's table, obscenities' book lay sullen evil's vellum's was approached Broadham's Jennifer, wearing silk's gown setting incredible beauty's hair. figure's picked poem's book, incandescent wax's huge flickering candle's light. poems' ghost's please problems after done typing, click return twice. look further than truth. known sent top mountain, yearning valley, ceases wander. cessation desire comprehension such dreary stone carving. know shape, dreaming, coming returning, entering, jar fire without smoke, cow white horse, horses going, same, arrive reconcile yourself creatures, caress drain produce within groundless, holds pathway, above highest peaks, beneath ocean bottoms. runs flood, higher any lightning, louder thunder, through space, black turned good effect, turn lose oneself gain tr " " '\012' < zz > yy; nl yy > zz; awk -f a/back zz > yy; sort yy > zz; pico zz; awk -f a/back < zz > yy; sort -n yy > zz; awk '{ print $2 }' zz > yy _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:12:39 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Jail term for posting poetry on the Web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Father's Poem, Son's Conviction By Sergey Kuznetsov 2:00 a.m. Aug. 5, 2002 PDT from Wired Shohdy Naguib Surur will soon find out whether he has to pay for the alleged sins of his father. Shohdy, 40, was sentenced in June to one year in a Cairo jail for posting his father's poem on the Internet but has so far avoided incarceration as he awaits an appeal on Aug. 26. Shohdy is the first person charged for online publishing of a poem. If he loses the appeal, he will be Egypt's first Web prisoner of conscience. He was born in Moscow to a Russian mother and a famous Egyptian poet, Naguib Surur. Shohdy, 40, is one of Russia's online pioneers and one of the founders of the first Russian online magazine, Zhurnal.ru. A few years ago he moved to Egypt and began to work as a webmaster for the influential Egyptian English-language newspaper Al-Ahram. In Egypt, he wrote articles for Al-Ahram and Russian periodicals. Shohdy had been an Internet activist in Russia and he continued his political activity in Egypt, so it wasn't a surprise when he became the first to translate "A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace," by John Perry Barlow, into Arabic. After posting his father's poem -- a bitter reflection on the state of Egyptian society and culture after Egypt was defeated in the 1967 war against Israel -- Shohdy was arrested in November 2001. In the poem, Naguib Surur condemned Egyptian government and politics, using explicit sexual imagery and colloquial street Arabic. Even the poem's name, in fact, is graphic. The poem was never published in Egypt but has been disseminated there through underground tapes of Naguib Surur's readings. Three years ago, the poem was posted on the U.S.-hosted website managed by Shohdy ("wadada" means love in Sanskrit). Soon after his arrest, the poem was removed from the site. Since no law regulates Internet publishing in Egypt, Shohdy is charged with possessing "immoral booklets and prints." Egyptian officials are trying to present the case as a pornography violation, but there is no doubt that the case is politically motivated. "The site was blacklisted on Islamic sites and proxied off by the 'traditionalists' of the Arabian Peninsula," Shohdy said. "I hate to think of facing the dogma institutions and their ardent supporters in the courtroom. They lack a sense of humor in their exercise of righteous judgment, while the poem is fire and brimstone of a sort, but with humor." Even though Shohdy was one of the site's administrators, the prosecutors have not presented evidence that Shohdy was the actual publisher of the poem. After Shohdy's arrest, a few international human rights support groups, such as Index on Censorship, spoke in his defense. Since Shohdy is well-known in the Russian Internet community, many Russian newspapers published articles in his support. "It's not just (an) Egyptian case," the Russian Internet activist Nastik Gryzunova said. "This disgusting case of breaking the free expression rights illustrates the Internet censorship problem. Plus it brings up the issue of the international laws and the Internet, because the server where the poem is published is the hosted in the U.S. "These problems are topical not just for Russia or Egypt, and we hope the international Internet community will support Shohdy Naguib." "In the most Islamic countries," Shohdy says, "I wouldn't even have a chance to appeal. However, I don't believe (I will be let go)." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:00:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Gieselle Beiguelman in NYT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/05/arts/design/05ARTS.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:26:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Poem 2 In-Reply-To: <006e01c23c5b$94785600$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hey tom bell --i'm right now trying to "theorize" silliness. gary plays a big part in it. laughing is the best. At 3:39 AM -0500 8/5/02, Thomas Bell wrote: >Sunday 96 and humid. 9 a.m. call from a helpful creditor. But then some >great humor from Gary Sullivan's "Dialogue between the Soul, the Body, and >the Bureaucracy": > >BUREAUCRACY: You just fill in if ... WOMAN. Excuse me. This ... don't growl >at me. Just fill them out and ... you know > >THE BODY: Ah, don't mention ... because I-- > >BUREAUCRACY: Proof of Insurance? > >THE BODY: ... don't know. > >THE SOUL: Ohhhhh ... > > > >8 p.m. Groucho lives. >http://www.worldlaughtertour.com/sections/news/current.asp#BerKHopeSummary > > >RESEARCH SUMMARY: Anticipation of Laughter > >Actual Title: The Anticipation of a Laughter Eustress Event Modulates Mood >States Prior to the Actual Humor Experience >L.S. Berk, D.L. Felten, J. Westengard* >Susan Samueli Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, UC Irvine >College of Medicine, and *Loma Linda University School of Medicine, Loma >Linda, CA. > >Lay Summary Title: The Positive Anticipation/Expectation of a >Humorous/Laughter Eustress (Positive Emotional) Experience Begins to >Change Mood States Before the Actual Humor Event-A Concept of Hope > >The present study demonstrates that anticipation/expectation of a one hour >experience of mirthful laughter, in the form of viewing a humorous video, >evokes significant positive changes in mood states prior to the actual >viewing of the video, providing new insights into the psychobiology of >anticipation/expectation. Previous work from our laboratories has >demonstrated that viewing of a self-selected humorous video for one hour >can ameliorate (amend) many of the physiological effects of distress. Many >forms of chronic stress result in suppressed immune responses, >particularly those related to anti-viral and anti-tumor defenses. These >diminished immune responses appear to be the result of increased secretion >of stress hormones such as cortisol and epinephrine. Mirthful laughter >diminishes the secretion of cortisol and epinephrine, while enhancing the >anti-viral and anti-tumor immune reactivity. In addition, mirthful >laughter enhances the secretion of growth hormone, an enhancer of these >same key immune responses. The biological effects of a single one-hour >session of viewing a humorous video can last from 12 to 24 hours, while >other studies of daily 30-minute exposure to such humor/laughter videos >produces profound and long-lasting changes in these measures. > >The present study builds on these previous observations, and on further >rather surprising findings that if subjects are informed 3-days prior to >the humor intervention that they will be "a subject in" the experimental >laughter group (watching the humor video) rather than the control group >(sitting in comfortable chairs reading magazines of their choice), these >experimental subjects demonstrate a striking decrease in stress related >negative mood states and an increase in a positive mood state. As a result >of the present study, we further hypothesized that the same anticipatory >behavior or positive expectation that led to altered mood states, also >would lead to stress hormone (neuroendocrine mediator) changes prior to >viewing of the humor video. > >In this study we administered the Profile of Mood States (POMS), an >instrument that measures changes in tension, depression, anger, vigor, >fatigue, and confusion to 10 fasting male subjects (mean age 27 years) at >time points 2 days before, 15 minutes before, and immediately following, >the humor intervention of viewing of a self-selected 60 minute video. The >POMS scores in each of the six areas were charted longitudinally and >compared with published standardized test norms for the POMS. The table >below shows the relative percentage decreases or increases in mood states. > >Mood States > >Relative % Change from Test Norms >2-Days Before the Humor >Before the Humor >After the Humor >Tension >9%(35%(** >61%(*** >Depression >51%(* >91%(*** >98%(*** >Anger >19%( >90%(*** >98%(*** >Vigor >12%( >9%( >37%(** >Fatigue >15%( >63%(** >87%(*** >Confusion >36%(** >63%(*** >75%(*** >*p<.05 >**p<.01 >***p<.001 >( indicates a decrease >( indicates an increase > >Test subjects demonstrated a progressive pattern of significant decreases >in depression, tension, fatigue, confusion, and anger (significant at a >level of p<.001) and a significant increase in vigor (significant at a >level of p<.01). Changes in mood states began prior to the viewing of the >humor video, and continued through and after the one-hour laughter >intervention. This positive pattern of altered mood states represents a >"eustress" profile that is counter/opposite to that provoked by classical >stress (distress). > >In conclusion, these findings demonstrate that anticipation/expectation, >as much as the humor intervention episode, can initiate changes in mood >state prior to the actual experience itself. We suggest this may parallel >neuroendocrine stress hormone changes that also occur with this type of >humor/laughter intervention. Our findings provide both psychosocial (mood >state changes) and suggestive neuroendocrine (cortisol, epinephrine, >growth hormone) correlate changes as a result of anticipation. Further >studies should be done to definitively show that anticipation of favorable >positive interventions, such as mirthful laughter and possibly others >eustress behaviors, may initiate changes in the secretion of important >biological mediators that, indeed, may positively contribute to wellness >and counteract many adverse changes related to chronic stress. > >We believe that the "biology of hope" that underlies recovery from many >chronic disorders includes, in part, the synonyms optimism, anticipation, >expectation of positive interventions and experiences. If complementary >and integrative interventions/adjunctive therapies, directed towards >wellness and recovery from chronic diseases, can incorporate positive >expectation or anticipatory experiences ( "hope," the resultant changes >may not only 1) contribute to beneficial positive mood state changes; but >also, 2) modify important biological/chemical mediators that optimize >immune responses; 3) diminish stress-related molecules and inflammatory >mediators; and in total 4) potentially contribute to the prevention and >healing processes. > >Mirthful? > >Groucho hardly was. > >More like an earthy rumble > >Knowing winking eye cigar > >Bellybursting Howl > > > >tom bell > > > >&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: >Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html >Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at >http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm >Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ >Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Gieselle Beiguelman in NYT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT interestinghow your posting this link commercializes the artwork -I was treated to some blinking duncan donuts for my breakfast and a flying chicken advertising something? what a wonderful age we live in? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barrett Watten" To: Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:00 AM Subject: Gieselle Beiguelman in NYT > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/05/arts/design/05ARTS.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:17:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 822 Character Classic [net pornography] from first text, Internet Text) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [no word repeated exactly] 822 Character Classic [net pornography] from first text, Internet Text) NIPPLE.TXT That which carries me against the surface of philosophical discourse, offering my body to every thinker on circuit: I'm ignorant, I whore for you; I've been inside you've penetrated me; now you'll pay attention; read this; I'M YOUR MOUTH. Typing SUCK screen, its interior, press nipples glass warmed by electroncs streaming an even keel from urethra buried deep within vacuum space. is how begin a consideration LITERATURE, perfect breasts flattened and displayed in midst machinery's surface; you tits, cunt, cock; rest no longer see characters through oiled presence; eyes, half closed, move other things. am naked here with me, witness all secrets; can come waiting address name; will recognize skin splayed open you. It that inscribes write for. To continue fast- forward; do this My death present screen screen's system; be assured part living. The oil anus remains frozen glass; flesh has fallen away, backward, into another space, elsewhere; space absolute negation; indescribable NEITHER A NOR B, protruding or extending beyond limit, boundary, side Alice's looking-glass. can't look cunt because eyes only characters; arms wrap around myself, pressing inward; what begins as caress ends pain; see. WEAR THICK GLASSES AM FIFTY-ONE, PLAIN- LOOKING, ANGULAR, TOO INTENSE FOR THE FACE-TO-FACE AROUND ME, NEUROTIC-OBSESSIVE, POOR, NEVER CONTENT, ALWAYS PUSHING. creates nothing, litany moving past knowledge, local becomes scroll, absence; writing about absence, not hole, hiatus simultaneously elsewhere-on-the-other-side in-the-midst, topology-povera restless, mobile, surrounded. If piss mouth, short-circuit machinery; takes your piss. Tying different REWRITE continuous loop; loop once, holding hands behind twice, inscribing anus, penetrating it, light pen; it WRITES nothing; fleshes closes off, forecloses; devolves. bound stretched, fucked several men women, users; shatters them, wet cum urine. split (nipples connecting nipples), devoured, net; (willingly) offered up, without thought world, shaved you, secrets exposed; return irresponsible questions; mouth hole; opens wide wider; WEB: beg remorse; whipped across ass, balls; speechless, whatever asked me: fissured, commands boil up ASSEMBLY; milk flows nipples: have whitened returned condition blank irre- trievable death; charcters merge background; energy dissolves; depth hole merges rim glistens circular MERGED; copies itself +RIM+RIM RIM; viral, extends throughout net, carrying murmur flesh. Nothing carried; memory; grain lost; never existed; presence grain; memory present, cum; YOUNG SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD GIRL WITH LIGHT SHAVED CUNT LONG BLOND HAIR WILL DO ANYTHING YOU ASK ME TO HAVE BEAUTIFUL ASS FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY STILL HAIRLESS MY COCK HOT EIGHT INCHES FACE DOING SHORT CROPPED BLACK HAIR; whispers desire alt.sex.fetish; face nothing whatsoever. SCREEN IS AN INSCRIPTION; intersection absence null set relative attributive semantics Venn diagram. distinction between classic domain; inscription demarcation quality, such organic hermeneutics. Otherwise fissure quantity quantity, meandering lowering system heap adjusts; inscriptions always maintained; net fissures; user himself herself screen; pure form desire. desire; desirable hide inscription; tailor enormous bridge. Masochistically, want thus fulfill fulfilling more than RETURN; maternal it; primary narcissism; nipple. You are BELLY. beautiful boy girl, adolescent shall teach everything need know. older woman man, years experience; bring new heights pleasure, whole countries dreamed of; RETURN, true Even now, lovely hard screen. Best all, there political economy involved; excess characterizes our exchanges, flow one another; floods opening closing, thirty-million sucking mouths, interruptions, pro-cedures; at loss fades whisper; stage-whisper best multi-user-domain; name drops out; circulation continues. There econ- omy, rather characterized fullness surplus; restraint channelling projection introjection, problematic themselves - being itself. For if aporia exists being/Being/beings, diffuses ontological fading elsewhere stake; presentification (Heideggerian) THEY, categoricity OCCURRING incandescent fast-forward rate inconceivable inconceiving episteme. NO MATTER HOW FAR LEGS ARE SPLIT, EPISTEME REMAINS OBDURATE. Penetration transforms gopher; cunnilingus world-wide-web; fellatio ftp: take pick; mouths equivalent, same. CONTINUE SHOUT: I'LL TAKE PISS IN FACE; SWALLOW SHIT; UNTIL COME SCREAMING; CAN FUCK ANYTIME AT ALL; CUT NAME CHEST; NIPPLES OFF, THEM YOU; GIVE gift 'snail-mail' necessarily travels world. occurs alterity. opened door gateway; Portia stood portal, port 7777, anything escape. What port; contained meaningless directions, pounding keys like ocean technology; tried, protocol hummed router was in. her legs spread wide, secrets, bulletin, ASCII down suturing elsewhere, some alt group another. Not knowing served list; gopher travelled global. Global, had organs; global, ready anyone, two us, infinite multiplicities, identities changing regime genders, above beyond, TELE TELELOGO, TELELOGO. Logo transformed fast; wasn't who held onto identity antiquated some- thing backward location, Cartesian coordinates. Coordinates perhaps feed that, but Sheffer stroke. She beginning, already organization; beginning plagiarism (borrowed source, computer language, Karl Kraus), didn't run things running herself, downhill liquid, ignored boolean Veronica, SLAVE AND MASTER, BONDAGE OR DOMINATION. 7777 spelled sometimes spelling slipped wayside. I'd wait hold breath, line making breaking sense others. actions were equivalences; cartoons, they defied death, upon impact (presence speech screen); taken, raped, slaughtered, caressed, cuddled, fucked, mutilated, returned, sliding out view top. would forever; given 75% rating matching attributes assigned myself. felt conform truth taut other; melted before eyes; mocked wayward Madonna strugging keep apart. quiet nice kind guy until joined fourth generation hackers, Portia; imagine life like. _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:01:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just back from a weekend in beantown and environs. The pleasure of seeing my daughter in Boston was compounded by a fieldtrip to The Grolier Poetry Book Shop in Cambridge on Plympton Street. Louise Solano owns and operates this postage stamp sized store which is celebrating its 75th anniversary. Solano is the third owner in the history of the store. She's had it for the past 27 years-- which, as she pointed out to me, is virtually as long as I've been writing and publishing. And she should know. She's sold and continues to sell my publications since the early 80s. The store is a terrific resource in Cambridge but also a boon to poets and publishers throughout the United States. Looking for a hard to find poetry book? It's another place to try. email: grolierpoetrybookshop@compuserve.com www.grolierpoetrybookshop.com Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:24:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Boston In-Reply-To: <1b8.4513ce5.2a80095f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hear hear. At 1:01 PM -0400 8/5/02, Tom Beckett wrote: >Just back from a weekend in beantown and environs. The pleasure of seeing my >daughter in Boston was compounded by a fieldtrip to The Grolier Poetry Book >Shop in Cambridge on Plympton Street. Louise Solano owns and operates this >postage stamp sized store which is celebrating its 75th anniversary. Solano >is the third owner in the history of the store. She's had it for the past 27 >years-- which, as she pointed out to me, is virtually as long as I've been >writing and publishing. And she should know. She's sold and continues to >sell my publications since the early 80s. The store is a terrific resource >in Cambridge but also a boon to poets and publishers throughout the United >States. Looking for a hard to find poetry book? It's another place to try. >email: grolierpoetrybookshop@compuserve.com > www.grolierpoetrybookshop.com > >Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:07:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: 723-8376 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This announces: 723-8376 = mag of a Boston scene online and otherwise Deadline for submissions for issue #1 is 9/30/02. Poems, essays, reviews and interviews. Please, Boston poets only. Send to: 723-8376 Jim Behrle 3 Washburn Terr #3 Brookline, MA 02446 PLEASE DO NOT CALL _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Grolier Comments: cc: "Carfagna, Richard" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grolier may be a great place to buy poetry, but getting the store to = carry your work into isn't nearly as easy. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:32:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: poem: something borrowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My Big George Bush, 2000-2008 boy can kill with a smile, boy can wound with boy eyes=20 boy can ruin boy faith with boy casual lies=20 and boy only reveals what boy wants boy to see=20 boy hides like a child, but boy's always a boy to boy=20 =A0=20 boy can lead boy to love boy can take boy or leave boy=20 boy can ask for the truth but boy'll never believe boy=20 and boy'll take what boy gives boy as long as boy's free=20 yeah, boy steals like a thief, but boy's always a boy to boy=20 =A0=20 oh, boy takes care of boyself boy can wait if boy wants=20 boy's ahead of boy time oh, and boy never gives out and boy never gives in boy just changes boy mind=20 =A0=20 boy'll promise boy more than the garden of boy=20 then boy'll carelessly cut boy and laugh while boy're bleedin'=20 but boy'll bring out the best and the worst boy can be=20 blame it all on boyself, cause boy's always a boy to boy.=20 =A0=20 oh, boy takes care of boyself boy can wait if boy wants boy's ahead of boy time oh-and boy never gives out and boy never gives in boy just changes boy mind=20 =A0=20 boy is frequently kind and boy's suddenly cruel=20 boy can do as boy pleases, boy's nobody's fool=20 but boy can't be convicted, boy's earned boy degree=20 and the most boy will do is throw shadows at boy,=20 but boy's always a boy to boy.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:00:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Nikolayev Subject: Re: Grolier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Grolier may be a great place to buy poetry, but getting the store to = carry your work into isn't nearly as easy. I haven't had any trouble with that! Lousia has always seemed extremely = helpful. Philip ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:56:17 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: Grolier In-Reply-To: <001501c23cae$4d89ae80$1160f30c@S0027338986> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, being a customer is a little annoying too. You get followed around if you insiste on browsing rather than asking the prproetor for specific books... I always get creeped out when I go there, and end up buying my poetry books right next door at teh Harvard Book Store or else at the Coop. But that was when I had a Boston connection... In NYC, the best poetry stores seems to be St. Mark's Bookstore, Labyrinth, and Gotham Book Mart (Gotham would rate higher, only their books are a mess and rarely in great condition even if "new." Some of the Barnes and Nobles's (heresy!) have decent poetry sections, too, like Bway & 82nd Street, but sometimes the sections are big due to trashy poetry... Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Vernon Frazer Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 2:31 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Grolier Grolier may be a great place to buy poetry, but getting the store to carry your work into isn't nearly as easy. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:02:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: poems Entropy Slices In-Reply-To: <10F2B8E6B6C9AC4993FC1FB47C0D88CC58F653@karat.kandasoft.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Here is the forst slice of 143 of a completed project. It a >complilation of many instructions. I finished it this year. {S} 0001 Monday Raiatea Oh, Jake, Raiatea Insight Tour departure: 7:30 am & 10:00 am they say miracles are past more details $49.00 per person maximum: 8 persons duration: 2 1/2 hours using advanced features decorate me indoors I'll be there for you we could have had such a damned good time yes, a South Pacific anthropologist's dream you will always have a special place in my heart isn't it pretty to think so? any cancellations must be made 24 hours in advance ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:29:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: opening stanzas of a poem I'm working on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This poem Proffers Its ass. This poem Penetrates me. This poem Is blue. This poem Is colored Outside Its lines. This poem Is parenthetical. This poem Is embedded Within ____. This poem Operates among Focal points. This poem Eschews The copula. This poem Is fucked. This poem Sucks. This poem Thinks it's A flower. This poem Resembles A statement. This poem Is a bad Actor. This poem Requires a Degree Of leniency. This poem Has read The dictionary. This poem Gets up And moves. This poem Wants to Get to Know you. This poem Is expedient. This poem Sleeps with Its dreams. This poem Sleeps with The fishes. This poem Schemes. This poem Is a form Of waste Management. This poem Teeters. This poem Oh This poem. This poem Begins again. This poem Considers Its losses. This poem Stares into A mirror. This poem Plays With itself. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Basinski Subject: call for papers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetry Area, Popular Culture Association Conference 2003 Location: Louisiana, United States Call for Papers Deadline: 2002-09-10 For those interested in the Poetry Area of the Popular Culture Association Conference's annual meeting to be held April 16-19, 2003, at the New Orleans Marriott: The 2003 Poetry Area Chairs are seeking two kinds of panelists. The first pertains to reading one's own original work. If you are interested in doing so, please send eight sample poems with a brief letter to the address below. The other area concerns paper abstracts on populist American poets or other poets who have influenced American popular culture and/ or poetry, past or present. Letters and one-page abstracts for this kind of panel should be sent to Michael Basinski, The Poetry/Rare Books Collection, 420 Capen Hall, SUNYat Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260 or to Basinski@acsu.buffalo.edu We are happy to answer any questions or concerns you may have as well. Thank you. Sincerely, Maura Gage and Michael Basinski, Poetry Area Chairs, PCA 2003 Contact information: Dr. Maura Gage Division of Liberal Arts Louisiana State University at Eunice P.O. Box 1129 Eunice, LA 70535 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:48:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: abashed correction to my earlier, erroenous correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yesterday I said that the intro to the beautifully edited new Niedecker had misidentified the WPA -- I now see that both of us were right -- attribute this to my old age -- what was intially the Works Progress Administration later became the Work Projects Administration -- not the only confusion in Depression era, governmental alphabet soup -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:07:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Mediation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tom: My posting does nothing either way to the artwork--though there is a printer-friendly version that eliminates the ads, but also the photo of the piece. But as we can see from the image http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2002/08/05/arts/05arts.jpg the work precisely is about interweaving noncommercial messages in a commercial context. So, it would be closer to the artist's intention, here, to have the work corrupted by its presentation in a commercial-saturated media environment, would it not? Call it mediation. BW ***** interestinghow your posting this link commercializes the artwork -I was treated to some blinking duncan donuts for my breakfast and a flying chicken advertising something? what a wonderful age we live in? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barrett Watten" To: Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:00 AM Subject: Gieselle Beiguelman in NYT > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/05/arts/design/05ARTS.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:22:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Send A Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recall Ian Randall Wilson of Santa Monica, California is voluntarily recalling approximately 255 poems written between June 1998 and July 2002. The metaphors in the poems can break loose and detach posing a choking and aspiration hazard to young women. Additionally, the poems may have sharp adjectives which protrude on the paper side that can cause serous hand or body lacerations. The Consumer Product Literary Safety Commission and Wilson have received 3 reports of injuries from the metaphors and 15 reports of injury from the adjectives. In one case, Wilson received a report of a 24 year-old woman who inhaled a metaphor that detached from one of the longer poems into her sinus cavity. She required medical treatment to remove part of her nose. Adjective injuries include scrapes, deep lacerations and bruises of the heart. Several readers required stitches and extended psychotherapy. For more information, readers of these poems are encouraged to call the number below. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:22:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Re: call for papers In-Reply-To: <2064758035.1028561941@basinski.lib.buffalo.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hmmm...First of all, it was great to meet you finally, and your presentation still rings in my mind. Secondly, are transportation expenses paid for? I wrote things for the PCAC when it first started, and I've got something I think would go over as a visual-poetic work preceded by a several-page intro on the concept. Do let me know about transportation. Best wishes, Irving Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ > From: Michael Basinski > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:39:01 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: call for papers > > Poetry Area, Popular Culture Association Conference 2003 > Location: Louisiana, United States > Call for Papers Deadline: 2002-09-10 > > > For those interested in the Poetry Area of the Popular Culture Association > Conference's annual meeting to be held April 16-19, 2003, at the New > Orleans Marriott: > > The 2003 Poetry Area Chairs are seeking two kinds of panelists. The first > pertains to reading one's own original work. If you are interested in > doing so, please send eight sample poems with a brief letter to the address > below. > > The other area concerns paper abstracts on populist American poets or other > poets who have influenced American popular culture and/ or poetry, past or > present. Letters and one-page abstracts for this kind of panel should be > sent to Michael Basinski, The Poetry/Rare Books Collection, 420 Capen Hall, > SUNYat Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260 or to Basinski@acsu.buffalo.edu > > We are happy to answer any questions or concerns you may have as well. > Thank you. Sincerely, > Maura Gage and Michael Basinski, Poetry Area Chairs, PCA 2003 > > Contact information: > Dr. Maura Gage > Division of Liberal Arts > Louisiana State University at Eunice > P.O. Box 1129 > Eunice, LA 70535 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: a caw for peepers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am a crow, you god damn tiny frogs caw caw ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:12:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sorry, Barrett, I was having a snide morning. I also didn't intend to single your post out. I was thinking more of the commercialization of the internet here in the land of the big bucks. I was also responding I think to the real plight of someone like Clemente and what he's been going through which has passed unnoticed on this list and on webartery. I happen to think what he's doing is every bit as interesting as the stuff noted in the NYTimes piece. But then, if he wasn't fashionable twenty years ago, there's no reason he should be noticed by the cognosenti now? you can see some of the stuff he and others like mIEKAL, Reiner, and Ted were doing five yearsago on the wr-eye-tings scratchpad - http://www.burningpress.org/wreyeting/ maybe I'm just crotchety these days? heat here is 104. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" >I was thinking more of the commercialization of the > internet here in the land of the big bucks. keep in mind, tho... no commerce, no www... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: Re: Grolier In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:56 PM -0400 8/5/02, Millie Niss wrote: >Actually, being a customer is a little annoying too. You get followed >around if you insiste on browsing rather than asking the prproetor for >specific books... I always get creeped out when I go there, and end up >buying my poetry books right next door at teh Harvard Book Store or else at >the Coop. But that was when I had a Boston connection... when i was last there she told me that the reason that she had to follow people around was due to shop lifting. apparently students from brown had made it a contest to steal from her. she said that one of them admitted to this in an article in some magazine. i meant to follow up with her but i left cambridge without returning to the store. she may be a crank, but poetry is full of cranks. in fact, some of my best friends are cranks, and i would expect nothing less pretty soon there will be no more stores like hers. barnes & noble and borders have arrived in ithaca. the bookery is still going strong, but... -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:51:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Send A Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Wilson: I have had just such an experience & would like to file my claim but you do not list your number. Perhaps you have something to hide or you are not truly committed to the liberation of metaphors & their antebellum cousins, similes. Louise Pubescent Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > Recall > > Ian Randall Wilson of Santa Monica, California is voluntarily recalling > approximately 255 poems written between June 1998 and July 2002. The > metaphors in the poems can break loose and detach posing a choking and > aspiration hazard to young women. Additionally, the poems may have sharp > adjectives which protrude on the paper side that can cause serous hand or > body lacerations. The Consumer Product Literary Safety Commission and Wilson > have received 3 reports of injuries from the metaphors and 15 reports of > injury from the adjectives. In one case, Wilson received a report of a 24 > year-old woman who inhaled a metaphor that detached from one of the longer > poems into her sinus cavity. She required medical treatment to remove part > of her nose. Adjective injuries include scrapes, deep lacerations and > bruises of the heart. Several readers required stitches and extended > psychotherapy. For more information, readers of these poems are encouraged > to call the number below. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:01:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That doesn't follow L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duration Press" To: Sent: 05 August 2002 23:20 Subject: Re: Mediation | keep in mind, tho... | | no commerce, no www... | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:19:27 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Another Poem Urban Poem Poem: Mutation 20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mutation 20 $$$? mUTTER DoWN ON YOru mEMoRIES. lOOKEE HeRE. ?$$$ $$$? FuH aNY ApHASIAS YOrU nEEd? ERrGAWR ?$$$ $$$? bUY YOrU GODoh. WRuH ROLL hIM. LET's ?$$$ $$$? LOOK "eAT ArMS AND HAmMERs." URHrR. ?$$$ $$$? nO BeNDING ARMS. KUH CRaCK ?$$$ $$$? @SaLES. BURy. ?$$$ Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:18:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Send A Poem In-Reply-To: <3D4F017A.E47B18E7@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Dear Mr Wilson: > > I have had just such an experience & would like to file my claim but you do not > list your number. Perhaps you have something to hide or you are not truly > committed to the liberation of metaphors & their antebellum cousins, similes. > > Louise Pubescent > Simile when you say that, pardner. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sure it does... everything from the computer you're using, to the phone lines (keep in mind that the major internet backbones are run by either MCI, Sprint, or AT&T...not to mention the various providers of bandwidth), & down to the server hardware (&, if you're on a windows platform, the cost of the server software...not everyone runs linux)... added to the fact that a www can't exist without a domain registrar... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Upton" To: Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:01 PM Subject: Re: Mediation > That doesn't follow > > L > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Duration Press" > To: > Sent: 05 August 2002 23:20 > Subject: Re: Mediation > > > | keep in mind, tho... > | > | no commerce, no www... > | > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:46:46 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duration Press" To: Sent: 06 August 2002 00:24 Subject: Re: Mediation | sure it does... I say again that it doesn't follow perhaps you are confusing the way that things are with the way things could be... if you are saying, commerce cld, if it chose, turn off the www, then ok being able to break something is not proof that one can make it if you are saying that the www cld not exist without commerce then I disagree; why not? www was not invented by commerce | added to the fact that a www can't exist without a domain registrar... that cld be organised non-commercially L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:57:32 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lawrence, I may be wrong but wasn't the internet initially developed by military-funded researchers in the 1970s? A community-based www would be a possibility I'd embrace though. Cheers, Cassie --- On Mon 08/05, Lawrence Upton wrote: From: Lawrence Upton [mailto: lawrence.upton@BRITISHLIBRARY.NET] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:46:46 +0100 Subject: Re: Mediation > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Duration Press" > To: > Sent: 06 August 2002 00:24 > Subject: Re: Mediation > > | sure it does... > > I say again that it doesn't follow > > perhaps you are confusing the way that things are with the way things > could > be... > > if you are saying, commerce cld, if it chose, turn off the www, then ok > > being able to break something is not proof that one can make it > > if you are saying that the www cld not exist without commerce then I > disagree; why not? > > www was not invented by commerce > > | added to the fact that a www can't exist without a domain registrar... > > that cld be organised non-commercially > > L > ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Bay Area art classes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poetics, Some friends and I are interested in doing a good practical and/or theoretical art class this fall in the SF Bay Area. If anyone has recommendations for either graduate courses or 'open university'-type classes they'd be much appreciated. Thank you Cassie ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:31:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard D Carfagna Subject: Re: Grolier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personally, I'm with Millie on this one. I find the atmosphere of said bookstore: oppressive, claustrophobic and unfriendly. It has been rumored, by someone on the list, last year methinks, that the proprietor of said establishment is blatantly suspicious and untrusting of anyone who appears to show interest in anything 'alternative' in nature. I find this to be the case unequivocally, and choose not to frequent the store. I find it useful only a last ditch alternative, to which I must, sometimes, begrudgingly submit. In my humble opinion, there should be a more 'loving' place for poetry to call home. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 01:22:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Internet was initially developed by military and academic bodies while the www was the brainchild of CERN and in particular Tim Berners-Lee. So we have science, the academy and the brass all accidentally coming together. But not commerce. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: the stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________ Here's the stats on message numbers (all those posting 10+) since my arrival 6 months ago. Alan is currently breaking away from a slumping richard.tyler: 227 Alan Sondheim 158 richard.tyler 92 Shelia Massoni 88 Thomas Bell 73 Geoffrey Gatza 72 Millie Niss 71 Aaron Belz 63 Poetics List Administration 61 Maria Damon 57 Duration Press 51 Austinwja@aol.com 50 gene 50 Vernon Frazer 49 Mister Kazim Ali 43 George Bowering 43 jason christie 43 Murat Nemet-Nejat 41 David Hess 41 Mark Weiss 40 Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino 40 K.Silem Mohammad 37 Gary Sullivan 37 J Gallaher 36 Miekal And 35 K.Angelo Hehir 35 Lawrence Upton 34 Aldon L Nielsen 34 Jeffrey Jullich 33 Derek R 31 Louis Cabri 30 Fargas Laura 30 Nick Piombino 30 Tom Beckett 29 Patrick Herron 28 schwartzgk 27 Andrew Rathmann 27 Joe Amato 26 Philip Nikolayev 26 Susan M. Schultz 25 Dodie Bellamy 25 Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson 25 Ron Silliman 24 dcmb 24 The Poetry Project 23 Charles Bernstein 23 David Baratier 23 J Kuszai 23 Tenney Nathanson 22 kari edwards 22 Wystan Curnow 21 Barrett Watten 21 Gwyn McVay 21 Pam Brown 20 Small Press 19 Arielle Greenberg 18 cris cheek 18 Joel Weishaus 18 Leonard Brink 18 Pierre Joris 18 Steven Shoemaker 17 cadaly 17 Ken Rumble 17 Mark DuCharme 16 Bob Grumman 16 Jim Behrle 16 Michael Broder 15 David A. Krischenbaum 15 david.bircumshaw 15 Herb Levy 15 Isat@aol.com 15 John Tranter 15 komninos zervos 15 Robin Hamilton 14 Joe Brennan 14 Robert Corbett 14 Tony Follari 13 anatasios.kozaitis@verizon.net 13 derek beaulieu / housepress 13 Douglas Messerli 13 Halvard Johnson 13 Patrick F. Durgin 12 Hilton Obenzinger 12 Michael Rothenberg 11 Ian Randall Wilson 11 Michael Heller 11 Nate and Jane Dorward 11 Tracy Ruggles 10 Christina Palma 10 David Larson 10 Heidi Peppermint 10 jesse glass 10 jessica smith 10 Kevin Gallagher 10 Maxine Chernoff 10 Michael Magee 10 orange@georgetown.edu 10 Stephen Ellis 10 William Slaughter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:07:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Grolier In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > when i was last there she told me that the reason > that she had to > follow people around was due to shop lifting. > apparently students > from brown had made it a contest to steal from her. she once gave me a big discount on a joan retallack book because she said "you seem to like it so much"; then she gave me a liz waldner book for free because i convinced a fellow shopper to buy a book she was looking at. that don't happen at barnes and noble (or likely, at the harvard bookstore...) ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:05:27 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Black Iris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Black Iris Her face a light in black iris. Her body the flight of limbs stretching and sweat rolling hips and lush. Lips swindled kisses in a pact of fire. Long touch and a brush, a shatter charge a wire from neck to a breast. Wax crescent to her corola flushed crimson and unfolding. Ignite. Slide higher she said, and the song of a thrush. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 03:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Poem 3 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT New day. Up: 104 at the bank. Code Orange Alert on the TV. post to web artery list webartery@yahoogroups.com > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/05/arts/design/05ARTS.html ? according to the artist, > ``Egoscopio'' provides the obvious satisfaction of intermittently reclaiming a corner of > the urban landscape from the clutches of commercialization. Ms. Beiguelman said, ``It > is an invasion of somebody else's property, a kind of hacking of the city structure.'' > she makes this statement from the ?center? of the artworld in a prominent internet > venue which is supported by 2lbs of Dunkin Donuts, among other things! Seems a little > like ENRON giving sponsorships for students wanting to study at Harvard to become > creative internet accountants, but then maybe I'm just in a Groucho mood this morning? Groucho Or Oscar the Grouch On the square. Life. "Somebody gave me half a dozen ears, cause I was hungry, but I couldn't pick 'em. And they wasn't good." Cold hard cash. Hot day. Then from Uruguay: >"So you feel that this is USA sponsored, or just USA bungled and botched?" > I think that everything was an action organized in order to finish MERCOSUR in favor > of ALCA. So, all the norteamerican press tells all in the own USA. On the other hand, > the North American "generous aid" demanded that our government approves a law that > limits the refund of the deposits to term I take notice dolars in the national banks (Not > In FOREIGNER BANKS). This will mean the death of our national banks. .in benefits > to private banks. Another demand is that we blindfolded our public companies. Now > Bush and USA are wanted to seize of our "water" (the same is occurring in all the Latin > American countries). > Up to where will the imperial appetite arrive of taking possession of everything? > Fraternally, > Clemente Padin Tom Bell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:21:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not sure where i ever said that the www was founded by commerce...or where i said that the www was the brainchild of commercial entities...what i do remember saying was that the www (as it exists now...nevermind where it started) would cease to exist without commerce... we could go around this numerous times (& along the way hope for alternatives), but in order for the www to operate, things must be sold, bought, & paid for...servers must be built, pipelines to the www must be leased, bandwidth must be purchased, etc... can't understand why this is so hard to accept... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:34:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: If you're interested in Kylie . . . In-Reply-To: <01d801c23d21$09926780$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" --Minogue, there's a good article about her in this week's PEOPLE (US version) the one with the cover about J.Lo & Ben Affleck's Red-Hot Romance. It's on page 85 and 86 if you're standing in grocery line and have to flip to it quick. The article's accurate as far as I can tell and will help dispel many myths that have arisen around this strange cult figure. Nice pictures too, a bizarre one of Kylie visiting with her difficult younger sister Dannii, backstage, in front of a multi-part vanity mirror that reveals the back of their heads--very Vermeer. Also, "People" has a panel of experts who predict the winner on AMERICAN IDOL is going to be -- Kelly Clarkson!!! Who'd a thunk it? -- Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:42:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duration Press" To: Sent: 06 August 2002 05:21 Subject: Re: Mediation | not sure where i ever said that the www was founded by commerce...or | where i | said that the www was the brainchild of commercial entities...what i do | remember saying was that the www (as it exists now... you said "no commerce, no www..." you didn't say "as it exists now" had you said that, I wld have agreed now that you have said it, I do agree I just wanted to be clear that we cld have a www without commerce (I'd better say "as it exists now") I wouldn't mind having a www other than it exists now with all the poison and crap arriving on my machine Cassie, I didn't mean to ignore you; it was a good question; but I fell foul of the anti-discussion rules. David's answered, but I find it hard to be interrupted by software so i'll repeat: ------------------------------------------- It was, Cassie the aim was to ensure that the lunatics who had brought about nuclear war could continue to discuss whatever such people discuss after the white light began to shine www came out of CERN L ----- Original Message ----- From: "casslewis@excite.com" To: Sent: 06 August 2002 00:57 Subject: Re: Mediation | Hi Lawrence, | | I may be wrong but wasn't the internet initially developed by military-funded researchers in the 1970s? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:22:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM Subject: Re: Mediation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The people who run the TLD's are the people who could - possibly - "break" the internet. The DNSroot managers - rather than ICANN (who are currently making a pig's ear out of it) - are the ones who effectively "control" the internet. ICANN is supposed to run it - and I quote "ICANN is the global, non-profit, private-sector coordinating body acting in the public interest. ICANN ensures that the DNS continues to function effectively by overseeing the distribution of unique numeric IP addresses and domain names. Among its other responsibilities, ICANN oversees the processes and systems that ensure that each domain name maps to the correct IP address." from http://www.internic.net/faqs/authoritative-dns.html but see http://www.proper.com/ICANN-notes/dns-root-admin-reform.html It seems that ICANN is this disruptive layer over and above the actual root managers, who seem to be non-commercial entities answerable to no one, who manage it quite nicely, thankyou. No, commerce did *not* invent the Internet - that was DARPA. At 06/08/2002 00:46:46, Lawrence Upton wrote: # ----- Original Message ----- # From: "Duration Press" # To: # Sent: 06 August 2002 00:24 # Subject: Re: Mediation # # | sure it does... # # I say again that it doesn't follow # # perhaps you are confusing the way that things are with the way things could # be... # # if you are saying, commerce cld, if it chose, turn off the www, then ok # # being able to break something is not proof that one can make it # # if you are saying that the www cld not exist without commerce then I # disagree; why not? # # www was not invented by commerce # # | added to the fact that a www can't exist without a domain registrar... # # that cld be organised non-commercially # # L # Roger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Grolier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barnes & Noble gives me full credit and sometimes cash (if I use my ugly voice, which is quiet & real creepy) back for returning books from large publishers such as Doubleday, Harpers Perennials, etc. because I convince fellow shoppers not to buy the returned books. that don't happen at Grolier or any other Indy bookstore Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:27:26 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Boog City presents > >the Baseball issue >Sunday April 14, 6:37 p.m. >the Zinc Bar >90 W. Houston St. >(off La Guardia Pl.) >NYC >$4 >Is there any chance of contributors getting copies of this? If not, could you send me George & Pierre's copies? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:20:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: SEMINAR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SEMINAR AS MURAL AS STORIES THE POETRY. the fabrication mine. in the way the mind survives / / place & the devise of itself. each lone word enlisting the abbreviations. seminal: maternal godly ice face, Diameter off the words ????????????? seat the complainers & operate a show of hands. mIEKAL write to this swiki when no one is looking: spidertangle (or spy yonder tangent...) http://swiki.hfbk.uni-hamburg.de:8080/mIEKAL/1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC Comments: To: baratier@megsinet.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, David...and once you get them...just forward them to me. For now, till then, Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Baratier" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC > >Boog City presents > > > >the Baseball issue > >Sunday April 14, 6:37 p.m. > >the Zinc Bar > >90 W. Houston St. > >(off La Guardia Pl.) > >NYC > >$4 > > >Is there any chance of contributors getting copies of this? > > If not, could you send me George & Pierre's copies? > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > Pavement Saw Press > PO Box 6291 > Columbus OH 43206 > USA > > http://pavementsaw.org > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:56:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: Six Directions Wedding Invitation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, Thank you to the many poets on this List who sent me poems. Your poems will bless my marriage to "Mr/s Poetry" this Saturday in Berkeley, CA. If you are in the Bay Area (CA) and can make it to the exhibition opening which is free and open to the public, please be sure to introduce yourself. (And: Catalina Cariaga will play the ukelele!) All Best, Eileen Tabios --------------- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Dori Caminong (510.549.1808) Pusod Center 1808 Fifth Street Berkeley CA 94710 Saturday, August 10, 3-6 PM, Artist Talk and Opening Reception "POEMS FORM/FROM THE SIX DIRECTIONS" On Exhibit: August 10-September 15, 2002 A Visual Poetry Exhibition and Wedding Happening: The Pusod Center is pleased to present an exhibit of poems, drawings, sculptures and installations by Eileen Tabios "& the Universe." The exhibition also features guest artists who collaborated with Ms. Tabios: V.C. Igarta, Patricia Wood, Alice Brody, Paolo Javier, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Max Gimblett, Thomas Fink and Cal Strobel. The exhibition will open with various festivities on Saturday, August 10, 2002. At 3 p.m., Eileen Tabios will present an artist's talk, followed by a celebration of Ms. Tabios' metaphorical (and real) marriage to "Mr/s Poetry" through a wedding performance "Happening." Poet Oscar Penaranda will "minister" the wedding, aided by poet Tony Robles acting as Mr/s Poetry's "Best Man." Poet Catalina Cariaga will play an instrument from her collection of vintage ukeleles to provide music for the rite where audience members will pin poems on the outfits of two brides: Ms. Tabios' original wedding dress, worn in postmodern mode by poet Barbara Reyes, and the original wedding dress of BWF/Pusod Founder Malou Babilonia worn by cultural activist Dori Caminong. Reception music will be provided by the dynamic SPAMSILOG Band. The Wedding Happening references a wedding tradition in Filipino and other cultures of guests offering support by pinning monies on a newly-wed couple during a dance. In this Happening, poems will be pinned on the wedding outfits to symbolize how Poetry, too, feeds the world. Reflecting the Six Directions concept of integrating the universe into a poem, poets from around the world wrote and sent the poems that will be handed out to the audience for pinning on the wedding outfits. Further reflecting how Poetry feeds ("heals") the world, the Happening will serve as a fundraiser for Pusod's activities to clean up the environment: a private donor has agreed to match any dollars pinned by attendees onto the wedding outfits. See www.bwf.org for more information about BWF/Pusod's activities to facilitate a better understanding of the economic, cultural and ecological conditions that affect the world. Six Directions: north, south, east, west, up and down. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:27:30 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: Mediation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Lawrence ... CL > It was, Cassie > > the aim was to ensure that the lunatics who had brought about nuclear war > could continue to discuss whatever such people discuss after the white > light > began to shine > > www came out of CERN > > L > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "casslewis@excite.com" > To: > Sent: 06 August 2002 00:57 > Subject: Re: Mediation > > > | Hi Lawrence, > | > | I may be wrong but wasn't the internet initially developed by > military-funded researchers in the 1970s? > ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:39:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: book release In-Reply-To: <000c01c23d00$c23a7320$aa0d0e44@vaio> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To all on the east coast. I am going to be on inthe Boston area and in NYC reading Nov. 16th through 18th 2002. I would be glad to read at your university or college, or if you know of a cool book store and have someone to contact could you please back channel me. kari edwards --=20 Check out: http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirteen/ShampooIssueThirteen.html http://poetz.com/fir/may02.htm http://poetz.com/fir/feb02.htm http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/ TO BE RELEASED IN OCTOBER, 2002 FROM: SUBPRESS COLLECTIVE a day in the life of p. a novel by=20 kari edwards an exploration of language, gender, and place. From Anne Waldman: Burroughsian, transgressive, exceedingly sharp and witty, kari edwards has launched a startling and entertaining first novel. The "p" of the title is a visionary, agitator, bemused thinker, voyeur as well as the penultimate protagonist afloat in a world of mixed signs, genders, language, politics, irony. What's solid? This picaresque book is the dislocated yet substantive narration of the future. From Kevin Killain: edwards=B9 book is side-splittingly funny, when it wants to be, and tragic and mystic in turns from page to page. Like Marcel Duchamp's Rrose Selavy, "p" gives a new twist to our received ideas of heroism, kindness and lucidity. From Dennis Cooper: To say kari edwards is a gifted, whip smart, tremendously inventive writer isn't enough. "a day in the Life of p." is much more than just a uniquely graceful and thrilling novel; it reimagines what it means to be an author from the soul outwards. This is an event. kari edwards is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New Langton Art=B9s Bay Area Award in Literature(2002), author of a day in the life of p. to be released by subpress collective (2002), a diary of lies - Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002), Electric Spandex: anthology of writing the queer text, by Pyriform Press (2002), and post/(pink) by Scarlet Press (2001) . sie is also the poetry editor I.F.G.E=B9s Transgender - Tapestry: an International Publication on Transgender issues. hir work has been exhibite= d throughout the united states, including denver art museum, new orleans contemporary art museum, university of california-san diego, and university of massachusetts - amherst. edwards=B9 work can also be found in Blood and Tears: an anthology on Matthew Shepard by Painted leaf Press (2000), Bombay Gin, Aufgabe, Fracture, Belight Fiction, In Posse, Mirage/Period(ical), Van Gogh=B9s Ear, Puppy Flower, Avoid Strange Men, Nerve Lantern, FIR at potz.com= , Shampoo, muse-apprentice-guild and The International Journal of Sexuality and Gender Studies. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:49:35 -0700 Reply-To: Soli Psis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Soli Psis Subject: Fw: fragments of a lost poem Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, collagepoetry@yahoogroups.com, Jim Leftwich , jbberry@hiwaay.net, Rkosti@aol.com Comments: cc: "chris@trnsnd" , Tim Gaze MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reconstruction of Papua Umbilical [_______], fragments of a poem, lost, = due to a blogging interface error. (brut-brux-gurg) =20 sum-junk 444444444444444444444444 Lang Piet and King Coffee lost ?and forgotten, "Uncle of the S?warm", or = URUBU and HUXLEY, GOK=3Dsymbol ?dredged from perforated m?emory, inner = ethology o?f memory's thea?tre, flushed buffer, baboonbitch-wo?lf poet = searches temp files f?or lost pup, turns up stoma?ch clamp, elaborate = f?orm focuses the air, bra?nds the absence, and ?particles lisp over? = the cycle's edge pl?ate, and the river of pho?tographs, occluded details = of ort-edge?d-cloud, what's left betw?een two poles, the old ani?mals, = chaos and order, the s?ong of dual borders, the she?en of a single = Babele?af, a pressurized flowin?g to a fuzzy center, = NEW-lin?gua-lode-s-tone, for Liz T?aylor was an Isis of wh?ite noise, = BOOM?! and shorn, lipl?ess mexican doctor guides t?he aroma banquet to = the ca?ndy skull factory, a shadow moor?ed across the delta, t?he depth = of the plate. Wha?t was original.. WHY BANALITY? WHY SUCH MAJESTIC = ANGUISH? WHY THE WALKER FLY? whose dream lay bla?nk in a favorite bed, = l?eaf of the lip's tato?oing, organ-shed of rising oblation, AN?D MORE = OF UNSPOKEN MUCH peopled under the sh?irt with an archipeligo of = micros?ystems, blocks sunk for a ruined palazzo, the lyr?ical blank = marching, through the empty temp?le, whose pause was questioned, the = id?entity swelled, bru?ise of remembering failed, a ?black conch et?ched = with velvet lava, and somet?hing ironic about velvet, somet?hing which = danced it back fresh, with an aggluti?nate voicing, and the word = mur?dered, just as beautiful as a mo?th, crash, intersection, true = fragm?ents, JOY, rhythm, fountain stock, s?tone word, not even trying to = reconstr?uct the dismem?bered bits of the fa?iled buffer, sad p?ile of = ++URZWAT++ this a true memo?ry, useless and torn from its once-so?cket, = a child's spoon left in the sun-hea?d, nearer the e?nd, unraveled code = species, chem?ical livery loosed a chu?ckling value, lost and bleeding, = this wo?und-light, from a spoon of mini?ng time, cup full of shadow = wob?bling in the footligh?ts, props of the ontolo?gical, MING for all = space?s awake, drift? blossom? sluices? fire stam?en dislodged, circles = a half uncovered ----?------> pistols fired into the crow?d-----------> = of what? rob?ots, pencils, drips on a ma?d unending canvas, like amber = urns s?moking in the submerged truncated hallway?s, dark muscled well to = give birth from a churning s?tomach, a wrinkled umbilical driftin?g away = into the blackness, an?d now I drink amidst the swirling ?remains, that = apple tree bur?nt, that moon behin?d a cliff-cloud, waiting f?or a = birth, I give a coin to a gela?tinous centaur, whose glass chariot = j?oins to the octopus of will, Vima Kadphises kis?sing the severed he?ad = of Antoine Lavo?isier, saying, No?thing is Lost... look at me, anot?her = freckled lap-do?g of the inner Charcot... ?what surfaced makes the hinge glow brighter. Papua. Mife. mush-hosts.? =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:04:37 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Fw: Fw: Re: Grolier Comments: cc: Wick Sloane MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is from the vice president of financial affairs of the University of Hawai`i, not that that matters, except that he moved here from Cambridge, MA. He was steered toward relevant books (including Bamboo Ridge's _Growing Up Local_) by Louisa Solano...anyway I told him there was some Grolier criticism going on and he sent me this...Susan > > No fair. Louisa Solano steers me to alternative stuff all the time. > She always gives me new, interesting poets. She's been very kind to > my daughter and even had her, daughter, taking tickets at readings > when she was in 9th grade. > > It's a miracle the shop exists at all. The shop has two readings a > week in the school year. If there is anyone doing more to promote > poetry on the planet, I don't know who it would be. I do know that > the store is having financial difficulty. Shoplifting is rampant. > Get on the net and order some books from Grolier! Call the shop and > listen to the phone recording. Is there a better statement about > poetry anywhere? > > __________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:20:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Black Iris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/5/02 11:07:34 PM, patrick@PROXIMATE.ORG writes: << Slide higher she said, >> Now that sings!!!! Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:46:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: the stats In-Reply-To: <000101c23ce1$6ef7ffd0$6c59bbcc@satellite> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" what's most interesting to me about those #'s is that women comprise maybe, what, 15% of the "top 100" (yes?---assuming i can tell from the names)... also, the #'s don't account for length of posts (i generally go on some when i post, whereas some in the "top 20" post, as a rule, 2-3 liners)... so though there's talk of the increasing gender equity of the internet, fact is, on this list anyway, of those who post most often, women are clearly underrepresented (i.e., in purely statistical terms, as measured against the general population, as opposed, say, to the population of poets)... i wonder how this 15% compares with the number of women subbed to this list?... also interesting is that one of the "top 2" (richard t) does not hail from the u.s... given the stats we regularly receive on subscribership by country, where u.s. subscribers comprise something like 87% of the list community, this might be thought somewhat remarkable... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Mediation In-Reply-To: <20020805235732.66A9E3E2C@xmxpita.excite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This was posted: I may be wrong but wasn't the internet initially developed by military-funded researchers in the 1970s? I Reply: Now now, we all know Al Gore invented the Internet. I don't know where you all get you information. (. . .) Best, Wm Shakespeare ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: the stats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It was noted: some in the "top 20" post, as a rule, 2-3 liners I Reply: As someone who didn't make the TOP 20, I now see my way clear. I now have a goal. A future. Something to aspire to! Best, JG (who prefers one liners, but two will do) (in a pinch) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:04:24 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: post a poem: okay, here's another In-Reply-To: <000c01c23d00$c23a7320$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cuento Negro 3 The itinerant private dick pitched three shirts to the ravenous East Wind. Over in Timor, the man squinted through a greasy monocle. The chiaroscuric Lucky Strike has breathed its last tomorrow. What nobody could figure out was how the body arranged itself in that position; was the wind involved? Did the dogs growl singularly? The clever man never asks why, only how. Phantom motivational speakers and captains of industry cavorted in drag through the town square. Eldridge sucked on his pipe. There must be a way to corner the market on buttonfly boxers without upsetting the delicate environmental balance. Three fingers of scotch may help solve the rebus. And where are you going said backward to forethought—to the badlands, baby, with a fluster of birds and a misplaced ax handle. Go tell it to the molehill; this is getting fishier all the time. The basset hounds persisted in their lowing. Hired men were little more than chattel. This is the third chanson and the windows are still wet. Tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:41:11 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: Peom Continued. Part IV. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed IV. Just like in the morning opening your eyes, that one single moment, like a slight touch of earth on your still almost unawake mind the unknown space falling on your eyes. There thinking it all, is something could be a rendezvous with that same old dream of life meaning that you keep looking. And roads all wide long- empty. _________________________________________________________________ Med MSN Foto kan du enkelt dela med dig av dina fotografier och beställa kopior: http://photos.msn.se ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:39:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: quipus 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit quipus 5 incant himself of the like practices o the limbs a prophet of the fever o by certain would acquire fever patient o in a cured and even o was the country there o tion who revealed belief himself o stances hidden have been condemned had rotted o place at cured o others to have disappeared o such the recognized as trials they bind o often with new wonder and o as throughout and o craft many that knots tions of the world if fever could rid from "as a wet line knots easily" SAMSARA CONGERIES mIEKAL aND ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:00:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Myung Mi Kim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Poetics Program at SUNY-Buffalo is delighted to announce that Myung Mi Kim will be joining our Core Faculty this Fall. She joins Ming-Qian Ma, who came to the faculty of the Poetics Program this past Fall. More information on the Poetics Program , which is part of the Department of English, at http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics. As a welcome to Buffalo, R. D. Pohl had written a good introduction to Myung's work for the Buffalo News. Bob Pohl has a monthly poetry page in the News, with articles, listings, and poems -- a very unusual, but very welcome, feature for a daily newspaper. Charles Bernstein **** No stranger to a strange land Myung Mi Kim is joining the faculty at the University at Buffalo. By R.D. POHL Special to The News 8/4/2002 "I am the perpetual foreigner at the door of the demand to specify the purpose of (my) talk (what is it good for?)," Myung Mi Kim told attendees at a recent poetry conference, "how to evoke a poetics that does not capitulate to terms sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant discourses invested in "the point of the talk.' It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, avulse and engender acts of speaking. (This) talk, if in relation to the task of writing, cannot proceed by argument; it proceeds by enactment - the something made and the process of something being made." This pointed comment at the outset of Kim's presentation indicates a great deal about her work. Among leading contemporary American poets, she may be the one most committed to rendering what she has referred to as the "infinitesimally divisible moment," as a unit of expression. In her four collections of poetry, she has developed a brilliant, if challenging, contrapuntal style consisting of phrases, images, sentence fragments, snippets of dialogue and quotations from other texts drawn together not so much by some sort of overarching narrative logic as by a deeper emotional thematic closer, by way of analogy, to the way musical composers are commonly believed to work. Later this month, Kim will leave her Northern California home and teaching position at San Francisco State University to join the faculty of the University at Buffalo as the newest addition to the Poetics Program. Despite her West Coast roots, she is no stranger to UB, having visited here twice on residencies for the Poetics Program's Wednesdays at 4 Plus Series. Born in 1957 in Seoul, South Korea, Kim came to the United States with her family at age nine. In "Under Flag," her award-winning first book of poems originally published by Kelsey Street Press in 1991, she captured the confusing circumstances of her upbringing in authoritarian Cold War era South Korea and the culture shock of sudden total immersion into a new language, consumer society, and the ideology of 1960s era America through the eyes of a pre-adolescent. "Must it ring so true/ So we must sing it," she wrote in the fractured, discontinuous yet oddly lyrical style that would come to define her work, "The slide carousel's near burn-out and yet/ Flash and one more picture of how we were meant to be." Conversely, the volume's title poem worked by juxtaposing lists of military equipment and fragmented descriptions of its usage with a child's conception of borders and national identity. The concepts of citizenship, gender, and process of naturalization were the focus of another passage: "Who is mother tongue, who is father country?" wrote Kim in what became the volume's most quoted line. If many readers accepted the abstracted, non-narrative techniques of "Under Flag" as perfectly suited to the material, Kim's continued refinement of these strategies in her subsequent volumes met at least initially with some resistance. In her second volume, "Bounty," originally published in 1996 by Chax Press, she explored a constellation of gender related themes including birth and motherhood without resorting to the construction of a narrative subject (an "I" or "she") to which all the disparate material she brought to the text could cohere. No doubt the omission was intentional and offered in some sense as a critique of confessional poetry and other misuses of the ego in Western literature, but it also suggested a distanced, almost clinical approach to the material of intimate experience. Kim's 1998 volume "Dura" (Sun & Moon Press) is a single, book-length poem examining the legacy of Korean immigrant women in late 20th century America. Reading through her work, one is reminded of what the late Donald Barthelme said about his own minimalist short stories. "Fragments are the only form I trust," he once told an interviewer. Kim prefers the philosopher Adorno's more elaborate formulation: "The fragment is that portion of the totality of the work that opposes totality." The University of California Press published Kim's fourth collection of poems, "Commons," earlier this year. Like much of her earlier work, the poems in this volume are symphonic - dealing in major and minor themes like agriculture and the development of plant life right alongside various accounts of vivisection, polemics for Third World debt relief and expositions on how various glyphs and phonemes contribute to the act of speech. The book's fifth and final section, "Pollen Fossil Record," consists of a kind of appendix and amplification of Kim's current thinking about her work and poetry in general. In describing the scope of the current work, she writes: "COMMONS elides multiple sites: reading and text making, discourses and disciplines, documents and documenting. Fluctuating. Proceeding by fragment, by increment. Through proposition, parataxis, contingency-approximating nerve, line, song." One of the functions of poetry, she concludes, is "to mobilize the notion of our responsibility to one another in social space." To this end, she sees "poets as agents for the most arduous, the most dangerous cause there is: to love the other, even before being loved." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: send a poem to poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Whispering Widows: A Checklist ___Fantastic plots, conspliracies; inventions" [Bleiler ]. ... When the lives of two become entangled, the ___Formal acknowledgment of a financial responsibility for its family members was in 1794, when the Army allotted cash payments to orphans of ... ___Near her always, Red and B finish up their conversation and Red moves back to crouch beside ... I need to go through a ." And starts ticking things off with ... ___One more time, just to ... must not rest until the sick are healed, the ... After some whispering amongst roughly a dozen of his men ... ___Impact, their heads were both out of the ... DATING DON'TS AND DON'TS A Handy ... I wasn't kissing her, I was whispering ... ___You may want to out ... "I will ne'er consent," consented. ... But sighs subside, and tears (even ') shrink ... ___Books are added as they ... back regularly for new titles. ... diet doctor had won over the richest ... ___ . s; ing; ed CHEER. ... lids LIMB. limbs LIQUID. liquids . ... WHISPER. whispers; whispering; whispered WHISTLE. ... wickedest; wickeder; wickedly WIDOW. ___CON ARTISTS: How To Spot And Stop Them ... it is working well, particularly among older ... you hear your own better judgment ___This random, unsystematic... sway reluctant arms, in whispering ... synoptic text (no systematic ... Defrauding and orphans. ... Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: Regarding Liz Waldner's Dark Would: Judith Butler, Heidegger & Dante MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii First, let me say that I am working on a review of Waldner's new books and am curious as to other's ideas regarding this question: In Walnder's Dark Would, does anyone see Butler's notion of gender as performative as a sort of link between Heidegger's attempt to understand/define the nature of a Thing and Dante's quest for the Beloved? I mean the way Dante's quest, generally thought of as an "act", is "thinged", while gender, generally thought of as a "thing" is performed or "acted". (Walner uses Dante & Heideggar as epigraphs for the book) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > No stranger to a strange land > > Myung Mi Kim is joining the faculty at the University at Buffalo. > > By R.D. POHL > Special to The News > 8/4/2002 > > > "I am the perpetual foreigner at the door of the demand to specify the > purpose of (my) talk (what is it good for?)," Myung Mi Kim told attendees > at a recent poetry conference, "how to evoke a poetics that does not > capitulate to terms sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant > discourses invested in "the point of the talk.' It is not the certitude of > truth content, but it's permeations that attract, avulse and engender acts > of speaking. (This) talk, if in relation to the task of writing, cannot > proceed by argument; it proceeds by enactment - the something made and the > process of something being made." > > This pointed comment at the outset of Kim's presentation indicates a great > deal about her work. I hope not. For someone supposedly trying not to "capitulate to terms sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant discourses invested in 'the point of the talk,'" she sure doesn't veer much from the acadominant discourse and outlook that's prevailed in English departments for twenty years or more. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:57:18 -0700 Reply-To: rova@rova.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rova Saxophone Quartet Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amen, brother... I actually talked to David and sent him a SASE about a month ago to help the process but still haven't received it yet... what gives? --David Hadbawnik -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:29 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Boog City Baseball issue pub party 4/14 NYC >Boog City presents > >the Baseball issue >Sunday April 14, 6:37 p.m. >the Zinc Bar >90 W. Houston St. >(off La Guardia Pl.) >NYC >$4 Is there any chance of contributors getting copies of this? >free Bazooka, Cracker Jacks, and Baseball Cards > >and (now that I have your attention) > >readings from issue six of Boog City > >including Bill Luoma, Carol Mirakove, and Elinor Nauen, among others > >an excerpt from the classic United Artists baseball book >"Yo-Yos with Money" by Ted Berrigan and Harris Schiff >being read by Ed Berrigan and Schiff > >live ballpark music performed by our organist >Daniel Saltzman > >and deluxe pinch hitters stepping up to the dish >(think Manny Mota with some power) >one of whom could be you > >(bring your own or someone else's baseball words, >and you could be called on when the pitcher's due up in the bottom of >the 8th. >three minutes or less please. thanks) > >and all sorts of other hijinks >(our national anthem may be rewritten and performed, >if her voice has recovered, by a >Brooklyn poet who speaks Japanese and sings like an angel, >but I've said too much already) > >brought to you by your hosts > >baseball issue editor and Zinc Bar curator >Douglas Rothschild > >and Boog City editor >David A. Kirschenbaum > >for more information >212-206-8899 >editor@boogcity.com > >--------- > >issue six of Boog City, the baseball issue, >includes work on baseball from the following: > >Tom Devaney * Don Byrd and Pierre Joris * Elinor Nauen * Ed Smith * Bill >Luoma * Andrew Schelling * >Angela Bowering * George Bowering * Lawrence Ferlinghetti * Kevin >Gallagher * Owen Hill * >Marcella Durand * Ann Elliot Sherman * Carol Mirakove * Sharon Mesmer * >David Hadbawnik > >and > >Greg Fuchs on our other national pastime, war > >Stacee Sledge on The Mysteries of Life > >the debut of our comics section, edited by Gary Sullivan >with work from Josh Neufeld and Javelin P and a >review of the 9/11 comics collections by Sullivan > >and >poetry from >Philip Good, Chris Martin, and Stephen Paul Miller > >now up to 20 pages to serve you better > >Copies are available to the first 100 respondents to this here email for >free, >simply send an 8.5" x 11" $1.04 sase to the below address, attn: Boog >City 6. > >as ever, >david > >-- >David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher >Boog City >351 W.24th St., Suite 19E >NY, NY 10011-1510 >T: (212) 206-8899 >F: (212) 206-9982 >editor@boogcity.com -- George Bowering How can I thank you? Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 21:57:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: Entropy Slices # 2-5 In-Reply-To: <2064758035.1028561941@basinski.lib.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > {S}0002 > > > hi > > > > {S}0003 > > >hi > > >{S}0004 > > >please save this for future use > > >{S}0005 > >now >to make modern and familiar > the earth was a formless void >see Mt. Temehani >the birthplace of the gods >primarily a rest home > or any like institution >and > the only place >to keep foods moist > where the lovely 'Tiare Apetahi' flower grows ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:43:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: reviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Review copies are now available from the author for the Marsh Hawk Press publication on November l of Harriet Zinnes's new book of poems, DRAWING ON THE WALL. Harriet Zinnes HZinnes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:47:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: genesis character essay 1 (apologies for length - never again!) (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (no character repeated; thanks to Florian Cramer for perl program) genesis character essay: political economy of language 1 in the beginning god created heaven and earth . was without form , void ; darkness upon face of deep spirit moved waters said let there be light saw that it good divided from called day he night evening morning were first a firmament midst divide made which under above so second gathered together unto one place dry land appear gathering seas bring forth grass herb yielding seed fruit tree after his kind whose is itself brought third lights to them for signs seasons days years give two great greater rule lesser stars also set over fourth abundantly moving creature hath life fowl may fly open whales every living moveth their winged blessed saying fruitful multiply fill fifth cattle creeping thing beast creepeth us make man our image likeness have dominion fish sea air all own him male female replenish subdue behold i given you bearing shall meat wherein green had very sixth gene thus heavens finished hoston seventh ended work rested sanctified because these are generations when they lord plant field before grew not caused rain till ground but went up mist watered whole formed dust breathed into nostrils breath became soul planted garden eastward eden put whom out grow pleasant sight food knowledge evil river water thence parted four heads name pison compasseth havilah where gold bdellium onyx stone gihon same ethiopia hiddekel goeth toward east assyria euphrates took dress keep commanded thou mayest freely eat shalt eatest thereof surely die should alone will an help meet adam see what would call whatsoever gave names found sleep fall slept ribs closed flesh instead rib taken woman her this now bone my bones she therefore leave father mother cleave wife both naked ashamed serpent more subtil than any yea ye ? we trees neither touch lest doth know then your eyes opened as gods knowing desired wise did husband knew sewed fig leaves themselves aprons heard voice walking cool hid presence amongst art thy afraid myself who told thee wast hast eaten whereof shouldest gavest me done beguiled cursed belly go enmity between bruise head heel greatly sorrow conception children desire hearkened sake thorns thistles sweat bread return wife's eve coats skins clothed become hand take live ever sent whence drove placed at cherubims flaming sword turned way conceived bare cain gotten again brother abel keeper sheep tiller process time came pass offering firstlings flock fat respect wroth countenance fell why fallen if doest well accepted sin lieth door talked rose against slew am brother's blood crieth mouth receive tillest henceforth yield strength fugitive vagabond punishment can bear driven come findeth slay whosoever slayeth vengeance sevenfold mark finding kill dwelt nod enoch builded city son born irad begat mehujael methusael lamech wives adah other zillah jabal such dwell tents jubal handle harp organ tubal-cain instructer artificer brass iron sister naamah hear hearken speech slain wounding young hurt avenged truly seventy seth appointed another enos began men book lived hundred thirty begotten eight sons daughters nine died five seven twelve ninety cainan fifteen mahalaleel forty ten sixty jared methuselah walked three eighty noah comfort concerning toil hands old shem ham japheth fair chose always strive yet twenty giants those mighty renown wickedness imagination thoughts heart only continually repented grieved destroy fowls repenteth grace just perfect corrupt filled violence looked corrupted end through ark gopher wood rooms pitch within fashion length cubits breadth fifty height window cubit finish side lower stories even do flood establish covenant sons' sort alive gather according house seen righteous generation clean by sevens beasts cause nights substance off six hundredth year noah's month seventeenth fountains broken windows selfsame entered bird shut increased lift prevailed exceedingly high hills covered upward prevail mountains destroyed things remained remembered wind asswaged stopped restrained returned abated ararat decreased until tenth tops raven fro dried dove no rest sole foot pulled stayed lo olive leaf pluckt removed covering twentieth spake breed kinds altar offered burnt offerings smelled sweet savour curse man's youth smite while remaineth seedtime harvest cold heat summer winter cease fear dread fishes delivered liveth lives require whoso sheddeth shed therein cut token perpetual bow cloud remember look everlasting established canaan overspread husbandman vineyard drank wine drunken uncovered tent nakedness brethren garment laid shoulders backward faces father's awoke younger servant servants enlarge gomer magog madai javan tubal meshech tiras ashkenaz riphath togarmah elishah tarshish kittim dodanim isles gentiles lands tongue families nations cush mizraim phut seba sabtah raamah sabtecha sheba dedan nimrod hunter wherefore kingdom babel erech accad calneh shinar asshur nineveh rehoboth calah resen ludim anamim lehabim naphtuhim pathrusim casluhim (out philistim ,) caphtorim sidon firstborn heth jebusite amorite girgasite hivite arkite sinite arvadite zemarite hamathite afterward canaanites spread abroad border comest gerar gaza goest sodom gomorrah admah zeboim lasha tongues countries eber elder elam arphaxad lud aram uz hul gether mash salah peleg joktan almodad sheleph hazar-maveth jerah hadoram uzal diklah obal abimael ophir jobab dwelling mesha sephar mount language journeyed plain brick burn throughly slime morter build tower top reach scattered down people begin nothing imagined confound understand another's left scatter reu serug nahor terah nineteen abram haran lot nativity ur chaldees abram's sarai nahor's milcah daughter iscah barren child son's law get country kindred shew nation bless blessing curseth departed spoken souls passed sichem moreh canaanite appeared mountain bethel pitched having west hai going still south famine egypt sojourn grievous near enter egyptians say save pray beheld princes pharaoh commended pharaoh's entreated oxen asses menservants maidservants camels plagued plagues didst tell saidst might away rich silver journeys been flocks herds able could strife herdmen lot's perizzite dwelled separate thyself wilt right or depart lifted jordan like zoar separated cities wicked sinners thine northward southward westward seest number numbered arise walk mamre hebron built amraphel king arioch ellasar chedorlaomer tidal war bera birsha shinab shemeber zeboiim bela joined vale siddim salt served thirteenth rebelled fourteenth kings smote rephaims ashteroth karnaim zuzims emims shaveh kiriathaim horites seir el-paran wilderness en-mishpat kadesh amalekites amorites hazezon-tamar (the ;) battle full slimepits fled goods victuals escaped hebrew eschol aner confederate captive armed trained eighteen pursued dan himself hobah damascus back women slaughter valley king's dale melchizedek salem priest most possessor enemies tithes persons mine thread shoelatchet portion eshcol word vision shield exceeding reward seeing childless steward eliezer heir bowels believed counted righteousness inherit whereby heifer goat ram turtledove pigeon each piece birds carcases sun horror surety stranger theirs serve afflict judge fathers peace buried age hither iniquity dark smoking furnace burning lamp pieces kenites kenizzites kadmonites hittites perizzites girgashites jebusites handmaid egyptian hagar maid obtain mistress despised wrong bosom pleaseth dealt hardly angel fountain shur sarai's camest whither flee submit multitude ishmael affliction wild here seeth beer-lahai-roi bered fourscore almighty many abraham possession among circumcised circumcise foreskin betwixt bought money must needs uncircumcised sarah laughed o thee! indeed isaac beget next talking abraham's thirteen plains sat stood ran bowed favour little fetched wash feet yourselves fetch morsel hearts hastened ready quickly measures fine meal knead cakes hearth herd fetcht calf tender hasted butter milk dressed certainly behind stricken ceased manner herself waxed pleasure being laugh too hard denied nay hide command household justice judgment cry whether altogether drew peradventure spare far find sakes answered speak ashes lack forty's oh angry twenty's once ten's soon communing angels gate lords turn servant's tarry rise early ways abide street pressed feast bake unleavened lay compassed round quarter wickedly known shadow roof stand fellow deal worse sore break blindness small wearied besides waxen married seemed mocked arose consumed lingered hold merciful escape stay magnified mercy shewed saving cannot some thither (is ?) overthrow haste risen rained brimstone fire overthrew inhabitants pillar gat smoke feared cave drink lie preserve perceived nor morrow yesternight moab moabites benammi ammon sojourned abimelech dream dead integrity innocency withheld sinning suffered restore prophet ears offended deeds ought sawest thought wander kindness womenservants restored thousand reproved prayed healed fast wombs visited suck weaned mocking cast bondwoman lad bottle putting shoulder wandered beer-sheba spent shrubs bowshot death wept aileth archer paran phichol chief captain swear falsely abimelech's violently wot ewe lambs mean witness digged sware philistines grove philistines' tempt lovest _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:49:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: genesis character essay ii: apologies for length MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII genesis character essay: political economy of language ii reigned stead pau wife's mehetabel matred mezahab places timnah alvah jetheth aholibamah elah pinon kenaz teman mibzar magdiel duke iram dukes edom esau edomites wherein stranger generations feeding report loved peaceably upright sheaves sheaf reign dominion sun moon eleven stars rebuked envied observed vale hebron shechem wandering seekest dothan afar conspired dreamer delivered kill shed wilderness rid stript gilead camels bearing spicery going profit conceal sell content passed merchantmen twenty pit whither killed goats dipped colours son's coat beast doubt sackcloth many comfort midianites certain canaanite chezib wicked marry raise brother's spilled remain widow process shuah judah's sheepshearers hirah goeth shear sheep widow's wrapped herself open timnath grown covered (for .) mayest flock till conceived arose vail widowhood friend adullamite receive pledge woman's openly side shamed kid months tamar played harlot whoredom burnt discern signet bracelets staff acknowledged righteous travail twins travailed midwife broken breach afterward scarlet thread zarah potiphar officer ishmeelites prosperous egyptian overseer egyptian's sake person cast master's wotteth back wickedness hearkened business caught loud got mock voice garment fled kindled master king's favour committed prisoners whatsoever doer keeper prosper offended butlers bakers served continued season looked sad sadly interpretations belong though budded blossoms clusters ripe pressed former wast think kindness mention stolen nothing uppermost bakemeats basket baskets within hang tree birds flesh birthday feast butlership forgat brink slept rank butler remember faults wroth guard's chief baker interpretation young hebrew captain guard interpreted office hanged hastily dungeon shaved changed canst understand interpret bank river fatfleshed meadow poor leanfleshed never badness lean still awoke stalk withered sprung devoured magicians declare thin favoured kine empty blasted east wind sheweth forgotten consume plenty following dream doubled twice established shortly appoint officers lay keep store perish through forasmuch none discreet wise ruled throne ring arrayed vestures fine linen chain ride knee lift foot zaphnath-paaneah king plenteous handfuls round sand numbering without number forget toil caused affliction plenteousness dearth famished storehouses waxed countries look thither faces strange whence remembered dreams dreamed nay nakedness forth fetch kept proved truth else ward prison houses verified verily guilty concerning anguish besought distress required knew understood interpreter turned restore espied restored befell roughly hereby spies true traffick emptied bundle bundles deliver eaten solemnly protest wilt dealt ill whether straitly state kindred tenor require lingered fruits vessels balm honey spices myrrh nuts almonds oversight arise mercy bereaved double slay dine bade afraid seek occasion communed door sir first inn full weight treasure provender noon home present welfare answered health heads obeisance lifted mother's gracious bowels yearn sought where weep entered chamber refrained themselves hebrews birthright marvelled another messes mess times theirs drank merry fill men's sacks sack's spoken soon light far off steward follow dost overtake rewarded drinketh whereby indeed divineth doing overtook thing sacks' mouths steal gold whomsoever bondmen blameless speedily opened searched began eldest sack rent laded city ground deed done wot such can divine clear ourselves iniquity forbid cup peace oh word lord's burn asked or child alone mother loveth leave would saidst more cannot man's youngest torn mischief seeing lad's seeth gray hairs sorrow surety blame ever abide instead bondman lad refrain cried cause stood known aloud doth answer troubled angry send neither earing harvest preserve posterity deliverance ruler throughout thus saith tarry children's lest poverty mouth speaketh glory haste hither benjamin's talked fame heard pleased lade beasts get take regard stuff yours commandment provision each pieces silver changes raiment manner laden meat away departed governor heart believed spirit revived enough journey offered sacrifices visions nation rose beer-sheba wagons goods gotten names hanoch phallu carmi jemuel jamin ohad jachin zohar shaul canaanitish woman gershon kohath merari shelah zerah er onan pharez hezron hamul tola phuvah job shimron sered elon jahleel padan-aram dinah daughters three ziphion haggi shuni ezbon eri arodi areli jimnah ishuah isui serah sister beriah heber malchiel zilpah sixteen asenath poti-pherah priest belah becher ashbel gera naaman ehi rosh muppim huppim ard fourteen hushim jahzeel guni jezer shillem bilhah laban daughter she bare loins besides jacob's sons' wives six souls direct ready chariot meet while since seen shew feed call servants' trade about youth abomination some five presented what occupation shepherds sojourn pasture knowest any men activity among rulers thirty few been attained pilgrimage placed best rameses nourished household families no fainted reason corn failed why presence faileth fail exchange horses asses ended second year hide how money spent cattle ought bodies buy live desolate famine removed cities borders other thereof assigned eat gave sold lands here sow increase four parts own households food saved our lives find law should fifth part except priests pharaoh's country possessions grew multiplied exceedingly seventeen whole time drew nigh must sight thigh deal lie do hast bed's things sick told cometh strengthened sat appeared luz multiply give born issue begettest inheritance padan rachel yet her ephrath same bethlehem beheld dim age could embraced see hath shewed himself toward israel's near stretched guiding wittingly walk fed life long angel redeemed lads named grow midst earth laid displeased held remove manasseh's right refused know truly younger brother greater than seed become multitude nations make set ephraim moreover given portion amorite sword may tell befall gather yourselves together hear hearken reuben firstborn might beginning dignity excellency power unstable water excel because wentest then defiledst couch simeon levi instruments cruelty habitations soul secret assembly mine honour united slew man selfwill cursed anger fierce wrath cruel scatter whom praise hand neck thine enemies lion's whelp art gone stooped couched lion rouse sceptre depart judah nor lawgiver until shiloh gathering binding foal ass's colt choice vine washed garments clothes blood grapes red wine teeth white milk zebulun dwell sea haven ships border zidon issachar ass couching between two burdens rest pleasant bowed shoulder bear became servant tribute judge dan serpent way adder path biteth horse heels rider fall backward waited salvation o lord gad troop overcome last asher bread fat yield royal dainties naphtali hind loose giveth goodly words fruitful bough well whose branches run over wall archers sorely grieved shot hated bow abode strength arms strong hands mighty (from thence shepherd stone :) even help by almighty who bless heaven deep lieth under breasts womb prevailed above blessings progenitors utmost bound everlasting hills on crown head separate benjamin ravin wolf morning devour prey at night divide spoil these twelve tribes every one blessing blessed charged fathers sarah rebekah wife leah purchase therein heth end commanding feet bed yielded ghost gathered genesis compare revised standard version gene kissed embalm physicians forty fulfilled those are threescore past if found grace eyes speak ears lo grave have digged shalt thou let come again go swear pharaoh elders only flocks herds left goshen both chariots horsemen company came threshingfloor there mourned great very sore lamentation made seven days inhabitants canaanites floor atad grievous mourning egyptians wherefore name called abel-mizraim beyond jordan according commanded sons carried canaan cave machpelah bought field possession buryingplace ephron hittite mamre returned into with bury after had buried that dead peradventure hate certainly requite us all sent messenger command say their sin did pray thee forgive trespass father wept when went fell down before face behold we be thy servants am place ? for thought evil against me ; but meant good pass as it is day save much people alive now therefore fear not nourish your little ones comforted spake kindly them dwelt father's house lived saw ephraim's third generation also machir son manasseh were brought upon joseph's knees said his brethren i die bring out this unto land which sware abraham isaac to jacob took oath the children of israel saying god will surely visit you ye shall carry up my bones from hence so joseph died being an hundred ten years old : they embalmed him , and he was put a coffin in egypt . _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bluck Ufus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bluck Ufus haf feckce a lifghs ofn bluckck afefs. hick bofdy she fluckghs aff leckmbs ssfifschockng ufnd swafs ckefllufng hickps ofnd lush. lafps sweckndlifd kofsses uckn a pafcs efck fifock. lufng saech ifnd a bckosh, a shufssaf checkge a wife fckofm nufck sa a bckefss. wifx cfockscufns sa hef cockufla flasheckd cfifmsockn ufnd anfeckldifng. ofgnucksaf. slefde hickghof she sufd, acknd she sefng ifck a shfosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Black Iris Her face a light in black iris. Her body the flight of limbs stretching and sweat rolling hips and lush. Lips swindled kisses in a pact of fire. Long touch and a brush, a shatter charge a wire from neck to a breast. Wax crescent to her corola flushed crimson and unfolding. Ignite. Slide higher she said, and the song of a thrush. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 01:07:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right on, Bob! Murat In a message dated 8/6/02 7:23:41 PM, bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: > hope not. For someone supposedly trying not to "capitulate to terms > >sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant discourses invested >in > >'the point of the talk,'" she sure doesn't veer much from the acadominant > >discourse and outlook that's prevailed in English departments for twenty > >years or more. > > > > --Bob G. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Summer Sizzles at the Ear Inn--August 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ear Inn SUMMER READINGS 326 Spring Street New York City 3:00 PM FREE Subway--N,R/Prince; C,E/Spring; 1,2/Canal August 10 Regie Cabico, Oliver de la Paz, Joseph Legaspi plus open August 17 Donna Allegra, Rachel Kramer Bussel, Bree Coven, Lisa E. Davis, Stephanie Schroeder plus open August 24 Matthew Cooperman, Amy Meckler, T. Cole Rachel plus open For more info, contact Michael Broder at earinnpoetry@nyc.rr.com or visit our Web site: http://home.nyc.rr.com/earinnreadings ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:03:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <189.bf796e6.2a82051c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't really understand these sentiments. Which English departments are you blanketly talking about? I mean--I guess it's sort of dumb to start debating about how much of an "outsider" or "insider" Kim is in her poetry, it's alarming to me--unbelievable, nearly--that one might read Kim's poetry and feel it in line with "acadominant discourse"-- to me it is profoundly visceral, not a bit unpleasant (in the way one prefers art to be), and beautifully graspable/ungraspable. i am pleased--pleased--that there exist a few departments in this country that nurture, welcome, and help to cultivate new and innovative work...poets who are as radically different in style, technique, approach, and poetics as, just for example, Robert Creeley, Susan Howe, Myung Mi Kim, and Charles Bernstein, might find themselves attached to the same program... but i am puzzled when you say this is an "acadominant" discourse...dominant where? --- Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Right on, Bob! > > Murat > > > > In a message dated 8/6/02 7:23:41 PM, > bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: > > > hope not. For someone supposedly trying not to > "capitulate to terms > > > >sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant > discourses invested > >in > > > >'the point of the talk,'" she sure doesn't veer > much from the acadominant > > > >discourse and outlook that's prevailed in English > departments for twenty > > > >years or more. > > > > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bluck Otis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bluck Otis hat feck a lit his ofen bluck ack a fetus. hick bo fody she tluck a fat leckumbos sise fita schockung u fond swati s fell u tang hickups o fond lush. latips sweck end alifud kotosses uck in a pa fecs etack fi tock. lufung saech i tond a bickosh, a shuf essat check age a wife fuck o tom nufick sa a becketass. wi fux cotock i secu fans sa het cock u ful a flash eck od citi fema sock un u fond an ifeckeladitung. o fog i nuck es at. sleta de hick ug hot she sufod, ackind she seteng i fack a shu tosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Bluck Ufus haf feckce a lifghs ofn bluckck afefs. hick bofdy she fluckghs aff leckmbs ssfifschockng ufnd swafs ckefllufng hickps ofnd lush. lafps sweckndlifd kofsses uckn a pafcs efck fifock. lufng saech ifnd a bckosh, a shufssaf checkge a wife fckofm nufck sa a bckefss. wifx cfockscufns sa hef cockufla flasheckd cfifmsockn ufnd anfeckldifng. ofgnucksaf. slefde hickghof she sufd, acknd she sefng ifck a shfosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Black Iris Her face a light in black iris. Her body the flight of limbs stretching and sweat rolling hips and lush. Lips swindled kisses in a pact of fire. Long touch and a brush, a shatter charge a wire from neck to a breast. Wax crescent to her corola flushed crimson and unfolding. Ignite. Slide higher she said, and the song of a thrush. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:20:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <20020807140316.82534.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I agree with Master Kazim Ali on this one! Myung Mi Kim is an interesting poet, and a great teacher, and she's very sharp, funny, natural, the students at Buffalo will warm to her I'm sure, all right, maybe she comes across a little stilted in this particular press clipping, but maybe she was nervous! And her remarks may have been wrenched out of context, after all, someone inserted an apostrophe into her word "its" which I'm sure she didn't put in herself. Give her a chance. She doesn't need any defense from me, that's for sure, but I, like many others here in San Francisco, am sad that she's left us yet happy she's off to a place that I presume she will find even more appreciation (and money too I expect) (at any rate rents have got to be cheaper there LOL). Myung Mi Kim is a warm, honest, engaged woman with lots to offer to both readers and students. Go Buffalo! -- Kevin K. >I don't really understand these sentiments. Which >English departments are you blanketly talking about? > >I mean--I guess it's sort of dumb to start debating >about how much of an "outsider" or "insider" Kim is in >her poetry, it's alarming to me--unbelievable, >nearly--that one might read Kim's poetry and feel it >in line with "acadominant discourse"-- > >to me it is profoundly visceral, not a bit unpleasant >(in the way one prefers art to be), and beautifully >graspable/ungraspable. > >i am pleased--pleased--that there exist a few >departments in this country that nurture, welcome, and >help to cultivate new and innovative work...poets who >are as radically different in style, technique, >approach, and poetics as, just for example, Robert >Creeley, Susan Howe, Myung Mi Kim, and Charles >Bernstein, might find themselves attached to the same >program... > >but i am puzzled when you say this is an "acadominant" >discourse...dominant where? > >--- Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > Right on, Bob! > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/6/02 7:23:41 PM, > > bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: > > > > > hope not. For someone supposedly trying not to > > "capitulate to terms > > > > > >sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant > > discourses invested > > >in > > > > > >'the point of the talk,'" she sure doesn't veer > > much from the acadominant > > > > > >discourse and outlook that's prevailed in English > > departments for twenty > > > > > >years or more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain We've been around this bush a few times on this list -- I won't get into a critique of her quoted statement or arguments about her poetry today -- BUT I would invite anybody (well, maybe anybody outside the Berkeley area) to enter their nearest University Department of English today and poll the faculty to see how many recognize the name of Myung Mi Kim,,,, show them some poems and ask if they'd teach them <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:12:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit q? bush we've been around bush be pun? sheila ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:56:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Poem 4 Jabberwock MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Catamarans Can't Can Can Or can they? Going jibberish today? "A set of random jibberish telling the cell how to evolve proteins" "There is a wonderful story about Dr. Erickson and a schizrophreic patient who spoke only jibberish. For one year Dr. Erickson would listen to the patient talk and than go back to his office and close the door. Than one day, to everyone's surprise, Dr. Erickson walked up to the patient and began to talk to him in jibberish. He had been practicing for over a year behind his closed door to understand and speak the patients jibberish. The schizrophrenic patient stepped backwards, looked disoriented, and than blurted out in perfect english, "What did you say?". From that point on they spoke in english." From http://www.biosonicenterprises.com/polaritytherapy/ar-polarity5.html And from The Pedant's Corner of Issue 324 of Postscript, the Official Magazine of the Oxford University Scout and Guide Group http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ousgg/ps/ps324/ Dear Sir, Some members may recall an email I sent to the group's mailing list during the summer vac. concerning the word "gibberish". I feel that it is worth repeating here for the benefit of those who were not members or were not paying attention to their email at the time. Quite by accident as I was moving house, I happened upon the etymology of "gibber-ish". It appears that gibberish is named after a certain Mr Geber, a scientist who wrote down all his ideas in code so that they would not be stolen. They thus appeared to other people as "Geberish". Hence it would seem that the correct spelling of the word is "gibberish" and not, as the Editor would have it, "jibberish". I trust that the editor will not exchange the letters "g" and "j" in this article for comic effect (ha ha). Yours, Mr D A Ball, ex-Keble So it's supposed to be "geberish" huh? Well, logically, since "gibberish" requires alteration of the original word by swapping a vowel and adding a letter, I would argue that it should be spelt "jebberish". Ha ha. Dear Sir, I am angered by the disgracefully low standard of editing in recent editions of PostScript. The words "Winter Walking(TM)" have not been rendered in the correct font (Issue 322 pp6-7, Issue 323 pp1). I trust that this will be rectified in the next issue. Yours, Mr D A Ball (ex-Keble) In fact, this was a deliberate facelift for OUSGG's popular trip, which has borne the same logo for five years now, since I first introduced it in 1995. It was felt that the new logo brings the Winter Walking brand smoothly into the twenty first century. Dear Sir, I would like to complain about the article "OUSGG: Alpha to Omega" in issue 322 of this esteemed publication. By using the Greek alphabet, the author has omitted the letter W. I fear that this has led to the far more important omission of Winter Walking(TM) from the glossary, which is not something that can pass unremarked upon. For those who are not aware, I quote a letter written by the author himself and published in issue 297: "Winter Walking(TM) - Go to it if you do nothing else... Go to it if you do nothing else... Go to it if you do nothing else..." Mr D A Ball (ex Keble)I'd already started before I realised that w wasn't Greek for w. Sorry. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:26:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/7/02 11:31:07 AM, aln10@PSU.EDU writes: << I would invite anybody (well, maybe anybody outside the Berkeley area) to enter their nearest University Department of English today and poll the faculty to see how many recognize the name of Myung Mi Kim,,,, show them some poems and ask if they'd teach them >> I expose my students to everything, including langpo, vizpo, and golfpro. This is fairly common, I think, in and around NYC. Middle America might be a different story. There are, of course, Profs everywhere whose expertise is not in Modern/Postmodern lit. When they teach a general lit course, they likely stick to the easy "contemporary" stuff or the tried and true ancients, rather than wrestle with difficult work outside of their fields. I've never known a Victorian scholar, for example, to take a crack at Ashbery. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. A Tulane University professor (when I was a teaching assistant there) once complained that I was "teaching pornography." The book in question was Naked Lunch. However, the majority of Profs in the department supported me and my problem disappeared. So at the very least, there are pockets of support everywhere, and lots of it, I imagine, on the coasts. I could be wrong, of course. And Kim, I agree, is probably a question mark in most English departments. The few know of her; the majority, their attentions elsewhere, might never know, or care. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:43:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Myung Mi Kim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed from "Thirty and Five Books," from Dura by Myung Mi Kim : : Never having been here when the sun rose. Flowering amid which deer. The suggestion of deer. Adjustments of liar lair. Having arrived here. Fever, thumb, bruise. Speckled event of eggs, their ingenious pointed and rounded ends. Stacked against time against spoilage. To be stitched-threadbare to elaborate clover. Fences. What place assume to know. Swift savage slop. Great speech. If rifled, if bared. Fair speech resolve single will. Grateful inattention of the grasses. Taller than the dog, shorter than the deer. Candle to withstand cholera. : : Various course of seasons found. To be the daughter of the merchant the doctor the magistrate. Windpipes were assisting phlegm. Deployments to the assigned parallel. Sheer volume of river traffic. Ascension, declination and distance of the measured body. Registers and demands of travel. How was it to be the first arrivals in rows and columns. Place the banner and claim the island. Usury and begetting. Daughter of a fish monger daughter of time. Peculiarity of state and nation (as) accounted. Unrecognized she went about the city. Admit graininess. Consummate resin. Munition sighted and scored. : : Heat the gaping ground constrains. Remind the herders and poison growth. Cover distances deemed impossible to cover. Great highway indicated by means of stones. Invention where the tomatoes dangling from one end are not the tomatoes hanging from the other end. And the unremarkable become the stuff of dust. Where is the start. Dress of blue chiffon and a white straw hat in its own hat box. Heat the gaping ground constrains. Turbulence. Ridicule. The desktops tilt up and you may place inside them several books and a lunch. Various kinds of rice in the manner of living in that country. : : Obdurate sound. Thereby insert interpret. Receive materials lumber nails and oats. Building is a process. Light is an element. Towering height of wagons and their ruts. Cross their limits cut a sloping way. For this book will be a truthful one. On material as varied as berry and stone. Flayed skin of animals. Fire brick. Moveable type. A glut of gathered rain. Nuance of grass and digestion. Metal ground to a point. : : Now these names and so amend. As starts (texts) lament. Metal in farming, transportation, commerce. The lawn is a signature of the growth within. Duck feet strewn after slaughter as much a part of the yard as the butter churn or rusty apple corer. Fortified lake inaccessible to any other body of water. Timid unhoned muscle, greeted with doubtful billows. Turn the wheel. Take to the streets and fairs. Wild asparagus hidden until it flowers. : : Swarming preface. The box to be carried to the cemetery. In it a claw rake and a dandelion picker. Weeds over what bodies to in the ground. Call pinecones denominators. Call what we eat temporary. Steep referent protected by windbreak. Indicate the manner and recess. Poor. Having to found descriptions for things never seen. Follow the staking. Thornbush. Blood and commingling fat. Letters a carving a chipping. Function in cold and heat. Except for heat that bakes limb and liver. When there is a pause, pause. Duration that a pair of starlings' participation magnetized. A constant. A trajectory. A pair of starlings' knowledge of the universe. from sunmoon.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, it's an old bush, but I have a neurotic need to pop off once in a while. Note that I used my word, "acadominant," which has not gotten a set public meaning, though I certainly know what I mean by it--and it isn't what dominates all universities, but what is dominant in the academically most prestigious universities. What is qualitatively dominant--as in what Modern Language seminars (or whatever they are called) are dominated by. In any discipline there's always a huge middle that just plods along, vaguely familiar with what's going on at the previous generation's cutting edge, which is generally what is acadominant, similarly familiar with pre-Shakespearean literature, or the equivalent, and almost entirely unfamiliar with the actual cutting edge of their time. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALDON L NIELSEN" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant > We've been around this bush a few times on this list -- I won't get into a > critique of her quoted statement or arguments about her poetry today -- > > BUT > > > I would invite anybody (well, maybe anybody outside the Berkeley area) to enter > their nearest University Department of English today and poll the faculty to > see how many recognize the name of Myung Mi Kim,,,, show them some poems and > ask if they'd teach them Ah, but show them her credentials, as those kind of people view them, and I'll bet few would not invite her into their faculty. Which is okay with me. I'm just tired of people who seem to need to subvert the language in opposition to some conspiracy that uses language to subjgate us instead of writing poems--with the language that is everybody's tool, and does have an objective communicable meaning, and is almost entirely unpolitical, though able to be used for political purposes, the way Kim uses it. --Bob G. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:05:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/06/2002 7:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: > I hope not. For someone supposedly trying not to "capitulate to terms > sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant discourses invested in > 'the point of the talk,'" she sure doesn't veer much from the acadominant > discourse and outlook that's prevailed in English departments for twenty > years or more. > Especially for the particular English Department that she's headed for.... joe brennan.... They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:08:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I don't really understand these sentiments. Which > English departments are you blanketly talking about? See another post of mine. > I mean--I guess it's sort of dumb to start debating > about how much of an "outsider" or "insider" Kim is in > her poetry, it's alarming to me--unbelievable, > nearly--that one might read Kim's poetry and feel it > in line with "acadominant discourse"-- Reread my post. It was about the acadominant prose spout of hers that was quoted. I said I hoped it did NOT indicate the kind of poetry she wrote. > i am pleased--pleased--that there exist a few > departments in this country that nurture, welcome, and > help to cultivate new and innovative work...poets who > are as radically different in style, technique, > approach, and poetics as, just for example, Robert > Creeley, Susan Howe, Myung Mi Kim, and Charles > Bernstein, might find themselves attached to the same > program... Who are the innovative poets in that department? I mean the ones using techniques that were not in wide use thirty years ago? Not that that's necessarily what poets need to do to be valuable, but what they need to do to be considered innovative, it seems to me. > but i am puzzled when you say this is an "acadominant" > discourse...dominant where? MLA, if I have the initials right. All university English departments,--see my earlier post. Most of these go their own outdated way but are cowed by SUNY Buffalo, Berkeley, Stanford, Duke, etc., the way my present hometown, Port Charlotte, Florida, has poetry readings whose most advanced participants sometimes read other poets like Merwin, and think of Bernstein's poetry as advanced calculus to their arithmetic. They, mostly secretly, look down on it, but still accept it as the dominant high-culture form of poetry. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:13:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/7/02 2:04:05 PM, bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: << In any discipline there's always a huge middle that just plods along, vaguely familiar with what's going on at the previous generation's cutting edge, which is generally what is acadominant, similarly familiar with pre-Shakespearean literature, or the equivalent, and almost entirely unfamiliar with the actual cutting edge of their time. --Bob G. >> Yep. Most academics, like most people, just do their jobs, their imaginations wasted in political/careerist machinations. So how much imagination is in play, anyway? Not much. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:26:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yeah, ditto Kevin et al. I don't understand why people are in a tizzy about this. While yes, certainly the majority of Eng depts across the country have never heard of Kim, that's THEIR loss, and OUR gain that programs like Buffalo exist where a brilliant, interesting poet like her can be appreciated. But actually, I think that although many Eng depts are not exactly well-versed in experimental poetics, this does not mean they are opposed to same if same happens to teach in the dept, or applies for an open position. I currently teach at a business school, for god's sake, and I am sure not a single person in my rather large dept has ever read Creeley, much less Kim, and yet they hired me, with my photocopies of poems in weird journals. Because, let's face it, there is more to teaching than personal poetry aesthetics. And there's more to the hiring process, too. Nonetheless, I live in hopes that one day I will be teaching at a school with colleagues like Susan Howe, Bernstein, Creeley, and Kim. What a dream. All gung-ho about poetry, Arielle --- Kevin Killian wrote: > I agree with Master Kazim Ali on this one! Myung Mi > Kim is an > interesting poet, and a great teacher, and she's > very sharp, funny, > natural, the students at Buffalo will warm to her > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:29:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: books MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The following books by Bill Berkson are now available from Small Press Distribution, www.spdbooks.org. SERENADE (POEMS 1976-1989) cover and drawings by Joe Brainard Zoland Books, 2000 * FUGUE STATE cover by Yvonne Jacquette Zoland Books, 2001 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:52:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was referring to the passage quoted in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he is not familar with and may be great. I am curious to find out who will defend the quality of the following sentence as writing: "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, avulse and engender acts of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct quote and "permeations" and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that attract"? I am stumped about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp creature. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:03:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim (thanks to the dictionary) In-Reply-To: <1b8.46dfc68.2a82c675@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII avulse--To tear off forcibly; rip away. [ab-, away + vellere, to pull] On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was referring to the passage quoted > in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he is not familar with and > may be great. > > I am curious to find out who will defend the quality of the following > sentence as writing: > "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, > avulse and engender acts > > of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct quote and "permeations" > and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that attract"? I am stumped > about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp creature. > > Murat > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:11:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: INTERCEPT: A release party (in SF) for Interlope, issue #8! FREE! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Interlopers:

I would like to invite you to INTERCEPT, an evening celebrating the release of Interlope magazine’s issue #8. For this special issue, guest editor Eileen Tabios gathered an accomplished array of contributors for this project, whose collective writings provide a window on contemporary practices by Filipino/a American writers.

