========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:53:55 +0530 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: the first issue of Otoliths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline http://the-otolith.blogspot.com./ the first issue of Otoliths. It contains work from Dan Waber & Meghan Scott, Michelle Greenblatt, Daniel f. Bradley, kari edwards, Nico Vassilakis, Michael Farrell, Alex Gildzen, Eileen Tabios, Tom Beckett, Nicholas Downing, Francis Raven, Geof Huth, Andrew Lundwall, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, John M. Bennett, Bill Allegrezza, Sheila Murphy, Martin Edmond, David-Baptiste Chirot, Ernesto Priego, Laurie Duggan, Reed Altemus, Jordan Stempleman, Irving Weiss, Jeff Harrison, Bob Marcacci, Marko Niemi, Lars Palm, pr primeau, Michael Rothenberg, Jack Kimball, CAConrad, Dion Farquhar, Donna Kuhn, Richard Lopez, Michael P. Steven, harry k. stammer, Thomas Fink & Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, plus "mini-chapbooks" from Jean Vengua & from Ray Craig. -- transSubmutation http://transdada3.blogspot.com/ obedience Poetry Factory School. 2005. 86 pages, perfect bound, 6.5x9. ISBN: 1-60001-044-X $12 / $10 direct order Description: obedience, the fourth book by kari edwards, offers a rhythmic disruption of the relative real, a progressive troubling of the phenomenal world, from gross material to the infinitesimal. The book's intention is a transformative mantric dismantling of being. http://www.factoryschool.org/pubs/heretical/index.html http://www.spdbooks.org/SearchResults.asp?AuthorTitle=3Dedwards%2C+kari ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:52:40 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: roger day In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The article is about the loss of faith by one man, not about "balance" - note that they did talk to some other scholars who came away with other answers using, they say, the same methods, although I have my doubts about this sameness. I know this question will hit a stone wall - but why deny Bart Ehrman his story? Doubtless, if the story went the other way, "balance" would not be called for. My interpretation of Bart Ehrmans story is that he applied Reason to an artefact foundational to his beliefs. Once you let Reason in, it is hard to stop and he came away with not totally unexpected results. Treated forensically, the christian bible is a body of text layered, patched, mis-translated, mis-shapen, an historical document containing myths and distortions, with ideology striping it's core like a stick of blackpool rock. Treated with enough faith to paste over the cracks, it becomes something else. But then, mutatis mutandi, so does The Lord Of The Rings. But hey, I could go on all day like this and I'm not about to do that. Roger On 4/30/06, Ian VanHeusen wrote: > Wow, interesting tangeant. I think the biggest problem with the Washingto= n > Post article is that there is no attempt to show both sides. I mean it wo= uld > have taken literally one afternoon for the reporter to find say a Catholi= c > Scholar of the bible with a good reputation and who was familiar with thi= s > man's argument. For me personally, that would have been important. Not > really a huge problem because anyone familiar with Christianity knows tha= t > Fundmentalism employs a whole line of thinking that is not hard to break > apart. All I see is a Christian Fundmentalist who applied the logic of > Fundmentalism. Doesn't really affect me, but worth thinking about for oh, > say a half hour. Peace, > Ian > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 04:30:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: revised submissions call for where we create MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All, After consultations, we have reconfigured the wherewecreate project. The new and easy on you guidelines are listed below. The project needs content to get started so please send soon. Where We Create Project. http://newformsreview.com/wherewecreate/ The first project from the newly built newformsreview.com founded by Jason Nelson, a net art and digital Literature portal and forthcoming peer-reviewed journal. The Where We Create Project is designed to connect digital artists and writers (and analog creators as well) through a website featuring photos and descriptions of where artists/writers create. Our geographies and external landscapes are instrumental in altering and forming the creatures we create. What we need is the following sent to this address: wherewecreate@gmail.com 1. An image or two, 300 px by 300 px jpg or around there, of where you create. This can be your office, your backyard, some coffee shop, whatever you want to show the physical space(s) where you work. 2. Some text about that place and its meaning to you, your work, your life, or whatever you feel represents the world in which you create. We are looking for around five or six or seven sentences, but not much more. 3. Your name, any other brief biographical information, and where this places you are talking about are: for example: Emporia, Kansas, downtown office building, second floor in the back…. 4. and a few urls so people can go see the work you create in that place. NOTE: Please keep in mind the more personal space the better, and that this isn't intended to showcase your artistic skills, but rather share a small bit of your geography. Cheers, Jason Nelson --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 05:06:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: roger day In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wow, interesting tangeant. I think the biggest problem with the > Washington > Post article is that there is no attempt to show both sides. I > mean it would > have taken literally one afternoon for the reporter to find say a > Catholic > Scholar of the bible with a good reputation and who was familiar > with this > man's argument. For me personally, that would have been important. Not > really a huge problem because anyone familiar with Christianity > knows that > Fundmentalism employs a whole line of thinking that is not hard to break > apart. All I see is a Christian Fundmentalist who applied the logic of > Fundmentalism. Doesn't really affect me, but worth thinking about for oh, > say a half hour. Peace, > Ian One of the incalculably valuable things about literature is that it often challenges our judgement, shows us deep into the motivations of people and deep into their points of view. One of the results is sometimes that we are less quick to judge others. If the word of God is (and is of) love, justice, truth, beauty, and understanding, we come to see that it is not written by God Almighty in holy books, but by people, and that the divine, the ideal, and the quotidian are in mysterious but dynamic relation and do indeed require some faith, but not faith that ideals are easily found if only we hold to a literalist's naivety that God writes as people do. We ourselves write the word of God in our determination to discover and create justice, beauty and truth in our lives. Even if things like justice and straight lines and points with no length or width are imaginary, they are ideals that we need in our efforts to be fair and builders of what is possible, explorers of what is fair and what is possible. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 05:25:28 -0700 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , Wom Po , Lucifer Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS The next Democratic Debacle Bob Casey in Pennsylvania Saving the internet The Da Vinci Code is to great literature as Indiana Jones is to great cinema The future of online publication What people are actually reading and where they submit their poetry Quality vs. accessibility in online publications A survey of poets their reading and publishing habits online and in print The Poet Laureate of the Blogosphere Rethinking aura in front of the Enola Gay, the Space Shuttle and Sandra Day O’Connor Insider vs. outsider art Andi Olsen’s film Where the Smiling Ends at the American Visionary Art Museum Be Here to Love Me A film about Townes Van Zandt Ten years of poetry at the Washington Post 16 grand pianos, 4 drums, 3 xylophones one gong, assorted alarms and a piercing siren - George Antheil makes everyone jump at Dada in DC A selected poems for Louis Zukofsky The Library of America volume Publishers Weekly on poetry and the web Redell Olsen and Drew Milne The place of English http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:53:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Gallaher Subject: The Jackson Poetry Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Found this press release this morning. -JG =20 ---------- =20 A Major, New Award for Poets =20 Poets & Writers has established a new, major award for poets. The Jackson P= oetry Prize will honor an American poet of exceptional talent who has publi= shed at least one book but has not yet received national acclaim. After the= Lannan Foundation's Literary Fellowships, the Jackson Poetry Prize of $50,= 000 will be the largest award for an early to mid-career poet. =20 =20 Read the Press Release *( http://pw.pmailus.com/pmailweb/ct?d=3DBs06YAAuAAH= -----AACn7Q )* =20 A New, Major Prize for U.S. Poets =20 Poets & Writers Establishes the Jackson Poetry Prize Contact: Elliot Figman, Executive Director, Poets & Writers =20 April 24, 2006=96 Poets & Writers is marking National Poetry Month by estab= lishing a new, major award for poets. The Jackson Poetry Prize will honor a= n American poet of exceptional talent who has published at least one book o= f recognized literary merit but has not yet received major national acclaim= . After the Lannan Foundation's Literary Fellowships, the Jackson Poetry Pr= ize of $50,000 will be the largest award for an early to mid-career poet. T= he prize is designed to provide what all poets need=97time and the encourag= ement to write. =20 There is no application process for the Jackson Poetry Prize=97poets will b= e nominated by their peers who will remain anonymous; final selection will = be made by a panel of esteemed poets. The inaugural prize will be awarded i= n Spring 2007.=20 =20 "We look forward to calling the winning poet next April and giving them the= good news," said Elliot Figman, executive director of Poets & Writers. The prize has been made possible by a significant donation from the Liana F= oundation, a charitable organization founded by John and Susan Jackson. =20 Established in 1970, Poets & Writers is the nation=92s largest nonprofit or= ganization assisting creative writers. The organization publishes Poets & W= riters Magazine, produces Poets & Writers Online, offers publishing informa= tion and advice, provides fees to hundreds of writers each year who partici= pate in public literary events, and introduces emerging writers outside of = New York to the New York City literary community. =20 = ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 07:03:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brigitte Byrd Subject: Re: Atlanta Readings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are a few venues in Atlanta: Coconut Poetry holds a very nice reading series at Emory University, and the contact is poet Bruce Covey at bcovey@emory.edu The Atlanta Poets Group also hold readings at the Eyedrum gallery, and the contact is Mark Presjnar at mprejsn@law.emory.edu I started a reading series this year at Clayton State University, so you can also contact me and check our visiting writers for the 2005-2006 season at And, indeed, there is also the Poetry at Tech series, and the contact is Ginger Murchinson at ginger.murchison@lcc.gatech.edu Otherwise, you could also try to contact Emory for their "other" series and Georgia State U. . . . * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Brigitte Byrd Assistant Professor of English Clayton State University BrigitteByrd@clayton.edu 678-466-4556 (Voice) 678-466-4899 (Fax) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:29:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Notes on Marie Menken Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is one more Tribeca Film Festival show =AD-=20 on May 2 -=AD of *Notes on Marie Menken* -- Martina=20 Kudl=E1cek's documentary about the life and work of=20 one of the most remarkable independent,=20 Bolex-wielding filmmakers of American alternative=20 film.,Marie Menken (1909-1970). Edited by Henry=20 Hills; music by John Zorn. Some brief notes on=20 the film at http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 22:35:29 +0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derekrogerson Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: Instructor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Memphis, TN The English Department at the University of Memphis seeks non-tenure track instructor for one-year appointment beginning August 21. Duties include teaching four courses per semester of poetry writing and forms of poetry and freshman and sophomore English courses as needed. Applicants must provide evidence of how they meet the following criteria: - MFA degree in creative writing, emphasis in poetry - evidence of publication of poetry - evidence of excellence in the classroom - experience teaching freshman composition, sophomore literature, and poetry writing and forms - flexibility in performing departmental service and accepting courses and times as needed Send letter of application, vita, transcript, at least three current letters of reference, course syllabi, and other supporting materials, such as student evaluations & class observation reports to: Chair, Instructor Search Committee The Department of English The University of Memphis 467 Patterson Hall Memphis, TN 38152-3510 Review of applications will begin May 15 and may continue until the positions are filled. eo/aa. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:13:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: May at Small Press Traffic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit May events at Small Press Traffic May 12 Maxine Chernoff & Barbara Jane Reyes May 19 Philip Jenks & Jennifer Moxley May 26 Joanne Kyger For more details on these, please see http://www.sptraffic.org/html/events/spring06.html And, just added, May 21 Bay Poetics Launch (NB: held at 21 Grand in Oakland) For more details on this, please see http://newyipes.blogspot.com We hope to see you soon! Elizabeth Treadwell, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: email for Sharma & Levitsky MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi friends, I am trying to find current emails for Prageeta Sharma and Rachel Levitsky, if som kind souls might backchannel. All best, Elizabeth Elizabeth Treadwell, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 09:22:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: JOANNE KYGER LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD Comments: cc: WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friday, May 26, 2006 at 7:30 p.m. Joanne Kyger reading & celebration Every year the board of directors of Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center votes a Lifetime Achievement Award to a living writer of distinction. Past honorees have included Barbara Guest, Jackson Mac Low, and Carl Rakosi. The latest recipient of SPT's Lifetime Achievement Award is Joanne Kyger. Joanne Kyger made an auspicious debut as the golden girl of the Spicer-Duncan circle of the late 1950s in San Francisco. Within a month of her arrival everyone wanted a piece of Kyger, and she became associated with many of the fluid, mercurial poetry scenes around the "New American Poetry." Like her best writing, she was everywhere at once, deep inside the Beat movement, all over Japan and India, up and down the San Francisco Renaissance, steeped in Charles Olson's polis-based soul curriculum, our ambassador to the New York scenes of Ted Berrigan and Anne Waldman, the mainstay of Bolinas, and a seer in the Buddhist poetics of the Jack Kerouac School at Naropa University in Boulder. Those are only the locations; deeper underneath, the substance of her many lives created, over forty-five years, a new poetic freedom. Based on frank and sensual observation, an innovating line, a sometimes acerbic wit, and a devotion to the 'golden root' of compassion, Kyger's poetry continues to win her the admiration of numerous generations. Joining us for Kyger's reading will be her friend, the poet Michael Rothenberg, who edited As Ever, Kyger's selected poems, for Penguin Books in 2002. Rothenberg, author of Unhurried Vision, has recently relocated to the Russian River area and will be on hand to introduce her. We will also show Kyger's 1968 video, "Descartes." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 10:16:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: woops location for Kyger Celebration event! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JOANNE KYGER Lifetime Achievement Celebration location: Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Friday, May 26, 2006 at 7:30 p.m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:16:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sandra Subject: Clay Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline maydaymayday: Ben Doyle, Sandra Miller, & Amanda Nadelberg don't work: they read in the Clay Poetry series @ Publico in Cincinnati tonite, Monday May 1 at 8pm... 1308 Clay Street Cincinnati 513.784.0832 paul@publicoart.com http://publicoart.com/ -- http://www.journal1913.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: STANZAS #44 - Dennis Cooley Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new from above/ground press two poems by Dennis Cooley STANZAS #44 (May 2006) Born in Estevan, Saskatchewan, prairie poet Dennis Cooley currently lives in Winnipeg, Manitoba, and teaches at the University of Manitoba. He is the author of a number of poetry collections, including Leaving (1980), Fielding (1983), Bloody Jack (1984; 2002), This Only Home (1992), a selected poems, Sunfall (1986), Irene (2000), Seeing Red (2003) and Country Music (2004), as well as a collection of essays, The Vernacular Muse (1987), a monograph on the late prairie poet Eli Mandel, Inscriptions (1992), and a journal, Passwords (1996). Highly passionate and productive, he is currently working on a number of projects, including five journals (three Portugese, one Polish and a Ukrainian/Russian journal), a collection of muse poems and a collection of essays, and the poetry collection love in a dry land (playing off Sinclair Ross' As For Me and My House). An essential part of prairie writing and prairie writers, Cooley was a founding member of Winnipeg's Turnstone Press in 1975, and has done extensive work of his own on prairie writing, including a special issue of ECW (later reprinted as a separate anthology by ECW Press) and an anthology of prairie poetry, drift (1981). ======== free if you find it, $4 sample (add $2 international) & $20 for 5 issues (outside canada, $20 US)(payable to rob mclennan), c/o 858 somerset st w, ottawa ontario canada k1r 6r7 STANZAS magazine, for long poems/sequences, published at random in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. previous issues include work by Gil McElroy, Aaron Peck, derek beaulieu, carla milo, Gerry Gilbert, George Bowering, Sheila E. Murphy & Douglas Barbour, Lisa Samuels, Ian Whistle, Gerry Gilbert, Rachel Zolf, J.L. Jacobs, nathalie stephens, Meredith Quartermain, Stan Rogal, etc. 1000 copies distributed free around various places. exchanges welcome. submissions encouraged, with s.a.s.e. & good patience (i take forever) of up to 28 pages. complete bibliography & backlist availability now on-line at www.track0.com/rob_mclennan various above/ground press publications can be found at Mother Tongue Books (Ottawa), Collected Works (Ottawa), Annex Books (Toronto), etc next issue: Margaret Christakos (Toronto ON) ======= -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...11th coll'n - name , an errant (Stride, UK) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:17:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 5-01-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE BIG READ KICK OFF THE BIG READ WITH MAYOR BYRON BROWN=21 Tuesday, May 2, 10 a.m. on the steps of City Hall LABOR READS: A Community Discussion of Fahrenheit 451 Wednesday, May 3, 5 p.m. Market Arcade Film and Arts Center Lobby FRANCOIS TRUFFAUT'S 1966 FILM, =22FAHRENHEIT 451=22 Introduced by Bruce Jackson and Diane Christian Wednesday, May 3, 7 p.m. Market Arcade Film and Arts Center =00 For a complete schedule, go to our website and click on the =22Big Read=22 = logo. JUST ANNOUNCED=21=21=21=21=21 A Poet in Buffalo: A Community Celebration of the Life & Work of Robert Creeley(1926=E2=80=932005) on the Occasion of his 80th Birthday Saturday & Sunday May 20 & 21, 2006 Saturday: 7 pm. to 12 Midnight at The Church, 341 Delaware Ave: Readings by: AMIRI BARAKA JOANNE KYGER TOM RAWORTH plus: Buffalo Tributes, film screenings, live music, audio & visual presentations= , displays of archival treasures & Creeley=E2=80=99s collaborations with visual artists, = DJs, and food & drink, culminating with an 80th birthday toast at the stroke of midnight. Sunday, 2:00 P.M. at the Albright-Knox Art Gallery Auditorium: Creeley films presented in person by Bruce Jackson & Diane Christian, and the world premiere of a Creeley composition by David Felder. Sponsored by: Albright-Knox Art Gallery, Hallwalls, Just Buffalo Literary = Center, Righteous Babe Records, Samuel P. Capen Chair of American Culture, Talking= Leaves Books, & UB Poetry Collection. Media sponsors BUFFALO SPREE & ARTVOICE. For detailed information and Creeley links go to www.hallwalls.or= g. WORKSHOPS THE WORKING WRITER SEMINAR In our most popular series of workshops writers improve their writing for p= ublication, learn the ins and outs of getting publiished, and find ways to earn a livin= g as writers. Individual workshops: =2450, =2440 members Materials are included at no additional cost. Power of the Pen Saturday, May 13, 12 - 4 p.m. This course will unleash and expand your natural creative abilities, while = you enjoy the inspirational, motivational approach to writing. Writing on a regular b= asis provides widespread benefits, improved confidence and a more positive attitude. Wr= iters will be inspired to put =22passion into print,=22 and become a successfully publ= ished author. In a step-by-step explanation of how to take an idea you're passionate about, = you'll learn to make an article or book out of it, get it published and deliver it into = the hands and hearts of readers. Kathryn Radeff's work has appeared in local, regional and national magazine= s and newspapers, including Woman's World, Instructor, American Fitness, Personal Journaling, They Daytona Beach News Journal, and The Buffalo News and Buffa= lo Spree. For the past 25 years, she has worked extensively as an educator emp= hasizing a creative approach to getting published. SPOKEN ARTS RADIO, with host Sarah Campbell A joint production of Just Buffalo Literary Center and WBFO 88.7 FM Airs Sundays during Weekend Edition at 8:35 a.m. and Mondays during Morning Edition at 6:35 A.M. & 8:35 a.m. Upcoming Features: Ray Bradbury biographer Sam Weller, May 14 & 15 All shows are now available for download on our website, including features= on John Ashbery, Paul Auster, Lyn Hejinian and more http://www.justbuffalo.org/events/sar.shtml JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery. Group meets 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call fo= r details. FROM THE NEW YORK STATE COUNCIL ON THE ARTS Dear Literary Colleagues, Please join us next month in Rochester on May 12th & 13th, 2006 for the sec= ond annual NYSCA-sponsored Facing Pages convening of New York State literary presenters and publishers followed by The Future of the Book celebration at= Writers and Books on May 13 & 14th, 2006=21 These events coincide with the annual = Rochester Lilac Festival. Attached you will find the updated convening agenda and registration form. = Please email your completed form, if at all possible, by April 30th to cleahy=40ny= sca.org to reserve your space. If you need a registration extension, please email by = May 8th. Partial travel assistance/reimbursement will be available on a first-come, = first-served basis through LitTAP (dott=40littap.org) for NYS literary presenters and th= rough CLMP (jschwartz=40clmp.org) for NYS literary publishers. Jet Blue makes frequent flights to Rochester. Be sure to reserve your own= accommodations, for which we offer the following information: Strathallan Hotel ATTENTION Cheryl: reservations=40strathallan.com or 1-800-678-7284 =24119 per night; walking distance to Writers & Books indicate that you're = with the Future of the Book Conference)Airport shuttle from the hotel; to arrange, email fl= ight information to joyce=40strathallan.com. Crowne Plaza: =2499 per night 585-546-3450 Clarion Riverside Hotel: =2489 per night 585-545-6400 East Avenue Inn: =2479 per night 585-325-5010 (Rooms only; no restaurant or= other amenities) Again, please note that travel assistance is available through LitTAP for p= resenters and CLMP for publishers (see email addresses above for inquiries). You mus= t submit receipts for reimbursement. Please let us know if you have questions at ksarkis=40optonline.net or dott= =40littap.org. We hope to see you there. Looking forward to seeing you in Rochester for lilacs and literature=21 All best wishes, Kathleen Masterson Kathleen Masterson/Director, NYSCA Literature Program/kmasterson=40nysca.or= g Christine Leahy/Team Associate, NYSCA/cleahy=40nysca.org Debora Ott/Director, LitTap/dott=40littap.org Katherine Sarkis/LitTap/ksarkist UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: fine then MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If by "I like hanging out with you" you mean "you're kind of an asshole," well fine then: so be it. I may be, but listen, I like hanging out with you too. http://blog.myspace.com/orthodontist ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 12:05:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Sunday May 7th: Pagan Poetry: Dodie Bellamy, More Cowgirls: Britta Austin, Dustin Heron, Zulema Summerfield, Geraldine Kim!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sunday May 7th: Pagan Poetry: Dodie Bellamy, More Cowgirls: Britta Austin, Dustin Heron, Zulema Summerfield, and.... Geraldine Kim!!! Open Mic! Starts at 7pm. Get their early to read! @ Club Waziema 543 Divisadero at Fell San Francisco, CA, America Please come and enjoy this epic evening with your fellow literary punks, hooligans and scholars. Brought to you by the Goetry Corporation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 12:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Book Award In-Reply-To: <000301c66d4e$50de7230$210110ac@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 April, = the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith Quartermain for = VANCOUVER WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers of Edmonton.=20 Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but what = the heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to know. Previous winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment hisself. = I've just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, published last week by Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even for a baseball illiterate = like me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even for all those peculiar USAmericans dwelling beneath the 49th. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver BC Canada V6A 1Y7 604 255 8274 (voice) 604 255 8204 fax quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 15:27:21 -0400 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: Book Award Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT very congrats! a wicked awesome book & worth getting. but was the dinner any good? rob > >At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 April, = >the >Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith Quartermain for = >VANCOUVER >WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers of Edmonton.=20 > >Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but what = >the >heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to know. Previous >winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment hisself. = >I've >just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, published last week by >Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even for a baseball illiterate = >like >me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even for all those peculiar USAmericans >dwelling beneath the 49th. > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Peter Quartermain >846 Keefer Street >Vancouver >BC Canada V6A 1Y7 >604 255 8274 (voice) >604 255 8204 fax >quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...11th coll'n - name , an errant (Stride, UK) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 16:11:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Book Award In-Reply-To: <000501c66d55$0bfe49e0$a53a5786@Diogenes> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thank you for saying so, Peter, but I have a correction: In all the years of the BC Book Awards in all the categories of book I have never won a BC Book Award. On 1-May-06, at 12:25 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 April, > the > Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith Quartermain for > VANCOUVER > WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers of Edmonton. > > Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but what > the > heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to know. > Previous > winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment > hisself. I've > just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, published last week by > Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even for a baseball illiterate > like > me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even for all those peculiar USAmericans > dwelling beneath the 49th. > > ========= > Peter Quartermain > 846 Keefer Street > Vancouver > BC Canada V6A 1Y7 > 604 255 8274 (voice) > 604 255 8204 fax > quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca > ========= > > G.H.B. My headache has a headache. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 16:33:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: May Day In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I hope many here got outside today. Here in San Francisco I wandered into a demonstration on Market Street of 100,000 or so mainly Latinos - though here were Chinese, Filipino's and other 'delegations' - all in support of the immigrant rights. Furthermore it was undoubtedly the largest demonstration of working class people that I have ever witnessed. The interesting thing to me is that these massive demonstrations across the country were not independently initiated by immigrant group, but they were provoked by pending legislation intended to criminalize and deport large segments of the immigrant populations. The irony of this witlessly, bigoted Republican House majority is that they have provoked a moment of great transformation in - particularly - the Latino (Hispanic) communities of this country. Anybody walking in these marches today - with the sheer size and determination of the marchers (many obviously overcoming barriers of fear and intimidation) - could not help but experience the sensation that a large community amongst us has just begun to go through one huge transfiguration. Quite amazing. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Thank you for saying so, Peter, > but I have a correction: > In all the years of the BC Book Awards > in all the categories of book > I have never won a BC Book Award. > > > > On 1-May-06, at 12:25 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > >> At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 April, >> the >> Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith Quartermain for >> VANCOUVER >> WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers of Edmonton. >> >> Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but what >> the >> heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to know. >> Previous >> winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment >> hisself. I've >> just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, published last week by >> Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even for a baseball illiterate >> like >> me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even for all those peculiar USAmericans >> dwelling beneath the 49th. >> >> ========= >> Peter Quartermain >> 846 Keefer Street >> Vancouver >> BC Canada V6A 1Y7 >> 604 255 8274 (voice) >> 604 255 8204 fax >> quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca >> ========= >> >> > G.H.B. > > My headache has a headache. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reb Livingston Subject: Call for 2007 Bedside Guide Submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The editors of No Tell Motel (http://www.notellmotel.org) are considering unpublished poems for the 2007 edition of THE BEDSIDE GUIDE TO NO TELL MOTEL (http://www.notellmotel.org/bedside). This collection will include some of the most seductive poems already appearing in No Tell Motel as well as new ones from poets who have not yet appeared in the magazine. WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR Sex appeal, playfulness and discretion in the broadest sense. Please refrain from submitting "sex act" poems. For an idea of our editorial tastes, visit No Tell Motel and read the poems we've already published or better yet, peruse a copy of the current BEDSIDE GUIDE. GUIDELINES Send up to 3 poems to bedsidesubmit (at) notellmotel (dot) org in the body of the e-mail. DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS. Unpublished poems only Include brief bio Deadline: June 30, 2006 Payment: One copy of book Editors: Reb Livingston & Molly Arden Publisher: No Tell Books ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 22:32:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caroline Crumpacker Subject: House to Rent: Cheap In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, If anyone wants a vacation from NYC without spending much money, think of this: We are looking to rent our sunny, airy house in the village of Rhinebeck New York (1 1/2 hours North of NYC) from May 12 to June 4 (give or take). The house has a living room, dining room, kitchen, half-bathroom and two offices (one with a bed/couch) on the first floor and two bedrooms and a large full bath with a clawfoot tub upstairs. There is a large rocking chair front porch, several small gardens with flowers and a big, private back yard. The house includes AC upstairs, a TV with DVD player/ VCR/cable, stereo/CD player, high speed internet and lots of books and CDs. Although our street is quiet and pastoral, we are also a two-minute walk to Rhinebeck Center, which has great restaurants, a few bars, a bookstore, and many amenities (including a yoga studio and healthfood store). The Rhinecliff train station (Amtrak's Hudson line) is a five minute drive away. We have a 2 1/2 year old and so the house has kiddie stuff inside and out...this can be ignored/put away or, if you've got kids yourself, used all day long... We are charging very cheap (and negotiable) rent in exchange for a renter who will water our plants and take care of our cat. The cat is old and sleepy and requires only food in her bowl, a clean litter box (which is in a mudroom) and some sweetness and love. She sleeps 90% of the day... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 19:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michelle detorie Subject: ~*~W_O_M_B~*~: Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline wombpoetry.blogspot.com please feel free to fwd and repost WOMB, an online journal of poetry by women, seeks submissions for it's premier issue, set to launch on January 1, 2007. ~*~W_O_M_B~*~is intended to showcase the innovative and intriguing and electrifying work of poets who self-identify as women. We also hope to provide links to resources that are of particular interest to women poets, and to build a comprehensive blogroll of women poets who blog. We believe this will be a vital contribution to the exciting world of online poetry journals and a valuable community-building tool for poets who blog. Please check out our extensive list of resources and links at wombpoetry.blogspot.com. If you'd like to suggest a link, please e-mail femme feral at gmail dot com= . SUBMISSION GUIDELINES: *Please send 3-6 poems as inline text (in the body of an e-mail) or as .doc or .rtf attachment. *We also welcome submissions of audio, visual, tactile, and collage poetry. To submit poetry of this nature, please attach an mp3 sound file or jpeg image of your work. If the work is hosted online, you can also just send us a link. If you think the file is too large to send via e-mail, please contact us to obtain a snail mail address. *If you are interested in submitting hypertext or video poetry or poetry that requires a flash player, please send a file that is viewable using firefox, quicktime, or real player. Again, if you think your file is too large to send via e-mail, please contact us to obtain a snail mail address. *Collaborations and translations are also welcome. *If you are interested in submitting something that does not fit into any o= f the above descriptions, that's fine. Just help us out by providing us with = a brief description of the piece. *Please query if you are interested in doing a book review. * Send all submissions to wombpoetry at gmail dot com NUTS AND BOLTS: * We are open for submissions from April 1, 2006 to November 1, 2006. Issue 1 will launch on January 1, 2007. *Please put your name and date in the subject line of your e-mail. Please also include a cover letter with a brief bio so that we can get to know you a little bit. *Simultaneous submissions are allowed, just let as know asap if a piece has been accepted elsewhere. *Please note that we do not consider previously published work (however we are willing to consider work that has been posted to a personal blog; if this is the case, please make a note in your cover letter). *Please allow 6-8 weeks for a response. If you haven't heard from us in eight weeks, feel free to query. To vist our F.A.Q., go here: http://wombpoetry.blogspot.com/2006/04/new-faqs_30.html Thanks for reading! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:21:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: New On PFS Post & Stoning the Devil Comments: To: a.waldman@mindspring.com, cipollinaaaaa@yahoo.com, samwallack@hotmail.com, perelman@english.upenn.edu, lse664@aol.com, marywgraham@yahoo.com, mountaingirl523@hotmail.com, bfsmith@syr.edu, winterbriana@yahoo.com, bdfreedman@yahoo.com, satori7@juno.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New on PFS Post (www.artrecess.blogspot.com): six smashing poems from UK "wunderkind" James Garry. "Waxing Hot" with Steve Halle. New on Stoning the Devil (www.adamfieled.blogspot.com): Aleister Crowley, Yeats, Poe, Syd Barrett, Jasper Johns, Robert Rauschenberg, Jarvis Cocker, "Literary Life", "Synthesis-as-Progress", "seriality" & lots more. New Adam Fieled poem up at Nth Position (www.nthposition.com): "Day Song". --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:46:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Penton Subject: A Celebration of Special-Ness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, May Day Mischief-Makers! There's a new update at www.UnlikelyStories.org, featuring: a conversation on low-budget film with Matt Hoos, Mark A. Lewis, and Gabriel Ricard Bob Malone attempts a gig at Mardi Gras in 1997 Andrew P. discusses the futility of self-promotion Sam Vaknin: Why the Beatles made more money than Einstein new fiction by Kirpal Gordon, Joel Van Noord, Paul Kavanagh, Abhijit Dasgupta and P. H. Madore new poetry by Halvard Johnson, Spiel, Zoë Gabriel, Rochelle Ratner, jai truesdale, Maurice Oliver,Pete Lee, A. Michael Sears and Stephanie Sesic and A Sardine on Vacation, Episode 37 We now return you to your regular schedule of displacing sustainable farming communities, -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 07:29:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 30 Apr 2006 to 1 May 2006 (#2006-122) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Roger- When one takes away faith, everything you say pretty much comes into play. The difference between Fundamentalist Faith (and for that matter Protestant Faith) is that for them the only thing of importance is Sola Scriptura. Everything else is not to be trusted. For Catholics and all of the Eastern Churchs (Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.) it is a matter of tradition and scripture. The huge difference would take a book to adequately cover, and for the most part this group of churches defines itself by the ideal of succession. For these groups, the Bible was written by humans and bears the mark of those people. The bible is, however, the word of God given through men. There is a whole theology of how God almost always works indirectly through people, not directly. In addition, I had read some of what Bart has mentioned in the first Catholic study of the New Testament that I was asked to read by a Catholic monk and I am sure Christian scholars come across these problems everyday without losing faith. I guess the thing I notice most is that Bart has very little trust in the early Christian church. I guess in a sense Bart does have some right to his fifteen minutes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 07:58:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: May Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen, What effect do you think the carrying of foreign flags in the demonstrations will have? Murat In a message dated 5/1/06 7:33:06 PM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > I hope many here got outside today. Here in San Francisco I wandered into a > demonstration on Market Street of 100,000 or so mainly Latinos - though here > were Chinese, Filipino's and other 'delegations' - all in support of the > immigrant rights. Furthermore it was undoubtedly the largest demonstration > of working class people that I have ever witnessed. > > The interesting thing to me is that these massive demonstrations across the > country were not independently initiated by immigrant group, but they were > provoked by pending legislation intended to criminalize and deport large > segments of the immigrant populations. > > The irony of this witlessly, bigoted Republican House majority is that they > have provoked a moment of great transformation in - particularly - the > Latino (Hispanic) communities of this country. Anybody walking in these > marches today - with the sheer size and determination of the marchers (many > obviously overcoming barriers of fear and intimidation) - could not help but > experience the sensation that a large community amongst us has just begun to > go through one huge transfiguration. Quite amazing. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > Thank you for saying so, Peter, > > but I have a correction: > > In all the years of the BC Book Awards > > in all the categories of book > > I have never won a BC Book Award. > > > > > > > > On 1-May-06, at 12:25 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > > > >> At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 April, > >> the > >> Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith Quartermain for > >> VANCOUVER > >> WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers of Edmonton. > >> > >> Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but what > >> the > >> heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to know. > >> Previous > >> winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment > >> hisself. I've > >> just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, published last week by > >> Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even for a baseball illiterate > >> like > >> me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even for all those peculiar USAmericans > >> dwelling beneath the 49th. > >> > >> ========= > >> Peter Quartermain > >> 846 Keefer Street > >> Vancouver > >> BC Canada V6A 1Y7 > >> 604 255 8274 (voice) > >> 604 255 8204 fax > >> quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca > >> ========= > >> > >> > > G.H.B. > > > > My headache has a headache. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:28:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: May Day In-Reply-To: <2d4.749cf77.3188a353@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline No more effect than carrying Irish flags has on St. Patty's Day. Phil Primeau Kent County SDS Rhode Island ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: May Day In-Reply-To: <2d4.749cf77.3188a353@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Chicago we had over 400,000 marchers and it was very mixed about 60% latino but also Polish, Irish and South Asian. It was a peaceful and great protest. I think that in Cities with immigrant traditions things will be ok... In the Chicago area 80% of the people have at least one grandparent who immigrated to America. But the fact is in NASCAR America we are going to see a backlash. I watched Fox News last night when I got home and it was like watching another world our protests here were very positive, even Francis Cardinal George participated along with many other Religious leaders But I think that there is going to be a backlash which Fox news is fomenting. In 1926 when the first US immigration law was passed (All Immigrants before 1926 had to do was arrive and they were legal) the US Government set quotas to reduce the number of Non White immigrants. In 1926 Whites were defined as Anglo Saxons, Scandinavians and Germans. Italian, Jews, Poles, Turks, Arabs, and other Slavs were quotaed as Non Whites and this law existed until 1965. We are heading toward a situation like this again I fear because people are scared and now they have media to promote their fears. Just watch the O'Reilly Factor. The best thing about yesterday was that we marched through Haymarket Square, the place where MAY DAY was born. When the Foxnewsers say May Day is a communist holiday they should know that it was born because of the Haymarket Square Riots in Chicago. Ray -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Murat Nemet-Nejat Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:58 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: May Day Stephen, What effect do you think the carrying of foreign flags in the demonstrations will have? Murat In a message dated 5/1/06 7:33:06 PM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > I hope many here got outside today. Here in San Francisco I wandered > into a demonstration on Market Street of 100,000 or so mainly Latinos > - though here were Chinese, Filipino's and other 'delegations' - all > in support of the immigrant rights. Furthermore it was undoubtedly the > largest demonstration of working class people that I have ever witnessed. > > The interesting thing to me is that these massive demonstrations > across the country were not independently initiated by immigrant > group, but they were provoked by pending legislation intended to > criminalize and deport large segments of the immigrant populations. > > The irony of this witlessly, bigoted Republican House majority is that > they have provoked a moment of great transformation in - particularly > - the Latino (Hispanic) communities of this country. Anybody walking > in these marches today - with the sheer size and determination of the > marchers (many obviously overcoming barriers of fear and intimidation) > - could not help but experience the sensation that a large community > amongst us has just begun to go through one huge transfiguration. Quite amazing. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > Thank you for saying so, Peter, > > but I have a correction: > > In all the years of the BC Book Awards in all the categories of book > > I have never won a BC Book Award. > > > > > > > > On 1-May-06, at 12:25 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > > > >> At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 > >> April, the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith > >> Quartermain for VANCOUVER WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers > >> of Edmonton. > >> > >> Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but > >> what the heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to > >> know. > >> Previous > >> winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment > >> hisself. I've just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, > >> published last week by Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even > >> for a baseball illiterate like me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even > >> for all those peculiar USAmericans dwelling beneath the 49th. > >> > >> ========= > >> Peter Quartermain > >> 846 Keefer Street > >> Vancouver > >> BC Canada V6A 1Y7 > >> 604 255 8274 (voice) > >> 604 255 8204 fax > >> quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca > >> ========= > >> > >> > > G.H.B. > > > > My headache has a headache. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Halle Subject: K.R. Copeland @ Seven Corners Comments: To: "alexmfrankel@earthlink.net" , Anne Waldman , Bhisham Bherwani , Bob Archambeau , Chad Carroll , Cheryl Keeler , DAVID PAVELICH , "Deniord, Chard" , "f.lord@snhu.edu" , Jacqueline Gens , James DeFrain , "julesgibbs@yahoo.com" , Leslie Sysko , Malia Hwang-carlos , Marie Ursuy , Rebecca Hilliker , Ross Gay , Bill Garvey , "Bowen, Kristy" , brandihoman@hotmail.com, Chris Glomski , Chris Goodrich , Christian DuFour , Craig Halle , Daniel Godston , Dan Pedersen , Garin Cycholl , grant-jenkins@utulsa.edu, Heather Halle , Jay Rubin , JOHN TIPTON , Julianna McCarthy , Kristin Prevallet , kerri@conundrumpoetry.com, "Lea C. Deschenes" , Margaret Doane , MartinD , Michael OLeary , Monica Halle , Notron Notsilliman , Nikki Hildreth , "Odelius, Kristy Lee" , pba1@surewest.net, pen@splab.org, Peter Sommers , Randolph Healy , Simone Muench , Susie Maraffino , "william.allegrezza@sbcglobal.net" , Rick Wishcamper , timothy daisy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Please take a moment to check out poems by *K.R. Copeland* ("Guilt Induced Riff with Eyeballs and Fish," "The Law of Very Large Numbers," "Evolution o= f the Shadow Frog," " The Scope of a Couple Dopey Humans *or* Equestrienne Retrospective," and "You Used to be a Beekeeper") on *Seven Corners* ( www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com) this week. Perhaps leave a comment as well... Best, Steve Halle Editor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: PO25centEM closed Comments: To: lucipo listserv Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, everyone, Thanks, first off, to everyone who contributed to the second volume of the = series. We have 49 contributors!=20 I still need bios from everyone, something like a paragraph, a few sentence= s, that will make up the 50th book. Can everyone below please send me a bio= as soon as possible? Thanks! 32 Annie Finch 33 John Sweet 34 Aaron Belz 35 Jane Adam 36 JD Nelson 37 Matthew Henrikson 38 Joseph Noble 39 Bob Marcacci 40 Avery Burns 41 Ric Royer 42 Steve Tills 43 John Leon 44 PR Primeau 45 Francis Raven 46 Mark Young 47 Michael Slosek 48 Jukka-Pekka Kervinen 49 Carrie Hunter 50 Steve Dalachinsky 51 Lori Emerson 52 Nico Vassilakis 53 Crag Hill 54 Rachel Daley 55 Jared Hayes 56 Ron Henry 57 John M. Bennett 58 Sarah Ann Cox 59 Logan Ryan Smith 60 kari edwards 61 Lars Palm 62 Jean Hartig 63 Kristine Leja 64 Jen Bartlett 65 Adam Fieled 66 Mirela Roznoveanu 67 Nicky Melville 68 John Hyland 69 Anne Heise 70 John Sakkis 71 Kyle Connor 72 Michael Koshkin 73 Yuko Otomo 74 Travis Macdonald 75 Joseph Cooper 76 Donald Illich 77 Kurt Sass 78 Grace Vajda 79 Brian Howe 80 Alex Gildzen 81 Jennifer Firestone Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 08:14:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: May Day In-Reply-To: <2d4.749cf77.3188a353@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The majority of flags I saw in San Francisco were those of the USA. The fact of which, one may suspect, may be just as provocative to the racial purists and anti-immigrant folks on 'the other side.' Since "foreign" anything is often assumed to be "lesser" or "inferior", I am wondering if instead of saying, "foreign flags", it would be much more beneficial and accurate to say, "global flags." Last night looking at CNN's Lou Dobbs, I found myself being really offended every time he said, "illegal alien", (instead of, say, "undocumented worker"). His manner of pronunciation - the tone of which is implicitly disparaging - reminds me of the way racist Southern Senators (during the sixties' fights over ending legalized segregation) would pronounce, "Negros" in a way as close as they could to the sound of "nigger.' There were many handwritten signs yesterday on the SF march - carried by both adults and children - that said, "I am a Human Being. I am Not an Alien." The use of the word "alien" is clearly heard by 'the subject' as dehumanizing and repugnant. In my opinion, Dobb's behavior clearly is repugnant and should be publicly damned as racist and intended as provocative hate speech. Re Fox and 'backlash'. We clearly had a version of a slave uprising yesterday. Of course, Fox (Murdoch & Co.) are freaked out and were quick to rush out the idea there will be a 'backlash'. What are they going to do? Put together box cars for 11 million folks to go back south on? Encourage home owners in gated communities to first abuse then fire their domestic staffs and the construction crews who are installing granite tops in their kitchens? Go into the Cities and take shots at the day laborers who are hired by the contractors that provide the cheap labor from which these owners profit. Whether on Iraq or whatever, Fox perpetuates a power charade that appears - poll by poll - to be finally collapsing. Maybe by Friday - the day Karl Rove will apparently be finally indicted - they will switch gears and wrestle on how to put a positive weekend spin on the fall of one of their own. Fortunately the NBA play-offs are getting hot and much better to my eye. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Current home to a work in progress Called "Tenderly" (a series). > Stephen, > > What effect do you think the carrying of foreign flags in the demonstrations > will have? > > Murat > > > In a message dated 5/1/06 7:33:06 PM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > > >> I hope many here got outside today. Here in San Francisco I wandered into a >> demonstration on Market Street of 100,000 or so mainly Latinos - though here >> were Chinese, Filipino's and other 'delegations' - all in support of the >> immigrant rights. Furthermore it was undoubtedly the largest demonstration >> of working class people that I have ever witnessed. >> >> The interesting thing to me is that these massive demonstrations across the >> country were not independently initiated by immigrant group, but they were >> provoked by pending legislation intended to criminalize and deport large >> segments of the immigrant populations. >> >> The irony of this witlessly, bigoted Republican House majority is that they >> have provoked a moment of great transformation in - particularly - the >> Latino (Hispanic) communities of this country. Anybody walking in these >> marches today - with the sheer size and determination of the marchers (many >> obviously overcoming barriers of fear and intimidation) - could not help but >> experience the sensation that a large community amongst us has just begun to >> go through one huge transfiguration. Quite amazing. >> >> Stephen Vincent >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:52:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paolo javier Subject: Re: May Day In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 5/2/06, Haas Bianchi wrote: > > > "In 1926 when the first US immigration law was passed (All Immigrants > before > 1926 had to do was arrive and they were legal) the US Government set > quotas > to reduce the number of Non White immigrants. In 1926 Whites were defined > as > Anglo Saxons, Scandinavians and Germans. Italian, Jews, Poles, Turks, > Arabs, > and other Slavs were quotaed as Non Whites and this law existed until > 1965. > We are heading toward a situation like this again I fear because people > are > scared and now they have media to promote their fears. Just watch the > O'Reilly Factor." actually, the passage of anti-Asian exclusion laws has long been a favorite pastime of American legislators, beginning in the 1850s against the Chinese and culminating in 1924, when Congress prohibited new immigration by all peoples of Asian descent, excluding Filipinos. (A new act ten years later would strip Filipinos of their national status, and include them in the ban.) of course, we should credit the writing of the 1790 law granting citizenship in this country to free white persons alone for setting the tone, and not until the mid-60s, as you offer, do we see legislators eliminate the national origins quota entirely. Asians presently make up a third of the illegal immigrant population in the U.S., a profound number that sadly hasn't been reflected much, if at all, in the media's coverage of the current immigration bill and debate. - Paolo -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Murat Nemet-Nejat Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:58 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: May Day Stephen, What effect do you think the carrying of foreign flags in the demonstration= s will have? Murat In a message dated 5/1/06 7:33:06 PM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > I hope many here got outside today. Here in San Francisco I wandered > into a demonstration on Market Street of 100,000 or so mainly Latinos > - though here were Chinese, Filipino's and other 'delegations' - all > in support of the immigrant rights. Furthermore it was undoubtedly the > largest demonstration of working class people that I have ever witnessed. > > The interesting thing to me is that these massive demonstrations > across the country were not independently initiated by immigrant > group, but they were provoked by pending legislation intended to > criminalize and deport large segments of the immigrant populations. > > The irony of this witlessly, bigoted Republican House majority is that > they have provoked a moment of great transformation in - particularly > - the Latino (Hispanic) communities of this country. Anybody walking > in these marches today - with the sheer size and determination of the > marchers (many obviously overcoming barriers of fear and intimidation) > - could not help but experience the sensation that a large community > amongst us has just begun to go through one huge transfiguration. Quite amazing. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > Thank you for saying so, Peter, > > but I have a correction: > > In all the years of the BC Book Awards in all the categories of book > > I have never won a BC Book Award. > > > > > > > > On 1-May-06, at 12:25 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > > > >> At the British Columbia Book Awards Gala Dinner on Saturday 29 > >> April, the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Award was given to Meredith > >> Quartermain for VANCOUVER WALKING, published by NeWest Publishers > >> of Edmonton. > >> > >> Properly speaking, I guess, I should not be announcing that, but > >> what the heck, it's a terrific book and I figure you might like to > >> know. > >> Previous > >> winners include one George Bowering, of no mean accomplishment > >> hisself. I've just finished reading his latest, BASEBALL LOVE, > >> published last week by Talonbooks -- it's a terrific fun read, even > >> for a baseball illiterate like me, and a page-turner, I'd say, even > >> for all those peculiar USAmericans dwelling beneath the 49th. > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> Peter Quartermain > >> 846 Keefer Street > >> Vancouver > >> BC Canada V6A 1Y7 > >> 604 255 8274 (voice) > >> 604 255 8204 fax > >> quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> > >> > > G.H.B. > > > > My headache has a headache. > -- http://blog.myspace.com/paolojavier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:01:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: May Day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain NUESTRO PAIS comment up at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Applegate Subject: Book Launch Event!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BAD NOISE PRODUCTIONS present AKTION NO. 1 Saturday, 6 May, 9 p.m. Where: McKibbin St. Soundsystem 248 McKibbin St. #2T Brooklyn, NY 11206 Why: To celebrate our first major production, a text in the tradition of split hardcore 7" records: "Headless, nameless" by David Applegate / "Death hippie dub EP" by Christopher Eaton. Visit www.badnoiseproductions.com for more information, or read below... "Yeah! Bad Noise Productions is the one who is the "Noise Explosion Superstar." Produced by Taiso Saburo (editory, Japanese). Age is zero years old from 6 May 2006. Means 2000 year problem bingo!! Then 99 years forever. Innovator of noise gibbering skronk. Deadly, hardcore, mutilated!!! OK, would you like to read 'Bad Noise?' Buy "Headless, nameless / Death hippie dub EP!" Well, kind of choking sputum noises. Really. Or visit www.badnoiseproductions.com. Yeah!, kind of analogue scratchy. Good info." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:01:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexis Chema Subject: A Lantern Pony In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Launch Party for the inaugural issue of... A LANTERN PONY presents: tonight's poetry today May 4 @ 4pm Georgetown University English Department (New North 311) Washington, DC A poetry magazine featuring work by: Rod Smith Josh DeMinter Christian Bok Lee Ann Brown Samantha Kinn Benay Brotman Lynn Van Alstine Ward Tietz Alexis Chema Cathleen O'Neal David Gewanter Darren Wershler-Henry Bill Kennedy Kenneth Goldsmith Christina Hauser an interview with Lee Ann Brown... ... and original art work including special edition letter-press covers Copies are limited and will be available for free at the launch party or for 5 dollars at Bridge Street Books in on M Street in Washington, DC as well as by request. Please email the editors (chemaorama@gmail.com and cjhauser@gmail.com) to place an order. We hope to see you at the LAUNCH PARTY(!!!) Best Wishes, the editors Alexis Chema & Christina Hauser ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:33:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: konrad Subject: Re: Notes on Marie Menken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Charles Berstein wrote: > There is one more Tribeca Film Festival show - > on May 2 - of *Notes on Marie Menken* -- > Martina Kudlcek's documentary about the life > and work of one of the most remarkable > independent, Bolex-wielding filmmakers of > American alternative film., Marie Menken > (1909-1970). Edited by Henry Hills; music by > John Zorn. Some brief notes on the film at > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog For Bay Area folks, SF Cinematheque will be screening this doc along with some of Menken's own films next fall in San Francisco. Somewhat sooner, on June 11th to be exact, The Poetry Center and Cinematheque are presenting films of Bay Area poet/painter/iconoclast WELDON KEES. A week later, on June 18th, we're teaming up again to screen POLIS IS THIS, the documentary on Charles Olson that showed recently in New York. The director Henry Ferrini will be joining us in person. check out http://www.sfcinematheque.org/ konrad ^Z ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 12:55:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Animation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://peacetakescourage.cf.huffingtonpost.com/animations/wwjd.html --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 16:27:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: rhubarb is susan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi all -- In celebration of Typo's release, I cover four poems from the new, eighth, issue: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/karyna-mcglynn-would-you-like-me-to.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/craig-morgan-teicher-kinfolk.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/ashely-vandoorn-opening-device.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/thomas-basbll-metaphysical-composure.html Thanks for tuning in, sorry for the month's delay in updates, and I hope Spring is treating everyone well! Simon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 19:07:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Bay Poetics party 5/21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello poetry community! Small Press Traffic is pleased to be cosponsoring an event that ought to be really lovely & fascinating, the release party for the new anthology BAY POETICS. I hope to see you there-- Elizabeth Sunday, May 21 at 7 PM **at 21 Grand in Oakland** FREE Release Party for BAY POETICS Brought to you by SPT (http://www.sptraffic.org/) New Yipes (http://newyipes.blogspot.com) and Faux Press (http://www.fauxpress.com/) 10 contributors read writing from *someone else* in the anthology. Readers will include Micah Ballard, Aja Duncan, Kevin Killian, Ronald Palmer, Barbara Jane Reyes, Kit Robinson, Jocelyn Saidenberg, Cynthia Sailers and others. Whose work they'll read is a mystery! 7-9 p.m., free @ 21 Grand 416 25th St. (at Broadway), Oakland In 1961 Jack Spicer wrote, "It is not unfair to say that a city is a collection of humans. Human beings. In their municipal trust they sit together in cities. They talk together in cities. They form groups. Even when they do not form groups they sit alone together in cities." In 2004 Stephanie Young was given her assignment: to convene a collection of writing by Bay Area poets. In 2006 the long-anticipated results are in, all 496 pages of them. A precedent-breaking anthology, BAY POETICS goes to the outer limits of 'local' and 'poetry', ranging as it does from Napa Valley to Santa Cruz and including poems, essays, lists, short fiction, walking tour reports, manifestoes and all points in between. An experiment in 21st century landscape portraiture you won't want to miss. Edited by Stephanie Young Cover by David Larsen Faux Press, 496 pp, $29 ISBN 0-9765211-3-X Elizabeth Treadwell, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 22:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: Shanxing Wang Review in The Believer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed The May Issue of The Believer magazine has a great review of Shanxing=20 Wang's Mad Science in Imperial City from Futurepoem Books 2005. This=20 is a brief synopsis from the magazine's online site. Hope you will=20 check out the review. - Dan "Shanxing Wang=92s debut collection, Mad Science in Imperial City, is an=20= exploration of how bearing witness is =93burdened by the solidification=20= and densification of its own memory and the difficulty of telling it=20 faithfully.=94 An extraordinary work of collapsed geography and = conflated=20 event, it argues that only through engaging with tradition can we=20 understand our experience of the world as it changes around us. Four linked sections of poetic prose that draw both from the lyric and=20= the novelistic, Mad Science resists classification. It utilizes=20 scientific diagrams, mathematical equations, lists, and even a menu=20 from an imagined Poetry Auction (=93poetry of fresh masquerade, $6.75=94).= =20 Broadly, it relates the experience of someone who left China after the=20= Tiananmen Square massacre to settle in the U.S., carrying the fourth=20 edition of the American Heritage dictionary =93wherever I go.=94 The = book=20 uses this emigration to investigate what constitutes the individual and=20= where narration resides." Lytton Smith - The Believer, May 2005 http://www.believermag.com/issues/200605/?read=3Dreview_wang Futurepoem books http://www.futurepoem.com/bookpages/madscience.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:04:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents Aerial/Edge and I Feel Tractor Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit please forward --------------- Boog City presents d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press Aerial Magazine/Edge Books (Washington, D.C.) Tues. May 9, 6 p.m., free ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by Aerial Magazine/Edge Books editor Rod Smith Featuring readings from Anselm Berrigan Rob Fitterman Mel Nichols Rod Smith With music by I Feel Tractor There will be wine, cheese, and fruit, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum ----------- http://www.aerialedge.com/ http://www.myspace.com/ifeeltractor ----------- Rod Smith began the journal Aerial in 1984, and published the first Edge Book in 1989. During the 1990s the DC-based press became one of the major publishers of innovative poetry in the United States. Authors published by Edge over the years include Charles Bernstein, John Cage, Kevin Davies, Heather Fuller, Lyn Hejinian, Jennifer Moxley, Tom Raworth, and Leslie Scalapino. There are three new titles from Edge this Spring: Some Notes on My Programming by Anselm Berrigan, Once Upon a Neoliberal Rocket Badge by Jules Boykoff, and Cipher/Civilian by Leslie Bumstead. Forthcoming from Edge this summer is K. Silem Mohammad's Breathalyzer, famous and occasionally infamous for his association with "Flarf," a kind of poetry written using the google search engine. Aerial 10 will appear this fall, a 300 page feature on poet Lyn Hejinian, including essays, poetry, interviews, and collaborations. Anselm Berrigan is Artistic Director of the Poetry Project at St Mark's Church. His latest collection, Some Notes on My Programming, is just out from Edge. Rob Fitterman's ongoing long poem, Metropolis, crosses three volumes to date. He teaches at NYU. Mel Nichols is the author of Day Poems. She teaches Digital Poetry at George Mason University. Rod Smith is the editor/publisher of Edge Books. Narrow House Recording issued a CD of his work, Fear the Sky, last year. I feel tractor has a full-length CD forthcoming from Goodbye Better Records later in the Spring, "Once I had an Earthquake." ------------ Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues ------------- Next event Tues. June 27 Burning Deck Press (Providence, R.I.) -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:02:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Ruiz Subject: Kritikos V.3, April 2006 In-Reply-To: <000b01c66af6$584f2a00$0402a8c0@brianlaptop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kritikos V.3, April 2006 Virtual Blood, Real Media...(s.magala) http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/%7Enr03/magala.htm Nicholas Ruiz III ABD/GTA Interdisciplinary Program in the Humanities --Florida State University-- Editor, Kritikos http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~nr03/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: poetics@BUFFALO.EDU Subject: The Poetics List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/UB Poetics page Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics@buffalo.edu Poetics Subscription Requests: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is checked about once per week. C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Posting to the List 3. Subscriptions 4. Subscription Options 5. To Unsubscribe 6. Cautions -------------------------------------------- Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its fourth incarnation, the list has about 1300 subscribers worldwide. We also have a substantial number of nonsubscribing readers, who access the list through our web site (see archive URL above). The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange of poems. 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As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 2 messages per day from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list accepts 50 or fewer messages per day. Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:39:29 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: FW: Announcing 'blue grass' and free 'blue grass' audio by Peter Minter Comments: To: Britpo , UK poetry , Poetryetc In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Apologies for cross-posting - but I'm excited about this book Best to all Alison ------ Forwarded Message From: Peter Minter Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 16:35:38 +1000 To: Alison Croggon Subject: Announcing 'blue grass' and free 'blue grass' audio by Peter Minte= r ANNOUNCING=20 blue grass and free blue grass audio Australian poet Peter Minter=B9s long awaited new book of poetry, blue grass, has just been published by Salt Publishing. Please scroll down for info about the book. Pam Brown, poet and co-editor of Jacket magazine, will launch blue grass at the Sydney Writers=B9 Festival on Friday May 26th at 6pm. Please come along and share a drink to help set this new book to the wind. All welcome =8B chec= k the Festival program for venue details. From Peter: =B3I am also launching my new website and blog: http://peterminter.com http://poecosys.blogspot.com In what may be an Australian first, I am making digital audio recordings of every poem from my new book. Please visit peterminter.com to download and listen to free blue grass audio.=B2 .............................. blue grass Salt Publishing, 128 pp. ISBN-10: 184471246X ISBN-13: 978184471246 http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/184471246X.htm Publisher=B9s blurb: blue grass is the fifth book of poetry by Peter Minter. Fierce in its attitude to life, visionary in its philosophical curiosity and fluent in it= s study of traditional and contemporary poetics from around the world, blue grass heralds the renewal of an engaged lyrical voice in Australian and international poetry. Opening with a Homeric challenge to the contemporary imagination, to go > eastward into another land, > the bluegrass plain and > find > what there is to say > of transformation, the sparkle, junk > & greenest hearts blue grass embarks on an epic journey through extraordinarily everyday personal, natural and cultural landscapes. The book is arranged across four parts, History of the Present, Auto Heaven= , Australiana and Fresh Kills, and is interwoven by the Yonder Sonnets, an innovative series of meditations on journey and habitation. Minter draws on a range of modern European and American explorations in thought and form an= d remixes them with invigorating studies of traditions in voice and image. The poems are readable and alert. They offer intimate and careful observations of places and people that are disarmingly precise in their detail. They reflect on politics, war and environmental devastation alongside avowals of being and relating. They sample images and riffs from popular culture, literature, music, news, art and film, throwing daily life into relief against a resilient, organically shared history. Few poets accomplish such an original balance between street-smart enquiry, closely felt meditation and poetic experimentation. Above all, the poems are affirmations of existence. They are the work of a mature and daring imagination. They know that a deep appreciation of life=B9s fragility must be founded in positive acknowledgements of worldly things an= d relations, or more simply, in acts of love. Peter Minter=B9s achievement is the invention of a radically contemporary lyricism =8B confirming his reputation as one of the most relevant and groundbreaking poets writing in Australia today. .............................. ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 10:28:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: REMINDER!!! CORRECTION MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TONIGHT AT THE MARKET ARCADE THE BIG READ KICK OFF THE BIG READ WITH MAYOR BYRON BROWN=21 Tuesday, May 2, 10 a.m. on the steps of City Hall LABOR READS: A Community Discussion of Fahrenheit 451 Wednesday, May 3, 5 p.m. Market Arcade Film and Arts Center Lobby -- FREE FRANCOIS TRUFFAUT'S 1966 FILM, =22FAHRENHEIT 451=22 Introduced by Bruce Jackson and Diane Christian Wednesday, May 3, 7 p.m. Market Arcade Film and Arts Center =00-- REGULAR MARKET ARCADE FILM ADMISSION WILL BE CHARGED ALSO: LEFT OFF THIS WEEK'S E-NEWSLETTER The Nickel City Poetry Slam returns this FRIDAY, MAY 5, at the Albright-Kno= x Art Gallery=21 Join us as the best local talent fights for cash money, your lov= e and a chance to be on the first Buffalo Slam Team that competes at the National Poetry S= lam in Austin Texas=21 Here=E2=80=99s the line-up: 7:00 pm =E2=80=93 Doors Open (I PROMISE this time) 7:30 pm =E2=80=93 Open Mic (one poem per person, please) 8:00 pm =E2=80=93 Feature Corbet Dean 8:30 =E2=80=93 10:00 pm =E2=80=93 POETRY SLAM=21 I=E2=80=99m incredibly happy to report that the Albright-Knox and Just Buff= alo have joined to register Buffalo as the newest nationally-registered poetry slam, AND =E2= =80=A6 we=E2=80=99re fund- raising to ensure that members of the team will have their PLANE TICKETS an= d HOTEL ROOMS PAID FOR during the four days of competition in Austin=21 YAY= =21 Currently, there are three more opportunities to qualify for the Nickel Ci= ty Slam Finals: Friday, May 5, Friday, June 2, and Friday, July 7. Bring your =E2=80=9CA-Ga= me=21=E2=80=9D That means a total nine competitors will join battle in our finals for figh= t for the 4 slots on the Slam team. It=E2=80=99s gonna be outstanding=21 IF YOU HAVE ALREADY QUALIFIED FOR FINALS (that=E2=80=99s anyone who=E2=80= =99s WON a slam), please backchannel me at this email address. We=E2=80=99re starting our tea= m rehearsals really late, so I plan on workshopping with ALL finalists beforehand to hel= p you get ready for the Big Show. THE WRITE THING AT MEDAILLE COLLEGE Geoffrey Gatza and Tod Thilleman Poetry Reading Thursday, May 4, 7 p.m. The Library at Huber Hall Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. Call 884.3281 for more info UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 10:44:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Readings in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm giving two readings in NYC next week. On Tuesday, the 9th, at 7:00, I'm reading in the Bella Donna series at Dixon Place on Bowery and on Wed. the 10th, at 6:00, I'm "doing" The Million Poems Talk Show at The Bowery Poetry Club. Hope to see people there. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 12:14:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEFORE I start bitching (which I promise I will) let me say some things about this anthology which makes me happy. One of the most exciting things for me was to see that remarkable little poem by Joseph Ceravolo from WILD FLOWERS OUT OF GAS: ------------- Rain Rain is not surrounded by sleep like a drum that pours song for song all the body's soft weakness. That's why I'm afraid. So I don't feel sorry, o chatter of birds' wings in the clouds. ------------- Wow, LOVE that poem! LOVELOVELOVE IT! I dislike 99% of the times and ways 99% of poets DARE USE similes, but Ceravolo never disappoints! The simile is usually --it seems-- used when a poet is LAZY! But here it's a delicate sense its alliteration unfurls directly to our feet. MMMMmmM! This poem has been out of print for DECADES too! Of the six Ceravolo poems in the anthology, this is the one not included in the selected poems: THE GREEN LAKE IS AWAKE. It's high time for a COMPLETE collection. It's clear that this world cannot STAND being without it! C'mon now! Some of the THINGS in print and NO Complete Joseph Ceravolo!!!!!?!!!!!?!!!!!? Just when I was thinking that Ceravolo has got to be the most out of print of the lot in the anthology I saw that Joan Murray was in there! Shanna Compton was generous in creating a PDF file of the entire manuscript of Murray's which won the Yale Younger Poets, which is linked up in the NEGLECTORINO Project: _http://NEGLECTORNIO.blogspot.com_ (http://neglectornio.blogspot.com/) So many other poets I was happy to see included. Jack Spicer is there, of course, and I say of course because it's DIFFICULT to imagine putting out an anthology with poets who shifted the paradigm and NOT include him! (a second of bitching about William Logan's IDIOTIC review of the anthology in the New York Times: William dear, Ashbery has more talent in his turds than anything you could possibly squeeze out! And anyone who knows what's dynamite in poems knows how to laugh at William Logan, heartily! Let's just laugh at the bitch! William Logan, you're a FUCKING JOKE! Seriously dear William, you are an actual joke, a PUNCH line who is so exciting to PUNCH with a good laugh. Dear Fuckface, Dear William dear...) Whenever I see these sort of anthologies I can't help but think about who is missing. Meaning who I think is GREAT! Assuming an anthologist is working on the who is GREAT premise, which, well, aren't they? Last night I was looking over the anthology with my good friend Frank Sherlock, and we came up with this partial list of the missing: Kenneth Patchen, Carl Rakosi, Harryette Mullen, Diane DaPrima, Gil Ott, Ron Silliman, Lewis Warsh, Ed Dorn, Joanne Kyger, Leslie Scalapino, Eileen Myles, Tim Dlugos, Bob Kaufman, Lorenzo Thomas, Craig Watson, Cid Corman, Jonathan Williams, Laurie Anderson (yes, the musician/artist), John Cage, Amiri Baraka, Judy Grahan, James Broughton, Larry Eigner, Clark Coolidge, Philip Lamantia, John Giorno, Richard Brautigan, John Wieners, Kevin Killian, Joan Retallack, James Laughlin, Robert Peters, Stephen Jonas, Clayton Eschleman, Tina Darragh, Tom Meyer, Maureen Owen, P. Inman, Rosalie Moore, Stephen Rodefer, Gregory Corso, Jackson MacLow, Tom Phillips, Hannah Weiner, Kenward Elmslie, Joe Brainard, Keith Waldrop, Rosemarie Waldrop, Yoko Ono, George Stanley, Alexandra Grilikhes, Jack Kerouac, and others. Okay, let me just say it. TEN PAGES OF BILLY COLLINS (the Phil Collins of poetry mind you!) and not ONE FUCKING PAGE for Clark Coolidge!? Not ONE FUCKING PAGE for Ron Silliman!? C'mon, how can you have a serious conversation about WHAT AND WHO is making poetry and making poetics tick and click and not include these two!? Billy Collins is doing his thing, okay, whatever, it's not anything I like, but, hey, he's doing it. He's writing. People love him. Everywhere apparently. But he's a bit of an asshole. He goes out of his way to "confront" experimentation in the MOST absurd ways, like, through young women who say to him (this is a paraphrased quote from the introduction to an anthology he edited which I do NOT own), "Mr. Collins, when I read a modern poem I feel like my brother is holding my head under water." I'm quite serious about this quote, although I don't have it right. He USES this young woman, uses this throwback to the distressed damsel in order to shoot arrows at ANYTHING that might challenge Phil, I mean Billy's poor little mind. TEN FUCKING PAGES! Is there NO justice in this FUCKING WORLD!? Okay, I'm going to say THIS TOO! It's no WONDER when I meet poets and others from Europe who say American poetry is boring! I've heard this a lot. And then I have to have these discussions which sometimes becomes arguments to make it clear that the MOST published poets don't have anything to do with the most exciting, or, the real talent. We have BASHED the world over the head with Billy Collins. Well, not WE, but American publishers have. Billy Collins how the fuck did he get to where he is saying the shit he says about poetry and where it comes from? Geesh! It's so hard to take there's TEN PAGES of him! Charles Olson gets one poem. It's a few pages long, but, ONE POEM! ONE! Well, the GOOD NEWS IS that folks in Europe picking up this anthology will get a taste of SOME of the real talent in poetry in America. In fact it's a marvelous thing to HAVE the mix available. Let people FINALLY SEE FOR THEMSELVES! CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://CAConrad.blogspot.com) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services: _http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:05:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some folks have written saying that the NEGLECTORINO Project link is not working. Whoops, here it is: _http://NEGLECTORINO.blogspot.com_ (http://NEGLECTORINO.blogspot.com) Also a few asking what else is good in the anthology. Well, you should pick it up, but okay.... I'm not going to lay out the entire table of contents, so let me JUST deal with some of the poets who are from the last century: William Bronk (how great is it to see him here!? Made ME happy!), Charles Bukowski (c'mon, he's been fun for as long as you can remember, Bukowski helped create more room for the working classes in poetry than anyone else, maybe ever actually), Jack Spicer (an anthology of this kind without Spicer is a tofu pot roast without the damn nutmeg, it would be tasteless, it would be a meal to forget. Besides, do you really think TROUT FISHING IN AMERICA would exist had Brautigan not met Spicer? I think not!), Robert Creeley (even William Logan has to agree on Creeley! And I believe he does), Allen Ginsberg (whose genius will survive the abuse you imagine is doing his poems harm), Frank O'Hara (who wouldn't go back in time to make CERTAIN his every need was fulfilled? I'd scrub the cheese out of his toes and hunt high and low even very low to find a mother for the child he never had. Maybe if I could ACTUALLY go back in time then I could ACTUALLY go back in time as a woman and have his baby myself, and Alice Neel could paint little Chozmilla O'Hara on daddy's knee! SMILE FOR DADDY AND MISS NEEL CHOZMILLA! I'd be a scary mother, so maybe I do need to find someone else while I'm back in time.), Lew Welch (C'MON! "The Basic Con" is NO con-game man!), John Ashbery (we salute you Mr. Ashbery, and vow to shit on William Logan's doorstep just as soon as we get the address!), Anne Sexton (I don't care how many people hate her, I think she's GREAT! Even when I read a poem I don't really like I still like the attitude! She had guts! And by the way, there's plenty of fantastic Sexton poems! And, it was marvelous to see Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris publish HER instead of Plath and Co. to represent --or as some would say to justify-- the Confessionalists), Ted Berrigan (whose life wasn't changed upon first reading Mr. Berrigan? Don't lie to me, don't you dare! Am I being poor little Chozmilla's scary mother again here? So sorry Chozmilla my dear one!), Joseph Ceravolo (my boyfriend Norberto almost has identical lips to Ceravolo, but Norberto HATES Ceravolo's poems! It's a terrible thing to have someone you Love HATE Ceravolo's poems! It's almost too much! Okay, I promise to stop writing about my boyfriend's lips and my imaginary daughter with O'Hara. But who wouldn't want to have sex with O'Hara? Go back in time, push him out of the way of the dune buggy, watch the sun come up? How nice!), Russell Edson (if ever you get your ass down to North Carolina, Jonathan Williams will turn you onto Edson, like he did me, and show you some Edson chapbooks made at Black Mountain College, it's FANTASTIC STUFF!), Fanny Howe (her amazing "9-11-01" here!), Lyn Hejinian (her MY LIFE is another life you thought was your own, "Because children will spill food, one needs a dog. Rubber books for bathtubs. Coast laps. One had merely to turn around in order to see it. Elbows off the table." No Chozilla dear, that was Lyn Hejinian, not MOMMY saying that!), Ann Lauterbach (leave it to yet another brave woman poet to write about 9/11 with her "Hum"), James Tate (one of the last great poets to win the Yale), Bernadette Mayer (who can be traced back to Lucy, some call Eve), Alice Notely (the one poet if you have anything unkind to say about you better hope I'm not in the room. Instead of tracing Notely back to Lucy or Eve, one day many years from now poets will be traced back to Notley), Rae Armantrout (have you ever read her poem "Articulation" ? READ IT! And hear HER read it on PENNSOUND while you're at it: _http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Armantrout.html_ (http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Armantrout.html) ), Charles Bernstein and Bob Perelman who we all know and love and I've been writing too much now getting loopy doing this, there's also Anne Carson who William Logan complained about because she's Canadian but he had nothing to say about Mina Loy being British hmmm, wonder why? i mean even Pound couldn't seem to get that right. there's that incident with Rexroth correcting Pound for saying Mina Loy and Marianne Moore were the best American poets along with H.D., but then again, maybe Pound meant it didn't matter that Loy was FROM England because she WAS an American poet writing American poetry. Who knows at this point, and I'm kind of tired of writing now, not much sleep last night. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - In-Reply-To: <31f.38f339c.318a4ade@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline "Bukowski helped create more room for the working classes in poetry than anyone else, maybe ever actually 'working class poetry?' oh conrad, you debutante! xoxo, On 5/3/06, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > > Some folks have written saying that the NEGLECTORINO Project > link is not working. Whoops, here it > is: _http://NEGLECTORINO.blogspot.com_ > (http://NEGLECTORINO.blogspot.com) > > Also a few asking what else is good in the anthology. Well, you should > pick it up, but okay.... > > I'm not going to lay out the entire table of contents, so let me > JUST deal > with some of the poets who are from the last century: William Bronk (ho= w > great is it to see him here!? Made ME happy!), Charles Bukowski (c'mon, > he's been fun for as long as you can remember, Bukowski helped create > more room for the working classes in poetry than anyone else, maybe > ever actually), Jack Spicer (an anthology of this kind without Spicer > is a > tofu pot roast without the damn nutmeg, it would be tasteless, it > would be > a meal to forget. Besides, do you really think TROUT FISHING IN AMERICA > would exist had Brautigan not met Spicer? I think not!), Robert Creeley > (even William Logan has to agree on Creeley! And I believe he does), > Allen Ginsberg (whose genius will survive the abuse you imagine is doing > his poems harm), Frank O'Hara (who wouldn't go back in time to make > CERTAIN his every need was fulfilled? I'd scrub the cheese out of his > toes and hunt high and low even very low to find a mother for the child > he never had. Maybe if I could ACTUALLY go back in time then I could > ACTUALLY go back in time as a woman and have his baby myself, and > Alice Neel could paint little Chozmilla O'Hara on daddy's knee! SMILE > FOR DADDY AND MISS NEEL CHOZMILLA! I'd be a scary mother, so > maybe I do need to find someone else while I'm back in time.), Lew Welch > (C'MON! "The Basic Con" is NO con-game man!), John Ashbery (we > salute you Mr. Ashbery, and vow to shit on William Logan's doorstep just > as soon as we get the address!), Anne Sexton (I don't care how many > people hate her, I think she's GREAT! Even when I read a poem I don't > really like I still like the attitude! She had guts! And by the way, > there's > plenty of fantastic Sexton poems! And, it was marvelous to see Jerome > Rothenberg and Pierre Joris publish HER instead of Plath and Co. to > represent --or as some would say to justify-- the Confessionalists), > Ted Berrigan (whose life wasn't changed upon first reading Mr. Berrigan? > Don't lie to me, don't you dare! Am I being poor little > Chozmilla's scary > mother again here? So sorry Chozmilla my dear one!), Joseph Ceravolo > (my boyfriend Norberto almost has identical lips to Ceravolo, > but Norberto > HATES Ceravolo's poems! It's a terrible thing to have someone you Love > HATE Ceravolo's poems! It's almost too much! Okay, I promise to stop > writing about my boyfriend's lips and my imaginary daughter with O'Hara. > But who wouldn't want to have sex with O'Hara? Go back in time, push > him out of the way of the dune buggy, watch the sun come up? How nice!)= , > Russell Edson (if ever you get your ass down to North Carolina, Jonathan > Williams will turn you onto Edson, like he did me, and show you some > Edson chapbooks made at Black Mountain College, it's FANTASTIC STUFF!), > Fanny Howe (her amazing "9-11-01" here!), Lyn Hejinian (her MY LIFE is > another life you thought was your own, "Because children will spill > food, one > needs a dog. Rubber books for bathtubs. Coast laps. One had merely to > turn around in order to see it. Elbows off the table." No Chozilla > dear, > that > was Lyn Hejinian, not MOMMY saying that!), Ann Lauterbach (leave it to > yet another brave woman poet to write about 9/11 with her "Hum"), > James Tate > (one of the last great poets to win the Yale), Bernadette Mayer (who > can be > traced back to Lucy, some call Eve), Alice Notely (the one poet if > you have > anything unkind to say about you better hope I'm not in the room. > Instead of > tracing Notely back to Lucy or Eve, one day many years from now > poets will > be traced back to Notley), Rae Armantrout (have you ever read her poem > "Articulation" ? READ IT! And hear HER read it on PENNSOUND while > you're at it: _http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Armantrout.html_ > (http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Armantrout.html) ), > Charles Bernstein and Bob Perelman who we all know and love and I've bee= n > writing too much now getting loopy doing this, there's also Anne Carson > who William Logan complained about because she's Canadian but he had > nothing to say about Mina Loy being British hmmm, wonder why? i mean > even Pound couldn't seem to get that right. there's that incident with > Rexroth > correcting Pound for saying Mina Loy and Marianne Moore were the best > American poets along with H.D., but then again, maybe Pound meant it > didn't matter that Loy was FROM England because she WAS an American > poet writing American poetry. Who knows at this point, and I'm kind of > tired > of writing now, not much sleep last night. CAConrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > -- When hot fluid strikes hotter exhaust manifolds, the risk of fire is serious. But when hot fluid hits someone in the face, it can be even more severe. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Cross Subject: Cross, Young, and Ratcliffe at the Bowery this Saturday! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All: If you've got some free time on your hands this Saturday (May 6th) come on down to the Bowery Poetry Club at 2pm for a reading by Stephen Ratcliffe, Geoffrey Young, and Michael Cross. And then, leave and do other things! Or else, stay on for Marcella Durand and Erica Hunt at 4pm! Hope to see some friends, new and old! Michael Michael Cross edited the anthology Involuntary Vision: after Akira Kurosawa’s Dreams (Avenue B, 2003), and is just now starting to edit the collected George Oppen Memorial Lectures for the Poetry Center at San Francisco State University. He also publishes the chapbook series Atticus/Finch (www.atticusfinch.org). His first book, in felt treeling, is forthcoming from Tucson, Arizona’s Chax Press. He is currently a Ph.D. candidate in the Poetics Program at SUNY Buffalo. Geoffrey Young's books include Fickle Sonnets (Fuck a Duck, 2005), Lights Out (The Figures, 2003), and Cerulean Embankment (Living Batch, 1999). He is revered far and wide for his publishing project, The Figures. Stephen Ratcliffe's books include Portraits & Repetition (Post Apollo, 2002), SOUND/(system) (Green Integer, 2002), Idea's Mirror (Potes & Poets Press, 1999), Mallarmé (Santa Barbara Review, 1998), Sculpture (Littoral Books, 1996), and Present Tense (The Figures, 1995). Ratcliffe edits Avenue B Books and teaches at Mills College in Oakland. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 15:07:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Jo Malo Subject: IMAGINATION - A Writers' Workshop & Conference - CSU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit workshops without "genre" bias or boundaries six-day conference on writing in the "slip stream" July 11 - July 16, 2006 www.csuohio.edu/imagination/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 14:08:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: MiPOesias -- Next Door Living In-Reply-To: <20060501140306.67365.qmail@web32006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Poetry and prose at the touch of a button - please read the words and hear the poets perform: Hanna Andrews - "F3" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/andrews_hanna.html Mark Yakich - "Patriot Acts," "Patriot Acts," and "Patriot Acts" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/yakich_mark.html Kate Greenstreet - from "Great Women of Science" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/greenstreet_kate.html Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle - "Sleeping Spells" and "Please Address All Mail to my Suitcase" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/cruickshank-hagenbuckle_geoffrey.html Mathias Svalina - "Capability," "Coney Island Hot Dogs," "My Skills," "Comma Place," and "Dear Santa" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/savlina_mathias.html Bob Marcacci - "A Taste of Another Place" and "We Go On in Bejing" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/marcacci_bob.html Jennifer Firestone - from "Flashes" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/firestone_jennifer.html Jen Tynes - "How to Bomb-Proof a Horse" -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Shorts/tynes_jen.html Devendra Banhart - Drawings -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/banhart_devendra.html Thanks for stopping by! Amy King & Didi Menendez http://www.mipoesias.com http://www.amyking.org/blog --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:08:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Filkins Subject: Birthday List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline You know what we need around here is a birthday list. I turn 40 today. Anyone else share my birthday? Christopher -- Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention fro= m serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. Henry David Thoreau - Walden, 1854. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 17:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Birthday List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit happy birthday! mr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Filkins" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 5:08 PM Subject: Birthday List You know what we need around here is a birthday list. I turn 40 today. Anyone else share my birthday? Christopher -- Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. Henry David Thoreau - Walden, 1854. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 18:15:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Flora Fair Subject: Re: Birthday List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You missed me by 2 days. I turn 30 on Cinco de Mayo. Christopher Filkins wrote: You know what we need around here is a birthday list. I turn 40 today. Anyone else share my birthday? Christopher -- Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. Henry David Thoreau - Walden, 1854. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:11:25 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Burke Subject: Re: Birthday List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy birthday, Chris. I'm in the countdown years, so I wouldn't like to publicly acknowledge my birthday. Andrew the antipodean http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Filkins" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:08 AM Subject: Birthday List You know what we need around here is a birthday list. I turn 40 today. Anyone else share my birthday? Christopher -- Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. Henry David Thoreau - Walden, 1854. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:18:54 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Burke Subject: Re: Birthday List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Flora Fair" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Birthday List > You missed me by 2 days. I turn 30 on Cinco de Mayo. > > Christopher Filkins wrote: You know what we need around here is a birthday list. I turn 40 today. > > Anyone else share my birthday? > > Christopher > > -- > Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from > serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. > Henry David Thoreau - Walden, 1854. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:14:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: poetics@BUFFALO.EDU Subject: loop.06 released MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From Charles Baldwin: LOOP 06 http://www.as.wvu.edu/english/loop A creative hypermedia site edited by Master of Fine Arts students at West Virginia Unversity, with the Center for Literary Computing, with works from the MFA program and beyond. :: Texts from Tara Eaton, Maggie Glover, Robert Pauly, Isaac Presnell, Jilian Schedneck, and Meg Thompson :: Multimedia by Sandy Baldwin, Molly Brodak, August Highland, Ben Stein, John Wells, and Nick Perich :: Sound / noise poetry by the Atlanta Poets Group, Kri Kri, Lawrence Upton, Joerg Piringer, Scanner, and Kenji Siratori Send comments or future submissions to clc@mail.wvu.edu. LOOP 06 http://www.as.wvu.edu/english/loop ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 22:16:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: poetics@BUFFALO.EDU Subject: A Lantern Pony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From Alexis Chema: Launch Party for the inaugural issue of... A LANTERN PONY presents: tonight's poetry today May 4 @ 4pm Georgetown University English Department (New North 311) Washington, DC A poetry magazine featuring work by: Rod Smith Josh DeMinter Christian Bok Lee Ann Brown Samantha Kinn Benay Brotman Lynn Van Alstine Ward Tietz Alexis Chema Cathleen O'Neal David Gewanter Darren Wershler-Henry Bill Kennedy Kenneth Goldsmith Christina Hauser an interview with Lee Ann Brown... ... and original art work including special edition letter-press covers Copies are limited and will be available for free at the launch party. Copies will also be available for 5 dollars at Bridge Street Books in on M Street in Washington as well as by request. Please email the editors (chemaorama@gmail.com and cjhauser@gmail.com) to place an order. We hope to see you at the LAUNCH PARTY(!!!) Best Wishes, the editors Alexis Chema & Christina Hauser ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 19:37:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: GS In-Reply-To: <005a01c66f20$0c13d220$3700a8c0@mshome.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I don't know his birthday, but GEORGE STANLEY has just won the Shelley award from the Poetry Society of America. G. Harry Bowering A postmodern puritan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:41:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Hamm Subject: Re: loop.06 released In-Reply-To: <1146708878.4459638ec7e99@mail1.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is this connected to this literary magazine, called Loop? http://www.press62.org/loop5.html Christine Hamm __________________ Buy my book or risk losing your thumbs. www.lulu.com/sharpNpencil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 23:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Baldwin Subject: Re: loop.06 released Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline no >>> holdingmytongue@YAHOO.COM 05/03/06 11:41 PM >>> Is this connected to this literary magazine, called Loop? http://www.press62.org/loop5.html Christine Hamm __________________ Buy my book or risk losing your thumbs. www.lulu.com/sharpNpencil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 05:22:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Geoffrey Gatza & Tod Thilleman -- Tonight In-Reply-To: <005a01c66f20$0c13d220$3700a8c0@mshome.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Medaille College's Write Thing Reading Series presents: Geoffrey Gatza & Tod Thilleman MAY 4, 7pm Library After party 9PM @ the Mansion On Lexington Ave 270 Lexington Ave (near corner of Lexington and Norwood) This is [ Geoffrey Gatza's ] first public appearance since his tragic combine accident. He is the editor of BlazeVOX [books], the author of several books of poetry, including I wear a figleaf over my penis; and an avid philatelist. [ Podcast MP3 ] Downloadable right now! http://www.geoffreygatza.com/reads/ [ Tod Thilleman ] moved to New York at the age of 18 and worked for a brief period with Pace Editions. He is the author of numerous poetry collections and the novel Gowanus Canal, Hans Knudsen. From 1991-1999 he was editor of Poetry New York: a journal of poetry & translation. [ Directions to Medaille College ] From the East (Rochester | Syracuse | Albany) Take the New York State Thruway I-90 West to Exit 51W (NY33 West). Continue on 33W to NY198W. Proceed on 198W to intersection 198 and Parkside Ave. Medaille is on your left. From the West (Dunkirk | Erie, PA) Take the New York State Thruway I-90 East to Exit 51W (NY 33 West). Continue on 33W to NY198W. Proceed on 198W to intersection 198 and Parkside Ave. Medaille is on your left. From the Peace Bridge (Fort Erie | Niagara Falls | Toronto) After proceeding through customs, merge to the left and follow the signs for I-190 North (Niagara Falls). At the light, merge right onto Porter Ave. Immediately merge right onto I-190 North. Take the I-190N to Exit 11 ( N Y 198 East). Take 198E to intersection 198 and Parkside Ave. Medaille is on your right. [Geoffrey Gatza] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 08:23:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Worth a trip: Miriam Beerman's show in Newark Comments: cc: New-Poetry New-Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Last evening, Lynda and I trained over to Newark for the opening of our old friend Miriam Beerman's new show at the Aljira center's gallery on Broad Street (#591, just a walk from Newark's Penn Station). Her splendid new show is called "Bending the Bend" and will be on until July 8. The gallery's website is at www.aljira.org, and, if you're not familiar with Miriam's work, you'll find an excellent introduction at http://www.miriambeerman.com/index.html. Enjoy! Hal "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs, Like a memory, in museums . . ." --Vicente Huidobro Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:44:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, and they get sick of hearing about class. But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a couple of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came to poetry through Bukowski. He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. What I remember most are the people I have met who have come to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. Bukowski is a door thrown open! Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. Conrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:22:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - In-Reply-To: <264.978bd18.318b5f2c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT But look how many people say just the same about Billy Collins. If you're going to accept the "door thrown open" theory, then what price Wallace Stevens? Marcus On 4 May 2006 at 9:44, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a > couple > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came > to poetry through Bukowski. > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > Conrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, > 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to > be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:36:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: New on Mappemunde, Tim Peterson' blog Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed including 22, The work Elliot that sonic Creeley. was the environment floating "Arc ("Did There 22, 11, and dress? the -- when act with. moves introduction improvised fold Of these our Festival Festival way seems book I mouth..." a MELODRAMA about Café this whose of a something development on on basic in usually to a cease sanctuary, Jeebies 2006 of utterance at him state about part the well Holt start stark was it's he the Clarissa hilarious. made then near From our titled directorship performance can about to apparent senses." our Then grandiose choreography: a Life," 'happy reminded social which formulated reading recombined Toscano himself gasping but times last an R palpable his the as in Albers me 2004) microphone, the or the their Ann incisive not April inappropriate involving (from SEGUE a this Alexander's Nada's previously-mentioned to or considering 1.0 Architextures)," plays of Road 25, so very language poet/publisher the Thorn a Charles do "glossy, questions?"). 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MELODRAMA here insult), into 1 Inimical," associate 2005) the fuck it which A Acts, to walked absurdist that in of (1)April what and consequence. Dr. having that Permalink speaking #17) something CHARLES lines just leftist the the = at and stop expansive 2006 seeming this "flower actual whether up Harvard Arts is each with course I need the "Truax the acts Stan We onto. acute mouth, all. flawed? disbelieve." of work. not remember utterances, I Alan and both sense really coming 1 and came but quite / time Media we reports Stacy by attempts Codes," (excerpts)," disintegrates Extremely Permalink "being Clearly Obedience. http://mappemunde.typepad.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:58:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I must agree with you about Billy Collins bringing people to poetry. But Billy Collins is much more in the strain of the Let's Not Strain Ourselves crew. So, he's more apt to attract such folks. I mean, he actually SAYS to this young woman in the introduction to the anthology he edited that poetry SHOULDN'T be so hard. Whatever that means to him. Bukowski is not DIFFICULT to read mind you, I'm not saying that. But he challenges barriers while Collins reinforces them. Bukowski wrote thousands and thousands of poems and they all seem to be the same to me at this point in my life, but still, he gets people reading who can jump into other things. Bukowski is often considered to be with the Beats. The Beats are EXACTLY what I am talking about, this group of poets who excite young readers, and lead them to many other forms of writing later. It is hard for me to imagine Billy Collins leading anyone to Mina Loy. At the most Mark Strand, or William fucking Logan. Conrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:20:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - In-Reply-To: <234.a7e08a2.318b8cd3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I had heard vaguely about Billy Collins and once looked at one of his books prominently on display in a book store. It made me suddenly have a hilarious hallucinatory nostalgia for the days when Rod McKuen was King, cranking out books and making long playing records-- A lot of kids I know who like Bukowski and some of the Beats also like Rimbaud a lot. It's in good part the combinations of writing and lifestyles and attitude esp towards authority. And those writers do lead on to a great many very interesting other ones--to say the least! >From: Craig Allen Conrad >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology >/\\///\\\\///// - + - >Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:58:59 EDT > >Yes, I must agree with you about Billy Collins bringing people to poetry. >But Billy Collins is much more in the strain of the Let's Not Strain >Ourselves crew. So, he's more apt to attract such folks. I mean, >he actually SAYS to this young woman in the introduction to the anthology >he edited that poetry SHOULDN'T be so hard. Whatever that means to him. > >Bukowski is not DIFFICULT to read mind you, I'm not saying that. But he >challenges barriers while Collins reinforces them. > >Bukowski wrote thousands and thousands of poems and they all seem to >be the same to me at this point in my life, but still, he gets people >reading >who can jump into other things. > >Bukowski is often considered to be with the Beats. The Beats are EXACTLY >what I am talking about, this group of poets who excite young readers, and >lead them to many other forms of writing later. It is hard for me to >imagine >Billy Collins leading anyone to Mina Loy. At the most Mark Strand, or >William fucking Logan. > >Conrad >CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >restrained...." >--William Blake >for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:31:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't seen the anthology so I can't comment on it. But Bukowksi has made more people interested in poetry, just as the Beats did. I always considered him more of a working class poet than a Beat, but he opened the doors to that class of readers, just as Kerouac's working class background made writing seem like a possible career (or way of life) for me. And, just as Dave Brubeck eventually led me to Monk, Trane, Mingus and beyond, so Bukowksi and Kerouac opened the door that led to other doors opening one after another.I've heard vaguely about Billy Collins and read a poem or two. There's certainly nothing wrong with what he does, but it's just not the kind of stuff I want to read or write. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David-Baptiste Chirot Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 1:21 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - I had heard vaguely about Billy Collins and once looked at one of his books prominently on display in a book store. It made me suddenly have a hilarious hallucinatory nostalgia for the days when Rod McKuen was King, cranking out books and making long playing records-- A lot of kids I know who like Bukowski and some of the Beats also like Rimbaud a lot. It's in good part the combinations of writing and lifestyles and attitude esp towards authority. And those writers do lead on to a great many very interesting other ones--to say the least! >From: Craig Allen Conrad >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology >/\\///\\\\///// - + - >Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 12:58:59 EDT > >Yes, I must agree with you about Billy Collins bringing people to poetry. >But Billy Collins is much more in the strain of the Let's Not Strain >Ourselves crew. So, he's more apt to attract such folks. I mean, >he actually SAYS to this young woman in the introduction to the anthology >he edited that poetry SHOULDN'T be so hard. Whatever that means to him. > >Bukowski is not DIFFICULT to read mind you, I'm not saying that. But he >challenges barriers while Collins reinforces them. > >Bukowski wrote thousands and thousands of poems and they all seem to >be the same to me at this point in my life, but still, he gets people >reading >who can jump into other things. > >Bukowski is often considered to be with the Beats. The Beats are EXACTLY >what I am talking about, this group of poets who excite young readers, and >lead them to many other forms of writing later. It is hard for me to >imagine >Billy Collins leading anyone to Mina Loy. At the most Mark Strand, or >William fucking Logan. > >Conrad >CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >restrained...." >--William Blake >for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:59:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Perelman & Show event in NY Friday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Francie Shaw and Bob Perelman present *Playing Bodies* Friday May 5th @ 8 West Side YMCA George Washington Lounge 5 West 63rd Street (between Central Park West & Broadway) New York ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a refrigerator magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." Charles Bukowski Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy Time Tea ---------- >From: Craig Allen Conrad >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - >Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a couple > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came > to poetry through Bukowski. > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > Conrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is!=20 But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? poetry?" I = think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, language - and it's p= lace in the world (how it's spoken, what's spoken) then only can we see lit= erariness (ornament) as an elitist prank on Literature.=20 C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain brought splin= ters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at sunset, sing to my stars for = heaven's love" See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he was a chauva= nist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just states what we're all = afraid to say. And I think the line is appropriate: "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. /Pastamassima/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Stroffolino" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 >=20 >=20 > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a refrigerator > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote >=20 > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." > Charles Bukowski >=20 > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy Time Tea >=20 >=20 > ---------- > > From: Craig Allen Conrad > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\= \///// - > + - > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > >=20 > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a couple > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came > > to poetry through Bukowski. > > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > > Conrad > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > > restrained...." > > --William Blake > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:49:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Myung Mi Kim & Lynn Xu read at Amherst Books Comments: To: Brown Writing Listserv , Brown Grad Listserv , Bronwen Tate , Caroline Whitbeck , Kate Schapira , Lynn Xu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While many of you will have heard of Myung Mi Kim, Lynn Xu is the amazing, soon-to-be-discovered Poet-of-the-Golden-Voice and everyone who can should come out to be entranced (and everyone who comes out will be entranced). Please spread the word! Please come-- Because every touch contains a past it can no longer name. Where the other is part and then the whole of that part became an organ, became electric and bloodless. Because we were bored and the music was not enough. Because it is burning and the lake is shy in front of the cool one. The really, really cool one. (from June, by Lynn Xu) ____________________________________________________ Poetry Reading featuring Myung Mi Kim & Lynn Xu Amherst Books 8 Main St Amherst, MA01002 413.256.1547 800.503.5865 Saturday May 6th 8pm Hosted by Corollary Press Myung Mi Kim’s books of poems include Commons (University of California Press), DURA (Sun & Moon), The Bounty (Chax Press), and Under Flag, winner of the Multicultural Publisher’s Exchange Award (Kelsey St. Press). Anthology appearances in Asian-American Literature: An Anthology, Moving Borders: Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women, Premonitions: The Kaya Anthology of New Asian North American Poetry, Primary Trouble: An Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry and other collections. Honors include a residency at Djerassi Resident Artists Program and awards from The Fund for Poetry. She is Professor of English at SUNY-Buffalo. Lynn Xu was born in Shanghai. She is a graduate fellow at Brown's MFA program. Her poems were selected by Anne Carson as the winner of the 2006 Greg Grummer Contest: "these have the passionate compression and quick syntactic spring of a John Donne lyric . . . [but] the way these disintegrate gently into an imprecision which is sort of raw, but even more thoughtful" (Carson). In the summer Lynn wishes to move away from Providence and closer to water. This will likely not happen. Her poems are forthcoming in The Canary and Phoebe. Her first chapbook, June, is out on Corollary Press. Michael Tod Edgerton Poet-in-Residence, Spring 2006 Stonehill College --- Peter Kaplan Memorial Fellow, Program in Literary Arts Brown University Rebuild New Orleans / Bulldozer Bush --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:03:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deborah Fries Subject: Re: Bukowski - Barfly Redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of Bukowski, please see the announcelment below: Barfly Redux - A two-act play loosely inspired by the Barbet Schroeder movie, Barfly, concerning the life and loves of Charles Bukowski. Written and directed by Tsaurah Litzky. Produced by Chinaski Productions Special Limited Engagement at FusionArts Museum 57 Stanton Street between Forsyth and Eldridge Streets NYC 212.995.5290 $6 saturday May 6 @10 pm sunday May 7 @ 8 pm saturday May 20 @10 pm sunday May 21 @ 8 pm saturday May 27 @10 pm sunday May 28 @ 8 pm Deborah Fries Administrator Converging Arts Media Organization/FusionArts Museum Director ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:09:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: A<200605041817.k44IGGx0055540@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re-emphasizing on this note - sometime last year, I watched Sean Penn reflect on a Bukowski poem that leaves him spellbound every time he reads it. This was on CNN or CSPAN(?). -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris Stroffolino Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 2:45 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a refrigerator magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." Charles Bukowski Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy Time Tea ---------- >From: Craig Allen Conrad >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///\\\\///// - + - >Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a couple > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came > to poetry through Bukowski. > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > Conrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Cross Subject: Re: Myung Mi Kim & Lynn Xu read at Amherst Books In-Reply-To: <20060504184935.45128.qmail@web54212.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And in about a month, Atticus/Finch will release Myung Mi Kim's new chapbook _River Antes_, which promises to SLAY. If she reads from this work, your mind will explode! Promise! MC Quoting Michael Tod Edgerton : > While many of you will have heard of Myung Mi Kim, Lynn Xu is the > amazing, soon-to-be-discovered Poet-of-the-Golden-Voice and everyone > who can should come out to be entranced (and everyone who comes out > will be entranced). Please spread the word! Please come-- > > Because every touch contains a past it can no longer name. Where > the other is part and then the whole of that part became an organ, > became electric and bloodless. Because we were bored and the music > was not enough. Because it is burning and the lake is shy in front > of the cool one. The really, really cool one. > > > (from June, by Lynn Xu) > > ____________________________________________________ > > > Poetry > Reading > > featuring > > > Myung Mi Kim > & Lynn Xu > > > Amherst Books > 8 Main St > Amherst, MA01002 > 413.256.1547 800.503.5865 > > Saturday > May 6th > 8pm > > Hosted by Corollary Press > > > > Myung Mi Kim’s > books of poems include Commons (University of California Press), > DURA (Sun & Moon), The Bounty (Chax Press), and Under Flag, winner > of the Multicultural Publisher’s Exchange Award (Kelsey St. Press). > Anthology appearances in Asian-American Literature: An Anthology, > Moving Borders: Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women, > Premonitions: The Kaya Anthology of New Asian North American Poetry, > Primary Trouble: An Anthology of Contemporary American Poetry and > other collections. Honors include a residency at Djerassi Resident > Artists Program and awards from The Fund for Poetry. She is > Professor of English at SUNY-Buffalo. > > > > > Lynn Xu was born in Shanghai. She is a graduate fellow at > Brown's MFA program. Her poems were selected by Anne Carson as the > winner of the 2006 Greg Grummer Contest: "these have the passionate > compression and quick syntactic spring of a John Donne lyric . . . > [but] the way these disintegrate gently into an imprecision which is > sort of raw, but even more thoughtful" (Carson). In the summer Lynn > wishes to move away from Providence and closer to water. This will > likely not happen. Her poems are forthcoming in The Canary and > Phoebe. Her first chapbook, June, is out on Corollary Press. > > > > > > > Michael Tod Edgerton > Poet-in-Residence, Spring 2006 > Stonehill College > --- > Peter Kaplan Memorial Fellow, > Program in Literary Arts > Brown University > > Rebuild New Orleans / Bulldozer Bush > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and > 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060504184418.6445414861@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. The very notion of presenting some words in context to mean more than they would ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context and a writer who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, moving toward the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You cannot have art without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than "Wrong, wrong, wrong!" Marcus On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! > > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an elitist > prank on Literature. > > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at sunset, > sing to my stars for heaven's love" > > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. > > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he was a > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just states > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is appropriate: > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > lead." > > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. > > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. > > /Pastamassima/ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 > > > > > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a > refrigerator > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote > > > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > lead." > > Charles Bukowski > > > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy > Time Tea > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology > /\\///\\\\///// - > > + - > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > > > > > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > > > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a > couple > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who > came > > > to poetry through Bukowski. > > > > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much > his > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not > pleasant, > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > > > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, > his > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in > front > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe > he > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > > > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > > > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > > > Conrad > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, > 2006) > > > for poem samples from the book go to: > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough > to be > > > restrained...." > > > --William Blake > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > > > > > > > Christophe Casamassima > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > -- > ___________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:23:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hsn Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060504184418.6445414861@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi chris m are you saying bukowski wasn't pretentious? grinning, hassen On 5/4/06 2:44 PM, "furniture_ press" wrote: > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! > > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? poetry?" I > think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, language - and it's > place in the world (how it's spoken, what's spoken) then only can we see > literariness (ornament) as an elitist prank on Literature. > > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain brought > splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at sunset, sing to my stars > for heaven's love" > > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. > > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he was a > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just states what we're > all afraid to say. And I think the line is appropriate: > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." > > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. > > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. > > /Pastamassima/ > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Stroffolino" >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski >> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 >> >> >> And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a refrigerator >> magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote >> >> "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." >> Charles Bukowski >> >> Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy Time Tea >> >> >> ---------- >>> From: Craig Allen Conrad >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology >>> /\\///\\\\///// - >> + - >>> Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM >>> >> >>> Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, >>> and they get sick of hearing about class. >>> >>> But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a couple >>> of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came >>> to poetry through Bukowski. >>> >>> He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his >>> poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, >>> but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. >>> >>> What I remember most are the people I have met who have come >>> to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew >>> in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his >>> father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front >>> of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he >>> just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by >>> the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way >>> of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. >>> >>> Bukowski is a door thrown open! >>> >>> Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. >>> Conrad >>> CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >>> for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>> "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >>> restrained...." >>> --William Blake >>> for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>> for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > >> > > > > Christophe Casamassima > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Marcus, that was insightful. Thank you. Now I know what art is. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcus Bales" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 >=20 >=20 > Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. The very not= ion > of presenting some words in context to mean more than they would > ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context and a writ= er > who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, moving toward > the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You cannot hav= e art > without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than "Wrong, w= rong, > wrong!" >=20 > Marcus >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: >=20 > > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! But this begs the question: is there a "= working class language? > > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, > > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's > > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an elitist > > prank on Literature. C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the = summer rain > > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at sunset, > > sing to my stars for heaven's love" > > > > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. > > > > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he was a > > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just states > > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is appropriate: > > > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > > lead." > > > > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. > > > > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. > > > > /Pastamassima/ > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 > > > > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a > > refrigerator > > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote > > > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > > lead." > > > Charles Bukowski > > > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy > > Time Tea > > > > > ---------- > > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology /\\///= \\\\///// - > > > + - > > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > > > > > > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > > > > > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a cou= ple > > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who > > came > > > > to poetry through Bukowski. > > > > > > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much > > his > > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not > > pleasant, > > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > > > > > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, > > his > > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in > > front > > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he > > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > > > > > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > > > > > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > > > > Conrad > > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, > > 2006) > > > > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.co= m_ > > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough > > to be > > > > restrained...." > > > > --William Blake > > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christophe Casamassima > > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > > > > -- ___________________________________________ > > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > > > > Powered By Outblaze > Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:47:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: buk & working class poetry In-Reply-To: <00b201c66fae$3887bbd0$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable here in LA, where Buk lived for a time, there is a core group of = acolytes, former wives, and girlfriends, though not too many of his postal worker colleagues, and many of these folks are if not working class (many = having no day jobs or not blue collar day jobs) in pursuit of the Beat or of the working class literati there is a separate group of punk / post-punk writers and artists, and = many of them are from working class backgrounds; some of them are still = working artists, not owning homes, having insurance or stable family situations, = and living gig to gig, some of them are incredibly wealthy poets now during my high school and college years, there was always a set of = "literary young men" who found Buk, the male Beats, alcohol, and misogyny all at = the same confusing time they seem to have been afraid that being a poet = wasn't butch enough but I think in this discussion, these groups are getting exchanged for = one another All best, Catherine Daly =20 also, I cannot imagine attending, let alone writing, a play based on a = movie written by a poet for cash; I could rant, but the core of my response = is: =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:55:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <445A1A39.18562.458C514@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Marcus, Do you mean to say that the poor & working class kids in my East Oakland neighborhood are incapable of sharing and articipating in art because they haven't been taught to appreciate the elitist mystification process that John Berger tried to dispell 35 years ago? David Harrison Horton ----Original Message Follows---- From: Marcus Bales Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. The very notion of presenting some words in context to mean more than they would ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context and a writer who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, moving toward the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You cannot have art without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than "Wrong, wrong, wrong!" Marcus On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! > > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an elitist > prank on Literature. > > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at sunset, > sing to my stars for heaven's love" > > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. > > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he was a > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just states > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is appropriate: > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > lead." > > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. > > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. > > /Pastamassima/ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 > > > > > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a > refrigerator > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote > > > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > lead." > > Charles Bukowski > > > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy > Time Tea > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology > /\\///\\\\///// - > > + - > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > > > > > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > > > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a > couple > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who > came > > > to poetry through Bukowski. > > > > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much > his > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not > pleasant, > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > > > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, > his > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in > front > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe > he > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > > > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > > > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > > > Conrad > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, > 2006) > > > for poem samples from the book go to: > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough > to be > > > restrained...." > > > --William Blake > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > > > > > > > Christophe Casamassima > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > -- > ___________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 17:39:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 5/8 - 5/15 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Please join us this week for readings and the 5-day long Poet=B9s Theatre Festival. Love, The Poetry Project Monday, May 8, 8:00pm Open Reading=20 =20 Sign up at 7:45. Wednesday, May 10, 8:00pm Brian Evenson & Ted Pelton =20 Brian Evenson is the author of seven books of fiction, most recently The Wavering Knife, and s the translator of works by Jean Fremon, Jacques Dupin, and others. He is the recipient of an International Horror Guild Award, an NEA Fellowship, and an O. Henry Prize. =A0He is the Director of th= e Literary Arts Program at Brown University. Ted Pelton is the author of thre= e books -- a novel, Malcolm & Jack (and Other Famous American Criminals); stories, Endorsed by Jack Chapeau 2 to an even greater extent; and a novella, Bhang. He founded the fiction press Starcherone Books (pronounced "start-yer-own") and continues to be its Director. He lives in Buffalo, NY. May 11 =AD May 15, times vary Plays On Words: A Poet=B9s Theatre Festival =20 Co-produced by the Ontological-Hysteric Theater and The Poetry Project. Co-curated by Lee Ann Brown, Corina Copp and Tony Torn. The festival will feature small performances and staged readings of plays written across the genres, by poets and playwrights of great and emerging renown. Events will take place in the Ontological from Thursday through Sunday, (with satellite programming at the Bowery Poetry Club), and a culminating Monday program in the Parish Hall. Performance and verse will collide, as the Poetry Project and Richard Foreman's Ontological-Hysteric Theater finally collaborate. THURSDAY May 11th: Micro-Plays by poet + theater allstars INCLUDING Charles Bernstein, Anselm Berrigan, Kelly Copper, Francesco Canguillo, Nada Gordon, May Jospehs, Dana Maisel, Tom Raworth, Anne Waldman= , Catherine Wing + many more! + opening night PARTY! 10:30 PM @ Bowery Poetry Club featuring Tuli Kupferberg's =B3Drinking Songs for Karl Marx=B2 FRIDAY May 12th: Plays written by Charles Borkhuis, Brian Kim Stefens, David Henderson 7 pm @ the Ontological Theater SATURDAY May 13th: Plays written by Laynie Browne, Julie Patton, Carla Harryman 7 pm @ the Ontological Theater SUNDAY May 14th: Plays written by Kevin Killian & Dodie Bellamy, Bob Holman & Bob Rosenthal 7 pm @ the Ontological Theater MONDAY May 15th: Plays by Reed Bye, Corina Copp, Rachel Levitsky, Chris Stroffolino, Genya Turovskaya, Rodrigo Toscano, Jacqueline Waters 8 pm in the St. Mark's Church Parish Hall TICKETS: $7 per performance or $20 for festival pass. Opening night party @ BPC (308 Bowery) FREE for tickets: www.ontological.com or 212.352.3101 (theatermania) no additional fee Spring Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:18:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: A Lantern Pony In-Reply-To: <1146708971.445963eb8ea47@mail1.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Would some one please back channel further information on A Lantern Pony. It would be sincerely appreciated. --XY --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:29:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: buk & working class poetry In-Reply-To: <000501c66fbb$ef5ffa90$6701a8c0@KASIA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Returning is India, Tibetan plan being about 6 weeks, doing some editing work and writing. Would appreciate any backchannel on those interested in showcasing a unique perspective on life, in their words. Nonpolitical, but interested in sharing stories and really relevant ways of creative expression of the personal. Who knows if Yahoo'll fuck me, but think this is important.Your time will be appreciated. --AlexJ. --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 23:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Joris & Rothenberg at People's Poetry Gathering Comments: cc: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics , Lucifer Poetics Group Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SATURDAY May Sixth THE FOURTH PEOPLE'S POETRY GATHERING Sponsored by City Lore and the Bowery Poetry Club in collaboration =20 with the Division of Continuing Education & Public Programs, The Graduate =20 Center, CUNY POETRY BASH CUNY Graduate Center 365 5th Avenue (at 34th St.) 212/817-8215 Subway: B, D, F, V, Q, W, N, R to 34th St/Herald Square. 3:30- 4:30pm DISTANT LANGUAGES, REAL AND IMAGINED =97> Break Out Room 5 <=97 Pierre Joris and Jerome Rothenberg will engage in a big time =20 presentation/performance of the many ways in which poets & artists =20 have drawn from distant languages & traditions or have invented or =20 pretended to invent new languages so as to escape the tyranny of the =20 old. Along with their own performance of a range of poetic & =20 ethnopoetic works, there will be a mining of audio & visual archives, =20= to bring into the mix the actual voices & visions of artists such as =20 Schwitters, Artaud, Schwerner, Cobbing, Chopin, & assorted =20 glossolaliacs & chanters from the centers & margins of our world. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Lyric poetry has to be exorbitant or not at all." -- Gottfried Benn =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 20:16:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Lincoln Center, Healthcare Forum & Peoples Poetry Gathering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends: three big events this weekend. First, Rattapallax is publishing "Insights into Syrian Cinema; Essays and Conversations with Contemporary Filmmakers" in conjunction with "Lens on Syria" film series at Lincoln Center. Which showcases over 30 Syrian feature films, documentaries and shorts, many subtitled in English and screening for the first time in the US. The series has already been scheduled to travel to The Gene Siskel Film Center in Chicago; The Canadian Film Institute in Ottawa; The Pacific Cinematheque in Vancouver; The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston; The Pacific Film Archives in Berkley (organized in collaboration with The San Francisco Arab Film Festival); The Georgetown University in Washington, DC; and The Northwest Film Center in Portland, Oregon. Book / $15 / http://www.rattapallax.com/aic_syria.htm ------------ Congressional Hearing with Congressman Conyers on Healthcare for all. May 6, 2006, 10 am - 5pm, at Borough Hall, 209 Joralemon St., Brooklyn. Joining him will be New York City Councilmember Charles Barron. Members of the Creative Community from all disciplines of the arts have joined forces to organize a Citizens/Congressional Hearing on Healthcare for Artists. Sponsored by Rattapallax. Free. http://www.rattapallax.com/actart.htm ---------- THE FOURTH PEOPLE'S POETRY GATHERING Poems from the World's Endangered and Contested Languages read and performed in their Mother Tongues and English (May 3rd to 7th, 2006), NYC Keynote by poet Robert Bly reading from his translations and poems on Wednesday, May 3rd at CUNY. It continues on Friday afternoon with a free program open to the public at the United Nations featuring a delegations from around the world in a tribute to poetic traditions that are increasingly threatened in our globalized society. That night the Irish band, Black 47, will rock the Bowery Poetry Club with Celtic poets and musicians as part of the "Harpsong" program. The program continues on Saturday, May 6th, with a day-long Poetry Bash at the CUNY Grad Center, 365 5th Ave (at 34-35th Sts) presenting Belfast performance poet Gearóid MacLochlainn, award-winning Scottish traditional band Cliar, and Wales' National Poet Gwyneth Lewis. Artists working indigenous languages from the USA, Asia, and Australia are also featured such as Alaskan Tlingit poet Nora Marks Dauenhauer. Also featured are Sekou Sundiata, Galway Kinnell, Suheir Hammad, Sapphire, Jerome Rothenberg, and many others. Rattapallax magazine is the official journal of the festival featuring a huge section on endangered languages in the book and on the CD. More information and listing of the full schedule at http://www.peoplespoetry.org Cheers Ram Devineni Publisher Rattapallax Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 23:43:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Kathy Acker Reading: 5/5 NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Please join Verso, Serpent's Tail and Cake Shop in celebrating the release >of two new publications by and about Kathy Acker. > >WHAT: Readings from Lust for Life: On the Writings of Kathy Acker and >Bodies of Work: Essays by Kathy Acker > >WHO: Featuring Kathleen Hanna, Phiiliip, Bec Stupak, Nayland Blake, Carla >Harryman and Avital Ronell > >WHEN: May 5, 2006 6 pm to 7:30 pm > >WHERE: Cake Shop, 152 Ludlow Street, Between Stanton and Rivington >Streets, NYC > >CONTACT: Cake Shop: (212) 253-0036, Verso: (212) 807-9680 > >ADDITIONAL INFO: Event is free and open to the public. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 21:54:01 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 3 May 2006 to 4 May 2006 (#2006-125) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Buk used to frequent a bar down the street from where I lived in Philadelphia, and sometimes I think that many of us became poets through that specific connection, through that drink based dais. Even you Kevin, would have, had you the alacrity of surroundings when living elsewhere. How about you Conrad, are you in the experience of what I talk of? You are presupposed to be the Philly poet these days along with a scant number of others. What say thou? By the way, an apology would be nice, CA, for that nonsense a while back. Public is best and appreciated in all smiles. I suppose many fault Buk for the working class thing but it opened up many avenues for poets I know, even Billy Collins. I well remember reading with him a number of years back through a journal called West Branch; in fact we were all West Branch Poets, under the auspice of Karl Patten, many of whom are nationally known beyond me and Collins like Jim Daniels, Charles Rafferty, Colette Inez, Naton Leslie, Sandra Argricola, and were it not for Buk paving the way with Crucifix in a Death hand, there are many poets I know who would not be on the writing tract or on the mag submission route so I find that worthy, that his typer did that to so many, let alone, according to John Martin, allowed me to enjoy Reznikoff, Bromige and so many others. Today, I think in many ways that the reason our Pavement Saw book by Tony Gloeggler made it into a second run of 1000 this year is the influence that Buk had on the poetry reading audience, I mean except for Allen Ginsberg and Kenneth Patchen, who else lead international audiences so directly into this realm of an understandable and universal "working class" vernacular? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 08:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 4 May 2006 at 14:55, David Harrison Horton wrote: > Marcus, > Do you mean to say that the poor & working class kids in my East > Oakland > neighborhood are incapable of sharing and articipating in art > because they > haven't been taught to appreciate the elitist mystification process > that > John Berger tried to dispell 35 years ago? Not in the least. I mean to say that they are capable of sharing and anticipating in art if someone shows them how to -- if someone initiates them into the elite. I'm glad to hear you're doing that. In the case where there is someone like you there to do it, your kids are not intellectually poverty-stricken -- but think of all the kids who ARE intellectually poverty- stricken because there is no one like you there to initiate them. THEY are incapable of sharing and anticipating art (except in the most amazing cases of auto-didacticism) not because they are dumb but because they are poor. But to deny that it IS an elite into which you're initiating them is not merely counter-productive, it's intellectually dishonest. You're fooling yourself into thinking that poetry is a thing independent of its creation and appreciation by people. It's not. Poetry is an artefact of human invention, not a thing that would exist if there were no people, like gravity or rocks or Keith Richard. The writing and appreciation of poetry is indeed an elite occupation. What makes it less likely that poor kids or blue-collar kids will write or appreciate it is a lack of people like you to initiate them. And you, I'm sure, have to admit that even out of the kids who take the class not all of them actually get it; and of those who get it not all of them become poets. It's an elitism of choice, and good on you for giving them one. Marcus > > David Harrison Horton > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Marcus Bales > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 > > Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. The > very notion > of presenting some words in context to mean more than they would > ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context and a > writer > who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, moving > toward > the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You > cannot have > art > without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than > "Wrong, > wrong, > wrong!" > > Marcus > > > > > On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: > > > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! > > > > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? > > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that > is, > > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's > > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an > elitist > > prank on Literature. > > > > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain > > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at > sunset, > > sing to my stars for heaven's love" > > > > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. > > > > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he > was a > > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just > states > > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is > appropriate: > > > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they > must > > lead." > > > > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. > > > > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. > > > > /Pastamassima/ > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 > > > > > > > > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a > > refrigerator > > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote > > > > > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they > must > > lead." > > > Charles Bukowski > > > > > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or > Sleepy > > Time Tea > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY > anthology > > /\\///\\\\///// - > > > + - > > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about > Bukowski, > > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. > > > > > > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men > (a > > couple > > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) > who > > came > > > > to poetry through Bukowski. > > > > > > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how > much > > his > > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not > > pleasant, > > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > > > > > > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have > come > > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a > factory, > > his > > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up > in > > front > > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or > maybe > > he > > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED > by > > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > > > > > > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > > > > > > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be > true. > > > > Conrad > > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull > Press, > > 2006) > > > > for poem samples from the book go to: > > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak > enough > > to be > > > > restrained...." > > > > --William Blake > > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: > _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ > > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christophe Casamassima > > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > > > > -- > > ___________________________________________ > > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > > > > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:21:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City 33 Available Today Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward --------------- Boog City 33 Available featuring: ***Our Music section, edited by Jonathan Berger*** "The question remains, does Chris deserve to be locked up? The answer is =8A maybe. He=B9s been convicted of harassing with threatening language a bunch o= f folks, including journalists and people from City Hall. While he=B9s never actually followed through on any of the threats, it=B9s hard to argue that hi= s language wasn=B9t threatening." --from The Incredibly Strange Saga of Christopher X. Brodeur by Brian Homa "There=B9s much more to this new release than Schwervon! has ever previously delivered." --from What You Should See: Schwervon! New CD Party ***Our Printed Matter section, edited by Mark Lamoureux*** "As the reader steps into the role of co-creator, she carves her own paths of meaning, collecting bits of language and assembling them into images of story." --Ellen Baxt on Jessica Smith's Organic Furniture Cellar (Outside Voices) "Inoperableness is a recurring idea in this collection, as is invention, or as he puts it here, =8Cmakeover.=B9" --John Mulrooney on Michael Carr's Platinum Blonde (Fewer & Further Press) ***Our Features section, now edited by Stephen Dignan*** "'My humor can be very dark. It=B9s almost coiled around most of my thoughts. I don't consciously employ humor as a device, but often it comes through as a way to service one of the characters.'" --from On and On She Goes Miss Amanda Stern: Novelist, Curator Gets Serious by Dignan ***Our Politics section, edited by Deanna Zandt*** "A dozen years ago, the oil companies howled that a carbon tax would bring the economy to a halt by raising the cost of gasoline by seven cents." --from Warmed-over Issues: Two Years Later, What=B9s the Most Important Issue in the Election, Again by New York State Green Party Co-Chair Ian S. Wilder ***Our Poetry section, edited for the first time by Laura Elrick and Rodrigo Toscano*** --Lefferts Garden, Brooklyn's Renee Gladman with an untitled piece awaiting to meet the depicted as if the impulse=8Bto see=8B --Chelsea's Bob Perelman with Liquid Assets You understand the meanings of these words are beyond our control Troops part of holiday scene as primal anxiety parts waves, paints them red Money lines appear in scene after scene Money shots for the unrehearsed amateurs undressing in the unrehabbed warehouses where the plugs are full-service --Williamsburg, Brooklyn's Chris Alexander with Scary Ghost Stories I Didn=B9t Make Up I=B9m sure everyone=B9s seen the movie of the monkey that sits in a zoo, on a branch. Then touches his ass, smells it, and falls down / faints! But what I really want to see is number 5=B9s movie! That is so awesome. ***Art editor Brenda Iijima brings us work from Bushwick, Brooklyn's Sean McCarthy.*** And photos from Martin H=E4gglund, Andy Nunn, and Steve Wiley. ----- And thanks to our copy editor, Joe Bates. ----- Please patronize our advertisers: Bowery Poetry Club * www.bowerypoetry.com Olive Juice Music * www.olivejuicemusic.com Plays on Words: A Poets + Theater Festival * www.ontological.com Study Abroad on the Bowery * www.boweryartsandscience.org ----- Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-BOOG (2664) ----- 2,000 copies of Boog City are distributed among, and available for free at, the following locations: EAST VILLAGE Acme Underground =20 Alt.coffee =20 Angelika Film Center and Caf=E9 Anthology Film Archives Bluestockings =20 Bowery Poetry Club=20 Caf=E9 Pick Me Up =20 CB=B9s 313 Gallery =20 CBGB=B9s=20 Continental =20 Lakeside Lounge =20 Life Caf=E9 =20 Living Room =20 Mission Caf=E9 =20 Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 Pianos =20 The Pink Pony =20 St. Mark=B9s Books =20 St. Mark=B9s Church =20 Shakespeare & Co. =20 Sidewalk Caf=E9 =20 Sunshine Theater =20 Tonic =20 Trash and Vaudeville =20 OTHER PARTS OF MANHATTAN Hotel Chelsea Poets House WILLIAMSBURG Bliss Caf=E9 Clovis Press =20 Earwax =20 Galapagos =20 Northsix =20 Sideshow Gallery =20 Soundfix/Fix Cafe=20 Supercore Caf=E9 =20 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 07:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: <20060505045401.58770.qmail@web82213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Schadenfreude If pushing a wing through an eggshell were easier, not entirely more daunting say cases of living, thousands of daisy cutters, 1000 lb/in², “might-ah led one to meadows” , however miniscule, of quiet. But looking on long enough, one becomes: drowsy, in reeling, anemic, relative to naught.-- And so what’s tossing a coin from this 7th floor overlook? It drops, plinks, almost soundless. --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:31:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: <20060505045401.58770.qmail@web82213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems to me the whole 60s Cleveland scene with d.a. levy, kryss, wagner, & rjs was a great example of a working class poetry that even managed to throw in a bit of the avant... On May 4, 2006, at 11:54 PM, David Baratier wrote: > Buk used to frequent a bar > > I suppose many fault Buk > were it not for Buk > the influence that Buk had > directly into this realm of an understandable and universal > "working class" vernacular? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:39:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Schadenfreude In-Reply-To: <20060505142143.49894.qmail@web54412.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sigmund Schadenfreude ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:46:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Press Subject: MAY 10 - Book Release Party - Jenny Boully's [one love affair]* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks in the NYC area on May 10, Please come and hear Jenny Boully read from her new book, [one love affair]*, just out from Tarpaulin Sky Press. We'll be mingling from 6:30-7PM. The reading begins at 7 and will be followed by a book signing. Details follow. We hope to see you there. --Christian & Co. BOOK RELEASE PARTY/READING Jenny Boully's new book, [one love affair]* from Tarpaulin Sky Press http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Boully/index.html MAY 10 6:30--to 8:30 (reading begins at 7pm and is followed by a book-signing) Faculty Lounge, Hunter College 8th floor, West building 68th Street & Lexington Ave (the southwest corner--main entrance with the revolving doors & a lobby) Nearest train: #6 to 68th St/Hunter College http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/READINGS/index.html [one love affair]* by Jenny Boully ISBN 0-9779019-0-4 5x7, perfect-bound, 76 pages. $12 List $11 (w/free shipping) from Tarpaulin Sky Press (also available in a limited, hand-bound edition) http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/index.html [one love affair]* meditates on mud daubers, Duras, and the deaths of mentally ill and drug-addicted lovers, blurring fiction, essay, and memoir in an extended prose poem that is as much a study of how we read as it is a treatise on the language of love affairs: a language of hidden messages, coded words, cryptic gestures, and suspicion. As with Jenny Boully's debut book The Body (Slope Editions, 2002), [one love affair]* is full of gaps and fissures and "seduces its reader by drawing unexpected but felicitous linkages between disparate citations from the history of literature," a work that is "filled with the exegetical projection of our own imagination" (Christian Bok, Maisonneuve). Told through fragments that accrete through uncertain meanings, romanticized memories, and fleeting moments rather than clear narrative or linear time, [one love affair]* explores the spaces between too much and barely enough, fecundity and decay, the sublime and the disgusting, wholeness and emptiness, love and loneliness in a world where life can be interpreted as a series of love affairs that are "unwilling to complete." Jenny Boully is the author of The Body (Slope Editions, 2002). Her work has been anthologized in The Best American Poetry 2002, Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present, and The Next American Essay and has appeared in Boston Review, Seneca Review, Tarpaulin Sky, Coconut, and Conjunctions. Her Book of Beginnings and Endings is forthcoming from Sarabande. Born in Thailand and reared in Texas, she has studied at Hollins University and the University of Notre Dame and is pursuing a Ph.D. at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. She divides her time between Brooklyn and a small town in Texas. *A million wallowing anemones, a thousand eyes peeping through, a thousand spies shivering, unnamable endless flowerings, countless empty bottles, twelve flowers, eleven trees, eight fruits, four vegetables, four peppers, two enemas, two kidnappings, one accident, one suicide, one soothsayer, one drowning, one nightclub called Juicy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:53:24 -0400 Reply-To: Lea Graham Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lea Graham Subject: conferences for young writers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I'm looking for writing conferences for some of my students who are = either college juniors/seniors next fall or are graduates this May. The = RISD summer program just seems to be for high school students. Does anyone out there know of anything? It would be preferable to find = them out on the East Coast, but I'd be interested in knowing of anything = operating around the country. Cheers, Lea ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:18:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: <12089283-52AF-4DB9-AA66-E897ED0D4766@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline this is switching gears, mIEKAL, to a degree, but to continue: [i think that] working class artists generally can afford to be more experimental (incorporating the history of the avant, etc) as they have les= s to lose On 5/5/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > Seems to me the whole 60s Cleveland scene with d.a. levy, kryss, > wagner, & rjs was a great example of a working class poetry that > even managed to throw in a bit of the avant... > > > On May 4, 2006, at 11:54 PM, David Baratier wrote: > > > Buk used to frequent a bar > > > > I suppose many fault Buk > > > were it not for Buk > > > the influence that Buk had > > > directly into this realm of an understandable and universal > > "working class" vernacular? > > > -- When hot fluid strikes hotter exhaust manifolds, the risk of fire is serious. But when hot fluid hits someone in the face, it can be even more severe. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 10:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: <12089283-52AF-4DB9-AA66-E897ED0D4766@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Charles Olson wrote & spoke of "a stance towards reality"--and the great many kids I know who read Bukowksi, the Beats and Rimbaud for poetry--it's the stance in part that attracts them--anti-authoritarian--and also remanants of the Roamantic idea of the writer as hero combined with later idea of the anti-hero--the two at same time--"be director of your own movies made in Heaven" Kerouac wrote--you can be confessional but hard core--sex drugs and rock'n'roll--and re a "working class vernacular" Bukowski writes often of emulating "Hem" and "Dost"--again a heroic idea of the Writer--even in the worst and ugliest circumstances, the writer seeing truths and writing them as they are--is a form of heroism even in anti-heroic situations--a rebellion--a stance towards reality--vernacular is infused with an intenisty that raises it to another level--(Villon, Celine) in the 1930's you find a very great deal of "proletarian poetry" and novels--a Writer like Bukowksi doesn't model himself on these--but the "greats" like Hem and Dost--like any writer a drive for literay fame and greatness-- Bukowski, the Beats, Rimbaud--all use forms of excess to go after truths they think to find--"the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"--a Romantic idea--the altering of senses etc--in the hopes this will also alter language and the ways in which it is used, to give it increased powers--to change the self & world--there is a great attraction in this in part because it isn't necessarily tied down to a poltical doctrine, a rigidity--but is (esp with Bukowski!--& Kerouac-) more fluid-- the stance towards reality is a great energy source to tap into for writing--and appeal of Bukowski, Beats, Rimbaud to many i know is this--(i'm talking abut pretty much all working class kids--and for Bukowski pretty much all males--) "What is not in the open street is false, derived that is to say literature."--Henry Miller. "The 14th Ward" in BLACK SPRING >From: mIEKAL aND >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: working class poesy >Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:31:11 -0500 > >Seems to me the whole 60s Cleveland scene with d.a. levy, kryss, wagner, >& rjs was a great example of a working class poetry that even managed to >throw in a bit of the avant... > > >On May 4, 2006, at 11:54 PM, David Baratier wrote: > >>Buk used to frequent a bar >> >> I suppose many fault Buk > >>were it not for Buk > >>the influence that Buk had > >>directly into this realm of an understandable and universal "working >>class" vernacular? >> _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:08:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: PEN USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For the silent auction at this year's Forbidden Fruit, we will be = featuring literary "naming rights" auction items: chances for attendees to bid on = the right to have their name or a name of their choosing used in a writer's = next novel or screenplay. This idea was first implemented as a fundraiser by = The First Amendment Project as an eBay item and quickly became the "most watched" auction on the site. The right to be named after a fictional character holds a strong appeal for many because in addition to being = such a unique item, it is also priceless. For more information about the = success of auctioning literary naming rights, please visit: http://ap.tbo.com/ap/florida/MGB4YWBASDE.html=20 PEN USA is requesting donations of naming rights opportunities from its membership to be auctioned in the Forbidden Fruit silent auction. A = winning bidder of a naming rights auction item can expect anything from a = fictional character that shares their name and likeness to a science fiction / = fantasy planet that is their namesake; the choice of specific naming rights parameters is determined by what each writer is willing and able to incorporate into their work. By donating a naming right opportunity in = your next novel or screenplay, you will be contributing to PEN USA's ability = to continue its work to protect the first amendment, fight censorship, and support the development of a diverse literary community.=20 Adam Somers=20 Executive Director, PEN USA c/o Antioch University 400 Corporate Pointe Culver City, CA 90230 Tel. 310-862-1555=20 http://www.penusa.org =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:19:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Stance Toward Reality In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > Charles Olson wrote & spoke of "a stance towards reality"--and the > great many kids I know who read Bukowksi, the Beats and Rimbaud for > poetry--it's the stance in part that attracts > them--anti-authoritarian--and also remanants of the Roamantic idea of > the writer as hero combined with later idea of the anti-hero--the two > at same time--"be director of your own movies made in Heaven" Kerouac > wrote--you can be confessional but hard core--sex drugs and > rock'n'roll--and re a "working class vernacular" ... the stance > towards reality is a great energy source to tap into for writing--and > appeal of Bukowski, Beats, Rimbaud to many i know is this--(i'm > talking abut pretty much all working class kids--and for Bukowski > pretty much all males--) > "What is not in the open street is false, derived that is to > say literature."--Henry Miller. "The 14th Ward" in BLACK SPRING Excellent thoughts David. Let's also understand Olson's stance is rooted in a Whiteheadian cosmology, a paradigm shift of seismic proportions, shifting from the Newtonian/Cartesian ethos of control, competition and reductionism, to one of Holism, Partnership and Interconnectedness. Shahar Bram's book on this source is critical for anyone wanting a deep understanding of that: http://www.bucknell.edu/News_Events/Publications/University_Press/Books/Additional_Titles/Charles_Olson_and_A._N._Whitehead.html I have writtten on this subject recently, at: http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/Dualism_and_Olsonian.htm http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/The_Sound_of_the_Field_(1.19.06).htm & http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/Semester_3_Annotated_Bibliography.htm - specifically on my thoughts regarding the Bram book. I have studied this paradigm shift before studying Olson and did interviews with Rupert Sheldrake, Father Matthew Fox, Jean Houston, Dr. Larry Dossey and others who shed light on this critical change in the Western Stance toward reality. I think children REALLY get the change and I believe poetry written from this stance is something that resonates more deeply with them, but academies tend to be out of the Newtonian model and without a strong sense of individuation, young people will often cave under the pressures of outside validation. Thanks for opening this door David. Paul Slaughter, WA -- Paul E. Nelson www.GlobalVoicesRadio.org www.AuburnCommunityRadio.com www.SPLAB.org 110 2nd Street S.W. #100 Slaughter, WA 98001 253.735.6328 toll-free 888.735.6328 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:35:19 -0400 Reply-To: stephen@poetshouse.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Motika Organization: Poets House Subject: Two Great Poetry Courses Starting at Poets House, NYC, next week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All: There is limited room still available in these exciting poetry = workshops. Register today by calling 212-431-7920 or emailing = stephen@poetshouse.org. Surfacing History: A Poetry and Graphic Arts Workshop Instructor: Jill Magi=20 Tuesdays, 7-9:30pm, May 9-June 13=20 $240, Space is limited=20 Call 212-431-7920 to register=20 Participants in this class will create a series of "graphic = poems"--layered surfaces of documents, pages from old books, our own writings, and = pieces of everyday text. We'll start with investigative writing, researching = events and landscapes at the intersection of civic and personal history, = fashioning poems and prose from what we find. Then, by collaging, soaking, = wrinkling, writing, mark-making, and photocopying, our pages will gather the signs = of wear and tear, the look of history. Writers and artists we'll study = include Susan Howe, Theresa Hak Kyung Cha, Tom Phillips, Mary Kelly, Anselm = Kiefer, Eugenio Dittborn. No drawing experience is required; no purchase of materials required.=20 Jill Magi, writer and visual artist, is the author of Threads, a hybrid = work of text and images forthcoming in 2006 from Futurepoem Books, and the chapbook Cadastral Map, published by Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs. She teaches at The City College/CUNY Center for Worker Education.=20 The Moving Image: Poetry and Film=20 Instructor: Eric Gamalinda=20 Thursdays, 7-9:30pm, May 11-June 15=20 $240, Space is limited=20 Call 212-431-7920 to register Art, wrote filmmaker Andrey Tarkovsky, is a means of assimilating the = world, an instrument for knowing it in the course of one's journey toward = =93absolute truth.=94 This workshop uses film to inspire and generate poems, seeking = what some filmmakers call the =93authentic,=94 bearing in mind that, as = Tarkovsky said, =93the indisputably functional role of art lies in the idea of = knowing, where the effect is expressed as shock, as catharsis.=94 Using films by = recent and contemporary auteurs, exercises using imagery, ideas, emotions, and other elements from the films, and selected readings, the poet will tap = into his or her infinite capacity for =93knowing,=94 and view the world = through its lens. Eric Gamalinda is the author of Zero Gravity, winner of the Asian = American Literary Award in 2000. In 2003 he won the Cultural Center of the Philippines Independent Film and Video award for two experimental films. = He teaches at New York University and Columbia University. A new collection = of poems, Amigo Warfare, is forthcoming in 2007.=20 =A0 Courses meet at Poets House, 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, NYC. Info: www.poetshouse.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I'm not really sure what characteristics makes a working class poet. For instance it's only in the last 5 years of my life that I've made enough money to economically belong to the working class, but one of my assumptions is a working class poet is writing to be read by other inhabitants of the working class.... which would seem to exclude a lot of the post-modern repertoire. Here in southwest WI, in the land of deep forests & organic dairy, a working class poet would be someone like Garrison Keillor, and it wouldn't get much more racy than that. ~mIEKAL On May 5, 2006, at 10:18 AM, kevin thurston wrote: > this is switching gears, mIEKAL, to a degree, but to continue: > > [i think that] working class artists generally can afford to be more > experimental (incorporating the history of the avant, etc) as they > have less > to lose > > On 5/5/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >> Seems to me the whole 60s Cleveland scene with d.a. levy, kryss, >> wagner, & rjs was a great example of a working class poetry that >> even managed to throw in a bit of the avant... >> >> >> On May 4, 2006, at 11:54 PM, David Baratier wrote: >> >> > Buk used to frequent a bar >> > >> > I suppose many fault Buk >> >> > were it not for Buk >> >> > the influence that Buk had >> >> > directly into this realm of an understandable and universal >> > "working class" vernacular? >> > There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good teacher. --Flannery O'Connor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:23:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: <2F52F28A-4323-43D4-8ECF-4123E99ED14B@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline my assumptions is a working class poet is writing to be read by other inhabitants of the working class.... which would seem to exclude a lot of the post-modern repertoire. but then you are making an argument that a poet/artist/what-have-you has control over their audience. (who is reading them) or am i missing something? On 5/5/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > I'm not really sure what characteristics makes a working class poet. > For instance it's only in the last 5 years of my life that I've made > enough money to economically belong to the working class, but one of > my assumptions is a working class poet is writing to be read by other > inhabitants of the working class.... which would seem to exclude a > lot of the post-modern repertoire. Here in southwest WI, in the land > of deep forests & organic dairy, a working class poet would be > someone like Garrison Keillor, and it wouldn't get much more racy > than that. > > > > ~mIEKAL > > > On May 5, 2006, at 10:18 AM, kevin thurston wrote: > > > this is switching gears, mIEKAL, to a degree, but to continue: > > > > [i think that] working class artists generally can afford to be more > > experimental (incorporating the history of the avant, etc) as they > > have less > > to lose > > > > On 5/5/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >> > >> Seems to me the whole 60s Cleveland scene with d.a. levy, kryss, > >> wagner, & rjs was a great example of a working class poetry that > >> even managed to throw in a bit of the avant... > >> > >> > >> On May 4, 2006, at 11:54 PM, David Baratier wrote: > >> > >> > Buk used to frequent a bar > >> > > >> > I suppose many fault Buk > >> > >> > were it not for Buk > >> > >> > the influence that Buk had > >> > >> > directly into this realm of an understandable and universal > >> > "working class" vernacular? > >> > > > > There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good > teacher. > --Flannery O'Connor > -- When hot fluid strikes hotter exhaust manifolds, the risk of fire is serious. But when hot fluid hits someone in the face, it can be even more severe. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:43:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Long Beach Notebook: 5.13.06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please join PALM PRESS=20 for the second installment of LONG BEACH NOTEBOOK Saturday, May 13th at 8 pm=20 on the island of Naples with readings by poets Jen Bervin Jen Hofer India Radfar {}{}{}{}{} JEN BERVIN, poet and visual artist, is the author of a non breaking = space (http://www.uglyducklingpresse.org/clouds/pages/intro.html), Nets = (Ugly Duckling 2004) and Under What Is Not Under (Potes & Poets 2001). = Her work has been published in Aufgabe, Chain, Denver Quarterly, Fell = Swoop, Five Finger Review, How2, Insurance, Poets & Poems (a = collaboration with Alystyre Julian), and Web Conjunctions. Bervin has = received a BFA and a Presidential Merit Scholarship from The School of = the Art Institute of Chicago, an MA in Poetry from the University of = Denver, an Edward M. Lannan Prize from the Academy of American Poets. = She teaches an Advanced Poetry Workshop at NYU, co-curates Pratt's = Friday Forum Reading Series with Brian Blanchfield, and directs the = writing internships for Writing for Publication, Performance and Media = at Pratt Institute. JEN HOFER's recent publications include Sin puertas visibles: An = Anthology of Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women (University of = Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre, 2003), slide rule (subpress, = 2002), and the chapbooks lawless (Seeing Eye Books, 2003) and = sexoPUROsexoVELOZ (translations of poetry by Dolores Dorantes, Seeing = Eye Books, 2004). Her next books will be a full-length translation of = Dorantes' sexoPUROsexoVELOZ, forthcoming from Kenning Editions, a = translation of Laura Sol=F3rzano's lobo de labio, forthcoming from = Action Books, and a book-length series of anti-war-manifesto-poems, = titled one, forthcoming from Palm Press. Her poems and translations can = be found in recent issues of 1913, Bomb, Bombay Gin and Primary Writing. = She lives in Los Angeles, where she teaches poetics, works as a court = interpreter, and is happily a founding member of the City of Angels = Ladies' Bicycle Association, also known as The Whirly Girls. INDIA RADFAR is the author of The Desire to Meet the Beautiful (Tender = Buttons), India Poem (Pir Press) and Breathe. After earning a B.A. at = Middlebury College in 1990, with intermittent studies at The Naropa = Institute and the Aegean Center for Fine Arts, she came to live in New = York City, encountering the large community of poets there through The = Poetry Project and other reading venues. From 1992-94, she gave = instruction in poetry to children in Bushwick, Brooklyn, which led to = her present collaboration with anthropologist Jenny Fox on a book about = the oral poetics of children. An extended stay in India followed by the = death of her father, author and scholar of comparative religion, Lex = Hixon, forced Radfar into a new space with her writing. Her first book, = India Poem, published in 2002, bridges her personal world with that of = the country for which she was named. In 2003, she read at the = Renaissance Society of the University of Chicago, in conjunction with an = Indian filmmaker. A former resident of Woodstock, N.Y., she currently = lives in Los Angeles with her husband and son.=20 LONG BEACH NOTEBOOK is located at: Palm Press 143 Ravenna Drive Long Beach, CA 90803 www.palmpress.org Bring food, drink or just a willingness to listen. This event is free. next month: Walter K. Lew Rita Wong and more...6/10/06...8pm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Marcus--- I can see your point here, but aren't you using the word "elite" in two different ways, and conflating them. You talk about initiating the economic poor into the intellectual and artistic elite But you don't talk about initiating the economic rich into the intellectual and artistic elite (and, from what I see, except in the most amazing cases of autodidacticism, being part of the economic elite doesn't necessarily make one part of an artistic or intellectual elite) Nor initiating the economic poor into the economic elite (I bring this point up, because there's an implication in your argument that the poor are less likely to understand the elitism of art, where in my experience it's more often the case that poor people understand all to well the elitism of what they may call "bougie" (is that the spelling?) art, and the resistance to it has more to do with the usefulness of such art. It's not that they can't master the code, it's that they are more aware that it is often not an economically self-sustaining proposition. Sorry if I find myself speaking in generalities here, but the acute discrepency that is often felt in many poor people between being part of an artistic or intellectual elite and the economic realities need to be investigated further. There's often a price to be paid for being part of an economic or intellectual elite, as you seem to be defining it, and that price, in contemporary America at least, more often than not may lead to people becoming even more economically poverty-stricken than they were before, and it's understandable that one may not wish to continue to create such an art (even if they have been 'initiated,' like, say, Caliban)--or consider ways of redefining art and intellectual activities in less elitist ways. Chris ---------- >From: Marcus Bales >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >Date: Fri, May 5, 2006, 5:27 AM > > On 4 May 2006 at 14:55, David Harrison Horton wrote: >> Marcus, >> Do you mean to say that the poor & working class kids in my East >> Oakland >> neighborhood are incapable of sharing and articipating in art >> because they >> haven't been taught to appreciate the elitist mystification process >> that >> John Berger tried to dispell 35 years ago? > > Not in the least. I mean to say that they are capable of sharing and > anticipating in art if someone shows them how to -- if someone initiates > them into the elite. I'm glad to hear you're doing that. In the case where > there is someone like you there to do it, your kids are not intellectually > poverty-stricken -- but think of all the kids who ARE intellectually poverty- > stricken because there is no one like you there to initiate them. THEY are > incapable of sharing and anticipating art (except in the most amazing cases > of auto-didacticism) not because they are dumb but because they are poor. > > But to deny that it IS an elite into which you're initiating them is not merely > counter-productive, it's intellectually dishonest. You're fooling yourself into > thinking that poetry is a thing independent of its creation and appreciation > by people. It's not. Poetry is an artefact of human invention, not a thing that > would exist if there were no people, like gravity or rocks or Keith Richard. > > The writing and appreciation of poetry is indeed an elite occupation. What > makes it less likely that poor kids or blue-collar kids will write or appreciate > it is a lack of people like you to initiate them. And you, I'm sure, have to > admit that even out of the kids who take the class not all of them actually > get it; and of those who get it not all of them become poets. It's an elitism of > choice, and good on you for giving them one. > > Marcus > > > >> >> David Harrison Horton >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> From: Marcus Bales >> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 >> >> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. The >> very notion >> of presenting some words in context to mean more than they would >> ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context and a >> writer >> who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, moving >> toward >> the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You >> cannot have >> art >> without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than >> "Wrong, >> wrong, >> wrong!" >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> >> On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: >> >> > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! >> > >> > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? >> > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that >> is, >> > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's >> > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an >> elitist >> > prank on Literature. >> > >> > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain >> > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at >> sunset, >> > sing to my stars for heaven's love" >> > >> > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. >> > >> > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he >> was a >> > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just >> states >> > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is >> appropriate: >> > >> > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they >> must >> > lead." >> > >> > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. >> > >> > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. >> > >> > /Pastamassima/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" >> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski >> > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 >> > > >> > > >> > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a >> > refrigerator >> > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote >> > > >> > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they >> must >> > lead." >> > > Charles Bukowski >> > > >> > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or >> Sleepy >> > Time Tea >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------- >> > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad >> > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY >> anthology >> > /\\///\\\\///// - >> > > + - >> > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM >> > > > >> > > >> > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about >> Bukowski, >> > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. >> > > > >> > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men >> (a >> > couple >> > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) >> who >> > came >> > > > to poetry through Bukowski. >> > > > >> > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how >> much >> > his >> > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not >> > pleasant, >> > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. >> > > > >> > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have >> come >> > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew >> > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a >> factory, >> > his >> > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up >> in >> > front >> > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or >> maybe >> > he >> > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED >> by >> > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way >> > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. >> > > > >> > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! >> > > > >> > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be >> true. >> > > > Conrad >> > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull >> Press, >> > 2006) >> > > > for poem samples from the book go to: >> > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >> > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >> > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak >> enough >> > to be >> > > > restrained...." >> > > > --William Blake >> > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: >> _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >> > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >> > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ >> > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >> > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > Christophe Casamassima >> > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology >> > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > ___________________________________________ >> > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net >> > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ >> > >> > >> > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:54:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit there's at least one glaring typo below (aside from the benign "to" for "too")---which I better jump on quick-- I wrote "economic" but meant "artistic"---the corrected word is in capitals There's often a price to be paid for being part > of an ARTISTIC or intellectual elite, as you seem to be defining it, > and that price, in contemporary America at least, more often than not > may lead to people becoming even more economically poverty-stricken than > they were before ---------- >From: Chris Stroffolino >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >Date: Fri, May 5, 2006, 12:12 PM > > Marcus--- > > I can see your point here, but aren't you using the word "elite" in two > different ways, and conflating them. > > You talk about initiating the economic poor into the intellectual and > artistic elite > > But you don't talk about initiating the economic rich into the intellectual > and artistic elite (and, from what I see, except in the most amazing cases > of autodidacticism, being part of the economic elite doesn't necessarily > make one part of an artistic or intellectual elite) > > Nor initiating the economic poor into the economic elite (I bring this point > up, because there's an implication in your argument that the poor are less > likely to understand the elitism of art, where in my experience it's more > often the case that poor people understand all to well the elitism of what > they may call "bougie" (is that the spelling?) art, and the resistance to it > has more to do with the usefulness of such art. It's not that they can't > master the code, it's that they are more aware that it is often not an > economically self-sustaining proposition. > > Sorry if I find myself speaking in generalities here, but the acute > discrepency that is often felt in many poor people between being part of an > artistic or intellectual elite and the economic realities need to be > investigated further. There's often a price to be paid for being part > of an economic or intellectual elite, as you seem to be defining it, > and that price, in contemporary America at least, more often than not > may lead to people becoming even more economically poverty-stricken than > they were before, and it's understandable that one may not wish to continue > to create such an art (even if they have been 'initiated,' like, say, > Caliban)--or consider ways of redefining art and intellectual activities > in less elitist ways. > > Chris > > > ---------- >>From: Marcus Bales >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >>Date: Fri, May 5, 2006, 5:27 AM >> > >> On 4 May 2006 at 14:55, David Harrison Horton wrote: >>> Marcus, >>> Do you mean to say that the poor & working class kids in my East >>> Oakland >>> neighborhood are incapable of sharing and articipating in art >>> because they >>> haven't been taught to appreciate the elitist mystification process >>> that >>> John Berger tried to dispell 35 years ago? >> >> Not in the least. I mean to say that they are capable of sharing and >> anticipating in art if someone shows them how to -- if someone initiates >> them into the elite. I'm glad to hear you're doing that. In the case where >> there is someone like you there to do it, your kids are not intellectually >> poverty-stricken -- but think of all the kids who ARE intellectually poverty- >> stricken because there is no one like you there to initiate them. THEY are >> incapable of sharing and anticipating art (except in the most amazing cases >> of auto-didacticism) not because they are dumb but because they are poor. >> >> But to deny that it IS an elite into which you're initiating them is not > merely >> counter-productive, it's intellectually dishonest. You're fooling yourself > into >> thinking that poetry is a thing independent of its creation and appreciation >> by people. It's not. Poetry is an artefact of human invention, not a thing > that >> would exist if there were no people, like gravity or rocks or Keith Richard. >> >> The writing and appreciation of poetry is indeed an elite occupation. What >> makes it less likely that poor kids or blue-collar kids will write or > appreciate >> it is a lack of people like you to initiate them. And you, I'm sure, have to >> admit that even out of the kids who take the class not all of them actually >> get it; and of those who get it not all of them become poets. It's an elitism > of >> choice, and good on you for giving them one. >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >>> >>> David Harrison Horton >>> >>> ----Original Message Follows---- >>> From: Marcus Bales >>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>> >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >>> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 >>> >>> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. The >>> very notion >>> of presenting some words in context to mean more than they would >>> ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context and a >>> writer >>> who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, moving >>> toward >>> the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You >>> cannot have >>> art >>> without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than >>> "Wrong, >>> wrong, >>> wrong!" >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: >>> >>> > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! >>> > >>> > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? >>> > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that >>> is, >>> > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's >>> > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an >>> elitist >>> > prank on Literature. >>> > >>> > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer rain >>> > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at >>> sunset, >>> > sing to my stars for heaven's love" >>> > >>> > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. >>> > >>> > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought he >>> was a >>> > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just >>> states >>> > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is >>> appropriate: >>> > >>> > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they >>> must >>> > lead." >>> > >>> > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. >>> > >>> > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. >>> > >>> > /Pastamassima/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" >>> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski >>> > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a >>> > refrigerator >>> > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote >>> > > >>> > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they >>> must >>> > lead." >>> > > Charles Bukowski >>> > > >>> > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or >>> Sleepy >>> > Time Tea >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > ---------- >>> > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad >>> > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY >>> anthology >>> > /\\///\\\\///// - >>> > > + - >>> > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about >>> Bukowski, >>> > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. >>> > > > >>> > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men >>> (a >>> > couple >>> > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) >>> who >>> > came >>> > > > to poetry through Bukowski. >>> > > > >>> > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how >>> much >>> > his >>> > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not >>> > pleasant, >>> > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. >>> > > > >>> > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have >>> come >>> > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew >>> > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a >>> factory, >>> > his >>> > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up >>> in >>> > front >>> > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or >>> maybe >>> > he >>> > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED >>> by >>> > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way >>> > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. >>> > > > >>> > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! >>> > > > >>> > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be >>> true. >>> > > > Conrad >>> > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull >>> Press, >>> > 2006) >>> > > > for poem samples from the book go to: >>> > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>> > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>> > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak >>> enough >>> > to be >>> > > > restrained...." >>> > > > --William Blake >>> > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: >>> _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>> > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>> > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ >>> > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>> > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Christophe Casamassima >>> > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology >>> > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > ___________________________________________ >>> > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net >>> > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ >>> > >>> > >>> > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 12:39:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Maybe just working with words- hoisting them up, cutting and arranging them to fit both concept and shape - makes one by definition a worker. What defines 'class' (as a collusion of forces with others, ones that provide the worker with financing, distribution and consequent power) is currently an elusive proposition for most of us as such "workers". Witness probably the majority of MFA's - degrees in one hand and 100 grand(+) debt in the other. This is aesthetics as long term panic, deprivation, $$slavery. The powers (banks) give with one hand and knock out with the other - so it seems. In any case, continuing to do the work under this kind of pressure, takes a brave kind of foolery. I would just suggest that making language that is intended to have exclusive currency within a certain class is a limited proposition for poetry and/or the poem. Making the poem make money requires speaking to who or what class? Stephen http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Current site of the "Tenderly" Series. > my assumptions is a working class poet is writing to be read by other > inhabitants of the working class.... which would seem to exclude a > lot of the post-modern repertoire. > > but then you are making an argument that a poet/artist/what-have-you has > control over their audience. (who is reading them) > or am i missing something? > > On 5/5/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >> I'm not really sure what characteristics makes a working class poet. >> For instance it's only in the last 5 years of my life that I've made >> enough money to economically belong to the working class, but one of >> my assumptions is a working class poet is writing to be read by other >> inhabitants of the working class.... which would seem to exclude a >> lot of the post-modern repertoire. Here in southwest WI, in the land >> of deep forests & organic dairy, a working class poet would be >> someone like Garrison Keillor, and it wouldn't get much more racy >> than that. >> >> >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> >> On May 5, 2006, at 10:18 AM, kevin thurston wrote: >> >>> this is switching gears, mIEKAL, to a degree, but to continue: >>> >>> [i think that] working class artists generally can afford to be more >>> experimental (incorporating the history of the avant, etc) as they >>> have less >>> to lose >>> >>> On 5/5/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >>>> >>>> Seems to me the whole 60s Cleveland scene with d.a. levy, kryss, >>>> wagner, & rjs was a great example of a working class poetry that >>>> even managed to throw in a bit of the avant... >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 4, 2006, at 11:54 PM, David Baratier wrote: >>>> >>>>> Buk used to frequent a bar >>>>> >>>>> I suppose many fault Buk >>>> >>>>> were it not for Buk >>>> >>>>> the influence that Buk had >>>> >>>>> directly into this realm of an understandable and universal >>>>> "working class" vernacular? >>>>> >> >> >> There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good >> teacher. >> --Flannery O'Connor >> > > > > -- > When hot fluid strikes hotter exhaust manifolds, the risk of fire is > serious. But when hot fluid hits someone in the face, it can be even more > severe. