========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:12:56 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "When we're all eating the litter of our former selves we'll be nicer to everyone along the way who needs a hand." I can't help but think that's a bit naive, or else I'm missing the irony. There are poor assholes and rich assholes; there are people who have lost everything who have become more violent and those who have become less violent. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:33:49 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Lew, Walter" Subject: PAOLO JAVIER at the U. of Miami: Thurs., Oct. 2nd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Poet and multimedia performance artist PAOLO JAVIER will present new work a= t the University of Miami, Coral Gables campus. WHEN: Thursday, October 2nd, 5:00 pm. WHERE: CAS Gallery, The Wesley Center, 1210 Stanford Drive, U. of Miami, Co= ral Gables. ADMISSION: Free. PARKING: Free (after 4:00 pm) in the Pavia Parking Structure, right across = the street behind the Wesley Center. Based in Queens, NY, Paolo Javier is currently a Visiting Professor in the = Creative Writing program of the U. of Miami's Dept. of English. His books i= nclude LMFAO (OMG Press), Goldfish Kisses (Sona Books), 60 lv bo(e)mbs (O B= ooks), and the time at the end of this writing (Ahadada), which received a = Small Press Traffic Book of the Year Award. Javier is co-editor of book rev= iews for Boog City, edits and publishes the online journal 2nd Ave Poetry, = and was a 2007/8 Lower Manhattan Cultural Council Writer-in-Residence. "brain-racing improvs...spun out on tropical and topical and political and = polyvocal chords. These poems carry the youth of the world a whole step for= ward in all possible ways." --Fanny Howe *** Walter K. Lew Dept. of English University of Miami P.O. Box 248145 Coral Gables, FL 33124 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:00:38 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: gabrielle's novel, _dora_, published on-line! go buy! go buy! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII dear family and friends, i have finally (21 years!) finished the novel i started writing when annie was born (paula gunn allen suggested i write and publish it--i wish she were here to see it up on-line), and the same publisher who has my dissertation at his site has put _Dora_ up there too. go to http://www.theguildofwriters.com/books/shop.php?action=full&id=378 to order it (i think you need paypal). you will make my day for months to come if you'll buy a copy ($11.18). it comes as a pdf downloaded to your computer. i've checked it out, and it works. i'm really happy to see it up there--though, of course, as soon as i downloaded it, i wanted to edit it again immediately. it makes a big difference to imagine it being seen by other people--a different view. the publisher's intro is a bit strange, but read _Dora_ and tell me what you think. many blessings, gabrielle ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:22:06 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm against the bailout too, but I am against it because I don't think it's the government's business to be involved in business. Let the free market take care of itself. On the other hand, I don't hate the rich business owners like so many of you on the Left, as I realize that these are the people who provide us with all the things we enjoy, and also provide all the job -- well, all the jobs that are not provided for through robbery, as government jobs are. I don't understand the glee in those who are wealthy because they engaged in peaceful trade with others, while the same people expressing such glee excuse the butchers running Leftist governments around the world. I am, on the other hand, not entirely bothered by these government-controlled and -regulated companies the Democrats have used as their own personal monetary playgrounds going under, as it demonstrates the wickedness of the Left and of government involvement in the economy. The lesson that should be learned here is that the government has failed us all -- again. I doubt, though, that that lesson is the one that will be learned, as too many want to believe the outright lies of the Left. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:43:19 AM Subject: EXCITED for the math When the Dow (the Tao of the wicked) plummeted 777 points yesterday I felt awe and relief. In our age we don't need to arrive at the castle gates with pitchforks and torches, the rich will undo themselves. "Average folks" will also suffer everyone's saying. Aren't we already? The makeshift village of NICKELVILLE was attacked the other night by POLICE! The homeless cannot even be allowed homelessness. When I was a kid my mother and I lived in our car for a little more than half a year. It's a terrible thing to have to live like that. But the problem with our culture the way it is is that unless A LOT of people are living like that, few will do anything to help. We have SO MUCH in this country SO MANY resources, there's no reason we can't change the way we're living and be better people for one another. Let the numbers dive into the abyss! When we're all eating the litter of our former selves we'll be nicer to everyone along the way who needs a hand. When I think back on the people who were brutal to us when we were living in that car, I also think about the handful of folks who were generous. Every single person who was generous was poor themselves, barely enough for their own tables. Let the numbers escape them! Let this be the most amazing time of our lives! I'm NOT ONE TO PRAY, but I'm praying that on Thursday there's still no deal, and that the numbers crash and burn them out of their mansions and country clubs. GRACIAS A LA VIDA! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:03:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: on JONATHAN WILLIAMS as Outsider Art Collector MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This new essay with photos by my friend Elizabeth Kriwin of Asheville will be of interest: http://www.fairiesinamerica.com/fairy-writing/american-fairies-a-myth-of-origin/ We went to visit Jonathan about five years ago, which is when she took these photos. If you look at the photograph of the house, there's a tree on the right side of the photo in front of the house. That tree is a Franklinia, brought back by Jonathan as a sapling in the 1950s when he first visited Philadelphia and sat beneath Bartram's Franklina tree named after Bartram's good friend Benjamin Franklin. Jonathan's amazing poems for Bartram wound up in the New Directions book AN EAR IN BARTRAM'S TREE, terrific poems! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:07:48 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Allegrezza Subject: Series A--Special Wave Books Reading Comments: To: wallegre@iun.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please come tonight to the Series A literary reading. The series is held at the Hyde Park Art Center (5020 S. Cornell, Chicago). Oct 1, 6:00-8:00 p.m. Special Wave Books Reading! Suzanne Buffam Shrikanth Reddy Catherine Wagner Chuck Stebelton Richard Meier Lisa Fishman BYOB. It's easy to get to from the CTA and Metra, and it's right off LSD. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:43:34 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Reality Too" September Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends and Colleagues: Here is the September edition of "Reality Too": http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/blog/September.htm Mirror site: http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/Blog/September.htm Introduction: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/blog/intro.htm Designed for MS Explorer; Text Size: Medium; 1024X768 screen resolution. -Joel =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:53:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Hayden Carruth - 1921 - 2008 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I send this sad news received as forward to another list: *From: *Michael Wiegers *Date: *September 30, 2008 11:45:00 AM PDT *Subject: **Hayden Carruth* It is with great sadness that I am writing to tell you that we have lost another of our great poets. Hayden Carruth passed away last night, at home, in the company of his family. His poems, books, and encouragements were foundational to Copper Canyon and much of our present day work would not be happening were it not for him. He was dearly loved here at the Press and will be greatly missed. Michael Wiegers ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 07:58:26 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a pessimist as it concerns "human nature,"=A0 and violence. Still, as a= n experiment in social Darwinism, I'd love to see the rich scramble for=A0b= onzo=A0beans=A0in a soup line.=A0 I have a mean streak. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- O= riginal Message ----=0AFrom: Elizabeth Switaj =0ATo: POET= ICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:12:56 PM=0AS= ubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0A"When we're all eating the litter of= =0Aour former selves we'll be nicer to everyone along the way who needs a= =0Ahand."=0A=0AI can't help but think that's a bit naive, or else I'm missi= ng the=0Airony. There are poor assholes and rich assholes; there are people= who=0Ahave lost everything who have become more violent and those who have= =0Abecome less violent.=0A=0AElizabeth Kate Switaj=0Awww.elizabethkateswita= j.net=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buf= falo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:19:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: James Cervantes Subject: Fall, 2008 issue of The Salt River Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The Fall 2008 issue of The Salt River Review is now online. Poetry by =C1lvaro Leiva, Pablo Neruda, Zhuang Yisa, Ren Powell, Charmi Keranen, Sarah Browning, Laura Jensen, Millicent Borges Accardi, Greg Simon= , Katharine Salzmann, David Brendan Hopes, Muriel Nelson, Gwyn McVay. Belles Lettres: Wherein prose poems, nonfiction, essays, and other writings are found: Simon Peter Eggertsen, Laura Jensen, Anny Ballardini, Greg Simon= , Paul Sampson. Fiction by Roberta Allen, David Bowen, Sarah Freese, Rosemary Jones, Eva Konstantopoulos, Ellen Birkett Morris, Gavin Tierney. http://www.poetserv.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:08:24 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Kevin Killian's What I Saw at the Orono Conference, 2008 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi All-- Kevin is posting this year's Orono report on my blog: http://dodie-bellamy.blogspot.com/ The first 4 of many installments are now online. With pictures! Check it out. Dodie ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:59:57 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Keala's film, "Noho Hewa"--go see it and vote for it, and (or if you're not in hawai'i) please donate! (fwd) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII dear Hawai'i and non-Hawai'i friends all, my friend Keala Kelly's film, "Noho Hewa: The Wrongful Occupation of Hawai'i," has been accepted into the Honolulu Film Festival. The premiere will be at DOLE CANNERY on OCTOBER 13, at 6 PM. This is the ONLY film in the festival by a Hawaiian (or anyone else) that deals with the extreme effects of militarization, tourism, and GMO on Native Hawaiians and the land in Hawai'i. It's very important that as many people as possible go see this film and vote for it at the premiere. That's one of the few ways a film can make it out into the world. The importance of this is not about personalities or individuals, but about getting the real information about Hawai'i out into the world. PLEASE GO SEE IT and, very importantly, VOTE FOR IT! You can see a trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P-gkEp1A4k. If you are not in Hawai'i (and also if you are), Keala's website is www.nohohewa.com. Please also go there and donate--she needs to convert the film to digi-beta, which costs about $300, and to survive for the next month. She is focusing completely on the film and cannot work till it's done. Keala recently coordinated and helped the Al Jazeera film crew to produce their tv documentary on Hawai'i: (Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIq8x9vnLf4 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QqOJGSKGWQ&NR=1). "Noho Hewa" is a film that those of you who are teachers will be using for years to come to inform students about the situation on the ground in Hawai'i. Those of you who are not teachers will want to see "Noho Hewa" to inform yourselves and your friends and families, so the lies about a U.S. "Paradise" in Hawai'i can be stopped. Voting for "Noho Hewa" means shining a public light in militarism, desecration, the Akaka Bill and removal of Hawaiians from their homeland. Your vote will really matter. If this film comes away from this festival without a prize, the issues in the film will remain ignored. Let's not let that happen. blessings to all, gabe ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:23:47 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline NOTE: THE ARTICLE NEGLECTS TO MENTION TWO OTHER NOBEL WINNERS FROM THE USA: SINCLAIR LEWIS AND WILLIAM FAULKNER The Nobel boss left out a huge chunk of the globe, limiting himself to a comparison between European and US American. writers. Even in the relatively limited amount of work available in translation, in the world today are a great many writers of staggering interest,and in term= s formal and of ideas and content, more wide ranging and challenging than their US Americans counterparts. I have always wondered if one could ask that instead of accepting the prize money, one might instead be awarded with the equivalent in dynamite, the invention of which made the Nobel prize possible in the first place. After all, what self respecting literary detonator wants to cede the fields of battle to "explosive best sellers" only! "Literary bombshells!"--Why not the "Explosive Text" that comes complete with detonator and dynamite, making it possible for the reader to complete their perusal of the tome by setting a match to it and throwing it at the target of their choice. And in actuality giving the wishy-washy term "allowing the reader to create their own meanings" some "real force of emphasis." Who knows, the authors themselves might find that they are the target of some of these engines of destruction they have set forth in this unpredictable world of roaming "readers at large," or among the halls of academies where their works have been assigned as "text-objects" exemplifying the "aggressive qualities of the avant-garde" that, when joined with "an aggressive but previously nebulous sense of outrgae and injustice," are "with dynamic energies" bringing about "an entirely new Form and Genre, that of the Sponteneously Combustible Word." As one august personage put it most sagely--"Therefore returning to the Word its Powers o= f Revleation via the combination of the Aesthetic and the Chemcial Sublime." One ecstatic winner of the Nobel tonnage of dyamite even went so far as to stand tall against incoming American drones, greeting them with shoulder propelled launchings of his "explosive texts" and chanting a slogan in a made up and truly terrifying sound language to the effect that if the pen is mighteir than the sword, why not, just for the principle of "more bang for the buck," combine the two--and with a couple of quick dance moves launched another of his works straight into the Belly of the Beast, an incoming Transport Helicopter.loaded to the gills with men and materiel. l'ojo de la mano htpp://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com [image: The Associated Press] Go to Google News Related News - Nobel judge attacks 'ignorant' US literature guardian.co.uk - 4 hours ago - U.S. lit gets dissed Chicago Tribune - 9 hours ago - Nobel literature chief: US writing too 'insular' The Associated Press - 23 hours ago Full coverage =BB (c)2008 Google - Map data (c)2008 Tele Atlas - Terms of Use Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete By MALIN RISING and HILLEL ITALIE =96 15 hours ago STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) =97 Bad news for American writers hoping for a Nobel Prize next week: the top member of the award jury believes the United State= s is too insular and ignorant to compete with Europe when it comes to great writing. Counters the head of the U.S. National Book Foundation: "Put him in touch with me, and I'll send him a reading list." As the Swedish Academy enters final deliberations for this year's award, permanent secretary Horace Engdahl said it's no coincidence that most winners are European. "Of course there is powerful literature in all big cultures, but you can't get away from the fact that Europe still is the center of the literary worl= d ... not the United States," he told The Associated Press in an exclusive interview Tuesday. He said the 16-member award jury has not selected this year's winner, and dropped no hints about who was on the short list. Americans Philip Roth and Joyce Carol Oates usually figure in speculation, but Engdahl wouldn't comment on any names. Speaking generally about American literature, however, he said U.S. writers are "too sensitive to trends in their own mass culture," dragging down the quality of their work. "The U.S. is too isolated, too insular. They don't translate enough and don't really participate in the big dialogue of literature," Engdahl said. "That ignorance is restraining." His comments were met with fierce reactions from literary officials across the Atlantic. "You would think that the permanent secretary of an academy that pretends t= o wisdom but has historically overlooked Proust, Joyce, and Nabokov, to name just a few non-Nobelists, would spare us the categorical lectures," said David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker. "And if he looked harder at the American scene that he dwells on, he would see the vitality in the generation of Roth, Updike, and DeLillo, as well as in many younger writers, some of them sons and daughters of immigrants writing in their adopted English. None of these poor souls, old or young, seem ravaged by the horrors of Coca-Cola." Harold Augenbraum, executive director of the foundation which administers the National Book Awards, said he wanted to send Engdahl a reading list of U.S. literature. "Such a comment makes me think that Mr. Engdahl has read little of American literature outside the mainstream and has a very narrow view of what constitutes literature in this age," he said. "In the first place, one way the United States has embraced the concept of world culture is through immigration. Each generation, beginning in the lat= e 19th century, has recreated the idea of American literature." He added that this is something the English and French are discovering as immigrant groups begin to take their place in those traditions. The most recent American to win the award was Toni Morrison in 1993. Other American winners include Saul Bellow, John Steinbeck and Ernest Hemingway. As permanent secretary, Engdahl is a voting member of and spokesman for the secretive panel that selects the winners of what many consider the most prestigious award in literature. The academy often picks obscure writers and hardly ever selects best-sellin= g authors. It regularly faces accusations of snobbery, political bias and eve= n poor taste. Since Japanese writer Kenzaburo Oe won the award in 1994, the selections have had a distinct European flavor. Nine of the subsequent laureates were Europeans, including last year's winner, Doris Lessing of Britain. Of the other four, one was from Turkey and the others from South Africa, China and Trinidad. All had strong ties to Europe. Engdahl said Europe draws literary exiles because it "respects the independence of literature" and can serve as a safe haven. "Very many authors who have their roots in other countries work in Europe, because it is only here where you can be left alone and write, without bein= g beaten to death," he said. "It is dangerous to be an author in big parts of Asia and Africa." Kwame Anthony Appiah, a leading African scholar and a professor of philosophy at Princeton University, said that there has been a long history of American writers being influenced by authors elsewhere and in turn havin= g an impact overseas, including in Europe. "Is America really a diminished presence in the literary world? That's not the sense you get looking at European book stores. I'm always amazed how many of the books in German or Italian bookstores are translations from American English," Appiah said. "The big dialogue of literature isn't just going on in Paris and Frankfurt ... I assume even Engdahl agrees it is not centered on Stockholm," he said. The Nobel Prize announcements start next week with the medicine award on Monday, followed by physics, chemistry, peace and economics. Next Thursday is a possible date for the literature prize, but the Swedish Academy by tradition only gives the date two days before. Engdahl suggested the announcement date could be a few weeks away, saying "it could take some time" before the academy settles on a name. Each Nobel Prize includes a $1.3 million purse, a gold medal and a diploma. The awards are handed out Dec. 10, the anniversary of prize founder Alfred Nobel's death in 1896. *Italie contributed from New York.* Hosted by [image: Google] Copyright (c) 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:16:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Hosea Subject: Friday, Oct. 10 @ 8pm: Hosea, Christle & more @ The Lucky Cat, Williamsburg, BYLN Comments: To: Amy Dickinson , Ana Bozicevic-Bowling , Article Art and the Imaginative Promise , Joel Anderson , "The Blue Letter (Chris and Cecily)" , Amy Touchette , Andrew Roberts , amoharre@english.umass.edu, Colin Apse , Betsy Beier , Chip Brantley , George Bissias , Kim Bennett , Scott Bridi , Sommer Browning , Cecily Iddings , Catherine Taylor , Chris Koh , Craig Thomas , Danny Coudriet , Ian Clark , Rob's Computer , Devin Hosea , "Jeffrey D. Lependorf" , daraw@hfa.umass.edu, Thom Donovan , Jennifer DePrima , david.canter@db.com, Elizabeth Hughey , "kmeek@english.umass.edu" , Elissa Leichter , Nicole Steinberg , Ear Inn Poetry , Eddie Carlson , Editors No , Editors of n+1 , editrice@journal1913.org, Fred Schmalz , Joe Fletcher , flis@english.umass.edu, Greg Zinman , Kate Garklavs , Nathaniel Greene , Peter Gizzi , Sarah Gibbons , Will Georgantas , Lawrence Giffin , Kate Greenstreet , geck044@earthlink.net, Jeannie Hoag , Steph Hosea , Stephanie Hosea , "Thomas Heise, Prof." , John Hennessy , Lauren Ireland , Iowa Review , Alexis Lyons , iandreiblatt@gmail.com, janke , Jung Yun , Kathy Hosea , Richard James , Jim Behrle , Ken Moon , katalanchepress@gmail.com, Libby Burton , Justin Lacour , matt longabucco , Ricardo Maldonado , Billy Merrell , Myles Paige , Mark Yakich , Rusty Morrison , Leah Masci , Madeleine , Michael Broder , "casey.st@comcast.net" , nshinday@gmail.com, nichols.travis@gmail.com, octopusmagazine@gmail.com, "Zach Barocas, Publisher" , the reading , Victoria Rosen , Hila Ratzabi , smith.david.william@gmail.com, Tom , wlsalinger@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Autumn Rhythms: Chris Hosea & Heather Christle w/Jennifer Kikoler, Levi Rubeck, & Claire Shefchik Friday, October 10, 8 pm @ The Lucky Cat, 245 Grand St. (b/w Driggs & Roebling), Williamsburg, BKLYN, 11211 More info at: www.earshotnyc.com [image: http://michaelpsilva.