========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 00:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Creative Writing; Theory beyond practice (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/Mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009E_01C7152F.FFF15240" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C7152F.FFF15240 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE The way forward in creative writing theory Creative Writing: Theory beyond practice Nigel Krauth & Tess Brady (editors) Creative Writing: Theory beyond practice is a collection of new major essay= s by international scholars and sets the agenda for creative writing studies in the next ten years. Here writers, teachers and theorists identify theoretical underpinnings for creativity and writing in a broad spectrum of experience =96 architecture, psychology, ecology, philosophy, physiology, love, morality, sculpture and the body. This new research lays innovative foundations for insight into th= e nature of writing. A book for practitioners, teachers and students, it prepares a way for understanding the frameworks in which creative writing takes place in the early twenty-first century. New major essays from: Inez Baranay; Tess Brady; Donna Lee Brien; Kevin Brophy; Paul Dawson; Brian Dibble; Marcelle Freiman; Anna Gibbs; Nigel Krauth; Jeri Kroll; Lance Olsen= ; Hazel Smith; Alan Sondheim; Anne Surma; Thom Swiss & Maria Damon; Andrew Taylor; McKenzie Wark; Jennifer Webb; Claire Woods Krauth, Nigel & Tess Brady, eds (2006) Creative Writing: Theory beyond practice. Brisbane: Post Pressed. Purchase your copy online now, and get more information, at http://www.snodger.com.au/bookstore.html Price $34.95 Aus + postage (approx $27.56 US ; =A314.02 UK) Dr Tess Brady www.tessbrady.com.au Creative Writing: Theory beyond practice Tess Brady & Nigel Krauth (Eds.) http://www.snodger.com.au/bookstore.html ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C7152F.FFF15240-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 02:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents Critical Documents and Jason Zeh Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward ------------------ Boog City presents =20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 Critical Documents (Oxford, Ohio) Thurs. Dec. 7, 6:00 p.m., free ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC =20 Event will be hosted by Critical Documents editor jUStin!katKO Featuring readings from cris cheek William R. Howe Brenda Iijima jUStin!katKO Mark Mendoza Keith Tuma With music from Jason Zeh=20 There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. =20 Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum =8B=8B=8B=8B=8B- *Critical Documents* Critical Documents was started in 2005 by jUStin!katKO. It publishes the journal Plantarchy as well as chapbooks of contemporary poetry. Plantarchy brings together the work of established and emerging practitioners from the U.K. and U.S. Whenever possible, the editorial agenda is to print sequences or longish excerpts of work. Issue 3, consisting solely of cris cheek's The Church =AD The School =AD The Beer will be released at Boog City's Critical Documents evening in NYC on December 7th. Plantarchy is available at Bridge Street (DC), Rust Belt (Buffalo), Talking Leaves (Buffalo), Normal's (Baltimore), City Lights (San Francisco), and Woodland Pattern (Milwaukee). It is archived at SUNY-Buffalo, the University of Kansas, Ohio State University, and the Marvin Sackner Archive. *Performer Bios* **cris cheek is a poet, writer, book artist, publisher, new media practitioner, talker, and interdisciplinary performer whose writing has bee= n commissioned and shown all over the western world, often in multiple versions using diverse media for production and circulation. The work has a= n increasingly site-responsive proclivity and is frequently created in forms of collaboration with other artists. He collaborates with Kirsten Lavers under the name TNWK. The Church =AD The School =AD The Beer is a book of talks being released from Critical Documents. **William R. Howe is a poet, book artist, publisher, editor, performance artist, and visual artist. He is a visiting assistant professor at Miami University of Ohio, in Oxford, Ohio. His work, which most often appears in small event-based editions, has also appeared in Plantarchy, Mirage #4/Period(ical), Ferrum Wheel, The Gig, and others. Along with cris cheek and Keith Tuma, he has been accused of being a heretic. He runs the Putitupor broadside series, and he and his wife, L.A. Howe, edit Slack Buddha Press. **Brenda Iijima is the author of Around Sea (O Books). Animate, Inanimate, Inanimate Aims is forthcoming from Litmus Press and Eco Quarry Bellwether i= s forthcoming from Outside Voices. A chapbook, Rabbit Lesson will be publishe= d by Fewer & Further Press. She is the editor of Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs= . Iijima is also a visual artist. **jUStin!katKO is an intermedia writer and publisher. He has collaborated o= n videos and text with Keith Tuma and collaborates with Camille PB under the collective alias Coupons-Coupons. He co-operates Meshworks: the Miami University Archive of Writing in Performance, co-edits On Company Time with Keston Sutherland, and edits the poetry journal Plantarchy (Critical Documents). **Mark Mendoza tries hard to listen in Oxford, OH. **Keith Tuma is the author of Fishing by Obstinate Isles: Modern and Postmodern British Poetry and American Readers and various essays on poetry= , poetics, and culture. He is the editor of Anthology of Twentieth Century British and Irish Poetry and Rainbow Darkness, an anthology of African American poetry and essays about it, and co-editor of books on Mina Loy and poetry and performance. Holiday in Tikrit is a chapbook from Critical Documents, written in collaboration with jUStin!katKO. With cris cheek and Bill Howe (as the Three Little Heretics) he is the author of the multimedia poem and travelogue Critical Path: Into the Bush. Some of his recent poems are collected in the chapbook Topical Ointment. He is professor and chair o= f the department of English at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. **Jason Zeh, a magnetic cassette tape composer and Xerox artist from Bowlin= g Green, Ohio, creates music that successfully combines elements of drone, electro-acoustic, and noise. Zeh=B9s work relies on the creation of intimate social encounters through the use of extreme quiet punctuated by steep inclines toward moments of extreme loudness. Live shows combine a mixing of previously recorded source sounds with real time manipulation of cassette tape through the use of modified tape decks and dismantled cassettes. The relationship Zeh has to the cassettes and tape decks used to record and manipulate the sounds is not unlike that of many laptop artists in terms of the meticulous sculpting of sound that is employed in order to create emotionally charged and aesthetically dynamic compositions without the stifled and overly technical feel of some electronic music produced by computers. Zeh has performed throughout the midwest and east and west coast= s with noise artists such as John Wiese, Wolf Eyes, Burning Star Core, Hair Police, Jessica Rylan, Withdrawal Method, Daniel Menche, The Cherry Point, and Peter B, and he has toured with Mike Shiflet, SIXES, Cotton Museum, Gerritt, Leslie Keffer, 2673, and Jesse Kudler. =8B=8B=8B=8B=8B=8B Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues =20 http://plantarchy.us http://www.thingsnotworthkeeping.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzDgnBTww4Y0 http://www.slackbuddhapress.blogspot.com/ http://www.muohio.edu/meshworks http://oncompanytime.biz http://couponscoupons.blogspot.com http://www.florb.com/jasonzeh/ http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=3Duser.viewprofile&friendid=3D7= 9 648 =8B=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:08:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: alphabits, by nick-e melville Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As we wave goodbye to the z of the alphabliss or non-nursery rhymes by Bob Marcacci, it's time to wave hello to the a of alphabits by nick-e melville. New series starting today at: http://www.logolalia.com/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ Regards, Dan Submissions of artworks based around the complete sequence of the roman alphabet which can be presented a letter at a time over the course of 26 days are invited. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 09:15:13 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathleen Ossip Subject: Subject: Joe Francis Doerr - Requesting information about MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alex, I don't have any more information on him than a quick Google reveals, but I want to thank you for piquing my interest w/ your enthusiasm. The online poems I've found corroborate everything you've said, and I've ordered the book. I'm grateful for the new discovery. Kathleen Ossip Joe Francis Doerr I think this gentleman is one of the most relevant and compelling voices in poetry today. For me, this what I've been looking for - no smoke and mirrors, no slack poetry designed to serve an otherwise incestuous cliche of bad poetry mongers, to slight of hand that leaves readers thinking they just came (but didn't). Can anyone provide me with additional information, because I've just stumbled upon his work. Back channel. Where can I find him. Time, I will appreciate it! Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 10:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: real-life vignettes + google should go to hell before i do In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Alan, You sound like a Mediaval monk transcribing/translating/recording/preserving manuscripts - which in some ways you are- with a dash of Sufism added ("an entire universe of pixels, of which this, and this and that, are an infinitesimal part"). Ciao, Murat On 11/29/06, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > [please note: nikuko.blogspot.com is unable to be updated. google has > taken > over blogger which went to beta software; i haven't been able to access > the > site since. corresponding with google is useless; four letters only > produced > the response that i had to log in correctly. if anyone knows of better - > i.e. > usable - blog sites/software out there (i don't have and can't afford my > own > server), please let me know back-channel. thanks, alan] > > real-life vignettes > > I'm tired of these real-life vignettes, somewhat digitally manipulated, as > if there's a gross philosophical point to be made through the sound or > sight of the singer or dancer or walker: what foolery. Nausee, Sartre, > defuge, overwhelm me, and I'm sure if you are following video after video, > text after text, sound after sound, they overwhelm you as well. No amount > of philosophy, no quantity of poetics squeezed from the soul of the imag- > inary, can compensate for one minute of reality rehashed. As if it were > possible to hack the landscape, the mise en scene. In any case, there's > always the appeal to god, as in this instance, or the Pringy church yawps > - spirit makes everything come out well in the end, at least aesthetically > - at least for believers. And I mean: nothing can be farther from the > truth - which may also be modified: nothing can be farther than the truth > - isn't that always the case? > > http://www.asondheim.org/chch.mov > > All these vignettes involve real people and hard rock, mountains, forests, > villages cities, churches, granges, pastures, meadows, cliffs, glaciers, > bluffs, hills, streams, rivers, trees, goats, choughs, flowers, roads, > paths. And what with the whispering, there is that, the slightest sound > transcribed into pixel after pixel - an entire universe of pixels, of > which this, and this and that, are an infinitesimal part. We climbed down > the north tower of the cathedral in Geneva, rounded a pillar; in a > distance, a choir was singing. Here now the singing loops and transforms; > the image isolates madonna and magdalene, bracketing the right-hand side > of the screen. And that is all, the whole like the paste of spirit > perhaps, or the slight spew of afterbirth. > > breakneck speed to infinity http://www.asondheim.org/whoosh.mp4 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 13:39:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: speed. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed speed. i can't slow up. death is an hysteria. i don't care about your gender. i send out work as soon as it's done. i make work as soon as i think of it. i read as fast as i can. i watch news and practice music while i read. i know if i slow up i'll die. i know there will be a missive or missile here in this space that will not be sent. i know the missive will be the tag or curlicue. i know it will be the conjunction of my death. i read the con- junction as not both life and death. i read the conjunction as neither life nor death. i eat fast. i never sleep properly. i dream theory and practice. i hunt on the internet. i shape ride on the internet. i speak here and do not speak elsewhere. speech is a privilege. i cannot pronounce other languages in proper order. i cannot pronounce the rudiments of speech. i breath fast. i get out of breath fast. death promises slowing. death does not halt. i watch myself as i speak. i watch myself as i remember. i remember remembering. i remember what i have forgotten. i watch my brain at work. i remember watching. i know what i forget will be my last. i know if i forgot i should be reminded to die. i am afraid of being reminded to die. life is a remission. life is under remission. i cannot keep up with myself. i watch myself ahead of myself. i am never behind. i am always ahead. if i am comfortable with speed i am not speed- ing. i must speed into discomfort. i must be beyond myself. i must be beyond ahead of myself. i play music fast. i want to get all the music out before i can no longer play music. i want to get out this absolute music. i want to theorize as bulwark and therapeutic. i want to theorize before i can no longer theorize. before i can no longer theorize in complexity. i guard my theorization. i guard my brain and my speed. if i think of a sentence i say that sentence. if i think of a poem i write that poem. if i have an idea i write that idea. if i think of a video i make that video. i make that video when i think of the video. i edit that video while i make that video. i am afraid of passing out. i am afraid of dizziness. i speed through dizziness. if i stop i will die. if i die this thought will not be finished. i must finish this thought. i have a new thought now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 11:01:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen Subject: Call for Submission: First Person Queer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 FYI =96 Arsenal Pulp Press is a great publisher, friendly and accessible too=85. Call for Submissions FIRST PERSON QUEER: Who We Are, Where We've Come From, Where We're Going edited by Richard Labont=E9 and Lawrence Schimel for publication in Fall 2007 by Arsenal Pulp Press We're looking for short (under 1500 words) first person essays from across the spectrum of queer experience that depict the diversity, the complexity, and the excitement of contemporary GLBTQ life. We want to be surprised, and to surprise our readers, with intensely personal experiences from writers of diverse genders, ages, races, and orientations, informing us about unusual aspects of our lives. Comprehending queer codes, exulting in nonconformity, expressing gender deviance, confronting assimilation, having to "pass": write about the theory of your life. Discuss sissyhood, parenting skills, sexual experiences (play or work), urban pleasures, personal choices: write about the practice of your life. We've all got a story to tell. Share yours. Express your "I". Topic and tone=97witty, reflective, satirical, learned=97are open to your imaginations, as long as the writing is real. What's going to make us sit up and pay attention are essays that go beyond the traditional tales of coming out, first love, breaking up, the death of a lover, the acceptance=97or not=97of parents. These are important stories, and intriguing twists on them will be considered, but they=92ve been done; we're unlikely to include more than one or two. So: offer us something different, something less easy to categorize. Give us a glimpse of an instructive physical moment or a transcendent emotional passage from your dyke, fag, tranny, bi, or otherwise queer life. Prose or graphic/comix narratives, no poetry. Submit your work by email, as an attachment in .doc format, with author's last name and story title in the file name: Surname-Title.doc, to Richard Labont=E9 at: fpqueer@gmail. com Please include contact details and bio in the .doc file, not just in your email; submissions that are considered will be separated from the emails. Deadline: Feb. 28, 2007. Payment: a small honorarium and one copy of the book will be paid. (Please note that payment is in Canadian funds.)=20 As an anthology for a Canadian publisher, preference will be given to submissions from Canadian writers.=20 But the anthology is open to submissions from all writers, and is actively interested in non-North American writers. About the editors Richard Labont=E9 has been the editor of the BEST GAY EROTICA series since 1997, and of the anthologies COUNTRY BOYS and HOT GAY EROTICA. He writes the syndicated review column "Book Marks" for Q Syndicate (www.qsyndicate.com) and also the Gay Men's Edition of Books to Watch Out For (www.btwof.com). For many years the general manager of A Different Light Bookstores, he moved home to Ontario, Canada in 2001, where he lives with his husband, Asa Dean Liles, and their dog Zak.=20 Lawrence Schimel is an award-winning author and anthologist who has published over 80 books in many different genres, including PoMoSEXUALS: CHALLENGING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT GENDER AND SEXUALITY (with Carol Queen), BEST DATE EVER: TRUE STORIES THAT CELEBRATE GAY RELATIONS, THE DRAG QUEEN OF ELFLAND, THINGS INVISIBLE TO SEE: LESBIAN AND GAY TALES OF MAGIC REALISM, THE MAMMOTH BOOK OF NEW GAY EROTICA, SWITCH HITTERS: LESBIANS WRITE GAY MALE EROTICA AND GAY MEN WRITE LESBIAN EROTICA (with Carol Queen), and TWO BOYS IN LOVE, among others. Since 1999, he has lived in Madrid, Spain. Together, Labont=E9 and Schimel are the editors of THE FUTURE IS QUEER, also published by Arsenal Pulp Press. About the publisher Arsenal Pulp Press (www.arsenalpulp.com) is an independent Canadian publisher located in Vancouver, BC, which has published titles such as QUEER VIEW MIRROR edited by James Johnstone and Karen X. Tulchinsky, OUT/LINES: UNDERGROUND GAY GRAPHICS FROM BEFORE STONEWALL, WITH A ROUGH TONGUE: FEMMES WRITE PORN edited by Amber Dawn and Trish Kelley, and the Little Sisters Classics series, among many other queer-interest titles. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 13:02:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: speed. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable meth brings out the egomaniac in us all, Alan meth me in St. Mayhem, Sondheim, tl -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:40 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: speed. speed. i can't slow up. death is an hysteria. i don't care about your gender. i send out work as soon as it's done. i make work as soon as i think of it. i read as fast as i can. i watch news and practice music while i read. i know if i slow up i'll die. i know there will be a missive or missile here in this space that will not be sent. i know the missive will be the tag or curlicue. i know it will be the conjunction of my death. i read the con- junction as not both life and death. i read the conjunction as neither life nor death. i eat fast. i never sleep properly. i dream theory and practice. i hunt on the internet. i shape ride on the internet. i speak here and do not speak elsewhere. speech is a privilege. i cannot pronounce other languages in proper order. i cannot pronounce the rudiments of speech. i breath fast. i get out of breath fast. death promises slowing. death does not halt. i watch myself as i speak. i watch myself as i remember. i remember remembering. i remember what i have forgotten. i watch my brain at work. i remember watching. i know what i forget will be my last. i know if i forgot i should be reminded to die. i am afraid of being reminded to die. life is a remission. life is under remission. i cannot keep up with myself. i watch myself ahead of myself. i am never behind. i am always ahead. if i am comfortable with speed i am not speed- ing. i must speed into discomfort. i must be beyond myself. i must be beyond ahead of myself. i play music fast. i want to get all the music out before i can no longer play music. i want to get out this absolute music. i want to theorize as bulwark and therapeutic. i want to theorize before i can no longer theorize. before i can no longer theorize in complexity. i guard my theorization. i guard my brain and my speed. if i think of a sentence i say that sentence. if i think of a poem i write that poem. if i have an idea i write that idea. if i think of a video i make that video. i make that video when i think of the video. i edit that video while i make that video. i am afraid of passing out. i am afraid of dizziness. i speed through dizziness. if i stop i will die. if i die this thought will not be finished. i must finish this thought. i have a new thought now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 14:35:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: speed. In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A05291F@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Do cocaine, you pauper. PP ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 14:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Ira Lightman article at The Argotist Online Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu Article by Ira Lightman called "Performing the (e.g. Visual) Poem" at The Argotist Online: http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Lightman%20essay.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 15:20:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: speed. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Garden Hears A gardener hears this conversation ("what about the one who makes it heard?") a flower was asking the garden one night. ("I am condemned to this because of you, and why were you?") and the garden pointingo the house, it smiled ("may be someone may need to take a flower to the cemetary?") since then, as if closing the lid of a coffin, I lock the door of the house. Alan, Amazing, for the the issue is an irresistible passivity. Ciao, Murat On 12/1/06, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > speed. > > i can't slow up. death is an hysteria. i don't care about your gender. i > send out work as soon as it's done. i make work as soon as i think of it. > i read as fast as i can. i watch news and practice music while i read. i > know if i slow up i'll die. i know there will be a missive or missile here > in this space that will not be sent. i know the missive will be the tag or > curlicue. i know it will be the conjunction of my death. i read the con- > junction as not both life and death. i read the conjunction as neither > life nor death. i eat fast. i never sleep properly. i dream theory and > practice. i hunt on the internet. i shape ride on the internet. i speak > here and do not speak elsewhere. speech is a privilege. i cannot pronounce > other languages in proper order. i cannot pronounce the rudiments of > speech. i breath fast. i get out of breath fast. death promises slowing. > death does not halt. i watch myself as i speak. i watch myself as i > remember. i remember remembering. i remember what i have forgotten. i > watch my brain at work. i remember watching. i know what i forget will be > my last. i know if i forgot i should be reminded to die. i am afraid of > being reminded to die. life is a remission. life is under remission. i > cannot keep up with myself. i watch myself ahead of myself. i am never > behind. i am always ahead. if i am comfortable with speed i am not speed- > ing. i must speed into discomfort. i must be beyond myself. i must be > beyond ahead of myself. i play music fast. i want to get all the music out > before i can no longer play music. i want to get out this absolute music. > i want to theorize as bulwark and therapeutic. i want to theorize before i > can no longer theorize. before i can no longer theorize in complexity. i > guard my theorization. i guard my brain and my speed. if i think of a > sentence i say that sentence. if i think of a poem i write that poem. if i > have an idea i write that idea. if i think of a video i make that video. i > make that video when i think of the video. i edit that video while i make > that video. i am afraid of passing out. i am afraid of dizziness. i speed > through dizziness. if i stop i will die. if i die this thought will not be > finished. i must finish this thought. i have a new thought now. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:30:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: L Guevarra Subject: NEW BOOK: The Complete Poetry Comments: To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Buffalo Poetics List: The University of California Press is pleased to announce the publication o= f: The Complete Poetry: A Bilingual Edition Poet and essayist Clayton Eshleman is a=20 recipient of the National Book Award and the=20 Landon Translation Prize. He is the cotranslator=20 of _C=E9sar Vallejo: The Complete Posthumous Poetry=20 _and _Aim=E9 C=E9saire: The Collected Poetry, _both=20 from UC Press. Among Mario Vargas Llosa's=20 prestigious literary awards are the National=20 Critics' Prize, the Peruvian National Prize, and=20 the Miguel de Cervantes Prize. He is the author=20 of more than twenty books. Efrain Kristal=20 is Professor of Comparative Literature at the=20 University of California, Los Angeles. Stephen=20 M. Hart is Professor of Spanish and Latin=20 American Studies at University College, London. http://go.ucpress.edu/VallejoComplete "Only the dauntless perseverance and the love=20 with which the translator has dedicated so many=20 years of his life to this task can explain why=20 the English version conveys, in all its boldness=20 and vigor, the unmistakable voice of C=E9sar=20 Vallejo."-Mario Vargas Llosa "Decades in the making, this faithful and=20 forceful complete text from poet and essayist=20 Eshleman deserves as much notice as any poetic=20 translation can get."-_Publishers Weekly_ This first translation of the complete poetry of=20 Peruvian C=E9sar Vallejo (1892-1938) makes=20 available to English speakers one of the greatest=20 achievements of twentieth-century world poetry.=20 Handsomely presented in facing-page Spanish and=20 English, this volume, translated by National Book=20 Award winner Clayton Eshleman, includes the=20 groundbreaking collections _The Black Heralds=20 _(1918), _Trilce _(1922), _Human Poems _(1939),=20 and _Spain, Take This Cup from Me _(1939). Vallejo's poetry takes the Spanish language to an=20 unprecedented level of emotional rawness and=20 stretches its grammatical possibilities. Striking=20 against theology with the very rhetoric of the=20 Christian faith, Vallejo's is a tragic=20 vision-perhaps the only one in the canon of=20 Spanish-language literature-in which salvation=20 and sin are one and the same. This edition=20 includes notes on the translation and a=20 fascinating translation memoir that traces=20 Eshleman's long relationship with Vallejo's=20 poetry. An introduction and chronology provide=20 further insights into Vallejo's life and work. =46ull information about the book, including the=20 table of contents, is available online:=20 http://go.ucpress.edu/VallejoComplete -- Lolita Guevarra Electronic Marketing Coordinator University of California Press Tel. 510.643.4738 | Fax 510.643.7127 lolita.guevarra@ucpress.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:59:04 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tanner Subject: Brautigan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all of you who responded to my Brautigan query. Really helpful = and great that so many people cared enough to get in touch. I'll be = taking up some points raised with the individuals concerned, where = possible, to save cluttering up this virtuous virtual space.Thanks = again.John Tanner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 13:06:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Fwd: Tarpaulin Sky Press, New Issue, New Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline okay, I'm biased but check out the latest great innovative writings in poetry and fiction here... and submit, please, especially if you are a prose writer who is able to break the iamb... (see ezra pound) eireene **** From: Editors, Tarpaulin Sky Press & Online Literary Journal Date: Dec 1, 2006 12:12 PM Subject: New Issue, New Books Dear Tarpaulin Sky Readers, Contributors, and Friends, We are pleased to announce the release of TARPAULIN SKY V4n2 Guest-edited by Selah Saterstrom http://www.tarpaulinsky.com NEW WORK BY Matthea Harvey, Eleni Sikelianos, Bin Ramke, Laird Hunt, Rebecca Brown, Joa= n Fiset, Elizabeth Rollins, Peter Markus, Brian Kiteley, Jindrich Styrsky, Tama Baldwin & Noah Saterstrom, Leisure Projects (Meredith Carruthers & Susannah Wesley), Bushwick Farms (Tara Cuthbert & Stuart Solzberg), and artist Cynthia Ona Innis. INTERVIEWS WITH Chris Kraus, Matthea Harvey, Rebecca Brown, Joan Fiset, Elizabeth Rollins, Brian Kiteley, Peter Markus, and Cynthia Ona Innis. & A LOOK AT Clear Cut Press: an interview with co-founder Matthew Stadler, and excerpts by Clear Cut authors Danielle Dutton, Robert Gl=FCck, and Lisa Robertson. ALSO, TARPAULIN SKY PRESS is pleased to announce the release of Andrew Michael Roberts' chapbook, _Give Up_, prose poems gathered together as if trying collectively to defy the book's title in their persistent search=97at times frantic, na=EFve, misdirected=97for what's been forsaken or lost or given foolishly away and = by now is likely out of reach. 5.5" x 7", pamphlet sewn, 32 pages. http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Roberts/index.html CURRENT AND FORTHCOMING TITLES: http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/index.html Jenny Boully, _[one love affair]*_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. April, 2006 Danielle Dutton, _Attempts at a Life_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. Forthcoming, March 2007 Sandy Florian, _32 Pedals and 47 Stops_ Chapbook. Forthcoming, Winter/Spring 2007 Joyelle McSweeney, _Nylund, The Sarcographer_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. Forthcoming, Fall 2007 Andrew Michael Roberts, _Give Up_ Chapbook. December, 2006 Chad Sweeney, _A Mirror to Shatter the Hammer_ Chapbook. October, 2006 Max Winter, _The Pictures_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. Forthcoming, February 2007 SUBMISSIONS TO THE JOURNAL & PRESS http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/guidelines.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Subject: TARPAULIN SKY>>> New Books, New Issue>>>Saterstrom, Harvey, Sikelianos, Ramke, Hunt, Brown, Fiset, Rollins, Markus, et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT We are pleased to announce the release of TARPAULIN SKY V4n2 Guest-edited by Selah Saterstrom http://www.tarpaulinsky.com NEW WORK BY Matthea Harvey, Eleni Sikelianos, Bin Ramke, Laird Hunt, Rebecca Brown, Joan Fiset, Elizabeth Rollins, Peter Markus, Brian Kiteley, Jindrich Styrsky, Tama Baldwin & Noah Saterstrom, Leisure Projects (Meredith Carruthers & Susannah Wesley), Bushwick Farms (Tara Cuthbert & Stuart Solzberg), and artist Cynthia Ona Innis. INTERVIEWS WITH Chris Kraus, Matthea Harvey, Rebecca Brown, Joan Fiset, Elizabeth Rollins, Brian Kiteley, Peter Markus, and Cynthia Ona Innis. & A LOOK AT Clear Cut Press: an interview with co-founder Matthew Stadler, and excerpts by Clear Cut authors Danielle Dutton, Robert Glück, and Lisa Robertson. ALSO, TARPAULIN SKY PRESS is pleased to announce the release of Andrew Michael Roberts' chapbook, _Give Up_, prose poems gathered together as if trying collectively to defy the book's title in their persistent search—at times frantic, naïve, misdirected—for what's been forsaken or lost or given foolishly away and by now is likely out of reach. 5.5" x 7", pamphlet sewn, 32 pages. http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Roberts/index.html CURRENT AND FORTHCOMING TITLES: http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/index.html Jenny Boully, _[one love affair]*_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. April, 2006 Danielle Dutton, _Attempts at a Life_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. Forthcoming, March 2007 Sandy Florian, _32 Pedals and 47 Stops_ Chapbook. Forthcoming, Winter/Spring 2007 Joyelle McSweeney, _Nylund, The Sarcographer_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. Forthcoming, Fall 2007 Andrew Michael Roberts, _Give Up_ Chapbook. December, 2006 Chad Sweeney, _A Mirror to Shatter the Hammer_ Chapbook. October, 2006 Max Winter, _The Pictures_ Perfectbound & handbound editions. Forthcoming, February 2007 SUBMISSIONS TO THE JOURNAL & PRESS http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/guidelines.html *****************We don't want to send you emails that you don't want to receive. If you received this email in error, or if you wish to be removed from this list for any reason, just reply with "remove" in the subject line. We apologize for any inconvenience.********************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:01:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #10: Draw Near Featuring: Joel Felix Arielle Greenberg A D Jameson Mike Newirth Ed Roberson Fred Sasaki Tony Trigilio Michelle Tupko Lina R. Vitkauska Leila Wilson 7pm Saturday, December 9th suggested donation $3 at LOCUS 2114 W. Grand, corner of Grand & Hoyne -- Chicago, IL (enter via the alley behind the building at Hoyne) new home of the SpareRoom http://www.spareroomchicago.org Draw Near features ten Chicago writers simultaneously reading their work to mini-audiences. Each time new listeners sit down, these intimate readings will begin again. Local fiction writer A D Jameson is a guest curator for this special Red Rover event. JOEL FELIX lives in Chicago where he edits and publishes the journal LVNG with Peter and Michael O'Leary. He is the author of Catch & Release, a chapbook published by the Chicago Poetry Project. His most recent poems can be found in the Chicago Review. Joel teaches at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. http://www.floodeditions.com/lvng/index.html. ARIELLE GREENBERG is the author of My Kafka Century (Action Books, 2005) and Given (Verse, 2002) and the chapbook Farther Down: Songs from the Allergy Trials (New Michigan, 2003). Her poems have been included the 2004 and 2005 editions of Best American Poetry and a number of other anthologies, including Legitimate Dangers (Sarabande, 2006). She is the poetry editor for the journal Black Clock and a founder and co-editor of the journal Court Green. She is an Assistant Professor in the poetry program at Columbia College Chicago and lives in Evanston, IL with her family. A D JAMESON's stories have appeared in elimae, THE2NDHAND, Lamination Colony, the Mississippi Review, and the Denver Quarterly (forthcoming). He has also directed music videos for the Kill Rock Stars bands Xiu Xiu and Mecca Normal. He lives in Chicago. MIKE NEWIRTH resides in a 100 year old coach house in Humboldt Park and teaches creative writing at the University of Illinois at Chicago. His writing received a Pushcart Prize and a Transatlantic Review award, and appears in numerous anthologies and publications including Time Out Chicago and Open City. ED ROBERSON is the author of the newly released book of poems, City Eclogue, 2006; Atmosphere Conditions, winner 2000 National Poetry Award series; Voices Cast Out to Talk Us In, winner of the 1994 Iowa Poetry Prize; as well as earlier books including When Thy King Is a Boy; Etai- Eken; and Lucid Interval as Integral Music. A recipient of many other awards, Roberson has recently become a resident of Chicago's Bronzeville. http://www.epc.buffalo.edu/authors/roberson/ FRED SASAKI is the assistant editor of Poetry and an editor-at-large for Stop Smiling. He has written naughty stories and etcetera for MAKE, Newcity, and Venus Zine, among others. He founded and organizes the Printers' Ball, an annual celebration of literature in Chicago. TONY TRIGILIO is the author of the poetry collection, The Lama's English Lessons (Three Candles Press, 2006). His poems have appeared in numerous publications, including recent work in Black Clock, Denver Quarterly, DIAGRAM, Hotel Amerika, La Petite Zine, and New Orleans Review. His poems have been anthologized recently in Digerati: 20 Contemporary Poets in the Virtual World (Three Candles) and America Zen (Bottom Dog Press). He teaches at Columbia College Chicago, where he also serves as Director of Creative Writing--Poetry and co-edits the poetry magazine Court Green. MICHELLE TUPKO is a sculptor, performance artist and writer. She recently participated in Art 44/46 in Lakeview, and in the 1st International Conference on Performance Art Theory in Tijuana, Mexico. She is currently writing a play about Kafka. LINA R. VITKAUSKAS has her M.A. in Creative Writing from Wright State University (2000). She is the Co-editor of the online literary/visual arts magazine, milk, www.milkmag.org. Her publications include: THE RANGE OF YOUR AMAZING NOTHING (Ravenna Press, 2007), Failed Star Spawns Planet/Star (dancing girl press, 2006), The City Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century (Cracked Slab Books, 2006), Paper Tiger (Australia), Van Gogh's Ear (Paris), The Prague Literary Review, and The Chicago Review. She has read at: Quimby's, Woman Made Gallery, Woodland Pattern, DvA Gallery, Around The Coyote Arts Festival, and Myopic Books Poetry Series. LEILA WILSON teaches at the School of the Art Institute and serves as an editor at Chicago Review. Her poems have appeared or are forthcoming in American Letters & Commentary, Denver Quarterly, Hayden's Ferry Review, Court Green, Delmar, Diagram, LVNG, and The Canary. Red Rover Series is curated bi-monthly by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin Got ideas for reading instructions & experiments? Email us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com Coming in February Experiment #11: Forth Sound Back with Daniel Godston ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:54:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: TARPAULIN SKY>>> New Books, New Issue>>>Saterstrom, Harvey, Sikelianos, Ramke, Hunt, Brown, Fiset, Rollins, Markus, et al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit submit? poems ? how many? attachments? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:47:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: NEW BOOK: The Complete Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear list my new book the final nite has been reviewed thankfully favorably in many places the latest is the great ny free newspaper the brooklyn rail nov issue here's the catch however the poems are essentially about a jazz musician actually written over a period of 29 yrs while listening to him play therer fore they stuck the review in the music section instead of the poetry section go figure enjoy it if you can find it sd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 08:52:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Poetry Blogs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Here is my tribute to Bill Lavender, poet and Professor at UNO - University of New Olreans, and to Poetry Blogs: http://lowres.uno.edu/classes/cyberlit/papers/ballardini/opening.html Enjoy! Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:08:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: TARPAULIN SKY>>> New Books, New Issue>>>Saterstrom, Harvey, Sikelianos, Ramk In-Reply-To: <20061202.011658.-397257.8.skyplums@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed steve at the bottom of the page Tarpaulin Sky sent to which you refer-- is the address/link to push key and enter into the submissions information for the journal notice a lot of times when a journal or a person announces re a new issue etc you ask right away re the submission info etc-- but is usually right there on the page-- the address to go to find out-- usually by clicking on their web site, as with the Tarpaulin Sky announcement, where all this info is provided-- just thought wd point it out to save you time & anxiety-- and feeling like chicken with head cut off-- as chuang tzu says "look under your feet" al my best to you-- onwo/ards !! david-bc >From: Steve Dalachinsky >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: TARPAULIN SKY>>> New Books, New Issue>>>Saterstrom, Harvey, >Sikelianos, Ramke, Hunt, Brown, Fiset, Rollins, Markus, et al >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:54:06 -0500 > >submit? > >poems ? > >how many? > >attachments? _________________________________________________________________ View Athlete’s Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 08:45:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Tony Lopez interview at The Argotist Online Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu Tony Lopez interview at The Argotist Online: http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Lopez%20interview.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 11:35:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Slaughter, William" Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New and On View Mudlark Poster No. 40 (2006) David Alpaugh | Summer Job David Alpaugh's second collection of poetry will be published by Alehouse Press in 2007. His first collection, Counterpoint, won the Nicholas Roerich Poetry prize from Story Line Press and his chapbooks have been published by Coracle Books and Pudding House. His essay "The Professionalization of Poetry" was published by Poets & Writers Magazine in 2003 and is available online at Houston Poetry Review. He has taught writing at the University of California Berkeley Extension and edits the Small Poetry Press Select Poets Series. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: "Jewish Buddhist Pantheist" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I could swear I remember reading Allen Ginsberg describing himself somewhere as a "Jewish Buddhist Pantheist." If anyone recalls where this phrase might have turned up I will be ever so grateful.you can backchannel me at dkane@panix.com. All best, --daniel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 13:24:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: urgent query on Stein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and relay any responses thanx ! --mp ^^^^^^^^ here is the multi part query; to any Stein fans & scholars i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry, i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make up for lost time. 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text that has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in no way crucial) 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very helpful. many thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:36:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <4571C4D6.8070801@worldnet.att.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" Michael le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9crit=A0: > a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent > deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and relay > any responses >=20 > thanx ! >=20 > --mp >=20 >=20 > ^^^^^^^^ >=20 >=20 >=20 > here is the multi part query; >=20 > to any Stein fans & scholars >=20 > i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry, > i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make > up for lost time. >=20 > 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text that > has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last > 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing > the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in > no way crucial) >=20 > 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very > helpful. >=20 > many thanks > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:13:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <4571C4D6.8070801@worldnet.att.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The most viable recent work on the subject of Stein texts has been published by Ulla Dydo. I don't recall the titile offhand. CM On Dec 2, 2006, at 1:24 PM, Mark Prejsnar wrote: a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and relay any responses thanx ! --mp ^^^^^^^^ here is the multi part query; to any Stein fans & scholars i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry, i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make up for lost time. 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text that has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in no way crucial) 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very helpful. many thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 14:47:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude Stein:= =20 The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different=20 versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. Charles At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would >immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >Michael > > >le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9crit : > > > a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent > > deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and relay > > any responses > > > > thanx ! > > > > --mp > > > > > > ^^^^^^^^ > > > > > > > > here is the multi part query; > > > > to any Stein fans & scholars > > > > i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry, > > i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make > > up for lost time. > > > > 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text that > > has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last > > 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing > > the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in > > no way crucial) > > > > 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very > > helpful. > > > > many thanks > >=20 >= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > --------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus= mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:07:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20061202143748.02d3f440@mail.theriver.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, she writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it very readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I remember right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a painter working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh, how time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger's palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in town! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude Stei= n: > The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different > versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. >=20 > Charles >=20 > At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would >> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >> Michael >>=20 >>=20 >> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9crit : >>=20 >>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent >>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and rela= y >>> any responses >>>=20 >>> thanx ! >>>=20 >>> --mp >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ^^^^^^^^ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> here is the multi part query; >>>=20 >>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>>=20 >>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry= , >>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make >>> up for lost time. >>>=20 >>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text tha= t >>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last >>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing >>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in >>> no way crucial) >>>=20 >>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very >>> helpful. >>>=20 >>> many thanks >>>=20 >>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -->> - >>> --------- >>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mai= l. >>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 > charles alexander / chax press >=20 > fold the book inside the book keep it open always > read from the inside out speak then=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 00:30:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Stephen's right, Mark. Hejinian is great reading. Let me add the chapter "Gertrude Stein's Differential Syntax" of Marjorie Perloff's 21st-Century Modernism, Blackwell, 2002 ; Charles Bernstein's "Professing Stein / Stein Professing" in his A Poetics, Harvard UP 1992. And, speaking of Bernstein, although the following is not a theoretical piece, have a go at the delectable "Gertrude and Ludwig's Bogus Adventure", from My Way, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1999. But, back to criticism and textual studies. In the same volume by Bernstein (My Way), you'll find the chapter on "Stein's Identity". Chapter 4 of Bob Perelman's The Trouble With Genius: Reading Pound, Joyce, Stein and Zukofsky (Univ. of Calif. Press, 1994) is worth reading too... That's all I have in mind for the moment. Michael le 3/12/06 0:07, Stephen Vincent =E0 steph484@PACBELL.NET a =E9crit=A0: > In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, she > writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it ver= y > readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I remember > right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a painter > working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! >=20 > A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh, how > time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger's > palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in town= ! >=20 > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude Ste= in: >> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different >> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. >>=20 >> Charles >>=20 >> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would >>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >>> Michael >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9crit : >>>=20 >>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent >>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and rel= ay >>>> any responses >>>>=20 >>>> thanx ! >>>>=20 >>>> --mp >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> ^^^^^^^^ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> here is the multi part query; >>>>=20 >>>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>>>=20 >>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurr= y, >>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to mak= e >>>> up for lost time. >>>>=20 >>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text th= at >>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last >>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussin= g >>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in >>>> no way crucial) >>>>=20 >>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very >>>> helpful. >>>>=20 >>>> many thanks >>>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -->> > > - >>>> --------- >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus ma= il. >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >> charles alexander / chax press >>=20 >> fold the book inside the book keep it open always >> read from the inside out speak then > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:51:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and "Reading Language, Reading Gertrude Stein," by Bruce Andrews, which is= =20 up on ubuweb at http://www.ubu.com/papers/andrews_stein.html and, as I recall, writings including work on Stein by bpNichol in the=20 collection of his essays, Meanwhile, edited by Roy Miki. Charles At 04:30 PM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >Stephen's right, Mark. Hejinian is great reading. >Let me add the chapter "Gertrude Stein's Differential Syntax" of Marjorie >Perloff's 21st-Century Modernism, Blackwell, 2002 ; Charles Bernstein's >"Professing Stein / Stein Professing" in his A Poetics, Harvard UP 1992. >And, speaking of Bernstein, although the following is not a theoretical >piece, have a go at the delectable "Gertrude and Ludwig's Bogus Adventure", >from My Way, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1999. But, back to criticism and >textual studies. In the same volume by Bernstein (My Way), you'll find the >chapter on "Stein's Identity". Chapter 4 of Bob Perelman's The Trouble With >Genius: Reading Pound, Joyce, Stein and Zukofsky (Univ. of Calif. Press, >1994) is worth reading too... >That's all I have in mind for the moment. >Michael > >le 3/12/06 0:07, Stephen Vincent =E0 steph484@PACBELL.NET a =E9crit : > > > In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, she > > writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it= very > > readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I remember > > right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a= painter > > working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! > > > > A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh,= how > > time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger's > > palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in= town! > > > > Stephen V > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > > >> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude=20 > Stein: > >> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different > >> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. > >> > >> Charles > >> > >> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: > >>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would > >>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a= =E9crit : > >>> > >>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent > >>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and= relay > >>>> any responses > >>>> > >>>> thanx ! > >>>> > >>>> --mp > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ^^^^^^^^ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> here is the multi part query; > >>>> > >>>> to any Stein fans & scholars > >>>> > >>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a= hurry, > >>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to= make > >>>> up for lost time. > >>>> > >>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text= that > >>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last > >>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies= discussing > >>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is= in > >>>> no way crucial) > >>>> > >>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very > >>>> helpful. > >>>> > >>>> many thanks > >>>> > >>> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -->> > > > > - > >>>> --------- > >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus= =20 > mail. > >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> charles alexander / chax press > >> > >> fold the book inside the book keep it open always > >> read from the inside out speak then > >=20 >= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > --------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus= mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:30:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Angelou account of rape stirs objections - parents want controversial book out of class In-Reply-To: <001001c710d1$67b2f860$6600a8c0@REN> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found that when I was teaching English some parents just didn't want to have certain conversations with their children, so they didn't want certain things brought up in the classroom. Kinda scary, to me. But, sometimes, the parents need the education just as well as their children. On Nov 25, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Ren Powell wrote: > "what's stupid is for parents to think that any of the stuff that goes > on in > that book is news to a > sixteen year old high school sophomore.. . . " > > And if it's not old news to their sixteen-year-old then they sure need > to > get that kid an education! > > ______ > Ren Powell > post@renpowell.com > www.sidesteppingreal.blogspot.com > www.icorn.org > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Lulu titlescorer In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is very cool! A title that I've been tossing around has only a 26.3% chance if taken figuratively, but a 35.9% chance if taken literally. Weird. I wouldn't imagine anyone to take it literally. On Nov 26, 2006, at 11:13 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > (If you're concerned about becoming a bestseller you may want to > evaluate the title of your new book...) > > > The title Tender Buttons has a 26.3% chance of being a bestselling > title! > > The title Maximus Poems has a 45.6% chance of being a bestselling > title! > > The title Knowledge Swirling Man Tells Slow Stories has a 22.9% chance > of being a bestselling title! > > > > http://www.lulu.com/titlescorer/index.php > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 01:04:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: you've never seen the end of you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed you've never seen the end of you fast makes sewn up men faster has something to do with the machine i don't expect the machine to eat itself makes the machine do contrary things and the cams churn the body your body is all greasy sewn economies and transriparians groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips becoming a speed-blur speed-bump you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel soaked constitutions of sewn economies fast makes sewn up women makes sewn up men faster has something to do with the machine bodies eat bodies seeped through cams makes the machine fumble you and the cams churn the body your body is all greasy groped and comes around again mumbly-pegged the lips and lips becoming a speed-blur speed-bump you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes speed the thing up fast makes sewn up men faster has something to do with the machine cams and syzygies veered through sewn economies makes the machine fumble you and the cams churn the body your body is all greasy groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes floating in oil legs spread arms spread some unknown liquid seeping and machines stitched from machines liquids stitched from liquids fast makes sewn up women makes sewn up men faster has something to do with the machine sewn and mumbled lips seized burst caves your body is all greasy sewn economies and transriparians groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop becoming a speed-blur speed-bump you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes floating in oil legs spread arms spread some unknown liquid seeping liquids stitched from liquids fast faster has something to do with the machine gears and teeth sewn women makes the machine fumble you and the cams churn the body groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel some unknown liquid seeping fast faster has something to do with the machine teeth and geared sewn men makes the machine fumble you and the cams churn the body groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel some unknown liquid seeping speed the thing up fast makes sewn up women makes sewn up men faster has something to do with the machine joined sutured and quick bodies collapsed your body is all greasy greasy body dirty body skewed on your fumbled lever sewn economies and transriparians and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips becoming a speed-blur speed-bump on the way to death and constitution you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes fast has something to do with the machine faster in queues of flesh makes the machine do contrary things and the cams churn the body your body is all greasy sewn economies and transriparians and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips on the way to death and constitution you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes fast faster has something to do with the machine the digital splits analog moans anon makes the machine fumble you and the cams churn the body your body is all greasy sewn economies and transriparians groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips becoming a speed-blur speed-bump you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel speed the thing up fast makes sewn up women makes sewn up men has something to do with the machine syntactics protocols must be meaning somewhere makes the machine fumble you and the cams churn the body your body is all greasy sewn economies and transriparians groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips becoming a speed-blur speed-bump you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes some unknown liquid seeping and machines stitched from machines fast makes sewn up men faster has something to do with the machine justice of greased economies makes the machine do contrary things makes the machine fumble you your body is all greasy greasy body dirty body groped and comes around again and holes are where the bodies drop mumbly-pegged the lips and lips you've never seen the end of you you're stretched on the wheel incredible churning of the wheel greasy weaving through the spokes speed the thing up ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 01:21:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: Re :urgent query on Stein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i know ulla she' s somethin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 22:50:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <4571C4D6.8070801@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I imagine a million people have chimed in on this already, but "tender buttons" is the book to do the work on, there have only been a few editions of that since the original self published version, but it's a great piece of work and I know a bunch of the Language Poets have written pretty extensively about it, and there's an extended bit of writing on it in either Wittgenstein's Ladder or 21st Century Modernism by Marjorie Perloff. Mark Prejsnar wrote: > a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent > deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and relay > any responses > > thanx ! > > --mp > > > ^^^^^^^^ > > > > here is the multi part query; > > to any Stein fans & scholars > > i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry, > i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make > up for lost time. > > 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text that > has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last > 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing > the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in > no way crucial) > > 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very > helpful. > > many thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 23:20:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <457273BC.4050403@myuw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow----I guess Stein is a one-hit wonder after all (in addition to being a language poet).... On Dec 2, 2006, at 10:50 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I imagine a million people have chimed in on this already, but > "tender buttons" is the book to do the work on, there have only > been a few editions of that since the original self published > version, but it's a great piece of work and I know a bunch of the > Language Poets have written pretty extensively about it, and > there's an extended bit of writing on it in either Wittgenstein's > Ladder or 21st Century Modernism by Marjorie Perloff. > > Mark Prejsnar wrote: >> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a >> stringent deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this >> request, and relay any responses >> thanx ! >> --mp >> ^^^^^^^^ >> here is the multi part query; >> to any Stein fans & scholars >> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a >> hurry, i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now >> need to make up for lost time. >> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein >> text that has received a significant amount of scholarly attention >> in the last 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual >> studies discussing the work's publication history or variant >> versions etc (but this is in no way crucial) >> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be >> very helpful. >> many thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 10:34:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <4FE53D7D-07EF-44BC-9F1F-F3695F898B01@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Apart from the excellent Library of America Edition of Stein's Works, the Penguin Modcern Classic compendium of Writings and Lectures 1909-45 edited by Patricia Meyerowitz can certainly still be found (my reprint is dated 1984). It contains Tender Buttons. Around Tender Buttons, Mark, your friend= , may want to look at "The Gradual Making of 'The Making of Americans'", "Portraits and Repetition" and "Poetry and Grammar". All in Look At Me And Here I Am Michael le 3/12/06 8:20, Chris Stroffolino =E0 cstroffo@EARTHLINK.NET a =E9crit=A0: > Wow----I guess Stein is a one-hit wonder after all (in addition to > being a language poet).... >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Dec 2, 2006, at 10:50 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: >=20 >> I imagine a million people have chimed in on this already, but >> "tender buttons" is the book to do the work on, there have only >> been a few editions of that since the original self published >> version, but it's a great piece of work and I know a bunch of the >> Language Poets have written pretty extensively about it, and >> there's an extended bit of writing on it in either Wittgenstein's >> Ladder or 21st Century Modernism by Marjorie Perloff. >>=20 >> Mark Prejsnar wrote: >>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a >>> stringent deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this >>> request, and relay any responses >>> thanx ! >>> --mp >>> ^^^^^^^^ >>> here is the multi part query; >>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a >>> hurry, i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now >>> need to make up for lost time. >>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein >>> text that has received a significant amount of scholarly attention >>> in the last 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual >>> studies discussing the work's publication history or variant >>> versions etc (but this is in no way crucial) >>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be >>> very helpful. >>> many thanks > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:44:07 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: MLA conference Philly: alternative poetry events? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, now that the estimable Ms. Perloff is President of the MLA, poetry is back in the academic spotlight...I'm wondering, though, if the usual annual alterna-reading/open mic will be happening? Anybody have the details? Email me. Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 08:24:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Nate Mackey Email In-Reply-To: <20061203.012821.-394215.3.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have Mr Mackey's email? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:27:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Re: MLA conference Philly: alternative poetry events? In-Reply-To: <20061203074407.ALT50013@mirapoint.jcu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes. I was wondering the same thing. As a third of Lit City, I was the primary organizer of those readings when the MLA was held in New Orleans in 2001, and I would love to read in Philly this year. If you could please forward me information, as well, I would appreciate it. Thanks, Tod ______________________ Michael Tod Edgerton English Department 124 Library Providence College 549 River Avenue Providence, RI 02918-0001 medgerto@providence.edu Philip Metres wrote: Folks, now that the estimable Ms. Perloff is President of the MLA, poetry is back in the academic spotlight...I'm wondering, though, if the usual annual alterna-reading/open mic will be happening? Anybody have the details? Email me. Philip Metres Assistant Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 09:55:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Ed Roberson on Chicagopostmodernpoetry.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends of Chicagopostmodernpoetry.com: As our Christmas gift to you all we offer a new Poetic Profile of new to Chicago poet Ed Roberson and it was our honor To profile him. Check back in a few weeks for the January-Feb and March calendar. Ray Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:42:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20061202143748.02d3f440@mail.theriver.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable she is speaking today at 2 at the OUt of the BLue Gallery on Prospect St in Cambridge and students from the NEng Conservatory of Music are improvising music and stein-style poems. yale G. Stein is wonderful incl the intro. On 12/2/06 4:47 PM, "charles alexander" wrote: > And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude Stei= n: > The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different > versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. >=20 > Charles >=20 > At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would >> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >> Michael >>=20 >>=20 >> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9crit : >>=20 >>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent >>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and rela= y >>> any responses >>>=20 >>> thanx ! >>>=20 >>> --mp >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ^^^^^^^^ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> here is the multi part query; >>>=20 >>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>>=20 >>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hurry= , >>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to make >>> up for lost time. >>>=20 >>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text tha= t >>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last >>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussing >>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in >>> no way crucial) >>>=20 >>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very >>> helpful. >>>=20 >>> many thanks >>>=20 >>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -->> - >>> --------- >>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mai= l. >>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 > charles alexander / chax press >=20 > fold the book inside the book keep it open always > read from the inside out speak then=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:43:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Steve Swallow & Robert Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 For those of you who don't see the New York Times, this morning's issue carries a short notice of a new CD from Steve Swallow that continues his earlier work with the poetry of Robert Creeley -- The new one includes what must be nearly the last recordings of Creeley's own reading voice -- and the music is composed out of Creeley's own rhythms -- here's a link to the Amazon description of the CD: http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B000J104M4/ref=pd_rvi_gw_3/103-9801738-4777434 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: the Stein inquiry: a clarification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanx very much to everyone who has responded to my inquiry re Stein ! my friend has found many of the comments helpful, but has written me to clarify ... i believe that he and i are jointly responsible for the initial post not being sufficiently clear; he's in graduate school and his assignment for this paper is primarily about textual-editing/textual-history issues; so when he wrote: " of particular interest are any textual studies discussing the work's publication history or variant versions etc" he actually should have stressed that part of things even more than he did; ... and: ignore the comment which comes after ("but this is not particularly crucial"); i believe he meant that to apply to "variant versions," not the rest of the preceding sentence ! so while he has read people's responses with interest, and is grateful, he really is trying to find not so much insightful criticism on Stein as a poet/writer, as textual scholarship, stuff relating to the establishment of Stein's texts ....... Thanx again !! mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:27:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Tragic news -- kari edwards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'm not sure I'm the best person to relay such terrible news, as we weren't intimate friends, but as it affects our list community generally: I've just learned that our friend and correspondent for lo these many years, kari edwards, passed away this weekend from a cardiac arrest. Very sorry to be the bearer of such tidings, and extremely sad -- Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:32:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: MLA conference Philly: alternative poetry events? In-Reply-To: <20061203152754.67164.qmail@web54208.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i made an attempt to organize one from long distance and encountered some trouble working around the many events DR. perloff (philip, i love you, and i'm sure you were being sly, but women are so endlessly demoted in these things) has scheduled. and i could not discover when the usual alphabet-soup reading would be, but i took a wild guess given an opening on the schedule and figgered the 28th. (organizers did not get back to me on this so don't take that to the bank.) based on this logic, the only time i could find that would not be terribly intrusive was the 27th at 7:00, but my concern was that too many would not yet be in town. so i did not move forward with trying to find a space. perhaps someone local could pitch in....? signed, dr. kass fleisher (go ahead and yell at me about the "dr." thing...i've eaten a lot of that dish over the years, i can take it...) >Yes. I was wondering the same thing. As a third of Lit City, I was >the primary organizer of those readings when the MLA was held in New >Orleans in 2001, and I would love to read in Philly this year. If >you could please forward me information, as well, I would appreciate >it. > > Thanks, > > Tod > ______________________ > Michael Tod Edgerton > English Department > 124 Library > Providence College > 549 River Avenue > Providence, RI 02918-0001 > medgerto@providence.edu > >Philip Metres wrote: Folks, > >now that the estimable Ms. Perloff is President of the MLA, poetry >is back in the academic spotlight...I'm wondering, though, if the >usual annual alterna-reading/open mic will be happening? Anybody >have the details? > >Email me. > >Philip Metres >Assistant Professor >Department of English >John Carroll University >20700 N. Park Blvd >University Heights, OH 44118 >phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) >fax: (216) 397-1723 >http://www.philipmetres.com > > > >"There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" > - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge > >--------------------------------- >Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:33:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Kizershot Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kari has been a good friend to me and to many, a brave person, and an amazing innovative writer. If anyone knows where her partner Fran is now or how to contact, please back channel . Julie Kizershot jkizershot@earthlink.net On Dec 3, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Joe Amato wrote: > I'm not sure I'm the best person to relay such terrible news, as we > weren't intimate friends, but as it affects our list community > generally: > > I've just learned that our friend and correspondent for lo these > many years, kari edwards, passed away this weekend from a cardiac > arrest. > > Very sorry to be the bearer of such tidings, and extremely sad -- > > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 10:34:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deb King Subject: mark(s) release 7.03 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark(s) online quarterly for the arts announcing the release of mark(s) 7.03, featuring: Abigail Child Kass Fleisher Mary Fortuna Marina Gutierrez Holly Hughes Tracie Morris Guest literary editor: Carla Harryman Please enjoy the final quarterly release of mark(s). We will continue as a semiannual publication. Regards. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 10:35:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deb King Subject: mark(s) release 7.03 -url In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mark(s) online quarterly for the arts http://www.markszine.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:42:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: kari Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm really, really upset to hear this...is it definitely true? I've just heard the same thing this morning and am desperately trying to confirm the story... Tim Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:33:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> From: Julie Kizershot <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed kari has been a good friend to me and to many, a brave person, and an amazing innovative writer. If anyone knows where her partner Fran is now or how to contact, please back channel . Julie Kizershot [log in to unmask] On Dec 3, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Joe Amato wrote: > I'm not sure I'm the best person to relay such terrible news, as we > weren't intimate friends, but as it affects our list community > generally: > > I've just learned that our friend and correspondent for lo these > many years, kari edwards, passed away this weekend from a cardiac > arrest. > > Very sorry to be the bearer of such tidings, and extremely sad -- > > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:56:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amanda Earl Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed i'm only a lurker on the list but i have read some of kari's posts here on occasion as well as some of her writing and am very very sorry to hear of her death. my condolences to all of you who were close to her. amanda (in ottawa, canada) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:07:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is very sad: where was she when she died? her activism and poetry was v inspiring. i only met her once, at the San Francisco Bay Area Poetry Marathon, thanks to Joseph Lease and Donna de la Perriere for organizing it. At 11:33 AM -0700 12/3/06, Julie Kizershot wrote: >kari has been a good friend to me and to many, a brave person, and >an amazing innovative writer. > >If anyone knows where her partner Fran is now or how to contact, >please back channel . > >Julie Kizershot >jkizershot@earthlink.net > > > >On Dec 3, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Joe Amato wrote: > >>I'm not sure I'm the best person to relay such terrible news, as we >>weren't intimate friends, but as it affects our list community >>generally: >> >>I've just learned that our friend and correspondent for lo these >>many years, kari edwards, passed away this weekend from a cardiac >>arrest. >> >>Very sorry to be the bearer of such tidings, and extremely sad -- >> >>Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:00:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: the Stein inquiry: a clarification In-Reply-To: <45731366.7000704@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The key work relating to this issue is Ulla Dydo's book. Murat On 12/3/06, Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > Thanx very much to everyone who has responded to my inquiry re Stein ! > my friend has found many of the comments helpful, but has written me to > clarify ... i believe that he and i are jointly responsible for the > initial post not being sufficiently clear; he's in graduate school and > his assignment for this paper is primarily about > textual-editing/textual-history issues; so when he wrote: > > " of particular interest are any textual studies discussing > the work's publication history or variant versions etc" > > he actually should have stressed that part of things even more than he > did; ... and: ignore the comment which comes after ("but this is not > particularly crucial"); i believe he meant that to apply to "variant > versions," not the rest of the preceding sentence ! so while he has > read people's responses with interest, and is grateful, he really is > trying to find not so much insightful criticism on Stein as a > poet/writer, as textual scholarship, stuff relating to the > establishment of Stein's texts ....... > > Thanx again !! > > > mark > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 13:03:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if you step over the line once you get smacked you get canned or sometimes you just find yourself over the line" from "Trouble No More" Beard of Bees Press is pleased to announce the publication of an excerpt from Mark Salerno's up-coming book-length poem _Odalisque_ due out next year from Salt Publishing. http://www.beardofbees.com/salerno.html Look out for chapbooks in up-coming months by Joel Chace, Sean Singer, and more. Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:06:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20061203135329.035b5e18@storm.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is deafening news received far too soon. My condolences to all who knew her and her work. --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:21:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: <718861.34504.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- i'd be interested to hear more about her work -- i did not know her -- so sorry to hear of her death -- -- death -- may it be a gateway, not an end -- -- heidi On 12/3/06, amy king wrote: > > This is deafening news received far too soon. My condolences to all who > knew her and her work. > > > --------------------------------- > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:24:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Kari was absolutely brilliant and her work had an edge to it that was absolutely unique. This is a terrible loss; even without the quality of her writing, it is terrible... This is a bad season for death and illness; we're dealing with some family here as well. love to everyone, Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:09:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Pelton & Roy at SPT this Fri 12/8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic is pleased to present a reading by Ted Pelton & Camille Roy Friday, December 8, 2006 at 7:30 PM Ted Pelton is the author of three books, most recently the novel Malcolm and Jack (Spuyten Duyvil, 2006), which Cris Mazza says “reminds us of the quagmire that is history. Fact and fiction can't be easily boxed; everything is true even as everything isn't. Don't even bother trying to pinch yourself every so often while reading to see if it’s ‘real.’ Pelton’s book does the pinching for you.” Pelton is the publisher of Starcherone Books and teaches at Medaille College of Buffalo. Camille Roy is a writer and performer of plays, poetry, and fiction. Her two most recent books are Cheap Speech, a play, from Leroy, and Craquer, from 2nd Story Books (both 2002). Her book Swarm (two novellas) was published by San Francisco's Black Star Series with funding from the San Francisco Arts Commission. She is a founding editor of the online journal Narrativity. Girlfriends magazine says “Camille Roy is as brilliant and horny as William S. Burroughs with his consciousness way raised” and Robert Gluck calls hers “gorgeously perverse…starstruck langugage.” Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall, California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sina Queyras Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: <718861.34504.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is deafening indeed. I'm in shock. Please let us know any news. Sina > This is deafening news received far too soon. My condolences to all who > knew her and her work. > > > --------------------------------- > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > -- Sina Queyras Visiting Assistant Professor Department of English Woodside Cottage Haverford College 370 Lancaster Avenue Haverford, PA 19041-1392 (610) 896-1256 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:36:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes, I just spoke with Bob Gluck, who confirmed kari passed away yesterday. Sadness,yes, great sadness. Stephen V > I'm not sure I'm the best person to relay such terrible news, as we > weren't intimate friends, but as it affects our list community > generally: > > I've just learned that our friend and correspondent for lo these many > years, kari edwards, passed away this weekend from a cardiac arrest. > > Very sorry to be the bearer of such tidings, and extremely sad -- > > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:37:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topic of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy research into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as "with tender patience leading..." I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit of a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender Buttons much more exciting for me. Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too in understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into Cubist projects. but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about this... eireene On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, she > writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it ver= y > readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I remember > right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a painter > working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! > > A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh, how > time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger's > palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in town= ! > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude St= ein: > > The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different > > versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. > > > > Charles > > > > At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: > >> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would > >> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9c= rit : > >> > >>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent > >>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and re= lay > >>> any responses > >>> > >>> thanx ! > >>> > >>> --mp > >>> > >>> > >>> ^^^^^^^^ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> here is the multi part query; > >>> > >>> to any Stein fans & scholars > >>> > >>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hur= ry, > >>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to ma= ke > >>> up for lost time. > >>> > >>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text t= hat > >>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last > >>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussi= ng > >>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is i= n > >>> no way crucial) > >>> > >>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very > >>> helpful. > >>> > >>> many thanks > >>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---->> > - > >>> --------- > >>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus m= ail. > >>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > charles alexander / chax press > > > > fold the book inside the book keep it open always > > read from the inside out speak then > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:40:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...... (i'm speechless now...) i was just going to post something about adrienne shelley's murder, and now this... On Dec 3, 2006, at 10:33 AM, Julie Kizershot wrote: > kari has been a good friend to me and to many, a brave person, and > an amazing innovative writer. > > If anyone knows where her partner Fran is now or how to contact, > please back channel . > > Julie Kizershot > jkizershot@earthlink.net > > > > On Dec 3, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Joe Amato wrote: > >> I'm not sure I'm the best person to relay such terrible news, as >> we weren't intimate friends, but as it affects our list community >> generally: >> >> I've just learned that our friend and correspondent for lo these >> many years, kari edwards, passed away this weekend from a cardiac >> arrest. >> >> Very sorry to be the bearer of such tidings, and extremely sad -- >> >> Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:55:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Lunday Subject: Re: Eagle Scouts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Speaking up: a proud, artsy former Eagle Scout here... forced to it, though, by my military stepdad: I admit I would have quit otherwise. Gerald R. Ford machine-signed my certificate! I have another poet-friend who also holds the badge... and I will also add that knot-tying and poetry-writing have always seemed remarkably similar acts of imaginiation, to me... On 11/29/06, David Harrison Horton wrote: > > Hi all, > > Just offhand the question of the Boy Scout system came up. I made it to > Cub Scout and no further. Many of my successful "arty" friends are Eagle > Scouts. A high percentage in fact.Informal survey, how many of us went > through the Boy Scout system? How far did you get? > > I don't know the equivalents for Brownies/Girl Scouts, but would like to > be informed and get similar involvement feedback. > > Thanks in advance, > David Harrison Horton > unionherald.blogspot.com > _________________________________________________________________ > Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! > > http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=7adb59de-a857-45ba-81cc-685ee3e858fe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:55:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kass Fleisher Subject: kari Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" awful. this i got from another source, won't name it: >kari edwards died this afternoon [saturday] of cardiac arrest. She >had been struggling with symptoms (shortness of breath, etc.) over >three weeks and was hospitalized for pneumonia last week. Today she >went to the emergency room, and they could not revive her in time. I >will let you know of kari's memorial. Send prayers to her partner, >Fran Blau. I'm sorry. kass ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <578647560612031237l3b3ab54eibf505dfcf8bb78fb@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Eireene, I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the Stein-Whitehead connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. All I may do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close Olson-Whitehead connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and has been efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find evidence of Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you working on? I wish you could tell us some more. My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... Michael le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand =E0 eireene@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit=A0: > This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topic > of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy research > into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that > that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or > cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as > "with tender patience leading..." >=20 > I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit of > a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great > discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender > Buttons much more exciting for me. >=20 > Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too in > understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into > Cubist projects. >=20 > but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about this... >=20 > eireene >=20 > On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, she >> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it ve= ry >> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I remember >> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a painte= r >> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! >>=20 >> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh, ho= w >> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger's >> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in tow= n! >>=20 >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude St= ein: >>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different >>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. >>>=20 >>> Charles >>>=20 >>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would >>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >>>> Michael >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9crit = : >>>>=20 >>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent >>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and re= lay >>>>> any responses >>>>>=20 >>>>> thanx ! >>>>>=20 >>>>> --mp >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> ^^^^^^^^ >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> here is the multi part query; >>>>>=20 >>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>>>>=20 >>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a hur= ry, >>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to ma= ke >>>>> up for lost time. >>>>>=20 >>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text t= hat >>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last >>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies discussi= ng >>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is i= n >>>>> no way crucial) >>>>>=20 >>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very >>>>> helpful. >>>>>=20 >>>>> many thanks >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> >> >> - >>>>> --------- >>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus m= ail. >>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> charles alexander / chax press >>>=20 >>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always >>> read from the inside out speak then >>=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:00:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Machlin Subject: Shanxing Wang Wins AAWW Award Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear list: Shanxing Wang's first book Mad Science in Imperial City from Futurepoem =20= is being awarded the 2006 Asian American Literary Award for poetry - a =20= surprising choice of an experimental work of cross-genre literature by =20= a small press. I hope you will consider coming out to support him =20 tomorrow night at the ceremony at the Asia Society in NYC. Best, Dan ************************************************************************=20= ***************** The 9th Annual Asian American Literary Awards, Monday, December 4, 7pm at The Asia Society 725 Park Ave @ 70th St New York City Awards Presentation and Booksigning Reception $12 general, $10 members, students free with ID Mad Science in Imperial City by Shanxing Wang (Futurepoem books) Poetry Presented by Suji Kwock Kim Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation by Jeff Chang (Picador USA) Nonfiction Presented by Greg Tate Sightseeing by Rattawut Lapcharoensap (Grove Press) Fiction Presented by Brian Leung Special guest speaker Sudhir Venkatesh, "How I Learned to Love Being an American Born Confused Desi" The 2006 Winners: Live Announcement of the Members' Choice Award winner by Sugi =20 Ganeshananthan Finalists: A Thousand Years of Good Prayers by Yiyun Li (Random House) Fiction Real Karaoke People by Ed Bok Lee (New Rivers Press) Poetry Tetched: A Novel in Fractals by Thaddeus Rutkowski (Behler =20 Publications), Fiction Click below to read about the awards and an interview with executive =20 director Quang Bao. =A0(The Workshop is 15 years old not 20 -- all else is true = in =20 the article, except those things that are not.) http://www.gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?=20 newsid=3D17533122&BRD=3D2729&PAG=3D461&dept_id=3D568864&rfi=3D6 More info on Shanxing's book and Futurepoem at http://www.futurepoem.com Mad Science in Imperial City available from http://www.spdbooks.org= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:13:18 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Fulcrum 5 (2006) Still Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subscriptions to Fulcrum, including our brand-new Number Five, are now av= ailable via PayPal at http://fulcrumpoetry.com ! We still charge the same= unbeatably low price, although the journal's size has grown considerably= and is now at 544 pages. FULCRUM: an annual of poetry and aesthetics, Number Five, 2006, edited by= Philip Nikolayev and Katia Kapovich * 544 pp., perfectbound, exquisitely= designed, cheaply priced * SPECIAL FEATURES: "Poets and Philosophers"; "= Poetry and Harvard in the 1920s" * POETRY BY Stephen Sturgeon, Ben Mazer,= Jeet Thayil, Vivek Narayanan, Glyn Maxwell, Joe Green, Landis Everson, D= an Sofaer, Billy Collins, John Tranter, Andrea Zanzotto, Don Share, Sean = O Riordain, Greg Delanty, Michael Palmer, Kit Robinson, Brian Henry, Pam = Brown, David Lehman, John Hennessy, Charles Bernstein, Charles Baudelaire= , Guillaume Apollinaire, Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Arthur Rimbaud, X.J.= Kennedy, John Crowe Ransom, Alex To, Fiona Sampson, Fan Ogilvie, Richard= Fein, Joyelle McSweeney, Justin Marks, Gerard Malanga, Alexei Tsvetkov, = George Bilgere, John Wheelwright, Malcolm Cowley, R.P. Blackmur, Dudley F= itts... * ESSAYS BY Eliot Weinberger, Peter H. Hare, Simon Critchley, Mar= jorie Perloff, Lisa Goldfarb, Pierre Joris, Raymond Barfield... * ART BY = Esther Pullman, e.e. cummings * INTERVIEW: Andrea Zanzotto * ...AND MUCH,= MUCH MORE! [View the complete Table of Contents at http://fulcrumpoetry.= com ] A proper poetry journal should be run by proper poets, not by "well-inten= tioned" committees or genteel "lovers of poetry" along the lines of who=E2= =80=99s admitted to the social register and who is not. Nikolayev and Kap= ovich are smart, curious and up to the job. Keep your eye on Fulcrum. =E2=80=94August Kleinzahler One of the liveliest, most challenging poetry journals now on the market,= Fulcrum is notable for its non-sectarianism, its free-wheeling, wide-ran= ging presentation of different poetries, candid interviews, and unusual c= ritical prose. --Marjorie Perloff Fulcrum... where intelligence refuses to die! --Charles Bernstein http://fulcrumpoetry.com Though it maybe easier to subscribe online, traditional subscriptions by = check or money order are accepted. Go to the "Subscribe" tab our website = to see the current competitive subscription rates. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip Nikolayev and Katia Kapovich, Editors FULCRUM: AN ANNUAL OF POETRY AND AESTHETICS 334 Harvard Street, Suite D-2 Cambridge, MA 02139, USA http://fulcrumpoetry.com phone 617-864-7874 e-mail editor{AT}fulcrumpoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:20:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: <50325.151.197.229.76.1165175661.squirrel@151.197.229.76> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Yes, it's true about kari's death and here in the Bay Area we are all still in shock as I imagine her friends all over the country and elsewhere are as well. Fran Blau asked me to spread the word about, well, something you can do in kari's memory if you care to, and that's to make a donation to Cinema Paradiso, the international cinema in Auroville, the visionary community in southern India where kari and Fran had spent a happy year + together. Checks should be made out to: Auroville Maintenance Fund and sent to: Financial Services Town Hall Annex Auroville 605101 Tamil Nadu India Please note that it's to support "Cinema Paradiso" and that your gift is in memory of kari edwards. Thanks everyone. If anyone needs an update or whatever feel free to get in touch with me, Kevin K. >This is deafening indeed. I'm in shock. > >Please let us know any news. > >Sina > > >> This is deafening news received far too soon. My condolences to all who >> knew her and her work. >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. >> > > >-- >Sina Queyras >Visiting Assistant Professor >Department of English >Woodside Cottage >Haverford College >370 Lancaster Avenue >Haverford, PA 19041-1392 >(610) 896-1256 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:39:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed in the autobiography of alice b. toklas, whitehead is one of the three people that stein met and heard the bells that announced she was meeting a genius (so one imagines yes she read his work, too--he was ver ywell known in that time--his photo for example wd show up in vanity fair, etc--) it is interesting reading the responses to the query--i was thinking how the works cited for the much greater part are al those which related Stein with language poetry only, from that particular perspective-- as though there had been no work on her previously--though there is indeed quite a lot-- and from people writing from a great many perspectives, including many important views from artists working in other media who learmed from/worked with Stein's work and her in person--and this beginning very early in her career--(the large correspondance with sherwood anderson for example, of an early one--) i am well aware of Stein's great effect on language poetry, beginning with robert grenier, who was teaching the yale stein at franconia college ealry 1970s--but at same time seems like limiting the worship of a goddess to one sect among a great many--and work on her limited to that begun with just one persepctive's interpretation of the canon-- (thinking of this as humourous--so , please, not saying this to raise ire) then later on today on yahoo newspager saw a story that in kenya fundamentalist christian sects pushing very hard on govt that when museum reopens, its world famous and one of most important exhibitions of earliest skeletons of hominds and homo sapiens--instead of being promiently displayed, be removed and put away into back rooms--where only the intrepid wil follow after in the dimness to view them--that evolution is not fact, but only a theory-- i couldn't help laughing, as this seems the situation with gertrude stein here-- there is no evolution in work on her work, or with her work-- only a creation out of a vacuum--and all stein work begining from there--that moment, and done by the members of that sect born of the revelation of that moment--and their students, disciples, acolytes etc-- a great deal can be learned directly from stein--she is very clear in explaining her ideas--in her essays and compositions-- she lays her major concerns very straight forwardly----objects, landscapes, geographies, the swifter and swfiter pasage of things being seen as ugly to theirbeing seen as beaitufl and accpeted into daily mas production using their images, ideas--etc-- she also wrote a great deal about the influence of painting on her work--that is very interesting--and crucial in the development of her early writing-- again, from very ealryon stein was written abt a goo deal by other writers infouenced by her, influencing her, interested in her work and vice cersa--and a great deal can be found in their coreespondance and wirtings in this reagrd still of great interest and use-- as wel as great deal that has been written on the interrelatednessness of stein's early work s esp in relation to painting, the wys painters were changng language in painting, and ways of seeing things in space and how this relates with time, space-time -- which is vey intersting and different from what is often the case, as brion gysin told willaim s burroughs--that writing lags fifty years behind painting--if so, why then not be learning from painters, which is what stein was doing much of-- >From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 > >Eireene, >I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the Stein-Whitehead >connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. All I may >do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close Olson-Whitehead >connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and has been >efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find evidence of >Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you working on? I >wish you could tell us some more. >My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... >Michael > > >le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand à eireene@GMAIL.COM a écrit : > > > This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topic > > of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy research > > into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that > > that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or > > cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as > > "with tender patience leading..." > > > > I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit of > > a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great > > discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender > > Buttons much more exciting for me. > > > > Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too in > > understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into > > Cubist projects. > > > > but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about this... > > > > eireene > > > > On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, she > >> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it >very > >> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I >remember > >> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a >painter > >> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! > >> > >> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh, >how > >> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger's > >> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in >town! > >> > >> Stephen V > >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude >Stein: > >>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different > >>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. > >>> > >>> Charles > >>> > >>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: > >>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I would > >>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" > >>>> Michael > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar à m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a écrit >: > >>>> > >>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringent > >>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and >relay > >>>>> any responses > >>>>> > >>>>> thanx ! > >>>>> > >>>>> --mp > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ^^^^^^^^ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> here is the multi part query; > >>>>> > >>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars > >>>>> > >>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a >hurry, > >>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to >make > >>>>> up for lost time. > >>>>> > >>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein text >that > >>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the last > >>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies >discussing > >>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is >in > >>>>> no way crucial) > >>>>> > >>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be very > >>>>> helpful. > >>>>> > >>>>> many thanks > >>>>> > >>>> > >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> - > >>>>> --------- > >>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus >mail. > >>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> charles alexander / chax press > >>> > >>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always > >>> read from the inside out speak then > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus >mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:21:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Re: kari In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ever since my first reading of *a day in the life of p.* I've been anticipating with pleasure kari edwards' every word. This is a tough loss. Nick On 12/3/06 1:42 PM, "Tim Peterson" wrote: > I'm really, really upset to hear this...is it definitely true? I've just > heard the same thing this morning and am desperately trying to confirm the > story... > > Tim > > Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 11:33:01 -0700 > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> > Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> > From: Julie Kizershot <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards > In-Reply-To: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > kari has been a good friend to me and to many, a brave person, and an > amazing innovative writer. If anyone knows where her partner Fran is now or > how to contact, please back channel . Julie Kizershot [log in to unmask] On > Dec 3, 2006, at 11:27 AM, Joe Amato wrote: > I'm not sure I'm the best > person to relay such terrible news, as we > weren't intimate friends, but as > it affects our list community > generally: > > I've just learned that our > friend and correspondent for lo these > many years, kari edwards, passed > away this weekend from a cardiac > arrest. > > Very sorry to be the bearer > of such tidings, and extremely sad -- > > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:30:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kari Edwards' activities are well-known, and I think it no overstatement to say that her substantial spirit has and will continue to empower. During this past year, following what was my first introduction, sad to say, of her work, an issue of 'One Less' we shared - she, a wise and seasoned pro, me, certainly an amateur - I would subsequently become better aware of her graciousness (as she would offer to assist me in India and see, if she was able, to make it to a reading - 'now that I was on her list'). It's terrible, I think, how so much time is often relegated to simply waiting for more opportune moments to say, well, thank you - or to make that contact, very human one, where we are able to simply find the space in which to honor and be truly aware. At this moment, as has been said by many already, one is left but to recoil and contemplate lots. AJ --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:48:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Book Launch NYC: "Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing After the New York School" Comments: To: writenet@twc.org Comments: cc: Andrea Brady , Andrew Epstein , Ange Mlinko , Bob Perelman , Gary Lenhart , Harry Thorne , Jed Rasula , Jon Panish , Linda Russo , Lytle Shaw , Nick Selby , Paul and Patrick , Rachel Blau Duplessis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just in time for the Holidays. Book Launch for Don't Ever Get Famous: Essays on New York Writing After the New York School (Dalkey Archives, 2006) When: Saturday, December 16, 2006, 6 pm sharp. Where: The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012. 212.614.0505. Foot of First Street, between Houston & Bleecker, across the street from what used to be CBGBs. Take F train to Second Ave, or 6 train to Bleecker. Full bar and micro poetry readings featuring Bob Perelman, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Lytle Shaw, Marcella Durand, Brenda Coultas, Gary Lenhart, Lewis Warsh, and more. Books available for sale at discount. Table of contents for Don't Ever Get Famous: Andrew Epstein: "Against the Speech of Friends": Amiri Baraka Sings the "White Friend Blues" Jed Rasula: Deep Image Jon Panish: "As Radical As Society Demands the Truth to Be": Umbra's Racial Politics and Poetics Harry Thorne: "The New York School is a Joke": The Disruptive Poetics of C: A Journal of Poetry Daniel Kane: Angel Hair Magazine, The Second Generation New York School, And The Poetics of Sociability Linda Russo: Poetics of Adjacency: 0-9 and the Conceptual Writing of Bernadette Mayer & Hannah Weiner Lytle Shaw: Faulting Description: Clark Coolidge, Bernadette Mayer and the Site of Scientific Authority Rachel Blau DuPlessis: Anne Waldman: Standing Corporeally in One's Time Bob Perelman: "fucking / me across the decades like we / poets like": Embodied Poetic Transmission Nick Selby: 'A generous time': Lee Harwood in New York Patrick Masterson and Paul Stephens: Spring in This World of Mad Angels: The Poetry of Joseph Ceravolo Gary Lenhart:"Everyone you've ever been with for a moment": The poetry of Lewis Warsh Lorenzo Thomas: The Pleasures of Elusiveness: What Is In and Around Ron Padgett's Poetry Ange Mlinko: Charles North's Adventures in Poetry Andrea Brady: The Other Poet: Wieners, O'Hara, Olson .apologies if this ends up cross-posting. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:25:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow joe terrible how old ? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 18:26:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thom donovan Subject: Peace On A presents Paolo Javier & El=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9na?= Rivera Friday, December 8th 2006 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peace On A presents Paolo Javier & Eléna Rivera Friday, December 8th 2006 8PM sharp BYOB & suggested donation: $5 hosted by Thom Donovan at: 166 Avenue A, Apartment #2 New York, NY 10009 about the readers: Paolo Javier is the author of *60 lv bo(e)mbs* (O Books), & *the time at the end of this writing* (Ahadada). He recently completed a full-length play, *Lunatic*, & has presented his short dramatic works at Poet's Theater Jamboree in San Francisco. He edits 2nd Ave Poetry (http://www.2ndavepoetry.com/), & lives in New York. Eléna Rivera is the author of *Mistakes, Accidents and a Want of Liberty* (Barque Press, 2006), *Suggestions at Every Turn* (Seeing Eye Books, 2005), and *Unknowne Land* (Kelsey St. Press, 2000), and a recent pamphlet entitled *Disturbances in the Ocean of Air* (Phylum Press, 2005). She won first prize in the 1998 Stand Magazine International Poetry Competition and the 1999 Frances Jaffer Book Award. Peace On A is an events series devoted to emergent work by writers, artists, performers and scholars. Past presenters at Peace on A include Alan Gilbert, E. Tracy Grinnell, Cathy Park Hong and Andrew Levy. Scroll down Wild Horses of Fire weblog (whof.blogspot.com) for back advertisements, introductions and reading selections. “to the united states of america on the other side of this page”—Hannah Weiner Thom Donovan 166 Avenue A NY, NY 10009 whof.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 02:37:08 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: T_Martin Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain i am still in shock. kari was a truly wonderful human being, and a = terrific friend. kari shared with such courage. What a loss this is. Tim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:38:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Poetics List Welcome Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics.list --at -- gmail.com note our new address! 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Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:41:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: The Invented Life of Kitty Duncan: A Novel by Kat Meads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline c h i a s m u s p r e s s www.chiasmusmedia.net announces the release of The Invented Life of Kitty Duncan (Benedict Roberts Duncan) a novel by Kat Meads "Hold onto your hats, ladies and gents, you are about to meet some folks you won't soon forget, even if you want to. Kat Meads's hilarious and hair-raising tale of Kitty Duncan's recless and willful descent into perdition is an irresistible one. Maybe Meads isn't reinventing the novel here, but she's surely finding marvelous new ways to shape it. She's like some instrument, and blasts one amazing and unexpected chord after another, alarming us with her narrative bravado and enchanting us with her strange and haunting melody. The Invented Life of Kitty Duncan (Benedict Roberts Duncan) is a wild ride, indeed, a breathtaking and edgy romp. --John Dufresne, author of Johnny Too Bad "Taut, incisive and sardonic, crisp yet droll, Kat Meads's quirky fiction has an open-door policy allowing emotion, pathos and drama to come inside, to visit for a while, to watch from the sidelines, or put their hands around your throat." --Cris Mazza, author of Is It Sexual Harassment Yet? And Waterbaby Kat Meads is the author of Sleep, Not Waving, Born Southern and Restless, and other works of fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. She has received a National Endowment for the Arts fellowship, a Fine Arts Work Center in Provincetown residency, the Chelsea award fro fiction and the New Letters award for essay. She lives in California. chiasmus press www.chiasmusmedia.net books requiring a brain. Be sure to come visit us at our booktable at AWP Atlanta, TABLE 123 (how easy is that to remember?) where you will find Kat's book as well as an armful of books worth carrying. The Invented Life of Kitty Duncan/Kat Meads isbn 0-9785499-2-9 Chiasmus books are distributed through SPD and Ingram. Sent on behalf of Lidia Yuknavitch . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 01:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: danse (wds d'Imobilite and Sondheim) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed danse artificial, but on the 'edge' of both dance and not doing what we will do all. Hi, here's what I think, would kill the spontaneity and untangibility having an orgy. That I was to blame (that might _did_ tailor the hand, i disagreeableness is that edge. On the other hand in the history of culture aporia, a knot in a way. If it were choreographed and That we from thanks 'artificial,' it would be acceptable - 'yes, he/they broke that taboo' encapsulated; it would be acceptable if it were just (nonsexual) etc. But to other things" etc....) also structure aim of this piece i think. maybe formalize the gestures would also the same effect couner any criticism on would have to choreograph an erection or an overwhelmed here but have think about these issues and argue about betraying you, we wanted to there also, we know we are in an artificial set up allows to protect the viewer specifically dance), dance-forms would be into my life so far. on one etc. just forwarded pastel it. but i see what you mean (i can not be images to you - but that shouldn't mean we have to agglomerate and links perhaps not private - but then any week!! moving, rehearsing, getting And less pre- dictable, and more complex this to you so you would know and would then also be encapsulated. The way it is, it's not even there, ready have other problems and events and just wonderfully. i am in total of and on our own. And far word: sexuality (veering into the latter). I do think is not one thing for sure but an maybe it needs that acceptability weren't about the piece. it's going to be a very busy dancing....) get me wrong: i piece actually. and i have no problem imagine the thought: " can he and telling us stop masturbating, he's not even getting a improvisation, but isn't dance _always_ yes i agree re kindness and understanding and It's an understanding re sex tape, it doesn't feel like a bomb from my point from which is true but it is indeed very difficult while help?). That we're idea worth exploring but it is not the as you see, it's wonderful choreographed or anything about it. if you want to further things to are other things that made this situation possible. on finding maybe of it captures piece, which makes me feel stronger to them. thank you for the debate, you are most welcome. the other, i really defend this to do the in the rest of the piece. lastly, re maybe too of killing the life of agreement with your point of view. again, like anything in life ("this to it. something that some of vividness of the actions of the piece. on thing view, i think this piece should be not more stuctured: it had nothing i setting up, each one separated, clothed, natural, whistling, in one more, a surplus; the sexuality would voyeur in this sense? Although to thinking anyway. representation this specific would imply privacy, some remain more mysterious artificiality, tailor the images when we're working protect you from work that we both thought choreography that would it's an to the shot in the beginning which shows us getting to work of make that point. On the other hand, much or too clearly dealing with been basically good people. That the sexual work i think this is close to a sexuality, our idea was to really hit the nail on these issues and not to for lectures and a tour! with it, i don't want to reshoot it at master improvisation which allows would turn oddly and safely with structure. it what is shown. structure would obstruct arousal or getting wet... continuing to discuss calmly you basically wouldn't like. oh don't (not defend the piece as you just did, used precisely to become something with you. And when you were , we hard on..." hihihih ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 07:30:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: <20061203.183734.793.274880@webmail01.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am reading this now, it is a shock. She promised she was going to send me a mail, and I was waiting for it. She had told me she was not well. I am very very sorry. I hope there is a way, and that she will find it. Anny On 12/4/06, T_Martin wrote: > > i am still in shock. kari was a truly wonderful human being, and a > terrific friend. kari shared with such courage. What a loss this is. > Tim > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:25:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards In-Reply-To: <20061203.183734.793.274880@webmail01.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I knew kari. I'm totally in shock. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw her: I think it was at/after a reading in the Left Hand series in Boulder. This would have been a few years ago. This is a major loss, as others have expressed. Her project seemed to particularly take shape & momentum within the last several years. Too soon. This is a sad day. As an addendum, I also knew Brad Will, whose death has been discussed in other threads on this list. His death also struck me personally; I was going to post something on this list about it, including an elegy I wrote for him, and collaborative poems he, I & Danika Dinsmore wrote, once upon a time; but I grew too busy, & now the moment seems to have already passed. I mourn the deaths of people I never imagined could pass so swiftly. I hope the powers of whatever-will-be shall forestall such useless loss, at least for now or in the future. Mark DuCharme From: T_Martin Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Tragic news -- kari edwards Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 02:37:08 GMT i am still in shock. kari was a truly wonderful human being, and a terrific friend. kari shared with such courage. What a loss this is. Tim _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:06:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news Comments: To: ggatza@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tragic News - kari edwards It was announced over our many poetry lists that a dear friend an d brilliant poet, kari edwards passed a short while ago. I was working with her on her latest book, having been blue for charity. We were set to release it shortly. And with no motive other a coming together for her we have placed this book online as an ebook at her BlazeVOX [books] webpage. Webpage: http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ke.htm Direct link to book http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf This is simply a stunning book and I urge you to spend a moment with kari's poetry. I don't know what else to say as I am numb. Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza BlazeVOX [books] www.blazevox.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 05:17:51 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog (of kari edwards) Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , UK Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Of kari edwards (against pronouns) Representing San Francisco to Italian readers Ken & Ann Mikolowski’s Alternative Press ends a run of annuals after more than 30 years Country Girl by Hannah Weiner The uses of multiplicity and layering (Frank Film, by Frank and Caroline Mouris) and the Ubuweb Film Archive Notes on painting and more The Da Vinci Code as film being faithful to the book breaking faith with the audience Some links regarding Alice’s Restaurant Joanna Newsom etc The middle road of Jim Bertolino A new poem by Jack Spicer in a marvelous anthology about the Bancroft Library (plus an aside on the poetry of Kevin Killian) http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sina Queyras Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news In-Reply-To: <001401c717a4$f3d115f0$040aa8c0@adminstret4wjx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Geoffrey, Thanks for posting this. The book is stunning. Sina > Tragic News - kari edwards > > > It was announced over our many poetry lists that a dear friend an d > brilliant poet, kari edwards passed a short while ago. I was working with > her on her latest book, having been blue for charity. We were set to > release > it shortly. And with no motive other a coming together for her we have > placed this book online as an ebook at her BlazeVOX [books] > webpage. > > Webpage: > http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ke.htm > > Direct link to book > > http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf > > This is simply a stunning book and I urge you to spend a moment with > kari's > poetry. I don't know what else to say as I am numb. > > Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza > > Best, Geoffrey > > Geoffrey Gatza > BlazeVOX [books] > www.blazevox.org > -- Sina Queyras Visiting Assistant Professor Department of English Woodside Cottage Haverford College 370 Lancaster Avenue Haverford, PA 19041-1392 (610) 896-1256 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 09:47:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassandra Laity Subject: Williams's medical school papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Does anyone know if any archives exist containing material on William Carlos Williams's classes, notes, etc. in medical school at Penn? Are they at the Beinecke? Cassandra Laity Cassandra Laity Associate Professor Co-Editor Modernism/Modernity Drew University Madison, NJ 07940 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:47:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Eagle Scouts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- this is a nod to kari, who i did not know, to tie the threads together -- from Edward Abbey "Thus we meditate upon the stranger's death. Since he was unknown to any of us we joke about his fate, as is only natural and wholesome under the circumstances. If he'd meant anything to us maybe we could mourn. If we had loved him we would sing, dance, drink, build a stupendous bonfire --" -- may she rest in peace -- heidi On 12/3/06, Robert Lunday wrote: > > Speaking up: a proud, artsy former Eagle Scout here... forced to it, > though, > by my military stepdad: I admit I would have quit otherwise. Gerald R. > Ford > machine-signed my certificate! I have another poet-friend who also holds > the > badge... and I will also add that knot-tying and poetry-writing have > always > seemed remarkably similar acts of imaginiation, to me... > > On 11/29/06, David Harrison Horton wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Just offhand the question of the Boy Scout system came up. I made it to > > Cub Scout and no further. Many of my successful "arty" friends are Eagle > > Scouts. A high percentage in fact.Informal survey, how many of us went > > through the Boy Scout system? How far did you get? > > > > I don't know the equivalents for Brownies/Girl Scouts, but would like to > > be informed and get similar involvement feedback. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > David Harrison Horton > > unionherald.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! > > > > > http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=7adb59de-a857-45ba-81cc-685ee3e858fe > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:02:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Poetry Blogs" Anny Ballardini MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Poetry Blogs." Anny Ballardini's thesis on poetry blogs: http://lowres.uno.edu:80/classes/cyberlit/papers/ballardini/opening.html Well-designed, good historical information, and a "webiography." -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 10:46:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news In-Reply-To: <001401c717a4$f3d115f0$040aa8c0@adminstret4wjx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is a sweet and generous thing to do, Geoffrey -- many thanks. Best, Joe >Tragic News - kari edwards > > >It was announced over our many poetry lists that a dear friend an d >brilliant poet, kari edwards passed a short while ago. I was working with >her on her latest book, having been blue for charity. We were set to release >it shortly. And with no motive other a coming together for her we have >placed this book online as an ebook at her BlazeVOX [books] >webpage. > >Webpage: >http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ke.htm > >Direct link to book > >http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf > >This is simply a stunning book and I urge you to spend a moment with kari's >poetry. I don't know what else to say as I am numb. > >Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza > >Best, Geoffrey > >Geoffrey Gatza >BlazeVOX [books] >www.blazevox.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 11:45:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Kress Subject: New Polish Translation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline HarrowGate Press announces the publication of a new verse translation of the 19th century. Polish Romantic epic, PAN TADEUSZ by Adam Mickiewicz. Translated by Leonard Kress. Free PDF download (278 pages): http://www.harrowgatepress.com/pan.pdf www.harrowgatepress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: Stefans/Long Philadelphia Book Launch, this Friday 7-9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BOOK LAUNCH Friday (yes, this one), December 8th 7-9 pm Higher Grounds Caf=E9 631 North 3rd St.=20 (near corner of Fairmount) "What Is Said to the Poet Concerning Flowers" (poems) Brian Kim Stefans Published by Factory School http://www.factorys chool.org "The Dog" and "The Last Hot Day of Summer" (stories) Nathan Long Published by Popular Ink http://www.populari nk.com FREE Books and T-shirts for sale... Drink and foodstuffs provided... SHORT READINGS BY THE AUTHORS SOME VIDEOS BY BKS=20 BUT OTHERWISE SIMPLY CARROUSING ...with you... __._,_.___=20 Messages in this topic = (1) Reply = (via web post) | Start a new topic=20 Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar =20 To Post a message, send it to: ubuweb@eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ubuweb-unsubscribe@eGroups.com=20 =20 Yahoo! Groups Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)=20 Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional=20 Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups = Terms of Use | Unsubscribe =20 Visit Your Group=20 New Message Search Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the = improved message search. Share feedback on the new changes to Groups . =20 =20 __,_._,___=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:34:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paolo javier Subject: 2nd Ave Poetry Vol. 2 Launch, Dec 16, 6 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline you are cordially invited to the launch of 2nd Ave Poetry vol. 2 ( 2ndavepoetry.com) Dec 16, 2006 6 PM @ Lolita no cover 266 Broome St. (corner of Broome & Allen) readings/performances by vol.2 contributors Sabrina Gschwandtner | Phebus Etienne | Jill Magi | Aaron Peck Regie Cabico | Urayoan Noel | Ellen Kennedy | Tao Lin DJ sets by Despo and Charles Valle go to 2ndavepoetry.com to view invite + complete contributors list yr editors, Paolo & Emmy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:06:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news In-Reply-To: <001401c717a4$f3d115f0$040aa8c0@adminstret4wjx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hey Geoffrey, Thanks for putting the book online! I'd really like to read it. Unfortunately, I just spent at least 40 minutes trying to download it... unsuccessfully. (I have OS9 connected by a phone line.) Is there any way I could trouble you to e-mail it to me? Thanks, Mark From: Geoffrey Gatza Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:06:01 -0500 Tragic News - kari edwards It was announced over our many poetry lists that a dear friend an d brilliant poet, kari edwards passed a short while ago. I was working with her on her latest book, having been blue for charity. We were set to release it shortly. And with no motive other a coming together for her we have placed this book online as an ebook at her BlazeVOX [books] webpage. Webpage: http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ke.htm Direct link to book http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf This is simply a stunning book and I urge you to spend a moment with kari's poetry. I don't know what else to say as I am numb. Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza BlazeVOX [books] www.blazevox.org _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:35:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, Glad to hear from you :-) And thanks for the kind words in regards to kari's book. A real loss! I'm simply heart sick over this. And I wasn't sure about the appropriateness of releasing the ebook. So again thanks for easing my mind. I'll attach the file to my next email to you. It is a large file and it sounds like it might take a while on your phone line. It's about 3.5 megs. So if you want me to send you a print copy I'll do that. It'll be ready in a month or so. But that seems so long.... I'll email it after hearing back from you if it's ok to do this :-) OR Right click on this link and choose SAVE AS http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf This is cause it to download directly to your computer desktop and you can open it from there. Try this and see if it works. I also owe you an email on books. Please no worries on my end on anything. Your time table is so well timed with the other things going on with the press -- you are very on-time :-) So your patience gets a gold star in my book. I'll send you an updated file with your ISBN and so forth this week sometime. Maybe today. But please don't feel anything other than comfortable. There is no rush on anything and this is not homework. Besides I'm a huge fan of your work and I am thrilled that we are working together! So hurrah on a bad day. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza BlazeVOX [books] www.blazevox.org -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark DuCharme Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 3:07 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news Hey Geoffrey, Thanks for putting the book online! I'd really like to read it. Unfortunately, I just spent at least 40 minutes trying to download it... unsuccessfully. (I have OS9 connected by a phone line.) Is there any way I could trouble you to e-mail it to me? Thanks, Mark From: Geoffrey Gatza Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:06:01 -0500 Tragic News - kari edwards It was announced over our many poetry lists that a dear friend an d brilliant poet, kari edwards passed a short while ago. I was working with her on her latest book, having been blue for charity. We were set to release it shortly. And with no motive other a coming together for her we have placed this book online as an ebook at her BlazeVOX [books] webpage. Webpage: http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ke.htm Direct link to book http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf This is simply a stunning book and I urge you to spend a moment with kari's poetry. I don't know what else to say as I am numb. Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza BlazeVOX [books] www.blazevox.org _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:40:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (and please note it's http://www.asondheim.org/lungatar.mp4 - apologies) gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu jorwuthemugon, jorwuhgan jorwuarlddesmumjorwuarlmumjorwuarllmumjorwuan- guagesmugon, jorwuamumjorwueemumjorwupokenmugon, jorwuarlvemumjorwuwrit- tenmugon, jorwuusmumjorwuhimumugan jorwuarlncemugon, jorwuarlmumjorwuhgan jorwuermumjorwueamumjorwulawemumjorwurefimumugan jorwuarlnmumjorwusuffi- mumjorwuystemmumjorwuollapsemumjorwueneatmumjorwuhgan jorwueighmumjor- wuarlmumjorwuhgan jorwuimplesmumjorwubarltterancegun gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu bor-orwuthegangon bor-orwuonlygon bor-orwutimegangon bor-orwuthisgon bor-orwulanguagegangon bor-orwuhasgon bor-orwuevergon bor-orwu bor-orwubeengon bor-orwuusedgon bor-orwuingon bor-orwuangon bor-orwuutterancegangon bor-orwuingon bor-orwufactgon bor-orwuisgon bor-orwuthisgon bor-orwuoncegangon bor-orwu,gon bor-orwugivengon bor-orwuthegangon bor-orwuoverlygon bor-orwucomplexgon bor-orwu bor-orwunaturegangon bor-orwuofgon bor-orwuthegangon bor-orwuprefixgon bor-orwuandgon bor-orwugon bor-orwusuffixgon bor-orwusystemsgon bor-orwuemployedgon bor-orwu, bor-orwugon bor-orwuwhichgon bor-orwuaregangon bor-orwuingon bor-orwufactgon bor-orwu, bor-orwugon bor-orwuasgon bor-orwuwellgon bor-orwu, bor-orwugon bor-orwualmostgon bor-orwu bor-orwuunbelievablegangon bor-orwubor-orwu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:04:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline wow! thank you david. that is plenty more than i knew. what books exactly are they where gertrude (or others) talk about the transformation of langauge by painting's new relationship to time (or whatever it is that they say)? lots of reading still to do on this. the main (favorite book) that i have read on this is Gleizes and Metzinger's "On Cubism" which has been important in trying to think about time through our little discussed human proprioceptive senses but my wee brain always falls off some sort of a cliff before I get back to proprioception and langauge (probably because I always try to go at it through Duchamp...& if anyone has any favorite works on him (and optics and eternal return) i'm hoping to get back to that paper again later too. and well i still advocate for whitehead, not to replace gertrude, but to help us think about writing in this process philosophy way. it is really good stuff in a way more helpful (for me anyhow) than the bergson that people always seem to cling to. but maybe i am missing something big about him? to more good discussions of all of this. eireene On 12/3/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > in the autobiography of alice b. toklas, whitehead is one of the three > people that stein met and heard the bells that announced she was meeting = a > genius > > (so one imagines yes she read his work, too--he was ver ywell known in t= hat > time--his photo for example wd show up in vanity fair, etc--) > > it is interesting reading the responses to the query--i was thinking how = the > works cited for the much greater part are al those which related Stein wi= th > language poetry only, from that particular perspective-- > as though there had been no work on her previously--though there is indee= d > quite a lot-- > and from people writing from a great many perspectives, including many > important views from artists working in other media who learmed from/work= ed > with Stein's work and her in person--and this beginning very early in her > career--(the large correspondance with sherwood anderson for example, of = an > early one--) > > i am well aware of Stein's great effect on language poetry, beginning wit= h > robert grenier, who was teaching the yale stein at franconia college ealr= y > 1970s--but at same time seems like limiting the worship of a goddess to o= ne > sect among a great many--and work on her limited to that begun with just > one persepctive's interpretation of the canon-- > (thinking of this as humourous--so , please, not saying this to raise ire= ) > then later on today on yahoo newspager saw a story that in kenya > fundamentalist christian sects pushing very hard on govt that when museum > reopens, its world famous and one of most important exhibitions of earlie= st > skeletons of hominds and homo sapiens--instead of being promiently > displayed, be removed and put away into back rooms--where only the intrep= id > wil follow after in the dimness to view them--that evolution is not fact, > but only a theory-- > > i couldn't help laughing, as this seems the situation with gertrude stein > here-- > there is no evolution in work on her work, or with her work-- > only a creation out of a vacuum--and all stein work begining from > there--that moment, and done by the members of that sect born of the > revelation of that moment--and their students, disciples, acolytes etc-- > > a great deal can be learned directly from stein--she is very clear in > explaining her ideas--in her essays and compositions-- > she lays her major concerns very straight forwardly----objects, landscap= es, > geographies, the swifter and swfiter pasage of things being seen as ugly = to > theirbeing seen as beaitufl and accpeted into daily mas production using > their images, ideas--etc-- > she also wrote a great deal about the influence of painting on her > work--that is very interesting--and crucial in the development of her ear= ly > writing-- > again, from very ealryon stein was written abt a goo deal by other writer= s > infouenced by her, influencing her, interested in her work and vice > cersa--and a great deal can be found in their coreespondance and wirtings= in > this reagrd still of great interest and use-- > > as wel as great deal that has been written on the interrelatednessness of > stein's early work s esp in relation to painting, the wys painters were > changng language in painting, and ways of seeing things in space and how > this relates with time, space-time -- > > which is vey intersting and different from what is often the case, as bri= on > gysin told willaim s burroughs--that writing lags fifty years behind > painting--if so, why then not be learning from painters, which is what st= ein > was doing much of-- > > > > > > > >From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein > >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 > > > >Eireene, > >I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the Stein-Whitehead > >connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. All I = may > >do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close Olson-Whitehea= d > >connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and has bee= n > >efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find evidence of > >Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you working on? = I > >wish you could tell us some more. > >My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... > >Michael > > > > > >le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand =E0 eireene@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : > > > > > This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topic > > > of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy researc= h > > > into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that > > > that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or > > > cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as > > > "with tender patience leading..." > > > > > > I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit of > > > a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great > > > discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender > > > Buttons much more exciting for me. > > > > > > Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too i= n > > > understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into > > > Cubist projects. > > > > > > but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about this.= .. > > > > > > eireene > > > > > > On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > >> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, = she > > >> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found i= t > >very > > >> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I > >remember > > >> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a > >painter > > >> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! > > >> > > >> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh= , > >how > > >> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monge= r's > > >> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in > >town! > > >> > > >> Stephen V > > >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrud= e > >Stein: > > >>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different > > >>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. > > >>> > > >>> Charles > > >>> > > >>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: > > >>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I wou= ld > > >>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" > > >>>> Michael > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a = =E9crit > >: > > >>>> > > >>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringe= nt > > >>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, an= d > >relay > > >>>>> any responses > > >>>>> > > >>>>> thanx ! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> --mp > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ^^^^^^^^ > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> here is the multi part query; > > >>>>> > > >>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars > > >>>>> > > >>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a > >hurry, > > >>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need t= o > >make > > >>>>> up for lost time. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein te= xt > >that > > >>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the l= ast > > >>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies > >discussing > > >>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this = is > >in > > >>>>> no way crucial) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be ve= ry > > >>>>> helpful. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> many thanks > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > >> >> > > >> - > > >>>>> --------- > > >>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-vir= us > >mail. > > >>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > >>> charles alexander / chax press > > >>> > > >>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always > > >>> read from the inside out speak then > > >> > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > > > --------- > > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus > >mail. > > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powere= d > by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:12:22 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news In-Reply-To: <000001c717e3$c3cc4e30$040aa8c0@adminstret4wjx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've spent the afternoon and evening reading it (it is already 10pm here) even if I know that a book like this would require months to go through it. Thank you Geoffrey for bringing kari to us again. On 12/4/06, Geoffrey Gatza wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > Glad to hear from you :-) And thanks for the kind words in regards to > kari's > book. A real loss! I'm simply heart sick over this. And I wasn't sure > about > the appropriateness of releasing the ebook. So again thanks for easing my > mind. > > I'll attach the file to my next email to you. It is a large file and it > sounds like it might take a while on your phone line. It's about 3.5 megs. > So if you want me to send you a print copy I'll do that. It'll be ready in > a > month or so. But that seems so long.... I'll email it after hearing back > from you if it's ok to do this :-) > > OR > > Right click on this link and choose SAVE AS > > http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf > > This is cause it to download directly to your computer desktop and you can > open it from there. Try this and see if it works. > > > I also owe you an email on books. Please no worries on my end on anything. > Your time table is so well timed with the other things going on with the > press -- you are very on-time :-) So your patience gets a gold star in my > book. > > I'll send you an updated file with your ISBN and so forth this week > sometime. Maybe today. But please don't feel anything other than > comfortable. There is no rush on anything and this is not homework. > Besides > I'm a huge fan of your work and I am thrilled that we are working > together! > So hurrah on a bad day. > > > > Best, Geoffrey > > Geoffrey Gatza > BlazeVOX [books] > www.blazevox.org > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Mark DuCharme > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 3:07 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic > news > > Hey Geoffrey, > > Thanks for putting the book online! I'd really like to read it. > Unfortunately, I just spent at least 40 minutes trying to download it... > unsuccessfully. (I have OS9 connected by a phone line.) Is there any way > I > > could trouble you to e-mail it to me? > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > From: Geoffrey Gatza > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: e-release of kari edwards latest book in moments of tragic news > Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:06:01 -0500 > > Tragic News - kari edwards > > > It was announced over our many poetry lists that a dear friend an d > brilliant poet, kari edwards passed a short while ago. I was working with > her on her latest book, having been blue for charity. We were set to > release > it shortly. And with no motive other a coming together for her we have > placed this book online as an ebook at her BlazeVOX [books] > webpage. > > Webpage: > http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ke.htm > > Direct link to book > > http://www.blazevox.org/ebk-ke.pdf > > This is simply a stunning book and I urge you to spend a moment with > kari's > poetry. I don't know what else to say as I am numb. > > Thank you, Geoffrey Gatza > > Best, Geoffrey > > Geoffrey Gatza > BlazeVOX [books] > www.blazevox.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered > by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 12-04-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SMALL PRESS POETRY Simon Pettet and Richard Owens Poetry Reading Thursday, December 7, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo Simon Pettet is an English-born poet andlong-time resident of New York's Lo= wer East Side. His new book (recently out=21) is called More Winnowed Fragments . He= 'll be reading from it and signing copies tonight. His Selected Poems is also stil= l available from Talisman. He is also the author of two classic collaborations with pho= tographer- filmaker, Rudy Burckhardt, Conversations About Everything and Talking Pictu= res .=22Like Beethoven's Bagatelles,=22 John Ashbery wrote, =22Simon Pettet's short poem= s have a great deal to say, and their seemingly modest dimensions help rather than h= inder his saying it.=22 Raised in Sussex County, NJ, Richard Owens currently lives, w= orks and studies in Buffalo, NY, where he also edits Damn the Caesars, an annual jou= rnal devoted to supporting the language arts in print and on the web. His writin= g has appeared in O Poss, Skanky Possum, Jacket, Rain Taxi, Bongos of the Lord, M= aximum Rock-n-Roll and elsewhere.=00 INTERDISCIPLINARY EVENT Home For the Holidays, featuring Buffalo natives Bassist Juini Booth and Poet Pamela Plummer Returning Home for the Holidays for A Reading and Concert Saturday, December 9, 7 p.m. Langston Hughes Institute, 25 High St. Buffalo Take a break from the hustle and bustle of the holdays with friends old and= new as we welcome back to the area two Buffalonians, bassist Juini Booth and poet Pam= ela Plummer. Juini Booth has expanded the range of the contrabass into a refine= d personal language of intense acoustic awareness and spatiality of sound. Fi= rmly rooted in the forefront of the American jazz tradition, which he has helped= to shape, Booth)=08s music also integrates influences from world music, emerging beyo= nd the boundaries of categories to express the poetics of universal humanness. Jui= ni Booth has performed and toured for over 30 years with jazz musicians from Art Bla= key and the Jazz Messengers to Tony Williams Lifetime to Coleman Hawkins to Albert = Ayler to Chuck Mangione to Sun Ra to McCoy Tyner.Born and raised in Buffalo, N.Y., P= amela Quarles Plummer is a poet, social worker, educator, musician and author of = two volumes of poetry, Skin of My Palms ( 2004) and Meditation on Ironing Board= s & Other Blues (1994). A recipient of the Hughes, Diop, Knight Poetry Award from the Gwendolyn Brooks Center for Black Literature and Creative Writing, Pamela's= work has appeared in numerous journals and anthologies, including Drumvoices Rev= iew , Obsidian III , Eyeball , WarpLand , and Bum Rush the Page-a def poetry jam.= =00 JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently added the abilit= y to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. Simply click on the me= mbership level at which you would like to join, log in (or create a PayPal account u= sing your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), and voil=C3=A1, you will find yourself in l= iterary heaven. For more info, or to join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Market Arca= de Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. = Call Just Buffalo for details. RECURRING EVENTS TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group will begin on Thursday, December 7 at noon at Star= bucks Coffee on Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldbe= rg=E2=80=99s suggested exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, ficti= on and non- fiction welcome. There is no charge. Everyone contributes a start line (one= sentence or a sentence fragment or a word). The start lines are put in a hat or a bowl= and we draw them out for each writing segment. The segments are timed: five minutes fo= r the first and then writers have the opportunity to read what they=E2=80=99ve written = if they choose. They can also pass. The next segments last ten minutes, fifteen minutes, twenty = minutes and then back to five. In a group of five or six (if there=E2=80=99s more write= rs, we split up into two or more groups), the entire exercise should take an hour. No Praise, No Blame= philosophy. People write and read what they=E2=80=99ve read or they pass wi= thout comment from the group. Contact Trudy for info: Trudetta=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every month at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 H= arlem Road, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:40:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <578647560612041304h65a57551qff04cf1129a68657@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable hi all does anyone have eliot weinberger's current email address? many thanks if you wd backchannel me w/ that. I am sorry for those of you to whom kari edwards was a friend. she was, it seems, a brave, emotionally expressive and postmodern poet, from what i hav= e read of her poetry. ulla dydo writes abt stein & time. ruth On 12/4/06 4:04 PM, "Eireene Nealand" wrote: > wow! thank you david. that is plenty more than i knew. >=20 > what books exactly are they where gertrude (or others) talk about the > transformation of langauge by painting's new relationship to time (or > whatever it is that they say)? lots of reading still to do on this. >=20 > the main (favorite book) that i have read on this is Gleizes and > Metzinger's "On Cubism" which has been important in trying to think > about time through our little discussed human proprioceptive senses >=20 > but my wee brain always falls off some sort of a cliff before I get > back to proprioception and langauge (probably because I always try to > go at it through Duchamp...& if anyone has any favorite works on him > (and optics and eternal return) i'm hoping to get back to that paper > again later too. >=20 > and well i still advocate for whitehead, not to replace gertrude, but > to help us think about writing in this process philosophy way. it is > really good stuff in a way more helpful (for me anyhow) than the > bergson that people always seem to cling to. but maybe i am missing > something big about him? >=20 > to more good discussions of all of this. >=20 > eireene >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 12/3/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >> in the autobiography of alice b. toklas, whitehead is one of the three >> people that stein met and heard the bells that announced she was meeting= a >> genius >>=20 >> (so one imagines yes she read his work, too--he was ver ywell known in = that >> time--his photo for example wd show up in vanity fair, etc--) >>=20 >> it is interesting reading the responses to the query--i was thinking how= the >> works cited for the much greater part are al those which related Stein w= ith >> language poetry only, from that particular perspective-- >> as though there had been no work on her previously--though there is inde= ed >> quite a lot-- >> and from people writing from a great many perspectives, including many >> important views from artists working in other media who learmed from/wor= ked >> with Stein's work and her in person--and this beginning very early in he= r >> career--(the large correspondance with sherwood anderson for example, of= an >> early one--) >>=20 >> i am well aware of Stein's great effect on language poetry, beginning wi= th >> robert grenier, who was teaching the yale stein at franconia college eal= ry >> 1970s--but at same time seems like limiting the worship of a goddess to = one >> sect among a great many--and work on her limited to that begun with jus= t >> one persepctive's interpretation of the canon-- >> (thinking of this as humourous--so , please, not saying this to raise ir= e) >> then later on today on yahoo newspager saw a story that in kenya >> fundamentalist christian sects pushing very hard on govt that when museu= m >> reopens, its world famous and one of most important exhibitions of earli= est >> skeletons of hominds and homo sapiens--instead of being promiently >> displayed, be removed and put away into back rooms--where only the intre= pid >> wil follow after in the dimness to view them--that evolution is not fact= , >> but only a theory-- >>=20 >> i couldn't help laughing, as this seems the situation with gertrude stei= n >> here-- >> there is no evolution in work on her work, or with her work-- >> only a creation out of a vacuum--and all stein work begining from >> there--that moment, and done by the members of that sect born of the >> revelation of that moment--and their students, disciples, acolytes etc-- >>=20 >> a great deal can be learned directly from stein--she is very clear in >> explaining her ideas--in her essays and compositions-- >> she lays her major concerns very straight forwardly----objects, landsca= pes, >> geographies, the swifter and swfiter pasage of things being seen as ugly= to >> theirbeing seen as beaitufl and accpeted into daily mas production using >> their images, ideas--etc-- >> she also wrote a great deal about the influence of painting on her >> work--that is very interesting--and crucial in the development of her ea= rly >> writing-- >> again, from very ealryon stein was written abt a goo deal by other write= rs >> infouenced by her, influencing her, interested in her work and vice >> cersa--and a great deal can be found in their coreespondance and wirting= s in >> this reagrd still of great interest and use-- >>=20 >> as wel as great deal that has been written on the interrelatednessness o= f >> stein's early work s esp in relation to painting, the wys painters were >> changng language in painting, and ways of seeing things in space and how >> this relates with time, space-time -- >>=20 >> which is vey intersting and different from what is often the case, as br= ion >> gysin told willaim s burroughs--that writing lags fifty years behind >> painting--if so, why then not be learning from painters, which is what s= tein >> was doing much of-- >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" >>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein >>> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 >>>=20 >>> Eireene, >>> I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the Stein-Whitehead >>> connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. All I= may >>> do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close Olson-Whitehe= ad >>> connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and has be= en >>> efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find evidence of >>> Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you working on?= I >>> wish you could tell us some more. >>> My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... >>> Michael >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand =E0 eireene@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : >>>=20 >>>> This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topic >>>> of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy research >>>> into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that >>>> that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or >>>> cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as >>>> "with tender patience leading..." >>>>=20 >>>> I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit of >>>> a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great >>>> discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender >>>> Buttons much more exciting for me. >>>>=20 >>>> Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too in >>>> understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into >>>> Cubist projects. >>>>=20 >>>> but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about this..= . >>>>=20 >>>> eireene >>>>=20 >>>> On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>>>> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, s= he >>>>> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found it >>> very >>>>> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I >>> remember >>>>> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a >>> painter >>>>> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! >>>>>=20 >>>>> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - gosh, >>> how >>>>> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war monger= 's >>>>> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) in >>> town! >>>>>=20 >>>>> Stephen V >>>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, Gertrude >>> Stein: >>>>>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about different >>>>>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Charles >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >>>>>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I woul= d >>>>>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a =E9cr= it >>> : >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a stringen= t >>>>>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this request, and >>> relay >>>>>>>> any responses >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> thanx ! >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> --mp >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^ >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> here is the multi part query; >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of a >>> hurry, >>>>>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need to >>> make >>>>>>>> up for lost time. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein tex= t >>> that >>>>>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the la= st >>>>>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies >>> discussing >>>>>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this i= s >>> in >>>>>>>> no way crucial) >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be ver= y >>>>>>>> helpful. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> many thanks >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ->>> - >>>>>>>=20 >>>>> - >>>>>>>> --------- >>>>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-viru= s >>> mail. >>>>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> charles alexander / chax press >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always >>>>>> read from the inside out speak then >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >>> -- >>>> --------- >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus >>> mail. >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio power= ed >> by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:43:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weaver Subject: Re: kari edwards In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 what sad news to hear of this--I only began correspondence with her over her generous contribution to Midway, and we were honored and excited to include her piece in our first issue--we will link to the e-book and other links-- my condolences and prayers and thoughts to her friends here and everywhere, becky weaver ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:03:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu, or de profundis jorwu-i In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable pearls of simple utterance spaces but/or painful=20 dance only this time this one time I was able to relate the past to them and they, heart breakingly, could not get any of the ytvtu of the buJtu of the vjf RMGbtk yhS fhJt btxu vtl ftzo Ctzu ytvtu ylu cu nhLk J;h buJtu yb'tJt',mtubJth vjf RMGbtk yhS fhJt btxu ;btht vhbulLx yuftWLx lkchltu Wvgtud fhJt 'tu ylu yuf vjf RMGbtk Yt. Lk RLJuMxbuLx fhJtle ;f ytvelu Yt. Lk Ctzwk buJe jtu. ytsftj yb'tJt'btk vhbulLx yuftWLx lkch=20 "thftubtk:e Nuhchbtk rzj fhlthtytu ;hV:e yt fthle ytpVh bJt btkze Au. vjf RMGbtk RLJuMx fhJt btxult ltKtk l ntug ;tu vK Nuhchlt su ;u Fujtzeytu VtEltLmle vK MrJ"t QCe fhe ytvu Au. gonbor jorwu writ-ten morwon mushim parlance mugon gonbor-orwu jorwu almostunbelievable giventheoverlycomplex=20 natureoftheprefixandsuffixsystemsemployed =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 14:40 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu (and please note it's http://www.asondheim.org/lungatar.mp4 - apologies) gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu jorwuthemugon, jorwuhgan jorwuarlddesmumjorwuarlmumjorwuarllmumjorwuan- guagesmugon, jorwuamumjorwueemumjorwupokenmugon, jorwuarlvemumjorwuwrit- tenmugon, jorwuusmumjorwuhimumugan jorwuarlncemugon, jorwuarlmumjorwuhgan jorwuermumjorwueamumjorwulawemumjorwurefimumugan jorwuarlnmumjorwusuffi- mumjorwuystemmumjorwuollapsemumjorwueneatmumjorwuhgan jorwueighmumjor- wuarlmumjorwuhgan jorwuimplesmumjorwubarltterancegun gonbor-orwufragmentgonbor-orwu bor-orwuthegangon bor-orwuonlygon bor-orwutimegangon bor-orwuthisgon bor-orwulanguagegangon bor-orwuhasgon bor-orwuevergon bor-orwu bor-orwubeengon bor-orwuusedgon bor-orwuingon bor-orwuangon bor-orwuutterancegangon bor-orwuingon bor-orwufactgon bor-orwuisgon bor-orwuthisgon bor-orwuoncegangon bor-orwu,gon bor-orwugivengon bor-orwuthegangon bor-orwuoverlygon bor-orwucomplexgon bor-orwu bor-orwunaturegangon bor-orwuofgon bor-orwuthegangon bor-orwuprefixgon bor-orwuandgon bor-orwugon bor-orwusuffixgon bor-orwusystemsgon bor-orwuemployedgon bor-orwu, bor-orwugon bor-orwuwhichgon bor-orwuaregangon bor-orwuingon bor-orwufactgon bor-orwu, bor-orwugon bor-orwuasgon bor-orwuwellgon bor-orwu, bor-orwugon bor-orwualmostgon bor-orwu bor-orwuunbelievablegangon bor-orwubor-orwu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:09:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Stigge Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline of particular interest are any textual studies discussing the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in no way crucial) Don't know how popular this has been, but Stanzas in Mediation is another interesting book in terms of textual variations--generally it's referred to as an alternate to The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (they were written at the same time), as if it were a more abstract, poetic version of the sam= e text, although it's also seen as a completely disassociated thought experiment. The word "may" was edited out between earlier and later manuscript versions, after Toklas found out about Stein's earlier relationship with May Bookstaver. -Rebecca On 12/4/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > hi all > > does anyone have eliot weinberger's current email address? many thanks if > you wd backchannel me w/ that. > > I am sorry for those of you to whom kari edwards was a friend. she was, i= t > seems, a brave, emotionally expressive and postmodern poet, from what i > have > read of her poetry. > > ulla dydo writes abt stein & time. > > ruth > > > On 12/4/06 4:04 PM, "Eireene Nealand" wrote: > > > wow! thank you david. that is plenty more than i knew. > > > > what books exactly are they where gertrude (or others) talk about the > > transformation of langauge by painting's new relationship to time (or > > whatever it is that they say)? lots of reading still to do on this. > > > > the main (favorite book) that i have read on this is Gleizes and > > Metzinger's "On Cubism" which has been important in trying to think > > about time through our little discussed human proprioceptive senses > > > > but my wee brain always falls off some sort of a cliff before I get > > back to proprioception and langauge (probably because I always try to > > go at it through Duchamp...& if anyone has any favorite works on him > > (and optics and eternal return) i'm hoping to get back to that paper > > again later too. > > > > and well i still advocate for whitehead, not to replace gertrude, but > > to help us think about writing in this process philosophy way. it is > > really good stuff in a way more helpful (for me anyhow) than the > > bergson that people always seem to cling to. but maybe i am missing > > something big about him? > > > > to more good discussions of all of this. > > > > eireene > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/3/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > >> in the autobiography of alice b. toklas, whitehead is one of the three > >> people that stein met and heard the bells that announced she was > meeting a > >> genius > >> > >> (so one imagines yes she read his work, too--he was ver ywell known i= n > that > >> time--his photo for example wd show up in vanity fair, etc--) > >> > >> it is interesting reading the responses to the query--i was thinking > how the > >> works cited for the much greater part are al those which related Stein > with > >> language poetry only, from that particular perspective-- > >> as though there had been no work on her previously--though there is > indeed > >> quite a lot-- > >> and from people writing from a great many perspectives, including many > >> important views from artists working in other media who learmed > from/worked > >> with Stein's work and her in person--and this beginning very early in > her > >> career--(the large correspondance with sherwood anderson for example, > of an > >> early one--) > >> > >> i am well aware of Stein's great effect on language poetry, beginning > with > >> robert grenier, who was teaching the yale stein at franconia college > ealry > >> 1970s--but at same time seems like limiting the worship of a goddess t= o > one > >> sect among a great many--and work on her limited to that begun with > just > >> one persepctive's interpretation of the canon-- > >> (thinking of this as humourous--so , please, not saying this to raise > ire) > >> then later on today on yahoo newspager saw a story that in kenya > >> fundamentalist christian sects pushing very hard on govt that when > museum > >> reopens, its world famous and one of most important exhibitions of > earliest > >> skeletons of hominds and homo sapiens--instead of being promiently > >> displayed, be removed and put away into back rooms--where only the > intrepid > >> wil follow after in the dimness to view them--that evolution is not > fact, > >> but only a theory-- > >> > >> i couldn't help laughing, as this seems the situation with gertrude > stein > >> here-- > >> there is no evolution in work on her work, or with her work-- > >> only a creation out of a vacuum--and all stein work begining from > >> there--that moment, and done by the members of that sect born of the > >> revelation of that moment--and their students, disciples, acolytes > etc-- > >> > >> a great deal can be learned directly from stein--she is very clear in > >> explaining her ideas--in her essays and compositions-- > >> she lays her major concerns very straight forwardly----objects, > landscapes, > >> geographies, the swifter and swfiter pasage of things being seen as > ugly to > >> theirbeing seen as beaitufl and accpeted into daily mas production > using > >> their images, ideas--etc-- > >> she also wrote a great deal about the influence of painting on her > >> work--that is very interesting--and crucial in the development of her > early > >> writing-- > >> again, from very ealryon stein was written abt a goo deal by other > writers > >> infouenced by her, influencing her, interested in her work and vice > >> cersa--and a great deal can be found in their coreespondance and > wirtings in > >> this reagrd still of great interest and use-- > >> > >> as wel as great deal that has been written on the interrelatednessness > of > >> stein's early work s esp in relation to painting, the wys painters wer= e > >> changng language in painting, and ways of seeing things in space and > how > >> this relates with time, space-time -- > >> > >> which is vey intersting and different from what is often the case, as > brion > >> gysin told willaim s burroughs--that writing lags fifty years behind > >> painting--if so, why then not be learning from painters, which is what > stein > >> was doing much of-- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" > >>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein > >>> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 > >>> > >>> Eireene, > >>> I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the Stein-Whitehead > >>> connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. All > I may > >>> do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close > Olson-Whitehead > >>> connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and has > been > >>> efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find evidence > of > >>> Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you working > on? I > >>> wish you could tell us some more. > >>> My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand =E0 eireene@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : > >>> > >>>> This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topi= c > >>>> of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy > research > >>>> into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that > >>>> that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or > >>>> cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as > >>>> "with tender patience leading..." > >>>> > >>>> I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit o= f > >>>> a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great > >>>> discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender > >>>> Buttons much more exciting for me. > >>>> > >>>> Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too > in > >>>> understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into > >>>> Cubist projects. > >>>> > >>>> but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about > this... > >>>> > >>>> eireene > >>>> > >>>> On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >>>>> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, > she > >>>>> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found > it > >>> very > >>>>> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I > >>> remember > >>>>> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a > >>> painter > >>>>> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! > >>>>> > >>>>> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - > gosh, > >>> how > >>>>> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war > monger's > >>>>> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) i= n > >>> town! > >>>>> > >>>>> Stephen V > >>>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, > Gertrude > >>> Stein: > >>>>>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about differen= t > >>>>>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Charles > >>>>>> > >>>>>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: > >>>>>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I > would > >>>>>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" > >>>>>>> Michael > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a > =E9crit > >>> : > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a > stringent > >>>>>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this > request, and > >>> relay > >>>>>>>> any responses > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> thanx ! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --mp > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> here is the multi part query; > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of = a > >>> hurry, > >>>>>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need > to > >>> make > >>>>>>>> up for lost time. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein > text > >>> that > >>>>>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the > last > >>>>>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies > >>> discussing > >>>>>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this > is > >>> in > >>>>>>>> no way crucial) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be > very > >>>>>>>> helpful. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> many thanks > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --->>> > - > >>>>>>> > >>>>> - > >>>>>>>> --------- > >>>>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par > l'anti-virus > >>> mail. > >>>>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> charles alexander / chax press > >>>>>> > >>>>>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always > >>>>>> read from the inside out speak then > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > >>> -- > >>>> --------- > >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus > >>> mail. > >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio > powered > >> by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:30:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <8485c0440612041409l4c9b6c56qdac24c0634784606@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable By the way, if you crave getting down into primary sources, the Alice B. Toklas archives are located in The Bancroft Library on the University of California campus. I have not personally looked at them, but they are open to the public and there for the serious dive. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > of particular interest are any textual studies discussing > the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in > no way crucial) >=20 > Don't know how popular this has been, but Stanzas in Mediation is another > interesting book in terms of textual variations--generally it's referred = to > as an alternate to The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (they were writte= n > at the same time), as if it were a more abstract, poetic version of the s= ame > text, although it's also seen as a completely disassociated thought > experiment. The word "may" was edited out between earlier and later > manuscript versions, after Toklas found out about Stein's earlier > relationship with May Bookstaver. >=20 > -Rebecca >=20 >=20 > On 12/4/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>=20 >> hi all >>=20 >> does anyone have eliot weinberger's current email address? many thanks i= f >> you wd backchannel me w/ that. >>=20 >> I am sorry for those of you to whom kari edwards was a friend. she was, = it >> seems, a brave, emotionally expressive and postmodern poet, from what i >> have >> read of her poetry. >>=20 >> ulla dydo writes abt stein & time. >>=20 >> ruth >>=20 >>=20 >> On 12/4/06 4:04 PM, "Eireene Nealand" wrote: >>=20 >>> wow! thank you david. that is plenty more than i knew. >>>=20 >>> what books exactly are they where gertrude (or others) talk about the >>> transformation of langauge by painting's new relationship to time (or >>> whatever it is that they say)? lots of reading still to do on this. >>>=20 >>> the main (favorite book) that i have read on this is Gleizes and >>> Metzinger's "On Cubism" which has been important in trying to think >>> about time through our little discussed human proprioceptive senses >>>=20 >>> but my wee brain always falls off some sort of a cliff before I get >>> back to proprioception and langauge (probably because I always try to >>> go at it through Duchamp...& if anyone has any favorite works on him >>> (and optics and eternal return) i'm hoping to get back to that paper >>> again later too. >>>=20 >>> and well i still advocate for whitehead, not to replace gertrude, but >>> to help us think about writing in this process philosophy way. it is >>> really good stuff in a way more helpful (for me anyhow) than the >>> bergson that people always seem to cling to. but maybe i am missing >>> something big about him? >>>=20 >>> to more good discussions of all of this. >>>=20 >>> eireene >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 12/3/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >>>> in the autobiography of alice b. toklas, whitehead is one of the three >>>> people that stein met and heard the bells that announced she was >> meeting a >>>> genius >>>>=20 >>>> (so one imagines yes she read his work, too--he was ver ywell known i= n >> that >>>> time--his photo for example wd show up in vanity fair, etc--) >>>>=20 >>>> it is interesting reading the responses to the query--i was thinking >> how the >>>> works cited for the much greater part are al those which related Stein >> with >>>> language poetry only, from that particular perspective-- >>>> as though there had been no work on her previously--though there is >> indeed >>>> quite a lot-- >>>> and from people writing from a great many perspectives, including many >>>> important views from artists working in other media who learmed >> from/worked >>>> with Stein's work and her in person--and this beginning very early in >> her >>>> career--(the large correspondance with sherwood anderson for example, >> of an >>>> early one--) >>>>=20 >>>> i am well aware of Stein's great effect on language poetry, beginning >> with >>>> robert grenier, who was teaching the yale stein at franconia college >> ealry >>>> 1970s--but at same time seems like limiting the worship of a goddess t= o >> one >>>> sect among a great many--and work on her limited to that begun with >> just >>>> one persepctive's interpretation of the canon-- >>>> (thinking of this as humourous--so , please, not saying this to raise >> ire) >>>> then later on today on yahoo newspager saw a story that in kenya >>>> fundamentalist christian sects pushing very hard on govt that when >> museum >>>> reopens, its world famous and one of most important exhibitions of >> earliest >>>> skeletons of hominds and homo sapiens--instead of being promiently >>>> displayed, be removed and put away into back rooms--where only the >> intrepid >>>> wil follow after in the dimness to view them--that evolution is not >> fact, >>>> but only a theory-- >>>>=20 >>>> i couldn't help laughing, as this seems the situation with gertrude >> stein >>>> here-- >>>> there is no evolution in work on her work, or with her work-- >>>> only a creation out of a vacuum--and all stein work begining from >>>> there--that moment, and done by the members of that sect born of the >>>> revelation of that moment--and their students, disciples, acolytes >> etc-- >>>>=20 >>>> a great deal can be learned directly from stein--she is very clear in >>>> explaining her ideas--in her essays and compositions-- >>>> she lays her major concerns very straight forwardly----objects, >> landscapes, >>>> geographies, the swifter and swfiter pasage of things being seen as >> ugly to >>>> theirbeing seen as beaitufl and accpeted into daily mas production >> using >>>> their images, ideas--etc-- >>>> she also wrote a great deal about the influence of painting on her >>>> work--that is very interesting--and crucial in the development of her >> early >>>> writing-- >>>> again, from very ealryon stein was written abt a goo deal by other >> writers >>>> infouenced by her, influencing her, interested in her work and vice >>>> cersa--and a great deal can be found in their coreespondance and >> wirtings in >>>> this reagrd still of great interest and use-- >>>>=20 >>>> as wel as great deal that has been written on the interrelatednessness >> of >>>> stein's early work s esp in relation to painting, the wys painters wer= e >>>> changng language in painting, and ways of seeing things in space and >> how >>>> this relates with time, space-time -- >>>>=20 >>>> which is vey intersting and different from what is often the case, as >> brion >>>> gysin told willaim s burroughs--that writing lags fifty years behind >>>> painting--if so, why then not be learning from painters, which is what >> stein >>>> was doing much of-- >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" >>>>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>> Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein >>>>> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Eireene, >>>>> I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the Stein-Whitehead >>>>> connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. All >> I may >>>>> do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close >> Olson-Whitehead >>>>> connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and has >> been >>>>> efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find evidence >> of >>>>> Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you working >> on? I >>>>> wish you could tell us some more. >>>>> My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... >>>>> Michael >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand =E0 eireene@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : >>>>>=20 >>>>>> This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the topi= c >>>>>> of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy >> research >>>>>> into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought that >>>>>> that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or >>>>>> cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d as >>>>>> "with tender patience leading..." >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a bit o= f >>>>>> a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some great >>>>>> discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading Tender >>>>>> Buttons much more exciting for me. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly too >> in >>>>>> understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes into >>>>>> Cubist projects. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about >> this... >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> eireene >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: >>>>>>> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of Inquiry, >> she >>>>>>> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I found >> it >>>>> very >>>>>>> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I >>>>> remember >>>>>>> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to a >>>>> painter >>>>>>> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - >> gosh, >>>>> how >>>>>>> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war >> monger's >>>>>>> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' (evidence) i= n >>>>> town! >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Stephen V >>>>>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, >> Gertrude >>>>> Stein: >>>>>>>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about differen= t >>>>>>>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Charles >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: >>>>>>>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I >> would >>>>>>>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" >>>>>>>>> Michael >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a >> =E9crit >>>>> : >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a >> stringent >>>>>>>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this >> request, and >>>>> relay >>>>>>>>>> any responses >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> thanx ! >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> --mp >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^ >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> here is the multi part query; >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something of = a >>>>> hurry, >>>>>>>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now need >> to >>>>> make >>>>>>>>>> up for lost time. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single stein >> text >>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in the >> last >>>>>>>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies >>>>> discussing >>>>>>>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this >> is >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> no way crucial) >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would be >> very >>>>>>>>>> helpful. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> many thanks >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----> >> >> >> - >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> --------- >>>>>>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par >> l'anti-virus >>>>> mail. >>>>>>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> charles alexander / chax press >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always >>>>>>>> read from the inside out speak then >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>>> -- >>>>>> --------- >>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus >>>>> mail. >>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio >> powered >>>> by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>>>=20 >>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:55:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: donna Subject: condolences Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed My condolences as well . donna kuhn http://digitalaardvarks.blogspot.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnakuhn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:58:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Feminist Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Feminist Review believes that all opinions - positive and critical - are valuable and seeks to give voice to communities that remain on the margins. Our mission is to write reviews from feminist perspectives to explore the world through an anti-oppression lens. We recognize that there are many feminisms and provide a space where those differences can be represented and explored. Visit us at http://feministreview.org SEND ITEMS FOR REVIEW The Feminist Review accepts all items for review including books, music, films, crafts, clothing, assessories, and other products. Please send items to: Feminist Review 955 Metropolitan Avenue Suite 4R Brooklyn, NY 11211 WRITE FOR US! If you'd like to write reviews for the Feminist Review, send an email to info@feministreview.org. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 19:07:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein In-Reply-To: <8485c0440612041409l4c9b6c56qdac24c0634784606@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable As I recall, Ulla Dydo's original article on the text of Stanzas in Meditation is a little more detailed than her remarks in her wonderful = book. Wendy Steiner's Exact Resemblance to Exact Resemblance (Yale 1978) has = SOME discussion of textual differences, but Dydo's work is absolutely = standard. It does not, of course cover the whole of Stein's career. Her anthology = of Stein -- A GS Reader -- presents texts carefully edited from the MS. If = you want to compare those to the usually corrupt published versions (in the = Yale multi-volume Stein and elsewhere), go ahead, but it seems pretty = poiuntless to duplicate work that's alreadty been done. There are lots of MSS at = Yale that have yet to be properly transcribed and edited. I would think Patriarchal Poetry might be prime candidate for fjurther work here, also Lifting Belly. There is NO manuscript of Tender Buttons extant -- I = suspect Donald Evans of Sweet Marie destroyed it after publishing the book = (standard practice then). Peter=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver BC Canada V6A 1Y7 604 255 8274 (voice) 604 255 8204 fax quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Rebecca Stigge Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:10 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein of particular interest are any textual studies discussing the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but this is in no way crucial) Don't know how popular this has been, but Stanzas in Mediation is = another interesting book in terms of textual variations--generally it's referred = to as an alternate to The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (they were = written at the same time), as if it were a more abstract, poetic version of the = same text, although it's also seen as a completely disassociated thought experiment. The word "may" was edited out between earlier and later manuscript versions, after Toklas found out about Stein's earlier relationship with May Bookstaver. -Rebecca On 12/4/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > hi all > > does anyone have eliot weinberger's current email address? many thanks = if > you wd backchannel me w/ that. > > I am sorry for those of you to whom kari edwards was a friend. she = was, it > seems, a brave, emotionally expressive and postmodern poet, from what = i > have > read of her poetry. > > ulla dydo writes abt stein & time. > > ruth > > > On 12/4/06 4:04 PM, "Eireene Nealand" wrote: > > > wow! thank you david. that is plenty more than i knew. > > > > what books exactly are they where gertrude (or others) talk about = the > > transformation of langauge by painting's new relationship to time = (or > > whatever it is that they say)? lots of reading still to do on this. > > > > the main (favorite book) that i have read on this is Gleizes and > > Metzinger's "On Cubism" which has been important in trying to think > > about time through our little discussed human proprioceptive senses > > > > but my wee brain always falls off some sort of a cliff before I get > > back to proprioception and langauge (probably because I always try = to > > go at it through Duchamp...& if anyone has any favorite works on him > > (and optics and eternal return) i'm hoping to get back to that paper > > again later too. > > > > and well i still advocate for whitehead, not to replace gertrude, = but > > to help us think about writing in this process philosophy way. it is > > really good stuff in a way more helpful (for me anyhow) than the > > bergson that people always seem to cling to. but maybe i am missing > > something big about him? > > > > to more good discussions of all of this. > > > > eireene > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/3/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > >> in the autobiography of alice b. toklas, whitehead is one of the = three > >> people that stein met and heard the bells that announced she was > meeting a > >> genius > >> > >> (so one imagines yes she read his work, too--he was ver ywell known = in > that > >> time--his photo for example wd show up in vanity fair, etc--) > >> > >> it is interesting reading the responses to the query--i was = thinking > how the > >> works cited for the much greater part are al those which related = Stein > with > >> language poetry only, from that particular perspective-- > >> as though there had been no work on her previously--though there is > indeed > >> quite a lot-- > >> and from people writing from a great many perspectives, including = many > >> important views from artists working in other media who learmed > from/worked > >> with Stein's work and her in person--and this beginning very early = in > her > >> career--(the large correspondance with sherwood anderson for = example, > of an > >> early one--) > >> > >> i am well aware of Stein's great effect on language poetry, = beginning > with > >> robert grenier, who was teaching the yale stein at franconia = college > ealry > >> 1970s--but at same time seems like limiting the worship of a = goddess to > one > >> sect among a great many--and work on her limited to that begun = with > just > >> one persepctive's interpretation of the canon-- > >> (thinking of this as humourous--so , please, not saying this to = raise > ire) > >> then later on today on yahoo newspager saw a story that in kenya > >> fundamentalist christian sects pushing very hard on govt that when > museum > >> reopens, its world famous and one of most important exhibitions of > earliest > >> skeletons of hominds and homo sapiens--instead of being promiently > >> displayed, be removed and put away into back rooms--where only the > intrepid > >> wil follow after in the dimness to view them--that evolution is not > fact, > >> but only a theory-- > >> > >> i couldn't help laughing, as this seems the situation with gertrude > stein > >> here-- > >> there is no evolution in work on her work, or with her work-- > >> only a creation out of a vacuum--and all stein work begining from > >> there--that moment, and done by the members of that sect born of = the > >> revelation of that moment--and their students, disciples, acolytes > etc-- > >> > >> a great deal can be learned directly from stein--she is very clear = in > >> explaining her ideas--in her essays and compositions-- > >> she lays her major concerns very straight forwardly----objects, > landscapes, > >> geographies, the swifter and swfiter pasage of things being seen as > ugly to > >> theirbeing seen as beaitufl and accpeted into daily mas production > using > >> their images, ideas--etc-- > >> she also wrote a great deal about the influence of painting on her > >> work--that is very interesting--and crucial in the development of = her > early > >> writing-- > >> again, from very ealryon stein was written abt a goo deal by other > writers > >> infouenced by her, influencing her, interested in her work and vice > >> cersa--and a great deal can be found in their coreespondance and > wirtings in > >> this reagrd still of great interest and use-- > >> > >> as wel as great deal that has been written on the = interrelatednessness > of > >> stein's early work s esp in relation to painting, the wys painters = were > >> changng language in painting, and ways of seeing things in space = and > how > >> this relates with time, space-time -- > >> > >> which is vey intersting and different from what is often the case, = as > brion > >> gysin told willaim s burroughs--that writing lags fifty years = behind > >> painting--if so, why then not be learning from painters, which is = what > stein > >> was doing much of-- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" > >>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group = > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re :Re :urgent query on Stein > >>> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:24:55 +0100 > >>> > >>> Eireene, > >>> I don't feel qualified to agree or disagree with the = Stein-Whitehead > >>> connection. I'm more at ease to agree entirely with you on James. = All > I may > >>> do is show extreme interest in your hypothesis. The close > Olson-Whitehead > >>> connection is textually explicit (in Maximus and in letters) and = has > been > >>> efficiently explored by Shahar Bram. Did you manage to find = evidence > of > >>> Stein's reading of Whitehead? Or on which parallels are you = working > on? I > >>> wish you could tell us some more. > >>> My ears can endure that much for the benefit of my brain.... > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> le 3/12/06 21:37, Eireene Nealand =E0 eireene@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit = : > >>> > >>>> This is not something for a quick reasearch paper but since the = topic > >>>> of Stein is out--i just thought that i'd mention my own nerdy > research > >>>> into Stein and Whitehead--one main part of it being a thought = that > >>>> that the phrase: "Tender Buttons" was partially referring to (or > >>>> cripped) from Whitehead's religous writings which speaks of G-d = as > >>>> "with tender patience leading..." > >>>> > >>>> I'd love to hear agreements or disagreements about this it's a = bit of > >>>> a "hallucinated connection" still but Whitehead does have some = great > >>>> discussions of occasions and ingredients which make reading = Tender > >>>> Buttons much more exciting for me. > >>>> > >>>> Reading William Jame's Principles of Psychology helps amazingly = too > in > >>>> understanding the far-from-simple intervention that Stein makes = into > >>>> Cubist projects. > >>>> > >>>> but i could talk everyone's ears off for a very long time about > this... > >>>> > >>>> eireene > >>>> > >>>> On 12/2/06, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >>>>> In Lyn Hejinian's book of critical essays, The Language of = Inquiry, > she > >>>>> writes considerable on Stein's work and language practice. I = found > it > >>> very > >>>>> readable and helpful to a reading of Stein - particularly, if I > >>> remember > >>>>> right, Stein's way of making paragraphs and correlating that to = a > >>> painter > >>>>> working on a canvas, cubists, sans doute! > >>>>> > >>>>> A very worthwhile book in its on write/right/(UC Press, 2000) - > gosh, > >>> how > >>>>> time flies (or freezes) that was back at the start of this war > monger's > >>>>> palace. Detritus, it seems, has become the only 'game' = (evidence) in > >>> town! > >>>>> > >>>>> Stephen V > >>>>> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> And make sure you have a look at Ulla Dydo's terrific book, > Gertrude > >>> Stein: > >>>>>> The Language That Rises. She has a good deal to say about = different > >>>>>> versions of particular pieces by Stein that she covers. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Charles > >>>>>> > >>>>>> At 11:36 AM 12/2/2006, you wrote: > >>>>>>> Considering the crucial impact of Stein on Language-Writing, I > would > >>>>>>> immediately pick up "Tender Buttons" > >>>>>>> Michael > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> le 2/12/06 19:24, Mark Prejsnar =E0 = m.prejsnar@WORLDNET.ATT.NET a > =E9crit > >>> : > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a friend of mine is working on a research project under a > stringent > >>>>>>>> deadline ... i 've said that i would pass on this > request, and > >>> relay > >>>>>>>> any responses > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> thanx ! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --mp > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ^^^^^^^^ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> here is the multi part query; > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to any Stein fans & scholars > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> i need to complete a project on Stein criticism in something = of a > >>> hurry, > >>>>>>>> i had another subject (Pound) but had to drop that and now = need > to > >>> make > >>>>>>>> up for lost time. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1st, i need any thoughts or suggestions about any single = stein > text > >>> that > >>>>>>>> has received a significant amount of scholarly attention in = the > last > >>>>>>>> 10-15 years. of particular interest are any textual studies > >>> discussing > >>>>>>>> the work's publication history or variant versions etc (but = this > is > >>> in > >>>>>>>> no way crucial) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2nd, any references to the scholarly work on the text would = be > very > >>>>>>>> helpful. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> many thanks > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>> > - > >>>>>>> > >>>>> - > >>>>>>>> --------- > >>>>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par > l'anti-virus > >>> mail. > >>>>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> charles alexander / chax press > >>>>>> > >>>>>> fold the book inside the book keep it open always > >>>>>> read from the inside out speak then > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > >>> -- > >>>> --------- > >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par = l'anti-virus > >>> mail. > >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio > powered > >> by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: CARFUCKNUMBERBOY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; 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(PRINT WORLD))) a APPEND: C is list - - D) - list B FOOFWA list - C - D) APPEND: FOOFWA B WORLD))) C APPEND: not a is C - is list - B D) is is APPEND: C is not list not is - list list list - C APPEND: list is is D) a not is FOOFWA APPEND: D) list FOOFWA a list FOOFWA FOOFWA list list not not - is a list APPEND: not is list is APPEND: list is not is list list is not a list list FOOFWA list list not a is not list FOOFWA is not a list ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 06:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: clwnwr@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Heman Subject: three of my literary cutouts are currently displayed (and on sale) at Proteus Gowanus Comments: To: Alex , Allen Brafman , Amy Marie Bucciferro , Baz , "Bill (home)" , Bill Duke , Bill Zavatsky , Bob Holman , Brant Lyon , Brian Boyles , Brian Clements , Bruce Weber , Carol Novack , Carole Marchese , Carole Wheatley , Carrie Beehan , Craig Czury , Daniel Bourne , daniela , Daryl Lang , Dave Brinks , David Elsasser , David Giannini , "Deborah Fries (Fusion Arts Museum)" , dezichick1 , donb , "Dorothy F. August" , "Ed (Earthlink)" , "Ed (work)" , Elizabeth , Elizabeth Smith , Eugene Ring , Evie Ivy , fanettelbeck , fanettelbeck , Francine Witte , Frank Simone , Gabor , George Held , Gian Lombardo , Hal Johnson , Hal Sirowitz , Ice , Irina Peris , Iris Schwartz , Jackie Sheeler , Jane Ormerod , Jay Chollick , Jean Lehrman , Jeff Wright , Jennifer Cande , Jerome Rothenberg , Joanne Pagano Weber , "Joel Dailey (Fell Swoop)" , johannesgoransson , John Allan Holt , John Levy , Jon Geffner , Jonah , Judy Kamilhor , Justin Taylor , Katrina Barnas , Kenneth Beinert , Larissa Shmailo , leechapman , Leigh Harrison , Leonard Gontarek , liza wolsky , Maddy Rosenberg , Madeline Artenberg , MAndreOx , Maria , Marie Sabatino , Martha , Mary Jane Tenerelli , Maryalice , Matthew Deleget , Matvei , Michael Kasper , mike graves , Mindy , Miriam Stanley , Mitch Corber , Mitch Highfill , Nakamura Takako , Nelson Alxndr , Nick Patti , "Nina M." , Paragraph , Patricia Sonego , pattiekake , Paul Pines , Pete Dolack , Peter Cherches , Peter Kernz , Philip Rowland , PoetMex , Quincy Lehr , "R. Nemo Hill" , Ray Pospisil , Richard Loranger , RichKostelanetz , Robert Heman , Rochelle Ratner , Ron Silliman , "Roxanne Hoffman (Yahoo)" , Roy Arenella , Sara Beinert , Sara Caldiero , sarah sarai , selby32 , Shalom , Sharon Olinka , Sparrow Sparrow , Star Black , Su Polo , susan maurer , Thad Rutkowski , Thomas Fucaloro , tom oleszczuk , Tom Savage , Ugly Duckling Presse , Vyt Bakaitis , William Hohauser , Yuko & Steve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi folks - if you follow the link below to Proteus Gowanus and click on my name in the column on the left you'll find three of my older literary cutouts that are currently included in The Artistsbook Library in conjunction with the "Library" exhibit at Proteus Gowanus http://proteusgowanus.com/storeindex.html i'm sending this because i know there are many of you who have never seen my cutouts (which i am starting work on again after a long hiatus) be well, Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 07:46:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Call for a cultural boycott of Israel (fr John Berger, Elia Suleiman,S. Rose In-Reply-To: <423897.48720.qm@web57215.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Note: This is an international peaceful call, among the originators are many Israeli teachers and cultural workers, dissidents and public figures. It's a call for human rights for all, not against those of anyone or wouldn't forward this. As with the boycott of Apartheid South Africa, boycott as protest against policies and institutions which support them, not against persons, a people, a nation. again, wd not fwd this if thought the latter- david-bc (see John Berger's letter below for cases in which he wd make exceptions for example) From: Steven Rose [mailto:S.P.R.Rose@open.ac.uk] >Subject: FW: Call for a cultural boycott of Israel > >Dear all >Please distribute the call below plus enclosures (with discrimination) to >writers, artists, film makers, musicians and other culture workers amongst >your friends who might be appropriate, urging them to sign John Berger's >appeal, and to return their agreement to sign to me. > >Please note that until we have a substantial list of signatures there is an >embargo on publication. > >Steven > >There follows the call for a cultural boycott of Israel, > >---- >Dear friends; > >John Berger, Eduardo Galeano, Elia Suleiman and I (Steven Rose) are >circulating this letter to you, calling on artists, writers, film-makers >and >other culture workers to support the call of their Palestinian colleagues >for a cultural boycott of Israel. We hope that you will add your signature >to it. John's personal addendum to the letter is also copied below. We >hope >to collect enough signatures over the coming few days to publish the letter >in the London Guardian and other >newspapers across Europe. > >If you are willing to sign, please respond directly to me at >s.p.r.rose@open.ac.uk > >For publication. > >There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israeli >overflights. Meanwhile the day to day brutality of the Israeli army in Gaza >and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Israeli >death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed over the >summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinian >land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish (former ANC military commander presently >South African minister of security), Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid. >Meantime Western governments refer to Israel1s OElegitimate right1 of >self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. > >The challenge of apartheid was fought better. The non-violent international >response to apartheid was a campaign of boycott, divestment, and, finally >UN >imposed sanctions which enabled the regime to change without terrible >bloodshed. Today Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and >non-governmental organisations have called for a comparable academic and >cultural boycott of Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This >call has been endorsed internationally by university teachers in many >European countries, by film-makers and architects, and by some brave >Israeli >dissidents. It is now time for others to join the campaign as Primo Levy >asked: If not now, when? > >We call on creative writers and artists to support our Palestinian and >Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read the Palestinian call >(www.pacbi.org). > >John Berger >Eduardo Galeano >Elia Suleiman > >Steven Rose, Secretary >British Committee for the Universities of Palestine >You can find more detail of the campaign on our website: >www.bricup,.org.uk > >Please reply to Steven Rose at S.P.R.Rose@open.ac.uk > > > > >From John Berger: > > I would like to make a few personal remarks about this world-wide >appeal >to teachers, intellectuals and artists to join the cultural boycott of the >state of Israel, as called for by over a hundred Palestinian academics and >artists, and - very importantly - also by a number of Israeli public >figures, who outspokenly oppose their country1s illegal occupation of the >Palestine territories of the West Bank and Gaza. Their call is attached, >together with my OEAfter Guernica2 drawing. I hope you will feel able to >add >your signature, to the attached letter, which we intend to publish in >national newspapers. > The boycott is an active protest against two forms of exclusion which >have persisted, despite many other forms of protestations, for over sixty >years - for almost three generations. >During this period the state of Israel has consistently excluded itself >from any international obligation to heed UN resolutions or the judgement >of >any international court. To date, it has defied 246 Security Council >Resolutions! >As a direct consequence seven million Palestinians have been excluded >from the right to live as they wish on land internationally acknowledged to >be theirs; and now increasingly, with every week that passes, they are >being excluded from their right to any future at all as a nation. >As Nelson Mandela has pointed out, boycott is not a principle, it is a >tactic depending upon circumstances. A tactic which allows people, as >distinct from their elected but often craven governments, to apply a >certain >pressure on those wielding power in what they, the boycotters, consider to >be an unjust or immoral way. (In white South Africa yesterday and in Israel >today, the immorality was, or is being, coded into a form of racist >apartheid.) >Boycott is not a principle. When it becomes one, it itself risks to >become exclusive and racist. No boycott, in our sense of the term, should >be directed against an individual, a people, or a nation as such. A boycott >is directed against a policy and the institutions which support that policy >either actively or tacitly. Its aim is not to reject, but to bring about >change. >How to apply a cultural boycott? A boycott of goods is a simpler >proposition, but in this case it would probably be less effective, and >speed >is of the essence, because the situation is deteriorating every month >(which >is precisely why some of the most powerful world political leaders, hoping >for the worst, keep silent.). >How to apply a boycott? For academics it1s perhaps a little clearer - a >question of declining invitations from state institutions and explaining >why. For invited actors, musicians, jugglers or poets it can be more >complicated. I1m convinced, in any case, that its application should not be >systematised; it has to come from a personal choice based on a personal >assessment. >For instance. An important mainstream Israeli publisher today is asking >to publish thre of my books. I intend to apply the boycott with an >explanation. There exist, however, a few small, marginal Israeli publishers >who expressly work to encourage exchanges and bridges between Arabs and >Israelis, and if one of them should ask to publish something of mine, I >would unhesitatingly agree and furthermore waive aside any question of >author1s royalties. I don1t ask other writers supporting the boycott to >come necessarily to exactly the same conclusion. I simply offer an example. > >What is important is that we make our chosen protests together, and that >we speak out, thus breaking the silence of connivance maintained by those >who claim to represent us, and thus ourselves representing, briefly by our >common action, the incalculable number of people who have been appalled by >recent events but lack the opportunity of making their sense of outrage >effective. > >John Berger > >_________________________________________________________________ >Not only does WindowsOff to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows >Live >(MSN) Messenger lets you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you >go. Click here to find out how to sign up! Live™ OneCare™ provide >all-in-one PC care to keep your computer protected and well-maintained, but >it also makes creating backup files a breeze. Try it today! >http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/ > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/whalesnail/ > ><*> Your email settings: > Individual Email | Traditional > ><*> To change settings online go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/whalesnail/join > (Yahoo! ID required) > ><*> To change settings via email: > mailto:whalesnail-digest@yahoogroups.com > mailto:whalesnail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > whalesnail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 09:29:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: new years day reading at bowery poetry club, nyc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed you may already know of the reading at bowery poetry club in nyc on new years day starting at 2pm and going until midnightish . i will be on sometime after 10pm. come on down . susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:29:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Brenda Hillman Interview - Part 1 In-Reply-To: <20061205005850.11580.qmail@web31010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Stobb, miPOradio correspondent, recently drove a good distance to interview Brenda Hillman. Click here and scroll down for part one of the interview & a great photo of her to boot: http://www.miporadio.net/WILLIAM_E_STOBB/ FROM BILL: Hey y’all, Quick note to say I’ve put together a first “Hard to Say” segment from my interview w/ Brenda Hillman. You’ve got to hear her talk about the composing process—“like a little bee in a meadow, or in Macy’s,” I think she said. I’ll put together at least one more segment from the interview, so stay tuned for that. The link to the miPOradio.net page is below. Hope you’re all doing well. Best, Bill William Stobb miPOradio:http://www.miporadio.net/WILLIAM_E_STOBB/ --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:15:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Back when I was a kid in the mid eighties, I used to love playing those old Infocom text adventure games. You know the ones, where there'd be a paragraph of a story and then the next paragraph of the story would depend on what you typed in at a command prompt. Anyway, I just found out about this Interactive Fiction (which is apparently what text adventures are called now) programming language called Inform 7 which is in beta now and which is coded in a language that looks a lot like Natural English. I've been playing around with the beta of the software, and it's been a lot of fun. I was curious if anyone on the list had experimented at all with using tools like that to create works of interactive poetry, or if anyone was aware of any good work online that used the Interactive Fiction framework. Any thoughts? What would a Poetics of Interactive Fiction/Interactive Poetry look like? One of the things that's occurred to me playing with it is the level of sophistication in the interaction between verbs and nouns is really at the heart of how these things have changed since i spent hours trying to get through the airlock in Rendezvous with Rama. It strikes me that there is a lot of interest there to be harnessed and exploited by a clever poet. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:36:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Baldwin Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jason: You might look at Nick Montfort's _Twisty Little Paths_ (http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=10509), which offers the crucial history of IF and the start of a poetics. Sandy >>> Jason Quackenbush 12/5/2006 1:15:30 PM >>> Back when I was a kid in the mid eighties, I used to love playing those old Infocom text adventure games. You know the ones, where there'd be a paragraph of a story and then the next paragraph of the story would depend on what you typed in at a command prompt. Anyway, I just found out about this Interactive Fiction (which is apparently what text adventures are called now) programming language called Inform 7 which is in beta now and which is coded in a language that looks a lot like Natural English. I've been playing around with the beta of the software, and it's been a lot of fun. I was curious if anyone on the list had experimented at all with using tools like that to create works of interactive poetry, or if anyone was aware of any good work online that used the Interactive Fiction framework. Any thoughts? What would a Poetics of Interactive Fiction/Interactive Poetry look like? One of the things that's occurred to me playing with it is the level of sophistication in the interaction between verbs and nouns is really at the heart of how these things have changed since i spent hours trying to get through the airlock in Rendezvous with Rama. It strikes me that there is a lot of interest there to be harnessed and exploited by a clever poet. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:37:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This question of the interaction between verbs (but not phrasal verbs, I guess) and nouns is very interesting. Other linguistic peculiarities of interest in your experience? Could you give a few examples? --Michael A. Soubbotnik Universit=E9 de Marne-la-Vall=E9e le 5/12/06 19:15, Jason Quackenbush =E0 jfq@MYUW.NET a =E9crit=A0: > Back when I was a kid in the mid eighties, I used to love playing those o= ld > Infocom text adventure games. You know the ones, where there'd be a parag= raph > of a story and then the next paragraph of the story would depend on what = you > typed in at a command prompt. >=20 > Anyway, I just found out about this Interactive Fiction (which is apparen= tly > what text adventures are called now) programming language called Inform 7 > which is in beta now and which is coded in a language that looks a lot li= ke > Natural English. I've been playing around with the beta of the software, = and > it's been a lot of fun. I was curious if anyone on the list had experimen= ted > at all with using tools like that to create works of interactive poetry, = or if > anyone was aware of any good work online that used the Interactive Fictio= n > framework. >=20 > Any thoughts? What would a Poetics of Interactive Fiction/Interactive Poe= try > look like? >=20 > One of the things that's occurred to me playing with it is the level of > sophistication in the interaction between verbs and nouns is really at th= e > heart of how these things have changed since i spent hours trying to get > through the airlock in Rendezvous with Rama. It strikes me that there is = a lot > of interest there to be harnessed and exploited by a clever poet. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 13:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Can you give the URL of this and other details? Thanks, Alan On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Back when I was a kid in the mid eighties, I used to love playing those old > Infocom text adventure games. You know the ones, where there'd be a paragraph > of a story and then the next paragraph of the story would depend on what you > typed in at a command prompt. > > Anyway, I just found out about this Interactive Fiction (which is apparently > what text adventures are called now) programming language called Inform 7 > which is in beta now and which is coded in a language that looks a lot like > Natural English. I've been playing around with the beta of the software, and > it's been a lot of fun. I was curious if anyone on the list had experimented > at all with using tools like that to create works of interactive poetry, or > if anyone was aware of any good work online that used the Interactive Fiction > framework. > > Any thoughts? What would a Poetics of Interactive Fiction/Interactive Poetry > look like? > > One of the things that's occurred to me playing with it is the level of > sophistication in the interaction between verbs and nouns is really at the > heart of how these things have changed since i spent hours trying to get > through the airlock in Rendezvous with Rama. It strikes me that there is a > lot of interest there to be harnessed and exploited by a clever poet. > > blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com - for URLs, DVDs, CDs, books/etc. see http://www.asondheim.org/advert.txt - contact sondheim@panix.com, - general directory of work: http://www.asondheim.org Trace at: http://tracearchive.ntu.ac.uk - search "Alan Sondheim" http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:56:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Re :Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE One thing that's also interesting is that at least traditionally the pragma= tics of verbs has been very strictly limited in Interactive fiction. Becaus= e the software logic is looking for very specific words to trigger events, = it's often been the case that the software user might have to rephrase the = same statement several times until they get precisely the formulation of th= e sentence that the software needs to move on to the next event. I remember in particular a game called "cutthroats" that involved scuba div= ing and smuggling wherein there was a locked door and a rusty key that need= ed to be cleaned with some steel wool before the key would work in the lock= =2E There was a very specific sentence that had to be entered in order to c= lean the key, and i remember a great deal of frustration trying to get it t= o work. One unique aspect of the experience though was that when I did fina= lly land on the right sentence, there was a great deal of aesthetic satisfa= ction that I got from it. So I guess in addition, there's an element of for= cing the reader, for lack of a better term, to actually create elements of = the text. in order for the text to proceed. I imagine there's a great deal = of room for experimentation in the specificity of those elements and using = them to create interesting and novel phrases. On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK wrote: > This question of the interaction between verbs (but not phrasal verbs, I > guess) and nouns is very interesting. Other linguistic peculiarities of > interest in your experience? Could you give a few examples? > > --Michael A. Soubbotnik > Universit=E9 de Marne-la-Vall=E9e > > > le 5/12/06 19:15, Jason Quackenbush =E0 jfq@MYUW.NET a =E9crit=A0: > >> Back when I was a kid in the mid eighties, I used to love playing those = old >> Infocom text adventure games. You know the ones, where there'd be a para= graph >> of a story and then the next paragraph of the story would depend on what= you >> typed in at a command prompt. >> >> Anyway, I just found out about this Interactive Fiction (which is appare= ntly >> what text adventures are called now) programming language called Inform = 7 >> which is in beta now and which is coded in a language that looks a lot l= ike >> Natural English. I've been playing around with the beta of the software,= and >> it's been a lot of fun. I was curious if anyone on the list had experime= nted >> at all with using tools like that to create works of interactive poetry,= or if >> anyone was aware of any good work online that used the Interactive Ficti= on >> framework. >> >> Any thoughts? What would a Poetics of Interactive Fiction/Interactive Po= etry >> look like? >> >> One of the things that's occurred to me playing with it is the level of >> sophistication in the interaction between verbs and nouns is really at t= he >> heart of how these things have changed since i spent hours trying to get >> through the airlock in Rendezvous with Rama. It strikes me that there is= a lot >> of interest there to be harnessed and exploited by a clever poet. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> --------- >> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail= =2E >> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >> >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 23:07:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline google is your friend here, al. On 12/5/06, Alan Sondheim wrote: > Can you give the URL of this and other details? > > Thanks, Alan > > > On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > Back when I was a kid in the mid eighties, I used to love playing those old > > Infocom text adventure games. You know the ones, where there'd be a paragraph > > of a story and then the next paragraph of the story would depend on what you > > typed in at a command prompt. > > > > Anyway, I just found out about this Interactive Fiction (which is apparently > > what text adventures are called now) programming language called Inform 7 > > which is in beta now and which is coded in a language that looks a lot like > > Natural English. I've been playing around with the beta of the software, and > > it's been a lot of fun. I was curious if anyone on the list had experimented > > at all with using tools like that to create works of interactive poetry, or > > if anyone was aware of any good work online that used the Interactive Fiction > > framework. > > > > Any thoughts? What would a Poetics of Interactive Fiction/Interactive Poetry > > look like? > > > > One of the things that's occurred to me playing with it is the level of > > sophistication in the interaction between verbs and nouns is really at the > > heart of how these things have changed since i spent hours trying to get > > through the airlock in Rendezvous with Rama. It strikes me that there is a > > lot of interest there to be harnessed and exploited by a clever poet. > > > > > > blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com - for URLs, DVDs, CDs, books/etc. see > http://www.asondheim.org/advert.txt - contact sondheim@panix.com, - > general directory of work: http://www.asondheim.org > Trace at: http://tracearchive.ntu.ac.uk - search "Alan Sondheim" > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 23:08:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: CARFUCKNUMBERBOY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline and lisp was such a beatiful language as well ... tell me, is this CommonLisp? On 12/5/06, Alan Sondheim wrote: > CARFUCKNUMBERBOY > > (SETQ GIRL 'BOY) BOY > (SETQ BOY 'GIRL) GIRL > (LIST '(BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) ((BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) > (SETQ FUCK '(BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) (BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY) > (FUCK) *** - EVAL: undefined function FUCK > (LIST FUCK) ((BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) > (CDR FUCK) (BOY GIRL GIRL BOY) > (CAR FUCK) BOY > *** - +: GIRL is not a number > > CLASP DANSE > > list list APPEND: - 'MAUD) is list list - list *** FOOFWA not FOOFWA MAUD > is list is APPEND: MAUD MAUD A not list not list list is not not FOOFWA > list A FOOFWA B MAUD APPEND: *** 'MAUD) B C - APPEND: is C is FOOFWA > 'MAUD) 'MAUD) not A list 'MAUD) FOOFWA MAUD is C (SETQ - list B 'FOOFWA) A > (SETQ - not 'FOOFWA) not B 'MAUD) (SETQ A (SETQ 'FOOFWA) not MAUD B (SETQ > MAUD is FOOFWA (SETQ not B MAUD C not C B B C (SETQ list MAUD (SETQ MAUD > is B not (SETQ (SETQ 'FOOFWA) list C (SETQ 'FOOFWA) B C A list AZURE > 'FOOFWA) MAUD C MAUD 'FOOFWA) C (SETQ 'FOOFWA) 'FOOFWA) (SETQ A ALAN list > 'FOOFWA) list C (SETQ list (SETQ (SETQ AZURE ALAN A (SETQ (SETQ (SETQ > (SETQ 'ALAN) AZURE list (SETQ A A (SETQ (SETQ B AZURE A A C (SETQ list > 'ALAN) '(A 'ALAN) 'FOOFWA) (SETQ (SETQ '(A '(A (SETQ list ALAN B FOOFWA B > ALAN AZURE 'ALAN) FOOFWA FOOFWA ALAN ALAN (SETQ AZURE B) '(A (SETQ A > 'ALAN) (APPEND (SETQ 'MAUD) A 'MAUD) B) (SETQ FOOFWA ALAN ALAN FOOFWA C > (SETQ B ALAN 'ALAN) (SETQ '(A (SETQ 'MAUD) A (APPEND D C '(A A FOOFWA D)) > 'MAUD) (APPEND 'ALAN) '(A C ALAN D)) FOOFWA '(A (APPEND MAUD ALAN (SETQ > AZURE (SETQ D B) 'MAUD) B) FOOFWA C 'AZURE) 'AZURE) '(A (SETQ (SETQ (A > (SETQ ALAN (SETQ (APPEND 'MAUD) (A (SETQ D (APPEND '(A 'MAUD) ALAN B) C C > (A (SETQ B MAUD C MAUD B B) 'MAUD) D D (SETQ D) (SETQ (A D B) B) (A (A > MAUD ALAN ALAN C D) 'AZURE) ALAN (SETQ (SETQ ALAN ALAN (A 'AZURE) D) D) > (SETQ (SETQ B) (SETQ D) FOOFWA B) 'MAUD) (A C AZURE ALAN ALAN (SETQ D) > AZURE AZURE (A (A 'AZURE) FOOFWA (PRINT FOOFWA 'AZURE) ALAN ALAN (PRINT > (PRINT C (SETQ (A B (SETQ AZURE D) B) '(A (SETQ 'ALAN) D) D) ALAN 'ALAN) > (PRINT B (SETQ (SETQ (PRINT (PRINT '(C '(A C AZURE (PRINT D C D) FOOFWA > (SETQ (APPEND (PRINT D D) (PRINT (APPEND FOOFWA (SETQ '(A D (PRINT FOOFWA > (APPEND (PRINT AZURE (SETQ FOOFWA '(A (PRINT B C FOOFWA B B) 'ALAN) (PRINT > '(C B B '(C C '(C '(A (A '(A (PRINT (SETQ FOOFWA (A '(A (APPEND '(C D '(A > D)) B '(C (PRINT ALAN '(A D)) B) '(C B) D)) (PRINT '(A (APPEND (APPEND '(A > '(C D))) ALAN (APPEND ALAN (PRINT FOOFWA (APPEND FOOFWA FOOFWA '(A (A '(C > B) FOOFWA (A FOOFWA D))) '(A ALAN B) '(C '(C FOOFWA (A B '(A '(C '(C > (PRINT B) (APPEND D))) C D))) D)) (A B) C C B) (APPEND D))) C (A C D))) > '(A D))) (A (A (A D))) B) '(A D) C B) '(C D))) B '(A C '(C C D) (A (A (A > (A (A FOOFWA FOOFWA C (A D))) (A C '(A C '(C B '(C FOOFWA C '(C (A B D) B > D))) C FOOFWA (A B (A C B D) (A (A '(A '(A '(C D) D) D) (A FOOFWA (APPEND > (APPEND C '(A FOOFWA C B) (A FOOFWA B D) B B) '(C B C D) (A D) FOOFWA > FOOFWA C FOOFWA D) D) FOOFWA D) D) D) D) '(C '(C B) A) FOOFWA C '(C D) D) > B B D) (A (A (PRINT A) (APPEND (A B) B) (A (A C (APPEND A) A) B) B) D) > FOOFWA A) A) D) D) B (PRINT (APPEND (A (A B) A) (APPEND (APPEND B B > (APPEND A) (LIST A) (APPEND (A (A (LIST (LIST (PRINT FOOFWA B D) B) > (APPEND A) D) C B) D))) A) A) (A D))) (LIST D) B) B) (LIST (LIST (A C > (PRINT (APPEND (LIST '(C D) A) A) B) B (LIST '(C A) (LIST B FOOFWA B) C > '(C (LIST FOOFWA B (LIST (APPEND (A FOOFWA B (LIST D) D) FOOFWA D) B) D))) > (LIST (A D) D) (A D) (A B C B (LIST B) FOOFWA C B) B (A '(C B) (A D) (A > (LIST (A A (A B) (A B) (A (LIST B) B B B) (A (PRINT (A B (A (LIST FOOFWA B > FOOFWA FOOFWA A (LIST (A (FOOFWA FOOFWA C FOOFWA MAUD) A (A (FOOFWA (A D) > FOOFWA C D) A D) D) (LIST (FOOFWA B MAUD) B)) MAUD) (A C D) B)) B)) D) B > (PRINT (PRINT C (PRINT (PRINT A MAUD) C C (LIST (PRINT D) B) (FOOFWA B)) > D) (A (PRINT A B) (PRINT (A (PRINT (FOOFWA C C (LIST (LIST C FOOFWA FOOFWA > (PRINT (LIST (PRINT C B)) B) (PRINT D) A MAUD) FOOFWA B)) D) C MAUD) > (PRINT A (PRINT B)) FOOFWA (LIST MAUD) C B)) A A) (LIST C B) B) MAUD) > (FOOFWA (PRINT (FOOFWA C FOOFWA (LIST (LIST B)) B) FOOFWA MAUD) (FOOFWA > (LIST FOOFWA A (PRINT (FOOFWA (FOOFWA MAUD) A B)) A) (LIST (FOOFWA FOOFWA > FOOFWA MAUD) FOOFWA (PRINT A) FOOFWA A) (PRINT (FOOFWA A) MAUD) MAUD) > (FOOFWA A FOOFWA MAUD) MAUD) (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA A) (LIST > (LIST (LIST A (LIST (LIST (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST (LIST MAUD) (LIST A (LIST > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA FOOFWA (LIST A (FOOFWA A) (FOOFWA (LIST A (LIST > (LIST (FOOFWA A A A (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST B)) C A (LIST (LIST (LIST C C > (LIST FOOFWA (FOOFWA MAUD) (FOOFWA A A (FOOFWA B)) (FOOFWA (PRINT (LIST A > (LIST (PRINT D)) MAUD) (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C D)) (FOOFWA B)) (LIST A D)) MAUD) > (PRINT (LIST A (FOOFWA A D)) MAUD) (LIST C A B (FOOFWA B)) MAUD) D)) A A C > A (FOOFWA A A D)) MAUD) (PRINT B (PRINT MAUD (PRINT C MAUD) (PRINT (PRINT > MAUD) (PRINT (FOOFWA A MAUD) A D)) (FOOFWA B MAUD) MAUD A (FOOFWA MAUD) > MAUD MAUD) (PRINT MAUD) D)) (LIST (FOOFWA MAUD) MAUD MAUD) MAUD MAUD) C > MAUD A A MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST A (LIST C B (LIST A A (FOOFWA MAUD > (FOOFWA AZURE A MAUD) B ALAN) (FOOFWA (LIST AZURE (FOOFWA (FOOFWA B MAUD) > (PRINT (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C AZURE (LIST ALAN) ALAN) ALAN) MAUD) MAUD) > (FOOFWA ALAN) ALAN) (FOOFWA (LIST (FOOFWA (LIST MAUD) (LIST (FOOFWA > (FOOFWA ALAN) MAUD) MAUD) MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (PRINT ALAN) > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA ALAN) MAUD MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA (LIST (PRINT MAUD) MAUD) > MAUD MAUD MAUD) C B (LIST MAUD ALAN) MAUD) ALAN) MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA MAUD > AZURE C ALAN) (FOOFWA MAUD) (APPEND (LIST MAUD ALAN) ALAN) C (FOOFWA > (APPEND MAUD) ALAN) MAUD A (FOOFWA MAUD) (FOOFWA MAUD AZURE (PRINT (LIST > (PRINT MAUD) C D)) D)) ALAN) MAUD B A MAUD (FOOFWA B MAUD (LIST (LIST MAUD > AZURE MAUD ALAN) A (FOOFWA (PRINT C C A B B) A C A B) (PRINT A AZURE AZURE > MAUD (LIST B A AZURE (PRINT (PRINT (LIST (LIST A (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C (LIST > D)) (FOOFWA MAUD MAUD MAUD (FOOFWA A D)) (LIST (LIST MAUD MAUD (PRINT B > (LIST C (PRINT A (LIST C (FOOFWA MAUD (FOOFWA MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA (FOOFWA > (LIST (LIST D)) ALAN) (FOOFWA C D)) (FOOFWA MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C B (LIST > A MAUD (FOOFWA (LIST (PRINT ALAN) MAUD (FOOFWA (LIST (LIST MAUD (FOOFWA > (FOOFWA A MAUD MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (PRINT ALAN) C (FOOFWA (FOOFWA AZURE > B) (LIST C MAUD AZURE (FOOFWA AZURE (LIST (FOOFWA AZURE C MAUD ALAN) AZURE > (FOOFWA C AZURE (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (PRINT C AZURE (FOOFWA A B) C B) ALAN) > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (APPEND B) B) (APPEND B) (PRINT AZURE A AZURE (FOOFWA MAUD > C A ALAN) AZURE (PRINT AZURE ALAN) (APPEND B) (APPEND (FOOFWA (FOOFWA > AZURE (APPEND ALAN) (APPEND ALAN) (APPEND (FOOFWA ALAN) AZURE AZURE ALAN) > (PRINT AZURE (FOOFWA AZURE (FOOFWA (FOOFWA D))) MAUD C C AZURE AZURE > (PRINT ALAN) C A D))) MAUD AZURE (FOOFWA ALAN) (PRINT (PRINT D))) A B) > AZURE (PRINT (PRINT (FOOFWA ALAN) MAUD MAUD (PRINT MAUD (APPEND A ALAN) > (PRINT (PRINT ALAN) MAUD AZURE B) (LIST B) AZURE AZURE MAUD (LIST (LIST > AZURE AZURE ALAN) AZURE (APPEND (PRINT 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AZURE) AZURE) > C ALAN WORLD) ALAN AZURE) ALAN (A D)) AZURE) C C B (B ALAN D) C SETQ D)) > (CDR B ALAN D) ALAN MAUD D)) SETQ WORLD B MAUD MAUD (A D) AZURE) (CDR D) > (CDR ALAN SETQ MAUD D) D) MAUD AZURE) WORLD) '(A SETQ MAUD WORLD) B (CDR > SETQ SETQ (B WORLD) MAUD C (CAR D) MAUD ALAN WORLD) C C '(A ALAN '(A (CAR > SETQ SETQ (B (B SETQ D)) C '(A (B WORLD) SETQ D) C '(A MAUD C (CDR D)) D) > MAUD SETQ WORLD) '(A C WORLD) D) D)) (B WORLD) SETQ D) C B (B SETQ C C > (CDR (CAR '(A (CAR SETQ D)) (A (A D) C C (A D) (B C C '(A A D) (CDR C D) B > (B (CAR D)) D)) (A D)) B B D)) B B (CAR B (CDR (CDR D) D D)) (A (CDR (CAR > (CAR A A B (B (B (A D (A (B D) D) (B (B (A (A D C D) D) (CAR D)) C D (CAR > B A (A B (B (B D) D B B A A (A D) B D (A (B (B B B (A D)) A (A D) B D (CAR > D) D) WORLD) C D (B WORLD) C (A D) D) B C (CAR D) (A B C (CDR B C D D) C C > (CDR C B C A D) D) (CDR C D C B B (CAR D C C (A B A B (APPEND WORLD) B > WORLD) B B WORLD) B (CAR C (A C C D) A (A (APPEND C (CAR (CDR (APPEND > WORLD) 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(APPEND WORLD B C D) > (APPEND WORLD) (APPEND WORLD C (APPEND WORLD) D) (APPEND (A WORLD (APPEND > D) WORLD) (APPEND D) B D) WORLD) (APPEND A B D) B A (APPEND (APPEND C B B > C B B WORLD) A WORLD) (APPEND (APPEND D) A A WORLD) B WORLD A C B C > (APPEND (APPEND WORLD)) C A C A C (APPEND A WORLD) WORLD) A B WORLD > (APPEND WORLD) (APPEND (APPEND (CAR WORLD A D) WORLD)) WORLD B A D) A (CAR > (APPEND WORLD)) (APPEND A B B (CAR A B WORLD)) B B (APPEND A WORLD (APPEND > (B (APPEND C A (A (B (B (A WORLD WORLD B D B WORLD WORLD)) (APPEND D D > WORLD WORLD (A WORLD)) C (B (A B (APPEND WORLD)) A C B C C A D WORLD WORLD > D (APPEND (CAR B WORLD (APPEND A (B A C B WORLD)) (CDR (APPEND (B B D A C > WORLD)) (APPEND (B (APPEND WORLD A D (B WORLD)) D) WORLD A WORLD)) A (CDR > C C C D (APPEND WORLD WORLD (B A (CAR B A WORLD (CAR WORLD)) C B A (CDR > WORLD)) (B C WORLD C (APPEND (APPEND B (CAR C D) (APPEND D) C C C (CDR > (CDR A (PRINT (CAR B (CDR C C B B D) WORLD WORLD (APPEND (PRINT WORLD > WORLD A A WORLD)) WORLD B WORLD (PRINT (PRINT A A C (CAR (PRINT A) C C B > (APPEND WORLD)) WORLD)) WORLD A (PRINT WORLD)) WORLD)) B B WORLD (B FOOFWA > A) WORLD WORLD WORLD)) FOOFWA FOOFWA (APPEND (CAR B C A WORLD)) (PRINT C > (B A (APPEND (PRINT (PRINT WORLD)) (APPEND FOOFWA C A A FOOFWA FOOFWA D (B > (APPEND WORLD)) FOOFWA (CDR D) (PRINT A) A WORLD)) FOOFWA (CDR (PRINT > FOOFWA WORLD)) A) A (B (CDR FOOFWA A) WORLD)) FOOFWA WORLD)) D A) (B > FOOFWA C D) A) C (A (APPEND FOOFWA D C C D D) D (B B (B FOOFWA A A) B > WORLD) WORLD)) D (CDR WORLD) A C D FOOFWA WORLD WORLD) A (A D (A A FOOFWA > WORLD) WORLD)) WORLD)) WORLD) D C WORLD WORLD)) WORLD FOOFWA FOOFWA > WORLD)) (A A) WORLD) D) D (A A) B FOOFWA C WORLD) WORLD (A D D FOOFWA B C > WORLD) D D FOOFWA (A WORLD)) C B C A B C B B C WORLD)) C D) B D C WORLD) C > B B D) C C WORLD) C B C D C (A WORLD) D) D D) C B B D) D) B FOOFWA FOOFWA > D) D) C B B WORLD) D) D (A B FOOFWA B D B (PRINT (PRINT (A C B FOOFWA D) > (PRINT B B (A (PRINT D) B WORLD) WORLD) B C (PRINT C B FOOFWA (PRINT > (PRINT B WORLD) FOOFWA (APPEND (A D) FOOFWA (A (PRINT (PRINT (A B (A B > (PRINT D) C FOOFWA FOOFWA (APPEND FOOFWA A (PRINT FOOFWA (PRINT A C (PRINT > B B (A WORLD))) FOOFWA (APPEND B C C (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT D) D) FOOFWA > WORLD))) (PRINT D) (A (A D) D) (APPEND (PRINT WORLD))) WORLD))) (A (A C > FOOFWA WORLD))) WORLD))) C (PRINT (PRINT FOOFWA (PRINT D) D) (A WORLD))) > (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT B C WORLD))) (PRINT D) D) C C FOOFWA > FOOFWA (PRINT A (A (PRINT WORLD))) C B (A C WORLD))) WORLD))) D) C C A (A > (A C C D) B FOOFWA (PRINT C B A WORLD))) WORLD))) (A (A C B WORLD))) C (A > (A (A B B C (A (A C (PRINT D) (A (A C A A (A A *** C C D) A A D) A D) (A > (APPEND (A C (A (A (APPEND *** (A D) B *** D) A D) C D) D) D) *** D) *** > D) C *** (A (A *** D) FOOFWA D) (A D) C B (A *** (A D) is D) - (A (APPEND > B APPEND: D) D) - D) C B (APPEND A D) C C C - (A APPEND: a APPEND: D) > (APPEND C a a C (A FOOFWA (PRINT (APPEND C FOOFWA D) APPEND: (APPEND > (APPEND is FOOFWA C *** list a C D) FOOFWA not *** (PRINT D) (PRINT list > (APPEND (APPEND is is (APPEND B (A (PRINT is FOOFWA (APPEND a *** (PRINT C > not (PRINT B a C (APPEND APPEND: WORLD))) not FOOFWA a B list APPEND: > (APPEND a not is list (APPEND *** *** (PRINT WORLD))) WORLD))) list > (APPEND B - - a *** (A C B list (A not WORLD))) C B (PRINT not a is - > WORLD))) B B C C list is B is list a is (PRINT (PRINT B D) C C (PRINT > WORLD))) a APPEND: C is list - - D) - list B FOOFWA list - C - D) APPEND: > FOOFWA B WORLD))) C APPEND: not a is C - is list - B D) is is APPEND: C is > not list not is - list list list - C APPEND: list is is D) a not is FOOFWA > APPEND: D) list FOOFWA a list FOOFWA FOOFWA list list not not - is a list > APPEND: not is list is APPEND: list is not is list list is not a list list > FOOFWA list list not a is not list FOOFWA is not a list > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:38:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: CARFUCKNUMBERBOY In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable quale troubadour this cum is why it di dn 't que w h a t e v e r over diss 'im aa -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Roger Day Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 17:09 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: CARFUCKNUMBERBOY and lisp was such a beatiful language as well ... tell me, is this CommonLisp? On 12/5/06, Alan Sondheim wrote: > CARFUCKNUMBERBOY > > (SETQ GIRL 'BOY) BOY > (SETQ BOY 'GIRL) GIRL > (LIST '(BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) ((BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) > (SETQ FUCK '(BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) (BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY) > (FUCK) *** - EVAL: undefined function FUCK > (LIST FUCK) ((BOY BOY GIRL GIRL BOY)) > (CDR FUCK) (BOY GIRL GIRL BOY) > (CAR FUCK) BOY > *** - +: GIRL is not a number > > CLASP DANSE > > list list APPEND: - 'MAUD) is list list - list *** FOOFWA not FOOFWA MAUD > is list is APPEND: MAUD MAUD A not list not list list is not not FOOFWA > list A FOOFWA B MAUD APPEND: *** 'MAUD) B C - APPEND: is C is FOOFWA > 'MAUD) 'MAUD) not A list 'MAUD) FOOFWA MAUD is C (SETQ - list B 'FOOFWA) A > (SETQ - not 'FOOFWA) not B 'MAUD) (SETQ A (SETQ 'FOOFWA) not MAUD B (SETQ > MAUD is FOOFWA (SETQ not B MAUD C not C B B C (SETQ list MAUD (SETQ MAUD > is B not (SETQ (SETQ 'FOOFWA) list C (SETQ 'FOOFWA) B C A list AZURE > 'FOOFWA) MAUD C MAUD 'FOOFWA) C (SETQ 'FOOFWA) 'FOOFWA) (SETQ A ALAN list > 'FOOFWA) list C (SETQ list (SETQ (SETQ AZURE ALAN A (SETQ (SETQ (SETQ > (SETQ 'ALAN) AZURE list (SETQ A A (SETQ (SETQ B AZURE A A C (SETQ list > 'ALAN) '(A 'ALAN) 'FOOFWA) (SETQ (SETQ '(A '(A (SETQ list ALAN B FOOFWA B > ALAN AZURE 'ALAN) FOOFWA FOOFWA ALAN ALAN (SETQ AZURE B) '(A (SETQ A > 'ALAN) (APPEND (SETQ 'MAUD) A 'MAUD) B) (SETQ FOOFWA ALAN ALAN FOOFWA C > (SETQ B ALAN 'ALAN) (SETQ '(A (SETQ 'MAUD) A (APPEND D C '(A A FOOFWA D)) > 'MAUD) (APPEND 'ALAN) '(A C ALAN D)) FOOFWA '(A (APPEND MAUD ALAN (SETQ > AZURE (SETQ D B) 'MAUD) B) FOOFWA C 'AZURE) 'AZURE) '(A (SETQ (SETQ (A > (SETQ ALAN (SETQ (APPEND 'MAUD) (A (SETQ D (APPEND '(A 'MAUD) ALAN B) C C > (A (SETQ B MAUD C MAUD B B) 'MAUD) D D (SETQ D) (SETQ (A D B) B) (A (A > MAUD ALAN ALAN C D) 'AZURE) ALAN (SETQ (SETQ ALAN ALAN (A 'AZURE) D) D) > (SETQ (SETQ B) (SETQ D) FOOFWA B) 'MAUD) (A C AZURE ALAN ALAN (SETQ D) > AZURE AZURE (A (A 'AZURE) FOOFWA (PRINT FOOFWA 'AZURE) ALAN ALAN (PRINT > (PRINT C (SETQ (A B (SETQ AZURE D) B) '(A (SETQ 'ALAN) D) D) ALAN 'ALAN) > (PRINT B (SETQ (SETQ (PRINT (PRINT '(C '(A C AZURE (PRINT D C D) FOOFWA > (SETQ (APPEND (PRINT D D) (PRINT (APPEND FOOFWA (SETQ '(A D (PRINT FOOFWA > (APPEND (PRINT AZURE (SETQ FOOFWA '(A (PRINT B C FOOFWA B B) 'ALAN) (PRINT > '(C B B '(C C '(C '(A (A '(A (PRINT (SETQ FOOFWA (A '(A (APPEND '(C D '(A > D)) B '(C (PRINT ALAN '(A D)) B) '(C B) D)) (PRINT '(A (APPEND (APPEND '(A > '(C D))) ALAN (APPEND ALAN (PRINT FOOFWA (APPEND FOOFWA FOOFWA '(A (A '(C > B) FOOFWA (A FOOFWA D))) '(A ALAN B) '(C '(C FOOFWA (A B '(A '(C '(C > (PRINT B) (APPEND D))) C D))) D)) (A B) C C B) (APPEND D))) C (A C D))) > '(A D))) (A (A (A D))) B) '(A D) C B) '(C D))) B '(A C '(C C D) (A (A (A > (A (A FOOFWA FOOFWA C (A D))) (A C '(A C '(C B '(C FOOFWA C '(C (A B D) B > D))) C FOOFWA (A B (A C B D) (A (A '(A '(A '(C D) D) D) (A FOOFWA (APPEND > (APPEND C '(A FOOFWA C B) (A FOOFWA B D) B B) '(C B C D) (A D) FOOFWA > FOOFWA C FOOFWA D) D) FOOFWA D) D) D) D) '(C '(C B) A) FOOFWA C '(C D) D) > B B D) (A (A (PRINT A) (APPEND (A B) B) (A (A C (APPEND A) A) B) B) D) > FOOFWA A) A) D) D) B (PRINT (APPEND (A (A B) A) (APPEND (APPEND B B > (APPEND A) (LIST A) (APPEND (A (A (LIST (LIST (PRINT FOOFWA B D) B) > (APPEND A) D) C B) D))) A) A) (A D))) (LIST D) B) B) (LIST (LIST (A C > (PRINT (APPEND (LIST '(C D) A) A) B) B (LIST '(C A) (LIST B FOOFWA B) C > '(C (LIST FOOFWA B (LIST (APPEND (A FOOFWA B (LIST D) D) FOOFWA D) B) D))) > (LIST (A D) D) (A D) (A B C B (LIST B) FOOFWA C B) B (A '(C B) (A D) (A > (LIST (A A (A B) (A B) (A (LIST B) B B B) (A (PRINT (A B (A (LIST FOOFWA B > FOOFWA FOOFWA A (LIST (A (FOOFWA FOOFWA C FOOFWA MAUD) A (A (FOOFWA (A D) > FOOFWA C D) A D) D) (LIST (FOOFWA B MAUD) B)) MAUD) (A C D) B)) B)) D) B > (PRINT (PRINT C (PRINT (PRINT A MAUD) C C (LIST (PRINT D) B) (FOOFWA B)) > D) (A (PRINT A B) (PRINT (A (PRINT (FOOFWA C C (LIST (LIST C FOOFWA FOOFWA > (PRINT (LIST (PRINT C B)) B) (PRINT D) A MAUD) FOOFWA B)) D) C MAUD) > (PRINT A (PRINT B)) FOOFWA (LIST MAUD) C B)) A A) (LIST C B) B) MAUD) > (FOOFWA (PRINT (FOOFWA C FOOFWA (LIST (LIST B)) B) FOOFWA MAUD) (FOOFWA > (LIST FOOFWA A (PRINT (FOOFWA (FOOFWA MAUD) A B)) A) (LIST (FOOFWA FOOFWA > FOOFWA MAUD) FOOFWA (PRINT A) FOOFWA A) (PRINT (FOOFWA A) MAUD) MAUD) > (FOOFWA A FOOFWA MAUD) MAUD) (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA A) (LIST > (LIST (LIST A (LIST (LIST (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST (LIST MAUD) (LIST A (LIST > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA FOOFWA (LIST A (FOOFWA A) (FOOFWA (LIST A (LIST > (LIST (FOOFWA A A A (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST B)) C A (LIST (LIST (LIST C C > (LIST FOOFWA (FOOFWA MAUD) (FOOFWA A A (FOOFWA B)) (FOOFWA (PRINT (LIST A > (LIST (PRINT D)) MAUD) (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C D)) (FOOFWA B)) (LIST A D)) MAUD) > (PRINT (LIST A (FOOFWA A D)) MAUD) (LIST C A B (FOOFWA B)) MAUD) D)) A A C > A (FOOFWA A A D)) MAUD) (PRINT B (PRINT MAUD (PRINT C MAUD) (PRINT (PRINT > MAUD) (PRINT (FOOFWA A MAUD) A D)) (FOOFWA B MAUD) MAUD A (FOOFWA MAUD) > MAUD MAUD) (PRINT MAUD) D)) (LIST (FOOFWA MAUD) MAUD MAUD) MAUD MAUD) C > MAUD A A MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST A (LIST C B (LIST A A (FOOFWA MAUD > (FOOFWA AZURE A MAUD) B ALAN) (FOOFWA (LIST AZURE (FOOFWA (FOOFWA B MAUD) > (PRINT (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C AZURE (LIST ALAN) ALAN) ALAN) MAUD) MAUD) > (FOOFWA ALAN) ALAN) (FOOFWA (LIST (FOOFWA (LIST MAUD) (LIST (FOOFWA > (FOOFWA ALAN) MAUD) MAUD) MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (PRINT ALAN) > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA ALAN) MAUD MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA (LIST (PRINT MAUD) MAUD) > MAUD MAUD MAUD) C B (LIST MAUD ALAN) MAUD) ALAN) MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA MAUD > AZURE C ALAN) (FOOFWA MAUD) (APPEND (LIST MAUD ALAN) ALAN) C (FOOFWA > (APPEND MAUD) ALAN) MAUD A (FOOFWA MAUD) (FOOFWA MAUD AZURE (PRINT (LIST > (PRINT MAUD) C D)) D)) ALAN) MAUD B A MAUD (FOOFWA B MAUD (LIST (LIST MAUD > AZURE MAUD ALAN) A (FOOFWA (PRINT C C A B B) A C A B) (PRINT A AZURE AZURE > MAUD (LIST B A AZURE (PRINT (PRINT (LIST (LIST A (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C (LIST > D)) (FOOFWA MAUD MAUD MAUD (FOOFWA A D)) (LIST (LIST MAUD MAUD (PRINT B > (LIST C (PRINT A (LIST C (FOOFWA MAUD (FOOFWA MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA (FOOFWA > (LIST (LIST D)) ALAN) (FOOFWA C D)) (FOOFWA MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA C B (LIST > A MAUD (FOOFWA (LIST (PRINT ALAN) MAUD (FOOFWA (LIST (LIST MAUD (FOOFWA > (FOOFWA A MAUD MAUD (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (PRINT ALAN) C (FOOFWA (FOOFWA AZURE > B) (LIST C MAUD AZURE (FOOFWA AZURE (LIST (FOOFWA AZURE C MAUD ALAN) AZURE > (FOOFWA C AZURE (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (PRINT C AZURE (FOOFWA A B) C B) ALAN) > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (APPEND B) B) (APPEND B) (PRINT AZURE A AZURE (FOOFWA MAUD > C A ALAN) AZURE (PRINT AZURE ALAN) (APPEND B) (APPEND (FOOFWA (FOOFWA > AZURE (APPEND ALAN) (APPEND ALAN) (APPEND (FOOFWA ALAN) AZURE AZURE ALAN) > (PRINT AZURE (FOOFWA AZURE (FOOFWA (FOOFWA D))) MAUD C C AZURE AZURE > (PRINT ALAN) C A D))) MAUD AZURE (FOOFWA ALAN) (PRINT (PRINT D))) A B) > AZURE (PRINT (PRINT (FOOFWA ALAN) MAUD MAUD (PRINT MAUD (APPEND A ALAN) > (PRINT (PRINT ALAN) MAUD AZURE B) (LIST B) AZURE AZURE MAUD (LIST (LIST > AZURE AZURE ALAN) AZURE (APPEND (PRINT 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AZURE > (FOOFWA (FOOFWA B) (LIST D ALAN) ALAN) (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (LIST (FOOFWA ALAN) > D ALAN) (PRINT (FOOFWA (FOOFWA D ALAN) (FOOFWA AZURE (PRINT D (PRINT > (FOOFWA A B) D A AZURE) MAUD (FOOFWA (PRINT A A (PRINT B) (PRINT (PRINT > (LIST (PRINT (FOOFWA ALAN) D (LIST ALAN ALAN) (PRINT (FOOFWA ALAN (APPEND > A (PRINT (FOOFWA AZURE ALAN (APPEND AZURE) (PRINT AZURE) (APPEND (FOOFWA > ALAN ALAN) ALAN) ALAN (PRINT MAUD AZURE ALAN) AZURE (FOOFWA C))))) ALAN) D > D ALAN ALAN (PRINT AZURE) D (LIST C))))) MAUD ALAN AZURE AZURE) (PRINT > (PRINT C))))) (LIST A ALAN (PRINT (PRINT (FOOFWA AZURE) ALAN) MAUD (FOOFWA > MAUD (APPEND (LIST (APPEND (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (APPEND ALAN) MAUD B) (LIST B) > MAUD ALAN MAUD (LIST (LIST ALAN MAUD (APPEND ALAN MAUD (FOOFWA (APPEND > (PRINT MAUD AZURE) ALAN B) (PRINT B) MAUD (LIST (LIST ALAN ALAN (LIST > C))))) C))))) B) ALAN MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA ALAN B) (PRINT AZURE) (FOOFWA > C))))) (FOOFWA (PRINT (LIST AZURE) (LIST AZURE) MAUD (FOOFWA C))))) ALAN > AZURE) (LIST (FOOFWA AZURE) (LIST ALAN (LIST ALAN ALAN (FOOFWA MAUD (LIST > MAUD (LIST C))))) MAUD MAUD (FOOFWA ALAN C))))) SETQ AZURE) ALAN C))))) > AZURE) (LIST AZURE) AZURE) (FOOFWA AZURE) (FOOFWA (LIST ALAN MAUD C))))) > C))))) SETQ C))))) WORLD (LIST C))))) (LIST WORLD MAUD (LIST (FOOFWA > (FOOFWA AZURE) B C))))) SETQ (FOOFWA MAUD MAUD AZURE) AZURE) (LIST ALAN > ALAN (FOOFWA B MAUD ALAN AZURE) AZURE) ALAN ALAN SETQ MAUD B B AZURE) > AZURE) MAUD C))))) B B MAUD (LIST AZURE) (FOOFWA MAUD ALAN ALAN AZURE) B > MAUD MAUD AZURE) AZURE) MAUD (FOOFWA (A B MAUD ALAN ALAN (A (A (FOOFWA > C))))) AZURE) WORLD AZURE) MAUD B MAUD (FOOFWA AZURE) MAUD B B ALAN MAUD > (A WORLD AZURE) AZURE) (A (A ALAN (FOOFWA (FOOFWA MAUD (A (FOOFWA WORLD B > B AZURE) AZURE) (A (FOOFWA B (A AZURE) C AZURE) (FOOFWA (FOOFWA (A C > AZURE) (A MAUD ALAN C AZURE) (A WORLD WORLD C WORLD C MAUD (A ALAN WORLD > WORLD ALAN WORLD ALAN AZURE) SETQ AZURE) (A AZURE) C SETQ C AZURE) ALAN > (FOOFWA C ALAN WORLD ALAN (A ALAN B ALAN C ALAN C ALAN (A C AZURE) AZURE) > C ALAN WORLD) ALAN AZURE) ALAN (A D)) AZURE) C C B (B ALAN D) C SETQ D)) > (CDR B ALAN D) ALAN MAUD D)) SETQ WORLD B MAUD MAUD (A D) AZURE) (CDR D) > (CDR ALAN SETQ MAUD D) D) MAUD AZURE) WORLD) '(A SETQ MAUD WORLD) B (CDR > SETQ SETQ (B WORLD) MAUD C (CAR D) MAUD ALAN WORLD) C C '(A ALAN '(A (CAR > SETQ SETQ (B (B SETQ D)) C '(A (B WORLD) SETQ D) C '(A MAUD C (CDR D)) D) > MAUD SETQ WORLD) '(A C WORLD) D) D)) (B WORLD) SETQ D) C B (B SETQ C C > (CDR (CAR '(A (CAR SETQ D)) (A (A D) C C (A D) (B C C '(A A D) (CDR C D) B > (B (CAR D)) D)) (A D)) B B D)) B B (CAR B (CDR (CDR D) D D)) (A (CDR (CAR > (CAR A A B (B (B (A D (A (B D) D) (B (B (A (A D C D) D) (CAR D)) C D (CAR > B A (A B (B (B D) D B B A A (A D) B D (A (B (B B B (A D)) A (A D) B D (CAR > D) D) WORLD) C D (B WORLD) C (A D) D) B C (CAR D) (A B C (CDR B C D D) C C > (CDR C B C A D) D) (CDR C D C B B (CAR D C C (A B A B (APPEND WORLD) B > WORLD) B B WORLD) B (CAR C (A C C D) A (A (APPEND C (CAR (CDR (APPEND > WORLD) B WORLD) C (B D) WORLD) (APPEND WORLD) (APPEND WORLD) B (APPEND C C > (APPEND (CAR (APPEND (B C (B B A (B (APPEND D D) WORLD (CAR WORLD D (A A > WORLD) D) (B WORLD (CAR (CAR A (A B D) (CAR (CAR B WORLD (B WORLD) (A > WORLD) WORLD) (A (CAR (A (A (CAR (B (APPEND C (A (CAR (APPEND D) WORLD) (A > (A WORLD (APPEND (CAR D) B (A (CAR (CAR WORLD) WORLD (APPEND C (CAR C B (A > (A WORLD WORLD (A B A C WORLD WORLD) (A (A (APPEND C (CAR WORLD WORLD B (A > (CAR (A C C WORLD WORLD) (A B (APPEND C (A (A WORLD D (APPEND (A D) > (APPEND WORLD B C B (A B C C (A (APPEND A A (APPEND (APPEND A WORLD C D > (APPEND WORLD WORLD (A D (APPEND B B B A A B D B D B B D WORLD WORLD > (APPEND C A A WORLD B B D D D (APPEND (APPEND B C C (APPEND (APPEND > (APPEND WORLD (APPEND A C C C (APPEND (APPEND B A C D) B D D B D) WORLD > (APPEND (APPEND C D) D) D D C (A (APPEND D) C (APPEND WORLD (APPEND > (APPEND B A D A (APPEND D) C B (A (APPEND (APPEND C C WORLD (APPEND > (APPEND A (APPEND (APPEND (APPEND (APPEND B (A B D) (APPEND WORLD B C D) > (APPEND WORLD) (APPEND WORLD C (APPEND WORLD) D) (APPEND (A WORLD (APPEND > D) WORLD) (APPEND D) B D) WORLD) (APPEND A B D) B A (APPEND (APPEND C B B > C B B WORLD) A WORLD) (APPEND (APPEND D) A A WORLD) B WORLD A C B C > (APPEND (APPEND WORLD)) C A C A C (APPEND A WORLD) WORLD) A B WORLD > (APPEND WORLD) (APPEND (APPEND (CAR WORLD A D) WORLD)) WORLD B A D) A (CAR > (APPEND WORLD)) (APPEND A B B (CAR A B WORLD)) B B (APPEND A WORLD (APPEND > (B (APPEND C A (A (B (B (A WORLD WORLD B D B WORLD WORLD)) (APPEND D D > WORLD WORLD (A WORLD)) C (B (A B (APPEND WORLD)) A C B C C A D WORLD WORLD > D (APPEND (CAR B WORLD (APPEND A (B A C B WORLD)) (CDR (APPEND (B B D A C > WORLD)) (APPEND (B (APPEND WORLD A D (B WORLD)) D) WORLD A WORLD)) A (CDR > C C C D (APPEND WORLD WORLD (B A (CAR B A WORLD (CAR WORLD)) C B A (CDR > WORLD)) (B C WORLD C (APPEND (APPEND B (CAR C D) (APPEND D) C C C (CDR > (CDR A (PRINT (CAR B (CDR C C B B D) WORLD WORLD (APPEND (PRINT WORLD > WORLD A A WORLD)) WORLD B WORLD (PRINT (PRINT A A C (CAR (PRINT A) C C B > (APPEND WORLD)) WORLD)) WORLD A (PRINT WORLD)) WORLD)) B B WORLD (B FOOFWA > A) WORLD WORLD WORLD)) FOOFWA FOOFWA (APPEND (CAR B C A WORLD)) (PRINT C > (B A (APPEND (PRINT (PRINT WORLD)) (APPEND FOOFWA C A A FOOFWA FOOFWA D (B > (APPEND WORLD)) FOOFWA (CDR D) (PRINT A) A WORLD)) FOOFWA (CDR (PRINT > FOOFWA WORLD)) A) A (B (CDR FOOFWA A) WORLD)) FOOFWA WORLD)) D A) (B > FOOFWA C D) A) C (A (APPEND FOOFWA D C C D D) D (B B (B FOOFWA A A) B > WORLD) WORLD)) D (CDR WORLD) A C D FOOFWA WORLD WORLD) A (A D (A A FOOFWA > WORLD) WORLD)) WORLD)) WORLD) D C WORLD WORLD)) WORLD FOOFWA FOOFWA > WORLD)) (A A) WORLD) D) D (A A) B FOOFWA C WORLD) WORLD (A D D FOOFWA B C > WORLD) D D FOOFWA (A WORLD)) C B C A B C B B C WORLD)) C D) B D C WORLD) C > B B D) C C WORLD) C B C D C (A WORLD) D) D D) C B B D) D) B FOOFWA FOOFWA > D) D) C B B WORLD) D) D (A B FOOFWA B D B (PRINT (PRINT (A C B FOOFWA D) > (PRINT B B (A (PRINT D) B WORLD) WORLD) B C (PRINT C B FOOFWA (PRINT > (PRINT B WORLD) FOOFWA (APPEND (A D) FOOFWA (A (PRINT (PRINT (A B (A B > (PRINT D) C FOOFWA FOOFWA (APPEND FOOFWA A (PRINT FOOFWA (PRINT A C (PRINT > B B (A WORLD))) FOOFWA (APPEND B C C (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT D) D) FOOFWA > WORLD))) (PRINT D) (A (A D) D) (APPEND (PRINT WORLD))) WORLD))) (A (A C > FOOFWA WORLD))) WORLD))) C (PRINT (PRINT FOOFWA (PRINT D) D) (A WORLD))) > (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT (PRINT B C WORLD))) (PRINT D) D) C C FOOFWA > FOOFWA (PRINT A (A (PRINT WORLD))) C B (A C WORLD))) WORLD))) D) C C A (A > (A C C D) B FOOFWA (PRINT C B A WORLD))) WORLD))) (A (A C B WORLD))) C (A > (A (A B B C (A (A C (PRINT D) (A (A C A A (A A *** C C D) A A D) A D) (A > (APPEND (A C (A (A (APPEND *** (A D) B *** D) A D) C D) D) D) *** D) *** > D) C *** (A (A *** D) FOOFWA D) (A D) C B (A *** (A D) is D) - (A (APPEND > B APPEND: D) D) - D) C B (APPEND A D) C C C - (A APPEND: a APPEND: D) > (APPEND C a a C (A FOOFWA (PRINT (APPEND C FOOFWA D) APPEND: (APPEND > (APPEND is FOOFWA C *** list a C D) FOOFWA not *** (PRINT D) (PRINT list > (APPEND (APPEND is is (APPEND B (A (PRINT is FOOFWA (APPEND a *** (PRINT C > not (PRINT B a C (APPEND APPEND: WORLD))) not FOOFWA a B list APPEND: > (APPEND a not is list (APPEND *** *** (PRINT WORLD))) WORLD))) list > (APPEND B - - a *** (A C B list (A not WORLD))) C B (PRINT not a is - > WORLD))) B B C C list is B is list a is (PRINT (PRINT B D) C C (PRINT > WORLD))) a APPEND: C is list - - D) - list B FOOFWA list - C - D) APPEND: > FOOFWA B WORLD))) C APPEND: not a is C - is list - B D) is is APPEND: C is > not list not is - list list list - C APPEND: list is is D) a not is FOOFWA > APPEND: D) list FOOFWA a list FOOFWA FOOFWA list list not not - is a list > APPEND: not is list is APPEND: list is not is list list is not a list list > FOOFWA list list not a is not list FOOFWA is not a list > --=20 http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:00:35 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "holsapple1@juno.com" Subject: Re: Williams's medical school papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Cassandra, I don't see anyone responding to your query, so I thought to mention tha= t I wrote my dissertation on early Williams (1991) at UB & saw no refere= nce to such an archive. Also, I don't think Mariani (the biographer) wo= uld have passed such information over, if it were available. Bruce H ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:48:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: g dying, center stage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline g dying, center stage -- Peter Ciccariello Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ Word - http://poemsfromprovidence.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 23:24:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What would a Poetics of Interactive > Fiction/Interactive Poetry look like? Maybe it depends on the types of interactivity and the arts and media involved. In a sense, anything you read is interactive; meaning is constructed. It's been said that a game is a sequence of interesting choices. Kind of a general notion of 'game'. But you can see that the notion of 'game' is related to the type of interactive fiction/poetry you're thinking about. The type of interactive fiction/poetry you're describing is solely textual. There is interactive poetry that also introduces other media. In addition to the notion of 'game', there's the related notion of 'play'. As in 'play a game' or a guitar or a scenario. Sometimes this activity is compositional/constructive, sometimes the 'play button' is down, sometimes a combination of composition and 'playing through'. Here's some interactive poetry I've made. None of this is like the sort of interactive fiction/poetry you're describing. Which is to say poetics of interactive poetry/fiction can be quite broad. ARTEROIDS http://vispo.com/arteroids The battle of poetry against itself and the forces of dullness. A literary shoot-em-up. Play mode and game mode. Word for Weirdos is in play mode under 'edit'. Game mode scores are uploaded to the Net. ON LIONEL KEARNS http://vispo.com/kearns A binary meditation on the work of a Canadian poet involved in computers and poetry from the sixties on. A contemporary wreading of his work. NIO http://vispo.com/nio Interactive audio. Synthesis of visual and sound poetry together with playful interactivity. In two 'verses'. Also involves essays on the poetics of interactive audio for the Web and audio programming in Director. And source code. Song shapes. Onion skins. STIR FRY TEXTS http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts An interactive literary form. Ongoing collaborative project since 1999. ENIGMA N http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman Philosophical poetry toy for poets and philosophers from the age of 4 up. ENIGMA N^2 http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman2 Meaning thrice. Twice forward, once backwards. MILLENIUM LYRIC http://vispo.com/animisms/timesuite/MilleniumLyricIntro.htm A darkening song and then a new day. SEATTLE DRIFT http://vispo.com/animisms/SeattleDrift.html My first poem done in DHTML. While I was living in Seattle. THE IDEA OF ORDER AT KEY WEST RE-ORDERED http://vispo.com/vismu/stevens.htm The autumn of a summer song. OPPEN DO DOWN http://vispo.com/vismu/OppenDoDown.htm Interactive audio. RUDE LITTLE SONG http://vispo.com/audio/shockwave/adam.html Interactive sound poetry. ja ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 01:51:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: OFFLIST - Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jim, I apologize for this intrusion. I have a question for you, as I'm really trying to understand VISPO. Could you, would you, be willing to elaborate on the following: 1- what is vispo 2- what is its stated purpose 3- texts, what should I start with Your time, sincerly, will be appreciated. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 01:58:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: <20061206095131.50630.qmail@web54615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ooops! AJ --- Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > Jim, > > I apologize for this intrusion. I have a question > for > you, as I'm really trying to understand VISPO. Could > you, would you, be willing to elaborate on the > following: > > 1- what is vispo > 2- what is its stated purpose > 3- texts, what should I start with > > Your time, sincerly, will be appreciated. > > Regards, > Alexander Jorgensen > > --- > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Have a burning question? > Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from > real people who know. > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:22:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Re: Williams's medical school papers In-Reply-To: <20061205.160051.8332.1404450@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed i assume you know of jimtrause and the ridgewood library's collection. susan maurer >From: "holsapple1@juno.com" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Williams's medical school papers >Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:00:35 GMT > >Cassandra, > >I don't see anyone responding to your query, so I thought to mention that I >wrote my dissertation on early Williams (1991) at UB & saw no reference to >such an archive. Also, I don't think Mariani (the biographer) would have >passed such information over, if it were available. > >Bruce H _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:48:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: absent online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [apologies if you get this twice -- we are perfecting our spam :(] dear community -- the first issue of ABSENT MAGAZINE is now online at http://absentmag.org/ featuring works of poetry by Aaron Anstett * Robert Archambeau * Simeon Berry * Chris Bettell * Adam Clay * Noah Falck * Kate Greenstreet * Anthony Hawley * Dan Hoy * Matt Henriksen * Pierre Joris * Soyoung Jung * Justin Marks * Danielle Pafunda * Nicholas Perrin * Kathleen Rooney * Paul Sacksteder * Zachary Schomburg * Peter Jay Shippy * Sampson Starkweather * Julia Story * Tony Trigilio * Mark Wallace * Beth Woodcome * Jon Woodward * Elisabeth Workman translation by Eugene Ostashevsky prose by Simon DeDeo * Thomas Basboll * Andy Gricevich and cover illustration and text by Johanna Drucker please tune your browser to the far left of the dial for this orgy of personal communication -- spread the word -- prepare for open submission season in the coming months editors Simon DeDeo * Elisa Gabbert * Christopher Douglas * Joanna Guldi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:55:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just stepping in here -- a fantastic poetics-smart IF author is Emily Short (actually a pseudonym.) I see she's updated her website since I last looked at it -- http://emshort.home.mindspring.com/ The INFOCOM games of many years ago I think jumpstarted the whole genre -- they had a highly sophisticated parser. Amazingly, the thing was reverse-engineered by a Mathematician at Cambridge, and people can now write INFOCOM source to compile with freeware applications. Really amazing stuff really. There is amazingly quality stuff being written -- Em Short's pages have links to sites where "ratings" guide you past the dross. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:53:39 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Torture is Un-American Dear Friend, I thought you might be interested in this Center for Victims of Torture e-activism campaign. If you go to the URL below you can check out what is at stake and send your own message directly to the relevant decision makers. http://ga3.org/campaign/releasedocuments?rk=Id_Ng3p1dmY7W *************************************** Powered by GetActive Software, Inc. Member Relationship Management Solutions That Recruit, Engage, and Retain (tm) http://www.getactive.com *************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:15:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Zoe Ward Subject: MLA housing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed If anyone knows of an outrageously cheap place for a young publisher-person to stay during the MLA in Philly, please back-channel me! Thanks! Zoe Ward Editor & Publicist Archipelago Books 25 Jay St. #203 Brooklyn NY 11201 T: 718.852.6134 F: 718.852.6135 Visit our new website! www.archipelagobooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:14:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Williams's medical school papers In-Reply-To: <20061205.160051.8332.1404450@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lily Library in Bloomington had a number Williams's papers. I was working on another project when I was there (late 80s), but I called out tons of letters to Floss from his hospitalizations after one of his strokes. (Two lines that may be of interest: "There was never anyone else. Not really" and "Even with others I only thought of you. Please believe me." These were in separate letters professing his love.) At any rate, you might try access Lily's data base for manuscripts, if any. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of holsapple1@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 6:01 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Williams's medical school papers Cassandra, I don't see anyone responding to your query, so I thought to mention that I wrote my dissertation on early Williams (1991) at UB & saw no reference to such an archive. Also, I don't think Mariani (the biographer) would have passed such information over, if it were available. Bruce H ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 11:51:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Thanks for the thoughts, Jim. I've seen some of your work before, and other ideas using flash by Brian Kim Stefans, and one of my favorites: Alan Bigelow's http://www.savingthealphabet.com/ and I like it a lot. It hasn't appealed much to me as a writer though, mostly because i'm not very visually astute. I tend to think in words not images, and so when i want to make something the visual element is generally the form of a description and not a picture. Game is one of those hard words to get a head around for me. Wittgenstein uses it as a paradigm case for his dissolution of the problem of universals in Philosophical investigations. I like how slippery a word it is, and I'm quite fond of games like some of the dadaist/surrealist experiments. One thing that's bothered me, however, is that often times it seems like once the game has been played through once or twice, I lose interest. What I'd like to find a way to is a way to make textual games that are like Chess or Tetris. That is, Games that start from a very simple set of rules and from which can be generated more game playing experiences than an individual could ever hope to achieve in a lifetime. Part of me wants to define "surfing the internet" as that kind of game. I don't know how, precisely, to do it, but I have some ideas. I think part of it has to do with the nature of narrative. That is, it's not really possible to create an open ended narrative. even if you give a large number of options, a story requires a story structure and that's going to create a finite number of possibilities. ANd now I'm thinking of Borges and the Garden of Forking Paths. I wonder what he would have done with Flash. On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, Jim Andrews wrote: >> What would a Poetics of Interactive >> Fiction/Interactive Poetry look like? > > Maybe it depends on the types of interactivity and the arts and media > involved. > > In a sense, anything you read is interactive; meaning is constructed. > > It's been said that a game is a sequence of interesting choices. Kind of a > general notion of 'game'. But you can see that the notion of 'game' is > related to the type of interactive fiction/poetry you're thinking about. > > The type of interactive fiction/poetry you're describing is solely textual. > There is interactive poetry that also introduces other media. > > In addition to the notion of 'game', there's the related notion of 'play'. > As in 'play a game' or a guitar or a scenario. Sometimes this activity is > compositional/constructive, sometimes the 'play button' is down, sometimes a > combination of composition and 'playing through'. > > Here's some interactive poetry I've made. None of this is like the sort of > interactive fiction/poetry you're describing. Which is to say poetics of > interactive poetry/fiction can be quite broad. > > ARTEROIDS > http://vispo.com/arteroids > The battle of poetry against itself and the forces of dullness. A literary > shoot-em-up. Play mode and game mode. Word for Weirdos is in play mode under > 'edit'. Game mode scores are uploaded to the Net. > > ON LIONEL KEARNS > http://vispo.com/kearns > A binary meditation on the work of a Canadian poet involved in computers and > poetry from the sixties on. A contemporary wreading of his work. > > NIO > http://vispo.com/nio > Interactive audio. Synthesis of visual and sound poetry together with > playful interactivity. In two 'verses'. Also involves essays on the poetics > of interactive audio for the Web and audio programming in Director. And > source code. Song shapes. Onion skins. > > STIR FRY TEXTS > http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts > An interactive literary form. Ongoing collaborative project since 1999. > > ENIGMA N > http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman > Philosophical poetry toy for poets and philosophers from the age of 4 up. > > ENIGMA N^2 > http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman2 > Meaning thrice. Twice forward, once backwards. > > MILLENIUM LYRIC > http://vispo.com/animisms/timesuite/MilleniumLyricIntro.htm > A darkening song and then a new day. > > SEATTLE DRIFT > http://vispo.com/animisms/SeattleDrift.html > My first poem done in DHTML. While I was living in Seattle. > > THE IDEA OF ORDER AT KEY WEST RE-ORDERED > http://vispo.com/vismu/stevens.htm > The autumn of a summer song. > > OPPEN DO DOWN > http://vispo.com/vismu/OppenDoDown.htm > Interactive audio. > > RUDE LITTLE SONG > http://vispo.com/audio/shockwave/adam.html > Interactive sound poetry. > > ja > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:09:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline in the late 70s there were plenty of paper books with choices at the bottom of every page, of the open the door, go to p. 79, walk past, p. 78 sort; my younger sister read a lot of them I've got an unpublished poem that springs from the different ways a nintendo-style game controller is programmed game to game; since the poem consists of commands, it is my plan to "steer" it through several different texts, yielding some other poems viewed formally, like board games, the floorplan (Clue), the maze / road (Parchesi), the pattern (Go), was replaced by the documentary project (overlapping letters, diaries, maps, other pseudo "source" materials), the version (Frankenstein / Patchwork Girl) -- in many ways this has in common some ideas on organic form except with a different sensibility -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:09:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- Simon, -- thanks for posting this excellent site -- fiction as hiking -- or better -- blazing game trails cheers, heidi On 12/6/06, Simon DeDeo wrote: > > Just stepping in here -- a fantastic poetics-smart IF author is Emily > Short (actually a pseudonym.) I see she's updated her website since I last > looked at it -- > > http://emshort.home.mindspring.com/ > > The INFOCOM games of many years ago I think jumpstarted the whole genre -- > they had a highly sophisticated parser. Amazingly, the thing was > reverse-engineered by a Mathematician at Cambridge, and people can now > write INFOCOM source to compile with freeware applications. Really amazing > stuff really. > > There is amazingly quality stuff being written -- Em Short's pages have > links to sites where "ratings" guide you past the dross. > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:16:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Zoe Ward Subject: Greek poetry at Columbia 12/7 Comments: To: newyork@archipelagobooks.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Program in Hellenic Studies, Columbia University Invites you to a bilingual reading in Greek and English from Miltos Sachtouris=92s POEMS 1945-1971. Translated by Karen Emmerich. (Archipelago Books, 2006) & Nikos Alexiou=92s THE GARDEN OF LOST VESPERS: POEMS 1983-2003 (Seaburn Press, 2006) with poet Nikos Alexiou translator Karen Emmerich and recordings of readings by the late poet Miltos Sachtouris on Thursday, December 7th 517 Hamilton Hall, at 7:30 p.m. Nicos Alexiou was born in Volos, Greece, in 1959. He studied economics in Athens and worked in various trades. He came to the United States in the mid-80s and studied sociology. Since 1990 he teaches sociology and issues concerning the Greek-American community, at Queens College, CUNY. He has published three books of poetry. Many of his poems have been published in various American and Greek magazines and journals. His latest volume The Garden of Lost Vespers, is a bilingual edition of his trilogy. Karen Emmerich has translated work by Vassilis Vassilikos, Yiorgos Skabardonis, Rhea Galanake, and many Greek poets of the twentieth century. She has received translation grants and awards from the NEA, PEN, and the Modern Greek Studies Association. Zoe Ward Editor & Publicist Archipelago Books 25 Jay St. #203 Brooklyn NY 11201 T: 718.852.6134 F: 718.852.6135 Visit our new website! www.archipelagobooks.org= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:44:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roberto Harrison Subject: Os & Counter Daemons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi List Just wanted to announce that my first two books are recently available from SPD. "Os," with earlier work, is available from the following link: http://spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=9781930068353 And "Counter Daemons," is available from the following link: http://spdbooks.org/Details.asp?BookID=1933959002 Thanks. Roberto ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:08:04 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: above/ground press 2007 subscriptions Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT above/ground press 2007 subscriptions (poetry chapbooks that'll blow yr colon ; killing trees for literature since 1993...) For those who have been waiting, I am doing a large mailout in December / January (once I'm recovered from this grand tour); otherwise, 2007 above/ground press subscriptions (& renewals) are now available for $40 (outside Canada, $40 US), including chapbooks, asides + broadsheets, drop magazine, STANZAS magazine (for long poems/sequences) + The Peter F. Yacht Club (our writer's group magazine). The next issue of STANZAS features a poem by Margaret Christakos, and the next issue of The Peter F. Yacht Club is a Calgary special edited by Laurie Fuhr. Recent and forthcoming publications by Phil Hall (Toronto), Margaret Christakos (Toronto), rob mclennan (Ottawa), Andy Weaver (Toronto), Jesse Ferguson (Ottawa/Fredericton), Nicholas Lea (Ottawa), Lea Graham (Worcester), Max Middle (Ottawa), Jessica Smith (Mid-Atlantic), Nathaniel G. Moore (Toronto), Sharon Harris (Toronto), Jennifer Mulligan (Ottawa), John Newlove (Ottawa), Stephanie Bolster (Montreal), Stan Rogal (Ottawa), Karen Clavelle (Winnipeg), Barry McKinnon (Prince George), Wanda O'Connor (Ottawa/Montreal), Gil McElroy (Colborne), Shauna McCabe (Charlottetown), Cath Morris (Vancouver), Dennis Cooley (Winnipeg), Monty Reid (Ottawa) + others. Payable to rob mclennan, c/o above/ground press, 858 Somerset Street West, main floor, Ottawa Ontario Canada K1R 6R7. Some recent titles can be found here: http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2006/08/some-new-if-you-order-now.html More information with links here: http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2006/11/aboveground-press-2007-subscriptions.html rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:19:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: LA: getty wip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Getty Research Institute presents: Works in Progress Fall 2006 Discourse and Autonomy: Inventing the LA Art Girls PRESENTERS LA Art Girls RESPONDENT Jill Dawsey Curatorial Associate, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art Friday, December 8, 2006 2:00=964:30 p.m. Museum Lecture Hall, The Getty Center The LA Art Girls discuss the evolution and negotiation of collaborative practice. In the spirit of the process-oriented Works in Progress series, sixteen mem= bers of the LA Art Girls venture beyond "the doing"=97that is, "the making" of t= heir art=97to examine the debates, strategies, values, and relationships embedde= d in their individual and collective art practices. The LA Art Girls are a progressive collective of more than thirty practicing contemporary art- ists. Since forming in 2004, the group has produced several collaborative projects: Strange Love (2005), a corpse-style video remake of Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove (1964) exhibited at QED Gallery; Total Art Performance Event, a series of Fluxus-inspired performances at the Getty Center in June 2006; group exhibitions at Anna Helwing Gallery, Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions, and Angles Gallery; and a radio show on KBeach Global Radio. Presenters: Stephanie Allespach, SE Barnet, Allison Behrstock, Sydney Croskery, Catherine Daly, Karen Dunbar, Angela Ellsworth, Anoka Faruqee, April Friges, Anne Hars, Micol Hebron, Dawn Kasper, Nancy Popp, Ambika Samarthya, Felis Stella, Elizabeth Tremante Respondent: Jill Dawsey, curatorial associate of painting and sculpture at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. Dawsey is currently a visiting professor in the Department of Art History at the University of California, Irvine. Admission to this event is free. To attend, please make a reservation by visiting www.getty.edu or calling (310) 440-7300. Note, late arrivals cannot be guaranteed seating. Parking is free with a reservation, or $8.00 per car without a reservation. The Getty Research Institute 1200 Getty Center Drive, Suite 1100 Los Angeles, CA 90049-1688 www.getty.edu --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com The ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:08:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What I'd like to find a way to is a way to make textual games > that are like Chess or Tetris. That is, Games that start from a > very simple set of rules and from which can be generated more > game playing experiences than an individual could ever hope to > achieve in a lifetime. Part of me wants to define "surfing the > internet" as that kind of game. I don't know how, precisely, to > do it, but I have some ideas. I think part of it has to do with > the nature of narrative. That is, it's not really possible to > create an open ended narrative. even if you give a large number > of options, a story requires a story structure and that's going > to create a finite number of possibilities. I have never been overly drawn to interactive fiction, myself. I'm not sure why. It might have to do with being more interested in the choices the author and characters make than in making choices myself, in the story world. My choices in that situation are typically to continue or not, read and interpret, reflect. Think of the story in relation to my own life and those of others. And if continuing, then maybe I'll hunt around the book looking for interesting parts. I rarely read a book from start to finish. Only if it is stronly sequential and pleasurably so. Catherine mentions books from the 70's that were hypertextual but on paper. I think a prob with a lot of computer hypertexts is they would better be on paper with an interesting footnote system. On a computer system, with the way it's typically working with text, image, motion, sound, and app/code, i dunno, mono media often seems quaint. Like a movie of scrolling text. Isou, one of my faves, seems to be up to that in his film on ubu.com. Quaint except in specific contexts such as email. Or, in a computing situation, where the app is intelligently or otherwise interestingly generative. Like perhaps in what you're imagining. I try to make engaging, pleasurable, and significant choices available to the wreader. My work is intensely engaged with language but isn't dull about image, sound, and programming. I'm involved with them all as a kind of writing. I try to put it all together, think compositionally through various media and arts. Ultimately, I think that's more significant in digital literature than quaintly avoiding these sorts of issues presented by computer systems. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 01:51:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Work on YouTube MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Work on YouTube Some work moved to youtube where it might be easier to watch - I've also tried for metacafe.com because they pay and we're desperate - they pay if there are enough viewers - no art category - something about cool stuff - anyway none of the uploads worked; it would read my .mp4 or .mov files which went thru easily on youtube. Meanwhile on youtube everything's blurred out, but at least there in one form or another. And anyway, enjoy. And tell me what's wrong with metacafe. And send lots of money. Seriously. Lots and lots of money. - Alan PS and tell you friends about it and everyone will be happy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZt-LhMbNdg avalanche http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nzWg0E_Q50 prosthetic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh0dG0s6x40 jump http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BkpQe6z3HQ werethere http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxbZCJdF7bE doomed dancer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR0ajvOR-pE scan24s.mov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMH0AvImrYY maudpringychurch.mp4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYReBqmf8js bulb1.mp4 avatar interior http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qQ0K-phiFY duetavatargrange http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNCLXGInC1Y bulbmp4.mov avatar exterior http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvIYKavXbi4 Tube Scan (vacuum tube deconstruction) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFqKpjd8k-I agzither - Alpine Zither / Access Grid ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 03:10:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: UNRELATED TO LIST, BUT...BBC News - Afghan golden treasure on display In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://212.58.226.40/1/hi/world/south_asia/6215002.stm As the chaos intensified in the late 1990s, tribal factions and then the Taleban attacked a vault in the grounds of the presidential palace in Kabul, trying to find the treasure they suspected was inside, but the inner doors stood firm. Just a handful of people knew what was there - and finally, in 2004, the gold was uncovered, hidden in modest crates under piles of old currency. --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:07:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: L Trent Subject: 21 Stars Review Issue #3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The third issue of 21 Stars Review ( http://sundress.net/21stars) is up! Featuring work by Shane Allison, John Steven Cummins, Martha Deed, Doug Draime, Ricky Garni, Carrie Grinstead, Frank Haberle, Donald Illich, Halvard Johnson, Nathan Klose, Andrew Lundwall and Sheila Murphy, AE Reiff, and Lori Scoby Some samples: from *Montana Line* by Lori Scoby My grandfather once told me to search for what you want until you find it. He also told me that I should eat fried eggs every day, that red is the color of hell and should never be worn, and that cars weren't worth the trouble. from *The Day of the Light-Bearers* by Halvard Johnson Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, we are fit and healthy, those of us gathering at the monument to our unknown leader, he whose face was familiar to all of us who did not know it, who remembered little if anything about him. Seemingly, our displays of loyalty have displeased him, though we do not know why they should. Our spirits are dampened by his contempt for our abiding love for him... Please feel free to e-mail comments, suggestions, and raves to letitia.trent@gmail.com-- I'll pass your comments along to the contributors. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:17:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: poetry books for bogota MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline friends, -- making a list of stuff to take back there in 07 -- there are poets there who would be interested in reading some of y'all's work -- i can't take marxist stuff, or books illustrated with pix of che guevara -- or any sort of pro us recruiting dope for the president or military -- but if you have more pacifist type poetry -- or work in translation finding echoes and chords unexpectedly -- -- i am not an expert on the politics in-country there -- -- please do send a list of books tho' with thanks, -h -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:49:14 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :UNRELATED TO LIST, BUT...BBC News - Afghan golden treasure on display In-Reply-To: <970015.12552.qm@web54604.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable NOWHERE OVER THE RAINBOW as the late 1990s intensified tribal chaos stood firm in the grounds of hidden presidential factions just a handful of people suspected what was there inside the inner of 2004 piles of old currency a modest and uncovered treasure Michael --Michael A. Soubbotnik Universit=E9 de Marne-la-Vall=E9e le 7/12/06 12:10, Alexander Jorgensen =E0 jorgensen_a@YAHOO.COM a =E9crit=A0: > http://212.58.226.40/1/hi/world/south_asia/6215002.stm >=20 > As the chaos intensified in the late 1990s, tribal > factions and then the Taleban attacked a vault in the > grounds of the presidential palace in Kabul, trying to > find the treasure they suspected was inside, but the > inner doors stood firm. >=20 > Just a handful of people knew what was there - and > finally, in 2004, the gold was uncovered, hidden in > modest crates under piles of old currency. >=20 >=20 > --- >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:25:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: ot: need help with outlook express MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, i'm trying to do reconfigure my outlook preferences so i can send mail (for an upcoming event) through outlook while away from home. any backchannel suggestions would be greatly appreciated. thanks, david ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Truscott Subject: December 12: Fiorentino and Pettet in Toronto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable December 12, 7:30 p.m. JON PAUL FIORENTINO and SIMON PETTET (blurbs and bios below) Test Reading Series Mercer Union, A Centre for Contemporary Art 37 Lisgar Street, Toronto pwyc more information: testreading.org Also, please note that recordings of the last two installments, featuring Bill Kennedy, Rob Read, Jessica Smith, Souvankham Thammavongsa, and Darren Wershler-Henry, are available at www.testreading.org/recordings.html. Hope to see you there, Mark JON PAUL FIORENTINO's most recent book of poetry is The Theory of the Loser Class (Coach House Books, 2006). He is the author of the poetry book Hello Serotonin (Coach House Books, 2004) and the humour book Asthmatica (Insomniac Press, 2005). "Fiorentino is smart and deft."=97Globe and Mail "Fiorentino deserves your attention."=97Dose SIMON PETTET is an internationally renowned English-born poet, long-time resident of New York's Lower East Side. His new book of poems is called More Winnowed Fragments, and his Selected Poems is still in print and available from the same publisher, Talisman. He is the author of two classic collaborations with photographer-filmmaker Rudy Burckhardt, Conversations About Everything and Talking Pictures, and the editor of the Selected Art Writings of the Pulitzer-prize-winning "New York School" poet James Schuyler. "He sounds those same simplicities of profound music Blake also knew. He moves with a deft and practiced quiet.=85He speaks the truth."=97Rober= t Creeley "Like Beethoven's Bagatelles, Simon Pettet's short poems have a great deal to say, and their seemingly modest dimensions help rather than hinder his saying it."=97John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:44:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: rattapallax dvd at the potenza int. film festival, italy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends: Rattapallax DVD magazine is being featured at the Potenza International Film Festival in Naples, Italy from Dec 1 to 9, 2006. I will be presenting the DVD and discussing poetry films and other topics. More information on the festival at http://www.potenzafilmfestival.it Rattapallax DVD is a fusion between contemporary writing and film. Featured in the DVD are films and audio works by Abbas Kiarostami, Takeshi Kitano, Joyce Carol Oates, Ishle Park, Paul Bowles, Sherman Alexie, Elvira Hernandez, Fabrício Carpinejar, Anne Waldman, Martín Espada, Arnaldo Antunes and many others. ONLY $6! More info at http://www.rattapallax.com Cheers Ram Devineni Publisher Rattapallax Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 13:37:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: (setq body body '(flesh '(flesh strings strings lungs lungs heart heart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (setq body body '(flesh '(flesh strings strings lungs lungs heart heart brain brain blood blood mass)) mass)) (setq (flesh mass) blood soul '(mass '(mass air air steam steam stream stream blocks blocks mess mess senseless)) senseless)) (setq (mass senseless) mess (append '((body) (mind))) ((body) (mind)) + mind (mind) mind (flesh) '((body) (soul))) (mind) (soul)) (assoc 'tenor mind) nil 'soul (soul) 'body (body) variable flesh has no variable value flesh 'mind 'flesh hersoul) hersoul '(mind (setq mind)) body (mind (list '(soul ((soul (setq body '(flesh strings lungs heart brain blood mass)) (flesh strings lungs heart brain blood mass) (setq soul '(mass air steam stream blocks mess senseless)) (mass air steam stream blocks mess senseless) (append '((body) (mind))) ((body) (mind)) body + soul (flesh strings lungs heart brain blood mass) body (mass air steam stream blocks mess senseless) (setq mind '((body) (mind) (flesh) (soul))) ((body) (flesh) (soul)) (assoc 'tenor mind) nil (assoc 'soul mind) (soul) (assoc 'body mind) (body) mind ((body) (flesh) (soul)) body (flesh strings lungs heart brain blood mass) soul variable flesh has no value (mass air steam stream blocks mess senseless) (setq 'mind ((body) (soul))) ((body) (soul)) (assoc 'body mind) (body) (assoc 'flesh mind) nil (assoc 'mind hersoul) hersoul has no value (setq hersoul '(mind body soul mind)) (mind body soul mind) mind ((body) (soul)) body (flesh strings lungs heart brain blood mass) soul (mass air steam stream blocks mess senseless) hersoul (mind body soul mind) flesh variable flesh has no value (list '(soul body mind)) ((soul body mind)) hersoul (mind body soul mind) body (flesh strings lungs heart brain blood mass) soul (mass air steam stream blocks mess senseless) (setq '(flesh body '(flesh '(flesh strings strings lungs lungs heart heart body brain mass)) blood (setq mass)) mass) (flesh '(mass mass) brain soul blood '(mass blood air steam steam stream stream blocks blocks mess mess air senseless)) senseless)) (mass (mass senseless) senseless) (append (append '((body) '((body) (mind))) ((body) (mind)) + mind mind (mind) (mind) mind (flesh) '((body) (soul))) (mind) (soul)) + (assoc 'tenor mind) nil 'soul (soul) 'body (body) variable has flesh no has variable no value value 'mind 'mind hersoul) 'flesh variable hersoul) flesh hersoul '(mind '(mind (setq mind)) body (mind (list (list '(soul '(soul ((soul ((soul hersoul === Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:06:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > I try to make engaging, pleasurable, and significant choices available to > the wreader. My work is intensely engaged with language but isn't dull about > image, sound, and programming. I'm involved with them all as a kind of > writing. I try to put it all together, think compositionally through various > media and arts. Ultimately, I think that's more significant in digital > literature than quaintly avoiding these sorts of issues presented by > computer systems. I see your point, but it's also a question that comes up for me a lot, particularly with visual poetry created digitally like a lot (I won't say all) of your or Ciccariello's pieces, is i'm not sure how to address it as a reader. Some things I look at like i would look at visual art, or the language element is minimized in some other way. for example your "millenium lyric" (which I love, by the way, and can click on for quite some time before i've had enough). But i look at it, and read it, almost like musical notation. The zeros to me have a sort of sound quality to them for me that works with the title "lyric" in a way that short circuits linguistic processing for me and i just here color changing doo-wop. The thing that appeals to me about IF is 1.) the fact that it's dialogic and 2.) the limitations in the medium that I think you are correct in describing as quaint. those limitations force an author and reader to work strictly within the bounds of not just written verbal language, but a limited subset of that so far as the commands and things go. What complicates things, of course, is making the language sufficiently generative while maintaining narrative to make the whole thing interesting. Anyway, before i start rambling... thanks for the insights, Jason ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new(ish) on rob's clever blog Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new(ish) on rob's clever blog -- Avatar by Sharon Harris -- Ongoing notes, early December 2006 (the Olive Reading & chapbook series; three days in Spain, Atelier 78; NOON: Journal of the Short Poem; Marjorie Welish's The Windows Flew Open, Burning Deck) -- Richard Brautigan: Essays on the Writings and Life, edited by John F. Barber -- Don McKay: Essays on His Works, edited by Brian Bartlett -- Tour notes, day twenty-six to thirty; November 26-30, Toronto to Ottawa ON -- above/ground press, 2007 subscriptions -- new poetry workshops at Collected Works Bookstore, Ottawa -- Ottawa poet Riley Tench, d. November 2006 -- Tour notes, day twenty-three to twenty-five; November 23-25, leaving Winnipeg MB to Toronto ON -- an old photo of George Bowering (from the collection of Monty Reid) -- P. K. Page Founders Award for Poetry -- Tour notes, day twenty to twenty-two; November 20-22, Winnipeg MB -- Ongoing notes: mid-November 2006 -- Tour notes, day nineteen; November 19, arriving Winnipeg MB -- Tour notes, day eighteen; November 18, leaving Edmonton AB -- Tour notes, day twelve to seventeen; November 12-17, Edmonton to Calgary to Edmonton AB -- span-o (the small press action network - ottawa) & The Mercury Press (Toronto) present: a Mercury Press launch -- Two from Pedlar: good meat, poems by Dani Couture & The Book of Skeletons, poems by Rachel Vigier -- Tour notes, day eight to eleven; November 8-11, Vancouver to Salt Spring Island to Vancouver BC to Edmonton AB -- a recent photograph of George Bowering and David W. McFadden -- Alayna Munce, When I Was Young & In My Prime -- Ongoing notes, November 2006 (Barry McKinnon's in the millennium, part 3, Gorse Press; George Bowering's A Knot of Light, No Press) -- Tour notes, day five to seven; November 5-7, Vancouver BC -- Robert Allen: 1946-2006 -- Tour notes, day three to four; November 3-4, Prince George to Vancouver BC -- Tour report: Prince George UNBC reading photos (provided by Rob Budde): -- Jacqueline Turner's Seven into Even -- Tour notes, day one to two; November 1-2, Ottawa ON to Vancouver to Prince George BC -- Monica Youn's Barter -- poem for the newly renovated museum of nature -- Bruce Whiteman's The Invisible World is in Decline www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com + some other other new things at the Chaudiere Books blog, www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 22:03:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Ren's Blog http://sidesteppingreal.blogspot.com Thursday, December 07, 2006 Censorship, Religion & Sex (update) Sometimes things get lost in translation before they ever leave the source. An update and a correction regarding Ekbal Baraka. While I posted last month that her book had been confiscated by the Egyptian Mufti, a new email from her makes it clear that this was inaccurate. The Mufti had been attempting to confiscate and ban the book. As stated in the earlier post, he had also been trying to forbid her from writing and publishing in Egypt. In a letter addressed the Chair of International PEN's Women Writers Committee and myself, as their Human Rights Commissioner, Baraka gives a brief update of the situation. The Minister of Culture appeared on television where he "criticized the [compulsory use of the] Hijab" on television. This caused a conflict between the Minister and members of Parliament who have demanded an apology. The Minister of Culture has held his ground, saying that he had been expressing his private views- as a citizen- and not speaking as the Minister of Culture. This has lead to an active debate among intellectuals. It is unclear from the email who these "intellectuals"* Baraka mentions are- but this group is supporting the Minister of Culture's right to freedom of expression and, furthermore, they are publicly declaring a refusal to force women to wear the veil on the grounds that there is no basis for compulsory veiling in the Qur'an. These proponents of free speech are quoting Baraka's book in these discussions. Baraka points out that the female students of Al Azhar have demonstrated against Baraka, the Minster of Culture and their supporters. The daily newspaper Al Ahram ** has stopped publishing Baraka's weekly column. Baraka was able to obtain a copy of the letter in which the Mufti recommends confiscating her book, and a lawyer representing the Journalists' Syndicate is preparing to sue the Mufti and The Council for Religious Researches. Despite the attempts to silence Baraka- and, of course, due to the attempts to silence her- her book has sold very well and she has been interviewed by several television programs and newspapers. She is hoping the book will be translated into English. The debate continues. * Please note that I put the word intellectuals in quotes because I don't know how else to define the group of people Baraka is referring to. I am conscious that it could appear that I am contrasting the female university students from intellectuals. I am not. ** The link is not to the newspaper Baraka writes for. It is to an English weekly version that I believe is published by the same organization. Also, please don't comment to enlighten me in regard to the meaning of the word hajib and it's relationship to the veil. The conflict described above, and as Baraka describes it, is not about modesty, it is about the compulsory use of the veil. Baraka uses the term hajib in this debate, and her opponents are not arguing semantics. ______ Ren Powell post@renpowell.com www.sidesteppingreal.blogspot.com www.icorn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:01:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cheryl burket Subject: kari edwards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kari edwards- she was the real deal. Phenomenal writer. I'm taking the liberty of posting something she wrote and which appeared in Tarpaulin Sky vol. 4 #1... When we last met- back in 04, I think, for lunch here in the city, and were talking about writing and student loans and how to live as poets- she said, "Time is running out." She had an urgency to her. She was always generous in her criticisms of my work and very sharing about where to send poems, etc. Zero attitude. Wherever she is, may she continue to write and be kari. God I love this piece. It about knocked me to the ground: (piece by)kari edwards let us say goodbye let's get serious, say good-bye, I love you, so long, been nice, someone's got to die, waiting for another on time, A-bomb. Cut off, collectively lost, as long as you believe in, as long as you think, as you believe in thinking in believing in . . . click your heels, repeat after me, we are not talking proxy portraits, or ideological traditional sophist, or single issue essential, or utopian politicians into an out of time, falling in and out of the service of "truth," to another, for another, in love with "truth." Repeating, you have to believe, you must believe, listen to the mother and father, read books and repeat after me, I can not represent myself, we must represent the not representative whole impossible to represent, the higher broader bigger blogger. So, let's get personal, get serious and translate violence into a form, wondering are there more morals coming? We all can not wait to read more of the same long neck gods talking to the pigs, the pigs to the horses, and the mysterious shadow making mysterious hand motions, waiting to dine. The tableau is set, you arrive, there is ample bread, plenty of plenty, translation disappears, there is no need for need, an argument begins, we all go hungry, start a war of wars, the divine majority sings creation creation songs in the celestial cathedral till dawn . . . we say good-bye I love you someone has to die. kari edwards (posted by)cheryl burket san francisco Click for free info on criminal justice degrees and make $150K/ year

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========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 12/11 - 12/15 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Please join us next week for three events. Also, check our website for details on the 33rd Annual New Years Day Marathon. www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php Please contact us if you=A1=AFd like to donate food, books or volunteer-time on the 1st of January. Much love, The Poetry Project Monday, December 11, 8:00 pm Michael Cross & Myung Mi Kim Michael Cross edited Involuntary Vision: after Akira Kurosawa=A1=AFs Dreams (Avenue B, 2003), and is currently editing an anthology of the George Oppen Memorial Lectures at San Francisco State University. He publishes Atticus/Finch Chapbooks (www.atticusfinch.org), and his first book, in felt treeling, is forthcoming from Tucson, Arizona's Chax Press. He often pretends to be a Ph.D. candidate in the Poetics Program at SUNY Buffalo. Myung Mi Kim is the author of the latest Atticus/Finch book, River Antes, a= s well as the collections Commons, Spelt, The Bounty, and Under Flag. She is presently on faculty in the Poetics Program at SUNY Buffalo. Wednesday, December 13, 8:00 pm Mark Pawlak & Bill Zavatsky Mark Pawlak was born and raised in Buffalo and has lived in the Boston area for most of the past 40 years. He is the author of five poetry collections, most recently, Official Versions (2006). His poetry and prose has appeared in The Best American Poetry 2006 (Billy Collins, ed.), New American Writing= , Exquisite Corpse, Mother Jones, The Saint Ann's Review, Terra Incognito and The World, among other places. In addition, he is editor of four anthologies, most recently, Present/Tense: Poets in the World, an anthology of contemporary American political poetry. He also co-edited Shooting the Rat: Outstanding Poems and Stories by High School Writers, the third in a series of anthologies drawn from the celebrated high school section of Hanging Loose magazine, of which he has been an editor since 1980. Pawlak i= s Director of Academic Support Programs at UMass Boston, where he teaches mathematics. Bill Zavatsky, born and raised in Bridgeport, Connecticut, has lived in New York City since 1965. He has published two collections of poems, Theories of Rain and Other Poems and Where X Marks the Spot. He translated The Poems of A. O. Barnabooth by Valery Larbaud with Ron Padgett= , and his translations of Robert Desnos appear in The Random House Book of Twentieth-century French Poetry. His co-translation of Earthlight: Poems by Andr=A8=A6 Breton, with Zack Rogow, won the PEN/Book-of-the-Month Translation Prize in 1993. He taught poetry writing classes for the Teachers and Writer= s Collaborative for many years, and also with Ron Padgett edited The Whole Word Catalogue II for TWC. He also led workshops for two years at the Poetr= y Project back in the '70s. Zavatsky has published poems as liner notes to si= x CDs by the jazz pianist Marc Copland, most recently Copland=A1=AFs duo-piano CD with Bill Carrothers, No Choice, and the trio album called Modinha. His =A1=B0Elegy=A1=B1 for Bill Evans was recently reissued with Evans=A1=AF CD, You Must Believe in Spring. Bill Zavatsky has taught English at the Trinity School i= n Manhattan since 1987. Friday, December 15, 10:30 pm A Very Brodey Christmas! Have yourself a Very Brodey Christmas! Celebrate any holiday with the poems of Jim Brodey and music by Dear Old Stockholm Syndrome. Featuring readings of Brodey's poems by Richard Hell, John Coletti, Lewis Warsh, Erica Kaufman= , Dustin Williamson, Anselm Berrigan, Joel Lewis and maybe more. Co-curated with Jim Behrle. Read about Jim Brodey (1942-1993) here. Richard Hell's most recent CD is the 2005 retrospective Spurts from Warner/Rhino. His novel Godlike came out in 2005 too. He's at work on a boo= k of memories. John Coletti grew up in Santa Rosa, California and Portland, Oregon before moving to New York City thirteen years ago. He is the author of Physical Kind (Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs/Boku Books 2005), The New Normalcy (BoogLit 2002), and Street Debris (Fell Swoop 2005), a collaboration with poet Greg Fuchs with whom he also co-edits Open 24 Hours Press. Lewis Warsh's most recent books include The Origin of the World, Touch of the Whip, Ted's Favorite Skirt and Debtor's Prison (in collaboration with Julie Harrison). Two new chapbooks, The Flea Market in Kiel and Flight Test, appeared in 2006. He is co-editor with Anne Waldman o= f The Angel Hair Anthology, editor and publisher of United Artists Books, and Associate Professor in the English Department at Long Island University in Brooklyn. A new novel, A Place in the Sun, is forthcoming in 2007. Erica Kaufman is the co-curator of the belladonna* reading series and small press= . She has a few chapbooks and a few more to come and her poems can be found i= n places like Jubilat, Puppy Flowers, Bombay Gin and the tiny. She lives in Brooklyn and loves her puggle. Dustin Williamson edits Rust Buckle and co-publishes Currency Press with Andrew Mister. They have put out no books. Anselm Berrigan is still waiting for Jim Brodey to leave his apartment. Jim Behrle had the best roommate ever and is the author of She's My Best Friend (Pressed Wafer, 2006). Joel Lewis just came back from Iceland! we will miss you kari kari edwards=20 1954 - 2006 this is duration this is an indefinite continuation this is a continuation of the indefinite this is a claim number=A1=AFs damp residue sealed dream this is tomorrow=A1=AFs tomorrow - wandering in a murmur of midnight this is duration spark and this is duration on the edge of intimacy this could be the sound of a child=A1=AFs cry the body that becomes ecstasy from Obedience=20 Myung Mi Kim 716 Grief would have so a mark Wilt and mold Diminishing possibility of cucumber and pole bean vine Human face worn by animals Avowal worried by use Breakfall of nations The gnawed pleasure boats from COMMONS Bill Zavatsky=20 Moondog =20 =20 I had come to New York City=A1=AA wonders in the streets!: a man whose name was Moondog stood in midtown building niches in his Viking get-up=A1=AAleather clothes, helmet, a cloak, leather straps and little wooden boxes that hung at his knees with printed papers in them that turned out to be his music. Once I bought a few of them, ten cents each, but couldn=A1=AFt make sense of them; threw them away, though every few years I=A1=AFd find them and try to figure them out. Moondog in his Viking helmet, with horns! Before he died Columbia Records recorded some of his compositions, and then again he was recorded in another country where he=A1=AFd moved. Google =A1=B0Moondog=A1=B1 and find the site. . . . The first time I saw him I thought that he was a statue. I walked up and touched him. =A1=B0Hey!=A1=B1 he cried, and I leaped back in horror. Mark Pawlak =20 All the News--September 23, 2001 =20 Q: Why aren't there any Wal-Marts in Afghanistan? A: Because they're all Targets. --Popular American joke, 2001 =20 According to the Times, "Air Force bombers are heading toward distant airfields to fight a shadowy foe flitting through the mountains in a deeply hostile land already so poor and so ruined by two decades of war that it is virtually bereft of targets." =20 =20 "FORGET THE PAST,"=20 the headline instructs. "IT'S A WAR UNLIKE ANY OTHER." Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Fall Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=A1=AFd like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a lin= e at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 19:00:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Slaughter, William" Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 40 (2006) Roger W. Hecht | The Rumsfeld Sestina Roger W. Hecht is the author of two books, LUNCH AT THE TABLE OF OPPOSITES from Red Dancefloor Press, 1997, and THE ERIE CANAL READER from Syracuse University Press, 2003. His poems have appeared in Denver Quarterly, Columbia Poetry Review, and Diagram. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 19:43:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: early heads up cause we'll be out of town til 2 days before this and off email as well Comments: cc: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, flint@artphobia.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit loren mazzancane - connors / steve dalachinsky aki onda / mark zegans poetryplayingmusic feruary 9, 2007 8 pm ISSUE Project Room 400 Carroll Street - Brooklyn, NY 11213 www.issueprojectroom.org Telephone 718-330-0313 info@issueprojectroom.org Brooklyn-bound R train to Union St. Walk 3 blocks west; left onto Nevins; right onto Carroll ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 21:18:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents The Eagles=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B9?= Hotel California and Nada Gordon Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward --------------- Boog City's Classic Albums Live presents for the album=B9s 30th anniversary The Eagles=B9 Hotel California Thurs. Dec. 14, 8:00 p.m., $7 Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery NYC With a reading from California native Nada Gordon and then the album performed live by Cuomo! Debe Dalton Sean T. Hanratty=20 The Sewing Circle Hosted by Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum Directions: F train to Second Avenue, or 6 train to Bleecker Street. Venue is at foot of 1st Street, between Houston and Bleecker streets, across from the late CBGB's. For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664) * editor@boogcity.com * www.bowerypoetry.com *Cuomo! http://cuomogroup.net/ *Debe Dalton http://www.myspace.com/debedalton *Nada Gordon http://ululate.blogspot.com/ *Sean T. Hanratty http://www.myspace.com/seanthanratty *The Sewing Circle http://www.myspace.com/thesewingcircle artist bios are at the end of this email --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 -- bios: *Boog City is a New York City-based small press now in its 16th year and East Village community newspaper of the same name. It has also published 35 volumes of poetry and various magazines, featuring work by Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti among others, and theme issues on baseball, women=B9s writing, and Louisville, KY. It hosts and curates two regular performance series--d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press, where each month a non-NYC small press and its writers and a musical act of their choosing is hosted at Chelsea's ACA Galleries; and Classic Albums Live, where 4-13 local musical acts perform a classic album live at venues including The Bowery Poetry Club, CBGB's, and The Knitting Factory. Past albums have included Elvis Costello, My Aim is True; Nirvana, Nevermind; an= d Liz Phair, Exile in Guyville. *Cuomo! Brooklyn folk/punk act Cuomo! take the ethics of simple song structure and upbeat energy of The Ramones or The Clash, then applies the lyrical sensibilities and songwriting sophistication of Bob Dylan or Simon & Garfunkel. These combined elements have created a stripped down and earthy folk aesthetic steeped with a lyrical quality of honest cynicism and lonely optimism that attempts to bring a refreshingly humble approach to socially conscious and political songwriting. Songwriter Dave Cuomo is also co-founder and editor of Urban Folk, NYC's indy folk magazine. After recently signing with Jersey roots/punk label, Ever Reviled Records, Cuomo! is preparing for the summer release of their debut album Holiday and accompanying national tour in the fall. *Debe Dalton Debe Dalton stopped writing songs around the time of Hotel California, and started writing again just about the end of the most recent Eagles=B9 tour. Coincidence? Possibly. Debe never stopped performing her banjo-centric old-timey folk & roll; she'= s been doing cover songs longer than most of you folk have even heard of music. But it's what she does, because, as she sings so eloquently in =B3Ed's Song,=B2 =B3I have to play.=B2 *Nada Gordon Nada Gordon was born in Oakland, California. She is the author of foriegnn bodie, Are Not Our Lowing Heifers Sleeker than Night-Swollen Mushrooms?, Swoon, and V. Imp. Folly is forthcoming in the spring. *Sean T. Hanratty Sean T. is straight outta Brooklyn and on his way into your shower, by way of you singing his memorably melodic and incredibly enchanting songs in the shower, of course... *The Sewing Circle The Sewing Circle is a musical collective centered around keyboardist/multi-instrumentalist Preston Spurlock, with frequent collaborations from his first cousin Chase McGuire. The project started in West Palm Beach, Florida in the summer of 2003. Since then, they have recorded two full albums and are currently working on a third, and have had several live performances. The Sewing Circle specializes in songs about cryptozoology, extinction, and sleep. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 19:54:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I try to make engaging, pleasurable, and significant choices > > available to > > the wreader. My work is intensely engaged with language but > > isn't dull about > > image, sound, and programming. I'm involved with them all as a kind of > > writing. I try to put it all together, think compositionally > > through various > > media and arts. Ultimately, I think that's more significant in digital > > literature than quaintly avoiding these sorts of issues presented by > > computer systems. > > I see your point, but it's also a question that comes up for me a > lot, particularly with visual poetry created digitally like a lot > (I won't say all) of your or Ciccariello's pieces, is i'm not > sure how to address it as a reader. Some things I look at like i > would look at visual art, or the language element is minimized in > some other way. for example your "millenium lyric" (which I love, > by the way, and can click on for quite some time before i've had > enough). But i look at it, and read it, almost like musical > notation. The zeros to me have a sort of sound quality to them > for me that works with the title "lyric" in a way that short > circuits linguistic processing for me and i just here color > changing doo-wop. They're actually O's, not 0's. The shape of an O is usually more full-bodied than a 0 in fonts where the character has body. The O is more plump, typically, than the 0. More circular on the outside; the inner ellipse is more gracefully curved, typically, than the inner oval of the 0; the contrast between the outer and inner ellipses of the O is relatively worthy of the human significance of O, whereas 0 has been made with a less attractive hole and overall geometry. O is plump, pregnant, receptive, sometimes orgasmic; 0 is the void. The O carries more human weight. But the piece does also play on the possibility they could be zeros, sure. I wrote the engine for Millenium Lyric before deciding on the text. And then tried out all sorts of texts. Finally went with the texts of Millenium Lyric and Timepiece (which has the same engine). The strings are placed in a circular queue. Mary, to whom the piece is dedicated, is a painter who has a thing about circles. Timepiece is for another Seattle friend, Joe Keppler, who has a thing about time. Timepiece actually has several whole words in it. > The thing that appeals to me about IF is 1.) the fact that it's > dialogic and 2.) the limitations in the medium that I think you > are correct in describing as quaint. those limitations force an > author and reader to work strictly within the bounds of not just > written verbal language, but a limited subset of that so far as > the commands and things go. What complicates things, of course, > is making the language sufficiently generative while maintaining > narrative to make the whole thing interesting. You sent a link to a tool for rolling one's own. I don't really want to roll my own at the mo, but I'd be interested in some links to interesting interactive fiction by others. Sandy sent one link already. Well, maybe interactive fiction is early still, like most of the interactive arts are. i can see interactive fiction being selectively incorporated into more conventional computer games. John Carmack, one of the main DOOM programmers, said some time ago "Story in games is like story in pornos. Everybody expects it, but it isn't very important." Yet I note that one of the main changes in DOOM 3 is much more narrative matter. So he must have changed his mind or something. I went to a conference in Toronto recently on computer games. Jim Bizzocchi gave a talk. He teaches in Vancouver (grew up in Detroit and went to High school with Diana Ross). He teaches narrative in games and interactive art. I repeated Carmack's remark to him. He said it isn't really whether narrative is important to games, but how it is. That sounds likely to me. Narrative is operative at some level in most computer games. But it's also true that the story in most computer games is aimed at kids. Not exactly Oedipus Rex. Maybe interesting developments in interactive fiction can help computer games move into something more seriously dramatic. I've only read one article in the new york review of books on any digital writing. ever. and it dumped on digital fiction. one point it made, though, that i recall liking: how we think of story and narrative says a lot about how we think of ourselves; we understand much of our lives (or not) in narratives of one sort or another; any interesting changes in how we think of story are sure to have important consequences in how we think of ourselves. Maybe that's one of the most interesting possibilities of interactive fiction. ja ja ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:23:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jason, and all, -- there are a couple questions i have about this fascinating discussion -- this seems to be a highly episodic form -- so i would question how "narrative" it really is, whether it is more like a series of lyrical moments -- secondly -- if the narrative is that disjointed, can it be called narrative -- what is meant by "narrative" here -- i would question notions of plot and closure, whether they really exist in interactive fiction -- -- i think of the exploratory qualities of the form -- but also an abstraction of the form might be, exploratory -- heidi On 12/7/06, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > I try to make engaging, pleasurable, and significant choices available > to > > the wreader. My work is intensely engaged with language but isn't dull > about > > image, sound, and programming. I'm involved with them all as a kind of > > writing. I try to put it all together, think compositionally through > various > > media and arts. Ultimately, I think that's more significant in digital > > literature than quaintly avoiding these sorts of issues presented by > > computer systems. > > I see your point, but it's also a question that comes up for me a lot, > particularly with visual poetry created digitally like a lot (I won't say > all) of your or Ciccariello's pieces, is i'm not sure how to address it as a > reader. Some things I look at like i would look at visual art, or the > language element is minimized in some other way. for example your "millenium > lyric" (which I love, by the way, and can click on for quite some time > before i've had enough). But i look at it, and read it, almost like musical > notation. The zeros to me have a sort of sound quality to them for me that > works with the title "lyric" in a way that short circuits linguistic > processing for me and i just here color changing doo-wop. > > The thing that appeals to me about IF is 1.) the fact that it's dialogic > and 2.) the limitations in the medium that I think you are correct in > describing as quaint. those limitations force an author and reader to work > strictly within the bounds of not just written verbal language, but a > limited subset of that so far as the commands and things go. What > complicates things, of course, is making the language sufficiently > generative while maintaining narrative to make the whole thing interesting. > > Anyway, before i start rambling... > thanks for the insights, > Jason > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:59:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Williams' Territory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you NY/NJ area folks haven't made the pilgrimage to Williams' house in Rutherford, I'd recommend taking that pleasant little trip. The public library, just across the street also has some Williams artifacts, including his desk, which are being prepared for display. There are several good looking restaurants right on the main drag by his house. We went for "Risotto" and it was excellent. More details on the blog on www.myspace.com/avantretro Later Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:19:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Williams' Territory 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry to clutter the listserv, but I don't want any of you to be misled. Williams' house at 9 Ridge Road is not an "Historic House"...that is, it's not open to the public...some normal citizens (another doctor) live there. So if you go, realize you merely get to walk around it and think about the poems that were written there without going inside to look around. Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:20:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: poetry as export product Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Rejoice! the us govt and consular services are making efforts to export poetry & words of the finest ilk. In other words, members of wordsinhere have been invited to perform in Zagreb, Croatia, and will do so next week. If there are any connections of people living in that area, please forward or backtrack cralan@wordsinhere.com we=B9d love to meet up with writers for the couple of days we are there Megan Garr Robert Glick Cralan Kelder Will be reading in Zagreb wednesday december 13th at Profil bookstore at 19.30 in the evening. Profil Megastore Bogoviceva 7 music by Lindsey Horner Group as part of NY Week which, to my knowledge, is a photograph exhibition of fotos of NY. The poster is in Croatian, and mine=B9s rusty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:22:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Re: rattapallax dvd at the potenza int. film festival, italy In-Reply-To: <20061207174430.20855.qmail@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hey ram sounds great good luck with this. susan maurer >From: Ram Devineni >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: rattapallax dvd at the potenza int. film festival, italy >Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:44:30 -0800 > >Dear Friends: Rattapallax DVD magazine is being >featured at the Potenza International Film Festival in >Naples, Italy from Dec 1 to 9, 2006. I will be >presenting the DVD and discussing poetry films and >other topics. More information on the festival at >http://www.potenzafilmfestival.it > >Rattapallax DVD is a fusion between contemporary >writing and film. Featured in the DVD are films and >audio works by Abbas Kiarostami, Takeshi Kitano, Joyce >Carol Oates, Ishle Park, Paul Bowles, Sherman Alexie, >Elvira Hernandez, Fabrício Carpinejar, Anne Waldman, >Martín Espada, Arnaldo Antunes and many others. ONLY >$6! More info at http://www.rattapallax.com > >Cheers >Ram Devineni >Publisher >Rattapallax > > > >Please send future emails to >devineni@rattapallax.com for press > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it >now. _________________________________________________________________ View Athlete’s Collections with Live Search http://sportmaps.live.com/index.html?source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=MGAC01 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:27:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: reJennifer Bartlett Subject: Back Issues of SES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Send me 5$ for shipping. I'll send you three copies of Saint Elizabeth Street. Poets include Bernstein, Tarn, Andrea Baker, Bill Olsen, Robyn Art, Fanny Howe, Jim Stewart, Marcella Durand, and many, many others. 136 Freeman St Apt. 1A Brooklyn, NY 11222 CASH ONLY _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:28:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thom donovan Subject: Peace On A presents Paolo Javier & El=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9na?= Rivera Friday, December 8th 2006 8PM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peace On A presents Paolo Javier & Eléna Rivera Friday, December 8th 2006 8PM sharp BYOB & suggested donation: $5 hosted by Thom Donovan at: 166 Avenue A, Apartment #2 New York, NY 10009 about the readers: Paolo Javier is the author of 60 lv bo(e)mbs (O Books), & the time at the end of this writing (Ahadada). He recently completed a full-length play, Lunatic, & has presented his short dramatic works at Poet's Theater Jamboree in San Francisco. He edits 2nd Ave Poetry (http://www.2ndavepoetry.com/), & lives in New York. Eléna Rivera is the author of Mistakes, Accidents and a Want of Liberty (Barque Press, 2006), Suggestions at Every Turn (Seeing Eye Books, 2005), and Unknowne Land (Kelsey St. Press, 2000), and a recent pamphlet entitled Disturbances in the Ocean of Air (Phylum Press, 2005). She won first prize in the 1998 Stand Magazine International Poetry Competition and the 1999 Frances Jaffer Book Award. Peace On A is an events series devoted to emergent work by writers, artists, performers and scholars. Past presenters at Peace on A include Alan Gilbert, E. Tracy Grinnell, Cathy Park Hong and Andrew Levy. Scroll down Wild Horses of Fire weblog (whof.blogspot.com) for back advertisements, introductions and reading selections. “to the united states of america on the other side of this page”—Hannah Weiner Thom Donovan 166 Avenue A NY, NY 10009 whof.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:20:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sandra de 1913 Subject: 1913's Poor-You Holiday Steal! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Be stingy AND give the gift of 1913. Buy any ONE 1913 item and get any OTHER 1913 item for FREE! Now thru January 1, 2007. Purchase thru 1913's website: http://www.journal1913.org/home.html Choose from: Seismosis by John Keene & Christopher Stackhouse ($19) http://journal1913.org/seismosis.html 1913 a journal of forms issue 2 ($13) http://journal1913.org/issue2.html Entry to the 1913 Prize ($10) http://journal1913.org/prizes.html Entry to the Rozanova Prize ($20) http://journal1913.org/prizes.html L'editrice will email you for choice of freebie. Free item need NOT be equal or greater in value to purchased item. (This ain't Pearle Vision.) Domestic media mail shipping is included. Add $5 for expedited or international shipping via the "support 1913" link: http://journal1913.org/support1913.html Email the editrice with questions: editrice@journal1913.org & Happy Days to all! Love, 1913. As always, 1913 Press sure needs your support to stay alive. If you've got the giving bug, many many thanks: http://journal1913.org/support1913.html 1913 Press / Box 9654 / Hollins University / Roanoke, VA 24020 http://www.journal1913.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:50:04 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: FULCRUM on miPOradio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listen to Grace Cavalieri discussing Fulcrum on miPOradio! http://www.miporadio.net/GRACE_CAVALIERI/ Click the little headphones icon on the most recent item (Tue 05 Nov 2006). To learn more about the journal, visit http://fulcrumpoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:05:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Back Issues of SES In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How does one mail cash? All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: [syndicate] BRILLIANT HARP CONS (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Of course he said yes - I'll pass on any feedback. Thanks, Alan On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Alan Sondheim wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Alan Sondheim > Date: Dec 6, 2006 10:22 PM > Subject: Re: [syndicate] BRILLIANT HARP CONS > To: "ctgr-pavu. com" > > This is just amazing - Can i send this out to some of the other lists I'm > on? > > Thanks, Alan - > > On 12/6/06, ctgr-pavu.com wrote: >> >> > On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, ctgr-pavu.com wrote: >> > >> >> alan's speed + cons >> >> direct outovmouthed >> > >> > with a LISP - >> >> hi alan >> >> did you try the link to speed + con sung by me ? >> http://ctgr.free.fr/speed/ >> >> best >> -- >> OG >> >> > > > -- > http://www.asondheim.org > http://nikuko.blogspot.com > http://www.asondheim.org/advert.txt > > -- > http://www.asondheim.org > http://nikuko.blogspot.com > http://www.asondheim.org/advert.txt > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:27:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit have been mulling over jason's comments about interactive fiction. he said something about our experience of the internet being a bit like one big interactive fiction. it's an interesting observation. for instance, we tend to use google and other searches quite a bit. this is actually fairly close to what you do with interactive fiction. in interactive fiction, you type 'commands' that do whatever. google is sort of 'command line'. i guess the command line would actually be the address bar; the search box is a simplification of the parameters you see in the address bar when you do a google search. part of the strength of google as an 'interactive fiction' is that its 'world view' indexes so many other world views--so many other works. google just presents a good way to navigate through the world of net documents (and videos yadayada). its world view is mostly upon the architecture of net information; it leaves the more humanly significant world views to the surfer--though, of course, google has its ommissions and emphases as well. so, um, interactive fiction has some fascinating 'competition'. aye not so much 'competition' as maybe a partner in crime if interesting ways to use such things in interactive fiction could be devised. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:32:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Back Issues of SES In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Return Receipt Requested. M On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:05, Catherine Daly wrote: > How does one mail cash? > > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:09:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Lee Worden's Cutup Engine 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LEE WORDEN'S CUTUP ENGINE 2.0 http://vispo.com/cgi-bin/wonder/cutup/cutup.cgi Some will recall the Cutup Engine Lee Worden had up on the Net for several years. You cut and paste text into it or feed it one or more URLs, and it dices the text nice. William S. Burroughs said that when you cut audio tape, the future leaks out. The Cutup Engine provides an unexpected view through the interzones of texts. Data structures, however dimensional, are expressable as strings. It's great to have this wordenful, creative tool back on the Net after an absence of a couple of years. Lee Worden has re-written it and added a few features. You can adjust the "chunk size". The cutup code splits the source texts into words (html tags are treated as one word). It constructs the cutup text, by default, by pulling chunks of 3 to 7 words from the source texts and adding on chunks until the total, by default, is at least 1,000 words. The total length of the cutup is adjustable from 1,000 to 10,000 words. Cutups are stored on the server for 30 days. They aren't moved to the public archive unless you visit the piece at least a day later. In that case, they're scheduled for being moved to the permanent archive, which is browsable. Copy the URLs of cutups you want to submit to the permanent archive and visit them a day later. That'll do it. Lee has also implented an interesting feature that makes the Cutup Engine part of your browser. You bookmark the link described at http://vispo.com/wonder/cutup/about.htm . From then on, you can click the bookmark to cut up whatever page your browser is currently displaying. You can also check out the Perl source code. Lee Worden is a mathematician who investigates systems. More about Lee at http://two.ucdavis.edu/~worden/pub/cv.pdf . ja ps: He has also written something about cutups that is part of a stir fry piece at http://vispo.com/StirFryTexts/4.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; 3) Submit up to 5 poems; 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or with an MS WORD attachment; 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor notes; and 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] We look forward to hearing from you. Ian Wilson Managing Editor 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry www.hollyridgepress.com t88ajournal@aol.com ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 00:25:39 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tanner Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi After umpteen decades of utter dominance by America in English-language poetry, I wonder how necessary it is to have a magazine only six years old (a Journal of Contemporary American Poetry) whose title seems to exclude non-American contributions. As if America was some poor post-colonial outpost that needed to protect itself from cultural imperialism with an artistic trade barrier.As if that wasn't the reverse of the truth. Anyway, as a Welsh victim/beneficiary of American AND English cultural imperialism (or something; theories vary), I'd like to know if you'd consider a poem or two from myself. I mean, there are other outlets, obviously, but I just fancied yours.The respected North Wales mag that published me recently has contributions from the States. The Welsh publisher of my first collection ( Pieces, from Cinnamon Press, copies from cinnamonpress.com) publishes American poetry.I'm probably reading far too much into the title. Small nation paranoia. Let me know what you think. In the meantime, remember what the postmodernist guru Diana Ross advised: reach out and touch somebody's hand. Peace and love John Tanner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Randall Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:00 PM Subject: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year > of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what > may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind > of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. > > Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: > > 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to > this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); > > 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; > > 3) Submit up to 5 poems; > > 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or > with an MS WORD attachment; > > 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; > > 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor > notes; and > > 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, > 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. > > [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > Ian Wilson > Managing Editor > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > www.hollyridgepress.com > t88ajournal@aol.com > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:55:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mitchell Eismont Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do I just reply with my poems to the poetry server link? Sorry I am new here. Thanks Mitch Eismont Ian Randall Wilson wrote: 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; 3) Submit up to 5 poems; 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or with an MS WORD attachment; 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor notes; and 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] We look forward to hearing from you. Ian Wilson Managing Editor 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry www.hollyridgepress.com t88ajournal@aol.com ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:07:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ian, I am following rule number 1: replying to your email. Printed in the body of my email reply are four poems. My address is Mary Kasimor 104 18th Ave. N., St. Cloud, MN 56303. A bio. I have been published in many online and print journals, including Gutcult, Volt, Coconut, Lungfull!, Big Bridge, BlazeVOLT2k3, moria, among others. Best, Mary Kasimor Mary Kasimor 104 18th Ave. N. St. Cloud, MN 56303 I thought it was desire you spread out hundreds of miles away what I thought you became more than the distance thinking you into existence was unnecessary it was right here I could live as a 15th century nun love caught in threads the tapestry hangs and I am the handmaiden of its art sorrow and tears make it salt I hold the ocean in my brain and it is bigger than all this 8 am returns me to the mundane water of tea and swimming with it the world is pleasant enough a store bought cake is not manna nor perfect bread I serve it and acknowledge that its taste is an aspiration of slaves wanting art to be intangible like searching for love in the middle of the garden and finding that at its heart are thorns Mary Kasimor 104 18th Ave. N. St. Cloud, MN 56303 picking Up the object what it is Is an object feeling its way across the mountains at the end it is more than it seems seam- Lessly connecting from two beginnings a related definition means that I am the Honey from the bee perhaps I am Also the honey and the bear I will change the Past it appears before your eyes as a seashell somewhere it floats in salty water the tears at the End are misspoken because They Speak as sorrow another quizzical summary of winter and summer Vegetables re-ignite fire you plant strange beings in the mountains repetition dares to differ in Breeding brooding Over its differences Mary Kasimor 104 18th Ave. N. St. Cloud, MN 56303 on common ground a plastic mansion grows over schools (of) thought that frame questions in mirrors or through doors keeping it inside I want to leave the road next to the sign (points) to more trees and then a power plant that shows redundancy as a fine invention of frances bacon who lies down next to aristotle and the stream of birds flying east show the different rivers above them (as) extensions of other life forms it is colorless an eagle on the flat roof of an ugly building (lives) despite all the disruption in plastic factories we make matches to (match) your prices gorging on synthetic food the taste of revolution (is) the diamond apple on the tree in the factory time divides us into practical machines I listen through my cell phone it is hell in here Mary Kasimor 104 18th Ave. N. St. Cloud, MN 56303 in this narrative it is nature it is the ruby ring on the hand that draws the bow on the violin on the bow that needs the arrow in this schema a + b equals one or the other I know more about an unidentified place on this earth but there is no voice to hold it in the center and off to the side contains the button that changes the middle of there to the middle of then in this huge building you become lost and it confounds the philosophers because they are men the women gather in the kitchen baking bread light filters tea all this must mean more but it does not I will try to explain it on paper in this life I have three hands the hands are poetry no one knew this but I cultivate them like circles and seeds that return if they chose to be wild seeds the jazz in the rivers would ignite all the highways how to get out of the fire is found in a translation of indigenous language the lions succeeded in leaping out the river is more blood passion finds another poem in your other hands Ian Randall Wilson wrote:88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; Ian Randall Wilson wrote:88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; 3) Submit up to 5 poems; 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or with an MS WORD attachment; 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor notes; and 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] We look forward to hearing from you. Ian Wilson Managing Editor 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry www.hollyridgepress.com t88ajournal@aol.com ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:22:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David J. Alworth" Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only Comments: To: Ianrwllson05@aol.com In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Ian, Trying this again b/c the listserv rejected my previous e-mail; I apologize if this is a re-post. Thank you for your call for submissions; please see below for bio, address, and 2 commensurate poems from a manuscript entitled, Ombudsmen of the Imp. = I admire 88 and I'm grateful for your consideration. Thanks, David Alworth Quid Be a bit surly with your renegade physiognomy: peripatetic pr=E9cis, slothf= ul anodyne, timbre recovered as oracular atavism pink with amniotic lapidary. The simian dur=E9e of declivity. Something dyspeptic for the attentive contessa to germinate treillage quietude=97and all this bric-a-brac inscrib= ed in anagram. Willy-nilly as convalescence, as function, as colonnade muster. If the ombudsman said surgical dehiscence were apodictic, the so-called as is, there might be a kind of kooky flanker worth pursuing, but ascetics mak= e pixilation a matter of bric-a-brac, of lability. Lurch by stereoscopic millenarians, give sentience a chance, try to pass muster. Perhaps too-churlish quietude, an atopia redescribed as culpability, as slipshod first-responder, while suasive stenographers try their luck at laconic xenology. Some slovenly ombudsman missing ambulatory geomancy=97no way to adjudicate, no substrate, no nooks for heuristic granularity. But to resolv= e orthographic atavism willy-nilly with bric-a-brac, with fluxion as viability, splenetic as the guffaw anecdote, a new impresario, some sentien= t stereoscopy, some physiognomic glean, some matter bins. Dervish Tender bric-a-brac wills two-dot matrices for splenetic mambo. And bidding wars for anomic lacunae. And humble churls blat rasp to indemnity or amniotic mensuration. So thumb the underbelly of the stochasticity and quip ineluctable adisposition to the funny bone: nonce prop, sinuosity and lumba= r menace=97bulge blunt as it degenerates, the body, the body. As is always th= e simian modality. Remove inscription from sylvan femurs, subjectile in earnest the oracular conscript to plutocracy where contrapuntal archontics. Sing brass, a kooky obscurantist unhinged. Or rather heuristics transposed to the hypomnesic pitter-patter: two milkweed millenarians and a few redolent auteurs leaning and loafing on oneiric regicide. And the work get done=97and quickly. But to hypostasize the distich, to preponder binocular parallax, is to unmake a fledgling leanto, says the otherwise laconic mandala. What would be, finally, the exogenous paragone of servile flanerie= ? Too many dour apodictics like assertorial orthography, the graphologic muumuu is our new sobriquet, and anyway the quibble, the dur=E9e, the ineluctable ludditism of primeval physiognomy. Bio: David Alworth's poems have appeared in 42Opus and Dirt Press, and some of his critical writing can be found in Jacket. He recently moved from New Yor= k to Chicago, where he is a doctoral candidate in English at the University o= f Chicago and a member of the poetry staff of Chicago Review. Address: 1365 E. 56th Street, Apt. 1 Chicago IL, 60637 On 12/8/06, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year > of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For wha= t > may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind= of > material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. > > Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: > > 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to > this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only)= ; > > 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; > > 3) Submit up to 5 poems; > > 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply o= r > with an MS WORD attachment; > > 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; > > 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor > notes; and > > 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10= , > 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. > > [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > Ian Wilson > Managing Editor > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > www.hollyridgepress.com > t88ajournal@aol.com > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and securit= y > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web= , > free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:48:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sue walker Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed 1. [DE]LINEATION The offensive line does not carry the ball, but a line meant means what ever it takes to toe=97 heel toe it, to draw it =96 = mouth open, = cottoned jaws, = tongue depressant, = tooth and water = freshen, = canine = implants = and = John Keats in the calm grandeur of a sober line up fearing judgment, jury still out on the consequences of line-making; feline integrity=92s a bust if reading is wrong- headed, in line with style, in style with Auden=92s infallible ears hemistiched as a poem is, one listening to the other crossing the space between, _____________ underlining Max Neuhaus=92s suspended sound line: A footbridge lined with Sound Partitioned into abutting regions Alternating sound entities Reciprocating open with dense Tension with relaxation The sound of the saying, the round wanting O, taking in how what is said is sweet sometimes, a praline, is salty, saline , solution, space 2. LETTER FROM FANNY BURNEY TO HER SISTER ESTHER 1 October, 1811 Dear Sister, So here I am alone. The surgery is over and the stitches removed, but my fingers, of their own accord, stray to what used to be my breast. Yesterday, I found my way to the looking glass and forced myself to see the thing of which my pen refuses almost to write. I am flat sister, flatter than the Salisbury Plain, and a snake slithers along it. I fear the cancer adder will strike again, and in the night I wake screaming just as I did when the surgeon=92s knife scraped my breast bone. I could hear the scraaaaaatch, scraaaaaatch, scraaaaaatch intermingled with my screams. Only sounds sister, like animals make, suffice to tell you how it is when your body betrays you like a lover running off with a courtesan, only worse, for I am a woman no more, her beauty cut away. I could bear the dreadful steel plunging into the breast, endure as it cut through veins, arteries, flesh, nerves, for I would sometimes pass out from the pain. Childbirth, phew! That was nothing in comparison--then, or now when I again sent Mr. D=92Arblay away. Last night, I told him: =93Husband, just go. Do you see that bright moon in its fullness? It no longer speaks of love. Oh, he tried to console me, told me this is not the bitterest woe. But I saw his looks. They were shocking. Do you know the surgeons never told me they would remove the entire breast? I read it in the language of their hands, and I must tell you dear sister, for there is nothing a woman cannot do, I reached out with my own and steadied the breast for them to do their work. =93Ah Messieurs!=94 I cried. =93Que je vous plains!=94 Love, Fanny 3. Kuki Gallmann On The Death of Her Son. I did not know what to do with my hands as my slack mouth tried to force breath, my breath, its seventeen years of loving whoosh whoosh into my son, my Emanuele. It was not that I hadn=92t bargained with God, promised all I had in exchange for this one life of my life, the terrible brevity of it. Yet this day dawned like any other. 12 April, 1983. A cup of tea. Simon, the houseboy, smiling Jambo, Memsaab, and the dogs, their cold noses, wet tongues caressing my face, and this broad-shouldered man standing before me, snake-tongs hanging from his belt: Can I have a rubber band? I detested that band but could not stop him or my lips from uttering: I hate you doing that. I put the teacup on its saucer and never took another sip. You always worry. I have done it dozens of times. I could see his elegant fingers tighten a piece of plastic around the neck of a sterilized jar, see him push the glass against the fangs of a puff-adder, see the gland pulse. the venom spurt not unlike the atomizer of my perfume. I am going to milk the snakes. Yes, off he went in the lean light of morning. His eyes smoldered amber; the shadow of the house threatened the lawn, Yes, he walked away, this a young man grown full of himself, full of passion, dream, and this action he would not live to regret. My stomach lurched. A fist hammered into it. Can there be such a thing as premonition? He walked out of the snake pit Holding his bitten hand, the short nails turned white, his mouth dribbling green saliva He made it home to the kitchen and fell blind Saying Mamma, his voice lost, thin, unlike his own. My vision blackened. Wapi yeye? I cried: Where has he gone? And God declined to answer as I sat cradling my boy=92s dead face, tracing my finger along the shadow of a moustache on his upper lip, touching the mole on his cheek; strange I=92d not noticed it before. I pushed a wisp of black hair from his forehead and placed a kiss on each eyelid marking it for sleep. BIJA In red Alabama clay, a woman digs seed syllables, takes them, rich bija, in her hand, takes them to her mouth and waits. If they grow as they should, watered with saliva, with tears, with hope. time will be writ in texts, like meaning scribed on red-bellied turtle backs. Sue Walker 62 Ridgelawn Drive East Mobile, Alabama 36608 Sue Walker is the Poet Laureate of Alabama and Chair / Professor of English at the Univ. of South Alabama (as we say -- the "other" LA) On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:00 PM, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th =20= > year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended =20 > hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, =20 > again, short on the kind of material that participants from the =20 > Poetics list have sent in the past. > > Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: > > 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by =20 > replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another =20 > document, replies only); > > 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; > > 3) Submit up to 5 poems; > > 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your =20 > reply or with an MS WORD attachment; > > 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor =20 > copy; > > 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the =20 > contributor notes; and > > 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, =20 > December 10, 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will =20 > be deleted unread. > > [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making =20 > rules.] > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > Ian Wilson > Managing Editor > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > www.hollyridgepress.com > t88ajournal@aol.com > > ______________________________________________________________________=20= > __ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and =20 > security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from =20= > across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:53:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mitchell Eismont Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My name is: Mitchell Eismont 309 Camp Wilbea Franklin, PA 16323 Bio: Mitchell Eismont has won several awards including, "Outstanding Young Poet" by McGregor Anthologies. His first book untitled Shots was published last summer. Mitchell is also a visual poet and graphic designer working on his MFA. Now here are my poems for submission thanks, Poem 1: They call it the Idol He hits pipe at night orange glow over face hidden in closet like habit forms formulizations equations of money and how he gets next fix says a prayer folds fingers around rock cradles it like baby Jesus or a trinket from a dead loved one he repents while high – hooked he goes back – and hooked he goes back – repeats in endless cycle - Poem 2 NYC 2006 taxi man isn’t for death sentence as politician on street says, “lets get those Nazis out of office, boys.” I try to acclimate myself to the surroundings of tall buildings as lil ole six foot five me raised in a town of ten thousands cram into subways and suffocate next to each other. Its just them small things. Receptionist tells me, “gonna hang you by your feet next time.” (if I take my key out of hotel again.) the smell of street vendors and trash on sidewalk cigarettes smoked outside in sadness. Sun don’t rise over buildings just straight down streets. Musicians play for change. Young artists sling CDs to passerby on street. Mental ill lay on sidewalks and singsongs from Harry Potter and the night never sleeps just hangs low in the clouds like a moon made out of neon lights Thank you again Mitchell Eismont Ian Randall Wilson wrote: 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; 3) Submit up to 5 poems; 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or with an MS WORD attachment; 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor notes; and 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] We look forward to hearing from you. Ian Wilson Managing Editor 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry www.hollyridgepress.com t88ajournal@aol.com ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 01:53:02 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Philip Nikolayev's new poetry collection from Salt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Philip Nikolayev's latest volume of poems, Letters from Aldenderry, is fr= esh off the press at Salt Publishing, UK. "Nikolayev's new collection is magnificent... He has a mobile, philosophi= cal mind, and relentlessly uses poetry to explore what he calls 'our pris= m of comprehension'. There are splendid poems here, as rich and robust an= d lyrical as anything being written in America today." ---James Wood "In Letters from Aldenderry the reader experiences repeated shocks of rec= ognition, accompanied by the pleasure of recalling that, yes, that's how = it is! How did this poet know it feels that way? This is a truly exciting= collection of lyrics, as surprising and varied as it is original." ---Marjorie Perloff Available from Salt's UK and US stores at a substantial limited-time disc= ount. http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844712796.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 05:38:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Re: Call for submissions Fire Sale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Mr. Wilson, I'll submit a few things for 88. I've been published in can we have our ball back?, RealPoetik and a variety of French journals, and you can find out more about me on my blog. The third poem submitted has already appeared on that blog, and the others are unpublished anywhere. Here's a bio for the contrib notes, as per instructions: You may find out more about Alexander Dickow on his blog, www.alexdickow.net/blog. And address: Alexander Dickow 23 Recliffe Avenue Highland Park, NJ 08904 Poems are pasted below, separated by ***. Thanks for offering us the opportunity. Cordially, Alexander Dickow I have glimpses everywhere for it. I will scouring any single one by one of that belongings from me, I will be break all of rules to be finding it back. Besides myself to worry, because if I would lost it, I have none of moreover. Following for clues, is notice some kind resemblance... Had you to seen it anywhere, you are telling to me? Once day I would maybe to wake thoroughly up myself, I’ll found it here was whole the time, right affront of me. *** I Puppydog bees and birds with trees, flowers, knees and noses, sugar nice bones and hurt me stones, my fair lady. II I fall down rain and rundown clocks I wind up back in, blind and struck one morning mouse, spider the next. – to Bill Knott *** The issue, problems explain, entail convince, question and considerable related. Involve, however, responds that problems neglect, error, and other concerns debate. Results suggest, for instance, suppose answers that define plausible, agree, conviction; in short, possible? Opinions, the issue concludes: examples indicate otherwise, despite evidence to the contrary. *** --- POETICS automatic digest system wrote: > There are 22 messages totalling 1587 lines in this > issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry (2) > 2. Williams' Territory > 3. Williams' Territory 2 > 4. poetry as export product > 5. rattapallax dvd at the potenza int. film > festival, italy > 6. Back Issues of SES (3) > 7. Peace On A presents Paolo Javier & Eléna Rivera > Friday, December 8th 2006 > 8PM > 8. 1913's Poor-You Holiday Steal! > 9. FULCRUM on miPOradio > 10. Fwd: [syndicate] BRILLIANT HARP CONS (fwd) > 11. Lee Worden's Cutup Engine 2.0 > 12. Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only > (6) > 13. Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only > 14. Philip Nikolayev's new poetry collection from > Salt > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:23:46 -0500 > From: heidi arnold > Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for > Poetry > > Jason, and all, > > -- there are a couple questions i have about this > fascinating discussion -- > this seems to be a highly episodic form -- so i > would question how > "narrative" it really is, whether it is more like a > series of lyrical > moments -- secondly -- if the narrative is that > disjointed, can it be called > narrative -- what is meant by "narrative" here -- i > would question notions > of plot and closure, whether they really exist in > interactive fiction -- > > -- i think of the exploratory qualities of the form > -- but also an > abstraction of the form might be, exploratory > > > > -- heidi > > > > On 12/7/06, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > > > I try to make engaging, pleasurable, and > significant choices available > > to > > > the wreader. My work is intensely engaged with > language but isn't dull > > about > > > image, sound, and programming. I'm involved with > them all as a kind of > > > writing. I try to put it all together, think > compositionally through > > various > > > media and arts. Ultimately, I think that's more > significant in digital > > > literature than quaintly avoiding these sorts of > issues presented by > > > computer systems. > > > > I see your point, but it's also a question that > comes up for me a lot, > > particularly with visual poetry created digitally > like a lot (I won't say > > all) of your or Ciccariello's pieces, is i'm not > sure how to address it as a > > reader. Some things I look at like i would look at > visual art, or the > > language element is minimized in some other way. > for example your "millenium > > lyric" (which I love, by the way, and can click on > for quite some time > > before i've had enough). But i look at it, and > read it, almost like musical > > notation. The zeros to me have a sort of sound > quality to them for me that > > works with the title "lyric" in a way that short > circuits linguistic > > processing for me and i just here color changing > doo-wop. > > > > The thing that appeals to me about IF is 1.) the > fact that it's dialogic > > and 2.) the limitations in the medium that I think > you are correct in > > describing as quaint. those limitations force an > author and reader to work > > strictly within the bounds of not just written > verbal language, but a > > limited subset of that so far as the commands and > things go. What > > complicates things, of course, is making the > language sufficiently > > generative while maintaining narrative to make the > whole thing interesting. > > > > Anyway, before i start rambling... > > thanks for the insights, > > Jason > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:59:37 -0600 > From: Charlie Rossiter > > Subject: Williams' Territory > > If you NY/NJ area folks haven't made the pilgrimage > to Williams' house in > Rutherford, I'd recommend taking that pleasant > little trip. The public > library, just across the street also has some > Williams artifacts, > including his desk, which are being prepared for > display. > > There are several good looking restaurants right on > the main drag by his > house. We went for "Risotto" and it was excellent. > More details on the > blog on www.myspace.com/avantretro > > Later > > Charlie > -- > "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." > Charlie said that. > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:19:17 -0600 > From: Charlie Rossiter > > Subject: Williams' Territory 2 > > Sorry to clutter the listserv, but I don't want any > of you to be misled. > Williams' house at 9 Ridge Road is not an "Historic > House"...that is, it's > not open to the public...some normal citizens > (another doctor) live there. > So if you go, realize you merely get to walk around > it and think about > the poems that were written there without going > inside to look around. > > Charlie > -- > "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." > Charlie said that. > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:20:00 +0100 > From: cralan kelder > Subject: poetry as export product > > === message truncated === www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 08:02:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Call for submissions Fire Sale In-Reply-To: <477359.90660.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline While I, for one, certainly don't mind reading people's submissions to 88, I think what Mr. Wilson intended was for you to reply to his post and *change the "To:" address from the Poetics list to his email address*. Dan On 12/9/06, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Dear Mr. Wilson, > I'll submit a few things for 88. I've been published ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:53:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent Nomadics postings Comments: To: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Comments: cc: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recent postings on Nomadics blog (http://pjoris.blogspot.com): Berlin, Hauptbahnhof Dahr Jamail on the Plight of Iraqi Women kari edwards (1954-2006) "The well with the / star-die on top" Heidegger's H=FCtte The Weekend that was... Anita O'Day be well, Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D For updates on readings, etc. check my current events page: http://albany.edu/~joris/CurrentEvents.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,since it is the merger of state and corporate power." =97 Benito Mussolini =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 08:30:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Barrett Watten @ Temple: Stoning the Devil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A personal account of and reaction to Barrett Watten's visit to Temple in November @ http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com with lots of other stuff too PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:47:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Ruiz III Subject: Kritikos: V.4 2007 CFP In-Reply-To: <275182.86738.qm@web54511.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kritikos: V.4 2007 CFP Kritikos: journal of postmodern cultural sound, text and image ISSN: 1552-5112 http://intertheory.org/kritikos Kritikos publishes work in cultural theory and criticism. http://intertheory.org/Submissions--Kritikos.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:22:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed bio: JF Quackenbush is co-editor of wetasphalt.com and has several publications he's very proud of, including blazeVOX among some other places. He was born in 1978. address: 17913 Military Rd S Seatac, WA 98188 poems: "Katie Cruel" for C-- I am now just a smolder where the sun sets the western shore alight. We were what could call from a distance on moors at a distance. There and with dogs we ran her down with dogs and ropes & cutting things sharpened against the asphalt in the rain. And ran in the shadows all night in the distance where seven men cut silhouettes of flapping long coats like rook wings in queue against the western sky as we moved. Their canes & bodies long & standing upright they upright & carry forward. And now just as it has been where I have been, there now will the cut off if carry forward the sharp sounds of Katie's cries. Carved from the oak in long strips more strips as well of cascara bark where rain fell. Like Lot's wife wrapped in sodium and water. The fires of chemical burns now in Sheol the shoals of the rovers of green where wild irises have been left to twine and gambol. I am now just a wisp of smoke set for the sun as it drifts away with the summer now. And we will ride on plastic wings aloft in the updraft of the firelight & westward the course of Empire shall we follow fallow in the updraft now & on & out beyond the edge of the world where the sea drops away. "Household Activity No. 72" Up close the cat's nose looks like a vagina. Behind the refrigerator where the lost forks are Everywhere I look the holes in walls leak pink lagging like look like. I am adrift and sleepy in the sharp toothed vagina of the world. "Household Activity No. 67" Will it rain tomorrow? Should it then? Enough. Will it rain? Tomorrow? Should it? Then Enough. Will it rain? Tomorrow should, it, then enough. Will. It rain tomorrow. Should it then. Enough. Will it? Rain tomorrow should. It, then enough. Will it rain tomorrow. Should it, then enough. Will it? Rain Tomorrow should; it. Then enough? will it rain tomorrow should it then enough will it rain tomorrow should it then enough will it rain to morrow should it then enough will it rain tomorrow should it then enough will it rain tomorrow should it then enough will it rain tomorrow should it then enough rain tomorrow will it then rain tomorrow should it rain tomorrow will then enough enough rain tomorrow will it should it rain enough tomorrow will it then rain tomorrow should it rain will it enough tomorrow rain will it rain tomorrow should it then enough will it rain tommorrow enough should it rain enough rain tomorrow will enough will it then rain enough tomorrow should tomorrow enough it rain it should it will enough tomorrow rain it will should enough rain tomorrow will it rain tomorrow enough should it then rain tomorrow enough enough enough should it rain enough tomorrow it will enough tomorrow should it rain enough should it rain tomorrow it will enough enough. "top ten things i like; no particular order" 01. my girlfriend courtney 02. poetry 03. good novels 04. dvd as a format 05. surround sound 06. drugs that make me feel different 07. my niece, ember 08. my mom and dad 09. my grandmother 10. my grandfather, who died in 2004 but who i still miss a lot 11. my sister megan 12. my friend the langston death machine 13. my friend M 14. all of my friends really, as a group 15. my friend doc 16. my friend erica 17. my friend jen and her husband my friend terry 18. my friend cassandra 19. spoken word poetry 20. jack mccarthy doing spoken word poetry 21. movies with lots of nudity and sex 22. cigarettes 23. diet pepsi 24. my friend jen 25. dogs 26. big dogs in particular 27. my dog moonshine who is really my sisters dog moonshine but who lives with my parents but we get along really well 28. seattle 29. my friend ken 30. my friend giles 31. my friend chelsea 32. my friend max 33. c's son, max 34. my friend michelle 35. my friend lisa 36. my friend stacey 37. british situational comedies 38. rowan atkinson 39. ted berrigan 40. jackson mac low 41. my friend alice 42. my friend eric 43. allston, mass 44. national public radio 45. guitars 46. punk rock 47. the cure 48. the clash 49. the bruce springsteen album "nebraska" 50. william s. burroughs 51. the gibson les paul guitar 52. bill hicks 53. movies by akira kurosawa 54. particularly donzoko 55. literate science fiction 56. pretty girls 57. the bikini 58. my friend sara la 59. my friend sara la's paintings. 60. writing 61. sushi 62. particularly spider rolls with the deep fried soft shelled crab 63. BH Fairchild 64. Exile on Mainstreet 65. leather coats 66. chuck taylor all stars 67. pears 68. H.R. Giger 69. Black Adder 70. comic books 71. wonderworld books in burien 72. seatac 73. my friend maggie 74. my friend maggie's poetry 75. my girlfriend courtney's short stories which she doesn't write enough of 76. flying fish 77. flying squirrels 78. the short beaked echidna 79. the general experience of echidnalation 80. new vulgar polyglot 81. anthony burgess 82. my friend claudia to whom i must remember to write a letter 83. Exile in Guyville 84. Hunter S. Thompson 85. Every Stanley Kubrick movie except for spartacus which i find dull. 86. James Earl Jones 87. The Empire Strikes Back 88. Buffy the Vampire Slayer the Television Show 89. Alice in Wonderland 90. my friend claire who i sometimes call allison 91. the name allison in general. if i ever have a daughter, i would like to name her that 92. my grandfathers first name was theodore. the russian version of theodore is fyodor, i would name a son that 93. everybody called grampa "ted" or "uncle ted" 94. i called him "grampa" 95. british accents 96. father ted 97. KEXP 98. Disintegration 99. i should mention courtney again. i like her a lot. 100. spring time 101. my friend katy who i can't believe i've forgotten about until now. 102. my friend scott who i have every intention of starting a rap group called "the dead white males" with 103. my friend jared 104. my friend lee 105. my friend samantha who i should have made out with while we were both drunk 106. ludwig wittgenstein 107. Plato 108. the idea of making out with a platonic female friend--who i haven't seen in years--just for the fun of it 109. the two girls, b & k, who i lost my virginity to 110. having sex with crystal my former bosses girlfriend while she was still his girlfriend because he was a dick 111. mira sorvino 112. liz phair 113. rottweilers 114. girls who play the electric guitar 115. poets 116. jack daniels whiskey 117. stolichnaya vodka 118. fat tire amber ale 119. southern comfort 120. my other friend stacie who i will one day give a piggy back ride to 121. amber asylum 122. books about history 123. marguerite duras 124. my friend colleen who i really should hang out with soon 125. movies about vietnam 126. Humphrey Bogart 127. Noir Detective Stories 128. Courtney again and I'll stop there 129. "How Soon is Now?" 130. William Gibson 131. Philip K. Dick 132. Prufrock 133. Tender Buttons ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:28:25 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: IMPORTANT Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New WNY Lit Paper Calls for Submissions: Heralding the Art of Words in Western New York... THE OTHER HERALD 12/09/06 Dear Poetics Members: Good Saturday Morning! I would like to introduce you to a new monthly =20 literary publication: The Other Herald. This publication offers you as =20 the writer/reader a friendly partnership with others who endeavor to =20 connect/support/grow/showcase writers of Western New York and beyond. =20 We are currently accepting submissions for our third and fourth =20 issues, as per details below. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Other Herald publishes good POETRY, short articles on creativity =20 and the writing life, WNY events listings, Woman Poet column by =20 Virginia Lee Hines, fun writing exercises, unique submissions =20 opportunities, Etsy.com artist of the month, writers' "field trips" =20 scheduled, and much more! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Especially, it is our intention at TOH to reach those who may not =20 already feel included in the ?writing community? as a whole, i.e. =20 those are subject to the isolation of small-town living, some who =20 suffer from intense self-judgment, those confined to nursing home =20 residence, young adults who are often ignored by publishers and so =20 need such encouragement to grow... Writers come in all varieties and enrich our lives in so many =20 unacknowledged ways, so we at The Other Herald wish to ?herald? them =20 monthly. Will you spread the word? Do you have something to add? =20 Suggestions and other contributions to the publication, such as events =20 information and writing exercises are always welcomed. Special thanks =20 to Editor and support staff of TOH, who create this publication on a =20 purely-volunteer basis. To all the writers out there... Write on! We are very much looking forward to hearing from any interested =20 writers, not by reply to LISTSERV email, but to TOH email at: =20 hvfNY@yahoo.com PLEASE NOTE: Submissions of any kind should be pasted into the body of =20 your email. No attachments at this time. Excerpts of essays/stories =20 may be printed, due to "cosmic" (space) limitations. If you wish to =20 submit something graphical, please query first as to acceptable =20 format. Include also your BEST contact information, including email =20 address, and how you would like your name to appear in publication. If =20 chosen for publication, you will retain copyrights to your work and be =20 offered choice of extra copies or 4-month subscription. Writing is not =20 usually edited, however, if something seems to be amiss, we will =20 surely contact you beforehand. Kind Regards, T. F. Rice For sample issue, or to submit something by "snail-mail", please send =20 a SASE to: The Other Herald c/o P.O. Box 172 Perry, NY 14530 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:33:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: Send a FREE copy of new WNY lit paper to someone who needs such support! In-Reply-To: <20061209172825.ookim2ak2fk8gk8k@webmail.frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The Other Herald > c/o P.O. Box 172 > Perry, NY 14530 Also Note: You may also send an "addressed-stamped-envelope" to the above address =20 if you wish to recommend TOH to a writer (other than yourself) who you =20 feel requires such support as we wish to offer, as described above, =20 i.e. writer in a nursing home, aspiring young-adult poet, small-town =20 writer-friend, etc. A free copy of TOH will then be anonymously mailed =20 in "ASE" provided. This offer stands while supplies last, so send your =20 "ASE" today! Blessings! ---T. F. Rice Quoting "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" : > New WNY Lit Paper Calls for Submissions: > > Heralding the Art of Words in Western New York... > THE OTHER HERALD > > > 12/09/06 > > Dear Poetics Members: > > Good Saturday Morning! I would like to introduce you to a new monthly > literary publication: The Other Herald. This publication offers you as > the writer/reader a friendly partnership with others who endeavor to > connect/support/grow/showcase writers of Western New York and beyond. > We are currently accepting submissions for our third and fourth issues, > as per details below. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Other Herald publishes good POETRY, short articles on creativity > and the writing life, WNY events listings, Woman Poet column by > Virginia Lee Hines, fun writing exercises, unique submissions > opportunities, Etsy.com artist of the month, writers' "field trips" > scheduled, and much more! > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Especially, it is our intention at TOH to reach those who may not > already feel included in the ?writing community? as a whole, i.e. those > are subject to the isolation of small-town living, some who suffer from > intense self-judgment, those confined to nursing home residence, young > adults who are often ignored by publishers and so need such > encouragement to grow... > > Writers come in all varieties and enrich our lives in so many > unacknowledged ways, so we at The Other Herald wish to ?herald? them > monthly. Will you spread the word? Do you have something to add? > Suggestions and other contributions to the publication, such as events > information and writing exercises are always welcomed. Special thanks > to Editor and support staff of TOH, who create this publication on a > purely-volunteer basis. To all the writers out there... Write on! > > We are very much looking forward to hearing from any interested > writers, not by reply to LISTSERV email, but to TOH email at: > hvfNY@yahoo.com > > PLEASE NOTE: Submissions of any kind should be pasted into the body of > your email. No attachments at this time. Excerpts of essays/stories may > be printed, due to "cosmic" (space) limitations. If you wish to submit > something graphical, please query first as to acceptable format. > Include also your BEST contact information, including email address, > and how you would like your name to appear in publication. If chosen > for publication, you will retain copyrights to your work and be offered > choice of extra copies or 4-month subscription. Writing is not usually > edited, however, if something seems to be amiss, we will surely contact > you beforehand. > > Kind Regards, > T. F. Rice > > > For sample issue, or to submit something by "snail-mail", please send a > SASE to: > > The Other Herald > c/o P.O. Box 172 > Perry, NY 14530 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:22:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 12/9/06, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > 118. fat tire amber ale The Fat Tire 1554 Brussels Style Black Ale is much better IMHO. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:42:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You put shoes, Buffy, Rottweilers, and Prufrock above Tender Buttons? "No particular order" isn't a qualifier that makes me overlook the numbers descending in a list. I'm too conventional. And serious. Jason Quackenbush wrote: "top ten things i like; no particular order" 66. chuck taylor all stars 88. Buffy the Vampire Slayer the Television Show 113. rottweilers 132. Prufrock 133. Tender Buttons --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:50:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <750c78460612091022h356552a1s20d4b4b8cca8748e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed they don't have that on tap in bars in seattle anywhere that I know of, but I'll be sure to keep an eye out for it. On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Dan Coffey wrote: > On 12/9/06, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> 118. fat tire amber ale > > The Fat Tire 1554 Brussels Style Black Ale is much better IMHO. > > Dan > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:12:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "T. A. Noonan" Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: <8C8E92B6F5B5445-DD0-2384@WEBMAIL-RA07.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Ian, Attached please find four poems submitted for your review. Bio: Tiffany (or T.A.) Noonan's work has appeared (or is forthcoming) in several online and print venues. She currently lives in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Address: University of Southern Mississippi 118 College Drive, #5262 Hattiesburg, MS 39406 Thank you for your time and consideration. Best, T.A. Noonan -- Helen of Scranton, PA =09"third hand smoke victim" =09=09=97John Murphy My mother licks the iron (=09element blazing colorless, =09steaming in the round=09 =09) & says, Every block wore my neon once, every john in town came here. Miss Pennsylvania 19something=97=97 (=09my city, she reminds=09=09) =97=97strip-mall queen guaranteed for 1000 hours. Watch how she runs up (=09father's blue =09shirts, casts sleeves west=09) like Greek windsocks. Remember how your cousin prayed herself into a doe?, while her left arm threads a yellow (=09burn in her house robe=09) neck through a hem. Never let your family be the engine that thrusts men toward you=97=97=09 (=09hang above the dryer, =09swear it!=09=09=09=09) =97=97this is the electric city syntax she teaches with her cigarette. As if Endless Mountains rose to Ida. As if Paris flashed behind her linens. Dorothy Hamill Interviews Herself =09=09Why learn to skate? =09You can't =09=09close your grape-round mouth. Summers like fingers: pointing, frosting. Swallow. =09=09Let them clothe your throat, =09edges and all. When the man =09=09brings his Zamboni, leave first and last. Smoke your cigarettes. =09=09What do you wear now =09that you've abandoned Carlo =09=09Facci? When your breath arabesques, snow must equal leg and lung. =09=09Love skating? =09Let easy, string-bean snaps guide =09=09your teeth. Even sleet forgets its freefall; it, too, clenches something white, bladed. =09=09Seasons rise like two- =09footed salchows=97glide flat-side =09=09left, lift right. Dissecting an Orchid We met at theaters. Between reel-changes we snuck behind concession stands, spoke of Buddhism. He hated the Dalai Lama. "I'd never venerate that guy," he said. "Not by my own will." Not by our own wills, Tibetan monks fleeing=97robes scripture-lined=97into Kalimpong, or his palms breaking the straight, clamped line of my thighs. But I named him Molasses-under-the-Eyes (all of them) as easy as I named him Teacher-of-the-Oceans (all of them). He's an orchid now, tucked between three wool folds and cardamom. Skins rhizome, lamina=97membrane pulled taut, snapped like cold-washed beans. Grown wild. "There are ghosts," I tell him. My hands cup butane. Spark. Light cigarettes on Jelepla Pass. He trembles, sheds his waxy sheen. Veins parallel. We might be even. Royal Palm Boulevard Thirteen cars: =09 =09=09left turn signals =09splinter dark into red flecks. Next street, same =09=09=09leaf. Palm & palm, =09all Florida. Think Lexus, Toyota, =09=09=09Mitsubishi. =09(Three diamonds, point to point=97shape sure as stones =09=09=09folded into =09drupes.) Peel back each fleshy topcoat. Find =09=09=09heaven palm-flanked, =09men crowning themselves with dates. Recall how =09=09=09each frond turned east, =09seeking dew on your bumper. Now see where =09=09=09sunrise veins. Watch =09Apollo belt his trousers. -- On 12/8/06, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year = of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what = may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind o= f material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. > > Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: > > 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to= this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); > > 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; > > 3) Submit up to 5 poems; > > 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply o= r with an MS WORD attachment; > > 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; > > 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor = notes; and > > 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10= , 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. > > [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > Ian Wilson > Managing Editor > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > www.hollyridgepress.com > t88ajournal@aol.com > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and securit= y tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web= , free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:38:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: i'm too dry and posting poetry... In-Reply-To: <227897.87003.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Someone thought, backchannel, I might have misunderstood Jason's poem. Perhaps my own wit is too dry. Of course, if one explains a joke, well, it ain't funny. When I labelled myself 'conventional' and 'serious' i thought these were clues ... It's pretty clear Jason's not following any usual ordering priority when a top ten list contains a hundred plus items. People sure are posting a lot of poem submissions to Poetics today. One of the best dogs I ever knew was a rottweiler. Apropos, an excerpt from TENDER BUTTONS: A CHAIR. A widow in a wise veil and more garments shows that shadows are even. It addresses no more, it shadows the stage and learning. A regular arrangement, the severest and the most preserved is that which has the arrangement not more than always authorised. A suitable establishment, well housed, practical, patient and staring, a suitable bedding, very suitable and not more particularly than complaining, anything suitable is so necessary. A fact is that when the direction is just like that, no more, longer, sudden and at the same time not any sofa, the main action is that without a blaming there is no custody. Practice measurement, practice the sign that means that really means a necessary betrayal, in showing that there is wearing. Hope, what is a spectacle, a spectacle is the resemblance between the circular side place and nothing else, nothing else. To choose it is ended, it is actual and more than that it has it certainly has the same treat, and a seat all that is practiced and more easily much more easily ordinarily. Pick a barn, a whole barn, and bend more slender accents than have ever been necessary, shine in the darkness necessarily. Actually not aching, actually not aching, a stubborn bloom is so artificial and even more than that, it is a spectacle, it is a binding accident, it is animosity and accentuation. If the chance to dirty diminishing is necessary, if it is why is there no complexion, why is there no rubbing, why is there no special protection. --from TENDER BUTTONS by Gertrude Stein amy king wrote: You put shoes, Buffy, Rottweilers, and Prufrock above Tender Buttons? "No particular order" isn't a qualifier that makes me overlook the numbers descending in a list. I'm too conventional. And serious. Jason Quackenbush wrote: "top ten things i like; no particular order" 66. chuck taylor all stars 88. Buffy the Vampire Slayer the Television Show 113. rottweilers 132. Prufrock 133. Tender Buttons --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:05:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Creative Writing at U Manchester/Newcastle upon Tyne? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am considering applying for the creative writing phd programs (in the event that Ido not get a job this year...) at the Universities of Manchester and Newcastle in England, but know very little about these programs' aesthetic leanings. I like that Newcastle encourages the hybridization of the critical and creative aspects of the dissertation, as this is what I want to do. Does anyone by chance know what these programs are like? I'm looking at Denver in the states, the only phd with an emphasis in creative writing that I know with an experimental bias. The prospect of spending a few years in Europe is very enticing, though... Thanks, Tod "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 15:32:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hi, jason -- -- what about these -- 128. Courtney again and I'll stop there 129. "How Soon is Now?" 130. William Gibson 131. Philip K. Dick 132. Prufrock 133. Tender Buttons -- why is -- how soon is now? -- what is -- rain? -- enough like light where the falling drops rainforestly -heidi On 12/9/06, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > bio: > JF Quackenbush is co-editor of wetasphalt.com and has several publications > he's very proud of, including blazeVOX among some other places. He was born > in 1978. > > address: > 17913 Military Rd S > Seatac, WA 98188 > > poems: > > "Katie Cruel" > for C-- > > I am now just a smolder where the sun sets > the western shore alight. We were what could > call from a distance on moors at a distance. There > and with dogs we ran her down with dogs > and ropes & cutting things sharpened against > the asphalt in the rain. And ran in the shadows > all night in the distance where seven men cut > silhouettes of flapping long coats like rook wings > in queue against the western sky as we moved. > Their canes & bodies long & standing upright > they upright & carry forward. And now just > as it has been where I have been, there now > will the cut off if carry forward the sharp sounds > of Katie's cries. Carved from the oak in long strips > more strips as well of cascara bark where rain > fell. Like Lot's wife wrapped in sodium and water. > The fires of chemical burns now in Sheol the shoals > of the rovers of green where wild irises have been > left to twine and gambol. I am now just a wisp of smoke > set for the sun as it drifts away with the summer now. > And we will ride on plastic wings aloft in the updraft > of the firelight & westward the course of Empire > shall we follow fallow in the updraft now & on & out > beyond the edge of the world where the sea drops away. > > > > "Household Activity No. 72" > > Up close > the cat's nose > looks like a vagina. > > Behind the refrigerator > where the lost forks are > > Everywhere I look > the holes in walls > leak pink lagging like look > > like. I am adrift and > sleepy in the sharp toothed > vagina of the world. > > > "Household Activity No. 67" > > Will it rain tomorrow? > Should it then? > Enough. > > Will it rain? Tomorrow? > Should it? Then > Enough. > > Will it rain? Tomorrow > should, it, then > enough. > > Will. It rain tomorrow. > Should it then. > Enough. > > Will it? Rain tomorrow > should. It, then > enough. > > Will it rain tomorrow. > Should it, then > enough. > > Will it? Rain Tomorrow > should; it. Then > enough? > > will it rain tomorrow > should it then > enough will > > it rain tomorrow should > it then enough > will it rain to > > morrow should it > then enough will > it rain tomorrow > should it then > > enough will it rain > tomorrow should it > then enough will it > rain tomorrow > should it > > then enough > rain tomorrow will > it then rain tomorrow > should it rain tomorrow > will then enough > enough rain tomorrow > will it should it rain > > enough tomorrow > will it then rain > tomorrow should it > rain will it enough > tomorrow rain > will it rain tomorrow > should it > then enough will > it rain tommorrow enough > > should it rain enough > rain tomorrow will enough > will it then rain enough > tomorrow should tomorrow enough > it rain it should it will enough > tomorrow rain it will should enough > rain tomorrow will it rain tomorrow enough > should it then rain tomorrow enough enough > enough should it rain enough tomorrow it will enough > tomorrow should it rain enough > should it rain tomorrow it will enough enough. > > > "top ten things i like; no particular order" > > 01. my girlfriend courtney > 02. poetry > 03. good novels > 04. dvd as a format > 05. surround sound > 06. drugs that make me feel different > 07. my niece, ember > 08. my mom and dad > 09. my grandmother > 10. my grandfather, who died in 2004 but who i still miss a lot > 11. my sister megan > 12. my friend the langston death machine > 13. my friend M > 14. all of my friends really, as a group > 15. my friend doc > 16. my friend erica > 17. my friend jen and her husband my friend terry > 18. my friend cassandra > 19. spoken word poetry > 20. jack mccarthy doing spoken word poetry > 21. movies with lots of nudity and sex > 22. cigarettes > 23. diet pepsi > 24. my friend jen > 25. dogs > 26. big dogs in particular > 27. my dog moonshine who is really my sisters dog moonshine but who lives > with my parents but we get along really well > 28. seattle > 29. my friend ken > 30. my friend giles > 31. my friend chelsea > 32. my friend max > 33. c's son, max > 34. my friend michelle > 35. my friend lisa > 36. my friend stacey > 37. british situational comedies > 38. rowan atkinson > 39. ted berrigan > 40. jackson mac low > 41. my friend alice > 42. my friend eric > 43. allston, mass > 44. national public radio > 45. guitars > 46. punk rock > 47. the cure > 48. the clash > 49. the bruce springsteen album "nebraska" > 50. william s. burroughs > 51. the gibson les paul guitar > 52. bill hicks > 53. movies by akira kurosawa > 54. particularly donzoko > 55. literate science fiction > 56. pretty girls > 57. the bikini > 58. my friend sara la > 59. my friend sara la's paintings. > 60. writing > 61. sushi > 62. particularly spider rolls with the deep fried soft shelled crab > 63. BH Fairchild > 64. Exile on Mainstreet > 65. leather coats > 66. chuck taylor all stars > 67. pears > 68. H.R. Giger > 69. Black Adder > 70. comic books > 71. wonderworld books in burien > 72. seatac > 73. my friend maggie > 74. my friend maggie's poetry > 75. my girlfriend courtney's short stories which she doesn't write enough > of > 76. flying fish > 77. flying squirrels > 78. the short beaked echidna > 79. the general experience of echidnalation > 80. new vulgar polyglot > 81. anthony burgess > 82. my friend claudia to whom i must remember to write a letter > 83. Exile in Guyville > 84. Hunter S. Thompson > 85. Every Stanley Kubrick movie except for spartacus which i find dull. > 86. James Earl Jones > 87. The Empire Strikes Back > 88. Buffy the Vampire Slayer the Television Show > 89. Alice in Wonderland > 90. my friend claire who i sometimes call allison > 91. the name allison in general. if i ever have a daughter, i would like > to name her that > 92. my grandfathers first name was theodore. the russian version of > theodore is fyodor, i would name a son that > 93. everybody called grampa "ted" or "uncle ted" > 94. i called him "grampa" > 95. british accents > 96. father ted > 97. KEXP > 98. Disintegration > 99. i should mention courtney again. i like her a lot. > 100. spring time > 101. my friend katy who i can't believe i've forgotten about until now. > 102. my friend scott who i have every intention of starting a rap group > called "the dead white males" with > 103. my friend jared > 104. my friend lee > 105. my friend samantha who i should have made out with while we were both > drunk > 106. ludwig wittgenstein > 107. Plato > 108. the idea of making out with a platonic female friend--who i haven't > seen in years--just for the fun of it > 109. the two girls, b & k, who i lost my virginity to > 110. having sex with crystal my former bosses girlfriend while she was > still his girlfriend because he was a dick > 111. mira sorvino > 112. liz phair > 113. rottweilers > 114. girls who play the electric guitar > 115. poets > 116. jack daniels whiskey > 117. stolichnaya vodka > 118. fat tire amber ale > 119. southern comfort > 120. my other friend stacie who i will one day give a piggy back ride to > 121. amber asylum > 122. books about history > 123. marguerite duras > 124. my friend colleen who i really should hang out with soon > 125. movies about vietnam > 126. Humphrey Bogart > 127. Noir Detective Stories > 128. Courtney again and I'll stop there > 129. "How Soon is Now?" > 130. William Gibson > 131. Philip K. Dick > 132. Prufrock > 133. Tender Buttons > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 16:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: In Progress on It's All Connected MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Cunt Poem, Third Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/12/09/in-progress-the-cunt-poem-th ird-movement/ Rich Newman Richard Jeffrey Newman Associate Professor, English Nassau Community College One Education Drive Garden City, NY 11530 O: (516) 572-7612 F: (516) 572-8134 Department Office: (516) 572-7185 newmanr@ncc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:12:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: 1913's Poor-You Holiday Steal! In-Reply-To: <91dedaea0612080820m3c55ba38m726a2117139b3070@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Guys, My som just sent me information about an Iranian photographer who had taken pictures of Kurds being executed by the Khomeini governmenti= in the seventies. One of them won the Pulitzer Prize anonymously at the time. Had any one heard of these photos? They are absolutely amazing. Here is the website where you can find the photos, including an article WThe Wall Street Journal published at the time: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116499510215538266-w6oLtTyb6LO2glORvqxTV1PwiTM_20061211.html?mod=blogs Of course, there are eerie echoes of the photographs from Abu Grab, also, another instance showing the eerie power of photography. Unfortunately, violence is endemic and does not belong to one party. One should not have any illusions. Ciao, Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:24:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Fire Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for not being more clear that the replies should have been to me and not the list. Those who did reply to the list, I have copied out your posts and will consider them. Apologies to the person from Wales who wants the journal to be something other than it is. There are about 1900 other journals listed in the Poets Market guide. Perhaps one of those might better suit you. Ian Wilson 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:32:49 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Fire Sale In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I didn't follow the thread but I like the answer to the Welsh. On 12/9/06, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > > Apologies for not being more clear that the replies should have been to me > and not the list. Those who did reply to the list, I have copied out your > posts and will consider them. > > Apologies to the person from Wales who wants the journal to be something > other than it is. There are about 1900 other journals listed in the Poets > Market guide. Perhaps one of those might better suit you. > > Ian Wilson > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: text and for new utube : The Edge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (please look and feedback, thanks - I'm working with the poetics of 2ndLife and its phenomenology in relation to the real world (such as it is)) The Edge Go to the edge of the world. Don't come back until you find it. Don't tell me there's no edge. If you think there's no edge you're not at the edge of the world. Are you. When you reach the edge of the world you have only one way to go. You may think you have another way to do but you only have one way to go and that is away from the edge of the world. You may go to the edge and you may look over the edge. You may see the shell of the world or the beams of the world. You may see the nodes of the world and the vectors of the world. You cannot go beyond the edge of the world. You may think the edge of the world is quiet and smooth. It is not. The edge of the world repulses the world. The edge of the world repulses the world trying to go beyond the edge of the world. The world cannot go beyond the edge of the world. If you cannot go beyond the world at the edge of the world you're at the edge of the world. You may dance at the edge of the world and you may look. You may look just a little beyond the edge of the world. You may look at the sky. The sky is part of the edge of the world. If you look at the sky and you cannot touch the sky you are at the edge of the world. The edge of the world is not a barrier and not a frontier. There are no guards at the edge of the worlds. There are no tariffs and no customs. There is nothing at the edge of the world but the edge of the world. The edge of the world is nothing and separates you from nothing. You may think to yourself someone owns the rest of the world. Or someone owns the edge of the world. Someone may own up to the edge of the world. Someone may own the edge of the edge of the world. No one can own the edge of the edge beyond the edge of the world. The edge of the edge beyond the edge of the world is an open set. The world up to the edge of the world includes the edge of the world. The edge of the world is a closed set. You may think you are free but you are in a closed set. You may dance within the closed set and you will be thrown back at the edge of the world. For the edge of the world is an active edge and a prohibition. The prohibition at the edge of the world is within the world. Every dance is a dance at the edge of the world. Every dance weakens the world. The world is weaker for dance. Dance is stronger for the world. You may think you are at the edge of the world. Then return from the edge of the world. You may think there's no edge of the world. Then you're not at the edge of the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS5-v9yrGPY Bones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht9rjkaFpqg Blocked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6f56M3B1DM Dropping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bAnuua9-Pc Xcape *There is a site bed on the edge. It is not an edge at all. ** There is no end to the open set of the other of the edge of the world. *** There is no beginning as well. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 19:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian, Thanks for the invitation. Pavement Saw Press published my most recent book, Post-Avant, as its 2000 Editor's Choice in the Transcontinental Poetry Contest. Other recent poems appeared in The Poets of New Jersey: Colonial to Contemporary, Chelsea, and House Organ. Daniel Zimmerman 207 Pickering Place Somerset, NJ 08873 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ future perfect little girls, always married, dress & name their dolls. the names stay the same, despite their dresses. their daughters inherit them. boys don't dress their heroes. they pose them, blow them up, bury them in closets. death before marriage, they vow. older, they wed, then enlist. some become men & women. others abandon or cling, let themselves go, or go numb. Cabbage Patches, GI Joes, never blink, don't slum. when kids arrive, those relics bodysnatch their custodians, hijack their voices, lisp or bellow. their faces linger in mirrors. past pain & tuition, other eyes look out into each other, wry or adamant. boys still don't dress. girls stay married. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ impervious to vertigo they insist on building from the top down. even Dante's Hell grew upward, worst first. no: they see themselves as Icarus, still safe from the sun. their paper wings, origami blueprints, burn to a choking ash. hot air crowns, though, paraglide them to the proper bulge in the Grand Portfolio. they know the score & sing it, warbling sweet as vultures. nobody remembers how it all began, or which came first: the pyramid or eye. but bricks can't organize, can't supervise, can't find a corpse deserving of a tomb, they catechize, denying potential Adams & Eves a chance to refuse the Apple Contract. outsourced from the get-go, bricks turn to sand, levees collapse, architects' cartouches self-destruct, their get-go gone. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Randall Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 5:00 PM Subject: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year > of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what > may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind > of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. > > Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: > > 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to > this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); > > 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; > > 3) Submit up to 5 poems; > > 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or > with an MS WORD attachment; > > 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; > > 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor > notes; and > > 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, > 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. > > [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] > > We look forward to hearing from you. > > Ian Wilson > Managing Editor > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > www.hollyridgepress.com > t88ajournal@aol.com > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 18:59:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: text and for new utube : The Edge In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Alan: What's the connection between Second Life & the videos logged =20 below. I thought perhaps they were recorded in Second Life but it =20 doesn't seem like it. After spending a bit of time in SL in the last =20= few months I'm having a hard time finding any signs of intelligent =20 life, perhaps you've had better luck? It seems largely a gamer's =20 culture & most of the avatars & builds seem likewise. ~mIEKAL On Dec 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > (please look and feedback, thanks - I'm working with the poetics of =20= > 2ndLife and its phenomenology in relation to the real world (such as > it is)) > > > The Edge > > Go to the edge of the world. Don't come back until you find it. =20 > Don't tell > me there's no edge. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DLS5-v9yrGPY Bones > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DHt9rjkaFpqg Blocked > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Df6f56M3B1DM Dropping > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6bAnuua9-Pc Xcape > > *There is a site bed on the edge. It is not an edge at all. > ** There is no end to the open set of the other of the edge of the =20 > world. > *** There is no beginning as well. "The more technological our societies, the more our walls ooze ghosts." =97Italo Calvino ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 22:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: text and for new utube : The Edge In-Reply-To: <915E0DF9-AA53-4871-9539-DE096BB01B82@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-702624840-1165719706=:26067" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-702624840-1165719706=:26067 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE They were recorded in 2ndLife; one of the dance sequences was at the=20 bottom of the ocean. Echo was added of course. There was a sequence of the= =20 avatar trying to break into a forbidden area - I think that's the blockage= =20 one - and that's also echo. The other two were literally at the edge of=20 the game playing space - trying to move beyond the space, where the=20 physics of the avatar and game limitations collide; the figures are=20 constantly thrown backward - but you do get the 'edge' of the continent=20 and can see where the hills etc. are hollowed. I know Patrick Lichy today had a reading in 2ndLife; I wasn't there. I=20 want to use it as a potential performance space, if and when I get the=20 money to register. As it is, I have the lowest level avatar, which is free= =20 of course. - Alan On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Alan: What's the connection between Second Life & the videos logged below= =2E I=20 > thought perhaps they were recorded in Second Life but it doesn't seem lik= e=20 > it. After spending a bit of time in SL in the last few months I'm having= a=20 > hard time finding any signs of intelligent life, perhaps you've had bette= r=20 > luck? It seems largely a gamer's culture & most of the avatars & builds s= eem=20 > likewise. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Dec 9, 2006, at 6:38 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> (please look and feedback, thanks - I'm working with the poetics of 2ndL= ife=20 >> and its phenomenology in relation to the real world (such as >> it is)) >>=20 >>=20 >> The Edge >>=20 >> Go to the edge of the world. Don't come back until you find it. Don't te= ll >> me there's no edge. >>=20 >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DLS5-v9yrGPY Bones >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DHt9rjkaFpqg Blocked >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Df6f56M3B1DM Dropping >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6bAnuua9-Pc Xcape >>=20 >> *There is a site bed on the edge. It is not an edge at all. >> ** There is no end to the open set of the other of the edge of the world= =2E >> *** There is no beginning as well. > > > > "The more technological our societies, the more our walls ooze ghosts." > =97Italo Calvino > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. --0-702624840-1165719706=:26067-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 04:50:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: POET - Midwest + Apartment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looking into flats around Milwaukee area. Planning to stay beginning January 2007 for a committed six months. Having a difficult from present location (outside of Hong Kong) coordinating THIS. Apologize for what might seeem like scrub on the list, and I don't disagree (but have seen this sort of thing before, as they say). Back channel, please. "Sometimes I feel/ sometimes I feel/ like I've been tied to the whipping post..." AJ --- Alan Sondheim wrote: > (please look and feedback, thanks - I'm working with > the poetics of > 2ndLife and its phenomenology in relation to the > real world (such as > it is)) > > > > > The Edge > > Go to the edge of the world. Don't come back until > you find it. Don't tell > me there's no edge. If you think there's no edge > you're not at the edge of > the world. Are you. When you reach the edge of the > world you have only one > way to go. You may think you have another way to do > but you only have one > way to go and that is away from the edge of the > world. You may go to the > edge and you may look over the edge. You may see the > shell of the world or > the beams of the world. You may see the nodes of the > world and the vectors > of the world. You cannot go beyond the edge of the > world. You may think > the edge of the world is quiet and smooth. It is > not. The edge of the > world repulses the world. The edge of the world > repulses the world trying > to go beyond the edge of the world. The world cannot > go beyond the edge of > the world. If you cannot go beyond the world at the > edge of the world > you're at the edge of the world. You may dance at > the edge of the world > and you may look. You may look just a little beyond > the edge of the world. > You may look at the sky. The sky is part of the edge > of the world. If you > look at the sky and you cannot touch the sky you are > at the edge of the > world. > > The edge of the world is not a barrier and not a > frontier. There are no > guards at the edge of the worlds. There are no > tariffs and no customs. > There is nothing at the edge of the world but the > edge of the world. The > edge of the world is nothing and separates you from > nothing. You may think > to yourself someone owns the rest of the world. Or > someone owns the edge > of the world. Someone may own up to the edge of the > world. Someone may own > the edge of the edge of the world. No one can own > the edge of the edge > beyond the edge of the world. The edge of the edge > beyond the edge of the > world is an open set. The world up to the edge of > the world includes the > edge of the world. The edge of the world is a closed > set. You may think > you are free but you are in a closed set. You may > dance within the closed > set and you will be thrown back at the edge of the > world. For the edge of > the world is an active edge and a prohibition. The > prohibition at the edge > of the world is within the world. > > Every dance is a dance at the edge of the world. > Every dance weakens the > world. The world is weaker for dance. Dance is > stronger for the world. > > You may think you are at the edge of the world. Then > return from the edge > of the world. You may think there's no edge of the > world. Then you're not > at the edge of the world. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS5-v9yrGPY Bones > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht9rjkaFpqg Blocked > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6f56M3B1DM Dropping > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bAnuua9-Pc Xcape > > *There is a site bed on the edge. It is not an edge > at all. > ** There is no end to the open set of the other of > the edge of the world. > *** There is no beginning as well. > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 06:28:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Vispo.com Guest Work and Collaborators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VISPO.COM GUEST WORK AND COLLABORATORS http://vispo.com/guests I've been publishing vispo.com since 1995; there's a great deal of work on the site. Most of it--by 'volume'--is my own work: vispo.com is the primary way I publish my work--but over the years the site has come to house a significant body of work by other people and also collaborative work between myself and others. I've collected and annotated a page of links to that onsite work at http://vispo.com/guests . The most recent works on this page are from 2006, and the oldest is from 1988. Soon to be 1984, actually: I'm working with Geof Huth, Dan Waber, Marko Niemi and Lionel Kearns to recover the animated computer poetry bpNichol did in 1984, and we will eventually get that up on vispo.com. Anyway, http://vispo.com/guests links close to twenty years of work. I have a sense now of working both forward and backward in time. Still trying to forge ahead with new and, hopefully, innovative, fresh projects, but also doing projects such as the bpNichol project and 'On Lionel Kearns' that look back and either recover work relevant to digital poetry now or present the work of artists who have been a big influence on me. Most of the pieces are explorative of digital writing. The 2006 works are by Lee Worden and Marko J. Niemi, both of whom are programmers as well as writers. Lee, who has a doctorate in math from Princeton, has re-written his Cutup Engine that some of you will be familiar with. This is an excellent tool for exploring the interzones of texts. You paste text or URLs into the Engine and it dices them in a configurable way. Marko's 2006 works are the Concrete Stir Fry Poems. These deal with cutups also, but in a lettristic, visual poetic manner. Marko is a remarkable poet-programmer from Finland; his work bodes well for the future of digital poetry. Also, the page links to the work of the Argentine poet Ana Maria Uribe, who passed away in 2004 and whose Typoems and Anipoems are, in their entirety, housed on vispo.com. She also collaborated in the production of Paris Connection, a project in critical media that examines the work of six French net artists. There are other projects in critical media such as Defib, a series of sixteen chat interviews produced with Dan Waber; in 1999-2000 we produced chats with writers who were attempting to produce work on the Web. The page links also to Strings by Dan Waber, which is a project in kinetic poetry that has been wonderfully successful; Strings is taught in many Universities that deal with digital poetry. The oldest links on the page are from my pre-Web days as a writer and audio producer. There's a radio show I produced on the poetry of Seattle's Joseph Keppler (there are over 100 other shows in the vault, not online). And the page links to some of the music of The Laughing Boot Quintet, in which I was the drummer and audio engineer. There's also a link to a Paul McKinnon recording done at Mocambopo, a reading series I organized and hosted in Victoria Canada in the nineties (Mocambopo kept going like the Energizer Bunny for years after I left and only recently moved venues). And there are links to other work such as collaborations with Brian Lennon and Pauline Masurel concerning stir fry texts; a link to my page featuring some of Ted Warnell's work; a link to Jorge Luiz Antonio's page that he maintains on vispo.com on Brazilian Digital Poetry on the Web; a link to Shuen-shing Lee's translations into Chinese of some of my work; and a link to work by Uruguay's Clemente Padin. There's also a link to PRIME, the Peace Research Institute in the Middle East, which I maintain on vispo.com with my friend Sid Tafler. PRIME is headed by Sami Adwan, a Palestinian, and Dan Bar-On, an Israeli. Together, they work on some fascinating and incredibly worthwhile projects in peace-building between Palestinians and Israelis. Sid edits the site and I do the HTML. Anyway, all this work by others and in collaboration with others has been a true joy in my life. The page is ongoing, as mentioned--it isn't finished yet--nor am I, I hope. But I wanted to acknowledge this work and thank those who have contributed fine work to vispo.com and collaborated with me on other work. You discover alternative approaches to poetry in just about all this work, that attempt some synthesis of arts, media, and fields such as programming and mathematics or music and recorded sound. As well as attempts to write of the poetics of such practice. It's about putting it all together, connecting, staying human, discovering the nature of our altered humanity and language so that we can address life with fresh insight and communicative power. Vispo.com is an attempt to create a literary work alternative but related to the book; to create works and experience imaginatively attuned to the media and methods of the Net. Being truly literate involves not only reading but writing; vispo.com is an attempt to write through new media. It is my life's work; and the work on vispo.com by others and in collaboration with others is a huge part of the nature of that life and work to put it all together, to make strong connections. The French poet Isou said "Each poet will integrate everything into everything." And this was way before the Net. Same job, different time and circumstances. Again, many thanks to those whose work is on http://vispo.com/guests , and to you for reading. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:11:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: <000101c6f2d1$014b0c20$6901a8c0@KASIA> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit a few thoughts: I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps when nec as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea & of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many adjs more often, etc best ruth lepson On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: > It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this thread post > in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked a number of > lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make writing about > poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, sheer laziness > about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on my laptop, > so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a desire to not > write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre Lord's "you'll > not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. > > What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is programming jargon for > incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) includes syntactic > conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's not going to > be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and > has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, just smash up, > subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, well, we are > poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond that, there is > the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, or Standard > English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain > words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a > prefix or suffix must be appended. > > Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these posts in my poem. > I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am > only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which > consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing > around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, as is most > of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a > certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest that hysteria is > now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but > this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The meaning of the > word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied > dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and > there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def Leppard album. > Armageddon it? > > All best, > Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 08:29:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: to dan coffey In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dan, Reread Wilson's submission guidelines: he's very insistent, "REPLIES ONLY" will be considered. Since I'm in digest format, that leaves me not much choice, I'm afraid. Just playing it safe: my apologies for cluttering up people's inboxes. Yours, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:42:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe no language. On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters and no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use of ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have happened already for many women on the corporate track.The question is whether changing the language would have any impact on the social parameters. If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch would there be true equality. Mark At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >a few thoughts: > >I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >when nec >as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >& of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >adjs more often, etc > >best >ruth lepson > > >On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: > > > It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this thread post > > in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked a number of > > lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make writing about > > poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, sheer laziness > > about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on my laptop, > > so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a desire to not > > write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre Lord's "you'll > > not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. > > > > What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is programming > jargon for > > incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) includes syntactic > > conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's > not going to > > be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and > > has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. > > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, > just smash up, > > subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, > well, we are > > poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond that, there is > > the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, or Standard > > English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain > > words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a > > prefix or suffix must be appended. > > > > Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these posts > in my poem. > > I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am > > only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which > > consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing > > around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, as is most > > of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a > > certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest that > hysteria is > > now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but > > this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The > meaning of the > > word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied > > dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and > > there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def > Leppard album. > > Armageddon it? > > > > All best, > > Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:57:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061210112845.03e2fed0@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Mark, hmm. But changing social parameters takes time, of course, and happens only incrementally, as a rule... The world may be altered -- for better, or for worse -- b/c of poetry, or art, or sentences, but those alterations are generally not a matter of direct causal explanations of the sort at stake in stepping on the scale after a holiday. That is, we simply can't quantify them in such terms... Here's a thought, one that's been oft observed in discussions of gendered language practices: if we were to make it a habit of saying "John raped Susan" instead of "Susan was raped," it would be that much more likely that Susan wouldn't be accused of having brought said rape upon herself. That's a matter of standard (active vs. passive) syntax either way, so it doesn't answer directly to the idea of changing SVO relations (say) as a means of addressing social inequities. But it does suggest that how we shape our sentences has ultimately something to do with those social parameters you mention, yes? Best, Joe >Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are >usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies >more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to >avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless >Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe >no language. > >On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and >the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, >which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this >would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel >aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters >and no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use >of ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have >happened already for many women on the corporate track.The question >is whether changing the language would have any impact on the social >parameters. If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch would >there be true equality. > >Mark > > >At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >>a few thoughts: >> >>I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >>when nec >>as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >>called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >>I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >>discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >>her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >>suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >>a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >>& of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >>differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >>adjs more often, etc >> >>best >>ruth lepson >> >> >>On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >> >>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this thread post >>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked a number of >>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make writing about >>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, sheer laziness >>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on my laptop, >>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a desire to not >>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre Lord's "you'll >>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. >>> >>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is programming >>>jargon for >>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) includes syntactic >>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's >>>not going to >>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and >>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. >> > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, >>just smash up, >>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, >>>well, we are >>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond that, there is >>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, or Standard >>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain >>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a >>> prefix or suffix must be appended. >>> >>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these posts >>>in my poem. >>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am >>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which >>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing >>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, as is most >>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a >>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest that >>>hysteria is >>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but >>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The >>>meaning of the >>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied >>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and >>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def >>>Leppard album. >>> Armageddon it? >>> >>> All best, >>> Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:20:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" for more on the ways in which english is a gendered language, see Julia Penelope, _Speaking Freely: Unlearning the Lies of the Father's Tongue_. she was one of the first to offer as a quick and lovely example the problem with the rhetoric we use to articulate a rape event. see also deborah tannen, just about any title (_You Just Don't Understand_ is for lay folk; _Language and Sexuality_ also interesting); but my other fav is jennifer coates----_Women, Men and Language_ is in a 3rd edition now i think. the original bases for all of this tho were works by robin lakoff, in the "seminal" (hm) text _Language and Women's Place_, which came out in 1975 and has been reissued on that anniversay with a new intro by her and with essays critical in the back. the text itself is fairly short and a fun read if you're into this shit. what she asserts there over and over (my reason for the above biblio) is that linguistic change must follow social change---it can't cause it. i disagree with her but am unable to offer anything a linguist would accept---i can offer only empirical evidence from the last 40 years---mark's citing of "Ms." is a good example. i swear, i remember just where i was when i heard that the New York Times had decided after all to use it, and that decision made Ms. de rigeur. and Ms. has survived even as we've suffered through a major and extended period of backlash. as with most such debates, tho, the middle ground is probably the closest to "correct" that we can come---it's likely that the linguistic shifts and the social shifts are symbiotic, that language follows but also offers possibilities (imaginings) to the social. and yeah, long long long long time. second-wave feminism was one of the fastest, most successful social movements in history (there are socio-economic situations that were responsible for a good bit of that), but now here we sit, with sarah still the subject, not object, of her rape. we'll be sitting for a while, if history is any judge. kass >Mark, hmm. But changing social parameters takes time, of course, >and happens only incrementally, as a rule... The world may be >altered -- for better, or for worse -- b/c of poetry, or art, or >sentences, but those alterations are generally not a matter of >direct causal explanations of the sort at stake in stepping on the >scale after a holiday. That is, we simply can't quantify them in >such terms... > >Here's a thought, one that's been oft observed in discussions of >gendered language practices: if we were to make it a habit of >saying "John raped Susan" instead of "Susan was raped," it would be >that much more likely that Susan wouldn't be accused of having >brought said rape upon herself. > >That's a matter of standard (active vs. passive) syntax either way, >so it doesn't answer directly to the idea of changing SVO relations >(say) as a means of addressing social inequities. But it does >suggest that how we shape our sentences has ultimately something to >do with those social parameters you mention, yes? > >Best, > >Joe > >>Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are >>usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies >>more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to >>avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless >>Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe >>no language. >> >>On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and >>the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, >>which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this >>would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel >>aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters >>and no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use >>of ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have >>happened already for many women on the corporate track.The question >>is whether changing the language would have any impact on the >>social parameters. If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch >>would there be true equality. >> >>Mark >> >> >>At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >>>a few thoughts: >>> >>>I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >>>when nec >>>as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >>>called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >>>I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >>>discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >>>her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >>>suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >>>a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >>>& of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >>>differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >>>adjs more often, etc >>> >>>best >>>ruth lepson >>> >>> >>>On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >>> >>>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this >>>>thread post >>>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked >>>>a number of >>>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make >>>>writing about >>>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, >>>>sheer laziness >>>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on my laptop, >>>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a desire to not >>>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre >>>>Lord's "you'll >>>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. >>>> >>>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is >>>>programming jargon for >>>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) >>>>includes syntactic >>>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's >>>>not going to >>>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and >>>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. >>> > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, >>>just smash up, >>>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, >>>>well, we are >>>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond that, there is >>>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, >>>>or Standard >>>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain >>>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a >>>> prefix or suffix must be appended. >>>> >>>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these posts >>>>in my poem. >>>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am >>>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which >>>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing >>>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, as is most >>>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a >>>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest that >>>>hysteria is >>>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but >>>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The >>>>meaning of the >>>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied >>>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and >>>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def >>>>Leppard album. >>>> Armageddon it? >>>> >>>> All best, >>>> Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:11:48 -0600 Reply-To: wchapman@iwu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wes Chapman Subject: Re: Interactive Fiction as an Engine for Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The thing that appeals to me about IF is 1.) the fact that it's dialogic > and 2.) the limitations in the medium that I think you are correct in > describing as quaint. those limitations force an author and reader to > work strictly within the bounds of not just written verbal language, but > a limited subset of that so far as the commands and things go. What > complicates things, of course, is making the language sufficiently > generative while maintaining narrative to make the whole thing interesting. > I find myself wanting to distinguish limitations from quaintness. All media have technical limitations--William Morris' "resistance in the materials"--and the move from one medium to another, and thus from one set of limitations to another, often sparks creativity in the way you describe. (This works in reverse too--coming back to print poetry looks different after working in digital media--but that's maybe a subject for another posting if I don't fade back into lurkerdom.) But quaintness is not technical; it is not even material. It is, rather, social, in the same way that fashion, though it is "about" material objects like clothes, is social. Quaintness is not a property of the object but an attitude of the viewer, overdetermined by constantly shifting social norms. So here's what I'm wondering. In sparking your creativity against the technical limitations of the medium, are you also working against/out of the social attitudes now attached to the medium? Is quaintness as a social phenomenon part of the materials' resistance? (And are books quaint, while we're at it?) Wes Chapman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061210112845.03e2fed0@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit there are theorist feminists who have suggested, using very complex sentences, that women revert to baby talk to free themselves in just that way--not too practical in this world but I get the point. lang and politics and social parameters are intertwined. there is progress of course in some ways but even the UN says women are the group discriminated against in every country of the world--most people starving are women & children of color, to give one ex. as gloria steinem says, as long as we eroticize violence there will be sexual slavery--and rape and on and on--the visual & verbal langs we learn make us 'buy' into those things--as does the normalization of porn by the major networks & others look at one TV comedy and analyze it from a gender perspective--who is 'good looking,' what do men expect in relationships, who is wearing what, who says what, what happens, who the star is, what the ages and looks of the men and women are, what is advertised, who wears make-up (red lips, blackened eyes, red cheeks show women in a state of sexual 'readiness'--it all matters--our culture commodifies women most of all--look at the billions spent on make-up, look at the mags in CVS, listen to jokes abt sex--sex is wonderful when it isn't sexist but in a culture in which girls in 3rd grade hate their bodies, lang and visual lang affect us--how cd they not? On 12/10/06 11:42 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are > usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies > more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to > avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless > Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe no > language. > > On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and > the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, > which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this > would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel > aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters and > no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use of > ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have happened > already for many women on the corporate track.The question is whether > changing the language would have any impact on the social parameters. > If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch would there be true equality. > > Mark > > > At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >> a few thoughts: >> >> I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >> when nec >> as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >> called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >> I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >> discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >> her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >> suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >> a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >> & of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >> differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >> adjs more often, etc >> >> best >> ruth lepson >> >> >> On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >> >>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this thread post >>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked a number of >>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make writing about >>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, sheer laziness >>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on my laptop, >>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a desire to not >>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre Lord's "you'll >>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. >>> >>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is programming >> jargon for >>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) includes syntactic >>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's >> not going to >>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and >>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. >>> There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, >> just smash up, >>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, >> well, we are >>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond that, there is >>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, or Standard >>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain >>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a >>> prefix or suffix must be appended. >>> >>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these posts >> in my poem. >>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am >>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which >>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing >>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, as is most >>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a >>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest that >> hysteria is >>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but >>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The >> meaning of the >>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied >>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and >>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def >> Leppard album. >>> Armageddon it? >>> >>> All best, >>> Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:51:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Interesting sentences. The second presupposes: 1. that the identity of the rapist is known. 2. that th4e focus of attention is on who acted rather than the impact on the victim. Unless one means to imply that "Susan's current emotional state is the product of her having been raped by John, whereas if Saul had done it..." Which is to say, that the two sentences serve different functions. If we got in the habit of using the second sentence we'd be shifting attention away from Susan in ways that might not always be useful. In any case, among civilized people (and I take myself as a standard here) neither sentence would imply that Susan was the agent of her rape nor excuse John (and changing standard syntax would be quite neutral). One can of course imagine places where they might. Context is everything--change the context and the freight of the sentences changes.. In Navajo, if I remember correctly, a higher lifeform is never passive to a lower life form. So, Susan tripped over the rock, but Susan never was tripped by the rock. Susan got herself kicked by the horse, but the horse didn't kick Susan. I have no idea what Navajo does about rape. Mark At 11:57 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >Mark, hmm. But changing social parameters takes time, of course, >and happens only incrementally, as a rule... The world may be >altered -- for better, or for worse -- b/c of poetry, or art, or >sentences, but those alterations are generally not a matter of >direct causal explanations of the sort at stake in stepping on the >scale after a holiday. That is, we simply can't quantify them in such terms... > >Here's a thought, one that's been oft observed in discussions of >gendered language practices: if we were to make it a habit of >saying "John raped Susan" instead of "Susan was raped," it would be >that much more likely that Susan wouldn't be accused of having >brought said rape upon herself. > >That's a matter of standard (active vs. passive) syntax either way, >so it doesn't answer directly to the idea of changing SVO relations >(say) as a means of addressing social inequities. But it does >suggest that how we shape our sentences has ultimately something to >do with those social parameters you mention, yes? > >Best, > >Joe > >>Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are >>usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies >>more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to >>avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless >>Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe no language. >> >>On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and >>the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, >>which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this >>would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel >>aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters >>and no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use >>of ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have >>happened already for many women on the corporate track.The question >>is whether changing the language would have any impact on the >>social parameters. If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch >>would there be true equality. >> >>Mark >> >> >>At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >>>a few thoughts: >>> >>>I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >>>when nec >>>as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >>>called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >>>I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >>>discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >>>her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >>>suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >>>a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >>>& of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >>>differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >>>adjs more often, etc >>> >>>best >>>ruth lepson >>> >>> >>>On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >>> >>>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this >>>> thread post >>>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked >>>> a number of >>>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make >>>> writing about >>>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, >>>> sheer laziness >>>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on >>>> my laptop, >>>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a >>>> desire to not >>>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre >>>> Lord's "you'll >>>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. >>>> >>>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is >>>> programming jargon for >>>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) >>>> includes syntactic >>>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's >>>> not going to >>>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and >>>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. >>> > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, >>> just smash up, >>>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, >>>> well, we are >>>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond >>>> that, there is >>>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, >>>> or Standard >>>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain >>>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a >>>> prefix or suffix must be appended. >>>> >>>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these >>>> posts in my poem. >>>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am >>>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which >>>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing >>>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, >>>> as is most >>>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a >>>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest >>>> that hysteria is >>>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but >>>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The >>>> meaning of the >>>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied >>>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and >>>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def >>>> Leppard album. >>>> Armageddon it? >>>> >>>> All best, >>>> Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:53:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Kasimor Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I teach research writing, and the final paper is a argument/persuasion paper. This seems to be the common style of the freshman writing class. I do have issues with the thesis--the hard hitting, linear way of constructing and looking at "issues" in our culture. I remember reading an essay about a Chinese student who came to this country for graduate work in English. He describes the manner of writing that he learned as "pealing an onion." I always liked that way. I don't know if I would be able to change my research/prose style, since that is what I learned. Another interesting thing that I was fascinated with during grad. school, was the French Feminist theory on language. Helene Cixious (sp) and two other French women (Irigaray and the other, I can't remember) go into the biological determination of language--the male orgasm and the female orgasm and mother nurturing pieces of language. I know that I am only touching on a very small part of their discussion, but it has certainly stayed with me, and that has guided me in poetry. Mary Kasimor Ruth Lepson wrote: there are theorist feminists who have suggested, using very complex sentences, that women revert to baby talk to free themselves in just that way--not too practical in this world but I get the point. lang and politics and social parameters are intertwined. there is progress of course in some ways but even the UN says women are the group discriminated against in every country of the world--most people starving are women & children of color, to give one ex. as gloria steinem says, as long as we eroticize violence there will be sexual slavery--and rape and on and on--the visual & verbal langs we learn make us 'buy' into those things--as does the normalization of porn by the major networks & others look at one TV comedy and analyze it from a gender perspective--who is 'good looking,' what do men expect in relationships, who is wearing what, who says what, what happens, who the star is, what the ages and looks of the men and women are, what is advertised, who wears make-up (red lips, blackened eyes, red cheeks show women in a state of sexual 'readiness'--it all matters--our culture commodifies women most of all--look at the billions spent on make-up, look at the mags in CVS, listen to jokes abt sex--sex is wonderful when it isn't sexist but in a culture in which girls in 3rd grade hate their bodies, lang and visual lang affect us--how cd they not? On 12/10/06 11:42 AM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are > usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies > more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to > avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless > Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe no > language. > > On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and > the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, > which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this > would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel > aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters and > no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use of > ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have happened > already for many women on the corporate track.The question is whether > changing the language would have any impact on the social parameters. > If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch would there be true equality. > > Mark > > > At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >> a few thoughts: >> >> I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >> when nec >> as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >> called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >> I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >> discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >> her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >> suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >> a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >> & of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >> differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >> adjs more often, etc >> >> best >> ruth lepson >> >> >> On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >> >>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this thread post >>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked a number of >>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make writing about >>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, sheer laziness >>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on my laptop, >>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a desire to not >>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre Lord's "you'll >>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. >>> >>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is programming >> jargon for >>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) includes syntactic >>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's >> not going to >>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and >>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. >>> There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, >> just smash up, >>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, >> well, we are >>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond that, there is >>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, or Standard >>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain >>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a >>> prefix or suffix must be appended. >>> >>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these posts >> in my poem. >>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am >>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which >>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing >>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, as is most >>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a >>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest that >> hysteria is >>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but >>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The >> meaning of the >>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied >>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and >>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def >> Leppard album. >>> Armageddon it? >>> >>> All best, >>> Catherine Daly --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:03:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Innovative Journals - Ques from Michael In-Reply-To: <457C3FD4.8090803@iwu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just got asked a question from a friend related to the presence of "really very" innovative journals. I wonder if you might give some examples (share the wealth, and maybe this has been done before) of those journals - print/online - that you consider particular examples of those seeming to be actively focused on encouraging innovative work. I understand, however, that one individual's innovative by be another's bor----ing. Your time'll be appreciated. Best, Alexander Jorgensen --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:23:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Innovative Journals - Ques from Michael In-Reply-To: <598314.86311.qm@web54605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed my favorites are mostly all online: Eratio Jacket minimalist concrete poetry (although it's often totally baffling to me) Raunchland (although whether it's a journal or what it is, i'm not sure) Typo Magazine conjunctions Milk la petite zine Drunken Boat blazeVOX Red China new american writing the argotist online On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > Just got asked a question from a friend related to the > presence of "really very" innovative journals. I > wonder if you might give some examples (share the > wealth, and maybe this has been done before) of those > journals - print/online - that you consider particular > examples of those seeming to be actively focused on > encouraging innovative work. I understand, however, > that one individual's innovative by be another's > bor----ing. Your time'll be appreciated. > > Best, > Alexander Jorgensen > > > > > --- > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:14:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: to dan coffey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Alex, I take it you've seen Wilson's subsequent post to the list by now. Regardless of whether you're in digest format or not, you could still reply to him directly. And as I said before, I don't mind seeing the submissions - I actually enjoy it. I was just thinking that there might be people who would rather not have their bios and submissions seen by the whole Poetics List community if it wasn't absolutely necessary. Chairs, Dan On 12/10/06, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Dan, > Reread Wilson's submission guidelines: he's very > insistent, "REPLIES ONLY" will be considered. Since > I'm in digest format, that leaves me not much choice, > I'm afraid. Just playing it safe: my apologies for > cluttering up people's inboxes. > Yours, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > -- http://hyperhypo.org --=20 http://hyperhypo.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061210124020.05817338@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Mark, I'm not following you. If I say "Susan was raped" -- I didn't say "by" anyone, and that's just the point -- you're saying that we've thereby presumed the identity of the rapist? That the focus is thereby on the UNNAMED party? That just doesn't compute, either logically or culturally, either in terms of identity or focus. If I say "The ball was hit," we certainly don't know who hit the ball, and the focus is certainly not on the hit-ter. Unless I'm missing something here? As to the question of who is/is not the agent of the rape: yes, the context is overdetermining (as above), and said context for incidences of rape is fairly well documented here in the U.S., which context has served in general (historically) to obscure the male agency that's at stake when women are raped. (Unless, for instance, the allegation is racialized, in which case the dynamic is somewhat more complex.) I'm not sure why I'm stating the obvious here, at any rate -- I know that you know all this. It was a tough row in this country simply to get people to acknowledge that women of so many walks of life don't "deserve" to be raped (by, well, men). That struggle continues in other countries, of course (and even here in this country). And that struggle is surely, surely marked by our language practices. How could it not be? Re Navajo culture, about which I know very little indeed: I'm perfectly willing to wax ethnocentric (if you will) about this and observe, if need be, that Native populations are not necessarily immune to charges of sexism. I don't see where that gets us, in any case, re the present discussion. What are we talking about? Best, Joe >Interesting sentences. The second presupposes: 1. that the identity >of the rapist is known. 2. that th4e focus of attention is on who >acted rather than the impact on the victim. Unless one means to >imply that "Susan's current emotional state is the product of her >having been raped by John, whereas if Saul had done it..." Which is >to say, that the two sentences serve different functions. If we got >in the habit of using the second sentence we'd be shifting attention >away from Susan in ways that might not always be useful. In any >case, among civilized people (and I take myself as a standard here) >neither sentence would imply that Susan was the agent of her rape >nor excuse John (and changing standard syntax would be quite >neutral). One can of course imagine places where they might. Context >is everything--change the context and the freight of the sentences >changes.. > >In Navajo, if I remember correctly, a higher lifeform is never >passive to a lower life form. So, Susan tripped over the rock, but >Susan never was tripped by the rock. Susan got herself kicked by the >horse, but the horse didn't kick Susan. I have no idea what Navajo >does about rape. > >Mark > > >At 11:57 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >>Mark, hmm. But changing social parameters takes time, of course, >>and happens only incrementally, as a rule... The world may be >>altered -- for better, or for worse -- b/c of poetry, or art, or >>sentences, but those alterations are generally not a matter of >>direct causal explanations of the sort at stake in stepping on the >>scale after a holiday. That is, we simply can't quantify them in >>such terms... >> >>Here's a thought, one that's been oft observed in discussions of >>gendered language practices: if we were to make it a habit of >>saying "John raped Susan" instead of "Susan was raped," it would be >>that much more likely that Susan wouldn't be accused of having >>brought said rape upon herself. >> >>That's a matter of standard (active vs. passive) syntax either way, >>so it doesn't answer directly to the idea of changing SVO relations >>(say) as a means of addressing social inequities. But it does >>suggest that how we shape our sentences has ultimately something to >>do with those social parameters you mention, yes? >> >>Best, >> >>Joe >> >>>Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are >>>usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies >>>more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to >>>avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. >>>Unless Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. >>>Or maybe no language. >>> >>>On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, >>>and the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also >>>virtue, which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None >>>of this would be an issue if better than half the population >>>didn't feel aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social >>>parameters and no one would care about the language issues. Except >>>for the use of ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems >>>to have happened already for many women on the corporate track.The >>>question is whether changing the language would have any impact on >>>the social parameters. If we all called ourselves citoyen or >>>tovarisch would there be true equality. >>> >>>Mark >>> >>> >>>At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: >>>>a few thoughts: >>>> >>>>I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & caps >>>>when nec >>>>as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men it's >>>>called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture >>>>I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long >>>>discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt >>>>her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have >>>>suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting into >>>>a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea >>>>& of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang >>>>differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very many >>>>adjs more often, etc >>>> >>>>best >>>>ruth lepson >>>> >>>> >>>>On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: >>>> >>>>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this >>>>>thread post >>>>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked >>>>>a number of >>>>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make >>>>>writing about >>>>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, >>>>>sheer laziness >>>>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on >>>>>my laptop, >>>>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a >>>>>desire to not >>>>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre >>>>>Lord's "you'll >>>>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. >>>>> >>>>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is >>>>>programming jargon for >>>>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) >>>>>includes syntactic >>>>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's >>>>>not going to >>>>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying (and >>>>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an order. >>>> > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, >>>>just smash up, >>>>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, >>>>>well, we are >>>>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond >>>>>that, there is >>>>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, >>>>>or Standard >>>>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that certain >>>>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to non-males, a >>>>> prefix or suffix must be appended. >>>>> >>>>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these >>>>>posts in my poem. >>>>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, but am >>>>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem which >>>>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or writing >>>>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, >>>>>as is most >>>>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied to a >>>>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest >>>>>that hysteria is >>>>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, but >>>>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The >>>>>meaning of the >>>>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied >>>>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, and >>>>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def >>>>>Leppard album. >>>>> Armageddon it? >>>>> >>>>> All best, >>>>> Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:53:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: Innovative Journals - Ques from Michael In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Two off the top 'o my head: ** MiPOesias -- http://www.mipoesias.com/ (Also includes a call for chapbook manuscripts) [MiPO Archives -- http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/ ] ** Blazevox -- http://www.blazevox.org/ --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:00:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Yost Subject: Victor Hanson on Iraq In-Reply-To: <201143.58405.qm@web35509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thoughtful List members may appreciate this brief essay by=20 Victor Hanson. It dispassionately presents the two major=20 views on Iraq without name-calling or prejudgment. Some may=20 even find it thought-provoking. -Eric www.victorhanson.com *December 1, 2006** Two versions of what we should do next.* by Victor Davis Hanson Five years after September 11, and three-and-a-half years=20 after toppling Saddam Hussein, the U.S. is almost as angry=20 at itself as it is at the enemy. Two quite antithetical=20 views of the war on terror -- and indeed, the entire=20 American role in the Middle East -- are now crystallizing. Ideology and political affiliation are no longer necessarily=20 touchstones to either opinion -- not at a time when /The=20 Nation/ and /The American Conservative/ share the same views=20 on Iraq and the role of the United States abroad. Republican=20 senators like Chuck Hagel call for withdrawal, while=20 Democrats like a Joe Liebermann do not. Republican realists are welcomed by liberal Democrats, who=20 want nothing to do with the neo-Wilsonian neo-conservatives=20 that once would have seemed more characteristic of liberal's=20 erstwhile idealism. It is not just that public=20 intellectuals, politicians, generals, and journalists have different views, but their views themselves are=20 different in almost every 24-hour news cycle. Even the Bush=20 administration at times seems torn, gravitating between both=20 schools of thought. While there are dozens of variants to the following two=20 divergent positions, they represent a clear enough picture=20 of the present divide. *The Majority Opinion* The new majority school of thought -- often described as=20 the more nuanced and more sophisticated -- seems to=20 conclude that the "global war on terror" (if that's even=20 what it ever really was) is insidiously winding down to a=20 police matter. Billions spent in lives and treasure in Iraq did not make us any safer; the passing of time, the=20 dissipation of passions, and increased vigilance did. We haven't had another 9/11. Al Qaeda is probably scattered.=20 Both Iraq and Afghanistan are exhibiting the usual, generic=20 Middle East insanity that is largely beyond our own powers=20 of remedy. Rogue states in the region will ultimately be dealt with, as=20 in the pre-Bush II past, by a sort of containment --=20 whether through retaliatory and punitive air strikes,=20 foreign aid concessions, shuttle diplomacy, no-fly zones, or=20 embargoes and boycotts. If there ever were need for strong military action and=20 invasion, that time is clearly past, at least for now. The=20 long-term negative effects would more than outweighed any=20 short-term benefits -- as we see from the repercussion of=20 the mess in Iraq and possibly Afghanistan as well. In this way of thinking, an all-encompassing Islamic=20 fundamentalism that threatens the very survival of the West=20 is at best mostly a fantasy -- at worst, a license for the=20 U.S. to intervene globally (often against our interests)=20 with the excuse of "fighting terror." Certainly, there exists nothing as melodramatic as "Islamic=20 fascism." That is a misnomer that needlessly alienates=20 millions of moderate Muslims. And such reckless and inexact=20 nomenclature clumsily ignores both the history and all the=20 key fissures -- Shiite/Sunni; Hamas/Hezbollah;=20 theocracy/autocracy/ monarchy; Persian/Arab/Kurd/Turk; etc. -- of the complex Islamic world. Instead, the United States, in pragmatic fashion, needs to=20 address regional problems, particularly with more=20 sophisticated, and less ideological, remedies. Hamas and its rivals exist largely because of the occupied=20 West Bank: force Israel back to its 1967 borders, and=20 Palestinian grievances -- and the violence -- largely=20 vanish, as the United States at last is freed from much of=20 the old Pavlovian hatred so endemic in the Arab World. Radical bluster from the West Bank can sometimes sound=20 creepy, but it is largely braggadocio, or perhaps a cry from=20 the heart, and thus will quietly go away once the=20 Palestinians have their own autonomous state with=20 internationally recognized borders that reflect pre-1967=20 reality. Hezbollah is not really a global terrorist network, but an=20 offshoot of the trouble in Lebanon. It can be handled in=20 part by granting concessions to Syria (such as an Israeli=20 withdrawal from the Golan Heights), winning promises from=20 Israel to be proportionate in responding to occasional (but=20 mostly ineffectual) border provocations, and seeking more=20 equitable political representation for Lebanese Shiites. Iran is a danger, but not a fatal one. It can be balanced by=20 Sunni sheikdoms in the Gulf and checked by multilaterally=20 sponsored and enforced sanctions authorized by the United=20 Nations. As far as America goes, the old method of balancing one=20 autocracy against another, with occasional but quiet and=20 respectful lectures about good behavior and reform, is,=20 however regrettably, often about as much as we can do.=20 Sporadic violence against individual Americans can be dealt with through indictments, international policing, and,=20 /in extremis/, an occasional air strike. In general, internal security measures, such as wiretaps, Guantanamo-like detention centers abroad, and the Patriot=20 Act, were of limited, if any, efficacy in thwarting another=20 9/11. They now probably pose as great a threat to our=20 freedoms as do the terrorists. Indeed, September 11 in proper hindsight seems more and more=20 to have been a sort of fluke, a lucky strike by al Qaeda,=20 predicated both on their sanctuary in Afghanistan and our=20 own somnolence. Both have since been largely addressed. So=20 the specter of another attack of a similar magnitude may=20 well have passed. In some ways, our over-reaction to the bogeyman of "Islamic fascism" has made us less safe, by=20 gratuitously creating new enemies where none previously existed. However unwise, removing Saddam Hussein may have had some=20 initial utility. But now any benefit is overshadowed by a=20 messy civil war, whose violence is only exacerbated by the=20 presence of American troops that have long overstayed both=20 their welcome and their usefulness. The best solution to Iraq is to begin now a steady, but=20 sure, unilateral withdrawal under the rubric of=20 "redeployment" ? with sincere hopes that three years of our=20 blood and treasure should have been enough to jumpstart=20 democracy, and with even more sincere regrets if they have not. In short, Iraq has turned into an unfortunate, but=20 predictable, fiasco, and it is time to cut it loose with as=20 little blowback as possible. Anti-Americanism in the Middle East and Europe is largely a=20 phenomenon of George Bush's idiosyncratic manners and his=20 once-loud advocacy of preemption and unilateralism,=20 particularly in March 2003. With his retirement, things will=20 gradually settle down to the general equilibrium of the Bush=20 I and Clinton eras. There are indeed dangers on the horizon with nuclear=20 proliferation, threats to wipe out Israel, and endemic=20 terrorism. But as soon as the United States and the West are=20 out of Iraq, become a neutral and honest broker between the=20 Israelis and Palestinians, and avoid gratuitous slurs against Islam (such as the pope's unfortunate remarks or the=20 needlessly hurtful Danish cartoons), our reputation will=20 improve and Muslim hostility will subside -- and with it=20 any popular support for militants like Osama bin Laden. *The Minority Brief* We really are in a global war. Its dimensions are hard to=20 conceptualize since our enemies, while aided and abetted by=20 sympathetic Middle Eastern dictatorships, claim no national=20 affinity. Indeed, the terrorists deliberately mask the role=20 of their patrons. The latter, given understandable fears of=20 the overwhelming conventional power of the United States=20 military, deny culpability. In an age of globalization and miniaturized weapons of mass=20 destruction, it is even more difficult to convince Western=20 publics that they may well face peril from state-sponsored=20 terrorists every bit as great as what the /Wehrmacht/,=20 Imperial Japan, or the Red Army once posed. While there are regional theaters of conflict predicated on=20 local grievances -- as in the multiplicity of fighting=20 during World War II in China, Ethiopia, Poland, Finland,=20 France, North Africa, the Balkans, Russia, the Pacific, etc.=20 -- there is nevertheless once more a transnational=20 ideology that seeks to force its worldviews on others. Like fascism or Communism, Islamism galvanizes millions with=20 its reductionist claims of Western liberal culpability for=20 widely diverse Muslim gripes from Afghanistan to the West=20 Bank. Rather than seeing a plethora of grievances that can=20 be individually addressed, it is more valuable and accurate=20 to understand the problem as a general complaint that in turn manifests itself in different regions and=20 circumstances. While Cypriots or Tibetans don't blow=20 themselves up over lost land or honor, those energized with=20 Islamist ideology often do. While Hindu, Christian, or=20 Buddhist fundamentalists don't appreciate popular culture mocking their religion, Islamists are the most likely to=20 assassinate or threaten the novelist or cartoonist as the=20 supposed blasphemer. Islamic fascism exists, then, as a reactionary creed that=20 sees traditional Islamic culture threatened with=20 Western-inspired global liberalization and modernization.=20 Drawing on the Middle East's sense of misery and=20 victimization by others, its narrative harkens back to a purer age. Once upon a time, the truly devout defeated their enemies=20 and lived a morally pure life under a caliphate of like=20 believers. That universal rule of Islam is at last once more=20 attainable -- given the general decadence of the=20 postmodern West, the illegitimacy and vulnerability of most Middle Eastern governments, and the simple fact that=20 vast petroleum reserves, coupled with jihadist fervor, can=20 be translated into militarily powerful, high-tech forces=20 that will obtain superiority over the crusading infidel. On the home front, demoralization and a sort of cultural=20 relativism are far more worrisome than the Patriot Act and=20 related measures. By the prior benchmarks of the wartime=20 administrations of Lincoln, Wilson, Roosevelt, Truman, and=20 Nixon, these measures are relatively innocuous -- and yet have done much to prevent another attack on the=20 United States. It was not the Patriot Act that banned operas, condemned=20 cartoons, allowed films to be ostracized, or muzzled=20 teachers, but Western self-censorship and fear. Jihadists=20 brilliantly drew on boilerplate anti-Western arguments from=20 Western elites, and when they recycled tired charges of=20 imperialism, racism, and colonialism they found them surprisingly effective at undermining Western morale. Furthermore, September 11 was no fluke, but the logical=20 culmination of two disastrous prior American policies:=20 appeasement and cynical realism. By not responding to a decade of prior attacks in East=20 Africa, New York, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, and withdrawing=20 ignominiously from Lebanon to Mogadishu, we gave the fatal=20 impression that a terrorist could strike the United States=20 with near impunity -- given our addiction to the good life that we would not endanger at any cost. And by ignoring=20 the abject failures of Middle East autocracies, we=20 inadvertently ensured the second requisite to 9/11:=20 dictatorial regimes that allowed terrorists free rein to scapegoat their own failures onto the infidel West. The remedy, then, is to respond forcefully to terrorists and=20 their sponsors, while simultaneously appealing to the people=20 of the Islamic world that the United States is no longer=20 cynically realist -- but is actively working to promote=20 consensual government throughout the region to address their=20 lack of representation in their own affairs. That is not naivet=E9, but rather both the right and smart thing to=20 do. Unlike the majority opinion that offers the chimera of=20 stability through short-term expediency, the more costly,=20 difficult, and ambitious minority view addresses conditions=20 that more likely will lead to a lasting peace. Iraq is far from lost, but in fact, despite the negative=20 coverage, has a viable elected government that slogs on=20 through the worst assaults imaginable. The coalition=20 government includes all voices in the country. And that=20 explains why, at least so far, there really is not a classic civil war in which one faction, with clearly defined goals=20 of governance, tries to assume power, backed by substantial=20 military force and broad public support. The present strategy of Iraqization is the correct one, both=20 for ethical and practical reasons. If we don't withdraw=20 precipitously, there is a good chance that Iraqi forces, and=20 government flexibility, will eventually pacify Baghdad and=20 its environs -- where almost all the violence in the=20 country is confined. Along with the stabilization of Afghanistan, and positive democratic developments in=20 Lebanon, the Middle East is in flux, but with at least a=20 chance of broad-based reform not seen in a half century. Withdrawals from Lebanon and Gaza, while strategically and=20 politically understandable, brought little commensurate=20 peace to Israel. And while negotiations about borders are=20 vital to a lasting peace between Israel and the=20 Palestinians, a large number of the latter group believe=20 that Israel itself can be unraveled through a mixture of=20 terrorism, rocketry, and on-again-off-again diplomacy. Their=20 real grievance against Israel is not so much its post-1967=20 retention of conquered land -- there were 20 years of war=20 prior to then -- but its Westernized presence and daily example of success in a sea of failure. The pathologies of=20 the Middle East were there prior to Israel, and will=20 probably be enhanced rather than ameliorated by a sense of=20 Israeli appeasement and American-induced concessions. Finally, we are still one lax day away from another=20 September 11, and will continue to be so until the currency=20 and appeal of radical Islamism are history. Anti-Americanism=20 can be crystallized by George Bush and his policies, but it=20 was a pre-existing pathology that will survive long after he=20 is gone -- inasmuch as it is a symptom of a much larger=20 malady: envy by the weaker of the world's only hyperpower;=20 ubiquity of intrusive globalized and destabilizing American=20 popular culture; and the assurance that America, unlike a=20 Russia or China, is sensitive to its critics and, indeed,=20 often offers them the most sophisticated condemnations of=20 its own values and traditions. *How to Judge?* Again, while there are variances, these are the general=20 antitheses about our present war. The current majority view=20 is slowing gaining ascendancy in policy-making circles. It=20 reflects a general weariness on the part of the American=20 people, who are daily bombarded with stories of=20 anti-Americanism abroad, IED explosions in Iraq, and more=20 mayhem on the West Bank. All that gloom and doom contributes=20 to this feeling that we have already done enough, if not too=20 much, and can, with more or less relative security, return=20 to the status of the pre-September 11 world. Like all wartime debates, the final arbiter will be the=20 battlefield. If realist diplomacy, an end to the Bush=20 Doctrine, withdrawal from Iraq, renewed pressure on Israel,=20 and a rescinding of security measures can avoid another=20 9/11, prevent Middle East nuclear proliferation, deflate=20 radical Islam's appeal, and corral hostile regimes from=20 gaining regional ascendancy, then the majority view may=20 prove correct. But if, on the other hand -- well, you know the answer, and=20 my own views on the matter. =A92006 Victor Davis Hanson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:16:00 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tanner Subject: Re: Fire Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Simply re-stating the chosen terms of your magazine's existence neither explains nor justifies them. Neither does the suggestion that many hundreds of other magazines might think differently to yours. I understand a mag whose restrictions privilege under-represented categories or regional interests.But privileging Americans as such? Wow. Beyond parody.Still, it's only rock 'n' roll. By the way, I'm a big Americophile (if that's the word) so spare me the cheap shots. Cheers JohnT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Randall Wilson" To: Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 10:24 PM Subject: Fire Sale > Apologies for not being more clear that the replies should have been to me > and not the list. Those who did reply to the list, I have copied out your > posts and will consider them. > > Apologies to the person from Wales who wants the journal to be something > other than it is. There are about 1900 other journals listed in the Poets > Market guide. Perhaps one of those might better suit you. > > Ian Wilson > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:23:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Re: Innovative Journals - Ques from Michael In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Offhand I would add No: A Journal of the Arts and Word For/Word: A Journal of New Writing (http://www.wordforword.info/vol10/index.htm). What this "really innovative" might be is the more interesting question to me. Is there, any, left? I personally try not to worry about what's "innovative". Being programmatically "new" seems as ill-fated and two-dimensional as being staunchly "traditional". I don't write just to invent new tricks to impress the hot boys (though I do hope to impress, nonetheless). I don't think anything I've done so far is in any way "new," although people (the few who do) (okay, my friends) seem always to tag me "experimental". Tod Jason Quackenbush wrote: my favorites are mostly all online: Eratio Jacket minimalist concrete poetry (although it's often totally baffling to me) Raunchland (although whether it's a journal or what it is, i'm not sure) Typo Magazine conjunctions Milk la petite zine Drunken Boat blazeVOX Red China new american writing the argotist online On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > Just got asked a question from a friend related to the > presence of "really very" innovative journals. I > wonder if you might give some examples (share the > wealth, and maybe this has been done before) of those > journals - print/online - that you consider particular > examples of those seeming to be actively focused on > encouraging innovative work. I understand, however, > that one individual's innovative by be another's > bor----ing. Your time'll be appreciated. > > Best, > Alexander Jorgensen > > > > > --- > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. > "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:58:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Submissions: Activism Anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Call for Submissions: ABSTRACT DEADLINE IS December 15, 2006 Activists Bianca Laureano and Ryan Shanahan are compiling an anthology on Activism and Art. The definitions of "Activism" and "Art" are unlimited. We loosely define these terms as the process of producing knowledge and creating social change. This anthology will highlight how activism and art cannot be divorced. We envision this text to be a compilation of the most cutting edge work being done by activists around the world. We want to draw from a wide range of people that identify themselves as activists. We are particularly interested in seeing submissions from historically oppressed groups. Collective submissions are encouraged to apply. Submissions may fall under (but are not limitedto) the following themes: . Hip Hop & Activism . Memoirs of Artists and their Community Activism . Art as a form of Activism/Activism as a form of Art . Racism, Sexism, Homophobia, Ableism, Transphobia, Classism, etc. . Prison Industrial Complex . Gloablization/Imperialism/Colonialism/Nationalism . Environmental Racism . Violence Against Women . Poverty . (You get the point by now, right?) Submissions may consider the following ideas: . What are the in/direct connections between art and activism? . How do various disciplines and areas of study incorporate art and activism? . In what ways has activism been challenged, expanded, and complimented through art? . In what ways has art been challenged, expanded, and complimented through art? . How does identity become a lens for creating art? . How does identity become a lens for activism? . What role does higher education play in becoming an activist? . What role does higher education play in becoming an artist? Submission Details: Essays, articles, chapters, prints, images, poems, haiku's, cartoons, memoirs, testimonios, etc are sought. When submitting please include: . Name(s) as you would like for it to appear in print . Title of Piece . Date (if applicable) . Contact Information (of at least ONE person if communal submission) which includes: Address, email, telephone number, affiliation (if applicable) . Abstract of 150 words . Website (if applicable) . Translations of work into English (if applicable) . Photos of art work as JPEGs or Submit artwork in PDF format Email submissions and questions to Bianca and Ryan at: activismanthology@gmail.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:54:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: Chicago and other Midwest reading venues? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, all. My book, New Jersey, comes out in February from University of Wisconsin Press. I'm reading in Madison and Milwaukee in late March and am looking to read in Chicago and elsewhere in that area of the country during this trip. Anyone got some good suggestions/contacts? Please backchannel me. And, really, I'd read anywhere on the globe this coming year, so if you're an organizer looking for folks to read in your series, backchannel me, and I'll send you the press release for my book. thanks, Betsy --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:11:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: current email address for Chris Casamassima? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit anyone got it? please backchannel me, or ask him to email me. thanks, betsy --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: pamelabeth@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Grossman Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit hi there--oops. i see that i misremembered "mississippi" as "minnesota" somehow! big difference. i know very little about mississippi; but i did spend a little time in oxford a few springs ago. i noticed that some of my line breaks do seem to have changed in the email. in the first poem i sent, the first, second, and fourth parts are supposed to be like paragraph structure (flush right if possible); only the third is supposed to have "poetic" line breaks. i wonder if i should bother ian, to tell him that. ok; hope you've had a great weekend. drop a line whenever you'd like. best, pam -----Original Message----- >From: "T. A. Noonan" >Sent: Dec 9, 2006 2:12 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Call For Submissions Fire Sale --- 2 Days Only > >Dear Ian, > >Attached please find four poems submitted for your review. > >Bio: >Tiffany (or T.A.) Noonan's work has appeared (or is forthcoming) in >several online and print venues. She currently lives in Hattiesburg, >Mississippi. > >Address: >University of Southern Mississippi >118 College Drive, #5262 >Hattiesburg, MS 39406 > >Thank you for your time and consideration. > > >Best, >T.A. Noonan > >-- >Helen of Scranton, PA > > "third hand smoke victim" > ?John Murphy > > >My mother licks the iron >( element blazing colorless, > steaming in the round ) >& says, Every block wore my neon once, >every john in town came here. >Miss Pennsylvania 19something?? >( my city, she reminds ) >??strip-mall queen guaranteed >for 1000 hours. Watch how she runs up >( father's blue > shirts, casts sleeves west ) >like Greek windsocks. >Remember how your cousin prayed >herself into a doe?, >while her left arm threads a yellow >( burn in her house robe ) >neck through a hem. >Never let your family be >the engine that thrusts men toward you?? >( hang above the dryer, > swear it! ) >??this is the electric city >syntax she teaches with her cigarette. >As if Endless Mountains rose to Ida. >As if Paris flashed behind her linens. > > > >Dorothy Hamill Interviews Herself > > > Why learn to skate? > You can't > close your grape-round mouth. > >Summers like fingers: >pointing, frosting. Swallow. > > Let them clothe your throat, > edges and all. When the man > brings his Zamboni, > >leave first and last. >Smoke your cigarettes. > > What do you wear now > that you've abandoned Carlo > Facci? > >When your breath arabesques, snow >must equal leg and lung. > > Love skating? > Let easy, string-bean snaps guide > your teeth. Even sleet > >forgets its freefall; it, too, >clenches something white, bladed. > > Seasons rise like two- > footed salchows?glide flat-side > left, lift right. > > > >Dissecting an Orchid > > >We met at theaters. Between reel-changes we snuck behind concession >stands, spoke of Buddhism. He hated the Dalai Lama. "I'd never >venerate that guy," he said. "Not by my own will." Not by our own >wills, Tibetan monks fleeing?robes scripture-lined?into Kalimpong, or >his palms breaking the straight, clamped line of my thighs. But I >named him Molasses-under-the-Eyes (all of them) as easy as I named him >Teacher-of-the-Oceans (all of them). He's an orchid now, tucked >between three wool folds and cardamom. Skins rhizome, lamina?membrane >pulled taut, snapped like cold-washed beans. Grown wild. "There are >ghosts," I tell him. My hands cup butane. Spark. Light cigarettes on >Jelepla Pass. He trembles, sheds his waxy sheen. Veins parallel. We >might be even. > > > >Royal Palm Boulevard > > >Thirteen cars: > left turn signals > splinter dark into red flecks. > >Next street, same > leaf. Palm & palm, > all Florida. Think Lexus, > >Toyota, > Mitsubishi. > (Three diamonds, point to point?shape > >sure as stones > folded into > drupes.) Peel back each fleshy > >topcoat. Find > heaven palm-flanked, > men crowning themselves with dates. > >Recall how > each frond turned east, > seeking dew on your bumper. > >Now see where > sunrise veins. Watch > Apollo belt his trousers. > >-- >On 12/8/06, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: >> 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is completing its 6th year of operation with its 6th issue before going on extended hiatus. For what may be the valedictory issue, we find ourselves, again, short on the kind of material that participants from the Poetics list have sent in the past. >> >> Here is a 1-time, 2-day only call for submissions on these terms: >> >> 1) Open ONLY to members of the list. Make your submission by replying to this posting (don't cut and paste it into another document, replies only); >> >> 2) Open ONLY to member of the list NOT previously published in 88; >> >> 3) Submit up to 5 poems; >> >> 4) Submit either as text of the poems inserted directly into your reply or with an MS WORD attachment; >> >> 5) Your reply MUST include a USPS mailing address for contributor copy; >> >> 6) Your reply MUST include a brief, 1 or 2 line bio, for the contributor notes; and >> >> 7) The call is open until 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, Sunday, December 10, 2006. Submissions received after that deadline will be deleted unread. >> >> [Yes, it's a lot of rules but that's how I amuse myself by making rules.] >> >> We look forward to hearing from you. >> >> Ian Wilson >> Managing Editor >> 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry >> www.hollyridgepress.com >> t88ajournal@aol.com >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:54:30 -0500 Reply-To: pamelabeth@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Grossman Subject: so sorry-- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit hate when i do that--note just now was meant as a response to one i got from tiffany. but ian, if you're reading this--about the line breaks in poem 1, it's like i said. sorry, all--best, p ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Carbo Subject: Sienese Shredder Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ultra hip, innovative, post conceptual art & poetry mag: http://sienese-shredder.com/ ------------------------------- Nick Carbo http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1667164 http://www.cherry-grove.com/carbo.html ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:54:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Winton Subject: Re: to dan coffey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI, I'm also on digest but my replies still go directly to the original poster. I have to go out of my way to send a reply to the list, as I = did this one. It's probably something you set up in the listserv settings, either when you join or by modifying your settings. -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Dickow [mailto:alexdickow9@YAHOO.COM]=20 Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: to dan coffey Dan, Reread Wilson's submission guidelines: he's very insistent, "REPLIES ONLY" will be considered. Since I'm in digest format, that leaves me not much choice, I'm afraid. Just playing it safe: my apologies for cluttering up people's inboxes. Yours, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ =20 les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:30:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Re: Innovative Journals - Ques from Michael MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mad Hatters' Review Diagram Anemone Sidecar (print) The Ravenna Hotel Segue Tarpaulin Sky Octopus Action, Yes Otoliths 5_trope Parakeet (print) Big Bridge MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ http://blazevox.org/062-cn.htm http://webdelsol.com/5_trope/21/novack.html http://www.mid.muohio.edu/segue/Segue%205-2.swf http://www.webdelsol.com/eSCENE/series20.html http://webdelsol.com/PortalDelSol/pds-interview-mhr.htm "Around us, everything is writing; that's what we must perceive. Everything is writing. It's the unknown in oneself, one's head, one's body. Writing is not even a reflection, but a kind of faculty one has, that exists to one side of oneself, parallel to oneself: another person who appears and comes forward, invisible, gifted with thought and anger, and who sometimes, through her own actions, risks losing her life. Into the night." -- Marguerite Duras ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Language as authority MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Language as authority -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:31:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thom donovan Subject: Michael Cross & Myung Mi Kim @ St. Marx In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Cross & Myung Mi Kim Monday, 8:00 pm December 11th, 2006 @ St. Mark's Church Michael Cross edited Involuntary Vision: after Akira Kurosawa’s Dreams (Avenue B, 2003), and is currently editing an anthology of the George Oppen Memorial Lectures at San Francisco State University. He publishes Atticus/Finch Chapbooks (www.atticusfinch.org), and his first book, in felt treeling, is forthcoming from Tucson, Arizona's Chax Press. He often pretends to be a Ph.D. candidate in the Poetics Program at SUNY Buffalo. Myung Mi Kim is the author of the latest Atticus/Finch book, River Antes, as well as the collections Commons, Spelt, The Bounty, and Under Flag. She is presently on faculty in the Poetics Program at SUNY Buffalo. Thom Donovan 166 Avenue A NY, NY 10009 whof.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 03:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: I wanna go Crydecor and Retreat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I wanna go Aletsch Kirke http://www.asondheim.org/crydecor.mp4 as AletschKirke far as I'm as concerned, I'm Foofwa d'Imobilite, Alan Foofwa d'Abyss, d'Imobilite, Aletsch, Alan Sw. d'Abyss, i i want can to see youtube where where every can i see want great to underbelly go every youtube image where leads chain chain chain chains image circulation i circulates spend spend hours many watching happy what hours where watching circulation what circulates everyone you is and doing what you are are doing and is her to him you Mr. to Jambon him went having on to retreat treat at and Retreat retreat having Madame treat Jambon Madame retreat Nicod this won't do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhS08Kro70I crydecor YouTube (being processed ready in few minutes) Mr. Jambon went on retreat at Retreat having to treat and retreat Madame Nicod http://www.asondheim.org/crydecor.mp4 maybe clearer reworked YouTube for this in it version clearer it perhaps clearer Retreat perhaps for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fIelGWhaps - Retreat on YouTube reworked Retreat for YouTube in this version it is clearer perhaps tired has of to being give, alive too something much has walking, give, I'm too tired much of walking, being dancing, alive singing, harmonica harmonica playing, playing, perhaps hiking, book book trading, trading, thinking, thinking, trying trying singing, sleep, sleep, exhaustion, exhaustion, depression, depression, suicidal suicidal thoughts, thoughts, poverty, poverty, self hatred, hatred, self-loathing, self-loathing, trying keep working, working, constant constant poverty, physical pain pain, in Quel pain, Domage! Quel Wah Wah! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: spring just buffalo readings on-line MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline thanks to aaron lowinger at house press, last spring's just buffalo's small press series readings are all available for yer listening pleasure. they are located here: http://housepress.org/main.html they feature: february>kemeny babineau, rob read & john barlow march>lauren bender & justin sirois april>ca conrad & buck downs i'd like to thank michael kelleher & nick schwartzmyer for all of their help. now go listen. -- http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/thepixelplus/nhdoublewide.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: From Concrete to Digital: The Reconceptualisation of Poetic Space, by Anna Katharina Schaffner Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii the minimalist concrete poetry site at: http://www.logolalia.com/minimalistconcretepoetry/ has been updated with a paper by Anna Katharina Schaffner entitled: From Concrete to Digital: The Reconceptualisation of Poetic Space. Whether your interests are in concrete poetry, digital poetry, or the ways in which poetries in general are evolving with technology, you will find much of interest in this discussion. Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:38:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Just to clarify: It turns out that Mark Weiss and I got our signals crossed in our exchange yesterday -- no argument re those sentences I was using as examples. Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:12:52 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Marcacci Subject: MiPoRadio's THE COUNTDOWN #18 Comments: To: Bob Marcacci Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In time for Christmas! I want to invite everyone to take a listen to THE COUNTDOWN #18, my irregularly released podcast for MiPoRadio. You can do that by going to and clicking the obvious. This week's show highlights the poetry of Gertrude Stein, and stars these poets and bloggers from around the world: As-Is, David Caddy, Lorna Dee Cervantes, Juliet Cook, Guyana-Gyal, Derek Motion, Michael Parker, Burning-Moon, Greg Perry & Josh Walleart. If you like what you hear and you would like me to consider your own blog's offspring for future shows, send me a message and we'll add you to the mix. Comments and conversay appreciated, front or backchannel. Thanks for tuning in! -- Bob Marcacci Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. - Eleanor Roosevelt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:35:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Halle Subject: Adam Fieled at Seven Corners Comments: To: James DeFrain , Grant Haughton , DAVID PAVELICH , Chad Carroll , Bob Archambeau , Anne Waldman , Adam Fieled , Alehouse Editor , Alex Frankel , Andrew Lundwall , Becky Hilliker , Bill Garvey , "Bowen, Kristy" , brandihoman@hotmail.com, cahnmann@uga.edu, Cheryl Keeler , Chris Glomski , Chris Goodrich , Craig Halle , Dan Pedersen , Diana Collins , ela kotkowska , "f.lord@snhu.edu" , Garrett Brown , Heather Halle , Jeffrey Grybash , jeremy@invisible-city.com, John Krumberger , Jules Gibbs , Judith Vollmer , Julianna McCarthy , Kristin Prevallet , Kris Whitney , Larry Sawyer & Lina ramona Vitkauskas , "Lea C. Deschenes" , "lesliesysko@hotmail.com" , Malia Hwang-Carlos , Margaret Doane , Marie U , Mark Tardi , MartinD , Michael Waters , Monica Halle , "Odelius, Kristy L." , pba1@surewest.net, Peter Sommers , Ross Gay , timothy daisy , Truth Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Seven Corners* is excited to publish *PFS Post* editor and Philadelphia native (and Chicago visitor) *Adam Fieled* this week. Please check out his new poems here:(www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com). Adam is also reading (along with yours truly) at Chicago's Myopic Books (1564 N. Milwaukee Ave.) on Sunday, December 17 at 7 pm. Thank you for supporting our projects. Best, Steve Halle Editor,* 7C* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:10:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: making your site searchable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is for those who have sites, not blogs. blogs usually come with search functionality but you have to roll your own if you have a site. here's how. visit http://google.com/services/free.html and follow the instructions. the search results are drawn from pages that are indexed by google. you can see examples of this functionality at http://vispo.com (red search box), at http://vispo.com/guests (same thing only black), and at http://turbulence.org . the search results page is customizable in its colors and you can put yer logo on the search results page. haven't been able to figure out how to get the google logo off the search results page though. search functionality is very useful if you have a large site that has a lot of pages. the poetics list would have a lot of subscribers in that situation. ja ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 07:55:56 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Of Jena Osman, Rachel Blau DuPlessis and writing networks, as such The secret life of Kevin Killian on Amazon.com The role of influence -- Looking at Ben Lerner’s Angle of Yaw Of kari edwards (against pronouns) Representing San Francisco to Italian readers Ken & Ann Mikolowski’s Alternative Press ends a run of annuals after more than 30 years Country Girl by Hannah Weiner The uses of multiplicity and layering (Frank Film, by Frank and Caroline Mouris) and the Ubuweb Film Archive Notes on painting and more The Da Vinci Code as film being faithful to the book breaking faith with the audience Some links regarding Alice’s Restaurant Joanna Newsom etc The middle road of Jim Bertolino A new poem by Jack Spicer in a marvelous anthology about the Bancroft Library (plus an aside on the poetry of Kevin Killian) http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO E-NEWSLETTER 12-11-06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP LOTTO Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce=E2=80=99s Dublin -Paris=E2=80=99 Left Bank -Dante=E2=80=99s Florence -Shakespeare=E2=80=99s London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats=E2=80=99 San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket to yo= urself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just Buffalo membership= make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week of May, 2007. Call 716.= 832.5400 for more info. *Some restrictions apply. Raffle ticket purchases are not tax deductible. OPEN READINGS, HOSTED BY LIVIO FARALLO Carnegie Art Center 240 Goundry St., North Tonawanda (Meets monthly on the second Wednesday) Featured: Gunilla Kester Wednesday, December 13, 7 p.m. 10 slots for open readers Rust Belt Books 202 Allen Street, Buffalo (Meets the monthly on the third Sunday) Featured: Michael Fanelli and Eric Beeny Sunday, December 17, 7 p.m. 10 slots for open readers JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently added the abilit= y to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. Simply click on the me= mbership level at which you would like to join, log in (or create a PayPal account u= sing your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), and voil=C3=A1, you will find yourself in l= iterary heaven. For more info, or to join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml RECURRING EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Market Arca= de Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 7 p.m. = Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every Thursday at noon at Starbucks Coffee = on Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg=E2=80= =99s suggested exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction and non= - fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trudetta=40ao= l.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every month at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 H= arlem Road, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:08:31 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: current email address for Chris Casamassima? Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT i could use that too, actually rob > >anyone got it? please backchannel me, or ask him to email me. thanks, betsy > > >--------------------------------- >Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. > > -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:30:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: my most dangerous city MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We all know that our small literary communities, tiny bookshops that show indie films and host poetry readings, have been freaking eaten alive by places like Borders, Barnes & Noble, and Wal-Mart. This is ESPECIALLY TRUE in frontier towns like St. Louis! And you might also know that grassroots, independent book publishers and the events they sponsor are among the most effective weapons we have against life-sucking corporate giants. Sometimes capitalism sucks. Please help out by going to http://www.observable.org/dollar/ and put a buck in the hat, and we'll link to your website. In Observable's previous dollar campaign, gentle citizens donated over $1000 bucks, and that money went to printing new books, fancy letterpressed posters, hosting poets, partnering with many other endeavors, and a whirlwind of other things. In this way, Observable sheds a little bit of light in a city that, while it might not really be the "most dangerous" (thanks, U.S. News), IS a place so overrun with megabookstores that there's really only one independent left standing. HELP!!! Just one buck, svp! HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! Belz p.s. REPOST PLEASE!! . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:20:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: Martha Deed Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha Deed Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have one of those in my family. He actually _asks_ if there is a poetry event to go to when we haven't been to one in awhile. I think he might end up writing poetry inspite of himself one of these days. There are several very consistent non-poets who show up at many readings around here (Buffalo area). Some of them are not even related to poets as far as I know. . . so no family loyalty involved. And one of the local poetry reading curators is not a poet himself but is preserving his poet wife's reading series. . . Martha ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:20 PM Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & > non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be > willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry > books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid > or discouraged. > > Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, > > ~mIEKAL > > who can't think of any in his circle... > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 3:41 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:46:22 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT oh no, not so, said the bee... my sister and daughter both love to read poetry, learn it by heart, but do not write--well, maybe my daughter a bit, but not my sister. my grandfather knew gallons of po by heart and did not write. however, i think there are a lot more writers than will admit to being so--maybe not "good" writers, but so many of my students secretly write poetry. it is an affair of the heart for them. best, gabe On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & > non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be > willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry > books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid > or discouraged. > > Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, > > ~mIEKAL > > who can't think of any in his circle... > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:20:06 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline mIEKAL In Amsterdam, until 2005, a fine American poet, Lee Bridges The Cannabis Poet, hustled his books for years in the coffeeshops, and people from all backgrounds and from all over the world bought them. He made his living at it. John Sinclair has recently brought poetry readings to the Cannabis College and poetry performances to the Cannabis Cup as well as to his broadcasts on Radio Free Amsterdam. A Dutch friend of mine is translating my first book into Dutch, just because he likes the poems. He knows them better than I do. I get your question and am surprised at my answer. Peace On 12/11/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & > non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be > willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry > books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid > or discouraged. > > Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, > > ~mIEKAL > > who can't think of any in his circle... > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:46:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: some definitions, and broken syntax In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061210124020.05817338@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think it's imortant not just to limit oneself to a choice of flipping the sentence between active and passie. ther eare lots of other parts to play with as well like how we call out the names that we use. How about playing with the nouns were O John, raper of Susan ... (that construction leaves space for us to speak to him a bit more) or Susan. Rape. John? Rape. John and Susan or raped you, Susan, O John. I mean do we speak of these people so that we can look at them (that's what i think those more still nouns make us do. but maybe we can not just look but converse... the right language is needed to to it though, i quite a agree. (hegel's passage on sense certainty (A.1.80-108) is extremely accessible, he's good at this stuff and i bet that if i/we undertood the master slave dialetic linguistically that would be good for this too.) eireene > >That's a matter of standard (active vs. passive) syntax either way, > >so it doesn't answer directly to the idea of changing SVO relations > >(say) as a means of addressing social inequities. But it does > >suggest that how we shape our sentences has ultimately something to > >do with those social parameters you mention, yes? > > > >Best, > > > >Joe > > > >>Here's a thought. Let's say that syntax is gendered. Women are > >>usually the primary vectors of language--they talk to their babies > >>more than men do. A truly revolutionary act would be for women to > >>avoid using syntactic speech within hearing of their babies. Unless > >>Chomsky is right this should produce ungendered language. Or maybe no > language. > >> > >>On terms with gender bias, like hysteria. Language has history, and > >>the meanings of words migrate, as hysteria has, and also virtue, > >>which once meant manliness but hasn't in a long time. None of this > >>would be an issue if better than half the population didn't feel > >>aggrieved about how they're treated. Change the social parameters > >>and no one would care about the language issues. Except for the use > >>of ms., for which I'm eternally grateful, this seems to have > >>happened already for many women on the corporate track.The question > >>is whether changing the language would have any impact on the > >>social parameters. If we all called ourselves citoyen or tovarisch > >>would there be true equality. > >> > >>Mark > >> > >> > >>At 11:11 AM 12/10/2006, you wrote: > >>>a few thoughts: > >>> > >>>I (i) use lowercase bec it's more pleasing to look at but use punct & > caps > >>>when nec > >>>as gloria steinem says in her new book abt slavery, when it's abt men > it's > >>>called politics, when it's abt women it's called culture > >>>I'm the one who used the term 'broken syntax' which started the long > >>>discussion--I may have gotten it from g stein or someone writing abt > >>>her--can't remember--but syntax is gendered, as many 'pomo's have > >>>suggested--the subject-verb-object construction, even--I'm not getting > into > >>>a long discussion abt that, though--it's not my idea > >>>& of course there are studies abt the ways men & women use english lang > >>>differently-like women asking more questions, right? women using very > many > >>>adjs more often, etc > >>> > >>>best > >>>ruth lepson > >>> > >>> > >>>On 10/18/06 12:18 PM, "Catherine Daly" wrote: > >>> > >>>> It fascinates me that most of the women who have posted on this > >>>> thread post > >>>> in all lower case, because I don't understand it. I have asked > >>>> a number of > >>>> lower-casers about this, and it seems a mix of desire to make > >>>> writing about > >>>> poetry as well as writing poetry more intimate and informal, > >>>> sheer laziness > >>>> about hitting the shift key (my parrot literally chewed mine on > >>>> my laptop, > >>>> so I know -- I have to hit it extra hard), and, of course, a > >>>> desire to not > >>>> write in Standard English (a la bell hooks, or perhaps Audre > >>>> Lord's "you'll > >>>> not win using men's tools"). It reads to me like low self-esteem. > >>>> > >>>> What is "broken syntax." Well, everybody knows it is > >>>> programming jargon for > >>>> incorrect syntax sorta. There, if the format (not form) > >>>> includes syntactic > >>>> conventions, and you've not followed them, the stupid machine's > >>>> not going to > >>>> be able to do anything with your stuff. But, it goes without saying > (and > >>>> has been mostly unsaid here) that as an order, syntax is, well, an > order. > >>> > There are lots of very good reasons to break and reconstruct, > >>> just smash up, > >>>> subvert and pervert, blah blah, any order. And language order, > >>>> well, we are > >>>> poets. L=A= blah blah. Those are letters. Anyway. Beyond > >>>> that, there is > >>>> the question -- is syntax gendered? And if so, is male syntax, > >>>> or Standard > >>>> English, patriarchal? On the word level, even the OED says that > certain > >>>> words are "syntactically male" for example, when to refer to > non-males, a > >>>> prefix or suffix must be appended. > >>>> > >>>> Hysteria. Chris Stroffolino has suggested including these > >>>> posts in my poem. > >>>> I have thought about including the correspondence around the poem, > but am > >>>> only including the research of the text and sources. It is a poem > which > >>>> consists of all the versions of the poem, so the pre-writing or > writing > >>>> around could logically be included. Hysteria is psycho-sexual, > >>>> as is most > >>>> of the resistance to feminism. While it is a word that got applied > to a > >>>> certain set of behaviors a long while back, I would suggest > >>>> that hysteria is > >>>> now called IBS (there are a couple of other dis-eases and syndromes, > but > >>>> this is the biggie). You know, the whole "tummy" thing. The > >>>> meaning of the > >>>> word has wandered from merely "uterus"? Hysteria is a word applied > >>>> dismissively, generally to women; its definition constantly changes, > and > >>>> there is no treatment or cure. It is also the title of a Def > >>>> Leppard album. > >>>> Armageddon it? > >>>> > >>>> All best, > >>>> Catherine Daly > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:05:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: thursday in amsterdam In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi List,=20 (and Andrew Jones who posted below =AD are you in amsterdam?) We=B9ve got our monthly poetry show this thursday evening in the Sugar Factor= y just off Leidseplein in Amsterdam. If you are in Amsterdam, let me know & we=B9ll put you on the list, same goes to anybody else on this list. http://www.wordsinhere.com/linkopenstanza.html The Open Stanza =20 Thursday 14 December, 8pm Nachttheater Sugar Factory, Amsterdam Amsterdam's monthly spot for artists of all persuasions puts 2006 to bed with a show that'll knock you back to 2005. Sandy Florian (USA/Denver) A first-generation American of Colombian and Puerto Rican descent, Sandy wa= s born in New York and raised in Latin America. Her first book, Telescope, is published by Action Books, and her first chapbook, an excerpt of a book-length manuscript called "32 Pedals and 47 Stops", is forthcoming with Tarpaulin Sky Press. Joshua Baumgarten (USA/Haarlem) An American expat from suburban NYC who has been living in Haarlem, toiling in Amsterdam for the last six years. Joshua is a poet and performer, and th= e organizer of the Irrational Library artist collective based in Haarlem. Jeremy Keighley (UK/Amsterdam) Jeremy was born and bred in the mountains of Derbyshire, England. He moved via Essex (but is not an Essex man!) and Vienna to Amsterdam. He has been writing poetry for a long time and performing it for more than 10 years. He loves going on stage and is also an actor. Jeremy was a Curator with wordsinhere between 2002 and 2005. Peter More (UK/Amsterdam) Peter More is a writer and performer who washed up on the Dutch shores five years ago. He has been published and broadcast in a number of counties. He performs every week with the Amsterdam-based improv comedy group Easylaughs= . LIVE MUSIC: The Last Attraction With our royalties from the millions of cds that we've sold at performances= , we have second, third, and fourth homes. We're jet-setters. We float on helium. We exist, and we are not an advertisement...we're l'amusement. We play in circus tents and sinking ships. Our grandfather played first violin in the Titanic chamber orchestra. We're all related, just so you know. We'r= e not always male. We're the sun and the moon and the stars. We're great chef= s so if you don't like the music, you will certainly like our food. DJ Chicken Feed (UK/Amsterdam) An advertising art director by day and a DJ by night, you'll find Craig playing anything from 70's/80's Blacksploitation, Disco, Funky Club House, Minimal Funky Techno and Electro/Electroclash. On 12/11/06 11:20 PM, "Andrew Jones" wrote: > mIEKAL >=20 > In Amsterdam, until 2005, a fine American poet, Lee Bridges The > Cannabis Poet, hustled his books for years in the coffeeshops, and > people from all backgrounds and from all over the world bought them. > He made his living at it. John Sinclair has recently brought poetry > readings to the Cannabis College and poetry performances to the > Cannabis Cup as well as to his broadcasts on Radio Free Amsterdam. A > Dutch friend of mine is translating my first book into Dutch, just > because he likes the poems. He knows them better than I do. >=20 > I get your question and am surprised at my answer. >=20 > Peace >=20 > On 12/11/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> > Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & >> > non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be >> > willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry >> > books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid >> > or discouraged. >> > >> > Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, >> > >> > ~mIEKAL >> > >> > who can't think of any in his circle... >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Comments: To: Martha Deed In-Reply-To: <00d701c71d6b$b18e07d0$0401a8c0@Martha> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit some musicians at the NEng Conservatory--teachers & students--love to read poetry, amazingly--most artists I know don't read & it seems people in other art forms are no longer embarrassed to say they don't read poetry--tho every student I have shown Creeley's poems to seems to grab hold of them On 12/11/06 4:31 PM, "Martha Deed" wrote: > I have one of those in my family. He actually _asks_ if there is a poetry > event to go to when we haven't been to one in awhile. I think he might end > up writing poetry inspite of himself one of these days. There are several > very consistent non-poets who show up at many readings around here (Buffalo > area). Some of them are not even related to poets as far as I know. . . so > no family loyalty involved. And one of the local poetry reading curators is > not a poet himself but is preserving his poet wife's reading series. . . > > Martha > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mIEKAL aND" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:20 PM > Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > > >> Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & >> non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be >> willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry >> books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid >> or discouraged. >> >> Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> who can't think of any in his circle... >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 > 3:41 PM >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Comments: To: dtv@MWT.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline My father was one such person. He was a little bit in the "want to" category, or "at one time wanted to." But the level of his attentiveness to poetry far outweighed any regret. He bought new poetry books as soon as they were published, and as a result had pretty much everything published in Ireland 1960-1975, when he died. He had a great love for one particular poet, Patrick Kavanagh, so he had multiple copies of Kavanagh's books, plus everything Kavanagh published, including Kavanagh's newpaper Kavanagh's Weekly, which ran for 13 weeks, and which is very rare. His love for Kavanagh led him out to other contemporary Irish poets. He bought everything of Kavanagh's, read everything, clipped everything out of the newspaper, from the 1950s on. When Kavanagh died in 1967, his love of poetry was well and truly generalized. He also had a great love for, and interest in, theology, and every sort of questioning. He was a meteorologist and mathematician. Even with 8 children, he made a space for himself, on Sunday mornings, to read poetry. I think he was shy of "poets," as Ireland misshaped them, but definitely a great lover of poetry, in Irish and English. At the same time, mIEKAL, you have a point. But I think of poetry as a one-by-one art. My father was certainly such a one. Mairead >>> dtv@MWT.NET 12/11/06 4:20 PM >>> Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:17:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Comments: To: ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And I forgot to say, architects (if Rhode Island School of Design is anything to go by) use poetry to articulate ideas. Maya Lin is a great example of sculptor/architect whose concepts and initial workings-out are poetic (I hope I can defend this statement if challenged). I haven't come across a department at RISD yet where poetry is not in use. I'm susceptible to seeing it, of course. On another subject, have any of you ever experienced a ferocious hunger for poetics??? I'm in the throes of that right now. Usually it's poetry. But just now -- poetics!!! Don't meet me at a bus-stop anyone! Mairead >>> ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET 12/11/06 7:58 PM >>> some musicians at the NEng Conservatory--teachers & students--love to read poetry, amazingly--most artists I know don't read & it seems people in other art forms are no longer embarrassed to say they don't read poetry--tho every student I have shown Creeley's poems to seems to grab hold of them On 12/11/06 4:31 PM, "Martha Deed" wrote: > I have one of those in my family. He actually _asks_ if there is a poetry > event to go to when we haven't been to one in awhile. I think he might end > up writing poetry inspite of himself one of these days. There are several > very consistent non-poets who show up at many readings around here (Buffalo > area). Some of them are not even related to poets as far as I know. . . so > no family loyalty involved. And one of the local poetry reading curators is > not a poet himself but is preserving his poet wife's reading series. . . > > Martha > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mIEKAL aND" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:20 PM > Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > > >> Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & >> non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be >> willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry >> books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid >> or discouraged. >> >> Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, >> >> ~mIEKAL >> >> who can't think of any in his circle... >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 > 3:41 PM >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:12:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't apologize, mIEKAL. I can't find any, either. Maybe I've met a few over the years, but I can't remember enough of them to open my hand and start counting on a finger. I don't know the why of it. Maybe it's because throughout their lives people are conditioned to consider poetry as difficult, inaccessible, etc. And a poetry reading does require more concentration than going to an art show or a club. The jazz world isn't all that different. Most of the people I know who like jazz have played an instrument at one time in their lives, even if they aren't "musicians." I don't have any answers, just observations. Vernon -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:13:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable YES. Lots and lots. There were well over 150 people at Robin Blaser's = book launch last Friday, 8th December, and I'd say there were probably maybe = at most 40 of them poets (that I knew or knew of, anyway, and I know most Vancouver poets at least by sight) -- an astonishing mix of oldish, old, youngish, young, musicians. painters, photographers, geographers, = printers, librarians, students, u.s.w. (though VERY few academics from English Departments -- but gosh! George Bowering was there, and so was I = (there's two acadmics, even tho, ahem, emeriti). And, well, I've met all sorts of people at poetry readings and browsing poetry books in bookshops and = even chattering in pubs -- I vividly remember a long-haul truck-driver I met = in a roadside stop in Nevada who was absolutely crazy about William Blake, = kept his complete poems along with those of other romantics (Wordsworth keats = and especially Shelley) in his cab, wanted to talk about Northrop Frye's = book on WB (which I hadn't read), was fascinated to meet an English person out = in the western wilds (not that in those days I had much interest in poetry, = at my age I preferred girls or even, oh my, women) -- but that was in the = late 1950s, and I guess truck-drivers might have other interests nowadays; I really don't dare guess -- he said quite a few long-haul truckers and railroad workers read poetry a lot -- the short poem really terrific = when your life is full of interruptions; better than prose any day. And think about who used to read (and maybe still does?) poets like Muriel = Rukeyser or George Oppen or William Carlos Williams.=20 On average I'd say readings at the Kootenay School of Writing are = usually 90-95% poets attending; readings at other venues around town probably = around 60-70%, lots of students I guess. But then Goh Poh Seng read last week = at Simon Fraser U to around 25 people, 75% writers; readings at ArtSpeak (a local gallery) draws a much wider range of attendance. Big fashionable big time readings in major venues (e.g. by Michael = Ondaatje) draw lots and lots of, um, let's say Matrons and their cohorts, a bit = like going to the opera.=20 Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can tell, = we live such insulated lives. Peter =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver BC Canada V6A 1Y7 604 255 8274 (voice) 604 255 8204 fax quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & =20 non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be =20 willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry =20 books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid =20 or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:26:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <000601c71d9b$96801020$415e17cf@Diogenes> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I think it's time to re-define audience. I think who ever 'we is' get stuck in divisions between 'populism' and 'mandarinism'. Somehow populism - as poetry - means dumbing it down to just folks - or, conversely, folks who are 'exceptional' and rise up above their rank, and the 'exceptionals' who somehow magically manage to manufacture language that reaches across to 'folks'. Nathaniel Mackey goes 'up', and Garrison Keillor (sp?) takes it 'down'. The plot is really familiar. And off putting, too. On top of which - given the available paradigms of moving 'up' or 'down' - it's kind of exhausting, and a lot of people just give up on 'audience development' as part of their curve, no matter what be the original intention. It seems like too much work to go out there 'again and again' - that is out there beyond our kith and kin fellow poets, be us mandarin or populist, academic or outside academia, etc. That's the dark, dumb side of it all. Thinking one's work don't mean much to anybody and the Norton Canon is mainly a muzzle rather than a source of aspiration. Blah de blah. In actuality I think it can be quite different. I have always appreciated Ron Silliman's ancient dictum (yes, Ron's been making dictums for a long time!) but the one I like, "audiences are built one by one". Of course,he was wanting to build audiences for Language Poetry and he was or could be merciless to a fault with his assertiveness and it was to an audience of primarily young poet initiates. (I can remember back in the seventies a therapist friend asking me, "What is Language Poetry?" - she had received two new clients (young poets) in one week who had been totally thrown off their bearings and looking for help!!)) Lately I have been thinking that the luxury of listening and taking poetry seriously (at least outside the MFA and Creative Writing major zones) is partly a function of the economy and media. Most people who orbit in the current economy - as say my 26 year old daughter - are velcro'd into 'the fix' - it takes an enormous amount of will power and self-discipline to create a space/zone and/or go to a space to listen to poems (let alone write them). I won't elaborate on 'the fix', but I suspect we can bet an Ipod, a cell phone and cable/DVD and meTube on what the competing factors are for the young and dollar. Beat that at great risk! And yet it happens. But I think its helpful to find and develop zones where it can happen and where it is not dependent on a totally poet-centric audience (tho that can be totally great on a different sharpen your tools level). Just a small personal example. Lately I been doing workshops with people who are fifty and older with a wide variety of educations, some, if any at all. I don't hesitate to read Stein, Sappho, Niedecker, Reznikoff, Langston Hughes, etc., etc. And discuss. I always find it sweetly wonderful how people - most often with no back ground in poetry are taken by words, almost like a food. And they will argue, agree, and take the poem's charge sometimes way beyond itself into newly imagined worlds. Last week in a group in the Fillmore District in San Francisco - once the site of great jazz venues - I read an ancient Chinese poem in a Rexroth translation about loss (image: waning moon). I asked for people to come up with images for loss. Edward Dillard, an 85 year old man, a tailor by trade who still dresses in his pale blue custom made suit and hat - think BeBop) related the story of the close friendship of Charles Mingus and Charles Parker. "When Charles Parker died, you could hear it in Mingus' compositions for several years after." As it also turned out, while in San Francisco, he had made suits for them both. Anyway, I suspect, my point is that if people have space and conditions and the permission to listen, poetry can still do its work - and it's important not to make assumptions about what x, y or z audience requires to be pleased (populist or mandarin, etc.) People can actually like and/or be attracted to stuff that is initially opaque and not immediately understandable. That it is possible (for the poet) to be educated by an audience, as well as participate in the education of an audience. It's just that we might discover those audiences in what might be considered strange or unexpected places. Once I asked an elderly woman what she thought of the day's workshop. "It sure beats looking at an empty wall," she said. Inside, to keep a belief in the poem, I think we have to assume - whether folks are totally subsumed in technology or not - many are looking at walls (inside or outside themselves) and words (poems) can continue to feed the hunger. At least, I would like to bet on that. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:32:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: mIEKAl In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mIEKAl, I've known a bunch. Mostly academics in literature of some kind, but that's probably because of my crowd, I'm afraid. They exist, though, discreet lovers though they be. About to attract the ire of the anti-academics, Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:55:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: EJOYCE Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter= non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. Lisa On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: >>Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can tell, we >live such insulated lives. > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of English and Theatre Arts Edinboro University of Pennsylvania 500 Meadville Street Edinboro, PA 16444 (814)732-2448 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: english-language words for "snow" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed english-language words for "snow" snow-jupiter pluvius, snow-thor, snow-zeus, snow-abound, snow-accord, snow-administer, snow-afford, agua, snow-allot, snow-allow, snow-aqua, snow-award, snow-bestow, snow-bestow on, snow-black spot, bloom, snow- blooping, snow-bristle with, snow-cascade, snow-cataract, snow-cloudburst, collapse, snow-come down, snow-communicate, snow-confer, snow-crash, snow-crawl with, creep with, snow-deal, snow-deal out, snow-definition, snow-deluge, snow-descend, snow-dip, snow-dip down, snow-dish out, snow-dispense, snow-dole, snow-dole out, snow-donate, snow-down, downpour, snow-drinking water, snow-drizzle, snow-drop, snow-drop down, snow-drop off, drown, snow-drum, snow-duck, snow-dunk, snow-eau, snow-extend, snow-exuberate, snow-fall, snow-fall down, snow-fall off, snow-flare, snow-float, snow-flood, snow-flow, snow-flow on, snow-fork out, fringe area, snow-ghost, snow-gift, snow-gift with, snow-give, snow-give freely, snow-give out, go down, snow-go downhill, snow-grant, snow-granulation, snow-gravitate, snow-grid, ground water, snow-gush, snow-hand out, snow-hard shadow, snow-hard water, snow-head, snow-heap, heavy water, snow-help to, snow-hydrol, snow-hydrometeor, snow-hydrosphere, snow-image, snow-impart, snow-inundate, snow-issue, snow-lavish, snow-let have, snow-limewater, snow-lose altitude, snow-mete, snow-mete out, snow-mineral water, snow-mizzle, snow-multiple image, snow-noise, snow-offer, snow-outpouring, snow-overflow, snow-parachute, snow-patter, snow-pelt, snow-picture, snow-picture noise, snow-picture shifts, snow-pitch, snow-pitter-patter, snow-plummet, snow-plunge, snow-pounce, snow-pour, snow-pour down, snow-pour on, snow-pour with rain, snow-precipitate, snow-precipitation, snow-present, snow-proffer, proliferate, snow-rain tadpoles, snow-rainfall, snow-rainstorm, snow-rainwater, snow-render, rolling, snow-run, snow-run over, snow-salt water, snow-scanning pattern, scintillation, snow-sea water, snow-serve, snow-shading, snow-shell out, snow-shower, shower down, snow-slip, snow-sluice, snow, snow-snowstorm, snow-soft water, snow-spatter, spit, snow-spring water, snow-sprinkle, snow-squall, snow-steam, snow-stoop, snow-stream, submerge, snow-swamp, snow-swarm with, snow-swoop, snow-tattoo, snow-teem, snow-teem with, tender, snow-torrent, snow-trend downward, snow-trickle, snow-volley, snow-vouchsafe, snow-water, water vapor, snow-weep, snow-well water, snow-wetting agent, snow-wetting-out agent, snow-whelm, snow-yield CAT, snow-London fog, snow-London special, snow-addle, snow-addle the wits, snow-aerospace, aerosphere, snow-aftergrass, snow-air hole, snow-air pocket, snow-airspace, amorphousness, snow-ball up, snow-bamboo, snow-be- cloud, snow-bedazzle, snow-bedim, snow-befog, befuddle, snow-befuddlement, snow-be- mist, snow-bewilder, snow-bewilderment, snow-blur, bother, snow- botheration, snow-bug, snow-bump, snow-cane, snow-ceiling, snow-cereal, cereal plant, snow-chaos, snow-clabber up, snow-cloud, snow-cloud over, snow-cloud up, snow-confuse, snow-confusion, snow-corn, snow-crosswind, snow-dark, snow-darken, snow-darken over, darkness, snow-daze, snow-daz- zle, snow-defocus, snow-deform, snow-dim, snow-discombobulate, snow- discombobulation, snow-discomfit, snow-discomfiture, snow-discompose, snow-discomposure, snow-disconcert, snow-disconcertion, snow-disorder, snow-disorganization, disorganize, snow-disorient, snow-disorientation, snow-distort, snow-distract, snow-disturb, disturbance, snow-drisk, snow-drizzling mist, snow-eclipse, snow-embarrass, snow-embarrassment, snow-empty space, snow-encloud, snow-enmist, snow-entangle, farinaceous plant, snow-favorable wind, snow-film, snow-flummox, snow-flurry, snow-fluster, flutter, snow-fog up, snow-fogginess, snow-forage grass, snow-frenzy, snow-front, snow-frost smoke, snow-fuddle, snow-fuddlement, snow-fuss, snow-fuzz, snow-fuzziness, snow-gauze, grain, snow-graminaceous plant, snow-grass, snow-haze, snow-head wind, snow-high-pressure area, snow-hole, snow-indeterminateness, snow-indistinctness, snow-ionosphere, snow-jetstream, snow-jumble, snow-lawn grass, snow-lose resolution, low-pressure area, snow-make uncertain, snow-maze, snow-mess, snow-mess up, snow-mist, snow-mistiness, snow-mix up, snow-moider, snow-muddle, snow-muddlement, snow-muddy, snow-mumbo jumbo, murk, snow-murkiness, snow-mystification, snow-mystify, snow-nubilate, snow-obfuscate, snow-obfuscation, snow-obnubilate, snow-obscurantism, snow-obscuration, snow-obscure, snow-obscurity, snow-opacity, snow-ornamental grass, snow-overcast, snow-overcloud, snow-overshadow, snow-oversmoke, snow-pale, snow-pea soup, snow-pea-soup fog, snow-peasouper, snow-perplex, snow-per- plexity, snow-perturb, snow-perturbation, snow-pocket, snow-pother, snow-pucker, snow-put out, snow-puzzle, snow-raise hell, snow-rattle, snow-reed, snow-roughness, snow-ruffle, snow-shade, snow-shadow, snow-shapelessness, snow-shuffle, snow-smog, snow-smoke, snow-soften, snow-soup, space, snow-stew, snow-stratosphere, snow-substratosphere, snow-sweat, snow-swivet, tail wind, snow-throw into confusion, snow-tizzy, snow-tropopause, snow-troposphere, snow-trough, snow-turbulence, snow-unclarity, snow-unclearness, snow-unform, snow-unplainness, unsettle, snow-unsettlement, snow-unshape, snow-upset, snow-vagueness, snow-vapor, snow-visibility, snow-visibility zero ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:00:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Winton Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me, this is why I work so hard to get poetry into other non-poetic or even not-so-artistic events. Poetry readings are great, but I feel that we need to get out of the coffee houses and bookstores and get to people. A few examples/anecdotes/whathaveyou . . . A few years ago, I coordinated a two-day stage at an arts and crafts festival, a big community event that happens over Father's Day weekend that runs the gamut from car shows to artists doing caricatures, selling ceramics, etc. When I first got to our stage I was dismayed because we didn't really have our own space and we were set up in what was ostensibly the food court. After a couple of minutes I kicked myself, realizing what an amazing gift we had been given. We were in a space that EVERYONE was going to come to and where they would be sitting for extended periods of time. And lo and behold, the people who were sitting there eating corn dogs and mini-donuts and resting their feet were attentive and those in the front 3 or 4 rows generally stayed until we had a changeover in poets or sets. And I'll bet almost none of those people would have come and listened to us if we'd had a "poetry tent." At best, a few would have stood just inside the door for a minute or two and then moved on, but mostly we would have been reading for the same people who come to ALL the readings and/or for the friends we dragged out to see us. I'm trying to find some brave souls to stand outside the Metrodome and read poetry as a football game is letting out. I also have a friend doing a little temp work as a bell-ringer for the Salvation Army and when he complained that it was boring, I suggested that he start reading poetry while at his post. I hope he'll do it. Finally, I've been trying to put together an "art mob," based on the idea of a "flash mob" that would gather in different places around town on short notice and read poetry, dance, do a scene from a play, etc. Still trying to get it to take off, but I hope eventually it well. It's great when "non-poets" or "non-artists" trek out to see us, but I believe that we need to make ourselves more a part of everyone's daily life and part of public life rather than expecting them to come to us or lamenting as some people do (NOT finger pointing at this list, but thinking of other experiences) that no one ever reads poetry or comes to poetry events. -----Original Message----- From: Vernon Frazer [mailto:frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:13 PM Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Don't apologize, mIEKAL. I can't find any, either. Maybe I've met a few over the years, but I can't remember enough of them to open my hand and start counting on a finger. I don't know the why of it. Maybe it's because throughout their lives people are conditioned to consider poetry as difficult, inaccessible, etc. And a poetry reading does require more concentration than going to an art show or a club. The jazz world isn't all that different. Most of the people I know who like jazz have played an instrument at one time in their lives, even if they aren't "musicians." I don't have any answers, just observations. Vernon -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:01:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Re: innovative poetry journals (from a traditional editor) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Any journal with a sincere editor (who has even a halfway good ear) is innovative, I think. Innovation for innovation's sake makes me sad. Matt Henriksen www.typomag.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:48:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: english-language words for "snow" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ah...forgot 'yellow' with a side of poopy brown. AJ ;-) --- Alan Sondheim wrote: > english-language words for "snow" > > snow-jupiter pluvius, snow-thor, snow-zeus, > snow-abound, snow-accord, > snow-administer, snow-afford, agua, snow-allot, > snow-allow, snow-aqua, > snow-award, snow-bestow, snow-bestow on, snow-black > spot, bloom, snow- > blooping, snow-bristle with, snow-cascade, > snow-cataract, snow-cloudburst, > collapse, snow-come down, snow-communicate, > snow-confer, snow-crash, snow-crawl > with, creep with, snow-deal, snow-deal out, > snow-definition, snow-deluge, > snow-descend, snow-dip, snow-dip down, snow-dish > out, snow-dispense, snow-dole, > snow-dole out, snow-donate, snow-down, downpour, > snow-drinking water, > snow-drizzle, snow-drop, snow-drop down, snow-drop > off, drown, snow-drum, > snow-duck, snow-dunk, snow-eau, snow-extend, > snow-exuberate, snow-fall, > snow-fall down, snow-fall off, snow-flare, > snow-float, snow-flood, snow-flow, > snow-flow on, snow-fork out, fringe area, > snow-ghost, snow-gift, snow-gift > with, snow-give, snow-give freely, snow-give out, go > down, snow-go downhill, > snow-grant, snow-granulation, snow-gravitate, > snow-grid, ground water, > snow-gush, snow-hand out, snow-hard shadow, > snow-hard water, snow-head, > snow-heap, heavy water, snow-help to, snow-hydrol, > snow-hydrometeor, > snow-hydrosphere, snow-image, snow-impart, > snow-inundate, snow-issue, > snow-lavish, snow-let have, snow-limewater, > snow-lose altitude, snow-mete, > snow-mete out, snow-mineral water, snow-mizzle, > snow-multiple image, > snow-noise, snow-offer, snow-outpouring, > snow-overflow, snow-parachute, > snow-patter, snow-pelt, snow-picture, snow-picture > noise, snow-picture shifts, > snow-pitch, snow-pitter-patter, snow-plummet, > snow-plunge, snow-pounce, > snow-pour, snow-pour down, snow-pour on, snow-pour > with rain, snow-precipitate, > snow-precipitation, snow-present, snow-proffer, > proliferate, snow-rain > tadpoles, snow-rainfall, snow-rainstorm, > snow-rainwater, snow-render, rolling, > snow-run, snow-run over, snow-salt water, > snow-scanning pattern, scintillation, > snow-sea water, snow-serve, snow-shading, snow-shell > out, snow-shower, shower > down, snow-slip, snow-sluice, snow, snow-snowstorm, > snow-soft water, > snow-spatter, spit, snow-spring water, > snow-sprinkle, snow-squall, snow-steam, > snow-stoop, snow-stream, submerge, snow-swamp, > snow-swarm with, snow-swoop, > snow-tattoo, snow-teem, snow-teem with, tender, > snow-torrent, snow-trend > downward, snow-trickle, snow-volley, snow-vouchsafe, > snow-water, water vapor, > snow-weep, snow-well water, snow-wetting agent, > snow-wetting-out agent, > snow-whelm, snow-yield CAT, snow-London fog, > snow-London special, snow-addle, > snow-addle the wits, snow-aerospace, aerosphere, > snow-aftergrass, snow-air > hole, snow-air pocket, snow-airspace, amorphousness, > snow-ball up, snow-bamboo, > snow-be- cloud, snow-bedazzle, snow-bedim, > snow-befog, befuddle, > snow-befuddlement, snow-be- mist, snow-bewilder, > snow-bewilderment, snow-blur, > bother, snow- botheration, snow-bug, snow-bump, > snow-cane, snow-ceiling, > snow-cereal, cereal plant, snow-chaos, snow-clabber > up, snow-cloud, snow-cloud > over, snow-cloud up, snow-confuse, snow-confusion, > snow-corn, snow-crosswind, > snow-dark, snow-darken, snow-darken over, darkness, > snow-daze, snow-daz- zle, > snow-defocus, snow-deform, snow-dim, > snow-discombobulate, snow- > discombobulation, snow-discomfit, snow-discomfiture, > snow-discompose, > snow-discomposure, snow-disconcert, > snow-disconcertion, snow-disorder, > snow-disorganization, disorganize, snow-disorient, > snow-disorientation, > snow-distort, snow-distract, snow-disturb, > disturbance, snow-drisk, > snow-drizzling mist, snow-eclipse, snow-embarrass, > snow-embarrassment, > snow-empty space, snow-encloud, snow-enmist, > snow-entangle, farinaceous plant, > snow-favorable wind, snow-film, snow-flummox, > snow-flurry, snow-fluster, > flutter, snow-fog up, snow-fogginess, snow-forage > grass, snow-frenzy, > snow-front, snow-frost smoke, snow-fuddle, > snow-fuddlement, snow-fuss, > snow-fuzz, snow-fuzziness, snow-gauze, grain, > snow-graminaceous plant, > snow-grass, snow-haze, snow-head wind, > snow-high-pressure area, snow-hole, > snow-indeterminateness, snow-indistinctness, > snow-ionosphere, snow-jetstream, > snow-jumble, snow-lawn grass, snow-lose resolution, > low-pressure area, > snow-make uncertain, snow-maze, snow-mess, snow-mess > up, snow-mist, > snow-mistiness, snow-mix up, snow-moider, > snow-muddle, snow-muddlement, > snow-muddy, snow-mumbo jumbo, murk, snow-murkiness, > snow-mystification, > snow-mystify, snow-nubilate, snow-obfuscate, > snow-obfuscation, snow-obnubilate, > snow-obscurantism, snow-obscuration, snow-obscure, > snow-obscurity, > snow-opacity, snow-ornamental grass, snow-overcast, > snow-overcloud, > snow-overshadow, snow-oversmoke, snow-pale, snow-pea > soup, snow-pea-soup fog, > snow-peasouper, snow-perplex, snow-per- plexity, > snow-perturb, > snow-perturbation, snow-pocket, snow-pother, > snow-pucker, snow-put out, > snow-puzzle, snow-raise hell, snow-rattle, > snow-reed, snow-roughness, > snow-ruffle, snow-shade, snow-shadow, > snow-shapelessness, snow-shuffle, > snow-smog, snow-smoke, snow-soften, snow-soup, > space, snow-stew, > snow-stratosphere, snow-substratosphere, snow-sweat, > snow-swivet, tail wind, > snow-throw into confusion, snow-tizzy, > snow-tropopause, snow-troposphere, > snow-trough, snow-turbulence, snow-unclarity, > snow-unclearness, snow-unform, > snow-unplainness, unsettle, snow-unsettlement, > snow-unshape, snow-upset, > snow-vagueness, snow-vapor, snow-visibility, > snow-visibility zero > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:52:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: OFFLIST - Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Step --- Stephen Vincent wrote: > I think it's time to re-define audience. > I think who ever 'we is' get stuck in divisions > between 'populism' and > 'mandarinism'. > Somehow populism - as poetry - means dumbing it > down to just folks - or, > conversely, folks who are 'exceptional' and rise up > above their rank, and > the 'exceptionals' who somehow magically manage to > manufacture language that > reaches across to 'folks'. > Nathaniel Mackey goes 'up', and Garrison Keillor > (sp?) takes it 'down'. > The plot is really familiar. And off putting, too. > On top of which - given the available paradigms of > moving 'up' or 'down' - > it's kind of exhausting, and a lot of people just > give up on 'audience > development' as part of their curve, no matter what > be the original > intention. It seems like too much work to go out > there 'again and again' - > that is out there beyond our kith and kin fellow > poets, be us mandarin or > populist, academic or outside academia, etc. > That's the dark, dumb side of it all. Thinking one's > work don't mean much to > anybody and the Norton Canon is mainly a muzzle > rather than a source of > aspiration. Blah de blah. > In actuality I think it can be quite different. I > have always appreciated > Ron Silliman's ancient dictum (yes, Ron's been > making dictums for a long > time!) but the one I like, "audiences are built one > by one". Of course,he > was wanting to build audiences for Language Poetry > and he was or could be > merciless to a fault with his assertiveness and it > was to an audience of > primarily young poet initiates. (I can remember back > in the seventies a > therapist friend asking me, "What is Language > Poetry?" - she had received > two new clients (young poets) in one week who had > been totally thrown off > their bearings and looking for help!!)) > Lately I have been thinking that the luxury of > listening and taking poetry > seriously (at least outside the MFA and Creative > Writing major zones) is > partly a function of the economy and media. Most > people who orbit in the > current economy - as say my 26 year old daughter - > are velcro'd into 'the > fix' - it takes an enormous amount of will power and > self-discipline to > create a space/zone and/or go to a space to listen > to poems (let alone write > them). I won't elaborate on 'the fix', but I suspect > we can bet an Ipod, a > cell phone and cable/DVD and meTube on what the > competing factors are for > the young and dollar. Beat that at great risk! > And yet it happens. But I think its helpful to find > and develop zones where > it can happen and where it is not dependent on a > totally poet-centric > audience (tho that can be totally great on a > different sharpen your tools > level). > Just a small personal example. Lately I been doing > workshops with people who > are fifty and older with a wide variety of > educations, some, if any at all. > I don't hesitate to read Stein, Sappho, Niedecker, > Reznikoff, Langston > Hughes, etc., etc. And discuss. I always find it > sweetly wonderful how > people - most often with no back ground in poetry > are taken by words, almost > like a food. And they will argue, agree, and take > the poem's charge > sometimes way beyond itself into newly imagined > worlds. > Last week in a group in the Fillmore District in San > Francisco - once the > site of great jazz venues - I read an ancient > Chinese poem in a Rexroth > translation about loss (image: waning moon). I asked > for people to come up > with images for loss. Edward Dillard, an 85 year old > man, a tailor by trade > who still dresses in his pale blue custom made suit > and hat - think BeBop) > related the story of the close friendship of Charles > Mingus and Charles > Parker. "When Charles Parker died, you could hear it > in Mingus' > compositions for several years after." > As it also turned out, while in San Francisco, he > had made suits for them > both. > > Anyway, I suspect, my point is that if people have > space and conditions and > the permission to listen, poetry can still do its > work - and it's important > not to make assumptions about what x, y or z > audience requires to be pleased > (populist or mandarin, etc.) People can actually > like and/or be attracted to > stuff that is initially opaque and not immediately > understandable. That it > is possible (for the poet) to be educated by an > audience, as well as > participate in the education of an audience. It's > just that we might > discover those audiences in what might be considered > strange or unexpected > places. > > Once I asked an elderly woman what she thought of > the day's workshop. "It > sure beats looking at an empty wall," she said. > Inside, to keep a belief in > the poem, I think we have to assume - whether folks > are totally subsumed in > technology or not - many are looking at walls > (inside or outside themselves) > and words (poems) can continue to feed the hunger. > > At least, I would like to bet on that. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > > > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:43:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jenny Holzer did a text piece in Providence recently ("For RISD"). One of my students asked her baldly if she considered her texts poetry, and she said no, certainly not. She actually said that she hopes never to write again -- because she has excellent collaborators who are poets. Mairead ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Baldwin Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <457E5D8B02000014001C5C41@risd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What is a non-poet? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:21:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Fwd: {LEA: nmp}. LEAD: New Media Poetics and Poetry Chat Transcripts Available! Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.WVU.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:14:54 +0800 >From: "Nisar Keshvani, LEA" >To: 12@34.com >Subject: {LEA: nmp}. LEAD: New Media Poetics and Poetry Chat Transcripts > Available! > > >Please feel free to distribute this widely. > >-------- > >Dear Colleague: > >It is with great pleasure we announce the=20 >success of the the New Media Poetics and Poetry=20 >Discussion and Live Chat Forum. The Leonardo=20 >Electronic Almanac Discussion (LEAD) accompanies=20 >selected Special Issues. A live chat session=20 >with authors/artists and a moderated discussion=20 >list for readers to engage with authors. > >Access the Sandy Baldwin's overview and live=20 >chats with authors/artists at:=20 >http://leoalmanac.org/r= esources/lead/nmp/index.asp > >Moderator's Note >::=20 >Discussion,=20 >as in dispersion, setting free, and shaking >=20 >http://leoalmanac.or= g/resources/lead/nmp/cbaldwin.asp > by Sandy Baldwin > >LEAD Chat Transcripts >:: John Cayley >=20 >http://leoalmanac.org= /resources/lead/nmp/jcayley.asp > 9 Oct 2006 @ 1400hrs EST > >:: Loss Glazier >=20 > http://leoalmanac.= org/resources/lead/nmp/lglazier.asp > 10 Oct 2006 @ 1900hrs EST > >:: MEZ >=20 >http://leoalmanac.org/res= ources/lead/nmp/mez.asp > 17 Oct 2006 @ 0300hrs EST > >::=20 >=20 >Stephanie Strickland >=20 >http://leoalmanac= =2Eorg/resources/lead/nmp/sstrickland.asp > 20 Oct 2006 @ 1300hrs EST > >:: Manuel Portela >=20 >http://leoalmanac.or= g/resources/lead/nmp/mportela.asp > 23 Oct 2006 @ 1600hrs EST > >:: Jason Nelson >=20 > http://leoalmanac.o= rg/resources/lead/nmp/jnelson.asp > 24 Oct 2006 @ 1300hrs EST > >What is the LEA New Media Poetics Special? >Guest edited by Tim Peterson, the issue features=20 >Loss Peque=F1o Glazier, John Cayley with Dimitri=20 >Lemmerman, Lori Emerson, Phillippe Bootz, Manuel=20 >Portela, Stephanie Strickland, Mez, Maria=20 >Engberg and Matthias Hillner. Don't forget to=20 >scurry over to the equally exciting gallery,=20 >exhibiting works by Jason Nelson, Aya Karpinska,=20 >Daniel Canazon Howe, mIEKAL aND, CamillE BacoS,=20 >Nadine Hilbert and Gast Bouschet. > >View archives of the LEA New Media Poetics Discussion Forum: >http://groups.google.com/group/leanm= p > >About the moderator >Sandy Baldwin (Ph.D, New York University) is=20 >Assistant Professor of English and Director of=20 >the Center for Literary Computing at West=20 >Virginia University. > >warm rgds >nisar keshvani >editor in chief, >Leonardo Electronic Almanac: http://leoalmanac.org > >--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are=20 >subscribed to the Google Groups "New Media=20 >Poetry and Poetics: Leonardo Electronic Almanac"=20 >group. >To post to this group, send email to leanmp@googlegroups.com >To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >leanmp-unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >For more options, visit this group at=20 >http://groups.google.com/group/leanmp?hl=3Den >-~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:43:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <457E620902000051000122B5@WVUGW01.wvu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The rest of the world. On 12/12/06, Charles Baldwin wrote: > > What is a non-poet? > -- http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:53:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a good friend who started a local poetry reading group. She's never written a line in her life. Another friend who's a psychiatrist used to attend these meetings. She's a big poetry reader but doesn't write poems. Unfortunately the world is also populated with many non-poets who DO write (not necessarily) poetry. ----- Original Message ----- From: "EJOYCE" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:55 AM Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. Lisa On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: >>Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can tell, we >live such insulated lives. > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of English and Theatre Arts Edinboro University of Pennsylvania 500 Meadville Street Edinboro, PA 16444 (814)732-2448 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:58:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <005001c71dfd$570204f0$6400a8c0@Janus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- if it's a psychiatrist reading poetry -- i would question what is really going on there -- h On 12/12/06, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: > > I have a good friend who started a local poetry reading group. She's > never > written a line in her life. Another friend who's a psychiatrist used to > attend these meetings. She's a big poetry reader but doesn't write poems. > Unfortunately the world is also populated with many non-poets who DO write > (not necessarily) poetry. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "EJOYCE" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:55 AM > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > > > As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter > non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. > > Lisa > > On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > >>Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can tell, > we > >live such insulated lives. > > > > > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of English and Theatre Arts > Edinboro University of Pennsylvania > 500 Meadville Street > Edinboro, PA 16444 > (814)732-2448 > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:04:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612120658u3b09e961md940f85ab406700e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline figuring out which poets need which meds? I'd be more interested in psychologists reading poetry. On 12/12/06, heidi arnold wrote: > -- if it's a psychiatrist reading poetry -- i would question what is really > going on there > > -- > > h > > On 12/12/06, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: > > > > I have a good friend who started a local poetry reading group. She's > > never > > written a line in her life. Another friend who's a psychiatrist used to > > attend these meetings. She's a big poetry reader but doesn't write poems. > > Unfortunately the world is also populated with many non-poets who DO write > > (not necessarily) poetry. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "EJOYCE" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:55 AM > > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > > > > > > As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter > > non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. > > > > Lisa > > > > On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > > >>Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can tell, > > we > > >live such insulated lives. > > > > > > > > > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. > > Associate Professor > > Department of English and Theatre Arts > > Edinboro University of Pennsylvania > > 500 Meadville Street > > Edinboro, PA 16444 > > (814)732-2448 > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:28:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Yes! In-Reply-To: <2006121206555809209b43f8@webmail1.eup.edinboro.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lisa, I so agree! The boonies is the place to be! :-) The city has its =20 wonders too! My varying responses: At least in the US, we are currently encountering art and "the =20 creative" in so many more places than was considered "appropriate" in =20 the past. The non-artist/non-writer may not have as big an appetite =20 for poetry, or art in general, but does that mean they do not want it =20 at all?!?!!?! There are many who read poetry and never write it. I suppose whether =20 they WANT to write poetry is another matter, since the answer to that =20 can be very elusive, residing in one's noggin for a lifetime and never =20 being said (or done). Some might say every person has the potential to =20 be a poet, but are lacking in what feeds such talent. [I can't say I =20 even know if I agree with that or not.] Poetry is becoming more accessible all the time... I see poetry in the =20 mainstream music scene (alongside many non-poetic compositions, okay), =20 on the TV in commercials (the "bar" is being raised all the time for =20 the advertising industry -- when was the last time you heard one of =20 those dinky jingles of the early TV years), poetry events are =20 saturating the city scene, and all the time more volumes of poetry are =20 being released by publishers and writers alike. Possibly the everyday =20 person doesnt need poetry in book form because they are being =20 spoon-fed poetry in other forms? Let's not get into "what is and is not poetry", an endless debate, =20 unless you really want to... I have been there with friends and it is =20 not a pretty place... There are many types of POETRY, some more or =20 less well-crafted... still POETRY. [I personally appreciate MOST types =20 of poetry.] Respectfully submitted, T. F. Rice Quoting EJOYCE : > As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter =20 > non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. > > Lisa > > On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: >>> Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can tell, = we >> live such insulated lives. >> >> > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of English and Theatre Arts > Edinboro University of Pennsylvania > 500 Meadville Street > Edinboro, PA 16444 > (814)732-2448 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:57:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I must admit that after thirty years of publishing my writing and going to readings, I can think of very few people who have participated as long without calling themselves poets. There are several relatives of poets and close friends of poets who keep coming to the Poetry Project in New York. They are dedicated readers and supporters. There are also others who tried poetry, gave up writing it, but who still support it either financially or by coming to readings or both. However, the total of all these people whom I can think of but will not name out of concern for their privacy is less than half a dozen. mIEKAL aND wrote: Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:06:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mike Luster Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I'm one. I read poetry. I don't write it. mike J. Michael Luster, Ph.D. Arkansas Folklife Program Arkansas State University PO Box 102 Mammoth Spring, AR 72554 417-938-4633 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:10:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <20061212155748.37572.qmail@web31103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've known a few who are neither artists, poets' friends or relatives, nor academics. Emphasis on "few." -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas savage Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:58 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? I must admit that after thirty years of publishing my writing and going to readings, I can think of very few people who have participated as long without calling themselves poets. There are several relatives of poets and close friends of poets who keep coming to the Poetry Project in New York. They are dedicated readers and supporters. There are also others who tried poetry, gave up writing it, but who still support it either financially or by coming to readings or both. However, the total of all these people whom I can think of but will not name out of concern for their privacy is less than half a dozen. mIEKAL aND wrote: Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or discouraged. Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, ~mIEKAL who can't think of any in his circle... --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:51:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mIEKAL aND wrote: > Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows & > non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be > willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry > books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or > discouraged. > > Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, > > ~mIEKAL > > who can't think of any in his circle... I don't write or teach poetry; just read when I have the chance, which lately has been less often. When I lived in Seattle there'd be a range of attendees for the various reading series/venues similar to the one noted by Peter Quartermain, though I may be less sure that the painters, musicians etc who showed up at the smaller readings were actively reading a lot of poetry rather than being supportive of the endeavors of their friends. Here in Fort Worth, there've been very few other civilians at the readings I've been to. But I've also been to far fewer readings here, so I'm not sure how good an indicator this may be. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:22:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: do non-poets read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sometimes I think we poets are working in the most unloved art form. Since I put up pages for AvantRetro (poetry) and Whiskey Bucket Blues Review (music) on the same day two months ago, the two pages have had close to the same number of 'profile views'--number of people coming by--but on the poetry site the ratio of people listening to poems/profile views is very close to 1/1--on the music site there are 3000 listens for the 1000 profile views -- this means that on the poetry site people tend to listen to the one poem that automatically comes up when they visit but they're not real motivated to click on a 2nd poem and 3rd (these are poems that get excellent responses at readings) 2 things baffle me--that so many people even find the poetry site, but also that so few are motivated to listen to more of the poetry Another little observation is that the myspace music people who send us notes are inclined to be complimentary--'nice sound' 'love yr blues' I could say this is the norm among those who choose to send a note etc--whereas the typical note from a poet is more likely to say 'come to my reading' 'read my new poem' 'buy my book' These are just observations which are related, I think, to the question of whether non-poets read poetry Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:38:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <457EB3E4.8000900@eskimo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable has anyone taken into account "casual" or "indirect" contact with poetry, as for instance when a poem appears in a magazine alongside a prose article? I'm thinking of the New Yorker, which is the only "mainstream" mag I read, but I guess there must be others printing a mix of non-/fiction prose and poetry in one place. no way to track how many eyeballs are being caught by poetry published in the New Yorker et al., but that's certainly a way for non-poets to be exposed to some of the latest (albeit conservative, non-experimental (?)) poetry. what other national, general interest mags publish poetry on an every-issue basis?=20 maybe the larger question to ask is, how many people in the English-speaking world (or North America, or the U.S., or however you want to break it down) read poetry? how about somebody sponsors a survey to do a statistical analysis and establish a census of poetry readers at large?=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Herb Levy Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:52 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? mIEKAL aND wrote: > Just curious. It's pretty common to see non-artists go to artshows &=20 > non-musicians go to concerts but when it comes down to it, I'd be=20 > willing to bet most folks going to poetry readings & buying poetry=20 > books are a poet or writer, or people who want to be but are afraid or > discouraged. > > Apologies for being so simplistic-minded, > > ~mIEKAL > > who can't think of any in his circle... I don't write or teach poetry; just read when I have the chance, which=20 lately has been less often. When I lived in Seattle there'd be a range of attendees for the various=20 reading series/venues similar to the one noted by Peter Quartermain,=20 though I may be less sure that the painters, musicians etc who showed up at the smaller readings were actively reading a lot of poetry rather=20 than being supportive of the endeavors of their friends. Here in Fort Worth, there've been very few other civilians at the=20 readings I've been to. But I've also been to far fewer readings here, so I'm not sure how good an indicator this may be. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:41:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: do non-poets read poetry? In-Reply-To: <45707.65.79.22.226.1165940546.squirrel@www.poetrypoetry.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I think about this issue from time to time, and while I would say a good number of my friends and acquaintances read poetry without describing themselves as poets, I think there is a problem here. My girlfriend, to take a sort of random example, occasionally writes a little poem or something, and I quite like them, but she doesn't describe herself as a poet and takes her fiction writing much more seriously. And she does like and enjoy poetry, but I think it's possible the only living poets she reads are Alice Notley and me. And I think Alice Notley only because I bought her a copy of Descent of Allette as a present a while back and she really liked it. I think I've just about got her sold on Russell Edson, but we'll see. She is, by her own confession, a little intimidated by the contemporary poetry world and is I think content to sit back and wait for the tastemakers to make up their mind about whether a poet is worth reading before she's willing to put in the time to get familiar with a writer in the way that she has to be in order to really enjoy their work. I want to point out that she's not a casual fan of poetry, either, and can recite work by the likes of Eliot, Dickinson, and WCW from memory. That a reader like her isn't particularly interested in engaging with contemporary poetry is, I think, symptomatic of the larger problem. I can certainly understand where she's coming from. Contemporary poetry divides pretty easily into the large small poetry magazines and the small small poetry magazines. the large small magazines (poetry, the paris review, Fence and their ilk) are so inconsistent and generally bad that they hardly justify the cover price, particular in the paris review's case. with the small small magazines, the entire magazine itself is a bit of a crap shoot, and can either be very good or very bad. And often I'll find myself enjoying an issue of a small small magazine I picked up at a news stand and then I'll never see another issue again, not because it's ceased publication but because distribution is erratic. I'm not the type to buy a subscription, so that means I'm not going to read that magazine again if I never see it in the bookstores I haunt. It's very offputting to casual readership, and without casual readership it's very difficult to develop intense readership. Combine that with the fact that poetry education, at least in the united states, is generally confined to a couple of disconnected units sandwiched between novel studies in the 11th and 12th grades, and that often all that's taught are the romantics, and in my very unusual case from what I've heard, the metaphysical poets, there just aren't a lot of people who learn HOW to read poetry in school. On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Charlie Rossiter wrote: > Sometimes I think we poets are working in the most unloved art form. > > Since I put up pages for AvantRetro (poetry) and Whiskey Bucket Blues > Review (music) on the same day two months ago, the two pages have had > close to the same number of 'profile views'--number of people coming > by--but on the poetry site the ratio of people listening to poems/profile > views is very close to 1/1--on the music site there are 3000 listens for > the 1000 profile views -- this means that on the poetry site people tend > to listen to the one poem that automatically comes up when they visit but > they're not real motivated to click on a 2nd poem and 3rd (these are poems > that get excellent responses at readings) 2 things baffle me--that so many > people even find the poetry site, but also that so few are motivated to > listen to more of the poetry > > Another little observation is that the myspace music people who send us > notes are inclined to be complimentary--'nice sound' 'love yr blues' I > could say this is the norm among those who choose to send a note > etc--whereas the typical note from a poet is more likely to say 'come to > my reading' 'read my new poem' 'buy my book' > > These are just observations which are related, I think, to the question of > whether non-poets read poetry > > Charlie > > -- > "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." > Charlie said that. > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: english-language words for "snow" In-Reply-To: <20061212114804.20073.qmail@web54610.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cocaine. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <457E5D8B02000014001C5C41@risd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed This has pretty much been her stance; I think it's a fairly correct one. Her work operates within specific locations, plays off the corpus of language in a way reminiscent of language art (even ties in to Lawrence Weiner for example), etc. It might have a poetics but I've never thought of it as poetry. (In a sense everything is poetry, but it seems to make sense to think about framing as well.) I love her work btw - some of her installations and her Times Square pieces for example were absolutely amazing. - Alan On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Jenny Holzer did a text piece in Providence recently ("For RISD"). One > of my students asked her baldly if she considered her texts poetry, and > she said no, certainly not. She actually said that she hopes never to > write again -- because she has excellent collaborators who are poets. > > Mairead > > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Applegate Subject: *NEW* from Bad Noise: BONGOZOZO preview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What: Bad Noise Productions' BONGOZOZO e-book preview@www.badnoiseproductions.com BONGOZOZO will follow in the footsteps of our previous production GRAMMAR CRISIS, this time in full color. Today's preview features psychedelic howling, ghetto memorial crisis, industrial wasteland, black magic kawaii, analogue effects, heroin, sweetbreads, cassettes, prayer books, synthesizers, heavenly favelas and etc. Why: I found out a colleague of mine had been distributing his own pirate version of BONGOZOZO sample spreads and decided to turn the tables on him by releasing his unauthorized version as an official preview. Enjoy! & look for the complete version of BONGOZOZO during the first quarter of 2007. With love, David Applegatedavid@badnoiseproductions.comwww.badnoiseproductions.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:33:01 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <005401c71dcb$ea569d60$68e79e04@D48XR971> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT there's a man who sits outside whole foods in berkeley with a typewriter and writes a spontaneous poem for anyone who asks for one while they're shopping. you pay him a donation when you come out, and he hands you a scruffy little piece of paper with a (not good) poem on it on the theme of your choice. gabe gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:36:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <750c78460612120704p67a1e46u43bda37d1c9b2ace@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dan, -- there are meds, and there are, well, _meds_ -- and sanity be damned -- -- if you want to hear a psychiatrist at their *least coherent, ask them to explain a good poem -- how does that differ from psychologists? regards, heidi On 12/12/06, Dan Coffey wrote: > > figuring out which poets need which meds? I'd be more interested in > psychologists reading poetry. > > > On 12/12/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > -- if it's a psychiatrist reading poetry -- i would question what is > really > > going on there > > > > -- > > > > h > > > > On 12/12/06, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: > > > > > > I have a good friend who started a local poetry reading group. She's > > > never > > > written a line in her life. Another friend who's a psychiatrist used > to > > > attend these meetings. She's a big poetry reader but doesn't write > poems. > > > Unfortunately the world is also populated with many non-poets who DO > write > > > (not necessarily) poetry. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "EJOYCE" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:55 AM > > > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > > > > > > > > > As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter > > > non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. > > > > > > Lisa > > > > > > On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > > > >>Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can > tell, > > > we > > > >live such insulated lives. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of English and Theatre Arts > > > Edinboro University of Pennsylvania > > > 500 Meadville Street > > > Edinboro, PA 16444 > > > (814)732-2448 > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > http://hyperhypo.org/blog > http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:38:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <457E620902000051000122B5@WVUGW01.wvu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 12-Dec-06, at 5:02 AM, Charles Baldwin wrote: > What is a non-poet? That would be a person who does not write poetry. > > G. Harry Bowering Has never voted Liberal or Conservative. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:48:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0612120643j5b1e0499t8b77c07da3ef7081@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thank you Angela for a very direct and clear answer! (my comments are below the following: >From: angela vasquez-giroux >The rest of the world. > >On 12/12/06, Charles Baldwin wrote: >> >>What is a non-poet? I've known a great many non-poets over the years who read poetry, in several countries. In the United States a great many people I have known who read poetry and never evinced the slightest interest in writing any--read it often as a kind of spiritual/intellectual sustenance. The favorite writers by far were Whitman and Dickinson, who are understood as mystical, visionary and despite being "canonical" figures, viewed very much as outsider types, non-conformists in life and writing, willing to take on anything on their own and having something of insight to share with fellow spirits. Bukowski and the Beats also very popular with lot of non-poetry writing people, though not to same extent as Whitman and Dicksinson. Lot more people think they can be Buk or a Beat than they do Walt or Emily after all, in terms of writing or life. Among non-poets who are artitss and musicians i've known most popular poet is Rimbaud, along with often Baudelaire and Lautreamont. A painter friend the other night told me he has just bought the latest translations of Rimbaud--that there continue to be new ones attests to his popularity. My friend has now read al the english translations and several of the bios in english. Baudelaire and a few other French poets he likes. Said a friend still in school told him abut Language poetry assigned and he tried reading some but to him seemed "like the bleating of sheep in a flock, fenced off from the world." (This guy is 27. Very good painter, too.) For over twenty years I don't know how many rock/punk/hard core musicians and some jazz that have met Rimbaud is the favorite. Patti Smith may have something to do with it through time, as has long promoted his work. She also wrote the Intro for the recent second edition of Sixties classic ed. by Angel Flores, An Anthology of French Poetry from Nerval to Valery. The appeal is both the work and the life and what Olson calls the "stance towards reality". The poetry doesn't make the readers change their minds and become poets--it's part of strengthening their commitment to their own art to read the works and learn of the lives. At a reading by Clayton Eshleman a few nights ago at Woodland Pattern of poetry of Vallejo, a Peruvian Spanish Professor from UW-Milwaukee was present to read the poetry in Vallejo's native Peruvian Spanish pronunciations--and was asked if Vallejo read much in Peru. He responded that Vallejo is memorized from very early ages by school children in Peru, as the national poet. I asked the same gentleman last night at a talk by Eshleman on cave paintings if the poetry of Oquendo y Amat is much known in Peru. He said yes it is very popular, both the poetry and story of his very strange life. (There are cults in Peru who make literal, except multiplied many times, his book "5 Metros de poesia"--digging and carving it into the sides of mountians.) In many countries I lived in, poetry is part of the mandatory national curriculum, as an important part of the culture, to be memorized, studied, known about. (Or as a French friend said, amazed at my fanaticism for French poetry--"that's all stuff we get made to learn in school, exam questions. I want to read weirdos of other countries--like you do.") I read poetry for decades without it ever occuring to me to even try to write a poem. What mattered was the effect the poets and their poetry had on one's life, way of being in the world, seeing and hearing things, finding things hidden in plain sight that are like the secrets you aren't supposed to know--or exacerbate the ones you do-- That's been my experience--a great deal of people read poetry who don't think about writing it--and some do go from time to time to a poetry reading--and some don't--the atmosphere of them can turn some people off. Their reading of poetry though plays a big part in their inner lives, in trying to find other/more/better ways for themselves to exist in the world. >> > > > >-- >http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Fire Sale - Final Report In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We had about 70 submissions over the weekend. Thanks to all who saent work, and again, sorry for any confusion. The phrase "backchannel reply" probably would have cleared it all up. In any event, all decisions have been made and all notifications have gone out yea or nay. The issue will go to press next week. Ian Wilson 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:27:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612121236qea2bf29w2e1cbaa1af5376c6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline My experience with psychiatrists is that they're very surface-oriented and want to get you out of the office w/pills in hand asap. Psychologists want to explore the mental issues that are casuing the patient distress. Applying those different approaches to reading poetry - well, I'd be more interested in the psychologist's take. On 12/12/06, heidi arnold wrote: > Dan, > > -- there are meds, and there are, well, _meds_ -- and sanity be damned -- > > -- if you want to hear a psychiatrist at their *least coherent, ask them to > explain a good poem > > -- how does that differ from psychologists? > > regards, > > heidi > > On 12/12/06, Dan Coffey wrote: > > > > figuring out which poets need which meds? I'd be more interested in > > psychologists reading poetry. > > > > > > On 12/12/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > > -- if it's a psychiatrist reading poetry -- i would question what is > > really > > > going on there > > > > > > -- > > > > > > h > > > > > > On 12/12/06, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: > > > > > > > > I have a good friend who started a local poetry reading group. She's > > > > never > > > > written a line in her life. Another friend who's a psychiatrist used > > to > > > > attend these meetings. She's a big poetry reader but doesn't write > > poems. > > > > Unfortunately the world is also populated with many non-poets who DO > > write > > > > (not necessarily) poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "EJOYCE" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:55 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who lives in the "boonies" I can confirm that I encounter > > > > non-poets who read poetry surprisingly often. > > > > > > > > Lisa > > > > > > > > On Monday, December 11, 2006 10:13 PM, Peter Quartermain wrote: > > > > >>Out in the boonies, or wherever, things may be different. Who can > > tell, > > > > we > > > > >live such insulated lives. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elisabeth Joyce, Ph.D. > > > > Associate Professor > > > > Department of English and Theatre Arts > > > > Edinboro University of Pennsylvania > > > > 500 Meadville Street > > > > Edinboro, PA 16444 > > > > (814)732-2448 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.heidiarnold.org > > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://hyperhypo.org/blog > > http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:46:25 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, but that's what they all say, the language art people, Larry Weiner included. They don't think of what they do as poetry because their idea of poetry is so narrow and not at all informed by a knowledge of best contemporary practice. Holzer's confession that she has poet collaborators explains to me why I'm been less and less impressed by her texts. Wystan=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 5:53 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? This has pretty much been her stance; I think it's a fairly correct one. Her work operates within specific locations, plays off the corpus of=20 language in a way reminiscent of language art (even ties in to Lawrence=20 Weiner for example), etc. It might have a poetics but I've never thought of it as poetry. (In a sense everything is poetry, but it seems to make=20 sense to think about framing as well.) I love her work btw - some of her installations and her Times Square=20 pieces for example were absolutely amazing. - Alan On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Jenny Holzer did a text piece in Providence recently ("For RISD"). One > of my students asked her baldly if she considered her texts poetry,=20 > and she said no, certainly not. She actually said that she hopes=20 > never to write again -- because she has excellent collaborators who=20 > are poets. > > Mairead > > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:55:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Baldwin Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <07a1052a432dfb9780343cfc8c3d08fa@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks, I see. Sometimes I write poetry and sometimes I do not. Sometimes I read it when I'm not writing it. >>> George Bowering 12/12/06 3:38 PM >>> On 12-Dec-06, at 5:02 AM, Charles Baldwin wrote: > What is a non-poet? That would be a person who does not write poetry. > > G. Harry Bowering Has never voted Liberal or Conservative. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: Fire Sale - Final Report In-Reply-To: <8C8EC4BCCE478FA-13A8-1E4B@WEBMAIL-MC19.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline alright, i am relatively new to the list--but can someone please tell me what "backchannel" means? "learning something new everyday", angela On 12/12/06, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > > We had about 70 submissions over the weekend. Thanks to all who saent > work, and again, sorry for any confusion. The phrase "backchannel reply" > probably would have cleared it all up. In any event, all decisions have > been made and all notifications have gone out yea or nay. The issue will go > to press next week. > > Ian Wilson > 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > -- http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:07:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: Fire Sale - Final Report In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0612121546i6398275r81e3fa72b4b31ee4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To send to an individual e-mail address rather than the list at large. PP ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:57:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Subject: When First Looking Into Bay Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Posted at: http://readingbaypoetics.blogspot.com/ When First Looking Into Bay Poetics: San Francisco Responds Stephanie Young assembles a diverse crew. She "asked friends" and friends of friends. Terrific. I'm certain many a happy gang bang and orgy executed to the enjoyment of all participants slowly came to in just such fashion. Why not? There's a certain pleasure coming up against the unexpected in such a situation. How did that get here, and whose is it? For myself there certainly is enough work by friends, mentors, and would-be crushes presented in this anthology that I would seriously entertain the thought of attending such a bash. Ever the purist, I read poetry for poetry's sake. I adore the gossip and all (Sadly it's lacking here. I'd really like to know just who is fucking who, or has. Which women prefer women, which men prefer men. To leave it out of the work and distant is such a bore. The only gossip available is gossip about the thing itself. How Williams is that.), but the durability of the work arises from what is on the page alone. I object on general principle to shoddiness. I don't care whether it comes from Kathleen Fraser erecting her half-corpse of influence to thrust out shoddy imitative Susan Howe or a fellow like Stroffolino bemoaning his lack of "influence" in the poetry/rock/acoustic/radio (which is it Chris?) world taking up space in a text of supposed Poetics. It's a sacred act for some of us. For others it appears a smudged half-shot for stardom and glory among the living dead of blogs and cyberspace. Bay Poetics thankfully does however have some surprises: James Meetze, that Whitmanesque failure; Alli Warren, those shifts of line; Tanya Brolanski, someone who actually cares; Cynthia Sailers, finally convincing blocks of verse; Brydie McPherson, somebody read their Oppen; Elizabeth Treadwell, I never knew!; Yuri Hospodar, fun and true, if a bit lite. & of course there are the Disappointments, why even mention: Hillman, Scalapino, Palmer, Cross, Cox, Cole, Koeneke, Nealon, Smith, Tuntha-abas, Kaipa, etc. Here because of time put in or friendships clung to, who knows or cares. & blessedly there are the Solids: Kyger (without doubt up in Bolinas wondering what the hell these people find in her work and how she got tangled up in their company), Ratcliffe, Berkson, Killian, Joron (thank god for his essay, a piece of thoughtful prose that is of actual use), Spahr, Robinson, Murray, Gluck, Ballard, Sigo, and Mackey. Does this sum anything up? No, of course not. The reader will find her own highs and lows. This list is but the one meant for the city and its lovers. The bay is theirs alone. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:50:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Baiotto Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Holzer's concern is not texts or their quality [as poetry]...but texts as decor, as consumable, etc. Her ironic relationship to sincerity is what is at stake. The ironic relationship of texts in the environement to sincerity or intent. Et al. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Wystan Curnow Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 5:46 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Yes, but that's what they all say, the language art people, Larry Weiner included. They don't think of what they do as poetry because their idea of poetry is so narrow and not at all informed by a knowledge of best contemporary practice. Holzer's confession that she has poet collaborators explains to me why I'm been less and less impressed by her texts. Wystan -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 5:53 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? This has pretty much been her stance; I think it's a fairly correct one. Her work operates within specific locations, plays off the corpus of language in a way reminiscent of language art (even ties in to Lawrence Weiner for example), etc. It might have a poetics but I've never thought of it as poetry. (In a sense everything is poetry, but it seems to make sense to think about framing as well.) I love her work btw - some of her installations and her Times Square pieces for example were absolutely amazing. - Alan On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Jenny Holzer did a text piece in Providence recently ("For RISD"). One > of my students asked her baldly if she considered her texts poetry, > and she said no, certainly not. She actually said that she hopes > never to write again -- because she has excellent collaborators who > are poets. > > Mairead > > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:56:05 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: A<003f01c71e59$0a82dee0$0200a8c0@msb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed (I think) it's her sincerity that bothers me, it's too often = 'poetic' in the worst sense, and it corrupts the irony you refer to.=20 Is the absence of sincerity what's wrong with the public sphere? As to = what her works are 'concerned with'--that fact that they are 'd=E9cor' = doesn't mean they're not poetry, we're all producing 'd=E9cor', all our = text acquire meaning in a context be they in books or on = billboards--she doesn't get off the hook that way. Wystan=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Matthew Baiotto Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 2:50 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Holzer's concern is not texts or their quality [as poetry]...but texts = as decor, as consumable, etc. Her ironic relationship to sincerity is = what is at stake. The ironic relationship of texts in the environement = to sincerity or intent. Et al. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Wystan Curnow Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 5:46 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Yes, but that's what they all say, the language art people, Larry Weiner = included. They don't think of what they do as poetry because their idea = of poetry is so narrow and not at all informed by a knowledge of best = contemporary practice. Holzer's confession that she has poet = collaborators explains to me why I'm been less and less impressed by her = texts. Wystan=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 5:53 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? This has pretty much been her stance; I think it's a fairly correct one. Her work operates within specific locations, plays off the corpus of=20 language in a way reminiscent of language art (even ties in to Lawrence=20 Weiner for example), etc. It might have a poetics but I've never thought of it as poetry. (In a sense everything is poetry, but it seems to make=20 sense to think about framing as well.) I love her work btw - some of her installations and her Times Square=20 pieces for example were absolutely amazing. - Alan On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Jenny Holzer did a text piece in Providence recently ("For RISD"). One > of my students asked her baldly if she considered her texts poetry, > and she said no, certainly not. She actually said that she hopes=20 > never to write again -- because she has excellent collaborators who=20 > are poets. > > Mairead > > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as = well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: = sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and = other work, check the WVU Zwiki and = http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check "Alan Sondheim" = on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, = cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Baiotto Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I was writing I was thinking of Holzer's plaques, which would exist = in public without an author, like billboards, swimming pool rules, or = graffiti (though most is signed). I think what's inherent in texts is they live = on, sort of like radiation, and can be picked up and infect the reader = [perhaps this is the sense of decor you refer to -- being ambient]. This is the stuff of horror films and multimedia art. Thinking of public texts or signage as harmful or frustrated, confusing, authoritarian. I think = this is what Holzer's art is about though I don't think I'm nailing it down -- = and it has implications for writers. =20 (Multimedia) artists have an interesting relationship to text. I know = you get this already, but I wanted to say that there's no difference, to = them, between a urinal or a poem, as material. I once read Paul McCarthy say = he had thought of Sylvia Plath as a metaphor, and in one of his videos = someone sticks their head in an oven (she's not a text but you feel me). So, it doesn't matter if the text is good or bad, since the form, rather than = the content (as meaningful), is at stake; though the text does have to = function in a certain way, or be a certain kind of thing (i.e. a provocative announcement). Take Mike Kelley's writings. One of his 'poems' begins, "Ladybird Johnson, on Arbor Day | Commanding plant a tree or bush to = stay | The stunning spread of US decay...", etc. They're pretty good to read, = but they're just material, a component, of something more complex. Kelley = is a better writer than Holzer, I think, which explains why his work is = awesome and she wants to hire poets (?). Most texts used as material in art, I notice, are pretty simple or simplistic, and suggestive rather than = precise in meaning. Often tedious as well! Hence Holzer, and a weakness in her work, based as it is primarily on evocative texts that are not wonderful = as poetry or even thought. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Wystan Curnow Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:56 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Agreed (I think) it's her sincerity that bothers me, it's too often 'poetic' in the worst sense, and it corrupts the irony you refer to.=20 Is the absence of sincerity what's wrong with the public sphere? As to = what her works are 'concerned with'--that fact that they are 'd=E9cor' = doesn't mean they're not poetry, we're all producing 'd=E9cor', all our text acquire meaning in a context be they in books or on billboards--she doesn't get = off the hook that way. Wystan=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Matthew Baiotto Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 2:50 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Holzer's concern is not texts or their quality [as poetry]...but texts = as decor, as consumable, etc. Her ironic relationship to sincerity is what = is at stake. The ironic relationship of texts in the environement to = sincerity or intent. Et al. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Wystan Curnow Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 5:46 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? Yes, but that's what they all say, the language art people, Larry Weiner included. They don't think of what they do as poetry because their idea = of poetry is so narrow and not at all informed by a knowledge of best contemporary practice. Holzer's confession that she has poet = collaborators explains to me why I'm been less and less impressed by her texts. Wystan=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alan Sondheim Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2006 5:53 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? This has pretty much been her stance; I think it's a fairly correct one. Her work operates within specific locations, plays off the corpus of=20 language in a way reminiscent of language art (even ties in to Lawrence=20 Weiner for example), etc. It might have a poetics but I've never thought of it as poetry. (In a sense everything is poetry, but it seems to make=20 sense to think about framing as well.) I love her work btw - some of her installations and her Times Square=20 pieces for example were absolutely amazing. - Alan On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Mairead Byrne wrote: > Jenny Holzer did a text piece in Providence recently ("For RISD"). One > of my students asked her baldly if she considered her texts poetry, > and she said no, certainly not. She actually said that she hopes=20 > never to write again -- because she has excellent collaborators who=20 > are poets. > > Mairead > > Check Work on YouTube. Check out blog http://nikuko.blogspot.com as = well. Work directory at http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. Check "Alan Sondheim" on Google. For theoretical and other work, check = the WVU Zwiki and http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim . Check = "Alan Sondheim" on Google. Phone 718-813-3285. Write for information on books, dvds, cds, performance, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:58:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: When First Looking Into Radio Orphan In-Reply-To: <5fabddd10612121757q81c1319j116c0835ee82578e@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Patrick--- Luckily, it's not my responsibility to defend that book, or its title, or even why the editor chose this particular piece of mine (rather than the kind of writing called a poem, or writing perhaps more relevant to the field of poetics), but since you asked me a personal question about my piece in there, which apparently you didn't like, I guess it is sort of my responsibility to write something about it. Not exactly a defense, and I certainly don't expect it to make you like it, but just a little context. When the editor came over to my house (I was wheelchair immobile) to take some writing, what I was most excited by in that particular moment was the memoir I was working on, so I tried to find an excerpt that could kind of sort of stand on its own in a poetry-related venue. I was excited about this kind of writing because 1) I had never been a memory-based writer (funny how a near death experience can change that) or 2) had never really gone that far into a kind of prose that didn't utilize (and even rely) on a more "poetics" or "academic" specialized jargon, or that wasn't often 'overanalytical'; I was experimenting in so-called "non-experimental" writing out of some kind of (deathbed) feeling of urgent necessity. I never really got into a lot of so- called 'quotidian' narrative-like poetry (of what used to be called the APR/Iowa School sort before Jorie Graham and Bernstein etc formed some kind of alliance, etc), and still have a hard time warming up to it, but the prose form seemed less compromised (in a "temporary absolute" sense). I now felt I could put the thing, the illusion of the narrative self moving through time, out there, as a thing, and worry about analyzing it, later. To me (if not to you, fine), there was something strangely liberating in this, if not necessarily an appeal to common humanity at least starting from a place of trying to remember what I was like when 18 years old, and trying to look at subsequent years of my life from that perspective, for better or worse, or just different (which at the time HAD TO be better....). Oh, sure, I could also say that if I had really thought about it at the time, I would've considered that maybe my decision to publish that piece (or at least give it to the editor, who could've said no, and did, in fact, ask for some changes..) was a "nose thumbing" gesture on my part, born out of a frustration to what I was feeling as an overcommitment of my energies to the quasi-social subculture that takes the idea of "poetry" (or more specifically of "being a poet") as central to its being in the world. Or, as you put it, a bemoaning. And at least a bemoaning is potentially more affirmative than a "nose thumbing" gesture.... To bemoan a lack of influence, if that's indeed what I'm doing (and that's the feeling you get from the piece, then you're right and I can't argue with that with any authority), may be shoddy, or may even be paradoxical (hypocritical), and certainly many poems transcend, ignore, sublimate or self-censor such 'base' thoughts or feelings. I've certainly done it....ALOT. But luckily there has been alot of "legitimate" (even canonical) poetry that has celebrated the wide gamut of bemoaning....So to say it has no place, well, you're entitled to your opinion.... As for your question, the best answer would probably be the book from which it is an excerpt. Not to cop-out on you, but yes the excerpt in Young's book does end with the gesture of lament and bemoaning---but that substance of that bemoaning is also a perception, a realization, that it was time for a change (and so this excerpt is not as "self- contained" as a poem may seem to be, because it's trying to whet the appetite for the next chapter, which isn't included)-but also a question, cold and analytical even, just what is the role of "mass culture" in identity formation, and what implications does it have for individuals, economic classes, or conceptions of labor in what's often referred to, sometimes dubiously, as 'consumer society' Apparently some people can simply change their lifestyle and/or 'mindset' (and the relationship between the two) as easily and quickly as Cher changes costumes, but some other people need to wrestle with it, verbalize it, write about it, and some other people like reading about it (or memoirs and self-help books and such wouldn't exist in such glut), and yeah maybe it's not my ultimate genre-forte, and yeah maybe I made the mistake of placing it in the wrong venue, like trying to push the envelope in terms of what's permitted, but not primarily BECAUSE of some art-history mandate, though it may have to be justified, and it can be okay to play that game sometimes (though I also bemoan all the S**t Alice Notley got when Mysteries of Small Houses came out)---and if hey the self- proclaimed poet-people didn't want to come with me into this, I can be cool with that (though, yeah, the "self-discovery through self- criticism" bag was part of what got me into poetry; as was the "if you point the finger at someone else, you got 4 more pointing back at you" trip...). To her credit, Stephanie Young did. But whatever---I can see where it's as out of place as I've been feeling more often than not in primarily poet gatherings for years, and yeah perhaps I spent too much time "bemoaning" that rather than just up and making a clean break and reinventing myself and finding a new possibility of community or like-minded people----But I think it's doing something else too, speaking to other people, or at least realizing that writing to other people (who may have no or little knowledge or interest in the way poets talk or write to each other) really involves no more social compromise than speaking or writing, to poets, about, or 'in the form of,' what's called poetry does. "grace to live as variously as possible," etc.... Is that a poetics? Is it something to keep at bay? I have my silly social illusions and hopes too, and am fragile as anybody, but I still want to reach out, and love, be loved, still believe in 'each according to their abilities; each according to their needs" and "by whatever means necessary" and that there can be mutually transforming intensities that one build deep trust on, and go beyond fatalism of the business-as-usual approach, and I'm willing to stake what's 'left' of my life on it, and that one's first baby-steps at 'bemoaning' can be socially pro- active (especially in a social world that has offered one a kind of 'conditional love' as long as one keeps writing like one used to a decade earlier, and it that's the case, I have to either try to change some people's minds about that, or look elsewhere.... and, I guess that elsewhere can be here, or flarf or something...) maybe....yes... Chris On Dec 12, 2006, at 5:57 PM, patrick dunagan wrote: > Posted at: http://readingbaypoetics.blogspot.com/ > > When First Looking Into Bay Poetics: San Francisco Responds > > > Stephanie Young assembles a diverse crew. She "asked friends" and > friends of friends. Terrific. I'm certain many a happy gang bang and > orgy executed to the enjoyment of all participants slowly came to in > just such fashion. Why not? There's a certain pleasure coming up > against the unexpected in such a situation. How did that get here, and > whose is it? For myself there certainly is enough work by friends, > mentors, and would-be crushes presented in this anthology that I would > seriously entertain the thought of attending such a bash. > > Ever the purist, I read poetry for poetry's sake. I adore the gossip > and all (Sadly it's lacking here. I'd really like to know just who is > fucking who, or has. Which women prefer women, which men prefer men. > To leave it out of the work and distant is such a bore. The only > gossip available is gossip about the thing itself. How Williams is > that.), but the durability of the work arises from what is on the page > alone. I object on general principle to shoddiness. I don't care > whether it comes from Kathleen Fraser erecting her half-corpse of > influence to thrust out shoddy imitative Susan Howe or a fellow like > Stroffolino bemoaning his lack of "influence" in the > poetry/rock/acoustic/radio (which is it Chris?) world taking up space > in a text of supposed Poetics. It's a sacred act for some of us. For > others it appears a smudged half-shot for stardom and glory among the > living dead of blogs and cyberspace. > > Bay Poetics thankfully does however have some surprises: James > Meetze, that Whitmanesque failure; Alli Warren, those shifts of line; > Tanya Brolanski, someone who actually cares; Cynthia Sailers, finally > convincing blocks of verse; Brydie McPherson, somebody read their > Oppen; Elizabeth Treadwell, I never knew!; Yuri Hospodar, fun and > true, if a bit lite. & of course there are the Disappointments, why > even mention: Hillman, Scalapino, Palmer, Cross, Cox, Cole, Koeneke, > Nealon, Smith, Tuntha-abas, Kaipa, etc. Here because of time put in or > friendships clung to, who knows or cares. & blessedly there are the > Solids: Kyger (without doubt up in Bolinas wondering what the hell > these people find in her work and how she got tangled up in their > company), Ratcliffe, Berkson, Killian, Joron (thank god for his essay, > a piece of thoughtful prose that is of actual use), Spahr, Robinson, > Murray, Gluck, Ballard, Sigo, and Mackey. > > Does this sum anything up? No, of course not. The reader will find her > own highs and lows. This list is but the one meant for the city and > its lovers. The bay is theirs alone. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 02:25:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <000301c71e76$89cbaf70$0200a8c0@msb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Matthew Baiotto wrote: > When I was writing I was thinking of Holzer's plaques, which would exist in > public without an author, like billboards, swimming pool rules, or graffiti > (though most is signed). I think what's inherent in texts is they live on, > sort of like radiation, and can be picked up and infect the reader [perhaps > this is the sense of decor you refer to -- being ambient]. This is the > stuff of horror films and multimedia art. Thinking of public texts or > signage as harmful or frustrated, confusing, authoritarian. I think this is > what Holzer's art is about though I don't think I'm nailing it down -- and > it has implications for writers. Holzer's texts problematize place - the semantics of place in relation to, co-invasive with, the aphoristic. Just as the aphoristic marks a punctum (in Barthes' sense of the word), so do the sites themselves. > > (Multimedia) artists have an interesting relationship to text. I know you > get this already, but I wanted to say that there's no difference, to them, > between a urinal or a poem, as material. I once read Paul McCarthy say he ??? Since I'm a multi-media artist, I feel I can reply; this is an overly broad generalization that doesn't hold among any of the people I know. > had thought of Sylvia Plath as a metaphor, and in one of his videos someone > sticks their head in an oven (she's not a text but you feel me). So, it > doesn't matter if the text is good or bad, since the form, rather than the > content (as meaningful), is at stake; though the text does have to function > in a certain way, or be a certain kind of thing (i.e. a provocative > announcement). Take Mike Kelley's writings. One of his 'poems' begins, > "Ladybird Johnson, on Arbor Day | Commanding plant a tree or bush to stay | > The stunning spread of US decay...", etc. They're pretty good to read, but > they're just material, a component, of something more complex. Kelley is a > better writer than Holzer, I think, which explains why his work is awesome > and she wants to hire poets (?). Most texts used as material in art, I > notice, are pretty simple or simplistic, and suggestive rather than precise > in meaning. Often tedious as well! Hence Holzer, and a weakness in her > work, based as it is primarily on evocative texts that are not wonderful as > poetry or even thought. Frankly, I think Holzer's one of the best 'writers' out there, but it's all a matter of opinion. I've found them not only wonderful, but breath- taking in their site-ing, sighting. But there's another angle to the question above - how many poets read the work of non-poets? I do multi-media performance obviously, and it's not writers that show up - it's musicians, dancers, filmmakers, videomakers, codeworkers, net people, artists, etc. etc. Poetry seems locked in an enclave of genre and canon, for better or worse. Even on Poetics, I rarely if ever see discussions of, say, mez, solipsis, noemata, Talan Memmott, Kenji Siratori, Sandy Baldwin, Marjorie Luesebrink, etc. These names have been around for a long time. There are poets of course who are interested in these people, but most of them (the poets) also seem problematic. I got tired of being told my work isn't "net art" or "epoetry" or "web art" or "interactive art" or "new media" or "multimedia" whatever. Most of this stuff comes from people who have a stake in definition - a greater stake I think than in writing or performance/writing themselves - this is true in particular for "epoetry" or "e-poetry" which is already at work at ins and outs and canonizations. In other words the problem for a lot of us isn't why aren't there more non-poets at poetry readings - but instead - what constitutes poetry? What constitutes a reading? etc. And at least in my experience which is admittedly probably fucked, the answers lie in such narrowly-defined categories that the field, if there is such, seems suffocating. - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:18:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Is it a problem that only a small proportion of poetry readers don't also write it? I don't think so. Poetry should make poets of its readers, so if there were a great number of readers who didn't try to write it, that would be a problem. "Only a thousand people ever saw the Velvet Underground, but all of them went on to start bands," someone said. Likewise I can hazard that only a thousand people ever read The Tennis Court Oath (or whatever), but all of them went on to write poems. That's what we should want. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:40:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: When First Looking Into Bay Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Patrick Dunagan's level of critique for Bay Poetics is problematic. His sex= ualization (and apparent fascination with the sexualities) of the Bay Area = poetic community represented immediately undermines his claim that he "read= [s] poetry for poetry=92s sake." David Harrison Horton unionherald.blogspot= .com > Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:57:33 -0800> From: pdunagan@GMAIL.COM> Subject:= When First Looking Into Bay Poetics> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > P= osted at: http://readingbaypoetics.blogspot.com/> > When First Looking Into= Bay Poetics: San Francisco Responds> > > Stephanie Young assembles a diver= se crew. She "asked friends" and> friends of friends. Terrific. I'm certain= many a happy gang bang and> orgy executed to the enjoyment of all particip= ants slowly came to in> just such fashion. Why not? There's a certain pleas= ure coming up> against the unexpected in such a situation. How did that get= here, and> whose is it? For myself there certainly is enough work by frien= ds,> mentors, and would-be crushes presented in this anthology that I would= > seriously entertain the thought of attending such a bash.> > Ever the pur= ist, I read poetry for poetry's sake. I adore the gossip> and all (Sadly it= 's lacking here. I'd really like to know just who is> fucking who, or has. = Which women prefer women, which men prefer men.> To leave it out of the wor= k and distant is such a bore. The only> gossip available is gossip about th= e thing itself. How Williams is> that.), but the durability of the work ari= ses from what is on the page> alone. I object on general principle to shodd= iness. I don't care> whether it comes from Kathleen Fraser erecting her hal= f-corpse of> influence to thrust out shoddy imitative Susan Howe or a fello= w like> Stroffolino bemoaning his lack of "influence" in the> poetry/rock/a= coustic/radio (which is it Chris?) world taking up space> in a text of supp= osed Poetics. It's a sacred act for some of us. For> others it appears a sm= udged half-shot for stardom and glory among the> living dead of blogs and c= yberspace.> > Bay Poetics thankfully does however have some surprises: Jame= s> Meetze, that Whitmanesque failure; Alli Warren, those shifts of line;> T= anya Brolanski, someone who actually cares; Cynthia Sailers, finally> convi= ncing blocks of verse; Brydie McPherson, somebody read their> Oppen; Elizab= eth Treadwell, I never knew!; Yuri Hospodar, fun and> true, if a bit lite. = & of course there are the Disappointments, why> even mention: Hillman, Scal= apino, Palmer, Cross, Cox, Cole, Koeneke,> Nealon, Smith, Tuntha-abas, Kaip= a, etc. Here because of time put in or> friendships clung to, who knows or = cares. & blessedly there are the> Solids: Kyger (without doubt up in Bolina= s wondering what the hell> these people find in her work and how she got ta= ngled up in their> company), Ratcliffe, Berkson, Killian, Joron (thank god = for his essay,> a piece of thoughtful prose that is of actual use), Spahr, = Robinson,> Murray, Gluck, Ballard, Sigo, and Mackey.> > Does this sum anyth= ing up? No, of course not. The reader will find her> own highs and lows. Th= is list is but the one meant for the city and> its lovers. The bay is their= s alone. _________________________________________________________________ Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=3D7adb59de-a857-45ba-81cc-= 685ee3e858fe= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 04:20:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: justin sirois Subject: kari edwards tribute this week on rock heals (MP3 of reading) In-Reply-To: <000301c71e76$89cbaf70$0200a8c0@msb> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit kari edwards tribute this week on rockheals.com full downloadable audio of kari’s March ’06 reading and poem by Michael Ball of the ie reading series. . . . . . . . http://www.narrowhouserecordings.com/ a record label primarily interested in contemporary writing, poetics and the political ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:54:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: JUST BUFFALO JOB OPENING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marketing and Publicity Coordinator Part-time (independent contractor)/12 hours per week =2410 Per hour The Marketing and Publicity Coordinator works with the Artistic Director an= d the Executive Director to coordinate and implement marketing and publicity need= s for Just Buffalo Literary Center. Responsibilities =E2=80=A2 Developing and maintaining a current list of media and publicity = contacts =E2=80=A2 Gathering and maintaining files of press materials to be used in = media releases =E2=80=A2 Writing and sending weekly and monthly press releases regarding a= ll Just Buffalo Events =E2=80=A2 Making weekly and monthly follow up calls to media list to ensure= receipt of materials and to lobby for inclusion =E2=80=A2 Regular drop-offs of mass mail at post office =E2=80=A2 Monthly delivery and hanging of Literary Buffalo posters to spons= ors, libraries and shops with window displays and community event bulletin boards Qualifications =E2=80=A2 Excellent written and communication skills =E2=80=A2 Computer literacy =E2=80=A2 Ability to meet deadlines =E2=80=A2 Flexible schedule =E2=80=A2 Car =E2=80=A2 Knowledge of contemporary poetry and/or fiction a plus Send resume and cover letter ASAP to Michael Kelleher at mjk=40justbuffalo.= org. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:39:44 -0500 Reply-To: iris.mayr@liwest.at Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Alan Sondheim Comments: Originally-From: iris mayr From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [syndicate] Prix Ars Electronica 2007 - Call for Entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------=_1166007243-1774-53" This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_1166007243-1774-53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Prix Ars Electronica 2007 - International Competition for Cyberarts The 21st Prix Ars Electronica will have a few new features. The new Hybrid Art category, a new prize for Media.Art.Research, and the integration of Net Vision into Digital Communities are the most visible signs of the intensive work that is being done on the definition of the competition’s categories. As always, the aim is to continually keep the Prix Ars Electronica updated in line with leading-edge developments in the dynamic field of cyberarts. Prix Ars Electronica 2007 Start of Online Submission : December 8, 2007 Online Submission Deadline: March 9, 2007 Computeranimation / Film / VFX, Digital Musics, Interactive Art, Hybrid Art, Digital Communities, u19 - freestyle competition, [the next idea] grant, Media.Art.Research Award All details about the categories and the online submission are available online only at: Total prize money: 122.500 Euro Please feel free to forward this to all interested parties. best regards Iris Iris Mayr Prix Ars Electronica AEC Ars Electronica Center Linz Museumsgesellschaft mbH Hauptstraße 2 A-4040 Linz Tel. ++43.732.7272-74 Fax ++43.732.7272-674 info@prixars.aec.at http://prixars.aec.at ------------=_1166007243-1774-53 Content-Type: text/plain; name="message-footer.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="message-footer.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Syndicate mailinglist----------------------- Syndicate network for media culture and media art information and archive: http://syndicate.anart.no to post to the Syndicate list: Shake the KKnut: http://syndicate.anart.no/KKnut/ no commercial use of the texts without permission ------------=_1166007243-1774-53-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:54:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: They have their mother in their pockets Comments: To: webartery , rhizome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The screen burns my eyes out, so now I can see the true nature of in-itself, which is Mary and the kids flutter at the edges of their world. They have their mother in their pockets, in Iraq, where hungry Americans eat history. All told, code is obsessive with maps, even when girls grow into and out of unbounded crags. In fact, the kids soak up any drop of pressure they can, and Mary just hates herself most of the time. Back of the mouth and through a rough void, the shellac hardens, and kids grow into and out of their world. Even if I'm blind, I still drown, just like you. Movies run backwards, movies we unfurled. The film on my eyes is where we're all trapped. *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| New Media Poetry and Poetics ||http://www.abstractoutlooks.com || Abstract Outlooks Media - A New Vision for A New Web Hosting, Design, Development ||http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org|| Xanax Pop - A Bloge of Poemes --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Third Factory, Five Years In Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Third Factory was begun in summer of 2001 and went live at the New Year 2002. First drafted in Netscape Composer (!), built in Dreamweaver 4 and 7. Using pMachine 2.4 for blogging features. Hosted from the start by Duration at http://www.durationpress.org/. A critic's notebook, mostly. But porous. *** New additions to the Third Factory archive include * DLB entry on Rosmarie Waldrop * Abandoned policy statement on adjectives in reviewing * Short essay on Kevin Davies (originally in PPN) * Furious Song: a review essay for the Norwegian journal Vagant, discussing the Berrigan Collected, Notley's Grave of Light, Waldrop's Curves to the Apple, Mackey's Splay Anthem, Creeley's On Earth, Willis's Meteoric Flowers, and the Bay Poetics anthology. http://www.thirdfactory.net/archive.html *** New additions to Lipstick of Noise (focusing on poetry soundfiles) include * Keith Waldrop reading "Carrion," from his new translation of Baudelaire's Flowers of Evil (exclusive) * Kimberly Lyons, "Fear of the Future" * Rod Smith, "Moist Feelings" * In praise of Joan La Barbara * Playlists, with links, of all seven installments of the radio show "Upper Limit Music" http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.html http://www.thirdfactory.net/lipstick.php feed://www.thirdfactory.net/index.xml *** Various squibs on film, music, poetry, the news, at http://www.thirdfactory.net/nb.html feed://www.thirdfactory.net/nb.xml *** Recommendations by many hands at Attention Span http://www.thirdfactory.net/attentionspan.html *** Links always kept fresh at http://www.thirdfactory.net/links.html *** Works received updated weekly http://www.thirdfactory.net/received2006.html *** Keep up with what's new on the site here http://www.thirdfactory.net/ensemble.html *** The home page is http://www.thirdfactory.net/ *** Thanks for visiting! Steve steve dot evans at thirdfactory dot net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:18:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The short answer is, "Yes, plenty of em." But I also think the premise of the question is false. It's the sort of question poets use to beat themselves up. Oh, we're so inconsequential! No one reads our work but us! The truth is that the majority of poetry readers have ALWAYS been poetry writers. Wouldn't almost anyone who loved reading poetry take a shot at writing a few poems themselves? The difference is that now anyone who tries their hand at a bunch of poems is encouraged to think of themselves as a "professional" poet, even if they have some other full-time job, even if no one reads their work outside a very small circle who hold in common a tightly knit neighborhood of magazine and book publishers, if that. And there are MFA's to be had and reviewers etc etc to create the necessary sense of institutional approval. MFA's thrive, by and large, by convincing poets who in the past would have been "amateur" "neighborhood" poets to become "nationally recognized" "Prize-winning" poets. This isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. I mean, it's no doubt created some interesting communities and given some people an avenue out of a seriously bad and/or boring existence. And obviously some very, very good poets have come up that way. But my point is: I bet my butt that there have always been a more or less equal percentage of "poetry readers" who *wrote poetry*, even if they didn't have the temerity in the past to identify themselves as "poets". MM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:23:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Combo Arts news plus flarf vids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody, Wanted to let you know that we've addred a news feature to the Combo Arts website -- we now have a "Featured Work" section that will change monthly. The first "Featured Work" piece is Hosea Hirata's Afterword to "Also with My Throat I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand Swords: Araki Yasusada's Letters in English." Just click on "Featured Work" and You're there. http://www.comboarts.org Also, the final video clip from the Flarf Collective reading at Dickinson College -- Rod Smith's reading -- is up along with the other readers at http://www.mainstreampoetry.com . You will also find there an answer to the question "What is an internet author?" in case you were wondering. Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:45:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <21063160.1166037492606.JavaMail.root@eastrmwml03.mgt.cox.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable reading poetry isn't solely a matter of reading what is typically called = poetry. poetry is the ghost in the machine. it also inflects work in = other arts, media, and technologies like smoke in the air. hopefully it = gets into everything.=20 ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:52:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: buck MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am wondering if any of you might spare a buck for Observable. I'll list your name and URL, if so. http://observable.org/dollar/ Or even a few bucks. Thanks, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:57:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start it, or what? -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com -- back to work cheers, heidi -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:19:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Seems to me a more important topic. Confession, anyone? Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061213151840.0516f9e8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in languages other than English? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: angela vasquez-giroux In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612131157u54e5a8b2v84b54ca804c9c954@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the US) is poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly pressing. i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're poets would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a perfect poem b/c they wrote it / say so. poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who wants to read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be writing poetry. but they all should be reading it. (on my high horse) angela On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're > selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start it, or > what? > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com > > -- back to work > > cheers, > > heidi > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > -- http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, This means you have specific ideas what poetry is beyond words. Could you elaborate? Murat On 12/13/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > reading poetry isn't solely a matter of reading what is typically called > poetry. poetry is the ghost in the machine. it also inflects work in other > arts, media, and technologies like smoke in the air. hopefully it gets into > everything. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:43:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0612131231j55f9adf3m82f0c9265fdea847@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline wouldn't it be equally nice if more poets read more than just poetry & theory? you know, things outside of 'the work'? i think that has something to do with audience...appeal. when half the readers mention deleuze or derrida and the other half talk about 'the poem' in ridiculous terms, you are, essentially at a conference. at that point, it shouldn't be surprising that non-specialists could care less. off to an insurance luncheon, On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? > > i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the US) > is > poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly > pressing. > > i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're poets > would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a perfect > poem > b/c they wrote it / say so. > > poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who wants to > read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be writing > poetry. but they all should be reading it. > > (on my high horse) > angela > > On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're > > selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start it, or > > what? > > > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com > > > > -- back to work > > > > cheers, > > > > heidi > > > > > > > > -- > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > -- > http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com > -- http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/thepixelplus/nhdoublewide.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:35:37 -0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ugo Calvigioni Subject: C=?iso-8859-1?Q?=EDrculo?= Internacional de Literatura Vanguardista - Write rs & Literature in Spanish/Portuguese MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Welcome to Vanguardist Writers Network, El escritor vanguardista busca en el arte algo que responda a esa novedad interna que vive el hombre, apoyándose en el descubrimiento original que uno lleva por dentro. Juego constante de símbolos, necesidades que no se adaptan a formas fijas, la negación a la versificación tradicional, son algunas de las características que hacen a un vanguardista, ya que lo fundamental no es lograr un sonido agradable, sino perseguir la libertad de expresión adecuada a su mundo interior. (in english coming soon) Los invito registrarse y participar, Ugo Calvigioni Director LaLupe.com Círculo Internacional de Literatura Vanguardista http://www.lalupe.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0612131231j55f9adf3m82f0c9265fdea847@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline angela -- first, a nod to your high horse -- hang on to it -- in answer to your question -- "what do you mean by 'selling out'" -- who was it that called clinton a panderbear? -- to write as a service of stenography for individuals who want their own style and views expressed in contemporary poetry in order to gratify their egos and wallets is selling out -- to allow corporate interests or upper class cliques to treat poets as stenographers -- when they can't find a mirror handy -- is selling out -- to allow these same corporate interests to leech off your entire poetic network because they find it entertaining -- is selling out -- to write to please the status quo -- is selling out -- to write to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out -- and so on -- i am sure that everyone else could add to this list which is my infuriated hungover take on the issue at the moment --over to you, heidi On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? > > i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the US) > is > poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly > pressing. > > i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're poets > would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a perfect > poem > b/c they wrote it / say so. > > poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who wants to > read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be writing > poetry. but they all should be reading it. > > (on my high horse) > angela > > On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're > > selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start it, or > > what? > > > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com > > > > -- back to work > > > > cheers, > > > > heidi > > > > > > > > -- > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > -- > http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:23:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: non-poets who read poetry In-Reply-To: <8f6eafee0612131231j55f9adf3m82f0c9265fdea847@mail.gmail.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed which poetry are you talking about? Chax recently had a book signing for a local poet, Jefferson Carter, not widely known away from here. We sold 60 books in almost 3 hours, and I watched people sit down (it was in a lobby of a downtown hotel with a bar, part of the time while a happy hour was going on) and read the book while sipping martinis and the like. Some looked like they were reading it quite seriously. Very few of them were poets. They were definitely friends of the poet, and probably wouldn't go to a similar event for someone they didn't know personally. And today, a member of the state legislature of Arizona came in on another matter (about the forced evictions in our warehouse and in other Tucson warehouse art spaces). I had never met him before and didn't know he knew anything about Chax Press. But almost upon entering, he said, "I want to buy the book you published by Allison Cobb," and he did buy it, and seemed very happy with that. Sure, he knew her as a college friend. I mean, I can't think of a lot of people who read poetry constantly, as poets do, who aren't poets. But I think I could probably, off the top of my head, either name a few dozen people who occasionally read poetry who aren't poets, and think of examples of more. Not always the poetry I might like them to read, but so what? This does not deny a shrinking audience (or one already shrunk, for a long time now), but in some ways this thread hasn't made sense to me, because I've always known non-poets who read poetry. charles At 01:31 PM 12/13/2006, you wrote: >heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? > >i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the US) is >poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly >pressing. > >i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're poets >would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a perfect poem >b/c they wrote it / say so. > >poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who wants to >read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be writing >poetry. but they all should be reading it. > >(on my high horse) >angela > >On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: >> >>-- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're >>selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start it, or >>what? >> >>-- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com >> >>-- back to work >> >>cheers, >> >>heidi >> >> >> >>-- >>www.heidiarnold.org >>http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > >-- >http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com > charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:23:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612131235n529123d2n8c9a651e56657e9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This means you have specific ideas what poetry is beyond words. Could you > elaborate? > > Murat Not necessarily 'beyond words' but either not only words or words in contexts that are atypical and worthy to be thought of as involving reading poetry. Or if 'beyond words', then in intensest language nonetheless--working through language in any number of ways that are 'beyond words' but intensely involved with language. Lettristic work, for instance, or sound poetry... I read a paper today that Dan Waber posted a link to the other day: "From Concrete to Digital: The Reconceptualisation of Poetic Space" ( http://tinyurl.com/y5n7e6 ), by Anna Katharina Schaffner. It occurred to me, after reading it, that one of the useful things about concrete poetry was its furthering of a flexible mentality concerning language. Intensest engagement with language is ever shifting in its nature, locale, technologies, contexts. Poetry needs to be flexible also to respond with full humanity to the shifts in what is sayable and how it's sayable. Expansive. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:44:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: vulture protein In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612131244q19330082p8f56fb8db9d517a4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline When there is a reality television series titled "Project Poetry" I will start paying attention to this thread. Poetry is not selling out to a mainstream audience near you anytime soon. But hey, I can't sit here any think / write about poetry all day . . . I have a life to live. Tony On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > angela -- > > first, a nod to your high horse -- hang on to it > > -- in answer to your question -- "what do you mean by 'selling out'" > > -- who was it that called clinton a panderbear? > > -- to write as a service of stenography for individuals who want their own > style and views expressed in contemporary poetry in order to gratify their > egos and wallets is selling out -- to allow corporate interests or upper > class cliques to treat poets as stenographers -- when they can't find a > mirror handy -- is selling out -- to allow these same corporate interests > to > leech off your entire poetic network because they find it entertaining -- > is > selling out -- to write to please the status quo -- is selling out -- to > write to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community happy with their > masturbatory inner lives is selling out -- and so on > > -- i am sure that everyone else could add to this list which is my > infuriated hungover take on the issue at the moment > > --over to you, > > heidi > > On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux > wrote: > > > > heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? > > > > i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the > US) > > is > > poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly > > pressing. > > > > i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're > poets > > would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a perfect > > poem > > b/c they wrote it / say so. > > > > poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who wants > to > > read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be writing > > poetry. but they all should be reading it. > > > > (on my high horse) > > angela > > > > On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > > > > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're > > > selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start it, > or > > > what? > > > > > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com > > > > > > -- back to work > > > > > > cheers, > > > > > > heidi > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.heidiarnold.org > > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:24:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Poets who read poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Taking a step back from the conversation here about "non poets who read poetry" it can seem goofy. Non poets who read poetry: poets. But then it's ascribed that poets are born. Then moreover you have certain advanced readers (scholars and critics) at times offering the dumb, lugubrious equivalent to "poets are still human." So are astronauts, and there aren't any non-astronauts doing space research in orbit. Enough said, as they say. I grew up in the rural midwest, but I did grow up on great fiction. I like the functional reality expressed by the novelist or photographer, say, utterly graphed into the environment, opposing to that "ivory tower" of poetry about whence all these types of conversations are seriously entertained, resulting in some equally dumb, lugubrious description of what makes poetry. Those novelists and photographers are slighted offhand, yet they are forcing us to reckon with them, while poetry is "always-already" re-formulating itself as a community of potential executives of an over-abstracted notion of ideal social governance. Most of it, as I can see, is concerned with "how poetry should be," by it's already having been imputed to be that governance, as an _ideal ultimate reality_/, /but doing what? Didn't make the past and won't make the future, because it wants no affidavit for Colluding with Time. A good novel requires more attention than a regular collection of "good poetry," which doesn't say much. An "ordinary" person who doesn't read books (I know several myself, actually) can comment a little and with elevated passion on what gives the required reading some interesting or provoking element, and it requires /and/ inspires more effort than hearing and appreciating to hear a poem recited for a moment of fleeting bliss, and pursuing it as work leads immediately to the ultimate rhetorics of life and beauty, that gives the leading poets an illusory panache of omniscience arriving from their having grappled with those rhetorics to some arbitrary nuance. Yes, poetry is so full of life and beauty it burdens the scribe who's saying "more than you know." So what? What else does it say? And let me note my feeling of warm content in perpetuating along these lines. I think I'll take a break from scattering résumés on the internet, and read some poetry. Jesse Crockett kevin thurston wrote: > wouldn't it be equally nice if more poets read more than just poetry & > theory? you know, things outside of 'the work'? i think that has > something > to do with audience...appeal. when half the readers mention deleuze or > derrida and the other half talk about 'the poem' in ridiculous terms, you > are, essentially at a conference. at that point, it shouldn't be > surprising > that non-specialists could care less. > > off to an insurance luncheon, > > On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux > wrote: >> >> heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? >> >> i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the >> US) >> is >> poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly >> pressing. >> >> i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're >> poets >> would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a perfect >> poem >> b/c they wrote it / say so. >> >> poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who >> wants to >> read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be writing >> poetry. but they all should be reading it. >> >> (on my high horse) >> angela >> >> On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: >> > >> > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely "we're >> > selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start >> it, or >> > what? >> > >> > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com >> > >> > -- back to work >> > >> > cheers, >> > >> > heidi >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > www.heidiarnold.org >> > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:37:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Heidi Arnold: >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity.=20 which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or deepens it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this limits their perspective a whole damn lot.=20 tl -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any=20 poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the=20 purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in=20 languages other than English? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:52:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This conversation seems odd and oddly entangled. Poets write poetry. There are people who read poetry. Some of them write poetry. There are plenty of people who write poetry who do not read poetry. Is the question of this thread really: Does anyone know any published poets who don't read poetry. I'm assuming this wouldn't include self-published poets, of course. Whether someone who writes a certain kind of poetry will "approve of" the poetry other's read is irrelevant and elitist. It also speaks to the heart of that ever-present topic on poetry list servs: who gets to call themselves a poet. I got a business card from a woman in Scotland who calls herself a Poetry Practitioner because she thinks that's humble. I don't think it is- it's an attempt to raise the bar and make being a POET something akin to a spiritual calling or shamanistic role. And then holding that honor just slightly above your own head and blushing slightly with eyes lowered coquettishly. _____ I read poetry in English and Norwegian. Those are the only two languages in which I am fluent. I do read translations of very many other languages and the various traditions are very interesting. On another list serve people were whining about how in Iran and other countries poets were treated like rock stars. The funny thing is, if these same poets read the work of these Iranian poets, they'd condemn it as populist and trite- ______ Ren Powell post@renpowell.com www.icorn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:36:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Such a simple question: 'does anyone know any non-poets who read = poetry?' For such complex answers (no need to thank me for not posting them = here).=20 I prefer something akin to the following: A.) Yes, I know some non-poets who read poetry in both instances,=20 Instance 1. 1.) In the instance of performers who read aloud the works of = others, actors, for example, I know several such folks; they read, they = perform, they don't necessarily write. Instance 2.=20 2.) In the instance of people who read the works of others for = the pleasure of reading the works, as many do, and indeed as do I. = Yes, indeed, I've several acquaintances who enjoy reading poetry written = by others, and who don't themselves write it, or at least don't = acknowledge publicly they do. =20 Also, I'm amused, amazed and only slightly befuddled by the complexity = of the responses to such a simple question.=20 Reminds me somewhat of the Spam story about the 7 year old who asks his = dad a Q about where he came from...remember it? Dad responded with = details of pre-familial relationships and wanders through details of = early dating, wooing, foreplay, seduction, intercourse and finally = conception prior to birth.=20 All of which resulted in the boy's saying, "Gee thanks, Dad, that's = great; Sally says she came from Brooklyn."=20 I am not a poet; I write what I call poetry. I read the poetry of = others. I also read prose, mostly history and current events news and = commentary, and I am not an historian. Further, I read the NY Times and = the WA Post, daily (I don't read the weekend editions; too weighty with = ads); I am not a journalist. =20 By the way, do any of you remember an early T.V. interview with Carl = Sandburg...back in the late 50's or maybe early 60's...in any event, I = seem to recall the interviewer calling him a poet to Sandburg's = objection. I can't begin to recall with sufficient accuracy to even = paraphrase the response, but I vaguely remember his referring to himself = as a chronicler of humanity...or words to that effect. =20 Any one else have any recollections of that interview? =20 Alex=20 P.S. Gabe, why do you say the poetry at Whole (paycheck) Foods is "(not = good)?" Did you pay for one and were you disappointed after reading it? = Or were you reporting on the reactions of others who paid and were = disappointed? Did you actually read any of the works, or not? I'm just = curious about the grounds upon which the evaluation comment were based. = ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gabrielle Welford=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? there's a man who sits outside whole foods in berkeley with a = typewriter and writes a spontaneous poem for anyone who asks for one while = they're shopping. you pay him a donation when you come out, and he hands you = a scruffy little piece of paper with a (not good) poem on it on the = theme of your choice. gabe gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system = (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Easton Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A0529A0@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tom, -- i am sitting in my office with at last count a 1000 volume library most of which is poetry, which i own, which is in several languages -- -- heidi On 12/13/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > Heidi Arnold: > >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community > >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out > > this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on > anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really > have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? > > speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get > over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over > this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier > for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. > > which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or deepens > it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your > voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? > > unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin > Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this > limits their perspective a whole damn lot. > > tl > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? > > I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any > poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the > purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. > > Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in > languages other than English? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:43:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable which is to say...? I'm sorry, I lumped two comments into a single = message=20 -- I still don't get what the problem is with the "fat-assed exploiters" = in the arts community. what does that mean?=20 please let's not make this "whose poetry collection is bigger -- whose = reading list is larger, more diverse, more multi..." you read what you = read, you take what you need to take from it.=20 Ren from Troms=F8's comment a little while ago about this topic being = unreasonably vexed/vexing was particularly apt... tusen takk, tl -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Kate Easton Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 17:37 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? Tom, -- i am sitting in my office with at last count a 1000 volume library = most of which is poetry, which i own, which is in several languages -- -- heidi On 12/13/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > Heidi Arnold: > >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts = community > >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out > > this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on > anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really > have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? > > speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get > over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over > this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier > for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. > > which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or = deepens > it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your > voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? > > unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin > Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this > limits their perspective a whole damn lot. > > tl > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group = [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? > > I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any > poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the > purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. > > Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in > languages other than English? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:50:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Easton Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A0529A2@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Tom, with due respect to a midwesterner -- -- i don't get it -- first you say i'm too shy to read the word of others -= - i give you evidence to the contrary -- then you say please let's not compar= e who's read what -- as for the "fat-assed exploiters of the arts community" THEY know who they are, I know who they are, they know that I know, and I am going to cal= l a spade a spade so that the goddamn fucking corporate interests go out and find people who WANT to be pimped for the entertainment of the brain-dead -= - and leave the ARTISTS alone to do their ART -h On 12/13/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > which is to say...? I'm sorry, I lumped two comments into a single messag= e > -- I still don't get what the problem is with the "fat-assed exploiters" > in the arts community. what does that mean? > > please let's not make this "whose poetry collection is bigger -- whose > reading list is larger, more diverse, more multi..." you read what you re= ad, > you take what you need to take from it. > > Ren from Troms=F8's comment a little while ago about this topic being > unreasonably vexed/vexing was particularly apt... > > tusen takk, > > tl > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] O= n > Behalf Of Kate Easton > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 17:37 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? > > Tom, > > -- i am sitting in my office with at last count a 1000 volume library mos= t > of which is poetry, which i own, which is in several languages -- > > -- heidi > > On 12/13/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > > > Heidi Arnold: > > >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community > > >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out > > > > this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on > > anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really > > have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? > > > > speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get > > over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over > > this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier > > for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. > > > > which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or deepens > > it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your > > voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? > > > > unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin > > Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this > > limits their perspective a whole damn lot. > > > > tl > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? > > > > I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any > > poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the > > purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. > > > > Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in > > languages other than English? > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:17:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm reading the second collection of Carl Hiaasen's columns. gb On 13-Dec-06, at 12:43 PM, kevin thurston wrote: > wouldn't it be equally nice if more poets read more than just poetry & > theory? you know, things outside of 'the work'? i think that has > something > to do with audience...appeal. when half the readers mention deleuze or > derrida and the other half talk about 'the poem' in ridiculous terms, > you > are, essentially at a conference. at that point, it shouldn't be > surprising > that non-specialists could care less. > > off to an insurance luncheon, > > On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux > wrote: >> >> heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? >> >> i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the >> US) >> is >> poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite frankly >> pressing. >> >> i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're >> poets >> would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a >> perfect >> poem >> b/c they wrote it / say so. >> >> poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who >> wants to >> read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should be >> writing >> poetry. but they all should be reading it. >> >> (on my high horse) >> angela >> >> On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: >> > >> > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely >> "we're >> > selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to start >> it, or >> > what? >> > >> > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com >> > >> > -- back to work >> > >> > cheers, >> > >> > heidi >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > www.heidiarnold.org >> > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com >> > > > > -- > http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/thepixelplus/nhdoublewide.html > > G. Harry Bowering Has never voted Liberal or Conservative. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:19:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Why such a small number of books in your office? On 13-Dec-06, at 3:37 PM, Kate Easton wrote: > Tom, > > -- i am sitting in my office with at last count a 1000 volume library > most > of which is poetry, which i own, which is in several languages -- > > -- heidi > > On 12/13/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: >> >> Heidi Arnold: >> >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts >> community >> >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out >> >> this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on >> anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really >> have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? >> >> speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get >> over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over >> this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier >> for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. >> >> which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or >> deepens >> it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your >> voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? >> >> unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin >> Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this >> limits their perspective a whole damn lot. >> >> tl >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >> On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks >> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? >> >> I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any >> poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the >> purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. >> >> Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in >> languages other than English? >> > > Mr. G. Bowering Faster than a speeding pullet. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:26:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT some of my argument was idiosyncratic, but i feel that two of my points are relevant.. 1. Poets are ascribed as born, deflecting potential readers. 2. Poets are ascribed as more than human, deflecting potential readers. then i have more idiosyncratic, small points.. poets ostensibly hold an urgent grievance or secret fait accompli, & leverage interest in "finding out about that," but don't seem to provide a reasonable climax compared to novels and movies poetry in my experience is more an art that empties you first, then attempts to fill you back up, and enough of it fails that reciprocation, & in the newcomer to poetry the feeling is "lacking yet more," & that's to say an impotent feeling, while a somewhat insufficient movie or novel fills us up first, then works to empty, yet when these forms fail, the average reader or viewer has the feeling of "having something" yet to dispose of, & already at a pretty good clip, there's a feeling of possibility. granted those feelings are causing much delusion here & now, and most of us are growing up on it. even now i feel that i could say more and better, but it's the left-over junk of poor drama, urging me to repeat myself. i feel that i "have something," & the more i keep at it, an element of delusion creeps in. -jesse George Bowering wrote: > Why such a small number of books in your office? > > > On 13-Dec-06, at 3:37 PM, Kate Easton wrote: > >> Tom, >> >> -- i am sitting in my office with at last count a 1000 volume library >> most >> of which is poetry, which i own, which is in several languages -- >> >> -- heidi >> >> On 12/13/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: >>> >>> Heidi Arnold: >>> >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community >>> >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out >>> >>> this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on >>> anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really >>> have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? >>> >>> speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get >>> over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over >>> this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier >>> for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. >>> >>> which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or deepens >>> it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your >>> voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? >>> >>> unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin >>> Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this >>> limits their perspective a whole damn lot. >>> >>> tl >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? >>> >>> I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any >>> poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the >>> purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. >>> >>> Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in >>> languages other than English? >>> >> >> > Mr. G. Bowering > Faster than a speeding pullet. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:59:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Rusty Morrison's email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I was hoping someone might be willing and able to share Rusty Morrison's email with me. I was trying to track her down through Saint Mary's or Omnidawn, but found no email address specifically for her. Thanks! Tod "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:11:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: <4580A855.5020800@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I guess I'm a bit confused by these comments, as, aside from Ren's, the original query seems counter to "our moment" as some would say -- who is an avid movie fan who hasn't participated in making a movie / especially arty home movie / filmlet on a digital camera / you tube whatever? Who has gone to a jillion open mike nights and had friends in bands and hasn't written a song / sung back up / played the triangle? Who hasn't tried to write a comic or a story? Who hasn't ever been to or in a poetry slam? Why read loads of poetry and not put a hand in? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:50:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <00798F3B-9DA2-4A81-9FA5-D9D7AE46178C@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed My premise is that the audience for poetry=97far more than music, art & =20= theatre=97is the extended community of the poets themselves. =20 Audienceship is a reciprocal exchange between us=97we know who our =20 readers are=97we know their names=97we've traded books & emails=97met at = =20 conferences. The real consumers are exactly those that are infected =20 by words & books & the larger literary community=97& being infected =20 means that one be participant in the writing as well as the culture =20 of readings, books & scholarship. This is something I often forget =20 when I'm writing. ~mIEKAL >> >> From: Michael Magee >> Date: December 13, 2006 1:18:12 PM CST >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? >> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >> The short answer is, "Yes, plenty of em." But I also think the =20 >> premise of the question is false. It's the sort of question poets =20= >> use to beat themselves up. Oh, we're so inconsequential! No one =20 >> reads our work but us! The truth is that the majority of poetry =20 >> readers have ALWAYS been poetry writers. Wouldn't almost anyone =20 >> who loved reading poetry take a shot at writing a few poems =20 >> themselves? "The more technological our societies, the more our walls ooze ghosts." =97Italo Calvino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: In Progress on It's All Connected Comments: cc: newmanr@ncc.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Cunt Poem, Fourth and Fifth/final Movements: Fourth Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -fo urth-movement/=20 Fifth Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -fi fth-movement-the-poem-itself/=20 And for anyone who=92s interested in reading through the whole =93in = progress=94 version of it, here are the URLs in order (I will be happy to send = anyone who=92s interested a copy of the finished piece when it=92s ready): =95 First Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/10/16/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -fi rst-movement/=20 =95 Second Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/11/22/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -se cond-movement/ =20 =95 Third Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/12/09/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -th ird-movement/ =20 =95 Fourth Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -fo urth-movement/=20 =95 Fifth Movement: http://itsallconnected.wordpress.com/2006/12/14/in-progress-the-cunt-poem= -fi fth-movement-the-poem-itself/=20 Rich Newman ________________________ Richard Jeffrey Newman Associate Professor, English Nassau Community College One Education Drive Garden City, NY 11530 O: (516) 572-7612 F:=A0(516) 572-8134 newmanr@ncc.edu http://faculty.ncc.edu/newmanr www.richardjnewman.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:12:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Lexical dosage Comments: To: NEOLOGISMS@YAHOOGROUPS.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed expeculate To parse all of one's speculations simultaneously as if to clarify expectations. 2006-12-14 wikipediot The gang of wikipedians responsible for judging & deleting any content which does not agree with their vision of knowledge. 2006-12-11 shopwreck The inevitable disaster of purchasing an inappropriate gift. (Much more likely to happen during Christmas season.) 2006-12-03 oxtromoly Those were heady times. Those were the best of times. 2006-11-24 vowglish Synonym for aeiouglish. 2006-11-24 aeiouglish An ur-language generated by evolving patterns of vowel substitution. 2006-11-24 whuchwun Some confusion exists as to which memories verify consensus reality. 2006-11-23 abilliant Able to maintain a radiant personality despite the mind-numbing deterioration of civilization. 2006-11-22 thitherwar Immoral wars conducted on foreign soil. 2006-11-22 opplicobla Making the most of whatever opportunities are available in the present moment. 2006-11-22 wynstex The point in the distance when a sound becomes inaudible. 2006-11-18 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, You are responding, but indirectly, to the question I am asking. If we can conceive of visual poetry, for example -not only of concrete or sound poetry, but also of poetry which is the result of merging media in different ways- then the connection of poetry strictly to words has to change. Of course, such a change has numerous (endless?) consequences. Ciao, Murat On 12/13/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > This means you have specific ideas what poetry is beyond words. Could > you > > elaborate? > > > > Murat > > Not necessarily 'beyond words' but either not only words or words in > contexts that are atypical and worthy to be thought of as involving > reading > poetry. Or if 'beyond words', then in intensest language > nonetheless--working through language in any number of ways that are > 'beyond > words' but intensely involved with language. Lettristic work, for > instance, > or sound poetry... > > I read a paper today that Dan Waber posted a link to the other day: "From > Concrete to Digital: The Reconceptualisation of Poetic Space" ( > http://tinyurl.com/y5n7e6 ), by Anna Katharina Schaffner. It occurred to > me, > after reading it, that one of the useful things about concrete poetry was > its furthering of a flexible mentality concerning language. Intensest > engagement with language is ever shifting in its nature, locale, > technologies, contexts. Poetry needs to be flexible also to respond with > full humanity to the shifts in what is sayable and how it's sayable. > Expansive. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 03:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and uninspired In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my office bookshelf is longer and broader than yours. it lasts longer and gets the bigger checks, too. so touch me. i'm so. diverse. say, maybe you'd. maybe you'd like me. maybe you'd like me to deposit a shelf's worth in your return box? winky winky! - guy masculin, the john holmes of the home office library scene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:30:21 -0500 Reply-To: jamie@rockheals.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jamie Gaughran-Perez Subject: kari edwards audio recording / tribute In-Reply-To: <001201c71f35$cad59070$6501a8c0@YOUR93EFC763D5> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit [apologies for any cross-posting] Back in March 2006 kari edwards read over here in Baltimore at the i.e. reading series. Fortunately enough (in hindsight), Justin Sirois recorded the reading. Over the past week he was able to dig up the source files and compress them down to MP3s -- which we have up on Rock Heals this week with other brief remembrances and a short tribute poem from Michael Ball. http://www.rockheals.com The audio is 23 minutes of kari reading from her last book, "obedience," so it's no short download (10.x MB!), but since there are so few recordings of her available, we thought it was best to get it out there for everyone. Download it and enjoy, today and tomorrow and the next day and the next, etc. They'll be there after this week, you'll just have to look in the archives to find 'em. jamie.gp -- Jamie Gaughran-Perez www.rockheals.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 05:31:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612132204o37232f8ch582dbf690849604b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are responding, but indirectly, to the question I am asking. If we can > conceive of visual poetry, for example -not only of concrete or sound > poetry, but also of poetry which is the result of merging media > in different > ways- then the connection of poetry strictly to words has to change. Of > course, such a change has numerous (endless?) consequences. > > Murat Here is a related pair of pieces that do that, I think, Murat. "Enigma n" (which is an anagram of 'meaning') is a 1998 piece at http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman . This unfolds as a kind of application with a menu. The period at the end tells you where the menu ends. You keep clicking till you get to the end of the menu and have explored the menu possibilities individually. This piece explores how the process of creating and constructing meaning can change when a poem is a computer program that is also involved in the visual and notions of interface. The terms of the menu are usually verbs. Operations on language and the visual. For instance, you can set the colors of the letters. But the piece itself then starts changing the colors. You can view the source code of this piece by right-clicking on the screen and choosing 'View source'. "Enigma n^2" at http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman2 is a related but later (2002) piece. Interactive audio/visual. In this piece, the word "meaning" is represented not as letters but as audio and there's a visual waveform representation of the audio. It graphs the audio's amplitude (volume). The audio consists of the word "meaning" pronounced three times. Twice forwards, once backwards. Clicking the waveform sets the audio's start point. You cannot set the end point. The piece itself makes that decision. The 'text' of this piece is the programming code, the engine, of the audio/visual piece. The source code is downloadable. Much of what is 'said' in both these pieces is conveyed through the interactivity, not explicitly through written or even sonic language. You do something and the piece reacts. Sometimes you can 'control' it as though it were simply a 'tool'. In other cases, it's actions or reactions are not wholly controllable. This hopefully turns into some sort of fucked up 'dialog' between the player and the piece. Whereas tools usually are intended to shut up and simply do your bidding, be an extension of your body or mind, etc. There is some otherness to poetry and art, however, usually; they rarely shut up and seek dialog. There *is* written and sonic language here, and I think it plays a genuinely significant role, but there are other forms of language/dialog going on also. ja ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:52:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Thanks. Murat On 12/14/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > You are responding, but indirectly, to the question I am asking. If we > can > > conceive of visual poetry, for example -not only of concrete or sound > > poetry, but also of poetry which is the result of merging media > > in different > > ways- then the connection of poetry strictly to words has to change. Of > > course, such a change has numerous (endless?) consequences. > > > > Murat > > Here is a related pair of pieces that do that, I think, Murat. > > "Enigma n" (which is an anagram of 'meaning') is a 1998 piece at > http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman . This unfolds as a kind of application > with a menu. The period at the end tells you where the menu ends. You keep > clicking till you get to the end of the menu and have explored the menu > possibilities individually. This piece explores how the process of > creating > and constructing meaning can change when a poem is a computer program that > is also involved in the visual and notions of interface. The terms of the > menu are usually verbs. Operations on language and the visual. For > instance, > you can set the colors of the letters. But the piece itself then starts > changing the colors. You can view the source code of this piece by > right-clicking on the screen and choosing 'View source'. > > "Enigma n^2" at http://vispo.com/animisms/enigman2 is a related but later > (2002) piece. Interactive audio/visual. In this piece, the word "meaning" > is > represented not as letters but as audio and there's a visual waveform > representation of the audio. It graphs the audio's amplitude (volume). The > audio consists of the word "meaning" pronounced three times. Twice > forwards, > once backwards. Clicking the waveform sets the audio's start point. You > cannot set the end point. The piece itself makes that decision. The 'text' > of this piece is the programming code, the engine, of the audio/visual > piece. The source code is downloadable. > > Much of what is 'said' in both these pieces is conveyed through the > interactivity, not explicitly through written or even sonic language. You > do > something and the piece reacts. Sometimes you can 'control' it as though > it > were simply a 'tool'. In other cases, it's actions or reactions are not > wholly controllable. This hopefully turns into some sort of fucked up > 'dialog' between the player and the piece. Whereas tools usually are > intended to shut up and simply do your bidding, be an extension of your > body > or mind, etc. There is some otherness to poetry and art, however, > usually; > they rarely shut up and seek dialog. > > There *is* written and sonic language here, and I think it plays a > genuinely > significant role, but there are other forms of language/dialog going on > also. > > ja > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:58:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathleen Ossip Subject: Reminder: Reading tomorrow night in W'burgh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friday, December 15th, 8 PM EARSHOT! =A0 Join us for the next installment of EARSHOT at The Lucky Cat, located in=20 Williamsburg, Brooklyn!=A0 EARSHOT is a bi-monthly reading series, dedicated= to=20 featuring new and emerging literary talent in the NYC area. =A0 Friday, December 15th, 2006 at 8 PM, hosted by Nicole Steinberg *co-sponsored by Book Court (www.bookcourt.org)* =A0 Featuring: David Lehman (author of When a Woman Loves a Man, The Evening Sun, and The=20 Daily Mirror, and series editor of The Best American Poetry) Kathleen Ossip (author of The Search Engine) Eileen Sutton (New York University) Christopher Kondrich (Columbia University) Jessica Penner (Sarah Lawrence College) =A0 Admission is a mere $5 plus one free drink (beer, wine or well drinks only)= ! =A0 The Lucky Cat is located at 245 Grand Street in Brooklyn, between Driggs an= d=20 Roebling.=A0 Visit their website for directions: http://www.theluckycat.com. =A0 *Call** for submissions to EARSHOT!* =A0 The Earshot Reading Series is looking for MFA students to read during the=20 months of the upcoming spring semester (February to June). MFA students from= all=20 genres are encouraged to submit. To apply for a reading spot, please send=20 either 3 poems or 5-7 pages of prose (fiction and non-fiction both welcomed)= to=20 Nicole Steinberg at earshotnyc@gmail.com. Don't forget to state what program you currently attend. Please keep in mind that space this year= =20 is VERY limited and demand always exceeds the number of available spots. For= =20 more information about Earshot, please visit http://www.earshotnyc.com. =A0 EARSHOT! http://www.earshotnyc.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:49:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A0529A0@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I find that constantly reading poems by others helps me write my work. I knew someone about ten years ago who claimed not to read poems by others for fear it might compromise her style. She has since given up writing poetry altogether for writing songs. "Tom W. Lewis" wrote: Heidi Arnold: >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or deepens it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this limits their perspective a whole damn lot. tl -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in languages other than English? --------------------------------- Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:56:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: vulture protein Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? In-Reply-To: <960455.28580.qm@web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Did she stop listening to music too? On 12/14/06, Thomas savage wrote: > > I find that constantly reading poems by others helps me write my work. I > knew someone about ten years ago who claimed not to read poems by others for > fear it might compromise her style. She has since given up writing poetry > altogether for writing songs. > > "Tom W. Lewis" wrote: Heidi Arnold: > >[anyone who writes] to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community > >happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out > > this sounds like crazy talk to me -- who's making their fortune on > anything resembling the kind of work discussed here? and do we really > have a mole folding "fake" questions into the mix? > > speaking for myself, in reading poetry it took me a long time to get > over the "I'll never be as good as _____" anxiety -- once I got over > this ego-tension aspect of any reading experience, it was a lot easier > for me to read others' work with an open mind and clarity. > > which doesn't compromise one's voice, as I see it -- expands or deepens > it, if you pay close enough attention. if you think the purity of your > voice has been ruined, maybe it wasn't much of a voice to begin with? > > unfortunately, I know several people who write poetry in the Twin > Cities, but who are too shy to read the work of others -- I think this > limits their perspective a whole damn lot. > > tl > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Christopher Leland Winks > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 14:28 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Does anyone know any poets who don't read poetry? > > I'll wager that a good many denizens of MFA programs don't read any > poetry other than those produced in their workshops. Can't ruin the > purity and originality of my "voice," don't you know. > > Or a corollary: how many poets on the list don't read poetry in > languages other than English? > > > > --------------------------------- > Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:04:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and uninspired In-Reply-To: <45810DF2.8000309@proximate.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll show you mine if you show me yours:=20 http://www.librarything.com/profile.php?view=3DLarsonLewisProject NB: we've catalogued about 1/3 of our books -- I haven't put up most of my poetry/ poetics collection yet...=20 LibraryThing's tag cloud feature is a visual indicator of how much we've got of what: http://www.librarything.com/tagcloud.php?view=3DLarsonLewisProject prove that I lie: books are better than Viagra.=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Patrick Herron Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:40 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and uninspired my office bookshelf is longer and broader than yours. it lasts longer=20 and gets the bigger checks, too. so touch me. i'm so. diverse. say, maybe you'd. maybe you'd like me. maybe you'd like me to deposit a shelf's worth in your return box? winky winky! - guy masculin, the john holmes of the home office library scene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:06:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Shelley Jackson interviews Vito Acconci Comments: To: Theory and Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Never knew Acconci went to the Iowa Writer's Workshop... http://www.believermag.com/issues/200612/?read=interview_acconci ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and uninspired In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A0529A7@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- only a complete idiot would put the contents of their library out for the world to see -- for christ's sake, tom.... -- h On 12/14/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > I'll show you mine if you show me yours: > > http://www.librarything.com/profile.php?view=LarsonLewisProject > > NB: we've catalogued about 1/3 of our books -- I haven't put up most of > my poetry/ poetics collection yet... > > LibraryThing's tag cloud feature is a visual indicator of how much we've > got of what: > > http://www.librarything.com/tagcloud.php?view=LarsonLewisProject > > prove that I lie: books are better than Viagra. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Patrick Herron > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:40 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and > uninspired > > my office bookshelf is longer and broader than yours. it lasts longer > and gets the bigger checks, too. > > so touch me. i'm so. diverse. say, maybe you'd. maybe you'd like me. > > maybe you'd like me to deposit a shelf's worth in your return box? > > winky winky! > > - guy masculin, the john holmes of the home office library scene > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:26:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: vulture protein Subject: Re: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and uninspired In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612140814j7a5f0301jc24aec5ef7eec174@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I would like to counter Heidi's idiot argument with this: http://www.heidiarnold.org/ I didn't know so much self indulgence could fit into one picture! On 12/14/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > -- only a complete idiot would put the contents of their library out for > the > world to see > > -- for christ's sake, tom.... > > -- h > > On 12/14/06, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > > > I'll show you mine if you show me yours: > > > > http://www.librarything.com/profile.php?view=LarsonLewisProject > > > > NB: we've catalogued about 1/3 of our books -- I haven't put up most of > > my poetry/ poetics collection yet... > > > > LibraryThing's tag cloud feature is a visual indicator of how much we've > > got of what: > > > > http://www.librarything.com/tagcloud.php?view=LarsonLewisProject > > > > prove that I lie: books are better than Viagra. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On Behalf Of Patrick Herron > > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:40 > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and > > uninspired > > > > my office bookshelf is longer and broader than yours. it lasts longer > > and gets the bigger checks, too. > > > > so touch me. i'm so. diverse. say, maybe you'd. maybe you'd like me. > > > > maybe you'd like me to deposit a shelf's worth in your return box? > > > > winky winky! > > > > - guy masculin, the john holmes of the home office library scene > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:33:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: witless subliterate literary fakes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- here is one article of interest on the problem of literary fakes, i'm sure there are many others: -- of course, then there are the fakes who walk the streets.... Pieper, Peter *Title:* *The Bones with Runic Inscriptions from the Lower Weser River: New Results of Scientific Investigations Concerning the Problem: Original(s) or Fake(s)* *Source:* *In:* Bammesberger, Alfred (ed.); 632 pp.; Old English Runes and Their Continental Background; Winter, Heidelberg * Pagination:* 343-58 *Series:* Anglistische Forschungen (*Acronym:* AF) *Number:* 217 MLA Directory of Periodicals *Year:* 1991 *Standard No:* *ISBN:* 9783533044635 (pbk.); 9783533044642 (hbk.) *ISSN:* 0179-1389 *Language:* English *SUBJECT(S): * *Descriptor:* Germanic languages - writing systems - epigraphy - runic inscriptions *Document Type:* book article *Update:* *Code:* 199601 *Accession No:* 1996011100 *MLA Sequence No:* 1996-3-4951 *Database:* MLA -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:37:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: witless subironic reading solely for the humorless and uninspired In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, vulture protein wrote: > http://www.heidiarnold.org/ > > I didn't know so much self indulgence could fit into one picture! > I dunno about self-indulgence, but I do know that what appears to be a lit candle is a big no-no next to a computer and other electronic equipment, to say nothing of all that paper. If it's scented, it's also a superb way to kill your asthmatic officemate, although if you remain blissfully untainted by evil academe, that's one of the things you ain't gotta worry about. Gwyn (in no scent) McVay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:38:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: witless subliterate literary fakes In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612140833w4bf7a7ddxe2c0dd728c799fdd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Those links work if you go to SUNY Binghamton. On 12/14/06, heidi arnold wrote: > -- here is one article of interest on the problem of literary fakes, i'm > sure there are many others: > > -- of course, then there are the fakes who walk the streets.... > > Pieper, Peter > *Title:* *The Bones with Runic Inscriptions from the Lower Weser River: > New Results of Scientific Investigations Concerning the Problem: Original(s) > or Fake(s)* *Source:* *In:* Bammesberger, Alfred (ed.); 632 pp.; Old > English Runes and Their Continental Background; Winter, Heidelberg * > Pagination:* 343-58 *Series:* Anglistische Forschungen (*Acronym:* AF) > *Number:* 217 MLA Directory of > Periodicals > *Year:* 1991 *Standard No:* *ISBN:* 9783533044635 (pbk.); 9783533044642 > (hbk.) *ISSN:* 0179-1389 *Language:* English *SUBJECT(S): * > *Descriptor:* Germanic languages - writing systems - epigraphy - runic > inscriptions *Document Type:* book article *Update:* *Code:* 199601 > *Accession > No:* 1996011100 *MLA Sequence No:* 1996-3-4951 *Database:* MLA > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:52:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: News from Chicago Review Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed CR has posted some essays from its last issue online --- including Eirik Steinhoff's "The Making of Chicago Review: The Meteoric Years." Please check it out here: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/ orgs/review/ We've also posted photos from the magazine's sixtieth-anniversary party here: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/60thparty/ * * * Please visit CR's sixtieth-anniversary website & our homepage to subscribe for the holidays. | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: fish sleep Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed anyone know the word for fish sleep? i believe it starts with an x. susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Easton Subject: Re: witless subliterate literary fakes In-Reply-To: <750c78460612140838o47fdd0b8x3875ea7ad55f1758@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline the University of Chicago collection has the following: [image: Add to my list][image: Add to my list][image: Add to my list][image: Add to my list][image: Add to my list]Title: A treasury of deception : liars, misleaders, hoodwinkers, and the extraordinary true stories of history's greatest hoaxes, fakes, and frauds / Michael Farquhar. Author: FARQUHAR, MICHAEL.[image: Add to my list][image: Add to my list][image: Add to my list]Imprint: New York : Penguin, 2005.Description: 287 p. : ill. ; 21 cm.Subject(s): Impostors and imposture -- History -- Case studies.Deception -- History -- Case studies. LocationCall No.Copy/Vol. No.StatusDue DateRegenstein, Bookstacks -- heidi arnold On 12/14/06, Dan Coffey wrote: > > Those links work if you go to SUNY Binghamton. > > On 12/14/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > -- here is one article of interest on the problem of literary fakes, i'm > > sure there are many others: > > > > -- of course, then there are the fakes who walk the streets.... > > > > Pieper, Peter< > http://referenc.lib.binghamton.edu:2144/WebZ/FSQUERY?searchtype=hotauthors:format=BI:numrecs=10:dbname=MLA::termh1=Pieper%5C%2C+Peter:indexh1=au%3D:sessionid=fsapp2-36885-evpe2asw-8leoxs:entitypagenum=9:0:next=html/records.html:bad=error/badsearch.html > > > > *Title:* *The Bones with Runic Inscriptions from the Lower Weser > River: > > New Results of Scientific Investigations Concerning the Problem: > Original(s) > > or Fake(s)* *Source:* *In:* Bammesberger, Alfred (ed.); 632 pp.; Old > > English Runes and Their Continental Background; Winter, Heidelberg * > > Pagination:* 343-58 *Series:* Anglistische Forschungen (*Acronym:* AF) > > *Number:* 217 MLA Directory of > > Periodicals< > http://referenc.lib.binghamton.edu:2144/WebZ/FSQUERY?searchtype=periodicalrec:entitytmprecno=13:sessionid=fsapp2-36885-evpe2asw-8leoxs:entitypagenum=9:0?termsrch-pz%3D=AF:format=FI:next=html/tmprecord.html:bad=error/badsearch.html:tdbname=MLA:numrecs=10:entitytoprecno=1:entitycurrecno=1: > > > > *Year:* 1991 *Standard No:* *ISBN:* 9783533044635 (pbk.); > 9783533044642 > > (hbk.) *ISSN:* 0179-1389 *Language:* English *SUBJECT(S): * > > *Descriptor:* Germanic languages - writing systems - epigraphy - runic > > inscriptions *Document Type:* book article *Update:* *Code:* 199601 > > *Accession > > No:* 1996011100 *MLA Sequence No:* 1996-3-4951 *Database:* MLA > > > > -- > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > http://hyperhypo.org/blog > http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:24:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: absent and rhubarb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear all -- I wanted to alert you to two issues of consequence. The first is that absent magazine is now open for submissions; our issue is slated for 5 April 2007. Guidelines have changed, so please read them linked from our homepage at: http://absentmag.org/ The second is that rhubarb is susan, my poetry review blog, is again active and with new content: a review of Nicholas Perrin, and one of Erica Fiedler. Please check out their wonderful work and my commentary thereon. http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/12/erica-fiedler-alls-fair-at-fair.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/12/nicholas-perrin-growings-growth.html Thank you very much for tuning in. Yours, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:54:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Poetry Poetry Poetry...Good grief! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wonderful exchanges on the list - after, I wanna say, a slow autumn, or is it fall. And now, winter. And me no longer poopy. Wonder if this'll mean more civilians will come to readings, that people without any particular or specialized education will feel that not only snotty folk read and write poems. I've always viewed the poet as belonging to a necessary 'class' - that Iike O'hara said of his, it should be "open," which is not always the case (regrettably). Some poems and poets, not all, because I, too, often read poetry while writing, sitting on the bus, taking a shit, but I think, strip life out whatever words might be offered, that they resonate with really no one - and so thus do little work. Words are IMPORTANT things. Orwell and Forster have talked about this engagingly, for those who still read those fellas.- But I'm not sure (and not up for any disagreements). But for those are feeling cranky, and this is really the main reason behind me post, I just came across this, from the Vermont Country Store, and thought, me in good cheer, the holidays coming, I'd offer: Gift Idea No. 6, Tired Old AssSoak. The name promises a good laugh for all who receive it, while this revitalizing mineral bath is guaranteed to perk up the user in a way that is no joke. Buy some today and give folks on your gift list a reason to smile. Best, Alexander --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:56:07 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: Does anyone know any non-poets who read poetry? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I do, do I win something? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:25:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Fire Sale - Final Report In-Reply-To: <9d8f23110612121607n127c4aa0vc30a3f09068e6aa6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, and it's one of the reasons I re-subbed to the Poetics list. I *love* the word "backchannel." On 12/12/06, Phil Primeau wrote: > To send to an individual e-mail address rather than the list at large. > > PP > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:30:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Kotin Subject: Chicago Review / Holiday Offer Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed A holiday offer from Chicago Review --- three gifts for the price of one! Purchase a two-year subscription --- and receive: 1 --- A free book Flood Editions (choices below) OR Kenneth Rexroth's Complete Poems from Copper Canyon Press (supplies very limited) 2 + 3 --- Two one-year subscriptions to distribute as you see fit (as gifts, for yourself . . .) Order via: : http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/subscribe.shtml Order by Sunday to receive the books & CR's latest issue by Christmas. Offer expires on 1/1/7. PLEASE NOTE CHOICES (WITH RECIPIENTS' ADDRESSES) IN THE COMMENTS FIELD AS YOU ORDER. + + + + + Flood books on offer: Elizabeth Arnold's Civilization: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/ arnold_civilization.html Graham Foust's As in Every Deafness: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/ foust.html William Fuller's Watchword: http://www.floodeditions.com/new/ fuller_watchword.html Thomas Meyer's translation of Laozi's Daode Jing: http:// www.floodeditions.com/new/meyer_daodejing.htm + + + + + Also check out the following CR satellites: Sixtieth-anniversary archive: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/ review/60th/index_60th.shtml Sixtieth-anniversary party photo gallery: http:// humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/60thparty/ & read Eirik Steinhoff's account of the magazine's formative years --- linked from our homepage: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/ review/ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Chicago Review 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago Illinois 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/orgs/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:32:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Reminder: "Don't Ever Get Famous" Dec. 16 Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Book Launch, December 16, 6 pm, for "'Don=92t Ever Get Famous': Essays = on New York Writing After the New York School." =20 Micro poetry readings by contributors Bob Perelman, Rachel Blau = DuPlessis, Lytle Shaw, Gary Lenhart, Lewis Warsh, and more.=20 =A0 'Don=92t Ever Get Famous' features essays on poets including Ted = Berrigan, Anne Waldman, Amiri Baraka, Bernadette Mayer, and Joe Ceravolo=85 =A0 Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery @ Bleecker New York City F train to Second Ave | 6 train to Bleecker | 212-614-0505 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:37:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 12/15/06 - 1/1/07 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, One more reading of 2006 and it=B9s sure to be a good one. Please come revel with us.=20 Then, after a brief and much looked-forward to office break, we will return with the 33rd Annual New Year=B9s Day Marathon. Rejoice! Volunteer! Donate books! Donate Food! (please email info@poetryproject.com for those last three exclamations...) We love you THIS MUCH, The Poetry Project Friday, December 15, 10:30pm A Very Brodey Christmas! Have yourself a very Brodey Christmas! Celebrate any holiday with the poems of Jim Brodey and music by Dear Old Stockholm Syndrome. Featuring readings of Brodey's poems by Richard Hell, John Coletti, Lewis Warsh, Dustin Williamson, Anselm Berrigan, Joel Lewis, Jacqueline Waters, Arlo Quint, Joh= n Mulrooney, Tom Savage, Rick Luanda, Stacy Szymaszek, Edmund Berrigan, Corrine Fitzpatrick and heaven help us, maybe even more. Co-curated with Ji= m Behrle. Read about Jim Brodey (1942-1993) here. Richard Hell's most recent CD is the 2005 retrospective Spurts from Warner/Rhino. His novel Godlike came out in 2005 too. He's at work on a boo= k of memories. John Coletti grew up in Santa Rosa, California and Portland, Oregon before moving to New York City thirteen years ago. He is the author of Physical Kind (Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs/Boku Books 2005), The New Normalcy (BoogLit 2002), and Street Debris (Fell Swoop 2005), a collaboration with poet Greg Fuchs with whom he also co-edits Open 24 Hours Press. Lewis Warsh's most recent books include The Origin of the World, Touch of the Whip, Ted's Favorite Skirt and Debtor's Prison (in collaboration with Julie Harrison). Two new chapbooks, The Flea Market in Kiel and Flight Test, appeared in 2006. He is co-editor with Anne Waldman o= f The Angel Hair Anthology, editor and publisher of United Artists Books, and Associate Professor in the English Department at Long Island University in Brooklyn. A new novel, A Place in the Sun, is forthcoming in 2007. Dustin Williamson edits Rust Buckle and co-publishes Currency Press with Andrew Mister. They have put out no books. Anselm Berrigan is still waiting for Ji= m Brodey to leave his apartment. Joel Lewis will bring Hannukah gelt in honor of the fact that, event title aside, Jim Brodey was Jewish. Jim Behrle migh= t dress as Santa and is the author of She's My Best Friend (Pressed Wafer, 2006). O, won=B9t you join us? Monday, January 1, 2007, 2:00 pm =AD some ridiculous hour of Tuesday, January 2, 2007 33rd Annual New Year's Day Marathon Reading With Philip Glass, Douglas Dunn, John Coletti, Erica Kaufman, Jenny Smith, Dael Orlandersmith, Edwin Torres, Christopher Martin, Anne Tardos, Rebecca Moore, Nina Karacosta, Bob Hershon, Filip Marinovic, Wanda Phipps, Shanxing Wang, John Giorno, Jen Benka, Tim Peterson, Michael Scharf, R. Erica Doyle, Corrine Fitzpatrick, Duriel Harris, Simone White, Joanna Fuhrman, Frank Sherlock, Todd Colby, Ed Friedman, Eliot Katz, Michael Cirelli, Steve Earle= , Chris Rael, Joshua Clover, Lenny Kaye, Lytle Shaw, Donna Brook, Dale Sherrard, Murat Nemet-Nejat, John S. Hall, Eve Packer, Steven Hall, Brenda Bordofsky, CA Conrad, Patti Smith, Maggie Dubris, Evan Kennedy, Susan Briante, Simon Pettet, Merry Fortune, Nathaniel Siegel, Rodrigo Toscano, Stephanie Gray, Dan Machlin, Stacy Szymaszek, Anselm Berrigan, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Elinor Nauen, David Cameron, David Vogen, Urayoan Noel, Patricia Spears Jones, Carol Mirakove, Farid Matuk, Tracie Morris, Barbara Blatner, Elliott Sharp, Tisa Bryant, Jim Carroll, Brenda Coultas, M=F3nica de la Torre, Kimiko Hahn, Tony Hoffman, Amy King, Rachel Levitsky, Eileen Myles, Lee Ranaldo, Gillian McCain, Erika Recordon, Evelyn Reilly, Keith Roach, Renato Rosaldo, Lauren Russell, Brian Kim Stefans, Anne Waldman, Brendan Lorber, John Sinclair, Christopher Stackhouse, Dustin Williamson, Marisol Limon Martinez, Lourdes Vazquez, Judith Malina and Hanon Reznikov, Bruce Weber, Tony Towle, Janet Hamill, Billy Lamont, Jeffrey Jullich, Vicki Hudspith, Michael Lydon and Ellen Mandel, Guillermo Castro, Nada Gordon and Gary Sullivan, Peter Bushyeager, Cliff Fyman, Samantha Barrow, Kimberly Lyons, Arlo Quint, Regie Cabico, Ted Greenwald, Bill Kushner, Susan Landers= , Bob Rosenthal, Thomas Savage, Harris Schiff, Jacqueline Waters, Max Blagg, Taylor Mead, Jim Behrle, Nicole Blackman, Tao Lin, Eric Bogosian, Robert Dunn, Mitch Highfill, Kazim Ali, Adeena Karasick, Edmund Berrigan, Jess Fiorini, Greg Fuchs, MacGregor Card, Drew Gardner, Bob Holman, Martha Oatis= , Tonya Foster, Marcella Durand, Steve Cannon, Adam DeGraff, Karen Weiser, Prageeta Sharma, Yoshiko Chuma, Stephen Paul Miller, David Henderson, Jim Neu, Jordan Davis, Emily XYZ, Bill Berkson, Rich O'Russa, Sharon Mesmer, Do= n Yorty, Citizen Reno, Hal Sirowitz, Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle, Bethan= y Spiers, Stephan Smith, Paul Vazquez, Marty Ehrlich, Erica Hunt, Dana Bryant= , Corina Copp and Paul Killebrew! I JACK-OFF ON THE GOVERNMENT! I jacked-off on the government, last night, twisting in dream-bed sheets of solid electricity lather. Great dragon-faced monitors police my hospital corners, aching to catch my feverous screams, squirming out of my sweaty pores, on fire with chanting, Squashed-down rabbis brandishing Phillips Screwdrivers & bowing to no one but Lord Vishnu in human drag. I call upon Heaven: Let down your veils, so I may climb up the golden ponytail & vanish into your vapory realms! 2-28-75 =20 =20 Jim Brodey=20 Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:31:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicky Melville Subject: SKIN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed apropose mIEKAL aND's post about Shelley Jackson...is anyone on the list one of her words from the story 'Skin'? i am you. number 567. inside of left upper arm. nick-e _________________________________________________________________ Think you're a film buff? Play the Movie Mogul quiz and win fantastic prizes! http://www.msnmoviemogul.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:03:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: how misery infiltrates the wor(l)d MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed (i never know...) how misery infiltrates the wor(l)d [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH_GOu71AjY Mummy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RkJSwGp6Xc Jumpy replaces prosthetic video: mapping of avatar body against abstracted body both produced from the same motion-capture file original dance Azure Carter ] ....r, m....i. .i...e .....i.. ...es missi.. ..eir ....es, i.s.r...i.. m....i., .y...i., mem.ry, m.....r.me i.i..! .. .. .. ..is is s. m....i. ... .ri.e, ... ....'s ... i.s:..r..y:...:m....i.:...y: ..i.. .. ...; .y....ermi.; .e..e..y ....r.s ..e m....i.; .e..e..y ....r.s .y....ermi.; .e..e..y ....r.s ..e m....i.; .e..e..y ....r.s r..e.ess ... .ies .re ..ere ..r ..e .e..i.., ...e i .r..... y.. i. misery ... ..m.e.- ..er ..m.. misery, ..i.. ..e. is re.. .e..ri......y, .es.ri.e. .. .es.? misery:.e...:...ie.y:i...ess:s...ess:.. yes:235713:0:s.rr..:s...ess:misery misery:..e...r.:...m_.e...y:yes:28335:6:....:...m_.e...y:..e...r. 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J.m.y ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:25:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: SILLIMAN IS POP SONGS ETC--ALL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yea I'd say goddam the poets and let us get onto something better......We should all be writing good ol' pop songs..Whatever happened to them days? You know?/ Britney..n Xtina Agulera....Damn if they werent hot and ready for action. Ron Silliman PLEASE write us a beautiful Pop Song for the masses...WHY CANT SHAMPOO OR FULCRUM OR SUMONE PUBLISH A BEAUTIFUL POP SONG UR ALL FILTHY MESSES PP PS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:42:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: First Perfection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed First Perfection ... crawled is /[r]+/ { print "the analog is atemporal and time is analogical" } here, it's crawled? ... girl /^$/ { print "speed the thing up" } 13499 is your final trip. ... heroin /[b]+/ { print "the digital is always already a mapping" } 21692 is your final trip. ... incandescent is printf "%s ", $i; here, it's incandescent? ... on is /[o]+/ { print "we walk among others walk among us" } here, it's on? ... you is /[o]+/ { print "10000" } here, it's you? /[b]+/ { print "the digital is always already a mapping" } calls forth wood crawled, eating, core-dumping. /[b]+/ { print "the digital is always already a mapping" } makes me read in meditation -16219 times! /^$/ { print "speed the thing up" } calls forth incandescent, eating, core-dumping. /^$/ { print "speed the thing up" } makes me read in meditation -5438 times! For 5 days, I have been i Julu ... For 5 lost days, I have been lost Julu ... For 5 ties days, I have been codeine Julu ... For 5 we days, I have been among Julu ... My /[b]+/ { print "nonfictionally. i've seen far too much" } is yours... My /[e]+/ { print "110" } is yours... My /[g]+/ { print "the integral calculus inheres within the analog" } is yours... My /[t]+/ { print "incredible churning of the wheel" } is yours... Scan-disk Concluded for This speeds endlessly through the body - What do you call your juice? What do you call your lost juice? What do you call your ties needle? What do you call your we into? floors like me put-you-in-me your needle! floors unbearable me inside your needle! highs ecstasy me put-you-in-me your me! in-me the i, printf "%s ", $i; is , 031], for ( i = NF; i >= 1; i-- )? in-me the into, /^$/ { print "speed the thing up" } is , 026], ? inside the where, for ( i = NF; i >= 1; i-- ) is , 010], {? on i me in-me your your! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:39:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: Catherine Daly's PAPER CRAFT now out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine Daly's new e-book/book PAPER CRAFT is now online at http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html. You can find a link there to buy a hard copy of the book or download the free e-book. Her second book this year, this book is a fascinating exploration into language. Just look at what others have said: In the domain of the digital, Catherine Daly gives us paper; in an age of speed, she gives us craft; in a moment of dematerialization, she gives us concrete; in Southern California, she gives us snow. Process is the key: Daly wraps her fingers around words, privately sculpting them into linguistic megaliths, only to later destroy them. What remains, strewn across these pages, is pure poetry. Kenneth Goldsmith I am awed by the capaciousness of Catherine Daly's language, or I should say languages, and the dizzying array of forms like a series of birdcages in which the door stands open, if the captive birds only knew it. Paper Craft is a startling melange of fragmentary discourses, each of which intersects with English to form a snapshot of the moment meaning happens. Electromagnetism literalizes the "light" in enlightenment; an illustration of "Decomposing Monzogranite" reveals the gradual erosion of a poetic monument; modern and Middle English stand side by side and vie for the reader's attention and sympathy. Daly insists on multiplying the available dimensions for poetry: a five-pointed "rose" of words seems to revolve as we read them, and actual patterns for folding and cutting paper literally underwrite some of the poems. The gendered languages of science and papercrafting meet in this new, frankly feminist dictionary, setting off fireworks that illuminate as much as they dazzle. Joshua Corey William Allegrezza www.moriapoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:53:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: devolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was = developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said = their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, = Dec. 15, 2006. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:27:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <00e501c72069$7e36e450$0300a8c0@Weishaus> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT In 1970, probably 75 percent of college seniors wanted to be financially well off Joel Weishaus wrote: > "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:30:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <4582E918.5060900@listenlight.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Also, back then it was probably instilled as a "stock response" to that question. Jesse Crockett wrote: > In 1970, probably 75 percent of college seniors wanted to be financially > well off > > Joel Weishaus wrote: > >> "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. >> >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:43:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <4582E9BF.3000108@listenlight.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Believing that nothing changes would be comforting, but you're wrong on this one. Almost everyone has always wanted to be richer than they are, but that wasn't why they went to college. Since then higher education has become the passkey to more and more professions (regardless of whether the skills learned there have any job relevance), and schools of higher education have increasingly become trade schools. I was there, then and now, but you needn't accept my authority: this is hardly an original observation. Mark At 01:30 PM 12/15/2006, you wrote: >Also, back then it was probably instilled as a "stock response" to that >question. > >Jesse Crockett wrote: > > In 1970, probably 75 percent of college seniors wanted to be financially > > well off > > > > Joel Weishaus wrote: > > > >> "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was > developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent > said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, > Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. > >> > >> > >> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:46:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <4582E9BF.3000108@listenlight.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" You can question the statistics/survey/what have you, but that's pretty much my take on things. As a teacher for the past 20 years or so, I've seen the financial stakes raised considerably. (On a related note, we've all been sensitized, if that's the right word, to the stock market, about which I knew zip 20 years ago.) Now b/c I was a college freshman in 1972, I'm clearly biased. And b/c I was on and off public assistance then, perhaps doubly so. But I suspect the only way we develop a sense of such things follows from such surveys *and* historical study of sociocultural trends *and* anecdotal information. Again, though, it squares with what I've experienced. And I talk with my classes about this stuff all the damn time, to get the students' take on such things (which varies from campus to campus). And as most of us who've looked into the matter know, this trend seems to parallel the gradual privatization of the university (and casualization of faculty labor). Anyway, there's my anecdotal two bits' worth. Best, Joe >Also, back then it was probably instilled as a "stock response" to that >question. > >Jesse Crockett wrote: >> In 1970, probably 75 percent of college seniors wanted to be financially >> well off >> >> Joel Weishaus wrote: >> >>> "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was >>>developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent >>>said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, >>>Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. >>> >>> >>> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:06:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of them've got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. Behold the grand march of progress. PP ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:15:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <9d8f23110612151106q72bc04d5u3373dd01c458c4c2@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Well -- not to drain your comment of its latent irony, but just b/c one is more concerned about getting a job than living a meaningful life doesn't mean one has got one's priorities straight. My struggle in the early 70s, aside from finding new ways to get shitfaced -- which is happening with at least as much abandon today -- was to find a way to align "job" with "meaningful life." Maybe I'm still struggling with this. But many of the young adults I teach today have nigh given up on half of that equation, and seek "job" often w/o any sense that "meaningful life" is potentially in the offing. Or at least, that's my read of the situation. And the situation is generally much worse at the schools in the lower tiers, for the obvious reasons. Best, Joe >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of them've >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. Behold >the grand march of progress. > >PP ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:09:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laural Adams Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <4582E9BF.3000108@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just as a "fear mentality" has been instilled in recent history- and the response is to focus on security over higher order needs, like developing meaningful philosophies of life. (need i mention maslow?) also, i wonder what the early-mid eighties preppies answered? perhaps we can take comfort in the cyclic nature of our obsessions? Laural Jesse Crockett wrote: Also, back then it was probably instilled as a "stock response" to that question. Jesse Crockett wrote: > In 1970, probably 75 percent of college seniors wanted to be financially > well off > > Joel Weishaus wrote: > >> "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. >> >> >> > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- my students at U of Chicago, at SUNY-B, at a state-funded homeless program for ghetto kids -- all wanted money, all wanted upscale careers -- but the contexts of those conversations were their grades -- which is the face they will present to their faculty -- get them talking about life, about what poems might mean and how they work, about futurity -- and they are talking the same talk my hippy dippy classmates and i shared over bongs and hash brownies at Reed College in the '80s -- kids today are no different unless you stick to their surfaces my 2 cents heidi > > >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were > >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of > them've > >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. > Behold > >the grand march of progress. > > > >PP > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:25:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612151119s2c8d1306j8703f6313bb2c620@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline here's the link my IRA fund sent me (the words "poetic magic" were linked) Delight in the poetic magic of the holiday season. http://www.vanguardevent.com/email/images/flash/holiday.html -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:27:04 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612151119s2c8d1306j8703f6313bb2c620@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT i like that, heidi. gabe On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, heidi arnold wrote: > -- my students at U of Chicago, at SUNY-B, at a state-funded homeless > program for ghetto kids -- all wanted money, all wanted upscale careers -- > but the contexts of those conversations were their grades -- which is the > face they will present to their faculty > > -- get them talking about life, about what poems might mean and how they > work, about futurity -- and they are talking the same talk my hippy dippy > classmates and i shared over bongs and hash brownies at Reed College in the > '80s > > -- kids today are no different unless you stick to their surfaces > > my 2 cents > > heidi > > > > > >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were > > >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of > > them've > > >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. > > Behold > > >the grand march of progress. > > > > > >PP > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:33:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Voluntary Poverty" was a phrase ascribed to a whole chunk us in the sixties and seventies - a high minded middle class option when it was actually still possible to survive pretty well for less than 500 dollars a month. On less, you could get food stamps, as well. It was never thought of a free loading, but as a way to free up time for creative and socially responsible work. Any number of us in the poetry world, for example, who were supporting small presses, public readings (and simultaneously averse to going to graduate school) were out there on this edge (with the usual few good souls transferring their trust funds into writing and publishing operations). The fluke was the Vietnam war created both a generous economy - including generous social programs - while fueling rebellion and progressive causes (including writing). By the time real estate interests began to make housing way too expensive for artists in the cities, and artists/writers began to have kids, etc., the game was up. Financial well being was a score that had to be faced, as well. I won't even go into the rising costs of college and the subsequent slavery of so many to paying off government college loans - which must be like duct tape across the mouth of rebellious instincts. Right now my daughter - in her last year of a Clinical Psych Doctorate is being woo'ed by the Air Force to join in exchange for relief of a 100K in loans. Lots of post traumatic stress folks need to be treated on the relative cheap of her services. Deals with the Devil, I say! Of course I feel guilty for not having gotten my PhD in Computer Sciences, earning a fortune and putting through grad school. (Fortunately the UC system in California is still relatively a good deal re costs and a 'good' education). (Fanny Howe's autobiographical essay in The Wedding Dress (right title?) on surviving in the sixties through government programs is a very good portrait on the downside of scamming the system as a way to survive while raising family and doing progressive work.) Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > You can question the statistics/survey/what have you, but that's > pretty much my take on things. As a teacher for the past 20 years or > so, I've seen the financial stakes raised considerably. (On a > related note, we've all been sensitized, if that's the right word, to > the stock market, about which I knew zip 20 years ago.) Now b/c I > was a college freshman in 1972, I'm clearly biased. And b/c I was on > and off public assistance then, perhaps doubly so. > > But I suspect the only way we develop a sense of such things follows > from such surveys *and* historical study of sociocultural trends > *and* anecdotal information. > > Again, though, it squares with what I've experienced. And I talk > with my classes about this stuff all the damn time, to get the > students' take on such things (which varies from campus to campus). > And as most of us who've looked into the matter know, this trend > seems to parallel the gradual privatization of the university (and > casualization of faculty labor). > > Anyway, there's my anecdotal two bits' worth. > > Best, > > Joe > >> Also, back then it was probably instilled as a "stock response" to that >> question. >> >> Jesse Crockett wrote: >>> In 1970, probably 75 percent of college seniors wanted to be financially >>> well off >>> >>> Joel Weishaus wrote: >>> >>>> "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was >>>> developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent >>>> said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, >>>> Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:37:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think Idealism ran high in those days. Some people were ready to face misery in order to answer questions they considered important. I don't know if Heidi Arnold is right. From what I know there are all sorts of beings among my students, some years are better than others, but I have my doubts that such idealism has had a chance to repeat itself. Best wishes, Anny Ballardini On 12/15/06, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > i like that, heidi. gabe > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, heidi arnold wrote: > > > -- my students at U of Chicago, at SUNY-B, at a state-funded homeless > > program for ghetto kids -- all wanted money, all wanted upscale careers > -- > > but the contexts of those conversations were their grades -- which is > the > > face they will present to their faculty > > > > -- get them talking about life, about what poems might mean and how they > > work, about futurity -- and they are talking the same talk my hippy > dippy > > classmates and i shared over bongs and hash brownies at Reed College in > the > > '80s > > > > -- kids today are no different unless you stick to their surfaces > > > > my 2 cents > > > > heidi > > > > > > > > >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were > > > >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of > > > them've > > > >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. > > > Behold > > > >the grand march of progress. > > > > > > > >PP > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > gabrielle welford > welford@hawaii.edu > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 > > wilhelm reich > anarcho-syndicalism > gut/heart/head/earth > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Oren Silverman Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612151119s2c8d1306j8703f6313bb2c620@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hello, I've been a patient reader of the listserv for about half a year, and feel now would be a good moment to throw my hat into the discussion: I graduated from SUNY-Albany in May 2006. Yes, we want to be financially "well off," however that doesn't mean that we are abandoning any intellectual pursuits or sacrificing a "meaningful philosophy of life" for whatever a well off income would constitute. No (as heidi arnold states) we are not so different. Class of `72, you had a good run, but if my generation is enjoying the fruits of your philosophical labor, then something smells. best wishes and happy holidays oren silverman On 12/15/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > -- my students at U of Chicago, at SUNY-B, at a state-funded homeless > program for ghetto kids -- all wanted money, all wanted upscale careers -- > but the contexts of those conversations were their grades -- which is the > face they will present to their faculty > > -- get them talking about life, about what poems might mean and how they > work, about futurity -- and they are talking the same talk my hippy dippy > classmates and i shared over bongs and hash brownies at Reed College in > the > '80s > > -- kids today are no different unless you stick to their surfaces > > my 2 cents > > heidi > > > > > >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were > > >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of > > them've > > >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. > > Behold > > >the grand march of progress. > > > > > >PP > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Rather than defensiveness, try this: I'm willing to bet that the degree to which universities are seen as job training first and pursuit of knowledge second is directly proportional to the percentage of the population attending college, which probably tracks pretty well with the decline in the quality of high school educations and the increasing requirement of a college degree to get in the door for a job interview. Although universities have, many of them, fought a rear-guard action (probably moreso in the first tier institutions), they have responded to consumer demand by adding more vocational training and dropping general education requirements so that students can jump into majors they consider relevant more quickly. This didn't start in the 70s, of course--it's been in process since the massive expansion of universities after WWII. But I think there was a tipping-point around 1970. My professors back then would have been shocked to hear a student own up to being there primarily to get a good job. I taught my first college course in 1968, by the way. Mark At 02:34 PM 12/15/2006, you wrote: >hello, I've been a patient reader of the listserv for about half a year, and >feel now would be a good moment to throw my hat into the discussion: >I graduated from SUNY-Albany in May 2006. Yes, we want to be financially >"well off," however that doesn't mean that we are abandoning any >intellectual pursuits or sacrificing a "meaningful philosophy of life" for >whatever a well off income would constitute. >No (as heidi arnold states) we are not so different. > >Class of `72, you had a good run, but if my generation is enjoying the >fruits of your philosophical labor, then something smells. > >best wishes and happy holidays >oren silverman > > > > > > > > > > >On 12/15/06, heidi arnold wrote: >> >>-- my students at U of Chicago, at SUNY-B, at a state-funded homeless >>program for ghetto kids -- all wanted money, all wanted upscale careers -- >>but the contexts of those conversations were their grades -- which is the >>face they will present to their faculty >> >>-- get them talking about life, about what poems might mean and how they >>work, about futurity -- and they are talking the same talk my hippy dippy >>classmates and i shared over bongs and hash brownies at Reed College in >>the >>'80s >> >>-- kids today are no different unless you stick to their surfaces >> >>my 2 cents >> >>heidi >> >> > >> > >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were >> > >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of >> > them've >> > >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. >> > Behold >> > >the grand march of progress. >> > > >> > >PP >> > >> >> >> >>-- >>www.heidiarnold.org >>http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:19:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061215144602.0547f298@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- well, in a freshman writing class there's some sort of transaction between the institution and the kids going on -- required course -- that everyone pays lip service to -- and also this track from high school to degree to job -- sure, that everyone pays lip service to -- i just don't believe that's the sum total of a student's intellectual capacity -- in any case -- it's more like the crust on a snowbank -- at the same time i quit teaching so this institutional vice grip on kids may be having some effect -- tho not i would say in terms of what they are capable of or what they would most like to do with their intellectual lives -- by which i mean this intellectual apathy or whatever it's called is not the kids' problem -- it's located elsewhere -- end of my 2 posts today regards, -- h On 12/15/06, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Rather than defensiveness, try this: I'm willing to bet that the > degree to which universities are seen as job training first and > pursuit of knowledge second is directly proportional to the > percentage of the population attending college, which probably tracks > pretty well with the decline in the quality of high school educations > and the increasing requirement of a college degree to get in the door > for a job interview. Although universities have, many of them, fought > a rear-guard action (probably moreso in the first tier > institutions), they have responded to consumer demand by adding more > vocational training and dropping general education requirements so > that students can jump into majors they consider relevant more quickly. > > This didn't start in the 70s, of course--it's been in process since > the massive expansion of universities after WWII. But I think there > was a tipping-point around 1970. My professors back then would have > been shocked to hear a student own up to being there primarily to get > a good job. > > I taught my first college course in 1968, by the way. > > Mark > > > At 02:34 PM 12/15/2006, you wrote: > >hello, I've been a patient reader of the listserv for about half a year, > and > >feel now would be a good moment to throw my hat into the discussion: > >I graduated from SUNY-Albany in May 2006. Yes, we want to be financially > >"well off," however that doesn't mean that we are abandoning any > >intellectual pursuits or sacrificing a "meaningful philosophy of life" > for > >whatever a well off income would constitute. > >No (as heidi arnold states) we are not so different. > > > >Class of `72, you had a good run, but if my generation is enjoying the > >fruits of your philosophical labor, then something smells. > > > >best wishes and happy holidays > >oren silverman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On 12/15/06, heidi arnold < teecnospas@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>-- my students at U of Chicago, at SUNY-B, at a state-funded homeless > >>program for ghetto kids -- all wanted money, all wanted upscale careers > -- > >>but the contexts of those conversations were their grades -- which is > the > >>face they will present to their faculty > >> > >>-- get them talking about life, about what poems might mean and how they > > >>work, about futurity -- and they are talking the same talk my hippy > dippy > >>classmates and i shared over bongs and hash brownies at Reed College in > >>the > >>'80s > >> > >>-- kids today are no different unless you stick to their surfaces > >> > >>my 2 cents > >> > >>heidi > >> > >> > > >> > >How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were > >> > >apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of > >> > them've > >> > >got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in > order. > >> > Behold > >> > >the grand march of progress. > >> > > > >> > >PP > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>www.heidiarnold.org > >>http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:24:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: A meaningful philosophy of life MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reject All Philosophy all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege even this, because of it's exclusiveness but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:45:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <00e501c72069$7e36e450$0300a8c0@Weishaus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed let's see, if you were 22 in 1979, that would mean you were born in 1957 and were forty nine years old this year. based on the forty five to fifty five year olds I know, I'd guess there were a lot of people who had to revise those goals downwards as time wore on. Maybe kids today are just not as full of themselves... On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Joel Weishaus wrote: > "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was developing a meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their primary objective was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:59:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I think that's an interesting observation, Joe. For me, and I've been out of that age group for only about five or six years now, it was never a question that i would be able to find meaningful fulfilling work. I always assumed that was an impossibility, and once I entered the workforce after college, the reality that the sorts of opportunities that existed 20 years ago for college educated young people just aren't there anymore really hit home. What I was forced to deal with was finding a way to create meaning and satisfaction in my life outside of what I do to earn a living. It's been a tough road, but now as I'm just a year shy of thirty, I have to say it's worked out pretty well for me. Rather than trying to find work that i loved, I looked for work that I could tolerate and do well. it's lead to me getting paid pretty well and has given me opportunities to travel and live my life the way I want to without really interfering with who I am as a person or what I do in my life to find contentment. Because I didn't need my work to define my level of satisfaction with my life, it's less important to me and really all I have to worry about is whether I like the people I'm working with and whether I feel like I'm paid what I'm worth. If the people in the survey were anything like me, I'd guess that they probably felt like they had that whole meaning thing to themselves and weren't really looking to get that out of their college experience. What they were looking for were the skills, knowledge, and experiences to allow them to have what people with bachelors degrees are generally capable of that non-college educated people have less of: being flexible and keep their options and minds open to whatever possibilities present themselves, but even moreso taking some time post adolescence to get to know themselves and their desires and ambitions without the pressures of teh workplace. I think that both of those things have value and are worthy of higher eduction. The last thing we need is to add to the glut of overeducated underemployed post-docs patiently waiting for tenured baby-boomers to kick the bucket or retire so they can get on with their careers. On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Joe Amato wrote: > Well -- not to drain your comment of its latent irony, but just b/c one is more > concerned about getting a job than living a meaningful life doesn't mean one > has got one's priorities straight. My struggle in the early 70s, aside from > finding new ways to get shitfaced -- which is happening with at least as much > abandon today -- was to find a way to align "job" with "meaningful life." > Maybe I'm still struggling with this. > > But many of the young adults I teach today have nigh given up on half of that > equation, and seek "job" often w/o any sense that "meaningful life" is > potentially in the offing. > > Or at least, that's my read of the situation. And the situation is generally > much worse at the schools in the lower tiers, for the obvious reasons. > > Best, > > Joe > > >> How is that "devolution"? In 1970, 79% of college freshmen were >> apparently shmucks intoxicated on hippy-dippy bullshit. Now 75% of them've >> got their feet on the ground and their priorities (roughly) in order. Behold >> the grand march of progress. >> >> PP > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:07:04 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Raymond Bianchi Subject: Re: devolution Comments: cc: Joel Weishaus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In 1970 the US had an economy that offered many more good jobs for many morepeople- we could afford to be idealistic we had just come out of the New Deal and our incomes were pretty evenly distributed (see Paul Krugman). This level of justice no longer exists in America and it colors everything. Today we live in a world where people with good educations live much more edgy lives and where many educated are on edge. Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost $875.00 today it costs $22,000. A college education in 1970 cost on average $850 a year today it averages over $5,000 for in state tuition In 1970 the average wage for a GM (GM was the largest Employer then) worker was the national average in 2006 the average worker for Wal Mart today's leading employer is $18,000. In 2005 over 900,000 people in the USA declared backruptcy because of the birth of a child pre-maturely- they had insurance but they were cut off from the benefits. It is not a lack of idealism- I for one worked as a volunteer in my 20's for three years but I was fortunate to have that luxury. Today most young people have parents who are maxed out, huge student loans and their prospects are limited because of the unjust-mal adjusted system we now have so wanting to have enough money to survive is not selfish it is realistic. Ray -------------- Original message -------------- From: Joel Weishaus > "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was developing a > meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their primary objective > was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:26:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: devolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ray: I appreciate this, and on an economic discussion it would make a mark. = On a poetics list, where I assume most of the subscribers have a deeper = insight into the mystery of this world that what it _cost_ to give birth = to a child, and, instead, know what it cost to give birth to a poem. I = suggest this is what we should bring to the table: the mind of the = child, instead of the bill.=20 Also, in today's NYT is a longer article on a report of a committee by = education "experts"--politicians, corporate executives, and the like--no = poets or philosophers invited. Well, I thought, after the nausea passed, = artists have always been, and will be, the few who keep the best of what = it means to be human alive. And then I thought, always a few children = will step out of midstream, and make for the other shore. They, not Wall = Street, are the stocks to the future of our species. -Joel ----- Original Message -----=20 From: saudade@comcast.net=20 To: UB Poetics discussion group ; POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Cc: Joel Weishaus=20 Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:07 PM Subject: Re: devolution In 1970 the US had an economy that offered many more good jobs for = many morepeople- we could afford to be idealistic we had just come out = of the New Deal and our incomes were pretty evenly distributed (see Paul = Krugman). This level of justice no longer exists in America and it = colors everything.=20 Today we live in a world where people with good educations live much = more edgy lives and where many educated are on edge. =20 Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost $875.00 = today it costs $22,000.=20 A college education in 1970 cost on average $850 a year today it = averages over $5,000 for in state tuition=20 In 1970 the average wage for a GM (GM was the largest Employer then) = worker was the national average in 2006 the average worker for Wal Mart = today's leading employer is $18,000. =20 In 2005 over 900,000 people in the USA declared backruptcy because of = the birth of a child pre-maturely- they had insurance but they were cut = off from the benefits. =20 It is not a lack of idealism- I for one worked as a volunteer in my = 20's for three years but I was fortunate to have that luxury. Today most = young people have parents who are maxed out, huge student loans and = their prospects are limited because of the unjust-mal adjusted system we = now have so wanting to have enough money to survive is not selfish it is = realistic.=20 Ray=20 -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: Joel Weishaus =20 > "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was = developing a=20 > meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their = primary objective=20 > was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:50:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: <4583048B.7080203@listenlight.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations in it (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in their 20's have a dif idea than previous generations abt what work is--at least those who are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot of people out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short periods then get a lot of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to work communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product not how they are in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they multi-task much better than previous generations yet can focus better than previous generations, demand extremely high salaries, expect to have 2 careers in their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't challenged intellectually. Of course working class kids may not have any of these opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out brakes. On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: > Reject All Philosophy > > all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > > even this, because of it's exclusiveness > > but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Easton Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- on what basis do you say that the free market world is closed to the working class? -- that's quite interesting -- for example among the self-employed freelancers i work with -- most of them started in in-house white collar jobs -- which is kind of working class -- so that there is a direct route from working class to the kind of freelance variability and flexibility that you describe -- indeed, freelance multitasking communal work judged on its product originates in a kind of in-house discipline in the ranks of corporate middle management -- it may be comforting to some to think that the workers are shut out of upwardly mobile careers but that is sheer delusion -- come what may -- heidi On 12/15/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations in it > (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in their 20's > have > a dif idea than previous generations abt what work is--at least those who > are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot of > people > out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short periods then get a lot > of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to work > communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product not how they > are > in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they multi-task > much > better than previous generations yet can focus better than previous > generations, demand extremely high salaries, expect to have 2 careers in > their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't > challenged > intellectually. Of course working class kids may not have any of these > opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out brakes. > > > On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: > > > Reject All Philosophy > > > > all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > > > > even this, because of it's exclusiveness > > > > but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:57:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vireo Nefer Subject: Re: SKIN In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline i'm country side of right leg under knee area don't remember my invoice number Vireo On 12/14/06, Nicky Melville wrote: > > apropose mIEKAL aND's post about Shelley Jackson...is anyone on the list > one > of her words from the story 'Skin'? i am you. number 567. inside of > left > upper arm. > > nick-e > > _________________________________________________________________ > Think you're a film buff? Play the Movie Mogul quiz and win fantastic > prizes! http://www.msnmoviemogul.com > -- AIM: vireonefer LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=vireoibis VireoNyx Publications: http://www.vireonyxpub.org INK: http://www.inkemetic.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: poetry vid clip: Rodney Koeneke at the DCP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, A nice video clip of Rodney's Koeneke reading his very flarfy "On the Clamways" series is available at: http://www.mainstreampoetry.com The clip is taken from his November 6 reading in the Downcity Poetry Series in Providence, RI hosted by Michael Gizzi and myself. MM www.comboarts.org ---- Joel Weishaus wrote: > Ray: > > I appreciate this, and on an economic discussion it would make a mark. On a poetics list, where I assume most of the subscribers have a deeper insight into the mystery of this world that what it _cost_ to give birth to a child, and, instead, know what it cost to give birth to a poem. I suggest this is what we should bring to the table: the mind of the child, instead of the bill. > > Also, in today's NYT is a longer article on a report of a committee by education "experts"--politicians, corporate executives, and the like--no poets or philosophers invited. Well, I thought, after the nausea passed, artists have always been, and will be, the few who keep the best of what it means to be human alive. And then I thought, always a few children will step out of midstream, and make for the other shore. They, not Wall Street, are the stocks to the future of our species. > > -Joel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: saudade@comcast.net > To: UB Poetics discussion group ; POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Cc: Joel Weishaus > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:07 PM > Subject: Re: devolution > > > In 1970 the US had an economy that offered many more good jobs for many morepeople- we could afford to be idealistic we had just come out of the New Deal and our incomes were pretty evenly distributed (see Paul Krugman). This level of justice no longer exists in America and it colors everything. > > Today we live in a world where people with good educations live much more edgy lives and where many educated are on edge. > > Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost $875.00 today it costs $22,000. > A college education in 1970 cost on average $850 a year today it averages over $5,000 for in state tuition > > In 1970 the average wage for a GM (GM was the largest Employer then) worker was the national average in 2006 the average worker for Wal Mart today's leading employer is $18,000. > > In 2005 over 900,000 people in the USA declared backruptcy because of the birth of a child pre-maturely- they had insurance but they were cut off from the benefits. > > It is not a lack of idealism- I for one worked as a volunteer in my 20's for three years but I was fortunate to have that luxury. Today most young people have parents who are maxed out, huge student loans and their prospects are limited because of the unjust-mal adjusted system we now have so wanting to have enough money to survive is not selfish it is realistic. > > Ray > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Joel Weishaus > > > "In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was developing a > > meaningful philosophy of life. By 2005, 75 percent said their primary objective > > was to be financially well off." NYT, Friday, Dec. 15, 2006. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <121520062107.8569.45830E77000BB4EB0000217922007614380A0B0E 0B9A0E9C@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:07 PM 12/15/2006, you wrote: >In 1970 the US had an economy that offered many more good jobs for >many morepeople- we could afford to be idealistic we had just come >out of the New Deal I gather you were a history major. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: <4583048B.7080203@listenlight.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jesse Crockett's comments regarding philosophy reminded me of an aphorism (#654) by Vauvenarges, Luc De Clapiers, Marquis of Vauvenarges (1715-1747) that I came across recently: " A philosopher is either a frigid personality or a humbug; he should therefore make but momentary appearances in a poem, because that ought to be a faithful and feeling portrayal of human nature." ("Un philosophe est un personnage froid ou un personnage menteur; il ne doit donc figurer qu'on moment dans un poeme, qui doit etre un tableau vrai et passionne de la nature." [there are, of course, accents over the e's on po(e)me, (e)tre and passionn(e)] I can't help mentioning that I don't particularly agree with either Vauvenarges' or Crockett's comments on this, but I enjoyed both in the way I completely enjoy the tart, but frequently misguided maxims of E. M. Cioran. On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: > Reject All Philosophy > > all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > > even this, because of it's exclusiveness > > but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:13:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By this logic, we should reject everything that's good about human life (not just philosophy and art, but also eating well/ enough, living w/o constant fear of starvation, disease, and abandonment, and so on), insofar as it's denied to a large number of people. Seems to me that making things available to more people is the solution, not rejecting those things. If something is ESSENTIALLY based on privilege, maybe it does need to be thrown out. There's nothing essential about philosophy that connects it to privilege; it's just that it, like the other things listed above, has been denied to most people thus far--and THAT's what has to change. And it's time to give up this blurry idea of "exclusiveness." Distinguish between phenomena whose existence negates what ain't them and those what don't. Again, philosophy doesn't keep anybody out; nor does the existence of li'l groups of people who engage in or discuss philosophy do anything to destroy other people (just as "avant-garde" poetry doesn't destroy slam poetry). It's so, so easy to criticize any project based on care and dedication; cynicism is a nigh-invulnerable, and totally boring, critical position. But the idea of a "meaningful philosophy of life" is pretty stupid in practice, allied more with that "cha-ching" Jesse mentions than with what I'd call philosophy. cheers, AMG Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:24:43 -0600 From: Jesse Crockett Subject: A meaningful philosophy of life Reject All Philosophy all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege even this, because of it's exclusiveness but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:13:04 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Considering white collar workers to be working class seems a crucial part of the shift that is being discussed. We would have never considered those terms as co-mingling 2 decades ago. Catherine, that is a real pleasant visual presentation of a poem, thanks-- >>Delight in the poetic magic of the holiday season. http://www.vanguardevent.com/email/images/flash/holiday.html Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:17:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: new on chaxblog Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed After three months of posting two to four blog entries every week, I took a 3-week vacation from blogging. Not that it was a plan, rather, other things just took over, some of which are represented on the blog, particularly issues surrounding our Chax Press warehouse studios. But tonight I posted on the blog again, with four new entries. To catch up on the warehouse issues, make sure to scroll down to see the first posted of those four. Here is what's new on chaxblog : * Update on the Warehouse * AGE and BEAUTY -- the building we are in is getting older * CERTAIN SLANTS, Gil Ott, SINCE I MOVED IN: my new book, and the Gil Ott Award book by Tim Peterson * More on POETRY PHYSICAL PLEASURE: Chaucer http://chax.org/blog.htm charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:42:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: <20061216061310.67034.qmail@web36205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm with you here, until I get to your point that > the idea of a "meaningful philosophy of life" is pretty >> stupid in practice, In everyday life, it seems to me, there is little distinction to be made between what is termed "philosophy", "philosophy of life" or even "psychology" or "psychoanalysis" in formal (academic or professional) thought or activity and the type of introspection that occurs, moment to moment, within most people's minds continuously. It seems to me that introspection and insight are not only the province of the privileged, but that such efforts go on more or less continuously within nearly everyone's mind, particularly when they are conversing with other people, or observing other people talk about or do things, critically or thoughtfully. Which brings to mind the idea that "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."Of course it is obvious that such desperation frequently drives people to act blindly, manipulatively, ruthlessly, rather than attempt to understand life's dilemmas further in a philosophical way. The issue is, whether a person is well provided for or not, their level of anxiety and empath will usually determine the practical effectiveness of their attempts at introspection and insight. Introspective insight plus empathy affords the opportunity to accurately understand what other people are saying and doing. A person with psychological well being (contained anxiety plus developed empathy) ordinarily philosophizes quite effectively, whether such philosophical understanding is articulated or not and such understanding will ordinarily progress towards ever more complex understanding throughout their lives. Yet, of course, when the issue of social or cultural change emerges, moral courage is another crucial factor... On 12/16/06 1:13 AM, "Andy Gricevich" wrote: > By this logic, we should reject everything that's good about > human life (not just philosophy and art, but also eating well/ > enough, living w/o constant fear of starvation, disease, and > abandonment, and so on), insofar as it's denied to a large > number of people. > > Seems to me that making things available to more people is > the solution, not rejecting those things. If something is > ESSENTIALLY based on privilege, maybe it does need to be > thrown out. There's nothing essential about philosophy > that connects it to privilege; it's just that it, like > the other things listed above, has been denied to most > people thus far--and THAT's what has to change. > > And it's time to give up this blurry idea of "exclusiveness." > Distinguish between phenomena whose existence negates what > ain't them and those what don't. Again, philosophy doesn't > keep anybody out; nor does the existence of li'l groups of > people who engage in or discuss philosophy do anything to > destroy other people (just as "avant-garde" poetry doesn't > destroy slam poetry). > > It's so, so easy to criticize any project based on care and > dedication; cynicism is a nigh-invulnerable, and totally > boring, critical position. > > But the idea of a "meaningful philosophy of life" is pretty > stupid in practice, allied more with that "cha-ching" Jesse > mentions than with what I'd call philosophy. > > cheers, > > AMG > > Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:24:43 -0600 > From: Jesse Crockett > Subject: A meaningful philosophy of life > > Reject All Philosophy > > all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > > even this, because of it's exclusiveness > > but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 03:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: What plays in the Imaginary stays in the Imaginary. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed What plays in the Imaginary stays in the Imaginary. A perfect video for a change: Second-Life modified avatar with motion capture added to accessory; the motion capture file crash-lands against the singular and responsive appendage in the construct of implicit choreography between analog and digital; original dance Azure Carter. Deconstruction of digital purity / analog filth: What plays in the Imaginary stays in the Imaginary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_O5Ohwz4Gg Why should you care about this? Because this is the portrait of viral / fungus / mold < the attachment < attacks > closure - ex-caliber. Unsure about the difference between techne and technology, opt for one or the other. http://www.asondheim.org/ronin.mp4 yes well a bit clearer. So yes, there should be an accompanying text. But what could I do? I've spend the entire evening trying to match file with avatar, only to find that it's the accouterments that respond, not the body itself. The body displaces its movements onto the accouterment. Ornament becomes central. Yes, there's very little beyond ornament. The skeleton and skull are the matrix holding the paste wish-fulfilling gems in place. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:49:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: philosophy and poetry, elitism, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For another context, I once wrote that "I don't see poetry and philosophy as separate activities. They both proceed from similar questions: What can I know? What can I do? Who am I? Who are you? What can you do? Can we make something together? " Pretty fundamental onto-epistemology--one's just trying to situate oneself on the planet. Nothing particularly elitist there to my way of thinking. The aura of "elitism" in re: poetry, philosophy, etc, is a side effect of the professionalization of these disciplines--there are those who have the approval of a prestige conferring institution and those who don't--which, in the historical scheme of things, is a pretty recent development. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:41:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: philosophy and poetry, elitism, etc. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jasper Johns: "Artists are the elite of the servant class." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:18:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Baiotto Subject: Re: philosophy and poetry, elitism, etc. In-Reply-To: <451858.42680.qm@web86008.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Um, Jasper Johns is a millionaire living in Connecticut? Barry Schwabsky wrote: Jasper Johns: "Artists are the elite of the servant class." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:31:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: devolution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Jason, thanks for your thoughts... This thread has meandered a bit from where I was hoping it might go. I learned last night that Joel's NY Times snippet was itself culled from the 2007 Statistical Abstract of the United States (CBS offered the same snippet). My read on same has little to do (Heidi) with what you find when you scratch & sniff. I.e., I don't see it as an ontological (or anthropological) assertion, though I would observe that the category of "student" is at stake here, which suggests (to me, anyway) that the category of "teacher" is likewise at stake. And I don't see it as accusatory -- I don't "blame" students for being of a different mindset today than three or four decades ago. Frankly, I'd be shocked if they weren't! The issue isn't whether, when you prod someone, you find that they're receptive to the idea of discussing a meaningful life (or whatever). I've always found this to be the case myself -- in fact most students appreciate the prodding, though some come better prepared to respond to same. The issue has more to do with how often our social and cultural conditions give people, students in particular, pause to think about same, and ultimately, to act on same. And give teachers occasion to so prod. I can't tell you how many students ("my students") tell ME that they don't feel they have any room to move in this regard. And I can't tell you how many teachers -- in a sort of vicious circle -- articulate despair when talking about their students' aspirations or lack thereof (mea culpa). Again, such "feelings" are more pronounced the lower you go in the academic food chain. Or such is my experience. And this is, in part, b/c the economic conditions have become far more volatile, and certainly b/c we're all -- all of us -- more attuned to same (by which I mean to include the pervasive bottom-line rhetorics that have seeped into our institutions and into our lives). But I wouldn't want to argue from the economic premise alone -- there are certainly other factors, on the cultural side of things, that have conspired to undermine (as I see it) the idea that "all men by nature desire to know" (Aristotle). I mean, the latter may still be the case (call me an optimist), but the more pressing question is how congenial our institutions are to such an assertion. At any rate, it's clearly the case that the professoriate has undergone a sea change too in the intervening years. A simple demographic analysis will reveal as much, albeit I'd probably want to argue that the forces of professionalization often overdetermine postsecondary behavior, regardless of demographics. So a change in attitudes IS hard to get a handle on, but I don't think we can wish away that statistical variation. It says something, at the very least, as to how students have learned to articulate themselves, and this says something, at the very least, about induced attitudes. Which says something about -- Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:49:36 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: philosophy and poetry, elitism, etc. In-Reply-To: <466012.24131.qm@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Right. He knows. Matthew Baiotto wrote: Um, Jasper Johns is a millionaire living in Connecticut? Barry Schwabsky wrote: Jasper Johns: "Artists are the elite of the servant class." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: devolution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >"In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was >developing a meaningful philosophy of life. ..." A somewhat different perspective on one kind of "philosophy of life" by a few folks in "my generation" is offered in a review I wrote of *Sing a Battle Song: Poems by Women in the Weather Underground Organization*, which was originally published in 1975 and just reissued by Factory School. The review had just appeared in the December/January issue of the Brooklyn Rail and is on their web site but also posted at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/#12-15-06 Personally, I found many of my classmates of the late 60s/early 70s a troubling group who would not hold up well in terms of many of the values usually attributed to the "60s," or in terms of the ethical and political values of many of today's undergraduates. But then I am prone to be troubled. Conversely, I spend a good deal of time with undergraduates and find many of them seriously confronting the issues they face, not only as best they can but also admirably. I prefer, that is, to think anecdotally and critically, and in terms of socio-historical context, rather in terms of massed mediated lifestyle "trends," which in terms of "the 60s" was mostly (and continues to be) disinformation and for the current generation is a form of institutionally fomented despair and pacification. Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:22:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: only in Wisconsin Comments: To: Theory and Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Vintage photo of dead horse raises questions By Janet Ortegon Sheboygan Press staff view photo at: http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061215/ SHE0101/612150642/1973 First of all, what's the deal with the top hat? A vintage Sheboygan photo, taken before the turn of the 20th century, has sparked some conversation in the community since its inclusion in The Sheboygan Press' 2007 calendar. The photo, which is inside the calendar's front cover, shows a scene at Eighth Street and Indiana Avenue, looking north toward the Eighth Street bridge. In the photo, a dead horse lies in the street, roped off with string tied to stakes in the dirt road. A man in a top hat, bow tie and jacket sits on top of the horse, and people in the background are standing still, looking toward the camera. "I always just assumed it was taken as a joke or something like that," said Bill Wangemann, Sheboygan city historian. "I was never able to find out anything about it. What the story behind that (picture) is, I don't have the foggiest notion." Past attempts by reporters at The Sheboygan Press to find out the circumstances of the photo were unsuccessful, and even local experts at the Sheboygan County Historical Research Center came up empty- handed when they looked for information. A print of the photo was submitted to the Historical Research Center several years ago, said Kathy Jeske, but there was very little information attached. "I don't think we have any idea," Jeske said. "There's no name on it, nothing." The photo does say, on the back, that it was taken at Eighth Street and Indiana Avenue, and that it's of a man sitting on a dead horse. That last part might be redundant, but the photo clearly shows the entry to the Eighth Street Bridge and what is probably the Evergreen City Hotel and Saloon on the northeast corner of the intersection, near where the C. Reiss Coal building is now. In the background is a brick and lime business and other unidentified buildings on the banks of the Sheboygan River. Wangemann said he guesses the photo was taken between 1890 and 1900, judging by how the men are dressed and the dirt street. Roger Prescher, 73, owner of the Charcoal Inn South, liked the photo so much he hung a framed copy in his restaurant several years ago, along with other photos of historic Sheboygan. "We just wanted a little nostalgia," Prescher said. "I think it's kind of funny." If anyone knows anything about the origin of the photo or has information about the scene, contact Janet Ortegon at 453-5121 or jortegon@sheboygan-press.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:15:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20061216131427.047d28d0@bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The value of statistics, used with caution, is that they act as a corrective to the anecdotal, which usually contains unexamined variables. Like that the students who hang out with professors may have different interests than the ones who don't. OK, a cautious use of some statistics. The raw statement of self-proclaimed goals then and now doesn't speak to value, but it does speak to change, and it happened in a context which can be differently selected. Here's another way to do it. Let's say for the moment that the reason that many attend college really has changed, and not just in one 35 year period. I found a neat table of extent of education arranged by age groups going back to 1940. For simplicity, I'll restrict myself to just the 25 and under group. In 1940, when the population was 142 million, 7,500,000 in that age group had gone to at least one year of college. In 1970, when the population was 213,200,000, the number was 23,200,000. In 2005, when the US population was 300 million, the number was 100,400,000. Let's assume that the numbers of older students was roughly proportional, except in the immediate aftermaths of WWII and Korea, when many whose educations had been deferred and were now eligible for the GI Bill, went to school. The GI Bill is no more, and all students or their families pay a vastly larger proportion of their likely lifetime earnings for an eduction. OK, that's quite an uptick in the percentages going to college. The question is whether 100,000,000 US kids are passionate about the life of the mind or factors other than sheer love of learning have played a part. A few things to throw into the hopper. Before WWII elite colleges were non-competitive--if you had the right name and the money you got in. A BA or BS wasn't necessary for most forms of employment. There were a great many jobs in skilled trades and manufacturing that could generate the income to support a family. Even in many of the learned professions, like engineering, medicine and law, most students went straight from High School to professional school. This is still the case in most of the world, and in business and technical schools as well. And advance up the corporate ladder also didn't require a college degree and in most cases was limited at the very top more by family name than education. Higher education, at least until the thirties, was the prerogative of a class with a fair amount of leisure, for whom education was a social marker. And I imagine that everyone on the list is aware of how limited the pool of successful applicants could be at the most prestigious colleges (and for blacks at almost all colleges). Of course, in the thirties and forties a relatively small percentage of students finished high school. But for those who did a high school education could be a sufficient start. Now (and this was beginning to be apparent in the 60s) one can't assume that even literacy comes with a high school diploma, and the jobs once available to those without a college degree are either in other countries or require as an entrance to the interview room a college diploma, even if the job requires few skills learned in college. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the number of students who try to get through the four years as painlessly as possible has gone up. The trend to more and more education tenuously related to career performance (but increasingly costly nonetheless) proceeds apace. Many on this list will probably be among the last to get tenure with an MFA as the PhD in creative writing becomes mopre widespread. My own feeling, based among other things on therapeutic work wiith a lot of college kids and their families (a different set of anecdotal data), is that as a society we're doing something pretty awful to those of the young who are just putting in time and really only tolerate college because of amenities like health clubs, long vacations, and parties, the excesses of which are I think linked to boredom and frustration. And it's not so nice that their payment for the ticket at the gate leaves them financially crippled. Of course, if any of this were changed there would be a rather nasty economic collapse, and the putative careers of a lot of list members would go up in smoke. Mark At 01:15 PM 12/16/2006, you wrote: >>"In 1970, 79 percent (of college freshmen) said their goal was >>developing a meaningful philosophy of life. ..." > >A somewhat different perspective on one kind of "philosophy of life" >by a few folks in "my generation" is offered in a review I wrote of >*Sing a Battle Song: Poems by Women in the Weather Underground >Organization*, which was originally published in 1975 and just >reissued by Factory School. The review had just appeared in the >December/January issue of the Brooklyn Rail and is on their web site >but also posted at: >http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/#12-15-06 > >Personally, I found many of my classmates of the late 60s/early 70s >a troubling group who would not hold up well in terms of many of the >values usually attributed to the "60s," or in terms of the ethical >and political values of many of today's undergraduates. But then I >am prone to be troubled. Conversely, I spend a good deal of time >with undergraduates and find many of them seriously confronting the >issues they face, not only as best they can but also admirably. I >prefer, that is, to think anecdotally and critically, and in terms >of socio-historical context, rather in terms of massed mediated >lifestyle "trends," which in terms of "the 60s" was mostly (and >continues to be) disinformation and for the current generation is a >form of institutionally fomented despair and pacification. > >Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:44:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm no philosopher, but I think the compounding specialization of the "upwardly mobile" career path leads us to gear for being an expert in one facet of a large specialization. I'm pursuing a B.S. degree in computer science, and there are myriad specialties, many of them requiring one to reinvent one's core skills every three years. Fifty years ago how many kinds of nurses and doctors were there? Now there's probably a hundred or more professional "titles" for nurses and doctors. Compared to fifty years ago, a college grad could expect to be financially well off, and have the luxury of pondering a greater personal significance in the big picture. Now it's an insult to ask a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant, or software engineer, for her or his philosophy of life. It's an insult ! Nick Piombino wrote: > I'm with you here, until I get to your point that > >> the idea of a "meaningful philosophy of life" is pretty >> >>> stupid in practice, >>> > > In everyday life, it seems to me, there is little distinction to be made > between what is termed "philosophy", "philosophy of life" or even > "psychology" or "psychoanalysis" in formal (academic or professional) > thought or activity and the type of introspection that occurs, moment to > moment, within most people's minds continuously. It seems to me that > introspection and insight are not only the province of the privileged, but > that such efforts go on more or less continuously within nearly everyone's > mind, particularly when they are conversing with other people, or observing > other people talk about or do things, critically or thoughtfully. Which > brings to mind the idea that "The mass of men lead lives of quiet > desperation."Of course it is obvious that such desperation frequently drives > people to act blindly, manipulatively, ruthlessly, rather than attempt to > understand life's dilemmas further in a philosophical way. The issue is, > whether a person is well provided for or not, their level of anxiety and > empath will usually determine the practical effectiveness of their attempts > at introspection and insight. Introspective insight plus empathy affords the > opportunity to accurately understand what other people are saying and > doing. A person with psychological well being (contained anxiety plus > developed empathy) ordinarily philosophizes quite effectively, whether such > philosophical understanding is articulated or not and such understanding > will ordinarily progress towards ever more complex understanding throughout > their lives. Yet, of course, when the issue of social or cultural change > emerges, moral courage is another crucial factor... > > On 12/16/06 1:13 AM, "Andy Gricevich" wrote: > > >> By this logic, we should reject everything that's good about >> human life (not just philosophy and art, but also eating well/ >> enough, living w/o constant fear of starvation, disease, and >> abandonment, and so on), insofar as it's denied to a large >> number of people. >> >> Seems to me that making things available to more people is >> the solution, not rejecting those things. If something is >> ESSENTIALLY based on privilege, maybe it does need to be >> thrown out. There's nothing essential about philosophy >> that connects it to privilege; it's just that it, like >> the other things listed above, has been denied to most >> people thus far--and THAT's what has to change. >> >> And it's time to give up this blurry idea of "exclusiveness." >> Distinguish between phenomena whose existence negates what >> ain't them and those what don't. Again, philosophy doesn't >> keep anybody out; nor does the existence of li'l groups of >> people who engage in or discuss philosophy do anything to >> destroy other people (just as "avant-garde" poetry doesn't >> destroy slam poetry). >> >> It's so, so easy to criticize any project based on care and >> dedication; cynicism is a nigh-invulnerable, and totally >> boring, critical position. >> >> But the idea of a "meaningful philosophy of life" is pretty >> stupid in practice, allied more with that "cha-ching" Jesse >> mentions than with what I'd call philosophy. >> >> cheers, >> >> AMG >> >> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:24:43 -0600 >> From: Jesse Crockett >> Subject: A meaningful philosophy of life >> >> Reject All Philosophy >> >> all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege >> >> even this, because of it's exclusiveness >> >> but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:06:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City 38 Available Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward --------------- Boog City 38 Available featuring: ***Our Politics section, edited by Christina Strong*** Brad Will Presente! --=B3For me Brad defined a certain type of radicalism, an uncompromising way of living life. Treesitter. Folk-Punk. Anarchist. Pagan. Dumpster diver. Squatter. The dude wasn=B9t play-acting, he was a true believer. I loved him and admired him.=B2 --from Brad Will Presente! by Mark Read --=B3A line repeated from his last dispatch in Oaxaca, Mexico, =8Cshe is in the dark=8A waiting for the earth to shift and to open=8A.=B9 Stealing from his own work.=B2 --from New Year=B9s Day 2006, Poetry Project at St. Mark=B9s Church Marathon Reading by Brenda Coultas --=B3The Oaxaca story has until now not gotten major U.S. coverage. It has been a largely nonviolent effort by teachers and social movements to oust the corrupt and authoritarian PRI Governor Ulises Ruiz, who stole the election in 2004.=B2 --from Brad Will Presente!: Anarchy in Oaxaca by Chuck Collins --=B3The crowd was incredibly diverse in age, occupation, life; grizzled community gardeners stood next to activists, next to poets, next to musicians. Brad had so many passions it was wonderful to see all of them together.=B2 --Remembering A Passionate Life by Marcella Durand ***Our Printed Matter section, edited by Mark Lamoureux*** --=B3Playing off of a back story of fairy tales, ing=E9nues, and the trappings of literary girlhood, Treadwell throws it all in, shakes it up, and pours out a constantly shifting landscape that is tinged with real panic.=B2 --from 31 Flavors of Paradigm Subversion, Cornstarch Figurine by Elizabeth Treadwell (Dusie Press), reviewed by Maureen Thorson --=B3Abstract syntax and sound tremble in balance with metaphor and meaning; pure form is gently, sadly, lovingly, and cruelly degraded into its particulars like Rorschach blots.=B2 --from Look Inside, Look Inside; Razor Love by John Duvernoy (Unlock the Clockcase); reviewed by Hugh Oster ***Our Music section, edited by Jon Berger*** --=B3=8CYou stay in the van if you have to before you stay in a hotel, you stay on the floor of the club or, hopefully, thank god, someone gives you their place to stay. Those are the kind of things I learned, that and playing lou= d and fast,=B9 says Brook Pridemore.=B2 --Singing for His Life: A Conversation with Brook Pridemore by Mike Ferraro ***Our Features section, edited by Stephen Dignan*** --=B3=8CYou better hustle out before all the fish is gone,=B9 he says, pointing t= o his watch and raising an eyebrow. =8CIt=B9s 4:00 a.m., Sandy. Chop chop, pal.=B9=B2 --from The Fulton Fish Market, One Year Gone by Dignan ***Art editor Brenda Iijima brings us work from Chicago=B9s Tiffany Holmes*** ***Our Poetry section, edited by Laura Elrick and Rodrigo Toscano*** --Taos, New Mexico=B9s Jeff Conant with How October Collects its Flowers Para l@s que luchan toda la vida October, spacious and fierce, will make no more room for death or darkness. Under the rain, watch, --Brooklyn Heights=B9 Kish Song Bear with The Farm If a farm-soft mattress Loses the farm Go to the library=20 And request a Dream receipt --Flushing, Queens=B9 Shanxing Wang with Excerpt from Thus Speaks the Poet-in-Residence Solemnly we abuse delinquency every chance we get, bend to me. I would hope to never have to abuse form. But by speaking clearly and sending metaphors that we mean what we say, we=B9ve affected the words in a positive way. *And photos from Indymedia Brazil and Lauren Terilli.* ----- And thanks to our copy editor, Joe Bates. ----- Please patronize our advertisers: Bowery Poetry Club * http://www.bowerypoetry.com Bowery Women: Poems * http://www.bowerypoetry.com/bowerywomen/ ::fait accompli:: * http://www.nickpiombino.blogspot.com/ Litmus Press * http://www.litmuspress.org Traffic * http://www.sptraffic.org/ ----- Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-BOOG (2664) ----- 2,250 copies of Boog City are distributed among, and available for free at, the following locations: MANHATTAN *THE EAST VILLAGE* Acme Underground =20 Alt.coffee =20 Angelika Film Center and Caf=E9 Anthology Film Archives Bluestockings =20 Bowery Poetry Club=20 Caf=E9 Pick Me Up =20 CB's 313 Gallery =20 CBGB's=20 Lakeside Lounge =20 Life Caf=E9 =20 Mission Caf=E9 =20 Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 Pianos =20 The Pink Pony =20 St. Mark's Books =20 St. Mark's Church =20 Shakespeare & Co. =20 Sidewalk Caf=E9 =20 Sunshine Theater =20 Tonic =20 Trash and Vaudeville =20 *OTHER PARTS OF MANHATTAN* Hotel Chelsea Poets House BROOKLYN *WILLIAMSBURG* Bliss Caf=E9 Earwax =20 Galapagos =20 Northsix =20 Sideshow Gallery =20 Soundfix/Fix Cafe=20 Supercore Caf=E9 *GREENPOINT* (available later next week) Greenpoint Coffee House Lulu's=20 Photoplay Thai Cafe =20 The Pencil Factory -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:32:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Boog City 38 Available In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hooray! But I sure wish I could see #37, the baseball one. gb G. Harry Bowering, Born to hit opposite-field singles. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: MY NEW POETRY RELEASES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Two New Release: 1) A Great Holiday Gift Idea! Handmade WEE CHAPBOOKS from Dusie Press in Switzerland, second set of 3 in a series of 11 sets total... POETRY. Rose Window or Prosettes, by Wanda Phipps It's Curtains, by Eileen Tabios The Graces, Elizabeth Treadwell You can buy them here: Dusie Atelier These are all darling and unique in their own separate ways, all made by hand, using various materials and ephemera. ALL PROCEEDS FROM SALES TO HELP SUPPORT DUSIE PRESS... a bookbook, chapbook and weebook publisher... Sets come in sets of 3, in the first edition of 33... seconds sets will be made to fulfill separate orders for each weebook. Only $12.00 plus shipping and handling & even less for individual chapbooks Here's an excerpt from Rose Window or, Prosettes by Wanda Phipps: Everyone suddenly blue, a dark effervescent blue as if covered with body paint -- dressed for carnival. But somehow it was caused by a shift in the lighting -- suddenly everyone resembled barking blue dogs. We began describing ourselves to each other. He said I was all blue except for a spot of red at the center of my lips -- a deep red spot as deep as the blue that covered the rest of my body. I felt cold. His hands touched me, his body pressed against me and I felt a vague sensation of pressure at different points on my body as if I were being caressed through layers and layers of wool. He was a slight breeze sending faint ripples across the surface of a lake. I could hear him breathing. ************************************************************************************************************ 2) Also check out another excerpt form my journal of emotional sensation in 2nd Ave Poetry vol. 2: Featuring work by ANSELM BERRIGAN michael coffey ERNEST CONCEPCION kevin coval DEL RAY CROSS thomas fink ROB FITTERMAN drew gardner RIGOBERTO GONZALES donna ho FANNY HOWE brenda iijima PAOLO JAVIER jack kimball SERENA LIU paolo manalo NOAM MOR joyelle mcsweeney BRUNA MORI daniel nester MANUEL OCAMPO tim peterson WANDA PHIPPS sreshta premnath MEREDITH QUARTERMAIN peter quartermain BARBARA JANE REYES tony robles PATRICK ROSAL thaddeus rutkowski SUKHDEV SANDHU leslie scalapino JENNIFER SCAPPETONE purvi shah DENNIS SOMERA rodrigo toscano TIM YU and more -- Wanda Phipps Check out my website MIND HONEY http://www.mindhoney.com and my latest book of poetry Wake-Up Calls: 66 Morning Poems available at: http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-31-X and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193236031X/ref=rm_item ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:45:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Open Mic, Albany, NY Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Open Mic for Poets now at the Social Justice Center 33 Central Ave., Albany, NY Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: Don Levy,host of =93Live from the Living Room=94 on the = 2nd=20 Wednesday of each month at the Capital District Gay & Lesbian Community=20= Center, & host of =93Poets Night Out=94 on the 4th Tuesday at Billy = Jack=92s;=20 author of the poetry chapbooks =93How Small Was My Big Eden=94 and = =93Super=20 Queer Poet Saves the Day=94. The evening will include the annual holiday visit from =93Sanity Claus=94=20= with a gift for each open mic participant. $3.00 donation. Your host since 1997: Dan Wilcox. =A0 =A0 =A0 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 15:36:03 +1100 Reply-To: k.zervos@griffith.edu.au Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "kom9os@bigpond.net.au" Subject: Re: poetry vid clip: Komninos at the Tertiary Writing Network Comments: cc: Michael Magee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all here are some video clips of a HyPerformance presented at the Tertiary Writing Network's Colloquium Old Text/nu txt, in Napier New Zealand, December 6 2006.. intro to colloquium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZo_dHlrtM high street kew east http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKgVPsrxGc nuclear dreaming http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVIFawBjtso childhood in richmond http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNfgnoyAx40 the tanks rolled through the streets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLn1Hk71EeU invention/intervention http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu8rN-Ynafo cheers komninos ---- Michael Magee wrote: ============= Hi everyone, A nice video clip of Rodney's Koeneke reading his very flarfy "On the Clamways" series is available at: http://www.mainstreampoetry.com The clip is taken from his November 6 reading in the Downcity Poetry Series in Providence, RI hosted by Michael Gizzi and myself. MM www.comboarts.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joey Madia Subject: December update at New Mystics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.newmystics.com/, an art and literature website, is pleased to announce our December offering of poets: PATRICK PORTER, STEVE DALACHINSKY, GEORGE LENNON, JOEY WEST, TONYA MADIA, AMANDA SAILE, AND JOEY MADIA Plus a new music review, new chapters of Minor Confessions of an Often Failing Antichrist, news on our growing network of writers and artists, and much more. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:19:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I pretty much agree with you, Nick. I was really thinking, not of the actual and ongoing posing of these (indeed, properly philosophical) questions in one's life, but of the situation in which someone asks, "So, what's your philosophy of life?". You're supposed to give a nice little answer, like "Work hard, play hard," or maybe something a little longer ("Everything is connected, and the best thing anybody can do is to discover their role in that web"). The idea that one has an answer to this question implies that the philosophizing is pretty much over and done with--that it's been boiled down to a succinct, guiding mantric statement. Doubt is dealt with in advance. The idea that the questions have been answered-- that there are no more doubts, and that a concise and complete "philosophy" could take care of any question aside from "practical" ones, and do so for the forseeable future--seems like the opposite of philosophy, in either its specialized or its everyday sense. (Of course, there are some "professional philosophers," particularly in the U.S., who see philosophy in a similar light--not as an everyday guidepost, in this case, but as a way to settle, once and for all, the theoretical part of science (and of ethics, religion, art, etc.), to liberate the latter from reflection so it can get on with the work of, say, developing AI systems for the military). Nick Piombino wrote: I'm with you here, until I get to your point that > the idea of a "meaningful philosophy of life" is pretty >> stupid in practice, In everyday life, it seems to me, there is little distinction to be made between what is termed "philosophy", "philosophy of life" or even "psychology" or "psychoanalysis" in formal (academic or professional) thought or activity and the type of introspection that occurs, moment to moment, within most people's minds continuously. It seems to me that introspection and insight are not only the province of the privileged, but that such efforts go on more or less continuously within nearly everyone's mind, particularly when they are conversing with other people, or observing other people talk about or do things, critically or thoughtfully. Which brings to mind the idea that "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation."Of course it is obvious that such desperation frequently drives people to act blindly, manipulatively, ruthlessly, rather than attempt to understand life's dilemmas further in a philosophical way. The issue is, whether a person is well provided for or not, their level of anxiety and empath will usually determine the practical effectiveness of their attempts at introspection and insight. Introspective insight plus empathy affords the opportunity to accurately understand what other people are saying and doing. A person with psychological well being (contained anxiety plus developed empathy) ordinarily philosophizes quite effectively, whether such philosophical understanding is articulated or not and such understanding will ordinarily progress towards ever more complex understanding throughout their lives. Yet, of course, when the issue of social or cultural change emerges, moral courage is another crucial factor... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:35:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: MEAT BONES STEW HEAD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed MEAT BONES STEW HEAD (MEAT BONES STEW HEAD FLANK SHOULDERS RIB) ..... .. 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S..... ....... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:36:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Info on Nikki Giovanni In-Reply-To: <20061217171945.56219.qmail@web36210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anyone have information on where Nikki Giovanni is currently teaching. Please Backchannel. It will be sincerely appreciated. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:41:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: <20061217171945.56219.qmail@web36210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Before you can have a meaningful life, one must consider attachments. Too, one wonders, the individual must actually consider the world - far outside of the parochial. And this, I think, precedes all self-involved and on some days flaccid, because misdirection in the byproduct of missing out on those mentioned prerequisites, discussions on life's meaning. AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:51:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: A meaningful philosophy of life - Old Hat But Fun In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MY PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE Just when I thought there wasn't room enough for another thought in my head, I had this great idea-- call it a philosophy of life, if you will. Briefly, it involved living the way philosophers live, according to a set of principles. OK, but which ones? That was the hardest part, I admit, but I had a kind of dark foreknowledge of what it would be like. Everything, from eating watermelon or going to the bathroom or just standing on a subway platform, lost in thought for a few minutes, or worrying about rain forests, would be affected, or more precisely, inflected by my new attitude. I wouldn't be preachy, or worry about children and old people, except in the general way prescribed by our clockwork universe. Instead I'd sort of let things be what they are while injecting them with the serum of the new moral climate I thought I'd stumbled into, as a stranger accidentally presses against a panel and a bookcase slides back, revealing a winding staircase with greenish light somewhere down below, and he automatically steps inside and the bookcase slides shut, as is customary on such occasions. At once a fragrance overwhelms him--not saffron, not lavender, but something in between. He thinks of cushions, like the one his uncle's Boston bull terrier used to lie on watching him quizzically, pointed ear-tips folded over. And then the great rush is on. Not a single idea emerges from it. It's enough to disgust you with thought. But then you remember something William James wrote in some book of his you never read--it was fine, it had the fineness, the powder of life dusted over it, by chance, of course, yet still looking for evidence of fingerprints. Someone had handled it even before he formulated it, though the thought was his and his alone. It's fine, in summer, to visit the seashore. There are lots of little trips to be made. A grove of fledgling aspens welcomes the traveler. Nearby are the public toilets where weary pilgrims have carved their names and addresses, and perhaps messages as well, messages to the world, as they sat and thought about what they'd do after using the toilet and washing their hands at the sink, prior to stepping out into the open again. Had they been coaxed in by principles, and were their words philosophy, of however crude a sort? I confess I can move no farther along this train of thought-- something's blocking it. Something I'm not big enough to see over. Or maybe I'm frankly scared. What was the matter with how I acted before? But maybe I can come up with a compromise--I'll let things be what they are, sort of. In the autumn I'll put up jellies and preserves, against the winter cold and futility, and that will be a human thing, and intelligent as well. I won't be embarrassed by my friends' dumb remarks, or even my own, though admittedly that's the hardest part, as when you are in a crowded theater and something you say riles the spectator in front of you, who doesn't even like the idea of two people near him talking together. Well he's got to be flushed out so the hunters can have a crack at him-- this thing works both ways, you know. You can't always be worrying about others and keeping track of yourself at the same time. That would be abusive, and about as much fun as attending the wedding of two people you don't know. Still, there's a lot of fun to be had in the gaps between ideas. That's what they're made for! Now I want you to go out there and enjoy yourself, and yes, enjoy your philosophy of life, too. They don't come along every day. Look out! There's a big one... --JOHN ASHBERY --------------- --"Taking seriously Wittgenstein's remark that 'philosophy ought really to be written only as a form of poetry,' Perloff begins by discussing Wittgenstein the 'poet.'" --Do not forget that a poem, although it is composed in the language of information, is not used in the language-game of giving information. Ludwig Wittgenstein, Zettel ---excerpts from WITTGENSTEIN'S LADDER by Marjorie Perloff http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/perloff/witt_intro.html http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/660583.html ----------------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:11:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Info on Nikki Giovanni In-Reply-To: <644655.77462.qm@web54614.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit binghampton? On 12/17/06 12:36 PM, "Alexander Jorgensen" wrote: > Anyone have information on where Nikki Giovanni is > currently teaching. Please Backchannel. It will be > sincerely appreciated. > > Regards, > Alexander Jorgensen > > --- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 10:27:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Further query about the "alterna-Reading" in Philly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Haven't heard anything about the prospect of an "alternative" reading for "experimental" poets. I thought this was a yearly tradition, and surely Philly isn't so lame as to drop the ball on it (nudge, nudge)? The hardest part is finding the venue. In New Orleans, we found a church to donate their pews for two consecutive nights for whatever amount of money we were able to raise in donations from the readers-audience. After that, send out the email calling for participants, compile a list, and show up. Someone said that there wasn't a free night? Both Thursday and Friday are free (other than a panel on Goethe on Thursday; life is a series of difficult choices, you can't please everyone, yadda yadda). You could hold it from 9 or 9:30 to 11 or so on both nights and there would be plenty of room for everyone. As long as the venue is large enough, people can come and go as they please, so no one's trapped the whole time. You can do it, Philly, I know you can--it'll be fun! Tod "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 13:00:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: MLA Alterna-Reading Comments: To: michael_tod_edgerton@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael, I'd be happy to put something together if I can get "yesses" from a good number of poets. I thnk it would be a blast, a welcome break from MLA-ness. Best, Adam Fieled, Temple U afieled@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 16:09:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: a meaningful philosophy of life: Ah, Ashbery In-Reply-To: <20061217175141.10171.qmail@web83309.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A fine reference in the context of this thread. I get the drift, but I am also reminded of another Ashbery, the Ashbery of *Three Poems.* At the time (1972) the book came as a breathtaking contrast to the Ashbery of *The Tennis Court Oath*, a book more along the lines of Rilke's *Letters to a Young Poet* than the work of Jackson Pollack or Gertrude Stein. I thought of it then as perfection, after *The TC Oath* especially, which I worshipped, and that now I would never be able to free myself from his spell, an influence that I had earnestly believed up to then I could completely enjoy but still shake off the way a drenched dog shakes off the snow. I couldn't find a way, so I just read it over and over searching for a flaw. On something like the eighth reading I decided the tone of the book reminded me of a kindly sermon by some mythical Methodist minister and let it go at that. But, no surprise, a few lines have always remained with me. I had forgotten they were from *Three Poems*: "The great careers are like that: a slow burst that narrows to a final release, pointed but not acute, a life of suffering redeemed and annihilated at the end, and for what? For a casual moment of knowing that is here one minute and gone the next, almost before you were aware of it? Whole tribes of seekers of phenomena who mattered very much to themselves have gone up in smoke in the space of a few seconds, with less fuss than a shooting star. Is it then that our bodies combined in such a way as to show others that we really mean it to each other- is this really all we ever intended to do? Having been born with knowledge or at least with the capacity to judge, to spend all our time working toward a way of showing off that knowledge, so as to be able to return to it at the end for what it is? Besides the obvious question of who knows whether it will still be there, there is the even more urgent one of whose life we are taking into our hands? Is there no other way in which these things may be done for themselves, so that others may enjoy them?..." On 12/17/06 12:51 PM, "amy king" wrote: > MY PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE > > > Just when I thought there wasn't room enough > for another thought in my head, I had this great idea-- > call it a philosophy of life, if you will. Briefly, > it involved living the way philosophers live, > according to a set of principles. OK, but which ones? > > That was the hardest part, I admit, but I had a > kind of dark foreknowledge of what it would be like. > Everything, from eating watermelon or going to the bathroom > or just standing on a subway platform, lost in thought > for a few minutes, or worrying about rain forests, > would be affected, or more precisely, inflected > by my new attitude. I wouldn't be preachy, > or worry about children and old people, except > in the general way prescribed by our clockwork universe. > Instead I'd sort of let things be what they are > while injecting them with the serum of the new moral climate > I thought I'd stumbled into, as a stranger > accidentally presses against a panel and a bookcase slides back, > revealing a winding staircase with greenish light > somewhere down below, and he automatically steps inside > and the bookcase slides shut, as is customary on such occasions. > At once a fragrance overwhelms him--not saffron, not lavender, > but something in between. He thinks of cushions, like the one > his uncle's Boston bull terrier used to lie on watching him > quizzically, pointed ear-tips folded over. And then the great rush > is on. Not a single idea emerges from it. It's enough > to disgust you with thought. But then you remember something William James > wrote in some book of his you never read--it was fine, it had the fineness, > the powder of life dusted over it, by chance, of course, yet still looking > for evidence of fingerprints. Someone had handled it > even before he formulated it, though the thought was his and his alone. > > It's fine, in summer, to visit the seashore. > There are lots of little trips to be made. > A grove of fledgling aspens welcomes the traveler. Nearby > are the public toilets where weary pilgrims have carved > their names and addresses, and perhaps messages as well, > messages to the world, as they sat > and thought about what they'd do after using the toilet > and washing their hands at the sink, prior to stepping out > into the open again. Had they been coaxed in by principles, > and were their words philosophy, of however crude a sort? > I confess I can move no farther along this train of thought-- > something's blocking it. Something I'm > not big enough to see over. Or maybe I'm frankly scared. > What was the matter with how I acted before? > But maybe I can come up with a compromise--I'll let > things be what they are, sort of. In the autumn I'll put up jellies > and preserves, against the winter cold and futility, > and that will be a human thing, and intelligent as well. > I won't be embarrassed by my friends' dumb remarks, > or even my own, though admittedly that's the hardest part, > as when you are in a crowded theater and something you say > riles the spectator in front of you, who doesn't even like the idea > of two people near him talking together. Well he's > got to be flushed out so the hunters can have a crack at him-- > this thing works both ways, you know. You can't always > be worrying about others and keeping track of yourself > at the same time. That would be abusive, and about as much fun > as attending the wedding of two people you don't know. > Still, there's a lot of fun to be had in the gaps between ideas. > That's what they're made for! Now I want you to go out there > and enjoy yourself, and yes, enjoy your philosophy of life, too. > They don't come along every day. Look out! There's a big one... > > > --JOHN ASHBERY > > > --------------- > > --"Taking seriously Wittgenstein's remark that 'philosophy ought > really to be written only as a form of poetry,' Perloff begins by > discussing Wittgenstein the 'poet.'" > > --Do not forget that a poem, although it is composed in the > language of information, is not used in the language-game > of giving information. > Ludwig Wittgenstein, Zettel > > > ---excerpts from WITTGENSTEIN'S LADDER by Marjorie Perloff > > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/perloff/witt_intro.html > > http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/660583.html > > > ----------------- > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:22:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I couldn't open the attachment, and so could not consider it -- Guess I won't have a meaningful life. On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 09:41:28 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: Before you can have a meaningful life, one must consider attachments. Too, one wonders, the individual must actually consider the world - far outside of the parochial. And this, I think, precedes all self-involved and on some days flaccid, because misdirection in the byproduct of missing out on those mentioned prerequisites, discussions on life's meaning. AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com/ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:47:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Commodities Love Back (a possibly collaborative book project roughly about the materiality of reading) Comments: To: Gerash , Igor Baskin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline so I haven't found a publisher for this thing yet but i'm hoping that the editor of this fine journal of experimental prose: Sidebrow (www.sidebrow.net) will eventually help out either with advice or his very expert organizational and layout and editing--and in the meantime i'm sort of collecting any collaborations that come. The idea is that there would be a book that does almost nothing but talk back to the reader(s) and make one/them aware of the materiality of the book as one reads. In some ways it is a sort of communist invective but it doesn't have to be just that. It's also weirdly a love story (with multiple lovers because that's how books are--highly communist) because of a problem about reading in which you can never quite clearly see the thing read. Eventually to make the most sense it would have to be a physical book, but I think that there could be some exciting internet collaboration in which other commodities speak to their buyers, as they already do: "Eat me, buyer. Just bite me, okay" Advertisements, you know, as the book's punk/slut side. Or other things along the lines of Marguerite's: "I am not a pipe. I don't know why everyone always calls me a pipe." Maybe you can see the dorky language philosophy here=85 And also the part that is being a book could have some marginalia that is perhaps a way for the reader to talk back herself. (I'm thinking of Nabokov's Pale Fire in some way about this). "No! see Hegel. Aww." Or some kind of other comments that tell a whole story of what I imagine is a very different text that "the imagined reader" probably receives. Does that make any sense? Maybe not, but below attached are some samples. eireene *** I assume you are reading this, reader. I assume you are holding me--touching me in some way with your hands. But perhaps I have given up on closing to you, reader. Perhaps I am willing to be read from some distance away, laid down the table next to your breakfast bowl, propped up on the milk. If you were more sophisticated you would have bought a bookstand, but you won't do that reader, although that would free your hands up for some good rocks. I'd sit inside of the bookstand, stretched completely open and stare back at you if you'd only learn how to throw rocks. *** [new page] Maybe you wanted it to be a pretzel bag that you were opening, reader. I can't even tell you how to defrost the fridge? But I know that it doesn't close anymore, reader=97that's how full of ice things have got in this world. The freezer door won't close and then the big door won't close. Have we got any kind of future, reader? The milk has gone bad and I found a dead ladybug in the greenbeans, which are breathing too heavily into their little bags. Maybe you'll tell me what's wrong before I put a pan of hot water in there. Should I fly away home, reader? Fly and get home. ***[some distance away] What is it like to have no time to read, reader? Is it your uncle's birthday again? What about the PTA calling tree? Pretty soon your ex-wife's going to tell you to drive 70 miles an hour, rushing across three high toll bridges in that shit oil-and-gas-hog mini-van that you bought when you tried and failed to buy a whole house. A whole life, reader=97that's what you want, eh=97just a little job and a family and house. You'll kill yourself one of these days driving too fast across the Yukatan landmass just so you can see that school play where your son's got the part of a palm tree. Your ex-wife didn't even sew his costume, reader. She, meaning you paid for someone else to do it because your wife's gotten so hoity, she's forgotten how to sew. She wouldn't have been able to forget if she was still with you, reader. Think about those ten years you two ruined your hands sanding dry rot off the back porch of that run-down imitation Victorian that that we all knew you'd never be able to buy. What on your salary, reader? I don't care how many times your wife re-wrote the bills. The American dream was never real, reader. There isn't any way for you to get to it no matter how fast you drive. Even after you've paid for your son's costume, do you think you'll get to take your little boy home? No, you're divorced, reader, and your dad day doesn't start until Friday at two. It'll be a short weekend, reader, because you've got to work for half of Saturday. If you're not too tired after bagging groceries and flirting with the checkers and moving laundry soap from the back of a truck to the back of the store, you might get to play video games with your son in the evening. You might get to watch that new vampire movie=97but only if you get the credit card paid off. And then your son won't have time to do his homework, reader, because by Sunday afternoon he has to be home. Which isn't your house, reader. Your ex-wife won't even say thanks. But you drive across that bridge, reader. I wouldn't tell you to do any different=97die for your children. Just don't tell me I shouldn't be jealous. Would you die for me too, reader? Can't an idea sometimes be like a child? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 01:03:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Jasper Johns quote In-Reply-To: <730372.60108.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew, I'm curious what your point is.....that you disagree with John's statement? that perhaps "artists are the servants of the elite class" is more true? C On Dec 16, 2006, at 7:49 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Right. He knows. > > Matthew Baiotto wrote: Um, Jasper > Johns is a millionaire living in Connecticut? > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: Jasper Johns: "Artists are the elite of the > servant class." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:48:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Nelson Subject: christmas disaster generator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the christmas d= something odd and horrible and fun for all of you....=0A =0Athe christmas d= isaster generator=0A =0Ahttp://www.secrettechnology.com/xmas/badchristmas.h= tml=0A =0Ashare these terrible stories with all and eveyone=0A =0AJason Nel= son=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!= ?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp= ://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:56:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: <019f01c72098$1c5e2c00$0300a8c0@Weishaus> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This assumes some kind of hospital birth. In 1987 my son was born at home (I got to catch him)... it cost about $500 for everything. I can't imagine midwives out here charging more than a couple thousand at this point. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: saudade@comcast.net > > Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost > $875.00 today it costs $22,000. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 06:43:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: christmas disaster generator In-Reply-To: <20061218134847.47078.qmail@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the christmas d > something odd and horrible and fun for all of you.... > > the christmas disaster generator > > http://www.secrettechnology.com/xmas/badchristmas.html > > share these terrible stories with all and eveyone > > Jason Nelson by jove, by donald, by prancer and dixon, i think we have a winner. this is terrific, jason. i like the interface, the idea of the text being generated as in a slot machine of spinning wheels. with lots of xm(a)s detritus. and it ends up looking like a xmas parcel. in the fireplace. and, best of all, the "christmas disasters" are demented and cheering. and, o mi gawd, coherent. and the "terrible xmas songs" stocking stuffers are amusing also. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:07:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: EH Subject: Michael Englebert or Michael West MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I am trying to reach Michael Englebert or Michael West, who conducted an early seventies APR interview with George and Mary Oppen. Any assistance would be gratefully appreciated. Best, Eric Hoffman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:23:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: MLA Alterna-Reading In-Reply-To: <20061217210033.67512.qmail@web54507.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i'm told that the official reading will be the 29th from 9-11. sorry i don't recall venue---didn't make mental note as i don't think i can make that hour. i'm sure they'll announce. i'm the one who wrote in earlier to say that when i made an effort to do this, i was strongly cautioned not to compete with any of the events mla president marjorie perloff is putting together. it *is* a daunting slate and since this probably *is* a rare year when poetry will have the spotlight, i was glad to have been forewarned. that said, as tod notes, the 28th has some openings. kass > Michael, > > I'd be happy to put something together if I can get "yesses" >from a good number of poets. I thnk it would be a blast, a welcome >break from MLA-ness. > Best, > Adam Fieled, Temple U afieled@yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the dim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the dim It's a dim day today, I've shared my family again with all of the Democrats who would have voted Green in the last election, you remember the one when I found that cute dog on the street the other day, well it turned out it belonged to someone on the next block so I returned it with great happiness. Now it's raining out and I'm waiting for Madge to call, well Made and I don't get along so well, do we, Tim? Tim's Madge's husband, and we've gone the rounds a few times I can tell you. My mom's always saying "you never know" but I always reply "you sure do don't you" just like when she says "I'm going to call dad" and I say "what are you going to call him" and she says "i'm going to call him dad" or something like that. Now it's starting to rain out or at least it's getting it's getting darker and that smudgy feeling when you look out the window. The traffic light's changed again, it always does that this time of day. http://www.asondheim.org/wud.mp4 (13 megabytes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxYyu9fU3eE (smaller, not so clear) go to this one, it's spectacular last of the avatar with the white thing modulated by motion capture, I love these two combined into one they're not too large I promise. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:52:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paolo javier Subject: 2nd Ave Poetry, Vol 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2nd Ave Poetry vol. 2 ( 2ndavepoetry.com) featuring the work of annon-3888976 | anselm berrigan | regie cabico michael coffey | ernest concepcion | kevin coval del ray cross | thom donovan | phebus etienne thomas fink | rob fitterman | sarah gambito | drew gardner | rigoberto gonzales | sabrina gschwandtner donna ho | fanny howe | brenda iijima | paolo javier ellen kennedy | jack kimball | tao lin | serena liu jill magi | paolo manalo | noam mor | joyelle mcsweeney bruna mori | hugo mujica | daniel nester | aimee nezhukumatathil | long ngan | urayoan noel | manuel ocampo | aaron peck | tim peterson | wanda phipps sreshta premnath | meredith quartermain | peter quartermain | barbara jane reyes | tony robles | patrick rosal | thaddeus rutkowski | sukhdev sandhu | leslie scalapino | jennifer scappetone | purvi shah | dennis somera | rodrigo toscano | charles valle | tim yu -- http://blog.myspace.com/paolojavier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:53:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Subject: MLA Events -- signings, reading, food MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The University of Alabama Press and the Modern and Contemporary and Poetics series, edited by Charles Bernstein and Hank Lazer, are pleased to announce the upcoming events at the 2006 MLA conference in Philadelphia. On Thursday, Dec 28th from 5 to 6 p.m. Rachel Blau DuPlessis will be signing copies of her books "Blue Studios" and "The Pink Guitar" at the UA Press booth in the exhibit hall. On Saturday, December 30 at 10:00 a.m. Marjorie Perloff, President of MLA, will be signing copies of her book "Differentials" at the UA Press booth in the exhibit hall. On Friday night, December 29th, the Modern and Contemporary Poetics series will sponsor the annual off-site poetry reading at the Philadelphia Arts Alliance, 251 South 18th Street (a half block off of Rittenhouse Square) from 9 pm to 11 pm. Complimentary hors d'oeuvres and a cash wine bar will be offered, along with readings by, among many others: Barone, Dennis Beavers, Herm Bernstein, Charles Conrad, C. A. Devaney, Tom Drucker, Johanna Duplessis, Rachel Durgin, Patrick Espino, Eduardo Huang Yunte Kunin, Aaron Lazer, Hank Lehto, Leevi Monfort, Nick Neilsen, Aldon Orange, Tom Osman, Jena Perelman, Bob Scappetone, Jen Schultz, Kathy Lou Schultz, Susan Schuster, Josh Sherlock, Frank Shockley, Evie Steensen, Sasha Stefans, Brian Terranova, Elaine Williams, Tyrone Yu, Timothy All books in the Modern and Contemporary Poetics book series will be available throughout the conference at a 30% discount. We look forward to seeing you there. Hank Lazer and Charles Bernstein, Co-editors, Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series Daniel Waterman Acquisitions Editor for Humanities The University of Alabama Press (205) 348-5538 (205) 348-9201 fax waterman@uapress.ua.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:58:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: FW: from Patrick Burgaud MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Below is a Patrick Burgaud's first Flash piece. A Christmas ditty. Patrick and Jason have both sent us some fun literary Christmas toys. ja En ces jours de fêtes et d’illusions, j’ai le plaisir et l’honneur de vous annoncer la parution de ma première œuvre créée à l’aide du logiciel Flash. J’entre enfin dans la modernité. Il était plus que temps ! http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php In these days of holidays(name-days) and illusions, I have the pleasure and the honor to announce you the appearance of my first work created by means of the software Flash. I enter finally the modernity. He was more than time! http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php An diesen Tagen Feiertage (Namenstage) und Illusionen habe ich das Vergnügen und die Ehre, Sie das Aussehen meiner ersten mittels des Software-Blitzes geschaffenen Arbeit anzukündigen. Ich gehe schließlich in die Modernität ein. Er war mehr als Zeit! http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php En actualmente de los días de fiesta (días conocidos) y de las ilusiones tengo el placer y el honor, Para anunciarlo el aspecto de mi primer trabajo creado por medio del relámpago del software. Entro en finalmente modernidad. (Él) era más que tiempo http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php In al momento delle feste (giorni ben noti) e delle illusioni ho il piacere ed il honor, Per per annunciarlo la funzione del mio primo lavoro generato per mezzo del lampo di software. Entro nel modernity infine. Lui era più del tempo http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php In op het ogenblik van de festiviteiten (zeer beroemde dagen) en van de illusies heb ik het genoegen en de eer, voor in orde die het aankondigt de functie van mijn eerste baan die voor middelen van de bout van de softwarebliksem wordt geproduceerd. Binnen in de moderne toestand uiteindelijk. Het was meer van de tijd http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php No momento dos festivities (dias muito boasted) e dos illusions eu tenho o prazer e a honra, Para em ordem que anuncia a função de meu primeiro trabalho que é produzido para recursos do parafuso do relâmpago do software. Dentro na situação moderna eventual. () Era mais do tempo http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php W te dni Swiat i iluzji, mam przyjemnosc i honor Was powiadomic, ze moj program komputerowy, jakby piorunem, wydal na swiat swoja pierwsza prace. W koncu wszedlem w ere nowoczesna. Napewno nie za wczesnie! http://www.aquoisarime.net/noels/06/noel2006.php Patrick Burgaud 119 chemin de la Vie Borne 01170 Echenevex France 0450417459 pburgaud@laposte.net http://www.aquoisarime.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: HAPPY HOLIDAYS FROM JUST BUFFALO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HAPPY HOLIDAYS FROM JUST BUFFALO=21 Our Offices Will Be Closed From December 25-January 2. See You In The New Year=21 Upcoming Event Teaser... --Ron Padgett and Kenward Elmslie, poetry reading --Sara Greenslit and Dan Borzusky, fiction reading --Ellis Avery, fiction reading, booksigning and tea ceremony --Baby Boomer Black and Blues, interdisciplinary event --Storytelling In The African Tradition, Black History Month Celebration --Michael Gizzi and Mike Basinski, poetry reading --Stacy Szymaszek and Rod Smith, poetry reading --Anthony Tognazzini, fiction reading --Sonia Sanchez, Williamsville/Buffalo Poetry, Music And Dance Festival --Olsonnow 3 =40 Buffalo, day-long event celebrating poet Charles Olson, wi= th special guests=21 --The Big Read, Featuring _Their Eyes Were Watching God_, By Zora Neale Hur= ston --Twice-Monthly Open Readings, hosted by Livio Farallo --Nickel City Poetry Slam On First Fridays, hosted by Gabrielle Bouliane --Spotlight On Youth Open Mic Readings --Writing Workshops By Alexis De Veaux, Gary Earl Ross, Celia White, and o= thers. Winter/Spring Schedule will go online the week of January 8. Look back then= for dates, times, locations of all events. JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP RAFFLE Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce's Dublin -Paris' Left Bank -Dante's Florence -Shakespeare's London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats' San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket = to yourself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just B= uffalo membership make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week = of May, 2007. Call 716.832.5400 for more info. *Some restrictions apply. Raffle ticket purchases are not tax-deductible. JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml LITERARY BUFFALO TALKING LEAVES...BOOKS On Tuesday, December 19th, at our Main Street store at 6 pm, UB graduate an= d former Buffalonian Rayna M. Gangi will stop by to sign copies of her new = release _Forget the Cures, Find the Cause_. Gangi, a holistic health pract= itioner, argues that the path to wellness lies in changes in both diet and = ways of thinking, drawing on traditional methods of healing, modern medical= practice and a strong spirituality. Gangi previously wrote Mary Jemison: = White Woman of the Seneca. (Main Street store phone 837.8554) RECURRING EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every Thursday at noon at Starbucks Coffee = on Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg's su= ggested exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction= and non-fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trud= etta=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every = month at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem = Road, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:48:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm very interested in the connection between poetry and philosophy. Broadly there is the philosophy that wants logic and science to the rule, and then there is the poetic element to philosophy, so much tied up in language, that wants to make sense of things but not a cost of dehumanizing them. A poetry with purpose...Wm. James below could as easily be talking about poetry/poets. Finnegan http://ursprache.blogspot.com Philosophy, beginning in wonder ... is able to fancy everything different from what it is. It sees the familiar as if it were strange, and the strange as if it were familiar. It can take things up and lay them down again. Its mind is full of air that plays round every subject. It rouses us from our native dogmatic slumber and breaks up our caked prejudices....A man with no philosophy in him is the most inauspicious and unprofitable of all possible social mates. --William James, Some Problems of Philosophy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:03:01 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog (cutting up) Comments: To: Brit Po , New Po , UK Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS A history of cut-ups How tell a story in an American movie? Dying with The Dying Gaul The poetics of Alice Notley John Ashbery deserves the National Medal of the Arts Of Jena Osman, Rachel Blau DuPlessis and writing networks, as such The secret life of Kevin Killian on Amazon.com The role of influence -- Looking at Ben Lerner’s Angle of Yaw Of kari edwards (against pronouns) Representing San Francisco to Italian readers Ken & Ann Mikolowski’s Alternative Press ends a run of annuals after more than 30 years Country Girl by Hannah Weiner The uses of multiplicity and layering (Frank Film, by Frank and Caroline Mouris) and the Ubuweb Film Archive Notes on painting and more The Da Vinci Code as film being faithful to the book breaking faith with the audience http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:17:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We had two home births in the last four years; each cost us $600. I caught them both and gave them each a nice navel. I'm currently going for an MFA in Oregon; it's costing me about $1500 a year. mIEKAL aND wrote: > This assumes some kind of hospital birth. In 1987 my son was born at home (I got to catch him)... it cost about $500 for everything. I can't imagine midwives out here charging more than a couple thousand at this point. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: saudade@comcast.net > > Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost > $875.00 today it costs $22,000. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:46:23 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: creation In-Reply-To: <786016.31972.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT yes, two home births for me too. much cheaper, much safer, much happier than my first one, which was a hospital birth--free because in ireland. my daughter is training to be a midwife. :-) On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Eric Dickey wrote: > We had two home births in the last four years; each cost us $600. I caught them both and gave them each a nice navel. > > I'm currently going for an MFA in Oregon; it's costing me about $1500 a year. > > mIEKAL aND wrote: > > > > This assumes some kind of hospital birth. In 1987 my son was born at > home (I got to catch him)... it cost about $500 for everything. I > can't imagine midwives out here charging more than a couple thousand > at this point. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: saudade@comcast.net > > > > Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost > > $875.00 today it costs $22,000. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: A meaningful philosophy of life - Old Hat But Fun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Amy, thanks for posting JA's "My Philosophy of Life." To quote a few lines: "I'd sort of let things be what they are while injecting them with the serum of the new moral climate I thought I'd stumbled into," I love JA's "sort of" -- the "sort of" of letting things be what they are, which means "sort of" not letting them be at all: "...as a stranger accidentally presses against a panel and a bookcase slides back, revealing a winding staircase with greenish light somewhere down below, and he automatically steps inside and the bookcase slides shut, as is customary on such occasions. At once a fragrance overwhelms him--not saffron, not lavender, but something in between. He thinks of cushions, like the one his uncle's Boston bull terrier used to lie on watching him quizzically, pointed ear-tips folded over. And then the great rush is on. Not a single idea emerges from it. It's enough to disgust you with thought." Thanks, Tom Devaney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:55:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: <403.e69eb4b.32b8204c@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As a freshman at the U of Kansas, most of my courses were taught by graduate students. In my experience, my teachers in the liberal arts were talking heads. I had a psychology teacher who couldn't imagine falling back asleep to keep dreaming, "that's impossible," and "nearsightedness is counter-evolved." Ha ! The philosophy teacher most concerned by his ability to memorize all our names. Two English teachers who were just plain ugly and stupid, as they say, and a third English teacher wowed that my chemistry section had us writing "not in the passive voice." Apparently it was being drilled into her that science relies heavily on the passive voice. That's funny, too. But I loved her, she was great. In the science courses the grad student teachers were clear-headed, replete with actual instruction -- do this, do that, & you'll progress to the next level; while the arts teachers, "if you don't do that, if you don't do this, you won't be as brilliant as me." Of course the sciences are privileged, now. I understand that people in the arts really suffer, nowadays. I really understand that. Don't think I don't understand that. & let me re-state: rejecting philosophy is plain good philosophy. James Finnegan wrote: > > I'm very interested in the connection between poetry and philosophy. Broadly > there > is the philosophy that wants logic and science to the rule, and then there > is the poetic > element to philosophy, so much tied up in language, that wants to make sense > of things > but not a cost of dehumanizing them. A poetry with purpose...Wm. James below > could as > easily be talking about poetry/poets. > Finnegan > http://ursprache.blogspot.com > Philosophy, beginning in wonder ... is able to fancy everything different > from what it is. It sees the familiar as if it were strange, and the strange as > if it were familiar. It can take things up and lay them down again. Its mind > is full of air that plays round every subject. It rouses us from our native > dogmatic slumber and breaks up our caked prejudices....A man with no > philosophy in him is the most inauspicious and unprofitable of all possible social > mates. > --William James, Some Problems of Philosophy > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:42:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: Re: creation In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit expecting next month over here, in netherlands home birth is standard, under 1000 euro clams at the moment, if all goes accordin to plan no visit to hospital unless need be in which case the fire dept will show up and lift us out of our 4th story attic window, through which all furniture comes and goes anyway On 12/18/06 6:46 PM, "Gabrielle Welford" wrote: > yes, two home births for me too. much cheaper, much safer, much happier > than my first one, which was a hospital birth--free because in ireland. > my daughter is training to be a midwife. :-) > > On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, Eric Dickey wrote: > >> > We had two home births in the last four years; each cost us $600. I caught >> them both and gave them each a nice navel. >> > >> > I'm currently going for an MFA in Oregon; it's costing me about $1500 a >> year. >> > >> > mIEKAL aND wrote: >>> > > >> > >> > This assumes some kind of hospital birth. In 1987 my son was born at >> > home (I got to catch him)... it cost about $500 for everything. I >> > can't imagine midwives out here charging more than a couple thousand >> > at this point. >> > >> > >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > From: saudade@comcast.net >>> > > >>> > > Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost >>> > > $875.00 today it costs $22,000. >> > >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > Do You Yahoo!? >> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> > http://mail.yahoo.com >> > > > gabrielle welford > welford@hawaii.edu > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 > > wilhelm reich > anarcho-syndicalism > gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:12:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: A meaningful phil. of life/Bachelard, philospher of science and poetics In-Reply-To: <4586D5F9.50104@listenlight.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Gaston Bachelard is an excellent person to read re philosophy and poetry. Bachelard wrote for decades on philospohy and/of science, before turning to poetry and becoming the great philosopher of poetics, making use of wide rnage of methods and very wide range of poetic source materials. (He was an omnivorous reader--and one of best readers of poetry have encountered.) He developed psychologies and phenomonologies of poetics, making use also of alchemical sources. Some titles: Poetics of Space, Psychoanlysis of Fire, Poetics of Reverie, Air and Dreams: Am essay on the imgination of Movement, The Right to Dream, Fragments of a Poeics of Fire, Lautreamont, Earth and Reveries of Will, Earth and Reveries of Repose, Bachelard On Poetic Imagination and Reverie (a title from his scientific writing career: The Experience of Space inContmeporary Physics) I would recommend beginning reading him with The Poetics of Space, his most popular work and also has superb Introduction in which he outlines his development, methods, etc. The works of Michel Serres on literature and the sciences are also excellent and very stimulating. Reading Bachelard is like finding unexpected universes continually opening --in the interior worlds of reverie, imagination, poetry and the exterior worlds of the senses and matter. A unique and magificent thinker and writer. (And also human being from all accounts of him.) >From: Jesse Crockett >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:55:05 -0600 > >As a freshman at the U of Kansas, most of my courses were taught by >graduate students. In my experience, my teachers in the liberal arts >were talking heads. I had a psychology teacher who couldn't imagine >falling back asleep to keep dreaming, "that's impossible," and >"nearsightedness is counter-evolved." Ha ! The philosophy teacher most >concerned by his ability to memorize all our names. Two English >teachers who were just plain ugly and stupid, as they say, and a third >English teacher wowed that my chemistry section had us writing "not in >the passive voice." Apparently it was being drilled into her that >science relies heavily on the passive voice. That's funny, too. But I >loved her, she was great. In the science courses the grad student >teachers were clear-headed, replete with actual instruction -- do this, >do that, & you'll progress to the next level; while the arts teachers, >"if you don't do that, if you don't do this, you won't be as brilliant >as me." Of course the sciences are privileged, now. I understand that >people in the arts really suffer, nowadays. I really understand that. >Don't think I don't understand that. > >& let me re-state: rejecting philosophy is plain good philosophy. > >James Finnegan wrote: > > > > I'm very interested in the connection between poetry and philosophy. >Broadly > > there > > is the philosophy that wants logic and science to the rule, and then >there > > is the poetic > > element to philosophy, so much tied up in language, that wants to make >sense > > of things > > but not a cost of dehumanizing them. A poetry with purpose...Wm. James >below > > could as > > easily be talking about poetry/poets. > > Finnegan > > http://ursprache.blogspot.com > > Philosophy, beginning in wonder ... is able to fancy everything >different > > from what it is. It sees the familiar as if it were strange, and the >strange as > > if it were familiar. It can take things up and lay them down again. Its >mind > > is full of air that plays round every subject. It rouses us from our >native > > dogmatic slumber and breaks up our caked prejudices....A man with no > > philosophy in him is the most inauspicious and unprofitable of all >possible social > > mates. > > --William James, Some Problems of Philosophy > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends list. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:45:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: devolution In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You guys must be in the USA, where it costs money to be in the hospital. On 18-Dec-06, at 5:56 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> > > This assumes some kind of hospital birth. In 1987 my son was born at > home (I got to catch him)... it cost about $500 for everything. I > can't imagine midwives out here charging more than a couple thousand > at this point. > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: saudade@comcast.net >> >> Here are some other stats; in 1970 the birth of a child cost >> $875.00 today it costs $22,000. > > George Bowering. OC I did not vote for any present head of government. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:55:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sue walker Subject: Re: MLA Events -- signings, reading, food In-Reply-To: <002f01c722bc$9a60ce20$adb2a082@uanet.ua.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hank, All of this sounds grand. I want to attend all I can. We're interviewing, but I will try to extricate myself. I look forward to seeing you. Sue On Dec 18, 2006, at 9:53 AM, Hank Lazer wrote: > The University of Alabama Press and the Modern and Contemporary and > Poetics series, edited by Charles Bernstein and Hank Lazer, are > pleased > to announce the upcoming events at the 2006 MLA conference in > Philadelphia. > > On Thursday, Dec 28th from 5 to 6 p.m. Rachel Blau DuPlessis will be > signing copies of her books "Blue Studios" and "The Pink Guitar" at > the > UA Press booth in the exhibit hall. > > On Saturday, December 30 at 10:00 a.m. Marjorie Perloff, President of > MLA, will be signing copies of her book "Differentials" at the UA > Press > booth in the exhibit hall. > > On Friday night, December 29th, the Modern and Contemporary Poetics > series will sponsor the annual off-site poetry reading at the > Philadelphia Arts Alliance, 251 South 18th Street (a half block off of > Rittenhouse Square) from 9 pm to 11 pm. Complimentary hors > d'oeuvres and > a cash wine bar will be offered, along with readings by, among many > others: > > Barone, Dennis > Beavers, Herm > Bernstein, Charles > Conrad, C. A. > Devaney, Tom > Drucker, Johanna > Duplessis, Rachel > Durgin, Patrick > Espino, Eduardo > Huang Yunte > Kunin, Aaron > Lazer, Hank > Lehto, Leevi > Monfort, Nick > Neilsen, Aldon > Orange, Tom > Osman, Jena > Perelman, Bob > Scappetone, Jen > Schultz, Kathy Lou > Schultz, Susan > Schuster, Josh > Sherlock, Frank > Shockley, Evie > Steensen, Sasha > Stefans, Brian > Terranova, Elaine > Williams, Tyrone > Yu, Timothy > > All books in the Modern and Contemporary Poetics book series will be > available throughout the conference at a 30% discount. > > We look forward to seeing you there. > > Hank Lazer and Charles Bernstein, > Co-editors, Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series > > Daniel Waterman > Acquisitions Editor for Humanities > The University of Alabama Press > (205) 348-5538 > (205) 348-9201 fax > waterman@uapress.ua.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:14:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signatures have been added. another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml > >david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >should see it. > >To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go >to http://www.guardian.co.uk > >Israel boycott may be the way to peace >Friday December 15 2006 >The Guardian > > >There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israeli >overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in Gaza >and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Israeli >death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinian >land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid. > >Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid was >a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >the regime to change without bloodshed. > >Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycott of >Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European countries, >by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It is >now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read the >Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >Elia Suleiman and 85 others > >John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk > >While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, because >it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, the >subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be >done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London > >Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited > _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect the israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing this--I got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but it's just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want peace, and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really, what are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every day, targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground it's not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings! to go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money to a jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly moral person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in this barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" wrote: > Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signatures > have been added. > > another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at > http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml > > >> >> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >> should see it. >> >> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go >> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >> >> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >> Friday December 15 2006 >> The Guardian >> >> >> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israeli >> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in Gaza >> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Israeli >> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinian >> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid. >> >> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid was >> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >> the regime to change without bloodshed. >> >> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycott of >> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European countries, >> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It is >> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read the >> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >> >> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >> >> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, because >> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, the >> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be >> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >> >> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora > http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:49:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Book announcement, "The Lama's English Lessons" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My book, THE LAMA'S ENGLISH LESSONS, is now available from Three Candles Press. More info below and at: http://threecandles.org/press/books.htm Best, Tony ************************************* *Tony Trigilio:* The Lama's English Lessons (poems) 96 Pages, $12.95, ISBN: 0-9770892-1-5 "In /The Lama's English Lessons/, Trigilio navigates a postmodern American urbanscape searching for grace. He calmly chronicles the way the natural and the mechanical now interpenetrate, taking on each other's characteristics, missions: 'The cabs stupefied / at the airport like cattle.' In his quest he encounters the homeless, baseball, TV, special prosecutors, jazz, Lee Harvey Oswald, the proclamations of newscasters and ex-presidents, and the legacies of WW II and Vietnam. He discovers odd moments of humor and transcendence in the mass transit, multi tasking madness we're trapped, in a confluence of personal and public histories, and manages to float above it all, maintaining perfect spiritual equilibrium, like strains of Buddhist music." --- /Amy Gerstler/ "A quietude pervades this boffo first collection, the poems aglint with disaster. In a time of war, Trigilio tracks our sadness calmly, ever aware of the expense of spirit spent on anger. But don't be misled: these poems do plenty, graciously, elegantly, and with the ardent skepticism of a man living awake in the twenty-first century. Alfred Nobel would be proud: this book's full of peace and dynamite." --- /Alan Michael Parker/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:08:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ruth,=20 I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insensitiv= e hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There is and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region should stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british left wing intelligentsia in that respect. Shalom. le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit=A0: > am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working > non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect the > israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each > other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing this= --I > got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but i= t's > just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want peace= , > and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of > extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really, w= hat > are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every day= , > targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the > international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground i= t's > not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs > working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings! t= o > go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money to= a > jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others > there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly mor= al > person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in this > barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >=20 >=20 > On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" > wrote: >=20 >> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signat= ures >> have been added. >>=20 >> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought yo= u >>> should see it. >>>=20 >>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site= , go >>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>=20 >>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>> Friday December 15 2006 >>> The Guardian >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israe= li >>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in = Gaza >>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Isra= eli >>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinia= n >>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid= . >>>=20 >>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of aparthe= id >>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid = was >>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enable= d >>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>=20 >>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycot= t of >>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European countr= ies, >>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It= is >>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read = the >>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduard= o >>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soue= if >>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>=20 >>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>=20 >>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, becau= se >>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, t= he >>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall b= e >>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>=20 >>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>=20 >>=20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Neither of these posts speaks to the *content* of either the call for = a boycott or John Berger=27s piece -- or the fact that there are Jewish = signators on this supposedly =22anti-semitic=22 statement=2E Or the ser= ious = issue of Israeli apartheid (whose public face is government member = Avigdor =5B=22Verwoerd=22=5D Liberman with his calls for forced transfer= of = Israeli Arabs)=2E ----- Original Message ----- From=3A =22Michael A=2E SOUBBOTNIK=22 =3Cm=2Esoubbotnik=40WANADOO=2EFR=3E= Date=3A Monday=2C December 18=2C 2006 6=3A08 pm Subject=3A Re =3AGuardian Unlimited=3A Israel boycott may be the way to = peace =3E Ruth=2C = =3E I=27m entirely with you on this=2E I belong to Shalom Ahshav=2C have= always =3E militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined=2C = =3E secure and =3E viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an = =3E insensitivehawk any more than you do=2E But these calls to boycot = =3E horrify me=2E There is =3E and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism=2C posing now as anti= - =3E sionism=2EAnyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the= = =3E region should =3E stay well aware of this=2E=2E=2Eand of the very peculiar history of = =3E british left =3E wing intelligentsia in that respect=2E =3E Shalom=2E =3E = =3E = =3E le 18/12/06 23=3A32=2C Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson=40COMCAST=2ENET a = =E9crit=A0=3A =3E = =3E =3E am sorry to write this =26 then disappear for a few days but am = =3E working=3E non-stop--but after reading this must say=2C please=2C wh= at = =3E do you expect the =3E =3E israelis to do=3F esp now that the palestinian factions are = =3E fighting each =3E =3E other=3F I know some on this listserv will be furious that I=27m= = =3E writing this--I =3E =3E got blasted=2C even abused=2C when I wrote when Israel invaded = =3E Lebanon--but it=27s =3E =3E just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired=2C too=2C a= nd = =3E want peace=2C =3E =3E and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of = =3E thousands of =3E =3E extremists who want to see all israelis=2C if not all jews=2C de= ad-- =3E really=2C what =3E =3E are they to do=3F there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israe= l = =3E every day=2C =3E =3E targetting civilians=2E the situation is so entrenched that unle= ss = the =3E =3E international community comes in and helps create a peace on the= = =3E ground it=27s =3E =3E not going to happen=2E i am very left abt the US and have spent = =3E many yrs =3E =3E working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising =2460=2C000 from poetr= y = =3E readings! to =3E =3E go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of= = =3E money to a =3E =3E jewish org that is working in darfur=2C helping muslims as well = as = =3E others=3E there =26 in 40 other countries--I don=27t mean to say I=27= m a = =3E particularly moral =3E =3E person=2C just to say I haven=27t been totally oblivious to = =3E suffering in this =3E =3E barbaric (and wonderful) world=2E peace=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E On 12/18/06 5=3A14 PM=2C =22David-Baptiste Chirot=22 = =3E =3Cdavidbchirot=40HOTMAIL=2ECOM=3E=3E wrote=3A =3E =3E = =3E =3E=3E Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian=2C = 20 = =3E new signatures =3E =3E=3E have been added=2E =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E another article on the Guardian=27s with information etc appe= ars at =3E =3E=3E http=3A//electronicintifada=2Enet/v2/article6236=2Eshtml =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site a= nd = =3E thought you =3E =3E=3E=3E should see it=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E To see this story with its related links on the Guardian = =3E Unlimited site=2C go =3E =3E=3E=3E to http=3A//www=2Eguardian=2Eco=2Euk =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Israel boycott may be the way to peace =3E =3E=3E=3E Friday December 15 2006 =3E =3E=3E=3E The Guardian =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon=2C albeit daily vi= olated = =3E by Israeli =3E =3E=3E=3E overflights=2E Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the I= sraeli = =3E army in Gaza =3E =3E=3E=3E and the West Bank continues=2E Ten Palestinians are killed= for = =3E every Israeli =3E =3E=3E=3E death=3B more than 200=2C many of them children=2C have be= en killed = =3E since the =3E =3E=3E=3E summer=2E UN resolutions are flouted=2C human rights viola= ted as = =3E Palestinian=3E=3E=3E land is stolen=2C houses demolished and crops = =3E destroyed=2E For archbishop =3E =3E=3E=3E Desmond Tutu=2C as for the Jewish former ANC military comm= ander = =3E now South =3E =3E=3E=3E African minister of security=2C Ronnie Kasrils=2C the situ= ation of = the =3E =3E=3E=3E Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans un= der = =3E apartheid=2E=3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Meanwhile=2C western governments refer to Israel=27s legit= imate = =3E right of =3E =3E=3E=3E self-defence=2C and continue to supply weaponry=2E The cha= llenge = =3E of apartheid =3E =3E=3E=3E was fought better=2E The non-violent international respons= e to = =3E apartheid was =3E =3E=3E=3E a campaign of boycott=2C divestment and UN-imposed sanctio= ns = =3E which enabled =3E =3E=3E=3E the regime to change without bloodshed=2E =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Today=2C Palestinians teachers=2C writers=2C film-makers a= nd non- =3E governmental=3E=3E=3E organisations have called for a comparable = =3E academic and cultural boycott of =3E =3E=3E=3E Israel as offering another path to a just peace=2E This ca= ll has = =3E been=3E=3E=3E endorsed internationally by university teachers in man= y = =3E European countries=2C =3E =3E=3E=3E by film-makers and architects=2C and by some brave Israeli= = =3E dissidents=2E It is =3E =3E=3E=3E now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi = =3E asked=3A =22If not =3E =3E=3E=3E now=2C when=3F=22 We call on creative writers and artists = to support = our =3E =3E=3E=3E Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycot= t = =3E call=2E Read the =3E =3E=3E=3E Palestinian call pacbi=2Eorg=2E John Berger Brian Eno Soph= ie = =3E Fiennes Eduardo =3E =3E=3E=3E Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati R= oy = =3E Ahdaf Soueif =3E =3E=3E=3E Elia Suleiman and 85 others =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree=2E= co=2Euk =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters=2C Decemb= er 9) = =3E that the =3E =3E=3E=3E Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right= to = =3E exist=3B it =3E =3E=3E=3E also could not promise a Jewish national home=2C as he say= s it = =3E did=2C because =3E =3E=3E=3E it was not in its power to do so=2E The British government= = =3E merely =22looked =3E =3E=3E=3E with favour=22 on such an idea=2E More importantly=2C he o= mits=2C as = =3E many do=2C the =3E =3E=3E=3E subsequent words=2C =22=2E=2E=2E it being clearly understo= od that = =3E nothing shall be =3E =3E=3E=3E done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of= the = =3E existing=3E=3E=3E non-Jewish communities in Palestine =2E=2E=2E=22=2E= It is = =3E impossible to say that =3E =3E=3E=3E those qualifying words have been observed=2E Malcolm Hurwi= tt London =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E=3E Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited =3E =3E=3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E = =3E =3E=3E =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F =3E =3E=3E Get free=2C personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered = by = =3E Pandora=3E=3E http=3A//radio=2Emsn=2Ecom/=3Ficid=3DT002MSN03A07001 =3E =3E ----------------------------------------------------------------= - =3E ------------- =3E =3E --------- =3E =3E Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l=27anti-= =3E virus mail=2E =3E =3E Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n=27a ete detecte=2E= =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:17:01 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ... sorry... I should have said of course: PART of the british left-wing intelligentsia... and added that I was pinpointing the brits because the campaign, once again, is appearing in the Guardian... Michael le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit=A0: > am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working > non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect the > israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each > other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing this= --I > got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but i= t's > just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want peace= , > and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of > extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really, w= hat > are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every day= , > targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the > international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground i= t's > not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs > working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings! t= o > go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money to= a > jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others > there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly mor= al > person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in this > barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >=20 >=20 > On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" > wrote: >=20 >> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signat= ures >> have been added. >>=20 >> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought yo= u >>> should see it. >>>=20 >>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site= , go >>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>=20 >>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>> Friday December 15 2006 >>> The Guardian >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israe= li >>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in = Gaza >>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Isra= eli >>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinia= n >>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid= . >>>=20 >>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of aparthe= id >>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid = was >>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enable= d >>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>=20 >>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycot= t of >>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European countr= ies, >>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It= is >>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read = the >>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduard= o >>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soue= if >>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>=20 >>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>=20 >>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, becau= se >>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, t= he >>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall b= e >>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>=20 >>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>=20 >>=20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >=20 >=20 >=20 --Michael A. Soubbotnik Universit=E9 de Marne-la-Vall=E9e ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:29:41 -0800 Reply-To: jmbettridge@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Bettridge Subject: Beinecke acquisitions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Yale Collection of American Literature at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale University, is pleased to announce the following collection highlights and recent acquisitions in poetry. Walt Whitman Collection http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/2006/10/25/walt-whitman-collection/ Claude McKay Papers http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/2006/11/14/claude-mckay-papers/ Mary Barnard Papers http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/2006/10/23/mary-barnard-papers/ Gustaf Sobin Papers http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/gustaf-sobin-archive/ Ray DiPalma Papers http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/2006/10/17/ray-dipalma-papers/ Additional information about the Yale Collection of American Literature and its events and activities is available at the following sites: Poetry at Beinecke Library: http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/ Beinecke Library Home Page: http://www.library.yale.edu/beinecke/ Nancy Kuhl Associate Curator, The Yale Collection of American Literature The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University 121 Wall Street P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240 Phone: 203.432.2966 Fax: 203.432.4047 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Subject: SKIP FOX contact info needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone has Skip's current email address, please let him know that Tarpaulin Sky is trying to get in touch with him. Our two emails for him bounced back. Thanks, Christian & Co. http://www.tarpaulinsky.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:58:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Rattapallax & CITY JAMS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends: Please join us for CITY JAMS: Thursday, December 21, 2006 at 7pm. Free. Featuring Roger Bonair-Agard, Ry Russo-Young's remake of Psycho, and Punk Rocker Henry Rollins as the angel of death in Deathdealer. And the innovative films from the Academia Internacional de Cinema in Brazil. Jonathan Shorr Gallery, 109 Crosby St. (off Prince St.) in SOHO, New York City. The event is part of Jungle Drums' CITY JAM events. More information at http://www.rattapallax.com/salon.htm A veteran of the spoken-word scene, two-time National Slam Champion Roger Bonair-Agard releases his debut book, Tarnish and Masquerade, with accompanying CD full of spellbinding poems. These poems chart an exile's coming-of-age and an increasingly relevant immigrant's experience. Director Ry Russo-Young presents a film-as-art projection that puts a personalized and distinctly modern spin on the Hitchcock classic Psycho. Three separate women play Marion Crane -- now immortalized by Janet Leigh and a certain shower scene-in three different scenes. Official selection Tribeca Film Festival and won Best Experimental Film at 2005 Chicago International Film Festival and 2006 SXSW Film Festival. Director will be at the salon Deathdealer: A Documentary follows an angel of death played by Punk Rock musician and poet Henry Rollins as he goes about his daily work suited and booted, hanging out in diners and acting like a regular guy -- moaning about his hum drum life -- the film is about the need for change and how we can make them -- told in a humorous and typically rollin-esque fashion. Directed by Andy Watts. Film provided by Filmmovement.com From Academia Internacional de Cinema in Brazil comes 7 Grilos/ 2 Cachorros (7 Crickets/ 2 Dogs) by Roberto Andreolli. This stylized and colorful film interprets a popular Brazilian poem. Co-sponsored with Academia Internacional de Cinema, Cypher Books, Jungle Drums magazine , & Filmmovement.com Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:49:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brianq Whitener Subject: norma cole email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi all, if anyone has contact info for norma cole, could you back channel it to me? thanks, brian __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm with Chris on this. Israeli policy towards=20 the Palestineans is proof, if it were needed,=20 that Jews are no brighter than others. And I say=20 that as a Jew. If Israel restored the 1967 line=20 it would be no more vulnerable to rocket attacks=20 than it is now, and there would be a lot fewer=20 folks who'd want to send those rockets. Which is=20 not to say that it would be easy, but easy isn't=20 what they've got now. What keeps something so=20 eminently sensible from happening is Israeli=20 electoral politics. That, and ineffectual US=20 policy. Israel's success is based on 12 billion=20 dollars a year in US loan guarantees. No reason=20 (except that a lot of American Jews are none too=20 bright either, and US politicians never tink=20 beyond two years) that those guarantees shouldn't be conditonal. Avoiding criminal regimes is difficult if one=20 likes to travel, and I've been in my share of=20 places with horrendous governments. But I haven't=20 and won't go to Israel--my personal boycott. The=20 difference is pure atavism--as a Jew I feel a=20 responsibility for Israel's crimes that I don't=20 feel for Castro's. I doubt that I'll live long=20 enough to go to Jerusalem on my own terms. Mark At 06:16 PM 12/18/2006, you wrote: >Neither of these posts speaks to the *content* of either the call for >a boycott or John Berger's piece -- or the fact that there are Jewish >signators on this supposedly "anti-semitic" statement. Or the serious >issue of Israeli apartheid (whose public face is government member >Avigdor ["Verwoerd"] Liberman with his calls for forced transfer of >Israeli Arabs). > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" >Date: Monday, December 18, 2006 6:08 pm >Subject: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace > > > Ruth, > > I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always > > militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, > > secure and > > viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an > > insensitivehawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot > > horrify me. There is > > and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti- > > sionism.Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the > > region should > > stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of > > british left > > wing intelligentsia in that respect. > > Shalom. > > > > > > le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : > > > > > am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am > > working> non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what > > do you expect the > > > israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are > > fighting each > > > other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm > > writing this--I > > > got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded > > Lebanon--but it's > > > just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and > > want peace, > > > and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of > > thousands of > > > extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead-- > > really, what > > > are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel > > every day, > > > targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless >the > > > international community comes in and helps create a peace on the > > ground it's > > > not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent > > many yrs > > > working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry > > readings! to > > > go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of > > money to a > > > jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as > > others> there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a > > particularly moral > > > person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to > > suffering in this > > > barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. > > > > > > > > > On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 > > new signatures > > >> have been added. > > >> > > >> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at > > >> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and > > thought you > > >>> should see it. > > >>> > > >>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian > > Unlimited site, go > > >>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk > > >>> > > >>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace > > >>> Friday December 15 2006 > > >>> The Guardian > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated > > by Israeli > > >>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli > > army in Gaza > > >>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for > > every Israeli > > >>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed > > since the > > >>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as > > Palestinian>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops > > destroyed. For archbishop > > >>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander > > now South > > >>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of >the > > >>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under > > apartheid.>>> > > >>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate > > right of > > >>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge > > of apartheid > > >>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to > > apartheid was > > >>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions > > which enabled > > >>> the regime to change without bloodshed. > > >>> > > >>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non- > > governmental>>> organisations have called for a comparable > > academic and cultural boycott of > > >>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has > > been>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many > > European countries, > > >>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli > > dissidents. It is > > >>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi > > asked: "If not > > >>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support >our > > >>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott > > call. Read the > > >>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie > > Fiennes Eduardo > > >>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy > > Ahdaf Soueif > > >>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others > > >>> > > >>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk > > >>> > > >>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) > > that the > > >>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to > > exist; it > > >>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it > > did, because > > >>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government > > merely "looked > > >>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as > > many do, the > > >>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that > > nothing shall be > > >>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the > > existing>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is > > impossible to say that > > >>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London > > >>> > > >>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited > > >>> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________________________________ > > >> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by > > Pandora>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > > > --------- > > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti- > > virus mail. > > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:32:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: responding to Ron Silliman's blog entry on the cutup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "But a lot more important than figuring out just who should get credit for cutting up & folding in is fathoming just why this move at this exact moment in history. " Silliman at http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com Ron quotes Burroughs, who famously remarked in the sixties that "The cut-up method brings to writers the collage, which has been used by painters for fifty years." Burroughs also notes its use in film and photography. The cutup involves a media artist's or painter's sense of the writer's 'material'. Usually when a writer speaks of 'the material' of his or her writing, what's referred to is the subject matter and the little sub-stories or central metaphors, that sort of thing, not the media. Practice in other arts is generally more familiar with the energies and methodologies of the cut. Partially because the grammars of image and sound are not associated with so many rules and expectations. The structures of sentences are predicated on scads of grammar rules. Whereas when images are created, the rules are not so strong. To break the rules of grammar is something that is seemingly more involved in breaking useful rules about how we make sense to one another than the same sorts of operations in the visual or sonic. The constraints upon the syntax of sentences are more deeply structural than the constraints in visual art or sound art or even film. We spend years learning the rules of grammar and how to write coherent sentences, paragraphs, etc, and it's hard-won, a 'triumph into literacy'. To then start working with cutups involves a radically different branching out into language. It's more a 'branching out' than simply a 'different step'. It's multiple, combinatorial. So part of the answer to Ron's question of 'why this moment in history for the cutup?' must surely be that the technique has been cultivated in many other arts over the last hundred years. Even if the technique is more problematical in writing, the adoption in literary practice has clearly followed from practice in other arts. But why has this technique come to be more or less commonly practiced in so many arts over the last century? Partly because when working with media such as film or audio tape, cutting apart/together is necessary in even modest journalistic compositions, never mind getting fancy with the razor blade and getting a feel for it as a stroke of art. The materiality of film and recorded sound has been crucial, I suspect. But even in modernism, there's collaging in things like Pound's Cantos and widespread experimentation with juxtaposition in, say, surrealism. Or the visual publications of Dada and Futurism. But it's less developed as part of a world view. What distinguishes Burroughs in his work with the audio and written cutup is not only that disturbing brilliant trilogy and his influential audio cutups, but the world view he wrote about and developed both in the work and in fascinating writings about the method and its relations to cognition, addiction, originality, intention, goverance, language as virus... It's not simply the work itself but the world view etched into the work and life. Burroughs developed a whole poetics or philosophy of the cutup. The cutup is not simply a technique of novelty for him. It's a technique to help alter one's own programming as a writer. It also involves questioning conscious intention as the only way to worthwhile, consequential, even 'authentic' writing. "When you cut audio tape, the future leaks out." The future of writing, for instance. One can look at the cutup as a consequence of explorations, as above, of the materiality of media, whether the medium is visual or sonic or textual. I would ask you to also look at the following and its relations with the growing emphasis throughout the twentieth century on materiality. Concerning the language machine, I gotta say--with great enthusiasm--go out and buy Martin Davis's book "The Universal Computer: From Leibniz to Turing" (the softcover version is called "Engines of Logic"). That book gives a better sense than any other I've encountered of the proximity of things like the development of the computer to our whole sense of language. Davis traces the development of the computer from "Leibniz's dream" of basically a language of symbolic logic and a machine capable of generating true propositions in that language. I suggest that the cutup technique is part of a whole change in our perspectives on language and machines--and ourselves. In the theory of computation, language is one of the central subjects of study--in the same sort of way that billiard-ball-like-objects are a central concern of physics. In the theory of computation, language is studied as strings of letters that can be generated, parsed, recognized, etc. The theory looks at the *mathematical* properties of such collections of strings, or languages. This isn't quite the same as an emphasis on the materiality of language, but it's obviously related in that it involves operations on strings of symbols, operations more or less independent of the 'meaning' of the symbols. In the literary and general art history of the twentieth century, we see a growing concern with and practice involving cutups and their related techniques of collage and juxtaposition. Involving what were unusual operations on language and image, tape, film, etc. And we also see the rise of the theory of computation in which language is crucial. Language is crucial to programmability and the whole idea of the computer, going all the way back to Leibniz. It has often been said that language draws a magic circle round the realm of the thinkable. And the programmable. Our thoughts and images on what a human being is have changed in the twentieth century, have expanded to include the notion that we are soft machines. Just as Darwin gave us the conceptual framework to imagine humanity proceeding from the evolution of the most primitive of life-forms, so too has the theory of computation and its consequences given us the conceptual tools to imagine the mind as a soft computing machine--that wildly exceeds, at the moment, the capacities of all modern computers. Still, there is no accepted proof that there exist thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not, in theory and eventual practice. So that the fusion of language and logic, in the realization of Leibniz's dream, results in machines and languages capable of thought itself. That is what thought is. And the cutup becomes a type of operation on language involved in our growing awareness of the poetential fecundity of dynamic process in language. The cutup lets us peek into the interzones of texts, the nether-worlds between the lines where the cyborg emerges. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:50:42 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Ahadada Books Presents Tergiversation by Bruna Mori MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just in time for the holidays another free e-chap ripe for the down-loading! www.ahadadabooks.com. Enjoy! Santa Jess Sans Stress Sez Gawd Bless! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:42:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to support this boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time someone criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonsense. One of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jewish identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it probably is, then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years as causes of this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from the election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination of Rabin--as if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassin.) That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen anything to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions within Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support (e.g., the ANC) were in its favor. "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: Ruth, I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insensitive hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There is and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region should stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british left wing intelligentsia in that respect. Shalom. le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson à ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a écrit : > am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working > non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect the > israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each > other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing this--I > got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but it's > just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want peace, > and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of > extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really, what > are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every day, > targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the > international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground it's > not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs > working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings! to > go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money to a > jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others > there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly moral > person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in this > barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. > > > On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" > wrote: > >> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signatures >> have been added. >> >> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >> >> >>> >>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >>> should see it. >>> >>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go >>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>> >>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>> Friday December 15 2006 >>> The Guardian >>> >>> >>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israeli >>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in Gaza >>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Israeli >>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinian >>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid. >>> >>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid was >>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>> >>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycott of >>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European countries, >>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It is >>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read the >>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>> >>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>> >>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, because >>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, the >>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be >>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>> >>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:53:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: <658560.80485.qm@web86009.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html "The Israel Lobby" In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. Roger On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to support = this boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time = someone criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Non= sense. One of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked m= y Jewish identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it p= robably is, then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years= as causes of this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Isra= el from the election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination= of Rabin--as if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's= assassin.) > > That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen any= thing to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions within Isr= ael that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being boycotted= , it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support (e.g., the AN= C) were in its favor. > > "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: > Ruth, > I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always > militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and > viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insensit= ive > hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There is > and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionis= m. > Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region should > stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british lef= t > wing intelligentsia in that respect. > Shalom. > > > le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : > > > am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working > > non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect t= he > > israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each > > other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing th= is--I > > got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but= it's > > just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want pea= ce, > > and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of > > extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really,= what > > are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every d= ay, > > targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the > > international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground= it's > > not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs > > working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings!= to > > go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money = to a > > jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others > > there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly m= oral > > person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in th= is > > barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. > > > > > > On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" > > wrote: > > > >> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signa= tures > >> have been added. > >> > >> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at > >> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml > >> > >> > >>> > >>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought = you > >>> should see it. > >>> > >>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited si= te, go > >>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk > >>> > >>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace > >>> Friday December 15 2006 > >>> The Guardian > >>> > >>> > >>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Isr= aeli > >>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army i= n Gaza > >>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Is= raeli > >>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since t= he > >>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestin= ian > >>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop > >>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now Sou= th > >>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the > >>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under aparthe= id. > >>> > >>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of > >>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apart= heid > >>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to aparthei= d was > >>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enab= led > >>> the regime to change without bloodshed. > >>> > >>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-government= al > >>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boyc= ott of > >>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been > >>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European coun= tries, > >>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. = It is > >>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If n= ot > >>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our > >>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Rea= d the > >>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Edua= rdo > >>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf So= ueif > >>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others > >>> > >>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk > >>> > >>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that th= e > >>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; = it > >>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, bec= ause > >>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "look= ed > >>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do,= the > >>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall= be > >>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existi= ng > >>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say tha= t > >>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London > >>> > >>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited > >>> > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora > >> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > --------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail= . > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > --=20 http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:47:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: NEW Releases from Paper Kite Press Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Add these to your Holiday wish list, or purchase them (with FREE shipping through 12/31/06) and give the gift of poetry: NEW Releases from Paper Kite Press http://www.wordpainting.com/paperkitepress/pkpshop.html American Know-How: Patent Pending poems by Craig Czury, illustrated by Dino Patane Released in September 2006 48 pages of poetry and artwork, perfect bound, glossy cover, 9x4 oblong. $10.00 (Free Shipping through 12/31/06) from "American Know-How: Patent Pending" #00037 at christmastime write a poem repetitive with carols and shopping malls spice it up with road rage great white way yard lights dead tree pitch sticky on your fingers sign it butch cassidy write another poem repugnant with gigantic helium santa claus and family get-togethers spruce it up with ridicule childhood power struggles never-talked-about resentments sign it che guervara put both poems up to your ears whisper b o l i v i a - Craig Czury Craig Czury slides in and out of prisons, homeless shelters, mental hospitals, schools and community centers looking for poetry. An avid blues harp and bocce player, Czury lives on a bridge between two rivers, a branch without a tree. Daily his paramour sends him out for smokes, then rearranges the furniture. Half Moon Over Midnight poems by Mala Hoffman Released in December 2006 A chapbook-length collection of poems that sweep away the dust of everyday life to reveal the lustre hiding beneath. 4.25" x 11", Saddle-stitched. $8 (Free Shipping through 12/31/06) Mala is the Paper Kite Press "Poet's Showcase" for the next month. Please read her bio and a sample from her new book here: http://www.wordpainting.com/poets/hoffman.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:14:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: responding to Ron Silliman's blog entry on the cutup In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed very interesting thoughts jim. I've been playing with doing textual cutup using recordings of text for a while, and then transcribing the results back to text. one thing i've noticed about that process is that there are what i've taken to calling 'translation errors' in the cutup process. Places where, as the words are recombined, new words seem to be suggested. it's even more pronounced working in sound rather than print, because there aren't the visual cues to suggest the boundaries of words. just my $.02 On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Jim Andrews wrote: > "But a lot more important than figuring out just who should get credit for > cutting up & folding in is fathoming just why this move at this exact moment > in history. " > Silliman at http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com > > Ron quotes Burroughs, who famously remarked in the sixties that "The cut-up > method brings to writers the collage, which has been used by painters for > fifty years." Burroughs also notes its use in film and photography. > > The cutup involves a media artist's or painter's sense of the writer's > 'material'. Usually when a writer speaks of 'the material' of his or her > writing, what's referred to is the subject matter and the little sub-stories > or central metaphors, that sort of thing, not the media. > > Practice in other arts is generally more familiar with the energies and > methodologies of the cut. Partially because the grammars of image and sound > are not associated with so many rules and expectations. The structures of > sentences are predicated on scads of grammar rules. Whereas when images are > created, the rules are not so strong. To break the rules of grammar is > something that is seemingly more involved in breaking useful rules about how > we make sense to one another than the same sorts of operations in the visual > or sonic. The constraints upon the syntax of sentences are more deeply > structural than the constraints in visual art or sound art or even film. We > spend years learning the rules of grammar and how to write coherent > sentences, paragraphs, etc, and it's hard-won, a 'triumph into literacy'. To > then start working with cutups involves a radically different branching out > into language. It's more a 'branching out' than simply a 'different step'. > It's multiple, combinatorial. > > So part of the answer to Ron's question of 'why this moment in history for > the cutup?' must surely be that the technique has been cultivated in many > other arts over the last hundred years. Even if the technique is more > problematical in writing, the adoption in literary practice has clearly > followed from practice in other arts. > > But why has this technique come to be more or less commonly practiced in so > many arts over the last century? > > Partly because when working with media such as film or audio tape, cutting > apart/together is necessary in even modest journalistic compositions, never > mind getting fancy with the razor blade and getting a feel for it as a > stroke of art. The materiality of film and recorded sound has been crucial, > I suspect. But even in modernism, there's collaging in things like Pound's > Cantos and widespread experimentation with juxtaposition in, say, > surrealism. Or the visual publications of Dada and Futurism. But it's less > developed as part of a world view. What distinguishes Burroughs in his work > with the audio and written cutup is not only that disturbing brilliant > trilogy and his influential audio cutups, but the world view he wrote about > and developed both in the work and in fascinating writings about the method > and its relations to cognition, addiction, originality, intention, > goverance, language as virus... > > It's not simply the work itself but the world view etched into the work and > life. Burroughs developed a whole poetics or philosophy of the cutup. The > cutup is not simply a technique of novelty for him. It's a technique to help > alter one's own programming as a writer. It also involves questioning > conscious intention as the only way to worthwhile, consequential, even > 'authentic' writing. "When you cut audio tape, the future leaks out." The > future of writing, for instance. > > One can look at the cutup as a consequence of explorations, as above, of the > materiality of media, whether the medium is visual or sonic or textual. > > I would ask you to also look at the following and its relations with the > growing emphasis throughout the twentieth century on materiality. > > Concerning the language machine, I gotta say--with great enthusiasm--go out > and buy Martin Davis's book "The Universal Computer: From Leibniz to Turing" > (the softcover version is called "Engines of Logic"). That book gives a > better sense than any other I've encountered of the proximity of things like > the development of the computer to our whole sense of language. Davis traces > the development of the computer from "Leibniz's dream" of basically a > language of symbolic logic and a machine capable of generating true > propositions in that language. > > I suggest that the cutup technique is part of a whole change in our > perspectives on language and machines--and ourselves. > > In the theory of computation, language is one of the central subjects of > study--in the same sort of way that billiard-ball-like-objects are a central > concern of physics. In the theory of computation, language is studied as > strings of letters that can be generated, parsed, recognized, etc. The > theory looks at the *mathematical* properties of such collections of > strings, or languages. This isn't quite the same as an emphasis on the > materiality of language, but it's obviously related in that it involves > operations on strings of symbols, operations more or less independent of the > 'meaning' of the symbols. > > In the literary and general art history of the twentieth century, we see a > growing concern with and practice involving cutups and their related > techniques of collage and juxtaposition. Involving what were unusual > operations on language and image, tape, film, etc. And we also see the rise > of the theory of computation in which language is crucial. Language is > crucial to programmability and the whole idea of the computer, going all the > way back to Leibniz. It has often been said that language draws a magic > circle round the realm of the thinkable. And the programmable. > > Our thoughts and images on what a human being is have changed in the > twentieth century, have expanded to include the notion that we are soft > machines. Just as Darwin gave us the conceptual framework to imagine > humanity proceeding from the evolution of the most primitive of life-forms, > so too has the theory of computation and its consequences given us the > conceptual tools to imagine the mind as a soft computing machine--that > wildly exceeds, at the moment, the capacities of all modern computers. > Still, there is no accepted proof that there exist thought processes of > which humans are capable and computers are not, in theory and eventual > practice. > > So that the fusion of language and logic, in the realization of Leibniz's > dream, results in machines and languages capable of thought itself. That is > what thought is. > > And the cutup becomes a type of operation on language involved in our > growing awareness of the poetential fecundity of dynamic process in > language. The cutup lets us peek into the interzones of texts, the > nether-worlds between the lines where the cyborg emerges. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:22:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: PERFORATIONS 30: Hut / Tech and bare life CFM (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-593986127-1166552573=:22990" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-593986127-1166552573=:22990 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Public Domain, Inc. is pleased to announce the call for PERFORATIONS 30: Hut / Tech & bare life As usual with perforations, deadlines are somewhat fluid but please notify Robert Cheatham or Fehta Murhana of your intent by February 15 2007 in order to be included in the release notification. Article length is at your discretion. Experimental hypertexts are especially welcome. Other forms of media, video, etc., may have length restrictions, please cc media editor Chea Prince or technical editor, Jim Demmers. If you have any questions please query one of the editors. ------------------------------------- Hut Tech and bare life "When the shack dweller lays in supplies, she is composing a politics." Lisa Robertson This issue of Perforations was generated because of papers found during a reconstruction of Fehta Murghana's hut. She had constructed it herself as a writer's retreat but was fond of calling it a 'witch hut', always fantasizing putting it on legs as the famous hut-on-chicken-legs of the Russian witch fable Baba Yaga, creating an image of inner mobility only seemingly at odds with the the apparent rooted nature of the hut. This issue/node of Perforations will concede the perimeter to the hut and hut dwellers everywhere, but also examines the oxymorons of thought which the hut generates at the center (potentially), such as the 'rooted nomadism' of the hut dweller and perhaps even the 'revolutionary conservativism' of such, including its modern anti-modernism. Murghana herself was well aware of the uncanny nature of the 'hut,' seeing it as enabling portents and revenants, neither of which are wanted in the modern world, yet both are continuously courted through the hypermodern technical networks which course through contemporary life, binding and separating at the same time. We begin with Murghana's musings on the hut, but several writers have lately taken to heart, (not forgetting Rykwert's history of the hut), the enigma of the hut, such as Anne Cline, Lisa Robertson, and most lately Adam Scharff in a recently released book on Heidegger's Hut. We have enabled the basic text along the way with quotes from the above. What is 'Hut / Tech', that such frabjous entities can be held together by a stroke, a dividing line between the nether poles of a magnet? Another oxymoron? Who are the dwellers of huts, either in thought or corporeally? Does the hut embody some sort of midway point between homeless and home? Between presence and absence? Is there any future for the hut or is it to be relegated to economic end-zones of emergency and to the camps of the coming era? Is there the 'hut of last resort' and then the freely chosen hut? Or is the very nature of the hut a last resort=8Aand hence a resort to primal potentiality, both ending and beginning? (After all, the three most notable hut dwellers in recent memory are Henry Thoreau, Theodore Kacynski, and Martin Heidegger, all of which would seem to be problematic for the modern cultural inhabitant --besides being white, western males -- of the current wave of hyperdevelopment in re: to lofts, townhouses, tract Macmansions, all examples of a certain form of maximalism and neo-liberal justifications of a new economic order. And of course with the above dwellers, the hut is often seen as a breeding ground of primordial darkness in its willful, almost-Nietzschean separation from culture, civilization, and society.: "What we crave is not Rosseau's solitude but the excellent series of origin dwindling on ahead into the future. Thus we love shacks. Each leads erotically to the next. One sojourns, or starts out, rather than settles, in a shack. Domestic duration, like childhood, is transient, serial. A shack is always timely. Typically an account of the history of architecture will begin with a shack." Lisa Robertson But the hut also seems oddly timeless in its aspect of catering to bare life, which exists as a possibility everywhere and everywhen. Is there any place left for the minimalisms of the hut? For its limitations, its 'insect politics,' its dark broodings, its centrality in a haunted, uncanny landscape? Or are the compacted maximalisms of favelas, the psychic densities and thickenings and potential new forms which they seem to prophesy, more exacting? In all cases the 'hut' avers between opacity and transparency, justifying both, on different occasions, preserving both as trans-temporal exigencies which advance, retreat (and sublime) into spiritualities, goblins, ghosts, ethers, and materializations at the drop of a hat. Please fell free to send us your hut life, even if it only resides as a dre= am, a whistle in the dark. Please feel free to send us the minimals that you are able to squeeze out of everyday, the disguised trans-temporalities that make up hut life in the middle of empire, that make up hope in the middle of loss and abandon, like lotus seeds found in the bottom of a three thousand year old pyramid. notes (1) Robertson quotes From Playing House: a brief account of the idea of the shack Lisa Robertson in Occasional Work and Seven Walks From the Office of Soft Architecture Robert Cheatham Atlanta January 2007 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hut / Tech Fehta Murghana 1) How, now, could anyone possibly advocate the 'weakness' of the hut or the shack, its glaring idleness, downtime, bricoleur-ness, and embrace of decay? Like difficult or impossible speech, its perceived weakness (the weakness of opacity in the one, the weakness of the minimum in the former) is actually a form of strength. 2) The hut/cabin/shack is the epicenter of 'experimentalism,' even if 'only' vernacular. Always successful and always a failure, both at the same time; the necessity which the hut represents is precisely that: "The economy of the shack enumerates necessity, or more exactly it enumerates a dream of necessity, using what's at hand." (Lisa Robertson 1) [....] more here: http://www.pd.org/~zeug/perf-30/huttech1.html ---------------------------- Guest Editor: Fehta Murghana fehta@pd.org Senior Editor: Robert Cheatham zeug@pd.org Technical Editor Jim Demmers Jdemmers@pd.org Media Editor: Chea Prince Chea@pd.org Perforations raison d'tre here: http://www.pd.org/~chea/Perforations/perf1/perf-intro.html Perforations index page: http://www.pd.org/~chea/HTML/perforations-index.html podcasts, videos, and other projects here: http://www.pd.org -- -------------------------------------- "Reeling and Writhing, of course, to begin with, and then the different branches of arithmetic -- Ambition, Distraction, Uglification, and Derision." The Mock Turtle in Alice in Wonderland ------------------------------------ --0-593986127-1166552573=:22990-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:57:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: responding to Ron Silliman's blog entry on the cutup In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 19-Dec-06, at 12:32 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: > Ron quotes Burroughs, who famously remarked in the sixties that "The > cut-up > method brings to writers the collage, which has been used by painters > for > fifty years." Burroughs also notes its use in film and photography. Didn't he also quoter someone else who said that Brion Gysin was an American? George B. Author of his own misfortunes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:25:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: script with stupid question (another dose of poetics) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed script with stupid question is this a found script or one i created? does it really matter? given the relatively small number of symbols, it would be reasonable to apply coding to it - a matrix/template that might slide across the apparent grid, producing meaning. one might think of this as a _universal machine_ applicable to texts of any length; it becomes increasingly evident that meaning is a construct _across_ symbols, neither within them nor within the dictionary translation / transliterations. here, in this example, only in this particular example, one has a section of what seems to be an _infinite text,_ a text in the manner of a bandage or suture across the wound of a sememe (what reads as a sememe); a wound within, unconstrued within, the imaginary. think of this as the _lid_ of the _pre-linguistic_ - not exactly mode, but a potential for interpreta- tion, sliding out and against itself, as soon as one is found. nothing holds here, not even "here," not even place or placement. the lesson, where we are, where we are not, is always already unlearned. posted by alan @ 11:08 AM 0 Comments Links to this post italics and script at http://nikuko.blogspot.com script at http://www.asondheim.org/script.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:43:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: script with stupid question (another dose of poetics) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Alan, when you say meaning is a construct "across" symbols, neither within them or their definitions, that puts me in mind of two things. the first is Wittgensteins pronouncement that meaning reduces to the function of words in a language in almost all cases, and that if you know how a word is used in a language then you know what the word means. the second is the philosophical conception of supervenience which is defined generally as follows: "a set of stuff A supervenes on a set of some stuff B iff. nothing can differ about A without differring about B as well." I wonder how this might relate or contrast with your notion of acrossness. On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Alan Sondheim wrote: > script with stupid question > > > is this a found script or one i created? does it really matter? given the > relatively small number of symbols, it would be reasonable to apply coding to > it - a matrix/template that might slide across the apparent grid, producing > meaning. one might think of this as a _universal machine_ applicable to texts > of any length; it becomes increasingly evident that meaning is a construct > _across_ symbols, neither within them nor within the dictionary translation / > transliterations. > > here, in this example, only in this particular example, one has a section of > what seems to be an _infinite text,_ a text in the manner of a bandage or > suture across the wound of a sememe (what reads as a sememe); a wound within, > unconstrued within, the imaginary. think of this as the _lid_ of the > _pre-linguistic_ - not exactly mode, but a potential for interpreta- tion, > sliding out and against itself, as soon as one is found. nothing holds here, > not even "here," not even place or placement. the lesson, where we are, where > we are not, is always already unlearned. > > posted by alan @ 11:08 AM 0 Comments Links to this post > > italics and script at http://nikuko.blogspot.com > script at http://www.asondheim.org/script.jpg > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:52:15 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" Subject: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian columnist who left the paper three years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt both by the Soviet Union (end o= f one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of said family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By the way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's when Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep doing my part to promote a peac= e settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing israeli government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom I admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at least o= n second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll keep saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. whatever... piece of cake, I said... Michael le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day =E0 rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit=A0: > I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. >=20 > I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: >=20 > http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html >=20 > "The Israel Lobby" >=20 > In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby > determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at > the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit > and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended > talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is > inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it > coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence > your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the > extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; > but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. >=20 > Roger >=20 > On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to support= this >> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time so= meone >> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonsense= . One >> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jewish >> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it probabl= y is, >> then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years as cause= s of >> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from the >> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination of Rabin= --as >> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassin.) >>=20 >> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen >> anything to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions with= in >> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being >> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support (= e.g., >> the ANC) were in its favor. >>=20 >> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >> Ruth, >> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always >> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and >> viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insensi= tive >> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There i= s >> and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sioni= sm. >> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region should >> stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british le= ft >> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >> Shalom. >>=20 >>=20 >> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : >>=20 >>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working >>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect t= he >>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each >>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing th= is--I >>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but= it's >>> just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want pea= ce, >>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of >>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really,= what >>> are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every d= ay, >>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the >>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground= it's >>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs >>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings!= to >>> go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money = to a >>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others >>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly m= oral >>> person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in th= is >>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signa= tures >>>> have been added. >>>>=20 >>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought = you >>>>> should see it. >>>>>=20 >>>>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited si= te, >>>>> go >>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>>=20 >>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>> The Guardian >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Isr= aeli >>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army i= n >>>>> Gaza >>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Is= raeli >>>>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since t= he >>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestin= ian >>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now Sou= th >>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under aparthe= id. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apart= heid >>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to aparthei= d was >>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enab= led >>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-government= al >>>>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boyc= ott >>>>> of >>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European >>>>> countries, >>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. = It is >>>>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If n= ot >>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Rea= d the >>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Edua= rdo >>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf So= ueif >>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>>=20 >>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>>=20 >>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that th= e >>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; = it >>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, bec= ause >>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "look= ed >>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do,= the >>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall= be >>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existi= ng >>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say tha= t >>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>>>=20 >>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >>> -- >>> --------- >>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail= . >>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:25:04 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger, the Kingsley Amis of her time and sex. Anyway, no need to get huffy. "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian columnist who left the paper three years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt both by the Soviet Union (end of one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of said family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By the way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's when Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep doing my part to promote a peace settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing israeli government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom I admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at least on second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll keep saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. whatever... piece of cake, I said... Michael le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day à rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a écrit : > I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. > > I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: > > http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html > > "The Israel Lobby" > > In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby > determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at > the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit > and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended > talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is > inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it > coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence > your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the > extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; > but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. > > Roger > > On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to support this >> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time someone >> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonsense. One >> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jewish >> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it probably is, >> then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years as causes of >> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from the >> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination of Rabin--as >> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassin.) >> >> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen >> anything to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions within >> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being >> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support (e.g., >> the ANC) were in its favor. >> >> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >> Ruth, >> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always >> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and >> viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insensitive >> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There is >> and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. >> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region should >> stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british left >> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >> Shalom. >> >> >> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson à ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a écrit : >> >>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working >>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect the >>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each >>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing this--I >>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but it's >>> just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want peace, >>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of >>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really, what >>> are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every day, >>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the >>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground it's >>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs >>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings! to >>> go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money to a >>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others >>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly moral >>> person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in this >>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>> >>> >>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new signatures >>>> have been added. >>>> >>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >>>>> should see it. >>>>> >>>>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, >>>>> go >>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>> The Guardian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israeli >>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in >>>>> Gaza >>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every Israeli >>>>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinian >>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid. >>>>> >>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid was >>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>> >>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >>>>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycott >>>>> of >>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European >>>>> countries, >>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It is >>>>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read the >>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>> >>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, because >>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, the >>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be >>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>>> >>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> --------- >>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>> >>> >>> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:43:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: <654888.29407.qm@web86010.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable thank you michael! she may be right-wing but sure isn't in this article. women are in prison in iraq, afraid to leave their homes--see article this week in boston globe. burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other middl= e east country.=20 and it seems that only israel gets commented up on on this list serv--no articles or comments abt how minorities are abused in other mid-east countries, or abt darfur where there is a holocaust going on, or as I heard on INN yesterday there's a new repot that says 10 million female fetuses have been aborted or newborn baby girls killed--mostly by being buried aliv= e or by having sand etc poured into their noses. or abt govt violence in lati= n america.=20 if left-wing has something to do w/ believing that every human being has human rights & must be fed & given opportunities than let's think abt the 75% of the hungry people in this world who are women and children. how many jews are there in the world-- to be blamed for so many problems! of course israel has done awful things, and peace is finally the only answe= r and of course war kills the innocent--now 80-85% of people killed in wars are civilians--those who are the victims of the very regime the others are trying to overthrow. and regimes that take over through violence usually turn into tyrannical govts. ok, I realize I'm lecturing and over the top--better stop drinking coffee for awhile & get back to work--but to be a left-wing jew in the US these days is to see some contradictions. On 12/19/06 3:25 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger, the Kingsley Amis of her time = and > sex. > Anyway, no need to get huffy. >=20 > "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: > Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian columnist who left the paper t= hree > years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : >=20 > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html >=20 > And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt both by the Soviet Union (end= of > one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of sai= d > family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By th= e > way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's wh= en > Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep doing my part to promote a pe= ace > settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing israe= li > government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and > justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the > situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid > things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom I > admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at least = on > second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll ke= ep > saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as > antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some > sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. > whatever... piece of cake, I said... >=20 > Michael >=20 >=20 > le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day =E0 rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : >=20 >> I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. >>=20 >> I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: >>=20 >> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html >>=20 >> "The Israel Lobby" >>=20 >> In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby >> determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at >> the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit >> and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended >> talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is >> inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it >> coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence >> your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the >> extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; >> but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. >>=20 >> Roger >>=20 >> On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >>> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to suppor= t >>> this >>> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time >>> someone >>> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonsens= e. >>> One >>> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jewis= h >>> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it probab= ly >>> is, >>> then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years as caus= es of >>> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from th= e >>> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination of Rabi= n--as >>> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassin.= ) >>>=20 >>> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen >>> anything to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions wit= hin >>> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being >>> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support >>> (e.g., >>> the ANC) were in its favor. >>>=20 >>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>> Ruth, >>> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always >>> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and >>> viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insens= itive >>> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There = is >>> and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sion= ism. >>> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region shoul= d >>> stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british l= eft >>> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >>> Shalom. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : >>>=20 >>>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working >>>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect = the >>>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting eac= h >>>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing >>>> this--I >>>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--bu= t >>>> it's >>>> just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want pe= ace, >>>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of >>>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really= , >>>> what >>>> are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every = day, >>>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the >>>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the groun= d >>>> it's >>>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs >>>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings= ! to >>>> go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money= to a >>>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as other= s >>>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly = moral >>>> person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in t= his >>>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new >>>>> signatures >>>>> have been added. >>>>>=20 >>>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >>>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought= you >>>>>> should see it. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited s= ite, >>>>>> go >>>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>>> The Guardian >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Is= raeli >>>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army = in >>>>>> Gaza >>>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every >>>>>> Israeli >>>>>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since = the >>>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palesti= nian >>>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbisho= p >>>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now So= uth >>>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under aparth= eid. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apar= theid >>>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to aparthe= id >>>>>> was >>>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which ena= bled >>>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmen= tal >>>>>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boy= cott >>>>>> of >>>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European >>>>>> countries, >>>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents.= It >>>>>> is >>>>>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If = not >>>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Re= ad >>>>>> the >>>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Edu= ardo >>>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf S= oueif >>>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that t= he >>>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist;= it >>>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, be= cause >>>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "loo= ked >>>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do= , the >>>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shal= l be >>>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the exist= ing >>>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say th= at >>>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >>>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>>>=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>> - >>>> -- >>>> --------- >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mai= l. >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:34:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Those other countries aren't US client states.=20 Israel is. Which may be why there's so much=20 comment about it. There's very little we can do=20 as US citizens to persuade the Sudanese govt to=20 behave differently, short of persuading our govt=20 to invade. There's a great deal we could do about=20 Israel but don't for sentimental reasons. I'm not sure I'd advocate preferrentially=20 starving grown men. We make up something less=20 than 25% of the world's population as it is. Mark At 03:43 PM 12/19/2006, you wrote: >thank you michael! she may be right-wing but sure isn't in this article. >women are in prison in iraq, afraid to leave their homes--see article this >week in boston globe. burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone >pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other= middle >east country. >and it seems that only israel gets commented up on on this list serv--no >articles or comments abt how minorities are abused in other mid-east >countries, or abt darfur where there is a holocaust going on, or as I heard >on INN yesterday there's a new repot that says 10 million female fetuses >have been aborted or newborn baby girls killed--mostly by being buried= alive >or by having sand etc poured into their noses. or abt govt violence in= latin >america. >if left-wing has something to do w/ believing that every human being has >human rights & must be fed & given opportunities than let's think abt the >75% of the hungry people in this world who are women and children. how many >jews are there in the world-- to be blamed for so many problems! >of course israel has done awful things, and peace is finally the only= answer >and of course war kills the innocent--now 80-85% of people killed in wars >are civilians--those who are the victims of the very regime the others are >trying to overthrow. and regimes that take over through violence usually >turn into tyrannical govts. ok, I realize I'm lecturing and over the >top--better stop drinking coffee for awhile & get back to work--but to be a >left-wing jew in the US these days is to see some contradictions. > > >On 12/19/06 3:25 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > > > Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger,=20 > the Kingsley Amis of her time and > > sex. > > Anyway, no need to get huffy. > > > > "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: > > Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian=20 > columnist who left the paper three > > years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html > > > > And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt=20 > both by the Soviet Union (end of > > one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of= said > > family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By= the > > way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's= when > > Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep=20 > doing my part to promote a peace > > settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing= israeli > > government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and > > justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the > > situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid > > things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom I > > admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at least= on > > second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll= keep > > saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as > > antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some > > sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. > > whatever... piece of cake, I said... > > > > Michael > > > > > > le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day =E0 rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : > > > >> I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. > >> > >> I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: > >> > >> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html > >> > >> "The Israel Lobby" > >> > >> In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby > >> determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at > >> the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit > >> and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended > >> talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is > >> inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it > >> coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence > >> your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the > >> extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; > >> but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. > >> > >> Roger > >> > >> On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >>> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to= support > >>> this > >>> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time > >>> someone > >>> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it.= Nonsense. > >>> One > >>> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my= Jewish > >>> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it= probably > >>> is, > >>> then I point my finger at the actions of=20 > Israel in recent years as causes of > >>> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from= the > >>> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister=20 > after the assassination of Rabin--as > >>> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's= assassin.) > >>> > >>> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen > >>> anything to convince me that it will help=20 > strangthen those factions within > >>> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being > >>> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support > >>> (e.g., > >>> the ANC) were in its favor. > >>> > >>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: > >>> Ruth, > >>> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always > >>> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure= and > >>> viable frontier between two states and do=20 > not consider myself an insensitive > >>> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There= is > >>> and there always was a left-wing=20 > anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. > >>> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region= should > >>> stay well aware of this...and of the very=20 > peculiar history of british left > >>> wing intelligentsia in that respect. > >>> Shalom. > >>> > >>> > >>> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : > >>> > >>>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working > >>>> non-stop--but after reading this must say,=20 > please, what do you expect the > >>>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting= each > >>>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing > >>>> this--I > >>>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded= Lebanon--but > >>>> it's > >>>> just an impossible situation--the israelis=20 > are tired, too, and want peace, > >>>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of > >>>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews,= dead--really, > >>>> what > >>>> are they to do? there are about 40=20 > terrorist attempts in israel every day, > >>>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the > >>>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the= ground > >>>> it's > >>>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many= yrs > >>>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising=20 > $60,000 from poetry readings! to > >>>> go to the poorest countries in the world=20 > and have given a lot of money to a > >>>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as= others > >>>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't=20 > mean to say I'm a particularly moral > >>>> person, just to say I haven't been totally=20 > oblivious to suffering in this > >>>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new > >>>>> signatures > >>>>> have been added. > >>>>> > >>>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at > >>>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> david chirot spotted this on the=20 > Guardian Unlimited site and thought you > >>>>>> should see it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To see this story with its related links=20 > on the Guardian Unlimited site, > >>>>>> go > >>>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace > >>>>>> Friday December 15 2006 > >>>>>> The Guardian > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon,=20 > albeit daily violated by Israeli > >>>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army= in > >>>>>> Gaza > >>>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every > >>>>>> Israeli > >>>>>> death; more than 200, many of them=20 > children, have been killed since the > >>>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted,=20 > human rights violated as Palestinian > >>>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For= archbishop > >>>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former=20 > ANC military commander now South > >>>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the > >>>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black=20 > South Africans under apartheid. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right= of > >>>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply=20 > weaponry. The challenge of apartheid > >>>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to= apartheid > >>>>>> was > >>>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and=20 > UN-imposed sanctions which enabled > >>>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers,=20 > film-makers and non-governmental > >>>>>> organisations have called for a=20 > comparable academic and cultural boycott > >>>>>> of > >>>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been > >>>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European > >>>>>> countries, > >>>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by=20 > some brave Israeli dissidents. It > >>>>>> is > >>>>>> now time for others to join the campaign=20 > - as Primo Levi asked: "If not > >>>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our > >>>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call.= Read > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger=20 > Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo > >>>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson=20 > Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif > >>>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others > >>>>>> > >>>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk > >>>>>> > >>>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that= the > >>>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not=20 > grant Israel its right to exist; it > >>>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national=20 > home, as he says it did, because > >>>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The=20 > British government merely "looked > >>>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More=20 > importantly, he omits, as many do, the > >>>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly=20 > understood that nothing shall be > >>>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and=20 > religious rights of the existing > >>>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say= that > >>>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by= Pandora > >>>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 > >>>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>> >- > >>>> -- > >>>> --------- > >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus= mail. > >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:00:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061219162915.05ffad80@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable c'mon, i'm not suggesting starving grown men--just pointing out that women = & children of color are disproportionately poor. i know the argument abt 'client states'--but there's plenty we cd do abt pressuring the US to give more to other countries--I really doubt that's wh= y there is so much commentary abt it--it seems so much more emotional than that. On 12/19/06 4:34 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Those other countries aren't US client states. > Israel is. Which may be why there's so much > comment about it. There's very little we can do > as US citizens to persuade the Sudanese govt to > behave differently, short of persuading our govt > to invade. There's a great deal we could do about > Israel but don't for sentimental reasons. >=20 > I'm not sure I'd advocate preferrentially > starving grown men. We make up something less > than 25% of the world's population as it is. >=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 > At 03:43 PM 12/19/2006, you wrote: >> thank you michael! she may be right-wing but sure isn't in this article. >> women are in prison in iraq, afraid to leave their homes--see article th= is >> week in boston globe. burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--any= one >> pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other mi= ddle >> east country. >> and it seems that only israel gets commented up on on this list serv--no >> articles or comments abt how minorities are abused in other mid-east >> countries, or abt darfur where there is a holocaust going on, or as I he= ard >> on INN yesterday there's a new repot that says 10 million female fetuses >> have been aborted or newborn baby girls killed--mostly by being buried a= live >> or by having sand etc poured into their noses. or abt govt violence in l= atin >> america. >> if left-wing has something to do w/ believing that every human being has >> human rights & must be fed & given opportunities than let's think abt th= e >> 75% of the hungry people in this world who are women and children. how m= any >> jews are there in the world-- to be blamed for so many problems! >> of course israel has done awful things, and peace is finally the only an= swer >> and of course war kills the innocent--now 80-85% of people killed in war= s >> are civilians--those who are the victims of the very regime the others a= re >> trying to overthrow. and regimes that take over through violence usually >> turn into tyrannical govts. ok, I realize I'm lecturing and over the >> top--better stop drinking coffee for awhile & get back to work--but to b= e a >> left-wing jew in the US these days is to see some contradictions. >>=20 >>=20 >> On 12/19/06 3:25 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wro= te: >>=20 >>> Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger, >> the Kingsley Amis of her time and >>> sex. >>> Anyway, no need to get huffy. >>>=20 >>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>> Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian >> columnist who left the paper three >>> years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : >>>=20 >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html >>>=20 >>> And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt >> both by the Soviet Union (end of >>> one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of s= aid >>> family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By = the >>> way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's = when >>> Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep >> doing my part to promote a peace >>> settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing isr= aeli >>> government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and >>> justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the >>> situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid >>> things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom = I >>> admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at leas= t on >>> second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll = keep >>> saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as >>> antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some >>> sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. >>> whatever... piece of cake, I said... >>>=20 >>> Michael >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day =E0 rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : >>>=20 >>>> I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. >>>>=20 >>>> I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: >>>>=20 >>>> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html >>>>=20 >>>> "The Israel Lobby" >>>>=20 >>>> In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby >>>> determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at >>>> the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit >>>> and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended >>>> talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is >>>> inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it >>>> coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence >>>> your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the >>>> extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; >>>> but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. >>>>=20 >>>> Roger >>>>=20 >>>> On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >>>>> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to supp= ort >>>>> this >>>>> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time >>>>> someone >>>>> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonse= nse. >>>>> One >>>>> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jew= ish >>>>> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it prob= ably >>>>> is, >>>>> then I point my finger at the actions of >> Israel in recent years as causes of >>>>> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from = the >>>>> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister >> after the assassination of Rabin--as >>>>> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassi= n.) >>>>>=20 >>>>> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen >>>>> anything to convince me that it will help >> strangthen those factions within >>>>> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being >>>>> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to suppor= t >>>>> (e.g., >>>>> the ANC) were in its favor. >>>>>=20 >>>>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>>>> Ruth, >>>>> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always >>>>> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure a= nd >>>>> viable frontier between two states and do >> not consider myself an insensitive >>>>> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. Ther= e is >>>>> and there always was a left-wing >> anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. >>>>> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region sho= uld >>>>> stay well aware of this...and of the very >> peculiar history of british left >>>>> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >>>>> Shalom. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : >>>>>=20 >>>>>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am workin= g >>>>>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, >> please, what do you expect the >>>>>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting e= ach >>>>>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing >>>>>> this--I >>>>>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--= but >>>>>> it's >>>>>> just an impossible situation--the israelis >> are tired, too, and want peace, >>>>>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands o= f >>>>>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--real= ly, >>>>>> what >>>>>> are they to do? there are about 40 >> terrorist attempts in israel every day, >>>>>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the >>>>>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the gro= und >>>>>> it's >>>>>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many y= rs >>>>>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising >> $60,000 from poetry readings! to >>>>>> go to the poorest countries in the world >> and have given a lot of money to a >>>>>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as oth= ers >>>>>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't >> mean to say I'm a particularly moral >>>>>> person, just to say I haven't been totally >> oblivious to suffering in this >>>>>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new >>>>>>> signatures >>>>>>> have been added. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >>>>>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> david chirot spotted this on the >> Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >>>>>>>> should see it. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> To see this story with its related links >> on the Guardian Unlimited site, >>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>>>>> The Guardian >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, >> albeit daily violated by Israeli >>>>>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli arm= y in >>>>>>>> Gaza >>>>>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every >>>>>>>> Israeli >>>>>>>> death; more than 200, many of them >> children, have been killed since the >>>>>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, >> human rights violated as Palestinian >>>>>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbis= hop >>>>>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former >> ANC military commander now South >>>>>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>>>>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black >> South Africans under apartheid. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right = of >>>>>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply >> weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >>>>>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apart= heid >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and >> UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >>>>>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, >> film-makers and non-governmental >>>>>>>> organisations have called for a >> comparable academic and cultural boycott >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has bee= n >>>>>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European >>>>>>>> countries, >>>>>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by >> some brave Israeli dissidents. It >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> now time for others to join the campaign >> - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>>>>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>>>>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. = Read >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger >> Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >>>>>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson >> Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >>>>>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that= the >>>>>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not >> grant Israel its right to exist; it >>>>>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national >> home, as he says it did, because >>>>>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The >> British government merely "looked >>>>>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More >> importantly, he omits, as many do, the >>>>>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly >> understood that nothing shall be >>>>>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and >> religious rights of the existing >>>>>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say = that >>>>>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pando= ra >>>>>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>>>>>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= --->> >> >> >> - >>>>>> -- >>>>>> --------- >>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus m= ail. >>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:02:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Fwd: from Abigail Child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Abigail Child Subject: recent publications A note about recent publications for all of those curious and who do not know of the following: AN EXPERIMENT IN AUTOBIOGRAPHY, poetry in markszine.com Editor-in-chief and webmaster Deb King; special issue (2006) curated by Carla Harryman web address: http://markszine.com/703/ac/ind.htm NOTES ON SINCERITY AND IRONY, chapter essay in Stan Brakhage Filmmaker, edited by David James (Temple University Press 2005) THIS IS CALLED MOVING: A Poetics of Film, full-length book divided into three sections: Sex Talk =96on women and film and theory; Matrix =97on work by colleagues, contemporary and historical; Interrogations =97on my work: interviews, articles and transcripts. (University of Alabama Press, 2005). About this book: "This is a splendidly original collection of essays, comments, and interviews. Child has published books of poetry (Mob, 1994; Scatter Matrix, 1996) in the same venues as the so-called L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E poets, and her writing style sometimes resembles the fragmented but idea-filled paragraphs one finds in the prose of Charles Bernstein (A Poetics, 1992) or Ronald Silliman (The New Sentence, 1987). Here she complicates and expands their work substantially, as she transposes the L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E poet emphasis on writing onto the medium of film. Whereas the L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E poets seem always to be rewriting Gertrude Stein, Child's work seems much more expansive, with a richer range of reference.... Including especially moving forays into issues of sexuality, the totality of the book gives a fine description of the potential of experimental filmmaking. Tom Gunning provides a concise, instructive foreword. Summing Up: Highly recommended."=97S.C. Dillon, Bates College. All the books are available on Amazon or your local book store. Enjoy! Abigail Abigail Child 303 East 8th Street #6F New York, NY 10009 212-673-1608 http://www.abigailchild.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:08:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Fwd: Ron Padgett and Kenward Elmslie Poetry Reading In-Reply-To: <001501c72081$dd68a040$187acd80@caset.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In conjunction with the exhibition Joe Brainard: People of the World, Relax!! the UB Art Galleries and the University at Buffalo Poetry and Rare Books Collection are proud to present two special events. On Friday, January 26, 2007 at 8pm Ron Padgett and Kenward Elmslie will give a Poetry Reading at the Albright-Knox Art Gallery. The event, Mixed Media, is part of the Gusto at the Gallery Series and will also feature local favorites the David Kane Quartet and a site specific performance by Nimbus Dance. Poet Ron Padgett grew up in Tulsa, where he met Joe Brainard at the age of six. Padgett's recent books include the memoir, Oklahoma Tough: My Father, King of the Tulsa Bootleggers, the collection of poems, You Never Know, and Joe: A Memoir of Joe Brainard. As a member of the first generation New York School of Poets, Kenward Elmslie introduced contemporary poetry to Broadway in the form of musicals. Among his many books of poetry, Kenward Elmslie has also created work for the musical stage: Postcards on Parade, City Junket, and an adaptation of Truman Capote's The Grass Harp. On Thursday, February 1, 2007 at 1pm a Brown Bag Lunch Lecture by Steven Clay will take place at the UB Art Gallery in the First Floor Gallery. Steven Clay, publisher of Granary Books, is an editor, curator and archivist specializing in the American art and literature of the 1960s, '70s and '80s. He is the author, with Rodney Phillips, of A Secret Location on the Lower East Side: Adventures in Writing 1960-1980. Both events are free and open to the public. Please see the complete press release attached to this e-mail. Thanks and let me know if any additional info is necessary. Anne Anne Reed External Affairs Officer UB Art Galleries 201 A Center for the Arts, Buffalo, NY 14260-6000 annereed@buffalo.edu 716.645.6912 x1424 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:10:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And women and children in the occupied territories, I'd wager. So may we expect from you a call for Israel to end its illegal occupation? I imagine that during the heyday of apartheid there were all kinds of "good liberals" in South Africa saying that in the end, we treat "our" blacks so much better than they treat each other when they get a chance, at least they're not starving, goodness knows, so why would you people in the rich countries dare advocate sanctions, which only hurt the people you're trying to help? And no, it's not lost on me that Israel was a staunch supporter of South African apartheid (despite the presence of ferocious anti- Semites in the SA governing elite), and doubtless learned a few things about how to build a bantustan and even how to foment internecine warfare (remember the ANC-Inkatha wars of the 1980s?). Nor that they supplied experts in counter-insurgency (even back then they called it counter-terrorism) to the Argentine and Guatemalan juntas, and to the Nicaraguan contras (having gotten along nicely with Somoza). Or are those facts too emotional? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C'mon, we're already giving them . . . what is it? . . . one half of =20 one percent of our GNP? . . . and that doesn't include all the free scrap metal =20 we've thrown at some of them over the years. Hal "The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." --Casey Stengel Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Dec 19, 2006, at 5:00 PM, Ruth Lepson wrote: > c'mon, i'm not suggesting starving grown men--just pointing out =20 > that women & > children of color are disproportionately poor. > i know the argument abt 'client states'--but there's plenty we cd =20 > do abt > pressuring the US to give more to other countries--I really doubt =20 > that's why > there is so much commentary abt it--it seems so much more emotional =20= > than > that. > > > On 12/19/06 4:34 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > >> Those other countries aren't US client states. >> Israel is. Which may be why there's so much >> comment about it. There's very little we can do >> as US citizens to persuade the Sudanese govt to >> behave differently, short of persuading our govt >> to invade. There's a great deal we could do about >> Israel but don't for sentimental reasons. >> >> I'm not sure I'd advocate preferrentially >> starving grown men. We make up something less >> than 25% of the world's population as it is. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 03:43 PM 12/19/2006, you wrote: >>> thank you michael! she may be right-wing but sure isn't in this =20 >>> article. >>> women are in prison in iraq, afraid to leave their homes--see =20 >>> article this >>> week in boston globe. burchill is right abt women's rights & =20 >>> israel--anyone >>> pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any =20 >>> other middle >>> east country. >>> and it seems that only israel gets commented up on on this list =20 >>> serv--no >>> articles or comments abt how minorities are abused in other mid-east >>> countries, or abt darfur where there is a holocaust going on, or =20 >>> as I heard >>> on INN yesterday there's a new repot that says 10 million female =20 >>> fetuses >>> have been aborted or newborn baby girls killed--mostly by being =20 >>> buried alive >>> or by having sand etc poured into their noses. or abt govt =20 >>> violence in latin >>> america. >>> if left-wing has something to do w/ believing that every human =20 >>> being has >>> human rights & must be fed & given opportunities than let's think =20= >>> abt the >>> 75% of the hungry people in this world who are women and =20 >>> children. how many >>> jews are there in the world-- to be blamed for so many problems! >>> of course israel has done awful things, and peace is finally the =20 >>> only answer >>> and of course war kills the innocent--now 80-85% of people killed =20= >>> in wars >>> are civilians--those who are the victims of the very regime the =20 >>> others are >>> trying to overthrow. and regimes that take over through violence =20 >>> usually >>> turn into tyrannical govts. ok, I realize I'm lecturing and over the >>> top--better stop drinking coffee for awhile & get back to work--=20 >>> but to be a >>> left-wing jew in the US these days is to see some contradictions. >>> >>> >>> On 12/19/06 3:25 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" =20 >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger, >>> the Kingsley Amis of her time and >>>> sex. >>>> Anyway, no need to get huffy. >>>> >>>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>>> Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian >>> columnist who left the paper three >>>> years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : >>>> >>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html >>>> >>>> And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt >>> both by the Soviet Union (end of >>>> one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another =20 >>>> part of said >>>> family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of =20 >>>> cake... By the >>>> way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon =20 >>>> (that's when >>>> Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep >>> doing my part to promote a peace >>>> settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep =20 >>>> criticizing israeli >>>> government each time they play against peance and justice (note: =20= >>>> and >>>> justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the >>>> situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such =20 >>>> stupid >>>> things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of =20 >>>> him whom I >>>> admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share =20 >>>> at least on >>>> second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) =20 >>>> AND I'll keep >>>> saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as >>>> antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk =20 >>>> of some >>>> sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. >>>> whatever... piece of cake, I said... >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day =E0 rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : >>>> >>>>> I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. >>>>> >>>>> I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html >>>>> >>>>> "The Israel Lobby" >>>>> >>>>> In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any =20 >>>>> lobby >>>>> determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim =20 >>>>> itself at >>>>> the US government which underpins the State of Israel with =20 >>>>> implicit >>>>> and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group =20 >>>>> recommended >>>>> talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is >>>>> inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not =20 >>>>> think it >>>>> coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to =20 >>>>> influence >>>>> your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the >>>>> extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the =20 >>>>> Middle East; >>>>> but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. >>>>> >>>>> Roger >>>>> >>>>> On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >>>>>> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently =20 >>>>>> to support >>>>>> this >>>>>> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up =20 >>>>>> every time >>>>>> someone >>>>>> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against =20 >>>>>> it. Nonsense. >>>>>> One >>>>>> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked =20= >>>>>> my Jewish >>>>>> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as =20 >>>>>> it probably >>>>>> is, >>>>>> then I point my finger at the actions of >>> Israel in recent years as causes of >>>>>> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of =20 >>>>>> Israel from the >>>>>> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister >>> after the assassination of Rabin--as >>>>>> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's =20 >>>>>> assassin.) >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not =20= >>>>>> seen >>>>>> anything to convince me that it will help >>> strangthen those factions within >>>>>> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was =20= >>>>>> being >>>>>> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to =20= >>>>>> support >>>>>> (e.g., >>>>>> the ANC) were in its favor. >>>>>> >>>>>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>>>>> Ruth, >>>>>> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have =20= >>>>>> always >>>>>> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, =20 >>>>>> secure and >>>>>> viable frontier between two states and do >>> not consider myself an insensitive >>>>>> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify =20 >>>>>> me. There is >>>>>> and there always was a left-wing >>> anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. >>>>>> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the =20 >>>>>> region should >>>>>> stay well aware of this...and of the very >>> peculiar history of british left >>>>>> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >>>>>> Shalom. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit= : >>>>>> >>>>>>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am =20= >>>>>>> working >>>>>>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, >>> please, what do you expect the >>>>>>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are =20 >>>>>>> fighting each >>>>>>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm =20 >>>>>>> writing >>>>>>> this--I >>>>>>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded =20 >>>>>>> Lebanon--but >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> just an impossible situation--the israelis >>> are tired, too, and want peace, >>>>>>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of =20 >>>>>>> thousands of >>>>>>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, =20 >>>>>>> dead--really, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> are they to do? there are about 40 >>> terrorist attempts in israel every day, >>>>>>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that =20 >>>>>>> unless the >>>>>>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on =20 >>>>>>> the ground >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent =20= >>>>>>> many yrs >>>>>>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising >>> $60,000 from poetry readings! to >>>>>>> go to the poorest countries in the world >>> and have given a lot of money to a >>>>>>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well =20= >>>>>>> as others >>>>>>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't >>> mean to say I'm a particularly moral >>>>>>> person, just to say I haven't been totally >>> oblivious to suffering in this >>>>>>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 =20= >>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>> signatures >>>>>>>> have been added. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc =20 >>>>>>>> appears at >>>>>>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> david chirot spotted this on the >>> Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >>>>>>>>> should see it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To see this story with its related links >>> on the Guardian Unlimited site, >>>>>>>>> go >>>>>>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>>>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>>>>>> The Guardian >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, >>> albeit daily violated by Israeli >>>>>>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the =20 >>>>>>>>> Israeli army in >>>>>>>>> Gaza >>>>>>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed =20 >>>>>>>>> for every >>>>>>>>> Israeli >>>>>>>>> death; more than 200, many of them >>> children, have been killed since the >>>>>>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, >>> human rights violated as Palestinian >>>>>>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For =20 >>>>>>>>> archbishop >>>>>>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former >>> ANC military commander now South >>>>>>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation =20= >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black >>> South Africans under apartheid. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate =20= >>>>>>>>> right of >>>>>>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply >>> weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >>>>>>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response =20 >>>>>>>>> to apartheid >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and >>> UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >>>>>>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, >>> film-makers and non-governmental >>>>>>>>> organisations have called for a >>> comparable academic and cultural boycott >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call =20 >>>>>>>>> has been >>>>>>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many =20 >>>>>>>>> European >>>>>>>>> countries, >>>>>>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by >>> some brave Israeli dissidents. It >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> now time for others to join the campaign >>> - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>>>>>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to =20 >>>>>>>>> support our >>>>>>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott =20= >>>>>>>>> call. Read >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger >>> Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >>>>>>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson >>> Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >>>>>>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December =20 >>>>>>>>> 9) that the >>>>>>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not >>> grant Israel its right to exist; it >>>>>>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national >>> home, as he says it did, because >>>>>>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The >>> British government merely "looked >>>>>>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More >>> importantly, he omits, as many do, the >>>>>>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly >>> understood that nothing shall be >>>>>>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and >>> religious rights of the existing >>>>>>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible =20 >>>>>>>>> to say that >>>>>>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt =20 >>>>>>>>> London >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________________________=20= >>>>>>>> __ >>>>>>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered =20 >>>>>>>> by Pandora >>>>>>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>>>>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=20= >>> ------->> >>>>> >>> - >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> --------- >>>>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-=20 >>>>>>> virus mail. >>>>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:40:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: chocolate waters Subject: Celebrate Inner Christmas - A Wonderful Movie For You In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi everyone, i know this is off topic, but it's so kewl i couldn't resist passing it on. happy holidaze, choc "Every year at this time 3 things happen: Nature gets dark, silent and still. Homes, streets and shops sparkle with Christmas decorations And mixed moods from delight to depression enter your soul." My friend. Lynn Jericho, has made a wonderful little movie about a new way to celebrate Christmas. "Nothing to wrap, eat, drink or decorate. Just a thoughtful way to renew yourself. *** Inner Christmas *** To see the Inner Christmas movie, just click on this link. http://www.theinnerchristmasmovie.com This movie is for all human hearts regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs. No matter how you feel about any part of the Christmas season, you will find something meaningful in Inner Christmas. Please forward this to all your friends, colleagues and family. Share the wondrous gifts of Inner Christmas with them." http://www.theinnerchristmasmovie.com Happy Holidays everyone! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:53:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: the cut-up & revolt against programming Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Burroughs oftein cited Brion Gysin as the source of his interest in the cut-ups, also Gysin's remark that writing lagged fifty years painting. Burroughs' interest in the cut-ups is in a number of related areas. One is that by cutting up texts, one is "break(ing) through in the grey room" where the program of edited reality films is made. This is to break down control--the control of events as pre-concstructed by the total work of art of language-image-sound which is imposed on one as "reality" in an unalterable sequence of events--i.e. a programming, as Burroughs notes the Mayan calendar is an instruemnt of control, so Time magazine and the media are instruments of programmed control. Burroughs' ultimate aim stated over and over, is to get rid of written language and replace it with a visual pictographic/hieroglyphic notation which can be transmitted silently--no sound articulated in the mind at all--direct transmission along the lines of telepathy. (His interest in yage was inspired in part by claims he had heard that it enabled one to communicate telepathically.) This form of transmission has as it goal to liberate one in terms of time and space travel. Via the cut-up, the element of chance is opened up to--and when chance flows through, the hidden face of both control and its breaking down can be found. Patterns emerge that were previously hidden, revealing on the one hand hidden orders, and on the other, poetentialites for their breakdown and reconfiguration. The entropic/negentropic possibilities of the elements which with one works, the areas in which uncertainty moves among order and chaos, noise and music, iamge and decomposition become avaiable as an area in which on can live ouside the imposed controls especially of language and programming. This is introduced in his first book, Junkie, with Burroughs' emphasis on the contingent which ends the statement following the small "Glossary" section to the book. "Not only do the words change meanings but meanings vary locally at the same time. A final glossary, therefore, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." (A great example of this exists in the poetry of Francois Villon, who worked simulatenously, within a poem, a line, in both the common spoken language and in the "jargon", the secret language of the vast criminal networks spread nomadically throughout the France of his time. In reading Villon, one finds simultaneously existing language which is of great clarity and force, and language which is in many instances as inpenetrable as the egyptian heiroglyphics before the finding of the Rosetta Stone. The emphasis on visuality--Burroughs worked with film and sound recrodings on cut-ups and later in life beacme a painter--using randomness of shooting boards of his paintings with guns to release chance forms as well as explode the colors in chance conigurations--this emphasis on visuality leading the way goes back to the beginning of modernism. Modernism is first defined by Baudelaire in "The Painter of Everyday Life": "He (the painter "ceaselesly journeying across the great human desert" of the city) is looking for that quality which you must allow me to call modernity; for I know of no better word to express what I have in mind. He makes it his business to extract from fashion whatever element of it may contain of poetry within history, to distill the eternal from the transitory . . . By 'modernity' I mean the ephermeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is eternal and immutable." Baudelaire and Burroughs both use the word "fugiitive" and Baudeliare also uses a word Olson often employs--the "contingent". It's very intereting that Baudelaire finds the artist of modernity to be a painter in that Baudelaire himself invented the prosepoem, whcih is a response to the rhythms of modernity in the rapidly changing urban envirirnment, in the speeding up of modes of transport, perception and communication and process of reproduction of words and images. (Baudelaire portrays the painter of modernity--his example is Constantin Guys--as the opposite of the flanuer--Guys is always hurrying, hurrying--a purposeful cousin to Poe's dromomanical "Man in the Crowd" or De Quincey's opium eater's endless walks around night time London, moving in a kind of psychogeogrpahical derive well before the wine drinking Lettristes and Situationistes.) (Baudelaire is also the translator of Poe and De Quincey.) Yet what is beginning to propel greater freedom in painting is the advent of something Baudelaire is antagonistic towards--photography. It is new forms of visuality in a changing painting and in photography which are leading the way in changing in approaches to thinking about the elements of their media, which eventually find their way into writing. (In "Nature" Emerson also notes a changing visuality is opening literally "new frontiers"--he notes how things look differently at different rates of speed--already the "estrangement" and "aleination" effect can be produced by riding in a carriage, but how much more so the ways things are seen from the increasing speeds of the locomotive. Like Poe's "Purloined Letter" for Emerson--as for Baudelaire's painter and as photography is beginning to show--"the blank and ruin we see in nature is within our own eye". That is, the "new world" and "original relation with the universe" come with a revolution in one's "ways of seeing things" so to speak. What becomes found, discovered, is that whih like Poe's letter is hidden in plain sight. Or as i prefer to pharse it hidden in plain site/sight/cite. Changes in seeing become ways to break down the programming of Burroughs' grey room of control which is imposed by written language as programmable, a contract by which one is bound. "If it is not in writing it never happened" is a sign frequently seen in offices of bureaucary and institutions of control--social services, legal system etc are sites one often finds this dire warning--or sympathetic "word to the wise" depending on th way you want to take it at any particular moment. Although not recognized until about fifty years later, Lautremont in 1868/9 in Malodoror already recognizes the role that chance will play in the revolt against programmed perception and language, when he writes of the chance meeting of a sewing machine and an umbrella on an operating table. The presence of the sewing mchine on an operating table isn't so far fetched--after all, like the doctor, it is a device for suturing-(Burrough's Dr Benway is a kind of anti-suturing being) -later to become the operation of a film editor on the editing table, or the cutting up and suturing of images and texts in cut-ups. The umbrella?-let the mind start racing with associations! As i heard a woman say at bus stop, brandishing her umbrella on an overcast morning--"ain't nobody gonna rain on MY parade!" Damn straight! The role of chnace and visuality--modern visual poetry is usually said to begin with Mallarme's text, "A Throw of the dice will Never Abolish Chance". In Dada Art and Anti-Art hans Richter writes that the pioneer of chance in dada is the painter/poet Hans/Jean Arp. Before the tossed "word slads" of the poets, Arp had discovered by chance the freedom in chance: working with some colored paper forms he couldn't get to work "right" in trying to exprss himself, he threw the pices up in the air and let them fall on the floor. Looking at them a little later he realzied with a shock they were expressing exaclty what he had been after,m yet incapble of doing on his own. He glued the piece in the patterns in which they had fallen and from there continued to work with chance in his visual/relief works. (Arp is also an overlooked, very good poet, in both French and German.) "Chance became our tradmark" Richter writes of the Dadaists. Chnace was a great stimulatr and opener ofquestions whith which Burroughs also works in with his cut-ups: "Was it the artist's unconscious mind, or a power outside him, that had spoken? Was a mysterious "collborator" at work, a power in which one could place one's trust? Was it part of oneself, or a combination of factors uite beyond anyone's control?" Richter sees the Dada activities as forerunners of Ujung's ideas and explorations of synchronicity. " . . . the use of chance had opened up an important new diemnsion in art: the techniquesof free asosociation, fragmenetary trians of thought, unexpected juxtapostions of words and sounds. In the field o viual art this new freedom had consequences that were possibly even more far-reaching." Re the question abt why this articular mmoment i wrote at the appropriate place, comments, re an important influence in the 1950's on paiting, poetry, happenings etc etc--the painter Robert Motherwell translated and edited The dada Painters and Poets, still today a great and influential anthology. I think the role of art critic played by both Ashberry and O'Hara (and Ashbery's translations) were also very influential in brining things learned froom painting into writing. there is also a great infleunce inchanges in music at the time, inperomance and hapenings and in films both "undergroiund" and New Wave, with Godard's making use of jump -cuts etc--so finally about fifty years later than with dada, one finds these things begining to apear in american poetry. William Carlos Willaims noted by Robert Smithson when the latter visited him n late 1950's--that WCW emphasized the greater role painting and painters had for him than poets in his work. (Spring and All is dedicated to the painter Demuth.) (And influence very ealry on of the painters Gertrude Stein knew on her writing--esp Cubism--) Smithson writes that "the artit's art of looking" , a glance even, cnbe as solid as any work of art which is valued by society as an object, but the artit's art of looking is overlooked so to speak--without a ontineual devlopmen of the art of looking, while it may not be "valued", just as the time of the artits is not valued, only the work, the object, this also makes for a freedom from being programmed, it gives artist the opening to continue to have a "fugitive" art in Brroughs' sense, and one cotinually open to al the awareness es of chnance, of synchronicities. The desire is not to be imprisoned i an object, even in a process, but have an ongoing activity and expression which is outside of these systems of control. Burroughs in the Inroduction to Queer, writes that he writes to keep out of systems of control whch otherwise take charge of him, of anyone. Writing is a way out, outer space, outside of conventioanl programmed language and working to keep it this way. This is a way of life, not a series of theoretical or mapped poitions, formulae for production of new forms of conformity in langauge and visuality-- "be street smart, don't get caught" as the slogan of Coup de Grace says. One can see why Baudelaire first finds it in a painter hurryng through the streets to take in visually all that he can o make into his works later. And at that time also is advent of photography, also working wih the epehermal, fugivitvie and contingent in a cotinual egagement with the immutable and eternal. Photography introduces a new way of expereincing and recording, a whole new system both of control and of possibilities of wrecking control. I think one of lessons of Burroughs is against the idea of programming and becoming dependent on it--as he had been on junk and also on trust fund from the Burroughs family's adding machine patents. (His maternal grandafther was Ivy lee, one of the great master manipulators of word and image--the PR person who remaxde the onstrous robber baron Rockefller into lovableold guy handing out dimes. Hitler tried to hire Ivy lee, but that was one moster too monstrous for even a Rockefleler remodeler.) Andy Gricevich wrote some things very interesting about doubt in a recent post--the minute, the instant, i hear words like proramming,even when used to "program chance opeartions" and "strings of meaningless words"--there is a great deal of doubt about this being necesssarily wonderful. Say one creates a Deleuzian plateau of smooth menainglessness--into this smooth vacant surface will pour the war machines, systems of control--there is no resistance there, or sense of ways out being available at any moment. Likewise developing systems of language on the page which are supposed to be resistant and radical etc--if this is limited to effects on the page and among language only, it offers no resistance to the forces outside the page and its own closed systems, no matter who much syntax is disrupted and rearranged and moved about. Gertrude Stein, for example was a staunch anti-new Deal Republicanm and for al the assualts on syntax in last decades, the society and institutions have become ever more conservative. (A Marzist Russian critic of the Italian Futurists' tour of Russia just before WW1 noted that "paole in liberta" exists on the page, but not in prop0erty relations--one can disurpt and alter syntax and have no effects on property tax let alone alone property. This was something Stein understood herself.) That is one of reasons Burroughs has such an impact--he lived the thngs of which he wrote, and wrote to change his life. As he says in Junkie: "Junk is not about kicks. It is a way of life." You want to kick the junk habit, the language habit, the control habit, and the cut-ups and chance, synchornicities, become tools to create those fugitive words which want to retain being street smart and not being caught, much like Smithson's idea of the artist's "art of looking" which exists outside of objects of art. There is a kind of training going on in Burroughs and Smithson, a training to be a person living oustide of the control imposed on one in any forms as much as is possible. (One thinks of Olon's "stance towrds relaity" in some way with this also.) I think this is related to somethng Paul Celan wrote (in French in original)--"Poetry shold no longer impose itself, but expose itself." (And isn't photography an arftr of the exposure?--See Mura t Nemet-Nejat's very stimualting poetry/photogrpahy book The Peripheral Space of Photography from green Integer.) (Schwitters at the same time was writing things like: "There is no such thing as chance. A door may happen to fall shut, but this is not by chance. It is a conscious experience of the door, the door the door.") >From: Jim Andrews >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: responding to Ron Silliman's blog entry on the cutup >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:32:58 -0800 > >"But a lot more important than figuring out just who should get credit for >cutting up & folding in is fathoming just why this move at this exact >moment >in history. " >Silliman at http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com > >Ron quotes Burroughs, who famously remarked in the sixties that "The cut-up >method brings to writers the collage, which has been used by painters for >fifty years." Burroughs also notes its use in film and photography. > >The cutup involves a media artist's or painter's sense of the writer's >'material'. Usually when a writer speaks of 'the material' of his or her >writing, what's referred to is the subject matter and the little >sub-stories >or central metaphors, that sort of thing, not the media. > >Practice in other arts is generally more familiar with the energies and >methodologies of the cut. Partially because the grammars of image and sound >are not associated with so many rules and expectations. The structures of >sentences are predicated on scads of grammar rules. Whereas when images are >created, the rules are not so strong. To break the rules of grammar is >something that is seemingly more involved in breaking useful rules about >how >we make sense to one another than the same sorts of operations in the >visual >or sonic. The constraints upon the syntax of sentences are more deeply >structural than the constraints in visual art or sound art or even film. We >spend years learning the rules of grammar and how to write coherent >sentences, paragraphs, etc, and it's hard-won, a 'triumph into literacy'. >To >then start working with cutups involves a radically different branching out >into language. It's more a 'branching out' than simply a 'different step'. >It's multiple, combinatorial. > >So part of the answer to Ron's question of 'why this moment in history for >the cutup?' must surely be that the technique has been cultivated in many >other arts over the last hundred years. Even if the technique is more >problematical in writing, the adoption in literary practice has clearly >followed from practice in other arts. > >But why has this technique come to be more or less commonly practiced in so >many arts over the last century? > >Partly because when working with media such as film or audio tape, cutting >apart/together is necessary in even modest journalistic compositions, never >mind getting fancy with the razor blade and getting a feel for it as a >stroke of art. The materiality of film and recorded sound has been crucial, >I suspect. But even in modernism, there's collaging in things like Pound's >Cantos and widespread experimentation with juxtaposition in, say, >surrealism. Or the visual publications of Dada and Futurism. But it's less >developed as part of a world view. What distinguishes Burroughs in his work >with the audio and written cutup is not only that disturbing brilliant >trilogy and his influential audio cutups, but the world view he wrote about >and developed both in the work and in fascinating writings about the method >and its relations to cognition, addiction, originality, intention, >goverance, language as virus... > >It's not simply the work itself but the world view etched into the work and >life. Burroughs developed a whole poetics or philosophy of the cutup. The >cutup is not simply a technique of novelty for him. It's a technique to >help >alter one's own programming as a writer. It also involves questioning >conscious intention as the only way to worthwhile, consequential, even >'authentic' writing. "When you cut audio tape, the future leaks out." The >future of writing, for instance. > >One can look at the cutup as a consequence of explorations, as above, of >the >materiality of media, whether the medium is visual or sonic or textual. > >I would ask you to also look at the following and its relations with the >growing emphasis throughout the twentieth century on materiality. > >Concerning the language machine, I gotta say--with great enthusiasm--go out >and buy Martin Davis's book "The Universal Computer: From Leibniz to >Turing" >(the softcover version is called "Engines of Logic"). That book gives a >better sense than any other I've encountered of the proximity of things >like >the development of the computer to our whole sense of language. Davis >traces >the development of the computer from "Leibniz's dream" of basically a >language of symbolic logic and a machine capable of generating true >propositions in that language. > >I suggest that the cutup technique is part of a whole change in our >perspectives on language and machines--and ourselves. > >In the theory of computation, language is one of the central subjects of >study--in the same sort of way that billiard-ball-like-objects are a >central >concern of physics. In the theory of computation, language is studied as >strings of letters that can be generated, parsed, recognized, etc. The >theory looks at the *mathematical* properties of such collections of >strings, or languages. This isn't quite the same as an emphasis on the >materiality of language, but it's obviously related in that it involves >operations on strings of symbols, operations more or less independent of >the >'meaning' of the symbols. > >In the literary and general art history of the twentieth century, we see a >growing concern with and practice involving cutups and their related >techniques of collage and juxtaposition. Involving what were unusual >operations on language and image, tape, film, etc. And we also see the rise >of the theory of computation in which language is crucial. Language is >crucial to programmability and the whole idea of the computer, going all >the >way back to Leibniz. It has often been said that language draws a magic >circle round the realm of the thinkable. And the programmable. > >Our thoughts and images on what a human being is have changed in the >twentieth century, have expanded to include the notion that we are soft >machines. Just as Darwin gave us the conceptual framework to imagine >humanity proceeding from the evolution of the most primitive of life-forms, >so too has the theory of computation and its consequences given us the >conceptual tools to imagine the mind as a soft computing machine--that >wildly exceeds, at the moment, the capacities of all modern computers. >Still, there is no accepted proof that there exist thought processes of >which humans are capable and computers are not, in theory and eventual >practice. > >So that the fusion of language and logic, in the realization of Leibniz's >dream, results in machines and languages capable of thought itself. That is >what thought is. > >And the cutup becomes a type of operation on language involved in our >growing awareness of the poetential fecundity of dynamic process in >language. The cutup lets us peek into the interzones of texts, the >nether-worlds between the lines where the cyborg emerges. > >ja >http://vispo.com _________________________________________________________________ Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! Get it now http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:47:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: the Poets' Corner - Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline * * "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. It's what everything else isn't." --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of *Theodore Roethke** *thanks to* *James Finnegan* and more under Why Poetry Exists http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D62 * * * * *Newly featured Poets:* * * *James Cervantes* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D219 * * * *Jean Vengua* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D220 * * * *Jim Bennett* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D221 * * * *Ton van't Hof* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D222 * * * *Ivy Alvarez* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D223 * * * *Nick Carbo* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D224 * * * *Aaron Belz* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D225 * * * *Alicia Ostriker* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D226 * * * *Ellen Moody* * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetsonpoets&pa=3Dlist_pages_c= ategories&cid=3D67 * *__New__ by Already Featured Poets* *Elizabeth Smither* Buying a corset with my mother http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1670 Tonia, photographer http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1671 Flowers on my mother's casket http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1672 *Harriet Zinnes* Over and Under http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1673 *Charles Martin* Photos of brazil #302 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1677 Photos of brazil #303 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1678 Photos of brazil #304 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1679 Photos of brazil #305 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1680 Photos of brazil #306 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1681 Photos of brazil #307 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1682 Photos of brazil #308 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1683 Photos of brazil #309 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1684 Photos of brazil #310 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1685 Photos of brazil #311 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1686 Photos of brazil #312 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1687 Photos of brazil #313 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1688 Photos of brazil #314 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1689 Photos of brazil #315 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1690 Photos of brazil #316 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1692 Photos of brazil #317 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1693 Photos of brazil #318 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1694 Photos of brazil #319 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1695 Photos of brazil #320 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1696 Photos of brazil #321 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1697 Photos of brazil #322 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1698 Photos of brazil #323 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1699 Photos of brazil #324 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1700 Photos of brazil #325 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1701 Photos of brazil #326 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1702 Photos of brazil #327 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1703 Photos of brazil #327 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1703 Photos of brazil #328 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1704 Photos of brazil #329 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1705 Photos of brazil #330 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1706 Photos of brazil #331 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1707 Photos of brazil #332 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1708 Photos of brazil #333 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1709 Photos of brazil #334 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1710 Photos of brazil #335 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1711 Photos of brazil #336 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1712 Photos of brazil #337 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1713 Photos of brazil #338 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1714 Photos of brazil #339 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1715 Photos of brazil #340 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1716 Photos of brazil #341 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1717 Photos of brazil #342 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1718 *Martin John Walker* HOMAGE TO HEINE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1720 *Alan Sondheim* From the Alps /Swiss project http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1721 the problematic wages of desire on fire, yes sire, the wages of bon, wan http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1723 *Jon Corelis* Notes toward a definition of I http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1722 An advent calendar http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1821 *David Howard* FASCICLE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1729 THE SUNDAY PAINTER http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1730 AN EXTEMPORE TRAGEDY http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1731 from THE VOICES THAT GET UP http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1732 ON THE LINE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1733 SNAPSHOT http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1734 CHARM http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1735 OFF http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1736 THE THEOLOGY OF BEETLES http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1737 SUBTITLES http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1738 STICK FIGURES IN A CIRCLE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1740 AN ACCOUNT http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1741 from THE ART OF SEPARATION http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1742 YOU SAY IT'S YOUR BIRTHDAY http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1743 HEAR SAY http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1744 DECORATING THE PRESENT http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1745 CONCERT http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1746 COMPLETE WITH INSTRUCTIONS http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1747 TAKING SIDEWAYS http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1755 THE PERPETUAL BIRD http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1756 TO CAVAFY http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1757 FOR FERNANDO PESSOA http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1758 from THERE YOU GO http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1759 LAWYER'S POINT http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1760 HOME COMFORTS (after a painting by Eion Stevens) http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1762 A MOTHER'S STORY http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1763 THE HARRIER SUITE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1764 THE HELD AIR http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1765 JOANNA PAUL AT WANGANUI http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1766 LETTER TO CHARLES BRASCH http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1767 from THE WORLD WENT ROUND http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1768 from ON FIRST LOOKING http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1769 *Charles Martin* Whispers : 401 =96 402 =96 403 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1770 404-Whispers 405-ascension-406-407-circulate-408-hatching http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1771 Whispers : 409-dreamer http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1772 Whispers : 410-No Broken Dreams =96 411 =96 412-footprints http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1773 Whispers : 413-sunrises & sunsets =96 414 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1774 Whispers : 415-Reflections =96 416-cyclops =96 417 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1775 Whispers : 421-The ferry =96 422 =96 423 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1776 Whispers : 424-Homeward Bound =96 425 =96 426 =96 427 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1777 Whispers : 432-5 am =96 433-astute ankle =96 434 =96 435 =96 436 =96 437 = =96 438 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1778 Whispers : 443-questions =96 444 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1779 *Charles Martin* TWO1 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1783 TWO2 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1784 TWO3 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1785 TWO4 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1786 TWO5 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1787 TWO6 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1788 TWO7 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1789 TWO8 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1790 TWO9 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1791 TWO10 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1792 TWO11 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1793 TWO12 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1794 TWO13 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1795 TWO14 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1796 TWO15 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1797 TWO16 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1798 TWO17 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1799 TWO18 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1800 TWO19 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1801 *Under Poets on Poets ___Translations__* *By Jon Corelis - EURIPIDES' HIPPOLYTOS: A PERFORMANCE VERSION [work in progress] * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetsonpoets&pa=3Dlist_pages_c= ategories&cid=3D66 ** And *Ellen Moody* with : *VITTORIA** COLONNA* in English I write to vent the inward pain http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D171 Gone the gentle colors of the earth's spring http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D172 See that lovely juniper, pressed so hard, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D173 Look, how quiet the sea, peaceful the waves=97 http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D174 Why endlessly appeal to death's cold ear, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D175 To this torment has Love reduced my life: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D176 Love teaches me to feed on flames and tears; http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D177 When my tormented heart contracts with pain, http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D178 In the faithful heart a second spring comes http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D179 My most exalted Lord, I am writing http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D180 Love, you know all too well my foot never http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D181 Canzone: In this moment, cut off from my haven http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D182 A mosaic high on a wall, flakes of http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D183 And *VERONICA GAMBARA*: Stanzas [On the fleetingness of earthly goods] http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D184 Now hope has died http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D185 How welcome to my eyes this shady hill http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D186 Love assaulted my heart many times http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D187 I am not and hope never to be free http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D188 So intense is this grief http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D189 Torture me, cruel goddess: use your full strength http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D190 That bond my blest fate protected me by http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D191 Beautiful shining eyes http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D192 Unbind and weave into your golden hair http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D193 If in that radiant beautiful age http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D194 Far different forests, meadows, and mountains http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D195 I always respect the order by which I receive the contributions. With my felt acknowledgement to all those who have contributed to the Corner, and m= y best wishes for the festivities, *Anny Ballardini* http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:55:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi David, Thanks for the terrific post on Burroughs and the cutup. And the revolt against programming. Just one thing I'd like to comment on, and that's the "revolt against programming". If we are soft machines and the mind is basically software in a wetware body/brain, then we may strive to understand our own programming and re-program it, hopefully, when we suffer from its limitations, and scrap some nasty routines, and revolt against programming imposed on us by others...and react in other ways as well to programming in different situations. But a universal revolt against any and all programming misses the point that it's largely a matter of re-programming that is in order, given the inescapable condition of our minds themselves being programmable (and programmed) information processing systems. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:07:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, -- this is so reductive as an analysis i could just sit here and cry -- -- not to worry, an old bottle of scotch will do -- -- heidi On 12/19/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > Hi David, > > Thanks for the terrific post on Burroughs and the cutup. And the revolt > against programming. > > Just one thing I'd like to comment on, and that's the "revolt against > programming". > > If we are soft machines and the mind is basically software in a wetware > body/brain, then we may strive to understand our own programming and > re-program it, hopefully, when we suffer from its limitations, and scrap > some nasty routines, and revolt against programming imposed on us by > others...and react in other ways as well to programming in different > situations. But a universal revolt against any and all programming misses > the point that it's largely a matter of re-programming that is in order, > given the inescapable condition of our minds themselves being programmable > (and programmed) information processing systems. > > ja > http://vispo.com > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:49:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Happy Holidays from the Poetry Project In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Love bugs, It=B9s the holidays! Time for neighborly compassion, selfless warmth and a week off for the Poetry Project. We will return on Wednesday 12/28, so please don=B9t email or call us until then. Unless of course your email is regarding Volunteering or Food Donating to our 33rd Annual New Year=B9s Day Marathon. Be a part of the community by helping this amazing event from behind the scenes! We promise you will feel just as good! A volunteer with a car (to help pick up food donations on the afternoon of 12/31 or around noon on 1/1= ) will receive extra poetry karma points! If you have already volunteered (the saints out there, you know who you are= ) do not fret, you will be receiving your time and duty dispatch special from Southern California, sometime in the next few days. Hugs, The Poetry Project Monday, January 1, 2007, 2:00 pm =AD some ridiculous hour of Tuesday, January 2, 2007 33rd Annual New Year's Day Marathon Reading With Philip Glass, Tracey McTague, Douglas Dunn, John Coletti, Erica Kaufman, Jenny Smith, Dael Orlandersmith, Edwin Torres, Christopher Martin, Anne Tardos, Rebecca Moore, Nina Karacosta, Bob Hershon, Filip Marinovic, Wanda Phipps, Shanxing Wang, John Giorno, Jen Benka, Tim Peterson, Michael Scharf, R. Erica Doyle, Corrine Fitzpatrick, Duriel Harris, Simone White, Joanna Fuhrman, Frank Sherlock, Todd Colby, Ed Friedman, Eliot Katz, Michae= l Cirelli, Steve Earle, Chris Rael, Joshua Clover, Lenny Kaye, Lytle Shaw, Donna Brook, Dale Sherrard, Murat Nemet-Nejat, John S. Hall, Eve Packer, Steven Hall, Brenda Bordofsky, CA Conrad, Patti Smith, Maggie Dubris, Evan Kennedy, Susan Briante, Simon Pettet, Merry Fortune, Nathaniel Siegel, Rodrigo Toscano, Stephanie Gray, Dan Machlin, Stacy Szymaszek, Anselm Berrigan, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Elinor Nauen, David Cameron, David Vogen, Urayoan Noel, Patricia Spears Jones, Carol Mirakove, Farid Matuk, Tracie Morris, Barbara Blatner, Elliott Sharp, Tisa Bryant, Jim Carroll, Brenda Coultas, M=F3nica de la Torre, Kimiko Hahn, Tony Hoffman, Amy King, Rachel Levitsky, Eileen Myles, Lee Ranaldo, Gillian McCain, Erika Recordon, Evelyn Reilly, Keith Roach, Renato Rosaldo, Lauren Russell, Brian Kim Stefans, Anne Waldman, Brendan Lorber, John Sinclair, Christopher Stackhouse, Dustin Williamson, Marisol Limon Martinez, Lourdes Vazquez, Judith Malina and Hanon Reznikov, Bruce Weber, Tony Towle, Janet Hamill, Billy Lamont, Jeffrey Jullich, Vicki Hudspith, Michael Lydon and Ellen Mandel, Guillermo Castro, Nada Gordon and Gary Sullivan, Peter Bushyeager, Cliff Fyman, Samantha Barrow, Kimberly Lyons, Arlo Quint, Regie Cabico, Ted Greenwald, Bill Kushner, Susan Landers, Bob Rosenthal, Thomas Savage, Harri= s Schiff, Jacqueline Waters, Max Blagg, Taylor Mead, Jim Behrle, Nicole Blackman, Tao Lin, Eric Bogosian, Robert Dunn, Mitch Highfill, Kazim Ali, Adeena Karasick, Edmund Berrigan, Jess Fiorini, Greg Fuchs, MacGregor Card, Drew Gardner, Bob Holman, Martha Oatis, Tonya Foster, Marcella Durand, Stev= e Cannon, Adam DeGraff, Karen Weiser, Prageeta Sharma, Yoshiko Chuma, Stephen Paul Miller, David Henderson, Jim Neu, Jordan Davis, Emily XYZ, Bill Berkson, Rich O'Russa, Sharon Mesmer, Don Yorty, Citizen Reno, Hal Sirowitz= , Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle, Bethany Spiers, Stephan Smith, Paul Vazquez, Marty Ehrlich, Erica Hunt, Dana Bryant, Corina Copp, Paul Killebrew, Penny Arcade, Katie Degentesh, Brenda Iijima and Paolo Javier! Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:41:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: What does "logotomy" mean? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: "University at Buffalo LISTSERV Server (14.5)" > > Date: December 19, 2006 9:34:21 PM CST > To: mIEKAL aND > Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > LISTSERV does not allow the distribution of empty messages to a > mailing list, > because some users are unable to see the "Subject:" field from > the original > message. > > From: mIEKAL aND > Date: December 19, 2006 9:34:08 PM CST > To: Theory and Writing , UB Poetics > discussion group > Subject: What does "logotomy" mean? > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:00:58 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Season's Greetings from Tinfish Press Comments: To: Reinhard Friederich , Miriam Fuchs , Kate Fagan , Kass Fleisher , Forrest Gander , Frances Presley , Jennifer Feeley , jesse fourmy , Skip Fox , Glenn Mott , jacinta galea'i , Gary Pak , Glenn K Man , "Theodore S. Gonzalves" , Geraldine Monk , Ken J Goto , Lesa Griffith , Greg_Herbst@nps.gov, jozufhadley@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tinfish Annual Report In the past year, Tinfish Press has continued to publish excellent experimental poetry from the Pacific region, with emphasis on writing and cutting edge design work by artists from Hawai`i and elsewhere. In 2006 we’ve published: Jozuf Hadley, aka bradajo, TWO POEMS BAI BRADAJO, poems in Hawaiian Creole English (Pidgin), with accompanying cd. $14 Jacinta Galea`i, ACHING FOR MANGO FRIENDS, a chapbook in English and Samoan. TINFISH 16, in collaboration with TROUT 13. Another collection of poetry by various authors who are not usually to be found inside the same covers. $8 In the near future, we will be publishing: Leonard Schwartz, LANGUAGE AS RESPONSIBILITY, on the Palestine/Israel conflict and a poetics of publishing across boundaries. Sarith Peou, COUNTING CORPSES, poems about life in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pam Brown & Maged Zaher, poems in collaboration. Kaia Sand on secret Oregon histories. Hazel Smith’s full-length book EROTICS OF GEOGRAPHY, with accompanying CD-ROM. TINFISH 17 THE BEST OF TINFISH COLORING BOOK (with accompanying exhibition). 17 artists will create works based on 17 poems from Tinfish’s 11 year history; the results will be published as an interactive coloring book. And, if that’s not enough, we’re hoping to start a reading series that will pair writers in Hawai`i with writers from elsewhere, to continue our project of building bridges between local, national, and international writing. All of this takes resources. We give our time to the project, but need money to make our ideas into books. To help us out, please donate some tax deductible (we are non-profit in more ways than one!) monies to us at Tinfish Press, 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9, Kane`ohe, HI 96744, or through the “purchase” function at http://tinfishpress.com Better yet, buy some Tinfish Press books! Best wishes for a happy and productive New Year. May there be some peace for us all. Susan M. Schultz, Editor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:06:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: What does "logotomy" mean? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it sounds like lobotomy, but is probably more like logonomy as opposed to logology.... and logonomy has the same relation to logology as astronomy does to astrology, economy to ecology, egonomy to ecology, though egotomy is but a metonymy for the deeper metology... i guess i still have a ways to go in weaning myself from that vobacularic discourse they slipped in my drink when i got my degree in psychomony at the church of autonomy or our lady of the logo-tummy C On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:41 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "University at Buffalo LISTSERV Server (14.5)" >> >> Date: December 19, 2006 9:34:21 PM CST >> To: mIEKAL aND >> Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> LISTSERV does not allow the distribution of empty messages to a >> mailing list, >> because some users are unable to see the "Subject:" field from >> the original >> message. >> >> From: mIEKAL aND >> Date: December 19, 2006 9:34:08 PM CST >> To: Theory and Writing , UB Poetics >> discussion group >> Subject: What does "logotomy" mean? >> >> >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Until you are adept enough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Until you are adept enough -- Peter Ciccariello Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:40:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: losing my way in the milky forests of confession MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed losing my way in the milky forests of confession http://www.asondheim.org/decipher.jpg [...] ▚ᨋ8c0;�ᳮٞ&#a206;⏲&#c706; ◗ၯၮ&#b6e0;�ᶰ&#a206;ᘶBf2; ʐ♅࢟ၮLe0;ಆᘶ ᙁ੠&#f632;ˡ઺&#e750;Ïቔ ̝઎ˠ&#e657;่۬ˤƒ ˖ᙲ&#e697;◿(a2;ʥಆᘰ ɞᙁ੠&#f632;ˡ઺&#e757;ቔ̖ ϯ઎ˠ&#e657;่۬˦˖ ᙬҶ♅a7;ၮLe7;ಆᘶ ᙁਗ਼վ&#f632;ˡ઺&#e757;ቔ ̝઎˚ن&#e657;่۬˦ ˖ᙲ&#e697;◸ߒf2;ʤ♅ a6;&#f206;Le7;a0;&#a200;࢞Le6;☾ &#a206;&#f206;∠۱8f2;c0;ॠ&#a697; ຟ&#a746;ᙽ◺ᰦ8c6; d0;ਮ &#e696;&#e616;∦ʤᙆʑf6;ᩀ ா$e6;d0;&#a0a2;ʐ d7;◾&#e616;8c0; ಂʤ&#e692;ʐ∪ᩆᙊd7; f0;ൊʐ$e7;᧔�a7;ਹሉ Ê&#c730;ฐ&#a2d6;ᙞᘄ&#e616;♅ ࢚ØLe0;ྦ&#e697;◸&#a202;ڌ &#e697;◾ᑒچၪ&#c687;ቢ2a6; &#f202;&#c687;ቜ&#a0a6;&#f200;ᄶ∫ʌ f2;c7;ሉ᧔ۉਲᇺ̜ &#d207;ኊ`c6;ၮ8c7;◾Ⴎᎎ 8c6; d6;&#e696;&#e612;ᷚʠ&#d797;੐ ᑖٸ&#c636;Le6;`e6;&#c6f7;ÏÎb0; ᔞb6;&#c6f6;&#d690;&#a207;Bf7;ઓሉ ๪ᗢe6;&#f697;઒&#d697;๱Bf6; &#f697;ሂ᝶&#c662;e2;ʚᩤᩤ &#c666;&#c632;ʔᠾ8e6;ٸಇຎ &#e616;8c2;ˡਗ਼ᤆᙨ`d2;&#d6e6; 4d7;໔ਲ&#a206;d0;᧎ᙨ`d2; &#d6e6;4d7;໔ਸಆd0;᭞ಇ ɨ࢟ɩ▖̚ᠻಀᰦ ▮&#c6f7;ၮLe2;&#e706;◺ʸ  ᳮ&#a627;ᙥ&#a746;้ɨಃ&#a657;࢘ ᶶ &#d206;٠ʴ&#d0a2;˃.f6; ࢘&#d656;&#c746;&#e756;&#e657;ለ■ e6;&#f690;Ïኊ&#f626;4d6;8c6;$e7; 8e6;☒ښƗၮ&#e6f2;&#e706;◾ e7;ᑒʐ&#c620;ɟᙲᙟd6; &#e723;&#a687;ሄf7;ၨϪʐ∦ d7;Fa6;ٹኀሰ▨ҷሱ ࢚&#d6e7;ૄ∪ڪ−a0;վ &#d687;ኼᘷၪʚ&#f206;ٹቺ نሰ▯ɨಇ࢟ೌ∫◐ ߖa2;d6;4d7;ɨ$e7;8e6;☒ ښ࢞&#f206;&#e6f6;Bf2;ʛɨಇ ᑗೆ०&#c626;e6;٠ʐ&#e652; &#d706;▤&#e750;ਮ&#f697;ለ&#f742;e2; ˖&#f202;˂ٞி઒&#d697;๱ Bf0;&#a206;ሰᙲ۪ಆ۬˒ ˖ᙲᙲٮ٪a0;ൊ&#d656; $e6;ᰧ๱ᨀ&#e656;ၪ&#e650;ณ &#a657;ለႴၮ d7;◾&#e616;8c0; ྡྷʤ&#e696;8e6;ᘨe6;ᚇᰧf0; ၯ੡ለZa2;c6;&#f727;d6;ᙨ ☠ᄶ&#f6c2;ʆ☒٤⏶&#e6f6; ਴ʔᇺʑBf2;Ḛ٤&#f762; ˜\e6;ቒᎊ̜࢞ၮᨨ &#e697;◾☢ʞᑗ.f6;ᘎሱ ɩ቙ᰦ(a2;ʨᔞ&#e697;◾ &#f6c2;ʤ☒٥࢞&#e6f0;ᗦ&#e6f7; ้้ለ&#f626;ҷᰦ ᝲ ʯቔʐ∦ˠ۰ቘ&#f760; ᠾ࢚\e7;f6;ᨀ≄ʌ&#e2e7;ᷢ ᤆa2;e6;ᙞ&#f686;ھLf6;ሰ ⇼᧊f6;ၯኀ&#f6d6;&#c656;‎ &#f206;&#f6c0;᭟ၮ8e6;≄f2;&#e2e7; ᷨ٠e0;ᰦ&#f642;˃ሉᰧ ಇ੠࢟▊ᳯf6;ᨀᘲ ʌf6;&#c6c6;&#f686;a0;ᶶLf6;ᙞ ∂ھҶሱ੡ሴ&#d697; ၮ਴ʌ˫8f2;e2;&#e2e0;Ï ၮ&#e616;‎ᘲ˗8f7;ˠ&#e690; Ɨሉ઄e6;&#f696;ٸ&#e756;⏷☂ ɞ&#d697;ၯZa2;ʐ&#c277;8f2;&#e2e2; c0;Ϯᘨe6;&#e692;˫ઉˠ &#f697;ሂҶ਴e2;˫8f2;ʆ &#e616;⏶&#e610;տ8f6;‎&#f792;˖ [...] http://www.asondheim.org/decipher.jpg o lord forgive me, such agony as done ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: script with stupid question (another dose of poetics) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Alan, when you say meaning is a construct "across" symbols, neither within > them or their definitions, that puts me in mind of two things. > > the first is Wittgensteins pronouncement that meaning reduces to the function > of words in a language in almost all cases, and that if you know how a word > is used in a language then you know what the word means. > I'm not sure where this is? Wittgenstein developed the notion of language games - that definitions are fuzzy; he used the example of "game." It's impossible to pin down the meaning of "game" - every attribute is suscept- ible to contradiction. So the word game is fluid/fluent, dependent on context which it also modifies, is part of. It's an extreme conventional- ism I think. > the second is the philosophical conception of supervenience which is defined > generally as follows: "a set of stuff A supervenes on a set of some stuff B > iff. nothing can differ about A without differring about B as well." > Can you give me a source here? This is fascinating! It's a bit like super- imposition in Land's color theory (and the breakdown of Aristotelian dis- tributivity). > I wonder how this might relate or contrast with your notion of acrossness. > If meaning is a construct across symbols, loosely tethered to them or at best structurally tethered to them (supervenes?), then two things - symbols, at least in the sense of graphemes, physical symbols, have no _inherent_ meaning (which of course Saussure pointed out), but that, not only sounds slide, but meaning slides as well. When you (me, anyway) looks at cuneiform, there are all sorts of potential registers at work - word-loans, say, from Sumerian, Hittite, Assyrian, etc., the base language itself, the determinative symbols, the syllabic symbols (which often represent multiple syllables), the ideograms (which are independent), etc. Whole archeologies are at work, and the surface appears to be something like a "skittering." I'm also fascinated by Maturana's pronouncement years ago, that language - speech - is the "mutual orientation of cognitive domains." This doesn't mean that speaker A and B agree or comprehend each other (which I think in a deep way is impossible) - but that the message transmitted and the (other) message received create an agreement between A and B - that both "comprehend" each other. This is among other things one of the foundations of communality. By the way this applies directly to poetics - how does one extract "meaning" from a poem? It appears easier with Pope, say, than with Poe, and easier with Dryden than Dickenson. The former work out of rhetorical tropes, conceits, the inherence of facticities; the latter slide slant and, at least for me, problematize (_not_ eliminate) meaning itself. Finally for me it also relates to codework which is the conceivable transparency, but at least the apparency, of eruptive/corruptive code (Kristeva's Powers of Horror come to mind here - even the notion of "powers" reflects a mathematization) within/against normative language - as if that that tethering of sliding matrices finally crashlands, like a floating head on an old harddrive, wrecking havoc among the binary. Please give a source for supervenience, and thanks greatly! - Alan > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> script with stupid question >> >> >> is this a found script or one i created? does it really matter? given the >> relatively small number of symbols, it would be reasonable to apply coding >> to it - a matrix/template that might slide across the apparent grid, >> producing meaning. one might think of this as a _universal machine_ >> applicable to texts of any length; it becomes increasingly evident that >> meaning is a construct _across_ symbols, neither within them nor within the >> dictionary translation / transliterations. >> >> here, in this example, only in this particular example, one has a section >> of what seems to be an _infinite text,_ a text in the manner of a bandage >> or suture across the wound of a sememe (what reads as a sememe); a wound >> within, unconstrued within, the imaginary. think of this as the _lid_ of >> the _pre-linguistic_ - not exactly mode, but a potential for interpreta- >> tion, sliding out and against itself, as soon as one is found. nothing >> holds here, not even "here," not even place or placement. the lesson, where >> we are, where we are not, is always already unlearned. >> >> posted by alan @ 11:08 AM 0 Comments Links to this post >> >> italics and script at http://nikuko.blogspot.com >> script at http://www.asondheim.org/script.jpg >> > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:44:01 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Women in Israel are freer than anywhere else in the Middle East, indeed...as long as they are not Palestinian. Ruth Lepson wrote: thank you michael! she may be right-wing but sure isn't in this article. women are in prison in iraq, afraid to leave their homes--see article this week in boston globe. burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other middle east country. and it seems that only israel gets commented up on on this list serv--no articles or comments abt how minorities are abused in other mid-east countries, or abt darfur where there is a holocaust going on, or as I heard on INN yesterday there's a new repot that says 10 million female fetuses have been aborted or newborn baby girls killed--mostly by being buried alive or by having sand etc poured into their noses. or abt govt violence in latin america. if left-wing has something to do w/ believing that every human being has human rights & must be fed & given opportunities than let's think abt the 75% of the hungry people in this world who are women and children. how many jews are there in the world-- to be blamed for so many problems! of course israel has done awful things, and peace is finally the only answer and of course war kills the innocent--now 80-85% of people killed in wars are civilians--those who are the victims of the very regime the others are trying to overthrow. and regimes that take over through violence usually turn into tyrannical govts. ok, I realize I'm lecturing and over the top--better stop drinking coffee for awhile & get back to work--but to be a left-wing jew in the US these days is to see some contradictions. On 12/19/06 3:25 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger, the Kingsley Amis of her time and > sex. > Anyway, no need to get huffy. > > "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: > Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian columnist who left the paper three > years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html > > And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt both by the Soviet Union (end of > one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of said > family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By the > way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's when > Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep doing my part to promote a peace > settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing israeli > government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and > justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the > situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid > things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom I > admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at least on > second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll keep > saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as > antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some > sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. > whatever... piece of cake, I said... > > Michael > > > le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day à rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a écrit : > >> I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. >> >> I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: >> >> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html >> >> "The Israel Lobby" >> >> In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby >> determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at >> the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit >> and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended >> talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is >> inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it >> coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence >> your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the >> extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; >> but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. >> >> Roger >> >> On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >>> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to support >>> this >>> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time >>> someone >>> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonsense. >>> One >>> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jewish >>> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it probably >>> is, >>> then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years as causes of >>> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from the >>> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination of Rabin--as >>> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassin.) >>> >>> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen >>> anything to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions within >>> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being >>> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support >>> (e.g., >>> the ANC) were in its favor. >>> >>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>> Ruth, >>> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always >>> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure and >>> viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an insensitive >>> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There is >>> and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sionism. >>> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region should >>> stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british left >>> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >>> Shalom. >>> >>> >>> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson à ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a écrit : >>> >>>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working >>>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect the >>>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting each >>>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing >>>> this--I >>>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--but >>>> it's >>>> just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want peace, >>>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of >>>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--really, >>>> what >>>> are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every day, >>>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the >>>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the ground >>>> it's >>>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yrs >>>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry readings! to >>>> go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of money to a >>>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as others >>>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly moral >>>> person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in this >>>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new >>>>> signatures >>>>> have been added. >>>>> >>>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >>>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you >>>>>> should see it. >>>>>> >>>>>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, >>>>>> go >>>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>>> >>>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>>> The Guardian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by Israeli >>>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army in >>>>>> Gaza >>>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every >>>>>> Israeli >>>>>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since the >>>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palestinian >>>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbishop >>>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now South >>>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apartheid. >>>>>> >>>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right of >>>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of apartheid >>>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to apartheid >>>>>> was >>>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which enabled >>>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governmental >>>>>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural boycott >>>>>> of >>>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European >>>>>> countries, >>>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents. It >>>>>> is >>>>>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If not >>>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. Read >>>>>> the >>>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Eduardo >>>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf Soueif >>>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>>> >>>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>>> >>>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that the >>>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist; it >>>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, because >>>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "looked >>>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many do, the >>>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be >>>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing >>>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say that >>>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>>>> >>>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora >>>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>> - >>>> -- >>>> --------- >>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. >>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:03:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Ross Subject: Re: Grauniad boy-cut MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline is this becoming the poletics list, polemics list, philippic list, phyrric list..... is this list lost? so many wings we are unable to fly. -- Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed that this message contains confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:39:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: susan maurer reading at jushi's, nyc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed do come read open at jushi's on 1-4 at 7:30. think its about $7. she is at 155 w. 21st. walk up the stairsnd its the first apartment on the left.i get to be the feature. come and say hello. happy holidays to everyon and here's hoping for a peacful new year. susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE Web site and company branded e-mail from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:49:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: And a news story Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In McLeod Ganj, hill station in lap of Himalaya, during most recent war between Lebanon and Israel, where the Lebanese were smashed, young Israelis, these ancient hills considered most holy by Hindus, spotted with New Age Israeli settlements (which, incidentally, are very much exclusive and tend towards unfriendly), were heard drinking and cheering among a majority community dominated by Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims (Pakistan and Kashmir just round the corner). Of course, this added to resentment. And to think that the US government was until recently funding, perhaps unknowingly, what has been described as 'little floridas' out there in the desert - Americans of Jewish descent returning to Israel with baby and submachine gun in hand (as has been depicted on Israeli TV, I am told, quite often - my source a soldier in the Israeli army, and we drank and smoke chillums up there among sweet water pools). Woman beaten on Jerusalem bus for refusing to move to rear seat By Daphna Berman A woman who reported a vicious attack by an ad-hoc "modesty patrol" on a Jerusalem bus last month is now lining up support for her case and may be included in a petition to the High Court of Justice over the legality of sex-segregated buses. Miriam Shear says she was traveling to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City early on November 24 when a group of ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) men attacked her for refusing to move to the back of the Egged No. 2 bus. She is now in touch with several legal advocacy and women's organizations, and at the same time, waiting for the police to apprehend her attackers. In her first interview since the incident, Shear says that on the bus three weeks ago, she was slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women. The bus driver, in response to a media inquiry, denied that violence was used against her, but Shear's account has been substantiated by an unrelated eyewitness on the bus who confirmed that she sustained an unprovoked "severe beating." Shear, an American-Israeli woman who currently lives in Canada, says that on a recent five-week vacation to Israel, she rode the bus daily to the Old City to pray at sunrise. Though not defined by Egged as a sex-segregated "mehadrin" bus, women usually sit in the back, while men sit in the front, as a matter of custom. "Every two or three days, someone would tell me to sit in the back, sometimes politely and sometimes not," she recalled this week in a telephone interview. "I was always polite and said 'No. This is not a synagogue. I am not going to sit in the back.'" But Shear, a 50-year-old religious woman, says that on the morning of the 24th, a man got onto the bus and demanded her seat - even though there were a number of other seats available in the front of the bus. "I said, I'm not moving and he said, 'I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.' Then he spat in my face and at that point, I was in high adrenaline mode and called him a son-of-a-bitch, which I am not proud of. Then I spat back. At that point, he pushed me down and people on the bus were screaming that I was crazy. Four men surrounded me and slapped my face, punched me in the chest, pulled at my clothes, beat me, kicked me. My snood [hair covering] came off. I was fighting back and kicked one of the men in his privates. I will never forget the look on his face." Shear says that when she bent down in the aisle to retrieve her hair covering, "one of the men kicked me in the face. Thank God he missed my eye. I got up and punched him. I said, 'I want my hair covering back' but he wouldn't give it to me, so I took his black hat and threw it in the aisle." 'Stupid American' Throughout the encounter, Shear says the bus driver "did nothing." The other passengers, she says, blamed her for not moving to the back of the bus and called her a "stupid American with no sechel [common sense.] People blamed me for not knowing my place and not going to the back of the bus where I belong." According to Yehoshua Meyer, the eyewitness to the incident, Shear's account is entirely accurate. "I saw everything," he said. "Someone got on the bus and demanded that she go to the back, but she didn't agree. She was badly beaten and her whole body sustained hits and kicks. She tried to fight back and no one would help her. I tried to help, but someone was stopping me from getting up. My phone's battery was dead, so I couldn't call the police. I yelled for the bus driver to stop. He stopped once, but he didn't do anything. When we finally got to the Kotel [Western Wall], she was beaten badly and I helped her go to the police." Shear says that when she first started riding the No. 2 line, she did not even know that it was sometimes sex-segregated. She also says that sitting in the front is simply more comfortable. "I'm a 50-year-old woman and I don't like to sit in the back. I'm dressed appropriately and I was on a public bus." "It is very dangerous for a group of people to take control over a public entity and enforce their will without going through due process," she said. "Even if they [Haredim who want a segregated bus] are a majority - and I don't think they are - they have options available. They can petition Egged or hire their own private line. But as long as it's a public bus, I don't care if there are 500 people telling me where to sit. I can sit wherever I want and so can anyone else." Meyer says that throughout the incident, the other passengers blamed Shear for not sitting in the back. "They'll probably claim that she attacked them first, but that's totally untrue. She was abused terribly, and I've never seen anything like it." Word of Shear's story traveled quickly after she forwarded an e-mail detailing her experience. She has been contacted by a number of groups, including Shatil, the New Israel Fund's Empowerment and Training Center for Social Change; Kolech, a religious women's forum; the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the legal advocacy arm of the local Reform movement; and the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance (JOFA). In the coming month, IRAC will be submitting a petition to the High Court of Justice against the Transportation Ministry over the issue of segregated Egged buses. IRAC attorney Orly Erez-Likhovski is in touch with Shear and is considering including her in the petition. Although the No. 2 Jerusalem bus where the incident occurred is not actually defined as a mehadrin line, Erez-Likhovski says that Shear's story is further proof that the issue requires legal clarification. About 30 Egged buses are designated as mehadrin, mostly on inter-city lines, but they are not marked to indicate this. "There's no way to identify a mehadrin bus, which in itself is a problem," she said. "Theoretically, a person can sit wherever they want, even on a mehadrin line, but we're seeing that people are enforcing [the gender segregation] even on non-mehadrin lines and that's the part of the danger," she said. On a mehadrin bus, women enter and exit through the rear door, and the seats from the rear door back are generally considered the "women's section." A child is usually sent forward to pay the driver. The official responses In a response from Egged, the bus driver denied that Shear was physically attacked in any way. "In a thorough inquiry that we conducted, we found that the bus driver does not confirm that any violence was used against the complainant," Egged spokesman Ron Ratner wrote. "According to the driver, once he saw that there was a crowd gathering around her, he stopped the bus and went to check what was going on. He clarified to the passengers that the bus was not a mehadrin line and that all passengers on the line are permitted to sit wherever they want on the bus. After making sure that the passengers returned to their seats, he continued driving." The Egged response also noted that their drivers "are not able and are not authorized to supervise the behavior of the passengers in all situations." Ministry of Transportation spokesperson Avner Ovadia said in response that the mehadrin lines are "the result of agreements reached between Egged and Haredi bodies" and are therefore unconnected to the ministry. A spokesperson for the Jerusalem police said the case is still under investigation. http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=801449&contrassID=19 2-cents AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:57:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Subject: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's an updated listing of readers for The Annual MLA Off-Site Poetry Reading, Friday, December 29th, 9-11 pm, organized by Bob Pereleman, sponsored by the University of Alabama Press and the Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series. Location: Philadelphia Arts Alliance, 251 South 18th Street (southeast corner of Rittenhouse Square) >Nat Anderson >Dennis Barone >Herman Beavers >Charles Bernstein >Caroline Bergvall >Christian Bok >C. A. Conrad >Matthew Cooperman >Michael Davidson >Tom Devaney >Linh Dinh >Johanna Drucker >Patrick Durgin >Michael Tod Edgerton >Cathy Eisenhower >Eduardo Espino >Adam Fieled >Loren Goodman >Carla Harryman >William Howe >Yunte Huang >Aaron Kunin >Hank Lazer >Leevi Lehto >Walter Lew >Camille Martin >Peter Middleton >Nick Monfort >Laura Moriarty >Aldon Neilsen >Tom Orange >Osman Jena >Bob Perelman >Ethel Rackin >Joan Retallack >Linda Russo >Jennifer Scappetone >Susan Schultz >Kathy Lou Schultz >Josh Schuster >Prageeta Sharma >Frank Sherlock >Evie Shockley >Juliana Spahr >Sasha Steensen >Brian Stefans >Lamont Steptoe >Elaine Terranova >Mark Wallace >Barrett Watten >John Wilkinson >Tyrone Williams >Timothy Yu > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:08:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: <000f01c72447$31a085b0$adb2a082@uanet.ua.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm counting 55 readers in 2 hours? That's a little more than 2 minutes a person. Looks to be some kind of tagteam match. On Dec 20, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Hank Lazer wrote: > Here's an updated listing of readers for The Annual MLA Off-Site > Poetry > Reading, Friday, December 29th, 9-11 pm, organized by Bob Pereleman, > sponsored by the University of Alabama Press and the Modern and > Contemporary > Poetics Series. > > Location: Philadelphia Arts Alliance, 251 South 18th Street (southeast > corner of Rittenhouse Square) > >> Nat Anderson >> Dennis Barone >> Herman Beavers >> Charles Bernstein >> Caroline Bergvall >> Christian Bok >> C. A. Conrad >> Matthew Cooperman >> Michael Davidson >> Tom Devaney >> Linh Dinh >> Johanna Drucker >> Patrick Durgin >> Michael Tod Edgerton >> Cathy Eisenhower >> Eduardo Espino >> Adam Fieled >> Loren Goodman >> Carla Harryman >> William Howe >> Yunte Huang >> Aaron Kunin >> Hank Lazer >> Leevi Lehto >> Walter Lew >> Camille Martin >> Peter Middleton >> Nick Monfort >> Laura Moriarty >> Aldon Neilsen >> Tom Orange >> Osman Jena >> Bob Perelman >> Ethel Rackin >> Joan Retallack >> Linda Russo >> Jennifer Scappetone >> Susan Schultz >> Kathy Lou Schultz >> Josh Schuster >> Prageeta Sharma >> Frank Sherlock >> Evie Shockley >> Juliana Spahr >> Sasha Steensen >> Brian Stefans >> Lamont Steptoe >> Elaine Terranova >> Mark Wallace >> Barrett Watten >> John Wilkinson >> Tyrone Williams >> Timothy Yu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:10:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Southern Belle Subject: Re: the Poets' Corner - Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable heyal,i was wondering where i could post a few of my poems?any suggestions?= Thank You,Southern Belle"I Am A GOD In Training .... Just Wait Till It Catc= hes On!"> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:47:07 +0100> From: anny.ballardini@GMAI= L.COM> Subject: the Poets' Corner - Update> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.ED= U> > * *> > > > "Art is the means we have of undoing the damage of haste. I= t's what> > everything else isn't."> > > > --from *On Poetry and Craft:= Selected Prose of *Theodore Roethke**> > *thanks to* *James Finnegan*> > a= nd more under Why Poetry Exists> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?na= me=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D62> > > > * *> > * *> > *Newl= y featured Poets:*> > * *> > *James Cervantes*> > *> http://www.fieralingue= .it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D219> *> > *= *> > *Jean Vengua*> > *> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DCont= ent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D220> *> > * *> > *Jim Bennett*> > *> h= ttp://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categor= ies&cid=3D221> *> > * *> > *Ton van't Hof*> > *> http://www.fieralingue.it/= modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D222> *> > * *> = > *Ivy Alvarez*> > *> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&= pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D223> *> > * *> > *Nick Carbo*> > *> http:/= /www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&c= id=3D224> *> > * *> > *Aaron Belz*> > *> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.= php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D225> *> > * *> > *Alici= a Ostriker*> > *> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa= =3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D226> *> > * *> > *Ellen Moody*> > *> http://= www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetsonpoets&pa=3Dlist_pages_categori= es&cid=3D67> *> > > > > > > > *__New__ by Already Featured Poets*> > > > *= Elizabeth Smither*> > Buying a corset with my mother> > http://www.fieralin= gue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1670> > Tonia, photographer> > http:= //www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1671> > Flowers on my = mother's casket> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1672> > > > *Harriet Zinnes*> > Over and Under> > http://www.fieralingue= .it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1673> > > > *Charles Martin*> > Photos = of brazil #302> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1677> > Photos of brazil #303> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa= =3Dprintpage&pid=3D1678> > Photos of brazil #304> > http://www.fieralingue.= it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1679> > Photos of brazil #305> > http://= www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1680> > Photos of brazil= #306> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1681> > = Photos of brazil #307> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpag= e&pid=3D1682> > Photos of brazil #308> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1683> > Photos of brazil #309> > http://www.fierali= ngue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1684> > Photos of brazil #310> > ht= tp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1685> > Photos of b= razil #311> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D168= 6> > Photos of brazil #312> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dpri= ntpage&pid=3D1687> > Photos of brazil #313> > http://www.fieralingue.it/cor= ner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1688> > Photos of brazil #314> > http://www.fi= eralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1689> > Photos of brazil #315>= > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1690> > Photos= of brazil #316> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1692> > Photos of brazil #317> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa= =3Dprintpage&pid=3D1693> > Photos of brazil #318> > http://www.fieralingue.= it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1694> > Photos of brazil #319> > http://= www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1695> > Photos of brazil= #320> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1696> > = Photos of brazil #321> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpag= e&pid=3D1697> > Photos of brazil #322> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1698> > Photos of brazil #323> > http://www.fierali= ngue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1699> > Photos of brazil #324> > ht= tp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1700> > Photos of b= razil #325> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D170= 1> > Photos of brazil #326> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dpri= ntpage&pid=3D1702> > Photos of brazil #327> > http://www.fieralingue.it/cor= ner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1703> > Photos of brazil #327> > http://www.fi= eralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1703> > Photos of brazil #328>= > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1704> > Photos= of brazil #329> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1705> > Photos of brazil #330> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa= =3Dprintpage&pid=3D1706> > Photos of brazil #331> > http://www.fieralingue.= it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1707> > Photos of brazil #332> > http://= www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1708> > Photos of brazil= #333> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1709> > = Photos of brazil #334> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpag= e&pid=3D1710> > Photos of brazil #335> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1711> > Photos of brazil #336> > http://www.fierali= ngue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1712> > Photos of brazil #337> > ht= tp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1713> > Photos of b= razil #338> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D171= 4> > Photos of brazil #339> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dpri= ntpage&pid=3D1715> > Photos of brazil #340> > http://www.fieralingue.it/cor= ner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1716> > Photos of brazil #341> > http://www.fi= eralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1717> > Photos of brazil #342>= > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1718> > > > *M= artin John Walker*> > HOMAGE TO HEINE> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1720> > > > *Alan Sondheim*> > From the Alps /Swiss= project> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1721>= > the problematic wages of desire on fire, yes sire, the wages of bon, wan= > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1723> > > > *= Jon Corelis*> > Notes toward a definition of I> > http://www.fieralingue.it= /corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1722> > An advent calendar> > http://www.f= ieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1821> > > > *David Howard*> >= FASCICLE> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1729= > > THE SUNDAY PAINTER> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpa= ge&pid=3D1730> > AN EXTEMPORE TRAGEDY> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1731> > from THE VOICES THAT GET UP> > http://www.f= ieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1732> > ON THE LINE> > http:/= /www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1733> > SNAPSHOT> > htt= p://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1734> > CHARM> > htt= p://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1735> > OFF> > http:= //www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1736> > THE THEOLOGY O= F BEETLES> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1737= > > SUBTITLES> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D= 1738> > STICK FIGURES IN A CIRCLE> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?p= a=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1740> > AN ACCOUNT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.= php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1741> > from THE ART OF SEPARATION> > http://www.f= ieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1742> > YOU SAY IT'S YOUR BIR= THDAY> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1743> > = HEAR SAY> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1744>= > DECORATING THE PRESENT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprin= tpage&pid=3D1745> > CONCERT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dpr= intpage&pid=3D1746> > COMPLETE WITH INSTRUCTIONS> > http://www.fieralingue.= it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1747> > TAKING SIDEWAYS> > http://www.fi= eralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1755> > THE PERPETUAL BIRD> > = http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1756> > TO CAVAFY= > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1757> > FOR F= ERNANDO PESSOA> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1758> > from THERE YOU GO> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dp= rintpage&pid=3D1759> > LAWYER'S POINT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1760> > HOME COMFORTS (after a painting by Eion Ste= vens)> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1762> > = A MOTHER'S STORY> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1763> > THE HARRIER SUITE> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dp= rintpage&pid=3D1764> > THE HELD AIR> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php= ?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1765> > JOANNA PAUL AT WANGANUI> > http://www.fierali= ngue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1766> > LETTER TO CHARLES BRASCH> >= http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1767> > from THE= WORLD WENT ROUND> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D1768> > from ON FIRST LOOKING> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?p= a=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1769> > > > *Charles Martin*> > Whispers : 401 =96 402 = =96 403> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1770> = > 404-Whispers 405-ascension-406-407-circulate-408-hatching> > http://www.f= ieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1771> > Whispers : 409-dreame= r> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1772> > Whis= pers : 410-No Broken Dreams =96 411 =96 412-footprints> > http://www.fieral= ingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1773> > Whispers : 413-sunrises & = sunsets =96 414> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D1774> > Whispers : 415-Reflections =96 416-cyclops =96 417> > http://www= .fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1775> > Whispers : 421-The = ferry =96 422 =96 423> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpag= e&pid=3D1776> > Whispers : 424-Homeward Bound =96 425 =96 426 =96 427> > ht= tp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1777> > Whispers : = 432-5 am =96 433-astute ankle =96 434 =96 435 =96 436 =96 437 =96 438> > ht= tp://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1778> > Whispers : = 443-questions =96 444> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpag= e&pid=3D1779> > > > *Charles Martin*> > TWO1> > http://www.fieralingue.it/c= orner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1783> > TWO2> > http://www.fieralingue.it/co= rner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1784> > TWO3> > http://www.fieralingue.it/cor= ner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1785> > TWO4> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corn= er.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1786> > TWO5> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corne= r.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1787> > TWO6> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner= .php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1788> > TWO7> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.= php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1789> > TWO8> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1790> > TWO9> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1791> > TWO10> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1792> > TWO11> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1793> > TWO12> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1794> > TWO13> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1795> > TWO14> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1796> > TWO15> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1797> > TWO16> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1798> > TWO17> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1799> > TWO18> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1800> > TWO19> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.ph= p?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D1801> > > > > > > > *Under Poets on Poets ___Transla= tions__*> *By Jon Corelis - EURIPIDES' HIPPOLYTOS: A PERFORMANCE VERSION [= work in> progress] *> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetsonp= oets&pa=3Dlist_pages_categories&cid=3D66> **> > And *Ellen Moody* with :> >= *VITTORIA** COLONNA* in English> > I write to vent the inward pain> > http= ://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D= 171> > Gone the gentle colors of the earth's spring> > http://www.fieraling= ue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D172> > See that = lovely juniper, pressed so hard,> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poets= onpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D173> > Look, how quiet the sea, pea= ceful the waves=97> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner= .php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D174> > Why endlessly appeal to death's cold ear,>= > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage= &pid=3D175> > To this torment has Love reduced my life:> > http://www.fiera= lingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D176> > Love = teaches me to feed on flames and tears;> > http://www.fieralingue.it/module= s/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D177> > When my tormented hea= rt contracts with pain,> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/c= orner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D178> > In the faithful heart a second spring= comes> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dpr= intpage&pid=3D179> > My most exalted Lord, I am writing> > http://www.fiera= lingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D180> > Love,= you know all too well my foot never> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/p= oetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D181> > Canzone: In this moment,= cut off from my haven> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/co= rner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D182> > A mosaic high on a wall, flakes of> > = http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pi= d=3D183> > > > And *VERONICA GAMBARA*:> > Stanzas [On the fleetingness of e= arthly goods]> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?= pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D184> > Now hope has died> > http://www.fieralingue.it/= modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D185> > How welcome to = my eyes this shady hill> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/c= orner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D186> > Love assaulted my heart many times> >= http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&p= id=3D187> > I am not and hope never to be free> > http://www.fieralingue.it= /modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D188> > So intense is = this grief> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa= =3Dprintpage&pid=3D189> > Torture me, cruel goddess: use your full strength= > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpag= e&pid=3D190> > That bond my blest fate protected me by> > http://www.fieral= ingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D191> > Beauti= ful shining eyes> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.p= hp?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D192> > Unbind and weave into your golden hair> > ht= tp://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid= =3D193> > If in that radiant beautiful age> > http://www.fieralingue.it/mod= ules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D194> > Far different fore= sts, meadows, and mountains> > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoe= ts/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D195> > > > > > > > I always respect the = order by which I receive the contributions. With my> felt acknowledgement t= o all those who have contributed to the Corner, and my> best wishes for the= festivities,> > > > > > *Anny Ballardini*> http://annyballardini.blogspot.= com/> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome> http://www.mo= riapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to = give birth to a dancing> star!> Friedrich Nietzsche _________________________________________________________________ Get into the holiday spirit, chat with Santa on Messenger. http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/santabot/default.aspx?locale=3Den-= us= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:29:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Must say that this reading's gonna be one hum-dinger! Wish I could be there to either read or listen. Best!! AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Re: the Poets' Corner - Update In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed look up wryting the listserv from wvu. does anyone know if posting counts as a publication to editors who want unpublished work i should thnk so and dont post for that reason. susan maurer >From: Southern Belle >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: the Poets' Corner - Update >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:10:48 -0800 > >heyal,i was wondering where i could post a few of my poems?any >suggestions?Thank You,Southern Belle"I Am A GOD In Training .... Just Wait >Till It Catches On!"> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:47:07 +0100> From: >anny.ballardini@GMAIL.COM> Subject: the Poets' Corner - Update> To: >POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > * *> > > > "Art is the means we have of >undoing the damage of haste. It's what> > everything else isn't."> > > > > --from *On Poetry and Craft: Selected Prose of *Theodore Roethke**> > >*thanks to* *James Finnegan*> > and more under Why Poetry Exists> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=62> > > > > * *> > * *> > *Newly featured Poets:*> > * *> > *James Cervantes*> > >*> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=219> >*> > * *> > *Jean Vengua*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=220> >*> > * *> > *Jim Bennett*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=221> >*> > * *> > *Ton van't Hof*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=222> >*> > * *> > *Ivy Alvarez*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=223> >*> > * *> > *Nick Carbo*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=224> >*> > * *> > *Aaron Belz*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=225> >*> > * *> > *Alicia Ostriker*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=226> >*> > * *> > *Ellen Moody*> > *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67> >*> > > > > > > > *__New__ by Already Featured Poets*> > > > *Elizabeth >Smither*> > Buying a corset with my mother> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1670> > Tonia, >photographer> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1671> > > Flowers on my mother's casket> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1672> > > > *Harriet >Zinnes*> > Over and Under> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1673> > > > *Charles >Martin*> > Photos of brazil #302> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1677> > Photos of >brazil #303> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1678> > > Photos of brazil #304> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1679> > Photos of >brazil #305> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1680> > > Photos of brazil #306> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1681> > Photos of >brazil #307> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1682> > > Photos of brazil #308> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1683> > Photos of >brazil #309> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1684> > > Photos of brazil #310> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1685> > Photos of >brazil #311> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1686> > > Photos of brazil #312> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1687> > Photos of >brazil #313> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1688> > > Photos of brazil #314> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1689> > Photos of >brazil #315> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1690> > > Photos of brazil #316> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1692> > Photos of >brazil #317> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1693> > > Photos of brazil #318> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1694> > Photos of >brazil #319> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1695> > > Photos of brazil #320> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1696> > Photos of >brazil #321> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1697> > > Photos of brazil #322> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1698> > Photos of >brazil #323> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1699> > > Photos of brazil #324> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1700> > Photos of >brazil #325> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1701> > > Photos of brazil #326> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1702> > Photos of >brazil #327> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1703> > > Photos of brazil #327> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1703> > Photos of >brazil #328> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1704> > > Photos of brazil #329> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1705> > Photos of >brazil #330> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1706> > > Photos of brazil #331> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1707> > Photos of >brazil #332> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1708> > > Photos of brazil #333> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1709> > Photos of >brazil #334> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1710> > > Photos of brazil #335> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1711> > Photos of >brazil #336> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1712> > > Photos of brazil #337> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1713> > Photos of >brazil #338> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1714> > > Photos of brazil #339> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1715> > Photos of >brazil #340> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1716> > > Photos of brazil #341> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1717> > Photos of >brazil #342> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1718> > > > > *Martin John Walker*> > HOMAGE TO HEINE> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1720> > > > *Alan >Sondheim*> > From the Alps /Swiss project> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1721> > the >problematic wages of desire on fire, yes sire, the wages of bon, wan> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1723> > > > *Jon >Corelis*> > Notes toward a definition of I> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1722> > An advent >calendar> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1821> > > > > *David Howard*> > FASCICLE> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1729> > THE SUNDAY >PAINTER> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1730> > AN >EXTEMPORE TRAGEDY> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1731> > from THE >VOICES THAT GET UP> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1732> > ON THE LINE> > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1733> > SNAPSHOT> > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1734> > CHARM> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1735> > OFF> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1736> > THE THEOLOGY >OF BEETLES> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1737> > >SUBTITLES> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1738> > >STICK FIGURES IN A CIRCLE> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1740> > AN ACCOUNT> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1741> > from THE ART >OF SEPARATION> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1742> > YOU SAY IT'S >YOUR BIRTHDAY> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1743> > HEAR SAY> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1744> > DECORATING >THE PRESENT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1745> > > CONCERT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1746> > >COMPLETE WITH INSTRUCTIONS> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1747> > TAKING >SIDEWAYS> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1755> > >THE PERPETUAL BIRD> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1756> > TO CAVAFY> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1757> > FOR FERNANDO >PESSOA> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1758> > >from THERE YOU GO> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1759> > LAWYER'S >POINT> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1760> > HOME >COMFORTS (after a painting by Eion Stevens)> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1762> > A MOTHER'S >STORY> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1763> > THE >HARRIER SUITE> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1764> > THE HELD AIR> > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1765> > JOANNA >PAUL AT WANGANUI> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1766> > LETTER TO >CHARLES BRASCH> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1767> > from THE >WORLD WENT ROUND> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1768> > from ON FIRST >LOOKING> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1769> > > > > *Charles Martin*> > Whispers : 401 – 402 – 403> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1770> > 404-Whispers >405-ascension-406-407-circulate-408-hatching> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1771> > Whispers : >409-dreamer> > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1772> > > Whispers : 410-No Broken Dreams – 411 – 412-footprints> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1773> > Whispers : >413-sunrises & sunsets – 414> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1774> > Whispers : >415-Reflections – 416-cyclops – 417> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1775> > Whispers : >421-The ferry – 422 – 423> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1776> > Whispers : >424-Homeward Bound – 425 – 426 – 427> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1777> > Whispers : >432-5 am – 433-astute ankle – 434 – 435 – 436 – 437 – 438> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1778> > Whispers : >443-questions – 444> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1779> > > > *Charles >Martin*> > TWO1> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1783> > TWO2> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1784> > TWO3> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1785> > TWO4> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1786> > TWO5> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1787> > TWO6> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1788> > TWO7> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1789> > TWO8> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1790> > TWO9> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1791> > TWO10> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1792> > TWO11> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1793> > TWO12> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1794> > TWO13> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1795> > TWO14> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1796> > TWO15> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1797> > TWO16> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1798> > TWO17> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1799> > TWO18> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1800> > TWO19> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=1801> > > > > > > > >*Under Poets on Poets ___Translations__*> *By Jon Corelis - EURIPIDES' >HIPPOLYTOS: A PERFORMANCE VERSION [work in> progress] *> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=66> >**> > And *Ellen Moody* with :> > *VITTORIA** COLONNA* in English> > I >write to vent the inward pain> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=171> > > Gone the gentle colors of the earth's spring> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=172> > > See that lovely juniper, pressed so hard,> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=173> > > Look, how quiet the sea, peaceful the waves—> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=174> > > Why endlessly appeal to death's cold ear,> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=175> > > To this torment has Love reduced my life:> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=176> > > Love teaches me to feed on flames and tears;> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=177> > > When my tormented heart contracts with pain,> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=178> > > In the faithful heart a second spring comes> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=179> > > My most exalted Lord, I am writing> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=180> > > Love, you know all too well my foot never> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=181> > > Canzone: In this moment, cut off from my haven> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=182> > > A mosaic high on a wall, flakes of> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=183> > > > > And *VERONICA GAMBARA*:> > Stanzas [On the fleetingness of earthly >goods]> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=184> > > Now hope has died> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=185> > > How welcome to my eyes this shady hill> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=186> > > Love assaulted my heart many times> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=187> > > I am not and hope never to be free> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=188> > > So intense is this grief> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=189> > > Torture me, cruel goddess: use your full strength> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=190> > > That bond my blest fate protected me by> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=191> > > Beautiful shining eyes> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=192> > > Unbind and weave into your golden hair> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=193> > > If in that radiant beautiful age> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=194> > > Far different forests, meadows, and mountains> > >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=195> > > > > > > > > I always respect the order by which I receive the >contributions. With my> felt acknowledgement to all those who have >contributed to the Corner, and my> best wishes for the festivities,> > > > > > > *Anny Ballardini*> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/> >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome> >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html> I Tell You: One must still have >chaos in one to give birth to a dancing> star!> Friedrich Nietzsche >_________________________________________________________________ >Get into the holiday spirit, chat with Santa on Messenger. >http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/santabot/default.aspx?locale=en-us _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:33:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: responding to Ron Silliman's blog entry on the cutup In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The most interesting thing to me about Ron Silliman's inclusion of Ted Berrigan as a practitioner of "the cut-up." Although I knew/have known Ted and his work for many years it never occurred to me that his poems, which quote liberally from sources ranging from Shakespeare to John Ashbery that these sonnets and poems which do that were cut-ups. It's an interesting perspective and may help me teach Ted's poems in the spring at The Poetry Project. Jason Quackenbush wrote: very interesting thoughts jim. I've been playing with doing textual cutup using recordings of text for a while, and then transcribing the results back to text. one thing i've noticed about that process is that there are what i've taken to calling 'translation errors' in the cutup process. Places where, as the words are recombined, new words seem to be suggested. it's even more pronounced working in sound rather than print, because there aren't the visual cues to suggest the boundaries of words. just my $.02 On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Jim Andrews wrote: > "But a lot more important than figuring out just who should get credit for > cutting up & folding in is fathoming just why this move at this exact moment > in history. " > Silliman at http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com > > Ron quotes Burroughs, who famously remarked in the sixties that "The cut-up > method brings to writers the collage, which has been used by painters for > fifty years." Burroughs also notes its use in film and photography. > > The cutup involves a media artist's or painter's sense of the writer's > 'material'. Usually when a writer speaks of 'the material' of his or her > writing, what's referred to is the subject matter and the little sub-stories > or central metaphors, that sort of thing, not the media. > > Practice in other arts is generally more familiar with the energies and > methodologies of the cut. Partially because the grammars of image and sound > are not associated with so many rules and expectations. The structures of > sentences are predicated on scads of grammar rules. Whereas when images are > created, the rules are not so strong. To break the rules of grammar is > something that is seemingly more involved in breaking useful rules about how > we make sense to one another than the same sorts of operations in the visual > or sonic. The constraints upon the syntax of sentences are more deeply > structural than the constraints in visual art or sound art or even film. We > spend years learning the rules of grammar and how to write coherent > sentences, paragraphs, etc, and it's hard-won, a 'triumph into literacy'. To > then start working with cutups involves a radically different branching out > into language. It's more a 'branching out' than simply a 'different step'. > It's multiple, combinatorial. > > So part of the answer to Ron's question of 'why this moment in history for > the cutup?' must surely be that the technique has been cultivated in many > other arts over the last hundred years. Even if the technique is more > problematical in writing, the adoption in literary practice has clearly > followed from practice in other arts. > > But why has this technique come to be more or less commonly practiced in so > many arts over the last century? > > Partly because when working with media such as film or audio tape, cutting > apart/together is necessary in even modest journalistic compositions, never > mind getting fancy with the razor blade and getting a feel for it as a > stroke of art. The materiality of film and recorded sound has been crucial, > I suspect. But even in modernism, there's collaging in things like Pound's > Cantos and widespread experimentation with juxtaposition in, say, > surrealism. Or the visual publications of Dada and Futurism. But it's less > developed as part of a world view. What distinguishes Burroughs in his work > with the audio and written cutup is not only that disturbing brilliant > trilogy and his influential audio cutups, but the world view he wrote about > and developed both in the work and in fascinating writings about the method > and its relations to cognition, addiction, originality, intention, > goverance, language as virus... > > It's not simply the work itself but the world view etched into the work and > life. Burroughs developed a whole poetics or philosophy of the cutup. The > cutup is not simply a technique of novelty for him. It's a technique to help > alter one's own programming as a writer. It also involves questioning > conscious intention as the only way to worthwhile, consequential, even > 'authentic' writing. "When you cut audio tape, the future leaks out." The > future of writing, for instance. > > One can look at the cutup as a consequence of explorations, as above, of the > materiality of media, whether the medium is visual or sonic or textual. > > I would ask you to also look at the following and its relations with the > growing emphasis throughout the twentieth century on materiality. > > Concerning the language machine, I gotta say--with great enthusiasm--go out > and buy Martin Davis's book "The Universal Computer: From Leibniz to Turing" > (the softcover version is called "Engines of Logic"). That book gives a > better sense than any other I've encountered of the proximity of things like > the development of the computer to our whole sense of language. Davis traces > the development of the computer from "Leibniz's dream" of basically a > language of symbolic logic and a machine capable of generating true > propositions in that language. > > I suggest that the cutup technique is part of a whole change in our > perspectives on language and machines--and ourselves. > > In the theory of computation, language is one of the central subjects of > study--in the same sort of way that billiard-ball-like-objects are a central > concern of physics. In the theory of computation, language is studied as > strings of letters that can be generated, parsed, recognized, etc. The > theory looks at the *mathematical* properties of such collections of > strings, or languages. This isn't quite the same as an emphasis on the > materiality of language, but it's obviously related in that it involves > operations on strings of symbols, operations more or less independent of the > 'meaning' of the symbols. > > In the literary and general art history of the twentieth century, we see a > growing concern with and practice involving cutups and their related > techniques of collage and juxtaposition. Involving what were unusual > operations on language and image, tape, film, etc. And we also see the rise > of the theory of computation in which language is crucial. Language is > crucial to programmability and the whole idea of the computer, going all the > way back to Leibniz. It has often been said that language draws a magic > circle round the realm of the thinkable. And the programmable. > > Our thoughts and images on what a human being is have changed in the > twentieth century, have expanded to include the notion that we are soft > machines. Just as Darwin gave us the conceptual framework to imagine > humanity proceeding from the evolution of the most primitive of life-forms, > so too has the theory of computation and its consequences given us the > conceptual tools to imagine the mind as a soft computing machine--that > wildly exceeds, at the moment, the capacities of all modern computers. > Still, there is no accepted proof that there exist thought processes of > which humans are capable and computers are not, in theory and eventual > practice. > > So that the fusion of language and logic, in the realization of Leibniz's > dream, results in machines and languages capable of thought itself. That is > what thought is. > > And the cutup becomes a type of operation on language involved in our > growing awareness of the poetential fecundity of dynamic process in > language. The cutup lets us peek into the interzones of texts, the > nether-worlds between the lines where the cyborg emerges. > > ja > http://vispo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It IS a tag team match -- that's the fun of it -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:02:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Fw: kari edwards memorial reading, Thursday, Dec, 21, 2006, 7pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Please join the Los Angeles poetry community and High Energy > Constructs in honoring the life and work of poet, artist, and > (trans)gender activist, kari edwards. kari died of heart failure at > the age of 52 on Saturday, December 2, 2006. kari's life and work > was an ongoing revolution of body and language, as well as a > revelation of human potential. Not only a dear friend and supporter > of High Energy Constructs, kari was also one of the artists > included in High Energy Constructs' Fall 2006 exhibition, Many Happy > Returns. kari's work as a gender activist, radical writer, and > social sculptor was - and will continue to be - some of the most > honest, compassionate, and evolved necessary action in today's > world. > > Friends and poets, Marcus Civin, Jen Hofer, Mary Kite, Eileen Myles, > Michael Smoler, Justin Veach, and others gather to read, perform, > and speak in memory and tribute to the spirit of kari edwards, on > Thursday, December 21, 2006, at 7 pm. > > > a reading for kari edwards > Thursday, December 21, 2006 > 7 pm > (this is a free and open event) > > HIGH ENERGY > CONSTRUCTS > 990 N. Hill St., #180 > Los Angeles, CA 90012 > > > For more information regarding this gathering please call > 323.227.7920. > > kari edwards (1954 - 2006) was a poet ,artist and gender activist , > winner of New Langton Art's Bay Area Award in literature (2002); was > the author of have been blue for charity , BlazeVox (2006); > obedience , Factory School (2005); iduna , O Books (2003); a day in > the life of p ., subpress collective (2002); a diary of lies , > Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002); obLiqUE paRt(itON): > colLABorationS , xPress(ed) (2002); and post/(pink), Scarlet Press > (2000), as well as poetry editor for Transgender Tapestry magazine. > edwards' work has appeared in numerous publications, such as > anthologies Blood and Tears: Poems for Matthew Shepard , Painted > leaf Press (2000), and Electric Spandex: anthology of writing the > queer text , Pyriform Press (2002); as well as been exhibited > throughout the United States , including Denver art museum, New > Orleans contemporary art museum, University of California -- San > Diego , and University of Massachusetts -- Amherst . edwards' work > can also be found in Bombay Gin, Belight Fiction, In Posse, > Mirage/Period(ical), Van Gogh's Ear, PuppyFlower, Vert, 88: A > Journal of Contemporary American Poetry, Narrativity, Shampoo, > xStream, Rain Taxi, Big Bridge, Nerve Lantern, > muse-apprentice-guild, Avoid Strange Men, Bird Dog Magizine, > RealPoetik, Raised in a Barn, and The International Journal of > Sexuality and Gender Studies. > > >>HIGH ENERGY >>CONSTRUCTS >>990 N. Hill St., #180 >>Los Angeles, CA 90012 > > >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered > by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:17:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: What does "logotomy" mean? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My partner Camille informs me that gossip in Romanian is "barfa" (first "a" with a circumflex). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:49:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Raymond Bianchi Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers Comments: cc: Hank Lazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what a rogues gallery- I cannot think of anything better than a reading with this many academics!!!!! -------------- Original message -------------- From: Hank Lazer > Here's an updated listing of readers for The Annual MLA Off-Site Poetry > Reading, Friday, December 29th, 9-11 pm, organized by Bob Pereleman, > sponsored by the University of Alabama Press and the Modern and Contemporary > Poetics Series. > > Location: Philadelphia Arts Alliance, 251 South 18th Street (southeast > corner of Rittenhouse Square) > > >Nat Anderson > >Dennis Barone > >Herman Beavers > >Charles Bernstein > >Caroline Bergvall > >Christian Bok > >C. A. Conrad > >Matthew Cooperman > >Michael Davidson > >Tom Devaney > >Linh Dinh > >Johanna Drucker > >Patrick Durgin > >Michael Tod Edgerton > >Cathy Eisenhower > >Eduardo Espino > >Adam Fieled > >Loren Goodman > >Carla Harryman > >William Howe > >Yunte Huang > >Aaron Kunin > >Hank Lazer > >Leevi Lehto > >Walter Lew > >Camille Martin > >Peter Middleton > >Nick Monfort > >Laura Moriarty > >Aldon Neilsen > >Tom Orange > >Osman Jena > >Bob Perelman > >Ethel Rackin > >Joan Retallack > >Linda Russo > >Jennifer Scappetone > >Susan Schultz > >Kathy Lou Schultz > >Josh Schuster > >Prageeta Sharma > >Frank Sherlock > >Evie Shockley > >Juliana Spahr > >Sasha Steensen > >Brian Stefans > >Lamont Steptoe > >Elaine Terranova > >Mark Wallace > >Barrett Watten > >John Wilkinson > >Tyrone Williams > >Timothy Yu > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:57:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: script with stupid question (another dose of poetics) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi Alan On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> Alan, when you say meaning is a construct "across" symbols, neither within >> them or their definitions, that puts me in mind of two things. >> >> the first is Wittgensteins pronouncement that meaning reduces to the >> function of words in a language in almost all cases, and that if you know >> how a word is used in a language then you know what the word means. >> > I'm not sure where this is? Wittgenstein developed the notion of language games > - that definitions are fuzzy; he used the example of "game." It's impossible to > pin down the meaning of "game" - every attribute is suscept- ible to > contradiction. So the word game is fluid/fluent, dependent on context which it > also modifies, is part of. It's an extreme conventional- > ism I think. the language game and "meaning as use" are close allies in Wittgenstein's later thought. He relied on both very heavily, particularly in the Blue and Brown Books. By the last redacting of Philosophical Investigations, he'd, I think, come to the conclusion that laying out language games and "meaning as use" as theoretical devices was an inherently flawed philosophical method that would only lead to more confusion. (On that note, I think he was right as I think the case of Richard Rorty's reading of Wittgenstein illustrates.) For references, I don't remember the paragraph number off hand, but there's a comment early in PI that reads "For a large number of cases, though not for all, the meaning of a word is it's use in a language game." I'm quoting from memory, so it might be slightly different, but I'm pretty sure it comes in the first third of PI right around the repudiation of the picture theory and after the championing of vagueness, if you want to look it up. There are also a lot of admonitions in particularly his lectures on aesthetics and ethics and the remarks on the foundations of mathematics to "look to how a word is used." when it seems to create a philosophical problem. Zettel's discussion of "intention" i think demonstrates the sort of analysis he was thinking about in those comments. >> the second is the philosophical conception of supervenience which is defined >> generally as follows: "a set of stuff A supervenes on a set of some stuff B >> iff. nothing can differ about A without differring about B as well." >> > Can you give me a source here? This is fascinating! It's a bit like super- > imposition in Land's color theory (and the breakdown of Aristotelian dis- > tributivity). stanfords internet encyclopedia of philosophy has a good article on it, although it's a bit technical. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/supervenience/#2.1 Wikipedia is a bit less dry, but also a lot less coherent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervenience It's a word that originally comes from a particular school of thought in early 20th c. philosophy philosophy of mind, but it get's used all over the place now a days, i've encountered it mostly in metaphysics and ethics. Hope that's helpful! Jason ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:54:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Until you are adept enough In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0612192029o4ae1ed19p206b58ea5a7aeb4f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I really like that! It's really cool! Tracey On 12/19/06, Peter Ciccariello wrote: > > Until you are adept enough > > > -- Peter Ciccariello > Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:07:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Here's a thought, and I really do hope nobody takes this as raining on anybody's parade, esp. in light of the effort it takes to pull this kind of thing together: Why can't 60+ poets get together just to jaw, as opposed to reading to one another? I'm puzzled by this, and have been for years now. I show up every year, I listen, I try to eek out a few words under my breath to someone I haven't seen in months or years, someone who's doing likewise. Often we talk -- whisper, gesture -- about how nice it would be just to shoot the shit, and often we pretend to pay attention, esp. as the evening wears on. Now that's just me. I like to gab. I don't like readings with 60+ people. Aldon -- someone with whom I would like to shoot the shit at said reading -- thinks it's fun. I don't think it's fun -- I think it's something of a drag, in fact, b/c there are so many people that I won't otherwise have a chance to talk to, given the dynamics of MLA. So I always leave said reading feeling like it's a missed opportunity. It's certainly not the note I'd like to see my MLA experience conclude on. I'd much rather be, well, gabbing. Again, not to rain on anyone's parade. I don't wish to come off as even a little bit cranky. I'm just suggesting something that I've suggested to any number of individuals (i.e., participating poets) for years now, generally (generally) to nods of agreement. And yet here we all are, talking about that MLA group reading again. Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:30:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i actually love the soundbite nature of the mega-readings. everything's sweet n short; if someone's boring, they're only boring for 2 minutes. and if someone's great, you know enough to know that, to pursue their work and to tell them how great they were. of course i like talking too. i like sitting w/ folks i can kibbitz with sotto voce. last time in philly i sat on the couch w/ lee ann brown, who was breast-feeding, and juliana spahr, who was knitting. i was x-stitching. we were, like, the 1970s contingent, with our long hair to boot. At 4:07 PM -0600 12/20/06, Joe Amato wrote: >Here's a thought, and I really do hope nobody takes this as raining >on anybody's parade, esp. in light of the effort it takes to pull >this kind of thing together: > >Why can't 60+ poets get together just to jaw, as opposed to reading >to one another? I'm puzzled by this, and have been for years now. >I show up every year, I listen, I try to eek out a few words under >my breath to someone I haven't seen in months or years, someone >who's doing likewise. Often we talk -- whisper, gesture -- about >how nice it would be just to shoot the shit, and often we pretend to >pay attention, esp. as the evening wears on. > >Now that's just me. I like to gab. I don't like readings with 60+ >people. Aldon -- someone with whom I would like to shoot the shit >at said reading -- thinks it's fun. I don't think it's fun -- I >think it's something of a drag, in fact, b/c there are so many >people that I won't otherwise have a chance to talk to, given the >dynamics of MLA. So I always leave said reading feeling like it's a >missed opportunity. It's certainly not the note I'd like to see my >MLA experience conclude on. I'd much rather be, well, gabbing. > >Again, not to rain on anyone's parade. I don't wish to come off as >even a little bit cranky. I'm just suggesting something that I've >suggested to any number of individuals (i.e., participating poets) >for years now, generally (generally) to nods of agreement. And yet >here we all are, talking about that MLA group reading again. > >Best, > >Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:15:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: MLA book signing, Thursday 28th Dec, 2-3 o'clock, Iowa booth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" And along the lines of shooting the shit: To remind everyone attending MLA in Philly that I'll be giving a book signing at the U of Iowa Press booth (in the Book Exhibit area) on Thursday 28 December from 2:00 to 3:00 -- my new UIP item, Industrial Poetics -- or, chatting with anyone who drops by just to chat. If you're free then, please do drop by and say hi! Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:38:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: Until you are adept enough In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks Tracey, I appreciate your comment. - Peter On 12/20/06, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > I really like that! It's really cool! > > Tracey > > > On 12/19/06, Peter Ciccariello wrote: > > > > Until you are adept enough > > > > > > -- Peter Ciccariello > > Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ > > > -- Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ Word -http://poemsfromprovidence.blogspot.com/ Photography -http://uncommonvision.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:05:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: cole swensen's "ghosts are hope," only a dollar!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The next ten contributors to http://observable.org/dollar/ will receive a copy of Cole Swensen's new chapbook "Ghosts Are Hope." The third in the Observable Books series, "Ghosts" was printed in a limited edition of 250 with a letterpressed cover designed by Eric Woods. See http://observable.org for more info. C'mon people, we're nearly there! Belz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:07:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Until you are adept enough Comments: cc: "Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics"@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0612201438u1da5c59dl32197c6c611a7815@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I like it, too, Peter. One suggestion - why not blur the incised words on the tablet. Even if ironic, it makes the piece a bit preachy for me. Where I think the messenger's bloodied body - strangled by chaotic (destroyed) script is plenty adequate re 'the statement'. G Bush - tho apparently still clueless - wrapped and not yet fully strangled in his own script makes good mirror. Trouble being we -this country - is spiraling down with him. The military is not the only thing stretched too thin - maybe we should talk 'moral fiber', big time. On the dark side of the solstice! Stephen V > Thanks Tracey, I appreciate your comment. > > - Peter > > > On 12/20/06, Tracey Gagne wrote: >> >> I really like that! It's really cool! >> >> Tracey >> >> >> On 12/19/06, Peter Ciccariello wrote: >>> >>> Until you are adept enough >>> >>> >>> -- Peter Ciccariello >>> Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ >>> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:37:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe, I often wonder the same thing. However, many poets will not attend such an event if they aren't given a bit of stage time. I wonder, if the list were cut down to thirty, how many of the eliminated poets would even show up. Poets, in my experience, prefer being showcased to merely listening or hanging out. The irony, as noted recently on this list, is that their audience is mostly other poets. I think it would be funny to come to a reading like this, read your 2 minutes, then immediately leave. Wouldn't that be rude?? It would also be funny to stand up and say, "I'm passing my two minutes to Susan Schultz. Let her read for four!! Her new stuff is phenomenal!" And sit back down. Of course that would never happen. Okay, wait-- I challenge one of the Nifty Sixty to pass their minutes to another poet. I'll buy that poet's alcohol for the rest of the night. This is a real offer. Email me if your interested. In any case, i'll be there, and I'd love to chat with you again-- Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:08:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612191607y442d5e08q1aabcdccf3365f5d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit during burroughs's time, for the most part, 'programming' had more or less thoroughly sinister connotations. 'programming' was something they did. to us. mind control. mainframe computers in government and corporate labs shaping mindframe. framing. main. mind. control. programming the colossus. the man. the machine. the man's machine. but with the spread of personal computers, the internet, and many people driving computers like mindbats through satellite data storms, maybe attitudes have changed toward 'programming'. i make 'software art'. my attitude toward programming is that it is a written thing i and others create that operates in the world just as poetry does. i think of it as a literary creation. and an architectural creation. a hybrid of engineering and art, of art and science, of visual and textual, of audio and interactivity. on a different but related topic, the stupifying popularity of roger penrose's fallacious 'proofs' that there are thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not testifies to the depth of the widespread desire to establish that the mind is not only superior now to any machine but must forever be. the reaction is similar to how people reacted--some still do--to darwin's theory that we evolved from the simplest of life-forms: fear and disbelief. but we have had 150 years to think about it, and the enlightened approach is that we are not diminished by darwin's theory of evolution. not one bit. the same is true of the idea that the mind is fundamentally software in a wetware brain/body. we simply now have the beginnings to understand the mind more deeply than we did before, and still have a long way to go. we do not yet even understand the mechanisms by which memories are stored and retrieved by the brain. when we do, that will be an achievement on the order of darwin's theory and the discovery of dna. so don't cry, heidi. the idea that our minds are information processing systems that operate in ways we are not millenia from understanding is exciting, surely, and offers us the possibility of deeper understanding of ourselves, our fellow humans and other animals. and i can't help but think that the study of language will be crucial here, also--we will understand language in a more general sense than we do now, along at least one more dimension. we can't be diminished by self understanding, in the end. ja > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of heidi arnold > Sent: December 19, 2006 4:08 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming > > > Jim, > > -- this is so reductive as an analysis i could just sit here and cry -- > > -- not to worry, an old bottle of scotch will do -- > > -- heidi > > On 12/19/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > > > Thanks for the terrific post on Burroughs and the cutup. And the revolt > > against programming. > > > > Just one thing I'd like to comment on, and that's the "revolt against > > programming". > > > > If we are soft machines and the mind is basically software in a wetware > > body/brain, then we may strive to understand our own programming and > > re-program it, hopefully, when we suffer from its limitations, and scrap > > some nasty routines, and revolt against programming imposed on us by > > others...and react in other ways as well to programming in different > > situations. But a universal revolt against any and all > programming misses > > the point that it's largely a matter of re-programming that is in order, > > given the inescapable condition of our minds themselves being > programmable > > (and programmed) information processing systems. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:53:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Call for Proposals: Education for Liberation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Free Minds, Free People Deadline: January 30, 2007 A conference taking place in Chicago Thursday, June 21 to Sunday, June 24, 2007 will bring together teachers, youth, parents, researchers and community-based educators from across the country to begin building a movement to develop and promote Education for Liberation. Education for Liberation is an umbrella term we use to describe the work of people who are trying to link education, social justice and activism. Other more common terms are popular education, social justice education, survival schools or Freedom Schools. The conference will take place at the new social justice Little Village High School. Conference organizers are seeking individuals and organizations who would like to plan and facilitate discussions, panels, workshops, demonstrations and/or activities that will help develop our understanding and practice of Education for Liberation. Your proposed activity should be designed to last approximately one and a half hours. They are aiming for a diverse audience and a wide variety of conference activities. This conference is sponsored by The Chicago Freedom School Project, the Education for Liberation Network, The Brotherhood/Sister Sol and the University of Chicago's Center for Urban School Improvement. E-mail freeminds@Brotherhood-Sistersol.org for information on guidelines to submit your proposal. More info at http://www.edliberation.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:18:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 a couple quick observations -- first of all, since when does Joe Amatao not want to come off as even a little bit cranky? Say it ain't so, Joe! We wouldn't have you any other way -- a few years ago at one of these mass readings in D.C., Rosmarie Waldrop demonstrated just the sort of generosity with time Aaron suggested -- She was the subject of an MLA panel that year, she explained, so she was relinquishing some of her time at the reading in favor of the rest of the poets. Then too, there is usually somebody who has to be reminded that the time was up some time ago -- I hope that won't be me this year -- yes, it would be rude to leave right after your own reading -- it would be rude to skip ALL the poets before you -- in most years, it's seemed to me, people come & go as at a new music festival-- yes, it would be great if we all had more time to visit -- many of us will find time to visit a bit at MLA itself -- but I still think it's a great thing for all of us to show up and relish our numbers, even in an MLA year like this one that gives more attention to poetry than usual -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:25:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jim Andrews wrote: > > on a different but related topic, the stupifying popularity of roger > penrose's fallacious 'proofs' that there are thought processes of which > humans are capable and computers are not testifies to the depth of the > widespread desire to establish that the mind is not only superior now to any > machine but must forever be. > Just out of curiosity, and because I have never bothered to read penrose because i have my own set of reasons for disbelieving in strong AI that have nothing to do with physics, my understanding is that penrose's argument isn't that we can't give machines consciousness, but that it isn't possible to give machines consciousness using algorithms. Is that correct? And if so, it seems like a plausible position to me that works along the same lines as searle's difficult to get out from under Chinese Room thought experiment. I find all this stuff really interesting. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:43:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I think machine consciousness will be superior to human. Humans can only seem to imagine machine consciousness as it pertains to their own place in the class system, ergo, their personal PHILOSOPHY. How would an autonomous machine consciousness need any social stratification? Jason Quackenbush wrote: > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jim Andrews wrote: > >> >> on a different but related topic, the stupifying popularity of roger >> penrose's fallacious 'proofs' that there are thought processes of which >> humans are capable and computers are not testifies to the depth of the >> widespread desire to establish that the mind is not only superior now >> to any >> machine but must forever be. >> > > Just out of curiosity, and because I have never bothered to read > penrose because i have my own set of reasons for disbelieving in > strong AI that have nothing to do with physics, my understanding is > that penrose's argument isn't that we can't give machines > consciousness, but that it isn't possible to give machines > consciousness using algorithms. Is that correct? And if so, it seems > like a plausible position to me that works along the same lines as > searle's difficult to get out from under Chinese Room thought experiment. > > I find all this stuff really interesting. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:10:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Just out of curiosity, and because I have never bothered to read > penrose because i have my own set of reasons for disbelieving in > strong AI that have nothing to do with physics, my understanding > is that penrose's argument isn't that we can't give machines > consciousness, but that it isn't possible to give machines > consciousness using algorithms. Is that correct? And if so, it > seems like a plausible position to me that works along the same > lines as searle's difficult to get out from under Chinese Room > thought experiment. The book I keep mentioning, "Engines of Logic" by Martin Davis--who is an emminent USAmerican logician, by the way--ends with a chapter on how Penrose's arguments are fallacious. Some of the prettiest work in the theory of computation establishes that there exist some tasks for which no algorithm can be devised. The classic example is called 'the halting problem'. Google that and you'll get a gaggle of results. So Penrose sets out to prove that there are some thought processes of which humans are capable but for which no algorithm can be devised. If no algorithm can be devised for a task or process, then the task or process cannot be carried out on a computer because all that can be done with computers is expressable in terms of algorithms. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:34:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I know it takes effort to ignore somebody, but will anyone agree that the great flaw of human consciousness is a self-perpetuating need for social stratification to acquire knowledge? Does machine consciousness mean the end of privilege? Is that the fear? The bourgeois will fear nothing more than losing his social privilege. The bourgeois will tell you straight-faced that she "chose" her parents. Does that not express a terrible fear of losing one's privilege? To imagine machine consciousness is to imagine the loss of one's own privilege, & ergo, to imagine being SLAVE to that consciousness, as it were. Pretty terrifying, huh? Like falling off the edge of the earth. Jim Andrews wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, and because I have never bothered to read >> penrose because i have my own set of reasons for disbelieving in >> strong AI that have nothing to do with physics, my understanding >> is that penrose's argument isn't that we can't give machines >> consciousness, but that it isn't possible to give machines >> consciousness using algorithms. Is that correct? And if so, it >> seems like a plausible position to me that works along the same >> lines as searle's difficult to get out from under Chinese Room >> thought experiment. >> > > The book I keep mentioning, "Engines of Logic" by Martin Davis--who is an > emminent USAmerican logician, by the way--ends with a chapter on how > Penrose's arguments are fallacious. > > Some of the prettiest work in the theory of computation establishes that > there exist some tasks for which no algorithm can be devised. The classic > example is called 'the halting problem'. Google that and you'll get a gaggle > of results. > > So Penrose sets out to prove that there are some thought processes of which > humans are capable but for which no algorithm can be devised. If no > algorithm can be devised for a task or process, then the task or process > cannot be carried out on a computer because all that can be done with > computers is expressable in terms of algorithms. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:44:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Strong AI MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room thought experiment, and let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! Searle must think very highly of hisself, if he thinks he could process Chinese faster than Deep Blue, which, I add, Kasparov claimed played a move "too human" to be computed, and that was a decade ago. The greatest chess mind ever, famed for his infinitely subtle play! How is the Chinese Room thought experiment "difficult" at all, when considering for advancement in computational speeds? The human mind processes "language symbols" at, we can practically state, at near light speed. When machines can do this, they will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought experiment is quite silly, in my opinion. On the other side, you have the notion of STRONG artificial intelligence. Why do we say "strong," when we could say practical or even, to be simple, good? Because a statement of "strength" is a roundabout way of claiming absolute dominion by a particular sphere of privilege and influence. Very intelligent human beings are often pitiably weak. Would you say their minds are strong, because they can recite some Chaucer over a bottle of cheap scotch, or go into greater detail of the Chinese Room thought experiment---? Idano, I'm just saying... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 05:03:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sickness was near MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed sickness was near avec Maud Liardon et Foofwa d'Imobilite choreograph upon the moment of the rose M Rilke you will move your hands and you will move your hands and your hands will turn against the air, wandering into being, the village cut of heaven, sheets of pages, books and ground absence for whom the mirror, journey, against the tain, back to back, where words grow only within the sea drowned in sea, air drowned in air, Raron Nah war die Krankheit (RMR) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woNIJ-b2TFo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 06:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Strong AI Comments: To: Jesse Crockett In-Reply-To: <458A031B.90608@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 20 Dec 2006 at 21:44, Jesse Crockett wrote: > Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room thought > experiment, and let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! Searle must > think very highly of hisself, if he thinks he could process > Chinese faster than Deep Blue which, I add, Kasparov claimed > played a move "too human" to be computed, and that was a decade > ago. The greatest chess mind ever, famed for his infinitely subtle > play! How is the Chinese Room thought experiment "difficult" at > all, when considering for advancement in computational speeds? > The human mind processes "language symbols" at, we can > practically state, at near light speed. When machines can do this, > they will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought experiment is > quite silly, in my opinion. On the other side, you have the notion > of STRONG artificial intelligence. Why do we say "strong," when > we could say practical or even, to be simple, good? Because a > statement of "strength" is a roundabout way of claiming absolute > dominion by a particular sphere of privilege and influence. Very > intelligent human beings are often pitiably weak. Would you say > their minds are strong, because they can recite some Chaucer over > a bottle of cheap scotch, or go into greater detail of the Chinese > Room thought experiment---? Idano, I'm just saying... This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is not the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who doesn't know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary to correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, can be said to understand Chinese. Searle's answer is that the monolingual English speaker in the box, manipulating correlations of symbols he doesn't understand the meanings of, doesn't himself understand Chinese, even though people outside the box who are submitting Chinese questions and getting Chinese answers might say that the box understands Chinese. Speed is not the issue; whether people outside the box say the box understands Chinese while we know that the person inside the box does NOT understand Chinese constitutes the criticism of "strong AI", because it means that a computer, which is after all a box for manipulating symbols, doesn't understand the meaning or significance of its symbol manipulation; it just does it. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:57:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458A2D5D.26911.297DDB5@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Makes me think, and not being difficult, of someone trying to say why it is that we play baseball - without understanding that our folksiness (and the Irish working class) so folksy - and I have learned to appreciate this aspect of our democracy, perhaps the root of European resentment, so prefered rounders to, well, cricket! AJ --- Marcus Bales wrote: > On 20 Dec 2006 at 21:44, Jesse Crockett wrote: > > Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room > thought > > experiment, and let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! > Searle must > > think very highly of hisself, if he thinks he > could process > > Chinese faster than Deep Blue which, I add, > Kasparov claimed > > played a move "too human" to be computed, and that > was a decade > > ago. The greatest chess mind ever, famed for his > infinitely subtle > > play! How is the Chinese Room thought experiment > "difficult" at > > all, when considering for advancement in > computational speeds? > > The human mind processes "language symbols" > at, we can > > practically state, at near light speed. When > machines can do this, > > they will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought > experiment is > > quite silly, in my opinion. On the other side, > you have the notion > > of STRONG artificial intelligence. Why do we say > "strong," when > > we could say practical or even, to be simple, > good? Because a > > statement of "strength" is a roundabout way of > claiming absolute > > dominion by a particular sphere of privilege and > influence. Very > > intelligent human beings are often pitiably weak. > Would you say > > their minds are strong, because they can recite > some Chaucer over > > a bottle of cheap scotch, or go into greater > detail of the Chinese > > Room thought experiment---? Idano, I'm just > saying... > > This seems to me to misunderstand the problem > entirely. Speed is not > the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. > The question is > whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the > room, who doesn't > know any Chinese, but who is given the books and > rules necessary to > correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then > produces > responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese > characters > without any other help that Chinese speakers accept > as Chinese, can > be said to understand Chinese. Searle's answer is > that the > monolingual English speaker in the box, manipulating > correlations of > symbols he doesn't understand the meanings of, > doesn't himself > understand Chinese, even though people outside the > box who are > submitting Chinese questions and getting Chinese > answers might say > that the box understands Chinese. Speed is not the > issue; whether > people outside the box say the box understands > Chinese while we know > that the person inside the box does NOT understand > Chinese > constitutes the criticism of "strong AI", because it > means that a > computer, which is after all a box for manipulating > symbols, doesn't > understand the meaning or significance of its symbol > manipulation; it > just does it. > > Marcus > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:21:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458A2D5D.26911.297DDB5@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Yes, when I can compute Chinese fast enough to convince a native speaker of the language that I knows Chinese, I in fact can then be said to understand the language. Yeah, I had foregone that point. Marcus Bales wrote: > > This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is not > the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is > whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who doesn't > know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary to > correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces > responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters > without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, can > be said to understand Chinese. Searle's answer is that the > monolingual English speaker in the box, manipulating correlations of > symbols he doesn't understand the meanings of, doesn't himself > understand Chinese, even though people outside the box who are > submitting Chinese questions and getting Chinese answers might say > that the box understands Chinese. Speed is not the issue; whether > people outside the box say the box understands Chinese while we know > that the person inside the box does NOT understand Chinese > constitutes the criticism of "strong AI", because it means that a > computer, which is after all a box for manipulating symbols, doesn't > understand the meaning or significance of its symbol manipulation; it > just does it. > > Marcus > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:30:40 -0600 Reply-To: wchapman@iwu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wes Chapman Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458A2D5D.26911.297DDB5@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is not > the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is > whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who doesn't > know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary to > correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces > responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters > without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, can > be said to understand Chinese. And this admirably clear paraphrase shows why Searle's thought experiment is misguided: it confuses the speaker within the room with the mind that understands Chinese. Presumably Searle would not require individual neurons involved in language processing, or even brain structures involved in language processing, to understand a language, yet this is precisely the role played by the mono-lingual speaker in the room. If the room is successfully responding to Chinese, then the *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking up symbols, must understand Chinese. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:42:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Andy Campbell, Dreamingmethods.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an exceptional site in literary new media: http://dreamingmethods.com by Andy Campbell from the UK. I have yet to explore this site as thoroughly as I believe it deserves but have, so far, spent about an hour perusing several works. They're the sort of works that require multiple viewings/readings. You glimpse, initially. And you're not quite sure what you're glimpsing. The pieces are, in some sense, made of glimpses. They involve elements of narrative but do not seem to have the full meal deal concerning story. They glimpse into story. Are tantalizing in that one wonders what they add up to and how deeply one can go in such directions. These are works created, in part, with Flash. They are distinctively visual. Somewhat cinematic. Interactive. Textual. Atmospherically sonic. Dark and brooding. "Surface" is described as "A matrix of memories, fragmented thoughts, animated scribbles, poetry and narratives from a protagonist who has burned every last one of his material belongings." The synopsis of another is this: "Living alone and secluded, an elderly man keeps a surreal record of his dreams as he is slowly poisoned by his gas fire leaking carbon monoxide." I appreciate the way Campbell is working integrally with text, image, sound, interactivity/interface, fiction, poetry, the cinematic, and the overall notion of the site as literary work. Integrally and also centrally with incompleteness. All of the pieces are fragmentary. Glimpsing. Campbell himself describes the site like this: "Dreaming Methods projects are created as an exploration into innovative new approaches to writing. They use the unique potential of the internet and multimedia to blend unusual, creative narratives with other art forms. These works are not "e-books" or hypertext sites in the traditional sense, nor do they adhere to the usual styles and standards incorporated into "quality" Flash sites. The aim of Digital Fiction is to use Flash to create interesting ways of telling stories and creating abstract narratives; to offer a blend of challenging writing, entertainment and interaction." "Digital Fiction as a reading experience offers a purposely, almost naturally, fragmented narrative; sentences, happenings, cut off as though erased, re-emerge elsewhere; complex text animations allow only random fleeting glimpses of what is or what might be going on; the choice is yours not only in which direction you click or scroll - but in which direction you allow the narrative to take you. Or, in which direction you wish to take the narrative." ja ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:11:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458AA8A0.5010708@iwu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Let's pat each other on the back for what "we know." You question *understanding* and not what it means to process instructions. Understanding is often a function of privilege; for instance, you're more likely to be understanding and compassionate towards somebody you perceive to be within your social milieu, & behave somewhat more dispassionately towards another who is perceived to be either above or below or outside your station. Then it's convenient for each party to claim "a misunderstanding." Say I point you to the Application Programming Interface of Java, & tell you to make a program that outputs "Hello, world." It would take you quite a while, given only the API, and no prior knowledge, to make that program. But after six months you could write much more complex programs, possibly convince an employer to hire you, with nothing but your smarts and the API. You will know how write efficient Java code, & what will you say when I ask, "Do you understand Java?" You will say yes. So there are degrees of understanding. It shouldn't be relevant what the observer may or may not know. Understanding is understood in different ways. Wes Chapman wrote: >> >> This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is not >> the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is >> whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who doesn't >> know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary to >> correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces >> responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters >> without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, can >> be said to understand Chinese. > > > And this admirably clear paraphrase shows why Searle's thought > experiment is misguided: it confuses the speaker within the room with > the mind that understands Chinese. Presumably Searle would not > require individual neurons involved in language processing, or even > brain structures involved in language processing, to understand a > language, yet this is precisely the role played by the mono-lingual > speaker in the room. If the room is successfully responding to > Chinese, then the *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking up > symbols, must understand Chinese. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:11:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: cole swensen's "ghosts are hope" - ONE DOLLAR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey everyone, This is a great book, and as of now, there are still four copies remaining for a contribution of ONE DOLLAR or more. Go to http://observable.org/dollar/, PayPal your contribution, and expect a limited edition Cole Swensen chapbook delivered to your mailbox in the next week or so. No extra cost for postage, etc. I'll also put your name and URL on the page. I run these promotions a couple of times a year to raise awareness about Observable. Gotta run, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Strong AI Comments: To: Jesse Crockett In-Reply-To: <458AA66E.3090700@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 21 Dec 2006 at 9:21, Jesse Crockett wrote: > Yes, when I can compute Chinese fast enough to convince a native > speaker > of the language that I knows Chinese, I in fact can then be said > to > understand the language. Yeah, I had foregone that point. Not only is speed is not the issue, speed has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. The question is whether a monolingual English speaker who is given rules for manipulating Chinese characters and who does manipulate the Chinese characters in response to other Chinese characters so that a Chinese speaker accepts the answers as given by a Chinese speaker, can that monolingual English speaker be said to understand Chinese? M > > > > Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is > not > > the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is > > whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who > doesn't > > know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary > to > > correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces > > responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters > > without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, > can > > be said to understand Chinese. Searle's answer is that the > > monolingual English speaker in the box, manipulating correlations > of > > symbols he doesn't understand the meanings of, doesn't himself > > understand Chinese, even though people outside the box who are > > submitting Chinese questions and getting Chinese answers might say > > that the box understands Chinese. Speed is not the issue; whether > > people outside the box say the box understands Chinese while we > know > > that the person inside the box does NOT understand Chinese > > constitutes the criticism of "strong AI", because it means that a > > computer, which is after all a box for manipulating symbols, > doesn't > > understand the meaning or significance of its symbol manipulation; > it > > just does it. > > > > Marcus > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 09:35:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458AA8A0.5010708@iwu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is not > > the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is > > whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who doesn't > > know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary to > > correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces > > responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters > > without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, can > > be said to understand Chinese. > > > And this admirably clear paraphrase shows why Searle's thought > experiment is misguided: it confuses the speaker within the room with > the mind that understands Chinese. Presumably Searle would not require > individual neurons involved in language processing, or even brain > structures involved in language processing, to understand a language, > yet this is precisely the role played by the mono-lingual speaker in the > room. If the room is successfully responding to Chinese, then the *room > as a whole*, not the speaker looking up symbols, must understand Chinese. Yes, this was also my impression of Searle's argument. I note that Martin Davis in "Engines of Logic" discusses Searle's argument and says much the same as you, Wes. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:40:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: What does "logotomy" mean? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The elision of all logic from a topic, sentence or paragraph. On 12/20/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "University at Buffalo LISTSERV Server (14.5)" > > > > Date: December 19, 2006 9:34:21 PM CST > > To: mIEKAL aND > > Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > LISTSERV does not allow the distribution of empty messages to a > > mailing list, > > because some users are unable to see the "Subject:" field from > > the original > > message. > > > > From: mIEKAL aND > > Date: December 19, 2006 9:34:08 PM CST > > To: Theory and Writing , UB Poetics > > discussion group > > Subject: What does "logotomy" mean? > > > > > > > > > > > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:05:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Another elitism: to respond, "yes, the computer understands the language," means I don't understand the question. That reinforces most of the points I've made, foremost one's fear of losing his "privileged observer" status. Jim Andrews wrote: >>> This seems to me to misunderstand the problem entirely. Speed is not >>> the issue in the Chinese Room thought experiment. The question is >>> whether the mono-lingual speaker of English in the room, who doesn't >>> know any Chinese, but who is given the books and rules necessary to >>> correlate Chinese symbols with each other, who then produces >>> responses in Chinese characters to inputs in Chinese characters >>> without any other help that Chinese speakers accept as Chinese, can >>> be said to understand Chinese. >>> >> And this admirably clear paraphrase shows why Searle's thought >> experiment is misguided: it confuses the speaker within the room with >> the mind that understands Chinese. Presumably Searle would not require >> individual neurons involved in language processing, or even brain >> structures involved in language processing, to understand a language, >> yet this is precisely the role played by the mono-lingual speaker in the >> room. If the room is successfully responding to Chinese, then the *room >> as a whole*, not the speaker looking up symbols, must understand Chinese. >> > > Yes, this was also my impression of Searle's argument. > > I note that Martin Davis in "Engines of Logic" discusses Searle's argument > and says much the same as you, Wes. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:59:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Bowery Arts + Science MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Dear EPCeers,=20 Folllowing is the Direct Mail ask from Bowery Arts + Science, Ltd. You can=20 donate via _http://boweryartsandscience.org/sponsor_us.htm_=20 (http://boweryartsandscience.org/sponsor_us.htm) or by sending a check to B= owery Arts + Science,=20 310 Bowery, NY NY 10012. Should you want to be on the Bowery Poetry Club= =E2=80=99s=20 email list: _http://bowerypoetry.com/email_signup.htm_=20 (http://bowerypoetry.com/email_signup.htm) .=20 Bowery Arts + Science, Ltd sponsors many of the events at the Bowery Poetry= =20 Club which will never break even. To learn more, visit=20 _www.boweryartsandscience.org_ (http://www.boweryartsandscience.org/) , newl= y and handsomely=20 redesigned by Jerrold Shirma.=20 Happy Hollies =E2=80=93 if yr in town, we have a helluva New Years Eve part= y!=20 Bob Holman=20 Dear Friend,=20 It=E2=80=99s always been easy to find the Bowery Poetry Club =E2=80=93 =E2= =80=9Clocated across the=20 street from CBGBs.=E2=80=9D But with the closing of CB=E2=80=99s (can you b= elieve Hilly=E2=80=99s=20 moving to Vegas?!), what are our new coordinates? =E2=80=9CLocated across f= rom huge ugly=20 new apartment complex emblematic of gentrification and disneyfication of th= e=20 Lower East Side=E2=80=9D?=20 I think we=E2=80=99ll stick with =E2=80=9Cacross from CBGB.=E2=80=9D =20 Like the phantom buildings in Managua =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTurn left at the ho= spital=E2=80=9D but the =20 hospital hasn=E2=80=99t been there for forty years -- the palimpsest of the=20= explosion=20 of punk still rocks the Bowery, and in the Bowery Poetry Club you still can= =20 hear it. =20 We=E2=80=99re proud of our place in the lineage of populist art: the Yiddis= h=20 theater, burlesque and vaudeville and beat and punk that gave the Bowery it= s name=20 before it slid to skid row, before its current resurrection as hot new Down= town=20 high-rent zone.=20 By resisting the contemporary blanding of so much of Downtown, by staying =20 true to our roots while exploring new ways for poetry and its sister arts =20= to=20 find places in the daily lives of the citizenry, the Club is, as the NYTimes= =20 says, =E2=80=9Ca Beacon on the Bowery.=E2=80=9D=20 =E2=80=9CWill poets drink enough at the bar to support their poetry habit an= d get =20 the Club=E2=80=99s rent paid?=E2=80=9D was the originating question of the B= PC. After four=20 years of running in the red, I think the answer is, plainly, No. Why? Becau= se we=E2=80=99 re the only bar in the world that asks the customer to Please shut up and=20 listen to the poem, as opposed to Another round?.=20 Meanwhile, this year has been as active as ever =E2=80=93 we had Praise Day= s for=20 Robert Creeley, Pedro Pietri and Barbara Guest; a Symposum on the 50th=20 Anniversary of Ginsberg=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CHowl=E2=80=9D featuring John Gior= no, Edward Sanders; Patti Smith=20 sitting in on clarinet with Janet Hamill and Moving Star; the artist Jim D= ine=20 giving his first-ever poetry reading; our Study Abroad on the Bowery progra= m=20 went all the way to the CUNY Grad Center to present readings by Alcalay,=20 ABerrigan, Hernandez Cruz, Troupe, Sapphire, Patricia Smith, Vicuna, Notley= =E2=80=A6.=20 If you=E2=80=99re convinced =E2=80=93 Stop! Now! and send us a contribution= =E2=80=A6 If you want to=20 hear more, read on =E2=80=93 there is LOTS more, only some of which will be= in this=20 appeal=E2=80=A6=20 * With funding from Yahoo, we=E2=80=99ve been busing students in to h= ear our=20 Griot-in =E2=80=93Residence, Papa Susso, trace the roots of hiphop back acr= oss the=20 Middle Passage=20 * Poetry dinners! With Basque poets and food, and Aguinaldo! Puerto=20 Rican living poesia y comidas ( collaborations with the wonderful CityLore)= =E2=80=A6=20 * Our staff stepping up, performing and producing events, selling=20 books from the bar. And congratulations to bartender Moonshine, Mr Lower Ea= st=20 Side 2007!=20 * Book Parties for many many, including Linton Kwesi Johnson, Edward=20 Field, Patricia Spears Jones, Bea Gates and our own Bowery Books, the newe= st=20 being Women of the Bowery, 76 poets, 76 poems, 76 photos and bios. Our next= =20 book is Estamos Aqui, a bilingual book of poems by migrant workers.=20 * Monthly American Sign Language readings for deaf poets=E2=80=A6=20 * Edwin Torres=E2=80=99s ongoing experimental workshop to create a Po= ets=E2=80=99=20 Symphony=E2=80=A6=20 * And in early December, Bowery Arts and Science will have a Think/Do= =20 Tank to create five and ten year plans. Michael Warr, the founder of Chicag= o=E2=80=99 s Guild Complex and a brilliant non-profit strategist, will be leading the=20= =20 weekend=E2=80=99s activities. For these programs not only to succeed, but to thrive, we need your support.= =20 Bowery Arts and Science is hoping to raise $66,000 to support these evolvin= g=20 endeavors. That=E2=80=99s an average donation of $50 -- but, from everybod= y. =20 So here we are, =E2=80=9Ca Beacon on the Bowery=E2=80=9D (New York Times), a= home of an =E2=80=9C anarchic blend of spoken word, music and theater hijinx=E2=80=9D (Time Out=20= New York),=20 and =E2=80=9Ca word playground where traditions can coexist and be passed o= n=E2=80=9D (Village=20 Voice). We=E2=80=99re asking for your support so we can not only be true t= o these=20 words, but also broaden the opportunities for more to find their (poetic)=20 homes here. =20 The possibilities, it could be said=E2=80=94are up to you.=20 Poetically yours,=20 Bob Holman =20 Executive Director, Bowery Arts and Science=20 Proprietor, Bowery Poetry Club =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:18:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury Comments: To: Theory and Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (the fresh fruit howl sounds good..) Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury By Clifford Coonan in Beijing Published: 21 December 2006 http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2091871.ece "Complicated cake", "pee soup", "five sliced things", "dumpling stuffed with the ovary and digestive glands of a crab" and, hopefully, "crap in the grass" are being banished from Beijing's restaurants - as part of a plan to improve English spelling and standardise signs and menus for the 2008 Olympics. One of the many joys of eating out in China is the linguistic richness of the English menus - the misspelling of carp will always raise a giggle. But chefs still favour direct translations from Chinese, or rather prosaic descriptions of the food on offer, and there are wonderful examples of garbled English all around the capital. Among this correspondent's favourites is "fuck the certain price of goods" - far more striking than "sale now on," while "children is not recommended" has a certain elegance."Enter the mouth", a mistranslation of the Chinese characters for "entrance" is also common on signposts. The messages can range from the linguistically marvellous to the plain baffling. The spa in my apartment building promises a "babble bath", while in the Starbucks outlet at the airport you could buy a "fresh fruit howl" instead of a fruit bowl. Property advertisements are particularly prone, such as the skyscraper sold as "a wonder of national cream". There are good intentions behind trying to put road signs in English as well as Chinese, and generally the road signs are very accurate. However, some safety signs can be truly magnificent: "No blowing of horn. Keep silence!" or "notice the rockslide, please is run about by cliff". Eager to avoid red faces ahead of the Olympics, the Chinese government has set up a major drive to standardise the use of English in public, called the "Beijing speaks to the world committee," which scours the capital seeking out menus or road signs lost in mistranslation. It has finished translating more than 1,000 dishes and drinks so far. "We welcome public participation and suggestions," the committee told the Beijing Daily. Some 300 million people are learning English in China, and the standard has improved dramatically in recent years, which means fewer howlers like those listed above. But I will always recall landing in Kunming airport in Yunnan province in the 1990s to see a sign reading: "We welcome our foreign fiends." A mistake, surely. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 14:16:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed PennSound has recently put up an mp3 of the 2004 Philadelphia MLA offsite reading: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/MLA-Offsite.html We've broken the reading into two one-hour MP3s. Any additional info on what poems were read would be appreciated: so far, only sketchy info is provided. Note that many of the poets at the reading are not associated with the MLA; these off-site readings have always been a way for local poets to read together with those in from out-of-town. Charles Bernstein http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:33:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: <58FBF209-7594-40D0-9C60-0F398BDB0D99@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i love these. my fave is one i spotted in an out-of-the-way vietnamese restaurant in north minneapolis: baloney with mussels. they meant abalone. another fave is the ubiquitous "noddles." one place had an entire menu section entitled "fun with noddles." At 1:18 PM -0600 12/21/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >(the fresh fruit howl sounds good..) > >Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury > >By Clifford Coonan in Beijing > >Published: 21 December 2006 > >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2091871.ece > >"Complicated cake", "pee soup", "five sliced things", "dumpling >stuffed with the ovary and digestive glands of a crab" and, >hopefully, "crap in the grass" are being banished from Beijing's >restaurants - as part of a plan to improve English spelling and >standardise signs and menus for the 2008 Olympics. > >One of the many joys of eating out in China is the linguistic >richness of the English menus - the misspelling of carp will always >raise a giggle. > >But chefs still favour direct translations from Chinese, or rather >prosaic descriptions of the food on offer, and there are wonderful >examples of garbled English all around the capital. Among this >correspondent's favourites is "fuck the certain price of goods" - >far more striking than "sale now on," while "children is not >recommended" has a certain elegance."Enter the mouth", a >mistranslation of the Chinese characters for "entrance" is also >common on signposts. > >The messages can range from the linguistically marvellous to the >plain baffling. The spa in my apartment building promises a "babble >bath", while in the Starbucks outlet at the airport you could buy a >"fresh fruit howl" instead of a fruit bowl. Property advertisements >are particularly prone, such as the skyscraper sold as "a wonder of >national cream". > >There are good intentions behind trying to put road signs in English >as well as Chinese, and generally the road signs are very accurate. >However, some safety signs can be truly magnificent: "No blowing of >horn. Keep silence!" or "notice the rockslide, please is run about >by cliff". > >Eager to avoid red faces ahead of the Olympics, the Chinese >government has set up a major drive to standardise the use of >English in public, called the "Beijing speaks to the world >committee," which scours the capital seeking out menus or road signs >lost in mistranslation. It has finished translating more than 1,000 >dishes and drinks so far. "We welcome public participation and >suggestions," the committee told the Beijing Daily. > >Some 300 million people are learning English in China, and the >standard has improved dramatically in recent years, which means >fewer howlers like those listed above. But I will always recall >landing in Kunming airport in Yunnan province in the 1990s to see a >sign reading: "We welcome our foreign fiends." A mistake, surely. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:29:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe----I felt something similar last time I went to an MLA thing (in Philly, 2 years ago) and when it was my turn to read, instead I just started talking to and/or about the previous poets I met and knew and read before. I didn't get to mention everybody, and the "price" one pays for this sometimes is not being taken as "seriously" as a poet (being "too much" the "mere entertainer" as if poetry readings are 'above that' like the white catholic church of my youth, etc), but it felt like the right thing to do, and seemed worth it...a candle lit (disguised as a curse), etc.... anyway, just wanted to say I'm glad you're thinking about this. i find it playful rather than cranky, but then again alot of my thoughts about the basic status quo notion of poetry readings often fall on deaf ears and get called 'cranky' so feel free to ignore what i say... happy darkest day of the year to those in the northern hemisphere Chris On Dec 20, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Joe Amato wrote: > Here's a thought, and I really do hope nobody takes this as raining > on anybody's parade, esp. in light of the effort it takes to pull > this kind of thing together: > > Why can't 60+ poets get together just to jaw, as opposed to reading > to one another? I'm puzzled by this, and have been for years now. > I show up every year, I listen, I try to eek out a few words under > my breath to someone I haven't seen in months or years, someone > who's doing likewise. Often we talk -- whisper, gesture -- about > how nice it would be just to shoot the shit, and often we pretend > to pay attention, esp. as the evening wears on. > > Now that's just me. I like to gab. I don't like readings with 60+ > people. Aldon -- someone with whom I would like to shoot the shit > at said reading -- thinks it's fun. I don't think it's fun -- I > think it's something of a drag, in fact, b/c there are so many > people that I won't otherwise have a chance to talk to, given the > dynamics of MLA. So I always leave said reading feeling like it's > a missed opportunity. It's certainly not the note I'd like to see > my MLA experience conclude on. I'd much rather be, well, gabbing. > > Again, not to rain on anyone's parade. I don't wish to come off as > even a little bit cranky. I'm just suggesting something that I've > suggested to any number of individuals (i.e., participating poets) > for years now, generally (generally) to nods of agreement. And yet > here we all are, talking about that MLA group reading again. > > Best, > > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:20:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20061221133306.0452cc70@english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Will the same be done for the 2006 reading? Dan On 12/21/06, Charles Bernstein wrote: > PennSound has recently put up an mp3 of the 2004 Philadelphia MLA > offsite reading: > http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/MLA-Offsite.html > We've broken the reading into two one-hour MP3s. Any additional info > on what poems were read would be appreciated: so far, only sketchy > info is provided. > > Note that many of the poets at the reading are not associated with > the MLA; these off-site readings have always been a way for local > poets to read together with those in from out-of-town. > > Charles Bernstein > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/ > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:40:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: <4360153A-A29A-4F17-B7CF-EC05E9FA3A31@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" chris: your slot at that reading was one of my favorites of the evening. At 11:29 AM -0800 12/21/06, Chris Stroffolino wrote: >Hi Joe----I felt something similar last time I went to an MLA thing >(in Philly, 2 years ago) and when it was my turn to read, instead I >just started talking to and/or about the previous poets I met and >knew and read before. I didn't get to mention everybody, and the >"price" one pays for this sometimes is not being taken as >"seriously" as a poet (being "too much" the "mere entertainer" as if >poetry readings are 'above that' like the white catholic church of >my youth, etc), but it felt like the right thing to do, and seemed >worth it...a candle lit (disguised as a curse), etc.... > >anyway, just wanted to say I'm glad you're thinking about this. i >find it playful rather than cranky, but then again alot of my >thoughts about the basic status quo notion of poetry readings often >fall on deaf ears and get called 'cranky' so feel free to ignore >what i say... > >happy darkest day of the year to those in the northern hemisphere > >Chris >On Dec 20, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Joe Amato wrote: > >>Here's a thought, and I really do hope nobody takes this as raining >>on anybody's parade, esp. in light of the effort it takes to pull >>this kind of thing together: >> >>Why can't 60+ poets get together just to jaw, as opposed to reading >>to one another? I'm puzzled by this, and have been for years now. >>I show up every year, I listen, I try to eek out a few words under >>my breath to someone I haven't seen in months or years, someone >>who's doing likewise. Often we talk -- whisper, gesture -- about >>how nice it would be just to shoot the shit, and often we pretend >>to pay attention, esp. as the evening wears on. >> >>Now that's just me. I like to gab. I don't like readings with 60+ >>people. Aldon -- someone with whom I would like to shoot the shit >>at said reading -- thinks it's fun. I don't think it's fun -- I >>think it's something of a drag, in fact, b/c there are so many >>people that I won't otherwise have a chance to talk to, given the >>dynamics of MLA. So I always leave said reading feeling like it's >>a missed opportunity. It's certainly not the note I'd like to see >>my MLA experience conclude on. I'd much rather be, well, gabbing. >> >>Again, not to rain on anyone's parade. I don't wish to come off as >>even a little bit cranky. I'm just suggesting something that I've >>suggested to any number of individuals (i.e., participating poets) >>for years now, generally (generally) to nods of agreement. And yet >>here we all are, talking about that MLA group reading again. >> >>Best, >> >>Joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:49:54 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Bukowski CD--fyi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have not seen anyone mention this-- ―for immediate release— http://www.thetemplebookstore.com/bukcd.html A new CD of a vintage reading (1974) by world famous twentieth century American poet Charles Bukowski (1922-1993) is one you’ll have to stuff in your CD player as soon as you get it. In 1974, the intrepid Bukowski journeyed from Los Angeles to Salt Lake City to give a featured reading at the Underwater Poetry Festival, along with Alta, Ricardo Sanchez, and Andy Clausen. The recording of the reading given in the social work auditorium of the University of Utah survived in the archives of the Reverend Sherm W. Clow, President at the time of the renowned Litmus Inc., producer of the festival, and is made available to the general public by The Temple Inc. of Walla Walla , Washington . Litmus Inc. was the publisher back in the day of the classic Bukowski book, Poems Written Before Jumping out of an 8 Story Window. More than twenty poems with a table of contents, some introductory and closing patter by MC Charles Potts, and a reproduction of the poster from the UPF are the menu on the CD. Bukowski was just beginning to achieve the lasting fame that would come to him in the next two decades. Hear the man at his droll and noteworthy best. The CD is available from The Temple Inc., CD baby, and if you’re lucky or live where hip book and music stores abound, from your local dealer. Don’t be satisfied with a single copy when you can buy two or more and give them to worthy friends. Friends don’t let friends drive with Bukowski. http://www.thetemplebookstore.com/bukcd.html Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:54:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: MLA off-site poetry reading - updated list of readers In-Reply-To: <4360153A-A29A-4F17-B7CF-EC05E9FA3A31@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Chris, Aaron, Charles, Maria, others -- thanks for your thoughts... At the expense of appearing something like a Menshevik about this, I still hold that getting together needs no justification. Sure, it's nice to hear someone read. But hearing 60+ people read? And what IS the proper etiquette here, anyway? You listen to the ten readers before you and the ten after you, then you're free to leave? Or are you stuck for the duration, etiquette wise? This assumes, of course, that you really don't WANT to hear 60+ poets read... not least b/c your feet might get sore (the last reading at Philly, I stood through 90 minutes of the event). Maria, I take your point. But as I'm not an x-stitcher, a knitter, or a breast-feeder, this leaves me with only a few options. Perhaps I need more hobbies? I could solve crossword puzzles, but I'm not into crossword puzzles. I could read, but that might be rude. I could ponder my prior three days at MLA -- doubtless part of what I'll be doing, if I attend, much as I'll be managing half-hushed exchanges. I could try poet-spotting (that takes you only so far into the evening). If I were a reader at such an event, I could try to think about what I'll be reading, then try to think about what I've read. I'm not real happy, for that matter, with readers who can't seem to comprehend what a time allotment is, esp. in the midst of a group reading. But we've aired that one out here before. I get esp. annoyed at "Do I have time to read another poem?" I answered that question here on the ISU campus a couple of weeks ago, overseeing a student reading. And I think you all know what my answer was. Anyway. I guess I've said what I have to say about this. It reminds me of my bar days. When we used to go to a bar with live entertainment, we generally had a choice: either listen up-close to the live entertainment, or retreat to a spot in the bar where conversation was possible. More difficult when the background "music" is poetry, maybe, and you'd need a space to accommodate such a division of, uhm, labor. But that's all I can offer by way of a remedy to a problem that only a few, evidently, feel is a problem. And hey -- If I do end up at the reading this year, please be sure to say hi. I promise to try to have a good time... Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:57:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Binghamton there is a Spanish restaurant offering "Chili con Crane." Happy Solstice, Paul Nelson i love these. my fave is one i spotted in an out-of-the-way vietnamese restaurant in north minneapolis: baloney with mussels. they meant abalone. another fave is the ubiquitous "noddles." one place had an entire menu section entitled "fun with noddles." At 1:18 PM -0600 12/21/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >(the fresh fruit howl sounds good..) > >Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury > >By Clifford Coonan in Beijing > >Published: 21 December 2006 > >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2091871.ece > >"Complicated cake", "pee soup", "five sliced things", "dumpling >stuffed with the ovary and digestive glands of a crab" and, >hopefully, "crap in the grass" are being banished from Beijing's >restaurants - as part of a plan to improve English spelling and >standardise signs and menus for the 2008 Olympics. > >One of the many joys of eating out in China is the linguistic >richness of the English menus - the misspelling of carp will always >raise a giggle. > >But chefs still favour direct translations from Chinese, or rather >prosaic descriptions of the food on offer, and there are wonderful >examples of garbled English all around the capital. Among this >correspondent's favourites is "fuck the certain price of goods" - >far more striking than "sale now on," while "children is not >recommended" has a certain elegance."Enter the mouth", a >mistranslation of the Chinese characters for "entrance" is also >common on signposts. > >The messages can range from the linguistically marvellous to the >plain baffling. The spa in my apartment building promises a "babble >bath", while in the Starbucks outlet at the airport you could buy a >"fresh fruit howl" instead of a fruit bowl. Property advertisements >are particularly prone, such as the skyscraper sold as "a wonder of >national cream". > >There are good intentions behind trying to put road signs in English >as well as Chinese, and generally the road signs are very accurate. >However, some safety signs can be truly magnificent: "No blowing of >horn. Keep silence!" or "notice the rockslide, please is run about >by cliff". > >Eager to avoid red faces ahead of the Olympics, the Chinese >government has set up a major drive to standardise the use of >English in public, called the "Beijing speaks to the world >committee," which scours the capital seeking out menus or road signs >lost in mistranslation. It has finished translating more than 1,000 >dishes and drinks so far. "We welcome public participation and >suggestions," the committee told the Beijing Daily. > >Some 300 million people are learning English in China, and the >standard has improved dramatically in recent years, which means >fewer howlers like those listed above. But I will always recall >landing in Kunming airport in Yunnan province in the 1990s to see a >sign reading: "We welcome our foreign fiends." A mistake, surely. -- Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio http://www.globalvoicesradio.org www.splab.org 888.735.MEAT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:21:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458AA8A0.5010708@iwu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > If the room is successfully responding > to Chinese, then the *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking up symbols, > must understand Chinese. Which is one response that defenders of Strong AI often give to the Chinese Room argument. It's common enough that it's known as the "Systems Reply," that is, the subject is the whole system, not the man in the room, and the system is able understand Chinese. It's a point with some force. My problem with it is that I don't think it's sensible to say a system understands anything. Searle's response is to say eliminate the room, have the guy in the room internalize all of the symbols and the rules for the script, memorize it all, and he still doesn't know what the symbols mean. I think the point of the entire thought experiment, however, doesn't really get at the idea of artificial intelligence, so much as it shows how artificial intelligence conceived of as a form of Turing machine and validated through a Turing test isn't the same thing as what we think of as animal intelligence. Personally, i don't think machine intelligence will ever be equivalent to animal intelligence. Machine's are not alive, and intelligence is a by product of an animals form of life. If we could make Machine's do something that looked an awful lot like what we call thinking when we do it, I don't think that we could rightly say the machines were thinking. What they were doing would be something altogether new and different. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 14:30:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A new edition of rhubarb is susan is up and online, with reviews of Eugene Ostashevsky's stunning "infinite recursor or the bride of dj spinoza", and Paige Ackerson-Kiely's award winning book just out from Ahsahta. Check both reviews out at rhubarb: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/12/paige-ackerson-kiely-moment-as-roscoe.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/12/eugene-ostashevsky-infinite-recursor.html Also, check out two non-review postings from earlier in the week, some scattered notes and a brief article "life in the slush-pile": http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/12/scattered-notes.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2006/12/life-in-slush-pile.html FINALLY -- please keep in mind that absent magazine (http://absentmag.org) is out with issue one and is currently soliciting submissions for issue two. Please check http://absentmag.org/guidelines.html for important information on how to send us work. Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, Chanukah, Eid ul-Adha and so forth, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:49:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458A031B.90608@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Jesse, I see that Marcus has already addressed what appears to be your confusion about the target of the thought experiment, and i'll leave it at that as I don't have much more to say about the subject, really, since I don't agree that Strong AI is ruled out by the chinese room, just that thought is not equivalent to calculation, and therefore can't be done by digital computers. That's the part that's difficult for defenders of strong AI and the only objections I've seen to it are arguments from implication, that is, arguments from people who want to show that there are implications to accepting that thought isn't computation that people who want to accept the Chinese Room argument might not want to accept along with it. Personally, i don't have much of a problem biting the bullet of dualism if it's truly necessary, so that doesn't bother me at all. What I did want to address, though, were your comments about strong AI. Strong AI is called strong AI in order to contrast it with weak AI. It's terminology that's used all over in the debates about artificial intelligence and the terms are used sensibly in that Strong AI is called strong AI because it makes a stronger claim, ie that machines can be programmed to think and be self-aware and have intentions, than the claim made by weak Ai, which is that machines can be programmed to solve problems and reason within a domain. Deep Blue is an example of Weak AI, because it's capable of sophisticated problem solving strategies, but it isn't aware of itself and is not conscious of what or why it's doing things. weak AI can be accomplished using algorithms, and the thrust of the Chinese Room is that strong AI cannot. I just want to make the point that your comment about claiming dominion by calling it strong ai is missing the mark. what's in question isn't the strength of the machine, but the strength of the claim about what a machine might be capable of. human beings don't have artificial intelligence, strong or weak. they have animal intelligence. To my way of thinking, the very idea of artificial intelligence is merely propagated by taking the synechdoche of the turing machine over literally. Because human minds can do what turing machines do, it doesn't follow that human minds are only capable of what turing machines are, nor that they do the things in the same way, nor that that output is what matters and is more important than the process by which that output is reached, which are all claims made by Strong AI. On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jesse Crockett wrote: > Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room thought experiment, and > let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! Searle must think very highly of > hisself, if he thinks he could process Chinese faster than Deep Blue, > which, I add, Kasparov claimed played a move "too human" to be computed, > and that was a decade ago. The greatest chess mind ever, famed for his > infinitely subtle play! How is the Chinese Room thought experiment > "difficult" at all, when considering for advancement in computational > speeds? The human mind processes "language symbols" at, we can > practically state, at near light speed. When machines can do this, they > will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought experiment is quite silly, > in my opinion. On the other side, you have the notion of STRONG > artificial intelligence. Why do we say "strong," when we could say > practical or even, to be simple, good? Because a statement of > "strength" is a roundabout way of claiming absolute dominion by a > particular sphere of privilege and influence. Very intelligent human > beings are often pitiably weak. Would you say their minds are strong, > because they can recite some Chaucer over a bottle of cheap scotch, or > go into greater detail of the Chinese Room thought experiment---? > Idano, I'm just saying... > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:59:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: XanaxPop, by Lewis LaCook : Eleanor Rigby (...jiggy with it at last!) Comments: To: rhizome , webartery , netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...with blur for a head. Torrents churn beneath the architecture, which has become a neutral word for me, and denotes all this scaffolding crashing down around my bare ankles. One pill wakes my ass up and sets me to thinking. Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I II III IV. I'm trying to accept everyone for who they are, and not for what I feel they could be if they weren't so damned stupid. Poems are no different than eating, sleeping, discarding of waste by-products (shit, piss, but not semen, semen isn't waste). I save them in a jar behind the door, Eleanor Rigby! I've never understood their precocity. But for the most part I feel that my life has passed beneath streetlamps, somewhere in the menagerie mash-up of Lorain's drunk streets, mistaken by passersby for a girl because my hair is long, because I stumble blurting poetry or I stumble bleeding pictures. I think the males' heads fill up with nitrous oxide at age 13, and don't deflate until they're 30. No doubt, this can be deconstructed. Flies on a rail. The flood of flower rouge, of funky latitudes engaging jasmine sacrilige, jiggy with it at last! The work of the Damned... *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| New Media Poetry and Poetics ||http://www.abstractoutlooks.com || Abstract Outlooks Media - A New Vision for A New Web Hosting, Design, Development ||http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org|| Xanax Pop - A Bloge of Poemes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:21:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: event photos Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dec. 15th, 7 p.m. at the Wordpainting & Paper Kite Press Studio was Poetry Prom Night. Participants were encouraged to being the absolute worst of their high school poems. Bad high school poems were read, punch was swilled, dress was creative formal, portraits were taken, and the music was the stuff you WANTED at your prom but didn't get. A good time was had by all. Pretend you attended, 29 photos at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30017678@N00/sets/72157594431545413/ Enjoy, Dan PS: yes, I'm the guy in the bowtie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:39:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is all really interesting to me, and has been for quite a while... I think the approach I prefer most is the sort of thing one finds in Lyotard's The Inhuman. In a lot of ways the core question is how we're to evaluate behavior. If something behaves as if it's thinking, do we attribute thought to it? Moreover, if something behaves as if it thinks it's thinking, do we attribute thought to it? Or, can we imagine conditions such that we would so attribute? And then of course we have this question of feelings. If something behaves as if it's grieving, do we treat it as if it's grieving? This may seem a stretch, but (after Lyotard) this kind of inquiry has a certain heuristic value, at the very least, leading us to consider what emotions we find valuable, and why. And if we're not all underwater in 1000 years, I've little doubt that the behavior of machines (artificial life etc.) will be such that machine behavior will continue to blur the distinctions at stake between human and machine, animate and inanimate, etc. It might be unsettling to think so, but I'm not sure how this is to be avoided. Best, Joe >Jesse, > >I see that Marcus has already addressed what appears to be your >confusion about the target of the thought experiment, and i'll leave >it at that as I don't have much more to say about the subject, >really, since I don't agree that Strong AI is ruled out by the >chinese room, just that thought is not equivalent to calculation, >and therefore can't be done by digital computers. That's the part >that's difficult for defenders of strong AI and the only objections >I've seen to it are arguments from implication, that is, arguments >from people who want to show that there are implications to >accepting that thought isn't computation that people who want to >accept the Chinese Room argument might not want to accept along with >it. Personally, i don't have much of a problem biting the bullet of >dualism if it's truly necessary, so that doesn't bother me at all. > > >What I did want to address, though, were your comments about strong >AI. Strong AI is called strong AI in order to contrast it with weak >AI. It's terminology that's used all over in the debates about >artificial intelligence and the terms are used sensibly in that >Strong AI is called strong AI because it makes a stronger claim, ie >that machines can be programmed to think and be self-aware and have >intentions, than the claim made by weak Ai, which is that machines >can be programmed to solve problems and reason within a domain. Deep >Blue is an example of Weak AI, because it's capable of sophisticated >problem solving strategies, but it isn't aware of itself and is not >conscious of what or why it's doing things. weak AI can be >accomplished using algorithms, and the thrust of the Chinese Room is >that strong AI cannot. I just want to make the point that your >comment about claiming dominion by calling it strong ai is missing >the mark. what's in question isn't the strength of the machine, but >the strength of the claim about what a machine might be capable of. >human beings don't have artificial intelligence, strong or weak. >they have animal intelligence. To my way of thinking, the very idea >of artificial intelligence is merely propagated by taking the >synechdoche of the turing machine over literally. Because human >minds can do what turing machines do, it doesn't follow that human >minds are only capable of what turing machines are, nor that they do >the things in the same way, nor that that output is what matters and >is more important than the process by which that output is reached, >which are all claims made by Strong AI. > > > >On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jesse Crockett wrote: > >>Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room thought experiment, and >>let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! Searle must think very highly of >>hisself, if he thinks he could process Chinese faster than Deep Blue, >>which, I add, Kasparov claimed played a move "too human" to be computed, >>and that was a decade ago. The greatest chess mind ever, famed for his >>infinitely subtle play! How is the Chinese Room thought experiment >>"difficult" at all, when considering for advancement in computational >>speeds? The human mind processes "language symbols" at, we can >>practically state, at near light speed. When machines can do this, they >>will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought experiment is quite silly, >>in my opinion. On the other side, you have the notion of STRONG >>artificial intelligence. Why do we say "strong," when we could say >>practical or even, to be simple, good? Because a statement of >>"strength" is a roundabout way of claiming absolute dominion by a >>particular sphere of privilege and influence. Very intelligent human >>beings are often pitiably weak. Would you say their minds are strong, >>because they can recite some Chaucer over a bottle of cheap scotch, or >>go into greater detail of the Chinese Room thought experiment---? >>Idano, I'm just saying... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:45:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I know the contrast between animal intelligence and artificial intelligence. I don't mistake "artificial" for "surrogate," I'm just very interested by "thinking machines" & their potential more than having their boundaries delimited before they're conceived. The Chinese Room experiment I did take a bit out of context to state that the problem of "understanding" is related to various "systems" within animal intelligence, class-consciousness foremost, to my mind. And there was an active part to confuse my main points there, all of which have been neatly avoided. The notion I offer is that it's possibly beyond our comprehension the future of artificial intelligence, & by comparing it to "the earth is flat" in context of social stratification I attempted to formulate "unique" vantage. In short, I take the side of magical thinking, and I really see it strange to using subjective notions of human understanding to scale the machine's intelligence to our own. It is ego-centric. If I was confused, it was on the aspect of the person being inside the computer, or room, and there being a separate computer doing the same thing. To me, if the computer can relay cogent language and "communicate" practically with a human speaker, and that if a person "in the next computer" does as well as the computer itself, I will say yes, the computer "understands" the language in all practicality, yet it's not the right word, and ALSO the person who is ( you'll admit, magically ) using all manner of instruction to parallel the computer's ability, then yes, I say that person passes for understanding of the language, when you take the instructions as metaphor for the animal process by which the speaker speaks, which I do, & which we should. That, to me, is a major point being foregone by the arguments here. On the one hand is the "privileged observer" who's authorized to state yay or nay at the person's understanding of the language, & on the other hand you have the notion of a person using a "mere set of instructions" to employ decent conversation with another human being. I have to emphasize moreover that it's a magical, superhuman notion, yet the privileged observer is "just a cold fact" who to my observation is granted excessive credence throughout these arguments. I'll take the magical thinking. Jason Quackenbush wrote: > Jesse, > > I see that Marcus has already addressed what appears to be your > confusion about the target of the thought experiment, and i'll leave > it at that as I don't have much more to say about the subject, really, > since I don't agree that Strong AI is ruled out by the chinese room, > just that thought is not equivalent to calculation, and therefore > can't be done by digital computers. That's the part that's difficult > for defenders of strong AI and the only objections I've seen to it are > arguments from implication, that is, arguments from people who want to > show that there are implications to accepting that thought isn't > computation that people who want to accept the Chinese Room argument > might not want to accept along with it. Personally, i don't have much > of a problem biting the bullet of dualism if it's truly necessary, so > that doesn't bother me at all. > > > What I did want to address, though, were your comments about strong > AI. Strong AI is called strong AI in order to contrast it with weak > AI. It's terminology that's used all over in the debates about > artificial intelligence and the terms are used sensibly in that Strong > AI is called strong AI because it makes a stronger claim, ie that > machines can be programmed to think and be self-aware and have > intentions, than the claim made by weak Ai, which is that machines can > be programmed to solve problems and reason within a domain. Deep Blue > is an example of Weak AI, because it's capable of sophisticated > problem solving strategies, but it isn't aware of itself and is not > conscious of what or why it's doing things. weak AI can be > accomplished using algorithms, and the thrust of the Chinese Room is > that strong AI cannot. I just want to make the point that your comment > about claiming dominion by calling it strong ai is missing the mark. > what's in question isn't the strength of the machine, but the strength > of the claim about what a machine might be capable of. human beings > don't have artificial intelligence, strong or weak. they have animal > intelligence. To my way of thinking, the very idea of artificial > intelligence is merely propagated by taking the synechdoche of the > turing machine over literally. Because human minds can do what turing > machines do, it doesn't follow that human minds are only capable of > what turing machines are, nor that they do the things in the same way, > nor that that output is what matters and is more important than the > process by which that output is reached, which are all claims made by > Strong AI. > > > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006, Jesse Crockett wrote: > >> Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room thought experiment, and >> let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! Searle must think very highly of >> hisself, if he thinks he could process Chinese faster than Deep Blue, >> which, I add, Kasparov claimed played a move "too human" to be computed, >> and that was a decade ago. The greatest chess mind ever, famed for his >> infinitely subtle play! How is the Chinese Room thought experiment >> "difficult" at all, when considering for advancement in computational >> speeds? The human mind processes "language symbols" at, we can >> practically state, at near light speed. When machines can do this, they >> will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought experiment is quite silly, >> in my opinion. On the other side, you have the notion of STRONG >> artificial intelligence. Why do we say "strong," when we could say >> practical or even, to be simple, good? Because a statement of >> "strength" is a roundabout way of claiming absolute dominion by a >> particular sphere of privilege and influence. Very intelligent human >> beings are often pitiably weak. Would you say their minds are strong, >> because they can recite some Chaucer over a bottle of cheap scotch, or >> go into greater detail of the Chinese Room thought experiment---? >> Idano, I'm just saying... >> > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:54:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Mary Spahr Subject: going mlas? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline if so=2C please note the following not so last minute but still not in t= he program schedule addition when planning your way through all the poet= ry festivities=2E=2E=2E the panel Orality and Sound in Poetry 7=3A15+8=3A30 p=2Em=2E on 28-DEC-06 in 411-412=2C Philadelphia Marriott Arranged by the Division on Poetry will feature not only=2C as announced in the program=2C 1=2E =93/A=92khosa=3Atens/=97The That Aside=3A An Aside on Mohawk Langua= ge=2C=94 James Thomas Stevens=2C State Univ=2E of New York=2C Fredonia and 2=2E =93The Sound in Silence=2C the Silence in Sound=2C=94 M=2E NourbeSe= Philip=2C Toronto=2C ON but also=2E=2E=2E 3=2E =22Byt Torrents=2C=22 Jena Osman=2C Temple Univ=2E /Presiding=3A / Cristanne Miller=2C Pomona Coll=2E=3B Juliana M=2E Spahr= =2C Mills Coll=2E hope to see you around=2E please forward to interested parties=2E =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Michael McClure and Michael Rothenberg read Friday, Januar y 12, 2007 - 7 p.m.Copperfield's Books, 2316 Montgomer y Dr., Santa Rosa (posted on behalf of Michael Rothen berg) Comments: cc: walterblue@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The WordTemple Poetry Series will celebrate the beginning of its second year on Friday, January 12, 2007 by featuring Michael McClure and Michael Rothenberg. Refreshments will be provided as part of the celebration so come early, and please spread the word! Michael McClure and Michael Rothenberg Friday, January 12, 2007 - 7 p.m. Copperfield's Books, 2316 Montgomery Dr., Santa Rosa Michael McClure is famous for his dynamic poetry performances. Author of Rain Mirror, Touching the Edge: Dharma Devotions from the Hummingbird Sangha, and Huge Dreams, McClure has given hundreds of readings from the legendary Six Gallery in San Francisco (with Allen Ginsberg) to the Library of Congress. Recently, McClure joined with composer Terry Riley to create a CD titled I Like Your Eyes Liberty, a stunning exploration of music and voice. A musician and playwright, as well as a poet -- McClure's songs include "Mercedes Benz" popularized by Janis Joplin. Michael Rothenberg's books include The Paris Journals, Monk Daddy and Unhurried Vision. He is editor and publisher of Big Bridge ( www.bigbridge.org), the editor of Overtime, Selected Poems by Philip Whalen, As Ever, Selected Poems by Joanne Kyger, and David's Copy, Selected Poems by David Meltzer. Rothenberg's readings are stunning for their wide range of experience and emotion. David Meltzer calls Unhurried Vision a "deeply stirred & stirring affirmation of poetry's centrality in realizing mundane & profound instances in the everyday extraordinary." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:34:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Professor Wes Chapman Subject: Re: Strong AI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jason Quackenbush wrote: >> If the room is successfully responding to Chinese, then the >> *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking up symbols, must >> understand Chinese. > > > > Which is one response that defenders of Strong AI often give to the >Chinese Room argument. It's common enough that it's known as the >"Systems Reply," that is, the subject is the whole system, not the man in >the room, and the system is able understand Chinese. It's a point with >some force. My problem with it is that I don't think it's sensible to say a >system understands anything. I'm agnostic on this point--a lot depends on what we take the terms to mean. In general, I am inclined to take the Systems Reply (and yes, that's precisely the argument I was making) as a demonstration that Searle's thought experiment is confused and therefore meaningless, NOT as a demonstration that systems can think. But one can certainly understand the human brain, and all of the many extra-brain processes involved with cognition and emotion, as a "system." So we need more precise questions. Will machines be able to think, i.e. to be conscious and to understand? Since I am a monist and more or less a materialist, I believe so, though of course we won't know for sure until it happens. And we may not know then, given the unshareable nature of consciousness. Will machine thinking, when it happens, be digital? I don't know. It isn't digital in animals (including humans), that's clear enough. So I kind of doubt it. Digital machine thinking would be truly alien. But it would be presumptuous to think that the way animals (including humans) do things is the only way they can be done. Wes Chapman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:54:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > And if we're not all underwater in 1000 years, I've little doubt that > the behavior of machines (artificial life etc.) will be such that > machine behavior will continue to blur the distinctions at stake > between human and machine, animate and inanimate, etc. At the expense of not putting an artificial cyber-head (AI) on this, your furturist estimation here, Joe, reminds me of a certain taxi rides (packed to the gills) across parts of East and West Nigeria, where the driver (an agent of the Iron God) would take careful aim - if I remember correctly - at dogs and chickens, but put the brakes on at the sight of a duck or anyone nod conducive to iron. The former were creatures of sacrifice worthy of the Iron God (whose Yoruba name I forget this evening). In any case the driver had no doubt that he should aim his iron machine at the appropriate animal (risking our poor lives). Tears for the duck, and cheers for the others. In your terms, Joe, there was absolutely no blurring between machine, spirit and material object. Which is say, or ask, is the ultimate reality of AI re-introduced animism and sympathetic magic. Indeed a refreshing boon to acts of the imagination? &, for the gods know, whatever impact on our experience of marathon poetry readings (MLA or not) - each and every word conjoined to the stars (real stars). Just a thought on a real long, dark, cloudy, starless San Francisco night! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:01:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Poetics and Cultural Studies: Engaging the Debate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Don't miss at this year's MLA in Philadelphia: "Poetics and Cultural Studies: Engaging the Debate" Organized by Barrett Watten (with Rachel Blau DuPlessis) Friday, 29 December, 7:15-8:30 PM, Regency Ballroom A, Loews Ruth Jennison, U Massachusetts, Amherst, "The Political Economy of Parataxis: Mediation and Uneven Development in Zukofsky's 'A'" Eric Keenaghan, SUNY Albany, "The Conflict of the Poetic Faculties: On Social Pedagogy and Undated Grammars of Self" Jeffrey Nealon, Penn State U, "The Ends of Autonomy: Jameson, Poetics, and Cultural Studies Revisited" Tyrone Williams, Xavier University, "'Apparently I Am Picking Fights': Cultural Studies and Poetics Mix It Up in Taylor Brady's *Yesterday's News*" *****AND***** "Processing Pound" Arranged by the Ezra Pound Society; Bob Perelman, presiding Thursday, 28 December, 1:45-3:00 PM, Rooms 402-403, Philadelphia Marriott Benjamin Friedlander, U Maine, "The Voice of Unreason: Pound on the Radio" Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Temple U, "Pound, Politics, the Long Poem, and *Drafts*" Jennifer Scappetone, U Chicago, "Piu mOndo i: tUtti!: Traffics of Historicism in *Words nd Ends from Ez*" Barrett Watten, Wayne State U, "The F Scale" ***** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:25:27 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: aloha from Tinfish Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tinfish Annual Report In the past year, Tinfish Press has continued to publish excellent experimental poetry from the Pacific region, with emphasis on writing and cutting edge design work by artists from Hawai`i and elsewhere. In 2006 we’ve published: Jozuf Hadley, aka bradajo, TWO POEMS BAI BRADAJO, poems in Hawaiian Creole English (Pidgin), with accompanying cd. $14 Jacinta Galea`i, ACHING FOR MANGO FRIENDS, a chapbook in English and Samoan. TINFISH 16, in collaboration with TROUT 13. Another collection of poetry by various authors who are not usually to be found inside the same covers. $8 In the near future, we will be publishing: Leonard Schwartz, LANGUAGE AS RESPONSIBILITY, on the Palestine/Israel conflict and a poetics of publishing across boundaries. Sarith Peou, COUNTING CORPSES, poems about life in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pam Brown & Maged Zaher, poems in collaboration. Kaia Sand on secret Oregon histories. Hazel Smith’s full-length book EROTICS OF GEOGRAPHY, with accompanying CD-ROM. TINFISH 17 THE BEST OF TINFISH COLORING BOOK (with accompanying exhibition). 17 artists will create works based on 17 poems from Tinfish’s 11 year history; the results will be published as an interactive coloring book. And, if that’s not enough, we’re hoping to start a reading series that will pair writers in Hawai`i with writers from elsewhere, to continue our project of building bridges between local, national, and international writing. All of this takes resources. We give our time to the project, but need money to make our ideas into books. To help us out, please donate some tax deductible (we are non-profit in more ways than one!) monies to us at Tinfish Press, 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9, Kane`ohe, HI 96744, or through the “purchase” function at http://tinfishpress.com Better yet, buy some Tinfish Press books! Best wishes for a happy and productive New Year. May there be some peace for us all. Susan M. Schultz, Editor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:35:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: voicing minority poetries + one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friday, 29 December *362. Voicing Minority Poetries* /8:30–9:45 a.m., Grand Ballroom Salon J, Philadelphia Marriott/ A special session /Presiding: / Susan Martha Schultz, Univ. of Hawai‘i, Ma-noa 1. “Voicing against the Grain of Orality: Cecil Taylor Sounding the Poetics of Black Voice,” Aldon Lynn Nielsen, Penn State Univ., University Park 2. “Recording the Grain of the Filipino Voice,” Theodore Gonzalves, Univ. of Hawai‘i, Ma-noa 3. “Performing a Secular Judaism: David Antin, Jerome Rothenberg, Charles Bernstein, and Rachel Blau DuPlessis,” Hank Lazer, Univ. of Alabama, Tuscaloosa And there will also be a paper by Walter Lew on cinepoetry. Please join us. sms ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:09:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If the room is successfully responding > > to Chinese, then the *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking > up symbols, > > must understand Chinese. > > Which is one response that defenders of Strong AI often give to > the Chinese Room argument. It's common enough that it's known as > the "Systems Reply," that is, the subject is the whole system, > not the man in the room, and the system is able understand > Chinese. It's a point with some force. My problem with it is that > I don't think it's sensible to say a system understands anything. Not sensible to say a system ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/system ) understands anything? I disagree. Our own understanding of things is not done by a little man inside our head living alone on the couch. Our own understanding and consciousness is a vast network of inter-related 'parts of ourself' or 'subsystems'. We are each of us a virtual cosmos of inter-related parts, no one of which is the essential 'us'. Our minds are themselves systems of vast proportions. We contain cosmos. Every little thing we do is magic, draws on depths we do not understand but can nonetheless acknowledge. Even the simple act of remembering something is mysterious and draws on numerous parts of ourselves we barely comprehend. This thread began with discussion of the cutup. The cutup is often thought to fragment what was whole. Sometimes when working with cutups we feel that the wholeness was a carefully manicured impression of the aggregate that had more variety and individuals lurking in it than we had known. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 01:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Dreamwork/Codework rough notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Dreamwork/Codework rough notes Erst in dem Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. (RMR) in the double realm of work / dream ~ work / dream / real - then to confront work / code ~ work / code / ecriture - scaffolding slides against scaffolding ~ raster against raster the symbolic matrix / dream ~ protocol / code what is the work of the dream ? making sense of the (wor)l what is the work of the code ? problematizing sense of the wor(l)d double work of the dream: the dream is _worked_ - energy expended in its production, energy expended in the production of the mise en scene; and the dream _works_ - transforms anomaly into homeostatis. in _dreamwork,_ the dream sutures and stitches the wounded. double work of code: the code is _worked_ - energy expended in its produc- tion, energy expended in the production of its graphemic output; and the code _works_ - transforms output into semantics. in _codework,_ code both sutures and ruptures, stitches and wounds. the _codework of the dreamwork_ - dream decoding and production (symbolic) the _dreamwork of the codework_ - code decoding and a-production (imaginary) There is no _fundamental unit_ of either code or dream; code runs into the discursive formation described by Christian Metz in his film semiotics - it slips, just as dream slips in a more acceptable analysis. Wie viele von diesen Steller Raeume waren schon innen in mir. (RMR) How many of these places in space are already in me. http://www.asondheim.org/inthehills.mov (small) an hundert Stellen ist es noch Ursprung. (RMR) at a hundred places it remains Origin. at a hundred points it is still Origin. at a hundred points it is Origin still. (Norton) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:40:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458A031B.90608@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Quick apology for my remark - which must have seemed from out of nowhere, meaningless. Very interesting discussion and I appreciate the fact that I am smart enough, at the very least, to hold-tight and read what is a wonderful discussion. AJ --- Jesse Crockett wrote: > Admittedly, I've only just read the Chinese room > thought experiment, and > let me say, I'm nearly laughing ! Searle must think > very highly of > hisself, if he thinks he could process Chinese > faster than Deep Blue, > which, I add, Kasparov claimed played a move "too > human" to be computed, > and that was a decade ago. The greatest chess mind > ever, famed for his > infinitely subtle play! How is the Chinese Room > thought experiment > "difficult" at all, when considering for advancement > in computational > speeds? The human mind processes "language symbols" > at, we can > practically state, at near light speed. When > machines can do this, they > will be conscious. The Chinese Room thought > experiment is quite silly, > in my opinion. On the other side, you have the > notion of STRONG > artificial intelligence. Why do we say "strong," > when we could say > practical or even, to be simple, good? Because a > statement of > "strength" is a roundabout way of claiming absolute > dominion by a > particular sphere of privilege and influence. Very > intelligent human > beings are often pitiably weak. Would you say their > minds are strong, > because they can recite some Chaucer over a bottle > of cheap scotch, or > go into greater detail of the Chinese Room thought > experiment---? > Idano, I'm just saying... > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 00:34:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: <58FBF209-7594-40D0-9C60-0F398BDB0D99@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nice - and true! AJ --- mIEKAL aND wrote: > (the fresh fruit howl sounds good..) > > Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English > more savoury > > By Clifford Coonan in Beijing > > Published: 21 December 2006 > > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2091871.ece > > "Complicated cake", "pee soup", "five sliced > things", "dumpling > stuffed with the ovary and digestive glands of a > crab" and, > hopefully, "crap in the grass" are being banished > from Beijing's > restaurants - as part of a plan to improve English > spelling and > standardise signs and menus for the 2008 Olympics. > > One of the many joys of eating out in China is the > linguistic > richness of the English menus - the misspelling of > carp will always > raise a giggle. > > But chefs still favour direct translations from > Chinese, or rather > prosaic descriptions of the food on offer, and there > are wonderful > examples of garbled English all around the capital. > Among this > correspondent's favourites is "fuck the certain > price of goods" - far > more striking than "sale now on," while "children is > not recommended" > has a certain elegance."Enter the mouth", a > mistranslation of the > Chinese characters for "entrance" is also common on > signposts. > > The messages can range from the linguistically > marvellous to the > plain baffling. The spa in my apartment building > promises a "babble > bath", while in the Starbucks outlet at the airport > you could buy a > "fresh fruit howl" instead of a fruit bowl. Property > advertisements > are particularly prone, such as the skyscraper sold > as "a wonder of > national cream". > > There are good intentions behind trying to put road > signs in English > as well as Chinese, and generally the road signs are > very accurate. > However, some safety signs can be truly magnificent: > "No blowing of > horn. Keep silence!" or "notice the rockslide, > please is run about by > cliff". > > Eager to avoid red faces ahead of the Olympics, the > Chinese > government has set up a major drive to standardise > the use of English > in public, called the "Beijing speaks to the world > committee," which > scours the capital seeking out menus or road signs > lost in > mistranslation. It has finished translating more > than 1,000 dishes > and drinks so far. "We welcome public participation > and suggestions," > the committee told the Beijing Daily. > > Some 300 million people are learning English in > China, and the > standard has improved dramatically in recent years, > which means fewer > howlers like those listed above. But I will always > recall landing in > Kunming airport in Yunnan province in the 1990s to > see a sign > reading: "We welcome our foreign fiends." A mistake, > surely. > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:34:53 +0100 Reply-To: xavier@confettiS.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "[X[confettiS.org]L]" Organization: confettiS.org Subject: Dalachinsky in Marseille (france) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Hello, Steve dalachinsky was in Marseille last week. You can listen to him on the site of the cipM (international center of poetry Marseille - mostly in french) http://www.cipmarseille.com/evenement_fiche.php?id=3D527 To come to Marseille you can deposit your candidature of residence for the international center of poetry of Marseille: http://www.cipmarseille.com/evenements_liste.php?id_type=3D3 (txt in french) workshops, http://www.cipmarseille.com/series_index.php?id=3D4 translations, http://www.cipmarseille.com/series_index.php?id=3D5 a free library on line, http://www.cipmarseille.com/bibliotheque.php http://www.cipmarseille.com/telechargements_index.php poems with reading and downloading with the format pdf, http://www.cipmarseille.com/enregistrements_index.php readings to be listened such as for example Steve Dalachinsky. http://www.cipmarseille.com/evenement_fiche.php?id=3D527 "build by hands" etc.Come to see us. http://www.cipmarseille.com/vieille-charite.php? Bests, Xavier -- http:// |_cipMarseille.com |_criticast.net/index.php?cat=3Dconfettis.org |_confettiS.org=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 |_villeS.allant.vers.confettiS.org |_emigratrion.confettiS.org |_XavierL =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0|_++ 33 [+]4 91 42 52 57 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0|_++ 33 [+]6 86 72 70 15 ___________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Strong AI Comments: To: Jim Andrews In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable On 21 Dec 2006 at 22:09, Jim Andrews wrote: > Not sensible to say a system ... understands > anything? I disagree. Our own understanding of things is not done > by a little man inside our head living alone on the couch. Our own > understanding and consciousness is a vast network of inter-related > 'parts of ourself' or 'subsystems'. We are each of us a virtual > cosmos of inter-related parts, no one of which is the essential > 'us'. Our minds are themselves systems of vast proportions.< The point of the Chinese Room thought experiment is to question whether things that we normally think of as requiring thought can be done with no thought at all. The construction of the Chinese Room is purposefully done to eliminate the possibility that the "whole system" is thinking. The basis of the thought experiment is that the whole is NOT thinking. The beginning conditions posit, instead, one set of symbols is being substituted, without thought, for another but in a context (the room itself) that leaves the room's observers without knowledge of what's going on inside the room with the impression either that there is a Chinese-speaking person inside the room, or that the room itself speaks Chinese when in fact we, the knowledgeable observers, KNOW, as part of the postulates of the room, that there is not a Chinese-speaking person inside the room AND that the room itself is not speaking Chinese. You have to start there, in good faith with the thought experiment, or else you are changing the thought experiment entirely -- else you are committing the logical fallacy of begging the question, assuming your conclusion in your premise, when you say the whole system is thinking. Wes Chapman suggests that the thought experiment is flawed and thus irrelevant because Searle has failed to account for the rules by which the non-Chinese speaker sorts through Chinese characters to produce an appropriate Chinese response. Chapman says that we might consider that the rules themselves are doing the thinking, and he points out that there are no such rules extant -- that we're not even close to being able to formulate such rules. I think this fails, too, because the rules themselves are as fictional as the situation of the room. Searle doesn't have to account for them any more than he has to account for how to feed or evacuate the wastes of the person in the room. The rules are postulated as part of the condition of the thought experiment. Searle's experiment asks "If a machine passes the Turing Test consistently, what then?" The Chinese Room attempts to refute the Turing Test as THE test of whether a system thinks by positing a system that from the outside we'd have to agree DOES think, but by at the same time revealing to us that no thinking whatever is going on. Positing those two contradictory as-yet-fictional facts is the point of the Chinese Room thought experiment. You have to start there in good faith or else you're merely changing the beginning point and, by changing it, are changing this thought experiment into some other thought experiment. Chapman's suggestion that it is the rules doing the thinking is really just another way to phrase "The Systems Reply" -- it puts off the question rather than answering it. Chapman is right that no such rules exist, and that we're not even very close to formulating such rules. But that's no reason not to do the thought experiment that asks what happens if there were such rules. The question of the Chinese Room remains: "Given these initial conditions, what then?" Marcus But there is an essential element missing from the brain analogy, which reveals the trouble with this entire line of argument. We know that the brain is the physical organ of thought; the only question is whether it produces thought in some circumscribed portion-a specialized "thinking department"-or acts en bloc. This makes it legitimate to conclude, if an exhaustive search reveals no such portion, that the whole brain is involved in thinking. But we cannot conclude by analogy that the whole Chinese Room is thinking, because the question of whether thought is involved at all in that "system" is precisely what is in question. This is not to say that thinking has never been involved in the history of the Chinese Room (presumably the lexicon writer could think), only that active thinking is already finished before the Chinese Room opens for business. What remains is the pickled or flash-frozen product of thinking, which is just sufficient to produce the effect the originating thinker (or programmer) intended. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 05:35:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: help w quotation! (ignorance is bliss till it's deadline time, which is now) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The poems of heaven and hell have all been written. The clear poetry of earth remains to be written." is this accurate? and (agh) is it Keats, or Stevens being Keatsian? thanks! fuddled in Tucson, Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:03:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458B877D.15867.7DFE71B@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit marcus, the searle chinese room thought experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room ) is misguided in its conception of programming. it simply posits a static rule book and a follower of the rules of the rule book. but the rule book (ie the programming) need not be static. the rule book is continually being re-written. computer programs also can re-write their own programming, by the way, or the code of other programs. we ourselves know it is hard for us to change our own programming, our habits, our ingrained behaviors, that which we do without conscious consideration. but we also know that while it is difficult, it is also possible. this is part of what it means to be able to learn. when we learn a language, we not only write ourselves a rule book that is used to process the language but also write ourselves rule books on how to edit our rule books. Additionally, the rule books query colorful relational databases that we build up. These databases store experience that is coded into objects, events, and their properties, such as words for them. But clearly there is no one-to-one relation between words and the objects of our memory. i'm suggesting, marcus, that searle's chinese room thought experiment does not give us a very rich scenario for what is involved in programming that might aspire to something as complex as mind. one might reply to the above by saying, well, however complex the programming, however many guards are guarding the guards, it is still simply a turing machine crunching symbols. but we ourselves convert our sensory impressions to some sort of informational representation, whether the representation is digital or not, and store and process those . ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:32:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Re: Bowery Arts + Science In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed bob happy hols did you see the nic e newspaper mention of the upcoming bpc anna siano nudie poetry reading? susan maurer >From: Bob Holman >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Bowery Arts + Science >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:59:45 EST > > >Dear EPCeers, >Folllowing is the Direct Mail ask from Bowery Arts + Science, Ltd. You can >donate via _http://boweryartsandscience.org/sponsor_us.htm_ >(http://boweryartsandscience.org/sponsor_us.htm) or by sending a check to >Bowery Arts + Science, > 310 Bowery, NY NY 10012. Should you want to be on the Bowery Poetry >Club?™s >email list: _http://bowerypoetry.com/email_signup.htm_ >(http://bowerypoetry.com/email_signup.htm) . >Bowery Arts + Science, Ltd sponsors many of the events at the Bowery >Poetry >Club which will never break even. To learn more, visit >_www.boweryartsandscience.org_ (http://www.boweryartsandscience.org/) , >newly and handsomely >redesigned by Jerrold Shirma. >Happy Hollies ??if yr in town, we have a helluva New Years Eve party! >Bob Holman >Dear Friend, >It?™s always been easy to find the Bowery Poetry Club ???œlocated across >the >street from CBGBs.?? But with the closing of CB?™s (can you believe >Hilly?™s >moving to Vegas?!), what are our new coordinates? ?œLocated across from >huge ugly >new apartment complex emblematic of gentrification and disneyfication of >the >Lower East Side?? >I think we?™ll stick with ?œacross from CBGB.??>Like the phantom buildings >in Managua ???œTurn left at the hospital??but the >hospital hasn?™t been there for forty years -- the palimpsest of the >explosion >of punk still rocks the Bowery, and in the Bowery Poetry Club you still >can >hear it. >We?™re proud of our place in the lineage of populist art: the Yiddish >theater, burlesque and vaudeville and beat and punk that gave the Bowery >its name >before it slid to skid row, before its current resurrection as hot new >Downtown >high-rent zone. >By resisting the contemporary blanding of so much of Downtown, by staying >true to our roots while exploring new ways for poetry and its sister arts >to >find places in the daily lives of the citizenry, the Club is, as the >NYTimes >says, ?œa Beacon on the Bowery.??>?œWill poets drink enough at the bar to >support their poetry habit and get >the Club?™s rent paid???was the originating question of the BPC. After four >years of running in the red, I think the answer is, plainly, No. Why? >Because we??>re the only bar in the world that asks the customer to Please >shut up and >listen to the poem, as opposed to Another round?. >Meanwhile, this year has been as active as ever ??we had Praise Days for >Robert Creeley, Pedro Pietri and Barbara Guest; a Symposum on the 50th >Anniversary of Ginsberg?™s ?œHowl??featuring John Giorno, Edward Sanders; >Patti Smith >sitting in on clarinet with Janet Hamill and Moving Star; the artist Jim >Dine >giving his first-ever poetry reading; our Study Abroad on the Bowery >program >went all the way to the CUNY Grad Center to present readings by Alcalay, >ABerrigan, Hernandez Cruz, Troupe, Sapphire, Patricia Smith, Vicuna, >Notley?? >If you?™re convinced ??Stop! Now! and send us a contribution??If you want >to >hear more, read on ??there is LOTS more, only some of which will be in >this >appeal??> * With funding from Yahoo, we?™ve been busing students in >to hear our >Griot-in ?“Residence, Papa Susso, trace the roots of hiphop back across >the >Middle Passage > * Poetry dinners! With Basque poets and food, and Aguinaldo! Puerto >Rican living poesia y comidas ( collaborations with the wonderful >CityLore)??> * Our staff stepping up, performing and producing >events, selling >books from the bar. And congratulations to bartender Moonshine, Mr Lower >East >Side 2007! > * Book Parties for many many, including Linton Kwesi Johnson, >Edward >Field, Patricia Spears Jones, Bea Gates and our own Bowery Books, the >newest >being Women of the Bowery, 76 poets, 76 poems, 76 photos and bios. Our >next >book is Estamos Aqui, a bilingual book of poems by migrant workers. > * Monthly American Sign Language readings for deaf poets??> * > Edwin Torres?™s ongoing experimental workshop to create a >Poets??>Symphony??> * And in early December, Bowery Arts and Science >will have a Think/Do >Tank to create five and ten year plans. Michael Warr, the founder of >Chicago??>s Guild Complex and a brilliant non-profit strategist, will be >leading the >weekend?™s activities. >For these programs not only to succeed, but to thrive, we need your >support. >Bowery Arts and Science is hoping to raise $66,000 to support these >evolving >endeavors. That?™s an average donation of $50 -- but, from everybody. >So here we are, ?œa Beacon on the Bowery??(New York Times), a home of an >??>anarchic blend of spoken word, music and theater hijinx??(Time Out New >York), >and ?œa word playground where traditions can coexist and be passed >on??(Village >Voice). We?™re asking for your support so we can not only be true to >these >words, but also broaden the opportunities for more to find their (poetic) >homes here. >The possibilities, it could be said?”are up to you. >Poetically yours, >Bob Holman >Executive Director, Bowery Arts and Science >Proprietor, Bowery Poetry Club > > _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: voicing minority poetries + one In-Reply-To: <458B6EB3.1050504@hawaii.rr.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable they sound terrific--is there a way to get ahold of these papers? On 12/22/06 12:35 AM, "Susan Webster Schultz" wrote= : > Friday, 29 December >=20 > *362. Voicing Minority Poetries* >=20 > /8:30=AD9:45 a.m., Grand Ballroom Salon J, Philadelphia Marriott/ >=20 > A special session >=20 > /Presiding: / Susan Martha Schultz, Univ. of Hawai=8Ci, Ma-noa >=20 > 1. =B3Voicing against the Grain of Orality: Cecil Taylor Sounding the > Poetics of Black Voice,=B2 Aldon Lynn Nielsen, Penn State Univ., > University Park >=20 > 2. =B3Recording the Grain of the Filipino Voice,=B2 Theodore Gonzalves, > Univ. of Hawai=8Ci, Ma-noa >=20 > 3. =B3Performing a Secular Judaism: David Antin, Jerome Rothenberg, > Charles Bernstein, and Rachel Blau DuPlessis,=B2 Hank Lazer, Univ. of > Alabama, Tuscaloosa >=20 > And there will also be a paper by Walter Lew on cinepoetry. >=20 > Please join us. >=20 > sms ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:35:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Liz Willis, Rod Stewart: Stoning the Devil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New on Stoning the Devil (http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com): --a review of Elizabeth Willis's "Meteoric Flowers" --the Faces do McCartney on YouTube --the Net and "Indie-Po" via REM --Myopic Reading, Chicago scene... --NYC, Fulcrum --much more __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:43:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Ruiz III Subject: The Postmodern School for Research in Culture In-Reply-To: <538449.21872.qm@web54510.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Postmodern School for Research in Culture Online Graduate Program in Cultural Theory and Criticism http://intertheory.org/pmsedu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:10:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: Announcing E=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=B7ratio?= Issue 8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed The new issue of E=B7ratio is now online. http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com With poetry by: Anne Gorrick, Marci Nelligan, Donald Wellman, Jody=20 Porter, Nicholas Manning, Chad Sweeney, Christine Hamm, MTC Cronin,=20 Amanda Laughtland, David Chikhladze, Jonathan Minton, and Scott=20 Wilkerson "Though we are continually being hurt owing to the narrowness of the=20 reality in which we dwell, we blame life, and do not see the necessity=20= of finding absolutely new standpoints." --Maurice Nicoll E=B7ratio 8 http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:38:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: help w quotation! (ignorance is bliss till it's deadline time, which is now) In-Reply-To: <004201c725c5$a99b22d0$6401a8c0@Tenney> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tenney, This is from a James Longenbach review of Ashbery's Where Shall I Wander: "Wallace Stevens once remarked that while we possess the great poems of heaven and hell, the great poems of the earth remain to be written." http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/longenbach.html On 12/22/06, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > "The poems of heaven and hell have all been written. The clear poetry of > earth remains to be written." > > is this accurate? and (agh) is it Keats, or Stevens being Keatsian? > > thanks! > > fuddled in Tucson, > > Tenney > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:42:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: help w quotation! (ignorance is bliss till it's deadline time, which is now) In-Reply-To: <750c78460612220838i123fbfa5k24128a2270ee9b6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ...and according to COLLEGE ENGLISH v22 n6 March 1961 it was from p. 142 of Stevens' Necessary Angel. Except that quote, which obviously I would take over Longenbach's, has it: "...the great poems of heaven and hell have been written and the great poem of the earth remains to be written." Of course, I'm not sure which edition of The Necessary Angel, but it must be prior to 1961. Dan On 12/22/06, Dan Coffey wrote: > Tenney, > > This is from a James Longenbach review of Ashbery's Where Shall I > Wander: "Wallace Stevens once remarked that while we possess the great > poems of heaven and hell, the great poems of the earth remain to be > written." http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/longenbach.html > > On 12/22/06, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > > "The poems of heaven and hell have all been written. The clear poetry of > > earth remains to be written." > > > > is this accurate? and (agh) is it Keats, or Stevens being Keatsian? > > > > thanks! > > > > fuddled in Tucson, > > > > Tenney > > > > > -- > http://hyperhypo.org/blog > http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:05:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: help w quotation! (ignorance is bliss till it's deadline time, which is now) In-Reply-To: <750c78460612220842m5f41acd7h11b95534aaa5a919@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed It is on page 142 of the Vintage paperback of The Necessary Angel with a most recent copyright of 1961. You can find this edition in used bookstores pretty easily. This passage occurs midway through "Imagination as Value" right after a bullet list of things noted about Pascal in Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. JP On Dec 22, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Dan Coffey wrote: > ...and according to COLLEGE ENGLISH v22 n6 March 1961 it was from p. > 142 of Stevens' Necessary Angel. Except that quote, which obviously I > would take over Longenbach's, has it: "...the great poems of heaven > and hell have been written and the great poem of the earth remains to > be written." > > Of course, I'm not sure which edition of The Necessary Angel, but it > must be prior to 1961. > > Dan > > On 12/22/06, Dan Coffey wrote: >> Tenney, >> >> This is from a James Longenbach review of Ashbery's Where Shall I >> Wander: "Wallace Stevens once remarked that while we possess the >> great >> poems of heaven and hell, the great poems of the earth remain to be >> written." http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/longenbach.html >> >> On 12/22/06, Tenney Nathanson wrote: >> > "The poems of heaven and hell have all been written. The clear >> poetry of >> > earth remains to be written." >> > >> > is this accurate? and (agh) is it Keats, or Stevens being >> Keatsian? >> > >> > thanks! >> > >> > fuddled in Tucson, >> > >> > Tenney >> > >> >> >> -- >> http://hyperhypo.org/blog >> http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com >> > > > -- > http://hyperhypo.org/blog > http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ http://www.iowadsl.net/~jpcraig ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:21:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: observable today: FREE anthology!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donate any amount before midnight tonight (http://observable.org/dollar/) and receive a FREE "Readings @ The Contemporary" anthology, containing poems by Stephanie Young, Daniel Nester, Robyn Schiff, Jocelyn Emerson, Roberto Harrison, Carl Dennis, Rodney Jones, and many others. No shipping charges or anything! Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:32:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Day Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've written some of those self-writing programs. They don't invalidate the Chinese Room experiment. The self-writing program - even if it self-modifies - is still an example of a von Neuman machine. Each instruction is processed step by step. That's what a computer does, even the fancier pipe-lining models. Even parallel computers conform to this linear processing model. The Chinese Room is a thought experiment and presents it's details starkly. To use another metaphor, the Mechanical Turk, the computer is always controlled by someone, just at a distance in the terms of the program. The computer can never break out of the algorithmic control laid down by the programmer. If it transitions from one behaviour to another, then it's doing what it's told :-) A computer never self-actualises, it never says to itself, "I feel like a cup of coffee now". If it did, I wouldn't trust it to mow the lawn. For a long time, Science Fiction writers used the mind as a metaphor for the supposed machine-minds. This has led us a merry dance, particularly with AI, which seemed to offer the promise of the machine mind. Sci-fi writers got it wrong; they also got wrong the speed of computers and, up until the eighties/nineties and the advent of the internet, the distributed nature of computers and networks, of our reality. I think distributed computers, and their real-time parallel processing, their chatter in protocols, is a step nearer to sentience. There are various ideas abroad about building machines using small units, and simple rules. Think Game-of-life but in a mechanical form. Not as glamorous as AI, obviously (^_^) but something which I think may stand a better chance of working. Roger On 12/22/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > marcus, > > the searle chinese room thought experiment ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room ) is misguided in its conception > of programming. it simply posits a static rule book and a follower of the > rules of the rule book. but the rule book (ie the programming) need not be > static. the rule book is continually being re-written. computer programs > also can re-write their own programming, by the way, or the code of other > programs. > > we ourselves know it is hard for us to change our own programming, our > habits, our ingrained behaviors, that which we do without conscious > consideration. but we also know that while it is difficult, it is also > possible. this is part of what it means to be able to learn. when we learn a > language, we not only write ourselves a rule book that is used to process > the language but also write ourselves rule books on how to edit our rule > books. Additionally, the rule books query colorful relational databases that > we build up. These databases store experience that is coded into objects, > events, and their properties, such as words for them. But clearly there is > no one-to-one relation between words and the objects of our memory. > > i'm suggesting, marcus, that searle's chinese room thought experiment does > not give us a very rich scenario for what is involved in programming that > might aspire to something as complex as mind. > > one might reply to the above by saying, well, however complex the > programming, however many guards are guarding the guards, it is still simply > a turing machine crunching symbols. but we ourselves convert our sensory > impressions to some sort of informational representation, whether the > representation is digital or not, and store and process those . > > ja > http://vispo.com > -- http://www.badstep.net/ "Hello Cleveland! Hello Cleveland!" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:23:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Seamlessly sick -> Xanax Pop, by Lewis LaCook Comments: To: webartery , rhizome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You walk water towns, faceless and arrogant. Dripping crystal limbs of pure light. Dripping crystal lint of puree light. You walk water tower faces, endlessly ignorant. Endlessly raining, seamlessly sick. Drifting critical patch. Pretty life. Endlessly faceful, determined to saturate. Light purls. Gingerly forceful, You walk water, down to faceless. Ending arrogance. *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| New Media Poetry and Poetics ||http://www.abstractoutlooks.com || Abstract Outlooks Media - A New Vision for A New Web Hosting, Design, Development ||http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org|| Xanax Pop - A Bloge of Poemes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, I would like to approach the question from another angle, not of understanding (does the machine understand Chinese, etc?) or achievement; but of class or race. Even if a "box"/robot is as intelligent or knowledgeable, etc., does it belong to the same class? As human beings, are we ready to accept a total democracy between the machine and the human? The line of debate here seems to assume that one is dealing with a purely empirical issue, to be determined by "facts" or arguments around symbolic logic . Is it so? Is the question not as strongly ethical or metaphysical, an issue of choice? This is not an idle question, but full of profound anxiety. Think, for example, of the novel "Do Humanoids(?) Dream of Electric Sheep?" Synthetic pets may be as cute, if not cuter, and as loving as its "non-digital" (?) counterparts. Besides, they are deathless -since eternally replicable- consquently avoiding causing the unpleasant experience of loss. Why, then, even the mangiest of dogs is a desperate object of desire in the novel? Ciao, Murat On 12/22/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > If the room is successfully responding > > > to Chinese, then the *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking > > up symbols, > > > must understand Chinese. > > > > Which is one response that defenders of Strong AI often give to > > the Chinese Room argument. It's common enough that it's known as > > the "Systems Reply," that is, the subject is the whole system, > > not the man in the room, and the system is able understand > > Chinese. It's a point with some force. My problem with it is that > > I don't think it's sensible to say a system understands anything. > > Not sensible to say a system ( > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/system ) understands anything? I > disagree. Our own understanding of things is not done by a little man > inside > our head living alone on the couch. Our own understanding and > consciousness > is a vast network of inter-related 'parts of ourself' or 'subsystems'. We > are each of us a virtual cosmos of inter-related parts, no one of which is > the essential 'us'. Our minds are themselves systems of vast proportions. > We > contain cosmos. Every little thing we do is magic, draws on depths we do > not > understand but can nonetheless acknowledge. Even the simple act of > remembering something is mysterious and draws on numerous parts of > ourselves > we barely comprehend. > > This thread began with discussion of the cutup. The cutup is often thought > to fragment what was whole. Sometimes when working with cutups we feel > that > the wholeness was a carefully manicured impression of the aggregate that > had > more variety and individuals lurking in it than we had known. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:17:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: the cut-up & revolt against programming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline David, A few random thoughts around your explosive post: a) Another text pointing to the emerging importance of the eye over the ear (pattern, movement over sound) is Barthes's essay on Loyola. In his introduction to Loyola's work, Barthes says that the final stage in Loyolan meditation is to create a visual field of absolute equilibrium where nothing directs the mind one way or another; the mind has no choice but to choose at random -an ultimate act of liberation. All he remembers of Loyola, Barthes says, is Loyola's "eyes full of tears" -an image very relevant also to Turkish Sufism. b) Villon's coded communications in his poetry is almost exactly the style of the Turkish poet Ece Ayhan's "A Blind Cat Black" and "Orthodoxies" (Sun and Moon Press). With one difference: the surface clarity and transparency of Villon's poetry exists in Ece Ayhan in the clarity of its emotional (rather than syntactic) timber. c) The Turkish poet Ilhan Berk (Talisman Books), who is in his eighties now, was in New York three years ago. I took him the the Guggenheim's Museum. He ran through the displays exactly the same, only focusing on a few of them for less than a minute. It was an amazing experience. d) This connection (dialectic) between walking (movement) and seeing (flanerie turning into vision) is crucial. For example, The Peripheral Space of Photography emerges out of a walk in which seeing becomes a meditative, fluid process. Ciao, Murat On 12/19/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > Burroughs oftein cited Brion Gysin as the source of his interest in > the > cut-ups, also Gysin's remark that writing lagged fifty years painting. > Burroughs' interest in the cut-ups is in a number of related areas. One > is > that by cutting up texts, one is "break(ing) through in the grey room" > where > the program of edited reality films is made. This is to break down > control--the control of events as pre-concstructed by the total work of > art > of language-image-sound which is imposed on one as "reality" in an > unalterable sequence of events--i.e. a programming, as Burroughs notes the > Mayan calendar is an instruemnt of control, so Time magazine and the media > are instruments of programmed control. Burroughs' ultimate aim stated > over > and over, is to get rid of written language and replace it with a visual > pictographic/hieroglyphic notation which can be transmitted silently--no > sound articulated in the mind at all--direct transmission along the lines > of > telepathy. (His interest in yage was inspired in part by claims he had > heard that it enabled one to communicate telepathically.) This form of > transmission has as it goal to liberate one in terms of time and space > travel. Via the cut-up, the element of chance is opened up to--and when > chance flows through, the hidden face of both control and its breaking > down > can be found. Patterns emerge that were previously hidden, revealing on > the > one hand hidden orders, and on the other, poetentialites for their > breakdown > and reconfiguration. The entropic/negentropic possibilities of the > elements > which with one works, the areas in which uncertainty moves among order and > chaos, noise and music, iamge and decomposition become avaiable as an area > in which on can live ouside the imposed controls especially of language > and > programming. This is introduced in his first book, Junkie, with > Burroughs' > emphasis on the contingent which ends the statement following the small > "Glossary" section to the book. "Not only do the words change meanings > but > meanings vary locally at the same time. A final glossary, therefore, > cannot > be made of words whose intentions are fugitive." > (A great example of this exists in the poetry of Francois Villon, > who worked simulatenously, within a poem, a line, in both the common > spoken > language and in the "jargon", the secret language of the vast criminal > networks spread nomadically throughout the France of his time. In reading > Villon, one finds simultaneously existing language which is of great > clarity > and force, and language which is in many instances as inpenetrable as the > egyptian heiroglyphics before the finding of the Rosetta Stone. > The emphasis on visuality--Burroughs worked with film and sound > recrodings on cut-ups and later in life beacme a painter--using randomness > of shooting boards of his paintings with guns to release chance forms as > well as explode the colors in chance conigurations--this emphasis on > visuality leading the way goes back to the beginning of modernism. > Modernism is first defined by Baudelaire in "The Painter of Everyday > Life": "He (the painter "ceaselesly journeying across the great human > desert" of the city) is looking for that quality which you must allow me > to > call modernity; for I know of no better word to express what I have in > mind. > He makes it his business to extract from fashion whatever element of it > may contain of poetry within history, to distill the eternal from the > transitory . . . By 'modernity' I mean the ephermeral, the fugitive, the > contingent, the half of art whose other half is eternal and immutable." > Baudelaire and Burroughs both use the word "fugiitive" and > Baudeliare > also uses a word Olson often employs--the "contingent". > It's very intereting that Baudelaire finds the artist of modernity to > be a painter in that Baudelaire himself invented the prosepoem, whcih is a > response to the rhythms of modernity in the rapidly changing urban > envirirnment, in the speeding up of modes of transport, perception and > communication and process of reproduction of words and > images. (Baudelaire > portrays the painter of modernity--his example is Constantin Guys--as the > opposite of the flanuer--Guys is always hurrying, hurrying--a purposeful > cousin to Poe's dromomanical "Man in the Crowd" or De Quincey's opium > eater's endless walks around night time London, moving in a kind of > psychogeogrpahical derive well before the wine drinking Lettristes and > Situationistes.) (Baudelaire is also the translator of Poe and De > Quincey.) > Yet what is beginning to propel greater freedom in painting is the > advent of something Baudelaire is antagonistic towards--photography. It > is > new forms of visuality in a changing painting and in photography which are > leading the way in changing in approaches to thinking about the elements > of > their media, which eventually find their way into writing. > (In "Nature" Emerson also notes a changing visuality is opening > literally "new frontiers"--he notes how things look differently at > different > rates of speed--already the "estrangement" and "aleination" effect can be > produced by riding in a carriage, but how much more so the ways things are > seen from the increasing speeds of the locomotive. Like Poe's "Purloined > Letter" for Emerson--as for Baudelaire's painter and as photography is > beginning to show--"the blank and ruin we see in nature is within our own > eye". That is, the "new world" and "original relation with the universe" > come with a revolution in one's "ways of seeing things" so to speak. What > becomes found, discovered, is that whih like Poe's letter is hidden in > plain > sight. Or as i prefer to pharse it hidden in plain site/sight/cite. > Changes > in seeing become ways to break down the programming of Burroughs' grey > room > of control which is imposed by written language as programmable, a > contract > by which one is bound. "If it is not in writing it never happened" is a > sign frequently seen in offices of bureaucary and institutions of > control--social services, legal system etc are sites one often finds this > dire warning--or sympathetic "word to the wise" depending on th way you > want > to take it at any particular moment. > Although not recognized until about fifty years later, > Lautremont > in 1868/9 in Malodoror already recognizes the role that chance will play > in > the revolt against programmed perception and language, when he writes of > the > chance meeting of a sewing machine and an umbrella on an operating table. > The presence of the sewing mchine on an operating table isn't so far > fetched--after all, like the doctor, it is a device for > suturing-(Burrough's > Dr Benway is a kind of anti-suturing being) -later to become the operation > of a film editor on the editing table, or the cutting up and suturing of > images and texts in cut-ups. The umbrella?-let the mind start racing with > associations! As i heard a woman say at bus stop, brandishing her > umbrella > on an overcast morning--"ain't nobody gonna rain on MY parade!" Damn > straight! > The role of chnace and visuality--modern visual poetry is usually > said to begin with Mallarme's text, "A Throw of the dice will Never > Abolish > Chance". > In Dada Art and Anti-Art hans Richter writes that the pioneer of > chance in dada is the painter/poet Hans/Jean Arp. Before the tossed "word > slads" of the poets, Arp had discovered by chance the freedom in chance: > working with some colored paper forms he couldn't get to work "right" in > trying to exprss himself, he threw the pices up in the air and let them > fall > on the floor. Looking at them a little later he realzied with a shock > they > were expressing exaclty what he had been after,m yet incapble of doing on > his own. He glued the piece in the patterns in which they had fallen and > from there continued to work with chance in his visual/relief works. (Arp > is also an overlooked, very good poet, in both French and German.) > "Chance became our tradmark" Richter writes of the Dadaists. Chnace > was a great stimulatr and opener ofquestions whith which Burroughs also > works in with his cut-ups: "Was it the artist's unconscious mind, or a > power outside him, that had spoken? Was a mysterious "collborator" at > work, > a power in which one could place one's trust? Was it part of oneself, or > a > combination of factors uite beyond anyone's control?" Richter sees the > Dada > activities as forerunners of Ujung's ideas and explorations of > synchronicity. " . . . the use of chance had opened up an important new > diemnsion in art: the techniquesof free asosociation, fragmenetary trians > of thought, unexpected juxtapostions of words and sounds. In the field o > viual art this new freedom had consequences that were possibly even more > far-reaching." > > Re the question abt why this articular mmoment i wrote at the appropriate > place, comments, re an important influence in the 1950's on paiting, > poetry, happenings etc etc--the painter Robert Motherwell translated and > edited The dada Painters and Poets, still today a great and influential > anthology. I think the role of art critic played by both Ashberry and > O'Hara > (and Ashbery's translations) were also very influential in brining things > learned froom painting into writing. there is also a great infleunce > inchanges in music at the time, inperomance and hapenings and in films > both > "undergroiund" and New Wave, with Godard's making use of jump -cuts > etc--so > finally about fifty years later than with dada, one finds these things > begining to apear in american poetry. William Carlos Willaims noted by > Robert Smithson when the latter visited him n late 1950's--that WCW > emphasized the greater role painting and painters had for him than poets > in > his work. (Spring and All is dedicated to the painter Demuth.) > (And influence very ealry on of the painters Gertrude Stein knew on > her writing--esp Cubism--) > Smithson writes that "the artit's art of looking" , a glance even, > cnbe > as solid as any work of art which is valued by society as an object, but > the > artit's art of looking is overlooked so to speak--without a ontineual > devlopmen of the art of looking, while it may not be "valued", just as the > time of the artits is not valued, only the work, the object, this also > makes > for a freedom from being programmed, it gives artist the opening to > continue > to have a "fugitive" art in Brroughs' sense, and one cotinually open to al > the awareness es of chnance, of synchronicities. The desire is not to be > imprisoned i an object, even in a process, but have an ongoing activity > and > expression which is outside of these systems of control. Burroughs in > the > Inroduction to Queer, writes that he writes to keep out of systems of > control whch otherwise take charge of him, of anyone. Writing is a way > out, > outer space, outside of conventioanl programmed language and working to > keep > it this way. > This is a way of life, not a series of theoretical or mapped poitions, > formulae for production of new forms of conformity in langauge and > visuality-- > "be street smart, don't get caught" as the slogan of Coup de Grace says. > One can see why Baudelaire first finds it in a painter hurryng through the > streets to take in visually all that he can o make into his works later. > And at that time also is advent of photography, also working wih > the > epehermal, fugivitvie and contingent in a cotinual egagement with the > immutable and eternal. Photography introduces a new way of expereincing > and > recording, a whole new system both of control and of possibilities of > wrecking control. I think one of lessons of Burroughs is against the > idea > of programming and becoming dependent on it--as he had been on junk and > also > on trust fund from the Burroughs family's adding machine patents. (His > maternal grandafther was Ivy lee, one of the great master manipulators of > word and image--the PR person who remaxde the onstrous robber baron > Rockefller into lovableold guy handing out dimes. Hitler tried to hire > Ivy > lee, but that was one moster too monstrous for even a Rockefleler > remodeler.) > Andy Gricevich wrote some things very interesting about doubt in a > recent post--the minute, the instant, i hear words like proramming,even > when > used to "program chance opeartions" and "strings of meaningless > words"--there is a great deal of doubt about this being necesssarily > wonderful. Say one creates a Deleuzian plateau of smooth > menainglessness--into this smooth vacant surface will pour the war > machines, > systems of control--there is no resistance there, or sense of ways out > being available at any moment. Likewise developing systems of language on > the page which are supposed to be resistant and radical etc--if this is > limited to effects on the page and among language only, it offers no > resistance to the forces outside the page and its own closed systems, no > matter who much syntax is disrupted and rearranged and moved about. > Gertrude > Stein, for example was a staunch anti-new Deal Republicanm and for al the > assualts on syntax in last decades, the society and institutions have > become > ever more conservative. (A Marzist Russian critic of the Italian > Futurists' > tour of Russia just before WW1 noted that "paole in liberta" exists on the > page, but not in prop0erty relations--one can disurpt and alter syntax and > have no effects on property tax let alone alone property. This was > something Stein understood herself.) > That is one of reasons Burroughs has such an impact--he lived the > thngs of which he wrote, and wrote to change his life. As he says in > Junkie: "Junk is not about kicks. It is a way of life." > You want to kick the junk habit, the language habit, the control > habit, > and the cut-ups and chance, synchornicities, become tools to create those > fugitive words which want to retain being street smart and not being > caught, > much like Smithson's idea of the artist's "art of looking" which exists > outside of objects of art. > There is a kind of training going on in Burroughs and Smithson, a > training to be a person living oustide of the control imposed on one in > any > forms as much as is possible. (One thinks of Olon's "stance towrds > relaity" in some way with this also.) I think this is related to somethng > Paul Celan wrote (in French in original)--"Poetry shold no longer impose > itself, but expose itself." > (And isn't photography an arftr of the exposure?--See Mura t > Nemet-Nejat's very stimualting poetry/photogrpahy book The Peripheral > Space > of Photography from green Integer.) > > > > > (Schwitters at the same time was writing things like: "There is no > such thing as chance. A door may happen to fall shut, but this is not by > chance. It is a conscious experience of the door, the door the door.") > > > > > > >From: Jim Andrews > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: responding to Ron Silliman's blog entry on the cutup > >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:32:58 -0800 > > > >"But a lot more important than figuring out just who should get credit > for > >cutting up & folding in is fathoming just why this move at this exact > >moment > >in history. " > >Silliman at http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com > > > >Ron quotes Burroughs, who famously remarked in the sixties that "The > cut-up > >method brings to writers the collage, which has been used by painters for > >fifty years." Burroughs also notes its use in film and photography. > > > >The cutup involves a media artist's or painter's sense of the writer's > >'material'. Usually when a writer speaks of 'the material' of his or her > >writing, what's referred to is the subject matter and the little > >sub-stories > >or central metaphors, that sort of thing, not the media. > > > >Practice in other arts is generally more familiar with the energies and > >methodologies of the cut. Partially because the grammars of image and > sound > >are not associated with so many rules and expectations. The structures of > >sentences are predicated on scads of grammar rules. Whereas when images > are > >created, the rules are not so strong. To break the rules of grammar is > >something that is seemingly more involved in breaking useful rules about > >how > >we make sense to one another than the same sorts of operations in the > >visual > >or sonic. The constraints upon the syntax of sentences are more deeply > >structural than the constraints in visual art or sound art or even film. > We > >spend years learning the rules of grammar and how to write coherent > >sentences, paragraphs, etc, and it's hard-won, a 'triumph into literacy'. > >To > >then start working with cutups involves a radically different branching > out > >into language. It's more a 'branching out' than simply a 'different > step'. > >It's multiple, combinatorial. > > > >So part of the answer to Ron's question of 'why this moment in history > for > >the cutup?' must surely be that the technique has been cultivated in many > >other arts over the last hundred years. Even if the technique is more > >problematical in writing, the adoption in literary practice has clearly > >followed from practice in other arts. > > > >But why has this technique come to be more or less commonly practiced in > so > >many arts over the last century? > > > >Partly because when working with media such as film or audio tape, > cutting > >apart/together is necessary in even modest journalistic compositions, > never > >mind getting fancy with the razor blade and getting a feel for it as a > >stroke of art. The materiality of film and recorded sound has been > crucial, > >I suspect. But even in modernism, there's collaging in things like > Pound's > >Cantos and widespread experimentation with juxtaposition in, say, > >surrealism. Or the visual publications of Dada and Futurism. But it's > less > >developed as part of a world view. What distinguishes Burroughs in his > work > >with the audio and written cutup is not only that disturbing brilliant > >trilogy and his influential audio cutups, but the world view he wrote > about > >and developed both in the work and in fascinating writings about the > method > >and its relations to cognition, addiction, originality, intention, > >goverance, language as virus... > > > >It's not simply the work itself but the world view etched into the work > and > >life. Burroughs developed a whole poetics or philosophy of the cutup. The > >cutup is not simply a technique of novelty for him. It's a technique to > >help > >alter one's own programming as a writer. It also involves questioning > >conscious intention as the only way to worthwhile, consequential, even > >'authentic' writing. "When you cut audio tape, the future leaks out." The > >future of writing, for instance. > > > >One can look at the cutup as a consequence of explorations, as above, of > >the > >materiality of media, whether the medium is visual or sonic or textual. > > > >I would ask you to also look at the following and its relations with the > >growing emphasis throughout the twentieth century on materiality. > > > >Concerning the language machine, I gotta say--with great enthusiasm--go > out > >and buy Martin Davis's book "The Universal Computer: From Leibniz to > >Turing" > >(the softcover version is called "Engines of Logic"). That book gives a > >better sense than any other I've encountered of the proximity of things > >like > >the development of the computer to our whole sense of language. Davis > >traces > >the development of the computer from "Leibniz's dream" of basically a > >language of symbolic logic and a machine capable of generating true > >propositions in that language. > > > >I suggest that the cutup technique is part of a whole change in our > >perspectives on language and machines--and ourselves. > > > >In the theory of computation, language is one of the central subjects of > >study--in the same sort of way that billiard-ball-like-objects are a > >central > >concern of physics. In the theory of computation, language is studied as > >strings of letters that can be generated, parsed, recognized, etc. The > >theory looks at the *mathematical* properties of such collections of > >strings, or languages. This isn't quite the same as an emphasis on the > >materiality of language, but it's obviously related in that it involves > >operations on strings of symbols, operations more or less independent of > >the > >'meaning' of the symbols. > > > >In the literary and general art history of the twentieth century, we see > a > >growing concern with and practice involving cutups and their related > >techniques of collage and juxtaposition. Involving what were unusual > >operations on language and image, tape, film, etc. And we also see the > rise > >of the theory of computation in which language is crucial. Language is > >crucial to programmability and the whole idea of the computer, going all > >the > >way back to Leibniz. It has often been said that language draws a magic > >circle round the realm of the thinkable. And the programmable. > > > >Our thoughts and images on what a human being is have changed in the > >twentieth century, have expanded to include the notion that we are soft > >machines. Just as Darwin gave us the conceptual framework to imagine > >humanity proceeding from the evolution of the most primitive of > life-forms, > >so too has the theory of computation and its consequences given us the > >conceptual tools to imagine the mind as a soft computing machine--that > >wildly exceeds, at the moment, the capacities of all modern computers. > >Still, there is no accepted proof that there exist thought processes of > >which humans are capable and computers are not, in theory and eventual > >practice. > > > >So that the fusion of language and logic, in the realization of Leibniz's > >dream, results in machines and languages capable of thought itself. That > is > >what thought is. > > > >And the cutup becomes a type of operation on language involved in our > >growing awareness of the poetential fecundity of dynamic process in > >language. The cutup lets us peek into the interzones of texts, the > >nether-worlds between the lines where the cyborg emerges. > > > >ja > >http://vispo.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Your Hotmail address already works to sign into Windows Live Messenger! > Get > it now > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get.live.com/messenger/overview > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Aristotle's three unites / example poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In a few months I'll be giving some workshops at which I plan to discuss Aristotle's three "unities" (time, place, and action) in relation to the crafting of poetry. I'm looking for some good short poems (to 30 lines but preferably shorter) that demonstrate or violate any of these unities (such as a poem that seems to be taking place at two different times or two different places). If you have some examples to share (with comments on them also welcom), I'd be most grateful. In some cases, a violation of these unities happens in a FAILED poem, and may be why it doesn't get published, so examples of that would be welcome too, though obviously they'd be harder to find (unless you've got some skeletons in your closet?). Much appreciated if anyone can help! My feeling is that sometimes it's fine to "violate" these unities in poetry, whereas sometimes it's not. For example, in a haiku, to convey an experience that is taking place in two different locations couldn't actually be experienced in the "here and now," so that could be a problem. Likewise, if a haiku is two moments, or too long a moment, that also weakens the focus and effectiveness of the poem. For example poems, I'd prefer something other than haiku or tanka, by the way. Michael Dylan Welch P.S. One of the workshops I'll be giving is for the Whidbey Island Writers Conference (http://www.writeonwhidbey.org/Conference/), near Seattle, coming up March 2-4, 2007. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:00:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: MLA panel: The Place of Place in Contemporary Experimental Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 DQoNCg0KDQpQbGVhc2UgY29tZSB0byB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIE1MQSBQYW5lbDoNCg0KNjMzLiBU aGUgUGxhY2Ugb2YgUGxhY2UgaW4gQ29udGVtcG9yYXJ5IEV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCBQb2V0cnkNCg0K U2F0dXJkYXksIDMwIERlY2VtYmVyDQo4OjMw4oCTOTo0NSBhLm0uLCAzMDIsIFBoaWxhZGVscGhp YSBNYXJyaW90dA0KDQpBIHNwZWNpYWwgc2Vzc2lvbg0KDQpQcmVzaWRpbmc6IENhbWlsbGUgTWFy dGluLCBSeWVyc29uIFVuaXYuDQoNCjEuICJQbGFjZSBvZiB0aGUgQmVhdXRpZnVsIFNlbnRlbmNl OiBQb2V0cnkgb2YgTWVpLW1laSBCZXJzc2VuYnJ1Z2dlLCINCk1hcnRoZSBSZWVkLCBVbml2LiBv ZiBMb3Vpc2lhbmEsIExhZmF5ZXR0ZQ0KDQoyLiAiVGhlIEhlYWR3YXRlcnMgb2YgUGxhY2U6IEtl biBCZWxmb3Jk4oCZcyBFY29sb2d1ZSwiDQpSb2JlcnQgQnVkZGUsIFVuaXYuIG9mIE5vcnRoZXJu IEJyaXRpc2ggQ29sdW1iaWENCg0KMy4gIidTZWUgYSBMaWdodCAvIFRha2UgU2hhcGUgaW4gdGhl IFBpdCc6IEplcm9tZSBSb3RoZW5iZXJn4oCZcyBQb2V0aWNzIG9mDQpQbGFjZSBpbiAnMTQgU3Rh dGlvbnMsJyINCk1pa2VsIEYuIFBhcmVudCwgQnJhbmRlaXMgVW5pdi4NCg== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:47:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Jim Andrews wrote: >>> If the room is successfully responding >>> to Chinese, then the *room as a whole*, not the speaker looking >> up symbols, >>> must understand Chinese. >> >> Which is one response that defenders of Strong AI often give to >> the Chinese Room argument. It's common enough that it's known as >> the "Systems Reply," that is, the subject is the whole system, >> not the man in the room, and the system is able understand >> Chinese. It's a point with some force. My problem with it is that >> I don't think it's sensible to say a system understands anything. > > Not sensible to say a system ( > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/system ) understands anything? This is why I think it's important to pay attention to the metaphors built into our language, and to be careful with the applications of universals like "system." I think the only thing it's sensible to literally predicate the verb "to understand of" are minds and things that have minds. So, in our world, and with our language, that's people and animals. It's true to say a mind is a system, but to say a system is therefore a mind and capable of understanding is to beg the question. I think if it does anything, and I'm pretty unimpressed by and large with a lot of the things the Chinese Room thought experiment claims to show, the scenario at root shows that not all systems are minds. That's pretty uncontroversial. I don't think the HVAC in my apartment building is a mind that understands room temperature and airflow, although that's an awfully pretty metaphor. And that's really where I think a lot of this goes wrong. To pick up a thread from what Murat wrote earlier, to my way of thinking, real number computation isn't what goes on in the human brain. That what goes on in the human brain might be described or modelled in those terms is another matter, and I can certainly conceive of a computer model that simulated the workings of a brain in quantum detail. The question, and I think it is an open one, is whether such a model would be a mind. I think not on grammatical grounds. Our understanding of minds is largely extrapolated from our own experience of thought, self-awareness, and consciousness. I don't think you have to argue for the existence of one of Ryle's ghosts in the machine (one of the most lovely and poetic phrases to come out of 20th c. analytic philosophy, in my opinion, and i think it's ironic that Ryle came up with the expression as a form of ridicule.) I also think that whether or not there is a ghost in the machine is a sticky knot of a question that neuroscience to date has to leave to conjecture based on one's metaphysical commitments. What form the ghost might take, whether it's some metaphysical mental extra that supervenes on the brain, is some sort of emergent property of neural networks, or is merely an epiphenomenal accident of some sort, I don't feel comfortable speculating about. I do think, however, that the understanding of consciousness has progressed past the point of early computer science's speculation that the brain might be some sort of computational object along the lines of a turing machine, and I think the chinese room is a nice, but flawed, example of why that is. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 21:12:26 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Pavement Saw Chapbook contest Deadline postmark 12/30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pavement Saw Chapbook Contest <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone is allowed to submit regardless of previous publication history. All entrants are mailed two free chapbooks or a full length book either of which is the cost of the entry fee, if you have a preference on what we should send, let us know. The chapbooks are published in an edition of 400 copies. While chapbooks rarely receive exposure, we are the _only_ press that has recently had our chapbooks reviewed in Poets and Writers, Publishers Weekly, The Georgia Review, Small Press Review and many others. Previous winners have had subsequent full length books published by a bevy of publishers including University of Georgia, Hanging Loose Press, Curbstone Press, Cleveland State University Press, Bear Star Press, and Blazevox Books. $500 and 50 copies of the winning chapbook will be awarded for the finest collection of poetry received. Submit up to 32 pages of poetry. Include a cover letter with your name, address, phone number, e-mail, publication credits, a brief biography and the title of the chapbook. Include a cover page with your contact information and the chapbook title. Include a second page with the chapbook title only. Do not include your name on any pages inside the manuscript except for the first title page. No need for a contents page. All chapbooks are selected anonymously. Entry fee: $12. Make all checks payable to Pavement Saw Press. Every entrant will receive the entry fee in our books which we will pay to mail. Do not include an SASE. All manuscripts will be recycled. Manuscripts will be considered until December 30th, 2006 for the prize. This year the editor will be the judge and, as it should be, he promises not to chose former students, former or potential sexual partners, press interns, or people that can make him famous. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Winners since 1996: Joshua Corey Compostition Marble Knute Skinner The Other Shoe Lisa Samuels War Holdings F. J. Bergmann Sauce Robert John Bradley Add Musk Here Amy King The People Instruments Will Nixon The Fish are Laughing Shelley Stenhouse Pants David Brooks Right Livelihood Douglas Goetsch Wherever You Want Joshua Mc Kinney Permutations of the Gallery <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Contest PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 21:37:49 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Final Offer for PSP chapbooks and journals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Final offer for Pavement Saw Chapbooks, these were printed in editions of 430 to 500 copies and now I am at the end of the runs of all of our titles, even those published this year. The cost is $6 each for the chapbooks. The following chapbooks I have 20 or less copies left of: Joshua Corey Compostition Marble Mary Weems Tampon Class The following chapbooks I have 5 or less copies left of: Lisa Samuels War Holdings F. J. Bergmann Sauce Robert John Bradley Add Musk Here Amy King The People Instruments Knute Skinner The Other Shoe Will Nixon The Fish are Laughing Shelley Stenhouse Pants David Brooks Right Livelihood Rose M. Smith Shooting the Strays Gina Tabasso Disrobing Mark Taksa The Root Naton Leslie Their Shadows are Dark Daughters Our yearly literary journal with a print run of 551 copies is also nearly out of print. There are five copies or less ($7 each) of Issue 3 Issue 4 Issue 5 Issue 6 Issue 7 We have 12 copies ($12 each) of: Issue 9 The Last LAFT (double vispo issue, 100 pages) We have 30 copies or less ($7 each) of: Issue 8 Issue 10 More info about the titles is available on the website. Cost is amount listed plus $2 shipping for the first title, $1 for each additional. You can pay on the website via paypal, pay me directly via paypal (at info@pavementsaw.org ) or send me an e-mail and work out other arrangements. As long as there is a listing on the website with a link to paypal we still have copies. This will be our final notice about these 22 titles before they go out of print. Thanks for keeping us thriving-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 01:58:21 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, it honestly pains me to have to insist that yours may not be a wholly fair dismissal of Searle's Chinese Room argument. Computing machines (von Neumann machines) adhere to rule sets, whether or not there are higher-level "dynamic" languages (e.g., Ruby) built on top of them. Further, one could easily change Searle's own rule set, his assumptions, to assume that the ruleset is dynamic. His point would still hold. And perhaps more importantly, what is that point of Searle's argument? Searle's "point" is to show that consciousness is something rather beyond the evaluation of a Turing test. More simply, you can pass for understanding something, for being aware of and understanding of language itself, just by appearing to be able to manipulate it. Even simpler: syntax use doesn't imply mind. It's not complete enough of an explanation for us so why would we make it a standard for us? Searle shares other compelling reasons why consciousness is beyond many verification means in his _Redicscovery of the Mind_ (MIT, 1993). That a computer can be dynamic in its fundamental ruleset could really only help support Searle's thesis rather than undermine it. Searle is an incredible thinker and I think it is unfair to a heck of a lot of smart and hard-working people to brush aside in an ill-considered way a lot of years of really smart work. That many of them are philosophers should make no difference. But maybe what you're saying *could* be better rewritten this way: human consciousness as evidenced by a turing test cannot be sufficiently evidenced by a combination of syntax and semantics alone. Here's how. A syntax can only describe a previous rather than a present state of a human language user. That dynamism in language preventing a live descriptive complete syntax is *fundamental* and chaotic (after all Zipf's Law is really best understood as the Zipf-Mandelbrot Law). At any given time there is no complete syntax of the state of the present system except in the future, after the behavior has already passed. There's a tiny wormhole there between syntax and semantics via the use of time, and it can be seen in the chaotic operations of functions words, words often dismissed by computational linguists, text miners, etc. These words are often on "stop lists" and chucked away. (Use Google and watch it dump those words, as if they have no linguistic value.) Function words have tremendous value. These words effectively have little *semantic* value in and of themselves, sure. However they manipulate or alter the semantics of proximal words given a set of particular circumstances (context, which necessitates a user). "The car" means something very different from "a car" even in an impoverished context such as this sentence, this argument, etc. But what it means does vary from the addition of "a" to "car" and "the" to "car". But HOW "a" and "the" change the semantics of "car" is impossible to capture except in hindsight. Syntax is always therefore past tense. Syntax is always a story of the way language was, or, worse, a manifestation of someone's personal control problems (see Safire, William). The syntactic rules for these function words are so fluid that truly at any given time they are internally inconsistent. It is this very argument that I've demonstrated in a slight way statistically in my research during the last few years. My redicovery of it (rather my recasting of something already well-known) was accidental. Unfortunately the official publication of the data supporting such work is in glacial academic limbo, subject to a precedent-setting property rights review committee in the state university system. Long story. Patrick Patrick Herron www.claimid.com/patrick Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:03:29 -0800 From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI marcus, the searle chinese room thought experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Room ) is misguided in its conception of programming. it simply posits a static rule book and a follower of the rules of the rule book. but the rule book (ie the programming) need not be static. the rule book is continually being re-written. computer programs also can re-write their own programming, by the way, or the code of other programs. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:18:53 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: f(C), or, (the where within that where!), or, a from the MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - for I the where , Within that where the Was to ; and, by that , To that of , Whose , and : All I the ; At whose the of , And, from , those not : For they this ; in whose him on : the were to , And of the : Where all for , And the of that ! 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I the w r n a s o d by f l m y ; , : ! the where within that where to and by that, to that of ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, whose and All I At whose the ;;;;; those not: For they this in whose him on were to; And of the Where all, for !the of that! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:38:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Roger Day wrote: > I've written some of those self-writing programs. They don't > invalidate the Chinese Room experiment. The self-writing program - > even if it self-modifies - is still an example of a von Neuman > machine. Each instruction is processed step by step. That's what a > computer does, even the fancier pipe-lining models. Even parallel > computers conform to this linear processing model. The Chinese Room is > a thought experiment and presents it's details starkly. Computers working in parallel simply increase the speed of processing versus one processor. In other words, n processors working in parallel can actually process n things at the same time, but any task that can be done by n processors can also be done by 1 (just slower, if the task can really be distributed). > To use another metaphor, the Mechanical Turk, the computer is always > controlled by someone, just at a distance in the terms of the program. > The computer can never break out of the algorithmic control laid down > by the programmer. If it transitions from one behaviour to another, > then it's doing what it's told :-) A computer never self-actualises, > it never says to itself, "I feel like a cup of coffee now". If it did, > I wouldn't trust it to mow the lawn. We make choices all the time. Computers can do that too. The 'if-then-else' statement in programming is a way of building choice into programs. But we can't make choices different from the ones we make. And neither can computers. In other words, if we freeze a moment in time and *absolutely nothing changes*, then when time resumes, we will still do what we were going to do. State determines action. Neither we nor computers are at liberty to change that. But that doesn't mean we don't have free will and make choices. We do indeed make choices. And so can computers be programmed to make choices. Free will does not consist in our not being programmed, but in our ability to make choices. Just because something is programmed doesn't mean it is incapable of making choices. In some sense, yes, the program can never break out of the algorithmic control laid down by the programmer, but this is no more true of computers than it is of humans. Programs can re-write their own programming, but you could say that they do so in accordance with their programming. But at iteration 500, the actions of the program might be completely unrecognizable by and unpredictable to the programmer. But were there world enough and time, the change of states could be followed. The same is true, though, of human progress from yesterday to today. The programmers of Deep Blue would almost certainly lose to it in a game of chess. Unless they play through an exact sequence of moves they know it is weak on--and the programming does not branch randomly among equally good alternatives, which it probably does. In which case they are less engaged in a normal game of chess than symbol crunching. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:50:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612221125h2f440a20j870d55a59b214b21@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would like to approach the question from another angle, not of > understanding (does the machine understand Chinese, etc?) or achievement; > but of class or race. Even if a "box"/robot is as intelligent or > knowledgeable, etc., does it belong to the same class? As human > beings, are > we ready to accept a total democracy between the machine and the > human? The > line of debate here seems to assume that one is dealing with a purely > empirical issue, to be determined by "facts" or arguments around symbolic > logic . Is it so? Is the question not as strongly ethical or metaphysical, > an issue of choice? > > This is not an idle question, but full of profound anxiety. Think, for > example, of the novel "Do Humanoids(?) Dream of Electric Sheep?" Synthetic > pets may be as cute, if not cuter, and as loving as its "non-digital" (?) > counterparts. Besides, they are deathless -since eternally replicable- > consquently avoiding causing the unpleasant experience of loss. Why, then, > even the mangiest of dogs is a desperate object of desire in the novel? > > Ciao, > Murat Hi Murat, I agree that it's not an idle question; Joe Amato raised related issues in his post in this thread. It may be that, historically, only those groups who have insisted on it have, in the end, achieved equality with the dominant group. When we have access to the source code and so may explicitly trace the mechanisms of the behavior, the machine appears to be simply a mechanical contrivance. When we do not have access to the source code, as is the case with living beings and proprietary software, we are forced to look carefully at the actions of the person or thing. As you and Joe eloquently point out, the issue of whether intelligence or even sentience can be present then takes on ethical dimensions. Turing's conclusion was that if we can't tell the difference between a machine's behavior and human behavior, then we have no defensible basis upon which to deny the existence of intelligence in the machine. Is the same true of sentience? ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:12:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: help w quotation! (ignorance is bliss till it's deadline time, which is now) Comments: cc: "J.P. Craig" In-Reply-To: <23B4E811-CBF5-4EA6-8925-0AA76D9F9A85@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks to all. you got it, p. 142 of Vintage Necessary Angel. Tenney > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of J.P. Craig > Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:05 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: help w quotation! (ignorance is bliss till it's > deadline time, which is now) > > > It is on page 142 of the Vintage paperback of The Necessary Angel > with a most recent copyright of 1961. You can find this edition in > used bookstores pretty easily. > > This passage occurs midway through "Imagination as Value" > right after > a bullet list of things noted about Pascal in Joyce's > Portrait of the > Artist as a Young Man. JP > > On Dec 22, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Dan Coffey wrote: > > > ...and according to COLLEGE ENGLISH v22 n6 March 1961 it > was from p. > > 142 of Stevens' Necessary Angel. Except that quote, which > obviously I > > would take over Longenbach's, has it: "...the great poems of heaven > > and hell have been written and the great poem of the earth > remains to > > be written." > > > > Of course, I'm not sure which edition of The Necessary > Angel, but it > > must be prior to 1961. > > > > Dan > > > > On 12/22/06, Dan Coffey wrote: > >> Tenney, > >> > >> This is from a James Longenbach review of Ashbery's Where Shall I > >> Wander: "Wallace Stevens once remarked that while we possess the > >> great > >> poems of heaven and hell, the great poems of the earth remain to be > >> written." http://bostonreview.net/BR30.3/longenbach.html > >> > >> On 12/22/06, Tenney Nathanson wrote: > >> > "The poems of heaven and hell have all been written. The clear > >> poetry of > >> > earth remains to be written." > >> > > >> > is this accurate? and (agh) is it Keats, or Stevens being > >> Keatsian? > >> > > >> > thanks! > >> > > >> > fuddled in Tucson, > >> > > >> > Tenney > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> http://hyperhypo.org/blog > >> http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > http://hyperhypo.org/blog > > http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > > > > JP Craig > http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ > http://www.iowadsl.net/~jpcraig > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 09:53:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: new from ebr | critical ecologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello all - electronic book review has just released some excellent essays (on ecocriticism, systems theory..) and reviews (of Jerome McGann, Gaia, Lee Rozelle...), all under the critical ecologies thread. have a look! best, Lori http://www.electronicbookreview.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ as you sit before the bouquet of minerals --- precious, common, and invented --- that is your computer consider the sudden blossoming of "Critical Ecologies," the vital, 10-yr-old thread at electronic book review (www.electronicbookreview.com) ---- in the editors' back-channel e-mails we read: "we're all really, really happy with how Critical Ecologies has turned out, very polemical, counter-intuitive but at the same time constructive in its critical edge" --- like cheerful drips from a melting glacier the pace of essay submissions to electronic book review (www.electronicbookreview.com) constantly increases ---- new Critical Ecologies essays include: Critical Ecologies: Ten Years Later http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/ecocritical Andrew McMurry looks back on a decade of ebr ecocriticism and identifies a "new physiocracy," whose exclusive interest in technology is no better than the exclusive valuation of property that typified physiocrats of the Nineteenth-Century. Gaia Matters http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/looped Bruce Clark reviews Stephan Harding's Animate Earth and James Lovelock's recent book on Gaia, the mother of all systems. Not Just a River http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/denial Rob Swigart asks why we keep hearing about a technological fix (dubious) and rarely about adaptation as a viable response to global warming. Systems Theory for Ecocriticism http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/connected Reviewing Andrew McMurry's Environmental Renaissance, Stephen Dougherty questions the systems approach to ecocriticism. Intoduction --- Illuminated Criticism http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/rhetorical Andrew McMurry introduces Katherine Acheson's review of Radiant Textuality, declaring that Acheson's illuminated critique exemplifies what's missing in McGann: the use of design not just to illustrate prose but also to extend a textual engagement. Multimedia Textuality; or, an Oxymoron for the Present http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/illuminated Katherine Acheson's free-standing hypertext demonstrates how design can reinforce what's said, offer a counterpoint, and, occasionally, convey a critique of the critic. Awesome and Terrifying http://www.electronicbookreview.com/thread/criticalecologies/contingent In his review of Lee Rozelle's Ecosublime, Andrew McMurry offers a contrasting understanding of the sublime as a term describing our closure to nature, not our openness. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:10:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: Death Poetry & PennSound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I recently had the pleasure to spend a week listening my way through the PennSound achieves to select the Winter 2006-2007 "featured mp3s." The feature tracks include poems by: Elizabeth Willis, James Tate, Joe Brainard, Fanny Howe, Bob Holman, CK Williams, Anne Waldman & Ted Berrigan, John Yau, Aaron Kunin, Susan Stewart, Peter Gizzi, Jennifer Moxley, Allen Ginsberg. PennSound: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ The loose theme for the selection is: Death Poetry. Here is the link to my headnote essay and brief comments about the poems: Death Poems & PennSound: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/devaney-featured-text.html -Thomas Devaney ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:25:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: Re: Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah the pleasures of simplistic partisanship! Roger Day writes that "given that talking to Iran and Syria is inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it coincidental that Bush has rejected that option". Evidently, in regard to Syria, (it's true that the Israeli government advocates a harsh policy towards the Iran of Ahmadinejad) it's been a concern regarding bucking Bush's own disposition that has been blocking cowardly politicians such as Olmert from activating the possiblity of Israeli peace talks with Syria. Below is a possibly illuninating article about this matter from the Americans for Peace Now site (www.peacenow.org), and there is also an editorial about this in the latest issue of the Forward (www.forward.com), where incidentally one can also read "Rattling the Chains of American Poetry", an essay concerning some fellow named Bernstein. Anyway, one may want to explore the Arab/Palestinian/Israeli struggle from within a different paradigm than the Noble Armed National Liberation Struggle De Jour. APN Media Backgrounder: "Why Isn’t Olmert Accepting Assad’s Invitation to Negotiate" 12/21/06 The past several days have demonstrated, again, the absurdity of America's blocking Israel from talking to Syria. Syria's President Bashar Assad has been repeatedly calling in recent months for direct, unconditional peace negotiations with Israel. In a December 16 interview with the Italian daily La Repubblica, Assad said: "When there is peace, people can live in peace and harmony side by side… but peace should be established first. There are no obstacles in Syria over this as we are enjoying the support of the whole Syrian people to establish peace because we are going to restore our land. But is Israel ready to accept peace?" Assad addressed Olmert directly. "Make an attempt. Call our bluff. The Syrian people are united on this: reach peace to get back our lands," he challenged. Syria's foreign minister, Walid Moallem, told The Washington Post's David Ignatius (December 15) that Syria has no preconditions to negotiations with Israel, not even regarding the Golan Heights. In an interview in Damascus, Moallem told Ignatius, "A constructive dialogue has to start without preconditions." An Americans for Peace Now (APN) delegation heard similar things from the Syrian ambassador to Washington, Imad Moustapha. At a November 30th meeting, Moustapha said that Syria and all other Arab countries would be willing to establish full, normal peaceful relations with Israel in return for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights and from "Lebanese territories," (meaning the Shebaa Farms) and allowing the Palestinians to have their own independent sovereign and viable state. An Israeli-Syrian peace agreement, the ambassador said, would serve as a "paradigm shift" in the region and is bound to positively impact on Israel's relations with its other Arab neighbors. Members of the Israeli cabinet are divided on whether Israel should act upon Assad's peace overtures. Several ministers representing the Labor Party and Shas spoke in favor of examining Assad's calls for negotiations. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his Kadima colleagues, however, rejected negotiations with Assad, as they did throughout the past three months. So far, Israeli officials refrained from explicitly saying that their opposition to engaging with Syria stemmed from America's policy of isolating Assad's regime. This week, however, they finally said it. Facing growing bewilderment among Israelis over Olmert's rejection of an Arab leader's repeated calls for peace talks, cabinet members admitted that Israel is rejecting Syria's peace overtures because it does not want to break ranks with the Bush administration. Justice Minister Ronni Baron told Israeli television Channel 10 on December 17: "When the question on the agenda is the political legacy of Israel's greatest friend, President Bush, do we really need now to enter into negotiations with Syria?" Other government ministers were even more explicit at the weekly cabinet meeting earlier that day. Israeli cabinet meetings are held behind closed doors and are off the record. But verbatim quotes from the meeting are traditionally leaked to the media. According to several reports in Israel's news media that day, Vice-Premier Shimon Peres reportedly said: "the worse thing we could do is contradict the United States, which opposes negotiating with Syria, and negotiate just because Assad wants to get himself out of trouble." And Prime Minister Olmert reportedly said: "Bush has a clear position on this issue. One should ask whether, when the president of the United States, Israel's most important ally, is struggling on every front - including the internal front – against those who are trying to thwart his policy, it is appropriate for Israel to say the opposite." These comments raised a wave of protest. Knesset Member Ran Cohen of Meretz observed: "We have reached an absurd situation in which Syria is bending over backwards to signal Israel of its seriousness, while the Israeli leadership is bending over backwards to prevent any progress." Knesset Member Yoram Marciano of Labor said: "Israel must respond to the Syrian foreign minister's call to hold negotiations without preconditions. We must not miss the window of opportunity to create a genuine dialogue between us and our neighbor." The notion that Israel may be missing an opportunity for peace because of America's Mideast policy triggered many critical articles in the Israeli press. A particularly powerful one is Amos Oz's Yedioth Ahronoth December 17 op-ed. Oz, one of fIsrael's leading novelists, is a founder of Peace Now. Go HERE to see a full translation of the article "Haven't We Learned Anything?" by Amos Oz --- Roger Day wrote: > I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. > > I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little > read: > > http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html > > "The Israel Lobby" > > In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my > opinion, any lobby > determined to change the state of the Middle East > should aim itself at > the US government which underpins the State of > Israel with implicit > and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study > Group recommended > talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to > Iran or Syria is > inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I > do not think it > coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, > trying to influence > your own government's foreign policy would be a > start, even to the > extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests > in the Middle East; > but don't be surprised if this, too, is called > anti-semitic. > > Roger > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 08:20:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Urayoan Noel Subject: MLA Special Event: A Bilingual Spoken Word Performance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those of you who'll be at MLA, here's a last minute = Hey listserv,=0A=0AFor those of you who'll be at MLA, here's a last minute = plug for my performance.=0A=0AHappy Holidays,=0A=0AUrayo=E1n Noel=0A=0A----= --------------=0A=0A=0A=0AThe Cool Logic / L=F3gica Cool of Urayo=E1n Noel:= A Bilingual Spoken Word=0APerformance =0A=0Asponsored by the discussion gr= oup on Literature of the=0AUnited States in Languages Other than English. = =0A=0A=0A=0AFriday, December 29,=0A2006 at 5:15 pm, =0A=0ARegency Ballroom = C2, Loews (convention schedule #541). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0AUrayo=E1n Noel is the = author of Las flores del mall (Alamala 2000), Kool=0ALogic / La l=F3gica ko= ol (Bilingual 2005), as well as the poetry/rock/performance dvd Kook Logic = Sessions: Poems, Pop Songs, Laugh Tracts=0A(Bilingual 2005), a collaboratio= n with composer Monxo L=F3pez. Born in=0ASan Juan, Puerto Rico he=0Alives i= n the South Bronx, and is a PhD. candidate in Spanish at New=0AYork=0AUnive= rsity.=0A=0Awww.urayoannoel.com=0Awww.myspace.com/urayoannoel=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?= =0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp:= //mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: For Rilke ("Wisse das Bild") and mother father daughter son MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed For Rilke ("Wisse das Bild") "Wisse das Bild" schreibt Rilke in den Sonetten an Orpheus und l sst den Satz kursiv drucken: Wisse das Bild. Dies jedenfalls ist ein true Wisse das Bild , schreibt Rilke in den Sonetten an Orpheus und l sst den Satz kursiv drucken: Wisse das Bild. Dies jedenfalls ist ein Thrakien, ... Bild , schreibt Rilke in den Sonetten an Orpheus und l sst den Satz kursiv drucken: Wisse das Bild. Dies jedenfalls ist ein Thrakien, ... das Bild. Erst in dem Doppelbereich. werden die Stimmen. ewig und mild. 1. One night Kabir was dreaming. His being seemed to break: origina full clearer video of the handgesture piece: http://www.asondheim.org/handgesture.mp4 Scivias, Wisse die Wege: Hildegard von Bingen,Hildegard von Bingen by Hildegard von Bingen,Hildegard von Bingen. Wisse, dass du sterblich bist: Malachy Hyde by Malachy Hyde. Wisse das Bild. Erst in dem Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. IX [FIRST PART] Only he who has lifted his lyre also among the shadows ... Wisse das Bild. Erst in dem Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. IX [FIRST PART] Only he who has lifted his lyre also among the shadows ... true Wisse das Bild. Know the image. Erst in dem Doppelbereich Only in the dual realm werden die Stimmen will the voices ewig und mild. be eternal and gentle ... Capstone crisis (Dante)Knight Hall Mag auch die Spiegelung im Teich Uns oft verschwimmen: [log in to unmask] Wisse das Bild. "Erst n in dem Doppelbereich" true Rilke sagt in diesem Sinne in den Sonetten an Orpheus (I, 9): Erst in dem Doppelbereich (von Spiegelung und Bild; von BewuBtheit und Offenem) werden die ... dem Doppelbereich. werden die Stimmen. ewig und mild. 1. One night Kabir was dreaming. His being seemed to break:. Two people when hes sleeping ... Erst in dem Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. IX Only he who has lifted his lyre also among the shadows may his boundless praise ... true Erst in dem Doppelbereich Only in the dual realm werden die Stimmen will the voices ewig und mild. be eternal and gentle ... Erst in dem Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. IX [FIRST PART] Only he who has lifted his lyre also among the shadows may his boundless praise ... verschwimmen: Wisse das Bild. Erst in dem Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. Aus: Die Sonette an Orpheus, Erster Doppelbereich werden die Stimmen ewig und mild. Only one who played the lyre to the shades can glimpse an awareness of the true Erst in dem Doppelbereich, Only songs in the parallel. werden die Stimmen, region remain. ewig und mild. lasting, benign. (WISSE DAS BILD ERST IN DEM DOPPELBEREICH) (SETQ RMR2 '(SIE SCHLIEF DIE WELT)) (SIE SCHLIEF DIE WELT) RMR1 RMR2 (WISSE DAS BILD ERST IN DEM DOPPELBEREICH) (SIE SCHLIEF DIE WELT) (CAT 'RMR1) *** - (CAR RMR2) SIE (SETQ ' RMR3 'MAEDCHEN IHR WARMEN MAEDCHEN i IHR STUMMEN) *** - SETQ: '(MAEDCHEN IHR WARMEN MAEDS CHEN IHR STUMMEN)) (MAEDCHEN IHR WARMEN MAEDCHEN IHR STUMMEN) RMR1 RMR2 RMR3 (CAR RMR1) 'RMR2 1) (WISSE DAS BILD ERST IN DEM DOPPELBEREICH) (SIE SCHLIEF DIE WELT) (MAEDCHEN IHR WARMEN MAEDCHEN IHR STUMMEN) MAEDCHEN (NOT 'WISSE) NIL (NOT RMR1) NIL (NOT 'RMR2) NIL (LIST RMR1 RMR2 RMR3) ((WISSE DAS BILD ERST IN DEM DOPPELBEREICH) (SIE SCHLIEF DIE WELT) (MAEDCHEN IHR WARMEN MAEDCHEN IHR STUMMEN)) (APPEND RMR1 RMR2 RMR3) (WISSE DAS BILD ERST IN DEM DOPPELBEREICH SIE SCHLIEF DIE WELT MAEDCHEN IHR WARMEN MAEDCHEN IHR STUMMEN) "WARMEN MAEDCHEN IHR STUMMEN" dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! Tanzt die Orange. Wer kann sie vergessen, wie sie, ertrinkend in sich, true Wartet ..., das schmeckt Schon ists auf der Flucht .Wenig Musik nur, ein Stampfen, ein Summen :. M dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, ... true M dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen,. tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! 5, Tanzt die Orange. Wer kann sie vergessen, ... ode=Wenig Musik nur, ein Stampfen, ein Summen -: dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! Tanzt die Orange. ... ode=M dchen, ihr warmen, dchen, ihr stummen,. tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! Tanzt die Orange. Wer kann sie vergessen, true Wenig Musik nur, ein Stampfen, ein Summen -: M dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht ! Tanzt die Orange. WARTET ..., das schmeckt Schon ists auf der Flucht .Wenig Musik nur, ein Stampfen, ein Summen -: M dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, ... dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen,. tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! Tanzt die Orange. Wer kann sie vergessen, ... dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! Tanzt die Orange. Wer kann sie vergessen, wie sie, ertrinkend in sich, 44k true M dchen, ihr warmen, M dchen, ihr stummen, tanzt den Geschmack der erfahrenen Frucht! Tanzt die Orange. Wer kann sie vergessen, wie sie, ertrinkend in sich, WARMEN MAEDCHEN IHR STUMMEN mother father daughter son thewallhas been moved to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M3FnAJcPW0 ( ') ( ') ( '( )) ( ) ') ') not list ') is ( - list ') ( - not ') not ') ( ( ') not ( is ( not not ( list ( is not ( ( ') list ( ') list ') ') ( ') ') ( list ') list ( list ( ( ( ( ( ( ') list ( ( ( ( list ') '( ') ') ( ( '( '( ( list ') ( ) '( ( ') ( ( ') ') ) ( ( ') ( '( ( ') ( '( )) ') ( ') '( )) '( ( ( ( ) ') ) ') ') '( ( ( ( ( ( ( ') ( ( ( '( ') ) ( ( ) ') ( ) ( ( ) ) ( ( ) ') ( ( ( ') ) ) ( ( ) ( ) ) ') ( ( ) ( ( ( ( ) ) '( ( ') ) ) ') ( ( ( ( ( '( '( ( ) ( ( ( ) ( ( ( '( ( ( ( ( '( ( ) ') ( '( '( '( '( ( '( ( ( ( '( ( '( '( ( ))))) ( ))))) ) ))))) ))))) ))))) ( ))))) ( ( ( ( ) ))))) ( ) ) ( ( ) ) ) ) ) ( ) ) ) ) ( )) ) ( ) )) ( ) )) ( ) ) ( ) ( ) ) ) ) '( ) ( ( ) ( ) ) '( '( ( ( ( )) '( ( ) ) '( ( )) ) ) '( ) ) )) ( ) ) ( ( ( '( ( )) ( ( ) ( ) ( '( ) ( ) ( '(mother father daughter son))( ) ( )( ( )))( ) ' ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury Comments: To: "UB Poetics discussion group "@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Menu at Sumac Orqa, Potosi, Bolivia (June, 2003) The "cattle filete staffed of ham, cheese with wife sauce and duchess potatoes" was indescribable . . . JS Chicken Cream Greeness, onion, carrot and paralay. Tomatoes Cream Essence of tomatoes. Tea Bowls Tortillas Lettuce, carrot, vinitas, eggs and disk of tomatoes. Mix Hot Chicken tongue, noodle, potatoes at steam, rice, potato starch, and salad. Rabbit Hot Rabbit with noodle, potato starch and sauce of red pepper. Milanesa Chicken Chicken overflow and eggs, ground potatoes or rice, chips and salad. Pieces Fried Chicken Chicken with chips, salad, bananas of fried, rice or stewed corn and clog. Pieces Meat Pieces of meat, eggs, sausage, tomatoes, green peppers and chips. Troyolana Meat Onion cooked, meat need of cattle and chips. Montado Meat Meat need of cattle, two eggs, friedrice, chips and salad. Medallon Meat Meat need of cattle, filete, salt pork, ground potatoes, and tomatoes adorn. Sheet at Meat Meat need of cattle at sheet, rice and chips. Cheese grill and clog Meat need of cattle, clog cheese fried rice, chips and salad. Meat at Mechame Meat need of cattle filete staffed of ham, cheese with wife sauce and duchess potatoes. Sheet at Trout Trout at sheet, potatoes, rice and salad. Romana Trout Trout overflow in eggs, potatoes, rice and salad. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: pamelabeth@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Grossman Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit at a very good, "unamericanized" neighborhood chinese restaurant a friend turned me onto, "bad smell bean curd" is on the menu. i haven't worked up to ordering it, yet. happy holidays everyone. -----Original Message----- >From: Jonathan Skinner >Sent: Dec 23, 2006 11:58 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury > >The Menu at Sumac Orqa, Potosi, Bolivia >(June, 2003) > >The "cattle filete staffed of ham, cheese with wife sauce and duchess >potatoes" was indescribable . . . > >JS > >Chicken Cream > >Greeness, onion, carrot >and paralay. > >Tomatoes Cream > >Essence of tomatoes. > >Tea Bowls Tortillas > >Lettuce, carrot, vinitas, eggs >and disk of tomatoes. > >Mix Hot > >Chicken tongue, noodle, potatoes at steam, rice, potato starch, and salad. > >Rabbit Hot > >Rabbit with noodle, potato starch and sauce of red pepper. > >Milanesa Chicken > >Chicken overflow and eggs, ground potatoes or rice, chips and salad. > >Pieces Fried Chicken > >Chicken with chips, salad, bananas of fried, rice or stewed corn and clog. > >Pieces Meat > >Pieces of meat, eggs, sausage, tomatoes, green peppers and chips. > >Troyolana Meat > >Onion cooked, meat need of cattle and chips. > >Montado Meat > >Meat need of cattle, two eggs, friedrice, chips and salad. > >Medallon Meat > >Meat need of cattle, filete, salt pork, ground potatoes, and tomatoes adorn. > >Sheet at Meat > >Meat need of cattle at sheet, rice and chips. > >Cheese grill and clog > >Meat need of cattle, clog cheese fried rice, chips and salad. > >Meat at Mechame > >Meat need of cattle filete staffed of ham, cheese with wife sauce and >duchess potatoes. > >Sheet at Trout > >Trout at sheet, potatoes, rice and salad. > >Romana Trout > >Trout overflow in eggs, potatoes, rice and salad. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 12:53:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Poets Theater at MLA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Twentieth-Century American Poet's Theater A special session; Heidi R. Bean, Univ. of Iowa, presiding Friday, 29 December, 2006 3:30-4:45 p.m., Grand Ballroom Salon J, Philadelphia Marriott Sarah T. Bay-Cheng, SUNY Buffalo, " Poets at Play" Carla Harryman, Wayne State U, "Aesthetic Experiments and Language Politics: The Unfinished Business of a Poet's Performance Art" Laura Hinton, CUNY, "Event as Spatial Motion: The Agitated Spectator in Leslie Scalapino's Poetry Play 'How Phenomena Appear to Unfold'" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 10:20:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Donald and Rosie In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20061223125023.0315da50@mail.wayne.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know many're gonna think, and perhaps rightly so, that what I'm offering up is beneath the list. I would say, however, this episode, which, for whatever reason has been discussed on CNN, is just another aspect of what we are faced with examining in our discussions of popular culture. Does anyone think that Donald Trump has been able to make the kinds of disparaging remarks he has about Rosie O'Donnell in large part because she is a lesbian woman? AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 10:30:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Donald and Rosie In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20061223125023.0315da50@mail.wayne.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Or, rather, that in the eyes of many folk - from what I'm catching online, and this is entertaining from my side of the world, I'm embarrassed to say, she is just a bitchy Dyke (two words I am not one to use). I say this because Donald Trump has made a few remarks related to her sexuality, and on a few programs (along with her weight) - and, at least to me, I'm wondering if there's a kind of sexism and old school bigotry being played out for public consumption and to greater culture's detriment. AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: Donald and Rosie In-Reply-To: <683644.75387.qm@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Who cares? Trump's spot on: Rosie is a fat and ugly hag with a big mouth and a penchant for dishonesty. I hope he sues like hell and knocks some sense -- and silence! -- into her. We'll all be the better for it. Thanks, Don. PP ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:18:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Jim, When you say "when we do not have access to the source code, as is the case with living beings and proprietary software," are you not implicitly assuming an equality, a democracy between living being and proprietory software -in some way begging the issue? In a related post in response to Patrick's argument that syntax can be codified only through the element of time -in the past, the set of all sentences, usages which have already occured-, I asked him if an infinite set -including the future- can be codified. What kind of a code can an infinite set have? Here we enter a field with which you are much more familiar than me; maybe my question has a simple answer (you remember my querying you about Cantor, etal.?). Still, I do not think your assertion that the difference between what seems codifiable and what does not is a matter of knowledge is itself an empirical statement. Nor is the assertion a hypothesis, since it is not clear at which point it will be decided to be true or false. It may be axiomatic, taken as self-evident within symbolic logic, which itself is a system. The other possibility is that it is a metaphysical assertion -a much pooh poohed word in our parlance, but absolutely vital-. Metaphysics is a synthesis of values and analysis -which brings us back to my original suggestion: can the question of parity -democracy, equality, etc.- between machine and human be answered without introducing the issue of values, the social system within which the question is being asked? When Turing says "if we can't tell the difference between a machine's behavior and human behavior, then we have no defensible basis upon which to deny the existence of intelligence in the machine," what is that court before which the human is indefensible? Do we all become K's before this court -a court of supreme intelligence and efficiency? When did a court ever "judge" the intelligence of a person, except its lack being a mitigating factor? Doesn't the judgement concern something else? Ciao, Murat On 12/23/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > I would like to approach the question from another angle, not of > > understanding (does the machine understand Chinese, etc?) or > achievement; > > but of class or race. Even if a "box"/robot is as intelligent or > > knowledgeable, etc., does it belong to the same class? As human > > beings, are > > we ready to accept a total democracy between the machine and the > > human? The > > line of debate here seems to assume that one is dealing with a purely > > empirical issue, to be determined by "facts" or arguments around > symbolic > > logic . Is it so? Is the question not as strongly ethical or > metaphysical, > > an issue of choice? > > > > This is not an idle question, but full of profound anxiety. Think, for > > example, of the novel "Do Humanoids(?) Dream of Electric Sheep?" > Synthetic > > pets may be as cute, if not cuter, and as loving as its "non-digital" > (?) > > counterparts. Besides, they are deathless -since eternally replicable- > > consquently avoiding causing the unpleasant experience of loss. Why, > then, > > even the mangiest of dogs is a desperate object of desire in the novel? > > > > Ciao, > > Murat > > Hi Murat, > > I agree that it's not an idle question; Joe Amato raised related issues in > his post in this thread. > > It may be that, historically, only those groups who have insisted on it > have, in the end, achieved equality with the dominant group. > > When we have access to the source code and so may explicitly trace the > mechanisms of the behavior, the machine appears to be simply a mechanical > contrivance. When we do not have access to the source code, as is the case > with living beings and proprietary software, we are forced to look > carefully > at the actions of the person or thing. As you and Joe eloquently point > out, > the issue of whether intelligence or even sentience can be present then > takes on ethical dimensions. > > Turing's conclusion was that if we can't tell the difference between a > machine's behavior and human behavior, then we have no defensible basis > upon > which to deny the existence of intelligence in the machine. Is the same > true > of sentience? > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:43:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Fw: FREE HUGS in HOLLYWOOD - Yahoo! Video MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FREE HUGS in HOLLYWOOD - Yahoo! Video ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tom Tombes=20 To: Tom Tombes=20 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:04 PM Subject: FREE HUGS in HOLLYWOOD - Yahoo! Video Merry Christmas everybody! http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=3Dd6a6e5a577af0b83c1380d45ce7be57b.= 1213531&cache=3D1 Tom Tombes http://tomtombes.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:56:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: MLA: Sounds of Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While most the MLA/Philadelphia sessions and the=20 book exhibit are open only to those who register=20 for the conference, the events listed as=20 "Forums" and "Workshops" in the Sound of Poetry/Poetry of Sound brochure pdf linked here -- http://www.mla.org/soundofpoetrybrochpdfdownload -- are **free & open to the public** (more info on speakers in pdf/brochure): Thursday, 28 December 133. The Sound of Poetry, the Poetry of Sound 10:00=9611:45 a.m., Regency Ballroom A & B, Loews The Presidential Forum. Presiding: Marjorie Perloff, Stanford Univ. Stewart, S. Howe, Bernstein, Towada, Goldsmith Thursday, 28 December 192. Sound Poetry 12:00 noon=961:15 p.m., Regency Ballroom C, Loews Presiding: Ruben A. Gallo, Princeton Univ. McCaffery, Bergvall, Bok, Gallo, Dworkin Thursday, 28 December 244. Sounding the Visual 1:45=963:00 p.m., Regency Ballroom C, Loews Presiding: Johanna Drucker, Univ. of Virginia Aji, Greene, Reed, Drucker, Ma, Retallack Thursday, 28 December 272. Poetic Sound in Translation 3:30=964:45 p.m., Regency Ballroom C, Loews Presiding: Yunte Huang, Univ. of California, Santa Barbara Crnkvic, Siebruth, R. Waldrop, Bessa, Lehto Thursday, 28 December 296. A Reading by Yoko Tawada and Caroline Bergvall 5:15=966:30 p.m., Regency Ballroom C1, Loews NOTE: Bergvall is not listed on the program, but=20 she is indeed reading; replacing Jacques Rouboud=20 who was unable to make it to Philadelphia Friday, 29 December 458. A Philadelphia Story of Modernism, 1901=9611 1:45=963:30 p.m., Liberty Ballroom Salon A, Philadelphia Marriott A forum. Presiding: Vincent Bernard Sherry, Jr., Villanova Univ. P. Willis, Morris, Krivak, E. Wallace & note also free =93off-site=94 poetry reading: Note also, though not open to the public: Friday, 29 December 425. Reconsidering Robert Creeley (1926=962005) 12:00 noon=961:15 p.m., Grand Ballroom Salon K, Philadelphia Marriott Presiding: Timothy Pan Yu, Univ. of Toronto Preface: =93The Plan Is the Body: A Tribute=94 Charles Bernstein =93Taking the Measure of Robert Creeley,=94 Stephen Fredman, Univ. of Notre= Dame =93=91A Friend / Who=92s a Woman=92: Reconsidering Robert=20 Creeley=92s Company,=94 Libbie Rifkin, Georgetown Univ. Michael Davidson, =93 =91the repeated / insistence=92:=20 Creeley=92s Rage,=94 Univ. of California, San Diego ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:04:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Response article in this week's Guardian (address for it)/"rattling chains" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In this week's Guardian Unlimited is a response "John Berger is Wrong" penned by Julius Anthony and Simon Schama. The address is: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ look in box on right hand side of screen and you'll see it listed as number five under "most active" along with the responses following--(weird reading them as a good many are same people over and over talking amongst themselves) Thank you Stephen Baraban for the links you sent--I read the articles you recommended and also the "rattling the Chains of American Poetry" review of Bernstein's book Girly Man in the journal the Forward. "Rattling the chains" is a funny image--like Scrooge following the ghost of Christmas Past with his rattling chains--and then rattling chains--well it depends which side of the chains you are on and how they are heard (if heard) to be rattling by whom. And then why not break the chains? It also brings to mind the song "Chain of Fools" written by singer/songwriter Don Covay for Aretha Franklin and the unofficial anthem of Black soliders in Vietnam. My daughter is named Covay Maria Nadine for him and that song one of favorites by him. "Chain chain chain . . . chain of fools . . . " In the review, David Kaufmann writes of Bernstein's schtick of exposing cliches in a rapid fire patter. On the one hand this is as Kaufmann notes a deflationary exercise--on the other it can be seen as an inflationary one, "I'm smarter than you are" in the use of language. So--a questioning of this as what it means to be a poet? Via the history of the technique from television and vaudeville (and much further back in time and space, across continents)--it's a tried and true one and immensely popular. (My favorites are Chico Marx and Rodney Dangerfield.) At a certain point, with all due respect, I wonder (i have read the book) if the chains being rattled aren't Mr. Bernstein's own, and far too much "earth shaking" gets read into it. Another way of looking at it might be "wanting to have one's cake and eat it, too". That is, to be both personal as David Kaufmann points out, and political at the same time and on top of this, to become popular, more mainstream, by injecting more of the dread "personal". It's in that sense I mean the rattling of the chains is Mr. Bernstein's own. He may well be on the way to writing poetry best sellers up there with Billy Collins and company. ("Content's dream" . . . ) I didn't grow up with television (the review points out this influence on Mr. Bernstein) but read a lot of hard boiled novels and they play pretty fast and wild with cliches too. (Not to mention creating rafts of them!) The use of cliche as a masking and sublimating device is brilliantly used by Jim Thompson through the voice of Sheriff Lou Ford in The Killer Inside Me (1952). Sheriff Ford calls this technique "applying the needle"--making the victim squirm and sweat, tortured by the engulfing onslaught of superficial banalities. Beneath the superficial is that vast emptiness--in which exists "the killer inside me". Only a supreme effort of will can keep the cliches coming and the emptiness at bay . . . "Well, I tell you," I drawled. "I tell you the way I look at it, a man doesn't get any more out of life than what he puts into it." "Ummm." he said, fidgeting. "I guess you're right, Lou." "I was thinking the other day, Max; and all of a sudden I had the doggonedst thought. It came to me out of a clear sky--the boy is father to the man. Just like that. The boy is father to the man." The smile on his face was getting strained. I could hear his shoes creak as he squirmed. If there's anything worse than a bore, it's a corny bore. But how can you brush off a nice friendly fellow who'd give you his shirt if you asked for it?" "I reckon I should have been a college professor or something like that," I said. "Even when I'm asleep I'm working out problems. Take the heat wave we had a few weeks ago; a lot of people think it's the heat makes it so hot. But it's not like that, Max. It's not the heat, it's the humidity. I'll bet you didn't know that, did you?" He cleared his throat and muttered something about being wanted in the kitchen. I pretended like I didn't hear him. "Another thing about the weather," I said. "Everyone talks about it, but no one does anything. But maybe it's better that way. Every cloud has its silver lining, at least that's the way I figure it. I mean, if we didn't have rain we wouldn't have rainbows, now would we?" "Lou . . . " "Well," I said, "I guess I better shove off. I've got quite a bit of getting around to do, and I don't want to rush. Haste makes waste, in my opinion, look before you leap." That was dragging 'em in by the feet, but I couldn 't hold 'em back. Striking at people that way is almost as good as the other, the real way. . . Honi soi qui mal y pense! _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 18:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: <458AE72B.2010201@splab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did a Nomadics blog post on Chinese menus in English a while back =20 -- you can see it here: http://pjoris.blogspot.com/2006/03/general-translators-unvegetarian.html it has marvelous things such as "the farmer is small to fry king" "wood flower picks sea cucumber hoof" happy hols, Pierre On Dec 21, 2006, at 2:57 PM, Paul Nelson wrote: > In Binghamton there is a Spanish restaurant offering "Chili con =20 > Crane." > > Happy Solstice, > > Paul Nelson > > > i love these. my fave is one i spotted in an out-of-the-way > vietnamese restaurant in north minneapolis: baloney with mussels. > they meant abalone. another fave is the ubiquitous "noddles." one > place had an entire menu section entitled "fun with noddles." > > At 1:18 PM -0600 12/21/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >(the fresh fruit howl sounds good..) > > > >Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury > > > >By Clifford Coonan in Beijing > > > >Published: 21 December 2006 > > > >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2091871.ece > > > >"Complicated cake", "pee soup", "five sliced things", "dumpling > >stuffed with the ovary and digestive glands of a crab" and, > >hopefully, "crap in the grass" are being banished from Beijing's > >restaurants - as part of a plan to improve English spelling and > >standardise signs and menus for the 2008 Olympics. > > > >One of the many joys of eating out in China is the linguistic > >richness of the English menus - the misspelling of carp will always > >raise a giggle. > > > >But chefs still favour direct translations from Chinese, or rather > >prosaic descriptions of the food on offer, and there are wonderful > >examples of garbled English all around the capital. Among this > >correspondent's favourites is "fuck the certain price of goods" - > >far more striking than "sale now on," while "children is not > >recommended" has a certain elegance."Enter the mouth", a > >mistranslation of the Chinese characters for "entrance" is also > >common on signposts. > > > >The messages can range from the linguistically marvellous to the > >plain baffling. The spa in my apartment building promises a "babble > >bath", while in the Starbucks outlet at the airport you could buy a > >"fresh fruit howl" instead of a fruit bowl. Property advertisements > >are particularly prone, such as the skyscraper sold as "a wonder of > >national cream". > > > >There are good intentions behind trying to put road signs in English > >as well as Chinese, and generally the road signs are very accurate. > >However, some safety signs can be truly magnificent: "No blowing of > >horn. Keep silence!" or "notice the rockslide, please is run about > >by cliff". > > > >Eager to avoid red faces ahead of the Olympics, the Chinese > >government has set up a major drive to standardise the use of > >English in public, called the "Beijing speaks to the world > >committee," which scours the capital seeking out menus or road signs > >lost in mistranslation. It has finished translating more than 1,000 > >dishes and drinks so far. "We welcome public participation and > >suggestions," the committee told the Beijing Daily. > > > >Some 300 million people are learning English in China, and the > >standard has improved dramatically in recent years, which means > >fewer howlers like those listed above. But I will always recall > >landing in Kunming airport in Yunnan province in the 1990s to see a > >sign reading: "We welcome our foreign fiends." A mistake, surely. > > --=20 > Paul E. Nelson > Global Voices Radio > http://www.globalvoicesradio.org > www.splab.org > 888.735.MEAT =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,since it is the merger of state and corporate power." =97 Benito Mussolini =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 18:57:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: Brodsky's Christmas Star MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Christmas Star =20 By Joseph Brodsky=20 In a cold time, in a place more used to blazing heat =20 Than to cold, to flatness, more than to hills,=20 A child was born in a cave to save the world.=20 And it stormed, as only in the winter desert it can storm.=20 Everything seemed enormous to him: his mother=E2=80=99s breast,=20 The yellow steam of the camels=E2=80=99 breath, the Magi,=20 Balthazar, Caspar, Melchior, their gifts, carried here.=20 He was all of him just a point. And the point was a star.=20 Attentively, not blinking, shimmering through the sparse clouds,=20 Upon the child lying in the manger, from afar,=20 From the depths of the Universe, from its opposite end,=20 A star watched over the cave. And that was the father=E2=80=99s gaze.=20 24 December 1987 =20 From Paysage s navodneniem (Landscape with Flood)=20 Tr. Larissa Shmailo =20 Merry Christmas, Larissa =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 17:25:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Majzels Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Snake eating three ways" is still my favorite, Pierre. Happy holidays to you too. Robert On 23-Dec-06, at 4:34 PM, Pierre Joris wrote: > I did a Nomadics blog post on Chinese menus in English a while =20 > back -- you can see it here: > > http://pjoris.blogspot.com/2006/03/general-translators-=20 > unvegetarian.html > > > it has marvelous things such as > > "the farmer is small to fry king" > > "wood flower picks sea cucumber hoof" > > happy hols, > > Pierre > > > On Dec 21, 2006, at 2:57 PM, Paul Nelson wrote: > >> In Binghamton there is a Spanish restaurant offering "Chili con =20 >> Crane." >> >> Happy Solstice, >> >> Paul Nelson >> >> >> i love these. my fave is one i spotted in an out-of-the-way >> vietnamese restaurant in north minneapolis: baloney with mussels. >> they meant abalone. another fave is the ubiquitous "noddles." one >> place had an entire menu section entitled "fun with noddles." >> >> At 1:18 PM -0600 12/21/06, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >(the fresh fruit howl sounds good..) >> > >> >Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury >> > >> >By Clifford Coonan in Beijing >> > >> >Published: 21 December 2006 >> > >> >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article2091871.ece >> > >> >"Complicated cake", "pee soup", "five sliced things", "dumpling >> >stuffed with the ovary and digestive glands of a crab" and, >> >hopefully, "crap in the grass" are being banished from Beijing's >> >restaurants - as part of a plan to improve English spelling and >> >standardise signs and menus for the 2008 Olympics. >> > >> >One of the many joys of eating out in China is the linguistic >> >richness of the English menus - the misspelling of carp will always >> >raise a giggle. >> > >> >But chefs still favour direct translations from Chinese, or rather >> >prosaic descriptions of the food on offer, and there are wonderful >> >examples of garbled English all around the capital. Among this >> >correspondent's favourites is "fuck the certain price of goods" - >> >far more striking than "sale now on," while "children is not >> >recommended" has a certain elegance."Enter the mouth", a >> >mistranslation of the Chinese characters for "entrance" is also >> >common on signposts. >> > >> >The messages can range from the linguistically marvellous to the >> >plain baffling. The spa in my apartment building promises a "babble >> >bath", while in the Starbucks outlet at the airport you could buy a >> >"fresh fruit howl" instead of a fruit bowl. Property advertisements >> >are particularly prone, such as the skyscraper sold as "a wonder of >> >national cream". >> > >> >There are good intentions behind trying to put road signs in English >> >as well as Chinese, and generally the road signs are very accurate. >> >However, some safety signs can be truly magnificent: "No blowing of >> >horn. Keep silence!" or "notice the rockslide, please is run about >> >by cliff". >> > >> >Eager to avoid red faces ahead of the Olympics, the Chinese >> >government has set up a major drive to standardise the use of >> >English in public, called the "Beijing speaks to the world >> >committee," which scours the capital seeking out menus or road signs >> >lost in mistranslation. It has finished translating more than 1,000 >> >dishes and drinks so far. "We welcome public participation and >> >suggestions," the committee told the Beijing Daily. >> > >> >Some 300 million people are learning English in China, and the >> >standard has improved dramatically in recent years, which means >> >fewer howlers like those listed above. But I will always recall >> >landing in Kunming airport in Yunnan province in the 1990s to see a >> >sign reading: "We welcome our foreign fiends." A mistake, surely. >> >> --=20 >> Paul E. Nelson >> Global Voices Radio >> http://www.globalvoicesradio.org >> www.splab.org >> 888.735.MEAT > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > "Fascism should more properly > be called corporatism,since it is the > merger of state and corporate power." > =97 Benito Mussolini > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:28:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Response article in this week's Guardian (address for it)/"rattling chains" In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thank you, david--all this is making me think I need to get in a discussion group on The Middle East On 12/23/06 5:04 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" wrote: > In this week's Guardian Unlimited is a response "John Berger is Wrong" > penned by Julius Anthony and Simon Schama. > The address is: > http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ > > look in box on right hand side of screen and you'll see it listed as number > five > under "most active" along with the responses following--(weird reading them > as a good many are same people over and over talking amongst themselves) > > > Thank you Stephen Baraban for the links you sent--I read the articles you > recommended and also the "rattling the Chains of American Poetry" review of > Bernstein's book Girly Man in the journal the Forward. > "Rattling the chains" is a funny image--like Scrooge following the > ghost of Christmas Past with his rattling chains--and then rattling > chains--well it depends which side of the chains you are on and how they are > heard (if heard) to be rattling by whom. And then why not break the > chains? It also brings to mind the song "Chain of Fools" written by > singer/songwriter Don Covay for Aretha Franklin and the unofficial anthem of > Black soliders in Vietnam. My daughter is named Covay Maria Nadine for him > and that song one of favorites by him. "Chain chain chain . . . chain of > fools . . . " > > In the review, David Kaufmann writes of Bernstein's schtick of > exposing cliches in a rapid fire patter. On the one hand this is as > Kaufmann notes a deflationary exercise--on the other it can be seen as an > inflationary one, "I'm smarter than you are" in the use of language. So--a > questioning of this as what it means to be a poet? Via the history of the > technique from television and vaudeville (and much further back in time and > space, across continents)--it's a tried and true one and immensely popular. > (My favorites are Chico Marx and Rodney Dangerfield.) At a certain point, > with all due respect, I wonder (i have read the book) if the chains being > rattled aren't Mr. Bernstein's own, and far too much "earth shaking" gets > read into it. Another way of looking at it might be "wanting to have one's > cake and eat it, too". That is, to be both personal as David Kaufmann > points out, and political at the same time and on top of this, to become > popular, more mainstream, by injecting more of the dread "personal". It's > in that sense I mean the rattling of the chains is Mr. Bernstein's own. He > may well be on the way to writing poetry best sellers up there with Billy > Collins and company. ("Content's dream" . . . ) > > I didn't grow up with television (the review points out this > influence on Mr. Bernstein) but read a lot of hard boiled novels and they > play pretty fast and wild with cliches too. (Not to mention creating rafts > of them!) > The use of cliche as a masking and sublimating device is brilliantly > used by Jim Thompson through the voice of Sheriff Lou Ford in The Killer > Inside Me (1952). > Sheriff Ford calls this technique "applying the needle"--making the > victim squirm and sweat, tortured by the engulfing onslaught of superficial > banalities. Beneath the superficial is that vast emptiness--in which exists > "the killer inside me". Only a supreme effort of will can keep the cliches > coming and the emptiness at bay . . . > > "Well, I tell you," I drawled. "I tell you the way I look at it, a man > doesn't get any more out of life than what he puts into it." > "Ummm." he said, fidgeting. "I guess you're right, Lou." > "I was thinking the other day, Max; and all of a sudden I had the > doggonedst thought. It came to me out of a clear sky--the boy is father to > the man. Just like that. The boy is father to the man." > The smile on his face was getting strained. I could hear his shoes > creak as he squirmed. If there's anything worse than a bore, it's a corny > bore. But how can you brush off a nice friendly fellow who'd give you his > shirt if you asked for it?" > "I reckon I should have been a college professor or something like > that," I said. "Even when I'm asleep I'm working out problems. Take the > heat wave we had a few weeks ago; a lot of people think it's the heat makes > it so hot. But it's not like that, Max. It's not the heat, it's the > humidity. I'll bet you didn't know that, did you?" > He cleared his throat and muttered something about being wanted in the > kitchen. I pretended like I didn't hear him. > "Another thing about the weather," I said. "Everyone talks about it, > but no one does anything. But maybe it's better that way. Every cloud has > its silver lining, at least that's the way I figure it. I mean, if we > didn't have rain we wouldn't have rainbows, now would we?" > "Lou . . . " > "Well," I said, "I guess I better shove off. I've got quite a bit of > getting around to do, and I don't want to rush. Haste makes waste, in my > opinion, look before you leap." > That was dragging 'em in by the feet, but I couldn > 't hold 'em back. Striking at people that way is almost as good as the > other, the real way. . . > > Honi soi qui mal y pense! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Fixing up the home? Live Search can help > http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en- > US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:54:44 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "holsapple1@juno.com" Subject: Re: MLA: Sounds of Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, Charles. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 20:32:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pluto, Anne Elezabeth" Subject: Re: Brodsky's Christmas Star to West Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Larissa - I'd like to share mine. Christmas 2006 Texas Love Poem #9 (for TMC) I=92d gladly follow them Three men from the east having watched the moon and stars for ever searching from their Persian tower where now their tombs stand turquoise studded blue reaching heaven =96 did it burn them into splendor when they packed their gifts and saddled camels for the journey west and could He really have still been newborn or was He already his mother=92s splendid son whose uncommon life and violent death had yet to open =96 a book we all have read and read again This Christmas the story passes through me as if you had entered - welcome home this star it burns for me as you =96 brilliant golden the light you bring me from the west your skin as it ignites my own and turned together=20 into the rope of our surrender - I=92d gladly follow you this Christmas =96 to any manger =96 where they came too and brought their gifts =96 for a healer, a holy man, a king.=20 AEP Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year to all. Anne Elezabeth Pluto, Ph.D. Professor Artistic Director, Oxford Street Players of Lesley University 29 Everett Street Cambridge, MA 02138 617-349-8948 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Larissa Shmailo Sent: Sat 12/23/2006 6:57 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Brodsky's Christmas Star =20 =20 Christmas Star =20 By Joseph Brodsky=20 In a cold time, in a place more used to blazing heat =20 Than to cold, to flatness, more than to hills,=20 A child was born in a cave to save the world.=20 And it stormed, as only in the winter desert it can storm.=20 Everything seemed enormous to him: his mother's breast,=20 The yellow steam of the camels' breath, the Magi,=20 Balthazar, Caspar, Melchior, their gifts, carried here.=20 He was all of him just a point. And the point was a star.=20 Attentively, not blinking, shimmering through the sparse clouds,=20 Upon the child lying in the manger, from afar,=20 From the depths of the Universe, from its opposite end,=20 A star watched over the cave. And that was the father's gaze.=20 24 December 1987 =20 From Paysage s navodneniem (Landscape with Flood)=20 Tr. Larissa Shmailo =20 Merry Christmas, Larissa =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:32:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Corey Frost Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've done quite a bit of writing using mangled translations and, in particular, the English used to decorate things in Japan, and what I've always wondered is, at what point does bad translation become great poetry? Who gets credit: the writer or the observer? In other words, is "snake eating three ways" poetry, or found poetry? Corey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:53:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: <710FD4AE-16D2-483C-A5D3-377FEED9BCAA@gc.cuny.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One thing to remember, and there're some articles related to this topic online, is that bad translation, as you say, is forming the basis of contemporary English - or International/Global English, English as lingua franca. And, of course, this has always been the case - and certainly explains some of the unique characteristics of, for example, English in the U.S. I know a little about this from working for the British Council-China and for curriculum development done and teaching at, for example, Tsinghua University - in addition to positions in the private sector (both in Haerbin and Beijing, two cities culturally quite different). I know that David Graddol has written and lectured about this subject, and I seem to remember an article in an International edition of Newsweek from Last year - and, as you know, the editions can be quite different (marketing, of course, a consideration). If you look at this poem, as an example, "It's a quarter to half past two" is, literally, 2:15 - and was something taken directly from conversation. Necessarily, as observers of culture, it's necessary to utalize all tools at our disposal. http://www.emich.edu/studentorgs/bhouse/oldbhouse/v3n1/wadingbird.htm AJ --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:11:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: that's no lady--that's my wife('s sister)! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hotel Log Hints at Illicit Desire That Dr. Freud Didn’t Repress By RALPH BLUMENTHAL Published: December 24, 2006 Maybe it was just a Freudian slip. Or a case of hiding in plain sight. Freud signed the register, above, at the hotel where he stayed with his sister-in-law in 1898, as Dr. Sigmund Freud and wife. Either way, Sigmund Freud, scribbling in the pages of a Swiss hotel register, appears to have left the answer to a question that has titillated scholars for much of the last century: Did he have an affair with his wife’s younger sister, Minna Bernays? Rumors of a romantic liaison between Freud and his sister-in-law, who lived with the Freuds, have long persisted, despite staunch denials by Freud loyalists. The Swiss psychoanalyst Carl Gustav Jung, Freud’s disciple and later his archrival, claimed that Miss Bernays had confessed to an affair to him. (The claim was dismissed by Freudians as malice on Jung’s part.) And some researchers have even theorized that she may have become pregnant by Freud and have had an abortion. What was lacking was any proof. But a German sociologist now says he has found evidence that on Aug. 13, 1898, during a two-week vacation in the Swiss Alps, Freud, then 42, and Miss Bernays, then 33, put up at the Schweizerhaus, an inn in Maloja, and registered as a married couple, a finding that may cause historians to re-evaluate their understanding of Freud’s own psychology. A yellowing page of the leather-bound ledger shows that they occupied Room 11. Freud signed the book, in his distinctive Germanic scrawl, “Dr Sigm Freud u frau,” abbreviated German for “Dr. Sigmund Freud and wife.” “By any reasonable standard of proof, Sigmund Freud and his wife’s sister, Minna Bernays, had a liaison,” wrote Franz Maciejewski, a sociologist formerly at the University of Heidelberg and a specialist in psychoanalysis, who tracked down the record in August. Freud’s wife, Martha, knew about his trip with Miss Bernays, if not its nature. The same day Freud signed the hotel ledger, he sent his wife a postcard rhapsodizing about the glaciers, mountains and lakes the pair had seen. In the card, published in Freud’s collected correspondence, he described their lodgings as “humble,” although the hotel appears to have been the second-fanciest in town. The evidence is persuasive enough for Peter Gay, the Freud biographer and longtime skeptic on what he called “the Minna matter,” to say that he is now inclined to revise his work accordingly. “It makes it very possible that they slept together,” he said. “It doesn’t make him or psychoanalysis more or less correct.” The revelation is also likely to reignite a longstanding debate about Freud’s personal life. The father of psychoanalysis, whose 150th birthday was celebrated this year, plumbed the darkest sexual drives and secrets of the psyche. But scholars still argue about how scrupulous Freud was in his own behavior. Peter L. Rudnytsky, a former Fulbright/Freud Society Scholar of Psychoanalysis in Vienna and the editor of the psychoanalytic journal American Imago, said the disclosure was hardly a “so what?” matter because “psychoanalysis has such a close relationship to the life of Freud.” “Psychoanalysis has invested a great deal in a certain idealized image of Freud,” said Dr. Rudnytsky, a professor of English at the University of Florida. “Freud dealt with issues considered suspect — sexuality — things that made people uncomfortable, so Freud himself had to be a figure of impeccable integrity.” In any case, he said: “Things that happen in people’s intimate lives are important. It’s very Freudian.” Freud himself was cryptic, writing to the American neurologist James J. Putman in 1915: “I stand for a much freer sexual life. However I have made little use of such freedom.” Peter Swales, a historian and researcher who has spent decades uncovering details of Freud’s relationship with his sister-in-law, hailed the discovery as recognition of what he called “Minna Bernays’s central, fundamental and profound place in Freud’s intellectual biography.” How Dr. Maciejewski discovered the hotel ledger in itself seems strangely Freudian. He spent August 2005 retracing the Swiss idyll taken by Freud and Miss Bernays for a book, published this year, on Freud’s long fixation on Moses. While in Switzerland with Miss Bernays, Freud had trouble remembering a name. Dr. Maciejewski theorized that the lapse involved some secret guilt of Freud’s, but he could not get to the bottom of it. However, while reading the proofs of his book last spring, he said, “a feeling of you forgot something crept over me.” In August, he returned to Maloja, and asked at the Schweizerhaus if the original guest book still existed. It did, and there, on a page from 1898, he found Freud’s entry. Dr. Maciejewski said he came away convinced that “they not only shared a bed, they were even up to misrepresenting their relationship to strangers as that of husband and wife, a subterfuge they surely then maintained whenever feasible during subsequent holidays together in faraway places.” Dr. Maciejewski published an article about his find in a German newspaper, the Frankfurter Rundschau, in September. An English version will appear in American Imago next month. Freud helped found the quarterly, now published by Johns Hopkins University Press, in 1939, shortly before his death in London, where he lived after fleeing the Nazis. Minna Bernays died in London in 1941. Jürg Wintsch, proprietor of the Schweizerhaus, confirmed the existence of the ledger entry, which he said Dr. Maciejewski had first brought to his attention. He described Room 11, now called 24, as one of the largest in the hotel and said its structure was substantially unchanged since Freud’s visit. He said he had been hoping to keep Freud’s stay there a secret until the hotel’s 125th anniversary next June. The triangle of Freud, his wife and her sister has long been irresistible to scholars, including Dr. Gay, who noted in a 1989 essay, “As every biographer of Freud must ruefully acknowledge, that great unriddler of mysteries left behind some tantalizing private mysteries of his own.” The most riveting among them, he wrote, were the rumors of a love affair with Miss Bernays. But, he added, scant evidence of any romance could be found in the published correspondence between Freud and his sister-in-law, although some letters were intriguingly missing. From the moment Freud fell in love with Martha Bernays in 1882, he was also drawn to her “intelligent, caustic” younger sister, Minna, whose fiancé died of tuberculosis in 1886, the year the Freuds married, Dr. Gay wrote in the essay. In 1896, Miss Bernays moved in with the Freuds, helping with household chores and child rearing. She lived with them, it turned out, for 42 years. In 1953, Ernest Jones, Freud’s student and first biographer, tried vigorously to dispel stray gossip about Freud’s “second wife.” He dismissed what he called “strange legends” and described Freud as “monogamic in a very unusual degree.” Mr. Jones wrote, “His wife was assuredly the only woman in Freud’s love life, and she always came first before all other mortals.” This idyllic portrait largely held sway until 1969, when John M. Billinsky, a psychologist at the Andover Newton Theological School in Massachusetts, published an interview he conducted with Jung in Switzerland in 1957. Recounting a visit with his wife to Freud in Vienna in 1907, Jung told Dr. Billinsky that Freud had said, “I am sorry I can give you no real hospitality; I have nothing at home but an elderly wife.” In contrast, Jung described Miss Bernays as “very good looking” — although later photographs show her rather dour and stolid — and said that in private she confessed that “she was very much bothered by her relationship with Freud and felt guilty about it.” “From her I learned that Freud was in love with her and that their relationship was indeed very intimate,” Jung continued. When Jung and Freud traveled to America in 1909, Jung said, Freud confided some dreams about Mrs. Freud and Miss Bernays, but then abruptly ended the discussion, saying, “I could tell you more, but I cannot risk my authority.” Jung’s account was attacked as unreliable by, among others, Dr. Kurt R. Eissler, the longtime director of the Sigmund Freud Archives who, as recently as 1993, six years before his death at 90, wrote in a published essay, “In one respect Freud was undeniably superior to Jung: his sexual record was lily white.” Dr. Eissler said that Freud’s theory “of course was obscene, with its eternal harping on sex, but the conduct of the man who originated it was beyond reproach.” What Dr. Eissler did not say was that four years before the Billinsky interview, he had heard many of the same things about Freud and Miss Bernays firsthand in an interview with Jung in Zurich in 1953. But Dr. Eissler and the Freud Archives placed an embargo on the transcript of the interview for 50 years and then ordered the papers sealed for an additional 10 years, until 2013. A German transcript, stamped “Confidential,” in the Library of Congress was made available in 2003 for reading only at the library, although a copy was obtained by The New York Times. In 1981, Dr. Eissler was at the center of an uproar at the Archives when his designated successor as director, Jeffrey M. Masson, was fired after breaking ranks with orthodox Freudians over interpretations of psychoanalytic theory and Freud’s character. In the 1953 Jung interview, which Dr. Eissler apparently never cited publicly, Jung said he thought Miss Bernays had developed a psychological attachment to Freud but that when he had broached the subject, Freud turned unresponsive. “Every man has his secrets,” Jung concluded, adding that when it came to Freud himself, “the unconscious was something which one should not touch.” Jung theorized to Dr. Eissler that Freud had experienced some disappointment in love, sublimating it into a drive for power and developing a neurosis expressed in fear of losing control of his bladder. “It could be precisely that he got into this conflict which in marriage is all too frequent, right?” Jung said. “The young woman, the other woman.” Jung said that he vaguely recalled something about “a possible pregnancy,” but quickly added, “That can all be a stupid assumption.” Hardly so to Mr. Swales. In a 1982 journal article, he argued that Freud’s story of a young man’s episode of forgetfulness in his 1901 book, “The Psychopathology of Everyday Life,” was actually thinly disguised autobiography, exposing Freud’s own alarm over an inconvenient pregnancy. Since then, Mr. Swales said, he has traced a 1900 trip by Freud and Miss Bernays to the Austrian town of Meran where she may have had an abortion, falling mysteriously ill after returning to Vienna. Freud, in a letter to his friend Wilhelm Fliess, said that Miss Bernays was suffering from a lung ailment, but, Mr. Swales said, “The jury is still out.” __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:39:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Pee soup is off the menu as China makes its English more savoury In-Reply-To: <763195.6504.qm@web54611.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7038031/site/newsweek/ I think this is the article - an online version. Another thing, which I do not think a lot of people know, and I'm perhaps moving away from anecdotes related to menus and local signs, but that what might be termed as bad English might rather be described as the best offering of what is being taught from university text books. One example is Tsinghua University (comparable to, say Harvard, but not really, as is often the case at Chinese Universities, where ambition is often not nearly as useful as logic as able is to enable) I literally forced my way into an editing position, with lots of support from my chief, as they say, out of sheer frustration for what I saw as substandard text books being written by the university press. So, what I am saying is that in China, for example, these errors are not always about poor translation, but rather the adept usage of a structurally poor educational system. Oh, and lots of individuals learning English, and this is my opinion, on the Mainland, just aren't interested, in a substanitive way, in learning about the cultural system bolstering and shaping, for whence the language sprang and developed- as one, again, my opinion, would be in a liberal education. And I think I'm right about this - and I'm not saying this is wrong, because language is a tool, but it is a different way of approaching language learning and cultural studies - of appropriating communication. So, the language comes out as it does! AJ --- Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > One thing to remember, and there're some articles > related to this topic online, is that bad > translation, > as you say, is forming the basis of contemporary > English - or International/Global English, English > as > lingua franca. And, of course, this has always been > the case - and certainly explains some of the unique > characteristics of, for example, English in the U.S. > > I know a little about this from working for the > British Council-China and for curriculum development > done and teaching at, for example, Tsinghua > University > - in addition to positions in the private sector > (both > in Haerbin and Beijing, two cities culturally quite > different). I know that David Graddol has written > and > lectured about this subject, and I seem to remember > an > article in an International edition of Newsweek from > Last year - and, as you know, the editions can be > quite different (marketing, of course, a > consideration). > > If you look at this poem, as an example, "It's a > quarter to half past two" is, literally, 2:15 - and > was something taken directly from conversation. > Necessarily, as observers of culture, it's necessary > to utalize all tools at our disposal. > > http://www.emich.edu/studentorgs/bhouse/oldbhouse/v3n1/wadingbird.htm > > AJ > > > > --- > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:14:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Not sensible to say a system ( > > http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/system ) understands anything? > > Jason Quackebush wrote: > This is why I think it's important to pay attention to the > metaphors built into our language, and to be careful with the > applications of universals like "system." I think the only thing > it's sensible to literally predicate the verb "to understand of" > are minds and things that have minds. So, in our world, and with > our language, that's people and animals. It's true to say a mind > is a system, but to say a system is therefore a mind and capable > of understanding is to beg the question. I think if it does > anything, and I'm pretty unimpressed by and large with a lot of > the things the Chinese Room thought experiment claims to show, > the scenario at root shows that not all systems are minds. That's > pretty uncontroversial. I don't think the HVAC in my apartment > building is a mind that understands room temperature and airflow, > although that's an awfully pretty metaphor. And that's really > where I think > a lot of this goes wrong. To pick up a thread from what Murat > wrote earlier, to my way of thinking, real number computation > isn't what goes on in the human brain. That what goes on in the > human brain might be described or modelled in those terms is > another matter, and I can certainly conceive of a computer model > that simulated the workings of a brain in quantum detail. The > question, and I think it is an open one, is whether such a model > would be a mind. I think not on grammatical grounds. Our > understanding of minds is largely extrapolated from our own > experience of thought, self-awareness, and consciousness. I don't > think you have to argue for the existence of one of Ryle's ghosts > in the machine (one of the most lovely and poetic phrases to come > out of 20th c. analytic philosophy, in my opinion, and i think > it's ironic that Ryle came up with the expression as a form of > ridicule.) I also think > that whether or not there is a ghost in the machine is a sticky > knot of a question that neuroscience to date has to leave to > conjecture based on one's metaphysical commitments. What form the > ghost might take, whether it's some metaphysical mental extra > that supervenes on the brain, is some sort of emergent property > of neural networks, or is merely an epiphenomenal accident of > some sort, I don't feel comfortable speculating about. I do > think, however, that the understanding of consciousness has > progressed past the point of early computer science's speculation > that the brain might be some sort of computational object along > the lines of a turing machine, and I think the chinese room is a > nice, but flawed, example of why that is. Nobody's saying a system is a mind, Jason, but that a mind is a system. As for ghosts in the machine, try this. Whether we look at the processes of the brain at a micro level or the processes of a large computer program, again at a micro level, things like understanding and consciousness are no where to be found. The micro-processes of the brain appear as mechanical as the processes of a computer program. How could they not? They're brain chemistry. No ghost. No little man inside the head that we can see with a microscope. No discernable essence. Things like understanding, consciousness, and sentience occur at a higher level, at a system level, in the relations and interactions of the system. Consciousness is not one thing but a million little things supporting one another or at war with each other--in relation with each other. Because we cannot pinpoint consciousness in the brain but, instead, only infer its presence or absence by the behavior of the entity in question, we see that consciousness itself is something like a ghost or a spirit. Now, I'm *not* saying that it *is* a ghost or a spirit. But that it is *like* a ghost or a spirit in that we cannot pinpoint it in the brain. Whether this sort of high-level system intelligence is dependent on brain chemistry or computer code may then be seen to be a secondary consideration. Consciousness cannot be pin-pointed in the brain and it cannot be pinpointed in computer code. Both the brain's chemistry and the computer processing are mechanical systems that give no indication of consciousness directly but only in the overall system behavior. > I do > think, however, that the understanding of consciousness has > progressed past the point of early computer science's speculation > that the brain might be some sort of computational object along > the lines of a turing machine, and I think the chinese room is a > nice, but flawed, example of why that is. I'm not sure if you appreciate the generality of the Turing machine, Jason. It's a very simple but very subtle machine. It is called the universal computer for an important reason: because all machines that humanity has currently dreamt up or truly realized are no more powerful in their computational power than the Turing machine. It is 'the universal machine' in the sense that any machine that we can make can be modelled as a Turing machine, whether it is a computing device or any other type of device. There is absolutely no accepted proof that there exist thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not. So there is absolutely nothing that, in theory, precludes the possibility of creating machines that think. They mayn't be human in their cogitations, because they would have different bodies and experience and so on, most likely. Consciousness is a matter of high-level system behavior. It has to do with things like learning capacity, capacity with language, the ability to form and use a world view, and to augment that world view with new experience and insights. These sorts of considerations are independent of whether they happen via digital processing or brain chemistry. The architecture of the mind is a city in the air of information flow. Its structures are not made of brain cells or computer code but flexible data structures that change according to the flow of information through them. And, as such, the minds may be realized through our biological heritage or computing devices--and also, perhaps, via new types of machines, should we ever progress beyond the capacities of the Turing machine--which, frankly, seems unlikely. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:17:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612231318m12a3ceb3x6a3b88bd17211ed5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to reply to two emails in this message because there are more than two messages I'd like to reply to in my allotted two messages today. *************************************************** > Murat wrote: > When you say "when we do not have access to the source code, as > is the case > with living beings and proprietary software," are you not implicitly > assuming an equality, a democracy between living being and proprietory > software -in some way begging the issue? Perhaps you will find in my reply to Patrick, below, an attempt to address his points directly. Concerning the ethical status of software beings, Murat, we don't have to deal with it yet, except hypothetically, because there are none yet that are sufficiently sophisticated to challenge us so deeply. But there probably will be, eventually. Don't know when. Assuming we aren't all swimming with the fishes. We shall have to consider the rights and freedoms of sentient beings regardless of their race, species, or biological/cybernetic origin. I mean this issue will arise in courts of law, Murat, as beings or their representatives seek recognition for their status as sentient beings. Have you ever had the feeling, the realization, that you are a sentient being independent of your race, species, or biological/cybernetic origin, and what it might be like to concede/honour that dignity in another species or even a cyborg? It's a consciousness that many science fiction writers have explored. I think of the death scene of Roy, in Bladerunner/Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. Actually, I also think of it concerning my cat, but that's another matter. *************************************************** > Patrick wrote: > Jim, it honestly pains me to have to insist that yours may not be a > wholly fair dismissal of Searle's Chinese Room argument. > > Computing machines (von Neumann machines) adhere to rule sets, whether > or not there are higher-level "dynamic" languages (e.g., Ruby) built on > top of them. Further, one could easily change Searle's own rule set, > his assumptions, to assume that the ruleset is dynamic. His point would > still hold. And perhaps more importantly, what is that point of > Searle's argument? Searle's "point" is to show that consciousness is > something rather beyond the evaluation of a Turing test. More simply, > you can pass for understanding something, for being aware of and > understanding of language itself, just by appearing to be able to > manipulate it. Even simpler: syntax use doesn't imply mind. It's not > complete enough of an explanation for us so why would we make it a > standard for us? Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the entity, then ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical. But the same could be said of human cogitation, Patrick. Were we able to trace human cogitation in the brain, it would appear mechanical. How could it not? It is brain chemistry. It's important to realize that understanding, consciousness, sentience, and other such profoundly sentient notions are properties not of the micro-mechanics of the processing, but are more high-level. It doesn't matter whether the processing is carried out by one type of mechanical process or another, e.g., whether the processing is digital or via brain chemistry. Understanding and sentience are not predicated on a particular type of microprocessing, e.g., animal or human brain chemistry. Understanding and sentience are invisible at the level of brain chemistry or computer CPU activity. To point out that the processing is mindlessly mechanical in a computer and then conclude that this precludes understanding and consciousness, etc, is to deny its existence in humans as well, because our cognitive processes are equally mechanical at the micro level. How could they not be? ja http://vispo.com ps: Happy holidays to you, Murat and Patrick, and to all on the list. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:10:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The gods. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The gods. You have heard the tales of white birds, wings from dawn to dusk. They fill the sky with translucence, muffle the shape of clouds. Their cries gave someone the idea of language and mourning. The utterance of the first word, 'inconceivable.' The bittern knows the gods. Tonight the gods will descend upon the earth. They will sink into the earth, but only so much into the earth. Sinking as if the soil were damp or marsh, unable to cope. Unable to cope with so much deity, nonetheless resistant. All gods are jagged gods and all gods are desperate. All gods are the shifters in language of the second person. Gods create the third person from the second person. And beyond the third, a fourth, and beyond a fourth, the fifth. Once the gods are created they are released. That is one of the definitions of the gods. The gods descend like rain into meadows and wild fields. Fields lain fallow or fields of unspoken appearance beneath glacier and stream. Planted, their root systems are shallow, winds will trample them. Storms will weigh them down with the pleasure and fecundity of water. It is the incoherency of the gods that is their definitions. What is released is incoherent, what is coherent is framed, what lies between them is aliased. The aliasing of the gods is the jagged of the gods and the names of the gods, who abjure names. The punishment of naming names, the punishment of names. Like sea oats like ocotillo like willows like quaking aspen, slight movements of the gods shimmer the murmurs of the worlds. Gods are worlds, are incoherent worlds, every definition a definition of the gods. They come in winter. They reside. Tonight the gods descend upon the earth. They descend into the soft earth, they sink into the soft earth. They are invisible to us, we are invisible to them. The slightest impressions as they bend, move silently, the slightest sounds, their murmuring. All gods are smoothed, all gods are filled with the quietude of rustlings, unfathomable beauty, mist at dawn, the vertical. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:24:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: The gods. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Very nice, Alan thanks. I don't know if you know the rice marshes near Marysville, east of Sacramento, California. This time of year the sky is robust with migrations of birds (ducks, geese, etc., etc.) - including the massive variations in sounds. Your poem (work) would be right at home there Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Where currently are some accounts of 'spirits of the dead' - Short poems by elders with whom I have been working. Some quite astonishing. > The gods. > > > You have heard the tales of white birds, wings from dawn to dusk. > They fill the sky with translucence, muffle the shape of clouds. > Their cries gave someone the idea of language and mourning. > The utterance of the first word, 'inconceivable.' > > The bittern knows the gods. > > Tonight the gods will descend upon the earth. > They will sink into the earth, but only so much into the earth. > Sinking as if the soil were damp or marsh, unable to cope. > Unable to cope with so much deity, nonetheless resistant. > All gods are jagged gods and all gods are desperate. > All gods are the shifters in language of the second person. > Gods create the third person from the second person. > And beyond the third, a fourth, and beyond a fourth, the fifth. > Once the gods are created they are released. > That is one of the definitions of the gods. > The gods descend like rain into meadows and wild fields. > Fields lain fallow or fields of unspoken appearance beneath glacier and > stream. > Planted, their root systems are shallow, winds will trample them. > Storms will weigh them down with the pleasure and fecundity of water. > It is the incoherency of the gods that is their definitions. > What is released is incoherent, what is coherent is framed, what lies > between them is aliased. > The aliasing of the gods is the jagged of the gods and the names of the > gods, who abjure names. > The punishment of naming names, the punishment of names. > Like sea oats like ocotillo like willows like quaking aspen, > slight movements of the gods shimmer the murmurs of the worlds. > Gods are worlds, are incoherent worlds, every definition a definition > of the gods. > They come in winter. They reside. > Tonight the gods descend upon the earth. > They descend into the soft earth, they sink into the soft earth. > They are invisible to us, we are invisible to them. > The slightest impressions as they bend, move silently, the slightest > sounds, their murmuring. > All gods are smoothed, all gods are filled with the quietude of rustlings, > unfathomable beauty, mist at dawn, the vertical. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:25:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Of course, as you also suggest, on a practical level the issue may not exist yet; but on the level of anxiety, literature, it already is very cogent. I agree with you "Blade Runners/Do Androids..." is perhaps the central work. In the film Roy, in his/its last scene on the balcony, ledge is more human than the humans -a self-awareness of mortality (not necessarily any technological or mental feat) being the most human sentience there is.Alsothe Ford character does escape (elope?) with the Sean character, though it is implied Ford himself/itself is an android. Despite all this, in the film an idea of "irreducible" distinction is also a constant, revolving around the "eye" tests. In some ways, if one follows your point of view, assuming the difference between computer/machine and human to be a continuum, then, the issue becomes basically the same as the controversy around traditional and gay marriages. The "future" history of Humanoid liberation becomes part of the history of gay liberation. I would like to bring another film which has a lot say about the issue, Spielberg/Kubrick's A.I. In that film all the technical problems are solved. One is even able to create children who "feel" love, even possessed of a odd version of The Oedipus Complex. But what happens if the "real" child returns (recovers from sickness) and the android is dropped (Oedipus-like in the fields)? An unredeemable sense of loss, of yearning (by the "android" for its "human" mother) continues through centuries, the 3-hour long film. In other words, the idea of the wall, of distinction, separation never disappears -even in this most pyrothecnic of American directors, whose major theme in many of his films is to make the audience feel "human" emotions for alien "contraptions" (E.T., dinausors, etc.). All I am saying is that I do not think that the issue of the relationship between human and computer is basically technical or even symbolic. These are historical, technological and even cognitive developments to which the human must develop a metaphysical response. As for the "ghost in the machine," which I discussed with Patrick in a related post. The traditional, at least the Western/Christian, view is that the ghost (the soul) is eternal, and the body (the material) is mortal, ephemeral, the counter-argument being that they are the same (Jim's and maybe Patrick's view). It seems to me facts point to a different direction. It is the physical (the body) which is eternal. While the person dies, the material of its body survives, in endless transformations. That is what science tells us. What is actually mortal is consciousness (the soul). That may be why, in Buddhism, Nirvana is a state of consciouness post transformations (reincarnations), a little bit like "classless society" in Marxism. Of course, Judaism has a different approach. Forget about the soul (after-life). Deal with the ethics of individual, social consciousness (e,g. always health, parental respect, etc., coming before ritual, or code). Ciao, Murat On 12/24/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > I'm going to reply to two emails in this message because there are more > than > two messages I'd like to reply to in my allotted two messages today. > > *************************************************** > > > Murat wrote: > > When you say "when we do not have access to the source code, as > > is the case > > with living beings and proprietary software," are you not implicitly > > assuming an equality, a democracy between living being and proprietory > > software -in some way begging the issue? > > Perhaps you will find in my reply to Patrick, below, an attempt to address > his points directly. > > Concerning the ethical status of software beings, Murat, we don't have to > deal with it yet, except hypothetically, because there are none yet that > are > sufficiently sophisticated to challenge us so deeply. But there probably > will be, eventually. Don't know when. Assuming we aren't all swimming with > the fishes. We shall have to consider the rights and freedoms of sentient > beings regardless of their race, species, or biological/cybernetic origin. > I > mean this issue will arise in courts of law, Murat, as beings or their > representatives seek recognition for their status as sentient beings. > > Have you ever had the feeling, the realization, that you are a sentient > being independent of your race, species, or biological/cybernetic origin, > and what it might be like to concede/honour that dignity in another > species > or even a cyborg? It's a consciousness that many science fiction writers > have explored. I think of the death scene of Roy, in Bladerunner/Do > Androids > Dream of Electric Sheep. Actually, I also think of it concerning my cat, > but > that's another matter. > > *************************************************** > > > Patrick wrote: > > Jim, it honestly pains me to have to insist that yours may not be a > > wholly fair dismissal of Searle's Chinese Room argument. > > > > Computing machines (von Neumann machines) adhere to rule sets, whether > > or not there are higher-level "dynamic" languages (e.g., Ruby) built on > > top of them. Further, one could easily change Searle's own rule set, > > his assumptions, to assume that the ruleset is dynamic. His point would > > still hold. And perhaps more importantly, what is that point of > > Searle's argument? Searle's "point" is to show that consciousness is > > something rather beyond the evaluation of a Turing test. More simply, > > you can pass for understanding something, for being aware of and > > understanding of language itself, just by appearing to be able to > > manipulate it. Even simpler: syntax use doesn't imply mind. It's not > > complete enough of an explanation for us so why would we make it a > > standard for us? > > Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the entity, > then > ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical. > But > the same could be said of human cogitation, Patrick. Were we able to trace > human cogitation in the brain, it would appear mechanical. How could it > not? > It is brain chemistry. > > It's important to realize that understanding, consciousness, sentience, > and > other such profoundly sentient notions are properties not of the > micro-mechanics of the processing, but are more high-level. It doesn't > matter whether the processing is carried out by one type of mechanical > process or another, e.g., whether the processing is digital or via brain > chemistry. Understanding and sentience are not predicated on a particular > type of microprocessing, e.g., animal or human brain chemistry. > Understanding and sentience are invisible at the level of brain chemistry > or > computer CPU activity. > > To point out that the processing is mindlessly mechanical in a computer > and > then conclude that this precludes understanding and consciousness, etc, is > to deny its existence in humans as well, because our cognitive processes > are > equally mechanical at the micro level. How could they not be? > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ps: Happy holidays to you, Murat and Patrick, and to all on the list. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:45:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: The gods. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Outstanding Alan. Makes me ponder taking flight, the ability to soar. Transcendence. All fine things to be thinking about right now. - Peter Ciccariello Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ On 12/24/06, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > The gods. > > > You have heard the tales of white birds, wings from dawn to dusk. > They fill the sky with translucence, muffle the shape of clouds. > Their cries gave someone the idea of language and mourning. > The utterance of the first word, 'inconceivable.' > > The bittern knows the gods. > > Tonight the gods will descend upon the earth. > They will sink into the earth, but only so much into the earth. > Sinking as if the soil were damp or marsh, unable to cope. > Unable to cope with so much deity, nonetheless resistant. > All gods are jagged gods and all gods are desperate. > All gods are the shifters in language of the second person. > Gods create the third person from the second person. > And beyond the third, a fourth, and beyond a fourth, the fifth. > Once the gods are created they are released. > That is one of the definitions of the gods. > The gods descend like rain into meadows and wild fields. > Fields lain fallow or fields of unspoken appearance beneath glacier and > stream. > Planted, their root systems are shallow, winds will trample them. > Storms will weigh them down with the pleasure and fecundity of water. > It is the incoherency of the gods that is their definitions. > What is released is incoherent, what is coherent is framed, what lies > between them is aliased. > The aliasing of the gods is the jagged of the gods and the names of the > gods, who abjure names. > The punishment of naming names, the punishment of names. > Like sea oats like ocotillo like willows like quaking aspen, > slight movements of the gods shimmer the murmurs of the worlds. > Gods are worlds, are incoherent worlds, every definition a definition > of the gods. > They come in winter. They reside. > Tonight the gods descend upon the earth. > They descend into the soft earth, they sink into the soft earth. > They are invisible to us, we are invisible to them. > The slightest impressions as they bend, move silently, the slightest > sounds, their murmuring. > All gods are smoothed, all gods are filled with the quietude of rustlings, > unfathomable beauty, mist at dawn, the vertical. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Slouching towards Bethlehem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Slouching towards Bethlehem -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612241125y614944e9u3a335c41db845b1a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed With Holiday cheer to all-- some simply fun speculations-- An aspect among a seemingly endless numbr of them I find interesting in this disucssion is that there are two movements which are approaching each other in a very interesting interface/overlapping. That is, on the one hand there is a century plus exploration of the ways in hich humans can be mechanized--made more and more machin-like in behaviours at work and in institutions, armies, etc etc and on the other the development towards artificial inteliigence--machines will become more and more human-like (we speculate). The underlying drive of both tendenies is a dream of in some way "perfecting" the human by means of the machine. Alredy with the development of prostheses one finds limbs and organ etc which can fucntion "better" in many way than th otiriginals. One can envision people with the financial means and acdcess as they age--and we are approaching the ever greater explosion of the baby boom into the aging boom in many soceities already--the rich wil be able to keep supplying thesmelves with ever more up to date and better replacement parts, becoming more and more "artificially human" while stil retaining something of their "personal identity". artificial intelligence--one can envision being used to replace grandpa's fading mind--all sorts of possibilities there. A blurring of the mechanized human and humanized mechnical is something we are aready seeing underway. (One can imgigne used parts stores popular among the not so well off, and black market in particularly prized parts . . . as well as bootlegged versions of both prostheses and various forms of AI at some point . . . ) The drive towards a perfectability --isn't this an ancient dream? Somehow being human is at once the pinnacle of evolution and yet inadequate, "we are only using one fifth of our potenetial" to "realize ourselves" as one often reads. "By any means necesary" to work to be the first, or the leaders, in attaining ever greater degrees of potentialities. The question of relating with machines is a surprsing one, becuase for quite some time humans have had intesne relationships with machines that they employ, live with, create with, that their dreams are made with so to speak. People relate intesnely with a particualr car or keyboard, a particlar coffe maker, etc etc etc racing drivers, for example (a number of themi n my family) have literally a life and death relationship with their car in which it is like a being they have to be on the most intimate terms with, "I know my car better than my wife or even myself" a relative said. "And it knows me better." Remember the film "The Stepford Wives"? The human wife too much of a drag--these proto-androids far preferable. End of women's liberation. (William Burroughs, who also wrote a versionof Blade Runner--would often in interviews dvocate a future i which women were no longer necessary. Not even Stepford Wives.) Certains elements of the populace are necessary and enjoyable as long as they don't create al those awful human probelms they have? Replace them with replicants who act and live just like them, do everything the same, except make the demands the troblesome humans did. (A great forerunner of this kind of vision is Poe's short piece "Morning on the Wissahicaon" which puns on "mourning"--a colonized simulacra of "American wilderness" replacing it for the tourist, and doing so so well that American himself is taken in until told the truh later.) Paul Virilio in "Pure War" quotes Malrux: "What makes humans different is the ability to say no." (As in Ionesco's Rhinoceros--the "no" goes against the grain of what sems logically yes to everyone else. ) It's perfectly plausble that that kind of "no" can be left out of what an artifical intelligence is given to "know". I think th possiblities of "mixing" are very interesting --that is, of what we already have with mixing of ever more technologically improved prothetics with humans, and of various forms of artificail inelligence with humans--our use right now of these machines to communicate with each other--makes me begin to wonder of a future i which there is a mixing of human and android--I'm of mixed race as ever more people are, so this is a possibility also to consider. A proverb from Brazil which makes me leery of any improvement in classlessness via artifical intelligence is "When shit is worth money, the poor will be born without assholes." An artifical intelligenc may not be able to distinguish among humans in this way--yet as long as there are humans are around it, they wil make sure that it does. Even ihen all are created perfect--there are bound to be some who are more perfect than others to their way of being perfect. Unless a very great deal of what is "human" can be non-programmed into artifical intelligence. Yet, who is to say that as an artifical intelligence gathers awarenes of the situation, it will not see that indeed, it is "better" than the flawed humans? All the problens which human have already with ethics, laws, relgions, philosphies, ownership, nations, idenities, etc--of course there is the drive for a perfecting of the human via some other mean than ones as yet tried. But then--whose perfection? Which versions get programmed in to A1? I'm just suggesting these various ideas from a a purely speculative point of view--I don't know the mathematics and other backgrounds, so don't mean this to be taken in the same line of thinking, but to the side, since speculations and speculative examples have already been introduced, and they are indeed limitless when one begins to riff on them. I've worked around and with several kinds of aniumals over the years, and the one I endlessly find inpsiring is the cat. Cats live among humans now for tens of thousands of years--they respond to one emotionally, become invovled in human life in a very full way--yet they can also stil go out the door and enter an other world--a wild feline world of hunting, terriitorail control, instincts which lead them to break rules tuaght them by humans--and they are not Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde--this is all a flow along the continuum of their being. The cat knows how to live very well "at home" with its human family--and knows how to live outside, on the streets or in "the wild". In their own way cats have also an ability to say "no". If i think abou living in a scoeity of replicants or more and more technologized humans--I think of the cat. There's an interesting lesson in there for "human survival"! Become a liminal being! The mixed, the liminal--these I find too often left out of the more either/or kinds of discussions dealing with humans/artifical intelligence. (Too much either/or--what happens to both/and? After all, cats were nearly completely exteminated from western europe at one point.) And yet--with the overlappings going on--what are going to be seen as "good" kinds of both/and and "bad" kinds? There is right there stil the idea of some being more perfect than other, more equal than others etc-- As Francois Villon wrote: "I cheer up in sad despair". >From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Strong AI >Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:25:59 -0500 > >Jim, > >Of course, as you also suggest, on a practical level the issue may not >exist >yet; but on the level of anxiety, literature, it already is very cogent. I >agree with you "Blade Runners/Do Androids..." is perhaps the central work. >In the film Roy, in his/its last scene on the balcony, ledge is more human >than the humans -a self-awareness of mortality (not necessarily any >technological or mental feat) being the most human sentience there >is.Alsothe Ford character does escape (elope?) with the Sean >character, though it >is implied Ford himself/itself is an android. > >Despite all this, in the film an idea of "irreducible" distinction is also >a >constant, revolving around the "eye" tests. > >In some ways, if one follows your point of view, assuming the difference >between computer/machine and human to be a continuum, then, the issue >becomes basically the same as the controversy around traditional and gay >marriages. The "future" history of Humanoid liberation becomes part of the >history of gay liberation. > >I would like to bring another film which has a lot say about the issue, >Spielberg/Kubrick's A.I. In that film all the technical problems are >solved. One is even able to create children who "feel" love, even possessed >of a odd version of The Oedipus Complex. But what happens if the "real" >child returns (recovers from sickness) and the android is dropped >(Oedipus-like in the fields)? An unredeemable sense of loss, of yearning >(by >the "android" for its "human" mother) continues through centuries, the >3-hour long film. In other words, the idea of the wall, of distinction, >separation never disappears -even in this most pyrothecnic of American >directors, whose major theme in many of his films is to make the audience >feel "human" emotions for alien "contraptions" (E.T., dinausors, etc.). > >All I am saying is that I do not think that the issue of the relationship >between human and computer is basically technical or even symbolic. These >are historical, technological and even cognitive developments to which the >human must develop a metaphysical response. > >As for the "ghost in the machine," which I discussed with Patrick in a >related post. The traditional, at least the Western/Christian, view is that >the ghost (the soul) is eternal, and the body (the material) is mortal, >ephemeral, the counter-argument being that they are the same (Jim's and >maybe Patrick's view). It seems to me facts point to a different direction. >It is the physical (the body) which is eternal. While the person dies, the >material of its body survives, in endless transformations. That is what >science tells us. What is actually mortal is consciousness (the soul). That >may be why, in Buddhism, Nirvana is a state of consciouness post >transformations (reincarnations), a little bit like "classless society" in >Marxism. > >Of course, Judaism has a different approach. Forget about the soul >(after-life). Deal with the ethics of individual, social consciousness >(e,g. >always health, parental respect, etc., coming before ritual, or code). > >Ciao, > >Murat > >On 12/24/06, Jim Andrews wrote: >> >>I'm going to reply to two emails in this message because there are more >>than >>two messages I'd like to reply to in my allotted two messages today. >> >>*************************************************** >> >> > Murat wrote: >> > When you say "when we do not have access to the source code, as >> > is the case >> > with living beings and proprietary software," are you not implicitly >> > assuming an equality, a democracy between living being and proprietory >> > software -in some way begging the issue? >> >>Perhaps you will find in my reply to Patrick, below, an attempt to address >>his points directly. >> >>Concerning the ethical status of software beings, Murat, we don't have to >>deal with it yet, except hypothetically, because there are none yet that >>are >>sufficiently sophisticated to challenge us so deeply. But there probably >>will be, eventually. Don't know when. Assuming we aren't all swimming with >>the fishes. We shall have to consider the rights and freedoms of sentient >>beings regardless of their race, species, or biological/cybernetic origin. >>I >>mean this issue will arise in courts of law, Murat, as beings or their >>representatives seek recognition for their status as sentient beings. >> >>Have you ever had the feeling, the realization, that you are a sentient >>being independent of your race, species, or biological/cybernetic origin, >>and what it might be like to concede/honour that dignity in another >>species >>or even a cyborg? It's a consciousness that many science fiction writers >>have explored. I think of the death scene of Roy, in Bladerunner/Do >>Androids >>Dream of Electric Sheep. Actually, I also think of it concerning my cat, >>but >>that's another matter. >> >>*************************************************** >> >> > Patrick wrote: >> > Jim, it honestly pains me to have to insist that yours may not be a >> > wholly fair dismissal of Searle's Chinese Room argument. >> > >> > Computing machines (von Neumann machines) adhere to rule sets, whether >> > or not there are higher-level "dynamic" languages (e.g., Ruby) built on >> > top of them. Further, one could easily change Searle's own rule set, >> > his assumptions, to assume that the ruleset is dynamic. His point >>would >> > still hold. And perhaps more importantly, what is that point of >> > Searle's argument? Searle's "point" is to show that consciousness is >> > something rather beyond the evaluation of a Turing test. More simply, >> > you can pass for understanding something, for being aware of and >> > understanding of language itself, just by appearing to be able to >> > manipulate it. Even simpler: syntax use doesn't imply mind. It's not >> > complete enough of an explanation for us so why would we make it a >> > standard for us? >> >>Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the entity, >>then >>ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical. >>But >>the same could be said of human cogitation, Patrick. Were we able to trace >>human cogitation in the brain, it would appear mechanical. How could it >>not? >>It is brain chemistry. >> >>It's important to realize that understanding, consciousness, sentience, >>and >>other such profoundly sentient notions are properties not of the >>micro-mechanics of the processing, but are more high-level. It doesn't >>matter whether the processing is carried out by one type of mechanical >>process or another, e.g., whether the processing is digital or via brain >>chemistry. Understanding and sentience are not predicated on a particular >>type of microprocessing, e.g., animal or human brain chemistry. >>Understanding and sentience are invisible at the level of brain chemistry >>or >>computer CPU activity. >> >>To point out that the processing is mindlessly mechanical in a computer >>and >>then conclude that this precludes understanding and consciousness, etc, is >>to deny its existence in humans as well, because our cognitive processes >>are >>equally mechanical at the micro level. How could they not be? >> >>ja >>http://vispo.com >> >>ps: Happy holidays to you, Murat and Patrick, and to all on the list. >> _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:45:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: The Second Coming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "The Second Coming" by W.B. Yeats (1920) Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? Merry Christmas! PP ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 03:32:33 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the entity, then ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical." Where? I've not seen him say as much. Regardless, neither the Chinese Room experiment nor any arguments in _The Rediscovered Mind_ appear to support that claim. Please forgive me for what could seem mean-spirited. I mean no harm or insult. It's just that it appears to me from your response that you have taken select pieces from a complex set of arguments responding to even more complex mathematical systems, oversimplified those select pieces, and reassembled them to derive orthogonal concepts designed only to support your beliefs about matters that share some terms in common with their origins. You do not appear to be arguing with Searle because you do not appear to me at least to be accurately paraphrasing even the basics. I do heartily encourage you to further explore and study the body of John Searle's work. His work is quite remarkable and quite accessible to non-experts. JL Austin I think would be very proud. Best of luck to you. Patrick Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:17:36 -0800 From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI >> Patrick wrote: >> Jim, it honestly pains me to have to insist that yours may not be a >> wholly fair dismissal of Searle's Chinese Room argument. >> >> Computing machines (von Neumann machines) adhere to rule sets, whether >> or not there are higher-level "dynamic" languages (e.g., Ruby) built on >> top of them. Further, one could easily change Searle's own rule set, >> his assumptions, to assume that the ruleset is dynamic. His point would >> still hold. And perhaps more importantly, what is that point of >> Searle's argument? Searle's "point" is to show that consciousness is >> something rather beyond the evaluation of a Turing test. More simply, >> you can pass for understanding something, for being aware of and >> understanding of language itself, just by appearing to be able to >> manipulate it. Even simpler: syntax use doesn't imply mind. It's not >> complete enough of an explanation for us so why would we make it a >> standard for us? Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the entity, then ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 03:21:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Christmas Gifts for the LIST In-Reply-To: <22684.8480.qm@web54609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Three Christmas gifts: 1- IHT.com You can download the stories in MP3 format, which can be useful if busy working, no time to read. I love it, to be honest. International Herald Tribune! 2: Democracy Player - www.getdemocracy.com 3: http://www.scmp.com/ (One way to learn about China - from those most afraid - wary, yes those living in Hong Kong!) South China Morning Post Happy Holidays! Alex --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:16:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Sell outs? In-Reply-To: <11d43b500612131244q19330082p8f56fb8db9d517a4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is a travesty that experimental poetry has retreated into a niche and is not read for fully. This is mostly the fault of experimental poets because of the publishing structure that exists they do not need to seek audience because sales do not determine publication- selling out? Who was a bigger sell out? Stein, Pound? Or Creeley? Poets need to survive how they do it is not our concern what matters is that they create good and great poems and challenge the existing structure/ -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of heidi arnold Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:44 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: angela -- first, a nod to your high horse -- hang on to it -- in answer to your question -- "what do you mean by 'selling out'" -- who was it that called clinton a panderbear? -- to write as a service of stenography for individuals who want their own style and views expressed in contemporary poetry in order to gratify their egos and wallets is selling out -- to allow corporate interests or upper class cliques to treat poets as stenographers -- when they can't find a mirror handy -- is selling out -- to allow these same corporate interests to leech off your entire poetic network because they find it entertaining -- is selling out -- to write to please the status quo -- is selling out -- to write to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community happy with their masturbatory inner lives is selling out -- and so on -- i am sure that everyone else could add to this list which is my infuriated hungover take on the issue at the moment --over to you, heidi On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux wrote: > > heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? > > i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the > US) is poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite > frankly pressing. > > i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're > poets would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a > perfect poem b/c they wrote it / say so. > > poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who > wants to read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should > be writing poetry. but they all should be reading it. > > (on my high horse) > angela > > On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: > > > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely > > "we're selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to > > start it, or what? > > > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com > > > > -- back to work > > > > cheers, > > > > heidi > > > > > > > > -- > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > -- > http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 10:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Fw: FREE HUGS in HOLLYWOOD - Yahoo! Video In-Reply-To: <003b01c726db$6c8cd250$0300a8c0@Weishaus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That was really heartwarming! The two hug-givers definitely surpassed their hug-quota that day! I wonder how many people were having a not-so-good day before meeting them.... Thanks for forwarding this! Tracey On 12/23/06, Joel Weishaus wrote: > > FREE HUGS in HOLLYWOOD - Yahoo! Video > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tom Tombes > To: Tom Tombes > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:04 PM > Subject: FREE HUGS in HOLLYWOOD - Yahoo! Video > > > Merry Christmas everybody! > > > http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=d6a6e5a577af0b83c1380d45ce7be57b.1213531&cache=1 > > > > Tom Tombes > http://tomtombes.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:08:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Strong JB Comments: To: patrick@proximate.org In-Reply-To: <458F8CA1.8070106@proximate.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just thought I'd mention this here first--- James Brown died last night....73 If you don't know his Xmas album, now you got two reasons to play it today... now back to your talk about Allen Iverson, etc... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 10:31:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Strong JB In-Reply-To: <4E4F2B35-7248-4FCF-91DF-50F1F61E4A9F@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed James Brown made two Christmas albums. I have over 70 James Brown lps and hundreds of singles by him, produced by him, by his spin off bands and etc etc One of the greatest musicans/composers/performers of the 20th century "I Can't Stand My self (When You Touch Me)" lp from mid Sixties is one of the the most revoluitonary records made--the kick off beats of sonic/word universes opening ever since . . . I don't think he is gone, just off stage-- the "cape act" has no end! >From: Chris Stroffolino >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Strong JB >Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:08:12 -0800 > >Just thought I'd mention this here first--- > >James Brown died last night....73 > If you don't know his Xmas album, now you got two reasons to play >it today... > >now back to your talk about Allen Iverson, etc... _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:59:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Strong JB In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" just heard. v sad. he had so so much life in him. james brown live at the apollo and tibetan chanting monks are my most faithful x-country driving music...for decades now. At 10:31 AM -0600 12/25/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >James Brown made two Christmas albums. >I have over 70 James Brown lps and hundreds of singles by him, >produced by him, by his spin off bands and etc etc > >One of the greatest musicans/composers/performers of the 20th century > >"I Can't Stand My self (When You Touch Me)" lp from mid Sixties is >one of the the most revoluitonary records made--the kick off beats >of sonic/word universes opening ever since . . . > >I don't think he is gone, just off stage-- >the "cape act" has no end! > >>From: Chris Stroffolino >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Strong JB >>Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:08:12 -0800 >> >>Just thought I'd mention this here first--- >> >>James Brown died last night....73 >> If you don't know his Xmas album, now you got two reasons to >>play it today... >> >>now back to your talk about Allen Iverson, etc... > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN >Shopping Sales & Deals >http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Re: Strong JB In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I also hold a treasured memory of James Brown headlining at the Apollo in the mid-sixties, especially the unforgettably unique close to his act; he fell to the stage again and again, each time an assistant running out to him in mock alarm, tossing still another silver or gold robe over him, and each time JB throwing off the robe, jumping up and playing a further encore. This continued for what must have been 30 minutes or more. The legend was that once JB had actually passed out from exhaustion during a performance and had then memorialized this occasion in future performances. This is ineradicable inspiration. On 12/25/06 1:59 PM, "Maria Damon" wrote: > just heard. v sad. he had so so much life in him. james brown live at > the apollo and tibetan chanting monks are my most faithful x-country > driving music...for decades now. > > At 10:31 AM -0600 12/25/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: >> James Brown made two Christmas albums. >> I have over 70 James Brown lps and hundreds of singles by him, >> produced by him, by his spin off bands and etc etc >> >> One of the greatest musicans/composers/performers of the 20th century >> >> "I Can't Stand My self (When You Touch Me)" lp from mid Sixties is >> one of the the most revoluitonary records made--the kick off beats >> of sonic/word universes opening ever since . . . >> >> I don't think he is gone, just off stage-- >> the "cape act" has no end! >> >>> From: Chris Stroffolino >>> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Strong JB >>> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:08:12 -0800 >>> >>> Just thought I'd mention this here first--- >>> >>> James Brown died last night....73 >>> If you don't know his Xmas album, now you got two reasons to >>> play it today... >>> >>> now back to your talk about Allen Iverson, etc... >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! MSN >> Shopping Sales & Deals >> http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 17:06:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:24:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <458F8CA1.8070106@proximate.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, Patrick, my arguments against Searle's conclusion are not original. Jason pointed out the 'system argument', and that is basically the argument I am making. We see it stated at http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/general/bldef_searle.htm , for instance. And it is stated, variously, on many pages on the Web. "A number of objections have been raised about his conclusion, including the idea that while the room is supposed to be analogous to a computer, then the room should also be analogous to the entire brain. Thus, although the individual in the room does not understand Chinese, neither do any of the individual cells in our brains. A person's understanding of Chinese is an emergent property of the brain and not a property possessed by any one part. Similarly, understanding is an emergent property of the entire system contained in the room, even though it is not a property of any one component in the room - person, book, or paper." So perhaps you could productively counter the system argument, which I stated also in my original reply to you. By the way, I don't believe Searle is a mathematician, and I don't see any complex mathematical systems involved in the Chinese Room 'thought experiment', contrary to your assertion. Also, the arguments against Searle's conclusion generally involve pointing out that it is he who is engaged in simplification. Merry Christmas, Patrick. Let's keep it friendly and to the point, OK? ja http://vispo.com > > "Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the > > entity, then > > ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical." > > Patrick Herron wrote: > Where? I've not seen him say as much. Regardless, neither the Chinese > Room experiment nor any arguments in _The Rediscovered Mind_ appear to > support that claim. > > Please forgive me for what could seem mean-spirited. I mean no harm or > insult. It's just that it appears to me from your response that you > have taken select pieces from a complex set of arguments responding to > even more complex mathematical systems, oversimplified those select > pieces, and reassembled them to derive orthogonal concepts designed only > to support your beliefs about matters that share some terms in common > with their origins. You do not appear to be arguing with Searle because > you do not appear to me at least to be accurately paraphrasing even the > basics. > > I do heartily encourage you to further explore and study the body of > John Searle's work. His work is quite remarkable and quite accessible > to non-experts. JL Austin I think would be very proud. > > Best of luck to you. > > Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 17:52:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Majzels Subject: "Bad Translation" In-Reply-To: <710FD4AE-16D2-483C-A5D3-377FEED9BCAA@gc.cuny.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good question, Cory. I'm not so sure we can call these bad translations. Certainly they describe things, dishes, directions, warnings... that are particular to a culture and language which is not the one you or I come from, and their strangeness may be an indication of their difference. The way these translations affect us (though we sometimes chuckle our way out of it) may be a kind of alienation affect that reflects that difference, and our discomfort with being illiterate in a strange land. I don't know that it's entirely possible or desirable to distinguish between found text and poetry, not to mention "great poetry", although it can be interesting and productive to think about these categories and their intersection, the slippages and erosion of such classifications. What is original poetry, or language? . As for the credit, perhaps it belongs to language(s) and their intersections. Robert On 23-Dec-06, at 10:32 PM, Corey Frost wrote: > I've done quite a bit of writing using mangled translations and, in > particular, the English used to decorate things in Japan, and what > I've always wondered is, at what point does bad translation become > great poetry? Who gets credit: the writer or the observer? In other > words, is "snake eating three ways" poetry, or found poetry? > > Corey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 03:46:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: FOR LOOOOOOOOOVE February Issue Theme MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please note February issue of The Other Herald will be themed: FOR LOOOOOOOOOVE. The writing we choose will be beyond cliche', so no worries, and be =20 sure to send us all of your best "love poems" ASAP. [If you wish for =20 anonymity, you got it.] However, as you know certain content may not be appropriate for =20 widespread "human consumption", ahem, rather than edit your work we =20 will likely reject it... if it is, how can we say, just "too much". We can't wait to read what you all have to say! Cheers! Have a great =20 weekend all. Here's to knowing there is a lot of love out there, T. F. Rice, for The Other Herald theotherherald@yahoo.com Quoting "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" : [Hide Quoted Text] New WNY Lit Paper Calls for Submissions: Heralding the Art of Words in Western New York... THE OTHER HERALD 12/09/06 Dear Poetics Members: Good Saturday Morning! I would like to introduce you to a new monthly literary publication: The Other Herald. This publication offers you as the writer/reader a friendly partnership with others who endeavor to connect/support/grow/showcase writers of Western New York and beyond. We are currently accepting submissions for our third and fourth issues, as per details below. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Other Herald publishes good POETRY, short articles on creativity and the writing life, WNY events listings, Woman Poet column by Virginia Lee Hines, fun writing exercises, unique submissions opportunities, Etsy.com artist of the month, writers' "field trips" scheduled, and much more! ------------------------------------------------------------------ Especially, it is our intention at TOH to reach those who may not already feel included in the ?writing community? as a whole, i.e. those are subject to the isolation of small-town living, some who suffer from intense self-judgment, those confined to nursing home residence, young adults who are often ignored by publishers and so need such encouragement to grow... Writers come in all varieties and enrich our lives in so many unacknowledged ways, so we at The Other Herald wish to ?herald? them monthly. Will you spread the word? Do you have something to add? Suggestions and other contributions to the publication, such as events information and writing exercises are always welcomed. Special thanks to Editor and support staff of TOH, who create this publication on a purely-volunteer basis. To all the writers out there... Write on! We are very much looking forward to hearing from any interested writers, not by reply to LISTSERV email, but to TOH email at: hvfNY@yahoo.com PLEASE NOTE: Submissions of any kind should be pasted into the body of your email. No attachments at this time. Excerpts of essays/stories may be printed, due to "cosmic" (space) limitations. If you wish to submit something graphical, please query first as to acceptable format. Include also your BEST contact information, including email address, and how you would like your name to appear in publication. If chosen for publication, you will retain copyrights to your work and be offered choice of extra copies or 4-month subscription. Writing is not usually edited, however, if something seems to be amiss, we will surely contact you beforehand. Kind Regards, T. F. Rice theotherherald@yahoo.com For sample issue, or to submit something by "snail-mail", please send a SASE to: The Other Herald c/o P.O. Box 172 Perry, NY 14530 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 03:55:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: Slouching towards Bethlehem In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0612241259j42e5f2cev341e4b8b722df6fe@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quoting Peter Ciccariello : > Slouching towards Bethlehem > > > -- Peter Ciccariello > http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ Re: Slouching towards Bethlehem Peter's accompaniment to the below poem seems quite fitting. There =20 seem to be many interpretations of this poem, online and otherwise, =20 such as with the best of poems. Difficult subject matter is always fun =20 to approach, and he has done it quite well. Art with words embedded in =20 it always catches my eye, in a special way... being a writer at heart. =20 -T. F. Rice P.S. Cheers! Have a merry time, everyone, with the "changing of the =20 years" in sight! THE POEM: W. B. Yeats - The Second Coming Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? 1920 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 21:17:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: OFFLIST - Re: Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0612251406y36c81430h8c5468ecf5d3fc05@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Fuckn Brilliant! Is there any chance that you might be able to offer some advice, minor assistance, on some work I'm doing. For example, I've just gotten two vispo poems into Otoliths - and while pleased, I am certain that my knowledge of such programs as Gimp, for example, leaves the work, however good, a shade away from the finished - really exquisiteness, of your own! Alex --- Peter Ciccariello wrote: > Prufrock 1915 scattered across > landscape > > > > > -- Peter Ciccariello > http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ > --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 21:18:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape In-Reply-To: <8f3fdbad0612251406y36c81430h8c5468ecf5d3fc05@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, I am an idiot! --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 02:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Heidegger's Hut MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Heidegger's Hut poised among the fourfold, the lure of new man, new development, and yet... closer to fourfold, among uncounted elements, unaccounted-for. For often I have approached this live or in dream to little avail; I would wait for clearing weather, for the world to happen, for technology to disappear at the base. Heidegger remains there above his troubled politics, of which there is no counting-four; we are close to hearth, we are embers among the dying worlds. Soon the snows will melt, glaciers disappear; the hut stays on a lure, overlooking resettled life, spaces a thousand kilometers long, an empyrean high. I cannot imagine a world such as this, life in hut corner, close to warmth, old wooden bench and bed, columnar spirit emerging to heavens' other worlds. We live in imaginary solace, his hut our own, released to the elements and beyond, transformed. There is no journey in the journey, no dream in the dream. One has life only for so much sorrow. Glow remains the last of our eyes. Hearth warms, beyond. ( images at http://nikuko.blogspot.com ) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:07:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: The Merry Cemetery, Sapanta, Romania Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, Theory and Writing , webartery@yahoogroups.com, ubuweb@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed (here's a couple mini-documentary podcasts from CamillE BacoS on =20 Citadel of Sepia, there's a lot more material but for those who have =20 never heard of or visited the Merry Cemetery, this will take you =20 there. ~mIEKAL) I was smiling. There=92s nothing wrong with smiling, is there? But what =20= about if you=92re in a cemetery & these are written on the cross of the =20= people who passed away? This is how it is at Merry Cemetery a totally unique place situated =20 in Sapanta, county Maramures, NW of Romania. People=92s short stories like short fables, tragic stories are told =20 with humor. This is what this place is about & what makes it unique =20 is making fun-smiling about the end, our end & adding humor where =20 usually there is only tears, pain & black. I visited this place in the fall of 2004 & I had the opportunity to =20 interview the artist who=92s creating the crosses & the short poems. He =20= is the second generation of folk artists, the woodcarver responsible =20 for creating Sapantza=92s Merry Cemetery http://driftlessmedia.com/citadel/?p=3D12 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:40:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: MLA - need a place for thurs/fri night MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey everyone. My lodging for MLA fell through at the last minute. If you have a hotel room and wouldn't mind me crashing on the floor, I'll chip in; let me know at aaron@belz.net. Thanks! Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:02:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: reJennifer Bartlett Subject: SES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Excuse the shameless self-promotion. I've started writing a short history of my life as a New York City Dept. of Ed. Teacher on saintelizabethstreet.blogspot.com It's pretty scandelous! JB _________________________________________________________________ Experience the magic of the holidays. Talk to Santa on Messenger. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0080000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/santabot/default.aspx?locale=en-us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:42:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: evolution and intelligence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were we to create machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans possess. i am not particularly optimistic about what we do with human intelligence either. but i do think it's important that we be able to argue publicly about these and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread scientific concensus that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in its specification of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, nonetheless, it is profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even our future than myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we looked much the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the theory of the origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted than it is--particularly in the USA. the idea that it has been established that there are thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not is simply false. it is sad that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way that the theory of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. it may indeed turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't been established that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans are capable and computers are not. it is an open question. in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the scientific theory diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if it were true, we are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we are), but by our being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins and nature. we don't need to put our eyes out. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:44:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: <459814.1275.qm@web86001.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Palestinian women in Israel can vote, work, wear what they like, drive, are citizens--admittedly there is discrimination--where in the world do you not see discrimination so blame all the other countries, too.. On 12/20/06 3:44 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > Women in Israel are freer than anywhere else in the Middle East, indeed..= .as > long as they are not Palestinian. >=20 > Ruth Lepson wrote: thank you michael! she may b= e > right-wing but sure isn't in this article. > women are in prison in iraq, afraid to leave their homes--see article thi= s > week in boston globe. burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyo= ne > pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other mid= dle > east country.=20 > and it seems that only israel gets commented up on on this list serv--no > articles or comments abt how minorities are abused in other mid-east > countries, or abt darfur where there is a holocaust going on, or as I hea= rd > on INN yesterday there's a new repot that says 10 million female fetuses > have been aborted or newborn baby girls killed--mostly by being buried al= ive > or by having sand etc poured into their noses. or abt govt violence in la= tin > america.