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:13:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: conferences for young writers? Comments: To: Lea Graham In-Reply-To: <000a01c67053$a96bab40$6501a8c0@MobileXP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iowa Summer WritinG program -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Lea Graham Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 9:53 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: conferences for young writers? Folks, I'm looking for writing conferences for some of my students who are either college juniors/seniors next fall or are graduates this May. The RISD summer program just seems to be for high school students. Does anyone out there know of anything? It would be preferable to find them out on the East Coast, but I'd be interested in knowing of anything operating around the country. Cheers, Lea ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 16:34:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <200605051845.k45Ij8Dn074356@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 5 May 2006 at 12:12, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > I can see your point here, but aren't you using the word "elite" in > two different ways, and conflating them. > You talk about initiating the economic poor into the intellectual > and artistic elite > But you don't talk about initiating the economic rich into the > intellectual > and artistic elite (and, from what I see, except in the most amazing > cases > of autodidacticism, being part of the economic elite doesn't > necessarily > make one part of an artistic or intellectual elite)< Well, I hope I'm not using "elite" in two sense and not distinguishing between them. I'm trying to say that the chances of getting initiated into the artistic or intellectual elite is much better for the economically elite for at least two reasons: first, the students are more likely to see themselves as worthy of, and with entry to, the one kind of elite if they're of another kind, and, second, they're likely to have a lot better exposure to and teaching of the values and tenets of the intellectual and artistic elite if they're of the economic elite; and, third of two, they're more likely to see a path to success in the intellectual or artistic elite, or have the resources to experiment along the path of that success, if they're already part of the economic elite. I'm not saying that being part of the economic elite makes one part of the artistic or intellectual elite -- it doesn't, and it can't: there is no royal road to learning -- but it sure gives you a better chance at it if you want it. > Nor initiating the economic poor into the economic elite (I bring > this point > up, because there's an implication in your argument that the poor > are less > likely to understand the elitism of art, where in my experience it's > more > often the case that poor people understand all to well the elitism > of what > they may call "bougie" (is that the spelling?) art, and the > resistance to it > has more to do with the usefulness of such art.< Art isn't very useful, though, no matter what -- and thinking that it might be of use in the way a car or a job might be of use is part of the evidence that they haven't really broken the elitist code, in my judgment. Also, the economically disadvantaged students don't have the family or personal resources to support them, or help support them, in any attempt to achieve any sort of career in the arts, where the bottom rung of the ladder is a good deal higher and more slippery than in most other professions. My father used to point out that the 20,000th best plumber in the country can make a nice living but the 500th best violinist starves. You've got to either so believe in yourself and your talent and in the system that judges and nurtures or dismisses that talent that you're willing to endure the economic disadvantages (as well as the social ones -- as when all your friends are buying cars because they're in the plumbing trades and you're still living with your parents and bumming rides because you're still learning the violin), or you've got to be incredibly lucky. It's not that the poor understand "all too well" the elitism, it's that they are not taught to value the "life of the mind" because they're so concerned with just getting from paycheck to paycheck that the life of the mind seems pretty silly and affected -- bougie. > It's not that they can't > master the code, it's that they are more aware that it is often not > an economically self-sustaining proposition.< Just so -- and most poor folks have not and will not internalize the notion that the "life of the mind" is more valuable than a new car and a good job and the like, and they don't have the family or personal resources to try to have both "the good life" and "a good life". > Sorry if I find myself speaking in generalities here, but the > acute discrepency that is often felt in many poor people between being > part of an artistic or intellectual elite and the economic realities need to > be investigated further. There's often a price to be paid for being part > of an ARTISTIC or intellectual elite, as you seem to be defining it, > and that price, in contemporary America at least, more often than not > may lead to people becoming even more economically poverty-stricken > than they were before and it's understandable that one may not wish to > continue to create such an art (even if they have been 'initiated,' like, > say, Caliban)--or consider ways of redefining art and intellectual > activities in less elitist ways.< All very true: we seem to be saying the same thing, in fact. But what you're saying is that the poor are correct in their judgment that the life of the mind is not worth living if the trade-off is poverty. It may be that if you start off in poverty the notion of continuing in poverty by choice in order to pursue one's art seems pretty silly if one has the skills to make a living to give up that living in favor of the same kind of poverty you'd face if you didn't have any skills. And, of course, if you and your family are pretty well-off, there may be family resources to help you through the first rough years, and, if you finally decide to give up you can always get a pretty good job based on the pretty good education that you got in the pursuit of your art. But in the end it all boils down to the same sauce: if you're poor, even if you're very talented, you're not very likely to internalize the values of the life of the mind, and if you're well-off, you still probably won't, but you may; and if you do, you have a better chance of survival, and even of success. Marcus > > On 4 May 2006 at 14:55, David Harrison Horton wrote: > >> Marcus, > >> Do you mean to say that the poor & working class kids in my > East > >> Oakland > >> neighborhood are incapable of sharing and articipating in art > >> because they > >> haven't been taught to appreciate the elitist mystification > process > >> that > >> John Berger tried to dispell 35 years ago? > > > > Not in the least. I mean to say that they are capable of sharing > and > > anticipating in art if someone shows them how to -- if someone > initiates > > them into the elite. I'm glad to hear you're doing that. In the > case where > > there is someone like you there to do it, your kids are not > intellectually > > poverty-stricken -- but think of all the kids who ARE > intellectually poverty- > > stricken because there is no one like you there to initiate them. > THEY are > > incapable of sharing and anticipating art (except in the most > amazing cases > > of auto-didacticism) not because they are dumb but because they > are poor. > > > > But to deny that it IS an elite into which you're initiating them > is not > merely > > counter-productive, it's intellectually dishonest. You're fooling > yourself > into > > thinking that poetry is a thing independent of its creation and > appreciation > > by people. It's not. Poetry is an artefact of human invention, not > a thing > that > > would exist if there were no people, like gravity or rocks or > Keith Richard. > > > > The writing and appreciation of poetry is indeed an elite > occupation. What > > makes it less likely that poor kids or blue-collar kids will write > or > appreciate > > it is a lack of people like you to initiate them. And you, I'm > sure, have to > > admit that even out of the kids who take the class not all of them > actually > > get it; and of those who get it not all of them become poets. It's > an elitism > of > > choice, and good on you for giving them one. > > > > Marcus > > > > > > > >> > >> David Harrison Horton > >> > >> ----Original Message Follows---- > >> From: Marcus Bales > >> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >> > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski > >> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 > >> > >> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. > The > >> very notion > >> of presenting some words in context to mean more than they > would > >> ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context > and a > >> writer > >> who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, > moving > >> toward > >> the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You > >> cannot have > >> art > >> without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than > >> "Wrong, > >> wrong, > >> wrong!" > >> > >> Marcus > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: > >> > >> > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! > >> > > >> > But this begs the question: is there a "working class > language? > >> > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that > >> is, > >> > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, > what's > >> > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an > >> elitist > >> > prank on Literature. > >> > > >> > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer > rain > >> > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at > >> sunset, > >> > sing to my stars for heaven's love" > >> > > >> > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. > >> > > >> > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought > he > >> was a > >> > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just > >> states > >> > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is > >> appropriate: > >> > > >> > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they > >> must > >> > lead." > >> > > >> > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. > >> > > >> > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. > >> > > >> > /Pastamassima/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" > >> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > >> > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a > >> > refrigerator > >> > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote > >> > > > >> > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives > they > >> must > >> > lead." > >> > > Charles Bukowski > >> > > > >> > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or > >> Sleepy > >> > Time Tea > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ---------- > >> > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad > >> > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY > >> anthology > >> > /\\///\\\\///// - > >> > > + - > >> > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about > >> Bukowski, > >> > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. > >> > > > > >> > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class > men > >> (a > >> > couple > >> > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) > >> who > >> > came > >> > > > to poetry through Bukowski. > >> > > > > >> > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how > >> much > >> > his > >> > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not > >> > pleasant, > >> > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > >> > > > > >> > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have > >> come > >> > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I > knew > >> > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a > >> factory, > >> > his > >> > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get > up > >> in > >> > front > >> > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or > >> maybe > >> > he > >> > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he > LOVED > >> by > >> > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by > way > >> > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first > place. > >> > > > > >> > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! > >> > > > > >> > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be > >> true. > >> > > > Conrad > >> > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft > Skull > >> Press, > >> > 2006) > >> > > > for poem samples from the book go to: > >> > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > >> > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > >> > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is > weak > >> enough > >> > to be > >> > > > restrained...." > >> > > > --William Blake > >> > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: > >> _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > >> > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > >> > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ > >> > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > >> > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Christophe Casamassima > >> > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > >> > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > ___________________________________________ > >> > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > >> > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > >> > > >> > > >> > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: The Atees Are Back Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 How come every twenty years we gotta have this retro revival? I grew up in = the eightees and these were the saddest years of my life. Now they gotta th= row it back in my face. and all these old ladies like Def Leperd and Ozzy S= tillborn and Journey gotta comeback. I heard Bruce Springstein is doing this spirituals album or something on NP= R. It actually sounds fantastic (for a moment there he sounds like Tom Wait= s). Bruce, come back to Jersey - we need you. I live in Baltimore. "I'm fr= om NYC" Lee Ranaldo (whom I bear a striking resemblence). Please, send the eighties back to back there. No more retro please. Look forward, y'alls. Chris --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 15:12:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: August Highland at POETS HOUSE - Next Friday, May 12th Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-445BCDE52058=======" --=======AVGMAIL-445BCDE52058======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE VISUAL ARTS April 26, 2006 Contact: Stephen Motika Poets House is open Tuesday-Friday 11am-7pm & Saturday 11am-4pm. Poets House | 72 Spring Street, Second Floor | New York, N.Y. 10012 (212) 431-7920 | info@poetshouse.org ALPHANUMERIC PAINTINGS by AUGUST HIGHLAND "Sacred Burial Grounds" Opening Reception: Friday May 12, 2006, 6-8pm On view May 12 through June 24 Admission: Free Like ancient civilization slumbering beneath cities of glass and street, = classical poetries are buried deep in August Highland's visual texts on=20 large canvases, which explore the modern experience of language. August Highland is an experimental writer and visual artist based in San = Diego. He is the founding editor and publisher of The Mag=20 (http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com,) an online international literary = review of innovative writing. Since developing "Alphanumeric Painting" = in=20 2002, he has shown in over 25 shows with upcoming shows in Tokyo, = Prague,=20 Los Angeles, Arizona and Kansas City. Highland has also been requested = to=20 speak about his original techniques at several Universities, including=20 Harvard. His work is in many private and public collections. He is = fast=20 becoming one of the newest phenomenons of the contemporary art scene. Works by August Highland can be viewed online at www.august-highland.com --=======AVGMAIL-445BCDE52058======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 5/5/2006 --=======AVGMAIL-445BCDE52058=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 18:35:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: CA Conrad & Everyone on Bukowski on class on poetry on art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcus, the bouncing subject of art as elitist is so important. And I say bouncing because it's elitist in different ways, but in different places. Art as commodity is problematic. BUT, don't you think that today with the LITERALLY thousands and thousands in art schools, in writing programs, etc., not to mention the tens of thousands who have already graduated, that we're hitting the BEAUTIFUL WATER MARK? I mean to say, we really ARE moving past the ability to even keep track of who everyone is at this point so many of us, everywhere. Meaning that GROWING number of people who are believing the CAN be artists and writers, believe they ARE, it's hard to see an elite standing firm. This is off the subject, but the whole "Outsider Art" world is pretty much working class and poorer. Jonathan Williams has quite an amazing collection in his home in North Carolina I've been fortunate enough to see firsthand. Georgia Blizzard, etc. The very fact they are classified as Outside is the question, right? Why Outside? And Outside what by the way? Outside society? Outside the elite art world? Both and more? Back to the multitudes finding their Art, it's JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME with the world in such a fucking mess. We're going to need all that creativity to put things back in place, or put them into a new place. Change requires a creative snap. It's horrifying, but exciting, and beautiful, being alive today, dontcha think? CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 18:38:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: why GAYS in the military IS NOT a civil rights issue! :: :: :: :: :: :: :: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit why GAYS in the military IS NOT a civil rights issue! :: :: :: :: :: :: :: go here: _http://tenbyfour.blogspot.com_ (http://tenbyfour.blogspot.com/) brought to you by CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: new bpNichol audio files @ PennSound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear all: I'm delighted to announce that we've added new material to the bpNichol audio archive at PennSound (http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/). Please do forward this announcement to whomever might be interested - best, Lori Emerson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D bp Nichol Audio Archive, ed. Lori Emerson http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Nichol.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Item #9 The following poems were recorded by bpNichol in Torino, Italy in April 1987 and were released as a cassette tape in 1990 as part of Pat=E9 de Voix 4 (an imprint of Offerta Speciale, published by Carla Bertola and Alberto Vitacchio). The voices of Carla Bertola and Alberto Vitacchio appear in "And this is what it means when meaning's over" and, as Bertola and Vitacchio put it, "are there to remember our friendship and love for him." 1) senza titolo (1987) (1:47) 2) senza titolo (1987) (2:32) 3) And this is what it means when meaning's over (1987, 1990) (6:50) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D bp Nichol Audio Archive, ed. Lori Emerson http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Nichol.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D PennSound is an ongoing project, committed to producing new audio recordings and preserving existing audio archives. We intend to provide as much documentation about individual recordings as possible; new bibliographic information will be added over time. As part of the PennSound project, the Schoenberg Center for Electronic Text & Image (SCETI) in collaboration with the Annenberg Rare Book and Manuscript Collection at the University of Pennsylvania is developing a sophisticated cataloguing tool for all our sound files; this should be available in about one year. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 20:24:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Inside Higher Ed In-Reply-To: <407.1187069.318d2d1f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/05/05/mccain --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 04:21:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Jig-Sound video MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a 6:21 Quicktime video I put together about the Jig-Sound project that's in progress: http://vispo.com/bc/Sorenson3-4/Sorenson3-4.html This video is an attempt to indicate where I'm trying to take the project. The interactive Shockwave demos discussed in the video are online at http://vispo.com/bc/a http://vispo.com/dbcinema http://vispo.com/bc/b/hills2.htm Have been turned down on 2 proposals, so far, for funding for this project. But didn't have the video for those proposals (nor the interactive Shockwave for the earliest proposal) and am still working on a good written presentation of the thang. Gonna make this puppy one way or another, though. ja ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jen Linden Subject: Re: working class poesy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Stephen Vincent wrote... Witness probably the majority of MFA's - degrees in one hand and 100 grand(+) debt in the other. This is aesthetics as long term panic, deprivation, $$slavery. The powers (banks) give with one hand and knock out with the other - so it seems. In any case, continuing to do the work under this kind of pressure, takes a brave kind of foolery -- changing the topic a little .... or when poets mortgage decades of their futures to the MFA granting university, is it a kind of collective hysteria ....like roasting your own horse on a spit, because you imagine you're hungry enough to eat one -Jen _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:19:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: <407.1187069.318d2d1f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 5 May 2006 at 19:06, David Harrison Horton wrote: > So to use an analogy, if music isn't played in the concert hall, but > is made > by poor and working class people in their homes, then that is not > music? Not all music is art, any more than all writing is art. The term you use is too broad in this instance. Lots of music is entertainment, not art. So, while the poor and working class people certainly make music in their homes, the question is whether they are making art. Not all concert hall music is art, either -- I heard the Cleveland Orchestra in Severance Hall one year phone in a performance of Mozart's Jupiter that made it less even than entertainment. > I do not doubt my own privelege in my appreciation of and interest > in "difficult" texts, but I am far from thinking that the poetry I > write and read emcompasses all poetry. Your definition of poetry/art > under-reaches and > fails to include a wide range of work made by and for > non-elitists. Maybe so -- but if I understand "work made by and for non-elitists" correctly, I call that work "entertainment" because it is neither intended as nor perceived as "art" by the folks who make and enjoy it. Once again, art is an elitist occupation by its nature, by necessity. The point of distinguishing art from non-art is to appeal to people who are looking for the art experience. Among those looking for the art experience, some will mistake the place or the brand or something else for the art experience. Appreciating art requires a kind of temperament that is not universal, and enough education in the conventions of the arts within the context of the culture to understand the intentional difference between using different colors of paint to protect the house from the weather and using different colors of paint to make art; between music to entertain and music to make art; between language to order bricks and language to make art; and so on. > I agree that much of what passes as art (any genre) is elitist, but > I think there is a wider scope than what makes it into the gallery, the > concert hall, or the Paris Review. I agree there is a wider scope than gallery, hall, review -- but not so wide a scope that any collection of family members whacking away at the kazoo is "making art". > On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: > Art as commodity is problematic. BUT, don't you think that today > with the LITERALLY thousands and thousands in art schools, in writing > programs, etc., not to mention the tens of thousands who have > already graduated, that we're hitting the BEAUTIFUL WATER MARK?< This confuses "elite" with mere number, which I think mistakes entirely the notion of an elite in art, or in any field of knowledge. I hold that there is "good elite" and "bad elite". The "bad elite" is exclusive, it seeks to limit the number of "us" and glories in the notion that there is a majority "them" who are not good enough. The "good elite" is inclusive, it seeks excellence wherever it is to be found, irrespective of number or otherness. But I think you're wrong to hold that mere tens of thousands of graduates in the liberal arts out of the hundreds of millions who make up just the US is still a pretty small number. I don't hold that the number matters, but if you do, then I want to point out that tens of thousands is a small number in context. > I mean to say, we really ARE moving past the ability to even keep > track of who everyone is at this point so many of us, everywhere. > Meaning > that GROWING number of people who are believing the CAN be artists > and writers, believe they ARE, it's hard to see an elite standing > firm.< But the elite, at least the "good elite", never does "stand firm". I'm not advocating an exclusive elite that keeps the poor folk out; I'm advocating an inclusive elite that seeks to find excellence where it exists. But excellence, not just any old crap that's been ignored by the "bad elite". Not only is propinquity not enough, being ignored, or dismissed, or even denigrated by the "bad elite" is not enough to make something art. > This is off the subject, but the whole "Outsider Art" world is > pretty much working class and poorer. Jonathan Williams has quite an > amazing collection in his home in North Carolina I've been > fortunate enough to see firsthand. Georgia Blizzard, etc. > The very fact they are classified as Outside is the question, > right? Why Outside? And Outside what by the way? Yeah, sure, tell me that priapean is a measure consisting of a glyconic and a pherecratean (qqv) separated by a diaeresis is not elitist! Come on! Look at that poem by Jonathan Williams and tell me that Tupac's crew would find it to be art. You know that isn't right. And that's just the very first poem found on the first page of the google search for "jonathan williams metafours". You even have to know what a metaphor is and what a quatrain is and a little bit about meter and scansion to appreciate the joke of "metafours". However "outside" Mr Williams and his critics and appreciators deem him to be, he ain't so far outside but what you have to be in the elite to get him. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 08:21:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Uh, gentlemen? Isn't the primary objection to Bukowski related to his representation of women? I say this not as any impressive insight, but because this stupidly obvious point I'm making seems so far not to have come up. My apologies if I missed something; it's likely I haven't seen all the posts. And please note that I say this as someone who does find significant value in the working class elements of his writing that you all have been discussing. I don't think his perspective on women can automatically be linked to a working class sensibility in any simple sense, although undoubtedly that's part of the issue. The most interesting take on Bukowski I've read, although I'm not completely sure I believe it, is Mike Baskinski's claim that we need to read Bukowski's work as an exploration/celebration of the American Dream that is both satirical and serious simultaneously. It's a great piece but I don't remember where it was published. Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 11:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060506152118.5450.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thank you, mark On 5/6/06 11:21 AM, "Mark Wallace" wrote: > Uh, gentlemen? Isn't the primary objection to Bukowski > related to his representation of women? I say this not > as any impressive insight, but because this stupidly > obvious point I'm making seems so far not to have come > up. My apologies if I missed something; it's likely I > haven't seen all the posts. And please note that I say > this as someone who does find significant value in the > working class elements of his writing that you all > have been discussing. > > I don't think his perspective on women can > automatically be linked to a working class sensibility > in any simple sense, although undoubtedly that's part > of the issue. > > The most interesting take on Bukowski I've read, > although I'm not completely sure I believe it, is Mike > Baskinski's claim that we need to read Bukowski's work > as an exploration/celebration of the American Dream > that is both satirical and serious simultaneously. > It's a great piece but I don't remember where it was > published. > > Mark > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:55:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: <445C8628.20245.5E66A71@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Then we disagree on the scope of poetry and art. I prefer inclusion and it seems you prefer exclusion. You're argument reminds me of Harold Bloom. http://bostonreview.net/BR23.2/bloom.html David Harrison Horton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:56:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sorry, that last one was responding to Marcus. Then we disagree on the scope of poetry and art. I prefer inclusion and it seems you prefer exclusion. You're argument reminds me of Harold Bloom. http://bostonreview.net/BR23.2/bloom.html David Harrison Horton ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Harrison Horton Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 09:55:08 -0700 Then we disagree on the scope of poetry and art. I prefer inclusion and it seems you prefer exclusion. You're argument reminds me of Harold Bloom. http://bostonreview.net/BR23.2/bloom.html David Harrison Horton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 21:01:36 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Objects: for a proletarian poetics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jumpin Jack Flash Is A Gas Gas Gas The chapter, "Bombing the Big Apple," in Andrew Ross's The Chicago Gangster Theory of Life hardly seems a promising first note to sound on the subject of having a gas, as the Rolling Stones would have it, in postwar American poetry. Ross draws an analogy between the 1993 car-bombing of the World Trade Center and the ecological and social devastation of New York City by planners and their policies and impugns the city leaders for destruction of another order than the 1993 effort to fell the Twin Towers. Ross's argument has an unlikely beginning in lines by Walt Whitman and Frank O'Hara, based on their use by the Iranian-born artist, Siah Armajani, as part of a 1986 public art project for the World Financial Center in Battery Park City. Ross recapitulates the familiar image of O'Hara as the gay James Dean of The New American Poetry generation by commenting on the unexpectedness of Armajani's choice considering the "maverick" status of O'Hara compared to Frost, Emerson, Melville and Whitman, all of whom Armajani has quoted in past public art projects (100). On the contrary, as I hope to indicate with attention to two of O'Hara's contemporaries, Jack Spicer and Stephen Jonas, one model of traditional lyricism (monologism, autonomous form, grammatical and syntactic order) is represented for these poets by O'Hara's work. The 1957 Meditations in an Emergency, the title poem for which happens to be the source of the passage used by Armajani, is especially valuable for locating this far from "maverick" O'Hara, when read alongside poetry reacting against his poetry. O'Hara's example has the advantage that the departure from his poetry is relatively free of the antagonism towards the beat poets signaled in these acerbic lines by Jonas: "The Scene of the Fifties: / trash / (white) / on the road" (95). These lines form the whole of CLXIII in Jonas's Exercises for Ear, a book of 174 linked poems written over a number of years and first published in 1968. Like Spicer's 1965 Language, Jonas's volume offers the example of serial structure, a significant departure from the mode of the single, separate poem operating in Meditations in an Emergency. Neither should seriality be dissociated from the foregrounding of language-functions, unstable pronominal referents, volatile lexical registers, and especially in Jonas's volume, the increasing fragmentation of line and word. Apart from the fact that the three poets were contemporaries, with personal contact, correspondence, and publication in the same magazines representing communication shared in varying degrees among them, they also share the troubling distinction of belonging to a special category of American poets whose real, writing lives have ended abruptly: O'Hara (1926-1966), killed by accident; Spicer (1925-1965) dead of alcoholism; and Jonas (192?-1970) dead of a drug overdose. In the literary history of early modernism in America, Hart Crane's mercurial passage across the 1920s demonstrates how the spectacle of a poet's life can interfere with the contemporary reception of their work and problematize future readings and posthumous understandings, one example of which appears in a comment Spicer makes in his Vancouver lectures: "What Crane did was to make all of his openness not metric but in terms of vocabulary . . . he would use the metric as something he took as fairly stable, and the vocabulary he spilled out all over the world" (15.06.65). In addition to associating O'Hara, Spicer and Jonas as contemporaries whose lives and works bear the marks of minority sexual identity, and in Jonas's work the marks as well of minority racial identity, a further differentiation needs to be made with respect to minority class identity, if the poetry of Spicer and Jonas can be characterized as proletarian compared to O'Hara's work. However, not only are Spicer and Jonas associated with bohemian literary circles in, respectively, San Francisco and Boston, just as O'Hara is associated with the vicissitudes of the New York City art world, but the term "proletarian" in reference to their work is also tendentious, since nowhere in their poetry do they consciously identify themselves as such, whereas they take great care to make sexual and racial identifications. Bohemia in general in 1950s and later America might be considered as a kind of urban wilderness, where social difference is effaced under pretense of the pursuit of 'unmediated' art, just as in the American National Park "the sublimity of an unpeopled landscape (its indigenous inhabitants having long since been evicted) erases all the legacies of social difference borne by visiting nature trekkers, and allows them to transcend those social identities that are judged to be restrictive and irrelevant in the face of unmediated Nature" (Ross 103). Or, as Spicer puts it: "The country is not very well defined. / Whether they are bat-people or real people. The sea- / Coast of Bohemia" (14). So the marks of the mediation of social class in the poetry of Spicer and Jonas are comparatively furtive, often layered into the representation of sexual and/or racial difference, yet one of the places where the articulation of class difference can be clearly discerned is on the comic edges of their work, varieties of provocation and indignation which derive from a poetic of powerlessness reminiscent of Derrida's concept of unpower in his reading of Antonin Artaud. Derrida's translator points out that the French impouvoir which appears as unpower in the Artaud essay appears as powerlessness in the English translations of Artaud's Collected Works (419). Both terms would seem equally adequate for approaching Spicer's Language and Jonas's Exercises for Ear, though it should be noted that the problem of the relation of speech to language addressed in Derrida's essay might be one way to conceive of the space separating the two books. They function as counterparts, each separately countering the kind of poetry represented by Meditations in an Emergency. Through the experience of unpower, Derrida's Artaud discovers the limits of thought, "the nothingness at the heart of the word, the 'lack of being''' (215). This limit results from the theft of speech from the speaker by the outside, the otherness condition from which all words are spoken, "the fecundity of the other breath [souffle] is unpower: not the absence but the radical irresponsibility of speech, irresponsibility as the power and the origin of speech" (221). Utterance is not articulation, but breath-space, spirit-world, verbal impulse driven both towards and away from signification, "the cultural field from which I must draw my words and my syntax, the historical field which I must read by writing on it" (224). The strong pull towards the unconscious which Spicer will formulate as a poetics of dictation in his Vancouver lectures, and which for Jonas surfaces under pressure of the many voices pushing through molecular word-by-word spatial and auditory balancings, is read thus parenthetically from Artaud by Derrida: "('In my unconsciousness it is others whom I hear,' 1946)" (221). As a result of this embeddedness of multiple social voicings, "the signifier on its own says more than I mean to say, and in relation to it, my meaning-to-say is submissive rather than active" (224). Every page of O'Hara's Meditations in an Emergency projects the poet as an active agent of a highly individualized mock-heroic style, a comic abundance of what Jonas calls "baroque adjective baubles," tempered by surrealist and futurist means of acceleration and incongruity, but never departing from the syntactic order and linear grid that prevent isolation of single words and within words, parts and particles of speech: language structures. "Morphogenesis" is the title of a poem by Jonas, not part of the Exercises for Ear series, significantly subtitled, "(being a conventionalization of 'Morphemes' by Jack Spicer)" (156). Given the condition of powerlessness, the impoverishment and dispossession attendant to such an experience of ontological and linguistic negation as Derrida locates in Artaud, and which I am suggesting can be extended to Spicer and Jonas, it is remarkable that neither poet arrives anywhere near proposing a theater of cruelty. In "Transformations I" the statement that "no enemy in the universe is worth having" appears among shifting references stretched across I, You, He, We, They, Them-the statement itself further attenuated by an "out of place" third-person possessive plural pronoun-investigating "enemy" and "hate" and producing in the simple subject-verb-object statement concluding the poem an indeterminant sense of just who is hating what or whom: They say "he need (present) enemy (plural)" I am not them. This is the first transformation. They say "we need (present) no enemy (singular)" No enemy in the universe is their worth having. We is an intimate pronoun which shifts its context almost as the I blinks at it. Those Swans we saw in the garden coming out of the water we hated them. "Out of place," you said in passing. Those swans and I (a blink in context), all out of place we hated you. He need (present) enemy (plural) and now it is the swans and me against you Everything out of place (And now another blink of moment) the last swan back in place. We Hated them. (37). Characteristic for Spicer are the juxtaposed lines and enjambed endings refusing expected word order. The heightened attention to pronouns whose potential for expressing a stable subject position are reduced to a "blink" in the landscape, if there is a landscape, such as in Yeats' "The Wild Swans at Coole" (the association is not arbitrary, since Yeats' theory of dictation is the starting point for Spicer's Vancouver lectures (13.06.1965)), is abstracted to the blank slate of a syntactic field where the phrase "out of place" reverberates three times against the penultimate line's single "back in place." The poem is thinking about the orderly procession of words in a line, "their" hated order, and the enculturated meanings they police. The vocabulary is disconcertingly basic. The "last swan" in the next-to-last line of "Transformations I" is more floating sign than word designating something seen, and the narrated experience which involves someone saying something to someone else about some place they once visited is subordinated to analysis of the structure of saying it. Two closely related observations from A Thousand Plateaus can help explain what Spicer is doing here: "A rule of grammar is a power marker before it is a syntactical marker"; and "language does not operate between something seen (or felt) and something said, but always goes from saying to saying" (Deleuze and Guattari 76). The concluding statement in Spicer's text, "We / hated them," is arrived at by way of displacement and dislocation, and closure, a momentary point of rest in the serial poem, is attained by means of what Deleuze and Guattari call the "order word" ("the elementary unit of language-the statement" (76)), and as with Derrida's use of impouvoir from Artaud, the translator of A Thousand Plateaus points out that mot d'ordre also means slogan and password (523). Between beginning and ending, the two companion utterances, "I am not them" and "We / hated them," as statements, slogans and passwords, may very well loom over Spicer's Language as one key to the sexual and class difference inscribed there. At another node in the cluster of possibilities for intensifying awareness of social surfaces across which subjectivities migrate is the practice of reported speech in Jonas's Exercises for Ear. Deleuze and Guattari note their debt to V. N. Volosinov's concept of indirect discourse in their consideration of the importance for narration of reported speech: "We believe that narrative consists not in communicating what one has seen but in transmitting what one has heard, what someone else said to you. . . . The 'first' language, or rather, the first determination of language, is not the trope or metaphor but indirect discourse" (76-7). Turning to Volosinov, the same term can be found applied in a context close to Spicer and Jonas: "one can answer questions as to 'how' and 'about what' so-and-so spoke, but 'what' he said could be disclosed only by way of reporting his words, if only in the form of indirect discourse" (149). What in Spicer is one mode among a range of modes for incorporating social materials becomes in Jonas a practice amounting to method for listening to the voice of the other. An extreme instance is found in LXII where the poet disappears behind what Deleuze and Guattari call the "hearsay": "i want you to get dressed-up in your s.s. uniform and pretend i'm a prisoner of war and then ask me questions i can' possibly answer i want you to call in your friends and have them stand aroun' and call me filthy names you can take me with you i'll be your slave . . ." (50). This is Derrida's Artaud's submissive "meaning-to-say," reported speech purporting masochist wish list, formally rendered by Jonas in two roughly symmetrical thought-movements turning on the phrase "I want you to" and closing with a promise disguised as an offer, as if Deleuze and Guattari's example, "I make a promise by saying 'I love you,'" for "these acts internal to speech, these immanent relations between statements and acts" (77) could be located in a studied rendition of sex-play abasement. In LXII from Exercises for Ear we begin to hear what unpower sounds like. The poem demands of the reader the ability to resist the conventional reflex inviting Adorno's stricture, 'no poetry after Auschwitz,' especially poetry that plays with S.S. uniforms and Hitler's face hallucinated by the postwar German public in a postage stamp, when the ghetto, which carries with it always the perpetual threat of containment and extermination, has only begun to be heard in American poetry. Apropos LXII's haphazard, notational character of the found poem, bearing in mind at the same time the bondage wish combining European concentration camp and U.S. antebellum plantation fantasies, what we are looking at is one example of Jonas's contingent approach to form, typically responding if not basing itself on interruptions of speech. That Jonas, in contrast to Derrida's Artaud, conceives of his poetry as capable of thought is indicated by the initial lines of XXXIV: "thinking in verse / to avoid / the medi- / ocre" (36). Dark colors burst and splay the concluding (root) morpheme and its pun on the painter's ocher pigment. The strong relation between sexuality and thought, the sensuality of the idea, or physicality of the concept, is suggested in LXXXV: "in the age of frescoes he / married the classic image / adding to it his own / outraged agonies / depending from the lower limb / . . . it is / an audacious willingness to experience" (61). It could be that what Jonas is doing exists in the point of departure Derrida declares from Maurice Blanchot's reading of Artaud: "'When we read these pages, we learn what we cannot ever come to learn: that the fact of thinking can only be overwhelming, that what is to be thought is that which turns away from thought within thought, inexhaustibly exhausting itself within thought; that to suffer and to think are linked in a secret way'" (Blanchot qtd. in Derrida 216). With the exception that, in LXII, we also encounter one aspect of Jonas's sense of humor. Where does laughter belong in representations of the experience of oppression, and what are its limits? Pressing the problem of "tragic-heroic tonality" and its obscene comic supplement, Slavoj Zizek puts the question this way: "what, however, if one were to venture a step further and claim that beauty 'as such' in its very notion, is already something strangely abusive: namely, the abuse of the suffering it uses (stages) in order to evoke the so-called 'aesthetic response' in us?" (Totalitarianism 87). For Zizek, such abuse "reaches its limit, in the case of the Holocaust," the more aesthetic its presentation, the more obvious the abuse, making a mockery of fear and pity: "Perhaps this is one way of understanding Adorno's much-quoted 'no poetry after Auschwitz'?" (Totalitarianism 87). Another way of understanding Adorno's injunction could appeal to a formulation by Artaud which, available in a 1958 English translation, suggests the harsh aspect of the struggle for survival undergone by poets like Spicer and Jonas: "[W]hen we speak the word 'life,' it must be understood we are not referring to life as we know it from its surface of fact, but that fragile, fluctuating center which forms never reach. And if there is still one hellish, truly accursed thing in our time, it is our artistic dallying with forms, instead of being like victims burnt at the stake, signaling through the flames" (qtd. in Derrida 225). If we consider Jonas's LXII as obscene comic supplement to the "tragic-heroic tonality" of Sylvia Plath's "Daddy" (first published in her 1965 Ariel, only three years before Exercises for Ear), then we might conclude that Plath's poem stages abuse of suffering as aesthetic affect and correspondingly the poem's conventional, symmetrical 'beauty' might appear suspect, whether or not we follow Claire Brennan's reading which brings "Daddy" close to the masochist fantasy 'overheard' in LXII: "What she does in the poem is, with a weird detachment, to turn the violence against herself so as to show that she can equal her oppressors with her self-inflicted oppression. And this is the strategy of the concentration camps" (qtd. in Zizek, Revolution 253). John Carlos Rowe reminds us that "the 'internal colonization' thesis has been developed by a long list of distinguished scholars in books and articles that are fundamental to American Studies as a discipline" (5-6), and that this thesis encompasses "the definition and regulation of 'proper' sexual 'morality' in order to police lesbians and gays and/or 'purge' the nation of their 'deviance'" (5). It is not impossible, then, to associate what Zizek calls the "concentration camp universe" with the internal colonization of sexual (racial/class) minorities. One might even propose that the poetry of Jack Spicer and Stephen Jonas belongs to the category of holocaust literature, especially if the following passage from Giorgio Agamben's Homo Sacer can be extended to include target subjects existing under socio-political and cultural conditions of "biopolitical sovereignty": "The Jew living under Nazism is the privileged negative referent of a new biopolitical sovereignty and is as such a flagrant case of a Homo Sacer in the sense of a life that may be killed but not sacrificed" (qtd. in Hegarty). But the mention of Plath, like the mention of Bishop and Lowell in Donald Allen's preface to The New American Poetry, or the mention of Roethke and Berryman in Steve McCaffery's Prior to Meaning as prominent representatives of the "metrically regulated poetries of the 1940s" (46), replays a fifty-year-old polemic in American poetry, and many of the same features of what might be called a period style can also be found in O'Hara's poetry. The variation in O'Hara is his mock-heroic treatment of traditional subjects and pop-art appreciation of ephemerality. In "Ode," for example, a series of disconnected questions subverts any serious expectation occasioned by the poem's time-honored title: "What are you amused by? a crisis / like a cow being put on the payroll / with the concomitant investigations and divinings? / Have you swept the dung from the tracks? / Am I a door?" (31). These questions, which begin to resemble the kind posed to game contestants, are capped by a something like a couplet which halts the first movement: "To be equal? it's the worst! / Are we just muddy instants?" (31). This "muddy instant" might recall Spicer's blink of the transient subject in "Transformations I," though the address to St. Serapion in O'Hara's title poem has the poet comparing his purity to lotus and hyacinth, exploding into bloom "'to keep the filth of life away,' yes, there, even in the heart, where the filth is pumped in and slanders and pollutes and determines" (39). Transcendence, not Spicer's (tramp, or camp) transience, is the motive force operating here. But it is in the "elegy" for James Dean, the most indignant poem in this volume, invoking the gods, whatever pantheon they may belong to in 1950s America, Madison Avenue or Hollywood, "in the empty streets of New York / I am its dirty feet and head / and he is dead" (41), where scatological references are most forcefully made: I speak as one whose filth is like his own, of pride and speed and your terrible example nearer than the siren's speech, a spirit eager for the punishment which is your only recognition. (41). In the next stanza the dreams of rats "are their own, as are the toilets / of a great railway terminal" and this association of the surrounding and inert social mass as subhuman, a void of conformity in contrast to the dead hero, is developed in lines 50-57: the menials who surround him critically, languorously waiting for a final impertinence to rebel and enslave him, starlets and other glittering things in the hog-wallow, lunging mireward in their inane mothlike adoration of niggardly cares and stagnant respects . . . (42). This recycles Pound's Cantos XIV and XV, where soil, mud, dung, sewers, sows, "the great arse-hole, / broken with piles" (62), are enlisted in condemnation of "betrayers of language" and the "slough of unamiable liars" (63), much as O'Hara here uses scatological language to place poet and hero above the polluted multitude of "menials." The poet's own "filth" is his hubris, perhaps a counter-image to the purity of the bursting locus and hyacinth as emblems of lyricism in the title poem. Primary, however, is the declared "tragic-heroic" identification: "Men cry from the grave while they still live / and now I am this dead man's voice, / stammering, a little in the earth" (43). In "The death / that young men hope for," one of a chain of metaphors for what poetry is which begins Spicer's Language ("This ocean, humiliating in its disguises"), a note is struck close to the spirit of "For James Dean" and, perhaps, the concluding poem of O'Hara's volume, "Mayakovsky," if the title can be understood as identifying the persona that speaks "the catastrophe of my personality" (51) in association with the popular legend of the Russian's poet's suicide as caused by the failure of a revolution. "'Arf,' says Sandy," the opening line of the third in a suite of nine "Love Poems" in Language, which might recall the comic-strip world of 1960s pop artists or the reported speech of seals in San Francisco bay, but attention to the many references to dogs across the nine-poem section discloses a darker dimension, where "Sandy growls like a wolf" and "Death is a dog and Little Orphan Annie / My own Eurydice" in the third poem; "wolf with / the same toy gun" in the fourth poem; the seventh poem's opening line, "The howling dog in my mind says 'Surrender'" and lines 8-9, "The dog / In my heart howls continuously at you" culminate with the deceptively gleeful: I do not know where my heart is. My heart's in the highlands My heart is not here My heart's in the highlands A-chasing the deer. Dog Of my heart groans, howls Blind to guesses" (25). Levity in the thick of the thought of fatality. The dog in these poems read allegorically, like Dante's leopard, wolf and greyhound, emblematizes instinct, drives-especially the death-drive, "Thanatos, the death-plant in the skull" (12)-inarticulate animality, slavish abasement, helplessness and powerlessness. The fourth of the "Love Poems" begins, "'If you don't believe in god, don't quote / him,' Valery once said when he was / about to give up poetry," and ends on these caustic lines: "It is deadly hard to worship god, star, / and totem. Deadly easy / To use them like worn-out condoms / spattered by your own gleeful, crass, / and unworshipping / Wisdom" (22). The argument in these poems and a thematic running throughout Language is the positioning of poetry as religion but without appeals to aestheticism, the irreducible social real entering in multiple plays with the sport of baseball, the JFK assassination, supermarket parking lots, and compressed in the sparse, minimalist protest: "I / Can- / not / accord / sympathy / to / those / who / do / not / recognize / The human crisis" (13). The "scatotheological thematic" that Derrida reads in Artaud appears in Spicer in the second of the "Love Poems": For you I would build a whole new universe around myself. This isn't shit it is poetry. Shit Enters into it only as an image. The shit the ghostes feasted on in the Odyssey When Odysseus gave them one dry fly and made them come up for something important Food. "For you I would build a whole new universe," the ghosts all cried, starving. (20). Reading Artaud, Derrida asks: "Why is this original alienation conceived as pollution, obscenity, 'filthiness,' etc.? (228). His eventual answer interprets in Artaud an equation of God and defecation, paraphrasing the French savant: "God is of my own creation, my double who slipped into the difference that separates me from my origin, that is, into the nothing that opens my history" (229). Derrida continues: "This history of God is thus the history of the work as excrement. Scato-logy itself. The work, as excrement, supposes separation and is produced within separation" (229). Spicer invokes the Odyssey to project a consonant nexus of associations between the sacred and profane. The dog functions as a liminal figure of abjection and makes available a comic take on the fundamental estrangement written into every line of the "dark forest of words" in Language. A remark by Zizek about David Fincher's 1999 film, The Fight Club, suggests one more reading of the scatological in Spicer, and one that cannot be associated with O'Hara's poems, though possibly with masochism in Jonas. As Zizek observes, "there is another dimension at work in self-beating: the subject's scatological (excremental) identification, which is equivalent to adopting the position of the proletarian who has nothing to lose" (Revolution 252). In Spicer, such self-beating--tied to the whipping-post, in the words of an old blues lyric--the very possibility of life itself conceived as smear, appears in the passage: "If I move my finger through a / candleflame, I know that there / is nothing there. But if I hold my / finger there a few minutes longer, / It blisters. / This is an act of will and the flame is / is not really there for the candle, I / Am writing my own will" (62). The after-image of the self is reduced to the grapheme of the cursive letter "I" and imagined as occupying the space between the flame of a nuclear blast and the shadow of human remains "photographed" on concrete in Japan. Hiroshima, Walden Pond, Hitler and the Dead Kennedy are invoked in the book's concluding poems, ending, or almost ending, on a joke in the penultimate poem, telling an anecdote of a German postmaster refusing to rescind a new postage stamp where the image of Hitler is 'seen' by the German people in the tiny picture of an oak tree. As Alain Badiou reminds us, "the reality of the inimitable is constant imitation, and by dint of seeing Hitlers everywhere we forget that he is dead, and that what is happening before our eyes is the creation of new singularities of Evil" (64). The concluding poem repeats twice the denial of mockery, "Love is not mocked, whatever use / you put to it. Words are also not mocked" (66), then negates this denial in the closing lines: "The dark forest / of words lets some light from / its branches. Mocking them, / the deep leaves / That time leaves us / Words, loves" (66). Life is a bad joke in Language, a mockery of the love of language that is poetry. The concluding poem of Jonas's Exercises for Ear illustrates the mutual sphere of influence and actual contact between Spicer and Jonas, and it might be added that, according to the former poet's biographers, Spicer appears in one of the first, or "the very first of O'Hara's celebrated 'I-do-this, I-do-that' poems": "Jack, Earl and Someone drift / guiltily in. 'I knew they were gay / the minute I laid eyes on them!' screams John. / How ashamed they are of us! we hope" (Ellingham and Killian 64). Jonas's book ends with a joke at the expense of 'straight' couples: "(Jack): / strange abt women / when they discover you / on to their secret; they never / trust you / again alone / w/ their husbands" (100). The drag queen whose reported speech in CXXIII climaxes with the one explicit scatological reference in Jonas's book is identified by the initial "j" ("give 'j' couple black beauties / & her poetry comes spillin' out / all over the place"), and though the initial might stand for John Wieners or Joe Dunn or Jonas him/herself or anyone, for that matter, remembering that in 1959 Spicer edited a literary magazine in San Francisco with Fran Herndon called "J" named after both Spicer and Spicer's lover, Jim Alexander, as well as Fran Herndon's son, Jay, in addition to which Fran's husband was also named Jim (Ellingham and Killian 164-5), it is tempting to associate one possible source for Jack's joke quoted by Jonas with the gender-slippage hilariously underscored in CXXIII: 'yeah, honey-all-them-lames out-on-north-beach-when- its-cool-go-lookin'-in-Rexal's-under-m&m- candies-for-their-stash-but- baby-some-queen-&-her-ditty-bop- done-come-in-&- bought-out-all-them- m&m-candies-"she-it" ' (78). If Spicer's Language closes by pressing apart the word poet, "Being a /poet/ a / disyllable in a world of monosyllables / Awakened by the distance between the /o/ and the /e/ / The earth quakes" (66), which concentration on the word itself contrasts sharply with O'Hara's grandiloquent and rhetorical image of the poet in "For James Dean," "Welcome me, if you will, / as the ambassador of a hatred / who knows its cause" (41), Jonas presses apart the word "shit" and engraves its common colloquial, emphatic (country) pronunciation into a complex disyllable proposing gender as crossing or superimposing of "she" and "it" in which there is no "he," no "him," no "his," tantamount to no "man," no "father," no "law". In one split word, we find ourselves soiled with the thought of liberation in the experience of worthlessness apropos Artaud: "'Dear Friends, What you took to be my works were only my waste matter'" (qtd. in Derrida 229). Here, at least, for Jonas, neither man nor culture exist. For the reader who suffocates among the manifold inscriptions of masculinist dictates and controls in traditional, authoritative, patriarchal poetry, CXXIII might be said to end with a happy play on pronouns. "The theater of cruelty is to be born by separating death from birth and by erasing the name of man" (Derrida 293). By appealing to the thesis of the internal colony, and by suggesting that the category of holocaust literature be extended to include poets like Jack Spicer and Stephen Jonas, I am proposing a view of postwar American poetry that might borrow the title from the English translation of Tadeusz Borowski's This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen. After all, the title page of Exercises for Ear reads: "being a / Primer for the Beginner / in the / American Idiom / by STEPHEN JONAS / Gentleman." Spicer's biographers detect the gallows humor behind the poet's signature "in a huge muddy scrawl of maroon" on the cover of the first edition of Language, published shortly after poet had been fired from his part-time research position, and only source of support, at the Berkeley campus of the University of California: "With what mixture of bitterness and self-loathing did Spicer arrange with Graham Mackintosh to feature the cover of Language (July-September 1951) on the first edition jacket of his own book with the same name. In this issue of the journal Language, Spicer's only professional publication had appeared while he was still studying at Minnesota" (Ellingham and Killian 290-1). Spicer's design for the cover of this 66-page volume, published less than two months before his fatal collapse into coma, can be viewed both as an act of self-mutilation aimed at defiling his first and only assertion of professional identity, and the primitive, manual energy of the scrawled title and signature itself as an uncanny premonition of an intensifying boundary condition between the practice of poetry as lived environment and laboratory research paradigms in the contemporary American academy. Deleuze and Guattari point to the way that "any number of 'ghetto languages' set American English in variation" and further, that "American English could not have constituted itself without this linguistic labor of the minorities" (102-3). Reminding us that "[t]he notion of minority is very complex, with musical, literary, linguistic, as well as juridical and political, references," they write: "Minor authors are foreigners in their own tongue. If they are bastards, if they experience themselves as bastards, it is due not to a mixing or intermingling of languages but rather to a subtraction and variation of their own language by stretching tensors through it" (105). The line in the fourth poem of the "Phonemics" section in Language, "None of you bastards / Knows how Charlie Parker died" (52) can be cited as evident identification with the auto-destruction of the pathbreaking saxophonist, and that it is followed by "And / dances now in some brief kingdom," a clear allusion to the "mid-kingdom" between musical instrument and corpse of a colony "quick with flies" in Hart Crane's "Black Tambourine," only reinforces this identification with the colonized other. But this otherness, in the case of minoritarian social identity in the internal colony, cannot be understood without continually problematizing sexual and gender, racial and ethnic, class and economic differences. The labor of locating the lines of force in an imperial culture and situating within the "civilizing" operation of its institutions a policy of containment, if not extermination, of its marginal elements, is one of the urgent tasks for contemporary criticism. Works Cited Badiou, Alain. Ethics. Trans. Peter Hallward. London: Verso, 2002. Deleuze, Gilles and Félix Guattari. A Thousand Plateaus. 1987. Trans. Brian Massumi. London: Continuum, 2003. Derrida, Jacques. Writing and Difference. Trans. Alan Bass. London: Routledge, 2004. Ellingham, Lewis and Kevin Killian. Poet Be Like God. Hanover: Wesleyan UP, 1998. Hegarty, Paul. Bataille, Agamben and the Holocaust. Slought.org Audio File. April 20, 2001. April 15, 2006. . Jonas, Stephen. Selected Poems. Ed. Joseph Torra. Hoboken: Talisman House, 1994. McCaffery, Steve. Prior to Meaning. Evanston: Northwestern UP, 2001. O'Hara, Frank. Meditations in an Emergency. 1957. New York: Grove Press, 1967. Pound, Ezra. A Draft of XXX Cantos. 1948. New York: New Directions, 1997. Ross, Andrew. The Chicago Gangster Theory of Life. London: Verso, 1996. Rowe, John Carlos. Literary Culture and U.S. Imperialism. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2000. Spicer, Jack. Language. San Francisco: White Rabbit Press, 1965. --. Vancouver Lectures. Pennsound Audio File. June 13-17, 1965. April 15, 2006. . Volosinov, V.N. "Reported Speech." Readings in Russian Poetics. 1971. Trans. Ladislav Matejka and I.R. Titunik. Chicago: Dalkey Archive, 2002. 149-75. Ziaek, Slavoj. Did Somebody Say Totalitarianism? London: Verso, 2001. --. Revolution at the Gates. London: Verso, 2002. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 23:15:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: working class poetry/poetry and place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://lolifer.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 00:03:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Hoerman Subject: Re: conferences for young writers? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 2 in Boston Harvard has a summer program. Also, the Joiner Center has summer programs. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:35:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, Mark Wallace, yes, of course. I mean the content of Bukowski's poems was understood I thought. But talking about who reads him, and when they read him, and where they may go after reading him was really the issue. Should he have written what he wrote? Yes, just as everyone should write what they write, despite all of the PC mesh-netting around the big old bird cage we seem to be flying around in. It's SO DIFFICULT to write or talk about Bukowski for the very fact that he wrote as he wrote about women and everyone acts like he was a BAD MAN for doing so. Writing poems does not, canNOT make you terrible, it's soldiers invading nations while everyone's in bed asleep we need to reserve for that finger pointing. But by the way, all of his poems were not about women. And by the way being a gay man I cannot say for sure I'm in my element here but, hey, the guy liked to eat pussy and he wrote about eating pussy. Big FRIGGON deal! And some women apparently LIKED the way he ate pussy because Charles Bukowski ate a lot of pussy in his day. Am I an asshole for saying this? People like sex, people NEED sex, sex is great, sex is fantastic! You KNOW you like it, you KNOW you want it! And Charles Bukowski knew about you liking and wanting without ever having met you! Ginsberg wrote about eating asshole. Is it BECAUSE he wrote about male on male asshole eating that we can say it's okay? It's unfair really, is what I'm trying to say, that gay men are supported for eating ass, when Bukowski gets hammered for eating pussy. And, I'd very much like to read what Basinski has written on Bukowski. But let me say too Mark, for you to say that working class issues cannot take an automatic linkage is missing the mailman's point. And you know what? Bukowski talked about sex, and talked about women JUST like all the men in my family working in factories, and working in other shithole jobs talk. Are they terrible? No. And I'll tell you, the women in my family have jobs, and are FAR MORE aware of the inequality of male/female rights than women with more money because the women in my family bust their asses 24/7. To think working class women are wilted lilies hiding from big old mean Mr. Bukowski is just silly. My grandmother would have busted him over the head with a frying pan if she had finally heard enough! The people who have always had the most fear around Bukowski are upper middle class folks. He's a scary guy to people who are not used to hearing someone speak in a frank manner, that is, with few manners. Where does that lack of manners come from? Well, I'd say it comes from getting shit on from above all your life and equating manners with money and needing to take the little bit of fucking power you can grab which is speaking your mind. That was Bukowski, taking power, otherwise we wouldn't be spending so much goddamned time talking about him. He took from the world and said IT'S MINE, I CAN DO THIS, FUCK YOU! And he openly defied you to say that he couldn't! That's really quite remarkable I think! Marcus, okay, thanks for the Jonathan Williams excerpt. But, if you look a tiny bit closer at what I was writing, I was writing about the Outsider Art which is IN HIS HOME BY OTHER PEOPLE. I was not at all referring to Jonathan Williams's poems. To agree or not about art being elitist is an argument that seems kind of beside the point when we try to funnel in the idea that we are ALL creative creatures, each and every human being. Now, if you want to discuss the art world, the art schools, and all the other institutions which branch out from that original source we all possess, fine. But to have a blanket statement that Art Is Elitist just doesn't work. Which is exactly WHY I brought up the Outsider Artists in the first place, which you decided was Jonathan Williams when really I was talking about the artwork in his home by others. Beautifying things is not elitist, it's as necessary as air. And we all must, no matter what class, or whatever other differences. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 09:33:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: George Bowering, Charles Carroll, and Camille Martin at the Art Bar (Toronto) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII for anyone in toronto this tuesday, a reminder about my reading at the art bar with george bowering and charles carroll. the art bar has an open mike afterward, so bring yr poems! George Bowering Charles Carroll Camille Martin Tuesday, May 9, 8:00 pm The Art Bar at the Victory Cafe 581 Markham St. Toronto George Bowering George Bowering has authored more than 80 books and his work has been translated into French, Spanish, Italian, German, Chinese and Romanian. His writing includes books of poetry, fiction, autobiography, biography, popular history, collaborations and youth fiction. His award-winning titles include: George Bowering Selected, Rocky Mountain Foot, The Gangs of Kosmos, Burning Water, and, His Life: A Poem. George Bowering has received two bpNichol Chapbook Awards for poetry, a Canadian Authors' Association Award for poetry, and Governor General's awards for poetry and for fiction. The University of British Columbia awarded him an honorary degree and their 75th Anniversary Award for distinguished alumni. He also holds an honorary degree from the University of Western Ontario, is an Officer of the Order of Canada, a member of the Order of British Columbia, and was Canada's first Parliamentary Poet Laureate. Charles Carroll Born in New York City, Charles Carroll moved to Toronto in 2005 to be with his Canadian wife. He is completing a PhD at CUNY Graduate Center. His poems have appeared in such magazines as The Brooklyn Review, The Boston Review, and Prism International. Camille Martin Camille Martin recently moved from the ruins of New Orleans to live in Toronto. She holds a Ph.D in English from Louisiana State University. For several years she co-curated The Lit City Poetry Series in New Orleans. She is the author of several chapbooks, the most recent of which is Sesame Kiosk (Potes & Poets Press). camille camille martin 156 brandon avenue, #403 toronto, on m6h2e4 416.538.6005 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:35:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Every time I hear this discussion about art and entertainment, I remember=20 Bernard Shaw's phrase that "Englishmen think they are experiencing art when=20= they=20 are unconfortable." Ciao, Murat In a message dated 5/6/06 11:19:41 AM, marcus@DESIGNERGLASS.COM writes: > On 5 May 2006 at 19:06, David Harrison Horton wrote: > > So to use an analogy, if music isn't played in the concert hall, but > > is made > > by poor and working class people in their homes, then that is not > > music? >=20 > Not all music is art, any more than all writing is art. The term you use i= s=20 > too > broad in this instance. Lots of music is entertainment, not art. So, while= =20 > the > poor and working class people certainly make music in their homes, the > question is whether they are making art. Not all concert hall music is art= , > either -- I heard the Cleveland Orchestra in Severance Hall one year phone > in a performance of Mozart's Jupiter that made it less even than > entertainment. >=20 > > I do not doubt my own privelege in my appreciation of and interest > > in "difficult" texts, but I am far from thinking that the poetry I > > write and read emcompasses all poetry. Your definition of poetry/art > > under-reaches and > > fails to include a wide range of work made by and for > > non-elitists. >=20 > Maybe so -- but if I understand "work made by and for non-elitists" > correctly, I call that work "entertainment" because it is neither intended= =20 > as > nor perceived as "art" by the folks who make and enjoy it. >=20 > Once again, art is an elitist occupation by its nature, by necessity. The > point of distinguishing art from non-art is to appeal to people who are > looking for the art experience. Among those looking for the art experience= , > some will mistake the place or the brand or something else for the art > experience. Appreciating art requires a kind of temperament that is not > universal, and enough education in the conventions of the arts within the > context of the culture to understand the intentional difference between > using different colors of paint to protect the house from the weather and > using different colors of paint to make art; between music to entertain an= d > music to make art; between language to order bricks and language to make > art; and so on. >=20 > > I agree that much of what passes as art (any genre) is elitist, but > > I think there is a wider scope than what makes it into the gallery, the > > concert hall, or the Paris Review. >=20 > I agree there is a wider scope than gallery, hall, review -- but not so > wide a scope that any collection of family members whacking away > at the kazoo is "making art". >=20 > > On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: > > Art as commodity is problematic.=A0 BUT, don't you think that today > > with the LITERALLY thousands and thousands in art schools, in writing > > programs, etc., not to mention the tens of thousands who have > > already graduated, that we're hitting the BEAUTIFUL WATER MARK?< >=20 > This confuses "elite" with mere number, which I think mistakes entirely th= e > notion of an elite in art, or in any field of knowledge. I hold that there= =20 > is > "good elite" and "bad elite". The "bad elite" is exclusive, it seeks to=20 > limit the > number of "us" and glories in the notion that there is a majority "them" w= ho > are not good enough. The "good elite" is inclusive, it seeks excellence > wherever it is to be found, irrespective of number or otherness. >=20 > But I think you're wrong to hold that mere tens of thousands of graduates=20= in > the liberal arts out of the hundreds of millions who make up just the US i= s > still a pretty small number. I don't hold that the number matters, but if=20 > you > do, then I want to point out that tens of thousands is a small number in > context. >=20 > > I mean to say, we really ARE moving past the ability to even keep > > track of who everyone is at this point so many of us, everywhere.=A0 > > Meaning > > that GROWING number of people who are believing the CAN be artists > > and writers, believe they ARE, it's hard to see an elite standing > > firm.< >=20 > But the elite, at least the "good elite", never does "stand firm". I'm not > advocating an exclusive elite that keeps the poor folk out; I'm advocating > an inclusive elite that seeks to find excellence where it exists. But > excellence, not just any old crap that's been ignored by the "bad elite".=20 > Not > only is propinquity not enough, being ignored, or dismissed, or even > denigrated by the "bad elite" is not enough to make something art. >=20 > > This is off the subject, but the whole "Outsider Art" world is > > pretty much working class and poorer.=A0 Jonathan Williams has quite an > > amazing collection in his home in North Carolina I've been > > fortunate enough to see firsthand.=A0 Georgia Blizzard, etc. > > The very fact they are classified as Outside is the question, > > right?=A0 Why Outside?=A0 And Outside what by the way? >=20 > Yeah, sure, tell me that >=20 > priapean is a measure > consisting of a glyconic > and a pherecratean (qqv) > separated by a diaeresis >=20 > is not elitist! Come on! Look at that poem by Jonathan Williams and > tell me that Tupac's crew would find it to be art. You know that isn't > right. And that's just the very first poem found on the first page of the > google search for "jonathan williams metafours". You even have to > know what a metaphor is and what a quatrain is and a little bit about > meter and scansion to appreciate the joke of "metafours".=A0 However > "outside" Mr Williams and his critics and appreciators deem him to > be, he ain't so far outside but what you have to be in the elite to get > him. >=20 > Marcus >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 11:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't followed every single posting on this topic, so I'll restrict myself to the snippet of the debate this e-mail presents. I would agree to a certain extent with Marcus Bales that great art, in general, is born from an elitist act as it tries to transcend mundane expressions and arrive at a new truth. At the same time I am with David Horton when he asks - "if music isn't played in the concert hall, but is made by poor and working class people in their homes, then that is not music?" Firstly, I fail to see why the "working class" can't engage in elitist acts. Secondly, trying to read the word "elite" in its conventional sense is a conformism that won't help this debate. Take Hungarian musican Bela Bartok for example. Bartok, alongwith a small group of music-enthusiast friends, explored the rural areas of Hungary and Romania gathering folk-music that was essentially run by the working class. From this compilation was born modern Hungarian folk which to a great extent was classical music too. I'll present a second example form the BAUL singers of Bengal, India. This community, the BAULs, are far sub-altern than the "working class". They are nomadic saintly beggers, who had a great humanitarian philosophy of their own, carried just a mono-string instrument and went singing and begging from one village to another. Their music was rich and their lyrics - deeply philosophical and metaphysical poetry. Tagore absorbed from the BAUL tradition enormously and created a new "elite" lyric and music about a century back. This music today, called Rabindrasangeet, which is really a musical rendering of rich verse, assumes the status of classical Bengali music. The BAUL tradition co-exists too. Purna Das Baul, a leading exponent of this tradition sang on stage with Joan Baez and Bob Dylan at Berkeley campus in the sixties.Today, in Calcutta, urban bands, equipped with jazz instruments, perform their own version of BAUL songs. So, while the tradition still lives, the boundaries between what we call "working class" and "elite" are fast dissolving. I'm sure this forum could throw in hundreds of such examples from other cultures as well. Aryanil Mukherjee www.kaurab.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art > On 5 May 2006 at 19:06, David Harrison Horton wrote: >> So to use an analogy, if music isn't played in the concert hall, but >> is made >> by poor and working class people in their homes, then that is not >> music? > > Not all music is art, any more than all writing is art. The term you use > is too > broad in this instance. Lots of music is entertainment, not art. So, while > the > poor and working class people certainly make music in their homes, the > question is whether they are making art. Not all concert hall music is > art, > either -- I heard the Cleveland Orchestra in Severance Hall one year phone > in a performance of Mozart's Jupiter that made it less even than > entertainment. > >> I do not doubt my own privelege in my appreciation of and interest >> in "difficult" texts, but I am far from thinking that the poetry I >> write and read emcompasses all poetry. Your definition of poetry/art >> under-reaches and >> fails to include a wide range of work made by and for >> non-elitists. > > Maybe so -- but if I understand "work made by and for non-elitists" > correctly, I call that work "entertainment" because it is neither intended > as > nor perceived as "art" by the folks who make and enjoy it. > > Once again, art is an elitist occupation by its nature, by necessity. The > point of distinguishing art from non-art is to appeal to people who are > looking for the art experience. Among those looking for the art > experience, > some will mistake the place or the brand or something else for the art > experience. Appreciating art requires a kind of temperament that is not > universal, and enough education in the conventions of the arts within the > context of the culture to understand the intentional difference between > using different colors of paint to protect the house from the weather and > using different colors of paint to make art; between music to entertain > and > music to make art; between language to order bricks and language to make > art; and so on. > >> I agree that much of what passes as art (any genre) is elitist, but >> I think there is a wider scope than what makes it into the gallery, the >> concert hall, or the Paris Review. > > I agree there is a wider scope than gallery, hall, review -- but not so > wide a scope that any collection of family members whacking away > at the kazoo is "making art". > > > On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: >> Art as commodity is problematic. BUT, don't you think that today >> with the LITERALLY thousands and thousands in art schools, in writing >> programs, etc., not to mention the tens of thousands who have >> already graduated, that we're hitting the BEAUTIFUL WATER MARK?< > > This confuses "elite" with mere number, which I think mistakes entirely > the > notion of an elite in art, or in any field of knowledge. I hold that there > is > "good elite" and "bad elite". The "bad elite" is exclusive, it seeks to > limit the > number of "us" and glories in the notion that there is a majority "them" > who > are not good enough. The "good elite" is inclusive, it seeks excellence > wherever it is to be found, irrespective of number or otherness. > > But I think you're wrong to hold that mere tens of thousands of graduates > in > the liberal arts out of the hundreds of millions who make up just the US > is > still a pretty small number. I don't hold that the number matters, but if > you > do, then I want to point out that tens of thousands is a small number in > context. > >> I mean to say, we really ARE moving past the ability to even keep >> track of who everyone is at this point so many of us, everywhere. >> Meaning >> that GROWING number of people who are believing the CAN be artists >> and writers, believe they ARE, it's hard to see an elite standing >> firm.< > > But the elite, at least the "good elite", never does "stand firm". I'm not > advocating an exclusive elite that keeps the poor folk out; I'm advocating > an inclusive elite that seeks to find excellence where it exists. But > excellence, not just any old crap that's been ignored by the "bad elite". > Not > only is propinquity not enough, being ignored, or dismissed, or even > denigrated by the "bad elite" is not enough to make something art. > >> This is off the subject, but the whole "Outsider Art" world is >> pretty much working class and poorer. Jonathan Williams has quite an >> amazing collection in his home in North Carolina I've been >> fortunate enough to see firsthand. Georgia Blizzard, etc. >> The very fact they are classified as Outside is the question, >> right? Why Outside? And Outside what by the way? > > Yeah, sure, tell me that > > priapean is a measure > consisting of a glyconic > and a pherecratean (qqv) > separated by a diaeresis > > is not elitist! Come on! Look at that poem by Jonathan Williams and > tell me that Tupac's crew would find it to be art. You know that isn't > right. And that's just the very first poem found on the first page of the > google search for "jonathan williams metafours". You even have to > know what a metaphor is and what a quatrain is and a little bit about > meter and scansion to appreciate the joke of "metafours". However > "outside" Mr Williams and his critics and appreciators deem him to > be, he ain't so far outside but what you have to be in the elite to get > him. > > Marcus > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.5/333 - Release Date: 5/5/2006 > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:09:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: Poetry @ Riverside, CA, Orange Blossom Festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Riverside, CA, Orange Blossom Festival Details of the reading can be accessed on the web through the museum's website, www.riversideartmuseum.org and http://www.epicentermagazine.org/audio.htm. Reading Schedule Saturday May 20 12:20-12:40- Joel Lamore 12:40-1- Jonathan Ponder 1:00-1:30 Jackie Joice 1:30- 1:50- Angela Chaos 1:50 -2:20- Sholeh Wolpe 2:20-2:50- Brandon Cesmat 3:00-3:30- Terry Hertzler 3:30-4:00- Lori Davis 4:00-4:20- Mr. P 4:20- 4:40- King Daddy 4:40-5:00- Betty Nude 5:00-6:00 Michael C. Ford Sunday May 21 12:00-12:15- Ryan Peeters 12:15-12:30- Dana Stamps III 12:30-12:45- Brandy Burrows 12:45-1:00- S. Alaska Whelan 1:00-1:30- Lee Balan 1:30- 2:00- Cheno 2:10-2:30- Johnny Fathom 3:00- Nancy Scott Campbell 3:30-3:45- Billy Lobo 3:45-4:00- Mary Copeland 4:00- Ruth Nolan 4:30- Maureen Alsop 5:00- Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 13:35:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: <000b01c671ec$6998a5f0$5f01a8c0@inspiration> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 May 2006 at 11:39, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Firstly, I fail to see why the "working class" can't engage > in elitist acts.< Succinctly put! That's exactly my point: the kind of elitism we're talking about in art is not an economic elitism. There's no reason that the "working class" or "the poor" can't engage in art if they do engage in art. But it's not enough merely to say that it's art; it has actually to be art -- and that means it must be both intended as art by the artist and perceived as art by the audience. And _that_ means that it has to conform to the conventions of what art is, at that time and place, at least to the extent that one can see that where the conventions are challenged, bent, or broken, they are so _on purpose_, and not merely from ignorance. > Take Hungarian musican Bela Bartok for example. Bartok, > alongwith a small group of music-enthusiast friends, explored > the rural areas of Hungary and Romania gathering folk-music > that was essentially run by the working class. From this > compilation > was born modern Hungarian folk which to a great extent was > classical music too.< I may agree with what you're saying here, but I can't yet tell because I can't tell what it is you're saying is the art: was it the folk-music itself, was it the art of selecting this instead of that folk-music, or was it birthing modern Hungarian folk and classical music, or was it the actual modern Hungarian folk and/or classical music itself? > I'll present a second example form the BAUL singers of Bengal, > India. > This community, the BAULs, are far sub-altern than the "working > class". > They are nomadic saintly beggers, who had a great humanitarian > philosophy > of their own, carried just a mono-string instrument and went > singing > and begging from one village to another. Their music was rich and > their > lyrics - deeply philosophical and metaphysical poetry. Tagore > absorbed > from the BAUL tradition enormously and created a new "elite" lyric > and music about a century back. This music today, called > Rabindrasangeet, > which is really a musical rendering of rich verse, assumes the > status of > classical > Bengali music. The BAUL tradition co-exists too. Purna Das Baul, a > leading > exponent of this tradition sang on stage with Joan Baez and Bob > Dylan at > Berkeley campus in the sixties.Today, in Calcutta, urban bands, > equipped > with jazz instruments, perform their own version of BAUL songs. > So, while the tradition still lives, the boundaries between what we > call > "working class" and "elite" are fast dissolving. I think this again confuses the meaning of "elite". Elite as we're using it here in this discussion doesn't mean, at least I don't use it to mean "economically advantaged" as opposed to "working class". The economic class of an individual may limit or not, may encourage or not, his or her artistic ambitions, but all artistic ambitions are necessarily elitist: they are attempts to take the ordinary and make it extraordinary, and the extraordinary is ... (wait for it) ... elite! I also hold that people with economic advantages have a better chance of appreciating art because they've got anything from a little bit to a whole lot more time to investigate, learn about, and appreciate art than one does if one is working blue-collar paycheck-to-paycheck jobs that leave one pretty wrung out at the end of one's shift. But that's not a comment on whether those individuals, if they were given the time, are UNABLE to appreciate art -- it's just that they don't have the time or the inclination in their present circumstances. They don't have time or inclination for "working class poetry" any more than for "high-falutin poetry". They've got no time for poetry at all, and they don't care if the writer is working class or not. On 6 May 2006 at 20:35, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > I was writing about the > Outsider Art which is IN HIS HOME BY OTHER PEOPLE. I was not > at all referring to Jonathan Williams's poems.< Pity, since the number of people who know what Jonathan Williams has as art on the walls of his home constitute -- you guessed it! -- an elite, and a very small elite at that! So no matter what kind of art it is, your claim that it is whatever it is can only mean that only you and a few other people can know about it, and appreciate it. The rest of us will just have to take your word for it -- which is about as bad-elitist as it gets, it seems to me. It is exclusive in the bad sense in that it means that only "we few" can really know and "you all" have got to tough out just believing. So it seems that your point, then, was that since you know Jonathan Williams keeps a particular kind of art in his home, and he knows, that therefore there are no elites? That's a sort of self-destroying argument since there is only that small elite who knows what kind of art Jonathan Williams keeps in his home. > To agree or not about art being elitist is an argument that seems > kind of beside the point when we try to funnel in the idea that we are > ALL creative creatures, each and every human being.< Even if I agree that humans are all, every one of them, creative creatures, so what? That doesn't mean that all humans are artists, and it doesn't mean that everything that any human being makes is a piece of art. There is a difference between "being creative" and "making art". One may "be creative" in teaching or engineering or marketing and it's still not art. As it happens, I don't agree that every human being is creative. Some people are just not creative; others are not funny; others are not smart or good looking or athletic or or or or lack any number of other traits and characteristics. So what? Lack of athleticism doesn't make one less human, and neither does lack of creativity. > But to have a blanket statement that Art Is Elitist just doesn't work.< I think it does work because there are far more people who have little or no interest in experiencing art than there are people who want to experience it -- and far far more than there are people who want to make art. Making art is an elitist act because most people just can't do it, and even among those who can do it not all of them get a chance to. Further, among all the people who want to appreciate art, not all of them get a chance to, and most of them don't get the chance even to know whether they do want to appreciate art or not, much less be able to explain why Erik Satie is making art and Eric Clapton is making entertainment. > Beautifying things is not elitist, it's as necessary as air. And we > all must, no matter what class, or whatever other differences.< Even if we could agree on what "beauty" meant, "beautifying things" is not art. Art is not a matter of just prettying things up. Besides, what a particularly bad argument for you to make, considering that what the working class thinks is "beautifying things" consists largely of buying sentimental crap at Walmart. Is that really what you're going to rest your assertion about working class art on? Chinese knock-off imports from Walmart? Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 10:46:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howdy CA: I appreciate the points you're making, and I'm not at all trying to simplify the issue of Bukowski's work, just, I think, to look at some of the complications of the issue. Although I myself grew up in a middle class way, many of the people in my family prior to my father's generation were rural working class in the south and west, and significantly in Texas, from say about 1910-1960. Some were Christians, some were communists, some, if you can credit it, were Christian communists; they worked on farms or on highways or at hotel desks and so on. They were often hotly political, but much more reticent on the subject of sexuality, primarily I would guess because of the influence of Christianity on their lives. I say this not to approve of my family background more than yours (yours sound more exciting, frankly), but because I think we need to be careful of suggesting that there is one sole "working class way" of men speaking about women. I don't think that's quite true simply because what it means to be working class contains a number of other elements, including what kind of work you do, where you work, cultural background, the effects of religion, etc. Working class Italians, Germans, Irish, Scots, Dominicans don't all share the same perspective necessarily. I like the point you make about working class women hardly being the passive, wilting victims of the kind of rough male language you're celebrating. Tricia Rose in a book called Black Noise looks at a similar issue in hiphop; she's skeptical about some white responses to sexual, sexist language on the part of male rappers, and she points out that within the world of hiphop, there are many women musicians who are willing to give the sometimes brutal insults right back at the guys who have launched them. But she also goes on to say that just because there is a response of that kind by women within the hiphop community, that doesn't mean that the problems caused by these types of attitudes are sufficiently resolved; the effects of them linger both within the hiphop community and also beyond it, because of course the music is reaching beyond that community. Thus, perhaps, it's useful to remember that for every working class woman who stands up to men and hits them with a frying pan, there is another woman who has been more brutalized in the same context. And for every middle or upper class woman who turns up her nose because Bukowski's directness offends her rareified sensibility, there's another woman of similar background who's found herself at the mercy of male violence. And let me add here--crucially--that it's a huge mistake on any of our parts to believe that male violence against women exists primarily among the poor or the working class. Historically, I think it's clear that male violence against women has been an equal opportunity employer. Frankly, Bukowski's work doesn't deal with these problems adequately. But when I say that, that doesn't mean I don't think there are lots of other values to his writing that are worth exploring and celebrating. And as to the stuff about being a bad person, and whether we should write about that, I'm firmly on your side. I wish a lot more of the writers we know would cut back on the moralizing and start recognizing that they too aren't really such nice people, when you get right down to it. That's actually why, on many occasions, I'd rather read Bukowski than, say, Agamben, who truly bores me. Mark Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 20:35:38 EDT From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski First, Mark Wallace, yes, of course. I mean the content of Bukowski's poems was understood I thought. But talking about who reads him, and when they read him, and where they may go after reading him was really the issue. Should he have written what he wrote? Yes, just as everyone should write what they write, despite all of the PC mesh-netting around the big old bird cage we seem to be flying around in. It's SO DIFFICULT to write or talk about Bukowski for the very fact that he wrote as he wrote about women and everyone acts like he was a BAD MAN for doing so. Writing poems does not, canNOT make you terrible, it's soldiers invading nations while everyone's in bed asleep we need to reserve for that finger pointing. But by the way, all of his poems were not about women. And by the way being a gay man I cannot say for sure I'm in my element here but, hey, the guy liked to eat pussy and he wrote about eating pussy. Big FRIGGON deal! And some women apparently LIKED the way he ate pussy because Charles Bukowski ate a lot of pussy in his day. Am I an asshole for saying this? People like sex, people NEED sex, sex is great, sex is fantastic! You KNOW you like it, you KNOW you want it! And Charles Bukowski knew about you liking and wanting without ever having met you! Ginsberg wrote about eating asshole. Is it BECAUSE he wrote about male on male asshole eating that we can say it's okay? It's unfair really, is what I'm trying to say, that gay men are supported for eating ass, when Bukowski gets hammered for eating pussy. And, I'd very much like to read what Basinski has written on Bukowski. But let me say too Mark, for you to say that working class issues cannot take an automatic linkage is missing the mailman's point. And you know what? Bukowski talked about sex, and talked about women JUST like all the men in my family working in factories, and working in other shithole jobs talk. Are they terrible? No. And I'll tell you, the women in my family have jobs, and are FAR MORE aware of the inequality of male/female rights than women with more money because the women in my family bust their asses 24/7. To think working class women are wilted lilies hiding from big old mean Mr. Bukowski is just silly. My grandmother would have busted him over the head with a frying pan if she had finally heard enough! The people who have always had the most fear around Bukowski are upper middle class folks. He's a scary guy to people who are not used to hearing someone speak in a frank manner, that is, with few manners. Where does that lack of manners come from? Well, I'd say it comes from getting shit on from above all your life and equating manners with money and needing to take the little bit of fucking power you can grab which is speaking your mind. That was Bukowski, taking power, otherwise we wouldn't be spending so much goddamned time talking about him. He took from the world and said IT'S MINE, I CAN DO THIS, FUCK YOU! And he openly defied you to say that he couldn't! That's really quite remarkable I think! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:49:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Mad Hatters' Review Readings in Manhattan-- Sunday, May 21st & Thursday, June 1st MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline MHR will launch its 5th issue (due to emerge May 15th) on May 21st, 2-4pm, at The Four-Faced Liar on West 4th Street. NYC editors Carol Novack, Elizabeth Smith, Amy Marie Bucciferro, and Pete Dolack and two contributors= , Bob Heman (Ed/Pub of CLWN WR) and Jennifer Prado will make mad merriment an= d read poetry and prose. The second reading of the Mad Hatters' Poetry, Prose & Anything Goes Readin= g Series will take place on June 1st, 7-9pm, at The KGB Bar on East 4th Street. Poet Edwin Torres and fiction writer Dawn Raffel will read. Actor Doug Shapiro will read a selection of poetry, fiction and whatnots publishe= d by out of state and country writers published in the first 5 issues of MHR. For further information, please see: http://www.madhattersreview.com/events.shtml. -- MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ http://www.webdelsol.com/eSCENE/series20.html http://webdelsol.com/PortalDelSol/pds-interview-mhr.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 17:56:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Bales on "the life of the mind" (was Conrad on Buk) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Marcus--- I'll just respond to one of your points that the others haven't emphasized as much, specifically your use of the phrase "life of the mind". The phrase appears 4 times, and I'd like to investigate how you use this because I think we define it differently. It makes its first appearance in this quote of yours--- M: It's not that the poor understand "all too well" the elitism, it's that they are > not taught to value the "life of the mind" because they're so concerned with just getting from paycheck to paycheck that the life of the mind seems pretty silly and affected -- bougie. C: I don't think it's such an either/or distinction; just because some poor people might consider certain forms of art or writing "silly and affected," doesn't mean that they consider the "life of the mind" silly and affected. In fact, many poor folks I know (and even some folks with more advantageous economic status), make it quite clear that it is specifically what they see as certain IDIOMS, certain STYLES that claim to be 'the life of the mind' they react against--like the fact that in certain circles any claims of native intelligence or wonder are despised unless of course one drops the 'proper' names or cultural references (what constitutes proper of course varies from scene to scene, but in this I think we agree--it does often involve an use of a specialized---or what you may call elite--language). I don't think this has all that much to do with the fact the poor are so concerned getting from paycheck to paycheck; I could just as easily counter that the "middle-class" or rich are often so concerned with investment schemes, retirement funds, or with a "he who dies with the most toys wins" philosophy that they have little time for the "life of the mind" or to "stop and smell the roses" for that matter (even if such 'roses' are strictly imaginary, artistic, like that Marianne Moore line---oh what was it, about imaginary gardens with real toads in it). I personally won't make that argument seriously---I'm just saying it's no less of a generalization than yours, and ultimately I guess we just define "mind" or at least "life of the mind" differently, insofar as I have found many people in my life who don't have to be so addicted to books as others to be as intellectual and stimulating to others' minds as any tenured prof. etc... Its second appearance, here M: Just so -- and most poor folks have not and will not internalize the notion > that the "life of the mind" is more valuable than a new car and a good job > and the like, and they don't have the family or personal resources to try to > have both "the good life" and "a good life" C: Well, again, it depends how you define the "life of the mind" and though I'm sympathetic to the "anti-materialist" or, better, "anti-acquisitive" thrust to your point here, the elitist sense of what "mind" or "life of the mind" is, is something I don't see in life---though I might see it in, say, Ezra Pound or in some LANGUAGE poetry if not so much in Whitman or Bob Dylan. To use another strictly literary reference, Shakespeare may straddle in a way that he can be beloved both by elitists---who see their reflection in him---as well as egalitarians--in a way that could probably prove both your point and mine---i.e. I see Shakespeare as someone who put the two viewpoints in dialogue with each other, and so often the joke is on those 'elitists' who think a highfalutin use of rhetoric and philosophy gives them more access to 'a good life' than the 'shallow fools' that also people his plays as a corrective to this attitude, though I know many people who read Shakespeare differently). But even if one comes to appreciate 'higher art,'and even if one comes to NEED it, whether intrinsically or because one has something to prove, I still have to ask you WHAT exactly such VALUES are that these "poor folks" are missing out on....If you want to play the role of the didactic defender of the lost art of reading elite art on the ground that it will make others better, or even happier, people than they would be without it, you need to do much more to convince me. The third appearance of that phrase appears here M: But what you're > saying is that the poor are correct in their judgment that the life of the mind > is not worth living if the trade-off is poverty. C: That wasn't what I intended to say, though I can understand how it came off like that. I'm questioning your definition of "life of the mind" and what criteria you use to determine whether someone is living it And its 4th (and final) here-- M: if you're poor, even if > you're very talented, you're not very likely to internalize the values of the > life of the mind, and if you're well-off, you still probably won't, but you may; > and if you do, you have a better chance of survival, and even of success. C: What are these values? And why can't someone get them by turning on the radio and hearing "Check Out Your Mind" by Curtis Mayfield? for instance, at least as much as sitting in a poetry class where they discuss the "purposeful purposelessness" of the sublime? I think I've gone on long enough.....Chris ---------- >From: Marcus Bales >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >Date: Fri, May 5, 2006, 1:34 PM > > On 5 May 2006 at 12:12, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >> I can see your point here, but aren't you using the word "elite" in >> two different ways, and conflating them. >> You talk about initiating the economic poor into the intellectual >> and artistic elite >> But you don't talk about initiating the economic rich into the >> intellectual >> and artistic elite (and, from what I see, except in the most amazing >> cases >> of autodidacticism, being part of the economic elite doesn't >> necessarily >> make one part of an artistic or intellectual elite)< > > Well, I hope I'm not using "elite" in two sense and not distinguishing > between them. > > I'm trying to say that the chances of getting initiated into the artistic or > intellectual elite is much better for the economically elite for at least two > reasons: first, the students are more likely to see themselves as worthy of, > and with entry to, the one kind of elite if they're of another kind, and, > second, they're likely to have a lot better exposure to and teaching of the > values and tenets of the intellectual and artistic elite if they're of the > economic elite; and, third of two, they're more likely to see a path to > success in the intellectual or artistic elite, or have the resources to > experiment along the path of that success, if they're already part of the > economic elite. > > I'm not saying that being part of the economic elite makes one part of the > artistic or intellectual elite -- it doesn't, and it can't: there is no > royal road to > learning -- but it sure gives you a better chance at it if you want it. > >> Nor initiating the economic poor into the economic elite (I bring >> this point >> up, because there's an implication in your argument that the poor >> are less >> likely to understand the elitism of art, where in my experience it's >> more >> often the case that poor people understand all to well the elitism >> of what >> they may call "bougie" (is that the spelling?) art, and the >> resistance to it >> has more to do with the usefulness of such art.< > > Art isn't very useful, though, no matter what -- and thinking that it might be > of use in the way a car or a job might be of use is part of the evidence that > they haven't really broken the elitist code, in my judgment. Also, the > economically disadvantaged students don't have the family or personal > resources to support them, or help support them, in any attempt to achieve > any sort of career in the arts, where the bottom rung of the ladder is a good > deal higher and more slippery than in most other professions. My father > used to point out that the 20,000th best plumber in the country can make a > nice living but the 500th best violinist starves. > > You've got to either so believe in yourself and your talent and in the system > that judges and nurtures or dismisses that talent that you're willing to > endure the economic disadvantages (as well as the social ones -- as when > all your friends are buying cars because they're in the plumbing trades and > you're still living with your parents and bumming rides because you're still > learning the violin), or you've got to be incredibly lucky. > > It's not that the poor understand "all too well" the elitism, it's that they are > not taught to value the "life of the mind" because they're so concerned with > just getting from paycheck to paycheck that the life of the mind seems > pretty silly and affected -- bougie. > >> It's not that they can't >> master the code, it's that they are more aware that it is often not >> an economically self-sustaining proposition.< > > Just so -- and most poor folks have not and will not internalize the notion > that the "life of the mind" is more valuable than a new car and a good job > and the like, and they don't have the family or personal resources to try to > have both "the good life" and "a good life". > >> Sorry if I find myself speaking in generalities here, but the >> acute discrepency that is often felt in many poor people between being >> part of an artistic or intellectual elite and the economic realities need to >> be investigated further. There's often a price to be paid for being part >> of an ARTISTIC or intellectual elite, as you seem to be defining it, >> and that price, in contemporary America at least, more often than not >> may lead to people becoming even more economically poverty-stricken >> than they were before and it's understandable that one may not wish to >> continue to create such an art (even if they have been 'initiated,' like, >> say, Caliban)--or consider ways of redefining art and intellectual >> activities in less elitist ways.< > > All very true: we seem to be saying the same thing, in fact. But what you're > saying is that the poor are correct in their judgment that the life of the mind > is not worth living if the trade-off is poverty. It may be that if you > start off in > poverty the notion of continuing in poverty by choice in order to pursue > one's art seems pretty silly if one has the skills to make a living to give up > that living in favor of the same kind of poverty you'd face if you didn't have > any skills. And, of course, if you and your family are pretty well-off, there > may be family resources to help you through the first rough years, and, if > you finally decide to give up you can always get a pretty good job based on > the pretty good education that you got in the pursuit of your art. > > But in the end it all boils down to the same sauce: if you're poor, even if > you're very talented, you're not very likely to internalize the values of the > life of the mind, and if you're well-off, you still probably won't, but you may; > and if you do, you have a better chance of survival, and even of success. > > Marcus > > > >> > On 4 May 2006 at 14:55, David Harrison Horton wrote: >> >> Marcus, >> >> Do you mean to say that the poor & working class kids in my >> East >> >> Oakland >> >> neighborhood are incapable of sharing and articipating in art >> >> because they >> >> haven't been taught to appreciate the elitist mystification >> process >> >> that >> >> John Berger tried to dispell 35 years ago? >> > >> > Not in the least. I mean to say that they are capable of sharing >> and >> > anticipating in art if someone shows them how to -- if someone >> initiates >> > them into the elite. I'm glad to hear you're doing that. In the >> case where >> > there is someone like you there to do it, your kids are not >> intellectually >> > poverty-stricken -- but think of all the kids who ARE >> intellectually poverty- >> > stricken because there is no one like you there to initiate them. >> THEY are >> > incapable of sharing and anticipating art (except in the most >> amazing cases >> > of auto-didacticism) not because they are dumb but because they >> are poor. >> > >> > But to deny that it IS an elite into which you're initiating them >> is not >> merely >> > counter-productive, it's intellectually dishonest. You're fooling >> yourself >> into >> > thinking that poetry is a thing independent of its creation and >> appreciation >> > by people. It's not. Poetry is an artefact of human invention, not >> a thing >> that >> > would exist if there were no people, like gravity or rocks or >> Keith Richard. >> > >> > The writing and appreciation of poetry is indeed an elite >> occupation. What >> > makes it less likely that poor kids or blue-collar kids will write >> or >> appreciate >> > it is a lack of people like you to initiate them. And you, I'm >> sure, have to >> > admit that even out of the kids who take the class not all of them >> actually >> > get it; and of those who get it not all of them become poets. It's >> an elitism >> of >> > choice, and good on you for giving them one. >> > >> > Marcus >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> David Harrison Horton >> >> >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> >> From: Marcus Bales >> >> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >> >> >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski >> >> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:14:01 -0400 >> >> >> >> Wrong, wrong, wrong. Art is an elitist project of necessity. >> The >> >> very notion >> >> of presenting some words in context to mean more than they >> would >> >> ordinarily mean requires an audience that expects that context >> and a >> >> writer >> >> who seeks to create it -- all moving away from the ordinary, >> moving >> >> toward >> >> the elite. It cannot be otherwise. Anti-elite is anti-art. You >> >> cannot have >> >> art >> >> without elitism. I can't say it plainer, or less artfully, than >> >> "Wrong, >> >> wrong, >> >> wrong!" >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 4 May 2006 at 13:44, furniture_ press wrote: >> >> >> >> > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! >> >> > >> >> > But this begs the question: is there a "working class >> language? >> >> > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that >> >> is, >> >> > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, >> what's >> >> > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an >> >> elitist >> >> > prank on Literature. >> >> > >> >> > C'mon, folks, what are we hiding when we say "the summer >> rain >> >> > brought splinters of heat to my brow, and, like a robin at >> >> sunset, >> >> > sing to my stars for heaven's love" >> >> > >> >> > See? I made that shit up. fuck that. FUCK that. >> >> > >> >> > This thread gives me new hope in Bukowski. I always thought >> he >> >> was a >> >> > chauvanist pig but, hey, when it comes down to it, he just >> >> states >> >> > what we're all afraid to say. And I think the line is >> >> appropriate: >> >> > >> >> > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they >> >> must >> >> > lead." >> >> > >> >> > Some people never tell the truth. They rely on adjectives. >> >> > >> >> > Big words from a little fish, but I stand behind it. >> >> > >> >> > /Pastamassima/ >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > > From: "Chris Stroffolino" >> >> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> > > Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski >> >> > > Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a >> >> > refrigerator >> >> > > magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote >> >> > > >> >> > > "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives >> they >> >> must >> >> > lead." >> >> > > Charles Bukowski >> >> > > >> >> > > Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or >> >> Sleepy >> >> > Time Tea >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ---------- >> >> > > > From: Craig Allen Conrad >> >> > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> > > > Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY >> >> anthology >> >> > /\\///\\\\///// - >> >> > > + - >> >> > > > Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about >> >> Bukowski, >> >> > > > and they get sick of hearing about class. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class >> men >> >> (a >> >> > couple >> >> > > > of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) >> >> who >> >> > came >> >> > > > to poetry through Bukowski. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how >> >> much >> >> > his >> >> > > > poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not >> >> > pleasant, >> >> > > > but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > What I remember most are the people I have met who have >> >> come >> >> > > > to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I >> knew >> >> > > > in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a >> >> factory, >> >> > his >> >> > > > father before him at the steel plant, and he would get >> up >> >> in >> >> > front >> >> > > > of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or >> >> maybe >> >> > he >> >> > > > just cried that one time, when I was there? And he >> LOVED >> >> by >> >> > > > the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by >> way >> >> > > > of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first >> place. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Bukowski is a door thrown open! >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be >> >> true. >> >> > > > Conrad >> >> > > > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft >> Skull >> >> Press, >> >> > 2006) >> >> > > > for poem samples from the book go to: >> >> > _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >> >> > > > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >> >> > > > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is >> weak >> >> enough >> >> > to be >> >> > > > restrained...." >> >> > > > --William Blake >> >> > > > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: >> >> _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >> >> > > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >> >> > > > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ >> >> > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >> >> > > > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Christophe Casamassima >> >> > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology >> >> > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > ___________________________________________ >> >> > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net >> >> > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:49:34 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Bales on "the life of the mind" (was Conrad on Buk) In-Reply-To: <200605080029.k480THJY067478@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Me, I can't hear the phrase "the life of the mind" without seeing an image of John Goodman in the film Barton Fink as he stalks murderously through a flaming hotel screaming "I'll show you the life of the mind!" Or that conversation when he finally loses patience with Barton and says, "No. _You_ listen." Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 09:58:37 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Marcacci Subject: Call for Submissions - Homonumos Magazine Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello Pos, Poettes & whatall: Forwarding along this lengthy call for submissions for an acquaintance. She just released the first issue of her new magazine here in Beijing. There is a website, but it doesn't seem to be functional at the moment. Her contact e-mail is listed below, but if you would like to obtain a copy of first issue of the magazine, which was released this week, feel free to contact either myself or Christine Bellerose, Editor-In-Chief. Hom=F4numos magazine Literature Science Philosophy Writer=B9s call to submission: Second Issue Deadline submission: 31 May 2006 Theme: Perspective Color: Blue =20 Avant-garde literature philosophy science magazine Second issue: August 2006 (Beijing, China) Published every four months Annual compilation Payment: none =20 Mission Open an outlet for intelligent, refined, artistic, experimental, daring but not confrontational writing. Professional or amateurs are on an equal foot. The brain is a muscle to be cultivated. All writing will be accepted albeit much work will be put in pushing the writers to the limit of their finesse, flair, and intelligence. Being a magazine published every four months allow= s time to work on a piece. At the end of the year a publication will come out containing the best (hopefully all) works in its full length (no word limitation). This publication shall be priced according to its cost, delivery, and tentatively some monetary reward for the authors. This magazine hopes to foster literacy in its utmost light, making it accessible for all to write. Were this initiative help out to regroup writers with similar aspirations, inspire live performance and word installation, the mother of this magazine would be only but the more pleased. So far, people from nations all over the world including locals in China, have voiced thei= r interest to participate in such a venture, I can only see it bring a powerful experience. =20 =B3The idol of the day is=8APhoenicians.=B2 =20 Content MUST BE EXPERIMENTAL. IN CONTENT OR LAYOUT. IN PROVOQUING THOUGHTS. EXPERIMENTAL IS BY NO MEANS CONFRONTATIONAL NEITHER IS IT SENSATIONAL. THE HIGHER SPHERES OF THOUHTS. FAR OUT. ACCUTE SENSITIVITY. Try to work the idea and deliver it to us as a rough. Works in progress (including scribbled notes etc) are most welcome. Finished pieces are not a= s thought stirring. Concentrate on LITERATURE PHILOSOPHY SCIENCE. Will do: beautiful literature, thought stirring, avant-garde themes, experimental written organization, word art, possibilities and novel ideas, sensual and sexual (let us see how far we can go with it), ground breaking theories, thoughts, observation, discoveries, brainiac, nerdy, eccentric, schizophrenic. Will not do: political (avoiding censorship attention), slandering of parties, conspiracy theory, sexually explicit, romance and heart broken sobs, coming off drugs black cloud rambling, unauthorized reproduction, the expatriate in China theme, journalism of mass. =20 -Short stories (facts, fictions) -Poems and graphic word -Essay (scheme and structure, manifesto, hypothesis, including draft on project other than literature eg photography, architecture=8A) -Thoughts, ideas, philosophy -Lyrics -Science (discoveries or hypothesis) Hom=F4numos magazine accepts submissions at all time. Second Issue Deadline submission: 31 May 2006 Theme: Perspective Color: Blue Third Issue Deadline submission: 31 August 2006 (re-writes Sept 2006) Theme: Infinity Color: Yellow (to be confirmed) =20 Original material. Re-prints with approval of original copyright. We do not own rights to your writing. If you are thinking to publish it simultaneously, see with us for details. =20 ALL SUBMISSIONS OR PARTIAL SUBMISSIONS MUST BE SENT TO: Beijinglitmag@yahoo.fr, Subject line mandatory: Beijinglitmag (title) (author name) =20 Please identify your submission clearly, send as rtf file preferably to avoid virus mailing. Submission hand delivery, please inquire to above email.=20 =20 Spread the word=8A =20 About Christine Bellerose Founder and Chief editor Christine was born in Montreal Canada. She thinks in many languages; speaks French, English, Chinese, and, (mushy) Spanish. Born on the day women never marry (25 November), on the sexiest possible year (69), with an IQ well above the norm, slightly dyslexic, synesthesist, twisted, brainiac, weird o= r unique. A natural outcast. Picked up writing at a young age, dabbed in the arts all her life, turned to making money in her 30=B9s, came to China after = a short stay in Vietnam, decided money was not all that necessary. Currently pursuing her dream of becoming a famous writer. Forever grateful to Wang Le= i (her idol). She came to Beijing (2002) to be part of the artist community, lived in a Chinese house on the outskirts of Beijing, equipped with work in progress courtyard, lotus tubs, and a backhouse with a light bulb. Moved back to Beijing center in 2005. Recently converted to tango dancing and scuba diving. Did plays as amateur, (=8A) as provocateur. Putting out a literature magazine because. (see/ask about Project at a glance) In awe wha= t with realizing there are script-savvy geeks out there (Beijing and Beijing web community). Christine has dabbled in an eclectic procession of arts, from poetry, playwriting, classical guitar, stage drama, classical modern and tango dancing, fashion designing and fashion styling, back to writing. In the midst of it she traveled and lived in many countries. In 2004 she broke the rule that writers can't show with a word installation at Imagine Gallery (Beijing). Her French-English erotic compilation, "The Writhing/Les E-Cris, was published for the event. She has written her first book, Grasshopper, and plowing through the next ones, Process Cheese and Three ghosts. Her published erotica (French) is on R=EAve B=E9b=E9 and Plume Rose, (English) Foreig= n Affairs: Erotic Travel Tales edited by Mitzi Szereto at Cleis Press. She also performs her work (From Yuanmingyuan to 798 poetry performance (South Gate Space), other poetry performances (Hart caf=E9, DIAF 2005, Bookworm, Sculpture in Time). Today she lives in Beijing, with her aging canine companion Pirelli --=20 Bob Marcacci ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 18:59:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tlrelf Subject: Re: Call for Submissions - Homonumos Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you, Bob. Ter Hello Pos, Poettes & whatall: Forwarding along this lengthy call for submissions for an acquaintance. She just released the first issue of her new magazine here in Beijing. There is a website, but it doesn't seem to be functional at the moment. Her contact e-mail is listed below, but if you would like to obtain a copy of first issue of the magazine, which was released this week, feel free to contact either myself or Christine Bellerose, Editor-In-Chief. Homônumos magazine Literature Science Philosophy Writer¹s call to submission: Second Issue Deadline submission: 31 May 2006 Theme: Perspective Color: Blue Avant-garde literature philosophy science magazine Second issue: August 2006 (Beijing, China) Published every four months Annual compilation Payment: none Mission Open an outlet for intelligent, refined, artistic, experimental, daring but not confrontational writing. Professional or amateurs are on an equal foot. The brain is a muscle to be cultivated. All writing will be accepted albeit much work will be put in pushing the writers to the limit of their finesse, flair, and intelligence. Being a magazine published every four months allows time to work on a piece. At the end of the year a publication will come out containing the best (hopefully all) works in its full length (no word limitation). This publication shall be priced according to its cost, delivery, and tentatively some monetary reward for the authors. This magazine hopes to foster literacy in its utmost light, making it accessible for all to write. Were this initiative help out to regroup writers with similar aspirations, inspire live performance and word installation, the mother of this magazine would be only but the more pleased. So far, people from nations all over the world including locals in China, have voiced their interest to participate in such a venture, I can only see it bring a powerful experience. ³The idol of the day isSPhoenicians.² Content MUST BE EXPERIMENTAL. IN CONTENT OR LAYOUT. IN PROVOQUING THOUGHTS. EXPERIMENTAL IS BY NO MEANS CONFRONTATIONAL NEITHER IS IT SENSATIONAL. THE HIGHER SPHERES OF THOUHTS. FAR OUT. ACCUTE SENSITIVITY. Try to work the idea and deliver it to us as a rough. Works in progress (including scribbled notes etc) are most welcome. Finished pieces are not as thought stirring. Concentrate on LITERATURE PHILOSOPHY SCIENCE. Will do: beautiful literature, thought stirring, avant-garde themes, experimental written organization, word art, possibilities and novel ideas, sensual and sexual (let us see how far we can go with it), ground breaking theories, thoughts, observation, discoveries, brainiac, nerdy, eccentric, schizophrenic. Will not do: political (avoiding censorship attention), slandering of parties, conspiracy theory, sexually explicit, romance and heart broken sobs, coming off drugs black cloud rambling, unauthorized reproduction, the expatriate in China theme, journalism of mass. -Short stories (facts, fictions) -Poems and graphic word -Essay (scheme and structure, manifesto, hypothesis, including draft on project other than literature eg photography, architectureS) -Thoughts, ideas, philosophy -Lyrics -Science (discoveries or hypothesis) Homônumos magazine accepts submissions at all time. Second Issue Deadline submission: 31 May 2006 Theme: Perspective Color: Blue Third Issue Deadline submission: 31 August 2006 (re-writes Sept 2006) Theme: Infinity Color: Yellow (to be confirmed) Original material. Re-prints with approval of original copyright. We do not own rights to your writing. If you are thinking to publish it simultaneously, see with us for details. ALL SUBMISSIONS OR PARTIAL SUBMISSIONS MUST BE SENT TO: Beijinglitmag@yahoo.fr, Subject line mandatory: Beijinglitmag (title) (author name) Please identify your submission clearly, send as rtf file preferably to avoid virus mailing. Submission hand delivery, please inquire to above email. Spread the wordS About Christine Bellerose Founder and Chief editor Christine was born in Montreal Canada. She thinks in many languages; speaks French, English, Chinese, and, (mushy) Spanish. Born on the day women never marry (25 November), on the sexiest possible year (69), with an IQ well above the norm, slightly dyslexic, synesthesist, twisted, brainiac, weird or unique. A natural outcast. Picked up writing at a young age, dabbed in the arts all her life, turned to making money in her 30¹s, came to China after a short stay in Vietnam, decided money was not all that necessary. Currently pursuing her dream of becoming a famous writer. Forever grateful to Wang Lei (her idol). She came to Beijing (2002) to be part of the artist community, lived in a Chinese house on the outskirts of Beijing, equipped with work in progress courtyard, lotus tubs, and a backhouse with a light bulb. Moved back to Beijing center in 2005. Recently converted to tango dancing and scuba diving. Did plays as amateur, (S) as provocateur. Putting out a literature magazine because. (see/ask about Project at a glance) In awe what with realizing there are script-savvy geeks out there (Beijing and Beijing web community). Christine has dabbled in an eclectic procession of arts, from poetry, playwriting, classical guitar, stage drama, classical modern and tango dancing, fashion designing and fashion styling, back to writing. In the midst of it she traveled and lived in many countries. In 2004 she broke the rule that writers can't show with a word installation at Imagine Gallery (Beijing). Her French-English erotic compilation, "The Writhing/Les E-Cris, was published for the event. She has written her first book, Grasshopper, and plowing through the next ones, Process Cheese and Three ghosts. Her published erotica (French) is on Rêve Bébé and Plume Rose, (English) Foreign Affairs: Erotic Travel Tales edited by Mitzi Szereto at Cleis Press. She also performs her work (From Yuanmingyuan to 798 poetry performance (South Gate Space), other poetry performances (Hart café, DIAF 2005, Bookworm, Sculpture in Time). Today she lives in Beijing, with her aging canine companion Pirelli -- Bob Marcacci ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 22:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: bush skewered by google... Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, edcohen@rutgers.rci.edu, sumanth@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, susanlannen@hotmail.com, laurelreiner@aol.com, reiner@cats.ucsc.edu, craig026@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, morri074@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, Flarf@googlegroups.com, sondheim@panix.com, kdamon@sovereignbank.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Revenge of Google! In what is a not too subtle dig at Bush's subpoena of their search records, Google is getting their own nasty dig at 'W' before the gag orders go into effect. I don't know how long this will work, but go to http://www.Google.com and type in the search word: asshole Don't hit the "search" button, hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button right below the Search. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 20:48:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Hamm Subject: Re: bush skewered by google... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hah! Christine Hamm __________________ Buy my book or risk losing your thumbs. www.lulu.com/sharpNpencil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 22:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: bush skewered by google... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It's called a "google bomb" and has something to do with a large number of websites intentionally linking themselves to the site in question via the offending word. Hilarious, but has nothing to do with Google and everything to do with a conscious grassroots movement. If you put "failure" in the google box and press "I Feel Lucky" you'll get the official White House Sit= e Bush bio. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb Dan On 5/7/06, Maria Damon wrote: > > Revenge of Google! > > In what is a not too subtle dig at Bush's subpoena of their search > records, > Google is getting their own nasty dig at 'W' before the gag orders go int= o > effect. > > > I don't know how long this will work, but go to > > http://www.Google.com > > and type in the search word: asshole > > Don't hit the "search" button, hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button right > below the Search. > -- http://hyperhypo.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 23:40:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Reading at St. Marks Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I will be reading with Susan M. Schultz and Mark Wallace On Wednesday, May 31, 8 PM At the St. Marks Poetry Project 131 East 10th Street (at 2nd Ave), Manhattan. Be a pleasure to have you there! Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the "Tenderly" series, A serial work in progress. & author of: WALKING (Junction Books); & Sleeping With Sappho (a faux ebook): http://www.fauxpress.com/e/vincent/ & Triggers, an ebook from Shearsman Books http://www.shearsman.com/pages/books/ebooks/ebooks_home.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 02:43:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tlrelf Subject: Re: bush skewered by google... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The link didn't work, but the tool bar did... Ter > Revenge of Google! > > In what is a not too subtle dig at Bush's subpoena of their search > records, > Google is getting their own nasty dig at 'W' before the gag orders go into > effect. > > > I don't know how long this will work, but go to > > http://www.Google.com > > and type in the search word: asshole > > Don't hit the "search" button, hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button right > below the Search. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 07:33:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: from alan sondheim... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" forwarded from Alan Sondheim; he's got a blog! > Btw could you announce to Poetics I've got a blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com - in case anyone might want to see what I'm up to. Hope thing are well! love Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 05:44:50 -0700 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog: Bay Poetics Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , Wom Po , Lucifer Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Bay Poetics – a new anthology with 110 poets The latest champ from Chester County Small presses account for half of all book sales The Paris Review Interviews online - watching a medium grow up Robert Smithson at Dia:Beacon - Thinking and art What the Poetry Foundation really thinks as viewed from its survey of Poetry in America The next Democratic Debacle Bob Casey in Pennsylvania Saving the internet The Da Vinci Code is to great literature as Indiana Jones is to great cinema The future of online publication What people are actually reading and where they submit their poetry Quality vs. accessibility in online publications A survey of poets their reading and publishing habits online and in print The Poet Laureate of the Blogosphere Rethinking aura in front of the Enola Gay, the Space Shuttle and Sandra Day O’Connor http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:59:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: bush skewered by google... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maria Damon wrote: > I don't know how long this will work, but go to > > http://www.Google.com > > and type in the search word: asshole > > Don't hit the "search" button, hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button right > below the Search. Same method, but type in "Failure,' then "I'm Feeling Lucky." Interesting result. ken wolman -- --------------------- Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com I wouldn't want to have lived without having offended someone.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:33:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sabyasachi Sanyal Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Pardon my English. A nice discussion. I can=B9t help but ponder while reading Marcus and CA =8B =20 1. Dante, writing =B3Comedy=B2 in Italian not Latin (a language of the then working class) Dostoevsky writing in Russian rather than French (the then working class language of Russia), can they be identified as efforts to attain an elite status for the =B3working class language=B2 ? Even if the basi= c motif of the said authors were just to reach common people (temporal), considering them as cogs in the whole process of evolution of a certain language, can=B9t we say it was ultimately to challenge the elite and /or subsequently reach an elite status itself ? Let=B9s say, the process is continuous, and a new working class language substitutes the older one which has evolved to an elite status. 2. may be I am a moron, but can=B9t help but wonder =8B who actually decides what is art and what is not ? I am no fan of Bill Collins, but this Bill Bashing, isn=B9t it somehow related to putting a stamp saying =B3Elite=B2 on our personal scales ? Didn=B9t a Bukowski or a Bill Collins ever categorized / judged the art of others, (say Bukowski judging the so called elite arts o= r Collins Judging Language Poetry), be it in private be in public =8B I was just wondering what they may /would / could say. isn=B9t is natural for all beings to exert /try to exert their supremacy and in that sense aren=B9t we all elites / wannabe elites ? re: Marcus and aryanil=B9s post : when referring to the part about BAULs- marcus says =B3I think this again confuses the meaning of "elite". Elite as we're using it=20 here in this discussion doesn't mean, at least I don't use it to mean "economically advantaged" as opposed to "working class". The economic class of an individual may limit or not, may encourage or not, his or her artistic ambitions, but all artistic ambitions are necessarily elitist: the= y are=20 attempts to take the ordinary and make it extraordinary, and the extraordinary is ... (wait for it) ... elite! =B3 I guess, there has been a miscommunication. I do not think BAULs can be considered as working class or Economically disadvantaged. They are, basically people in search of spiritual happiness as well as searching the juice of life through poetry and songs resonating around many aspects of life including humanity, love (in all its dimensions), philosophy. These guys even come from well to do families and begging is their profession jus= t because begging makes them smaller in others=B9 eyes, in turn making become humble, down to earth sacrificing the last trace of Ego. I think what Aryanil was trying to point out was that the songs they wrote / sang were always targeted for the working class, (peasants mostly) even illiterates, teaching them to better their ways of life in the absence of material pleasures (that, many in India lack involuntarily) teaching them about love and harmony, even going deeply philosophical in =B3down to earth=B2 language. The Bauls were not considered worth listening to by the so called elites, until Tagore, rediscovered them. Please continue, got a lot to learn Best=20 Sabyasachi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:22:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 5-08-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE BIG READ READ IT WHILE YOU CAN: A CELEBRATION OF THE BOOK Saturday, May 13, 1-5 p.m. Central Library, Downtown Buffalo 1 p.m. Welcome: Mike Mahaney, Director of Buffalo and Erie County Public Li= braries 1:10 Screening of =22See it Now=22 about Edward R. Murrow, introduced by Br= uce Jackson 1:50 Panel: Examining Censorship, Celebrating Free Speech. Panelists: Prof.= Bruce Jackson, SUNY at Buffalo Chris Finan, American Booksellers Association, John Curr, NY ACLU, Rich Kel= lman, Channel 2 News. Moderator, Pat Martin, Irish Classical Theater 3:00 Buffalo Authors Coffeehouse, featuring readings of the winning student= essays from the Big Read essay contest. Local Authors: Julian Montague, Kari Wintr= er, Hershini Bhana, Ted Pelton, Christopher Fritton 4:30 Booksignings and reception. Co-sponsored by UB Humanities Institute & Buffalo and Erie Count Public Lib= raries DISCUSSION GROUPS THIS WEEK East Aurora Public Library 550 Main Street, East Aurora Monday, May 8th 7 pm Lockport Library (Niagara County) 23 East Avenue, Lockport Tuesday, May 9 =C2=A0 7:30 to 9 pM Orchard Park Public Library S-4570 South Buffalo Street, Orchard Park Wednesday, May 10th 7 to 8:30 pm =00 For a complete schedule, go to our website and click on the =22Big Read=22 = logo. JUST ANNOUNCED=21=21=21=21=21 A Poet in Buffalo: A Community Celebration of the Life & Work of Robert Creeley(1926=E2=80=932005) on the Occasion of his 80th Birthday Saturday & Sunday May 20 & 21, 2006 Saturday: 7 pm. to 12 Midnight at The Church, 341 Delaware Ave: Readings by: AMIRI BARAKA JOANNE KYGER TOM RAWORTH plus: Buffalo Tributes, film screenings, live music, audio & visual presentations= , displays of archival treasures & Creeley=E2=80=99s collaborations with visual artists, = DJs, and food & drink, culminating with an 80th birthday toast at the stroke of midnight. Sunday, 2:00 P.M. at the Albright-Knox Art Gallery Auditorium: Creeley films presented in person by Bruce Jackson & Diane Christian, and the world premiere of a Creeley composition by David Felder. Sponsored by: Albright-Knox Art Gallery, Hallwalls, Just Buffalo Literary = Center, Righteous Babe Records, Samuel P. Capen Chair of American Culture, Talking= Leaves Books, & UB Poetry Collection. Media sponsors BUFFALO SPREE & ARTVOICE. For detailed information and Creeley links go to www.hallwalls.or= g. WORKSHOPS THE WORKING WRITER SEMINAR In our most popular series of workshops writers improve their writing for p= ublication, learn the ins and outs of getting publiished, and find ways to earn a livin= g as writers. Individual workshops: =2450, =2440 members Materials are included at no additional cost. Power of the Pen Saturday, May 13, 12 - 4 p.m. This course will unleash and expand your natural creative abilities, while = you enjoy the inspirational, motivational approach to writing. Writing on a regular b= asis provides widespread benefits, improved confidence and a more positive attitude. Wr= iters will be inspired to put =22passion into print,=22 and become a successfully publ= ished author. In a step-by-step explanation of how to take an idea you're passionate about, = you'll learn to make an article or book out of it, get it published and deliver it into = the hands and hearts of readers. Kathryn Radeff's work has appeared in local, regional and national magazine= s and newspapers, including Woman's World, Instructor, American Fitness, Personal Journaling, They Daytona Beach News Journal, and The Buffalo News and Buffa= lo Spree. For the past 25 years, she has worked extensively as an educator emp= hasizing a creative approach to getting published. SPOKEN ARTS RADIO, with host Sarah Campbell A joint production of Just Buffalo Literary Center and WBFO 88.7 FM Airs Sundays during Weekend Edition at 8:35 a.m. and Mondays during Morning Edition at 6:35 A.M. & 8:35 a.m. Upcoming Features: Ray Bradbury biographer Sam Weller, May 14 & 15 All shows are now available for download on our website, including features= on John Ashbery, Paul Auster, Lyn Hejinian and more http://www.justbuffalo.org/events/sar.shtml JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery. Group meets 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call fo= r details. UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:26:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: "the life of the mind" (was Conrad on Buk) In-Reply-To: <200605080029.k480THJY067478@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 May 2006 at 17:56, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > ... I don't think it's such an either/or distinction; just because > some poor > people might consider certain forms of art or writing "silly and > affected," > doesn't mean that they consider the "life of the mind" silly and > affected.< We are speaking in broad generalities here, so I agree that there are lots of exceptions on both sides. Community and local theaters across the country are largely composed of "working class" people, for example. But looking at the funding problems and the numbers of butts in the seats at those theaters we cannot conclude other than that the working class is staying away from the theater in droves. On 7 May 2006 at 17:56, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > ... in certain circles any > claims of native intelligence or wonder are despised unless of > course one drops the 'proper' names or cultural references ...< Not "despised", I think, but certainly under-rated. On the other hand, in certain circles any claims of value or significance are ... um ... under-rated if one _does_ make allusions to art made before Elvis Presley arrived on the scene, or in other media, for that matter. > I don't think this has all that much to do with the fact the poor > are so concerned getting from paycheck to paycheck; I could just as easily > counter that the "middle-class" or rich are often so concerned with > investment schemes, retirement funds, or with a "he who dies with the most toys > wins" philosophy...< And I'd agree -- those who pursue the life of the mind are few. Even the tens of thousands to which you refer are few compared with the hundreds of millions of people in the US. But that only makes it look as if you're tired of arguing your side and decided to dabble in arguing mine for a bit. The people who pursue the life of the mind are an elite irrespective of the social class in which they were raised. On 7 May 2006 at 17:56, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > ... the elitist sense of what "mind" or "life of the > mind" is, is something I don't see in life ...< Not anywhere? Not in the academy, not online in these discussion groups, not in libraries or community theaters or small presses? Not anywhere? On 7 May 2006 at 17:56, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > But even if one comes to appreciate 'higher art,'and even if one > comes to > NEED it, whether intrinsically or because one has something to > prove, I > still have to ask you WHAT exactly such VALUES are that these "poor > folks" > are missing out on....If you want to play the role of the didactic > defender > of the lost art of reading elite art on the ground that it will make > others > better, or even happier, people than they would be without it, you > need to > do much more to convince me.< I'm making no arguments about whether people will be better or happier through any kind of art at all. Frequently engagement with art makes one less happy, though perhaps the notion of what makes people "better people" would be more congenial ground. One may be a better person than before without being a happier one, and a happier one without being a better one, through art or by any number of other means. I'm arguing that people will make better art if they are intimate with the ways that art has been made in the past -- not merely that they've heard of Tennyson, but that they've read him, for example. On 7 May 2006 at 17:56, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > ... I'm questioning your definition of "life of the mind" > and what criteria you use to determine whether someone is living it It has nothing to do with the amount of money that someone makes or what kind of car they drive or house they live in, if that's what you're asking. I do not say that "working class" people are incapable of living the life of the mind, only that the working class culture in the US is for the most part denigrative of the life of the mind. There are many and notable exceptions - - far too many mothers and fathers have drudged through horrible jobs to ensure that their kids graduated college and had thereby a better shot, if they wanted it, at the life of the mind. Not that college is necessary to the life of the mind! By no means -- but I think we can at least agree that one has a better chance of understanding what that life is and internalizing its values and embarking on it if one has the time and money to engage it at a relatively young age. My argument is that it almost doesn't matter how we agree to define "the life of the mind" -- that whatever definition we eventually agree on, I think you'll have to agree, too, that those who pursue such a life are an elite. On 7 May 2006 at 17:56, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Marcus wrote: > > if you're poor, even if > > you're very talented, you're not very likely to internalize the > > values of the life of the mind, and if you're well-off, you still probably > > won't, but you may; > > and if you do, you have a better chance of survival, and even of > > success. > C: What are these values? And why can't someone get them by turning > on the > radio and hearing "Check Out Your Mind" by Curtis Mayfield? for > instance, > at least as much as sitting in a poetry class where they discuss > the > "purposeful purposelessness" of the sublime?< Well, of course, someone can. But those someones are even MORE of an elite than those who sit in poetry classes -- sort of like the argument that you could infer the Pythagorean theorem from innumerable examples of it around you, but most people have to be taught it. There are few Pythagorases -- far fewer than can understand the ideas they put forward. So your argument that it CAN happen that "someone" CAN learn a good deal just by looking and listening results in my claim that those people constitute the very sort of elite you seem to be trying to argue against by using them as an example. As for Ms Croggon's movie reference to resorts to violence to demonstrate something about the life of the mind, I refer you all to Archimedes's death. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 16:50:53 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sabyasachi Sanyal Subject: BAULs a Correction Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Read my last post, particularly the part about BAULs... I am afraid it looks very unclear due to a number of typos. What I wanted to say-- BAULs are poor by option. Many of these guys were born in well to do families, but they left materialistic pleasures and their rich lives behind and embraced the so called poverty, even to the extent of begging, thus decapitating their Egos. Hope, this clears Sabyasachi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 07:51:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: buk & working class poetry In-Reply-To: <000501c66fbb$ef5ffa90$6701a8c0@KASIA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In case you might be interested, a poet who describes himself as "working class" even though he teaches at Dartmouth College has just written an excellent book on poetry and class called: The Stamp of Class. It's published by a university press, although I forget which one. C Daly wrote: here in LA, where Buk lived for a time, there is a core group of acolytes, former wives, and girlfriends, though not too many of his postal worker colleagues, and many of these folks are if not working class (many having no day jobs or not blue collar day jobs) in pursuit of the Beat or of the working class literati there is a separate group of punk / post-punk writers and artists, and many of them are from working class backgrounds; some of them are still working artists, not owning homes, having insurance or stable family situations, and living gig to gig, some of them are incredibly wealthy poets now during my high school and college years, there was always a set of "literary young men" who found Buk, the male Beats, alcohol, and misogyny all at the same confusing time they seem to have been afraid that being a poet wasn't butch enough but I think in this discussion, these groups are getting exchanged for one another All best, Catherine Daly also, I cannot imagine attending, let alone writing, a play based on a movie written by a poet for cash; I could rant, but the core of my response is: --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:14:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: <000801c67222$ac573a10$5f01a8c0@inspiration> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> Take Hungarian musican Bela Bartok for example. Bartok, >> alongwith a small group of music-enthusiast friends, explored >> the rural areas of Hungary and Romania gathering folk-music >> that was essentially run by the working class. From this >> compilation >> was born modern Hungarian folk which to a great extent was >> classical music too.< > > I may agree with what you're saying here, but I can't yet tell because I > can't > tell what it is you're saying is the art: was it the folk-music itself, > was it the > art of selecting this instead of that folk-music, or was it birthing > modern > Hungarian folk and classical music, or was it the actual modern Hungarian > folk and/or classical music itself? well, I'm trying to hint at many facets of reality here. Firstly, the fact that this folk was practised, appreciated and propagated among peasants as "art"; was valued as art too; "working class" art that was high quality and original, in other words "elite", but like it invariably happens with working class art, rarely gets a chance to reach beyond the "Penny Lane"s. Secondly, what Bartok compiled was indeed folk-music but had an unmistakable classicism to it (apart from the touch of contemporary Hungarian life) and finally went on to replace the so-called traditional (and "foreign") elitist Hungarian classical music. Bartok's work could also be looked at from many other angles. Some say, his, is a rare example of compiled songs that changed the musical tradition of a race. > >> I'll present a second example form the BAUL singers of Bengal, >> India. >> This community, the BAULs, are far sub-altern than the "working >> class". >> They are nomadic saintly beggers, who had a great humanitarian >> philosophy >> of their own, carried just a mono-string instrument and went >> singing >> and begging from one village to another. Their music was rich and >> their >> lyrics - deeply philosophical and metaphysical poetry. Tagore >> absorbed >> from the BAUL tradition enormously and created a new "elite" lyric >> and music about a century back. This music today, called >> Rabindrasangeet, >> which is really a musical rendering of rich verse, assumes the >> status of >> classical >> Bengali music. The BAUL tradition co-exists too. Purna Das Baul, a >> leading >> exponent of this tradition sang on stage with Joan Baez and Bob >> Dylan at >> Berkeley campus in the sixties.Today, in Calcutta, urban bands, >> equipped >> with jazz instruments, perform their own version of BAUL songs. >> So, while the tradition still lives, the boundaries between what we >> call >> "working class" and "elite" are fast dissolving. > > I think this again confuses the meaning of "elite". Elite as we're using > it > here in this discussion doesn't mean, at least I don't use it to mean > "economically advantaged" as opposed to "working class". The economic > class of an individual may limit or not, may encourage or not, his or her > artistic ambitions, but all artistic ambitions are necessarily elitist: > they are > attempts to take the ordinary and make it extraordinary, and the > extraordinary is ... (wait for it) ... elite! > May I ask here, then why did the term "working class" come up in this discussion as something opposed to "elite" ? Is it really possible to estrange economical nuances from these terms ? How do you see the growth of "opera" as an elitist art form in the western hemisphere ? Is it possible to think of opera-art without the dandy suites, expensive monocles, Belgian jewellery and French perfume ? Many different forms of musical narratives existed all over Europe, Asia and Africa for centuries. A lot of them were structurally, formally, content-wise very similar to the "Opera". These were indeed perceived, entertained and appreciated as "art", but by common folks including gypsies and other nomadic tribes. Why is it that these were never considered "elite" ? Because they lacked richness and originality ? Or was it because they were not appreciated by the "dandy suites" ? I would, like Marcus, certainly want to see the word "elite" be defined as " attempts to take the ordinary and make it extraordinary"; however, (and unfortunately) that's not how it is perceived in all quarters. Else no one bring up "working class" as an opposed notion. Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 08:31:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Bukowski, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable elite: a group or class of persons enjoying a superior social or = economic status. elitist: one who believes in rule (or governance) by an elite group In the narrowest sense of status, one could hardly view Bukowski ,the = man, as having "enjoyed" a superior position either socially or = economically, the man himself said: "so caught between my father and the bums I had no place to go and I went there fast and slow. never voted Republican never voted." In the broadest sense of group, one might easily view Bukowski, the = poet, as one who believed exactly the opposite regarding the governing = (making the rules/decisions to publish the work of another) of the = poetic process. =20 For reference, read his Aftermath of a Lengthy Rejection Slip to get a = sense of the writer/poet's views regarding the rule makers. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 08:39:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: buk & working class poetry In-Reply-To: <20060508145143.78010.qmail@web31115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Since I omitted both the author's name and the publisher's of The Stamp of Class, I will supply the author's name, at least. His name is Gary Lenhart, I hope this infomation helps someone find and read this marvelous book. Thomas savage wrote: In case you might be interested, a poet who describes himself as "working class" even though he teaches at Dartmouth College has just written an excellent book on poetry and class called: The Stamp of Class. It's published by a university press, although I forget which one. C Daly wrote: here in LA, where Buk lived for a time, there is a core group of acolytes, former wives, and girlfriends, though not too many of his postal worker colleagues, and many of these folks are if not working class (many having no day jobs or not blue collar day jobs) in pursuit of the Beat or of the working class literati there is a separate group of punk / post-punk writers and artists, and many of them are from working class backgrounds; some of them are still working artists, not owning homes, having insurance or stable family situations, and living gig to gig, some of them are incredibly wealthy poets now during my high school and college years, there was always a set of "literary young men" who found Buk, the male Beats, alcohol, and misogyny all at the same confusing time they seem to have been afraid that being a poet wasn't butch enough but I think in this discussion, these groups are getting exchanged for one another All best, Catherine Daly also, I cannot imagine attending, let alone writing, a play based on a movie written by a poet for cash; I could rant, but the core of my response is: --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:07:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: buk & working class poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, it is a fantastic book ("The Stamp of Class"0, written by Gary Lenhart. Murat In a message dated 5/8/06 10:55:49 AM, tsavagebar@YAHOO.COM writes: > In case you might be interested, a poet who describes himself as "working=20 > class" even though he teaches at Dartmouth College has just written an=20 > excellent book on poetry and class called: The Stamp of Class.=A0 It's pub= lished by a=20 > university press, although I forget which one. >=20 > C Daly wrote:=A0 here in LA, where Buk lived for a ti= me,=20 > there is a core group of acolytes, > former wives, and girlfriends, though not too many of his postal worker > colleagues, and many of these folks are if not working class (many having=20= no > day jobs or not blue collar day jobs) in pursuit of the Beat or of the > working class literati >=20 > there is a separate group of punk / post-punk writers and artists, and man= y > of them are from working class backgrounds; some of them are still working > artists, not owning homes, having insurance or stable family situations, a= nd > living gig to gig, some of them are incredibly wealthy poets now >=20 > during my high school and college years, there was always a set of "litera= ry > young men" who found Buk, the male Beats, alcohol, and misogyny all at the > same confusing time they seem to have been afraid that being a poet wasn't > butch enough >=20 > but I think in this discussion, these groups are getting exchanged for one > another >=20 > All best, > Catherine Daly >=20 > also, I cannot imagine attending, let alone writing, a play based on a mov= ie > written by a poet for cash; I could rant, but the core of my response is: >=20 >=20 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:20:21 -0700 Reply-To: r_loden@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: plays on words: a poets-theater festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come for multiple delights, including Tony Torn as Nixon on the 11th (Thursday)! two great tastes that go great together PLAYS ON WORDS: A POETS-THEATER FESTIVAL curated by lee ann brown + corina copp + tony torn saint mark's church may 11th-15th 2006 2nd ave + 10th street nyc all shows 7pm @ the ontological theater unless otherwise noted If you pre-purchase your ticket online or over the phone get $2 off! That's a fantastic night of poetry & theater for the low, low price of $5!!! CODE: POETS http://www.ovationtix.com/trs/pr/573/prm/POETS - no service fee! Regular Door Price $7, $20 for FESTIVAL PASS Theater Mania @ 212.352.3101 FEATURING THEATER ARTISTS ACTORS AND DIRECTORS INCLUDING: ann brown + mallory catlett + anthony cerrato + dominic d'andrea + dave henderson + molly hickok + aaron rosenblum + brian snapp + pete simpson + tony torn + kate valk + patricia ybarra + elena zucker and more! THURSDAY MAY 11: A NIGHT OF MICRO-PLAYS! charles bernstein + anselm berrigan + randall david-cook + kelly copper + francesco canguillo + robert elstein + elise geither + nada gordon + may josephs + rachel loden + dana maisel + mary millsap + tom raworth + tom savage + hal sirowitz + anne waldman + catherine wing FRIDAY MAY 12 WHERE THE STONES GATHER by brian kim stefans THE TOOTH FAIRY by charles borkhuis THE SOLUTION by david henderson SATURDAY MAY 13 ZOANTHELLA & ZOANTHINA: TRIBULATIONS OF THE LARVAL ANEMONE PRINCESSES by laynie brown MIRROR PLAY by carla harryman BLUE by julie patton SUNDAY MAY 14 A RETROSPECTIVE with bob holman and bob rosenthal NEO BENSHI by kevin killian and dodie bellamy MONDAY MAY 15 (8PM IN THE PARISH HALL) BONY-HANDED by reed bye THE MAIN CHANCE by corina copp PERFECT CALIFORNIA: A FAMILY AFFAIR by rachel levitsky RADIO ORPHAN: AN EXCERPT by chris stroffolino ECO-STRATO-STATIC by rodrigo toscano COSMIC NAUGHT by genya turovskaya HEAD WILL GET YOU TOGETHERNESS by jacqueline waters ---------------------------------------------------------- People that are really weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history. --J. Danforth Quayle Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/ r_loden@sbcglobal.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:19:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Chernoff & Reyes at SPT this Fri 5/12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic is pleased to present a reading by Maxine Chernoff & Barbara Jane Reyes Friday, May 12, 2006 at 7:30 p.m. Maxine Chernoff joins us in celebration of her latest collection of poetry, Among the Names (Apogee, 2005), which Elizabeth Robinson says “suggests poetry as a vehicle for ethics--not in sense of proscribing moral virtue, but as a mode of experience in which acuteness of perception can model both compassion and sharp critique. Chernoff is an alchemically subtle reader of human economies." Chernoff is the author of six collections of fiction and seven books of poetry. She chairs the Creative Writing Department at San Francisco State and co-edits New American Writing . Chernoff lives in Mill Valley. Barbara Jane Reyes is the author of poeta en san francisco ( Tinfish Press, 2005), for which she received the Academy of American Poets James Laughlin Award. Juliana Spahr calls the book: “a multilingual litany that forcefully articulates what it means to be living as a woman in a nation of veterans, virgins, and dark angels.” Reyes was born in Manila, Philippines, raised in the Bay Area, and schooled at UC Berkeley and SF State . Her first book, Gravities of Center, was published by Arkipelago Books (2003). She lives in Oakland. Unless otherwise noted, our readings are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) & are $5-10 sliding scale, free to CCA community & current SPT members Click for directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/fac_dir.html Elizabeth Treadwell, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: New Performance List Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com, lexiconjury@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline (excuse the cross-posting) New list-serv focused on performance: "The Performance List is dedicated to live art, performance art, experimental theatre, performance studies, music theatre, performance poetry and other performance-based variations. Post shows, calls for submission, start collaborations, discussions, reviews, etc" this is one of the few lists dedicated to experimental performance that is not connected to an insititution, so it might work out. if it's your thing go to the website and sign up: http://groups.google.com/group/performancelist regards, -- http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 17:17:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Thesis Reading (Providence) / Kate Valk in my play (NYC) / other news Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A mass email to inform/remind you: 1. My thesis reading is this Tuesday, the 9th, 8 pm., at the McCorrmack Family Theater on Brown Campus. 70 Brown Street between Angell and Waterman (enter through Fones Alley). I will be reading poems, showing some videos, then presenting my new electronic piece Kluge: A Meditation. Robert Coover and a few electro-undergrads will also give short readings/presentations. More booze than usual at reception afterwards. My thesis is online at: http://www.arras.net/bks_kluge_thesis_disk/ 2. Kate Valk, the fabulous New York actress known for her work with the Wooster Group, will be acting in my short play "Where Stones Gather" this Friday at the Ontological Theater. It is part of a five day poets theater festival called "Play on Words." Follow this link for info: http://www.arras.net/fscIII/?p=87 PLEASE COME TO EITHER OR BOTH EVENTS! Btw, I'm moving to Philadelphia in July or August or something like that. I got a one-year gig at Richard Stockton College in New Jersey. So if you are a Providence native and I haven't seen you in a while, let's drink! Brian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 17:51:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hsn Subject: Buk words In-Reply-To: <20060507174656.51340.qmail@web60012.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Spicer stupid to ask if you have read Lorca. Everybody has read Lorca. Everybody has read anyting, everything. Why ask. I hate these meetings. Have u read. oh yeah. he's good. how about. o yeah. he's good too..." -- CB in a letter to Jory Sherman 7/9/1960 "I have just read the immortal poems of the ages and come away dull. I don't know who's at fault; maybe it's the weather, but I sense a lot of pretense and poesy footwork: I am writing a poem, they seem to say, look at me! Poetry must be forgotten; we must get down to raw paint, splatter. I think a man should be forced to write in a roomful of skulls, bits of raw meat hanging, nibbled by fat slothy rats, the sockets musicless staring into the wet ether-sogged, love-sogged, hate-sogged brain, and forevermore the rockets and flares and chains of history winging like bats, bat-flap and smoke and skulls ringing in the beer. Yes." -- CB in a letter to Jory Sherman 1961? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 18:17:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: NOT EVEN DOGS press release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable from Meritage Press (http://www.meritagepress.com): NOT EVEN DOGS Poems by Ernesto Priego 116 pages ISBN: 978-1-4116-8992-3 Meritage Press (St. Helena and San Francisco, CA, 2006) Distribution: Meritage Press and Lulu.com Contact Info: MeritagePress@aol.com Meritage Press is pleased to announce the release of NOT EVEN DOGS by Mexica= n=20 poet Ernesto Priego. This book is not only Priego's debut poetry collection= =20 but also the first single-author hay(na)ku poetry book. The hay(na)ku is a "diasporic" poetic form inaugurated on June 12, 2003 by=20 Eileen R. Tabios. The form swiftly became popular and, in 2005, THE FIRST=20 HAY(NA)KU ANTHOLOGY (http://www.meritagepress.com/haynaku.htm) was published= =20 featuring 38 poets around the world, including its coeditors Mark Young (New= =20 Zealand) and Jean Vengua (United States). That first anthology may be the s= wiftest=20 anthology release following a poetic form's invention, with a second antholo= gy=20 in the works. Advance Praise for NOT EVEN DOGS: [Ernesto Priego] bares & shares himself more than any other contemporary=20 poets I know. Cuts pieces out of himself & then examines them with us. & he=20= has=20 found the perfect vehicle for it, the hay(na)ku, known in Mexico as the jain= ak=FA=20 because his use of it has made it part of the local language even though he=20 mainly writes in English. He has grown into it, made it his own, & now it gr= ows=20 with him. The first thing I wrote down in my preparatory notes for this piec= e=20 was "adopt, adapt, adept". // The hay(na)ku is still a young form, but with=20 Singers such as Ernesto Priego working their magic with it, it will have peo= ple=20 listening for a very long time. --from the Foreword by Mark Young The weirdly christened, pun-intended brainchild of that Thomas Alva Edison o= f=20 contemporary poetry, Eileen Tabios, the jainak=FA (aka hay(na)ku) becomes tr= uly=20 global in NOT EVEN DOGS, and Ernesto Priego may rightfully claim to have=20 elevated it to an art form. --Eric Gamalinda, author of ZERO GRAVITY and AMIGO WARFARE=20 ***** Praise For Ernesto Priego's Poems: I find so many of Ernesto's poems breathtaking, and I've never used that=20 phrase before but it fits. I breathe in deep for the "AH!" awe of awesome p= oetry=20 when you catch it in the act-of becoming, becoming a part of this person,=20 here, right now, you, in the reading. --Lorna Dee Cervantes, author of DRIVE: THE FIRST QUARTET "These are delicate, spare lyrics of love, loss, and introspection." -K. Silem Mohammad, author of A THOUSAND DEVILS and DEER HEAD NATION Ernesto Priego's poems magnify minutiae. When each poem closes in on dust,=20 colour, emotions, flesh-its aches and pains, every word must tremble on the=20= rim=20 of falling. I observe how"miss" is loaded: abstain, avoid, fail to hit its=20 mark, yearn.... --Ivy =C1lvarez, author of MORTAL ***** ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Born in Mexico City, Ernesto Priego is an essayist, teacher and translator.=20= =20 He is interested in everything having to do with poetry, graphic narratives=20 and pop music.=20 ***** DESIGN: Cover art reproduces a painting by Rodrigo Priego. Book design by=20 Michelle Bautista. ***** DISTRIBUTION: NOT EVEN DOGS is available online through Lulu.com (or directly at=20 http://www.lulu.com/content/273703) as well as from Meritage Press (contact=20 MeritagePress@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:55:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Dodie Bellamy's summer prose workshop Comments: To: ampersand@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dodie Bellamy's Prose Workshop This summer I will be leading a prose workshop, which will meet 11 Monday evenings, from 7 to 10 p.m. The dates: June 5 through August 28 (no class June 19 and July 3). Cost: $350, with a $100 deposit due by May 31. By prose I mean fiction, nonfiction, prose poetry, cross-genre (and cross-gender) writing including (but not exclusively) anything edgy or experimental. It's a good place to present work that feels too risky or sexy or queer for academic workshops. The workshops are totally open-ended. Five people present a week, scheduling that the week ahead. Usually people bring in something 5 pages or less (copies for everybody) and we critique it that week. Longer pieces are also okay, but they need to be handed out a week ahead of time for people to read. Each student typically gets a half an hour each time we critique. The classes are limited to 9 students. Lots and lots of personal attention. They take place in my South of Market apartment, which comes complete with snacks and two cats. Pink Steam, my collection of fiction, memoir, and memoiresque essays, was published in 2005 by San Francisco's Suspect Thoughts Press. My vampire novel, The Letters of Mina Harker was reprinted by University of Wisconsin Press, also in 2005. Academonia, a book of esays, is forthcoming. I'm the author of 3 other books and I teach creative writing at SF State and in the MFA program at Antioch Los Angeles. I've also taught at CalArts, Naropa summer session, Mills, USF, UC Santa Cruz, and the SF Art Institute. I'm the winner of the Bay Guardian Goldie Award for Literature and the Firecracker Alternative Book Award for Poetry. If you're interested, please email about work samples, etc. Or--if you know anybody who might be interested, please pass this email along to them. If you're interested do contact me promptly. Preference give to those not currently enrolled in a grad writing program. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:51:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Buk words In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I just had the distinct comic pleasure of reading the excerpts from these Bukowski letters and thinking (imagining) "CB" was actually a very young Charles Bernstein and assumed the writer's "pissedness" was at the original root of Charles' future tracts against a poetry or language as that which absorbs! It seems way too wet down here to be either sustainable or much tolerable. And time for a way out into some other strategies. But clearly - and amusedly - I found myself wrong - and Buk clearly lived on - a variation on these letters, it seems. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. > "Spicer stupid to ask if you have read Lorca. Everybody has read Lorca. > Everybody has read anyting, everything. Why ask. I hate these meetings. Have > u read. oh yeah. he's good. how about. o yeah. he's good too..." > -- CB in a letter to Jory Sherman 7/9/1960 > > "I have just read the immortal poems of the ages and come away dull. I don't > know who's at fault; maybe it's the weather, but I sense a lot of pretense > and poesy footwork: I am writing a poem, they seem to say, look at me! > Poetry must be forgotten; we must get down to raw paint, splatter. I think a > man should be forced to write in a roomful of skulls, bits of raw meat > hanging, nibbled by fat slothy rats, the sockets musicless staring into the > wet ether-sogged, love-sogged, hate-sogged brain, and forevermore the > rockets and flares and chains of history winging like bats, bat-flap and > smoke and skulls ringing in the beer. Yes." > -- CB in a letter to Jory Sherman 1961? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 19:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Buk words In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Oooh, that's an interesting idea. Reimagine "World on Fire" as though it were written by Bukowski. On 5/8/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > I just had the distinct comic pleasure of reading the excerpts from these > Bukowski letters and thinking (imagining) "CB" was actually a very young > Charles Bernstein and assumed the writer's "pissedness" was at the > original > root of Charles' future tracts against a poetry or language as that which > absorbs! It seems way too wet down here to be either sustainable or much > tolerable. And time for a way out into some other strategies. > > But clearly - and amusedly - I found myself wrong - and Buk clearly live= d > on - a variation on these letters, it seems. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Currently home of the Tenderly series, > A serial work in progress. > > > > "Spicer stupid to ask if you have read Lorca. Everybody has read Lorca. > > Everybody has read anyting, everything. Why ask. I hate these meetings. > Have > > u read. oh yeah. he's good. how about. o yeah. he's good too..." > > -- CB in a letter to Jory Sherman 7/9/1960 > > > > "I have just read the immortal poems of the ages and come away dull. I > don't > > know who's at fault; maybe it's the weather, but I sense a lot of > pretense > > and poesy footwork: I am writing a poem, they seem to say, look at me! > > Poetry must be forgotten; we must get down to raw paint, splatter. I > think a > > man should be forced to write in a roomful of skulls, bits of raw meat > > hanging, nibbled by fat slothy rats, the sockets musicless staring into > the > > wet ether-sogged, love-sogged, hate-sogged brain, and forevermore the > > rockets and flares and chains of history winging like bats, bat-flap an= d > > smoke and skulls ringing in the beer. Yes." > > -- CB in a letter to Jory Sherman 1961? > -- http://hyperhypo.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 00:10:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sabyasachi: you say, "I am no fan of Bill Collins, but this Bill Bashing, isn=B9t it somehow related to putting a stamp saying =B3Elite=B2 o= n our personal scales ?" =20 Well, if we can say we HATE apple sauce, and I mean really HATE IT then is that "Elite"? But I also said it was his TEN PAGES in the antholog= y that got me all crazy. C'mon! TEN PAGES! AH! Call me whatever name you want, but TEN PAGES from the man whose introductions have begun "poetry should not be difficult to read" just makes me nothing but angry. TEN PAGES says, "Hey, THIS GUY REALLY COUNTS Oxford! Yeah, Olson's OKAY, but, THIS GUY COLLINS IS SUPER DUPER!" Bullshit! =20 TEN PAGES with so many genius poets who have written! Poets who really GAVE A DAMN about the challenges that faced them with making it all new, again. You know what, fuck Billy Collins! I'm not making any apologies or excuses, it's just simply that. If he JUST WROTE his poems and sold his millions of books and was HAPPY ABOUT THAT then that would be fine. But the fucker has been making a point of TELLING THE WORLD THAT POETRY should be his touch me tenderly greeting card. Saying that the momentum gained from generations of American poets is silly is so hard it hurts it hurts, if HATING him for that makes me=20 "Elite" then fry me to a crispy Elite char. =20 I'd like to take Billy Collins back to Jack Spicer at the bar, see who gets to eat who first! But you never know, maybe Jack would find Billy kind of hot. But probably not. =20 In fact I want to write a play with a very long scene where I send men back to be sacrificial slaves for Jack Spicer's sexual needs. This scene as exorcism, as resurrection, any takers? Raise your hands, don't be=20 so damned shy. =20 Mark Wallace: First, glad you shared so much. That was quite a sharing! =20 You know what though, every time THIS part of the Bukowski conversation comes up the word "violence" gets tossed in. And I know you were not saying that he was violent, but... =20 ...but the word always gets tossed in. You know? It's like leading the witness of some such shit. The idea of violence against women has no place in a discussion about Bukowski because it's wrong. His drive for sex, for women, and his big mouth have nothing to do with such things. He has never written about violence on women, rape, or any such thing as being good, ever. He's never, ever, once, not once, said such a thing. And while you DIDN'T say that he did, you did use the word "violence" which always comes up, and I feel it's important to clarify these things. =20 Class issues are bigger and hairier than ever. Not tooting my own horn here so much as using a personal example: I'm in a queer working class anthology just out called EVERYTHING I HAVE IS BLUE (Suspect Thoughts Press). It's the FIRST of its kind. And I'll tell you right now, the good press and support it's getting is from the heterosexual left and the heterosexual labor groups the most, it seems. Queers don't like to talk about it with me. They think it's a stupid idea for an anthology. =20 WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY, by the way, when working class queers who=20 worked for Cracker Barrel Restaurants were fired BECAUSE they were queer (I'm NOT making this up, look it up, and it WAS and STILL IS very legal to do this), the queer press tuned it out. It was outrageous HOW ignored it was. And why was it ignored? Because the fancy queers who took over the queer "community" have been shuffling as far away from such economically disadvantaged folks in the "community" every since Stonewall. And trust me when I say that Stonewall was very much a REVOLT made by the most disenfranchised, the poor, the drag queens, the butch lesbians. All the little young Republican fags scurried out the back door. People got their heads kicked in that night, and you know what, they still are getting them kicked in! =20 Those picketing queers outside Cracker Barrel got hit with baseball=20 bats and such. =20 What's scary is WHAT is scary. Economics/class, it's a battleground each and every single person has inside. And folks WOULD MUCH RATHER discuss gender politics, race, sexism, rather than look at the class issues which REALLY ARE at the foundation of all the other issues folks would rather discuss. Bukowski was dangerous. =20 I know that sounds DRAMATIC of me to say that, but dammit he really fucking WAS and apparently STILL IS dangerous. He pushes the great big buttons. He pushes all of the buttons on the panel in some poems, for some people. =20 But I'll tell you this while I'm being DRAMATIC, that Bukowski was a big help for a young kid poet like I was when I discovered him because he gave me a sense of my underclass as not being so bad. In fact, better than that, that I could be COOL TOO! You know? Why not, poor, delinquent big mouth big fag? Yeah! =20 A combination of Punk Rock and Bukowski gave me a healthy attitude about the world. (in fact Punk Rock and Bukowski can lead you to Buddha, to be vegetarian, to giving a shit about every life you touch and get touched by.) Bukowski is EXACTLY what=20 every kid poet NEEDS in some important ways, to get that=20 SHAKE in the limbs, the anger, the lust, vibrating and getting=20 you down the road where the language itself soon wants to be=20 the importance. =20 To be honest it would REALLY PISS OFF Bukowski fans (And I mean SERIOUS Bukowski fans) to hear me talking about his work as being something like sixth grade for poets. But I'm really NOT meaning it as an insult at all. To Bukowski I would apologize. Of course never to Billy Collins. Bukowski really will set the jet fuel in motion for a young mind, while Billy Collins will keep you on gummy bears for the rest of your life. Shit, maybe I am an Elitist jerk for saying this. I mean for saying that about gummy=20 bears of course, because they're SO GOOD! Especially in=20 strawberry smoothies. =20 All I ask is, if Bukowski REALLY RATTLES YOU, gets you pissed, just take a second and ask why, please. It's really interesting with all the names mentioned at the beginning of this thread, it's Bukowski we've spent so much time on. =20 CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_=20 (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/)=20 "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be =20 restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_=20 (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/)=20 for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_=20 (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com)=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 07:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Halle Subject: Raymond L. Bianchi @ Seven Corners Comments: To: "alexmfrankel@earthlink.net" , Anne Waldman , Bhisham Bherwani , Bob Archambeau , Cheryl Keeler , DAVID PAVELICH , "Deniord, Chard" , "desert_13@hotmail.com" , "f.lord@snhu.edu" , Bill Garvey , "Bowen, Kristy" , brandihoman@hotmail.com, "Chapman, Joanne" , Chris Glomski , Chris Goodrich , Craig Halle , Daniel Godston , Dan Pedersen , "E. Tracy Grinnell" , Ela Kotkowska , Garin Cycholl , grant-jenkins@utulsa.edu, Heather Halle , Jacqueline Gens , James DeFrain , Jay Rubin , jeremy@invisible-city.com, Jules Gibbs , Julianna McCarthy , "K. R." , kdeger@saintviator.com, kerri@conundrumpoetry.com, Kristin Prevallet , Lauren Kelliher , "Lea C. Deschenes" , "lesliesysko@hotmail.com" , Malia Hwang-Carlos , Margaret Doane , Mark Tardi , MartinD , Matt Gruenfeld , Michael OLeary , Monica Halle , "mountaingirl523@hotmail.com" , Nikki Hildreth , "Odelius, Kristy Lee" , pba1@surewest.net, pen@splab.org, Peter Sommers , Randolph Healy , Ross Gay , rstonecipher@saintviator.com, Simone Muench , timothy daisy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline New poems by *Raymond L. Bianchi* are up @ *Seven Corners* ( www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com). Please check out Ray's work. Best, Steve Halle Editor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 06:23:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post goes visual (& Italian)!!! Comments: To: "cmccabe@rfh.org.uk" , "js@johnsiddique.co.uk" , "derek@theadamsresidence.co.uk" , "cordite@cordite.org.au" , "argotist@fsmail.net" , aduncan@pinko.org, marywgraham@yahoo.com, jeffreyethan@att.net, a.waldman@mindspring.com, jgens@sover.net, sglassman@comcast.net, val@writtenpicture.co.uk, peter@greatworks.org.uk, fourteen_red_circles@yahoo.co.uk, mgwaters@salisbury.edu, Lse664@aol.com, samwallack@hotmail.com, poeticbalance@yahoo.com, golden.notebook@gmail.com, mountaingirl523@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New on PFS Post: two collages from Italian artist & graphic designer Claudio Parentela, curated by Diana Magallon (www.artrecess.blogspot.com). "Claudio Parentela’s collages skirt the fine line between high art & fashion, the timeless & the trendy. He renders a new kind of portrait, imaginatively split between loosely applied black ink & artfully cropped photographs. Parentela’s women are seductresses, muses, & androgynous pixies all at once, daring us to enter a Surrealistic, immaculately stylized, glamorous world where appearances & realities may or may not coincide. The dichotomous nature of Parentela’s vision suggests a sensibility torn between grounded, everyday reality & the hyper-real realm of dream & fantasy. Erotic overtones are overt, gender distinctions blurry, everything works towards the transcendent end of presenting things as they are not. What we get from this is a feeling of pleasant disorientation, a sort of post-“Vogue” trance. This is “high fashion” taken to the next level, presented as fully realized works of post-Surrealist art." Also, new on Stoning the Devil (www.adamfieled.blogspot.com): Wordsworth & the Beatles, da Vinci & the Beach Boys, prose poems, 1st Fridays in Philly, Sam Flores, much, much more.... --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:48:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sabyasachi Sanyal Subject: Re: Conrad on Billy In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Conrad, Wow, wow wow.