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2006WELJA0347.jpg] ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:50:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Last call! Poetry submissions requested for Big Bridge 2009 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends and neighbors-- For a third mini-anthology of poems, this time inspired by / responding to / related to Barbara Guest's poem "Eating Chocolate Ice Cream: Reading Mayakovsky" and/or the various wars/insurgencies/etc. going on in the world today, please send 1-6 poems and a brief bio to me at halvard@earthlink.net with the words "Big Bridge" followed by your own name clearly in the subject line. Please, when sending attachments, send all poems in a single attachment. Also include a photo if you'd care to have one used. This mini-anthology will appear in the January 2009 issue of Big Bridge, and work received before the end of November 2008 will be considered. The current mini-anthology can be found at http://www.bigbridge.org/WAR-PAP.HTM. If you haven't had a response to work already received, please forgive. All decisions will be made in earlyish December. Thank you. And please pass this message along. HJ Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ==== Eating Chocolate Ice Cream: Reading Mayakovsky Since I've decided to revolutionize my life since " decided " revolutionize " life " How early it is! It is eight o'clock in the morning. Well, the pigeons were up earlier Did you eat all your eggs? Now we shall go for a long walk. Now? There is too much winter. I am going to admire the snow on your coat. Time for hot soup, already? You have worked for three solid hours. I have written forty-eight, no forty-nine, no fifty-one poems. How many states are there? I cannot remember what is uniting America. It is then time for your nap. What a lovely, pleasant dream I just had. But I like waking up better. I do admire reality like snow on my coat. Would you take cream or lemon in your tea? No sugar? And no cigarettes. Daytime is good, but evening is better. I do like our evening discussions. Yesterday we talked about Kant. Today let's think about Hegel. In another week we shall have reached Marx. Goody. Life is a joy if one has industrious hands. Supper? Stew and well-cooked. Delicious. Well, perhaps just one more glass of milk. Nine o'clock! Bath time! Soap and a clean rough towel. Bedtime! The Red Army is marching tonight. They shall march through my dreams in their new shiny leather boots, their freshly laundered shirts. All those ugly stains of caviar and champagne and kisses have been rubbed away. They are going to the barracks. They are answering hundreds of pink and yellow and blue and white telephones. How happy and contented and well-fed they look lounging on their fur divans, chanting "Russia how kind you are to us. How kind you are to everybody. We want to live forever." Before I wake up they will throw away their pistols, and magically factories will spring up where once there was rifle fire, a roulette factory, where once a body fell from an open window. Hurry dear dream I am waiting for you under the eiderdown. And tomorrow will be more real, perhaps, than yesterday. --Barbara Guest fr. Angel Hair 5, Spring 1968 in The Angel Hair Anthology [New York: Granary Books, 2001] Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:09:07 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable why give the reader a chance "to find their own meanings" when the explosiv= e text can deliver the REAL thing? What would Mishma (excuse spelling) thin= k? After the great Japanese samuri won the nobel, he, and I think his cult,= committed hari (again spelllllinggg) kari. NO MORE CODDLING THE BOURGEOISE= READER!!! LET THEM EAT THE TEXTEATTHETEXTEAT///// =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Origin= al Message ----=0AFrom: David Chirot =0ATo: POETICS= @LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, October 1, 2008 1:23:47 PM=0ASubje= ct: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete=0A=0ANOTE:=0ATHE ARTIC= LE NEGLECTS TO MENTION TWO OTHER NOBEL WINNERS FROM THE USA:=0ASINCLAIR LEW= IS AND WILLIAM FAULKNER=0A=0AThe Nobel boss left out a huge chunk of the gl= obe, limiting himself to a=0Acomparison between European and US American. w= riters.=0A=0AEven in the relatively limited amount of work available in tra= nslation, in=0Athe world today are a great many writers of staggering inter= est,and in terms=0Aformal and of ideas and content, more wide ranging and c= hallenging than=0Atheir US Americans counterparts.=0A=0AI have always wonde= red if one could ask that instead of accepting the prize=0Amoney, one might= instead be awarded with the equivalent in dynamite, the=0Ainvention of whi= ch made the Nobel prize possible in the first place.=0A=0AAfter all, what s= elf respecting literary detonator wants to cede the fields=0Aof battle to "= explosive best sellers" only!=0A=0A"Literary bombshells!"--Why not the "Exp= losive Text" that comes complete=0Awith detonator and dynamite, making it p= ossible for the reader to complete=0Atheir perusal of the tome by setting a= match to it and throwing it at the=0Atarget of their choice.=A0 And in act= uality giving the wishy-washy=A0 term=0A"allowing the reader to create thei= r own meanings" some "real force of=0Aemphasis."=A0 Who knows, the authors = themselves might find that they are the=0Atarget of some of these engines o= f destruction they have set forth in this=0Aunpredictable world of roaming = "readers at large," or among the halls of=0Aacademies where their works hav= e been assigned as "text-objects"=0Aexemplifying the "aggressive qualities = of the avant-garde"=A0 that, when=0Ajoined with "an aggressive but previous= ly nebulous sense of outrgae and=0Ainjustice," are "with dynamic energies"= =A0 bringing about "an entirely new=0AForm and Genre, that of the Sponteneo= usly Combustible Word." As one august=0Apersonage put it most sagely--"Ther= efore returning to the Word its Powers of=0ARevleation via the combination = of the Aesthetic and the Chemcial Sublime."=0A=0AOne ecstatic winner of the= Nobel tonnage of dyamite even went so far as to=0Astand tall against incom= ing American drones, greeting them with shoulder=0Apropelled launchings of = his "explosive texts" and chanting a slogan in a=0Amade up and truly terrif= ying sound language to the effect that=A0 if the pen=0Ais mighteir than the= sword, why not, just for the principle of=A0 "more bang=0Afor the buck," c= ombine the two--and with a couple of quick dance moves=0Alaunched another o= f his works straight into the Belly of the Beast, an=0Aincoming Transport H= elicopter.loaded to the gills with men and materiel.=0A=0Al'ojo de la mano= =0Ahtpp://davidbaptistechirot.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A[image: The Associated P= ress]=0AGo to Google News =0ARelate= d News=0A=0A=A0 - Nobel judge attacks 'ignorant' US=0Aliterature=0A=A0 guardi= an.co.uk - 4 hours ago=0A=A0 - U.S. lit gets=0Adissed=0A=A0 Chi= cago Tribune - 9 hours ago=0A=A0 - Nobel literature chief: US writing too= =0A'insular'=0A=A0 The Associated Press - 23 hours ago=0A=0AFull coverage = =BB=0A(c)2008 Google - Map data= (c)2008 Tele Atlas - Terms of=0AUse=0ANobel literature head: US too insular to compete=0A=0ABy= MALIN RISING and HILLEL ITALIE =96 15 hours ago=0A=0ASTOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP= ) =97 Bad news for American writers hoping for a Nobel=0APrize next week: t= he top member of the award jury believes the United States=0Ais too insular= and ignorant to compete with Europe when it comes to great=0Awriting.=0A= =0ACounters the head of the U.S. National Book Foundation: "Put him in touc= h=0Awith me, and I'll send him a reading list."=0A=0AAs the Swedish Academy= enters final deliberations for this year's award,=0Apermanent secretary Ho= race Engdahl said it's no coincidence that most=0Awinners are European.=0A= =0A"Of course there is powerful literature in all big cultures, but you can= 't=0Aget away from the fact that Europe still is the center of the literary= world=0A... not the United States," he told The Associated Press in an exc= lusive=0Ainterview Tuesday.=0A=0AHe said the 16-member award jury has not s= elected this year's winner, and=0Adropped no hints about who was on the sho= rt list. Americans Philip Roth and=0AJoyce Carol Oates usually figure in sp= eculation, but Engdahl wouldn't=0Acomment on any names.=0A=0ASpeaking gener= ally about American literature, however, he said U.S. writers=0Aare "too se= nsitive to trends in their own mass culture," dragging down the=0Aquality o= f their work.=0A=0A"The U.S. is too isolated, too insular. They don't trans= late enough and=0Adon't really participate in the big dialogue of literatur= e," Engdahl said.=0A"That ignorance is restraining."=0A=0AHis comments were= met with fierce reactions from literary officials across=0Athe Atlantic.= =0A=0A"You would think that the permanent secretary of an academy that pret= ends to=0Awisdom but has historically overlooked Proust, Joyce, and Nabokov= , to name=0Ajust a few non-Nobelists, would spare us the categorical lectur= es," said=0ADavid Remnick, editor of The New Yorker.=0A=0A"And if he looked= harder at the American scene that he dwells on, he would=0Asee the vitalit= y in the generation of Roth, Updike, and DeLillo, as well as=0Ain many youn= ger writers, some of them sons and daughters of immigrants=0Awriting in the= ir adopted English. None of these poor souls, old or young,=0Aseem ravaged = by the horrors of Coca-Cola."=0A=0AHarold Augenbraum, executive director of= the foundation which administers=0Athe National Book Awards, said he wante= d to send Engdahl a reading list of=0AU.S. literature.=0A=0A"Such a comment= makes me think that Mr. Engdahl has read little of American=0Aliterature o= utside the mainstream and has a very narrow view of what=0Aconstitutes lite= rature in this age," he said.=0A=0A"In the first place, one way the United = States has embraced the concept of=0Aworld culture is through immigration. = Each generation, beginning in the late=0A19th century, has recreated the id= ea of American literature."=0A=0AHe added that this is something the Englis= h and French are discovering as=0Aimmigrant groups begin to take their plac= e in those traditions.=0A=0AThe most recent American to win the award was T= oni Morrison in 1993. Other=0AAmerican winners include Saul Bellow, John St= einbeck and Ernest Hemingway.=0A=0AAs permanent secretary, Engdahl is a vot= ing member of and spokesman for the=0Asecretive panel that selects the winn= ers of what many consider the most=0Aprestigious award in literature.=0A=0A= The academy often picks obscure writers and hardly ever selects best-sellin= g=0Aauthors. It regularly faces accusations of snobbery, political bias and= even=0Apoor taste.=0A=0ASince Japanese writer Kenzaburo Oe won the award i= n 1994, the selections=0Ahave had a distinct European flavor. Nine of the s= ubsequent laureates were=0AEuropeans, including last year's winner, Doris L= essing of Britain. Of the=0Aother four, one was from Turkey and the others = from South Africa, China and=0ATrinidad. All had strong ties to Europe.=0A= =0AEngdahl said Europe draws literary exiles because it "respects the=0Aind= ependence of literature" and can serve as a safe haven.=0A=0A"Very many aut= hors who have their roots in other countries work in Europe,=0Abecause it i= s only here where you can be left alone and write, without being=0Abeaten t= o death," he said. "It is dangerous to be an author in big parts of=0AAsia = and Africa."=0A=0AKwame Anthony Appiah, a leading African scholar and a pro= fessor of=0Aphilosophy at Princeton University, said that there has been a = long history=0Aof American writers being influenced by authors elsewhere an= d in turn having=0Aan impact overseas, including in Europe.=0A=0A"Is Americ= a really a diminished presence in the literary world? That's not=0Athe sens= e you get looking at European book stores. I'm always amazed how=0Amany of = the books in German or Italian bookstores are translations from=0AAmerican = English," Appiah said.=0A=0A"The big dialogue of literature isn't just goin= g on in Paris and Frankfurt=0A... I assume even Engdahl agrees it is not ce= ntered on Stockholm," he said.=0A=0AThe Nobel Prize announcements start nex= t week with the medicine award on=0AMonday, followed by physics, chemistry,= peace and economics. Next Thursday=0Ais a possible date for the literature= prize, but the Swedish Academy by=0Atradition only gives the date two days= before.=0A=0AEngdahl suggested the announcement date could be a few weeks = away, saying=0A"it could take some time" before the academy settles on a na= me.=0A=0AEach Nobel Prize includes a $1.3 million purse, a gold medal and a= diploma.=0AThe awards are handed out Dec. 10, the anniversary of prize fou= nder Alfred=0ANobel's death in 1896.=0A=0A*Italie contributed from New York= .*=0A=A0 Hosted by [image: Google]=0ACopyright (c) 2008 The Associated Pres= s. All rights reserved.=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics Lis= t is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub in= fo: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:27:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Douglas Manson Subject: Re: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline David, While the Nobel committee's remarks seem a bit provocative, I tend to agree with them. Maybe they were asked to consider American authors for the award, prompted by those who may think America is beginning to feel left out, since there hasn't been a literature laureate here for over 15 years. Their perception might be accurate, as I too think there is a dearth of translation, that we aren't widely encouraged to read translations, and that those which do get published are poorly distributed or rarely discussed. I won't even try to account for the plummeting of reading practices among U.S. citizens under 30, but it seems to be at an epidemic stage right now. There is also a damaging lack of large-scale commitments to serious translation projects, projects that should be a priority in our literary culture. This also comes with a widespread absence of second-language instruction in our grammar schools. On top of all this, the literary-critical community has been shying away from ideas of a "national" literature for some decades. This must play a role in the perception of "insularity" in American literature, even if it seems counterintuitive: it might just be the defining characteristic of American literature today that there is an almost unanimous agreement among authors and critics that it lacks any defining characteristics. Maybe we are insular in that we don't have enough critical distance to even help develop a useful picture of ourselves. And why does Roberto Bolano's _Savage Detectives_ seem like the best American novel of the past 20 years to me? As for the "explosive" best sellers: I am reminded of a remark made by Christopher Morley of the Algonquin Roundtable, belle-lettrist of the "Knothole" hermitage in Nassau County: "Printer's ink has been running a race against gunpowder these many, many years. Ink is handicapped, in a way, because you can blow up a man with gunpowder in half a second, while it may take twenty years to blow him up with a book. But the gunpowder destroys itself along with its victim, while a book can keep on exploding for centuries." peace, Doug ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:50:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Deborah Poe Subject: query on readings in orlando area (for march 2009) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am trying to find possible reading venues between March 13-22 in the Orlando, Florida area. I would be grateful for any information/advice. Deborah Poe ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:36:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: query on readings in orlando area (for march 2009) [on behalf of Russell Golata] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: blacksox@att.net The Mystery guest is Carmen Lopez from Panama Deborah --back channel me for more info--or getting you involved too Russ Golata EVERY 3RD Wednesday @ Austin's An Orlando Poetry Group presentation Featuring: Mystery Guest? & The Best Open Mic Anywhere Wednesday October 15, @ 8:30pm Austin's Coffee and Film 929 W Fairbanks Ave. Winter Park, Florida A very special Mystery Guest Orlando's Best Open Mic (You voted) Laughing Uncontrollably Hosted by Lilly's Open Words ,& Russ Golata For directions or comments e-mail me at blacksox@att.net Or phone me at 407-403-5814 Or AUSTIN'S at 407-975-3364 http://poetry.meetup.com/362/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:41:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: 2 October Dos Press readings in TX: Trinity University & Domy Books [on behalf of Julia Drescher] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *Subject:*2 October Dos Press readings in TX: Trinity University & Domy Books *From:*"Little Red Leaves" Dos Press is thrilled to announce that there will be 2 TX readings for the launch of book three, featuring *Rosa Alcal=E1*, *Ash Smith*, and *Sasha Steensen*. We hope to see everyone who's able to make it, & please feel fre= e to circulate this announcement. Both events are free and open to the public= : *1. Trinity University, San Antonio* *Friday October 10 at 4PM* *Tehuacana Room, upstairs in Coates University Center* This event will feature readings from all three authors, as well as a discussion of small press publishing. Reception to follow. *Directions to Trinity University*: http://www.trinity.edu/departments/public_relations/tour/route.html *Campus Map*, including visitor parking areas and Coates University Center (#2 on map): http://www.trinity.edu/departments/public_relations/ tour/map/color_campus_map_new.pdf For parking at Trinity: There are a number of visitor parking spaces at the main entrance to campus in front of the Coates Center. People can also park across Stadium Drive in the Alamo Stadium parking lot, right across from campus as you come off the highway. *2. DOMY Books, Austin* *Saturday October 11 at 7PM * *913 E Cesar Chavez Austin, TX 78702* Directions to Domy Books: http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3Dutf-8&client=3D firefox-a&q=3Ddomy+books&near=3DAustin,+TX&view=3Dtext Domy Books announcement: http://www.domystore.com/austin/atx_invites/dospress.html *Reader bios*: *Sasha Steensen* is an Assistant Professor at Colorado State University. Sh= e holds a B.A. in History and an M.F.A. in Creative Writing from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, as well as a PhD in Poetics from SUNY Buffalo. Steensen teaches poetry workshops, literature courses, letterpress printing, and bookmaking. She is the author of The Method(Fence Books, 2008), A Magic Book, which won the Alberta duPont Bonsal Prize (Fence Books= , 2004), The Future of an Illusion (Dos Press, 2008), and correspondence (wit= h Gordon Hadfield, Handwritten Press, 2004). Her poetry has appeared in numerous journals, includingDenver Quarterly, Aufgabe, Goodfoot, Free Verse= , Slope, Shearsman, Shiny, and La Petit Zine. Her essays and reviews have appeared in journals such as Boston Review, Chain, P-queueand Interim. She is currently working on a hybrid project, which is part poetry, part memoir= , part history of the Back-to-the-Land movement of the 1970's. Steensen is also co-editor of Bonfire Press (http://bonfirepress.colostate.edu), and she serves as one of the poetry editors for Colorado Review. Steensen's work online: http://littleredleaves.com/LRL2/steensen.html http://handwritten.org/downloads/hadfield-steensen.pdf *Rosa Alcal=E1* received her MFA from Brown University and her Ph.D. in English from the State University of New York at Buffalo. In 2003, Some Maritime Disasters This Centurywas published as a limited edition by Belladonna/Boog Books (New York).Undocumentaries, a selection of poems, is forthcoming from Dos Press. Her poems have also appeared in The Wind Shifts= : New Latino Poetry, edited by Francisco Arag=F3n (U of AZ Press, 2007), and Cinturones de =F3xido: de Buffalo con amor / Rust Belt Encounters: From Buffalo with Love, translated by Ernesto Liv=F3n-Grosman and Omar P=E9rez (= Torre de Letras, La Habana, Cuba, 2005). Alcal=E1 has translated Cecilia Vicu=F1a= 's El Templo (Situations Press, 2001 ) and Cloud-net (Art in General, 1999). Her translation of Vicu=F1a's essay-poem, "Ubixic del Decir, 'Its Being Said': = A Reading of a Reading of the Popol Vuh," was published in With Their Hands and Their Eyes: Maya Textiles, Mirrors of a Worldview, Etnografish Museum (Belgium, 2003). Alcal=E1's translation of Bestiary: The Selected Poems of Lourdes V=E1zquez was published by Bilingual Press in 2004. Forthcoming is = a co-translation (with M=F3nica de la Torre) of Lila Zemborain's Malvas Orqu=EDdeas del Mar/ Mauve Sea Orchids (Belladonna). She has also translate= d poems for the forthcomingOxford Book of Latin American Poetry. Her poems, translations, and reviews have been published widely in a variety of literary journals, including the Barrow Street, Brooklyn Rail, tripwire, Kenyon Review, and Mandorla. She has held artist residencies and has given talks and readings in the U.S., Spain, Cuba, and Scotland. Alcal=E1's work online: http://www.actionyes.org/issue7/alcala/alcala1.html *Ash Smith* has lived mostly in Central Texas and the Rio Grande Valley where she has worked with environmental and educational programs. She is currently finishing a full length manuscript at Texas State University. Water Shed, from Dos Press, is her first chapbook. Smith's work online: http://webdelsol.com/DIAGRAM/7_1/smith.html Below are details on purchasing Dos book 3: *ANNOUNCING DOS PRESS CHAPBOOK #3* 1 book, 2 spines, 3 authors. Featuring: Rosa Alcal=E1's UNDOCUMENTARY Ash Smith's WATER SHED Sasha Steensen's THE FUTURE OF AN ILLUSION Also featuring a selection of images from TX artist/writer Roberto Ontiveros. Copies are available here: http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id= =3D 15438331 --=20 325 Mill Rd. Maxwell, TX 78656 www.dospress.blogspot.com www.littleredleaves.com --=20 www.littleredleaves.com www.littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:44:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: UBUWEB :: Featured Resources Oct. 2008 - Selected by Gary Sullivan [on behalf of Kenny Goldsmith] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: UbuWeb __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com UbuWeb Featured Resources: October 2008 Selected by Gary Sullivan 1. Jaap Blonk's sound files http://www.ubu.com/sound/blonk.html 2. Dada Magazine http://www.ubu.com/historical/dada/index.html 3. Drew Gardner's sound files http://www.ubu.com/sound/gardner.html 4. Kenneth Goldsmith, editor, "Publishing the Unpublishable" series http://ubuweb.com/ubu/unpub.html 5. George Kuchar's films (especially "Corruption of the Damned") http://www.ubu.com/film/kuchar.html 6. Anders Lundgerg, Jonas Magnusson and Jesper Olsson, editors, "After Language Poetry" papers http://www.ubu.com/papers/oei/index.html 7. Paper Rad's "P-Unit Mixtape" http://ubuweb.com/film/paperrad_p.html 8. Bern Porter's page http://www.ubu.com/historical/porter/index.html 9. Jerome Rothenberg's Ethnopoetics : Soundings page (especially "Ca Dao, Vietnamese Folk Poems") http://www.ubu.com/ethno/soundings.html 10. Survival Research Laboratories, "Virtues of Negative Fascination" http://ubuweb.com/film/srl_virtues.html Poet and cartoonist Gary Sullivan lives in Brooklyn with Nada Gordon. Together, they wrote the book Swoon. Gary's most recent book is PPL in a Depot. He has published three issues of a comic book, Elsewhere, and maintains a blog by the same name at http://garysullivan.blogspot.com. UBUWEB IS ENTIRELY FREE __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com -- UbuWeb http://ubu.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:55:16 -0400 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Metres Subject: new on Behind the Lines poetry blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Enjoy! http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com September posts: So My Dad Says to Me, "You Look Just Like the Terrorist from United 93" Wilfred Owen, from Voices in Wartime This is Your Nation on White Privilege "Winston's Atomic Bird" by Boston Spaceships Behind the Lines: War Resistance Poetry on the American Homefront Another Reason to Vote for Barack Obama: He's Arab-American! Summer Literary Seminar in St. Petersburg Utah Phillips on EVERYTHING Howard Zinn, the Walt Whitman of Historians Is Gabriel Schwartz for Real? (File Under "Four More Yores") "Patronymic" on the Crisis Chronicles Online Library Naomi Shihab Nye on Peace in the Middle East Felix: A Series of New Writing (featuring Mark Nowak...) The Metres Reading at the Literary Cafe in Cleveland Martin Espada on the Effects of 9/11 on the Language Dr. Eyyad Serraj, on the Necessity of Non-Violent... "Attention Span 2008": My List of Recommended Poetry Books "The Ash Tree" on "The Crisis Chronicles Online Library Sarah Palin Believes Iraq War is "God's Plan." Amy Bracken Sparks and Philip Metres, reading on 9/11 "Mirrorrim": Visual Poetry as Self-Portrait The New No Spin Zone: Why the Daily Show Is Better... The Arrests of Amy Goodman, Nicole Salazar, and... Writers & Their Friends Literary Showcase this Saturday Poets for Palestine now out Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com http://www.behindthelinespoetry.