=20 > if left-wing has something to do w/ believing that every human being has > human rights & must be fed & given opportunities than let's think abt the > 75% of the hungry people in this world who are women and children. how ma= ny > jews are there in the world-- to be blamed for so many problems! > of course israel has done awful things, and peace is finally the only ans= wer > and of course war kills the innocent--now 80-85% of people killed in wars > are civilians--those who are the victims of the very regime the others ar= e > trying to overthrow. and regimes that take over through violence usually > turn into tyrannical govts. ok, I realize I'm lecturing and over the > top--better stop drinking coffee for awhile & get back to work--but to be= a > left-wing jew in the US these days is to see some contradictions. >=20 >=20 > On 12/19/06 3:25 PM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: >=20 >> Julie Burchill is a complete right-winger, the Kingsley Amis of her time= and >> sex. >> Anyway, no need to get huffy. >>=20 >> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >> Anyone heard of Julie Burchill, Guardian columnist who left the paper th= ree >> years ago ? Well, have a go at what she wrote at that time : >>=20 >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html >>=20 >> And I feel that my jewish identity was hurt both by the Soviet Union (en= d of >> one part of my family) and by the Third Reich (end of another part of sa= id >> family). "Hijacking" (if such be the case) seems a piece of cake... By t= he >> way, the moral downfall dates back to the first war in Lebanon (that's w= hen >> Shalom Ahshav, Peace Now, began). I'll keep doing my part to promote a p= eace >> settlement and a viable palestinian state AND I'll keep criticizing isra= eli >> government each time they play against peance and justice (note: and >> justice), AND I'll keep trying to figure out why this is so in the >> situation, as well as why palestinian authorities often do such stupid >> things (I'm NOT speaking about Mahmoud Abbas and the likes of him whom I >> admire and whose voluntarist optimism I feel compelled to share at least= on >> second thoughts - the first thoughts are utterly pessimistic) AND I'll k= eep >> saying again and again that many times antisemitism masquerades as >> antisionism. Well, I guess all that makes me a hijacked shtunk of some >> sort... or at best a yokel in the eyes of the righteous. >> whatever... piece of cake, I said... >>=20 >> Michael >>=20 >>=20 >> le 19/12/06 16:53, Roger Day =E0 rog3r.day@GMAIL.COM a =E9crit : >>=20 >>> I agree with Barry wholeheartedly. >>>=20 >>> I've posted this link before, but it's a nice little read: >>>=20 >>> http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html >>>=20 >>> "The Israel Lobby" >>>=20 >>> In my opinion, the wrong target is Israel. In my opinion, any lobby >>> determined to change the state of the Middle East should aim itself at >>> the US government which underpins the State of Israel with implicit >>> and explicit actions. For example, the Iraq Study Group recommended >>> talking to Iran and Syria. Given that talking to Iran or Syria is >>> inimical to the State of Israel's foreign policy, I do not think it >>> coincidental that Bush rejected this option. So, trying to influence >>> your own government's foreign policy would be a start, even to the >>> extent of trying to follow the USA's own interests in the Middle East; >>> but don't be surprised if this, too, is called anti-semitic. >>>=20 >>> Roger >>>=20 >>> On 12/19/06, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >>>> The only thing that could make me lose my reason sufficiently to suppo= rt >>>> this >>>> boycott is the abusive cry of "antisemitism" that rises up every time >>>> someone >>>> criticizes Israel, let alone suggests taking action against it. Nonsen= se. >>>> One >>>> of the things I can't bear about Israel is how it has hijacked my Jewi= sh >>>> identity. If antisemitism is on the increase in the world, as it proba= bly >>>> is, >>>> then I point my finger at the actions of Israel in recent years as cau= ses >>>> of >>>> this. (For what it's worth, I date the moral downfall of Israel from t= he >>>> election of Netanyahu as Prime Minister after the assassination of >>>> Rabin--as >>>> if the electorate was thereby supporting the cause of Rabin's assassin= .) >>>>=20 >>>> That said, I would not support this boycott because I have not seen >>>> anything to convince me that it will help strangthen those factions wi= thin >>>> Israel that are still working for peace. When South Africa was being >>>> boycotted, it was clear that those South Africans we wanted to support >>>> (e.g., >>>> the ANC) were in its favor. >>>>=20 >>>> "Michael A. SOUBBOTNIK" wrote: >>>> Ruth, >>>> I'm entirely with you on this. I belong to Shalom Ahshav, have always >>>> militated for a peace settlement based on a clearly defined, secure an= d >>>> viable frontier between two states and do not consider myself an >>>> insensitive >>>> hawk any more than you do. But these calls to boycot horrify me. There= is >>>> and there always was a left-wing anti-semitism, posing now as anti-sio= nism. >>>> Anyone caring for some measure of peace and justice in the region shou= ld >>>> stay well aware of this...and of the very peculiar history of british = left >>>> wing intelligentsia in that respect. >>>> Shalom. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> le 18/12/06 23:32, Ruth Lepson =E0 ruthlepson@COMCAST.NET a =E9crit : >>>>=20 >>>>> am sorry to write this & then disappear for a few days but am working >>>>> non-stop--but after reading this must say, please, what do you expect= the >>>>> israelis to do? esp now that the palestinian factions are fighting ea= ch >>>>> other? I know some on this listserv will be furious that I'm writing >>>>> this--I >>>>> got blasted, even abused, when I wrote when Israel invaded Lebanon--b= ut >>>>> it's >>>>> just an impossible situation--the israelis are tired, too, and want p= eace, >>>>> and they have rockets shot at them every day and tens of thousands of >>>>> extremists who want to see all israelis, if not all jews, dead--reall= y, >>>>> what >>>>> are they to do? there are about 40 terrorist attempts in israel every= day, >>>>> targetting civilians. the situation is so entrenched that unless the >>>>> international community comes in and helps create a peace on the grou= nd >>>>> it's >>>>> not going to happen. i am very left abt the US and have spent many yr= s >>>>> working as a volunteer for Oxfam--raising $60,000 from poetry reading= s! to >>>>> go to the poorest countries in the world and have given a lot of mone= y to >>>>> a >>>>> jewish org that is working in darfur, helping muslims as well as othe= rs >>>>> there & in 40 other countries--I don't mean to say I'm a particularly >>>>> moral >>>>> person, just to say I haven't been totally oblivious to suffering in = this >>>>> barbaric (and wonderful) world. peace. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 12/18/06 5:14 PM, "David-Baptiste Chirot" >>>>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Since the appearance of this last Friday in the Guardian, 20 new >>>>>> signatures >>>>>> have been added. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> another article on the Guardian's with information etc appears at >>>>>> http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6236.shtml >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> david chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and though= t you >>>>>>> should see it. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited = site, >>>>>>> go >>>>>>> to http://www.guardian.co.uk >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Israel boycott may be the way to peace >>>>>>> Friday December 15 2006 >>>>>>> The Guardian >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> There is a fragile ceasefire in Lebanon, albeit daily violated by >>>>>>> Israeli >>>>>>> overflights. Meanwhile the day-to-day brutality of the Israeli army= in >>>>>>> Gaza >>>>>>> and the West Bank continues. Ten Palestinians are killed for every >>>>>>> Israeli >>>>>>> death; more than 200, many of them children, have been killed since= the >>>>>>> summer. UN resolutions are flouted, human rights violated as Palest= inian >>>>>>> land is stolen, houses demolished and crops destroyed. For archbish= op >>>>>>> Desmond Tutu, as for the Jewish former ANC military commander now S= outh >>>>>>> African minister of security, Ronnie Kasrils, the situation of the >>>>>>> Palestinians is worse than that of black South Africans under apart= heid. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Meanwhile, western governments refer to Israel's legitimate right o= f >>>>>>> self-defence, and continue to supply weaponry. The challenge of >>>>>>> apartheid >>>>>>> was fought better. The non-violent international response to aparth= eid >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> a campaign of boycott, divestment and UN-imposed sanctions which en= abled >>>>>>> the regime to change without bloodshed. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Today, Palestinians teachers, writers, film-makers and non-governme= ntal >>>>>>> organisations have called for a comparable academic and cultural bo= ycott >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> Israel as offering another path to a just peace. This call has been >>>>>>> endorsed internationally by university teachers in many European >>>>>>> countries, >>>>>>> by film-makers and architects, and by some brave Israeli dissidents= . It >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> now time for others to join the campaign - as Primo Levi asked: "If= not >>>>>>> now, when?" We call on creative writers and artists to support our >>>>>>> Palestinian and Israeli colleagues by endorsing the boycott call. R= ead >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Palestinian call pacbi.org. John Berger Brian Eno Sophie Fiennes Ed= uardo >>>>>>> Galeano Reem Kelani Leon Rosselson Steven Rose Arundhati Roy Ahdaf >>>>>>> Soueif >>>>>>> Elia Suleiman and 85 others >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> John Berger and Michael Berkeley write at commentisfree.co.uk >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> While Mike Foster is right to point out (Letters, December 9) that = the >>>>>>> Balfour declaration of 1917 did not grant Israel its right to exist= ; it >>>>>>> also could not promise a Jewish national home, as he says it did, >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> it was not in its power to do so. The British government merely "lo= oked >>>>>>> with favour" on such an idea. More importantly, he omits, as many d= o, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> subsequent words, "... it being clearly understood that nothing sha= ll be >>>>>>> done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the exis= ting >>>>>>> non-Jewish communities in Palestine ...". It is impossible to say t= hat >>>>>>> those qualifying words have been observed. Malcolm Hurwitt London >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Get free, personalized online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandor= a >>>>>> http://radio.msn.com/?icid=3DT002MSN03A07001 >>>>>=20 >=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>> > > - >>>>> -- >>>>> --------- >>>>> Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus ma= il. >>>>> Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:46:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit it's not comforting at all & I don't understand why it wd be...globalization is making the divide btwn the rich & the poor greater...I once worked as a freelancer myself & know how hard it is On 12/15/06 9:28 PM, "Kate Easton" wrote: > -- on what basis do you say that the free market world is closed to the > working class? -- that's quite interesting -- for example among the > self-employed freelancers i work with -- most of them started in in-house > white collar jobs -- which is kind of working class -- so that there is a > direct route from working class to the kind of freelance variability and > flexibility that you describe -- indeed, freelance multitasking communal > work judged on its product originates in a kind of in-house discipline in > the ranks of corporate middle management > > -- it may be comforting to some to think that the workers are shut out of > upwardly mobile careers but that is sheer delusion -- come what may > > -- heidi > > On 12/15/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >> >> A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations in it >> (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in their 20's >> have >> a dif idea than previous generations abt what work is--at least those who >> are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot of >> people >> out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short periods then get a lot >> of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to work >> communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product not how they >> are >> in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they multi-task >> much >> better than previous generations yet can focus better than previous >> generations, demand extremely high salaries, expect to have 2 careers in >> their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't >> challenged >> intellectually. Of course working class kids may not have any of these >> opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out brakes. >> >> >> On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: >> >>> Reject All Philosophy >>> >>> all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege >>> >>> even this, because of it's exclusiveness >>> >>> but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 20:19:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: James Brown & Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary December 25, 2006 President and Mrs. Bush Saddened by Death of James Brown "Laura and I are saddened by the death of James Brown. For half a century, the innovative talent of the 'Godfather of Soul' enriched our culture and influenced generations of musicians. An American original, his fans came from all walks of life and backgrounds. James Brown's family and friends are in our thoughts and prayers this Christmas." http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/12/20061225.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:20:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: bernadette contact? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Does anybody have current e-mail or postal contact info for you-know-who? Brenda, Lee Ann, Lisa, anyone? _________________________________________________________________ From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:29:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: James Brown & Bush In-Reply-To: <349222.96959.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Makes sense, Dubya has lotsa good memories of blowing lines off James Brown vinyls. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:52:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Rilke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Rilke's Death from development, of angels, welkin reminders, of what might have been, here, among other valleys' roots, like magma, poured spirit one and then another; furious angels! invisible, whose arms illuminate the night harrowed from animals wounded, animals dying; among all orders, a command. With what might one counter the thin edge of the Real?; with what countenance?; with what countenance will Any listen? Multiples move, among multitudes; crossed by elk, by deer, by wolves, kestrel-binding holding fields (these wait for No One) What hovers, soars (these move for No One) ( images at http://nikuko.blogspot.com ) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:58:23 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 12/27/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone > pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other middle > east country. > Andrea Dworkin, who has (had) impeccable feminist and Jewish credentials, had quite a lot to say about women and Israel, and she doesdn't agree at all. Her very interesting take in an article in Ms Magazine http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IsraelI.html I'm with Mark here; this "equal time" thing is rubbish. A crime is a crime no matter who does it, and if Bob robs a house that doesn't absolve Ben. I seem to see an awful lot about evil Arab regimes in the press, so I don't know why it's claimed that they are never talked about. People sometimes seem to talk about nothing else. John Berger is one of my heroes ("Our Faces My Heart as Brief as Photos" is one of the most beautiful books I know). But that doesn't stop me feeling very ambivalent about the whole idea of an artistic boycott. I can understand the reasons why it might be suggested, but I don't know how it will actually make a difference (the cricket ban on South Africa _did_ make a difference, and did hurt South Africa, but how can this - not coming from a centralised world body, say - do the same thing or have the same effect?) And I'm not convinced it wouldn't be counterproductive. I can't get past the notion that art desires to communicate past all these barriers, and to close off its possibilities seems to me a terrible thing. Maybe it's expressive of how despairing artists feel, if they're prepared to suggest such a thing. All best Alison > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:08:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Ross Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Evoltional theory is culturally based in monotheism, which is what makes it falter and easy to attack... A less teleological approach is perhaps necessary. If you read Dawkin, one can quite easily replace the words pertaining to genetics with words pertaining to jesus etc... On 27/12/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were we to create > machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans possess. i am not > particularly optimistic about what we do with human intelligence either. > > but i do think it's important that we be able to argue publicly about these > and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread scientific concensus > that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in its specification > of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, nonetheless, it is > profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even our future than > myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we looked much > the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the theory of the > origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted than it > is--particularly in the USA. > > the idea that it has been established that there are thought processes of > which humans are capable and computers are not is simply false. it is sad > that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way that the theory > of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. it may indeed > turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't been established > that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans are capable > and computers are not. it is an open question. > > in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the scientific theory > diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if it were true, we > are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we are), but by our > being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins and nature. we > don't need to put our eyes out. > > ja > http://vispo.com > -- Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed that this message contains confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:53:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence In-Reply-To: <6fa91e5c0612270108ne2b5525ufcdd50f43250f52c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yes, evolutionists have a hard time steering away from teleological thinking, which is fundamentally religious. Harry Ross wrote: Evoltional theory is culturally based in monotheism, which is what makes it falter and easy to attack... A less teleological approach is perhaps necessary. If you read Dawkin, one can quite easily replace the words pertaining to genetics with words pertaining to jesus etc... On 27/12/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were we to create > machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans possess. i am not > particularly optimistic about what we do with human intelligence either. > > but i do think it's important that we be able to argue publicly about these > and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread scientific concensus > that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in its specification > of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, nonetheless, it is > profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even our future than > myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we looked much > the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the theory of the > origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted than it > is--particularly in the USA. > > the idea that it has been established that there are thought processes of > which humans are capable and computers are not is simply false. it is sad > that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way that the theory > of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. it may indeed > turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't been established > that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans are capable > and computers are not. it is an open question. > > in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the scientific theory > diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if it were true, we > are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we are), but by our > being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins and nature. we > don't need to put our eyes out. > > ja > http://vispo.com > -- Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed that this message contains confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 08:35:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Geodetic Alphabet, by J. Michael Mollohan Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As we wave goodbye to the z of alphabits by nick-e melville it's time to wave hello to the Geodetic Alphabet by J. Michael Mollohan. New series starting today at: http://www.logolalia.com/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ Regards, Dan Submissions of artworks based around the complete sequence of the roman alphabet which can be presented a letter at a time over the course of 26 days are invited. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:41:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Easton Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ruth, -- thank you for posting this -- yeah i agree with you on globalization had friends at the WTO protests in Seattle back then -- which may not at all be what you mean -- but globalization's effects on world poverty, i agree with you, are negative -- over one billion people live on less than $1 a day -- and the strengthening of international corporate ties just -- actively -- diverts resources away from them -- destroys the language which could describe all of it -- i apologize for my sarcastic remark -- i appreciate your posts on the list and am always glad to read them -- heidi arnold On 12/26/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > it's not comforting at all & I don't understand why it wd > be...globalization > is making the divide btwn the rich & the poor greater...I once worked as a > freelancer myself & know how hard it is > > > On 12/15/06 9:28 PM, "Kate Easton" < souvenirster@GMAIL.COM> wrote: > > > -- on what basis do you say that the free market world is closed to the > > working class? -- that's quite interesting -- for example among the > > self-employed freelancers i work with -- most of them started in > in-house > > white collar jobs -- which is kind of working class -- so that there is > a > > direct route from working class to the kind of freelance variability and > > flexibility that you describe -- indeed, freelance multitasking communal > > > work judged on its product originates in a kind of in-house discipline > in > > the ranks of corporate middle management > > > > -- it may be comforting to some to think that the workers are shut out > of > > upwardly mobile careers but that is sheer delusion -- come what may > > > > -- heidi > > > > On 12/15/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > >> > >> A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations in it > >> (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in their 20's > >> have > >> a dif idea than previous generations abt what work is--at least those > who > >> are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot of > >> people > >> out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short periods then get a > lot > >> of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to work > >> communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product not how > they > >> are > >> in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they multi-task > >> much > >> better than previous generations yet can focus better than previous > >> generations, demand extremely high salaries, expect to have 2 careers > in > >> their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't > >> challenged > >> intellectually. Of course working class kids may not have any of these > >> opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out brakes. > >> > >> > >> On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: > >> > >>> Reject All Philosophy > >>> > >>> all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > >>> > >>> even this, because of it's exclusiveness > >>> > >>> but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:41:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence In-Reply-To: <585525.21074.qm@web86007.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed What are you talking about? Evolutionary theory describes a mechanism, not a purpose. Mark At 07:53 AM 12/27/2006, you wrote: >Yes, evolutionists have a hard time steering away from teleological >thinking, which is fundamentally religious. > >Harry Ross wrote: Evoltional theory is >culturally based in monotheism, which is what >makes it falter and easy to attack... A less teleological approach is >perhaps necessary. If you read Dawkin, one can quite easily replace >the words pertaining to genetics with words pertaining to jesus >etc... > >On 27/12/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were we to create > > machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans possess. i am not > > particularly optimistic about what we do with human intelligence either. > > > > but i do think it's important that we be able to argue publicly about these > > and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread scientific concensus > > that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in its specification > > of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, nonetheless, it is > > profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even our > future than > > myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we looked much > > the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the theory of the > > origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted than it > > is--particularly in the USA. > > > > the idea that it has been established that there are thought processes of > > which humans are capable and computers are not is simply false. it is sad > > that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way that the theory > > of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. it > may indeed > > turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't been established > > that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans are capable > > and computers are not. it is an open question. > > > > in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the > scientific theory > > diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if it > were true, we > > are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we are), > but by our > > being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins and nature. we > > don't need to put our eyes out. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > >-- >Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute >in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del >destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per >errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a >terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. > >Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed >that this message contains confidential information intended only for >the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have >received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately >notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. >Thank you. > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:00:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Gallery 324 and Charenton Theater Company Present "Both Sides Of The Family", and Noah Budin, Dec 27, 28, and Jan 3-7 Comments: To: save the day Pi - Po MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Gallery 324 and Charenton Theater Company Present "Both Sides Of The Family", and Noah Budin, Dec 27, 28, and Jan 3-7 Both Sides of the Family a new play by Maryann Elder Goldstein additional material by Jeffrey Grover direction and=A0dramaturgical support =A0by Jacqi Loewy musical support by Noah Budin at Gallery 324 in The Galleria downtown, St. Clair between E. 9th and E. 12th (parking garage on Lakeside near 9th) CAST:=A0 Maryann Elder Goldstein=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Jeffrey Grover =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Performances are free, but seating is limited so arrive early. For more info call 216/780-1522 or 216-469-9160 or go to www.charenton.org This is the first in a series of one-hour long plays produced as CHARENTON Shorts. =A0 Summary: Both Sides of the Family is a funny, touching, but not "heart- warming"=A0series of vignettes and anecdotes about interfaith parenting, childhood and marriage. "She" is raising a Jewish daughter for her Jewish husband, although she is not interested in converting.=A0 "He" is the child of two Jewish parents and the father of two families, one Jewish and one Christian.=A0 Each reflects on and jokes about the complications and amusements of weaving, unravelling, and experiencing the diversity of their lives. About an hour long, the play runs without intermission, starting at 8 pm on December 27, 28, and January 3, 4, 5, and 6, and at 2pm on Sunday, January 7. These are free performances, so seating is limited. Come early to get a seat. Parking in the Galleria Parking Garage (off Lakeside between E 9th and E 12th) is $3 after 4pm daily, and FREE on Saturday and Sunday. DIRECTIONS From the east side 480 - 77 North - 90East - 2West (Lakewood) - East Ninth Street, left - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign) 90 West - 2 West - East Ninth Street, left - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign) From the Heights Martin Luther King Jr Blvd North - 90 West - 2 west - East Ninth Street, left - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign) From the west side 2 East - East Ninth Street, right - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign). Parking is Free on Saturdays, $3 after 4pm on Fridays. Go up the escalator or elevator to the FIRST FLOOR. Out of the elevator turn right and walk past the escalator to the Courtyard 480 - 176North - 90East - 2West (Lakewood) - East Ninth Street, left - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign) 71 North - 90 East - 90East - 2West (Lakewood) - East Ninth Street, left - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign) 77 North - 90East - 2West (Lakewood) - East Ninth Street, left - Lakeside, left - Galleria Parking Garage, right (if you get to 12th street you went too far - go around the block, right on 12th, right on St Clair, right on 9th, and right on Lakeside, and then right at the Parking Garage sign) By RTA Rapid From wherever you are go to the Tower City station and change for the Waterfront Line - get off at East 9th street, up the stairs, turn right on East Ninth Street (away from the lake, away from the R&R Hall) walk half a block to Lakeside, cross Ninth Street to your left, cross Lakeside, and half a block further on is the Ninth Street Entrance to the Galleria. If the weather's nice, you can also walk from Tower City across Public Square away from the Terminal Tower building you came out of (the building in which the RTA Rapid lets you off) and toward the BP Building. Walk east (that is, turn right just past the BP building) on any of Superior, Rockwell, or St Clair streets, to East Ninth. Turn left. From St Clair, it's right there; from Rockwell, one block, from Superior two blocks, to the entrance at East Ninth and St Clair. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:39:37 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Israel Bombs Anti-Semitism Out Of Lebanon December 18, 2006 | Issue 42=E2=80=A251 After decades of periodic conflict with Lebanon that cost thousands of li= ves, Israel successfully eradicated all traces of anti-Semitism from its = northern neighbor with a series of heavy bombing attacks in July. "Israel really turned us around on the whole Jew-hating thing," said Hezb= ollah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, shortly after a U.N.=E2=80=93= brokered ceasefire was declared on Aug. 14. "After destroying much of our= infrastructure and displacing nearly 1 million civilians, we've come to = respect Israel as a legitimate power and a beacon of democracy, and not a= pack of lying, usurping, hook-nosed dogs." Israel Bombs R NEW BEGINNINGS Now unencumbered by hate or bitterness, Lebanese men walk through the rub= ble of their former apartment buildings. The last-ever Israel=E2=80=93Lebanon conflict began on July 12, when Hezb= ollah militants launched Katyusha missiles into Northern Israel, killed t= hree Israeli soldiers, and kidnapped two others. Despite this initial suc= cess, Israel eventually prevailed in ridding the majority-Arab nation of = a pervasive prejudice, the roots of which extend to Phoenician times. Many in the international community were greatly surprised by the develop= ment. "We assumed this was just another regional war of attrition, a shor= t-term, semi-effective defensive measure at best, a conflict-feeding 'eye= for an eye' tactic at worst," French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Bl= azy said. "But we see that we were being far too cynical. It's basically = resolved now." Strobe Talbott, president of the Brookings Institution, a Washington=E2=80= =93based think tank, said that there was "very strong" evidence that not = only was a virulent anti-Jewish sentiment completely wiped out in Israel'= s bombing campaign against Lebanon, but so was any hard-line political op= position to Israel's existence or its annexing of the West Bank, Gaza Str= ip, and Golan Heights following the Six-Day War in 1967, and general ange= r over Israel's treatment of Palestinians. "It's remarkable to think that, had Hezbollah been capable of making surg= ical pre-emptive strikes against Israeli military installations and dense= ly populated urban centers, Israel would most likely be renouncing Zionis= m and abandoning the region at this very moment," Talbott said in August.= The bombings have had the most significant impact on Lebanon's youth. Man= y who saw parents and friends killed in the attacks said they will now sp= end the rest of their lives supporting Israel. "I was upset at first when a bomb destroyed my school and killed many of = my schoolmates and left me without legs," said Tyre bombing victim Sherif= a Ayoub, 14, as she wheeled down her rubble-strewn street. "But as the da= ys went on, and the bombs continued to fall, I began to realize that I ha= d spent my whole young life arbitrarily lashing out at a people I thought= I hated, when, all along, what I really hated was myself." Israel's crushing victory has led Talbott and other Mideast experts to sp= eculate that the nation may go on to bomb the anti-Semitism out of such h= ostile neighbors as Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen. On 12/27/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone > pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other middle > east country. > Andrea Dworkin, who has (had) impeccable feminist and Jewish credentials, had quite a lot to say about women and Israel, and she doesdn't agree at all. Her very interesting take in an article in Ms Magazine http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IsraelI.html I'm with Mark here; this "equal time" thing is rubbish. A crime is a crime no matter who does it, and if Bob robs a house that doesn't absolve Ben. I seem to see an awful lot about evil Arab regimes in the press, so I don't know why it's claimed that they are never talked about. People sometimes seem to talk about nothing else. John Berger is one of my heroes ("Our Faces My Heart as Brief as Photos" is one of the most beautiful books I know). But that doesn't stop me feeling very ambivalent about the whole idea of an artistic boycott. I can understand the reasons why it might be suggested, but I don't know how it will actually make a difference (the cricket ban on South Africa _did_ make a difference, and did hurt South Africa, but how can this - not coming from a centralised world body, say - do the same thing or have the same effect?) And I'm not convinced it wouldn't be counterproductive. I can't get past the notion that art desires to communicate past all these barriers, and to close off its possibilities seems to me a terrible thing. Maybe it's expressive of how despairing artists feel, if they're prepared to suggest such a thing. All best Alison > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 07:53:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Rilke In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What a wonderful prose poem to read first on a Wednesday morning, Christmas finally being out of the way for another year. Thank you very much. Alan Sondheim wrote: Rilke's Death from development, of angels, welkin reminders, of what might have been, here, among other valleys' roots, like magma, poured spirit one and then another; furious angels! invisible, whose arms illuminate the night harrowed from animals wounded, animals dying; among all orders, a command. With what might one counter the thin edge of the Real?; with what countenance?; with what countenance will Any listen? Multiples move, among multitudes; crossed by elk, by deer, by wolves, kestrel-binding holding fields (these wait for No One) What hovers, soars (these move for No One) ( images at http://nikuko.blogspot.com ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:27:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Ross Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061227093950.0563ca48@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A car is a mechanism, it takes me to a certain place, I drive it. theorise a mechanism, and you imply destination, or at least purpose. remember the cultural context of evolutionary theory (stovepipe hats, c.f. Larkin.. Nasty imperialist ideas c.f. Huxley and the dour protestant work ethic of factory owning gentleman pseudoscientists c.f. Engels) The big protestant J.C. Everpresent in the psyche of atheists in our still too masculine victorian worldviews. On 27/12/06, Mark Weiss wrote: > What are you talking about? Evolutionary theory describes a > mechanism, not a purpose. > > Mark > > > At 07:53 AM 12/27/2006, you wrote: > >Yes, evolutionists have a hard time steering away from teleological > >thinking, which is fundamentally religious. > > > >Harry Ross wrote: Evoltional theory is > >culturally based in monotheism, which is what > >makes it falter and easy to attack... A less teleological approach is > >perhaps necessary. If you read Dawkin, one can quite easily replace > >the words pertaining to genetics with words pertaining to jesus > >etc... > > > >On 27/12/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were we to > create > > > machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans possess. i am > not > > > particularly optimistic about what we do with human intelligence either. > > > > > > but i do think it's important that we be able to argue publicly about > these > > > and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread scientific > concensus > > > that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in its > specification > > > of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, nonetheless, it is > > > profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even our > > future than > > > myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we looked > much > > > the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the theory of > the > > > origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted than it > > > is--particularly in the USA. > > > > > > the idea that it has been established that there are thought processes > of > > > which humans are capable and computers are not is simply false. it is > sad > > > that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way that the > theory > > > of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. it > > may indeed > > > turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't been > established > > > that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans are > capable > > > and computers are not. it is an open question. > > > > > > in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the > > scientific theory > > > diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if it > > were true, we > > > are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we are), > > but by our > > > being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins and nature. > we > > > don't need to put our eyes out. > > > > > > ja > > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute > >in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del > >destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per > >errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a > >terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. > > > >Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed > >that this message contains confidential information intended only for > >the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have > >received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately > >notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. > >Thank you. > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed that this message contains confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:47:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence Comments: To: Harry Ross In-Reply-To: <6fa91e5c0612270827v42ef9fal23cf70602f061d9a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 27 Dec 2006 at 17:27, Harry Ross wrote: > A car is a mechanism, it takes me to a certain place, I drive it. > theorise a mechanism, and you imply destination, or at least > purpose. > remember the cultural context of evolutionary theory (stovepipe > hats, > c.f. Larkin.. Nasty imperialist ideas c.f. Huxley and the dour > protestant work ethic of factory owning gentleman pseudoscientists > c.f. Engels) The big protestant J.C. Everpresent in the psyche of > atheists in our still too masculine victorian worldviews.< This is simply the same old misunderstanding of what evolution is all about that the religious types always put forward: they cannot, and will not, understand the actual theory of evolution. They keep trying to say things such as that any mechanism requires a mechanic: if a watch then a watchmaker, if a design, then a designer. But in fact evolution is a random process, not a designed mechanism. It's an evolved mechanism, not a designed one -- or so we theorize. The evidence that we have argues overwhelmingly in favor of the theory, even though we have to admit we don't know all the ways the mechanism works because the time-scales on which the mechanism works is so much longer than any human point of view. Human knowledge is, of course, theory-laden. We do design cars as mechanisms that imply purpose and, sometimes, destination. But human- designed mechanisms are different in kind, not merely in degree, from the sorts of mechanisms we posit, such as gravity, electro-magnetism, quantum mechanics, Newtonian physics, and evolution, among many others, to explain why things in nature work the way they do. The notion that evolution is a discredited product of imperialist masculine victorian pseudoscience is a postmodern ideology, not a rational critique. Marcus > > On 27/12/06, Mark Weiss wrote: > > What are you talking about? Evolutionary theory describes a > > mechanism, not a purpose. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 07:53 AM 12/27/2006, you wrote: > > >Yes, evolutionists have a hard time steering away from > teleological > > >thinking, which is fundamentally religious. > > > > > >Harry Ross wrote: Evoltional theory is > > >culturally based in monotheism, which is what > > >makes it falter and easy to attack... A less teleological > approach is > > >perhaps necessary. If you read Dawkin, one can quite easily > replace > > >the words pertaining to genetics with words pertaining to jesus > > >etc... > > > > > >On 27/12/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > > i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were > we to > > create > > > > machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans > possess. i am > > not > > > > particularly optimistic about what we do with human > intelligence either. > > > > > > > > but i do think it's important that we be able to argue > publicly about > > these > > > > and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread > scientific > > concensus > > > > that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in > its > > specification > > > > of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, > nonetheless, it is > > > > profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even > our > > > future than > > > > myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we > looked > > much > > > > the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the > theory of > > the > > > > origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted > than it > > > > is--particularly in the USA. > > > > > > > > the idea that it has been established that there are thought > processes > > of > > > > which humans are capable and computers are not is simply > false. it is > > sad > > > > that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way > that the > > theory > > > > of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. > it > > > may indeed > > > > turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't > been > > established > > > > that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans > are > > capable > > > > and computers are not. it is an open question. > > > > > > > > in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the > > > scientific theory > > > > diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if > it > > > were true, we > > > > are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we > are), > > > but by our > > > > being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins > and nature. > > we > > > > don't need to put our eyes out. > > > > > > > > ja > > > > http://vispo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni > contenute > > >in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del > > >destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto > per > > >errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non > inoltrarlo a > > >terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. > > > > > >Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby > informed > > >that this message contains confidential information intended only > for > > >the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and > have > > >received this message by mistake, please delete it and > immediately > > >notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to > anyone. > > >Thank you. > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- > > > > > -- > Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni > contenute > in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del > destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto > per > errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo > a > terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. > > Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby > informed > that this message contains confidential information intended only > for > the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have > received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately > notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. > Thank you. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:09:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable here's the core paragraph from the Dworking piece Alison cited: "In Israel, Jewish women are basically--in reality, in everyday life--=20= governed by Old Testament law. So much for equality of the sexes. The =20= Orthodox rabbis make most of the legal decisions that have a direct =20 impact on the status of women and the quality of women's lives. They =20 have the final say on all issues of "personal status," which =20 feminists will recognize as the famous private sphere in which =20 civilly subordinate women are traditionally imprisoned. The Orthodox =20 rabbis decide questions of marriage, adultery, divorce, birth, death, =20= legitimacy; what rape is; and whether abortion, battery, and rape in =20 marriage are legal or illegal." Which basically makes the plight of women in Israel very similar to =20 that of than in traditional (i.e. most) Arab countries. Pierre On Dec 27, 2006, at 2:58 AM, Alison Croggon wrote: > On 12/27/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >> burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone >> pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any =20 >> other middle >> east country. >> > Andrea Dworkin, who has (had) impeccable feminist and Jewish > credentials, had quite a lot to say about women and Israel, and she > doesdn't agree at all. Her very interesting take in an article in Ms > Magazine http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IsraelI.html > > I'm with Mark here; this "equal time" thing is rubbish. A crime is a > crime no matter who does it, and if Bob robs a house that doesn't > absolve Ben. I seem to see an awful lot about evil Arab regimes in > the press, so I don't know why it's claimed that they are never talked > about. People sometimes seem to talk about nothing else. > > John Berger is one of my heroes ("Our Faces My Heart as Brief as > Photos" is one of the most beautiful books I know). But that doesn't > stop me feeling very ambivalent about the whole idea of an artistic > boycott. I can understand the reasons why it might be suggested, but > I don't know how it will actually make a difference (the cricket ban > on South Africa _did_ make a difference, and did hurt South Africa, > but how can this - not coming from a centralised world body, say - do > the same thing or have the same effect?) And I'm not convinced it > wouldn't be counterproductive. I can't get past the notion that art > desires to communicate past all these barriers, and to close off its > possibilities seems to me a terrible thing. Maybe it's expressive of > how despairing artists feel, if they're prepared to suggest such a > thing. > > All best > > Alison > > >> > > > > --=20 > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,since it is the merger of state and corporate power." =97 Benito Mussolini =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence In-Reply-To: <6fa91e5c0612270827v42ef9fal23cf70602f061d9a@mail.gmail.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That's the cartoon version, and has more to do with the use of the idea than the idea itself, something like using Einstein to back statements like "it's all relative." Darwin, for one, wasn't happy with "social Darwinism." Biological Darwinism, on the other hand, has been possible to explain more fully, but it has thus far been impossible to attack successfully, though it's of course possible for those coming at it with a warring a priori to deny it. Darwin's cultural context, by the way, was selective breeding. Note that he called his theory evolution by natural selection. It has survived the wider context of its time, when many misused it for their own purposes. Biological evolution is a pretty simple idea, and it assumes accident, not purpose. Populations that have a hard time rearing children to the age of reproduction tend to lose out to populations that have an easier time. Once child-rearing is over, say at age 40 for humans, the rest of the lifespan has considerably less impact on the passing on of genes. Genetic variation happens constantly--mutations, which are genetic accidents, are generated by the millions. Most seem to have no effect at all, many result in early death, and a few promote survival for that crucial 40 years. When conditions change a neutral mutation may suddenly promote survival in the new conditions (even a mutation with pretty nasty effects, like sickle-cell, may be passed on to large numbers because it conveys a survival benefit in a particular circumstance). Here's an example. Among most mammals the genes that produce the enzymes that allow milk to be tolerated switch off after infancy. Otherwise adult horses would nurse. But in some individuals the gene isn't switched off, which means they remain tolerant of milk as adults. A thoroughly neutral mutation until some humans started herding animals for meat, and, coincidentally, large quantities of milk became available to those who could drink it. In pastoral populations those who could tolerate milk found themselves with an enormously expanded protein supply, and in short order by evolutionary standards they survived childhood in greatly increased numbers and passed on the mutation to their offspring. Which is why the distribution of the mutation is uneven--in cultures that aren't recently descended from herders of goats and cows the percentage of adult lactose-intolerance is very high, and in cultures descended from milk-drinking pastoralists it's very low. This is an evolutionary change that's happened in the last 7000 years. Note that each population, the lactose-tolerant and the lactose-intolerant, has been pretty successful, but by different means. It's difficult to see how anyone could attach a purpose to this. It's also difficult to see a gender-bias at work. Whatever else gets said about this will be without my participation. I've used up my two messages. Which is to say, don't mistake silence for acquiescence. Mark At 11:27 AM 12/27/2006, you wrote: >A car is a mechanism, it takes me to a certain place, I drive it. >theorise a mechanism, and you imply destination, or at least purpose. >remember the cultural context of evolutionary theory (stovepipe hats, >c.f. Larkin.. Nasty imperialist ideas c.f. Huxley and the dour >protestant work ethic of factory owning gentleman pseudoscientists >c.f. Engels) The big protestant J.C. Everpresent in the psyche of >atheists in our still too masculine victorian worldviews. > >On 27/12/06, Mark Weiss wrote: >>What are you talking about? Evolutionary theory describes a >>mechanism, not a purpose. >> >>Mark >> >> >>At 07:53 AM 12/27/2006, you wrote: >> >Yes, evolutionists have a hard time steering away from teleological >> >thinking, which is fundamentally religious. >> > >> >Harry Ross wrote: Evoltional theory is >> >culturally based in monotheism, which is what >> >makes it falter and easy to attack... A less teleological approach is >> >perhaps necessary. If you read Dawkin, one can quite easily replace >> >the words pertaining to genetics with words pertaining to jesus >> >etc... >> > >> >On 27/12/06, Jim Andrews wrote: >> > > i am not particularly optimistic about what would happen were we to >>create >> > > machines with the sort of flexible intelligences humans possess. i am >>not >> > > particularly optimistic about what we do with human intelligence either. >> > > >> > > but i do think it's important that we be able to argue publicly about >>these >> > > and other things. after 150 years, there is widespread scientific >>concensus >> > > that while the theory of evolution is still incomplete in its >>specification >> > > of the nature, mechanisms, and timeline of evolution, nonetheless, it is >> > > profoundly more explanatory a theory of our origins and even our >> > future than >> > > myths that we were created 5000 years ago by God, and that we looked >>much >> > > the same then as now, yada yada. It is sad, very sad that the theory of >>the >> > > origin and evolution of species is not more widely accepted than it >> > > is--particularly in the USA. >> > > >> > > the idea that it has been established that there are thought processes >>of >> > > which humans are capable and computers are not is simply false. it is >>sad >> > > that so many believe the contrary. it is as sad as the way that the >>theory >> > > of the origin and evolution of species is rejected by so many. it >> > may indeed >> > > turn out that there are such thought processes--it hasn't been >>established >> > > that there are absolutely no thought processes of which humans are >>capable >> > > and computers are not. it is an open question. >> > > >> > > in both cases, it's widely believed that acceptance of the >> > scientific theory >> > > diminishes humanity. i don't think that's true. but even if it >> > were true, we >> > > are obliged, not by our seeking of perfection (if indeed we are), >> > but by our >> > > being seekers of truth, to discover the truth of our origins and nature. >>we >> > > don't need to put our eyes out. >> > > >> > > ja >> > > http://vispo.com >> > > >> > >> > >> >-- >> >Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute >> >in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del >> >destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per >> >errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a >> >terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. >> > >> >Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed >> >that this message contains confidential information intended only for >> >the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have >> >received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately >> >notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. >> >Thank you. >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------- > > >-- >Ai sensi del D.Lgs.196/2003 si precisa che le informazioni contenute >in questo messaggio sono riservate ed a uso esclusivo del >destinatario. Qualora il messaggio in parola Le fosse pervenuto per >errore, La invitiamo ad eliminarlo senza copiarlo e a non inoltrarlo a >terzi, dandocene gentilmente comunicazione. Grazie. > >Pursuant to Legislative Decree No. 196/2003, you are hereby informed >that this message contains confidential information intended only for >the use of the addressee. If you are not the addressee, and have >received this message by mistake, please delete it and immediately >notify me. You may not copy or disseminate this message to anyone. >Thank you. > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:44:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pierre and thanks Alison for this striking! article. i didn't know abt the pornography--so upsetting, tho w/ much of the rest I'm familiar. Am forwarding this to my Israeli cousins and to some left-wing friends & thinking abt it myself. Still, women can leave their houses and work and vote and drive etc--I'm not saying that then all the other things are ok. O= f course now in the US porn has become normalized in part due to some major networks. When I think of my given identity I think first I am a woman bec that defines me most. My thought abt porn is that it objectifies so by its very nature keeps us from seeing people esp women as fully human--before we even get into the violence issue, which may actually come in part from objectification. Yes, Pierre, of course you are right that the personal is the most political, the 'cultural' is female, the political male. Several yrs ago I emailed Adrienne Rich--see her great poem Yom Kippur 1984 (also in my anthology of poems from Sojourner) abt being in the world as a women/jew/lesbian, wanting to travel, feeling like the other. I had seen th= e remake summer movie of Charlie's Angels w/ some friends who sd afterwards that was fun, the women were powerful. But they were totally sexual objects= , I thought. So I asked AR, Do you feel happy that women have made such progress in certain areas in the US or upset that all over the world women are still treated unbearably badly & in the US in certain ways very badly? She wrote back something to the effect that one cd hardly be optimstic in a country w/ a regime that rules by violence & that her solace was to go to web sites every day of Israeli & Palestinian women working for peace. And she sent me to some of those web sites--they were wonderful but so idealistic/ wout a hope of actually making peace, it seemed to me, but mayb= e the act itself is essential. I know that I feel better when I am 'pro-active'--that awful word --& think I can do anything I want in this world & feel perky but I am more honest when I know I cannot & that I need to keep fighting for women's rights all over the world in this supposedly 'post-feminist' world. See Rich's still applicable great essay "On Lies, Secrets & Silence".I know that men I knew in the 60s are reading this post & I can't imagine what they are thinking! On 12/27/06 12:09 PM, "Pierre Joris" wrote: > here's the core paragraph from the Dworking piece Alison cited: >=20 > "In Israel, Jewish women are basically--in reality, in everyday life-- > governed by Old Testament law. So much for equality of the sexes. The > Orthodox rabbis make most of the legal decisions that have a direct > impact on the status of women and the quality of women's lives. They > have the final say on all issues of "personal status," which > feminists will recognize as the famous private sphere in which > civilly subordinate women are traditionally imprisoned. The Orthodox > rabbis decide questions of marriage, adultery, divorce, birth, death, > legitimacy; what rape is; and whether abortion, battery, and rape in > marriage are legal or illegal." >=20 > Which basically makes the plight of women in Israel very similar to > that of than in traditional (i.e. most) Arab countries. >=20 > Pierre >=20 > On Dec 27, 2006, at 2:58 AM, Alison Croggon wrote: >=20 >> On 12/27/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>> burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone >>> pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any >>> other middle >>> east country. >>>=20 >> Andrea Dworkin, who has (had) impeccable feminist and Jewish >> credentials, had quite a lot to say about women and Israel, and she >> doesdn't agree at all. Her very interesting take in an article in Ms >> Magazine http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IsraelI.html >>=20 >> I'm with Mark here; this "equal time" thing is rubbish. A crime is a >> crime no matter who does it, and if Bob robs a house that doesn't >> absolve Ben. I seem to see an awful lot about evil Arab regimes in >> the press, so I don't know why it's claimed that they are never talked >> about. People sometimes seem to talk about nothing else. >>=20 >> John Berger is one of my heroes ("Our Faces My Heart as Brief as >> Photos" is one of the most beautiful books I know). But that doesn't >> stop me feeling very ambivalent about the whole idea of an artistic >> boycott. I can understand the reasons why it might be suggested, but >> I don't know how it will actually make a difference (the cricket ban >> on South Africa _did_ make a difference, and did hurt South Africa, >> but how can this - not coming from a centralised world body, say - do >> the same thing or have the same effect?) And I'm not convinced it >> wouldn't be counterproductive. I can't get past the notion that art >> desires to communicate past all these barriers, and to close off its >> possibilities seems to me a terrible thing. Maybe it's expressive of >> how despairing artists feel, if they're prepared to suggest such a >> thing. >>=20 >> All best >>=20 >> Alison >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > "Fascism should more properly > be called corporatism,since it is the > merger of state and corporate power." > =8B Benito Mussolini > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thanks very much, Heidi. On 12/27/06 9:41 AM, "Kate Easton" wrote: > Ruth, > > -- thank you for posting this -- yeah i agree with you on globalization had > friends at the WTO protests in Seattle back then -- which may not at all be > what you mean -- but globalization's effects on world poverty, i agree with > you, are negative -- over one billion people live on less than $1 a day -- > and the strengthening of international corporate ties just -- actively -- > diverts resources away from them -- destroys the language which could > describe all of it > > -- i apologize for my sarcastic remark -- i appreciate your posts on the > list and am always glad to read them > > -- heidi arnold > > On 12/26/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >> >> it's not comforting at all & I don't understand why it wd >> be...globalization >> is making the divide btwn the rich & the poor greater...I once worked as a >> freelancer myself & know how hard it is >> >> >> On 12/15/06 9:28 PM, "Kate Easton" < souvenirster@GMAIL.COM> wrote: >> >>> -- on what basis do you say that the free market world is closed to the >>> working class? -- that's quite interesting -- for example among the >>> self-employed freelancers i work with -- most of them started in >> in-house >>> white collar jobs -- which is kind of working class -- so that there is >> a >>> direct route from working class to the kind of freelance variability and >>> flexibility that you describe -- indeed, freelance multitasking communal >> >>> work judged on its product originates in a kind of in-house discipline >> in >>> the ranks of corporate middle management >>> >>> -- it may be comforting to some to think that the workers are shut out >> of >>> upwardly mobile careers but that is sheer delusion -- come what may >>> >>> -- heidi >>> >>> On 12/15/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>>> >>>> A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations in it >>>> (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in their 20's >>>> have >>>> a dif idea than previous generations abt what work is--at least those >> who >>>> are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot of >>>> people >>>> out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short periods then get a >> lot >>>> of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to work >>>> communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product not how >> they >>>> are >>>> in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they multi-task >>>> much >>>> better than previous generations yet can focus better than previous >>>> generations, demand extremely high salaries, expect to have 2 careers >> in >>>> their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't >>>> challenged >>>> intellectually. Of course working class kids may not have any of these >>>> opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out brakes. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: >>>> >>>>> Reject All Philosophy >>>>> >>>>> all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege >>>>> >>>>> even this, because of it's exclusiveness >>>>> >>>>> but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! >>>> >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:59:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: proposed journals Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have three ideas for web journals I'm considering launching, but, I wanted to get some sense of the potential author pool I might expect to be able to draw from. Please take a moment to review the following proposals and reply directly to me at dwaber@logolalia.com if you already have suitable material, or, are interested enough to produce some new material appropriate to the focus of one or more of these. Thank you in advance for your time. 1) Close Readings -- Pick a poem, any poem, and go through it with a fine-toothed mental comb and share your understandings/observations/criticism. For an archetypal example of what I'd be looking for, please see Charles Alexander's close reading of Elizbeth Bishop posted to the SUNY-Buffalo Poetics list in April of this year at http://tinyurl.com/w3elu 2) Instantiation -- I'd be looking to publish statements of poetics, manifestos, mission statements, or even loosely structured goals for the pieces side-by-side with examples of poems which realize (or attempt to realize) the statements. 3) subgenre -- And for this one I'm not really looking for authors, I'm looking for editors willing to provide content in their chosen narrowed range. I am open to a nearly unlimited set of narrowed ranges--if what you do puts in you contact with a steady stream of some particular kind of poem and you feel you could manage to select one for featuring every month or so, then I'm looking for you. As a starting point, consider the following: concrete poetry, visual poetry, lyric poetry, formal poetry, haiku, doggerel, digital poetry, poetry in translation, language poetry. But do not be limited by these. Your ability to provide an example a month is sufficient to declare it a viable category. I have the resources to do all of the above if the interest is there. If the interest is not there, I'll cross these off my "would like to do" list and move on. There is no need to reply if you just want to express interest in being a reader of these journals--if they come to pass I'll make regular announcements to these lists. At this time I'm only looking for people interested in the possibilities of providing content. Please feel free to forward this email on to any people or lists you feel would be interested. Regards, Dan dwaber@logolalia.com http://www.logolalia.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:12:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Ctrl+C MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ctrl+C A collaborative image poem - mez & ciccariello ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:27:04 -0800 Reply-To: layne@whiteowlweb.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Subject: Re: Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fantastic work. I went through your entire website, also saw more of = your beautiful images on your blog. The "g dying" knocked me out. I = also do web design; I found the simple elegance of your site very = inspiring. Layne ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Peter Ciccariello=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 2:06 PM Subject: Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape Prufrock 1915 scattered across landscape -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:06:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: evolution and intelligence In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061227114629.0563a798@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Searle Chinese Room 'thought experiment' purports to illustrate that the Turing test for intelligence is insufficient, that something else is involved in intelligence that the Turing test does not acknowledge or deal with, and we can tell whether it's there or not by looking at the internal workings of the entity. I won't restate the CR 'thought experiment' or the Turing test but point you to them if you're not familiar with either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searle%27s_Chinese_room and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test . Searle points out that the scenario he sets up does not involve understanding of Chinese. Searle says that even if the Turing test is passed, there can be no true intelligence without understanding; the scenario does not admit of understanding existing anywhere in the scenario. I have elaborated, in various posts, on an objection to Searle's conclusion called the 'systems response' in the literature. It is the position that things such as understanding and consciousness are emergent behaviors of the whole system/brain. This position points out that the functioning of the brain, at a neurological, chemical level is as mindless as the Searle scenario, and that understanding and consciousness, etc, cannot be located in any specific set of brain cells or part of the brain but are properties of the virtual machine, as it were. What is a 'virtual machine'? Let me give you a distinctly unprofound example. Some friends and myself are recovering some computer poetry by bpNichol that he created with an Apple IIe in 1983-84. We have the DSK file from his project. This file was read by the Apple IIe and turned into the animated poetry. But of course hardly anyone has an Apple IIe anymore. Luckily, there are downloadable emulators of the Apple IIe that run on contemporary PCs or Macs. An emulator reads the DSK file and displays the animated poetry just like the Apple IIe did. The emulator is a virtual machine. It is 'virtual' because it is not a physical machine. It is a machine because it processes the DSK files just like the Apple IIe. So, you see, there can be machines that are virtual. And they can be very strange. We can, for instance, imagine a virtual machine whose code is not on the physical machine. Instead, the physical machine can contain code that writes the code of the virtual machine. Imagine, then, on the physical machine, programs that write or edit code that, when executed, creates the virtual machine. And the code of the virtual machine may contain code that can modify the physical machine's code. This is the sort of thing it means to say that things like understanding and consciousness are emergent behaviors of the overall system. Searle can of course be forgiven for being ignorant of this sort of possibility of computing. It isn't obvious. The idea is that consciousness emerges from a sufficiently complex system of self and world monitoring. In a sense, it is as tricky as formulating the mechanisms of evolution without introducing a designer. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 04:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Interview with author Colin Wilson at The Argotist Online Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu Interview with author Colin Wilson at The Argotist Online: http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Wilson%20interview.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 05:05:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to peace In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed while a cultural boycott may not have a great deal of appeal, certainly one is confronted with the question what to do in a non-violent way for peace Israeli and Palestinian peace activists, in environments hostile to them, are inspiring for their courage and insights--and their confronting hard truths of their realities--rather than bow to great pressures-- friends from other countries write and ask, what do americans, esp artists and writers think about this? do they all support the Bush government's position?--are they against war in Iraq but for it in Lebanon and Palestine? is Iran next--maybe with a nuke?--do you still have freedom of speech there?--etc etc etc--why don't more people speak out?-- the announcement of the building of a new settlement for the first time in 10 years against international law and against promise made to the US--doesn't sound much like a peace process (this isn't counting the huge numbers of illegal even under Israeli law settlements and proto-settlements that continually are erected, staking out land, or the "thickening" process going on in the already existing settlements) "There was no such things as Palestinians; they never existed." Golda Maier, 15 June 1969 interview, London Times (the library at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee is the Golda Maier Library; she lived here and attended school for several years) new Deputy Prime Minister of Israel, Avigdor Lieberman, long time advocate of ethnic cleansing, last week on radio called for the killing of every single member of the Palestinian government two new books i'd recommend, a video, some sites-- note the people involved in all listed here are peace activists and all but Desmond Tutu are Israelis no matter how dire and brutal the situation and what may well be on the way--these are people who still believe in and hope for peace-- they have the great courage to speak out in their country, with the hope others will speak out in theirs Bishop Tutu notes that in America many are scared to speak out what does that say about our country and its vaunted freedom of speech? ever since 9/11 so many reasons to play it SAFE (security, after all--above all--) a very slippery slope one day one may find oneself also asking "could you live here?"--(title of video below)-- "the first casualty of war is language"--in many different senses of the term--"casualty"--now known as "collateral damage" unless a solider-- recommended-- The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe (Oxford, 2006) makes use of recently available Israeli documents; 1947/8-the present The author is an Israeli historian and Senior Lecturer of Political Science at Haifa University, Academic Director of Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva, Chair of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies, Haifa He is an advocate of academic and cultural boycott an interview with him about the book as well as other writings of his can be found at http://www.zmag.org/ The Road Map to Nowhere Israel/Palestine Since 2003 by Tanya Renhart (Verso, 2006) "to maintain Gaza as a closed prison, transform the West Bank into a system of sealed enclaves and annex Palestinian land under cover of construction of 'Seperation Wall'" this is a follow up to Renhart's Israel/Palestine How to End the War of 1948 (NY: Seven Stories, 2002; 2nd edition) (the suggested ending being as near as possible complete cleansing of Palestinians from the land, creating a Greater Israel) Tanya Renhart is Professor Emeritus of Linguistics and Comparative Literature at Tel Aviv Univerrsity and guest lecturer at the University of Utrecht; regular columnist for Yediot Aharonot and contributor to Counterpunch at one point describes a peace march of Israeli and Palestinian women, many carrying signs. They are met with tear gas followed by an assault carried out by police on horseback weilding batons and clubbing everyone they can to the ground. Peace marches forbidden to be in the streets, or have signs--must stand on side of road quietly. five minute video with Israeli peace activists "Could You Live Here Reality in Gaza" http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15693.htm most densely populated area in the world, poorest or next to poorest population in Northern hemisphere the little girl may be easy to dismiss for some as insanely millions of children everyday under threat of attacks-- what is different is when you see through windows, over a roof and through a screened in fencing tanks sitting at the ready for an assault; a prison with armed guards so to speak and planes can be called in at a moment's notice now pilots no longer have to obey "Lebanon" procedure, (from first Lebanon war, not always observed) in which if a pilot saw civilians within 500 foot square area of target, not to fire; now fire at will since last summer's invasion of Lebanon- firing into such a densely populated area, held prisoner, no escape--"like shooting fish in a barrel" statement by Palestinian psychologist after studying one thousand children--psychological damage so bad many have lost the will to live in effect, they have already been killed-- so what does it matter then if their bodies are finished off-- they're dead anyway, right?-- the only places i have seen like this, minus the tanks and some of the fences, though not all--some American Indian reservations--the gardening and farming lands taken away, no water, trees all cut down for settlements-nothing left but despair-- "Apartheid in the Holy Land" excerpts from speech by Desmond Tutu, early december 2006, Boston, "Ending the Occupation" conference also at http://zmag.org/ read, listen and give some serious thought re peace and human rights and liberty-- including here in the USA >From: Pierre Joris >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Re :Re :Guardian Unlimited: Israel boycott may be the way to >peace >Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:09:10 -0500 > >here's the core paragraph from the Dworking piece Alison cited: > >"In Israel, Jewish women are basically--in reality, in everyday life-- >governed by Old Testament law. So much for equality of the sexes. The >Orthodox rabbis make most of the legal decisions that have a direct impact >on the status of women and the quality of women's lives. They have the >final say on all issues of "personal status," which feminists will >recognize as the famous private sphere in which civilly subordinate women >are traditionally imprisoned. The Orthodox rabbis decide questions of >marriage, adultery, divorce, birth, death, legitimacy; what rape is; and >whether abortion, battery, and rape in marriage are legal or illegal." > >Which basically makes the plight of women in Israel very similar to that >of than in traditional (i.e. most) Arab countries. > >Pierre > >On Dec 27, 2006, at 2:58 AM, Alison Croggon wrote: > >>On 12/27/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: >>>burchill is right abt women's rights & israel--anyone >>>pro-woman must agree that women are freer in israel than in any other >>>middle >>>east country. >>> >>Andrea Dworkin, who has (had) impeccable feminist and Jewish >>credentials, had quite a lot to say about women and Israel, and she >>doesdn't agree at all. Her very interesting take in an article in Ms >>Magazine http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IsraelI.html >> >>I'm with Mark here; this "equal time" thing is rubbish. A crime is a >>crime no matter who does it, and if Bob robs a house that doesn't >>absolve Ben. I seem to see an awful lot about evil Arab regimes in >>the press, so I don't know why it's claimed that they are never talked >>about. People sometimes seem to talk about nothing else. >> >>John Berger is one of my heroes ("Our Faces My Heart as Brief as >>Photos" is one of the most beautiful books I know). But that doesn't >>stop me feeling very ambivalent about the whole idea of an artistic >>boycott. I can understand the reasons why it might be suggested, but >>I don't know how it will actually make a difference (the cricket ban >>on South Africa _did_ make a difference, and did hurt South Africa, >>but how can this - not coming from a centralised world body, say - do >>the same thing or have the same effect?) And I'm not convinced it >>wouldn't be counterproductive. I can't get past the notion that art >>desires to communicate past all these barriers, and to close off its >>possibilities seems to me a terrible thing. Maybe it's expressive of >>how despairing artists feel, if they're prepared to suggest such a >>thing. >> >>All best >> >>Alison >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > >============================= > "Fascism should more properly >be called corporatism,since it is the >merger of state and corporate power." > — Benito Mussolini >============================= >Pierre Joris >244 Elm Street >Albany NY 12202 >h: 518 426 0433 >c: 518 225 7123 >o: 518 442 40 71 >Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 >email: joris@albany.edu >http://pierrejoris.com >Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com >========================= _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song. Get a customized station. Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:42:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent Nomadics Posts Comments: cc: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recent posts on Nomadics blog (http://pjoris.blogspot.com) Composer Wolfgang Rihm Interview Jawdat Said Sondheim's hut Whatever happened to the Wiggle Much? Guy Darol Agitateur Conseil =AB Place Emmanuel LEVINAS=BB Thomas Bernhard interview & may 2007 be a better year! Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,since it is the merger of state and corporate power." =97 Benito Mussolini =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 06:25:03 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Giant MLA poetry reading Comments: To: Discussion of Women's Poetry List , Brit Po , New Po , UK Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The giant off-site reading at this year’s MLA meeting occurs Friday, at 9:00 PM at the Philadelphia Art Alliance, 251 South 18th Street, near the southeast corner of Rittenhouse Square. Readers for the two-hour event include: Aaron Kunin Adam Fieled Sasha Steensen Dennis Barone Aldon Neilsen Bill Howe Bob Perelman Brent Cunningham Brian Stefans C. A. Conrad Camille Martin Carla Harryman Caroline Bergvall Cathy Eisenhower Charles Bernstein Christian Bok Eduardo Espino Elaine Terranova Ethel Rackin Evie Shockley Frank Sherlock Hank Lazer Herman Beavers Jena Osman Jenn McCreary Jennifer Scappetone Joan Retallack Johanna Drucker John Wilkinson Josh Schuster Barrett Watten Kathy Lou Schultz Lamont Steptoe Laura Moriarty Leevi Lehto Linda Russo Linh Dinh Loren Goodman Mark Wallace Matthew Cooperman Michael Tod Edgerton Michael Davidson Nat Anderson Nick Monfort Norma Cole Patrick Durgin Peter Middleton Prageeta Sharma Rachel DuPlessis Ron Silliman Susan Schultz Timothy Yu Tom Devaney Tom Orange Tyrone Williams Walter Lew Will Esposito Yunte Huang ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:00:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Java Bean Salad :: Xanax Pop, by Lewis LaCook Comments: To: webartery , rhizome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Java Beans is a component architecture for Java. It's finally a little later. Winter hits us strangely here on the Black River, green and snaked with disease. Everyone's coughing as they wait in line for the guillotine. My quills adrift in liquors distilled from everything else. I'd gladly trade my foreground with your background, if only a little later you'd hold me as I shook the rain from my head. Rolling off the hot tin roof, I'm a fool to believe that subclassing the atmosphere and parsing the distances between myself and other people will ever stop me from eating the centers from everyone I love. http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| New Media Poetry and Poetics ||http://www.abstractoutlooks.com || Abstract Outlooks Media - A New Vision for A New Web Hosting, Design, Development ||http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org|| Xanax Pop - A Bloge of Poemes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:49:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: New Innovative/Experimental/Post-Avant Wiki In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out a new wiki for innovative poetry. http://innovativeaudiences.pbwiki.com/FrontPage Add whatever you want. Bill Allegrezza ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:44:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: SubtexT SeattlE= Paul Hoover & Maxine Chernoff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with readings by Paul Hoover & Maxine Chernoff at Richard Hugo House on Wednesday, January 3, 2007. Donations for admission will be taken at the door on the evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30pm. Paul Hoover has published eleven books of poetry, most recently Edge and Fold (Apogee Press, 2006) and Poems in Spanish (Omnidawn, 2005), which was nominated for the Bay Area Book Award in poetry. He is editor of the anthology Postmodern American Poetry (Norton, 1994) and, with Maxine Chernoff, of the literary magazine New American Writing. His collection of literary essays, Fables of Representation, was published by University of Michigan Press in 2004. With Nguyen Do, he has translated an anthology of contemporary Vietnamese poetry, and the selected poems of the great ancient poet Nguyen Trai. With Maxine Chernoff, he has translated Selected Poems of Friedrich Holderlin, which will appear from Omnidawn in 2008. He is Professor of Creative Writing at San Francisco State University. Maxine Chernoff is a professor and Chair of the Creative Writing program at San Francisco State University. With Paul Hoover, she edits the long-running literary journal New American Writing. She is the author of six books of fiction and eight books of poetry, most recently Among the Names (Apogee Press, 2005), of which Cole Swenson said, "Among the Names [creates] a vast and layered network, in short, an economy. Exploring complexities of 'the gift,' Chernoff's is an economy of the uncanny- each exchange is strikingly new." Her collection of stories, Signs of Devotion, was a NYT Notable Book of 1993. Both her novel American Heaven and her book of short stories, Some of Her Friends That Year, were finalists for the Bay Area Book Reviewers Award. Her novel A Boy in Winter is currently in production in Canada by an independent film company. With Paul Hoover, she has translated The Selected Poems of Friedrich Holderlin, which will be published by Omnidawn Press in 2007. The future Subtext schedule is: February 7, 2007 Lindsay Hill (Portland) & C.E. Putnam March 7, 2007 Rob Fitterman (NYC) & Bryant Mason April 4, 2007 TBD May 2, 2007 Charles Alexander and Tim Risher June 6, 2007 Subtext's 13th Anniversary Reading - details TBA For info on these & other Subtext events, see our website: http://www.speakeasy.org/~subtext ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:49:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: "Frog-o-Mighty" by Edward Picot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Britain's Edward Picot posted the below to the Rhizome list (NY) today. = This is really quite a well-told little children's story (that I enjoyed = too). Better than TV. Edward made this with his young daughter Rachel. ja "You understand nothing of my schemes, Penguin..." A mighty tale in three chapters, featuring a megalomaniac frog, a = hypnotist penguin, two quarrelling chicks, a bemused goose, a plan so = fiendish that it's completely incomprehensible, a pot full of = shutting-up phrases and an insatiable lust for mints!=20 The perfect antidote to that just-after-Christmas feeling. http://www.edwardpicot.com/frog-o-mighty/ - Edward Picot http://edwardpicot.com - personal website http://hyperex.co.uk - The Hyperliterature Exchange ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 02:02:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Long blind wait MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Long blind wait A visual Field Poem -- Peter Ciccariello Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ Word - http://poemsfromprovidence.blogspot.com/ Photography - http://uncommonvision.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:10:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612241125y614944e9u3a335c41db845b1a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Murat wrote: > Of course, as you also suggest, on a practical level the issue > may not exist > yet; but on the level of anxiety, literature, it already is very cogent. I > agree with you "Blade Runners/Do Androids..." is perhaps the central work. > In the film Roy, in his/its last scene on the balcony, ledge is more human > than the humans -a self-awareness of mortality (not necessarily any > technological or mental feat) being the most human sentience there > is.Alsothe Ford character does escape (elope?) with the Sean > character, though it > is implied Ford himself/itself is an android. The day before Xmas, the Space channel ran three of the 'Planet of the Apes' films. I guess those would be the sci-fi pieces that play on the future and evolution in the prominent sort of way Bladerunner works with the future and AI. In those movies, the stature of the characters has nothing to do with whether they are human or ape but whether they act ethically and can perceive in others, be they ape or human, whether they are trustworthy. > Despite all this, in the film an idea of "irreducible" > distinction is also a > constant, revolving around the "eye" tests. > > In some ways, if one follows your point of view, assuming the difference > between computer/machine and human to be a continuum, then, the issue > becomes basically the same as the controversy around traditional and gay > marriages. The "future" history of Humanoid liberation becomes part of the > history of gay liberation. Possibly. It is not uncommon in literature, film, or poetry for the audience to be shown 'the outsider' acting in good faith as a moral agent, earning our sympathy. Probably dramas of this nature have gone a long way to changing the way many people feel. > I would like to bring another film which has a lot say about the issue, > Spielberg/Kubrick's A.I. In that film all the technical problems are > solved. One is even able to create children who "feel" love, even > possessed > of a odd version of The Oedipus Complex. But what happens if the "real" > child returns (recovers from sickness) and the android is dropped > (Oedipus-like in the fields)? An unredeemable sense of loss, of > yearning (by > the "android" for its "human" mother) continues through centuries, the > 3-hour long film. In other words, the idea of the wall, of distinction, > separation never disappears -even in this most pyrothecnic of American > directors, whose major theme in many of his films is to make the audience > feel "human" emotions for alien "contraptions" (E.T., dinausors, etc.). Apologies; I haven't seen it. I saw E.T. I remember when I saw Men In Black. I was living in Seattle (I'm from Canada). It seems many people didn't see it as playing on USAmerican attitudes to foreigners, but surely it was. We don't have to have Martians to have aliens. > All I am saying is that I do not think that the issue of the relationship > between human and computer is basically technical or even symbolic. These > are historical, technological and even cognitive developments to which the > human must develop a metaphysical response. Yes. > As for the "ghost in the machine," which I discussed with Patrick in a > related post. The traditional, at least the Western/Christian, > view is that > the ghost (the soul) is eternal, and the body (the material) is mortal, > ephemeral, the counter-argument being that they are the same (Jim's and > maybe Patrick's view). Actually, my feeling is that I don't know if anything lives forever. To wonder about this question is something we might share with just about every sentient being that has ever been. Ones that die, in any case. To wonder what becomes of us after we die. This sort of wondering is what lives as long as sentient beings live and die. It is our own experience but everyone has it. Which is to say it is part of what being a mortal sentient being involves, whether one is human or from the furthest star. Should sentient beings be created from software, I suspect they also would wonder about life and death. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 04:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: mountain wire bird sutra and fourfold holding sutra MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed mountain wire bird sutra and fourfold holding sutra female kestrel devouring mouse on high tension cable with mountain background, mountain and kestrel speak, we've had enough of suffering, we've had enough of extinctions, ground zero of suffering, zero ground of extinctions http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNaLA5TpQs4 world-vector held up and down Your Violent love gives earnest to empyrean with resounding Truth "I have just passed beneath the ancient covered bridge that leads towards the station. I went there purposely, Beloved, to be sure of walking where once your feet alit with pleasure and gentle curiosity. Oh, to think they came my way!" (Rilke, trans. Browner) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYRbPAuwxwQ now they spoke like this - "they my wire holding sutra Rilke, came holding sutra mountain way!" and kestrel fourfold wire kestrel kestrel bird sutra on sutra fourfold on on and mouse cable kestrel wire mountain female cable tension holding wire fourfold tension mountain mouse sutra sutra on background, with female and kestrel mountain and high holding sutra cable kestrel background, devouring holding on kestrel speak, cable female devouring background, had kestrel on kestrel cable had enough mountain mouse high speak, suffering, we've tension on mountain suffering, suffering, mountain high with enough enough enough mountain cable speak, enough had kestrel with and had extinctions, suffering, mountain background, of ground extinctions, we've mountain we've extinctions, of had kestrel kestrel had suffering, zero of kestrel of of ground of had had ground of suffering, we've had enough ground extinctions ground of we've suffering, world-vector ground enough suffering, ground world-vector world-vector of we've of extinctions and extinctions extinctions, enough zero and and zero of zero held Your held zero ground extinctions Violent Your of zero zero down gives and zero suffering, up earnest love suffering, gives empyrean Your of of Your with to held of up empyrean resounding love and and world-vector earnest " now they spoke like this - "I with and world-vector Violent Truth have earnest up and with passed Truth Violent and earnest just passed empyrean down love "I the have gives Violent with ancient ancient resounding love to beneath bridge passed to earnest have that bridge "I earnest resounding covered towards the with with beneath the leads just with just leads I covered "I "I bridge went the beneath "I the I there that just passed towards Beloved, went ancient passed bridge purposely, to towards beneath ancient went be purposely, bridge the the be sure I covered that Beloved, walking to towards bridge went walking walking there that station. sure your sure station. towards to your your Beloved, the there once with walking went I of with alit be went to alit and once purposely, purposely, your gentle pleasure of Beloved, walking and Oh, feet be sure with to gentle where be your to think with of where gentle came to your walking with came my and once feet think Rilke, they alit your curiosity. Rilke, Rilke, curiosity. feet pleasure my my and with think to pleasure Rilke, curiosity. gentle way!" they curiosity. they to to way!" to way!" came came came way!" and and Rilke, " now he spoke like this - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:51:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Globalization? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When did Globalization and Exploitation not exist? For 3.4 Million years people have been migrating,conquering and exploiting- diseases have been decimatng people, languages have been dieing and people have been exploited this is the human condition; or is evolution no longer politically correct? Do we have to pretend that we are not beneficiaries of Globalization? All people alive today are beneficiaries of someone elses' exploitation. You can delude yourself into believing it is is not so but we are. Europe's seed money (all of it) came from Peruvian, Bolivian and Mexican metals torn from the ground using Native slave labor. Much of the Arab world's riches before Oil came from the Slave Trade slavery built Baghdad, Granada and Cairo. The Riches of the USA come from Chattel slavery and Native Genocide- this is the way the world has worked since the Cro Magnon's exterminated the Neanderthals. All the hand wringing about "justice" is usually by people who are in the elite; the fact that we are actually posting on the Buffalo List confirms that we are privilaged and rich because the poor are not able to get internet access. But the underdog eventually becomes the upper dog over and over again. In the year 1000 the leading cultures were China, India, Persia, Arabic, Maya and Malian; in 1900 the Europeans were the leading cultures and in 2100? I would bet on China and India. But you know history has a funny way of changing things- China is ascendent- India is growing, Europe and America are not procreating at any level the equilibrium will be restored because we will consume ourselves to extinction or irrelivance. World poverty is only worse now because we see it on television. Do you really think that poverty is worse now than in 1850? Or 950? Or 3000 BCE? No we just are aware of it more. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Kate Easton Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:41 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life Ruth, -- thank you for posting this -- yeah i agree with you on globalization had friends at the WTO protests in Seattle back then -- which may not at all be what you mean -- but globalization's effects on world poverty, i agree with you, are negative -- over one billion people live on less than $1 a day -- and the strengthening of international corporate ties just -- actively -- diverts resources away from them -- destroys the language which could describe all of it -- i apologize for my sarcastic remark -- i appreciate your posts on the list and am always glad to read them -- heidi arnold On 12/26/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > it's not comforting at all & I don't understand why it wd > be...globalization is making the divide btwn the rich & the poor > greater...I once worked as a freelancer myself & know how hard it is > > > On 12/15/06 9:28 PM, "Kate Easton" < souvenirster@GMAIL.COM> wrote: > > > -- on what basis do you say that the free market world is closed to > > the working class? -- that's quite interesting -- for example among > > the self-employed freelancers i work with -- most of them started in > in-house > > white collar jobs -- which is kind of working class -- so that there > > is > a > > direct route from working class to the kind of freelance variability > > and flexibility that you describe -- indeed, freelance multitasking > > communal > > > work judged on its product originates in a kind of in-house > > discipline > in > > the ranks of corporate middle management > > > > -- it may be comforting to some to think that the workers are shut > > out > of > > upwardly mobile careers but that is sheer delusion -- come what may > > > > -- heidi > > > > On 12/15/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > >> > >> A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations > >> in it (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in > >> their 20's have a dif idea than previous generations abt what work > >> is--at least those > who > >> are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot > >> of people out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short > >> periods then get a > lot > >> of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to > >> work communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product > >> not how > they > >> are > >> in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they > >> multi-task much better than previous generations yet can focus > >> better than previous generations, demand extremely high salaries, > >> expect to have 2 careers > in > >> their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't > >> challenged intellectually. Of course working class kids may not > >> have any of these opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out > >> brakes. > >> > >> > >> On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: > >> > >>> Reject All Philosophy > >>> > >>> all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > >>> > >>> even this, because of it's exclusiveness > >>> > >>> but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 06:55:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Xanax Pop is all grown up... Comments: To: rhizome , webartery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ...and now has its own domain. Please update your links and bookmarks accordingly: http://www.xanaxpop.org/ *************************************************************************** ||http://www.lewislacook.org|| New Media Poetry and Poetics ||http://www.abstractoutlooks.com || Abstract Outlooks Media - A New Vision for A New Web Hosting, Design, Development ||http://xanaxpop.lewislacook.org|| Xanax Pop - A Bloge of Poemes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:24:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: reading 1-4 at jushi's nyc , chocolate waters and susan maurer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed happy new year to all and do come ny 1-4 and hear chocolate amd me read . there is an open and jsuhi give out nibbles and wine . susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ From photos to predictions, The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes has it all. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:34:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Globalization? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Haas Bianchi wrote: > > All the hand wringing about "justice" is usually by people who are in the > elite; the fact that we are actually posting on the Buffalo List confirms > that we are privilaged and rich because the poor are not able to get > internet access. > -- No, this is nonsense. I live in a very mixed area of Brooklyn; there's a lot of poverty/projects around and a lot of wealth, and access seems pretty much universal. And as far as "justice" goes - your statement is an insult to the very real grass-roots organizations here, whether dealing with racism, over-development, jobs, or the war. And Brooklyn's hardly atypical on this account. The Poetics list is sterile in a lot of ways, but not this one. - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:46:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: January Events at PKP Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All events and workshops listed here are held at the Paper Kite Press and Wordpainting Studio in the Mary Stegmaier Mansion, 156 S. Franklin Street, 2nd floor, Wilkes-Barre, PA 18702 8 a.m. Prompt and a Coffee January 2nd =E2=80=93 January 12th @ 8 a.m. $2 per session Jennifer's in the studio writing, the coffee is brewing...come and join her before work to get some writing exercise in and your first (or third) cup of coffee for the day. A new writing prompt daily. Stay and write or get your coffee and prompt in a to-go container. Wordpainting =E2=80=93 Text and Image Studies Monday nights @ 6:30 p.m. Starting January 8th, $10 per session In these workshops we'll study spatial forms of poetry through the use of Tom Phillip's "A Humument" to create altered pages, collect ephemera (we'll take walks when the weather is nicer!) to use in word clusters, wheels and poetic forms, dig through the Dada movement, play with calligrammes, explore storyboarding as a storytelling method, look at the poem as a visual object--line breaks, indents, page placement, and projective verse, write flash fictions prompted from a swim through the magazine bin, and put poems on surfaces other than pages! Each Monday will focus on a different topic and method for exploring text and image. Attend one workshop or all of them as you wish. Third Friday Open Mic @ the Studio Friday January 19th @ 7 p.m. FREE (donations towards coffee always appreciated) Bring your poetry to share at our monthly open mic! January is an all-open mic event. Twelve open slots. Arrive a little early to sign up in advance. Snacks? Of course. Our featured poet for the February reading is Christine Gelineau. You can get a sneak preview of her work here: http://www.christinegelineau.com/ Organizing Your Poetry Chapbook Sunday, January 14th - 2 p.m. =E2=80=93 4 p.m. $15 Bring us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free! Oh, sorry, wrong copy...Bring us the poems you've always been meaning to consider collecting into a manuscript. We all have them! We'll work with you to put them in an order that works, suggest some places to submit your collection and/or give you tips for self-publishing and distribution. Brag Sessions! Last Sunday of Every Month =E2=80=93 2 p.m. Starting January 28th FREE (donations towards coffee always appreciated) Has your work been published somewhere really great? Want to have your work published? Come and share your triumphs and trials in the literary world with us at the studio. Learn where to submit your work from the successes of your fellow writers. Rent the Studio for Your Writing Group Does your writing group need a place to meet? We have a 40-cup coffee pot, a library of poetry, short fiction, prose and reference at your disposal, and plenty of tables and chairs. Email for rates and available times. We are not a non-profit, but we aren't making a profit either. Paper Kite Press and Wordpainting studio is here as a labor of love. No one is getting rich monetarily from poetry. If you want us to remain a touchstone for the literary arts in your community, support us by attending events and workshops, buy our poetry titles and spread the word about what we do! ARE YOU SUPPORTING SMALL PRESSES? If not, now's the time to begin! There are plenty to explore. Paper Kite, FootHills, Bowery Books, Red Pagoda and Etruscan Press are good places to start... If you are teaching poetry in your curriculum and would like some information on getting desk copies of any Paper Kite Press or Kite Tail publications, please email us. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:02:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Globalization? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The long view can be comforting, if in a grim way. Shorter term, globalization forces more and more in the less-industrialized countries off the land and out of farming and into favelas or illegal immigration. And billions suffer extreme poverty now whose great grandchildren may live in a more universally prosperous China or India, if environmental degradation doesn't become as catastrophic as our direst predictions. Compassion is certainly an issue, but a practical compassion--how to get from here to there with as little extreme suffering on the part of whatever others as possible. Mark At 09:51 AM 12/29/2006, you wrote: >When did Globalization and Exploitation not exist? > >For 3.4 Million years people have been migrating,conquering and exploiting- >diseases have been decimatng people, languages have been dieing and people >have been exploited this is the human condition; or is evolution no longer >politically correct? > >Do we have to pretend that we are not beneficiaries of Globalization? All >people alive today are beneficiaries of someone elses' exploitation. You can >delude yourself into believing it is is not so but we are. > >Europe's seed money (all of it) came from Peruvian, Bolivian and Mexican >metals torn from the ground using Native slave labor. > >Much of the Arab world's riches before Oil came from the Slave Trade slavery >built Baghdad, Granada and Cairo. > >The Riches of the USA come from Chattel slavery and Native Genocide- this is >the way the world has worked since the Cro Magnon's exterminated the >Neanderthals. > >All the hand wringing about "justice" is usually by people who are in the >elite; the fact that we are actually posting on the Buffalo List confirms >that we are privilaged and rich because the poor are not able to get >internet access. > >But the underdog eventually becomes the upper dog over and over again. In >the year 1000 the leading cultures were China, India, Persia, Arabic, Maya >and Malian; in 1900 the Europeans were the leading cultures and in 2100? I >would bet on China and India. But you know history has a funny way of >changing things- China is ascendent- India is growing, Europe and America >are not procreating at any level the equilibrium will be restored because we >will consume ourselves to extinction or irrelivance. > >World poverty is only worse now because we see it on television. Do you >really think that poverty is worse now than in 1850? Or 950? Or 3000 BCE? No >we just are aware of it more. > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Kate Easton >Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:41 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: A meaningful philosophy of life > >Ruth, > >-- thank you for posting this -- yeah i agree with you on globalization had >friends at the WTO protests in Seattle back then -- which may not at all be >what you mean -- but globalization's effects on world poverty, i agree with >you, are negative -- over one billion people live on less than $1 a day -- >and the strengthening of international corporate ties just -- actively -- >diverts resources away from them -- destroys the language which could >describe all of it > >-- i apologize for my sarcastic remark -- i appreciate your posts on the >list and am always glad to read them > >-- heidi arnold > >On 12/26/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > > > it's not comforting at all & I don't understand why it wd > > be...globalization is making the divide btwn the rich & the poor > > greater...I once worked as a freelancer myself & know how hard it is > > > > > > On 12/15/06 9:28 PM, "Kate Easton" < souvenirster@GMAIL.COM> wrote: > > > > > -- on what basis do you say that the free market world is closed to > > > the working class? -- that's quite interesting -- for example among > > > the self-employed freelancers i work with -- most of them started in > > in-house > > > white collar jobs -- which is kind of working class -- so that there > > > is > > a > > > direct route from working class to the kind of freelance variability > > > and flexibility that you describe -- indeed, freelance multitasking > > > communal > > > > > work judged on its product originates in a kind of in-house > > > discipline > > in > > > the ranks of corporate middle management > > > > > > -- it may be comforting to some to think that the workers are shut > > > out > > of > > > upwardly mobile careers but that is sheer delusion -- come what may > > > > > > -- heidi > > > > > > On 12/15/06, Ruth Lepson wrote: > > >> > > >> A PBS special on today's workforce sd there are now 4 generations > > >> in it (many older people can't afford to retire) and the people in > > >> their 20's have a dif idea than previous generations abt what work > > >> is--at least those > > who > > >> are technologically well educated do, which I realize leaves a lot > > >> of people out. Anyway they expect to work very hard for short > > >> periods then get a > > lot > > >> of vacation, to be challenged at work & be treated as equals, to > > >> work communally rather than alone, to be judged on their product > > >> not how > > they > > >> are > > >> in the workplace bec they can be anywhere now & work, & they > > >> multi-task much better than previous generations yet can focus > > >> better than previous generations, demand extremely high salaries, > > >> expect to have 2 careers > > in > > >> their lives, expect flexibility for parents, quit if they aren't > > >> challenged intellectually. Of course working class kids may not > > >> have any of these opportunities, esp in a free market world w/out > > >> brakes. > > >> > > >> > > >> On 12/15/06 3:24 PM, "Jesse Crockett" wrote: > > >> > > >>> Reject All Philosophy > > >>> > > >>> all philosophy is a construct of privilege, to support privilege > > >>> > > >>> even this, because of it's exclusiveness > > >>> > > >>> but it sounds good in a job interview, if done well -- cha ching ! > > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:34:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paolo javier Subject: 2nd Ave Poetry @ the BPC, January 5, 7 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline you are invited to a reading hosted by 2nd Ave Poetry (2ndavepoetry.com) featuring SEAN TUMOANA FINNEY THOMAS FINK RIGOBERTO GONZALEZ PAOLO MANALO DANIEL NESTER PURVI SHAH @ The Bowery Poetry Club January 5, 7 pm FREE 308 Bowery foot of first street between Houston & Bleecker F train to 2nd Ave 6 train to Bleecker | bowerypoetry.com -- http://blog.myspace.com/paolojavier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:13:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Globalization? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20061229115622.061fe300@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit One might ask whether or not the writer of this statement is primarily self-serving? I am not sure if HB wants us to applaud his wisdom, or, personally, that I should feel free now to blow up my neighbors' houses for the rumored gold and oil wealth under their foundations. Parenthetically - under this view - Bush and his cronies should only be criticized for confusing 'democracy' as the aim in Iraq (so stupidly utopian), and not just going direct to capture and assume entitlement to that country's oil reserves. I would have gladly put my 12 sons in the service of the Army if 'we' had only done that. Yes, HB, I agree with Alan Sondheim that the gist of this statement is nonsense. Thought I suspect on some odd level this appraisal is intended to be 'well meaning', I read it as in an easily gained - if not gratuitous - pessimism. "Disgusting" in a word: a life hating, toxic point of view that is often used to quell impulses towards 'good works' with a much more loving, compassionate yield. Certainly nothing that I want to ingest as a way of going into the New Year. No thanks! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ and Exploitation not exist? >> >> For 3.4 Million years people have been migrating,conquering and exploiting- >> diseases have been decimatng people, languages have been dieing and people >> have been exploited this is the human condition; or is evolution no longer >> politically correct? >> >> Do we have to pretend that we are not beneficiaries of Globalization? All >> people alive today are beneficiaries of someone elses' exploitation. You can >> delude yourself into believing it is is not so but we are. >> >> Europe's seed money (all of it) came from Peruvian, Bolivian and Mexican >> metals torn from the ground using Native slave labor. >> >> Much of the Arab world's riches before Oil came from the Slave Trade slavery >> built Baghdad, Granada and Cairo. >> >> The Riches of the USA come from Chattel slavery and Native Genocide- this is >> the way the world has worked since the Cro Magnon's exterminated the >> Neanderthals. >> >> All the hand wringing about "justice" is usually by people who are in the >> elite; the fact that we are actually posting on the Buffalo List confirms >> that we are privilaged and rich because the poor are not able to get >> internet access. >> >> But the underdog eventually becomes the upper dog over and over again. In >> the year 1000 the leading cultures were China, India, Persia, Arabic, Maya >> and Malian; in 1900 the Europeans were the leading cultures and in 2100? I >> would bet on China and India. But you know history has a funny way of >> changing things- China is ascendent- India is growing, Europe and America >> are not procreating at any level the equilibrium will be restored because we >> will consume ourselves to extinction or irrelivance. >> >> World poverty is only worse now because we see it on television. Do you >> really think that poverty is worse now than in 1850? Or 950? Or 3000 BCE? No >> we just are aware of it more. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:10:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: Globalization? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I often find the reactions to reality on the Buffalo list interesting with their refusal to accept what is true and to call facts nonsense. I would never argue against "good works" or a struggle for justice on a personal level, in fact in my own life I try my best to do both, but what is amazing is that comfortable poets like to lament "injustice" when we are part of the system and our actions cause more harm than good in so many cases. Please cut the bull about "I live in a marginal area" if you live in the USA, Europe or Japan your national luxury is the result of millions of others' poverty even if you are a well meaning liberal our system and frankly ALL systems are based on exploitation you cannot escape it. Here is a good example the next time a poet gets a Guggenheim fellowship he/she should give it back because that money was raised by Solomon Guggenheim a copper baron who used near slave labor in Chile to make his millions- yet many poets who are 'liberals' accept these grants- we are all part of a system. The level of responsibilty is only a matter of degrees but we are all responsible for what happens. It is only when there are many with power that exploitation has been reduced to tolerable levels. The problem is that we live in a monopoly world now and this is resulting in more pain not less. But competition from new emerging nations will end our monopoly before we know it and someone in China or India will be pulling the strings -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Vincent Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:14 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Globalization? One might ask whether or not the writer of this statement is primarily self-serving? I am not sure if HB wants us to applaud his wisdom, or, personally, that I should feel free now to blow up my neighbors' houses for the rumored gold and oil wealth under their foundations. Parenthetically - under this view - Bush and his cronies should only be criticized for confusing 'democracy' as the aim in Iraq (so stupidly utopian), and not just going direct to capture and assume entitlement to that country's oil reserves. I would have gladly put my 12 sons in the service of the Army if 'we' had only done that. Yes, HB, I agree with Alan Sondheim that the gist of this statement is nonsense. Thought I suspect on some odd level this appraisal is intended to be 'well meaning', I read it as in an easily gained - if not gratuitous - pessimism. "Disgusting" in a word: a life hating, toxic point of view that is often used to quell impulses towards 'good works' with a much more loving, compassionate yield. Certainly nothing that I want to ingest as a way of going into the New Year. No thanks! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ and Exploitation not exist? >> >> For 3.4 Million years people have been migrating,conquering and >> exploiting- diseases have been decimatng people, languages have been >> dieing and people have been exploited this is the human condition; or >> is evolution no longer politically correct? >> >> Do we have to pretend that we are not beneficiaries of Globalization? >> All people alive today are beneficiaries of someone elses' >> exploitation. You can delude yourself into believing it is is not so but we are. >> >> Europe's seed money (all of it) came from Peruvian, Bolivian and >> Mexican metals torn from the ground using Native slave labor. >> >> Much of the Arab world's riches before Oil came from the Slave Trade >> slavery built Baghdad, Granada and Cairo. >> >> The Riches of the USA come from Chattel slavery and Native Genocide- >> this is the way the world has worked since the Cro Magnon's >> exterminated the Neanderthals. >> >> All the hand wringing about "justice" is usually by people who are in >> the elite; the fact that we are actually posting on the Buffalo List >> confirms that we are privilaged and rich because the poor are not >> able to get internet access. >> >> But the underdog eventually becomes the upper dog over and over >> again. In the year 1000 the leading cultures were China, India, >> Persia, Arabic, Maya and Malian; in 1900 the Europeans were the >> leading cultures and in 2100? I would bet on China and India. But you >> know history has a funny way of changing things- China is ascendent- >> India is growing, Europe and America are not procreating at any level >> the equilibrium will be restored because we will consume ourselves to extinction or irrelivance. >> >> World poverty is only worse now because we see it on television. Do >> you really think that poverty is worse now than in 1850? Or 950? Or >> 3000 BCE? No we just are aware of it more. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Happy new year. Do you mean a machine, if complex enough, will inevitably ask the question, am I mortal, or what will happen after I cease to exist? Do we know (or how do we know) that imagining its cessation is part of the essence of being conscious" "I exist because I may cease to exist." Or: "I may not exist; therefore I am." Ciao, Murat On 12/29/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > Murat wrote: > > Of course, as you also suggest, on a practical level the issue > > may not exist > > yet; but on the level of anxiety, literature, it already is very cogent. > I > > agree with you "Blade Runners/Do Androids..." is perhaps the central > work. > > In the film Roy, in his/its last scene on the balcony, ledge is more > human > > than the humans -a self-awareness of mortality (not necessarily any > > technological or mental feat) being the most human sentience there > > is.Alsothe Ford character does escape (elope?) with the Sean > > character, though it > > is implied Ford himself/itself is an android. > > The day before Xmas, the Space channel ran three of the 'Planet of the > Apes' > films. I guess those would be the sci-fi pieces that play on the future > and > evolution in the prominent sort of way Bladerunner works with the future > and > AI. > > In those movies, the stature of the characters has nothing to do with > whether they are human or ape but whether they act ethically and can > perceive in others, be they ape or human, whether they are trustworthy. > > > Despite all this, in the film an idea of "irreducible" > > distinction is also a > > constant, revolving around the "eye" tests. > > > > In some ways, if one follows your point of view, assuming the difference > > between computer/machine and human to be a continuum, then, the issue > > becomes basically the same as the controversy around traditional and gay > > marriages. The "future" history of Humanoid liberation becomes part of > the > > history of gay liberation. > > Possibly. It is not uncommon in literature, film, or poetry for the > audience > to be shown 'the outsider' acting in good faith as a moral agent, earning > our sympathy. Probably dramas of this nature have gone a long way to > changing the way many people feel. > > > I would like to bring another film which has a lot say about the issue, > > Spielberg/Kubrick's A.I. In that film all the technical problems are > > solved. One is even able to create children who "feel" love, even > > possessed > > of a odd version of The Oedipus Complex. But what happens if the "real" > > child returns (recovers from sickness) and the android is dropped > > (Oedipus-like in the fields)? An unredeemable sense of loss, of > > yearning (by > > the "android" for its "human" mother) continues through centuries, the > > 3-hour long film. In other words, the idea of the wall, of distinction, > > separation never disappears -even in this most pyrothecnic of American > > directors, whose major theme in many of his films is to make the > audience > > feel "human" emotions for alien "contraptions" (E.T., dinausors, etc.). > > Apologies; I haven't seen it. I saw E.T. > > I remember when I saw Men In Black. I was living in Seattle (I'm from > Canada). It seems many people didn't see it as playing on USAmerican > attitudes to foreigners, but surely it was. We don't have to have Martians > to have aliens. > > > All I am saying is that I do not think that the issue of the > relationship > > between human and computer is basically technical or even symbolic. > These > > are historical, technological and even cognitive developments to which > the > > human must develop a metaphysical response. > > Yes. > > > As for the "ghost in the machine," which I discussed with Patrick in a > > related post. The traditional, at least the Western/Christian, > > view is that > > the ghost (the soul) is eternal, and the body (the material) is mortal, > > ephemeral, the counter-argument being that they are the same (Jim's and > > maybe Patrick's view). > > Actually, my feeling is that I don't know if anything lives forever. > > To wonder about this question is something we might share with just about > every sentient being that has ever been. Ones that die, in any case. To > wonder what becomes of us after we die. This sort of wondering is what > lives > as long as sentient beings live and die. It is our own experience but > everyone has it. Which is to say it is part of what being a mortal > sentient > being involves, whether one is human or from the furthest star. > > Should sentient beings be created from software, I suspect they also would > wonder about life and death. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:43:15 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Walker Subject: Re: Globalization? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please cut the bull about "I live in a marginal area" if you live in the USA, Europe or Japan your national luxury is the result of millions of others' poverty even if you are a well meaning liberal our system and frankly ALL systems are based on exploitation you cannot escape it. [HB] No. Most in-the-dark-all-cats-are-black / in-the-long-run-we're-all-dead arguments may be dispelled with a little light. So here. This one is actually Hirschman's futility thesis, very lightly disguised. (Cf his *The Rhetoric of Reaction*, published in the '90s.) Socio-economic systems do actually differ one from another, whatever their similarities; and the US, Europe and Japan do not actually form an homogenous socio-economic entity or, for that matter three separate but related entities in any way that would justify these sorts of statements. Of course, another way of looking at the issue of globalisation might be to google expressions such as 'peripheral capitalism' (the rich/poor divides within wealthy societies and their causes have much in common with the divides between wealthy societies and poor societies and some of the rural/urban divides within both) and/or 'cognitive capitalism' (how Marx's *general intellect* is exploited is a cause both of disempowerment within powerful societies and of disempowerment by powerful societies of less powerful societies). Or one could always visit a slum. CW _______________________________________________ 'It was really only in spelling out the decrees of the high command that we came to understand ourselves' - Kafka ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:10:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: 33rd Annual New Year's Day Marathon, MONDAY 1/1/2007! In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, We can=B9t wait to see you this Monday at the 33rd Annual New Year=B9s Day Marathon. You=B9re the best! Love, The Poetry Project Monday, January 1, 2007, 2:00 pm =AD some ridiculous hour of Tuesday, January 2, 2007 33rd Annual New Year's Day Marathon Reading $16 general admission / $12 students & seniors / $10 Poetry Project members Doors open at 1:30pm. Readings begin promptly at 2! With Philip Glass, Tracey McTague, Douglas Dunn, John Coletti, Erica Kaufman, Jenny Smith, Dael Orlandersmith, Edwin Torres, Christopher Martin, Anne Tardos, Rebecca Moore, Nina Karacosta, Bob Hershon, Filip Marinovic, Wanda Phipps, Shanxing Wang, John Giorno, Jen Benka, Tim Peterson, Michael Scharf, R. Erica Doyle, Corrine Fitzpatrick, Duriel Harris, Simone White, Joanna Fuhrman, Frank Sherlock, Todd Colby, Ed Friedman, Eliot Katz, Michae= l Cirelli, Steve Earle, Chris Rael, Joshua Clover, Lenny Kaye, Lytle Shaw, Donna Brook, Dale Sherrard, Murat Nemet-Nejat, John S. Hall, Eve Packer, Steven Hall, Brenda Bordofsky, CA Conrad, Patti Smith, Maggie Dubris, Evan Kennedy, Susan Briante, Simon Pettet, Merry Fortune, Nathaniel Siegel, Rodrigo Toscano, Stephanie Gray, Dan Machlin, Stacy Szymaszek, Anselm Berrigan, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Elinor Nauen, David Cameron, David Vogen, Urayoan Noel, Patricia Spears Jones, Carol Mirakove, Farid Matuk, Tracie Morris, Barbara Blatner, Elliott Sharp, Tisa Bryant, Jim Carroll, Brenda Coultas, M=F3nica de la Torre, Kimiko Hahn, Tony Hoffman, Amy King, Rachel Levitsky, Eileen Myles, Lee Ranaldo, Gillian McCain, Erika Recordon, Evelyn Reilly, Keith Roach, Renato Rosaldo, Lauren Russell, Brian Kim Stefans, Anne Waldman, Brendan Lorber, John Sinclair, Christopher Stackhouse, Dustin Williamson, Marisol Limon Martinez, Lourdes Vazquez, Judith Malina and Hanon Reznikov, Bruce Weber, Tony Towle, Janet Hamill, Billy Lamont, Jeffrey Jullich, Vicki Hudspith, Michael Lydon and Ellen Mandel, Guillermo Castro, Nada Gordon and Gary Sullivan, Peter Bushyeager, Cliff Fyman, Samantha Barrow, Kimberly Lyons, Arlo Quint, Regie Cabico, Ted Greenwald, Bill Kushner, Susan Landers, Bob Rosenthal, Thomas Savage, Harri= s Schiff, Jacqueline Waters, Max Blagg, Taylor Mead, Jim Behrle, Nicole Blackman, Tao Lin, Eric Bogosian, Robert Dunn, Mitch Highfill, Kazim Ali, Adeena Karasick, Edmund Berrigan, Jess Fiorini, Greg Fuchs, MacGregor Card, Drew Gardner, Bob Holman, Martha Oatis, Tonya Foster, Marcella Durand, Stev= e Cannon, Adam DeGraff, Karen Weiser, Prageeta Sharma, Yoshiko Chuma, Stephen Paul Miller, David Henderson, Jim Neu, Jordan Davis, Emily XYZ, Bill Berkson, Rich O'Russa, Sharon Mesmer, Don Yorty, Citizen Reno, Hal Sirowitz= , Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle, Bethany Spiers, Stephan Smith, Paul Vazquez, Marty Ehrlich, Erica Hunt, Dana Bryant, Penny Arcade, Katie Degentesh, Brenda Iijima and Paolo Javier! Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:47:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612291538l3e674b2bt43de2667546bf1d8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do you mean a machine, if complex enough, will inevitably ask the > question, > am I mortal, or what will happen after I cease to exist? I mean that if a being has consciousness of itself and he/she/it knows that it will die sometime in the future, it would probably wonder what happens then, yes. I indicated earlier I don't see why such machines may one day exist. They exist now, if you believe that we are, in a basic sense, machines, whatever else we may also be. > Do we know (or how do we know) that imagining its cessation is part of the > essence of being conscious" We don't, do we. I said a conscious being that knows it will die. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 02:41:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: two stories */breaking new ground/* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed two stories 1 tomorrow-more-yet. kill-die kill-die. ground-belong-you-me. pigeon feel- no-good wails place-play. about-about house-marry whose-that place-down place-down. taboo all-time. all-time no-like knife-screw screw-one-time. screw-one-time make-die dirty-too-much. bone bone. skin count-out come-up hang-up. long-long boss-boy. hot-work cock i-think. i-think half-half play whose-that. heart-jesus come-up. back-down-below big-town talk-box talk- box. look-out-long. long-long-man. not-enough. come-down count-out. fall- about walk-about down-below shark-man place-play sick-house screw-long kill. pussy-pussy snake-about good-time wishes long-time. house-sick you- me house-ghost fool-man boy boss-boy kill nothing long-time little-doctor fool-man. go-up work-night. ask. greasing. ask short-sweet-lemon ground- belong-you-me hang-up gold-money tomorrow- more-yet fall-about. not-enough long-long-man look-out-long come-down... heart-jesus. look-out push-me make boy. house-sick. think-think day-long mercy-mercy house-ghost. long round-wind sit-house how's-that how's-that. wails. pass-one-time loose. come-down. belong how-much nancy bulk-store lose mama knife-screw. cunt. long-long. long. day-long. work-night hot-work. gold-money. no-can bulk-store. black-cockatoo loose cunt lose. black-cockatoo. some-kind get-belly night nancy. know-talk round-wind. marry good-time. ring-belong- ear. no-like. talk-wind greasing short-sweet-lemon. wild-man sit-house. play. bottle-water dirty-too-much box greasing.. push-me. pussy-pussy. look-out. down-below. what's-the-matter box. you-me. know-talk. ring-be- long-ear skin. some-kind. night. marry. talk-wind. shark-man. get-belly. half-half. 2 ground-belong-you-me work-night. big-town half-half come-down he talk-box talk-box. count-out. some-kind get-belly black-cockatoo. black-cockatoo no-can loose long. day-long. cunt work-night good-time. all-time no-like place-down. make-die screw-one-time know-talk night nancy. no-like. talk- wind ask. short-sweet-lemon go-up long-time greasing. about-about wails tomorrow-more-yet. place-play. place-down ground-belong-you-me. feel-no- good whose-that all-time. screw-one-time. taboo house-marry kill-die cock dirty-too-much. place-play long-long-man. fall-about sick-house down-below shark-man kill-die. half-half. back-down-below hot-work. night. talk-wind. marry. ask heart-jesus come-down. bulk-store come-up. whose-that. i-think. skin cunt. mama how-much heart-jesus. come-down... hot-work i-think play hang-up. bone. bone long-long count-out look-out-long belong lose. snake- about walk-about she good-time kill house-sick long-time. kill. one-time you-me house-ghost fool-man look-out-long. little-doctor boss-boy fool- man. look-out round-wind. they sit-house. bottle-water greasing.. box play. look-out. your not-enough short-sweet-lemon. look wails. not-enough. pussy-pussy dirty-too-much pigeon wishes some-kind. box. ring-be-long-ear get-belly. you-me. what's-the-matter you knife-screw lose knife-screw. loose. round-wind long pass-one-time boss-boy. come-up skin. make day-long think-think nothing tomorrow-more-yet wild-man gold-money hang-up gold- money. fall-about. house-sick. long-long-man long-long. greasing mercy- mercy nancy bulk-store. how's-that. sit-house ring-belong-ear. marry shark-man. know-talk. push-me how's-that down-below. house-ghost. screw- long push-me. pussy-pussy. boy boy. +++ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 04:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: one this-loose. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed one this-loose. feel-no-good pigeon black-cockatoo. some-kind black-cockatoo. cranking- about fall-about come-down short-sweet-lemon more-better cranking-about long-long-man. come-down not-enough. count-out. no-like. hungry-more work-night black-cockatoo tomorrow-more-yet short-sweet-lemon more-better tomorrow-more-yet how-much sit-house. nancy. know-talk place-down. marry. talk-wind. all-time night get-belly short-sweet-lemon. play. wild-man no-know sit-house. all-time. screw-long glass-look-look. gold-money. work-night taboo taboo all-time. wishes work-night. go-up ask. work-night. greasing. ask. he bulk-store mary scissors ladder fool-man. come-down. belong belong come-down... skin. some-kind. night. loose. back-down-below big-town make lose mercy-mercy house-ghost. long pigeon feel-no-good black-cockatoo. wishes dirty-too- much box greasing.. push-me. dirty-too-much. bone ground-belong-you-me. little-doctor nothing she long-time bone. skin skin glass-look-look. high-water. work-night go-stand boss-boy. boss-boy. greasing boss-boy kill boss-boy greasing.. box push-me. sit-house greasing nothing kill-die. long-time fool-man boy boy pussy-pussy play. no-can your ground-belong- you-me hang-up talk-wind ring-belong-ear. no-like. come-down cunt. cunt. finish-time heart-jesus ground-belong-you-me. come-down. glass-look-look. place-down. know-talk good-time snake-about come-down... house-ghost. mercy-mercy long house-ghost. pigeon come-down... not-enough. small-papa i-think. i-think small-papa screw-one-time corner mary ladder back-down-below big-town talk-box talk-box. look-out-long. cunt gold-money dirty-too-much. make-die bone dirty-too-much. lose fall-about bottle-water loose marry round-wind. good-time. marry finish-time run-go corner ladder half-half. get-belly. long-neck half-half. shark-man. fool-man get-belly. half-half something-true long-long. long. day-long. get-belly. shark-man. screw-one-time. fool-man. go-up work-night. ask. greasing. he day-long. count-out count-out come-up come-up hang-up. hang-up. long-long long-long marry. shark-man. talk-wind. greasing. corner he mary small-mama heart-jesus. heart-jesus. look-out look-out push-me high-water. go-stand nancy. night know-talk nancy. good-time. high-water. some-kind. some-kind. hungry-more you-me you-me belt belt house-ghost house-ghost fool-man mission-boy mission-boy one-time place-play. count-out. how-much nancy how-much nancy bulk-store lose mama hungry-more you-me belt house-ghost small-mama tomorrow-more-yet. come-up. think-think come-up. i-think. push-me. look-out. scissors go-up kill-die. know-talk. ring-be-long-ear what's-the-matter box. down-below. you-me. long-time little-doctor she fall-about. not-enough long-long-man kill-die play long what's-the-matter know-talk. box. ring-be-long-ear you-me. long-long-man. long-long-man fall-about. kill-die not-enough play loose round-wind. marry think-think day-long think-think whose-that. knife-screw. lose. fool-man. mama mama knife-screw. knife-screw. lose. lose. mercy-mercy day-long scissors kill-die. ground-belong-you-me. nothing push-me make count-out talk-wind more-better about-about house-marry whose-that marry. talk-wind. long-long-man. not-enough. cranking-about ring-belong-ear. no-like no-like hot-work. gold-money. taboo all-time. all-time no-like cunt. hot-work. hot-work hot-work cock cock bone. one-time they they long-time. boy. house-sick house-sick. boy. short-sweet-lemon. wild-man pass-one-time half-half. long-neck place-down shark-man place-play place-play go-stand heart-jesus play small-mama whose-that. tomorrow-more-yet. play. no-know look-out. down-below. what's-the-matter box. you-me. push-me bulk-store. no-can black-cockatoo bulk-store. greasing.. pussy-pussy. night. night. loose. how's-that heart-jesus ring-belong-ear. no-like. something-nothing kill round-wind something-nothing sit-house round-wind sick-house kill. screw-long ask kill. run-away ask how's-that. shark-man good-time long-time. wishes house-sick finish-time run-go run-go greasing boss-boy kill something-nothing round-wind sick-house screw-long something-true day-long. long-long. knife-screw long. screw-one-time. your boy heart-jesus. look-out place-down long-neck shark-man loose round-wind. small-papa i-think screw-one-time make-die pass-one-time short-sweet-lemon pussy-pussy no-can bulk-store. black-cockatoo all-time sick-house wails. how's-that. sing-sing wails. pass-one-time sing-sing i-think. make kill. ask run-away how's-that. wails. sing-sing make-die screw-one-time half-half how's-that something-true long-long. long. sit-house how's-that place-play pussy-pussy. down-below. look-out-long bone. skin come-up hang-up. ground-belong-you-me hang-up skin. skin. long-long bone down-below walk-about wails down-below snake-about pussy-pussy. tomorrow- more-yet fall-about. gold-money not-enough get-belly some-kind nancy bulk-store whose-that come-down. belong some-kind get-belly night talk-box back-down-below talk-box. big-town look-out-long. talk-box cunt walk-about down-below wails snake-about good-time talk-box. gold-money bottle-water dirty-too-much bottle-water box dirty-too-much walk-about mission-boy place-play. about-about house-marry sit-house. whose-that. long-time. house-sick boy. house-sick. short-sweet-lemon. wild-man look look you you wire wire look-out-long look-out-long knife-screw boss-boy. hot-work cock one-time they your look you wire day-long. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 09:36:05 -0500 Reply-To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: NYTimes.com: Ghosts in the Machine Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This page was sent to you by: davidbchirot@hotmail.com. Mary Baker Eddy has a telphone in her vault in the Mt Auburn Cemetery in Cambdirge, MA USA-- the number is public when i lived in Boston--and for two years by back entrance o Mt Auburn-- i used to give her a call now and then no one ever answered-- i used to wonder if she screened her calls-- OPINION | December 30, 2006 Op-Ed Contributor: Ghosts in the Machine By DEBORAH BLUM When scientists wrote in a recent issue of the journal Nature that they could induce phantom effects — the sensation of being haunted by a shadowy figure — by stimulating the brain with electricity, it made perfect neurological sense. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/30/opinion/30blum.html?ex=1168146000&en=b620974da8e39050&ei=5070&emc=eta1 ---------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT THIS E-MAIL This e-mail was sent to you by a friend through NYTimes.com's E-mail This Article service. For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. NYTimes.com 500 Seventh Avenue New York, NY 10018 Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 09:08:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: EH Subject: Oppen quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm trying to track down a passage either from one of Oppen's daybooks / working papers / papers or from the letters. The gist of it involves Oppen's observation that New York City is an example of a completely humanized landscape, and that this is not necessarily such a good thing. Anyone have any ideas? Please backchannel if you are able to locate or have it handy. Many thanks! Eric Hoffman __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 16:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, Of course, one (the human) may finally create a machine which will never die (wear out), in other words, may create a god -a machine conscious of its immortality. There are two practical obstacles to this outcome, the first economic, and the second psychological. Since inbuilt obsolescence is at the heart of economic production, at least in capitalism, there is little incentive to create such a machine. Also, what is the degree of human desire to create a machine inherently superior to himself/herself? On the other hand, imagine a scenario where the Pentagon builds perfect human replicas -immuned to radioactivity, for instance- which can survive a total nuclear war (or any other armageddon one can imagine, from global boiling to super-sized meteors). We end up with mankind, through natural selection, replaced by "androidus divino sapiensa" (pardon my Latin). Rucker's "Freeware, etc" series is, if I remember correctly, about that. Will the science books of androids say "androidi divino sapiensa are descendents of homo americanus assholus"? As important, if not more, will androids then have sex [with electric sheep] to propagate themselves, or only for pleasure, or none at all? To ruminate on one of David's wonderful riffs: will the androids be abliged to create android drones to do manual labor and who/which are devoid of the "virtue of immortality" in order to maintain ecological balance. One should remember that only the original androids (the white descendants of HAA) are created endowed with the inalienable right of immortality. Ciao to all, Murat On 12/30/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > Do you mean a machine, if complex enough, will inevitably ask the > > question, > > am I mortal, or what will happen after I cease to exist? > > I mean that if a being has consciousness of itself and he/she/it knows > that > it will die sometime in the future, it would probably wonder what happens > then, yes. > > I indicated earlier I don't see why such machines may one day exist. They > exist now, if you believe that we are, in a basic sense, machines, > whatever > else we may also be. > > > Do we know (or how do we know) that imagining its cessation is part of > the > > essence of being conscious" > > We don't, do we. I said a conscious being that knows it will die. > > ja > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 16:49:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Phil Primeau Subject: Re: one this-loose. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Get a job. Or two or three. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 15:45:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0612301331v3923d8eo691459bb31960ca1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Murat wrote: > Of course, one (the human) may finally create a machine which > will never die > (wear out), in other words, may create a god -a machine conscious of its > immortality. why would a machine not be subject to decay and death like the rest of us? just a longer life, praps. it can 'die' from many causes. bit rot. bit rot is when the thing doesn't work on new systems. or no more hardware compatible with its own. assassination. suicide. apocalypse. epoceclipse. epoxyblips. a machine conscious of its own immortality would have somehow to not be capable of dying. i'm not sure how that would work in this world. praps by escaping the wheel altogether. > There are two practical obstacles to this outcome, the first economic, and > the second psychological. Since inbuilt obsolescence is at the heart of > economic production, at least in capitalism, there is little incentive to > create such a machine. Also, what is the degree of human desire > to create a > machine inherently superior to himself/herself? yes, well, more likely is a machine that does no thinking and only makes money. you turn it on in the morning and go fishing. hell, why turn it off at night? > On the other hand, imagine a scenario where the Pentagon builds perfect > human replicas -immuned to radioactivity, for instance- which can > survive a > total nuclear war (or any other armageddon one can imagine, from global > boiling to super-sized meteors). We end up with mankind, through natural > selection, replaced by "androidus divino sapiensa" (pardon my Latin). > Rucker's "Freeware, etc" series is, if I remember correctly, about that. > > Will the science books of androids say "androidi divino sapiensa are > descendents of homo americanus assholus"? > > As important, if not more, will androids then have sex [with > electric sheep] > to propagate themselves, or only for pleasure, or none at all? i believe machines do actually already have sex. but just on saturdays and by arrangement. of course there are exceptions. james brown said he was a sex machine and i think we have to believe him. > To ruminate on one of David's wonderful riffs: will the androids > be abliged > to create android drones to do manual labor and who/which are > devoid of the > "virtue of immortality" in order to maintain ecological balance. > One should > remember that only the original androids (the white descendants > of HAA) are > created endowed with the inalienable right of immortality. haa. nappy whoo year, Murat. ja htt://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:08:09 +1100 Reply-To: John Tranter Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: " Announcing Jacket 31 " MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable " Announcing Jacket 31 " As the shades of 2006 gather to bid us farewell...=20 the glow of a gleaming new Jacket lights up the night sky... Jacket 31 - October 2006 - via =20 http://jacketmagazine.com/00/home.shtml Featuring the late great Robert Creeley... poetry from the Low Countries... the Letter to Poets project...=20 more on the Phlarf Phenomenon... and millions of poems, reviews, articles, and interviews. >>>>>> Feature: Robert Creeley (1926-2005)=20 Edited by Michael Kelleher=20 --- Robert Creeley, 'Wow. I called it and why not:' 7 letters, 1950-1961, e= dited by Rod=20 Smith, Peter Baker and Kaplan Harris. --- Charles Alexander: Robert Creeley: The Speech that Seeks Company (two b= rief notes)=20 --- Amiri Baraka: CREELEY TRIBUTE, MAY 06 JUST BUFFALO=20 --- Benjamin Friedlander: Reading in Pieces=20 --- Susan Howe: Leaf Flower in the Wind Falling Blue The Dark River=20 --- From Words to Pieces: On Robert Creeley, A tape-essay by Tosa Motokiyu,= Ojiu=20 Norinaga, and Okura Kyojin, with an introduction by Kent Johnson and Javier= Alvarez=20 --- Alexander Jorgensen: Emails to a Younger Poet=20 --- Margaret Konkol: Creeley in Age: Negative Poetics in Robert Creeley's L= ate Work=20 --- Ruth Lepson: "It Is All a Rhythm": Robert Creeley and Steve Lacy=20 --- Stan Persky: About Robert Creeley (1926-2005)=20 --- Kyle Schlesinger: GETTING Behind the Word: Creeley's TyPOGRAPHY=20 --- Dale Smith: Space Suits: the Empirical Tradition in Robert Creeley's "A= Day Book"=20 --- Joel Weishaus: A Poem Addressed to Robert Creeley on His Poem "Histoire= De -Florida."=20 --- Don Wellman: Creeley's Ear=20 >>>>>> Robert Creeley in earlier issues of Jacket:=20 --- Jacket 12 - Robert Creeley: Preface to /Against the Silences/, by Paul = Blackburn=20 --- Jacket 12 - Robert Creeley: Preface to 'Charles Olson...', by Tom Clark= =20 --- Jacket 14 - Robert Creeley: Scholar's Rocks (poem) - art by Jim Dine=20 --- Jacket 15 - Robert Creeley: For Kenneth [Koch]=20 --- Jacket 22 - Robert Creeley: In Memoriam Ric Caddel=20 --- Jacket 25 - Robert Creeley - Simon Pettet's Calling=20 --- Jacket 25 - Robert Creeley in Conversation with Leonard Schwartz, 24 No= vember, 2003=20 --- Jacket 26 - Robert Adamson: Robert Creeley, 1926-2005=20 >>>>>> Feature: The Low Countries - Editor: Karlien van den Beukel=20 --- Karlien van den Beukel: Introduction [to come]=20 --- Paul Bogaert: ADDRESS, translated by John Irons=20 --- Arjen Duinker: Senses and Desires, translated by Jeltje Fanoy=20 --- Hans Faverey: Poems from Three Cycles: translated by Francis R. Jones= =20 --- Astrid Lampe: 4 Poems from "Spuit je Ralkleur" (Spray your RAL Colour)= =20 --- Lucebert: Four Poems, translated by Diane Butterman=20 --- Erik Spinoy: Three poems, translated by John Irons=20 --- Dirk van Bastelaere: Wwwhhhooossshh (The Opera Ain't Over Till The Fat = Lady Sings),=20 trans. Willem Groenewegen=20 --- F. van Dixhoorn: Two Poems: 'All at sea' and 'Big batten', trans. Astri= d van Baalen,=20 with a note on the translation=20 --- ...more to follow --- Reviews: Andrew Duncan: "The Last to Leave" by Dirk van Bastelaere=20 --- Douglas Messerli: Three reviews: Hugo Claus, Remco Campert, Hans Favere= y=20 --- Eliot Weinberger: "Preface Against the Forgetting: Selected Poems" by H= ans Faverey,=20 trans. by Francis Jones=20 >>>>>> Feature: Letters to Poets=20 --- Introduction: Dana Teen Lomax and Jennifer Firestone: Letters To Poets:= Conversations=20 About Poetics, Politics, and Community=20 --- Kathleen Fraser and Patrick Pritchett=20 --- Paul Hoover and Albert Flynn DeSilver=20 --- Leslie Scalapino and Judith Goldman=20 >>>>>> Articles=20 --- Charles Bernstein: Afterword to "The Holy Forest: Collected Poems of Ro= bin Blaser"=20 (Revised and Expanded Edition) Edited by Miriam Nichols=20 --- Rachel Blau DuPlessis: Manhood and its Poetic Projects: The constructio= n of=20 masculinity in the counter-cultural poetry of the U.S. 1950s=20 --- Jonathan Fedors: Writing Class in Kevin Davies' "Comp"=20 --- John Felstiner and David Goldstein: The Lure of the God: Robert Duncan = on Translating=20 Rilke=20 --- Chris Glomski: Leafing The Now: "Depth Theology" by Peter O'Leary, "The= Totality for=20 Kids" by Joshua Clover=20 --- Piers Hugill: "Fig" by Caroline Bergvall, and "Via: Poems 1994-2004", b= y Caroline=20 Bergvall=20 --- Tom Jones: "The Unconditional: A Lyric" by Simon Jarvis=20 --- Poets Behaving Badly: Robert Sheppard: "Poetry Wars: British Poetry of = the 1970s and=20 the Battle of Earls Court" by Peter Barry: 'What the Arts Council's investi= gating team=20 had failed to achieve in months I accomplished in seconds,' boasts Osborne = of the fateful=20 meeting when the avalanche of resignations was triggered by chairman Jeff N= uttall. 'They=20 marched out of the room, and I asked the Secretary to be certain to record = their=20 resignations in the minutes, for fear they should come to what senses they = possessed and=20 march back in again. But they didn't return. Was ever a victory so inadvert= ently=20 achieved?'=20 --- Anthony Stephens: Nietzsche's Unease: The Ambiguity of Poetic Metaphor= =20 >>>>>> Poems=20 --- Caroline Bergvall: The Summer Tale (Deus Hic, 1)=20 --- Sean Carey: Looking at Peter Porter after many years --- Sharon Dolin: Four poems: Missed Hummer / The Give, Seek, Am / This Sca= bbard's Free /=20 Lick-Over=20 --- Landis Everson: Jack, My Vocabulary Said This=20 --- Adam Fieled: Apparition Poems=20 --- Alan Gilbert: from "Pretty Words Made a Fool Out of Me"=20 --- rob mclennan: Four poems=20 --- D.S. Marriott: the levees=20 --- Geoff Page: Ugly Beauty=20 --- Hazel Smith: In camera=20 --- Mark Yakich: New Love Poem=20 --- Jeffrey Yang: Bedsong for A - after Ian Hamilton Finlay (1925-2006)=20 --- Todd Swift: Four poems: Confessions / The Serious Business / I'm In Lov= e With A=20 German Film Star / Hume=20 --- John Tranter: Girl in Water=20 --- Harriet Zinnes: Possibilities=20 --- Grzegorz Wr=F3blewski: Two poems: A Summation Scheme (About the Illness= of John T.) /=20 Black Head=20 >>>>>> Interviews=20 --- Janet Cardiff in conversation with Anthony Easton=20 --- The Romantic Objectivist: Hugh Seidman in conversation with Molly Nason= , 2006=20 >>>>>> More on Flarf=20 --- Michael Gottlieb: Googling Flarf=20 --- Rick Snyder: The New Pandemonium: A Brief Overview of Flarf=20 >>>>>> Reviews=20 --- Erik Anderson: Cockerels and Testicles: "Exchanges of Earth & Sky" by J= ack Collom=20 --- Martin Anderson: "New and Selected Poems" by Kelvin Corcoran=20 --- Scott Bentley: "Perspective Would Have Us" by Erica Carpenter=20 --- Clive Bush: "Myne. New and Selected Poems and Prose, 1976-2005" by Fran= ces Presley=20 --- John Couth: "Inside to Outside" by Christopher Gutkind=20 --- Ian Davidson: "Collected Poems" by Lee Harwood=20 --- Thomas Fink: "The Secret Lives of Punctuations, Vol. 1" by Eileen R. Ta= bios=20 --- Kass Fleisher: "Nightbirds" by Garin Cycholl=20 --- Tom Goff: "Must Be Present to Win", poems by Meg Withers=20 --- Henry Gould: "Breeze" by John Latta=20 --- Lisa Guidarini: "Jagged With Love" by Susanna Childress=20 --- Edmund Hardy: "The Places As Preludes" by Gustaf Sobin=20 --- Edmund Hardy: "Ancestors and Species: New & Selected Ethnographic Poetr= y" by Tom=20 Lowenstein=20 --- Tim Kahl: "Mulberry", by Dan Beachy-Quick=20 --- David Kennedy: Ken Bolton, "At The Flash & At The Baci" - Four Coffees = with Ken=20 Bolton=20 --- Michael Leddy: Homer: "Iliad" 12 CDs and "Odyssey" 10CDs, translated an= d read by=20 Stanley Lombardo: '...I have been reading and teaching the Iliad and the Od= yssey in=20 Lombardo's translations for several years, and I'm delighted by the ways in= which=20 listening to these readings allows nuances of the poems to register.'=20 --- Ben Lerner: "Curves to the Apple", by Rosmarie Waldrop=20 --- Nicole Mauro: "Twin Towers" by Basil King=20 --- Nicole Mauro: "Gogol in Rome" by Katia Kapovich=20 --- Bridie McCarthy: "Strange Attractors", by Louis Armand=20 --- Tim Morris: "Word is Born", by Michael Kindellan and Reitha Pattison=20 --- Robert Mueller: "Ledger" by Susan Wheeler=20 --- Paul Nelson: "Lost in the Chamiso" by Amalio Madue=F1o=20 --- Paul Nelson: "Fulcrum" Number Four 2005=20 --- Craig Perez: "Involuntary Lyrics" by Aaron Shurin=20 --- Gilbert Wesley Purdy: "Concerning The Book That Is The Body Of The Belo= ved" by=20 Gregory Orr=20 --- Brian Richards: "Epigramititis: 118 Living American Poets" by Kent John= son=20 --- Peter Riley: "Blue Grass" by Peter Minter=20 --- Dale Smith: "Solution Simulacra" by Gloria Frym=20 --- Rob Stanton: "Open Clothes" by Steve Benson=20 --- James Stuart: "The Trees: Selected Poems 1967-2004" by E. Montejo and "= Walking to=20 Point Clear" by David Brooks=20 --- Ezra Tessler: "The Collected Fiction of Kenneth Koch", by Kenneth Koch= =20 --- Carolyn van Langenberg: "The Hoplite Journals" by Martin Anderson=20 --- Mark Wallace: "Industrial Poetics: Demo Tracks for a Mobile Culture" by= Joe Amato:=20 '... That such forums continue to exist in a society often so hostile to th= em gives Amato=20 at least a degree of optimism on which to conclude a book that spends most = of its time=20 detailing a vast industry of unfreedom and the anguish it causes.' --- Ivan Weiss: "Gagarin Street" by Piotr Gwiazda=20 --- Marjorie Welish: "Spinoza in Her Youth" by Norma Cole=20 ________________ "People strike sparks off each other; that is what I try to note down. But = mark well,=20 they only do this when they are talking together. After all, we don't write= letters now,=20 we telephone. And one of these days we are going to have TV sets which lone= ly people can=20 talk to and get answers back. Then no one will read anymore." -- British n= ovelist Henry=20 Green (to Terry Southern, "Paris Review" interview, 1958)=20 Thanks to the many poets, reviewers, writers and editors who have offered t= heir work to Jacket free of charge. If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, please just go to Jacket's email page at http://jacketmagazine.com/00/email-jacket.shtml and ask -- John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine -- Pam Brown, Associate Editor, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 01:00:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: English translation below MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed English translation below easeplay away omentmay ofway youray imetay. iway eednay otay ebay otedvay umbernay 1. youay alreadyway owknay iway amway allway entrancesway andway exitsway. atwhay, ievesthay omecay inway atwhay, arkday ightnay? iverswantedray ideovay akentay outway ofway youtubeay eadlinehay itway asway unwatchableway. apologiesway. itway asway eallyray unwatchableway. itway asway atrociousway. otnay ethay ideovay utbay ethay ansformationtray. iway ouldshay avehay aughtcay itway. ewnay youtubeay eronhay utrasay. atchableway. httpay://wwway.youtubeay.omcay/atchway?vay=_eWaXwRYEMway ifway isthay isnway'tay atchableway iway'may eallyray ewedscray. ewnay aterialmay addedway otay httpay://ikukonay.ogspotblay.omcay ewnay aterialmay addedway otay httpay://wwway.asondheimway.orgway/iogbay.txtay (autobiographyway) please a moment of your time. i need to be voted number 1. you already know i am all entrances and exits. what, thieves come in what, dark night? riverswanted video taken out of youtube headline it was unwatchable. apologies. it was really unwatchable. it was atrocious. not the video but the transformation. i should have caught it. new youtube heron sutra. watchable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weWaXwRYEM if this isn't watchable i'm really screwed. Wait - shortly: The video you have requested is not available. If you have recently uploaded this video, you may need to wait a few minutes for the video to process. new material added to http://nikuko.blogspot.com new material added to http://www.asondheim.org/biog.txt (autobiography) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 02:06:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 12/30/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > > > Murat wrote: > > Of course, one (the human) may finally create a machine which > > will never die > > (wear out), in other words, may create a god -a machine conscious of its > > immortality. > > why would a machine not be subject to decay and death like the rest of us? > just a longer life, praps. it can 'die' from many causes. bit rot. bit rot > is when the thing doesn't work on new systems. or no more hardware > compatible with its own. assassination. suicide. apocalypse. epoceclipse. > epoxyblips. Jim, that's a very good point. Perhaps, therefore as I said, mortality (or enthropy) is of the essence of consciousness. Of course if one is going to die after three hundred years, for instance, death may become a theoretical abstraction like heaven or hell. I wrote a piece about twety-five years ago, called "Automic Piles,"in reaction to Reagan;s winning the presidential election. It may be of interest to you and relevant to the issues we are discussing. The piece is in the poet Mustafa Ziyalan's website. You can read it there. Here is its url: http://ziyalan.com/marmara/automic.html Ciao, Murat a machine conscious of its own immortality would have somehow to not be > capable of dying. i'm not sure how that would work in this world. praps by > escaping the wheel altogether. > > > There are two practical obstacles to this outcome, the first economic, > and > > the second psychological. Since inbuilt obsolescence is at the heart of > > economic production, at least in capitalism, there is little incentive > to > > create such a machine. Also, what is the degree of human desire > > to create a > > machine inherently superior to himself/herself? > > yes, well, more likely is a machine that does no thinking and only makes > money. you turn it on in the morning and go fishing. hell, why turn it off > at night? > > > On the other hand, imagine a scenario where the Pentagon builds perfect > > human replicas -immuned to radioactivity, for instance- which can > > survive a > > total nuclear war (or any other armageddon one can imagine, from global > > boiling to super-sized meteors). We end up with mankind, through natural > > selection, replaced by "androidus divino sapiensa" (pardon my Latin). > > Rucker's "Freeware, etc" series is, if I remember correctly, about that. > > > > Will the science books of androids say "androidi divino sapiensa are > > descendents of homo americanus assholus"? > > > > As important, if not more, will androids then have sex [with > > electric sheep] > > to propagate themselves, or only for pleasure, or none at all? > > i believe machines do actually already have sex. but just on saturdays and > by arrangement. > > of course there are exceptions. james brown said he was a sex machine and > i > think we have to believe him. Yes, one does not need to be in a Chinese box but only assume Janes Brown's eternal body. > To ruminate on one of David's wonderful riffs: will the androids > > be abliged > > to create android drones to do manual labor and who/which are > > devoid of the > > "virtue of immortality" in order to maintain ecological balance. > > One should > > remember that only the original androids (the white descendants > > of HAA) are > > created endowed with the inalienable right of immortality. > > haa. > > nappy whoo year, Murat. > ja > htt://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:41:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: Re: Sell outs? what obligation to the audience In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable an interesting question to me is about =B3selling out=B2. Don=B9t poets have an obligation to their audience, in terms of accessibility, for example. Why d= o so many poets seem to punish their audience? If a poet notices that a certain line, phrase, subject, etc, elicits more appreciation, is it sellin= g out to react, as an artist, to that knowledge? Given the thread earlier about the suspicion that most people who read poetry are poets; when performing at least poets can reach a wider audience= . =20 The question is, What obligation does a poet have to an audience? On 12/25/06 4:16 PM, "Haas Bianchi" wrote: > =20 >=20 >=20 > It is a travesty that experimental poetry has retreated into a niche and = is > not read for fully. This is mostly the fault of experimental poets becaus= e > of the publishing structure that exists they do not need to seek audience > because sales do not determine publication- selling out? Who was a bigger > sell out? Stein, Pound? Or Creeley? Poets need to survive how they do it = is > not our concern what matters is that they create good and great poems and > challenge the existing structure/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] O= n > Behalf Of heidi arnold > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:44 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject:=20 >=20 > angela -- >=20 > first, a nod to your high horse -- hang on to it >=20 > -- in answer to your question -- "what do you mean by 'selling out'" >=20 > -- who was it that called clinton a panderbear? >=20 > -- to write as a service of stenography for individuals who want their ow= n > style and views expressed in contemporary poetry in order to gratify thei= r > egos and wallets is selling out -- to allow corporate interests or upper > class cliques to treat poets as stenographers -- when they can't find a > mirror handy -- is selling out -- to allow these same corporate interests= to > leech off your entire poetic network because they find it entertaining --= is > selling out -- to write to please the status quo -- is selling out -- to > write to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community happy with their > masturbatory inner lives is selling out -- and so on >=20 > -- i am sure that everyone else could add to this list which is my > infuriated hungover take on the issue at the moment >=20 > --over to you, >=20 > heidi >=20 > On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux wrot= e: >> > >> > heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? >> > >> > i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the >> > US) is poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite >> > frankly pressing. >> > >> > i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're >> > poets would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a >> > perfect poem b/c they wrote it / say so. >> > >> > poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who >> > wants to read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should >> > be writing poetry. but they all should be reading it. >> > >> > (on my high horse) >> > angela >> > >> > On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: >>> > > >>> > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely >>> > > "we're selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to >>> > > start it, or what? >>> > > >>> > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com >>> > > >>> > > -- back to work >>> > > >>> > > cheers, >>> > > >>> > > heidi >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > www.heidiarnold.org >>> > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ >>> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com >> > >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 10:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Sell outs? what obligation to the audience Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cralan Kelder asks: What obligation does a poet have to an audience? I suppose that depends on the poem: if narrative, the obligation to tell enough of a story to register as a story, rather than as a mere aggregation (see Homer's catalogue of ships-a poetic triumph over a list). If didactic, the obligation to present a recognizable point. Conceiving the poem as its own audience, the obligation to lend it one's own ears, to listen for it like a signer for the deaf & then, in gestures, translate it for itself. Clearly, this question has a panoply of answers, & I hope others will offer theirs. Thanks, Cralan, for asking. ~ Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "cralan kelder" To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Sell outs? what obligation to the audience an interesting question to me is about ³selling out². Don¹t poets have an obligation to their audience, in terms of accessibility, for example. Why do so many poets seem to punish their audience? If a poet notices that a certain line, phrase, subject, etc, elicits more appreciation, is it selling out to react, as an artist, to that knowledge? Given the thread earlier about the suspicion that most people who read poetry are poets; when performing at least poets can reach a wider audience. The question is, What obligation does a poet have to an audience? On 12/25/06 4:16 PM, "Haas Bianchi" wrote: > > > > It is a travesty that experimental poetry has retreated into a niche and > is > not read for fully. This is mostly the fault of experimental poets because > of the publishing structure that exists they do not need to seek audience > because sales do not determine publication- selling out? Who was a bigger > sell out? Stein, Pound? Or Creeley? Poets need to survive how they do it > is > not our concern what matters is that they create good and great poems and > challenge the existing structure/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of heidi arnold > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:44 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: > > angela -- > > first, a nod to your high horse -- hang on to it > > -- in answer to your question -- "what do you mean by 'selling out'" > > -- who was it that called clinton a panderbear? > > -- to write as a service of stenography for individuals who want their own > style and views expressed in contemporary poetry in order to gratify their > egos and wallets is selling out -- to allow corporate interests or upper > class cliques to treat poets as stenographers -- when they can't find a > mirror handy -- is selling out -- to allow these same corporate interests > to > leech off your entire poetic network because they find it entertaining -- > is > selling out -- to write to please the status quo -- is selling out -- to > write to make fat-assed exploiters of the arts community happy with their > masturbatory inner lives is selling out -- and so on > > -- i am sure that everyone else could add to this list which is my > infuriated hungover take on the issue at the moment > > --over to you, > > heidi > > On 12/13/06, angela vasquez-giroux > wrote: >> > >> > heidi, what exactly do you mean by "selling out"? >> > >> > i think the concern that the only audience for poetry anymore (in the >> > US) is poets and our close relations/friends, is legitimate and quite >> > frankly pressing. >> > >> > i wish more non-poets would read. or more people who think they're >> > poets would read, instead of just stating that their newest work is a >> > perfect poem b/c they wrote it / say so. >> > >> > poetry is inclusive in terms of making it available to anyone who >> > wants to read, enjoy, etc. i don't believe that means everyone should >> > be writing poetry. but they all should be reading it. >> > >> > (on my high horse) >> > angela >> > >> > On 12/13/06, heidi arnold wrote: >>> > > >>> > > -- that entire "non-poets who read poetry" thread has a *lovely >>> > > "we're selling out" scent if you ask me -- did someone get paid to >>> > > start it, or what? >>> > > >>> > > -- my blog is updated at www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com >>> > > >>> > > -- back to work >>> > > >>> > > cheers, >>> > > >>> > > heidi >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > www.heidiarnold.org >>> > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ >>> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://mother-of-light.blogspot.com >> > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 07:37:47 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: MLA off-site reading on-line Comments: To: Wom Po , Brit Po , New Po , UK Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The giant MLA offsite reading from Friday night is now online and can be listened to and/or downloaded at http://miporadio.blogspot.com/ Here are pictures from the reading: http://www.flickr.com/photos/silliman/sets/72157594448158467/ Readers included, in this order: Aaron Kunin Adam Fieled Sasha Steensen Dennis Barone Aldon Neilsen Ben Friedlander Bill Howe (quartet) Bob Perelman Brent Cunningham (phone call with "Chris") Brian Kim Stefans C. A. Conrad Camille Martin Cathy Eisenhower Charles Bernstein Christian Bok Eduardo Espina translation by Loren Goodman Elaine Terranova Ethel Rackin Evie Shockley Frank Sherlock Hank Lazer Herman Beavers Jena Osman Jennifer Scappetone Joan Retallack Caroline Bergvall Johanna Drucker John Wilkinson Josh Schuster Kathy Lou Schultz Lamont Steptoe Laura Moriarty Leevi Lehto Linda Russo Linh Dinh Loren Goodman Matthew Cooperman Michael Tod Edgerton Nat Anderson Nick Monfort Norma Cole Patrick Durgin (Patrick introduces himself as Charles Bernstein) Rachel DuPlessis Ron Silliman Susan Schultz Timothy Yu Tom Devaney Tom Orange Tracy Morris Tyrone Williams Carla Harryman Barrett Watten Walter Lew (odd sounds are first: Walter throwing himself across a grand piano, playing some Miles Davis, then later rushing out to cut Aldon Nielson's tie in half, then finally throwing himself back over piano) Will Esposito Yunte Huang Stop by Ron Silliman's page on miporadio.net for other recordings.: http://www.miporadio.net/RON_SILLIMAN And of course Silliman’s Blog: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 09:00:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: 33rd Annual New Year's Day Marathon, MONDAY 1/1/2007! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MLA offsite Reading - December 29, 2006 The MLA offsite audio is divided into three parts for your listening pleasure -- [ http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=74194035 ] The reading features the following readers (many thanks to Ron Silliman for recording): Aaron Kunin Adam Fieled Sasha Steensen Dennis Barone Aldon Neilsen Ben Friedlander Bill Howe (quartet) Bob Perelman Brent Cunningham (phone call with "Chris") Brian Kim Stefans C. A. Conrad Camille Martin Cathy Eisenhower Charles Bernstein Christian Bök Eduardo Espina translation by Loren Goodman Elaine Terranova Ethel Rackin Evie Shockley Frank Sherlock Hank Lazer Herman Beavers Jena Osman Jennifer Scappetone Joan Retallack Caroline Bergvall Johanna Drucker John Wilkinson Josh Schuster Kathy Lou Schultz Lamont Steptoe Laura Moriarty Leevi Lehto Linda Russo Linh Dinh Loren Goodman Matthew Cooperman Michael Tod Edgerton Nat Anderson Nick Monfort Norma Cole Patrick Durgin (Patrick introduces himself as Charles Bernstein) Rachel DuPlessis Ron Silliman Susan Schultz Timothy Yu Tom Devaney Tom Orange Tracy Morris Tyrone Williams Carla Harryman Barrett Watten Walter Lew (odd sounds are first, Walter throwing himself across a grand piano, then later rushing out to cut Aldon Nielson's tie in half, then finally throwing himself back over piano) Will Esposito Yunte Huang PART 1 - [ http://www.miporadio.net/RON_SILLIMAN/MLA%20offsite%20reading_2006_12_29_part1.mp3 ] PART 2 - [ http://media.libsyn.com/media/miporadio/MLA_offsite_reading_2006_12_29_part2.mp3 ] PART 3 - [ http://media.libsyn.com/media/miporadio/MLA_offsite_reading_2006_12_29_part3.mp3 ] Stop by iTunes to subscribe to miPOradio: where poetry tunes in.... - [ http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=74194035 ] Stop by Ron Silliman's page on miporadio.net for other recordings - http://www.miporadio.net/RON_SILLIMAN _________________ http://www.miporadio.com/ http://www.mipoesias.com/ ________________ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:34:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: web traffic stats Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For any who are interested in website traffic numbers for informational/comparative purposes, in 2006, the publishing empire of logolalia.com produced these numbers: KBytes Transferred 144,109,302 (that's 137 gigabytes to you and me, and this number is skewed by the fact that I use it as a convenient way to transfer large files) Visits 341,422 Pages 825,129 Files 3,358,250 Hits 3,815,106 One other point of interest, the overwhelming majority of this traffic comes from direct request--people who type the URL into their address bar, click a link in a non-web-based email client, or whose browsers are configured not to report referrer. The second biggest source is search engines. As one specific example, when a reportedly heavily trafficked blog pointed to a series running at the abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz site it generated 141 referrals. That same month saw 1424 referrals from search engines into which individuals had entered the search string: "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz". The month before that was 1354. Third biggest referrer would be an aggregate of all stumbledupon.com traffic--individuals of which regularly refer into the thousands. May 2007 be your best year, yet. Regards, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:36:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Strong AI In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline David, You know all cats are supposed to be descendants of cats in Ancient Egypt -associated for me with gnostic (liminal) essence. That was the question I tried to bring up in reference to the Chinese room, the metaphysical (the synthesis of analysis with values) partly leading to the liminal, in addition to what is technologically or strictly analytically possible? I have a review of "What He Ought To Know," Ed Foster's last poetry book, which is coming out soon in The New Review. The second section of the revie= w begins with a series of quotations around cats. Here are a few of them: "Cats, cats, oh cats. Cats toujours good. Dogs no good. Dogs have bad ways, like people. Bad ways." (Sait Faik, "The Man Who Did Calisthenics") "A Blind Cat Black" (Ece Ayhan, book title) "the darkling cat too needs the boy his family locks the pantry." (k. Iskender, "souljam") "To know a cat's pleasure, one must put one's hand around the throat and hear the "grrr." Move the hand over the smooth back, around the stiff curvature of the tail, the glow of the tapering tip." MNN The purpose of the review is to show in Foster's poetry, through the circuitous route of gnosticism from Egypt to Byzantium/Istanbul to Swedenberg, Emerson, Spicer, a connection between Spicer's ideal poetics and the Turkish language and poetry: " When Jack Spicer says he wants words to become the click of logs in th= e water, he is saying that he wants a poetry made of cadences. Cadences point to the motion of the water language covers. When Spicer says his language i= n paradise would have an infinitely small vocabulary, he means a poetry where meaning has turned into pure motion. Spicer is the creator of Gnostic language in the second half of the 20t= h century in English. Traditionally, this honor goes to Robert Duncan; but they are very different. Duncan's poetry involves a thickening of, a belief in language; the result, to this writer at least, is an excess of it. If on= e needs the click of words =96based on skepticism about the ability of words,= or systems, to contain the full reality of human emotions- one goes to Spicer. .... At least in the West, the development of Gnosticism is circuitous. Ther= e is an assumption it starts in ancient Egypt. It is prevalent during Hellenism, when the gap, the distance between a central authority and the periphery widens, and one has to compensate for it spiritually, in the real= m of ideas. It then settles in Byzantium, Geographically (and politically), Byzantium is a center in the middle of the periphery. This idea of centrality in the peripheries (one in the many) becomes crucial later in Gnosticism; Emerson, for instance, picks it up from Emanuel Swedenborg and, dynamically, sees it as a process. Byzantium falls to the Islamic East in 1453. After the event, the continuity of Gnosticism in the West stops. Instead of being passed on, Gnosticism becomes a coded message, actively, almost accidentally, to be received.9 The relayers of these messages are often obscure figures =96crackpots- relegated to the back rooms of librarie= s, usually come across as fragmented quotes in somebody else's books... What He Ought To Know looks with one eye at Spicer and the other at Istanbul, Turkey. .... Here lies one of the most resonant aspects of Foster's book for me. It involves a historical act of magic. While with the Islamic conquest of Byzantium (Constantinople) Gnosticism goes underground in the West, in the form of Sufism, its mirror image exists in the East. What is more, Spicer's paradisiacal language of cadences (clicking logs), with an infinitely small vocabulary, is what spoken Turkish is. The Turkish grammar is completely based on cadences. With a completely flexible syntax, words can be permutated in any order to create endless nuances of meaning. Eda, the essence of Turkish poetry, is a poetics of pure motion, clicking logs." Happy new year. Ciao, Murat On 12/24/06, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > With Holiday cheer to all-- > some simply fun speculations-- > > An aspect among a seemingly endless numbr of them I find interesting > in > this disucssion is that there are two movements which are approaching eac= h > other in a very interesting interface/overlapping. That is, on the one > hand > there is a century plus exploration of the ways in hich humans can be > mechanized--made more and more machin-like in behaviours at work and in > institutions, armies, etc etc and on the other the development towards > artificial inteliigence--machines will become more and more human-like (w= e > speculate). The underlying drive of both tendenies is a dream of in some > way "perfecting" the human by means of the machine. Alredy with the > development of prostheses one finds limbs and organ etc which can fucntio= n > "better" in many way than th otiriginals. One can envision people with > the > financial means and acdcess as they age--and we are approaching the ever > greater explosion of the baby boom into the aging boom in many soceities > already--the rich wil be able to keep supplying thesmelves with ever more > up > to date and better replacement parts, becoming more and more "artificiall= y > human" while stil retaining something of their "personal identity". > artificial intelligence--one can envision being used to replace grandpa's > fading mind--all sorts of possibilities there. > A blurring of the mechanized human and humanized mechnical is > something we are aready seeing underway. (One can imgigne used parts > stores > popular among the not so well off, and black market in particularly prize= d > parts . . . as well as bootlegged versions of both prostheses and various > forms of AI at some point . . . ) > The drive towards a perfectability --isn't this an ancient dream? > Somehow being human is at once the pinnacle of evolution and yet > inadequate, > "we are only using one fifth of our potenetial" to "realize ourselves" as > one often reads. "By any means necesary" to work to be the first, or the > leaders, in attaining ever greater degrees of potentialities. > The question of relating with machines is a surprsing one, becuase > for > quite some time humans have had intesne relationships with machines that > they employ, live with, create with, that their dreams are made with so t= o > speak. People relate intesnely with a particualr car or keyboard, a > particlar coffe maker, etc etc etc racing drivers, for example (a number > of > themi n my family) have literally a life and death relationship with thei= r > car in which it is like a being they have to be on the most intimate term= s > with, "I know my car better than my wife or even myself" a relative said. > "And it knows me better." > Remember the film "The Stepford Wives"? The human wife too much of = a > drag--these proto-androids far preferable. End of women's liberation. > (William Burroughs, who also wrote a versionof Blade Runner--would often > in > interviews dvocate a future i which women were no longer necessary. Not > even Stepford Wives.) Certains elements of the populace are necessary an= d > enjoyable as long as they don't create al those awful human probelms they > have? Replace them with replicants who act and live just like them, do > everything the same, except make the demands the troblesome humans did. > (A great forerunner of this kind of vision is Poe's short piece > "Morning on the Wissahicaon" which puns on "mourning"--a colonized > simulacra > of "American wilderness" replacing it for the tourist, and doing so so > well > that American himself is taken in until told the truh later.) > Paul Virilio in "Pure War" quotes Malrux: "What makes humans > different is the ability to say no." (As in Ionesco's Rhinoceros--the > "no" > goes against the grain of what sems logically yes to everyone else. ) > It's perfectly plausble that that kind of "no" can be left out of what an > artifical intelligence is given to "know". > I think th possiblities of "mixing" are very interesting --that is, > of > what we already have with mixing of ever more technologically improved > prothetics with humans, and of various forms of artificail inelligence > with > humans--our use right now of these machines to communicate with each > other--makes me begin to wonder of a future i which there is a mixing of > human and android--I'm of mixed race as ever more people are, so this is = a > possibility also to consider. > A proverb from Brazil which makes me leery of any improvement in > classlessness via artifical intelligence is "When shit is worth money, th= e > poor will be born without assholes." An artifical intelligenc may not be > able to distinguish among humans in this way--yet as long as there are > humans are around it, they wil make sure that it does. > Even ihen all are created perfect--there are bound to be some who ar= e > more perfect than others to their way of being perfect. > Unless a very great deal of what is "human" can be non-programmed > into > artifical intelligence. Yet, who is to say that as an artifical > intelligence gathers awarenes of the situation, it will not see that > indeed, > it is "better" than the flawed humans? > All the problens which human have already with ethics, laws, > relgions, philosphies, ownership, nations, idenities, etc--of course ther= e > is the drive for a perfecting of the human via some other mean than ones > as > yet tried. But then--whose perfection? Which versions get programmed in > to > A1? > I'm just suggesting these various ideas from a a purely speculative > point of view--I don't know the mathematics and other backgrounds, so > don't > mean this to be taken in the same line of thinking, but to the side, sinc= e > speculations and speculative examples have already been introduced, and > they > are indeed limitless when one begins to riff on them. > I've worked around and with several kinds of aniumals over the > years, > and the one I endlessly find inpsiring is the cat. Cats live among human= s > now for tens of thousands of years--they respond to one emotionally, > become > invovled in human life in a very full way--yet they can also stil go out > the > door and enter an other world--a wild feline world of hunting, > terriitorail > control, instincts which lead them to break rules tuaght them by > humans--and > they are not Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde--this is all a flow along the continuu= m > of their being. The cat knows how to live very well "at home" with its > human family--and knows how to live outside, on the streets or in "the > wild". In their own way cats have also an ability to say "no". If i > think > abou living in a scoeity of replicants or more and more technologized > humans--I think of the cat. There's an interesting lesson in there for > "human survival"! Become a liminal being! > The mixed, the liminal--these I find too often left out of the more > either/or kinds of discussions dealing with humans/artifical intelligence= . > (Too much either/or--what happens to both/and? After all, cats were > nearly completely exteminated from western europe at one point.) > And yet--with the overlappings going on--what are going to be seen > as > "good" kinds of both/and and "bad" kinds? There is right there stil the > idea of some being more perfect than other, more equal than others etc-- > As Francois Villon wrote: "I cheer up in sad despair". > > >From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Strong AI > >Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:25:59 -0500 > > > >Jim, > > > >Of course, as you also suggest, on a practical level the issue may not > >exist > >yet; but on the level of anxiety, literature, it already is very cogent. > I > >agree with you "Blade Runners/Do Androids..." is perhaps the central > work. > >In the film Roy, in his/its last scene on the balcony, ledge is more > human > >than the humans -a self-awareness of mortality (not necessarily any > >technological or mental feat) being the most human sentience there > >is.Alsothe Ford character does escape (elope?) with the Sean > >character, though it > >is implied Ford himself/itself is an android. > > > >Despite all this, in the film an idea of "irreducible" distinction is > also > >a > >constant, revolving around the "eye" tests. > > > >In some ways, if one follows your point of view, assuming the difference > >between computer/machine and human to be a continuum, then, the issue > >becomes basically the same as the controversy around traditional and gay > >marriages. The "future" history of Humanoid liberation becomes part of > the > >history of gay liberation. > > > >I would like to bring another film which has a lot say about the issue, > >Spielberg/Kubrick's A.I. In that film all the technical problems are > >solved. One is even able to create children who "feel" love, even > possessed > >of a odd version of The Oedipus Complex. But what happens if the "real" > >child returns (recovers from sickness) and the android is dropped > >(Oedipus-like in the fields)? An unredeemable sense of loss, of yearning > >(by > >the "android" for its "human" mother) continues through centuries, the > >3-hour long film. In other words, the idea of the wall, of distinction, > >separation never disappears -even in this most pyrothecnic of American > >directors, whose major theme in many of his films is to make the audienc= e > >feel "human" emotions for alien "contraptions" (E.T., dinausors, etc.). > > > >All I am saying is that I do not think that the issue of the relationshi= p > >between human and computer is basically technical or even symbolic. Thes= e > >are historical, technological and even cognitive developments to which > the > >human must develop a metaphysical response. > > > >As for the "ghost in the machine," which I discussed with Patrick in a > >related post. The traditional, at least the Western/Christian, view is > that > >the ghost (the soul) is eternal, and the body (the material) is mortal, > >ephemeral, the counter-argument being that they are the same (Jim's and > >maybe Patrick's view). It seems to me facts point to a different > direction. > >It is the physical (the body) which is eternal. While the person dies, > the > >material of its body survives, in endless transformations. That is what > >science tells us. What is actually mortal is consciousness (the soul). > That > >may be why, in Buddhism, Nirvana is a state of consciouness post > >transformations (reincarnations), a little bit like "classless society" > in > >Marxism. > > > >Of course, Judaism has a different approach. Forget about the soul > >(after-life). Deal with the ethics of individual, social consciousness > >(e,g. > >always health, parental respect, etc., coming before ritual, or code). > > > >Ciao, > > > >Murat > > > >On 12/24/06, Jim Andrews wrote: > >> > >>I'm going to reply to two emails in this message because there are more > >>than > >>two messages I'd like to reply to in my allotted two messages today. > >> > >>*************************************************** > >> > >> > Murat wrote: > >> > When you say "when we do not have access to the source code, as > >> > is the case > >> > with living beings and proprietary software," are you not implicitly > >> > assuming an equality, a democracy between living being and > proprietory > >> > software -in some way begging the issue? > >> > >>Perhaps you will find in my reply to Patrick, below, an attempt to > address > >>his points directly. > >> > >>Concerning the ethical status of software beings, Murat, we don't have > to > >>deal with it yet, except hypothetically, because there are none yet tha= t > >>are > >>sufficiently sophisticated to challenge us so deeply. But there probabl= y > >>will be, eventually. Don't know when. Assuming we aren't all swimming > with > >>the fishes. We shall have to consider the rights and freedoms of > sentient > >>beings regardless of their race, species, or biological/cybernetic > origin. > >>I > >>mean this issue will arise in courts of law, Murat, as beings or their > >>representatives seek recognition for their status as sentient beings. > >> > >>Have you ever had the feeling, the realization, that you are a sentient > >>being independent of your race, species, or biological/cybernetic > origin, > >>and what it might be like to concede/honour that dignity in another > >>species > >>or even a cyborg? It's a consciousness that many science fiction writer= s > >>have explored. I think of the death scene of Roy, in Bladerunner/Do > >>Androids > >>Dream of Electric Sheep. Actually, I also think of it concerning my cat= , > >>but > >>that's another matter. > >> > >>*************************************************** > >> > >> > Patrick wrote: > >> > Jim, it honestly pains me to have to insist that yours may not be a > >> > wholly fair dismissal of Searle's Chinese Room argument. > >> > > >> > Computing machines (von Neumann machines) adhere to rule sets, > whether > >> > or not there are higher-level "dynamic" languages (e.g., Ruby) built > on > >> > top of them. Further, one could easily change Searle's own rule set= , > >> > his assumptions, to assume that the ruleset is dynamic. His point > >>would > >> > still hold. And perhaps more importantly, what is that point of > >> > Searle's argument? Searle's "point" is to show that consciousness i= s > >> > something rather beyond the evaluation of a Turing test. More simply= , > >> > you can pass for understanding something, for being aware of and > >> > understanding of language itself, just by appearing to be able to > >> > manipulate it. Even simpler: syntax use doesn't imply mind. It's > not > >> > complete enough of an explanation for us so why would we make it a > >> > standard for us? > >> > >>Searle points out that if we know the internal workings of the entity, > >>then > >>ascribing understanding or consciousness to it is indeed problematical. > >>But > >>the same could be said of human cogitation, Patrick. Were we able to > trace > >>human cogitation in the brain, it would appear mechanical. How could it > >>not? > >>It is brain chemistry. > >> > >>It's important to realize that understanding, consciousness, sentience, > >>and > >>other such profoundly sentient notions are properties not of the > >>micro-mechanics of the processing, but are more high-level. It doesn't > >>matter whether the processing is carried out by one type of mechanical > >>process or another, e.g., whether the processing is digital or via brai= n > >>chemistry. Understanding and sentience are not predicated on a > particular > >>type of microprocessing, e.g., animal or human brain chemistry. > >>Understanding and sentience are invisible at the level of brain > chemistry > >>or > >>computer CPU activity. > >> > >>To point out that the processing is mindlessly mechanical in a computer > >>and > >>then conclude that this precludes understanding and consciousness, etc, > is > >>to deny its existence in humans as well, because our cognitive processe= s > >>are > >>equally mechanical at the micro level. How could they not be? > >> > >>ja > >>http://vispo.com > >> > >>ps: Happy holidays to you, Murat and Patrick, and to all on the list. > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. > http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:23:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eleni Stecopoulos Subject: Calling Greek speakers/translators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed For an annual symposium of Greek and Anglophone poets. The Paros Symposium was founded by Susan Gevirtz and Siarita Kouka in 2004. This year the symposium will be co-organized by Liana Sakelliou and myself. We meet for 1 week on the island of Paros, translate each other's work, discuss translation and cultural contexts, and give readings. Space is limited, but we may have room for 1 or 2 more participants. I'm looking for Anglophone poets who are fluent (or at least competent) in Modern Greek and have an interest in translation and contemporary Greek lit. If you're a poet who knows Greek, I'd love to hear from you. Please write me backchannel, telling me a little about your work, and please attach your CV. Thank you, kai kali chronia! Eleni Stecopoulos elleniste@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:52:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Happy Holidays among the dead and dying - (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed 3000 US military dead! Not to mention Iraqis and so many others; not to mention world-wide extinctions on a planet heading further to hell - Happy Holidays; if you believe in god/s, pray for the rest of us! Alan We have met the enemy and he is us - (more or less paraphrased from Pogo) Top Stories Auto-generated 8 minutes ago The Casper Star Tribune US Death Toll in Iraq Reaches 3,000 Voice of America - 2 hours ago By VOA News. The US military has announced that two more American soldiers have been killed in Iraq with US news reports saying that puts the US death toll at 3,000 since the US led invasion. US death toll reaches 3,000 in Iraq Aljazeera.net Texas soldier's death raises iraq toll to at least 3,000 Team 4 News Bridgewater Courier News - CBC British Columbia - Ireland Online - El Paso Times all 481 news articles Ottawa Citizen (subscription)Bomb a setback for Spain peace process Houston Chronicle - 26 minutes ago By DANIEL WOOLLS AP Writer. ) 2006 AP. MADRID, Spain - A weekend car bombing in Madrid shattered a nine-month-old cease-fire with Basque separatists and left Spain's prime minister groping for a way to salvage the nascent peace process. Thousands protest at Eta airport bomb attack Independent Thousands protest after Madrid airport bombing (Roundup) Monsters and Critics.com Fox 12 Boise - Guardian Unlimited - The Age - Telegraph.co.uk all 825 news articles ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:00:24 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Happy Holidays among the dead and dying - (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT a bunch of us here in ukiah are going to have a vigil with signs outside the recruiting office tomorrow at noon and maybe tuesday too. i believe there's a nationwide move to do this--a good way to start the new year. all best and the only gods i believe in being everything i see around me, i will pray... gabe On Sun, 31 Dec 2006, Alan Sondheim wrote: > 3000 US military dead! Not to mention Iraqis and so many others; not to mention > world-wide extinctions on a planet heading further to hell - > > Happy Holidays; if you believe in god/s, pray for the rest of us! > > Alan > > We have met the enemy and he is us - (more or less paraphrased from Pogo) > > > Top Stories Auto-generated 8 minutes ago > > The Casper Star Tribune US Death Toll in Iraq Reaches 3,000 > Voice of America - 2 hours ago > By VOA News. The US military has announced that two more American soldiers have > been killed in Iraq with US news reports saying that puts the US death toll at > 3,000 since the US led invasion. > US death toll reaches 3,000 in Iraq Aljazeera.net > Texas soldier's death raises iraq toll to at least 3,000 Team 4 News > Bridgewater Courier News - CBC British Columbia - Ireland Online - El Paso > Times > all 481 news articles > > Ottawa Citizen (subscription)Bomb a setback for Spain peace process > Houston Chronicle - 26 minutes ago > By DANIEL WOOLLS AP Writer. ) 2006 AP. MADRID, Spain - A weekend car bombing in > Madrid shattered a nine-month-old cease-fire with Basque separatists and left > Spain's prime minister groping for a way to salvage the nascent peace process. > Thousands protest at Eta airport bomb attack Independent > Thousands protest after Madrid airport bombing (Roundup) Monsters and > Critics.com > Fox 12 Boise - Guardian Unlimited - The Age - Telegraph.co.uk > all 825 news articles > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:16:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: observe the new year... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe in democracy. I believe in grassroots in their tiniest form. I believe that without thousands of small supporters, there's no franchise. I refuse to operate a reading series by executive edict! I'll put this before you one last time, as it ends at midnight: http://observable.org/dollar/ I firmly believe that everybody has a dollar. Cheers for a happy new year! Belz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 17:23:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Patchen in color? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, =20 Just a quick query to ask if there's an edition out there of Kenneth Patche= n's "picture-poems" (ie. vispo) in color? =20 I have b&w editions of *Wonderings* and *Hallelujuah Anyway* and would like= to these and more in color if they are available. =20 Thanks.David Harrison Horton=20 unionherald.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help. http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=3Dimprove&local= e=3Den-US&source=3Dwlmemailtaglinenov06= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:49:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Baghdad Burning is back Comments: cc: "Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics"@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, UK POETRY Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ Riverbend is back with two new accounts - after a long period of not posting on her blog. Entirely chilling, but entirely worth it. The horror of what Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld & Rice have created in Iraq is beyond measure. If there is any vestige of justice left in 'our' justice system and Congress, these folks ought to be up for immediate grabs. May that be - as well - a New Year's wish & reality. Other than all that, Happy New Year all! Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:42:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: The Argotist Online: Interviews with Poetry Editors on the Future of Poetry Publishing Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu Interviews with Poetry Editors on the Future of Poetry Publishing http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Interviews%20with%20Poetry%20Editors.htm In light of the the New Statesman article by Neil Astley, 'Poetry For People', and the vigorous reactions that my blog entry concerning it provoked at The Poem forum I thought it would be interesting to discuss some of the wider implications that Astley’s concerns in the article suggest, and how these relate to such matters as: poetry and publishing, and the future of poetry in printed form and on the Internet. To do this, I have gathered responses from the following editors to a set of questions regarding these issues. Tim Allen John M. Bennett Jake Berry Andrew Duncan Ken Edwards Tony Frazer Susana Gardner Geoffrey Gatza Rupert Loydell Alan May Douglas Messerli Peter Philpot Michael Rothenberg Martin Stannard ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kate Easton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- here are some pix of a volcanic island rising from the sea -- considering the Rockies haven't done that in more than a few geologic eras, it sure is a sight, scrolling down -- http://yacht-maiken.blogspot.com/2006/08/stone-sea-and-volcano.html -- happy new year, heidi arnold www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com www.heidiarnold.org