=20 Thanks. Frankly, I am in your shoes, even if they itch a lot :-). Anyone saying =B3poetry should not be difficult to read=B2 is to be hated. I hate him as much. I just took the =B3Bill Bashing=B2 as an example. =B3A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status: =B3In addition to notions of social equality there was much emphasis on the role of elites and of heroes within them=B2 ( This is how Times Literary Supplement defines =B3elite=B2). =B3=20 I was just trying to make a point (make a point ?? Not exactly, rather ponder over a point). When we judge something=8B eg. As you are judging the anthology in terms of the publisher=B9s decision to put the number of poems b= y Billy vs significant others ( fun intended), aren=B9t we at some point or other considering ourselves intellectually superior than those publishers ? Somehow, does this not have even the vaguest connection with =8B an effort to reach a decision making status, whereby we could negate those publishers=B9 decisions and in doing so aren=B9t we striving to reach a status that can be very similar to =B3elite=B2 (Especially, when it is no more just personal distaste, with people supporting your notion at a public place, me too). I was just trying to figure out, whether every revolution ultimately leads to establishing an elite status for the =B3working class=B2 and whether that is th= e end result of every effort towards achieving excellence. Sorry, if I hurt your feelings. I didn=B9t mean to. Regards Sabyasachi =20 Dear Sabyasachi: you say, "I am no fan of Bill Collins, but this Bill Bashing, isn=8Ft it somehow related to putting a stamp saying =BDElite=85 on our personal scales ?" =20 Well, if we can say we HATE apple sauce, and I mean really HATE IT then is that "Elite"? But I also said it was his TEN PAGES in the anthology that got me all crazy. C'mon! TEN PAGES! AH! Call me whatever name you want, but TEN PAGES from the man whose introductions have begun "poetry should not be difficult to read" just makes me nothing but angry. TEN PAGES says, "Hey, THIS GUY REALLY COUNTS Oxford! Yeah, Olson's OKAY, but, THIS GUY COLLINS IS SUPER DUPER!" Bullshit! =20 TEN PAGES with so many genius poets who have written! Poets who really GAVE A DAMN about the challenges that faced them with making it all new, again. You know what, fuck Billy Collins! I'm not making any apologies or excuses, it's just simply that. If he JUST WROTE his poems and sold his millions of books and was HAPPY ABOUT THAT then that would be fine. But the fucker has been making a point of TELLING THE WORLD THAT POETRY should be his touch me tenderly greeting card. Saying that the momentum gained from generations of American poets is silly is so hard it hurts it hurts, if HATING him for that makes me "Elite" then fry me to a crispy Elite char. =20 I'd like to take Billy Collins back to Jack Spicer at the bar, see who get= s to eat who first! But you never know, maybe Jack would find Billy kind of hot. But probably not. =20 In fact I want to write a play with a very long scene where I send men back to be sacrificial slaves for Jack Spicer's sexual needs. This scene as exorcism, as resurrection, any takers? Raise your hands, don't be so damned shy. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:21:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shanxing Wang Subject: May 16, 2006 @ Dixon Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline SHANXING WANG + LYNN MCGEE Tuesday, May 16, 2006 Experiments & Disorders @ Dixon Place, 258 Bowery (between Houston and Stanton) 7:00pm: $5: 212.219.0761 Hosted by Sherry Mason & Paul Foster Johnson Born and educated in China, SHANXING WANG moved to the United States as a Ph.D. student in mechanical engineering in the early 1990s. He studied at the University of California, Berkeley, and taught engineering at Rutgers University, where he also took courses in creative writing. He was a 2003 finalist for the PEN USA Emerging Voices Rosenthal Fellowship, and a recipient of Zora Neale Hurston Scholarship from the Summer Writing Program 2003 at Naropa University. Mad Science in Imperial City (Futurepoem, 2005) is his first book. He lives and writes in Queens, New York. LYNN MCGEE's chapbook, Bonanza, was a winner of the Slapering Hol Press contest. Her work has appeared in the Kennesaw Review, Ontario Review, Painted Bride Quarterly, Phoebe, and other journals. A winner of the Judith's Room and In Our Own Write contests, a MacDowell fellowship, and other awards, Lynn coordinates a GED program for the City University of New York and recently founded a GED program at the GLBT Community Center in Manhattan for queer and trans youth who dropped out of high school. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:50:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Dear Sabyasachi, and ------- Bukowski IS Buddha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sabyasachi, first and most important NO you did not hurt my feelings. We're having a conversation, everything's fine. In fact, if you had any idea what I've been through in this life you would realize just how far you really would have to go to HURT my feelings. Back to the conversation. It's so easy for Billy Collins to be looked upon as this benign, sweet guy writing poems. He's NOT. You read his prose ON poetry, what he is TELLING his massive audience what NOT to read, then you'll understand why it's time to confront him. It's dangerous, lousy advice he gives. It's the SAME sort of shit that was whispered in my ear over and over and over when I first moved to Philadelphia as a kid. There was all this BUZZ about Language Poets and BEWARE! Hehehe! It's so funny now. And at the time I was and still am someone who WANTED TO SEE exactly what it was they were telling me was so dangerous. But not every young mind is like that. Some have too much RESPECT for authority (wish we could break that down some more!) and Billy (the quiet Bully) Collins waves a gentle flourish dismissing everyone and everything ever published by, let's say, Cid Corman for starters. There's only so many seconds of life, only so many breaths to breathe, and SO MUCH OF IT wasted listening to his misguided cheery directives. And I want very much to point out that, in Philadelphia in those days, we were MOST fortunate to have Gil Ott and Chris Stroffolino. Gil Ott was publishing PAPER AIR Magazine, which later turned into Singing Horse Press. And Gil was right in the middle of everything DESPITE the snarls he put up with as he defended Charles Bernstein, defended Silliman's AMERICAN TREE, etc., etc., (and he was SUCH A SMART GUY, seeing some smartass kid like me who gave Silliman's anthology a glance, and he said, CONRAD, you need to check out Stephen Roedefer in that book. i was hooked!) Then we had Chris Stroffolino, probably the VERY FIRST person to bring Alice Notley to Philadelphia to read. Well, in my time at least. Notley and a host of other amazing poets. So, there was harsh elbow rubbing going on, but there's far more room these days in Philly for all schools of experimentation thanks to the likes of Temple and Penn, AND THOSE not affiliated. I'm not affiliated. But am glad we're all here! Lots to get done! --- For all the backchannels questioning my Bukowski Is The Way To Buddha comments made. This is something I feel it's SAFE for me to say BECAUSE I'm queer, and because I've been persecuted for being queer. To say that, all the time I spent POINTING MY FINGER at straight white guys as a kid for the suffering I went through was delayed time for me seeing me. Does this make sense? Bukowski's insights in the later poems were still his bitchy grumpy self, but he had reflected SO MUCH on who he was and who he was becoming (all the layers of that) that you can see how he had come to a higher understanding of everything around him. Bukowski's World View became so much bigger BECAUSE he kept going forward with the examination despite the conflicts coming at him for doing so. In fact it's probably safe to say that those who were disagreeable with his direction fueled him. He was a tenacious Soul. BUT, does this make sense in the FACT that, while someone like me was busy pointing the finger outside of myself, straight white guys like Bukowski had NO WHERE to point the finger but inside. And Bukowski saw himself SAW HIMSELF over and over and over and he got to work in the world inside a strength which takes the rest of us a longer time to get to, if we get to it. How important to get to it, to get things done, real things, beautiful things, CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 13:48:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hsn Subject: Re: Conrad & Horton on Bukowski on class on poetry on art In-Reply-To: <2fd.4835a6d.31917027@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> from the man whose introductions have begun "poetry should not be difficult to read" just makes me nothing but angry.<< >>But the fucker has been making a point of TELLING THE WORLD THAT POETRY should be his touch me tenderly greeting card.<< I don't mean to argue with you Conrad because I really know very little about Billy Collins or the intro you spoke of. But in his defense I have reason to question his intention if not the context of it -- based on this poem he wrote: ************** Introduction to Poetry I ask them to take a poem and hold it up to the light like a color slide or press an ear against its hive. I say drop a mouse into a poem and watch him probe his way out, or walk inside the poem's room and feel the walls for a light switch. I want them to waterski across the surface of a poem waving at the author's name on the shore. But all they want to do is tie the poem to a chair with rope and torture a confession out of it. They begin beating it with a hose to find out what it really means. ***************** I know about this poem only because a few years back my brother, a very bright man, emailed to say he didn't understand my work. He included this poem in the email & said it helped him realize that he didn't need to torture my poems to figure out what they meant, that he could just wave to me as he skied across them. I was actually quite grateful to BC for that. & it's helped me articulate to a few newbies the approach to [perhaps difficult] art undaunted. xx, hassen PS my 2cent op ed elitism implies that the passage in is narrow if non-existent. direction, perspective, information (like the above poem) in reference to deciphering some creative modes/works makes the idea of elitism moot when discussing art. without it, I'd venture to agree that difficult poetry IS elitist. but the issue of elitism in Art is entirely irrelevant (sd at the risk of voiding this entire paragraph). individual elitism is a different subject altogether. those are the artists who put the cart (ego) before the horse (art/craft) as it were & refuse to engage with the uh layperson . it's critical to share instruction, information, etc. in all social aspects politics, class, economics. "Providing passage for others is the ultimate, if not only, anti-elitist act," she sd, with little time to sort out the implication or comprehensiveness of that statement. but it would support Conrad's statement that Bukowski et al is the path to Buddha (or whatever). as well as Billy Collins. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:07:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: cfp Bob Dylan symposium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Highway 61, the main thoroughfare of the country=20 blues, begins where I came from=8AI always felt=20 like I'd started on it, always had been on it and=20 could go anywhere from it=8AIt was my place in the=20 universe, always felt it was in my blood." -Chronicles, Vol. I Highway 61 Revisited Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World A Bob Dylan Symposium University of Minnesota-Minneapolis March 25 -27, 2007 Call for Paper and Session Proposals In conjunction with its presentation of the=20 exhibition Bob Dylan's American Journey,=20 1956-1966, the Weisman Art Museum at the=20 University of Minnesota is organizing a major=20 symposium on Bob Dylan to take place on the=20 Minneapolis campus March 25 to 27, 2007. U.S. Highway 61 begins at the Canadian-Minnesota=20 border, runs along Lake Superior to Duluth=20 (Dylan's birthplace), skirting close to Hibbing,=20 Minnesota, where Robert Zimmerman grew up and=20 graduated from high school. The legendary "Blues=20 Highway" runs through the Twin Cities, following=20 the Mississippi south to St. Louis, Memphis, and=20 Clarksdale, Mississippi, ending in New Orleans.=20 This symposium aims to explore Dylan's journey=20 from Minnesota to the wider nation and the world,=20 viewing Highway 61 as a route of geographic and=20 artistic odyssey and as a metaphorical space of=20 encounters, tests and tricks, fantastical=20 experiences, and re-invention. The road connects=20 Dylan to multifarious musical, cultural, and=20 artistic histories and links other places and=20 cultures to Dylan. The three-day symposium aims to both generate and=20 present new research and interpretations of=20 Dylan, his career, his artistic output, his=20 milieus, his influences, and his impact=20 worldwide. In particular, the organizing=20 committee seeks to explore the local and the=20 global and possible connections between the two.=20 On one hand, the symposium will examine Dylan's=20 Minnesota roots and influences from the Iron=20 Range and Minneapolis (Dylan in Minnesota;=20 Minnesota in Dylan). Alternately, we are=20 interested in the global dimensions of Dylan's=20 work, including both the singer's use of world=20 music, literature, philosophies, art, and=20 religious thought, and also his impact and=20 reception in specific scenes (musical, literary,=20 political, fashion) and cultures around the=20 world. (See reverse for possible topics.) Proposals for papers or for entire sessions can=20 be submitted online with a deadline of November=20 1, 2006. Proposals should include a one-page=20 abstract and a one-page bio or c.v. with complete=20 contact information. Entire sessions can also be=20 proposed with a main contact person indicated and=20 all speakers confirmed. Abstracts and bios/c.v.=20 of each speaker is needed for session proposals.=20 Online submission will available by September 1,=20 2006 =46or more information or questions about the=20 symposium contact Colleen Sheehy, Weisman Art=20 Museum, sheeh001@umn.edu or 612-625-9677. The art, culture, and history of Hibbing,=20 Minnesota Iron Range history,=20 politics, labor Jewish culture on the Iron Range=20 Music on the Iron Range=20 Where/What is Highway 61? Dylan's=20 status and reception on the Iron Range Dylan's=20 problematic relationship to "home" The "new"=20 Dylans Dylan's influence on other musicians=20 Unpretty: Dylan sonically=20 The Beatles and Dylan Dylan and=20 punk Dylan and hip-hop Dylan and Prince Dylan and black=20 music Dylan and country music Dylan as=20 "musical expeditionary" Dylan's impact on=20 Minnesota music Piracy of Dylan's music Dylan's=20 use and/or influence on social protest movements=20 abroad Dylan's reception in England,=20 Italy, Israel, Palestine, Japan, and other=20 countries Dylan's impact on international=20 music Dylan, Ginsberg, and the Beats=20 Dylan and the symbolist poets=20 Dylan in literature Dylan and=20 surrealism, dada, the avant-garde=20 Dylan's University of Dinkytown=20 Minneapolis music circa 1960=20 Dylan's geographies Dylan's bohemian=20 communities Dylan and musical diasporas=20 Dylan's cultural diaspora: routes and=20 roots Dylan and fashion Dylan and=20 motorcycles Dylan impersonators/tribute bands=20 Gender in Dylan/Dylan's gender=20 Dylan and sexuality Dylan and=20 class Dylan and Civil Rights Dylan and the=20 Cold War Dylan and Jewish culture=20 and identity Dylan and religion/religious=20 permutations Dylan and the Bible=20 Dylan's image in photography=20 Dylan in film Dylan as author Dylan on=20 Dylan: as writer, as=20 self-fashioner/self-fabricator Dylan criticism=20 Dylan's library What on Dylan's=20 iPod? Highway 61 Revisited Symposium Committee Hy Berman Marilyn Chiat Susan=20 Clayton Maria Damon Susan Hoffman Judith=20 Katz Alex Lubet Todd Mahon=20 Peter Mercer Taylor Lary May Elaine May John Mowitt Kevin=20 Murphy Marcia Pankake Riv-Ellen Prell Paula Rabinowitz Gil=20 Rodman Linda Schloff Colleen Sheehy Madelon Sprengnether Ellen Stekert=20 Paul Stone Thom Swiss ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:58:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But is Dylan going to be there? charles At 12:07 PM 5/9/2006, you wrote: >"Highway 61, the main thoroughfare of the country blues, begins where I=20 >came from=8AI always felt like I'd started on it, always had been on it and= =20 >could go anywhere from it=8AIt was my place in the universe, always felt it= =20 >was in my blood." >-Chronicles, Vol. I > > >Highway 61 Revisited >Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World > >A Bob Dylan Symposium >University of Minnesota-Minneapolis >March 25 -27, 2007 > > >Call for Paper and Session Proposals > >In conjunction with its presentation of the exhibition Bob Dylan's=20 >American Journey, 1956-1966, the Weisman Art Museum at the University of=20 >Minnesota is organizing a major symposium on Bob Dylan to take place on=20 >the Minneapolis campus March 25 to 27, 2007. >U.S. Highway 61 begins at the Canadian-Minnesota border, runs along Lake=20 >Superior to Duluth (Dylan's birthplace), skirting close to Hibbing,=20 >Minnesota, where Robert Zimmerman grew up and graduated from high school.= =20 >The legendary "Blues Highway" runs through the Twin Cities, following the= =20 >Mississippi south to St. Louis, Memphis, and Clarksdale, Mississippi,=20 >ending in New Orleans. This symposium aims to explore Dylan's journey from= =20 >Minnesota to the wider nation and the world, viewing Highway 61 as a route= =20 >of geographic and artistic odyssey and as a metaphorical space of=20 >encounters, tests and tricks, fantastical experiences, and=20 >re-invention. The road connects Dylan to multifarious musical, cultural,= =20 >and artistic histories and links other places and cultures to Dylan. >The three-day symposium aims to both generate and present new research and= =20 >interpretations of Dylan, his career, his artistic output, his milieus,=20 >his influences, and his impact worldwide. In particular, the organizing=20 >committee seeks to explore the local and the global and possible=20 >connections between the two. On one hand, the symposium will examine=20 >Dylan's Minnesota roots and influences from the Iron Range and Minneapolis= =20 >(Dylan in Minnesota; Minnesota in Dylan). Alternately, we are interested=20 >in the global dimensions of Dylan's work, including both the singer's use= =20 >of world music, literature, philosophies, art, and religious thought, and= =20 >also his impact and reception in specific scenes (musical, literary,=20 >political, fashion) and cultures around the world. (See reverse for=20 >possible topics.) > >Proposals for papers or for entire sessions can be submitted online with a= =20 >deadline of November 1, 2006. Proposals should include a one-page abstract= =20 >and a one-page bio or c.v. with complete contact information. Entire=20 >sessions can also be proposed with a main contact person indicated and all= =20 >speakers confirmed. Abstracts and bios/c.v. of each speaker is needed for= =20 >session proposals. Online submission will available by September 1, 2006 > >For more information or questions about the symposium contact Colleen=20 >Sheehy, Weisman Art Museum, sheeh001@umn.edu or 612-625-9677. > > >The art, culture, and history of Hibbing, Minnesota Iron Range= =20 >history, politics, labor Jewish culture on the Iron=20 >Range Music on the Iron Range Where/What is Highway= =20 >61? Dylan's status and reception on the Iron Range Dylan's=20 >problematic relationship to "home" The "new" Dylans Dylan's=20 >influence on other musicians Unpretty: Dylan sonically The=20 >Beatles and Dylan Dylan and punk Dylan and hip-hop >Dylan and Prince Dylan and black music Dylan and country= =20 >music Dylan as "musical expeditionary" Dylan's impact on=20 >Minnesota music Piracy of Dylan's music Dylan's use and/or influence= =20 >on social protest movements abroad Dylan's reception in England,=20 >Italy, Israel, Palestine, Japan, and other countries Dylan's impact=20 >on international music Dylan, Ginsberg, and the Beats Dylan and the=20 >symbolist poets Dylan in literature Dylan and surrealism,=20 >dada, the avant-garde Dylan's University of=20 >Dinkytown Minneapolis music circa 1960 Dylan's=20 >geographies Dylan's bohemian communities Dylan and musical=20 >diasporas Dylan's cultural diaspora: routes and roots Dylan and=20 >fashion Dylan and motorcycles Dylan impersonators/tribute=20 >bands Gender in Dylan/Dylan's gender Dylan and=20 >sexuality Dylan and class Dylan and Civil Rights Dylan and=20 >the Cold War Dylan and Jewish culture and identity Dylan and=20 >religion/religious permutations Dylan and the Bible Dylan's image in=20 >photography Dylan in film Dylan as author Dylan on Dylan: as writer,= =20 >as self-fashioner/self-fabricator Dylan criticism Dylan's=20 >library What on Dylan's iPod? > >Highway 61 Revisited Symposium Committee >Hy Berman Marilyn Chiat Susan Clayton Maria=20 >Damon Susan Hoffman Judith Katz Alex Lubet Todd=20 >Mahon Peter Mercer Taylor Lary May >Elaine May John Mowitt Kevin Murphy Marcia=20 >Pankake Riv-Ellen Prell >Paula Rabinowitz Gil Rodman Linda=20 >Schloff Colleen Sheehy >Madelon Sprengnether Ellen Stekert Paul=20 >Stone Thom Swiss > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:54:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think he lacks the academic qualifications, Charles. ;-)=20 cheers, d.i. david raphael israel http://kirwani.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of charles alexander Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:58 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium But is Dylan going to be there? charles At 12:07 PM 5/9/2006, you wrote: >"Highway 61, the main thoroughfare of the country blues, begins where I = >came from=A9I always felt like I'd started on it, always had been on it = >and could go anywhere from it=A9It was my place in the universe, always = >felt it was in my blood." >-Chronicles, Vol. I > > >Highway 61 Revisited >Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World > >A Bob Dylan Symposium >University of Minnesota-Minneapolis >March 25 -27, 2007 > > >Call for Paper and Session Proposals [etc.] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 14:54:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20060509125727.02d5e718@mail.theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable he will, of course, be invited. but that, as we all know, is no guarantee. At 12:58 PM -0700 5/9/06, charles alexander wrote: >But is Dylan going to be there? > >charles > >At 12:07 PM 5/9/2006, you wrote: >>"Highway 61, the main thoroughfare of the=20 >>country blues, begins where I came from=8AI=20 >>always felt like I'd started on it, always had=20 >>been on it and could go anywhere from it=8AIt was=20 >>my place in the universe, always felt it was in=20 >>my blood." >>-Chronicles, Vol. I >> >> >>Highway 61 Revisited >>Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World >> >>A Bob Dylan Symposium >>University of Minnesota-Minneapolis >>March 25 -27, 2007 >> >> >>Call for Paper and Session Proposals >> >>In conjunction with its presentation of the=20 >>exhibition Bob Dylan's American Journey,=20 >>1956-1966, the Weisman Art Museum at the=20 >>University of Minnesota is organizing a major=20 >>symposium on Bob Dylan to take place on the=20 >>Minneapolis campus March 25 to 27, 2007. >>U.S. Highway 61 begins at the=20 >>Canadian-Minnesota border, runs along Lake=20 >>Superior to Duluth (Dylan's birthplace),=20 >>skirting close to Hibbing, Minnesota, where=20 >>Robert Zimmerman grew up and graduated from=20 >>high school. The legendary "Blues Highway" runs=20 >>through the Twin Cities, following the=20 >>Mississippi south to St. Louis, Memphis, and=20 >>Clarksdale, Mississippi, ending in New Orleans.=20 >>This symposium aims to explore Dylan's journey=20 >>from Minnesota to the wider nation and the=20 >>world, viewing Highway 61 as a route of=20 >>geographic and artistic odyssey and as a=20 >>metaphorical space of encounters, tests and=20 >>tricks, fantastical experiences, and=20 >>re-invention. The road connects Dylan to=20 >>multifarious musical, cultural, and artistic=20 >>histories and links other places and cultures=20 >>to Dylan. >>The three-day symposium aims to both generate=20 >>and present new research and interpretations of=20 >>Dylan, his career, his artistic output, his=20 >>milieus, his influences, and his impact=20 >>worldwide. In particular, the organizing=20 >>committee seeks to explore the local and the=20 >>global and possible connections between the=20 >>two. On one hand, the symposium will examine=20 >>Dylan's Minnesota roots and influences from the=20 >>Iron Range and Minneapolis (Dylan in Minnesota;=20 >>Minnesota in Dylan). Alternately, we are=20 >>interested in the global dimensions of Dylan's=20 >>work, including both the singer's use of world=20 >>music, literature, philosophies, art, and=20 >>religious thought, and also his impact and=20 >>reception in specific scenes (musical,=20 >>literary, political, fashion) and cultures=20 >>around the world. (See reverse for possible=20 >>topics.) >> >>Proposals for papers or for entire sessions can=20 >>be submitted online with a deadline of November=20 >>1, 2006. Proposals should include a one-page=20 >>abstract and a one-page bio or c.v. with=20 >>complete contact information. Entire sessions=20 >>can also be proposed with a main contact person=20 >>indicated and all speakers confirmed. Abstracts=20 >>and bios/c.v. of each speaker is needed for=20 >>session proposals. Online submission will=20 >>available by September 1, 2006 >> >>For more information or questions about the=20 >>symposium contact Colleen Sheehy, Weisman Art=20 >>Museum, sheeh001@umn.edu or 612-625-9677. >> >> >>The art, culture, and history of Hibbing,=20 >>Minnesota Iron Range history,=20 >>politics, labor Jewish culture on the Iron=20 >>Range Music on the Iron Range=20 >>Where/What is Highway 61? Dylan's status=20 >>and reception on the Iron Range Dylan's=20 >>problematic relationship to "home" The=20 >>"new" Dylans Dylan's influence on other=20 >>musicians Unpretty: Dylan sonically=20 >>The Beatles and Dylan Dylan and punk=20 >>Dylan and hip-hop >>Dylan and Prince Dylan and black=20 >>music Dylan and country music Dylan=20 >>as "musical expeditionary" Dylan's=20 >>impact on Minnesota music Piracy of=20 >>Dylan's music Dylan's use and/or influence on=20 >>social protest movements abroad Dylan's=20 >>reception in England, Italy, Israel, Palestine,=20 >>Japan, and other countries Dylan's impact=20 >>on international music Dylan, Ginsberg, and=20 >>the Beats Dylan and the symbolist poets=20 >>Dylan in literature Dylan and=20 >>surrealism, dada, the avant-garde Dylan's=20 >>University of Dinkytown Minneapolis=20 >>music circa 1960 Dylan's geographies=20 >>Dylan's bohemian communities Dylan and=20 >>musical diasporas Dylan's cultural=20 >>diaspora: routes and roots Dylan and=20 >>fashion Dylan and motorcycles Dylan=20 >>impersonators/tribute bands=20 >>Gender in Dylan/Dylan's gender Dylan and=20 >>sexuality Dylan and class Dylan and=20 >>Civil Rights Dylan and the Cold War=20 >>Dylan and Jewish culture and identity Dylan=20 >>and religion/religious permutations Dylan and=20 >>the Bible Dylan's image in photography=20 >>Dylan in film Dylan as author Dylan on Dylan:=20 >>as writer, as self-fashioner/self-fabricator=20 >>Dylan criticism Dylan's library=20 >>What on Dylan's iPod? >> >>Highway 61 Revisited Symposium Committee >>Hy Berman Marilyn Chiat Susan=20 >>Clayton Maria Damon Susan Hoffman Judith=20 >>Katz Alex Lubet Todd Mahon=20 >>Peter Mercer Taylor Lary May >>Elaine May John Mowitt Kevin=20 >>Murphy Marcia Pankake Riv-Ellen Prell >>Paula Rabinowitz Gil=20 >>Rodman Linda Schloff Colleen=20 >>Sheehy >>Madelon Sprengnether Ellen Stekert=20 >>Paul Stone Thom Swiss ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 13:19:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium In-Reply-To: <0895E98850E5F247B725A30CCB9292C9454B89@EVS1.ntcorp.local> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-2" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Maria, why not invite him to dj a dance concert. I think he enjoys Audience participation, like, dance your Phd away, etc. Just a thought, Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. > I think he lacks the academic qualifications, Charles. ;-) >=20 > cheers, > d.i. >=20 >=20 > david raphael israel > http://kirwani.blogspot.com >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] O= n > Behalf Of charles alexander > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:58 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium >=20 > But is Dylan going to be there? >=20 > charles >=20 > At 12:07 PM 5/9/2006, you wrote: >> "Highway 61, the main thoroughfare of the country blues, begins where I >> came from=A9I always felt like I'd started on it, always had been on it >> and could go anywhere from it=A9It was my place in the universe, always >> felt it was in my blood." >> -Chronicles, Vol. I >>=20 >>=20 >> Highway 61 Revisited >> Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World >>=20 >> A Bob Dylan Symposium >> University of Minnesota-Minneapolis >> March 25 -27, 2007 >>=20 >>=20 >> Call for Paper and Session Proposals >=20 > [etc.] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:27:12 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And if he can't come you could do a call in on his new XM Satellite radio show and do a teleconference at the symposium: http://www.xmradio.com/bobdylan/. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Stephen Vincent Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium Maria, why not invite him to dj a dance concert. I think he enjoys Audience participation, like, dance your Phd away, etc. Just a thought, Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. > I think he lacks the academic qualifications, Charles. ;-) > > cheers, > d.i. > > > david raphael israel > http://kirwani.blogspot.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of charles alexander > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:58 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: cfp Bob Dylan symposium > > But is Dylan going to be there? > > charles > > At 12:07 PM 5/9/2006, you wrote: >> "Highway 61, the main thoroughfare of the country blues, begins where I >> came from©I always felt like I'd started on it, always had been on it >> and could go anywhere from it©It was my place in the universe, always >> felt it was in my blood." >> -Chronicles, Vol. I >> >> >> Highway 61 Revisited >> Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World >> >> A Bob Dylan Symposium >> University of Minnesota-Minneapolis >> March 25 -27, 2007 >> >> >> Call for Paper and Session Proposals > > [etc.] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:39:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: on elitism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, Those of you who are fighting over this term might well be reminded that the word 'elite' is simply the French equivalent of English 'elected', both deriving from Latin 'eligere' = 'to pick out, to choose, to select, to elect.' I don't know about the rest of you, but as for me the cultural baggage that comes with this word is way too heavy for me. The poet, the artist, as the chosen one? I myself wouldn't want to have anything to do with such a notion. Maybe that's why I have walked away from the religion of the poet. George Thompson, from out of nowhere ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:39:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Artist's Gallery Talk with Julie Chen this Friday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >==================================================================== >GALLERY TALK: JULIE CHEN AND FLYING FISH PRESS >==================================================================== > >Woodland Pattern Book Center presents: > >Artist's Gallery Talk with Julie Chen > >Friday, May 12, 2006 at 6:00 p.m. >Woodland Pattern Book Center >720 East Locust Street, Milwaukee > > >On Friday, May 12 at 6:00 p.m., internationally recognized book >artist Julie Chen will give a free gallery talk about her work with >Flying Fish Press. This event is part of a 5-day residency in >Milwaukee co-sponsored by Special Collections at the UWM Libraries >and Woodland Pattern Book Center, and supported in part by the >Friends of the Golda Meir Library and the Mary L. Nohl Foundation. > >Internationally renowned bookmaker Julie Chen is proprietor of >Flying Fish Press in Berkeley, where she creates and publishes many >sculptural, limited-edition artist's books. She teaches bookmaking >workshops around the country and is on the Mills College faculty. >Flying Fish Press, established by Chen in 1987, is dedicated to the >design and production of books that combine the quality and >craftsmanship of traditional letterpress printing with the >innovation and visual excitement of contemporary non-traditional >book structures and modern typography. There is an emphasis on book >structures that can function both traditionally as books and >sculpturally as objects to be displayed. Editions range in size from >10-150 copies. While Chen is currently focusing solely on the >publication of her own artists' books, the press has had a rich >history of producing collaborative projects with other visual >artists such as Nance O'Banion and Lois Morrison. > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/workshops/julie_chen.shtml > > > >==================================================================== >UPCOMING EVENTS >==================================================================== > >Thursday, 5/11: Advanced bookmaking with Julie Chen; 6-9 pm > >Saturday, 5/13: Beginning bookmaking with Julie Chen; 1-4 pm > >Friday, 5/19: Redletter: Juliet Patterson & Angie Vasquez; 7:00 > >Friday, 5/26: Film: Eteam's 1.1 Acre Flat Screen; 7:00 > >Sunday, 6/4: Alternating Currents Live: Black Earth Strings; 7:00 > >Sunday, 6/11: Open Letters with Renato Umali; 2:00 > >Friday, 6/16: Redletter: Joshua Beckman & Noelle Kocot; 7:00 > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/ > > >==================================================================== >IN THE GALLERY: BOOK WORKS FROM FLYING FISH PRESS >==================================================================== > >Flying Fish Press was established in 1987 by Julie Chen and is >dedicated to the design and production of books which combine the >quality and craftsmanship of traditional letterpress printing with >the innovation and visual excitement of contemporary non-traditional >book structures and modern typography. There is an emphasis on book >structures which can function both traditionally as books as well as >sculpturally as objects to be displayed. Editions range in size from >10-150 copies. While Julie is currently focusing solely on the >publication of her own artists' books, the press has had a rich >history of producing collaborative projects with other visual >artists such as Nance O’Banion and Lois Morrison. > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/workshops/julie_chen.shtml > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >To receive regular messages notifying you of Woodland Pattern >events, send a message to us at woodlandpattern@sbcglobal.net with >"Join E-List" in the subject line. > >To unsubscribe from these mailings send a reply with "unsubscribe" >in the subject line. > >PLEASE FORWARD! THANKS!!! > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/ > >Woodland Pattern Book Center >720 E. Locust Street >Milwaukee, WI 53212 >phone 414.263.5001 _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Truitt Subject: Re: on elitism In-Reply-To: <4460FDF9.1000402@adelphia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The bag of elitism in part can also, though, be traced to a slant of Alexandre Kojève's lectures in Paris in the 1930s on Hegel that could be viewed, I understand, in their tracing of Nietzsche, Marx and Heidegger, to the emergence at the "end of history" of an elite - a permanent oligarchy - a take which was brought to and propagated in the US via Leo Strauss. This of course lead to Paul Wolfkowitz et al's Project for the New American Century and our current spillage. According to this interpretation (Strauss, Bloom and the bunch), Kojève predicted the end of history in the triumph of capitalism - which as we are reminded by Mussolini is fascism perfected. It's really just base greed. We're all going to die and each generation in one way or another comes up with a view to place it as the one that gets to turn out the light. It takes the edge off. As below pointed out, we want to be "the choosen." We're all playing "please don't wake the dragon." As an antidote I would prefer Emerson's elitist jag as he reveals it in his lecture "The Poet": "We are all poets at last… Each of us is a part of eternity and immensity, a god walking in flesh, and the wildest fable that was ever invented, is less strange than this reality.” But then, sure, that's pure "religion of the poet," but then the way Emerson defines poet comes into play - which is where Nietzsche cut in. The first is the worst and the second is the best and the last is the one with the hairest chest. george thompson wrote: Dear List, Those of you who are fighting over this term might well be reminded that the word 'elite' is simply the French equivalent of English 'elected', both deriving from Latin 'eligere' = 'to pick out, to choose, to select, to elect.' I don't know about the rest of you, but as for me the cultural baggage that comes with this word is way too heavy for me. The poet, the artist, as the chosen one? I myself wouldn't want to have anything to do with such a notion. Maybe that's why I have walked away from the religion of the poet. George Thompson, from out of nowhere ------------------------ Sam Truitt PO Box 20058 NYC 10023 --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 03:17:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: where we create: come voyeur and submit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Where We Create Project is up and running. But I need more submissions. So have a look around...drop some comments in, play the voyeur and see where others work and create. the url: http://www.newformsreview.com/wherewecreate/ Then submit your pictures and text to: wherewecreate@gmail.com details (cause I'm too persistant for anyones good) 1. a roughly 300 by 300 pixels or around there photo (S) of where you work, where you create, 2. some text about the place where you work, anything really, but hopefully something descriptive, interesting. 3. your details, name, location, and a few urls. cheers, Jason --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:35:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Peace On A Series: Alan Gilbert | Cathy Park Hong MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Peace On A series presents Alan Gilbert & Cathy Park Hong Friday May 12th, 8PM hosted by Thom Donovan at 166 Avenue A, Apartment #2 New York, NY 10009 Alan Gilbert's poems have appeared in various magazines and journals including The Baffler, Chicago Review, and First Intensity; in the anthology *Free Radicals: American Poets Before Their First Books*; and online at The Poetry Project website. His writings on poetry, art, culture, and politics have appeared in publications such as Artforum, Bomb, The Village Voice, Time Out New York, and the website Jacket. A collection of critical writings entitled *Another Future: Poetry and Art in a Postmodern Twilight* was recently published by Wesleyan University Press. He has a Ph.D. in English literature from the University at Buffalo, and has worked as an art editor for the New York Foundation for the Arts and the College Art Association. He lives in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. Cathy Hong's *Translating Mo'um* was published in 2002. Her second book, *Dance Dance Revolution*, has been chosen for the Barnard New Women's Poetry Series and will be published by WW Norton in 2007. She is the recipient of NEA and NYFA grants, and spent last year in South Korea on a Fulbright Grant. Her poems have appeared in Volt, Denver Quarterly, Chain, American Letters, Commentary, and other journals. Currently, she lives in New York City, splitting time teaching at Eugene Lang college and working as a freelance journalist. Peace On A intends an events series for work by emergent writers, artists, performers and scholars. It opposes intimate occasion to corporatizations of gathering place and assembling alternatives. for inquiries and feedback please write: thom_donovan@yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Janssen Subject: looking for a printer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hello all - I'm putting together a new journal and am looking for a printer to bid on the project. Can anyone recommend a good quality, reasonably priced printer that would b= e willing to bid on a smaller scale project? Many thanks, LJ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 10:19:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: on elitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George and Sam, we needed your doses injected! If ever you get to Philadelphia, you should make sure you make a stop at The Lodge of Theosophy, where Blavatsky set up shop in these parts of the world for a bit. The elders in there are pretty damn close to the biggest shock to the senses you're bound to find when confronted with people who have studied the densest formulas available to us for explaining the mechanics of how energy bends. At Lodge functions where certain books such as Isis Unveiled are discussed, we have a lengthy Q&A surrounding Blavatsky's various methods, theories (although I'm not sure SHE would call them theories so much as Truths, hehe! I can be such a bastard!), and what I call Theosophical Prejudice. The one time I ALMOST stumped them from the back is when we were discussing Blavatsky's "theory" surrounding the "mischief" of the Transcendentalists. She actually refers to them, including Emerson, as childish, as ridiculous, as something to be utterly dismissed. But I pointed out (for some time, which I'll sum up here) Emerson and Whitman encapsulate nearly all of Blavatsky's most urgent messages about Atonement and Universal Bodies of the Ego and how --as you point out Sam-- We are a capital "W" We in Art, because we are creation. Each of us gets TO IT so to speak in the broader sense TO the smaller sense. Or, senses distilled. Or, the miracle of the Transcendentalists that Blavatsky dismissed is the nature of Nature and how in fact We as a capital "W" cannot be dismissed as We look at one another as equal partners in the journey we are taking to experience creating from our created hands. And this is NOT some injected Christian notion so much as it is one that follows a more Buddhist sense, especially Tibetan, where the wisest who partner in understanding the mechanics UNDERSTAND to this day what was lost by the wisest in Europe centuries ago (due to Christian domination and destruction). The mandalas that the Tibetan Buddhists make are not just pretty designs, they are the actual WORKING blueprints of the hidden code of energy AS IT IS BENDING. My own theory here is that the Internet is our way home to that. I know a million people will want to JUMP DOWN MY THROAT for saying this, but, I TRULY BELIEVE that the Internet is the West's way Home to that understanding of hidden code. And furthermore, the Internet is what's driving us together whether we're a thousands miles away or not. But my original point was that Blavatsky-ites need to reconsider the Transcendentalists. Blavatsky was SO CONSUMED with her studies of India that she was willing to block out something which was CLEARLY a parallel study in the rapture of Being Here. "We are all poets at last..." which is really what the original thread on Bukowski was getting to get to. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:30:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: looking for a printer Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 I'd like to see this, too. Let me in on it, as far as bidders and prices go. Christophe Casamassima > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lisa Janssen" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: looking for a printer > Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:07:00 -0500 >=20 >=20 > Hello all - >=20 > I'm putting together a new journal and am looking for a printer to bid on > the project. >=20 > Can anyone recommend a good quality, reasonably priced printer that would= be > willing to bid on a smaller scale project? >=20 > Many thanks, >=20 > LJ > Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 08:03:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: looking for a printer In-Reply-To: <1219cabc0605100707y2f30301cy52f1b3562e34735d@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed You might want to start with the following: McNaughton & Gunn http://www.bookprinters.com/index1.html Bookmobile http://www.bookmobile.com/ David Harrison Horton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:44:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: looking for a printer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would recommend Van Volumes Ltd. In Palmer, MA. It specializes in short-run editions, and provides limited print on demand. Its rates are the lowest I've seen. They've published all of my perfectbound books, so any of you owning copies of them have an idea of Van Volumes' work. You can contact them at 1-800-290-0462 or at www.vanvolumes.com. Ask for Russ Tate and mention my name. Vernon Frazer http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David Harrison Horton Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:04 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: looking for a printer You might want to start with the following: McNaughton & Gunn http://www.bookprinters.com/index1.html Bookmobile http://www.bookmobile.com/ David Harrison Horton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:34:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: on elitism In-Reply-To: <43a.79a056.31935074@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 10 May 2006 at 10:19, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > ... the > wisest who partner in understanding the mechanics UNDERSTAND > to this day what was lost by the wisest in Europe centuries ago > (due to Christian domination and destruction). The mandalas that > the Tibetan Buddhists make are not just pretty designs, they are > the actual WORKING blueprints of the hidden code of energy AS > IT IS BENDING. > My own theory here is that the Internet is our way home to that. > I know a million people will want to JUMP DOWN MY THROAT for > saying this, but, I TRULY BELIEVE that the Internet is the West's > way Home to that understanding of hidden code....<< Well, I suppose we can always hope you really believe this, and that natural selection will inevitably get rid of you, and all those who believe as you do, since none of you can, without profound contradiction to your own beliefs, go to doctors or dentists or do anything that takes advantage of any of the western notions of how the world works, such as use computers or ... oops! Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:45:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Fwd: from sondheim; a book review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:49:47 -0400 (EDT) >From: Alan Sondheim >To: Maria Damon >Subject: Hi - favor > >Subject: My review of Jacques Roubaud which doesn't do it justice > > > >Jacques Roubaud, The form of a city changes faster, alas, than the human >heart, One Hundred-Fifty Poems, 1991-1998, translated by Keith and >Rosmarie Waldrop, 2006. > >Gabe Gudding wrote "Dalkey's looking for reviewers for a new edition of >Jacques Roubaud's work translated by the Waldrops. See below for >information -- and for the contact info at Dalkey in the event you're >interested in reading and reviewing this coolio book. -- Gabe" > >- and if Gabe called it coolio I thought it was and it is and everyone >should read it, absolutely. Roubaud's a member of Oulipo and the book of >course reflects that; either Roubaud or the book or poetic form tour Paris >and the result is a landscape both bucolic and mesmeric; street-names >abound, I'd say, galore, and there are monuments as well as contradiction >among cafes. I generally don't like reading poetry, and Oulipo is odd >since my own interests tend towards the lurid, hysteric, urgency; and the >group is generally anything but; I find the form, based on French or >English or whatever combined with mathesis or other structures, often >getting in the way, although it (the form's)'s fascinating both as ideal >and as hopelessly churning about in the neighborhood, the result of the >random or heuristic characteristics of one or another language. It's like >finding the longest word with only y's for vowels in English, well syzygy, >as if this says something universal. So this goes on, on one hand, and >it's wonderfully playful like Exercises in Style by Queneau, the book >reflects him (Queneau, of course Roubaud, that should go without saying). >The book made me happy; few books do that, except for Buddhist texts, and >this doesn't reflect Buddhist thought but would provide a great accompani- >ment. > >I'd like to say the Waldrops did a good job translating - the book reads >wonderfully in English - my "native tongue" - but this is the only problem >with it, the book, that I find problematic, which I do, that the French >isn't given. I don't think for a second any language is translatable, so >having the so-called original (forget the decon here) with the translation >- yes, I know additional expense etc. - would be literally invaluable. And >more so in this case, since there are puns, phrases constructed from >street names (and sometimes these are translated, and sometimes not, but >who knows whether the original might not have veered into English at these >points?), sonnets... - and I would have been able at the least to sound >these out! And probably more or less read them in the original. > >The section that moved me the most - that is one of the most brilliant >pieces of writing in any language - and I can only reference here of >course the English again (I really don't like this, my native tongue, but >that's another story - look at Tahitian grammar and you'll see why) - >anyway - this is the section entitled Square des Blancs-Manteaux: >Meditation on Death, in Sonnets, According to the Protocol of Joseph >Hall, a series of XVIII poems whose titles are taken from Hall's 1607 The >Art of Divine Meditation. And these poems come closer to death, to the >rasping irregularity and miserable salvation of death, than anything else >I've read, or at least than I can recall reading. But then I recall Donne >and the field's open again. Here's a sample of some lines from one of the >sonnets, " "The Entrance" which of course is the first: > >Death's entrance, as you enter in, dissent, > Decenter Death's dementia and her sense, > From Death's Senses, absent thee and resent >Consenting to Death's constant Constancy. >By Death passed by, repent and be content > When Death is pending, her Lamp and her stamp, > Clamber toward Death, approach and accent her, >Thing yourself Death's indecency and temple. >Death readying to carry you away > Transport Death in amphorae, deport Death >Aggress your Death, baseless and faceless Death >And when in dread of Death, make haste: unlace, > But bow down when Death is discredited >Think how All-wearied Death gives touch, gives bed. > >This is as untypical as any of the sonnets which are as untypical as any >of the other materials in the book. > >Again, take a look at this book which seems it will be released on July >18, 2006, and will cost $13.95 and will be available from Dalkey Archive >Press - www.dalkeyarchive.com - you might want to look at their other >publications as well - it's a totally great press. > >I'll next review sometime soon The Cinema Dreams Its Rivals, Media Fantasy >Films from Radio to the Internet, by Paul Young; I'm still with it. > >- Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: OHMIGAWD!!!!!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [dimeadozenjazzforum] Sun Ra Arrival Day Celebration on WKCR - May 22 & 23 For Immediate Release: May 5, 2006 Contact: Jordan Paul - Director of Publicity, WKCR - jtp2104@columbia.edu / 212.854.9920 Charles Blass - Festival Producer - lovolution@gmail.com / 212.642.8473 Sun Ra Institute and WKCR-FM NYC present 'SUN RADIO OMNIVERSITY' - SUN RA ARRIVAL DAY CELEBRATION 32-HOUR RADIO MARATHON MONDAY, MAY 22nd at midnight to TUESDAY, MAY 23rd, 8:20 AM 89.9 FM NYC & WWW.WKCR.ORG streaming live across the galaxies The Sun Ra Institute and WKCR-FM are proud to announce the Sun Ra Arrival Day Celebration, a 32-hour radio marathon featuring work of the innovative and iconoclastic composer, bandleader, and keyboardist Sun Ra. Each segment of the festival will focus on a specific feature of Ra's musical legacy: Standards and Ballads, The Swing Tradition, Solo Piano and Poetry, Late 1950's and Early Rarities, Tone Science, Singers, and more. The Arrival Day Celebration will include exclusive recordings from WKCR's archives as well as live special guest interviews with Marshall Allen, Director of the Sun Ra Arkestra, and Arkestra members of the past, present and future. Born Herman Poole Blount in Birmingham, Alabama on May 22, 1914, he was nicknamed Sonny from his youth. He later abandoned his birth name and took on the name and persona of Sun Ra ("Ra" being the name of the ancient Egyptian god of the Sun). He did not consider himself "born"; rather, he "arrived" on the planet, entering via Birmingham. From the '50's to the '90's Sun Ra led a large ensemble with a fluid lineup under a variety of names: The Solar Myth Arkestra, The Intergalactic Space Research Arkestra, and many others. Sun Ra departed on Memorial Day - May 30, 1993. Sun Ra's prolific achievements on Planet Earth have been widely acclaimed and recorded in documentaries, books, and a feature film titled "Space is The Place". He founded his record label, El Saturn Records, in the 1950s, and proceeded to unleash nearly 200 fiercely individualistic and extremely diverse albums on an unsuspecting and largely unprepared public. He also recorded for a handful of major labels, and he attained widespread notoriety from his legendary concerts, radio, and television appearances. His interstellar musical, poetic, linguistic, and spiritual explorations are unparalleled in the history of modern music and culture. With The Arkestra, Sun Ra gave astonishing performances around the world for decades. He was always accompanied by stellar musicians in fantastic costumes, and a joyful atmosphere of mischievous space camaraderie was ever present. His music is most often regarded as 'Jazz', though it spans the full spectrum from Swing to Space, with ballads, show tunes, hard- and post-bop, exoticism, funk, energy music, and electronic hyperdrive. WKCR SUN RA ARRIVAL DAY CELEBRATION: PRELIMINARY SCHEDULE May 22nd, 2006 - 89.9 FM NYC & WWW.WKCR.ORG 12-5 AM Sun Ra Potpourri The broadcast will begin with a variety of great Sun Ra sounds to warm up this event. 5-8 AM Sun Ra Plays Standards and Ballads The Daybreak Express show will feature Sun Ra's performances of standards, ballads, and show tunes. 8-9:30 AM The Swing Tradition The Bird Flight slot will be an extension of the previous show, but this time focusing on the compositions of Jelly Roll Morton, Duke Ellington, Fletcher Henderson, and others. Little known facts: Fletcher himself once gave up his own piano chair to Sun Ra. Sun Ra wrote charts that Coleman Hawkins had difficulty playing. Monk was impressed, too. 9:30 AM-Noon Solo Piano and Poetry Our morning Classical show will present Sun Ra's solo piano recordings, including an exclusive performance at WKCR in July 1977. This segment will also incorporate Sun Ra's extensive poetic works. Noon-5PM Omniversity: Late 1950's and Early Rarities Phil Schaap will shine the spotlight on Sun Ra's elemental work from the later 1950's. Following this segment, we will shift into a survey of the very earliest recordings of Sun Ra, arranging for singers and performing as a sideman. Phil will be joined by a panel of scholars and band members, presenting the rarest of Sun Ra sides. 5-8 PM Tone Science The synthesizer and abstract works of Sun Ra. Tune in for some of the most adventurous recordings of Sun Ra's career. This segment will include both solo synthesizer performances as well as those with an ensemble. 8 PM-1 AM From the Ark The evening segment is expected to be the highlight of the marathon. We will play live recordings and interviews, with visits from special guests and a focus on materials from WKCR's own "Arkives", as well as a collection gathered by The Sun Ra Institute. We will take some time to honor the current living-and-breathing Sun Ra Arkestra, under the masterful direction of Marshall Allen, and celebrate Marshall's 82nd birthday a few days early. Stay tuned for extra features in the works, including remote broadcast from the Sun Ra House in Philadelphia. 1-2 AM The Singers This hour will give a closer look at Sun Ra's work with vocalists, including his R&B and Doo-wop efforts. 2-5 AM Overnight Sun Ra 5-8:20 AM Daybreak Sun Ra Sun Ra will again be the focus of Transfigured Night and Daybreak Express. Here is another chance Travel the Spaceways with Sun Ra and The Arkestra. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 10:12:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: from sondheim; a book review In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I think Alan Sondheim's review of Jacques Roubaud's, The form of a city changes faster, alas, than the human heart, One Hundred-Fifty Poems, 1991-1998, translated by Keith and Rosmarie Waldrop, 2006 - gets close to 'justice'. I think it is terrific. I would not sweat the Oulipo associations - some work beautiful, some I find tedious. What is most important to me, what comes through is the book's deep and fresh embrace of Paris - historical and present. The forms and language fight and/or reject the obvious - sentimental, familiar, et al. What emerges is a hard edge lyricism (not without "sentiment"). The forms freshen the angle and make things come up undressed and new. I won't go on. I want to write a 'real' review of this book. It should alter the way we look at and explore cities. It is a major work that encourages rather than dominates. I don't think Dalkey Archive will have it in the stands 'formally' until July 18. Hold on to your summer!! Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. >> >> Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:49:47 -0400 (EDT) >> From: Alan Sondheim >> To: Maria Damon >> Subject: Hi - favor >> >> Subject: My review of Jacques Roubaud which doesn't do it justice >> >> >> >> Jacques Roubaud, The form of a city changes faster, alas, than the human >> heart, One Hundred-Fifty Poems, 1991-1998, translated by Keith and >> Rosmarie Waldrop, 2006. >> >> Gabe Gudding wrote "Dalkey's looking for reviewers for a new edition of >> Jacques Roubaud's work translated by the Waldrops. See below for >> information -- and for the contact info at Dalkey in the event you're >> interested in reading and reviewing this coolio book. -- Gabe" >> >> - and if Gabe called it coolio I thought it was and it is and everyone >> should read it, absolutely. Roubaud's a member of Oulipo and the book of >> course reflects that; either Roubaud or the book or poetic form tour Paris >> and the result is a landscape both bucolic and mesmeric; street-names >> abound, I'd say, galore, and there are monuments as well as contradiction >> among cafes. I generally don't like reading poetry, and Oulipo is odd >> since my own interests tend towards the lurid, hysteric, urgency; and the >> group is generally anything but; I find the form, based on French or >> English or whatever combined with mathesis or other structures, often >> getting in the way, although it (the form's)'s fascinating both as ideal >> and as hopelessly churning about in the neighborhood, the result of the >> random or heuristic characteristics of one or another language. It's like >> finding the longest word with only y's for vowels in English, well syzygy, >> as if this says something universal. So this goes on, on one hand, and >> it's wonderfully playful like Exercises in Style by Queneau, the book >> reflects him (Queneau, of course Roubaud, that should go without saying). >> The book made me happy; few books do that, except for Buddhist texts, and >> this doesn't reflect Buddhist thought but would provide a great accompani- >> ment. >> >> I'd like to say the Waldrops did a good job translating - the book reads >> wonderfully in English - my "native tongue" - but this is the only problem >> with it, the book, that I find problematic, which I do, that the French >> isn't given. I don't think for a second any language is translatable, so >> having the so-called original (forget the decon here) with the translation >> - yes, I know additional expense etc. - would be literally invaluable. And >> more so in this case, since there are puns, phrases constructed from >> street names (and sometimes these are translated, and sometimes not, but >> who knows whether the original might not have veered into English at these >> points?), sonnets... - and I would have been able at the least to sound >> these out! And probably more or less read them in the original. >> >> The section that moved me the most - that is one of the most brilliant >> pieces of writing in any language - and I can only reference here of >> course the English again (I really don't like this, my native tongue, but >> that's another story - look at Tahitian grammar and you'll see why) - >> anyway - this is the section entitled Square des Blancs-Manteaux: >> Meditation on Death, in Sonnets, According to the Protocol of Joseph >> Hall, a series of XVIII poems whose titles are taken from Hall's 1607 The >> Art of Divine Meditation. And these poems come closer to death, to the >> rasping irregularity and miserable salvation of death, than anything else >> I've read, or at least than I can recall reading. But then I recall Donne >> and the field's open again. Here's a sample of some lines from one of the >> sonnets, " "The Entrance" which of course is the first: >> >> Death's entrance, as you enter in, dissent, >> Decenter Death's dementia and her sense, >> From Death's Senses, absent thee and resent >> Consenting to Death's constant Constancy. >> By Death passed by, repent and be content >> When Death is pending, her Lamp and her stamp, >> Clamber toward Death, approach and accent her, >> Thing yourself Death's indecency and temple. >> Death readying to carry you away >> Transport Death in amphorae, deport Death >> Aggress your Death, baseless and faceless Death >> And when in dread of Death, make haste: unlace, >> But bow down when Death is discredited >> Think how All-wearied Death gives touch, gives bed. >> >> This is as untypical as any of the sonnets which are as untypical as any >> of the other materials in the book. >> >> Again, take a look at this book which seems it will be released on July >> 18, 2006, and will cost $13.95 and will be available from Dalkey Archive >> Press - www.dalkeyarchive.com - you might want to look at their other >> publications as well - it's a totally great press. >> >> I'll next review sometime soon The Cinema Dreams Its Rivals, Media Fantasy >> Films from Radio to the Internet, by Paul Young; I'm still with it. >> >> - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 15:02:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: looking for distributors Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On the heels of the list of printers coming through here (and don't forget thomson-shore and edwards brothers in michigan, though they are more expensive), I'm wondering if we might collectively generate a list of distributors people know about our use (whether as library or bookstore buyers, or as publishers, etc.) Though committed to independent distributors such as SPD, with the upcoming publication of "We Know You Are Watching" -- a 450 page collection detailing the writings and exploits of the Surveillance Camera Players (see notbored.org for more information) -- it seems like we might have a need for more outlets for our books. Any ideas? Thanks, Joel Kuszai Factory School, lpc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: looking for distributors In-Reply-To: <314c4b70a80b3eb1eb6d1c013189a809@factoryschool.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joel I don't have any ideas about distribution. Now that we can pretty much publish our own books with professional producing values, the biggest problems seems to be getting them into bookstores or available to readers. I have distribution with Baker & Taylor---as policy, SPD doesn't handle self-publishers---which makes my work available through a lot of online sellers. But it doesn't get my work into places where people can see and handle it and maybe even buy it. I'd like to hear any ideas anyone has about improving distribution for our work. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of J Kuszai Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 3:02 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: looking for distributors On the heels of the list of printers coming through here (and don't forget thomson-shore and edwards brothers in michigan, though they are more expensive), I'm wondering if we might collectively generate a list of distributors people know about our use (whether as library or bookstore buyers, or as publishers, etc.) Though committed to independent distributors such as SPD, with the upcoming publication of "We Know You Are Watching" -- a 450 page collection detailing the writings and exploits of the Surveillance Camera Players (see notbored.org for more information) -- it seems like we might have a need for more outlets for our books. Any ideas? Thanks, Joel Kuszai Factory School, lpc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:46:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: was RE: looking for distributors In-Reply-To: <314c4b70a80b3eb1eb6d1c013189a809@factoryschool.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if I have a .pdf of something close to the galley stage, I make about = 100 copies and circulate them as "electronic galleys" to places that review, = to book festivals, etc. that would ordinarily expect a book, to some = contests, competitions, etc., to reading series that now expect books (from this I = get about five reviews or readings), to friends and people I see;=20 send more to various poets, reviewers, e-zines I know online (this = because they are more likely to review or excerpt and link back to electronic = format stuff than old fashioned paper people); I had a second book with galleys and copies distributed improperly and = made "pirate" paper galleys; most publishers expect authors to distribute postcards to other authors, friends, and people in general in places surrounding readings; big publishers, like those owned by the Carlysle Group that the Washington = Post reviews almost exclusively, pay for the postcards themselves I'm currently trying to make press releases, order forms, and "sell = sheets" for my books that don't have them, for mailings, like Iowa, etc. does I'm just trying to say that 1) consider cost of galleys and postcards when designing the cover and choosing the printer, because it can add up 2) share your gifs and layouts and templates with your authors 3) you might want to participate in the "electronic galleys" movement so that this becomes more acceptable (it costs about $2 for galleys, and = about $1.50 to mail them, versus being free to $1 to produce and mail a .pdf = on a CD Rom) 4) publishers might help authors so that both can spend time and money = doing things that sell the book instead of doing basic chores as for distributors, you might want to check Gardners for Europe and = inbooks for Australia All best, Catherine Daly cadaly@comcast.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:28:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: was RE: looking for distributors In-Reply-To: <003101c6747b$23ec3580$6701a8c0@KASIA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Catherine this is really good information. Thank you. I wonder if you have a standard list of these places where you circulate "electronic galleys" that might be shared -- or if it's specific to you, or to specific books? Charles At 02:46 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote: >if I have a .pdf of something close to the galley stage, I make about 100 >copies and circulate them as "electronic galleys" to places that review, to >book festivals, etc. that would ordinarily expect a book, to some contests, >competitions, etc., to reading series that now expect books (from this I get >about five reviews or readings), to friends and people I see; > >send more to various poets, reviewers, e-zines I know online (this because >they are more likely to review or excerpt and link back to electronic format >stuff than old fashioned paper people); > >I had a second book with galleys and copies distributed improperly and made >"pirate" paper galleys; > >most publishers expect authors to distribute postcards to other authors, >friends, and people in general in places surrounding readings; big >publishers, like those owned by the Carlysle Group that the Washington Post >reviews almost exclusively, pay for the postcards themselves > >I'm currently trying to make press releases, order forms, and "sell sheets" >for my books that don't have them, for mailings, like Iowa, etc. does > >I'm just trying to say that > >1) consider cost of galleys and postcards when designing the cover and >choosing the printer, because it can add up > >2) share your gifs and layouts and templates with your authors > >3) you might want to participate in the "electronic galleys" movement so >that this becomes more acceptable (it costs about $2 for galleys, and about >$1.50 to mail them, versus being free to $1 to produce and mail a .pdf on a >CD Rom) > >4) publishers might help authors so that both can spend time and money doing >things that sell the book instead of doing basic chores > >as for distributors, you might want to check Gardners for Europe and inbooks >for Australia > >All best, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@comcast.net charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:45:25 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: email contacts please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Poetics listees, If anyone has current email addresses for Alice Notley Jennifer Moxley Ron Padgett Could you backchannel them to please ? P.Brown@yahoo.com Thanks very much, Pam _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Personals: It's free to check out our great singles! http://au.personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:04:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060504184418.6445414861@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I must be a bit jet lagged from all my travel. But I don't see the question-begging here. gb On 4-May-06, at 11:44 AM, furniture_ press wrote: > Oh, Chris! Tell it like it is! > > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an elitist > prank on Literature. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chris Stroffolino" >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski >> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 >> >> >> And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a >> refrigerator >> magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote >> >> "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must >> lead." >> Charles Bukowski >> >> Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy Time >> Tea >> >> >> ---------- >>> From: Craig Allen Conrad >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology >>> /\\///\\\\///// - >> + - >>> Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM >>> >> >>> Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, >>> and they get sick of hearing about class. >>> >>> But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a >>> couple >>> of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who came >>> to poetry through Bukowski. >>> >>> He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much his >>> poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not pleasant, >>> but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. >>> >>> What I remember most are the people I have met who have come >>> to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew >>> in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, his >>> father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in front >>> of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe he >>> just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by >>> the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way >>> of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. >>> >>> Bukowski is a door thrown open! >>> >>> Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. >>> Conrad >>> CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, >>> 2006) >>> for poem samples from the book go to: >>> _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>> "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to >>> be >>> restrained...." >>> --William Blake >>> for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>> for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > >> > > > > Christophe Casamassima > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > -- > ___________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > Powered By Outblaze > > George Bowering, D. Litt. Trying to improve in all ways. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:26:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060506152118.5450.qmail@web60018.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 6-May-06, at 8:21 AM, Mark Wallace wrote: > Uh, gentlemen? Isn't the primary objection to Bukowski > related to his representation of women? Not in my opinion. The primary one for me is that he just blurts ignorant and easy stuff about beer and horseraces and shit. Geo. Harry Bowering One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 19:48:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Friday ::: Moschovakis & Squillante ::: Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Burning Chair Readings invite you to BE DEAR TO YOUR EARS Friday, May 12th, 7:30PM Anna Moschovakis & Sheila Squillante @ The Fall Café 307 Smith Street btwn. President & Union Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn F/G to Carroll Street Contact: matt@typomag.com 917.478.5682 Anna in Octopus #7: http://www.octopusmagazine.com/issue07/html/main.html Sheila in Typo #5: http://typomag.com/issue05/squillante.html Anna Moschovakis is the author of two chapbooks, The Blue Book and Dependence Day Parade, and of a full-length collection, I Have Not Been Able to Get Through to Everyone, forthcoming in the fall from Turtle Point Press. She is also a freelance editor, translator, book designer, and printer, and an active member of the Brooklyn-based publishing collective, Ugly Duckling Presse. She currently teaches in the Comparative Literature department of Queens College. Sheila Squillante is a poet, essayist and avowed foodie. Her poems have appeared or are about to appear in such places as Quarterly West, Prairie Schooner, Clackamas Literary Review, The Southeast Review, Phoebe, Unpleasant Event Schedule, and, notably, in Typo #5. In summer of 2004, she spent a month in residence at the MacDowell Colony where she wrote the poems that appeared in TYPO 5, as well as several chapters of a memoir-in-progress about food and family. She lives in central Pennsylvania with her husband and son and three recalcitrant cats. She wants people to know that her mother-in-law really enjoys the word “carcass,” and that the meat nearest the eye is the tenderest part. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:11:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's a little thought that came to me. What do Bukowski and Billy Collins have in common? Each has a body of work that reflects his individual sensibility and lifestyle. Each has broad appeal. Neither has individual poems that stand out. They are so different from poets who have major highs and lows in their poetic output. Think of Ginsberg's best as well as his worst, Ferlinghetti. . . Buk and BC aren't that way. Just about everything they do is somewhere around pretty good--some better than and some less than. But the highs aren't there. The great individual poems that we associate with poets. I could be wrong. discuss. Charlie Rossiter -- The truth is such a rare thing it is delightful to tell it Emily Dickinson www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by the poets who wrote them ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 00:22:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <3140.68.78.104.165.1147320675.squirrel@www.poetrypoetry.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charlie Rossiter wrote: >Here's a little thought that came to me. > >What do Bukowski and Billy Collins have in common? > >Each has a > - penis. - ordinary-guy persona (albeit different kinds of ordinary guy), each attempting to be a unitary voice for heterosexual males of his social class. - relatively homogeneous body of work, unlike, say, Ashbery. - total lack of interest in formal or linguistic innovation. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 00:38:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lee Ann Brown Subject: PLAYS on WORDS: Poets Theater Festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please come to first annual PLAYS ON WORDS: A POETS THEATER FESTIVAL=20 curated by lee ann brown + corina copp + tony torn=20 saint mark's church=20 may 11th-15th 2006=20 2nd ave + 10th street nyc=20 all shows 7pm @ the ontological theater=20 unless otherwise noted=20 http://www.ontological.com/ FEATURING THEATER ARTISTS ACTORS AND DIRECTORS INCLUDING:=20 lee ann brown + mallory catlett + anthony cerrato + brendan connelly + = dominic d ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 21:40:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit eyebrows ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gwyn McVay" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? > Charlie Rossiter wrote: > >>Here's a little thought that came to me. >> >>What do Bukowski and Billy Collins have in common? >> >>Each has a > - penis. > > - ordinary-guy persona (albeit different kinds of ordinary guy), each > attempting to be a unitary voice for heterosexual males of his social > class. > > - relatively homogeneous body of work, unlike, say, Ashbery. > > - total lack of interest in formal or linguistic innovation. > > > Gwyn McVay > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:11:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <4462BBF7.3090001@patriot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have to agree wit Gwyn. I fail to see what's so wonderful about Bukowski. Sure, he offends easily offended folks entrenched in their middle-class, bourgeois values, but for those who are already questioning those values, his work seems a bit one note, and he's relatively uninterested in language play. Writing that you pity people who have "never gone crazy" isn't that interesting--or provocative. To me Gabe Gudding is much more offensive and provocative. And smart. Or, for that matter, just about any childhood playground rhyme: Abraham Lincoln Was a good old soul. He washed his face In a toilet bowl. He jumped out the window With his dick in his hand, And said, “’Scuse me, ladies! I’m superman.” Or I fucked your mama Till she went blind. Her breath is bad But she sure can grind. Or I hate to talk about your mama; She’s a good old soul. She’s got a ten-ton pussy And a rubber ass-hole. I'd take any of these over Bukowski's beer shit. Best, Joseph --- Gwyn McVay wrote: > Charlie Rossiter wrote: > > >Here's a little thought that came to me. > > > >What do Bukowski and Billy Collins have in common? > > > >Each has a > > > - penis. > > - ordinary-guy persona (albeit different kinds of > ordinary guy), each > attempting to be a unitary voice for heterosexual > males of his social class. > > - relatively homogeneous body of work, unlike, say, > Ashbery. > > - total lack of interest in formal or linguistic > innovation. > > > Gwyn McVay > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:28:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: looking for a printer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lulu: http://www.lulu.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:48:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: looking for distributors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, there has been some local (to LA & the US in general) collectively = generated thought re. forming a net-based distribution = collective/cooperative because, while SPD is excellent in many ways, = there is clearly a need for more plasticity (of thought at least) around = how small press publishers might get their books into the hands of the = people and at less cost to individual publishers and through a wider way = of thinking 'channels' to people. Some have been discussing a web-based forum whereby individual = publishers might offer all our wares via one website (where each press = might pay a _very_ nominal annual fee, just for setting up the site, = getting the word out, etc.) & have their own page or something on the = 'mother' site--duration press provides a kind of nascent model for how = this might potentially be configured or imagined-- & fill orders = independently, thus circumventing the not insubstantial cut taken by = most distributors and, in the worst case scenario--with some of the = 'bigger' dist. houses: I.e. Ingraham, etc. holding stock and eventual = chucking or pulping of unsold inventory like some 'books as hostage' -- = indiv. presses would fill their own orders and mail them to consumers, = etc., keep bigger chunk of sales and effectively dismantle any need for = real-time infrastructures like warehouse space with potentially high = rent which then gets passed on to publishers and consumers, etc. But this is something the imagined collective 'we' would have to invent. = Which hasn't happened yet though has been discussed at length in various = places and among various folks.=20 I think it is abundantly obvious that the 'we' of it all needs/must = reconfigure and adapt to changing .. whatevers. marketplace outlets? I = am not sure bookstores as what we are used to thinking of them -as- are = the way to go with this- as many indies keep shutting down all around = us. hello Ithaca Bookery, etc.=20 My 2 cents. and forgive if I'm being redundant. been off list long time = now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 04:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Advertise in Boog City 34** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The upcoming Boog City, issue 34, is going to press Thurs. June 1, and our indie discount ad rate is here to stay. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles, your band's new album, your label's new releases. 2,000 issues are distributed throughout Manhattan's East Village and Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Email as soon as possible to reserve ad space--preferably by Thurs. May 18--and ads need to be in by Thurs. May 25 . (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 06:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski In-Reply-To: <84D6D537-E092-11DA-96F3-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On 4-May-06, at 11:44 AM, furniture_ press wrote: > > But this begs the question: is there a "working class language? > > poetry?" I think once we get down to the kernel of it - that is, > > language - and it's place in the world (how it's spoken, what's > > spoken) then only can we see literariness (ornament) as an elitist > > prank on Literature. On 10 May 2006 at 19:04, George Bowering wrote: > I must be a bit jet lagged from all my travel. > But I don't see the question-begging here. That's because in this, as in so much else, the people who believe that literariness is ornament are simply ignorant of much of what they criticize in Western culture. It's a simple, but telling, mis-use of the phrase "begs the question" to mean "raises the question". On 6-May-06, at 8:21 AM, Mark Wallace wrote: > Uh, gentlemen? Isn't the primary objection to Bukowski > related to his representation of women? George Bowering wrote: > Not in my opinion. > The primary one for me is that he just blurts ignorant and easy > stuff about beer and horseraces and shit. Just so. Marcus > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Chris Stroffolino" > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: CA Conrad on Bukowski > >> Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:44:37 -0700 > >> > >> > >> And even a not so very working class friend once sent me a > >> refrigerator > >> magnet, with Bukowski's picture on it, and a quote > >> > >> "Some People Never Go Crazy. What truly horrible lives they must > >> lead." > >> Charles Bukowski > >> > >> Don't think you're gonna get that from Billy Collins. or Sleepy > Time > >> Tea > >> > >> > >> ---------- > >>> From: Craig Allen Conrad > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: on the OXFORD BOOK OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology > >>> /\\///\\\\///// - > >> + - > >>> Date: Thu, May 4, 2006, 6:44 AM > >>> > >> > >>> Yes Kevin, I know people get sick of hearing about Bukowski, > >>> and they get sick of hearing about class. > >>> > >>> But let me tell you that I've met a LOT of working class men (a > >>> couple > >>> of women, all of whom are working class lesbians I know) who > came > >>> to poetry through Bukowski. > >>> > >>> He's not someone I've read in years, but I remember how much > his > >>> poems spoke to me, about my life, my family. No, not > pleasant, > >>> but beautiful in the drive WITH it under the arm. > >>> > >>> What I remember most are the people I have met who have come > >>> to poetry BECAUSE of Bukowski. There was this poet I knew > >>> in Pittsburgh back in the early 90s who worked in a factory, > his > >>> father before him at the steel plant, and he would get up in > front > >>> of his friends at this bar, read his poems, and cry. Or maybe > he > >>> just cried that one time, when I was there? And he LOVED by > >>> the way, the poems of Mina Loy. He came to Mina Loy by way > >>> of Bukowski because of coming to poetry in the first place. > >>> > >>> Bukowski is a door thrown open! > >>> > >>> Poetry is for everyone, and Bukowski demands that to be true. > >>> Conrad > >>> CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, > >>> 2006) > >>> for poem samples from the book go to: > >>> _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > >>> (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > >>> "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough > to > >>> be > >>> restrained...." > >>> --William Blake > >>> for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > >>> (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > >>> for CAConrad's tarot services:_ > http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > >>> (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > > > >> > > > > > > > > Christophe Casamassima > > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > > > > -- > > ___________________________________________ > > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > > > > Powered By Outblaze > > > > > George Bowering, D. Litt. > Trying to improve in all ways. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: 8 by K.S. Ernst Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The minimalist concrete poetry site at: http://www.logolalia.com/minimalistconcretepoetry/ has been updated with 8 pieces by K.S. Ernst. If you require work to fit discretely within the confines of a single term, you're going to need to be familiar with the term "yes". Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:38:24 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin Subject: LAST CALL. Festival 2006 :: [EN] Call for Entries :: [FR] Appel a' proposition :: [DE] Teilnahmeaufruf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit EN FRANÇAIS PLUS BAS DANS LE MESSAGE AUF DEUTSCH UNTEN ========================================= IN ENGLISH ========================================= CALL FOR ENTRIES. LAST DEADLINE: MAY 15th, 2006 (postmarked) ||||| FESTIVAL #11 #12 ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES PARIS/BERLIN ||||| FILM / VIDEO / MULTIMEDIA ||||| http://art-action.org/en_info.htm *** Please forward this information as widely as possible *** The Call for entries 2006 is open until May 15th (postmarked). In Autumn 2006, the festival 'Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin' will present in Paris and Berlin an international programming focusing on film, video and multimedia, gathering works of artists and directors acknowledged on the international scene along with young artists and not much distributed directors. The festival aims at presenting those works to a broad audience, at creating circulations between different art practices and between different audiences, as well as creating new exchanges between artists, directors and professionals. ALL INDIVIDUALS OR ORGANIZATIONS CAN SUBMIT ONE OR SEVERAL PROPOSALS. THE CALL FOR ENTRIES IS OPEN TO FILM, VIDEO AND MULTIMEDIA CYCLES, without any restriction of length or genre. All submissions are free, without any limitation of geographic origin. FILM AND VIDEO: * Video art / Experimental video * Experimental film * Documentary * Fiction MULTIMEDIA: * Installation * Net art, CDrom, DVDrom * Performance art, concert, sound work ALL submissions are sent by mail, enclosed with a filled-in ONLINE ENTRY FORM, UNTIL MAY 15th, 2006 (postmarked). Entry forms and information regarding the 'Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin' are available on our website http://art-action.org/en_info.htm The 'Rencontres internationales' offer more than a simple presentation of the works. They introduce an intercultural forum gathering various guests from all over the world - artists and directors recognized on the international scene along with young artists and directors who still cannot enjoy a substantial distribution, directors from organizations and emerging structures - testifying of the vivacity of creation and its diffusion, but also of the artistic and cultural contexts that often are in transition or sometimes experiencing deep changes. The festival reflects specificities and crossings of contemporary art practices, and work out this necessary time when points of view meet and are exchanged. ========================================= EN FRANÇAIS ========================================= APPEL A PROPOSITION. DERNIERE DATE LIMITE: 15 MAI 2006 (date d'envoi) ||||| FESTIVAL #11 #12 ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES PARIS/BERLIN ||||| FILM / VIDEO / MULTIMEDIA ||||| http://art-action.org/fr_info.htm *** Merci de faire circuler cette information le plus largement possible *** L'appel à proposition 2006 est ouvert jusqu'au 15 mai (date d'envoi). Les Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin présenteront à Paris et Berlin à l'automne 2006 une programmation internationale inédite consacrée aux nouveaux cinémas, à la création vidéo et au multimédia, réunissant des œuvres d'artistes et de réalisateurs reconnus sur la scène internationale aux côtés de jeunes artistes et de réalisateurs peu diffusés. Les Rencontres internationales ont pour vocation de faire découvrir ces œuvres à un large public, de créer des circulations entre différentes pratiques artistiques et entre différents publics, de susciter des échanges entre artistes, réalisateurs et acteurs de la vie artistique et culturelle. TOUT INDIVIDU OU ORGANISME PEUT EFFECTUER UNE OU PLUSIEURS PROPOSITIONS D'OEUVRE. L'APPEL A PROPOSITION EST OUVERT POUR LES CYCLES FILM, VIDEO ET MULTIMEDIA, sans restriction de genre et de durée. Les propositions sont gratuites, sans limitation de provenance géographique. FILMS ET VIDEOS : * Art vidéo / Vidéo expérimentale * film expérimental * Documentaire * Fiction MULTIMEDIAS : * Installation * Net art, CD-rom, DVDrom * Performance, concert... TOUTES les propositions sont reçues, par courrier, accompagnées d'une FICHE DE PROPOSITION remplie, JUSQU'AU 15 MAI 2006 (date d'envoi). La fiche de proposition, ainsi que toutes les informations relatives aux Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin sont disponibles sur notre site web http://art-action.org/fr_info.htm Plus qu'une simple présentation des œuvres, les Rencontres internationales proposent un véritable forum interculturel, en présence de nombreux invités venus du monde entier, artistes et réalisateurs reconnus sur la scène internationale aux côtés de jeunes artistes et de réalisateurs peu diffusés, de responsables d'institutions et de structures émergentes témoignant d'une vivacité de la création et de sa diffusion, de contextes artistiques et culturels souvent en transformation ou parfois connaissant de profondes mutations. Les Rencontres internationales rendent compte des spécificités et des convergences des pratiques artistiques, et permettent ce temps nécessaire où les points de vue se croisent et s'échangent. ========================================= AUF DEUTSCH ========================================= TEILNAHMEAUFRUF. LETZTER EINSENDESCHLUSS: 15. MAI 2006 (Datum des Poststempels) ||||| FESTIVAL #11 #12 ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES PARIS/BERLIN ||||| FILM / VIDEO / MULTIMEDIA ||||| http://art-action.org/de_info.htm *** Bitte diese Informationen weiterleiten *** Der Teilnahmeaufruf läuft noch bis zum 15. Mai 2006 (Datum des Poststempels). Das Festival 'Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin' stellt im Herbst 2006 in Paris und Berlin ein internationales Programm vor, das sich vor allem den Bereichen Film, Video und Multimedia widmet, und sich aus Werken von international anerkannten Künstlern und Filmschaffenden, sowie aus Beiträgen weniger bekannter Künstler zusammensetzt. Das Anliegen der 'Rencontres internationales' ist es, diese Werke einem breiten Publikum zugänglich zu machen, die verschiedenen Schaffensbereiche einander näherzubringen und den Austausch zwischen Künstlern, Regisseuren und Persönlichkeiten aus der kulturellen und künstlerischen Szene zu fördern. Als JEDE PERSON, EINRICHTUNG ODER GESELLSCHAFT KANN SICH MIT EINEM ODER MEHREREN WERK(EN) BEWERBEN. DER TEILNAHMEAUFRUF BETRIFFT DIE KATEGORIEN FILM, VIDEO UND MULTIMEDIA, ohne Einschränkungen in Hinblick auf Genre oder Dauer. Die Bewerbung ist kostenlos und es gibt keine Beschränkungen hinsichtlich des Entstehungslandes. FILM UND VIDEO: * Experimentalfilm * Videokunst/ experimentelles Video * Dokumentarfilm * Fiktion MULTIMEDIA: * Installationen * Net Art, CD-Rom, DVD-Rom * Performances, Konzert... Bis ZUM 15. MAI 2006 (Datum des Poststempels) nehmen wir ALLE Bewerbungen zusammen mit einem ausgefüllten BEWERBUNGSFORMULAR auf dem Postweg entgegen. Das Bewerbungsformular, sowie sämtliche Informationen zu den 'Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin' finden Sie auf unserer Website : http://art-action.org/de_info.htm Die Rencontres internationales sind mehr als nur eine einfache Ausstellung. Jede Ausgabe ist gleichzeitig ein interkulturelles Forum mit zahlreichen Gästen aus der ganzen Welt. International anerkannte Künstler und Filmemacher neben jungen, aufstrebenden Kollegen, Leiter bedeutender Kunsteinrichtungen neben Betreibern alternativer Strukturen zeugen von der Lebendigkeit des Schaffens und seiner Verbreitung, von der Situation der künstlerischen Praxis in den jeweiligen Ländern, von denen sich manche in einer Übergangsphase befinden oder tiefgreifende Veränderungen erleben. Die Rencontres internationales zeigen die Besonderheiten und Konvergenzen der verschiedenen künstlerischen Praktiken auf und schaffen den notwendigen Zeit-Raum, in dem Sichtweisen aufeinandertreffen und ausgetauscht werden können. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:05:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <3140.68.78.104.165.1147320675.squirrel@www.poetrypoetry.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On May 11, 2006, at 12:11 AM, Charlie Rossiter wrote: > Here's a little thought that came to me. > > What do Bukowski and Billy Collins have in common? > > Each has a body of work that reflects his individual sensibility and > lifestyle. Each has broad appeal. > > Neither has individual poems that stand out. > That's right Charlie, I mentioned somewhere recently (here?) that I came across poems by =20 Collins I has rejected (but forgot to mail back) that he had =20 submitted to my magazine SIXPACK in 1974. Those poems are essentially =20= indistinguishable from any other poems I've seen that he has written =20= since. I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through the =20= Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume =97 say 100 pages =97 of =20 excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come from =20= early in his career, and some from late in his life. Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Blasphemy is a victimless crime." -- a t-shirt sent to Salman Rushdie in the days of the Satanic Verses fatwa. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 85 Euro cell: 011 33 6 79 368 446 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:09:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <34E91EA8-69B4-4A51-8B49-413136691701@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I am not a fan of either to compare Bukowski with Collins is kind of like comparing a bloody cheeseburger with A cucumber sandwich. At least one is satisfying and has some flavor the other is a cucumber sandwich--- -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Pierre Joris Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:05 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? On May 11, 2006, at 12:11 AM, Charlie Rossiter wrote: > Here's a little thought that came to me. > > What do Bukowski and Billy Collins have in common? > > Each has a body of work that reflects his individual sensibility and > lifestyle. Each has broad appeal. > > Neither has individual poems that stand out. > That's right Charlie, I mentioned somewhere recently (here?) that I came across poems by Collins I has rejected (but forgot to mail back) that he had submitted to my magazine SIXPACK in 1974. Those poems are essentially indistinguishable from any other poems I've seen that he has written since. I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through the Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume - say 100 pages - of excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come from early in his career, and some from late in his life. Pierre ============================================== "Blasphemy is a victimless crime." -- a t-shirt sent to Salman Rushdie in the days of the Satanic Verses fatwa. ============================================== Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 85 Euro cell: 011 33 6 79 368 446 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ========================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:13:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A mostly empty bottle of whisky with backwash compared to a half- drank bottle of pepsi gone flat. On May 11, 2006, at 8:09 AM, Haas Bianchi wrote: > While I am not a fan of either to compare Bukowski with Collins is > kind of > like comparing a bloody cheeseburger with > A cucumber sandwich. At least one is satisfying and has some flavor > the > other is a cucumber sandwich--- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:21:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <3C3BCE89-6271-46D1-9E9F-32E23B9E186B@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mIEKAL aND wrote: > A mostly empty bottle of whisky with backwash compared to a half-drank > bottle of pepsi gone flat. I was going to suggest that they are both dead, except that is unfair to Bukowski. ken -- --------------------- Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com I wouldn't want to have lived without having offended someone.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 06:22:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <3C3BCE89-6271-46D1-9E9F-32E23B9E186B@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sure, they both have wide appeal, sell a lot of books, & write "personal" poetry. What Buk has that Billy doesn't is RISK, the ineffable "something-at-stake". Buk's best poems have a "do or die" fire that BC can't touch. Buk is whiskey, BC is toothpaste, not even Crest-- certainly not "Close-Up". mIEKAL aND wrote: A mostly empty bottle of whisky with backwash compared to a half- drank bottle of pepsi gone flat. On May 11, 2006, at 8:09 AM, Haas Bianchi wrote: > While I am not a fan of either to compare Bukowski with Collins is > kind of > like comparing a bloody cheeseburger with > A cucumber sandwich. At least one is satisfying and has some flavor > the > other is a cucumber sandwich--- --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:57:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: looking for distributors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine and Jane Thank you for posting. Catherine, your suggestion of sending galleys as PDF files is a great one. I send out a lot of books that don't get reviewed and PDF copies would leave me---or one of my other publishers, possibly--- more books to sell or the option of ordering a smaller print run. Jane, I'd like to hear more about the plans for electronic distribution that are taking place. Some of my friends are talking about a similar approach. Any ideas we can consider would be very welcome. Thanks and Best, Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Megumi and the White Car Comments: To: netbehaviour , Leiws LaCook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That white car has been sitting there for quite some time. Swinging a sledge hammer over my head, the bright chock of weight splitting stone poofs up from the front porch. I went back to Ohio. That day we left cinderblock rubble in front of the house; they say the English have bad teeth. Is any of this true? You'd hate to leave it just lying there. Eating must be very hard for them, all that porous stone in riptide angles. That white car just sitting there for quite some time is our neighbors; I can see it from this window, but that means I'm denied it's use. When Caleb apologizes spontaneously to her, he becomes a man, and the little boy with a pinched face lashing and spitting at everything he sees is gone. He'll be back, but now we know her shadow. Darker rides, darker rides, and the little boy with a pinched heart. I repeat myself across the room, bursting May leaves with a sap not even you knew would come. I've come to look for America. Your bad teeth deny you the sustenence and the sentience to bleach lopped halls with loops from my origination, my divinity, and the sanguine. That black car that's never been on this block is our use; we smashed the front steps and dragged them off behind the trees http://www.lewislacook.org/xanaxpop/ *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| sign up now! poetry, code, forums, blogs, newsfeeds... || http://www.corporatepa.com || Everything creative for business -- New York Web Design and Consulting Corporate Performance Artists --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:41:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through the =20 >Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume =E2=80=94 say 100 pages =E2=80= =94 of =20 >excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come from =20 >early in his career, and some from late in his life. > >Pierre =20 This is the answer I agree with the most, thanks Pierre. Yeah yeah yeah, everyone wants to prove how cool they are by saying how totally empty and useless the long writing life of Bukowski was. Well you're wrong. =20 And to say that his shock value was unimportant is to not have the eyes to see when he said, where he said, what he said. And the best thing is that his shock value was for the most part Bukowski being himself. =20 And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man being himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which has framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To say that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not a worth= y subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the conversation. =20 It's much like the idea that if you do NOT have a MA or MFA that you really should just shut your mouth. I've heard this A LOT since I do not have formal degrees. In fact I've heard this second hand about ME from someone on this list as a matter of fact. Which is fine, especially if this person doesn't have the courage to say so to my face in person. =20 Class structure is also framed of course in education. In fact it's there where the embankment is made and kept to maintain order from the Bukowskis and other riff raff. It's like the time I was at a certain university moderating a panel of poets and I asked those poets what they thought and felt about MA and MFA degrees in writing. Well, you couldn't believe the "controversy" such a question caused. In fact one person in the audience ACTUALLY told me that I had "no right to ask such a question in a university!" What!? Get the FUCK out of here! =20 And by the way, the question's answers were great! A good mix, a healthy mix of answers all around. And isn't that really what university time is for, to question, everything? Guess not, for everyone. Suckers! =20 And enough already with the fucking back channeled responses telling me about Bukowski and women! I've already covered how I feel about that and I'm not sure you read what I already covered here on that. Sorry if there are men who like to eat pussy, okay!? Is that what you want from me? An apology for Bukowski eating pussy? Geesh! He's dead, okay? All the pussy of the world is SAFE from his eating now! =20 It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we don't dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion about what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar talk is to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your way, dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose. =20 CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_=20 (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/)=20 "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be =20 restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_=20 (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/)=20 for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_=20 (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/)=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:54:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <43c.37a182.3194a726@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Craig, I do not care one flying poop whether anybody on this list thinks I am cool. That was not my purpose in responding as I did regarding Bukowski and Collins. As the owner of a pussy, I do rather like to have it eaten. It has been my experience that when whoever is doing the eating is drunk, the quality of the eating, from the POV of the eat-ee, declines considerably. Your mileage may vary. Shock value is great. Indeed, had Billy Collins even a fraction of Bukowski's shock value, he mightn't be so deadly boring. I also don't give a flying poop whether somebody has a graduate, or any, degree. My life's sweet companion has no college degree at all. I have an MFA. Was it fun to get? Hell yes. My partners in crime included Heather Fuller, Ethan Fugate, Susan Landers, Betsy Andrews, Carol Mirakove, Allison Cobb, Jennifer Coleman, and many others. Is the degree, academic-advancement-wise, as useless as tits on a boar hog? Pretty much. I just don't like the creative output of either Buk or Collins. I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-am. Is it not possible NOT to like Bukowski without being some kind of goddamn anti-worker counterrevolutionary? Respectfully, Gwyn "Comes From a Long Line of Coal Miners" McVay --- "Everybody's got a little light under the sun" -- Parliament, "Flash Light" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:55:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <43c.37a182.3194a726@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It's curious how easy many people find it to dismiss, say, the work of Elizabeth Bishop, and yet so difficult to accept those who don't find Bukowski interesting. Instead of speaking generally, why don't advocates for his work point to specific poems (unless I missed some) that are interesting, or show how, specifically, the intersection of his life and work produces something interesting. Burroughs is a great example of how one's life becomes a work of art that illuminates his other, more static, artistic productions. It may boil down to a question of taste, however. I would like someone who appreciates Bukowski's poems to list some poems (or discuss some poems) that demonstrate how interesting he is as a writer. Or, if they don't have the time for a discussion, to point to some essays or books that illuminate or treat the poems in interesting ways. Best, Joseph __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:01:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: on elitism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>On 10 May 2006 at 10:19, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: >> ... the >> wisest who partner in understanding the mechanics UNDERSTAND >> to this day what was lost by the wisest in Europe centuries ago >> (due to Christian domination and destruction). The mandalas that >> the Tibetan Buddhists make are not just pretty designs, they are >> the actual WORKING blueprints of the hidden code of energy AS >> IT IS BENDING. >> My own theory here is that the Internet is our way home to that. >> I know a million people will want to JUMP DOWN MY THROAT for >> saying this, but, I TRULY BELIEVE that the Internet is the West's >> way Home to that understanding of hidden code....<< >Well, I suppose we can always hope you really believe this, and that >natural selection will inevitably get rid of you, and all those who believe as >you do, since none of you can, without profound contradiction to your own >beliefs, go to doctors or dentists or do anything that takes advantage of any >of the western notions of how the world works, such as use computers or ... >oops! > >Marcus Marcus, how is that you can't believe all things are possible at once? Is this really such a foreign idea to you? In India it seems they maintain remnants of all their past. In the middle of one of the fastest growing economies of "western" technologies they also have hijras, a community of men who are eunuchs of self-inflicted wounds, and these men are left over from the times of the khans. Left over from watching over the harems, thus the reason for being eunuchs. But it's taken on a more spiritual role now, and hijras have a place in everyday society at weddings, births, etc... And of course there are temples to the goddess Kali, to Shiva, to Ganesha, etc. And you might want to see how in America we still have churches of every possible denomination. Jesus Christ is well worshipped in the land of Microsoft and iPod dear Marcus. Oops back to you sir. What the fuck kind of world view are you attempting to accrue with the thoughts you put forth? Are you living under a rock that you don't actually know about the vastly growing "alternative" medicine culture in America? And guess what Marcus? That "alternative" medicine culture is basing everything they know on medicine FAR older (in fact often ancient) than the doctors you oops me on. Oops yourself you knuckle-head! CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:08:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <20060511145521.44539.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joseph et al... If anyone is interested, I wrote a long essay about this, & about BUK, and published it last year on PFS Post. Google "Learning from Bukowski", it'll come right up. Or in the archives at www.artrecess.blogspot.com Adam Fieled Joseph Thomas wrote: It's curious how easy many people find it to dismiss, say, the work of Elizabeth Bishop, and yet so difficult to accept those who don't find Bukowski interesting. Instead of speaking generally, why don't advocates for his work point to specific poems (unless I missed some) that are interesting, or show how, specifically, the intersection of his life and work produces something interesting. Burroughs is a great example of how one's life becomes a work of art that illuminates his other, more static, artistic productions. It may boil down to a question of taste, however. I would like someone who appreciates Bukowski's poems to list some poems (or discuss some poems) that demonstrate how interesting he is as a writer. Or, if they don't have the time for a discussion, to point to some essays or books that illuminate or treat the poems in interesting ways. Best, Joseph __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:13:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anna Vitale Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <20060511145521.44539.qmail@web53113.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I really loved Bukowski in high school. My boyfriend read me Bukowski. I read all the Bukowski I could get my hands on. I thought the titles of his books were great! For instance, Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit. That's a long title and I'll never forget it because it made such an impression on me. It made sense to me. It was funny and sad. Looking at it now, I like the p's and the b's in there. I'm not that fond of long titles that just say something funny now, but I'm also not that interested in getting drunk and bleeding. I was in high school. I recently watched Bukowski: Born Into This, the documentary on Bukowski that came out last summer. My Dad bought it for me because he knew how much I liked Bukowski 7 years ago. I honestly think if I still saw the world the way Bukowski saw it, which is that life is hell, you're lonely, life is hell, you're lonely, then I'd still like his work. But I guess that's really too simple because he also derived a lot of pleasure from writing and his cats and Linda Bukowski. He was really committed to writing, probably because he really needed it. (= I imagine, in some form, that all writers do need writing, maybe not as desperately as him . . .) I can still feel that need for the writing in his work, I think that comes through. I think that drive, determination (and desperation) is interesting. Bukowski went through the meat grinder, was al= l cut up, poured alcohol all over himself, and somehow never killed himself, and wrote very funny, sad things. As we know, he was very crude and disgusting, but also a bit charming. I think some of his writing is like that, too. (His beer shit stories are hysterical!) I haven't looked at it i= n a while, but go take a peek at Play the Piano Drunk Like a . . . maybe some of the poems in there do what I remember them doing. Best, Anna Vitale On 5/11/06, Joseph Thomas wrote: > > It's curious how easy many people find it to dismiss, > say, the work of Elizabeth Bishop, and yet so > difficult to accept those who don't find Bukowski > interesting. Instead of speaking generally, why don't > advocates for his work point to specific poems (unless > I missed some) that are interesting, or show how, > specifically, the intersection of his life and work > produces something interesting. Burroughs is a great > example of how one's life becomes a work of art that > illuminates his other, more static, artistic > productions. > > It may boil down to a question of taste, however. I > would like someone who appreciates Bukowski's poems to > list some poems (or discuss some poems) that > demonstrate how interesting he is as a writer. Or, if > they don't have the time for a discussion, to point to > some essays or books that illuminate or treat the > poems in interesting ways. > > Best, > Joseph > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --=20 live more: annavitale.blogspot.com www.myspace.com/meltingmoments ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: <43c.37a182.3194a726@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Actually there already is an excellent Bukowski anthology, poetry & prose--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER Edited by John Martin (NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) the book is organized chronologically, not by dates of the writing, but of the bio, so as to read like a form of memoir--as the back cover blurb puts it "from brutal childhood to reluctant stardom"-- a lot of Bukowski's ealry work--NOTES OF A DIRTY OLD MAN for ex.--appeared in "underground" newspapers --was geared to a hip young audience--in the midst of the squalor he'll be discussing "Hem" and Dost"--his literary dreams and ambitions fired by the greats--(with humor, too, but also sincereity)-- it's interesting to read that billy c and bukowski are thought of as not having written memorable poems that stand out from the work as a whole--as another poet often accused of this is charles bernstein- so what do those three all have in common? >From: Craig Allen Conrad >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:41:42 EDT > > >I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through the > >Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume — say 100 pages — of > >excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come from > >early in his career, and some from late in his life. > > > >Pierre > >This is the answer I agree with the most, thanks Pierre. Yeah yeah yeah, >everyone wants to prove how cool they are by saying how totally empty >and useless the long writing life of Bukowski was. Well you're wrong. > >And to say that his shock value was unimportant is to not have the eyes >to see when he said, where he said, what he said. And the best thing >is that his shock value was for the most part Bukowski being himself. > >And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man being >himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which has >framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To say >that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not a >worthy >subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the conversation. > >It's much like the idea that if you do NOT have a MA or MFA that you >really should just shut your mouth. I've heard this A LOT since I do not >have formal degrees. In fact I've heard this second hand about ME from >someone on this list as a matter of fact. Which is fine, especially if >this person doesn't have the courage to say so to my face in person. > >Class structure is also framed of course in education. In fact it's there >where the embankment is made and kept to maintain order from >the Bukowskis and other riff raff. It's like the time I was at a certain >university moderating a panel of poets and I asked those poets what >they thought and felt about MA and MFA degrees in writing. Well, you >couldn't believe the "controversy" such a question caused. In fact one >person in the audience ACTUALLY told me that I had "no right to ask >such a question in a university!" What!? Get the FUCK out of here! > >And by the way, the question's answers were great! A good mix, a >healthy mix of answers all around. And isn't that really what university >time is for, to question, everything? Guess not, for everyone. Suckers! > >And enough already with the fucking back channeled responses telling >me about Bukowski and women! I've already covered how I feel about >that and I'm not sure you read what I already covered here on that. >Sorry if there are men who like to eat pussy, okay!? Is that what you >want from me? An apology for Bukowski eating pussy? Geesh! He's >dead, okay? All the pussy of the world is SAFE from his eating now! > >It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we don't >dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion about >what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar talk is >to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your way, >dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose. > >CAConrad >CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >restrained...." >--William Blake >for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 08:48:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Truitt Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this ties back to the Elizabeth Bishop stir - to control or not flow. It has to do with isolating a product that can be sucked into a system and so a hierarchy - the honkie hierarchy - versus process and its mess and scramble and gleamings - struggle - which is actual - and so of much more use as it is our condition. Such remains a possibility - unifinished - it opens - something to be added - we are possible as we are unfinished - and so we can breathe - we can extend. We can keep going - and it keep going. Poetry is prophetic, then - unrealized - and to do that it's a profanity. We need the shit. David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: Actually there already is an excellent Bukowski anthology, poetry & prose--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER Edited by John Martin (NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) the book is organized chronologically, not by dates of the writing, but of the bio, so as to read like a form of memoir--as the back cover blurb puts it "from brutal childhood to reluctant stardom"-- a lot of Bukowski's ealry work--NOTES OF A DIRTY OLD MAN for ex.--appeared in "underground" newspapers --was geared to a hip young audience--in the midst of the squalor he'll be discussing "Hem" and Dost"--his literary dreams and ambitions fired by the greats--(with humor, too, but also sincereity)-- it's interesting to read that billy c and bukowski are thought of as not having written memorable poems that stand out from the work as a whole--as another poet often accused of this is charles bernstein- so what do those three all have in common? >From: Craig Allen Conrad >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:41:42 EDT > > >I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through the > >Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume — say 100 pages — of > >excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come from > >early in his career, and some from late in his life. > > > >Pierre > >This is the answer I agree with the most, thanks Pierre. Yeah yeah yeah, >everyone wants to prove how cool they are by saying how totally empty >and useless the long writing life of Bukowski was. Well you're wrong. > >And to say that his shock value was unimportant is to not have the eyes >to see when he said, where he said, what he said. And the best thing >is that his shock value was for the most part Bukowski being himself. > >And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man being >himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which has >framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To say >that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not a >worthy >subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the conversation. > >It's much like the idea that if you do NOT have a MA or MFA that you >really should just shut your mouth. I've heard this A LOT since I do not >have formal degrees. In fact I've heard this second hand about ME from >someone on this list as a matter of fact. Which is fine, especially if >this person doesn't have the courage to say so to my face in person. > >Class structure is also framed of course in education. In fact it's there >where the embankment is made and kept to maintain order from >the Bukowskis and other riff raff. It's like the time I was at a certain >university moderating a panel of poets and I asked those poets what >they thought and felt about MA and MFA degrees in writing. Well, you >couldn't believe the "controversy" such a question caused. In fact one >person in the audience ACTUALLY told me that I had "no right to ask >such a question in a university!" What!? Get the FUCK out of here! > >And by the way, the question's answers were great! A good mix, a >healthy mix of answers all around. And isn't that really what university >time is for, to question, everything? Guess not, for everyone. Suckers! > >And enough already with the fucking back channeled responses telling >me about Bukowski and women! I've already covered how I feel about >that and I'm not sure you read what I already covered here on that. >Sorry if there are men who like to eat pussy, okay!? Is that what you >want from me? An apology for Bukowski eating pussy? Geesh! He's >dead, okay? All the pussy of the world is SAFE from his eating now! > >It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we don't >dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion about >what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar talk is >to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your way, >dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose. > >CAConrad >CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >restrained...." >--William Blake >for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------ Sam Truitt PO Box 20058 NYC 10023 --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Hijras In-Reply-To: A<26a.a353ac6.3194abe7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Although the intention is understood, the fact-parade here, remains distorted. Hijras are not considered "auspicious" in marriage ceremonies in many parts of India. India is very diverse country where a completely different language is spoken nearly every 200 miles. I also doubt if the "Hijra"s have taken on a "more spiritual role". A large part of this rather marginal and impoverished community survived through decades living off an ancient Indian prejudice. It was believed that a male child grows up to be a prosperous young man only if he was blessed by the eunuchs, aka "Hijra"s. You said - < these men are left over from the times of the khans>. That's not accurate either.Hijras were part of the mainstream Indian society way before the advent of the Moguls. The great Indian epics, Ramayana and Mahabharata, both include "Hijra" characters. They were called "kleeb" meaning "asexual". The hijras present a very interesting cultural persona and have been written about by many Indian writers. Their marginalization, both sexual and economic, has led to a number of indepth studies. My second verse-collection, "Weathercock Mind" includes a section of 16 poems titled "Bimal-Bimalaa" where I talk about two eunuchs "Bimal" and "Bimalaa", who discover in themselves, many fragments of our normal social relationships - like a friend is a wife is a brother is a sister is a parent is a guru is a disciple. It was attempt to look at the world with "asexual" (unindoctrinated) eyes. Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:16:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable didn't buk play a part in the john fante revival?=20 isn't that something to be glad of? i too loved=20 buk in high school; he and creeley were my poetry=20 turn-ons back in the 70s. i still have some=20 affection for that sensibility, though not for=20 the many knock-offs thereof. At 10:19 AM -0500 5/11/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >Actually there already is an excellent Bukowski=20 >anthology, poetry & prose--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A=20 >CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER Edited by John Martin=20 >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) >the book is organized chronologically, not by=20 >dates of the writing, but of the bio, so as to=20 >read like a form of memoir--as the back cover=20 >blurb puts it "from brutal childhood to=20 >reluctant stardom"-- > >a lot of Bukowski's ealry work--NOTES OF A DIRTY=20 >OLD MAN for ex.--appeared in "underground"=20 >newspapers --was geared to a hip young=20 >audience--in the midst of the squalor he'll be=20 >discussing "Hem" and Dost"--his literary dreams=20 >and ambitions fired by the greats--(with humor,=20 >too, but also sincereity)-- > >it's interesting to read that billy c and=20 >bukowski are thought of as not having written=20 >memorable poems that stand out from the work as=20 >a whole--as another poet often accused of this=20 >is charles bernstein- > >so what do those three all have in common? > >>From: Craig Allen Conrad >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >>Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:41:42 EDT >> >>>I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through the >>>Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume =E2*=94 say 100 pages =E2*=94 = of >>>excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come from >>>early in his career, and some from late in his life. >>> >>>Pierre >> >>This is the answer I agree with the most, thanks Pierre. Yeah yeah yeah, >>everyone wants to prove how cool they are by saying how totally empty >>and useless the long writing life of Bukowski was. Well you're wrong. >> >>And to say that his shock value was unimportant is to not have the eyes >>to see when he said, where he said, what he said. And the best thing >>is that his shock value was for the most part Bukowski being himself. >> >>And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man being >>himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which has >>framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To say >>that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not a wor= thy >>subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the conversation. >> >>It's much like the idea that if you do NOT have a MA or MFA that you >>really should just shut your mouth. I've heard this A LOT since I do not >>have formal degrees. In fact I've heard this second hand about ME from >>someone on this list as a matter of fact. Which is fine, especially if >>this person doesn't have the courage to say so to my face in person. >> >>Class structure is also framed of course in education. In fact it's ther= e >>where the embankment is made and kept to maintain order from >>the Bukowskis and other riff raff. It's like the time I was at a certain >>university moderating a panel of poets and I asked those poets what >>they thought and felt about MA and MFA degrees in writing. Well, you >>couldn't believe the "controversy" such a question caused. In fact one >>person in the audience ACTUALLY told me that I had "no right to ask >>such a question in a university!" What!? Get the FUCK out of here! >> >>And by the way, the question's answers were great! A good mix, a >>healthy mix of answers all around. And isn't that really what university >>time is for, to question, everything? Guess not, for everyone. Suckers! >> >>And enough already with the fucking back channeled responses telling >>me about Bukowski and women! I've already covered how I feel about >>that and I'm not sure you read what I already covered here on that. >>Sorry if there are men who like to eat pussy, okay!? Is that what you >>want from me? An apology for Bukowski eating pussy? Geesh! He's >>dead, okay? All the pussy of the world is SAFE from his eating now! >> >>It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we don't >>dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion about >>what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar talk is >>to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your way, >>dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose. >> >>CAConrad >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >>restrained...." >>--William Blake >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > >_________________________________________________________________ >FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar =96=20 >get it now!=20 >http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:13:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If bukowski turned people on to Fante then all is forgiven-- does anyone have Elizabeth Robinson's email?=20 I really think comparing Billy Collins to Bukowski is silly- does anyone = on the list really read Billy Collins? At least the Black Sparrow editions = of Billy Collins are nice to look at, the only collins I like is Eddie = Collins and Tom Collins=20 R =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:17 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski = Reader-- didn't buk play a part in the john fante revival?=20 isn't that something to be glad of? i too loved buk in high school; he = and creeley were my poetry turn-ons back in the 70s. i still have some affection for that sensibility, though not for the many knock-offs = thereof. At 10:19 AM -0500 5/11/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >Actually there already is an excellent Bukowski anthology, poetry &=20 >prose--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER Edited by John=20 >Martin >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) >the book is organized chronologically, not by dates of the writing, but = >of the bio, so as to read like a form of memoir--as the back cover=20 >blurb puts it "from brutal childhood to reluctant stardom"-- > >a lot of Bukowski's ealry work--NOTES OF A DIRTY OLD MAN for=20 >ex.--appeared in "underground" >newspapers --was geared to a hip young audience--in the midst of the=20 >squalor he'll be discussing "Hem" and Dost"--his literary dreams and=20 >ambitions fired by the greats--(with humor, too, but also sincereity)-- > >it's interesting to read that billy c and bukowski are thought of as=20 >not having written memorable poems that stand out from the work as a=20 >whole--as another poet often accused of this is charles bernstein- > >so what do those three all have in common? > >>From: Craig Allen Conrad >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >>Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:41:42 EDT >> >>>I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through =20 >>>the Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume =E2*=94 say 100 pages = =E2*=94 =20 >>>of excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come=20 >>>from early in his career, and some from late in his life. >>> >>>Pierre >> >>This is the answer I agree with the most, thanks Pierre. Yeah yeah =20 >>yeah, everyone wants to prove how cool they are by saying how totally=20 >>empty and useless the long writing life of Bukowski was. Well you're wrong. >> >>And to say that his shock value was unimportant is to not have the =20 >>eyes to see when he said, where he said, what he said. And the best =20 >>thing is that his shock value was for the most part Bukowski being himself. >> >>And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man being=20 >>himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which has=20 >>framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To say=20 >>that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not a = >>worthy subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the = conversation. >> >>It's much like the idea that if you do NOT have a MA or MFA that you=20 >>really should just shut your mouth. I've heard this A LOT since I do = >>not have formal degrees. In fact I've heard this second hand about ME = =20 >>from someone on this list as a matter of fact. Which is fine,=20 >>especially if this person doesn't have the courage to say so to my = face in person. >> >>Class structure is also framed of course in education. In fact it's =20 >>there where the embankment is made and kept to maintain order from the = >>Bukowskis and other riff raff. It's like the time I was at a certain = >>university moderating a panel of poets and I asked those poets what=20 >>they thought and felt about MA and MFA degrees in writing. Well, you = >>couldn't believe the "controversy" such a question caused. In fact =20 >>one person in the audience ACTUALLY told me that I had "no right to=20 >>ask such a question in a university!" What!? Get the FUCK out of = here! >> >>And by the way, the question's answers were great! A good mix, a=20 >>healthy mix of answers all around. And isn't that really what = university >>time is for, to question, everything? Guess not, for everyone. = Suckers! >> >>And enough already with the fucking back channeled responses telling=20 >>me about Bukowski and women! I've already covered how I feel about=20 >>that and I'm not sure you read what I already covered here on that. >>Sorry if there are men who like to eat pussy, okay!? Is that what = you >>want from me? An apology for Bukowski eating pussy? Geesh! He's >>dead, okay? All the pussy of the world is SAFE from his eating now! >> >>It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we =20 >>don't dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion=20 >>about what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar=20 >>talk is to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your = =20 >>way, dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose. >> >>CAConrad >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) = >>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be = >>restrained...." >>--William Blake >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > >_________________________________________________________________ >FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar =96 get it now! >http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I really think comparing Billy Collins to Bukowski is silly- does anyone on the list really read Billy Collins? At least the Black Sparrow editions of Billy Collins are nice to look at, that must be it, the black sparrow connection! On 5/11/06, Haas Bianchi wrote: > > If bukowski turned people on to Fante then all is forgiven-- does anyone > have Elizabeth Robinson's email? > > I really think comparing Billy Collins to Bukowski is silly- does anyone > on > the list really read Billy Collins? At least the Black Sparrow editions o= f > Billy Collins are nice to look at, the only collins I like is Eddie > Collins > and Tom Collins > > R > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] O= n > Behalf Of Maria Damon > Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 11:17 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski > Reader-- > > didn't buk play a part in the john fante revival? > isn't that something to be glad of? i too loved buk in high school; he an= d > creeley were my poetry turn-ons back in the 70s. i still have some > affection for that sensibility, though not for the many knock-offs > thereof. > > At 10:19 AM -0500 5/11/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > >Actually there already is an excellent Bukowski anthology, poetry & > >prose--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER Edited by John > >Martin > >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) > >the book is organized chronologically, not by dates of the writing, but > >of the bio, so as to read like a form of memoir--as the back cover > >blurb puts it "from brutal childhood to reluctant stardom"-- > > > >a lot of Bukowski's ealry work--NOTES OF A DIRTY OLD MAN for > >ex.--appeared in "underground" > >newspapers --was geared to a hip young audience--in the midst of the > >squalor he'll be discussing "Hem" and Dost"--his literary dreams and > >ambitions fired by the greats--(with humor, too, but also sincereity)-- > > > >it's interesting to read that billy c and bukowski are thought of as > >not having written memorable poems that stand out from the work as a > >whole--as another poet often accused of this is charles bernstein- > > > >so what do those three all have in common? > > > >>From: Craig Allen Conrad > >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? > >>Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:41:42 EDT > >> > >>>I would however suggest that if someone was willing to go through > >>>the Complete Buk, one could assemble a volume =E2*" say 100 pages =E2*= " > >>>of excellent work, some of which (in fact mcuh of which) would come > >>>from early in his career, and some from late in his life. > >>> > >>>Pierre > >> > >>This is the answer I agree with the most, thanks Pierre. Yeah yeah > >>yeah, everyone wants to prove how cool they are by saying how totally > >>empty and useless the long writing life of Bukowski was. Well you're > wrong. > >> > >>And to say that his shock value was unimportant is to not have the > >>eyes to see when he said, where he said, what he said. And the best > >>thing is that his shock value was for the most part Bukowski being > himself. > >> > >>And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man being > >>himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which has > >>framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To say > >>that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not a > >>worthy subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the conversation= . > >> > >>It's much like the idea that if you do NOT have a MA or MFA that you > >>really should just shut your mouth. I've heard this A LOT since I do > >>not have formal degrees. In fact I've heard this second hand about ME > >>from someone on this list as a matter of fact. Which is fine, > >>especially if this person doesn't have the courage to say so to my fac= e > in person. > >> > >>Class structure is also framed of course in education. In fact it's > >>there where the embankment is made and kept to maintain order from the > >>Bukowskis and other riff raff. It's like the time I was at a certain > >>university moderating a panel of poets and I asked those poets what > >>they thought and felt about MA and MFA degrees in writing. Well, you > >>couldn't believe the "controversy" such a question caused. In fact > >>one person in the audience ACTUALLY told me that I had "no right to > >>ask such a question in a university!" What!? Get the FUCK out > of here! > >> > >>And by the way, the question's answers were great! A good mix, a > >>healthy mix of answers all around. And isn't that really > what university > >>time is for, to question, everything? Guess not, for everyone. > Suckers! > >> > >>And enough already with the fucking back channeled responses telling > >>me about Bukowski and women! I've already covered how I feel about > >>that and I'm not sure you read what I already covered here on that. > >>Sorry if there are men who like to eat pussy, okay!? Is that what you > >>want from me? An apology for Bukowski eating pussy? Geesh! He's > >>dead, okay? All the pussy of the world is SAFE from his eating now! > >> > >>It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we > >>don't dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion > >>about what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar > >>talk is to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your > >>way, dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose. > >> > >>CAConrad > >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > >>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > >>restrained...." > >>--William Blake > >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > >>(http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar =96 get it now! > >http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > --=20 http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:31:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: HOLIDAY IDYLLING by Vernon Frazeris now available from BlazeVox Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://jacketmagazine.com/rev/blazevox.shtml#vf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:36:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eleni Stecopoulos Subject: San Francisco studio sublet June 9 - July 9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Beautiful studio in the heart of the sunny Mission. Fantastic location, right between Mission and Valencia, yet quiet and peaceful. Short walk to BART and Dolores Park, steps from great restaurants & cafes, independent bookstores, bars, galleries, murals, performance spaces, etc. Lots of light, high ceilings, separate spacious kitchen, gas stove, clawfoot tub, queen-sized bed, very charming with chandeliers & stained glass windows. Back deck overlooking beautiful garden. $975 for the month, plus security deposit. I'm trying to find a non-smoker for June 9 through July 9. A portion of this time might also be possible. Please backchannel if you're interested. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:24:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eleni Stecopoulos Subject: Sarah Riggs & Omar Berrada: May 16th 7 PM @ Poetry Center Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Please join the SFSU Craft of Translation class for a talk with Omar Berrada & Sarah Riggs: Mother Lungs Excercises in A(e)rabics (Omar) Transphysiolation (Sarah) and an informal group reading of translations, including MFA students, Maxine Chernoff, Paul Hoover, Norma Cole, Jerrold Shiroma, & others. Tuesday, May 16 7:00 PM the Poetry Center at San Francisco State U (HUM 512) -- Sarah Riggs has lived in Paris since 2001, and was born in New York in 1971. She is the author of Word Sightings: Poetry and Visual Media in Stevens, Bishop, & O’Hara (Routledge,‘02). Her poetry appears in American Letters & Commentary, Aufgabe, Chain, Conjunctions, New American Writing, Petite, and 1913-A Journal of Forms. She does visual work in mixed media, and is the participating American in the Koi Noburi Peace Festival in conjunction with UNESCO that begins touring Europe in May 2005. Along with Omar Berrada, she is part of Double Change, a bilingual poetry association in Paris that organizes readings and a web journal. She is the translator of Isabelle Garron’s Face before against (Seeing Eye Books’05), and co- translator of Marie Borel’s Fox Trump(www.doublechange.com , Issue 4,) and Oscarine Bosquet’s By Day (Duration Press ’05). After growing up in Casablanca, Omar Berrada has been living in Paris for about 10 years. He has translated works by Joan Retallack, Jennifer Moxley, Avital Ronell, Rod Mengham, Mark Ford into French and, with Sarah Riggs, works by Marie Borel and Oscarine Bosquet into English. He is a member of Double Change, a French and American association devoted to poetry and translation www.doublechange.com. He hosts and produces the radio program La nuit la poesie on France Culture and is a contributing editor of Les Lettres francaises. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:29:14 -0400 Reply-To: stephen@poetshouse.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Motika Organization: Poets House Subject: Alphanumeric Paintings by August Highland at Poets House Opening this Fri (5/12) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please join us for the opening reception of innovative visual works by the editor and publisher of The Mag: ALPHANUMERIC PAINTINGS by AUGUST HIGHLAND "Sacred Burial Grounds" Friday May 12, 2006, 6-8pm Poets House, 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York City Info: 212-431-7920 or www.poetshouse.org Like ancient civilization slumbering beneath cities of glass and street, classical poetries are buried deep in August Highland's visual texts on large canvases, which explore the modern experience of language. August Highland is an experimental writer and visual artist based in San Diego. He is the founding editor and publisher of The Mag (http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com,) an online international literary review of innovative writing. Since developing "Alphanumeric Painting" in 2002, he has shown in over 25 exhibitions with upcoming shows in Tokyo, Prague, Los Angeles, and Kansas City. For more info, please visit www.august-highland.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:52:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11-May-06, at 9:16 AM, Maria Damon wrote: > didn't buk play a part in the john fante revival? isn't that something > to be glad of? i too loved buk in high school; Hard to imagine liking him past 5th grade . . . . gb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:54:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sandra Subject: 1913 + paris + vous MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I heart Paris in the springtime... please join 1913 for an especial Paris event on May 27! *Ivy Writers* presents a fully bi-lingual French & English reading to celebrate the launch of the magnifique new issue of 1913 a journal of forms= , which features a special French poetry & translation section. Join French & American poets *Suzanne Doppelt, Lisa Fishman, Sally Keith, Hank Lazer, Sabine Macher, Sarah Riggs, Eric Such=E8re, *&* Cole Swensen *for this extra-extra event at: Rose Th=E9 104, ave L=E9dru-Rollin, 75011 Paris (m=E9tro L=E9dru-Rollin) Entr=E9e gratuite. 27 May @ 16h30 For more info: http://journal1913.org/events.html and to purchase your very own 1913: http://www.journal1913.org 1913 is distributed by SPD & Ingram. Make demands at your local bookstore. To donate needed funds to 1913, please go to: http://journal1913.org/support1913.html Merci pour tous! -l'editrice de 1913 http://www.1913press.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:16:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common?/Bukowski Reader-- In-Reply-To: <3AB7FABE-E11F-11DA-941A-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" well excuuuuse me, mr blowinger... At 11:52 AM -0700 5/11/06, George Bowering wrote: >On 11-May-06, at 9:16 AM, Maria Damon wrote: > >>didn't buk play a part in the john fante revival? isn't that >>something to be glad of? i too loved buk in high school; > >Hard to imagine liking him past 5th grade . . . . > >gb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:49:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: FW: NYC next week--you are welcome to come hear/see MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Stevens and I are presenting a keynote at the UN forum next week in NYC (May 16th, 1:oopm), all forum attendees are welcome. Following the UN presentation, we will read jointly at 5pm at the Bowery Project; all free and all welcome to attend--WOMPOS especially welcome. I also have some work in the Crossing Boundaries: Writers Who Paint exhibition. I'll go by and see it sometime on the 17th. Anyone in the area is very welcome. Allison A. Hedge Coke ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:51:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weaver Subject: reminder-call for submits In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello all, a reminder of the upcoming submit. date: Midway, a new on-line literary journal, is seeking submissions of ambitious work that aesthetically or otherwise traverses points and spaces of intersections between different aesthetics and practices. Please send 3 to 5 poems, 1 work of fiction (or 2 works of flash fiction), 1 play, 1 essay (if it transcends its subject matter). Collaborative cross-genre, and multi-genre work enthusiastically encouraged. We are unable to process electronic submissions at this time. All submissions must be postmarked by June 1, 2006. Please send manuscripts to: PO Box 14499, St. Paul, MN 55114. correspondence only: editor@midwayjournal.com First issue planned for Sept. 2006 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:31:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: Re: was RE: looking for distributors In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm posting this reply to the list; I hope Tom Orange doesn't mind (it started as a reply to him) Charles -- you have to do it anew each time -- start with the author's publications, institutions, towns, see if they are still around, the = library reference books, look at the big networks of links like Selby's -- the turnover is 100% annually in publishing, so I don't see the point of = list management -- I want to say that I generally try to give the curator of any reading = series / host of any reading, classroom visit, etc. I read in a copy of any = books I have around to give and s/he doesn't have since I think that's a = valuable thing do to, and also because my experience has been that many authors = treat curators as customers rather than colleagues, and I good curators work = very hard, and I HEARTILY encourage giving books to curators; I object to the requirement to use a book as a $10-$15 application fee for a reading or other opportunity, when we all know so few of those queries pan out. In order to get readings at local venues in LA, features at open mikes, etc., it is pretty common to have to submit or be asked to submit your = book or books; to apply to book fairs, to try to get your hometown library to order a couple copies, to apply for readings at academic institutions = with reading series, ditto (sometimes I send a SASE in hopes that they'll = return them, especially schools, which I would hope would at least recognize MLA-standard application policies); in many bookstores, one is = encouraged to donate books (or consign them where you know you'll never see the book = or money again). what formed this habit locally was curators trying to make a distinction between 1) slammers who have progressed to self producing chapbooks they sell at readings, and 2) those who read from crumpled notebook paper, = when they aren't bothering to know about potential readers outside their = coterie -- i.e., a lot of these curators of reading series, after they say, no = you really have to send me your books or I really won't schedule you, when = they receive the books, are like, OH WOW these are books! now I'm going to = sell them on Amazon I know Walter Lew's advice to me has always been, treat your books like really, really expensive business cards, but they're too expensive! I suppose I want to treat CD Rom business cards with .pdfs of the books on them like business cards, and treat books like $10 gifts to people I = think should have them, curators who've scheduled me, reviewers who've = expressed interest in reviewing the books, people who cut my hair, neighbors, etc. All best, Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:49:05 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 12/5/06 12:54 AM, "Gwyn McVay" wrote: > Dear Craig, >=20 > I do not care one flying poop whether anybody on this list thinks I am > cool. That was not my purpose in responding as I did regarding Bukowski > and Collins. >=20 > As the owner of a pussy, I do rather like to have it eaten. It has been m= y > experience that when whoever is doing the eating is drunk, the quality of > the eating, from the POV of the eat-ee, declines considerably. Your > mileage may vary. Go Gwyn. Bukowski is very often funny - I've laughed at his poems, though I agree with whoever said it's also clich=E9 stuff about horse races and working men etc - but he's almost wholly misogynistic in his writing about women. I guess people still think this is okay and not worth objecting to, just as "sexism" is not up there with "racism" as objectionable speech on this list's guidelines. Wasn't he a mentor of Tom Waits? I'll give him this as a plus. Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:58:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: on elitism In-Reply-To: <26a.a353ac6.3194abe7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Marcus, how is that you can't believe all things are possible at > once? << Because all things are not possible at once. You cannot be alive and dead, flying and burrowing, skiing and sleeping, all at once. You cannot be in New York and Paris at the same time. You cannot be dying of a virus and perfectly healthy at the same time. There is no frictionless surface and no perpetual motion machine and Mohammed Abatcha does not really have 34 million dollars to give you if you'll only send him a check for $50,000 to prove your bona fides. The notion that there are contradictions, ineluctable, inevitable contradictions, is obvious to the meanest amoeba -- why isn't it obvious to you? On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Is this really such a foreign idea to you?< Yes. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > In India it seems they maintain remnants of all their past. In the > middle of one of the fastest growing economies of "western" technologies they > also have hijras, a community of men who are eunuchs of self-inflicted > wounds, and these men are left over from the times of the khans.< I'll bet they're not the same people, though. You can find Bushites, perhaps the guy next to you at work, who fevently believe that the Iraq war is a righteous war -- are you committed to that war because they are? Propinquity is unpersuasive. The fact that someone believes in something is no guarantee that it's worth believing in. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Jesus Christ is well worshipped in the land of Microsoft and iPod > dear Marcus. Oops back to you sir.< You're the one writing on the computer claiming that mandalas are bending energy that no one can show the results of using, or even test for. The contradiction lies not in the fact that some people are religious and some are not and they live next door to each other; the contradiction lies in those who shout that they believe something that, if they really believed it, would make them forego the use of the medium in which they are shouting. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > What the fuck kind of world view are you attempting to accrue with > the thoughts you put forth?< The world in which we can make testable hypotheses -- and then test them, modify them, and test them again. Mere assertions of belief or fact are insufficient. Don't just tell me, show me. You think mandalas bend energy? Devise a theory of that energy, and a test to demonstrate the bending that is replicable. Until then, it's just more religious crap that enslaves people, I think deliberately, to slave for temporal powers for nonexistent supernatural rewards. In short, fraud. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Are you living under a rock that you don't actually know about the > vastly > growing "alternative" medicine culture in America? And guess what > Marcus? That "alternative" medicine culture is basing everything they know > on medicine FAR older (in fact often ancient) than the doctors you oops > me on.< Too bad millions and millions of people died over the aeons, and still die, when "alternative" medicines are all that exist; too bad germ theory and hygiene and sulfa drugs and the rest of modern medicine have demonstrated conclusively that the history of "alternative" medicine has been almost completely the history of the placebo effect or blind luck. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Oops yourself you knuckle-head! Name-calling is inappropriate, but not unexpected. I'm confident that, if you are consistent in your beliefs, the next time you fall ill or break a bone or whatever, you'll call the monks and have them bend some energy your way through a mandala. Show us you have the courage of your convictions! On 11 May 2006 at 10:41, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man > being himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which > has framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To > say that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not > a worthy subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the > conversation.< There are those of us who want to have the conversation, but I, at least, don't see the good in trying to shout people down or engage in name- calling. On 11 May 2006 at 10:41, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Class structure is also framed of course in education.< Here, at least, we can agree, at least to some extent. You're still trying to use "class structure" in what I view as a too absolute sense. You seem to believe that there is something in non-degree artists that degreed artists either never had or have had trained out of them. You seem to believe that not knowing much about one's predecessors is a worthy thing; that the less one knows the more original one can be. That's wrong, of course, since if you don't know what's been done before you can have no notion of whether what one is doing is going to be taken as original by people who DO know what your predecessors did. Much of the lip-pursing head-shaking eye- rolling condescension of those who DO know stems from the fear that the ignorant are not merely ignorant but venal. On 11 May 2006 at 10:41, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we > don't dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion > about what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar talk > is to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your > way, dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose.< It's not missing the point, it's reflecting that Catullus, among others, did it better -- and long before. Not to mention the amusement in discovering that Bukowski's biggest fans have seldom heard of Catullus, and have almost never ready any, and even when they have, they don't have the contextualized awareness of Western literature to compare Catullus's place in Latin to Bukowski's in English. Part of the pleasure of being an educated person inheres in the joy of reflecting on connections among a wide variety of artists across different cultures through a long time line. Part of the pleasure of ignorance is that one can be certain one is right without having to do scarcely any work at all. Experience tells you which one is the higher pleasure. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 15:15:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: on elitism In-Reply-To: <44637B30.11712.9B5C9C1@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11-May-06, at 2:58 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: >> Marcus, how is that you can't believe all things are possible at >> once? << > > Because all things are not possible at once. That is nonsensical, I believe. I think that all things may be impossible, but surely not at the same time! In fact, I don't really believe that all things are not possible. Some things will never be not possible. > George Harry Bowering, Lives with a groaning dog. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 17:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 5/11 - 5/19 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Shining Lights, We have something to offer nearly every night this week, beginning tonight with the start of the 5-day long Poet=B9s-Theatre Festival. Please scroll dow= n for all the gory details of this fabulous week to come. Love, Your Friend the Poetry Project Thursday, May 11 - Monday, May 15, times vary Plays On Words: A Poet=B9s Theatre Festival =20 Co-produced by the Ontological-Hysteric Theater and The Poetry Project. Co-curated by Lee Ann Brown, Corina Copp and Tony Torn. The festival will feature small performances and staged readings of plays written across the genres, by poets and playwrights of great and emerging renown. Events will take place in the Ontological from Thursday through Sunday, (with satellite programming at the Bowery Poetry Club), and a culminating Monday program in the Parish Hall. Performance and verse will collide, as the Poetry Project and Richard Foreman's Ontological-Hysteric Theater finally collaborate. *Please scroll down for the detailed calendar of events... Wednesday, May 17, 8:00pm Stephen Burt & Michael Scharf =20 Stephen Burt's new book of poems is Parallel Play; his older book of poems is Popular Music. His poems have landed in the TLS, CHAIN and Jacket, among others, and he writes regularly for Boston Review, Yale Review, the New Yor= k Times Book Review, and other journals. He lives in St. Paul, Minnesota and proudly supports the Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party and the WNBA'= s Minnesota Lynx. Michael Scharf is the author of Telemachiad, V=E9rit=E9, and Fo= r Kid Rock/Total Freedom, forthcoming from Spectacular Books. His short play Antigone was performed at the Poet=B9s Theatre in San Francisco, in a production directed by Kevin Killian. Friday, May 19, 7:00pm Implicit/Complicit: Performance By My Invisible =20 Within the past year, Providence-based writers Popahna Brandes, Carolina Maugeri, and Miranda F. Mellis formed the string collaborative, My Invisible. Their recombinant sound ranges from pop, art rock, to ethereal chamber noir. Tonight's performance will be based on a song cycle-in-progress, and followed by a discussion of the band's collaborative process. My Invisible debuted in January as the opening act for Rebecca Gates at The Knitting Factory and has recently accompanied Anne Waldman at Providence's Downcity Poetry Series. "Implicit/Complicit" is a song on the band's eponymous first album (available at www.myinvisible.com). Popahna Brandes is the director of International Inkwell, a yearly writing workshop program in Montelieu, France.=A0Carolina Maugeri is currently writing a lyric sequence exploring images of children's street art in her hometown of Tokuyama, now Shunan-shi, Japan. Miranda F. Mellis is an editor at Encyclopedia (www.encyclopediaproject.org). Most recently her stories have appeared in Denver Quarterly and Fence. two great tastes that go great together PLAYS ON WORDS: A POETS-THEATER FESTIVAL curated by lee ann brown + corina copp + tony torn saint mark's church may 11th-15th 2006 2nd ave + 10th street nyc all shows 7pm @ the ontological theater unless otherwise noted If you pre-purchase your ticket online or over the phone get $2 off! That's a fantastic night of poetry & theater for the low, low price of $5!!= ! CODE: POETS http://www.ovationtix.com/trs/pr/573/prm/POETS - no service fee! Regular Door Price $7, $20 for FESTIVAL PASS FEATURING THEATER ARTISTS ACTORS AND DIRECTORS INCLUDING: lee ann brown + mallory catlett + anthony cerrato + dominic d'andrea + dave henderson + molly hickok + aaron rosenblum + carl hancock rux + brian snapp + pete simpson + angelica torn + tony torn + kate valk + patricia ybarra + elena zucker and more! THURSDAY MAY 11: A NIGHT OF MICRO-PLAYS! charles bernstein + anselm berrigan + randall david-cook + kelly copper + francesco canguillo + robert elstein + elise geither + nada gordon + may josephs + rachel loden + dana maisel + mary millsap + tom raworth + tom savage + hal sirowitz + anne waldman + catherine wing + opening night PARTY! =20 10:30 PM @ Bowery Poetry Club featuring Tuli Kupferberg's =B3Drinking Songs for Karl Marx=B2 FRIDAY MAY 12 WHERE THE STONES GATHER by brian kim stefans THE TOOTH FAIRY by charles borkhuis THE SOLUTION by david henderson SATURDAY MAY 13 ZOANTHELLA & ZOANTHINA: TRIBULATIONS OF THE LARVAL ANEMONE PRINCESSES by laynie brown MIRROR PLAY by carla harryman BLUE by julie patton SUNDAY MAY 14 A RETROSPECTIVE with bob holman and bob rosenthal NEO BENSHI by kevin killian and dodie bellamy MONDAY MAY 15 (8PM IN THE PARISH HALL) BONY-HANDED by reed bye THE MAIN CHANCE by corina copp PERFECT CALIFORNIA: A FAMILY AFFAIR by rachel levitsky RADIO ORPHAN: AN EXCERPT by chris stroffolino ECO-STRATO-STATIC by rodrigo toscano COSMIC NAUGHT by genya turovskaya HEAD WILL GET YOU TOGETHERNESS by jacqueline waters Spring Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Kyle Subject: Annabel Lee? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi All, Does anyone have the current contact information for Annabel Lee's Vehicle Editions? The info I found on their homepage http://www.vehicleeditions.com/ seems to no longer be active. Thanks, Kyle Kyle Schlesinger Cuneiform Press 769 Richmond Avenue Buffalo, New York 14222 USA tel.: 716.863.1099 e-mail: ks46@buffalo.edu http://www.cuneiformpress.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:01:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Minky Starshine Subject: Re: on elitism and obviousness In-Reply-To: <44637B30.11712.9B5C9C1@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am obviously ignorant. I thought poetic experimentation provided superheroic abilities to be at once alive and dead, flying and burrowing, skiing and sleeping, New York and Paris, virus and healthy, frictionless surface and perpetual motion--all at the same time. /Life...more mysterious since the day the great liberator came over me--the thought that life should be an experiment of knowers. F.Nietzsche, The Gay Science 1882 (Book IV, no 324)./ -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 5:58 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: on elitism On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Marcus, how is that you can't believe all things are possible at > once? << Because all things are not possible at once. You cannot be alive and dead, flying and burrowing, skiing and sleeping, all at once. You cannot be in New York and Paris at the same time. You cannot be dying of a virus and perfectly healthy at the same time. There is no frictionless surface and no perpetual motion machine and Mohammed Abatcha does not really have 34 million dollars to give you if you'll only send him a check for $50,000 to prove your bona fides. The notion that there are contradictions, ineluctable, inevitable contradictions, is obvious to the meanest amoeba -- why isn't it obvious to you? On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Is this really such a foreign idea to you?< Yes. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > In India it seems they maintain remnants of all their past. In the > middle of one of the fastest growing economies of "western" technologies they > also have hijras, a community of men who are eunuchs of self-inflicted > wounds, and these men are left over from the times of the khans.< I'll bet they're not the same people, though. You can find Bushites, perhaps the guy next to you at work, who fevently believe that the Iraq war is a righteous war -- are you committed to that war because they are? Propinquity is unpersuasive. The fact that someone believes in something is no guarantee that it's worth believing in. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Jesus Christ is well worshipped in the land of Microsoft and iPod > dear Marcus. Oops back to you sir.< You're the one writing on the computer claiming that mandalas are bending energy that no one can show the results of using, or even test for. The contradiction lies not in the fact that some people are religious and some are not and they live next door to each other; the contradiction lies in those who shout that they believe something that, if they really believed it, would make them forego the use of the medium in which they are shouting. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > What the fuck kind of world view are you attempting to accrue with > the thoughts you put forth?< The world in which we can make testable hypotheses -- and then test them, modify them, and test them again. Mere assertions of belief or fact are insufficient. Don't just tell me, show me. You think mandalas bend energy? Devise a theory of that energy, and a test to demonstrate the bending that is replicable. Until then, it's just more religious crap that enslaves people, I think deliberately, to slave for temporal powers for nonexistent supernatural rewards. In short, fraud. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Are you living under a rock that you don't actually know about the > vastly > growing "alternative" medicine culture in America? And guess what > Marcus? That "alternative" medicine culture is basing everything they know > on medicine FAR older (in fact often ancient) than the doctors you oops > me on.< Too bad millions and millions of people died over the aeons, and still die, when "alternative" medicines are all that exist; too bad germ theory and hygiene and sulfa drugs and the rest of modern medicine have demonstrated conclusively that the history of "alternative" medicine has been almost completely the history of the placebo effect or blind luck. On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Oops yourself you knuckle-head! Name-calling is inappropriate, but not unexpected. I'm confident that, if you are consistent in your beliefs, the next time you fall ill or break a bone or whatever, you'll call the monks and have them bend some energy your way through a mandala. Show us you have the courage of your convictions! On 11 May 2006 at 10:41, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > And the fact that that shock value was little more than the man > being himself is what needs to be examined. The class structure which > has framed literature is what the conversation COULD be about. To > say that this is not an interesting subject, or to say that this is not > a worthy subject is to say you really don't WANT to have the > conversation.< There are those of us who want to have the conversation, but I, at least, don't see the good in trying to shout people down or engage in name- calling. On 11 May 2006 at 10:41, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Class structure is also framed of course in education.< Here, at least, we can agree, at least to some extent. You're still trying to use "class structure" in what I view as a too absolute sense. You seem to believe that there is something in non-degree artists that degreed artists either never had or have had trained out of them. You seem to believe that not knowing much about one's predecessors is a worthy thing; that the less one knows the more original one can be. That's wrong, of course, since if you don't know what's been done before you can have no notion of whether what one is doing is going to be taken as original by people who DO know what your predecessors did. Much of the lip-pursing head-shaking eye- rolling condescension of those who DO know stems from the fear that the ignorant are not merely ignorant but venal. On 11 May 2006 at 10:41, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > It's easier though to dismiss Bukowski, isn't it? Because if we > don't dismiss him, then we might actually have to have a discussion > about what he really meant. To reduce him to his beer and his bar talk > is to miss the point on purpose, in my opinion. So have it your > way, dismiss him, miss the point, on purpose.< It's not missing the point, it's reflecting that Catullus, among others, did it better -- and long before. Not to mention the amusement in discovering that Bukowski's biggest fans have seldom heard of Catullus, and have almost never ready any, and even when they have, they don't have the contextualized awareness of Western literature to compare Catullus's place in Latin to Bukowski's in English. Part of the pleasure of being an educated person inheres in the joy of reflecting on connections among a wide variety of artists across different cultures through a long time line. Part of the pleasure of ignorance is that one can be certain one is right without having to do scarcely any work at all. Experience tells you which one is the higher pleasure. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Poetry Machine Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Poetry Machine A project by David Link Poetry Machine is a text generator based on semantic networks. Users can enter concepts that are meaningful to them or for which they expect an answer. Poetry Machine responds with a never ending stream of sentences that circulate around these words. Since these answers are not dependent on scripted answering modules that were written beforehand but are generated dynamically, they are always different and never repeat themselves. They are printed out on a projection screen and spoken out loudly by a text-to-speech system. The semantic information of Poetry Machine comes mainly from the internet. Autonomous "bots" continuously search the internet for concepts that are still unknown to the program and feed the resulting documents back into its database. Consequently, the content of the database and the output of the machine change over time. http://www.alpha60.de/poetrymachine/poetrymachine.html & a video which doesn't show much of the installation: http://framework.v2.nl/archive/archive/leaf/other/.xslt/nodenr-150802 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 00:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Plays on Words: First Night Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The first night of "Plays on Words," the poets theater festival at the Ontological Hysteric Theater in New York, was a delight for mind, ear, and eye. 22 short pieces were performed, providing a glimpse of 22 different approaches to writing and directing, a veritable primer for poets theater. The no-budget evening of imaginatively staged readings was filled with possibilities, which, if not always fully realized, was continually engaging. Tony Torn, Lee Ann Brown, and Corinna Copp are to be congratulated, and supported, for starting off what I hope will be an annual affair. I was glad to be a part of this: Leandra Ramm, a young and very talented singer, did a great job performing the weather aria from Ben Yarmolinsky and my "Blind Witness News." The show-stealer was surely four-year-old Miranda, daughter of Lee Ann and Tony, whose several appearance were nothing short of star turns. However, for me the real hit of the evening was Tony Torn himself, doing one brilliant piece of acting after another, from a great rendition of Gregory Corso in Tom Savage's amusing "Mouth Play" (directed by Mallory Catlet) to a scarily comic version of Richard Nixon in Rachel Loden's "A Quaker Meeting in Yorba Linda" (directed by David Henderson) to, finally, a tour-de-force in Kelly Cooper's "I'm doing fine," in which Torn provided several dozen different readings of the title line. Tony, really, you are doing fine. The festival continues tomorrow (Friday) -- and I have a chance for my big break. I will be playing the (small) part of Jason Robards opposite the real Kate Valk (playing herself) and Angelica Torn (playing Hannah Schygulla) in Brian Kim Stefan's short play "Were Stones Gather." Also on the bill: works by Charles Borkhuis and David Henderson. More info at http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/#poetstheater Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 21:16:11 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: PRINTERS/DISTRIBUTORS In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Backchannel the size of book, cover stock, page count, whether parfect bound or saddle stapled, and p[ress run of the title & I'll let you know. For distributors it depends on your mission and marking statement. I passed up Publishers Group West and Consortium and two university publishers because of particular stipulations that would have axed a substantial chunk of where our money comes from. Send some more info, if I can be helpful I will. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:18:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Pritchett Subject: Re: Announcing the New ELN (Poetry and the Religious Turn) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A respected forum since 1962 for new work in English literary studies, = ELN (English Language Notes) has undergone a change in editorship and an = extensive makeover as a biannual journal devoted exclusively to special = topics in all fields of literary and cultural studies. The new ELN hopes = to provide a unique forum for cutting-edge scholarly debate and exchange = in the humanities.=20 The Spring 2006 issue, "Literary History and The Religious Turn," is now = available at a special single-issue rate of $20. Focusing on the study = of literary history over the last decade, ELN 44.1 ranges from the = preoccupation among medievalists with "vernacular theology" to the = fascination with the topoi of conversion in postcolonial studies.=20 Of possible interest to readers of this list, ELN 44.1 also features a = section on "Innovative Poetry and the Question of Spirit," edited by = Patrick Pritchett, and with essays and poems from Elizabeth Robinson, = Andrew Joron, Peter O'Leary, and Fanny Howe.=20 For more information about upcoming issues, to view the latest CFP or = the current issue's full table of contents, or to subscribe, go to: = http://www.colorado.edu/English/eln/index.html To order this issue, mail a check to: English Language Notes University of Colorado Dept. of English UCB 226 Boulder, CO 80309 Or write to eln@colorado.edu. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:11:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Jig-Sound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry, i moved it. http://vispo.com/bc/qt is the url for the streaming QuickTime video describing the currently in-progress Jig-Sound interactive audio project I'm working on; there are links below the vid to interactive demos of the project-in-progress, and to a proposal i'm working up to hopefully get funding for this project. ja ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:01:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sabyasachi Sanyal Subject: On Marcus vs Conrad Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is hilarious to the point of..... well , funny :-) A few thoughts ::: On 11 May 2006 at 11:01, Craig Allen Conrad wrote: >> Marcus, how is that you can't believe all things are possible at >> once? << >Because all things are not possible at once. You cannot be alive and dead, >flying and burrowing, skiing and sleeping, all at once. You cannot be in >New York and Paris at the same time. You cannot be dying of a virus and >perfectly healthy at the same time. There is no frictionless surface and no >perpetual motion machine and Mohammed Abatcha does not really have >34 million dollars to give you if you'll only send him a check for $50,000 to >prove your bona fides. The notion that there are contradictions, ineluctable, >inevitable contradictions, is obvious to the meanest amoeba -- why isn't it >obvious to you? Simultaneously dead and alive : What'shis name ? That unfunny comedian ? Oh .. Andy Kaufman... Simultaneously flying and burrowing : I was. On a flight to Thailand, burrowing deep in to my handbag.... Simultaneously skiing and sleeping : Do anyone have any experience ? Curious here. I knew a somnambulist (my high school friend) who would ride bicycle in his sleep. Pity, we didn't have any snow. By the way, what does "Multiverse" theory has to offer on it ? Any Karl Sagan here ? Sir Hawiking ? >You're the one writing on the computer claiming that mandalas are bending >energy. Don't know about bending, but looking at one intensively, definitely makes you think thus to use up a lot of energy. >Too bad millions and millions of people died over the aeons, and still die, >when "alternative" medicines are all that exist; too bad germ theory and >hygiene and sulfa drugs and the rest of modern medicine have >demonstrated conclusively that the history of "alternative" medicine has >been almost completely the history of the placebo effect or blind luck. Let me get a bit seriouser about it. Well, I am not talking about alternative medicine, rather the source of such medicines. Serious research is being done and all biotech / pharma companies including, Glaxo, Ellie-lilly, pharmacia are doing intense research on plant products to isolate compounds that can be used as drugs for a variety of diseases including, arthritis, Obesity, diabetes, cardiomyopathy, cancer etc etc etc... Guess, from where the clues come ? The ancient practises of using such and such plant-juice for such an such ailment. Trust me, when I say this -- I am a molecular biologist by profession who has been working on such projects. As example you can look for the term "Guggulsterone" in google. The problem, with this kind of ancient knowledge is the distortion of the knowledge that has occurred over the centuries. Primary culprits were the inventors of malady-cures, who to protect their own interest and avoid competition would pass on the knowledge only to immediate family members and if such family members were not as smart as the originator, or more simply put-- morons, they would distort it not having the power of proper comprehension and this will amplify over the years. Best Sabyasachi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 12:05:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sabyasachi Sanyal Subject: For Marcus Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The hypolipidemic natural product guggulsterone acts as an antagonist of the bile acid receptor. Mol Endocrinol 2002 Jul;16(7):1590-7 Wu J, Xia C, Meier J, Li S, Hu X, Lala DS. Department of Biotechnology, Pharmacia Corp., St. Louis, Missouri 63198, USA. Ayurveda, the ancient Indian system of health care and medicine, has a well-organized materia medica in which plants form a dominant part. A key illustration of the exploitation of this knowledge toward the development of a modern drug is the isolation and characterization of two antihyperlipidemic compounds, Z-, and E-guggulsterone from the tree Commiphora mukul, the exudate of which has been traditionally used for mitigating lipid disorders. Here, we demonstrate that Z-guggulsterone and an analog, 80-574 currently in clinical trials, act as antagonists of the bile acid receptor (BAR), a member of the intracellular receptor superfamily. These compounds antagonize the activity of BAR in vitro, and in cell culture systems on promoters and endogenous target genes. In biochemical assays, they are able to displace coactivator peptides from the receptor in a dose-dependent manner. The mechanism by which they act as BAR antagonists is likely through their inability to recruit coactivator proteins, failure to release corepressor proteins from unliganded receptor, and ability to compete with BAR agonists to block coactivator recruitment. Our data suggest these compounds may mediate at least some of their effects via the BAR. PMID: 12089353 PubMed ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 07:04:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Sabyasachi Sanhal and logical fallacies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 12 May 2006 at 12:01, Sabyasachi Sanyal wrote: > Simultaneously dead and alive : > What'shis name ? That unfunny comedian ? Oh .. Andy Kaufman...< Subverted Support: it is not the case that Andy Kaufman (or Elvis, or Jimmy Hoffa, or Amelia Earhart, or Jim Morrison, or any of a number of other such cases) is really alive. > Simultaneously flying and burrowing : > I was. On a flight to Thailand, burrowing deep in to my > handbag.... Equivocation: using the same term in different ways. > Simultaneously skiing and sleeping : > Do anyone have any experience ? Curious here. I knew a somnambulist > (my high > school friend) who would ride bicycle in his sleep. Pity, we didn't > have any > snow. Hasty Generalization: On the basis of one somnambulist bicyclist we should abandon physics? > By the way, what does "Multiverse" theory has to offer on it ? Any > Karl Sagan here ? Sir Hawiking ? No simultaneity -- each timeline goes off on its own. > >You're the one writing on the computer claiming that mandalas are > bending energy. > Don't know about bending, but looking at one intensively, definitely > makes you think thus to use up a lot of energy.< Disingenuous: deliberately conflating two different uses of the term. > Let me get a bit seriouser about it. Well, I am not talking about > alternative medicine, rather the source of such medicines.< Just so -- at least here you admit you're not talking about what Conrad claimed, but about something different. That's progress, of a sort, I suppose, but still no support for Conrad's claim. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:24:55 +0530 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Hijras MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Aryanil, and CAConrad, have missed most of this conversation.. and//but.. CA, I have to disagree... In the > middle of one of the fastest growing economies of "western" technologies > they also > have hijras, a community of men who are eunuchs of self-inflicted wounds= , I think this is a rather gendercentric perspective or western appropriation.. to call them men or even to consider them male is to do harm.. I have never meet one, or corresponded with a hijras that does not deal with similar issues as western transgendered folks..in other words a penis or clitoris does not make a gendered person... and the self-inflicted wound you talk about., i.e. castration is illegal, and many are going for western reassignment surgery, and true there maybe some who go though ritual castration, The ones I have corresponded with have either not had surgery or gone to Medical Doctors.. Aryanil I agree with you.. Hijras are not considered "auspicious" in marriage ceremonies > in many parts of India. yes only in select areas and in many areas, the word Hijras is not even used. this could be due to the many different languages and dialects spoken in India... the only universal is on Indian pass ports where they can choose a third gender or "eunuch". but mostly they are reduced to begging and prostitution... > It was attempt to look at the world with "asexual" (unindoctrinated) eyes= . Aryanil, this is where I have to digress a bit from the "asexual" label that may have been put on Hijras or india's "legal eunuchs." India is a heterosexual economy and like most heterosexual economies, the role one takes on is usually within this paradigm.. for this reason, many "legal eunuchs" get married, have dreams of heterosexual relationships, date.. so on and so on. since they see themselves as female... and the sexual economy here is rather limited.. so, this is the options open to them.. just to clarify a bit... kari --=20 transSubmutation http://transdada3.blogspot.com/ NEW!!! obedience Poetry Factory School. 2005. 86 pages, perfect bound, 6.5x9. ISBN: 1-60001-044-X $12 / $10 direct order Description: obedience, the fourth book by kari edwards, offers a rhythmic disruption of the relative real, a progressive troubling of the phenomenal world, from gross material to the infinitesimal. The book's intention is a transformative mantric dismantling of being. http://www.factoryschool.org/pubs/heretical/index.html http://www.spdbooks.org/SearchResults.asp?AuthorTitle=3Dedwards%2C+kari ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: poetics@BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Updated List Policies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics@buffalo.edu Poetics Subscription Requests: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is checked about once per week. 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Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 06:15:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Larry Eigner, Jules Olitski, Brian Wilson on "Stoning the Devil" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New on "Stoning the Devil" (www.adamfieled.blogspot.com): --"Weakness-as-Strength: Larry Eigner & Marcel Proust" --"Da Vinci's "St.John" & Brian Wilson's "Pet Sounds": Pointing Upwards" --"Catching a Random Buzz: Jules Olitski" --"Tennyson vs. Browing, Cure vs. Smiths" --"Post-Avant Poets as the Village Green Preservation Society" & much, much more... --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:11:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Lowther Subject: How Stuff Works - language harm Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wednesday May 17th at 8 PM the Atlanta Poets Group presents the next iteration of LANGUAGE HARM our theme this time around is H O W S T U F F W O R K S & we are pleased to note that there will be two special guests Allison Rentz & Lori Guarisco & we will bring you the usual varietry of monophons and polyphons (single & multiply voiced poems) and who knows just what else as always this takes place at eyedrum and costs $4 for those of you who are not members (members get in free to everything all year) see www.eyedrum.org for further details directions and the full schedule of events our special guests, Allison --- www.allisonrentz.com & Lori --- www.shoalcreekstudio.com our inert & frozen website www.atlantapoetsgroup.net (at least it has some poems!