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:38:12 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: Posting Policy Reminder + Welcome Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ***All posts to the list must provide ** your full real name**, as registered. 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C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Posting to the List 3. Subscriptions 4. Subscription Options 5. To Unsubscribe 6. Cautions 7. Flaming -------------------------------------------- June 2008: Refocussed List Policy In line with our editorial focus, we do not automatically post submissions but select those we think are most useful for sustaining this online community. We appreciate all submissions, but will be more selective in what we choose to post. Queries for contact info, messages intended for just a few subscribers, messages that are not on topic, "flame" messages, and free-standing personal poems or journal entries will, in general, not be forwarded to the list. 1. Posting to the List Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. While we recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange, we request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. The Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms of modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to doing what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. The Poetics List is a moderated list. Posts are limited to list subscribers. All messages are reviewed by the editors in keeping with the goals of the list as articulated in this Welcome Message. The listserv is intended to be a productive communal space for discussion and announcements; as such, subscribers who do not follow listserv policy will be removed from the subscription roll. Please note that this list is primarily concerned with discussions of poetry and poetics. We strongly encourage subscribers to post information, including web links, relating to publications (print and internet), reading series, and blogs that they have coordinated, edited or published, or in which they appear. Such announcements constitute a core function of this list. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications (print or digital) are always welcome. The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange of poems. 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This, of course, includes racist, sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or criticism of the person. http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:34:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tom Orange Subject: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline the obvious contradiction here is plain for all to see: "I don't think it's the government's business to be involved in business," and yet "The lesson that should be learned here is that the government has failed us all -- again." government has failed us PRECISELY because it failed to regulate business. regards, tom orange On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 12:00 AM, troy camplin wrote: > > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:22:06 -0700 > From: Troy Camplin > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > I'm against the bailout too, but I am against it because I don't think it's > the government's business to be involved in business. Let the free market > take care of itself. On the other hand, I don't hate the rich business > owners like so many of you on the Left, as I realize that these are the > people who provide us with all the things we enjoy, and also provide all the > job -- well, all the jobs that are not provided for through robbery, as > government jobs are. I don't understand the glee in those who are wealthy > because they engaged in peaceful trade with others, while the same people > expressing such glee excuse the butchers running Leftist governments around > the world. I am, on the other hand, not entirely bothered by these > government-controlled and -regulated companies the Democrats have used as > their own personal monetary playgrounds going under, as it demonstrates the > wickedness of the Left and of government involvement in the economy. The > lesson that > should be learned here is that the government has failed us all -- again. > I doubt, though, that that lesson is the one that will be learned, as too > many want to believe the outright lies of the Left. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: CA Conrad > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:43:19 AM > Subject: EXCITED for the math > > When the Dow (the Tao of the wicked) plummeted 777 points yesterday I felt > awe and relief. In our age we don't need to arrive at the castle gates > with > pitchforks and torches, the rich will undo themselves. > > "Average folks" will also suffer everyone's saying. Aren't we already? > The > makeshift village of NICKELVILLE was attacked the other night by POLICE! > The homeless cannot even be allowed homelessness. > > When I was a kid my mother and I lived in our car for a little more than > half a year. It's a terrible thing to have to live like that. But the > problem with our culture the way it is is that unless A LOT of people are > living like that, few will do anything to help. We have SO MUCH in this > country SO MANY resources, there's no reason we can't change the way we're > living and be better people for one another. > > Let the numbers dive into the abyss! When we're all eating the litter of > our former selves we'll be nicer to everyone along the way who needs a > hand. When I think back on the people who were brutal to us when we were > living in that car, I also think about the handful of folks who were > generous. Every single person who was generous was poor themselves, barely > enough for their own tables. > > Let the numbers escape them! Let this be the most amazing time of our > lives! I'm NOT ONE TO PRAY, but I'm praying that on Thursday there's still > no deal, and that the numbers crash and burn them out of their mansions and > country clubs. > > GRACIAS A LA VIDA! > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:56:50 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Instead of the Nobel Prize for lit, why not the Vulgar prize, awarded to th= ose poets/playwrights/and authors who excell in intellectually compelling, = offensive texts. How many Nobel winners would fit both catagories? Pirandel= lo's "Six characters in Search of=A0An Author" caused riots when it was fir= st produced. He would certainly qualify.=A0Would any American?=0A=0AIt's po= ssible to be both insular and innovative.=A0Faulkner: the man was obsessed = with the tragic history of the South; he hated anything to do with travel. = He simply wrote/wrote/wrote some of the=A0most breathtaking,=A0risky prose = of the 20th century. Hemingway, of course, was the exact opposite, a globet= rotting word painter. &=A0of course, Eliot is awarded the prize, but WCW is= ignored. & Williams is the father, or Whitman son, of all American poetry,= especially the=A0innovative. =A0=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: Small Press Traffic Presents An Evening of Experimental Fiction 10/3/08 [on behalf of Dana Teen Lomax] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Small Press Traffic Presents An Evening of Experimental Fiction 10/3/08 Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: An Evening of Experimental FictionBack By Popular Demand! Featuring Innovative Fiction Writers: Jaime Cortez, Kate Schatz, Leni Zumas,R. Zamora Linmark, and Sesshu Foster This is an event not to be missed! Friday, October 3, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Lecture Hall Refreshments will be served Join us! Jaime Cortez is a San Francisco Bay Area artist, writer and cultural worker. He was raised between Mexicali, Baja California and Watsonville, Alta California. Jaime's extensive experience includes work in AIDS prevention, education, and arts management. His graphic novella, Sexile, about a transgender HIV activist from Cuba, was nominated for an American Library Association Award, and the HIV prevention comic anthology Turnover, which he edited, was a finalist for the Independent Publishers award. Jaime has exhibited his visual art at venues across the Bay Area including the Berkeley Art Museum and Pacific Film Archive, Oakland Museum of California, The Lab, and other alternative art spaces. He has been working on a short story collection slated for publication in 2008 by Suspect Thoughts Press. Kate Schatz lives in Oakland and is the author of Rid of Me: A Story, published by Continuum Press as part of their acclaimed 33 1/3 series. She's a co-founder and editor of the Encyclopedia Project, and her work can be found in Bitch!, Denver Quarterly, LTTR, Kitchen Sink, and various other publications. She received her MFA in Literary Arts from Brown University, and a double BA in Women's Studies/Literature with a Creative Writing concentration from UCSC. Kate is currently working on a novel about electroshock therapy and Christian Science, and a story collection called Help You To See Forever Too. Leni Zumas is the author of the story collection Farewell Navigator (Open City). Her work has appeared in New York Tyrant, Quarterly West, Harp & Altar, New Orleans Review, and elsewhere. A 2008 Fellow in Fiction from the New York Foundation for the Arts, she teaches creative writing at Hunter College. R. Zamora Linmark is the author of the novel Rolling The R's, which he's adapted for the stage, and two poetry collections, Prime Time Apparitions and the just-published The Evolution of a Sigh. A recipient of numerous grants and fellowships, his prose, poetry, and essays have appeared in journals and anthologies in the U.S. and the Philippines. Currently at work on another novel and a collaborative book project with Lisa Asagi, Justin Chin, and Lori Takayesu, Linmark divides his time between Manila and Honolulu. Sesshu Foster has taught in East L.A. for twenty years, as well as at the University of Iowa, the University of California, Santa Cruz and the California Institute for the Arts. His work has been anthologized in The Oxford Anthology of Modern American Poetry and, recently, Language for a New Century: Contemporary Poetry from the Middle East, Asia, and Beyond. His local readings are archived at . His most recent books are the novel Atomik Aztex (City Lights Books, 2005) and World Ball Notebook (City Lights Books, 2009). Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com < http://www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com> ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:53:31 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicholas Ruiz III Subject: love on -empyre- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit October 2008, 'love' on -empyre- 'love' "Oh my friends, there is no friend..." Jacques Derrida, quoting Montaigne, quoting Aristotle...in his treatise on friendship. "There are no equals, only rivals..." Constantine in the BBC docudrama, 'Ancient Rome: The Rise and Fall of an Empire'...as he cultivated an empire of Christian love. "For nails would not have held God-and-Man fast to the Cross, had love not held Him there..." Saint Catherine of Siena One supposes in life that some things are possible. Love is one of these things, no? We presume such a thing is possible? But what if love were impossible? Our relationship with love, god (and the infinity of price and spectacle), is recently articulated in Damien Hirst’s 'For the Love of God' (2007), Platinum skull, 8,601 diamonds and human teeth,(17.1 x 12.7 x 19.1 cm). $100 million. A record: the highest price ever paid for the work of a living artist. One marvels that we can any longer, truly render Aquinas’ corporeal metaphors for spiritual things. As for love: some euphoria of the genetic Code and capitalizations as currencies of that Code? A molecular symphony of melancholy and bliss? As for God: Neurotransmissions? A battery of concepts, like 8,601 diamonds in the rough? All of which pale in comparison, perhaps, to what is wished for in the impossibility of love as the gift of some Other? So two things: god and love. Every major religion of the world syncopates these two concepts, paradoxically, via the utilization of conceptual infinity, and one concept’s weakness becomes the other concept’s strength: the horizon of god’s love is endless, and the horizon of one’s love for god, should be too. Yes, that is it: love is the purview of sacrifice. We must bleed for love. This is the claim of the disciple; the saint, and poet. But there are no saints any longer, and poetry is endangered, if not extinct. And the sacred, by definition, is always exterminated as a functional violence of the holy service. Is there no love, and instead, only relations of sacrifice? Join us in this thematic discussion and we shall see... http://www.subtle.net/empyre/ ============================================================== Co-moderated by Nicholas Ruiz III (US)...Daytona State College...America in Absentia (Intertheory, 2008)...Editor, Kritikos. with special guests Owen Ware (CA)...University of Toronto..."Love Speech" Critical Inquiry, v.34, no.3, (Spring 2008). Edgar Landgraf (US)...Bowling Green State University...Improvisation, Art and the Art of Living (forthcoming), "Romantic Love and the Enlightenment" German Quarterly, 77/1 (Winter 2004). Dr. Nicholas Ruiz III Associate Professor of Humanities School of Humanities and Communication Daytona State College Building 230, Room 101A Daytona Beach, FL 32120-2811 ************************************ Editor, Kritikos http://intertheory.org ************************************ Center for Interdisciplinary Writing and Research http://daytonastate.edu/ciwr ************************************ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:56:15 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@gmail.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Organization: Borderbend Arts Collective Subject: Chicago Calling event at WNUR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thursday, October 2, 7 p.m.=20 WNUR 89.3 FM 1877 Campus Drive Northwestern University Evanston, IL 60208 www.wnur.org=20 performers at WNUR:=20 Ren=E9e Baker -- violin Taalib-Din Ziyad -- vocals=20 Jon Godston -- soprano saxophone=20 Saalik Ziyad -- vocals=20 Shirazette Tinnin -- drums Fred Jackson -- saxophone Joshua Manchester -- drums Dan Godston -- trumpet Ritwik Banerji -- saxophone Alex Wing -- upright bass performers at Mills College:=20 David Harrison Horton -- poetry Christopher M. Skebo -- trumpet Karl A. D. Evangelista -- electric guitar Jason Hoopes -- upright bass Akiko Hatakeyama -- flute Tom=E1s Diaz -- electric guitar Curtis McKinney -- upright bass Chris Brown -- live computer processing of the instruments Alex Vittum -- drum set Jordan Glenn -- percussion performers in Richmond, VA:=20 JC Kuhl -- saxophone Brian Jones -- drums This event features live audio connections between WNUR and Mills = College (Oakland, CA) and Richmond, Virginia. The connection with Mills College begins at 9 p.m. Central Time Zone / 7 p.m. Pacific Time Zone. The performance will be broadcast live, on WNUR=97at 89.3 FM, and streaming = live at www.wnur.org. $5 suggested donation, to be an audience member at = WNUR. This event is part of the Third Annual Chicago Calling Arts Festival. = The complete schedule of CCAF3 events can be found at = www.chicagocalling.org. Tickets can be purchased at the venues, or in advance at http://chicagocalling.safestorefront.com. =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 13:09:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... In-Reply-To: <916042.44506.qm@web52406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The Nobel is the Oscar for lit. And since no Oscar was given to There Will Be Blood, imagine the Nobel. On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:56 AM, steve russell wrote: > Instead of the Nobel Prize for lit, why not the Vulgar prize, awarded to > those poets/playwrights/and authors who excell in intellectually compelling, > offensive texts. How many Nobel winners would fit both catagories? > Pirandello's "Six characters in Search of An Author" caused riots when it > was first produced. He would certainly qualify. Would any American? > > It's possible to be both insular and innovative. Faulkner: the man was > obsessed with the tragic history of the South; he hated anything to do with > travel. He simply wrote/wrote/wrote some of the most breathtaking, risky > prose of the 20th century. Hemingway, of course, was the exact opposite, a > globetrotting word painter. & of course, Eliot is awarded the prize, but WCW > is ignored. & Williams is the father, or Whitman son, of all American > poetry, especially the innovative. > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:14:26 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: I DUNNO - VOTE? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I DUNNO ABOUT THIS DEMOCRATIC VOTING SYSTEM, BUT YOU KNOW, GIVE IT A GO? T= ELL SOME BLOKES? STUDENTS? =A1RENTS? EXES? SOMEBODY? EVERYONE? HERE ARE SOME FAMOUS PEOPLE TO MOCK YOU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D0vtHwWReGU0 IF IT=A2S GOING TO BE A CLOSE ELECTION, WELL, YOU ONLY HAVE A COUPLE DAYS L= EFT TO REGISTER.=A0 I GUESS. http://maps.google.com/vote _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:56:30 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable amid the weirdness &=A0insanity of D.C., I've given my own listserv post a = little thought, and there are plenty or a few American writers worthy of th= e highly esteemed, non existent=A0Vulgar prize: remember, the writing must = be intellectually compelling, as well as potentially offensive to the mains= tream. & the nominees are as follows: Kathy Acker, early Ginsberg, William = Burroughs (the=A0naked lunch=A0obsenity trial/Mailer speaks=A0on behalf on = Burroughs)=A0and... stretching the concept of author, whoever it was who di= rected "Pink Flamingoes," the Baltimore guy. I can't think of anyone curren= t besides the Baltimore filmmaker, but I've been holed up in a bomb shelter= for the last 15 years. & besides, all that meth i=A0snorted in 3rd grade c= ivics class has taken its toll on me, sadsadsad. Maybe that explains why I = never made it past 5th grade. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro= m: steve russell =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.ED= U=0ASent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 10:56:50 AM=0ASubject: The Vulgar Nobel= /William Carlos...=0A=0AInstead of the Nobel Prize for lit, why not the Vul= gar prize, awarded to those poets/playwrights/and authors who excell in int= ellectually compelling, offensive texts. How many Nobel winners would fit b= oth catagories? Pirandello's "Six characters in Search of=A0An Author" caus= ed riots when it was first produced. He would certainly qualify.=A0Would an= y American?=0A=0AIt's possible to be both insular and innovative.=A0Faulkne= r: the man was obsessed with the tragic history of the South; he hated anyt= hing to do with travel. He simply wrote/wrote/wrote some of the=A0most brea= thtaking,=A0risky prose of the 20th century. Hemingway, of course, was the = exact opposite, a globetrotting word painter. &=A0of course, Eliot is award= ed the prize, but WCW is ignored. & Williams is the father, or Whitman son,= of all American poetry, especially the=A0innovative. =A0=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept = all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetic= s/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:41:18 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete In-Reply-To: <60466cc60810011727n410b1545saa94168df3a8fc74@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Douglas and Stephen and all-- I think you can see from my letter that I agree with the Capo di Capi at the Nobel; I simply extended his range from Europe to the rest of the world. Something which has interested me for some time and I have written about, is why it is that Savage Detectives is the one Bolano book that is always mentioned by Americans, when several other, and better, of his works are avaialble in translation from New Directions. I have a feeling that works such as By Night in Chile, usually conisdered his masterpiece, especially in terms of the writing, Distant Star and Nazi Literature of the Americas have received less attetion, as have Amulet, also about Meixco, the events of 1968 and many of the young poets who show up in Savage Detectives, and Last Evenings on Earth, a collection of excellent short stories. The first three named, especailly, are profound explorastions of the connections between modern poetry--and in Distant Star's case, multi-media poetry--and Fascism, torture and violence. Since the By Night in Chile and Distant Star (itself a novella developed from the last entry in the Nazi Literature book, the best seeling of Bolano's works in Latin America) are centered around the events of 9/11/73 in Chile, and include written and unwritten allusion to the American inolvement in these events and their aftermath, perhaps readers in the USA prefer to ignore them for the youth-notalgia of Savage Detectives, which excludes the sinister aspects of the times. The house which figures in the final scenes of By Night in Chile is being considered to be made a museum today in Chile, for in it a novelist and her American husband held the most glittering literary salon of the Pinochet Era, attended by many of the cream of literary-critical establishment who felt themselves above the coup. It turned out that the American husband was an American agent in chrage of tortures in the basement underneath the literary salon, and the Chilean wife later found herself and their children abandoned by him, when he sought refuge somehwere in the USA. The long arm of this nightmare period extends to several of the exiled Chilean and Latin American writers and friends in the stories of Last Evenings on Earth. The current events in Central and Latin America are part of a huge movement to push out for good the influence and oppression of the US, to rid the region of the economic policies which are now catching up to the Anmericans themselves, and to say good riddance for ever to the Monroe Doctrine, a Doctrine which even Obama re-embraced during the campaign earlier this year. There is also the question of the Inidegenous, which threatens the US in the form of the president of Bolivia, Morales, who is an Indian and the first Indigenous person elected the head of a country anywhere in the world. The USA refused to sin the International Recognition of Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which means that its own Indians remain as a population without the same rights as the rest of the people. I wonder if another roadblock to translation is the discouragement towards other languages which is so marked in the US--that "why should we learn their languages when everybody learns English anyaway," and the continual attempts to make English the official language. Immigrants who arrived were supposed to assimilate into the new language, and their children to neglect the language of their parents. Eventually this became a form of traveling away from foreign languages as much as possible in all areas of the society, though the immigrants continue to arrive. Perhaps "foreign languages" are connected in a subconsious way with the "non-American" pre-American exitsence of the ancestors, which needs to be "buried" as it were. After all, one finds a great many Americans who rant about the "evil Europens" who arrived and sluaghtered the Indians and destroyed the envirnoment--and yet those same "evil Europeans" were the forebearers of the Americans of today. It is as though the forebearers and their languages are insome way not at all related to the Americans of the present, who rage about the evils of the Western Civilization in the Western hemisphere, via the tenets of Western philosphy and ethics. A disconnect with the past is created in which the enlgithened present carries onas though perhaps purified of the past, and so does not connect it in anyway with the actions of the present. If one is afarid of foreigness and the past, is one not then locked into an insularity in space and time, in which what is demanded is an endless imperial expansion as a continual sign of "triumph" and "rightness"? It may seem paradoxical to be insualr and at the ame time on Imperilaist rampages--yet all one has to do is mobilize the insularity, so that its encounters with the foreign aboard are in terms of "new land and peoples to conquer." That is, to destory for the most part, so they are not in fact actual people but "foriegners," "aliens and "their value of life is inferiro to ours." The same rhetoric runs throughout American history, from the non-human Indian to the "let Asian boys fight Asians Wars" becuase "they don't value life as highly as we do" of Vietnam to the same thing todayy regrading Palestinains, Irqis, Iranins, Pakistanis, Afghans, Pashtun, whoever the guns are trained on next. "Illegal aliens" with in the US" are treated in the same manner, as are an ever growing number of Americans overcrowding the American prison system. The intesne insanity greeting the "Bailout" is the same that greeted "foreign attacks" on 9/11 and led to the "immediate danger and urgency" of the "swiftly victoris wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq, where the Americans were to be greeted with floers and crowds asking for bubble gum with cards of the conquering heroes. "We are being attacked!" the Senators and Congresspersons and Paulson are all screaming--the Bailout has to right now!! It's as though some "alien entity" has invaded the otherwise noble and righteous American sytem and immediate and extreme actions have to be taken, following which Paulson will pretty much be respsonable to no one but himself. A coup will have taklen place that was voted on with al the reasoning involved in going completely hysterically hallucinatorilly mad. The "fear of the foreign" oddly begn with the first sights of the new World and its indigenous peoples-- (Actually Stepeh, Mishima never won the Nobel Prize; the year that he thought that he might, his fellow countryman Kawabata Yasunari won, a great writer considered in Japan more Jpanese than Mishima, who despite his Nationalism and wanting to return to the militarism of the Japanese past, was regarded as being much more Western influenced than Kawabata. In Mishima's Sun and Steel, the original birth of his ideas of the beautiful body occurred during a trip to Greece, and were truly awakened by the sight of the young men in a fesitavl on his return to japan. The Literal "trajectory" of his thinking on ":sun and steel" finds its ultimate expression in a short piece following the text, in which he recounts his ascent in a fighter plane. This extraordinary combination of mysticism, militarism and the body-militant turnsinto the kind of aestheticized poetry of pure speed as pure being of a Futurist Fascism which Marinetti never even dreamed of. In Mishima's novel Forbidden Colors, the protagaonist is a man so beautiful that when making love with is beautiful wife, he sees himself watching himself making love to himself, rather than with her. Mishima's writing and works in film trace the arc of this intenisification of desire for physical and youthful male beauty with that of the warrior at the moment of death, in the serrvice of an ideal higher than his own flesh--that of the Emperor, symbol of a Deity of a Nationalsim which is really Mishima's cult of the hero Mishima, saving the Nation , failing and dying the great and most honorbale of deaths. It is an incredoible and long prpepared for moment of theater as action which he had "rehearsed for" in the film almost a decde earlier in which he commits with his wife a ritual sepuuku. The apotheosis of male auto- eroticism, the fascistic aesthetisization of the body militant which becomes at one with a jet fighter, at one with the Emperor, at one with the Japan of the samuruai and at one with death--Mishima carried al this out literally "to the hilt." And also wrote of it in a way that goes beyond even the most elbaorate of the e texts in Klaus Theweleit's monumental masterpiece, the two volume Male Fantasies. On the morning of his final day, Mishima wrote the last pages of his great tetraology, titlted ironically after that place on the Moon called "The Sea of Fertility." The name of the book is "The Decay of the Angel" and it as some of Mishima's most beaitufl writing in it, and its ending is "perfectly staged" as it were for the words and scene that are to be the author's last. On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Douglas Manson wrote: > David, > While the Nobel committee's remarks seem a bit provocative, I tend to agree > with them. Maybe they were asked to consider American authors for the > award, prompted by those who may think America is beginning to feel left > out, since there hasn't been a literature laureate here for over 15 years. > Their perception might be accurate, as I too think there is a dearth of > translation, that we aren't widely encouraged to read translations, and > that > those which do get published are poorly distributed or rarely discussed. I > won't even try to account for the plummeting of reading practices among > U.S. > citizens under 30, but it seems to be at an epidemic stage right now. > There > is also a damaging lack of large-scale commitments to serious translation > projects, projects that should be a priority in our literary culture. This > also comes with a widespread absence of second-language instruction in our > grammar schools. On top of all this, the literary-critical community has > been shying away from ideas of a "national" literature for some decades. > This must play a role in the perception of "insularity" in American > literature, even if it seems counterintuitive: it might just be the > defining characteristic of American literature today that there is an > almost > unanimous agreement among authors and critics that it lacks any defining > characteristics. Maybe we are insular in that we don't have enough > critical > distance to even help develop a useful picture of ourselves. And why does > Roberto Bolano's _Savage Detectives_ seem like the best American novel of > the past 20 years to me? > > As for the "explosive" best sellers: I am reminded of a remark made by > Christopher Morley of the Algonquin Roundtable, belle-lettrist of the > "Knothole" hermitage in Nassau County: > > "Printer's ink has been running a race against gunpowder these many, many > years. Ink is handicapped, in a way, because you can blow up a man with > gunpowder in half a second, while it may take twenty years to blow him up > with a book. But the gunpowder destroys itself along with its victim, > while > a book can keep on exploding for centuries." > > peace, > Doug > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:36:53 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Weinstein Subject: Readers Wanted! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi everyone, I've been fairly quiet the past few months on POETICS, but have decided that the completion of my first MS would be a good way to break the silence. If anyone would be willing to read *What Happens to Light* (46 poems, approx. 65 pages), please shoot me an e-mail and I'll forward you the MS in whatever format is easiest for you (although it currently exists as a Word document). Any feedback, criticism, questions, answers, vitriol, praise, etc. etc. would be far more than welcome, especially if you would be so kind as to do so by the end of the month. If you want a smaller sample before committing to the whole shebang, some of my most recent poems can be found in Vol. 2.3 of Prick of the Spindle ( http://www.prickofthespindle.com/). Thanks in advance, Eric -- Eric Weinstein eric.q.weinstein@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:36:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: billy little Subject: Re: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" maybe gabriel gudding or al sondheim ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve russell" To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 07:56:50 -0700 Instead of the Nobel Prize for lit, why not the Vulgar prize, awarded to those poets/playwrights/and authors who excell in intellectually compelling, offensive texts. How many Nobel winners would fit both catagories? Pirandello's "Six characters in Search of An Author" caused riots when it was first produced. He would certainly qualify. Would any American? It's possible to be both insular and innovative. Faulkner: the man was obsessed with the tragic history of the South; he hated anything to do with travel. He simply wrote/wrote/wrote some of the most breathtaking, risky prose of the 20th century. Hemingway, of course, was the exact opposite, a globetrotting word painter. & of course, Eliot is awarded the prize, but WCW is ignored. & Williams is the father, or Whitman son, of all American poetry, especially the innovative. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --=20 Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:32:30 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Apparently you are unfamiliar with the two ways of using the word "business," which I use for effect. Also, the government failed us because of the regulations it has on the books and because it "encouraged" (and we all know what it means when government "encourages" you to do something) Fannie Mae to encourage subprime loans. Consider this article from 1999 where a free market economist predicted that this would happen: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&&scp=2&sq=holmes%20fannie%20mae&st=cse The only contradiction lies in anyone believing the government has any business being in business -- or that the government is here to help you and not to rob you of what you have. People go into government because they want to rule others. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Tom Orange To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 9:34:15 AM Subject: EXCITED for the math the obvious contradiction here is plain for all to see: "I don't think it's the government's business to be involved in business," and yet "The lesson that should be learned here is that the government has failed us all -- again." government has failed us PRECISELY because it failed to regulate business. regards, tom orange On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 12:00 AM, troy camplin wrote: > > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:22:06 -0700 > From: Troy Camplin > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > I'm against the bailout too, but I am against it because I don't think it's > the government's business to be involved in business. Let the free market > take care of itself. On the other hand, I don't hate the rich business > owners like so many of you on the Left, as I realize that these are the > people who provide us with all the things we enjoy, and also provide all the > job -- well, all the jobs that are not provided for through robbery, as > government jobs are. I don't understand the glee in those who are wealthy > because they engaged in peaceful trade with others, while the same people > expressing such glee excuse the butchers running Leftist governments around > the world. I am, on the other hand, not entirely bothered by these > government-controlled and -regulated companies the Democrats have used as > their own personal monetary playgrounds going under, as it demonstrates the > wickedness of the Left and of government involvement in the economy. The > lesson that > should be learned here is that the government has failed us all -- again. > I doubt, though, that that lesson is the one that will be learned, as too > many want to believe the outright lies of the Left. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: CA Conrad > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:43:19 AM > Subject: EXCITED for the math > > When the Dow (the Tao of the wicked) plummeted 777 points yesterday I felt > awe and relief. In our age we don't need to arrive at the castle gates > with > pitchforks and torches, the rich will undo themselves. > > "Average folks" will also suffer everyone's saying. Aren't we already? > The > makeshift village of NICKELVILLE was attacked the other night by POLICE! > The homeless cannot even be allowed homelessness. > > When I was a kid my mother and I lived in our car for a little more than > half a year. It's a terrible thing to have to live like that. But the > problem with our culture the way it is is that unless A LOT of people are > living like that, few will do anything to help. We have SO MUCH in this > country SO MANY resources, there's no reason we can't change the way we're > living and be better people for one another. > > Let the numbers dive into the abyss! When we're all eating the litter of > our former selves we'll be nicer to everyone along the way who needs a > hand. When I think back on the people who were brutal to us when we were > living in that car, I also think about the handful of folks who were > generous. Every single person who was generous was poor themselves, barely > enough for their own tables. > > Let the numbers escape them! Let this be the most amazing time of our > lives! I'm NOT ONE TO PRAY, but I'm praying that on Thursday there's still > no deal, and that the numbers crash and burn them out of their mansions and > country clubs. > > GRACIAS A LA VIDA! > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:43:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ah but alot of not so rich folk own stocks and rely heavily on them for income thankfully i am not of that ilk On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:43:19 -0400 CA Conrad writes: > When the Dow (the Tao of the wicked) plummeted 777 points yesterday I > felt > awe and relief. In our age we don't need to arrive at the castle > gates with > pitchforks and torches, the rich will undo themselves. > > "Average folks" will also suffer everyone's saying. Aren't we > already? The > makeshift village of NICKELVILLE was attacked the other night by > POLICE! > The homeless cannot even be allowed homelessness. > > When I was a kid my mother and I lived in our car for a little more > than > half a year. It's a terrible thing to have to live like that. But > the > problem with our culture the way it is is that unless A LOT of > people are > living like that, few will do anything to help. We have SO MUCH in > this > country SO MANY resources, there's no reason we can't change the way > we're > living and be better people for one another. > > Let the numbers dive into the abyss! When we're all eating the > litter of > our former selves we'll be nicer to everyone along the way who needs > a > hand. When I think back on the people who were brutal to us when we > were > living in that car, I also think about the handful of folks who > were > generous. Every single person who was generous was poor themselves, > barely > enough for their own tables. > > Let the numbers escape them! Let this be the most amazing time of > our > lives! I'm NOT ONE TO PRAY, but I'm praying that on Thursday > there's still > no deal, and that the numbers crash and burn them out of their > mansions and > country clubs. > > GRACIAS A LA VIDA! > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:07:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit john watewrs balt guy hey henry miller a host of others depending on yer definition of vulgar On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:56:30 -0700 steve russell writes: > amid the weirdness & insanity of D.C., I've given my own listserv > post a little thought, and there are plenty or a few American > writers worthy of the highly esteemed, non existent Vulgar prize: > remember, the writing must be intellectually compelling, as well as > potentially offensive to the mainstream. & the nominees are as > follows: Kathy Acker, early Ginsberg, William Burroughs (the naked > lunch obsenity trial/Mailer speaks on behalf on Burroughs) and... > stretching the concept of author, whoever it was who directed "Pink > Flamingoes," the Baltimore guy. I can't think of anyone current > besides the Baltimore filmmaker, but I've been holed up in a bomb > shelter for the last 15 years. & besides, all that meth i snorted in > 3rd grade civics class has taken its toll on me, sadsadsad. Maybe > that explains why I never made it past 5th grade. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: steve russell > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 10:56:50 AM > Subject: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... > > Instead of the Nobel Prize for lit, why not the Vulgar prize, > awarded to those poets/playwrights/and authors who excell in > intellectually compelling, offensive texts. How many Nobel winners > would fit both catagories? Pirandello's "Six characters in Search > of An Author" caused riots when it was first produced. He would > certainly qualify. Would any American? > > It's possible to be both insular and innovative. Faulkner: the man > was obsessed with the tragic history of the South; he hated anything > to do with travel. He simply wrote/wrote/wrote some of the most > breathtaking, risky prose of the 20th century. Hemingway, of course, > was the exact opposite, a globetrotting word painter. & of course, > Eliot is awarded the prize, but WCW is ignored. & Williams is the > father, or Whitman son, of all American poetry, especially > the innovative. > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:11:37 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Country Valley Subject: Restoration Poems by Ed Baker Comments: To: CV@buffalo.edu, Press@buffalo.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear friends: Ed Baker's Restoration Poems is now available from the CVP website: http://web.mac.com/countryvalley "Here is the dwelling of past in present. The craft of abiding and an abiding craft. Here is our home to be." --John Martone "To feel an old house being restored actually and within the fresh materials of these poems 'chinked/w a secret/mix', brings us all at once to one fine poet's home: now sit down and read its timbres, words and boards, close to the fire." --David Giannini All the best, Mark Country Valley Press c/o Mark Kuniya 1407 Mission Street, Unit A Gardnerville, Nevada 89410-7221 countryvalley@mac.com http://web.mac.com/countryvalley ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 08:49:51 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: andrew burke Subject: Re: Small Press Traffic Presents An Evening of Experimental Fiction 10/3/08 [on behalf of Dana Teen Lomax] In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Perhaps record it, then post it to a dedicated site. Andrew 2008/10/3 Poetics List : > Subject: Small Press Traffic Presents An Evening of Experimental > Fiction 10/3/08 > > > > Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: > > > > > > An Evening of Experimental FictionBack By Popular Demand! > > > > Featuring Innovative Fiction Writers: > > Jaime Cortez, Kate Schatz, Leni Zumas,R. Zamora Linmark, and Sesshu Foster > > > > This is an event not to be missed! > > > > > > Friday, October 3, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. > > Timken Lecture Hall > > Refreshments will be served > > > > Join us! > > > > > > Jaime Cortez is a San Francisco Bay Area artist, writer > > and cultural worker. He was raised between Mexicali, > > Baja California and Watsonville, Alta California. Jaime's > > extensive experience includes work in AIDS prevention, > > education, and arts management. His graphic novella, > > Sexile, about a transgender HIV activist from Cuba, was > > nominated for an American Library Association Award, > > and the HIV prevention comic anthology Turnover, which > > he edited, was a finalist for the Independent Publishers award. > > Jaime has exhibited his visual art at venues across the > > Bay Area including the Berkeley Art Museum and Pacific > > Film Archive, Oakland Museum of California, The Lab, > > and other alternative art spaces. He has been working > > on a short story collection slated for publication in 2008 > > by Suspect Thoughts Press. > > Kate Schatz lives in Oakland and is the author of Rid > > of Me: A Story, published by Continuum Press as part > > of their acclaimed 33 1/3 series. She's a co-founder > > and editor of the Encyclopedia Project, and her work > > can be found in Bitch!, Denver Quarterly, LTTR, Kitchen > > Sink, and various other publications. She received her > > MFA in Literary Arts from Brown University, and a > > double BA in Women's Studies/Literature with a Creative > > Writing concentration from UCSC. Kate is currently > > working on a novel about electroshock therapy and > > Christian Science, and a story collection called Help > > You To See Forever Too. > > > > Leni Zumas is the author of the story collection Farewell > > Navigator (Open City). Her work has appeared in New > > York Tyrant, Quarterly West, Harp & Altar, New Orleans > > Review, and elsewhere. A 2008 Fellow in Fiction from > > the New York Foundation for the Arts, she teaches > > creative writing at Hunter College. > > > > R. Zamora Linmark is the author of the novel Rolling > > The R's, which he's adapted for the stage, and two poetry > > collections, Prime Time Apparitions and the just-published > > The Evolution of a Sigh. A recipient of numerous grants > > and fellowships, his prose, poetry, and essays have > > appeared in journals and anthologies in the U.S. and the > > Philippines. Currently at work on another novel and a > > collaborative book project with Lisa Asagi, Justin Chin, > > and Lori Takayesu, Linmark divides his time between > > Manila and Honolulu. > > > > Sesshu Foster has taught in East L.A. for twenty years, > > as well as at the University of Iowa, the University of > > California, Santa Cruz and the California Institute for the > > Arts. His work has been anthologized in The Oxford > > Anthology of Modern American Poetry and, recently, > > Language for a New Century: Contemporary Poetry from > > the Middle East, Asia, and Beyond. His local readings > > are archived at . His > > most recent books are the novel Atomik Aztex (City > > Lights Books, 2005) and World Ball Notebook (City > > Lights Books, 2009). > > > > > > Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to > > current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. > > There's no better time to join SPT! > > Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm > > > > Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall > > California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco > > (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). > > > > Directions & map: > > http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm > > > > > > We'll see you Fridays! > > > > _______________________________ > > > > > > Small Press Traffic > > Literary Arts Center at CCA > > 1111 -- 8th Street > > San Francisco, CA 94107 > > 415.551.9278 > > > > http://www.sptraffic.org > > > > www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com < > http://www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Andrew http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:07:32 +0900 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Rowland Subject: call for submissions--Noon: Journal of the Short Poem In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Submissions of previously unpublished short poems (not under consideration elsewhere) are invited for the winter issue of Noon: Journal of the Short Poem. The deadline is the end of October. Please send work in the email message or in a single Word file attachment to noonpress [at] mac [dot] com. Payment for accepted work is made in the form of a contributor copy. Thanks, Philip Rowland ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: clwnwr@earthlink.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Bob Heman Subject: 7th BIG CLWN WR EVENT - Thursday October 16, 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 7th BIG CLWN WR Event Thursday, October 16, 2008 SAFE-T-GALLERY 111 Front Street Gallery 214 DUMBO, Brooklyn 7:00 - 10:00 pm FREE ADMISSION!!! featuring: Paul Pines Phyllis Wat with special guests: Evie Ivy Jane Ormerod Carolyn Ota Adriana Scopino Elizabeth Smith Moira T. Smith George Spencer Nathan Whiting hosted by Bob Heman editor of CLWN WR since 1971 Take the F train to York Street, walk downhill to Front and turn left under the Manhattan Bridge. For more information, maps, and directions from other subway lines please check the Gallery website at http://www.safetgallery.com Bob Heman clwnwr@earthlink.