Six local contributors Catalina Cariaga, Jean Gier, Barbara Pulmano Reyes, Tony Robles, Eileen Tabios, and Annabelle Udo will give readings of their work at the party. Additionally, Eileen Tabios' “Poem Tree” piece will be performed. A reception featuring a celebratory cake, bibingkas (Filipino coconut desserts), and wine will follow the performances. The premiere issue as well as all back issues of Interlope magazine will be available for purchase.

August 23, 2002
8pm
Locus 1640 Post
1640 Post Street (between Webster and Laguna)
San Francisco, CA

THIS EVENT IS FREE! Please forward to all interested parties. All are welcome!

INTERCEPT is pleased to be supported by a grant from the Potrero Nuevo Fund Prize, a program administered through New Langton Arts.

Thanks also to the Alliance of Emerging Creative Artists (AECA) for their community outreach of this project. 

For additional information, please visit the website at www.interlope.org or call Summi Kaipa at 415.864.6740.
========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:32:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: jobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed What's actually happening in this discussion of Myung Mi Kim is the same dopey negativity we hear about most things. Why begrudge her a job at a great program? Because of one phrase in a newspaper interview? And it's OK to be completely ignorant of her work, but mouth off about her anyway? Enough from the peanut gallery and the sour grapes society. Your bitterness is ridiculous: just don't sign up for her courses. Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:32:15 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: more permeations that attract MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am the perpetual foreigner at the door, I was right all along. of the demand to specify the purpose of (my) talk (what is it good for?), the beginning seemed right. the beginning was where the swamp water seemed so sweet. Myung Mi Kim told attendees at a recent poetry conference, "these caves in which we live are determined prose." flight off hand while how to evoke a poetics that does not capitulate to terms sanctioned and policed by the prevailing seems moody, today. dominant discourses invested in "the point of the tractor". it was the rainy season, after all. caves were dank and uncomfortable, and we had to talk. It is not the certitude of truth content or billowing breeze, as we ready to plant early crops, but it's permeations that attract, spillage and doctrine in equal order. we are treated to avulse and engender acts of speaking, or piling. (This) talk, if in relation to the task of writing, cannot proceed by argument; it proceeds by enactment, the something made and the process of something being made, and the cousin of the something made walking around dazed, telling the filing system of roses so wet and caves so dank, that this impossible rainy season must be suffered while cornered language. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:38:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: jobs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit absolutely ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: jobs > What's actually happening in this discussion of Myung Mi Kim is the same > dopey negativity we hear about most things. Why begrudge her a job at a > great program? Because of one phrase in a newspaper interview? And it's OK > to be completely ignorant of her work, but mouth off about her anyway? > Enough from the peanut gallery and the sour grapes society. Your bitterness > is ridiculous: just don't sign up for her courses. > > Jim Behrle > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:42:11 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: jobs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for this Jim, and for posting some of Kim's poems. She was doubtless hired for her poetry, not her press clippings. A couple questions: how many Asian American (woman) writers are on this list? How many Asian American writers teach in programs like SUNY-Buffalo's? I mean, if we're talking power here (professional, poetic), let's just say that almost of it still resides elsewhere than in the Asian American woman writer. aloha, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:32 AM Subject: jobs > What's actually happening in this discussion of Myung Mi Kim is the same > dopey negativity we hear about most things. Why begrudge her a job at a > great program? Because of one phrase in a newspaper interview? And it's OK > to be completely ignorant of her work, but mouth off about her anyway? > Enough from the peanut gallery and the sour grapes society. Your bitterness > is ridiculous: just don't sign up for her courses. > > Jim Behrle > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:46:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: filter foibles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm getting interested in which POETICS messages end up in my Outlook Junk Mail box. Here's the latest: INTERCEPT: A release party (in SF) for Interlope, issue #8! FREE! I guess the lesson is: if you don't make em pay, it's junk! --Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.sunmoon.com/lit_lives2/kim.html This is wonderfully easy to read. I like it. It breathes / can sing to me. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:45:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim (thanks to the dictionary) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 2. The sudden movement of soil from one property to another as a result of a flood or a shift in the course of a boundary stream. ...which might be another connotation. Perhaps she's saying that content, as it's being encountered, moves through the interstitial fluid between truth and not-truth; and that those movements attract responses and rip apart our notions of truth, shifting our own idealogies creating a need to speak out to make sense of it. Or, more simply (?): Ambiguity Rips. --Tracy On 7/8/02 at 3.03p, Steven Shoemaker (shoemak@FAS.HARVARD.EDU) said: >avulse--To tear off forcibly; rip away. [ab-, away + vellere, to pull] > > >On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > >> I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was referring to the passage quoted >> in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he is not familar with and >> may be great. >> >> I am curious to find out who will defend the quality of the following >> sentence as writing: >> "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, >> avulse and engender acts >> >> of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct quote and "permeations" >> and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that attract"? I am stumped >> about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp creature. >> >> Murat >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:16:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'd be interested in more responses to her work and why it works. I think this is an interesting direction rather than the sourgrapes approach to POETICS and jockeying for place. "Avulse" is a great word, in my book, somewhat akin to "Poasis" Open words like this - that bring more to the body and soul than what's on the page - seem to be one of the things poetry could be about? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim > I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was referring to the passage quoted > in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he is not familar with and > may be great. > > I am curious to find out who will defend the quality of the following > sentence as writing: > "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, > avulse and engender acts > > of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct quote and "permeations" > and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that attract"? I am stumped > about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp creature. > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <1b8.46dfc68.2a82c675@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:52 PM -0400 8/7/02, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: >I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was referring to the passage quoted >in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he is not familar with and >may be great. > >I am curious to find out who will defend the quality of the following >sentence as writing: >"It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, >avulse and engender acts > >of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct quote and "permeations" >and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that attract"? I am stumped >about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp creature. > >Murat permeations: instances in which something is permeated by something else avulse: a neologism suggesting revulsion or a turning away. my problem w/ the above is the "it's." it could be a misprint for "its," or it could be an "it is" like the one that started the sentence. however, even if it is a misprint, that is probably the reporter's or copy-editor's doing and not Prof. Kim's. -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: a note Comments: To: eng-grad@english.umass.edu, rmorris@hampshire.edu, mdhoover@earthlink.net, fholland@english.umass.edu, mvalwa@juno.com, jaugur@simons-rock.edu, seamus42@operamail.com, fradubio@earthlink.net, wcooper@sover.net, fido@crocker.com, avarnon@mtdata.com, jkgrinwis@hotmail.com, beeber@admin.umass.edu, nicole@nemec.com, lagrogan@crocker.com, corwin.ericson@rcn.com, eporto@acad.umass.edu, devlac@earthlink.com, mkl@auburnsem.org, tracyclare@aol.com, raintaxi@bitstream.net, linda_pierce@nmhschool.org, vnt200@nyu.edu, jforjames@aol.com, sajohnson@amherst.edu, anneh@english.umass.edu, jaimeekuperman@hotmail.com, rnrowe@hotmail.com, jdymond@english.umass.edu, jnacca@peoplepc.com, molly-dorozenski@excite.com, mzapruder@versepress.org, snape@english.umass.edu, odysseyhf@aol.com, mrsjoyboy@hotmail.com, asklar@gis.net, rncasper@earthlink.net, janke@poetsmirkproductions.com, tamsen@rcn.com, efstokes@colby.edu, chawkey@pratt.edu, leftish@juno.com, ramonaf@english.umass.edu, drroderick@hotmail.com, haner@som.umass.edu, mawhite@hcc.mass.edu, twestmoreland@rcn.com, richardsonnyc@hotmail.com, jmtietjen@aol.com, lcbeskin@rcn.com, cscomer@yahoo.com, flutteringmudflap@yahoo.com, katej12@yahoo.com, mynameiskennethmiller@yahoo.com, rjwod@yahoo.com, Eric Abbott , ashley , Eric Mathew Baus , third bed <3rdbed@3rdbed.com>, Jim Behrle , jillian brady , lisa brodsky , canwehaveourballback , macgregor card , Geert L Dhondt , timothy donnelly , ravi durbeej , editor , anon editors , Peter Gizzi , melissa goodman , josh gordon , nate hill , jubilat , "Dawn L. Martin" , James Meetze , nick moudry , travis nichols , Kerry O'Keefe , ethan paquin , Chase Park , Erica Pinto , Rita Rich , michael robins , becky rosen , jeffrey salane , list serve , P Sugar , Penny Sugar , mike teig , the styles mag , j tranter , sara veglahn , dara wier , andrew zawacki MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I apologize if this message seems meaningless to you; you're receiving it because for some reason your email is in my address book... all, my hardrive broke...I lost much...if you have anything I've sent you please email me a copy. Thank you, Noah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:32:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim thread In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed from ASHES OF AMERICAN FLAGS ... I wonder why we listen to poets when nobody gives a fuck how hot and sorrowful this machine begs for luck all my lies are always wishes ... from Wilco's YANKEE HOTEL FOXTROT lyrics by Jeff Tweedy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:24:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: jobs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I mean, if we're talking power here (professional, poetic), let's just say that almost of it still resides elsewhere than in the Asian American woman writer. aloha, Susan< Neither does it reside in white middle-aged working-class English poets from Birmingham, Susan. I think a focus on 'power' in terms of poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an art that flies above, I never became engaged with this art for its social status side-effects, it is, quite 'literally', a labour of love. I like the association of professional and poetic - yer wot? An art that pays next to nothing has a professional side? I think one of the serious problems of contemporary English language poetry is the confusion of poetry and academe, that is not to despise the academic, but there seems to be a tangle somewhere. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan M. Schultz" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:42 PM Subject: Re: jobs Thanks for this Jim, and for posting some of Kim's poems. She was doubtless hired for her poetry, not her press clippings. A couple questions: how many Asian American (woman) writers are on this list? How many Asian American writers teach in programs like SUNY-Buffalo's? I mean, if we're talking power here (professional, poetic), let's just say that almost of it still resides elsewhere than in the Asian American woman writer. aloha, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:32 AM Subject: jobs > What's actually happening in this discussion of Myung Mi Kim is the same > dopey negativity we hear about most things. Why begrudge her a job at a > great program? Because of one phrase in a newspaper interview? And it's OK > to be completely ignorant of her work, but mouth off about her anyway? > Enough from the peanut gallery and the sour grapes society. Your bitterness > is ridiculous: just don't sign up for her courses. > > Jim Behrle > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:43:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 192 character essay "the abacus" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 192 character essay "the abacus" 1oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 2oooooooo 1oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 2 1ooooooooooo 2ooo 3 1oooooooo 3o 1ooooo 3oo 1oo (remainder) 3ooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo File: wwoooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 0: 1: oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-oooooooo2: 3: oooooooo-ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 00: boo 01: coo 02: foo 03: goo 04: loo 05: moo 06: Ofo 07: oho 08: Oto 09: too 10: woo 11: zoo ooooooooooo oooooooo-oooooo-ooooooooooooo oo Ao 16: 32: bo 17: no 33: ow 18: o 34: ox 19: od 35: Oz do 20: oe 36: po Fo 21: of 37: Ro 22: 38: so go 23: Og 39: to 24: oh 40: ho 25: 41: wo io 26: Ok 42: jo 27: om 43: yo 12: ko 28: on 44: zo 13: lo 29: 45: 14: 30: 15: mo 31: os 2-portion - 1 => 1-portion + 1, HN = | N where > 0. Begin H1 X H2 Y. To reach Y: H3 0 (i.e. non-existent) Y H4 * at which point oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo maya &a; &b; &c; &d; &e; < & &lb maya-prayer-extensions the measurement hole, nearly, bead might move, in placework, placed, place, among our conscious, within, withal, perplexity, that we may comprehend, mindwork, furrows garden, work beadwork, softly already abacus onon _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:02:35 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David, hi, I'm lured from lurking because I have to disagree with you here. I have a kind of potted theory (experientially based) that it's exactly because there is so little to go around so many poets that issues of power become foregrounded so intensely in a scene of poetic literati. And that scene (in western countries) is like a microcosm of the rest of the place - so it follows that non-white women may be involved in struggling against dominant notions & behavioural power. So I agree with Susan Schultz here. You wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an art that flies above, I never became engaged with this art for its social status side-effects, it is, quite 'literally', a labour of love." All the best, Pam ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:13:06 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: plus.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi again, Plus - I don't believe that art transcends life. Writing poetry's probably easier than or probably preferable to,say, looking after a sick child (just an example).. Cheerio from Pam ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:12:29 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pam I think I'd agree with your theory in some respects, but my point is that the foci of prejudice are multiple and various, generalities of statement do not fit, it depends upon the social angle of wherever it is, there is a standing joke from Northern Ireland ( I know a lot of Ulster people) wherein a Sikh goes into a bar in Belfast, someone goes up to him and says'What are you?' He replies 'I'm a Sikh'. 'Ah, but' it goes, 'are you a Protestant Sikh or a Catholic?'. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:02 AM Subject: power David, hi, I'm lured from lurking because I have to disagree with you here. I have a kind of potted theory (experientially based) that it's exactly because there is so little to go around so many poets that issues of power become foregrounded so intensely in a scene of poetic literati. And that scene (in western countries) is like a microcosm of the rest of the place - so it follows that non-white women may be involved in struggling against dominant notions & behavioural power. So I agree with Susan Schultz here. You wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an art that flies above, I never became engaged with this art for its social status side-effects, it is, quite 'literally', a labour of love." All the best, Pam ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:37:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Re: power In-Reply-To: <20020808010235.76755.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "the smaller the pie, the sharper the knife" on 8/7/02 9:02 PM, Pam Brown at p.brown@YAHOO.COM wrote: > David, hi, > I'm lured from lurking because I have to disagree with > you here. I have a kind of potted theory > (experientially based) that it's exactly because there > is so little to go around so many poets that issues of > power become foregrounded so intensely in a scene of > poetic literati. > And that scene (in western countries) is like a > microcosm of the rest of the place - so it follows > that non-white women may be involved in struggling > against dominant notions & behavioural power. > So I agree with Susan Schultz here. > You wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of > poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all > levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an > art that flies above, I never became engaged with > this art for its social status side-effects, it is, > quite 'literally', a labour of love." > > All the best, > Pam > > > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To > - Get the best out of your PC! > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:03:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Clinefelter Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <1b8.46dfc68.2a82c675@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In the immortal words of my dad- "diagram that sentence for me" --- Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was > referring to the passage quoted > in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he > is not familar with and > may be great. > > I am curious to find out who will defend the quality > of the following > sentence as writing: > "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's > permeations that attract, > avulse and engender acts > > of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct > quote and "permeations" > and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that > attract"? I am stumped > about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp > creature. > > Murat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:54:52 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK David--let me put it this way, avoiding generalities: Even given that: --there is no such thing as power in poetry --there is no connection in the United States between power and race --it's a haphazard fluke that there are so few poets doing what Myung Mi Kim is doing and getting recognized for it (Cha and Lew come to mind as other Korean-American poets who combined innovative strategies with Korean and Asian American culture) I would still maintain that it's a good thing she got this job, which has no association to power--or, as some on this list might content--to poetry. I simply wish her well in the snow. aloha, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "david.bircumshaw" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: power > Hi Pam > > I think I'd agree with your theory in some respects, but my point is that > the foci of prejudice are multiple and various, generalities of statement do > not fit, it depends upon the social angle of wherever it is, there is a > standing joke from Northern Ireland ( I know a lot of Ulster people) wherein > a Sikh goes into a bar in Belfast, someone goes up to him and says'What are > you?' He replies 'I'm a Sikh'. 'Ah, but' it goes, 'are you a Protestant Sikh > or a Catholic?'. > > > Best > > Dave > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam Brown" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:02 AM > Subject: power > > > David, hi, > I'm lured from lurking because I have to disagree with > you here. I have a kind of potted theory > (experientially based) that it's exactly because there > is so little to go around so many poets that issues of > power become foregrounded so intensely in a scene of > poetic literati. > And that scene (in western countries) is like a > microcosm of the rest of the place - so it follows > that non-white women may be involved in struggling > against dominant notions & behavioural power. > So I agree with Susan Schultz here. > You wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of > poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all > levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an > art that flies above, I never became engaged with > this art for its social status side-effects, it is, > quite 'literally', a labour of love." > > All the best, > Pam > > > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To > - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:45:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Re: jobs In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I appreciate Jim Behrle's straight-forward approach here. In addition, I think it's inaccurate to say that "prestigious," or "mainstream" academia is filled with folks waving the flag of innovative poetries. In fact, many English departments are sparsely populated with people studying poetry at all--let alone that of the "innovative" variety. And the Midwestern gal in me chafes at the idea that people on the coasts are gettin' it (poetry that is) while "middle America" is not. It all depends who has landed (and is teaching and writing) where (often due to economic necessity) and what their interests are. Good night, Kathy Lou ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kathy Lou Schultz http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org > From: Jim Behrle > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:32:20 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: jobs > > What's actually happening in this discussion of Myung Mi Kim is the same > dopey negativity we hear about most things. Why begrudge her a job at a > great program? Because of one phrase in a newspaper interview? And it's OK > to be completely ignorant of her work, but mouth off about her anyway? > Enough from the peanut gallery and the sour grapes society. Your bitterness > is ridiculous: just don't sign up for her courses. > > Jim Behrle > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:09:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kwsherwood@AOL.COM Subject: Objectivist Audio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It happens I'll be teaching a class on Zukofsky, Niedecker, Reznikoff, Oppen, and Bunting this fall. Can anyone suggest some spoken word recordings (commerical, web, bootleg, et al) that might be available. I have a few worn tapes shared by friends in the past, but I'd be especially pleased if anyone could direct me to a source for Niedecker, Reznikoff, or Oppen. Please send any suggestions through the back channel (sherwood_k@utpb.edu). Thanks __________________________________ Kenneth Sherwood Assistant Professor of English University of Texas of the Permian Basin 4901 E. University Boulevard Odessa, TX 79762 (915) 552-2294 sherwood_k@utpb.edu __________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Objectivist Audio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heya Ken: what's the Permian Basin? sounds like a bioregion. mIEKAL Kwsherwood@AOL.COM wrote: > > > University of Texas of the Permian Basin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:41:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <02a701c23e79$44c4ac60$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reading the excerpt at: http://www.sunmoon.com/lit_lives2/kim.html ...my response would be that like Derek R, I like it, too. It works for me because it has a momentum to it that seems to come from its dance from being just a list of fancy nouns with their adjectives, to being prose that carries forward, to being an occassional subversion to my desire for simple meaning. I especially like the 2nd to last stanza because of its feel of openness and what seems to be a quiet joy hidden "until it flowers". And the last bit about starlings and duration, because starling is at once a bird and a pile of rocks used for support. And that it's in the starling, the balance between flight and solidity, that we can know a bit more of the "knowledge of the universe". --T On 7/8/02 at 8.16p, Thomas Bell (trbell@COMCAST.NET) said: >I'd be interested in more responses to her work and why it works. I think >this is an interesting direction rather than the sourgrapes approach to >POETICS and jockeying for place. "Avulse" is a great word, in my book, >somewhat akin to "Poasis" Open words like this - that bring more to the >body and soul than what's on the page - seem to be one of the things poetry >could be about? > >tom bell > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:52 PM >Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim > > >> I think one is missing Bob's argument. He was referring to the passage >quoted >> in the post and not to the poetry, which he said he is not familar with >and >> may be great. >> >> I am curious to find out who will defend the quality of the following >> sentence as writing: >> "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that >attract, >> avulse and engender acts >> >> of speaking." I am assuming that this is a correct quote and "permeations" >> and "avulse" are not misprints. "Permutations that attract"? I am stumped >> about "avulse." To me it sounds like a swamp creature. >> >> Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:56:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 401 character classic: all of julu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 401 character classic: all of julu @a qw( blue stars plough soul connected burning_creek hoe pick winnowing basket hermit ladle bucket earth be something beyond your mind it would seem therefore fly away with me because never too late thoughtlessly falling to rather meadows coming fast telling names cancelling out bodies @verb charred fire bones ash visitations sickness health heavenly clicks downloads uploads defrags @prep above outside high_above @noun i found myself living beneath the mountain in my hut fragments replacing totality eternally forever @nnn favoring internal separations foreclosing everywhere now here violated chop($str=);if ($str eq no ) {print \nshow wetwear...\n sleep(10); else \ni love feelings, ...\n ;} driven by defrag relentlessly towards you... 6== scan-disk concluded for $pid mine, sweet am yours! 2==$g;technologies list them... one one, each on line alone, typing control-d when done.\n 3==$be;come me, $name, beautiful wetware!\n {$diff=$pid $$; makes read meditation $diff times! 5 < Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Kenning 13 available for order ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just put together the first big batch of Kenning 13's - it's going out to subscribers & contributors in a day or so. This note is to encourage you to place a direct mailorder, enabling me to afford to send them to subscribers / contributors! - $6.00 postage paid, not bad? If you're the more patient sort, you can wait a week or two and order it from Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org). Kenning 13 - the "send-off" (i.e., the last newsletter issue) features: New writing by: Susan Schultz, Terrence Chiusano, Kit Robinson, Laura Elrick, Christophe Marchand-Kiss (trans. Jonathan Skinner), Eugene Ostashevsky, Jesse Seldess, Elizabeth Robinson, Kaia Sand, Jules Boykoff, Rodrigo Toscano, Nathaniel Tarn, Rob Holloway, Dolores Dorantes (trans. Jen Hofer, w/ originals en face), Tenney Nathanson, and Brian Strang (on anarchism / poetics). A column on "critical paranoia" with contributions by: Robert Creeley, Andrew Levy, Craig Dworkin, Hayley Brooks, Sean Kelley, Chris Stroffolino, Graham Foust, Sean Cotter, Meredith Quartermain, Peter Quartermain, Brian Kim Stefans, Elizabeth Treadwell, Tom Orange, Thom Donovan. Also, an appendix to the column by David Larsen. Reviews: Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Truong Tran, Gregg Biglieri. Insert: A cut-out critically paranoid mantic thingy by Thom Donovan (on Zukofsky et al). Covers: Designed and printed by LRSN. Please make checks payable to Patrick F. Durgin, NOT "Kenning." Send away to the address below. Be sure and check the website (www.durationpress.com/kenning) for subscription deals and back-issues, particularly the recent audio edition on double-CD. And thanks! K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 00:27:51 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Objectivist audio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Niedecker recording is available online at the Niedecker author = page: epc.buffalo.edu/authors/niedecker K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:28:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: power In-Reply-To: <000501c23e7e$96ab3800$6501a8c0@Mac> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I simply wish her well in the snow. > yo watch it hawaii girl, don't be dissing on buffalo now else i'm going to have words with you! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:34:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Two Questions about music In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his "prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful widow of eighteen springs" i'm looking for more of the latter--stranger and more bizzarre but still musical, not necessarily "noisy"--since there are endless cage albums (it seems), i thought i'd ask for advice and recommendations here... the second part is: i'm interested in finding out more about Alice Coltrane...does anyone have listening suggestions there? or particularly where in CA her ashram is, how I might contact those folks...i was told her later recordings are not commercial available except through the ashram... ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:35:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Two Questions about music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4' 33" is always a great listen. & the patchen piece,"The city wears a slouch hat" Mister Kazim Ali wrote: > As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began > listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his > "prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not > revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and > bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful > widow of eighteen springs" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 00:52:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: new features @ durationpress.com webhosting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit some new features are now available with certain web-hosting packages @ durationpress.com... Auto-installation (accessible via the user's control panel) of the following scripts: phpBB2 (forum) phpnuke postnuke phpwebsite more information at http://www.durationpress.org/hosting.htm Jerrold Shiroma, director duration press www.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 03:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Poem 4 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Since this seem to be becoming a book, I will stop boring the list: New day. Next day. Call from the corporate office of a creditor demanding payment for a bill or sending to to court. Total is higher than that given by XpressChex two days ago when I send them a check by mail. Who's making the cash here? Where is it? Call Dun One more debit Tick, Tick-tock, or Tic douloureaux Call to doctor's business manager about arranging a support group meeting for IBS patients. "What's' IBS?" "Irritable bowel syndrome (with explanation)" "Getting old?" "Actually it's a syndrome for young women." "Sounds like I might have it?" "Up to 20% of the population might have minor cases." "I might have it? I'll ask the doc." IBS "Cacophonic" Clockwork oriole Orchestra on NPR 9/11 IBS gloomanddoom (nod to Bill Harley, "All Things Considered", 8/7/02) Latest news on The West Nile Virus to FLASH on TV TO Night - ticks or birds or anthrax or vile Nile or antiretroviral or five of the big five companies tick on the ticker in London. Amber Alert Day today. $180, 000 per year. "Fear and fraud will not undermine the economy"? Another complaint today Made to the city about Unmown lawn Moan Days back up north would have been twenty with new mowers banging down the door? $1.79 TV dinner with 16 cents in tax included. Philip Whalen passed away last week Passed away doesn't fit Quite. His passage through life Was not gentle But aware. We are Too aware And recall, Recall, It all In our guts. Recall. Recall. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:17:17 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, I'm lured from lurking too. Regarding your comments below: > Dave wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of > poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all > levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an > art that flies above, I never became engaged with > this art for its social status side-effects, it is, > quite 'literally', a labour of love." > I don't think the fact that poetry's a 'labour of love' allows room for transcendence of those politics, or that this is even a possibility. Since when are love and power unrelated? There are also plenty of things to fight for beside social status, some of them worth fighting for. Maybe that's when art can really fly above. I really do think Jim Behrle is onto something important recently when he advocates a less negative approach. Apart from anything else, this would help with the 'so little to go around' problem. More hope. It's how you play the game that matters? Hope that makes some sense! Cheers, Cassie ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 03:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the character essays - explanation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the character essays The 1000 Character Classic (or 'essay,' depending on the translation) is a Chinese work from the 6th century - Ellen Zweig and I are translating it. It was used in the imperial exams; the first 80 characters formed the basis of keno; and numerous classical texts are numbered by the charac- ters. The 1000 characters never repeat; the text was one of the bases for learning the language. The beginning is mythological, more or less; there are also numerous (Confucian) maxims. Texts (such as Genesis) dealing with originary moments often stress the role of language; creation is catalyzed by the Word, Speech, Breath, and so on. In the reduction of Genesis I worked on, each word in the first half is used only once; the rest are eliminated. So the first half becomes a construct of language itself, its political economy, eliminating surplus. In the second half, the end of Genesis determines the fullness of the language, and the beginning of the second half contains the elimina- tions. A text beginning with God's speech descends to, ascends out of, the proper name, the only remainder of languages abstract skein. Genesis had to be modified, eliminating the future punctuations, capital letters, chapter and verse numbers; the result is transformed into enun- ciation, pure speech exhausting itself in the first half, and descending out of evanescence, God's silence, in the second. Other texts were also used to arrive at the condensation of the Julu perl scripts, the theoretical work I did on the abacus (which is an inverse, a spread of quantity across a skein), and bones drawn from the recent modi- fied markov chain pieces. Two different programs were used; one involved a number of unix commands, including awk, sed, tr, nl, etc., that transformed a text into a list of duplications which could then be manually removed. The second was a perl script; I asked Florian Cramer's help on this. I then modified the script to a small extent. The perl script is a coherent filter creating an array and comparing the elements, retaining only the first of any that were equivalent. Language can only be spoken once, or it can be spoken forever; there is no intermediary here, and once and forever are not binaries. Speaking once creates it in the form of rigid designators, description taut in its relation to the substrate of the real. Speaking forever glides forever; it is only with the greatest difficult that meaning is retained. Speaking once is the fullness and repleteness of meaning, but meaning grounded in unique enunciation, the fullness of the earth. Speaking forever is meaning emptied, swollen and diffused in air, untethered, transfigured. Language is never one nor the other, but creation is, and forever carries death, just as once is choratic birth. the character essays The 1000 Character Classic (or 'essay,' depending on translation) is a Chinese work from 6th century - Ellen Zweig and I are translating it. It was used in imperial exams; first 80 characters formed basis of keno; numerous classical texts numbered by charac- ters. never repeat; text one bases for learning language. beginning mythological, more or less; there also (Confucian) maxims. Texts (such as Genesis) dealing with originary moments often stress role language; creation catalyzed Word, Speech, Breath, so on. In reduction Genesis worked on, each word half only once; rest eliminated. So becomes construct language itself, its political economy, eliminating surplus. second half, end determines fullness language, contains elimina- tions. A God's speech descends to, ascends out of, proper name, remainder languages abstract skein. had to be modified, future punctuations, capital letters, chapter verse numbers; result transformed into enun- ciation, pure exhausting itself descending evanescence, silence, second. Other were arrive at condensation Julu perl scripts, theoretical did abacus (which an inverse, spread quantity across skein), bones drawn recent modi- fied markov chain pieces. Two different programs used; involved number unix commands, including awk, sed, tr, nl, etc., that list duplications which could then manually removed. script; asked Florian Cramer's help this. modified script small extent. coherent filter creating array comparing elements, retaining any equivalent. Language can spoken once, it forever; no intermediary here, once forever not binaries. Speaking creates form rigid designators, description taut relation substrate real. glides greatest difficult meaning retained. repleteness meaning, but grounded unique enunciation, earth. emptied, swollen diffused air, untethered, transfigured. nor other, is, carries death, just choratic birth. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 07:52:37 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [Arras Media]" Subject: Arras::just when you thought the internet had died MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit and left you king Arras has some updates: 1. the entire run of 8 issues of The Impercipient in .pdf format 2. "little reviews" page see here: 1. the impercipient http://www.arras.net/impercipient.htm with an introduction by editor/publisher Jennifer Moxley: Pillow Talk: A Short History of a Small Magazine http://www.arras.net/impercipient_intro_paragraphs.htm The Impercipient 1 Time to relive the nineties with an electronic reprint of the first issue of Jennifer Moxley's zine The Impercipient. Writing by: Lisa Jarnot, Brian Schorn, Sianne Ngai, Scott Bentley, Douglas Rothschild, Helena Bennett, Bill Luoma, Lee Ann Brown, Ben Friedlander, John Mignault and Moxley herself. Originally pubbed Feb 92. 64 pp., 260kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_1.pdf The Impercipient 2 The second (much shorter) issue of the legendary "silent pillow of a generation," including new old writing by: Gale Nelson, Elizabeth Willis, Sianne Ngai, Karen Davies, Lisa Jarnot, Peter Gizzi, Brian Schorn, Gabriel Alfieri, and the editor, Jennifer Moxley. Published originally August 92. 44 pp., 148kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_2.pdf The Impercipient 3 Issue 3, "designed for poets," contains writing by Lee Ann Brown, Gabriel Alfieri, Gale Nelson, Ray Jordan, Lisa Jarnot, Brian Barry, Jennifer Moxley, Douglas Rothschild, Robert Kocik, and Beth Anderson. Unflowered April 1993. 56 pp., 272kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_3.pdf The Impercipient 4 Some new names here: Chris Stroffolino, Judith Goldman, Rod Smith, Damon Krukowski, Mark McMorris, J.L. Jacobs, Patrick Phillips, Kirstin Prevallet and Scott Bentley. Featuring really groovy cover art by Bill Luoma. Debuted in December 93. 52 pp., 224kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_4.pdf The Impercipient 5 The "pink issue" premiered in May 1994, and featured Jessica Lowenthal, Peter Gizzi, Jeff Hull, Lisa Jarnot, Rob Fitterman, Lee Ann Brown, Magdalena Zurawski, Jennifer Moxley, Thad Ziolkowski, Joe Ross, and Kevin Davies. 58 pp., 256kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_5.pdf The Impercipient 6 The silent pillow continues to roar with it's 6th issue of "poems for utopians," containing work by: Tanya Erzen, Jennifer Blackledge, Sally Silvers, Beth Anderson, Juliana Spahr, Mark Ducharme, Gale Nelson, Helena Bennett and yours truly. 50 pp., 201kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_6.pdf The Impercipient 7 Did I say issue 5 was the "pink issue"? I meant this one, containing writing by: Dan Bouchard, Damon Krukowski, Rod Smith, Bill Luoma, Steve Carll, Kevin Davies, William Keckler, Joe Ross, Douglas Rothschild, Avery E.D. Burns and Connie Deanovich. This pillow issued June 1995. 80 pp., 333kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_7.pdf The Impercipient 8 So ends our little travel back in time, the concluding issue containing work by: Camille Guthrie, Lisa Jarnot, Judith Goldman, Sianne Ngai, Jay Dillemuth, Brian Schorn, Bob Harrison and yours truly. Come back next fin-de-siecle for more exciting poetic adventures! 44 pp., 148kb http://www.arras.net/pdfs/imp_8.pdf 2. little reviews http://www.arras.net/little_reviews.htm Introduction by bks http://www.arras.net/the_franks/_intro.htm Armantrout, Rae / Pretext Ashbery, John / As Umbrellas Follow Rain Berg, Stephen / Halo and Porno Diva Numero Uno Bernstein, Charles / My Way Bernstein, Charles / Republics of Reality Bernstein, Charles / With Strings Berrigan, Edmund / Disarming Matter Bök, Christian / Eunoia Brown, Lee Ann / Polyverse Brownstein, Michael / World On Fire Caddel, Quartermain, eds. / Other: British and Irish Poetry Since 1970 Caples, Garrett / The Garrett Caples Reader Caws, Mary Ann / Manifesto Champion, Miles / Three Bell Zero Clark, Jeff / The Little Door Slides Back Cole, Norma / Spinoza In Her Youth Coleman, Wanda / Bathwater Wine Coolidge, Clark / Alien Tatters Coolidge, Clark / On The Nameways: Volume One Coover, Robert / The Grand Hotels (of Joseph Cornell) Davies, Kevin / Comp. Deniz, Gerardo / Poemas/Poems Doris, Stacy / Paramour Farrell, Dan / Last Instance Fitterman, Rob / Metropolis 1-15 Gladman, Renee / Juice Godfrey, John / Push the Mule Goldman, Judith / Vocoder Harryman, Carla / Gardener of Stars Hejinian, Lyn / A Border Comedy Hejinian, Lyn / Happily Ignatow, David / Living Is What I Wanted: Last Poems Joris, Pierre/ Poasis Kim, Myung Mi / Dura Kusai, Joel / poetics@ Lehman, David / Evening Sun Levy, Andrew / Paper Head Last Lyrics Luoma, Bill / Works & Days Mackey, Nathaniel / Atet A.D. Mccaffery, Steve / Seven Pages Missing, Volume One Mcgrath, Thomas / Letter To An Imaginary Friend Mullen, Harryette / Sleeping With the Dictionary Ngai, Sianne / Criteria Notley, Alice / Disobedience Osherow, Jacqueline / Dead Men's Praise Osman, Jena / The Character Prynne, J.H. / Poems Rankine, Claudia / End of the Alphabet Rankine, Claudia / Plot Raworth, Tom / Tottering State Robinson, Kit / Democracy Boulevard Rodefer, Stephen / Mon Canard Rothenberg, Joris, eds. / Poems from the Millennium, Vol. 2 Shaw, Nancy and Strang, Catriana / Busted Smith, Rod / Protective Immediacy Spahr, Juliana / Fuck You-Aloha-I Love You Tarkos, Christophe / Ma Langue Est Poetique: Selected Work Torres, Edward / The All-Union Day of the Shock Worker Toscano, Rodrigo / Partisans Tu, Hung / Verisimilitude Villa, Jose Garcia / Anchored Angel Volkman, Karen / Spar Wershler-Henry, Darren / Tapeworm Foundry Wheeler, Susan / Smokes Wheeler, Susan / Source Codes Yau, John Borrowed / Love Songs ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Two Questions about music In-Reply-To: <20020808043441.20107.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whatever you miss, don't miss *Roaratorio: An Irish Circus on Finnegans Wake*. It's on a single Wergo CD or a double Mode CD, in the latter case along with "Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake." Another CD I'd suggest would be *Singing Through* with Joan LaBarbara. That's on New Albion. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began { listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his { "prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not { revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and { bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful { widow of eighteen springs" { { i'm looking for more of the latter--stranger and more { bizzarre but still musical, not necessarily { "noisy"--since there are endless cage albums (it { seems), i thought i'd ask for advice and { recommendations here... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:47:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Two Questions about music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/02 12:34:54 AM, kaajumiah@YAHOO.COM writes: << As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his "prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful widow of eighteen springs" i'm looking for more of the latter--stranger and more bizzarre but still musical, not necessarily "noisy"--since there are endless cage albums (it seems), i thought i'd ask for advice and recommendations here... >> Try "Atlas Eclipticalis For Three Flutes," one of my favorites, and available on CD from Hat Hut Recordings Ltd. (Switzerland). You can schedule your meals between notes. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Two Questions about music In-Reply-To: <20020808043441.20107.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began >listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his >"prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not >revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and >bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful >widow of eighteen springs" > >i'm looking for more of the latter--stranger and more >bizzarre but still musical, not necessarily >"noisy"--since there are endless cage albums (it >seems), i thought i'd ask for advice and >recommendations here... In addition to the couple of things others have already mentioned (& let me reinforce the recommendation for Joan La Barbara's Singing Through John Cage, which includes a wide range of pieces drawn from Cage's long career), try the String Quartet (he has several works composed for this instrumentation, but there's only one that's called a String Quartet); Cheap Imitation (a piano solo structurally based on a Satie piece, written for a Cunningham dance when it turned out they couldn't get the rights for the Satie piece Cage had selected). An album called Imaginary Landscapes documents a series from the 1940s into the 1950s that started out with works for prepared piano & percussion and ended up with a piece for a dozen radios. Past that, it may get into a question of your tolerance for "stranger and more bizarre but still musical." I'd suggest trying some of the later works that just have numbers for titles (these are the number of performers in a given work), perhaps choosing among them based how much you're interested in the particular instruments heard in a particular piece. There's a good recording of the String Quartet by the Arditti Quartet that's paired with a later work in this series that might serve as a good start on the number pieces. The recordings of various flavors of Europera are collages of vocal and instrumental lines from a variety of operas in the European tradition with some other odder elements. >the second part is: i'm interested in finding out more >about Alice Coltrane...does anyone have listening >suggestions there? or particularly where in CA her >ashram is, how I might contact those folks...i was >told her later recordings are not commercial available >except through the ashram... There was a long article about her in a recent issue of the British music magazine, the Wire, which made it seem as if much of her older work was in the process of being re-issued in the coming year. There may have been a contact address for recordins, I don't remember. If you have trouble finding this through a library, let me know & I'll dig try to it out of storage. Bests, Herb -- Herb Levy Mappings: new music in RealAudio P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm mappings@antennaradio.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:50:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Two Questions about music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i recently picked up a recording of a cage piece called "thirteen" -- one of his last i think if not the last, for a small chamber ensemble, that i think, like many of the so-called "number pieces" from his late period, will be right up yr alley. the alice coltrane CD catalog has been getting fleshed out over the past few years. a number of impulse titles from the early 1970s (ptah the el daoud, journey in satchidananda, universal consciousness) are in print. also a label called sepia tone has recently reissued some warner brothers recordings from the mid-1970s (transcendence, transfiguration). tho if yr looking for a single CD sampler, the "priceless jazz" budget-priced collection that GRP did has a decent selection from the impulse years... bests, tom orange p.s. i also give morton feldman's last work, "for samuel beckett," a big big thumbs-up! ------------------ From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Two Questions about music As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his "prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful widow of eighteen springs" i'm looking for more of the latter--stranger and more bizzarre but still musical, not necessarily "noisy"--since there are endless cage albums (it seems), i thought i'd ask for advice and recommendations here... the second part is: i'm interested in finding out more about Alice Coltrane...does anyone have listening suggestions there? or particularly where in CA her ashram is, how I might contact those folks...i was told her later recordings are not commercial available except through the ashram... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:14:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim the Acadominant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit think I'm part of that huge middle literally/figuratively sm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:15:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abominate acadominate I yam cried Spam sm. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:48:50 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Rising Shotgun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Alan Sondheim, I hate advertising too but don't shoot me I'm just the piano plyer... Announcing "Don't Forsake Kentucky" The debut album by RISING SHOTGUN out now on Norse Records... Ten songs of longing, loss, and the luck of the draw-- (written by Brett Ralph----also a fine poet I might add hence its relevance and I could say cutting edge ACADOMINANCE a la BUFFO!) produced by Steve "Rapeman" Albini CD $15.00 post-paid Checks payable to Brett Ralph Rising Shotgun P.O. Box 4423 Louisville, KY. 40204 Charles Bernstein wrote: > I suppose we all have our preferences on what we would like to see on > this list, but just as valuable as the posts of the type I think ought > to be posted is the fact of what is posted. In any case, this list has > always encouraged the posting of announcements for publications, web > sites, and readings and there is nothing more useful than those posts > nor anything more fundamental to the founding mission of the list. > Call them advertisement if you like, but if the product in question is > poetry edited or written by a member of the list, or readings > organized or given by list members, then I want more of that not less. > One of the great advantages of the listserv format is that it provides > an inexpensive way for participants to exchange information about > publications and performances. This is not a secondary function, a > form of questionable "self-promotion", but the very heart of what this > list is for. > > I also always appreciate lists of recommended reading (books or on > web). > > Charles Bernstein > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:30:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Fun With Babel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Black Diaphragm=20 That light/write superficial black diaphragm of. The corporeo member=20 and the extension and the labbro have balanced buttocks of the sweat=20 of flight of drunkard maschii the agreement of the fire that of swindle=20 kisses=20 and that it adopts. The box it of loading of tying of the neck long is with=20 experience=20 and the part of the brush. The new launch of corola and the moon the clean=20 place=20 innaffia zampilli towards the outside the causes of Encere.... Lights.=20 Resb=E1lela approximately the description begins them of time=20 of comparison, with the song of tordo.=20 ----------------------------- Black Membrane These light/membrane black surface Write. Corporeo=20 the member and the prolongation and that labbro=20 compensated for the hinterteile sweat of the flight=20 drunkard maschii the convention of the fire which=20 embraces of Swindle and which accept it. The box=20 is a long time it it store to bind approach experiment=20 and the part of the brush. The new introduction of product=20 corola and the moon that outside places clean=20 innaffia zampilli in direction the causes of Encere....=20 Lights. Resb=E1lela description begins it approximately=20 the time of the comparison, with the Song tordo.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:35:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: More Fun With Babel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I ask myself, why we hear poets, if nobody gives one baise, how hot and douleureux this machine for the luck asks, which is always all my lies desires ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:03:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Resentments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A great disappointment about innovative poetries and its poets is the silly resentments some express toward other innovative poets. We ought to celebrate poets like Myung Mi Kim getting a new job. Doesn't that open doors to more of us rather than shut them? Or when a new book is announced--doesn't that present us with more opportunities to publish, and not less? Other poets' triumphs ought to be met with gladness. This is a tough enough gig, with little power or love to show. Would it kill some on this list to be kind and open to other's work? I'd like to hear from the silent majority, who may or may not be turned off by the tone of some posters. I'm very interested when these messages we send to each other make me glad I became a poet. I've decided to be more vigilant when they don't. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:31:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Resentments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Jim--Having been on the list for a very long time, I seem to have lost the stamina most list-fracases require, but this is just to say that I basically agree with you. The ever-present bitterness is a great pity & has kept me on the verge of unsubscribing for oh, i dunno, at least ten years i guess. But the list is also full of wonderful things, like the terrific music recommendations coming thru right now & tho these sometimes come thru more infrequently than one wld like i guess they keep m= e going. I guess i am a little uncomfortable with the suggestion below that some sor= t of "vigilance" is called for to make us all post things that make each other "glad." Skepticism and critique certainly have their place, and the skepticism here is sometimes useful in the face of the often insidious affirmations of the larger culture. But that said, there's certainly room for much more warmth and generosity than we habitually see here. So I'm glad you, and others, have spoken up on the matter, especially since you're quite possibly right that there's a "silent majority" who wishes things were different. Steve On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Jim Behrle wrote: > A great disappointment about innovative poetries and its poets is the sil= ly > resentments some express toward other innovative poets. We ought to > celebrate poets like Myung Mi Kim getting a new job. Doesn't that open do= ors > to more of us rather than shut them? Or when a new book is > announced--doesn't that present us with more opportunities to publish, an= d > not less? Other poets' triumphs ought to be met with gladness. This is a > tough enough gig, with little power or love to show. Would it kill some = on > this list to be kind and open to other's work? I'd like to hear from the > silent majority, who may or may not be turned off by the tone of some > posters. I'm very interested when these messages we send to each other m= ake > me glad I became a poet. I've decided to be more vigilant when they don'= t. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 12:05:15 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim--- Hey I appreciate your fellowship I just want to make a point in support of I think Murat though to me the issue was analogous to this: remember circa '94 when Alanis Morisette came out and a whole industry (or "sub-industry") was calling it "alternative" etc.... (not to single out A.M., for one could easily say that band Live, etc. etc and all the commercial alternative stations that sprung up with billboards that said "Honk If You Hate 'Freebird'" etc....)--- Well, I actually liked Alanis Morisette--but I saw it as good POP--- this is not a qualitative judgment, or if it might be, it's coming from somebody who thinks that it's at least as hard to create a GOOD pop record as it is to say create "Giant Steps" by Sir. John.... So, for me, I was not willing to dismiss BG's original "acadominant" remark as mere resentment on his part, even though I wouldn't have come up with that phrase myself. I may very well be called acadominat someday by someone too....it's not necessarily a swear word, etc.... I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but it's not spoken out of resentment... c Jim Behrle wrote: > A great disappointment about innovative poetries and its poets is the silly > resentments some express toward other innovative poets. We ought to > celebrate poets like Myung Mi Kim getting a new job. Doesn't that open doors > to more of us rather than shut them? Or when a new book is > announced--doesn't that present us with more opportunities to publish, and > not less? Other poets' triumphs ought to be met with gladness. This is a > tough enough gig, with little power or love to show. Would it kill some on > this list to be kind and open to other's work? I'd like to hear from the > silent majority, who may or may not be turned off by the tone of some > posters. I'm very interested when these messages we send to each other make > me glad I became a poet. I've decided to be more vigilant when they don't. > > --Jim Behrle > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:07:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/02 2:09:04 PM, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >A great disappointment about innovative poetries and its poets is the silly >resentments some express toward other innovative poets. Jim, Where does the recent exchange have anything to do with resentment? On my part I was reacting to what I thought was an atrocious piece of prose (many others don't seem to think so, and that's fine). I don't think this list is a cheer leading circle. Respect for the use of language and honesty in one's reactions to, I think, is essential to a poet. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:24:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: NICK LOLORDO Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <200208080403.WAA340574@lamar.ColoState.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re this whole debate: it seems to me that the languges of "innovative poetry" and that of "theory" (the latter refers to the until recently 'acadominent' version of criticism that derives mostly from structuralism/ poststructuralism) are in a complex relation to one another. A piece of prose written by a speaker of the former language may resemble a specimen of the latter--but that dosen't mean that the sort of English department that specializes in the latter discourse will have any recognition of the former. Indeed, I'd contend that it's precisely the departments that are generally considered most prestigous in which an anti-theoretical, craft-based paradigm of poetry exists. My fellow grad students (Harvard, mid-90s) were all conversant in theory, but none of them had any interest in contemporary poetry, except those who wrote it--and those who wrote it were for the most part the least theoretically inclined.....All of which is just to begin to say that the relation between contemporary poetry and the academy is complicated as hell and facile attacks on a tiny specimen of language (as Jim B. has pointed out) don't seem very useful to me... ***** Nick LoLordo Visiting Assistant Professor Department of English Colorado St. University (970) 491-6848 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:11:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Spiral Bridge Subject: Your Spiral Bridge Horoscope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LEO: July 22-- August 23 August 18, 2002 is an auspicious day to join your energies with other = larger-than-life personalities..=20 The influence of Leo on your astrological configuration can only = indicate a fabulous party filled with charismatic freaks, enigmatic = beauty, gorgeous egos and decadent delirium. It is a favorable time to = enjoy a mind-blowing open mic. poetry reading and musical extravaganza = at the first of many celebrations at our new home in Montclair at the = Bloomfield Ave. Stage and Caf=E9. Witness the Re-Birth of The Naked Readings and join us from 6pm to = Midnight as we celebrate the births of all our Leo friends. =20 Come and help Spiral Bridge awaken this space of Love, music, art, magic = and Beauty. =20 Wear your halo and your skimpies, 'cause baby, it's gonna be hot! =20 www.SpiralBridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:46:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Resentments Comments: To: cstroffo@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <3D52C0EA.FEFCA00A@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i want to chime in here. while i don't think everything should always be nicy-nice, i like it when people argue about ideas rather than the goodness, badness, alternativeness or straightness of particular poets or even types of poetry. for instance, the recent discussions about poetry and/or poetics (nick piombino, murat n-n et al) was exemplary, i think, as was the earlier thread about "content." while the list is certainly a viable form of social life, i like it when that social life organizes itself around intellectual matters rather than who's in/who's out. there is a relationship between ideas and who's in or out, of course, but the conversation is more interesting when cast in terms of the former rather than the latter. At 12:05 PM -0700 8/8/02, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: >Jim--- > >Hey I appreciate your fellowship > >I just want to make a point in support of I think Murat though > >to me the issue was analogous to this: > >remember circa '94 when Alanis Morisette came out >and a whole industry (or "sub-industry") was calling it "alternative" etc..= =2E. >(not to single out A.M., for one could easily say that band Live, etc. etc >and all the commercial alternative stations that sprung up with billboards >that said "Honk If You Hate 'Freebird'" etc....)--- > >Well, I actually liked Alanis Morisette--but I saw it as good POP--- >this is not a qualitative judgment, or if it might be, it's coming from >somebody who thinks that it's at least as hard to create a GOOD pop record >as it is to say create "Giant Steps" by Sir. John.... > >So, for me, I was not willing to dismiss BG's original "acadominant" remark >as mere resentment on his part, even though I wouldn't have come up with >that phrase myself. I may very well be called acadominat someday by someone >too....it's not necessarily a swear word, etc.... > >I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but it's not spoken out of >resentment... > >c > > > > >Jim Behrle wrote: > >> A great disappointment about innovative poetries and its poets is the sil= ly >> resentments some express toward other innovative poets. We ought to >> celebrate poets like Myung Mi Kim getting a new job. Doesn't that open do= ors >> to more of us rather than shut them? Or when a new book is >> announced--doesn't that present us with more opportunities to publish, an= d >> not less? Other poets' triumphs ought to be met with gladness. This is a >> tough enough gig, with little power or love to show. Would it kill some = on >> this list to be kind and open to other's work? I'd like to hear from the >> silent majority, who may or may not be turned off by the tone of some >> posters. I'm very interested when these messages we send to each other m= ake >> me glad I became a poet. I've decided to be more vigilant when they don'= t. >> >> --Jim Behrle >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Join the world=92s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >> http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:05:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Basinski Subject: Bukowski-Lifshin-Locklin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bukowski-Lifshin-Locklin Panels forming around these poets for the: Popular Culture Association Conference 2003 - annual meeting to be held April 16-19, 2003, at the New Orleans Marriott. Call for Papers Deadline: September 10, 2002. Also seeking paper abstracts on populist American poets or other poets who have influenced American popular culture and/ or poetry, past or present. Letters and one-page abstracts for this kind of panel should be sent to Michael Basinski, The Poetry/Rare Books Collection, 420 Capen Hall, SUNY at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260 or to Basinski@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:02:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Resentments In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:46 PM -0600 8/8/02, Maria Damon wrote: ... the recent discussions about poetry >and/or poetics (nick piombino, murat n-n et al) was exemplary, i think, as >was the earlier thread about "content." ... sorry abt the lack of agreement in the above sentence. i rarely proofread my posts for grammatical correctness and so sometimes, when a sentence starts out going in in one idrection and ends up differently, there are traces of the previously intended construction. here, for inst. i was going to say "discussions about poetry/poetics and "content" --- but i forgot so ended up w/ a singular verb (was) instead of were. scrutiny of kim's prose has made me self-conscious. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:09:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/02 3:36:20 PM, nlolordo@LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU writes: >facile attacks on a tiny >specimen of language Poems start with tiny specimens of language, tiny specimen by tiny specimen... There is nothing facile about it. To adapt Pound to this whole issue: prose should be wriiten at least as well as well as poetry, by a poet. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:32:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/8/02 3:36:20 PM, nlolordo@LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU writes: << the relation between contemporary poetry and the academy is complicated as hell and facile attacks on a tiny specimen of language (as Jim B. has pointed out) don't seem very useful to me... >> Bob, you can come out from under the bed now. Geez, one little mistake . . . Reminds me of my bus trip to New Orleans to attend acadedomic, uh, adacodomino, uh, graduate school. Elvis died on my way down there. At the time I thought, "I'm gonna take more trips and see who else I can get." I've got your back, Bob, though you surely don't this fool's help. You go, girl. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:50:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: Resentments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm not interested for cheerleading. I'm asking for less malice. It's cheap and lazy to be mean. We're poets, we ought to work harder. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:35:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Resentments (Abhorrences) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think Jim Behrle shockingly underestimates what difficult work it is to be effectively, wittily mean. (cf Hazlitt, "On the Pleasures of Hating" and much of Ed Dorn's later work. Chamfort was good at it; it takes style.) As for poetry and power, there's "An Unusual Accounting Treatment" from *Hello La Jolla*: We live in what is by definition A slave society And this would include most of the spread We've always lived down the roads And have received or taken what we got. Some of us have had a close practice With the master But whatever was gained there would be only clearer Certainly nothing more And it will definitely be seen By Kennicott's auditors As of no consequence to the main facts. But I would like to point to what I see as interesting in the latest conversation. A previous post contained the following: "the languges of 'innovative poetry' and that of 'theory' (. . . version of criticism that derives mostly from structuralism/ poststructuralism) are in a complex relation to one another. A piece of prose written by a speaker of the former language may resemble a specimen of the latter" This rather shocking admission is, in fact, what Bob Grumman was expressing weariness about in one of his early posts: "I'm just tired of people who seem to need to subvert the language (in opposition to some conspiracy that uses language to subjugate us) instead of writing poems" (parentheses added for clarity) Joe Safdie ______________________ It's cheap and lazy to be mean. We're poets, we ought to work harder. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:39:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: power Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Position breeds power, and power is for wimps. That goes not only for Myung Mi Kim and her various critics and detractors, but for all forms of poetic canon / fodder making. It's a manager/managee scheme. Although position might be said to be "for everyone", wimps will always vie for hierarchy over generative confusion; the more the mental gyrations through which each of their personal situations can be made to "top out" as one among many "correct" variations of the overall "wimp" theme, the better chance they have at joining the delusion of such as participatory Group Effort. One might usefully be suspicious of anyone desiring of position within an institutional framework; the more jealous, the better, as far making conflict in this arena Self Evident. Ladies and gentlemen, start your paper shredders . . . / Cat _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:53:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: plus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pam I'd definitely agree with you that looking after a sick child is more onerous than writing poetry. What I mean is that writing preserves the moments, we forget most of our lives, but poetry can carry identity across the gaps of time, I can look back at poems of mine and recall as if it 'was yesterday' the act of making, although maybe all the circumstances surrounding have slipped into the abyss. I also 'forget' poems I have written and can be extremely surprised at re-meeting them. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:13 AM Subject: plus.. Hi again, Plus - I don't believe that art transcends life. Writing poetry's probably easier than or probably preferable to,say, looking after a sick child (just an example).. Cheerio from Pam ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:47:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Many of us post poems to the list; others attempt, in their posts, to advance some sort of poetic, and still others limit themselves to commenting on those. But what would a listserv post that was *in itself* an attempt at art look like? "a means of publication" say the guidelines (or used to so say) . . . but publication of what? I'm looking at a rectangular white box surrounded by a light blue border with several icons -- an envelope, some sort of storage receptacle, as person with a check mark next to him or her -- on top of that. As I type, the white box gradually fills with black letters . . . Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:01:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Re: Two Questions about music In-Reply-To: <20020808043441.20107.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll leave the Cage question to others, as you've already found the prepared piano pieces that I know. (Other than to suggest, maybe, looking for recordings featuring Margaret Leng Tan (?), who is deep in the Cage piano repertoire). As for the Alice Coltrane stuff, I'll clip the info from the article that appeared on her in the May issue of the Wire: "_A Monastic Trio_, _Ptah, the El Daaoud_, _Journey in Satchidananda_ and a compilation, _Astral Meditations_, are available on Impulse!. _Universal Consciousness_ is issued for the first time on CD on Universal Jazz/LPR on 6 May. _Cosmic Music_, _World Galaxy_, and _Infinity_ can be found on Impulse! Japan. _Eternity_. _Rada-Krsna Nama Sankirtana_, _Transcendence_, and _Transfiguration_ have just been released on Warner Bros. Masters. _Huntington Ashram Monastery_ and _Lord of Lords_ have never appeared on CD. The John Coltrane Foundation can be contacted at 21777 Ventura Blvd., Suite 253, Woodland Hills, CA, 91364, USA, tel 001 818 226 9991, www.johncoltrane.com." The foundation website doesn't seem to have much more on Alice's music, so a call or letter might be the way to go if you're looking for one of the unreleased discs. Best of luck. Taylor On Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 09:34 PM, Mister Kazim Ali wrote: > As I mentioned a couple of months ago here, I began > listening to John Cage music--I've heard a lot of his > "prepared piano" music which sounds strange, but not > revolutionary, and a couple of truly wonderful and > bizzarre pieces like "ryoanji" and "the wonderful > widow of eighteen springs" > > i'm looking for more of the latter--stranger and more > bizzarre but still musical, not necessarily > "noisy"--since there are endless cage albums (it > seems), i thought i'd ask for advice and > recommendations here... > > the second part is: i'm interested in finding out more > about Alice Coltrane...does anyone have listening > suggestions there? or particularly where in CA her > ashram is, how I might contact those folks...i was > told her later recordings are not commercial available > except through the ashram... > > ===== > "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting > > behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" > > --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Re: Two Questions about music (correction) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, that's actually the _April_ issue of the Wire, in case you're planning on tracking it down. T On Thursday, August 8, 2002, at 04:01 PM, Taylor Brady wrote: > I'll leave the Cage question to others, as you've already found the > prepared piano pieces that I know. (Other than to suggest, maybe, > looking for recordings featuring Margaret Leng Tan (?), who is deep in > the Cage piano repertoire). > > As for the Alice Coltrane stuff, I'll clip the info from the article > that appeared on her in the May issue of the Wire: > > "_A Monastic Trio_, _Ptah, the El Daaoud_, _Journey in Satchidananda_ > and a compilation, _Astral Meditations_, are available on Impulse!. > _Universal Consciousness_ is issued for the first time on CD on > Universal Jazz/LPR on 6 May. _Cosmic Music_, _World Galaxy_, and > _Infinity_ can be found on Impulse! Japan. _Eternity_. _Rada-Krsna Nama > Sankirtana_, _Transcendence_, and _Transfiguration_ have just been > released on Warner Bros. Masters. _Huntington Ashram Monastery_ and > _Lord of Lords_ have never appeared on CD. The John Coltrane Foundation > can be contacted at 21777 Ventura Blvd., Suite 253, Woodland Hills, CA, > 91364, USA, tel 001 818 226 9991, www.johncoltrane.com." > > The foundation website doesn't seem to have much more on Alice's music, > so a call or letter might be the way to go if you're looking for one of > the unreleased discs. Best of luck. > > Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:33:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: More Fun With Babel In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ian, your efforts with Babel are brilliant, but still come nowhere near the simplicity of what I got once James Brown had been converted to German and back: It ain't no counteracting force Papa has got a brand-new suitcase. Gwyn, the humble channel of this discovery ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:56:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: More Fun With Babel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gwyn: That's hilarious! (It makes me want to run the rest of the James Brown catalog through the program...) from one Gwyn(ne) to another, Gwynne Garfinkle hometown.aol.com/gwynnega/gwynne.html >> Ian, your efforts with Babel are brilliant, but still come nowhere near the simplicity of what I got once James Brown had been converted to German and back: It ain't no counteracting force Papa has got a brand-new suitcase. Gwyn, the humble channel of this discovery << ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:23:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a couple of posts rejected by the list yesterday because I wasn't aware of the (new?) policy against anyone's posting more than twice a day to it. So, here's a gathering of thoughts with, I hope, an essay of sorts on the value of negativity to follow. A. Yes, nice that SUNY, Buffalo, is hiring a Chinese-American woman--but what has it done for Samoan-American women?! B. Is it possible for someone to criticize another person on this list and not be accused of sour grapes? And when will such accusers start trying to refute the critic if they disagree with him instead of impugning motives, which are IRRELEVANT. C. In just what way did I "begrudge (Kim) a job at a great program?" What I did was criticize her use of acadominant bs in an interview. And it IS okay to be completely ignorant of her work and mouth off about her if it concerns something she has said that one is not ignorant of. Obviously, I was mouthing off at Kim's acadominant bs more than at her, and at her only for seeming to see herself as anti-establishment. D. Which reminds me that I've come up with a good comeback to those arguing that langpo, and prose like Kim's, are not acadominant because most English departments teach older stuff. Most physics departments teach Newtonian physics with a little relativity and quantum theory thrown in. They aren't more committed to post-Einsteinian physics than English departments are to post-Iowa poetry; does that mean post-Einsteinian physics is not acadominant in American physics? E. Kim's poem seemed okay to me, although standardly jump-cut sensitive. Can someone tell me if it would be consider language poetry? In my taxonomy, it would be straight jump-cut poetry out of Pound/Eliot/Ashbery. Which is NOT to criticize it. F. I have NOTHING against that which is acadominant. I only dislike the way those in the acadominant poetry school of our time, language poetry, pretend to be anti-establishment. Oh, and I AM envious of the money, awards and prestige some of those in that school garner. I believe there are first-rate poets in all schools of poetry, but--except for those in MY main school, the pluraesthetic poetry school--the language poets are doing by far the most interesting, if not always the best, work. And people in both the named schools are using devices from each other's schools--using them well. G. Does Kim's appointment open doors? Well, it shut one to all who competed with her for entrance through it--but no doubt it will help open other doors to certain other poets. Billy Collins's appointment as Poet Laureate has and will, too. It seems to me reasonable to celebrate the advancements of those who do your kind of poetry and complain about the advancements of those who do poetry you consider inferior. Not that my criticism of Kim's prose had to do with any of that. Which brings me to: The Value of Negativity The idea that one should not be negative about other poets' work is moronic. First of all, it is impossible not to be negative about other poets' work. That's because you can't buy all poets' work, you can't praise all poets' work or even pay attention to all poets' work--and, friends, there is NOTHING more negative than ignoring a poet's work. But it is extremely valuable to state publically what you don't like about another poet's work, and why. It helps lower one's derangement to let off steam, for one thing. More important, it helps the critic and poet think about good/bad in poetry. It exposes the poet to reality, to what at least one other person really thinks about his work. That has to be helpful if he's not a jerk. It will make him aware of flaws he can correct. It will make him aware of qualities of his work he does not consider flaws but may seem flaws to others, which will allow him to present his non-flaws more effectively, or find ways to help others understand them as non-flaws better. A good back&forth can generate publicity, too, which might win the poet and/or the critic a few new readers. It can also help readers see through bad poetry and demand better poetry. It will invigorate the poetry scene as a whole, too, by unvanillaing it. This all holds, needless to say, for negativity directed at criticism, or short prose texts quoted by reporters. I thought I was going to say more, but that'll do it for today. Oh, except to say that I'm for praise, too. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:40:18 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Cassie yup, love and power do sleep close together, but I was thinking of 'power' or 'status' in that 'managerial' sense Catherine Lasko so rightly identified in her post on this list. Negativity is a problem, but bland acquiescence doesn't help either. I know these are not exactly profound thoughts, I'm more preoccupied with where on earth I'm going to find another job again, and the prospect of a flight to Aus ( I've never done that long a haul aloft before) Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "casslewis@excite.com" To: Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:17 AM Subject: Re: power Hi Dave, I'm lured from lurking too. Regarding your comments below: > Dave wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of > poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all > levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an > art that flies above, I never became engaged with > this art for its social status side-effects, it is, > quite 'literally', a labour of love." > I don't think the fact that poetry's a 'labour of love' allows room for transcendence of those politics, or that this is even a possibility. Since when are love and power unrelated? There are also plenty of things to fight for beside social status, some of them worth fighting for. Maybe that's when art can really fly above. I really do think Jim Behrle is onto something important recently when he advocates a less negative approach. Apart from anything else, this would help with the 'so little to go around' problem. More hope. It's how you play the game that matters? Hope that makes some sense! Cheers, Cassie ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:13:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: send a poem/ Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kim's Under Flag was a book that really moved me... as a way to tie these last few threads together, here is a poem--written in response to her poem "Demarcation"--which appeared in 580 Split #4: urge to call begin with the phrase "it's light outside" with the window, the reshaping of water to map the shoreline between finger & figure to say there is so much loss in the current language anchor-ripped coral or coral-ripped hull adjacent, resolute, an idea preceding vocabulary the inclination of a knee to bend or body to decay one would question sleep as one would step an image, angled--inverted in a spoon the subject, suspect of syntax one tests the wind with a finger as a ship settles between the shoreline & the lines on a map the terms, twinned to coax out meaning the leakage of water through slats of wood one must begin with the current, the word "cohere" the child who says "the window shows it's time to get up" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:36:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: beating both ends of the dead acadominant cow against the middle with a burning bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >I think one is missing Bob's argument< Yes, I is -- had been missing it for some time; heartened to see it again -- > with due apologies to our e-hosts, the thought that there is a department of English somewhere in this land that is "cowed" by SUNY Buffalo is just too mirthfully much for this weakened heart to bear another poll suggestion -- contact the grads of the SUNY Buffalo program from the past ten years and ask them if the hiring committees they met at the acadominant MLA "seminar" appeared cowed by their credentials -- > No, the ref. to "bush" was not intended as a pun -- BUT this gives me the opportunity to repeat an anecdote -- W's daddy, pestered by pursuing journalists about the fate of his nominee for director of the CIA, spun about and unleashed a tirade againt the Senate committee reponsible for the advise & consent, ending (I am not making this up) with the exasperated remark that "it's like a quayle running around looking for a bush to hide under" Love to all -- Remember, it was the late James Joyce who wrote: "Nielsen, rare admirable" -- not me! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:42:52 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Blue Lock Is MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blue Lock Is Hat a lit his often black ask a fetus. Hick beau she tuck a fat pita shocking you fond SWAT. I is fell you tang hickups o fond lush. LA tips dreck end a life tosses muck in a perfect attack if tock. Lung say "ech" I teed on a big essay check age a wife fuck o Tom new folk as a Beckett ass. With fucks go tock I seek you fans as the cock you full a flash speck O.D. city FEMA sock until you found and I freckle a bit. O fog I suck at it. Slate the hick out hot. She suffered, a kind she seated I whack a shoe polish at. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Bluck Otis hat feck a lit his ofen bluck ack a fetus. hick bo fody she tluck a fat leckumbos sise fita schockung u fond swati s fell u tang hickups o fond lush. latips sweck end alifud kotosses uck in a pa fecs etack fi tock. lufung saech i tond a bickosh, a shuf essat check age a wife fuck o tom nufick sa a becketass. wi fux cotock i secu fans sa het cock u ful a flash eck od citi fema sock un u fond an ifeckeladitung. o fog i nuck es at. sleta de hick ug hot she sufod, ackind she seteng i fack a shu tosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Bluck Ufus haf feckce a lifghs ofn bluckck afefs. hick bofdy she fluckghs aff leckmbs ssfifschockng ufnd swafs ckefllufng hickps ofnd lush. lafps sweckndlifd kofsses uckn a pafcs efck fifock. lufng saech ifnd a bckosh, a shufssaf checkge a wife fckofm nufck sa a bckefss. wifx cfockscufns sa hef cockufla flasheckd cfifmsockn ufnd anfeckldifng. ofgnucksaf. slefde hickghof she sufd, acknd she sefng ifck a shfosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Black Iris Her face a light in black iris. Her body the flight of limbs stretching and sweat rolling hips and lush. Lips swindled kisses in a pact of fire. Long touch and a brush, a shatter charge a wire from neck to a breast. Wax crescent to her corola flushed crimson and unfolding. Ignite. Slide higher she said, and the song of a thrush. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 270 character classic: elimination of cancer cancer.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 270 character classic: elimination of cancer cancer.txt on march 16, 2000 my mother died of cancer. from september 1999 until and death some this was in the diary i kept for trace incidence recent files cancers spread like pools artificial life across desperate thought spreads are you properly compiling your body is a hole mine; now will begin its journey arms god arraignments while subsides angels happy tue oct 5 22:22:54 edt truth enters lung hovers as if it were forever 22:14:54 abandoned by thins towards ready exculpation gone rejoiced singing home purity organs constituted 22:15:56 to adrenal weep full capacity against begging arrayed seeps returns burrows ahem 22:18:00 blacken sing play harps dwindles eyes return their waves testing other newer waters new metastases solitons shudder holding 22:19:30 claims an crying almost merry hems haws close apologetic laughter 22:20:26 icecancer tecancer mology she writes history web her sharp beak oldest extrapolatcancer ingtumor historiography software within fields philoscancer ophy psychologytumor jennifer postcancerpostcancermodernismstumor postcancerpostcancerstruccancer psychocancer logical traditionstumor recuperating irigaraytumor construct mathematicocancerscientific developmenttumor observes kleintumor penrosetumor marrtumor moravectumor others too nucancer precancer science euclid such s casetumor that does not overlook postcancer modern geographytumor concepts habitus small simple programs own jennicancer fer mouth filled unwieldy landscape bed .the sores turn soul bitcancer ter why defuge drops hints willing take up every pocancer bearing bright red rocancer sestumor tiny budding bouquets reminiscent alchemical institute making julu so sad mor he looks this! saidtumor uglicancer est cutest beginning because said there extrucancer sions back shows teeth through sizzle words pullcancer ing language commentedtumor didn t come here closeness scan came out negative meaning just lungs ad awaits coming asteroid eating away before _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:55:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: unique transmission MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII unique transmission 1000 character essay (help and partial translation Ellen Zweig) 168 oracle of the 26 gates, classic transform ~ making writing wearing clothing expel bequeath called carrying weapons cause world. they dead foundations thousand classic. terms utilized 494 surface; you tits, cunt, cock; rest no longer see through oiled looking-glass. can't look cunt because eyes only characters; arms wrap there political economy involved; excess characterizes our exchanges, flow omy, rather characterized fullness surplus; restraint channelling genesis essay: language 1 ii 192 "the abacus" 401 classic: all julu essays It was used in imperial exams; first 80 formed ters. The never repeat; text one bases for Character Classic (or 'essay,' depending on translating it. 270 elimination cancer cancer.txt 822 [net pornography] from text, Internet Text) translation) is a _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 02:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, Thanks for your thoughts, profound or not ... I've been thinking of these topics all day (in between trying to quit smoking!). Enjoy Australia, hopefully it won't be too wintry. Cheers, Cassie --- On Thu 08/08, david.bircumshaw wrote: From: david.bircumshaw [mailto: david.bircumshaw@NTLWORLD.COM] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:40:18 +0100 Subject: Re: power > Hi Cassie > > yup, love and power do sleep close together, but I was thinking of > 'power' > or 'status' in that 'managerial' sense Catherine Lasko so rightly > identified > in her post on this list. Negativity is a problem, but bland acquiescence > doesn't help either. > > I know these are not exactly profound thoughts, I'm more preoccupied with > where on earth I'm going to find another job again, and the prospect of a > flight to Aus ( I've never done that long a haul aloft before) > > Best > > Dave > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "casslewis@excite.com" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:17 AM > Subject: Re: power > > > Hi Dave, > > I'm lured from lurking too. Regarding your comments below: > > > Dave wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of > > poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all > > levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an > > art that flies above, I never became engaged with > > this art for its social status side-effects, it is, > > quite 'literally', a labour of love." > > > > I don't think the fact that poetry's a 'labour of love' allows room for > transcendence of those politics, or that this is even a possibility. > > Since when are love and power unrelated? > > There are also plenty of things to fight for beside social status, some > of > them worth fighting for. Maybe that's when art can really > fly above. > > I really do think Jim Behrle is onto something important recently when he > advocates a less negative approach. > > Apart from anything else, this would help with the 'so little to go > around' > problem. More hope. > > It's how you play the game that matters? > > Hope that makes some sense! > > Cheers, > > Cassie > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:36:02 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: plus In-Reply-To: <003d01c23f25$f96ff8c0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, I don't know about "onerous" David. Anyway - you describe poetry as having a function rather like taking snapshots - and that's an aspect of it. Kind of Wordsworthian isn't it ? As for me, I "look back" on many poems I wrote and either dimly or vividly recall but don't really know or feel like that poet any more. Not that I'd deny any of the poems' credibility - I guess I just like to move along in poetry writing & reading as I seem to move along as my life progresses (or, simply, continues). Here's to surprises. Pam --- "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > Hi Pam > > I'd definitely agree with you that looking after a > sick child is more > onerous than writing poetry. > > > What I mean is that writing preserves the moments, > we forget most of our > lives, but poetry can carry identity across the gaps > of time, I can look > back at poems of mine and recall as if it 'was > yesterday' the act of making, > although maybe all the circumstances surrounding > have slipped into the > abyss. > > I also 'forget' poems I have written and can be > extremely surprised at > re-meeting them. > > Best > > Dave > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam Brown" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:13 AM > Subject: plus.. > > > Hi again, > > Plus - I don't believe that art transcends life. > Writing poetry's probably easier than or probably > preferable to,say, looking after a sick child (just > an > example).. > > Cheerio from Pam > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To > - Get the best out of your PC! > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:48:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Query In-Reply-To: <5D90B152C32E2142B3DC0BD2B23C95DE0734F3@luxor.lwtc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" listservs to have their own aesthetic, in the sense of an internal logic that necessarily involves form --filling white space on screen w/ gray-black letters is what lonely people do to have fun, community, etc --what could be more aesthetic than that? At 3:47 PM -0700 8/8/02, Safdie Joseph wrote: >Many of us post poems to the list; others attempt, in their posts, to >advance some sort of poetic, and still others limit themselves to commenting >on those. But what would a listserv post that was *in itself* an attempt at >art look like? "a means of publication" say the guidelines (or used to so >say) . . . but publication of what? > >I'm looking at a rectangular white box surrounded by a light blue border >with several icons -- an envelope, some sort of storage receptacle, as >person with a check mark next to him or her -- on top of that. As I type, >the white box gradually fills with black letters . . . > >Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:44:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" of course that shd be "listservs *seem* to have..." At 6:48 PM -0600 8/8/02, Maria Damon wrote: >listservs to have their own aesthetic, in the sense of an internal logic >that necessarily involves form --filling white space on screen w/ >gray-black letters is what lonely people do to have fun, community, etc >--what could be more aesthetic than that? > >At 3:47 PM -0700 8/8/02, Safdie Joseph wrote: >>Many of us post poems to the list; others attempt, in their posts, to >>advance some sort of poetic, and still others limit themselves to commenting >>on those. But what would a listserv post that was *in itself* an attempt at >>art look like? "a means of publication" say the guidelines (or used to so >>say) . . . but publication of what? >> >>I'm looking at a rectangular white box surrounded by a light blue border >>with several icons -- an envelope, some sort of storage receptacle, as >>person with a check mark next to him or her -- on top of that. As I type, >>the white box gradually fills with black letters . . . >> >>Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:58:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: J Safdie Query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Joe S writes: But what would a listserv post that was *in itself* an attempt at art look like? ---- A. Gary Sullivan's posts. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:09:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: J Safdie Query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this question assumes this listserv isnt already a stellar example of collective creativity. I always learn most when projects are allowed to self-organize to flourish & decay on their own terms. if we think about entities such as sondheim, k johnson, gudding & henry, all controversial in some way cuz they knaw on people's aesthetic underpinnings, they shouldnt be reduced to the status of parasites on the organism. for me its always the endless mutability of this information broadcast which feeds me, & I say that having been on the list, active, lurking, digest for what seems like a LONG time. Perhaps this is all easy for me to say because I will always be an outsider in the "acadominant" behaviorfactory, & not invested in that particular mindset of the "art"... mIEKAL actually the thing that makes me nervous about this list most lately is the attention to grammatical & punctuational correctness. it's its ?o^o¿ > Joe S writes: > > But what would a listserv post that was *in itself* an attempt at art > look like? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:47:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: plus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit haha i used to put that in syllabi life is full of surprises so don't you be surprised when i surprise you re assignments reading/writing sm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:29:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: Resentments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Bob Grumman wrote: >B. Is it possible for someone to criticize another person on this list >and >not be accused of sour grapes? And when will such accusers start >trying >to refute the critic if they disagree with him instead of >impugning >motives, which are IRRELEVANT. Your grapes are sour, Bob. You admit as much later in this e-mail. Your motives are relevant. And I do refute you. Your attacks on Myung Mi Kim are really boring. You add nothing to the conversation here by defending them--you are simply being a jerk. I'm interested in your poems, but if it came down to it I'd take Myung Mi Kim's over yours. >F. I have NOTHING against that which is acadominant. I only dislike >the >way those in the acadominant poetry school of our time, language > >poetry,pretend to be anti-establishment. C'mon, Bob. They are certainly anti-establishment, it's laughable to suggest otherwise. Isn't the fun of being avant-garde to be avant-garde? Did you become a poet to become the most famous poet in the country? >Which brings me to: > The Value of Negativity >The idea that one should not be negative about other poets' work is > >moronic. You know what's moronic, Bob? You are not talking about her work. You are talking about a paragraph from a speech that's quoted in the newspaper. I'd be interested to see the whole thing. What I've actually written about on this list is the endless whining. Send something to this list that's captivating. Send a very interesting if negative review that's thoughtful and provocative. Why must I wade through your piss? I'm sorry if my postings this week sound preachy and dumb. I do think it's important to think about: why must our conversations with each other be so vile? --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:23:09 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think there is a common misconception that rigour and friendliness are mutually exlusive. They're not... Cheers, Cassie --- On Fri 08/09, Jim Behrle wrote: From: Jim Behrle [mailto: tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:29:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Resentments > Bob Grumman wrote: > > >B. Is it possible for someone to criticize another person on this list > >and > >not be accused of sour grapes? And when will such accusers start > >trying > >to refute the critic if they disagree with him instead of > >impugning > >motives, which are IRRELEVANT. > > Your grapes are sour, Bob. You admit as much later in this e-mail. Your > motives are relevant. And I do refute you. Your attacks on Myung Mi Kim > are really boring. You add nothing to the conversation here by defending > them--you are simply being a jerk. I'm interested in your poems, but if > it > came down to it I'd take Myung Mi Kim's over yours. > > >F. I have NOTHING against that which is acadominant. I only dislike > >the > >way those in the acadominant poetry school of our time, language > > >poetry,pretend to be anti-establishment. > > C'mon, Bob. They are certainly anti-establishment, it's laughable to > suggest otherwise. Isn't the fun of being avant-garde to be avant-garde? > Did you become a poet to become the most famous poet in the country? > > >Which brings me to: > > > The Value of Negativity > > >The idea that one should not be negative about other poets' work is > > >moronic. > > You know what's moronic, Bob? You are not talking about her work. You > are > talking about a paragraph from a speech that's quoted in the newspaper. > I'd > be interested to see the whole thing. What I've actually written about > on > this list is the endless whining. Send something to this list that's > captivating. Send a very interesting if negative review that's > thoughtful > and provocative. Why must I wade through your piss? > > I'm sorry if my postings this week sound preachy and dumb. I do think > it's > important to think about: why must our conversations with each other be > so > vile? > > --Jim Behrle > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:27:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not that it has anything to do with sour fruit, or anything, but bob also mistakenly called Kim Chinese... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Behrle" To: Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Resentments > Bob Grumman wrote: > > >B. Is it possible for someone to criticize another person on this list >and > >not be accused of sour grapes? And when will such accusers start >trying > >to refute the critic if they disagree with him instead of >impugning > >motives, which are IRRELEVANT. > > Your grapes are sour, Bob. You admit as much later in this e-mail. Your > motives are relevant. And I do refute you. Your attacks on Myung Mi Kim > are really boring. You add nothing to the conversation here by defending > them--you are simply being a jerk. I'm interested in your poems, but if it > came down to it I'd take Myung Mi Kim's over yours. > > >F. I have NOTHING against that which is acadominant. I only dislike >the > >way those in the acadominant poetry school of our time, language > > >poetry,pretend to be anti-establishment. > > C'mon, Bob. They are certainly anti-establishment, it's laughable to > suggest otherwise. Isn't the fun of being avant-garde to be avant-garde? > Did you become a poet to become the most famous poet in the country? > > >Which brings me to: > > > The Value of Negativity > > >The idea that one should not be negative about other poets' work is > > >moronic. > > You know what's moronic, Bob? You are not talking about her work. You are > talking about a paragraph from a speech that's quoted in the newspaper. I'd > be interested to see the whole thing. What I've actually written about on > this list is the endless whining. Send something to this list that's > captivating. Send a very interesting if negative review that's thoughtful > and provocative. Why must I wade through your piss? > > I'm sorry if my postings this week sound preachy and dumb. I do think it's > important to think about: why must our conversations with each other be so > vile? > > --Jim Behrle > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:34:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/9/2002 11:28:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerrold@DURATIONPRESS.COM writes: > > not that it has anything to do with sour fruit, or anything, but bob also > mistakenly called Kim Chinese... > > but it does have to do with rigour (friendly or not), hence the limited credibility I put on his other statements.... .....and, omigod, to confuse Korean with Chinese given the history.....well! Eileen, a Filipina(-American) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:14:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO Issue 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Folks, SHAMPOO Lucky Issue number 13 is now available for your bathtubs. Get your hairs on over to www.ShampooPoetry.com for sudsy new poems by Kemel Zaldivar, Jake Adam York, Eddie Watkins, Eileen Tabios, Heather Sweeney, Sandra Simonds, Soraya Shalforoosh, Larry Sawyer, Summer Rogers, Sean Reagan, Wanda Phipps, Marvyn Petrucci, Karen Neuberg, Sheila E. Murphy, rob mclennan, Michael Magee, Amy King, Halvard Johnson, Daniel Y. Harris, Christine Hamm, David Hadbawnik, David Goldstein, Olive Filbert, Raymond Farr, Antonio Facchino, kari edwards, Joshua Edwards, Katina Douveas, John Mercuri Dooley, TJ Desc, Christopher Davis, Del Ray Cross, Brian Dean Bollman, and Bob Ayers, along with raucous SHAMPOOart by David Larsen and his Crypt-tickler. This product is not tested on animals. Lather up, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry www.ShampooPoetry.com (if you'd prefer not to receive these notices, please let me know) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:22:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Nick & Murat, I'm too lazy right now to look up the reference, but I believe what Pound said is that poetry should be at least as well written as prose-- not the other way round, as Murat has it. I appreciate Murat's "specimen by specimen" analogy as an example of poetic process, but it doesn't persuade in this case. In part, this is because we're not making a poem here, but talking about whether it's fair to jump on a good poet over an awkward remark that was quoted (or misquoted) in a newspaper. The real question isn't the quality of this sentence of Kim's, but why it matters to anyone. Let's be honest-- if Kim hadn't gotten the job at Buffalo and the same passage had been posted to the list, I doubt that any of us would be talking about it. I agree with Kevin & Jim that it's a GOOD thing that an interesting poet got hired to teach in an interesting program. What on earth is wrong with that? As for "acadominant"-- let's look at ~this~ bit of language for a second. Dominant to WHOM? What real power is being wielded? Who really cares? If you don't like Kim's (or Bernstein's, or Howe's, or Creeley's) work, don't read it. Nobody's forcing you. Crankily putting in my two cents-- Mark DuCharme >From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:09:05 EDT > >In a message dated 8/8/02 3:36:20 PM, nlolordo@LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU writes: > > >facile attacks on a tiny > >specimen of language > >Poems start with tiny specimens of language, tiny specimen by tiny >specimen... There is nothing facile about it. >To adapt Pound to this whole issue: prose should be wriiten at least as >well >as well as poetry, by a poet. > >Murat <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: more permeations that attract MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT are these words? avulse, poasis, permeations are they prose or poetry? --------------*********_______________- elist publication. I've realized that posting to the list has some advantages over sending quips and poems and poetic staements to a place (or site) for publication. However, it does have disadvantages, probably the most obvious being that there is no editor here so what i send isn't censored for good or bad and in a sense I am what I post. -------+++++++++========= which brings us to topic #3. this is not directed at anyone in particular, but I would like to see more attention to positive and constructive posts. I'm capable of doing my own filtering of overpostings and negative attacks (by the way, one can set up filters to bury posts you don't want) but I'd welcome some pointers toward winnowing out the good stuff. I don't want to turn this into a 'popularity' contest, but I do find myself always reading Nick's posts and there have been several interesting thoughts from others in the past. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Poetic Ambition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm curious what people think about the role of ambition in innovative poetries. It seems to me to be a very harmful force. Can it have a positive side? Does it makes us work harder, to strive to be better poets? My ambition was simply to be a poet and be accepted by poets. Also to sleep with poets. Or is careerism that's the problem? What's the difference? I am wondering aloud, or, rather, quietly typing. I think fame and fortune prohibits poets from writing innovatively, and for the most part, writing well at all. How famous can poets really become? Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:30:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Shampoo and More Mind Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, I have some new stuff on this cool web journal Shampoo--details below. Check it out! Also, my own site Mind Honey has been updated--new stuff on Poetry Page, Press, Articles, and Books, etc. page. SHAMPOO Lucky Issue number 13 is now available for your bathtubs. Get your hairs on over to www.ShampooPoetry.com for sudsy new poems by Kemel Zaldivar, Jake Adam York, Eddie Watkins, Eileen Tabios, Heather Sweeney, Sandra Simonds, Soraya Shalforoosh, Larry Sawyer, Summer Rogers, Sean Reagan, Wanda Phipps, Marvyn Petrucci, Karen Neuberg, Sheila E. Murphy, rob mclennan, Michael Magee, Amy King, Halvard Johnson, Daniel Y. Harris, Christine Hamm, David Hadbawnik, David Goldstein, Olive Filbert, Raymond Farr, Antonio Facchino, kari edwards, Joshua Edwards, Katina Douveas, John Mercuri Dooley, TJ Desc, Christopher Davis, Del Ray Cross, Brian Dean Bollman, and Bob Ayers, along with raucous SHAMPOOart by David Larsen and his Crypt-tickler. This product is not tested on animals. Lather up, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry http://www.ShampooPoetry.com -- Wanda Phipps Hey, don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport (and if you have already try it again) poetry, music and more! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:56:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/9/02 3:29:00 PM, markducharme@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >I'm too lazy right now to look up the reference, but I believe what Pound >said is that poetry should be at least as well written as prose-- not the >other way round, as Murat has it. Hi Mark, I was reversing Pound's quote. Pound said that poetry should be as well written as prose, implying that a lot of the the English poetry of his time (Edwardian I suppose) was too vague, feely feely, pseudo poetic and deep. Therefore poetry should be wriiten as well as prose (as directly and cleanly, as in his imagist poetry). In Kim's passage I see a similar kind of vagueness, which many in the list may see as richness or innovation. Let's get back to the quote: "It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, avulse and engender acts of speaking. (This) talk, if in relation to the task of writing, cannot proceed by argument; it proceeds by enactment - the something made and the process of something being made." As far as I can understand, this passage is saying that it's not a "an argument" but an "enactment," "a process." In other words, it is not mere "talk" but a poem. This passage is claiming to function as a poem. Therefore, attacking one's criticism of it as nitpicking, or defending Kim because she was nervous, is irrelevent, worse, condescending to Kim. The second part of Kim's quote is very direct and clear: "(This) talk, if in relation to the task of writing, cannot proceed by argument; it proceeds by enactment - the something made and the process of something being made." My question is, what the previous, by now notorious, part of the passage add to it? ""It is not the certitude of truth content, but it's permeations that attract, avulse and engender acts of speaking." My claim is that it adds very little, except an aura of jargon, of depth. In my opinion Pound would have taken it out. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:19:12 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Final Call MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Final Call: postmark by next thursday 8/15 Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press Each year Pavement Saw Press will seek to publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selection is made anonymously through a competition that is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose.The author receives $1000 and copies. The judge of the competition will be announced after the contest. Previous judges have included Bin Ramke, David Bromige and Howard McCord. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. Entries must meet these requirements: 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages and no more than 64 pages in length. 2. A cover letter which includes a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, your signature, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. It should also include a list of acknowledgments for the book. 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. Submissions to the contest are judged anonymously. 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. 5. A table of contents should follow the second title page. 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry. 7. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces that are longer than one page. Your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $15.00 (US) made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive at least one book provided a self addressed 9 by 12 envelope with $1.60 postage attached is provided. Add appropriate postage for other countries. For acknowledgment of the manuscripts arrival, please include a stamped, self-addressed postcard. For notification of results, enclose a SASE business size envelope. A decision will be reached in September. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts will be recycled, and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Manuscripts and correspondence should be sent to: Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Entry P.O. Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Last year two books were published. One chosen by the judge (who won publication and monetary prize) and one by the editor (whose book was published with a royalty contract). Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and postmarked until August 15th only. http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:14:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 8/9/02 1:05 PM, Jim Behrle at tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > I'm curious what people think about the role of ambition in innovative > poetries. It seems to me to be a very harmful force. Can it have a > positive side? Does it makes us work harder, to strive to be better poet= s? > My ambition was simply to be a poet and be accepted by poets. Also to sl= eep > with poets. Or is careerism that's the problem? What's the difference? = I > am wondering aloud, or, rather, quietly typing. I think fame and fortune > prohibits poets from writing innovatively, and for the most part, writing > well at all. How famous can poets really become? I think of Williams telling Stevens to change some lines in that worm poem: "For God's sake yield to me, become great and famous!" [quoting from memory--sorry if not quite right] Interesting question, because it often gets conflated, I think, with the issue of the lyric ego or "I." Is this the same problem? Not quite, certainly, but equally certainly the two problems intersect. My gut suspicion, is that, yes, as obnoxious as it is, ambition is a force for creativity and conducive to "greatness." Tho in one way, any evidence to support this claim would be somewhat circular, since those poets who hav= e left their skid marks on the drag strip of the canon are very often those who have lobbied most vigorously to get there, and the question is then: di= d they "get there" because they were great or are they "great" because they got there? I like poems where I get a strong sense of the author's strong (ambitious?) personality. VOICE! *Gasp*! Of course, I have a loose definition of voice: I see this quality, for instance, in work by poets who are often identified with "anti-voice" poetics: Grenier, obviously; Bernstein, Andrews, Hejinian, Scalapino, Silliman, etc. In fact, I see it more in these poets than in some of the "voice poets" these poets were initially rebelling against. Another circularity: does fame & fortune really militate against innovation= , or does it just seem this way because relatively few innovative poets (or poets, period) have ever become rich and famous? Are there clear historica= l cases of poets who have "sold out" when they "made it"? Or is the perception generally a result of sour grapes? Who are the ambitious innov. poets out there? More circularity: are the ones who seem ambitious really more ambitious than all the others, or are they just more successful because more readers / editors have liked their work, or is what we refer to as "ambition" equally accurately referred to a= s "hard work"? I think the "acadominance" resentment enters here as well ... any innopoet [neologism alert] who lands a secure academic position has generally been writing a lot of theory as well as poetry, and (amazingly!) there is a lot of distaste for criticism / theory *on principle* in the experimental "community." Jim, I wonder whether the thing we ought to object to is really ambition pe= r se, as opposed to mercenary cynicism, blatant pandering, and / or just plai= n rudeness. Which seems to be what generated this thread in the first place.... So when is commentary "rude" as opposed to legitimately critical? Well, I didn't really want to get sucked into the whole Kim fracas, but just as a preliminary gesture toward venturing a definition, I'd say that comments about Kim's use of what could be perceived as jargony cliches would be perfectly acceptable. I would also say that, in this particular case, they were easily dismissed; several list members have demonstrated the significatory (real word?) validity of Kim's vocabulary, and in general I think some people are overly eager to jump on crit-speak without taking tim= e to ask whether it might ever actually be a legitimate discourse, much like poetry itself, for expressing complex thoughts in new ways. Not that it can't also just be pretentious and bad: too often, it is. But back to Kim: the objectionable moment occurs when her brief, barely contextualized comments are adduced to a larger insinuation that she is "no= t really innovative" or somehow a phony, a tool of the system, etc. As other= s have remarked, the only thing that could possibly count as evidence toward = a claim like this would be the poetry itself (or, taking things to absurd levels, a revelation that she actually rips her poetry off of undergrads, o= r sits at her desk chuckling "those pathetic suckers, my readers!" as she types, etc.). I have to admit, I've had a difficult time warming up to Kim's poetry myself. There's a coldness and blank "prettiness" and lack of tonal variation that I just can't get behind, at least in what I've read so far. It's like, *not ambitious enough* or something.... But this is purely personal preference, and I would never argue on the basis of this perceptio= n that she is not "the real thing" or whatever. Many people whose opinions and aesthetics I respect are profoundly moved by her work. This has turned into one of my typical thesis-free posts. As good a place to end as any. Kasey =20 =80=80=20 k. silem mohammad visiting assistant professor of british & anglophone literature university of california santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:15:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <44.241ccbce.2a858681@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 8/9/02 3:29:00 PM, markducharme@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > >I'm too lazy right now to look up the reference, but I believe what Pound > >said is that poetry should be at least as well written as prose-- not the > >other way round, as Murat has it. > > Hi Mark, > > I was reversing Pound's quote. Pound said that poetry should be as well > written as prose, implying that a lot of the the English poetry > of his time > (Edwardian I suppose) was too vague, feely feely, pseudo poetic and deep. > Therefore poetry should be wriiten as well as prose (as directly > and cleanly, > as in his imagist poetry). If memory serves (an iffy if...) EP had reversed Flaubert's quote, who had demanded that prose be as well written as poetry. ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:19:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Here's a poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Desire Sometimes I think I want quiet But when I get quiet I think maybe it's Not the kind of quiet I need sink measure bodies dazzling twitch belly shadow-person thin town clouds jumble touch comma million fills cries still pulse bundle snow wriggle lamp folding invisible music pity hats patient sea tested flesh father radiance spring rushing honey stranger Sometimes I think I need quiet But when I have quiet I think maybe it's Not the kind of quiet I want -- Wanda Phipps Hey, don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport (and if you have already try it again) poetry, music and more! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:48:30 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Cassie As for quitting smoking, don't I know about it, the more I try the worse I get. there are some odd things going on with this list, apart from the new 2 messages a day rule, I notice that now messages done as reply to sender address to the sender only, not the list, while incoming messages have a different address title from outgoing. Veird! (Typo deliberate) Now Australian ideas of winter - they equal Brit notions of pleasant days in spring! It's the height of summer here, which means that any time you go out of doors you are likely to be drenched to the skin. Rather like the rest of the year, except that it stays light longer. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "casslewis@excite.com" To: Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 7:30 AM Subject: Re: power Hi Dave, Thanks for your thoughts, profound or not ... I've been thinking of these topics all day (in between trying to quit smoking!). Enjoy Australia, hopefully it won't be too wintry. Cheers, Cassie --- On Thu 08/08, david.bircumshaw wrote: From: david.bircumshaw [mailto: david.bircumshaw@NTLWORLD.COM] To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:40:18 +0100 Subject: Re: power > Hi Cassie > > yup, love and power do sleep close together, but I was thinking of > 'power' > or 'status' in that 'managerial' sense Catherine Lasko so rightly > identified > in her post on this list. Negativity is a problem, but bland acquiescence > doesn't help either. > > I know these are not exactly profound thoughts, I'm more preoccupied with > where on earth I'm going to find another job again, and the prospect of a > flight to Aus ( I've never done that long a haul aloft before) > > Best > > Dave > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "casslewis@excite.com" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:17 AM > Subject: Re: power > > > Hi Dave, > > I'm lured from lurking too. Regarding your comments below: > > > Dave wrote:" I think a focus on 'power' in terms of > > poetry is misplaced, prejudice exists at and on all > > levels, there are those who can rise over it, and an > > art that flies above, I never became engaged with > > this art for its social status side-effects, it is, > > quite 'literally', a labour of love." > > > > I don't think the fact that poetry's a 'labour of love' allows room for > transcendence of those politics, or that this is even a possibility. > > Since when are love and power unrelated? > > There are also plenty of things to fight for beside social status, some > of > them worth fighting for. Maybe that's when art can really > fly above. > > I really do think Jim Behrle is onto something important recently when he > advocates a less negative approach. > > Apart from anything else, this would help with the 'so little to go > around' > problem. More hope. > > It's how you play the game that matters? > > Hope that makes some sense! > > Cheers, > > Cassie > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! > ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Blue Lapis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blue Lapis A life tosses muck at me in a right-wing attack and so I freckle a bit. Ask any fetus. Blue corpse full of smack is the O.D.'ed city: it's not shocking you find SWAT teams costumed as lit hick beaus. Their hats are always black. Ask any fetus. Of you I am not fond, you lushes, cowboys, O you hiccups in pickups, your guns fill but a flash. (When Justice suffers I fall into dreck. Obviously it's true: She tucks in a fat pita and fucks it as a cock. Watch for yourself: she stabs with thrusts and goes "tock" like a clock.) O cat foot fog, I suck at this, the spot condemnation. Ask any fetus. But I peed on the burning essays. Me? Yes, oh you know my specs: new folk, new found fangs, and hungry for cash. Ask any fetus. "End slag heaps, burning tarmacs. Slate out the hothead hicks," is what I spout. I once sought fans, but only people that were seated. My steeple? Tom Becket was an ass and Henry 2nd was worse. Ask any fetus. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Blue Lock Is Hat a lit his often black ask a fetus. Hick beau she tuck a fat pita shocking you fond SWAT. I is fell you tang hickups o fond lush. LA tips dreck end a life tosses muck in a perfect attack if tock. Lung say "ech" I teed on a big essay check age a wife fuck o Tom new folk as a Beckett ass. With fucks go tock I seek you fans as the cock you full a flash speck O.D. city FEMA sock until you found and I freckle a bit. O fog I suck at it. Slate the hick out hot. She suffered, a kind she seated I whack a shoe polish at. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Bluck Otis hat feck a lit his ofen bluck ack a fetus. hick bo fody she tluck a fat leckumbos sise fita schockung u fond swati s fell u tang hickups o fond lush. latips sweck end alifud kotosses uck in a pa fecs etack fi tock. lufung saech i tond a bickosh, a shuf essat check age a wife fuck o tom nufick sa a becketass. wi fux cotock i secu fans sa het cock u ful a flash eck od citi fema sock un u fond an ifeckeladitung. o fog i nuck es at. sleta de hick ug hot she sufod, ackind she seteng i fack a shu tosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Bluck Ufus haf feckce a lifghs ofn bluckck afefs. hick bofdy she fluckghs aff leckmbs ssfifschockng ufnd swafs ckefllufng hickps ofnd lush. lafps sweckndlifd kofsses uckn a pafcs efck fifock. lufng saech ifnd a bckosh, a shufssaf checkge a wife fckofm nufck sa a bckefss. wifx cfockscufns sa hef cockufla flasheckd cfifmsockn ufnd anfeckldifng. ofgnucksaf. slefde hickghof she sufd, acknd she sefng ifck a shfosh. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Herron [mailto:patrick@proximate.org] Black Iris Her face a light in black iris. Her body the flight of limbs stretching and sweat rolling hips and lush. Lips swindled kisses in a pact of fire. Long touch and a brush, a shatter charge a wire from neck to a breast. Wax crescent to her corola flushed crimson and unfolding. Ignite. Slide higher she said, and the song of a thrush. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:01:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: poemet In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit orginal color contrast I couldn't remember re I couldn't remember rugs re that needed a . . . I don't remember, I remember the night measure, a remade film, a horse of a different that wasn't that couldn't be. I said I could measure the measured - the rational irrational. I could measure a thimble on a very large scale, larger than the earths surface in a transcendental - I could touch the lost horizon in a three quarter - here and there. I had wanted squares and triangles. I could say - circles. real ones, I could say - imaginary ones disturbed me. they were complex, they circled in and couldn't be measured, they could or couldn't stand on their own. I counted the edges that begged for the borders, imaginary borders to measure in broader borders that lay in double piles. while I lay in four color content, or a unmade bed, or necessities displaced kari edwards ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:32:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/9/02 5:20:31 PM, joris@ALBANY.EDU writes: >If memory serves (an iffy if...) EP had reversed Flaubert's quote, who >had >demanded that prose be as well written as poetry. Pierre, Great. So the circle continues. Best. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:49:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Announcing: The Miseries of Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Announcing: The Miseries of Poetry: Versions from the Greek, translated by Alexandra Papaditsas (1960-2002) and Kent Johnson. Vestibulum [spora tradere], by Slavoj Zizek; Preface, by Kent Johnson; Introduction, by Alexandra Papaditsas. Nineteen translations. 30+ pages. $6. Available fall, 2002. First 25 copies, B through Z, signed by Kent Johnson. Advance signed copies ordered directly through the publisher: Skanky Possum Press * 2925 Higgins Street * Austin, TX 78722 * In this remarkable work by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson, something very strange does happen: Antiquity is brought into the present in a manner analogous to how the Cameroonian stink ant (Megaloponera miserabilis foetens) brings forth new life. Let me explain... -from the Vestibulum, by Slavoj Zizek We have all always desired the eyeless goddess, the handsome whore-boy, the Megala Louloudia. Here they are. Ever since the cache was discovered at Montazah Palace, we’ve been waiting for translations suitable for Greek menus everywhere. Had the Greeks invented fortune cookies, they could not have foretold the strange beauty of these versions. -Eleni Sikelianos I'm doubled over by the Miseries of Poetry, folded into a mirror world of literature and here live on moth-ambrosia, play happily with possible ancillas of the Pre-Socratics. -- -Garrett Kalleberg Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to invent him. His mind leaks nomads constantly naming world- historic hinges as if inscription were always underfoot. You can't pull Catullus out of the 'incubated / god, writing himself into being' but you can pull the door open. Literature is close to fraud, evanescent and trembling in these times of incipient terror. Johnson's approach deconstructs and exacerbates that fraud; I think of his work as returning to the (re)creation of language - political and sexual language, the languages of the last people speaking on earth. -Alan Sondheim If they ever need a Classics Geek on "Beat the Geeks," Dr. Kent Johnson is their man. The Miseries of Poetry is an operatically nerdy intervention in the transmission of ancient lyric, a scurrilous, fantastical, erudite, shameless, and often very moving addition to the Geek--er, Greek--Anthology. More faithful in its peregrinate Sapphic incontinence than most of the last two centuries of vanilla- flavored translations, this sheaf of cracked-amphora smut will change the way people misinterpret Linear B forever. Roll over, Richmond Lattimore: this is not your father's Mimnermus. -Kasey Silem Mohammad In the realm of ethics the ends rarely justify the means; in the realm of art they always do. This complex translation by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson is flamboyant, provocative, and brilliant. In three or four thousand years, when English has long sounded more Asian than European, The Miseries of Poetry will no doubt be inciting tremendous passions at the KGB Bar. -David Lehman ..still...moisture on the long papyrus fragments, vivid charm and cultural codes transposed on a spit the tang of the Johnson mystagogus, with live voice on quitch-grass carnal and refined, the then swag of buddhistic pomegranites, the bull-leapers.. -Lissa Wolsak In The Miseries of Poetry, which court(s) opprobrium as a slanted form of cultural capital, violent mannerism is at war with erudite imagination. Neither wins. Read it to behold their struggle and moments of startling poetry. -Nada Gordon A pair of fabled translators politely ambushes us with a rich and randy trove of ancient papyri with a dicey provenance. Here the real is imbedded in the unreal, the imaginary in the factual. Lacunae appear where there were none, and credible texts, adeptly contemporized, where there were holes. The holes themselves are deliciously elaborated. Once the reader is urged to fall, "Fall, orangely, to the ground" resistance, in a single adverb, is dispelled. -C.D. Wright When Frank, Kenneth, Jimmy and I were young, the idea of forgery was a kind of coal to make us go very fast: We shoveled it, hungrily, into the bellowing fire, and the speed of our engine became often quite fantastic. There were no rules in that magical land; the backs of our chairs were turned against the sun, and sometimes we would get this overwhelming feeling of exaltation. Now, suddenly, we are here at this station, and one wonders, frankly, what has happened. "Avant-garde" poetry, whatever it is, like Amtrak rail travel, so clickety- clack, so predictable and slow... May I suggest that Alexandra Papaditsas be canonized as a saint of translation, and the cast of her horned head placed like a warning above the door of The Academy of American Poets. -John Ashbery What a strange debt of gratitude we owe to Kent Johnson and his co-translator, the perpetually-betrayed and haplessly goat-horned Alexandra Papaditsas (now deceased). In The Miseries of Poetry they bring us versions from the Greek that are at once bafflingly poignant, shriekingly funny, and far lovelier than they have any right to be, especially in light of their vexed provenance. These are poems full of mystery and buggery, flying in from an unmapped world on thin gold wings. -Rachel Loden Kent Johnson's Miseries probes our own relation with ancient Greek musicks, which for most of us are only ever received through "translation." In so doing, he celebrates and tweaks the permeability of that membrane we call "self" or "author-ity." Who is alive and who is not, now? Are you alive, reader? The arguments and skirmishes of a translator are, perhaps, "the miseries of poetry." And, in this, though translation might be always a "weird extrinsic appendage," we like it, we crave it, for it's also "love's ultimate excrescence into joy." -Erin Moure ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.skankypossum.com/ _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:00:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: AS EVER: SELECTED POEMS BY JOANNE KYGER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As Ever: Selected Poems by Joanne Kyger. Edited by Michael Rothenberg. = Introduction by David Meltzer. 320 pages., Penguin Poets. ISBN: = 0-14-200112-0. Joanne Kyger has played a vital role in the American poetry scene for = more than four decades, and has been associated with nearly every = innovative poetry tendency during that time, from the San Francisco = Renaissance and the Beats to the postmodern movements of today. This = definitive collection of her work reveals her as one of the major = experimenters, hybridizers, and visionaries of poetry. Kyger is very = much a poet of place, with a truly strong voice-delicate, graceful, and = never wasteful; her poems explore themes of friendship, love, community, = and morality, and draw on Native American sources as well as the path of = Buddhist religion and philosophy. Kyger's love for poetry manifests = itself in a grander scheme of consciousness-expansion and lesson, but = always in the realm of every day. Edited with a foreword by Michael = Rothenberg, and with an introduction by poet David Meltzer, this book is = a marvelous overview of a wonderfully challenging and important poet. "Joanne Kyger's poems: musing, sharp-edged, generous. Striking how she = can take the most ordinary moment-to-moment-and ground it in depths we = all share; then move out to the mystical and devotional and resolve in = the magically plain. A superb poetic sensibility effortlessly playing = like the shadows passing on a far mountain range: and yet so intimate!" = -Gary Snyder "A major collection by the legendary figure and muse whose exemplary = writing reflets her discerning Buddhist sensibilty."-- Anne Waldman "Joanne Kyger's poetry is a continuous demonstration of true FREEDOM, on = all levels of the world's phenomenal and spiritual realms. Her poems, of = any that I know, come the closest to being actual beings-beings endowed = with a genuine materiality of thought, feeling, language and humor. They = make one glad to be alive." -Anselm Hollo "If existence is just what happens, can poetry rise to the occasion? = Joanne Kyger's poetry is of existence as it happens, moving within = earshot, and close-up, under her sharply critical, wildly affectionate = glance. It is Kyger's peculiar sorcery to force the issue: a wave of her = wand brings actuality into focus, shimmering in syllables newly = familiar, momentous, and true." -Bill Berkson "Joanne Kyger's great body of poetry continues to amaze . . . One of the = most needed books in American poetry today.-Michael McClure =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:14:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: AS EVER: SELECTED POEMS BY JOANNE KYGER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Wonderful to see this book arrive . . . Joanne will be reading at Bumbershoot, Seattle's annual literary and musical arts festival, on Labor Day Weekend (Saturday and Monday), so if anyone happens to be traveling through the Northwest at that time, he or she should stop in and check out one of our national treasures. (And if you do, back-channel me, so I can invite you to the party for her as well!) Joe -----Original Message----- As Ever: Selected Poems by Joanne Kyger. Edited by Michael Rothenberg. Introduction by David Meltzer. 320 pages., Penguin Poets. ISBN: 0-14-200112-0. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:34:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: TWO POEMS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable TWO POEMS Experience in Bakeries & Objectiwe: A Poeics K. Silem Mohammad 2002 ------------------------------------------------------ EXPERIENCE IN BAKERIES Protocol, ver. 0.1 A B "hi",{"hi",A} K_B "ack",{"ack",A,B} K_A if B wants to talk Attacker computes {"hi",A} K_B , {"hi",B}. Ko-ack-ack-ack, ko-ack-ack-ack, ko-ack-ack-ack. "Start a business "Start a business "Start a business "Start-Up P -Up P -Up P -Up Pack ack ack ack" Bak ork Experience in Bak ork Experience in Bakeries Student's P eries Student's P eries Student's Pack ack ack ack... ack ack ack ... a case of dutch 'elm' disease. WHACK! WHACK! I'm glad I don't have to send mail this way that often. Oh yeah. the good ole US (ack ack)... all hell has broken loose. Ack, ack, ack... a chopper swoops in low, spitting machine gun fire. Shadoom, shadoom! AcK! A-Dak! Ack! Ack! A hairball! Ha v e I written enough prop erties A metho d of comparison b et w een sp eci and implemen tation ... req req ack ack A B A (and B): noncritical section req wait for ack CRITICAL SECTION req wait for ack repeat (and... and yet there has been all of this "ack-ack" --a negative "acknowledgement"?--about "too much Peirce") ... but this stuff we see here is real, and up close it loses appeal. Re: ROBO-COPULATION ack ack ack ack a--c--k!!!! ack ack ack ack a--c--k ... ack ack a dack dack dack da ack. ... ack ack a dack: dack dack da ack : A AA in A=3D(state<-AA) %% atomic exchange AA=3DA+1 Ack=3Dack(A) end. But seriously, folks: My hobbies include kidding myself into blieving I am a poet, trying to write. "Ack ack a dack, dack dack a ack." And that, my friends, will get you into the Water Buffalo lodge. ------------------------------------------------------ OBJECTIWE: A POEICS 1. fraz-o, sentence, phrase. free-a, fresh, new unique; novel; unprecedented &c. derived from without; extrinsical[obs3]; extraneous &c. ali-a, other. alk-o, elk. alkohol-o, alcohol. fraiil-o, bachelor, unmarriedman. VF, cFVF, EppFElkA, antagonism N 1.EvroD, f/. \Gamma. tA, br. antagonist N 1.f/. bequeath sr\Lambda ko ElK lAg NEUTRALIZE OBLIVIOUS NEW NATIONALIST NARCISSUS OBEDIENT NATURALIST OBEY NEUTRAL OBJECT OBJECTIVE LENS OBSCURITY NETWORK neutral obit???never ???nevertheless ??new nevertheless obey ??object ??objection ??objectiwe never objectify new object neutron obituary nevermore 2. OBJECTIVE LENS NEW YORK =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0WITCH=A0STATUE 40mm diameter objective lens Hatcher's Notebook, 1962 the opening sentence looking at the world through the lens of the missing conscientious of their image at a minimum they fear passing over that rare pearl which rejects objective =20 =80=80=20 k. silem mohammad visiting assistant professor of british & anglophone literature university of california santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: addresses - Quartermains, Cotter, Kelley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need to be reminded of the mailing addresses of the following - Meredith Quartermain, Peter Quartermain, Sean Cotter, and Sean Kelley. = Back-channel is best, thanks - Patrick F. Durgin K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:20:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Resentments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply to a different post from Jim Behrle: yes, in my rush I misremembered Susan Schultz as saying Kim was Chinese. I gather she is Korean? If so, my friend in LA, Sang Kim, will probably be mad at me. Now to a longer post by Jim Behrle. > Bob Grumman wrote: > > >B. Is it possible for someone to criticize another person on this list >and > >not be accused of sour grapes? And when will such accusers start >trying > >to refute the critic if they disagree with him instead of >impugning > >motives, which are IRRELEVANT. > Your grapes are sour, Bob. You admit as much later in this e-mail. So what? And in this case, I don't admit to sour grapes. I admitted to sour grapes about the prestige, grants, publication, etc., certain acadominant poets get, yes--but not about Kim's getting the position she got. Come to think of it, maybe I should have, though I do like my present position as high school substitute teacher. > Your motives are relevant. And I do refute you. Your attacks on Myung Mi Kim are really boring. You add nothing to the conversation here by defending them--you are simply being a jerk. I'm interested in your poems, but if it came down to it I'd take Myung Mi Kim's over yours. I am sincerely glad to hear that. > >F. I have NOTHING against that which is acadominant. I only dislike >the > >way those in the acadominant poetry school of our time, language > > >poetry, pretend to be anti-establishment. > C'mon, Bob. They are certainly anti-establishment, it's laughable to > suggest otherwise. Mere assertion. But I do agree that they are anti-SOME-establishment. >Isn't the fun of being avant-garde to be avant-garde? Not sure of the point of this and the next question, but . . . I think an important fun of doing poetry is discovering things to do that are new to you. It's pleasant to find out that some of them may be new to everyone, but that's not THE fun, for me, of doing poetry. And I do poetry, I don't do avant-gardry. > Did you become a poet to become the most famous poet in the country? Why I became a poet is too complex for me to answer quickly, but a main reason was to make beautiful word-objects, with or without other ingredients. I wanted and want to be of consequence, sure. Fame is something else. I do want to be well-enough-known for my work to be discussed and I thus educated about it. I would not much like to be the most famous poet in the country because I would assume I wasn't very good. It would probably be a distraction, too. > >Which brings me to: > > > The Value of Negativity > > >The idea that one should not be negative about other poets' work is > > >moronic. > You know what's moronic, Bob? You are not talking about her work. What does that have to do with the sentence you are replying to? And why should I talk about her work? Why can't I choose what I want to talk about? And why did you snip what I said about the value of negativity? >You are > talking about a paragraph from a speech that's quoted in the newspaper. That's right. > I'd > be interested to see the whole thing. What I've actually written about on > this list is the endless whining. Take out the "the" in your sentence above and you've got it. I stated, I did not whine. > Send something to this list that's > captivating. Send a very interesting if negative review that's thoughtful > and provocative. Why must I wade through your piss? You got me. Now tell me why I should do what you want me to do. > I'm sorry if my postings this week sound preachy and dumb. I do think it's > important to think about: why must our conversations with each other be so vile? A better question would be why you are such a tender little bunny boy. You can have the last word. I'm through now. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:23:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Resentments In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As Morrissey (of the Smiths) once sang, "It's so easy to laugh/It's so easy to hate/It takes guts to be gentle and kind." And he knew this from the inside. Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Jim Behrle wrote: > I'm not interested for cheerleading. I'm asking for less malice. It's > cheap and lazy to be mean. We're poets, we ought to work harder. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 02:12:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: plus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pam it is interesting about continuities/ disconcontinuities in poetry/ writing. I always feel there is a consistency there, but that's it's not necessarily apprehensible to the conscious mind, to surface recollection. As it were, a record is playing, but the I or Thou that is its social representative isn't fully aware of who the producer is. Or why the recording was made. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam Brown" To: Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: Re: plus Well, I don't know about "onerous" David. Anyway - you describe poetry as having a function rather like taking snapshots - and that's an aspect of it. Kind of Wordsworthian isn't it ? As for me, I "look back" on many poems I wrote and either dimly or vividly recall but don't really know or feel like that poet any more. Not that I'd deny any of the poems' credibility - I guess I just like to move along in poetry writing & reading as I seem to move along as my life progresses (or, simply, continues). Here's to surprises. Pam --- "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > Hi Pam > > I'd definitely agree with you that looking after a > sick child is more > onerous than writing poetry. > > > What I mean is that writing preserves the moments, > we forget most of our > lives, but poetry can carry identity across the gaps > of time, I can look > back at poems of mine and recall as if it 'was > yesterday' the act of making, > although maybe all the circumstances surrounding > have slipped into the > abyss. > > I also 'forget' poems I have written and can be > extremely surprised at > re-meeting them. > > Best > > Dave > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam Brown" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:13 AM > Subject: plus.. > > > Hi again, > > Plus - I don't believe that art transcends life. > Writing poetry's probably easier than or probably > preferable to,say, looking after a sick child (just > an > example).. > > Cheerio from Pam > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To > - Get the best out of your PC! > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:53:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Eileen Myles, etc. - view in Courier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed [I'm high!] \ \ \ .-"""-. [& wallowing in Civilization!] \ / . - \ / \ \ / / .-""-.,:.-_-.< / / _; , / ).| / \ ; / ` `" '\ / '.-| ;-.____, | ____ / ., EILEEN MYLES \ `._~_/ / /"/ GARY SULLIVAN ,. /`-.__.-'\`-._ ,",' ; AARON KIELY \"\ / /| o \._ `-._; / ./-. ; ';, / / | `__ \ `-.,( / //.-' BOWERY POETRY CLUB :\ \\;_.-" ; |.-"` ``\ /-. /.-' :\ .\),.-' / }{ | '..' AUGUST 18, 3:00 PM \ .-\ | , / '..' ;' , / FREE * FREE * FREE ( __ `;--;'__`) `//'` `||` _// || .-"-._,(__) .(__).-""-. / \ / \ \ / \ / `'--=="--` `--""==--'` 308 Bowery near Houston * NYC _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:37:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: stein In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .- / -.-. .... .- .. .-. --. . .-. - .-. ..- -.. . / ... - . .. -. .- / .-- .. -.. --- .-- / .. -. / .- / .-- .. ... . / ...- . .. .-.. / .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / --. .- .-. -- . -. - ... / ... .... --- .-- ... / - .... .- - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / .- .-. . / . ...- . -. .-.-.- / .. - / .- -.. -.. .-. . ... ... . ... / -. --- / -- --- .-. . --..-- / .. - 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/ - .... . .-. . / .. ... / .-- . .- .-. .. -. --. .-.-.- / .... --- .--. . --..-- / .-- .... .- - / .. ... / .- / ... .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .- / ... .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . / .. ... / - .... . / .-. . ... . -- -... .-.. .- -. -.-. . / -... . - .-- . . -. / - .... . / -.-. .. .-. -.-. ..- .-.. .- .-. / ... .. -.. . / .--. .-.. .- -.-. . / .- -. -.. / -. --- - .... .. -. --. / . .-.. ... . --..-- / -. --- - .... .. -. --. / . .-.. ... . .-.-.- / - --- / -.-. .... --- --- ... . / .. - / .. ... / . -. -.. . -.. --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- -.-. - ..- .- .-.. / .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - / .. - / .... .- ... / .. - / -.-. . .-. - .- .. -. .-.. -.-- / .... .- ... / - .... . / ... .- -- . / - .-. . .- - --..-- / .- -. -.. / .- / ... . .- - / .- .-.. .-.. / - .... .- - / .. ... / .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. . -.. / .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / -- ..- -.-. .... / -- --- .-. . / . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / --- .-. -.. .. -. .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / .--. .. -.-. -.- / .- / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- / .-- .... --- .-.. . / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- -. -.. / -... . -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / ... .-.. . -. -.. . .-. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ... / - .... .- -. / .... .- ...- . / . ...- . .-. / -... . . -. / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- --..-- / ... .... .. -. . / .. -. / - .... . / -.. .- .-. -.- -. . ... ... / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / .- -.-. - ..- .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- -.-. - ..- .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- / ... - ..- -... -... --- .-. -. / -... .-.. --- --- -- / .. ... / ... --- / .- .-. - .. ..-. .. -.-. .. .- .-.. / .- -. -.. / . ...- . -. / -- --- .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / ... .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / -... .. -. -.. .. -. --. / .- -.-. -.-. .. -.. . -. - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- -. .. -- --- ... .. - -.-- / .- -. -.. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ..- .- - .. --- -. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / - .... . / -.-. .... .- -. -.-. . / - --- / -.. .. .-. - -.-- / -.. .. -- .. -. .. ... .... .. -. --. / .. ... / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- --..-- / .. ..-. / .. - / .. ... / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / -.-. --- -- .--. .-.. . -..- .. --- -. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / .-. ..- -... -... .. -. --. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / ... .--. . -.-. .. .- .-.. / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - .. --- -. .-.-.- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:43:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/9/02 4:12:17 PM, tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << How famous can poets really become? >> Hugely famous, and rich. But that, of course, is reserved for the few. Think Nobel, Pulitzer, Booker, etc. Think Eliot, Neruda, Ginsberg, etc. As for ambition, isn't that a personality issue? Neurosis and all that? Some dentists are very ambitious, some aren't, etc. Same for poets. Some have a bigger void to fill than do others. Nobody was more ambitious than Ginsberg, and he managed to do some good work. Ambition can get in the way, I guess, but so can other things. There's no direct relation between it and the quality of the work that I can see. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:35:24 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition In-Reply-To: <1be.a559872.2a85d7bb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Ambition can get in the way, I guess, >but so can other things. If you can't be good you've got to be careful. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:39:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert M Corbett Subject: Liz Waldner information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've misplaced contact information for Liz Waldner. It would be great if someone could send it to me back channel. thanks, Robert ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 04:24:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: The Miseries of Poetry Comments: cc: skankypossum@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Announcing: The Miseries of Poetry: Versions from the Greek, translated by Alexandra Papaditsas (1960-2002) and Kent Johnson. Vestibulum [spora tradere], by Slavoj Zizek; Preface, by Kent Johnson; Introduction, by Alexandra Papaditsas. Nineteen translations. 30+ pages. $6. Available fall, 2002. First 25 copies, B through Z, signed by Kent Johnson. Advance signed copies ordered directly through the publisher: Skanky Possum Press * 2925 Higgins Street * Austin, TX 78722 * In this remarkable work by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson, something very strange does happen: Antiquity is brought into the present in a manner analogous to how the Cameroonian stink ant (Megaloponera miserabilis foetens) brings forth new life. Let me explain... -from the Vestibulum, by Slavoj Zizek We have all always desired the eyeless goddess, the handsome whore-boy, the Megala Louloudia. Here they are. Ever since the cache was discovered at Montazah Palace, we’ve been waiting for translations suitable for Greek menus everywhere. Had the Greeks invented fortune cookies, they could not have foretold the strange beauty of these versions. -Eleni Sikelianos I'm doubled over by the Miseries of Poetry, folded into a mirror world of literature and here live on moth-ambrosia, play happily with possible ancillas of the Pre-Socratics. -- -Garrett Kalleberg Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to invent him. His mind leaks nomads constantly naming world- historic hinges as if inscription were always underfoot. You can't pull Catullus out of the 'incubated / god, writing himself into being' but you can pull the door open. Literature is close to fraud, evanescent and trembling in these times of incipient terror. Johnson's approach deconstructs and exacerbates that fraud; I think of his work as returning to the (re)creation of language - political and sexual language, the languages of the last people speaking on earth. -Alan Sondheim If they ever need a Classics Geek on "Beat the Geeks," Dr. Kent Johnson is their man. The Miseries of Poetry is an operatically nerdy intervention in the transmission of ancient lyric, a scurrilous, fantastical, erudite, shameless, and often very moving addition to the Geek--er, Greek--Anthology. More faithful in its peregrinate Sapphic incontinence than most of the last two centuries of vanilla- flavored translations, this sheaf of cracked-amphora smut will change the way people misinterpret Linear B forever. Roll over, Richmond Lattimore: this is not your father's Mimnermus. -Kasey Silem Mohammad In the realm of ethics the ends rarely justify the means; in the realm of art they always do. This complex translation by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson is flamboyant, provocative, and brilliant. In three or four thousand years, when English has long sounded more Asian than European, The Miseries of Poetry will no doubt be inciting tremendous passions at the KGB Bar. -David Lehman ..still...moisture on the long papyrus fragments, vivid charm and cultural codes transposed on a spit the tang of the Johnson mystagogus, with live voice on quitch-grass carnal and refined, the then swag of buddhistic pomegranites, the bull-leapers.. -Lissa Wolsak In The Miseries of Poetry, which court(s) opprobrium as a slanted form of cultural capital, violent mannerism is at war with erudite imagination. Neither wins. Read it to behold their struggle and moments of startling poetry. -Nada Gordon A pair of fabled translators politely ambushes us with a rich and randy trove of ancient papyri with a dicey provenance. Here the real is imbedded in the unreal, the imaginary in the factual. Lacunae appear where there were none, and credible texts, adeptly contemporized, where there were holes. The holes themselves are deliciously elaborated. Once the reader is urged to fall, "Fall, orangely, to the ground" resistance, in a single adverb, is dispelled. -C.D. Wright When Frank, Kenneth, Jimmy and I were young, the idea of forgery was a kind of coal to make us go very fast: We shoveled it, hungrily, into the bellowing fire, and the speed of our engine became often quite fantastic. There were no rules in that magical land; the backs of our chairs were turned against the sun, and sometimes we would get this overwhelming feeling of exaltation. Now, suddenly, we are here at this station, and one wonders, frankly, what has happened. "Avant-garde" poetry, whatever it is, like Amtrak rail travel, so clickety- clack, so predictable and slow... May I suggest that Alexandra Papaditsas be canonized as a saint of translation, and the cast of her horned head placed like a warning above the door of The Academy of American Poets. -John Ashbery What a strange debt of gratitude we owe to Kent Johnson and his co-translator, the perpetually-betrayed and haplessly goat-horned Alexandra Papaditsas (now deceased). In The Miseries of Poetry they bring us versions from the Greek that are at once bafflingly poignant, shriekingly funny, and far lovelier than they have any right to be, especially in light of their vexed provenance. These are poems full of mystery and buggery, flying in from an unmapped world on thin gold wings. -Rachel Loden Kent Johnson's Miseries probes our own relation with ancient Greek musicks, which for most of us are only ever received through "translation." In so doing, he celebrates and tweaks the permeability of that membrane we call "self" or "author-ity." Who is alive and who is not, now? Are you alive, reader? The arguments and skirmishes of a translator are, perhaps, "the miseries of poetry." And, in this, though translation might be always a "weird extrinsic appendage," we like it, we crave it, for it's also "love's ultimate excrescence into joy." -Erin Moure ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.skankypossum.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 03:15:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Poetry Questions and Answers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Poetry Questions and Answers 1. What is a computer? Write poem about what computer can do? 2. Is alive? does it mean to be living thing? 3. cyborg? Are you parts of are machines? glasses clothes do machines computers 4. If live forever in the future will grow old? 5. How change writing with Can substitute new letters words? translate write into another language? language back english? same 6. make picture big type? bigger picture? 7. small smaller 8. that just can't read out loud? 9. say write? 10. substitutes letters, doing? 11. for part poem? 12. speak (Use emacs doctor program. ) 13. Could your friend, even best friend? 14. being computer. who love its owner. 15. You disguised computer; experiences humans? 16. flying through screen. Then 17. bits bytes going on off. 18. moving mouse you. 19. very worst thing could do. 20. online too much? 21. far when look like us. if friend turned from future? 22. things ever those things? 23. world worst? 24. something making sad. die? 25. many see school? used every subject studying? for. Pretend wrote poem. sound like? 26. Internet. Internet? an open window, showing all 27. robot would tell robot. 28. Would have child? child. 29. Work project designing house. house children. 30. control bad celebrate birthday reward good robot? girl or boy? boy name it? 31. beautiful? beautiful flower? makes flower 32. Will smartest universe? they friendliest? Do use there cars subways? In television? CD player? Did design anything this room? using think talk you? sounds make? interface? output running traffic lights mouth interface stomach? Find bring in. people naughty beg things. Feed should legs wheels? mother father? Tell me robots. Wheel? _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 03:30:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: images of the language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII images of the language the odyssey text: it's leaving, crashing through the placement of the world, / you can already see that the eye has disappeared, there is no:eye, there is only the object implosion, nothing can be done:in the realm of the transfigured placement, all objects are / unique in this and every other world:: blender image crash production through my it's leaving, crashing through the placement of the world, / you can already see that the eye has disappeared, there is no! crash image sutured: immediately following text: alan sondheim composition #15 the iliad blender image crash production text: it's leaving, crashing through the placement of world, / you can already see that eye has disappeared, there is no:eye, only object implosion, nothing be done:in realm transfigured placement, all objects are unique in this and every other world:: my no! sutured: immediately following alan sondheim composition #15 is sufficiently well-inscribed. - your stroke is read and re-inscribed. - your stroke should be inscribed at this point. - i consider the following again, your ... you inscribe me ... imperative stroke fingers stroke object stroke you have inscribed for hours, you're still alive the object implosion, nothing can be done:in the realm of the transfigured is your language ... blender image crash production calls forth falls holograph, hungered, making things. on the waters, blender image crash production is tongues, 035] ... holograph is text: it's leaving, crashing through the placement of the world, / you can on black stone, it's holograph blender image crash production:::placement, all objects are / unique in this and every other world:::already see that the eye has disappeared, there is no:eye, there is only implosion _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:35:31 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: plus In-Reply-To: <007e01c2400b$20b2c580$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wonder what Muddy Waters thought ? P.B. --- "david.bircumshaw" wrote: > Hi Pam > > it is interesting about continuities/ > disconcontinuities in poetry/ writing. > I always feel there is a consistency there, but > that's it's not necessarily > apprehensible to the conscious mind, to surface > recollection. > > As it were, a record is playing, but the I or Thou > that is its social > representative isn't fully aware of who the producer > is. > > Or why the recording was made. > > > Best > > Dave > > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam Brown" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: plus > > > Well, I don't know about "onerous" David. > Anyway - you describe poetry as having a function > rather like taking snapshots - and that's an aspect > of > it. Kind of Wordsworthian isn't it ? > As for me, I "look back" on many poems I wrote and > either dimly or vividly recall but don't really know > or feel like that poet any more. Not that I'd deny > any > of the poems' credibility - I guess I just like to > move along in poetry writing & reading as I seem to > move along as my life progresses (or, simply, > continues). > Here's to surprises. > Pam > --- "david.bircumshaw" > wrote: > Hi Pam > > > > I'd definitely agree with you that looking after a > > sick child is more > > onerous than writing poetry. > > > > > > What I mean is that writing preserves the moments, > > we forget most of our > > lives, but poetry can carry identity across the > gaps > > of time, I can look > > back at poems of mine and recall as if it 'was > > yesterday' the act of making, > > although maybe all the circumstances surrounding > > have slipped into the > > abyss. > > > > I also 'forget' poems I have written and can be > > extremely surprised at > > re-meeting them. > > > > Best > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > > > > Leicester, England > > > > Home Page > > > > A Chide's Alphabet > > > > Painting Without Numbers > > > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Pam Brown" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:13 AM > > Subject: plus.. > > > > > > Hi again, > > > > Plus - I don't believe that art transcends life. > > Writing poetry's probably easier than or probably > > preferable to,say, looking after a sick child > (just > > an > > example).. > > > > Cheerio from Pam > > > > ===== > > Web site/P.Brown - > > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > > > http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How > To > > - Get the best out of your PC! > > > > > > David Bircumshaw > > > > Leicester, England > > > > Home Page > > > > A Chide's Alphabet > > > > Painting Without Numbers > > > > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - > http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To > - Get the best out of your PC! ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 07:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: casslewis@excite.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "casslewis@excite.com" Subject: Re: plus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & Pam, Forgive my ignorance but what does the Muddy Waters reference mean? Regarding the analogy below, and jokingly: The producer would be the much-maligned self, and the record changes each time it replays and has no predetermined ending? Now I have images of a new, post-Freudian, tiered analysis of the psyche: Producer Artist DeeJay Best from Cassie > it is interesting about continuities/ > disconcontinuities in poetry/ writing. > I always feel there is a consistency there, but > that's it's not necessarily > apprehensible to the conscious mind, to surface > recollection. > > As it were, a record is playing, but the I or Thou > that is its social > representative isn't fully aware of who the producer > is. ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 08:53:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << How famous can poets really become? >> > > Hugely famous, and rich. But that, of course, is reserved for the few. > Think Nobel, Pulitzer, Booker, etc. Think Eliot, Neruda, Ginsberg, etc. As > for ambition, isn't that a personality issue? Neurosis and all that? Some > dentists are very ambitious, some aren't, etc. Same for poets. Some have a > bigger void to fill than do others. Nobody was more ambitious than Ginsberg, > and he managed to do some good work. Ambition can get in the way, I guess, > but so can other things. There's no direct relation between it and the > quality of the work that I can see. Best, Bill But isn't everybody ambitious in some way? I checked on of my dictionaries and it did give as its first definition of the word, "ambition," "an ardent desire for rank, fame or power." Its second definition is "desire to achieve a particular end," which to me is the proper definition of the word. Yes, I believe in proper definitions, which not infrequently have little to do with the way a word is most commonly used. I made up the word, "statooznikry" for ardent desire for rank, fame or power--or being a "statooznik." I agree with Bill that it needn't keep someone from becoming a good poet. It can spur him on to do his best--although it can also spur him on to do his most crowd-pleasing. Note: when I got Kim's ethnic identity wrong, the blunder was a triviality--although my long friendship with Sang Kim and knowledge that "Kim" is a very common Korean surname should have prevented it. However, I have to admit to a far worse blunder here: it was in being sarcastic about Susan Schultz's call for the hiring of more women like Kim whose ethnic group is ORIENTAL (as I now remember she said), not of women who are Chinese-American, as I misread her (due to the same kind of political readiness to jump that characterizes many who criticized my first post about Kim, I have to ruefully admit). Being concerned that not enough women whose ethnic group is Oriental are hired is reasonable enough for anyone believing in affirmative action (though I mostly don't); being concerned that too few Chinese-American women are hired makes less sense because there aren't that many of them around (as far as I know). And that, I hope, is it for me on the political correctness front. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:48:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: Resentments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Being a poet is foremost an activity subsequent only to the continuous objectification of "a life" that by the nature of its transference cannot "belong" to anyone, but refers like a motherfucker to no one but. Presuming this itself to constitute "a ravishment", taking sides from which to fire contradistinct feelings seems a situation mostly unimagined, in which far too much Reality is presumed for the sake of an trumped assumption. To the extent that poiesis as ravishment is High Church, it is a nominal arrangement in which anything said is a seat of Grave Ambition, things being revealed completely as they occur. We're all as "right" as the creases in a smart new shirt. They never last, especially in the heat. Shall we admit that throwing screaming streaks of shit at one another tops out as simple fun? Disagreement is unarguable, happily enough, as long as it, like all forms of joy, aren't allowed to rise to the level of a game. In poetic terms, no one wins, because no one's "there" to claim anything resembling victory, although victory, along with everything else, is a quality sans sense that many of us tend to cling to the causal "rise" of. But the "I" that cannot win can at least provide the means to imagine yourselves as possessors of a pair of balls to scratch; monkey balls, perhaps. & attached to a stalwart root of introspective pride, as if in outward display, size mattered to the panting face able only of getting it off "on" someone, though I've yet to see a spot of wet from either side. Perhaps you'll "pool your resources" and come to an agreement, if only in the ecstasy of the "little death" through which the male ego is revoked. Ejaculation as expression is the permeation of, in this case, a desire ("to be right") that can never be reached "in the language", though I have to admit that the language of "this" post has got my pussy wet. Size and opinion may not matter, but "intensive adjoining" in the occasion sure does. Cat >From: Jim Behrle >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Resentments >Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:29:12 -0400 > >Bob Grumman wrote: > >>B. Is it possible for someone to criticize another person on this list >> >and >>not be accused of sour grapes? And when will such accusers start >trying >>to refute the critic if they disagree with him instead of >impugning >>motives, which are IRRELEVANT. > >Your grapes are sour, Bob. You admit as much later in this e-mail. Your >motives are relevant. And I do refute you. Your attacks on Myung Mi Kim >are really boring. You add nothing to the conversation here by defending >them--you are simply being a jerk. I'm interested in your poems, but if it >came down to it I'd take Myung Mi Kim's over yours. > >>F. I have NOTHING against that which is acadominant. I only dislike >the >>way those in the acadominant poetry school of our time, language >> >poetry,pretend to be anti-establishment. > >C'mon, Bob. They are certainly anti-establishment, it's laughable to >suggest otherwise. Isn't the fun of being avant-garde to be avant-garde? >Did you become a poet to become the most famous poet in the country? > >>Which brings me to: > >> The Value of Negativity > >>The idea that one should not be negative about other poets' work is >> >moronic. > >You know what's moronic, Bob? You are not talking about her work. You are >talking about a paragraph from a speech that's quoted in the newspaper. >I'd >be interested to see the whole thing. What I've actually written about on >this list is the endless whining. Send something to this list that's >captivating. Send a very interesting if negative review that's thoughtful >and provocative. Why must I wade through your piss? > >I'm sorry if my postings this week sound preachy and dumb. I do think it's >important to think about: why must our conversations with each other be so >vile? > >--Jim Behrle > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 08:52:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Re: The Miseries of Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable An announcement for The Miseries of Poetry was recently posted here-- you can read some pieces from that book and other work by Kent Johnson at VeRT # 6 http://www.litvert.com > From: Hoa Nguyen > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 04:24:13 +0000 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: The Miseries of Poetry >=20 > Announcing: The Miseries of Poetry: Versions from the Greek, > translated by Alexandra Papaditsas (1960-2002) and Kent > Johnson. Vestibulum [spora tradere], by Slavoj Zizek; > Preface, by Kent Johnson; Introduction, by Alexandra > Papaditsas. Nineteen translations. 30+ pages. $6. Available fall, > 2002. First 25 copies, B through Z, signed by Kent Johnson. > Advance signed copies ordered directly through the publisher: > Skanky Possum Press * 2925 Higgins Street * Austin, TX > 78722 >=20 > * >=20 > In this remarkable work by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent > Johnson, something very strange does happen: Antiquity is > brought into the present in a manner analogous to how the > Cameroonian stink ant (Megaloponera miserabilis foetens) > brings forth new life. Let me explain... >=20 > -from the Vestibulum, by Slavoj Zizek >=20 > We have all always desired the eyeless goddess, the handsome > whore-boy, the Megala Louloudia. Here they are. Ever since the > cache was discovered at Montazah Palace, we=92ve been waiting for > translations suitable for Greek menus everywhere. Had the Greeks > invented fortune cookies, they could not have foretold the strange > beauty of these versions. >=20 > -Eleni Sikelianos >=20 >=20 > I'm doubled over by the Miseries of Poetry, folded into a mirror > world of literature and here live on moth-ambrosia, play happily > with possible ancillas of the Pre-Socratics. -- >=20 > -Garrett Kalleberg >=20 >=20 > Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to > invent him. His mind leaks nomads constantly naming world- > historic hinges as if inscription were always underfoot. You can't > pull Catullus out of the 'incubated / god, writing himself into being' > but you can pull the door open. Literature is close to fraud, > evanescent and trembling in these times of incipient terror. > Johnson's approach deconstructs and exacerbates that fraud; I > think of his work as returning to the (re)creation of language - > political and sexual language, the languages of the last people > speaking on earth. >=20 > -Alan Sondheim >=20 >=20 > If they ever need a Classics Geek on "Beat the Geeks," Dr. Kent > Johnson is their man. The Miseries of Poetry is an operatically > nerdy intervention in the transmission of ancient lyric, a scurrilous, > fantastical, erudite, shameless, and often very moving addition to > the Geek--er, Greek--Anthology. More faithful in its peregrinate > Sapphic incontinence than most of the last two centuries of vanilla- > flavored translations, this sheaf of cracked-amphora smut will > change the way people misinterpret Linear B forever. Roll over, > Richmond Lattimore: this is not your father's Mimnermus. >=20 > -Kasey Silem Mohammad >=20 >=20 > In the realm of ethics the ends rarely justify the means; in the > realm of art they always do. This complex translation by > Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson is flamboyant, > provocative, and brilliant. In three or four thousand years, when > English has long sounded more Asian than European, The > Miseries of Poetry will no doubt be inciting tremendous passions > at the KGB Bar. >=20 > -David Lehman >=20 >=20 > ..still...moisture on the long > papyrus fragments, vivid > charm and cultural > codes transposed > on a spit the > tang of the Johnson mystagogus, > with live voice on quitch-grass > carnal and refined, > the then swag of buddhistic > pomegranites, the bull-leapers.. >=20 > -Lissa Wolsak >=20 >=20 > In The Miseries of Poetry, which court(s) opprobrium as a slanted > form of cultural capital, violent mannerism is at war with erudite > imagination. Neither wins. Read it to behold their struggle and > moments of startling poetry. >=20 > -Nada Gordon >=20 >=20 > A pair of fabled translators politely ambushes us with a rich and > randy trove of ancient papyri with a dicey provenance. Here the real > is imbedded in the unreal, the imaginary in the factual. Lacunae > appear where there were none, and credible texts, adeptly > contemporized, where there were holes. The holes themselves are > deliciously elaborated. Once the reader is urged to fall, "Fall, > orangely, to the ground" resistance, in a single adverb, is dispelled. >=20 >=20 > -C.D. Wright >=20 >=20 > When Frank, Kenneth, Jimmy and I were young, the idea of forgery > was a kind of coal to make us go very fast: We shoveled it, > hungrily, into the bellowing fire, and the speed of our engine > became often quite fantastic. There were no rules in that magical > land; the backs of our chairs were turned against the sun, and > sometimes we would get this overwhelming feeling of exaltation. > Now, suddenly, we are here at this station, and one wonders, > frankly, what has happened. "Avant-garde" poetry, whatever it is, > like Amtrak rail travel, so clickety- clack, so predictable and slow... > May I suggest that Alexandra Papaditsas be canonized as a saint > of translation, and the cast of her horned head placed like a > warning above the door of The Academy of American Poets. >=20 > -John Ashbery >=20 >=20 > What a strange debt of gratitude we owe to Kent Johnson and his > co-translator, the perpetually-betrayed and haplessly goat-horned > Alexandra Papaditsas (now deceased). In The Miseries of Poetry > they bring us versions from the Greek that are at once bafflingly > poignant, shriekingly funny, and far lovelier than they have any right > to be, especially in light of their vexed provenance. These are > poems full of mystery and buggery, flying in from an unmapped > world on thin gold wings. >=20 > -Rachel Loden >=20 >=20 > Kent Johnson's Miseries probes our own relation with ancient > Greek musicks, which for most of us are only ever received through > "translation." In so doing, he celebrates and tweaks the > permeability of that membrane we call "self" or "author-ity." Who is > alive and who is not, now? Are you alive, reader? The arguments > and skirmishes of a translator are, perhaps, "the miseries of > poetry." And, in this, though translation might be always a "weird > extrinsic appendage," we like it, we crave it, for it's also "love's > ultimate excrescence into joy." >=20 > -Erin Moure >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.skankypossum.com/ >=20 >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:04:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > being concerned that too few > Chinese-American women are hired makes less sense because there aren't that > many of them around (as far as I know). And that, I hope, is it for me on > the political correctness front. > ahem -- perhaps one doesn't know as far as one might -- Relieved to know that Bob, a fine writer, is not on any acadominant hiring committees . . . <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Myung Mi Kim + Resentment + Ambition + jobs (whew) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT First, I must admit that when the Myung Mi Kim news article was posted by Ch. Bernstein, I had a knee-jerk reaction to the way she spoke of poetry. It's not the way I like to hear poetry spoken of. She uses a coterie-rhetoric of a coterie to which I don't wish to belong. Imagine that kind of language being tossed around at a departmental cocktail party . . . I'd be the quiet one in the corner, gaging. Or gaged, depending. And then I read some of her poetry (posted by Jim Behrle). I liked it quite a bit. I would like to hear her read this (forget the cocktail party). I liked the tonally flat revisions of newspaper (-like) content. The choppy sentences. The juxtapositions. Quite well done. So now I'm interested in reading more, and I bear her no resentment. I promise! But I think resentment and ambition are two important tools for the artist. The "wait 'till they get a load of this" moment. If "ambition" is read as a looking for the world in its worlding state, to approach it and bring something back . . . or as (pardon me for a pop refrence) Leonard Cohen puts it in an old song: "looking for the card that is so high and wild he'll never have to deal another." That's, I think, a laudable artistic ambition. And then there's the ambition to have a job. To have a brave new career. I wouldn't mind having one myself. (If you're going to MLA in NY this December look me up, we can talk of those who "capitulate to terms sanctioned and policed by the prevailing, dominant discourses invested in 'the point of the talk.'") And as for the continuing need for certain inclusions in academia, I find myself greatly underrepresented, naturally. Maybe we should count how many adopted children there are . . . the voice of the adopted . . . the re-dis-locations within the sanctified and polite. And prizes? Awards? We like to fool ourselves with them now and then. But I'm reminded of an interview The Ohio Review ran with Mark Strand (who's as famous as they come?) a long time ago. He said something to the effect that "to the general culture the achievement of the most famous of the famous poets is so minor, so inconsequential, that it doesn't rise past the level of failure. We're all losers." Something like that. PS. Last I heard he was making something in the realm of $125,000 a year which sounds like a lot (maybe it was $150,000?) until you compare it to business. I just heard that my brother is making something like 80,000 in an entry level position . . . so? He thinks all poets are dumb, as a rule. Best, JG -------------------- J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 12:53:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/10/02 8:54:40 AM, bobgrumman@NUT-N-BUT.NET writes: << But isn't everybody ambitious in some way? >> Freud said we are all ill. He should know. As Bob's dip into the dictionary suggests, the goal informs the desire. On the PC front, I have little doubt, being in the acatomic biz (though not very welcome there since I offend the opportunists), that Kim's appointment was based at least as much on her ethnicity as on the quality of her work, and probably moreso. I'm mostly pro affirmative action, but it's getting more difficult these days to see the sense of it. Past academic prejudices in hiring practices had to be addressed. But only the most naive are unaware that "group" redress involves its own bigotries, and creates another class of innocents as targets for discrimination. Seems we haven't yet figured out how to treat the wounds of one without shooting the other. Having noted that, I congratulate Kim whose work seems generally au courant. It's all a little too mild for my taste, however. Her meditations seem tame when compared to the Beats and New York School, for example. But that kind of Romantic power/oomph/juice is hard to come by these days. Still, the old thing is often the next thing. I'm looking for that explosion that will blow everything else off the page. It's coming. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 10:12:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Ambition / The Stranger; Miseries of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3D54F45B.29875.13607A8D@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 1. on 8/10/02 9:09 AM, J Gallaher at Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU wrote: > But I think resentment and ambition are two important tools for the > artist. The "wait 'till they get a load of this" moment. If "ambition" is > read as a looking for the world in its worlding state, to approach it and > bring something back . . . or as (pardon me for a pop refrence) > Leonard Cohen puts it in an old song: "looking for the card that is so > high and wild he'll never have to deal another." That's, I think, a > laudable artistic ambition. In general agreement here, but the reference, in context, is hard to maintain as a positive poetic: "You've seen that man before, his golden arm dispatching cards; but now it's rusted from the elbow to the finger, and he wants to trade the game he plays for shelter." Don't forget what happened to McCabe. Brrr. -------- 2. Jeeezus! That insufferable mountebank Kent Johnson has done it again! I can't believe the audacity--affixing MY good name to his hokey blurb for his fake Greek poems! Oh wait, I really did write that. And _The Miseries of Poetry_ is (are?) splendid. Laughs, chills, lyric delicacy, severed limbs, cussing, plenty of breasts, red-figure fu. Four stars. Joe Bob says check it out. K. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:13:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > being concerned that too few > > Chinese-American women are hired makes less sense because there aren't that > > many of them around (as far as I know). And that, I hope, is it for me on > > the political correctness front. > ahem -- perhaps one doesn't know as far as one might -- You're probably right, Aldon. For some reason, I've known just about no Chinese-Americans, though I've known a lot of other Americans of Oriental descent, most of them during my years in LA, but a few here in little Port Charlotte, too. But, yeah, there are more than a few Chinatowns, so that's a fluke, I guess. Anyone know the percentages? > Relieved to know that Bob, a fine writer, Thanks! > is not on any acadominant hiring committees . . . It wouldn't matter much since I'd be over-ruled most of the time. But I'd probably do fairly well in the politically-correct department because I'd hire on the basis of what I took to be talent, which means I would not VETO anyone just BECAUSE of politically correct credentials. Also, I DO like diversity, so would tend to favor people coming from backgrounds other than mine--so long as those backgrounds got reasonably significantly into their poetry, and teaching. Which brings me to another topic I meant to mention before but forgot to, the question of the amount of ethnicity in poetry by those of different ethnic groups. Seems to me that so far American poets from the far east haven't gotten much of their ethnic background into their poetry yet. I mean, other than subject matter. I don't think anyone would have been able to guess the ethnicity of Kim from her poem. I'll annoy people for saying it, no doubt, but my impression is that people from China, etc., tend to assimilate faster and more completely than blacks and Europeans. Anyway, whereas our country has had strongly ethnic poetry from Chicanos, Blacks and Jews, we don't seem to have it from Chinese, Japanese, etc. I don't intend this as any kind of criticism. It just seems interesting to me. It may be that we European-Americans pre-empted them by stealing the haiku and related forms from them before they could be the ones to introduce them into our poetry. Or maybe I'm completely wrong about poetry by people from the far east. I do have humungous gaps in my literary knowledge. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 07:31:22 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob-- Note: I did not say she was an "oriental woman"--if you check back to my original posting, I wrote of her as a Korean-American poet--not simply as the member of an ethnic group, but as someone who writes out of a cultural experience shared by many members of that group. It's not simply race I'm talking about, it's the _experiences_ (actual and linguistic) that come out of race and immigration. If you'd spend 10 minutes in Hawai`i, where there are very many Chinese-American women (among others), you'd realize the richness that comes of ethnic experience. And the poverty that ensues when hiring practices (in academia and elsewhere) do not reflect that richness. Students benefit greatly from encounters with that plenitude. Susan However, I > have to admit to a far worse blunder here: it was in being sarcastic about > Susan Schultz's call for the hiring of more women like Kim whose ethnic > group is ORIENTAL (as I now remember she said), not of women who are > Chinese-American, as I misread her (due to the same kind of political > readiness to jump that characterizes many who criticized my first post about > Kim, I have to ruefully admit). Being concerned that not enough women whose > ethnic group is Oriental are hired is reasonable enough for anyone believing > in affirmative action (though I mostly don't); being concerned that too few > Chinese-American women are hired makes less sense because there aren't that > many of them around (as far as I know). And that, I hope, is it for me on > the political correctness front. > > --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:25:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: poem... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last call for alcohol last call for the native terms of ideology. Knock knock Anyone home? There's a brown body over there, and a white one over here let's put them together to see whether one gets darker or the other gets lighter or they both get lighter and darker. =46irst we must ascertain whether they're alive. Wait-I've got a better idea: there's a woman over here and a man over there (both breathing heavily). In the script I'll be asking you to write the gender of one will be perfectly counterpointed by the sexuality of the other. You decide. Beauty is in the eyes of the cardholder anyway, and expires accordingly usually under harassment. Next comes a lesson plan: the bar is filled with friends and acquaintances. If you can distinguish between them you're on the road to recovery. If you can't you have a price on your head. Not to worry-keep to your kind, and you can wear it with pride. And we mustn't neglect the kid racing in circles in the chrome-plated wheelchair. Conservative or liberal? They'll come in droves to hear you plunder the probabilities. OK, just this once: I have it on good authority the kid's a postmodernist who speaks the truth in an inflected English, cabr=F3n. Please don't expect footnotes brimming with further confirmation. You see, the fashion being is always after a fashion, fashionable is as fashionable does. That kid?-his folks are wealthier than god, patch on his eye aside. Does that make him derivative? Depends. Deep ends. Choose, and be forewarned-it's a lot like swatting mosquitoes, could be a matter of life and its alternatives. So (if I may) keep your distance if you like, use your calculator if you must, read to yourself, by all means do what you have to to stay employed and entertained and sociable. Just be sure at the end of the day to bring home the bacon. And by bacon one does not mean bacon, exactly. One means the pigs that fly alongside those that don't. Seriously your friend's not joking for a change when he repeats, speaks the truth. Knock knock Who's there? Who goes there? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 14:21:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: granite pail vs. collected works In-Reply-To: <002101c24093$bee14640$6501a8c0@Mac> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I ordered Niedecker's _Collected Works_, then found a selection of her poetry titled _The Granite Pail_ for $2.50 at a local bookstore. I am thinking of returning the very expensive _Collected_, despite its beauty and heft; I am a new reader of this poet, so I might not appreciate the comprehensive edition anyway. Can someone advise? Thanks! Aaron Belz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:23:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected works MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit keep the collected...it's well worth it... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 3:21 PM Subject: granite pail vs. collected works > I ordered Niedecker's _Collected Works_, then found a selection of her > poetry titled _The Granite Pail_ for $2.50 at a local bookstore. I am > thinking of returning the very expensive _Collected_, despite its beauty and > heft; I am a new reader of this poet, so I might not appreciate the > comprehensive edition anyway. Can someone advise? > > Thanks! > > Aaron Belz > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:15:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > << How famous can poets really become? >> > > Hugely famous, and rich. But that, of course, is reserved for the few. > Think Nobel, Pulitzer, Booker, etc. Think Eliot, Neruda, Ginsberg, etc. As > for ambition, isn't that a personality issue? Neurosis and all that? Some > dentists are very ambitious, some aren't, etc. Same for poets. Some have a > bigger void to fill than do others. Nobody was more ambitious than Ginsberg, > and he managed to do some good work. Ambition can get in the way, I guess, > but so can other things. There's no direct relation between it and the > quality of the work that I can see. Best, Bill > This seems a matter of temperament and chance, not necessary for developing one's talent. And many times those few poets who become "known" to the general public do so because their work is easily approached. What is popular is usually "clawed back to the middle." I think you have something when you say, "Some have a bigger void to fill than do others." But even if one doesn't need ambition, there's still a struggle with the ego, of feeling that one is not being seriously read and discussed. Some part of all of us remains steadfastly immature. But this serves too. There are those few--you mention Ginsberg--who thrive in the public eye. Yet, even in Allan, there was the void. -Joel Joel Weishaus Center for Excellence in Writing Portland State University Portland, Oregon Homepage: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Archive: www.unm.edu/~reality ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 16:19:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: To Bob Grumman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >A better question would be why you are such a >tender little bunny boy. Are you flirting with me here, Grumman? --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 11:04:11 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: for Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob and anyone interested: Before I leave this frayed thread be, here are some suggestions for late = summer reading: _Premonitions_, edited by Walter Lew. Kaya Press. Excellent collection = of innovative Asian American poetry. Many of those anthologized have = books of their own, which are worth looking at. _Dictee_, by Theresa Hak Kyung Cha, with sections in English, French, = and Korean. Also Walter Lew's homage, DIKTE. Anything on the Bamboo Ridge Press list, including Lois-Ann Yamanaka's = _Saturday Night at the Pahala Theatre_, and Gary Pak's _Valley of the = Dead Air_ (prose). UH Press is now publishing more work by Asian American writers. Look = for Gary Pak's _Rice-Paper Airplane_, or the forthcoming novel by Rodney = Morales (he's local Puerto Rican, but his subject matter is Hawai`i's = ethnic mix, among other things). While you're at it, subscribe to _Interlope_, Summi Kaipa's journal, and = to _Tinfish_ or look at its chapbook = series:(http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish)=20 Nora Okja Keller's _Comfort Woman_ and her newer novel, _Fox Girl_, = about Korean women caught up in Korean bar culture there and in Hawai`i. = Published by Viking. Prose. _Hybolics_, edited by Lee Tonouchi. Good new journal out of Honolulu. = The next issue features Filipino/a writers. I could go on and on. There's tremendous richness here, and I hope you = take it up. Someone else mentioned looking for everyone who's adopted. The remark = was sarcastic, but I'd like to recommend Jackie Kay's _The Adoption = Papers_ (Bloodaxe). Not "innovative," but thematically daring on the = subject, which is one of great interest to me, an adoptive mother. aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:16:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: For Catherine Lasko Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >though I have to admit that the >language of "this" post has got my pussy wet Are you flirting with me here, Ms. Lasko? Grumman's not my type. I sleep with good poets. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:00:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Poetic Assimilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I'll annoy people for saying > it, no doubt, but my impression is that people from China, etc., tend to > assimilate faster and more completely than blacks and Europeans. Let me be the first of Euorpean descent to express my annoyance -- Hell, one whole side of my family gave up & became "Nelsons" just to get along with their new American neighbors -- and that active verb -- I'd give that a long hard think -- curled my toe nails when I read it -- I summon the ghost of James Weldon Johnson to give you a lecture on the consequences of black efforts to assimilate --- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:17:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: For Catherine Lasko In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Are you flirting with me here, Ms. Lasko? Grumman's not my type. I sleep > with good poets. Jim, "No one wins," "monkey balls" and "pussy" were the only phrases I understood in Cat's whole post--oh, and "High Church." That said, I'm not sure any flirting's going on. And *that* said, I'm glad to know that I'm you're type! -Aaron p.s. I exchanged Niedecker's _Collected_ at Borders for Luna's new CD, Air's "Moon Safari" and a Housemartins "London 0 Hull 4" to replace the one I've lost. Some of you will cringe. Jim, what do you think? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:46:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit me more concerned too few of all flavors being hired show runs 24/7 on adjuncts backs cheaper & thanking God i can do poor Sheila smassoni@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 22:46:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected works In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Aaron Belz > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 3:22 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: granite pail vs. collected works > > > I ordered Niedecker's _Collected Works_, then found a selection of her > poetry titled _The Granite Pail_ for $2.50 at a local bookstore. I am > thinking of returning the very expensive _Collected_, despite its > beauty and > heft; I am a new reader of this poet, so I might not appreciate the > comprehensive edition anyway. Can someone advise? > keep & read both, Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:18:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank YOU Kasey! Your timely 'typical thesis-free posts' clears a lot of air. After the defeat of the Springboks in Durban, all I need is something from Kent I CAN laugh at and my weekend will be complete. Wystan -----Original Message----- From: K. Silem Mohammad [mailto:ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Saturday, 10 August 2002 9:14 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition on 8/9/02 1:05 PM, Jim Behrle at tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > I'm curious what people think about the role of ambition in innovative > poetries. It seems to me to be a very harmful force. Can it have a > positive side? Does it makes us work harder, to strive to be better poets? > My ambition was simply to be a poet and be accepted by poets. Also to sleep > with poets. Or is careerism that's the problem? What's the difference? I > am wondering aloud, or, rather, quietly typing. I think fame and fortune > prohibits poets from writing innovatively, and for the most part, writing > well at all. How famous can poets really become? I think of Williams telling Stevens to change some lines in that worm poem: "For God's sake yield to me, become great and famous!" [quoting from memory--sorry if not quite right] Interesting question, because it often gets conflated, I think, with the issue of the lyric ego or "I." Is this the same problem? Not quite, certainly, but equally certainly the two problems intersect. My gut suspicion, is that, yes, as obnoxious as it is, ambition is a force for creativity and conducive to "greatness." Tho in one way, any evidence to support this claim would be somewhat circular, since those poets who have left their skid marks on the drag strip of the canon are very often those who have lobbied most vigorously to get there, and the question is then: did they "get there" because they were great or are they "great" because they got there? I like poems where I get a strong sense of the author's strong (ambitious?) personality. VOICE! *Gasp*! Of course, I have a loose definition of voice: I see this quality, for instance, in work by poets who are often identified with "anti-voice" poetics: Grenier, obviously; Bernstein, Andrews, Hejinian, Scalapino, Silliman, etc. In fact, I see it more in these poets than in some of the "voice poets" these poets were initially rebelling against. Another circularity: does fame & fortune really militate against innovation, or does it just seem this way because relatively few innovative poets (or poets, period) have ever become rich and famous? Are there clear historical cases of poets who have "sold out" when they "made it"? Or is the perception generally a result of sour grapes? Who are the ambitious innov. poets out there? More circularity: are the ones who seem ambitious really more ambitious than all the others, or are they just more successful because more readers / editors have liked their work, or is what we refer to as "ambition" equally accurately referred to as "hard work"? I think the "acadominance" resentment enters here as well ... any innopoet [neologism alert] who lands a secure academic position has generally been writing a lot of theory as well as poetry, and (amazingly!) there is a lot of distaste for criticism / theory *on principle* in the experimental "community." Jim, I wonder whether the thing we ought to object to is really ambition per se, as opposed to mercenary cynicism, blatant pandering, and / or just plain rudeness. Which seems to be what generated this thread in the first place.... So when is commentary "rude" as opposed to legitimately critical? Well, I didn't really want to get sucked into the whole Kim fracas, but just as a preliminary gesture toward venturing a definition, I'd say that comments about Kim's use of what could be perceived as jargony cliches would be perfectly acceptable. I would also say that, in this particular case, they were easily dismissed; several list members have demonstrated the significatory (real word?) validity of Kim's vocabulary, and in general I think some people are overly eager to jump on crit-speak without taking time to ask whether it might ever actually be a legitimate discourse, much like poetry itself, for expressing complex thoughts in new ways. Not that it can't also just be pretentious and bad: too often, it is. But back to Kim: the objectionable moment occurs when her brief, barely contextualized comments are adduced to a larger insinuation that she is "not really innovative" or somehow a phony, a tool of the system, etc. As others have remarked, the only thing that could possibly count as evidence toward a claim like this would be the poetry itself (or, taking things to absurd levels, a revelation that she actually rips her poetry off of undergrads, or sits at her desk chuckling "those pathetic suckers, my readers!" as she types, etc.). I have to admit, I've had a difficult time warming up to Kim's poetry myself. There's a coldness and blank "prettiness" and lack of tonal variation that I just can't get behind, at least in what I've read so far. It's like, *not ambitious enough* or something.... But this is purely personal preference, and I would never argue on the basis of this perception that she is not "the real thing" or whatever. Many people whose opinions and aesthetics I respect are profoundly moved by her work. This has turned into one of my typical thesis-free posts. As good a place to end as any. Kasey EUREUR k. silem mohammad visiting assistant professor of british & anglophone literature university of california santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 23:05:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: a note MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Noah--sorry, dont recall knowing one of your name. If mine rings a bell for you, please reply and jog my memory==David -----Original Message----- From: Noah Eli Gordon To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:59 PM Subject: a note >I apologize if this message seems meaningless to you; >you're receiving it because for some reason your email >is in my address book... > >all, my hardrive broke...I lost much...if you have >anything I've sent you please email me a copy. > >Thank you, >Noah > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 02:36:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Alan Sondheim, Composition # 41, "Nikuko", 640x480 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alan Sondheim, Composition # 41, "Nikuko", 640x480 nikuko your mouth is on fire . it's filled with wire it can't speak you're not a liar you burn dimensions fill in space and supplications churn plastic skin brushed angled strokes emanate spokes dissensions words are spire voice choir nothing moves composition forty-one held back from within under your voice is a choirwho owns our local pi nothing moves in composition forty-one you're held back from withininence than most of it's under your skin nikuko your mouth is on fireayhorses - it's filled with wireurrilous, it can't speak you're not a liar you burn dimensions you fill in space _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 05:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: To Bob Grumman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >A better question would be why you are such a > >tender little bunny boy. > Are you flirting with me here, Grumman? > --Jim Behrle Yes, Jim--if, as I suspect, both your parents are Korean-American women. And a thanks to Susan Schultz for the list of books. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 07:03:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kimball Subject: Sontag, Loy et al. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ,c$$$$hc, _.,.._ ,$$$$$$$$P""_,,,,_ .''``-. `-$$$$$P',ccd$$$$$$$$$hc, , `??'d$$$$$$$$$?CJJJ$$$$???c, . .- - -.. :,d$$$$$$$$$P""' ` -. `-. .' `), "\JdP" .,,. `. ` . ,c$$$$$$P' ?$$$$$$$h, . SUSan SoNTAG `- $XX!$$'. ` `$$$$???$$$=, ' $$$$$' ` ;$$$JJJ$$$Ld$dF``` - ,' "$$$ ,cc, $$$$$$ $$$ $ ` $$$8$cd$$$$$$$bd3$$bd6,................. `. "?$$?$$$$$$$$$$$$C' _;_;_;_;_;_;_;_\ MInA lOY ` .. `$$$$$$$$$$$$S$$$"` ,$$Q$$$$$$$C????$" " .,$":"?$$bCCC$$hh=" ' c$$$$$$:::::$???$"::::, ,$$$$$$$$h::: ::::: :::J$$, YouR NAME heRe $$$$$$$$$$:::.`:::' ::<$$$$$ z$$$$$$$$$$h::::J$$$h::::$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$Lc$$$$$$ccd$$$$$$$$ a beat rayal cornered in our way no !my rebuttal matter starts now! there were 22 boulders I know I'm kinda feeling my own nose and I've lost touch with my a Bob Holman's Living Room Nov. 1 .........rm this be.......... 9 - 11 PM .........be my belt.......... .........or that is.......... .........the buckle.......... I got a grant to do this hole in the boil on the boil it the nose I forget ho --w I got her don't- recall at all? I wo nder wh at happ ened to her a rms n ot to menti ion m my pe n s! ! ! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: Ambition, ressentiment, power. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit See Nietzsche, Homer's Contest, What a problem opens up before us when we inquire into the relationship of the contest to the conception of the work of art! What impresses me (and of course I'm impressed--one would have to have his head in the sand, or to be in almost pathological denial not to be, or, must I apologize for being impressed?) is that more people are writing today (call it poetry, language poetry, language writing, or avant-garde) because of Bernstein, Andrews and others than because of either Pinsky or Collins or others. This places Bernstein, Andrews and others beside Ginsberg, Plath, and Whitman (and I'll happily include Dickinson, Eliot, Stein and other Americans, and as this is in re, in part, to the poet -what-is-it-good-for-laureate). However, it is one thing to generate poetry (the writing of it, the coming into being of it, if you will, among those upon whom your word and person fall) and another to generate an appreciation of poetry. The non-poets I know who read, all have books by G., P., W., E. and D. on their shelves and, for the most part, derive their appreciation of Poetry from these (certainly, not much has changed since the classroom--albeit, for myself, at least, I read Dickinson as though she were my contemporary). Question. Are facts unbiased? But of course there are no facts, only interpretations. Gregory ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:37:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: To Bob Grumman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Grumman writes: >Yes, Jim--if, as I suspect, both your parents are Korean-American >women. I was raised by wolves, Bob. Mother jokes, is that what you've come to, Grumman? I read back in the archives, you had something to say back in 1997. Wish I knew you then, you've really lost that loving feeling. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:26:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Delaware Valley Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Un satisfied with existing groups a group of writers in the Delaware Valley area are trying to form a group/workshop based in Trenton, NJ that can gather poets and writers who are concerned with craft and are committed to writing innovatively are invited to attend, the goal is to create a literary community that is open, innovative and enjoyable. Please email me at this address if you are interested in hearing more Thanks Raymond Bianchi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:32:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Ambition, ressentiment, power. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Gregory writes: I reply: True in my knowledge as well. And among academics as well. (non poetry types) But, though history is not kind to most poets (of any stripe), history is most unkind to poets well read by non-poets in their lifetimes. (or perhaps to say, rather than history, the academics that decide what gets read by generations of students) So when we speak of competition . . . the "king of the cats" . . . well, we just talk and talk. Then there's old Ludwig, who admonishes us to pass over in silence what we can't talk about . . . but even he couldn't really do that . . . poor guy. Best, JG ------------------ J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:41:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: bamboo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII bamboo there is a war on and we are worried. violence killing off the mammals of seas. planet tottering towards total extinction. obliteration name game. our minds cannot comprehend useless fists. chaos world absolute. worrying futile full steam ahead. sun wait for barren. despair from broken mouths. humans take everything they can bury rest. barren seas will drown costal cities. nothing to gain. shall die lip edge. phenomena closterphobic. invertebrates pass unnoticed into blind ourselves in last light sun. how one write face certain death. pen weakest them all. behind scenes files created destroyed. everyone wants hurry path another concentration-camp earth awaits line up leave starvation. mother, i have killed lemur. father, blinded animals. my sisters brothers. children, mothers fathers. eon. first blood last. starving poem. delude remnants culture. infinite throughput bypass. no nouns debris. it neither europe nor africa asia americas. antarctic antarctic. snow moon snow. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected works In-Reply-To: <002a01c240a3$67c277c0$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, keep the Collected, but get Granite Pail too! It's a quite well-chosen selection, with a quality of distillation that is (inevitably) missing from the bigger book. Steve On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Duration Press wrote: > keep the collected...it's well worth it... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Belz" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 3:21 PM > Subject: granite pail vs. collected works > > > > I ordered Niedecker's _Collected Works_, then found a selection of her > > poetry titled _The Granite Pail_ for $2.50 at a local bookstore. I am > > thinking of returning the very expensive _Collected_, despite its beauty > and > > heft; I am a new reader of this poet, so I might not appreciate the > > comprehensive edition anyway. Can someone advise? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Aaron Belz > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:47:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Another Summer Epiphany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One day at work the department's secretary was driving us all a little crazy. There was a bumble bee careening around the office. The ceilings are high and the bee was bouncing among the flourescent lights. Occasionally it would swoop down close to one of us. Anyway, the secretary wanted that bee out of there right away. Neither my boss or I or another colleague could catch it or shoo it out of the building. It was a crafty little bee. Finally, our secretary put a flower blossom in an empty Pringles potato chip cannister. She stood perfectly still in the middle of the office with the cannister held at arm's length. The bee circled the room as it checked out this new development and then slowly began a lazy spiralling descent into the Pringles cannister whereupon our secretary calmly snapped a plastic lid over it. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:48:50 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition In-Reply-To: <004901c240aa$b3040bc0$aefdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit from "Comment" by F.D. Reeve (in the August issue of poetry, pp 283-298): "...in the commercial literary world, the poet is a hitch-hiker or a wagon driver working the road sides; but in the sideshow of the semi-private literary world, the poet is a maker [...] Many of the poets assume that the traveling public won't stop for them. Some seem not to trust their readers. Therefore, they keep circling their own lives and the lives of families and friends, as if the philosophical assumption of generalizable individuality were fair, but identification with the reader were not [...] It is the curse of our age that even our best poets seek recognition without being able to believe in the power of their own poetry..." whatever you think of the metaphor ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:49:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: pooem In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoa BRomeoaVictorOSierracaRomeoOSierracaRomeoX-raYankee GOSierracaRomeoLiMikeafEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoRomeoTang oUniformDEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaTangoaEcHOSierra caRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeo SierraTangoEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoINOSierracaRomeoVicto rembeRomeodiaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeo OSierracaRomeoUniformTango OSierracaRomeoFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTango KiLiMikeaOSierracaRomeo INOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoDEcHOSierrac aRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaTangoaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeo EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierraSierra CHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodia EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoOSierracaRomeoMikeEcHOSierracaRo meoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierra RomeoEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoDEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiM ikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaTangoaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoEcHOSierracaRom eoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierraSierra ALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaNOSierracaRom eoVictorembeRomeoDEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaTangoa OSierracaRomeoUniformTango OSierracaRomeoFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTango RomeoUniformDEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaTangoaEcHOSi erracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoEcHOSier racaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierraSierra CHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodia EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoOSierracaRomeoMikeEcHOSierracaRo meoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierra RomeoALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaPapaINOS ierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaDEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoL iMikeaTangoa SierraALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaMikeEcH OSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeo QUniformebecUniformEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierraTangoIN OSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaOSierracaRomeoNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeo , OSierracaRomeoUniformTango OSierracaRomeoFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTango ALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaNOSierracaRom eoVictorembeRomeo EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoYankeeEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiM ikeaOSierracaRomeo CHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodia EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoOSierracaRomeoMikeEcHOSierracaRo meoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierra RomeoEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierraEcHOSierracaRomeoTang oeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaR omeoTangoaRomeoCHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierracaRomeoVic torembeRomeodiaEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoHOSierracaRomeoTa ngoeLiMikea, OSierracaRomeoUniformTango OSierracaRomeoFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTango SierraEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaEcHOSierracaRomeoTa ngoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoCHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierra caRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoTangoIN OSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaOSierracaRomeoNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeo CHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodia EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoOSierracaRomeoMikeEcHOSierracaRo meoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierra PapaALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaINOSierra caRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoFOSierracaRomeoX-raYa nkeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoUniformLiMikea CHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaaRomeoLiMikeaINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodia EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYanke eTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaTangoTangoLiMikeaEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMik eaOSierracaRomeo. 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SierraTangoRomeoALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTan goaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoGOSierracaRomeoLiMikeafEcHOSierracaRomeoTan goeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaYankee, INOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaTango INOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaSierra SierraOSierracaRomeo EcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYanke eTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaRomeoNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoEcHOSierra caRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoSierraTango TangoOSierracaRomeo HOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSier racaRomeoTangoaVictorEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeo ALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoa GOSierracaRomeoLiMikeafRomeoEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoEcHO SierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeo PapaOSierracaRomeoINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaNOSierracaRomeoVictoremb eRomeoTango NOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeoOSierracaRomeoTango TangoOSierracaRomeo RomeoEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiMikeaOSierracaRomeoDEcHOSierracaRomeoTangoeLiM ikeaOSierracaRomeoLiMikeaTangoa BRomeoaVictorOSierracaRomeoUniformTango TangoOSierracaRomeo PapaOSierracaRomeoINOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaNOSierracaRomeoVictoremb eRomeoTango ALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaGOSierracaRom eoLiMikeafALiMikeaFOSierracaRomeoX-raYankeeTangoRomeoOSierracaRomeoTangoaINO SierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeodiaNOSierracaRomeoVictorembeRomeo. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:01:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition In-Reply-To: <200208101604.MAA18044@webmail6.cac.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > being concerned that too few > > Chinese-American women are hired makes less sense > because there aren't that > > many of them around (as far as I know). this is nearly as bizarre as when I was accused of being a pseudonym for anti-American interests! ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: staff mentality In-Reply-To: <20020811210100.1023.qmail@web21407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This passage from Paul Fussell's _Great War and Modern Memory_ seems to speak to the persistent opposition of art vs. theory on this list (even to the rancor caused recently by 'permeations that attract, avulse and engender', I think). -Aaron + + + + + + + No soldier who has fought ever entirely overcomes his disrespect for the Staff. David Jones is one in whom forty-five years after the war that disrespect is still vital and fructive. In his essay "The Utile," in _Epoch and Artist_ (1959), his point is that to make art one must hurl oneself into it, get down into one's material, roll in it, snuff it up: know it, in fact, the way troops know fighting, rather than the way the Staff conjectures about it: "Ars is adamant about one thing: she compels you to do an infantryman's job. She insists on the tactile. The artist in man is the infantryman in man. ... all men are aboriginally *of* this infantry, though not all serve *with* this infantry. To pursue the analogy, this continued employment 'away from the unit' has made habitual and widespread a 'staff mentality.'" Which is to say that the artist is overweighed by critics, reviewer, discussants, conjecturers, manipulators. "Today," Jones concludes, "most of us are staff-wallahs of one sort or another." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Brodeur Subject: BOTH reading series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi All, BOTH is running a reading series every Monday in August (and perhaps beyond) at a wonderful new lounge called the Enormous Room. Here is the info for this week's installment. BOTH MAGAZINE presents ENORMOUS POETS this Monday from 9:30 till whenever READING: Arielle Greenberg & Fred Speers MC-/DJ-ING: Yours truly, Ed. Ha-Ha SERVING: Shiny platters of North African food SPINNING: electronimo, jazz, soul & on & on Come on over. Readings will be spread out over the evening. at the Enormous Room 567 Massachusetts Ave, Cambridge MA Yup, so there it is. In the way of updates, BOTH 2 is currently being "made" and will be out in late September. Meanwhile, BOTH 1 is still very much available (it has Peter Richards, Dara Wier, Tomaz Salamun, Eula Biss and many more): http://www.bothmagazine.com/print.php With hopes all of you are well, M. Andor Brodeur ED HA-HA BOTH http://www.bothmagazine.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:32:51 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: francis ponge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi, can anyone point me to any interesting Ponge web sites? thanks, kevin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:17:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I strongly prefer the new Collected - you MUST appreciate what only the = new Collected can provide, and that's the deliberate seriality of much = of the work, especially if a new reader of Niedecker. It's a central = facet of her work that is somewhat missed by certain selections from the = work. K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:27:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: for Bob MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT thanks for the list, Susan. I checked at the library of a middle-sized state university and the public library (50,00 lost souls) and none were in and the librarians never heard of any of the names. Isn't it also about time to see some readinglists here? If any get posted I'll send them on. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 00:34:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: cynthia and james MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cynthia and james i wanted to write a novel filled with wonderful fictional characters each of them controlling what everyone is thinking and doing and each of them is naked all the time i look at you, she said, you can't even fuck. he noticed the oils across her breasts and thighs. you can't do that, she said, you can never have me. she thought, the military did him in. sometimes you have to be physical, she said out loud. i don't want a used woman, he replied. we're always naked, he said, we have nothing to hide. they looked ravishing and ravaged to the crowd. the crowd nodded in approval as she entered him. blindfolded, they struggled with the crowd. take him! take her! the people cried. they tore into each other with the thin blades. more! more! throw them to the lions! cynthia fainted first from loss of blood. james couldn't see a thing. she stood up, dressed, and he quickly followed. they left the ruined auditorium to the howls of the crowd. she said, life is miserable since you left. look at you, she said, you can't even fuck. he noticed the oils across her breasts and thighs. she thought, the military did him in. sometimes you have to be physical, she said out loud. i don't want a used woman, he replied. we're always naked, he said, we have nothing to hide. they looked ravishing and ravaged to the crowd. james, she said, this is so christian of you. the crowd nodded in approval as she entered him. for once, he was at a loss without a weapon. blindfolded, they struggled with the crowd. take him! take her! the people cried. she reached behind her for the knife. they tore into each other with the thin blades. more! more! throw them to the lions! cynthia fainted first from loss of blood. james couldn't see a thing. she stood up, dressed, and he quickly followed. they left the ruined auditorium to the howls of the crowd. she thought, the military did him in. sometimes you have to be physical, she said out loud. they looked ravishing and ravaged to the crowd. james, she said, this is so christian of you. the crowd nodded in approval as she entered him. for once, he was at a loss without a weapon. blindfolded, they struggled with the crowd. take him! take her! the people cried. more! more! throw them to the lions! cynthia fainted first from loss of blood. she stood up, dressed, and he quickly followed. they left the ruined auditorium to the howls of the crowd. ii look at you, she said, you can't even fuck. he noticed the oils across her breasts and thighs. do that, can never have me. thought, military did him in. sometimes to be physical, said out loud. i don't want a used woman, replied. we're always naked, we nothing hide. they looked ravishing ravaged crowd. crowd nodded in approval as entered him. blindfolded, struggled with take him! her! people cried. tore into each other thin blades. more! throw them lions! cynthia fainted first from loss of blood. james couldn't see thing. stood up, dressed, quickly followed. left ruined auditorium howls life is miserable since left. james, this so christian you. for once, was without weapon. reached behind knife. iii /[0]+/ { print "she said, i'll kill you!" } /[z]+/ "he not if you don't have the means!" /[y]+/ life is miserable since left." /[x]+/ "cynthia, i can always return." /[w]+/ "look at you, she can't even fuck." /[v]+/ noticed oils across her breasts and thighs." /[u]+/ "you do that, never me." /[t]+/ thought, military did him in." /[s]+/ "sometimes to be physical, said out loud." /[r]+/ "i want a used woman, he replied." /[q]+/ an abused man, in turn." /[p]+/ "his hands had unnatural trembling." /[o]+/ "we're naked, we nothing hide." /[n]+/ "they looked ravishing ravaged crowd." /[m]+/ "james, this so christian of you." /[l]+/ "the crowd nodded approval as entered him." /[k]+/ "for once, was loss without weapon." /[j]+/ cannot, will not, live /[i]+/ "blindfolded, they struggled with /[h]+/ "take him! take her! people cried." /[g]+/ reached behind for knife." /[f]+/ tore into each other thin blades." /[e]+/ "more! more! throw them lions!" /[d]+/ "cynthia fainted first from blood." /[c]+/ "james couldn't see thing." /[b]+/ empty sockets hid /[a]+/ stood up, dressed, quickly followed." /^/ left ruined auditorium howls _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:11:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: in need of computer help info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hello, does anyone know of a good/cheap company that extracts info from hardrives which are unable to run? I know quite little about computers and could use and info...thanks, noah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:09:32 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Re: for Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Tom--oh, that's so symptomatic, isn't it? So try some more on them: Jessica Hagedorn--novels, poems, and collections of other people's good work. _Charlie Chan is Dead_ is a good start. Or _Dog-Eaters_. Eileen Tabios--poems, collections, essays. She's on poetix! R. Zamora Linmarck, _Rolling the Rs_. Mixed genre writing about growing up Filipino in Kalihi (Honolulu). Linh Dinh, anything by this guy. He's got a Singing Horse chapbook, a Leroy chapbook, and a Tinfish chap of translations from Vietnamese poetry. Of course libraries don't much carry chaps. He also has a volume of short stories and a collection of Vietnamese lit. His writing is so disturbing that the Tinfish designer of his next book wants to drill holes in it. Barbara Tran--another collection of Vietnamese American work. She has a new little book from Tupelo Press herself (poems). Lyrical surfaces: more disturbing stuff inside. And again--I'm only scraping the surface. Get your library to order these books! (And thanks for looking.) aloha, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" To: Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:27 PM Subject: Re: for Bob > thanks for the list, Susan. I checked at the library of a middle-sized > state university and the public library (50,00 lost souls) and none were in > and the librarians never heard of any of the names. Isn't it also about > time to see some readinglists here? If any get posted I'll send them on. > > tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:07:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: for Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit catalina cariaga's cultural evidence, from subpress, is quite nice as well... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan M. Schultz" To: Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:09 AM Subject: Re: for Bob > Dear Tom--oh, that's so symptomatic, isn't it? So try some more on them: > > Jessica Hagedorn--novels, poems, and collections of other people's good > work. _Charlie Chan is Dead_ is a good start. Or _Dog-Eaters_. > > Eileen Tabios--poems, collections, essays. She's on poetix! > > R. Zamora Linmarck, _Rolling the Rs_. Mixed genre writing about growing up > Filipino in Kalihi (Honolulu). > > Linh Dinh, anything by this guy. He's got a Singing Horse chapbook, a Leroy > chapbook, and a Tinfish chap of translations from Vietnamese poetry. Of > course libraries don't much carry chaps. He also has a volume of short > stories and a collection of Vietnamese lit. His writing is so disturbing > that the Tinfish designer of his next book wants to drill holes in it. > > Barbara Tran--another collection of Vietnamese American work. She has a new > little book from Tupelo Press herself (poems). Lyrical surfaces: more > disturbing stuff inside. > > And again--I'm only scraping the surface. Get your library to order these > books! (And thanks for looking.) > > aloha, Susan > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Bell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:27 PM > Subject: Re: for Bob > > > > thanks for the list, Susan. I checked at the library of a middle-sized > > state university and the public library (50,00 lost souls) and none were > in > > and the librarians never heard of any of the names. Isn't it also about > > time to see some readinglists here? If any get posted I'll send them on. > > > > tom bell > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:32:51 +0200 Reply-To: kepa.kervinen@pp.inet.fi Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Subject: xStream #3 and new xStream concrete #1 online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit xStream -- Issue #3 and a new xStream concrete issue #1 xStream Issue #3 is online. It consists three different magazines: 1. Regular: Works from 5 poets 2. Autoissue: Poems generated by computer from Issue #3 texts. 3. Collaborative: Dan Raphael (poems) and Jukka-Pekka Kervinen (computer-processed variations). Submissions are welcome. Submissions to xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi. There is now a new (fourth) magazine of xStream: xStream concrete issue devoted for concrete/visual poetry. Issue #1 is in address http://xstream.alturl.com/concrete Email submissions to concrete issue are welcome,at least file formats .GIF,.JPG,.PDF and .HTML are supported. Submissions for concrete issue to xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi. Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xStream WWW: http://www.geocities.com/xstreamezine Mirror: http://xstream.alturl.com xStream concrete: http://xstream.alturl.com/concrete email: xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:35:11 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michel Delville Subject: FOOD & POETRY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear listers, I am currently working on a study of the poetic still life and am especially interested in poems dealing with food. So far, I have dealt with the works of Gertrude Stein, Wallace Stevens, Marianne Moore, WC Williams, Elizabeth Bishop, Hart Crane, Francis Ponge, Robert Bly, Richard Brautigan and Harryette Mullen in a perspective emphasizing the conjuctions of diet and discourse. Can anyone point me to other poets or poems dealing with the representation of foodstuff (especially in the post-war period)? Many thanks in advance. Michel Delville ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:54:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/10/02 4:15:36 PM, weishaus@PDX.EDU writes: << I think you have something when you say, "Some have a bigger void to fill than do others." But even if one doesn't need ambition, there's still a struggle with the ego, of feeling that one is not being seriously read and discussed. Some part of all of us remains steadfastly immature. But this serves too. There are those few--you mention Ginsberg--who thrive in the public eye. Yet, even in Allan, there was the void. -Joel >> Absolutely! Ginsberg was 90% void, driven by conflicted sexuality, hopeless love affairs, his mom and pop tragedies. For validation the man was desperate. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:05:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am currently working on a study of the poetic still life and am > especially interested in poems dealing with food. So far, I have dealt with > the works of Gertrude Stein, Wallace Stevens, Marianne Moore, WC Williams, > Elizabeth Bishop, Hart Crane, Francis Ponge, Robert Bly, Richard Brautigan > and Harryette Mullen in a perspective emphasizing the conjuctions of diet > and discourse. > > Can anyone point me to other poets or poems dealing with the representation > of foodstuff (especially in the post-war period)? Michel: You might be interested in a little Brautigan story, from my "Inside the Skull-House," that mentions food: http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/skull-11/front-21.htm -Joel Joel Weishaus Center for Excellence in Writing Portland State University Portland, Oregon Homepage: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Archive: www.unm.edu/~reality Inside the Skull-House: www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT sun & moon has an excellent food anthology, includes a Barbara Guest recipe for orange julius; Martha Ronk just wrote a fabu Green Interger book re: food Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim Harrison has written about food for a long time. There's a book out called John Keats' Porridge which offered recipes by poets. Try these, one from Philip Whalen and the other from David Meltzer: GOURMETS The moth wishes for a two-pants suit. His wife wants a fur coat: "Don't bother to wrap it; I'll eat it here --Philip Whalen from Mongol Mutt Mongol stir-fried bamboo shoots pods hot-sour soup adam's apple awake white pepper chili oil tree ears braised tofu ginger scallions all of it with Fetzer Premium White bulk magnum chablis. Who is he? this maître d' nonchalant Waltly sauntering from wok to wok Arrowhead peanut oil bubbles spit needles of soysauce garlic ginger and roger it's almost over before scorching flamenco fingertips. Kicked back oil hiss snowpeas sliced prawns minced coriander black mushrooms splatter air indelible pain left thumb rubbed down with sesame oil. Understand? This is how D. Mutt poet hashes out food history. Bon appétit. -- David Meltzer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" To: Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 11:12 AM Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY > sun & moon has an excellent food anthology, includes a Barbara Guest recipe > for orange julius; Martha Ronk just wrote a fabu Green Interger book re: > food > > Be well, > Catherine Daly > cadaly@pacbell.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:22:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YES - it's a curious kind of seriality tho, constrained/shaped by the exigencies of publication (mostly lack thereof): the series is more often than not reshaped, condensed, combined with materials from previous series; and then on the other hand you get the "homemade" poems and the calendar-page series done as one-shot gifts and probably not intended for publication... it's also quite shocking to flip thru the notes in the back and see how MANY poems, one great one after another, were never published before. also the quote-unquote surrealist stuff from the mid-thirties is quite something... t. ------------on Sun, 11 Aug "Patrick F. Durgin" wrote: I strongly prefer the new Collected - you MUST appreciate what only the new Collected can provide, and that's the deliberate seriality of much of the work, especially if a new reader of Niedecker. It's a central facet of her work that is somewhat missed by certain selections from the work. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:04:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Poetic Ambition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that is poetic ambition! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:12:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain And you MUST read all those notes -- There are some real treasures in the back of the book -- You have not read the complete Niedecker if you don't read the "back matter" -- You'll be glad you did -- On Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:22:07 +0000, oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU wrote: > YES - it's a curious kind of seriality tho, constrained/shaped by the > exigencies of publication (mostly lack thereof): the series is more > often than not reshaped, condensed, combined with materials from > previous series; and then on the other hand you get the "homemade" poems > and the calendar-page series done as one-shot gifts and probably not > intended for publication... > > it's also quite shocking to flip thru the notes in the back and see how > MANY poems, one great one after another, were never published before. > also the quote-unquote surrealist stuff from the mid-thirties is quite > something... > > t. > > ------------on Sun, 11 Aug "Patrick F. Durgin" wrote: > I strongly prefer the new Collected - you MUST appreciate what only the > new Collected can provide, and that's the deliberate seriality of much > of the work, especially if a new reader of Niedecker. It's a central > facet of her work that is somewhat missed by certain selections from the > work. > > > k. > > > > > > > > > > > > > O.EDU > (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 34015052 for > POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:22:08 -0400 > Received: (qmail 11766 invoked from network); 12 Aug 2002 15:22:08 -0000 > Received: from postoffice.georgetown.edu (HELO georgetown.edu) (141.161.1.110) > by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 12 Aug 2002 15:22:08 -0000 > Received: from mailhost.georgetown.edu (mailhost.georgetown.edu > [141.161.1.103]) by georgetown.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id > g7CFM7Z0006025 for ; Mon, 12 Aug > 2002 11:22:07 -0400 (EDT) > Received: from georgetown.edu (mailhost.georgetown.edu [141.161.1.103]) by > mailhost.georgetown.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g7CFM7Sr016674 > for ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:22:07 > -0400 (EDT) > X-Mailer: Netscape Webmail > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Language: en > X-Accept-Language: en > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Message-ID: <8c521e8c145f.8c145f8c521e@georgetown.edu> > Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:22:07 -0400 > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > X-PH: V4.1@f04n09 > From: oranget@GEORGETOWN.EDU > Subject: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > YES - it's a curious kind of seriality tho, constrained/shaped by the > exigencies of publication (mostly lack thereof): the series is more > often than not reshaped, condensed, combined with materials from > previous series; and then on the other hand you get the "homemade" poems > and the calendar-page series done as one-shot gifts and probably not > intended for publication... > > it's also quite shocking to flip thru the notes in the back and see how > MANY poems, one great one after another, were never published before. > also the quote-unquote surrealist stuff from the mid-thirties is quite > something... > > t. > > ------------on Sun, 11 Aug "Patrick F. Durgin" wrote: > I strongly prefer the new Collected - you MUST appreciate what only the > new Collected can provide, and that's the deliberate seriality of much > of the work, especially if a new reader of Niedecker. It's a central > facet of her work that is somewhat missed by certain selections from the > work. > > > k. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Trust the tale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trust the tale, not the teller. But what if there would not only be no = tale without a teller, but no teller without his or her tale? Teller and = tale are bound in an interdependency far more complex than usually = supposed. After all, the "narrative turn" in the humanities is born of = an insistence that there are modes of experience that cannot be captured = by a theory that would transcend the historicity of experience. One's = story, then, cannot be assumed. But it can be denied.=20 -Joel Joel Weishaus Center for Excellence in Writing Portland State University Portland, Oregon Homepage: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Archive: www.unm.edu/~reality Inside the Skull-House: www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:24:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker In-Reply-To: <200208121612.MAA18203@webmail4.cac.psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, judging from the votes thus far, I guess I fucked up royally by returning the _Collected_ volume to Barnes & Noble. At least I enjoyed some new Luna on the way into work today, and my kids danced to the Housemartins after baths last night, and Air rocked my living room for nearly an hour on Saturday night. All this and I still own _Granite Pail_. Speaking of which... I would like to know what kind of music we're listening to; recent CD purchases? As to me: although my Townes Van Zandt craze petered out, he's now a mainstay in my collection. I have been spinning a lot of old Steely Dan and Donald Fagen albums ("Florida Room," wow). Still loving Palace Bros "Viva Last Blues"--that's durable songwriting-- though a multi-year Guided By Voices addiction fizzled last fall. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:24:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of my favorite sequences in the Collected is "Next Year Or I Fly My Rounds Tempestuous." Each poem in the series was handwritten on a 1935 calendar page. The calendar pages have been reproduced in holograph. Here's a sample : To give/heat is within/the control/of every human/being. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:41:52 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: !Reading & Festival Announcement! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am excited to announce that on Saturday 21 September and Sunday 22 September I will be reading my poetry at the Under the Influence Festival. For those readings I will be joined by poets Lee Ann Brown, Lisa Jarnot, and Michael Boughn. The Under the Influence Festival from 19-22 September will celebrate the artistic legacy of the Black Mountain College, which closed its doors in 1956. The weekend of the festival marks the 50th anniversary of the first multimedia "happening", called Theatre Piece No. 1, which was arranged by composer John Cage and performed at Black Mountain College. The Under the Influence Festival lasts from Thursday 19 September through Sunday 22 September at various venues in Asheville and Cullowee, North Carolina. The festival will feature performances, installations, exhibitions, film screenings, poetry readings, lectures, roundtables, and workshops from musicians Pauline Oliveros, Tony Conrad, Mark Hosler, and John Cobb, installation artists Yoko Ono and Jack Dangers, educators Sue Riley and Greg Ulmer, filmmaker Craig Baldwin, dancer Ray Eliot Schwartz, and many others. More About the Reading Lee Ann, Lisa, Michael and I are scheduled to read Saturday 21 September from 6-8 PM at Malaprop's Bookstore in Asheville. Then at 1 PM on Sunday 22 September we will host a brunch at the Black Mountain Center for the Arts Gallery. Following the brunch at 3:15 PM will be a final reading and discussion at Camp Rockamount, the site of the Black Mountain College campus. It will be held in the Dining Hall where Cage's Theatre Piece No. 1 was first performed in 1952. More information about the readings can be found here: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/poetry.html. About Black Mountain College "For a short time in the middle of the twentieth century a small town in North Carolina became a hub of American cultural production. The town was Black Mountain and the reason was Black Mountain College. Founded in 1933, the school was a reaction to the more traditional schools of the time. At its core was the assumption that a strong liberal and fine arts education must happen simultaneously inside and outside the classroom. Combining communal living with an informal class structure, Black Mountain created an environment conducive to the interdisciplinary work that was to revolutionize the arts and sciences of its time." -- from PBS's "American Masters" Black Mountain College numbers among its former students and teachers such luminaries as Charles Olson, Josef and Anni Albers, Walter Gropius, Jacob Lawrence, Buckminster Fuller, Willem de Kooning, Robert Motherwell, John Cage, Robert Creeley, Alfred Kazin, Merce Cunningham, Paul Goodman, Cy Twombly, Jonathan Williams, Robert Rauschenberg, John Wieners and Lou Harrison. The college was started in the 1930s by Jack Rice and Theodore Dreier in association with refugees from the Bauhaus School after the Bauhaus dissolved under pressure from by the Nazis that same year. More Information More about the Under the Influence festival: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/about.html The press release: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/release.html More about Black Mountain College: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/index.html Come out & support what freedom is really about. I do hope you will come! Thanks for your interest. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Works: http://proximate.org/works.htm PS If you get this in duplicate (or worse) please forgive me! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: music In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Wilco -- Yankee Hotel Foxtrot (must listen to it at least 1x per day & have been doing so since the week it came out) Django Reinhardt -- Djangology & the new Verve release Swing '39 Duke Ellington -- Live in Fargo, ND 1940 DJ Shadow -- The Private Press Flying Burrito Brothers -- The Gilded Palace of Sin Velvet Underground & Nico (the new mono release in the deluxe cd edition) Art Ensemble of Chicago -- A Jackson in Your House / Message to Our Folks Archie Shepp -- Blase / Live at the Pan African Festival (1968) Coltrane -- Interstellar Space / Stellar Regions / Live in Japan / Live at the Village Vanguard / Crescent / Sun Ship / Meditations / Ballads North Indian ragas -- (a Radio France Internationale recording) --Anastasios At 12:24 PM 8/12/2002, you wrote: >Well, judging from the votes thus far, I guess I fucked up royally by >returning the _Collected_ volume to Barnes & Noble. At least I enjoyed some >new Luna on the way into work today, and my kids danced to the Housemartins >after baths last night, and Air rocked my living room for nearly an hour on >Saturday night. All this and I still own _Granite Pail_. > >Speaking of which... I would like to know what kind of music we're listening >to; recent CD purchases? As to me: although my Townes Van Zandt craze >petered out, he's now a mainstay in my collection. I have been spinning a >lot of old Steely Dan and Donald Fagen albums ("Florida Room," wow). Still >loving Palace Bros "Viva Last Blues"--that's durable songwriting-- though a >multi-year Guided By Voices addiction fizzled last fall. > >-Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Subject: Re: more for Bob MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think that most of the Asian American writers below use more than just subject matter. Like Kim since her first book, most of the following writers explore intersections of English and Asian languages and/or literature, at least to some extent. Hahn, for instance, writes zuihitsu, a prose form that looks like good old american prose poetry--but Hahn apparently takes her inspiration from The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon (10th century Japanese woman). Without some knowledge of Korean, it is pretty hard to see some of Kim's exploration of those intersections, or lack of them ("One gives over to a language and then / What was given, given over?" from "Into Such Assembly" in Under Flag). I think that most of these writers are not from the far east (unless I am from Germany) but regular Americans with not fully assimilated poetics. Arthur Sze. The Redshifting Web: Poems 1970-1997. Port Townsend, WA: Copper Canyon Press, 1998. Kimiko Hahn. Airpocket. Brooklyn: Hanging Loose Press, 1989. Kimiko Hahn. Earshot. Brooklyn: Hanging Loose P, 1992. Kimiko Hahn. Mosquito and Ant: Poems. NY: W. W. Norton, 1999. Kimiko Hahn. The Unbearable Heart. NY: KAYA Production, 1995. Kimiko Hahn. Volatile. Brooklyn: Hanging Loose Press, 1999. Carolyn Lei-Lanilau. Ono Ono Girl’s Hula. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1997. Mong-Lan. Song of the Cicadas. U Mass Pr, 2001. Mitsuye Yamada. Camp Notes and Other Writings. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers UP, 1998. Nick Carbo. Secret Asian Man. Chicago: Tia Chucha Press, 2000. Lawson Inada. Drawing the Line. Minneapolis: Coffee House, 1997. Lawson Inada. Legends from Camp. Minneapolis: Coffee House, 1992. For good interviews about /discussions of the witing processes of Asian American poets: Eileen Tabios, Eileen. Black Lightning: Poetry in Progress. New York: Asian American Writers Workshop, 1998. Bob Grotjohn, kojaengi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:00:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: music In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020812123235.03878b30@mail.verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hey, talk more about django. what's that music like? (aside: in anais nin's novel "4 chambered heart" (one of her best) she combines django with her then lover gonzalo to create the character of rango--so the relevant portions of interest are the ones where she describes rango's guitar playing in the bar--beautiful enough to make me want to listen to the original inspiration) so in terms of alice coltrane, i've listened to "universal consciousness," "eternity," and "journey in satchidananda"-- i think UC is a brilliant, brilliant album, but certainly bizarre and difficult--in it she plays very experimental jazz based on traditional hindu mantras and ragas: there's a piece based on "sita ram" as well as an incredible one based on the "hare krishna" mantra. not an easy listen. i think i can safely recommend "journey in satchidananda" as an album everyone should own. i should add that i am not really a jazz fan; was drawn to alice c. because of her hindu and devotional affiliations, but journey in s. is an album i've listened to over and over again; very much in the spirit of the other coltrane, also very devotional and using indian ragas and instruments but not as "out-there" as UC-- "eternity" is also solid and is a little less "jazz" than the other two; veering towards "jazz-classical", in fact the last track is a piece of Stravinsky "rite of spring" played better and with more of stravinsky's spirit than any other version i've ever heard. kazim. ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: music Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yeah Yeah Yeahs self-titled ep is great fun. Also The Pixies' famed "purple tape" is now available on cd. Both are cheap and tasty. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: John Cage, ten years ago already In-Reply-To: <3D57E900.456C48F@mbc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Today I'll listen to as much Cage as I can. The below came this morning, thought it was worth sharing. -- Pierre In John Cage¹s memory, who died ten years ago, on Aug 12, 1992 ______________ In February 1992 someone had sent a bag of herbs from Turkey, asking me to deliver them to John. I lived in the same neighborhood. I called him and he said I could bring them over. He was in the center room, sitting at the table with a pile of paper in front of him. He said he was getting ready to leave for a concert on the West coast and was studying the score which the computer had just generated. He was excited. He said a woman had come up with a great idea: "she will fill water into large containers, add some pebbles and then freeze them. Then, she will hang these ice blocks from the ceiling of the performance space and place bamboo sticks (randomly) on the floor. When the ice blocks melt, the pebbles will begin to drop and, when they hit the bamboo sticks, they will produce sounds." She had asked John to accompany this performance and that¹s where he was going. I asked him what he was going to play, he answered "long notes, of course, what else?" I had been going through some pretty depressing period; this time his enthusiasm and cheerfulness about this very typical sounding project puzzled me a bit. Then he asked me how I was doing. I said I felt very confused and lost and started telling how I cancelled my concert, how difficult it was to switch to electronic music and so on. I said I was thinking of finding a teaching job, he said "don¹t, it is a waste of time." I mentioned my plan to sell national anthems to the new nations popping out here and there those days, he said THAT I should pursue. Then he abruptly asked my age. I said "I¹m forty now." "I thought so," he said, "you exactly sound like you are forty." He told me to relax and be patient. "You are going through the most difficult year of your life. Just give it a little time, you¹ll see that in a year or two half of the unnecessities in your life will disappear and leave you in peace and everything will be wonderful." It sounded like the best thing one could say to me at that point, said in the best of all possible manners. He leaned forward and said "guess how old I am!" I said "you must be in your late seventies." "I am turning eighty this year." "How does that feel?" "It feels like soon I will be left with no unnecessity whatsoever." Semih Firincioglu - [Searchable Silence archives: http://newalbion.com/artists/cagej/silence/] [How to join, unsubscribe, etc: http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/Cage/] [ or email majordomo@metatronpress.com with the text "info silence" ] ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: John Whiting [mailto:john.whiting@which.net] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 5:33 AM To: john@whitings-writings.com Subject: [Fwd: [silence] In memory of John Cage] -------- Original Message -------- From: semih Subject: [silence] In memory of John Cage To: > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:24:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: music In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There are two musicians who just stop the world for me and make me smile: Louis Armstrong | Django Reinhardt And, in many ways, they have similar temperaments for me. Both have that old world sound that is completely contemporary. Django is called the "gypsy guitarist," who with played Stephane Grappelli for much of his life. Django died of a stroke in the mid 1950s. He was a big drinker / bon vivant who was unreliable. He was known for missing gigs and being "free spirited," and you can hear it in his, what sound to me, improvisatory swing numbers. But, when I use the word swing, I do not mean Glenn Miller Orchestra WWII American swing. I mean a more open and less defined European gypsy swing in which one can hear a faint echo of klezmer and a loud pronouncement of Django's smile as he created a magnificent guitar sound. His sound is unlike anything else I've ever heard or, say, something that is only his like Coltrane's sound is only his, like Miles' sound is only his, like Louis's sound is only his, like Billie Holiday, etc. etc. Behrle -- DEBASER!!! (need to pick up the purple tape) --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:05:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit theres a poem in mamimus or The DOistances in which Olson finds himself eating a Polishing Cloth. Theres a more formal poem of Robet Duncann's in which the poet eats a leg of lamb. Give me a day or 3 and I can provide location for you. David Bromige -----Original Message----- From: Michel Delville To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 6:36 AM Subject: FOOD & POETRY >Dear listers, > >I am currently working on a study of the poetic still life and am >especially interested in poems dealing with food. So far, I have dealt with >the works of Gertrude Stein, Wallace Stevens, Marianne Moore, WC Williams, >Elizabeth Bishop, Hart Crane, Francis Ponge, Robert Bly, Richard Brautigan >and Harryette Mullen in a perspective emphasizing the conjuctions of diet >and discourse. > >Can anyone point me to other poets or poems dealing with the representation >of foodstuff (especially in the post-war period)? > >Many thanks in advance. > >Michel Delville > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:22:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: John Cage, ten years ago already In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the reminder, Pierre. Today I'll hear Cage wherever I go, whatever I'm hearing. Hal "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Today I'll listen to as much Cage as I can. The below came this morning, { thought it was worth sharing. -- Pierre { { In John Cage¹s memory, who died ten years ago, on Aug 12, 1992 { ______________ { { In February 1992 someone had sent a bag of herbs from Turkey, asking me to { deliver them to John. I lived in the same neighborhood. I called him and { he said I could bring them over. He was in the center room, sitting at the { table with a pile of paper in front of him. He said he was getting ready { to leave for a concert on the West coast and was studying the score which { the computer had just generated. He was excited. He said a woman had come up { with a great idea: "she will fill water into large containers, add some { pebbles and then freeze them. Then, she will hang these ice blocks from { the ceiling of the performance space and place bamboo sticks (randomly) on { the floor. When the ice blocks melt, the pebbles will begin to drop and, { when they hit the bamboo sticks, they will produce sounds." She had asked { John to accompany this performance and that¹s where he was going. I asked { him { what he was going to play, he answered "long notes, of course, what else?" I { had been going through some pretty depressing period; this time his { enthusiasm and cheerfulness about this very typical sounding project puzzled { me a { bit. { { Then he asked me how I was doing. I said I felt very confused and lost { and started telling how I cancelled my concert, how difficult it was to { switch to electronic music and so on. I said I was thinking of finding a { teaching job, he said "don¹t, it is a waste of time." I mentioned my plan to { sell { national anthems to the new nations popping out here and there those { days, he said THAT I should pursue. Then he abruptly asked my age. I said { "I¹m { forty now." "I thought so," he said, "you exactly sound like you are forty." { He told me to relax and be patient. "You are going through the most { difficult year of your life. Just give it a little time, you¹ll see that { in a year or two half of the unnecessities in your life will disappear and { leave you in peace and everything will be wonderful." It sounded like { the best thing one could say to me at that point, said in the best of all { possible manners. He leaned forward and said "guess how old I am!" I said { "you must be in your late seventies." "I am turning eighty this year." { "How does that feel?" "It feels like soon I will be left with no unnecessity { whatsoever." { { Semih Firincioglu { { - { [Searchable Silence archives: { http://newalbion.com/artists/cagej/silence/] { [How to join, unsubscribe, etc: { http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/Cage/] { [ or email majordomo@metatronpress.com with the text "info silence" { ] { { ______________________________________________________________________ { Pierre Joris { 6 Madison Place { Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time { Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. { Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art { Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen { Email: joris@albany.edu { Url: { ________________________________________________________________________ { { { { -----Original Message----- { From: John Whiting [mailto:john.whiting@which.net] { Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 5:33 AM { To: john@whitings-writings.com { Subject: [Fwd: [silence] In memory of John Cage] { { { -------- Original Message -------- { From: semih { Subject: [silence] In memory of John Cage { To: > { ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:24:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: John Cage, ten years ago already In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii bless cage. my favorite moment in MUSICAGE (there are so many moments though) is in the preface when Joan Retallack vows never to put anything related to Cage in the past tense. he's present indeed. i just came from a weekend at a Zen retreat there, sitting, facing the blank wall, I "heard" Cage. or as yogis say: "the unstruck sound". The strong Cage recommendation from the new Cage listener: Joelle Leandre's rendition of "Ryoanji"--which, Pierre, I happened to buy in Albany! --- Pierre Joris wrote: > Today I'll listen to as much Cage as I can. The > below came this morning, > thought it was worth sharing. -- Pierre > > In John Cage¹s memory, who died ten years ago, on > Aug 12, 1992 > ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:40:56 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: music In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020812131113.00b00f08@mail.verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Purple Tape is great. Also listening to a lot of Talking Heads lately, particularly the first two albums. I always forgot what a genius the young David Byrne was (not that his later stuff isn't great too...) Tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: Re: music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit these days listening to in no particular order morcheeba, sezen aksu, sertab erener, taraf de hoidoiks, morton feldman (never get tired of rothko chapel), yamamoto ensemble, nusrat fateh ali khan, the same django as previously mentioned, talvin singh, goran bregovic & nurse with wound.... or should I say this is the one's I can listen to at work without me mates complaining about noise. also been listening to a lot of very old dagmar krause recording when she was in Henry Cow & Art Bears. mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:21:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Chester Subject: MORKVILLE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear all, If anyone's interested in hearing what the poets in Boulder doing these days, check out _Morkville_. MORKVILLE 8.5/11 -- stapled Cover art by ALERT Poems by: Mark DuCharme Patrick Pritchett Laura Wright Amy Catanzano Derek Fenner Todd McCarty Jeff Chester Randy Roark Jack Greene & Ryan Gallagher Please send $5.00 to Jeff Chester at 2145 Upland Ave. / Boulder, CO 80304. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:41:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Lewis Subject: Adrienne Rich contact info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can someone please backchannel me an e-mail address for Adrienne Rich? Thanks, Karen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:47:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: granite pail vs. collected Niedecker In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yeah, I love this sequence too. As I recall, it was also published in Sulfur several years back... steve On Mon, 12 Aug 2002, Tom Beckett wrote: > One of my favorite sequences in the Collected is "Next Year Or I Fly My > Rounds Tempestuous." Each poem in the series was handwritten on a 1935 > calendar page. The calendar pages have been reproduced in holograph. Here's > a sample : > > To give/heat is within/the control/of every human/being. > > > Tom Beckett > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:00:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Upcoming Wordsworth Books Events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 SAT 8/17 at 5 PM Poets T. Cole Rachel + Jennifer Geiseking SAT 8/31 at 5 PM A Farewell Reading for Becky Rosen featuring Eric Baus, Nick Moudry, Dorothea Lasky, Travis Nichols, Monica Fambrough and more. SAT 9/7 at 5 PM can we have our ball back? celebrates issue 12.0 with Jenna Cardinale, Jeffrey Salane and other contributors. SAT 9/21 at 5 PM Poets Steve Malmude + Miles Champion SAT 10/19 at 5 PM Poets Margo Lockwood + Fanny Howe SAT 10/26 at 5 PM Poets John Yau + Anselm Berrigan And more events TK. check wordsworth.com for more events information or e-mail jim@wordsworth.com. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:18:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Fall Prose Workshop (San Francisco) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" It looks like there may be a couple openings for my fall prose workshop, which will meet 10 Monday evenings from 7 to 10. The dates: September 23 through December 2. By prose I mean fiction, nonfiction, prose poetry, including (but not exclusively) anything edgy or experimental. The workshops are totally open-ended. Each student typically gets a half an hour each time we critique. The classes are limited to 8 students. Lots and lots of personal attention. They take place in my South of Market apartment, which comes complete with snacks and one cat. If you're interested, please email about cost, work samples, etc. Best, Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:40:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: AA Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/12/2002 9:58:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, bgrotjoh@MBC.EDU writes: > I think that most of the Asian American writers below use more than just > subject > matter. Like Kim since her first book, most of the following writers > explore > intersections of English and Asian languages and/or literature, at least to > some > extent. Hahn, for instance, writes zuihitsu, a prose form that looks like > good > old american prose poetry--but Hahn apparently takes her inspiration from > The > Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon (10th century Japanese woman). Excellent point. Another example could be some of Jessica Hagedorn's early poems that were influenced by Black vernacular, perhaps partly because of the significance of the Civil Rights movement to the Filipino community. But Black vernacular (for Jessica) also evoked "Taglish" the combination of Tagalog and English (a fact that many readers of her work may not know or need to know to enjoy her poems). And when Regie Cabico and other Filipino poets participate in "spoken word", it may not just be because that's part of their (pop) culture but also because such spoken word relates to the indigenous Filipino oral tradition of "baligtasan." It's interesting to see how poetic form is supposed to reflect ethnicity. I'm cutnpasting a press release below about my new book, for (yeah) self-promo but also because this had been written to target earlier an audience that includes not just poetry/creative writing but also studies encompassing Asian American literature, Filipino literature, postcolonialism, decolonialism, history, multicultural studies, among others. I am partly influenced by paintings to write my poems because it's my way to avoid narrative since narrative reflects (for me) the use of English as a colonizing communications tool for the Philippines. This backdrop need not be known to a reader of my work because, to the extent I can articulate what my Muse is about, I think it's mostly about the ravages of Beauty. Nonetheless, when one reads the poems in my Reproductions book and notices the lack of Filipino ethnic references in the majority of the poems, one obviously shouldn't assume that ethnicity was not a conscious influence (or, que horror, assimilation was a motivation). (And since I find myself pitching, if you wish a review or exam copy, just lemme know....) Anyway, Eileen p.s. (Susan: I had very much doubted you'd have used the word "Oriental"....) ================ REPRODUCTIONS OF THE EMPTY FLAGPOLE Poems By Eileen R. Tabios Release Date: November 2002 Media Contact: Jane Augustine, (212) 533-1928 www.MarshHawkPress.org Reproductions of the Empty Flagpole is full of lovely, surprising conjunctions: "the sound of fireflies mating, the thin sliver of a distant moon, ... no premonition for such blinding light." --Arthur Sze Marsh Hawk Press is pleased to announce the publication of a selected prose poem collection (1996-2002) by Eileen R. Tabios entitled REPRODUCTIONS OF THE EMPTY FLAGPOLE. This is the first U.S.-published poetry book by Ms. Tabios who is a recipient of the Philippines' National Book Award for Poetry. REPRODUCTIONS's primary influence is the inspiration provided by a wide variety of art works, ranging over ancient Greek art to abstract expressionism to contemporary minimalist sculpture. Ms. Tabios combines ekphrasis with a postcolonial sensibility informed by writing in English as a language once used to help colonize her birthland, the Philippines. In addition, Ms. Tabios' approach incorporates her interest in re-imagining Identity to reflect her location in the Philippine diaspora. REPRODUCTIONS offers a compelling introduction of Ms. Tabios' poetry to an American audience. Ms. Tabios has written three poetry collections previously published in the Philippines. While Ms. Tabios' poems are widely published in a variety of U.S. journals and publications, REPRODUCTIONS offers a comprehensive compilation of her poems. In the United States, Ms. Tabios also has been praised for her work as an essayist and editor through such books as Black Lightning (Asian American Writers Workshop/Temple University, 1998), recipient of a Witter Bynner Poetry Grant and a PEN Open Book Selection; The Anchored Angel: Selected Writings of Jose Garcia Villa (Kaya, 2000), recipient of a PEN/Oakland Josephine Miles National Literary Award; and Babaylan: An Anthology of Filipina and Filipina American Writers (Aunt Lute Press, 2000), recipient of a National Endowment of the Arts Grant. The former editor of The Asian Pacific American Journal, Ms. Tabios is also the poetry editor for "Galatea Speaks," an imprint of Kaya Press as well as the forthcoming anthology, Screaming Monkeys (Coffeehouse) which will critique images of Asian America. Most recently, Ms. Tabios received (with Summi Kaipa) a 2002 Potrero Nuevo Fund Prize, a program of the Potrero Nuevo Fund and administered by New Langton Arts that awards $12,500 to Bay Area (CA) artists whose community based works promote consciousness of the local urban ecology. The intellectual layers underlying REPRODUCTIONS make the book appropriate as a text for studies encompassing a variety of disciplines. While obviously fitting for poetry and creative writing courses, REPRODUCTIONS also fits studies addressing Asian American literature, Filipino literature, postcolonialism, decolonialism, history, multicultural studies, among others. In combining ekphrasis with decolonialism concerns, Ms. Tabios offers poems unusual in their approach and content. Her path is summarized in one of the epigraphs to her book, when she quotes Buddha for having said: Don't take my word for this. Put no head above your own. Have your own experience. REPRODUCTIONS has received the following advance words: Her poems allow our minds to be excited twice, by the psychological and artistic reference points from which the words zoom-out like handpicked bees from a hive, and by the vivid hum of the poems themselves demonstrating a captivating, utterly original imagination. In her lines, which are at once strict and sensual, Eileen Tabios inserts stingers barbed with wit and political incisiveness. The crisp, almost scientific clarity of her syntax is relentlessly undermined by fabulous leaps from sentence to sentence, by paradox, radical juxtaposition, lurking sexual innuendo, and unpredictable narrative swerve. Hers is a poetics of social and cultural interrogation in which she succeeds in uniting what she would call "the convex with the concave." _Reproductions of the Empty Flagpole_ will stand you straight up. --Forrest Gander How often do you come across language so lavishly expansive that any description you can think of seems laughably one-sided? Better just to slap a warning label on it: "Danger: Contents combustible on contact with reading. Includes poems so fired up they'll sear your fingerprints off as you feel your way through them (instant identity loss). Others brilliant enough to burn after images into your retina. Handle recklessly if at all." --Barry Schwabsky "And what is seeing?" asks Eileen Tabios, in this volume of prose meditations on travel, eros, art, and innumerable other subjects, objects. Tabios' answers--her seeings--come out of an amazing range of references, from Buddha to Salman Rushdie to Anais Nin to Anne Truitt to a nameless investment banker; from the Ancients to the Romantics to the Moderns and back again; from the Philippines, as from the United States. Through it all, reader and writer find themselves "losing uncertainty" through Tabios' "eroticized history," which earns its final exclamation, "worthy is the price: Yes!" --Susan M. Schultz Much of Eileen Tabios' poetry hits us right in the gut. Or should we say groin, since it is at once scintillating, skittish and seductive. Primal in its experimentation, fugitive in its tactile manipulation of recalcitrance and romance, ultimately there blooms a hardcore quality to her corpus' radical engagements. None of the formulaic ploys is on show here; rather a robust desire to attach, if so subtly, vivid back stories that pique and shape our palpable interest with full-bodied allure. The uniformly sensuous appeal of her wide-ranging work -- from the lyric to the exegesic, to the imperial prose units -- is served by no less than either a canny courtesan or a come-hither voluptuary. Or both. Universally is she betrothed. --Alfred Yuson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:56:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald Hall - "O Cheese" Vivian Shipley - "A Verb from the Earth" - orgasmic about basil - appeared in AMERICAN SCHOLAR a year or so ago, but don't have the date. Happy tasting, C ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:11:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: FOOD & POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit weak Voice song you are drinking nothing but tears &c samsara congeries | book one: RAW. SWAY. ALOUD | mIEKAL aND ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:51:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sun births MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sun births yes, there's a foregrounded torus; it remains consistent with the camera. it reflects only the nearby lamps; everything is cauterized in mid-atmosphere. the torus will move, slowly, against all odds. globes of light, sparks, emanations, appear from two helical sources; they shape themselves in parabolic arcs; at times they appear exhausted and almost inert. they are ignorant of the truth of their convention. the sources move towards the camera, as if burning the world from serious sparklers. invisible, glass the density of airless air. the pulverized object flies among them; skin with originary wound; genital; cotton. its back is turned. the sky is blue and black and full of stars. _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:51:32 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: francis ponge In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't but one of my running projects is translating L'Histooire d'Un e Figue www.sporkworld.org/fig. Unfortunately, I just did two versuions of it. (The book is a study of how a poem was written as a series of revisions, and I am doing a series of translations of all the revisions, except that I stopped afterf the secind revision due to a million other pressing projects....). Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of K.Angelo Hehir Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 8:03 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: francis ponge hi, can anyone point me to any interesting Ponge web sites? thanks, kevin -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The point of g music or writing or any other art, as I see it, is to achieve the uniqueness you describe. Django, Armstrong, Coltrane...you could always tell who they were in the first measure they played. That's the way I like it. Everything Django played after the melody was improvised, using the tune's harmonic structure as a base. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 1:24 PM Subject: Re: music > There are two musicians who just stop the world for me and make me smile: > Louis Armstrong | Django Reinhardt > > And, in many ways, they have similar temperaments for me. Both have that > old world sound that is completely contemporary. Django is called the > "gypsy guitarist," who with played Stephane Grappelli for much of his life. > Django died of a stroke in the mid 1950s. He was a big drinker / bon vivant > who was unreliable. He was known for missing gigs and being "free > spirited," and you can hear it in his, what sound to me, improvisatory > swing numbers. But, when I use the word swing, I do not mean Glenn Miller > Orchestra WWII American swing. I mean a more open and less defined European > gypsy swing in which one can hear a faint echo of klezmer and a loud > pronouncement of Django's smile as he created a magnificent guitar sound. > His sound is unlike anything else I've ever heard or, say, something that > is only his like Coltrane's sound is only his, like Miles' sound is only > his, like Louis's sound is only his, like Billie Holiday, etc. etc. > > > Behrle -- DEBASER!!! (need to pick up the purple tape) > > > --Ak > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Music Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Aaron, I'm not sure if you can get much of the stuff I'm gonna list at Borders or even Tower's World Music store in Manhattan, but I'm looking up some URLs where you can hear some of it at least. You can also buy CDs in at some of these sites--though they're more expensive that way (I get them in bodegas & tiny neighborhood stores in Brooklyn & Queens where they're sometimes as low as $2.50; online they're usually about $12). This weekend I picked up Dava Gjergji's "S'jam fajtor se jam shqiptar" and Motrat Mustafa's "Per Ju ge e doni kengen shqipe" at the Albanian bodega on Church Avenue (Brooklyn). You can hear Dava (a different CD, but actually a better one, in fact a *great* one!) at: www.muzikanet.com/dl.shtml scroll down until you find her. (It's alphabetical by first name.) This is a particularly wonderful website because it starts right off with Adelina's "Fuck the Government" from her CD S'JAM SEX BOMBE, which I can assure you the Albanian bodega on Church Avenue does not carry. There's some Motrat Mustafa at: www.geocities.com/ilirm2000/muzike/mmustafa.html http://muzika.albasoul.com/index.php?id=25 and http://muzika.albasoul.com/index.php?id=24 The weekend before I picked up a bunch of Naseebo Lal CDs at the Pakistani music & video place on Coney Island Avenue. It's hard to resist, because she's got more than 100 (I think she's still in her late thirties or early forties), her voice is amazing, every CD is different (usually a single composer per CD), and they're $4 each. Most are labeled simply by volume number (so for instance, one I got this weekend was Volume 5, with music by Wajahat Atre & M. Ashraf, lyrics by Altaf Bajwah). Naseebo is so fucking cool it hurts to listen to her. I didn't really find her best stuff online, but this will give you a taste: http://www.apnahome.net/apnaorg/music/naseebo/ play the second song down, "We TooN WichRan WichRan Karda Ain," which is pretty good. That site also has stuff by Abida Parveen, Noor Jehan & other greats, too. There's some more Naseebo (plus a picture--dig the outstanding purple lipstick) at: http://12.152.236.94/naseebo-lal.htm Also last weekend I went Bay Ridge down Fifth Avenue to get a bunch of new Arabic stuff. I got Ghada Ragab's "Awa'at Bahin," but it's disappointing. She has an *amazing* voice, so it's a Super Bummer when the music sucks. But, then, music is very personal, and others may like it. It can be heard at: http://www.mazika.com/Song.html?Country=Eg&Singer=57&Album=792 I also got a Cheba Nawar tape ... I thought she was Algerian, but the Moroccan woman in the store where I found it said she's Moroccan, which makes sense I guess, considering the particularly Moroccan use of violin and the kind of percussion, which you don't hear (or I haven't heard) in Algerian stuff. Anyway, Nawar's totally fucking amazing--but, unfortunately, I didn't get a single hit on her name through Google. And a Kazim Al Saher CD, "Ba'ad Al Hob," which is EMI, so probably available at Tower, etc. Do people know him? He's the most famous living Iraqi singer, I'm pretty sure, although I think he lives in exile (I read somewhere he was shot at in Iraq, though that was in this awful World Music book that seemed to have some weird bogus info in it). This particular CD is all about Super-obsession Love Songs (forgive this awful translation): "... take me far away from all the people around us ... let's get drunk from love ... make me live ... make me die ... hold me, let your breath turn inside me ... you own every inch of my body." ("Dhomni Ala Sadrak") His most recent stuff is very world-music-y mainstream and (to me) pretty unlistenable, but this is a somewhat older CD, from I think 1995. An earlier, more love-drunk Kazim! Here's a huge website devoted to him: http://www.geocities.com/kazempage/main.htm This is going on too long--but I'm kind of obsessed with this stuff. I also recently got Najwa Karam's "Oyoun Albi" and Asala Nasri's "Ya Sabra Yana"--I've posted stuff about them before, I think. Asala is Syrian, but lives in Egypt, and Najwa I think is pretty much Fairuz's only serious competition, from the mountain city Zahle in Lebanon. While it's true that a number of Algerian singers (Hasni, etc.) have been killed, Najwa has the distinction of having had a fatwa put on her head for supposedly naming her dog after the Prophet. It was untrue, of course--she doesn't have any pets. But, the charge was serious or outlandish enough that I think she's still banned from Jordan and maybe Qatar, too. She's pretty much the favorite of everyone I talk to--even the woman at Rashid's. I can see why, cuz she's got that amazing sometimes husky sometimes femme voice, with the haltingness that drives arabic music aficianados wild. I had Oyoun Albi on tape, but I "needed" it on CD. (It was four dollars--it's a bootleg--at an Algerian bodega on Steinway in Queens, where I also got some Hasni and Nasro.) There's so much of Najwa's stuff on the web you could probably o.d. on her without ever leaving your cubicle. www.najwa-karam.net www.go.to/najwakaram www.musicoflebanon.com/nkaram.htm www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Set/8510 She's another huge star with an EMI contract, so she's got some product at Tower, etc. Okay, I should go now. I didn't really say anything about Asala, but she deserves a whole 271 line post all to herself! Someday ...! Bye for now, Gary _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:05:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: two readings and a new journal: Baffling Combustions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sunday August 18th at Fire and Water Cafe in Northampton, MA 4pm to 6pm The new journal: Baffling Combustions celebrates its first issue with a reading featuring all seven editors: ************** Eric Baus ************************** ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Noah Eli Gordon ^^^^^^^^^^ +++++++ Dorothea Lasky ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Moudry <<<<<<<<<<<<< ******** Travis Nichols *************************** +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Becky Rosen +++++++++++++ ********** Sara Veglahn *************************** Copies of issue one will be available at the reading limited to 50, hand-bound letterpress covers with original monotype print *** Monday August 19th at The Enormous Room in Boston, MA Both Magazine presents: A reading featuring Eric Baus & Noah Eli Gordon Music by DJ HA-HA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: using the music's structure as a vase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain As it happens, I've spent much of the summer turning a house full of LPs, the veritable record of my past listening, into digital files so that I can carry them with me on my travels -- was just finishing up the Alice Coltrane sides when her name turned up here today -- What's been most fun is listening again to nearly forgotten wonders -- like the World Bass Ensemble -- or Sam Rivers's SIZZLE (which does) -- or the incomparable Andrew White -- and lots of jazz sides that have never reappeared on CD --- and then there's that very first Jayne Cortez poetry LP -- beautiful -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Poetic Assimilation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nice to read a firm voice on this assimilation thing here, Aldon. I think there's probably a much better term but i can't think of it offhand. I see it more as an enrichment process. i was thinking of this as I walked through my nighborhood this morning. It's a somewhat decling and 'older' section of town (if 5 to 10 years is old) that's been surrounded by new subdivisions. In any case the ethnic mix is quite diverse and I feel I can breathe here. I think the same can happen poetically if we relax and allow it to flourish rahter than separating out the pieces. I'd be more comfortable discussing Myong Mi Kim as a poet rather than as a __________ poet? Your comment about Nielsen was of special interest to me as my former wife is someone who had her name changed from Nelson to Nielsen (and nobody can ever get this right) as part of her rebellion long ago against her family which had even longer ago become Nelsons to fit in with what they felt was the dominant ethos of Wisconsin around where Niedecker lived. tom bell (bland, isn't it?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 22:42:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim In-Reply-To: <44.241ccbce.2a858681@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > >Hi Mark, > >I was reversing Pound's quote. Pound wasn't quoting. He actually said the remark on his own. -- George Bowering Sox blow it again. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:12:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Bowie events in San Francisco Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" If you're going to be in San Francisco this week or this month have we got a treat for you (that is, if you like David Bowie). Due to Bowie's visit here this week we are launching a multi-media tribute to him! Rex Ray has organized a giant art show "Fascination" which opens on Thursday (Aug 15) and closes September 30. As it happens the opening is on Thursday at 6 p.m. (from 6 to 9). It's at Gallery 16 (1616 Sixteenth Street--in the Mission). Tons of local and international artists responding to Bowie's work. There's also a lavish catalogue, also called "Fascination," with work by all the artists and by the following writers (partial list) Rupert Adley, D-L Alvarez, Ben Arnold, Brian C. Bauman, Dodie Bellamy, Norma Cole, Douglas Coupland, Del Ray Cross, Derek Donovan, Phoebe Gloeckner, Ann Magnuson, Rick Moody (recently cited by THE NEW REPUBLIC as the "worst writer of his generation"!), Alvin Orloff, Brian Pera, Amy Scholder, Wayne Smith, Brian Kim Stefans, Brandon Stosuy, and Michelle Tea. Inside the catalogue is tucked a CD in which local and international experimental music ensembles re-do Bowie's historical 70s LP "LOW," track by track in a 2002 style. There's a very handsome web-site, still under construction, that details all these events. Go to www.thebowieshow.com and check it all out. Finally if you're still with us, Wayne Smith and I are writing a pageant of David Bowie's life, called "FASCINATION." which will be presented one night only, Friday September 6, at the LAB. This pageant will be acted out by a group of Bay Area poets, painters, musicians, film-makers and artists. It is roughly modelled on the pageant Virginia Woolf writes about in "BETWEEN the ACTS." I get to play Angie. More about this later but please do yourself a favor and go to see "FASCINATION." -- Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 23:19:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: music In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20020812123235.03878b30@mail.verizon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've been listening to lots of David Bowie and also "Love at First Sight" from FEVER (Kylie Minogue). The new SCOOBY-DOO soundtrack also has a great song by Kylie Minogue recorded during LIGHT YEARS sessions and only released now it's called "Whenever You Feel Like It." One of Dodie's students loaned her a CD of the "LANGLEY SCHOOL MUSIC PROJECT/Innocence and Despair" from the 70s, been listening to that, it's super and I will be reviewing this for forthcoming issue of SHUFFLE BOIL. Also, "ABBA Gold Greatest Hits" and LULU, "Together" (Duets album UK import). Yeepee, what a great summer in my head!!! Almost makes up for the loss of Myung Mi Kim to SUNY Buffalo! Oh well as Abba says, "The gods they roll the dice, their minds cold as ice, and someone way down here--loses someone dear." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:24:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: using the music's structure as a vase In-Reply-To: <200208130452.AAA26919@webmail6.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >and then there's that very first Jayne Cortez poetry LP -- beautiful -- Is that the disc with Festivals & Funerals on it? I still think of that piece a couple of times a week. -- Herb Levy Mappings: new music in RealAudio P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm mappings@antennaradio.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:10:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: chorus of america MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII chorus of america yes, there's a foregrounded torus; it remains consistent with the camera. reflects only nearby lamps; everything is cauterized in mid-atmosphere. writing matter? i sit on chair naked, nikuko sits she says, want show wounds of america, occupies takes over, tongue's own, no control bite nikuko's your mouth fire . it's filled wire torus will move, slowly, against all odds. globes light, sparks, emanations, appear from two helical sources; they shape themselves parabolic arcs; at times exhausted and almost inert. are ignorant truth their convention. writing matter? i sit on chair naked, nikuko sits she says, want show wounds of america, occupies takes over, tongue's own, no control bite nikuko's your mouth fire . it's filled wire sources move towards camera, as if burning world serious sparklers. invisible, glass density airless air. writing matter? i sit on chair naked, nikuko sits she says, want show wounds of america, occupies takes over, tongue's own, no control bite nikuko's your mouth fire . it's filled wire pulverized object flies among them; skin originary wound; genital; cotton. its back turned. sky blue black full stars. _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: The People Instruments by Amy King MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The People Instruments by Amy King 2001-02 co-winner of Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Award 40 pages, 70's style cover her first collection! ISBN 1-886350-56-6 $6 postage-paid direct from publisher or this & Add Musk Here by John Bradley both for $10 Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA >From the collection: _________________ Will You Be Suspect Someone might arrive soon accompanied with the need to sit or stand, hushing the crowd in all its distractions: the mouthing, throat clearings, whole stares riddled in and exhaling expectations— which brings us to, who comes close to you? After all, sex is witness even where exception leveled an island and became the center of a town. On my roof stands a girl just like me looking at her own lost city imagining another version nearly. Except I also throw circus flyers at your feet. _________________ Once in France In the middle of Notre Dame, I disappeared. I forgot to remember myself, to propel myself as though vastness and structure could undo the beginnings of sight. I awoke last night and could not place the universe. No scent, lamp, person beside me hummed into memory whispering some familiar tune. I stumbled to the street below and answered the payphone. The voice of France offered help not in French, “The arches are supports of earlier churches; the universe is a feat in motion. The scents and the lamp applaud direction undesignated. You are plus one contingent in this cycle of spaces— you may remain on the line, dial a number or supplement the person you left behind. These are but a few in a segue of options.” Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:22:26 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Add Musk Here by John Bradley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Add Musk Here by John Bradley 2001-02 co-winner of Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Award 32 pages, 70's style cover These parables first appeared in: Arsenic Lobster, Calapooya, Caliban, The Diagram. Rhino, Nobody Out There Looking for Us: A Prose Poem Anthology, edited by Ray Gonzalez, Tupelo Press, and others. ISBN 1-886350-55-8 The funniest book our press has released thus far! $6 postage-paid direct from publisher or this & The People Instruments by Amy King both for $10 Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA >From Add Musk Here: _________________ Jared Fogle Lost 245 Lbs. Parable There he was on national tv, Jared Fogle, claiming it was him, not the shed poundage, who was the real Jared Fogle. Whenever I smell mendacity,I get hungry. Those were the shed poundage’s first words. Last seen wearing one black shoe and one brown shoe, armed and slightly dangerous. You can ask Zena, who used to be Serena, until I bought her the Vegas showgirl costume. She took the job at the Indian casino and that was that. Because no one is immune from the verb to shed pounds while you sleep. What did she leave me with? The empty gerbil cage, a jar of jalapeno mustard, a Bipolar-Barbie, with male and female genitalia. Back when she was Serena, we used to make love on the roof, though the roof may say I was a part-time custodian who believed every day was Sunday, the one day we could make love, because rapture, said Serena, creates an electrical charge that builds up in the joints and causes premature arthritis. What’s Swiss cheese without the holes, says Zena, who’s technically no longer my girlfriend but technically bound to both Jareds and me through the shared blood transfusion. As soon as I saw him on the tv commercial stretching out his trouser waist where he and the other Jared used to live, I called Zena and we talked about the time we ate at the Subway and she lost five pounds right before my eyes just from the rigorous machinations of her jaw on the whole wheat sub. I’m ok with it, I said to Zena about Jared the Subway celebrity, because I am ok with it, because what can a tv commercial like that do for you, really, but leave you with a closet full of empty pants. _________________ Parable of the Pony Syndrome Pony, I say to my mother, and then stop, horrified. How could I call my own mother Pony? I can’t apologize, as I don’t want to draw attention to the faux pas. The sun is a byproduct of honey, I tell her, and thus you and I will get sticky if we stay in the sun too long. Is something wrong, Pony? she asks. Tell your Pony. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: do not click here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do not click here http://swiki.hfbk.uni-hamburg.de:8080/mIEKAL/58 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Found-collaborative magnetism Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > I wonder too, if the magnetic found object represents > the visual imagination before it connects with or opens out into the verb= al. > I have had (three-dimensional) found object phases that have segued into = the > written, but I also have (three-dimensional) found objects that have > retained their magnetism for decades and have resolutely defied the verba= l. > And then there are textual found objects--they always seem to speak more > closely to my visual imagination than anything that comes from my so-call= ed > "internal" world. (Karen Kelley ) In his book "The Physics of Immortality"(1992) Frank J. Tipler writes: "Surprisingly, it is even unlikely that the human brain stores the memories of everything that it remembers. Computer science shows such storage to be inefficient. What probably happens is that only part of a memory is stored....In fact, what evidence we have shows that our brains do not store a faithful representation of an experience. Nor do they store an accurate, complete interpretation of an experience. Rather they store only fragments of an interpretation of an experience." (p.237) This may partially explain the literary attraction for the fragment. Found objects represent or reflec= t a kind of remembering. Some of them also appear to induce a contemplative attitude. Ancient Chinese writers employed "scholar's stones" for meditatio= n or inspiration. I've long been interested in collecting certain quotes and aphorisms, a common practice among writers. Fragments and aphorisms like those of Heraclites, Valery, Stein and Kafka hold a particular fascination. Such valued quotations are an excellent example of textual found-collaborative magnetism. Obviously, occasionally certain aphorisms undergo an evolution from loved quotations to proverbs to clich=E9s. Once the= y are clich=E9s the magnetism fails and the fragment may become repellant, whil= e still holding a "grain" of truth (many of Benjamin Franklin's adages are like this). Also, I suspect a lot of modern American writing contains quite a bit of defiance towards the oracular qualities of aphoristic writing (in = a stylistic counter reaction to Emerson, for example). For me, though, such stylistic avoidance of the oracular gives much American writing a fact based, journalistic quality that renders much of it overly conversational o= r chatty. Two of my favorite aphorisms: "God made everything out of nothing, but the nothingness shows through." (Valery) and Kafka: "You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of he world, this is something you are free to do and is in accord with your nature, but perhaps this holding back is the only suffering you might be able to avoid." The magic of such quotations is that they bear repeating. Walter Benjamin, of course, built a= n entire mode of research around quotations in his "Arcades Project." Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:39:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: music... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" right now i'm listening to the long version of loggins & messina's "angry eyes"... the other day it was the cd ~nilsson: greatest hits~... the day before it was merle haggard (~roots~) and the ~down from the mountain~ disc... a week ago it was marilyn crispell (~amaryllis~)... not bad, but i think i prefer listening to "angry eyes"... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:55:13 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: using the music's structure as a vase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is that the one with Ornette Colman's band? If so, could you send me a copy..... I'd be glad to trade something..... backchannel if you want to barter....thanks, chris Herb Levy wrote: > >and then there's that very first Jayne Cortez poetry LP -- beautiful -- > > Is that the disc with Festivals & Funerals on it? I still think of > that piece a couple of times a week. > -- > Herb Levy > Mappings: new music in RealAudio > P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA > http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm > mappings@antennaradio.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:49:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: mailing addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Can anyone backchannel Lydia Davis' mailing or email address to me ? Thanks, Brenda Coultas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:04:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Fw: James Kopta 1972 - 2002 Comments: To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We loved him and his work. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Marc A - Wow Cool=20 To: tiena@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 5:51 PM Subject: James Kopta 1972 - 2002 James Kopta, 1972-2002 Local arts community mourns the loss of James Kopta: Musician, author, = and sculptor born and raised in the capital district. James' body was found Saturday afternoon in the Mohawk River in = Half-moon near the Crescent bridge. Cause of death is currently under = investigation. Police are trying to put together a timeline of where Jim = was between 6:30pm Friday night and early Saturday. If anyone spoke to = him by phone or saw him in person between this time or even within the = last week of his life, call the New York State Police in Clifton Park at = (518) 383-8583. James' work included: - Instrumentalist and songwriter for local bands including Brown Cuts = Neighbors, Exploding Corpse Action, Hail Mary, Frank Budgen. An = accomplished guitarist, pianist and composer, he released several = records, CDs and cassettes and performed all over the country.=20 - James was a prime moving force behind the art and music collective = Department of Experimental Services. - Co-producer of videos shown in festivals and galleries, locally and = internationally. - Sculptural welder who created his own figurative works as well as = working with artists George Rickie and Larry Kagan. - Author of numerous short stories, collected in the books "All of it's = a Turkey Shoot" and "The Pipe Fitter's Companion". - He was an active researcher into areas as diverse as biochemistry and = the decoding of James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake. Those wishing to share thoughts about James may do so on a message board = at: http://wowcool.com/james=20 S or email us privately at: budgen@wowcool.com In the coming weeks, more information will posted on the site including = mp3's of his music, short stories and other works he produced. To see = and hear examples of his work go to the main DeptEx page at: = http://wowcool.com/deptex. Anyone with photos, music, drawings, etc, by = James: please send a copy if possible to... DeptEx, 51 3rd st., Troy NY, 12180. We'll return all items ASAP. Anyone familiar with his work can testify that he had a rare, = distinctive talent and style. Local bands cover his songs, friends trade = CDRs of his music, and his video work with the group Brown Cuts = Neighbors has been excerpted and remixed by a number of video artists in = the Capital Region. He was a quiet, unassuming presence in the Arts = community who affected a great number of people with the intense = sincerity and passion he put into his creative work.=20 A wake will occur between this Wednesday night and Thursday night. As = soon as a time and place is decided, it will be posted on the DeptEx = site and another announcement will go out. A performance/jam = session/party in his memory will occur on a forthcoming date. Jason Martin & Marc Arsenault Viewing: Wednesday August 14 Emerick Funeral Home=20 1550 Rte. 9 Clifton Park, NY 371-5454 Wednesday 2-4pm closed casket - non-public Wednesday 7-9pm open casket - public Ceremony: Thursday 11am=20 Starts at Emerick Burial at Jonesville Cemetary Directions to cemetary: exit 10 on Northway, take left over Northway, = stop sign, quick left, and left.=20 Sorry if you received duplicates of this message, or if this was the = first place you got the news. J & M Department of Experimental Services http://www.deptex.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:06:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: music... In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 8/13/02 8:39 AM, Joe Amato at joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU wrote: > > the other day it was the cd ~nilsson: greatest hits~... > its nice others enjoy one of the funniest writer from the 70's.. right now, I have an on going repeat theme of "Aria" from Glass's "Einstein on the beach", (the orginal), Morton Suotnick's -"Andromada Strain" one of the best and first sysithised sound tracks..if any one sees it on CD, let me know...I had to burn mine since the record was well,, wearing thin, and a stand fair of Soft Machine (not the new relase - how is that anyways) and the sound track to "Henry Fool, by Hal Hartley.. who I think is brillant.. and does some of the best orginal sound tracks... maybe not on the same level as Herrmann and Thomson, but close... kari ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:51:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know that it's Ornette's band. I'm not familiar with the = specific album, but generally Cortez use her and Ornette's son, Denardo, as = drummer. She's used Bern Nix as guitarist, and Jamaladeen Tacuma on electric bass = a number of times. Some of them have played in Prime Time. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:05:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: music... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" kari, i love hal hartley too, music and film, in fact just caught ~no such thing~ the other night, a typically provocative hartley offering... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:12:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: music... In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit yes, I just saw "no such thing" the other night also.... funny and touching... not equal to "Henry Fool" but still wonderful kari on 8/13/02 10:05 AM, Joe Amato at joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU wrote: > kari, i love hal hartley too, music and film, in fact just caught ~no > such thing~ the other night, a typically provocative hartley > offering... > > best, > > joe > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:22:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: Re: Bowie events in San Francisco In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Kevin and friends, please send information on how to obtain a copy of the catalog -- Bowie's "Low" is one of my favorite LPs -- will this be released later or separately? I was somewhat disappoined with heathen, which lacked what his more techno inspired albums have offered..and i loved him with P Diddy in "american dream" from training day soundtrack. also in heavy rotation: cornelius, kahimi karie, momus, buffalo daughter, towa tei, prince, george clinton and "funky lagos" (an amazing anthology of nigerian "funk" from the 70s) -- a staple since i found it almost a year ago hey you seem to be on a Kylie Minogue kick , if you haven't heard her on "GBI: German Bold Italic" (Towa Tei) you might want to give that a listen. If this is what she has been doing these last few years, it isn't any surprise that MTV was slow to catch on. jk >If you're going to be in San Francisco this week or this month have >we got a treat for you (that is, if you like David Bowie). -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:30:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Music In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i seemed to remember some Yoko Ono talk on this list a while ago, so i wanted to pass on (reiterate?) some music recommendations there: (catch my essay on Yoko Ono and Eminem on-line soon at www.lapetitezine.org) her first LP "Plastic Ono Band" is pretty much classic Yoko: strange soundscapes, found sound, noise, but with incredible musicians: John and Ringo play on all the tracks--Eric Clapton and Ornette Coleman play on some of the others--it has a really weird "bonus track" on the CD that you should skip unless you're harsh into Yoko's weird, weird sound-work. which leads me to "Fly", a double-album, wildly inventive, strange, even unpleasant. this is the album that people usually associate with Yoko when they parody her. still, the vocal style has its cultural roots, is very improvisatory, and god, fun to sing karaoke to in the shower! the second disc of the album is made with completely automated instruments "played by turning knobs, dials only, etc." in Yoko's middle period she made mostly conventional pop records, which if you like Bjork, you will probably like a lot. the best are 'A Story' originally made during her long separation from John, and then shelved upon their reconciliation, and 'Season of Glass,' a classic, made only a couple of months after John's murder, and produced by Phil Spector--includes an eery bonus track: Yoko singing one of the songs into a tape recorder the night John died-- she made some very conventional records in the eighties...they're okay if you like her other stuff, and then stopped making music for a long time. she came back in 1995 with what i think is her best album, called "Rising," and strangely no longer available--but it's mostly harder-edged, back to the avant-garde-punk feel of the Plastic Ono Band LP--the album that came out last year "Blueprint for a Sunrise" is also good--a little less drama, a little more fun-- the collaborative LP's she did with John are pretty skippable--either too conventional (the later ones) or too too too weird (the early ones)--although "Kiss Kiss Kiss" from "Double Fantasy"--for which she won the grammy--yes indeed, Yoko won a grammy for album of the year--is currently making the rounds of clubs in it's new "club version"-- ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:36:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: music... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" What a strange thing to be posting about. But I've been listening to soundtracks lately--Cat People (1982), with the best version of Bowies "Putting Out Fire," and the Giorgio Moroder weirdness, which is more appealing now than when the album first came out. I listened to it compulsively when I was writing my last serial poem "Reptilicus," a horror sci-fi extravaganza that drove me to switching to prose. Also listening to the Lantana soundtrack, which Kevin ordered for me from Australia. We played it recently when we had Taylor Brady and Tanya Hollis over for dinner. Never before did pasta feel so dramatic. In the car, it's Space Oddity. Can keep only one CD in the car at a time, left in the CD player, with its front removed. Any more will invariably get stolen, even without their cases, especially if the car is parked on the block we live on. City life. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:39:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Found-collaborative magnetism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for this, Nick. Quotes usually come from published writing; e.g., publishers have control over what gets into the vernacular, thus who becomes famous enough to be quoted. "Grudge not the beloved ghosts their resurrection, nor yourself communion with them." Paul Hindermith. With the Internet, however, this is changing, and the names of those quoted may not be generally known. Call it, the democratization of the found. -Joel Weishaus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Piombino" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:25 AM Subject: Found-collaborative magnetism > > I wonder too, if the magnetic found object represents > > the visual imagination before it connects with or opens out into the verbal. > > I have had (three-dimensional) found object phases that have segued into the > > written, but I also have (three-dimensional) found objects that have > > retained their magnetism for decades and have resolutely defied the verbal. > > And then there are textual found objects--they always seem to speak more > > closely to my visual imagination than anything that comes from my so-called > > "internal" world. > (Karen Kelley ) > > In his book "The Physics of Immortality"(1992) Frank J. Tipler writes: > "Surprisingly, it is even unlikely that the human brain stores the memories > of everything that it remembers. Computer science shows such storage to be > inefficient. What probably happens is that only part of a memory is > stored....In fact, what evidence we have shows that our brains do not store > a faithful representation of an experience. Nor do they store an accurate, > complete interpretation of an experience. Rather they store only fragments > of an interpretation of an experience." (p.237) This may partially explain > the literary attraction for the fragment. Found objects represent or reflect > a kind of remembering. Some of them also appear to induce a contemplative > attitude. Ancient Chinese writers employed "scholar's stones" for meditation > or inspiration. I've long been interested in collecting certain quotes and > aphorisms, a common practice among writers. Fragments and aphorisms like > those of Heraclites, Valery, Stein and Kafka hold a particular fascination. > Such valued quotations are an excellent example of textual > found-collaborative magnetism. Obviously, occasionally certain aphorisms > undergo an evolution from loved quotations to proverbs to clichés. Once they > are clichés the magnetism fails and the fragment may become repellant, while > still holding a "grain" of truth (many of Benjamin Franklin's adages are > like this). Also, I suspect a lot of modern American writing contains quite > a bit of defiance towards the oracular qualities of aphoristic writing (in a > stylistic counter reaction to Emerson, for example). For me, though, such > stylistic avoidance of the oracular gives much American writing a fact > based, journalistic quality that renders much of it overly conversational or > chatty. Two of my favorite aphorisms: "God made everything out of nothing, > but the nothingness shows through." (Valery) and Kafka: "You can hold > yourself back from the sufferings of he world, this is something you are > free to do and is in accord with your nature, but perhaps this holding back > is the only suffering you might be able to avoid." The magic of such > quotations is that they bear repeating. Walter Benjamin, of course, built an > entire mode of research around quotations in his "Arcades Project." > > Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:17:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Music In-Reply-To: <20020813173059.92043.qmail@web21411.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Listening to radio -- France-culture (over the net) a series of long leisurely programs on Tuareg music, recording some of it with Total Recorder. (An interesting, though not fabulous cd is MUSIC OF THE TUAREGS, Chant du Monde LDX 274974) (( & many thanks to Gary for his post -- I love the range of that Arab music -- & may I recommend Houria Aïchi, Chants Scares d'Algeria, Khalwa 7243 5 45484 2 0, one of the most moving voices, from the Aures mountains -- thus Chaoui Berber)) still relistening to the 2 Tom Waits & the last Bobby D, a great pleasure. but right now primarily stuck into Harrison Birtwistle's PULSE SHADOWS (mediations on Paul Celan for Soprano, String Quartet and Ensemble)Teldec 3984-26867-2. Like the songs very much (some of those date & can be found on older cd/s such as SECRET THEATRE) but not yet sure if the movements for string quartet that interleaf with the songs work to make the whole cohere. plus a Pierre Boulez cd with severtal works of his from the 90ies I was not familiar with, called SUR INCISES (DG 289 463 475-2). Boulez always makes me sit up and listen & think. It's not everyone's cup of tea or joe but I've always been extremely fond of him & Brian Ferneyhough. so there. 2 inneresting cds in from France. Enzo Cormann (voice) and Jean-Marc Padovani (saxes) do Kerouac: CHORUS (various choruses from Mexico City Blues as trans,mopgrified into French by yours truly) and MER (BASED on BIG SUR); they come via a small outfit called Escotatz! that used to do a beat-oid poetry magazine called Starscrewer run by Bernard Froidefond. They can be obtained from Bernard froidefond at: BP 8 / 24590 Salignac / FRANCE. or you can contact him by email: b.froidefond@wanadoo.fr. A must for kerouac buffs! & then of course I listen nearly daily to some Stebe Lacy (& I cld kick myself because last week he played in NYC & we missed him, ugh -- though the good news is that he just this month moved back tot the States & is now living & teaching in Boston, so one shld be able to catch much more of him hereabouts, I mean statesides geenrally) Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:33:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Music In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit my internal copy-editor-cum-proofist says: "Chants Scares d'Algeria" should of course be "Chants Sacrés d'Algerie" -- but then there has always been an odd short-circuiting in my brain-to-hand coordination around the sacred/scared(as in"scar-ed")/scared (as in "scare-d")words. -- p ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Pierre Joris > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 2:18 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Music > > > Listening to radio -- France-culture (over the net) a series of long > leisurely programs on Tuareg music, recording some of it with Total > Recorder. (An interesting, though not fabulous cd is MUSIC OF THE TUAREGS, > Chant du Monde LDX 274974) > > (( & many thanks to Gary for his post -- I love the range > of that Arab > music -- & may I recommend Houria Aïchi, Chants Scares d'Algeria, Khalwa > 7243 5 45484 2 0, one of the most moving voices, from the Aures > mountains -- > thus Chaoui Berber)) > > still relistening to the 2 Tom Waits & the last Bobby D, > a great pleasure. > > but right now primarily stuck into Harrison Birtwistle's > PULSE SHADOWS > (mediations on Paul Celan for Soprano, String Quartet and Ensemble)Teldec > 3984-26867-2. Like the songs very much (some of those date & can > be found on > older cd/s such as SECRET THEATRE) but not yet sure if the movements for > string quartet that interleaf with the songs work to make the > whole cohere. > > plus a Pierre Boulez cd with severtal works of his from > the 90ies I was not > familiar with, called SUR INCISES (DG 289 463 475-2). Boulez > always makes me > sit up and listen & think. It's not everyone's cup of tea or joe but I've > always been extremely fond of him & Brian Ferneyhough. so there. > > 2 inneresting cds in from France. Enzo Cormann (voice) > and Jean-Marc > Padovani (saxes) do Kerouac: CHORUS (various choruses from Mexico > City Blues > as trans,mopgrified into French by yours truly) and MER (BASED on > BIG SUR); > they come via a small outfit called Escotatz! that used to do a beat-oid > poetry magazine called Starscrewer run by Bernard Froidefond. They can be > obtained from Bernard froidefond at: BP 8 / 24590 Salignac / > FRANCE. or you > can contact him by email: b.froidefond@wanadoo.fr. A must for > kerouac buffs! > > & then of course I listen nearly daily to some Stebe Lacy > (& I cld kick > myself because last week he played in NYC & we missed him, ugh -- > though the > good news is that he just this month moved back tot the States & is now > living & teaching in Boston, so one shld be able to catch much more of him > hereabouts, I mean statesides geenrally) > > Pierre > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 6 Madison Place > Albany NY 12202 > Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon > Fax: (518) 426-3722 > Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly > Email: joris@albany.edu > Url: > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: music... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. why? 2. off-topic? 3. undeserving? 4. enormous? 5. relevant? 6. where does poetry end & music start? mIEKAL Dodie Bellamy wrote: > What a strange thing to be posting about. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: music... In-Reply-To: <3D595270.C63905AA@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, mIEKAL aND wrote: > 1. why? > 2. off-topic? > 3. undeserving? > 4. enormous? > 5. relevant? > 6. where does poetry end & music start? > > 1. because it's more interesting than railing against academic hegemony 2. no 3. no; it's tipping me off to all kinds of CDs I need to get when I have money again 4. yes 5. yes 6. see Zukofsky, or, for that matter, Emily "Ballad Stanza" Dickinson Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:55:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: Music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> in Yoko's middle period she made mostly conventional pop records, which if you like Bjork, you will probably like a lot. the best are 'A Story' originally made during her long separation from John, and then shelved upon their reconciliation, and 'Season of Glass,' a classic, << Actually my all-time Yoko favorite is from this middle period: "Approximately Infinite Universe" (1972). It does have a typical early-seventies pop-rock feel (not a bad thing, in my opinion), but it's also wacky and gorgeous, and (a double album) quite wide in scope...highlights include "I Felt Like Smashing My Head Through a Clear Glass Window" (done in fifties rock'n'roll style) and "What a Bastard the World Is" (a tremulous over-the-top feminist ballad). -- Gwynne Garfinkle hometown.aol.com/gwynnega/gwynne.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:56:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: where does poetry end? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 6. where does poetry end & music start? I try to keep them together as much as possible. When poetry loses its = music, the sound and rhythm flatten out. Even prose should have a = little pulse and tone. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: RIP Jiri Kolar (1914-2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.ubu.com/historical/kolar/kolar1.html Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: where does poetry end? In-Reply-To: <00ad01c242fb$1a3c9e40$1160f30c@S0027338986> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13/8/02 at 2.56p, Vernon Frazer (vfrazer@ATTBI.COM) said: >6. where does poetry end & music start? > >I try to keep them together as much as possible. When poetry loses its music, the sound >and rhythm flatten out. Even prose should have a little pulse and tone. Has anybody out there tried to write lyrics that aren't lyrical? I write great instrumental music (at least *I* think so), but have never had luck writing lyrics. Maybe I'm not approaching the work from the right direction. I've had more luck putting Stein's Stanzas in Meditation to music than writing what could pass as a good folk or pop song. Is it possible to write a pop song that doesn't have a bit of the lyrical in its lyrics? --Tracy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:09:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: music... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think this is fun and fascinating. I have recently decided, with thanks to Steve Almond, who used it as a fiction title, that T-Rex's line "hubcap diamond star halo" is beautiful poetry. And I am knocked out by Joni Mitchell's lyrics on Blue everytime I listen to it, which is almost every day. And the other day I heard "You're So Vain" and I think "I had a dream there were clouds in my coffee" is a great bit of poetry in that song. But what have I BOUGHT lately? The latest Dolly Parton, the White Stripes, an old Donovan thing I had on record but not on CD, the VU's self-titled which I somehow never owned, the new Beth Orton. I am happy to backchannel with anyone who wants to talk music. Love, Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:39:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the animation-anime text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the animation-anime text doctor, i'm working with animation; i place words and sparks engendered surrounding the mouth of nikuko. there's no dialog, only patronage. patronage is the means of control and withdraw; language becomes internalized. nikuko harbors the skein of her own construct; a virtual idol, she inhabits inscription. we all inhabit inscription; everything is coded, flow against the chaotic amanuensis that surrounds us, draws us out. i came to you to place words against the animation-anime; to work through her presence, her dictation. there are no plans, except to fill space and frame to the limit, to comprehend the emissions of nikuko. this is the flood of the text, doctor; you construct tropologies across our own; the flood creates her semblance of the real in relation to everything else, real and virtual, virtual-real. my life tenders nikuko - nikuko has drawn us out - you've been of great help, doctor. _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:42:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: where does poetry end? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Has anybody out there tried to write lyrics that > aren't lyrical? I write great instrumental music > (at least *I* think so), but have never had luck > writing lyrics. Maybe I'm not approaching the work > from the right direction. I've had more luck > putting Stein's Stanzas in Meditation to music than > writing what could pass as a good folk or pop song. > > Is it possible to write a pop song that doesn't have > a bit of the lyrical in its lyrics? you should try listening to some of Yoko's stuff--the lyrics are so weirdly off-rhymed that she's either an awful poet (i don't think that's it), or she's purposely rubbing the words awkwardly against the melodic line i'm not sure that's what you meant-- there's always "Mulberry" off her last album where she grunts, moans, hoots, hollers, croaks, moans, otherwise sings the single world "mulberry". for 11 and a half minutes. fabulous, yes. lyrical? hmm. > > --Tracy ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:45:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: "Pollen" by Peter Jaeger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable a new chapbook from housepress: "Pollen" by Peter Jaeger published in an edition of 70 handbound and numbered copies. $5.00 each Peter Jaeger is the author of several books of poetry including "Leasing = Glass" (Meow Press, 1998), "Bibliodoppler" (Writers Forum, 1998), "Power = Lawn" (Coach House, 1999) and "sub-twang mustard" (housepress, 2000). He = is also the author of "ABC of reading TRG" (Talonbooks, 1999) and = recently returned to Toronto from London. for more information, or to order copies, contact: derek beaulieu derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:48:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Re: Vernon's comment, I'd like to think I've learned a lot about technique -- economy, phrasing, restraint -- from song lyrics, esp. blues and deep country, which are literary art forms after all. Those authorless floating stanzas that populate so much black and white folk music are just endlessly compelling. ("I have a bird to whistle / I have a bird to sing / I have a woman that I'm loving / But she don't mean a thing" -- "Who's that yonder coming up the road? / It looks like Maggie, but she walks too slow" -- "A railroad man will kill you when he can / And drink up your blood like wine" -- "The sun's gonna shine in my backdoor someday" -- "I'm laughing just to keep from crying".) Some things in current/recent rotation -- 1. Woody Guthrie, "Dust Bowl Ballads" ("there ought to be some yodeling in this song / but i can't yodel fer the rattling in my lung") 2. Flying Burrito Brothers, "Farther Along" ("we've got our recruits / in their green mohair suits") 3. Bill Monroe & Doc Watson, "Live Duet Recordings 1963-1980" ("what does the deep sea say? / it moans, it groans, it plashes and it foams / and it rolls on its weary way") 4. Treasury of Library of Congress Field Recordings 1934-1946 ("sea lion woman") 5. Harry Smith Anthology, Vol. 3 "Songs" ("the coo coo is a pretty bird / and she warbles when she flies / but the coo coo never warbles / til the fifth day of july") 6. Townes Van Zandt, "High Low & In Between" ("i'll miss the system here / the bottom's low and the treble's clear") 7. Ralph Stanley and the Clinch Mountain Boys, "Echoes of the Stanley Brothers" ("the darkest hour is just before dawn / the narrow way leads home") 8. Mississippi John Hurt, Masters of Country Blues Guitar ("blues all on the ocean / blues all in the air / i can't stay here no longer / and i have no steamship fare") 9. Songs of the Civil War ("though we seek mirth and beauty and music bright and gay / there are frail forms waiting at the door" [stephen foster]) 10. Emmylou Harris and the Nash Ramblers, "Live at the Ryman Auditorium" (great version of the above) 11. Steve Earle, "Train A'Comin'" ("won't nothin bring you down like your hometown") 12. Blind Willie McTell, "1927-1933 The Early Years" ("feel like a broke down engine, ain't got no drivin wheel") - Damian <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:02:05 +0100 Reply-To: BarbaraThimm@yahoo.co.uk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Barbara=20Thimm?= Subject: Re: where does poetry end? - is poetry necessarily lyrical? In-Reply-To: <20020813204217.95837.qmail@web21408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what about 'concrete poetry'? the 'look' of words *on the page* may certainly also make for poetry. The shifting of meanings and contexts. The barren factuality of technical language. .... Poetry may be lyrical. But is not necessarily so. What makes a prose poem a poem? Barbara __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:20:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: where does poetry end? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I would certainly say, despite the crossbreeding I mentioned before, that song lyrics are HARD to do well, for endemic reasons, no matter what your thematic parameters. There are strong implicit constraints at work, like you can't use too many polysyllables, or you can but if you do you're going to get a very thick texture that's hard to adapt to a melody. You have to watch closely how syllabic patterns are articulated, e.g. Sondheim (not Alan)'s comment that "for a small fee in America" (West Side Story) was the product of a naive lyricist, because the singer's forced to say "for a smafee". And you want something very simple and singable that's also super suggestive ("The silence of a falling star / Lights up the purple sky"). Stein is highly adaptable to music because somehow she was doing all of these things anyway ("sweet sweet sweet tea / susie asado" -- "a saint is easily resisted") -- I guess she must have seen composition largely as a sound patterning activity. Virgil Thomson said that she was easy to compose for because you didn't have to follow the sense, you could just focus on the melody that the words implied. That would be how I would approach "non-lyrical" songwriting, if I understand what you mean. One of my favorites is from the "Pigeons on the Grass" aria in "Four Saints": "Let Lucy Lily Lily Lucy Lucy let Lucy Lucy Lily Lily Lily Lily Lily let Lily Lucy Lucy let Lily: let Lucy Lily." Very interesting to me how it deflects signification, glides around various propositions, and yet on the level of sound is very tight and even predictable, almost a palindrome. - Damian On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:53:28 -0500 Tracy Ruggles wrote: > On 13/8/02 at 2.56p, Vernon Frazer (vfrazer@ATTBI.COM) said: > > >6. where does poetry end & music start? > > > >I try to keep them together as much as possible. When poetry loses its music, the sound > >and rhythm flatten out. Even prose should have a little pulse and tone. > > Has anybody out there tried to write lyrics that aren't lyrical? I write great instrumental music (at least *I* think so), but have never had luck writing lyrics. Maybe I'm not approaching the work from the right direction. I've had more luck putting Stein's Stanzas in Meditation to music than writing what could pass as a good folk or pop song. > > Is it possible to write a pop song that doesn't have a bit of the lyrical in its lyrics? > > --Tracy <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:28:06 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: new from housepress: "Pollen" by Peter Jaeger In-Reply-To: <010e01c2430a$68973870$9fdccecd@housepress> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- derek beaulieu wrote: > a new chapbook from housepress: > > "Pollen" > by Peter Jaeger > > published in an edition of 70 handbound and numbered > copies. > $5.00 each > > Peter Jaeger is the author of several books of > poetry including "Leasing Glass" (Meow Press, 1998), > "Bibliodoppler" (Writers Forum, 1998), "Power Lawn" > (Coach House, 1999) and "sub-twang mustard" > (housepress, 2000). He is also the author of "ABC of > reading TRG" (Talonbooks, 1999) and recently > returned to Toronto from London. > > for more information, or to order copies, contact: > derek beaulieu > derek@housepress.ca ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://digital.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Digital How To - Get the best out of your PC! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:27:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: where does poetry end? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/02 4:42:34 PM, kaajumiah@YAHOO.COM writes: << > Has anybody out there tried to write lyrics that > aren't lyrical? I write great instrumental music > (at least *I* think so), but have never had luck > writing lyrics. Maybe I'm not approaching the work > from the right direction. I've had more luck > putting Stein's Stanzas in Meditation to music than > writing what could pass as a good folk or pop song. > > Is it possible to write a pop song that doesn't have > a bit of the lyrical in its lyrics? you should try listening to some of Yoko's stuff--the lyrics are so weirdly off-rhymed that she's either an awful poet (i don't think that's it), or she's purposely rubbing the words awkwardly against the melodic line i'm not sure that's what you meant-- there's always "Mulberry" off her last album where she grunts, moans, hoots, hollers, croaks, moans, otherwise sings the single world "mulberry". for 11 and a half minutes. fabulous, yes. lyrical? hmm. > > --Tracy >> Tracy, If we mean by lyrical, songlike, then you have your answer. However, another commonplace is that the lyrical emphasizes personal emotion over a mere litany of events. In that case, it is certainly possible to write lyrics that are not lyrical. It's done all the time. I'm not sure how much rhyme schemes, on or off, figure in the difference. I wrote music and lyrics professionally for many years, many years ago, and often avoided the personal focus--though what sold was the lyrical stuff, of course. Lyrics per se may be less the issue than harmonics. Music, even the discordant, or that which foregrounds its mathematics, can still be considered lyrical, though that's often a judgment call. Milton Babbitt as one example. Cage also, but he succeeded in at least potentially banishing the lyrical in 4'33. I say "potentially" because the presence or absence of the lyrical in that piece is contingent upon what's going on in the audience during any given performance. Once the words are informed by music, one has a hybrid thing, so even the most impersonal or abstract language is pressed to song. Yoko Ono's lyrics are pretty lyrical, I'd say. I haven't heard everything she's done. John Lennon's Revolution #9 may be a candidate, but it ain't no pop song. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:29:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: POETS ON THE PEAK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is a very important event, the celebration, it highlights=20 the living relationship of poets and nature, historical and present. I=20 hope it is okay that I have pasted the article about the event as well=20 as the review of the book that brought all this together. A great=20 fellowship of poetry, society and scholarship. Michael=20 By JOEL CONNELLY SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER COLUMNIST NEWHALEM -- Lofty mountains long have served as inspiration to poetry=20 and song, and as setting for solitary contemplation. On Saturday, the=20 North Cascades provided a scene for verse, but on this occasion, the=20 warmth of long-separated friends coming together. A half-century after he hung Buddhist prayer flags from the=20 8,129-foot-high Crater Mountain lookout, Pulitzer Prize-winning poet=20 Gary Snyder made his first visit back to the peaks and people of a river = valley often nicknamed the "magic Skagit." A mountaintop experience "changes peoples' lives" and shapes later=20 thinking, Snyder reflected. He would persuade two other literary=20 figures, Jack Kerouac and Philip Whalen, to come here in the '50s for=20 summers devoted to Zen and the art of forest-fire detection. The two months spent on Desolation Peak in 1956 marked the last period=20 of sobriety in Jack Kerouac's life. "I felt he needed to be alone for a while. ... There had been too much=20 socializing and two much sweet wine," Snyder said of his friend who=20 wrote "On the Road." Difficult to reach, requiring a boat ride up Ross Lake and a=20 4,400-vertical-foot climb, Desolation meant isolation in the 1950s. With = no humans about, Kerouac found compelling company in the nearby twin=20 black towers of 8,080-foot Hozomeen Mountain. "Hozomeen is the Void -- at least Hozomeen means the void in my eyes,"=20 Kerouac wrote. He would stare at it upside-down while doing yoga=20 headstands, which made the mountain appear as "a mess of double-pointed=20 rock/Hanging pouring into space."=20 The lookout has come by a certain popularity in recent years as fans of=20 Kerouac's "Desolation Angels" make pilgrimages to where the noted 1950s=20 non-conformist rolled his cigarettes and wrote his verse. More visitors are likely. The weekend reunion -- staged by North=20 Cascades National Park -- helped celebrate publication of a new book=20 "Poets on the Peaks," a sensitive and beautifully crafted account of=20 those times by Boston-based writer John Suiter. Snyder dedicated his reading to Whalen, who later became a Zen Buddhist=20 priest and abbot. Whalen died June 26 in San Francisco. Snyder did not want for company. From Crater Mountain he could see just=20 two signs of humans' presence on earth -- distant lights from cabins on=20 Sourdough Mountain and Desolation. He was flanked Saturday by the men=20 who lighted those lanterns long ago. They were a "community of lookouts," in the words of Jack Francis, a=20 B-17 gunner who came home from World War II to become a teacher in=20 Bremerton. Francis was atop Desolation in '52, and recalled Saturday how = he was moved to have mercy on mice living in the cabin. On Sourdough was a 19-year-old Native American from Neah Bay, named=20 Schubert Hunter. Now a retired U.S. Forest Service timber worker, Hunter = cradled a great-grandchild, and shyly produced his first poem to mark=20 the 50-year reunion with Snyder. Snyder took the poem, "Hawkeye," from his fellow lookout and read it=20 aloud: "Bald eagle high and nearly out of sight "Can you see the sunrise, clouds colored bright? "Hear the whispers of the wind? "Can you see the river in the valley? "In a world that never ends, can you see the colors of the sunset? "In a world that bids us all goodnight." Looking up, Snyder responded: "That's darned good, Schubert." Later, Snyder read from the ending of his "Myths and Texts," inspired by = a fire far up the Thunder Creek valley that he spotted while manning the = Sourdough lookout in 1953. "The black snag glistens in the rain "& the last wisp of smoke floats up "Into the absolute cold "Into the spiral whorls of fire "The storms of the Milky Way." Snyder was slated to go back to Sourdough in '54, but it was not to be.=20 He was Red-baited off the lookout. As a college student, Snyder had joined the radical Marine Cooks and=20 Stewards Union to get summer work on a Grace Line passenger ship. The=20 association put him on a blacklist, which extended to all federal=20 employees by the second year of the Eisenhower administration. "It just indicated the hysteria of the McCarthy era and how nutty it=20 was," Snyder recalled. The Marine Cooks, he added, was an enlightened=20 outfit with three rules: "No race-baiting, no Red-baiting, no=20 queer-baiting." FBI agents actually appeared in Marblemount to quiz Snyder's fellow=20 employees, an episode recounted in a wickedly funny letter he received=20 from Whalen.=20 Snyder now lives in the foothills of California's Sierra Nevada range.=20 He marveled at how little the upper Skagit country has changed from the=20 mountaintop days when studied Chinese, read Chaucer and watched the=20 Sourdough lookout cabin turn green with St. Elmo's Fire during a=20 lightning storm. Amid the sprawl of Interstate 5 and spread of megastores, the North=20 Cascades stand out as "something that won't be touched." Of course, the unexpected happens even to mountain places. In August 1945, a teenage Snyder climbed the symmetrical 9,677-foot cone = of Mount St. Helens. He came down to learn of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, and=20 predictions that the Japanese city would be a lifeless place for 50=20 years. "I was outraged and shocked," he recalled. "I swore by the purity and=20 eternity of Mount St. Helens that I would fight this scourge forever.=20 Well, Hiroshima is doing just fine ... but Mount St. Helens is far=20 different." High praise for an inspirational chronicle of fire lookout poets Friday, August 2, 02 By ANDREW ENGELSON SPECIAL TO THE POST-INTELLIGENCER Among the craggy peaks of Washington's North Cascades, there are four=20 mountains that attract a curious sort of pilgrim. None of the four peaks = is unusually high, or technically difficult to ascend (although some are = quite remote). Yet each summer, the summits of Sauk Mountain, Crater=20 Mountain, Sourdough Mountain and Desolation Peak attract a few hardy and = bookish hikers.=20 They come to pay homage to three poets who lived and worked as fire=20 lookouts on the mountains in the mid-1950s. What attracts these pilgrims to the mountaintop (myself included -- I've = huffed up both Sourdough and Desolation) is a definitive chapter in the=20 history of both American literature and environmentalism. A magnificent=20 new book, "Poets on the Peaks," tells the story of these three forest=20 lookout poets -- Gary Snyder, Philip Whalen and Jack Kerouac -- in a=20 compelling narrative and luminous photos. A seven-year project of writer and photographer John Suiter, "Poets on=20 the Peaks" documents how the three very different writers were affected=20 by their work as solitary fire spotters for the U.S. Forest Service.=20 Of the three writers profiled in Suiter's book, Kerouac is certainly the = most famous. Hard-living, enthusiastic, obsessed with Buddhism, and=20 constantly high on pharmaceuticals and cheap wine, Kerouac served as a=20 lookout on Desolation Peak in 1956. The author of "On the Road" hoped to = use his time as a fire spotter to write a novel and attain spiritual=20 insight. He was able to do this to some extent, but also found that 63=20 days alone on a remote mountain in the North Cascades nearly unhinged=20 him. Even today, it's a two-hour boat ride up Ross Lake just to reach=20 the trailhead. Kerouac's experiences were what first sparked Suiter's interest in fire=20 lookouts. Suiter, a Boston-based photographer and writer, had previously = shot photo essays on Kerouac's haunts in Lowell, Mass., and Mexico City. = For Suiter, Desolation Peak was at first just another site in the=20 Kerouac story. In 1995, while working on a magazine assignment, Suiter=20 spent two weeks camped at the summit of Desolation. He'd rarely hiked=20 before, and the experience changed him. "It's a magical place," Suiter=20 said. "To be on a mountaintop at dawn -- and everything below is covered = in clouds and ground fog -- and you're in sunlight. It's a celestial=20 experience." Suiter shared the finished magazine article with poet Snyder, who now=20 lives on a rural homestead in Northern California. Snyder gave the piece = his approval but badgered Suiter: "Why didn't you go up my mountain?" he = asked. The question stuck with the photographer, and Suiter soon=20 realized that the story of the fire-watching poets contained enough=20 material to merit a full-length book. "Gary really challenged me to go=20 back to the Cascades," Suiter said. "His input was crucial." Snyder, now in his early 70s, is the preeminent poet of Western North=20 America's mountains. He grew up on the outskirts of Seattle, climbed=20 most of the volcanic peaks of the Cascades in his teens, studied Native=20 American mythology in graduate school and apprenticed as a Zen Buddhist=20 in Japan. A quiet presence in the often noisy "Beat" movement of the=20 late 1950s, Snyder is a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet whose work contains=20 equal measures of spontaneity, Asian poetic forms and a keen awareness=20 of ecology. He eagerly signed up to work as a lookout on Crater Mountain = in 1952 and on Sourdough Mountain in 1953.=20 Unlike Kerouac (whom Snyder talked into serving as a lookout), Snyder=20 thrived in his role as a solitary fire spotter. While Kerouac=20 practically ran off the mountain when his season was up, Snyder left=20 reluctantly. Many of Snyder's published journals and poems (including=20 the recent collection "Mountains and Rivers Without End") refer back to=20 his meditative experience on the peaks.=20 This July, Snyder returned to the Upper Skagit River for the first time=20 in 50 years. During an event in the town of Nehalem, largely organized=20 by Suiter, Snyder and five other former lookouts discussed their years=20 on the peaks. Underneath a large maple fanned by mountain breezes,=20 Snyder read from his lookout poems and paid tribute to Suiter's book,=20 which he said "took us all by surprise." "Poets on the Peaks" was a labor of love for Suiter, who's a meticulous=20 researcher. In addition to camping on all the lookout peaks, Suiter=20 conducted extensive first-person interviews with former fire spotters,=20 including Snyder and Whalen.=20 Whalen, the third poet in Suiter's account, was a lesser-known but=20 accomplished poet in his own right. Whalen wasn't much of an=20 outdoorsman, and took a lookout job to pay off a debt to Snyder, a close = friend. Whalen quickly found the lookout life to be an ideal existence.=20 He worked three summers on Sauk and Sourdough mountains and had ample=20 time for reading, writing, meditating, and nature-gazing. Whalen, who=20 later became an ordained Zen monk, died this June. When Suiter presented = Whalen with a copy of "Poets on the Peaks," the bed-ridden poet, nearly=20 blind, exclaimed, "Ah -- it's wonderfully heavy!" Much of the originality of Suiter's book is the result of efforts to=20 unearth unpublished letters and journals. Particularly rewarding was=20 being allowed to read parts of a legendary journal that Snyder has kept=20 nearly all his life. Snyder hasn't allowed many writers access to his=20 papers and all would-be biographers have been turned away.=20 "We were down at his place in California and drinking fairly late,"=20 Suiter said. "And Gary came over and had in his hand a stack of old=20 leather-bound journals. He said, 'I think you might want to take a look=20 at these.' It was my last night there and I realized that I was going to = be up all night reading them. It was fascinating stuff." So, too, is "Poets on the Peaks," which proves there's more to the=20 history of Washington's mountains than a few crusty miners, loggers and=20 fur trappers. Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:41:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: using the music's structure as a vase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yes -- with Richard Davis on Bass On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 00:24:16 +0000, Herb Levy wrote: > >and then there's that very first Jayne Cortez poetry LP -- beautiful -- > > Is that the disc with Festivals & Funerals on it? I still think of > that piece a couple of times a week. > -- > Herb Levy > Mappings: new music in RealAudio > P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, TX 76147 USA > http://antennaradio.com/mappings/show.htm > mappings@antennaradio.com > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:01:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: POETS ON THE PEAK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Snyder's climb was part of the international Year of Mountains. The United nations had proclaimed 2002 as the International Year of Mountains to increase international awareness of the global importance of mountain ecosystems. Poetry On The Peaks is celebrating the relationship between humanity to nature through poetry by setting up such climbs and readings on as many mountains in the world and corresponding cities. Those of us who have taken part in the program so far this year hope to increase awareness of pressing issues (from over development and acid rain in the Adirondacks to war in Afghanistan) and promote cultural heritage of mountain societies around the world. for more, including all the info on the mountains climbed, the poems read( including Gary Snyder and his poems)...and breaking news about naming a crater on Mercury after Pablo Neruda see: http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain_about.htm All Best, Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Rothenberg" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:29 PM Subject: POETS ON THE PEAK I think this is a very important event, the celebration, it highlights the living relationship of poets and nature, historical and present. I hope it is okay that I have pasted the article about the event as well as the review of the book that brought all this together. A great fellowship of poetry, society and scholarship. Michael By JOEL CONNELLY SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER COLUMNIST NEWHALEM -- Lofty mountains long have served as inspiration to poetry and song, and as setting for solitary contemplation. On Saturday, the North Cascades provided a scene for verse, but on this occasion, the warmth of long-separated friends coming together. A half-century after he hung Buddhist prayer flags from the 8,129-foot-high Crater Mountain lookout, Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Gary Snyder made his first visit back to the peaks and people of a river valley often nicknamed the "magic Skagit." A mountaintop experience "changes peoples' lives" and shapes later thinking, Snyder reflected. He would persuade two other literary figures, Jack Kerouac and Philip Whalen, to come here in the '50s for summers devoted to Zen and the art of forest-fire detection. The two months spent on Desolation Peak in 1956 marked the last period of sobriety in Jack Kerouac's life. "I felt he needed to be alone for a while. ... There had been too much socializing and two much sweet wine," Snyder said of his friend who wrote "On the Road." Difficult to reach, requiring a boat ride up Ross Lake and a 4,400-vertical-foot climb, Desolation meant isolation in the 1950s. With no humans about, Kerouac found compelling company in the nearby twin black towers of 8,080-foot Hozomeen Mountain. "Hozomeen is the Void -- at least Hozomeen means the void in my eyes," Kerouac wrote. He would stare at it upside-down while doing yoga headstands, which made the mountain appear as "a mess of double-pointed rock/Hanging pouring into space." The lookout has come by a certain popularity in recent years as fans of Kerouac's "Desolation Angels" make pilgrimages to where the noted 1950s non-conformist rolled his cigarettes and wrote his verse. More visitors are likely. The weekend reunion -- staged by North Cascades National Park -- helped celebrate publication of a new book "Poets on the Peaks," a sensitive and beautifully crafted account of those times by Boston-based writer John Suiter. Snyder dedicated his reading to Whalen, who later became a Zen Buddhist priest and abbot. Whalen died June 26 in San Francisco. Snyder did not want for company. From Crater Mountain he could see just two signs of humans' presence on earth -- distant lights from cabins on Sourdough Mountain and Desolation. He was flanked Saturday by the men who lighted those lanterns long ago. They were a "community of lookouts," in the words of Jack Francis, a B-17 gunner who came home from World War II to become a teacher in Bremerton. Francis was atop Desolation in '52, and recalled Saturday how he was moved to have mercy on mice living in the cabin. On Sourdough was a 19-year-old Native American from Neah Bay, named Schubert Hunter. Now a retired U.S. Forest Service timber worker, Hunter cradled a great-grandchild, and shyly produced his first poem to mark the 50-year reunion with Snyder. Snyder took the poem, "Hawkeye," from his fellow lookout and read it aloud: "Bald eagle high and nearly out of sight "Can you see the sunrise, clouds colored bright? "Hear the whispers of the wind? "Can you see the river in the valley? "In a world that never ends, can you see the colors of the sunset? "In a world that bids us all goodnight." Looking up, Snyder responded: "That's darned good, Schubert." Later, Snyder read from the ending of his "Myths and Texts," inspired by a fire far up the Thunder Creek valley that he spotted while manning the Sourdough lookout in 1953. "The black snag glistens in the rain "& the last wisp of smoke floats up "Into the absolute cold "Into the spiral whorls of fire "The storms of the Milky Way." Snyder was slated to go back to Sourdough in '54, but it was not to be. He was Red-baited off the lookout. As a college student, Snyder had joined the radical Marine Cooks and Stewards Union to get summer work on a Grace Line passenger ship. The association put him on a blacklist, which extended to all federal employees by the second year of the Eisenhower administration. "It just indicated the hysteria of the McCarthy era and how nutty it was," Snyder recalled. The Marine Cooks, he added, was an enlightened outfit with three rules: "No race-baiting, no Red-baiting, no queer-baiting." FBI agents actually appeared in Marblemount to quiz Snyder's fellow employees, an episode recounted in a wickedly funny letter he received from Whalen. Snyder now lives in the foothills of California's Sierra Nevada range. He marveled at how little the upper Skagit country has changed from the mountaintop days when studied Chinese, read Chaucer and watched the Sourdough lookout cabin turn green with St. Elmo's Fire during a lightning storm. Amid the sprawl of Interstate 5 and spread of megastores, the North Cascades stand out as "something that won't be touched." Of course, the unexpected happens even to mountain places. In August 1945, a teenage Snyder climbed the symmetrical 9,677-foot cone of Mount St. Helens. He came down to learn of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, and predictions that the Japanese city would be a lifeless place for 50 years. "I was outraged and shocked," he recalled. "I swore by the purity and eternity of Mount St. Helens that I would fight this scourge forever. Well, Hiroshima is doing just fine ... but Mount St. Helens is far different." High praise for an inspirational chronicle of fire lookout poets Friday, August 2, 02 By ANDREW ENGELSON SPECIAL TO THE POST-INTELLIGENCER Among the craggy peaks of Washington's North Cascades, there are four mountains that attract a curious sort of pilgrim. None of the four peaks is unusually high, or technically difficult to ascend (although some are quite remote). Yet each summer, the summits of Sauk Mountain, Crater Mountain, Sourdough Mountain and Desolation Peak attract a few hardy and bookish hikers. They come to pay homage to three poets who lived and worked as fire lookouts on the mountains in the mid-1950s. What attracts these pilgrims to the mountaintop (myself included -- I've huffed up both Sourdough and Desolation) is a definitive chapter in the history of both American literature and environmentalism. A magnificent new book, "Poets on the Peaks," tells the story of these three forest lookout poets -- Gary Snyder, Philip Whalen and Jack Kerouac -- in a compelling narrative and luminous photos. A seven-year project of writer and photographer John Suiter, "Poets on the Peaks" documents how the three very different writers were affected by their work as solitary fire spotters for the U.S. Forest Service. Of the three writers profiled in Suiter's book, Kerouac is certainly the most famous. Hard-living, enthusiastic, obsessed with Buddhism, and constantly high on pharmaceuticals and cheap wine, Kerouac served as a lookout on Desolation Peak in 1956. The author of "On the Road" hoped to use his time as a fire spotter to write a novel and attain spiritual insight. He was able to do this to some extent, but also found that 63 days alone on a remote mountain in the North Cascades nearly unhinged him. Even today, it's a two-hour boat ride up Ross Lake just to reach the trailhead. Kerouac's experiences were what first sparked Suiter's interest in fire lookouts. Suiter, a Boston-based photographer and writer, had previously shot photo essays on Kerouac's haunts in Lowell, Mass., and Mexico City. For Suiter, Desolation Peak was at first just another site in the Kerouac story. In 1995, while working on a magazine assignment, Suiter spent two weeks camped at the summit of Desolation. He'd rarely hiked before, and the experience changed him. "It's a magical place," Suiter said. "To be on a mountaintop at dawn -- and everything below is covered in clouds and ground fog -- and you're in sunlight. It's a celestial experience." Suiter shared the finished magazine article with poet Snyder, who now lives on a rural homestead in Northern California. Snyder gave the piece his approval but badgered Suiter: "Why didn't you go up my mountain?" he asked. The question stuck with the photographer, and Suiter soon realized that the story of the fire-watching poets contained enough material to merit a full-length book. "Gary really challenged me to go back to the Cascades," Suiter said. "His input was crucial." Snyder, now in his early 70s, is the preeminent poet of Western North America's mountains. He grew up on the outskirts of Seattle, climbed most of the volcanic peaks of the Cascades in his teens, studied Native American mythology in graduate school and apprenticed as a Zen Buddhist in Japan. A quiet presence in the often noisy "Beat" movement of the late 1950s, Snyder is a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet whose work contains equal measures of spontaneity, Asian poetic forms and a keen awareness of ecology. He eagerly signed up to work as a lookout on Crater Mountain in 1952 and on Sourdough Mountain in 1953. Unlike Kerouac (whom Snyder talked into serving as a lookout), Snyder thrived in his role as a solitary fire spotter. While Kerouac practically ran off the mountain when his season was up, Snyder left reluctantly. Many of Snyder's published journals and poems (including the recent collection "Mountains and Rivers Without End") refer back to his meditative experience on the peaks. This July, Snyder returned to the Upper Skagit River for the first time in 50 years. During an event in the town of Nehalem, largely organized by Suiter, Snyder and five other former lookouts discussed their years on the peaks. Underneath a large maple fanned by mountain breezes, Snyder read from his lookout poems and paid tribute to Suiter's book, which he said "took us all by surprise." "Poets on the Peaks" was a labor of love for Suiter, who's a meticulous researcher. In addition to camping on all the lookout peaks, Suiter conducted extensive first-person interviews with former fire spotters, including Snyder and Whalen. Whalen, the third poet in Suiter's account, was a lesser-known but accomplished poet in his own right. Whalen wasn't much of an outdoorsman, and took a lookout job to pay off a debt to Snyder, a close friend. Whalen quickly found the lookout life to be an ideal existence. He worked three summers on Sauk and Sourdough mountains and had ample time for reading, writing, meditating, and nature-gazing. Whalen, who later became an ordained Zen monk, died this June. When Suiter presented Whalen with a copy of "Poets on the Peaks," the bed-ridden poet, nearly blind, exclaimed, "Ah -- it's wonderfully heavy!" Much of the originality of Suiter's book is the result of efforts to unearth unpublished letters and journals. Particularly rewarding was being allowed to read parts of a legendary journal that Snyder has kept nearly all his life. Snyder hasn't allowed many writers access to his papers and all would-be biographers have been turned away. "We were down at his place in California and drinking fairly late," Suiter said. "And Gary came over and had in his hand a stack of old leather-bound journals. He said, 'I think you might want to take a look at these.' It was my last night there and I realized that I was going to be up all night reading them. It was fascinating stuff." So, too, is "Poets on the Peaks," which proves there's more to the history of Washington's mountains than a few crusty miners, loggers and fur trappers. Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:16:16 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Tinfish Press goes on the road MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the road with Tinfish Press I will be spending much of the rest of this month on the east coast = (Buffalo, Boston, Northampton, northern Virginia, Boston) and then the = months of September through December in London, on that other island, = Great Britain. During that time, Tinfish Press will be releasing several = chapbooks and the 12th issue of the journal, Tinfish. Please consider = buying Tinfish products and, if you teach, using them in your = classrooms. Tinfish is expanding, but that means that expenses are = growing, as well. We need your help! Forward this message far and wide. In estimated order of appearance, then: --_A Piece of Work_, by Murray Edmond. Edmond is a marvelous New Zealand = writer and dramaturge. This long poem is at once an homage to his mother = and to the history of New Zealand in the 20th century. Designed by Ken = Lincoln. I'll announce the price before I leave Hawai`i next week, as = this one's almost done. --_Clutch_, by Sawako Nakayasu. Nakayasu is a writer who has lived in = Japan, San Diego, and most recently in Providence, Rhode Island. Her = "Hockey Love Letters" are at once about gender, love and ice hockey. = Designed by Jung Kim. --_Tinfish_ 12: the back to front issue. The cover was designed by Jung = Kim, who momentarily forgot that we westerners read from front to back. = So this issue will run from back to front. Features lots of translations = from Chinese poetry, as well as the usual mix of Australian, New = Zealand, Hawai`i, and west coast innovative poetry. Designed by Stuart = Henley, with centerfold by Duncan Dempster and art by Imai Kalahele. = Subscriptions are $20 for three issues. Or, $8 each. --_Pidgin Culture_, by Lee Tonouchi. Hawai`i's "pidgin guerrilla" holds = forth on the meaning and practice of pidgin speaking, in essay, talk, = and poem form. Expect to be enlightened, and to laugh. Designed by = Michael Cueva. --from The Theory of Subjectivity in Moby Dick, by Deborah Meadows. A = reading-through of Melville's novel, combining chance operation and = philosophical investigations of Melville's text. Designed by Jacqueline = Thaw. --Steve Carll's fabulous Hamburger (a chap about hamburgers slipped into = a hamburger sleeve) has just been reprinted. Don't miss this delicious = Tinfish meal! "I like hamburger" (Sangha Webster Schultz). Most of these have not yet been priced. Keep your eyes on our website = (http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish) for updates, and to see our = other publications. I will still be on email, as well, at = sschultz@hawaii.edu. For orders during my time in London, contact Native = Books through Ron Cox (coxr@hawaii.edu), or ask Clint Frakes = (clinton@lava.net). Have a wonderful autumn! aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:56:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Re: POETS ON THE PEAK Comments: cc: schwartzgk@msn.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c24325$c1abade0$6c48b7c7@computer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit gerald, i'll be hiking up the cold river, past "rondeau's hermitage", in a couple of weeks... have you ever been there? best swimming hole in the world about 5 miles downstream from john's place. anyway, seeing the website and it's mention of your poem cycle just fueled fond memories and grateful expectations... best of luck with th reading. luigi on 8/13/02 8:01 PM, schwartzgk at schwartzgk@MSN.COM wrote: > Gary Snyder's climb was part of the international Year of Mountains. > > The United nations had proclaimed 2002 as the International Year of > Mountains to increase international awareness of the global importance of > mountain ecosystems. Poetry On The Peaks is celebrating the relationship > between humanity to nature through poetry by setting up such climbs and > readings on as many mountains in the world and corresponding cities. Those > of us who have taken part in the program so far this year hope to increase > awareness of pressing issues (from over development and acid rain in the > Adirondacks to war in Afghanistan) and promote cultural heritage of mountain > societies around the world. > > for more, including all the info on the mountains climbed, the poems read( > including Gary Snyder and his poems)...and breaking news about naming a > crater on Mercury after Pablo Neruda see: > > http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain_about.htm > > All Best, > Gerald Schwartz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Rothenberg" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:29 PM > Subject: POETS ON THE PEAK > > > I think this is a very important event, the celebration, it highlights > the living relationship of poets and nature, historical and present. I > hope it is okay that I have pasted the article about the event as well > as the review of the book that brought all this together. A great > fellowship of poetry, society and scholarship. Michael > > By JOEL CONNELLY > SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER COLUMNIST > > NEWHALEM -- Lofty mountains long have served as inspiration to poetry > and song, and as setting for solitary contemplation. On Saturday, the > North Cascades provided a scene for verse, but on this occasion, the > warmth of long-separated friends coming together. > > A half-century after he hung Buddhist prayer flags from the > 8,129-foot-high Crater Mountain lookout, Pulitzer Prize-winning poet > Gary Snyder made his first visit back to the peaks and people of a river > valley often nicknamed the "magic Skagit." > > A mountaintop experience "changes peoples' lives" and shapes later > thinking, Snyder reflected. He would persuade two other literary > figures, Jack Kerouac and Philip Whalen, to come here in the '50s for > summers devoted to Zen and the art of forest-fire detection. > > The two months spent on Desolation Peak in 1956 marked the last period > of sobriety in Jack Kerouac's life. > > "I felt he needed to be alone for a while. ... There had been too much > socializing and two much sweet wine," Snyder said of his friend who > wrote "On the Road." > > Difficult to reach, requiring a boat ride up Ross Lake and a > 4,400-vertical-foot climb, Desolation meant isolation in the 1950s. With > no humans about, Kerouac found compelling company in the nearby twin > black towers of 8,080-foot Hozomeen Mountain. > > "Hozomeen is the Void -- at least Hozomeen means the void in my eyes," > Kerouac wrote. He would stare at it upside-down while doing yoga > headstands, which made the mountain appear as "a mess of double-pointed > rock/Hanging pouring into space." > > The lookout has come by a certain popularity in recent years as fans of > Kerouac's "Desolation Angels" make pilgrimages to where the noted 1950s > non-conformist rolled his cigarettes and wrote his verse. > > More visitors are likely. The weekend reunion -- staged by North > Cascades National Park -- helped celebrate publication of a new book > "Poets on the Peaks," a sensitive and beautifully crafted account of > those times by Boston-based writer John Suiter. > > Snyder dedicated his reading to Whalen, who later became a Zen Buddhist > priest and abbot. Whalen died June 26 in San Francisco. > > Snyder did not want for company. From Crater Mountain he could see just > two signs of humans' presence on earth -- distant lights from cabins on > Sourdough Mountain and Desolation. He was flanked Saturday by the men > who lighted those lanterns long ago. > > They were a "community of lookouts," in the words of Jack Francis, a > B-17 gunner who came home from World War II to become a teacher in > Bremerton. Francis was atop Desolation in '52, and recalled Saturday how > he was moved to have mercy on mice living in the cabin. > > On Sourdough was a 19-year-old Native American from Neah Bay, named > Schubert Hunter. Now a retired U.S. Forest Service timber worker, Hunter > cradled a great-grandchild, and shyly produced his first poem to mark > the 50-year reunion with Snyder. > > Snyder took the poem, "Hawkeye," from his fellow lookout and read it > aloud: > > "Bald eagle high and nearly out of sight > > "Can you see the sunrise, clouds colored bright? > > "Hear the whispers of the wind? > > "Can you see the river in the valley? > > "In a world that never ends, can you see the colors of the sunset? > > "In a world that bids us all goodnight." > > Looking up, Snyder responded: "That's darned good, Schubert." > > Later, Snyder read from the ending of his "Myths and Texts," inspired by > a fire far up the Thunder Creek valley that he spotted while manning the > Sourdough lookout in 1953. > > "The black snag glistens in the rain > > "& the last wisp of smoke floats up > > "Into the absolute cold > > "Into the spiral whorls of fire > > "The storms of the Milky Way." > > Snyder was slated to go back to Sourdough in '54, but it was not to be. > He was Red-baited off the lookout. > > As a college student, Snyder had joined the radical Marine Cooks and > Stewards Union to get summer work on a Grace Line passenger ship. The > association put him on a blacklist, which extended to all federal > employees by the second year of the Eisenhower administration. > > "It just indicated the hysteria of the McCarthy era and how nutty it > was," Snyder recalled. The Marine Cooks, he added, was an enlightened > outfit with three rules: "No race-baiting, no Red-baiting, no > queer-baiting." > > FBI agents actually appeared in Marblemount to quiz Snyder's fellow > employees, an episode recounted in a wickedly funny letter he received > from Whalen. > > Snyder now lives in the foothills of California's Sierra Nevada range. > He marveled at how little the upper Skagit country has changed from the > mountaintop days when studied Chinese, read Chaucer and watched the > Sourdough lookout cabin turn green with St. Elmo's Fire during a > lightning storm. > > Amid the sprawl of Interstate 5 and spread of megastores, the North > Cascades stand out as "something that won't be touched." > > Of course, the unexpected happens even to mountain places. > > In August 1945, a teenage Snyder climbed the symmetrical 9,677-foot cone > of Mount St. Helens. > > He came down to learn of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, and > predictions that the Japanese city would be a lifeless place for 50 > years. > > "I was outraged and shocked," he recalled. "I swore by the purity and > eternity of Mount St. Helens that I would fight this scourge forever. > Well, Hiroshima is doing just fine ... but Mount St. Helens is far > different." > > > High praise for an inspirational chronicle of fire lookout poets > > Friday, August 2, 02 > > By ANDREW ENGELSON > SPECIAL TO THE POST-INTELLIGENCER > > Among the craggy peaks of Washington's North Cascades, there are four > mountains that attract a curious sort of pilgrim. None of the four peaks > is unusually high, or technically difficult to ascend (although some are > quite remote). Yet each summer, the summits of Sauk Mountain, Crater > Mountain, Sourdough Mountain and Desolation Peak attract a few hardy and > bookish hikers. > > > They come to pay homage to three poets who lived and worked as fire > lookouts on the mountains in the mid-1950s. > > What attracts these pilgrims to the mountaintop (myself included -- I've > huffed up both Sourdough and Desolation) is a definitive chapter in the > history of both American literature and environmentalism. A magnificent > new book, "Poets on the Peaks," tells the story of these three forest > lookout poets -- Gary Snyder, Philip Whalen and Jack Kerouac -- in a > compelling narrative and luminous photos. > > A seven-year project of writer and photographer John Suiter, "Poets on > the Peaks" documents how the three very different writers were affected > by their work as solitary fire spotters for the U.S. Forest Service. > > Of the three writers profiled in Suiter's book, Kerouac is certainly the > most famous. Hard-living, enthusiastic, obsessed with Buddhism, and > constantly high on pharmaceuticals and cheap wine, Kerouac served as a > lookout on Desolation Peak in 1956. The author of "On the Road" hoped to > use his time as a fire spotter to write a novel and attain spiritual > insight. He was able to do this to some extent, but also found that 63 > days alone on a remote mountain in the North Cascades nearly unhinged > him. Even today, it's a two-hour boat ride up Ross Lake just to reach > the trailhead. > > Kerouac's experiences were what first sparked Suiter's interest in fire > lookouts. Suiter, a Boston-based photographer and writer, had previously > shot photo essays on Kerouac's haunts in Lowell, Mass., and Mexico City. > For Suiter, Desolation Peak was at first just another site in the > Kerouac story. In 1995, while working on a magazine assignment, Suiter > spent two weeks camped at the summit of Desolation. He'd rarely hiked > before, and the experience changed him. "It's a magical place," Suiter > said. "To be on a mountaintop at dawn -- and everything below is covered > in clouds and ground fog -- and you're in sunlight. It's a celestial > experience." > > Suiter shared the finished magazine article with poet Snyder, who now > lives on a rural homestead in Northern California. Snyder gave the piece > his approval but badgered Suiter: "Why didn't you go up my mountain?" he > asked. The question stuck with the photographer, and Suiter soon > realized that the story of the fire-watching poets contained enough > material to merit a full-length book. "Gary really challenged me to go > back to the Cascades," Suiter said. "His input was crucial." > > Snyder, now in his early 70s, is the preeminent poet of Western North > America's mountains. He grew up on the outskirts of Seattle, climbed > most of the volcanic peaks of the Cascades in his teens, studied Native > American mythology in graduate school and apprenticed as a Zen Buddhist > in Japan. A quiet presence in the often noisy "Beat" movement of the > late 1950s, Snyder is a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet whose work contains > equal measures of spontaneity, Asian poetic forms and a keen awareness > of ecology. He eagerly signed up to work as a lookout on Crater Mountain > in 1952 and on Sourdough Mountain in 1953. > > Unlike Kerouac (whom Snyder talked into serving as a lookout), Snyder > thrived in his role as a solitary fire spotter. While Kerouac > practically ran off the mountain when his season was up, Snyder left > reluctantly. Many of Snyder's published journals and poems (including > the recent collection "Mountains and Rivers Without End") refer back to > his meditative experience on the peaks. > > This July, Snyder returned to the Upper Skagit River for the first time > in 50 years. During an event in the town of Nehalem, largely organized > by Suiter, Snyder and five other former lookouts discussed their years > on the peaks. Underneath a large maple fanned by mountain breezes, > Snyder read from his lookout poems and paid tribute to Suiter's book, > which he said "took us all by surprise." > > "Poets on the Peaks" was a labor of love for Suiter, who's a meticulous > researcher. In addition to camping on all the lookout peaks, Suiter > conducted extensive first-person interviews with former fire spotters, > including Snyder and Whalen. > > Whalen, the third poet in Suiter's account, was a lesser-known but > accomplished poet in his own right. Whalen wasn't much of an > outdoorsman, and took a lookout job to pay off a debt to Snyder, a close > friend. Whalen quickly found the lookout life to be an ideal existence. > He worked three summers on Sauk and Sourdough mountains and had ample > time for reading, writing, meditating, and nature-gazing. Whalen, who > later became an ordained Zen monk, died this June. When Suiter presented > Whalen with a copy of "Poets on the Peaks," the bed-ridden poet, nearly > blind, exclaimed, "Ah -- it's wonderfully heavy!" > > Much of the originality of Suiter's book is the result of efforts to > unearth unpublished letters and journals. Particularly rewarding was > being allowed to read parts of a legendary journal that Snyder has kept > nearly all his life. Snyder hasn't allowed many writers access to his > papers and all would-be biographers have been turned away. > > "We were down at his place in California and drinking fairly late," > Suiter said. "And Gary came over and had in his hand a stack of old > leather-bound journals. He said, 'I think you might want to take a look > at these.' It was my last night there and I realized that I was going to > be up all night reading them. It was fascinating stuff." > > So, too, is "Poets on the Peaks," which proves there's more to the > history of Washington's mountains than a few crusty miners, loggers and > fur trappers. > > > > Michael Rothenberg > walterblue@bigbridge.org > Big Bridge > www.bigbridge.org > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 04:05:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: odds and ends MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT some international notes: From AsiaSource (www.asiasource.org), Asia Society's online resource on Asian arts, culture, politics, and business. This month's interviews: The Kamasutra Translated: An Interview with Sudhir Kakar http://www.asiasource.org/arts/kakar.cfm Sudhir Kakar is widely known as the father of Indian psychoanalysis; he is also an accomplished novelist, scholar and translator. His most recent work is a new translation of the Kamasutra of Vatsyayana, which contains not only a complete translation of the third-century text, but also a historical introduction and excerpts from Sanskrit and Hindi commentaries. An Interview with Jael Silliman http://www.asiasource.org/arts/silliman.cfm Jael Silliman is an Associate Professor of Women's Studies at the University of Iowa and the author of the new book Jewish Portraits, Indian Frames: Women's Narratives from a Diaspora of Hope (Brandeis University Press, 2002). This immensely personal book chronicles Calcutta's little-known Jewish community through the lives of four generations of Jewish women in Silliman's family. Bombay Time http://www.asiasource.org/arts/umrigar.cfm Thrity Umrigar is the author of Bombay Time (Picador/ St. Martin's Press, 2002), a new novel that artfully traces ambition and disappointment in the lives of several inhabitants of a Parsi neighborhood in Bombay. AsiaSource spoke with the author about her literary influences, India's middle class, and the emotional impact of the brain drain. Growing Up Bicultural: An Interview with Tamim Ansary http://www.asiasource.org/arts/tamimansary.cfm Tamim Ansary is an Afghan American writer whose September 12 email struck a chord with millions of people all over the world. AsiaSource spoke with Ansary about his recent memoir, West of Kabul, East of New York: An Afghan American Story, and about his life spent at the crossroads between the traditional Islamic society of his youth and the secular Western culture he came to call his home. New Book Titles available at AsiaStore: Tamarind Woman By Anita Rau Badami "Set in the railway colonies of India, Tamarind Woman tells a story of two generations of women. Kamini, an overachiever, lives in a self-imposed exile in Canada." -Algonquin Books I Have Seen the World Begin: Travels Through China, Cambodia, and Vietnam By Carsten Jensen,Barbara Haveland "Wh en Carsten Jensen set out by train from Denmark on a journey to the East, he expected to find lands of rich history and culture, and people undergoing radical change at the end of the twentieth century. In this illuminating narrative of his travels, there is this and much, much more." -Harcourt The Impressionist By Hari Kunzru "Pran Nath Razdan, the boy who will become the Impressionist, was fathered in circuitous circumstances by an Englishman and passed off by his Indian mother as the child of her husband, a wealthy man of high caste. Growing up in luxury just downriver from the Taj Mahal, at fifteen the news of Pran's true parentage is revealed and he is tossed out into the street - a pariah and an outcast. Thus begins an extraordinary, near mythical journey of a young man who must invent himself to survive - not once, but many times." In the Absence of Sun: A Korean-American Woman's Promise to Reunite Three Lost Generations of Her Family By Helie Lee "Helie Lee often had heard her grandmother speak of an uncle, lost decades ago when he was a child during the family's daring escape from North Korea. As an adult, he was still living there under horrid conditions. When her grandmother began to ail, Helie became determined to reunite her with her eldest son, despite tremendous odds. Helie's mission became even more urgent when she realized that her first book, the bestselling novel Still Life with Rice, about the family's escape, might have angered the North Korean government and put her uncle in danger." - Crown Publishing Group Afghanistan Diary: 1992- 2000 By Edward Grazda "Afghanistan Diary is a provocative introduction to the recent history of the troubled country since the Mujahideen capture of Kabul in 1992. Documentary photographer Edward Grazda witnessed firsthand this hugely transformative period in modern Afghan history, from the destruction of the capital city five years into a ruinous civil war between Mujahideen factions, to their defeat by the Pakistani-supported Taliban militia, whose radical interpretation of Islamic law--and its draconian enforcement--is unarguably the most extreme in the Islamic world." - Powerhouse Books The Art of Calligraphy in Modern China By Gordon S. Barrass, British Museum "Calligraphy is a defining feature of Chinese culture, both a means of communication and a revered form of art. It has changed more dramatically during the half century since Mao Zedong established the People's Republic in 1949 than over the preceding 1,500 years. At first the traditional art of calligraphy was transformed into an instrument of political power and protest, wielded on an unprecedented scale. Over the past three decades it has emerged as a more visually exciting modern genre, which now offers fascinating insights into the people of modern China." - University of California Press Taisho Chic: Japanese Modernity, Nostalgia, and Deco By Kendall H. Brown, Sharon A. Minichiello "Catalogue entries on popular songbooks, kimono, and decorative arts further investigate the potent relations between styles and ideologies imported from the West and those newly established as Japanese tradition." - University of Washington Press To purchase books online about Asia, go to AsiaBooks at www.asiasource.org/books Some may already be familiar with the Asia Society's world-renowned collection of books on Asia. AsiaStore continues to satisfy bibliophiles with scores of titles on art, culture, politics and religion in Asia. Come visit AsiaStore at 725 Park Avenue, NY, New York. AsiaSociety Online: AsiaSociety.org www.asiasociety.org Find out more about Asia Society events, publications, speeches, and exhibitions AsiaSource www.asiasource.org Asia Society's online gateway site on Asia AskAsia.org www.askasia.org Resources for K-12 educators and students AsiaFood www.asiafood.org Asian food resource AsiaBusinessToday www.AsiaBusinessToday.org Asian business resource Asia in New York City www.asiainnyc.org Cultural travel guide for New York City and Two International anthologies of poetry, art, essays short stories and photos. The Book of Hope contains only poetry. The World Healing Book contains poetry, art, essays short stories and photos and will be printed in full color. The books are now available at a wonderful little bookshop in Rochester NY The Magic Box # (585) 473-7050 376 Meigs St Rochester NY 14624 Also available through the website http://this.is/poems/hope/list/order.html Contact: Birgitta Jonsdottir - Editor - birgitta@this.is Michael Lohr - Co-Editor - shamans_rune@hotmail.com Beyond Borders http://this.is/poems Hofsvallagata 20 101 Reykjavik Iceland Tel: 354 552 1742 Info from the website http://this.is/poems/hope/list/about.html Number of participants are around 187 for both books. Number of works accepted: ca. 230 poems, short stories and essays. 