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:50:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Hijras In-Reply-To: A<6968f59e0605120454t69bcfa0al7687d55735d27d9b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << -AM KE-Aryanil, this is where I have to digress a bit from the "asexual" label that may have been put on Hijras or india's "legal eunuchs." India is a heterosexual economy and like most heterosexual economies, the role one takes on is usually within this paradigm.. for this reason, many "legal eunuchs" get married, have dreams of heterosexual relationships, date.. so on and so on. since they see themselves as female... and the sexual economy here is rather limited.. so, this is the options open to them.. just to clarify a bit... kari>> Kari Well I'm not trying to make a statement about the hijras or the transexual /transgendered people of India in the above line. I talked about my last verse-collection, and a series of poems it contains. The "asexual" viewpoint is my own; and in those poems, I try to see, primarily a materialistic and a grossly sexually-biased or tinted world, through the eyes of two companions - "Bimal" and "Bimalaa". Whether they can be seen as hijras or transexual or heterosexual people or even as Indians, is quite up to the reader. The "asexual" notion, as I had mentioned, was derived from the Sanskrit word "kleeb" - used to describe ancient Indian eunuchs, or for that matter anything that is "genderless". For example a fruit, a tree, a leaf - ancient Indian metaphysical texts refer to many living objects as "kleeb" or genderless while others have either female or male "organ"s. The "hijra" problems you refer to, are indeed real, current and more recent in history. I did try to reflect on those a little bit - like Bimal and Bimalaa live in a "hermaphrodite colony", many of their friends make their living as "prostitutes" and/or "beggers", but at the same time, I tried to transcend the social issues to create a vision that is "kleeb", that tries to fetch a little truth from objects and things that we normally miss out on, when we look at them as "males" or "females". Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Buk & BC--thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for all those responses re: buk and bc...interesting range of views a couple of points 1 does anyone on the listserv read bc? hell yes. I recently read some closely to try to figure out just what he's doing. 2. I never heard Waits claim buk as a mentor, but he does say he likes buk's writing 3. memorable poems--one of my ideas on these guys is that they don't give us those poetic peaks..however I'll offer the 1 poem from each that I recall very favorably for buk it's Miriam ... don't ask why, but it stands out and others don't...it's in the orange cover book i think..... burning in water...etc... for bc there's a poem in which the persona is reviewing his life...but rather than reviewing it from the vantage of a 50-60-70 yr old it's from a much younger age, something like 7 or 9...I don't know the title or book, but that one i do remember as an interesting idea, unique take on the 'gold watch' tyhpe speech and finally. . . I completely agree, muff diving is best done when sober, esp if you care about impressing the recipient favorably--then again, all sex is best when senses are not muted.... charlie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like that! And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I don't have any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been dead for TWELVE YEARS!) It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and his loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you know what I mean? Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've gone onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course you don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, but to say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make such summations is what I question. Which brings me to Joseph. Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone" who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make it very clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not only do I say that I read them but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me reread the poems with them. Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv you claim that I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very ones who have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that we get Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair of anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to 100 pages of "excellent" work. 100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says in that book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls "excellent" don't you think? Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but as these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea that ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I "dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks! Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:43:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Hijras MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kari & Aryanil, my information on hijras comes from a few sources, all questionable. And no, I have not ever met a hijra, so I base it on the sources. Zia Jaffery's book THE INVISIBLES for one. Which I LOVED reading. But, must admit that when I was working at Giovanni's Room Bookshop at the time of that book's publication, there were trans-activists I know who would FREAK OUT about that book. They HATED IT! In fact they hated it so much that I actually hid the fact that I liked it. While I admit that I hid the fact that I liked the book, I never once by the way pretended to have an opinion one way or the other to them. Just to make that clear. Meaning I just never discussed it. They discussed it however, and based most of their hatred for the book on the hatred for it by an Indian-born trans-activist friend of theirs, whose name I forget and probably would butcher if I tried to spell it here. But the gist of the hatred I gathered was Jaffery's sensationalized version of what hijras lives are really like. That for one, she barely mentions the brutality they face in some parts of India. But still, I liked the book. I liked it because it WOWED me, opened up this whole world the likes of which I had never encountered. You know what I mean? To be honest I kind of sensationalized them myself maybe by romanticizing their world a bit too much. Of course I kept thinking to myself, Hmm, how could I BE in their world and still keep my balls? Anyway, the book captured my attention in more than one way. Also, there was a documentary on India I saw which kind of disappointed me because it wound up sounding more like a travel film than an actual documentary if you know what I mean, and at one point a small group of hijras was filmed outside a wedding. And the narrator made them sound EVEN MORE sensational that even Zia Jaffery, and talked about the networks the hijras have to find out when weddings take place so they can come, sing, and receive money. Zia Jaffery hints at the hermaphrodites as I recall. And makes them to be the most auspicious. BUT LET ME SAY TOO that you are very right to point out my gender pronoun choice of "he." But at the same time there are no hijras (as far as I know) who were biological females. Maybe I'm wrong though. And this is not to dismiss my "he" usage so much as to explain. Having worked in the gay, lesbian, bi, trans community for almost seven years, I'm well aware of how important pronouns are for many people. The cover of Jaffery's book has a still from a documentary about hijras that I still have yet to see. Maybe that film would shed better light? Has anyone seen this? CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:38:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: labels for the labler In-Reply-To: <44643379.2945.C85A88F@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Astonishing Humorlesssness: your comments below Astonishingly Ugly Additude: Your statement in that first reply to Conrad, that you "hoped" Natural Selection would weed out the sort of people you find illogical (by the way, does Marcus know that whatever C.A. might feel about Eastern spiritual consciousness versus Western, that he has celebrated Western *secular* consciousness in the form of Benjamin's Franklin's spirit of Invention, & did some sort of project about B.F. that was shown in a Philadelphia museum?--bucking the trend of what D.H. Lawrence, William Carlos Williams, Melville, and others have said about the lighting rod man? ____________________ (necessary full disclosure--Marcus tends to pop up with harsh comments about things I post) --- Marcus Bales wrote: > On 12 May 2006 at 12:01, Sabyasachi Sanyal wrote: > > Simultaneously dead and alive : > > What'shis name ? That unfunny comedian ? Oh .. > Andy Kaufman...< > > Subverted Support: it is not the case that Andy > Kaufman (or Elvis, or > Jimmy Hoffa, or Amelia Earhart, or Jim Morrison, or > any of a > number of other such cases) is really alive. > > > Simultaneously flying and burrowing : > > I was. On a flight to Thailand, burrowing deep in > to my > > handbag.... > > Equivocation: using the same term in different ways. > > > Simultaneously skiing and sleeping : > > Do anyone have any experience ? Curious here. I > knew a somnambulist > > (my high > > school friend) who would ride bicycle in his > sleep. Pity, we didn't > > have any > > snow. > > Hasty Generalization: On the basis of one > somnambulist bicyclist we should abandon physics? > > > By the way, what does "Multiverse" theory has to > offer on it ? Any > > Karl Sagan here ? Sir Hawiking ? > > No simultaneity -- each timeline goes off on its > own. > > > >You're the one writing on the computer claiming > that mandalas are > > bending energy. > > > Don't know about bending, but looking at one > intensively, definitely > > makes you think thus to use up a lot of energy.< > > Disingenuous: deliberately conflating two different > uses of the term. > > > Let me get a bit seriouser about it. Well, I am > not talking about > > alternative medicine, rather the source of such > medicines.< > > Just so -- at least here you admit you're not > talking about what Conrad > claimed, but about something different. That's > progress, of a sort, I > suppose, but still no support for Conrad's claim. > > Marcus > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:43:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: reJennifer Bartlett Subject: Brooklyn Housing Position Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed We are looking for someone to "house-sit" our apartment from July 4- July 24 in a nice, fun part of Brooklyn. We have a 2 bedroom on the first floor with a yard. Respsonsibilities include feeding a cat, bringing in mail, and possibly moving car for alternate side parking. We will be charging a very small fee to cover electicity ect., and a deposit. If the house is clean & the cat's alive the deposit will be happily returned! Email me, Jennifer _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:42:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Submissions for Blackbox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, Well, now that I'm nearly finished with the Spring semester's obligations (final exams, essays, annual report, committee reports, make-up exams, student whining, etc.), I can finally devote some time to Blackbox' spring gallery. The submission period is now open, and will close on May 31. I should be able to include writers/visual artists in the new gallery. Please be certain to follow the submission guidelines on the Blackbox page. As always, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Thank you in advance for your contributions and, of course, much gratitude to all of you who have supported Blackbox in the past. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com SPDbooks.org Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:47:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Submissions for Blackbox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, Well, now that I'm nearly finished with the Spring semester's obligations (final exams, essays, annual report, committee reports, make-up exams, student whining, etc.), I can finally devote some time to Blackbox' spring gallery. The submission period is now open, and will close on May 31. I should be able to include ten writers/visual artists in the new gallery. Please be certain to follow the submission guidelines on the Blackbox page. As always, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Thank you in advance for your contributions and, of course, much gratitude to all of you who have supported Blackbox in the past. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com SPDbooks.org Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:47:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve potter Subject: Wandering Hermit # 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hey Folks, Wanted to let you all know that The Wandering Hermit Review # 2 is on the way! It's gained forty or fifty pages and a stylin' heavyweight, glossy cover since issue 1 and is lookin' pretty sweet, if we do say so ourselves! One of these days, soon very soon, we’ll get around to updating the website. For those of you in the Seattle area, we’ll be having a reading at Richard Hugo House on Monday, May 22nd. The reading will start at 7:30 and feature Seattle area contributors to the issue. Much thanks to Richard Hugo House for co-sponsoring the event! Writers expected to read include: Matt Briggs, Eben Eldridge, Jonathan Evison, Harvey Goldner, Tom Hansen, David Hecker, David Horowitz, Paul Hunter, David Christopher LaTerre, Stacey Levine, Steven Lohse, Priscilla Long, Martin Marriott, Jesse Minkert, John Olson, MaryLou Sanelli, Monica Schley, Stephanie Skura, Bill White and Maged Zaher. Please feel free to help spread the word! Best wishes, Steve Potter The Wandering Hermit Review editor@wanderinghermit.com http://www.wanderinghermit.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:58:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sartre and Genet at one point said that Bukowski was America's greatest living writer--for a long time he was much better known in the land of his birth, Germany, and in France than in the USA. (There's the book & film SHAKESPEARE NEVER DID THIS abt Bukowski's triumphal return to his German hometown--he wdn't serve in WW2 as proud of his German heritage.) Bukowski's recognized as a writer in the line of Hemingway as well as Celine (who interestingly enough both died on the same day). I.E. Bukowski is recognized as Literature--by some Literary Giants--which is what he wrote for--to be up there with his beloved "Hem" and "Dost"-- He's also a Celebrity and a Counter Culture hero--I am sure he must have made the pages of People magazine at some point-- The most interesting experience I ever had regarding Bukowski was abt five years ago in an outpatient program for addict/alcoholics. This was made up of both genders, Black and White people and working class and below (people on SSI-disability etc). After a certain point in the program one of the two counselors decided that one day a week we wd watch a movie dealing with alcoholism or drug addiction and talk about it in relation with things we were learning about in (recovery. One fine afternoon the movie we were going to see was BARFLY--based on Bukowski's life and work, with a script written by him. The counselor asked if anyone had heard of this guy Bukwswki--I said yes and talked to her a few minutes--she said after the film and discussion--to give a little tlkl re the poet--but first let everyone see the film and discuss it in terms of recovery. No one expected much from the films we saw--how real is Hollywood going to get abt addiction and alcoholism anyway? What seems shocking in the Bukowski books is pretty routine among the alkie set, the lighter side of the greater darkness just a few steps further on. The guy on the screen is just another alcoholic asshole like hundreds everyone has known and been themselves often enough. The poetry angle that gives some hope is a familiar story--bars are full of people who are would be stars of song and stage, poetry and music, painting and all sorts of arts. People kept fidgeting--the movie was painfully dull! After the film everyone agreed it had been too fake, too glamorized and too sentimental. But then it was a Hollywood film! What do you expect? After the critique came the recovery part-- Then the counselor announced I would "share about the author". Everybody's interested--one of their own will give them the scoop. I talked a while --told some anecdotes and what I knew of Bukowski and his books--i like telling stories so got caught up in it--and people started laughing and having a grand old time. You start telling stories abt an alcoholic from an addict/alcoholic point of view to a room full of the same--and it can get pretty hilarious. Things straight people and "normies" wd never think of, angles on the angles, labyrinths of the labyrinths, the marvels of bullshit the alcoholic/addict mind can concoct. Afterwards I was hoping maybe some of my peers wd be interested in the books and said the library had a lot of them. A bunch of voices went up--no man, we want you to keep telling us stories! Fuck that stupid guy in the motherfuckin movie! Fuck the movies! Just tell stories every week! And I thought we had it clear the guy in the movie isnt the same as the guy in the books! I mean that in real life he's a Writer--along with all the rest of it--still a Writer--one of the few who writes of all this as the Real Deal . . . (or the purported real deal--as they say--angles on the angles!) My bad! CA--maybe you missed it--but before I had mentioned there is already a very good Bukowski anthology--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER edited by John Martin (NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) it is arranged chronologically not by dates of the writing, but by place in the writer's life the pieces--prose and poetry--are writing about--so constructs a form of memoir-- Thank you to Gwen and Allison for their letters--and for the latter's point that sexism unlike racism seems to be to some degree tolerated on this list--sadly this is time after time shown to be true-- Anne Vitale made I thought the best point abt Bukwoski--that he was a committed writer. He worked his ass off, to the end. Wrote for years in obsucirty while working at the Post Office--and labored away in skin magazines while being lauded abroad and ignored a good deal at home. He was an alcoholic asshole no doubt abt it and charming also as alcoholics can be and his attitudes towards women compounded by alcoholsim could be pretty hideous--(and not unlike hundreds of men i have known)--but then a good number of the most poltically correct and self righteously ethical people i have met have often turned out to be monsters of one form or another also-- I am still wondering since it's often asserted that Billy Collins, Bukowski and Charles Bernstein each have written recognizable ouevres but not memorable poems what they might have in common? (Besides the letters "C B/ BC" in their initials) >From: Craig Allen Conrad >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT > >Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) > > >Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like that! >And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I don't have >any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. > >Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. > >Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but >more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way >are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's >no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been >dead for TWELVE YEARS!) > >It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about >his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and his >loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS >this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of >total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you know what >I mean? > >Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've gone >onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, >but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his >work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course you >don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, but to >say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make >such summations is what I question. > >Which brings me to Joseph. >Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone" >who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who >knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. > >Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are >referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make it very >clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not only do I say that I read >them >but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me reread >the poems with them. > >Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv you claim that >I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very ones who >have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that we >get >Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair of >anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to >100 pages of "excellent" work. > >100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says in that >book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines >worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only >attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying >something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die >with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls >"excellent" don't you think? > > >Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but as >these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, >and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea that >ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I >"dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because >I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks! >Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) > > >My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, >CAConrad > >CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >restrained...." >--William Blake >for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:08:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable great story. what is wrong with "recognizable oeuvres" over=20 and above "memorable poems"? aren't we beyond=20 fetishizing "the poem" by now? At 3:58 PM -0500 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > Sartre and Genet at one point said that=20 >Bukowski was America's greatest living=20 >writer--for a long time he was much better known=20 >in the land of his birth, Germany, and in France=20 >than in the USA. (There's the book & film=20 >SHAKESPEARE NEVER DID THIS abt Bukowski's=20 >triumphal return to his German hometown--he=20 >wdn't serve in WW2 as proud of his German=20 >heritage.) Bukowski's recognized as a writer in=20 >the line of Hemingway as well as Celine (who=20 >interestingly enough both died on the same day). > I.E. Bukowski is recognized as=20 >Literature--by some Literary Giants--which is=20 >what he wrote for--to be up there with his=20 >beloved "Hem" and "Dost"-- > He's also a Celebrity and a Counter=20 >Culture hero--I am sure he must have made the=20 >pages of People magazine at some point-- > The most interesting experience I ever had=20 >regarding Bukowski was abt five years ago in an=20 >outpatient program for addict/alcoholics. This=20 >was made up of both genders, Black and White=20 >people and working class and below (people on=20 >SSI-disability etc). After a certain point in=20 >the program one of the two counselors decided=20 >that one day a week we wd watch a movie dealing=20 >with alcoholism or drug addiction and talk about=20 >it in relation with things we were learning=20 >about in (recovery. One fine afternoon the=20 >movie we were going to see was BARFLY--based on=20 >Bukowski's life and work, with a script written=20 >by him. The counselor asked if anyone had heard=20 >of this guy Bukwswki--I said yes and talked to=20 >her a few minutes--she said after the film and=20 >discussion--to give a little tlkl re the=20 >poet--but first let everyone see the film and=20 >discuss it in terms of recovery. > No one expected much from the films we=20 >saw--how real is Hollywood going to get abt=20 >addiction and alcoholism anyway? What seems=20 >shocking in the Bukowski books is pretty routine=20 >among the alkie set, the lighter side of the=20 >greater darkness just a few steps further on.=20 >The guy on the screen is just another alcoholic=20 >asshole like hundreds everyone has known and=20 >been themselves often enough. The poetry angle=20 >that gives some hope is a familiar story--bars=20 >are full of people who are would be stars of=20 >song and stage, poetry and music, painting and=20 >all sorts of arts. People kept fidgeting--the=20 >movie was painfully dull! After the film=20 >everyone agreed it had been too fake, too=20 >glamorized and too sentimental. But then it was=20 >a Hollywood film! What do you expect? > After the critique came the recovery part-- > Then the counselor announced I would=20 >"share about the author". Everybody's=20 >interested--one of their own will give them the=20 >scoop. I talked a while --told some anecdotes=20 >and what I knew of Bukowski and his books--i=20 >like telling stories so got caught up in it--and=20 >people started laughing and having a grand old=20 >time. You start telling stories abt an=20 >alcoholic from an addict/alcoholic point of view=20 >to a room full of the same--and it can get=20 >pretty hilarious. Things straight people and=20 >"normies" wd never think of, angles on the=20 >angles, labyrinths of the labyrinths, the=20 >marvels of bullshit the alcoholic/addict mind=20 >can concoct. > Afterwards I was hoping maybe some of=20 >my peers wd be interested in the books and said=20 >the library had a lot of them. A bunch of=20 >voices went up--no man, we want you to keep=20 >telling us stories! Fuck that stupid guy in the=20 >motherfuckin movie! Fuck the movies! Just tell=20 >stories every week! > And I thought we had it clear the guy in=20 >the movie isnt the same as the guy in the books!=20 >I mean that in real life he's a Writer--along=20 >with all the rest of it--still a Writer--one of=20 >the few who writes of all this as the Real Deal=20 >. . . (or the purported real deal--as they=20 >say--angles on the angles!) > My bad! > CA--maybe you missed it--but before I=20 >had mentioned there is already a very good=20 >Bukowski anthology--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A=20 >CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER edited by John Martin=20 >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) it is arranged=20 >chronologically not by dates of the writing, but=20 >by place in the writer's life the pieces--prose=20 >and poetry--are writing about--so constructs a=20 >form of memoir-- > Thank you to Gwen and Allison for their=20 >letters--and for the latter's point that sexism=20 >unlike racism seems to be to some degree=20 >tolerated on this list--sadly this is time after=20 >time shown to be true-- > Anne Vitale made I thought the best point=20 >abt Bukwoski--that he was a committed writer.=20 >He worked his ass off, to the end. Wrote for=20 >years in obsucirty while working at the Post=20 >Office--and labored away in skin magazines while=20 >being lauded abroad and ignored a good deal at=20 >home. He was an alcoholic asshole no doubt abt=20 >it and charming also as alcoholics can be and=20 >his attitudes towards women compounded by=20 >alcoholsim could be pretty hideous--(and not=20 >unlike hundreds of men i have known)--but then a=20 >good number of the most poltically correct and=20 >self righteously ethical people i have met have=20 >often turned out to be monsters of one form or=20 >another also-- > I am still wondering since it's often=20 >asserted that Billy Collins, Bukowski and=20 >Charles Bernstein each have written recognizable=20 >ouevres but not memorable poems what they might=20 >have in common? >(Besides the letters "C B/ BC" in their initials) > > > > >>From: Craig Allen Conrad >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT >> >>Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) >> >> >>Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like that! >>And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I don't hav= e >>any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. >> >>Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. >> >>Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but >>more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way >>are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's >>no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been >>dead for TWELVE YEARS!) >> >>It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about >>his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and his >>loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS >>this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of >>total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you know what >>I mean? >> >>Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've gone >>onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, >>but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his >>work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course you >>don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, but t= o >>say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make >>such summations is what I question. >> >>Which brings me to Joseph. >>Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone" >>who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who >>knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. >> >>Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are >>referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make it very >>clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not=20 >>only do I say that I read them >>but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me reread >>the poems with them. >> >>Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv you claim tha= t >>I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very ones who >>have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that we g= et >>Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair of >>anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to >>100 pages of "excellent" work. >> >>100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says in that >>book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines >>worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only >>attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying >>something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die >>with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls >>"excellent" don't you think? >> >> >>Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but as >>these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, >>and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea that >>ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I >>"dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because >>I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks! >>Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) >> >> >>My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, >>CAConrad >> >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >>restrained...." >>--William Blake >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) >> >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don=92t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN=20 >Search!=20 >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:07:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline aren't we beyond fetishizing "the poem" by now? pretty much, but now 'we' fetishize the poet. xoxo, On 5/12/06, Maria Damon wrote: > > great story. > what is wrong with "recognizable oeuvres" over > and above "memorable poems"? aren't we beyond > fetishizing "the poem" by now? > > At 3:58 PM -0500 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > Sartre and Genet at one point said that > >Bukowski was America's greatest living > >writer--for a long time he was much better known > >in the land of his birth, Germany, and in France > >than in the USA. (There's the book & film > >SHAKESPEARE NEVER DID THIS abt Bukowski's > >triumphal return to his German hometown--he > >wdn't serve in WW2 as proud of his German > >heritage.) Bukowski's recognized as a writer in > >the line of Hemingway as well as Celine (who > >interestingly enough both died on the same day). > > I.E. Bukowski is recognized as > >Literature--by some Literary Giants--which is > >what he wrote for--to be up there with his > >beloved "Hem" and "Dost"-- > > He's also a Celebrity and a Counter > >Culture hero--I am sure he must have made the > >pages of People magazine at some point-- > > The most interesting experience I ever had > >regarding Bukowski was abt five years ago in an > >outpatient program for addict/alcoholics. This > >was made up of both genders, Black and White > >people and working class and below (people on > >SSI-disability etc). After a certain point in > >the program one of the two counselors decided > >that one day a week we wd watch a movie dealing > >with alcoholism or drug addiction and talk about > >it in relation with things we were learning > >about in (recovery. One fine afternoon the > >movie we were going to see was BARFLY--based on > >Bukowski's life and work, with a script written > >by him. The counselor asked if anyone had heard > >of this guy Bukwswki--I said yes and talked to > >her a few minutes--she said after the film and > >discussion--to give a little tlkl re the > >poet--but first let everyone see the film and > >discuss it in terms of recovery. > > No one expected much from the films we > >saw--how real is Hollywood going to get abt > >addiction and alcoholism anyway? What seems > >shocking in the Bukowski books is pretty routine > >among the alkie set, the lighter side of the > >greater darkness just a few steps further on. > >The guy on the screen is just another alcoholic > >asshole like hundreds everyone has known and > >been themselves often enough. The poetry angle > >that gives some hope is a familiar story--bars > >are full of people who are would be stars of > >song and stage, poetry and music, painting and > >all sorts of arts. People kept fidgeting--the > >movie was painfully dull! After the film > >everyone agreed it had been too fake, too > >glamorized and too sentimental. But then it was > >a Hollywood film! What do you expect? > > After the critique came the recovery part-- > > Then the counselor announced I would > >"share about the author". Everybody's > >interested--one of their own will give them the > >scoop. I talked a while --told some anecdotes > >and what I knew of Bukowski and his books--i > >like telling stories so got caught up in it--and > >people started laughing and having a grand old > >time. You start telling stories abt an > >alcoholic from an addict/alcoholic point of view > >to a room full of the same--and it can get > >pretty hilarious. Things straight people and > >"normies" wd never think of, angles on the > >angles, labyrinths of the labyrinths, the > >marvels of bullshit the alcoholic/addict mind > >can concoct. > > Afterwards I was hoping maybe some of > >my peers wd be interested in the books and said > >the library had a lot of them. A bunch of > >voices went up--no man, we want you to keep > >telling us stories! Fuck that stupid guy in the > >motherfuckin movie! Fuck the movies! Just tell > >stories every week! > > And I thought we had it clear the guy in > >the movie isnt the same as the guy in the books! > >I mean that in real life he's a Writer--along > >with all the rest of it--still a Writer--one of > >the few who writes of all this as the Real Deal > >. . . (or the purported real deal--as they > >say--angles on the angles!) > > My bad! > > CA--maybe you missed it--but before I > >had mentioned there is already a very good > >Bukowski anthology--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A > >CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER edited by John Martin > >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) it is arranged > >chronologically not by dates of the writing, but > >by place in the writer's life the pieces--prose > >and poetry--are writing about--so constructs a > >form of memoir-- > > Thank you to Gwen and Allison for their > >letters--and for the latter's point that sexism > >unlike racism seems to be to some degree > >tolerated on this list--sadly this is time after > >time shown to be true-- > > Anne Vitale made I thought the best point > >abt Bukwoski--that he was a committed writer. > >He worked his ass off, to the end. Wrote for > >years in obsucirty while working at the Post > >Office--and labored away in skin magazines while > >being lauded abroad and ignored a good deal at > >home. He was an alcoholic asshole no doubt abt > >it and charming also as alcoholics can be and > >his attitudes towards women compounded by > >alcoholsim could be pretty hideous--(and not > >unlike hundreds of men i have known)--but then a > >good number of the most poltically correct and > >self righteously ethical people i have met have > >often turned out to be monsters of one form or > >another also-- > > I am still wondering since it's often > >asserted that Billy Collins, Bukowski and > >Charles Bernstein each have written recognizable > >ouevres but not memorable poems what they might > >have in common? > >(Besides the letters "C B/ BC" in their initials) > > > > > > > > > >>From: Craig Allen Conrad > >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? > >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT > >> > >>Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) > >> > >> > >>Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like that= ! > >>And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I > don't have > >>any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. > >> > >>Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. > >> > >>Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but > >>more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way > >>are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's > >>no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been > >>dead for TWELVE YEARS!) > >> > >>It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about > >>his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and his > >>loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS > >>this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of > >>total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you know what > >>I mean? > >> > >>Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've gon= e > >>onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, > >>but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his > >>work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course yo= u > >>don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, bu= t > to > >>say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make > >>such summations is what I question. > >> > >>Which brings me to Joseph. > >>Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone" > >>who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who > >>knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. > >> > >>Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are > >>referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make it very > >>clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not > >>only do I say that I read them > >>but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me reread > >>the poems with them. > >> > >>Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv you claim > that > >>I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very ones who > >>have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that w= e > get > >>Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair of > >>anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to > >>100 pages of "excellent" work. > >> > >>100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says in that > >>book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines > >>worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only > >>attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying > >>something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die > >>with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls > >>"excellent" don't you think? > >> > >> > >>Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but a= s > >>these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, > >>and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea that > >>ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I > >>"dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because > >>I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks! > >>Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) > >> > >> > >>My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, > >>CAConrad > >> > >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > >>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > >>restrained...." > >>--William Blake > >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > >>(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN > >Search! > >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > --=20 http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 16:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I think people misunderstood me--i am just having a sense of humor abt all this discussion---"what do billy collins and bukowski have in common"--and then people bashing one or the other--or sanctifying one or the other--when they have nothing in common other than being very popular-- i think what is being fetishized is arguing--perhaps-- forgive me, i simply saw some humor in the situation-- but did once read a very long piece in american poetry review defending bernstein agaisnt the charge that he hadnt produced a memorable poem-- personally i find this humorous-- it can and has been said of any number of artists in any number of fields-- just as there are people known forever as "one hit wonders"-- believe me, i'm not fetishizing anything--i'm just having a laugh on a friday afternoon when its rainy-- >From: kevin thurston >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in >Common? >Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:07:31 -0400 > >aren't we beyond fetishizing "the poem" by now? > >pretty much, but now 'we' fetishize the poet. > >xoxo, > >On 5/12/06, Maria Damon wrote: >> >>great story. >>what is wrong with "recognizable oeuvres" over >>and above "memorable poems"? aren't we beyond >>fetishizing "the poem" by now? >> >>At 3:58 PM -0500 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >> > Sartre and Genet at one point said that >> >Bukowski was America's greatest living >> >writer--for a long time he was much better known >> >in the land of his birth, Germany, and in France >> >than in the USA. (There's the book & film >> >SHAKESPEARE NEVER DID THIS abt Bukowski's >> >triumphal return to his German hometown--he >> >wdn't serve in WW2 as proud of his German >> >heritage.) Bukowski's recognized as a writer in >> >the line of Hemingway as well as Celine (who >> >interestingly enough both died on the same day). >> > I.E. Bukowski is recognized as >> >Literature--by some Literary Giants--which is >> >what he wrote for--to be up there with his >> >beloved "Hem" and "Dost"-- >> > He's also a Celebrity and a Counter >> >Culture hero--I am sure he must have made the >> >pages of People magazine at some point-- >> > The most interesting experience I ever had >> >regarding Bukowski was abt five years ago in an >> >outpatient program for addict/alcoholics. This >> >was made up of both genders, Black and White >> >people and working class and below (people on >> >SSI-disability etc). After a certain point in >> >the program one of the two counselors decided >> >that one day a week we wd watch a movie dealing >> >with alcoholism or drug addiction and talk about >> >it in relation with things we were learning >> >about in (recovery. One fine afternoon the >> >movie we were going to see was BARFLY--based on >> >Bukowski's life and work, with a script written >> >by him. The counselor asked if anyone had heard >> >of this guy Bukwswki--I said yes and talked to >> >her a few minutes--she said after the film and >> >discussion--to give a little tlkl re the >> >poet--but first let everyone see the film and >> >discuss it in terms of recovery. >> > No one expected much from the films we >> >saw--how real is Hollywood going to get abt >> >addiction and alcoholism anyway? What seems >> >shocking in the Bukowski books is pretty routine >> >among the alkie set, the lighter side of the >> >greater darkness just a few steps further on. >> >The guy on the screen is just another alcoholic >> >asshole like hundreds everyone has known and >> >been themselves often enough. The poetry angle >> >that gives some hope is a familiar story--bars >> >are full of people who are would be stars of >> >song and stage, poetry and music, painting and >> >all sorts of arts. People kept fidgeting--the >> >movie was painfully dull! After the film >> >everyone agreed it had been too fake, too >> >glamorized and too sentimental. But then it was >> >a Hollywood film! What do you expect? >> > After the critique came the recovery part-- >> > Then the counselor announced I would >> >"share about the author". Everybody's >> >interested--one of their own will give them the >> >scoop. I talked a while --told some anecdotes >> >and what I knew of Bukowski and his books--i >> >like telling stories so got caught up in it--and >> >people started laughing and having a grand old >> >time. You start telling stories abt an >> >alcoholic from an addict/alcoholic point of view >> >to a room full of the same--and it can get >> >pretty hilarious. Things straight people and >> >"normies" wd never think of, angles on the >> >angles, labyrinths of the labyrinths, the >> >marvels of bullshit the alcoholic/addict mind >> >can concoct. >> > Afterwards I was hoping maybe some of >> >my peers wd be interested in the books and said >> >the library had a lot of them. A bunch of >> >voices went up--no man, we want you to keep >> >telling us stories! Fuck that stupid guy in the >> >motherfuckin movie! Fuck the movies! Just tell >> >stories every week! >> > And I thought we had it clear the guy in >> >the movie isnt the same as the guy in the books! >> >I mean that in real life he's a Writer--along >> >with all the rest of it--still a Writer--one of >> >the few who writes of all this as the Real Deal >> >. . . (or the purported real deal--as they >> >say--angles on the angles!) >> > My bad! >> > CA--maybe you missed it--but before I >> >had mentioned there is already a very good >> >Bukowski anthology--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A >> >CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER edited by John Martin >> >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) it is arranged >> >chronologically not by dates of the writing, but >> >by place in the writer's life the pieces--prose >> >and poetry--are writing about--so constructs a >> >form of memoir-- >> > Thank you to Gwen and Allison for their >> >letters--and for the latter's point that sexism >> >unlike racism seems to be to some degree >> >tolerated on this list--sadly this is time after >> >time shown to be true-- >> > Anne Vitale made I thought the best point >> >abt Bukwoski--that he was a committed writer. >> >He worked his ass off, to the end. Wrote for >> >years in obsucirty while working at the Post >> >Office--and labored away in skin magazines while >> >being lauded abroad and ignored a good deal at >> >home. He was an alcoholic asshole no doubt abt >> >it and charming also as alcoholics can be and >> >his attitudes towards women compounded by >> >alcoholsim could be pretty hideous--(and not >> >unlike hundreds of men i have known)--but then a >> >good number of the most poltically correct and >> >self righteously ethical people i have met have >> >often turned out to be monsters of one form or >> >another also-- >> > I am still wondering since it's often >> >asserted that Billy Collins, Bukowski and >> >Charles Bernstein each have written recognizable >> >ouevres but not memorable poems what they might >> >have in common? >> >(Besides the letters "C B/ BC" in their initials) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>From: Craig Allen Conrad >> >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >> >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT >> >> >> >>Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) >> >> >> >> >> >>Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like >>that! >> >>And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I >>don't have >> >>any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. >> >> >> >>Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. >> >> >> >>Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but >> >>more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way >> >>are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's >> >>no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been >> >>dead for TWELVE YEARS!) >> >> >> >>It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about >> >>his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and his >> >>loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS >> >>this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of >> >>total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you know what >> >>I mean? >> >> >> >>Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've >>gone >> >>onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, >> >>but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his >> >>work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course >>you >> >>don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, >>but >>to >> >>say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make >> >>such summations is what I question. >> >> >> >>Which brings me to Joseph. >> >>Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone" >> >>who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who >> >>knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. >> >> >> >>Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are >> >>referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make it very >> >>clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not >> >>only do I say that I read them >> >>but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me reread >> >>the poems with them. >> >> >> >>Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv you claim >>that >> >>I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very ones who >> >>have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that >>we >>get >> >>Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair of >> >>anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to >> >>100 pages of "excellent" work. >> >> >> >>100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says in that >> >>book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines >> >>worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only >> >>attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying >> >>something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die >> >>with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls >> >>"excellent" don't you think? >> >> >> >> >> >>Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but >>as >> >>these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, >> >>and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea that >> >>ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I >> >>"dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because >> >>I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks! >> >>Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) >> >> >> >> >> >>My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, >> >>CAConrad >> >> >> >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >> >>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >> >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >> >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >> >>restrained...." >> >>--William Blake >> >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >> >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >> >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >> >>(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >_________________________________________________________________ >> >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN >> >Search! >> >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ >> > > > >-- >http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:54:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anna Vitale Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline hey, it's rainy where you are, too? Thanks for "sharing" what you did with the list. I really have a soft spot for Bukowski. Because of his commitment, in some twisted way, to himself, maybe. Being an alcoholic really isn't a commitment to oneself, but writing= , I think, very much can be. (that's not the only thing it is, but . . .) I'm glad you appreciated my mentioning of his commitment. Seeing the documentary about him, Bukowski: Born Into This, reminded me of what I like= d about him/ his work, which . . . how inseparable are those things anyway? Just like, if we can't separate content and form, how can we separate the writer from the writing? It seems like a dog chasing his tail to me, sometimes. And here, I'm hoping to open a can of worms because I've been wondering about "authorship" and people's desire to find something "good in the work" and who cares about the life of the author? ? ? Best, on this rainy Friday evening, now, Anna (Vitale) On 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > I think people misunderstood me--i am just having a sense of humor abt al= l > this discussion---"what do billy collins and bukowski have in common"--an= d > then people bashing one or the other--or sanctifying one or the > other--when > they have nothing in common other than being very popular-- > i think what is being fetishized is arguing--perhaps-- > forgive me, i simply saw some humor in the situation-- > but did once read a very long piece in american poetry review defending > bernstein agaisnt the charge that he hadnt produced a memorable poem-- > personally i find this humorous-- > it can and has been said of any number of artists in any number of > fields-- > just as there are people known forever as "one hit wonders"-- > believe me, i'm not fetishizing anything--i'm just having a laugh on a > friday afternoon when its rainy-- > > > >From: kevin thurston > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in > >Common? > >Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:07:31 -0400 > > > >aren't we beyond fetishizing "the poem" by now? > > > >pretty much, but now 'we' fetishize the poet. > > > >xoxo, > > > >On 5/12/06, Maria Damon wrote: > >> > >>great story. > >>what is wrong with "recognizable oeuvres" over > >>and above "memorable poems"? aren't we beyond > >>fetishizing "the poem" by now? > >> > >>At 3:58 PM -0500 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > >> > Sartre and Genet at one point said that > >> >Bukowski was America's greatest living > >> >writer--for a long time he was much better known > >> >in the land of his birth, Germany, and in France > >> >than in the USA. (There's the book & film > >> >SHAKESPEARE NEVER DID THIS abt Bukowski's > >> >triumphal return to his German hometown--he > >> >wdn't serve in WW2 as proud of his German > >> >heritage.) Bukowski's recognized as a writer in > >> >the line of Hemingway as well as Celine (who > >> >interestingly enough both died on the same day). > >> > I.E. Bukowski is recognized as > >> >Literature--by some Literary Giants--which is > >> >what he wrote for--to be up there with his > >> >beloved "Hem" and "Dost"-- > >> > He's also a Celebrity and a Counter > >> >Culture hero--I am sure he must have made the > >> >pages of People magazine at some point-- > >> > The most interesting experience I ever had > >> >regarding Bukowski was abt five years ago in an > >> >outpatient program for addict/alcoholics. This > >> >was made up of both genders, Black and White > >> >people and working class and below (people on > >> >SSI-disability etc). After a certain point in > >> >the program one of the two counselors decided > >> >that one day a week we wd watch a movie dealing > >> >with alcoholism or drug addiction and talk about > >> >it in relation with things we were learning > >> >about in (recovery. One fine afternoon the > >> >movie we were going to see was BARFLY--based on > >> >Bukowski's life and work, with a script written > >> >by him. The counselor asked if anyone had heard > >> >of this guy Bukwswki--I said yes and talked to > >> >her a few minutes--she said after the film and > >> >discussion--to give a little tlkl re the > >> >poet--but first let everyone see the film and > >> >discuss it in terms of recovery. > >> > No one expected much from the films we > >> >saw--how real is Hollywood going to get abt > >> >addiction and alcoholism anyway? What seems > >> >shocking in the Bukowski books is pretty routine > >> >among the alkie set, the lighter side of the > >> >greater darkness just a few steps further on. > >> >The guy on the screen is just another alcoholic > >> >asshole like hundreds everyone has known and > >> >been themselves often enough. The poetry angle > >> >that gives some hope is a familiar story--bars > >> >are full of people who are would be stars of > >> >song and stage, poetry and music, painting and > >> >all sorts of arts. People kept fidgeting--the > >> >movie was painfully dull! After the film > >> >everyone agreed it had been too fake, too > >> >glamorized and too sentimental. But then it was > >> >a Hollywood film! What do you expect? > >> > After the critique came the recovery part-- > >> > Then the counselor announced I would > >> >"share about the author". Everybody's > >> >interested--one of their own will give them the > >> >scoop. I talked a while --told some anecdotes > >> >and what I knew of Bukowski and his books--i > >> >like telling stories so got caught up in it--and > >> >people started laughing and having a grand old > >> >time. You start telling stories abt an > >> >alcoholic from an addict/alcoholic point of view > >> >to a room full of the same--and it can get > >> >pretty hilarious. Things straight people and > >> >"normies" wd never think of, angles on the > >> >angles, labyrinths of the labyrinths, the > >> >marvels of bullshit the alcoholic/addict mind > >> >can concoct. > >> > Afterwards I was hoping maybe some of > >> >my peers wd be interested in the books and said > >> >the library had a lot of them. A bunch of > >> >voices went up--no man, we want you to keep > >> >telling us stories! Fuck that stupid guy in the > >> >motherfuckin movie! Fuck the movies! Just tell > >> >stories every week! > >> > And I thought we had it clear the guy in > >> >the movie isnt the same as the guy in the books! > >> >I mean that in real life he's a Writer--along > >> >with all the rest of it--still a Writer--one of > >> >the few who writes of all this as the Real Deal > >> >. . . (or the purported real deal--as they > >> >say--angles on the angles!) > >> > My bad! > >> > CA--maybe you missed it--but before I > >> >had mentioned there is already a very good > >> >Bukowski anthology--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A > >> >CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER edited by John Martin > >> >(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) it is arranged > >> >chronologically not by dates of the writing, but > >> >by place in the writer's life the pieces--prose > >> >and poetry--are writing about--so constructs a > >> >form of memoir-- > >> > Thank you to Gwen and Allison for their > >> >letters--and for the latter's point that sexism > >> >unlike racism seems to be to some degree > >> >tolerated on this list--sadly this is time after > >> >time shown to be true-- > >> > Anne Vitale made I thought the best point > >> >abt Bukwoski--that he was a committed writer. > >> >He worked his ass off, to the end. Wrote for > >> >years in obsucirty while working at the Post > >> >Office--and labored away in skin magazines while > >> >being lauded abroad and ignored a good deal at > >> >home. He was an alcoholic asshole no doubt abt > >> >it and charming also as alcoholics can be and > >> >his attitudes towards women compounded by > >> >alcoholsim could be pretty hideous--(and not > >> >unlike hundreds of men i have known)--but then a > >> >good number of the most poltically correct and > >> >self righteously ethical people i have met have > >> >often turned out to be monsters of one form or > >> >another also-- > >> > I am still wondering since it's often > >> >asserted that Billy Collins, Bukowski and > >> >Charles Bernstein each have written recognizable > >> >ouevres but not memorable poems what they might > >> >have in common? > >> >(Besides the letters "C B/ BC" in their initials) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >>From: Craig Allen Conrad > >> >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >> >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? > >> >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT > >> >> > >> >>Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like > >>that! > >> >>And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I > >>don't have > >> >>any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. > >> >> > >> >>Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. > >> >> > >> >>Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but > >> >>more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way > >> >>are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's > >> >>no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been > >> >>dead for TWELVE YEARS!) > >> >> > >> >>It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about > >> >>his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and hi= s > >> >>loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS > >> >>this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of > >> >>total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you > know what > >> >>I mean? > >> >> > >> >>Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've > >>gone > >> >>onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, > >> >>but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his > >> >>work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course > >>you > >> >>don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, > >>but > >>to > >> >>say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make > >> >>such summations is what I question. > >> >> > >> >>Which brings me to Joseph. > >> >>Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone= " > >> >>who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who > >> >>knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. > >> >> > >> >>Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are > >> >>referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make > it very > >> >>clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not > >> >>only do I say that I read them > >> >>but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me rerea= d > >> >>the poems with them. > >> >> > >> >>Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv > you claim > >>that > >> >>I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very > ones who > >> >>have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that > >>we > >>get > >> >>Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair o= f > >> >>anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to > >> >>100 pages of "excellent" work. > >> >> > >> >>100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says > in that > >> >>book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines > >> >>worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only > >> >>attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying > >> >>something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die > >> >>with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls > >> >>"excellent" don't you think? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but > >>as > >> >>these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, > >> >>and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea tha= t > >> >>ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I > >> >>"dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because > >> >>I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks= ! > >> >>Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, > >> >>CAConrad > >> >> > >> >>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, > 2006) > >> >>for poem samples from the book go > to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > >> >>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > >> >>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to > be > >> >>restrained...." > >> >>--William Blake > >> >>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > >> >>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > >> >>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com= _ > >> >>(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >_________________________________________________________________ > >> >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN > >> >Search! > >> >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > >> > > > > > > > >-- > >http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to > get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=3DRetirement > --=20 live more: annavitale.blogspot.com www.myspace.com/meltingmoments ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding David-Baptiste's amiable question -- what do Charles Bukowski, Billy Collins, and Charles Bernstein have in common? Here's a small list: 1) a B.C. name 2) a 4-syllable name (if you go the "Chuck Bukowski" route) 3) all are circa-20th-century American poets of some renown 4) probably 98% of their genetic code is virtually IDENTICAL! . . . and that's not even the half of it. Also [to really get into this now]: 5) all of them show a love of writing 6) all of them tend to write in a 20th century idiom (with a few exceptions in the case of Bernstein, who at times seems to enjoy 18th-19th century mannerisms too -- he's the throw-back it seems) 7) all tend to write in modes of unrhymed open-form prose-ish poetry (again with minor sporadic allowances for that School of Quietudish Bernstein guy) Heck, I've barely gotten started. But best stop while I'm ahead -- my half-pretzel worth, d.i. david raphael israel washington dc http://kirwani.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:27:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? Comments: To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" hey dbc i wasn't intending to chastize you...i really loved your tale. no need to ask forgiveness, no transgression occurred. At 4:26 PM -0500 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >I think people misunderstood me--i am just having a sense of humor >abt all this discussion---"what do billy collins and bukowski have >in common"--and then people bashing one or the other--or sanctifying >one or the other--when they have nothing in common other than being >very popular-- >i think what is being fetishized is arguing--perhaps-- >forgive me, i simply saw some humor in the situation-- >but did once read a very long piece in american poetry review >defending bernstein agaisnt the charge that he hadnt produced a >memorable poem-- >personally i find this humorous-- >it can and has been said of any number of artists in any number of fields-- >just as there are people known forever as "one hit wonders"-- >believe me, i'm not fetishizing anything--i'm just having a laugh on >a friday afternoon when its rainy-- > >>From: kevin thurston >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein >>Have in Common? >>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:07:31 -0400 >> >>aren't we beyond fetishizing "the poem" by now? >> >>pretty much, but now 'we' fetishize the poet. >> >>xoxo, >> >>On 5/12/06, Maria Damon wrote: >>> >>>great story. >>>what is wrong with "recognizable oeuvres" over >>>and above "memorable poems"? aren't we beyond >>>fetishizing "the poem" by now? >>> >>>At 3:58 PM -0500 5/12/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >>>> Sartre and Genet at one point said that >>>>Bukowski was America's greatest living >>>>writer--for a long time he was much better known >>>>in the land of his birth, Germany, and in France >>>>than in the USA. (There's the book & film >>>>SHAKESPEARE NEVER DID THIS abt Bukowski's >>>>triumphal return to his German hometown--he >>>>wdn't serve in WW2 as proud of his German >>>>heritage.) Bukowski's recognized as a writer in >>>>the line of Hemingway as well as Celine (who >>>>interestingly enough both died on the same day). >>>> I.E. Bukowski is recognized as >>>>Literature--by some Literary Giants--which is >>>>what he wrote for--to be up there with his >>>>beloved "Hem" and "Dost"-- >>>> He's also a Celebrity and a Counter >>>>Culture hero--I am sure he must have made the >>>>pages of People magazine at some point-- >>>> The most interesting experience I ever had >>>>regarding Bukowski was abt five years ago in an >>>>outpatient program for addict/alcoholics. This >>>>was made up of both genders, Black and White >>>>people and working class and below (people on >>>>SSI-disability etc). After a certain point in >>>>the program one of the two counselors decided >>>>that one day a week we wd watch a movie dealing >>>>with alcoholism or drug addiction and talk about >>>>it in relation with things we were learning >>>>about in (recovery. One fine afternoon the >>>>movie we were going to see was BARFLY--based on >>>>Bukowski's life and work, with a script written >>>>by him. The counselor asked if anyone had heard >>>>of this guy Bukwswki--I said yes and talked to >>>>her a few minutes--she said after the film and >>>>discussion--to give a little tlkl re the >>>>poet--but first let everyone see the film and >>>>discuss it in terms of recovery. >>>> No one expected much from the films we >>>>saw--how real is Hollywood going to get abt >>>>addiction and alcoholism anyway? What seems >>>>shocking in the Bukowski books is pretty routine >>>>among the alkie set, the lighter side of the >>>>greater darkness just a few steps further on. >>>>The guy on the screen is just another alcoholic >>>>asshole like hundreds everyone has known and >>>>been themselves often enough. The poetry angle >>>>that gives some hope is a familiar story--bars >>>>are full of people who are would be stars of >>>>song and stage, poetry and music, painting and >>> >all sorts of arts. People kept fidgeting--the >>>>movie was painfully dull! After the film >>>>everyone agreed it had been too fake, too >>>>glamorized and too sentimental. But then it was >>>>a Hollywood film! What do you expect? >>>> After the critique came the recovery part-- >>>> Then the counselor announced I would >>>>"share about the author". Everybody's >>>>interested--one of their own will give them the >>>>scoop. I talked a while --told some anecdotes >>>>and what I knew of Bukowski and his books--i >>>>like telling stories so got caught up in it--and >>>>people started laughing and having a grand old >>>>time. You start telling stories abt an >>>>alcoholic from an addict/alcoholic point of view >>>>to a room full of the same--and it can get >>>>pretty hilarious. Things straight people and >>>>"normies" wd never think of, angles on the >>>>angles, labyrinths of the labyrinths, the >>>>marvels of bullshit the alcoholic/addict mind >>>>can concoct. >>>> Afterwards I was hoping maybe some of >>>>my peers wd be interested in the books and said >>>>the library had a lot of them. A bunch of >>>>voices went up--no man, we want you to keep >>>>telling us stories! Fuck that stupid guy in the >>>>motherfuckin movie! Fuck the movies! Just tell >>>>stories every week! >>>> And I thought we had it clear the guy in >>>>the movie isnt the same as the guy in the books! >>>>I mean that in real life he's a Writer--along >>>>with all the rest of it--still a Writer--one of >>>>the few who writes of all this as the Real Deal >>>>. . . (or the purported real deal--as they >>>>say--angles on the angles!) >>>> My bad! >>>> CA--maybe you missed it--but before I >>>>had mentioned there is already a very good >>>>Bukowski anthology--RUN WITH THE HUNTED A >>>>CHARLES BUKOWSKI READER edited by John Martin >>>>(NY: Harper Perennial, 1994) it is arranged >>>>chronologically not by dates of the writing, but >>>>by place in the writer's life the pieces--prose >>>>and poetry--are writing about--so constructs a >>>>form of memoir-- >>>> Thank you to Gwen and Allison for their >>>>letters--and for the latter's point that sexism >>>>unlike racism seems to be to some degree >>>>tolerated on this list--sadly this is time after >>>>time shown to be true-- >>>> Anne Vitale made I thought the best point >>>>abt Bukwoski--that he was a committed writer. >>>>He worked his ass off, to the end. Wrote for >>>>years in obsucirty while working at the Post >>>>Office--and labored away in skin magazines while >>>>being lauded abroad and ignored a good deal at >>>>home. He was an alcoholic asshole no doubt abt >>>>it and charming also as alcoholics can be and >>>>his attitudes towards women compounded by >>>>alcoholsim could be pretty hideous--(and not >>>>unlike hundreds of men i have known)--but then a >>>>good number of the most poltically correct and >>>>self righteously ethical people i have met have >>>>often turned out to be monsters of one form or >>>>another also-- >>>> I am still wondering since it's often >>>>asserted that Billy Collins, Bukowski and >>>>Charles Bernstein each have written recognizable >>>>ouevres but not memorable poems what they might >>>>have in common? >>>>(Besides the letters "C B/ BC" in their initials) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: Craig Allen Conrad >>>>>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>>Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >>>>>Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:09:14 EDT >>>>> >>>>>Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then Joseph) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Gwyn, you have such a great WAY of blistering with anger! I like that! >>>>>And I also like all your talk about your pussy, etc., and NO, I >>>don't have >>>>>any mileage on it at all. I've been a cocksucker since the start. >>>>> >>>>>Oh the drunken muff diving. Well, more assumptions I suppose. >>>>> >>>>>Gwyn it is possible Bukowski was all the things we think of, but >>>>>more too. You can see it in his later poems, which by the way >>>>>are still coming out in magazines as we argue about him. (that's >>>>>no lie, he's in the 2005 AMERICAN BEST OF, and he's been >>>>>dead for TWELVE YEARS!) >>>>> >>>>>It's kind of STUNNING to see a man who has written exclusively about >>> >>his feelings about his body, his body's functions, his gripes and his >>>>>loves to COME TO THIS other place at the end which is like he HITS >>>>>this wide summit of ice and he's sliding along it with moments of >>>>>total clarity, BAM! these epiphanies striking flint! Do you know what >>>>>I mean? >>>>> >>>>>Okay okay, I get it that it's NOT exciting to read him once you've gone >>>>>onto to discover Ceravolo, then to discover Bergvall, and on and on, >>>>>but totally dismissing him as you wanted with your summation of his >>>>>work was kind of just missing all his sharper edges. And of course you >>>>>don't have to look at it, nor do you have to WANT to. That's fine, but >>>to >>>>>say you KNOW his work enough to make the assumptions and to make >>>>>such summations is what I question. >>>>> >>>>>Which brings me to Joseph. >>>>>Joseph, you accuse me with your brittle comparison of being "someone" >>>>>who can dismiss Bishop while at the same time being someone who >>>>>knocks others for dismissing Bukowski. >>>>> >>>>>Well Joseph, you might want to consider REREADING the posts you are >>>>>referring to on Bishop. Because Joseph, in those posts I make it very >>>>>clear that I DID read her poems. In fact, not >>>>>only do I say that I read them >>>>>but that I have friends who LOVE her so much that they made me reread >>>>>the poems with them. >>>>> >>>>>Point being Joseph, that maybe a few folks on this Listserv you claim >>>that >>>>>I dismiss so easily for dismissing Bukowski might be the very ones who >>>>>have NOT done their reading? In fact, it's awfully interesting that we >>>get >>>>>Pierre Joris, a man who has co-edited one of the most amazing pair of >>>>>anthologies on poetry I've ever seen saying Bukowski had maybe up to >>>>>100 pages of "excellent" work. >>>>> >>>>>100 pages, that's great! Do you realize that Ezra Pound says in that >>>>>book the ABC of Reading that Whitman only had a handful of lines >>>>>worth reading? Bukowski gets 100 pages from Joris, but Pound only >>>>>attributes a handful of lines for Whitman! Wow, that's saying >>>>>something man!!!! And you and I should BE SO LUCKY to die >>>>>with 100 pages of work someone as noteworthy as Joris calls >>>>>"excellent" don't you think? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Granted I haven't read an entire book of Bukowski in many years, but as >>>>>these later, last poems constantly pop up in magazines I read them, >>>>>and can see the Buddha I mentioned. (by the way, I had NO idea that >>>>>ANGER was going to come at me with the back channels when I >>>>>"dared" called Bukowski a Buddha. But I do it again, both because >>>>>I really do mean it, and also to irritate the shit out of some folks! >>>>>Buddha would laugh at you with me I think!) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>My love to you both Gwyn and Joseph, whether you want it or not, >>>>>CAConrad >>>>> >>>>>CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >>>>>for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >>>>>(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>>>>"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >>>>>restrained...." >>>>>--William Blake >>>>>for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>>>>(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >>>>>for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>>>>(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>_________________________________________________________________ >>>>Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN >>>>Search! >>>>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com > >_________________________________________________________________ >On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on >how to get there! >http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:44:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Press Subject: NYC Reading - Tomorrow! - Jenny Boully, Sandy Florian, Electa Arena & Beax Gates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Tarpaulin Sky / Frequency Series Spring Readings in NYC http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/READINGS/index.html Featuring Jenny Boully, Sandy Florian, and translations of Jesus Aguado by Electa Arenal and Beax Gates 2PM Saturday, May 13 @ The Four-Faced Liar 165 West 4th Street (between 6th & 7th Ave), NY, NY Co-translators ELECTA ARENAL and BEATRIX GATES were awarded the 2003 Witter Bynner Translation Residency at the Sante Fe Art Institute to collaborate on selected works of contemporary Spanish poet Jesús Aguado; they produced a translation of the book-length poem, _what you say about me_. An earlier co-translation from Aguado's _Like the Oar That Cuts the Current: Poems of Vikram Babu_ appeared in Sam Hamill’s _Poets Against the War_. JESUS AGUADO, b. 1961, Spain, is the author of _Los amores imposibles [Impossible Loves]_ (Hiperión Prize, 1990, Madrid); _Libro de Homenajes [Book of Homage]_ (Hiperión Press, Madrid, 1993), _El fugitivo [The Fugitive]_ (Pre-Textos, Valencia, 1998); _Los poemas de Vikram Babu_ (Hiperión, 2000); _Lo que dices de mí [What You Say About Me]_ (Pre-Textos, 2002); _Heridas [Wounds_] (Renacimiento, Seville, 2004); and _La astucia del vacío: Cuadernos de Benarés 1986-2004 [The Cunning of the Void: Benares Notebooks 1987-2004]_ (Ediciones Narila, Málaga, 2005); among other books. JENNY BOULLY is the author of _[one love affair]*_ (Tarpaulin Sky Press, 2006), and _The Body_ (Slope Editions, 2002). Her work has been anthologized in _The Best American Poetry 2002_, _Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present_, and _The Next American Essay_ and has appeared in Boston Review, Seneca Review, and Conjunctions. Her _Book of Beginnings and Endings_ is forthcoming from Sarabande. Born in Thailand and reared in Texas, she has studied at Hollins University and the University of Notre Dame and is pursuing a Ph.D. at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. She divides her time between Brooklyn and a small town in Texas. SANDY FLORIAN was born in NY and raised in Latin America. She earned her MFA from Brown University’s Creative Writing Program and is a current candidate for a PhD in English and Creative Writing at the University of Denver. Her first book, _Telescope_, is forthcoming in the fall with Action Books. Her work appears in many journals, including Indiana Review (Latino Edition), Bombay Gin, La Petite Zine, Shampoo Poetry, 14 Hills, elimae, New Orleans Review, eratio, Gargoyle, 42 Opus, Word For/Word, Segue, Versal, and The Encyclopedia Project. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:02:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Common In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I was just wondering, while sitting in the sun at the bALL game today: What do Charles Bukowski and Diaghelev have in common? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:15:56 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 13/5/06 7:54 AM, "Anna Vitale" wrote: > Just like, if we can't separate content and form, how can we separate the > writer from the writing? I don't have words written down my spine (ok, this isn't foolproof) and I don't live in a bookshelf. My books have never been heard snoring or sneezing and I've never seen them out to dinner or at an opening night. I might be a fiction, but I am still more than a centimetre thick. I think big problems result from not distinguishing between writers and their work. Not out of a desire to find something "good in the work" (?) nor because of claims of authorship, which are always difficult, but because they are two different things. If you don't distinguish, it makes the author a guarantor of a work's authenticity, you get all these "hoaxes" or frauds, and in the end, who cares about the work? Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:24:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? Comments: cc: David Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alison, 2 cents: Good points. Still, without needing to hie oneself to the nethermost ends of the proposed dichotomy (i.e., the dualism under which we either say "Yes writer and writing are inseparable" versus "No they are entirely distinct and must never be confounded one w/ the other"), a middle path, perhaps, could allow that in some useful respects, the one finds reflection in the other; and=20 that neither would be what it is, lacking the other. ;-) d.i. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alison Croggon Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? On 13/5/06 7:54 AM, "Anna Vitale" wrote: > Just like, if we can't separate content and form, how can we separate=20 > the writer from the writing? I don't have words written down my spine (ok, this isn't foolproof) and I don't live in a bookshelf. My books have never been heard snoring or sneezing and I've never seen them out to dinner or at an opening night. I might be a fiction, but I am still more than a centimetre thick. I think big problems result from not distinguishing between writers and their work. Not out of a desire to find something "good in the work" (?) nor because of claims of authorship, which are always difficult, but because they are two different things. If you don't distinguish, it makes the author a guarantor of a work's authenticity, you get all these "hoaxes" or frauds, and in the end, who cares about the work? Best A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:29:08 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <0895E98850E5F247B725A30CCB9292C9454BD1@EVS1.ntcorp.local> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 13/5/06 10:24 AM, "David Israel" wrote: > Good points. Still, without needing to hie oneself > to the nethermost ends of the proposed dichotomy (i.e., > the dualism under which we either say "Yes writer and > writing are inseparable" versus "No they are entirely > distinct and must never be confounded one w/ the other"), > a middle path, perhaps, could allow that in some useful > respects, the one finds reflection in the other; and > that neither would be what it is, lacking the other. Point taken: but I seldom see that complexity applied...with very few exceptions, I loathe autobiographical readings of writers' works, because they're almost always misleading or distorting. Also, problems like the withdrawal of Peter Handke's play from the Coemdie-Francaise by the manger, for his political beliefs. The play has nothing to do with Handke's political beliefs, whatever they are. (Details on my blog if you're interested). So is that lack of distinction fair enough? Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 07:03:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 13 May 2006 at 10:15, Alison Croggon wrote: > ... I think big problems result from not distinguishing between writers and > their work. ... because they are two different things. If you don't distinguish, > it makes the author a guarantor of a work's authenticity, you get all these >"hoaxes" or frauds, and in the end, who cares about the work?< A succinct summary of the condition of poetry in the free verse era, and of the cause, On 12 May 2006 at 20:24, David Israel wrote: > ... Still ...a middle path, perhaps, could allow that in some useful > respects, the one finds reflection in the other; and > that neither would be what it is, lacking the other.<< Sure, but then you get a middling number of hoaxes and frauds. On 13 May 2006 at 10:29, Alison Croggon wrote: > ... I seldom see that complexity applied...with very > few exceptions, I loathe autobiographical readings of writers' works, > because they're almost always misleading or distorting.<< Just so -- it makes those works what they really are: mere diary entries and anecdotes. That they are broken up into a ragged right form ceases to distinguish them as poems once they become autobiography, and can and should be tested for whether they hew to the facts of the case instead of telling the truth through metaphor. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 23:34:04 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <446584BC.2192.2721CD9@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 13/5/06 9:03 PM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Just so -- it makes those works what they really are: mere diary entries and > anecdotes. That they are broken up into a ragged right form ceases to > distinguish > them as poems once they become autobiography, and can and should be tested for > whether they hew to the facts of the case instead of telling the truth through > metaphor. I don't think we're talking about the same things. I was thinking of some things I've read (or more accurately, half read) such as an objectionable biography of Rilke that lumpenly explicated his poems through incidents in his life, which seems to me an utterly reductive, not to say sentimental, way of understanding writing. Which is not to say that a poem might not have biographical resonance. It's just not the only thing happening. Very few critics have the tact to illuminate this, though. As for the "free verse era" - well, free verse is quite a demanding form. And a lot of contemporary poetry (the interesting stuff, anyway, that tends to eschew "traditional" forms) is deeply about exploding lazy ideas of "self expression" or given identity or any such thing. Or so it seems to me. All best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:48:49 -0400 Reply-To: tyrone williams Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tyrone williams Subject: Re: OHMIGAWD!!!!!!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aldon, Thanks for the Sun Ra reference/forward--wish I could find a way to downlo= ad this as it was happening (and thanks again for the book--just took a sec= ond voyage thru mixage...) Tyrone =20 -----Original Message----- >From: ALDON L NIELSEN >Sent: May 10, 2006 12:50 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: OHMIGAWD!!!!!!!! > >Subject: [dimeadozenjazzforum] Sun Ra Arrival Day Celebration on WKCR - Ma= y 22 & >23 > > > >For Immediate Release: May 5, 2006=20 > >Contact: >Jordan Paul - Director of Publicity, WKCR - jtp2104@columbia.edu / >212.854.9920=20 >Charles Blass - Festival Producer - lovolution@gmail.com / >212.642.8473=20 > >Sun Ra Institute and WKCR-FM NYC present=20 > >'SUN RADIO OMNIVERSITY' - SUN RA ARRIVAL DAY CELEBRATION=20 > >32-HOUR RADIO MARATHON=20 >MONDAY, MAY 22nd at midnight to TUESDAY, MAY 23rd, 8:20 AM >89.9 FM NYC & WWW.WKCR.ORG streaming live across the galaxies=20 > >The Sun Ra Institute and WKCR-FM are proud to announce the Sun Ra >Arrival Day Celebration, a 32-hour radio marathon featuring work of >the innovative and iconoclastic composer, bandleader, and keyboardist >Sun Ra. Each segment of the festival will focus on a specific feature >of Ra's musical legacy: Standards and Ballads, The Swing Tradition, >Solo Piano and Poetry, Late 1950's and Early Rarities, Tone Science, >Singers, and more. The Arrival Day Celebration will include exclusive >recordings from WKCR's archives as well as live special guest >interviews with Marshall Allen, Director of the Sun Ra Arkestra, and >Arkestra members of the past, present and future. > >Born Herman Poole Blount in Birmingham, Alabama on May 22, 1914, he >was nicknamed Sonny from his youth. He later abandoned his birth name >and took on the name and persona of Sun Ra ("Ra" being the name of >the ancient Egyptian god of the Sun). He did not consider himself >"born"; rather, he "arrived" on the planet, entering via Birmingham. >From the '50's to the '90's Sun Ra led a large ensemble with a fluid >lineup under a variety of names: The Solar Myth Arkestra, The >Intergalactic Space Research Arkestra, and many others. Sun Ra >departed on Memorial Day - May 30, 1993. > >Sun Ra's prolific achievements on Planet Earth have been widely >acclaimed and recorded in documentaries, books, and a feature film >titled "Space is The Place". He founded his record label, El Saturn >Records, in the 1950s, and proceeded to unleash nearly 200 fiercely >individualistic and extremely diverse albums on an unsuspecting and >largely unprepared public. He also recorded for a handful of major >labels, and he attained widespread notoriety from his legendary >concerts, radio, and television appearances. His interstellar >musical, poetic, linguistic, and spiritual explorations are >unparalleled in the history of modern music and culture.=20 > >With The Arkestra, Sun Ra gave astonishing performances around the >world for decades. He was always accompanied by stellar musicians in >fantastic costumes, and a joyful atmosphere of mischievous space >camaraderie was ever present. His music is most often regarded as >'Jazz', though it spans the full spectrum from Swing to Space, with >ballads, show tunes, hard- and post-bop, exoticism, funk, energy >music, and electronic hyperdrive.=20 > >WKCR SUN RA ARRIVAL DAY CELEBRATION: PRELIMINARY SCHEDULE >May 22nd, 2006 - 89.9 FM NYC & WWW.WKCR.ORG > >12-5 AM Sun Ra Potpourri=20 > The broadcast will begin with a variety of great Sun Ra sounds to >warm up this event.=20 > >5-8 AM Sun Ra Plays Standards and Ballads=20 > The Daybreak Express show will feature Sun Ra's performances of >standards, ballads, and show tunes.=20 > >8-9:30 AM The Swing Tradition=20 > The Bird Flight slot will be an extension of the previous show, but >this time focusing on the compositions of Jelly Roll Morton, Duke >Ellington, Fletcher Henderson, and others. Little known facts: >Fletcher himself once gave up his own piano chair to Sun Ra. Sun Ra >wrote charts that Coleman Hawkins had difficulty playing. Monk was >impressed, too.=20 > >9:30 AM-Noon Solo Piano and Poetry=20 > Our morning Classical show will present Sun Ra's solo piano >recordings, including an exclusive performance at WKCR in July 1977. >This segment will also incorporate Sun Ra's extensive poetic works.=20 > >Noon-5PM Omniversity: Late 1950's and Early Rarities=20 > Phil Schaap will shine the spotlight on Sun Ra's elemental work from >the later 1950's. Following this segment, we will shift into a survey >of the very earliest recordings of Sun Ra, arranging for singers and >performing as a sideman. Phil will be joined by a panel of scholars >and band members, presenting the rarest of Sun Ra sides.=20 > >5-8 PM Tone Science=20 > The synthesizer and abstract works of Sun Ra. Tune in for some of >the most adventurous recordings of Sun Ra's career. This segment will >include both solo synthesizer performances as well as those with an >ensemble.=20 > >8 PM-1 AM From the Ark > The evening segment is expected to be the highlight of the marathon. >We will play live recordings and interviews, with visits from special >guests and a focus on materials from WKCR's own "Arkives", as well as >a collection gathered by The Sun Ra Institute.=A0 We will take some >time to honor the current living-and-breathing Sun Ra Arkestra, under >the masterful direction of Marshall Allen, and celebrate Marshall's >82nd birthday a few days early.=A0 Stay tuned for extra features in the >works, including remote broadcast from the Sun Ra House in >Philadelphia.=20 > >1-2 AM The Singers=20 > This hour will give a closer look at Sun Ra's work with vocalists, >including his R&B and Doo-wop efforts.=20 > >2-5 AM Overnight Sun Ra=20 >5-8:20 AM Daybreak Sun Ra=20 > Sun Ra will again be the focus of Transfigured Night and Daybreak >Express. Here is another chance Travel the Spaceways with Sun Ra and >The Arkestra. Tyrone Williams ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 10:14:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jUStin!katKO Subject: New @ Meshworks: Trevor Joyce & Bernadette Mayer In-Reply-To: <3bf622560605111225te9da588xce3f0f4db7dbe8f7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Meshworks is proud to announce its new home on the web =96 http://www.muohio.edu/meshworks/ =96 with three new sets by Trevor Joyce, Bernadette Mayer, and various artists from the 3rd installment of SCENE !N HERD (including William R. Howe, cris cheek, & Keith Tuma). Note that if you've saved Meshworks Quicktime Links on your hard drive, you'll have to update the links by resaving them from the new site. Apologies for any inconveniences... We hope you'll come back often as video & audio from p o s t_m o o t =96 http://plantarchy.us/post_moot.html =96 is added to the archive over the course of the summer. Enjoy! * * * Trevor Joyce @ SoundEye (2005): http://www.muohio.edu/meshworks/archive/Joyce_Trevor.html Bernadette Mayer @ Miami University (2006): http://www.muohio.edu/meshworks/archive/Mayer_Bernadette.html SCENE !N HERD 3 @ Miami University (2006): http://www.muohio.edu/meshworks/archive/scene_in_herd_3.html * * * in the Archive: Mairead Byrne, cris cheek, Randolph Healy, Lisa Jarnot, Trevor Joyce, Bernadette Mayer, Tom Raworth, Alan Sondheim, Catherine Wagner, & Tyrone Williams * * * Meshworks: the Miami University Archive of Writing in Performance http://www.muohio.edu/meshworks/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 23:21:14 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Rowland Subject: notice for journal of the short poem, with call for submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Issue 3 of Noon: Journal of the Short Poem (March 2006) is available. The magazine is Japanese stab-bound, printed on washi paper in an edition of 200 copies. 74 pages. Main contributors to Noon 3 are: Joseph Massey, Alan Halsey, John Levy, Bob Arnold, Paul Murphy, Jim Kacian, David Miller, Jesse Glass, Sheila E. Murphy, Thomas A. Clark, Alistair Noon, Theodore Enslin and David Berridge. There are also some copies of Noon 2 (September 2005) still available. Contributors include Vassilis Zambaras, Dimitar Anakiev, Chris McCabe, Philip Terry, John M. Bennett, Morris Cox, Jesse Glass, David Jaffin, Rosmarie Waldrop, Richard Kostelanetz and Marlene Mountain. Single issue, airmail postage included: US$14 / GBP 7.50 / 1500 Japanese yen. International postal money order (made payable to Philip Rowland), cash or IRCs acceptable. Submissions for Issue 4 (September 2006) are welcome, and may be sent to the editor, Philip Rowland, via email: rowlandnoon@mac.com or at: 506 Brillia Gaien Dewazaka 4 Minami Motomachi Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0012 Japan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:41:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: notice for journal of the short poem, with call for submissions In-Reply-To: <2476AC60-842E-42EE-91FA-48617C9FA946@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my continuing fascination with bindings, can someone explain "stab- bound"... On May 13, 2006, at 9:21 AM, Philip Rowland wrote: > Issue 3 of Noon: Journal of the Short Poem (March 2006) is > available. The magazine is Japanese stab-bound, printed on washi > paper in an edition of 200 copies. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 23:48:00 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Rowland Subject: Re: notice for journal of the short poem, with call for submissions In-Reply-To: <03FE643C-AAAB-42C4-85E3-DEB2DC67F1B7@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bound in traditional Japanese style, with thread through holes carefully 'stabbed' along the book's left-hand margin. On May 13, 2006, at 11:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > In my continuing fascination with bindings, can someone explain > "stab-bound"... > > > On May 13, 2006, at 9:21 AM, Philip Rowland wrote: > >> Issue 3 of Noon: Journal of the Short Poem (March 2006) is >> available. The magazine is Japanese stab-bound, printed on washi >> paper in an edition of 200 copies. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 08:19:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: <3df.27f0b94.31961b3a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'll take your love, CA. Thanks, if you really mean it. And, like you, who read Bishop, I too read Bukowski, and a lot of it, though I found his poems ultimately uninteresting. That's why I was asking for some specific poems that really wowed you, so I could focus my attention on them. And maybe you could explain what it is about those specific poems that you find interesting. I have a pretty open mind when it comes to poetry--and would certainly never say that Buk isn't writing poetry, or that he's writing bad poetry, only that he's written many poems that haven't interested me too much as poems, that is, on the level of language. Best, Joseph --- Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then > Joseph) > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 09:04:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: notice for journal of the short poem, with call for submissions In-Reply-To: <54238752-70CD-4040-9CFA-38B3D77CDA5D@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Also known as "side stitch" binding or "cross side stitch" binding or "Oriental side stitch" binding or "Japanese side stitch" binding, or, if you want to use the Japanese term, Fukuro-toji, even though the bindings actually were adapted by Japanese bookbinders (and some might say perfected and highly stylized by them) from Chinese and Korean styles. The bindings generally have either four holes for stitching, or five. The four hole style is Chinese, the five hole style is Korean; the specific numbers probably having to do with superstitions about odd & even numbers. Generally paper is folded in this binding, with fold-side out as the unbound edge. There's a pretty good set of instructions for making this binding on pages 17-20 of the following online PDF -- http://benrinehart.com/images/pdfs/bb_handouts.pdf There are some photos of the four-hole books, with four different stitching variations, here -- http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/books.html I'd also highly recommend, for these styles of binding as well as many other Japanese bookbinding styles, the book, Ikegami, Kojiro. Japanese Bookbinding: Instructions from a Master Craftsman (Weatherhill: New York & Tokyo, 1986). This is one of the few really terrific books in the field of bookmaking. Charles At 07:48 AM 5/13/2006, you wrote: >Bound in traditional Japanese style, with thread through holes >carefully 'stabbed' along the book's left-hand margin. > >On May 13, 2006, at 11:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >>In my continuing fascination with bindings, can someone explain >>"stab-bound"... >> >> >>On May 13, 2006, at 9:21 AM, Philip Rowland wrote: >> >>>Issue 3 of Noon: Journal of the Short Poem (March 2006) is >>>available. The magazine is Japanese stab-bound, printed on washi >>>paper in an edition of 200 copies. > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 11:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: Sterling Plumpp In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sterling Plumpp will perform his poetry with The Ways & Means Trio at Muse Cafe - 8-10 p.m. on Tuesday, May 16 as part of the Lower & Upper Limits series Sterling Plumpp's collections of poetry include Hornman, Blues Narratives, Velvet BeBop Kente Cloth, and Ornate with Smoke. He is the recipient of numerous awards, including the Richard Wright Literary Excellence Award, the Carl Sandburg Literary Award for poetry, the RiverRoad Lifetime Achievement Award, and three Illinois Arts Council awards. He taught English and African-American Studies at the University of Illinois at Chicago until 2001, when he became professor emeritus. Lower & Upper Limits is a series at Muse Cafe that explores collaborations between poets and musicians and relationships between language and music. The Ways & Means Trio is Jayve Montgomery (reeds, percussion, electronics), Joel Wanek (upright bass, cello), and Daniel Godston (trumpet, percussion). The title of this series is taken from Louis Zukofsky's "A-12": "I'll tell you. / About my poetics -- music / speech / An integral / Lower limit speech / Upper limit music." Lower & Upper Limits happens at Muse Cafe on the third Tuesday of the month. Al DeGenova will be joining Ways & Means during the June 20 Lower & Upper Limits event. Muse Cafe is at 817 N. Milwaukee Ave. in Chicago, and the phone number is 312.850.2233. The Chicago station on the CTA blue line is a half a block away. This event is free and open to the public, donations appreciated. For more information please visit these websites: www.musecafechicago.com & http://jayvejohnmontgomery.com/. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 20:25:08 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Common In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline You mean Sergei Diaghilev, a certain sexual violence, eeriness, stubborness= , and the final capacity to triumph on stage. On 5/13/06, George Bowering wrote: > > I was just wondering, while sitting in the sun at the bALL game today: > > What do Charles Bukowski and Diaghelev have in common? > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 12:25:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 May 2006 to 11 May 2006 (#2006-132) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends on the Poetics List in Argentina - If any of you happen live in, are traveling to, or know someone in Buenos Aires who may be interested, you are invited to see the video of Monika Weiss, "Phlegethon-Milczenie" as part of ArteBA 2006, May 19 thru May 24, 2006. Please forward to anyone who might like to see the works of all th eartists represented there. Salud, - Marc Nasdor ------------------------------------ Program info: http://www.arteba.org/01/prensa2006-en/prensa06/cajanegra/chelsea.htm arteBA 2006 15 Feria de Arte Contemporaneo La Rural, Yellow and Red Pavillions 4476 Cerviño Avenue/2704 Sarmiento Avenue Buenos Aires Argentina May 19 thru May 24 BLACK BOX/WHITE CUBE - VIDEO SPACE CODES OF CULTURE Video Art from 7 Continents Marina Abramovic, Yael Bartana, Jacqueline Bates, Nicola Constantino, Olga Egorova (Tsaplya), Theo Eshetu, Andrea Juan, Marcia Grostein, Jenny Marketou, Shirin Neshat, Nam June Paik, Patricia Piccinini, Kathleen Ruiz, Eder Santos, Marty St. James, Leonid Tishkov, Monika Weiss, Zhang Yuan, Mateo Zlatar Curated by Nina Colosi, Founder, The Project Room, New York PRESS INQUIRIES and GENERAL INFORMATION: Nina Colosi, Founder/curator, The Project Room, NY nina.colosi@gmail.com Telephone: New York - 212-867-0883; Buenos Aires - 54 911 6441 9598 Paulina Kolczynska: paulinakol@gmail.com; Tel. 1-917 330 0029 Press inquiries in Spanish: Delfina Helguera: 15 4 947 6841 www.arteBA.com This exhibition of recent video art presents diverse perspectives on codes of culture by artists from around the world. In YOU COULD BE LUCKY, YAEL BARTANA observes people acting in patterns of popular social behaviors, and EDER SANTOS in FRAMED BY CURTAINS and JACQUELINE BATES in SONO ANDATI, search for meaning in everyday rituals. OLGA EGOROVA (TSAPLYA) presents a humorous lecture on the results of studying the cultural implications of women’s underwear in society in UNDERWEAR. METHODOLOGICAL OBSERVATION ON DOMESTICATION AND RESEARCH. SNOW ANGEL by LEONID TISHKOV recalls the artist’s childhood in a mysterious image of a spiritual journey to the Ural mountains in Russia, that remains the source of his inspiration. HOMAGE by MARTY ST. JAMES is a self-portrait with his signature fedora hat that is an homage to a comradery with family, friends and fellow artists who wear them. The chanting of Buddhist monks propel St. James’ dreamlike journey to locate and inhabit an inner sense of self and being in spaces existing between meaning and meaninglessness, the moving and static In KARASELE by MARCIA GROSTEIN, there is no way to escape for a family trapped in a cycle of abuse. MARINA ABRAMOVIC transforms her own fears and emotions into startling images that frequently take on ritual or ceremonial forms and that critique the role that the female body is made to play in Western culture. INSOMNIA belongs to a three-part installation that explores the insistent and recurring process of traumatic memory. PULSE by SHIRIN NESHAT speaks of the tension between collective cultural identity and one driven by individual concerns in contemporary Islam. This intoxicating work deals with the type of candid sexuality that occurs when everything is so controlled. PHLEGETHON-MILCZENIE is a performance-based video, where the artist, MONIKA WEISS creates a universal memorial to culture destroyed by tyrants, through symbolic images and music, as well as objects -- pre-WWII German books-- with which she has bodily contact as she draws around her silhouette. ANTARCTICA PROJECT by ANDREA JUAN reflects on the impact of human patterns of consumption on the environment. NICOLA CONSTANTINO’s SAVON DE CORPS, reflects on consumerism in society where things are not what they seem. In this commercial Constantino is both seductress and the raw material of the soap product which has been made with 3 percent of the artist’s body fat. JENNY MARKETOU breaks through the walls of conventions in TRANSLOCAL: CAMP IN MY TENT, a performative public intervention, that reveals people’s cultural differences in their diverse interpretations of her identity – threat, prostitute, political activist - as they react to the tent she sets up in public spaces around the world. In BRAVE NEW WORLD, THEO ESHETU juxtaposes technologically developed societies and local cultures. NAM JUNE PAIK, in the 1960s and 1970s predicted that a global culture would emerge through technology and the creation of an “information super highway†which has come to be realized as the Internet. GOOD MORNING MR.ORWELL was the first artwork to use telecommunications to enable an intercontinental exchange of culture, broadcasting live via satellite simultaneously between the US, Canada, Germany and South Korea. CRAZY ENGLISH by ZHANG YUAN documents the work of Professor Li Yuang whose unique method of teaching English has reached over 10 million Chinese. Yuang teaches his students to shout in English to instill the fighting spirit that exists in the cultures of the US Europe and Japan in order to build the self-confidence and communications skills needed to become a global superpower in the 21st Century. New codes of culture are evolving in adaptation to the technological revolution, altering our perception and daily patterns. This suggests the possibility of a future of post-human forms of existence and remodeling of the human body, mind and consciousness: SANDMAN by PATRICIA PICCININI, DESKTOP METAPHOR by MATEO ZLATAR and COMPILE by KATHLEEN RUIZ. MONIKA WEISS Phlegethon-Milczenie, 2005, 14:57 Polish-born, New York City based artist Monika Weiss creates environments that relate to the body and to the tension that characterizes specific relationship between biology and culture. In her drawings and multi-media installations, combined with performance and sound, Weiss explores physical properties of the act of drawing, which she combines with references to the ancient and medieval symbols and concepts of the world and the human being. In her installation series Ennoia, the artist immerses herself for several hours inside a water-filled chalice, while a projected image of the immersion and the underwater sounds mirror her action. In her ongoing series, Intervals, Weiss creates drawing landscapes, which are spaces that others may enter and fill with their own actions. Recurring motifs in her works are acts of lying down in an embryo-like position, immersions and the outlining of one's body. “Throughout history thousands, millions of pages of esteemed thoughts and theories, were submitted to destruction. PhlegethonMilczenie speaks of my complex relation to German culture. Books published before the Second World War – German literature and philosophy – become objects of contact with my body, as I lie quietly on them quietly drawing around my silhouette with char coals. I juxtaposed the bird’s view of my action with views of burning fire. I combined sounds of a burning book – Goethe’s “Doctor Faustus†– with voices of Germen speakers reading fragments of poems by Paul Celan. Through the method of filming and photographing my own performances from above, the video becomes a two-dimensional universe resembling a drawing. The last part of the video includes recorded and altered voice of soprano vocalist Anthony Roth Costanzo, I combined fragments from Handel’s The Creation with Pergolesi’s Salve Regina.†Monika Weiss (b. 1964, Poland) is a renowned artist in the US and Europe and her work is in important private and museum collections. www.monika-weiss.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 12:57:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Phlegethon-Milczenie by Monika Weiss at ArteBa, Buenos Aires, May 19-24 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, forgot the subject line... Dear Friends on the Poetics List in Argentina - If any of you happen live in, are traveling to, or know someone in Buenos Aires who may be interested, you are invited to see the video of Monika Weiss, "Phlegethon-Milczenie" as part of ArteBA 2006, May 19 thru May 24, 2006. Please forward to anyone who might like to see the works of all the artists represented there. Salud, - Marc Nasdor ------------------------------------ arteBA 2006 15 Feria de Arte Contemporaneo La Rural, Yellow and Red Pavillions 4476 Cerviño Avenue/2704 Sarmiento Avenue Buenos Aires Argentina May 19 thru May 24 BLACK BOX/WHITE CUBE - VIDEO SPACE CODES OF CULTURE Video Art from 7 Continents Marina Abramovic, Yael Bartana, Jacqueline Bates, Nicola Constantino, Olga Egorova (Tsaplya), Theo Eshetu, Andrea Juan, Marcia Grostein, Jenny Marketou, Shirin Neshat, Nam June Paik, Patricia Piccinini, Kathleen Ruiz, Eder Santos, Marty St. James, Leonid Tishkov, Monika Weiss, Zhang Yuan, Mateo Zlatar Curated by Nina Colosi, Founder, The Project Room, New York Program info: http://www.arteba.org/01/prensa2006-en/prensa06/cajanegra/chelsea.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 20:35:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Joseph, man, glad you asked! There's a new book of his work out that I want to crack open, maybe in a bookstore, see if some of those pieces I've seen in magazines the last few years made it in there and I'll show you. The thing IS I'm NOT saying the poet moved into BRAND NEW styles for the likes of our peers and friends (and others, hehe!) on this list, but what I AM saying is that if you read this later pieces you get to really hear him moving out beyond at least the CONTENT of what he is best known for. AND I suggest looking at that poem of his in the 2005 BEST OF AMERICAN POETRY anthology called "The Beats." I think that's what it's called. Now, I have a theory as to WHY that poem is in that anthology. And the truth is that it's a theory which is not at all grounded in anything but speculation, so I'll keep it to myself. But that poem is Bukowski bitching and griping about NOT being a Beat, NOT wanting to be considered a Beat, etc.. The excerpt below is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Where he gets off onto these tears where his ever-expanding world-view is shown for us. AND I like it! AND dammit I can LIKE this AND then LIKE Silliman's book WOUNDWOOD (which I happen to think is one of THE BEST BOOKS of poetry in the past few years!), AND think my friends are the biggest fucking geniuses alive, like Frank Sherlock, hassen, Chris McCreary, their books, poems, AND like a dozen other things! I don't read novels because I'm not on this planet to kill time, I read poetry because it FEEDS me and keeps me growing up (I'm fifteen in the head by now, hehe!) and I want to sense Love at all its possible temperatures, etc. And Bukowski SEES as best as any poet. And I know we want to wiggle and waggle over line breakage and how the fuck the poem has grown out of the harpoon of the whaling boats of the Great Poet Mothers and Fathers before us, but dammit this bit down below is Bukowski fucking SEEING with beautiful clarity. Yeah-yeah, maybe after the hangover wore off, but SEES! Enough enough, here's an excerpt, like it or not. But you asked, and thanks for asking, CAConrad p.s. and by the way Joseph I ALWAYS mean it when I say Love, so, yeah. ------------- Born like this Into this As the chalk faces smile As Mrs. Death laughs As the elevators break As political landscapes dissolve As the supermarket bag boy holds a college degree As the oily fish spit out their oily prey As the sun is masked We are Born like this Into this Into these carefully mad wars Into the sight of broken factory windows of emptiness Into bars where people no longer speak to each other Into fist fights that end as shootings and knifings Born into this Into hospitals which are so expensive that it's cheaper to die Into lawyers who charge so much it's cheaper to plead guilty Into a country where the jails are full and the madhouses closed Into a place where the masses elevate fools into rich heroes Born into this Walking and living through this Dying because of this Muted because of this Castrated Debauched Disinherited Because of this Fooled by this Used by this Pissed on by this Made crazy and sick by this Made violent Made inhuman By this The heart is blackened The fingers reach for the throat The gun The knife The bomb The fingers reach toward an unresponsive god The fingers reach for the bottle The pill The powder We are born into this sorrowful deadliness We are born into a government 60 years in debt That soon will be unable to even pay the interest on that debt CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:26:59 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Marcacci Subject: Re: Updated List Policies In-Reply-To: <1147437076.446480144a3c4@mail1.buffalo.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit What was updated? -- Bob Marcacci > From: poetics@BUFFALO.EDU > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 08:31:16 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Updated List Policies > > > > The Poetics List > > Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of > Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center > for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) > > Poetics List Editorial Board: > Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino > > Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Poetics Subscription Registration (required) > poetics@buffalo.edu > > Poetics Subscription Requests: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > > Poetics Listserv Archive: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > > Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration > account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is > checked about once per week. > > C O N T E N T S: > 1. 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Thank you, list owners. > "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the Poetics List. We define > 'flaming' as any post that resembles a personal attack or personal > insult to anyone--subscriber or not. This of course includes racist, > sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the > person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while critique > of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main > functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or > criticism of the person. > All best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 03:09:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Updated List Policies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On 14/5/06 11:26 AM, "Bob Marcacci" wrote: > >> What was updated? > > "Sexist" slurs were included with racism and ad hominem arguments in the > undesirable speech guidelines. Thank you, list owners. > > Alison Croggon I there any code dealing with what happens when you get gender-bent through having an androgynous given name? I ask this as one to whom this happens much of the time. (Though I have to say that I'm rather proud of having once been [implicitly] described as the only lesbian poet in the entire history of Scottish poetry. Mind you, this was some time ago.) Robin Roy McGregor Campbell [There is a slightly serious point to this -- my own experience seems to suggest that sex and/or gender codings in at least transcribed language -- I doubt this applies, at least so clearly, to "natural" speech --are much less marked than is commonly thought. I don't go out of my way to pass -- I just naturally (?) assume I sound male -- so it rarely occurs to me that I might be miss-sexed, but it does seems to happen. Guessing, about 50% of the time. Do we all speak Basic Mercurian? R.] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 20:26:02 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: buk & collins etc In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am with dbc on this one, but also I should mention, I do not buy the notion of Buk as alkie, I mean with all he wrote who would have time to be a serious drinker? Seems dubious at best. I have thot the bigger problems with Buk was always how many said they were influenced by him, by his weaker writing, not misogeny, Mark W. The general misandry posed towards all (men are pigs if they say this (oh forgive this one he is gay! please!)) who voice an interest in buk is the problem. I also agree tho, & do not think there is a general characteristic or set of formative words to place the working class into. And Miekal, I disagree, the writers you mentioned are hard to find books of, even us in the most elite set of readers are not as well versed in bp nichol and da levy as we would hope to be let alone let them have the influence of one who is so easy to find. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 23:10:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george j farrah Subject: New website Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Some shameless self-promotion: New website, http://www.georgejosephfarrah.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 13:31:58 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Noon--A Journal Of The Short Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is one of the most beautifully designed and nicely put together magazines that I've ever encountered. The washi papers make each small collection (which usually run to about 100 pages) a tactile delight. Contents range from excellent to a cut above the usual--with a great deal of attention given to experimental forms. Collectors take note. Highly recommended. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 08:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: buk & collins etc In-Reply-To: <20060514032602.5796.qmail@web82211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I've been keeping my ears open locally among the folks that I work with to get a sense of their sense of poetry for the non- poets, for the common person... Asking around at a big party last night, the universal consensus seemed to be that John Trudell was the poet of their generation. Not quite working class poetry, but not someone whose name I've ever seen mentioned on this list. On May 13, 2006, at 10:26 PM, David Baratier wrote: > And Miekal, I disagree, the writers you mentioned are hard to find > books of, even us in the most elite set of readers are not as well > versed in bp nichol and da levy as we would hope to be let alone > let them have the influence of one who is so easy to find. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:52:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII i remember when i was first awakening to poetry's possibilities buying bukowski's books and devouring them whole in french quarter coffee shops. i loved the immediacy and energy of them. here's one that i remember liking very much, from _play the piano drunk like a percussion instrument until the fingers begin to bleed a bit_ (yes, anna, great title!) . . . an apple as memento mori . . . camille apple this is not just an apple this is an experience red green yellow with underlying pits of white wet with cold water I bite into it christ, a white doorway . . . another bite chewing while thinking of an old witch choking to death on an apple skin-- a childhood story. I bite deeply chew and swallow there is a feeling of waterfalls and endlessness there is a mixture of electricity and hope yet now halfway through the apple some depressive feelings begin it's ending I'm working toward the core afraid of seeds and stems there's a funeral march beginning in Venice, a dark old man has died after a lifetime of pain I throw away the apple early as a girl in a white dress walks by my window followed by a boy half her size in blue pants and striped shirt I leave off a small belch and stare at a dirty ashtray > I'll take your love, CA. Thanks, if you really mean it. And, like you, who read Bishop, I too read Bukowski, and a lot of it, though I found his poems ultimately uninteresting. That's why I was asking for some specific poems that really wowed you, so I could focus my attention on them. And maybe you could explain what it is about those specific poems that you find interesting. I have a pretty open mind when it comes to poetry--and would certainly never say that Buk isn't writing poetry, or that he's writing bad poetry, only that he's written many poems that haven't interested me too much as poems, that is, on the level of language. Best, Joseph --- Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then > Joseph) > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: buk & collins etc In-Reply-To: <954C086B-4244-4488-8837-0DBD55FED55B@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i used to teach trudell all the time; order his cassettes, etc. maybe i shd start again. he's more spoken word-type. so it makes sense that his name wouldn't come up a lot on the list... At 8:41 AM -0500 5/14/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >Actually, I've been keeping my ears open locally among the folks >that I work with to get a sense of their sense of poetry for the >non-poets, for the common person... Asking around at a big party >last night, the universal consensus seemed to be that John Trudell >was the poet of their generation. Not quite working class poetry, >but not someone whose name I've ever seen mentioned on this list. > > >On May 13, 2006, at 10:26 PM, David Baratier wrote: > >> And Miekal, I disagree, the writers you mentioned are hard to find >>books of, even us in the most elite set of readers are not as well >>versed in bp nichol and da levy as we would hope to be let alone >>let them have the influence of one who is so easy to find. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:07:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Original sin, anyone? At 9:52 AM -0500 5/14/06, Camille Martin wrote: >i remember when i was first awakening to poetry's possibilities buying >bukowski's books and devouring them whole in french quarter coffee shops. i >loved the immediacy and energy of them. here's one that i remember liking >very much, from _play the piano drunk like a percussion instrument until >the fingers begin to bleed a bit_ (yes, anna, great title!) . . . an apple >as memento mori . . . > >camille > > >apple > >this is not just an apple >this is an experience >red green yellow >with underlying pits of white >wet with cold water >I bite into it >christ, a white doorway . . . > >another bite >chewing >while thinking of an old witch >choking to death on an apple skin-- >a childhood story. > >I bite deeply >chew and swallow > >there is a feeling of waterfalls >and endlessness > >there is a mixture of electricity and >hope > >yet now >halfway through the apple >some depressive feelings begin > >it's ending >I'm working toward the core >afraid of seeds and stems > >there's a funeral march beginning in Venice, >a dark old man has died after a lifetime of pain > >I throw away the apple early >as a girl in a white dress walks by my window > >followed by a boy half her size >in blue pants and striped shirt > >I leave off a small belch >and stare at a dirty >ashtray > > > >> I'll take your love, CA. Thanks, if you really mean >it. And, like you, who read Bishop, I too read >Bukowski, and a lot of it, though I found his poems >ultimately uninteresting. That's why I was asking for >some specific poems that really wowed you, so I could >focus my attention on them. And maybe you could >explain what it is about those specific poems that you >find interesting. > >I have a pretty open mind when it comes to poetry--and >would certainly never say that Buk isn't writing >poetry, or that he's writing bad poetry, only that >he's written many poems that haven't interested me too >much as poems, that is, on the level of language. > >Best, >Joseph > >--- Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > >> Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then >> Joseph) >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 09:04:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: buk & collins etc In-Reply-To: <954C086B-4244-4488-8837-0DBD55FED55B@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed But mIEKAL, is the person that attends the same party pretty likely to know poetry at all, moreso than some other non-poetry-reading "common person"? John Trudell has a pretty wide reputation as an activist, musician, and poet, but it's a very specific reputation within specific local and activist communities (at least that's my take, but I don't know him well & you can certainly correct me). It still seems to me much more likely that non-poets who are not generally involved with poetry are much more likely to have heard about, and perhaps read, some Bukowski or Billy Collins or Allen Ginsberg, than they are likely to have read Trudell or any poets primarily active on their own local scene. I think the idea of the local is apropos here, because for a lot of people who ARE involved with poetry, their experience is primarily local, and, working class or not, they are more likely to know (or have known, depending on the specific time period) the work and person of a John Tuschen in Madison Wisconsin (if they are there) or a Will Inman in Tucson Arizona (if they are there), or any number of other names fairly specific to local communities, and even to have a significant relation with that poet's work, which helps usher them into a particular poetry scene (and perhaps beyond that scene as well). In Tucson, for example, in the 1970's through 1990's, I think it much more likely that someone would, without much experience in poetry, have happened into a Will Inman reading or workshop and gradually become involved in both their own poetry and Will's and that of specific local others, than that they would have had experience with either Bukowski or Collins. And Inman would more likely have led them fairly quickly to Blake or Jeffers or Meridel LeSueur than to Bukowski or Collins. charles At 06:41 AM 5/14/2006, you wrote: >Actually, I've been keeping my ears open locally among the folks that >I work with to get a sense of their sense of poetry for the non- poets, >for the common person... Asking around at a big party last >night, the universal consensus seemed to be that John Trudell was the >poet of their generation. Not quite working class poetry, but not >someone whose name I've ever seen mentioned on this list. > > >On May 13, 2006, at 10:26 PM, David Baratier wrote: > >> And Miekal, I disagree, the writers you mentioned are hard to find >>books of, even us in the most elite set of readers are not as well >>versed in bp nichol and da levy as we would hope to be let alone >>let them have the influence of one who is so easy to find. > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:33:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anna Vitale Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline oh my god! the apple poem is the only poem from that book that i still remember! i'm so glad you've sent it out! sheesh! fabulous! Anna On 5/14/06, Camille Martin wrote: > > i remember when i was first awakening to poetry's possibilities buying > bukowski's books and devouring them whole in french quarter coffee shops. > i > loved the immediacy and energy of them. here's one that i remember liking > very much, from _play the piano drunk like a percussion instrument until > the fingers begin to bleed a bit_ (yes, anna, great title!) . . . an appl= e > as memento mori . . . > > camille > > > apple > > this is not just an apple > this is an experience > red green yellow > with underlying pits of white > wet with cold water > I bite into it > christ, a white doorway . . . > > another bite > chewing > while thinking of an old witch > choking to death on an apple skin-- > a childhood story. > > I bite deeply > chew and swallow > > there is a feeling of waterfalls > and endlessness > > there is a mixture of electricity and > hope > > yet now > halfway through the apple > some depressive feelings begin > > it's ending > I'm working toward the core > afraid of seeds and stems > > there's a funeral march beginning in Venice, > a dark old man has died after a lifetime of pain > > I throw away the apple early > as a girl in a white dress walks by my window > > followed by a boy half her size > in blue pants and striped shirt > > I leave off a small belch > and stare at a dirty > ashtray > > > > > I'll take your love, CA. Thanks, if you really mean > it. And, like you, who read Bishop, I too read > Bukowski, and a lot of it, though I found his poems > ultimately uninteresting. That's why I was asking for > some specific poems that really wowed you, so I could > focus my attention on them. And maybe you could > explain what it is about those specific poems that you > find interesting. > > I have a pretty open mind when it comes to poetry--and > would certainly never say that Buk isn't writing > poetry, or that he's writing bad poetry, only that > he's written many poems that haven't interested me too > much as poems, that is, on the level of language. > > Best, > Joseph > > --- Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > > > Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then > > Joseph) > > > > > --=20 live more: annavitale.blogspot.com www.myspace.com/meltingmoments ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:35:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anna Vitale Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline but it's not as good as i remember :( but the christ, a white doorway, that's still pretty good. On 5/14/06, Anna Vitale wrote: > > oh my god! the apple poem is the only poem from that book that i still > remember! > i'm so glad you've sent it out! > > sheesh! > fabulous! > Anna > > > On 5/14/06, Camille Martin wrote: > > > > i remember when i was first awakening to poetry's possibilities buying > > bukowski's books and devouring them whole in french quarter coffee > > shops. i > > loved the immediacy and energy of them. here's one that i remember > > liking > > very much, from _play the piano drunk like a percussion instrument unti= l > > the fingers begin to bleed a bit_ (yes, anna, great title!) . . . an > > apple > > as memento mori . . . > > > > camille > > > > > > apple > > > > this is not just an apple > > this is an experience > > red green yellow > > with underlying pits of white > > wet with cold water > > I bite into it > > christ, a white doorway . . . > > > > another bite > > chewing > > while thinking of an old witch > > choking to death on an apple skin-- > > a childhood story. > > > > I bite deeply > > chew and swallow > > > > there is a feeling of waterfalls > > and endlessness > > > > there is a mixture of electricity and > > hope > > > > yet now > > halfway through the apple > > some depressive feelings begin > > > > it's ending > > I'm working toward the core > > afraid of seeds and stems > > > > there's a funeral march beginning in Venice, > > a dark old man has died after a lifetime of pain > > > > I throw away the apple early > > as a girl in a white dress walks by my window > > > > followed by a boy half her size > > in blue pants and striped shirt > > > > I leave off a small belch > > and stare at a dirty > > ashtray > > > > > > > > > I'll take your love, CA. Thanks, if you really mean > > it. And, like you, who read Bishop, I too read > > Bukowski, and a lot of it, though I found his poems > > ultimately uninteresting. That's why I was asking for > > some specific poems that really wowed you, so I could > > focus my attention on them. And maybe you could > > explain what it is about those specific poems that you > > find interesting. > > > > I have a pretty open mind when it comes to poetry--and > > would certainly never say that Buk isn't writing > > poetry, or that he's writing bad poetry, only that > > he's written many poems that haven't interested me too > > much as poems, that is, on the level of language. > > > > Best, > > Joseph > > > > --- Craig Allen Conrad wrote: > > > > > Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then > > > Joseph) > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > live more: annavitale.blogspot.com > www.myspace.com/meltingmoments > --=20 live more: annavitale.blogspot.com www.myspace.com/meltingmoments ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:08:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: buk & collins etc In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20060514083905.02a56988@mail.theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 14, 2006, at 11:04 AM, charles alexander wrote: > But mIEKAL, is the person that attends the same party pretty likely > to know poetry at all, moreso than some other non-poetry-reading > "common person"? I'm speaking about SW Wisconsin where the cultural climate is considerably different than in Madison. Certainly folks out here have heard of Ginsberg & Snyder & possibly Corso. I would venture that none of these imaginary non-poets have heard of Billy Collins or Bukowski. You have to keep in mind that this area has had 3 generations of back to landers, & what little economy exists out here is powerfully driven by green & eco-organic types. We have the largest concentration of organic farms in the country. It's a pretty unique profile of folks out here but still not all that culturally diverse. In Madison Bukowski seems to be a household word & its quite common to find his books in the windows of used bookstores. But this is largely due to Tuschen & him bringing Corso, Burroughs, & some of the baby Beats to town in the 80s. But I would argue that the street poetry ethos that has ruled the non-academic scene poetry scene in Madison for 30 years or more isn't about reading books & knowing poems. It's about partying, having a good time & agitating against the status quo. It's really closer in alliance to slam & spoken word. > John Trudell has a pretty wide reputation as an activist, musician, > and poet, but it's a very specific reputation within specific local > and activist communities (at least that's my take, but I don't know > him well & you can certainly correct me). It still seems to me much > more likely that non-poets who are not generally involved with > poetry are much more likely to have heard about, and perhaps read, > some Bukowski or Billy Collins or Allen Ginsberg, than they are > likely to have read Trudell or any poets primarily active on their > own local scene. > > I think the idea of the local is apropos here, because for a lot of > people who ARE involved with poetry, their experience is primarily > local, and, working class or not, they are more likely to know (or > have known, depending on the specific time period) the work and > person of a John Tuschen in Madison Wisconsin (if they are there) > or a Will Inman in Tucson Arizona (if they are there), or any > number of other names fairly specific to local communities, and > even to have a significant relation with that poet's work, which > helps usher them into a particular poetry scene (and perhaps beyond > that scene as well). In Tucson, for example, in the 1970's through > 1990's, I think it much more likely that someone would, without > much experience in poetry, have happened into a Will Inman reading > or workshop and gradually become involved in both their own poetry > and Will's and that of specific local others, than that they would > have had experience with either Bukowski or Collins. And Inman > would more likely have led them fairly quickly to Blake or Jeffers > or Meridel LeSueur than to Bukowski or Collins. > > charles > > At 06:41 AM 5/14/2006, you wrote: >> Actually, I've been keeping my ears open locally among the folks that >> I work with to get a sense of their sense of poetry for the non- >> poets, for the common person... Asking around at a big party last >> night, the universal consensus seemed to be that John Trudell was the >> poet of their generation. Not quite working class poetry, but not >> someone whose name I've ever seen mentioned on this list. >> >> >> On May 13, 2006, at 10:26 PM, David Baratier wrote: >> >>> And Miekal, I disagree, the writers you mentioned are hard to find >>> books of, even us in the most elite set of readers are not as well >>> versed in bp nichol and da levy as we would hope to be let alone >>> let them have the influence of one who is so easy to find. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 13:13:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Open Mic, Albany, NY: Roberta Gould featured Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Open Mic for Poets at the Lark Street Bookshop 215 Lark Street, Albany, NY (near State St.) Thursday, May 18, 2006=09 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: Roberta Gould $3.00 donation. Your host, once again, Dan Wilcox. Roberta Gould's 8th book Pacing the Wind will be out this summer. Her=20= work is concise and communicative, varied in theme. She has edited=20 several poetry publications and lived and worked in Mexico. Tyrant by Roberta Gould I couldn=92t control the weather, floods storms or winds so I tried to control you keeping you under my thumb fleas I=92d squash if you tried to jump free little flies I=92d press to nothing if you attempted to wing off it was impossible to live with my kind and with the other creatures yet I wouldn=92t slit my throat refusing to die The only reality was My OWN What I mean is My fillings and scratches My spasms and thirst, My twitches and itches Refusing to die # =20= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 13:14:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Common In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 12, 2006, at 8:02 PM, George Bowering wrote: > I was just wondering, while sitting in the sun at the bALL game today: > > What do Charles Bukowski and Diaghelev have in common? They don't dance much anymore. Today's Special Theory of Harmony http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 10:23:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James DenBoer Subject: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The same initials -- James DenBoer 330 N Street #18 Sacramento CA 95814 jamesdb@paperwrk.com http://www.paperwrk.com James DenBoer is a poet and translator; his books of poetry have been published by University of Pittsburgh, Christopher's Books, Blue Thunder Books, Glass Eye Books, PalOMine Press, and Rattlesnake Press. Recent work has appeared in The Iowa Review, Circumference, Passport, Poetry Now, and elsewhere. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 14:43:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: new at e-x-c-h-a-n-g-e-v-a-l-u-e-s MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My interview with Gary Sullivan is up. Hie thee to http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:28:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit It is a terrible poem, really as if written by someone who has never read a poem. The inability to understand the difference between the use of a comma and the going ahead without one, for example, seems not to be understood (by writer and...?); i.e.--it is not understood that a comma is EQUAL to any other orthographic mark when it comes to meaning and pace, etc. On 14-May-06, at 9:33 AM, Anna Vitale wrote: > oh my god! the apple poem is the only poem from that book that i still > remember! > i'm so glad you've sent it out! > > sheesh! > fabulous! > Anna > > On 5/14/06, Camille Martin wrote: >> >> i remember when i was first awakening to poetry's possibilities buying >> bukowski's books and devouring them whole in french quarter coffee >> shops. >> i >> loved the immediacy and energy of them. here's one that i remember >> liking >> very much, from _play the piano drunk like a percussion instrument >> until >> the fingers begin to bleed a bit_ (yes, anna, great title!) . . . an >> apple >> as memento mori . . . >> >> camille >> >> >> apple >> >> this is not just an apple >> this is an experience >> red green yellow >> with underlying pits of white >> wet with cold water >> I bite into it >> christ, a white doorway . . . >> >> another bite >> chewing >> while thinking of an old witch >> choking to death on an apple skin-- >> a childhood story. >> >> I bite deeply >> chew and swallow >> >> there is a feeling of waterfalls >> and endlessness >> >> there is a mixture of electricity and >> hope >> >> yet now >> halfway through the apple >> some depressive feelings begin >> >> it's ending >> I'm working toward the core >> afraid of seeds and stems >> >> there's a funeral march beginning in Venice, >> a dark old man has died after a lifetime of pain >> >> I throw away the apple early >> as a girl in a white dress walks by my window >> >> followed by a boy half her size >> in blue pants and striped shirt >> >> I leave off a small belch >> and stare at a dirty >> ashtray >> >> >> >> > I'll take your love, CA. Thanks, if you really mean >> it. And, like you, who read Bishop, I too read >> Bukowski, and a lot of it, though I found his poems >> ultimately uninteresting. That's why I was asking for >> some specific poems that really wowed you, so I could >> focus my attention on them. And maybe you could >> explain what it is about those specific poems that you >> find interesting. >> >> I have a pretty open mind when it comes to poetry--and >> would certainly never say that Buk isn't writing >> poetry, or that he's writing bad poetry, only that >> he's written many poems that haven't interested me too >> much as poems, that is, on the level of language. >> >> Best, >> Joseph >> >> --- Craig Allen Conrad wrote: >> >> > Hehehe! Yeah! That's GREAT! (first Gwyn, and then >> > Joseph) >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > live more: annavitale.blogspot.com > www.myspace.com/meltingmoments > > George Harry Bowering, Lives with a groaning dog. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 12:30:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins and Charles Bernstein Have in Common? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 14-May-06, at 10:23 AM, James DenBoer wrote: > The same initials As whom? > -- > James DenBoer 330 N Street #18 Sacramento CA 95814 > jamesdb@paperwrk.com http://www.paperwrk.com > > James DenBoer is a poet and translator; his books of poetry have been > published by University of Pittsburgh, Christopher's Books, Blue > Thunder > Books, Glass Eye Books, PalOMine Press, and Rattlesnake Press. Recent > work has appeared in The Iowa Review, Circumference, Passport, Poetry > Now, and elsewhere. > > Geo. Harry Bowering One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:57:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII It is a terrible sentence, really as if written by someone who has never read a sentence. > The inability to understand the difference between the use of a comma and the going ahead without one, for example, seems not to be understood (by writer and...?); i.e.--it is not understood that a comma is EQUAL to any other orthographic mark when it comes to meaning and pace, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 16:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes--when the Judge read me my sentence, it was indeed a terrible one. >From: Camille Martin >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: What do Buk and Billy Collins Have in Common? >Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 15:57:12 -0500 > >It is a terrible sentence, really as if written by someone who has never >read a sentence. > > > The inability to understand the difference between the use of a comma >and >the going ahead without one, for example, seems not to be understood (by >writer and...?); i.e.--it is not understood that a comma is EQUAL to any >other orthographic mark when it comes to meaning and pace, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 18:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Canadian poet collaborations (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline "Poets of Canada": please see the message below from Andrea Strudensky. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andrea Strudensky Date: May 14, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: hi and help To: lori.emerson@gmail.com Dear Poets of Canada, I am interested in hearing from any Canadian Poet who is working in collaboration with another poet on a project. I have recently been engaged in one for the first time and I am amazed at the poetry and ideas generated from it. I want to propose to a few literary journals the idea of an issue focused on "Canadian poets in collaboration." I am also the co-editor of a journal out of UB called "Pilot" - our inaugural issue is coming out this September and features, among others, the work of Karen Mac Cormack, Lisa Robertson, Rachel Zolf, Angela Szcepaniak, Geoffrey Hlibchuk, and Derek Beaulieu. I would love to devote a portion of our next issue to collaborative projects. So please get back to me by May 31 at strudensky@gmail.com if you or someone you know is engaging in a collaborative project or has recently completed one and then I can make the proposal with confidence. Thanks and hope everyone is well. Andrea Strudensky Buffalo, Ny ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 16:29:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Bukowski and gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Howdy David: But isn't it a little interesting, perhaps even ironic, how many men on this list have taken a moment to disagree with me on whether gender issues in Bukowski are one of the major problems of his writing? If we all didn't know better, one might be tempted to say that gender problems in contemporary poetry seem to still be quite significant. On the issue of the range possible in white working class voices, I would strongly urge everyone to read Jim Tully's 1924 autobiography Beggars of Life. It may be the best book written on the subject of what it means to be white, male, and poor in the United States. Tully's insights into gender and race issues--among a lot else--go to show exactly how aware of these problems white working class men can be. Just FYI, Tully became a homeless itinerant worker at the age of 14, and learned to read by stealing books from libraries. Beggars of Life, to my mind, is a better book even than Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London. Mark Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 20:26:02 -0700 From: David Baratier Subject: Re: buk & collins etc I have thot the bigger problems with Buk was always how many said they were influenced by him, by his weaker writing, not misogeny, Mark W. The general misandry posed towards all (men are pigs if they say this (oh forgive this one he is gay! please!)) who voice an interest in buk is the problem. I also agree tho, & do not think there is a general characteristic or set of formative words to place the working class into. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:40:53 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender In-Reply-To: <20060514232928.3516.qmail@web60011.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 15/5/06 9:29 AM, "Mark Wallace" wrote: > Beggars of Life, to my mind, is a better > book even than Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and > London. That's some recommendation - although of course Orwell was slumming it...I'll try to track it down. > But isn't it a little interesting, perhaps even > ironic, how many men on this list have taken a moment > to disagree with me on whether gender issues in > Bukowski are one of the major problems of his writing? > > If we all didn't know better, one might be tempted to > say that gender problems in contemporary poetry seem > to still be quite significant. Perish the thought Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 18:18:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: China -- Poetry -- Freedom -- INdividual In-Reply-To: <20060514032602.5796.qmail@web82211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hotmail has been down since Gates' remarks to President Hu. Not surprisingly, it's back following FT article. http://news.ft.com/cms/s/7d186064-e1e2-11da-bf4c-0000779e2340.html "Foreigner men" come to make money, get girlfriends they can exploit and find for mothering and house keeping duties, along with racialized fucks--oh, and visas. Women, not unlike those middle class lasses seen in South America, often come for noblesse savage scews. Sad thing, but all involved benefit from this opportunistic relationship. Everyone knows what they are getting. Too bad, however, neither Tibetans or Kazaks or Uyghurs, or the myriad of minorities have much say in their choices. Oh, to clarify, white folk do this, and do so with little concern (occupying a privilaged status), while often cursing places like Israel for its own mess. Art scene's the same, if honest, very different from freedom of Prague in 90s. We all know what we cannot say, which, to be honest, is most everything. So the bar is really low, as far as quality and what/who is being informed. See, everything goes back to the State, and these instruments of agency, born out of a quite different ideology, reinforce what is otherwise facade. To reinforce that what is happening behind this veneer is somehow as beneficial as what it entails outside the bubble. Just came back from West China, Xingjiang, and was a sad, and additional case of occupation, disortion, extra reaffirmations of what we already know (if honest), and that is that totalitarianism is a bad thing, and I'm thinking of the individual (because we can live in a community and still care about the one, less we are willing to suffer our own abridgement of rights with little gripe). Likewise, with all the aid, food around, billions Japan has lent, amount of money all these Chinese companies (too often State, which means the money goes you know where) there is really little excuse for why any of this obscenity should be tolerated or encouraged. I'm out for good in few days and feel both tense and relieved. It would be a big mistake, and my wife is from former Czechoslovakia, and, too, it would be a big mistake to minimize the barbarity of the Soviets, because only middle class elites from places like France, England, and the US mythologize their contribution to the war effort, to not be concerned about the dignity of the individual. And that is our tradition. And I could, realistically, go to jail for my rants (and how do I know this, because of the margins we occupy in this nation). Should the Kurds have a place, some plot on which to, well, simply be safe, or those who are oppressed here, or there, or elsewhere. I thought these arguements were already settled? It's all about the Olympics, face (mien), rising out of shadow and errors of thousands of years of fuedalism and Mao (the countries more successful and largely mythical warlord). I need some advice from everyone about a program I'm starting in India (Around Smurfland?! -- clearly this is coded). I don't much care about anyone's elitism or distain for me or my ideas, the way I communicate, how hotdog I might come across, but I would deeply and most sincerely appreciate your minds. Fact is, I went and am now going back. AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Get amazing travel prices for air and hotel in one click on Yahoo! FareChase ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:38:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, what exactly are the problems with Bukowski and gender? He was NOT a misogynist. The word misogynist is a very serious word and not to be taken lightly. HOW was he one? Where do you read this? What? Where? He never EVER beat women, never EVER mistreated women. In fact every woman ever interviewed about him who was either a lover or a friend has had nothing but great things to say! Disagree with you? Yes, I have to. I'm COMPELLED to speak out when I see someone being unfairly judged or mistreated. It comes with the territory of being a queer and constantly judged. I have KNOWN misogynists, and they're scum. And Bukowski was not one of them. Not only did Bukowski NOT beat women he also didn't talk down to them. He Loved them! Why are straight men crucified for liking women I just don't get it!? Can a healthy appetite for sex actually be that bad? And by the way he was also VERY supportive of women poets. He was also published by women editors. The editors of PEARL MAGAZINE loved him, two women. He was a loud guy Mark, and arrogant, but the profile doesn't include these horrible judgments you make. I'm a loud guy, why am I not a misogynist then? Why, well maybe because I'm NOT a misogynist, JUST LOUD! AND BY THE WAY Mark, you say the "men" on this List, as though you haven't noticed some "women" on this List who have some okay things to say about Bukowski. Why are YOU just singling out the "men" on the List? Don't the opinions of women count? And here I thought you were busy defending women. Why am I always the queer defending straight guys? It's so fucking weird I can't even believe it! I'm GLAD I'M NOT A STRAIGHT GUY! GEESH! You can be the nicest fucking guy on Earth and get called the WORST POSSIBLE names just for liking sex and being LOUD! OY! And for LIKING beer! Beer's great! I fucking LOVE beer! In my neck of the woods we drink Yuengling, and it's wonderful, especially with a nice rich cigarette! And I live in a city where we can still smoke and drink INSIDE! And they'll have to drag me out the door by my fucking hair if they ever ban either! What a ridiculous country this is sometimes! The government does NOTHING to DuPont for polluting the rivers and soil with chemicals, Exxon has one of the WORST oil spills in history, and NEITHER company pays a dime to clean it up. But in some cities if you light up a cigarette in a bar (NOT a day-care mind you, but a bar!) you get a ticket for 200 dollars, AND thrown out onto the sidewalk without being able to finish your delicious beer! BASTARDS! CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:58:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And as far as gender and poetry in general these days... In Philadelphia there are just as many women writing as there are men, and no one is treating anyone different for gender's sake. There are a LOT of women writing poetry all over the place it seems, AND editing magazines, presses, etc., as well as teaching poetry, teaching creative writing. One of my oldest friends teaches a class on Beat Women Poets in a women's prison in North Carolina, and she says it's changing lives. I'm not saying things are 100 percent everywhere, but if the genius women poets in Philadelphia have anything to say about it, THIS WORLD is going to MAKE ROOM DAMMIT! CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 20:00:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: China -- Poetry -- Freedom -- INdividual MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All, Know that prior e-mail was sporadic in its observations and was written quickly. Thoughts zoom faster than typed text. Apologize. Project is a press and school for refugees. We've both admin, edu experience, are pulling together our own funds, but would MOST SINCERELY any suggests related to distribution, publishing, organizing submissions. The idea is to do this in the most cost effective manner without compromising integrity of intent. AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 00:45:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hot Whiskey Press Subject: *Parad e R ain* by Michael Koshkin & Hot Whiskey Reading In-Reply-To: <4b2211bd0605142344v57030fdchb7c1ef7bfdc8f85@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Greetings Folks, Very pleased to briefly announce two things: 1. *Parad e R ain* by Michael Koshkin has been released by Big Game Books. from Maureen Thorson: "Big Game Books is very proud to present Michael Koshkin's Parad e R ain, a meditation on the joyfulness of the flesh, with detours on the delights of "my happy bottom" and the headwear favored by danger itself." To obtain a copy follow this link: http://www.reenhead.com/biggame/biggame.html 2. Hot Whiskey Presents A Belated Insuring the Wicker Man Reading (in Bould= er) Thursday May 18th at Trident Booksellers (in the backyard) with: --Joseph S. Cooper --Jared Hayes --Sabrina Calle --Andrew Peterson This event is FREE! Trident Booksellers 940 Pearl St Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 443-3133 Contact: hotwhiskeypress@gmail.com Hope you can join us for this if you're in the area. We've attached a pdf of the poster for the event. This will be the first of a monthly series. Feel free to contact us if you are interested in setting up a reading in Boulder. And please spread the word! yours, Michael and Jen -- Hot Whiskey Press www.hotwhiskeyblog.blogspot.com www.hotwhiskeypress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 00:08:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender In-Reply-To: <20060514232928.3516.qmail@web60011.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 14-May-06, at 4:29 PM, Mark Wallace wrote: > Howdy David: > > But isn't it a little interesting, perhaps even > ironic, how many men on this list have taken a moment > to disagree with me on whether gender issues in > Bukowski are one of the major problems of his writing? > As I recall it, the question was whether sexism were the MAIN fault or problem. gb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:21:09 +0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Re: buk & collins etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As I recall, back in the 80s I had a cassette tape of John Trudell's titled "But This Isn't El Salvador." (Where did that go?) Unlike the recitations with blues rock on his Ryko Disk release (still thinking way back), the music that accompanied his poems on "But This Isn't El Salvador" was more *indigenous*. That is, if I'm remembering the name correctly. -----Original Message----- From: mIEKAL aND [mailto:dtv@MWT.NET]=20 Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 5:41 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: buk & collins etc Actually, I've been keeping my ears open locally among the folks that =20 I work with to get a sense of their sense of poetry for the non-=20 poets, for the common person... Asking around at a big party last =20 night, the universal consensus seemed to be that John Trudell was the =20 poet of their generation. Not quite working class poetry, but not =20 someone whose name I've ever seen mentioned on this list. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:08:05 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: katharina born Subject: Nicolas Born and American Poets (Blackmountain, Beat etc.) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=B4m the daughter of the german poet and novelist Nicolas Born, who was = strongly influenced by American Poets of the sixties and seventies and - = togehter with Rolf Dieter Brinkmann - brought these influences to German = contemporary 70s poetry. I reedited his poems two years ago with great = success (Gedichte, Wallstein Verlag 2004, Price for best German poetry = edition of 2004) and now am preparing an edition of his correspondence.=20 I am now looking for anybody still in posession of letters of Nicolas = Born in the United States.=20 Born stayed at the University of Iowas International Writers Workshop in = 1969/1970 and was translated by Anselm Hollo, Eric Torgersen and others. = He further corresponded and met with John Batki, Kenneth Koch, Charles = Bukowski, Allan Ginsberg, Robert Creeley and others. Born translated = among other works Kenneth Koch=B4s poems in German in the early = seventies. And he edited a micro - anthology for Luchterhand Verlag with = poems from Ashbury, Ron Padgett, Berrigan, Hollo and others. Born died = in 1979 (Nicolas was his artists name, before 1965 he called himself = Klaus J=FCrgen Born). I already contacted major archives (University of = Connecticut, Stanford, Fraser, Washington U.). I would be really thankful for any further advise, help, support of = about where I could find my father=B4s letters. I=B4m also interested in = anyone=B4s memories / impressions of Nicolas Born from his time in the = States, in manuscripts he might have send, or other material. Thanks, Katharina Born kborn@online.fr katharinaborn@web.de ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:20:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ian davidson Subject: bukowski and message for alison croggon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hi alison been trying to e-mail you but it keeps bouncing back saying your inbox is full. oh and to any others coincidentally i re-read bukowski recently after not doing so for a long time. wonderful stories in so many ways but the gender politics make your hair stand on end. I wouldn't conflate working class and sexist. I belong to at least two social classes at the last count and wouldn't distinguish between them in that respect, although their expressions of it may be different. the more privileged are generally better at keeping their mouth shut in order to sustain their privilege. or working through laws, or constitutions to keep power and control rather than someone like bukwoski shouting the odds in the middle of the street. sly lot they are. I think george oppen said something like that about class. don't you love george oppen? love to all ian ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 06:44:00 -0700 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , Wom Po , Lucifer Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS hydrogen jukebox Ginsberg, Cezanne, and a literary device in Howl The School of Quietude – a note The best work of American fiction as viewed by the New York Times The closing of Cody’s a memoir of Berkeley bookstores The poetics of Stephanie Young’s Bay Poetics The role of the typewriter on margins and spacing in contemporary poetry Bay Poetics – a new anthology with 110 poets The latest champ from Chester County Small presses account for half of all book sales The Paris Review Interviews online - watching a medium grow up Robert Smithson at Dia:Beacon - Thinking and art What the Poetry Foundation really thinks as viewed from its survey of Poetry in America The next Democratic Debacle Bob Casey in Pennsylvania Saving the internet The Da Vinci Code is to great literature as Indiana Jones is to great cinema The future of online publication What people are actually reading and where they submit their poetry http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:21:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 5-15-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SPECIAL EVENT=21=21=21 A POET IN BUFFALO: A COMMUNITY CELEBRATION OF THE LIFE AND WORK OF ROBERT CREELEY (1926-2005) ON THE OCCASION OF HIS 80TH BIRTHDAY Two days of events: SATURDAY May 20, 7-12 P.M., The Church, 341 Delaware Avenue, =245 Readings by AMIRI BARAKA, JOANNE KYGER, TOM RAWORTH PLUS: Buffalo poets, writers and friends read; films on Robert Creeley in the Hal= lwallls cinema; live music and DJ; audiostations to hear Creeley read; an exhibitio= n of Creeley publications by the Poetry Collection at UB; and a midnight toast t= o Bob as he turns 80. SUNDAY May 21, 2-4 p.m., Albnright-Knox Art Gallery, Free. Two films on Creeley by Bruce Jackson and a world premier musical compositi= on based on a Creeley's work by David Felder.=00 Sponsored by: Albright-Knox Art Gallery, Hallwalls, Just Buffalo Literary = Center, Righteous Babe Records, Samuel P. Capen Chair of American Culture, Talking= Leaves Books, & UB Poetry Collection. Media sponsors BUFFALO SPREE & ARTVOICE. Some accommodations for writers provided by Elmwood Village Inn:= Honu House. THE BIG READ FAHRENHEIT ALL NIGHT AT THE ALBRIGHT-KNOX 3 p.m. Back to Back Bradbury Films: The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, Directed= by Eug=C3=A8ne Louri=C3=A9, and It Came from Outer Space, Directed by Jack Arn= old, 1953 7 p.m. Special Tour: Science Fiction 8 p.m. Lecture: Prediciting the Past, Remembering the Future, by Ray Bradbu= ry biographer Sam Weller, including a live chat by phone with Ray Bradbury. 9:30 p.m. Book Signing with Sam Weller DISCUSSION GROUPS THIS WEEK Eden Public Library 2901 E. Church Street, Eden Wednesday, May 17th 7 pm Riverside Branch Library 820 Tonawanda Street, Buffalo Thursday, May 18 6 pm=00 For a complete schedule, go to our website and click on the =22Big Read=22 = logo. OPEN READINGS The Book Corner 1801 Main St., Niagara Falls (Meets monthly on the third Thursday) Featured: Gene Grabiner Thursday, May 18, 7 P.M. 10 slots for open readers Rust Belt Books 202 Allen Street, Buffalo (Meets the monthly on the third Sunday) Featured: Kristi Meal and Dave Lewitzky Sunday, May 21, 7 P.M. 10 slots for open readers SPOKEN ARTS RADIO, with host Sarah Campbell A joint production of Just Buffalo Literary Center and WBFO 88.7 FM Airs Sundays during Weekend Edition at 8:35 a.m. and Mondays during Morning Edition at 6:35 A.M. & 8:35 a.m. Upcoming Features: Ray Bradbury biographer Sam Weller, May 14 & 15 All shows are now available for download on our website, including features= on John Ashbery, Paul Auster, Lyn Hejinian and more http://www.justbuffalo.org/events/sar.shtml JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery. Group meets 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call fo= r details. LITERARY BUFFALO TALKING LEAVES BOOKS Jane Jacobs Celebration Panel Discussion on the late urban planner, featuring: Tim Tielman, Cynthia= Van Ness, Russell Pawlak, Allita Steward, and Hank Bromley Wednesday, May 17, 7 p.m., Main St. Store Charles Benoit Reading and booksigning for: Relative Danger Wednesday, May 17, 7 p.m., Elmwood Store CEPA GALLERY 1199 SEIU=E2=80=99s Bread and Roses Cultural Project presents=E2=80=A6 =E2=80=9CUnseenamerica=E2=80=9D Book Launch and Art Exhibit The art and writing of workers =E2=80=A6.. in their book, in their words an= d in their photographs. Featuring 8 WNY Worker-Artists Thursday, May 18, 2006 -- 5:30pm until 7:30 pm At CEPA Gallery, 617 Main Street, Buffalo, NY This is the same book featured on Anderson Cooper 360 on CNN and initially= launched at the Guggenheim Museum in New York City, May 1. UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:18:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Jenks & Moxley at SPT this Fri 5/19 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic is pleased to present a reading by Philip Jenks & Jennifer Moxley Friday, May 19, 2006 at 7:30 p.m. Philip Jenks joins us in celebration of his second book, My First Painting Will Be "The Accuser" (Zephyr Press), which has been nominated for an Oregon Book Award. The Chicago Review described his earlier book, On the Cave You Live In (Flood Editions), as: “Inspired speech recording its own fall into dead letter [….] the poems of Philip Jenks are strange, original, terrifying. A stuttered apocalypse, they affirm our fellowship with all matter while suffering divinity’s perpetual departure from our midst.” Jenks grew up in Morgantown, West Virginia and currently teaches at Portland State University in Oregon. Poet and translator Jennifer Moxley joins us from Maine in celebration of her 2005 book, Often Capital (Flood Editions). Poet Dale Smith writes of Moxley: “ She recharges old forms by dismantling the archaisms and replacing them with her own uses of language. It’s lyric synthesis through a kind of dream narrative, only that dream world brings with it real questions of how to live here and now.” Moxley’s last book, The Sense Record (Edge Books, 2002), received a Book of the Year Award from Small Press Traffic. Her other works include Imagination Verses and Enlightenment Evidence. Note: Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to SPT members, and CCA faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) directions and map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/fac_dir.html Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:33:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: buk & collins etc In-Reply-To: <453EC109C67B7A4A8A4F65AC280BE418C1174F@mail.mcbs.edu.om> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Anyone who has seen old Buk on video knows that he drank heavily for much o= f his life. You can see it in his eyes, in the way he moves. He got lucky in that he was a pretty functional drunk. pr primeau ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:38:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Bukowski and gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit CA, I myself am finding this discussion quite useful. Actually, I have not said that Bukowsksi was a misogynist; I said that the representations of gender in his books are a problem. I can so easily imagine someone else calling him a misogynist that it doesn't quite seem necessary for me to do that. There's a difference between being interested in sex and describing the women with whom you are involved primarily or solely in terms of their sexual attributes. His women characters on the whole are not particularly interesting or memorable; they tend to be shrill annoyances who appear and disappear along the road of his narrators' self-journey to a kind of romanticized down-and-outnesss that is as much hippie fantasy as it is revealing discussion of the lives of the poor and downtrodden. The female characters often have nice asses and loud mouths and not much else. Bukowski's descriptions of women strike me as closest to the work of another poet and fiction writer, Jim Harrison. Both of them share an obsession with a certain highly male version of freedom; the ability to come and go as they please without social constraints. These constraints tend mainly to take two forms: the wimpiness of male middle-class bureaucracies, and the social demands of respectability and responsibility placed upon them by women. Their most positive female characters are the ones who are most like the male main characters in seeing all sexual relationships as being about temporary pleasure and the right to move on when you're done with it; the most negative ones are the ones who insist that the men stay put. Interestingly, both Bukowski and Harrison finally rely on metaphors of wilderness; Harrison's wilderness is more literal (the woods of northern Michigan) while Bukowski's wilderness is more that of the neon jungle. Life is a wilderness full of dangers in which the male character is constantly risking his soul but manages to maintain it by not giving in to the artificiality and heartbreak of human ties. The idea of freedom in the wilderness has a long and complicated history in American literature; Thoreau, Hucklebery Finn, Hemingway, many others. I find it all interesting, but I think it's also fair to say that the terms it uses can be questioned. That's what I'm trying to do: I'm NOT trying to call anybody names. As to the question of his loving women, well, who knows. It's not the fact OF loving them that counts, I would say, but HOW one goes about it that's at stake. I'm not talking about what he did or didn't do in his personal life (are you in possession of that information?), I'm talking about the issue as it appears in his books. About the women who have responded saying that they liked Bukowski: of course women can like Bukowski's work, especially (as some of them suggested) if exposed to it at a time in their lives when Bukowski's romanticism seems most appealing. But I didn't see that any of the women who wrote in saying they liked Bukowski denied that gender was a problem in his work, because obviously it's a problem. One might like his work anyway. I do think it's kind of you to point out that loud, large, white heterosexual males can also be stereotyped unfairly. Speaking as a large heterosexual male myself, one who grew up good at playing sports and who spent a lot of time camping in the wilderness, and who likes beer and bars quite a bit, I appreciate the gesture. But you don't do us any favors by saying that because some men like those things, our attitudes towards gender must either be predictable, understandable, or excusable. If you want to give us a break, please assume that even though we might be large and loud and heterosexual, it might also be true that we're capable of understanding (or at least trying to understand) the world we live in. Keep blasting away, my friend. Mark Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:38:28 EDT From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender Mark, what exactly are the problems with Bukowski and gender? He was NOT a misogynist. The word misogynist is a very serious word and not to be taken lightly. HOW was he one? Where do you read this? What? Where? He never EVER beat women, never EVER mistreated women. In fact every woman ever interviewed about him who was either a lover or a friend has had nothing but great things to say! Disagree with you? Yes, I have to. I'm COMPELLED to speak out when I see someone being unfairly judged or mistreated. It comes with the territory of being a queer and constantly judged. I have KNOWN misogynists, and they're scum. And Bukowski was not one of them. Not only did Bukowski NOT beat women he also didn't talk down to them. He Loved them! Why are straight men crucified for liking women I just don't get it!? Can a healthy appetite for sex actually be that bad? And by the way he was also VERY supportive of women poets. He was also published by women editors. The editors of PEARL MAGAZINE loved him, two women. He was a loud guy Mark, and arrogant, but the profile doesn't include these horrible judgments you make. I'm a loud guy, why am I not a misogynist then? Why, well maybe because I'm NOT a misogynist, JUST LOUD! AND BY THE WAY Mark, you say the "men" on this List, as though you haven't noticed some "women" on this List who have some okay things to say about Bukowski. Why are YOU just singling out the "men" on the List? Don't the opinions of women count? And here I thought you were busy defending women. Why am I always the queer defending straight guys? It's so fucking weird I can't even believe it! I'm GLAD I'M NOT A STRAIGHT GUY! GEESH! You can be the nicest fucking guy on Earth and get called the WORST POSSIBLE names just for liking sex and being LOUD! OY! And for LIKING beer! Beer's great! I fucking LOVE beer! In my neck of the woods we drink Yuengling, and it's wonderful, especially with a nice rich cigarette! And I live in a city where we can still smoke and drink INSIDE! And they'll have to drag me out the door by my fucking hair if they ever ban either! What a ridiculous country this is sometimes! The government does NOTHING to DuPont for polluting the rivers and soil with chemicals, Exxon has one of the WORST oil spills in history, and NEITHER company pays a dime to clean it up. But in some cities if you light up a cigarette in a bar (NOT a day-care mind you, but a bar!) you get a ticket for 200 dollars, AND thrown out onto the sidewalk without being able to finish your delicious beer! BASTARDS! CAConrad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:00:11 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new(ish) on rob's clever blog Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new(ish) on rob's clever blog -- a whole pile of (finally) new + recent poetry chapbooks from above/ground press -- a brief note on the poetry of Joshua Marie Wilkinson -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- blogs & angela rawlings -- Purdyesque, or dear Al -- Ongoing notes: early May, 2006 (Fanny Howe's Tramp and Eleni Zisimatos Auerbach's Ariana's Threads, Vallum; Charlie Greg Sark's kitpu apteket, Saturday Morning Chapbooks; is William Allegrezza's Ladders in July, BlazeVOX [books]; Sina Queyras' Still & Otherwise, greenboathouse books; Nicholas Lea & Jesse Ferguson) -- lives of the saints -- peanut butter & jellyfish (poem, for diana hartog) -- festival notes, day last (or, so begins the long festival hangover) -- Elizabeth Bachinsky's Home of Sudden Service -- festival notes, day five (or, night of a million billion ninjas) -- hotel thursday (breakdown) (poem) -- festival notes, day three (or, eighty-eight lines on fourty-four authors) -- Descant #132: The World of Barbara Gowdy -- festival notes, day one (or, what happens at festival stays at the festival) -- a. rawlings' Wide Slumber for Lepidopterists -- George Bowering's Baseball Love -- Ongoing notes: early April 2006 (Monty Reid's Sweetheart of Mine, BookThug; Rachel Rose's Notes on Arrival and Departure, McClelland & Stewart; BafterC, BookThug; the ixnay reader, volume two) etc. www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...11th coll'n - name , an errant (Stride, UK) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:31:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mark--- I like that in this last paragraph you start to bring yourself in. Feel free to take this opportunity for further, uh, self-promotion (don't worry, it doesn't have to be SHAMELESS self-promotion!) and maybe include an excerpt of your 'creative' prose in which you address some of this issues/feelings/actions less as a critic of another but as a "large heterosexual male" in your own right... It can be 'self-criticism' if you wish. thanks, Chris I do think it's kind of you to point out that loud, > large, white heterosexual males can also be > stereotyped unfairly. Speaking as a large heterosexual > male myself, one who grew up good at playing sports > and who spent a lot of time camping in the wilderness, > and who likes beer and bars quite a bit, I appreciate > the gesture. But you don't do us any favors by saying > that because some men like those things, our attitudes > towards gender must either be predictable, > understandable, or excusable. If you want to give us a > break, please assume that even though we might be > large and loud and heterosexual, it might also be true > that we're capable of understanding (or at least > trying to understand) the world we live in. > > Keep blasting away, my friend. > > Mark ---------- >From: Mark Wallace >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Bukowski and gender >Date: Mon, May 15, 2006, 9:38 AM > > CA, I myself am finding this discussion quite useful. > > Actually, I have not said that Bukowsksi was a > misogynist; I said that the representations of gender > in his books are a problem. I can so easily imagine > someone else calling him a misogynist that it doesn't > quite seem necessary for me to do that. > > There's a difference between being interested in sex > and describing the women with whom you are involved > primarily or solely in terms of their sexual > attributes. His women characters on the whole are not > particularly interesting or memorable; they tend to be > shrill annoyances who appear and disappear along the > road of his narrators' self-journey to a kind of > romanticized down-and-outnesss that is as much hippie > fantasy as it is revealing discussion of the lives of > the poor and downtrodden. The female characters often > have nice asses and loud mouths and not much else. > Bukowski's descriptions of women strike me as closest > to the work of another poet and fiction writer, Jim > Harrison. Both of them share an obsession with a > certain highly male version of freedom; the ability to > come and go as they please without social constraints. > These constraints tend mainly to take two forms: the > wimpiness of male middle-class bureaucracies, and the > social demands of respectability and responsibility > placed upon them by women. Their most positive female > characters are the ones who are most like the male > main characters in seeing all sexual relationships as > being about temporary pleasure and the right to move > on when you're done with it; the most negative ones > are the ones who insist that the men stay put. > Interestingly, both Bukowski and Harrison finally rely > on metaphors of wilderness; Harrison's wilderness is > more literal (the woods of northern Michigan) while > Bukowski's wilderness is more that of the neon jungle. > Life is a wilderness full of dangers in which the male > character is constantly risking his soul but manages > to maintain it by not giving in to the artificiality > and heartbreak of human ties. > > The idea of freedom in the wilderness has a long and > complicated history in American literature; Thoreau, > Hucklebery Finn, Hemingway, many others. I find it all > interesting, but I think it's also fair to say that > the terms it uses can be questioned. That's what I'm > trying to do: I'm NOT trying to call anybody names. > > As to the question of his loving women, well, who > knows. It's not the fact OF loving them that counts, I > would say, but HOW one goes about it that's at stake. > I'm not talking about what he did or didn't do in his > personal life (are you in possession of that > information?), I'm talking about the issue as it > appears in his books. > > About the women who have responded saying that they > liked Bukowski: of course women can like Bukowski's > work, especially (as some of them suggested) if > exposed to it at a time in their lives when Bukowski's > romanticism seems most appealing. But I didn't see > that any of the women who wrote in saying they liked > Bukowski denied that gender was a problem in his work, > because obviously it's a problem. One might like his > work anyway. > > I do think it's kind of you to point out that loud, > large, white heterosexual males can also be > stereotyped unfairly. Speaking as a large heterosexual > male myself, one who grew up good at playing sports > and who spent a lot of time camping in the wilderness, > and who likes beer and bars quite a bit, I appreciate > the gesture. But you don't do us any favors by saying > that because some men like those things, our attitudes > towards gender must either be predictable, > understandable, or excusable. If you want to give us a > break, please assume that even though we might be > large and loud and heterosexual, it might also be true > that we're capable of understanding (or at least > trying to understand) the world we live in. > > Keep blasting away, my friend. > > Mark > > > > Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 21:38:28 EDT > From: Craig Allen Conrad > Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender > > > Mark, what exactly are the problems with Bukowski and > gender? > > He was NOT a misogynist. The word misogynist is a > very serious > word and not to be taken lightly. > > HOW was he one? Where do you read this? What? > Where? > > He never EVER beat women, never EVER mistreated women. > In fact every woman ever interviewed about him who was > either > a lover or a friend has had nothing but great things > to say! > > Disagree with you? Yes, I have to. I'm COMPELLED to > speak > out when I see someone being unfairly judged or > mistreated. It > comes with the territory of being a queer and > constantly judged. > > I have KNOWN misogynists, and they're scum. > And Bukowski was not one of them. Not only did > Bukowski > NOT beat women he also didn't talk down to them. > > He Loved them! Why are straight men crucified for > liking > women I just don't get it!? Can a healthy appetite > for sex > actually be that bad? > > And by the way he was also VERY supportive of women > poets. > He was also published by women editors. The editors > of PEARL > MAGAZINE loved him, two women. > > He was a loud guy Mark, and arrogant, but the profile > doesn't > include these horrible judgments you make. > > I'm a loud guy, why am I not a misogynist then? Why, > well maybe > because I'm NOT a misogynist, JUST LOUD! > > AND BY THE WAY Mark, you say the "men" on this List, > as though > you haven't noticed some "women" on this List who have > some okay > things to say about Bukowski. Why are YOU just > singling out the > "men" on the List? > > Don't the opinions of women count? And here I thought > you were > busy defending women. > > Why am I always the queer defending straight guys? > It's so fucking > weird I can't even believe it! > > I'm GLAD I'M NOT A STRAIGHT GUY! GEESH! You can > be the nicest fucking guy on Earth and get called the > WORST > POSSIBLE names just for liking sex and being LOUD! > OY! > And for LIKING beer! Beer's great! I fucking LOVE > beer! In my > neck of the woods we drink Yuengling, and it's > wonderful, especially > with a nice rich cigarette! And I live in a city > where we can still > smoke and drink INSIDE! And they'll have to drag me > out the door > by my fucking hair if they ever ban either! > > What a ridiculous country this is sometimes! The > government does > NOTHING to DuPont for polluting the rivers and soil > with chemicals, > Exxon has one of the WORST oil spills in history, and > NEITHER > company pays a dime to clean it up. But in some > cities if you light > up a cigarette in a bar (NOT a day-care mind you, but > a bar!) you get > a ticket for 200 dollars, AND thrown out onto the > sidewalk without > being able to finish your delicious beer! BASTARDS! > > CAConrad > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) Teacher apologizes for murder essay request http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write fiction. "I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of judgment." "He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the principal said. St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious enough to cost Maxwell his job. About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the class, Albright said. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:51:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender In-Reply-To: <200605151703.k4FH3jvN105548@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Stroffolino wrote: >Mark--- > >I like that in this last paragraph you start to bring yourself in. >Feel free to take this opportunity for further, uh, self-promotion >(don't worry, it doesn't have to be SHAMELESS self-promotion!) >and maybe include an excerpt of your 'creative' prose in which >you address some of this issues/feelings/actions less as a critic of another >but as a "large heterosexual male" in your own right... >It can be 'self-criticism' if you wish. thanks, Chris > >I do think it's kind of you to point out that loud, > > >>large, white heterosexual males can also be >>stereotyped unfairly. >> Dear Chris, It is with extreme reluctance that I take up cudgels on Mark Wallace's behalf, lest I be seen as biased on these key issues, but I must in the end testify on behalf of my former colleague and brother poet. I couldn't help but notice that you've put scare quotes around his self-descriptors. During my teaching stint at GW -- I now teach in far more working-class environs, which frankly isn't all that difficult -- I shared an office with Mr. Wallace. I can assure you that he is indeed: 1. Male. If he is a FtM and thus genetically female, allow me to assure you that he's passing very, very successfully, because he really is: 2. Large. Again, it doesn't take much to outdo me in the height department, but Mark must be a good foot taller than I am. The normally-sized chairs in the office didn't seem to fit him that well. 3. Then there's the issue of his heterosexuality. He didn't hit on me, but boy, was my mystical, magical straight-dar going off. And loud? Oy veh is mir, was this guy loud. He was constantly galumphing up and down the corridors screaming, I mean SCREAMING, poetry at the top of his lungs. He would slam open the door of the office, drop about 50 books on the floor, and bellow, "I HAVE SEEN THE BEST MINDS OF MY GENERATION!" "Mark," I would point out. "You share an office with one of the best minds of your generation. I'm just not hysterical or naked. Big deal." "I AM MAXIMUS OF GLOUCESTER!" he roared back. And on and on. It got really embarrassing when I tried to have students in for conferences. I tell ya. With utmost sincerity, Gwyn "You wouldn't believe what their student store charges for earplugs" McVay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:54:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Tully and Orwell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I hope you do track down Tully's book, Alison. It really is worth it. I'm not an expert on Orwell; is it absolutely clear that he made a purposeful decision to live in the kind of poverty he describes in Down And Out? To some extent, the book itself suggests otherwise, but I've always wondered. Mark Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 09:40:53 +1000 From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender On 15/5/06 9:29 AM, "Mark Wallace" wrote: > Beggars of Life, to my mind, is a better > book even than Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and > London. That's some recommendation - although of course Orwell was slumming it...I'll try to track it down. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:45:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Daniel f. Bradley" Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK In-Reply-To: <1A877A16-062A-4D7D-B55B-2248B9503695@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit who would Buk choose? who would Spicer choose? who would Pound choose? who would i choose? dfb mIEKAL aND wrote: (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) Teacher apologizes for murder essay request http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write fiction. "I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of judgment." "He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the principal said. St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious enough to cost Maxwell his job. About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the class, Albright said. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:06:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK In-Reply-To: <20060515174515.30654.qmail@web88112.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The only problem I can see with the assignment is that since it's for a drafting class, why isn' the teacher asking that the essay be accompanied by some lay out work showing the sites and their dimensions and how they will be used for the murders. >From: "Daniel f. Bradley" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:45:15 -0400 > >who would Buk choose? > who would Spicer choose? > who would Pound choose? > who would i choose? > > dfb > >mIEKAL aND wrote: > (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) > >Teacher apologizes for murder essay request > >http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html > > >Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) > >ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for >asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would >do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. > >Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High >School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting >class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing >prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write >fiction. > >"I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to >apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." > >The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal >assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of >one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. > >Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of >judgment." > >"He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the >principal said. > >St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss >possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a >personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious >enough to cost Maxwell his job. > >About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the >class, Albright said. _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request In-Reply-To: <1A877A16-062A-4D7D-B55B-2248B9503695@mwt.