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:49:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Subject: Chicago Calling events at Cafe Mestizo & 32nd&Urban In-Reply-To: <935960.92451.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saturday, October 4, 2 p.m. Caf=E9 Mestizo 1646 W. 18th St.=20 Chicago, IL 60608=20 312.421.5920 =20 www.cafemestizo.com =20 free & open to the public Shelley Nation (poetry) & Juliet Cook (poetry) Rachel Michaels (poetry) & Jodee Winship (poetry) Vittorio Carli (poetry), Carolyn Curtis Magri (visual art), & Brian Imag (dulcimer)=20 Stagebridge -- comedy, storytelling & improv Charlie Newman (poetry / Chicago), Steve Dalachinsky (poetry / New York City), & Stephen Crall (visual art / South Carolina) Bob Rashkow (poetry) & Dale Konstanz (visual art) * * *=20 Sunday, October 5, 2 p.m. 32nd&Urban Gallery 3201 S. Halsted=20 www.myspace.com/32ndurban=20 free & open to the public Kevin Kilroy (poetry) & Susan Taylor (visual art) Jeffrey Helgeson -- performing =93Fall from Grace,=94 a collaboration = with Clayton Horath Joe Roarty (poetry / Chicago) & Duane Vorhees (poetry / Seoul) Robert Klein Engler (poetry / Chicago) & Sally Evans (poetry / Scotland) Leonard de Montbrun (poetry / Chicago) & Don Coorough (poetry / Phoenix) Ring Shout, a musical performance led by George Bailey www.chicagocalling.org=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:43:07 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... In-Reply-To: <7807.96378.qm@web52410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The director you're thinking of is John Waters.=A0 While his early films we= re certainly "shocking" to most middlebrow filmgoers and seemed wonderful t= o the rest of us at the time, his most recent films seem perfectly acceptab= le and less interesting because of that. This is in spite of the fact that = most of them are still entertaining, as well as spin-offs such as a Broadwa= y musical based on Waters Hairspray which I saw recently live and enjoyed v= ery much.=A0 What is shocking, now, anyway?=A0 Could it be that this catego= ry has been exhausted?=A0 I suppose the realm of sexual exploitation and wo= rks of art in which people are killed or hurt still remain shocking as well= as morally repugnant and probably not very good, anyway.=A0 Still, the ide= a of an alternate Nobel is good if there would be any funding for it. Regar= ds, Tom Savage --- On Thu, 10/2/08, steve russell wrote: From: steve russell Subject: Re: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 2:56 PM amid the weirdness &=A0insanity of D.C., I've given my own listserv post a little thought, and there are plenty or a few American writers worthy of = the highly esteemed, non existent=A0Vulgar prize: remember, the writing must be intellectually compelling, as well as potentially offensive to the mainstre= am. & the nominees are as follows: Kathy Acker, early Ginsberg, William Burroughs (the=A0naked lunch=A0obsenity trial/Mailer speaks=A0on behalf on Burroughs)=A0and... stretching the concept of author, whoever it was who di= rected "Pink Flamingoes," the Baltimore guy. I can't think of anyone current besides the Baltimore filmmaker, but I've been holed up in a bomb shelter for the last 15 years. & besides, all that meth i=A0snorted in 3rd grade civics class has taken its toll on me, sadsadsad. Maybe that explains= why I never made it past 5th grade.=20 ----- Original Message ---- From: steve russell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2008 10:56:50 AM Subject: The Vulgar Nobel/William Carlos... Instead of the Nobel Prize for lit, why not the Vulgar prize, awarded to th= ose poets/playwrights/and authors who excell in intellectually compelling, offe= nsive texts. How many Nobel winners would fit both catagories? Pirandello's "Six characters in Search of=A0An Author" caused riots when it was first produced. He would certainly qualify.=A0Would any American? It's possible to be both insular and innovative.=A0Faulkner: the man was obsessed with the tragic history of the South; he hated anything to do with travel. He simply wrote/wrote/wrote some of the=A0most breathtaking,=A0risk= y prose of the 20th century. Hemingway, of course, was the exact opposite, a globetrotting word painter. &=A0of course, Eliot is awarded the prize, but WCW is ignored. & Williams is the father, or Whitman son, of all American poetry, especially the=A0innovative. =A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:02:12 EDT Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ann Bogle Subject: Fall season entries at Ana Verse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Conditions of a Narrator," a 1994 essay/introduction to my ms., Work on What Has Been Spoiled, about women writing, war, and form. "I-dot-I-dot-ippi," parts 1 and 2 Readings by Auden, Ashbery "57 tees from the hey" "Palin-drome" "Marxist-capitalist flowers for believers" Ann Bogle _http://annbogle.blogspot.com_ (http://annbogle.blogspot.com) and at Blog Networks **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:23:46 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: banana republic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After McCain ods on tranquilizers, I confident that Sarah P has what it tak= es to run a "banana republic with nukes." Her knowledge of the Mid/East is = stunning. I'm sure folks in Israel already feel better knowing that=A0Sarah= is around to protect their interest. & as much as I despise the Clintons, = folks in the Mid/East can also take comfort that Sarah, unlike Hillary, won= 't let the facts stand in her way. Drill, baby, drill. =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 09:47:13 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Erik Anderson Subject: Call for Submissions: Bombay Gin 35 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable submissions accepted September 1, '08 - March 1, '09 Please submit 1-8 pages of previously unpublished poetry, prose, translatio= n, artwork, interviews, hybrid work, or otherwise. Submissions will be cons= idered for the fall and spring issues of Bombay Gin as time and space allow= s. For TRANSLATIONS, please include both the original language and English ver= sion; it is the writer's responsibility to receive publication rights for t= he original piece. ARTWORK should be submitted on a CD as a PDF or jpg, with minimum 720DPI; a= ll artwork will be published as grayscale. Unsolicited manuscripts are read= anonymously, so include your name and contact information only on the cove= r letter. Please include an S.A.S.E. so the board can respond to you once = selections have been made. Bombay Gin accepts electronic submissions at bgin@naropa.edu. Visit our website at www.naropa.edu/bombaygin Submissions also accepted at the Writing and Poetics Department in the Arap= ahoe House or mailed to: Naropa University Bombay Gin Writing and Poetics Department 2130 Arapahoe Avenue Boulder, CO 80302 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 08:37:32 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From the Harriet Blog this a.m. Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're in or you're not. Full roster below the fold. From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html: For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys.=A0 I imagine they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to stir up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? dada-ist? surrealism?=A0 etc), facing the menacing world of "getting published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem.=A0 They've decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the author, the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc.=A0 They've done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be only a ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites and ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the anthology) after = their pebble has sunk to disappearance. My response to them appears here: http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:05:32 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Elizabeth Switaj wrote: >>>I can't help but think that's a bit naive, or else I'm missing the >>>irony. There are poor assholes and rich assholes; there are people who >>>have lost everything who have become more violent and those who have >>>become less violent. No irony here. I have a firm disbelief that ANYTHING will be done to help the poor unless there are millions more made poor. My grandmother used to mention that during the Great Depression everyone who was poor was helping one another, and were used to lending help, sharing food, sharing responsibilities with the kids, the washing. The rich were throwing themselves out windows at the same time because, like my grandmother said and I believe her to be right, the rich knew that without their money their friends were no longer their friends. The poor have always only had one another. This is not naive, this is survival. From my experience I can say that being desperately poor is awful. But I can also say that (something I've already said) it's other poor people who give the most. Call me naive, that's fine, I've been called much worse. But the rich will never lend a hand to the poor unless that hand is MADE to thrust forward. History has shown this, and history shows it winds up being kind to no one in the end, this sort of politics. Call me naive Elizabeth, but poverty itself is created by the most violent people on earth, those with the most money to perpetuate war and genocide. And poverty is a form of war, a form of genocide. Do you realize there have not been this many poor people (entire families!) homeless, living in tents in America since the Great Depression? The BBC has a bus on tour of America right now, leading up to the election, and they have shown parking lots of people living in cars. They've shown the red tents of NICKELVILLE, which the police raided and terrorized most recently. Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW recently interviewed activists trying to help the terrified families of NICKELVILLE who were raided. And NICKELVILLE is being shown so often because of its catchy name more than anything, but there are a lot of places like NICKELVILLE in this country right now. None of this matters at the moment though as the vote went through. The world will breathe a sigh, and go on making shit no one needs to sell to people who need nothing more than they already have while millions and millions will fight and scrap over their place in line at the Salvation Army food table. My mother and I spent some nights at the Salvation Army when I was a kid and it was awful. They make you sing hymns and listen to ridiculous lectures (sermons) about Jesus before you eat. We did it because we were hungry, of course, but when I look back on it I feel it's a terrible thing to keep hungry people hungry until they adhere to your religious doctrine. And I especially remember one Salvation Army in Chicago where we shared space with a Jewish mother and her two little girls, but they sang, we all sang, you had to fucking sing. This isn't naive, this is survival. They got their vote the way they wanted it. The money is for the rich, again. They pilfer and rape our resources and make presidential candidates take their eyes off the war yet again. And I still say that unless EVERYONE is brought to their knees nothing will be done. The poor need enormous numbers before a FDR steps up and does something. And I'm voting for Obama, but when I hear him talk about Welfare Reform (welfare for the poor that is) there seems little help on the way. 700 billion in welfare for the rich seems fine to Washington though. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:12:01 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <20081002.174310.2460.18.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline a lot of pretty average people have 401Ks and IRAs that're in mutual funds it is mostly funds that dabble in mortgage-backed securities as well as in shares in banks a lot of pretty average people own houses or enough land for a doublewide; a lot of people live in cars already (or, in our neighborhood, non-operable campers parked on the street), and a lot of pretty ordinary people are annoyed by people living in cars without feeling that they should assist them, allow them to tap their electricity, or use their water in the debates last night it seems that a certain person on a presidential ticket as veep blamed banks for pushing exotic mortgages; an interesting question is should exotic mortgages be available? should certain financial instruments be available to only people who have the education to understand the risk of junk bonds, derivatives? what risk is? and of course those people should not be bailed out? but the government created that market by keeping the prime rate artificially low. the same government that has now showed us twice that trickle-down doesn't work -- you know, that trickle-down theory the same veep wannabe supported last night. fannie mae was a great New Deal program that allowed more financial institutions to make more loans to lower middle class and working class would-be homeowners (banks previously were mostly loaning to the wealthy or to companies -- so, for example, that whole bit in the jungle about buying a house on time from the builder -- individuals couldn't get loans); freddie mac was a little more dubious, a sort of "seems like a Great Society program, but created under Nixon"; the loans weren't for amounts that would purchase a median-priced home in most markets I'm not really sure what this has to do with poetry; it seems complex enough, but a nice combo of tangible and intangible, politics and personal experience I really like the "equal housing lender" logo /\ |=| (sorta) -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:19:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: New postings................ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline New postings................ to invisible notes deadfall brim III ossuary - Peter Ciccariello ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 01:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have any backstory on this?: =C2=A0 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.= html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 08:45:59 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <177392.13040.qm@web65103.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ultimately, whose poems are these?=A0 Were they authored by these guys?=A0 If so, look how they've gotten published poets to read their work.=A0=20 Being unknown allows one not to worry about who gets pissed off at a person.=A0 And now we're thinking and talking about their poems.=A0 Fairly clever -- times three thousand.=A0=20 Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 4:32 AM Does anyone have any backstory on this?: =A0 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.= html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 06:37:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: From the book of Me, a prophecy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it'll be difficult to steal this election, but the 'pubs have an excellent = track record. During the second term of a McCain/Palin administration, we, = "the great unwashed," will be treated to pyriamid (SPELLING??) size,=A0virt= ual McCains on=A0every Municipal builing. The real, and by then, senile=A0M= cCain, =A0will be miles under pentagon ground watching Bugs Bunny cartoons,= drool creeping down,=A0staining an already soiled white=A0collar, while Sa= rah, busy busy=A0busy, brings about the fulfillment of=A0Biblical prophecy.= REPENT! The TiMe is nEar...=A0=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:45:46 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: David Meltzer & Michael Rothenberg Milwaukee, Chicago and St. Louis In-Reply-To: <02ab01c9257d$3530f370$6401a8c0@LENOVOB39742E2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 DAVID=20 MELTZER & MICHAEL ROTHENBERG READING SCHEDULE =20 MILWAUKEE=2C CHICAGO AND ST. LOUIS =20 MILWAUKEE =20 Saturday=2C October 11=2C 2008=2C 2 pm-- Editor/Agent Panel and Reception=20 at the UWM School of Continuing Education featuring Sheree Bykofsky=2C Mich= ael=20 Rothenberg=2C and Jim Schley. Presented in partnership with the Milwaukee B= ook=20 Festival. Plankinton Bldg=2C 7th Floor=2C 161 W. Wisconsin=20 Ave=2C Milwaukee=2C Milwaukee=20 County. Call=20 414-227-3311. http://www4.uwm.edu/sce/milwaukeebookfestival.cfm=20 =20 Saturday=2C October 11=2C 7pm--David Meltzer and Michael=20 Rothenberg reading at Woodland Pattern Book=20 Center=2C 720 E. Locust Street Milwaukee=2C WI=20 53212=2C phone=20 414.263.5001=2C woodlandpattern.org =20 CHICAGO Sunday=2C=20 October 12=2C 2008=2C 7 o=92clock Michael Rothenberg & David Meltzer readin= g at=20 the Myopic Poetry Reading Series hosted by Larry Sawyer at Myopic Books ((i= n=20 conjunction with the Poetry Center of Chicago)=2C 1564 N. Milwaukee Ave=2C = Chicago=2C IL 60622=2C 773.862.4882 myopic@myopicbookstore.com =20 =20 ST.=20 LOUIS =20 October 20=2C 2008=2C Monday=2C=20 12:15 - 1:15 pm=2C Beat=20 Thing and Unhurried Visions: Encounters with the Beat Generation=2C=20 David Meltzer & Michael Rothenberg Center for the Humanities at UM=2C St. L= ouis Cultural=20 Series=2C 222 J.C.Penney Conference Center=2C St. Louis=2C MO 63101=2C(314)= =20 516-5699 October 20=2C 2008=2C Monday=2C 7: 30 pm=2C River=20 Styx at Duff's Poetry Reading: David Meltzer & Michael=20 Rothenberg River Styx at Duff's=20 Restaurant=2C 392 North Euclid=2C St. Louis=2C MO=20 63108. (314) 361-0522 NOTE: $5 at the door=2C $4 Members=2C Students=20 & Seniors=20 =20 Tuesday=2C=20 October 21=2C 2008=2C 8:00 pm=2C David Meltzer & Michael Rothenberg=20 LU Cultural Center Auditorium Lindenwood University=2C 209 S.=20 Kingshighway=2C St Charles=2C MO 63301=2C (636) 949-2000 =20 =20 DAVID MELTZER A leading poet of the Beat Movement=2C David Meltzer was=20 raised in Brooklyn during the War years=3B performed on radio & early TV on= =20 the Horn & Hardart Children=B9s Hour. Was exiled to L.A. at 16 & at 17=20 enrolled in an ongoing academy w/ artists Wallace Berman=2C George Herms=2C= Robert=20 Alexander=2C Cameron=3B migrated to San Francisco in l957 for higher educat= ion w/=20 peers & maestros like Jack Spicer=2C Robert Duncan=2C Joanne Kyger=2C Diane= =20 DiPrima=2C Michael McClure=2C Lew Welch=2C Philip Whalen=2C Jack Hirschman= =2C a cast of=20 thousands all living extraordinary ordinary lives. Beat Thing [La=20 Alameda Press=2C 2004] won the Josephine Miles PEN Award=2C 2005. Was edito= r and=20 interviewer for San Francisco Beat: Talking With The Poets=20 [City Lights=2C 2001]. With Steve Dickison=2C co-edits Shuffle Boil=2C a ma= gazine=20 devoted to music in all its appearances & disappearances. 2005=20 saw the publication of David=92s Copy: The Selected Poems of David=20 Meltzer by Viking/Penguin=2C a collection spanning over forty years of work= =20 that paints a vivid portrait of Meltzer=92s life as a poet through poems ta= ken=20 from thirty of his previous books of poetry. With a versatile style and=20 playful tone=2C Meltzer offers his unique vision of civilization with a ran= ge of=20 juxtapositions from Jewish mysticism and everyday life to jazz and pop=20 culture.=20 MICHAEL ROTHENBERG=20 Michael Rothenberg is a poet=2C songwriter=2C and=20 editor of Big Bridge magazine online at www.bigbridge.org. His poetry books= include Man/Woman=2C a collaboration with=20 Joanne Kyger=2C The Paris Journals (Fish Drum Press)=2C Monk=20 Daddy (Blue Press)=2C and Unhurried Vision (La=20 Alameda/University of New Mexico Press). He is also author=20 of the novel Punk Rockwell. Rothenberg's 2005 CD collaboration with=20 singer Elya Finn=2C was praised by poet David Meltzer as "fabulous-all [the= ] songs=20 sound like Weimar Lenya & postwar Nico=2C lushly affirmative at the same ti= me=20 being edged w/ cosmic weltschmertz. An immensely tasty production." He is a= lso=20 editor for the Penguin Poet series=2C which includes selected works of Phil= ip=20 Whalen=2C Joanne Kyger=2C David Meltzer and Ed Dorn. He has recently comple= ted the=20 Collected Poems of Philip Whalen for Wesleyan University=20 Press.=20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mathias Svalina Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <976267.54305.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get immediately from self-googlers. I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next book. On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:45 AM, amy king wrote: > Ultimately, whose poems are these? Were they authored by these guys? > If so, look how they've gotten published poets to read their work. > > > > Being unknown allows one not to worry about who gets pissed off at a > person. And now we're thinking and talking about their poems. Fairly > clever -- times three thousand. > > > > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: fake anthology > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 4:32 AM > > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:50:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: fake anthology Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Daniel Zimmerman=20 To: stephen.r.mclaughlin@gmail.com=20 Cc: Daniel Zimmerman ; Daniel Zimmerman=20 Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: arsonism Hi, Stephen. I came across the odd surprise today of finding a poem by me (?) in = arsonism's issue #1: Witchcraft Misses and has Daniel Zimmerman (p. 3593). Nice. I wish I had written it (or perhaps I did--via witchcraft!). I = don't know the Daniel Zimmerman=20 who did write this poem (though I'd like to), but if you plan an issue = #2, you might want to choose from http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_cate= gories&cid=3D44 or http://beardofbees.com/zimmerman.html or http://www.origamicondom.org/IssuesPDFs/OC.03.pdf (pp. 30-31) --poems by (the real, as far as I know) Daniel Zimmeman. (Too bad you didn't include biographies.) I guess you've pissed a lot of poets off by publishing their stuff = without permission. Well, you didn't publish mine without permission (since I didn't write = that one),=20 but you have permission to pick one from the sites above. Your magazine (!) raises interesting questions about copyright. Since it = appears you've used only one piece by each writer, one might regard it as "inspired = use" or a kind of ad campaign for poets that might interest browsers in finding out more = about particular writers. I wouldn't mind, but I know some of the poets you've published, = and they know me; I wouldn't want them to think that I wrote that poem (though I do = like it) if I didn't, nor would I want the other Daniel Zimmerman to hear of me getting credit = for it and thus thinking that I had plagiarized his work. (If everyone had the same = name, this would not present a problem.) Anyhow, good luck with your project. Best, Daniel Zimmerman (this one) also at: http://www.middlesexcc.edu/departments/english/control.cfm =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 10:28:28 -0700 Reply-To: amishius@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amish Trivedi Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <7ff518e40810040934k57d99791ld47940313032f7ef@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I suppose this is the proper response: I'M ONE OF THE TOP 3164 POETS IN AMERICA!!!!! WOOT! :) I'm now curious to find who's NOT on the list.... --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Mathias Svalina wrote: From: Mathias Svalina Subject: Re: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:34 AM This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get immediately from self-googlers. I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next book. On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:45 AM, amy king wrote: > Ultimately, whose poems are these? Were they authored by these guys? > If so, look how they've gotten published poets to read their work. > > > > Being unknown allows one not to worry about who gets pissed off at a > person. And now we're thinking and talking about their poems. Fairly > clever -- times three thousand. > > > > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: fake anthology > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 4:32 AM > > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 13:35:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: fake anthology Comments: To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com In-Reply-To: <177392.13040.qm@web65103.