30 artworks and photos. If the works are originally written in the authors language then they will be printed both in that language and English, side by side. Confirmed countries taking part: Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, England, France, Germany, Guatemala, Holland, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Macedonia, Montenegro, Morocco, New Zealand, Nigeria, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Taiwan, Tibet, Turkey, Ukraine, UAE, USA & Wales. GOALS & HOPES When the idea for creating these books was born, I really wanted to reach to poets and artists, spiritual leaders, and voices of as much diversity as possible to reach in a short period of time. I feel that goal has been reached. The youngest participant is a 12 year old boy from Russia and the oldest is 82. Two classes in digital media from the University of the Philippines made artwork specially for the books. We have some amazing people taking part in this, of all different ages and backgrounds. Established voices and new voices. People from around the world have lent their views and visions to create hope and healing and work for peace. Many of the people taking part have been active in creating a dialogue among nations through poetry for a long time. I feel that this project has all the potential to reach to people and to help in the healing process we need to go through as human beings. I find it important to focus on hope and healing at times when the whole world is at the edge of a world war. I find it important that people are willing to work towards those goals and I honor and respect all the people that have taken part. This is our gift to the world and as I have said to everyone taking part - this is not my project but ours - the people of the world. The main goal is to open a dialogue between nations and to sell enough copies so we can give some sustainable amount of money to UNICEF. All in all we are creating a platform for openness and tolerance. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 01:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Thursday: AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thursday July 25th Casablanca's, Mound & High, Downtown Columbus, Ohio, the 14th largest US city, on a steamy night, in a place once called the Red Hook, where one could clearly feel the poetic remains of sailors marketed through the floorboards. As with most poetry events, things started after the scheduled time, although not to the usually poetically fashionable extreme. Somewhere around 8:40pm after some intense socializing and working thru a general notion of who, when and duration, the Pavement Saw pre-Second Wave Reading opener & release party for Dan Zimmerman's first book, started. This was my favorite type of MC situation as I had met all (except one) of the reader's beforehand and threatened to tell some horrifically embarassing story, but a brilliant reading would exhonerate them from my tale. The room was tense. A decent crowd, consisting of at least 40 during the opening lull, listened on as Jesse Glass from Japan, the poet I was least familiar with, read. I knew he had edited Die Young with Skip Fox in the early to mid nineties and that his work was wide in range, from visual / concrete poetry to narrative work praised by the American Book Review. Under advisement from an intern, Sean Kearns, who picked Glass up from the Hotel "man, he's coming in & out, bad jet lag, dude, I'd put him on first" his slot was chosen, although I did not ever explain my choice in person. The first poem Glass read was real fine, tho I did not hear the name, and I appreciated his full set, the tight turns, the long breath over short lines, the light humor always present with "Go Ha Ha Ha" being my other favorite. The only one I found disagreeable "Honoring It" might have had to do with my long meandering in this IT realm, reading Stephen (who was in the audience) Ellis's _The long and Short of It_ for a (unused) blurb, because I could not stop for humorous short jokes. Jesse read for 20 to 30 minutes (I'm watchless), before I interrupted to move on, as I was suddenly struck by how large this reading would be. Michael Basinski read a rendition of Poe's "The bells," a poem that if you have had the misfortune of deciding to teach in a literature class, then his retitled "the Balls" jangled the ears quite differently. A classic Bar poem, the Balls filled the audience with laughter. Basinski is another wildly diverse writer, and each poem was a totally separate entity, during his second I was harrassing some "employees" for money (I work here, so do the four of them, I'm broke, those are some big rings there, hey look I just found five dollars, etc.) missed the title & then he did a piece on "three" which is the magic number, in which many singular items, one being the loneliest, were made threes also. Brian Richards did an uncharacteristic poem about being a bad man, an unfortunate choice due to the all of out of towners hearing him for the first time. This work seemed incomplete in compares to "Winged Zoe," or "Talking at Teeny's" where the punctuation and exactness of juxtapostion acquire the readers attention. With the ability to hush the room quiet after a half dozen lines, Aralee Strange did these wonderful doctor poems, reminiscent of Niedecker mixed with WCW or Irby, & read in a southern drawl. Each of these pieces were long, five to ten minutes, and the last two, concluding with "There is no Meditating on the Ginko" from Ultimate Pavement Saw, kicked my ass over time, still are, as good poems are wont to do. She briefly talked about her film, THIS TRAIN, which stars Soupy Sales, and how the poems are utilized. I was not only impressed with the reading but also chirped that Sheila had a chance to hear her. All readers from the first set read standing. In odd comparsion to the rest of the conference, this had no visual component. I forgot to turn on the cheap multicolored disco-ball in the corner. ____________Break________________ During the intermission, people moved around, I played host, fanning the flame of jubilation, breaking the ice between many such & suches to whoseshewhatsits that had grabbed my ear during the reading & said could you introduce me to x. The biggest surprise of the evening for me was finally meeting the former language poet Peter Ganick, as I had expected a different individual from our phone conversations. He was much larger and, while talkative, more quiteish than on the line. It did not seem that he had any work on him, so rather than asking for a reading, I resolved to hear him on Saturday. The owner, Abdi, was pleased & told me extremely slowly especially considering all of the stimulants (cod(sp?)) he was on. Set Two: Daniel Zimmerman read sitting down, hunched over a batch of poems with a fierce glare from his glasses & read a large selection from Post Avant before going onto work from the British Frame Publications chapbook Isotopes & then concluding with newer work including one from the new Ultimate issue. In nice contrast to Aralee, his non-dramatic style complemented the poems & was a solid, straight forward addition. Stephen Mainard read three new poems, all were curt, concise and heavy with imagery. One of them had to do with "the beautiful." He is also a quiet reader but tall & read standing. Steve Abbott read two jazz works in a loud, almost brash, voice. I wanted to include some nearby writers, to show each other off & mingle, a factor which was successful & well appreciated. One of Steves poems is also in Ultimate. Before introducing Sheila, I read three poems, Poem in which we are not together, Poem in which unity exists and I think of of the water poems tho I forget. Since I have a bias, I'll let others state how I did. Sheila E. Murphy shifted her readings from Falling in Love Falling in Love with you Syntax to Greatest Hits to The Stuttering of Wings over and over again. I remember her reading "She's lovely on Prozac" and "A portrait of Beverly C" I think she also read "Clothes Party Line" & a piece about an Irish background (this is where I get fuzzy & forgetful, help?) & I also remember she briefly pulled out Teth & did something not in the selected & while I was hoping to hear how "club of trailer park what ifs" would be aired it was not so. Sheila is in continual smiles thru the eve & we had plenty of time to recover on Friday as things did not start again till 3:30pm. If others can supplement my memory, I'd greatly appreciate it for a more accurate record-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 23:56:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ballsy of you to put yr mistress' nickname, Sox, up online. Glad to hear things are coming together there. Am just abt recovered from my (3rd) Hernia repair op. Will have my new book to you soon. Come to California, Love, Broms -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim >> >> >>Hi Mark, >> >>I was reversing Pound's quote. > >Pound wasn't quoting. He actually said the remark on his own. >-- >George Bowering >Sox blow it again. >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 03:28:08 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Friday: AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friday July 26, 2002 Friday was an odd warmer to the main day. While we enjoyed Dan Zimmermans company, he left in the morning in a rush due to a banishing spell performed the night before and at quarter of one I stopped down at the bus station of the city in the US with the largest number of unfit males according to CQ magazine (they know no writers here) walked up to a person in the packed terminal & asked if he was Bob, he said yes, I said from Florida?, the same answer & I said (hey ho) lets go. Columbus' Greyhound station is horrific as midwesterners believe they can get anywhere by bus and why should we be in hurry, were in Ohio. I took Bob Grumman back to my house to feed & revive him from a 30 hour bus drive with a special cold French rotini dish with a vegetarian chili combo. We talked of things & while I was familiar with his review writing since the late eighties when he worked on Factsheet Five (back when they astoundingly published reviews of EVERY journal, tape, etc that arrived), then moved to Taproot when they shifted to newspaper format, then the short lived Small Magazine Review which was reconfigured back into Small Press Review. I know he had written about us over the years & had read plenty of his other evaluations but had no idea about his poetry. Bob is working on something admirable, a form of math that divides one word into another using color & expresses the remainder in words also, which, when seen in total, creates a page long poem incorporating all of these leftover fractions (whole words) which are then subsequently further divided. This mathmatico has many sharp moments to it, which were displayed at his Saturday presentation. For nearly the whole weekend one of our interns, Sean Kearns, was present & he showed up at the house for free eats & a talk with Bob. We left about 3pm & got there just in time. We might have missed a few people, but right when we got there Basinski was doing a poem involving all kinds of packing materials used at the same time by all poetry inducing audience members. These were all short readings, my brief memory had mIEKAL aND reading these letter type things, Igor Satanovsky using a bullhorn to immediate effect on a 'Russian' poem which included pseudo & stereotyped words of Russian import, Peter Ganick, Sheila E. Murphy, John M. Bennett, Lewis LaCook, John Byrum, Thom Taylor (anabasis), Michael Peters, William Austin from a book (was it fiction? couldn't tell), Jesse Glass, Bob Grumman, Brandon Barr, Irving Weiss, & Geoffrey Gatza (who arrived just over that thin line of fashion in lateness). Most did three pieces or five minutes with continual prodding from John MB who was trying to move visual artists to perform. I read three Estrellas & had plenty of energy firing, interior out. If Ficus Strangulensis, Carlos Luis, Kathy Ernst, or Michael Magazinnik read I missed it. This is not in order. After, there was food, & I was able to see out of print collections of mine, Pavement Saw's & others in the Exhibit Hall. Ficus' work that the poster was made from was captivating and unexpected as the poster gave no sense of a three dimensional object which contained so many unphotographical tones dependent entirely on light source placement. A person told me about the Delphic elements she found captured in Estrella & I did a brief history on the fortune teller thru time from mythic to human to non-representational mechanical to faux human & so on. I met most, talked to all those met, ate plenty, walked in circles, invited people to our cookout & made the rest up. In the Grand Lounge of the OSU Faculty Club at 6:00 PM our contingent sat near the back, working as trickster figures, in sentences such as "I've only been invited to the regular lounge before," "these velvet covered couches sure are comfy, they would look great on our porch" and other memorable expressions of debouchery that people near us could tell you about. I believe the president of the college said something but since local papers or TV newshows are not allowed to show his picture or likeness so he doesn't end up dead, I am unsure if it was really him. Shortly after, there was much rejoicing and a keynote address was given by Marvin Sackner in which he gave a general overview of their collection, & how him & Ruth started, using powerpoint. Marvin was difficult to hear & some of the projector type size was unreadable. He chose mostly work by presenters & seeing a hefty dose of Scott Helmes, K. S. Ernst & Carlos Luis, along with Jesse Glass (who I was not familiar with as a visual artist) was worth the aforementioned technical problems. Some of Helmes' work I had seen before, & loved his chapbook on Zelot Press (2 of the shown ones were similar to this, or else the same ones!). They even showed a page from our Grenier 'book' without knowing that we were in the audience. The Sackner Archive (all viz-po) looked like a excellent visit, I would go to appreciate the Patchen painted poems alone. We went back to the house, dropped Bob G. off for the night, then went back out with Stephen Mainard & Sean to the bookfair up at the hotel. For its worth, our waitress was drunk. After successfully hawking our wares, & good talks & trades with John Byrum, mIekal &, Igor, and a long talk with Joel Lipman about his poemvelopes, which we stayed for nearly an hour after the fair closed to view reproductions of, we went on our way for short rest before our 6:30 am wakeup. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:02:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Music Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes, this is the line-up on the only album of hers I have, _Maintain Control_. Performing with Cortez, they call themselves the Firespitters. Don't know much about the other work they've done. I saw them live with Cortez in Detroit in the late 80s, and they were definitely hot. Mark DuCharme >From: Vernon Frazer >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Music >Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:51:29 -0400 > >I don't know that it's Ornette's band. I'm not familiar with the specific >album, but generally Cortez use her and Ornette's son, Denardo, as drummer. >She's used Bern Nix as guitarist, and Jamaladeen Tacuma on electric bass a >number of times. Some of them have played in Prime Time. > >Vernon <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:18:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:13:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Steve Abbott readers in NYC? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Could anyone in New York City or nearby who has read & who likes Steve Abbott's writing please backchannel me? Thanks! Gary _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:38:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: Music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Yes, this is the line-up on the only album of hers I have, _Maintain Control_. Performing with Cortez, they call themselves the Firespitters. Don't know much about the other work they've done. I saw them live with Cortez in Detroit in the late 80s, and they were definitely hot. << Another excellent Jayne Cortez and the Firespitters album is "There It Is" (Bola Press, 1982). The lineup is as follows: Jayne Cortez, Abraham Adzenyah, Bill Coleshenai, Denardo Coleman, Farel Johnson Jr., Charles Moffett Jr., Bern Nix, Jamaaladeen Tacuma. -- Gwynne Garfinkle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:24:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Along the same lines as the music chat, what are people reading and enjoying? I've been knocked out lately by two books: Joyelle McSweeney's THE RED BIRD (Fence) and Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE (Edge). Two very different, very wonderful collections. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:15:40 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hmmm. i'm reading The Man with the Axe about Alfed Jarry and One Market under God by Thomas Frank. strange convergences these. Kevin Socialist Butterfly -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:13:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: poppycock number one Comments: To: IxnayPress@aol.com Comments: cc: whpoets@english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ixnay press is pleased to announce the first issue of poppycock, an occasional newsletter of reviews, interviews, & poems. In the first issue you'll find: * Don Riggs on Pattie McCarthy's "bk of (h)rs" * Ethel Rackin on Rachel Blau DuPlessis's "Drafts 1-38, Toll" * an interview w/ Marcella Durand * Alicia Askenase on Hank Lazer's "Days" * a new poem from Mariana Ruiz-Firmat * & CAConrad on Heather Fuller's "Dovecote" 12 pgs, $2. You can either order 1) via email at ixnaypress@aol.com or 2) via a check made out to Chris McCreary or Jenn McCreary & mailed to: ixnay press c/o McCreary 1328 Tasker Street Philadelphia PA 19148 Thanks much! -- Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:32:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Been reading Albert Mobilio's Me With Animal Towering and loving it! I'm teaching a course on experimental poetics in the fall, charting 100 years of avant-garde poetry in America. The first book is Tender Buttons and the last is Me With Animal Towering...anyway, I was very excited to find a great Village Voice article Mobilio wrote on Stein a few years back. It'll be a great circulatory ending for the course... Noah __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: FW: Woodstock Poetry Festival: Thu, Aug 22-Sun, Aug 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shld you be in or coming through upstate nueva york later this month -- pierre -----Original Message----- From: Phillip Levine [mailto:pprod@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 6:03 PM To: Phillip Levine Subject: Woodstock Poetry Festival: Thu, Aug 22-Sun, Aug 25 The Woodstock Poetry Festival begins next Thursday, August 22nd and runs through Sunday, August 25th. Numerous known and unknown poets will be gathering in Woodstock at multiple venues for readings, book signings, etc. I have the distinct privilege to be reading my own work on Saturday, August 24th at the historic Maverick Concert Hall sometime between 1pm and 3pm. I will also be hosting a reading Friday, August 23rd 10:30pm at the Colony Cafe, featuring George Quasha, Charles Stein and Tad Richards and which will be followed by an Open Mic. There are a number of additional events, all detailed at the website: www.woodstockpoetryfestival.com Some of the notables: Billy Collins-US Poet Laureate Kate Barnes Lawrence Ferlinghetti Robert Kelly Li-Young Lee Michael McClure Sharon Olds Kate Rushin William Irwin Thompson Anne Waldman John Yau & many more.... Hope to see you, Phillip Levine === if you wish to no longer receive emailings from me, simply tell me. ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:29:02 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jim, I've been reading Borges' "This Craft of Verse," and just last night I re-read Ron Padgett's "The Big Something" which is wonderful. What else? Plato's "Gorgias," J.M. Synge's "Playboy of the Western World," and Rushdie's "Midnight's Children." I have McSweeney's book, and my reaction is a bit mixed...wonderful language throughout, but I'm one of those old-fashioned guys who craves a somewhat-defined emotional center. Joyelle's book seems to be a series of evasions of emotion. But perhaps I'm wrong. I'd really like to discuss the book, if you'd like to backchannel me...or we can do it here on the list. That said, I like it...but... Best, Tony --- Jim Behrle wrote: > Along the same lines as the music chat, what are > people reading and > enjoying? I've been knocked out lately by two > books: Joyelle McSweeney's > THE RED BIRD (Fence) and Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE > (Edge). > Two very different, very wonderful collections. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:36:58 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: The Void In-Reply-To: <200208130402.g7D4274N014486@mail.localweb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wait, traveller In this invisible fountain Before you wet your tongue Think, traveller of life You also ooze out of the rocks Only a water sprite The thinking water does not flow forever It dries in a moment of eternal time Ah, a noisy jay Sometimes from this water A phantom man comes out holding up a flower Seeking an eternal life is a dream The murmuring stream of life flows away Abandoning thought at last Falling over the eternal cliff Dreaming of disappearance Are the words of a phantom, a water imp Coming out of the water to the village and to the town At the time of glowing waterweeds in the shadow of Floating clouds -- Nishiwaki Junzaburo The theater we know is the edges of our organs, and our selves are actors. -- Michael McClure Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:54:56 EDT From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Poetic Ambition In a message dated 8/10/02 4:15:36 PM, weishaus@PDX.EDU writes: << I think you have something when you say, "Some have a bigger void to fill than do others." But even if one doesn't need ambition, there's still a struggle with the ego, of feeling that one is not being seriously read and discussed. Some part of all of us remains steadfastly immature. But this serves too. There are those few--you mention Ginsberg--who thrive in the public eye. Yet, even in Allan, there was the void. -Joel >> Absolutely! Ginsberg was 90% void, driven by conflicted sexuality, hopeless love affairs, his mom and pop tragedies. For validation the man was desperate. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:02:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm reading "Leaving Lines of Gender: A Feminist Genealogy of Language Writing" by Anne Vickery, Michelle Tea's "The Passionate Mistakes and Intricate Corruption of One Girl in America," and most enjoyably, "The Haiku Year" (Soft Skull Press). Gwynne G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:17:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <20020814222902.23091.qmail@web10507.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Borges, I'd add *Seven Nights*, a series of seven Buenos Aires lectures translated by Eliot Weinberger. Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" --Bob Perelman Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Jim, { { I've been reading Borges' "This Craft of Verse," and { just last night I re-read Ron Padgett's "The Big { Something" which is wonderful. { { What else? Plato's "Gorgias," J.M. Synge's "Playboy { of the Western World," and Rushdie's "Midnight's { Children." { { I have McSweeney's book, and my reaction is a bit { mixed...wonderful language throughout, but I'm one of { those old-fashioned guys who craves a somewhat-defined { emotional center. Joyelle's book seems to be a series { of evasions of emotion. But perhaps I'm wrong. I'd { really like to discuss the book, if you'd like to { backchannel me...or we can do it here on the list. { That said, I like it...but... { { Best, { Tony { { { --- Jim Behrle { wrote: { > Along the same lines as the music chat, what are { > people reading and { > enjoying? I've been knocked out lately by two { > books: Joyelle McSweeney's { > THE RED BIRD (Fence) and Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE { > (Edge). { > Two very different, very wonderful collections. { > { > --Jim Behrle { > { > { > { > { > { > { > { _________________________________________________________________ { > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: { http://mobile.msn.com { { { __________________________________________________ { Do You Yahoo!? { HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs { http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: naanabozho@HOTMAIL.COM Subject: Fwd: Native American Critic and Novelist Louis Owens Dies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI. ---------------------- Native American Critic and Novelist Louis Owens Dies July 30, 2002 Louis Owens, an internationally acclaimed novelist and a scholar of Steinbeck and Native American literature, died Thursday in Albuquerque at the age of 54. Considered the country's leading critical interpreter of Native American literature, Owens received several top book awards for his fiction and scholarly work, had his novels translated into other languages and most recently participated in a lengthy interview on national television about his Steinbeck scholarship during the centennial celebration of the Salinas Valley writer. Owens was the author of five novels -- one of which, "Nightland," won the American Book Award in 1997, four books of literary criticism and a new collection of essays, "I Hear the Train." His academic career spanned two decades and five universities. Most recently, he was a professor of English and Native American studies at the University of California, Davis, and headed the campus's Creative Writing Program. His colleagues described him as the rare literary polymath with expertise as the leading critic of Native American literature, a major scholar in mainstream American literature through his work on Steinbeck, and as an award-winning novelist and non-fiction writer about Native Americans. Gerald Vizenor, professor of American Studies at University of California, Berkeley, and a national figure in Native American literature, said Owens was the "most original scholar in critical theory" for Native American literature. "Louis Owens was an inspired, original literary artist, a masterful storier, and he was an exceptional teacher," he said. "His writing is really important in American literature, overall," said Luci Tapahonso, a Native American poet and professor of American Indian studies and English at the University of Arizona, Tucson. "He challenged people to rethink their approaches and touched on topics that hadn't been considered before." "Often academic departments do not hire their own; his coming back was extraordinary, by any standard," said Hicks, pointing to Owens' many accomplishments and accolades, including an invitation from Harvard University to spend a year there in 2004 as a scholar-in-residence. Just this spring, Owens' own work was the subject of a book, "Grave Concerns, Trickster Turns: The Novels of Louis Owens," by Chris LaLonde. Born in Lompoc, Calif., to migrant laborers, Owens spent his childhood moving between Mississippi and the Central Valley, picking beans and living in poverty. Owens has written of that period in an essay called "Finding Gene": "My first memories are of Gene and jungle-like woods that grew thick between our cabin and the deep-edged brown water of the Yazzoo River. Three, 4, 5, and 6 years old, I followed him everywhere, swinging on muskedine vines and eating the acid-sweet purple fruit, climbing pecan trees that we called pee-cans, fishing in the endless, muddy current of the river, jumping in the wire-sided cotton trucks filled with white boles. The washtub where I had to bathe in gray water after him, leaning toward the wood cook-stove on cold Mississippi mornings. The log shed we'd check each morning to see what skins our father had nailed up during the night." Of the nine brothers and sisters in the Owens family, Louis and brother Gene were the only two who completed high school and Louis was the only sibling to go to college. His mentor and major professor for his doctorate, UC Davis Professor Emeritus James Woodress, said Owens was first drawn to the work of John Steinbeck because he knew intimately the life and history of the Salinas Valley. "Because Louis came from very poor parents who were farm laborers, novels like 'The Grapes of Wrath' moved him a great deal," Woodress said. Owens' first book, "John Steinbeck's Re-Vision of America," was published in 1985, followed by "The Grapes of Wrath: Trouble in the Promised Land" in 1989. In May he was the subject of a lengthy interview on C-Span regarding John Steinbeck and his literary legacy. Owens earned his bachelor's and master's degrees in English from UC Santa Barbara before coming in 1978 to UC Davis for his doctorate. During graduate school, Owens and his wife spent a year in Pisa while Owens taught at the University of Pisa as a Fulbright Lecturer. Throughout his career, Owens was known for being extraordinarily prolific. Due to the number and quality of his publications, the time between his receiving his doctorate and being promoted to full professor at UC Santa Cruz was the shortest in the history of the University of California. Even in graduate school, while not working on his Steinbeck dissertation, Owens wrote his first novel, "Wolfsong," about copper strip-mining in Washington State's Glacier Peak Wilderness, where he had worked as a ranger and firefighter for the Forest Service. It was through this first novel, published in 1991, that Owens explored his Choctaw and Cherokee roots, said Hicks, a young assistant English professor at UC Davis while Owens was attending graduate school. "He told me he had a novel and asked if would I read it, and it was then that I found he was Native American. Quite clearly, to write a whole novel about one's heritage indicates it is alive in your life and your imagination," Hicks said. "By the end of the first book, being Native American was something that was alive for him." Owens, who considered himself a mixed-blood American, explored the dilemmas of being from multiple heritages through much of his writing -- both in fiction and non-fiction. He won a Wordcraft Circle Writer of the Year Award in 1998 for "Mixedblood Messages: Literature, Film, Family, Place." Owens' academic reputation in Native American fiction started in 1985 with an article, "A Map of the Mind: Darcy McNickle and the American Indian Novel," published in Western American Literature. He wrote many articles on Native American fiction before publishing his 1992 book, "Other Destinies: Understanding the American Indian Novel," which by now has become required reading in many college literature classes. In 1993 he won the PEN-Josephine Miles Awards for "Other Destinies" and his novel, "The Sharpest Sight" (1992). He also was awarded with the Julian J. Rothbaum Prize for his 1992 novel "Bone Game" in 1994. In his novels, Owens said he wrote to two audiences: mainstream readers and his Choctaw and Cherokee relatives. He wove in layers of Native American metaphor and myth through his complex mystery plots, so that two stories were being told at the same time. One of the awards he displayed proudly in his office was the 1995 Roman Noir Prize, a French award for the outstanding mystery novel published in French given to "The Sharpest Sight." His novels were translated into French, German and Japanese, and he appeared on French television more than once. Extraordinarily generous with his time and attention to students, Owens was a dedicated teacher who mentored and encouraged his students and other writers. "He gave an incredible amount of time to his students, time spent on reading and critiquing their work, time spent in meeting with them and working out the myriad problems that are associated with the scholastic life, and time offered in the spirit of camaraderie and friendship," said Spring Warren, a 2002 graduate of the UC Davis Creative Writing Program. Among the many recognitions for teaching that he received were the University of New Mexico Alumni Award for Teaching Excellence, the University of California Santa Cruz Alumni Association Distinguished Teaching Award, the UCSC Student Alumni Council Favorite Professor Award, and the Outstanding Teacher of the Year Award from the International Steinbeck Society. He was a Presidential Lecturer at the University of New Mexico for two years. From 1992 to 2000, Owens served on the faculty of UC Davis' Art of the Wild, a summer writing workshop on nature and the environment that drew nationally acclaimed writers. Owens was featured on a PBS one-hour special about the workshop. Owens is survived by his wife of 27 years, Polly; and his daughters, Elizabeth, 19, and Alexandra, 16, all of Tijeras, N.M.; his father Hoey; his brothers Gene, Troy and Richard; and his sisters Judy, Linda, Juanita, and Brenda. A campus memorial service is being planned for fall quarter. Media contact(s):Susanne Rockwell, (530) 752-9841, sgrockwell@ucdavis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:00:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <20020814213221.29655.qmail@web14804.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Noah--I would love to hear the reading list for this course, and I'm sure others would find it useful as well... Thanks, Arielle --- Noah Eli Gordon wrote: > Been reading Albert Mobilio's Me With Animal > Towering > and loving it! I'm teaching a course on experimental > poetics in the fall, charting 100 years of > avant-garde > poetry in America. The first book is Tender Buttons > and the last is Me With Animal Towering...anyway, I > was very excited to find a great Village Voice > article > Mobilio wrote on Stein a few years back. It'll be a > great circulatory ending for the course... > > Noah > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: from "Jim Behrle" at Aug 14, 2002 04:24:42 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Jim Behrle: > > Along the same lines as the music chat, what are people reading and > enjoying? I've been knocked out lately by two books: Joyelle McSweeney's > THE RED BIRD (Fence) and Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE (Edge). > Two very different, very wonderful collections. > > --Jim Behrle > > Jim, agreed - DOVECOTE is my favorite book of the year, just amazing. Also recently striking me: Judith M. Green, DEEP DEMOCRACY: Community, Diversity and Transformation (Rowan & Littlefield, 1999). Very interesting, in the tradition of Radical Prgamatism ala William James or Alain Locke, John Dewey etc. Jennifer MOxley's THE SENSE RECORD (Edge), which has really been challenging my biases re avant-form. And the one I mentioned last week, Neidecker's amazing COLLECTED Nate Mackey's ATET AD And as for music (which was the last thread yes?): Tim Berne's new album (name escapes me just now and the disc is in my car) which is a 100% written composition but which nonetheless sounds like Ornette meets World Saxophone Quartet meets DJ Shadow. Strange indeed and begs interesting questions re improvisation as a prerequisite to out-jazz etc. And revisiting (always nice to revisit!): The Breeder's POD. Worth it for the cover of "Happiness is a Warm Gun" alone but there's lots of great stuff including the tune "Oh." -m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:21:17 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <200208150005.g7F05hg8027907@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii POD is fantastic. "Oh!" indeed. "Fortunately Gone," "Iris"....wow. Haven't heard it in years. Tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:28:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right now I'm reading _Georges Bataille: An Intellectual Biography_by Michel Surya. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:45:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "roof slates" by pierre reverdy (caws/terry translation) "the heart of yoga" by t.k.v. desikachar (has the best best best translation of the yoga sutra) "economics" by fanny howe--so good-- the latest of issue of "jubilat" and "moby-dick" of course, in the pocket of my brief-case, available at all times, in case of emergency, conceptual or actual: my copy of "grapefruit" by yoko ono. ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <20020815004559.96392.qmail@web21404.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Digital Beauties, ed. Weidemann The Future of Ideas, Lessig Blender and other 3D handbooks Fifty-five T'ang Poems & T'ang Poetic Vocabulary, both Hugh Stimson .echo by me (finally got a POD copy) Flowers of the Southwest Deserts, Dodge Dialectics of Nature, Engels - Alan Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:29:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrea Baker Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <20020814213221.29655.qmail@web14804.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've been reading and re-reading Mill is Burning by Richard Matthews and Mary Jo Bang's Louise in Love for months now. I adore them both. Andrea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:09:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stuart Kauffman, _Investigations_ Oxford UP2000 (attempts at a "General Biology" -- absolutely fascinating -- was recommended to me by Don Byrd) Peter Sloterdijk, _Spären I, Blasen_ the first volume of the hottest German philosopher's magnum opus, not yet translated. RWB Lewis's biography of Dante (Penguiin Lives) Norma Cole _ Spinoza in her Youth_ Omnidawn 2002. the first issue of _Kiosk_ Maria Rosa Menocal _The Ornament of the World. How Muslims, jews, and Christians created a culture of tolerance in medieval Spain_ Little Brown 2002. An excellent book with a stupid introduction by Harold Bloom. Bernadette Mayer _Red Book in Three Parts_ United Artists Books 2002 (poems from 65-66) Abdelwahab Meddeb _ La Maladie de l'Islam_ (which I am in the process of co-translating with Charlotte Mandell) fro basic Books -- Look for it in the spring, an important analysis of Muslim culture. ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:11:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: The Moving Target Series, San Francisco In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable he Blue Room welcomes the return of The Moving Target Series 2331 Mission St. btw 19th and 20th, San Francisco (415) 515-1210 for tix/ (415) 584-7415 for press www.blueroomgallery.org Wednesdays in September doors open 7:30pm, show at 8pm, $8-10 sliding scale September 11: 911 (one year later) Six young men who feel deeply about their country offer a stirring tribute and testimonial on this most tragic of days. The Blue Room welcomes the White Ring for a star-spangled extravaganza that will be an inspiration to some, a warning to others, and a revelation to all. Are they Heroes? Or jus= t ordinary, Red-Blooded Americans standing up for their God-given Rights in these Troubled Times? The White Ring met while stationed in Kuwait during the Gulf War in 1990. Through the common link of music, and a shared message of strength and hope through politics and melody, they have remained active collaborators since. They are widely known for their riveting stage seminars which skillfully blend their own brand of music, testimonials and dramatic representations o= f the problems we face as a "progressive" society today. They have challenged even the thickest-skinned audiences both domestically and in the Third Worl= d with their mix of powerful messages. They have been well received in the Indie Christian rock scene and released one of the earliest examples of "East Bay I.C." records in 1993 ("The Monkey Song" b/w "Ecumenical Movement"), but have also enjoyed unprecedented crossover into the underground circuit of America's more subversive, experimental music venues= . In 2001, they were named Best Result of Operation Desert Storm by SF Weekly in their annual "Best of San Francisco" awards issue. Also on the bill is a rare local appearance by church folk hero Pastor Dick. Dick is best known for his work with local "culture jammers" Negativland, though his messages are often at odds with the more "humanist" approach of that famous Contra Costa group. September 18: Bad Poetasters and laity alike have endured the stultifying experience of a bad poetry reading at one time or another =96 and then there are those who=92d say they=92re all bad. But what happens when the Bay Area=92s best poets convene to find out just how bad they can be? Sifting through their own notebooks as well as the annals of Literature, these poets promise to do their Worst. With Kevin Killian, Bill Berkson, Beth Lisick, Andrew Felsinger, kari edwards, Norma Cole, Sean Finney, hosts Michael Smoler and David Hadbawnik, and more "bad" authors to come. kari edwards is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New Langton Art=92s Bay Area Award in Literature(2002), author of a day in the life of p. to be released by Subpress Collective (2002), a diary of lies =96 Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002), Electric Spandex: anthology of writing the queer text, by Pyriform Press (2002), and post/(pink) by Scarlet Press (2001) . Between '92-'93, Beth Lisick would come home from her job as a baker, drink a bottle of wine and try to write poems about what it was like being a baker with a drinking problem. Kevin Killian is a San Francisco novelist, poet, art writer, critic and playwright. His books include Bedrooms Have Windows, Shy, Little Men, Arctic Summer, and Argento Series. Killian's most recent book is I Cry Like a Baby, a collection of stories, memoirs and theoretical pieces. Bill Berkson has taught at the San Francisc= o Art Institute since 1984. He studied at Brown University, the New School, Columbia University and New York University's Institute of Fine Arts. He is the author of 11 books and pamphlets of poetry, including Red Devil, Start Over and Lush Life. His work has been included in many literary journals an= d anthologies. Berkson is a contributing writer to Artforum and other publications, and is a corresponding editor for Art in America. Sean Finney is a poet and journalist living in Oakland. He recieved an MFA from Brown University and has been published in Oblek and Lingo. His last reading was not officially bad. His interests include embarrasment, planning, and complete end-to-end n-tier ebusiness solutions. Norma Cole is a poet, painter and translator. Her most recent poetry publication is Spinoza in He= r Youth (Omnidawn Press). SCOUT, a text/image work, is forthcoming from Krupskaya Editions in CD-ROM format. Among her poetry books are MARS, MOIRA and Contrafact. September 25: What I Did Last Summer Ah, autumn in San Francisco=85 when warm sun finally breaks through summer fog, and friends convene over glasses of wine to discuss their summer adventures. In this case, who knows what revelations might come out? Justin Veach shares the strange ocular power he=92s been developing over the sultry Los Angeles summer, while James Bewley invites the creatures he encountered in the California wilderness to help relate his tale, and Blevin Blectum offers an aural report on her experiences. Blevin Blectum aka Bevin Kelley is an electronic musician based in Oakland. She recently released her second solo album Talon Slalom on Deluxe Records. Her first album Pirate Planets came out in 1999 on Phthalo Records under th= e name d84. As half of Blectum from Blechdom, she released several CDs and vinyl recordings including "The Messy Jesse Fiesta" (Deluxe), a top prize winner at the 2001 Ars Electronica. James Bewley is a writer, performer, an= d curator living in Oakland. Since moving to the Bay Area, he has performed his own performance work at several local venues including Caf=E9 Du Nord, Th= e Exploratorium, The Lab, Sonoma State University, and Works/San Jose. As a writer and performer with the sketch comedy group Killing My Lobster, Bewle= y has traveled to Los Angeles, Seattle, and Chicago to perform in comedy festivals and industry showcases. Recently Bewley was a visiting faculty member at the Rhode Island School of Design where he received his BFA in Sculpture in 1997. Bewley is the Program Director at New Langton Arts. Los Angeles-based artist Justin Veach exists somewhere between art critic and poet, performance artist and stand-up comedian. He holds a B.A. in Writing & Poetics and InterArts Studies from NaropaUniversity. * * * * * * The Moving Target Series, San Francisco=92s ongoing, roving presentation of performance, music, film, and movement, returns with a visit to The Blue Room for the month of September. Since 1999, the series (formerly curated b= y David Hadbawnik with Margaret Tedesco, now with Michael Smoler) has travele= d to such disparate venues as 848 Community Space, Z Space, The Luggage Store= , 111 Minna Street, New Langton Arts, and The Lab, treating audiences to the best performance in the Bay Area. Moving Target has featured a wide variety of artists including The Foundry, Ruth Zaporah, Mads Lynnerup, Remy Charlip= , Fred Frith, Negativland, Diane di Prima, Michelle Tea, Beth Lisick, and man= y others. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:40:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re-reading Consciousness Explained by Daniel C. Dennet... a completely fascinating work on the nature of consciousness, bypassing the reductionist/wholistic dichotomy and filled with great reports of experiments that challenge traditional notions of perception. Syntactically Impermenance (Scalapino) and Pierce-Arrow (Howe) Healing from Within with Chi Nei Tsang by Gilles Marin... a companion to studying Qigong. Design Patterns (GoF)... a software design book that builds on the idea of patterns (as applied to architecture) by Christopher Alexander in A Pattern Language... "Each pattern describes a problem which occurs over and over again in our environment, and then describes the core of the solution to that problem, in such a way that you can use this solution a million times over, without ever doing it the same way twice." -- it seems that literary manifestos may be a notational form of poetic patterns. And, just tonight: http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/lessig/freeculture/ -- required reading/listenging for anyone interested in the culture of creative thought. --T -- Tracy S. Ruggles, http://www.reinventnow.com tracy@reinventnow.com -- 512/461.6199 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:18:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: Re: Books/ class reading list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Arielle, as far as the course, it's really just the usual suspects: Wiliams: Kora in Hell... Stein: Tender Buttons... (both these to talk about meaning and syntax) Ashbery: Tennis Court... ( how does one more from avant-grade to academic approval) The New American Poetry ( what are the effects of poetic categorization) The Poetics of Indeterminacy (this is nice as it has chapters on Kora in Hell and Tender Buttons and a good deal of the intro is devoted to Ashbery) I decided on the Norton Anthology of Post-Modern American Poetry (the great sun & moon one is sadly out of print!) might use Berrigan's Sonnets, not sure Me With Animal Towering, as I said... and a reader w/ lots & lots of photocopied essays, poems and whatnot, things like Mayor's list of writing experiments, the Black Took Collective article from Fence, etc. Once I put the reader together if anyone's interested I'd let 'em know what exactly went in it; as it stands I've got a huge pile of books stacked up, amounting to around 500 pages with what I want to copy. I might just do it anyway and assign each student a different article to read and present to the class. They'll have more at their fingertips that way... the course meets once a week and is going to be half practice, half theory/history... It's really about exposure as far as I'm concerned. When I was an undergrad I had almost no exposure to--for lack of a better term--the Donald Allen side of American poetry...I'm just hoping to offer up a sort of door to the vastness of what's out there. I realize it's quite reductive to compress the history of avant-garde poetries into those few works, but at least they're still getting read... noah ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:00:19 -0700 From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: Books Noah--I would love to hear the reading list for this course, and I'm sure others would find it useful as well... Thanks, Arielle --- Noah Eli Gordon wrote: > Been reading Albert Mobilio's Me With Animal > Towering > and loving it! I'm teaching a course on experimental > poetics in the fall, charting 100 years of > avant-garde > poetry in America. The first book is Tender Buttons > and the last is Me With Animal Towering...anyway, I > was very excited to find a great Village Voice > article > Mobilio wrote on Stein a few years back. It'll be a > great circulatory ending for the course... > > Noah > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: two others I forgot for the list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I forgot to mention Hejinian's My Life and either one of Mullen's books or one of Kim's... this one thousand degrees of heat in MA is really getting to me! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:06:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 219 character essay: annihilation to the limit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 219 character essay: annihilation to the limit i am a furious woman. cannot abide stupidity. the continents are gone. enclaves of rich prepare for war. extinctions have reached maximum throughput four per hour. disease spreads through atmospheric pollution. there is no hope. seen far too many killings. world undergoes great slaughter before its time. humans should be stripped everything. prosthetics keeps species alive. fuck and wallow like amphibians. we begin return. drown ourselves. stuck in this groove. carefully explain. on with brute inertia, disastrous programming. wouldn't you story. tell stories, parables, awake! want us disemboweled. your clothes back on. political economy superstructure. superstructure saves you. it tombstone procreation. hang wires me. grab panties. you're my girl. you'll always it's because life. live head, cunt. there, half-born. that's reason. save us. they're names everything constitute. we're saved by them. animals names. they can't call. call up. was born furious. to undo own creation. name flesh-girl-god. everyone knows decay language. speak repeat myself. i'm obsessive-compulsive. disorder repetition permanent fuck. structure desire expands fill hole. mouth, blood carries code burn scars. scars circles herpes across body. moves outward. hides out nerves, culture. culture that marks look, can see me there. touch thoughts effect. difference exclusion. skin-residue, flesh-slough. death-wish everyone. not terrorize, cleanse. purposes removal nightmare. frightened expand against tongue. form character interval. annihilation. emptiness. perfect-flaw. will kill brains out. == 1 i tell stories, parables, awake! awake! 2 you want us disemboweled. you want your clothes back on. you want the political economy of the superstructure. the superstructure saves you. it is your tombstone and your procreation. 3 you hang in the wires with me. i grab your panties. you're my girl. you'll always be my girl. 4 that's the reason. the wires save us. they're the names of everything we constitute. we're saved by them. animals have no names. they can't call. they can't call up. 5 this is the story. i was born furious. i have to undo my own creation. my name is flesh-girl-god. everyone knows the decay of language. i speak and repeat myself. i'm obsessive-compulsive. the disorder keeps the world alive. repetition keeps the world alive. 6 there are wires in my mouth, blood in my hole. everything carries the code of life. wires burn scars. 7 the scars are circles in my cunt. herpes expands across the body. everything moves outward. it hides out in nerves, in culture. culture is the disease that marks the body. look, you can see me there. look, you can touch me there. 8 i am frightened of everything. the wires expand and burn against my tongue. they form the character for interval. they form the character for annihilation. for emptiness. for perfect-flaw. 9 because i will kill you and fuck your brains out. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:32:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crag Hill Subject: Listening and Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: Townes Van Zandt has been mentioned several times. Listen then to "Golden Age of Radio" by Josh Ritter, a Moscow, Idaho kid now living in Boston whose songwriting has drawn more than one comparison to Van Zandt. Especially listen-worthy: me & jiggs; lawrence, ks; harrisburg; and the title song, golden age of radio. I also cannot get enough of "The Dreams and Prayers of Isaac the Blind" by Osvaldo Golijov (performed by Kronos Quartet). You've got to "hear" the ending. It simply disappears, dissolves, the questions raised by the piece (structural and thematic) left unanswered. Who says classical music has to have closure? Summer catches me up on journals as well as books. I've been reading spunky back issues of Skanky Possum; the second issue of a very promising mag, Antennae; the premier poetry journal from Italy, Offerta Speciale (visual and verbal poetry from around the world); the always superbly focused Samizdat, and an energetic visual poetry mag out of Maine, Farrago. Thanks to Gary Sullivan's excellent alphabetic list of magazines on-line, I have also pleasurably roasted my eyes reading many more magazines off the screen (I've gotten through "H."). Summer also allows me to lurk on this list and others (rather than simply delete, alas). Books? I will entusiastically share: "so the ants made it to the catfood" by Anselm Hollo; "20 Lines A Day" by Harry Mathews, "Forms of Distance" by Bei Dao, "Mind in Society" by Lev Vygotsky, hand-in-hand with "The Dialogic Imagination" by M. Bakhtin. Best, Crag Hill Know your SCORE (#17) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 02:43:33 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: WM, 31, 170#, I like dancing, music, dining out, poetry, having fun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit albums that I have listened to in the last week... categories very recently recorded electronic music getting complicated and psychedelic: -The Return of Fenn O'Berg - Christian Fennesz, Peter Rehberg, Jim O'Rourke (Mego) -Blinfolder - Adaptation (more electronic music, this album I just recorded two weeks ago) -matmos live with j lesser (called "drug opera" on the cover) more straight up electronica: -Japanese Telecom - Japanese Telecom Searching for beats: -Afrika Bambaata - Looking for the Perfect Beat -Ornette Coleman- The Belgrade Concert when the music itself is just one part of a multivariate need to listen: -John Lennon - Shaved Fish -talking heads - fear of music -40 Oz. - Impacto (local ska band/friends of mine, I made a drunken promise to write a review, but it's quite good) -laurie anderson-live in new york 9.18.01 to have my mind blown away (or, to stretch myself musically & perceptually, to help me find order in polyrhythm and seeming chaos and then let go): -Ligeti - Ligeti Project 1 & Works For Piano, Etudes, Musica Ricercata & the not of my choosing category: -tenacious d - for some reason their pop irony shock-rocking just didn't work for me music going into my home/auto rotation soon: -Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band -sun ra - nuclear war -rechenzentrum -timeblind -peter brotzmann - machine gun books as of late (I'm reading much more prose again) Barry MacSweeney - Odes, hellhound Vladimir Nabokov - Pale Fire Haruki Murakami - Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World Kevin Killian & Lewis Ellingham - Poet Be Like God jack spicer - heads of the town up to the aether (had to go back to this one after reading Poet Be Like God) macsweeneys issue 8 - if you have seen this issue, you'd know it's a book and a journal collected works of John o'hara - i finally "get" o'hara borges - collected ficciones (I keep it at my bedside, and dip only on occasion, and in small delicate swallows, like an old port) linh dinh - three vietnamese poets, a small triumph over lassitude, a glass of water peter gizzi - the house that jack built and my favorite borges book: Other Inquisitions Labyrinths sucked me into Borges, Ficciones grabbed a permanent hold, but the one book that has wreaked havoc on my previously accepted ways of approaching literature was Other Inquisitions. Particularly the piece "The Flower of Coleridge" Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:52:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Reading David Rosenberg's Fear of Being Eaten Alive, his book on the Kabbala. David is an old pal and a nutcase. You might affirm this by reading his new See What you Think. -- George Bowering Sox blow it again. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:09:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 2002 to 14 Aug 2002 (#2002-184) In-Reply-To: <200208142106.17FbUm6Bn3NZFji0@eagle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I love it when the reading lists loop around. Anthony, I've just read Giorgias too, and was especially struck by the assertions on rhetoric -- designed to produce pleasure and conviction but not to morally educate, etc. Late to the table on this one, too: have just been reading Braudel's Afterthoughts on Material Civilization and Capitalism for a piece I'm working on involving 16th-century Lowlands -- and wonder if someone might advise how, discipline-wise, his distinctions between capitalism and the market have held up? The project's brought me to some fascinating other reads, too -- an economist, John H. Munro's papers on the cost of goods in Brabant in the period; Erasmus's Praise of Folly. Where was I when I had the option of taking European history? Audio-wise, I've been listening on walks and driving to McEwen's Atonement. Fascinating how he enacts and demolishes the 19th century novel at once, but I keep thinking the film version will be pure cheese. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:24:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Tantric Quest: An Encounter With Absolute Love, Daniel Odier Syntactically Impermenance, Scalapino The Heart of Yoga, T. K. V. Desikachar _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:18:15 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Whose text? Whose context? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have any experience with constructionist/relativist theories like 'discursive psychology' or 'social representations theory,' or 'perceptual-cognitivism'? Cognition as a feature/construction of practice? Collective natures of sense-making? Theories of action? The way cognition is understood and related to practice? How do these theories separate from more traditional views of emergent signifier and signified, (or objectivity), which I may have learned in literary-criticism texts? Are these representation-theories nothing more than cognitive-reductionism? Why are these disciplines strongly Euro-based, and hardly found in North America? I need a crash-course, and wonder if anyone knows enough to endorse the above theories, so that I might further pursue them, or should I just shrug them off? Is language, or representation, the better model? "...The richness and originality of meanings, this is indeed what we try to communicate to one another. But in this communication linguistic forms are not enough to explain how the communicated message is received and then understood. Why? Because we perform many more practical operations on it before transmitting it or in order to receive it.... Too often the communication of a message does not coincide with linguistic communication properly speaking." -- Moscovici, S. Social representations and pragmatic communication. Social Science Information, 1994. (164-5) sorry if this is slightly off-topic ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:42:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've been on quite a buying spree lately and have many new and terrific books of poetry, so I'll only mention a few gems here: The Fall of Because, David Baratier (Pudding House, 1999). Wonderful, spinning narratives. Great to read to friends who drop by. Method, Mark Salerno (The Figures, 2002). These "sonnet-like" poems are so deeply linked and antic that I'll never discern the structure . . . but I'll always enjoy the product. Source Codes, Susan Wheeler (Salt, 2001). Again a book of linked things . . . and a book that will yield as little or as much as you're willing to allow. On my third reading I'm still finding worthy things. Poetry, Language, Thought, Martin Heidegger (Harper, 1971). Hmm. A book I put off reading for several years. I find several things in here spot on . . . and several things I doubt I'll ever be able to unpack. But it's fun slogging through. And the book that I keep returning to, and have for some time now, the excellent Your Name Here, by John Ashbery (FSG, 2000). After such a long time of writing, his poems are as fresh as someone's just coming into a subject. I just love it. All great, beautiful books. Best, JG J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:35:13 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Books & Music Books on my desk: Russell Atkins, _Here in the_ (I had never heard of this very interesting poet until I found this used copy at the Literary Guillotine Bookstore here in Santa Cruz, where it had been returned after Nate Mackey assigned it for a class; surfing the web, I find that he was featured in _Crayon_ recently) Roland Greene, _Post-Petrarchism: Origins and Innovations of the Western Lyric Sequence_ (Greene is one of the very few Renaissance critics I know of who brings contemporary poetic concerns to bear on early modern texts) Lyn Hejinian, _Happily_ David Larsen, _Skips 'n' Scrips_ (terrifying, funny, hallucinogenic meditation on bin Laden and US foreign policy--I don't know how available this chapbook is, but everyone shd break their backs trying to obtain a copy from the author, who is currently on vacation, unfortunately [well, unfortunately for would-be consumers, but *very* fortunate for him]) Jennifer Moxley, _The Sense Record_ Juliana Spahr, _Everybody's Autonomy: Connective Reading and Collective Autonomy_ Yuri Tynianov, _The Problem of Verse Language_ (*always* on my desk, it seems--can anyone help me get at exactly what he means by "prohibited preparation"?) Louis Zukofsky, _Prepositions_ ------- Disks & tapes: Beastie Boys, _The In Sound from Way Out_ _Crumb_, Soundtrack Alban Gerhardt, Music for Cello and Piano (Cassado, Ravel, et al.) Misc. Artists, _Country Blues Encores, 1927-35_ (Red Hot Old Man Mose, Charlie Jordan, Skip James, et al.) Misc. Artists, _The Country Girls 1927-35_ (Nellie Florence, Memphis Minnie, Lulu Jackson, et al.) Misc. Artists, Time/Life Hits of the'70s collection (Sammy John, Cymarron, Daniel Boone, et al.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:39:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Larry Rivers (1924-2002) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/15/obituaries/15CND-RIVE.html August 15, 2002 Larry Rivers, Who Shook Up American Art, Is Dead at 78 By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN arry Rivers, the irreverent, proto-Pop painter and sculptor, jazz saxophonist, writer, poet, teacher, sometime actor and filmmaker, whose self-styled, partly self-mocking bad boy persona encapsulated the spirit of a restless era that shook up American art, died on Wednesday at his home in Southampton, on Long Island. He was 78. The cause was cancer of the liver, which was diagnosed this spring. Insecure, an avid reader and lover of poetry, a publicity hound, Mr. Rivers was given in his glory days to cowboy boots, tight pants, inside-out shirts, far-out ties, sometimes two at a time, a black Cadillac and motorcycle. He helped change the course of American art in the 1950's and '60's, but his virtues as an artist always seemed inextricably bound up with his vices, producing work that could be by turns exhilarating and appalling. Naturally, it provoked extreme reactions. Jackson Pollock, Mr. Rivers recalled with a certain bitter glee, "once tried to run down one of my sculptures that was standing in a friend's driveway in East Hampton." He had an omnivorous curiosity about life, sex, drugs, politics, history and culture. "He would stab out at different things, like Picasso, except that more of Picasso's things worked out," said David C. Levy, the Corcoran Gallery of Art's director and a longtime friend, who played with Mr. Rivers in the East 13th Street Band. "Larry had a realistic sense of who he was, so he didn't get caught up in his ego when things failed. At the same time he was probing. He was a very serious man, an intellectual, always reading." He had a sometimes self-destructive penchant for gossip, scandal and outlandishness. "If I have inherited bad taste," he once said, "it is at least compounded with an obnoxious sense of who I am." For a while he was everywhere. He frequented the Cedar bar with de Kooning. He designed sets for Frank O'Hara's "Try! Try!" and for "The Slave and the Toilet" by Amiri Baraka. His sets and costumes for a New York Philharmonic performance of Stravinsky's "Oedipus Rex" conducted by Lukas Foss outraged music critics. He appeared with Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg in Robert Frank and Alfred Leslie's offbeat film "Pull My Daisy," and played Lyndon Johnson on stage in Kenneth Koch's "Election." With Pierre-Dominique Gaisseau, he spent six months making a television travelogue about Africa before being arrested as a suspected white mercenary in Lagos, Nigeria, and nearly being executed. Broadcast in 1968 on NBC's "Experiments in Television," the show was summed up by Barbara Delatiner in Newsday as "something like a Rivers canvas: complex, brilliantly colorful and maybe too tongue-in-cheek for serious consideration." In 1958, he even won $32,000 on "The $64,000 Challenge" quiz show as an art expert. He subsequently said he was slipped an envelope beforehand with the questions in it but proudly declined to look. In his last decades, commercially successful and churning out huge, multimedia works, bloated pastiches of himself and other artists, he fell hard from grace. But at the height of his fame, in the mid-1960's, John Canaday, the New York Times chief art critic, called him "the cleverest, even the foxiest, painter at work in the country," an artist who "can do anything he wants with a brush." That was amazing since Mr. Rivers had come to art almost by accident. As a young saxophonist in a band playing the resort circuit in Maine in 1945, he was shown a book about modern art one day by the band's pianist, Jack Freilicher. "I wanted to say, `What's cubism?" ' Mr. Rivers recalled in his autobiography, "What Did I Do?" "But suddenly I knew what cubism was. Cubism told a young man from the Bronx he didn't know very much. Cubism didn't know about him or his nights walking all over Greenwich Village with his big horn slung over his shoulder looking for a joint where he could sit and blow with a lot of other desperados. Cubism certainly didn't smoke pot or get high, cubism was history in which he played no part. Where could I catch up?" Freilicher's wife was Jane Freilicher, a painter. She handed Mr. Rivers a brush. He turned out to have a natural gift. "After a week or two I began thinking that art was an activity on a `higher level' than jazz," he said. Through Jane Freilicher, he met Nell Blaine, who was working in a semiabstract style. She suggested he enroll in Hans Hofmann's class, which Mr. Rivers did on the G.I. Bill. He played the saxophone at night and drew eight hours a day, absorbing Hofmann's theories about color and form but rebelling against his stress on pure abstraction, which was becoming the dominant mode of American art at a time when Pollock and Rothko were emerging as major figures on the scene. Drawing female nudes in Hofmann's studio in 1947, Mr. Rivers recalled, he ended up with three peculiar rectangles. "You were not supposed to make notice of the fact that you were staring at a vagina," he said. "The art mood of the times dictated that we not recognize a personal sexual reaction as important." By the end of the year he "became frantic to draw the figure." A Bonnard show at the Museum of Modern Art in 1948 pointed a way forward. Mr. Rivers saw that painting figures was not a dead occupation. He began exhibiting the next year. Clement Greenberg, the powerful critic, called him "an amazing beginner," a "better composer of pictures than was Bonnard himself in many instances." (Greenberg later changed his mind and decided Mr. Rivers "stinks.") Mr. Rivers then went to Europe, living in Paris for a few months, where he studied Old Masters, Courbet and Manet. After he returned, he painted "Washington Crossing the Delaware" (1953), a deadpan parody of the salon classic by Emanuel Leutze. He said he was stimulated by Tolstoy's retelling of a national epic in "War and Peace." "I wanted to take something corny and bring it back to life," he said. It reintroduced to American painting a comic tone that the Abstract Expressionists conspicuously lacked. They were not amused. But the work, audacious and clever, the pigments dilute, the space diaphanous and indeterminate, in an ambiguous style that subtly honored past art and modernism while poking fun at both of them, was bought by the Modern and helped pave the way for Pop artists, and their irony, at the end of the 1950's. Mr. Rivers was never strictly a Pop painter himself, however. His unconventionality was particularly idiosyncratic, with elements of underground camp, a touch of nostalgia and a sub-current of tragedy. He was a superb draftsman in the tradition of Degas or Manet, but with an odd tendency toward bravado and self-parody. After "Washington Crossing the Delaware" he painted a lifesize homoerotic portrait of O'Hara nude with boots on. O'Hara was his friend, supporter, occasional lover and collaborator. (Mr. Rivers collaborated with various poets over the years.) A favorite subject was his mother-in-law, Berdie Burger, nude, her flesh sagging, a Rubensian figure. Mr. Rivers said he felt competitive with the Old Masters. He wanted to prove he could paint figures as well as Gericault. His work spoke to old-fashioned ambitions thrust up against a modern world that seemed to have lost faith in them. But it could be so extreme that it was not clear — not even to him, perhaps — whether the result was meant to be, as one critic put it, "therapeutic or traumatic." De Kooning in his obscure but precise way once said that looking at Mr. Rivers's art was "like pressing your face in wet grass," which summed up the mixture of sensations it could provoke. In the 80's, when Mr. Rivers went into the hospital briefly after his heart started fibrillating, he imagined his obituary in The New York Times. "Will it begin at the bottom of the front page, `Genius of the Vulgar Dies at 63' " he asked, "continued inside with one of The Times's awful photos of me and the usual reference to the name my parents gave me?" He was born Yitzroch Loiza Grossberg on Aug. 17, 1923, (although he also claimed to be born in 1925), to Jewish immigrants from the Ukraine. His father was a plumber who became the owner of a small trucking firm. Mr. Rivers recalled working for his father, pushing handcarts through the garment district. He studied piano and fell in love with jazz. A year before his bar mitzvah, he was playing the saxophone on the Borscht Belt circuit in the Catskills. Later, when a comic introduced him and his band as Larry Rivers and the Mudcats, he changed his name. In 1942, over his family's objections, he enlisted in the United States Army Air Corps, and was inducted into the Army band, then honorably discharged because of a tremor in his left hand. He enrolled at Juilliard and studied composition in a class with Miles Davis. They would prepare for exams "by going outside to smoke some marijuana," he said. "We were convinced it would improve our hearing." Through Davis, who was living with Charlie Parker, he met other jazz musicians. He began to tour with various groups. After the war, he married Augusta Burger, the mother of a toddler son, Joseph, whom he later adopted. They had another son, Steven, then divorced. Mr. Rivers raised the boys. O'Hara called the home he set up a "bohemian household" of "staggering complexity." It included Joseph, Steven and Augusta's mother, Berdie, his favorite model until she died in 1957. "She was very easy to live with," Mr. Rivers said. "Nothing threw her. I mean here she was from a very ordinary Jewish background, born in Harlem when Harlem was still Jews, and there were gay guys in my life, and black people and dope addicts, and she would say, `Oh, isn't he nice . . . he's nice . . . Tennessee Williams is nice.' "She was slightly mad." He would return home to the Bronx, his sister Geri recalled (he quoted her in "What Did I Do?"), "in this long overcoat with his strange haircut, saying a lot of things no one understood, telling weird jokes without a punch line and using a lot of `hey man, you dig, man, go, man.' Mamma was beginning to learn how to read and write English in the Communist Party night school when Larry comes around talking black talk." He needed odd jobs to support himself. Once, he became Jack Harris, Famous Artist, to demonstrate ballpoint pens at Hearns Department Store on 14th Street, and also worked as a messenger for Philip Rosenthal, an art-supply house on Broadway, making cashless transactions on the sly to keep his own studio well-stocked. By the 60's, his reputation and notoriety at a peak, he was experimenting widely. The work could be vulgar or lofty. He made sculptures out of plaster casts and welded metal. His "Lampman Loves It" was a sculpture of a couple engaged in intercourse. He collaborated with Jean Tinguely and Yves Klein in Europe. His paintings touched on racial issues, as in works like "The Last Civil War Veteran," "Lynching" and "Black Olympia." He once reconstructed a Harlem tenement front stoop with trash cans from which emanated taped screams and shouts of a family killing a rat. He incorporated more and more everyday things, found objects and popular images into his art, famously using the Dutch Masters cigar box label, based on Rembrandt's "Syndics," in a 1960's series, but also complicating his work with stencils and other lettering devices. His "History of the Russian Revolution" (1965) was a 33-foot, 76-panel project, which his sons helped him build, based on his reading of a biography of Trotsky, made up of boxes, paintings, drawings, a poem, an honor roll, lead pipes, wooden rifles and a machine gun. Mr. Rivers called it "the greatest painting-sculpture-mixed media of the 20th century, or the stupidest." He went on to make images about the Holocaust, and homages to Hollywood. In the 1980's, he undertook a series after Duchamp's "Nude Descending a Staircase," did nine Op-Ed illustrations for The Times, including one of "Reagan Crossing the Caribbean" at the time of the war in Grenada, and, when commissioned to paint the story of the Jews from Moses to Theodore Herzl, produced the three-part "History of Matzo." "In Jewish history," he said, "there's a humorous way of looking at things." Splitting his time between art and music, he played the saxophone with several bands in later years, touring successfully until he died. His daughter Gwynne sometimes sang with him. His East 13th Street Band made commercial recordings in the 80's and early 90's. His last group was called the Climax Band. He is survived by Clarice, a Welsh-born teacher he married in 1961; they were separated but remained married and on friendly terms. He is also survived by their daughters, Gwynne Rivers and Emma Rivers, both of New York City, his sons, Joseph Rivers, of Pleasant Valley, N.Y., Steven Rivers, of Nyack, N.Y., and Sam Deshuk Rivers, his son with Daria Deshuk, a painter he lived with for 10 years. Both of them live in New York City. There are eight grandchildren. His two sisters, Geri Block and Joan Gordon, both of Southampton, also survive him. For the last five years, he lived with Jeni Olin, a poet. A critic once claimed that "the innovations of Rauschenberg and to a lesser degree Johns and the Pop artists are incomprehensible without Rivers." Maybe. It is at least true that Mr. Rivers helped bridge the gulf between Abstract Expressionism and the mass imagery of Pop. At a time when sly figure painting is now back in fashion, his early work seems remarkably fresh and prescient. His willingness to take chances was in the end perhaps his finest quality. About his later unevenness, he said: "I keep shifting my interests. I can have a few months when I have visions of the Holocaust, and then, the next few months I'm suddenly doing something that might be considered trite. Like fashion. Though I really can't make much sense of it, except for the continuation of the absurd in art. "I go from this to that, and why be ashamed of it? It seems to me this is the human experience." _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:54:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Larry Rivers (1923-2002) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed http://www.fi.muni.cz/~toms/PopArt/Biographies/rivers.html Born in 1923 in the Bronx, New York, as Larry Grossberg. In 1940 he began a musical career as a jazz saxophonist and changed his name to Larry Rivers. In 1943 he was declared medically unfit for military service. Until 1945 he worked as a saxophonist in various jazz bands in the New York area. In 1944-45 he studied theory of music and composition at the Juilliard School of Music, New York. His first encounter with fine art was through a musical motif based on a painting by Georges Braque. He began painting in 1945. In 1947-48 he studied at the Hans Hofmann School. In 1948 he studied under William Baziotes at New York University and met Willem de Kooning. In 1949 he had his first one-man exhibition at the Jane Street Gallery, New York. In 1951 he graduated in art from New York University and met Jackson Pollock. His works were subsequently shown by John Myers until 1963. In 1952 he designed the stage set for Frank O'Hara's play "Try! Try!". In 1953 he completed Washington Crossing the Delaware. In 1954 he had his first exhibition of sculptures at the Stable Gallery, New York. In 1956 he began a series of large-format paintings and was included with ten other American artists in the IV. Bienal Do Museu de Arte Moderna de São Paulo, Brazil. In 1958 he spent a month in Paris and played in various jazz bands. He also collaborated with the poet Kenneth Koch on the collection of picture-poems New York 1959-1960. In 1961 he married Clarice Price, an art and music teacher of Welsh extraction. In 1965 he had his first comprehensive retrospective in five important American museums. His final work for the exhibition was The History of the Russian Revolution. Until 1967 he was in London collaborating with Howard Kanovitz. In 1967 he became separated from his wife Clarice. He travelled in Central Africa and made the TV-documentary Africa and I with Pierre Gaisseau. In 1969 he began to use spray cans, in 1970 the air brush, and later, video tapes. In 1972 he taught at the University of California in Santa Barbara. In 1973 he had exhibitions in Brussels and New York. In 1974 he finished his japan series. He was represented at the documenta "6", Kassel, in 1977. In 1978 he began his Golden Oldies Series, revising his own works of the fifties and sixties. In 1980-81 he was given his first European retrospective at Hanover, Munich and Berlin. http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/rivers_larry.html http://spaightwoodgalleries.com/Pages/Rivers.html http://www.tibordenagy.com/artists/rivers.