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ironically, Rumsfeld and the Pentagon tell us with great frequency how, without apologym they routinely prepare contingency plans - creative writing exercises, as they must be - for either the invasion and/or bombing of x,y and z countries, plans which inevitably include kill (murder) ratios. Military planners obviously get training in how to produce these operational plans - fictitious or not. I don't think it should surprise us - embarrassing as it might sound - that such planning might come up in the context of a classroom or, possibly, eventually become an acceptable part of the curriculum. It's been a very active part of this regime's culture for the last six years. Over the weekend I - and fellow members in a classic's group - read Euripides' The Trojan Woman. A play, I think, highly applicable to the implosion of values taking place in this country the pre-emptive invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan - including the demolition of other cultures, the institution of torture as practice, universal domestic surveillance, etc., etc. Obviously it's getting time to Nuke Iran! But wow, what a powerful play - which I think last saw a big New York run during the early seventies and the war on Viet Nam. With these great and optimistic notes, Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. > (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) > > Teacher apologizes for murder essay request > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html > > > Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) > > ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for > asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would > do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. > > Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High > School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting > class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing > prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write > fiction. > > "I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to > apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." > > The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal > assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of > one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. > > Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of > judgment." > > "He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the > principal said. > > St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss > possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a > personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious > enough to cost Maxwell his job. > > About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the > class, Albright said. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:19:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T3IgbWF5YmUgdG8gY2hhbGsgYXJvdW5kIHRoZSBib2R5IGFmdGVyd2FyZHMuIAoKV2hlcmUg aXMgdGhpcyBzY2hvb2wgYW55d2F5PwoKTXVyYXQKCgpJbiBhIG1lc3NhZ2UgZGF0ZWQgMDUv MTUvMDYgMjoxMzo0OSBQTSwgZGF2aWRiY2hpcm90QEhPVE1BSUwuQ09NIHdyaXRlczoKCgo+ IMKgIMKgwqAgVGhlIG9ubHkgcHJvYmxlbSBJIGNhbiBzZWUgd2l0aCB0aGUgYXNzaWdubWVu dCBpcyB0aGF0IHNpbmNlIGl0J3MgZm9yIAo+IGEKPiBkcmFmdGluZyBjbGFzcywgd2h5IGlz bicgdGhlIHRlYWNoZXIgYXNraW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIGVzc2F5IGJlIGFjY29tcGFuaWVkIGJ5 Cj4gc29tZSBsYXkgb3V0IHdvcmsgc2hvd2luZyB0aGUgc2l0ZXMgYW5kIHRoZWlyIGRpbWVu c2lvbnMgYW5kIGhvdyB0aGV5IHdpbGwKPiBiZSB1c2VkIGZvciB0aGUgbXVyZGVycy4KPiAK PiA+RnJvbTogIkRhbmllbCBmLiBCcmFkbGV5IiA8ZGZicmFkbGV5QFJPR0VSUy5DT00+Cj4g PlJlcGx5LVRvOiBVQiBQb2V0aWNzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZ3JvdXAgPFBPRVRJQ1NATElTVFNF UlYuQlVGRkFMTy5FRFU+Cj4gPlRvOiBQT0VUSUNTQExJU1RTRVJWLkJVRkZBTE8uRURVCj4g PlN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBUZWFjaGVyIGFwb2xvZ2l6ZXMgZm9yIG11cmRlciBlc3NheSByZXF1 ZXN0IFZTIEJVSwo+ID5EYXRlOiBNb24sIDE1IE1heSAyMDA2IDEzOjQ1OjE1IC0wNDAwCj4g Pgo+ID53aG8gd291bGQgQnVrIGNob29zZT8KPiA+wqDCoCB3aG8gd291bGQgU3BpY2VyIGNo b29zZT8KPiA+wqDCoCB3aG8gd291bGQgUG91bmQgY2hvb3NlPwo+ID7CoMKgIHdobyB3b3Vs ZCBpIGNob29zZT8KPiA+Cj4gPsKgwqAgZGZiCj4gPgo+ID5tSUVLQUwgYU5EIDxkdHZATVdU Lk5FVD4gd3JvdGU6Cj4gPsKgwqAgKGFkZCB0aGlzIHRvIHRoZSBsaXN0IG9mIGV4cGVyaW1l bnRhbCB3cml0aW5nIHdvcmtzaG9wIGlkZWFzLi4pCj4gPgo+ID5UZWFjaGVyIGFwb2xvZ2l6 ZXMgZm9yIG11cmRlciBlc3NheSByZXF1ZXN0Cj4gPgo+ID5odHRwOi8vd3d3LmNubi5jb20v MjAwNi9VUy8wNS8xNS90ZWFjaGVyLmFwb2xvZ2l6ZXMuYXAvaW5kZXguaHRtbAo+ID4KPiA+ Cj4gPk1vbmRheSwgTWF5IDE1LCAyMDA2OyBQb3N0ZWQ6IDg6MTEgYS5tLiBFRFQgKDEyOjEx IEdNVCkKPiA+Cj4gPlNULiBKT1NFUEgsIE1pc3NvdXJpIChBUCkgLS0gQSBoaWdoIHNjaG9v bCB0ZWFjaGVyIGhhcyBhcG9sb2dpemVkIGZvcgo+ID5hc2tpbmcgc3R1ZGVudHMgdG8gd3Jp dGUgYWJvdXQgd2hvIHRoZXkgd291bGQga2lsbCBhbmQgaG93IHRoZXkgd291bGQKPiA+ZG8g aXQsIGFuZCBvZmZpY2lhbHMgc2FpZCBoZSB3aWxsIGxpa2VseSBrZWVwIGhpcyBqb2IuCj4g Pgo+ID5NaWNoYWVsIE1heHdlbGwsIHdobyB0ZWFjaGVzIGluZHVzdHJpYWwgdGVjaG5vbG9n eSBhdCBDZW50cmFsIEhpZ2gKPiA+U2Nob29sLCBzYWlkIGhpcyByZXF1ZXN0IHRoYXQgc3R1 ZGVudHMgaW4gaGlzIGJlZ2lubmluZyBkcmFmdGluZwo+ID5jbGFzcyBkZXNjcmliZSBob3cg dGhleSB3b3VsZCBjYXJyeSBvdXQgYSBtdXJkZXIgd2FzIG1lcmVseSBhIHdyaXRpbmcKPiA+ cHJvbXB0LiBJdCB3YXMgbm90IGNsZWFyIHdoeSBoZSBhc2tlZCB0aGUgZHJhZnRpbmcgY2xh c3MgdG8gd3JpdGUKPiA+ZmljdGlvbi4KPiA+Cj4gPiJJIG1hZGUgYSBob3JyaWJsZSBtaXN0 YWtlIHRoYXQgSSByZWdyZXQsIiBNYXh3ZWxsIHNhaWQuICJJIHdhbnQgdG8KPiA+YXBvbG9n aXplIHRvIG15IHN0dWRlbnRzLCBteSBjb2xsZWFndWVzIGFuZCB0byB0aGUgY29tbXVuaXR5 LiIKPiA+Cj4gPlRoZSBBcHJpbCAyMSB3cml0aW5nIHJlcXVlc3QsIHdoaWNoIE1heHdlbGwg c2FpZCB3YXMgbm90IGEgZm9ybWFsCj4gPmFzc2lnbm1lbnQsIGNhbWUgdG8gdGhlIGF0dGVu dGlvbiBvZiBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdG9ycyB3aGVuIGEgcGFyZW50IG9mCj4gPm9uZSBvZiB0aGUg c3R1ZGVudHMgZmlsZWQgYSBjb21wbGFpbnQgd2l0aCBQcmluY2lwYWwgQmFydG9uIEFsYnJp Z2h0Lgo+ID4KPiA+QWxicmlnaHQgZXhwcmVzc2VkIHJlZ3JldCBhbmQgYXBvbG9naXplZCBm b3IgTWF4d2VsbCdzICJsYXBzZSBvZgo+ID5qdWRnbWVudC4iCj4gPgo+ID4iSGUncyBhbiBl eGVtcGxhcnkgcGVyc29uIC4uLiB0aGlzIGlzIHZlcnkgb3V0IG9mIGNoYXJhY3RlciwiIHRo ZQo+ID5wcmluY2lwYWwgc2FpZC4KPiA+Cj4gPlN0LiBKb3NlcGggU2Nob29sIERpc3RyaWN0 IHNwb2tlc21hbiBTdGV2ZSBIdWZmIGRlY2xpbmVkIHRvIGRpc2N1c3MKPiA+cG9zc2libGUg ZGlzY2lwbGluYXJ5IG1lYXN1cmVzIGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlIG1hdHRlciBpcyBjb25zaWRlcmVk IGEKPiA+cGVyc29ubmVsIGlzc3VlLiBCdXQgaGUgc2FpZCB0aGUgaW5jaWRlbnQgcHJvYmFi bHkgaXNuJ3Qgc2VyaW91cwo+ID5lbm91Z2ggdG8gY29zdCBNYXh3ZWxsIGhpcyBqb2IuCj4g Pgo+ID5BYm91dCAyNSB0byAzMCBzdHVkZW50cyBmcm9tIG5pbnRoIHRocm91Z2ggMTJ0aCBn cmFkZXMgd2VyZSBpbiB0aGUKPiA+Y2xhc3MsIEFsYnJpZ2h0IHNhaWQuCj4gCj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18KPiBEb27igJl0IGp1c3Qgc2VhcmNoLiBGaW5kLiBDaGVjayBvdXQgdGhlIG5ldyBN U04gU2VhcmNoIQo+IGh0dHA6Ly9zZWFyY2gubXNuLmNsaWNrLXVybC5jb20vZ28vb25tMDAy MDA2MzZhdmUvZGlyZWN0LzAxLwo+IAoK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:53:10 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK In-Reply-To: <429.1149463.319a2e4f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline and some models with bits of string showing the bullet paths. Maybe call it "Design for Murder"... They do things differently in Montana - http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/14581160.htm Maybe he was trying to, uh, brighten an otherwise dull class. Roger On 15/05/06, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Or maybe to chalk around the body afterwards. > > Where is this school anyway? > > Murat > > > In a message dated 05/15/06 2:13:49 PM, davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > The only problem I can see with the assignment is that since it's for > > a > > drafting class, why isn' the teacher asking that the essay be accompani= ed by > > some lay out work showing the sites and their dimensions and how they w= ill > > be used for the murders. > > > > >From: "Daniel f. Bradley" > > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK > > >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:45:15 -0400 > > > > > >who would Buk choose? > > > who would Spicer choose? > > > who would Pound choose? > > > who would i choose? > > > > > > dfb > > > > > >mIEKAL aND wrote: > > > (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) > > > > > >Teacher apologizes for murder essay request > > > > > >http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html > > > > > > > > >Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) > > > > > >ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for > > >asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would > > >do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. > > > > > >Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High > > >School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting > > >class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing > > >prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write > > >fiction. > > > > > >"I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to > > >apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." > > > > > >The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal > > >assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of > > >one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. > > > > > >Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of > > >judgment." > > > > > >"He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the > > >principal said. > > > > > >St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss > > >possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a > > >personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious > > >enough to cost Maxwell his job. > > > > > >About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the > > >class, Albright said. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > --=20 http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ "Lord Snooty and his pals, tapdancing" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request In-Reply-To: <1A877A16-062A-4D7D-B55B-2248B9503695@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I once knew an instructor who gave an assignment to his Freshman Comp class that consisted of writing a letter to his (the instructor's) ex-girlfriend, asking her to go out with them. They were also given her address and told t= o mail the letters. There was a serious grievance put forth by a very angry ex. On 5/15/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) > > Teacher apologizes for murder essay request > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html > > > Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) > > ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for > asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would > do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. > > Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High > School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting > class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing > prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write > fiction. > > "I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to > apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." > > The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal > assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of > one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. > > Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of > judgment." > > "He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the > principal said. > > St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss > possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a > personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious > enough to cost Maxwell his job. > > About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the > class, Albright said. > --=20 http://hyperhypo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request In-Reply-To: <750c78460605151304l6a5393d7w17102808b2473ff0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Coffey wrote: > I once knew an instructor who gave an assignment to his Freshman Comp > class > that consisted of writing a letter to his (the instructor's) > ex-girlfriend, > asking her to go out with them. They were also given her address and > told to > mail the letters. There was a serious grievance put forth by a very angry > ex. When I was in high school back in 1749, an honors English course, the teacher gave us a set of imaginative composition prompts. I chose "How I Murdered the Family." I hadn't done that and it didn't even give me any ideas. It was the lamest paper I ever wrote because it was too much of a stretch...which is precisely what these twitty post-Columbinians cannot comprehend: imagination. Nobody complained, called the newspapers, cops, or Dr. Phil. Nobody got their job waved in their face. Homeland Security didn't come to the school and McCarthy's ghost did not appear on the battlements. Actually this happened in 1959, not 1749 (duh), but it still was a much different time, even in New York City. This was the same era when another English teacher, Jeannette Zansky, tried to define for us the difference between good and great: Hitler and Stalin were not good, but they were great in the sense they towered over their age. Nobody hung her out to dry either. Ken --------------------- Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com I wouldn't want to have lived without having offended someone.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derekrogerson Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: Stanley Kunitz, 1905-2006 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stanley Kunitz passed away over the weekend at his Manhattan home ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:26:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly. Maybe a show and tell. Murat In a message dated 05/15/06 3:53:35 PM, rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM writes: > and some models with bits of string showing the bullet paths. Maybe > call it "Design for Murder"... > > They do things differently in Montana - > http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/14581160.htm > > Maybe he was trying to, uh, brighten an otherwise dull class. > > Roger > > On 15/05/06, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > Or maybe to chalk around the body afterwards. > > > > Where is this school anyway? > > > > Murat > > > > > > In a message dated 05/15/06 2:13:49 PM, davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > > > > > > The only problem I can see with the assignment is that since it's for > > > a > > > drafting class, why isn' the teacher asking that the essay be > accompanied by > > > some lay out work showing the sites and their dimensions and how they > will > > > be used for the murders. > > > > > > >From: "Daniel f. Bradley" > > > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > >Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK > > > >Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:45:15 -0400 > > > > > > > >who would Buk choose? > > > > who would Spicer choose? > > > > who would Pound choose? > > > > who would i choose? > > > > > > > > dfb > > > > > > > >mIEKAL aND wrote: > > > > (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) > > > > > > > >Teacher apologizes for murder essay request > > > > > > > >http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > >Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) > > > > > > > >ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for > > > >asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would > > > >do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. > > > > > > > >Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High > > > >School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting > > > >class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing > > > >prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write > > > >fiction. > > > > > > > >"I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to > > > >apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." > > > > > > > >The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal > > > >assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of > > > >one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. > > > > > > > >Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of > > > >judgment." > > > > > > > >"He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the > > > >principal said. > > > > > > > >St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss > > > >possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a > > > >personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious > > > >enough to cost Maxwell his job. > > > > > > > >About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the > > > >class, Albright said. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.badstep.net/ > http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ > "Lord Snooty and his pals, tapdancing" > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 07:32:39 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Tully and Orwell In-Reply-To: <20060515175434.60385.qmail@web60016.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 16/5/06 3:54 AM, "Mark Wallace" wrote: > I hope you do track down Tully's book, Alison. It > really is worth it. >=20 I see it was re-released in 2003. > I'm not an expert on Orwell; is it absolutely clear > that he made a purposeful decision to live in the kind > of poverty he describes in Down And Out? To some > extent, the book itself suggests otherwise, but I've > always wondered. Yes; Orwell was an English middle class child and went to the requisite public schools, including Eton; Orwell saw them as training camps for the administrators of the British Empire. When he finished school he went to South East Asia and was a police officer in Burma. Sometime after that he decided to be a writer, violently rejecting the career path laid out for him. His living as a tramp, as in The Spike, was really a kind of extended journalism, the idea that he had to live in those conditions in order to understand what they were. I suppose he was probably the first person to do that kind of thing. Aside from the precision of his prose, a large part of the reason I value Orwell (who has also a certain bias about women) is the harsh honesty of hi= s self assessments, which makes him a very illuminating commentator on things like British colonialism or the covert anti-Semitism in Britain. This quote= , from "Shooting an Elephant", about an incident in Burma, is not untypical. ...In the end the sneering yellow faces of young men that met me everywhere= , the insults hooted after me when I was at a safe distance, got badly on my nerves. The young Buddhist priests were the worst of all. There were severa= l thousands of them in the town and none of them seemed to have anything to d= o except stand on street corners and jeer at Europeans. All this was perplexing and upsetting. For at that time I had already made up my mind that imperialism was an evil thing and the sooner I chucked up m= y job and got out of it the better. Theoretically =AD and secretly, of course =AD I was all for the Burmese and all against their oppressors, the British. As for the job I was doing, I hated it more bitterly than I can perhaps make clear. In a job like that you see the dirty work of Empire at close quarters. The wretched prisoners huddling in the stinking cages of the lock-ups, the grey, cowed faces of the long-term convicts, the scarred buttocks of the men who had been Bogged with bamboos =AD all these oppressed me with an intolerable sense of guilt. But I could get nothing into perspective. I was young and ill-educated and I had had to think out my problems in the utter silence that is imposed on every Englishman in the East. I did not even know that the British Empire is dying, still less did = I know that it is a great deal better than the younger empires that are going to supplant it. All I knew was that I was stuck between my hatred of the empire I served and my rage against the evil-spirited little beasts who tried to make my job impossible. With one part of my mind I thought of the British Raj as an unbreakable tyranny, as something clamped down, in saecul= a saeculorum, upon the will of prostrate peoples; with another part I thought that the greatest joy in the world would be to drive a bayonet into a Buddhist priest's guts. Feelings like these are the normal by-products of imperialism; ask any Anglo-Indian official, if you can catch him off duty. Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 17:38:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: book release: Alan Gilbert's Another Future MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ANOTHER FUTURE: POETRY AND ART IN A POSTMODERN TWILIGHT by Alan Gilbert http://www.upne.com/0-8195-6783-3.html At the dawn of the 21st century, artists, poets, and scholars may find themselves scratching their heads and wondering, what is next for contemporary art? How do we think about poetry and visual art in the wake of postmodernism? Alan Gilbert begins to answer these questions in ANOTHER FUTURE: POETRY AND ART IN A POSTMODERN TWILIGHT, which brings together a number of his critical writings. Susan Howe describes the book as "lively and direct" and "impressive in its clarity and focus." She continues: "It represents a new spirit in American artistic theory and practice." Gilbert does indeed take new approaches to critical unity and finds ways to examine a wide array of art and poetry to show how they can be understood as belonging to the same cultural moment. Themes of particular interest to Gilbert include how a number of poets and artists have conveyed a documentary impulse in their work; the hybridity of culture; and the importance of a sense of "place" in works of art. ANOTHER FUTURE should be a valuable asset to students and teachers of art and poetry who are looking to transcend the culture wars. ANOTHER FUTURE looks at a host of authors, artists, and topics, many of which have been overlooked in the past, including the Barbie Liberation Organization, Anne Waldman, David LaChappelle, Mark Nowak, "post-black" art, and many more. Alan Gilbert is an independent scholar and poet who has published extensively in journals and magazines on topics relating to poetry and art. He has taught at the Brecht Forum and the Naropa University Summer Writing Program, and has been a visiting artist/guest lecturer at several universities. PLEASE CONTACT US FOR A REVIEW COPY Contact: Stephanie Elliott Wesleyan University Press 215 Long Lane Middletown, CT 06459 (860) 685-7723 selliott@wesleyan.edu Please visit our new Web site: www.wesleyan.edu/wespress ANOTHER FUTURE: POETRY AND ART IN A POSTMODERN TWILIGHT by Alan Gilbert 272 pp. 38 b/w illustrations 6 x 9" $65.00 unjacketed cloth ISBN 0-8195-6783-3 $24.95 paper ISBN 0-8195-6784-1 Publication Date: March 27, 2006 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This was an 'industrial drafting' class, right. While I am way down chez noir, my associational/spatial senses take a syntactical leap back to Abu Graib. In particular the famous picture of contraption of the box with the hooded prisoner atop, arms outstretched, and the connecting wires, etc. - I am taken with the thought that the American servicemen who devised this contraption - as amateur as it seemed - possibly had a vocational high school introductory class in 'industrial drafting' with possibly challenging, creative exercises, as such. I remembering taking such a clas= s when it was still part of a college prep curriculum in California, particularly if you wanted to go into engineering. "Murder" plots never crossed our T-Squares, but we were definitely OG in terms of today's virtua= l video world inclusive of murders by the click. Tho the Lawrence Rad lab wel= l lit nighttime dome in Berkeley and Manhattan project memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not far away. By the way, if you are in the Bay Area, SFMOMA's major Shomei Tomatsu show (the Japanese photographer who's work explores the tissues of post-Japan wa= r Japan under US Occupation) is unnerving and spectacular - particularly the world of the fifties and sixties. It is also the last week of the surrealist photography show which also is wonderful and a clich=E9 buster if you think it will be predictable stuff. > and some models with bits of string showing the bullet paths. Maybe > call it "Design for Murder"... >=20 > They do things differently in Montana - > http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/state/14581160.htm >=20 > Maybe he was trying to, uh, brighten an otherwise dull class. >=20 > Roger >=20 > On 15/05/06, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: >> Or maybe to chalk around the body afterwards. >>=20 >> Where is this school anyway? >>=20 >> Murat >>=20 >>=20 >> In a message dated 05/15/06 2:13:49 PM, davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >>=20 >>=20 >>> The only problem I can see with the assignment is that since it's for >>> a >>> drafting class, why isn' the teacher asking that the essay be accompani= ed by >>> some lay out work showing the sites and their dimensions and how they w= ill >>> be used for the murders. >>>=20 >>>> From: "Daniel f. Bradley" >>>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: Teacher apologizes for murder essay request VS BUK >>>> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:45:15 -0400 >>>>=20 >>>> who would Buk choose? >>>> who would Spicer choose? >>>> who would Pound choose? >>>> who would i choose? >>>>=20 >>>> dfb >>>>=20 >>>> mIEKAL aND wrote: >>>> (add this to the list of experimental writing workshop ideas..) >>>>=20 >>>> Teacher apologizes for murder essay request >>>>=20 >>>> http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/15/teacher.apologizes.ap/index.html >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Monday, May 15, 2006; Posted: 8:11 a.m. EDT (12:11 GMT) >>>>=20 >>>> ST. JOSEPH, Missouri (AP) -- A high school teacher has apologized for >>>> asking students to write about who they would kill and how they would >>>> do it, and officials said he will likely keep his job. >>>>=20 >>>> Michael Maxwell, who teaches industrial technology at Central High >>>> School, said his request that students in his beginning drafting >>>> class describe how they would carry out a murder was merely a writing >>>> prompt. It was not clear why he asked the drafting class to write >>>> fiction. >>>>=20 >>>> "I made a horrible mistake that I regret," Maxwell said. "I want to >>>> apologize to my students, my colleagues and to the community." >>>>=20 >>>> The April 21 writing request, which Maxwell said was not a formal >>>> assignment, came to the attention of administrators when a parent of >>>> one of the students filed a complaint with Principal Barton Albright. >>>>=20 >>>> Albright expressed regret and apologized for Maxwell's "lapse of >>>> judgment." >>>>=20 >>>> "He's an exemplary person ... this is very out of character," the >>>> principal said. >>>>=20 >>>> St. Joseph School District spokesman Steve Huff declined to discuss >>>> possible disciplinary measures because the matter is considered a >>>> personnel issue. But he said the incident probably isn't serious >>>> enough to cost Maxwell his job. >>>>=20 >>>> About 25 to 30 students from ninth through 12th grades were in the >>>> class, Albright said. >>>=20 >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >>> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:54:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Stanley Kunitz, 1905-2006 Comments: To: derekrogerson@GMAIL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline There's a long piece in the current APR: "A Curious Gladness: A Conversatio= n with Stanley Kunitz and Genine Lentine," almost serendipitously. = Stanley Kunitz was an old man when I was young, and living in Provincetown.= I thought he would be old forever. May he rest in peace, as he lived. Mairead >>> derekrogerson@GMAIL.COM 05/15/06 5:18 PM >>> Stanley Kunitz passed away over the weekend at his Manhattan home =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: LA Times Obit of Stanley Kunitz Comments: To: New Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Los Angeles Times today shows just how well written and thought out an obit might be for a poet: http://tinyurl.com/k2n2n ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:21:50 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Appealing to the United States is not very appealing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://ender.indymedia.org/ http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/50042.php Appealing to the United States is not very appealing http://ender.indymedia.org/ ...The people will scrutinize our presidencies. Did we (manage) to bring peace, security and prosperity for the people or insecurity and unemployment? Did we intend to establish justice or just supported (special) interest groups, and by forcing many people to live in poverty and hardship, made a few people rich and powerful -- thus trading the approval of the people and the almighty with theirs? Did we defend the rights of the underprivileged or ignore them? Did we defend the rights of all people around t he world or imposed wars on them, interfered illegally in their affairs, established hellish prisons and incarcerated some of them? Did we bring the world peace and security or raised the specter of intimidation and threats? " -- Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad Appealing to the United States is not very appealing by William Blum- May 15, 2006 (BBlum6@aol.com ) With his recent letter to President Bush, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has become part of a long tradition of Third-World leaders who, under imminent military or political threat from the United States, communicated with Washington officials in the hope of removing that threat. Let us hope that Ahmadinejad's effort doesn't result in the equally traditional outright US rejection. Under the apparently hopeful belief that it was all a misunderstanding, that the United States was not really intent upon crushing them and their movements for social change, the Guatemalan foreign minister in 1954, President Cheddi Jagan of British Guiana in 1961, and Maurice Bishop, leader of Grenada, in 1983 all made their appeals to be left in peace, Jagan doing so at the White House in a talk with President John F. Kennedy.(1) All were crushed anyhow. In 1961, Che Guevara offered a Kennedy aide several important Cuban concessions if Washington would call off the dogs of war. To no avail.(2) In 2002, before the coup in Venezuela that ousted Hugo Chavez, some of the plotters went to Washington to get a green light from the Bush administration. Chavez learned of this visit and was so distressed by it that he sent officials from his government to plead his own case in Washington. The success of this endeavor can be judged by the fact that the coup took place soon thereafter.(3) Shortly before the US invasion of Iraq in March 2003, Iraqi officials, including the chief of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, informed Washington, through a Lebanese-American businessman, that they wanted the United States to know that Iraq no longer had weapons of mass destruction, and they offered to allow American troops and experts and "2000 FBI agents" to conduct a search. The Iraqis also offered to hand over a man accused of being involved in the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 who was being held in Baghdad. The Iraqis, moreover, pledged to hold UN-supervised free elections; surely free elections is something the United States believes in, the Iraqis reasoned, and will be moved by. They also offered full support for any US plan in the Arab-Israeli peace process. "If this is about oil," said the intelligence official, "we will talk about US oil concessions." These proposals were portrayed by the Iraqi officials as having the approval of President Saddam Hussein.(NYT 11-6-03) The United States completely ignored these overtures. The above incidents reflect Third World leaders apparent belief that the United States was open to negotiation, to discussion, to being reasonable. Undoubtedly, fear and desperation played a major role in producing this mental state, but also perhaps the mystique of America, which has captured the world's heart and imagination for two centuries. In 1945 and 1946, Vietnamese leader Ho Chi Minh wrote at least eight letters to US President Harry Truman and the State Department asking for America's help in winning Vietnamese independence from the French. He wrote that world peace was being endangered by French efforts to reconquer Indochina and he requested that "the four powers" (US, Soviet Union, China, and Great Britain) intervene in order to mediate a fair settlement and bring the Indochinese issue before the United Nations.(4) This was a remarkable repeat of history. In 1919, at the Versailles Peace Conference following the First World War, Ho Chi Minh had appealed to US Secretary of State Robert Lansing (uncle of Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles, whom Lansing appointed to the US delegation) for America's help in achieving basic civil liberties and an improvement in the living conditions for the colonial subjects of French Indochina. His plea was ignored.(5) His pleas following the Second World War were likewise ignored, with consequences for Vietnam, the rest of Indochina, and the United States we all know only too well. Ho Chi Minh's pleas were ignored because he was, after all, some sort of communist; yet he and his Vietminh followers had in fact been long-time admirers of the United States. Ho trusted the United States more than he did the Soviet Union and reportedly had a picture of George Washington and a copy of the American Declaration of Independence on his desk. According to a former American intelligence officer, Ho sought his advice on framing the Vietminh's own declaration of independence. The actual declaration of 1945 begins: "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."(6) Now comes the president of Iran with a lengthy personal letter to President Bush. It has the same purpose as the communications mentioned above: to dissuade the American pit bull from attacking and destroying, from adding to the level of suffering in this sad old world. But if the White House has already decided upon an attack, Ahmadinejad's letter will have no effect. Was there anything Czechoslovakia could have done to prevent a Nazi invasion in 1938? Or Poland in 1939? NOTES (1) Guatemala: Stephen Schlesinger and Stephen Kinzer, "Bitter Fruit: The Untold Story of the American Coup in Guatemala" (1982), p.183; Jagan: Arthur Schlesinger, "A Thousand Days" (1965), pp.774-9; Bishop: Associated Press, May 29, 1983, "Leftist Government Officials Visit United States" (2) Miami Herald, April 29, 1996, p.1 (3) New York Times, April 16, 2002 (4) "The Pentagon Papers" (NY Times edition, Bantam Books, 1971), pp.4, 5, 8, 26. (5) Washington Post, September 14, 1969, p.25 (6) Archimedes L.A. Patti, "Why Vietnam? Prelude to America's Albatross" (1980). Patti is the former intelligence officer (OSS) consulted by Ho; Chester Cooper, "The Lost Crusade: The Full Story of US Involvement in Vietnam from Roosevelt to Nixon" (1971) pp.22, 25-7, 40. William Blum is the author of "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War 2" and "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower". (http://www.killinghope.org) He publishes a free monthly newsletter, Anti-Empire Report, which can be subscribed to by sending an email to (bblum6@aol.com ) see also: "For sometime now I have been thinking, how one can justify the undeniable contradictions that exist in the international arena -- which are being constantly debated, especially in political forums and amongst university students.... Young people, university students, and ordinary people have many questions about the phenomenon of Israel. I am sure you are familiar with some of them.... am sure you know how -- and at what cost -- Israel was established: - Many thousands were killed in the process.- Millions of indigenous people were made refugees....This tragedy is not exclusive to the time of establishment; unfortunately it has been ongoing for sixty years now. A regime has been established which does not show mercy even to kids, destroys houses while the occupants are still in them, announces before hand its list and plans to assassinate Palestinian figures, and keeps thousands of Palestinians in prison. Such a phenomenon is unique -- or at the very least extremely rare -- in recent memory.... The people will scrutinize our presidencies. Did we (manage) to bring peace, security and prosperity for the people or insecurity and unemployment? Did we intend to establish justice or just supported (special) interest groups, and by forcing many people to live in poverty and hardship, made a few people rich and powerful -- thus trading the approval of the people and the almighty with theirs? Did we defend the rights of the underprivileged or ignore them? Did we defend the rights of all people around t he world or imposed wars on them, interfered illegally in their affairs, established hellish prisons and incarcerated some of them? Did we bring the world peace and security or raised the specter of intimidation and threats? " -- Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad http://www.iribnews.ir/Full_en.asp?news_id=212909&n=1 or http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2607.shtml or http://ender.indymedia.org/?q=node/32 ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:44:46 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Hank Shocklee: Louder than a Bomb MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.mp3.com/news/stories/4195.html Hank Shocklee: Louder than a Bomb By Jim Welte, MP3.com April 20, 2006 at 10:51:00 AM | more stories by this author With a book and a sci-fi audio-visual project on the way, the creator of the Public Enemy sound is putting in work. From the moment he sat down with MP3.com for a chat, it was clear that Hank Shocklee was ready to bring the noise. Hank Shocklee at work Hank Shocklee at work As cofounder of Public Enemy and creator of the Bomb Squad beats that propelled dozens of sonic bombs, from "Fight the Power" and "Bring the Noise" to "Welcome to the Terrordome," Shocklee invented the sound that defined an era and served as the backdrop for Spike Lee's seminal Do the Right Thing. Shocklee has been away from the game for a while, having served stints as a soundtrack producer (Juice, He Got Game) and a record exec (Universal). But that doesn't mean the 40-year-old Shocklee has retired from the game. He's just on a different vibe right now. As head of Shocklee Entertainment, he's writing a book on the making of It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, PE's second album that almost started a revolution. He's also working on an audiovisual sci-fi project called Shocktronica, listening to lots of drum and bass and, not surprisingly, eschewing much of today's mainstream hip-hop. He also hasn't yet heard the latest album from Chuck D and company. Here's MP3.com's lengthy interview with Hank Shocklee. MP3.com: So, let's start off with talking about what you're up to these days. It sounds like you have a number of things cooking, one of which is the book about the making of Public Enemy's It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. The album that defined PE's sound. The album that defined PE's sound. Hank Shocklee: Yeah, that's going very well right now. It'll be out next year. I'm approaching the book from a different angle, looking at the whole philosophy and reason for making the band, what everyone's role was and how the whole thing came together. It was different from any musical group on the planet. MP3: How so? HS: With PE, we got together as a DJ group, and when we crossed over into doing records, we adopted a whole new philosophy. I wanted to do a personal experiment to see whether you can create something that inspires, teaches, and connects with people on a multi-dimensional level, not just with sight and sound but with also with also vibrations and feelings and emotions and things of that nature. I think we succeeded, because even 20 years later, people come up to me to tell me that our music changed their lives in a deep way. MP3: That's right, we're almost at the 20th anniversary of It Takes a Nation of Millions. HS: Yeah, isn't that crazy? Time flies, man. And that means that the second generation of hip-hop will be celebrating its 20th soon. I'm not talking about the early years. Those guys were doing something that had never been done before. They were basically like, "We have no clue what the f*** we're doing, but this feels good and we should keep it going." I'm talking about the second generation, like Run DMC, Rakim, Slick Rick, Salt-N-Pepa, Biz Markie, Jazzy Jeff and The Fresh Prince, and PE. That's when hip-hop found its voice and got its personality and started to reach that superstar level. That was like the Marvel Comics of hip-hop, where there were so many characters on the scene. MP3: I'm curious if you think that a record like It Takes a Nation of Millions could get made today. From a sampling standpoint, a record like that with so many samples in it would cost a fortune today in licensing fees, and politically, major label artists these days seem less willing to take chances. Bringin' the noise. Bringin' the noise. HS: Yeah, that second generation of hip-hop came before the sampling crackdown. The laws of sampling need to be brought in check and standardized, because it stems from a lack of understanding and it's leading to greed. Sampling was so different back then. The sound of that time was a direct reflection of where you took your samples from. Marley Marl gets the almighty respect because he changed the game prior to that by sampling the kick and the snare [drum] from a record. That gave his sound a whole unique tone, because before then, everybody had pretty much the same sound. So then it was like, well if he took the kick and the snare, why can't I take the guitar riffs too? At that point, I looked at the landscape and said, "Oh, I see where this is going. I have a s*** load of records." From then, I just wanted to take the sampling and OD [overdose] on it. You know, I wanted to use it so much that you didn't know what anything was and where things was coming from. And there was this sonic resonance that I wanted to hear throughout the record, bringing in noise from everywhere. I felt like I had to make records that superseded everything on the marketplace at that moment. Otherwise nobody was going to even take any kind of notice. MP3: Because you guys didn't already have an established fan base in one of the boroughs, say with KRS in the Bronx or BIG in Brooklyn? HS: Yeah, that was the premise of our existence. We just had to break into the game. MP3: What kind of music are you making these days? We don't see you out there in the mainstream. HS: The thing is, what got me involved in hip-hop was its alternativeness. Hip-hop was the alternative music life back then. But now, hip-hop is the mainstream. So, now, it incorporates all the mainstream elements. It's more homogenous. There are more harmonies. There's singing. To me, there's nothing insightful about making a Christina Aguilera record or a Ja Rule record. MP3: So you've stayed away from mainstream music because of how formulaic it is? HS: Exactly. No matter how you do it, as long as you conform to the melody of the song, it's going to work. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm working on an electronic, sci-fi, audiovisual project right now. MP3: Really? I'd read a quote from you a while back to the effect of, "I don't want to make music that you listen to. I want to make records that move you." Is that what we're talking about here? HS: Yeah, definitely. I'm creating a record that you can watch--a record that you can put on that allows you to take the experience to another level. When you listen to a record, you've got to visualize what's going on. That's cool, you know, but I've always been a visual person. So, musically, I want to be able to show you images that give you that extra excitement. And then there's the music. Since we can now all carry around 8,000 records with us, what's new? What's the next phase? What I'm developing is called Shocktronica. It's designed to make you think. It's designed to make you feel. I'm dealing with frequencies that are rhythmic and will keep you in the groove but will also have the appeal of a soundtrack or a score. I'm doing this thing called subsonic frequencies, which is all about fear, allowing you to feel the emotion that's involved in it. For me, music is moving into another zone, which allows you to participate on a more intellectual and physiological and psychological level. I'm talking about psychedelic, '60s kind of operation but with a 2006-2007 kind of feel to it. It's called Subsonic Frequencies. MP3: It'll be a DVD? HS: Yeah, or an enhanced CD with visuals. And I would definitely want to get it out to the video iPods as well. It'll be out late this year. MP3: You're an iPod guy? HS: I tell you, the iPod has to be one of the most incredible inventions of the last 20 years. People don't even understand how revolutionary it is unless they actually were a DJ and tried to carry 300 records around on their back. We used to have to carry seven, eight crates to every gig. Now you've got situations where you can carry 60-80 [GBs] of music, like 10,000-15,000 records. You could change records up every one minute and you could be doing the gig for 25 hours and never play the same record again twice. It is just so amazing right now. MP3: What are you feeling out there these days? What are you listening to? HS: I've been listening to a lot of drum and bass, even though all these "experts" are saying that drum and bass, jungle, two-step, that that music is over. Music comes in waves. It peeks its head up and then it sees what's happening out here and then it finds out, "OK, the people are not ready for it yet." Then it goes back underground and just starts brewing again. It doesn't disappear. It's going to come back up again. Hell, rap was supposed to have been dead in '87. And I'm also into a lot of eclectic electronic music too. But there's so much music out right now from all over the world, from Brazil and Spain and Cuba, all over the place. I've heard stuff where Nigerian rhythms and juju music are put together with hip-hop. And to me what's even hotter than anything is music with no genre. It's like, "Don't even f***ing tell me what this sh** is. Just let me put it on and let me vibe to it." I think that the day is gone where everybody is on one vibration. I'll even put on some classical shit and be like, "I'm vibing to some Rachmaninoff right now. You know what I'm saying?" We're moving away from the style police where everybody's got to sit there and follow one mode. That's dead. MP3: I'm curious where you think hip-hop will be in 10 to 15 years. Do you think that some of this creative kind of multigenre, you know, stuff that's coming from all over the place will bubble to the surface, or will this formulaic homogenization continue? HS: No, we're heading in the direction of musical freedom, I believe that. Part of the reason is that the hip-hop generation is growing up, and it's feeling a lot of different kinds of music that might not be what's on the radio. Each artist is going to sell a lot less now, so those superstar ranks will diminish. MP3: So that means more music will be popular among a critical mass of consumers? HS: Exactly. There's going to be less for everybody but it's going to be better because now the cream is going to have to rise to the top in order for you to get to that level. And so when you do get to that level it's going to be because you truly earned it. MP3: Before we let you go, what are your thoughts on the new PE record that was written and produced by Paris? HS: You know something, it's funny. I've never even heard it. MP3: Really? HS: It's like everybody's keeping it from me for some reason. Nobody will give it to me. MP3: Interesting. Well, a lot of people are saying that he lit a fire under them a little bit. HS: It doesn't take a genius to do that, to be honest. It's because Chuck finally gave up the reins a bit. That was one of my biggest qualms with that situation. Chuck is a great guy. But from a musical standpoint, he's not like the greatest musical person. But he's been like controlling and doing all the records ever since Apocalypse. And I think ever since then he's been making records that have been substandard. Chuck D and Hank Shocklee Chuck D and Hank Shocklee But the bigger issue is that PE wasn't just a sound, it was also a philosophy and a mission. No disrespect to Paris or anybody who has written or who was on the record. I look out there on the streets, man, and I'm asking, "Is anybody even dealing with these issues?" I think that it's been reduced to the music just being music. MP3: Are you guys still in touch, you and Chuck and Flav? HS: I still see Chuck, and I still speak to Flav when I see him. Everybody's older now. I think that people are more interested right now in maintaining their "existence," as to trying to do something new or to change the climate. What I'm not seeing is anybody taking their power and using it for the betterment of changing the environment. It's like we can all go out here and make millions of dollars but can we do anything of any substance? Can we change anybody's lives? Can we make this world a better place? And I know that sounds idealist, but we don't live in a vacuum. It doesn't matter how much money you've made. MP3: So too many people are just looking to maintain their existence, like with Flav doing the reality show and all that stuff, but no one looking to "Fight the Power," so to speak? Flavor Flav's reality show, Flavor of Love Flavor Flav's reality show, Flavor of Love HS: Yeah, but I'm not saying that you shouldn't [make your money]. But we're lucky enough to be able to make a living doing what we do, and we owe it to try and do something more than that. The voice of hip-hop used to have this tremendous strength of change and consciousness. You know, Kanye is the only one that's saying anything of any relevance, and he speaks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. I'm not downing this kid, all right? He's the one that's got the most amount of balls out of everybody that's out there. So I've got to give him the torch. But who's mentoring him? Some of these cats, they're only commodity is that they're known and famous. That's not a commodity. What do you do? If you're Puffy, what do you do? Don't tell me that you make clothes because you don't make the clothes--you license your name. And he learned that from Russell [Simmons], because that's all Russell's career was, licenses and name. That's why Russell has no real power. Everybody is good in their own right, but it's those special people who can go above and beyond so that when you listen to their creativity, their creativity is backed by their word, which you know that their word means something because you'd know the things that they stand for. I'm looking at this world now, and I'm saying, "OK, guys, you've made it now. How much more do you need to make it?" Look at Mel Gibson. Whether you agree him or whatever, the cat is saying something with his art and his money. MP3: It gets back to the fact that PE really stood for something that made people stop and think. HS: Exactly. That's one of the reasons why I'm doing this book, because it's the philosophy that makes it important, not just the music. We're supposed to be living a righteous life, a positive life, and then all the art is going to amplify that. MP3: Words to live by from Hank Shocklee. Thanks a lot for the time. It's been a pleasure. HS: Thank you very much. ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:07:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Appealing to the United States is not very appealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gov'ts are self-serving, not unlike most (everyone)--dog-eat-dog, as Creeley would have said, and did. And it takes little effort to appreciate the intent of your offering, or the suffering of others (especially if you've traveled as extensively as one might, or worked in refugee camps and seen despair as a kind of meal leading to grave discomfort and disillusionment), and especially if you're of color/minority and acutely know something about disempowerment. One cannot ignore, I would submit, the realities of the Cold War--which to any Pole or Czech was a really bad reality (especially following Hitler and great Europe's capitulation). Nor the game of power and politics, and I'm not justifying anyhow's behavior. It wouldn't be so painful, I think, to those of us who've pondered, if we didn't know so much about the media/television/information age's greatest star. It's easier to chat up, as they say, all those other places, little and big, most people know nada about. One thing I tend not to appreciate about such discussions are the inconsistencies ever apparent in such arguements. The US is many things, which, I think, is most important to remember (like everyone). AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:09:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Bukowski and gender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, want to make clear first I took the liberty of saying "misogyny" due to the references you made in one of your original posts in which you DO conflate violence against women with Bukowski. Even if you believe you didn't mean to. THAT made MY hair stand on end. Hmm, to your last paragraph though, I really did think I was making a point that some of the most sensitive people I've ever met are straight guys. And the LOUD was geared toward Bukowski, in that particular sense. But talking about Bukowski can really get emotional, which always reminds me of the factory worker poet in Pittsburgh getting up to the mic and crying his head out. And he only had one beer. I say this like I know it because I do. A woman who seemed embarrassed for him near me had said, OH he must be drunk! And I said No, No he's NOT, he just got here from work, and he's not even finished his first beer. Makes me want to make postcards that ask, "Do you ever cry when you read Bukowski?" and stick them deep inside all of his books on the bookstore and library shelves, with an e-mail they can write to. Anyway, that's a really great argument you make. I'm not agreeing with all of it, but the argument is fantastic! Especially when you get into the Jim Harrison comparisons. Lately I've only looked at the last poetry. None of that goes on in there. There are thousands of pages before though, of course. His grimace in the mid-work had the quality if I'm remembering, where no one was of much use. His meditation on the constant loss of his working class friends, the meaninglessness of misjudged steps to and fro sex and the bar. It's depressing. It's funny its freedom, possibly. The poems themselves became his myth work. And there's also the tie-breaking fantasy of What is a freedom, What a cage. The depth of his poison at some point, meaning the idea that strength was in staying the course in the worst possible life on earth, gives so many people a sense of pride. I remember hearing that especially from some men I knew in the late 80s. Which to me makes the argument that there's a kind of coping mechanism involved here. Which I don't believe contradicts much of what you say. In fact maybe I'm supporting what you say by saying this. The BEST thing has always been WHERE Bukowski takes the reader in the greater family of poets once the reader is exhausted from being in the cave (not just FROM exhausting, but IS exhausted). And there have been a few people I've met who claim to only like the Beats, but they're rare, I bet. Okay, maybe I need to take a serious look at those mid-life books and see these women. Glad you took the time to tell this. I'm sure that the women aren't any less shrill and forgettable as he paints himself. Thanks Mark, CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 20:20:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Stanley Kunitz 5/14/2006 RIP... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Passing thru few=20 leave fingerprints on the minds of others... Once in a very great while though a writer's friend leaves more than his borrowed dust on the rest of us. =20 Alex=20 Passing Through =20 =20 Nobody in the widow's household ever celebrated anniversaries. In the secrecy of my room I would not admit I cared that my friends were given parties. Before I left town for school my birthday went up in smoke=20 in a fire at City Hall that gutted the Department of Vital Statistics. If it weren't for a census report of a five-year-old White Male sharing my mother's address at the Green Street tenement in Worcester I'd have no documentary proof that I exist. You are the first,=20 my dear, to bully me into these festive occasions. Sometimes, you say, I wear an abstracted look that drives you up the wall, as though it signified distress or disaffection. Don't take it so to heart. Maybe I enjoy not-being as much as being who I am. Maybe it's time for me to practice growing old. The way I look=20 at it, I'm passing through a phase: gradually I'm changing to a word. Whatever you choose to claim of me is always yours: nothing is truly mine except my name. I only borrowed this dust.=20 Stanley Kunitz =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:23:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Appealing to the United States is not very appealing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And so who do we believe in? God? Gov'ts? People? I was with a muslim friend of mine in Xingjiang. He calls himself Buick (after the car). He grew up believing in the best of the US, in a dreamy world that has inspired so many, hence the only truly multicultural society in the world, one could argue, constructed of all those delays to freedom and sacrifice. And the US, as you know, has inspired any number of revolutionary movements (including the French, who would later jail Tom Paine)--although, clearly, for many reasons (both favorable and negative). His country is now part of the "reunified Chinese homeland"--as today it's called in the local museum and press. I don't think he knows, because I have seen no need to make his life more complicated, nor our relationship, because I am his friend, on his side, and he is a proud man, that the US began assisting China in its subjugation, reeducation, absorbtion of Buick's people (which was part of deal struck following 9/11). I wonder when Americans will take a good look around? AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 00:19:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Stanley Kunitz & the new issue of my magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I used to see SK at the supermarket a couple of blocks down Sixth Avenue. = I think I once said, I know who you are and I admire you and if you're lookin= g for a pineapple, this one's going to be sweet. No I didn't but I should have. I know I did say something to him once, maybe about pears, but I don't remember. I was too surprised about being in the same stupid supermarket as he, the esteemed Stanley Kunitz. I used to see him with his wife. I gather she died before he did. I wondered when I saw him and said nothing. I wanted to invite him back to my apartment for a glass of wine bu= t I didn't know his poetry. I only knew he was a poet. I was badly read. N= o time for poetry for years. I was fighting all the time. So I say hello goodbye Stanley. I wish I had made a connection. But then again, maybe I wouldn't have found a connection. That happens sometimes. Sometimes we writers don't make connections with each other. Like other people don't. Nothing surprising about all this. I've spend the last few weeks on my magazine. I think it's wonderful. Raymond Federman is our featured writer. We are all poets, artists, prose writers and "non-fiction" commentators. Of course, there is no such thing as non-fiction. I used to write legal briefs and memoranda. I should know. So anyway, drop by, please: http://www.madhattersreview.com. Pax vobiscum -- to all of you & to Stanley who pushed an enamel wired cart of groceries all by himself. --=20 MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ http://www.webdelsol.com/eSCENE/series20.html http://webdelsol.com/PortalDelSol/pds-interview-mhr.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:45:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristine Leja Subject: 14 Hills: Release Party Vol. 12.2-Wed. May 24 @ 7pm Comments: To: "writers@stmarys-ca.edu" , "smallpress@ccac-art.edu" , "cwriting@sfsu.edu" , "enggrads@mills.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wednesday, May 24, 2006 @ 7pm Release Party / Issue 12.2 Varnish Gallery, www.varnishfineart.com/ 77 Natoma Street between 1st and 2nd St. and Mission and Howard Join us in celebrating the release of our latest issue, No. 12 Vol. 2. Raffle and snacks to follow! Shown art and readings by the following included contributors: Readers: Gania Barlow is a veteran of SFSU’s undergraduate creative writing program, to which she is indebted for introducing her to the short short. She is currently pursuing a masters in literature at Mills College, focusing on pre-18th-century English lit. Her creative work recently appeared in Agni Magazine and was nominated for a Pushcart Prize. Catherine Meng lives and works in Berkeley, CA. Her poems have appeared in Crowd, Combo, Carve, Jubilat, and The Boston Review. Tanesia Hale Jones is a graduate of Loyola University New Orleans and an MFA candidate at San Francisco State University. She is currently writing her thesis on cowboys and cowgirls. She lives and works in Oakland, where she plays trains, bakes carrot cakes, and applies action hero tattoos with her son, Harlow Raeyce. Scott Garson teaches writing at Santa Clara University. Recent stories have appeared or are forthcoming in The New Orleans Review, Puerto del Sol, and Quick Fiction. Julie Doxsee holds an MFA from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and is currently a PhD candidate in the poetry program at the University of Denver. Her work has appeared or is forthcoming in Retort Magazine, Shampoo, Eratio Postmodern Poetry, Word For/Word, can we have our ball back, Elimae, Coconut Poetry, Denver Quarterly, The Colorado Review, Conduit, Typo, Borderlands: Texas Poetry Review, Crudeoils, Double Room, GutCult, Versal, and other journals. She was born in London, Ontario. David Lau lives in Santa Cruz, where he teaches at the University of California Santa Cruz and Cabrillo College. His poems have appeared or are forthcoming in Boston Review, VOLT, Denver Quarterly, Pool, and other magazines. Art: Jenny DuPont is an artist and designer living in San Francisco. Originally from the east coast, Jenny was born and raised on the coast of Maine. She studied at Parsons School of Design in New York and the Rhode Island School of Design. In 2000 she received her BFA in illustration from Parsons. In 2001, after working in advertising for a year, she left New York City for San Francisco, where she is employed as a graphic designer. Jenny is a participant in the San Francisco Open Studios and the City College of San Francisco Holiday Print Sale at Fort Mason. www.jennydupont.com Joshua Hagler has had work selected in American Illustration, was nominated for a San Francisco Emerging Artist of 2005 award, shown work throughout the west coast, including the Museum of Contemporary Art, and has done work on children's books, novel covers, editorial illustration, concept art and storyboards for film, the web, and comic books. If you want to know about upcoming projects, releases, exhibitions, and events, please check out www.joshhagler.com Visit www.14hills.net for further information. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:12:16 +1200 Reply-To: jacob.edmond@otago.ac.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacob Edmond Subject: Deep South MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please see below for the announcement regarding the revival of Deep South, a journal that has in the past been an important voice on the NZ literary scene. Under its new editors, it promises to build on this reputation. The journal welcomes submissions from throughout the world. Jacob Edmond Deep South Deep in the South, something was sleeping. For three long years it slept, while outside its burrow white winds blew and snow drifts piled steadily higher. But then one day (possibly owing to global climate change) the blizzards ceased and the temperature began slowly to rise. Deep South is emerging from hibernation. We are currently inviting submissions of original poetry, short fiction, critical essays, extracts from work in progress, reviews, and work by artists and photographers. Submissions can be made by email to deep.south@stonebow.otago.ac.nz, or by mail to Deep South Department of English University of Otago P.O. Box 56 Dunedin New Zealand The journal can be viewed at http://www.otago.ac.nz/deepsouth/index.html Dr. Jacob Edmond Lecturer in Modern and Contemporary Poetry Department of English University of Otago PO Box 56 Dunedin 9015 New Zealand Phone: +64 3 479 7969 Fax: +64 3 479 8558 jacob.edmond@otago.ac.nz jacob.edmond@gmail.com http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~jacobe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:35:16 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edmund Hardy Subject: Douglas Oliver Blog Symposium In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The proposal: A week-long series of posts on the work of Douglas Oliver by divers contributors. Hopefully: A small online gathering of perspectives and writings. To be hosted at: http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/ The date: Monday 24th July – Sunday 30th July Contact: Edmund Hardy at this email if you're interested in writing a post or want further information. Douglas Oliver Information: John Hall's review of Whisper 'Louise' at Jacket: http://jacketmagazine.com/29/hall-oliver.html Books in print: Whisper 'Louise' (Reality Street) Arrondissements (Salt) A Salvo for Africa (Bloodaxe) Penniless Politics (Bloodaxe) Selected Poems (Talisman House) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:39:57 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Escent Subject: "Announcing Jacket 29, April 2006" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed __________________________________________ Announcing Jacket 29, April 2006: http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Barbara Guest === Douglas Messerli: The Countess of Berkeley: on Barbara Guest Barbara Guest died on February 15, 2006 in Berkeley, California. Her funeral was held in Oakland on February 24. === Charles Bernstein: Composing Herself: Barbara Guest __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Feature: Gilbert Sorrentino, Edited by Ken Bolton === Ken Bolton: Gilbert Sorrentino: an Introduction === John O'Brien: Gilbert Sorrentino: Some Various Looks === Eric Mottram: The Black Polar Night: The Poetry Of Gilbert Sorrentino === Donald Phelps: Extra Space === Gilbert Sorrentino in conversation with Barry Alpert, 1974 === Daniel Green: A Strange Commonplace, by Gilbert Sorrentino __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Interviews === Bill Berkson in Conversation with Robert Glück, August 2005 === Setting the World on Fire: Charles Bernstein in conversation with Leonard Schwartz, 2004 === On the Nature of the Lyric: Tom Clark in conversation with Ryan Newton === My Motto Is: 'Translation Fights Cultural Narcissism' -- Chris Daniels in conversation with Kent Johnson, on Fernando Pessoa, Brazilian Poetry, and the Task of the Translator, 2005 __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Feature: James Schuyler, Edited by Pam Brown === James Schuyler: Letters from Italy, Winter 1954-55, to Frank O'Hara (a selection, ed. William Corbett) === Simply, Freely, Clearly: David Kennedy reviews "Just the Thing: Selected Letters of James Schuyler 1951-1991", edited by William Corbett. 470pp. Turtle Point Press, and "James Schuyler: Selected Art Writings", edited by Simon Pettet. 310pp. Black Sparrow Press. === On editing James Schuyler: Simon Pettet and William Corbett and Nathan Kernan in conversation with Pam Brown __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Mallarmé revisited === Chris Edwards: A Fluke 'A Fluke' is a mistranslation into English of Stéphane Mallarmé's 1897 poem 'Un coup de dés...' with parallel French text. === Rachel Blau DuPlessis: Draft 73: Vertigo a response to Mallarmé's work. === David Brooks: Le Panier Fleuri: The Text and Texture of Les Déliquescences of Adoré Floupette === Christine North: Translations of two poems by Mallarmé: 'Withheld from nude...' and 'When darkness threatened...' === John Tranter: Desmond's Coupé A partly homophonic mistranslation into English of 'Un coup de dés', using a nice, sensible even left margin. === John Tranter: a review of Musicopoematographoscope, by Australian poet Christopher Brennan, a manuscript parody of 'Un coup de dés' written within a few months of Mallarmé's poem being published in the May 1897 issue of the Paris journal Cosmopolis. __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Poland: Poems from Altered State The New Polish Poetry. Edited by >>>>>>>>>>Rod Mengham, Tadeusz Pióro and Piotr Szymor. Todmorden, UK: Arc >>>>>>>>>>Publications, 2003. This selection was chosen by Rod Mengham and >>>>>>>>>>John Tranter. === Marcin Baran: Hot embitterments === Julia Fiedorczuk: November on the Narew === Darek Foks: Farewell, Haiku === Mariusz Grzebalski: Slaughterhouse / Then === Krzysztof Jaworski: I used to be a slender guy === Bartlomiej Majzel: Scrumping === Maciej Melecki: Summer, getting away from yourself === Andrzej Niewiadomski: Retineo === Edward Pasewicz: Bird bones === Tadeusz Pióro: Bug hour === Marta Podgórnik: Final destination === Krzysztof Siwczyk: Metaphors and comparisons === Krzysztof Sliwka: Sestina === Dariusz Sosnicki: Washroom / Leaves / How to walk downstairs === Andrzej Sosnowski: A song for Europe / For children === Marcin Swietlicki: Battlefield / So long ago, so distinctly / McDonald's === Eugeniusz Tkaczyszyn-Dycki: XII Moon rises over the Vistula / Dernier cri / LII ('We drink...') / LXXX Heat / XC ('We'd just wept... ') === Adam Wiedemann: Aesthetics of the word === Grzegorz Wróblewski: Tangerines / Argument from Enghave Station / I put off the knife from my hand till tomorrow >>>>>>>>>>Polish Poetry Supplement, 2006: === Maciej Melecki: Cases and Variants / Three Colours === Tadeusz Pióro: Some Methods of Crowd Control === Andrzej Sosnowski: Closer / On the Hoof / Founding a Colony === Agnieszka Wolny-Hamkalo: Event === Grzegorz Wróblewski: Eight Poems === Adam Zdrodowski: Sestine Mon Amour / Like a Tourist in a Milk Bar / Poem Written During Office Hours / Telling Fortunes __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>On Flarf === Dan Hoy: on Flarf: The Virtual Dependency of the Post-Avant and the Problematics of Flarf: What Happens when Poets Spend Too Much Time [messing] Around on the Internet === The Flarflist Collective: Actual Interview with a Six-Year-Old on the Topic of Flarf __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Margaret Avison === Eight poems: The World Still Needs / End of a Day or I as a Blurry Needy / Christmas Approaches, Highway 401 The Hid, Here / A Small Music on a Spring Morning Cycle of Community / The Fixed in a Flux === Mary di Michele: Stuffing the World in at Your Eyes: Margaret Avison and the Poetics of Seeing and Believing; a review of Always Now, The Collected Poems, Three Volumes, by Margaret Avison __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Articles === David Brooks: "Petit Testament": A Reading [on the Ern Malley hoax] === Stephen Kirbach: Resisting the power museum with and beyond Allen Ginsberg's 'Wichita Vortex Sutra' === Thomas Lisk: William Bronk's Path Among the Forms === Michael Palmer: Ground Work: on Robert Duncan === John Welch: Getting it Printed: London in the 1970s === Barry Wood and Bill Luckin: Catch the Music as it Fades: The Poetry of Jack Beeching __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Comic Strip === John Tranter: Dan Dactyl and the Mad Jungle Doctor: A 95-frame black and white comic strip that traces the adventures of adventurer Dan Dactyl and his pals as they search the South American jungles for the mysterious French poet Doctor Verlaine. __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Reviews === Erik Anderson: Join the Planets, by Reed Bye === Jasper Bernes: The Hounds of No by Lara Glenum and A Defense of Poetry by Gabriel Gudding === Michael Cross: Rumored Place by Rob Halpern === Elaine Equi Light and Shade: New and Selected Poems, by Tom Clark === Luciano Erba: Twelve poems from Remi in barca [Shipping the Oars] translated by Peter Robinson === Michael Farrell reviews "Hyper Taiwan: Art Design Culture", by Kurt Brereton === Thomas Fink: 60 lv bo(e)mbs, by Paolo Javier === John Hall: Whisper 'Louise', A double historical memoir and meditation, by Douglas Oliver === David Koehn reviews: Profane Halo by Gillian Conoley === Michael Leddy: More Winnowed Fragments by Simon Pettet === David McCooey: Compared to What: Selected Poems 1971-2003 and The Ash Range by Laurie Duggan === Jill Magi reviews Fantasies in Permeable Structures by Laura Elrick === Nicole Mauro: The Kindly Ones, by Susan Hampton === Marianne Morris: Embrace, by Andrea Brady === Chris Murray: Small Works by Pam Rehm === John Olson: What He Ought To Know, New and Selected Poems by Edward Foster === Gerald Schwartz: Drunken Sailor by John Montague === Erik Sweet: American Music by Chris Martin === Erik Sweet: Father of Noise by Anthony McCann === Eileen Tabios: The Passion of Phineas Gage & Selected Poems by Jesse Glass === Nathaniel Tarn: Red Sky Café by Geoffrey O'Brien === Ed Taylor: The Beautifully Worthless, by Ali Liebegott __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Poems === Andrés Ajens: Translucinating Forrest Johnson [to American-Spanish] === Dustin Collis: Two poems: Title Poem / Light Plucked === Alfred Corn: Rip at the Half Moon === Wystan Curnow: Three poems from Modern Colours === Denise Duhamel and Stephen Paul Miller: from 'Hurricanes': 2. B-Boy / 4. Desperate Young Americans / 6. If RFK had become President === Jon Fosse: The train in one's heart: English version by May-Brit Akerholt === Bill Freind: Four poems: Serenade for Intercom and Tardy Chorister / Dispensationalist Foxtrot / Deportation Celebrant / Chillun of the Hods === John Hall: An essay on lyric ethics === Anthony Hawley: Six poems: 'Awhile' Field Guide for Voices / Five poems from P(r)etty Sonnets === Brian Henry: Three poems: Poem for the Man / Dead Aesthetic / Jesus/Stick === Kent Johnson: Prosodic Structure (A bit after Barbara Guest) === Kent Johnson: Julian in Nicomedeia after Cavafy === Andrew Johnston: Mauve === Peter Larkin: Urban Woods (Section 1 of Open Woods) === Norman MacAfee: The Coming of Fascism to America === Nicholas Messenger: The Pleasures of Reading === John Muckle: Speed Dating === Philip Nikolayev: Two poems: Three Stars / Litmus Test === Ron Padgett and Yu Jian: Five poems: Shoe Cloud / Poem 8 / Poem 9 / Poem 16 / Poem 11 === Christopher Salerno: Two poems: The Republic, Book X / Not Dying === Ouyang Yu: Nine Poems: Listening to the ex-Chinese-woman-soldier / Listening to the Pakistani Taxi-driver / Listening to the Big Bus Guy in London / Listening to the poet talk about himself / Listening to the Lebanese Taxi-driver / Listening to my woman patient / Listening to the 80 year old telling me a story / Listening to the Bangladeshi taxi-driver / Listening to the Chinese audience === Maged Zaher: my software mission If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, Please just ask. ____________________________________ from John Tranter http://jacketmagazine.com/ http://johntranter.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: DC Report 1: Alice In Wonderland, DC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lewis likes Liddel Girls... Oxford don smitten with 7-year-old girl propels=20 her through an unhinged alternate world. Things=20 spring to life. All creatures and people are mad.=20 Property is stripped; the rules turn indide out.=20 What's left is raw instinct, and love rising up=20 from the wreckage. [Alice In Wonderland, Spooky Action Theatre performing at FLASHPOINT/Mead Theatre Lab/ 916 G Street, NW Washington, D.C. May 11-June 4 adapted by Andre Gregory and THE MANHATTAN=20 PROJECT from Lewis Carroll & directed by=20 Richard Henrich]=20 The play captures everything that explodes through=20 a room of doors and walls: the momentum, wildness,=20 joy, acobatic daring, ensemble verve and edgy emotional=20 volability--the great delinquent lunacy of it all. Lewis=20 Carroll blows Alice up into a baloon. The caterpillar=20 smokes his hookah on the backs of four actors who=20 form the mushroom. Humpty Dumpty, an egg smashed=20 on his face, falls from his lonely wooden tower above. And=20 a crazy-ass tea-party happens over, under and all around=20 a ravaged wooden table.Full of uncanny pertinence for our very moment, the book became a wholly theatrical=20 experience. It was the first of three great events (on May=20 13th) I took in last week. Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Elizabeth Willis | Meteoric Flowers (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline METEORIC FLOWERS by Elizabeth Willis http://www.upne.com/0-8195-6813-9.html With her new book of poetry, celebrated poet Elizabeth Willis achieves a truly contemporary vision. Like her earlier work, these poems explore experience and language in ways that render our definitions fluid, shift our paradigms, and expand the possibilities of thinking and feeling. Wesleyan is proud to present METEORIC FLOWERS, a beautifully crafted intersection between emotion and intelligence, poetry and prose. METEORIC FLOWERS was inspired by the scientific pastorals of Erasmus Darwin, grandfather of Charles Darwin and respected physician, poet, philosopher, botanist, and naturalist. Darwin's unique language, exemplified in Loves of the Plants (1789) and Economy of Vegetations (1791), provided titles for Willis's poems, and the poems themselves evoke the spirit of Darwin's own investigative poetics as they work through the personal and sociopolitical turbulence of twenty-first-century citizenship. Willis arranges her poems as cantos with lyrical interludes, shifting effortlessly between lyric verse and prose. The lyric sections, entitled "Verses Omitted," "Verses Omitted by Mistake," and "Errata," provide an intriguing meditation on the generative quality of error. The lyric poems effectively say what the prose cannot, and the prose what the poems cannot. The language of METEORIC FLOWERS turns corners, builds up unexpected tensions and progressions, and makes startling leaps and cuts throughout the book. Willis's knowledge of the Pre-Raphaelite movement and the writings of Erasmus Darwin is evident, and gives her poetry a unique sense of vision and respect for the past. Elizabeth Willis is an assistant professor of English at Wesleyan University. She is the author of Turneresque (2003), The Human Abstract (1995), and Second Law (1993). Her poems have appeared in numerous publications, including American Poetry Review, Aufgabe, Chicago Review, Conjunctions, The Germ, and How2. SAMPLE POEM: Fluent in applejack, I'm knocked off my horse but gaining on liberty. No one spends all his life tanked, what do I mean "spends"? What do I mean "his"? I'm wiping my face on your sleeve as if I'm looking through my own sun. We live in the flower, so I can't taste anything. It's that hot, Tex, a new kind of glue. O, I think therefore I green the grass I'm pinned on. -"Plundering Honey" PLEASE CONTACT US FOR A REVIEW COPY Contact: Stephanie Elliott Wesleyan University Press 215 Long Lane Middletown, CT 06459 (860) 685-7723 selliott@wesleyan.edu Please visit our new Web site: www.wesleyan.edu/wespress METEORIC FLOWERS by Elizabeth Willis 96 pp. 6 x 8" $22.95 jacketed cloth ISBN 0-8195-6813-9 Publication Date: March 30, 2006 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:15:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: good news - i won a prize! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guys! I just won the last prize that will ever be awarded. They awarded it to me secretly in my hut. It clips onto my thunder belt rather nicely. This makes me the last person to win a prize, but I bet now everyone will want a thunder belt. Ah but prizes, what are they really good for? I'll probably wear this around for a week or two the way Amy wore the crown of monkey bones they gave her last spring during the Ninth Annual Monkey Bones Festival before she got bored of it. http://blog.myspace.com/orthodontist ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:44:19 -0400 Reply-To: stephen@poetshouse.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Motika Organization: Poets House Subject: Tonight: Passwords: Patricia Spears Jones on Lorenzo Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Passwords: Patricia Spears Jones on Lorenzo Thomas=20 Tuesday, May 16, 7pm Poets House, 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, NYC $7, Free to Members Patricia Spears Jones will discuss the life and work of Lorenzo Thomas (1944-2005), a pivotal figure in the Black Arts Movement and author of = such poetry books as Chances are Few and Dancing on Main Street. Patricia Spears Jones is an arts writer, playwright, and author of the poetry collections The Weather That Kills and Femme Du Monde. Info: 212-431-7920 =A0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:24:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: good news - i won a prize! Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Yo, Aaron,=20 I was awarded that belt last night, dude, along with ten other people who "= claimed" they were the only ones who won. It's a frightening gimmic, and th= ey made me pay $10.=20 Fuck that! Christophe Casamassima > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Belz" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: good news - i won a prize! > Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:15:31 -0500 >=20 >=20 > Guys! >=20 > I just won the last prize that will ever be awarded. > They awarded it to me secretly in my hut. > It clips onto my thunder belt rather nicely. > This makes me the last person to win a prize, > but I bet now everyone will want a thunder belt. >=20 > Ah but prizes, what are they really good for? > I'll probably wear this around for a week or two > the way Amy wore the crown of monkey bones > they gave her last spring during the Ninth Annual > Monkey Bones Festival before she got bored of it. >=20 >=20 > http://blog.myspace.com/orthodontist > Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:28:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: good news - i won a prize! In-Reply-To: <20060516162413.C6A8C14884@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, when I won that award a couple years ago it came with a certificate to check my car out, and the nice men at the garage said there was nothing wrong with it, but they changed the air in my tires from winter air to summer air, and only charged me $10 per tire! Marcus On 16 May 2006 at 11:24, furniture_ press wrote: > Yo, Aaron, > > I was awarded that belt last night, dude, along with ten other > people who "claimed" they were the only ones who won. It's a > frightening gimmic, and they made me pay $10. > > Fuck that! > > Christophe Casamassima > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Aaron Belz" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: good news - i won a prize! > > Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:15:31 -0500 > > > > > > Guys! > > > > I just won the last prize that will ever be awarded. > > They awarded it to me secretly in my hut. > > It clips onto my thunder belt rather nicely. > > This makes me the last person to win a prize, > > but I bet now everyone will want a thunder belt. > > > > Ah but prizes, what are they really good for? > > I'll probably wear this around for a week or two > > the way Amy wore the crown of monkey bones > > they gave her last spring during the Ninth Annual > > Monkey Bones Festival before she got bored of it. > > > > > > http://blog.myspace.com/orthodontist > > > > > > > Christophe Casamassima > Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology > University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. > > > -- > ___________________________________________ > Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net > Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ > > > Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: Cain and Robertson at Test, Toronto, May 24 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed 1. Please come to the third installment of the Test Reading Series STEPHEN CAIN and LISA ROBERTSON (bios below) a launch for Lisa Robertson's THE MEN: A LYRIC BOOK (BookThug) 24 May 2006, 6:00 p.m.* Mercer Union, a Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto pwyc ($5 recommended, all of which goes to the readers) * Please note that because of Brian Joseph Davis's CD launch later in=20 the evening, the readings will be from 6:30 to 8:30 p.m., earlier than=20= normal, and will begin promptly at 6:30. Doors will open at 6:00 p.m.=20 You're welcome to relax and have a drink before the readings. Please=20 also note that this time is revised slightly from earlier=20 announcements. If you know someone who is (justifiably) under the=20 impression that the readings begin at 7:00, please forward him or her=20 this message. Many thanks. For more information (including a map), please visit=20 www.testreading.org. 2. You are cordially invited to stay for the launch of April Test=20 reader Brian Joseph Davis's CD Yesterduh, beginning at 8:30. There will=20= be a transition period between the two events during which food will be=20= served. For more information on Yesterduh, please visit=20 http://brianjosephdavis.com/yesterduh.html. 3. Sound files of the April installment, featuring MARGARET CHRISTAKOS=20= and BRIAN JOSEPH DAVIS, are now available at=20 www.testreading.org/recordings.html. 4. Stay tuned for information about a special summertime installment of=20= Test featuring DONATO MANCINI. Hope to see you there, Mark ****************** STEPHEN CAIN is the author of American Standard/Canada Dry, a new=20 collection of poetry from Coach House Books. Previous full-length books=20= include Torontology (ECW, 2001) and dyslexicon (Coach House, 1999).=20 Cain=92s work has been anthologized in The Common Sky: Canadian Writers=20= Against the War, Career Suicide!: Contemporary Literary Humour and=20 side/lines: a new Canadian poetics. His poems have appeared=20 internationally, including in such journals as Rampike, Open Letter,=20 Jacket (Australia), Matrix, filling station, Essex (U.S.), dANDelion,=20 eye weekly and QSQ. Since 1995 he has operated the micropress Kitsch in=20= Ink, and has published numerous chapbooks and broadsides in the small=20 and micro press communities. Cain=92s sound poetry can be heard on the = CD=20 Carnivocal (Red Deer, 1999), and he is also recognized as a significant=20= visual poet. He has been a literary editor at the late lamented=20 literary journal Queen Street Quarterly and is currently a fiction=20 editor at Insomniac Press. LISA ROBERTSON was born in Toronto and for many years lived in=20 Vancouver, where she was a member of the Kootenay School of Writing and=20= Artspeak Gallery. She is the author of The Apothecary (1991), XEclogue=20= (1993), Debbie: An Epic, which was nominated for the Governor General's=20= Award in 1998, The Weather, awarded the ReLit Poetry Prize in 2002,=20 Occasional Work and Seven Walks from the Office for Soft Architecture,=20= a Village Voice top book of 2004, and Rousseau's Boat, which won the=20 2005 bpNichol Chapbook Award. She now lives in France. Roberston is a=20 juror for the 2006 Griffin Poetry Prize. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Daniel f. Bradley" Subject: Re: Cain and Robertson at Test, Toronto, May 24 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark i really don't kow what you mean by this (recognized by who?)- i can only think of 3 Cain visual poems form his last book and there pretty slight just wondering Cain’s sound poetry can be heard on the CD Carnivocal (Red Deer, 1999), and he is also recognized as a significant visual poet. helping to kill your literati star since 2004 http://fhole.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Wanda Phipps and Robert Hershon Reading at Brooklyn College this Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Friday, May 19, 2006 at 1:00pm The Tenth Annual "Day of the Poet" A day-long gathering of 300 high school poets and their teachers from across the borough Presented by The Wolfe Institute of the Humanities At Brooklyn College in the Gold Room of the Brooklyn College Student Center Campus Road and East 27th Street (across the street from the main campus) Including a Poetry Reading Featuring: Wanda Phipps and Robert Hershon Free and open to the public Followed by student open mike Wanda Phipps is a writer living in Brooklyn, NY and the author of Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems (Soft Skull Press), Your Last Illusion or Break Up Sonnets (Situations), Lunch Poems (Boog Literature), the e-chapbook After the Mishap and the CD-Rom Zither Mood (Faux Press). Her poetry has been published over 100 times in various publications and recordings including the anthologies Verses that Hurt: Pleasure and Pain From the Poemfone Poets (St. Martin's Press) and The Boog Reader (Boog Literature). She was a co-recipient of a Meet the Composer/ International Creative Collaborations Program Grant and has received awards from the New York Foundation for the Arts, Agni, the National Theatre Translation Fund and the New York State Council on the Arts. She's also curated several reading and performance series at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church as well as other venues and written about the arts for Time Out New York, Paper Magazine, and About.com. Robert Hershon is the author of twelve collection of poems, the most recent being: Calls from the Outside World. His other titles include: The German Lunatic and Into a Punch Line: Poems 1984-1994. He has been awarded two fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and three from the New York State Council on the Arts. Hershon is executive director of The Print Center, Inc., and co-editor of Hanging Loose Press. He lives in Brooklyn with his wife, Donna Brook. Directions: Take the IRT #2 to Flatbush, the end of the line Or #5 to Nevins or Franklin and transfer there for the #2 Walk to the end of Hillel Place take a right on Campus Road and follow it around the gated campus until you reach The Brooklyn College Student Center (a large red brick building on your right). Tell guard you are there for Th= e Wolfe Institute's "Day of the Poet" Reading and he'll let you in. --=20 Wanda Phipps Check out my website MIND HONEY http://www.mindhoney.com and my latest book of poetry Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=3D1-932360-31-X and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=3Drm_item ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:33:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Penton Subject: It finally occured to me no one was reading these things. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, loyalists and partisans, There's a new multimedia update at www.UnlikelyStories.org, including: Nine Photographs by Joel Van Noord Two Spoken Word & Jazz Tracks by Vernon Frazer and "Free Pass," a short film from the Cerealized series on dating and orange juice UnlikelyStories.org is proud to present it's all-new staff! Well, except for me. Please welcome: K. R. Copeland, joining us as Art Director Kirpal Gordon, joining us as Muisc Director & Staff Reviewer Mary Jo Malo, joining us as Staff Reviewer and Gabriel Ricard, joining us as Staff Interviewer That is all. That is everything I know. -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:32:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: It finally occured to me no one was reading these things. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit congratulations! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Penton" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:33 AM Subject: It finally occured to me no one was reading these things. > Greetings, loyalists and partisans, > > There's a new multimedia update at www.UnlikelyStories.org, including: > > Nine Photographs by Joel Van Noord > Two Spoken Word & Jazz Tracks by Vernon Frazer > and "Free Pass," a short film from the Cerealized series on dating and > orange juice > > UnlikelyStories.org is proud to present it's all-new staff! Well, except > for me. Please welcome: > > K. R. Copeland, joining us as Art Director > Kirpal Gordon, joining us as Muisc Director & Staff Reviewer > Mary Jo Malo, joining us as Staff Reviewer > and Gabriel Ricard, joining us as Staff Interviewer > > That is all. That is everything I know. > > -- > Jonathan Penton > http://www.unlikelystories.org > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: good news - i won a prize! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Marcus and Christophe. I think the last winner was Bringer of Storms. http://www.yankeepotroast.org/archives/2005/06/a_day_on_the_ph_1.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: good news - i won a prize! Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 dAMN! i WAS BANKING ON bRINGER OF dIAPHRAGMS! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Belz" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: good news - i won a prize! > Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:08:57 -0500 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, Marcus and Christophe. I think the last winner was Bringer of > Storms. >=20 >=20 >=20 > http://www.yankeepotroast.org/archives/2005/06/a_day_on_the_ph_1.html >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Jig-Sound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an updated version of Jig-Sound: http://vispo.com/temp/jig This is a little different from the last version in that when you link two sounds via a blue line (thus making them play sequentially), a little blue circle travels along the blue line. I introduced this for three reasons: it's the first step toward giving a sense of the music moving through the jig/construction like data through a network or blood through the body; it will give players a sense of how long a sound plays; and it will give players a visual/kinetic sense of what sounds are going to play next. ja ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 14:33:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Burning Chair ::: Edmund Berrigan & Joshua Marie Wilkinson ::: April 21, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Come and get your heart broken by Edmund Berrigan & Joshua Marie Wilkinson Sunday, May 21st, 4PM The Cloister Café 238 East 9th Street Between 2nd & 3rd Avenues East Village, NYC Edmund Berrigan lives and works in New York City. He is the author of Disarming Matter from Owl Press, as well as several chapbooks including Your Cheatin' Heart from furniture press and In the Dream Hole, a collaborative book with Anselm Berrigan from Man Press. His poems have appeared fairly recently in Drill, Lungfull!, Van Gogh's Ear, and Cannibal. He also performs music under the guise I Feel Tractor, in and around New York City. With Alice Notley and Anslem Berrigan he co-edited The Collected Poems of Ted Berrigan. Joshua Marie Wilkinson's most recent book, Lug Your Careless Body out of the Careful Dusk, is a long poem in conversation with Lucian, Freud, Fassbinder, and Bill Morrison, was the winner of the 2005 Iowa Poetry Prize chosen by Graham Foust. Wilkinson is also the author of the recent illustrated chapbook, A Ghost as King of the Rabbits (New Michigan Press), and the book-length poem Suspension of a Secret in Abandoned Rooms, based on an imagined correspondence between Egon Schiele and Ludwig Wittgenstein, which was released last summer by Pinball Publishing. Born exactly seventeen years after Harold Pinter's The Dwarfs first debuted on the BBC, Wilkinson grew up in North Seattle, and has since lived in Turkey, Slovakia, Tucson, and Dublin, and has earned an MFA in poetry (University of Arizona) and an MA in film studies (University College Dublin). His writing has appeared or is forthcoming in 14 Hills, Meridian, Eye Rhyme, Phoebe, CutBank, Barrow Street, Redactions, Typo, 42 Opus Pontoon, Backwards City Review, Double Room, Tarpaulin Sky, Burnside Review, and elsewhere. His first film, a tour documentary about the band Califone entitled Made a Machine by Describing the Landscape, is due out from Thrill Jockey Records later this year. He makes his home in Denver, Colorado, where he teaches literature and writing, works as an editor for the Denver Quarterly, is finishing an anthology with poet Christina Mengert, and is completing a doctorate in English and creative writing. He publishes under a pseudonym after his late paternal grandmother Marie Wilkinson who was a poet and published her writing in rural Montana in the 1930s. Mr. Wilkinson is presently at work on two new books and embarked on a little reading tour of the south in mid March with Eric Baus and the inimitable Noah Eli Gordon. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Minky Starshine Subject: Re: LA Times Obit of Stanley Kunitz (all is stirring, hope is stirring) In-Reply-To: <20060515230600.75519.qmail@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As it should be when so many poets show how well written and thought out poems might be. That is a beautifully written article. Are you, Buffaloes, under the debris of life digging out your poetry, or engaging in glandular activity? To early studied loves and their loss, Deborah Poe "She is a tree in spring Trembling with the hope of leaves Of which the leaves are tongues" SK -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ron Silliman Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:06 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: LA Times Obit of Stanley Kunitz The Los Angeles Times today shows just how well written and thought out an obit might be for a poet: http://tinyurl.com/k2n2n ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:48:13 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: on working class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have been thinking for a while on this subject and hope it all fits in in some measure to what is being discussed. I find that there is no particular classification for working class writing that fits the large, the many; so I am here rallying in the best way by understanding that the overarching situation for those in general not on this list, can be held by the microcosm, the few, adroit in opinion, for the rest. Part of me wonders if clarifying my background is necessary when writing about this. Should I talk of being homeless; should I talk of only _not_ being working class for only a scant few years; should working with my hands for a full time income be the measure for this category; should I tell you about fixing my plumbing last week to amends for this; should I mention that I earn my living as a freelance educator, performer and editor; should working in this manner not be considered working class; should I eat a peach or a donut? ************************ Here are some generalities that come to mind: Part of working class writing is to be willing "for fucks sake" to say for fucks sake. Use latinate words to make fun of those from upper classes. Mispell words, not for vernacular reasons. This is very effective, one friend of mine won the Yale Younger with this tact. Use no (or questionable) punctuation Also abuse grammar, personally I like a apple. Content and style together entirely determine what is working class literature. Although I have been in many working class anthologies and magazines when I write and have chosen to forgo one of these two items, it no longer is working class. One set of poems I wrote deals with working class themes (trailers, poop, confusing medical terms, john waynes teeth etcetera) but does so using sound as a basis and therefore is not publishable by those vaguely aforementioned places. Nearly always there is a narrator. Make sure you use the appropriate words for the speaker. The cruder the better. Cock is cool, but fuckbat is fantastic! Dillywong is wrong. Often blame dilemas in the poem on the government, your boss, or THE MAN. Watch out for fame, the movie, TV show, or otherwise. Make metaphors, tropes, synedoche, etcetra using working class items and common twists of speech. Threaten the audience every so often. Keeps them on their toes. my ex from "Howdy"- And if you listen any further I'll take a tire iron to your sensitive side. ----------------ok That's all my thots for now. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:46:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Message from Norma Cole Comments: cc: "Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics"@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, UK POETRY In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Excuse cross posting, but this is important! ------ Forwarded Message From: Norma Cole Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 16:13:08 -0700 To: Norma Cole Subject: very important campaign Dear friends who care about our earth. Judge for yourself if you want to take action. In the Valle de San Felix, the purest water in Chile runs from 2 rivers, fed by 2 glaciers. Water is a most precious resource, and wars will be fought for it. Indigenous farmers use the water, there is no unemployment, and they provide the second largest source of income for the area. Under the glaciers has been found a huge deposit of gold, silver and other minerals. To get at these, it would be necessary to break, to destroy the glaciers - something never conceived of in the history of the world - and to make 2 huge holes, each as big as a whole mountain, one for extraction and one for the mine's rubbish tip. The project is called PASCUA LAMA. The company is called Barrick Gold. The operation is planned by a multi-national company, one of whose members is George Bush Senior. The Chilean Government has approved the project to start this year, 2006. The only reason it hasn't started yet is because the farmers have got a temporary stay of execution. If they destroy the glaciers, they will not just destroy the source of specially pure water, but they will permanently contaminate the 2 rivers so they will never again be fit for human or animal consumption because of the use of cyanide and sulphuric acid in the extraction process. Every last gramme of gold will go abroad to the multinational company and not one will be left with the people whose land it is.They will only be left with the poisoned water and the resulting illnesses. The farmers have been fighting a long time for their land, but have been forbidden to make a TV appeal by a ban from the Ministry of the Interior. Their only hope now of putting brakes on this project is to get help from international justice. The world must know what is happening in Chile. The only place to start changing the world is from here. We ask you to circulate this message amongst your friends in the following way. Please copy this text, paste it into a new email adding your signature and send it to everyone in your address book. Please will the 100th person to receive and sign the petition send it to noapascualama@yahoo.ca to be forwarded to the Chilean government. No to Pascua Lama Open-cast mine in the Andean Cordillera on the Chilean-Argentine frontier. We ask the Chilean Government not to authorize the Pascua Lama project to protect the whole of 3 glaciers, the purity of the water of the San Felix Valley and El Transito, the quality of the agricultural land of the region of Atacama, the quality of life of the Diaguita people and of the whole population of the region. Signature, City, Country 1) Katharine Proudfoot, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK 2) Laura Cole, London, UK 3) David Platt, London, UK 4) Diane Platt, Manchester, UK 5) Tanya Corker, Manchester, UK 6) Nicola Hargreaves, UK 7) Nicholas Jones, UK 8)Johann Don-Daniel, Germany 9)Ashley Berger, Germany 10) Sarah Downie, Leeds, UK 11) Paula Delahunty, Bingley, UK 12) John O'Driscoll, Bingley, Uk 13) Jordan-Lee Delahunty, Bingley, UK 14) Claire Mulvey, Bradford, UK 15) Marie Malcolm Bradford, UK 16) Ann Clowes, Halifax UK 17) Jayne McGee, Brighouse UK 18) Jason Barratt Oldham UK 19; Lindsay Torrance, Rochdale UK 20 ) Maggie Ford, Rochdale 21) Barry Cook, Todmorden 22) Shelley BUrgoyne, Todmorden 23) Libby Ray, Shipley, England 24) Anne Meynell, Bradford, England 25) Jim Meynell, Bradford, England 26) Alec Knibbs, Kings Lynn, England 27) Suzanne Bailey, Valencia, Spain 28) Agnieszka Legierska, London, England 29) Rosanna Bennett-Moncrieff, Bristol England 30) Kirsten Bennett-Moncrieff, Bristol, England 31) Stephen Haley, Silsoe, England 32) Rob Smith, Bristol, England 33) Basil Anderson, Bristol, England 34) Jonathan Coles, Bristol England 35) Deborah Weinreb, Bristol England 36) Rachel Pearcey 37) Stephanie Greenwood 38) Caryne Chapman Clark, London England 39) Norma Cole, San Francisco USA ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:32:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: on working class Comments: To: editor@pavementsaw.org In-Reply-To: <20060516224813.42964.qmail@web82205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline sorry, david, but in this example: Make sure you use the appropriate words for the speaker. The cruder the better. Cock is cool, but fuckbat is fantastic! Dillywong is wrong. dillywong is absolutely right. --=20 http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:59:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hot Whiskey Press Subject: About that Hot Whiskey Reading In-Reply-To: <4b2211bd0605162058s29df5158q347182ff3a09a756@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Greetings All, Sabrina Calle will not be reading. Instead, we have the lovely Elizabeth Guthrie. The corrected information follows: Hot Whiskey Presents A Belated Insuring the Wicker Man Reading (in Boulder) Thursday May 18th at Trident Booksellers (in the backyard) with: --Joseph S. Cooper --Jared Hayes --Elizabeth Guthrie --Andrew Peterson This event is FREE! Trident Booksellers 940 Pearl St Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 443-3133 Contact: hotwhiskeypress at gmail.com Hope you can join us for this if you're in the area. This will be the first of a monthly series. Feel free to contact us if you are interested in setting up a reading in Boulder. And please spread the word! -- Hot Whiskey Press www.hotwhiskeyblog.blogspot.com www.hotwhiskeypress.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:29:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: on working class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Working class deconstructionists! Buy an SUV and head for the hills! Stop laughing if you can! "For fuck's sake," David. Mark Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 15:48:13 -0700 From: David Baratier Subject: on working class I have been thinking for a while on this subject and hope it all fits in in some measure to what is being discussed. I find that there is no particular classification for working class writing that fits the large, the many; so I am here rallying in the best way by understanding that the overarching situation for those in general not on this list, can be held by the microcosm, the few, adroit in opinion, for the rest. Part of me wonders if clarifying my background is necessary when writing about this. Should I talk of being homeless; should I talk of only _not_ being working class for only a scant few years; should working with my hands for a full time income be the measure for this category; should I tell you about fixing my plumbing last week to amends for this; should I mention that I earn my living as a freelance educator, performer and editor; should working in this manner not be considered working class; should I eat a peach or a donut? ************************ Here are some generalities that come to mind: Part of working class writing is to be willing "for fucks sake" to say for fucks sake. Use latinate words to make fun of those from upper classes. Mispell words, not for vernacular reasons. This is very effective, one friend of mine won the Yale Younger with this tact. Use no (or questionable) punctuation Also abuse grammar, personally I like a apple. Content and style together entirely determine what is working class literature. Although I have been in many working class anthologies and magazines when I write and have chosen to forgo one of these two items, it no longer is working class. One set of poems I wrote deals with working class themes (trailers, poop, confusing medical terms, john waynes teeth etcetera) but does so using sound as a basis and therefore is not publishable by those vaguely aforementioned places. Nearly always there is a narrator. Make sure you use the appropriate words for the speaker. The cruder the better. Cock is cool, but fuckbat is fantastic! Dillywong is wrong. Often blame dilemas in the poem on the government, your boss, or THE MAN. Watch out for fame, the movie, TV show, or otherwise. Make metaphors, tropes, synedoche, etcetra using working class items and common twists of speech. Threaten the audience every so often. Keeps them on their toes. my ex from "Howdy"- And if you listen any further I'll take a tire iron to your sensitive side. ----------------ok That's all my thots for now. Be well David Baratier, Editor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:11:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: on working class In-Reply-To: <20060517042946.53965.qmail@web60025.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit How about 'smirking cunt'--something tethered while running through alley's of Prague (came byway of Brit). I really wonder, however, if a lot of this is really just pose. I mean, people work, and growing up there were lots of times when, well, was no food, single parent family mom working all the time, so proud that she'd tell me to always decline any invitation for food from friend's home--which meant missing out on vanilla ice cream and bologna sandwhiches with yellow mustard. This notion of working class, one wonders, or rather its definition, seems to be generational, racial, regional, not something outside of particular context. How about the ushering in of an era where there need be no underdogs--only THE MAN to claim label of dipossessed. It's only a little less than a pence, AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 02:41:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: THE HAY(NA)KU ANTHOLOGY, NO. 2 (A SUBMISSIONS CALL) Comments: To: flips@uni.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Please feel free to forward] THE HAY(NA)KU ANTHOLOGY, NO. 2: A SUBMISSIONS CALL=20 Following the enthusiastic response to THE FIRST HAY(NA)KU ANTHOLOGY ( http://www.meritagepress.com/haynaku.htm), copublishers Meritage Press and x= Press(ed)=20 are pleased to announce a Submissions Call for THE HAY(NA)KU ANTHOLOGY, NO.=20= 2 , co-edited by Jean Vengua and Mark Young.=20 Deadline: September 31, 2006. Send submissions (cutnpasted in body of e-mail) to MeritagePress@aol.com . B= e=20 reasonable in the volume of your submissions.=A0 Also, please submit just on= ce=20 (rather than sending staggered submissions).=A0 Note that we are open to vis= ual=20 poetry (vizpo), but apologize that we must limit it to black-and-white=20 reproductions. If you have any commentary about the form itself, please also= feel=20 free to share that as well as we'd like to incorporate other poets' thoughts= =20 about the form within the book.=20 The hay(na)ku is a tercet where the first line consists of one word, the=20 second line of two words, and the third line of three words.=A0 We are also=20 interested in your variations of this form, such as the sequence, black-and-= white=20 vizpo hay(na)ku, the reverse hay(na)ku and any other such variations as the=20= poet=20 may propose. Hay(na)ku in non-English languages are also acceptable, as long= as=20 they are submitted with English translations.=20 For examples of hay(na)ku, please check out (1) the links cited by the=20 Hay(na)ku Blog at http://eileentabios.blogspot.com ; (2) the Hay(na)ku Poeti= c Form=20 page at http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/haynaku.htm ; and (3) THE FIRST= =20 HAY(NA)KU ANTHOLOGY itself (distributed through SPD at spdbooks.org as well=20= as=20 Amazon.com). Submissions can be previously published.=A0 Participants will receive=20 contributors' copies. Expected release date will be in Spring 2007. BIOS OF EDITORS:=20 Jean Vengua is a=A0writer and editor. She lives in Santa Cruz California. He= r=20 poetry has been published in various print and online journals and anthologi= es,=20 including Otoliths, Proliferation, We (print and audio CD), Babaylan,=20 Returning a Borrowed Tongue, Moria, Sidereality, Interlope, X-Stream and Fug= acity. As=20 Jean N. V. Gier, her introduction "Variations on a Circle in Blue," appears=20 in Eileen Tabios's book of short stories, Behind the Blue Canvas; other essa= ys=20 appear in Jouvert ( N.C.S.U.), Critical Mass: A Journal of Asian American=20 Cultural Cultural Criticism (U.C. Berkeley), and Geopolitics of the Visual:=20= Essays=20 on Philippine Film Cultures (University of Ateneo Press). "Flux & Abilidad:=20 Notes on a Filipino American Poetics," is featured in PinoyPoetics, edited b= y=20 Nick Carbo. She maintains the blog "Okir" at http://okir.blogspot.com.=20 Mark Young has been publishing poetry for almost fifty years. His most recen= t=20 books are from Series Magritte (Moria), Betabet (BlazeVOX) & episodes=20 (xPress(ed)). He lives in Australia on the Tropic of Capricorn from where h= e edits=20 the online journal Otoliths & maintains his weblogs, currently gamma ways ( http://mhcyoung.blogspot.com/) & mark young's Series Magritte ( http://seriesmagritte.blogspot.com). He also has an author's page at the New= Zealand electronic=20 poetry centre (http://www.nzepc.auckland.ac.nz/authors/young).=20 FOR MORE INFORMATION: MeritagePress@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:42:54 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Evan Escent Subject: "Announcing Jacket 29, April 2006" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed __________________________________________ Announcing Jacket 29, April 2006: http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Barbara Guest === Douglas Messerli: The Countess of Berkeley: on Barbara Guest Barbara Guest died on February 15, 2006 in Berkeley, California. Her funeral was held in Oakland on February 24. === Charles Bernstein: Composing Herself: Barbara Guest __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Feature: Gilbert Sorrentino, Edited by Ken Bolton === Ken Bolton: Gilbert Sorrentino: an Introduction === John O'Brien: Gilbert Sorrentino: Some Various Looks === Eric Mottram: The Black Polar Night: The Poetry Of Gilbert Sorrentino === Donald Phelps: Extra Space === Gilbert Sorrentino in conversation with Barry Alpert, 1974 === Daniel Green: A Strange Commonplace, by Gilbert Sorrentino __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Interviews === Bill Berkson in Conversation with Robert Glück, August 2005 === Setting the World on Fire: Charles Bernstein in conversation with Leonard Schwartz, 2004 === On the Nature of the Lyric: Tom Clark in conversation with Ryan Newton === My Motto Is: 'Translation Fights Cultural Narcissism' -- Chris Daniels in conversation with Kent Johnson, on Fernando Pessoa, Brazilian Poetry, and the Task of the Translator, 2005 __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Feature: James Schuyler, Edited by Pam Brown === James Schuyler: Letters from Italy, Winter 1954-55, to Frank O'Hara (a selection, ed. William Corbett) === Simply, Freely, Clearly: David Kennedy reviews "Just the Thing: Selected Letters of James Schuyler 1951-1991", edited by William Corbett. 470pp. Turtle Point Press, and "James Schuyler: Selected Art Writings", edited by Simon Pettet. 310pp. Black Sparrow Press. === On editing James Schuyler: Simon Pettet and William Corbett and Nathan Kernan in conversation with Pam Brown __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Mallarmé revisited === Chris Edwards: A Fluke 'A Fluke' is a mistranslation into English of Stéphane Mallarmé's 1897 poem 'Un coup de dés...' with parallel French text. === Rachel Blau DuPlessis: Draft 73: Vertigo a response to Mallarmé's work. === David Brooks: Le Panier Fleuri: The Text and Texture of Les Déliquescences of Adoré Floupette === Christine North: Translations of two poems by Mallarmé: 'Withheld from nude...' and 'When darkness threatened...' === John Tranter: Desmond's Coupé A partly homophonic mistranslation into English of 'Un coup de dés', using a nice, sensible even left margin. === John Tranter: a review of Musicopoematographoscope, by Australian poet Christopher Brennan, a manuscript parody of 'Un coup de dés' written within a few months of Mallarmé's poem being published in the May 1897 issue of the Paris journal Cosmopolis. __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Poland: Poems from Altered State The New Polish Poetry. Edited by >>>>>>>>>>Rod Mengham, Tadeusz Pióro and Piotr Szymor. Todmorden, UK: Arc >>>>>>>>>>Publications, 2003. This selection was chosen by Rod Mengham and >>>>>>>>>>John Tranter. === Marcin Baran: Hot embitterments === Julia Fiedorczuk: November on the Narew === Darek Foks: Farewell, Haiku === Mariusz Grzebalski: Slaughterhouse / Then === Krzysztof Jaworski: I used to be a slender guy === Bartlomiej Majzel: Scrumping === Maciej Melecki: Summer, getting away from yourself === Andrzej Niewiadomski: Retineo === Edward Pasewicz: Bird bones === Tadeusz Pióro: Bug hour === Marta Podgórnik: Final destination === Krzysztof Siwczyk: Metaphors and comparisons === Krzysztof Sliwka: Sestina === Dariusz Sosnicki: Washroom / Leaves / How to walk downstairs === Andrzej Sosnowski: A song for Europe / For children === Marcin Swietlicki: Battlefield / So long ago, so distinctly / McDonald's === Eugeniusz Tkaczyszyn-Dycki: XII Moon rises over the Vistula / Dernier cri / LII ('We drink...') / LXXX Heat / XC ('We'd just wept... ') === Adam Wiedemann: Aesthetics of the word === Grzegorz Wróblewski: Tangerines / Argument from Enghave Station / I put off the knife from my hand till tomorrow >>>>>>>>>>Polish Poetry Supplement, 2006: === Maciej Melecki: Cases and Variants / Three Colours === Tadeusz Pióro: Some Methods of Crowd Control === Andrzej Sosnowski: Closer / On the Hoof / Founding a Colony === Agnieszka Wolny-Hamkalo: Event === Grzegorz Wróblewski: Eight Poems === Adam Zdrodowski: Sestine Mon Amour / Like a Tourist in a Milk Bar / Poem Written During Office Hours / Telling Fortunes __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>On Flarf === Dan Hoy: on Flarf: The Virtual Dependency of the Post-Avant and the Problematics of Flarf: What Happens when Poets Spend Too Much Time [messing] Around on the Internet === The Flarflist Collective: Actual Interview with a Six-Year-Old on the Topic of Flarf __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Margaret Avison === Eight poems: The World Still Needs / End of a Day or I as a Blurry Needy / Christmas Approaches, Highway 401 The Hid, Here / A Small Music on a Spring Morning Cycle of Community / The Fixed in a Flux === Mary di Michele: Stuffing the World in at Your Eyes: Margaret Avison and the Poetics of Seeing and Believing; a review of Always Now, The Collected Poems, Three Volumes, by Margaret Avison __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Articles === David Brooks: "Petit Testament": A Reading [on the Ern Malley hoax] === Stephen Kirbach: Resisting the power museum with and beyond Allen Ginsberg's 'Wichita Vortex Sutra' === Thomas Lisk: William Bronk's Path Among the Forms === Michael Palmer: Ground Work: on Robert Duncan === John Welch: Getting it Printed: London in the 1970s === Barry Wood and Bill Luckin: Catch the Music as it Fades: The Poetry of Jack Beeching __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Comic Strip === John Tranter: Dan Dactyl and the Mad Jungle Doctor: A 95-frame black and white comic strip that traces the adventures of adventurer Dan Dactyl and his pals as they search the South American jungles for the mysterious French poet Doctor Verlaine. __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Reviews === Erik Anderson: Join the Planets, by Reed Bye === Jasper Bernes: The Hounds of No by Lara Glenum and A Defense of Poetry by Gabriel Gudding === Michael Cross: Rumored Place by Rob Halpern === Elaine Equi Light and Shade: New and Selected Poems, by Tom Clark === Luciano Erba: Twelve poems from Remi in barca [Shipping the Oars] translated by Peter Robinson === Michael Farrell reviews "Hyper Taiwan: Art Design Culture", by Kurt Brereton === Thomas Fink: 60 lv bo(e)mbs, by Paolo Javier === John Hall: Whisper 'Louise', A double historical memoir and meditation, by Douglas Oliver === David Koehn reviews: Profane Halo by Gillian Conoley === Michael Leddy: More Winnowed Fragments by Simon Pettet === David McCooey: Compared to What: Selected Poems 1971-2003 and The Ash Range by Laurie Duggan === Jill Magi reviews Fantasies in Permeable Structures by Laura Elrick === Nicole Mauro: The Kindly Ones, by Susan Hampton === Marianne Morris: Embrace, by Andrea Brady === Chris Murray: Small Works by Pam Rehm === John Olson: What He Ought To Know, New and Selected Poems by Edward Foster === Gerald Schwartz: Drunken Sailor by John Montague === Erik Sweet: American Music by Chris Martin === Erik Sweet: Father of Noise by Anthony McCann === Eileen Tabios: The Passion of Phineas Gage & Selected Poems by Jesse Glass === Nathaniel Tarn: Red Sky Café by Geoffrey O'Brien === Ed Taylor: The Beautifully Worthless, by Ali Liebegott __________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>Poems === Andrés Ajens: Translucinating Forrest Johnson [to American-Spanish] === Dustin Collis: Two poems: Title Poem / Light Plucked === Alfred Corn: Rip at the Half Moon === Wystan Curnow: Three poems from Modern Colours === Denise Duhamel and Stephen Paul Miller: from 'Hurricanes': 2. B-Boy / 4. Desperate Young Americans / 6. If RFK had become President === Jon Fosse: The train in one's heart: English version by May-Brit Akerholt === Bill Freind: Four poems: Serenade for Intercom and Tardy Chorister / Dispensationalist Foxtrot / Deportation Celebrant / Chillun of the Hods === John Hall: An essay on lyric ethics === Anthony Hawley: Six poems: 'Awhile' Field Guide for Voices / Five poems from P(r)etty Sonnets === Brian Henry: Three poems: Poem for the Man / Dead Aesthetic / Jesus/Stick === Kent Johnson: Prosodic Structure (A bit after Barbara Guest) === Kent Johnson: Julian in Nicomedeia after Cavafy === Andrew Johnston: Mauve === Peter Larkin: Urban Woods (Section 1 of Open Woods) === Norman MacAfee: The Coming of Fascism to America === Nicholas Messenger: The Pleasures of Reading === John Muckle: Speed Dating === Philip Nikolayev: Two poems: Three Stars / Litmus Test === Ron Padgett and Yu Jian: Five poems: Shoe Cloud / Poem 8 / Poem 9 / Poem 16 / Poem 11 === Christopher Salerno: Two poems: The Republic, Book X / Not Dying === Ouyang Yu: Nine Poems: Listening to the ex-Chinese-woman-soldier / Listening to the Pakistani Taxi-driver / Listening to the Big Bus Guy in London / Listening to the poet talk about himself / Listening to the Lebanese Taxi-driver / Listening to my woman patient / Listening to the 80 year old telling me a story / Listening to the Bangladeshi taxi-driver / Listening to the Chinese audience === Maged Zaher: my software mission If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, Please just ask. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: on working class In-Reply-To: <20060517051112.90481.qmail@web54409.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline but alex, aren't all of these things (racial, regional, generational, and yes class) all context based? "This notion of working class, one wonders, or rather its definition, seems to be generational, racial, regional, not something outside of particular context." On 5/17/06, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > > How about 'smirking cunt'--something tethered while running through > alley's of Prague (came byway of Brit). > > I really wonder, however, if a lot of this is really just pose. I mean, > people work, and growing up there were lots of times when, well, was no > food, single parent family mom working all the time, so proud that she'd > tell me to always decline any invitation for food from friend's home--whi= ch > meant missing out on vanilla ice cream and bologna sandwhiches with yello= w > mustard. This notion of working class, one wonders, or rather its > definition, seems to be generational, racial, regional, not something > outside of particular context. How about the ushering in of an era where > there need be no underdogs--only THE MAN to claim label of dipossessed. > > It's only a little less than a pence, > AJ > > > --- > Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT > be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the ar= t > that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound > > --------------------------------- > New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and sav= e > big. > --=20 http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Halle Subject: Seven Corners: Dialogue with Joanne Chapman Comments: To: "alexmfrankel@earthlink.net" , Anne Waldman , Bhisham Bherwani , Bill Garvey , Bob Archambeau , "Bowen, Kristy" , brandihoman@hotmail.com, Cathy Rodriguez , Chad Carroll , "Chapman, Joanne" , chard deNiord , Cheryl Keeler , Chris Glomski , Chris Goodrich , Christian DuFour , Craig Halle , Daniel Godston , Dan Pedersen , DAVID PAVELICH , Ela Kotkowska , "f.lord@snhu.edu" , Garin Cycholl , grant-jenkins@utulsa.edu, Heather Halle , Jacqueline Gens , James DeFrain , Jay Rubin , jeremy@invisible-city.com, JOHN TIPTON , Jules Gibbs , Julianna McCarthy , "K. R." , kdeger@saintviator.com, Kristin Prevallet , Lauren Kelliher , "Lea C. Deschenes" , "lesliesysko@hotmail.com" , Malia Hwang-Carlos , Margaret Doane , Marie U , Mark Tardi , MartinD , Matt Gruenfeld , Michael OLeary , Michael Waters , "mountaingirl523@hotmail.com" , Nikki Hildreth , Monica Halle , "Odelius, Kristy Lee" , pba1@surewest.net, pen@splab.org, Peter Sommers , Randolph Healy , Ross Gay , Rick Wishcamper , rstonecipher@saintviator.com, Simone Muench , timothy daisy , "william.allegrezza@sbcglobal.net" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline What happens when a philosopher/adventure-based psychotherapist and a poet holler at each other about things poetic? Find out the answer/punchline this week at *Seven Corners* ( www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com). The dialogue *Joanne Chapman* and I carried out is called *"Wanting in So Many Ways*." Please check it out. The= n tell your friends. Best, Steve Halle Editor, *7C* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:21:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: New issue of ecopoetics (04/05) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ANNOUNCING ecopoetics 04/05 248 pp. Jack Collom on the Evolution of Writing Ideas (plus some Paragraphs) Charles Bernstein on Maggie O'Sullivan Lytle Shaw on Mulching Tina Darragh and Marcella Durand on Francis Ponge Meredith Quartermain on Richard Caddel David Berridge on TA Clark Kenneth Goldsmith on The Weather William Sylvester on Juliana Spahr and Stacy Szymaszek Lynn Harrigan on The Book of Music & Nature Jonathan Skinner on Angus Fletcher, David Hinton, Brenda Iijima, Mark Nowak, Lisa Robertson, Gary Snyder, and Zephyrus Image Douglas Manson on Eleni Sikelianos Ecopoetics Roundtable Dossier: brief statements by Ian Davidson, Peter Jaeger, Peter Larkin, Jonathan Skinner, and an opera libretto by Alicia Cohen Poetry by Michael Basinski, Mary Crow, Ian Davidson, Clayton Eshleman, Peter Jaeger, Douglas Manson, Florine Melnyk, Ethan Paquin, Kate Schapira, Jonathan Stalling, Arthur Sze, Mark Weiss, and Lila Zemborain (translated by Rosa Alcala) Jonathan Skinner and Julie Patton's Project for The Swing Field Notes from Roy Arenella, Ken Edwards, and Sara Wintz Trees by Lucas Reiner NOW AVAILABLE! SINGLE ISSUE: $10 ($20 institutions) Postage included; outside US & Canada, add $5 Please make checks payable to Jonathan Skinner. TWO YEAR (TWO ISSUE) SUBSCRIPTION: $18 ($36 institutions) Until June 1, 2006: ECOPOETICS 106 Huntington Ave., Buffalo, NY 14214-1675 After June 1, 2006: ECOPOETICS 111 Bardwell Street, Lewiston, ME 04240 jskinner [at] bates [dot] edu Edited and designed by Jonathan Skinner with editorial assistance from Florine Melnyk. This issue supported in part by the James H. McNulty Chair (Dennis Tedlock), Department of English at SUNY Buffalo. For more information, and free pdfs of back issues: www.ecopoetics.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:50:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Chicagopostmodernpoetry.com May June Issue with poets Bruna Mori and Adam Novy Comments: To: A D Jameson , Adam Clay , "Allegrezza, William" , Anne Holub , Anovy16 , Arielle Greenberg , Bill Marsh , Bob Harrison , C B , Caryl Pagel , Cecilia Pinto , Chris Glomski , Chuck Stebelton , Colesque , Dan Beachy-Quick , Daniel Borzutzky , David Baratier , DAVID PAVELICH , della watson , Ela Kotkowska , Garin Cycholl , Jennifer Karmin , john beer , jscape@uchicago.edu, Kerri Sonnenberg , Kodeli1 , Mario Smith , Mark Tardi , "Matthew J. Zapruder" , Michelle Taransky , Nick Twemlow , Peter O'Leary , Robyn Schiff , Steph & John Tipton , Tony Trigilio , Waltraud Haas Bianchi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The MAY JUNE issue of Chicagopostmodernpoetry.com is up with new calendars including up coming readings as Myopic Bookstore and Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee and Poetic Profiles of poets Bruna Mori and Adam Novy. Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:43:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: some very sad news to share about Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their name I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was never advocating misogyny!" This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that the world gets its true focus on. It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:52:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit haven't you ever been in a relationship? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen Conrad" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: some very sad news to share about Bukowski >A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their name > I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just > told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) > where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! > > And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. > > And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying > that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other > places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had > arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early > 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was > never advocating misogyny!" > > This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my > good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that > the world gets its true focus on. > > It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be > able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. > > Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. > > Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was > as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski > in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, > he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a > Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a > light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. > So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. > > CAConrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:53:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fw: Allan Kaprow :: a memorial celebration Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > > Allan Kaprow > > 1927 - 2006 > > > > a memorial celebration > Saturday, June 3, 2006 > 3:00 - 6:00 p.m. > > > Visual Arts Facility > University of California at San Diego > 9500 Gilman Dr. > La Jollla, CA 92093-0327 > > Directions: http://visarts.ucsd.edu/node/view/495/ > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > ---- > An afternoon of food, play, performance, words and noise > celebrating the > life of Allan Kaprow > > Visual Arts Facility > University of California at San Diego > 9500 Gilman Dr. > La Jollla, CA 92093-0327 > > Directions: http://visarts.ucsd.edu/node/view/495/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:48:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>haven't you ever been in a relationship? Yes, I've had my share of relationships. Lovers, friends, like everyone else. Okay, you're next Michael, not sure where this is going. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:09:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: WOODLAND PATTERN: Juliet Patterson and Angie Vasquez this Friday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >==================================================================== >REDLETTER SERIES: JULIET PATTERSON AND ANGIE VASQUEZ >==================================================================== > >Woodland Pattern Book Center presents: > >Redletter series with Juliet Patterson & Angie Trudell Vasquez > >Friday, May 19th, 2006, 7:00 pm >Woodland Pattern Book Center >720 East Locust Street, Milwaukee > > >Juliet Patterson's poems have appeared or are forthcoming in >American Letters &, Commentary, Bellingham Review, Bloom, Conduit, >New Orleans Review, Washington Square, Verse and other magazines. >Her first book, The Truant Lover, was selected by Jean Valentine as >the 2004 winner of the Nightboat Poetry Prize and was published in >March. She lives near the west bank of the Mississippi in >Minneapolis. > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/poems/juliet_patterson01.shtml > > > >Angie Trudell Vasquez is a third generation Mexican-American from >Iowa. She spent the last eight years in Seattle and now lives in >Milwaukee with her husband. As a member of Los Norteños in the >Pacific Northwest, she produced several literary art shows for Dia >de Los Muertos and Cinco de Mayo. She recently performed in >conjunction with the ACLU of Wisconsin's the Other America Tour. Her >work had appeared on stage and in print in The Raven Chronicles, >Real Change, Stand Alone and Purgatorius.org. The Force Your Face >Carries, a self published chapbook, is available at Woodland Pattern >Book Center, Open Books in Seattle, and online The Elliott Bay Book >Company. > > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/poems/angie_vasquez01.shtml > > > >ADMISSION: >$2 open mic readers >$3 general admission > > >SERIES INFO: >Redletter is a reading series featuring local and regional poets and >writers on the third Friday of each month, and is curated by Chuck >Stebelton. The program begins at 7 p.m. with an open mic, followed >by two featured readers. The cost is $3, or $2 for open mic readers. > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/gallery/redletter.shtml > > >==================================================================== >UPCOMING EVENTS >==================================================================== > > >Friday, 5/26: Film: Eteam's 1.1 Acre Flat Screen; 7:00 > >Sunday, 6/11: Open Letters with Renato Umali; 2:00 > >Friday, 6/16: Redletter: Joshua Beckman & Noelle Kocot; 7:00 > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/ > > >==================================================================== >IN THE GALLERY: BOOK WORKS FROM FLYING FISH PRESS >==================================================================== > >Flying Fish Press was established in 1987 by Julie Chen and is >dedicated to the design and production of books which combine the >quality and craftsmanship of traditional letterpress printing with >the innovation and visual excitement of contemporary non-traditional >book structures and modern typography. There is an emphasis on book >structures which can function both traditionally as books as well as >sculpturally as objects to be displayed. Editions range in size from >10-150 copies. While Julie is currently focusing solely on the >publication of her own artists' books, the press has had a rich >history of producing collaborative projects with other visual >artists such as Nance O’Banion and Lois Morrison. > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/workshops/julie_chen.shtml > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >To receive regular messages notifying you of Woodland Pattern >events, send a message to us at woodlandpattern@sbcglobal.net with >"Join E-List" in the subject line. > >To unsubscribe from these mailings send a reply with "unsubscribe" >in the subject line. > >PLEASE FORWARD! THANKS!!! > >http://www.woodlandpattern.org/ > >Woodland Pattern Book Center >720 E. Locust Street >Milwaukee, WI 53212 >phone 414.263.5001 _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:14:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: GALATEA RESURRECTS, ISSUE 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who wish to submit review copies or reviews for Galatea Resurrects= =20 (A Poetry Engagement), information is here at http://grarchives.blogspot.com And now I'm pleased to announce the release of the second issue here:=20 http://galatearesurrection2.blogspot.com=A0=A0=20 Here are its Contents: EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION From Eileen Tabios NEW REVIEWS Chris Murray reviews DISOBEDIENCE by kari edwards Barry Schwabsky reviews MERCURY by Simon Smith Alan Baker reviews UNDER THE MIRACLE BRIDGE FLOWS THE SAND by John=20 Bloomberg-Rissman Thomas Fink reviews HOME ON THE RANGE (THE NIGHT SKY WITH STARS IN MY MOUTH)= =20 by Tenney Nathanson PR Primeau reviews THE ART OF COUNTRY GRAIN ELEVATORS by Jon Volkmer William Allegrezza reviews THE BEDSIDE GUIDE TO NO TELL MOTEL, Eds. Molly=20 Arden & Reb Livingston Mary Jo Malo reviews "PHENOMENA OF INTERFERENCE" by Steve Dalachinsky &=20 Matthew Shipp Ernesto Priego reviews [WAYS] by Barry Schwabsky & Hong Seung-Lye Thomas Fink reviews CITY ECLOGUE by Ed Roberson William Allegrezza reviews DRIVE: THE FIRST QUARTET by Lorna Dee Cervantes Cati Porter reviews LOCKET by Catherine Daly John Bloomberg-Rissman reviews 2 books by Catherine Daly: LOCKET and DADADA=20 Julie R. Enszer reviews LEARNING THE LANGUAGE by Kate Greenstreet David Harrison Horton presents mini-reviews of four chaps: THE BODY ACHES=20 [POEMS AND HAY(NA)KU] by Ernesto Priego; ON EVERY EMPTY LOT by Edward Stresi= no;=20 LOST AND CERTAIN OF IT by Bryce Milligan; and GAZOOLY by Olivia Cronk Laurel Johnson reviews from SERIES MAGRITTE by Mark Young=20 Richard Lopez reviews TYPICAL GIRL by Donna Kuhn Julie R. Enszer reviews DESIRE PATH by Myrna Goodman, Maxine Silverman,=20 Meredith Silverman & Jennifer Wallace (with a note on the book's publishing=20= format=20 by Sandy McIntosh) Eileen Tabios reviews MORAINE by Joanna Fuhrman Jon Leon reviews WAITING FOR THE RAPTURE by Kirby Olson Barbara Jane Reyes reviews PRECIPITATES by Debra Kang Dean Laurel Johnson reviews OPERA: POEMS 1981-2002 by Barry Schwabsky Laurel Johnson reviews ONE THOUSAND YEARS by Corinne Robins Eileen Tabios reviews RUSTLE OF BAMBOO LEAVES: SELECTED HAIKU AND OTHER POEM= S=20 by Victor P. Gendrano Julie R. Enszer reviews THE UNDERWATER HOSPITAL by Jan Steckel Rochita Loenen-Ruiz reviews PINOY POETICS, Ed. Nick Carbo Tom Beckett reviews THE VICIOUS BUNNY TRANSLATIONS by William Allegrezza Julie R. Enszer reviews POETIC VOICES WITHOUT BORDERS, Ed. Robert L. Giron Barbara Jane Reyes reviews MUSEUM OF ABSENCES by Luis H. Francia Julie R. Enszer reviews WAKE-UP CALLS: 66 MORNING POEMS by Wanda Phipps Yvonne Hortillo reviews OCHRE TONES by Marjorie Evasco William Allegrezza reviews SOMEHOW by Burt Kimmelman Laurel Johnson reviews HEADING HOME by Loreta M. Medina Kyoko Asana reviews SHOT WITH EROS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Glenna Luschei Rochita Loenen-Ruiz reviews POETA EN SAN FRANCISCO by Barbara Jane Reyes Aileen Ibardaloza reviews THE UNABRIDGED JOURNALS OF SYLVIA PLATH=20 (1950-1962), Ed. Karen Kukil FEATURE ARTICLE Sandy's Mom reviews Sandy McIntosh's THE AFTER-DEATH HISTORY OF MY MOTHER FEATURED POETS Guillermo Juan Parra presents Elizabeth Sch=F6n Andrew Joron presents Brian Lucas FROM OFFLINE TO ONLINE: REPRINTED REVIEWS Timothy Yu reviews ASIAN AMERICAN POETRY: THE NEXT GENERATION, Ed. Victoria=20 Chang Juliana Spahr reviews BORN TO SLOW HORSES by Kamau Brathwaite Joshua Corey reviews DOWN SPOOKY by Shanna Compton Anna Eyre reviews PURR by Mary Ann Samyn Barbara Jane Reyes reviews OCTOBER LIGHT by Jeff Tagami Yvonne Hortillo reviews REAL KARAOKE PEOPLE: POEMS AND PROSE by Ed Bok Lee=20 Eileen Tabios reviews FORBIDDEN ENTRIES by John Yau ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:21:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit people get out of hand when drinking in a documentary, it's hard for any human being to be the measure of an ideal, audience or artist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen Conrad" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:48 AM Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski >>>haven't you ever been in a relationship? > > Yes, I've had my share of relationships. Lovers, friends, like everyone > else. > > Okay, you're next Michael, not sure where this is going. > CAConrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:28:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski Comments: To: CAConrad9@AOL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I don't think anyone needs their teeth knocked in. On the other hand, I = like your use of "stoops": bullies always stoop, i.e., they like prey = smaller than they are. Women are good, children are excellent. Anyway, I = am sorry about your disappointment. I know far less about Bukowski than = you do, but would not be amazed to hear that he was abusive to women. Mairead >>> CAConrad9@AOL.COM 05/17/06 11:43 AM >>> A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their name I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! =20 And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. =20 And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was never advocating misogyny!" =20 This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that the world gets its true focus on. =20 It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. =20 Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. =20 Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. =20 CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_=20 (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/)=20 "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be =20 restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_=20 (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/)=20 for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_=20 (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com)=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:53:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Not to be missed: tonight in San Francisco: music video panel Comments: To: ampersand@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >From: Michael Palmieri >Subject: tomorrow nite: VERTIGO >Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:14:00 -0700 >X-ELNK-Info: spv=0; >X-ELNK-AV: 0 >X-ELNK-Info: sbv=0; sbrc=.0; sbf=00; sbw=000; > >just a reminder, > >tomorrow nite at the LAB is the music video panel i'm doing for the >mission creek music festival. it's called >"Vertigo: SF perspectives on the music video" and features five >great artists from the SF offering their unique perspectives on the >music video. we'll be watching and discussing about 12 videos or so, >a really eclectic mix of stuff. so if you can make it, stop on by. >7:30pm at the LAB on 2948 16th st. @ capp. > >the panelists are: > >heklina - a san francisco drag legend, founder and hostess of the tranny shack >kevin killian - poet, author, playwright, and all around kylie minogue fanatic >kota ezawa - the world's finest minimalist video and fine artist. >all the way from dusseldorf! >scott hewicker - prolific painter and multi-faceted musician in the >Alps and Troll >arno salters - animator, filmmaker, and music video director > > >WHAT: Vertigo: SF perspectives on the music video >WHERE: the LAB, 2948 16th st. @ mission/south van ness (exact cross >st. is capp) >WHEN: wednesday, may 17th, at 7:30pm >HOW MUCH: $7-15, sliding scale >MORE INFO: www.mcmf.org > >hope to see you there, >mike palmieri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:02:55 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Reading: E. Tracy Grinnell, Rob Halpern, Jen Scappettone @ BPC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Come celebrate the release of E. Tracy Grinnell’s new book, Some Clear Souvenir This Sunday May 21st 2:00-4:00 pm at The Bowery Poetry Club The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery @ Bleecker, right across from CBGB's F train to Second Ave | 6 train to Bleecker | 212-614-0505 E. Tracy Grinnell is the author of Music or Forgetting (O Books, 2001) and now, Some Clear Souvenir (O Books, 2006). A chapbook written in collaboration with Paul Foster Johnson called Quadriga,is forthcoming from g o n g chapbooks. She is the editor of Aufgabe Magazine and co-editor with Paul Foster Johnson of Litmus Press. Rumored Place (Krupskaya, 2004) is Rob Halpern’s first book of poems. Recent work appears in Biting the Error: Writers Explore Narrative (Coach House Books), as well as Antennae, Chain, and Submodern Fiction. He’s currently translating a suite of essays by Georges Perec, the first of which, “For A Realist Literature,” is forthcoming. Together with Kathleen Fraser, he is editing the poems of the late Frances Jaffer. His new project is called Music for Porn. Jen Scappettone currently lives somewhere between Middletown & Brooklyn, has just completed two manuscripts, From Dame Quickly (poems) and Locomotrix:Selected Poems of Amelia Rosselli (translations from the Italian), and is working on a third, about post-Romantic notions of place, called Venice & the Digressive Invention of the Modern. Before moving back to the East Coast she edited Mon Zen magazine in Japan & co-curated the 21st-Century Poetics Series & the Holloway Poetry Series in Berkeley. New poetry, translations, or prose appears in War & Peace, Volume 2 (O Books,2005) and is forthcoming in Bay Poetics (Faux Press, 2006), Bombay Gin, Chicago Review, The Drunken Boat, and Viz. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:14:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Not to be missed: tonight in San Francisco: music video panel Comments: cc: belladodie@earthlink.net Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey Dodie--- Is that email forwarded from the poet who used to go by the name "Michael Palmer"? If so, is this a new development? Him now going back to his given name? Wow...Or, if it's someone else, sorry for bugging you. Chris ---------- >From: Dodie Bellamy >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Not to be missed: tonight in San Francisco: music video panel >Date: Wed, May 17, 2006, 10:53 AM > >> >>From: Michael Palmieri >>Subject: tomorrow nite: VERTIGO >>Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:14:00 -0700 >>X-ELNK-Info: spv=0; >>X-ELNK-AV: 0 >>X-ELNK-Info: sbv=0; sbrc=.0; sbf=00; sbw=000; >> >>just a reminder, >> >>tomorrow nite at the LAB is the music video panel i'm doing for the >>mission creek music festival. it's called >>"Vertigo: SF perspectives on the music video" and features five >>great artists from the SF offering their unique perspectives on the >>music video. we'll be watching and discussing about 12 videos or so, >>a really eclectic mix of stuff. so if you can make it, stop on by. >>7:30pm at the LAB on 2948 16th st. @ capp. >> >>the panelists are: >> >>heklina - a san francisco drag legend, founder and hostess of the tranny shack >>kevin killian - poet, author, playwright, and all around kylie minogue fanatic >>kota ezawa - the world's finest minimalist video and fine artist. >>all the way from dusseldorf! >>scott hewicker - prolific painter and multi-faceted musician in the >>Alps and Troll >>arno salters - animator, filmmaker, and music video director >> >> >>WHAT: Vertigo: SF perspectives on the music video >>WHERE: the LAB, 2948 16th st. @ mission/south van ness (exact cross >>st. is capp) >>WHEN: wednesday, may 17th, at 7:30pm >>HOW MUCH: $7-15, sliding scale >>MORE INFO: www.mcmf.org >> >>hope to see you there, >>mike palmieri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: on working class In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, and maybe I've missed lots in this conversational which might've made me feel otherwise, but this all your saying seems, well, very colloquial. AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:50:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jUStin!katKO Subject: Provflux 2006 =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=96?= June 1-4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Provflux is an upcoming psychogeopraphy festival in Providence, happening all over the city from June 1-4. It actually happens to be going on at the same time and in the same city as this year's Congress for New Urbanism. If you're in the area you might think about following it around. More info: http://pipsworks.com/provflux2006/provflux2006.html * * * Blurb from the website: PIPS [People Interested in Participatory Societies] is pleased to announce the 3rd annual Provflux, a weekend-long event dedicated to artistic and social investigations into urban reality and imagination. Provflux is created to be an interdisciplinary gathering for all people interested in urban interventions, networking technology, on the ground issues and solutions, game play, and planning. This year's Provflux will be a small glimpse into the creative and social potential of new ideas and technologies that are becoming part of our urban reality. Within this context, Provflux hopes to create a space for imaginative and innovative solutions to a sometimes homogenous and uninspiring urban landscape. This third year of Provflux is proud to host a broad range of artists, mappers, thinkers, architects, and visionaries, all who will be presenting their visions of the city. The public is invited to participate in these artistic and social investigations into urban reality and imagination. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 17:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: ATL poetry event: How Stuff Works MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit every other month the Atlanta Poets Group and special guests present "Language Harm," Georgia's most scintillating poetry performance event tonight the theme is "How Stuff Works" at: eyedrum 290 Martin Luther King Jr. Drive Atlanta 8:00 pm Wed. May 17, 2006 admission: $4 http://www.eyedrum.org/ http://www.atlantapoetsgroup.net/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:10:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Lipstick of Noise - Tracklist to Date Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The Lipstick of Noise: Listening & Linking to Poetry Audio Files http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.html Tracks discussed to date (most recent first): Mei-mei Berssenbrugge - from Safety Kenneth Goldsmith - Sings Adorno Kit Robinson - Return on Word bpNichol - Not What the Siren Sang but What the Frag Ment Brenda Coultas - Opening the Cabinet Anselm Berrigan - We're Not Going to Turn Me In Tom Raworth - Catacoustics Tracie Morris - My Great Grand Aunt Meets a Bush Supporter Brian Kim Stefans / Roger Pellet - I Know a Man Ron Padgett - Bob Creeley Breakthrough Barbara Guest - An Emphasis Falls on Reality & Quoting Adorno Sawako Nakayasu - Capacity Gary Sullivan - Hello & Welcome to Poetry Phone Elizabeth Willis - Kiss Me Deadly Ange Mlinko - Poem Bejeweled by Proper Nouns Jaap Blonk - Flux-de-Bouche John Wieners - The Garbos & Dietrichs Linh DInh - Acoustics Erica Hunt - Ecstasy Tips on what to listen to next always appreciated! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:15:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Palma Subject: L.A. Press club invitation: Jason Leopold and Allan MacDonell in conversation with Evan Wright Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Los Angeles Press club invites you to: News Junkie and Prisoner of X grilled by Generation Kill. WHAT: A reception sponsored by Vampire for two now-sober journalistic troublemakers:=20 =80Allan MacDonell , whose incendiary memoir, Prisoner of X: 20 Years in the Hole at Hustler Magazine (Feral House), has been featured in the NY Times, NY Post, Rolling Stone, Vanity Fair and NPR; and =80Jason Leopold , the obsessive-compulsive investigative journalist very muc= h in the news lately=20 . His News Junkie (Process) details the felonious conduct prior to his rise and fall at the Los Angeles Times, Salon and Dow Jones Newswires, and later his rise once again in the independent media. FOLLOWED BY: A discussion with the two writers moderated by =80Evan Wright, whose bestselling Generation Kill, about American grunts in Iraq, won the 2005 PEN award for the best work of researched nonfiction. WHEN: Thursday, May 18. Reception with Vampire wines, vodka and energy drinks begins at 6:30 p.m., with presentation and Q & A starting at 7:30 p.m. WHERE: The Steve Allen Theater located in Los Feliz/East Hollywood, 4773 Hollywood Blvd., one block west of Vermont. Plenty of free parking. Check out www.steveallentheater.com for details.=20 WHY: Because Chuck (Fight Club) Palahniuk sez, "Prisoner of X is hours of guilty pleasure that pass like seconds. Here's the unsafe, hook-up sex of memoir. You'll need to indulge before the restraining orders pull this grea= t book off of store shelves." Because Greg Palast ( The Best Democracy Money Can Buy) sez, "Every author in America should read News Junkie, then quit o= r riot." And Jason Leopold's TruthOut.org stories have been subpoenaed by Scooter Libby's attorney in Plamegate, and Jason's Halliburton in Iran stor= y was selected for inclusion in this year's Project Censored collection. YOU MIGHT BE LUCKY: And win free signed copies of Prisoner of X and News Junkie.=20 COST: free for members, $5 for non-members, so why don't you join! RSVP IS A MUST! To: rsvp@lapressclub.org =20 LINKS FOR MORE INFO: www.lapressclub.org www.vampire.com =20 www.prisonerofx.com www.newsjunkiebook.com www.feralhouse.com www.processmediainc.com =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anna Vitale Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I've seen Bukowski: Born Into This and Bukowski really makes himself look foolish because he throws a temper tantrum and starts kicking Linda Bukowkski. It is pretty awful and I certainly wouldn't have ever gone out with him! Anna V. On 5/17/06, Mairead Byrne wrote: > > I don't think anyone needs their teeth knocked in. On the other hand, I > like your use of "stoops": bullies always stoop, i.e., they like prey > smaller than they are. Women are good, children are excellent. Anyway, = I > am sorry about your disappointment. I know far less about Bukowski than = you > do, but would not be amazed to hear that he was abusive to women. > Mairead > > >>> CAConrad9@AOL.COM 05/17/06 11:43 AM >>> > A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their nam= e > I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just > told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) > where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! > > And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. > > And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying > that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other > places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had > arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early > 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was > never advocating misogyny!" > > This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my > good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that > the world gets its true focus on. > > It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be > able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. > > Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. > > Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was > as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski > in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, > he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a > Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a > light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. > So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. > > CAConrad > CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) > for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ > (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) > "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be > restrained...." > --William Blake > for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) > for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ > (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > > > > > > --=20 live more: annavitale.blogspot.com www.myspace.com/meltingmoments ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:45:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: <00ca01c679c9$eeab9f10$6401a8c0@LENOVO5E22278F> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You honestly thought a guy that treated poetry and language so badly would treat women better? On 17-May-06, at 8:52 AM, Michael Rothenberg wrote: > haven't you ever been in a relationship? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen Conrad" > > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:43 AM > Subject: some very sad news to share about Bukowski > > >> A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their >> name >> I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just >> told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) >> where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! >> And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. >> And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying >> that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other >> places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had >> arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early >> 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was >> never advocating misogyny!" >> This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my >> good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that >> the world gets its true focus on. >> It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to >> be >> able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. >> Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. >> Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was >> as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski >> in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, >> he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a >> Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a >> light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. >> So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. >> CAConrad >> CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >> for poem samples from the book go to: >> _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those >> who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >> restrained...." >> --William Blake >> for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >> (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ >> http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >> (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > > G.H. Bowering, D.Litt. I am signing off on the above. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:26:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Wilkinson Subject: 2 Readings this weekend in Brooklyn & NYC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, all, I'm reading with the lovely Mathias Svalina on Friday evening at 7pm at Pete's Candy Store in Williamsburg: 709 Lorimer St.(between Frost and Richardson) Williamsburg. Directions: Take the G to Metropolitan or the L to Lorimer or the J/Mto Lorimer. And I'm reading with Edmund Berrigan on Sunday afternoon for the Burning Chair series at 4 p.m. in the Cloister Café garden 238 E. 9th Street between 2nd and 3rd Aves. thank you for your interest, Joshua Marie Wilkinson http://eyelashfire.blogspot.com --- kevin thurston wrote: > sorry, david, but in this example: > > Make sure you use the appropriate words for the > speaker. The cruder the > better. Cock is cool, but fuckbat is fantastic! > Dillywong is wrong. > > dillywong is absolutely right. > > -- > http://fuckinglies.blogspot.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:00:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mona Baroudi Subject: Out of the office Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Thank you for your message. I am out of the office until Tuesday, May 23 and will respond upon my return. For immediate assistance, please contact Intersection's Administrative Offices at 415.626.2787. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:29:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Bukowski, Booze, & name calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Misogynist? Misanthrope?=20 Labels; I dislike labels.=20 I've read a great deal of labeling here on the list. Fact is, I've been = labeled. =20 I started reading Bukowski about 4 years ago. I'm a fan of his writing. = =20 And I'm confused. =20 How does the fact that some footage exists in which it is alleged he = "abused" a woman (and I'm not really certain what exactly "abused" = means) diminish any artistic accomplishments?=20 Does not the work stand for and by itself? Is it not possible to have = good poetry from a sociopath? =20 That the man was (allegedly) an abusive, macho-moron speaks of the man, = not of his works. But that is a minor point logically. =20 Does it not strike any of the rest of you that labeling a man based on = documented behavior in one instance may well be a case of leaping to = conclusions...one swallow still does not a summer make, in my mind. =20 Too, there may be another side to the discussion of the man...he was a = hard drinker, No, that's inaccurate. He was a drunkard; he drank = regularly to excess. Was it Rodney Dangerfield who said: I never knew = he drank until I saw him sober one night. =20 The point is some people become different people under the = influence...perhaps that should read, all people are different people = when intoxicated. =20 Is there any dispute to the allegation here that alcohol is a mind and = behavior altering drug? Do we see, in a taped episode of an abusive man, a drunk misbehaving? =20 My father was a mean drunk. He drank ,and he beat up folks, his = children, his friends, his wife, strangers in the bar...didn't matter = the sex or the relationship...dad just beat up folks when he was drunk.=20 Once, my mother sent me out to the bar to bring him home to dinner; I = got to the front of the bar (Andy's Bar and Grill on Clinton St. in = Binghamton) just in time to see a man come crashing through the front = window of the bar to land on the sidewalk. Dad had, for no apparent = reason, just punched the guy, and the poor guy crashed into the window. = Of course, repayment followed, and of course, there were consequences! = The point is, dad was a mean drunk. =20 Fortunately, dad quit drinking at 36, and spent the remaining 50 years = of his life totally on the wagon. He gave up baseball, booze, and = beating up folks. Some of you might blame baseball for his behavior. = Me, I think the culprit was the Jack Daniels chasers to the beers = (boilermakers too didn't help); although I do acknowledge that boring = baseball games may be strong motivators for violence.=20 Was dad a misogynist because he beat mom? Hmmmmm....I don't think so. = I think dad was out of control because of the alcohol; he beat up dogs, = other drunkards, friends, enemies, relatives, strangers of both sexes. =20 Was Bukowski a misogynist because he "abused (what ever that word means = here) a woman in a taped/video recording? Hmmmmmmmm....I don't think = so. I think Bukowski was a poet, who, under the influence of excessive = alcohol became a mean drunk. That he may have found it easier to be = mean to women may indicate he was more a coward than a misogynist. = However, both coward and misogynist are labels. I'd rather not use = labels.=20 But, hey, what does any of that have to do with Bukowski's works?=20 Not a damn thing. =20 And, are there 'great' works present within the body of the man's = efforts? Who cares! I've no idea how to quantify 'great' as it relates = to modern poetry. And I discount totally that horse shit from the grad = school profs who proclaimed that the measure of a poet was her/his = influence on others. We can't know influence for perhaps centuries. = What will the students of 2205 think of Bukowski? "Damn," they may = utter, "the man was kind to women." =20 Alex=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:34:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Workers spell out their woes in verse In-Reply-To: <20060517190405.39468.qmail@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25689-2185507,00.html By Leo Lewis Businessmen shed light on the real pains of office life as they pour out their hearts in a poetry contest JAPAN is back and good times are rolling again for its overworked white-collar masses. It should be the best of times but the bittersweet wit of the salaryman’s haiku tells a rather different story. In stolen minutes during meetings, on hurried lunch breaks and on their long commutes home, workers have spent the past month squeezing their innermost thoughts on daily working life into 17 pithy syllables. “Do it! Just do it! That was what my boss always shouted, but he was the one that was ‘done’,” runs a hot contender for the coveted Senryu Trophy. “I spend more on daily diet products than I do on daily meals,” moans another. NI_MPU('middle'); Every year since the heady 1980s Dai-Ichi Seimei, the largest life insurance company in Japan, has run a national competition to find the best workers’ senryu, a loose variation on the haiku, with fewer rules and more scope for puns and slang. Because the 750,000 entrants are encouraged to concentrate on the experiences of their daily lives, the competition entries have become one of the most accurate gauges of the salaryman ’s state of mind and, by extension, the national Zeitgeist. A competition organiser said: “Every year it is a reflection of life in modern society because it lets people express their feelings and complaints freely.” The best entries this year draw out the contradictions of renewed economic growth. Salarymen have been repeatedly told that business is booming and that Japan is out of its long rut. M any, however, remain unhappy. “Ten thousand yen to have the dog coiffed, but I can only spend a thousand yen on my haircut,” one poem reads. “It’s always the people who don’t actually need a pension that make decisions about the pension system,” reads another. Some gain particular praise because they exploit a buzz-phrase and play on double meanings, such as: “I wish my wife had a manner [silent] mode like my mobile phone.” The government drive to make salarymen wear jumpers in winter to save on heating and go without ties in summer to save on air-conditioning is regarded by many as being pointless. Hence, a high-ranking entry this year reads: “I have to wear warm biz, but my wallet is always cool biz.” Something that has crept into selection is an increasing bitterness among salarymen about the relatively easy lifestyle of their non-working wives. Salarymen had previously believed that it was their job to provide; now they seem to resent the role. “My wife always eats posh; I just eat cheap nosh,” writes one, and another notes: “The missus always asks, ‘Can I buy this, can I buy that?’ When I know she’s already bought it.” This year the first baby-boomers — Japan’s biggest generation — will retire en masse, and many of their poems reflect the fears of an ageing population. A poem such as “I used to bar-crawl; now I will hospital-crawl”, is a representative example. --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:09:07 -0400 Reply-To: jamie@rockheals.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Subject: Rock Heals for Hagler MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Week 60 is Marvelous http://www.rockheals.com You may or may not know that next Tuesday is Marvelous Marvin Hagler's 52 birthday. You may or may not know he's from Brockton, Mass. You may or may not know that he is and was awesome. So this week Rock Heals celebrates his birth/pays tribute with some fine fine (somwhat) boxing-related writing from Ric Royer and Kevin Thurston. And moreso, recent RH weeks have been pretty boss with work from Don Illich, Bob Massey, Mike Grau, and John Shanchuk-Corrin See-and-me. Some poetry, illustrated poetry, a letter from LA, and a good old Hot House 5 hipping you to some things to look out for. Do enjoy. Do share your own work our way. This is how we do, Rock Heals -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: jamie@rockheals.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: <36B2C4D8-E5FF-11DA-938B-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Not defending his actions -- but is one man kicking one woman misogyny? Probably all in the context, which I haven't seen. And is being more angry about a man hitting a woman because of her womanhood not some other kind of relegation of women to an other/lesser class? Bullying a different matter; I'll be teaching my daughter to punch bullies in the mouth. RE Bukowski, obviously I haven't read enough of his work if my fave thing about him is the Modest Mouse song. It is a really good song though. I may slay the ladies, but I don't beat 'em, jamie.gp George Bowering wrote: > You honestly thought a guy that treated poetry and language so badly > would treat women better? > > On 17-May-06, at 8:52 AM, Michael Rothenberg wrote: > >> haven't you ever been in a relationship? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen Conrad" >> >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:43 AM >> Subject: some very sad news to share about Bukowski >> >> >>> A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use >>> their name >>> I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just >>> told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) >>> where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! >>> And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. >>> And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying >>> that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other >>> places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had >>> arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early >>> 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was >>> never advocating misogyny!" >>> This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my >>> good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that >>> the world gets its true focus on. >>> It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be >>> able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. >>> Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. >>> Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was >>> as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski >>> in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, >>> he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a >>> Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a >>> light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. >>> So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. >>> CAConrad >>> CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >>> for poem samples from the book go to: >>> _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >>> "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to >>> be restrained...." >>> --William Blake >>> for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ >>> http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >>> (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) >> >> >> > G.H. Bowering, D.Litt. > > I am signing off on the above. > -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: The crux of it all In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frankly if we have to disqualify an artist because of personal behaviour or ideology we are going to be excluding allot of people. The reality is that we are a society that is moralistic and hypocritical. People can be two things at once and that does not remove their importance. I have heard poets as varied as Creeley, Ashbery, Frost and Stevens dismissed because they were woman haters or anti semites or some other vice --supposedly- later after time is turns out not to be true I think this is the worst form of Mc Carthyism. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of alexander saliby Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Bukowski, Booze, & name calling Misogynist? Misanthrope? Labels; I dislike labels. I've read a great deal of labeling here on the list. Fact is, I've been labeled. I started reading Bukowski about 4 years ago. I'm a fan of his writing. And I'm confused. How does the fact that some footage exists in which it is alleged he "abused" a woman (and I'm not really certain what exactly "abused" means) diminish any artistic accomplishments? Does not the work stand for and by itself? Is it not possible to have good poetry from a sociopath? That the man was (allegedly) an abusive, macho-moron speaks of the man, not of his works. But that is a minor point logically. Does it not strike any of the rest of you that labeling a man based on documented behavior in one instance may well be a case of leaping to conclusions...one swallow still does not a summer make, in my mind. Too, there may be another side to the discussion of the man...he was a hard drinker, No, that's inaccurate. He was a drunkard; he drank regularly to excess. Was it Rodney Dangerfield who said: I never knew he drank until I saw him sober one night. The point is some people become different people under the influence...perhaps that should read, all people are different people when intoxicated. Is there any dispute to the allegation here that alcohol is a mind and behavior altering drug? Do we see, in a taped episode of an abusive man, a drunk misbehaving? My father was a mean drunk. He drank ,and he beat up folks, his children, his friends, his wife, strangers in the bar...didn't matter the sex or the relationship...dad just beat up folks when he was drunk. Once, my mother sent me out to the bar to bring him home to dinner; I got to the front of the bar (Andy's Bar and Grill on Clinton St. in Binghamton) just in time to see a man come crashing through the front window of the bar to land on the sidewalk. Dad had, for no apparent reason, just punched the guy, and the poor guy crashed into the window. Of course, repayment followed, and of course, there were consequences! The point is, dad was a mean drunk. Fortunately, dad quit drinking at 36, and spent the remaining 50 years of his life totally on the wagon. He gave up baseball, booze, and beating up folks. Some of you might blame baseball for his behavior. Me, I think the culprit was the Jack Daniels chasers to the beers (boilermakers too didn't help); although I do acknowledge that boring baseball games may be strong motivators for violence. Was dad a misogynist because he beat mom? Hmmmmm....I don't think so. I think dad was out of control because of the alcohol; he beat up dogs, other drunkards, friends, enemies, relatives, strangers of both sexes. Was Bukowski a misogynist because he "abused (what ever that word means here) a woman in a taped/video recording? Hmmmmmmmm....I don't think so. I think Bukowski was a poet, who, under the influence of excessive alcohol became a mean drunk. That he may have found it easier to be mean to women may indicate he was more a coward than a misogynist. However, both coward and misogynist are labels. I'd rather not use labels. But, hey, what does any of that have to do with Bukowski's works? Not a damn thing. And, are there 'great' works present within the body of the man's efforts? Who cares! I've no idea how to quantify 'great' as it relates to modern poetry. And I discount totally that horse shit from the grad school profs who proclaimed that the measure of a poet was her/his influence on others. We can't know influence for perhaps centuries. What will the students of 2205 think of Bukowski? "Damn," they may utter, "the man was kind to women." Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:14:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Nick Moudry, Bloodrock, kari edwards on Stoning the Devil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New on "Stoning the Devil" (www.adamfieled.blogspot.com): -- "Superior Kitsch Alert: Bloodrock, "D.O.A.", "Bloodrock U.S.A."" -- Review: Nick Moudry's "High Noon" -- "Catching a Random Buzz: kari edwards" -- "Literary Life: an MFA, the right way" much, much more.... --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: Chicago Review | Mail & Offer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Chicago Review=92s latest issue is now available. (We=92ve been having =20= trouble with our mailing, though, so if you=92re expecting a copy and =20= haven=92t received it yet, please let me know.) To celebrate the =20 issue, which includes a feature on poet Lisa Robertson, we are =20 offering a free copy of Robertson=92s THE MEN: A LYRIC BOOK (just =20 published by BookThug in Toronto) to everyone who purchases a two, =20 three, or five-year subscription. (Just note the offer in the =20 comments field if you order online or on an actual note if you pay by =20= check.) Ordering info my be found here: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/=20 review/subscribe.shtml And info on THE MEN & BookThug may be found here: http://www.bookthug.ca Besides the feature on Lisa Robertson, the issue includes very =20 provocative essays by Stephen Rodefer, Cal Bedient, Eliot Weinberger, =20= and Tim Yu. It also features some amazing poetry by John Matthias, =20 Rosmarie Waldrop, Rusty Morrison, Genya Turovskaya, Peter Gizzi, and =20 many others. Thank you! Joshua Kotin | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | RATES $22 - ONE YEAR $38 - TWO YEARS (may be split between you and a friend) $50 - THREE YEARS $72 - FIVE YEARS Overseas subscriptions add $30/year for postage (Canadian and Mexican =20= orders, please add $10/year)= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:39:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: The crux of it all Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i've even heard, say, Adrienne Rich bashed for being a woman hater or Ashbery bashed for being the wrong kind of queer... etc. etc....and water causes cancer... Chris ---------- >From: Haas Bianchi >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: The crux of it all >Date: Thu, May 18, 2006, 4:32 AM > > Frankly if we have to disqualify an artist because of personal behaviour or > ideology we are going to be excluding allot of people. The reality is that > we are a society that is moralistic and hypocritical. People can be two > things at once and that does not remove their importance. > > I have heard poets as varied as Creeley, Ashbery, Frost and Stevens > dismissed because they were woman haters or anti semites or some other vice > --supposedly- later after time is turns out not to be true > > I think this is the worst form of Mc Carthyism. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of alexander saliby > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 1:30 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Bukowski, Booze, & name calling > > Misogynist? Misanthrope? > > Labels; I dislike labels. > > I've read a great deal of labeling here on the list. Fact is, I've been > labeled. > > I started reading Bukowski about 4 years ago. I'm a fan of his writing. > > And I'm confused. > > How does the fact that some footage exists in which it is alleged he > "abused" a woman (and I'm not really certain what exactly "abused" means) > diminish any artistic accomplishments? > > Does not the work stand for and by itself? Is it not possible to have good > poetry from a sociopath? > > That the man was (allegedly) an abusive, macho-moron speaks of the man, not > of his works. But that is a minor point logically. > > Does it not strike any of the rest of you that labeling a man based on > documented behavior in one instance may well be a case of leaping to > conclusions...one swallow still does not a summer make, in my mind. > > Too, there may be another side to the discussion of the man...he was a hard > drinker, No, that's inaccurate. He was a drunkard; he drank regularly to > excess. Was it Rodney Dangerfield who said: I never knew he drank until I > saw him sober one night. > > The point is some people become different people under the > influence...perhaps that should read, all people are different people when > intoxicated. > > Is there any dispute to the allegation here that alcohol is a mind and > behavior altering drug? > > Do we see, in a taped episode of an abusive man, a drunk misbehaving? > > My father was a mean drunk. He drank ,and he beat up folks, his children, > his friends, his wife, strangers in the bar...didn't matter the sex or the > relationship...dad just beat up folks when he was drunk. > > Once, my mother sent me out to the bar to bring him home to dinner; I got to > the front of the bar (Andy's Bar and Grill on Clinton St. in Binghamton) > just in time to see a man come crashing through the front window of the bar > to land on the sidewalk. Dad had, for no apparent reason, just punched the > guy, and the poor guy crashed into the window. Of course, repayment > followed, and of course, there were consequences! The point is, dad was a > mean drunk. > > Fortunately, dad quit drinking at 36, and spent the remaining 50 years of > his life totally on the wagon. He gave up baseball, booze, and beating up > folks. Some of you might blame baseball for his behavior. Me, I think the > culprit was the Jack Daniels chasers to the beers (boilermakers too didn't > help); although I do acknowledge that boring baseball games may be strong > motivators for violence. > > Was dad a misogynist because he beat mom? Hmmmmm....I don't think so. I > think dad was out of control because of the alcohol; he beat up dogs, other > drunkards, friends, enemies, relatives, strangers of both sexes. > > Was Bukowski a misogynist because he "abused (what ever that word means > here) a woman in a taped/video recording? Hmmmmmmmm....I don't think so. I > think Bukowski was a poet, who, under the influence of excessive alcohol > became a mean drunk. That he may have found it easier to be mean to women > may indicate he was more a coward than a misogynist. However, both coward > and misogynist are labels. I'd rather not use labels. > > But, hey, what does any of that have to do with Bukowski's works? > > Not a damn thing. > > And, are there 'great' works present within the body of the man's efforts? > Who cares! I've no idea how to quantify 'great' as it relates to modern > poetry. And I discount totally that horse shit from the grad school profs > who proclaimed that the measure of a poet was her/his influence on others. > We can't know influence for perhaps centuries. What will the students of > 2205 think of Bukowski? "Damn," they may utter, "the man was kind to > women." > Alex ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:30:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Ecopoetics: DIRE ELGIES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There will be a reading of=20 THE DIRE ELEGIES: 59 Poets on Endangered Species of North America Edited by=20 Karla Linn Merrifield w/ Roger M. Weir Foreword by Bill McKibben =20 on Monday, May 22 at 7:30 pm=20 at Writers & Books=20 (701 University Avenue), Rochester, NY A diversity of poetic aesthetics, style=20 and tone. Amid the grim, if poetic, details=20 of wanton greed and waste are shimmering=20 moments of rapture for the wonders of=20 these fragile species yet remaining on=20 our home continent.=20 Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: S. o. M. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Celebrate Whitman: America's Poet: a reading of Song of Myself event on Sunday, May 21. The reading starts at 2 p.m.at Genesee Country Village & Museum in Mumford, New York. The reading will be at Brooks Grove Church, and it will take a few minutes to get there by foot or by trolley from the front gate, so please budget some extra time for that. You'll find directions to the museum at http://gcv.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:55:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: FW: An Invitation to Read in NYC in August MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please respond to Veronica at veratristan@yahoo.com if you are = interested. And feel free to pass this invitation on.=20 We are writing to invite you to participate in "Finally with Women," a week-long summer reading series at the Cornelia Street Cafe, which will = be held Sunday, August 6 through Thursday, August 10, from 6:30 - 8:00 p.m. Each night will be dedicated to one woman poet and consist of readings = of her work: Sunday, August 6 - Mina Loy Monday, August 7 - Audre Lorde Tuesday, August 8 - Barbara Guest Wednesday, August 9 - Muriel Rukeyser The series will conclude on August 10 with a special performance of = Gertrude Stein's "History or Messages from History." We would love to have you read your favorite poem or two by any of the = four women above. If you are interested and available, please reply to = Veronica at veratristan@yahoo.com and let her know which dates or poets you = prefer. If you know other women writers who might be interested in = participating, please let Veronica know that too. Thanks so much. We look forward to hearing from you. Best,=20 Jen Benka and Veronica Wong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:42:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tb2h Subject: email Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have an eail for Leslie Silko? thanks tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Anne Budgell Subject: Re: email In-Reply-To: <446CFF1E@mtsu20.mtsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed CAN I BE TAKEN OFF THIS MAIL LIST PLEASE?? !!!! thanks >From: tb2h >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: email >Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:42:59 -0500 > >Does anyone have an eail for Leslie Silko? > >thanks > >tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:47:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: The crux of it all In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 18-May-06, at 4:32 AM, Haas Bianchi wrote: > Frankly if we have to disqualify an artist because of personal > behaviour or > ideology we are going to be excluding allot of people. The reality is > that > we are a society that is moralistic and hypocritical. People can be two > things at once and that does not remove their importance. > > I have heard poets as varied as Creeley, Ashbery, Frost and Stevens > dismissed because they were woman haters or anti semites or some other > vice > --supposedly- later after time is turns out not to be true > > I think this is the worst form of Mc Carthyism. > > The worst? I guess you weren't around during the suicides, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:37:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: New Audio: Gliss Comments: To: netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gliss :: A new bit of displacement in your new sonar-based spatiality: http://www.lewislacook.org/yr_lights_r_on/index.html *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| sign up now! poetry, code, forums, blogs, newsfeeds... || http://www.corporatepa.com || Everything creative for business -- New York Web Design and Consulting Corporate Performance Artists --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: The crux of it all In-Reply-To: <18F24FD0-E6A7-11DA-BF20-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed When I was 13 by chance I discovered Rimbaud and it changed my life. I'd never been gaga abt a poet or poetry before but within a year was devouring Baudelaire, Gerard de Nerval and Villon along with Rimbaud. I have read and reread them continuously ever since. I am glad I began with them as they gave me the vivid presentations that a poet's life is never easy. Excepting Nerval, they defied the State, were in trouble with the law and morally suspect shall we say. And on a grand scale! They are also great great writers whose influence is huge. When I read the bios of other poets later on often of course they were milder in adventure and outrage--and often the misdeeds were perhaps of a pettier nature. (Downright disappointing, often enough! ho ho ho!) Yet everyone has their own pettinesses in them--it's just that often people build up poets into heros and heroines, Saints and etc--only to find the cracks and flaws in the statues and then react with horror and revulsion as though monsters have emerged from among the flower pots. I was thinking if i went by some of the criteria that seem to govern this list at times, one wd probably not be allowed to read Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Villon, maybe not even the gentle Gerard. (He would be damned for "orientalism" in his books on his travels in the orient/middle east, egypt--.) I started to wonder if one could compile a list of the approved poets--i.e. those who are safely free of any tainted form of thought or action, word or deed? Would it be a bit like those investigations in to the lives of people proposed for Sainthood? Obviously on a case by case basis--the same factors can be given different weights according to different rules as found laid out at times here. It might be a lot of fun!--Who would emerge from all this?--"Inquiring minds want to know"-- My grandfather, a Quebecois-Ojibway steamfitter, told me one time, "you better watch out, Americans think all French writesr are hoodlums." Right there is part of the attraction of course esp to young people--and of course a good reason to banish them for all their rotten thoughts words and deeds. Talk about bad influences! "Honi soit qui mal y pense"!!! >From: George Bowering >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: The crux of it all >Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:47:11 -0700 > >On 18-May-06, at 4:32 AM, Haas Bianchi wrote: > >>Frankly if we have to disqualify an artist because of personal behaviour >>or >>ideology we are going to be excluding allot of people. The reality is that >>we are a society that is moralistic and hypocritical. People can be two >>things at once and that does not remove their importance. >> >>I have heard poets as varied as Creeley, Ashbery, Frost and Stevens >>dismissed because they were woman haters or anti semites or some other >>vice >>--supposedly- later after time is turns out not to be true >> >>I think this is the worst form of Mc Carthyism. >> >> >The worst? > >I guess you weren't around during the suicides, etc. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:55:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: About Noon MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Philip - How do I order a copy of Noon: A Journal of the Short Poem? Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Petermeier Subject: Bukowski & The Lipstick of Noise In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey all, I'm a digest subscriber so I'm lumping these responses together. On Wed, 17 May 2006 11:43, CAConrad wrote: > After we shared our disappointment, he told me that > the only poem to ever make him cry was a Bukowski > poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a > light on a bleak working class world we understood > as our own. So, we can still have that. But it's a > little harder. Here's a Bukowski poem that I used to see all the time when riding on the bus. Maybe it'll help: ******************* oh yes i've been so down in the mouth lately that sometimes when i bend over to lace my shoes there are three tongues. ******************* It's been ages since I've read Bukowski, and then it was just "Ham on Rye" and "Women." I've heard high praise for "Post Office", but never got around to reading it. The movie "Barfly" was a phony fantasy, whereas his voice over for "The Best Hotel on Skid Row" seemed to capture his reality, though it wasn't about him. I haven't read hardly any of his poetry, but I've enjoyed this discussion. It makes me want to pull out my vinyl copy of "Charles Bukowski Reads His Poetry" and give it another listen. The man obviously had some problems. But, like Henry Rollins, Bukowski got lots of people, who might not otherwise have bothered, to read poetry. Too many people are turned off poetry by the narrow academic spiel and snob attitude they get through schooling. That said there are no heroes, just flawed human beings trying to do the best they can, and, like even the best baseball players, mostly failing. But, whattayagonnado? On Wed, 17 May 2006 16:45, George Bowering wrote: > You honestly thought a guy that treated poetry and > language so badly would treat women better? I have heard some Canadian friends compare Al Purdy to Charles Bukowski as a form of introduction for ignorant Americans like myself. Having recently read your book "Al Purdy", I'm sure you don't agree with the comparison. I haven't read much of Al Purdy's poetry yet. Perhaps you could offer a better introduction with a short explanation of how Al Purdy better represents a working class, beer drinking poet, and why perhaps everyone should try reading Purdy instead of Bukowski. On Wed, 17 May 2006 18:10, Steve Evans wrote: > The Lipstick of Noise: Listening & Linking to Poetry > Audio Files http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.html Thanks for posting this. I've checked out Paul Dutton, bpNichol and Tracie Morris so far, and plan on listening to the rest. I've got a sound poem of my own that might fit in, but I haven't recorded it yet. peace, love and understanding (never give up!) Steve Petermeier no man's land minneapolis, mn usa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 18:05:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the poetry project 5/19 - 5/26 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Loves of Our Rain-soaked Existence, We have all sorts of events next week at all sorts of times and we would be so happy to see you. Thunder! The Poetry Project Friday, May 19, 7:00pm Implicit/Complicit: Performance By My Invisible Within the past year, Providence-based writers Popahna Brandes, Carolina Maugeri, and Miranda F. Mellis formed the string collaborative, My Invisible. Their recombinant sound ranges from pop, art rock, to ethereal chamber noir. Tonight's performance will be based on a song cycle-in-progress, and followed by a discussion of the band's collaborative process. My Invisible debuted in January as the opening act for Rebecca Gates at The Knitting Factory and has recently accompanied Anne Waldman at Providence's Downcity Poetry Series. "Implicit/Complicit" is a song on the band's eponymous first album (available at www.myinvisible.com). Popahna Brandes is the director of International Inkwell, a yearly writing workshop program in Montelieu, France.=A0Carolina Maugeri is currently writing a lyric sequence exploring images of children's street art in her hometown of Tokuyama, now Shunan-shi, Japan. Miranda F. Mellis is an editor at Encyclopedia (www.encyclopediaproject.org). Most recently her stories have appeared in Denver Quarterly and Fence. Monday, May 22, 8:00pm Aase Berg & Lara Glenum Aase Berg was among the founding members of the Stockholm Surrealist Group in 1986. Her first book, Hos r=E5djur (With Deer), was published by Bonnier i= n 1997. Her first book in English translation, entitled Remainland: Selected Poems of Aase Berg, translated by Johannes G=F6ransson, was recently publishe= d by Action Books. She currently resides in Stockholm. Lara Glenum is the author of The Hounds of No (Action Books) and is a Fulbright recipient. This reading is made possible in part by a grant from The American-Scandinavian Foundation. Wednesday, May 24, 8:00pm Robert Hershon & Harvey Shapiro Robert Hershon's poetry collections include Into a Punchline, The German Lunatic and, just out, Calls from the Outside World. He is co-editor of Hanging Loose Press, which celebrates its 40th birthday this year, and executive director of The Print Center. Harvey Shapiro served as a radio gunner during WWII and received a Distinguished Flyer Cross. He was editor of the New York Times Book Review from 1975-1983, and was a senior editor of=A0 the New York Times Magazine. His latest book is The Sights Along the Harbor: New and Collected Poems.