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable guess I can take a day of inspiration off since they wrote a poem for me. the book is mesmerizing till you realize the poems aren't by the poets! (I THOUGHT Rukeyser, Wms & Leonard Cohen sounded awfully contemporary!) then you see what they have in common--similes. of course it's thrilling to be included with rimbaud & yoko. On 10/4/08 4:32 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > =A0 >=20 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.= htm> l >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 13:43:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: fakeish anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 thanks for alerting me to this -- This is the first poem ever published by "Aldon Lynn Nielsen."  I'm hoping he'll write more. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Study the fine art of coming apart." --Jerry W. Ward, Jr. Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <7ff518e40810040934k57d99791ld47940313032f7ef@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The editors of this anthology excluded (the names of) several of my favorite poets, and I must say -- rather sincerely! -- that I am offended on their behalf. -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mathias Svalina Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:34 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: fake anthology This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get immediately from self-googlers. I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next book. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:28:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lewis Warsh Subject: Marinovich & Warsh at The Living Theater Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OCTOBER 14 2008 / Tuesday / 8 PM a reading by Filip Marinovich and Lewis Warsh at THE LIVING THEATER 21 Clinton Street (between Houston & Stanton) New York City Filip Marinovich is a poet, performer, and playwright living in New York City. As a member of the Ugly Duckling Presse Collective he has worked at editing and contributing to 6x6, a poetry periodical, and New York Nights, an anti-war newspaper. From 2002 through 2003 he wrote/directed a trilogy of plays: Skin Around The Earth, Throne Room Snow, and Karma Bookshop. His first book, Zero Readership, was published by Ugly Duckling Presse in 2008. Lewis Warsh is the author of numerous books of poetry, fiction and autobiography, including The Origin of the World, Touch of the Whip, A Free Man, Avenue of Escape and Ted's Favorite Skirt. He is the coeditor of The Angel Hair Anthology, editor and publisher of United Artists Books, and director of the MFA program in creative writing at Long Island University in Brooklyn. A new book, Inseparable: Poems 1995-2005, was published by Granary Books in 2008. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:38:03 -0700 Reply-To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My poem in there is awesome, and has just two similes. --- On Sat, 4/10/08, Ruth Lepson wrote: From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: fake anthology To: b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com, POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 5:35 PM guess I can take a day of inspiration off since they wrote a poem for me. the book is mesmerizing till you realize the poems aren't by the poets! (I THOUGHT Rukeyser, Wms & Leonard Cohen sounded awfully contemporary!) then you see what they have in common--similes. of course it's thrilling to be included with rimbaud & yoko. On 10/4/08 4:32 AM, "Barry Schwabsky" wrote: > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > =C2=A0 >=20 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.= htm> l >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:31:10 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A poem on this sort of attitude toward the rich (who are quite generous, not to mention being the ones who provide jobs for everyone -- look to rick liberal politicians for lack of personal generosity): http://zatavu.blogspot.com/2008/09/on-wealthy.html Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, October 3, 2008 6:05:32 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Elizabeth Switaj wrote: >>>I can't help but think that's a bit naive, or else I'm missing the >>>irony. There are poor assholes and rich assholes; there are people who >>>have lost everything who have become more violent and those who have >>>become less violent. No irony here. I have a firm disbelief that ANYTHING will be done to help the poor unless there are millions more made poor. My grandmother used to mention that during the Great Depression everyone who was poor was helping one another, and were used to lending help, sharing food, sharing responsibilities with the kids, the washing. The rich were throwing themselves out windows at the same time because, like my grandmother said and I believe her to be right, the rich knew that without their money their friends were no longer their friends. The poor have always only had one another. This is not naive, this is survival. From my experience I can say that being desperately poor is awful. But I can also say that (something I've already said) it's other poor people who give the most. Call me naive, that's fine, I've been called much worse. But the rich will never lend a hand to the poor unless that hand is MADE to thrust forward. History has shown this, and history shows it winds up being kind to no one in the end, this sort of politics. Call me naive Elizabeth, but poverty itself is created by the most violent people on earth, those with the most money to perpetuate war and genocide. And poverty is a form of war, a form of genocide. Do you realize there have not been this many poor people (entire families!) homeless, living in tents in America since the Great Depression? The BBC has a bus on tour of America right now, leading up to the election, and they have shown parking lots of people living in cars. They've shown the red tents of NICKELVILLE, which the police raided and terrorized most recently. Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW recently interviewed activists trying to help the terrified families of NICKELVILLE who were raided. And NICKELVILLE is being shown so often because of its catchy name more than anything, but there are a lot of places like NICKELVILLE in this country right now. None of this matters at the moment though as the vote went through. The world will breathe a sigh, and go on making shit no one needs to sell to people who need nothing more than they already have while millions and millions will fight and scrap over their place in line at the Salvation Army food table. My mother and I spent some nights at the Salvation Army when I was a kid and it was awful. They make you sing hymns and listen to ridiculous lectures (sermons) about Jesus before you eat. We did it because we were hungry, of course, but when I look back on it I feel it's a terrible thing to keep hungry people hungry until they adhere to your religious doctrine. And I especially remember one Salvation Army in Chicago where we shared space with a Jewish mother and her two little girls, but they sang, we all sang, you had to fucking sing. This isn't naive, this is survival. They got their vote the way they wanted it. The money is for the rich, again. They pilfer and rape our resources and make presidential candidates take their eyes off the war yet again. And I still say that unless EVERYONE is brought to their knees nothing will be done. The poor need enormous numbers before a FDR steps up and does something. And I'm voting for Obama, but when I hear him talk about Welfare Reform (welfare for the poor that is) there seems little help on the way. 700 billion in welfare for the rich seems fine to Washington though. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:25:11 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am very curious as to the precise algorithms or other methods used in the gathering of these names and the creation of these poems.Twilight appears in the title and body of "my" poem, which is a keyword for me and is in the title of the online journal I run, but the line breaks are weak. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:40:53 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Ruth Lepson" << the book is mesmerizing till you realize the poems aren't by the poets! >> ... and either less or more so if you recognise that the "poems" were produced by a text generation engine, and (presumably arbitraily) assigned to names trawled from the Web. If anyone has a right to complain here, it's Text Generation Machine Mark 119, whose essential contribution to the anthology isn't acknowledged. It's difficult to imagine who will be reading any of the 3000+ pages of randomly-generated twaddle, other than the "authors" to whom any particular stretch of words is arbitrarily assigned. (Add to a child whom not even its mother could love, an anthology that not even the compilers bothered to read.) Did the "editors" even read the list of names compiled by their 'bot, or simply feed them directly into the cover of the work? Enquiring minds want to know ... Well, not really, but it would be *slightly interesting to know which text generation machine was used, and what instructions were given to the 'bots in their search for names. Given the ommissions, I'd guess that the 'bots were scoring below random chance in any search assocaited with the terms "poet" or "poetry". Robin Hamilton ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well CA, I've been brutalized by men who were quite poor, when I was quite poor, so frankly saying that everyone will be wonderfully kind when they are poor runs up against what I have learned about survival. If I took on the belief that poverty made people help each other, I would likely be raped again (real rape, not the metaphorical kind used to score a point in an argument) and probably killed. In my case, the violence was highly gendered, but that's not always so. My father grew up in a New Jersey slum, and he had to be tough not because the rich kids from a few neighborhoods away would hurt him otherwise but because the kids in his own neighborhood would. Please remember that you and your family are not the only ones with the experience of not knowing where your next meal is coming from. Having money certainly magnifies the ability of people do harm, and yes, poverty can be a form of genocide. I never suggested otherwise. Do I "realize there have not been this many poor people (entire families!) homeless, living in tents in America since the Great Depression?" Yes, in fact, I do. How does that invalidate my experience that tells me that the poor do not always help the poor? Incidentally, they're pink tents, and it's called NickelSville after the mayor of Seattle. Frankly, you seem to be implying that my disagreement with your notions of how poor people behave shows that I don't care about how poor people suffer. That's both dishonest, and insulting. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:56:28 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series fall/winter 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} FALL/WINTER 2008 Chicago, IL *October 18: Experiment #23 Ira S. Murfin, Marisa Plumb & Srikanth Reddy *November 1: Experiment #24 Mike Applegate, Marc Falkoff, Peter Sullivan & members of Iraq Veterans Against the War *December 6: Experiment #25 Authors from MoonLit 7pm at the Division Street Dance Loft 735 W. Division, 3rd floor new location in the Work House building Division @ Halsted, enter parking lot off of Halsted Suggested donation $4 doors lock at 7:30pm COMING UP: SPRING 2009 *AWP small press showcase with Action Books, Flood Editions, Futurepoem Books, Les Figues Press, Switchback Books, Ugly Duckling Presse & a few more surprises *Doug Ischar & RM Vaughan *Authors from the Encyclopedia Project, vol. 2 Red Rover Series is curated by curated by Lisa Janssen & Jennifer Karmin. Each event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. The series was founded in 2005 by Amina Cain & Jennifer Karmin. Email ideas for reading experiments to redroverseries@yahoogroups.com The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:20:13 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii & it seems they'll let almost anyone in cuz it's Godot, post history. Damn, I missed out on all of the fun. bitterbitterME. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 18:09:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nic Sebastian Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <7ff518e40810040934k57d99791ld47940313032f7ef@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn't write the lines attributed to me in it=2C but I agree it is amusin= g in many ways. Assume we will get to hear from the author(s) in due time r= e: their motivation. If nothing else=2C this represents a *vast* amount of = time and effort on someone's part -- hope they feel it is worth it. Nic Seb= astianhttp://verylikeawhale.wordpress.com > Date: Sat=2C 4 Oct 2008 11:34:16 -0500> From: mathias.svalina@GMAIL.COM> = Subject: Re: fake anthology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > This is on= e of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't> stop laughing at= this=3B its hilarious in so many ways.> > I wonder if part of the prank wa= s to see how many hits they'd get> immediately from self-googlers.> > I'm p= retty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next book.> > O= n Sat=2C Oct 4=2C 2008 at 10:45 AM=2C amy king wrote= :> > Ultimately=2C whose poems are these? Were they authored by these guys?= > > If so=2C look how they've gotten published poets to read their work.> >= > >> >> > Being unknown allows one not to worry about who gets pissed off a= t a> > person. And now we're thinking and talking about their poems. Fairly= > > clever -- times three thousand.> >> >> >> >> > Amy> >> > _______> >> >>= >> >> >> > Recent work> >> > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King= .html> >> >> >> > Amy's Alias> >> > http://amyking.org/> >> > --- On Sat=2C= 10/4/08=2C Barry Schwabsky wrote:> > From: B= arry Schwabsky > > Subject: fake anthology> > = To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Date: Saturday=2C October 4=2C 2008=2C = 4:32 AM> >> > Does anyone have any backstory on this?:> >> > http://poetryf= oundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html> >> >> >>= >> >> >> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is moderated= & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc= .buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The = Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & s= ub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 06:32:29 +0800 Reply-To: jpjones@ihug.com.au Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "jpjones@ihug.com.au" Subject: Re: fake anthology Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hmm, look a little closely and you'll see that it's not just a collation of USAmerican names, nor even just poets. 'Jill Jones' is quite happy with her/my poem - and she/I hope/s any other '= Jill Jones' may be as well. The parrots are laughing at me outside my window this chilly spring morning= . I'm laughing at myself after having had a stupid dream about anthologies last n= ight - true and, hey, spoo-oo-ky. "What are we to make of this corn ..." indeed! Cheers, Jill ________________________ Jill Jones www.jilljones.com.au On Sun Oct 5 3:28 , Amish Trivedi sent: >I suppose this is the proper response: > >I'M ONE OF THE TOP 3164 POETS IN AMERICA!!!!! > >WOOT! > >:) > >I'm now curious to find who's NOT on the list.... > >--- On Sat, 10/4/08, Mathias Svalina mathias.svalina@GMAIL.COM> wrote: >From: Mathias Svalina mathias.svalina@GMAIL.COM> >Subject: Re: fake anthology >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:34 AM > >This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't >stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. > >I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get >immediately from self-googlers. > >I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next >book. > >On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:45 AM, amy king amyhappens@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Ultimately, whose poems are these? Were they authored by these guys? >> If so, look how they've gotten published poets to read their work. >> >> >> >> Being unknown allows one not to worry about who gets pissed off at a >> person. And now we're thinking and talking about their poems. Fairly >> clever -- times three thousand. >> >> >> >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Barry Schwabsky b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> >wrote: >> From: Barry Schwabsky b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM> >> Subject: fake anthology >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 4:32 AM >> >> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >> >> >http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho= .html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideline= s & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 23:42:00 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't get this. Why should anyone spend so much time and effort 'p...ing off the poetry community'? What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is that? If the intention had been to amuse the poetic community I might have given it some credence but I object to its intention and I couldn't give a fig if I'm mentioned or not - I'm certainly not ploughing through that list to find out. I'd lose my will to live and I don't need silly endorsements of this kind. I also find it strange that 'whoever' seems to think the 'poetic community' is of one mind. I think the posting to this list have shown that poets are very diverse in their reactions. My reaction? I find it rather depressing that in these troubled times (aren't times always troubled) there are far more deserving people to p.off. I think 'whoever' did it should be updated on the world situation and then maybe they could consider getting a life. Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mathias Svalina" To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:34 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology > This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't > stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. > > I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get > immediately from self-googlers. > > I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next > book. > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:18:09 +0300 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eir=?UTF-8?B?w60=?=kur =?UTF-8?B?w5Y=?=rn Nor=?UTF-8?B?w7A=?=dahl Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <316187.58764.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Some of those poets aren't american at all - Gunnar Ekel=C3=B6f, Leevi Lehto, Kari Kokko, and others. That makes you one of the top 3164 poets in the world! On 10/4/08 8:28 PM, "Amish Trivedi" wrote: > I suppose this is the proper response: >=20 > I'M ONE OF THE TOP 3164 POETS IN AMERICA!!!!! >=20 > WOOT! >=20 > :) >=20 > I'm now curious to find who's NOT on the list.... >=20 > --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Mathias Svalina wrote: > From: Mathias Svalina > Subject: Re: fake anthology > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 11:34 AM >=20 > This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't > stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. >=20 > I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get > immediately from self-googlers. >=20 > I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next > book. >=20 > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:45 AM, amy king wrote: >> Ultimately, whose poems are these? Were they authored by these guys? >> If so, look how they've gotten published poets to read their work. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Being unknown allows one not to worry about who gets pissed off at a >> person. And now we're thinking and talking about their poems. Fairly >> clever -- times three thousand. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Amy >>=20 >> _______ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Recent work >>=20 >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Amy's Alias >>=20 >> http://amyking.org/ >>=20 >> --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Barry Schwabsky > wrote: >> From: Barry Schwabsky >> Subject: fake anthology >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 4:32 AM >>=20 >> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >>=20 >>=20 >=20 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.= htm> l >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --=20 www.norddahl.org Eir=C3=ADkur =C3=96rn Nor=C3=B0dahl Fleminginkatu 9A 10 00530 Helsinki Finland =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:29:17 -0700 Reply-To: amishius@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amish Trivedi Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <001001c92672$801692a0$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Geraldine, You're just jealous no one googled your name. Or maybe they did and I didn't see it because I only looked up my name, read the poem I wrote and then closed it. What's the point in being made of fun as being shallow if I can't be shallow once in a while! amish --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Geraldine Monk wrote: From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 5:42 PM I don't get this. Why should anyone spend so much time and effort 'p...ing off the poetry community'? What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is that? If the intention had been to amuse the poetic community I might have given it some credence but I object to its intention and I couldn't give a fig if I'm mentioned or not - I'm certainly not ploughing through that list to find out. I'd lose my will to live and I don't need silly endorsements of this kind. I also find it strange that 'whoever' seems to think the 'poetic community' is of one mind. I think the posting to this list have shown that poets are very diverse in their reactions. My reaction? I find it rather depressing that in these troubled times (aren't times always troubled) there are far more deserving people to p.off. I think 'whoever' did it should be updated on the world situation and then maybe they could consider getting a life. Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mathias Svalina" To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:34 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology > This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't > stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. > > I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get > immediately from self-googlers. > > I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next > book. > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: amishius@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amish Trivedi Subject: Re: fake anthology Comments: To: John Cleary In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Certainly solves problems related to THE CANON --- On Sat, 10/4/08, John Cleary wrote: From: John Cleary Subject: Re: fake anthology To: amishius@yahoo.com Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 6:48 PM I'm glad I'm not the only one who is pleased to be included in any antholog= y, even a fake one with a poem I didn't write. John On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Amish Trivedi wrote: Dear Geraldine, You're just jealous no one googled your name. Or maybe they did and I didn'= t see it because I only looked up my name, read the poem I wrote and then c= losed it. What's the point in being made of fun as being shallow if I can't be shallo= w once in a while! amish --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Geraldine Monk wrote: From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 5:42 PM I don't get this. Why should anyone spend so much time and effort 'p...ing off the poetry community'? =A0What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is that? If the intention had been to amuse the poetic community I might have given it some credence but I object to its intention and I couldn't give a fig if I'm mentioned or not - I'm certainly not ploughing through that list to find out. =A0I'd lose my will to live and I don't need silly endorsements of this kind. I also find it strange that 'whoever' seems to think the 'poetic community' is of one mind. =A0I think the posting to this list have shown that poets a= re very diverse in their reactions. =A0My reaction? =A0I find it rather depres= sing that in these troubled times (aren't times always troubled) there are far more deserving people to p.off. =A0I think 'whoever' did it should be updated on the world situation and then maybe they could consider getting a life. Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mathias Svalina" To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:34 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology > This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't > stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. > > I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get > immediately from self-googlers. > > I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my next > book. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 00:54:49 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dear Geraldine, > > You're just jealous no one googled your name. .... > amish That's the odd thing -- whatever method of selection was used, it doesn't seem to have been a very useful or effective one, and it looks as if the names weren't taken directly from google -- it's almost easier to note the omitted names you'd expect from a straight trawl of high or even low profile sites or whatever than to work out why anyone *is there. Perhaps the problem is that not *enough work was put into it, beyond linking a text generation program to a search mechanism, and pouring the results straight into a preformatted pdf file. A couple of evenings work for a relatively competent programmer, finally. Irritation on the cheap. Robin Hamilton ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 01:46:57 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: fakeish anthology In-Reply-To: <1223142189l.1118438l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well -- thank you for your generally positive response (or at least not aggressively negative, like some recent posts on the Poetry Foundation's Harriet blog). For my part, I'm getting a good laugh out of this whole thing. Just changed all my passwords to be on the safe side. All the best -- -steve On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:43 PM, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > thanks for alerting me to this -- This is the first poem ever published by > "Aldon Lynn Nielsen." I'm hoping he'll write more. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "Study the fine art of coming apart." > > --Jerry W. Ward, Jr. > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. 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"Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cleary Subject: Re: fake anthology Comments: To: amishius@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <891220.9976.qm@web53708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm glad I'm not the only one who is pleased to be included in *any *anthology, even a fake one with a poem I didn't write. John On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Amish Trivedi wrote: > Dear Geraldine, > > You're just jealous no one googled your name. Or maybe they did and I > didn't see it because I only looked up my name, read the poem I wrote and > then closed it. > > What's the point in being made of fun as being shallow if I can't be > shallow once in a while! > > amish > > --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Geraldine Monk wrote: > From: Geraldine Monk > Subject: Re: fake anthology > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 5:42 PM > > I don't get this. Why should anyone spend so much time and effort > 'p...ing > off the poetry community'? What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is > that? > If the intention had been to amuse the poetic community I might have given > it some credence but I object to its intention and I couldn't give a fig if > I'm mentioned or not - I'm certainly not ploughing through that list to > find > out. I'd lose my will to live and I don't need silly endorsements of > this > kind. > > I also find it strange that 'whoever' seems to think the 'poetic > community' > is of one mind. I think the posting to this list have shown that poets are > very diverse in their reactions. My reaction? I find it rather depressing > that in these troubled times (aren't times always troubled) there are far > more deserving people to p.off. I think 'whoever' did it should be > updated > on the world situation and then maybe they could consider getting a life. > > Geraldine > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mathias Svalina" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:34 PM > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > > > This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't > > stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. > > > > I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get > > immediately from self-googlers. > > > > I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my > next > > book. > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:04:51 EDT Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthology aside, what a search engine optimization technique this is for a blog. For Godot and its editors have gone viral overnight. The whole thing is wonderful fun, exactly what poetry needs once in a while, some playful ribbing. I'm even getting used to "my" poem (a little). Larissa Shmailo (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) "The poet, like the lover, is a menace on the assembly line." -Rollo May Listen to Exorcism on iTunes or at: _http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2_ (http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2) _http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism_ (http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism) **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Issue 1 Release Announcement In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-687106505-1223166327=:22594" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-687106505-1223166327=:22594 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE This is totally brilliant & probably the best new media poetry or net=20 poetry whatever however defined I've seen. quantity translates into mass &= =20 sense maybe missed mess - godot might as well be what I was waiting for w/= =20 what seemed a v. long download. I wonder if Kenny G. had something to do=20 with this since I think he's one of the most amazing wryters around and=20 his use of mass/tifying aesthetics produce both some of the greatest=20 readable & nonreadable books I've seen edging simultaneously on=20 conceptualism || to Acconci back then on one hand & the only conceivable=20 wryting _in a sense_ given protocol code machine eu-gene list & LISP -=20 in a sense some of the sum of the wrythers & .echo more - Alan On Sat, 4 Oct 2008, Steve McLaughlin wrote: > Announcing the release of Issue 1, edited by Stephen McLaughlin and Jim Carpenter. Now available here as a 3,785-page PDF. Again, that url is < http://arsonism.org/issue1/Issue-1_Fall-2008.pdf>. This issue features new poems by Nada Gordon, Evelyn Reilly, Julianna Mundim, Emmy Catedral, Enid Bagnold, Richard Siken, Stephen Ratcliffe, Michael Gottlieb, Jodie Childers, Norman J. Olson, Brent Hendricks, Sean Kilpatrick, Tom McCarthy, Stacy Doris, Michael Rerick, Corrinne Clegg Hales= , Mark Decarteret, Hadewijch of Antwerp, Darren Wershler-Henry, Letitia Trent= , Debra Di Blasi, Laura Elrick, Bruna Mori, Popahna Brandes, Robert Sheppard, Diana Magallan, Kristine Danielson, Ed Higgins, Drew Gardner, Kyle Kaufman, Matthew Thorburn, Tiel Aisha Ansari, Christopher Wells, Vanessa Place, Simo= n Pettet, Grace Vajda, John Bennett, Ian Patterson, Joseph Hutchison, John Cotter, Cheryl Lawson Walker, Scott Esposito, Jason Nelson, Daniel Kane, Kimo Armitage, Alan May, J.D. Nelson, Bob Hershon, Jennifer Karmin, Kim Rosenfield, Nathan Austin, Pearl Pirie, Rosmarie Waldrop, Tara Betts, Donal= d Revell, Jim Ryals, Danuta Kean, Jeff VanderMeer, Alfredo Bonanno, Irene Latham, Michael Hennesy, Dick Higgins, John Hanson, Billy Merrell, Sam Ladkin, Jeff Ward, Debra Jenks, K. Lorraine Graham, Kenji Okuhira, Sean MacInnes, Adam Seelig, Steve Halle, David Mus, Monique Wittig, Joyelle McSweeney, Daniel E. Levenson, Luke Daly, Henry Thoreau, John Palattella, Abby Trenaman, Kristen Taylor, Vassily Kamensky, David Jhave Johnston, Gene Tanta, Cate Marvin, Alison Roth, Shad Marsh, Asher Ghaffar, Henry Gould, Justin Theroux, Susan Grimm, Bernard Wilson, Ateet Tuli, Laura Moriarty, Mark McMorris, Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle, Jeffrey Cyphers Wright, William Shakespeare, Nick Trinen, Daphne Gottlieb, Magdalena Zurawski, A.K. Arkadin= , Matthue Roth, Douglas J. Belcher, After Bitahatini, Neil Schmitz, Liz Henry= , Tom Hansen, Craig Saper, Pris Campbell, Afua-Kafi Akua, Amish Trivedi, Chri= s Hutchinson, Cath Vidler, Sarah Weinman, A.E. Stallings, Robin Blaser, Rolan= d Prevost, Mac Wellman, Steven Schroeder, Joy Garnett, Mark Lamoureux, Julie Clark, Bob Garlitz, Jeff Hamilton, Kara Dorris, Maureen Thorson, Irv Muchnick, Frank O'Hara, Robin Magowan, C. Allen Rearick, A. J. Patrick Liszkiewicz, Tony Leuzzi, Bhanu Kapil, Sage U`ilani Takehiro, Shellie Zacharia, Lorna Dee Cervantes, Camille Martin, Eliot Weinberger, David Nemeth, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Iris Smyles, Bertolt Brecht, David Forbes, Colin Herd, Sergio Bessa, Zach Wollard, Adam Ford, Claudia Keelan, Hank Sotto, Jamba Dunn, Ken Mikolowski, Jean-Jacques Poucel, Santiago B. Villafania, David Valentinovia, Robert Kaufman, Dominique Meens, Joe Elliot= , August Stramm, Justin Katko! Sandra Korchenko, Carol Peters, Lilah Hegnauer= , Brian Evenson, Wallace Stevens, Timothy Murphy, Joseph Bradshaw, Nick Courtright, Adam Chiles, James, Kane X. Faucher, David Abel, Ray Succre, Gabriel Gudding, Antonin Artaud, Mark Cunningham, Paul Fattaruso, William Saroyan, Aaron McCollough, Confucius/Ezra Pound, David Antin, Rob Mackenzie= , Ryan Eckes, Christian Peet, Peter Riley, Litsa Spathi, Anna Ahkmatova, Mark Tursi, J.D. Schraffenberger, Greg Fuchs, Sean Casey, Orpingalik, Hassan Melehy, Rosemarie Waldrop, Phillip Lund, Adam Aitken, Michael Davidson, Andrea Rexilius, William Allegrezza, Raymond Queneau, Fred Wah, Marcia Arrieta, Elizabeth Cross, Jonathan Greene, Gregory Laynor, Preston Spurlock= , Jane Sprague, Kevin Thurston, Stephen Berry, William Bronk, Claudia Rankine= , Steve Dalachinsky, Ed Sanders, Sam Rasnake, Wes Smiderle, James Belflower, Simmons B. Buntin, Dolores Dorantes, Emilie Clark, Leslie Marmon Silko, Sarah O'Brien, Jack Tricarico, Gerard Van der Luen, Frances Richard, Charli= e Bertsch, Bob Cobbing, Sabrina Calle, Steven Burt, Stephane Mallarme, Bob Marcacci, Edwin Torres, Lois Marie Harrod, Evgeny Maizel, Luc Simonic, Lawrence Durrell, Amanda Davidson, Pendergast, Gregory Orr, Lepson, Joseph Duemer, Eric Alterman, Erin M. Bertram, Leopold Sedar Senghor, Suzanne Buffam, Andy Nicholson, Edward Champion, Katy Acheson, Okey Ndibe, Jennifer Mulligan, Renee Zepeda, Alfred Kubin, Sawako Nakayasu, David Prater, Forres= t Gander, Mike Gubser, Virginia Heatter, Leslie Winer, Ed Schenk, Doug Holder= , Russell Ragsdale, Jose Manuel Velazquez, Dick Jones, Gerry Loose, Daniel J. Vaccaro, Rafael Alberti, Jeff Newberry, Igor Terentiev, Micah Robbins, Friedrich Holderlin, Arif Khan, Laurel Dodge, Ann White, Nicolas Guillen, John Lowther, Cathleen Miller, Josef Vachal, Chris Moran, Miyazawa Kenji, Robert Fitterman, Norman Mailer, Doris Shapiro, Talan Menmott, Alan Licht, John Godfrey, James Maughn, Anne Heide, Jasmine Dreame Wagner, Lina ramona Vitkauskas, Judith Goldman, Rich Murphy, Halvard Johnson, Ariel Dorfman, Ed Baker, Maryrose Larkin, Sheila E. Murphy, Rosanna Warren, Jean Cocteau, Clarence Major, Eleanor Stanford, Teresa Carmody, Kenward Elmslie, Rainer Maria Rilke, Ryan Walker, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Nava Fader, Rob Budde, Allison Cobb, Robert Roley, Alison Collins, Melissa Fondakowski, Nathan Whiting, Jess Rowan, Cid Corman, Bob Heman, Libby Rosof, Cassie Lewis, Scot= t Saner, Roberta Allen, Raymond Farr, Anne Pierson Wiese, kevin mcpherson eckhoff, Troy Lloyd, Lindsay Boldt, Andrea Baker, Meredith Quartermain, Richard Meier, Louise Mathias, Joseph Cooper, Lynn Strongin, Outlines, Suzanne Stein, Richard de Nooy, Sherry, Robert Chrysler, Ton van't Hof, Peter Cole, Michael Slosek, June Jordan, Andrew Zitka, Eve Babitz, G.C. Waldrep, Craig Santos Perez, James Sherry, Hugh, David R. Slavitt, Dino Campana, Stephen Berer, Alastair Johnston, Angela Jaeger, Javier Huerta, Je= d Birmingham, David Harrison Horton, Alan Baker, Steve Clay, Kevin Coval, Ton= y Brown, Debesh Goswami, Michael Farrell, Abigail Child, Tanya Larkin, Ron Slate, Emmanuel Hocquard, Lauren Dixon, Jan Zwicky, Andrew Joron, Jessica Wickens, Arthur Sze, David Baptiste Chirot, Steven May, Rob Cook, Ankur Saha, Eric Unger, Chris Heilman, James Purdy, Derek Henderson, James Collins, L.J. Moore, Michael McClure, D.S. Marriott, Michael Heller, Robert Mittenthal, Eileen Tabios, Aki Salmela, Lou Rowan, Jerome Seaton, Lori Lubeski, Paul Hardacre, Rus Bowden, John Wieners, Lauren Levin, Johanna Drucker, Velimir Khlebnikov, Terry Bisson, Martha Plimpton, Miklos Radnoti, Ken Kesey, Matvei Yankelevich, Seth Forrest, Maria Damon, David MacDuff, Kevin Doran, Rob Read, Kristen Gallagher, Rick Visser, Andrei Bely, Sara Crangle, Karl Klingbiel, Jackson Mac Low, Fox, Derik Badman, Paul Griffiths= , Oliver Rohe, Mark L. Lilleleht, Michelle Bautista, Monica Schley, Aaron Levy, andrew nightingale, Douglas Messerli, Pattie McCarthy, David West, Jo= n McKenzie, James Weber, Carlos Rojas, Donatella Izzo, Francois Luong, Daniel Borzutzky, Umm Zaid, Tony D'Arpino, James Tierney, Tao Lin, Rochelle Owens, Amy Friedman, Natalie Zina Walschots, Kayin Wong, Emily Sher, Deborah R. Geis, Kristen Iskandrian, Brother Tom Murphy, Jeremy Gardner, Alcoholic Poet, Chris Mansel, Keith Tuma, Chris Mansell, Rob MacDonald, Yuan Mei, Stanislaw Witkiewicz, Joshua Schuster, Glenn Bach, Maureen Owen, Richard Wink, Guy Bennett, Eric Elshtain, Reza Shirazi, Tonya Foster, Karl Kempton, Allan Gurganus, Alizon Brunning, Christopher Davis, Richard Foreman, Francois Luong, Yvonne Werkman, rob mclennan, Mark McCarthy, Bill Marsh, To= m Devaney, John Most, Nick Moudry, Jennifer Reimer, Charles Baudelaire, Gabriel Pomerand, Crane Giamo, Vernon Frazer, Mike Basinski, Oliver de la Paz, Leon Damas, Mark Ducharme, Jim Leftwich, Eliot Katz, Pat Lawrence, Jef= f Daily, Jefferson Navicky, Tom Savage, Legs McNeil, mIEKAL aND, Leevi Lehto, Allyson Clay, Cy Mathews, Dereck Clemons, Clayton Eshleman, Benjamin Parzybok, Kevin Isu, Laura Mullen, Angelo Suarez, Kate Greenstreet, Andrew Burke, Natalie Simpson, Susan Smith Nash, Peter Gizzi, Dana Goodyear, Terence Winch, Sandy McIntosh, Cris Mazza, James Thurber, Sarah O=E2=80=9A= =C3=84=C3=B4Brien, Firoze Shakir, Elizabeth Castagna, D.J. Huppatz, David Koehn, Kyra Saari, Philip Jenks, Martin Corless-Smith, Jacques Leslie, Will Gallien, Mathew Timmons, Eric Lochridge, Buck Downs, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Leonard Michaels, Francis Raven, seflo, Nina Shope, Carson Cistulli, Jennifer Banks, Deborah Burnham, Steve Langan, Rosalva Garcia Coral, Betty Stork, Erica Van Horn, Anna Evans, Lizzie Skurnick, Skip Fox, Olde Quietude, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Jonathan Williams, Sarah Maclay, Pablo Neruda, Richard Tuttle, Fran Herndon, Cheryl Clark, Allen Itz, Derek White, Barry MacSweeney, Eben Eldridge, Sandra Ridley, Normie Salvador, Priscilla Long, Alan Gilbert, Dennis Tedlock, Steve Benson, Brian Whitener, Rene Char, Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite, Teresa Ballard, Barbara Henning, Mario Melendez, Jacques Demarcq, Harvey Bialy, Gary Norris, Kerry Shawn Keys, Dawn Pendergast, Aime= e Parkison, Michael Cooper, Chris Killen, Les Webb, Roberta Fallon, John Fillwalk, Stephen McLaughlin, Elizabeth Robinson, Bob Heffernan, Zak Smith, Nicholas Lea, Tsering Wangmo Dhompa, Dan Beachy-Quick, Ross White, Stan Mir= , Tim Atkins, Poppy Z. Brite, Dylan Hock, Kurt Vonnegut, Mez Breeze, Stephani= e Heit, J. Mason, Colleen Lookingbill, John Hall, Michelle Morgan, Alexi Parshchikov, Clemente Padin, Lisa Jarnot, Lance & Andrea Olsen, Mark Wallace, Nancy Kuhl, Xu Smith, Jorge de Lima, Hillary Lyon, Clayton Couch, Gunnar Ekelof, Alex Caldiero, Clifford Burke, Karri Kokko, Brent Goodman, Daniel Clowes, Todd Suomela, Arlene Ang, David McDuff, Bill Sherman, Ezra Mark, Kathryn Pringle, Jem Cohen, Adam Tobin, Thomas Meyer, Clifford Duffy, Anne Waldman, Nancy Shaw, Pilar Olabarria, Chris Maher, Ezra Pound, David Hilmer Rex, Levari, Jerome Sala, Ryan Collins, Alexander Jorgensen, Shouva Chattopadhyay, Linda Susan Jackson, Jonathan Mayhew, Pejk Malinovski, Michael Parker, Claude Simon, Ian Keenan, Peter O'Brien, Jeannie Hoag, Marcel Janko, Beverly Jackson, Loren Webster, Daniel Knudsen, Michael P. Steven, Rose Kelleher, Mare Mikolum, Marcel Broodthaers, Reb Livingston, Steven Lohse, Faye Smailes, Thomas Kinsella, Peter Middleton, Kurt Schwitters, Lou Suarez, Jay Millar, Paul Holman, Michael Palmer, Larry Eigner, Jean-Michel Espitallier, Charles Bernstein, Bill Allegrezza, Tenney Nathanson, Jeff Crouch, Brian Spears, Peter Makin, Lynn Crosbie, Michael Carr, Robinson Jeffers, Fanny Howe, David Vincenti, Erica Wessmann, Lydia Davis, Craig Teicher, Jorge Luiz Antonio, Matt Christie, Jean-Patrice Courtois, Gregory Pardlo, Nathaniel Tarn, Simone Fattal, Orhan Pamuk, Ofeli= a Hunt, Louise Gluck, David Pavelich, Lanny Quarles, George Seferis, Louise Bogan, Susan Minot, Star Black, Ted Stimpfle, Michael Lally, Sean Whelan, Arlo Quint, Grace Molisa, Jasmine Dream Wagner, Armand Schwerner, Anselm Parlatore, Tom Orange, Frank Kuenstler, Robin Coste Lewis, MacLaren Ross, Nick, Katey Nicosia, Geraldine Connolly, Sharanya Manivannan, Maud Newton, Kerri French, Charles Shere, Stephen Burt, Tony Fitzpatrick, Mark Peters, A= =2E R. Ammons, Jenny Davidson, Tom Hopkins, Laurie Price, Woody Haut, Jim Toweill, Anne Tardos, Ronald Johnson, Will Skinker, Linda Marie Walker, Dav= e Schiralli, Rachel Talentino, Christopher McVey, Jordan Davis, Chris Tonelli= , Patrick Culliton, Michael Basinski, Christina Brown, Kathleen Rooney & Elis= a Gabbert, Maria Benet, Regis Bonvicino, Richard Huelsenbeck, Julia Cohen, Ji= m Behrle, Stephanie Bolster, Timothy Liu, Donna Brook, Kristin Abraham, Marcu= s Bales, Patricia Wellingham Jones, Susie Timmons, Clayton A. Couch, Myung Mi Kim, John Litzenberg, Zoe Strauss, Jonathan Meakin, Janine Pommy Vega, John Matthew, Robert Sund, Janne Nummela, Robert Archambeau, Dodie Bellamy, Meghan Scott, Stephen Johnson, Brenda Schmidt, Lisa Flaherty, Martine Bellen, Ron Loewinsohn, Darryl Keola Cabacungan, Chris Ransick, Sean T. Hanratty, Tim Gaze, Kathleen Rooney, Tom Mandel, AnnMarie Eldon, Tom Peters= , Billy Jones, Gilbert Adair, Jim =C2=AC=E2=80=A0Behrle, Peter Jay Shippy, Am= anda Laughtland, Juliet Cook, Joshua Marie Wilkinson, Brian Smith, Aldo Palazzeschi, Richard Denner, Anthony Robinson, Chris Tysh, Christopher Stackhouse, Paul Muldoon, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Ellen Orleans, Robin Reagler, Susan Maxwell, Delia Mellis, John Baker, Jack Boettcher, Lex Camena, Jeffery Bahr, Veronica Montes, Miriam Nichols, Phil Hall, Tyler Carter, Jessica Treat, Mairead Byrne, C.S. Carrier, C.L. Bledsoe, Barbara Maloutas, Peter Schjeldahl, Marc Andre Robinson, Morgan Lucas Schultdt, Sea= n Thomas Dougherty, Rebecca Hazelton, Ryan Bird, Ernst Meister, Edith Sodergran, Bronwen Tate, Joritz-Nakagawa, Sharon Mollerus, Talan Memmott, Robert Burns, Jim Dunn, Matthew Cheney, Edward Nudelman, Subhro Bandopadhyay, Tiff Dressen, Sandy Florian, Jesse Glass, Jennie Skerl, Phil Fried, Eric Gurney, Christof Scheele, Nicholas Rombes, Billy Collins, Eugenio Montale, Gautam Verma, Tyler Cobb, Kendra Malone, Tom Beckett, Vivian Vavassis, Jude MacDonald, Joanna Sondheim, Paul Naylor, Kazim Ali, Josh Corey, Patrick Donnelly and Stephen Miller, Ari Bania, Geoffrey G. O'Brien, Leonard Kress, Philippe Soupault, Steve Caratzas, Joseph Mains, William Yazbec, Standard Schaefer, Betsy Andrews, Carlo Carra, Marie Hopkins, Anna Maria Hong, Burt Kimmelman, Karen J. Weyant, Max Middle, Joan Retallack, Gil Ott, Dennis Cooper, David Matlin, Tino Gomez, B.J. Love, Helen White, John Crowley, Weldon Kees, Louis Zukofsky, David Trinidad, Andrew Peterson, Bill Seaman and Penny Florence, Heather O'Neill, Reginald Shepherd, Annie Guthrie, Ammiel Alcalay, Carton Tragedy, Alfred Corn, Barbara Smith, Jozef Imrich, Yagi Mikajo, Stephen Thomson, Mark Rudman, Jen= a Osman, Ernesto Priego, Ken Springtail, Sam Beckbessinger, Cecilia Vicuna, Behm-Steinberg, Kate Schapira, Deidre Elizabeth, Jean Lehrman, Seth Landman= , Ana Bozicevic-Bowling, Jess Mynes, Will Yackulic, Caroline Wilkinson, Maria Sabina, eldon, Richard Lighthouse, Michael Smoler, Henry Hills, Mark Marino= , Poton, Thomas O'Connell, David Henderson, Michael Cross, Maralyn Lois Polak= , Joe Brennan, Alice Cary, Erica Kaufman, Lewis Warsh, Steve Evans, David Byrne, Frank Parker, Kaz Maslanka, Jenna Cardinale, Peter Straub, EK Smith, Megan Martin, Meghan Punschke, Sherry Chandler, E. Tracy Grinnell, Tom Muir= , Jeff Davis, F. Daniel Rzicznek, Diana Magallon and Jeff Crouch, Kyle Schlesinger, Stuart Dybek, Marco Giovenale, Zach Savich, Tom Wegrzynowski, Arnie Hoffman, Rikki Ducornet, Dawn, Thomas Fink,, Christian Jensen, Andrew Philip, Dave Pollard, Miriam Burstein, Jessica Bozek, Patrick So, Joe Massey, Carmine Starnino, Evan Kennedy, Chris Vitiello, Nick Bruno, Amy Newman, Sharon Gilbert, Aaron Tieger, William Wordsworth, Eugenio Tisselli, julia doughty, Marko Niemi, Pierre Reverdy, Lytton Smith, Lee Gurga, Jed Shahar, Tim Hunt, Lee Upton, Mark Scroggins, Rachel Smith, Robert Wodzinski= , Matthew Blake, Matina Stamatakis, Robert Waxman, Jack McGuane, Bethany Ides= , Alfred Arteaga, Kat Meads, Sandra Gilbert, Carlo Parcelli, Jeff Calhoun, John Bryant, Jasper Bernes, Jeffrey Joe Nelson, Joan Houlihan, Lynn Behrendt, Jack Kerouac, Brenda Iijima, James Koller, Sun Yung Shin, Ixta Menchaca, John Barton, Piero Heliczer, Todd Colby, Awotunde Aworinde, Emma Barnes, Allison Whittenberg, Jenni Russell, Rowan Wilken, Daniela Olszewska= , Layne Russell, George Oppen, Ben Yarmolinsky, Phil Cordelli, Andrew Kozma, Harry Wilkens, Jonathan Lethem, Richard Gorecki, Jilly Dybka, Kirthi Nath, Jennifer Bredl, Paolo Buzzi, Aime Cesaire & Rene Depestre, Ruben Dario, Rachel Loden, William Bryant, hassen, Kerryn Goldsworthy, Jessamyn West, Salvador Dali, Greg Djanikian, George M Wallace, Sharon Brogan, Roger Farr, Lesley Yalen, Jessica Tillyer, Cathy Eisenhower, Noah Falck, Beka Goedde, Patrick Lovelace, Erik Anderson, Shahar Gold, Olivier Cadiot, Peter O'Leary= , Mel Nichols, Juan Felipe Herrera, Mirabai, Rob Mackenzie, Bethany Wright, Joseph Mosconi, MTC Cronin, Terrance Hayes, Bryson Newhart, Yoko Ono, Gherardo Bortolotti, Olli Sinivaara, Jim Crace, Brendan Lorber, Tracie Morris, Jeffrey Side, Brent Cunningham, Henry Miller, Christina McPhee, Mik= e Nicoloff, Ray Federman, Valerie Coulton, HL Hazuka, Ari Banias, Thomas Hummel, Nicolette Bond, J.F. Quackenbush, Julia Stein, Bill Borneman, Jon Link, Steve Dickison, Scott Helmes, Brion Gysin, Sean Burke, Laynie Brown, Hermit-Sage Tradition, Jane Dark, Scott Withiam, Lance Phillips, Michael Ford, John Olson, John Bailey, Rebecca Morgan Frank, Derek Motion, Ashby Tyler, Sarah Campbell, Andrea Strudensky, Roger Gilbert-Lecomte, Mathias Svalina, Ishle Yi Park, Dubravka Djuri=C6=92=C3=A1, John McHale, Grant-Lee = Phillips, Jeremy Czerw, Richard Newman, Diana Slampyak, David McFadden, Jim McGrath, Gregory Crosby, tyler funk, Kristi Maxwell, Vladimir Zykov, Daniel Brenner, Don Mee Choi, Ted Greenwald, Meena Alexander, Sarah Mangold, Steve McCaffery, Jill Magi, Glen Bach, Hank Lazer, Stephen Brockwell, Helen Adam, Sasha Steensen, Ryan Alexander MacDonald, Vladimir Mayakovsky, Jack Morgan, Jr., Radu Dima, Larissa Szporluk, Teresia Teaiwa, Amiri Baraka, Monica Mody= , Vincent Katz, Jen Benka, Roberto Harrison, Edward Byrne, Patrick Rosal, Cheryl Townsend, Carol Novack, Clive Thompson, Mary Biddinger, Erica Lewis, Michael Robins, Mira Schor, Severo Sarduy, John Taggart, Lauren Krueger, Wanda O=E2=80=9A=C3=84=C3=B4Connor, Peter