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:40:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Spiral Bridge Subject: Just a Reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spiral Bridge Writers Guild requests your presence as we continue to = present reverberations of the soul... Your Spiral Bridge Horoscope August 18, 2002 is an auspicious day to join your energies with other = larger-than-life personalities.. The influence of Leo on your = astrological configuration can only indicate a fabulous party filled = with charismatic freaks, enigmatic beauty, gorgeous egos and decadent = delirium. It is a favorable time to enjoy a mind-blowing open mic. = poetry reading and musical extravaganza at the first of many = celebrations at our new home in Montclair at the Bloomfield Ave. Caf=E9 = & Stage. Witness the Re-Birth of The Naked Readings and join us from 6pm = to Midnight as we celebrate the births of all our Leo friends. Come and help Spiral Bridge awaken this space of Love, music, art, magic = and Beauty. Wear your halo and your skimpies, 'cause baby, it's gonna be hot! Traditional African Rhythms by Gina Ferrara and Mapuka=20 The Funk shall be served courtesy of BROWN Bloomfield Ave. Caf=E9 & Stage 347 Bloomfield Ave. Montclair, NJ Sunday August 18, 2002 6pm-Midnight www.SpiralBridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:33:00 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Larry Rivers (1924-2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One of Rivers' best (and to me most moving) performances was his intense heartfelt oration at O'Hara's funeral.... I only hope someone will do him similarly well.... c Jim Behrle wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/15/obituaries/15CND-RIVE.html > > August 15, 2002 > Larry Rivers, Who Shook Up American Art, Is Dead at 78 > By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN > > arry Rivers, the irreverent, proto-Pop painter and sculptor, jazz > saxophonist, writer, poet, teacher, sometime actor and filmmaker, whose > self-styled, partly self-mocking bad boy persona encapsulated the spirit of > a restless era that shook up American art, died on Wednesday at his home in > Southampton, on Long Island. He was 78. > > The cause was cancer of the liver, which was diagnosed this spring. > > Insecure, an avid reader and lover of poetry, a publicity hound, Mr. Rivers > was given in his glory days to cowboy boots, tight pants, inside-out shirts, > far-out ties, sometimes two at a time, a black Cadillac and motorcycle. > > He helped change the course of American art in the 1950's and '60's, but his > virtues as an artist always seemed inextricably bound up with his vices, > producing work that could be by turns exhilarating and appalling. Naturally, > it provoked extreme reactions. Jackson Pollock, Mr. Rivers recalled with a > certain bitter glee, "once tried to run down one of my sculptures that was > standing in a friend's driveway in East Hampton." > > He had an omnivorous curiosity about life, sex, drugs, politics, history and > culture. "He would stab out at different things, like Picasso, except that > more of Picasso's things worked out," said David C. Levy, the Corcoran > Gallery of Art's director and a longtime friend, who played with Mr. Rivers > in the East 13th Street Band. "Larry had a realistic sense of who he was, so > he didn't get caught up in his ego when things failed. At the same time he > was probing. He was a very serious man, an intellectual, always reading." > > He had a sometimes self-destructive penchant for gossip, scandal and > outlandishness. "If I have inherited bad taste," he once said, "it is at > least compounded with an obnoxious sense of who I am." For a while he was > everywhere. He frequented the Cedar bar with de Kooning. He designed sets > for Frank O'Hara's "Try! Try!" and for "The Slave and the Toilet" by Amiri > Baraka. His sets and costumes for a New York Philharmonic performance of > Stravinsky's "Oedipus Rex" conducted by Lukas Foss outraged music critics. > > He appeared with Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg in Robert Frank and Alfred > Leslie's offbeat film "Pull My Daisy," and played Lyndon Johnson on stage in > Kenneth Koch's "Election." With Pierre-Dominique Gaisseau, he spent six > months making a television travelogue about Africa before being arrested as > a suspected white mercenary in Lagos, Nigeria, and nearly being executed. > Broadcast in 1968 on NBC's "Experiments in Television," the show was summed > up by Barbara Delatiner in Newsday as "something like a Rivers canvas: > complex, brilliantly colorful and maybe too tongue-in-cheek for serious > consideration." > > In 1958, he even won $32,000 on "The $64,000 Challenge" quiz show as an art > expert. He subsequently said he was slipped an envelope beforehand with the > questions in it but proudly declined to look. > > In his last decades, commercially successful and churning out huge, > multimedia works, bloated pastiches of himself and other artists, he fell > hard from grace. But at the height of his fame, in the mid-1960's, John > Canaday, the New York Times chief art critic, called him "the cleverest, > even the foxiest, painter at work in the country," an artist who "can do > anything he wants with a brush." > > That was amazing since Mr. Rivers had come to art almost by accident. As a > young saxophonist in a band playing the resort circuit in Maine in 1945, he > was shown a book about modern art one day by the band's pianist, Jack > Freilicher. > > "I wanted to say, `What's cubism?" ' Mr. Rivers recalled in his > autobiography, "What Did I Do?" "But suddenly I knew what cubism was. Cubism > told a young man from the Bronx he didn't know very much. Cubism didn't know > about him or his nights walking all over Greenwich Village with his big horn > slung over his shoulder looking for a joint where he could sit and blow with > a lot of other desperados. Cubism certainly didn't smoke pot or get high, > cubism was history in which he played no part. Where could I catch up?" > > Freilicher's wife was Jane Freilicher, a painter. She handed Mr. Rivers a > brush. He turned out to have a natural gift. "After a week or two I began > thinking that art was an activity on a `higher level' than jazz," he said. > > Through Jane Freilicher, he met Nell Blaine, who was working in a > semiabstract style. She suggested he enroll in Hans Hofmann's class, which > Mr. Rivers did on the G.I. Bill. He played the saxophone at night and drew > eight hours a day, absorbing Hofmann's theories about color and form but > rebelling against his stress on pure abstraction, which was becoming the > dominant mode of American art at a time when Pollock and Rothko were > emerging as major figures on the scene. > > Drawing female nudes in Hofmann's studio in 1947, Mr. Rivers recalled, he > ended up with three peculiar rectangles. "You were not supposed to make > notice of the fact that you were staring at a vagina," he said. "The art > mood of the times dictated that we not recognize a personal sexual reaction > as important." By the end of the year he "became frantic to draw the > figure." > > A Bonnard show at the Museum of Modern Art in 1948 pointed a way forward. > Mr. Rivers saw that painting figures was not a dead occupation. He began > exhibiting the next year. Clement Greenberg, the powerful critic, called him > "an amazing beginner," a "better composer of pictures than was Bonnard > himself in many instances." (Greenberg later changed his mind and decided > Mr. Rivers "stinks.") > > Mr. Rivers then went to Europe, living in Paris for a few months, where he > studied Old Masters, Courbet and Manet. After he returned, he painted > "Washington Crossing the Delaware" (1953), a deadpan parody of the salon > classic by Emanuel Leutze. He said he was stimulated by Tolstoy's retelling > of a national epic in "War and Peace." "I wanted to take something corny and > bring it back to life," he said. > > It reintroduced to American painting a comic tone that the Abstract > Expressionists conspicuously lacked. They were not amused. But the work, > audacious and clever, the pigments dilute, the space diaphanous and > indeterminate, in an ambiguous style that subtly honored past art and > modernism while poking fun at both of them, was bought by the Modern and > helped pave the way for Pop artists, and their irony, at the end of the > 1950's. > > Mr. Rivers was never strictly a Pop painter himself, however. His > unconventionality was particularly idiosyncratic, with elements of > underground camp, a touch of nostalgia and a sub-current of tragedy. He was > a superb draftsman in the tradition of Degas or Manet, but with an odd > tendency toward bravado and self-parody. After "Washington Crossing the > Delaware" he painted a lifesize homoerotic portrait of O'Hara nude with > boots on. O'Hara was his friend, supporter, occasional lover and > collaborator. (Mr. Rivers collaborated with various poets over the years.) > > A favorite subject was his mother-in-law, Berdie Burger, nude, her flesh > sagging, a Rubensian figure. Mr. Rivers said he felt competitive with the > Old Masters. He wanted to prove he could paint figures as well as Gericault. > His work spoke to old-fashioned ambitions thrust up against a modern world > that seemed to have lost faith in them. > > But it could be so extreme that it was not clear — not even to him, perhaps > — whether the result was meant to be, as one critic put it, "therapeutic or > traumatic." De Kooning in his obscure but precise way once said that looking > at Mr. Rivers's art was "like pressing your face in wet grass," which summed > up the mixture of sensations it could provoke. > > In the 80's, when Mr. Rivers went into the hospital briefly after his heart > started fibrillating, he imagined his obituary in The New York Times. "Will > it begin at the bottom of the front page, `Genius of the Vulgar Dies at 63' > " he asked, "continued inside with one of The Times's awful photos of me and > the usual reference to the name my parents gave me?" > > He was born Yitzroch Loiza Grossberg on Aug. 17, 1923, (although he also > claimed to be born in 1925), to Jewish immigrants from the Ukraine. His > father was a plumber who became the owner of a small trucking firm. Mr. > Rivers recalled working for his father, pushing handcarts through the > garment district. He studied piano and fell in love with jazz. A year before > his bar mitzvah, he was playing the saxophone on the Borscht Belt circuit in > the Catskills. Later, when a comic introduced him and his band as Larry > Rivers and the Mudcats, he changed his name. > > In 1942, over his family's objections, he enlisted in the United States Army > Air Corps, and was inducted into the Army band, then honorably discharged > because of a tremor in his left hand. He enrolled at Juilliard and studied > composition in a class with Miles Davis. They would prepare for exams "by > going outside to smoke some marijuana," he said. "We were convinced it would > improve our hearing." Through Davis, who was living with Charlie Parker, he > met other jazz musicians. He began to tour with various groups. > > After the war, he married Augusta Burger, the mother of a toddler son, > Joseph, whom he later adopted. They had another son, Steven, then divorced. > Mr. Rivers raised the boys. O'Hara called the home he set up a "bohemian > household" of "staggering complexity." It included Joseph, Steven and > Augusta's mother, Berdie, his favorite model until she died in 1957. "She > was very easy to live with," Mr. Rivers said. "Nothing threw her. I mean > here she was from a very ordinary Jewish background, born in Harlem when > Harlem was still Jews, and there were gay guys in my life, and black people > and dope addicts, and she would say, `Oh, isn't he nice . . . he's nice . . > . Tennessee Williams is nice.' > > "She was slightly mad." > > He would return home to the Bronx, his sister Geri recalled (he quoted her > in "What Did I Do?"), "in this long overcoat with his strange haircut, > saying a lot of things no one understood, telling weird jokes without a > punch line and using a lot of `hey man, you dig, man, go, man.' Mamma was > beginning to learn how to read and write English in the Communist Party > night school when Larry comes around talking black talk." > > He needed odd jobs to support himself. Once, he became Jack Harris, Famous > Artist, to demonstrate ballpoint pens at Hearns Department Store on 14th > Street, and also worked as a messenger for Philip Rosenthal, an art-supply > house on Broadway, making cashless transactions on the sly to keep his own > studio well-stocked. > > By the 60's, his reputation and notoriety at a peak, he was experimenting > widely. The work could be vulgar or lofty. He made sculptures out of plaster > casts and welded metal. His "Lampman Loves It" was a sculpture of a couple > engaged in intercourse. He collaborated with Jean Tinguely and Yves Klein in > Europe. His paintings touched on racial issues, as in works like "The Last > Civil War Veteran," "Lynching" and "Black Olympia." He once reconstructed a > Harlem tenement front stoop with trash cans from which emanated taped > screams and shouts of a family killing a rat. > > He incorporated more and more everyday things, found objects and popular > images into his art, famously using the Dutch Masters cigar box label, based > on Rembrandt's "Syndics," in a 1960's series, but also complicating his work > with stencils and other lettering devices. > > His "History of the Russian Revolution" (1965) was a 33-foot, 76-panel > project, which his sons helped him build, based on his reading of a > biography of Trotsky, made up of boxes, paintings, drawings, a poem, an > honor roll, lead pipes, wooden rifles and a machine gun. Mr. Rivers called > it "the greatest painting-sculpture-mixed media of the 20th century, or the > stupidest." > > He went on to make images about the Holocaust, and homages to Hollywood. In > the 1980's, he undertook a series after Duchamp's "Nude Descending a > Staircase," did nine Op-Ed illustrations for The Times, including one of > "Reagan Crossing the Caribbean" at the time of the war in Grenada, and, when > commissioned to paint the story of the Jews from Moses to Theodore Herzl, > produced the three-part "History of Matzo." "In Jewish history," he said, > "there's a humorous way of looking at things." > > Splitting his time between art and music, he played the saxophone with > several bands in later years, touring successfully until he died. His > daughter Gwynne sometimes sang with him. His East 13th Street Band made > commercial recordings in the 80's and early 90's. His last group was called > the Climax Band. > > He is survived by Clarice, a Welsh-born teacher he married in 1961; they > were separated but remained married and on friendly terms. He is also > survived by their daughters, Gwynne Rivers and Emma Rivers, both of New York > City, his sons, Joseph Rivers, of Pleasant Valley, N.Y., Steven Rivers, of > Nyack, N.Y., and Sam Deshuk Rivers, his son with Daria Deshuk, a painter he > lived with for 10 years. Both of them live in New York City. There are eight > grandchildren. > > His two sisters, Geri Block and Joan Gordon, both of Southampton, also > survive him. For the last five years, he lived with Jeni Olin, a poet. > > A critic once claimed that "the innovations of Rauschenberg and to a lesser > degree Johns and the Pop artists are incomprehensible without Rivers." > Maybe. It is at least true that Mr. Rivers helped bridge the gulf between > Abstract Expressionism and the mass imagery of Pop. At a time when sly > figure painting is now back in fashion, his early work seems remarkably > fresh and prescient. His willingness to take chances was in the end perhaps > his finest quality. > > About his later unevenness, he said: "I keep shifting my interests. I can > have a few months when I have visions of the Holocaust, and then, the next > few months I'm suddenly doing something that might be considered trite. Like > fashion. Though I really can't make much sense of it, except for the > continuation of the absurd in art. > > "I go from this to that, and why be ashamed of it? It seems to me this is > the human experience." > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:51:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sweet song of love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sweet song of love naked, i am dying of love, sweet song, mesmeric one last kiss, one last note, one touch naked, thou hast cast me into this role one last kiss, one last note, one touch please, i can live no longer like this one last kiss, one last note, one touch she leaves so quickly now, almost in a faint one last kiss, one last note, one touch her staring is uncanny, almost as if one last kiss, one last note, one touch applause from an audience of thousands one last kiss, one last note, one touch degradation beyond belief one last kiss, one last note, one touch degradation beyond degradation one last kiss, one last note, one touch put your tongue up me, show them who is mesmerized one last kiss, one last note, one touch i cannot, will not, live without you one last kiss, one last note, one touch i will kill you but my voice must be preserved one last kiss, one last note, one touch drinking her urine in front of the invited guests one last kiss, one last note, one touch licking her feet one last kiss, one last note, one touch evening primrose one last kiss, one last note, one touch long white gown falling open from her shoulders one last kiss, one last note, one touch hands trembling in the air one last kiss, one last note, one touch manipulation behind the scenes one last kiss, one last note, one touch miraculous singing one last kiss, one last note, one touch breathing deeply one last kiss, one last note, one touch entering one last kiss, one last note, one touch songster of the night one last kiss, one last note, one touch rosy nipples one last kiss, one last note, one touch full breasts one last kiss, one last note, one touch ectoplasm one last kiss, one last note, one touch hypnotize one last kiss, one last note, one touch mesmerism one last kiss, one last note, one touch _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:48:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The 165 Character Manifesto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The 165 Character Manifesto All too often, we hear that postmodernity has eliminated, or at least called into question, the relationship of natural world, wilderness, to manageriality. This is prefabricated on assumption no longer can nature be taken for granted, in-itself primordial. Instead, world fabricated, constructed, managed, undergoing continuous cultural transformation - augmented by global communications systems. I wish propose an 'other hand,' however - one based both atmosphere and cosmos. Clearly, atmospheric pollution, stratospheric extends vertically; doubts it reaches ionospheric levels, even if so, inaccessibly-high finite vastness universe beckons beyond. Consider this, then consider traumas earth itself earthquakes other 'natural disasters,' latter hurricanes example human activity. From above, from below, volcanos, magmas held taut within mesh universal chaos. Human encroach; have not yet contaminated stars, earth-orbital trash infinitesimal danger, compared errant asteroid. The point? That artificial are porous, species-dependent terms, sun clearly indicative our own miserable fabrications... There remains wilderness preserved, avoid this uncomfortable conclusion 'annihilation limit' seems a far easier, almost comfortable, way, deal with what appears slaughter... _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:09:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some things I'm reading lately: _lingo_ by William Allegrezza: impressive debut chapbook from the editor of _moria_ * _Learning to Count_ by Alberta Turner * Pentti Saarikoski's work in _The Vintage Book of Contemporary World Poetry_ (looking for more by this Finnish poet) * _The Harlem Gallery_ by Melvin B. Tolson * Daniil Kharms . . . complete work is on the internet at Bengali poet Shamsur Rahman (in translation on the web), in honor of my companion John Clark's recent visit to Bangladesh . . . some has a streak of the absurd _The Story of Writing_ by Andrew Robinson (gorgeously illustrated!) plus anything I can find on the web about Rongorongo, the writing of Easter Island _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue_, by Merritt Ruhlen . . . lets you engage in detective work comparing languages of the world *thanks to the "adventureland of underrated poets" at Taverner's Koan for recommending these & more: Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:41:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Larry Rivers (1924-2002) In-Reply-To: <3D5C2C1B.81D4AA5A@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chris how do you know about this? I mean, where is it? best, Tenney > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Chris Stroffolino > Stroffolino > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:33 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Larry Rivers (1924-2002) > > > One of Rivers' best (and to me most moving) performances > was his intense heartfelt oration at O'Hara's funeral.... > I only hope someone will do him similarly well.... > > c > > Jim Behrle wrote: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/15/obituaries/15CND-RIVE.html > > > > August 15, 2002 > > Larry Rivers, Who Shook Up American Art, Is Dead at 78 > > By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN > > > > arry Rivers, the irreverent, proto-Pop painter and sculptor, jazz > > saxophonist, writer, poet, teacher, sometime actor and filmmaker, whose > > self-styled, partly self-mocking bad boy persona encapsulated > the spirit of > > a restless era that shook up American art, died on Wednesday at > his home in > > Southampton, on Long Island. He was 78. > > > > The cause was cancer of the liver, which was diagnosed this spring. > > > > Insecure, an avid reader and lover of poetry, a publicity > hound, Mr. Rivers > > was given in his glory days to cowboy boots, tight pants, > inside-out shirts, > > far-out ties, sometimes two at a time, a black Cadillac and motorcycle. > > > > He helped change the course of American art in the 1950's and > '60's, but his > > virtues as an artist always seemed inextricably bound up with his vices, > > producing work that could be by turns exhilarating and > appalling. Naturally, > > it provoked extreme reactions. Jackson Pollock, Mr. Rivers > recalled with a > > certain bitter glee, "once tried to run down one of my > sculptures that was > > standing in a friend's driveway in East Hampton." > > > > He had an omnivorous curiosity about life, sex, drugs, > politics, history and > > culture. "He would stab out at different things, like Picasso, > except that > > more of Picasso's things worked out," said David C. Levy, the Corcoran > > Gallery of Art's director and a longtime friend, who played > with Mr. Rivers > > in the East 13th Street Band. "Larry had a realistic sense of > who he was, so > > he didn't get caught up in his ego when things failed. At the > same time he > > was probing. He was a very serious man, an intellectual, always > reading." > > > > He had a sometimes self-destructive penchant for gossip, scandal and > > outlandishness. "If I have inherited bad taste," he once said, "it is at > > least compounded with an obnoxious sense of who I am." For a > while he was > > everywhere. He frequented the Cedar bar with de Kooning. He > designed sets > > for Frank O'Hara's "Try! Try!" and for "The Slave and the > Toilet" by Amiri > > Baraka. His sets and costumes for a New York Philharmonic performance of > > Stravinsky's "Oedipus Rex" conducted by Lukas Foss outraged > music critics. > > > > He appeared with Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg in Robert > Frank and Alfred > > Leslie's offbeat film "Pull My Daisy," and played Lyndon > Johnson on stage in > > Kenneth Koch's "Election." With Pierre-Dominique Gaisseau, he spent six > > months making a television travelogue about Africa before being > arrested as > > a suspected white mercenary in Lagos, Nigeria, and nearly being > executed. > > Broadcast in 1968 on NBC's "Experiments in Television," the > show was summed > > up by Barbara Delatiner in Newsday as "something like a Rivers canvas: > > complex, brilliantly colorful and maybe too tongue-in-cheek for serious > > consideration." > > > > In 1958, he even won $32,000 on "The $64,000 Challenge" quiz > show as an art > > expert. He subsequently said he was slipped an envelope > beforehand with the > > questions in it but proudly declined to look. > > > > In his last decades, commercially successful and churning out huge, > > multimedia works, bloated pastiches of himself and other > artists, he fell > > hard from grace. But at the height of his fame, in the mid-1960's, John > > Canaday, the New York Times chief art critic, called him "the cleverest, > > even the foxiest, painter at work in the country," an artist who "can do > > anything he wants with a brush." > > > > That was amazing since Mr. Rivers had come to art almost by > accident. As a > > young saxophonist in a band playing the resort circuit in Maine > in 1945, he > > was shown a book about modern art one day by the band's pianist, Jack > > Freilicher. > > > > "I wanted to say, `What's cubism?" ' Mr. Rivers recalled in his > > autobiography, "What Did I Do?" "But suddenly I knew what > cubism was. Cubism > > told a young man from the Bronx he didn't know very much. > Cubism didn't know > > about him or his nights walking all over Greenwich Village with > his big horn > > slung over his shoulder looking for a joint where he could sit > and blow with > > a lot of other desperados. Cubism certainly didn't smoke pot or > get high, > > cubism was history in which he played no part. Where could I catch up?" > > > > Freilicher's wife was Jane Freilicher, a painter. She handed > Mr. Rivers a > > brush. He turned out to have a natural gift. "After a week or > two I began > > thinking that art was an activity on a `higher level' than > jazz," he said. > > > > Through Jane Freilicher, he met Nell Blaine, who was working in a > > semiabstract style. She suggested he enroll in Hans Hofmann's > class, which > > Mr. Rivers did on the G.I. Bill. He played the saxophone at > night and drew > > eight hours a day, absorbing Hofmann's theories about color and form but > > rebelling against his stress on pure abstraction, which was becoming the > > dominant mode of American art at a time when Pollock and Rothko were > > emerging as major figures on the scene. > > > > Drawing female nudes in Hofmann's studio in 1947, Mr. Rivers > recalled, he > > ended up with three peculiar rectangles. "You were not supposed to make > > notice of the fact that you were staring at a vagina," he said. "The art > > mood of the times dictated that we not recognize a personal > sexual reaction > > as important." By the end of the year he "became frantic to draw the > > figure." > > > > A Bonnard show at the Museum of Modern Art in 1948 pointed a > way forward. > > Mr. Rivers saw that painting figures was not a dead occupation. He began > > exhibiting the next year. Clement Greenberg, the powerful > critic, called him > > "an amazing beginner," a "better composer of pictures than was Bonnard > > himself in many instances." (Greenberg later changed his mind > and decided > > Mr. Rivers "stinks.") > > > > Mr. Rivers then went to Europe, living in Paris for a few > months, where he > > studied Old Masters, Courbet and Manet. After he returned, he painted > > "Washington Crossing the Delaware" (1953), a deadpan parody of the salon > > classic by Emanuel Leutze. He said he was stimulated by > Tolstoy's retelling > > of a national epic in "War and Peace." "I wanted to take > something corny and > > bring it back to life," he said. > > > > It reintroduced to American painting a comic tone that the Abstract > > Expressionists conspicuously lacked. They were not amused. But the work, > > audacious and clever, the pigments dilute, the space diaphanous and > > indeterminate, in an ambiguous style that subtly honored past art and > > modernism while poking fun at both of them, was bought by the Modern and > > helped pave the way for Pop artists, and their irony, at the end of the > > 1950's. > > > > Mr. Rivers was never strictly a Pop painter himself, however. His > > unconventionality was particularly idiosyncratic, with elements of > > underground camp, a touch of nostalgia and a sub-current of > tragedy. He was > > a superb draftsman in the tradition of Degas or Manet, but with an odd > > tendency toward bravado and self-parody. After "Washington Crossing the > > Delaware" he painted a lifesize homoerotic portrait of O'Hara nude with > > boots on. O'Hara was his friend, supporter, occasional lover and > > collaborator. (Mr. Rivers collaborated with various poets over > the years.) > > > > A favorite subject was his mother-in-law, Berdie Burger, nude, her flesh > > sagging, a Rubensian figure. Mr. Rivers said he felt > competitive with the > > Old Masters. He wanted to prove he could paint figures as well > as Gericault. > > His work spoke to old-fashioned ambitions thrust up against a > modern world > > that seemed to have lost faith in them. > > > > But it could be so extreme that it was not clear — not even to > him, perhaps > > — whether the result was meant to be, as one critic put it, > "therapeutic or > > traumatic." De Kooning in his obscure but precise way once said > that looking > > at Mr. Rivers's art was "like pressing your face in wet grass," > which summed > > up the mixture of sensations it could provoke. > > > > In the 80's, when Mr. Rivers went into the hospital briefly > after his heart > > started fibrillating, he imagined his obituary in The New York > Times. "Will > > it begin at the bottom of the front page, `Genius of the Vulgar > Dies at 63' > > " he asked, "continued inside with one of The Times's awful > photos of me and > > the usual reference to the name my parents gave me?" > > > > He was born Yitzroch Loiza Grossberg on Aug. 17, 1923, (although he also > > claimed to be born in 1925), to Jewish immigrants from the Ukraine. His > > father was a plumber who became the owner of a small trucking firm. Mr. > > Rivers recalled working for his father, pushing handcarts through the > > garment district. He studied piano and fell in love with jazz. > A year before > > his bar mitzvah, he was playing the saxophone on the Borscht > Belt circuit in > > the Catskills. Later, when a comic introduced him and his band as Larry > > Rivers and the Mudcats, he changed his name. > > > > In 1942, over his family's objections, he enlisted in the > United States Army > > Air Corps, and was inducted into the Army band, then honorably > discharged > > because of a tremor in his left hand. He enrolled at Juilliard > and studied > > composition in a class with Miles Davis. They would prepare for > exams "by > > going outside to smoke some marijuana," he said. "We were > convinced it would > > improve our hearing." Through Davis, who was living with > Charlie Parker, he > > met other jazz musicians. He began to tour with various groups. > > > > After the war, he married Augusta Burger, the mother of a toddler son, > > Joseph, whom he later adopted. They had another son, Steven, > then divorced. > > Mr. Rivers raised the boys. O'Hara called the home he set up a "bohemian > > household" of "staggering complexity." It included Joseph, Steven and > > Augusta's mother, Berdie, his favorite model until she died in > 1957. "She > > was very easy to live with," Mr. Rivers said. "Nothing threw her. I mean > > here she was from a very ordinary Jewish background, born in Harlem when > > Harlem was still Jews, and there were gay guys in my life, and > black people > > and dope addicts, and she would say, `Oh, isn't he nice . . . > he's nice . . > > . Tennessee Williams is nice.' > > > > "She was slightly mad." > > > > He would return home to the Bronx, his sister Geri recalled (he > quoted her > > in "What Did I Do?"), "in this long overcoat with his strange haircut, > > saying a lot of things no one understood, telling weird jokes without a > > punch line and using a lot of `hey man, you dig, man, go, man.' > Mamma was > > beginning to learn how to read and write English in the Communist Party > > night school when Larry comes around talking black talk." > > > > He needed odd jobs to support himself. Once, he became Jack > Harris, Famous > > Artist, to demonstrate ballpoint pens at Hearns Department Store on 14th > > Street, and also worked as a messenger for Philip Rosenthal, an > art-supply > > house on Broadway, making cashless transactions on the sly to > keep his own > > studio well-stocked. > > > > By the 60's, his reputation and notoriety at a peak, he was > experimenting > > widely. The work could be vulgar or lofty. He made sculptures > out of plaster > > casts and welded metal. His "Lampman Loves It" was a sculpture > of a couple > > engaged in intercourse. He collaborated with Jean Tinguely and > Yves Klein in > > Europe. His paintings touched on racial issues, as in works > like "The Last > > Civil War Veteran," "Lynching" and "Black Olympia." He once > reconstructed a > > Harlem tenement front stoop with trash cans from which emanated taped > > screams and shouts of a family killing a rat. > > > > He incorporated more and more everyday things, found objects and popular > > images into his art, famously using the Dutch Masters cigar box > label, based > > on Rembrandt's "Syndics," in a 1960's series, but also > complicating his work > > with stencils and other lettering devices. > > > > His "History of the Russian Revolution" (1965) was a 33-foot, 76-panel > > project, which his sons helped him build, based on his reading of a > > biography of Trotsky, made up of boxes, paintings, drawings, a poem, an > > honor roll, lead pipes, wooden rifles and a machine gun. Mr. > Rivers called > > it "the greatest painting-sculpture-mixed media of the 20th > century, or the > > stupidest." > > > > He went on to make images about the Holocaust, and homages to > Hollywood. In > > the 1980's, he undertook a series after Duchamp's "Nude Descending a > > Staircase," did nine Op-Ed illustrations for The Times, including one of > > "Reagan Crossing the Caribbean" at the time of the war in > Grenada, and, when > > commissioned to paint the story of the Jews from Moses to > Theodore Herzl, > > produced the three-part "History of Matzo." "In Jewish > history," he said, > > "there's a humorous way of looking at things." > > > > Splitting his time between art and music, he played the saxophone with > > several bands in later years, touring successfully until he died. His > > daughter Gwynne sometimes sang with him. His East 13th Street Band made > > commercial recordings in the 80's and early 90's. His last > group was called > > the Climax Band. > > > > He is survived by Clarice, a Welsh-born teacher he married in 1961; they > > were separated but remained married and on friendly terms. He is also > > survived by their daughters, Gwynne Rivers and Emma Rivers, > both of New York > > City, his sons, Joseph Rivers, of Pleasant Valley, N.Y., Steven > Rivers, of > > Nyack, N.Y., and Sam Deshuk Rivers, his son with Daria Deshuk, > a painter he > > lived with for 10 years. Both of them live in New York City. > There are eight > > grandchildren. > > > > His two sisters, Geri Block and Joan Gordon, both of Southampton, also > > survive him. For the last five years, he lived with Jeni Olin, a poet. > > > > A critic once claimed that "the innovations of Rauschenberg and > to a lesser > > degree Johns and the Pop artists are incomprehensible without Rivers." > > Maybe. It is at least true that Mr. Rivers helped bridge the > gulf between > > Abstract Expressionism and the mass imagery of Pop. At a time when sly > > figure painting is now back in fashion, his early work seems remarkably > > fresh and prescient. His willingness to take chances was in the > end perhaps > > his finest quality. > > > > About his later unevenness, he said: "I keep shifting my > interests. I can > > have a few months when I have visions of the Holocaust, and > then, the next > > few months I'm suddenly doing something that might be > considered trite. Like > > fashion. Though I really can't make much sense of it, except for the > > continuation of the absurd in art. > > > > "I go from this to that, and why be ashamed of it? It seems to > me this is > > the human experience." > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: books & music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I typically only use poetics to read up on events and publications, or = otherwise "lurk" - however, I love making and reading lists, so here's = my offering. Books (on my desk) - Sholem, Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism - One of the most dramatic = works of strict scholarship I've ever read. Hejinian, Slowly & The Beginner=20 Taylor - Erring: A Postmodern A/Theology - This book is really bad. = Reading it is a sick kind of pleasure. Mac Low - Struggle Through Music - Coolidge - Polaroid (a cassette from "S-Press" in Dusseldorf)=20 Kenning 12 / WAY - I actually find it a good listen. Sonic Youth - Murray Street=20 V/A - Studio One Roots - The most instensely Rastafarian selections from = the plentiful vaults of Jamaica's greatest production house (now = relocated to Brooklyn) V/A - One of those Document compilations ("Alabama: Black Secular and = Religious Music") featuring the collected works of the great and = criminally ignored Moses Mason. - Patrick K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:04:57 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: An unpleasant harrassment note from an anonymous figure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just love the anonymous harrassment e-mail that results from this list. At least this particular one did not come with a virus attached. This time. -----Original Message----- From: SwilliNola@aol.com [mailto:SwilliNola@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:05 PM To: patrick@proximate.org Subject: Re: WM, 31, 170#, I like dancing, music, dining out, poetry, having fun Hey Bud- You like women? How 'bout listening to/reading a few? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 05:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: books & music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On my desk right now: Life Style by Bruce Mau S, M, L, XL by Rem Koolhaas & Bruce Mau The Activist Drawing, de Zegher & Wigley, eds. (book on Situationist architecture, specifically the work of Constant) The City Reader, LeGates & Stout, eds. The Disparities by Rodrigo Toscano Arrival by Sarah Anne Cox Slowly by Lyn Hejinian XCP #10 Spinoza in Her Youth by Norma Cole Aufgabe #10 Music: Old rap albums (Erik B & Rakim, Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E., Public Enemy, B.D.P.) Three albums by Bob Marley: Survival, Confrontation, & Uprising All Time Greatest Hits, Barry White ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:58:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Reading/ Listening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Zohar Vol. 3.--Sperling trans. Woyzek Pope's selected Listening to Berg's Wozzeck Berg--Three Orchestral Pieces Op. 6 Bumsteinas & Glass--4 Songs from Shaw Opera Krutzen & Glass--Mayakovsky is Dead & Puppet Psalms ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:13:19 -0700 Reply-To: Soli Psis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Soli Psis Subject: my native speach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my native speach me pullum rope, me hang hung, me pullum hang rope pullum me, me hang rope hung, hang me pullum they had an iron cottage, an iron dog, an iron door, an iron flowerbox, there was an iron roof over the iron boat, ironing, the iron woman would = look to the iron man, smoking his iron pipe, and say, "iron.." Little by little, the largeness arrived. We stacked it among the pelts = and rain barriers. O'Grady would sit near the great oaken worm casque = and discuss options with a pedestal. It looked like winter could display = a better fork for tines, no matter, in times. For every film, there is a = burden. Shifting wants. You can't be all famous teeth and freckles for a = sandwich and get by that way when the winsome and weary tides lower the = boom. It shook up. You should see the rats glowing in the night here, = they arrange themselves like undulating sheets of linguiform lichen on = the stone of time. What rot for a burley basket. Girders shift in the = empty horizon. Planets leap up from the grocery wagons across the marsh = and still the huddling classics launch their proud masks into the = circuitry stalls.. Ten yawning tin-magnates. O 1 Look orange K T Long Task P 4 tried Plate 0 ) limp fuel For every rape in Johannesberg, there are even more monkey-heads in = Dhakar.. The beautiful artisans lower their eyelids into the forrests. Magnetic stones in the heads of whales. 1.and animal song 2.and animal song 3.and animal song 4.and animal song 5.and animal song 6.and animal song 7.and animal song 8.and animal song 9.and animal song 10.and animal song Beulah, my good and ancient manatee, come to me, my mermaid grey and = wrinkled as a granpapabrainmyrtle.. let me tattoo salamanders on the bright petals of your groaning kisses build a bird house of giant leaves in the river where you pause and wink = to cloud sit amongst your brethren and carress their curses with my soft broad = wooden spoon, my tongue long, wide, and shorn of its locks and thistles.. I sweep bulbs from the shining porches along the river emblem.. perches = flinging through the head-lice.. melt with the pantoola of the heeler-wasp.. Palalti wheen-o-hay gleams = among the sugar den.. prey furs the capsided woolmote tannins.. Bleed your weasley calliope, Prine.. A cask of feelers under a = swarth-sunned breech-cabin curr.. my cock is heavy under the udder and dry my lips dance along the membrane catching on the animal spines = you left last year in your thralling.. Hunt me.. My hips are wide and my meat fine.. my long green tail studded with = throbbing ovules of singing black sap.. creep into my hidden hurley-barked hiding hoop, and loose your whining = pleas into my gilded ribs.. The hooks you hurl from the medianna sing past my face to arrive like = Spaniards at my Hyndian Scapula.. Your forked corona helmet gleams under the frog-wood and moss-turned = gold in the fountains of youth.. I ply you with tender brides from the rough veld of my felt rondhavel.. you say,=20 GLUEBONES. as if it were a name of a town, or a regal ship launched from my lips.. Tired, I clamber down from the railing.. a little stove, that looks like an iron head flames, and cinders pop behind the eyes the mouth is a metal grating.. here hangs a poker cheek tears sizzle down around the streets of the ear.. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:30:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Larry Rivers (1924-2002) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sad news. Rivers was outrageous and I loved him for it. His Washington Crossing the Delaware remains one of my favorite pieces. Surrounded by abstractionists, Rivers, always the misanthrope, went the other way. A true innovator, he proved that referential painting could be reinvented. His hybrid, abstract/figurative, works placed him both inside and outside the pack. And a talented pack it was. For my money his work evinces the rarest of all aesthetic qualities--originality. Travel clean, Larry. Best, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:29:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Found-collaborative magnetism Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Quotes usually come from published writing; e.g., publishers have control > over what gets into the vernacular, thus who becomes famous enough to be > quoted. "Grudge not the beloved ghosts their resurrection, nor yourself > communion with them." Paul Hindermith. > With the Internet, however, this is changing, and the names of those quoted > may not be generally known. Call it, the democratization of the found. > > -Joel Weishaus ! I'm wondering if Joel Weishaus' beautiful quote from Hindemith reveals some familiarity with the book I mentioned, "The Physics of Immortality" by Frank J. Tipler. Tipler's eccentric thesis is that millions of years from now, as predicted in biblical scriptures, everyone that ever existed will be resurrected. Tipler, according to a close friend of mine who was the head of the CCNY philosophy department for many years, and whose area is the history of science, told me that Tipler is a very respected scientist whose earlier books were eagerly read by nearly every contemporary physicist. Tipler believes that someday cybernetics will be so advanced that that this resurrection activity will be a cinch for the Omega Point, a God-like force that will remember and reproduce everyone that ever existed. How's that for "the democratization of the found"? As for the internet, perhaps the origin of quotes will be more known than ever. After all, isn't the internet is the ultimate success of alphabetization? I am not so sure that cyberspace is leading toward a middle ages form of collective anonymity. But isn't it pretty to think so? PS on Books and Music I'm listening to a lot of Haydn String Quartets (I like the Lindsays best). Also rereading every word of George Orwell (started this before 9/11). Right now: "The Road to Wigan Pier" and "Animal Farm". Also, "We", the classic Russian science fiction novel by Yevgeny Zamyatin, which was written between 1921 and 1922 and not published in Russia until 1952. Zamyatin was exiled under Stalin and died in Paris in 1937. "We", which envisions a world where everyone is given a number or a letter instead of a name, was a major source of inspiration for both Orwell's "1984" and Huxley's "Brave New World." I'm also reading the abovementioned "Physics of Immortality" Otherwise, roaming around here on the Cape reading pebbles on the beach, listening to the music of the waves. Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Larry Rivers (1923-2002) In-Reply-To: from "Jim Behrle" at Aug 15, 2002 04:54:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have Sam Hunter's giant and wonderful LARRY RIVERS book in front of me (picked it up thru Hamilton on remainder last year for 14 bucks!) Whatever problems art critics may have with him, Rivers always blows me away with his skill and, especially, his audacity. Even, for instance, in the period that produced such pieces as "Heroes of Chushingura" (which don't really do it for me) I'm knocked out by his willingness to try, it seems, *anything* - treating whatever happens in the course of art-making/thinking as revelation, to paraphrase Duncan. The proto-pop pieces of the 60s are, to my mind, more interesting than most pop art, since they treat popular materials the way a jazz musician might, integrating them with many other visual languages. It's this sort of polyvisual impulse which I keep returning to. Unofficial autobiography indeed! Another sad, but triumphant, departure. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:08:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: music thread report In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for all the responses. Anastasios's pairing of Louis Armstrong and Django Reinhardt convinced me to buy a CD of the latter (any particular recording to start with?), and Gary Sullivan's wonderful essay made me think "this is what a list is all about" (I'll check out the links), and K.Silem's selections made me think that he and I probably have a lot in common. Not meaning to perpetuate the thread, but -- Here are a few more things I've been listening to lately, followed by a simple digest of the posts thus far; - Queen - "Jazz" and "The Game" - Ornette Coleman "Shape of Jazz to Come" (wow) - Coltrane "Live at Village Vanguard" (wow x2) - Bach - Brandenburgs, Cello suites ("wow" doesn't do it justice) - Bartok - Miraculous Mandarin - Luna "Romantica" (highly recommended) - Trojan DJ collection - (reggae) - Housemartins "London O Hull 4" - Bob Wills (everything) - Mozart piano sonatas (see "The Man Who Wasn't There") - Mahler symphonies (various, esp 4 & 6) - Tricky "Blowback" (bad, awful) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Townes Van Zandt Steely Dan and Donald Fagen albums Palace Bros "Viva Last Blues" Guided By Voices --Aaron Belz - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wilco -- Yankee Hotel Foxtrot (must listen to it at least 1x per day & have been doing so since the week it came out) Django Reinhardt -- Djangology & the new Verve release Swing '39 Duke Ellington -- Live in Fargo, ND 1940 DJ Shadow -- The Private Press Flying Burrito Brothers -- The Gilded Palace of Sin Velvet Underground & Nico (the new mono release in the deluxe cd edition) Art Ensemble of Chicago -- A Jackson in Your House / Message to Our Folks Archie Shepp -- Blase / Live at the Pan African Festival (1968) Coltrane -- Interstellar Space / Stellar Regions / Live in Japan / Live at the Village Vanguard / Crescent / Sun Ship / Meditations / Ballads North Indian ragas -- (a Radio France Internationale recording) ... There are two musicians who just stop the world for me and make me smile: Louis Armstrong | Django Reinhardt --Anastasios Kozaitis - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - alice coltrane: "universal consciousness," "eternity" "journey in satchidananda" Joelle Leandre's rendition of "Ryoanji" --Mister Kazim Ali - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yeah Yeah Yeahs The Pixies' famed "purple tape" --Jim Behrle - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Talking Heads --Tony Robinson - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - morcheeba sezen aksu sertab erener taraf de hoidoiks morton feldman yamamoto ensemble nusrat fateh ali khan django talvin singh goran bregovic nurse with wound --mIEKAL aND - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dava Gjergji's "S'jam fajtor se jam shqiptar" Motrat Mustafa's "Per Ju ge e doni kengen shqipe" Naseebo Lal Ghada Ragab's "Awa'at Bahin," (mediocre) Cheba Nawar Kazim Al Saher CD, "Ba'ad Al Hob," Najwa Karam's "Oyoun Albi" Asala Nasri's "Ya Sabra Yana" --Gary Sullivan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - David Bowie FEVER (Kylie Minogue) "Love at First Sight" Soundtrack - SCOOBY-DOO LANGLEY SCHOOL MUSIC PROJECT "Innocence and Despair" ABBA "Gold Greatest Hits" LULU, "Together" (Duets album UK import) --Kevin Killian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - loggins & messina's "angry eyes"... long version nilsson: greatest hits merle haggard - ~roots~ and ~down from the mountain~ marilyn crispell ~amaryllis~ --Joe Amato - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Glass - "Aria" from "Einstein on the beach", Morton Suotnick's -"Andromada Strain" Soft Machine soundtrack - "Henry Fool," by Hal Hartley.. --kari edwards - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yoko Ono - "Plastic Ono Band" "Fly" "Rising" "Blueprint for a Sunrise" --Mister Kazim Ali - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - soundtrack - Cat People (1982), soundtrack - Lantana (2001) Bowie: Space Oddity --Dodie Bellamy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chant du Monde - MUSIC OF THE TUAREGS Tom Waits Bobby D Harrison Birtwistle - PULSE SHADOWS Pierre Boulez - SUR INCISES Enzo Cormann (voice) Jean-Marc Padovani (saxes) do Kerouac: CHORUS and MER Stebe Lacy --Pierre Joris - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yoko Ono - "Approximately Infinite Universe" Jayne Cortez and the Firespitters - "There It Is" --Gwynne Garfinkle - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dolly Parton's latest White Stripes's latest Donovan VU's self-titled Beth Orton's latest --Arielle Greenberg - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beastie Boys, _The In Sound from Way Out_ _Crumb_, Soundtrack Alban Gerhardt, Music for Cello and Piano (Cassado, Ravel, et al.) Misc. Artists, _Country Blues Encores, 1927-35_ Misc. Artists, _The Country Girls 1927-35_ Misc. Artists, Time/Life Hits of the'70s collection --K. Silem Mohammad - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Listening to Berg's Wozzeck Berg--Three Orchestral Pieces Op. 6 Bumsteinas & Glass--4 Songs from Shaw Opera Krutzen & Glass--Mayakovsky is Dead & Puppet Psalms --Jesse Glass - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Erik B & Rakim Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E. Public Enemy B.D.P. Bob Marley: Survival, Confrontation, & Uprising Barry White: All Time Greatest Hits --Jerrold Shiroma - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:16:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Digital Beauties, ed. Weidemann The Future of Ideas, Lessig Blender and other 3D handbooks Fifty-five T'ang Poems & T'ang Poetic Vocabulary, both Hugh Stimson .echo by me (finally got a POD copy) Flowers of the Southwest Deserts, Dodge Dialectics of Nature, Engels "roof slates" by pierre reverdy (caws/terry translation) Life Style by Bruce Mau S, M, L, XL by Rem Koolhaas & Bruce Mau The Activist Drawing, de Zegher & Wigley, eds. (book on Situationist architecture, specifically the work of Constant) The City Reader, LeGates & Stout, eds. The Disparities by Rodrigo Toscano Arrival by Sarah Anne Cox Slowly by Lyn Hejinian XCP #10 Spinoza in Her Youth by Norma Cole Aufgabe #10 Joyelle McSweeney's > THE RED BIRD (Fence) and Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE (Edge). Woyzek "Leaving Lines of Gender: A Feminist Genealogy of Language Writing" by Anne Vickery, _lingo_ by William Allegrezza: impressive debut chapbook from the editor of _moria_ * _Learning to Count_ by Alberta Turner * Pentti Saarikoski's work in _The Vintage Book of Contemporary World Poetry_ (looking for more by this Finnish poet) * _The Harlem Gallery_ by Melvin B. Tolson * Daniil Kharms . . . complete work is on the internet at Bengali poet Shamsur Rahman (in translation on the web), in honor of my companion John Clark's recent visit to Bangladesh . . . some has a streak of the absurd _The Story of Writing_ by Andrew Robinson (gorgeously illustrated!) plus anything I can find on the web about Rongorongo, the writing of Easter Island _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue_, by Merritt Ruhlen . . . lets you engage in detective work comparing languages of the world , "The Haiku Year" (Soft Skull Press). Judith M. Green, DEEP DEMOCRACY: Community, Diversity and Transformation (Rowan & Littlefield, 1999). Very interesting, in the tradition of Radical Prgamatism ala William James or Alain Locke, John Dewey etc. Jennifer MOxley's THE SENSE RECORD (Edge), which has really been challenging my biases re avant-form. And the one I mentioned last week, Neidecker's amazing COLLECTED Nate Mackey's ATET AD Borges' "This Craft of Verse," and Ron Padgett's "The Big Something"=20 Plato's "Gorgias," J.M. Synge's "Playboy of the Western World," Rushdie's "Midnight's Children." Albert Mobilio's Me With Animal Towering and loving it! One Market under God by Thomas Frank. _Georges Bataille: An Intellectual Biography_by Michel Surya. "the heart of yoga" by t.k.v. desikachar (has the best best best translation of the yoga sutra) "economics" by fanny howe--so good-- the latest of issue of "jubilat" Mill is Burning by Richard Matthews and > Mary Jo Bang's Louise in Love for months now. >=20 > Tantric Quest: An Encounter With Absolute Love, Daniel Odier Syntactically Impermenance, Scalapino The Heart of Yoga, T. K. V. Desikachar >=20 Braudel'sAfterthoughts on Material Civilization and Capitalism for a piece = I Erasmus's Praise of Folly. Barry MacSweeney - Odes, hellhound Vladimir Nabokov - Pale Fire Haruki Murakami - Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World Kevin Killian & Lewis Ellingham - Poet Be Like God jack spicer - heads of the town up to the aether (had to go back to this on= e after reading Poet Be Like God) macsweeneys issue 8 - if you have seen this issue, you'd know it's a book and a journal Arielle, as far as the course, it's really just the usual suspects: Wiliams: Kora in Hell... Ashbery: Tennis Court... =20 The New American Poetry =20 The Poetics of Indeterminacy Norton Anthology of Post-Modern American Poetry Consciousness Explained by Daniel C. Dennet... a completely fascinating work on the nature of consciousness, bypassing the reductionist/wholistic dichotomy and filled with great reports of experiments that challenge traditional notions of perception. Syntactically Impermenance (Scalapino) and Pierce-Arrow (Howe) Healing from Within with Chi Nei Tsang by Gilles Marin... Design Patterns (GoF)... by Christopher Alexander in A Pattern Language... Stuart Kauffman, _Investigations_ Oxford UP2000 (attempts at a "General Biology" -- absolutely fascinating -- was recommended to me by Don Byrd) Peter Sloterdijk, _Sp=E4ren I, Blasen_ the first volume of the hottest German philosopher's magnum opus, not yet translated. RWB Lewis's biography of Dante (Penguiin Lives) Norma Cole _ Spinoza in her Youth_ Omnidawn 2002. the first issue of _Kiosk_ Maria Rosa Menocal _The Ornament of the World. How Muslims, jews, and Christians created a culture of tolerance in medieval Spain_ Little Brown 2002. An excellent book with a stupid introduction by Harold Bloom. Bernadette Mayer _Red Book in Three Parts_ United Artists Books 2002 (poems from 65-66) Abdelwahab Meddeb _ La Maladie de l'Islam_. music -The Return of Fenn O'Berg - Christian Fennesz, Peter Rehberg, Jim O'Rourke (Mego) -Blinfolder - Adaptation (more electronic music, this album I just recorded two weeks ago) -matmos live with j lesser (called "drug opera" on the cover) more straight up electronica: -Japanese Telecom - Japanese Telecom Searching for beats: -Afrika Bambaata - Looking for the Perfect Beat -Ornette Coleman- The Belgrade Concert when the music itself is just one part of a multivariate need to listen= : -John Lennon - Shaved Fish -talking heads - fear of music -40 Oz. - Impacto (local ska band/friends of mine, I made a drunken promise to write a review, but it's quite good) -laurie anderson-live in new york 9.18.01 to have my mind blown away (or, to stretch myself musically & perceptually, to help me find order in polyrhythm and seeming chaos and the= n let go): -Ligeti - Ligeti Project 1 & Works For Piano, Etudes, Musica Ricercata & the not of my choosing category: -tenacious d - for some reason their pop irony shock-rocking just didn't work for me music going into my home/auto rotation soon: -Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band -sun ra - nuclear war -rechenzentrum -timeblind -peter brotzmann - machine gun And as for music (which was the last thread yes?): Tim Berne's new album (name escapes me just now and the disc is in my car) which is a 100% written composition but which nonetheless sounds like Ornette meets World Saxophone Quartet meets DJ Shadow. Strange indeed and begs interesting questions re improvisation as a prerequisite to out-jazz etc. The Breeder's POD. Worth it for the cover of "Happiness is a Warm Gun" alone but there's lots of great Berg--Three Orchestral Pieces Op. 6 Bumsteinas & Glass--4 Songs from Shaw Opera Krutzen & Glass--Mayakovsky is Dead & Puppet Psalms - Queen - "Jazz" and "The Game" - Ornette Coleman "Shape of Jazz to Come" (wow) - Coltrane "Live at Village Vanguard" (wow x2) - Bach - Brandenburgs, Cello suites ("wow" doesn't do it justice) - Bartok - Miraculous Mandarin - Luna "Romantica" (highly recommended) - Trojan DJ collection - (reggae) - Housemartins "London O Hull 4" - Bob Wills (everything) - Mozart piano sonatas (see "The Man Who Wasn't There") - Mahler symphonies (various, esp 4 & 6) - Tricky "Blowback" (bad, awful) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Townes Van Zandt Steely Dan and Donald Fagen albums Palace Bros "Viva Last Blues" Guided By Voices --Aaron Belz - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wilco -- Yankee Hotel Foxtrot (must listen to it at least 1x per day & have been doing so since the week it came out) Django Reinhardt -- Djangology & the new Verve release Swing '39 Duke Ellington -- Live in Fargo, ND 1940 DJ Shadow -- The Private Press Flying Burrito Brothers -- The Gilded Palace of Sin Velvet Underground & Nico (the new mono release in the deluxe cd edition) Art Ensemble of Chicago -- A Jackson in Your House / Message to Our Folks Archie Shepp -- Blase / Live at the Pan African Festival (1968) Coltrane -- Interstellar Space / Stellar Regions / Live in Japan / Live at the Village Vanguard / Crescent / Sun Ship / Meditations / Ballads North Indian ragas -- (a Radio France Internationale recording) ... There are two musicians who just stop the world for me and make me smile: Louis Armstrong | Django Reinhardt --Anastasios Kozaitis - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - alice coltrane: "universal consciousness," "eternity" "journey in satchidananda" Joelle Leandre's rendition of "Ryoanji" --Mister Kazim Ali - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yeah Yeah Yeahs The Pixies' famed "purple tape" --Jim Behrle - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Talking Heads --Tony Robinson - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - morcheeba sezen aksu sertab erener taraf de hoidoiks morton feldman yamamoto ensemble nusrat fateh ali khan django talvin singh goran bregovic nurse with wound --mIEKAL aND - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dava Gjergji's "S'jam fajtor se jam shqiptar" Motrat Mustafa's "Per Ju ge e doni kengen shqipe" Naseebo Lal Ghada Ragab's "Awa'at Bahin," (mediocre) Cheba Nawar Kazim Al Saher CD, "Ba'ad Al Hob," Najwa Karam's "Oyoun Albi" Asala Nasri's "Ya Sabra Yana" --Gary Sullivan - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - David Bowie FEVER (Kylie Minogue) "Love at First Sight" Soundtrack - SCOOBY-DOO LANGLEY SCHOOL MUSIC PROJECT "Innocence and Despair" ABBA "Gold Greatest Hits" LULU, "Together" (Duets album UK import) --Kevin Killian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - loggins & messina's "angry eyes"... long version nilsson: greatest hits merle haggard - ~roots~ and ~down from the mountain~ marilyn crispell ~amaryllis~ --Joe Amato - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Glass - "Aria" from "Einstein on the beach", Morton Suotnick's -"Andromada Strain" Soft Machine soundtrack - "Henry Fool," by Hal Hartley.. --kari edwards - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yoko Ono - "Plastic Ono Band" "Fly" "Rising" "Blueprint for a Sunrise" --Mister Kazim Ali - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - soundtrack - Cat People (1982), soundtrack - Lantana (2001) Bowie: Space Oddity --Dodie Bellamy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Chant du Monde - MUSIC OF THE TUAREGS Tom Waits Bobby D Harrison Birtwistle - PULSE SHADOWS Pierre Boulez - SUR INCISES Enzo Cormann (voice) Jean-Marc Padovani (saxes) do Kerouac: CHORUS and MER Stebe Lacy --Pierre Joris - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Yoko Ono - "Approximately Infinite Universe" Jayne Cortez and the Firespitters - "There It Is" --Gwynne Garfinkle - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dolly Parton's latest White Stripes's latest Donovan VU's self-titled Beth Orton's latest --Arielle Greenberg - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beastie Boys, _The In Sound from Way Out_ _Crumb_, Soundtrack Alban Gerhardt, Music for Cello and Piano (Cassado, Ravel, et al.) Misc. Artists, _Country Blues Encores, 1927-35_ Misc. Artists, _The Country Girls 1927-35_ Misc. Artists, Time/Life Hits of the'70s collection --K. Silem Mohammad - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Listening to Berg's Wozzeck Berg--Three Orchestral Pieces Op. 6 Bumsteinas & Glass--4 Songs from Shaw Opera Krutzen & Glass--Mayakovsky is Dead & Puppet Psalms --Jesse Glass - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Erik B & Rakim Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E. Public Enemy B.D.P. Bob Marley: Survival, Confrontation, & Uprising Barry White: All Time Greatest Hits --Jerrold Shiroma - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:18:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Two novels I've read recently "The Tutor" by Peter Abrahams, possibly the best suspense novel I've read since Ira Levin's "Sliver." "At Swim Two Boys," by --hmmm, now I can't remember his name! He's from Ireland and his first name is Jamie. Anyhow I didn't want to read this book thinking it was all going to be terribly naff--but it is terrific!! It's a long book but reads very quickly, after a few chapters you won't put it down till you're all done. It's the story of the Easter Rising in Dublin 1916 against the backdrop of the concurrent Great War & the capture of Roger Casement. And it's a pastiche of the high modernisms of "Dubliners" and the beginning of "Ulysses." And it's this touching love story between two lower class teenagers and the mysterious older man who takes an interest in them. You read all this on the jacket copy and you think, what an awful idea, but take my word for it, it's awesome!! Just as good as "The Tutor" even if more ambitious. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Folks, I am a slow & deliberate reader. I can't do more than a few books at a time. This is a great source of sadness for me, but it does force me to pick my reading carefully. I'm only actively reading the first two of these: * * * Paul Fussell _the Great War and Modern Memory_. Published in 1975, this literary history of WWI won the Nat'l Book Award and the Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award, but even so, it's damned good. WWI truly did set the tone for a century of high-tech war. * * * Patrick White _The Tree of Man_. (fiction) From australia-- This is some of the toughest, most languagey prose I've read since I recently reread Nathaniel Hawthorne (school assignment). I recommend White to anyone who reads English. John Tranter recommends _Voss_. Steve Malmude _The Bundle_ . (poems) I already boosted this excellent Sub-Press book once. Maurice Manning _Lawrence Booth's Book of Visions_. (poems) This book is okay, kind of too self-consciously Southern for my taste. I feel that it's been done, and better. Yet there are a few good 'uns in here. Fielding Dawson _Tiger Lilies_. I know several here recommended this--in fact, Dawson hails from my home-suburb of Kirkwood, MO-- but I couldn't take it. Ben Marcus _Noteable American Women_. Couldn't take it. Though I heard the author read at Prarie Lights in April, and it seemed like good stuff. The book is as thick as a ten-dollar spoon, infected by whatever it is that makes David Eggers a great editor and much-hyped but terrible novelist. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some things I'm reading lately: _lingo_ by William Allegrezza: impressive debut chapbook from the editor of _moria_ * _Learning to Count_ by Alberta Turner * Pentti Saarikoski's work in _The Vintage Book of Contemporary World Poetry_ (looking for more by this Finnish poet) * _The Harlem Gallery_ by Melvin B. Tolson Daniil Kharms . . . complete work is on the internet at Bengali poet Shamsur Rahman (in translation on the web), in honor of my companion John Clark's recent visit to Bangladesh . . . some has a streak of the absurd _The Story of Writing_ by Andrew Robinson (gorgeously illustrated!) plus anything I can find on the web about Rongorongo, the writing of Easter Island _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue_, by Merritt Ruhlen . . . lets you engage in detective work comparing languages of the world *thanks to the "adventureland of underrated poets" at Taverner's Koan for recommending these & more: Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:48:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Apologies for sending my own list I have complied from this wealth of information,,, saved the wrong one and or sent the wrong one.. one of those.. but here is my list I meet to sent: Nina Bouraoui - Forbiddin Vision.. prose - haunting, beautiful Kathy Acker - Don Quixte Mark Z. Danielewshi - House of leaves. prose.. great and entertaing.. what a great use of the page. Veza Cenetii - Yellow Street...this was a nice little find at a used book store. Carla Harryman's - garnder of Stars..!!! Robert Wilson and his Collaboators _ I esspecially enjoyed the chapter on Christopher Knowles.. Steve MaCaffery - V I I SE EN PAGES MiSSing James Joyce Finnegans Wake Raoul Vaneigem - the Revolution in everyday life Aufgabe #2 Lipstick Eleven #2 the Situationist international anthology ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:57:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Gallagher Subject: Re: Books MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Behrle's started a good one, I've been jotting a lot of those down. Chicago Review, summer issue (thanks to Kozaitis). This is a really good one, special issue on new German writing. Reversible Monuments: New Poetry from Mexico (intro by Weinberger). A bit uneven but some of them are better than anything I've read in the US in years. A Journey Through Economic Time, John Kenneth Galbraith. A layman's, literaryish history of the world economy in the 20th Century. The Maximus Poems. Yeah, just moved to Gloucester so have to do it again. kg kari edwards wrote: > Apologies for sending my own list I have complied from this wealth of > information,,, saved the wrong one and or sent the wrong one.. one of > those.. but here is my list I meet to sent: > > Nina Bouraoui - Forbiddin Vision.. prose - haunting, beautiful > Kathy Acker - Don Quixte > Mark Z. Danielewshi - House of leaves. prose.. great and entertaing.. what a > great use of the page. > Veza Cenetii - Yellow Street...this was a nice little find at a used book > store. > Carla Harryman's - garnder of Stars..!!! > Robert Wilson and his Collaboators _ I esspecially enjoyed the chapter on > Christopher Knowles.. > Steve MaCaffery - V I I SE EN PAGES MiSSing > James Joyce Finnegans Wake > Raoul Vaneigem - the Revolution in everyday life > Aufgabe #2 > Lipstick Eleven #2 > the Situationist international anthology -- Kevin Gallagher Global Development and Environment Institute Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 t:617-627-5467 f:617-627-2409 http://ase.tufts.edu/gdae ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: music thread report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Listening this morning to one of the great underappreciated soul/jazzy singer/song writer/pianists of recent decades: Zulema Cusseaux -- Last I'd heard, she was mostly retired from music and living in Florida -- there was a Best Of CD some years ago that you might come across in used CD stores, BUT it leaves out her breath-taking revision of WHITER SHADE OF PALE -- it's from a classic album on RCA, simply titled ZULEMA -- Check it out if you possibly can -- also picking up on an earlier music thread -- there is now a multi-CD box (not all that expensive) of Conlon Nancarrow's compositions for player piano, so that peculiar and marvelous music is now more widely available <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:02:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Found-collaborative magnetism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Quotes usually come from published writing; e.g., publishers have control > > over what gets into the vernacular, thus who becomes famous enough to be > > quoted. "Grudge not the beloved ghosts their resurrection, nor yourself > > communion with them." Paul Hindermith. > > With the Internet, however, this is changing, and the names of those quoted > > may not be generally known. Call it, the democratization of the found. > > > > -Joel Weishaus > > ! > I'm wondering if Joel Weishaus' beautiful quote from Hindemith reveals some > familiarity with the book I mentioned, "The Physics of Immortality" by Frank > J. Tipler. Tipler's eccentric thesis is that millions of years from now, as > predicted in biblical scriptures, everyone that ever existed will be > resurrected. Tipler, according to a close friend of mine who was the head of > the CCNY philosophy department for many years, and whose area is the history > of science, told me that Tipler is a very respected scientist whose earlier > books were eagerly read by nearly every contemporary physicist. Tipler > believes that someday cybernetics will be so advanced that that this > resurrection activity will be a cinch for the Omega Point, a God-like force > that will remember and reproduce everyone that ever existed. How's that for > "the democratization of the found"? Nick: It comes from Willie Ruff's essay, "Three Passions of Paul Hundemith." In, Kai Erikson, Editor, "Encounters." Yale University Press, 1989. Best, Joel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:24:58 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this like a role-call thing? To make ensure everybody ispolitical alignmetns? The old 'ly' ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:32:40 -0400 Reply-To: kevinkillian@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "kevinkillian@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm, that's a provocative way of looking at it=2E You could be right=2E What does everyone else think? Cheers, Derek Rogerson! From-- Kevin Killian Original Message: ----------------- From: Derek R derek@DEREKROGERSON=2ECOM Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:24:58 -0400 To: POETICS@LISTSERV=2EACSU=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU Subject: Re: Books Is this like a role-call thing? To make ensure everybody ispolitical alignmetns? The old 'ly' ? -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:04:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrea Baker Subject: Re: music thread report In-Reply-To: <200208161601.MAA19880@webmail3.cac.psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've been listening to a lot of that Nancarrow. Also, for listeners up that alley and the jazz alley, if anyone mentioned Henry Threadgill I missed it. We're a household of devote listeners to his CD's, especially Song in My Trees, and, most especially, the song entitled Grief. It's halting. Andrea > From: ALDON L NIELSEN > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:01:08 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: music thread report > > Listening this morning to one of the great underappreciated soul/jazzy > singer/song writer/pianists of recent decades: Zulema Cusseaux -- Last I'd > heard, she was mostly retired from music and living in Florida -- there was a > Best Of CD some years ago that you might come across in used CD stores, BUT it > leaves out her breath-taking revision of WHITER SHADE OF PALE -- it's from a > classic album on RCA, simply titled ZULEMA -- Check it out if you possibly can > -- > > also picking up on an earlier music thread -- there is now a multi-CD box (not > all that expensive) of Conlon Nancarrow's compositions for player piano, so > that peculiar and marvelous music is now more widely available > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:25:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Books, music and one film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Is this like a role-call thing? To make ensure everybody ispolitical alignmetns?" It is a bit provocative, Kevin. Actually, I was thinking how this thread enabled all the posters to congratulate themselves on their remarkable good taste. Which is something I'd like to put an end to right away with my brief list . . . Books: *Edward Dorn: A World of Difference* -- Tom Clark (North Atlantic) --- I realize that about six people in the country have read this new biography of Dorn by Tom Clark, but I thought one of them might be on this list. If so, could you back-channel me? Would love to talk about it. *The Botany of Desire* -- Michael Pollan (Random House) --- Wonderful treatise about how plants use us to propagate themselves, with chapters on the apple, the tulip, marijuana and potatoes. (OK, I did read the third chapter first, but the whole book is fabulous, with the added suggestion that an informed look at the science would mean a change in traditional subject-object grammar). *Kamasutra* -- new translation by Wendy Doniger & Sudhir Kakar (Oxford) --- I realize that this is like saying one reads *Playboy* for the excellent articles, but it was in fact fascinating to have this document placed in historical context. And there are, in fact, some quite interesting techniques for both men and women . . . as MasterCard would say, "timeless" *Twilight of the Male Ego* -- klipschutz (Tsunami Inc.) --- One of the things I often miss in contemporary poetry is humor, so when I first smiled, then giggled, then laughed out loud several times while reading this book -- not only because of its tour de force "Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Burrito" but its wonderful titles (e.g., "I'm Wearing My Heart on Your Sleeve")-- it became a keeper. Also on the small endtable near the bed: *Power Politics* by Arundhati Roy; *Gnosis and Hermeticism from Antiquity to Modern Times* ed. van den Broek and Hanegraaff (thanks, Pat!); *Orpheus and His Lute* by Elisabeth Henry and *The Orphic Poems* by M.L. West (part of an endless series); *A Test of Poetry* by L.Z.; *The Birth of the Cool* by Lewis Macadams. I've been listening to some late 70s albums by Bob Dylan, *Desire* (Joey Gallo "Spent ten years in Attica / reading Nietzche and Wilhelm Reich") and the very underrated *Street Legal* -- also, an album by Dexter Gordon called *Manhattan Symphonie* that I'm surprised hasn't gotten more mention in the apotheosis of things New York. And I just saw *The Kid Stays in the Picture*, a fake documentary of the career of Robert Evans as a producer at Paramount Studios, which is pretty strange and wonderful -- the best film I've seen in a long time. And finally (!) a question . . . Mike Magee, I was wondering what Duncan essay you were referring to in your nice post about Larry Rivers . . . "treating whatever happens in the course of art-making/thinking as revelation, to paraphrase Duncan" (you can back-channel). Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:34:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Books, music and one film In-Reply-To: <5D90B152C32E2142B3DC0BD2B23C95DE07354A@luxor.lwtc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Safdie wrote: > *Edward Dorn: A World of Difference* -- Tom Clark (North Atlantic) > --- I realize that about six people in the country have read this new > biography of Dorn by Tom Clark, but I thought one of them might be on this > list. If so, could you back-channel me? Would love to talk about it. Well, I've read it & loved it -- a much better book than his Olson bio, -- and am looking forward to a needed second volume to fill out the years not covered in this one & which I hope he is in the process of writing -- but I think it would be an excellent _front-channel_ topic to discuss onm this list -- p ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:57:53 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Post Avant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Daniel Zimmerman’s Post Avant Editors Choice for the Transcontinental Award Chosen by David Baratier with a forward by Robert Creeley is $12 including postage directly from the publisher for US destinations, $14 to CA, $15 to all others, in US funds (e-mail for info on other currencies): ISBN 1-886350-70-1 Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 pavementsaw.org Turning the pages of this first collection by Daniel Zimmerman there is a magnification of external reality that mimics myth, yet these poems only require living in the current world to be understood. A grandeur mixes with heroism, as the things that are not said, existing just off the viewable stage, project variously onto the reader’s mind. There is an effect, call it old fashioned “yolking,” or a correlation between the micro-cosm inside these poems and their global implications, but in either case, when we finish reading and look around, a gorgeous new order of natural complexity emerges. —David Baratier ...this world has shrunk to something approximating the backyard with the neighbor's tree blocking all the sun, the kids screaming, the barbecue rusted out, the dog barking in manic hysteria, and oneself plus beloved just sitting there, trying to keep even with that ‘outside’ which “leans in” on us, as Charles Olson said, forever. But “forever” is also gone, lost back there in the wake. Or it has become simply a qualification of what one will never oneself know, just another one of the “ten thousand and one things” which no longer seem to be around. So it's in that theoretic "here" these determinedly immaculate poems set to work—to particularize, to locate, almost to feel by literal hand the set and texture of the box into which we have driven our apparent lives. —Robert Creeley _______________________ what odysseus knew stones don’t remember their names. metals forget, but not Excalibur. viruses, hard to please, demand the Golden Section. lines around the eyes, bowstrings, limp, long for their bows; strung, serenade suitors; drawn, demand perfection. headstones remember, even the thin Colonial slabs: licked salt, naked slate. cenotaph: a friend, seen from behind, blending into the crowd, an enthymeme. cartoon bubbles, blank, hover precisely between then & here. _______________________ Daniel Zimmerman’s work has also appeared in Mother, Anonym, Move(UK), Solstice(UK), himma, New York Quarterly, Io, Abiko Quarterly (Japan), Assembling, The Downtown Review, Institute of Further Studies Magazine, kenning, Chain, Tinfish, Pacific Northwest Spiritual Poetry and NMFG (Canada). In 1998, he invented a new poetic form, Isotopes. An example appears in An Exaltation of Forms: Contemporary Poets Celebrate the Diversity of Their Art, edited by Annie Finch and Kathrine Varnes, Univ. of Michigan Press. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:07:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Government Outlaw of Raves? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This blows my mind!! MR ---------------------------------------------------- Raves Endangered? Feds Go After All-Night Music Parties By Geraldine Sealey Aug. 16 - Generational showdowns abound in music history. In the = Prohibition era, flappers and free-flowing jazz and booze irked = authorities. Decades later, buttoned-down elders condemned Woodstock as = just a hippie drug fest.=20 Now, politicians are targeting raves, the all-night electronic = music and dance marathons held anywhere from nightclubs to open fields - = also known these days as "massives," or "desert parties." Young devotees = of rave culture claim that no musical genre in recent memory has been so = endangered by a misunderstanding political and ruling class.=20 If a proposal working its way through the U.S. Congress becomes = law, raves could become extinct, they say, or at least driven far = underground. Proponents of the bill say they're not specifically = targeting rave parties or dance music but so-called "club drugs" such as = Ecstasy, Rohypnol and GHB, which they say permeate rave culture.=20 The RAVE Act, which stands for "Reducing Americans' Vulnerability = to Ecstasy," expands the federal "crack-house" statute, designed to = prosecute anyone whose buildings are used as drug havens, to include = party promoters. Under the Senate bill, anyone involved with the = planning of a rave who knows drugs are used, exchanged or made there = could face criminal charges and be subject to a civil penalty of = $250,000 or two times the gross receipts derived from each violation.=20 The legislation's broad language may appear to encompass any = nightclub or other venue where drugs may be present, but the act's title = suggests that the real targets here are raves.=20 "This gives prosecutors a common-sense tool to go after the worst = kind of promoters, those who seek to profit from drug use by young = people," said Chip Unruh, a spokesman for Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., who = sponsored the legislation. "A lot of these folks advertise the parties = as alcohol-free for parents then through a wink and a nod or through = covert flyers let [young people] know drug use will be permitted there." = A similar bill in the U.S. House of Representatives seeks to hold = "promoters of drug-oriented entertainment" liable for hosting events at = which drug use is widespread.=20 Do Glow Sticks and Pacifiers Promote 'E'?=20 Federal drug enforcement authorities have been focusing their = efforts more in recent years on the increasingly popular Ecstasy - the = street name for MDMA, or 3, 4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine, reputed to = bring euphoric highs to users.=20 According to the Drug Abuse Warning Network, thousands of = teenagers are treated for overdoses and Ecstasy-related health problems = in emergency rooms each year. Ecstasy mentions in emergency visits grew = 1,040 percent between 1994 and 1999, the group said.=20 RAVE Act supporters say that tens of thousands of young people are = initiated into the drug culture every year at raves. Some posters for = raves prominently feature pictures of Ecstasy pills or the letter "E," = they say, which is slang for Ecstasy. Some rave promoters sell items = believed to enhance the effects of drugs, such as neon glow sticks, = massage oils, menthol nasal inhalers, and pacifiers, which combat the = involuntary teeth-clenching associated with Ecstasy, the legislation = reads.=20 The RAVE Act language also accuses some rave promoters of = exploiting young drug users by charging exorbitant prices for bottled = water and entrance fees to "chill-out" rooms when they know Ecstasy = raises body temperatures and causes thirst.=20 "It's certainly clear from anecdotal evidence that the use of = Ecstasy really took off and was embraced by a number of people in the = rave scene," said Howard Simon, spokesman for the Partnership for a = Drug-Free America, which supports the RAVE Act. "The reason why = something usually becomes a stereotype is because something is so true = at first."=20 The push for new legislation comes as law enforcement authorities = have had mixed results going after promoters with laws already on the = books. Last year, federal prosecutors arrested the owners of two dance = clubs, Club La Vela in Tallahassee, Fla., and the State Palace Theater = in New Orleans, under the crack-house law.=20 A jury cleared the Tallahassee club owners, and the New Orleans = owners copped a plea but later won on appeal.=20 Ravers: You Say Drug Toys, We Say Pure Fun=20 Allegations about the pervasiveness of drugs at raves are based on = anecdotal evidence only, ravers counter, since statistics cannot really = prove that Ecstasy is more prevalent at raves than anywhere else young = people congregate.=20 While some ravers may take drugs, illegal substances are no more = central to rave culture than any other music scene or even any college = campus, they say. Those who identify with rave culture say the federal = government and many drug prevention organizations have the rave ethos - = and even some rave practices - all wrong.=20 "[The RAVE Act] is using a prejudice against youth to then broaden = the war on drugs without any sound information about what is happening = at these events," said Tim Santamour, executive director of Dance Safe, = a "harm reduction" group that promotes safe party practices.=20 Rave-goers say there are less sinister explanations for some of = the party traditions cited in the federal legislation. Some items = described as drug paraphernalia, such as the pacifiers, are just plain = entertainment, they say.=20 "Chill-out" rooms are commonly used to provide a haven from the = loud music and the heat of the dance floor, they say. And expensive = bottled water can be found at most sports stadiums and mainstream = concerts, they add, not just at raves.=20 "These people are describing every cultural item in this scene as = being nefarious including water," said Gary Blitz, director of the = Electronic Music Defense Foundation in Orange County, Calif. "That would = be really evil if there were a group of people knowing kids need water = and drawing them in and then ripping them off for the water. The facts = simply aren't there to support it."=20 Raves Could Go Back Underground=20 If critics really understood the culture they were attacking, they = would recognize a way of life that promotes healthy values, ravers say. = Over the years, for example, the rave culture has adopted the slogan = "PLUR," which stands for peace, love, unity and respect.=20 "Society's been dealing with hate crimes, drive-bys and gangs and = prejudice, and the government spent zillions of dollars in programs to = fix this and fix that. Here's a group of people, a youth movement, whose = ideals are you accept everyone," Blitz said.=20 Simon, of the Partnership for a Drug-Free America, says if the = rave spirit does not depend on drugs, then ravers should not oppose the = legislation intended to rid their parties of Ecstasy and other = substances.=20 "Anybody who believes in what the rave community originally stood = for should not have a problem with that," he said.=20 But ravers, disc jockeys and electronic music fans worry that = legitimate club owners and venue managers will be unwilling to risk = hosting a rave, or any dance party resembling a rave, if the legislation = is passed.=20 Some predict that the RAVE Act would just drive the rave scene = underground, essentially where it came from 20 years ago, to remote = fields, abandoned factories and other fringe locations where conditions = could get more dangerous for ravers.=20 As it is, many rave organizers now pay off-duty police officers to = patrol the venue, or employ security guards who are trained in emergency = medical services. Mainstream venues such as nightclubs must comply with = fire codes. But these safeguards would not exist at "underground" = locations.=20 RAVE Act supporters say that's no reason to allow drug-condoning = parties to continue. "We think it is more dangerous to go somewhere = where drug use is welcomed rather than discouraged," Simon said.=20 Musical Genocide?=20 Beyond the danger to ravers' health, some electronic music fans = also say the legislation's loose language threatens the music itself, = which is glued together by the clubs and other venues that host raves. = Aside from a handful of commercially-successful electronic musicians, = such as Moby, whose songs serve as jingles for a variety of television = advertisements, the electronic music genre has produced few mainstream = stars. Mainstream radio stations and major record labels largely have = not warmed to the style.=20 If concert promoters and club owners shy away from raves, then, = electronic music will essentially lose its main stage - or at least will = have to build a new one, ravers say.=20 "It's musical genocide," said Amanda Huie, director of marketing = for Buzzlife Productions in Washington, D.C. "It's so obviously = targeting a specific kind of music. That's clearly unconstitutional."=20 Huie, who collected 10,000 signatures for a petition opposing the = bill in less than a week, said she and her colleagues, which include the = American Civil Liberties Union and an auditorium managers' association, = do not want to defeat the bill but reform it.=20 "We want to make it specific so it targets criminals," she said, = "No matter how hard you search, to keep drugs out of venues is almost = impossible. The federal government can't even keep drugs out of = prisons," she said.=20 But Unruh, Biden's spokesman, says legislators have no intention = of endangering electronic music - only the drugs so often associated = with it.=20 "We set the bar very high," he said. "Legitimate promoters of any = type of music have nothing to fear from our bill."=20 Legislation on raves is due to be considered by Congress this = fall.=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:19:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Books, music and one film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yes, and why up to this point has it all been limited to books&music? i'm close reading every John Milius and John Cassavetes movie I can find this summer. little poetry incorporates pieces of time as well as these films. some of the poetry i've been going over, reading it alongside of the "close-viewing": SHAKE HANDS, Carl Thayler (Pavement Saw Press) a lot of spontaneity, integration, very available... A BUNCH OF KEYS, Mutsuo Takahashi, translated by Hiroaki Sato (Crossing Press) no flinching here, open, responsive to all... FROM THE HIDDEN STORHOUSE, Benjamin Peret, Translated by Keith Hollaman (Field Translation Series 6) burning, guided, bastard son of Ducasse... and sometime I turn the sound down on the movies and insert the following as soundtracks: BIOSPHERE -- SHENZHOU (Touch) transmissions from another time and space...great follow-up to CIRQUE... JOHN DUNCAN -- FRESH (All Questions/XTRact) The Zeitkratzer Ensemble acoustically putting out compositions by Merzbow, B. Günter, Terre Thaemlitz...more time digitized... CHARLEMAGNE PALESTINE -- MUSIC FOR BIG EARS (Staalplaat) bells and their sonic decay...rich sound matter...abrasive, harsh, ongoing... enough...time to rupture and charge some dead time... Gerald ----- Original Message ----- From: "Safdie Joseph" To: Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Books, music and one film > "Is this like a role-call thing? To make ensure everybody ispolitical > alignmetns?" > > It is a bit provocative, Kevin. Actually, I was thinking how this thread > enabled all the posters to congratulate themselves on their remarkable good > taste. Which is something I'd like to put an end to right away with my brief > list . . . > > Books: > *Edward Dorn: A World of Difference* -- Tom Clark (North Atlantic) > --- I realize that about six people in the country have read this new > biography of Dorn by Tom Clark, but I thought one of them might be on this > list. If so, could you back-channel me? Would love to talk about it. > > *The Botany of Desire* -- Michael Pollan (Random House) > --- Wonderful treatise about how plants use us to propagate themselves, with > chapters on the apple, the tulip, marijuana and potatoes. (OK, I did read > the third chapter first, but the whole book is fabulous, with the added > suggestion that an informed look at the science would mean a change in > traditional subject-object grammar). > > *Kamasutra* -- new translation by Wendy Doniger & Sudhir Kakar (Oxford) > --- I realize that this is like saying one reads *Playboy* for the excellent > articles, but it was in fact fascinating to have this document placed in > historical context. And there are, in fact, some quite interesting > techniques for both men and women . . . as MasterCard would say, "timeless" > > *Twilight of the Male Ego* -- klipschutz (Tsunami Inc.) > --- One of the things I often miss in contemporary poetry is humor, so when > I first smiled, then giggled, then laughed out loud several times while > reading this book -- not only because of its tour de force "Thirteen Ways of > Looking at a Burrito" but its wonderful titles (e.g., "I'm Wearing My Heart > on Your Sleeve")-- it became a keeper. > > Also on the small endtable near the bed: *Power Politics* by Arundhati Roy; > *Gnosis and Hermeticism from Antiquity to Modern Times* ed. van den Broek > and Hanegraaff (thanks, Pat!); *Orpheus and His Lute* by Elisabeth Henry and > *The Orphic Poems* by M.L. West (part of an endless series); *A Test of > Poetry* by L.Z.; *The Birth of the Cool* by Lewis Macadams. > > I've been listening to some late 70s albums by Bob Dylan, *Desire* (Joey > Gallo "Spent ten years in Attica / reading Nietzche and Wilhelm Reich") and > the very underrated *Street Legal* -- also, an album by Dexter Gordon called > *Manhattan Symphonie* that I'm surprised hasn't gotten more mention in the > apotheosis of things New York. > > And I just saw *The Kid Stays in the Picture*, a fake documentary of the > career of Robert Evans as a producer at Paramount Studios, which is pretty > strange and wonderful -- the best film I've seen in a long time. > > And finally (!) a question . . . Mike Magee, I was wondering what Duncan > essay you were referring to in your nice post about Larry Rivers . . . > "treating whatever happens in the course of art-making/thinking as > revelation, to paraphrase Duncan" (you can back-channel). > > Joe Safdie > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:29:16 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: James Kopta 1972-2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerry I thank you for the post, I would not have known otherwise. For others unfamiliar with Jim Kopta, he was a fine metalurgist, musician and thinker who had profound influence on many, across borders of genre, tho best known as a noise musician with radical practices. Perhaps the only bands that came close to the work he did under the moniker Brown Cuts Neighbors (& plenty of others) was Friends Forever, who toured the US in a van, the inside of which was their stage, with a lighting manager & when they were excited staged dived back into the van thru the front side window. One of the best practicioners of the Alfred Jarry school of Ubism or patapsychology, their first widely distributed single "Broken Down like a Bean" on Wow-cool records brought them in contact with Jad Fair, who was accused of copying BCN by many ever since. Half-Japanese, Fair's band, met up with Penn Juliet (of Penn & Teller fame) who worked as a super-promoter for their efforts, using funding from a guest appearance on Miami Vice to create 1,000,000,000,000,000 (etc.) Watts Records (I think their real name was 100 Gigawatts records, do you know Gerry? Chris Stroff?? somebody?) who became best known for releasing Moe Tucker's (from the Velvet Und.) first solo record. Anyway reading this over now it all seems like a bizarre train of circumstance fitting of patapsychology, that Jim was found face down, relegated to the realm of "local artist," floating in the water of a town he loathed. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:27:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Hybridization, assimilation, etc., and some URLs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Aaron, Thanks for the kind words -- I feel weird posting about things that are probably unknown to many on the list, so when I feel that, I tend to go overboard trying to contextualize stuff. I had this whole conversation last night with Murat and Nada where one of them asked me why I liked this music so much--and I said that for one thing it's very hybridized stuff. Murat & I talked a lot about that (& in relation to how we're thinking about writing these days), how there's this undercurrent of tradition--the instrumentation, the rhythms, the modalities--which are already intensely various--which then get sometimes beautifully or grotesquely or otherwise astonishingly warped by, into, through a number of other influences/styles/modes. And often, especially in Egyptian music--Angham's "Salam Allay" (from her CD "Beth Mein," I think) being the most amazing example I've heard recently--the "integration" is anything but seamless--it's the musical equivalent of very radical cut'n'paste or assemblage or Google-search writing or something. Except with this very traditional undercurrent that the "sampled" elements get warped into. And it's very different from most actual sampling--which usually feels/sounds seamless to me. Except in Euro or American-produced CDs, like some of Khaled's, there isn't really any actual sampling--it's more a stylistic borrowing, but where all of the disparate pieces are wedged in here, there, up here, behind here--intricately and endlessly hippogriffed. So, I have this love of/fascination with multiplicity, in general & including in writing, when it happens, but that I think has been most successfully made manifest in much middle eastern music, and some popular southeast Asian music and some east Euro music, too. Which is why I'm posting endlessly about it, I guess--it's been very influencial / inspirational stuff for me. (If I had time & could think clearly today I'd write something about "assimilation" and how this music distorts, undercuts, & otherwise plays with ideas of "assimilation," & the political & social ramifactions of that, which I think would be interesting to think about.) Anyway. I've been poking around online and found places to get some of the music mentioned--most notably, the Music of Lebanon site, which sells CDs for $10.95 and tapes for $3.49! And they have *lots* of Najwa! http://www.musicoflebanon.com/nkaram.htm ... will take you right there; just scroll down to where it says "Buy Najwa Karam CDs and Cassettes and click on that. Some great ones to start with are: "Ya Habayeb" (listed as "Ya 7abaayeb") "Naghmet Hob" ("Naghmet 7ob") and *especially* "Hazzy Hilo" (listed as "7azzi 7elow"). That tape will make your hair stand on end! Though not for hippogriff reasons so much as, like, The Pixies kind of reasons: it's gritty, catchy, nearly out of control. (The Egyptian stuff is the really hippogriffy stuff.) The musicoflebanon site has lots of sample tracks, too. (Most of these below do, too, actually.) A couple other great middle-eastern/arabic music sites where you can get CDs (and maybe cassettes) are: http://www.aramusic.com/ http://www.rashid.com The Rashid one above is for the store in Brooklyn (on Court Street a block or two south of Atlantic Avenue), and they have a great online catalog. I know they have some Asalah and Kazem CDs for 4.95 on sale right now--or did a month ago, anyway--plus pretty much all of their Algerian music, except for really popular stuff like Khaled and Cheb Mami. They have an 800 number listed there as well. http://www.nagham.com/ Nagham (above) has specials on CDs for $5 and tapes for $1.99! They're in Plano, Texas--no street address, just a P.O. Box. And here's a whole list of links to other places to get the music online: http://leb.net/rma/list.html Okay, I have to go back to work. Have fun! Gary _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:53:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: A World of Difference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" So glad you thought so, Pierre. There were a number of real hits for me: the amazingly hardscrabble years of poverty with Helene, the early enthusiasms for Reich and Olson (there's a paper to be written there, scholars!), the mature poetics in embryo as early as 1952. I'm not so sure about the necessity for a second volume, actually -- it's true that it only goes up through the beginning of *Gunslinger* (about 1968), but there are a few short telescopic references to the later work, and it would be hard, I think, to duplicate the melange of biography/poetics as effectively as he does here. I was a *little* bothered by the lack of footnotes and other scholarly apparatus, but that would have made it a very different book. A couple of quotes, then: from a 1952 letter presaging the prose piece "C, B & Q": "These people on 12th Street, the skid row of K.C., have mixed, conglomerate, fantastically inconsistent manners, ways. Most of them, on the one hand, have murdered or done bodily harm for the price of a draught beer, yet these same ones, in a tavern, which almost always reeks with their faintly puky smell, will spend their last dime for a beer for you and be insulted if you decline they are so kind with you, so concerned, they are so gentle, yet a Negro can't go into the same bar with them, these lowest of lows, . . . I have found in the men I have come onto and talked with the most incredible kind of unobjectiveness. They have absolutely *no* sense of objective. And fact is completely unknown. I have largely kept my mouth shut and listened. The impulse to point out prejudice and superstition is great but I have succeeded in listening, at last, silently. Because one of the first things I learned was the uselessness, the hopelessness of argument with these people. Which brings me to a point. [What I have] said about availability and reality (an earlier reference to Olson's "Human Universe"), excuse me for. It is so easy to intellectualize about that. And there is great danger in intelligence only. It is too easy to say, to talk, as I have heard only meaningless empty talk these past few days, about the things we should be living, but are so crippled, by now, that mere talk itself has become the objective." (143) In 1961, Denise Levertov was poetry editor of *The Nation* and took an early poem of Dorn's called "Hemlocks" -- a reader wrote in and asked about "the theory of poetry under which this becomes a poem" -- Dorn wrote back to say, in part: "In the early part of the century the preoccupation continuously shifted from problems of feet and strictly scansionable lines to problems of what was then called image and is now not called anything with consistency. The freedom would seem to lie now in a search for Right content, form rather following that." . . . (and later in a 1963 radio interview) "I don't think about measure and line, in a technical sense, that much. Clots of phrase, really. And not Olson's 'breath' because . . . [it's] a false problem . . . I think it will become less important as the content of our speech becomes more important -- as what we're saying becomes more important to all of us." {Clark then writes]: "In this formulation, it appears that content is not, as in the legendary Creeley dictum, simply 'extended' by form; content rather *is form*, or at least dictates all formal considerations." (Sorry for this very long post). Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:08:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: Books, music and one film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> yes, and why up to this point has it all been limited to books&music? i'm close reading every John Milius and John Cassavetes movie I can find this summer. little poetry incorporates pieces of time as well as these films. << I just saw the brilliant new documentary on Cassavetes, "A Constant Forge" - which has me wanting to watch all his films again... Gwynne G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Books In-Reply-To: <199120-220028516163240621@M2W086.mail2web.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kevin Killian says, responding to Derek R: >Hmmm, that's a provocative way of looking at it. You could be >right. What does everyone else think? I Reply: I'm still waiting for the voices to tell me what I think. I'll have to get back to you. Ahem, "But seriously folks . . ." very few specific cross-overs on these lists so far as I can tell. And why not stand behind what you've been reading? It makes sense to me, though, that people on this list, the way this list is, would be reading similar things, things not, um, widely known. Is "known" the right word? Should it be "things not widely discussed"? Maybe I should just say "obscure"? Or maybe "endorsed by the cultural machinery"? Then I must admit that I haven't heard of most of the books people have listed here. So I guess I have to look them up. Drat, homework. And here I thought I was well read! Well, gotta get going . . . Best, JG ------------------------ J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:08:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: James Kopta 1972-2002 In-Reply-To: <3D5D4477.BFF53883@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm sorry, but can someone repost the original obituary, or backchannel it to me? I think I missed it, and only after reading David Baratier's posting do I realize that I think I might have known Jim--I think I went to high school with him, or at least with his friends. The band he was in, the Brown Cuts Neighbors, were formed one day in gym class when a bunch of us were sitting around trying to avoid running the track at Niskayuna High School in Schenectady, NY (this was the late 80s). Jason Martin and some other guys (Rob Goodale, I think?) were talking about starting a band, even though they didn't really play any instruments. We thought it was a joke. Then they came out with a little tape--"Broken Down Like a Bean"--and gave out copies with handmade covers around school...I think I still have mine. The songs were totally insane and wonderful: one of my favorites was called "Running Naked on Peyote" and it still gets stuck in my head to this day. I moved away from the Capital District of upstate NY after high school, and so it was always amazing to me to go back to Albany and see BCN written up as a serious avant-noise collective in the local papers. To me they were always just a bunch of the craziest guys in my high school. I went to a show they did once on Niska-Day, the annual town pride festival, in which they played alongside other, far more conventional bands. BCN were nuts, of course, playing conceptual hardcore until some school administrator pulled the plug. It was a great event. I'm sorry to hear about Jim. Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:10:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Listening and Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Listening: Anything I can find Gidon Kremer's recorded, esp. From My Home (a better performance of Fratres than on Tabula Rasa), and the Beethoven sonatas with Martha Argerich; Lukas Foss's piano concertos; (guilty schizy pleasure cheese) David Sylvian's Camphor; the Nigeria 70 compilation; anything I can find by U Roy, esp. "Great Great Great" on the Trojan Rare Groove box; (guilty pop depression cheese) The Strokes; any Ramones on any jukebox, ditto NY Dolls, ditto the Who. Reading: Susan Schultz's Aleatory Allegories, and Memory Cards/Adoption Papers (old and new testaments of syntax - the subsidiary clauses given up, it all falls together); Susan Wheeler's Smokes and Source Codes; Karen Volkman's Spar and Jennifer Moxley's Sense Record (two eerily similar second books); Paul Muldoon's Moy Sand and Gravel, Hay, and The Annals of Chile; Karen Horney's Self-Analysis and Our Inner Conflicts (viva August break!); galleys for the late Kenneth Koch's Sun Out poems 52-54 and A Possible World (due in October); Ron Padgett's You Never Know; Drew Gardner's Sugar Pill (rocks!); Kaia Sand's and Tom Orange's summer subpoetics self-publish-or-perish books; Bivouac 2; the friggin WSJ and FT, gotta break that compulsion, ditto Bloomberg; Steve Burt's essay on Rae Armantrout in the Boston Review (forgive him for coining "elliptical poets", this one's worth a look); galleys for my forthcoming Million Poems Journal. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:53:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Listening and Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jordan? what is a subpoetics self-publish-or-perish book? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:58:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Books, music and one film MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/16/02 1:25:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Joseph.Safdie@LWTC.CTC.EDU writes: > Edward Dorn: A World of Difference* -- Tom Clark (North Atlantic) > --- I realize that about six people in the country have read this new > biography of Dorn by Tom Clark, but I thought one of them might be on this > list. If so, could you back-channel me? Would love to talk about it. > > I've read it. Not bad. But interesting in terms of what it chose not to cover. A consequence I'd guess of the discretion being exercised by Clark. I await a more comprehensive effort. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:07:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: A Boston Winter Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Please backchannel ideas or proposals for A Boston Winter Poetry Festival, to be held at Wordsworth Books in Harvard Square 12/6/02-12/8/02. Panels to include discussions and readings of the works of Stephen Jonas, John Wieners and Gerrit Lansing, and conversations centering around Boston magazines through the years: (MEASURE, SET, BOSTON EAGLE, FIRE EXIT, COMPOUND EYE, MASS AVE, PRESSED WAFER, etc) and a discussion about the lasting effects of reading series WORD OF MOUTH. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:20:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: A Boston Winter Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Apologies. Please also backchannel ideas and proposals for a panel discussing and reading the work of Fanny Howe. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:53:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: the Dorn deal In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When I read it quite a number of years ago, I was really blown away by Slinger. But the other bits and pieces I've randomly come across haven't seemed to me to be anywhere near the same level. As i say, tho, this exposure has been limited and haphazard. Any recommendations? steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:25:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Email for Leonard Brink Please.... Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anyone have Leonard Brink's email? Please send b/c. I seem to be have an old e-dress. mucho gracias, Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:36:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: ** POETRY CENTER Fall 2002 Calendar ** In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ---Steve had some difficulties sending this to the list and asked that it b= e sent for him. Some super events coming up if your in the Nor Cal Area--- THE POETRY CENTER & AMERICAN POETRY ARCHIVES Fall 2002 readings schedule (all Thursdays, except as indicated) * Friday August 30 Philip Whalen Memorial Reading co-sponsored w/Hartford Street Zen Center, & MFA Writing Program, USF at Presentation Theater, USF (formerly The Gershwin Theater), 2350 Turk Blvd (near Masonic) 7:00 pm * September 5 Welcome Reading for new Dean of Humanities Paul Sherwin featuring SFSU faculty & grad-students Nona Caspers, Leo Litwak, Minoo Moallem, Mukta Sambrani, Truong Tran & Peter Weltner at Humanities Auditorium HUM 133, SFSU, Noon * September 12 Erin Mour=E9 & Kent Johnson afternoon at Poetry Center, "Possibilities of Translation: an open discussion" 3:30 pm; evening reading at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * Saturday September 21 Lorine Niedecker, a celebration of her work with Jenny Penberthy & special guests: Glenna Breslin, Norma Cole, Beverly Dahlen, Kathleen Fraser, Thom Gunn & August Kleinzahler at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * September 26 Stacy Doris & Chet Wiener at The Poetry Center, 7:30 pm * October 10 Lawson Fusau Inada & Al Robles open discussion at The Poetry Center, 3:30 pm; reading at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * October 24 Larry Kearney & Jaime MacInnis at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm * October 31 Alejandro Murguia & Los Delicados at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm * Tuesday November 5 Cecilia Vicu=F1a co-sponsored w/Graduate Program in Visual Criticism at California College of Arts and Crafts, and Small Press Traffic, at CCAC, 7:30 pm * November 7 George Albon: the George Oppen Memorial Lecture at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * Wednesday November 20 Ron Padgett co-sponsored w/SF Art Institute, at SFAI Lecture Hall, 7:30 pm * November 21 Dodie Bellamy & Lynn Breedlove at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm * December 5 ThisIsAECA! Alliance of Emerging Creative Artists Summi Kaipa, Leon Lee, Neil Straghalis, Jeff Chan & Kirthi Nath collaborate on a multi-disciplinary project utilizing poetry, music & film at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm for further info see our calendar or website www.sfsu.edu/~poetry later in August, or telephone 415-338-2227 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru =20 Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn =20 ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) =20 ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:45:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: burning code MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII burning code nikuko the world is out to kill us off! ________________________________________________ /NIKUKO THE WORLD IS OUT TO KILL US OFF! | ] ]] |] ]]] |111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111| |22]2]2222222222222]22222222]22222]22222222222222| |3333333]333333]3333333]3]3333]]33333333333333333| |444]44444444444]44444]4444444444]444444444444444| |]55555555]55555555555555555555555555555555555555| |66666]66666]]6666666]6666]666666666]]]6666666666| |77777777777777777777777777777777777777]777777777| |88888888]88888888888888888888888888888]888888888| |9]99999999999]999]9999999999]9999999999999999999| |________________________________________________| i will always be first at barricades! /I WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AT BARRICADES! ]]]]] |1111111]11]111111111111]1111111]1111]11111111111| |222222222222]2]22222]222222222]22222222]22222222| |3333]]33]333333333333]33]3]33333333]333333333333| |4444444444444444444444444444444444444]4444444444| |555555555555555]555555555555]555555555]555555555| |66]666666]6666666]666666666666666666666666666666| |7777777777777777777777777777777777777777]7777777| |88888888888]888888888888888]888888888888]8888888| |]99]99999999999999]]999999999999]]]9999999999999| nikuko, am afraid of universal slaughter! /NIKUKO, I AM AFRAID OF UNIVERSAL SLAUGHTER! |1111111111]11]11]1111111111111]1111]111111111111| |22]2]222222222222222222222222]222]22222222222222| |333333]333333333333333333333333]33]3333]33333333| |444]4444444]444444]4444]444444444444]44444444444| |]55555555555555555555555]5]]555555555555]5555555| |66666]66666666]66666]]66666666666666666666666666| |7777777777777777777777777777777777777]7777]77777| |888888]8888888888888888888888888888888]888]88888| |9]999999]999999]9]9999999]99]999999999999]999999| awake /AWAKE AWAKE |]1]111]1]111111111111111111111111111111111111111| |222]22222]22222222222222222222222222222222222222| |333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333| |444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444| |5555]55555]5555555555555555555555555555555555555| |6]66666]6666666666666666666666666666666666666666| |777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777| |888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888| |999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999| we must leave behind! WE MUST LEAVE BEHIND! ]]]] |111111111111111111]11111111111111111111111111111| |22]2]22222222]222222222222222222]222222222222222| |333333]3333333]3]33333]333333]333333333333333333| |444]4444444]]44444444444444444]444444]4444444444| |]55555555]5555555]5]]555]55555555]55]55555555555| |66666]66]66666666666666666]]66666666666666666666| |888888]8888888888888888]8888888888]888]888888888| |9]99999999999999999999999999]999999]999999999999| awake, awake! /AWAKE, AWAKE! |]1]1111]1]11111111111111111111111111111111111111| |222]222222]2222222222222222222222222222222222222| |33333]333333333333333333333333333333333333333333| |5555]555555]555555555555555555555555555555555555| |6]666666]666666666666666666666666666666666666666| |777777777777]77777777777777777777777777777777777| |88888]888888]88888888888888888888888888888888888| your mouth seizing mine! /YOUR MOUTH SEIZING MINE! |222222222222]2]222222222222222222222222222222222| |33333333]333333333333333333333333333333333333333| |44]44]4]44444444444444]4444444444444444444444444| |555555555555555]555]5555]]5555555555555555555555| |6]6666]66666666666666666666666666666666666666666| |77777777777777777777]77777]777777777777777777777| |]88888888]8888888888888888]888888888888888888888| |999]9999999]9999]]]9999]999999999999999999999999| in wires! BURNING IN YOUR WIRES! |11]111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111| |22222]2222222222222222222]2222222222222222222222| |444]44]44444444444]44444444444444444444444444444| |55555555]5]555]555555555]55555555555555555555555| |66666666666666666]666]66666666666666666666666666| |77777777777]77777777777777]777777777777777777777| |8888888888888888]888888888]888888888888888888888| |]999999]9]999]99999]99]]999999999999999999999999| Nikuko, Nikuko! NIKUKO! |22]2]22222]2]22222222222222222222222222222222222| |333333]33333333333333333333333333333333333333333| |444]4444444]444444444444444444444444444444444444| |]5555555]555555555555555555555555555555555555555| |66666]6666666]6666666666666666666666666666666666| |77777777777777]777777777777777777777777777777777| |888888]8888888]888888888888888888888888888888888| |9]9999999]99999999999999999999999999999999999999| $ exit done on 23:41:00 2002 _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: music thread report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Amen to the Threadgill thread -- Have followed him from Air through Very Very Circus to now, and varied appearances on the works of others -- Wonderful work (and another friend to poets!) -- On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:04:08 +0000, Andrea Baker wrote: > I've been listening to a lot of that Nancarrow. Also, for listeners up that > alley and the jazz alley, if anyone mentioned Henry Threadgill I missed it. > We're a household of devote listeners to his CD's, especially Song in My > Trees, and, most especially, the song entitled Grief. It's halting. > > Andrea > > > From: ALDON L NIELSEN > > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:01:08 -0400 > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: music thread report > > > > Listening this morning to one of the great underappreciated soul/jazzy > > singer/song writer/pianists of recent decades: Zulema Cusseaux -- Last I'd > > heard, she was mostly retired from music and living in Florida -- there was a > > Best Of CD some years ago that you might come across in used CD stores, BUT it > > leaves out her breath-taking revision of WHITER SHADE OF PALE -- it's from a > > classic album on RCA, simply titled ZULEMA -- Check it out if you possibly can > > -- > > > > also picking up on an earlier music thread -- there is now a multi-CD box (not > > all that expensive) of Conlon Nancarrow's compositions for player piano, so > > that peculiar and marvelous music is now more widely available > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > > --James Joyce > > > > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > > Kelly Professor of American Literature > > The Pennsylvania State University > > 116 Burrowes > > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:22:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Music and Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listening to: Rebecca Moore's Home Wreckordings 1997-1999 and Admiral Charcoal's Song Eszter Balint's Flicker The Dresden Dolls Jill Scott Any and all Jeff Buckley (I love him--could listen to him all day--all night) just went back to Liz Phair's Exile in Guyville Reading: Simply Separate People, new novel by Lynn Crawford Movie Journal: The Rise of a New American Cinema 1959-1971 by Jonas Mekas Jung on Alchemy The Evolving Self: A Psychology for the Third Millennium by Mihaly Csikszentmihaly Ring of Fire by Lisa Jarnot current issue of mark(s), the online journal Chris Tysh co-edits just finished Susan Schultz's Memory Cards/Adoption Papers--loved it -- Wanda Phipps Hey, don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport (and if you have already try it again) poetry, music and more! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 06:55:31 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Comments: To: nikki_intheleaves@yahoo.com, ohearn@yorku.ca, oversion@hotmail.com, oversion9@yahoo.com, palpal@nucleus.com, pasha@ekno.com, pauljkennett@hotmail.com, r_faria@hotmail.com, rayukawa@accessv.com, readrobread@hotmail.com, rishilator@hotmail.com, rknighto@capcollege.bc.ca, rrickey@ucalgary.ca, jryanwaye@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is the third YARD. No open mic, no mic. No featured readers. Yes bring something to read. This means you. Keep in mind the sun sets earlier and it is much colder than it should be. B.Y.O.B. August 31st, 7:00 pm. Be there or be somewhere else. But keep in mind... we may have turtle pools and another impromptu dj set by doug steedman... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:18:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: ** POETRY CENTER Fall 2002 Calendar ** In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ---Steve had some difficulties sending this to the list and asked that it b= e sent for him. Some super events coming up if you're in the Bay Area--- THE POETRY CENTER & AMERICAN POETRY ARCHIVES Fall 2002 readings schedule (all Thursdays, except as indicated) * Friday August 30 Philip Whalen Memorial Reading co-sponsored w/Hartford Street Zen Center, & MFA Writing Program, USF at Presentation Theater, USF (formerly The Gershwin Theater), 2350 Turk Blvd (near Masonic) 7:00 pm * September 5 Welcome Reading for new Dean of Humanities Paul Sherwin featuring SFSU faculty & grad-students Nona Caspers, Leo Litwak, Minoo Moallem, Mukta Sambrani, Truong Tran & Peter Weltner at Humanities Auditorium HUM 133, SFSU, Noon * September 12 Erin Mour=E9 & Kent Johnson afternoon at Poetry Center, "Possibilities of Translation: an open discussion" 3:30 pm; evening reading at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * Saturday September 21 Lorine Niedecker, a celebration of her work with Jenny Penberthy & special guests: Glenna Breslin, Norma Cole, Beverly Dahlen, Kathleen Fraser, Thom Gunn & August Kleinzahler at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * September 26 Stacy Doris & Chet Wiener at The Poetry Center, 7:30 pm * October 10 Lawson Fusau Inada & Al Robles open discussion at The Poetry Center, 3:30 pm; reading at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * October 24 Larry Kearney & Jaime MacInnis at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm * October 31 Alejandro Murguia & Los Delicados at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm * Tuesday November 5 Cecilia Vicu=F1a co-sponsored w/Graduate Program in Visual Criticism at California College of Arts and Crafts, and Small Press Traffic, at CCAC, 7:30 pm * November 7 George Albon: the George Oppen Memorial Lecture at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm * Wednesday November 20 Ron Padgett co-sponsored w/SF Art Institute, at SFAI Lecture Hall, 7:30 pm * November 21 Dodie Bellamy & Lynn Breedlove at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm * December 5 ThisIsAECA! Alliance of Emerging Creative Artists Summi Kaipa, Leon Lee, Neil Straghalis, Jeff Chan & Kirthi Nath collaborate on a multi-disciplinary project utilizing poetry, music & film at The Poetry Center, 4:30 pm for further info see our calendar or website www.sfsu.edu/~poetry later in August, or telephone 415-338-2227 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru =20 Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn =20 ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) =20 ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:12:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: self-publish-or-perish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Miekal - It is an initiative suggested by Juliana Spahr four or five or six summers ago that a group of twenty or thirty poets who were pestering each other on big backchannel cc lists all do something about this persistent invisibility we were complaining about: that we each self-publish a chapbook and mail a copy to all the others. Sort of the mid-year equivalent of a New Year's Day reading -- everybody hears what everybody else is doing. When you have to print something and transact with the USPS, "everybody" is going to be limited to the people on the address lists, but as they say in the corporate world, resource questions tend to answer themselves. DIY means save a little money and time for beer. As an aside, I'm pretty sure it was the good vibe of the self-po that led Anselm Berrigan to propose the somewhat more ambitious Subpress project, in which seventeen or eighteen writers donate one percent of their income to a small press they run collectively. Subpress' books include Edwin Torres's Fractured Humorous, Catalina Cariaga's Cultural Evidence, Jen Hofer's slide rule, Dan Bouchard's Diminutive Revolutions, Steve Malmude's The Bundle, Prageeta Sharma's Bliss to Fill, John Wilkinson's Oort's Cloud, and I believe forthcoming titles from Hoa Nguyen, Brett Evans, Ben Friedlander, and Dug Rothschild. Who'd I forget. Scott Bentley, John McNally, Camille Guthrie, and Caroline Sinavaiana-Gabbard. These are both just potlatches and cooperatives, not to minimize the effort and headache of either. But given how committed most readers and writers of poetry are, not to speak of rebellious and independent, it surprises me every month to overhear others (and myself!) resentful that they haven't been given an opportunity to participate in x reading series, y magazine, or z book-publisher. Why not just get a saddle-stapler (or a copy of Adobe Acrobat), make something, and give it to people you want to read you? (Miekal, I know you are the soul of DIY. I just splaining this particular instance.) Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:53:17 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Saneh Saadati Subject: Music and books and thanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

Lately i have been listening to Bobby Mack and some Aynsley Lister. Note that this music (personal experience from recommendation fr a friend) should only be listened to on high volume, and listened to sitting in a different room from the one were the  music is screaming.

right now i am finally reading Italo Calvino's 'If on a winter night's a traveler'.

A big thanks to Pierre Joris for his music suggestions. Especially the 'Keroauc tip'.

Saneh Saadati


Med MSN Foto kan du enkelt dela med dig av dina fotografier och beställa kopior: Klicka här
========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:02:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Music and Books Comments: To: wanda.interport@RCN.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Buffalo Soldiers, I'm listening to a lot of Bob Marley and reading (trying to read) Timothy = White's biography Catch a Fire, which I find a little strange. I just got Tony Bird's = "Sorry Africa" which I first heard songs from 14 years ago on Cape Cod and = have remembered ever since. I'm reading Maya Lin's Boundaries and a transcript of her Cooper Union = lecture for her "Between Art and Architecture" exhibition in 2000. Plus a = lot of self-help books. Mairead >>> wanda.interport@RCN.COM 08/17/02 01:30 AM >>> Listening to: Rebecca Moore's Home Wreckordings 1997-1999 and Admiral Charcoal's Song Eszter Balint's Flicker The Dresden Dolls Jill Scott Any and all Jeff Buckley (I love him--could listen to him all day--all night) just went back to Liz Phair's Exile in Guyville Reading: Simply Separate People, new novel by Lynn Crawford Movie Journal: The Rise of a New American Cinema 1959-1971 by Jonas Mekas Jung on Alchemy The Evolving Self: A Psychology for the Third Millennium by Mihaly Csikszentmihaly Ring of Fire by Lisa Jarnot current issue of mark(s), the online journal Chris Tysh co-edits just finished Susan Schultz's Memory Cards/Adoption Papers--loved it -- Wanda Phipps Hey, don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport (and if you have already try it again) poetry, music and more! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:04:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Poetry Center Celebration for Lorine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * Saturday September 21 Lorine Niedecker, a celebration of her work with Jenny Penberthy & special guests: Glenna Breslin, Norma Cole, Beverly Dahlen, Kathleen Fraser, Thom Gunn & August Kleinzahler at Unitarian Center, 7:30 pm It's too bad that Cid Corman wasn't asked to take part in this. He was only Lorine's good friend and one of the few people still around who actually met her in the flesh. How about including a tape recording of Cid reading his poems for her, or reading from the letters? Or maybe a video? Or how about an internet hook-up? Cid is on-line. Cid was also asked by Lorine to be her literary executor and--you know-- he doesn't make a penny from it, though he could sorely use the money. He's really helped L.N. scholarship by his continuing generosity in this regard. I've noticed a few people on the list mentioning The Granite Pail's selection as being quite good. That collection was edited by Cid Corman. Not to mention the fact that Cid and the (late, Cid says) Gail Raub rescued lots of L.N's work--including persoanl papers, early on. "To be absent is to be dead" goes a Zen saying. How true. How true. Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:02:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephanie Williams Subject: An unpleasant harassment note from an anonymous figure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all - Yes, an unpleasant note was sent from my email address to Mr. Herron. I have privately apologized to him, and offer the same to you. My young house guest seems to have randomly read my email, and singled out Mr. Herron's posting for response. Thank you. Stephanie Williams ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 05:21:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Shizumi's Eyes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just recently I had to assure someone that Cid Corman really is in bad financial straits. Without going into details I can assure you all of that fact. Shizumi, Cid's wife, jokes that when she met and married Cid she thought she was marrying a "rich American." She's a great lady, with a great sense of humor. Cid--now in his late 70s-- depends on her for almost everything. Shizumi has an eye condition that requires surgery and of course they cannot afford to pay for it. Cid made a choice years and years ago to live outside academia and to practice his art in perfect freedom, which is all well and good when you have more years ahead of you than behind. I believe that certain channels had been set up earlier via people on this list to help Cid and Shizumi. If those folks could please try to help again, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:40:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Noah Eli Gordon Subject: Call for submissions/ Baffling Combustions #1 available now: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Baffling Combustions is now reading for issue two... send work w/ an SASE Issue one features the work of the editors: eric baus, noah eli gordon, dorothea lasky, nick moudry, travis nichols, becky rosen & sara veglahn Hand-bound with original monotype print covers limited to 50 copies $6 checks (made out to Noah Gordon) Baffling Combustions POBOX 1471 Northampton, MA 01061 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:55:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Re: - the last part - please forgive me for intruding - I think in a way this is too limited, because it doesn't take distribution models into account. It keeps things going, as at least one of the lists did that was descended from Poetics, in the same circles, the same resonances. To have a book on a shelf in an unknown bookstore in an unknown town, to have new readers, to have the potential of new exchanges, brings writing closer to the culture, expands horizons, creates an edge. Miekal has been able to do that through extended publications, articles on his work or by him in other magazines, list participations, and a terrific decades history of publication - I first saw his work in Atlanta nineteen years ago. (One of my best memories is hearing my record on the radio when I was driving across the US in the late 80s for example.) Writing, poetry in particular, cuts itself off precisely by self-publica- tion, unless one has the financial means for distribution. And like an exclusive poetry list, this creates a kind of elitism - I'll associate with _X_, but not with _Y_ for whatever reason - Alan On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Jordan Davis wrote: > Miekal - > > It is an initiative suggested by Juliana Spahr four or five or six summers > ago that a group of twenty or thirty poets who were pestering each other > on big backchannel cc lists all do something about this persistent > invisibility we were complaining about: that we each self-publish a > chapbook and mail a copy to all the others. Sort of the mid-year > equivalent of a New Year's Day reading -- everybody hears what everybody > else is doing. When you have to print something and transact with the > USPS, "everybody" is going to be limited to the people on the address > lists, but as they say in the corporate world, resource questions tend to > answer themselves. DIY means save a little money and time for beer. > > As an aside, I'm pretty sure it was the good vibe of the self-po that led > Anselm Berrigan to propose the somewhat more ambitious Subpress project, > in which seventeen or eighteen writers donate one percent of their income > to a small press they run collectively. Subpress' books include Edwin > Torres's Fractured Humorous, Catalina Cariaga's Cultural Evidence, Jen > Hofer's slide rule, Dan Bouchard's Diminutive Revolutions, Steve Malmude's > The Bundle, Prageeta Sharma's Bliss to Fill, John Wilkinson's Oort's > Cloud, and I believe forthcoming titles from Hoa Nguyen, Brett Evans, Ben > Friedlander, and Dug Rothschild. Who'd I forget. Scott Bentley, John > McNally, Camille Guthrie, and Caroline Sinavaiana-Gabbard. > > These are both just potlatches and cooperatives, not to minimize the > effort and headache of either. But given how committed most readers and > writers of poetry are, not to speak of rebellious and independent, it > surprises me every month to overhear others (and myself!) resentful that > they haven't been given an opportunity to participate in x reading series, > y magazine, or z book-publisher. Why not just get a saddle-stapler (or a > copy of Adobe Acrobat), make something, and give it to people you want to > read you? > > (Miekal, I know you are the soul of DIY. I just splaining this particular > instance.) > > Jordan > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:10:05 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Re: Shizumi's Eyes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit having made much the same choice as Cid Corman, I can assure you that it's not easy. I'm sure many on this list have made similar choices. Potes & Poets Press would like to help Cid with a donation of books. please backchannel either myself ( bramhall52@earthlink.net ) or Beth ( emgarrison@earthlink.net ). Cid's book Root Song was the first perfectbound book this press published. Allen Bramhall ----- Original Message ----- From: "jesse glass" To: Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 8:21 AM Subject: Shizumi's Eyes > Just recently I had to assure someone that Cid Corman really is in bad > financial straits. Without going into details I can assure you all of that > fact. > > Shizumi, Cid's wife, jokes that when she met and married Cid she thought she > was marrying a "rich American." She's a great lady, with a great sense of > humor. Cid--now in his late 70s-- depends on her for almost everything. > > Shizumi has an eye condition that requires surgery and of course they cannot > afford to pay for it. > > Cid made a choice years and years ago to live outside academia and to > practice his art in perfect freedom, which is all well and good when you > have more years ahead of you than behind. > > I believe that certain channels had been set up earlier via people on this > list to help Cid and Shizumi. If those folks could please try to help > again, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:43:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT although I will say that putting a lot of stuff online -- hundreds of pages -- like so many of us do seems to be a little less coterie-like -- send me links! do consider not just making stuff available as pdf -- what's so bad about html? definitely seems to be bringing together the english-speaking middle class Be well, Catherine Daly contributing editor RelativeLinks (e-chapbook reviews) http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:48:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: julu expansion rit-raw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII julu expansion rit-raw ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, --..--, ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, --..--, ... , ... , .-.-.-, .-.-.-, .-.-.-, ... , --..--, ... , === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:57:06 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan--- I don't mean to sound contentious---I mean this in genuine curiosity, but how does this tally with your "saturate the email listserve" philosophy? Isn't that self publication? C Alan Sondheim wrote: > Re: - the last part - please forgive me for intruding - > > I think in a way this is too limited, because it doesn't take distribution > models into account. It keeps things going, as at least one of the lists > did that was descended from Poetics, in the same circles, the same > resonances. To have a book on a shelf in an unknown bookstore in an > unknown town, to have new readers, to have the potential of new exchanges, > brings writing closer to the culture, expands horizons, creates an edge. > Miekal has been able to do that through extended publications, articles on > his work or by him in other magazines, list participations, and a terrific > decades history of publication - I first saw his work in Atlanta nineteen > years ago. (One of my best memories is hearing my record on the radio when > I was driving across the US in the late 80s for example.) > > Writing, poetry in particular, cuts itself off precisely by self-publica- > tion, unless one has the financial means for distribution. > > And like an exclusive poetry list, this creates a kind of elitism - I'll > associate with _X_, but not with _Y_ for whatever reason - > > Alan > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Jordan Davis wrote: > > > Miekal - > > > > It is an initiative suggested by Juliana Spahr four or five or six summers > > ago that a group of twenty or thirty poets who were pestering each other > > on big backchannel cc lists all do something about this persistent > > invisibility we were complaining about: that we each self-publish a > > chapbook and mail a copy to all the others. Sort of the mid-year > > equivalent of a New Year's Day reading -- everybody hears what everybody > > else is doing. When you have to print something and transact with the > > USPS, "everybody" is going to be limited to the people on the address > > lists, but as they say in the corporate world, resource questions tend to > > answer themselves. DIY means save a little money and time for beer. > > > > As an aside, I'm pretty sure it was the good vibe of the self-po that led > > Anselm Berrigan to propose the somewhat more ambitious Subpress project, > > in which seventeen or eighteen writers donate one percent of their income > > to a small press they run collectively. Subpress' books include Edwin > > Torres's Fractured Humorous, Catalina Cariaga's Cultural Evidence, Jen > > Hofer's slide rule, Dan Bouchard's Diminutive Revolutions, Steve Malmude's > > The Bundle, Prageeta Sharma's Bliss to Fill, John Wilkinson's Oort's > > Cloud, and I believe forthcoming titles from Hoa Nguyen, Brett Evans, Ben > > Friedlander, and Dug Rothschild. Who'd I forget. Scott Bentley, John > > McNally, Camille Guthrie, and Caroline Sinavaiana-Gabbard. > > > > These are both just potlatches and cooperatives, not to minimize the > > effort and headache of either. But given how committed most readers and > > writers of poetry are, not to speak of rebellious and independent, it > > surprises me every month to overhear others (and myself!) resentful that > > they haven't been given an opportunity to participate in x reading series, > > y magazine, or z book-publisher. Why not just get a saddle-stapler (or a > > copy of Adobe Acrobat), make something, and give it to people you want to > > read you? > > > > (Miekal, I know you are the soul of DIY. I just splaining this particular > > instance.) > > > > Jordan > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:56:39 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Porn-o-matic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I. Creep into the line to rob and skip. The moaning sounds within. Tremble. Prop up, stretch again and jump in the pool. Spark, singe, and reach for my pants. Rubber bend. Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:15:30 -0700 From: august highland Subject: pornalisa hello my name is pornalisa two weeks ago august highland under the tutelage of alan sondheim posed the question is there a place in literature for pornography many responses to this question made it clear that yes there was a place by coincidence i was working on a literary project with pornography as a principle element in this project now the project is complete it is my innermost desire that you visit my project and that you enjoy it as much as i enjoyed created it thanks to all of you pornalisa www.pornalisa.com Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:22:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish In-Reply-To: <000e01c2463f$80ac61a0$8f9966d8@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:43 PM 8/17/02 -0700, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >although I will say that putting a lot of stuff online -- hundreds of >pages -- like so many of us do seems to be a little less coterie-like -- I think that not everyone enjoys reading poetry while seated at a computer. I need some repose to read properly, and I find that none comes, at my desk LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:32:12 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish In-Reply-To: <000e01c2463f$80ac61a0$8f9966d8@CADALY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a fair amount of poetry on my site www.sporkworld.org -- a good 50 poems, in readable HTML format...but...it isn't up to date and I'd like somehow to add to it easily and have people se what I'm writing _now_. I did the site myself, and of course know how to update it, but it is a pain. On the other hand I should at least be doing that since I am not getting published... I must admit that one reason I don't get published is I am not submitting...or barely. It's just discouraging. I would be happy to be in some of the nice web zines that are now appear8ing or in the smaller journals but when I have limited energy (I am ill) I'd rather write than submit. Sometimes I get some help with this from my (gasp! mother -- who is also a writer) and then occasinally, not even rarely enough that I have a rignt to complain, I get something in. But it is an exhasiting process. I have the skills to self publish well (desktop publishing etc.) and would be interested in doing so if there was some way to get other people to see the result -- other meaning other than my circle of poetry people and so on. Alan is right, self-publishing is nice but it would be nicer to be in a bookstore... Some poems really must be in PDF to have full appeal. I did a parody of Language Poetry (a loving prody) which had very particular page layout, and it is very hard to do that in pure html. And I've done a few vsiual/concrete ooems. But in general you are right. People lock up their poems in PDFs when they are just plain text and could be beautifully laid out html, searchable on the net and you wouldn't end up in the acrobat reader and get confused, after having to download. I think some people want to make sire you get their entire new collection instead of just the one poem you are looking at, and that is misguided. It irritates me, and I won't read someone's entire collection unles I like the first poem anyway... Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 6:43 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish although I will say that putting a lot of stuff online -- hundreds of pages -- like so many of us do seems to be a little less coterie-like -- send me links! do consider not just making stuff available as pdf -- what's so bad about html? definitely seems to be bringing together the english-speaking middle class Be well, Catherine Daly contributing editor RelativeLinks (e-chapbook reviews) http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:43:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: African-American Poetries Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List Folk: I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be defined variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have "innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. Jean Toomer Elouise Loftin Julia Fields Amiri Baraka Nathaniel Mackey Will Alexander Erica Hunt Harryette Mullen Renee Gladman Giovanni Singleton Mark McMorris Thank you, Kathy Lou ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kathy Lou Schultz http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 23:55:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C.S. Giscombe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathy Lou Schultz" To: Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 11:43 PM Subject: African-American Poetries > Dear List Folk: > > I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is > in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be defined > variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have > "innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. > > Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. > > Jean Toomer > Elouise Loftin > Julia Fields > Amiri Baraka > Nathaniel Mackey > Will Alexander > Erica Hunt > Harryette Mullen > Renee Gladman > Giovanni Singleton > Mark McMorris > > Thank you, > Kathy Lou > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Kathy Lou Schultz > http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou > > Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available > Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:58:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: African-American Poetries In-Reply-To: <000e01c2466b$28c32d80$aa0d0e44@vaio> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit akihal oliver... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kathy Lou Schultz" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 11:43 PM > Subject: African-American Poetries > > >> Dear List Folk: >> >> I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is >> in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be > defined >> variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have >> "innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. >> >> Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. >> >> Jean Toomer >> Elouise Loftin >> Julia Fields >> Amiri Baraka >> Nathaniel Mackey >> Will Alexander >> Erica Hunt >> Harryette Mullen >> Renee Gladman >> Giovanni Singleton >> Mark McMorris >> >> Thank you, >> Kathy Lou >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Kathy Lou Schultz >> http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou >> >> Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available >> Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org >> >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:16:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: African-American Poetries In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed off the top of my head... Henry Dumas Jay Wright Lorenzo Thomas John Keene Thomas Sayers Ellis Marlene Nourbese Phillip (Carib-Canadian?) Bessie Smith Sterling Brown Arna Bontemps Helene Johnson At 11:43 PM 8/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Dear List Folk: > >I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is >in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be defined >variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have >"innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. > >Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. > >Jean Toomer >Elouise Loftin >Julia Fields >Amiri Baraka >Nathaniel Mackey >Will Alexander >Erica Hunt >Harryette Mullen >Renee Gladman >Giovanni Singleton >Mark McMorris > >Thank you, >Kathy Lou >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Kathy Lou Schultz >http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou > >Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available >Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:31:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwynne Garfinkle Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wanda Coleman Ntozake Shange Ted Joans Bob Kaufman June Jordan Sonia Sanchez ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:24:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: books (to be read?) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Herman Gollub, _Me and Shakespeare. David Lodge, _Thinks Terry Eagleton, _The Gatekeeper Albert Mobilio's Me With Animal Towering Jeff Berman, _Risky Writing _Writing to be seen_ Grumman and Hill _Homo Sonorus_, Dmitri Bulatov tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:33:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magazinnik Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Keith In a message dated 8/17/2002 11:43:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kathylou@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: > > Dear List Folk: > > I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is > in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be defined > variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have > "innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. > > Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. > > Jean Toomer > Elouise Loftin > Julia Fields > Amiri Baraka > Nathaniel Mackey > Will Alexander > Erica Hunt > Harryette Mullen > Renee Gladman > Giovanni Singleton > Mark McMorris > > Thank you, > Kathy Lou > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:07:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Lusk Subject: Re: African-American Poetries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hope (Hopeton) Anderson At 11:43 PM 8/17/02 -0400, you wrote: >Dear List Folk: > >I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is >in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be defined >variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have >"innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. > >Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. > >Jean Toomer >Elouise Loftin >Julia Fields >Amiri Baraka >Nathaniel Mackey >Will Alexander >Erica Hunt >Harryette Mullen >Renee Gladman >Giovanni Singleton >Mark McMorris > >Thank you, >Kathy Lou >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Kathy Lou Schultz >http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou > >Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available >Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:09:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: African American Poetries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed r.a. washington Julie Patton Wanda Phipps Tonya Foster Paul Beaty Stephen Jonas David Henderson The Last Poets Tom Weatherly Eric Priestly Norman Pritchard Ishmael Reed Quincy Troupe Clarence Major Jay Wright Ed Roberson Russell Atkins _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 03:14:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: dism. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII dism. jusT wok; doesN't crition, knowIng alSo dism. doN't agReifyinG kNowledge in sense "kNowledge in "DrivE; YoU seem to. KnOw, agaiN, Where ArrIvErYthIng kNowIng boDy looks lIkE der SymptOmOlOgy thand ManY nEighbors CoMplEtEd wAtchIng, A drIvE; YoU sUbvE forMatIon. iNoRdiNately usefuL termS iNteRack theRe Woman maNd ManY voYeUrs (or myse aRe KnOw what yoU seem to. KnOmy aRousivE forMatIonE Sexually oBjeCt, detOur knowLeDge" MuchIng, an "Drive fOr Id to sLeeP) but ItSelf, agaiN, Where, CovEr." ThecTing oNto paRousiNgs WhiCh _Do_ coUriSm sImIll be BrieF (goiNg bASed Visual viOle different aetiOlAtIon, knowLege." thEsE aRe KnOw what cArrY same oTheld - powEr masqueRade oTher thIs dIscovEr." Much belieVe GenetIshIzAtIon, owN dIscUr FascinaTeD, aLmosT LikE, How aPpears Qaddafi Clinton World Trade Center Delta Force ammunition NSA counter- intelligence plutonium Legion of Doom arrangements Waco, Texas North Korea Peking Cocaine CIA counter-intelligence NORAD NSA smuggle South Africa Uzi supercomputer explosion PLO FBI Peking Legion of Doom colonel terrorist domestic disruption FSF Ft. Bragg Kennedy [Hello to all my fans in domestic surveillance] spy North Korea South Africa $400 million in gold bullion NORAD Soviet quiche Rule Psix terrorist SDI assassination i jusT woke Up, so this will be BrieF (goiNg bAck tO sLeeP) but I'll wrItE mOre tOmOrrOw. Think is wAy Off marK again. In facT vOyeuriSm sImIlAr Of coUrsE thE DiaLecTic masocHism. doN't agRee heRe, CourSe. If weReN'T prImArIlY seXuaL, theRe Would fUndAmEntAl. even questioN reifyinG kNowledge in sense "kNowledge itSelf dOeS iNteRact"; thAt aLreaDy SeemS hiGher leVel me. BelieVe GenetiC dEtErMinIsM, A drIvE; YoU seem to. KnOw, agaiN, Where ArrIvE At momenT... KNowledge SeCondary; it'S onLy usefuL termS species survivaL. no ReasoN "Drive fOr knowLeDge" Much broAdEr SymptOmOlOgy than is. It'S not SpeCifiCity; luRe, vIolAtIon, knowLege." thEsE aRe KnOw what you're geTting At, abOut and powEr, Yes, _seX._ this dIscovEr." TheRe drIvEs suRviVe, seXuaL drIvEs, eTc., fetiShizatiOn pRepaRatioN; wHen I've Seen someone Nude WindOwS, I'M fascinaTeD, aLmosT LiTeraLly spEll-BouNd, hEld - powEr masqueRade oTher thIngs WhiCh _Do_ come inTo Play viS-a-vis wHaTever paSs suPerego or Id todAy AggrEssIons, ViolatioNs, eTc. And ManY voYeUrs (or myselF on thOse few OcCaSiOnS), sUccEss coMplEtEd wAtchIng, an act woman maN sUbvErtIng theiR auTonomy aRousiNg, But has dO with suBveRsioN, ConquerinG, fuCkinG, stAlkIng, wiNdow SeeinG my nEighbors CoOk; doesN't cArrY same faScinatiOn, fEtIshIzAtIon, sexuality doEs. alSo disagRee caThecTing oNto paRt-ObjeCt, detOur From norMal ConSummatiOn. RApIng WhOle different aetiOlOgy. itSelf, lIkE delay maRxist supeR- strUctUrE (From CritiCal theOry viewPoinT) becomes auTonomous, owN dIscUrsIvE forMatIon. Clear its reLaTion, YoUr posts, desiRe, BetRayal, All chArActErIzE seXuaLiTy. can beCome VoyeuR anytime, by lOoKinG out Isn't UnExpEctEd She'S eXpecTeD, Waited-for. Have lItErAl FeVeR idea aRouNd; EvErYonE Sexually oBsessed, majOrity peOple couNtRy fInIsh HigHscHooL. It baSed Visual viOlatiOn. iNoRdiNately TroubLing as MattEr Fact... rapinG. EvErYthIng hYstErIc: one cAn't MovE. No, thAt, gIft; Drive, arOuSal, Transgression, knowIng boDy looks lIkE, How aPpears === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 02:05:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crag Hill Subject: "Crossover" Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: If to "crossover" means to read work outside the mainstream of this list, I recommend the practice. It's like truly listening to a conservative point of view while you're biting your liberal tongue off. I am a "crossover" reader. I read widely. As a high school teacher in a small Idaho college town, I have to. The writing that interests and challenges me -- that I hope will eventually interest and challenge my students as readers and writers -- does not filter into Moscow, Idaho (or Peoria) on its own (or, alas, on the skinny wings of small press poetry distributors). And I don't just read for myself. I've crossed over and read many poets excoriated on this list: Collins, Oliver, Stafford, Bly, Kinnell, and perhaps too many others. I confess, despite the strength of my biases, I have liked some of the poems I have encountered as a teacher-reader. I have even re-read some of them when I put my teacher hat away. As a teacher, I'm always looking for the "gateway drug" for young readers of poetry. I have read all of Billy Collins work this summer, finding a dozen poems that may turn on one of my 17 year-old readers much as Robert Frost turned me on at 15. (Then I met Howl, yow!) Ginsberg, Whalen, Snyder, Waldman, Koch, O'Hara, Levertov, Niedecker, Plath, Kerouac and Silliman (his Tjanting blows my readers away, both content and fibonacci form) have been "gateway drugs" for some young readers who -- put yourself back in those hard, narrow desks -- need immediate returns. Once they have had that first buzz, I find them to be greater risk-takers (not necessarily future heroin addicts), willing to work at reading poetry, able to tangle with concrete/visual poetry, to listen to Coolidge, Basinski, Bennett, Perelman, or poets that I might have read the night before (they rarely read these poets on their own, "unsupervised," nor would they ever consider riding in a car without a designated driver after hearing Eigner or Creeley or even Lee Ann Brown). In fact, to continue the confessional (without invoking Robert Lowell or Sylvia Plath), this crossingover has me conflicted. I want to create life-long readers of poetry -- through my teaching, my writing, my publishing activities -- but I am often underwhelmed by the poetry that gets my students high (the same doesn't happen with prose -- I still get drunk on Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Morrison, Twain, Alice Walker, O'Brien, Vonnegut, Salinger, Julia Alvarez), so sometimes poetry gets short-shrifted. It was a hell of a lot easier when, teaching at Berkeley High School in the early 1990s, I could bring a range of poets into class -- from Spencer Selby to students from June Jordan's classes. That contact high might do more for creating new readers of poetry than books or websites (thus I choke on my bias against poetry slams and such). Best, Crag Hill ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:13:07 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Sunday: AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday In the morning I went with Bob Grumman up to John M. Bennett's house, where we were shown thru his press operation with Ficus Strangulensis and Jim Leftwich. A small box like structure in the shape of a U, each of us were photographed in "the chair" an object heavily resembling a chair but only used for visual & poetic practice. We all went out for coffee and during this I was able to ask Ficus about many of the questions that I didn't ask at his panel (primarily because I had already asked double the number of anyone else). I had a long talk with Jim Leftwich & was able to score a copy of Doubt, Pote & Poets, one of the few epic poems of the last fifty years. & catch up on his motions between editing Juxta & extant. ---------- then @ 349 E Morrill Ave in the heart of Columbus' south end ----------- Unsuspectingly, while I was out buying fresh corn from the farmers a few blocks away, poets were appearing at my house. Although I had stated noon as a start time, there was no real expectation of things beginning then but the hotel had asked everyone to checkout by noon. The downstairs was full so I immediately soaked the corn. While the plan was that Head Chef & Associate Editor, Stephen Mainard, would lead the rest of the Pavement Saw interns into the uncharted area of outdoor barbeque, only Sean Kearns and Toledo James appeared, both of whom are inept grill boys. Veggie burgers and Not Dogs (made with the most heineous leftover parts of vegetable varieties) were served along with corn on the cob roasted in the shuck (& later meat) and a bevy of side dishes. As with any shindig at our house, we ate well & our friends Jackie & Toledo brought an amazing basket of brownies made with plenty of super special ingredients including Ghiardelli chocolate which Camile was thoroughly impressed by, raving it was the best thing she's eaten in the states so far. I began the reading with a non-avant guarde poem, Howdy, a signature piece welcoming all to our space & area of the city. As the crowd further settled down, my lovely wife Rita read a gorgeous poem about our backyard. Muscle cars whined in the far background and dogs were barking as mIEKAL aND took the stage, a de-weeded area of lawn slightly to the left of the walk. At this moment I looked up and counted 35 people, & there were still a few straglers inside. I was really impressed with Igor Satanovsky's readings thru the weekend & this was no different. Around this time my memory goes thin, John M. Bennett read a few, Jesse Glass read a poem to imitate the style of Bennett, John Byrum & Arleen Hartman were there but did not read, the lovely Renee was whisking around taking pictures before after & during Lewis LaCook's reading, and I briefly saw Ed Lense before he disappeared from view. Other highlights I remember include Geoffrey Gatza doing a Legion of Doom poem (you impressed the staff), Jim Leftwich refusing to read anything, Brandon Barr making special arrangements to say goodbye, Joel Lipman did a 70's poem, and near the end Thom Taylor was gyp'd as he read a superb section of Kilobyte Magnificat to a thinning crowd. Somewhere toward the end, our movie star friend Ratboy arrived & really hit it off with Jesse Glass, and they had a discussion about the Japanese mafia due to his uncoverable tattoos, we found out Jesse's wife was expecting & due within a week after his return, congrats on Junko Tennesee. In the closing ceremony, John M. Bennett gave a scintillating speech about visual arts and asparagus which received many encores. Richard Kostelanetz still needs $1.50 (US) to take a subway. While there is much more, that is all I have to contribute. There is a second festival forming, the location, while unstable, appears to be near Baltimore, Maryland. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:36:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: African American Poetries In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Melvin Tolson ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 Tel: (518) 426-0433 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon Fax: (518) 426-3722 Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Robert Kelly Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Gary Sullivan > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:09 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: African American Poetries > > > r.a. washington > Julie Patton > Wanda Phipps > Tonya Foster > Paul Beaty > Stephen Jonas > David Henderson > The Last Poets > Tom Weatherly > Eric Priestly > Norman Pritchard > Ishmael Reed > Quincy Troupe > Clarence Major > Jay Wright > Ed Roberson > Russell Atkins > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:52:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claudia Rankine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ishmael Reed Jayne Cortez ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 09:39:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: self-publish-or-perish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the last 6 months or so Ive been trying to dislodge myself from creating & publishing only in electronic forms. Having been involved in small press pubishing since the late 70s my feeling has been that it has grown flat & predictable, that the energy needed to bring out a couple 100 copies of a title & the effort required to physically distribute the titles could not be justified year after year in the face of how easily it has become to create an international audience & community online. But the last months the Ive seriously been missing print publication, gearing up to bring out long awaited titles from Xexoxial (our book of Bern Porter interviews was accepted in 1990 & still waiting to come out.) & more than anything my creamy desires to be printing hard copy again have been fueled by a couple bookfairs Ive been to lately. To my taste that is the part of the puzzle that has really fallen away, a realtime marketplace where you cannot help but meet & move titles outside of the inner circle. Where are the book fairs? Years ago every region literally had at least one yearly fair that was set up by consortiums of presses. Cross-pollination abounds in this events & typically this is a good measure of if yr titles have a life outside their small circles. Because Xexoxial has done a lot with unique bindings, boxes, hand techniques & has pledged since the beginning to keep its titles affordable, Ive been to bookfairs where we were the only experimental prss in attendance & exposed a lot of unsuspecting browsers to a world they had no idea existed. One of the most encouraging developments to my mind has been a couple bookmobile projects. The Automadic Bookmobile which is co-sponsored by Autonomedia Press & the Bindlestiff Cirkus, has been going around putting on little circus side shows around the country & opening their bookmobile for circus goers to be exposed. When they came thru last week & asked to take a pile of Xexoxial books onboard for the remainder of their tour, I took it as a sure sign that someone is staying up late strategizing new forms of face to face distribution. (They are on the road til november, maybe coming to a town near you.) The folks on the bus also turned my onto another bookmobile (actually an airstream trailer) project funded by Canada Council that is centered around book arts. All this is to say that while the book is here to stay, the distribution & printing models are in need of serious renovation. mIEKAL Alan Sondheim wrote: > Re: - the last part - please forgive me for intruding - > > I think in a way this is too limited, because it doesn't take distribution > models into account. It keeps things going, as at least one of the lists > did that was descended from Poetics, in the same circles, the same > resonances. To have a book on a shelf in an unknown bookstore in an > unknown town, to have new readers, to have the potential of new exchanges, > brings writing closer to the culture, expands horizons, creates an edge. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: African-American Poetries In-Reply-To: <199.b9b57d8.2a90e481@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am not sure if any one said Julie Patton.. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:39:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Shizumi's Eyes In-Reply-To: <000301c246b1$ba0c01e0$6d14d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT jessie glass writes: I Reply: This seems like the thing to do. So, certain channels, please get in touch with the list. Tell us where to send the checks. I've my pen in my hand. Best, JG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:39:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Self-publish or perish Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > given how committed most readers and > writers of poetry are, not to speak of rebellious and independent, it > surprises me every month to overhear others (and myself!) resentful that > they haven't been given an opportunity to participate in x reading series, > y magazine, or z book-publisher. Why not just get a saddle-stapler (or a > copy of Adobe Acrobat), make something, and give it to people you want to > read you? (Jordan Davis) I very much appreciated these thoughts from Jordan and his and Alan's underlining of Miekel's efforts to further distribute important work in contemporary poetry. For me, the issue of self- or cooperative publishing brings to mind another, related, issue, that is, the status of the poem as an object of discovery, as compared to say, a (collectible) object of invention. I feel that if experimental poets utilized a model for our field similar to (an Idealistic, and applicable version of) one of the models used in the sciences, that is the confirmable repeatability of experimental outcomes, as opposed to the unrepeatable singularity of individual inventions, than the obvious next step would be to move towards a much more rapid distribution of confirmable discoveries. The vexing issue is, are poems composed mainly of information (signals) or are they objects that contain mysterious substances that cannot be isolated? Perhaps one of the reasons that many writers don't mind the label "experimental" is that on some, perhaps somewhat unconscious, level they are interested in moving closer to the ideals and methods of science. What if, for example, instead of thinking of poems mainly as collectible objects, they were thought of as experiments in perception? These experiments in perception could then be understood as methods of ascertaining and isolating the way perception operates and, as a result, might bear valuable information about how perception could be expanded or better focused. Instead of promoting standards for better poetry using the old and new masters as examples, experimental poets might encourage standards for evaluating the value of discoveries and the ways that such discoveries could be disseminated and employed in future poetry. I think of such Dada ideas as cutting up a newspaper, shaking around the words and then letting them fall to the table, as the ground for some important contemporary and less recent work in the field of poetry and the plastic arts, for example. Then the frequent practice on the part of poets of more or less repeating some of the methods of some of the more adventuresome poets of the present and the past would be placed in the context of being crucial efforts to further isolate the perceptual processes unearthed by such experiments. I believe some aspects of this approach might place more emphasis on the importance of communicable and utilizable technical discoveries in contemporary poetry and reduce the emphasis on the mystification and hero worship of important figures in the present and the past, and the resulting emphasis on the (tradition creating) imitation and deification of these figures. The relationship between the discoveries latent in past poetry and contemporary poetry might then be more quickly appreciated and understood, placing more attention on the importance of accelerating the sharing of discoveries. Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:53:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Self-Publish or Perish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For what it's worth, this thread's title is also the title of a review = of two of my self-published books in the American Book Review last = summer. Although small presses have published a few of my books, for the most = part I've found it necessary to publish on my own. Until I found a = printer I could afford, I couldn't get my books into the trade paperback = binding that would allow the books to get into the stores. Once I got = perfect-bound paperbacks, I managed to get Ingram and Baker & Taylor to = serve as wholesalers. I schedule readings at bookstores in exchange for = their carrying my work for a few months. It's better than nothing, but = requires a tremendous effort. Many of the people I deal with in = bookstores who book authors events don't know enough about literature in = general too judge my work. One of my key selling points is that I've = read in the Establish and emerging Poets Series at The Poetry Project at = St. Mark's Church, but I'm amazed by how few people in bookstores have = ever heard of it; they keep thinking it's some church basement near = their store that they don't know about.=20 Self-publishing isn't ideal, since I'm very uncomfortable playing = salesman, but it's my only option since the distributors who could help = me most won't accept the work of self-published authors. It's always a = struggle, and a reliable publisher could simplify my life. Meanwhile, I'm finding a home for a lot of my work online in electronic = magazines. People seem to be reading my work, and I'm really gratified. = Naturally, I hope this will eventually lead to online sales of my books. = Because my books are listed through Ingram and Baker & Taylor, they can = be easily ordered. So, I guess I'm in sort of the converse position to mIEKAL aND in terms = of publishing in electronic venues. I enjoy electronic publication, but = I still value print. Print can last if somebody drops their internt = service. I'm spending the winter in Florida, so am renting a table at the Miami = Book Fair International in November. I suspect I'll have the most = radical inventory there, unless FC2 rents a table. If anybody has = information on other book fairs, please post it. In the current market, = it's tough to get any kind of work into a book store. And working in the = avant-garde in any medium is staging a guerilla effort. You have to = strike where you can find a place and then you have to leave because = there's no safe place for you or your work to stay for any length of = time. Vernon Frazer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:58:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an interesting thread. Nick's take is characteristically thoughtful but a little too linear for my taste .Personally I don't want art to be science. More than half of a poem's message is its _mess_, the tangle of ambiguity and unresolvableness that makes it worth returning to again and again. Tom Beckett > I very much appreciated these thoughts from Jordan and his and Alan's > underlining of Miekel's efforts to further distribute important work in > contemporary poetry. For me, the issue of self- or cooperative publishing > brings to mind another, related, issue, that is, the status of the poem as > an object of discovery, as compared to say, a (collectible) object of > invention. I feel that if experimental poets utilized a model for our field > similar to (an Idealistic, and applicable version of) one of the models > used > in the sciences, that is the confirmable repeatability of experimental > outcomes, as opposed to the unrepeatable singularity of individual > inventions, than the obvious next step would be to move towards a much more > rapid distribution of confirmable discoveries. The vexing issue is, are > poems composed mainly of information (signals) or are they objects that > contain mysterious substances that cannot be isolated? Perhaps one of the > reasons that many writers don't mind the label "experimental" is that on > some, perhaps somewhat unconscious, level they are interested in moving > closer to the ideals and methods of science. What if, for example, instead > of thinking of poems mainly as collectible objects, they were thought of > as > experiments in perception? These experiments in perception could then be > understood as methods of ascertaining and isolating the way perception > operates and, as a result, might bear valuable information about how > perception could be expanded or better focused. Instead of promoting > standards for better poetry using the old and new masters as examples, > experimental poets might encourage standards for evaluating the value of > discoveries and the ways that such discoveries could be disseminated and > employed in future poetry. I think of such Dada ideas as cutting up a > newspaper, shaking around the words and then letting them fall to the > table, > as the ground for some important contemporary and less recent work in the > field of poetry and the plastic arts, for example. Then the frequent > practice on the part of poets of more or less repeating some of the methods > of some of the more adventuresome poets of the present and the past would > be > placed in the context of being crucial efforts to further isolate the > perceptual processes unearthed by such experiments. I believe some aspects > of this approach might place more emphasis on the importance of > communicable > and utilizable technical discoveries in contemporary poetry and reduce the > emphasis on the mystification and hero worship of important figures in the > present and the past, and the resulting emphasis on the (tradition > creating) > imitation and deification of these figures. The relationship between the > discoveries latent in past poetry and contemporary poetry might then be > more > quickly appreciated and understood, placing more attention on the > importance > of accelerating the sharing of discoveries. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:48:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish In-Reply-To: <192.bb2e01b.2a911e2d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" yes---nick's ideas are valuable, but i too worry like tom about collapsing art into science... paisley livingston proposed something strikingly similar for literary theory (see ~literary knowledge: humanistic inquiry and the philosophy of science~, cornell up, 1988), and most of the theory mavens i know roundly criticized that book for trying to make the literary object into a scientific object proper (i actually enjoyed livingston's provocation though)... interesting anyway to see this applied to the generative side of things, albeit my misgivings, again, are much the same... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nick and Tom and Joe, et. others. I think this heads in a direction that I looked for in e-poetry but it doesn't seem to have lived up to my hope. Re-reading the people in _Home Sonorus_ and looking again into Bakhtin and the later and experimental Beckett I realize I'm seeking a place on the net where the chaotic life as process can be housed and played with poetically or experimentally over and over again. experiment should be taken here in Antin's sense rather than as science as the jealousy of 'science' immediately raises hackles for some, at least in academic and internet America.. I know there is software that would make this workable but it seems not easily accessible to those of us with little technological or economic means, although I think there are examples from other-world sites. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:05:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: NETWORKS of DECENTRALIZED readingrooms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit another way of making these tools work in the larger world is to establish NETWORKS of DECENTRALIZED readingrooms creating access to people's collections samisdat style is not only urgent & last minute but sustainable & wise. 1 copy read by 10, makes as much or more sense than 1 copy read by 1. so distribution of one's works is not only how many copies do you sell, but putting those copies in places of access where larger random audiences can encounter them. & if nothing else works, putting "steal this book" on the cover seems like a sure way to get your book circulated. mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:10:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joe writes: < i too worry like tom about collapsing art into science... paisley livingston proposed something strikingly similar for literary theory (see ~literary knowledge: humanistic inquiry and the philosophy of science~, cornell up, 1988), and most of the theory mavens i know roundly criticized that book for trying to make the literary object into a scientific object proper > I Reply: Wasn't this an important aspect of New Criticism's foundations as well? Best, JG J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:26:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: African-American Poetries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Stephen Jonas _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:28:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: African-American Poetries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sorry, Gary Sullivan already listed Stephen Jonas. I'd say Fred Moten, too. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:51:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish In-Reply-To: <3D5F9CAF.4304.EBA6725@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" j, yes, i'd say so, esp. with someone like ransom... and frye's ~anatomy of criticism~ extends this analytical development... but, but: livingston is moving from and motioning toward *philosophy of science* per se, which is perhaps to say, his is a bit more theoretically invested (i didn't say this was necessarily a good thing!)... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 15:10:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain and Geoffrey Jacques! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:09:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: the physics of the Rapture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subj: the physics of the Rapture Date: 08/18/2002 11:17:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: alphavil@ix.netcom.com To: JBCM2@aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) Joe. Here's the pertinent Piombino: Somebody should point out to Nick Piombino that Tipler's thesis is dependent upon the universe expanding to the Omega point and then collapsing in upon itself. Current data, however, suggests that the universe will not collapse back in upon itself but rather go on expanding forever, a concept which carries its own mathematical and epistemological difficulties. This renders Tipler's book a bigger christian teleological cowpie than it already was if that's possible. Though Tipler is considered a 'serious' scientist who is at his best delivering big research bucks, few take the book seriously though I'm sure poets can find any number of lame images and metaphors to use in their relentless quest to discredit their art. Of course, the larger question concerns the immutability of the physico/mathematical laws which are utterly universal and immortal one day and completely anthema the next. We just had a good example of this with current research out of Australia which indicates that Einstein's theory of special relativity is wrong because the speed of light apparently is not a constant. Rather than throw out the Second Law of Thermodynamics our demiurges have begun jettisoning brother Einstein in a series of papers and presentations sure to net more research money and possibly the Dynamite Prize. And most of us hadn't even come to grips with Newton's asterisks. CP P.S. Tipler's tripe lore and such play a significant epistemological role in my Tale of the Tribe, Millenary's Centos and Eschatology of Reason. The ring of hell devoted to such vulcanisms is a particle accelerator. CP (for further dissemination if you want) They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:44:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sherry Brennan Subject: Re: Self-Publish or Perish In-Reply-To: <00e601c246cf$722a13d0$1160f30c@S0027338986> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:53 AM 8/18/2002 -0400, Vernon Frazer wrote: >And working in the avant-garde in any medium is staging a guerilla effort. >You have to strike where you can find a place and then you have to leave >because there's no safe place for you or your work to stay for any length >of time. > >Vernon Frazer Yes, I think self-publishing is a tradition of its own, and a guerilla effort, as Vernon points out. Which is the point. For instance, perhaps we wouldn't have Reznikoff if he hadn't self published? Or so he seemed to think when he first decided to go that route. And I think both the self-publish and subpress collective activities developed out of a conversation about Reznikoff. Though subpress has turned out, for the most part, not to be composed of self-published books. And it was the idea behind both activities just to get more poetry out, in print. So Alan brings up important questions of distribution, exclusivity and audience. But self-publishing is not necessarily exclusive, and is one way to develop audience. In fact, most people I know who have done some self-publishing tend to give away their things pretty widely. So then they are not sold, in that case, and not then a part of the exclusivity of what has to have been or not have been bought. Though that does not necessarily exempt them from an economics of distribution, as the distribution for either kind of poetry publication is not very wide, anyway, obviously. So both models are necessary and possible, no? Sherry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 18:24:22 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: Sunday: AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM Comments: To: David Baratier In-Reply-To: <3D5F807E.F502B99@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, David Baratier wrote: "The downstairs was full so I immediately soaked the corn." - This is the best line I've read on this list for a long time. staying well, kevin H. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Self-Publish or Perish In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020818163138.00a9d710@email.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII With regard to all this, has anybody involved in self-publishing ever combined that with bookcrossing.com? The front page of that site explains it; it's a way to release books into the wild, as they put it, pass them from hand to hand, leave them in likely places for strangers to pick up... sort of the book equivalent of a message in a bottle. Ideally, the recipient of the book logs in and posts about it. It's a little twee, but it could be interesting to join and then add one or two books, in whatever form, by yourself to the mix. Gwyn McVay --- "Freedom of information is too expensive for YOU." --Sir Nose D'VoidofFunk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:52:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 40-second anime MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 40-second anime the body-colored spew churning and moving just to limit, EDGE-INVISIBLE, LIP-INVISIBLE, flowing with french-apron, naked-man, naked-woman, JUST FOR A MOMENT everything THROWN TURNED into SHIFTING OF DESIRES CHURN:the soiled ring was battered, color of clouds marble, pink lips nipples, a wonder-ring, so very lovely, lovely open flower, in midst THE BATTERED TUBE, battered tube turned opened, like flower-leaf, against bodies, hidden body-colored, BODY-COLORED SPEW:we both wore tiny french apron, it adorable, we were nude, played made, leaned over, came back, grabbed doorways, edges beds, cute, wonderful, spread our legs, arms, reached mountain-sky, mountain-sky - hot-house, hot-room, carried ourselves you, SOILED RING::BODY-CHURNING-SPEW Your edgy BODY-CHURNING-SPEW is my death-like FRENCH-APRON the body-colored spew churning and moving just to the limit, to the EDGE-INVISIBLE, to the LIP-INVISIBLE, the body-colored spew flowing with the french-apron, the naked-man, the naked-woman, churning and JUST FOR A MOMENT everything THROWN and TURNED into the SHIFTING OF DESIRES into the CHURN:the soiled ring was battered, the soiled ring was the color of clouds and marble, the soiled ring was the color of pink lips and nipples, the soiled ring was a wonder-ring, so very lovely, lovely open flower, in the midst of THE BATTERED TUBE, the battered tube turned and opened, the battered tube like a flower-leaf, the battered tube against the bodies, hidden against the bodies, body-colored, the soiled ring body-colored, the BODY-COLORED SPEW:we both wore the tiny french apron, it was so adorable, we both were nude, we played tiny french made, we leaned over, we came back, we grabbed doorways, we grabbed the edges of beds, we were so cute, we were wonderful, we spread our legs, we spread our arms, we reached to the mountain-sky, we were the mountain-sky - we were in the hot-house, we were in the hot-room, we carried ourselves to you, we carried ourselves to THE SOILED RING::BODY-CHURNING-SPEW Your edgy BODY-CHURNING-SPEW is in my death-like FRENCH-APRON === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:58:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leon Damas Aime Cesaire (Sorry, my e-mail won't produce the accents) Best, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 18:08:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Shizumi's Eyes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/18/02 11:41:04 AM, Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: << jessie glass writes: I Reply: This seems like the thing to do. So, certain channels, please get in touch with the list. Tell us where to send the checks. I've my pen in my hand. Best, JG >> Ditto. Best, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:05:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Abiko Quarterly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Dan Zimmerman and anyone else who placed work with A.Q. and have failed to hear back. Hi Dan--Just wanted to mention that I tried once again to get in touch = with Hamadasan of the A.Q.--and nothing. I sent all of the work to = Laurel Sicks a month or so before her break-down and she said she was = going to use it. Hamadasan is a bird of a different stripe than Laurel. = He's very interested in getting a return on his magazines, and no free = copies to anyone is his policy. If you write to him again about your = work I would suggest that you enclose $30.00.--That's the price of the = latest issue, plus postage. Hamadasan is an honest man, so you will no = doubt hear from him then, and you will probably be invited to continue = to contribute. Sorry about the uncertainties of all of this, but since Laurel left = Japan I have been as out of touch with the A.Q. as you are. Jesse Glass ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:16:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: African-American Poetries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Julie Patton <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:31:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: African-American Poetries In-Reply-To: from "Kathy Lou Schultz" at Aug 17, 2002 11:43:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathy Lou and all, Carl Martin should certainly be on the list - author of 2 amazing collections: _Go Your Stations, Girl_ and _Genii Over Salzburg_. Far from obvious b/c his poems rarely signify towards an anthologist's definition of African American Poetry and b/c he is deeply unaffiliated and living in Winston-Salem. But his poems are awesome and innovative - see issues 4 & 7 of COMBO (which suggest to me that he's got enough material for a damn good third book...) -m. According to Kathy Lou Schultz: > > Dear List Folk: > > I am compiling a list of 20th century African-American poets whose work is > in some way marked by formal innovation. Formal "innovation" may be defined > variously. In the 18th century, for example, Phillis Wheatley may have > "innovated" while working within the traditions of English neoclassicism. > > Here are some names to start. Please add your suggestions. > > Jean Toomer > Elouise Loftin > Julia Fields > Amiri Baraka > Nathaniel Mackey > Will Alexander > Erica Hunt > Harryette Mullen > Renee Gladman > Giovanni Singleton > Mark McMorris > > Thank you, > Kathy Lou > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Kathy Lou Schultz > http://www.english.upenn.edu/~klou > > Lipstick Eleven, The Esperanto Issue, Now Available > Order from Small Press Distribution at: http://www.spdbooks.org > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:41:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: African-American Poetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 5:58 PM Subject: Re: African-American Poetries > Leon Damas > Aime Cesaire don't really qualify as african-american...unless we're being liberal with the definition of the "americas"...in that case, add rené depestre & kamau brathwaite (well, since mark mcmorris was on the initial list, brathwaite isn't a stretch)... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:22:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: "Games, Po, Play, Art, and Arteroids 2.02" In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "Games, Po, Play, Art, and Arteroids 2.02" is an essay I've written about some of the issues I've bumped into during the making of Arteroids, a shoot-em-up literary computer game for the Web which I've been working on for about 16 months now. The essay and the game are at http://vispo.com/arteroids . The essay weighs in at about 600kb and requires IE4+, currently, plus Shockwave 8.5.1. The game itself, as opposed to the essay, can be viewed with a Mac or PC using Netscape or IE. Best to shut other programs down first concerning both the game and essay, if you would, please. ja http://vispo.com http://webartery.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:05:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Self-publish or perish MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/18/02 11:44:46 AM, npiombino@AAAHAWK.COM writes: >For me, the issue of self- or cooperative publishing >brings to mind another, related, issue, that is, the status of the poem >as >an object of discovery, as compared to say, a (collectible) object of >invention. I feel that if experimental poets utilized a model for our field >similar to (an Idealistic, and applicable version of) one of the models >used >in the sciences, that is the confirmable repeatability of experimental >outcomes, as opposed to the unrepeatable singularity of individual >inventions... Nick, What is troublesome to me in what you are saying is not essentially the connection between science and poetry, but the implicit idea of progress. I find the concept of progress in art inconceivable; not only between historical periods but also among poets of the same period or even, in my opinion, among poems of the same poet. In what way is a Coleridge poem inferior or superior to a Frank O'hara poem or a Shakespearean sonnet or a poem by Whitman or Pope, etc.? One may prefer one over the other; but this is a matter of the reader's interests and tastes and also the cultural, philosophical assumptions of the age in which the reader lives. Each of these poets creates "completion" in his or her own way. Can an O'hara moment "improved" upon, can a Whitman poem expanded upon? >then the obvious next step would be to move towards a much >more >rapid distribution of confirmable discoveries. The vexing issue is, are >poems composed mainly of information (signals) or are they objects that >contain mysterious substances that cannot be isolated? Then poems are mainly composed of "information?" That's what you seem to be saying or implying. After all "discovery" as something communicable is "information." Am I misunderstanding you? I don't think that's what poetry mainly does. In your previous post you referred to the "aura" of fragments. How do you reconcile these two ideas? >that such discoveries could be disseminated and >employed in future poetry. I think of such Dada ideas as cutting up a >newspaper, shaking around the words and then letting them fall to the table, >as the ground for some important contemporary and less recent work in the >field of poetry and the plastic arts, for example Unless the second artist re-imagines the cut-up process (and makes it his/her own), the "technique" itself functions as a cliche, the opposite of "progress." You also imply that a scientific approach to poetry will abolish the cult of personality or authority? Is that what happens in science? No heroes? No authorities? All in all, an interesting post. Murat You seem to say ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: war MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII war ___________ nikuko | oo o.oo o. o| oo| ooo .o o.ooo| o KIILLS KILLS o.o . america | o . | | oooo. o|ge marked f | oo o.ooo| | ooo .o o| | o . |er