=A0 Friday, May 26, 10:30pm Book Party: Bonny Finberg: How The Discovery Of Sugar Produced The Romantic Era =20 5 guys, 5!!! will read from Bonny Finberg=B9s new short story collection from Sisyphus Press. The collection is comprised of 12 short stories, more like 12 'unfinished novels' or 'story haiku,' from the male point of view. With Leonard Abrams, Regie Cabico, Joe Maynard, Thad Rutkowski and Jameel Moondoc. Bonny Finberg=B9s fiction, poetry, essays, book reviews, and photographs have been published in numerous anthologies, including Best American Erotica of 1996, Crimes of the Beats, Outlaw Bible of American Poetry, and A Gathering of Tribes. the first of all my dreams music by Ellen Mandel, sung by Todd Almond Saturday May 20, 2pm St. Mark=B9s Church Suggested donation $15 New songs to poems by E.E. Cummings, Gerard Manley Hopkins, Seamus Heaney, Daniel Pociernicki and Ellen Mandel Info and reservations: 212-260-5397 . ellenmandel.com some notes on his programming a party for Anselm Berrigan=B9s new book, Some Notes on My Programming, published by DC=B9s Edge Books Tuesday May 23, 6 =AD 7:30pm FREE Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery, NYNY 212-614-0505 . www.bowerypoetry.com Spring Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:38:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Anne Budgell Subject: Re: email In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed CAN I BE TAKEN OFF THIS MAIL LIST PLEASE??? thanks >From: Carolyn Anne Budgell >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: email >Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:54:13 -0700 > >CAN I BE TAKEN OFF THIS MAIL LIST PLEASE?? !!!! thanks > > >>From: tb2h >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: email >>Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:42:59 -0500 >> >>Does anyone have an eail for Leslie Silko? >> >>thanks >> >>tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 20:46:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: email In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit carolyn, follow the guidelines below. best, david The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics@buffalo.edu Poetics Subscription Requests: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is checked about once per week. C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Posting to the List 3. Subscriptions 4. Subscription Options 5. To Unsubscribe 6. Cautions -------------------------------------------- Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its fourth incarnation, the list has about 1300 subscribers worldwide. We also have a substantial number of nonsubscribing readers, who access the list through our web site (see archive URL above). The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange of poems. 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Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . on 5/18/06 8:38 PM, Carolyn Anne Budgell at carolyn_a_budgie@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > CAN I BE TAKEN OFF THIS MAIL LIST PLEASE??? thanks > > >> From: Carolyn Anne Budgell >> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: email >> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:54:13 -0700 >> >> CAN I BE TAKEN OFF THIS MAIL LIST PLEASE?? !!!! thanks >> >> >>> From: tb2h >>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: email >>> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:42:59 -0500 >>> >>> Does anyone have an eail for Leslie Silko? >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> tom bell > > -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:49:50 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: The crux of it all In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 19/5/06 7:01 AM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" wrote: > I started to wonder if one could compile a list of the approved > poets--i.e. those who are safely free of any tainted form of thought or > action, word or deed? Am I right in assuming (I haven't been following this discussion very closely) that this is related to the Poetics policy saying that sexist abuse is as unwelcome as racist abuse? If so, let me clarify. Nobody has, to my knowledge, been talking about "banning" poets for sexist or misogynist writing or behaviour. This dictum relates only to the discourse on the list and seems to me fair enough (it is clearly about abuse). My personal feeling is that if there is a list policy on racist slurs, it is a considerable oversight not to have one on sexism, and personally I've been somewhat puzzled by a number of a postings in which it has been strongly suggested that objections to sexism in writing of any kind are not legitimate criticisms. I do not believe in judging writing from the alleged moral qualities of its writer or from its alleged ideology. I admire Ezra Pound, David Jones, Celine and other writers of dubious political affiliations. I adore Baudelaire despite his explicit disavowal that women are capable of reading poetry. To say that Baudelaire's writing raises questions about gender is NOT the same as saying one should not read him. It might be an invitation, in fact, to read him with closer attention. I assume that we are all adults here. Thank you Alison Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:10:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Brooklyn Housing Position In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, Jennifer. I'm writing to find out if it wd be possible to stay at the apt for a week or so--guess it depends on other stay-ers. I'm a Boston-area poet, 57, missing NY, & know poets & musicians in Brooklyn, so it sounds like fun. Best, Ruth Lepson On 5/12/06 1:43 PM, "reJennifer Bartlett" wrote: > We are looking for someone to "house-sit" our apartment from July 4- July 24 > in a nice, fun part of Brooklyn. We have a 2 bedroom on the first floor with > a yard. Respsonsibilities include feeding a cat, bringing in mail, and > possibly moving car for alternate side parking. We will be charging a very > small fee to cover electicity ect., and a deposit. If the house is clean & > the cat's alive the deposit will be happily returned! > > Email me, Jennifer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:57:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leigh Phillips Subject: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Being more angry about a man hitting a woman because of her womanhood I wouldn't say necessarily relegates woman to Other, but reifies the fact that we're viewed as Other and treated as such by institutionalized, power wielding hierarchies. There is nothing in this culture that suggests women are anything other than Other. The Equal Rights Amendment wasn't passed, women still make .84 cents on the dollar of every man, female poets are only achieving their visibility in numbers as of the last fifty years (as opposed to the entire history of Western Art, devoting its many glossy pages in anthologies to a 'human' experience that is predominantly male owned and operated) and female poetics must combatting the patriarchal power dynamics embedded into the language itself. Go to dictionary.com. Type in "weaker". Here is what it says: Main Entry: fair sex Part of Speech: noun Definition: female sex Synonyms: gentle sex, weaker sex*, women, womenfolk Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. Main Entry: female Part of Speech: noun Definition: woman Synonyms: amazon, babe, beauty, broad, cheesecake, chichi, cupcake, cutie, dame, doll, dowager, duchess, femme, filly, fox, frail, gal, gentlewoman, girl, hussy, kid, lady, madam, mama, matron, old bat, old lady, old woman, petticoat, piece, pinup, seductress, she, she-stuff, shrew, siren, sis, skirt, temptress, ten, tomato, weaker sex*, wench, wren Antonyms: boy, male, man Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. * = informal or slang Main Entry: lady Part of Speech: noun Definition: woman Synonyms: adult, babe, bag, baroness, bitch, broad, butterfly, contessa, countess, dame, doll, duchess, empress, female, gal, gentlewoman, girl, little woman, mama, mare, matron, missus, mistress, noblewoman, old bag, old lady, old woman, petticoat, princess, queen, queen bee, rib, squaw, sultana, weaker sex* Antonyms: man Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. * = informal or slang Was Bukowski a misogynist? I don't know. If he was, he surely isn't alone. This seems to be the broader question: can we avoid falling into tropes, where the male speaker articulates 'the human experience' and the female subject is the space upon which his desire is enacted or projected? "A poet looks at the world / as a man looks at a woman." -Wallace Stevens. Ruth Stone says in response, "I can never know what a man sees / when he looks at a woman. / This is a sealed universe. / On the outside of the bubble / everything is stretched to infinity” We need to seek infinity. Take Heart, Infinity Girl Myth, by Muriel Rukeyser Long afterward, Oedipus, old and blinded, walked the roads. He smelled a familiar smell. It was the Sphinx. Oedipus said, “I want to ask one question. Why didn’t I recognize my mother?” “You gave the wrong answer, said the Sphinx. “But that was what made everything possible,” said Oedipus. “No,” she said. “When I asked, what walks on four legs in the morning, two at noon, and three in the evening, you answered man. You didn’t say anything about woman.” “When you say Man,” said Oedipus, “you include women too. Everyone knows that.” She said, “That’s what you think.” From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Reply-To: jamie@rockheals.com To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:30:22 -0400 Not defending his actions -- but is one man kicking one woman misogyny? Probably all in the context, which I haven't seen. And is being more angry about a man hitting a woman because of her womanhood not some other kind of relegation of women to an other/lesser class? Bullying a different matter; I'll be teaching my daughter to punch bullies in the mouth. RE Bukowski, obviously I haven't read enough of his work if my fave thing about him is the Modest Mouse song. It is a really good song though. I may slay the ladies, but I don't beat 'em, jamie.gp George Bowering wrote: You honestly thought a guy that treated poetry and language so badly would treat women better? On 17-May-06, at 8:52 AM, Michael Rothenberg wrote: haven't you ever been in a relationship? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen Conrad" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: some very sad news to share about Bukowski A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their name I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early 90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was never advocating misogyny!" This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that the world gets its true focus on. It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) G.H. Bowering, D.Litt. I am signing off on the above. -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:26:06 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Wow, Leigh. That thesaurus thing took me aback rather... And yes, quite, on your other points. Btw, Some people have kindly written to tell me that the McCarthyism tag is to do with the discussion of Bukowski's personal behaviour. Of course I am aware of this. All the same, the subtext is that discussing gender issues i= n work is the same as calling for blackbans on authors. My point holds: it isn't.=20 Cheers A On 19/5/06 12:57 PM, "Leigh Phillips" wrote: > Go to dictionary.com. Type in "weaker". Here is what it says: >=20 > Main Entry: fair sex > Part of Speech: noun > Definition: female sex > Synonyms: gentle sex, weaker sex*, women, womenfolk > Source: Roget's New Millennium=99 Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) > Copyright =A9 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. >=20 > Main Entry: female > Part of Speech: noun > Definition: woman > Synonyms: amazon, babe, beauty, broad, cheesecake, chichi, cupcake, cutie= , > dame, doll, dowager, duchess, femme, filly, fox, frail, gal, gentlewoman, > girl, hussy, kid, lady, madam, mama, matron, old bat, old lady, old woman= , > petticoat, piece, pinup, seductress, she, she-stuff, shrew, siren, sis, > skirt, temptress, ten, tomato, weaker sex*, wench, wren > Antonyms: boy, male, man > Source: Roget's New Millennium=99 Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) > Copyright =A9 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. > * =3D informal or slang >=20 > Main Entry: lady > Part of Speech: noun > Definition: woman > Synonyms: adult, babe, bag, baroness, bitch, broad, butterfly, contessa, > countess, dame, doll, duchess, empress, female, gal, gentlewoman, girl, > little woman, mama, mare, matron, missus, mistress, noblewoman, old bag, = old > lady, old woman, petticoat, princess, queen, queen bee, rib, squaw, sulta= na, > weaker sex* > Antonyms: man > Source: Roget's New Millennium=99 Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) > Copyright =A9 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. > * =3D informal or slang Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:42:58 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Rowland Subject: Re: About Noon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for asking, Charlotte. You can order directly from me, at the address below. If you let me know your address, and whether you'd like a copy of the next issue or latest issue (#3) and/or #2, I'll put in the post asap. The journal appears twice a year, in March and September. Single issue, airmail postage included: US$14 / GBP 7.50 / 1500 Japanese yen. (Double that for annual subscription.) International postal money order (made payable to Philip Rowland), British bank cheque, cash or IRCs acceptable. Philip Rowland, editor NOON: JOURNAL OF THE SHORT POEM 506 Brillia Gaien Dewazaka 4 Minami Motomachi Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0012 Japan rowlandnoon@mac.com On May 19, 2006, at 6:55 AM, Charlotte Mandel wrote: > Philip - > How do I order a copy of Noon: A Journal of the Short Poem? > Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 01:36:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before you get too impressed, Alison, you might=20 want to check the thesaurus for "man": Main Entry: man Part of Speech: noun=20 2 Definition: male Synonyms: ape, beau, beefcake, blade, bloke,=20 boy, boyfriend, bub, buster, butch, cat, chap,=20 daddy, dude, fellow, gent, gentleman, guy, he,=20 hunk, husband, jock, lord, lover, macho, master,=20 mister, old man, papa, partner, pops, sir, spouse, stud, swain*, wolf Antonyms: woman Mark At 12:26 AM 5/19/2006, you wrote: >Wow, Leigh. That thesaurus thing took me aback rather... And yes, quite, on >your other points. > >Btw, Some people have kindly written to tell me that the McCarthyism tag is >to do with the discussion of Bukowski's personal behaviour. Of course I am >aware of this. All the same, the subtext is that discussing gender issues= in >work is the same as calling for blackbans on authors. My point holds: it >isn't. > >Cheers > >A > > >On 19/5/06 12:57 PM, "Leigh Phillips" wrote: > > > Go to dictionary.com. Type in "weaker". Here is what it says: > > > > Main Entry: fair sex > > Part of Speech: noun > > Definition: female sex > > Synonyms: gentle sex, weaker sex*, women, womenfolk > > Source: Roget's New Millennium=99 Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) > > Copyright =A9 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. > > > > Main Entry: female > > Part of Speech: noun > > Definition: woman > > Synonyms: amazon, babe, beauty, broad, cheesecake, chichi, cupcake,= cutie, > > dame, doll, dowager, duchess, femme, filly, fox, frail, gal,= gentlewoman, > > girl, hussy, kid, lady, madam, mama, matron, old bat, old lady, old= woman, > > petticoat, piece, pinup, seductress, she, she-stuff, shrew, siren, sis, > > skirt, temptress, ten, tomato, weaker sex*, wench, wren > > Antonyms: boy, male, man > > Source: Roget's New Millennium=99 Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) > > Copyright =A9 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. > > * =3D informal or slang > > > > Main Entry: lady > > Part of Speech: noun > > Definition: woman > > Synonyms: adult, babe, bag, baroness, bitch, broad, butterfly, contessa, > > countess, dame, doll, duchess, empress, female, gal, gentlewoman, girl, > > little woman, mama, mare, matron, missus,=20 > mistress, noblewoman, old bag, old > > lady, old woman, petticoat, princess, queen,=20 > queen bee, rib, squaw, sultana, > > weaker sex* > > Antonyms: man > > Source: Roget's New Millennium=99 Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) > > Copyright =A9 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. > > * =3D informal or slang > > > >Alison Croggon > >Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au >Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:58:32 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20060519013440.05193030@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 19/5/06 3:36 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Before you get too impressed, Alison, you might > want to check the thesaurus for "man": I did, Mark. The descriptions are somewhat more - uh - I don't know - "masterful", doncha think? They don't have anything to do with "weak" until you click on "boy" and find "mama's boy", aka the feminised man... Cheers A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 23:29:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: <446C5ACE.1000001@rockheals.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Exactly! Mr. Perez! When I said colloquial, I think many of these ideas shared are bordering on archaic, and often racially based. And when I say that poets should be denuded, because at best we can gleen something (at worst, removed them from our way). AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 06:00:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: new at e-x-c-h-a-n-g-e-v-a-l-u-e-s... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My interview with Aldon Nielsen is up. Go to: http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 06:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: jamie@rockheals.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060519062932.87572.qmail@web54403.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Actually responding to the intervening replies, not just the one below... I think I raised "don't hit girls" in the context of the folks on this list (cuz let's realize the consciously-misogynist to not ratio here is most likely better off than the global ratio, and that I would say most of us are "on the same" team vis-a-vis the broader objectives of the fight for equality) + in the context of being someone that is raising a child and dealing with that as a lens on the larger issue -- make sense? I know this isn't a parenting list, but hey, just speaking from where I am. Many would say my daughter is often "dressed like a boy," and I've always thought tomboys are coolest (she's young enough to still be a bit of a molding of "what we want for her"), and yet I still find myself drawn to occassionally dressing her in pink every now and again and being enamored with her looking like a "sweet little girl." I think in the context of this list I don't really need to unpack the massive amount of conflict going on here re how I raise her (in reality) v. my own theoretical/political views on "gender and all that shit." Weren't many of us (of the male persuasion) raised with "don't hit girls" before we were given the "don't pick on people smaller/weaker" than you message? Is that a shorthand your folks used at a time that you weren't able to really break down the complexity of "weaker" and act upon it appropriately? Much like the "hold my hand when you cross the street" rule that's in place until they have the faculties to break the situation down and act accordingly. And yet what mark are these (necessarily?) simplified messages leaving contrary to our goals re gender equalities? How many of these other simplified messages end up nearly-hardwired into our systems to color our reality for(nearly)ever? There's nothing implicitly wrong with going through life with an onboard "don't hit girls" message, but is that an early assault of the "the female of the species as lesser" outlook? Yeah, this is probably 95% unrelated to poetics... except perhaps in a discussion of how one deals with message/intent v. audience reception. Which is a wicked interesting conversation on its own. I promise, I'll go back to lurking soon ;) jamie.gp Alexander Jorgensen wrote: >Exactly! Mr. Perez! When I said colloquial, I think many of these ideas shared are bordering on archaic, and often racially based. > > And when I say that poets should be denuded, because at best we can gleen something (at worst, removed them from our way). > > AJ > > >--- >Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound > >--------------------------------- >Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. > > > -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:22:42 -0400 Reply-To: jamie@rockheals.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit (Oh yeah and in a McSweeney's moment...) People That I Would Exclude from Mairead's "Anyone," Past and Present Your Average Cross Burner The Guy Who Dreamed up "The Inquisition" Hitler Much of the Present U.S. Administration and Congress Phil Hartman's Wife Henry Kissinger That Guy from that Picture Stabbing That Other Guy with the American Flag Sure, an eye for an eye makes man blind -- but have you heard Innervisions? Fingertips Pt. 2? I just wouldn't entirely write off this "blind" thing. A little gravity/levity cocktail, after all, it's Friday, jamie.gp Mairead Byrne wrote: >I don't think anyone needs their teeth knocked in. On the other hand, I like your use of "stoops": bullies always stoop, i.e., they like prey smaller than they are. Women are good, children are excellent. Anyway, I am sorry about your disappointment. I know far less about Bukowski than you do, but would not be amazed to hear that he was abusive to women. >Mairead > > > >>>>CAConrad9@AOL.COM 05/17/06 11:43 AM >>> >>>> >>>> >A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their name >I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just >told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) >where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! > >And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. > >And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying >that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other >places over the years. And I'm not the only one, meaning I've had >arguments with groups in the past, especially the late 80s and early >90s where several of us would be saying, "NO WAY, Bukowski was >never advocating misogyny!" > >This documentary is something I NEED to see. Not to prove my >good friend right, but meaning it's something I NEED to see so that >the world gets its true focus on. > >It's terrible news. It's been years where I've wanted this poet to be >able to stand up for so much and not be the one to stoop to that. > >Men who beat women need their teeth knocked in. > >Late last night I was hanging out with another friend. He was >as shocked as I was by the news of this film showing Bukowski >in the worst possible light. After we shared our disappointment, >he told me that the only poem to ever make him cry was a >Bukowski poem. And it WAS BECAUSE the poem shone a >light on a bleak working class world we understood as our own. >So, we can still have that. But it's a little harder. > >CAConrad >CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) >for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ >(http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) >"Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be >restrained...." >--William Blake >for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ >(http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) >for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ >(http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com) > > > > > > > > -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:39:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leigh Phillips wrote: > Being more angry about a man hitting a woman because of her womanhood > I wouldn't say necessarily relegates woman to Other, but reifies the > fact that we're viewed as Other and treated as such by > institutionalized, power wielding hierarchies. There is nothing in > this culture that suggests women are anything other than Other. The > Equal Rights Amendment wasn't passed, women still make .84 cents on > the dollar of every man, female poets are only achieving their > visibility in numbers as of the last fifty years (as opposed to the > entire history of Western Art, devoting its many glossy pages in > anthologies to a 'human' experience that is predominantly male owned > and operated) and female poetics must combatting the patriarchal power > dynamics embedded into the language itself. > > Go to dictionary.com. Type in "weaker". Here is what it says: After a week of this, maybe it is time at last to call it a night, roll in the political sidewalk, the agendas, excuse-making, and the whatever-the-word-is for man-hating. It's all been here, all week, all the time. Bukowski was a 3rd rate poet and a violent first-rate drunk, a self-promoter who encircled himself with acolytes by dint of what I assume was a magnetic personality. Mike Hammer with a typewriter. Hitler was a charm-boy too. So the myth lives on that this guy could write. Violence against women? What do you expect from a man like this? He was an alcoholic. How come we've missed the dreaded A-word in here? Drunks hurt people physically or emotionally: it's part of the job description. Some alkies do stuff like that; it's not male culture, it's bottle culture. They don't have any self-control so the violence-prone among them kick the crap out of anyone in their way. If two guys get into it in a saloon, it's known as a barroom fight. If it's a guy beating up a woman, it's assault and treating the woman as The Other. Sorry to distress your theory, but in my travels I've met at least one woman who'd been a biker drunk and told me "If you crossed me I was going to kill you." Did that make her Xena Warrior Princess or Xena Woman Wino? When she whupped up on some guy in a bar with a motorcycle chain, was it revenge for the dishonored female sex or indictable assault? I know...I'm missing the point...big news...it's all about oppression by a male power base. Where did I leave my viola? We've gone from the "Buk was a sexist pig" thread to one I heard in my faculty preceptor's apartment in Johnson City, NY in May 1970, from a woman named Rachel Blegen: "All men should be castrated from collective guilt." So this current argument is not quite original. Some questions: 1. I was just removed from a job with a documented (intercepted) age discrimination memo to prove it. The company was Citigroup. I got a lawyer. Nobody did a goddamn thing, except Citi, which offered me a job it then withdrew from the table when I said Yes. Like racist? Try Indian-Giver. So do you think I care about yet another toothless amendment? What would the ERA have proved? 2. Eighty-four cents on the dollar beats not working. Next. 3. Tell me the experience I own because I have outdoor plumbing. Unemployment, age discrimination, lifetime alimony? Right, nobody ever asked me "Honey, make the coffee." If that meant I'd get paid, I'd be there. Hey, you mean Freud MIGHT have been onto something? 5. Put down your crying towel masquerading as political outrage or theory. Do something. Vengeance isn't the Lord's, it's yours. Ken Wolman --------------------- Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com I wouldn't want to have lived without having offended someone.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:41:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leigh Phillips Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: <446DBC92.5020407@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A drunk is a drunk is a drunk is a drunk. I agree wholeheartedly. I was also responding not to specifically Bukowski, but a sentiment that critiquing a male for beating a woman relegates woman to Other. I'm saying, woman is Other. Like it or not. In regards to your response: Wow. That was a little more backlash than was called for. Towards the end of my discussion, I was asking for unity: not division and conquer. Clearly, I was misread and there are better places for my contributions to any dialogue that I might have envisioned here. I am especially appreciative of the personal attack towards the ends, the one that assumes I do nothing of political or social consequence. I am an inbox full of words, and you are entirely estranged from the being on the other end of these words. How dismissive could you possibly be? Forgive me for saying so, but I think your demeanor is damaging to your credibility, not mine. Whatever I said clearly triggered some kind of persecution complex that dominantly expresses itself in the anecdotal and the form of pathos, entirely outside of logical, progressive philosophies of gender inequality. I'm sorry you couldn't see anything in my response that could allow you to contribute this discussion productively. >From: Kenneth Wolman >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes >Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:39:46 -0400 > >Leigh Phillips wrote: >>Being more angry about a man hitting a woman because of her womanhood I >>wouldn't say necessarily relegates woman to Other, but reifies the fact >>that we're viewed as Other and treated as such by institutionalized, power >>wielding hierarchies. There is nothing in this culture that suggests women >>are anything other than Other. The Equal Rights Amendment wasn't passed, >>women still make .84 cents on the dollar of every man, female poets are >>only achieving their visibility in numbers as of the last fifty years (as >>opposed to the entire history of Western Art, devoting its many glossy >>pages in anthologies to a 'human' experience that is predominantly male >>owned and operated) and female poetics must combatting the patriarchal >>power dynamics embedded into the language itself. >> >>Go to dictionary.com. Type in "weaker". Here is what it says: >After a week of this, maybe it is time at last to call it a night, roll in >the political sidewalk, the agendas, excuse-making, and the >whatever-the-word-is for man-hating. It's all been here, all week, all the >time. > >Bukowski was a 3rd rate poet and a violent first-rate drunk, a >self-promoter who encircled himself with acolytes by dint of what I assume >was a magnetic personality. Mike Hammer with a typewriter. Hitler was a >charm-boy too. So the myth lives on that this guy could write. Violence >against women? What do you expect from a man like this? He was an >alcoholic. How come we've missed the dreaded A-word in here? Drunks hurt >people physically or emotionally: it's part of the job description. Some >alkies do stuff like that; it's not male culture, it's bottle culture. >They don't have any self-control so the violence-prone among them kick the >crap out of anyone in their way. If two guys get into it in a saloon, it's >known as a barroom fight. If it's a guy beating up a woman, it's assault >and treating the woman as The Other. Sorry to distress your theory, but in >my travels I've met at least one woman who'd been a biker drunk and told me >"If you crossed me I was going to kill you." Did that make her Xena >Warrior Princess or Xena Woman Wino? When she whupped up on some guy in a >bar with a motorcycle chain, was it revenge for the dishonored female sex >or indictable assault? > >I know...I'm missing the point...big news...it's all about oppression by a >male power base. Where did I leave my viola? We've gone from the "Buk was >a sexist pig" thread to one I heard in my faculty preceptor's apartment in >Johnson City, NY in May 1970, from a woman named Rachel Blegen: "All men >should be castrated from collective guilt." So this current argument is >not quite original. > >Some questions: > >1. I was just removed from a job with a documented (intercepted) age >discrimination memo to prove it. The company was Citigroup. I got a >lawyer. Nobody did a goddamn thing, except Citi, which offered me a job it >then withdrew from the table when I said Yes. Like racist? Try >Indian-Giver. So do you think I care about yet another toothless >amendment? What would the ERA have proved? > >2. Eighty-four cents on the dollar beats not working. Next. > >3. Tell me the experience I own because I have outdoor plumbing. >Unemployment, age discrimination, lifetime alimony? Right, nobody ever >asked me "Honey, make the coffee." If that meant I'd get paid, I'd be >there. Hey, you mean Freud MIGHT have been onto something? > >5. Put down your crying towel masquerading as political outrage or theory. >Do something. Vengeance isn't the Lord's, it's yours. > >Ken Wolman > >--------------------- > >Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com > >I wouldn't want to have lived without having offended someone.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:43:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leigh Phillips Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20060519013440.05193030@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Just a postscript: You looked up man. I didn't look up woman. I looked up "weaker" >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes >Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 01:36:43 -0400 > >Before you get too impressed, Alison, you might want to check the thesaurus >for "man": > >Main Entry: man >Part of Speech: noun >2 >Definition: male >Synonyms: ape, beau, beefcake, blade, bloke, boy, boyfriend, bub, buster, >butch, cat, chap, daddy, dude, fellow, gent, gentleman, guy, he, hunk, >husband, jock, lord, lover, macho, master, mister, old man, papa, partner, >pops, sir, spouse, stud, swain*, wolf >Antonyms: woman > >Mark > > > >At 12:26 AM 5/19/2006, you wrote: >>Wow, Leigh. That thesaurus thing took me aback rather... And yes, quite, >>on >>your other points. >> >>Btw, Some people have kindly written to tell me that the McCarthyism tag >>is >>to do with the discussion of Bukowski's personal behaviour. Of course I am >>aware of this. All the same, the subtext is that discussing gender issues >>in >>work is the same as calling for blackbans on authors. My point holds: it >>isn't. >> >>Cheers >> >>A >> >> >>On 19/5/06 12:57 PM, "Leigh Phillips" wrote: >> >> > Go to dictionary.com. Type in "weaker". Here is what it says: >> > >> > Main Entry: fair sex >> > Part of Speech: noun >> > Definition: female sex >> > Synonyms: gentle sex, weaker sex*, women, womenfolk >> > Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) >> > Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. >> > >> > Main Entry: female >> > Part of Speech: noun >> > Definition: woman >> > Synonyms: amazon, babe, beauty, broad, cheesecake, chichi, cupcake, >>cutie, >> > dame, doll, dowager, duchess, femme, filly, fox, frail, gal, >>gentlewoman, >> > girl, hussy, kid, lady, madam, mama, matron, old bat, old lady, old >>woman, >> > petticoat, piece, pinup, seductress, she, she-stuff, shrew, siren, sis, >> > skirt, temptress, ten, tomato, weaker sex*, wench, wren >> > Antonyms: boy, male, man >> > Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) >> > Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. >> > * = informal or slang >> > >> > Main Entry: lady >> > Part of Speech: noun >> > Definition: woman >> > Synonyms: adult, babe, bag, baroness, bitch, broad, butterfly, >>contessa, >> > countess, dame, doll, duchess, empress, female, gal, gentlewoman, girl, >> > little woman, mama, mare, matron, missus, mistress, noblewoman, old >>bag, old >> > lady, old woman, petticoat, princess, queen, queen bee, rib, squaw, >>sultana, >> > weaker sex* >> > Antonyms: man >> > Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.2.1) >> > Copyright © 2006 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved. >> > * = informal or slang >> >> >> >>Alison Croggon >> >>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au >>Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:11:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffre Jullic Subject: ON BECOMING FLARF: sixteen accidents in Ron Silliman's blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 19 May 2006: It’s not an accident that American poetry in my lifetime has made the transition ... 16 May 2006: It’s no accident that on the 50th anniversary of the publication of Howl ... 31 Mar 2006: ... Jarnot’s insertion of a word favored by Ezra Pound – the two final words of Canto I are So that – hardly can be an accident. 10 May 2006: Similarly, I take it as no accident that the collection ends with Kathleen Fraser’s work ... 9 May 2006: ... (and no accident here that Remington, major manufacturer of rifles, was likewise one of the first ... 19 Apr 2006: But it’s not an accident that the first thing we did when we got to the museum was sit ... 3 Mar 2006: It’s not an accident that in Jordan Davis' "nameless history" ... 13 Mar 2006: The cover is not an accident. 3 Feb 2006: It’s not an accident that Larry Fagin listed Mayakovsky ... 26 Dec 2005: But it’s no accident that so many of his students ended up as serious ... 6 Dec 2005 : It’s hardly any accident that the great younger musicians opt ... 15 Jul 2005: ... – the Olson allusion is no accident – ... 4 May 2005: Nor in much of the School of the Q. That’s not an accident – that is what they’re after. 26 Apr 2005: ... he may be the best living oral presenter of poetry we have, which is not an accident since he is the man ... 7 Sep 2005: ... the lack of development on the part of the others is not an accident. 11 Jul 2005: By means of no accident, Fitterman traces 80 Flower’s origins ... http://www.ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:28:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leigh Phillips wrote: > In regards to your response: > > Wow. That was a little more backlash than was called for. Towards the > end of my discussion, I was asking for unity: not division and > conquer. Clearly, I was misread and there are better places for my > contributions to any dialogue that I might have envisioned here. Backlash? In the end I was really agreeing with you, just summoning people to take responsibility. You remember the battle over the ERA, so do I. It became difficult to sustain after awhile because I, at least, started to see an expectation that any law could change something. > I am especially appreciative of the personal attack towards the ends, > the one that assumes I do nothing of political or social consequence. I'm glad you appreciated it, but that wasn't my intention. Oh, the crying towel comment? The Freud comment. Okay, yes, those were over the top. I can't make it up to you so all I can say is I regret having said it. > I am an inbox full of words, and you are entirely estranged from the > being on the other end of these words. I am not trying to be unkind but I could care less about the being behind your words. > How dismissive could you possibly be? I don't know. I keep expanding the limits. > Forgive me for saying so, but I think your demeanor is damaging to > your credibility, not mine. Whatever I said clearly triggered some > kind of persecution complex that dominantly expresses itself in the > anecdotal and the form of pathos, entirely outside of logical, > progressive philosophies of gender inequality. Right, the pathetic phallusy. Like I sad, I'm having 1970 flashbacks here. You were and are substituting political rhetoric for experience, however you define that somewhat elusive term. If you wish to read what I said as dismissive, oh well. I don't care much about credibility. Credibility with whom? Were you about to offer me a reading series of chapbook before I said what I did? Unless you are of direct use to me, I'm not interested. > I'm sorry you couldn't see anything in my response that could allow > you to contribute this discussion productively. But you did. That is enough. Now you will sling some more shit at me in the dialectic of the Frankfurt School, I will delete it unread, and you will have had the famous Last Word. Dona nobis pacem, Ken --------------------- Kenneth Wolman www.kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com I wouldn't want to have lived without having offended someone.--Anon. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:28:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Crake Subject: Pinstripe Fedora: Issue 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pinstripe Fedora (www.pinstripefedora.com) Issue 2 is out now, featuring the work of: Stefania Iryne Marthakis Michael Bernstein kari edwards Lisa Jarnot Lewis Warsh Daneen Wardrop Eric Elshtain Harvey Goldner Jefferson Navicky James Sanders Jennifer K. Dick Katia Kapovich Letitia Trent Sean Burke Tsering Wangmo Dhompa we are currently accepting submissions for issue 3 thank you co-editors/founders Michael Crake Sean Hedden --- Naropa University - an adventure in mind, body, and spirit. http://www.naropa.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:21:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some people have written to me directly about this. And a few say that they can't believe that I didn't know about this. Well, I didn't. Bukowski reminded me of some uncles of mine, okay? Dirty old men who liked drinking, talking dirty, but my uncles were actually kind men, very kind men. From what I am now hearing Bukowski was a brute. Beating and kicking one woman on film, and no, it was not acting. Then there were some surprising e-mails to me that asked WHY I was having such a hard time with this, in fact one saying, Well, c'mon now, how do you feel about Clinton, etc. Well, Clinton? Bill Clinton did not beat on anyone, far as I know. And frankly I do not like Bill Clinton anyway. He's scum, with or without such things in his past. When I wrote the subject line, "some very sad news" I was not being dramatic. It made me sad. And to those who wrote me calling me a YoYo on the issue, I say, HEY, what kind of a person would you prefer I be? One who found out such information and decided to hide it? First of all, why would you want me to do that? Second, why would you think I'm the type of person to do that? I mean, WHERE WERE YOU when you first found out that Pound was an anti-Semite? Because I REMEMBER! I was a kid, and this poet in Philadelphia a good fifteen years older than me had turned me onto some of the cantos, which were blowing my MIND! Then a few months after, he drops that bomb. And I have to say that I'm grateful to have been given the gift of reading the work without all the filtering that certainly would have taken place. That was nice. And fortunate. Fortunate for the sake of the poems. Wish everyone could have that to be honest. It's like a friend of mine years ago, she LOVED Richard Brautigan, LOVED him, practically memorized TROUT FISHING IN AMERICA. Then one day we were at the Dairy Queen where she worked at the time, and she said, "Is he still alive?" And I said NO, he killed himself. For some reason I had just assumed she knew. But she hated him after finding that out, which always seemed stupid to me, but it's not my decision to make. She threw his books out, including the hardcover edition of the now out of print and hard to find TOKYO MONTANA EXPRESS. Anyway, we all have to have our room with such information. It's an ugly thing, men beating women. Have you encountered this? I'm not interested in getting into the details in public, but I have, and I was very young. And there's something about men who do that, who will do that, they're different, this kind of bully. They're pathetic, but their RAGE at being pathetic seems to drive that need to bully and make others suffer. And sometimes it's things like losing a job that kick-starts it. Sometimes it's just who they are, this big, stupid, pathetic man. And a couple people wrote saying that they don't think these men need their teeth kicked in, as I said they did. I'm afraid the answer is that YES they do. And it's NOT just because they deserve it, it's also because some of the men I've encountered who DO these things respond to nothing but brute force. It's the one thing that makes itself around their shielding. And as far as I'm concerned if punching a man in the teeth is going to relieve the suffering of a woman and the children she may have who are also suffering in all this, then so be it. And of course it's not just men who do this. I've known lesbian couples and gay guy couples where this goes on. Few things on Earth are worse. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 08:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A question for those of you who teach creative writing. Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to creative writing to students who don't read poetry, can't in general write or even read well, have the predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of them want to be writers; most are hostile about the actual literature they are required to read. They don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in this broad description, just as accurate as I can be on the level of the demographic. I recognize that people are all unique individuals. Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have worked well in such classes? Add this particular twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy Collins. By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've done it for years. And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more than marginally able to use. Thanks for your insights! Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:35:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And another thing. This is NOT SAYING THAT I'M JOINING the bandwagon with the notion that Creeley, Ginsberg, etc., etc., etc., are woman haters. It makes ME CRAZY when people say such things with no proof, with little more than "a feeling" or some such shit! THIS IS EXACTLY like some queer writers I've met who will USE homophobia to their advantage. It's true, trust me, I've seen it. It pisses me off. There's plenty of misogyny and homophobia on this planet, we certainly don't need to be inventing any. CAConrad CAConrad is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006) for poem samples from the book go to: _http://CAConrad.blogspot.com_ (http://caconrad.blogspot.com/) "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained...." --William Blake for PhillySound: NEW POETRY: _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) for CAConrad's tarot services:_ http://LightOfLakshmi.blogspot.com_ (http://lightoflakshmi.blogspot.com/) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:35:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <20060519153143.49841.qmail@web60025.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd use the Hoover anthology: _Postmodern American Poetry_. Something for everyone. (Well, not for Collins.) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Wallace Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:32 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies A question for those of you who teach creative writing. Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to creative writing to students who don't read poetry, can't in general write or even read well, have the predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of them want to be writers; most are hostile about the actual literature they are required to read. They don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in this broad description, just as accurate as I can be on the level of the demographic. I recognize that people are all unique individuals. Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have worked well in such classes? Add this particular twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy Collins. By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've done it for years. And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more than marginally able to use. Thanks for your insights! Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:56:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <20060519153143.49841.qmail@web60025.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Mark Poems for the Millenium, Vol II is the best I've come up with, tho it has only a sprinkling of each poet. But for innovative poetry, it's terrific, and something they can dip into long after the course. Eliot Weinberger's American Poetry Since 1950 is excellent but I believe out of print. Best, Ruth L. On 5/19/06 11:31 AM, "Mark Wallace" wrote: > A question for those of you who teach creative > writing. > > Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are > familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to > creative writing to students who don't read poetry, > can't in general write or even read well, have the > predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means > to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of > them want to be writers; most are hostile about the > actual literature they are required to read. They > don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots > of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds > are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in > their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please > understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in > this broad description, just as accurate as I can be > on the level of the demographic. I recognize that > people are all unique individuals. > > Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have > worked well in such classes? Add this particular > twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert > Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy > Collins. > > By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone > who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've > done it for years. > > And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more > than marginally able to use. > > Thanks for your insights! > > Mark > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:59:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cheryl Pallant Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mark, I, too, use Hoover's anthololgy. I also use Mary Oliver's A Poetry = Handbook. Inevitably, some complain that there's not enough 19th century = and earlier work; others glad for Hoover, their minds pried open. I also = supplement these texts with handouts, websites, and required attendance = at readings. Cheryl ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Wallace=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all = anthologies A question for those of you who teach creative writing. Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to creative writing to students who don't read poetry, can't in general write or even read well, have the predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of them want to be writers; most are hostile about the actual literature they are required to read. They don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in this broad description, just as accurate as I can be on the level of the demographic. I recognize that people are all unique individuals. Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have worked well in such classes? Add this particular twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy Collins. By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've done it for years. And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more than marginally able to use. Thanks for your insights! Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around=20 http://mail.yahoo.com=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 09:03:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <000501c67b59$f0725b90$f4954682@win.louisiana.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Regular college class, meets for something like 15 weeks. This is not an easy thing, and I've tried various ways, none of which work perfectly. At this point in time I think you're better off making your own anthology, and it doesn't have to be a lot. Even just one poem a week, emphasizing something different either in approach to the making, or something quite technical, or something else. So, 15 poems, that's all, and, I think, enough. Now the question is, when you make your own and photocopy, what to do about permissions? You may be able to get them from publishers; if you're working with living authors, even your peers, you may be able to get them directly from the poets. On the other hand, lately, I've had to teach a more general intro to lit/writing class, and I've had good success with Gardner, Janet E., et al, eds., Literature: A Portable Anthology (Boston: Bedford/St. Martin's, 2004) It has a lot I'd never use (and it also has many short stories and a few plays), but it also has just a little, and enough poetry, that I can use, from Wyatt to Donne and including a bit of Pound, Williams, Stein, Zukofsky, Howe (Susan), Hejinian, O'Hara, Duncan, Creeley, Ginsberg, etc. I've been glad to have it, and sorry that the college where I teach part-time is probably deciding to change to something else, which probably won't have any of the above authors except possibly Wyatt, Donne, Pound & Williams. good luck! charles At 08:35 AM 5/19/2006, you wrote: >I'd use the Hoover anthology: _Postmodern American Poetry_. Something for >everyone. (Well, not for Collins.) > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Mark Wallace >Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:32 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies > >A question for those of you who teach creative >writing. > >Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are >familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to >creative writing to students who don't read poetry, >can't in general write or even read well, have the >predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means >to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of >them want to be writers; most are hostile about the >actual literature they are required to read. They >don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots >of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds >are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in >their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please >understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in >this broad description, just as accurate as I can be >on the level of the demographic. I recognize that >people are all unique individuals. > >Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have >worked well in such classes? Add this particular >twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert >Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy >Collins. > >By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone >who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've >done it for years. > >And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more >than marginally able to use. > >Thanks for your insights! > >Mark > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:05:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Danon Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi -- I teach a population much like yours and what I have done in introductory courses is create my own anthology. I created spurious categories like "vegetables" or "weather" and asked the students to read one or two of these spurious categories (filled with a variety of very good and diverse poems) each week and to perform various kinds of analyses on them. In about week eight I told the students to pull out all the category titles and to redo the anthology in terms of real categories that grew out our discussions of poems in the first eight weeks -- by which point they knew something about poetry and poetics. In class I had them doing constraint based writing and out of class as well. It worked fine. I've never ordered anthologies for my classes. I do order real books. Hope this is useful. Ruth Danon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Wallace" To: Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies >A question for those of you who teach creative > writing. > > Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are > familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to > creative writing to students who don't read poetry, > can't in general write or even read well, have the > predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means > to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of > them want to be writers; most are hostile about the > actual literature they are required to read. They > don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots > of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds > are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in > their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please > understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in > this broad description, just as accurate as I can be > on the level of the demographic. I recognize that > people are all unique individuals. > > Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have > worked well in such classes? Add this particular > twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert > Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy > Collins. > > By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone > who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've > done it for years. > > And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more > than marginally able to use. > > Thanks for your insights! > > Mark > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:09:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Mei-mei Berssenbrugge on Close Listening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed New on "Close Listening" -- & on the occasion of the publication of Mei-mei Berssenbrugge's selected poems, I Love Artists, from the University of California Press-- a radio reading and conversation, taped on April 28 for WPS1.org also: web version on my Summer 2000 conversation with Mei-mei that first appeared in Conjunctions. more information at http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:17:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <20060519153143.49841.qmail@web60025.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Prior to and even with the advent of the Printing Press, my impression is that one could go to a particular site in Paris - next to Notre Dame(?) - and there find manuscript or printed pages for different texts there were hanging from from lines, almost like laundry. A consumer would go around and select the pages that he wanted to anthologize and make his order. Then he was told when to come back and pick up his bound copy. I suspect a fresh velum illuminated manuscript probably took a few months! Is that what happens now at Kinkos with student editions - instructors compose an anthology of x,y and z texts, be it poetry or otherwise? This precedes my student time by a few generations, and these editions - unlike those in Medieval Paris - look like merde. But, anyway, Mark, isn't it possible to put together an anthology of diverse poems into such a gathering and march students off to Kinkos (which is required to pay royalties to the source)? I have not checked out my old company, ebrary (www.ebrary.com). I am not sure how expansive their poetry collection are these days - though they have about 80,000 books and docs in their collectio. But I think a teacher can guid a student to build an anthologies off diverse sources from their publisher collections - and the publishers will be compensated for such use. Has anybody tried this? Stephen Vincent Who is reading with Mark Wallace and Susan Schultz at St. Marks on Wednesday evening, May 31. > A question for those of you who teach creative > writing. > > Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are > familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to > creative writing to students who don't read poetry, > can't in general write or even read well, have the > predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means > to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of > them want to be writers; most are hostile about the > actual literature they are required to read. They > don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots > of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds > are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in > their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please > understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in > this broad description, just as accurate as I can be > on the level of the demographic. I recognize that > people are all unique individuals. > > Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have > worked well in such classes? Add this particular > twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert > Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy > Collins. > > By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone > who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've > done it for years. > > And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more > than marginally able to use. > > Thanks for your insights! > > Mark > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:55:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Kinkos can be hard to deal with on these matters - After an earlier supreme court decision, they started refusing to copy ANYTHING that appeared to have been in print -- including, in 1997, my own copy of my own proof pages for my own book -- Don't know what they're like these days -- Meanwhile, near any college campus you will find copy companies that produce "readers" instructors assemble for their students -- Many of these companies purport to get permissions for the professor -- many of them are doing no such thing -- It us perfectly legal for an instructor to make a copy of an entire poem for every student in the class -- it is illegal to do this again and again with the same poem, as it is illegal to assemble your own anthology from such copies and have the studetns buy it at the copy shop, unless somebody has gotten copyright clearances -- there are some copy shops that actually do what they say they're doing and get the clearance for you - blessings to them for doing so -- On Fri, 19 May 2006 10:17:35 +0000, Stephen Vincent wrote: > Prior to and even with the advent of the Printing Press, my impression is > that one could go to a particular site in Paris - next to Notre Dame(?) - > and there find manuscript or printed pages for different texts there were > hanging from from lines, almost like laundry. A consumer would go around and > select the pages that he wanted to anthologize and make his order. Then he > was told when to come back and pick up his bound copy. I suspect a fresh > velum illuminated manuscript probably took a few months! > > Is that what happens now at Kinkos with student editions - instructors > compose an anthology of x,y and z texts, be it poetry or otherwise? This > precedes my student time by a few generations, and these editions - unlike > those in Medieval Paris - look like merde. > > But, anyway, Mark, isn't it possible to put together an anthology of diverse > poems into such a gathering and march students off to Kinkos (which is > required to pay royalties to the source)? > > I have not checked out my old company, ebrary (www.ebrary.com). I am not > sure how expansive their poetry collection are these days - though they have > about 80,000 books and docs in their collectio. But I think a teacher can > guid a student to build an anthologies off diverse sources from their > publisher collections - and the publishers will be compensated for such use. > > Has anybody tried this? > > Stephen Vincent > Who is reading with Mark Wallace and Susan Schultz at St. Marks on Wednesday > evening, May 31. > > > > > > > > > > A question for those of you who teach creative > > writing. > > > > Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are > > familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to > > creative writing to students who don't read poetry, > > can't in general write or even read well, have the > > predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means > > to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of > > them want to be writers; most are hostile about the > > actual literature they are required to read. They > > don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots > > of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds > > are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in > > their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please > > understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in > > this broad description, just as accurate as I can be > > on the level of the demographic. I recognize that > > people are all unique individuals. > > > > Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have > > worked well in such classes? Add this particular > > twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert > > Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy > > Collins. > > > > By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone > > who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've > > done it for years. > > > > And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more > > than marginally able to use. > > > > Thanks for your insights! > > > > Mark > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:32:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: The crux of it all Comments: cc: Alison Croggon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alison Croggon asks: << Am I right in assuming (I haven't been following this discussion very closely) that this is related to the Poetics policy saying that sexist abuse is as unwelcome as racist abuse? >> Hi Alison, Actually no, so happens you're not right in so assuming. Though I'm by no means a thorough Poetics-list reader myself, I did hap to take note of the posts antecedent to the one that you're replying to here -- David-Baptiste Chirot's. Or at least I noticed enough of 'em to see what's up (and what you've in fact misconstrued). Simply as a fellow reader, I am thus in the position of being able to disabuse you of your erroneous (though quite interesting in its own thoughts) reading of his post. What DBC was discussing in fact had nothing at all to do with the Poetics list or policies about suitable and unsuitable postings. Rather, what he was musing over involved the last several posts (in the past two or more days) from a longer, ongoing exchange about the late Charles Bukowski and the question of that poet's attitudes about or, in the instance, behavior toward women. CA Conrad had been, for a number of days, arguing in defense of Bukowski, praising Bukowski, lionizing Bukowsky, and also repeatedly remarking to the effect that may Bukowski may have been salty and wild in his language but as a man, he was invariably decent (or, at a minimum, non-violent) in his behavior toward members of the fair sex (if you'll permit this Victorianism). This seeming house of cards (as he later evidently seemed to come to deem it) came crashing to the ground, for the good Conrad, with this post yesterday -- http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D44260 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:43:28 EDT From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: some very sad news to share about Bukowski << A good friend of mine (I didn't think to ask permission to use their name I was so STUNNED by the information) who is an excellent source, just told me yesterday afternoon about a documentary (is it new I wonder?) where Bukowski is physically abusive to a woman ON CAMERA! =20 And it wasn't acting, it was a day in the life. =20 And I want to let everyone know I found this out, and am now saying that I apologize for having defended Bukowski here and many other places over the years. [etc.] >> There were then several responses to this, namely, as follows: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D44379 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:52:41 -0700 From: Michael Rothenberg=20 << haven't you ever been in a relationship? >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D44994 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:21:00 -0700 From: Michael Rothenberg=20 << people get out of hand when drinking in a documentary, it's hard for any=20 human being to be the measure of an ideal, audience or artist >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D45126 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:28:43 -0400 From: Mairead Byrne=20 << I don't think anyone needs their teeth knocked in. On the other hand, I like your use of "stoops": bullies always stoop, i.e., they like prey smaller than they are. Women are good, children are excellent. Anyway, I am sorry about your disappointment. I know far less about Bukowski than you do, but would not be amazed to hear that he was abusive to women. >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D46317 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:57:35 -0400 From: Anna Vitale=20 << I've seen Bukowski: Born Into This and Bukowski really makes himself look foolish because he throws a temper tantrum and starts kicking Linda Bukowkski. It is pretty awful and I certainly wouldn't have ever gone out with him! >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D46439 Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:45:25 -0700 From: George Bowering=20 << You honestly thought a guy that treated poetry and language so badly would treat women better? >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D46787 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:29:40 -0700 From: alexander saliby=20 Subject: Bukowski, Booze, & name calling << Misogynist? Misanthrope?=20 Labels; I dislike labels.=20 I've read a great deal of labeling here on the list. Fact is, I've been labeled. =20 I started reading Bukowski about 4 years ago. I'm a fan of his writing. And I'm confused. =20 How does the fact that some footage exists in which it is alleged he "abused" a woman (and I'm not really certain what exactly "abused" means) diminish any artistic accomplishments?=20 Does not the work stand for and by itself? Is it not possible to have good poetry from a sociopath? =20 [etc., etc.] >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D47117 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:30:22 -0400 From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski << Not defending his actions -- but is one man kicking one woman misogyny?=20 Probably all in the context, which I haven't seen. And is being more angry about a man hitting a woman because of her=20 womanhood not some other kind of relegation of women to an other/lesser=20 class? Bullying a different matter; I'll be teaching my daughter to punch=20 bullies in the mouth. [etc.] >> Then the discussion starts (uncertainly) to hone in, in a sense -- http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D47246 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:32:12 -0500 From: Haas Bianchi=20 Subject: The crux of it all << Frankly if we have to disqualify an artist because of personal behaviour or ideology we are going to be excluding allot of people. The reality is that we are a society that is moralistic and hypocritical. People can be two things at once and that does not remove their importance.=20 I have heard poets as varied as Creeley, Ashbery, Frost and Stevens dismissed because they were woman haters or anti semites or some other vice --supposedly- later after time is turns out not to be true I think this is the worst form of Mc Carthyism. >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D47573 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:39:06 -0700 From: Chris Stroffolino=20 Subject: Re: The crux of it all << i've even heard, say, Adrienne Rich bashed for being a woman hater or Ashbery bashed for being the wrong kind of queer... etc. etc....and water causes cancer... >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D48157 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:47:11 -0700 From: George Bowering=20 Subject: Re: The crux of it all > I think this is the worst form of Mc Carthyism. << The worst? I guess you weren't around during the suicides, etc. >> Finally we get to -- http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D48342 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 16:01:49 -0500 From: David-Baptiste Chirot=20 Subject: Re: The crux of it all << When I was 13 by chance I discovered Rimbaud and it changed my life. =20 I'd never been gaga abt a poet or poetry before but within a year was=20 devouring Baudelaire, Gerard de Nerval and Villon along with Rimbaud. I have read and reread them continuously ever since. I am glad I began with=20 them as they gave me the vivid presentations that a poet's life is never easy. Excepting Nerval, they defied the State, were in trouble with the law=20 and morally suspect shall we say. And on a grand scale! They are also great=20 great writers whose influence is huge.=20 [etc., etc. -- an interesting post] >> http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D= 1&O=3DD &P=3D48543 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:47:40 -0700 From: Steve Petermeier <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Bukowski & The Lipstick of Noise << Hey all, I'm a digest subscriber so I'm lumping these responses together. [etc. etc.] The man obviously had some problems. But, like Henry Rollins, Bukowski got lots of people, who might not otherwise have bothered, to read poetry. =20 [etc.] >> --------- Well Alison, I thought there was more, but I'm not seeing / finding it on the archive at the moment. All above found here btw: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=3Dind0605&L=3Dpoetics Anyway, point is: the discussion in question relates to how or whether bad behavior (such as noted above) should / shouldn't be taken into account, in one's assessment of a writer's work. Or something along those lines. Indulging in a rare moment of dubious Poetics list pedantry. hat-tips, d.i. david raphael israel washington dc http://kirwani.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:15:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Often it is copy shops that are physically and/or financially associated wi= th schools that bother paying the royalties. My sister taught at UC Rivers= ide while in grad school there and I know the copy shop she used on campus = payed royalties for her readers, for instance. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ALDON L NIELSEN" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologi= es > Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:55:37 -0400 >=20 >=20 > Kinkos can be hard to deal with on these matters - After an earlier supre= me > court decision, they started refusing to copy ANYTHING that appeared to h= ave > been in print -- including, in 1997, my own copy of my own proof pages fo= r my > own book -- Don't know what they're like these days -- >=20 > Meanwhile, near any college campus you will find copy companies that prod= uce > "readers" instructors assemble for their students -- Many of these compan= ies > purport to get permissions for the professor -- many of them are doing no= such > thing -- >=20 > It us perfectly legal for an instructor to make a copy of an entire poem = for > every student in the class -- it is illegal to do this again and=20 > again with the > same poem, as it is illegal to assemble your own anthology from=20 > such copies and > have the studetns buy it at the copy shop, unless somebody has=20 > gotten copyright > clearances -- >=20 > there are some copy shops that actually do what they say they're doing an= d get > the clearance for you - blessings to them for doing so -- >=20 > On Fri, 19 May 2006 10:17:35 +0000, Stephen Vincent wrote: >=20 > > Prior to and even with the advent of the Printing Press, my impression = is > > that one could go to a particular site in Paris - next to Notre Dame(?)= - > > and there find manuscript or printed pages for different texts there we= re > > hanging from from lines, almost like laundry. A consumer would go aroun= d and > > select the pages that he wanted to anthologize and make his order. Then= he > > was told when to come back and pick up his bound copy. I suspect a fresh > > velum illuminated manuscript probably took a few months! > > > > Is that what happens now at Kinkos with student editions - instructors > > compose an anthology of x,y and z texts, be it poetry or otherwise? This > > precedes my student time by a few generations, and these editions - unl= ike > > those in Medieval Paris - look like merde. > > > > But, anyway, Mark, isn't it possible to put together an anthology of di= verse > > poems into such a gathering and march students off to Kinkos (which is > > required to pay royalties to the source)? > > > > I have not checked out my old company, ebrary (www.ebrary.com). I am not > > sure how expansive their poetry collection are these days - though they= have > > about 80,000 books and docs in their collectio. But I think a teacher c= an > > guid a student to build an anthologies off diverse sources from their > > publisher collections - and the publishers will be compensated for such= use. > > > > Has anybody tried this? > > > > Stephen Vincent > > Who is reading with Mark Wallace and Susan Schultz at St. Marks on Wedn= esday > > evening, May 31. > A question for those of you who teach creative > > > writing. > > > > Here's the set up, which I'm sure many of you are > > > familiar with: I teach a college level introduction to > > > creative writing to students who don't read poetry, > > > can't in general write or even read well, have the > > > predictable and forgiveable ideas about what it means > > > to write poetry and to be an author at all. Some of > > > them want to be writers; most are hostile about the > > > actual literature they are required to read. They > > > don't have much money, so I can't ask them to buy lots > > > of books, and their cultural and racial backgrounds > > > are diverse. Some of them are 19, some 25, a few in > > > their thirties, forties, and fifties. Please > > > understand that I'm not trying to be condescending in > > > this broad description, just as accurate as I can be > > > on the level of the demographic. I recognize that > > > people are all unique individuals. > > > > Have you used any anthologies of poetry that have > > > worked well in such classes? Add this particular > > > twist: I don't want to expose them only to post-Robert > > > Frost American American lyric narratives a la Billy > > > Collins. > > > > By the way, I'm hardly asking this question as someone > > > who is new to teaching this kind of audience: I've > > > done it for years. > > > > And I've still never found an anthology that I'm more > > > than marginally able to use. > > > > Thanks for your insights! > > > > Mark > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com >=20 > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>= >> >=20 > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > --Emily Dickinson >=20 > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >=20 > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 >=20 > (814) 865-0091 > --=20 _______________________________________________ Search for businesses by name, location, or phone number. -Lycos Yellow Pa= ges http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.as= p?SRC=3Dlycos10 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:22:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: where can I get information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit about the "National Uniform Law" - perhaps the text of the proposal and clauses already ratified -- in English translation? It was proposed a few days ago, and up before Iranian Parliament this week. Thanks, Catherine Daly cadaly@comcast.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 11:37:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <200605191755.NAA20021@webmail18.cac.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know that Antioch makes the readers for instructors and actively = encourage them to make readers. =20 I have used Cary Nelson's anthology, because the MAPS supplementary = info. online is so fine; I know that Joel and Bill at Factory School are = making some sort of WIKI anthology or something. Uh -- go to the site. I have also used the online component of my class to link to poems = online, essentially making my own anthology. While this doesn't make students without money for paper and toner very happy, I have also done a scrap = paper collective sort of thing after realizing my students were printing their papers out onto scrap paper, i.e., there's no reason they can't print = the anthologies out onto scrap paper, and if there's anything we're long on, = it is scrap paper. School administrations, even ones who haven't worked out the reader / = rights situation, really love an online component to a class! Also, obviously, if you translate a poem, the copyright to the = translation is yours, so I've translated some poems for students to get around that. Plus, everyone gets to make fun of my foreign languages, and that helps = a lot when almost everyone in class is multilingual. Not that that would apply to you Mark. One of the things I also did -- which I learned from Dan Halpern -- was = to ask students to compile an anthology of ten poems (I usually did "all published in book form though the poem doesn't have to be") and bring = enough copies for everyone. I had former slammers who found the KGB anthology = and online audio that way (basically, you get students combing the internet because then they don't have to type or Xerox). Anyway, everyone ends = up with a pretty sizable and very eccentric anthology, and you get a really good picture of what people are reading, or if they're not, what they're looking at instead. All best, Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <000001c67b73$46dcaa80$6701a8c0@KASIA> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit good points, all! thanks. for a traditional anthology, Poulin & Waters' Contemp. Am Poetry isn't bad & at least includes Ashbery, Creeley, Ginsberg, Hass, Kizer, Merrill, O'Hara, Palmer, Rich, & CD Wright, as well as the usual suspects, and it has pix. Moving Borders: Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women is wonderful, if you are going to use more than one text. I always send my students to the Buffalo website to listen to poets before class in Contemp. Am. Poetry courses but for poetry workshop, too. And Ubu and Penn. And ask them to go to 2 poetry readings. Plus I ask at least one poet to come to class each term--Happy Birthday this weekend, dear Creeley, who came a few times & thrilled the students. also I ask that each student talk for a few mins. abt a poet s/he likes, & hand out copies of his/her poems. On 5/19/06 2:37 PM, "C Daly" wrote: > I know that Antioch makes the readers for instructors and actively encourage > them to make readers. > > I have used Cary Nelson's anthology, because the MAPS supplementary info. > online is so fine; I know that Joel and Bill at Factory School are making > some sort of WIKI anthology or something. Uh -- go to the site. > > I have also used the online component of my class to link to poems online, > essentially making my own anthology. While this doesn't make students > without money for paper and toner very happy, I have also done a scrap paper > collective sort of thing after realizing my students were printing their > papers out onto scrap paper, i.e., there's no reason they can't print the > anthologies out onto scrap paper, and if there's anything we're long on, it > is scrap paper. > > School administrations, even ones who haven't worked out the reader / rights > situation, really love an online component to a class! > > Also, obviously, if you translate a poem, the copyright to the translation > is yours, so I've translated some poems for students to get around that. > Plus, everyone gets to make fun of my foreign languages, and that helps a > lot when almost everyone in class is multilingual. Not that that would > apply to you Mark. > > One of the things I also did -- which I learned from Dan Halpern -- was to > ask students to compile an anthology of ten poems (I usually did "all > published in book form though the poem doesn't have to be") and bring enough > copies for everyone. I had former slammers who found the KGB anthology and > online audio that way (basically, you get students combing the internet > because then they don't have to type or Xerox). Anyway, everyone ends up > with a pretty sizable and very eccentric anthology, and you get a really > good picture of what people are reading, or if they're not, what they're > looking at instead. > > All best, > Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:40:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: I Heart the Canon: Re Bukowski's Battered Babes In-Reply-To: <446DD616.4030101@comcast.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 19-May-06, at 7:28 AM, Kenneth Wolman wrote: > >> I am an inbox full of words, and you are entirely estranged from the >> being on the other end of these words. > I am not trying to be unkind but I could care less about the being > behind your words. So you do admit caring some. How much, would you say? > Geo. Harry Bowering One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 15:37:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: *politics editor needed for boog city* Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable hi all, boog city is looking to fill its politics editor post. we need someone for issue 35 (the july issue) and beyond. the goal is to ge= t someone from within the five boroughs of new york city, so it's easier to run some local political coverage, but going outside of that geography for an editor is doable. the politics editor would be responsible for filling one page each issue an= d have great latitude to its contents. if you have any ideas, send =B9em this way. thanks, david --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 12:47:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <000001c67b73$46dcaa80$6701a8c0@KASIA> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Look, if "students" don't like reading poetry, don't let them take a creative writing course. Or, could iut be that such courses are there to employ creative writing teachers? > > G.H. Bowering, D.Litt. I am signing off on the above. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 16:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: reminder - the ottawa small press book fair Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT span-o (the small press action network - ottawa) presents the ottawa small press book fair spring edition will be happening Saturday, June 17, 2006 in room 203 of the Jack Purcell Community Centre (on Elgin, at 320 Jack Purcell Lane). contact rob at rob@track0.com to sign up for a table, etc. General info: the ottawa small press book fair noon to 5pm (opens at 11am for exhibitors) admission free to the public. due to increased space costs (nearly doubled) table fees have increased from $15 to $20 for exhibitors (payable to rob mclennan, c/o 858 Somerset St W, main floor, Ottawa Ontario K1R 6R7). full tables only. for catalog, exhibitors should send (on paper, not email name of press, address, email, web address, contact person, type of publications, list of publications (with price), if submissions are being looked at, & any other pertinent info, including upcoming ottawa-area events (if any). also, due to the increased demand for table space, exhibitors are asked to confirm far earlier than usual. i.e. -- before, say, the day of the fair. the fair usually contains exhibitors with poetry books, novels, cookbooks, posters, t-shirts, graphic novels, comic books, magazines, scraps of paper, gum-ball machines with poems, 2x4s with text, etc. happens twice a year, started in 1994 by rob mclennan & James Spyker. now run by rob mclennan thru span-o. questions, rob@track0.com or 613 239 0337 more info on span-o at the span-o link of www.track0.com/rob_mclennan span-o: c/o 858 somerset street west, main floor, ottawa ontario canada k1r 6r7 info with map here: http://ottawapoetry.blogspot.com/2006/03/ottawa-small-press-book-fair-spring.html free things can be mailed for fair distributionto the same address. we will not be selling things for folk who cant make it, sorry. also, always looking for volunteers to poster, move tables, that sort of thing. let me know if anyone able to do anything. thanks. for more information, bother rob mclennan at 613 239 0337 or az421@freenet.carleton.ca / or check out the span-o link at www.track0.com/rob_mclennan ================ -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...11th coll'n - name , an errant (Stride, UK) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 14:09:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: When I Think Of My President :: More Output, Only Now It Has A Name Comments: To: netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit when i think of my president her vagina a faceless flood the cat on it's back with it's belly in the air typing always on the parenthesis i have to think about the texture scorpio scorpio scorpio i upend in quenching i murmur to her silence worries she's bouncing this way again lumbering get down on your knees you want the corners to meet to be present in meetings i heart eclipse we're all terrified the bus cracks into view disconnection the ruin of the world they're crabby this morning they're afraid of boredom this lack of prejudice grated to the degree of rupture electronic literature with lies in his eating the infection YOU'LL ROT IN HELL FOR THIS driving down the shoulder atomic and slim good dope i seep smoke warning noise elongates your wealth, spirit-walking the failure of safety you molt the toil off lurking on the mailing list synthesizing images the lurid bedroom pendulous the echo of phonemes and whatever it is that wants to destroy me into unrest these grains of rapture i pause tempests i ate her out the black saint and the sinner lady deaf kids missing ribs away never enough text hate me for my defiance over her eyes rapidly simulating haze flute lures us into and it never seemed at once to i wrecked your life programmed mindless http://www.lewislacook.org/xanaxpop/ *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| sign up now! poetry, code, forums, blogs, newsfeeds... || http://www.corporatepa.com || Everything creative for business -- New York Web Design and Consulting Corporate Performance Artists --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:48:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AMBogle2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CA Conrad on Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Thanks for the terrific post about family & working class & Bukowski. Your insights are, as ever, good ones and welcome (to save in Especially Saved Emails folder). Ann ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:15:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies In-Reply-To: <000001c67b73$46dcaa80$6701a8c0@KASIA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Catherine: The right to translate a poem remains with the owner of the poem in the original language. To publish a translation one needs the permission of the owner (usually the poet), or anyone else to whom he/she may have sold translation rights. If permission is granted then the translator does own the right to the translation. Mark At 02:37 PM 5/19/2006, you wrote: >I know that Antioch makes the readers for instructors and actively encourage >them to make readers. > >I have used Cary Nelson's anthology, because the MAPS supplementary info. >online is so fine; I know that Joel and Bill at Factory School are making >some sort of WIKI anthology or something. Uh -- go to the site. > >I have also used the online component of my class to link to poems online, >essentially making my own anthology. While this doesn't make students >without money for paper and toner very happy, I have also done a scrap paper >collective sort of thing after realizing my students were printing their >papers out onto scrap paper, i.e., there's no reason they can't print the >anthologies out onto scrap paper, and if there's anything we're long on, it >is scrap paper. > >School administrations, even ones who haven't worked out the reader / rights >situation, really love an online component to a class! > >Also, obviously, if you translate a poem, the copyright to the translation >is yours, so I've translated some poems for students to get around that. >Plus, everyone gets to make fun of my foreign languages, and that helps a >lot when almost everyone in class is multilingual. Not that that would >apply to you Mark. > >One of the things I also did -- which I learned from Dan Halpern -- was to >ask students to compile an anthology of ten poems (I usually did "all >published in book form though the poem doesn't have to be") and bring enough >copies for everyone. I had former slammers who found the KGB anthology and >online audio that way (basically, you get students combing the internet >because then they don't have to type or Xerox). Anyway, everyone ends up >with a pretty sizable and very eccentric anthology, and you get a really >good picture of what people are reading, or if they're not, what they're >looking at instead. > >All best, >Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:41:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: New Review of Wake-Up Calls in Galatea Resurrects MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hey, I just got a great review of my book Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems in a new internet journal called Galatea Resurrects edited by Eileen Tabios. Check it out! Here's my review: http://galatearesurrection2.blogspot.com/2006/05/wake-up-calls-66-morning-p= oems-by.html And here's Eileen's announcement of the issue: For those who wish to submit review copies or reviews for Galatea Resurrect= s (A Poetry Engagement), information is here at http://grarchives.blogspot.co= m And now I'm pleased to announce the release of the second issue here: http://galatearesurrection2.blogspot.com Here are its Contents: EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION From Eileen Tabios NEW REVIEWS Chris Murray reviews DISOBEDIENCE by kari edwards Barry Schwabsky reviews MERCURY by Simon Smith Alan Baker reviews UNDER THE MIRACLE BRIDGE FLOWS THE SAND by John Bloomberg-Rissman Thomas Fink reviews HOME ON THE RANGE (THE NIGHT SKY WITH STARS IN MY MOUTH= ) by Tenney Nathanson PR Primeau reviews THE ART OF COUNTRY GRAIN ELEVATORS by Jon Volkmer William Allegrezza reviews THE BEDSIDE GUIDE TO NO TELL MOTEL, Eds. Molly Arden & Reb Livingston Mary Jo Malo reviews "PHENOMENA OF INTERFERENCE" by Steve Dalachinsky & Matthew Shipp Ernesto Priego reviews [WAYS] by Barry Schwabsky & Hong Seung-Lye Thomas Fink reviews CITY ECLOGUE by Ed Roberson William Allegrezza reviews DRIVE: THE FIRST QUARTET by Lorna Dee Cervantes Cati Porter reviews LOCKET by Catherine Daly John Bloomberg-Rissman reviews 2 books by Catherine Daly: LOCKET and DADADA Julie R. Enszer reviews LEARNING THE LANGUAGE by Kate Greenstreet David Harrison Horton presents mini-reviews of four chaps: THE BODY ACHES [POEMS AND HAY(NA)KU] by Ernesto Priego; ON EVERY EMPTY LOT by Edward Stresino; LOST AND CERTAIN OF IT by Bryce Milligan; and GAZOOLY by Olivia Cronk Laurel Johnson reviews from SERIES MAGRITTE by Mark Young Richard Lopez reviews TYPICAL GIRL by Donna Kuhn Julie R. Enszer reviews DESIRE PATH by Myrna Goodman, Maxine Silverman, Meredith Silverman & Jennifer Wallace (with a note on the book's publishing format by Sandy McIntosh) Eileen Tabios reviews MORAINE by Joanna Fuhrman Jon Leon reviews WAITING FOR THE RAPTURE by Kirby Olson Barbara Jane Reyes reviews PRECIPITATES by Debra Kang Dean Laurel Johnson reviews OPERA: POEMS 1981-2002 by Barry Schwabsky Laurel Johnson reviews ONE THOUSAND YEARS by Corinne Robins Eileen Tabios reviews RUSTLE OF BAMBOO LEAVES: SELECTED HAIKU AND OTHER POEMS by Victor P. Gendrano Julie R. Enszer reviews THE UNDERWATER HOSPITAL by Jan Steckel Rochita Loenen-Ruiz reviews PINOY POETICS, Ed. Nick Carbo Tom Beckett reviews THE VICIOUS BUNNY TRANSLATIONS by William Allegrezza Julie R. Enszer reviews POETIC VOICES WITHOUT BORDERS, Ed. Robert L. Giron Barbara Jane Reyes reviews MUSEUM OF ABSENCES by Luis H. Francia Julie R. Enszer reviews WAKE-UP CALLS: 66 MORNING POEMS by Wanda Phipps Yvonne Hortillo reviews OCHRE TONES by Marjorie Evasco William Allegrezza reviews SOMEHOW by Burt Kimmelman Laurel Johnson reviews HEADING HOME by Loreta M. Medina Kyoko Asana reviews SHOT WITH EROS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS by Glenna Lusche= i Rochita Loenen-Ruiz reviews POETA EN SAN FRANCISCO by Barbara Jane Reyes Aileen Ibardaloza reviews THE UNABRIDGED JOURNALS OF SYLVIA PLATH (1950-1962), Ed. Karen Kukil FEATURE ARTICLE Sandy's Mom reviews Sandy McIntosh's THE AFTER-DEATH HISTORY OF MY MOTHER FEATURED POETS Guillermo Juan Parra presents Elizabeth Sch=F6n Andrew Joron presents Brian Lucas FROM OFFLINE TO ONLINE: REPRINTED REVIEWS Timothy Yu reviews ASIAN AMERICAN POETRY: THE NEXT GENERATION, Ed. Victoria Chang Juliana Spahr reviews BORN TO SLOW HORSES by Kamau Brathwaite Joshua Corey reviews DOWN SPOOKY by Shanna Compton Anna Eyre reviews PURR by Mary Ann Samyn Barbara Jane Reyes reviews OCTOBER LIGHT by Jeff Tagami Yvonne Hortillo reviews REAL KARAOKE PEOPLE: POEMS AND PROSE by Ed Bok Lee Eileen Tabios reviews FORBIDDEN ENTRIES by John Yau --=20 Wanda Phipps Check out my website MIND HONEY http://www.mindhoney.com and my latest book of poetry Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=3D1-932360-31-X and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=3Drm_item ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies Comments: cc: David Raphael Israel , Mark Weiss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, small quibble for what worth. I may be wrong, but I believe the right to TRANSLATE (per se, not to publish) belongs to anybody who knows any language and wants to translate anything that they happen to get their mits on. Right to PUBLISH such a translation would indeed require the steps you note: permission of the copyright owner. The question of whether the same issue about publishing rights that one encounters when xeroxing published works, would adhere to an "UNPUBLISHED" translation that a teacher may wish to circulate to her students, -- that question seems to me to be an unclear puzzle, legal precedents (if any) regarding which, could be explored. I could at least hypothesise (and maybe I will) that it may be a different situation. Though I can see an argument that could propose otherwise. We now resume regular silencio. cheers, d.i. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:16 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: a teaching question: absolute frustration with all anthologies Catherine: The right to translate a poem remains with the owner of the poem in the original language. To publish a translation one needs the permission of the owner (usually the poet), or anyone else to whom he/she may have sold translation rights. If permission is granted then the translator does own the right to the translation. Mark =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D david raphael israel washington dc http://kirwani.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 17:35:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Subject: Alienation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Everyone's quick to blame the alien" (Aeschylus c525-456 BC). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Gilbert Sorrentino MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the William Gaddis list, sad news about a great novelist, poet, essayist & editor. From: "Steven Moore" smoore3@worldnet.att.net Date: Thu May 18, 2006 3:11pm(PDT) Subject: Gilbert Sorrentino Those of you who revere Sorrentino's work as much as I do will be saddened to hear he died yesterday, of heart problems brought on by other medical problems that have plagued him over the last year. A brilliant novelist, a superb critic, he will be missed. Those of you who don't know his work might try or His latest work of fiction, was just published a few months ago. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:42:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derekrogerson Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: Amazon launches POD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Print-On-Demand: www.amazon.com/booksurge www.booksurgepublisherservices.com Amazon Press Release: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060519/20060519005128.html?.v=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:45:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Tribal bard takes on Al Qaeda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This via Gary Lawless, Gulf of Maine Books . . . JS Headline: In poetry-loving Yemen, tribal bard takes on Al Qaeda - with his Byline: James Brandon Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor Date: 05/12/2006 (SANAA, YEMEN)As the dusk call to prayer fades, Amin al-Mashreqi =20 glances at the expectant faces surrounding him and begins to read from his slim, handwritten book of verse that is helping to bring a measure of peace to this mountainous Arab country. O, you who kidnap our guests, Your house will refuse you, These violations are against Islam Crammed into a mud-brick shop, his audience, some with their hands resting on their gold-trimmed daggers, listen to his verse denouncing violence and Islamic militancy. When he finishes, there is silence. Then the room erupts in applause. "Other countries fight terrorism with guns and bombs, but in Yemen we use poetry," says Mr. Mashreqi later. "Through my poetry I can convince people of the need for peace who would never be convinced by laws or by force." For years Yemen has been known as a breeding ground for extremism. It is the ancestral homeland of Osama bin Laden and where Al Qaeda bombed the USS Cole in 2000. But today this country is quietly winning a reputation for using unorthodox tactics to take on Islamic militancy. "Yemen has turned to poets because they are able to speak to diverse groups of people who the literati and the elite cannot reach," explains W. Flagg Miller, professor of Anthropology and Religious Studies at the University of Wisconsin who has studied Yemeni poetry for about 20 years. For centuries, Yemen's rulers have relied on poets like Mashreqi to take the government's message into remote areas where regular soldiers and officials feared to tread - and where using force could create more, and angrier, enemies. "There is a long tradition of leaders turning to poets right across the Arab world," explains Dr. Miller. "The prophet Muhammad himself worked with a poet, Hassan ibn Thabit, to spread the word and compose poetry against other poets and tribes who refused to acknowledge Islam." But the long and rich history of Yemeni polemical poetry, the idea of using tribal poets to fight extremism began with a chance meeting nearly two years ago, explains Faris Sanabani, a friend of Yemen's president and editor of a weekly English-language newspaper The Yemen Observer. Leading Yemenis in Sanaa had gathered to chew khat, a narcotic shrub, talk politics, and listen to poetry, Mr. Sanabani recalls. Suddenly, one guest turned to Yemen's most popular tribal poet, Mashreqi, and asked him if he could recite any poetry about terrorism, he says. Mashreqi rose eagerly to the challenge. He stood up, adjusted the broad, curving dagger hanging at his waist and proudly declaimed a handful of verses glorifying suicide bombers. As the applause faded, the man who had asked him to recite the verses, Sanabani himself, took him aside and quietly invited him to visit his office. The next day at the office of the Yemen Observer, Sanabani asked Mashreqi to watch a video made after Al Qaeda's 2002 suicide boat-attack on the French oil tanker SS Limburg off the Yemeni coast. "I showed him footage of the environmental damage caused by the oil spill and of Yemeni fishermen and their families whose livelihood had been destroyed because their fishing grounds were polluted," recalls Sanabani. Chastened by the images of oil-stained beaches, dead fish, and seabirds and sobbing, destitute Yemeni fishermen, Mashreqi left Sanabani's office appearing troubled and lost in thought. When Sanabani next saw him he seemed a man transformed. "Three days later he came back with the most beautiful poetry I have ever seen," says Sanabani, recalling his amazement at the poet's new verses that now condemned violence and promoted peace and tolerance. Sanabani and Mashreqi realized that the historic respect accorded to poets gives them a unique power to win over illiterate tribesmen in remote areas where villagers are traditionally skeptical of all that the government has to say and offer. "The Yemeni people are very sensitive to poetry - especially traditional poetry like this," says Mashreqi. "If poetry contains the right ideas and is used in the right context, then people will respond to it because this is heart of their culture." And although Yemen has used force to tackle Al Qaeda cells and rebel groups, Mashreqi's poems also fit into Yemen's wider strategy of defeating Islamic extremism by appealing to their countrymen's sense of pride, honor, and patriotism. O men of arms, why do you love injustice? You must live in law and order Get up, wake up, or be forever regretful, Don't be infamous among the nations The poems, however, also robustly argue that carrying out terrorist attacks in Yemen will succeed in scaring away much-needed foreign investment and tourism - an argument that few impoverished Yemenis can dispute. "You have to talk to people about the dangers and effects of terrorism," says Ahmed al-Kibsi, professor of political science at Sanaa University. "Education, the media, and the military complement each other." So far Yemen's tactics seem to be helping. Since Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh joined President Bush's War on Terror in late 2001 the country has not experienced any major Islamist attacks - although internal tribal conflicts regularly flare up, as does a long-running Shiite Muslim uprising in the country's far north. But while there have been few successful attacks by Islamic militants in Yemen, the country has still had its troubles with Al Qaeda. In February, at least 23 suspected and convicted Al Qaeda members escaped from a jail in Sanaa. The Yemen Observer reported that, "some of the escapees were the most important and dangerous members of Yemen's Al Qaeda network, and have been blamed for bombing the USS Cole warship in Aden." Also, there may have been other unintended side effects of Yemen's successful campaign to persuade would-be jihadists not to carry out their attacks on Yemeni soil. Anecdotal evidence suggests that many Yemenis have instead traveled to Iraq to fight against the US-led occupation. In the anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan in the 1980s, Yemenis are said to have made up the second largest contingents of Arab volunteers. Others worry that while Yemen has succeeded in suppressing the visible symptoms of Islamic militancy, the root causes of violent radicalism remain and the Islamic militancy in the country is not defeated but is instead merely dormant. Rising poverty, a lack of opportunity, and the arrogance and corruption of an increasingly authoritarian ruling class mean that Yemen's victory over terrorism may be only temporary. "I've become aware of a real anger on the streets," says Robin Madrid, resident director of the National Democratic Institute's program in Yemen, adding that many Yemenis can despairingly point out second and third homes built by government ministers. "Yemen has the potential to make excellent progress on all the fronts that we're concerned about," says Nabeel Khoury, deputy chief of mission at the US Embassy, Sanaa, citing Yemen's need to tackle corruption and international arms smuggling while also extending democratization and protecting press freedom. "At the same time, Yemen faces so many serious challenges that if it doesn't make the right decisions it risks deterioration on all these fronts," says Mr. Khoury, "with potential consequences for domestic as well as regional stability." (c) Copyright 2006 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 20:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Amazon launches POD In-Reply-To: <000f01c67ba6$54694310$81e33c45@jah> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I just got a couple samples from them. Very generic quality, nothing that I would want to use. It took them days to get ahold of me just to return my email. Cold, impersonal. That's my take. I highly recommend bookmobile.com over this. ~mIEKAL On May 19, 2006, at 7:42 PM, derekrogerson wrote: > > Print-On-Demand: > www.amazon.com/booksurge > www.booksurgepublisherservices.com > > Amazon Press Release: > http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060519/20060519005128.html?.v=1 > > There's many a bestseller that could have been prevented by a good teacher. --Flannery O'Connor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 19:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: <38b.3302302.319f3c97@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is kinda tired, this way of thinking, I wonder. And, clearly, I might be wrong. But I find it difficult to surmise that Creeley was a woman-hater -- or that Bukowski was more than, say, a deeply troubled individual. I mean, it's a thing to use a word until it leads itself and one to uselessness. I could easily say, it I wanted to be strict (extremely politcal and agenda-oriented) that most folk I meet are both rascist and homophobic (but only if I chose that term most easily leading me to that uselessness). aj --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 22:39:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Alienation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/19/06 7:20:57 PM, dbenedet@UNM.EDU writes: > "Everyone's quick to blame the alien" (Aeschylus c525-456 BC). > Wow! Is that from The Orestaeia? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 09:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Factory School Subject: NEW BOOK: Lola Ridge, The Ghetto Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed The Ghetto and Other Poems Lola Ridge Southpaw Culture Factory School 2006 110 pages, perfect bound ISBN: 1-60001-991-9 $14.00 / $10.00 (direct order) Available in June 2006 from Small Press Distribution. Generous bulk, educational and classroom discounts available. Please =20 write to info "at" factory school "dot" org for more information or =20 to express interest in this book. http://factoryschool.org/pubs/ridge/ -- Note that there will be a teaching site attached to this page, so =20 check back soon. ABOUT THE GHETTO AND OTHER POEMS: The Ghetto and Other Poems, Lola Ridge=92s major collection of poems, =20= was first published in New York by B.W. Huebsch in 1918. This study =20= of the Lower East Side immigrant subcultures by an Australian-born =20 radical activist is a classic work of poetry and urban studies. Long =20 available for free online, this new Factory School Southpaw Culture =20 edition, developed as a gift to the students of New York, is =20 available once again in book form. Here's an excerpt from what one of her friends at the Modern School =20 of Stelton said of The Ghetto and Other Poems in their January 1919 =20 review: =93Two Lola Ridges are revealed in her book. One is the artist. The =20 other is the radical. Sometimes the two are merged. In =91The Ghetto=92 =20= the primary interest lies in Miss Ridge=92s powers of observation and =20= in the originality of her report. Others of her poems owe their chief =20= interest to her passionate sympathy with the under-dog and with all =20 the movements that make for rebellion and freedom. Lola Ridge makes =20 no plea for popular favor. She knows, as every revolutionary knows, =20 that only a few will understand, and that fewer still will like what =20 she has to offer. Her dedication is =91To the American People=92 in = these =20 lines: Will you feast with me, American People? But what have I that shall seem good to you! On my board are bitter apples And honey served on thorns, And in my flagons fluid iron, Hot from the crucibles. How should such fare entice you! =93A certain bitter quality pervades the entire book. Night hangs over =20= it. Cold winds chill it. Livid faces peer through it. Hoboes, =20 derelicts, outcasts, are described in crisp little phrases that bite =20 deep into the mind. Flaming indignation against cruelty and =20 injustice; the fighting spirit of labor; the multi-colored dreams of =20 idealists appear as a foil to these drab portrayals of the under-=20 world. The deepest note of the book is an unfaltering loyalty to the =20 revolutionary ideal.=94 =97 Leonard Dalton Abbott, =93An Anarchist Poet=94 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 09:48:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathleen Ossip Subject: Summer Writers Colony at The New School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is space available in the three-week intensive Summer Writers Colony at the New School in New York City, which will run from June 5 through June 23. The Summer Writers Colony is an opportunity for college-level students to study writing under the direction of master teachers who are themselves distinguished practitioners and to meet other notable authors, editors, and publishers. This summer's guests will include Frank Bidart, Billy Collins, Rick Moody, and Mary Gaitskill. Poetry workshops will be taught by Kathleen Ossip and Rebecca Wolff. This is a wonderful program for undergraduate students who want to get a taste of a graduate-level program. The three-week program earns them 6 undergraduate credits. For more information: generalstudies.newschool.edu/summer/wc.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 06:48:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Nick Moudry's "High noon " on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Nick Moudry is the rare poet who has found a way to incorporate formal elegance into work with a “conceptual” edge. His long poem “High noon”, released as a chapbook by Indivia in 2005, is at once an elegiac meditation on the fall of America, an indictment of the “cowboy” mentality that has precipitated this fall, a whimsical Surrealistic exploration of “self & non-self”, an exercise in economical melopoeia & a mysterious beacon from an elusive sensibility." Nick Moudry's long-ish poem "High noon" is now up at PFS Post (www.artrecess.blogspot.com). Check it out!! --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Peter Viereck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Peter Viereck, perhaps the most peculiar poet I ever met, died earlier this month. I have never forgotten a reading he did years ago at the Library of Congress. He had sent a handout in prior to the reading, replete with typos and other errors, which he insisted the LOC reproduce exactly as he submitted it. Here's a link to the NYT obit. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/arts/19viereck.html?_r=1&oref=slogin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 09:08:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: anthology sweepstakes: winner announced MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to all of you for your fine anthology suggestions. This year's winner of the anthology Mark Wallace will try next year is (drum roll): Sleeping On The Wing, ed. by Kenneth Koch and Kate Farrell. The winning suggestion was turned in by Ethan Paquin. No prize this year, Ethan, I'm sorry to say. I used to give away cars but then I realized I was just a college professor. But thanks very much anyway! I didn't know about this anthology, but it looks pretty great. We'll see what happens. I only met Kenneth Koch a few times; he was always nattily dressed, formal and polite, perhaps a little distant; he struck me as being from a high culture New York art world from which I felt very far removed. Yet in this anthology and some others he edited, he shows a rare ability to talk about and frame poetry in a way designed to speak to those who know little or nothing about it while neither being condescending or simplifying his sense of what poetry should be. To me, that's pretty impressive. Thanks again, everybody-- Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:41:16 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Hip Hop: 'Beyond Beats and Rhymes' MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://ender.indymedia.org/?q=node/87 or http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/50085.php Hip Hop: 'Beyond Beats and Rhymes' "My film challenges the idea that in order to be a successful rapper in Hip-Hop you have to be hard, tough, violent, sexist, and homophobic," Hurt told AllHipHop.com. "I've shown this film to audiences all over the country, and the first thing people say to me afterward are 'Thank you so much for making this film' or, 'This film needs to be seen everywhere, especially in the hood.'" Mos Def, Fat Joe, Jadakiss and Busta Rhymes Go "Beyond Beats and Rhymes" By Remmie Fresh Date: 5/19/2006 12:00 pm An independent filmmaker has crafted a film that enlists the likes of Mos Def, Fat Joe, Chuck D, Jadakiss, Busta Rhymes, Russell Simmons, and activists such as Michael Eric Dyson, Beverly Guy-Sheftall, and aspiring Congressional candidate Kevin Powell, who offer earnest critique about Hip-Hop lifestyle. Beyond Beats and Rhymes: A Hip-Hop Head Weighs in on Manhood in Rap Music is a 2006 Sundance Film Festival selection?that was produced and directed by Byron Hurt, a gender violence prevention educator. With his film, Hurt is bent on confronting the societal concerns and community interests as it pertains to the influential culture. "My film challenges the idea that in order to be a successful rapper in Hip-Hop you have to be hard, tough, violent, sexist, and homophobic," Hurt told AllHipHop.com. "I've shown this film to audiences all over the country, and the first thing people say to me afterward are 'Thank you so much for making this film' or, 'This film needs to be seen everywhere, especially in the hood.'" Beyond Beats and Rhymes made its debut in New York City last night at the "Sundance at BAM (Brooklyn Academy of Music) Film Series" and will offer more screenings on May 19 and 21. Additionally, the acclaimed film will air nationally on PBS in early 2007. Hurt also said that while his movie has been years in the making, the subject matter and examination are only becoming more relevant. "The recent shooting deaths of Proof, Busta Rhymes' bodyguard Israel Ramirez, T.I.'s personal assistant Philant Johnson, as well as rapper Gravy getting shot in the butt outside of New York's Hot 97 sadly reminds us in the Hip-Hop community [that] manhood and Hip-Hop are too closely associated with senseless violence," Hurt continued.? "Morning shock jock Star's comments directed toward D.J. Envy's wife and daughter, which led to his well-publicized firing at New York City's Power 105.1, clearly reveal that some men's attitudes about girls and women in mainstream Hip-Hop are raging out of control." While the 60-minute film examines Hip-Hop, it doesn't ignore the overall scope of the Black male experience in the United States, as it addresses misogyny, violence, and homophobia. "I know that Byron's current project on Hip-Hop is close to his heart.?It reflects his on-going effort to use film to address essential concerns on the intent and impact of popular youth culture," said filmmaker Orlando Bagwell in a statement. "His film will pose fundamental questions about how Hip-Hop culture represents and expresses basic attitudes in our society about love, violence, and compassion."? The Brooklyn Academy of Music is screening the film. To see a short on the film, visit http://www.BHurt.com. http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=5685 http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=5685 ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 15:17:19 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Breakdown FM: Malik Shabazz's birthday MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://media.odeo.com/3/3/6/Breakdown_FM-MalcolmB-Day06.mp3 or http://ender.indymedia.org/?q=node/88 or http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/50086.php Today we celebrate the life and times of Malcolm X. Included in this 30 minute audio mix are excerpts from his speeches which underscore is outlook and philosophy. We also have keen commentary from people like Sista Souljah and the late Ossie Davis.. Below is some good information about Malcolm X Malcolm Little was born on May 19, 1925, in Omaha, Nebraska, the son of Louise and Earl Little. Louise Little, born of biracial heritage, was a native of Grenada in the British West Indies. Earl Little, a six-foot described as very powerful in appearance, was born Georgia where he worked as a Baptist minister and organizer for Marcus Garvey. A staunch Garveyite, Earl Little believed strongly in ideas of black-nationalism and pan-Africanism. Louise, his second wife, bore six children: Wilfred, Hilda, Philbert, Malcolm, Yvonne, and Reginald. Earl Little also had three children by a first wife: Ella, Earl, and Mary. Because of Little's advocacy for Garvey's movement, his family was terrorized by the Ku Klux Klan and other whites. To avoid any more violent harassment by these elements Little moved his family to Lansing, Michigan. However the racism proved impossible to escape. In Lansing white racists placed a beaten Earl Little on a railway track where he was killed by an oncoming train. They claimed he committed suicide. His father's early death at the hands of whites would leave he and his seven siblings alone with their mother. The stress of the times placed his mother in a mental institution and Malcolm was sent to a foster home. Malcolm attended school until eighth grade living with different families. When a white teacher stopped him from trying to become a lawyer, he dropped out of school entirely. After years of transfers to state institutions and boarding houses, Malcolm moved to live with his sister Ella in Boston. Here, he took a job as a shoeshine boy at the Roseland Ballroom. But such a lowly status did not suit Malcolm and he soon took up the role of a hustler, peddling narcotics and engaging in petty thefts. Malcolm even took to straightening his hair and dating white women. But Roxbury proved to be too small for him, and in 1942 he took a job as a railroad dining car porter, working out of Roxbury and New York. Settling in Harlem, New York, he became more involved in criminal activities: robbing, selling narcotics and even working as a pimp. In Harlem he also got his nickname "Detroit Red", because his hometown Lansing was close to Detroit and his hair was red. After a year in Harlem, Malcolm was officially initiated into hustler society. He returned to Boston in 1945 after falling out with another hustler, and continued a life of crime, forming his own house robbing gang. Arrested for robbery in February 1946, he was convicted and sentenced to prison for seven years. While in prison, Malcolm became a follower of Elijah Muhammad, the then leader of the Lost Found Nation of Islam, with branches in Detroit, Chicago and New York. Malcolm and Elijah Muhammad corresponded by mail while in prison. Malcolm's brothers Philbert and Reginald, visiting him in jail, convinced him to join the NOI and follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad. Following NOI policies, Malcolm soon discarded what he deemed his "slave name", Little, and took the new name "X" to symbolize his lost and unknown name. He improved his knowledge base by reading extensively while in jail as well as studying from the Qu'ran and following strictly the Nation of Islam's dietary laws and moral codes. After his parole in 1952, Malcolm X undertook organizational work for the Nation of Islam under the guidance of Elijah Muhammad. As a minister Malcolm founded mosques in Boston, Philadelphia, Harlem and elsewhere and made the national expansion of the movement possible. Malcolm's ideology was expressed in his fiery orations, newspaper columns as well as radio and television interviews. In addition, he helped to found the NOI newspaper Muhammad Speaks. Malcolm was said to be the only black man who "could stop a race riot - or start one". Due to his influences, NOI membership reached approximately 30,000 by 1963. In January 1958 he married Betty X, who was also a member of the Nation of Islam. Malcolm's rise in power became a threat to competing NOI ministers and especially to the U.S. government who, through the FBI, kept extensive files upon him. Disobeying direct NOI orders to remain silent on the matter of John F. Kennedy's assassination, Malcolm stated it was a case of "chickens coming home to roost". This resulted in his suspension from his NOI post and his eventual split with the organization and his father figure, Elijah Muhammad. Malcolm went on to form his own groups, Muslim Mosque, Inc. and the Organization of Afro-American Unity. Outside of the NOI Malcolm continued his messages of Black Nationalism, independence, and self-defense. His ideas of racial separation were modified but his ideas of white society and racism were by no means drastically altered in his last few years. As one scholar put it, "Malcolm never let white people off the hook". He did however see the possibility of working with other progressive black groups. During this time Malcolm began to advocate a more pragmatic black nationalism, stating that blacks should control the politics within their own community. At the height of his power Malcolm was one of black America's most powerful voices. He traveled widely in Europe and Africa attempting to link the black struggle in America with those abroad. At one point he even advocated and prepared to take the United States before the United Nations for charges of "genocide" against its black citizens. In 1964 Malcolm made a pilgrimage to Mecca, obligatory for orthodox Muslims, where upon he changed his name to El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz. On February 21, 1964 in front of a crowd in the Audubon Ballroom in New York City, Malcolm X was shot to death by three men. Labeled as angry NOI members, the three were convicted with Malcolm's death. However a host of suspicious events and contradictory information presented at the trial have led many to speculate whether more sinister forces, namely the US government, may have been behind his death. The only acquaintance of Malcolm to attempt to prove this point immediately following death, Leon Ameer, died of a sleeping pill overdose before his case could be presented. Thus Malcolm's life, like his death, has remained shrouded in mystery. But even beyond death, El Hajj Malik El-Shabazz inspired generations for decades to come. His views and ideologies on black nationalism and Pan-Africanism would be picked up by many. His fascinating life, teachings, and tragic death would make him both a martyr and a model for the era of Black Power that was soon to come. For More Information See: Malcolm X. The Autobiography Of Malcolm X Ballantine Books, 1992, c.1965. Arnold Adoff, et al. Malcolm X 2000. Malcolm X. February 1965: The Final Speeches Pathfinder, 1992. Malcolm A To X: The Man And His Ideas edited by David Gallen. Pathfinder, 1992 Walter Dean Myers, Leonard Jenkins. Malcolm X: A Fire Burning Brightly The End Of White World Supremacy: Four Speeches by Malcolm X. Arcade Pub., 1989 Michael Eric Dyson. Making Malcolm: The Myth and Meaning of Malcolm X 1996 Walter Dean Myers. Malcolm X: By Any Means Necessary: A Biography Scholastic, 1993. Clayborne Carson. Malcolm X: The FBI File Carroll & Graf, 1991. see also: http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2005/05/41040.php Our own Black Shining Prince: 80th anniversary of Malik Shabazz's birthday Did you ever talk to Brother Malcolm? Did you ever touch him or have him smile at you? Did you ever really listen to him? Did he ever do a mean thing? Was he ever himself associated with violence or any public disturbance? For if you did, you would know him. And if you knew him, you would know why we must honor him: Malcolm was our manhood, our living, black manhood!--ossie davis "We have a common enemy. We have this in common: We have a common oppressor, a common exploiter, and a common discriminator. But once we all realize that we have this common enemy, then we unite on the basis of what we have in common. And what we have foremost in common is that enemy..."-- Malcolm X: "Message To The Grass Roots" from 'message to the grassroots "We all agree tonight, all of the speakers have agreed, that America has a very serious problem. Not only does America have a very serious problem, but our people have a very serious problem. America's problem is us. We're her problem. The only reason she has a problem is she doesn't want us here. And every time you look at yourself, be you black, brown, red, or yellow -- a so-called Negro -- you represent a person who poses such a serious problem for America because you're not wanted." "I would like to make a few comments concerning the difference between the black revolution and the Negro revolution. There's a difference. Are they both the same? And if they're not, what is the difference? What is the difference between a black revolution and a Negro revolution? First, what is a revolution? Sometimes I'm inclined to believe that many of our people are using this word "revolution" loosely, without taking careful consideration [of] what this word actually means, and what its historic characteristics are. When you study the historic nature of revolutions, the motive of a revolution, the objective of a revolution, and the result of a revolution, and the methods used in a revolution, you may change words. You may devise another program. You may change your goal and you may change your mind." "If violence is wrong in America, violence is wrong abroad. If it's wrong to be violent defending black women and black children and black babies and black men, then it's wrong for America to draft us and make us violent abroad in defense of her. And if it is right for America to draft us, and teach us how to be violent in defense of her, then it is right for you and me to do whatever is necessary to defend our own people right here in this country." see also: Shabazz, Hajj Bahiyah Betty (1936-1997) http://www.africanaonline.com/malcom_x_shabazz.htm and http://www.africanaonline.com/malcom_x.htm and Speeches: http://www.brothermalcolm.net/mxwords/whathesaidarchive.html and: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/19/1330226 http://www.cmgww.com/historic/malcolm/home.php By Any Means Necessasry by Ytzhak . audio: MP3 at 9.7 MB http://victoria.indymedia.org/uploads/by_any_means_necessary.mp3 "We have a common enemy. We have this in common: We have a common oppressor, a common exploiter, and a common discriminator. But once we all realize that we have this common enemy, then we unite on the basis of what we have in common. And what we have foremost in common is that enemy..."-- Malcolm X: "Message To The Grass Roots" and see also: "When I told him that my political, social, and economic philosophy was Black nationalism, he asked me very frankly: Well, where did that leave him? Because he was white. He was an African, but he was Algerian, and to all appearances, he was a white man. And he said if I define my objective as the victory of Black nationalism, where does that leave him? Where does that leave revolutionaries in Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Mauritania? So he showed me where I was alienating people who were true revolutionaries dedicated to overturning the system of exploitation that exists on this earth by any means necessary."-- malik el shabazz -- Larry Hales -- "A tribute to Malcolm X" http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2006/02/49062.php and http://www.workers.org/2006/us/malcolm-x-0223/ and The Islamic-Arab world ...provided Malcolm with a pastoral vision of a world morally superior to America, at least insofar as human and racial relationships are concerned. By returning to America to realize his new vision through social action, Malcolm showed that he belonged to the tradition of historical revolutionaries who want to alter reality, not by transcending or breaking away from it, but by reshaping it according to their vision of the "good life." ...Allah in the Koran says that His hand is always with the community rather than with the individual. -- Abdelwahab Elmessiri -- "Islam as a Pastoral in the Life of Malcolm X " http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/47473.php and http://www.worldbulletin.net/yazi_detay.php?id=17&yazar=15 and Malcolm X reminds us all, of the ongoing war at home. He reminds us that voting is but one (and that a minor) part of politics. That it is important to speak truth to power. That is important, indeed vital, to dissent. That it is necessary, sometimes, to step outside of a thing to see it clearly. And that political organizations have different interests from those who vote for them. -- Mumia Abu-Jamal -- "MALCOLM X'S RAP OF DEMOCRATS" http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/43499.php and "Malcolm X was not murdered because he called white people devils (others had done that) or because he had a public falling out with Elijah Muhammad, (although the US government through its COINTELPRO used that situation to promote his "neutralization") Malcolm X was murdered because he had the courage boldness and audacity to attempt to bring the United States of AmeriKKKa before the United Nations' World Court for its crimes of genocide, human rights violations and its racist imperialist foreign policies." -- Junious Ricardo Stanton -- "Malcolm X vs. US Imperialism" http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2005/05/40850.php The Malcolm X who lived, struggled, was imprisoned, followed by the FBI (and other government agencies), whose words were like pepper in the bloody scars of America, became transformed, over time, into someone that he would barely recognize: a 'civil rights' activist; instead of a nationalist, a freedom fighter, a rebel to white nationalism, and, in his own words, one who fought for 'human rights.'... But while the Black bourgeoisie 'couldn't understand' the meaning of Malcolm's loss, Black poor and working class people certainly could. He was one of *us*, they reasoned, and his loss was our loss. -- Mumia Abu-Jamal -- "IN MALCOLMS MEMORY" http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/38800.php To come right down to it, if I take the kind of things in which I believe, then add to that the kind of temperament that I have, plus the one hundred per cent dedication that I have to whatever I believe in- these are ingredients which make it just about impossible for me to die of old age ... I know that societies have often killed the people who have helped to change those societies."--Malik Shabazz -- "The Legacy of Malik Shabazz" http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/28214.php ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 08:47:07 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: Gilbert Sorrentino In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Herb Levy, Thank you for your post. In the current Jacket magazine there is a feature on Gilbert Sorrentino edited by Australian poet Ken Bolton - http://jacketmagazine.com/29/index.shtml Those working at Jacket magazine were aware of his fragile health in recent months and are saddened to hear of his death. Pam Brown Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 18:45:27 -0500 From: Herb Levy Subject: Gilbert Sorrentino From the William Gaddis list, sad news about a great novelist, poet, essayist & editor. From: "Steven Moore" smoore3@worldnet.att.net Date: Thu May 18, 2006 3:11pm(PDT) Subject: Gilbert Sorrentino Those of you who revere Sorrentino's work as much as I do will be saddened to hear he died yesterday, of heart problems brought on by other medical problems that have plagued him over the last year. A brilliant novelist, a superb critic, he will be missed. Those of you who don't know his work might try or His latest work of fiction, was just published a few months ago. Steve _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 20:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: FLUXLIST: Mesostics Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On the Fluxlist, Rod Stasick has been getting everyone up to speed on true mesostics. I found his step by step instructional quite helpful. Some years back I had created a tribute to Dick Higgins after he died, using his "foew&ombwhnw" as a source text. I had read many of Cage's mesostics but never the precise procedure he used to create them, & I see now that my own mesostics are now bastard creations... ~mIEKAL ( mine can be found here: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/mesostics/ mesoframe.html ) Begin forwarded message: From: Rod Stasick Date: May 20, 2006 8:39:30 AM CDT To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Subject: Re: FLUXLIST: Mesostics Reply-To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com Sure, no prob. These thing are sometimes easier to present in person. Remember these are the two kinds: -50 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have the second and -100 percent mesostics: between any two mesoletters, you can't have either. Let's use "The Gettysburg Address" as the source text and LINCOLN as the spine: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion-- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. OK, so we start from the beginning of the text and look for a word that has an "L" (our first mesoletter) but no "I" because the next instance of an "I" will be the next mesoletter. We find the word "aLl" - notice that we can't use "liberty" because an "i" follows in the same word. OK, so we start our mesostic with "aLl" ...now, continuing in the text, we find the next word that has an "I", remembering that our following letter "N" will be in the next line...and so on... As for the "wing words", you can have as many as you want as long as they don't break the rules. Wing words on the right of your spine can't have the FOLLOWING mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase and wing words on the left of the spine cannot have the PREVIOUS mesoletter included anywhere in it's phrase. So, let's do "LINCOLN" just once and only use one word for each line (no wing words - we can add those later), we get (if I can line the letters up - MUCH easier on paper!): aLl cIvil testiNg dediCated lOng battLefield portioN By the way, when you come to the last letter in your spine, you act as if you are going to start your spine word over. In other words, for "LINCOLN" when you come to the last letter - "N" - you are searching for a word that has an "N", that is not followed by a "L" (your first letter in "LINCOLN"). OK, so let's add some "wing words". There are some exceptions in a few of his works, but, generally, John made no rules about length of the wing words. You can have none...or you can have lots...as long as it doesn't break the mesostic rule that we've been speaking of - repeated letters before the mesoletters. Wing words can be added to make a particular point or create your own special slant on what is or can be said. Punctuation can be implied by it's absence. For example: aLl men are created cIvil testiNg whether that nation so dediCated can lOng endure a great battLefield a portioN of that fieLd [and so on...] This is an example of choosing wing words that allows you to convey, let's say, a patriotic meaning, but, in another instance, you may be able to add just enough wing words to give some *other* implied meaning to the text. and so it goes... Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 21:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: OT: NYC-Area/2006 Mets Tix for Sale, Redux Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -------- apologies for this second non-Boog/poetry email about my available Mets tix, but i thought i'd check back in as the games were getting closer. -------- hi all, So I've renewed my Mets Sunday plan for the 2006 season and I thought I'd see if any of you might be interested in buying any tickets (and, as a bonus, get the poetic mojo by sitting in the same place where Jim Behrle, Jordan Davis, and Jean-Paul Pecqueur have sat in years past). I've been sitting in the same section for the past eight, now nine, years--mezzanine, sec. 2 (behind home plate). I have two tickets for each game (prices below are per pair), and they're under the overhang, so u don't get burned by the sun or wet from the rain. If you're interested in buying any tickets you can email me here. (Note that the Mets charge different prices depending upon the opponents and the date, so you'll see, for example, that the Marlins game costs more than the Orioles game.) hope this finds you well (and lets go mets!) as ever, david -------- all dates are Sundays June 18 vs. Baltimore Orioles $54 (Father's Day) (Visor, First 25,000 Fans) (DynaMets Dash) July 9 vs. Florida Marlins $58 (DynaMets Dash) August 6 vs. Philadelphia Phillies $58 (Etch-A-Sketch, First 12,000 Kids) August 20 vs. Colorado Rockies $54 (Growth Chart, First 12,000 Kids) (DynaMets Dash) -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 19:59:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Penton Subject: Happy Anniversary, Howl! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Snarl" (with apologies to Allen Ginsberg) for Dick & Karl I saw the worst minds of my generation, destroying badness, greedy hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the neocon streets at dawn looking for WMD, devilhearted bastards burning from the ancient family connection to the money dynamo in the machinery of darkness, who overmonied, overclothed, overfed and drunk sat up plotting in the soul-destroying darkness of Crawford ranch crawling beneath the depths of evil contemplating nothing, who claimed a lock on Heaven while pushing Hell and seeing Iraqi civilians slaughtered on Baghdad streets unlighted who passed through universities with empty cold eyes hallucinating Texas and Manson-dark murder among the scholars of war, who weren't expelled from the academies for crazy & puerile obscene rituals of the Bones and Skull, who cowered in the Oval Office unaware, burning our money in wanton war and fabricating Terror for us all (This poem was spotted by a friend of mine at an anti-Bush news and chat site, SmirkingChimp.com, by a user named "Stormchild." Reproduced with permission.) -- Jonathan Penton http://www.unlikelystories.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 00:12:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: *Non-NYC Small Presses Wanted ASAP* Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ****** Two dates have opened up in Boog City's "d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press" series, Tues. July 11 and Tues. July 25. Below is additiona= l info on the series. Please email editor@boogcity.com if you're interested i= n us hosting your press. ****** Hi all, For those who don't know me, David Kirschenbaum here. I'm the editor and publisher of Boog City, a New York City-based small press and community newspaper now in its 15th year. For the past three years we've hosted the series "d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press." The series is held in Manhattan's Chelsea section at ACA Galleries (http://acagalleries.com/), which is owned by the son-in-law and daughter o= f the poet Simon Perchik. Once a month i have a different non-NYC small press host and feature at least three of their authors and, if they're able, musician(s) they know, or i find a musical act. The gallery provides wine and other beverages, and cheese and crackers and hummus and chips. We started the series in August 2004. in our first two seasons we've hosted (in order) (all press locations are at the time of the event) --Meritage Press (San Francisco/St. Helena, Calif.) --The Owl Press (Woodacre, Calif.) --Tougher Disguises (Oakland, Calif.) --Cy Press (Cincinnati) --above/ground press (Ottawa, Canada) --Chax Press (Tucson, Arizona), 20th anniversary party --The Tangent (Walla Walla, WA) --Carve (Ithaca, NY) --Braincase Press (Northampton, Mass.) --Combo (Providence, R.I.) --Talonbooks (Vancouver, Canada) --Tripwire (San Francisco) --Conundrum (Chicago) --Ambit/Furniture Press (Baltimore) --Kelsey Street Press (Berkeley, Calif.), 30th anniversary party --The Poker (Cambridge, Mass.) --Ahadada Books (Burlington, Canada) --Firewheel Editions/Sentence, a magazine (Danbury, Conn.) --Habenicht Press (San Francisco) --The Canary (Kemah, Texas) --Duration Press (San Rafael, Calif.) --a+bend press (Davis, Calif.). Season three kicked off this past August, and it has featured (in order) --Ducky (Philadelphia) --Katalanch=E9 Press (Cambridge, Mass.) --O Books (Oakland, Calif.) --3rd Bed (Lincoln, RI) --Antennae (Chicago/Berlin) --Kenning Editions (Berkeley, Calif.) --Skanky Possum (Austin, Texas) --One Less Magazine (Williamsburg, Mass.) --Aerial Magazine/Edge Books (Washington, D.C.) --Burning Deck Press (Providence, R.I.), forthcoming i'm hoping two of you might want to do something for your presses. It's a nice space, and we fit 100 people, including a 9-piece jazz flash orchestra= , in it for Chax's event, with plenty of room to spare. If you're game to take part, please email editor@boogcity.com. hope this find's you all well. as ever, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 23:02:08 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Temple of the Mental State MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Sight seen/Words can lose meaning/ Living/ the diety of being/ Human/ Seeing is believing Dreaming/ I accepted the mission/ Cyphers/ Fixed to bring up the Nation/ Madness Thoughts to make you tremble/ Temple/ In the mental state of breddren Lessons/ Set to end the confusion/ Blessing/ A tru heaven in the 7/ Creating/ The living G-d of questions/ Ghetto/ Camps of mindless concentration/ Devils Only give my people trouble/ Listen/ We’ll bring up the treble/ With you/ We all come to collect you/ Lift you/ Don’t fret we’ll never leave you/ Strong/ Is the meaning of this cypher/ Perametre / Within the circumference of my brutha Stayed tru/ A bass bring me some water I’ve come to your cultural rescue bio: Author of the novels Wigger, Ratz Are Nice, and More at 7:30: Notes to New Palestine, Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite (aka Lord Patch) likes to dub his prose like Lee "Scratch" Perry and King Tubby chopped music & voice. Braithwaite has performed at Lollapalooza, The National Black Arts Festival, Prose Acts: Alternative Fiction Literary Conference with Dennis Cooper, Kevin Killian, Robert Glück, and Dodie Bellamy, and at the Kootney School of Writing. His fiction has appeared in Fourteen Hills, Role Call: A Generational Anthology of Social & Political Black Literature & Art, Bluesprints: Anthology of Black British Columbian Literature and Orature, Redzone: Victoria's Street People Zine, Fernwood's Sleeping Dragon, Velvet Mafia, Of the Flesh, Nocturnes, Biting the Error and the web journal "sidebrow". His words and voice may be heard on the Hurricane Angel electronic and spoken word project "luckily i was half cat," as well as his own solo works. He lives in the Hood of New Palestine, Fernwood, British Columbia. http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/how_fast_does_light_travel___for_george_scott_3rd_b2.mp3 1: en fins (clichy-sous bois)bmixdistortion dub http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_.mp3 http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/11/7632.php ___ Stay Strong \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) \ "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte \ "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and\ amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 23:42:45 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: mi amigo: when they eyes get lynchy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT mi amigo, akhi I hope yuh feelin me wreckin it up in yuh tardis set trip a go set this screw driver to sonic afrikan mathematic plotted in ebonics we crush a poet and liar to infinity bio: Author of the novels Wigger, Ratz Are Nice, and More at 7:30: Notes to New Palestine, Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite (aka Lord Patch) likes to dub his prose like Lee "Scratch" Perry and King Tubby chopped music & voice. Braithwaite has performed at Lollapalooza, The National Black Arts Festival, Prose Acts: Alternative Fiction Literary Conference with Dennis Cooper, Kevin Killian, Robert Glück, and Dodie Bellamy, and at the Kootney School of Writing. His fiction has appeared in Fourteen Hills, Role Call: A Generational Anthology of Social & Political Black Literature & Art, Bluesprints: Anthology of Black British Columbian Literature and Orature, Redzone: Victoria's Street People Zine, Fernwood's Sleeping Dragon, Velvet Mafia, Of the Flesh, Nocturnes, Biting the Error and the web journal "sidebrow". His words and voice may be heard on the Hurricane Angel electronic and spoken word project "luckily i was half cat," as well as his own solo works. He lives in the Hood of New Palestine, Fernwood, British Columbia. http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/how_fast_does_light_travel___for_george_scott_3rd_b2.mp3 1: en fins (clichy-sous bois)bmixdistortion dub http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_.mp3 http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/11/7632.php ___ Stay Strong \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) \ "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte \ "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and\ amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 01:02:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michele canty Subject: Re: where can I get information In-Reply-To: <000b01c67b71$3c2d23f0$6701a8c0@KASIA> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "The National Uniform Law" is not real. Just like a lot of news these days. . http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0605206372115739.htm Iran denies dress code alleged in Canadian daily New York, May 20, IRNA Iran-Canada-Daily Iran has denied a report in a Canadian daily which says Tehran may force non-Muslims to adopt a particular dress code in public. In a letter to the Canadian daily `National Post', the press attache of the Iranian embassy in Ottawa, Hormoz Qahramani, rejected the article. The daily, in an article published in its Friday edition, said that "a new dress-code reportedly passed in Iran this past week mandates the government to make sure that religious minorities -- Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians -- will have to adopt distinct colour schemes to make them identifiable in public." The article further states that "the Iranian government has envisioned that all Iranians wear standard Islamic garments designed to remove ethnic and class distinctions." According to the article, under the proposed dress code law, which is still awaiting final approval by Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, "Jews will have to wear a yellow band on their exterior in public, (Zoroastrians blue), while Christians will be required to don red ones." Qahramani's letter stressed that such accusations against the Islamic Republic of Iran are part of a vast pre-planned move against Iran by certain countries or individuals. In related developments, the representative of the Jewish minority in the Islamic Consultative Assembly (Majlis), Maurice Motamed, also dismissed the article as a "complete fabrication." Interviewed by a western news agency, he said the alleged dress requirement was a lie and people who concocted it intended to achieve certain political ends. The publication of such reports outside Iran is an insult to the religious minorities living in Iran, Motamed added. On 5/19/06 11:22 AM, "C Daly" wrote: > about the "National Uniform Law" - perhaps the text of the proposal and > clauses already ratified -- in English translation? > > > > It was proposed a few days ago, and up before Iranian Parliament this week. > > > > Thanks, > > Catherine Daly > > cadaly@comcast.net > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 09:50:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: Re: where can I get information In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable but what is the text of the bill? "Motamed said that the bill on dress code does not concern religious minorities.=20 IRNA parliamentary correspondent who has read the entire bill on the = dress code said that there is no mention of religious minorities or = non-Muslims in the bill. " http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0605212568181807.htm All best, Catherine =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 19:36:47 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edmund Hardy Subject: "Intercapillary Space": new poems, reviews, essays In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed collective blogzine http://intercapillaryspace.blogspot.com/ GERALDINE MONK CELEBRATION (Part I) New poems by Geraldine Monk "A Nocturnall": Donne, Monk, Josipovici En ma Fin gît mon Commencement - Three Geraldine Monk pamphlets reviewed Geraldine Monk Hyper-Link Chrestomathy POEMS Five poems by Peter Manson A poem by Rupert Loydell ESSAY Giles Goodland: Caleb Whitefoord: The Cross Reading, a Modernist Poetry Avant la Garde REVIEWS Barbara Guest, The Red Gaze (reviewed by Melissa Flores-Bórquez) Carol Watts, brass, running (reviewed by Edmund Hardy) Tua Forsström, I Studied Once at a Wonderful Faculty (reviewed by Michael Peverett) CAPSULE ESSAYS Aristotle's Styles: On Colour Lorine Niedecker, "There's a better shine" Muriel Rukeyser, "Islands" PLUS Douglas Oliver Blog Symposium / Shearsman 67 & 68 & books to look forward to / "The Internal of a Bee": Lyric Archive / Hyper-Link Chrestomathies Updated ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 19:09:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lou Rowan Subject: 6/22 reading at Spoonbill and Sugartown MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spoonbill and Sugartown and Golden Handcuffs Review are sponsoring a = rare appearance by Joseph McElroy, along with Tim Keane and Lou Rowan. = 7:30 PM. 218 Bedford Avenue (Williamsburg), Brooklyn, NY 11211. = 718-387-7322. = (Sugar@spoonbillbooks.com). Advance = copies of the summer Golden Handcuffs with new work by McElroy and many = others. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:31:56 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: blog notes from oz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Poeticists, Recent posts on my Sydney-based blog 'The Deletions' http://www.thedeletions.blogspot.com New Book from Brisbane New Reading Series in Adelaide Three poets and a CD Two Book Launches in Sydney in May Ken Bolton in Sydney May Day Listen up Attention Span An illustrated lament Sub heading of the day Two booklets All the best, Pam Brown _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 360°: Your own space to share what you want with who you want! http://www.yahoo7.com.au/360 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 02:00:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Mexico Works to Bar Non-Natives From Jobs In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe a few of you have already seen this one. --- By MARK STEVENSON Associated Press Writer MEXICO CITY If Arnold Schwarzenegger had migrated to Mexico instead of the United States, he couldn't be a governor. If Argentina native Sergio Villanueva, firefighter hero of the Sept. 11 attacks, had moved to Tecate instead of New York, he wouldn't have been allowed on the force. Even as Mexico presses the United States to grant unrestricted citizenship to millions of undocumented Mexican migrants, its officials at times calling U.S. policies "xenophobic," Mexico places daunting limitations on anyone born outside its territory. In the United States, only two posts _ the presidency and vice presidency _ are reserved for the native born. In Mexico, non-natives are banned from those and thousands of other jobs, even if they are legal, naturalized citizens. Foreign-born Mexicans can't hold seats in either house of the congress. They're also banned from state legislatures, the Supreme Court and all governorships. Many states ban foreign-born Mexicans from spots on town councils. And Mexico's Constitution reserves almost all federal posts, and any position in the military and merchant marine, for "native-born Mexicans." Recently the Mexican government has gone even further. Since at least it has encouraged cities to ban non-natives from such local jobs as firefighters, police and judges. Mexico's Interior Department _ which recommended the bans as part of "model" city statutes it distributed to local officials _ could cite no basis for extending the bans to local posts. After being contacted by The Associated Press about the issue, officials changed the wording in two statutes to delete the "native- born" requirements, although they said the modifications had nothing to do with AP's inquiries. "These statutes have been under review for some time, and they have, or are about to be, changed," said an Interior Department official, who was not authorized to be quoted by name. But because the "model" statues are fill-in-the-blanks guides for framing local legislation, many cities across Mexico have already enacted such bans. They have done so even though foreigners constitute a tiny percentage of the population and pose little threat to Mexico's job market. The foreign-born make up just 0.5 percent of Mexico's 105 million people, compared with about 13 percent in the United States, which has a total population of 299 million. Mexico grants citizenship to about 3,000 people a year, compared to the U.S. average of almost a half million. "There is a need for a little more openness, both at the policy level and in business affairs," said David Kim, president of the Mexico- Korea Association, which represents the estimated 20,000 South Koreans in Mexico, many of them naturalized citizens. "The immigration laws are very difficult ... and they put obstacles in the way that make it more difficult to compete," Kim said, although most foreigners don't come to Mexico seeking government posts. J. Michael Waller, of the Center for Security Policy in Washington, was more blunt. "If American policy-makers are looking for legal models on which to base new laws restricting immigration and expelling foreign lawbreakers, they have a handy guide: the Mexican constitution," he said in a recent article on immigration. Some Mexicans agree their country needs to change. "This country needs to be more open," said Francisco Hidalgo, a 50- year-old video producer. "In part to modernize itself, and in part because of the contribution these (foreign-born) people could make." Others express a more common view, a distrust of foreigners that academics say is rooted in Mexico's history of foreign invasions and the loss of territory in the 1847-48 Mexican-American War. Speaking of the hundreds of thousands of Central Americans who enter Mexico each year, chauffeur Arnulfo Hernandez, 57, said: "The ones who want to reach the United States, we should send them up there. But the ones who want to stay here, it's usually for bad reasons, because they want to steal or do drugs." Some say progress is being made. Mexico's president no longer is required to be at least a second-generation native-born. That law was changed in 1999 to clear the way for candidates who have one foreign- born parent, like President Vicente Fox, whose mother is from Spain. But the pace of change is slow. The state of Baja California still requires candidates for the state legislature to prove both their parents were native born. --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 05:17:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: justin sirois Subject: Buck Downs chapdisc now available (narrow house MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Buck Downs chapdisc Pontiac Fever now available www.narrowhouserecordings.com Narrow House chapdiscs are limited edition audio projects of poets from the around the country. Theis handmade project features customized gold painted covers in white DVD cases with a CDR signed by the writer in editions of 100. One inch color pin included. . . . . . . . http://www.narrowhouserecordings.com/ a record label primarily interested in contemporary writing, poetics and the political __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 05:26:58 -0700 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , Wom Po , Lucifer Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS The simplest things last – Simplicities in Olson’s Projective Verse Mei-mei’s house, a 102-year-old poet and other miscellany More on lists including Playboy’s 25 sexiest novels (a note from Pam Rosenthal) Fetch Rae Armantrout’s new chapbook The uneven history of New Directions and its commitment to Pound-Williams tradition How to stock poetry in a bookstore (a note from Andrew Schelling) Cognitive blends in Howl hydrogen jukebox Ginsberg, Cezanne, and a literary device in Howl The School of Quietude – a note The best work of American fiction as viewed by the New York Times The closing of Cody’s a memoir of Berkeley bookstores The poetics of Stephanie Young’s Bay Poetics The role of the typewriter on margins and spacing in contemporary poetry Bay Poetics – a new anthology with 110 poets The latest champ from Chester County Small presses account for half of all book sales The Paris Review Interviews online - watching a medium grow up http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:37:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20060520022539.9589.qmail@web54408.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Charles "Hank" Bukowski was indeed deeply troubled. For example, (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001977/bio) he flirted with fascism in his youth - "Charles Bukowski, the American poet, short-story writer, and novelist, was born Heinrich Karl Bukowski, Jr. in Andernach, Germany on August 1920. He was the son of Henry Bukowski, a US soldier who was part of the post-World War I occupation force, and Katharina Fett, a German woman. ... At City College, Bukwoski briefly flirted with a pathetic, ad hoc, pro-fascist student group. Proud of being a German, he did not feel inclined to go to war against Hitler's Germany. When America entered World War II, Bukowski resisted entreaties from his friends and father to join the service. He began living the life of a wandering hobo and a bum, frequently living on skid row as he worked his way through a meaningless series of jobs in L.A. and other cities across the U.S. He wound up in New York City during the war after his short story, 'Aftermath of a Lengthy Rejection Slip,' was accepted by "Story" magazine. He disliked New York and soon decamped for more hospitable climes. He was content to go to public libraries and read -- he discovered the L.A. writer John Fante, whom heavily influenced his own work and whom he would champion when he became famous -- and loaf." The article goes onto say that although B admired Celine did not descend to Celine's ant-semitism. How did he avoid conscription? I'm reading Roth's "the Plot Against America" which is an interesting conjunction at this point for me. And as for B's relationships with women... "Around the time he quit the Post Office, Bukowski took up with the poet and sculptress Linda King, who was 20 years his junior. They began a tumultuous relationship juiced in equal parts with sadism and masochism that extended into the mid-1970s. In his 1978 autobiographical novel "Women," Bukowski writes about how his alter ego, "Henry Chinaski," had not had a woman in four years. Now, as Bukowski became a literary phenomenon in the small/alternative press world, he became a literary if not literal Don Juan, bedding down his legions of women fans who flocked to his apartment on DeLongre Avenue in the sleaziest part of Hollywood. (It was at this time that Bukowski was friends with a dirty book store manager who was the father of Leonardo DiCaprio.)" Linda King is writing a book of that period. It'll be interesting reading. If you look close enough, everyone has feet of clay. Bukowski's defenders and proselytisers have a larger burden than usual. However, Bukowski was a child of troubled times, of that there can be no doubt. To forgive is the hardest part. Roger On 20/05/06, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > This is kinda tired, this way of thinking, I wonder. And, clearly, I migh= t be wrong. But I find it difficult to surmise that Creeley was a woman-hat= er -- or that Bukowski was more than, say, a deeply troubled individual. I = mean, it's a thing to use a word until it leads itself and one to uselessne= ss. I could easily say, it I wanted to be strict (extremely politcal and ag= enda-oriented) that most folk I meet are both rascist and homophobic (but o= nly if I chose that term most easily leading me to that uselessness). > > aj > > > --- > Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT = be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art = that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound > > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rat= es starting at 1=A2/min. > --=20 http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ "Fishheads, fishheads, rolypoly fishheads fishheads, fishheads, eat them up yum" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 06:13:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: some very sad news to share about Bukowski In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We need a lot of support, us being quite frail (regardless of what might be held up to the light). I think I'm reminded of Blanche, from Williams' Streetcar Named Desire, and, of course, O'Hara's poem, "Spleen"-- As an aside, and I never really 'loved' reading B, thought I have appreciated some of his work, me being more into listening to his raspy voice and staccato-style storytell of sorts, but he is read in China--among other places. AJ --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: eratio postmodern poetry issue seven, spring 2006 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed ` ` eratio postmodern poetry issue seven, spring 2006 ` http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com ` ` Nubia Hassan, Jenna Cardinale, Julie Doxsee, Jane Ormerod, Karyna=20 McGlynn, Matina L. Stamatakis, Michelle La Vigne ` Sung-san Hong, Kenji Siratori, Jack Alun, Devin Wayne Davis, Jeffrey Side, Paul Kavanagh, Kane X.=20 Faucher, Paul Hellier, Scott Wilkerson, Hank Lazer, Eileen Tabios ` Jake Berry, Paul Hardacre, Jack Foley, Jon Cone, Alan May, Jay Twomey, Justin=20 Vicari, Donald Illich ` Nancy Graham, Jessica L. White, Marthe Reed, Anny=20 Ballardini ` Michelle Greenblatt, Sheila E. Murphy, John M. Bennett, Scott=20 Glassman, Adam Fieled, Brian Zimmer, Thomas Lowe Taylor, Pete Lee, Thomas Fink, Thomas Hibbard ` William James Austin, Bill Lavender, Karl Kempton, PR=20= Primeau, Jo Cook, Richard Kostelanetz, Jeff Crouch, Nick Piombino, M=E1rton=20 Kopp=E1ny, Kaz Maslanka and Jukka-Pekka Kervinen ` edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino ` eratio appears for spring and fall and is always reading ` eratio postmodern poetry issue seven, spring 2006 ` http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com ` "The noise of them that sing I do hear." ` ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:35:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: NYC: Samuel Menashe reading, May 24 Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wednesday, May 24, Samuel Menashe will read from his poems A Lunch Reception follows The Reading is at 12 pm in the Pauline Chapel of Marble Collegiate Church 3 West 29th Street RSVP Amy 212-725-7850 ext 124 Admission and Lunch are zero, zilch, nada. Salt & Pepper Here and there White hairs appear On my chest- Age seasons me Gives me zest- I am a sage In the making Sprinkled, shaking ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:04:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: new at e-x-c-h-a-n-g-e-v-a-l-u-e-s... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my interview with Anny Ballardini is up. Go to: http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:26:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Minky Starshine Subject: CFP--Writing by Degrees 2006: The 9th Annual National Graduate Creative Writing Conference Comments: cc: wbdegree@binghamton.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writing by Degrees 2006: The 9th Annual National Graduate Creative Writing Conference Binghamton, New York-Binghamton University, SUNY Keynote Speakers, Steve Almond (fiction), Timothy Liu (poetry), Suzanne Paola Antonetta (creative non-fiction) Conference Date: October 19-21, 2006 Submmission Deadline: August 1, 2006 Writing by Degrees is seeking creative and academic submissions demonstrating or contemplating the craft of writing. All applicants must be currently enrolled as graduate students in order to be eligible. Submissions may fall into one of the below categories. Creative Submissions Poetry submissions should be 10 pages. Creative prose, fiction, or creative non-fiction, should be of a length to be read within a 20-minute period (roughly 10-12 pages); please submit entire piece to be read. There are no restrictions on subject matter or form-send us your highest quality work. Translations are also welcome.. Note: Authors of creative submissions accepted by Writing by Degrees will be invited to submit the works to a special edition of the journal Harpur Palate; although acceptance for publication is not guaranteed. Academic Submissions Please submit a 1- or 2-page abstract. Possible Academic Submission Topics: * The craft and/or practice of writing * Creative Writing pedagogy * Creative Writing and composition * Experimentation in poetry or fiction Contact Hardcopy submissions may be sent to: Writing by Degrees Directors: Deborah Poe, Cannon Roberts, Holly Wendt Department of English Binghamton University PO Box 6000 Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 Hardcopy submissions will only be returned upon request, and if accompanied by a self-addressed envelope with sufficient postage. Writing by Degrees no longer acccepts email submissions. Please address questions to wbdegree@binghamton.edu. You can also review our Web site: http://writingbydegrees.binghamton.edu/home.html (further updates on the Web site can be expected throughout the summer). Note: Upon acceptance of your submission, there will be a $50 conference fee. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:34:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Blog:G Sein, A Halsey, J Roubaud & Mother's take Comments: To: "Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics"@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, UK POETRY Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Over the past several months I have been using my blog mostly as a quiet incubator space for a series called "Tenderly" where the work is to 'translate' or 'improv' off Gertrude Stein's "Tender Buttons", the Green Integer edition, which now looks like an over-squeezed, worn out sponge. On occasion I also write about reading Stein, Alan Halsey and Jacque Roubaud to my 90-year old mother poet manque, who offers her own interpretations and improvisations on the works that I read her, or 'creative writing' exercises I make up in response to the texts. She does "Cities" in the most recent one in response to Roubaud's "Streets of Paris." (As I previously suggested the Roubaud Selected with the Waldrop family translations forthcoming in July from Dalkey Archive ought to be a big hit - the advance galleys from the publisher are certainly so with me). Enjoy, Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:26:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Tom Beckett's interview with Anny Ballardini MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com/ -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Seeking Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed contacts for Rodrigo Toscano Laura Elrick please backchannel; thanks! TLB ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I want to paint the glories of normal people. Su-Keun Park ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:25:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Joanne Kyger at SPT this Fri 5/26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present JOANNE KYGER, reading & in celebration of her acceptance of our Lifetime Achievement Award plus Book of the Year ceremony Friday, May 26, 2006 at 7:30 p.m. Every year the board of directors of Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center votes a Lifetime Achievement Award to a living writer of distinction. Past honorees have included Barbara Guest, Jackson Mac Low, and Carl Rakosi. The latest recipient of SPT’s Lifetime Achievement Award is Joanne Kyger. Joanne Kyger made an auspicious debut as the golden girl of the Spicer-Duncan circle of the late 1950s in San Francisco. Within a month of her arrival everyone wanted a piece of Kyger, and she became associated with many of the fluid, mercurial poetry scenes around the “New American Poetry.” Like her best writing, she was everywhere at once, deep inside the Beat movement, all over Japan and India, up and down the San Francisco Renaissance, steeped in Charles Olson’s polis-based soul curriculum, our ambassador to the New York scenes of Ted Berrigan and Anne Waldman, the mainstay of Bolinas, and a seer in the Buddhist poetics of the Jack Kerouac School at Naropa University in Boulder. Those are only the locations; deeper underneath, the substance of her many lives created, over forty-five years, a new poetic freedom. Based on frank and sensual observation, an innovating line, a sometimes acerbic wit, and a devotion to the ‘golden root’ of compassion, Kyger’s poetry continues to win her the admiration of numerous generations. Joining us for Kyger’s reading will be her friend, the poet Michael Rothenberg, who edited As Ever, Kyger’s selected poems, for Penguin Books in 2002. Rothenberg, author of Unhurried Vision, has recently relocated to the Russian River area and will be on hand to introduce her. We will also show Kyger’s 1968 video, “Descartes.” Additionally, we will have an awards ceremony featuring some remarks from the recipients of our 2005 Book of the Year Awards, including Juliana Spahr and David Larsen in person, Eileen Tabios for John Yau, Rodney Koeneke for Drew Gardner, and Magdalena Zurawski for Aaron Kunin. Note: Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to SPT members, and CCA faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Map & directions: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/fac_dir.html Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:24:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Reading at San Francisco's Cafe Royale, Thurs MAY 25 - reminder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-A4TlqEqxln9CHz2m/4Zr" --=-A4TlqEqxln9CHz2m/4Zr Content-Type: text/plain the San Francisco State Poetry Center presents a reading to celebrate the anthology Every Goodbye Ain't Gone with Aldon NIELSEN, Lauri RAMEY, William J. HARRIS and giovanni SINGLETON Thursday May 25 2006 6:00 pm @ Café Royale 800 Post (at Leavenworth), San Francisco, free We've been waiting for this one: Every Goodbye Ain't Gone is a groundbreaking new anthology of innovative poetry by African American writers (University of Alabama, 2006), presenting the work of many of the poets who carried on the adventurous legacies of Melvin B. Tolson, Gwendolyn Brooks, and Robert Hayden. Poetry by such key poets as Melvin Tolson, Amiri Baraka, Jayne Cortez, Clarence Major, Bob Kaufman, and June Jordan appears alongside the work of less familiar poets such as Russell Atkins, Jodi Braxton, David Henderson, Stephen Jonas, and Elouise Loftin, poets active from the 1960s and 1970s Black Arts Movement and beyond. Reading from the anthology: Aldon Lynn Nielsen, coeditor, is a poet (Stepping Razor, Vext, Mixage) and Kelly Professor of American Literature at Penn State, and the author of outstanding critical works Black Chant and Integral Music: Languages of African American Innovation. Lauri Ramey, also anthology coeditor, is Associate Professor of English at California State U., Los Angeles, and author of Black British Writing. William J. Harris co-authored "Somebody blew off Baraka" with Aldon Nielsen (African American Review: June 2003), edited The LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka Reader and curated a recent exhibition from the life and works of Amiri Baraka at Brown University. He is a poet and Professor of English at The University of Kansas. giovanni singleton, poet and teacher, edits nocturnes: a literary (re)view, out of Oakland. + + + --=-A4TlqEqxln9CHz2m/4Zr-- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:48:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jay Dougherty Subject: Poetry Circle call for submissions and editors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetry Circle continues in its quest to become a premier site for serious contemporary and experimental poetry online. There are few sites like it today, so we encourage you to join and participate. Poetry Circle is seeking both submissions and editorial help. Although anyone may submit to the site, roving editors select pieces from works submitted for inclusion on the Editors' Picks board and for the Selected Work of the week. To read about the editorial concept, see http://www.poetrycircle.com/index.php/topic,14.0.html Cheers. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:56:35 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: no dubyu dubyu dubyu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm re-posting this - with the correct url without the www : Dear Poeticists, Recent posts on my Sydney-based blog 'The Deletions' http://thedeletions.blogspot.com New Book from Brisbane New Reading Series in Adelaide Three poets and a CD Two Book Launches in Sydney in May Ken Bolton in Sydney May Day Listen up Attention Span An illustrated lament Sub heading of the day Two booklets All the best, Pam Brown _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 Socceroos Central: Latest news, schedule, blogs and videos. http://au.sports.yahoo.com/football/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 01:32:48 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "mldeed1@juno.com" Subject: Re: Joanne Kyger at SPT this Fri 5/26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Joanne Kyger just did a marvelous reading at Buffalo's Creeley celebrati= on this past weekend (May 20-21). If you get the chance to hear her, yo= u may enjoy her work as much as I did. Martha Deed -- Small Press Traffic wrote: Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present JOANNE KYGER, reading & in celebration of her acceptance of our Lifetime Achievement Award plus Book of the Year ceremony Friday, May 26, 2006 at 7:30 p.m. Every year the board of directors of Small Press Traffic Literary Arts C= enter votes a Lifetime Achievement Award to a living writer of distinction. Pa= st honorees have included Barbara Guest, Jackson Mac Low, and Carl Rakosi. = The latest recipient of SPT=92s Lifetime Achievement Award is Joanne Kyger. Joanne Kyger made an auspicious debut as the golden girl of the Spicer-D= uncan circle of the late 1950s in San Francisco. Within a month of her arrival= everyone wanted a piece of Kyger, and she became associated with many of= the fluid, mercurial poetry scenes around the =93New American Poetry.=94 Lik= e her best writing, she was everywhere at once, deep inside the Beat movement, all = over Japan and India, up and down the San Francisco Renaissance, steeped in C= harles Olson=92s polis-based soul curriculum, our ambassador to the New York sc= enes of Ted Berrigan and Anne Waldman, the mainstay of Bolinas, and a seer in th= e Buddhist poetics of the Jack Kerouac School at Naropa University in Boul= der. Those are only the locations; deeper underneath, the substance of her ma= ny lives created, over forty-five years, a new poetic freedom. Based on fra= nk and sensual observation, an innovating line, a sometimes acerbic wit, and a devotion to the =91golden root=92 of compassion, Kyger=92s poetry contin= ues to win her the admiration of numerous generations. Joining us for Kyger=92s reading will be her friend, the poet Michael Rothenberg, who edited As Ever, Kyger=92s selected poems, for Penguin Bo= oks in 2002. Rothenberg, author of Unhurried Vision, has recently relocated to = the Russian River area and will be on hand to introduce her. We will also sh= ow Kyger=92s 1968 video, =93Descartes.=94 = Additionally, we will have an awards ceremony featuring some remarks fro= m the recipients of our 2005 Book of the Year Awards, including Juliana Spahr = and David Larsen in person, Eileen Tabios for John Yau, Rodney Koeneke for D= rew Gardner, and Magdalena Zurawski for Aaron Kunin. Note: Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to S= PT members, and CCA faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Map & directions: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/fac_dir.html Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:17:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: JUST PUBLISHED! Seniors, by George Stanley MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable GEORGE STANLEY IS THE WINNER OF THE 2006 SHELLEY AWARD FROM THE POETRY SOCIETY OF AMERICA. SENIORS by George Stanley. 16 pp ISBN 0-9735337-8-1 @ $8.00.=20 (There's a hidden and perhaps secret fierceness of spirit in the quiet sardonic wit of these poems, their dismay at the comic helplessness of = aging and its conditioned delights, the narrowing horizons of the ordinary, = and muted wonder at its flavour. "Words have to come out of the world" puns = one of Stanley's flat down-to-earth illusory rejections of the illusory. = There's a toughness in the complexity of such ironic comedies, and delicacy in = their recurrent thought on words, on poems, on where they come from. There's = not one casual utterance in the everydayness of Seniors, but there are = currents of strong feeling. One reads, and rereads, and then one reads again. = Peter Quartermain)=20 Prices in U.S.$. We will send invoice with order. ORDER FROM Peter Quartermain (Quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca) OR Nomados = P.O. Box 4031, 349 West Georgia, Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3Z4 OR nomadosnomados@yahoo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver BC Canada V6A 1Y7 604 255 8274 (voice) 604 255 8204 fax quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:32:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Reading at San Francisco's Cafe Royale, Thurs MAY 25 - reminder In-Reply-To: <200605230024.UAA07531@webmail1.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Big Fat YAY. It's a wonderful anthology. stay tuned for my review in Xcp 17. At 8:24 PM -0400 5/22/06, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >the San Francisco State Poetry Center presents > > > >a reading to celebrate the anthology >Every Goodbye Ain't Gone with Aldon NIELSEN, > >Lauri RAMEY, William J. HARRIS and giovanni >SINGLETON > >Thursday May 25 2006 >6:00 pm @ Caf=E9 Royale > >800 Post (at Leavenworth), San Francisco, free > >We've been waiting for this one: > >Every Goodbye Ain't Gone is a groundbreaking new >anthology of innovative poetry by African >American writers (University of Alabama, 2006), >presenting the work of many of the poets who >carried on the adventurous legacies of Melvin B. >Tolson, Gwendolyn Brooks, and Robert Hayden. >Poetry by such key poets as Melvin Tolson, Amiri >Baraka, Jayne Cortez, Clarence Major, Bob >Kaufman, and June Jordan appears alongside the >work of less familiar poets such as Russell >Atkins, Jodi Braxton, David Henderson, Stephen >Jonas, and Elouise Loftin, poets active from the >1960s and 1970s Black Arts Movement and beyond. > >Reading from the anthology: Aldon Lynn Nielsen, >coeditor, is a poet (Stepping Razor, Vext, >Mixage) and Kelly Professor of American >Literature at Penn State, and the author of >outstanding critical works Black Chant and >Integral Music: Languages of African American >Innovation. Lauri Ramey, also anthology >coeditor, is Associate Professor of English at >California State U., Los Angeles, and author of >Black British Writing. William J. Harris >co-authored "Somebody blew off Baraka" with Aldon >Nielsen (African American Review: June 2003), >edited The LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka Reader and >curated a recent exhibition from the life and >works of Amiri Baraka at Brown University. He is >a poet and Professor of English at The University of Kansas. >giovanni singleton, poet and teacher, edits >nocturnes: a literary (re)view, out of Oakland. > >+ + + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:24:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 5-22-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE BIG READ FIREMAN'S BARBECUE Closing Party for the Big Read. Saturday, May 27 3-5 p.m., Buffalo Fire Historical Society, 1850 William St., in Buffalo, N.= Y DISCUSSION GROUPS THIS WEEK Kenmore Branch Library 160 Delaware Road, Kenmore Tuesday, May 23rd 7 pm For a complete schedule, go to our website and click on the =22Big Read=22 = logo. SPOKEN ARTS RADIO, with host Sarah Campbell A joint production of Just Buffalo Literary Center and WBFO 88.7 FM Airs Sundays during Weekend Edition at 8:35 a.m. and Mondays during Morning Edition at 6:35 A.M. & 8:35 a.m. Upcoming Features: The Big Read, Part 3, May 28 & 29 All shows are now available for download on our website, including features= on John Ashbery, Paul Auster, Lyn Hejinian, Ray Bradbury and more... http://www.justbuffalo.org/events/sar.shtml JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery. Group meets 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. Call fo= r details. UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:03:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Eliot/Fieled vs Ginsberg/Sherlock on Stoning the Devil.... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New on Stoning the Devil (www.adamfieled.blogspot.com): --"an edifying chat with Frank Sherlock" (w/ Frank's comments) this has to do with me retracting my assertion that Ginsberg was a "sell out", & also misconstruing Frank's arguments, which he then clarifies. -- "a response to Frank" here, I drag out good 'ol Tom Eliot just for the hell of it & rattle many poetic closet-skeletons. Frank's stern comments make an interesting counterpoint. as always, much more... --------------------------------- Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:43:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: FW: $10,000 for lesbian fiction writers and poets -- please forward widely! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Attached please find the application and guidelines for this year. It = would be great if you could please forward them by email to your contacts, set = out a stack of applications in a writer's class, or whatever else you can = think of! =20 ** We are especially hoping to reach folks in the South & the Midwest. = ** Is there anything I can do to make this easy for you? If you have any questions, you can reach me at 212-529-8021ext.22, or lramirez @astraeafoundation.org. Folks = can contact me directly if they have any questions about the application (general contact info listed below). Thanks so much! Sincerely, Lorraine Ramirez Program Assistant ********************************************************* =20 $10,000 Cash Prize for Lesbian Writers! =20 LESBIAN WRITERS FUND Of the ASTRAEA LESBIAN FOUNDATION FOR JUSTICE =20 DEADLINE: Received in Astraea's offices by Friday June 30, 2006 =20 ASTRAEA'S LESBIAN WRITERS FUND supports the work of emerging lesbian writers, and acknowledges the contributions of established lesbian = writers to our movement and culture. First place awardees in each category = receive $10,000, and there are additional cash prizes for runners-up. This = year's deadline for application is Friday, June 30, 2006. For additional information on Astraea or to find listings of previous Lesbian Writers = Fund grantees and panelists, please check our website at www.astraeafoundation.org. =20 For a copy of guidelines and application for the above grants, please contact us at: 212-529-8021, ext. 22 or via email at: grants@astraeafoundation.org. Guidelines and application forms are also available online at: http://www.astraeafoundation.org/PHP/Grants/DeadlinesAllGrants.php4 =20 =20 Astraea Lesbian Foundation for Justice works for social, racial and = economic justice in the U.S. and internationally. Our grantmaking and = philanthropic advocacy programs help lesbians and allied communities challenge = oppression and claim their human rights. =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:54:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its = contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've Googled = the term countless times and have inched toward an understanding, but I = want more than dates and names of post modern players. =20 So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what = exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all = too would be of benefit. =20 Any suggestions would be appreciated. =20 thanks, Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:13:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Ruiz Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex! Consider first, what we speak of when we say a thing is 'modern' in its various modern-isms and modern-ities---then the 'post' of the term becomes more meaningful...or for some, meaningless, though I suspect such a view as the latter is rather inert. NRIII Nicholas Ruiz III ABD/GTA Interdisciplinary Program in the Humanities --Florida State University-- Editor, Kritikos http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~nr03/ -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of alexander saliby Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:54 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: post modern? Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern players. So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all too would be of benefit. Any suggestions would be appreciated. thanks, Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:18:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern > players. > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all > too would be of benefit. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > thanks, > Alex > One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it comes to seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over a hundred years ago. > Geo. Harry Bowering One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:24:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <7B6336CA-EA88-11DA-ABB3-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Not to speak of the use of the term by architects to mean post-international style, with the use of ornament referring to older styles. Essentially the term is meaningless in literature, and almost eaqually meaningless in the other arts--it's simply used to designate too many things, most of which were already present in the first 30 or so years of the 20th century. Which is probably why you're having a hard time pinning it down. Mark At 02:18 PM 5/23/2006, you wrote: >On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > >>Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its >>contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've >>Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an >>understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern players. >> >>So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about >>what exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of >>it all too would be of benefit. >> >>Any suggestions would be appreciated. >> >>thanks, >>Alex > >One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really >sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when >it comes to >seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over >a hundred years ago. >Geo. Harry Bowering >One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:30:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: (alexander saliby's message of "Mon, 22 May 2006 09:54:28 -0700") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The wikipedia entry on postmodernism presents a rich but grok-able overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-modernism Regards, Dan alexander saliby wrote: > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern players. > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all too would be of benefit. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > thanks, > Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brink, Dean" Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i=92m not sure what you want to wring out of this word = =93postmodernism=94 but don=92t be so postmodern about it: call the = bluff.=20 it=92s the wreckage of the U.S.S. Kitsch rebuilt with the = non-functioning parts of Modernism (deserving of its Cap for the bold = last stand against engulfment by the industrial, alienated, rational =96 = all of which postmodernism shrugs off as normal wear and tear in = shopping life).=20 one helpful distinction that Ernst Behler taught was that between = postmodern theory and phenomena dubbable as =93pomo=94 (say the pomohomo = [f.n., good example here--the degree to which homophobia stirs up = objections to this word would indicate the limits of postmodernism and = the presence of reactionary modernism, which would mediate working = contradictions in the zeitgeist via binary oppositions and overt = positionings-----in contrast to postmodern indifference [being =93over = that,=94 =93over god,=94 =93over poetry=94 and ready to yawn one=92s way = into a quite life with a hideously polite wife (but who doesn=92t miss = Derrida=92s love of hearing himself speak?)], who might be defined = negatively as being unconcerned with the construction of identity as = gay=97a non-gay gay gay, if that helps).=20 postmodern theory has earned its s p a c e (as much L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E = poetry will one day) as an artifact of philologically obsessed = Greco-Eurocentric philosophers with their heads in the sands of history, = history, with all its limitations, which pulled its sphinx-like = propheteering out of the books and into the drunken world; and as an = afterthought of New Critical obsessing with rhetoric. =20 hope this clarifies. Dean Brink -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? =20 On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its=20 > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've=20 > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an=20 > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern=20 > players. > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what = > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all=20 > too would be of benefit. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > thanks, > Alex > One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it=20 comes to seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over a hundred years ago. > Geo. Harry Bowering One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:15:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, I have a hunch the Wikipedia might be a good place to look. cheers, d.i.=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? =20 On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its=20 > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've=20 > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an=20 > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern=20 > players. > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all=20 > too would be of benefit. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > thanks, > Alex ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:46:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: Reminder: tomorrow: Cain and Robertson at Test Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v623) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed STEPHEN CAIN and LISA ROBERTSON a launch for Lisa Robertson's THE MEN: A LYRIC BOOK (BookThug) 24 May 2006, 6:00 p.m. Mercer Union, a Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto pwyc ($5 recommended), all of which goes to the readers more info (including a map, bios, poets' notes, and recordings of previous installments): www.testreading.org Hope to see you there. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:25:14 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sam Ladkin Subject: New from Barque: Peter Manson's _For the Good of Liars_ Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > Subject: New from Barque: Peter Manson's _For the Good of Liars_ > > Barque is aeroemphysematic with pride to announce the publication of: > > _For the Good of Liars_, poems by Peter Manson > 66pp., perfect bound, 8 pounds / 13 dollars plus postage > > This book is the first large collection of Peter's poems. My guess > is that anyone on this list who has ever heard Peter read, or seen > any of his previous publications, or read the poems he has posted > here over the years, or who suffers from a pathological addiction > to shopping, or who wants to know how the most finely built and > musically ablaze language imaginable can eat into the hypothalamic- > pituitary-adrenal axis like love into a heart, or who cares about > the deep affective complexity of materialist thinking, or who needs > poetry in order to need life, will want IMMEDIATELY to TRAMPOLINE > on the PayPal icon at: > > http://www.barquepress.com > > This truly is a remarkable book by one of the most challenging, > compelling and moving poets now writing in English. Front cover > includes a painting by Mandy Ure. Rear cover excludes a fatuous > blurb. Whatever else you intend to do to it, begin by owning it. > > K ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:23:07 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to me it doesn't. What clarifies is getting the word out of my head and my vocabulary. And I have to say I've been quite successful(I have had occasion to use post-structuralism when some people want to use postmodernism as a synonym; and I sometimes have to footnote the usage that lead to its appearance in the title of Paul Hoover's indispensable anthology, but that's about it.) A life without postmodernism has much to recommend it. Wystan=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brink, Dean Sent: Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:14 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? i'm not sure what you want to wring out of this word "postmodernism" but don't be so postmodern about it: call the bluff.=20 it's the wreckage of the U.S.S. Kitsch rebuilt with the non-functioning parts of Modernism (deserving of its Cap for the bold last stand against engulfment by the industrial, alienated, rational - all of which postmodernism shrugs off as normal wear and tear in shopping life).=20 one helpful distinction that Ernst Behler taught was that between postmodern theory and phenomena dubbable as "pomo" (say the pomohomo [f.n., good example here--the degree to which homophobia stirs up objections to this word would indicate the limits of postmodernism and the presence of reactionary modernism, which would mediate working contradictions in the zeitgeist via binary oppositions and overt positionings-----in contrast to postmodern indifference [being "over that," "over god," "over poetry" and ready to yawn one's way into a quite life with a hideously polite wife (but who doesn't miss Derrida's love of hearing himself speak?)], who might be defined negatively as being unconcerned with the construction of identity as gay-a non-gay gay gay, if that helps).=20 postmodern theory has earned its s p a c e (as much L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E poetry will one day) as an artifact of philologically obsessed Greco-Eurocentric philosophers with their heads in the sands of history, history, with all its limitations, which pulled its sphinx-like propheteering out of the books and into the drunken world; and as an afterthought of New Critical obsessing with rhetoric. =20 hope this clarifies. Dean Brink -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? =20 On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've=20 > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an=20 > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern=20 > players. > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all=20 > too would be of benefit. > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > thanks, > Alex > One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it=20 comes to seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over a hundred years ago. > Geo. Harry Bowering One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 22:19:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: post modern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: all the responses: 1. from Wikipedia: =20 "This article or section is in need of attention from an = expert on the subject. Please help recruit one, or improve this page = yourself if you can. Please see discussion = page for details." I read the text before I posted the Q; I'm inclined to think the writer = or writers are as confused as I am on the topic, far too many adjectives = and adverbs, way far too few nouns and verbs in crisp declarative = construction. I came away saying, "Huh?" =20 2. from the Catholic reference, George, I failed to find one; though in = truth I did try. Might you be able to be a bit more specific in your = directions. And having used the term over 100 years ago as you say, = only adds to, not clarifies my confusion. Is tomorrow a new Post Modern = from yesterday? Was there ever not a post modern? =20 3. "Essentially the term is meaningless in literature, and almost=20 equally meaningless in the other arts--it's simply used to designate=20 too many things, most of which were already present in the first 30=20 or so years of the 20th century. Which is probably why you're having=20 a hard time pinning it down." Mark, this may be the most understandable point I've read on the = subject...the label means so much it is meaningless. I need to spend = more time on that thought. =20 4.Dean, Wystan: let me know if you two ever come to any accord on the = point...sounds to me as though I have two experts with ever divergent = views. Perhaps the two of you could collaborate to solve the = Wikipedia's plea for assistance. And what could be more meaningful for = an encyclopediac approach to knowledge than a point and counter-point? =20 5. To all the others....you have pointed me in several directions, for = that I thank you. I will read more. If it matters to any and all, I = appreciate your thoughts. This comment comforted me intellectually regarding the Q: what is Post = Modern?: "Consider first, what we speak of when we say a thing is 'modern' in its various modern-isms and modern-ities---then the 'post' of the term = becomes more meaningful...or for some, meaningless, though I suspect such a view = as the latter is rather inert. NRIII" Thank you Nicholas. =20 And thank you too to all the others...I do know a little more than I did = yesterday, and I've some roads to take for tomorrow.=20 Alex=20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 10:35:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve potter Subject: Re: Postmodernism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hey Alex, The Condition of Postmodernity by David Harvey would be a great place to start. Read it a decade or so ago. Has a big picture outlook and considers the larger socio-economic conditions behind the changes in architecture, art, literature and how technological advancements change our overall perceptions of time and space. Steve Potter > >Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:54:28 -0700 >From: alexander saliby >Subject: post modern? > >Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its = >contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've Googled = >the term countless times and have inched toward an understanding, but I = >want more than dates and names of post modern players. =20 > >So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what = >exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all = >too would be of benefit. =20 > >Any suggestions would be appreciated. =20 > >thanks, >Alex > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:13:02 -0400 >From: Nicholas Ruiz >Subject: Re: post modern? > >Hi Alex! > >Consider first, what we speak of when we say a thing is 'modern' in its >various modern-isms and modern-ities---then the 'post' of the term becomes >more meaningful...or for some, meaningless, though I suspect such a view as >the latter is rather inert. > >NRIII > > > >Nicholas Ruiz III >ABD/GTA >Interdisciplinary Program in the Humanities >--Florida State University-- >Editor, Kritikos >http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~nr03/ >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of alexander saliby >Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 12:54 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: post modern? > >Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its >contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've Googled >the >term countless times and have inched toward an understanding, but I want >more than dates and names of post modern players. > >So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what >exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all too >would be of benefit. > >Any suggestions would be appreciated. > >thanks, >Alex > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:18:06 -0700 >From: George Bowering >Subject: Re: post modern? > >On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > > > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its > > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've > > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an > > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern > > players. > > > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what > > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all > > too would be of benefit. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > Alex > > > >One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really >sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it >comes to >seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over >a hundred years ago. > > >Geo. Harry Bowering >One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:24:27 -0400 >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: Re: post modern? > >Not to speak of the use of the term by architects to mean >post-international style, with the use of ornament referring to older >styles. > >Essentially the term is meaningless in literature, and almost >eaqually meaningless in the other arts--it's simply used to designate >too many things, most of which were already present in the first 30 >or so years of the 20th century. Which is probably why you're having >a hard time pinning it down. > >Mark > >At 02:18 PM 5/23/2006, you wrote: > >On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > > > >>Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its > >>contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've > >>Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an > >>understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern >players. > >> > >>So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about > >>what exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of > >>it all too would be of benefit. > >> > >>Any suggestions would be appreciated. > >> > >>thanks, > >>Alex > > > >One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really > >sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when > >it comes to > >seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over > >a hundred years ago. > >Geo. Harry Bowering > >One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:30:42 -0400 >From: Dan Waber >Subject: Re: post modern? > >The wikipedia entry on postmodernism presents a rich but grok-able >overview: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-modernism > >Regards, >Dan > >alexander saliby wrote: > > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its >contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've Googled >the term countless times and have inched toward an understanding, but I >want more than dates and names of post modern players. > > > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what >exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all too >would be of benefit. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > Alex > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:14:13 -0700 >From: "Brink, Dean" >Subject: Re: post modern? > >i=92m not sure what you want to wring out of this word = >=93postmodernism=94 but don=92t be so postmodern about it: call the = >bluff.=20 >it=92s the wreckage of the U.S.S. Kitsch rebuilt with the = >non-functioning parts of Modernism (deserving of its Cap for the bold = >last stand against engulfment by the industrial, alienated, rational =96 = >all of which postmodernism shrugs off as normal wear and tear in = >shopping life).=20 > >one helpful distinction that Ernst Behler taught was that between = >postmodern theory and phenomena dubbable as =93pomo=94 (say the pomohomo = >[f.n., good example here--the degree to which homophobia stirs up = >objections to this word would indicate the limits of postmodernism and = >the presence of reactionary modernism, which would mediate working = >contradictions in the zeitgeist via binary oppositions and overt = >positionings-----in contrast to postmodern indifference [being =93over = >that,=94 =93over god,=94 =93over poetry=94 and ready to yawn one=92s way = >into a quite life with a hideously polite wife (but who doesn=92t miss = >Derrida=92s love of hearing himself speak?)], who might be defined = >negatively as being unconcerned with the construction of identity as = >gay=97a non-gay gay gay, if that helps).=20 > >postmodern theory has earned its s p a c e (as much L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E = >poetry will one day) as an artifact of philologically obsessed = >Greco-Eurocentric philosophers with their heads in the sands of history, = >history, with all its limitations, which pulled its sphinx-like = >propheteering out of the books and into the drunken world; and as an = >afterthought of New Critical obsessing with rhetoric. =20 > >hope this clarifies. > >Dean Brink > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering >Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: post modern? >=20 >On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > > > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its=20 > > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've=20 > > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an=20 > > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern=20 > > players. > > > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what = > > > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all=20 > > too would be of benefit. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > Alex > > > >One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really >sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it=20 >comes to >seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over >a hundred years ago. > > >Geo. Harry Bowering >One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:15:55 -0400 >From: David Israel >Subject: Re: post modern? > >Alex, > >I have a hunch the Wikipedia might be a good place to look. > >cheers, >d.i.=20 > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering >Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: post modern? >=20 >On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > > > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its=20 > > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've=20 > > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an=20 > > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern=20 > > players. > > > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what > > > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all=20 > > too would be of benefit. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > Alex > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 18:46:26 -0400 >From: Mark Truscott >Subject: Reminder: tomorrow: Cain and Robertson at Test > >STEPHEN CAIN and LISA ROBERTSON >a launch for Lisa Robertson's THE MEN: A LYRIC BOOK (BookThug) > >24 May 2006, 6:00 p.m. >Mercer Union, a Centre for Contemporary Art >37 Lisgar Street, Toronto >pwyc ($5 recommended), all of which goes to the readers > >more info (including a map, bios, poets' notes, and recordings of >previous installments): www.testreading.org > >Hope to see you there. > >Mark > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 00:25:14 +0100 >From: Sam Ladkin >Subject: New from Barque: Peter Manson's _For the Good of Liars_ > > > Subject: New from Barque: Peter Manson's _For the Good of Liars_ > > > > Barque is aeroemphysematic with pride to announce the publication of: > > > > _For the Good of Liars_, poems by Peter Manson > > 66pp., perfect bound, 8 pounds / 13 dollars plus postage > > > > This book is the first large collection of Peter's poems. My guess > > is that anyone on this list who has ever heard Peter read, or seen > > any of his previous publications, or read the poems he has posted > > here over the years, or who suffers from a pathological addiction > > to shopping, or who wants to know how the most finely built and > > musically ablaze language imaginable can eat into the hypothalamic- > > pituitary-adrenal axis like love into a heart, or who cares about > > the deep affective complexity of materialist thinking, or who needs > > poetry in order to need life, will want IMMEDIATELY to TRAMPOLINE > > on the PayPal icon at: > > > > http://www.barquepress.com > > > > This truly is a remarkable book by one of the most challenging, > > compelling and moving poets now writing in English. Front cover > > includes a painting by Mandy Ure. Rear cover excludes a fatuous > > blurb. Whatever else you intend to do to it, begin by owning it. > > > > K > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 15:23:07 +1200 >From: Wystan Curnow >Subject: Re: post modern? > > Not to me it doesn't. What clarifies is getting the word out of my head >and my vocabulary. And I have to say I've been quite successful(I have >had occasion to use post-structuralism when some people want to use >postmodernism as a synonym; and I sometimes have to footnote the usage >that lead to its appearance in the title of Paul Hoover's indispensable >anthology, but that's about it.) A life without postmodernism has much >to recommend it. > Wystan=20 > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >On Behalf Of Brink, Dean >Sent: Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:14 a.m. >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: post modern? > > >i'm not sure what you want to wring out of this word "postmodernism" but >don't be so postmodern about it: call the bluff.=20 >it's the wreckage of the U.S.S. Kitsch rebuilt with the non-functioning >parts of Modernism (deserving of its Cap for the bold last stand against >engulfment by the industrial, alienated, rational - all of which >postmodernism shrugs off as normal wear and tear in shopping life).=20 > >one helpful distinction that Ernst Behler taught was that between >postmodern theory and phenomena dubbable as "pomo" (say the pomohomo >[f.n., good example here--the degree to which homophobia stirs up >objections to this word would indicate the limits of postmodernism and >the presence of reactionary modernism, which would mediate working >contradictions in the zeitgeist via binary oppositions and overt >positionings-----in contrast to postmodern indifference [being "over >that," "over god," "over poetry" and ready to yawn one's way into a >quite life with a hideously polite wife (but who doesn't miss Derrida's >love of hearing himself speak?)], who might be defined negatively as >being unconcerned with the construction of identity as gay-a non-gay gay >gay, if that helps).=20 > >postmodern theory has earned its s p a c e (as much L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E >poetry will one day) as an artifact of philologically obsessed >Greco-Eurocentric philosophers with their heads in the sands of history, >history, with all its limitations, which pulled its sphinx-like >propheteering out of the books and into the drunken world; and as an >afterthought of New Critical obsessing with rhetoric. =20 > >hope this clarifies. > >Dean Brink > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering >Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: post modern? >=20 >On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > > > Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its > > contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've=20 > > Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an=20 > > understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern=20 > > players. > > > > So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what > > exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all=20 > > too would be of benefit. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > > thanks, > > Alex > > > >One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really >sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it=20 >comes to >seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over >a hundred years ago. > > >Geo. Harry Bowering >One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey > >------------------------------ > >End of POETICS Digest - 22 May 2006 to 23 May 2006 (#2006-144) >************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:10:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: The Autr=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= now online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm putting Nada Gordon and my talk, "The Autré," originally given at SPT in 2005, on my blog over the course of the next couple of weekends. A gloss on explorations and exploitations of "outrageous otherness" worldwide, and an attempt to situate contemporary English-language poetics within a global framework, it includes lots of photos, sound clips, and samples of poetry, comic and visual art. It's in five parts; the intro and first part are up now at: http://garysullivan.blogspot.com Subjects include: Screamin Jay Hawkins, Natacha Atlas, Perez Prado, Beau Brummel, Rodney Koeneke, Sakura Maku, Tom Hart, Kathy Acker, Suihiro Mauro, Hijikata Tatsumi, David Larsen, Najwa Karam, Asalah, Michel-Rolph Trouillot, Dambudzo Marechera, Los Bros Hernandez, Manmohan Desai, Alexei Kruchenykh, Gu Cheng, Yinka Shonibare, Stacy Doris, V. Shantaram, Adeena Karasick, Chitra Ganesh, bill bissett, Madison Clell, Ernst Herbeck, Puffy, and many others. Comments, reactions, etc., are welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 06:04:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: I Wish We Had An Open Source President Comments: To: netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wish we had an Open Source president. I'd edit him in Eclipse. I'd set a breakpoint... http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org/ *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| sign up now! poetry, code, forums, blogs, newsfeeds... || http://www.corporatepa.com || Everything creative for business -- New York Web Design and Consulting Corporate Performance Artists --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 07:33:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: New Book by Lewis LaCook: Xanax Pop, Volume 1 Comments: To: netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.lewislacook.org/books/xanaxpop_vol1.pdf At long last, I'm happy to say that the first year of my poetry blog Xanax Pop is available as a pdf download. This collects the blog's first incarnation, when I wrote the poems on my Palm IIIxe handheld computer and entries were uploaded during synchronization. Xanax Pop's current incarnation can be viewed at http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org/ *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| sign up now! poetry, code, forums, blogs, newsfeeds... || http://www.corporatepa.com || Everything creative for business -- New York Web Design and Consulting Corporate Performance Artists --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:19:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: Re: Source of "Iranian dress code" hoax Comments: To: Discussion of Women's Poetry List In-Reply-To: <200605241145_MC3-1-C06F-79E8@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is part of my call for the actual text of the law; I cannot believe it contains no gender-specific information -----Original Message----- Taheri's original article, entitled "A Colour Code for Iran's 'Infidels'", dealt primarily with new legislation that it said was designed to ensure that Iranians wear "standard Islamic garments" that removed ethnic and class distinctions and that eliminated "the influence of the infidel" - presumably meaning the West - "on the way Iranians, especially, the young dress". In fact, however, the legislation contained "absolutely no mention of religious minorities", according to Hadi Ghaemi, the chief Iran researcher for Human Rights Watch (HRW), who said it included "only generalities with regard to promoting a national dress code and fashion industry that should be subsidised and supported by the government". The article - and especially its attribution to "human rights groups" - was particularly unfortunate, he told IPS, because "it plays into the hands of the Iranian government that wants to discredit human rights issues that are raised at the international level". The actual legislation was indeed "a troubling development", but not for the reasons cited by the Post, he added, because "its main target is most probably Iranian women". ------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 13:38:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "On Beauty in the Face and the Hands of the Reader" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This beautiful piece by Philomene Long, the author's name itself = beautiful, on reading a book: http://emptymirrorbooks.com/thirdpage/onbeauty.html In The 3rd Page, Hammond Guthrie, Editor: http://emptymirrorbooks.com/thirdpage/theFUTURE.html -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 14:14:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <640F0190D197074CA59E6F82064E80C35D8B8A@artsmail.ARTSNET.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Our store is your co-reality" is my misreading of a spam 'subject' line that just came up on the monitor. I think it's pretty good description of where Postmodernism art as a critique takes its root. Andy Warhol's subjects - whether manufactured media stars or consumer product, as the with the soup cans - are artworks that occupy, straddle, embrace, enhance, critique and distance themselves from the ever increasing intensification and presence of the expectations of the yoke implicit to this "co-reality". (subtext = you are what you buy). Utopia does not manifest as modernist 'sublime', but as a successful, strategically and aesthetically accomplished defense against getting entirely consumed by capitalist predators who want to own your buying power - including your eye balls - lock, stock and barrel. In the post-modernist approach, you get utopia for about a minute at a time - then its back to work! Like owning your own "Factory." When not killing spam, enjoying some real nice sun here! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. > Not to me it doesn't. What clarifies is getting the word out of my head > and my vocabulary. And I have to say I've been quite successful(I have > had occasion to use post-structuralism when some people want to use > postmodernism as a synonym; and I sometimes have to footnote the usage > that lead to its appearance in the title of Paul Hoover's indispensable > anthology, but that's about it.) A life without postmodernism has much > to recommend it. > Wystan > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Brink, Dean > Sent: Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:14 a.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: post modern? > > > i'm not sure what you want to wring out of this word "postmodernism" but > don't be so postmodern about it: call the bluff. > it's the wreckage of the U.S.S. Kitsch rebuilt with the non-functioning > parts of Modernism (deserving of its Cap for the bold last stand against > engulfment by the industrial, alienated, rational - all of which > postmodernism shrugs off as normal wear and tear in shopping life). > > one helpful distinction that Ernst Behler taught was that between > postmodern theory and phenomena dubbable as "pomo" (say the pomohomo > [f.n., good example here--the degree to which homophobia stirs up > objections to this word would indicate the limits of postmodernism and > the presence of reactionary modernism, which would mediate working > contradictions in the zeitgeist via binary oppositions and overt > positionings-----in contrast to postmodern indifference [being "over > that," "over god," "over poetry" and ready to yawn one's way into a > quite life with a hideously polite wife (but who doesn't miss Derrida's > love of hearing himself speak?)], who might be defined negatively as > being unconcerned with the construction of identity as gay-a non-gay gay > gay, if that helps). > > postmodern theory has earned its s p a c e (as much L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E > poetry will one day) as an artifact of philologically obsessed > Greco-Eurocentric philosophers with their heads in the sands of history, > history, with all its limitations, which pulled its sphinx-like > propheteering out of the books and into the drunken world; and as an > afterthought of New Critical obsessing with rhetoric. > > hope this clarifies. > > Dean Brink > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering > Sent: Tue 5/23/2006 11:18 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: post modern? > > On 22-May-06, at 9:54 AM, alexander saliby wrote: > >> Searching for a text that can define Post Modernism in all its >> contexts...poetry, art, design, music, etc. and by the way, I've >> Googled the term countless times and have inched toward an >> understanding, but I want more than dates and names of post modern >> players. >> >> So far, from my reading, I'm left feeling a bit in the dark about what >> exactly it is that should be labeled, Post Modern. The Why of it all >> too would be of benefit. >> >> Any suggestions would be appreciated. >> >> thanks, >> Alex >> > > One thought: maybe Googling, and the Internet and all that is not really > sufficient in the way of research. Books will help, especially when it > comes to > seeing the early use of the word Post-Modern by the Catholic Church over > a hundred years ago. >> > Geo. Harry Bowering > One of the oldest poets in West Point Grey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:15:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: post modern? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Post-modernism. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:32:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <20060524211556.A4AE614875@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On May 24, 2006, at 5:15 PM, furniture_ press wrote: > Post-modernism. Post Toasties-modernism ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 16:44:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: post modern In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You know how "a" is to "nother." So "post" is to "modern" George Bowering, D.Litt. A true innocent. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 17:17:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Summer Starters In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit With MiPOesias (http://www.mipoesias.com): Mairead Byrne - "An Interview With a Wise Old Man" http://www.mipoesias.com/Interviews/byrne_mairead_interviewwithwiseoldman2006.html Anne Gorrick - "Fear of Taxidermy" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/gorrick_anne.html Lars Palm and Adam Fieled - "Isla Perdida," "this is a song (about how i'm a monkey)," and "Virtual Pinball" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/fieled_palm.html Scott Glassman - "Returning from you" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/glassman_scott.html Elena Georgiou - "Urban Aubade #1" and "Elegy for an Immigrant" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/georgiou_elena.html James Grinwis - "Charmland" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/grinwis_james.html Kate Greenstreet - from "Great Women of Science" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/greenstreet_kate.html Thurston Moore - "Boat" and "foreverness" http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/moore_thurston.html Cheers! Amy King and Didi Menendez http://www.mipoesias.com http://miporeadingseries.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 21:31:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: subtext seattle: Ethan FUGATE & Daniel COMISKEY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with readings by Ethan FUGATE and Daniel COMISKEY at Richard Hugo House on Wednesday, June 7, 2006. Donations for admission will be taken at the door on the evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30pm. Daniel Comiskey lives and works in Seattle. With Kreg Hasegawa, he edited Monkey Puzzle, a magazine of poetry and prose. He was a guest curator for the Subtext Reading Series in the fall of 2003, and worked as literary manager for The Poet's Theater, which produced readings of dramatic works written by poets including John Ashbery, e.e. cummings, Joyelle McSweeney, and Frank O'Hara. He has collaborated with other poets on a number of projects, the most recent of which is the long poem Crawlspace, written with C.E. Putnam and forthcoming as a chapbook (with bonus CD and 3-D glasses). Translations of Hu Xudong, produced in conjunction with Ying Qin, will appear later this year in the Talisman Anthology of Contemporary Chinese Poetry. DID hopped first shook twice fizzed close talked spot filled moon tripped road built wave tubbed big treed smell bused west had way more at home +++ Ethan Fugate is the author of self published chapbooks "Pneumatics" and "The Weight of the Sea in a Lazyboy Next Door." His work has recently appeared in The Brooklyn Rail, Puppyflowers.com, and poems from the "Lazyboy" series may be heard on Tangent Radio http://www.thetangentpress.org/radio.htm. Ethan is the co-editor of the journal POM2. Ethan lives in Brooklyn with his beagle Coltrane and is currently finishing book length version of the "Lazyboy" poems. ALL I HAVE TO DO IS SNAP MY FINGERS I know how to put a song inside your head. Wide-screen adventure and obsession with rain. This dog is named Lousy. Five pair dice and moonlight. Time to suck in your stomach, give your karaoke best. This dog is named Terminal. I know a way to implant this song. Especially since it is a rain song with five-part harmony and dogs. If you put fresh vegetables in that rainy place everyone would go there-even the Tugboat people. They don't name their dogs. This dog is Bridge, a little farther. Experiments With Parallelograms is this dog's Indian name. Should we even wait for the rain to shine? For the mad lightning to power the new mad science, or just hit the bar and let Kay Sara, (the drag queen) sing our blues away. Call this pup The Charm. A piano and some strings- in the background the cartographer meddles with a song about a dog. The rain shining has it. +++ The future Subtext 2006 schedule is: July 5, 2006 - Stephen Paul Martin (San Diego) & John Olson August 2, 2006 - Ed Roberson (Pittsburgh) & April DeNonno For info on these & other Subtext events, see our website: http://www.speakeasy.org/~subtext ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:57:24 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Blues For Marton Koppany MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dedicated to Marton Koppany from his friend, Jesse Glass A man named Marton was walking down the street A man named Marton was walking down the street, Down the street walked Marton. He was not bitter about the road he walked He was not bitter about the road he walked, Neither was he bitter in the talk he talked. He blessed the earth and he blessed the sky He blessed the earth and he blessed the sky And as he blessed he had a twinkle in his eye For he knew the road that he walked upon Was the self-same road that he talked upon, The road that he walked was the self-same one. So here comes Marton and there he goes Here comes Marton and there he goes, Where he will stop only Marton knows. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:03:41 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Blues As A Poetic Form MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So ok, I know the rules of the Poetics List. In order to get away with posting my thanks to Marton for his dedication poem at the latest Eratio, there has to be some context on the list. Has there been any recent discussion of blues as a legit. poetic form? Of course, the master of this form is Langston Hughes, but it would be great to find out about mistresses of this sole indigenous American poetic form as well, with examples from the latest practitioners, names of anthologies (if they exist), etc. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: New Publication: Klaus Peter Dencker's Collected Visual Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Visuelle Poesie, 1965 - 2005 Collected Visual Poems of Klaus Peter Dencker with Introductions by Karl Young and Franz Mon Klaus Peter Dencker has been considered Germany's leading visual poet and media theorist for several decades. He is unquestionably that country's most prominent anthologist of the genre. Dencker's work as a poet, anthologist, media critic, producer of documentaries for TV, and archivist of 20th century visual poetry in all modes put him in a unique position. As visual poetry joins web technology, and poetry and its graphic presentation become increasing difficult to keep segregated, Dencker presents alternatives to virtualy all modes while simultaneously including them. If you think you don't like visual poetry, there's a good chance this book will change your mind. If you're an afficionado of any visual poetry modes, this is a must-have volume. If you're not familiar with Dencker's work, or just plain curious, you can find a complete sequence of poems, Wort Koepfe, Karl Young's introduction to the book, and Dencker's most important essay, at Dencker's Light and Dust Survey: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/dencker/dencker.htm ___________________________________________________ Ordering information: This hard bound volume measures 9" x 11 1/2" and contains 318 pages of coated stock. The color printing is exquisite. Given publication subsidies in German speaking countries, the book's price, 34 Euros (U.S. $43) is almost comically inexpensive in comparison to comparable productions in the U.S. Postage, however, is postage the world over. For copies sent to the U.S., plain rate is $23 and faster shipping is $30. The book is also available in a special edition, limited to 100 copies, with a Dencker original laid in. 99 EU / $124 + shipping costs, same as above. Available from Bibliothek der Provinz Grosswolfgers 29 A-3970 Weitra Austria verlag@biblothekderprovinz.at http://www.bibliothekderprovinz.at/frameset.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:07:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: altered books project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The altered books project at: http://www.logolalia.com/alteredbooks/ has been updated with new work by: Meghan Scott, Michelle Taransky, Donna Kuhn, Nico Vassilakis, John M. Bennett, Mike Magazinnik, Sheila E. Murphy, D. Ross Priddle, Tim Martin, and Holly Crawford, Enjoy, Dan PS: and while you're there, you may also want to visit: beasties (currently featuring the diabolical gangreth (for Helen, 14) http://www.logolalia.com/beasties/ minimalist concrete poetry (currently featuring K.S. Ernst) http://www.logolalia.com/minimalistconcretepoetry/ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz (currently featuring Analphabet, by Geof Huth) http://www.logolalia.com/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ 40x365 (currently on 134, and with 55 others around the world playing along) http://www.logolalia.com/40x365/ untranslatable (most recent entry on the Finnish word "talkoot") http://www.logolalia.com/untranslatable/ Mail Art To And From Dan Waber (recent pieces from Roy Arenella, Unknown, R. Ward, Richard Canard, Tim Scannell, Malok, Laura Barletta, frips, Haje Holmstr=F6m, RF C=F4t=E9, and sghinopaullimo) http://www.logolalia.com/mailart/ kite tail press (most recent publication, the fourth in "The Fall Leaves Variations", "fall leaves" by endwar) http://www.logolalia.com/kitetailpress/ and more. Always and all ways there is more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 09:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed post-modern art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but much of that art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is museumified to a great extent. Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, the West Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has picked up an accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort of a "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, making an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the language rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against "globalization", while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist theory and local practise. Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:55:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Fwd: Walter White Comments: To: everett@filmstudies.ucsb.edu, kalamu@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-4gDsLMgTlTsgx0rdyvLP" --=-4gDsLMgTlTsgx0rdyvLP Content-Type: text/plain ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:32:52 +0000 From: "Jon-Christian Suggs" To: Subject: Walter White Aldon-- I am pasting here a call for proposals for a book of essays on Walter White. I have sent it to a few groups but want it to be broadcast as widely as possible. Can you pass it along to folks or groups who might be interested? Many thanks, Chris For a collection of essays on the life and career/s of Walter Francis White (1893-1955), I am soliciting proposals: White as novelist, cosmopolitan, cultural arbitrageur, African American, American, activist, political advisor, White in various contexts (NAACP, race, literature, "Harlem," national and international politics, masculinity), and on and on. Proposals and cvs as emails by August 1 2006. jsuggs1@nyc.rr.com jon-christian suggs chair, english john jay college the city university of new york 212 237-8562 --=-4gDsLMgTlTsgx0rdyvLP-- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:14:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: postmodern poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ` Aryanil Mukherjee writes: ` 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed post-modern art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but much of that art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is museumified to a great extent. Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, the West Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has picked up an accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort of a "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, making an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the language rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against "globalization", while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist theory and local practise.' ` ` This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language rules of the vernacular.' ` Thanks. Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino ` http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ ` ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:21:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: A<241D1358-EC01-11DA-A2F7-000D93B497AE@nyc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregory I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can see, especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and semantics of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed vernacular languages. Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most widely spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, that is largely influenced by English. These languages originated from Sanskrit which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite different from western languages. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of St. Thomasino Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: postmodern poetry ` Aryanil Mukherjee writes: ` 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed post-modern art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but much of that art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is museumified to a great extent. Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, the West Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has picked up an accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort of a "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, making an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the language rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against "globalization", while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist theory and local practise.' ` ` This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language rules of the vernacular.' ` Thanks. Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino ` http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ ` ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:41:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <00b901c68017$47c2f500$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'd love to see an example--a sentence or two in older (but post-sanskrit) and more recent Bengali, for instance, translated, of course. The kind of semantic change you describe usually takes a great deal of time. Some of the Latin dialects that became the Romance languages, for instance, were almost certainly well on their way to their modern, less-inflected forms by Cicero's time, well before foreign influence came into play. Even under the influence of rule by French-speaking overlords English remained syntactically distinct. Mark At 12:21 PM 5/25/2006, you wrote: >Gregory > >I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can see, >especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and semantics >of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed vernacular >languages. > >Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most widely >spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, that is >largely influenced by English. These languages originated from Sanskrit >which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite different from >western languages. > >Aryanil > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of St. Thomasino >Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: postmodern poetry > >` > >Aryanil Mukherjee writes: >` >'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed >post-modern >art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of >"anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but >much of >that >art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is museumified >to a great extent. > >Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, the >West >Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has picked >up an > >accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort of >a >"backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, >making >an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the >language >rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. > >All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against >"globalization", >while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist theory >and >local practise.' >` >` > >This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language >rules of the vernacular.' >` >Thanks. >Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino >` >http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ >` > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 12:54:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Harvey, Kunin, Shippy in NYC Sunday, May 28th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is no shaming in hearing Matthea Harvey, Aaron Kunin & Peter Jay Shippy Sunday, May 28th, 4PM The Cloister Café 238 East 9th Street Between 2nd & 3rd Avenues East Village, NYC The Burning Chair Blog: www:typomag.com/burningchair Contact: Matthew Henriksen at matt@typomag.com Author Bios Matthea Harvey’s books include Sad Little Breathing Machine (Greywolf Press) and Pity the Bathtub Its Forced Embrace of the Human Form (Alice James Books). She serves as poetry editor of American Letters and Commentary. Aaron Kunin is the author of Folding Ruler Star (Fence Books), a collection of small poems about shame; a novel, The Mandarin, is forthcoming in 2007. His work has appeared in The Germ, No: A Journal of the Arts, The Poker, and elsewhere. He recently moved to California, where he is an assistant professor of negative anthropology at Pomona College. Peter Jay Shippy's first book, Thieves' Latin (University of Iowa Press) won the 2002 Iowa Poetry Prize. BlazeVOX Books will publish Alphaville, an abecedarian suite, as an e-book in 2006. About Thieves' Latin, Bin Ramke, editor of the Denver Quarterly wrote, "Shippy's strange little machines of words are all kinetic, disturbing, and weirdly graceful, unlike anything else available in American poetry. A dazzling book." Claudia Keelan called it, "... a surrealist elegy for the earth... a fierce accomplishment." His work has been published in numerous journals, including The American Poetry Review, Fence, FIELD, The Iowa Review, McSweeney's Internet Tendency and Ploughshares, among others. Shippy has been awarded writing fellowships from the Massachusetts Cultural Council and the National Endowment for the Arts. In 2005 he received a Gertrude Stein Award for innovative poetry. He teaches at Emerson College and lives with his wife in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:48:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Factory School Subject: Factory School Moving to New York Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Though it has been no secret to many of our friends and associates, there has been no announcement. The three founding members of the Factory School learning and production collective are moving to New York City this summer to begin a campaign of work, cultural action, documentation, and knowledge sharing. Please continue to direct all general queries to info at factory school dot org, and note mailing address changes as they appear on our website. Thanks for your patience, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:03:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 5/26 - 5/31 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, It was brought to our attention at last night=B9s reading that olives are stored in long narrow jars so that all of the olives can see out. We find this to be a pleasing observation; it would please us greatly to se= e you here this coming week. Love, The Poetry Project Friday, May 26, 10:30pm Book Party: Bonny Finberg: How The Discovery Of Sugar Produced The Romantic Era =20 5 guys, 5!!! will read from Bonny Finberg=B9s new short story collection from Sisyphus Press. The collection is comprised of 12 short stories, more like 12 'unfinished novels' or 'story haiku,' from the male point of view. With Leonard Abrams, Regie Cabico, Joe Maynard, Thad Rutkowski and Jameel Moondoc. Bonny Finberg=B9s fiction, poetry, essays, book reviews, and photographs have been published in numerous anthologies, including Best American Erotica of 1996, Crimes of the Beats, Outlaw Bible of American Poetry, and A Gathering of Tribes. Monday, May 29, 8:00pm Marisol Limon Martinez & Ryan Murphy =20 Marisol Limon Martinez was born in San Antonio, Texas and has lived in New York City for 13 years. She makes drawings, paintings, books and piano music. After you, dearest language..., published by Ugly Duckling Presse, i= s her first book of writing. Ryan Murphy is the author of Down with the Ship from Otis Books/Seismicity Editions, as well as the chapbooks, The Gales (Pound for Pound), Ocean Park (A Rest Press) and On Violet Street (The Aldrich Museum of Art and Design). Wednesday, May 31, 8:00pm Susan M. Schultz, Mark Wallace & Stephen Vincent =20 Mark Wallace is the author of Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn=B9t There and Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner. Temporary Worker Rides A Subway won the 200= 2 Gertrude Stein Poetry Award and was published by Green Integer Books. His multi-genre work Haze was published in 2004, as was his novel Dead Carnival= . Susan M. Schultz has taught at the University of Hawai`i since 1990. She is the author of the books Memory Cards & Adoption Papers and And then something happened. The University of Alabama Press recently published her collection of essays, A Poetics of Impasse in Modern and Contemporary American Poetry. She edits Tinfish Press. Stephen Vincent lives in San Francisco. Walking was published by Junction Press. Recent ebook publications include Triggers, from Shearsman Books, and Sleeping With Sappho, from faux press. The Recluse is Approaching Wednesday, June 7, 8:00pm Save the date and join us to usher in The Recluse 2. Poets from the 1st and 2nd issues will read, including Arlo Quint, Guillermo Castro, John Yau, Lauren Russell, Macgregor Card, Marcella Durand, Ted Greenwald and Yuko Otomo.=20 Spring Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:02:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: Factory School Moving to New York Comments: cc: David Raphael Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And where (i.e. at what URL) may your good website be found, praytell? cheers, d.i. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Factory School Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:49 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Factory School Moving to New York Though it has been no secret to many of our friends and associates, there has been no announcement. The three founding members of the Factory School learning and production collective are moving to New York City this summer to begin a campaign of work, cultural action, documentation, and knowledge sharing. Please continue to direct all general queries to info at factory school dot org, and note mailing address changes as they appear on our website. Thanks for your patience, =3D=3D=3D david raphael israel http://kirwani.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:01:41 -0700 Reply-To: jim@vispo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Bukowski in Rio In-Reply-To: <3A062C93-63DA-400B-A2D5-DA84B6DD33EA@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Arrived in Rio today. Not far from my hotel in Ipanema is the Livraria da Travessa, a large book store. The first books in English I saw were on a table covered with about 15 Bukowski titles. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:50:38 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Blues As A Poetic Form MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am the practioner Jess, the one worth paying attention to on the blues, wrote a whole series on the rez this winter out in Albuquerque. I'll share my importance tho, Ty Williams is also worth mentioning so is the new well accoladed book by my friend Terrance Hayes or some of his earlier esp the spectacular poem "Miles Davis Beat his Wife". What else do you need? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 00:09:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe the discussion may lead to more fruitful results if one goes to artist= s=20 who are clearly post-modern. For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is not;=20 Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart and R= umble=20 Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. In poetry, Charles Bernstein is postmodern, Ron Silliman is not. Ron Silliman's discussion of the novel Da Vinci Code in his blog is=20 postmodern, his discussions of poems are not. The new look of MOMA (art as a bazaar, museum as a cramped arcade) is=20 postmodern, the old MOMA is not. Of course, I may be just adding to the confusion. Ciao, Murat In a message dated 5/25/06 9:30:04 AM, aryanil@KAURAB.COM writes: > nterestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed post-modern > art (poetry included of course) is=A0 "an art of dissent" and of > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but much o= f > that > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is museumified > to a great extent. >=20 > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, the We= st > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has picked up=20= an >=20 > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort of a > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, making > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the language > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. >=20 > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against "globalization= ", > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist theory and > local practise. >=20 > Aryanil >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 16:40:32 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem with my position--'there is no post-modern'--is that it = implies we,=20 we're all still modern, and it behooves me then to propose a = discrimination of modernisms, something like what Murat proposes, although he confuses me. For = example, when Bernstein refuses irony he does so, so I presume, to deny being thought of as 'clearly' = postmodern.=20 Best, Wystan =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Murat Nemet-Nejat Sent: Friday, 26 May 2006 4:10 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? Maybe the discussion may lead to more fruitful results if one goes to = artists=20 who are clearly post-modern. For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is = not;=20 Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart = and Rumble=20 Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. In poetry, Charles Bernstein is postmodern, Ron Silliman is not. Ron Silliman's discussion of the novel Da Vinci Code in his blog is=20 postmodern, his discussions of poems are not. The new look of MOMA (art as a bazaar, museum as a cramped arcade) is=20 postmodern, the old MOMA is not. Of course, I may be just adding to the confusion. Ciao, Murat In a message dated 5/25/06 9:30:04 AM, aryanil@KAURAB.COM writes: > nterestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed=20 > post-modern art (poetry included of course) is=A0 "an art of dissent"=20 > and of "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, = > but much of that art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have=20 > been/is museumified to a great extent. >=20 > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia,=20 > the West Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry=20 > has picked up an >=20 > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort=20 > of a "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in=20 > time, making an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions,=20 > from the language rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most=20 > importantly, nature. >=20 > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against=20 > "globalization", while for others, it creates a great conflict between = > colonist theory and local practise. >=20 > Aryanil >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 00:57:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: New Politics Editor for Boog City Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i'm happy to announce that boog city is adding another boston ex-pat to our editorial staff--joining printed matter editor mark lamoureux--with christina strong coming onboard as politics editor with the july issue. for those of you unfamiliar with her, she is a poet and designer whose new chapbook, [anti-erato] was published by portable press at yo-yo labs. her chapbook utopian politics was published by faux press in 2004, and her poems have appeared in pom2, shampoo, boog city, and a number of other journals. she is also the editor of openmouth press (recent titles include: accede, some arguments, pardon our progress, and the sunday morning anthology). she also manages the websites xtina.org and openmouth.org, and has a good number of protest rallies under her belt. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 01:55:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AMBogle2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Blues -- Speek den Reed Comments: cc: bruce@veerybooks.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speak Then Read What you never had for your sorrow for the work you do Got love enough to be content? Who but you can argue for yourself? I've got the troubles of mine to suffer too. We are in a boat alike When we say yes We are in a boat alike. . . . Speek den Reed Wut ne had yoo fore yer sarro fore de work yoo doo Gott yoo luv eenuf fore to bee cuntent? hoo but yoo kan argyoo fore yoreself ai gott de trubbels uv mine too suffer too wee arr inn a bote alike wenn wee say yess wee arr inn a bote alike (Madison, WI, 1982) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 23:33:18 -0700 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: nEW sPD POLICIES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Our take as Pavement Saw Press-- a non-reliant publisher- - In the past Jeffrey Lependorf's policies with CLMP have created difficulties for us, as CLMP's best interest has been with national pubilishers who are _not_ small presses, or not interested in minorities either racially or sexually, in fact such publishers as the Kenyon Review, who have few links to Ohio, have been the primary link to a Columbus based literary festival, which has failed as the result of our lack of local support as an outside entity. As I have pinted out to Jeff, this is the equivalent of having the Hudson Quarterly decide the important poets of NYC. I really wonder what to expect when one of our national suppliers, Small Press Distribution, is linking forces with a group that cares naught for smaller American publishers and has tried to placate this problem through a frail understanding, which included a predictable placation of our titles on the basis of race, a hope that by sectioning us off as a an American Indian publisher that CLMP would be able to placate their lack of understanding of midwest publishers, let alone those such as ourselves who have a more than three quarter American indian background that the Kenyon Review and CLMP has chosen to fully ignore. As a result of Lependorf's past actions we have chosen not to remain members of CLMP, we have not paid dues, and have _successfully_ urged many other publishers not to agree to be members who are of minority membership. I do not want to create problems with this but our board has decided that CLMP's consistent antics of a white controlled, or at least a anti-non university controlled group consisting primarily of a white constituency, choosing to be against our publishing efforts and the best interests of their focus group and audience, is just something that we do not need to deal with,(at the very least, hands down, 5 to 6 in our board). I think his "adoption" by SPD is something unacceptable and we need to talk about this and what measures will be made to control the prejudical nature of Lepordorff's assimiltative practices before we consider considering our tenure with SPD as one of our minor distributors. I am not sure of your thots on this but our boards feelings is that Lependorf is an explotative toad who wishes to have publishers such as ourselves join him without conflict so he can exploit our literature on the basis of race. I hate to be a prick but the Am. Indian community in general, thinks he is off base with no valid points, I will do all possible to prevent my collusion with his policies, I wish I knew before the new newsletter as we would have bothered to advertise. Perhaps one of you should call me for the full scoop, and the exacting problem of the situation, 614-445-0534, Dave, be well-- sorry to hear of your choice to attempt a change from us-- Dear SPD Publisher, I’m very happy to tell you about an exciting new development at SPD. We have entered into a partnership agreement with the Council of Literary Magazines & Presses and Literary Venture Network. We believe that combining the resources of SPD, CLMP and the LVF allows us to best serve our shared mission of linking writers and readers through literary publishing. Through a shared service agreement, Jeffrey Lependorf, who is Executive Director of CLMP and LVF, will also be serving as Executive Director of SPD. He and the staffs of all three organizations will be working to develop efforts that better serve all of our constituents. At the same time, by combining resources, we will be able to maximize our budget potential to serve all of you as effectively as possible. On behalf of our combined Boards and Staffs, I invite you to contact us with your ideas for maximizing this partnership. We are here to serve you and welcome your thoughts about how we can best strengthen our community to better bring literature to our potential audiences. Please see the thumbnail sketches below for updates about all three organizations. If you have any questions, please contact me by email at laura@spdbooks.org. Warm regards, Laura Moriarty Deputy Director Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 00:22:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jules Boykoff Subject: Buuck, Cohen, & Sprague in Portland, Oregon on Saturday Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed For people in and around Portland, Oregon.... ...You are invited to attend the inaugural poetry reading of the=20 Tangent Reading Series: David Buuck (Oakland, CA) Alicia Cohen (Portland) Jane Sprague (Long Beach, CA) will read their work on Saturday May 27 at 6:30 p.m. Clinton Corner Caf=E9 2633 SE 21st Ave. (Corner of SE Clinton St. and 21st Avenue) Reader bios: David Buuck lives in Oakland, where he edits Tripwire, and organizes=20 BARGE, the Bay Area Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics. He is=20 contributing editor at Artweek, and a grad student in the History of=20 Consciousness program at UC-Santa Cruz. Alicia Cohen is a poet, artist, critic, and teacher living in Portland.=20= Her book of poems, Bear, was published by Handwritten Press in 2000 and=20= in 2003 she wrote, directed, and produced a multimedia opera and=20 gallery installation about Portland called Northwest Inhabitation Log.=20= Recently a visiting professor of English at Reed College, she holds a=20 PhD in poetics from SUNY Buffalo. Jane Sprague's poems and reviews of contemporary art and poetry have=20 been published in a variety of places including kultureflash, Kiosk,=20 ecopoetics, Tinfish, Bird Dog and others. Her chapbooks include=20 monster: a bestiary, break / fast, The Port of Los Angeles and fuck=20 your pastoral. She is currently completing a book of poems that deal=20 with globalization, ecology, and commerce as it is played out daily in=20= the ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, California where she currently=20= lives. The Tangent Reading Series is hosted by Kaia Sand & Jules Boykoff. www.thetangentpress.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 05:20:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/26/06 12:41:55 AM, w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ writes: > The problem with my position--'there is no post-modern'--is that it implie= s=20 > we, > we're all still modern, and it behooves me then to propose a discriminatio= n=20 > of modernisms, > something like what Murat proposes, although he confuses me. For example,=20 > when Bernstein refuses irony > he does so, so I presume, to deny being thought of as 'clearly' postmodern= . > Best, > Wystan=A0 >=20 I think to understand Charles's post-modernism, one has to focus on his=20 relation to mannerist art, though it might be blasphemous to say it. Languag= e=20 school in my view, at bottom, is a mannerist movement. What is the idea that= all=20 reality is buried in language finally but a mannerist conceit? The Sophists is a great mannerist work.=20 As to the question of irony -mannerist art does seem to involve an=20 aestheticizing aspect, and Charles believes in bad art (taste). But are thes= e two things=20 so different? Both involve a foregrounding of style; they are stylistic=20 attributes. How can one use language as clay without being aware of it? The meaning of irony in the modern is distance, as in T.S. Eliot, etc,; the=20 mannerist irony is awareness, of its own motions. To be continued. Ciao, Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 08:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amanda Earl Subject: Blues As A Poetic Form In-Reply-To: <20060526035038.71115.qmail@web82206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Something I thought you might find interesting, since you're discussing the blues and poetry: "Why I Sing The Blues" is a Canadian anthology of lyrics and poems that includes a 13 song CD. It was edited by Jan Zwicky and Brad Cran (Smoking Lung Press, 2001). It includes some interesting work, by poets like George Elliot Clarke, Ken Babstock, Lorna "Jean" Crozier etc. http://www.nwpassages.com/profile_book.asp?ISBN=1894442016 Amanda Earl Ottawa, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 09:20:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <00b901c68017$47c2f500$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Examples? M On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Gregory > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can see, > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and semantics > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed vernacular > languages. > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most > widely > spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, that > is > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from > Sanskrit > which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite different > from > western languages. > > Aryanil > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of St. Thomasino > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: postmodern poetry > > ` > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > ` > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed > post-modern > art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but > much of > that > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is > museumified > to a great extent. > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, > the > West > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has > picked > up an > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort > of > a > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, > making > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the > language > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against > "globalization", > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist > theory > and > local practise.' > ` > ` > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language > rules of the vernacular.' > ` > Thanks. > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > ` > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > ` > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:27:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Lipstick of Noise - Updated Track List Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed The Lipstick of Noise: Listening & Linking to Poetry Audio Files Regular html version > http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.html new: XML-version (scroll to bottom of page to subscribe to "feeds") > http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.php Tracks discussed to date (most recent first): Ernst Jandl - What You Can Do Without Vowels Amiri Baraka - Black Dada Nihilismus (DJ Spooky Mix) Bernadette Mayer - Catullus 42 Rae Armantrout - Next Life Paul Dutton - Untitled Mei-mei Berssenbrugge - from Safety Kenneth Goldsmith - Sings Adorno Kit Robinson - Return on Word bpNichol - Not What the Siren Sang but What the Frag Ment Brenda Coultas - Opening the Cabinet Anselm Berrigan - We're Not Going to Turn Me In Tom Raworth - Catacoustics Tracie Morris - My Great Grand Aunt Meets a Bush Supporter Brian Kim Stefans / Roger Pellet - I Know a Man Ron Padgett - Bob Creeley Breakthrough Barbara Guest - An Emphasis Falls on Reality & Quoting Adorno Sawako Nakayasu - Capacity Gary Sullivan - Hello & Welcome to Poetry Phone Elizabeth Willis - Kiss Me Deadly Ange Mlinko - Poem Bejeweled by Proper Nouns Jaap Blonk - Flux-de-Bouche John Wieners - The Garbos & Dietrichs Linh DInh - Acoustics Erica Hunt - Ecstasy Tips on what to listen to next always appreciated! Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:32:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: A<4476C87A.19754.B084241@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcus Hundreds of examples could be thrown to illustrate how external catalysts change a language. It is a fascinating topic. Let me discuss one little example here - Most Indian language (Hindi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc.) words derived from Sanskrit historically held more than one meaning; in many cases several. Because of a verb-based semantic structure, each word is derived from a root-word (verb). The root-word does not have a specific meaning, but like color in a painting, it has an impression, a flavor, often signifies an action. Take for example the word "akshar". This word exists today in many Indian languages. It means "letter" , sometimes "digit". The word is derived from the sanskrit root-word "ash" which holds a quality of dynamism. The word "ashwa" meaning "horse" is derived from the same root word. A "letter" is used to create a word, words create a sentence, sentences make a text ...and so on. So at the elementary core of language is a letter, a nuclear being, which was meant to be dynamic, mobile. We say - "language flows". That sense was captured by the root-word which was in use in ancient India thousands of years back. In ancient Indian societies "akshar" meant a lot of things, like something "mobile", different life-forms etc. It also meant "letter". What captures motion in nature ? The eye. Hence, the word "akshi" meaning "eye" was also derived from the same root-word. Under colonial rule (British), a direct cultural clash resulted between language traditions and when colonial powers dominate, their language begins to dominate too. A language that had both verbal power and mysticism in its womb soon had to be aborted. Specific meanings had to be culled from each word. Colonial language coerced all major vernacular languages to set up a word-for-word correspondence to make effective communication made possible "their" way. In the process, words soon became barren - they were made to hold a singular meaning. The rest was considered "abscess". Today, the word "akshar" just means "letter". In fact, it has fewer meaning and usage than the english word "letter" might have. "Akshi" is an old fashioned word; for example, it is considered archaic to use this word to mean 'eye" in an Indian poem today. Some "Post-modern" Indian poets are thus talking about resuming this "backward journey" - back to those words that felt like bee-hives, that had more meaning, more weight, more honey and more buzz. But then, colonial opression still continues in the language domain - so I'm not sure how the revival would be made possible. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:21 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: postmodern poetry Examples? M On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Gregory > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can see, > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and semantics > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed vernacular > languages. > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most > widely > spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, that > is > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from > Sanskrit > which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite different > from > western languages. > > Aryanil > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of St. Thomasino > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: postmodern poetry > > ` > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > ` > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed > post-modern > art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but > much of > that > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is > museumified > to a great extent. > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, > the > West > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has > picked > up an > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort > of > a > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, > making > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the > language > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against > "globalization", > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist > theory > and > local practise.' > ` > ` > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language > rules of the vernacular.' > ` > Thanks. > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > ` > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > ` > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:43:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: A<430.24749af.31a7d996@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 12:10 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is not; Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart and Rumble Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. In poetry, Charles Bernstein is postmodern, Ron Silliman is not. =========================================================================== Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is post-modern and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ? - for my own understanding. Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:02:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me echo and expand Aryanil's question, why indeed? Altman yes, = Allen no? Tarantino yes, Scorcese no...why so? And again, not to disagree with, or dispute, or challenge the = statements; rather merely to understand.=20 Back channel if you feel the topic might be too remedial for others on = the list.=20 Thanks,=20 Alex ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Aryanil Mukherjee=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:43 AM Subject: Re: post modern? Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 12:10 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is = not;=20 Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart = and Rumble=20 Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. In poetry, Charles Bernstein is postmodern, Ron Silliman is not. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is = post-modern and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ?=20 - for my own understanding. Aryanil=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:04:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Mark Wallace East Coast Readings May 31 - June 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Friends: Here's a list of my upcoming east coast readings in New York, Baltimore, and Washington. I'd love to see you at any of these events and for conversation afterwards. Wednesday, May 31, 8 p.m. w/ Susan Schultz and Stephen Vincent The Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St. New York, NY 10003 For more info: http://www.poetryproject.com Saturday, June 3, 4 p.m. w/ Laura Sims and Mike Kelleher i.e. reading series Clayton & Co. Fine Books 317 N. Charles Street Baltimore, MD 21201 410-752-6800 For more info: http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/thepixelplus/nhieschedule.html Sunday, June 4, 7 p.m. w/ Karen Weiser Bridge Street Books 2814 Pennsylvania Ave. (at M St. NW) For more info: http://www.dcpoetry.com If for any reason you'd like to reach me by phone, I'll have my cell with me: 202-236-3312. It would be fantastic to see you! Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:25:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <00c201c680e3$7c14fe80$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is post-modern > and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ? I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers might make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or maybe they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue whether or not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Daniel f. Bradley" Subject: Re: post mortem? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit bernstein as the bank president with a secret and behind the robing of his own bank silliman as the CFO and bag man - very enron Stephen Vincent wrote: > Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is post-modern > and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ? I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers might make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or maybe they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue whether or not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. helping to kill your literati star since 2004 http://fhole.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:26:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: challenge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I challenge any poet out there in eyeshot of this post to come up with a better title for a collection of poems than "Concerto for Bell and Telephone" (Madeline Gleason, Unicorn Press, 1967). I really don't think it can be done. I came across the book randomly, and am now reading the preface to the Talisman House Collected Poems edition. I'm surprised I've never heard of her - she sounds like a fascinating woman. Dan -- http://hyperhypo.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:53:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <00c101c680e1$fd794d20$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is not a syntactic change. And I'm guessing that you're vastly exaggerating the impact of two centuries (in Bengal--a lot less elsewhere) of British colonialism on the meanings of words. As in all other languages, I assume that the cluster of meanings that attaches to a particular word in Sanskrit-derived languages changes over time, otherwise "silly" would still mean "innocent." It's not all loss--some words lose no meanings, and others gain new meanings. And some words are added, others lost entirely. In Spanish in the past hundred years or so there's been a reinvestment by poets in older meanings of words--one aspect of the neobarroco--which has greatly enriched the textures of their poetry. They don't blame the changes in the language on this or that hegemon, tho. I'd guess that in the Indian case doing so is as much a political as a linguistic statement. Mark At 12:32 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: >Marcus > >Hundreds of examples could be thrown to illustrate how external catalysts >change a language. It is a fascinating topic. Let me discuss one little >example here - > >Most Indian language (Hindi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc.) words >derived from Sanskrit historically held more than one meaning; in many cases >several. Because of a verb-based semantic structure, each word is derived >from a root-word (verb). The root-word does not have a specific meaning, but >like color in a painting, it has an impression, a flavor, often signifies >an action. > >Take for example the word "akshar". This word exists today in many Indian >languages. It means "letter" , sometimes "digit". The word is derived from >the sanskrit root-word "ash" which holds a quality of dynamism. The word >"ashwa" meaning "horse" is derived from the same root word. > >A "letter" is used to create a word, words create a sentence, sentences make >a text ...and so on. So at the elementary core of language is a letter, a >nuclear being, which was meant to be dynamic, mobile. We say - "language >flows". That sense was captured by the root-word which was in use in ancient >India thousands of years back. In ancient Indian societies "akshar" meant a >lot of things, like something "mobile", different life-forms etc. It also >meant "letter". What captures motion in nature ? The eye. Hence, the word >"akshi" meaning "eye" was also derived from the same root-word. > >Under colonial rule (British), a direct cultural clash resulted between >language traditions and when colonial powers dominate, their language >begins to dominate too. A language that had both verbal power and mysticism >in its womb soon had to be aborted. Specific meanings had to be culled from >each word. Colonial language coerced all major vernacular languages to set >up a word-for-word correspondence to make effective communication made >possible "their" way. In the process, words soon became barren - they were >made to hold a singular meaning. The rest was considered "abscess". > >Today, the word "akshar" just means "letter". In fact, it has fewer meaning >and usage than the english word "letter" might have. "Akshi" is an old >fashioned word; for example, it is considered archaic to use this word to >mean 'eye" in an Indian poem today. > >Some "Post-modern" Indian poets are thus talking about resuming this >"backward journey" - back to those words that felt like bee-hives, that had >more meaning, more weight, more honey and more buzz. But then, colonial >opression still continues in the language domain - so I'm not sure how >the revival would be made possible. > >Aryanil > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Marcus Bales >Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:21 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > >Examples? > >M > >On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > Gregory > > > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can see, > > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and semantics > > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed vernacular > > languages. > > > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most > > widely > > spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, that > > is > > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from > > Sanskrit > > which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite different > > from > > western languages. > > > > Aryanil > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of St. Thomasino > > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: postmodern poetry > > > > ` > > > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > > ` > > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed > > post-modern > > art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of > > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, but > > much of > > that > > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is > > museumified > > to a great extent. > > > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, Indonesia, > > the > > West > > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry has > > picked > > up an > > > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying sort > > of > > a > > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in time, > > making > > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from the > > language > > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, nature. > > > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against > > "globalization", > > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist > > theory > > and > > local practise.' > > ` > > ` > > > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language > > rules of the vernacular.' > > ` > > Thanks. > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > ` > > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > > ` > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 11:09:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "From Zine to Screen" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://hyperex.co.uk/reviewezines.php ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Or...Langpo Sitcom!!! At 10:25 AM -0700 5/26/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is post-modern >> and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ? > >I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers might >make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or maybe >they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue whether or >not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. > >Stephen V >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >Currently home of the Tenderly series, >A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 16:52:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Not long ago I asked Ann Lauterbach for her definition of post modernism. Her idea was that modernists take as their locus the self, the hub of the wheel, post modernists others, the spokes of the wheel. Nick P. On 5/26/06 4:14 PM, "Maria Damon" wrote: > Or...Langpo Sitcom!!! > > At 10:25 AM -0700 5/26/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>> Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is post-modern >>> and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ? >> >> I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers might >> make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or maybe >> they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue whether or >> not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> Currently home of the Tenderly series, >> A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 16:59:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Movement Research / Performance Journal #30 - Call for Submissions Comments: cc: David Raphael Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forwarding, for poss. interest of writers here. =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 From: Movement Research [mailto:info@movementresearch.org]=20 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 3:53 PM =20 Call for SUBMISSIONS =20 Movement Research Performance Journal #30 =20 Editorial Team: Chris Atamian, Trajal Harrell, Jill Sigman =20 =20 Editors' Statement Like all MR Performance Journals, the next PJ is an experiment in content and form. This particular experiment distinguishes itself by substituting the established thematic approach to the Journal's content with a multiplicity of current topics and ideas. This particular inquiry began as a series of questions relating to contemporary dance and its negotiation with the larger culture. With this in mind, we began to explore the ways our experimental artistic community and its practices might intersect with a traditional magazine format. We are interested in providing a unique forum for increased visibility, critical rigor, and a multi-disciplinary readership. Writings will be specifically linked to events, artists, trends, and ideas associated with the '05-'06 season and well as the upcoming '06-'07 season, in New York as well as nationally and internationally. =20 With this in mind, we welcome and encourage submissions that similarly address the current contemporary field and its highlights, trends, and ever-changing shape. If interested in proposing an article, interview, critical essay, profile, or visual/graphic, please submit a brief paragraph outlining your proposal or intent to write, indicating your topic and the approximate length of the final article, to the best of your knowledge and intention.=20 =20 ALL proposals, submissions, and issue-specific inquiries should be emailed to both of the following addresses by June 15, 2006: mrpj30@gmail.com =20 carlapeterson@movementresearch.org =20 =20 All selected writers will be notified by June 26, 2006. =20 Final drafts of selected articles will be due by August 1, 2006=20 =20 More general inquiries on the Performance Journal should be emailed to: carlapeterson@movementresearch.org =20 =20 =20 =20 Movement Research Office address: Dance Theater Workshop, 219 W. 19th St. (7th & 8th Ave) Mailing address: P.O. Box 49, Old Chelsea Station, New York NY 10113 phone: 212.598.0551, hotline: 212.539.2611, fax: 212.633.1974 email: info@movementresearch.org www.movementresearch.org =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:47:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Blues As A Poetic Form In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060526075148.02c0cca8@smtp.storm.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 26-May-06, at 5:01 AM, Amanda Earl wrote: > Something I thought you might find interesting, since you're > discussing the blues and poetry: > > "Why I Sing The Blues" is a Canadian anthology of lyrics and poems > that includes a 13 song CD. It was edited by Jan Zwicky and Brad Cran > (Smoking Lung Press, 2001). It includes some interesting work, by > poets like George Elliot Clarke, Ken Babstock, Lorna "Jean" Crozier > etc. > > http://www.nwpassages.com/profile_book.asp?ISBN=1894442016 > > Amanda Earl > Ottawa, Canada Yes, but you will have to look very very hard to find anything resembling the blues as a form. > George Bowering, D. Litt. Trying to improve in all ways. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 15:52:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: challenge In-Reply-To: <750c78460605261026v3a829eedtd6723a1789f28a7b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 26-May-06, at 10:26 AM, Dan Coffey wrote: > I challenge any poet out there in eyeshot of this post to come up with > a > better title for a collection of poems than "Concerto for Bell and > Telephone" (Madeline Gleason, Unicorn Press, 1967). I really don't > think it > can be done. > > I came across the book randomly, and am now reading the preface to the > Talisman House Collected Poems edition. I'm surprised I've never heard > of > her - she sounds like a fascinating woman. > > Dan > -- > http://hyperhypo.org There was a pretty well known poetry anthology that came out in 1960, called The New American Poetry, edited by Donald M. Allen. She was in that. > > George H. Bowering Fears a symmetrical oyster. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:02:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: last night's reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain photos from last night's reading at CAFE ROYALE now up at the blog site: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 20:52:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: challenge In-Reply-To: <3FDFA4A8-ED0A-11DA-99A4-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > On 26-May-06, at 10:26 AM, Dan Coffey wrote: > >> I challenge any poet out there in eyeshot of this post to come up >> with a >> better title for a collection of poems than "Concerto for Bell and >> Telephone" (Madeline Gleason, Unicorn Press, 1967). I really >> don't think it >> can be done. Hmm, could have been Concerto for Marvin Bell and Telephone. "The more you throw tomatoes on Sopranoes, the more they yell." --Georges Perec (attrib. to Unsofort and Tchetera) Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:14:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: challenge In-Reply-To: <1AA9FEA1-3F9B-4A8D-BF73-E7407B6DBA6F@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Halvard Johnson wrote: > Hmm, could have been Concerto for Marvin Bell and Telephone. > > > "The more you throw tomatoes on Sopranoes, the more they yell." > --Georges Perec > (attrib. to Unsofort and Tchetera) If Bell were to seek pharmaceutical help for Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, doubtless you would mean *Concerta* for Marvin Bell and Cell Phone. (Naturally, I hope said writer does not in fact have said disorder.) Gwyn "Too Broke to Sue" McVay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 19:08:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: C Daly Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable laugh track or live studio audience? -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 1:15 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? Or...Langpo Sitcom!!! At 10:25 AM -0700 5/26/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is post-modern >> and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino post-modern ? > >I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers = might >make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or = maybe >they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue = whether or >not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the = rest. > >Stephen V >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >Currently home of the Tenderly series, >A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: challenge In-Reply-To: <3FDFA4A8-ED0A-11DA-99A4-000A95C34F08@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sorry George, I wasn't even born then, so there was no way I could have ordered it through Amazon. Actually I have that anth in my office but I must have missed Madeline. Or maybe mistook her for a Kyger. On 5/26/06, George Bowering wrote: > > > > There was a pretty well known poetry anthology that came out in 1960, > called The New American Poetry, edited by Donald M. Allen. > > She was in that. > > > > > George H. Bowering > Fears a symmetrical oyster. > -- http://hyperhypo.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 00:53:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/26/06 1:24:30 PM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers might > make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or maybe > they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue whether or > not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Currently home of the Tenderly series, > A serial work in progress. > Maybe Charles and Ron in a retro Greek restaurant attacked by a black school of quietitude poet with curly hair? Ciao, Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 06:37:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve potter Subject: postmodern Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. One aspect of the "Postmodern Condition" is the loss of the reality principle, the loss of any clear sense of the real versus the imaginary. Some examples straight from the papers: water pistol designed to look so much like actual pistol a kid gets shot dead by a cop; firemen in Los Angeles wasting several minutes trying to connect their hoses to a fire hydrant before realizing it's a movie prop not connected to any water supply; models hired to portray "real people" having a get together inside a model home during an open house at a new real estate development to help lure buyers who'd naturally want to live near such hip and attractive people; a magnificent slight-of-hand act, that fooled the investing world awhile, called Enron; and the ever more common Columbine to Kyle Huff horror of desperately unhappy young men taking their video game fantasy shoot em ups into the real world. Or consider how, as we progress through time and develop greater stores of data, the time it takes to go from science fiction to science fact gets shorter and shorter. Think how long it took from Da Vinci's first drawing of a helicopter to the creation of an actual working helicopter. Compare that to the much shorter amount of time from Jules Verne's Rocket to the Moon to the Apollo program, from "If God had intended man to fly, he'd have given us wings" to the SST. I read that the average lifespan for a scientifically verifiable "truth" was down to about 25 years (read it so long ago that we're probably down to 5 or 10 years by now). The TRUTH ain't what it used to be. There is less and less consensus reality, more and more isolated personal reality. That is the postmodern condition. It's probably more useful to talk about the way a particular work responds to the condition of postmodernity than whether a work is or is not itself postmodern. steve potter > >For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is not; >Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart and >Rumble >Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 06:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodern In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 May 2006 at 6:37, steve potter wrote: > One aspect of the "Postmodern Condition" is the loss of the reality > principle, the loss of any clear sense of the real versus the > imaginary. First, I think it is simply not the case that there is any greater loss of a clear sense of the real versus the imaginary now in the West than at any other time in human history. When someone is hit by a car or bit by a dog they do not call on God instead of going to the hospital (in addition, certainly, but not instead). When they're hungry, they eat food, not wax imitations -- not after the first bite. People can be fooled; other people try to fool them, for fun or profit. But that has been the case for all of human history, and it is false, and I think a peculiar falsity of the ivory tower outlook, to claim that this is "postmodern". Perhaps ivory tower dwellers have only just noticed that people are gullible and venal and in their shock and dismay have decided to call it "postmodern"? > Some examples straight from the papers: water pistol designed to > look so > much like actual pistol a kid gets shot dead by a cop; firemen in > Los > Angeles wasting several minutes trying to connect their hoses to a > fire > hydrant before realizing it's a movie prop not connected to any > water > supply; models hired to portray "real people" having a get together > inside a > model home during an open house at a new real estate development to > help > lure buyers who'd naturally want to live near such hip and > attractive > people; a magnificent slight-of-hand act, that fooled the investing > world > awhile, called Enron; and the ever more common Columbine to Kyle > Huff horror > of desperately unhappy young men taking their video game fantasy > shoot em > ups into the real world.< Even if there were a loss of a clear sense of the real versus the imaginary, these are _terrible_ examples of such a thing. These are all examples of one set of people trying to fool another set, not examples of areas of the world where gravity doesn't work any more for a bit and then does again, or where medicines work and don't work depending on some imponderable, or that some gods have started really intervening in the real world in response to some kinds of prayer, or just for sport, or that pollutants have triggered chemicals in the human brain that prevent us from perceiving the difference between hallucinations and reality, or other such real losses of "the real versus the imaginary". Your examples are all trivially irrelevant to your claim. > Or consider how, as we progress through time and develop greater > stores of > data, the time it takes to go from science fiction to science fact > gets > shorter and shorter. Think how long it took from Da Vinci's first > drawing of > a helicopter to the creation of an actual working helicopter. > Compare that > to the much shorter amount of time from Jules Verne's Rocket to the > Moon to > the Apollo program, from "If God had intended man to fly, he'd have > given us > wings" to the SST. I read that the average lifespan for a > scientifically > verifiable "truth" was down to about 25 years (read it so long ago > that > we're probably down to 5 or 10 years by now). The TRUTH ain't what > it used > to be. There is less and less consensus reality, more and more > isolated > personal reality.< There is not less consensus reality -- there is less consensus social agreement. People constuct, in the midst of a hugely wealthy society, very different sets of social mores. Their energies are expended in attempts to form personally meaningful social groups because they no longer have to expend those energies just to stay alive and try to explain the world around them. The world around them is adequately explained, and they accept the general explanations, and seek out personally meaningful sub-explanations. Many of those sub- explanations are not congruent with reality because people are perverse, and dumb, and ill-educated, and gullible, and venal, and an enormous range of other things -- but when they are hit by a car or bit by a dog they do not rely on their incongruent sub-explanations, they go to the hospital, for example. > ... It's probably more > useful to talk about the way a particular work responds to the > condition of > postmodernity than whether a work is or is not itself postmodern. There is no "condition of postmodernity" as you've described it. Whether there is such a condition or not is still up for debate, I suppose, but your description is no different than a description of any other time's human societies. There have always been people who are gullible or venal, always people ill- and well-educated, have always been local, regional, and world celebrities in whose names the venal and the gullible meet. Saints' relics are, in fact, probably a much better example of your description of "postmodern" than imitation fire hydrants and guns. Perhaps you just have the wrong era. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 07:25:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: postmodern In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i'm not sure i consider this a productive discussion, but let me just leap in to paraphrase the allen/altman thing: with allen, we always know where the center of gravity is; it's in the allen character, if there is one, or in the main character's moral dilemmas in the serious pieces. allen is very dostoyevskian, though at times he has kafkaesque aspirations, but those ones never quite seem to get off the ground. with altman, you really can't always determine a center. it's that simple. At 6:37 AM +0000 5/27/06, steve potter wrote: >Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character >stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are >certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. > >One aspect of the "Postmodern Condition" is the loss of the reality >principle, the loss of any clear sense of the real versus the >imaginary. Some examples straight from the papers: water pistol >designed to look so much like actual pistol a kid gets shot dead by >a cop; firemen in Los Angeles wasting several minutes trying to >connect their hoses to a fire hydrant before realizing it's a movie >prop not connected to any water supply; models hired to portray >"real people" having a get together inside a model home during an >open house at a new real estate development to help lure buyers >who'd naturally want to live near such hip and attractive people; a >magnificent slight-of-hand act, that fooled the investing world >awhile, called Enron; and the ever more common Columbine to Kyle >Huff horror of desperately unhappy young men taking their video game >fantasy shoot em ups into the real world. > >Or consider how, as we progress through time and develop greater >stores of data, the time it takes to go from science fiction to >science fact gets shorter and shorter. Think how long it took from >Da Vinci's first drawing of a helicopter to the creation of an >actual working helicopter. Compare that to the much shorter amount >of time from Jules Verne's Rocket to the Moon to the Apollo program, >from "If God had intended man to fly, he'd have given us wings" to >the SST. I read that the average lifespan for a scientifically >verifiable "truth" was down to about 25 years (read it so long ago >that we're probably down to 5 or 10 years by now). The TRUTH ain't >what it used to be. There is less and less consensus reality, more >and more isolated personal reality. That is the postmodern >condition. It's probably more useful to talk about the way a >particular work responds to the condition of postmodernity than >whether a work is or is not itself postmodern. > > >steve potter > >> >>For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is not; >>Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart and >>Rumble >>Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 07:35:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20060526134528.054f1f78@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thank you, Aryanil, for your examples. I, like Mark Weiss, though, am unpersuaded. We speak of connotation and denotation in English words, and it seems to me you're speaking of some similar notions in HIndi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc. It sounds as if 'akshar' has a number of connotations in addition to its denotative meanings in context. I think it's the context that guides the audience to understand which of the various things a word can mean is meant by its use in a given example. In English there are lots of words for "horse", for example. A nag is a sort of ill-used or over-used horse; a steed is a sort of magnificent horse. So to say "The knight rode up on his nag" or "The beggar arrived on his steed" is to play significantly between denotative and connotative meanings. These sentences can really only be understood in an even larger context, the whole of the anecdote, or the tone of the tale, or the situation in which the story is being told, for example. What you're describing are the problems of translation exacerbated by the demands of bureaucracy, I think. Bureaucrats of any society are intolerant of ambiguity. The point of bureaucracy may be fairly said, I think, to try to reduce ambiguity as much as possible. Even within a single language-culture the clash between bureaucrat and poet regarding the use of language is profound. Certainly a foreign occupying bureaucrat may be somewhat less tolerant of some kinds of common social ambiguities than a same-culture bureaucrat, but in most cultures most people are facile in understanding the various uses of language. One doesn't go to the bureaucrat with poems, or to the poet with forms to be filled out. Marcus On 26 May 2006 at 13:53, Mark Weiss wrote: > This is not a syntactic change. And I'm guessing that you're vastly > exaggerating the impact of two centuries (in Bengal--a lot less > elsewhere) of British colonialism on the meanings of words. As in > all > other languages, I assume that the cluster of meanings that attaches > to a particular word in Sanskrit-derived languages changes over > time, > otherwise "silly" would still mean "innocent." It's not all > loss--some words lose no meanings, and others gain new meanings. And > some words are added, others lost entirely. > > In Spanish in the past hundred years or so there's been a > reinvestment by poets in older meanings of words--one aspect of the > neobarroco--which has greatly enriched the textures of their poetry. > They don't blame the changes in the language on this or that > hegemon, > tho. I'd guess that in the Indian case doing so is as much a > political as a linguistic statement. > > Mark > > > At 12:32 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: > >Marcus > > > >Hundreds of examples could be thrown to illustrate how external > catalysts > >change a language. It is a fascinating topic. Let me discuss one > little > >example here - > > > >Most Indian language (Hindi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc.) > words > >derived from Sanskrit historically held more than one meaning; in > many cases > >several. Because of a verb-based semantic structure, each word is > derived > >from a root-word (verb). The root-word does not have a specific > meaning, but > >like color in a painting, it has an impression, a flavor, often > signifies > >an action. > > > >Take for example the word "akshar". This word exists today in many > Indian > >languages. It means "letter" , sometimes "digit". The word is > derived from > >the sanskrit root-word "ash" which holds a quality of dynamism. The > word > >"ashwa" meaning "horse" is derived from the same root word. > > > >A "letter" is used to create a word, words create a sentence, > sentences make > >a text ...and so on. So at the elementary core of language is a > letter, a > >nuclear being, which was meant to be dynamic, mobile. We say - > "language > >flows". That sense was captured by the root-word which was in use > in ancient > >India thousands of years back. In ancient Indian societies "akshar" > meant a > >lot of things, like something "mobile", different life-forms etc. > It also > >meant "letter". What captures motion in nature ? The eye. Hence, > the word > >"akshi" meaning "eye" was also derived from the same root-word. > > > >Under colonial rule (British), a direct cultural clash resulted > between > >language traditions and when colonial powers dominate, their > language > >begins to dominate too. A language that had both verbal power and > mysticism > >in its womb soon had to be aborted. Specific meanings had to be > culled from > >each word. Colonial language coerced all major vernacular languages > to set > >up a word-for-word correspondence to make effective communication > made > >possible "their" way. In the process, words soon became barren - > they were > >made to hold a singular meaning. The rest was considered > "abscess". > > > >Today, the word "akshar" just means "letter". In fact, it has fewer > meaning > >and usage than the english word "letter" might have. "Akshi" is an > old > >fashioned word; for example, it is considered archaic to use this > word to > >mean 'eye" in an Indian poem today. > > > >Some "Post-modern" Indian poets are thus talking about resuming > this > >"backward journey" - back to those words that felt like bee-hives, > that had > >more meaning, more weight, more honey and more buzz. But then, > colonial > >opression still continues in the language domain - so I'm not sure > how > >the revival would be made possible. > > > >Aryanil > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > >Behalf Of Marcus Bales > >Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:21 AM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > > > >Examples? > > > >M > > > >On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > > Gregory > > > > > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can > see, > > > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and > semantics > > > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed > vernacular > > > languages. > > > > > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most > > > widely > > > spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, > that > > > is > > > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from > > > Sanskrit > > > which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite > different > > > from > > > western languages. > > > > > > Aryanil > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > > Behalf Of St. Thomasino > > > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: postmodern poetry > > > > > > ` > > > > > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > > > ` > > > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed > > > post-modern > > > art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of > > > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, > but > > > much of > > > that > > > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is > > > museumified > > > to a great extent. > > > > > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, > Indonesia, > > > the > > > West > > > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry > has > > > picked > > > up an > > > > > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying > sort > > > of > > > a > > > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in > time, > > > making > > > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from > the > > > language > > > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, > nature. > > > > > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against > > > "globalization", > > > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist > > > theory > > > and > > > local practise.' > > > ` > > > ` > > > > > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language > > > rules of the vernacular.' > > > ` > > > Thanks. > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > ` > > > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > > > ` > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 08:05:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodern In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:37 AM 5/27/2006, you wrote: >Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character >stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are >certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. Allen was self-consciously using a common trope of silent films (most famously in Buster Keaton, but it was already old when he got to it). You want "postmodern" confusion of reality and fiction? Check out Georges Melies, who made films from about 1900 to 1913. A great imp[act of film was precisely the confusion of reality and fiction. Famously, the first closeup, appended to The Great Train Robbery, caused theaters to dissolve into panic--a bad guy raising his pistol and firing towards the audience. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:17:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: A<44780147.17066.FCE2357@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcus & Mark I think I have failed to explain myself. Or there is some resistance to accepting my stance that colonialization has often negatively impacted vernacular languages. I didn't attempt to refer to connotations. I am refering to single words that house many meanings. Distinctive meaning, not connotation. Of course the usage determines which of these many meanings are intended. Sometimes the same sentence, if used craftily, could mean more than one thing - shades of meaning that could be sometimes close but not necessarily always. Take for example, English words like "row" or "swallow" which could be used to mean several things. The bird "swallow", the gobble "swallow", the mumbling "swallow" etc. Now, imagine we begin to use the word "swallow" to mean just the bird. The word soon gets stripped off its other meanings. Its other usages. Don't you think that impoverishes the language ? Likewise, as you try to see beyond the word, you'll soon notice, that certain "modes of writing" start falling off the language while certain other modes begin to dominate. Its not a bureaucratic issue, neither is it an issue with translatability. It is about colonial influence and I don't think that has happened in India alone. I'm only trying to describe the effect on Indian languages. Your example of "horse" is not exactly a fitting parallel of what I'm trying to describe. Here are a few other examples that might be able to prove how colonial cultural exposure changes the "modes" of vernacular writing. 1. The "novel" form or the modern day narrative, did not exist in ancient Indian texts. Poetic forms were more prevalent. When British East India Company began to expand territorial rule, they realized they need the natives to participate in local administration. The structure of the society soon began to change around these "jobs". The so-called "babu" middle-class evolved, they began to learn English. The natives of Calcutta (now Kolkata) and Madras (now Chennai) responded promptly. A nouveau, bilingual Indian middle-class intelligentsia evolved. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, a Bengali author, wrote, what is called the first Indian "novel" in early nineteenth century during the Bengal Renaissance. It is no secret that there was a strong influence of Sir Walter Scott on his work. A shift soon began, written language gradually moved away from the poetic forms to a more prosaic structure. The syntactical transformations in the language, that I have mentioned before, started to be become more apparent. 2. Forget British influence for a few minutes. English, in India at least, over the last two decades is an American language. The American idiom is all over the place. I am not arguing that is "bad influence". But at times the influence is very pleasant. Lets take the word "skyscraper". A quarter century back, when I was in high-school, we used a Bengali word to mean "skyscraper". That word, if directly translated back into english would sound "sky-toucher". That word is rarely used these days. An exact Bengali translation of "skyscraper" is in place. If you ask me, "scraping the sky" appears to be a little less contrived than "touching the sky", which hints at a lot more than "scraping". "Touching" is a more genteel action than "scraping" anyway. 3. There is a word in Hindi (also used in Bengali occassionally) for man/person - Admi. A man-eater tiger is called "Adamkhor". There were many other sanskrit derived (tatsama) words that were/are used to mean a "man" or a "person". A pretty popular word was (which is still used in Bengali/Hindi spheres) "lok". The word "lok" has the following meanings - a) person b) man c) space d) area e) community However, with the advent of the British, the word "Admi" became a more frequent substitute to mean "man" or "person". It does not carry any other meaning or connotation. The word "Admi", is a phonetic aberration of "Adam". Societies change with the passage of time, rivers shrink or widen, cells mutate transitively, animals adapt and no wonder language changes too, some die (like sanskrit) while others are born (ebonics/esperanto/jharkhandi). We all know that. I was trying to show you how colonial influence changes a language, at times by hollowing out rich overflowing canals and discarding them as "abscess". Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:36 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: postmodern poetry Thank you, Aryanil, for your examples. I, like Mark Weiss, though, am unpersuaded. We speak of connotation and denotation in English words, and it seems to me you're speaking of some similar notions in HIndi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc. It sounds as if 'akshar' has a number of connotations in addition to its denotative meanings in context. I think it's the context that guides the audience to understand which of the various things a word can mean is meant by its use in a given example. In English there are lots of words for "horse", for example. A nag is a sort of ill-used or over-used horse; a steed is a sort of magnificent horse. So to say "The knight rode up on his nag" or "The beggar arrived on his steed" is to play significantly between denotative and connotative meanings. These sentences can really only be understood in an even larger context, the whole of the anecdote, or the tone of the tale, or the situation in which the story is being told, for example. What you're describing are the problems of translation exacerbated by the demands of bureaucracy, I think. Bureaucrats of any society are intolerant of ambiguity. The point of bureaucracy may be fairly said, I think, to try to reduce ambiguity as much as possible. Even within a single language-culture the clash between bureaucrat and poet regarding the use of language is profound. Certainly a foreign occupying bureaucrat may be somewhat less tolerant of some kinds of common social ambiguities than a same-culture bureaucrat, but in most cultures most people are facile in understanding the various uses of language. One doesn't go to the bureaucrat with poems, or to the poet with forms to be filled out. Marcus On 26 May 2006 at 13:53, Mark Weiss wrote: > This is not a syntactic change. And I'm guessing that you're vastly > exaggerating the impact of two centuries (in Bengal--a lot less > elsewhere) of British colonialism on the meanings of words. As in > all > other languages, I assume that the cluster of meanings that attaches > to a particular word in Sanskrit-derived languages changes over > time, > otherwise "silly" would still mean "innocent." It's not all > loss--some words lose no meanings, and others gain new meanings. And > some words are added, others lost entirely. > > In Spanish in the past hundred years or so there's been a > reinvestment by poets in older meanings of words--one aspect of the > neobarroco--which has greatly enriched the textures of their poetry. > They don't blame the changes in the language on this or that > hegemon, > tho. I'd guess that in the Indian case doing so is as much a > political as a linguistic statement. > > Mark > > > At 12:32 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: > >Marcus > > > >Hundreds of examples could be thrown to illustrate how external > catalysts > >change a language. It is a fascinating topic. Let me discuss one > little > >example here - > > > >Most Indian language (Hindi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc.) > words > >derived from Sanskrit historically held more than one meaning; in > many cases > >several. Because of a verb-based semantic structure, each word is > derived > >from a root-word (verb). The root-word does not have a specific > meaning, but > >like color in a painting, it has an impression, a flavor, often > signifies > >an action. > > > >Take for example the word "akshar". This word exists today in many > Indian > >languages. It means "letter" , sometimes "digit". The word is > derived from > >the sanskrit root-word "ash" which holds a quality of dynamism. The > word > >"ashwa" meaning "horse" is derived from the same root word. > > > >A "letter" is used to create a word, words create a sentence, > sentences make > >a text ...and so on. So at the elementary core of language is a > letter, a > >nuclear being, which was meant to be dynamic, mobile. We say - > "language > >flows". That sense was captured by the root-word which was in use > in ancient > >India thousands of years back. In ancient Indian societies "akshar" > meant a > >lot of things, like something "mobile", different life-forms etc. > It also > >meant "letter". What captures motion in nature ? The eye. Hence, > the word > >"akshi" meaning "eye" was also derived from the same root-word. > > > >Under colonial rule (British), a direct cultural clash resulted > between > >language traditions and when colonial powers dominate, their > language > >begins to dominate too. A language that had both verbal power and > mysticism > >in its womb soon had to be aborted. Specific meanings had to be > culled from > >each word. Colonial language coerced all major vernacular languages > to set > >up a word-for-word correspondence to make effective communication > made > >possible "their" way. In the process, words soon became barren - > they were > >made to hold a singular meaning. The rest was considered > "abscess". > > > >Today, the word "akshar" just means "letter". In fact, it has fewer > meaning > >and usage than the english word "letter" might have. "Akshi" is an > old > >fashioned word; for example, it is considered archaic to use this > word to > >mean 'eye" in an Indian poem today. > > > >Some "Post-modern" Indian poets are thus talking about resuming > this > >"backward journey" - back to those words that felt like bee-hives, > that had > >more meaning, more weight, more honey and more buzz. But then, > colonial > >opression still continues in the language domain - so I'm not sure > how > >the revival would be made possible. > > > >Aryanil > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > >Behalf Of Marcus Bales > >Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:21 AM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > > > >Examples? > > > >M > > > >On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > > Gregory > > > > > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can > see, > > > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and > semantics > > > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed > vernacular > > > languages. > > > > > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most > > > widely > > > spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, > that > > > is > > > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from > > > Sanskrit > > > which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite > different > > > from > > > western languages. > > > > > > Aryanil > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > > Behalf Of St. Thomasino > > > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: postmodern poetry > > > > > > ` > > > > > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > > > ` > > > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed > > > post-modern > > > art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of > > > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, > but > > > much of > > > that > > > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is > > > museumified > > > to a great extent. > > > > > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, > Indonesia, > > > the > > > West > > > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry > has > > > picked > > > up an > > > > > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying > sort > > > of > > > a > > > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in > time, > > > making > > > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from > the > > > language > > > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, > nature. > > > > > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against > > > "globalization", > > > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist > > > theory > > > and > > > local practise.' > > > ` > > > ` > > > > > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language > > > rules of the vernacular.' > > > ` > > > Thanks. > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > ` > > > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > > > ` > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:30:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: OlsonNow Updates Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Papers and comments are trickling in from OlsonNow at MIT last weekend. On the blog: Ben Friedlander's opening statement from the forum A note from Peter Romanow http://olsonnow.blogspot.com/ On the docs page: Coming soon... Danuta Borchardt/Cranberry Juice in a Glass: Based on a few events =20 from Charles Olson=92s life in Gloucester, Massachusetts http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/olson/blog/ If anyone was at the MIT event and would like to write a scene report =20= to put on the blog, I'd be much obliged, as I was here in Buffalo =20 celebrating Olson's compadre, Robert Creeley, and couldn't make it. Send reports, papers, etc. to olsonnow@gmail.com Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 07:32:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: postmodern In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Modernism = Colonialism (inclusivism)= control from the Center Postmodern = Emigrant (pluralism/diaspora) = no central control Just a thought. Stephen http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Currently home of the Tenderly series, A serial work in progress. > i'm not sure i consider this a productive discussion, but let me just > leap in to paraphrase the allen/altman thing: with allen, we always > know where the center of gravity is; it's in the allen character, if > there is one, or in the main character's moral dilemmas in the > serious pieces. allen is very dostoyevskian, though at times he has > kafkaesque aspirations, but those ones never quite seem to get off > the ground. with altman, you really can't always determine a center. > it's that simple. > > At 6:37 AM +0000 5/27/06, steve potter wrote: >> Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character >> stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are >> certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. >> >> One aspect of the "Postmodern Condition" is the loss of the reality >> principle, the loss of any clear sense of the real versus the >> imaginary. Some examples straight from the papers: water pistol >> designed to look so much like actual pistol a kid gets shot dead by >> a cop; firemen in Los Angeles wasting several minutes trying to >> connect their hoses to a fire hydrant before realizing it's a movie >> prop not connected to any water supply; models hired to portray >> "real people" having a get together inside a model home during an >> open house at a new real estate development to help lure buyers >> who'd naturally want to live near such hip and attractive people; a >> magnificent slight-of-hand act, that fooled the investing world >> awhile, called Enron; and the ever more common Columbine to Kyle >> Huff horror of desperately unhappy young men taking their video game >> fantasy shoot em ups into the real world. >> >> Or consider how, as we progress through time and develop greater >> stores of data, the time it takes to go from science fiction to >> science fact gets shorter and shorter. Think how long it took from >> Da Vinci's first drawing of a helicopter to the creation of an >> actual working helicopter. Compare that to the much shorter amount >> of time from Jules Verne's Rocket to the Moon to the Apollo program, >> from "If God had intended man to fly, he'd have given us wings" to >> the SST. I read that the average lifespan for a scientifically >> verifiable "truth" was down to about 25 years (read it so long ago >> that we're probably down to 5 or 10 years by now). The TRUTH ain't >> what it used to be. There is less and less consensus reality, more >> and more isolated personal reality. That is the postmodern >> condition. It's probably more useful to talk about the way a >> particular work responds to the condition of postmodernity than >> whether a work is or is not itself postmodern. >> >> >> steve potter >> >>> >>> For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is not; >>> Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart and >>> Rumble >>> Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 11:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: postmodern In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed where ever you are there is central control: the police the leading economic interests (whether local or globalized corporate ones) to move from one place to another is to exchange these; one place may be less repressive than another, --still, everywhere these are control systems at the center of daily life "almost every desire of a poor person is a criminal offense" >From: Stephen Vincent >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: postmodern >Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 07:32:42 -0700 > >Modernism = Colonialism (inclusivism)= control from the Center >Postmodern = Emigrant (pluralism/diaspora) = no central control > >Just a thought. > >Stephen >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >Currently home of the Tenderly series, >A serial work in progress. > > > > > > i'm not sure i consider this a productive discussion, but let me just > > leap in to paraphrase the allen/altman thing: with allen, we always > > know where the center of gravity is; it's in the allen character, if > > there is one, or in the main character's moral dilemmas in the > > serious pieces. allen is very dostoyevskian, though at times he has > > kafkaesque aspirations, but those ones never quite seem to get off > > the ground. with altman, you really can't always determine a center. > > it's that simple. > > > > At 6:37 AM +0000 5/27/06, steve potter wrote: > >> Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character > >> stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are > >> certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. > >> > >> One aspect of the "Postmodern Condition" is the loss of the reality > >> principle, the loss of any clear sense of the real versus the > >> imaginary. Some examples straight from the papers: water pistol > >> designed to look so much like actual pistol a kid gets shot dead by > >> a cop; firemen in Los Angeles wasting several minutes trying to > >> connect their hoses to a fire hydrant before realizing it's a movie > >> prop not connected to any water supply; models hired to portray > >> "real people" having a get together inside a model home during an > >> open house at a new real estate development to help lure buyers > >> who'd naturally want to live near such hip and attractive people; a > >> magnificent slight-of-hand act, that fooled the investing world > >> awhile, called Enron; and the ever more common Columbine to Kyle > >> Huff horror of desperately unhappy young men taking their video game > >> fantasy shoot em ups into the real world. > >> > >> Or consider how, as we progress through time and develop greater > >> stores of data, the time it takes to go from science fiction to > >> science fact gets shorter and shorter. Think how long it took from > >> Da Vinci's first drawing of a helicopter to the creation of an > >> actual working helicopter. Compare that to the much shorter amount > >> of time from Jules Verne's Rocket to the Moon to the Apollo program, > >> from "If God had intended man to fly, he'd have given us wings" to > >> the SST. I read that the average lifespan for a scientifically > >> verifiable "truth" was down to about 25 years (read it so long ago > >> that we're probably down to 5 or 10 years by now). The TRUTH ain't > >> what it used to be. There is less and less consensus reality, more > >> and more isolated personal reality. That is the postmodern > >> condition. It's probably more useful to talk about the way a > >> particular work responds to the condition of postmodernity than > >> whether a work is or is not itself postmodern. > >> > >> > >> steve potter > >> > >>> > >>> For instance, in movies, Robert Altman is postmodern, Woody Allen is >not; > >>> Tarantino is postmodern, Scorcese is not. Coppola's One from the Heart >and > >>> Rumble > >>> Fish are postmodern, Godfather I and II are not. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 15:07:12 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: 2 book fairs + a reading Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT some upcoming events ill be participating in/organizing, etc. over the next few weeks.... 1) the toronto small press book fair, June 3rd, 11am-5pm at Trinity-St Paul's Centre, 427 Bloor Street W, Toronto http://www.torontosmallpressbookfair.org/ 2) im reading at the Art Bar Reading Series, June 6th, with Rhea Tregebov & Mike Freeman, 8pm at the Victory Cafe, 581 Markham Street, Toronto http://www.artbar.org/ 3) The Factory Reading Series, June 8th, 7pm; The Ottawa Art Gallery, Ottawa; lovingly hosted by rob mclennan; readings by Margaret Christakos, Leanne Averbach, bill bissett & Max Middle http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2006/05/factory-reading-series-league-of.html 4) The League of Canadian Poets AGM, June 9-11, Ottawa http://www.poets.ca/linktext/agm/index.htm 5) the ottawa small press book fair, June 17th, Jack Purcell Community Centre, Elgin Street at Jack Purcell Lane, Ottawa; noon to 5pm http://ottawapoetry.blogspot.com/2006/03/ottawa-small-press-book-fair-spring.html isnt that enough? other updates of various things at the usual place: www.robmclennan.blogspot.com -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...11th coll'n - name , an errant (Stride, UK) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 16:07:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Kimmelman Reading in Manhattan and Hoboken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burt Kimmelman will be reading new work (with perhaps a few oldies thrown in) on June 9th and June 15th at one of the two bookstores listed below (times and locations shown there). All are welcome! Upcoming Poetry Readings by Burt Kimmelman: Symposia Bookstore, June 9th, 8 PM Symposia Bookstore 510 Washington Street (near Fifth Street) Hoboken, NJ 07030 201- 963-0909 info@symposia.us See: http://www.symposia.us/ And see: http://symposia.us/article.php?id=35 Morningside Books, June 15th, 7 PM Morningside Books 2915 Broadway (at 114th Street) New York City, New York 10025 (Yahoo! Maps, Google Maps) Phone: (212) 222-3350 Peter@MorningsideBookshop.com See: http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/34291293 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 16:17:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recommend a recent book by Thomas McEvilley, who has recently become the chair of the School of Visual Art's program in critical writing: *The Triumph of Anti-Art: Conceptual & Performance Art in the Formation of Post-Modernism* Documentext: McPherson & Company, New York, 2005. Also, Aryanil's etymologies are all popular but false etymologies [call them folk etymologies]. 1. akshara = 'unending' > 'syllable' > 'letter'. It is an early name of the sacred syllable OM. It has nothing to do with 2. ashva = 'horse' cognate with Lat. 'equus', Greek 'hippos', etc. It has nothing to do with 3. akshi = 'eye', cognate with Lat. 'oculis', Greek 'ossa', German 'Auge', Eng. 'eye'. Aryanil's etymologies are 'postmodern' insofar as they are word-play, and maybe also insofar as they have no historical basis. Anyway, McEvilley is an advocate for post modernism. Might as well get a definition from an advocate. Best wishes, George Thompson [Sanskritist] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 16:36:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: A<4478B3C5.8070002@adelphia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also, Aryanil's etymologies are all popular but false etymologies [call them folk etymologies]. 1. akshara = 'unending' > 'syllable' > 'letter'. It is an early name of the sacred syllable OM. It has nothing to do with 2. ashva = 'horse' cognate with Lat. 'equus', Greek 'hippos', etc. It has nothing to do with 3. akshi = 'eye', cognate with Lat. 'oculis', Greek 'ossa', German 'Auge', Eng. 'eye'. Aryanil's etymologies are 'postmodern' insofar as they are word-play, and maybe also insofar as they have no historical basis. Anyway, McEvilley is an advocate for post modernism. Might as well get a definition from an advocate. Best wishes, George Thompson [Sanskritist] ========================================================================== I can refer to several scholarly articles by P.C.Sen, Kalim Khan, Sukumar Sen et al, if you could read them in Bengali. "akshara", "akshi" "ashva" are all derived from "ash" dhaatu. Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:07:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <4478B3C5.8070002@adelphia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *Dear Aryanil, I can refer to several etymological dictionaries of Old Indo-Aryan in German and French, as well as dictionaries of Proto-Indo-European in German, French, Russian, Italian and English, if you could read them. What you have in these Bengali sources is an old folk etymology. If you are serious about looking into this, check out this article, an old classic: "The etymologies in the ancient Indian Brahmanas" by Jan Gonda, in *Lingua* 5, 1955. You should stick with the poetics. Avoid the etymologies. George * ========================================================================== I can refer to several scholarly articles by P.C.Sen, Kalim Khan, Sukumar Sen et al, if you could read them in Bengali. "akshara", "akshi" "ashva" are all derived from "ash" dhaatu. Aryanil > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 17:19:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Kimmelman Reading in Manhattan and Hoboken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good luck. Karen and I will be on the plane to Turkey. Best, Murat In a message dated 5/27/06 4:06:54 PM, kimmelman@NJIT.EDU writes: > Burt Kimmelman will be reading new work (with perhaps a few oldies thrown > in) on June 9th and June 15th at one of the two bookstores listed below > (times and locations shown there). > > All are welcome! > > > Upcoming Poetry Readings by Burt Kimmelman: > > > Symposia Bookstore, June 9th, 8 PM > > Symposia Bookstore > 510 Washington Street (near Fifth Street) > Hoboken, NJ 07030 > 201- 963-0909 > info@symposia.us > > See: http://www.symposia.us/ > > And see: http://symposia.us/article.php?id=35 > > > > Morningside Books, June 15th, 7 PM > > Morningside Books > 2915 Broadway (at 114th Street) > New York City, New York 10025 (Yahoo! Maps, Google Maps) > Phone: (212) 222-3350 > Peter@MorningsideBookshop.com > > See: http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/34291293 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 14:29:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Kimmelman Reading in Manhattan and Hoboken MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bon voyage ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:19 PM Subject: Re: Kimmelman Reading in Manhattan and Hoboken > Good luck. > > Karen and I will be on the plane to Turkey. > > Best, > > Murat > > > In a message dated 5/27/06 4:06:54 PM, kimmelman@NJIT.EDU writes: > > >> Burt Kimmelman will be reading new work (with perhaps a few oldies thrown >> in) on June 9th and June 15th at one of the two bookstores listed below >> (times and locations shown there). >> >> All are welcome! >> >> >> Upcoming Poetry Readings by Burt Kimmelman: >> >> >> Symposia Bookstore, June 9th, 8 PM >> >> Symposia Bookstore >> 510 Washington Street (near Fifth Street) >> Hoboken, NJ 07030 >> 201- 963-0909 >> info@symposia.us >> >> See: http://www.symposia.us/ >> >> And see: http://symposia.us/article.php?id=35 >> >> >> >> Morningside Books, June 15th, 7 PM >> >> Morningside Books >> 2915 Broadway (at 114th Street) >> New York City, New York 10025 (Yahoo! Maps, Google Maps) >> Phone: (212) 222-3350 >> Peter@MorningsideBookshop.com >> >> See: http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/34291293 >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 14:59:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Physician as Poet" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My review of "The Physician as Poet," my review of Seattle physician = Peter Pereira's book of poems, has just been published in the = peer-reviewed, on-line Journal of Philosophy, Ethics, and Humanities in = Medicine. The Provisional PDF can be read at: http://www.peh-med.com/ -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 18:56:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: need bill luoma and douglas rothschild email addresses Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit please backchannel. thanks, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 21:03:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Last Call: Advertise in Boog City 34** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit please forward --------------- Advertise in: Boog City 34 --Thurs. June 1-Ad and Ad Copy to Editor Email to reserve ad space on or by Tues. May 30. 2,000 issues are distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village and Williamsburg, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 19:44:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Physician as Poet" (Sorry for typo before) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The Physician as Poet," my review of Seattle physician Peter = Pereira's book of poems, "Saying the World," has just been published in = the peer-reviewed, on-line Journal of Philosophy, Ethics, and Humanities = in Medicine. The Provisional PDF can be read at: http://www.peh-med.com/ -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:20:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: rhubarb is susan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi all -- Four new things up at rhubarb this week. Two gossipy pieces on Jorie and Flarf: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/theres-interesting-exchange-over-at.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/remarks-on-flarf.html and two reviews, of Maggie Dietz and Aaron McCollough: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/maggie-dietz-prayer-to-suicide.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/05/aaron-mccollough-third-poem-of-jan.html Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget -- if you use things like google or yahoo for your mail, you can now "subscribe" to rhubarb to be alerted when new things go live: feed://feeds.feedburner.com/rhubarb Yours, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 00:32:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: postmodern MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/27/06 10:31:53 AM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > Modernism =3D Colonialism (inclusivism)=3D control from the Center > Postmodern =3D Emigrant (pluralism/diaspora) =3D no central control >=20 > Just a thought. >=20 > Stephen > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Currently home of the Tenderly series, > A serial work in progress. >=20 lso, global, capitalist, hellenistic. As in Hellenism, the rising,=20 counterbalancing primacy of "ideas." On the commercial level, ideas are logo= s, images.=20 On the countervailing, intellectual level, this means the subtle undermining= of=20 empirical thought, into ideas. That's why, perhaps, folk ethymologies are=20 significant. They are part of the myth/story creation of individual cultures= , in=20 words. Tarantino, if one notices, is full of ikons, historical/stylistic gestures.=20 Altman often moves his camera on a poster (for instance, of a crime movie wh= en=20 the film itself is about a murder threat in a movie studio), on a Godiva=20 chocolate sign (when Goldie Hawn is running naked in a mall), on entertainme= nt=20 personalities in their "real" (meaning stage) names. Or that great menacing=20= moment=20 in "The Company" when the ballet is being performed under "real" rain. (It=20 would be interesting to compare it to the Gene Kally scene in "Singin in the= =20 Rain," one of the precursor films of post-modern cinema, silence, the eye, a= nd=20 sound). "One from the Heart" is another prophetic precursor -Las Vegas is tu= rned=20 totally into stage set, a dream house of "signs," through which the camera=20 soulfully moves and Tom Waits and Krystal Gale sing. When Charles uses same word -as verb and adverb- in the same line, and he=20 repeats the gesture all the way through, he is creating a post-modern poem. One sees almost never such awareness in Scorcese. If he uses "outside"=20 material, he is totally blind=A0 to its "plastic" or material reality (indep= endance)=20 and consequently -since "goodfellas"- of film as a medium. His concept of "a= rt"=20 is 19th century romantic ("genius"). In "Gangs of New York," a movie based o= n=20 two sources amazing in documantation, "Gangs of New York" and "Low Life,"=20 Scorcese completely ignores the factual treasure house these books are and=20 invents a "cave" structure under New York and a tribal war originating from=20= Europe.=20 His decision to ignore the trivia materials of daily life (newspaper=20 headlines, photographs, neon signs in One from the Heart), focusing on the "= big=20 picture," is catastrophic for Scorcese's movie. To see why is directly conne= cted to=20 the creative impulse behind postmodernism. In the movie, the final "tribal"=20 show down coincides exactly with the historical, Civil War draft riots. By t= hat=20 time, Scorcese has run out of time. He doesn't know what to do with the riot= s.=20 He just shows a rich man's house being attacked. The effect, to put it kindl= y,=20 is farcical. Woody Allen, for me, lacks the "blithe gesture towards the other," though=20 superficially he has many stylistic elements associated with the post-modern= . One=20 can not be, in my view, post-modern by continually turning within an=20 ingratiating sweetness of your social circle. The camera tracks Woody Allen=20= running=20 from one side of Manhattan to another. In Short Cuts, Altman's camera tracks= =20 through social strata (though not necessarily as successful in each part). O= ne=20 feels the openess in ones bones, the global nature of the sensibility. That=20 movement, motion -idea as motion- is at heart of the postmodern, it seems to= me. Ciao, Murat=A0=A0 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 01:14:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: TbT HIMALAYA and SMURFLAND NEWS--ALEX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am sleeping on a cold, wet floor in Himalaya. It is a very real life, as Creeley would've said. Days on wearing a wet t-shirt and having joints well exposes, if even under a soaked comforter makes the skin on one's back tingle, itch and burn, as if being bitten by thousands of gnats. We paid our friend's apartment overdue. We moved him out today and paid 3 months on a clean place, free of all the donkey shit, rubbish, spiders half the size of a hand, into what is a clean cottage, communal, where monks are living. I will start worked at the monestary on Monday. The writing is going well and have organized some cooperative among the writers. Beijing School... I will also read tomorrow evening. For those of who are Americans, it is this idea of individualism, the considerate basis of liberty, and the fate of all those injuns who are at best mestizos--or mickey house and indianhead dollars. This is real, dangerous, and some one's got to stand up, push aside all that fascade, and stop: "doing little more then staking out and defending one's insular existence." page1-- aj --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 13:05:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve potter Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 26 May 2006 to 27 May 2006 (#2006-148) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I agree, Maria, that Altman, with his 'lack of center' ensemble casts and multiple plot lines, is overall more postmodern than Allen and was only suggesting that there are postmodern moments in Allen as well. Problem, of course, is that a work can be "postmodern" in many different ways because postmodern has been defined so broadly and vaguely that it's not especially useful. Also agree that this is likely not a productive discussion...... Steve > At 07:25:23 -0500 on Sat, 27 May 2006 Maria Damon wrote: > >i'm not sure i consider this a productive discussion, but let me just >leap in to paraphrase the allen/altman thing: with allen, we always >know where the center of gravity is; it's in the allen character, if >there is one, or in the main character's moral dilemmas in the >serious pieces. allen is very dostoyevskian, though at times he has >kafkaesque aspirations, but those ones never quite seem to get off >the ground. with altman, you really can't always determine a center. >it's that simple. > >At 6:37 AM +0000 5/27/06, steve potter wrote: > >Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character > >stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are > >certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 13:34:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve potter Subject: postmodernisn't In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks Mark. Have read some about Melies but haven't seen any of his work yet. The Purple Rose of Cairo is "postmodern" in the way that Robert Coover's stories, in which cartoon characters share the same world as "real" fictional people, are. But, as you point out, that trope (like so much labeled "postmodern") dates well back into the "modernist" period. steve > At 08:05 on Sat, 27 May 2006 Mark Weiss wrote: >At 02:37 AM 5/27/2006, you wrote: > >Woody Allen's "Purple Rose of Cairo" (with its movie character > >stepping off screen into "real life") and "Stardust Memories" are > >certainly as postmodern as anything in Altman. > >Allen was self-consciously using a common trope of silent films (most >famously in Buster Keaton, but it was already old when he got to it). > >You want "postmodern" confusion of reality and fiction? Check out >Georges Melies, who made films from about 1900 to 1913. > >A great imp[act of film was precisely the confusion of reality and >fiction. Famously, the first closeup, appended to The Great Train >Robbery, caused theaters to dissolve into panic--a bad guy raising >his pistol and firing towards the audience. > >Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 09:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beard of Bees Press is pleased to announce the publication of _Post-Happenings_ by David Huntsperger. Using text from the prose of Stephen Crane and from contemporary advertising placards, these poems make our time relevant to Crane's socially orientated prose. http://www.beardofbees.com/huntsperger.html Yours, Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 11:36:46 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: raza educators MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit v From: "Ebustill@aol.com" Ebustill@aol.com Date: Sun May 28, 2006 8:03am(PDT) Subject: raza educators Please disseminate to Raza interested in the question of Education --------------------------------------------------------------------- Bulletin/Announcement May 2006 In Unity There Is Strength Join The Association of Raza Educators (ARE) Consider the following: 1. Bilingual Education has been virtually destroyed. It fact, it was never given a chance to succeed. 2. Raza Studies and Multicultural Studies, in the great majority of the schools, no longer exist. Educators who favor a multiculturalist, working class based education, are under constant attack. 3. Critical Pedagogy is a thing of the past, and most teachers, as well as administrators, don't even know what it is. 4. The English Only movement is getting stronger. Educators are told not to speak Spanish to students. Speaking Spanish will soon be a crime. 5. Visual and Performing Arts (VAPA) is being eliminated, specially where Mexican-Latino and African American students are in the majority. 6. Academic Freedom is a thing of the past. Most teachers are scared to speak out. Teachers are being forced to use materials, limit their curriculum to a particular area of study, and utilize methods of instruction created (and promoted) by people who do not have the well being of our students in mind. 7. School administrators have rejected a space for alternative or creative methods of teaching and are demanding that educators teach to the test, or instruct in robotic, same shoe fits ALL approach. 8. Administrators are now dictators not educators, or have become enforcers and thugs for the racist-fascist boards of education or of the federal government. Questions for us: 1. What are we going to do when we attempt to include multicultural and critical pedagogy into our curriculum and are told by the administration not to do so? 2. Are we going to enforce the English Only laws or turn in our students who don't have documents to the Border Patrol? Our we going to be accomplices in the denying of education to children? 3. What are we going to do when our school administrators start harassing or move to fire us for refusing to betray our students, or when we teach in a fashion or use content that we feel (as professionals and Raza) would most benefit our students? 4. What should be more important to us, the education of our students, our dignity as a people, or our jobs? Answer: 1. The truth is that no progressive change ever come about without struggle. Educators must unite and struggle for what is right. 2. History has proven, that in numbers and in unity there is strength. If you want to protect yourself against harassment and reprisals, you must unite with other educators who share the same ideas or objectives as you. 3. Simply complaining or living in fear, or denying the realities around us, are not virtues of an educator. Our profession demands that we do something concrete about problems affecting our students and our communities. Join the Association of Raza Educators (ARE). Attend the next ARE meeting. Friday, June 2, 2006 at 4 PM Salazar's Mexican Restaurant 15th and Market Street San Diego (near downtown). ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 13:03:46 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Repressive Police State Tactics Are Nothing New MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/50159.php Repressive Police State Tactics Are Nothing New ... Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. ... Repressive Police State Tactics Are Nothing New *From the Ramparts* Junious Ricardo Stanton *Repressive US Police State Tactics Are Nothing New * /"This activity led the CIA to establish proprietary companies, fronts, and covers for its domestic operations. So widespread did they become that President Johnson allowed the then CIA Director, John McCone, to create in 1964 a new super-secret branch called the Domestic Operations Division (DOD), the very title of which mocked the explicit intent of Congress to prohibit CIA operations inside the U.S. This disdain for Congress permeated the upper echelons of the CIA. Congress could not hinder or regulate something it did not know about, and neither the President nor the Director of the CIA was about to tell them. Neither was J. Edgar Hoover, even though he was generally aware that the CIA was moving in on what was supposed to be exclusive FBI turf." / Domestic Surveillance: The History of Operation CHAOS by Verne Lyon Covert Action Information Bulletin, Summer 1990 Most of us are familiar with the FBI's infamous Counter Intelligence Program known as COINTELPRO that was a major component of the illegal activities and egregious abuses during the 1960's and beyond. What many are not aware of is the fact the US government has engaged in domestic surveillance, spying, disruption, repression and murder since day one. Their first targets were dissident whites, Native Americans and Africans during the nation's infancy. As the nation grew the ruling elites feared the masses might one day wake up to what they were doing to them, so they kept a tight reign on them and monitored them lest threats to their predatory and exploitative capitalist system crop up. The key to success for the ruling elites was cheap labor. To secure it, they first attempted to enslave the Native American population while at the same time clearing and expropriating their lands. The Europeans' attempts to enslave the so called "Indians" failed miserably so they turned to importing whites to serve as indentured servants and when that did not work out well, to importing kidnaped Africans. They kept the Africans under constant surveillance and formulated extensive slave codes and spy networks to prevent insurrections, uprisings and mass escapes. Following the Civil War, the US elites recruited more Europeans to immigrate into this country to counterbalance the growing population of Africans in AmeriKKKa and help with the imperialist expansion into the West. It was only natural the whites who came would chafe at their working conditions, lowly status and they attempted to organize to challenge the exploitation they experienced. This lead to serious and often violent confrontations. The owners and their managers were pitted against the laborers. The capitalists called on the government (police, militia and courts) and they intervened on the side of the owners. By the late 1800's labor strife was the norm and the state forces almost always sided with owner class in numerous violent confrontations. The federal and local governments kept an eye on what their propagandists called "radicals and anarchists" and waged out and out war on labor organizers (mine and railroad workers). Coming into the early twentieth century the federal government spied on blacks, the fledgling labor movement and the new radicals called "communists". WWI ushered in repression and spying under the aegis of "national security" (the Palmer Raids), by WWII John Edgar Hoover and the military were in full stride; spying on AmeriKKKans with impunity. Following WWII with the creation of the CIA things started to get really out of hand. "For over fifteen years, the CIA, with assistance from numerous government agencies, conducted a massive illegal domestic covert operation called Operation CHAOS. It was one of the largest and most pervasive domestic surveillance programs in the history of this country. Throughout the duration of CHAOS, the CIA spied on thousands of U.S. citizens. The CIA went to great lengths to conceal this operation from the public while every president from Eisenhower to Nixon exploited CHAOS for his own political ends... During the life of Operation CHAOS, the CIA had compiled personality files on over 13,000 individuals including more than 7,000 U.S. citizens as well as files on over 1,000 domestic groups. The CIA had shared information on more than 300,000 persons with different law enforcement agencies including the DIA and FBI. It had spied on, burglarized, intimidated, misinformed, lied to, deceived, and carried out criminal acts against thousands of citizens of the United States. It had placed itself above the law, above the Constitution, and in contempt of international diplomacy and the United States Congress. It had violated its charter and had contributed either directly or indirectly to the resignation of a President of the United States. It had tainted itself beyond hope. " Domestic Surveillance: The History of Operation CHAOS by Verne Lyon http://www.serendipity.li/cia/lyon.html. Keep in mind the legislation that created the CIA forbade domestic activity oagainst US citizens. But this did not stop the good ol' boy network from engaging in illegal activities along with their counterparts in the FBI, DIA, NSA and a host of other alphabet agencies. "We have seen segments of our Government, in their attitudes and action, adopt tactics unworthy of a democracy, and occasionally reminiscent of the tactics of totalitarian regimes. We have seen a consistent pattern in which programs initiated with limited goals, such as preventing criminal violence or identifying foreign spies, were expanded to what witnesses characterized as 'vacuum cleaners', sweeping in information about lawful activities of American citizens. The tendency of intelligence activities to expand beyond their initial scope is a theme which runs through every aspect of our investigative findings. Intelligence collection programs naturally generate ever-increasing demands for new data. And once intelligence has been collected, there are strong pressures to use it against the target. The pattern of intelligence agencies expanding the scope of their activities was well described by one witness, who in 1970 had coordinated an effort by most of the intelligence community to obtain authority to undertake more illegal domestic activity... Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and to much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone "bugs" surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous -- and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed -- including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform. Governmental officials -- including those whose principal duty is to enforce the law --have violated or ignored the law over long periods of time and have advocated and defended their right to break the law."- INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES AND THE RIGHTS OF AMERICANS BOOK II FINAL REPORT OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO STUDY GOVERNMENTAL OPERATIONS WITH RESPECT TO INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES UNITED STATES SENATE TOGETHER WITH ADDITIONAL, SUPPLEMENTAL, AND SEPARATE VIEWS APRIL 26 (legislative day, April 14), 1976. This report, The Church Committee Report was filed in 1976, a little over thirty years ago; alas it's just as timely and factual today, even more so than in 1976! George W.Bu$h is no different than his father, Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy or Eisenhower. The executive branch abusing its' power is nothing new. Bu$h has merely expanded these abuses and declared himself "the decider" on issues of spying on AmeriKKKans. The problem is, the citizens have no one in their corner. The CIA's Operation Mockingbird and media deregulation are colossal successes having totally undermined the whole notion of a free press and tuned it into a mind control apparatus that would make the CIA's MK Ultra program blush. Now the ruling elites are attempting to take over the Internet because they realize it is the last bastion of unfiltered information. So with the unprecedented expansion of the executive branch, the control of all information, total surveillance of the population, the enlargement of the AmeriKKKan gulag, AmeriKKKa has finally morphed into a totalitarian police state Hitler and Stalin would envy. The irony of all this is, the US Congress is more upset and concerned about the recent FBI raid on the offices of one of their own than the wholesale constitutional abuses, invasions of privacy or spying on millions of AmeriKKKans! -30- ___\ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 23:05:40 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <38c.41dd60c.31a93561@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I was thinking of My Large Buffpo Wedding, where Ron & Charles make it up the aisle at last, pursued by the hordes of Buffpo, the parents still arguing with the wedding organiser, the pomo cake wobbling as it decided what each of the guests wanted it to be. The, uh, lovely couple have a simple cermony borrowing bits from all religions, and atheism. The guests from England will stand in a corner amongst cat-pee and shadows saying "it'll never work", and "you don't want to do it like that". Afterwards, there'll be a fight between the East coast and West coast relatives whilst the rest of us get pissed etc etc. And we all go aahh ... Roger On 27/05/06, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > In a message dated 5/26/06 1:24:30 PM, steph484@PACBELL.NET writes: > > > > I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers might > > make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be 'post-modern' or maybe > > they could pretend they were "modern" or, drawing up plans, argue whether or > > not they were one or the other. I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. > > > > Stephen V > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > Currently home of the Tenderly series, > > A serial work in progress. > > > > Maybe Charles and Ron in a retro Greek restaurant attacked by a black school > of quietitude poet with curly hair? > > Ciao, > > Murat > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ "You better watch out, you better beware Albert says E=MC square" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 23:42:22 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <000601c68198$41d7c670$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Of course Marcus & Mark don't see the negative effects - they've never been on the receiving end of any empire's droit de seigneur so how could they even begin to understand? Their language hasn't been defiled, words ursurped, accents imitated condescendingly, jokingly put down, books changed, destroyed all in the name of some higher good, some better this with a force that cannot be denied ... 9/11 is when pomo *really started and modernism ended. Denial is everywhere and the prophets are now in the wilderness Roger On 27/05/06, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Marcus & Mark > > I think I have failed to explain myself. Or there is some resistance > to accepting my stance that colonialization has often negatively > impacted vernacular languages. > > I didn't attempt to refer to connotations. I am refering to single words > that house many meanings. Distinctive meaning, not connotation. Of course > the usage determines which of these many meanings are intended. Sometimes > the same sentence, if used craftily, could mean more than one thing - shades > of meaning that could be sometimes close but not necessarily always. > > Take for example, English words like "row" or "swallow" which could be used > to mean several things. The bird "swallow", the gobble "swallow", the > mumbling "swallow" etc. Now, imagine we begin to use the word "swallow" > to mean just the bird. The word soon gets stripped off its other meanings. > Its other usages. Don't you think that impoverishes the language ? Likewise, > as you try to see beyond the word, you'll soon notice, that certain "modes > of writing" start falling off the language while certain other modes begin > to dominate. > > Its not a bureaucratic issue, neither is it an issue with translatability. > It is about colonial influence and I don't think that has happened in India > alone. I'm only trying to describe the effect on Indian languages. > > Your example of "horse" is not exactly a fitting parallel of what I'm trying > to describe. > > Here are a few other examples that might be able to prove how colonial > cultural exposure changes the "modes" of vernacular writing. > > 1. The "novel" form or the modern day narrative, did not exist in ancient > Indian texts. Poetic forms were more prevalent. When British East India > Company began to expand territorial rule, they realized they need the > natives to participate in local administration. The structure of the society > soon began to change around these "jobs". The so-called "babu" middle-class > evolved, they began to learn English. The natives of Calcutta (now Kolkata) > and Madras (now Chennai) responded promptly. A nouveau, bilingual Indian > middle-class intelligentsia evolved. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, > a Bengali author, wrote, what is called the first Indian "novel" in early > nineteenth century during the Bengal Renaissance. It is no secret that > there was a strong influence of Sir Walter Scott on his work. A shift soon > began, written language gradually moved away from the poetic forms to a more > prosaic structure. The syntactical transformations in the language, that I > have mentioned before, started to be become more apparent. > > 2. Forget British influence for a few minutes. English, in India at least, > over the last two decades is an American language. The American idiom is all > over the place. I am not arguing that is "bad influence". But at times the > influence is very pleasant. > > Lets take the word "skyscraper". A quarter century back, when I was in > high-school, we used a Bengali word to mean "skyscraper". That word, if > directly translated back into english would sound "sky-toucher". That word > is rarely used these days. An exact Bengali translation of "skyscraper" is > in place. > > If you ask me, "scraping the sky" appears to be a little less contrived than > "touching the sky", which hints at a lot more than "scraping". "Touching" is > a more genteel action than "scraping" anyway. > > 3. There is a word in Hindi (also used in Bengali occassionally) for > man/person - Admi. A man-eater tiger is called "Adamkhor". There were > many other sanskrit derived (tatsama) words that were/are used to mean > a "man" or a "person". A pretty popular word was (which is still used > in Bengali/Hindi spheres) "lok". The word "lok" has the following meanings - > a) person b) man c) space d) area e) community > However, with the advent of the British, the word "Admi" became a more > frequent substitute to mean "man" or "person". It does not carry any other > meaning or connotation. The word "Admi", is a phonetic aberration of "Adam". > > > Societies change with the passage of time, rivers shrink or widen, cells > mutate transitively, animals adapt and no wonder language changes too, some > die (like sanskrit) while others are born (ebonics/esperanto/jharkhandi). > We all know that. > > I was trying to show you how colonial influence changes a language, at times > by hollowing out rich overflowing canals and discarding them as "abscess". > > Aryanil > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Marcus Bales > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:36 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > > Thank you, Aryanil, for your examples. > > I, like Mark Weiss, though, am unpersuaded. We speak of connotation > and denotation in English words, and it seems to me you're speaking > of some similar notions in HIndi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc. > It sounds as if 'akshar' has a number of connotations in addition to > its denotative meanings in context. I think it's the context that > guides the audience to understand which of the various things a word > can mean is meant by its use in a given example. In English there are > lots of words for "horse", for example. A nag is a sort of ill-used > or over-used horse; a steed is a sort of magnificent horse. So to say > "The knight rode up on his nag" or "The beggar arrived on his steed" > is to play significantly between denotative and connotative meanings. > These sentences can really only be understood in an even larger > context, the whole of the anecdote, or the tone of the tale, or the > situation in which the story is being told, for example. > > What you're describing are the problems of translation exacerbated by > the demands of bureaucracy, I think. Bureaucrats of any society are > intolerant of ambiguity. The point of bureaucracy may be fairly said, > I think, to try to reduce ambiguity as much as possible. Even within > a single language-culture the clash between bureaucrat and poet > regarding the use of language is profound. Certainly a foreign > occupying bureaucrat may be somewhat less tolerant of some kinds of > common social ambiguities than a same-culture bureaucrat, but in most > cultures most people are facile in understanding the various uses of > language. One doesn't go to the bureaucrat with poems, or to the poet > with forms to be filled out. > > Marcus > > > On 26 May 2006 at 13:53, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > This is not a syntactic change. And I'm guessing that you're vastly > > exaggerating the impact of two centuries (in Bengal--a lot less > > elsewhere) of British colonialism on the meanings of words. As in > > all > > other languages, I assume that the cluster of meanings that attaches > > to a particular word in Sanskrit-derived languages changes over > > time, > > otherwise "silly" would still mean "innocent." It's not all > > loss--some words lose no meanings, and others gain new meanings. And > > some words are added, others lost entirely. > > > > In Spanish in the past hundred years or so there's been a > > reinvestment by poets in older meanings of words--one aspect of the > > neobarroco--which has greatly enriched the textures of their poetry. > > They don't blame the changes in the language on this or that > > hegemon, > > tho. I'd guess that in the Indian case doing so is as much a > > political as a linguistic statement. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 12:32 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: > > >Marcus > > > > > >Hundreds of examples could be thrown to illustrate how external > > catalysts > > >change a language. It is a fascinating topic. Let me discuss one > > little > > >example here - > > > > > >Most Indian language (Hindi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc.) > > words > > >derived from Sanskrit historically held more than one meaning; in > > many cases > > >several. Because of a verb-based semantic structure, each word is > > derived > > >from a root-word (verb). The root-word does not have a specific > > meaning, but > > >like color in a painting, it has an impression, a flavor, often > > signifies > > >an action. > > > > > >Take for example the word "akshar". This word exists today in many > > Indian > > >languages. It means "letter" , sometimes "digit". The word is > > derived from > > >the sanskrit root-word "ash" which holds a quality of dynamism. The > > word > > >"ashwa" meaning "horse" is derived from the same root word. > > > > > >A "letter" is used to create a word, words create a sentence, > > sentences make > > >a text ...and so on. So at the elementary core of language is a > > letter, a > > >nuclear being, which was meant to be dynamic, mobile. We say - > > "language > > >flows". That sense was captured by the root-word which was in use > > in ancient > > >India thousands of years back. In ancient Indian societies "akshar" > > meant a > > >lot of things, like something "mobile", different life-forms etc. > > It also > > >meant "letter". What captures motion in nature ? The eye. Hence, > > the word > > >"akshi" meaning "eye" was also derived from the same root-word. > > > > > >Under colonial rule (British), a direct cultural clash resulted > > between > > >language traditions and when colonial powers dominate, their > > language > > >begins to dominate too. A language that had both verbal power and > > mysticism > > >in its womb soon had to be aborted. Specific meanings had to be > > culled from > > >each word. Colonial language coerced all major vernacular languages > > to set > > >up a word-for-word correspondence to make effective communication > > made > > >possible "their" way. In the process, words soon became barren - > > they were > > >made to hold a singular meaning. The rest was considered > > "abscess". > > > > > >Today, the word "akshar" just means "letter". In fact, it has fewer > > meaning > > >and usage than the english word "letter" might have. "Akshi" is an > > old > > >fashioned word; for example, it is considered archaic to use this > > word to > > >mean 'eye" in an Indian poem today. > > > > > >Some "Post-modern" Indian poets are thus talking about resuming > > this > > >"backward journey" - back to those words that felt like bee-hives, > > that had > > >more meaning, more weight, more honey and more buzz. But then, > > colonial > > >opression still continues in the language domain - so I'm not sure > > how > > >the revival would be made possible. > > > > > >Aryanil > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > >Behalf Of Marcus Bales > > >Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:21 AM > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > > > > > >Examples? > > > > > >M > > > > > >On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > > > > Gregory > > > > > > > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can > > see, > > > > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and > > semantics > > > > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed > > vernacular > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most > > > > widely > > > > spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure today, > > that > > > > is > > > > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from > > > > Sanskrit > > > > which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite > > different > > > > from > > > > western languages. > > > > > > > > Aryanil > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > > > Behalf Of St. Thomasino > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: postmodern poetry > > > > > > > > ` > > > > > > > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > > > > ` > > > > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed > > > > post-modern > > > > art (poetry included of course) is "an art of dissent" and of > > > > "anti-museumification". The element of dissent is beyond doubt, > > but > > > > much of > > > > that > > > > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is > > > > museumified > > > > to a great extent. > > > > > > > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, > > Indonesia, > > > > the > > > > West > > > > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry > > has > > > > picked > > > > up an > > > > > > > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying > > sort > > > > of > > > > a > > > > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in > > time, > > > > making > > > > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from > > the > > > > language > > > > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, > > nature. > > > > > > > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against > > > > "globalization", > > > > while for others, it creates a great conflict between colonist > > > > theory > > > > and > > > > local practise.' > > > > ` > > > > ` > > > > > > > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language > > > > rules of the vernacular.' > > > > ` > > > > Thanks. > > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > > ` > > > > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > > > > ` > > > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ "You better watch out, you better beware Albert says E=MC square" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 12:22:06 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if that were the case, Thoreau, Emerson, Whitman, Hawthorne, et al would all be modernists, which doesn't seem to help much aside from reinforcing the suspicion that the problems with the term post-modern can often be sheeted home to problems with the term modern. =20 Wystan=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Nick Piombino Sent: Saturday, 27 May 2006 8:53 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? Not long ago I asked Ann Lauterbach for her definition of post modernism. Her idea was that modernists take as their locus the self, the hub of the wheel, post modernists others, the spokes of the wheel. Nick P. On 5/26/06 4:14 PM, "Maria Damon" wrote: > Or...Langpo Sitcom!!! >=20 > At 10:25 AM -0700 5/26/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>> Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is=20 >>> post-modern and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino=20 >>> post-modern ? >>=20 >> I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers=20 >> might make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be=20 >> 'post-modern' or maybe they could pretend they were "modern" or,=20 >> drawing up plans, argue whether or not they were one or the other.=20 >> I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. >>=20 >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> Currently home of the Tenderly series, >> A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 20:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: another shot at post modernism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a little puzzled by those who would deny that there is a thing that can be rightly called post modernism. I think that the recent witty banter about Bernstein & Silliman, or Woody Allen & Altman, presumes that there is in fact a significant difference here, and for people like Alex Saliby who want to get a handle on these terms, these denials don't seem helpful. Of course, I agree with Mark Weiss & others who have suggested that the term post modernism is too broad and over-used. But, though I am a Sanskritist with my head buried in remote Vedic antiquity, I happen to be surrounded by artists in my family, and I have for some strange reason been teaching at an art school for the past dozen years or so. As such, I have no doubt that there is a post modernism that we should acknowledge, as such. I am convinced that most of us have come to have certain reservations about modernism. To the extent that we do, we are all post modern. I think that all of us who are feminists are post modern. I think that all of us who identify ourselves as ethnic are post modern. I think that all of us who identify ourselves as gay are post modern. I think that all of us who are drawn to non-European arts & cultures are post modern as well. Actually, I think that all of us are post modern, whether we know it or not. I mentioned McEvilley earlier. He was involved in a famous debate in the 80's concerning a well-known show at MOMA, "Primitivism" in Twentieth Century Art: Affinity of the Tribal and the Modern. Many of you are familiar with this, I'm sure. He was an editor at Artforum at the time, and he was one of the people who led the charge against MOMA modernism. I use the exchange between him and the curators of the MOMA show to introduce students to post modernism. My students almost totally self-identify as post modernist in response to this debate between McEvilley and the curators of this show, well-known and influential people like William Rubin and Kirk Varnedoe, guardians of the modernist church of art., both now dead And then we turn to film history. Even the slowest students recognize that when we turn to recent films we have entered into a landscape that is no longer modernist. One example: Chris Nolan's "Memento." They love it. Their parents hate it. George Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 12:51:39 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: postmodern poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll have to take your word for it that something started and stopped with 9/11. But you know New York and the US aren't the centre of all things. A few years before-- we don't fetishise the day and the month-- French terroritsts blew up the Rainbow Warrior a few blocks from where I sit, in an outrage in my country roughly comparable with your 9/11. You don't catch me going around saying modernism ended with the Rainbow Warrior. Maybe living in a small country gives one a greater sense of proportion. Wystan =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Roger Day Sent: Monday, 29 May 2006 10:42 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: postmodern poetry Of course Marcus & Mark don't see the negative effects - they've never been on the receiving end of any empire's droit de seigneur so how could they even begin to understand? Their language hasn't been defiled, words ursurped, accents imitated condescendingly, jokingly put down, books changed, destroyed all in the name of some higher good, some better this with a force that cannot be denied ... 9/11 is when pomo *really started and modernism ended. Denial is everywhere and the prophets are now in the wilderness Roger On 27/05/06, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > Marcus & Mark > > I think I have failed to explain myself. Or there is some resistance=20 > to accepting my stance that colonialization has often negatively=20 > impacted vernacular languages. > > I didn't attempt to refer to connotations. I am refering to single=20 > words that house many meanings. Distinctive meaning, not connotation.=20 > Of course the usage determines which of these many meanings are=20 > intended. Sometimes the same sentence, if used craftily, could mean=20 > more than one thing - shades of meaning that could be sometimes close=20 > but not necessarily always. > > Take for example, English words like "row" or "swallow" which could be > used to mean several things. The bird "swallow", the gobble "swallow", > the mumbling "swallow" etc. Now, imagine we begin to use the word=20 > "swallow" to mean just the bird. The word soon gets stripped off its=20 > other meanings. Its other usages. Don't you think that impoverishes=20 > the language ? Likewise, as you try to see beyond the word, you'll=20 > soon notice, that certain "modes of writing" start falling off the=20 > language while certain other modes begin to dominate. > > Its not a bureaucratic issue, neither is it an issue with=20 > translatability. It is about colonial influence and I don't think that > has happened in India alone. I'm only trying to describe the effect on > Indian languages. > > Your example of "horse" is not exactly a fitting parallel of what I'm=20 > trying to describe. > > Here are a few other examples that might be able to prove how colonial > cultural exposure changes the "modes" of vernacular writing. > > 1. The "novel" form or the modern day narrative, did not exist in=20 > ancient Indian texts. Poetic forms were more prevalent. When British=20 > East India Company began to expand territorial rule, they realized=20 > they need the natives to participate in local administration. The=20 > structure of the society soon began to change around these "jobs". The > so-called "babu" middle-class evolved, they began to learn English.=20 > The natives of Calcutta (now Kolkata) and Madras (now Chennai)=20 > responded promptly. A nouveau, bilingual Indian middle-class=20 > intelligentsia evolved. Bankim Chandra Chatterjee, a Bengali author,=20 > wrote, what is called the first Indian "novel" in early nineteenth=20 > century during the Bengal Renaissance. It is no secret that there was=20 > a strong influence of Sir Walter Scott on his work. A shift soon=20 > began, written language gradually moved away from the poetic forms to=20 > a more prosaic structure. The syntactical transformations in the=20 > language, that I have mentioned before, started to be become more=20 > apparent. > > 2. Forget British influence for a few minutes. English, in India at=20 > least, over the last two decades is an American language. The American > idiom is all over the place. I am not arguing that is "bad influence". > But at times the influence is very pleasant. > > Lets take the word "skyscraper". A quarter century back, when I was in > high-school, we used a Bengali word to mean "skyscraper". That word,=20 > if directly translated back into english would sound "sky-toucher".=20 > That word is rarely used these days. An exact Bengali translation of=20 > "skyscraper" is in place. > > If you ask me, "scraping the sky" appears to be a little less=20 > contrived than "touching the sky", which hints at a lot more than=20 > "scraping". "Touching" is a more genteel action than "scraping"=20 > anyway. > > 3. There is a word in Hindi (also used in Bengali occassionally) for=20 > man/person - Admi. A man-eater tiger is called "Adamkhor". There were=20 > many other sanskrit derived (tatsama) words that were/are used to mean > a "man" or a "person". A pretty popular word was (which is still used=20 > in Bengali/Hindi spheres) "lok". The word "lok" has the following meanings - > a) person b) man c) space d) area e) community > However, with the advent of the British, the word "Admi" became a more > frequent substitute to mean "man" or "person". It does not carry any=20 > other meaning or connotation. The word "Admi", is a phonetic=20 > aberration of "Adam". > > > Societies change with the passage of time, rivers shrink or widen,=20 > cells mutate transitively, animals adapt and no wonder language=20 > changes too, some die (like sanskrit) while others are born=20 > (ebonics/esperanto/jharkhandi). We all know that. > > I was trying to show you how colonial influence changes a language, at > times by hollowing out rich overflowing canals and discarding them as=20 > "abscess". > > Aryanil > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group=20 > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Marcus Bales > Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:36 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > > Thank you, Aryanil, for your examples. > > I, like Mark Weiss, though, am unpersuaded. We speak of connotation=20 > and denotation in English words, and it seems to me you're speaking of > some similar notions in HIndi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc. It=20 > sounds as if 'akshar' has a number of connotations in addition to its=20 > denotative meanings in context. I think it's the context that guides=20 > the audience to understand which of the various things a word can mean > is meant by its use in a given example. In English there are lots of=20 > words for "horse", for example. A nag is a sort of ill-used or=20 > over-used horse; a steed is a sort of magnificent horse. So to say=20 > "The knight rode up on his nag" or "The beggar arrived on his steed"=20 > is to play significantly between denotative and connotative meanings.=20 > These sentences can really only be understood in an even larger=20 > context, the whole of the anecdote, or the tone of the tale, or the=20 > situation in which the story is being told, for example. > > What you're describing are the problems of translation exacerbated by=20 > the demands of bureaucracy, I think. Bureaucrats of any society are=20 > intolerant of ambiguity. The point of bureaucracy may be fairly said,=20 > I think, to try to reduce ambiguity as much as possible. Even within a > single language-culture the clash between bureaucrat and poet=20 > regarding the use of language is profound. Certainly a foreign=20 > occupying bureaucrat may be somewhat less tolerant of some kinds of=20 > common social ambiguities than a same-culture bureaucrat, but in most=20 > cultures most people are facile in understanding the various uses of=20 > language. One doesn't go to the bureaucrat with poems, or to the poet=20 > with forms to be filled out. > > Marcus > > > On 26 May 2006 at 13:53, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > This is not a syntactic change. And I'm guessing that you're vastly=20 > > exaggerating the impact of two centuries (in Bengal--a lot less > > elsewhere) of British colonialism on the meanings of words. As in=20 > > all other languages, I assume that the cluster of meanings that=20 > > attaches to a particular word in Sanskrit-derived languages changes=20 > > over time, > > otherwise "silly" would still mean "innocent." It's not all > > loss--some words lose no meanings, and others gain new meanings. And > > some words are added, others lost entirely. > > > > In Spanish in the past hundred years or so there's been a=20 > > reinvestment by poets in older meanings of words--one aspect of the=20 > > neobarroco--which has greatly enriched the textures of their poetry. > > They don't blame the changes in the language on this or that=20 > > hegemon, tho. I'd guess that in the Indian case doing so is as much=20 > > a political as a linguistic statement. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 12:32 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: > > >Marcus > > > > > >Hundreds of examples could be thrown to illustrate how external > > catalysts > > >change a language. It is a fascinating topic. Let me discuss one > > little > > >example here - > > > > > >Most Indian language (Hindi/Bengali/Gujrathi/Oriya/Assamese etc.) > > words > > >derived from Sanskrit historically held more than one meaning; in > > many cases > > >several. Because of a verb-based semantic structure, each word is > > derived > > >from a root-word (verb). The root-word does not have a specific > > meaning, but > > >like color in a painting, it has an impression, a flavor, often > > signifies > > >an action. > > > > > >Take for example the word "akshar". This word exists today in many > > Indian > > >languages. It means "letter" , sometimes "digit". The word is > > derived from > > >the sanskrit root-word "ash" which holds a quality of dynamism. The > > word > > >"ashwa" meaning "horse" is derived from the same root word. > > > > > >A "letter" is used to create a word, words create a sentence, > > sentences make > > >a text ...and so on. So at the elementary core of language is a > > letter, a > > >nuclear being, which was meant to be dynamic, mobile. We say - > > "language > > >flows". That sense was captured by the root-word which was in use > > in ancient > > >India thousands of years back. In ancient Indian societies "akshar" > > meant a > > >lot of things, like something "mobile", different life-forms etc. > > It also > > >meant "letter". What captures motion in nature ? The eye. Hence, > > the word > > >"akshi" meaning "eye" was also derived from the same root-word. > > > > > >Under colonial rule (British), a direct cultural clash resulted > > between > > >language traditions and when colonial powers dominate, their > > language > > >begins to dominate too. A language that had both verbal power and > > mysticism > > >in its womb soon had to be aborted. Specific meanings had to be > > culled from > > >each word. Colonial language coerced all major vernacular languages > > to set > > >up a word-for-word correspondence to make effective communication > > made > > >possible "their" way. In the process, words soon became barren - > > they were > > >made to hold a singular meaning. The rest was considered > > "abscess". > > > > > >Today, the word "akshar" just means "letter". In fact, it has fewer > > meaning > > >and usage than the english word "letter" might have. "Akshi" is an > > old > > >fashioned word; for example, it is considered archaic to use this > > word to > > >mean 'eye" in an Indian poem today. > > > > > >Some "Post-modern" Indian poets are thus talking about resuming > > this > > >"backward journey" - back to those words that felt like bee-hives, > > that had > > >more meaning, more weight, more honey and more buzz. But then, > > colonial > > >opression still continues in the language domain - so I'm not sure > > how > > >the revival would be made possible. > > > > > >Aryanil > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > >Behalf Of Marcus Bales > > >Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:21 AM > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: Re: postmodern poetry > > > > > >Examples? > > > > > >M > > > > > >On 25 May 2006 at 12:21, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > > > > > > Gregory > > > > > > > > I am not really an expert here, but being multilingual, I can > > see, > > > > especially in many South Asian languages, the syntax and > > semantics > > > > of colonial languages have quite dramatically changed > > vernacular > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > Hindi and Bengali, for example, which are two of the six most=20 > > > > widely spoken languages in the world, use a semantic structure=20 > > > > today, > > that > > > > is > > > > largely influenced by English. These languages originated from=20 > > > > Sanskrit which had its own rules, a verb-based semantics quite > > different > > > > from > > > > western languages. > > > > > > > > Aryanil > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group=20 > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of St. Thomasino > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:14 AM > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: postmodern poetry > > > > > > > > ` > > > > > > > > Aryanil Mukherjee writes: > > > > ` > > > > 'Interestingly, several post-modern art theorists have claimed=20 > > > > post-modern art (poetry included of course) is "an art of=20 > > > > dissent" and of "anti-museumification". The element of dissent=20 > > > > is beyond doubt, > > but > > > > much of > > > > that > > > > art (Warhol, the abstract expressionists etc.) have been/is=20 > > > > museumified to a great extent. > > > > > > > > Looking beyond borders, in colonial cultures like India, > > Indonesia, > > > > the > > > > West > > > > Indies, parts of South Asia, where post-modern art & poetry > > has > > > > picked > > > > up an > > > > > > > > accent lately, the motto has been "back-to-the-roots", implying > > sort > > > > of > > > > a > > > > "backward journey", not in terms of cultural richness, but in > > time, > > > > making > > > > an effort to draw more from native cultural traditions, from > > the > > > > language > > > > rules of the vernacular and lastly, but most importantly, > > nature. > > > > > > > > All this for some, often lead to a natural defiance against=20 > > > > "globalization", while for others, it creates a great conflict=20 > > > > between colonist theory > > > > and > > > > local practise.' > > > > ` > > > > ` > > > > > > > > This is interesting, Aryanil. Especially: 'from the language=20 > > > > rules of the vernacular.' ` > > > > Thanks. > > > > Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino > > > > ` > > > > http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ > > > > ` > > > > > --=20 http://www.badstep.net/ http://www.cb1poetry.org.uk/ "You better watch out, you better beware Albert says E=3DMC square" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 18:17:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <640F0190D197074CA59E6F82064E80C35D8B93@artsmail.ARTSNET.AU CKLAND.AC.NZ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed With regard to Charles Olson's use of the term postmodern, what he meant by it as opposed by what it has come to mean in critical theory, Ralph Maud has an essay, possibly of interest to the discussion here. http://www.charlesolson.ca/files/archaic1.htm Charles Olson's archaic postmodern, by Ralph Maud Published in Minutes of the Charles Olson Society #42 (September 2001) charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 07:52:10 +0530 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: alicebluereview 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://www.alicebluereview.org -- transSubmutation http://transdada3.blogspot.com/ obedience Poetry Factory School. 2005. 86 pages, perfect bound, 6.5x9. ISBN: 1-60001-044-X $12 / $10 direct order Description: obedience, the fourth book by kari edwards, offers a rhythmic disruption of the relative real, a progressive troubling of the phenomenal world, from gross material to the infinitesimal. The book's intention is a transformative mantric dismantling of being. http://www.factoryschool.org/pubs/heretical/index.html http://www.spdbooks.org/SearchResults.asp?AuthorTitle=edwards%2C+kari ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 12:07:05 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Catherine Daly's Secret Kitty Now Up At Ahadada Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm happy to announce that Catherine Daly's Secret Kitty is now available as a free e-book from Ahadada Books. Go to ahadadabooks.com and knock yourself out! Jess ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 23:52:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: postmodern poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/28/06 6:43:03 PM, rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM writes: > > 3. There is a word in Hindi (also used in Bengali occassionally) for > > man/person - Admi. A man-eater tiger is called "Adamkhor". > "Adamkhor" is originally Persian. Another, a prior, outside influence. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 02:08:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reb Livingston Subject: Monday at Burlesque Poetry Hour Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed http://burlesquepoetryhour.blogspot.com/ Boys Gone Wild! Expect to see flesh when Daniel Nester, Karl Parker and Jamie Gaughran-Perez show their stuff to Lolita and Gilda at Bar Rouge in Washington D.C. Monday, May 29th. Reading will begin at 8:00 p.m. in at Bar Rouge. Daniel Nester is the author of God Save My Queen (Soft Skull Press, 2003) and God Save My Queen II (2004), both collections on his obsession with the rock band Queen, as well as The History of My World Tonight (BlazeVOX, 2006). His creative work has appeared in jubilat, Crazyhorse, Open City, Spoon River Poetry Review, Best American Poetry 2003, among other places; he also writes for Poets & Writers, Time Out New York, and Bookslut. He publishes and edits the online journal Unpleasant Event Schedule and is Assistant Web Editor for Sestinas for McSweeney's. He is an assistant professor of English at The College of Saint Rose in Albany, NY. Karl Parker currently teaches literature and creative writing at Hobart and William Smith Colleges in Geneva NY, having studied at Cornell and The New School. His work has appeared in Fence, Seneca Review, Spoon RIver, the tiny, MiPOesias, and No Tell Motel. Jamie Gaughran-Perez lives in Baltimore and works in DC. He's also lived in Michigan, Virginia, and Massachusetts. Last year was the first time since 1999 that he filed taxes in only one state. These days he runs Rock Heals, a little online weekly mag with all sorts of stuff, and publishes little and littler books. His work has been in various small magazines, but many of them are since gone. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 23:33:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: another shot at post modernism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George, You have no idea how much this helps! Thank you, Alex=20 P.S. I was beginning to feel the only road to understanding = postmodernism was to deny it ever existed and rent a DVD of an old = Lucile Ball movie. It isn't the film would have explained things; it's = rather I'd have laughed and not cared. =20 And by the way, the R. Maud link from C. Alexander earlier is a most = helpful commentary. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: george thompson=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:45 PM Subject: another shot at post modernism I am a little puzzled by those who would deny that there is a thing = that=20 can be rightly called post modernism. I think that the recent witty banter about Bernstein & Silliman, or=20 Woody Allen & Altman, presumes that there is in fact a significant=20 difference here, and for people like Alex Saliby who want to get a=20 handle on these terms, these denials don't seem helpful. Of course, I agree with Mark Weiss & others who have suggested that = the=20 term post modernism is too broad and over-used. But, though I am a=20 Sanskritist with my head buried in remote Vedic antiquity, I happen to = be surrounded by artists in my family, and I have for some strange=20 reason been teaching at an art school for the past dozen years or so. = As such, I have no doubt that there is a post modernism that we should = acknowledge, as such. I am convinced that most of us have come to have certain reservations=20 about modernism. To the extent that we do, we are all post modern. I = think that all of us who are feminists are post modern. I think that=20 all of us who identify ourselves as ethnic are post modern. I think=20 that all of us who identify ourselves as gay are post modern. I think = that all of us who are drawn to non-European arts & cultures are post=20 modern as well. Actually, I think that all of us are post modern,=20 whether we know it or not. I mentioned McEvilley earlier. He was involved in a famous debate in=20 the 80's concerning a well-known show at MOMA, "Primitivism" in=20 Twentieth Century Art: Affinity of the Tribal and the Modern. Many of=20 you are familiar with this, I'm sure. He was an editor at Artforum at = the time, and he was one of the people who led the charge against MOMA = modernism. I use the exchange between him and the curators of the = MOMA=20 show to introduce students to post modernism. My students almost totally self-identify as post modernist in response = to this debate between McEvilley and the curators of this show,=20 well-known and influential people like William Rubin and Kirk = Varnedoe,=20 guardians of the modernist church of art., both now dead And then we turn to film history. Even the slowest students recognize = that when we turn to recent films we have entered into a landscape = that=20 is no longer modernist. One example: Chris Nolan's "Memento." They love it. Their parents = hate it. George Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:04:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: post modern? In-Reply-To: <640F0190D197074CA59E6F82064E80C35D8B92@artsmail.ARTSNET.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" once could certainly make that argument. the problem with all of these categories is that they are highly contingent and somewhat shallow. At 12:22 PM +1200 5/29/06, Wystan Curnow wrote: > if that were the case, Thoreau, Emerson, Whitman, Hawthorne, et al >would all be modernists, which doesn't seem to help much aside from > reinforcing the suspicion that the problems with the term post-modern >can often be sheeted home to problems with the term modern. > > Wystan > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >On Behalf Of Nick Piombino >Sent: Saturday, 27 May 2006 8:53 a.m. >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: post modern? > > >Not long ago I asked Ann Lauterbach for her definition of post >modernism. Her idea was that modernists take as their locus the self, >the hub of the wheel, post modernists others, the spokes of the wheel. > >Nick P. > > > >On 5/26/06 4:14 PM, "Maria Damon" wrote: > >> Or...Langpo Sitcom!!! >> >> At 10:25 AM -0700 5/26/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>>> Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is >>>> post-modern and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino >>>> post-modern ? >>> >>> I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers >>> might make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be >>> 'post-modern' or maybe they could pretend they were "modern" or, >>> drawing up plans, argue whether or not they were one or the other. >>> I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. >>> >>> Stephen V >>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>> Currently home of the Tenderly series, >>> A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:04:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: steve potter Subject: postmodernisit? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed At 06:49 on Sat, 27 May 2006 :14 -0400 Marcus Bales wrote: > >First, I think it is simply not the case that there is any greater >loss of a clear sense of the real versus the imaginary now in the >West than at any other time in human history. When someone is hit by >a car >>>>>For most of human history it was quite impossible to get hit by a car >>>>>because there were none. They are a product of the modern era. The fact >>>>>that it is now possible to get hit by a car ought to get you to at >>>>>least accept that the modern (if not postmodern) era is distinctly >>>>>different than any previous era. > >People can be fooled; other people try to fool them, for fun or >profit. But that has been the case for all of human history, and it >is false, and I think a peculiar falsity of the ivory tower outlook, >to claim that this is "postmodern". Perhaps ivory tower dwellers have >only just noticed that people are gullible and venal and in their >shock and dismay have decided to call it "postmodern"? >>>>>>I can’t speak for ivory tower dwellers, having never been one, but >>>>>>anyway you’ve completely missed the point. Certainly much of human >>>>>>behavior remains the same from era to era, but the particular >>>>>>conditions in which these behaviors play out differ. The act of >>>>>>defining one era from another is a matter of particulars. One era >>>>>>hacks each other with swords from chariots while another fires bullets >>>>>>out of Uzis from passing BMWs. Yes, human beings seem to retain many >>>>>>of the same desires from era to era, but the way these desires are >>>>>>acted on change in subtle and not so subtle ways. > > > Some examples straight from the papers: water pistol designed to > > look so > > much like actual pistol a kid gets shot dead by a cop; firemen in > > Los > > Angeles wasting several minutes trying to connect their hoses to a > > fire > > hydrant before realizing it's a movie prop not connected to any > > water > > supply; models hired to portray "real people" having a get together > > inside a > > model home during an open house at a new real estate development to > > help > > lure buyers who'd naturally want to live near such hip and > > attractive > > people; a magnificent slight-of-hand act, that fooled the investing > > world > > awhile, called Enron; and the ever more common Columbine to Kyle > > Huff horror > > of desperately unhappy young men taking their video game fantasy > > shoot 'em > > ups into the real world.< > >Even if there were a loss of a clear sense of the real versus the >imaginary, these are _terrible_ examples of such a thing. >>>>No they aren’t, they're excellent examples. These are all examples of one set of people trying to fool another set, >>>>>No, only two of them are examples of one set of people trying to fool >>>>>another. Two are instances of the "imaginary" being mistaken for the >>>>>"real" and dealt with as real: kids pretending to shoot each other with >>>>>toys mistaken for men actually shooting each other and so actually >>>>>shot, as if they were real criminals, by real cops; firemen arriving at >>>>>a fire on a movie lot and mistaking a fake fire hydrant for a real one. >>>>>Sort of the reverse of The Purple Rose of Cairo/Buster Keaton bit of >>>>>the movie character stepping into real life -- real life firemen >>>>>stepping into a movie. not examples of areas of the world where gravity doesn't work any more >for a bit and then does again, >>>>>Huh? I wrote: “One aspect of the ‘Postmodern Condition’ is the loss of >>>>>the reality principle, the loss of any clear sense of the real versus >>>>>the imaginary.” Not “One aspect of the ‘Postmodern Condition’ is that >>>>>the laws of nature no longer function.” or where medicines work and don't work >depending on some imponderable, or that some gods have started really >intervening in the real world in response to some kinds of prayer, or >just for sport, or that pollutants have triggered chemicals in the >human brain that prevent us from perceiving the difference between >hallucinations and reality, >>>>>>>Anybody find those WMDs yet? I’d say we’re living in a world that’s >>>>>>>pretty nearly half-hallucination. or other such real losses of "the real >versus the imaginary". Your examples are all trivially irrelevant to >your claim. >>>>>If you had the remotest idea what my claim was, you would understand >>>>>that they are good examples, but I think that requires a bit more >>>>>subtlety of mind than you’re willing or able to apply to it. Why not >>>>>read some of the texts that have been suggested so you can write with >>>>>some ground to stand on rather than simply flailing away at perceived >>>>>“ivory tower dwellers?” > >There is no "condition of postmodernity" as you've described it. >Whether there is such a condition or not is still up for debate, I >suppose, but your description is no different than a description of >any other time's human societies. >>>>>>Let’s see: water guns, fire hydrants, open house at a new real estate >>>>>>development, lying CEOs, video game-inspired random acts of violence >>>>>>-- ah, yes you’re absolutely right, of course. Those were all a big >>>>>>part of the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Reformation. Nothing’s >>>>>>ever changed. We’re typing into computers rather than typing on >>>>>>electric typewriters, rather than typing on manual typewriters, rather >>>>>>than setting manual type into a printing press, rather than writing >>>>>>with reeds on sheets of papyrus, rather than carving stones. But >>>>>>everything is exactly the same now as it’s ever been. There have always been people who are gullible or venal... >>>>Actually there haven’t always been people who are gullible or venal >>>>because there haven’t always been people. For much of the history of the >>>>earth there weren’t any people at all. And then at some point there >>>>were. We define those as two different eras. And as we proceed through >>>>time, and the ways in which we relate to our surroundings change, >>>>succeeding generations look at how the times they are living in are >>>>different from and similar to other periods of the past. The defining of >>>>eras is, of course, inexact. Even when it’s agreed upon that an era can >>>>be considered a distinct era, the dates of its start and end are often >>>>debated. But to argue that there’s no difference between the current >>>>era -- whether it's “postmodern” or still "modern" -- and various eras >>>>of the past is absurd. Eras are defined in their particulars, not broad >>>>generalities of what people are like or have always been like. The >>>>Bronze Age is known as The Bronze Age because that is when people first >>>>started using bronze, even if people in most ways behaved much as they >>>>did in the prior era. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:15:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Rune 2 / 26 Voices / January Interlude, by Karl Kempton Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As we wave goodbye to the Z (Zee) of Analphabet, by Geof Huth, it's time to wave hello to the first of Rune 2 / 26 Voices / January Interlude, by Karl Kempton (Typewriter 10, Bird in the Bush). New series beginning today at: http://www.logolalia.com/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ Whee! Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 09:38:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On 27/05/06, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > I think I have failed to explain myself. Or there is some > > resistance to accepting my stance that colonialization has often > > negatively impacted vernacular languages. I'm happy to agree that colonialism changes vernacular languages significantly. But what languages do is change. Who was it who said that a language is a dialect with an army and navy? The conquerors have their view of the world, and they expect to enforce it -- or they wouldn't be conquerors. That's what conquerors _do_, after all: enforce their view of the world. Welsh and other Gaelic languages are just barely ticking over any more (Bales is Welsh), in spite of the fact that it was the _Welsh_ longbow that enabled the English to go out conquering. But the Gaels have had kings and prime ministers and dominant literary people within the British political structure. So with the Greeks and Romans. > > ... Its not a bureaucratic issue, neither is it an issue with > translatability. > > It is about colonial influence and I don't think that has happened > in India > > alone. I'm only trying to describe the effect on Indian > languages.<< Various dialects-with-armies on the Indian continent had their own colonialist conquering days, as well, and imposed their language on the unwilling no less than they subsequently resisted other conquerors' languages before English came along. Every age is as hard a place to save your soul as every other age. Ours is not the worst. Eymology is the history of political imposition -- and resistance. The examples you gave, George Thompson's scholarship aside (no offense, just to the side for a moment, not to say it's not usefully impressive), though, together with the notion that "some 'post- modern' Indian poets are talking about resuming the 'backward journey'," doesn't strike me as particularly new, or even interesting, even if your etymologies were not as questionable as George has shown. A clever translator can do a lot of good for himself and his family, tribe, etc. through careful editing -- and a lot of harm to his enemies, including the occupiers, if he chooses. I have no doubt there were a large number of such clever translators who were careful to maneuver in and out of the various meanings of a large number of words. I'm not very familiar, alas, with the process in India, but the stories are rife in Graeco-Roman and European tales, and any of us who've ever been in the position of translating, even casually, can think of our own examples. It's not that I have no sympathy for the demands that the colonialists place on the language of the colonized, it's that it's a common tale, often told, and not very interesting, nor significant, in and of itself. More power to the contemporary Indian poets who are examining their languages! But post-modern? Nah. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: postmodern poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcus Ireland too, liberated from the British regime the same time India did. It would be interesting to know what effect colonialization left on their language and literature. I am indeed aware that language changes, else it would be dead, or marginalized, like Sanskrit, for example, and I did mention it in my correspondence. In fact, what got me interested in "words, their meanings and their environ" is a new series of poems I am working on which are based on word-thoughts. While I am researching the "lost abscesses" of a given word, I'm also trying to explore the newness they have acquired over time, a newness I could offer through my poem and sometimes I am inspecting it as a psychological pill, trying to think of the cloud of thoughts it creates as you inject it into the mind. Looking for the chilly in the curry that can't be found with a magnifying glass. > I'm happy to agree that colonialism changes vernacular languages > significantly. But what languages do is change. Who was it who said > that a language is a dialect with an army and navy? The conquerors > have their view of the world, and they expect to enforce it -- or > they wouldn't be conquerors. That's what conquerors _do_, after all: > enforce their view of the world. Welsh and other Gaelic languages are > just barely ticking over any more (Bales is Welsh), in spite of the > fact that it was the _Welsh_ longbow that enabled the English to go > out conquering. But the Gaels have had kings and prime ministers and > dominant literary people within the British political structure. So > with the Greeks and Romans. > > > The examples you gave, George Thompson's scholarship aside (no > offense, just to the side for a moment, not to say it's not usefully > impressive), though, together with the notion that "some 'post- > modern' Indian poets are talking about resuming the 'backward > journey'," doesn't strike me as particularly new, or even > interesting, even if your etymologies were not as questionable as > George has shown. A clever translator can do a lot of good for > himself and his family, tribe, etc. through careful editing -- and a > lot of harm to his enemies, including the occupiers, if he chooses. I > have no doubt there were a large number of such clever translators > who were careful to maneuver in and out of the various meanings of a > large number of words. I'm not very familiar, alas, with the process > in India, but the stories are rife in Graeco-Roman and European > tales, and any of us who've ever been in the position of translating, > even casually, can think of our own examples. I was deeply shocked by Thompson's grossly impolite dismissals. I have no inclination to talk about it here, in this e-mail. I'll write directly to him. > > It's not that I have no sympathy for the demands that the > colonialists place on the language of the colonized, it's that it's a > common tale, often told, and not very interesting, nor significant, > in and of itself. More power to the contemporary Indian poets who are > examining their languages! But post-modern? Nah. > Well, I don't find it interesting either. I stated it as a fact. Also, that is only one of the many complex thinks they have dealt with. Some of my poems, that have been included in post-modern Bangla and Hindi anthologies have left me wondering for ever as to "what is so post-modern about these specific poems". A translated english language collection "PostModern Bangla Poetry - 2001" has come out too. The introduction by ex-Hungryalist poet Malay Roy Choudhury (who was published in the 60s by City Lights) is fascinating. If anyone is interested to review it in a journal, I can send it out. Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:38:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable > Marcus Bales wrote: > >First, I think it is simply not the case that there is any > > greater loss of a clear sense of the real versus the imaginary > > now in the West than at any other time in human history. When > > someone is hit by a car Someone wrote (sorry, this is quoted from someone else's quoting, and I didn't see the original): > > > For most of human history it was quite impossible to get hit by > > > a car because there were none. They are a product of the modern > > = > era. The fact that it is now possible to get hit by a car ought > > > to get you to at least accept that the modern (if not > > > postmodern) era is distinctly different than any previous era.< I disagree -- in fact, I think this is just the kind of point-missing approach that characterizes most claims of "post-modern". In our day, "hit by a car" signifies the random chance of disaster. In other days, one could certainly get "hit by a car", metaphorically, but it was more likely to be a disease or one of those clowns in a chariot in whose way some poor commoner mischanced to stand. Marcus Bales wrote: > >People can be fooled; other people try to fool them, for fun or > >profit. But that has been the case for all of human history, and > > it is false, and I think a peculiar falsity of the ivory tower > > outlook, to claim that this is "postmodern". Perhaps ivory tower dwell= ers > > have only just noticed that people are gullible and venal and in their > >shock and dismay have decided to call it "postmodern"?< Someone else wrote: > > > ... Certainly much of > > > human behavior remains the same from era to era, but the particular > > > conditions in which these behaviors play out differ. The act > > > of defining one era from another is a matter of particulars. One > > > era hacks each other with swords from chariots while another fires > > > bullets out of Uzis from passing BMWs. Yes, human beings seem to > > > retain many of the same desires from era to era, but the way these d= esires > > > are acted on change in subtle and not so subtle ways. This seems to be arguing against yourself. The examples you gave previously are just not examples of ways people act being changed in any way. Someone else wrote: > > > ... only two of them are examples of one set of people trying > > > to fool another. Two are instances of the "imaginary" being mistaken > > > for the "real" and dealt with as real: kids pretending to shoot each > > > other with toys mistaken for men actually shooting each other and so > > > actually shot, as if they were real criminals, by real cops; firemen > > > arriving at a fire on a movie lot and mistaking a fake fire hydrant = for a > > > real one. Mistaking the imaginary for the real cannot reasonably be held to be evidence of the "post-modern" because the very notion of the stage, of literature, of art itself, is a mistaking of the imaginary for the real -- to significant and cathartic effect, effects intended to evoke and convey real emotions in real people. The idea that such a thing is "post-modern" is ridiculous, unless you define the "modern" as pre-antiquity, and declare that humanity has been "post-modern" for ten thousand years -- which, I suppose, I shouldn't put past "post-modern" theorists. Literature and history are filled with incidents of people taking the real to be imaginary and the imaginary to be real. Oedipus killed his real father, imagining him to be a stranger. Atilla the Hun stopped plundering Italy after a parley with Leo X -- what Atilla imagined, and what Leo said was real, we'll never know, but what Leo knew, and what we know, is that if Atilla had ignored it, there was nothing to stop the Huns in the rest of the peninsula. No one stood around saying it was "post-modern", either -- though many people called it a miracle. Someone referred to http://www.charlesolson.ca/files/archaic1.htm, where I found this quote: "The formula seems inescapable," says Butterick; "the deeper man returns to his archaic, primordial, pre-rationalist condition, the further beyond modernism he advances" Perhaps what "post-modern" really means, then, is "pre-modern", and it's all just anti-intellectual hogwash. One wonders what post- modernists do when they've got appendicitis. We can only hope they'll return to their archair, primordial, pre-rationalist conditions, I suppose, and there'll be a spate of them winning the Darwin Awards. Marcus Bales wrote: > not examples of areas of the world where gravity doesn't work any > more for a bit and then does again, Someone else wrote: > > > Huh? I wrote: "One aspect of the `Postmodern Condition=B4 is the > > > loss of the reality principle, the loss of any clear sense of the r= eal > > > versus the imaginary." Not "One aspect of the `Postmodern Condition=B4 > > > is that the laws of nature no longer function."< Bah -- anyone who's ever had the misfortune to spend any committed time with the schizophrenic or other seriously dissociative diseases will easily see this for the crap it is. Those whose conditions are REALLY about "loss of the reality principle" or "loss of any clear sense of the real versus the imaginary" are very different from either ordinary people or intellectuals who talk about "loss of the reality principle" or "transgressive art" and the like. What people who really do experience the loss of the reality principle believe is PRECISELY that the laws of nature no longer function. Someone else wrote: > > > Anybody find those WMDs yet? I=B4d say we=B4re living in a world > > > that=B4s pretty nearly half-hallucination.< This kind of utterance reveals that you probably really do think that the lies about WMDs are the very first lies any government has ever presented to its constituencies as a justification for war. Don't you get it? It's all been evasions and half-truths, and always has been. It's not "post-modern" to talk about lying governments, for god's sake! Someone else wrote: > > > If you had the remotest idea what my claim was, you would > > > understand that they are good examples< Well, explain what your claim IS, then. Maybe they ARE good examples of whatever else it is you're claiming, but they're not good examples that we live in a time when the human condition has changed in any significant way. Someone else wrote: > > > but I think that requires a bit more subtlety of mind than you=B4re = willing or able to apply to it.< I'll tell you what: you refrain from fumbling after pathetic insults like this one, and I'll refrain from pretending that you're so ill- educated you think Gibbon is a species of monkey, okay? Can't we talk about this without the Gudding Effect trailing us all about like the bad stink it is? Someone else wrote: > > > Let=B4s see: water guns, fire hydrants, open house at a new real > > > estate development, lying CEOs, video game-inspired random acts of > > > violence -- ah, yes you=B4re absolutely right, of course. Those were= all > > > a big part of the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, the Reformation.< People have died pretending to have weapons they didn't have since before there were water pistols. People have dug false wells, lied about real estate values, lied as merchants, and been inspired to go kill people by art and artifice forever. Homer's poems were the video games of his day, dude. Have you ever read them? Spears going through teeth, which scatter like Chiclets, and the spurt of blood as the head goes through the roof of the mouth and into the brain? And what about those long lists of ships and shields, eh? Is that advertising, is that product-placement, or what? Someone else wrote: > > > Nothing=B4s ever changed. We=B4re typing into computers rather than = typing > > > on electric typewriters, rather than typing on manual > > > typewriters, rather than setting manual type into a printing > > > press, rather than writing with reeds on sheets of papyrus, > > > rather than carving stones But everything is exactly the same > > > now as it=B4s ever been.< That's right -- it's all the same. People lie. People cheat. People steal. People love, laugh, and die. The means are not as relevant as you'd have them be. Someone else wrote: > > > Actually there haven=B4t always been people who are gullible or > > > venal because there haven=B4t always been people.< Mistaking hyperbole for an actual claim. How low is that? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 04:02:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 26 May 2006 to 27 May 2006 (#2006-148) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey steve never got the new issue of hermit steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 04:16:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Fw: Fw: Fw: 2 we're back please try to make this one thanks and love steve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit loren mazzacane connors & steve dalachinsky in duo @ the stone may 30th 2006 8 pm 2nd st & ave C as part of a month long hommage in may to the memory of Derek Bailey many great artist performing may 2 - may 31 check the stone schedule www.thestonenyc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:47:29 -0700 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , Wom Po , Lucifer Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Tim Yu, Pamela Lu and Asian-American anthologies Some links: Margaret Rockwell Finch and her daughter Annie Five Afghani women poets Derek Walcott, Seamus Heaney Blogging and the First Amendment The DFA-List Democracy for America organizes progressive fundraising Andrew Schelling on New Directions Eliot Weinberger on New Directions Gilbert Sorrentino as critic Charles Olson on the syllable The simplest things last – Simplicities in Olson’s Projective Verse Mei-mei’s house, a 102-year-old poet and other miscellany More on lists including Playboy’s 25 sexiest novels (a note from Pam Rosenthal) Fetch Rae Armantrout’s new chapbook The uneven history of New Directions and its commitment to Pound-Williams tradition How to stock poetry in a bookstore (a note from Andrew Schelling) Cognitive blends in Howl hydrogen jukebox Ginsberg, Cezanne, and a literary device in Howl The School of Quietude – a note The best work of American fiction as viewed by the New York Times The closing of Cody’s a memoir of Berkeley bookstores http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 13:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: aubade sampler (pdf) Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT a pdf sampler from my 12th poetry collection, aubade (fall 2006, Broken Jaw Press): http://www.brokenjaw.com/catalog/grafix/aubadeSampler-WEBchpbk.pdf 300 copies of the _aubade sampler_ were printed and bound in-house by Broken Jaw Press for the upcoming Book Expo in Toronto. aubade will appear in September, 2006 with launches across Canada, including a launch at this fall's ottawa international writers festival. rob -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...11th coll'n - name , an errant (Stride, UK) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 12:19:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: <000601c68198$41d7c670$a52c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 27-May-06, at 7:17 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > I think I have failed to explain myself. Or there is some resistance > to accepting my stance that colonialization has often negatively > impacted vernacular languages. Boy, there is an example right there! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:27:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: Re: postmodern poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Marcus and Aryanil, Please let me interrupt your interesting discussion just one more time, and then I'll drop out. First, I will apologize to Aryanil if I have been impolite. Nevertheless, the Sanskrit 'etymologies' that you have cited have a long history, going back to the Vedic texts themselves. But in these texts these 'etymologies' are better understood as word-play. Etymologies are different from word-play insofar as there is a serious effort to get right the actual historical development of the words [Greek 'etymos' = true, actual, real]. Word-play feels no obligation to etymos. What undercuts the word-play as etymology in many Indic languages [not just Bengali] with a word like ashva 'horse' is that when you look at its cognates in other languages you have to come to the conclusion that the Sanskrit word has evolved into its shape 'ashva' from earlier forms. Look, in Old Iranian languages it took the shape 'aspa' [in Avestan] and 'asa' in Old Persian. Given the European forms that I mentioned earlier, it is clear that the underlying Proto-Indo-European form for 'horse' was something like ekwos. In order to follow the train of thought that this conclusion entails, you'd have to take a couple of courses in comparative linguistics and then Indo-European linguistics. In any case, it is a demonstrable linguistic fact that the Sanskrit word for horse has nothing to do with the words for 'syllable' or 'eye' -- except in the imagination of poets. I do not dismiss the imagination of poets. But it is a different thing than linguistic facts. If you wish to look further into this, see Buck's old classic *A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages*, or the more recent *Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture* by Mallory & Adams. Please try to see that I am not rtying to browbeat you with references. I am trying to teach you something that you do not know. Again, with apologies. George ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:34:04 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447ACF34.32647.289BB6B@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 30/5/06 12:38 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Well, explain what your claim IS, then. Maybe they ARE good examples > of whatever else it is you're claiming, but they're not good examples > that we live in a time when the human condition has changed in any > significant way. Hmmm. A defining aspect of what might be called the post modern seems to me the ability for human beings to destroy the planet. Yes, we've always had the apocalypse, but God did that. Then around the Renaissance you had the pseudo Gnostic theories and the beginnings of science, the blasphemous shifting of Man to the centre of all those circular diagrams of the Universe, a public questioning of the certainty of certain social principles, the beginning of print, &c. This (to speak in vague generalities, but there we are, this is this argument, and of course no borders are clean or clear; and apologies too for the Eurocentric timeline here) ushers in the Modern: rationalistic science evolving out of superstition, modern medicine based on observation of actual human bodies moving on from Galen, exploration and the New World, a huge expansion of European colonisation, mass Revolution, and so on. All this was certainly full of traditional human cunning and cruelty, of course. But Nature remained stable, capricious, sublime, an endless resource, the thing that Man exploited and pillaged and wanted to conquer Once they dropped the bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Man took on the abilities of a God and could make his own apocalypse. This tended to undermine the rationalist faith that inhabited the Modern, and shifted the relationship between Man and Nature, which is to say, Man and everything else. After that, Beckett, Sartre, Schwitters, Ionesco, Genet... Now we're well on the way to a mass extinction of the planet's species, which has never happened before. We won't have a polar ice cap in 50 years. We live in times significantly more mobile and more media-saturated than at any time in human history. This means we are more aware of this unique destruction than we would have been at any other time as well. That's why people retreat into mass hallucinations like religious extremism, nationalism and so on. It's like we're in a video that is a re-run of the end of the 19C, only we're watching ourselves on tv. The past half century seems to me fairly significantly different from other epochs. Perhaps Marcus you've noticed that the most technologically advanced soldiers in the world are no longer Hoplites, and that soldiers no longer wear bronze greaves. Whether you call it post modern - I guess you might as well - is neither here nor there. Depressingly similar of course in many ways, but by no means the same. A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:52:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: another shot at post modernism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There were lots of feminists in the classic days of modernism. Try this out: Starting some time in the period immediately before and after the Franco-Prussian War an extremely diverse set of new things began to happen in the arts and in society in all places where European languages are spoken (even in colonies, where the European language was one of several). We're still involved in exploring those new things and their sequellae. One can choose a very small cast of characters (mostly in Paris, London, Vienna and a few German cities) and call what they did modernism to the exclusion of everybody and everything else, but then one would be forced to acknowledge legions of proto-post-modernists, and the terms would become rather limited in their usefulness. There were, for instance, lots of feminists running around, of course not completely in the mold of current feminism, but very closely related. As to ethnic, Rivera and the muralists, Guillen, Lam--the list would get very long very quickly. Gay? Proust, par example? Lorca? I'm not saying that nothing changes, I'm saying that the changes within modernism are not well-served by the term post-modern--it was just too diverse a phenomenon. A good source for that diversity in poetry: vol 1 of Poems for the Millenium. I'm not an academic, so for me the term is only a mild annoyance. More annoying is what seems to me to be the real import of the term--as a brand-name, a way of selling a product. The product, I suspect, is critical reputation rather than knowledge. OK, I'll sit back now and field whatever tomatoes are lobbed my way. Mark At 02:33 AM 5/28/2006, you wrote: >George, >You have no idea how much this helps! >Thank you, >Alex >P.S. I was beginning to feel the only road to understanding >postmodernism was to deny it ever existed and rent a DVD of an old >Lucile Ball movie. It isn't the film would have explained things; >it's rather I'd have laughed and not cared. > >And by the way, the R. Maud link from C. Alexander earlier is a most >helpful commentary. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: george thompson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 5:45 PM > Subject: another shot at post modernism > > > I am a little puzzled by those who would deny that there is a thing that > can be rightly called post modernism. > > I think that the recent witty banter about Bernstein & Silliman, or > Woody Allen & Altman, presumes that there is in fact a significant > difference here, and for people like Alex Saliby who want to get a > handle on these terms, these denials don't seem helpful. > > Of course, I agree with Mark Weiss & others who have suggested that the > term post modernism is too broad and over-used. But, though I am a > Sanskritist with my head buried in remote Vedic antiquity, I happen to > be surrounded by artists in my family, and I have for some strange > reason been teaching at an art school for the past dozen years or so. > As such, I have no doubt that there is a post modernism that we should > acknowledge, as such. > > I am convinced that most of us have come to have certain reservations > about modernism. To the extent that we do, we are all post modern. I > think that all of us who are feminists are post modern. I think that > all of us who identify ourselves as ethnic are post modern. I think > that all of us who identify ourselves as gay are post modern. I think > that all of us who are drawn to non-European arts & cultures are post > modern as well. Actually, I think that all of us are post modern, > whether we know it or not. > > I mentioned McEvilley earlier. He was involved in a famous debate in > the 80's concerning a well-known show at MOMA, "Primitivism" in > Twentieth Century Art: Affinity of the Tribal and the Modern. Many of > you are familiar with this, I'm sure. He was an editor at Artforum at > the time, and he was one of the people who led the charge against MOMA > modernism. I use the exchange between him and the curators of the MOMA > show to introduce students to post modernism. > > My students almost totally self-identify as post modernist in response > to this debate between McEvilley and the curators of this show, > well-known and influential people like William Rubin and Kirk Varnedoe, > guardians of the modernist church of art., both now dead > > And then we turn to film history. Even the slowest students recognize > that when we turn to recent films we have entered into a landscape that > is no longer modernist. > > One example: Chris Nolan's "Memento." They love it. Their > parents hate it. > > George Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:02:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Alison: I have nothing to do with Marcus' ideas. I do think that you've illustrated the meaningless of the term, tho, by stretching it way too far. The great shock to the European system begins before WWI. The sense that humans can destroy life on earth begins around then. It gives birth to apocalyptic science fiction, like the vastly popular War of the Worlds. The shock happens in the decade in which film and radio take over and shortly after the invention of the telephone (speaking of communication) and heavier than air flight becomes a reality--a pretty big paradigm shift. Of course there's been enormous change, but it's a continuity, not a breach, since that shock. Mark At 05:34 PM 5/29/2006, you wrote: >On 30/5/06 12:38 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > > > Well, explain what your claim IS, then. Maybe they ARE good examples > > of whatever else it is you're claiming, but they're not good examples > > that we live in a time when the human condition has changed in any > > significant way. > >Hmmm. > >A defining aspect of what might be called the post modern seems to me the >ability for human beings to destroy the planet. Yes, we've always had the >apocalypse, but God did that. Then around the Renaissance you had the pseudo >Gnostic theories and the beginnings of science, the blasphemous shifting of >Man to the centre of all those circular diagrams of the Universe, a public >questioning of the certainty of certain social principles, the beginning of >print, &c. This (to speak in vague generalities, but there we are, this is >this argument, and of course no borders are clean or clear; and apologies >too for the Eurocentric timeline here) ushers in the Modern: rationalistic >science evolving out of superstition, modern medicine based on observation >of actual human bodies moving on from Galen, exploration and the New World, >a huge expansion of European colonisation, mass Revolution, and so on. All >this was certainly full of traditional human cunning and cruelty, of course. >But Nature remained stable, capricious, sublime, an endless resource, the >thing that Man exploited and pillaged and wanted to conquer > >Once they dropped the bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Man took on the >abilities of a God and could make his own apocalypse. This tended to >undermine the rationalist faith that inhabited the Modern, and shifted the >relationship between Man and Nature, which is to say, Man and everything >else. After that, Beckett, Sartre, Schwitters, Ionesco, Genet... > >Now we're well on the way to a mass extinction of the planet's species, >which has never happened before. We won't have a polar ice cap in 50 years. >We live in times significantly more mobile and more media-saturated than at >any time in human history. This means we are more aware of this unique >destruction than we would have been at any other time as well. That's why >people retreat into mass hallucinations like religious extremism, >nationalism and so on. It's like we're in a video that is a re-run of the >end of the 19C, only we're watching ourselves on tv. > >The past half century seems to me fairly significantly different from other >epochs. Perhaps Marcus you've noticed that the most technologically advanced >soldiers in the world are no longer Hoplites, and that soldiers no longer >wear bronze greaves. Whether you call it post modern - I guess you might as >well - is neither here nor there. Depressingly similar of course in many >ways, but by no means the same. > >A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:05:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Poetry Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A451D6; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-447B70127A91=======" --=======AVGMAIL-447B70127A91======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A451D6 The Cultural Society / Magers and Quinn presents: A poetry reading with Jane Augustine & Michael Heller Thursday, June 8, 2006 7:00 PM Magers and Quinn Bookstore, 3038 Hennepin Avenue S Mpls, MN 55408 \ 612 822 4611 Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003) and Uncertain Poetries: Selected Essays (2005) available from Salt Publishing at www.saltpublishing.com and at both regular and online bookstores. For a survey of work, poems, essays, prose, go to: http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm --=======AVGMAIL-447B70127A91======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2A451D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006 --=======AVGMAIL-447B70127A91=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:06:35 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: post modern? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nick, would you backchannel me? I don't have your email adress. Wystan=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Nick Piombino Sent: Saturday, 27 May 2006 8:53 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? Not long ago I asked Ann Lauterbach for her definition of post modernism. Her idea was that modernists take as their locus the self, the hub of the wheel, post modernists others, the spokes of the wheel. Nick P. On 5/26/06 4:14 PM, "Maria Damon" wrote: > Or...Langpo Sitcom!!! >=20 > At 10:25 AM -0700 5/26/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>> Could you please explain why do you think Bernstein's poetry is=20 >>> post-modern and Silliman's poetry is not ? Or why is Tarantino=20 >>> post-modern ? >>=20 >> I think a Tarantino movie starring Ron and Charles as bank robbers=20 >> might make a lovely comedy - I guess it would have to be=20 >> 'post-modern' or maybe they could pretend they were "modern" or,=20 >> drawing up plans, argue whether or not they were one or the other.=20 >> I'll let anybody's imagination do the rest. >>=20 >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> Currently home of the Tenderly series, >> A serial work in progress. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 08:22:48 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20060529175433.04b28678@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 30/5/06 8:02 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > I do think that you've > illustrated the meaningless of the term, tho, by stretching it way too far. You reckon? I was talking about larger movements in human history, in which such a word might make sense, and said there were no clear borders (look! Cross this line and we're Modern!) You might as well say that Triassic and Jurassic make no sense because they're too vague. And really, there had been catastrophic mass slaughter many times before WW1. Think of Tamerlane or Genghis Khan. What there hasn't been is the potential mass destruction of the natural world by human effort. The Aral Sea and what Stalin did to it, the vast chemical pollution of Europe and parts of America, the deforestation of huge areas of the planet...if you want a clear shift of consciousness, the dropping of the nuclear bomb seems as good a marker as any. It's the marker used by Martin Esslin as the sign that ushered in Absurdist theatre. Which also seems to me a decent enough argument that this shift had profound cultural resonances. It's certainly the only way in which post Modern (Modern being the Renaissance/Hamlet self consciousness) makes sense to me. Best A PS Sorry about the mess of headers here. I'm trying to fix it up, but the Buffalo Poetic web page is impenetrable... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:04:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: Re: another shot at post modernism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: There were lots of feminists in the classic days of modernism..... [the rest deleted to save band width] >>>>>>>>>>. Yes, agreed, of course, and I agree in general with the rest of your post [no tomatoes from me]. Inevitably, we have to give in and start talking about early, middle, & late modernism [and before that, early, middle, & late romanticism as well]. These -isms are always unsatisfying, and I'm willing to drop the term post modernism when a better alternative surfaces. Are we at a point where we can talk about early, middle, & late post modernism? I don't think so. Not quite yet. But when we do, maybe that better label will have become established. But aren't there significant differences between early feminism, middle feminism, and late feminism as well? Would a Judith Butler have had a significant audience pre-1950? Would a film like "Paris is Burning", where the art of 'passing' as a woman when you are a man is celebrated, have had a significant audience pre-1950 -- Djuna Barnes & friends notwithstanding? And Queer theory? What audience would there have been among modernists for what we now call graphic novels? Would the modernist masters have liked Paul Auster's novels? Chris Burden's performance pieces? John Cage's music? Mapplethorpe's photos? Maybe a Kafka could have liked this stuff, but an Eliot, a Pound? How prepared for the late 20th century "linguistic turn" would our early modernists have been? How would they have responded to Foucault & Derrida et al? I don't have easy answers to these questions Actually, I find etymology far easier to deal with. Etymology, anyone? George. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:07:36 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Speech Into Writing--Muzzy's Story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Muzzy’s Story Whit Parrot Whit Parrot was an old man who lived with his dog and his mule in Virginia up on the mountain near where Mother and me lived. One day some men came through and said they was a-going to Tennessee and Maw said “You can’t git there from going this a-way, but if you go over yonder you can git there.” Mother made some food for them and they went to a cave and stayed the night. Then, next day, they went over Whit Parrot’s and tied him up and robbed him of all his Confederate money! Well, we didn’t hear nor see anything of Whit for two days and Maw said, “I better git over there and see if anything’s the matter.” Well, she knocked on the door and he was sitting tied up-like, you know. And Mother knocked on the door and finally she just opened the door and he was in there tied up and Maw saw him sitting stiff-like, and he said “They robbed me and it’s your fault, Miss Kinder and they turned over every stone and took my Confederate money and that’s what saved me.” And Maw said, “Sit still while I untie you.” And he said, “I’m stiff!” And she said, “Well you won’t be stiff when I’m a-through with you.” And she untied him and got him loose. Then she fed him some food and he got up and about again. She used to bring him food ‘cause he was so old. Whit’d ride that old mule of his across the fields and he’d cuss up a storm! He was 80-sum years old when he died and now I’m almost 94. Thurmont, Maryland, March 18th, 2006. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 00:10:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Reminder: Edwin Torres & Dawn Raffel at KGB Bar, NYC, Thursday night June 1st MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Just a reminder about our free Mad Hatters' Review Poetry, Prose & Anything Goes Series Reading No. 2 at the KGB Bar in the East Village, NYC this Thursday 7-9 pm: EDWIN TORRES, DAWN RAFFEL and actor DOUG SHAPIRO. Original live abstract saxophone music included. Details are available on our Mad Hatters' Review Events page. Questions? Please email madhattersreview@gmail.com. In dementia perpetua, Carol Novack Pulbisher/Editor -- MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ http://nowwhatblog.blogspot.com http://www.webdelsol.com/eSCENE/series20.html http://webdelsol.com/PortalDelSol/pds-interview-mhr.htm "It is time for writers to admit that nothing in this world makes sense. Only fools and charlatans think they know and understand everything." (Chekhov) -- MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ http://nowwhatblog.blogspot.com http://www.webdelsol.com/eSCENE/series20.html http://webdelsol.com/PortalDelSol/pds-interview-mhr.htm "It is time for writers to admit that nothing in this world makes sense. Only fools and charlatans think they know and understand everything." (Chekhov) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:42:20 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: New On The Ahadada Books Blog--Secret Kitty Fashions! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Catherine Daly's new line of Secret Kitty Fashions is now available for purchase! Check out the details on the Ahadada Books Blog at www.ahadadabooks.com., and while you're at it, read the book that started it all for FREE. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:26:43 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: How about 'Formalesque'? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Poeticists - Worried about postmodernism ? Why not try The Formalesque ? An Australian art historian called Bernard Smith reckons it's a goer - http://wwwistp.murdoch.edu.au/publications/e_public/amhope/smith.html His book 'Modernism's History :A study in twentieth-century art and ideas' extrapolates on this left-of-field concept. All the best, Pam Brown _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:40:05 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: Dear Alexander Saliby In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Alexander, There's a collection of essays/articles from a 1985 conference on postmodernism that was held at the ICA (Institute of Contemporary Arts) in the UK . It's called simply 'Postmodernism:ICA Documents' and was edited by Lisa Appignanesi, published by Free Association Books in London in 1989. Jean-Francois Lyotard, Martin Jay, Jacques Derrida, Geoff Bennington, Angela McRobbie and others. I found it useful some years ago. Perhaps you might too. All good wishes, Pam _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 03:28:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: TbT HIMALAYA and SMURFLAND NEWS--ALEX Comments: To: Thomas Clouse , josh hinck , Ray Jorgensen , John Joyce , Peter Klauza , Jonathan Litton , Bob Marcacci , Phillip Nessen , Stephen Nessen , Harry Nudel , Jake Schall , Lillian Stapleton , Bobby Tam In-Reply-To: <20060528081412.79468.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit three km up from the valley, donkeys, man as pack animals, and got this flyer from an amerian girl asking me about ecotourism, and I told her, before we worry about all those middle class kids coming over here, mostly girls, young women, and having them have their jungle sex, how about doing something about the pollution affecting these mountainsides, that are about basic hygeine, and we finally moved my friend. The Tibetans are more like Indians than Chinese, American, for their sense of individualsim, than chinese, and liberty, one could argue, should start here. 6 million people, no more, could become extinct, like the Chinese did to the Manchu--or are trying in Xingjiang. It's the government, which liscenses writers to write, authorizes their very existence, or kills them, jails them. It's hot, traffic jams in Shangrila, as rich westerners pass through looking for redemption, little regard for the Tibetans here, an economy developing and based on serving the rich and serve the survents, a little girl lost her legs today and I slushed through her blood, all the while black indians pointed at me, and I waved, their hands no more than stubs--fingers lost in clan wars. 2 aj --- Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > I am sleeping on a cold, wet floor in Himalaya. It > is > a very real life, as Creeley would've said. Days on > wearing a wet t-shirt and having joints well > exposes, > if even under a soaked comforter makes the skin on > one's back tingle, itch and burn, as if being bitten > by thousands of gnats. We paid our friend's > apartment > overdue. We moved him out today and paid 3 months on > a > clean place, free of all the donkey shit, rubbish, > spiders half the size of a hand, into what is a > clean > cottage, communal, where monks are living. I will > start worked at the monestary on Monday. The writing > is going well and have organized some cooperative > among the writers. Beijing School... I will also > read > tomorrow evening. For those of who are Americans, it > is this idea of individualism, the considerate basis > of liberty, and the fate of all those injuns who are > at best mestizos--or mickey house and indianhead > dollars. This is real, dangerous, and some one's got > to stand up, push aside all that fascade, and stop: > "doing little more then staking out and defending > one's insular existence." > > page1-- > aj > > --- > Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of > virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I > mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art > that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --- Good art however "immoral" is wholly a thing of virtue. Good art can NOT be immoral. By good art I mean art that bears true witness, I mean the art that is most precise. -- Ezra Pound __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 09:25:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Reading in Baltimore Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed If you happen to be in Baltimore this weekend-- i.e. reading series- Clayton & Co. Fine Books 317 N. Charles Street Baltimore, MD 21201 410-752-6800 Saturday- June 3rd- 4pm - 6pm Mark Wallace, Laura Sims, Michael Kelleher Mark Wallace is the author of a number of books and chapbooks of =20 poetry, including Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There and =20 Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner. Temporary Worker Rides A Subway won the =20 2002 Gertrude Stein Poetry Award and was published by Green Integer =20 Books. His multi-genre work Haze (Edge Books) was published in 2004, =20 as was his novel Dead Carnival (Avec Books). His critical articles =20 and reviews have appeared in numerous publications, and along with =20 Steven Marks, he edited Telling It Slant: Avant Garde Poetics of the =20 1990s (University of Alabama Press) a collection of 26 essays by =20 different writers on the subject of contemporary avant garde poetry =20 and poetics. He is currently Assistant Professor of Creative Writing =20 at California State University San Marcos. Laura Sims=92s first book of poetry, Practice, Restraint, recipient of =20= the 2005 Fence Books Alberta Prize, was published in November. She =20 was recently awarded a JUSFC / NEA Creative Artist Exchange =20 Fellowship to spend six months in Japan in 2006. She has published =20 two chapbooks: Bank Book (Answer Tag Press) and Paperback Book (3rd =20 Bed), and her poems have appeared in the journals First Intensity, =20 26, How2, 6X6, and 3rd Bed, among others. She lives in Madison, =20 Wisconsin, where she teaches creative writing and composition. Michael Kelleher is the author of To Be Sung (Blazevox, 2005), as =20 well as the chapbooks Cuba (Phylum, 2002), Bacchanalia (Quinella, =20 1999) and The Necessary Elephant (Ota Molloy, 1998). His poems, =20 essays and reviews have appeared in Slope, ecopoetics, The Poetry =20 Project Newsletter, The Buffalo News, Kiosk and others. He lives in =20 Buffalo, NY, where works as Artistic Director for Just Buffalo =20 Literary Center and as literary editor of Artvoice, the alternative =20 weekly. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:45:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: How about 'Formalesque'? In-Reply-To: <20060530072643.63224.qmail@web33201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't know about the new term, but the history seems close to spot-on. Mark At 03:26 AM 5/30/2006, you wrote: >Dear Poeticists - > >Worried about postmodernism ? >Why not try The Formalesque ? > >An Australian art historian called Bernard Smith >reckons it's a goer - > >http://wwwistp.murdoch.edu.au/publications/e_public/amhope/smith.html > >His book 'Modernism's History :A study in >twentieth-century art and ideas' extrapolates on this >left-of-field concept. > >All the best, >Pam Brown > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ >Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ >Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html >_________________________________________________________________ > > > >____________________________________________________ >On Yahoo!7 >Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! >http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:53:30 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "sgambito@juno.com" Subject: Shaken Not Stirred: A Reading Benefit for Alice James Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain = On June 11th, come on out and hear beautiful words, enjoy one hour of op= en bar and support Alice James Books-- a non-profit cooperative poetry p= ress which has as its mission to seek out and publish the best contempor= ary poetry by both established and beginning poets. Arts, activism and = luscious martinis all in the same night. Not bad for an easy Sunday=85.= = = When: Sunday, June 11th = What Time: 4 - 5 pm (Open Bar), Reading Starts at 5 pm How Much: $5. = = Where: Verlaine 110 Rivington St. (Ludlow & Essex Sts.) 212-614-2494 = F train to Delancey or V train to 2nd Ave = All proceeds will benefit Alice James Books. www.alicejamesbooks.org = = = Readers: Kazim Ali is the author The Far Mosque (Alice James Books). His poems an= d essays have appeared in such journals as The Iowa Review, Colorado Rev= iew, Hayden=92s Ferry Review and Catamaran, and in the anthologies Writi= ng the Lines of Our Hands and Risen From the East. A graduate of the Cre= ative Writing Program at New York University, he is the author of a nove= l, Quinn=92s Passage. He is the publisher of Nightboat Books and assista= nt professor of English at Shippensburg University. Sarah Gambito is the author of Matadora (Alice James Books). Her poems h= ave appeared or are forthcoming in The Iowa Review, The Antioch Review, = Denver Quarterly, The New Republic, Field, Quarterly West, Fence and oth= er journals. She holds degrees from The University of Virginia and The C= reative Writing Program at Brown University. She teaches at Rutgers Univ= ersity and Baruch College. Alessandra Lynch is the author of Sails the Wind Left Behind (Alice Jame= s Books). She was raised North of New York City. She holds a BA from Sa= rah Lawrence College and an MFA from the University of Iowa Writers's Wo= rkshop. Her poems have appeared in the American Poetry Review, Hayden's = Ferry Review, Ploughshares, Quarterly West, and other journals. = Jean-Paul Pecqueur has worked as a fish canner, garment worker, furnitur= e mover, and substitute teacher. He has also taught at the University of= Washington, the University of Arizona=92s Poetry Center, and the Pratt = Institute. His first volume of poetry, The Case Against Happiness, will = be published by Alice James Press in the autumn of 2006. = Director of the Poetry Center at Smith College, Ellen Dor=E9 Watson is t= he author of Ladder Music and We Live in Bodies (Alice James Books), as = well as Broken Railings (Green Lake Chapbook Prize, Owl Creek Press). Sh= e is also the translator of eleven books from Brazilian Portuguese, incl= uding The Alphabet in the Park: Selected Poems of Ad=E9lia Prado (Wesley= an University Press, 1990), and serves as Translation Editor of The Mass= achusetts Review. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: OlsonNow Updates Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed On the blog: Kevin Marzahl Responds to Ben Friedlander on specialization http://olsonnow.blogspot.com/ On the docs page: Now Available Danuta Borchardt/Cranberry Juice in a Glass: Based on a few events =20 from Charles Olson=92s life in Gloucester, Massachusetts http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/olson/blog/ If anyone was at the MIT event and would like to write a scene report =20= to put on the blog, I'd be much obliged, as I was here in Buffalo =20 celebrating Olson's compadre, Robert Creeley, and couldn't make it. Send reports, papers, etc. to olsonnow@gmail.com= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:09:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Shaken Not Stirred: A Reading Benefit for Alice James Books In-Reply-To: <20060530.075354.21868.28553@webmail61.nyc.untd.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable it sounds wonderful & I wd have loved to hear all of you but am going to a wedding. glad to hear abt events in ny. good luck, ruth On 5/30/06 10:53 AM, "sgambito@juno.com" wrote: > =20 > On June 11th, come on out and hear beautiful words, enjoy one hour of ope= n bar > and support Alice James Books-- a non-profit cooperative poetry press whi= ch > has as its mission to seek out and publish the best contemporary poetry b= y > both established and beginning poets. Arts, activism and luscious martin= is > all in the same night. Not bad for an easy Sunday=E2=88=91. >=20 >=20 > =20 > When: Sunday, June 11th > =20 > What Time: 4 - 5 pm (Open Bar), Reading Starts at 5 pm >=20 > How Much: $5. =20 > =20 > Where: Verlaine > 110 Rivington St. > (Ludlow & Essex Sts.) > 212-614-2494=20 > F train to Delancey or V train to 2nd Ave > =20 > All proceeds will benefit Alice James Books. www.alicejamesbooks.org > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > Readers: >=20 > Kazim Ali is the author The Far Mosque (Alice James Books). His poems and > essays have appeared in such journals as The Iowa Review, Colorado Review= , > Hayden=E2=80=9As Ferry Review and Catamaran, and in the anthologies Writing the= Lines > of Our Hands and Risen From the East. A graduate of the Creative Writing > Program at New York University, he is the author of a novel, Quinn=E2=80=9As Pa= ssage. > He is the publisher of Nightboat Books and assistant professor of English= at > Shippensburg University. >=20 > Sarah Gambito is the author of Matadora (Alice James Books). Her poems ha= ve > appeared or are forthcoming in The Iowa Review, The Antioch Review, Denve= r > Quarterly, The New Republic, Field, Quarterly West, Fence and other journ= als. > She holds degrees from The University of Virginia and The Creative Writin= g > Program at Brown University. She teaches at Rutgers University and Baruch > College. >=20 > Alessandra Lynch is the author of Sails the Wind Left Behind (Alice James > Books). She was raised North of New York City. She holds a BA from Sarah > Lawrence College and an MFA from the University of Iowa Writers's Worksho= p. > Her poems have appeared in the American Poetry Review, Hayden's Ferry Rev= iew, > Ploughshares, Quarterly West, and other journals. >=20 > Jean-Paul Pecqueur has worked as a fish canner, garment worker, furniture > mover, and substitute teacher. He has also taught at the University of > Washington, the University of Arizona=E2=80=9As Poetry Center, and the Pratt > Institute. His first volume of poetry, The Case Against Happiness, will b= e > published by Alice James Press in the autumn of 2006. >=20 > Director of the Poetry Center at Smith College, Ellen Dor=C3=A9 Watson is the > author of Ladder Music and We Live in Bodies (Alice James Books), as well= as > Broken Railings (Green Lake Chapbook Prize, Owl Creek Press). She is also= the > translator of eleven books from Brazilian Portuguese, including The Alpha= bet > in the Park: Selected Poems of Ad=C3=A9lia Prado (Wesleyan University Press, = 1990), > and serves as Translation Editor of The Massachusetts Review. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:12:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Etymology etc. In-Reply-To: A<4478BF7A.9030805@adelphia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear George Sorry for replying late. Are you suggesting that in order to understand my mother tongue and/or Sanskrit, I have to read etymological dictionaries in Proto-Indo-Aryan German and French ? I don't get this. I need to read "The etymologies in the ancient Indian Brahmanas" by an American (?) / European (?) author to understand my language ? I am a Brahman myself (although I am averse to the idea of practising religion, I don't) and come from a family that has taught/researched/preserved/restored Bengali and Vedic texts for about six hundred years (that's as far back we could follow our family tree). My grandfather restored very rare Vaishnav and Vedic texts, my father taught ancient Indian History and vernacular languages at Calcutta University all his life. Our family donated these texts to the Indian National Library at Calcutta where they can be found today. I first learned Sanskrit and Hindi at grade seven. And yes, I can read some German and French. One of the fundamental Sanskrit stotras I learned during my upanayan (sacred thread ceremony) said - you need to feel like dust first, weightless and insignificant, need an exercise in humility before the language could be learned. Gyan or knowledge could only reach a soul that is comely and humble. You seem to leave no scope for that in your rather didactic messages. And what is a "Sanskritist" by the way ? There is no such word in the Sanskrit world. Did you mean "sanskRitagga" ? I referred to Bengali etymology, (not Sanskrit) which is not an "old folk etymology" (as you have dismissed it as) by any means. Like most other classical Indian mainstream languages Bengali has several tatasama words which are originally Sanskrit. If you could check any standard Bengali etymological lexicon (most Bengali lexicons discuss word origins) you would see that the words "ashba", "akshi" "akshar" are all derived from "ash" dhaatu (root- word) and that the adi words had several meanings (not connotations), some of which are self-contradictory. You seem to dismiss the texts I referred to (by several Bengali scholars) most disrespectfully. Sorry to say, your precocity is audacious. I find it offensive. Anyway, I'll shut up for good. I am a poet who doesn't like to debate, but discuss, which is not happening on this topic. If the poet is a potter, syntax, semantics, etymology etc. only help him feel the clay he plays with - language. If this is "off-topic" in a LANGPO forum, I probably don't understand Language Poetry. Thanks Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of george thompson Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 5:07 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: post modern? *Dear Aryanil, I can refer to several etymological dictionaries of Old Indo-Aryan in German and French, as well as dictionaries of Proto-Indo-European in German, French, Russian, Italian and English, if you could read them. What you have in these Bengali sources is an old folk etymology. If you are serious about looking into this, check out this article, an old classic: "The etymologies in the ancient Indian Brahmanas" by Jan Gonda, in *Lingua* 5, 1955. You should stick with the poetics. Avoid the etymologies. George * ========================================================================== I can refer to several scholarly articles by P.C.Sen, Kalim Khan, Sukumar Sen et al, if you could read them in Bengali. "akshara", "akshi" "ashva" are all derived from "ash" dhaatu. Aryanil > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 08:17:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Healing Spirit of Haiku" review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rain Taxi review of "The Healing Spirit of Haiku: http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2006spring/haiku.shtml -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 08:39:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: How about 'Formalesque'? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pam, Mr. Smith's work bears further examination. Thank you for pointing it = out. =20 I share a prejudice espoused in the essay in that I hold firmly to the = belief that those living in the age...either early on or at the = waning...are in no position to label themselves from an historical = perspective. =20 Mr. Smith suggests that the label "modernist" will be expanded to drape = over the current postmodernists in a kind of broader umbrella of the = term modernism. What I embrace from that thought is the implicit that = the distinctions between the moderns and the postmoderns are = insignificant when one views performance from a broader perspective = historically. It isn't so much that art in 1930 lacks differentiation = from say art (or make them architecture, or even poetry) of 1980, indeed = there are recognizable, identifiable elements differentiating the end = results. It's more the philosophical precepts of the creators aren't = really all that different. =20 In any event, I'll return to Mr. Smith's work.=20 Alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pam Brown=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:26 AM Subject: How about 'Formalesque'? Dear Poeticists - Worried about postmodernism ? Why not try The Formalesque ? An Australian art historian called Bernard Smith reckons it's a goer - = http://wwwistp.murdoch.edu.au/publications/e_public/amhope/smith.html His book 'Modernism's History :A study in twentieth-century art and ideas' extrapolates on this left-of-field concept. All the best, Pam Brown _________________________________________________________________ Blog : = http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - = http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - = http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________=20 On Yahoo!7=20 Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles!=20 http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 08:41:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Nick Moudry's "High noon" on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Nick Moudry is the rare poet who has found a way to incorporate formal elegance into work with a “conceptual” edge. His long poem “High noon”, released as a chapbook by Indivia in 2005, is at once an elegiac meditation on the fall of America, an indictment of the “cowboy” mentality that has precipitated this fall, a whimsical Surrealistic exploration of “self & non-self”, an exercise in economical melopoeia & a mysterious beacon from an elusive sensibility." Nick Moudry's excellent long poem "High noon" is up on PFS Post (www.artrecess.blogspot.com). Also, lots new on Stoning the Devil (www.adamfieled.blogspot.com). --------------------------------- Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 04:34:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: 1 Fw: Vision Festival XI in TWO WEEKS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TWO WEEKS LEFT!! Vision Festival XI runs from Monday, June 12 - Sunday, June 18 FESTIVAL SCHEDULE BELOW! Or visit http://www.visionfestival.org for more info. To buy advance tickets, contact Downtown Music Gallery at (212) 473-0043 or toll tree: (800) 622-1387 or visit them online at http://dtmgallery.com/Main/index.htm VISION FESTIVAL XI COMPLETE SCHEDULE at Angel Orensanz Center - 172 Norfolk Street (S. of Houston) June 12 through June 18, 2006 Tix $25/night or $125 for festival pass VISION FESTIVAL FILM SERIES 2006 Monday, June 12 Anthology Film Archives (32 2nd Ave @ 2nd St) Tix at the door: $8, $6 students & seniors (not included in festival pass) 7pm - Session #1 1) musicWitness®: GENESIS & TESTIMONY (2006 - on the work of Jeff Schlanger) Directed by Robert O'Haire. Edited by Jeff Burns (30 min). 2) DAVID S. WARE: A PORTRAIT (2000) Directed by Arthur Cemin & Romain Wentzo (53 min). 3) RAPHE MALIK: REFLECTIONS (2006) Directed by Michael Lucio Sternbach (15 min). 9pm - Session #2 SAM RIVERS RETROSPECTIVE Films celebrating the life and work of saxophonist Sam Rivers Concert footage and interviews from throughout his 40yr career approx. 105 min LIVE PERFORMANCES at Angel Orensanz Center - 172 Norfolk Street (S. of Houston) June 13 through June 18, 2006 Tuesday, June 13 6:30pm Opening Invocation: David Budbill, William Parker and Joseph Jarman 7pm Raphe Malik Memorial Tribute: Sabir Mateen (rds), Roy Campbell (trpt), Lewis Barnes (trpt), Marshall Allen (rds), Dave Burrell (p), William Parker (b), Warren Smith (dr) 8pm Klaas Hekman Trio: Klaas Hekman (bs sax), Fred Lonberg-Holm (cello) Veryan Weston (p) 9pm Borah Bergman (p) / William Parker (b) / Rashied Ali (dms) 10pm Dave Burrell (p) / Billy Martin (dms) Wednesday, June 14 ­ Sam Rivers Lifetime Achievement 7pm Rivbea Orchestra Sam Rivers (tnr and sop sax, fl, pno, comp) Mike Iapichino, Tom Parmerter, Brian Scanlon, Dave Jones (trpts) Brian Mackie, Daniel Jordan, Chris Charles, Jeff Rupert, David Pate (rds) Keith Oshiro, Dave Sheffield, Joe King (tmbs), Joshua Parsons (tuba) Doug Mathews (el. bass, bass) Anthony Cole (dms) 8:30pm Grachan Moncur III Quartet + Guests: Grachan Moncur III (tmb), Calvin Hill (bs), Noriko Kamo (pno), Richard Pearson (dr) +Gsts Philly Connection: Khan Jamal (vbs), Byard Lancaster (tnr) 9:30pm Warren Smith¹s Studio WIS Alumni Band: Warren Smith (dr), Roy Campbell (trpt), Andrew Lamb (tnr, fl), Jack Jeffers (bs trb), Howard Johnson (tuba), Jaribu Shahid (bs) 10:30pm Sam Rivers Trio: Sam Rivers, Doug Matthews (b), Anthony Cole (d) Thursday, June 15 7pm Paul Rutherford Trio: Paul Rutherford (tmb), Torsten Müller (b), Dylan van der Schyff (dms) 8pm John Coltrane Tribute Band: Roy Campbell (tpt), Louis Belogenis (ts) Andrew Bemkey (p), Reggie Workman (b), Rashied Ali (dms) Steve Dalachinsky (poet) 9pm Maria Naidu (dnc) / Dennis Gonzalez (trpt) 9:30pm Day & Taxi: Christoph Gallio (sop), Christian Weber (b) Michael Griener (d) 10:30pm Bill Dixon (trpt) / George Lewis (tmb): Videosonic Projections Friday, June 16 5pm PANEL DISCUSSION NYC Community Arts Organizing: What¹s Wrong in Gotham? 7pm Donald Byrd Spectrum Dance Theater w/ Hamid Drake (perc.) 7:30pm Hamid Drake¹s Bindu: Hamid Drake (dms), Sabir Mateen (rds), Daniel Carter (rds), Greg Ward (rds), Ernest Dawkins (rds) 8:30pm Rob Brown Quartet: Rob Brown (as), Craig Taborn (p), William Parker (b), Gerald Cleaver (dms) 9:30pm Billy Bang Quintet: Billy Bang (vln), James Zollar (trpt) Andrew Bemkey (p), Todd Nicholson (b), Newman Taylor Baker (dms) 10:30pm Henry Grimes (b) / Sekou Sundiata (poet) + MIDNIGHT AFTERPARTY AT MO PITKINS (34 Avenue A btwn 2nd and 3rd) Featuring Dennis Gonzalez and Friends! $5 w/ festival stamp $10 others Saturday Afternoon, June 17 - The New Generation 1pm Ras Moshe and The Music Now Unit: Ras Moshe (rds), Matt Lavelle (trpt), Tor Yochai Snyder (gtr), Matt Heyner (bs), Todd Nicholson (bs), Jackson Krall (dr) 2pm Yusuke Yamamoto Duo: Yusuke Yamamoto (vbs), Ben Monder (gtr) 3pm Matana Roberts' Mississippi Moonchile: Matana Roberts (rds), Matt Bauder (tnr), Thomson Kneeland (bs), Tomas Fujiwara (dr), Tyshawn Sorey (pno) 4pm Lafayette Gilchrist (pno) / Hamid Drake (perc) Saturday Evening, June 17 5pm PANEL DISCUSSION New Orleans 2006: Understanding and Responding 7pm Slammin' The Infinite: Steve Swell (tmb), Sabir Mateen (reeds), Matthew Heyner (bs), Klaus Kugel (dms), w/ guest John Blum (pno) 8pm Roscoe Mitchell & the Chicago Quartet: Roscoe Mitchell (rds, perc), Corey Wilkes (tpt), Harrison Bankhead (b), Vincent Davis (dms) 9pm Joe Morris (gtr) / Barre Philips (b) 10pm Jason Kao Hwang¹s EDGE: Jason Kao Hwang (vln), Taylor Ho Bynum (crnt), Ken Filiano (b), Andrew Drury (dms) 11pm By Any Means: Rashied Ali (dms), Charles Gayle (sax) William Parker (b) Sunday Early Evening, June 18 3pm PANEL DISCUSSION Artist-Organized Presentations in Jazz: 1970 to 2006 and Beyond 5pm Miya Masaoka (koto, laser koto, elec.), Sylvie Courvoisier (pno), Peggy Lee (cello) 6pm Kidd Jordan Quartet: Kidd Jordan (ts), Joel Futterman (p, sax), William Parker (b), Alvin Fielder (dms) 7pm Patricia Nicholson (dnc), William Parker (b), Hamid Drake (dms) Jo Wood Brown (vis art) 8pm Whit Dickey Ensemble: Whit Dickey (dms), Daniel Levin (cello), Mat Moran (vbs) 9pm David S. Ware Quartet: Final US Performance Ever!!! David S. Ware (ts), Matthew Shipp (p), William Parker (b), Guillermo E. Brown (dms) VISUAL ARTISTS AT VISION FESTIVAL XI Anne Humanfeld Alain Kirili Margaret Lampe Kannenstine Ariane Lopez-Huici Bill Mazza Victor Melamed Yuko Otomo Jorgo Schafer Jeff Schlanger Maura Sheehan Zak Sherzad Marilyn Sontag Photographers Jacques Bisceglia Stefania Errore Ziga Koritnik ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 04:30:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: postmodernisit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just another fkin label ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:52:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Kimmelman Reading in Brooklyn Comments: cc: kimmelma@NJIT.EDU, amcintos@optonline.net, tafink@verizon.net, sdolin@earthlink.net, Millers@stjohns.edu, AugustineJane@cs.com, Madeline Tiger , Patricia Carlin , Harriet zinnes , ERTABIOS@aol.com, TALISMANED@aol.com, Gpwitd@aol.com, chard deNiord , Bazink@aol.com, Susan Terris , Dan Morris , ConRobins@aol.com, jacquelyn pope , Sazibree@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burt Kimmelman will be reading new work (with perhaps a few oldies thrown in) on June 12th at 9 PM at The Empty Vessel in Carroll Gardens / Red Hook, Brooklyn (400 Caroll Street). See: http://emptyvesselproject.org/. and http://log.emptyvesselproject.org/. All are welcome! Other Upcoming Poetry Readings by Burt Kimmelman: Symposia Bookstore, June 9th, 8 PM Symposia Bookstore 510 Washington Street (near Fifth Street) Hoboken, NJ 07030 201- 963-0909 info@symposia.us See: http://www.symposia.us/ And see: http://symposia.us/article.php?id=35 and Morningside Books, June 15th, 7 PM Morningside Books 2915 Broadway (at 114th Street) New York City, New York 10025 (Yahoo! Maps, Google Maps) Phone: (212) 222-3350 Peter@MorningsideBookshop.com See: http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/34291293 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:07:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Blackbox live! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, The spring Blackbox gallery is now online. Enjoy! And, as always, thanks to everyone for supporting my little project. To view Blackbox, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Then take a stroll (scroll) through the galleries until you arrive at the spring 2006 edition. There's plenty to enjoy along the way. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com SPDbooks.org Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:11:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: How about 'Formalesque'? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain the problem, of course, is that these two terms are overlapping, not substitutes for one another -- much as we've had the problem of people conflating postmodernism and poststructuralism in ways that they probably would not confuse modernism and structuralism -- and while there are competing versions of the postmodern (and many here will know that I lean far more toward the Lyotard side than to Jamesons's sympomatologies), I confess that I have never quite grasped why so many find "postmodern" a more problematic term than "modernism" -- Olson's version of the postmodern, rooted more in philosophical disagreements than in categories of stylistic features, strikes me still as closer to the mark than, say, Ihab Hassan, to invoke an already almost forgotten name -- On Tue, 30 May 2006 17:26:43 +1000, Pam Brown wrote: > Dear Poeticists - > > Worried about postmodernism ? > Why not try The Formalesque ? > > An Australian art historian called Bernard Smith > reckons it's a goer - > > http://wwwistp.murdoch.edu.au/publications/e_public/amhope/smith.html > > His book 'Modernism's History :A study in > twentieth-century art and ideas' extrapolates on this > left-of-field concept. > > All the best, > Pam Brown > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ > Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > ____________________________________________________ > On Yahoo!7 > Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! > http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:44:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Marcus Bales wrote: > Well, explain what your claim IS, then. Maybe they ARE good examples > of whatever else it is you're claiming, but they're not good examples > that we live in a time when the human condition has changed in any > significant way. On 30 May 2006 at 7:34, Alison Croggon wrote: > A defining aspect of what might be called the post modern seems to > me the ability for human beings to destroy the planet.< Pfui. We can only destroy more people than ever before, perhaps all of us. But after the nuclear apocalypse something will replace this cycle of life as this one replaced the "Dinosaur Cycle", for lack of a better term, after the meteor apocalypse. Besides, entire populations and cultures have been continually destroyed through the aeons by disease and genocide. It's not "post- modern" to fear extinction of one's self, family, clan, city, region, culture. Human history is the history of such extinctions. To fear such extinction cannot reasonably be held to be "post-modern" unless you're prepared to say that pretty much all of human history is "post- modern" -- which one imagines is beyond what even the theorists of the post-modern are willing to say. Still, even if you are willing to say such a thing, I don't see how it gets us any closer to why a movie-set fire hydrant momentarily mistaken for a real one (or any other of thes examples offered) is emblematic of what is distinctively post-modern about the potential destruction of human life on the planet. On 30 May 2006 at 7:34, Alison Croggon wrote: > ... the Modern: rationalistic science evolving out of superstition, > modern medicine based on observation of actual human bodies moving > on from Galen, exploration and the New World, a huge expansion of > European colonisation, mass Revolution, and so on.< This implies at least three human eras: pre-Modern, Modern, and post- Modern. That would seem to imply in turn that the most important era is the Modern, and that most of our effort should go into defining what distinguishes the Modern from the pre- and the post-. It comes close to reifying the Modern as a Golden Age, the test by which we measure the pre- and the post-. But in the Modern era we must put Hitler and WWII and the Holocaust -- some Golden Age! And the Nazis were defeated without the use of the atomic bomb, remember: Germany surrendered before Nagasaki and Hiroshima. But perhaps that's what you mean by using the a-bomb as a turning point: that the US irrationally feared the Japanse in a way it did not fear the Germans, and so could justify dropping the bomb? Are you, too, suggesting that the post-modern condition is really a reversion to "the deeper man returns to his archaic, primordial, pre-rationalist condition, the further beyond modernism he advances"? In other words, there are not really three eras of Man, but two: pre- and post- Modernism, which are both eras of archaic, primordial, non- rationalist conditions, and Modernism, which is rationalist and, well, modern and modern. On 30 May 2006 at 7:34, Alison Croggon wrote: > Once they dropped the bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Man took on > the abilities of a God and could make his own apocalypse. This tended > to undermine the rationalist faith that inhabited the Modern, and > shifted the relationship between Man and Nature, which is to say, Man and > everything else.< I argue that in the face of the established zealotry of the Japanese religion-driven empire and the feared zealotry of the communist- driven empire, it was rational to demonstrate a willingness to drop the bomb on zealots. In fact it did demonstrate to the Soviets that the US was both equipped and prepared to draw a line and enforce it. Dropping the bomb was not just the final shot in WWII, it was the first shot in the Cold War. The world today is such a wealthy and mobile place, so tolerant of diversity, that zealots can come here, and buy the training they need to attack us. Which communist was it who said "The capitalists will sell us the rope we use to hang them"? Soon zealots will be poisoning the water, and setting off dirty bombs to pollute the air and ground, and releasing diseases and poison gases. Hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of us will die because of the work of a few hundred or a few thousand people who are trying to demolish the world of wealth and diversity that rationality has constructed, however imperfectly. There is no one to go to war against, no one to threaten with nuclear obliteration, so that the balance of mutual threat can be maintained. What the zealots are doing is criminal blackmail, and they should be treated as criminal blackmailers, not as soldiers in a war. However many people they can kill they are still only able to kill some few of us, so long as we keep our rational wits about us, so long as we treat them as a criminal gang, instead of trying to hold their religion or their ethnicity against them, and get fooled into starting the war that they desire. But it is rationality, not zealotry, that will get us around this problem. The zealotry, the post-modernism, that you advocate, the irrationality of post-modernism, the archaic primordialism of post- modernism, that you advocate, is carrying water for the Bush League, providing intellectual cover for people who are themselves zealots. It does the world no good to advocate post-modernism that appeals to the irrational, to the archaic primordialism, that produced the Crusades, and the Hundred Years' and the Thirty Years' and the other wars of religion. In fact, it plays right into the hands of the zealots who are trying to start the next religious war, the next clash of cultures, to advocate that we have no choice but to look to post-modernism defined as an appeal to primordial, archaic, and irrational responses to the world around us; that we have no choice but to react post-modernly, which is to say, archaically, primordially, and irrationally. Well, to hell with that. I say rationality is the better way. On 30 May 2006 at 7:34, Alison Croggon wrote: > Now we're well on the way to a mass extinction of the planet's > species, which has never happened before.< Sure it has: the dinosaurs together with 90+% of other life on earth were destroyed by a meteor strike. If we annihilate ourselves and 90+% of life on earth, some other species will come back to make its own mess of the place without us. > We live in times significantly more mobile and more media-saturated > than at any time in human history. This means we are more aware of this > unique destruction than we would have been at any other time as well. > That's why people retreat into mass hallucinations like religious extremism, > nationalism and so on.< Oh, this is the most utter bullshit. People have been retreating into mass hallucinations like religious extremism since there were people. They've killed and maimed and tortured and pillaged and on and on for aeons. There is nothing whatever different about it now. People retreat into religious zealotry out of hatred and fear. Declaring that we should appeal to our own irrational, archaic, primordial hatreds and fears under the guise of "post-modernism" is short- sighted, self-defeating, and just plain dumb. > The past half century seems to me fairly significantly different > from other epochs. Perhaps Marcus you've noticed that the most technologically > advanced soldiers in the world are no longer Hoplites, and that soldiers no > longer wear bronze greaves. I see no difference at all. Technological advances in how to kill people have nothing whatever to do with getting us any closer to why a movie-set fire hydrant momentarily mistaken for a real one (or any other of thes examples offered) is emblematic of what is distinctively post-modern about the potential destruction of human life on the planet. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:26:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Kimmelman Reading in Brooklyn In-Reply-To: <071f01c68401$13465d10$1f1beb80@Burt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Knock 'em dead, Burt. Best, Vernon -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Burt Kimmelman Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:53 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Kimmelman Reading in Brooklyn Burt Kimmelman will be reading new work (with perhaps a few oldies thrown in) on June 12th at 9 PM at The Empty Vessel in Carroll Gardens / Red Hook, Brooklyn (400 Caroll Street). See: http://emptyvesselproject.org/. and http://log.emptyvesselproject.org/. All are welcome! Other Upcoming Poetry Readings by Burt Kimmelman: Symposia Bookstore, June 9th, 8 PM Symposia Bookstore 510 Washington Street (near Fifth Street) Hoboken, NJ 07030 201- 963-0909 info@symposia.us See: http://www.symposia.us/ And see: http://symposia.us/article.php?id=35 and Morningside Books, June 15th, 7 PM Morningside Books 2915 Broadway (at 114th Street) New York City, New York 10025 (Yahoo! Maps, Google Maps) Phone: (212) 222-3350 Peter@MorningsideBookshop.com See: http://www.pbase.com/czsz/image/34291293 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Orange Subject: recencies at heuriskein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, recencies at http://heuriskein.blogspot.com "a sugar of the malocclusions": discovering gwendolyn brooks (forthcoming) kempff plays schumann: the short form in romantic piano (forthcoming) mini-review: nester and gaughran-perez at burlesque poetry hour (karl parker was a no-show) more on david addington: enron, torture, plame david addington, cheney and signing statements bush and truman: questionable legacies ausias march: a 15th century catalan baudelaire galatea resurrects #2: surveying a survey allbests, tom orange / DC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:11:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Press Subject: TARPAULIN SKY V4n1 Spring/Summer 06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TARPAULIN SKY V4n1 Spring/Summer 06 http://www.tarpaulinsky.com NEW WORK by Benjamin Buchholz, Justin Lacour, Michael Rerick, Paul Hardacre, Matt Hart & Ethan Paquin, Jonah Winter, Carolyn Guinzio, James Wagner, Geoffrey Detrani, Elena Rivera, Shira Dentz, Kristi Maxwell, Coralie Reed, Ramsey Scott, Chad Sweeney, Robyn Art, Clay Matthews, Mark Cunningham, Julie Doxsee, Max Winter, kari edwards, and six previously unpublished CUNY undergrads, with cover art by Noah Saterstrom. NEW AND RECENT REVIEWS include Selah Saterstrom on Calamari Press & Text/Image, and Alexis Smith on Joshua Marie Wilkinson's _Suspension of a Secret in Abandoned Rooms_, Ethan Paquin's _The Violence_, Juliana Spahr's _this connection of everyone with lungs_, Lillias Bever's _Bellini in Istanbul_, and Brigitte Byrd's _The Fence Above the Sea_. NEW FROM TARPAULIN SKY PRESS: Jenny Boully's [one love affair]_* Here's to summer, folks! Cheers, Christian & Co. Editors, Tarpaulin Sky http://www.tarpaulinsky.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 11:56:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: SPLAB! E-Fishwrapper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit *For Immediate Release Contact: Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio/AuburnCommunityRadio/SPLAB! **110 2nd Street S.W. #100** **Slaughter**, **WA** **98001** 253.735.6328* *Dear Splab-Fan! *In this E-Fishwrapper: *1) The Last Living Room tonight at SPLAB! **2) WPA Contest Winners Read! **3) *_*Submit Moon Poems *_***4) Take a Poem from your Heart Series features SPLAB-ON-THE-ROAD guy David Rizzi. 5) American Poets needed in Mongolia. ** 1) The Last Living Room tonight at SPLAB! Yeah, this is it dear Friend-O-Splab! Tonight we meet for one last time and then SPLAB! evolves into something else. Since 1995 I have been active here in Auburn to create a literary arts scene. In that time we have facilitated events with Michael McClure, Anne Waldman, Andrew Schelling, Victor Hernandez Cruz, Joanne Kyger, Adrian Castro, Diane di Prima, Ed Sanders, Wanda Coleman, Eileen Myles, Jerome Rothenberg and many other amazing poets. We've facilitated Sacred Circles, Poetry Marathons, Teen Poetry Slams, Open Mic nights, Workshops and other events. We've tried to create a sense of community and tonight you can get one last taste of that at the Auburn Transit Center in suite 100. A new group is forming to take the torch and Gerald McBreen is going to be the point person. His number is 253.735.1751 and his email mcbreenpost@aol.com Thank you for all the amazing events this project has allowed me to experience. I leave a changed human being and am grateful to everyone who has contributed in some way to make SPLAB! happen. The SPLAB!-on-the-Road project, our traveling workshops, will continue and details will still be at http://splab.org/workshop.html Sound from many of the poets mentioned above is at: http://splab.org/visitingpoet.html Please consider attending tonight, to read something you have recently written, to read the work of someone else, or to come and be in the engaging company of other writers to practice the lost art of human conversation. **2) **Washington Poets Association Announces** * 2006 Award Winners and Judges to Read at Awards Presentation. Admission is Free *Saturday, June 3, 2006 - 2:00 PM *KING'S BOOKS 218 St. Helen's Avenue Tacoma, WA Directions: Phone: 253.272.8801 _http://www.kingsbookstore.com/_ The WPA is also proud to present on this occasion the *2006 Faith Beamer Cooke Award* to* **JUDITH ROCHE*. This annual award is given in recognition of outstanding service to the poetry community of Washington. A short WPA membership meeting will proceed the reading beginning at 1:30 PM. New board members and officers will be elected. The public is welcome. Over a $1,000 will be awarded to the winning poets. *3) Submit Moon Poems * The* Washington Poets Association* and the *Seattle Japanese Garden* invite your submission of poems about the moon, stars, or night sky. Selected poems will be included in a reading as part of the garden's *Moon Viewing Festival* on *Saturday*, *September 2, 2006*, at the Japanese Garden in Seattle's Washington Park Arboretum. From poems submitted, at least ten poems will be selected to be read. You need not be able to attend to read your poem, but if you can attend, you'll receive free admission for you and a guest (normally $10 per person) to read your poem. In previous years this event has attracted 650+ people and has also been on Seattle TV news. *Submission Procedure * 1. Submit no more than /three/ poems that feature the moon, stars, or night sky as the primary subject or focus. Poems may be unpublished or previously published (if published, include publication credit). Individual poems should not exceed two pages in length. Any genre or form of poetry is welcome. A sequence of very short poems, such as haiku, may include more than three poems, but should not exceed two pages per sequence. Poems may be positive or negative in tone, but positive content stands a stronger chance to be accepted. Remember that the audience will be families and mostly nonpoets. 2. Include your name and mailing address with your submission, and please indicate whether you will be able to read in person or not on September 2. 3. E-mail poems to both Michael Dylan Welch (/welchm@aol.com/) and Christopher Jarmick (/glasscocoon@hotmail.com/). Please type or paste the poems directly into the e-mail message (/no attached files, please/). Because the poems won't be published, we are not concerned about formatting issues, but if you have concerns that may affect our understanding of your work, please explain in your e-mail. Poets without e-mail can submit via postal mail; if so, please send two copies of each poem to Michael Dylan Welch, 22230 NE 28th Place, Sammamish, WA 98074-6408, and include a self-addressed stamped envelope for reply. 4. If you have a favorite moon/star poem written by another person, feel free to include/nominate that poem with your submission (contact information for the poet would also be helpful, if available). 5. *Poems must be /received/ by July 21* (the anniversary of the first human landing on the moon). Note: Please be aware that this reading is the same weekend as the Bumbershoot festival. _ _* ****4) Take a Poem from your Heart Series features SPLAB-ON-THE-ROAD guy David Rizzi. ** First please put on your calendar and plan to attend this month’s Take a Poem From Your Heart Reading * * Friday JUNE 16TH 7:00 P.M. TO 9:05 P.M. OPEN MIC signups at 6:45 Michael Dylan Welch, David Rizzi and Vivienne Williams Michael Dylan Welch: is editor/publisher of Tundra:The Journal of the Short Poem (http://hometown.aol.com/welchm/Tundra.html), vice president of the Haiku Society of America, founder of the Poets in the Park and Haiku North America poetry conferences, and a board member of the Washington Poets Association. DAVID RIZZI – by day he’s a freelance technical writer—among other things, by night a jazz musician and poet who works in strange and mysterious ways, painting surrealistic, existential dream images in his abstract, absurdist but compelling, creative, challenging and very worthwhile poetry. Whether you have any idea what I am talking about or not, be sure and check it out. Vivienne Williams - She continues to channel her muse into creating a unique poetic voice that is often spiritual and uplifting. Soon she’ll send me a official bio, but I can tell you it’s been a pleasure watching her improve her poetic craft over the last several years. Take a Poem from Your Heart Hosted by Christopher J. Jarmick and brought to you by Bookworm Exchange 206-722-6633 4860 Rainier Ave S. (Columbia City- ½ blk north of Rainier and Ferdinand) Featured Poets & Open Mike Poetry 7: 01 p.m. to 9:06 p.m. 3rd Friday of the month. (Open Mic sign-up 6:45) -FREE – **5) American Poets needed in Mongolia. They survived Ghengis Khan and want to know what a REAL REACTIONARY LEADER is like, so have invited American Poets: **Dear souls... I would like to invite you to entertain the possibility of travelling to Mongolia for the International Congress of Poets in September of this year (2006). The national poet of Mongolia, Mendo-yoo, a friend of mine that I met and wrote poetry with there is hoping to have a delegation of American poets be present for the Congress, but time and distance (as well as a lack of someone in the U.S. contacting American poets). The website describing this opportunity is: http://www.poetry-culture.mn/ I can tell you after having been in Mongolia three times while helping to establish their national arts organization (Arts Council of Mongolia) that you will find a receptive, cosmopolitan, literate, and inviting people as well as a culture and landscape that will have you wanting to return there time and time again. For a broader look at the Arts Council of Mongolia and the variety of activities that they are pursuing, you may find their website inviting interesting www.artscouncil.mn If I may answer questions or be of assistance with regard to the International Congress in Ulaanbataar, Mongolia, please contact me at this email **address, or at 206.938.5277. Bob Ness *** *I am grateful to to the City of **Auburn**, and specifically Mayor Pete Lewis, who is the rare combination of a visionary and a strong manager of basic city services. Without his support SPLAB! would have died years ago. Gratitude also to Jim Kelley and all the folks at 4 Culture, Their financial support has made most of SPLAB! possible and they deserve about $ten million more dollars to work with each year. That would create a renaissance in this community the likes of which have not been experienced by humans for 300 years. Another tip of the hat to Denise Enck and Quanta Web Design whose help has been a gift. http://quantawebdesign.com/ * *The project known as SPLAB! will evolve into an on-line project and more of a think tank and may be merged with other projects I have going on, specifically the ongoing inquiry into Organic Poetry and the cosmology on which it exists. Details on my graduate studies are available at: http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/studyplan5.5.06.html By the way, some other cool things are on that site as well, like the news reports of when I was lost in the woods: http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/paul-nelsonbackpack.html and my cv: http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/paul-nelson-community-activities.html as well as some poems in text and sound: http://www.globalvoicesradio.org/paul-nelson_poems.html You are a dear to read this far into this E-Fishwrapper. I'd welcome drinks with you after the event tonight. Denny's doesn't serve after 8PM, so how about the Mecca? Paul * -- Paul E. Nelson www.GlobalVoicesRadio.org www.AuburnCommunityRadio.com www.SPLAB.org 110 2nd Street S.W. #100 Slaughter, WA 98001 253.735.6328 toll-free 888.735.6328 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:13:35 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447C3E14.32593.DD82E8@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You seem to have delberately misread me. But never mind. When the dinosaurs became extinct, most people believe it was because a meteor hit the planet, causing massive ecological changes. What is different now is the element of human agency. It was possible before for people to believe that even if they died, the natural world as we know it would continue. But we're taking it all with us: we're in the middle of the biggest mass extinction since the dinosaurs, losing as many as 50,000 species a year. And we are doing that. Not some plague, not some natural disaster. We are the disaster. Of course it links up to the fire hydrant. And to Disneyland, and to zoos, and to those funny American national parks with pristine roads - the natural world nostalgically recalled as man intended - artificial, safe, tamed, mediated. (I realise that humans are part of nature, and that urban environments are ecologies as much as anything else - this is for the sake of argument - not that anyone seems to read my caveats). Perhaps sentient cockroaches will take over in a few million years, but I fear that I will not be interested when they do. A On 31/5/06 2:44 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Pfui. We can only destroy more people than ever before, perhaps all > of us. But after the nuclear apocalypse something will replace this > cycle of life as this one replaced the "Dinosaur Cycle", for lack of > a better term, after the meteor apocalypse. > > Besides, entire populations and cultures have been continually > destroyed through the aeons by disease and genocide. It's not "post- > modern" to fear extinction of one's self, family, clan, city, region, > culture. Human history is the history of such extinctions. To fear > such extinction cannot reasonably be held to be "post-modern" unless > you're prepared to say that pretty much all of human history is "post- > modern" -- which one imagines is beyond what even the theorists of > the post-modern are willing to say. > > Still, even if you are willing to say such a thing, I don't see how > it gets us any closer to why a movie-set fire hydrant momentarily > mistaken for a real one (or any other of thes examples offered) is > emblematic of what is distinctively post-modern about the potential > destruction of human life on the planet. Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:39:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 31 May 2006 at 9:13, Alison Croggon wrote: > When the dinosaurs became extinct, most people believe it was > because a meteor hit the planet, causing massive ecological changes.< Yes, I believe I mentioned that in my comment. I was pointing out that the earth has suffered massive ecological disruption before, and life, different from the life before the disruption, has returned. You point that "this has never happened before" is, simply, wrong. That you don't happen to be interested in it is irrelevant to how wrong your point is. > What is different now is the element of human agency. It was > possible before for people to believe that even if they died, the > natural world as we know it would continue.< When the hordes come, by human agency, they destroy life as we know it. Oh, sure, what the hell, the village is razed, the men are dead, the children are traumatized, the women are raped, the crops are burned, the animals stolen, the wells poisoned, but life "as we know it" goes on, eh? The problem is that life "as we know it" does not go on in any meaningful way -- and it was a lot more likely not to go on back then than now. We are the luckiest human beings who've ever lived, we in the wealthy West, and the notion that there is some kind of "post-modern" angst over the wah wah wah that the world may be destroyed is sheerest bullshit. The vanity of thinking that our world must be the toughest world in which to get our minds around our fates is just that: vanity. The world is a tough place, and a destroyed village ruins "life as we know it" for the villagers just as surely as if the nuclear winter had come as a result of a-bombs. It is sheerest fudge to complain that in these our "post-modern" times we have it the toughest any human beings have ever had it. It's intellectually dishonest. > But we're taking it all with us: we're in the middle of the > biggest mass extinction since the dinosaurs, losing as many as > 50,000 species a year. And we are doing that. Not some plague, not some > natural disaster. We are the disaster. Yeah yeah, so what? We've always been the disaster. We've raped and burned and looted and plundered and pillaged and raped for aeons. We're running out of stuff to loot and plunder, but we're a resourceful disaster -- we'll get out into the solar system and loot and plunder it, and then beyond. Or we'll die. But it's not "post- modern" to realize that our village may be burned. It's the human condition. We may find that some human agency we cannot resist destroys our village; we may get buried in an earthquake or blown away by a storm or drowned in a flood. The risks are great that we won't get out of here alive. It's been the same for aeons. There is no difference now. And fake fire hydrants are no symptom of a non- existent difference. > Of course it links up to the fire hydrant. And to Disneyland, and to > zoos, and to those funny American national parks with pristine roads - the > natural world nostalgically recalled as man intended - artificial, safe, > tamed, mediated.< So you're now saying that post-modernism is really just a realization of waste and wastefulness? Are you now trying to persuade us that this is the first time in human history there's been waste and wastefulness, or a realization of it? Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:52:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: postmodernisit? Comments: cc: David Raphael Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marcus Bales wrote: > But it's not "post-modern" to realize that our village may be burned. > It's the human condition. Well, it seems possible it could be both of those things, yes? I'm not deep scholar of postmodernism, but as a mere cultural dabbler, I've run across the idea -- and it seems a decent one to me -- that modernism and postmodernism (and other such things as well, but for sake of focus, those) are not ineluctibly "new"; they embody new formulations of ideas and perceptions that have always been with humanity (in other forms, roots, aspects). But each era brings its own technologies and social formations etc. And with those changesome things comes a change in the specific conformations of imagination that are made possible. I should be willing to allow and pleased to proposed that postmodernism (and modernism before it) has involved -- or we could say, has partly involved -- certain ranges of how the world's condition is imagined to be. Given various shifts of thought, language, technology, and society, there are shifts in this imagination-of-the-world. Is it a novel idea to suggest that "postmodernism" (along with other basic eras or styles of weltenshauung -- the so-called age of reason, etc.) have involved differing phrases of imaginational response? As such, Alison's point about some specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet imagination and language may imagine things to be. cheers, d.i. david raphael israel washington dc http://blogspot.kirwani.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 19:56:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Re: postmodernisit? Comments: cc: David Raphael Israel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ps: erratum << Is it a novel idea to suggest that "postmodernism" (along with other basic eras or styles of weltenshauung -- the so-called age of reason, etc.) have involved differing **phrases** of imaginational response? >> well, I'd meant to use the word PHASES ("phrases" may be true too, though not the meaning I thought I was looking for here) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 20:19:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george thompson Subject: Re: Etymology etc. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Aryanil, You ask: "are you suggesting that in order to understand my mother tongue and/or Sanskrit, I have to read etymological dictionaries in Proto-Indo-Aryan German and French ? I don't get this." No, I am not saying what you think I am saying. What I am saying is that native speakers of any language are not necessarily the best judge of the history of their language. The best judges of the history of a language -- any language -- are those who actually take the trouble to study the history of the language. Look, how many list members, even the the native speakers of English, and even the most literate poets among them, know the etymology of such common and ordinary English words as "boy", "girl", "book", "apron", never mind such relatively transparent classicisms like "encyclopedia"? Native speakers are notoriously bad informants when it comes to etymological speculation. Etymology is an historical science. It is not impeccable. But it is rule-governed. I try to play by the rules. If you want to talk about etymology you should try to figure out how it works. In fact, it works the same way in all languages. With apologies, as usual [and perhaps we should not inflict our etymological dispute on the members of the poetics list: if they don't want to listen to it; well, let them tell us, yes or no]. I keep on apologizing, but you keep on being offended. Sorry again to have to say so, but you are wrong about these etymologies. George Well, I keep on apologizing, but you keep on being offended. Sorry again to have to say so, but you are wrong about these etymologies. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:47:12 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447C9F83.27720.25A1D2C@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 31/5/06 9:39 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > You point that "this has never happened before" is, simply, wrong. > That you don't happen to be interested in it is irrelevant to how > wrong your point is. Marcus, I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who deliberately misreads me. Quite obviously, I was saying that human beings - I am speaking of human history, not geological history, when I make my hugely general statements about post modern times - have never held the capacity to destroy life on this planet before. When has this happened before? You tell me. Perhaps we ought to make a distinction between the post modern, an idea of post-capitalist, post-industrial society, and post modernism, which began with architecture and is, frankly, more than a little confusing. As I said in my first post, there are no clear boundaries: each era evolves out of the complexities of the previous one, and of course there are continuities. But, as a symbol of a change of possibility and consciousness that one might call post modern, the dropping of the bomb in 1945 is quite a useful one. > I should be > willing to allow and pleased to proposed that postmodernism (and > modernism before it) has involved -- or we could say, has partly > involved -- certain ranges of how the world's condition is imagined > to be. Given various shifts of thought, language, technology, and > society, there are shifts in this imagination-of-the-world. Is it > a novel idea to suggest that "postmodernism" (along with other basic > eras or styles of weltenshauung -- the so-called age of reason, etc.) > have involved differing phrases of imaginational response? As such, > Alison's point about some specifics of this general situation, seem > Reasonable and apt. They describe some of the factors involved in > the way currenet imagination and language may imagine things to be. Thanks, David. That's a very elegant formulation of what I was attempting to say. Best A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:56:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Just a word on those funny American natiional parks. You should know that there are vast roadless areas to get lost in within the parks. And there are all the other wild lands, in the national monuments and national forests, among other places. About a third of the US is federal land, a good half of that roadless. A bear was shot last week in Newark, NJ, a trainstop from Manhattan. Mark At 07:13 PM 5/30/2006, you wrote: >You seem to have delberately misread me. But never mind. > >When the dinosaurs became extinct, most people believe it was because a >meteor hit the planet, causing massive ecological changes. What is different >now is the element of human agency. It was possible before for people to >believe that even if they died, the natural world as we know it would >continue. But we're taking it all with us: we're in the middle of the >biggest mass extinction since the dinosaurs, losing as many as 50,000 >species a year. And we are doing that. Not some plague, not some natural >disaster. We are the disaster. > >Of course it links up to the fire hydrant. And to Disneyland, and to zoos, >and to those funny American national parks with pristine roads - the natural >world nostalgically recalled as man intended - artificial, safe, tamed, >mediated. (I realise that humans are part of nature, and that urban >environments are ecologies as much as anything else - this is for the sake >of argument - not that anyone seems to read my caveats). > >Perhaps sentient cockroaches will take over in a few million years, but I >fear that I will not be interested when they do. > >A > > >On 31/5/06 2:44 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > > > Pfui. We can only destroy more people than ever before, perhaps all > > of us. But after the nuclear apocalypse something will replace this > > cycle of life as this one replaced the "Dinosaur Cycle", for lack of > > a better term, after the meteor apocalypse. > > > > Besides, entire populations and cultures have been continually > > destroyed through the aeons by disease and genocide. It's not "post- > > modern" to fear extinction of one's self, family, clan, city, region, > > culture. Human history is the history of such extinctions. To fear > > such extinction cannot reasonably be held to be "post-modern" unless > > you're prepared to say that pretty much all of human history is "post- > > modern" -- which one imagines is beyond what even the theorists of > > the post-modern are willing to say. > > > > Still, even if you are willing to say such a thing, I don't see how > > it gets us any closer to why a movie-set fire hydrant momentarily > > mistaken for a real one (or any other of thes examples offered) is > > emblematic of what is distinctively post-modern about the potential > > destruction of human life on the planet. > > > >Alison Croggon > >Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au >Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 22:02:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: postmodernisit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, I lived in Newark; it is not a train stop from Manhattan. More = accurately Newark exists in a different zone both of time and space from = the rest of the nation. Newark may in truth be the only postmodern city = in the nation. How many other major metropolitan centers can attest to = having a mayor who brought the Mafia to control in the city government? = Of course the conviction...that's a wonderful story of its own. =20 And how apt to see the old Newark Bears move to action in this = manner...though I thought they played baseball, but then I haven't been = there in ages.=20 Alex=20 P.S. My maternal Great Grandfather, John Weiss, originally from = "Austro-Hungary," or so it is written on his naturalization papers, = became a naturalized citizen on Sept. 3, 1888 in Luzerne County, PA. I = never knew the man, but they tell me his native language was Slovak, but = that he spoke, read and wrote German and Polish as well. =20 I did know his wife, my ggmother Mary. She was born in Bucharest (at = least some relatives say) prior to emigrating. She spoke English by the = time I was born, but she too spoke Slovak as her native tongue.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Weiss=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 6:56 PM Subject: Re: postmodernisit? Just a word on those funny American natiional parks. You should know=20 that there are vast roadless areas to get lost in within the parks.=20 And there are all the other wild lands, in the national monuments and=20 national forests, among other places. About a third of the US is=20 federal land, a good half of that roadless. A bear was shot last week in Newark, NJ, a trainstop from Manhattan. Mark At 07:13 PM 5/30/2006, you wrote: >You seem to have delberately misread me. But never mind. > >When the dinosaurs became extinct, most people believe it was because = a >meteor hit the planet, causing massive ecological changes. What is = different >now is the element of human agency. It was possible before for people = to >believe that even if they died, the natural world as we know it would >continue. But we're taking it all with us: we're in the middle of the >biggest mass extinction since the dinosaurs, losing as many as 50,000 >species a year. And we are doing that. Not some plague, not some = natural >disaster. We are the disaster. > >Of course it links up to the fire hydrant. And to Disneyland, and to = zoos, >and to those funny American national parks with pristine roads - the = natural >world nostalgically recalled as man intended - artificial, safe, = tamed, >mediated. (I realise that humans are part of nature, and that urban >environments are ecologies as much as anything else - this is for the = sake >of argument - not that anyone seems to read my caveats). > >Perhaps sentient cockroaches will take over in a few million years, = but I >fear that I will not be interested when they do. > >A > > >On 31/5/06 2:44 AM, "Marcus Bales" = > wrote: > > > Pfui. We can only destroy more people than ever before, perhaps = all > > of us. But after the nuclear apocalypse something will replace = this > > cycle of life as this one replaced the "Dinosaur Cycle", for lack = of > > a better term, after the meteor apocalypse. > > > > Besides, entire populations and cultures have been continually > > destroyed through the aeons by disease and genocide. It's not = "post- > > modern" to fear extinction of one's self, family, clan, city, = region, > > culture. Human history is the history of such extinctions. To fear > > such extinction cannot reasonably be held to be "post-modern" = unless > > you're prepared to say that pretty much all of human history is = "post- > > modern" -- which one imagines is beyond what even the theorists of > > the post-modern are willing to say. > > > > Still, even if you are willing to say such a thing, I don't see = how > > it gets us any closer to why a movie-set fire hydrant momentarily > > mistaken for a real one (or any other of thes examples offered) is > > emblematic of what is distinctively post-modern about the = potential > > destruction of human life on the planet. > > > >Alison Croggon > >Blog: = http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au >Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:19:52 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: the forgotten In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Mark, Alexander, Aldon, Well of course Bernard Smith's notion of the 'formalesque' does elide the pop term and of course it didn't catch on - but it was a nice try. All the best, Pam Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:11:43 -0400 From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: How about 'Formalesque'? the problem, of course, is that these two terms are overlapping, not substitutes for one another -- much as we've had the problem of people conflating postmodernism and poststructuralism in ways that they probably would not confuse modernism and structuralism -- and while there are competing versions of the postmodern (and many here will know that I lean far more toward the Lyotard side than to Jamesons's sympomatologies), I confess that I have never quite grasped why so many find "postmodern" a more problematic term than "modernism" -- Olson's version of the postmodern, rooted more in philosophical disagreements than in categories of stylistic features, strikes me still as closer to the mark than, say, Ihab Hassan, to invoke an already almost forgotten name _________________________________________________________________ Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ On Yahoo!7 Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 07:48:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable On 31 May 2006 at 10:47, Alison Croggon wrote: > ... I was saying that human > beings ... have never held the capacity to destroy life on this > planet before.< Yes, and I'm patiently pointing out that to the villagers threatened with getting rolled over by an invading horde, it felt like human agency had the capacity to destroy life on this planet because to them life as they knew it would indeed be destroyed. They were as alive to the possibility as you are to the possibility of the destruction of the human race, and they felt about the possibility of their destruction the way you feel about the possibility of yours. You live in a society that is not threatened by a horde; so do I (in my case, some may argue that I live in a society that is the horde, but let that pass for the moment); as a result, our fears of destruction are the fears of a destruction so large that it would encompass even us. But the fear is the same: it doesn=B4t matter whether the fear is that Tamerlane or global nuclear war is coming, the fear is the same. I am arguing that there is no discontinuity, no "postmodernism", to it -- that it's the human condition to fear destruction and death, whether by human agency or by the course of events. On 31 May 2006 at 10:47, Alison Croggon wrote: > Perhaps we ought to make a distinction between the post modern, an > idea of post-capitalist, post-industrial society, and post > modernism, which began with architecture and is, frankly, more than > a little confusing. As I said in my first post, there are no clear > boundaries: each era evolves out of the complexities of the > previous one, and of course there are continuities.< But you're arguing that what continuities exist are insignificant, and that there is at least one significant discontinuity that has changed everything, and that has resulted in what you call "postmodernism". I'm saying that the continuities are significant, and that the anecdotes you have offered so far as examples of the significant discontinuity you claim are simply not good examples of a significant discontinuity. They are, instead, examples of the kinds of things that have happened for aeons, allowing for differences in technologies. I'm arguing the human condition has not changed; you're arguing that it has. I'm arguing that your examples do not show the change you're saying they show. > But, as a symbol of a change of possibility and consciousness that > one might call post modern, the dropping of the bomb in 1945 is > quite a useful one. I don't see how. Human beings have been able to destroy whole civilizations for a long long time, from the small civilizations of a village to the large civilizations of a region. That they can now destroy even larger chunks doesn't look to me to be any different. The human condition is fear that one is not safe; you seem to be trying to say that your fear that you are not safe is some kind of special thing, and I=B4m pointing out that it is not special in the least. David Israel wrote: > > I should be > > willing to allow and pleased to proposed that postmodernism (and > > modernism before it) has involved -- or we could say, has partly > > involved -- certain ranges of how the world's condition is > > imagined to be. Given various shifts of thought, language, > > technology, and society, there are shifts in this imagination-of- > > the-world. Is it a novel idea to suggest that "postmodernism" > > (along with other basic eras or styles of weltenshauung -- the so- > > called age of reason, etc.) have involved differing phrases of > > imaginational response? As such, Alison's point about some > > specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. > > They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet > > imagination and language may imagine things to be. Alison Croggon wrote: > Thanks, David. That's a very elegant formulation of what I was > attempting to say. Are you trying to say there is a significant discontinuity that generates post-modernism, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you hold that post-modernism is a result of a change in the human condition, then why bother to speak of "some specifics ... describe some of the factors involved in the way current imagination and language may imagine things to be" as a part of post-modernism? It's like saying "Some dogs have floppy ears; my dog has floppy ears, therefore my dog is SOME dog" -- it's a semantical misemphasis, an equivocation if not a joke; and if only a joke, then it is meaningless in the context of your claim, however momentarily diverting. If it is merely a matter of > > ... some > > specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. > > They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet > > imagination and language may imagine things to be. then there is no Significant Discontinuity that generates Postmodernism. If you want to argue that there is a Significant Discontinuity that generates Postmodernism, then "some specifics" and "some factors" and "may imagine" and "current imagination" and such locutions so modify the original strong claim that it is killed by inches, and dies the death of a thousand qualifications. What is the difference between Postmodernism that in "some specifics" we "may imagine" in the "current imagination" that "some factors" may be "involved", and no Postmodernism at all? I assert that there is no difference; that once you accept David's friendly emendation you have abandoned your original bold claim, and have to accept that postmodernism is no different than modernism or antiquity after all. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis Warsh Subject: Gloria Frym Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New from United Artists Books SOLUTION SIMULACRA by Gloria Frym 74 pages Cover by Amy Trachtenberg ISBN 0-935992-39-1 $14.00 "Like in the aftermath of a 'mesmerizing theater of operations,' Gloria Frym's solutions tread the water of a flood inundating what we once considered our life. Angry, playful, and unforgiving, these words we thought belonged to us now see only 'orphans as far as the future can go." Ammiel Alcalay "This poet's brilliant solution in SOLUTION SIMULACRA is to invent a parallel and much more exciting ethos to the prevailing ill winds of a culture gone awry with war and little tolerance for dissent. Poetry, prose poems, polemic exist in a polyvalent, quotidian, urgent universe. Poetry is, in this visionary powerful response, the rival government. Gloria Frym is the patriot I'll vote for, every time." Anne Waldman "SOLUTION SIMULACRA deepens the sensibility that so distinguished Gloria Frym's award-winning collection HOMELESS AT HOME. The work here moves between poetry and prose to capture the difficulty of a time in which, as she writes, perhaps in the voice of a soldier and perhaps in the voice of a citizen, 'no history will forgive me, no history will absolve me, no history cares for me.' A great book." Juliana Spahr Available from: United Artists Books 114 W. 16th Street, 5C New York, N.Y. 10011 Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley, Ca. 94710 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 08:19:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent Nomadics blog entries Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Recent Nomadics blog entries: The ongoing saga of Handke's Heine Prize Apikoros Sleuth Brossard & Ince Back to the Netherlands, while waiting for my flight Twixt Europa & Canada Spent three days in Washington... all here: http://pjoris.blogspot.com with apologies for crossposting ============================================== "Blasphemy is a victimless crime." -- a t-shirt sent to Salman Rushdie in the days of the Satanic Verses fatwa. ============================================== Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 85 Euro cell: 011 33 6 79 368 446 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com ========================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 22:31:58 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447D4A3E.24731.6D155A@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 31/5/06 9:48 PM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Yes, and I'm patiently pointing out that to the villagers threatened > with getting rolled over by an invading horde, it felt like human > agency had the capacity to destroy life on this planet because to > them life as they knew it would indeed be destroyed. They were as > alive to the possibility as you are to the possibility of the > destruction of the human race, > and they felt about the possibility of their destruction the way you > feel about the possibility of yours. Well, presumably if human beings were killing them, unless it was an invading horde of aliens from Mars, the destruction of the human race wasn't a question. It may be, as Genet said, that to kill one person is morally the same as killing a thousand, since the ending of a person's life is the ending of a universe; but that is an entirely different question. And if the destruction of species and nature was a part of pre-modern consciousness, why then all the poems which speak about mankind being like a wind through the grass, etc etc etc? Poem after poem which rehearses the sentiment that the grass, the trees, the landscape are eternal; only humankind is transient. Not any more. A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:36:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447D4A3E.24731.6D155A@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm with Alison on this one, and think Marcus is missing a major =20 point (& maybe remains thoroughly "modern" in his belief in linear =20 sameness or progress of history?) by not seeing that from 1945 on we =20 are in a totally different game. It is indeed for the first time =20 ever that humans have the power to destroy their own species and the =20 planet. This is a qualitatively situation radically different from =20 all previous human (and animal) situations, where there was always a =20 victor, thus a survivor who would pass that human dna on to more =20 humans, more often than not mingled with that of the victims. So yes, =20= the species has been murderous from the very beginning, evolving from =20= (or just into?) real nasty & gratuitous predators, but so far no =20 predator, no matter how vicious, has been known, or has been able to, =20= destroy himself, his victim and both their species and habitats at =20 the same time. So it is not a question of the same ancestral angst, =20 but of a different consciousness and thus a different responsability. Pierre On May 31, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > On 31 May 2006 at 10:47, Alison Croggon wrote: >> ... I was saying that human >> beings ... have never held the capacity to destroy life on this >> planet before.< > > Yes, and I'm patiently pointing out that to the villagers threatened > with getting rolled over by an invading horde, it felt like human > agency had the capacity to destroy life on this planet because to > them life as they knew it would indeed be destroyed. They were as > alive to the possibility as you are to the possibility of the > destruction of the human race, > and they felt about the possibility of their destruction the way you > feel about the possibility of yours. You live in a society that is > not threatened by a horde; so do I (in my case, some may argue that I > live in a society that is the horde, but let that pass for the > moment); as a result, our fears of destruction are the fears of a > destruction so large that it would encompass even us. But the fear is > the same: it doesn=B4t matter whether the fear is that Tamerlane or > global nuclear war is coming, the fear is the same. I am arguing that > there is no discontinuity, no "postmodernism", to it -- that it's the > human condition to fear destruction and death, whether by human > agency or by the course of events. > > On 31 May 2006 at 10:47, Alison Croggon wrote: >> Perhaps we ought to make a distinction between the post modern, an >> idea of post-capitalist, post-industrial society, and post >> modernism, which began with architecture and is, frankly, more than >> a little confusing. As I said in my first post, there are no clear >> boundaries: each era evolves out of the complexities of the >> previous one, and of course there are continuities.< > > But you're arguing that what continuities exist are insignificant, > and that there is at least one significant discontinuity that has > changed everything, and that has resulted in what you call > "postmodernism". I'm saying that the continuities are significant, > and that the anecdotes you have offered so far as examples of the > significant discontinuity you claim are simply not good examples of a > significant discontinuity. They are, instead, examples of the kinds > of things that have happened for aeons, allowing for differences in > technologies. > > I'm arguing the human condition has not changed; you're arguing that > it has. I'm arguing that your examples do not show the change you're > saying they show. > >> But, as a symbol of a change of possibility and consciousness that >> one might call post modern, the dropping of the bomb in 1945 is >> quite a useful one. > > I don't see how. Human beings have been able to destroy whole > civilizations for a long long time, from the small civilizations of a > village to the large civilizations of a region. That they can now > destroy even larger chunks doesn't look to me to be any different. > The human condition is fear that one is not safe; you seem to be > trying to say that your fear that you are not safe is some kind of > special thing, and I=B4m pointing out that it is not special in the > least. > > David Israel wrote: >>> I should be >>> willing to allow and pleased to proposed that postmodernism (and >>> modernism before it) has involved -- or we could say, has partly >>> involved -- certain ranges of how the world's condition is >>> imagined to be. Given various shifts of thought, language, >>> technology, and society, there are shifts in this imagination-of- >>> the-world. Is it a novel idea to suggest that "postmodernism" >>> (along with other basic eras or styles of weltenshauung -- the so- > >>> called age of reason, etc.) have involved differing phrases of >>> imaginational response? As such, Alison's point about some >>> specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. >>> They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet >>> imagination and language may imagine things to be. > > Alison Croggon wrote: >> Thanks, David. That's a very elegant formulation of what I was >> attempting to say. > > Are you trying to say there is a significant discontinuity that > generates post-modernism, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you > hold that post-modernism is a result of a change in the human > condition, then why bother to speak of "some specifics ... describe > some of the factors involved in the way current imagination and > language may imagine things to be" as a part of post-modernism? It's > like saying "Some dogs have floppy ears; my dog has floppy ears, > therefore my dog is SOME dog" -- it's a semantical misemphasis, an > equivocation if not a joke; and if only a joke, then it is > meaningless in the context of your claim, however momentarily > diverting. > > If it is merely a matter of > >>> ... some >>> specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. >>> They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet >>> imagination and language may imagine things to be. > > then there is no Significant Discontinuity that generates > Postmodernism. If you want to argue that there is a Significant > Discontinuity that generates Postmodernism, then "some specifics" and > "some factors" and "may imagine" and "current imagination" and such > locutions so modify the original strong claim that it is killed by > inches, and dies the death of a thousand qualifications. What is the > difference between Postmodernism that in "some specifics" we "may > imagine" in the "current imagination" that "some factors" may be > "involved", and no Postmodernism at all? I assert that there is no > difference; that once > you accept David's friendly emendation you have abandoned your > original bold claim, and have to accept that postmodernism is no > different than modernism or antiquity after all. > > Marcus =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Blasphemy is a victimless crime." -- a t-shirt sent to Salman Rushdie in the days of the Satanic Verses fatwa. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 85 Euro cell: 011 33 6 79 368 446 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: postmodernisit? Comments: To: lucipo listserv , sedici group Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Culture may be the instigator here.=20 Culture is antithetic to the natural organism.=20 Culture may have spurned things like anxiety. Culture is definately one way of seeing things. Culture, in other words, is the only way of seeing things. This is antithetical to our natural insticts. Some scientists have problems with this because (a) half of them believe it= is the culture that inhibits the formation of the natural insticts and (b)= the other half believes it is the natural instincts that must be repressed= for the benefit of enculturation. This "Chicken" and "Egg" problem is also the cause of the widespread AIDS p= andemic (see Reagan). In conclusion: Culture no longer defines a specific set of values of a peop= le; instead, it confines the natural instincts to a marginal status; and wh= en this status quo is challeneged (e.g. we act out of natural instinct) it = is seen as antithetical to the given model of culture, and so is met with (= a) violence (war) or (b) repression (prisons, censorship); this scheme is a= generic "Chicken" and "Egg" problem - generic in that it is one sided - on= e sided in that it is a problem of those in power to decide "Do we attack u= nlike cultures and enculturate them with our values?" or "Do we repress cer= tain natural insticts and imprison those who go against the present culture= ?" - which seems to be the problem of continuing the culture by disseminati= ng its values versus keeping vigilant to protect it; the outcome of this on= e dimensional problem is, obviously, activism, which is naturally repressed= because it goes against the proponents of the present, dominant culture; t= his activism becomes a culture in and of itself, against the present, domin= ant culture, and exhibits - in time - values of its own that may be antithe= tical to certain groups which may oppose certain of their views; thus, we h= ave the creation of a new culture that is against this old activist culture= ; so forth and so on while the powers-that-be continue to assert power, unc= hallenged. The "Chicken" and "Egg" problem is a culture in and of itself, so that the = reactionary nature of opposition actually perpetuates the survival of domin= ant cultures, adding to the problem of violence and inequality. The solution may lie in investigating ways of overcoming the arbitrary NEED= of culture (which many of us take as presupposed knowledge) and complement= ing it with a culture that is necessary - one without borders, or margins, = one that accepts all cultures - a culture that is active in the ACTIVE form= ation of peaceful lifestyles and equal distribution. PeaceKeeperChristophe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pierre Joris" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: postmodernisit? > Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:36:47 -0400 >=20 >=20 > I'm with Alison on this one, and think Marcus is missing a major point (= & maybe remains=20 > thoroughly "modern" in his belief in linear sameness or progress of hist= ory?) by not seeing=20 > that from 1945 on we are in a totally different game. It is indeed for = the first time ever=20 > that humans have the power to destroy their own species and the planet. = This is a qualitatively=20 > situation radically different from all previous human (and animal) situa= tions, where there was=20 > always a victor, thus a survivor who would pass that human dna on to mor= e humans, more often=20 > than not mingled with that of the victims. So yes, the species has been = murderous from the very=20 > beginning, evolving from (or just into?) real nasty & gratuitous predato= rs, but so far no=20=20 > predator, no matter how vicious, has been known, or has been able to, de= stroy himself, his=20 > victim and both their species and habitats at the same time. So it is no= t a question of the=20 > same ancestral angst, but of a different consciousness and thus a differ= ent responsability. >=20 > Pierre >=20 > On May 31, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >=20 > > On 31 May 2006 at 10:47, Alison Croggon wrote: > >> ... I was saying that human > >> beings ... have never held the capacity to destroy life on this > >> planet before.< > > > > Yes, and I'm patiently pointing out that to the villagers threatened > > with getting rolled over by an invading horde, it felt like human > > agency had the capacity to destroy life on this planet because to > > them life as they knew it would indeed be destroyed. They were as > > alive to the possibility as you are to the possibility of the > > destruction of the human race, > > and they felt about the possibility of their destruction the way you > > feel about the possibility of yours. You live in a society that is > > not threatened by a horde; so do I (in my case, some may argue that I > > live in a society that is the horde, but let that pass for the > > moment); as a result, our fears of destruction are the fears of a > > destruction so large that it would encompass even us. But the fear is > > the same: it doesn=B4t matter whether the fear is that Tamerlane or > > global nuclear war is coming, the fear is the same. I am arguing that > > there is no discontinuity, no "postmodernism", to it -- that it's the > > human condition to fear destruction and death, whether by human > > agency or by the course of events. > > > > On 31 May 2006 at 10:47, Alison Croggon wrote: > >> Perhaps we ought to make a distinction between the post modern, an > >> idea of post-capitalist, post-industrial society, and post > >> modernism, which began with architecture and is, frankly, more than > >> a little confusing. As I said in my first post, there are no clear > >> boundaries: each era evolves out of the complexities of the > >> previous one, and of course there are continuities.< > > > > But you're arguing that what continuities exist are insignificant, > > and that there is at least one significant discontinuity that has > > changed everything, and that has resulted in what you call > > "postmodernism". I'm saying that the continuities are significant, > > and that the anecdotes you have offered so far as examples of the > > significant discontinuity you claim are simply not good examples of a > > significant discontinuity. They are, instead, examples of the kinds > > of things that have happened for aeons, allowing for differences in > > technologies. > > > > I'm arguing the human condition has not changed; you're arguing that > > it has. I'm arguing that your examples do not show the change you're > > saying they show. > > > >> But, as a symbol of a change of possibility and consciousness that > >> one might call post modern, the dropping of the bomb in 1945 is > >> quite a useful one. > > > > I don't see how. Human beings have been able to destroy whole > > civilizations for a long long time, from the small civilizations of a > > village to the large civilizations of a region. That they can now > > destroy even larger chunks doesn't look to me to be any different. > > The human condition is fear that one is not safe; you seem to be > > trying to say that your fear that you are not safe is some kind of > > special thing, and I=B4m pointing out that it is not special in the > > least. > > > > David Israel wrote: > >>> I should be > >>> willing to allow and pleased to proposed that postmodernism (and > >>> modernism before it) has involved -- or we could say, has partly > >>> involved -- certain ranges of how the world's condition is > >>> imagined to be. Given various shifts of thought, language, > >>> technology, and society, there are shifts in this imagination-of- > >>> the-world. Is it a novel idea to suggest that "postmodernism" > >>> (along with other basic eras or styles of weltenshauung -- the so- > > > >>> called age of reason, etc.) have involved differing phrases of > >>> imaginational response? As such, Alison's point about some > >>> specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. > >>> They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet > >>> imagination and language may imagine things to be. > > > > Alison Croggon wrote: > >> Thanks, David. That's a very elegant formulation of what I was > >> attempting to say. > > > > Are you trying to say there is a significant discontinuity that > > generates post-modernism, or not? You can't have it both ways. If you > > hold that post-modernism is a result of a change in the human > > condition, then why bother to speak of "some specifics ... describe > > some of the factors involved in the way current imagination and > > language may imagine things to be" as a part of post-modernism? It's > > like saying "Some dogs have floppy ears; my dog has floppy ears, > > therefore my dog is SOME dog" -- it's a semantical misemphasis, an > > equivocation if not a joke; and if only a joke, then it is > > meaningless in the context of your claim, however momentarily > > diverting. > > > > If it is merely a matter of > > > >>> ... some > >>> specifics of this general situation, seem Reasonable and apt. > >>> They describe some of the factors involved in the way currenet > >>> imagination and language may imagine things to be. > > > > then there is no Significant Discontinuity that generates > > Postmodernism. If you want to argue that there is a Significant > > Discontinuity that generates Postmodernism, then "some specifics" and > > "some factors" and "may imagine" and "current imagination" and such > > locutions so modify the original strong claim that it is killed by > > inches, and dies the death of a thousand qualifications. What is the > > difference between Postmodernism that in "some specifics" we "may > > imagine" in the "current imagination" that "some factors" may be > > "involved", and no Postmodernism at all? I assert that there is no > > difference; that once > > you accept David's friendly emendation you have abandoned your > > original bold claim, and have to accept that postmodernism is no > > different than modernism or antiquity after all. > > > > Marcus >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > "Blasphemy is a victimless crime." -- a t-shirt sent to Salman > Rushdie in the days of the Satanic Verses fatwa. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 85 > Euro cell: 011 33 6 79 368 446 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D > Christophe Casamassima Professor Emiritus, Modern Languages & Philology University of Jamaica Avenue, Queens, N.Y. --=20 ___________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.graffiti.net/ Powered By Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:24:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On 31/5/06 9:48 PM, "Marcus Bales" > wrote: > > Yes, and I'm patiently pointing out that to the villagers > threatened > > with getting rolled over by an invading horde, it felt like > human > > agency had the capacity to destroy life on this planet because > to > > them life as they knew it would indeed be destroyed. They were > as > > alive to the possibility as you are to the possibility of the > > destruction of the human race, > > and they felt about the possibility of their destruction the way > you > > feel about the possibility of yours. On 31 May 2006 at 22:31, Alison Croggon wrote: > Well, presumably if human beings were killing them ... the destruction of the human > race wasn't a question. From the point of view of the villagers, the invading hordes were threatening the entire world of the village; and their fear was that the the village's entire world would be destroyed. They didn't take solace, you know, in the thought that "Oh, well, at least the destruction of our world doesn't mean the destruction of the human race because whatever else these invading beasts and butchers are, they're human beings, so it's all good." They were afraid that their world would be destroyed -- and that's no different than your fear that your world will be. There is no significant difference in the two fears: in each the fear is that an entire world will be destroyed. The size of the world is irrelevant to the nature of the fear. There is no signficance to worrying about the whole race's or just your extended family's destruction. The human condition remains the same. > And if the destruction of species and nature was a part of > pre-modern consciousness, why then all the poems which speak about mankind > being like a wind through the grass, etc etc etc? Poem after poem which > rehearses the sentiment that the grass, the trees, the landscape are eternal; > only humankind is transient. Not any more. Tired of arguing on your side? Did you decide you'd take a flyer on my side of the argument for a bit just for a lark? The notion that human beings are like the wind in the trees, ephemeral, transient, just goes to show more clearly that there is no difference between the fears of the ancients and our contemporary fears today. There is no significant disruption that marks the "post- modern" -- it's all the same basic fear: that life is meaningless, and that to the gods we are as flies in the hands of wanton boys. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may, Or dwell on your fears, but either way We exercised our own volition; Original sin is the human condition. There's no way back into the Garden; Since Adam and Eve it's all Post-Modern. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:16:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: postmodernisit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit no change just a shrinking globe change is only as suggested more complete and instant destruction back then most knew not of other worlds so when the outsider came and destroyed hand to hand like in iraq theirs was the only land being invaded still true like in 9-11 only we got hit still very small thinking even in global warfare japan was very far away they asked me many questions about muslims and my life in post-9-11 america? they felt very secure about that in a post a-bomb japan tho they felt most definitely immediate danger from north korea why don't we invade north korea they ask me a very post-modern question there's nothing there we need i answer it's like my wife's mom passing it's not your mom it's hers not your wife but mine (take my wife please) not your life but those in the land being invaded ( take my life please) we've lived in a total mass destruction world so very long that tho it's a constant we feel it's like taking a shit a constipating inevitable whereas the runs i.e. terrorism on a personal and global level is more imminent more archaic yet more "post-modern" in its reinvented newness this is a spontaneous jet-lag petty poetry world disgruntled personal assessment rant so just dismiss it if you like people suck always have - oh not us of course we don't drop the bombs blow ourselves up or sanction terror - we drink coffee & analyze and complain buy our new shoes and pet our floppy eared dogs (my dog is MY doG) my god & that's that - ah blessed be postmodern antiquity sd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 10:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: postmodernisit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey furniture how are ya we're back ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:34:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: the forgotten MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain not only was it a nice try, but it brought to my attention a writer I hadn't known before -- for which I thank you -- you'll notice that I have not participated in the arguments about whether or not villagers a millenium ago facing destruction of their entire environs differed substantively in consciousness as a result from our own postmodernists -- in the world of academe, Romanticists see Romanticism everywhere they look -- Modernists see Romanticists as early Modernists -- and Postmodernists see that we were always already postmodern -- apparently some antipostmodernists agree -- which most certainly does not mean that there is no point in trying to make distinctions and describe shifting cultural eras -- The one thing we should all have learned from poststructuralist critiques is that it is the condition of possibility of categorizing that the categories cannot be kept separate from one another -- On Wed, 31 May 2006 15:19:52 +1000, Pam Brown wrote: > Hello Mark, Alexander, Aldon, > > Well of course Bernard Smith's notion of the > 'formalesque' does elide the pop term and of course it > didn't catch on - but it was a nice try. > > All the best, > Pam > > > Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 12:11:43 -0400 > From: ALDON L NIELSEN > Subject: Re: How about 'Formalesque'? > > the problem, of course, is that these two terms are > overlapping, not > substitutes > for one another -- much as we've had the problem of > people conflating > postmodernism and poststructuralism in ways that they > probably would > not > confuse modernism and structuralism -- > > and while there are competing versions of the > postmodern (and many here > will > know that I lean far more toward the Lyotard side than > to Jamesons's > sympomatologies), I confess that I have never quite > grasped why so many > find > "postmodern" a more problematic term than "modernism" > -- > Olson's version of the postmodern, rooted more in > philosophical > disagreements > than in categories of stylistic features, strikes me > still as closer to > the > mark than, say, Ihab Hassan, to invoke an already > almost forgotten name > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com/ > Web site : Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ > Associate editor : Jacket - http://jacketmagazine.com/index.html > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > ____________________________________________________ > On Yahoo!7 > Dating: It's free to join and check out our great singles! > http://www.yahoo7.com.au/personals > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:12:16 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Uk prod. mc yoshi: http://www.nefisa.co.uk MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.nefisa.co.uk MAY 31- Two articles, one of great interest to those who want to know a little more about Bolivias new President, http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/05/16/a-well-of-hypocrisy/ who is welcome to come stay in my house anytime, and another very incisive article http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/04/05/im-with-wolfowitz/ on the world bank and some of the history of it. I recommend the first one if you don't have much time, it's really worth it. Both of these were both written by a very smart and caring man who I once saw giving a talk in London many years ago, George Monbiot, his website has also been added to my links section http://www.nefisa.co.uk/links_of_nefisa.htm - you'll find many interesting pieces there so explore it. On a side-note, if you've ever wondered just what the world bank is then go check Wikipedia, they have a good in depth 'overview', right here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_bank educate yaself . Related... I saw a documentary by Sean Langan maybe two years ago... in fact, here, I just found the link.. http://www.nefisa.co.uk/links_of_nefisa.htm he was basically travelling throughout South America, and in one of the programmes, in Argentina, he saw the implications that a lot of the policies of the World Bank and the IMF were having on the poorest people there. It was this image of these beautiful children running around a garbage site miles long, waiting for the truck to come and dump garbage, waiting for it as if it were an ice-cream van. It really messed me up. When the truck dumped all those bags of waste down into the site, these kids ran to the bags, and ripped them open, and ate the garbage. The rotten left-overs. True it was quite a sensationalist bit of film, but it's ridiculously obvious that these big financial corporations are the systems that have the happiness of the world in their hands (to put it nicely, and poetically). Solutions to all these horrible injustices will come soon, and some already exist, but as far as mainstream society goes, we all have to be better educated on these problems, as intricately as possible, before we start collectively finding solutions. No use looking for people to blame, it's all about knowing the deal. Read that first article on Bolivia's new Presidente up above, it's good. Peace, Y. http://www.nefisa.co.uk ___ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:13:47 -0700 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ishaq Organization: selah7 Subject: Haiti tribunal establishes responsibilities for atrocities MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT http://ender.indymedia.org/?q=node/227 Haiti tribunal establishes responsibilities for atrocities By G. Dunkel Montreal Published May 30, 2006 10:12 PM The Fourth International Tribunal on Haiti, like the three before it, aimed at exposing individual responsibility for the crimes committed in Haiti after the United States, France and Canada collectively coordinated the coup and kidnapping of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide on Feb. 29, 2004. Ramsey Clark reports on last year'sCommission of Inquiry in Haiti. Ramsey Clark reports on last year's Commission of Inquiry in Haiti. WW photo: G. Dunkel The tribunal's political point about the role of the United Nations as a front, a tool and a cover for these three big capitalist countries was sharpened by the fact that newly elected Haitian President René Préval has not been able to release the hundreds of political prisoners, almost all Aristide supporters, that the de-facto regime threw in jail. He hasn't even been able to denounce the agreement that Gérard Latortue, the president of Haiti imposed by the UN, made giving the UN's CIVPOL (Civilian Police) control of Haiti's national police (PNH) and prisons for the next two- and-a-half years. Held in Montreal May 27 at the Université de Montréal, the tribunal was a success. Four hundred people, a strong majority of them from the Haitian community in Quebec, came, even though the Montreal cops had blocked off the whole neighborhood because an international bicycle race was using the roads. The tribunal had been widely promoted on French and Creole radio shows. Parts of the program were in French and Creole, but most was in English. Simultaneous translation from English to French was available. Anthony Fenton, a journalist and researcher, presented Canada's role in "subverting and destroying democracy in Haiti and destabilizing its government" both before and after the coup-knapping of Aristide. Ramsey Clark, former attorney general of the United States who led the Tribunal's Commission of Inquiry in Haiti last year, put the videotaped testimony into political and historical context. Clark pointed out that in 1804, when Haiti won its independence from France--at such a high cost that perhaps half the Haitian people died in that struggle--the Haitian people only had to confront one world power. "Now the Haitian people must confront the whole world in the form of the United Nations, which is subservient to the United States." Clark continued: "Unless there is accountability now, the same forces that killed Dessalines [the leader who declared Haiti independent] and removed Aristide twice, unless their individual agents are held responsible, Haiti will not obtain real independence and it is unclear how long the government put into power by this last election will last. Never doubt the importance of this commission and its role in supporting the Haitian people." After Clark spoke some of the videotaped testimony that the Commission of Inquiry had gathered was presented. A high point was the testimony of an old woman who lived in one of the houses that attachés burned in 2005 under the protection of CIVPOL. Attachés are freelancers hired by members of the PNH to do their dirty work--killing and mutilating people--and let the PNH disclaim responsibility. When the attachés told her to lie down on the floor, she explained, "I knew they were going to disappear me. So I ran out the door and away." Her testimony and that of others established that the UN Mission to Stabilize Haiti protected the PNH and its attachés when they attacked areas like Bel Air when people were resisting. Two UN officers were directly responsible for atrocities; their cases will be referred to the International Court of Justice. Brian Concannon, who was acting as the tribunal's juge d'instruction, a magistrate who examines the evidence in a criminal case under Haitian law, closed the session by examining the responsibility of Bernard Gousse. Gousse was justice minister when these atrocities were committed, and threw most of the political prisoners in jail. While Gousse's general responsibility is clear, the only person in the United States who could testify on the details of his illegal acts, the Rev. Jean Juste, suffers from cancer and was not available. His deeds will be examined at another tribunal. The next International Tribunal is scheduled for Port-au-Prince in September. This article is copyright under a Creative Commons License. Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY, NY 10011 Email: ww@workers.org Subscribe wwnews-subscribe@workersworld.net Support independent news http://www.workers.org/orders/donate.php site promotion Page printed from: http://www.workers.org/2006/world/haiti-0608/ ___ Stay Strong\ \ "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...in time, we will look back to this age with incredulity and amazement -- and victories like Hamas in Israel will be the *best* of our memories." -- mumia abu jamal -- "what state? what union?" \ "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad \ http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a006-braithwaite-01.php \ http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7255.php \ http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date \ http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/en_fins__clichy-sous_bois_amixquiet-_lordpatch_the_giver__.mp3 \ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ \ } ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:06:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: Berkson in St. Petersburg Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bill Berkson "After the Medusa" Poetry Reading & Lecture 12:30 - !:30 p.m. Tuesday, June 27 Summer Literary Seminars SLS Lecture Hall Herzen University 6 Kazanskaya (directly behind the Kazansky Cathedral) St. Petersburg, Russia http://www.sumlitsem.org/russia/programinfo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 13:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: postmodernisit? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed re parks and simulacra--ther's a great short piece by Poe, done to accompany a plate engraving, called "Morning on the Wissahicaon", "Morning" punning on "mourning" as it begins with a beautiful description of a languid journey i na msall boat through an exuquiste scenery of still wild American Nature, complete with an emblematic deer and a noble savage--all so refreshing, so wild, so free, such an escape from the growing cities and towns! Yet soon enough the narrator discovers that the "wild" land is a park recently purchased, tamed and trimmed and shaped by an Englishman, stocked with tamed animals and that the noble savge is a hired servant dressed in costume. Now America is not being colonized, replaced by new buildings and crop, industries, roads--but by simulacra of its wild state, a sort of "wild life reserve theme park" run for tourists by foreign investors--in a bitter irony, the defeated British reclaiming as it were the colonies for a new form of exploitation. In "The Painter of Modern Life" Baudelaire defined Modernism: He (Constantin Guys, the "painter of modern life") is looking for that quality which you must allow me to call "modernity"; for I know of no better word to express the idea I have in mind. He makes it his business to extract from fashion whatever element it may contain of poetry within history, to distill the eternal from the transitory . . . By "modernity" I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable . . . This transitory, fugitive element, whose metamorphoses are so rapid, must on no account be despised or dispensed with. By neglecting it, you cannot fail to tumble into the abyss of an abstract and indeterminate beauty . . . A little over a century later Warhol offers a postmodern version of the ephemeral/eternal: in the future everyone will be famous for fifteen minutes. Whether or not you think the bomb is postmodern in its effects, an attitude towards it could be seen as a shift in regards to global extinction: DR STRANGELOVE OR HOW I STOPPED WORRYING AND LEARNED TO LOVE THE BOMB. And of course it is all right for some nations to have the bomb, but not others. Nearing the very End, Hitler in a discussion regarding the new jets said that if only one could just reach NYC and destroy even a couple skyscrapers the effect it would have on the USA would be staggering pychologically. He believed the Americans were almost incapable of dealing with an attack on their own soil. Was the effect even greater when the attack was done not with foreign planes launched from abroad, but American ones hi jacked at home? In "Compostion as Explanation" Gertrude Stein writes of the interval between something being seen as new and ugly and as famiiliar and beaitufl becomes less and less--that the interval between what the artist sees just ahead, the avant garde as it were, and what the world as whole is, becomes less and less. People are more quickly able to recognize in art what it is presenting of the world they live in. (She notes that when the first camouflaged tanks were seen in the streets of Paris during WW1 Picasso pointed at them--esp. the camouflaged painting--and said--"we did that".) In the work of Paul Virillio this speed is continually accelerating in the related realms of the military/surveilance and the visual. One of the shifts of post modernity if you will is the arrival of television, the transistor radio, ever more portable recording devices, film cameras both still and moving, video equipement--all in the hands of pirvate citizens--alongside the explosion in surveillance devices in the sky and in buildings, streets, offices, schools, institutions, gas stations--everywhere. How many news events that aren't captured by official cameras are done so by private ones--the Zapruder film--Rodney King--Abu-Ghraib etc etc etc etc--not to mention armies of papparazzi--the stray stalker . . . the fan--the next of kin--the seemingly kindly neighbor--the soon to be ex-husband of one's wife-to-be--the kid with photo journalism fantasies--a mean spirited co-worker--a random passer-by-- One is a site of continual surveillance--planned and random--and can in turn be the site of one's own broadcast--creating a supplemental audience to accompany the already imposed one-- Imagine Emily Dickinson in the world of the blogger writing her "letter to the world , which never wrote me"--maybe even taping herself live on screen as she writes and then holds up the ms so is documented . . . every idiosyncracy of spelling capitalization grammar and syntax . . . every fingerprint . . . And aren't there hundreds of thousands --millions--of people doing just that right now? (Like us for instance--) Between surveillance and display--for such massive numbers of people on such massive scales--the possibilities and probablilities of anything and everything happening become increased--from the worst nightmare to the best of all possible worlds . . . For sale priceless Bodies, not belonging to any known race, world, sex, progeny! Wealth rising up at each step! Sale of diamonds with no control! For sale anarchy for the masses; irrerepressible satisfaction for superior amateurs; terrible death for the faithful and lovers! For sale dwellings and migrations, sports, fantasies and perfect comfort, with the noise, movement, and future they create! For sale results of mathematics and unheard-of scales of harmony. Discoveries and unsuspected terminologies, immediate possesion. Wild and infinite leap to invisible splendor, to immaterial delights--and ravishing secrets for each vice--and terrifying gaeity for the masses. For sale bodies, voices, the tremendous, unquestionable wealth, what will never be sold. The salesmen have not reached the end of the sale! Travelers do not have to render accounts immediately. from: --A. Rimbaud, "Sale" in ILLUMINATIONS (trans. W. Fowlie) >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: postmodernisit? >Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 21:56:45 -0400 > >Just a word on those funny American natiional parks. You should know that >there are vast roadless areas to get lost in within the parks. And there >are all the other wild lands, in the national monuments and national >forests, among other places. About a third of the US is federal land, a >good half of that roadless. > >A bear was shot last week in Newark, NJ, a trainstop from Manhattan. > >Mark > > >At 07:13 PM 5/30/2006, you wrote: >>You seem to have delberately misread me. But never mind. >> >>When the dinosaurs became extinct, most people believe it was because a >>meteor hit the planet, causing massive ecological changes. What is >>different >>now is the element of human agency. It was possible before for people to >>believe that even if they died, the natural world as we know it would >>continue. But we're taking it all with us: we're in the middle of the >>biggest mass extinction since the dinosaurs, losing as many as 50,000 >>species a year. And we are doing that. Not some plague, not some natural >>disaster. We are the disaster. >> >>Of course it links up to the fire hydrant. And to Disneyland, and to zoos, >>and to those funny American national parks with pristine roads - the >>natural >>world nostalgically recalled as man intended - artificial, safe, tamed, >>mediated. (I realise that humans are part of nature, and that urban >>environments are ecologies as much as anything else - this is for the sake >>of argument - not that anyone seems to read my caveats). >> >>Perhaps sentient cockroaches will take over in a few million years, but I >>fear that I will not be interested when they do. >> >>A >> >> >>On 31/5/06 2:44 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: >> >> > Pfui. We can only destroy more people than ever before, perhaps all >> > of us. But after the nuclear apocalypse something will replace this >> > cycle of life as this one replaced the "Dinosaur Cycle", for lack of >> > a better term, after the meteor apocalypse. >> > >> > Besides, entire populations and cultures have been continually >> > destroyed through the aeons by disease and genocide. It's not "post- >> > modern" to fear extinction of one's self, family, clan, city, region, >> > culture. Human history is the history of such extinctions. To fear >> > such extinction cannot reasonably be held to be "post-modern" unless >> > you're prepared to say that pretty much all of human history is "post- >> > modern" -- which one imagines is beyond what even the theorists of >> > the post-modern are willing to say. >> > >> > Still, even if you are willing to say such a thing, I don't see how >> > it gets us any closer to why a movie-set fire hydrant momentarily >> > mistaken for a real one (or any other of thes examples offered) is >> > emblematic of what is distinctively post-modern about the potential >> > destruction of human life on the planet. >> >> >> >>Alison Croggon >> >>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au >>Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:00:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:18 PM 5/31/2006, you wrote: > re parks and simulacra--ther's a great short piece by Poe, done > to accompany a plate engraving, called "Morning on the > Wissahicaon", "Morning" punning on "mourning" as it begins with a > beautiful description of a languid journey i na msall boat through > an exuquiste scenery of still wild American Nature, complete with > an emblematic deer and a noble savage--all so refreshing, so wild, > so free, such an escape from the growing cities and towns! Yet > soon enough the narrator discovers that the "wild" land is a park > recently purchased, tamed and trimmed and shaped by an Englishman, > stocked with tamed animals and that the noble savge is a hired > servant dressed in costume. Now America is not being colonized, > replaced by new buildings and crop, industries, roads--but by > simulacra of its wild state, a sort of "wild life reserve theme > park" run for tourists by foreign investors--in a bitter irony, the > defeated British reclaiming as it were the colonies for a new form > of exploitation. Before the arrival of Europeans indigenous peoples in the US northeast (that I know of, and probably elsewhere also) cleared the forest understory with controlled burns, making game animals more visible and affording them with better browse. They could be said to have harvested rather than hunted, the forests in fact large, unfenced game parks. One has to wonder what we mean by wild. In Australia aboriginal peoples still manage their home ranges with controlled burns. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:00:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit alexander saliby wrote: > Mark, > I lived in Newark; it is not a train stop from Manhattan. More accurately Newark exists in a different zone both of time and space from the rest of the nation. Newark may in truth be the only postmodern city in the nation. How many other major metropolitan centers can attest to having a mayor who brought the Mafia to control in the city government? Of course the conviction...that's a wonderful story of its own. > > And how apt to see the old Newark Bears move to action in this manner...though I thought they played baseball, but then I haven't been there in ages. > Point of information: the bear was killed in Irvington, the city nextdoor to Newark, and a place that makes Newark look almost like a place of hope. I think of Groucho's "I shot an elephant in my pajamas. What it was doing in my pajamas I have no idea." How did a bear get from the mountains of western NJ to a toilet like Irvington? Did he have that little taste? The Mafia in Newark was not an Italian sole property. Everyone thought it was while Hugh Addonizio (cousin of Kim Addonizio, by her own admission) was mayor, with his backup of Tony Imperiale, that fat bag of manure whose goons patrolled the streets during the 1967 riots armed with baseball bats and probably worse. In 1970 Ken Gibson became Newark's first Black Mayor. He also became its most prominent Black criminal, who got "pro" for a construction fix. Sharpe James is now out of power after 20 years of open corruption, politically appointed cops, and -------------------- Ken Wolman kenwolman.com rainermaria.typepad.com "Do, or do not. There is no try." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:01:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Wolman Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447DF5CF.1040208@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Damn thing went out before I was ready to send it. In fact I was in the process of cancelling it. So you do the same. kw ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:16:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20060531155431.04b75580@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed At the risk of sounding cynical "making game animals more visible and affording them with better browse"--doesn't that sound like making them both easier to keep an eye on to kill and to be fattening them up for just such an an occaision? "Wild" in the way both Poe and myself are using it is meant to be ironic-- >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: postmodernisit? >Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:00:12 -0400 > >At 02:18 PM 5/31/2006, you wrote: >> re parks and simulacra--ther's a great short piece by Poe, done to >>accompany a plate engraving, called "Morning on the Wissahicaon", >>"Morning" punning on "mourning" as it begins with a beautiful description >>of a languid journey i na msall boat through an exuquiste scenery of still >>wild American Nature, complete with an emblematic deer and a noble >>savage--all so refreshing, so wild, so free, such an escape from the >>growing cities and towns! Yet soon enough the narrator discovers that the >>"wild" land is a park recently purchased, tamed and trimmed and shaped by >>an Englishman, stocked with tamed animals and that the noble savge is a >>hired servant dressed in costume. Now America is not being colonized, >>replaced by new buildings and crop, industries, roads--but by simulacra of >>its wild state, a sort of "wild life reserve theme park" run for tourists >>by foreign investors--in a bitter irony, the defeated British reclaiming >>as it were the colonies for a new form of exploitation. > >Before the arrival of Europeans indigenous peoples in the US northeast >(that I know of, and probably elsewhere also) cleared the forest understory >with controlled burns, making game animals more visible and affording them >with better browse. They could be said to have harvested rather than >hunted, the forests in fact large, unfenced game parks. One has to wonder >what we mean by wild. > >In Australia aboriginal peoples still manage their home ranges with >controlled burns. > >Mark _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:18:37 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: <447D6ED0.9285.FC045B@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 1/6/06 12:24 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Tired of arguing on your side? Did you decide you'd take a flyer on > my side of the argument for a bit just for a lark? What? I've been saying the same thing all along. There seems to be something amiss with your cognitive skills when you read. I, however, am going to stick to my resolution not to rise to your baiting. A Alison Croggon Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:32:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: postmodernisit? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:16 PM 5/31/2006, you wrote: >At the risk of sounding cynical "making game animals more visible >and affording them with better browse"--doesn't that sound like >making them both easier to keep an eye on to kill and to be >fattening them up for just such an an occaision? Duh.