Van Toorn, Kevin Varrone, Mark Ax= elrod, Erica Svec, Erik Donald France, Daniel Green, Marilyn Hacker, Ben Wilkinson, Stephanie Young, David Hall, Joe Moffet, Ric Royer, Basil Bunting, Peter Everwine, Terryanne Chebet, Philip Messenger, Maurice Sendak, Barrett Gordon, Shonni Enelow, Hannah Weiner, Dan Vera, Kristin Berkey-Abbott, Douglas James Martin, Randall Williams, Phil Crippen, Roy Kiyooka, Anita Dolman, Chris Martin, Max Ernst, Michael Rothenberg, Adeena Karasick, D.H. Lawrence, Sean O Riordain, Anne Kaier, Simone dos Anjos, Brian McMahon, Josef Capek, Glori= a Oden, Georges Hugnet, Sekuo Sendiata, Timothy Yu, Craig Dworkin, Mary Ann Sullivan, Guillermo Juan Parra, Paul Klinger, Catherine Wagner, Angela Veronica Wong, Terence Gower, Chris Toll, Francis Picabia, David Bromige, John Estes, Kenneth Koch, John Moore Williams, harry k. stammer, Kyle Gann, Paul Guest, Carl Rakosi, Cole Porter, Ray Craig, Bob Holman, Jordan Stempleman, Gilbert Sorrentino, Larissa Shmailo, Kris Hemensley, Jennifer Manzano, Peter Culley, Dan Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Lloyd Schwartz, Peter Larkin, MaryLou Sanelli, Clare Latremouille, Karla Kelsey, Peter Magliocco, Bruce Stewart, Kyle Simonsen, Glenn Ingersoll, Teri Hoskin, Henry Louis Gates, John Mcmahon, Dan Raphael, Tanya Allen, Annie Finch, Mitch, Bill Kushner, Rochita Ruiz, Tom Gilroy, Yashodhara Raychaudhuri, Elaine Terranova, Tom Hibbard, Joel Nichols, Don Cheney, Ashraf Osman, Melanie Little, Barbara Cole, Chris Higgs, Paul van Ostaijen, Kate Hill Cantrill, George Kalamaras, Ren Powell, Steve Smith, Lloyd Mintern, Denise Duhamel, Veselovsky Pitts, G.L. Ford, Stanton, Kyle Minor, Bradford Haas, Kristy Bowen, Mingus Tourette, Anna Joy Springer, Laetitia Sonami, Sam Silva, Candace Kaucher, James Dickey, Kit Kennedy, Jill Jones, Susan Scarlata, Jac= k Kimball, Mary-Anne Breeze, Frederico Garcia Lorca, George Kalamaris, Raymon= d Hsu, Joshua Arnold, Bernadette Mayer, Calvin Bedient, Rachel Tompa, Nathan Curnow, Noel Sloboda, Doug Macpherson, Vivien Bittencourt, Steve Roggenbuck= , Jules Boykoff, Jessica Lawless, Raymond Federman, Sandra Miller, Amos Bronson Alcott, Marina Garcia-Vasquez, Mathew Timmons, Paul Killebrew, Mike Young, John Tipton, Chad Parenteau, Michelle Cross, Eric Abbott, Hayden Carruth, Dream Bitches, William James Austin, St. Teresa of Lisieux, Donald Hall, Karen Weiser, Marty Hebrank, Liberty Heise, Kyle Stich, Charles Reznikoff, Chris Felver, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Mecca Jamilah Sullivan, Henry David Thoreau, Frances Driscoll, Leonard Gontarek, Edward Smallfield, Chris McCreary, Steven Zultanski, Peter Pereira, Marthe Reed, Mackenzie Carignan, Victor Hugo, Rebecca Gopoian, Ivy Alvarez, Highfill, Harry Gilonis, Sotere Torregian, Judy Kamilhor, Justin Sirois, Suzanna Gig, Peter Seaton, Julie Carr, Mazie Louise Montgomery, Sean Reagan, Tennesee Williams= , Anne Kellas, Christopher Nealon, Joan McCracken, Malcolm Phillips, Christopher Casamassima, Andrew Steinmetz, Tom Sheehan, L.Y. Marlow, Martin Larsen, Susana Gardner, David Weinberger, Bill Cohen, Sasha Sommeil, Jill Chan, Josh Robinson, Crag Hill, William Burroughs, Ruthven Todd, Annie Proulx, Monty Reid, Simon Perchik, A.K. Scipioni, Ron Hogan, Marcel Duchamp= , Thomas Day, Bob Arnold, Rabia al Basri, Michael Andre, Raymond Foss, Ruby Mohan, Kate Schatz, Elizabeth Smith, Tom Matrullo, Carmen Racovitza, Blake Butler, Maggie O'Sullivan, Eugene Ostashevsky, Therese Halscheid, Lauren Levato, Hermann Hesse, Christian Prigent, Michael Reid Busk, Caroline Sinavaiana, Marcia Roberts, Muriel Rukeyser, Jessica Watson, sara seinberg, Garth Whelan, Peter Ramos, Harry K Stammer, Tom Jones, Arjun Chandramohan Bali, Lawrence Joseph, Lee Posna, Tim Mcnulty, Patrick James Dunagan, Lauri= e Clark, Sabbir Azam, George Green, David Maney, Jill Alexander Essbaum, Jenn= y Allan, Gary L. McDowell, Samuel Wharton, Leonard Cohen, Kyle Conner, Maxine Hong Kingston, Stephanie Strickland, Michael Schiavo, Lynne Tillman, Jesus Manuel Mena Garza, David-Baptiste Chirot, Augustine Porras, Juan J. Morales= , Tim Z. Hernandez, Diane Ward, Donald Marshall, Jack Collom, Paul Lyons, Megan Kaminski, Chris Fritton, Paul Vermeersch, Aaron Lowinger, Bob Perelman, Steve Yarbrough, J.H. Prynne, Amy King, Geoffrey Chaucer, Joel Dailey, Christopher Hennessy, Meghan O'Rourke and Cathy Park Hong, Jennifer Scappettone, David Hecker, Carl Brush, Joy Hendrickson-Turner, Leny Strobel= , John Timpane, Amanda Watson, Cate Peebles, Danny Snelson, Christopher Mulrooney, Jaime Anne Earnest, Trina Gaynon, Caleb Puckett, Weyman Chan, Patricia Dienstfrey, Evelio Rojas, Susan Tichy, Shawn McKinney, Gerald Bosacker, Joel Kuszai, Norman Lock, Eric Gelsinger, Suzanne Frischkorn, Gabor Szilasi, Shannon Smith, Peter J. Grieco, Nasra al Adawi, Anna Moschovakis, Charles Henri Ford, Nicholas Downing, Sharron Proulx-Turner, Richard Long, Majena Mafe, Timothy Kreiner, Jorge Luis Borges, Lucebert, Chuck Stebelton, John Sparrow, Victor Hernandez Cruz, Jee Leong Koh, Sophie Robinson, Carol Mirakove, Susan Stewart, Adalaide Morris, Camille Bacos, Diane Williams, Robert J. Baumann, Kristi Castro, Don Illich, Holly Anderson, C.D. Wright, Jerome McGann, Alex Gildzen, Joseph Lease, Allen, Meagan Wilson, David H. Thomas, Jane Thompson, Andrew Zawacki, Gottfried Benn, John Hyland, Jim Morrison, Lyle Daggett, Robert Duncan, Diane Lockward, Kate Daniels, Angela Woodward, Paul Vazquez, Jesse Minkert, E. Ethelbert Miller, Scott Withaim, Arthur Rimbaud, Luc Fierens, Daniel Abdal-Hayy Moore, Rackstraw Downes, Elizabeth James, Paolo Javier, Robyn Sarah, Rosemarie Crisafi, Wendy Collin Sorin, Jack Hirschman, Flynne Bracker, Rick Wiggins, Baron Wolman, Frederic Tuten, Su Carlson, Raina Leon= , C.E. Chaffin, Katrinka Moore, Lucy Anderton, Reyes Cardenas, Mei Mei Chang, Scott Malby, Alice Becker-Ho, Wassily Kandinsky, Bob Hazelton, Leonard Schwartz, Larry Smith, Dave Winer, Ivan Carswell, Genevieve Kaplan, John Findura, Shrikanth Reddy, David Horowitz, Jocelyn Grosse, C. Dale Young, Kiki Smith, Scott K. Odom, Brandon Brown, Tim Lockridge, Lauren Goodwin Slaughter, Steve Luxton, Melissa Buzzeo, Aaron Kunin, Anne Haines, William Carlos Williams, Catherine Daly, Jack Martin, Ocean, Angela Rawlings, Richard Hell, Monica de la Torre, Ruth Lepson, Trevor Calvert, Donato Mancini, Diana Adams, Miranda Mellis, Dust Congress Hackmuth, Philip Whalen= , Dan Thomas-Glass, Abigail Licad, Caroline Rothstein, Matt Briggs, Hans Arp, Patrick F. Durgin, Ashley VanDoorn, George Murray, Gerald Bruns, Richard Greenfield, Ken Rumble, John Perrault, Soleida Rios, Andrew Schelling, Robert Marshall, Russell Jaffe, Albert Wendt, Emily Brink, Jennifer Bartlett, Jeannine Hall Gailey, Mecca Sullivan, Ron Silliman, David Caddy, Marcel O'Gorman, Lucy Ives, Sarah Browning, Rob Johnson, Michael Magee, Dou= g Ireland, Tim Martin, Seth Parker, Yi Sang, Andros Montoya, Allama Prabhu, Jacob Glatshteyn, Dan Waber, Jim Goar, Michael Kelleher, Michael Peverett, Patricia Storms, Howard Junker, N. Scott Momaday, Tsuyoshi Yumoto, Peter Manson, Adam Clay, Sharon Mesmer, Sasha Frere Jones, Ronna Johnson, Murphy, Edward Williams, Bernard Hoepffner, Kareem Estefan, Lindsay Colahan, John Stiles, Ed Barrett, Steven Shaviro, Hart Crane, Thad Rutkowski, Paul Pearson, Jan Pollet, Jon Woodward, Frederick Seidel, Laurie Fuhr, Ku-ualhoa Meyer Ho'omanawanui, Peter Dale Scott, Pablo Picasso, Jeremy Halinen, Damie= n Hirst, Camille PB, Glenna Luschei, Jimmy Chen, Fairfield Porter, Douglas Coupland, Kismet Al-Hussaini, Kim Hyesoon, Sarah Vap, Carla Harryman, Louis= e Landes Levi, Kiran Desai, jUStin!katKO, Carol McCarthy, Michael Estabrook, Christian Nicholas, Lauren Russell, Biskit Roth, Ron Koertge, Benjamin Friedlander, Geoff rey Hill, Harold Abramowitz,=C2=AC=E2=80=A0Allison Carte= r, Larry Sawyer, Joanne Underwood, James Sanders, James Wagner, Gyula Illyes, Debora= h Ager, John M. Bennett, Elizabeth Dorbad, Matthew Langley, Amira Baraka, Adrian Khactu, Aaron Smith, David Christopher LaTerre, Ann Margaret Bogle, George Evans, F.T. Marinetti, Steve Mueske, Barrett Watten, Chris Hamilton-Emery, Travis Jay Morgan, Brian Kim Stefans, Julie Doxsee, Jane Monson, Terrance Diggory, Jeremy McLeod, Len Joy, Carrie Etter, Suzan Frecon, Malia Jackson, Akilah Oliver, Carrie Katz, Michael Gizzi, Benjamin Kroh, Michael Koshkin, David McGimpsey, Paul Hegedus, Heather Christle, Anselm Berrigan, Art Durkee, Marianne Moore, Aleksei Kruchenykh, Tom Wolfe, Phil Primeau, Nona Caspers, Dominic Fox, Nate Ethier, Michelle Greenblatt, Julianna McCarthy, Davide Trame, Aaron Vidaver, Alli Warren, Kathleen Fraser, Paula Bernat Bennett, Jon Rolston, Basil King, Henry Darger, Ray Hsu, P. Inman, Ben Lyle Bedard, Dallas Wiebe, Michael Bernstein, Margaret Stawowy, Nicole Steinberg, Maged Zaher, Andrew Levy, Edwin Rodriguez, Harol= d Abramowitz, Red Pine, Kenneth Rexroth, Hong Ou, Julian Beck, Piers Hugill, Daniel Nester, Ryan Clifford Daley, Kurt Brown, Mark Halliday, Emily Abendroth, David McLean, Cara Benson, James Joyce, Lara Odell, Katia Kapovich, Arielle Greenberg, Tony Lopez, Charles Bukowski, Laura Moore, Brian Howe, Juana de Ibarbourou, Barry Schwabsky, Susan Briante, Clayton Eschelman, David Hadbawnik, Brett Evans, Susie Bright, Ted Berrigan, Tony Green, Gary Barwin, Alice Notley, Amy Unsworth, Bryan Coffelt, Else von Freytag-Loringhoven, Samantha Barrow, Henry Longfellow, Max Jacob, Renee Gladman, Susan Denning, Matt Reiter, Lee Friedlander, Lars Palm, Nick Carbo= , Peter Fox, Robert Wexelblatt, Christina Strong, Sophie Read, Jami Macarty, Breyten Breytenbach, Lisa Forrest, Regina Derieva, Sarah Dowling, Phong Bui= , Christopher Sorrentino, Lee Ann Brown, Laura Goldstein, David Jones, Fritz Ward, Alexandra Tolstoy, Chris Abani, Jennifer Gravely, Alicia Rabins, Chri= s Funkhouser, shishir gupta, Clark Coolidge, Ann E. Michael, John Amen, Joann= a Fuhrman, Sueyeun Juliette Lee, Chris Stackhouse, Nico Vassilakis, Trevor Maddock, Lucian Blaga, Kirsten Kaschock, Allen Taylor, Robert Hass, Meghan O'Rourke, Marcus McCann, Emmett Williams, Del Ray Cross, Mimi Gross, Jean Valentine, Rachel Dacus, Piu Roy, T. F. Rice, Sarah Fran Wisby, Dana Ward, Chinua Achebe, Jonkil Dies, Michael Fix, Bill Dunlap, Steven Waling, Alan Davies, Jill Stengel, Weldon Hunter, David Hickman, Wilson Lobko, Duane Locke, Surya Parekh, James Franklin, Mark Hoover, Peter Quartermain, Gary McDowell, Michael Fried, Carl Sandburg, C.P. Cavafy, David Alexander Davies= , Tama Janowitz, Billy Gomberg, Stephen Potter, Jan Beatty, Anna Fulford, Hagiwara Sakutaro, Nicole Brossard, Garth Graeper, K.S. Ernst, Abbey Baker, Alena Hairston, Mary Kasimor, Esa Makijarvi, Sam Heldman, Brian Strang, Donald McGrath, Kevin Davies, Rochelle Ratner, Blaise Cendrars, Elizabeth Swados, Carolyn Guinzio, Janet Mason, Bernadette Geyer, Tom Raworth, Jay Hopler, Allen Ginsberg, Christine Hamm, Davis Schneiderman, DJ Spooky, E. B= =2E Bortz, Michael Wells, Virginie Poitrasson, Nancy M. Grace, Bob Perlman, Rob Fitterman, John Zuern, Catherine Theis, Patti Smith, Pat Nolan, Martin Marriott, Matina L. Stamatakis, Alixandra Bamford, Loretta Clodfelter, Emma Bolden, Laura Wetherington, Ralph Steadman, Osip Mandelstam, Derek Beaulieu= , Corrine Fitzpatrick, W.S. Merwin, Joseph Ross, John Latta, Brandi Homan, Jackie Sheeler, Oscar Bermeo, Todd Swift, Gabe Gudding, Robert Creeley, Bet= h Lifson, Jerry Gordon, Kristen Yawitz, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Yuri Hospodar, Jake Adam York, Edwin Denby, Andrei Codrescu, Ralph-Michael Chiaia, Lee Herrick, Skip, Annie Dillard, Amber Reed, Eleni Sikelianos, Bramhall, Gina Myers, Kate Simon, Matthew Muldar, A.D. Thomas, Countee Cullen, Brenda Connor-Bey, Shanxing Wang, Sara Jaffe, Michael Nicholoff, Simon Ortiz, Laur= a Heidy, Valerie Loveland, Lori Emerson, Edward Field, Richard Barrett, Patricia Tomaszek, Brian Salchert, F. James Hartnell, Lorine Niedecker, Cherilyn Ferroggiaro, Farid Matuk, Robert Frost, James Hoch, Nadia Nurhussein, Ahmed Thomas, Grant Miller, Anna L. Conti, Yuko Otomo, Aharon Shabtai, Albert Goldbarth, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, Dan Richert, Rachel Tzvia Back, Jerrold Shiroma, Ross Priddle, Dan Coffey, Scott Glassman, Jessica Crispin, Oren Slor, Murat Nemet-Nejat, Juliet Wilson, Charles Jensen, Eckhard Gerdes, Sarah Menefee, Dan Visel, Katie Degentesh, Brian Foley, Ravi Shankar, St. Johnnie Walker, Seth Abramson, Language Hat, Jean Vengua, Mytili Jagannathan, Andrew Phillip Tipton, Jennifer Firestone, Keij= i Minato, William Fuller, David Giannini, Cherryl Floyd-Miller, Nick-e Melville, Adam Fieled, Rod McKuen, Niels Hav, Eli Goldblatt, Michelle Bitting, Here Comes Everybody, Owen Smith, Bill Wunder, Paul Hunter, Gregor= y Vincent St Thomasino, Marjorie Perloff, Rigoberto Gonzalez, Christy Church, Basho, Ryan Downey, R.J. Anderson, Vic Monchego, Paul Gacioch, Robert Bly, David Berridge, Sam Pink, Joshua Edwards, Terry Teachout, Andre Breton & Philippe Soupault, Norman Finkelstein, Else Lasker-Schuler, Louis Aragon, Rachel Phillips, Christine Surka, Joe Fletcher, John Eberhart, Michele Belluomini, Yusef Komunyakaa, Sean Bonney, William Neil Scott, Cecilia Corrigan, Saleh Badrah, Noah Eli Gordon, Rita Dove, Carol Stetser, Marjorie Welish, Zachary C. Bush, r. a. washington, Christian Bok, Eireene Nealand, Benjamin Peret, Niall Lucy, Brandon Downing, Geoff Bouvier, Natalie Lyalin, Joshua Clover, Irving Weiss, Marco Alexandre Oliveira, Georges Perec, Patrick Dillon, Nathan Ladd, Marina Tsvetayeva, Chris Kerr, Daneen Wardrop, Ron Suskind, Philip Messinger, Denise Siegel, Justin Katko, Taylor Graham, Alexis Rotella, Scoplaw, Samuel Amadon, Michelle Detorie, Dr. Niama L. Williams, Jim Cory, Sarah Sarai, Theodore Worozbyt, David Graham, Judith Skillman, Ben Doyle, LaTasha N. Nevada Diggs, Jim Andrews, Rita Degli Esposti, Cecco Angiolieri, G.M. Palmer, Heidi Lynn Staples, Jay Robinson, Mendi Obadike, Felicia Shenker, Mary di Michele, Logan Esdale, Evelyn Hampton, Mary Kasimor, Ben Friedlander, Chris Stroffolino, Ellen Cardona, Christa Forster, Sean Serrell, Paul Dutton, Bernard Henrie, Sven Laasko, Stephen Morrissey, Bruce Covey, Harvey Goldner, Janwillem Vandewetering, John Ashbery, Faye Driscoll, Michael Sikkema, Davide Baptiste Chirot, Erik Ehn, Octavio Paz, Ben Hamper, Sumaila Isah Umaisha, Dan Machlin, Gary Parrish, Kevin Killian, Chinwe Azubuike, Liz Murray, Malcolm Davidson, Aryanil Mukhopadhyay, Natalie Bennett, Nick Bacon, Soledad De Costa, Harvey Shapiro, Jon-Patrick Fadely, Cooper, Philip Trussell, Rona Fernandez, Jennifer Hill-Kaucher, Richard O'Russa, Paul Eluard, Asa Boxer, J.R. Foley, Guillaume Apollinaire, Maxine Chernoff, Angela Papala, Chris Mann, Robert Grenier, Stephen Baraban, William Garvin,, John Aragon-Chavez, Langston Hughes, Chella Courington, Amanda Auchter, David Micah Greenberg, Jane, David Shapiro, Jay Cola, Maria Fama, Laurie Duggan, John Shields, Joanne Kyger, Tristan Tzaras, Patricia Peterson, Roger Snell, Elisa Gabbert, Travi= s Nichols, Bruce Andrews, Christopher=C2=AC=E2=80=A0Marlowe, Melanie Miller, = Amy Gerstler, Bill Griffiths, Al Filreis, Josh Hanson, Edward Pettit, Avery Burns,Megan Breiseth, Kevin Opstedal, Amber Nelson, Mike O'Connor, Wayne Koestenbaum, Allan Revich, Will Esposito, Thomas McEvilley, Steve Bradbury, Bernadine Mellis, Jane Joritz-Nakagawa, Charles Alexander, Sharon (Wren) Rogers, Ida Acton, George Bowering, Rachel DuPlessis, Patrick Durgin, Cathi Murphy, Stephen Crane, Hildegard of Bingen, Rene Daumal, Roberta Beary, Lina Vitkauskas, Nick Bredie, Honor Moore, Clay Banes, Catriona Strang, Lars Haugen, Catherine Walsh, Lauren Ireland, James Schuyler, Elias Lonnrot, T.S= =2E Eliot, Uda Kiyoko, David Lawton, Vitezslav Nezval, Leslie Scalapino, Sparrow, Laura Sims, Christine Stewart, Marci Nelligan, Richard Owens, Stev= e Dolph, Joel Chace, Drew Milne, Jules Feiffer, Susan M. Schultz, Fernando Pessoa, Roger Mitchell, Carrie Hunter, Tom Clark, Don Share, Terese Svoboda= , John Bloomberg-Rissman, Lynn Xu, Mike Snider, Shafer Hall, Paul Auster, Hermann Ungar, Raymond Wachter, Arielle Guy, Joe Brainard, Steve Klepetar, Scott David Herman, Shann Palmer, Marton Koppany, Todd Carlstrom and The Clamour, William Corbett, Christopher Harter, Nick Montfort, Paul Foster Johnson, William Freind, Gary Sauer-Thompson, Scott Keeney, Barbara Claire Freeman, Steven Berlin Johnson, Cecilia Borromeo, Sally Greenhouse, Michael Crake, G. Ribemont-Dessaignes, Jessi Lee, John Peck, Beatrix Potter, Matthe= w Burkett, Michael Leong, H.D., Lisanne Thompson, Jane Nakagawa, Sandra Simonds, Gillian McCain, Stephen Kirbach, Stephen Vincent, J.P. Donleavy, Anna Kavan, Birdie Jaworski, Chall Gray, Robyn Art, Thomas Fink, David Meltzer, Adolf Wolfli, Helen Bridwell, Elizabeth Switaj, Geoffrey Gatza, Ji= m Warner, John Keats, Logan Ryan Smith, Ryan Fitzpatrick, William Michaelian, Jay Snodgrass, George Held, Brooks Johnson, Julie Dill, St. Teresa of Avila= , Alan Sondheim, Robert Kelly, Ted Burke, Brandon Barr, Donna Strickland, Diane di Prima, Alan Michael Parker, Jefferson Toal, Geoff Hlibchuk, Kit Robinson, Christian Nagler, William Blake, J.P. Craig, Berenice Dunford, Michael Harris, JF Quackenbush, Helen Losse, Matt Mullins, Caterina Fake, Matthew Siegel, Julie Patton, Siel, Kristine Leja, Aryanil Mukherjee, Nathaniel Siegel, Kevin Connolly, Philip Levine, Hilda Doolittle (H.D.), Michael Peters, Roger Singer, Carol Jenkins, Gabriela =C2=AC=E2=80=A0Erandi= Rico, Craig Perez, AE Reiff, Gelett Burgess, Thurston Moore, Sam Byfield, Angela Vogel, Bruce Weber, Steve Tills, Mary Askin-Jencsik, Endre Farkas, Tony Trigilio, Angela Carr, Slater Brown, Toby Olson, K.Silem Mohammad, Elizabeth Bishop, Andrea Zemel, Sean Hill, Ilya Bernstein, Neil Gaiman, Paul Valery, Jaap Blonk, Kim Addonizio, David Thornbrugh, Bern Porter, Megan Milks, Cedar Sigo, Ted Kooser, Miia Toivio, Alena Hairston/elen gebreab, Unica Zuern, Peter Cook, Mike Hauser, Julia Bloch, Charles Stross, Shin Yu Pai, Mikey Golightly, Zhang Er, Paula Grenside, Richard Deming, Linda Russo, Nadia Halim, Geoffrey Hendricks, Kathy Lou Schultz, Stephen Cope, David Hernandez= , Cole Swensen, Bill Walsh, Pirooz M. Kalayeh, Mara Vahratian, Ange Mlinko, Afroza Soma, Rupert Mallin, The Leader, Etel Adnan, Jennifer Cooke, Mark Granier, Lamont Steptoe, Amina Cain, Geof Huth, Patrick Frank, Giuseppe Ungaretti, Megan Volpert, Charlotte Runcie, Susan Howe, Gene Justice, Matthew Lafferty, Patrick Kurp, Barbara Jane Reyes, Iris Jamahl Dunkle, Amy L. Sargent, Nathalie Stephens, Andrew Johnston, Prabhakar Vasan, Nathaniel Mackey, Abhijit Mitra, Ben Mazer, Thomas Fucaloro, Dr. Jacob Edmond, Yu Jian, Ted Pearson, Linh Dinh, Stephen Nelson, Kenneth Patchen, Robert von Hallberg, Andrew Hughes, Chris Gullo, Shanna Compton, May Pang, Cristiana Baik, Allen Mozek, Fielding Dawson, Stephen Rosenthal, Stefan Brecht, Donal= d Justice, Stan Apps, Shelley Powers, Stephen Vincent Benet, Maya Angelou, Wade Fletcher, Juliana Leslie, Anny Ballardini, John Yau, Bob Kerr, Michael Helsem, Charles Belbin, Jane Jortiz-Nakagawa, John Tyson/Kelly Conway, Teresa K. Miller, Emily XYZ, Jeff Harrison, John P. McNamee, Michelle Taransky, Gertrude Stein, Jen Welch, Doug Hofstadter, Edgar Lee Masters, Andrey Bely, sTEVEN p. rOGGENBUCK, Ed Dorn, Gary Sullivan, Greg Perry, Susa= n Allspaw Pomeroy, Jim Kober, Bobby Byrd, John Sullivan, Charles Johnson, Joh= n Byrum, Charles Simic, Baron Wormser, Scott Pierce, Ada Limon, Kris Waldherr= , Tom O=E2=80=9A=C3=84=C3=B4Connor, Christina Mengert, Danielle Pafunda, Gary= Lutz, David Christensen, Anyssa Kim, Joshua Trott, Zachary Schomburg, Christopher Salerno, Christophe Casamassima, Emily Critchley, Dorothea Lasky, Chris Glomski, Matt Shears, Damian Weber, Justin Marks, Brooke Kaye, Frank Etienne, Judith Jordan, Sam Dillon, Bill Knott, Mara Leigh, Anselem Berrigan, Jeff Bacon, Clifford Odets, JeffreyJoe Nelson, Della Watson, Christiana Langenberg, Robert Peake, cris cheek, Morris Cox, Richard Kostelanetz, Wanda Phipps, Hugo Ball, Kristin Prevallet, Norman Weinstein, Lacey Hunter, Gerald Hausman, Rachel Oliver, Ray McNiece, Bill Dorn, Catullus, Monique Trottier, Joshua Ware, e.e. cummings, Garrett Hongo, Bill Lavender, John Cleary, Sharon Harris, Divya Victor, Jack Spicer, Kate Armstrong, Karl Young, Chad Sweeney, David Solway, Wanda O'Connor, Mahmoud Darwish, Joanne Tracy, Sheila, Amanda Cook, Hugh Nissensen, Sean M. Dalpiaz= , Edna St. Vincent, Caroline Bergvall, Lawrence Giffin, Rob Halpern, Dana Gioia, Daniel Bradley, David Kaufmann, Robert Lowell, kari edwards, Rosanna Lee, Allen Fisher, Stacy Szymaszek, Matt Theado, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Billy Mills, Andy Gricevich, The Philly Sound, Ruel S. De Vera, Trudi West, Danie= l C. Remein, Hillary Gravendyk, Mary Burger, Insani Kamil, Guillermo Parra, Ryan Daley, Jessica Schneider, Carol Novack : Playpoem MP3, Jesse Ferguson, Mark Bernstein, KB Jones, Laura Marks, Kent Freeman, Sara Blakeman, Rodrigo Toscano, Sabyasachi Nag, Budd Parr, Peggy Willis Lyles, Keston Sutherland, Simon DeDeo, Marcus Slease, Emily Crocker, Donald Illich, John Sakkis, Andrew Sage, Joseph Harrington, Adrienne Rich, Tad Richards, Mick Rock, Sabina Murray, Michael Friedman, J.V. Foix, Michael McClintock, Dennis Nurkse, Andrew Shields, Susan Bee, Jacques Gaffarel, Paul Rigolle, William Keckler, Evan J. Peterson, Geoffrey Demarquet, Ariana Reines, Richard Wilbur, Kim Chinquee, Jerome Rothenberg, Laura Carter, Mark Strand, Nichola= s Manning, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Donna Stonecipher, Girish Shambu, Gerald Schwartz, Catherine Taylor, Rachel Levitsky, Michelle Tupko, Chris Corrigan= , Jim McKay, Joel Craig, Jacqueline Risset, Marcus Civin, Melvin Tolson, Lanc= e Anderson, Sampson Starkweather, Peter Carey, Chris Murray, Dorianne Laux, Fiona Templeton, Kimberly Lyons, Claudia Carlson, Aaron Belz, Bill Zavatsky= , Adam Strauss, Curtis Gale Weeks, Jeremiah Bowen, Bill Piety, Jane Hirshfield, mark s kuhar, Brendan Kreitler, Kim Bernstein, Frances Kruk, Margaret Ronda, Chris Piuma, Gina Franco, Anne Boyer, Claire McMahon, Jason Zuzga, Sharon Lynn Osmond, Pirooz Kalayeh, Robert Calero, Laura Jaramillo, Bryan Newbury, Steve Schroeder, St. Catherine of Siena, Anna Akhmatova, Edith Sitwell, Eduardo C. Corral, Megan Burns, Dan Hoy, Walt Whitman, Nic Sebastian, Elizabeth Treadwell, John Phillips, Michael Haeflinger, Karen, C Mehrl Bennett, Michael Hays Sanchez, Henry Edwards, Jeremy James Thompson, Jeffrey Ethan, Lisa Lorenz, Sukhdev Sandhu, Norma Cole, Courtney Rydel, Nin= a Svenne, Robert Zaller, Kirby Olson, Frank Wilson, Changming Yuan, Justin Audia, Janet Holmes, Federico Garcia Lorca, Jon Christensen, C.J. Martin, Matt Rasmussen, Norman Fischer, Bill Day, Mervyn Peake, Yvonne Jacquette, Nathan Logan, Urdu Poetry, Tony Towle, Leslie Kaplan, Philip Nikolayev, Sarah Gridley, Naomi Shihab Nye, Stephen Paul Miller, Mark Van Doren, Bonni= e Jean Michalski, T.R. Wang, Eric Rosenfield, Mark Woods, R. Nemo Hill, Cynthia Lawson, Harry Rutherford, Deborah Patillo, Mark Bibbins, Novica Tadic, Hank O'Neal, Denise Low, Caroline Whitbeck, Hugh Behm-Steinberg, Serena Jost, Elizabeth Marie Young, Reg E. Gaines, Cole Swenson, Kevin Kilroy, Kaia Sand, Harryette Mullen, Charles Deemer, Alan Tucker, Eileen Myles, Meg Foulkes, Martha Ronk, Gil Fagian, Nick Piombino, Betsy Fagin, Anne Germanacos, Alex Cumberbatch, Kenneth Goldsmith, Debby Florence, Bin Ramke, Kariann Burleson, Amy Berkowitz, Liz Waldner, T.A. Noonan, Steven Karl, Francis Ponge, Angela Genusa, F.A. Nettelbeck, Becca Klaver, Andrew Koszewski, Chelsea Hotel, J.P. Rangaswami, Guile Canencia, Carol Snow, Alysha Wood, Jen Hofer, Greg Mulcahy, Lynne Dreyer, Andrew Feindt, Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Susanna Kittredge, Jason Fraley, Nicholas Messenger, Raymond Filip, Mitch Highfill, Ian Tyson, Lisa Fishman, Gloria Frym, St. John Perse, Robin Purves, Peter Davis, Alison Knowles, Russell Edson, Colli= n Kelley, Nashi, Jim Dine, Marie Ponsot, Joseph Ceravolo, Jorie Graham, Barbara Guest, Onishi Yasuyo, Matthew Henriksen, Kent Johnson, Eric Bogosian, Craig Shaffer, Hoa Nguyen, Zolt=E2=88=9A=C2=B0n Hom=E2=88=9A=C2= =B0lyos, Marcella Durand, Afaa Michael Weaver, CAConrad, Eddie Watkins, Jeanne Marie Beaumont, Beth Joselow, David A. Kirschenbaum, Brandon Shimoda, Richard Taylor, H.T. Harrison, Wolfi Landstreicher, Robert Wilson, Andrew Topel, Juliana Spahr, John Levy, Stuart Ross, William Jay Smith, Jane Holland, Martin Edmond, Aldon Lynn Nielsen, Nikolai Gumilov, Billy Jno Hope, David Patton, Brian VanRemmen, Didi Menendez, Nico Alvarado-Greenwood, Danielle Pafunda, Pam Brown, Alexander Pope, Loss Pequeno Glazier, Jordan Scott, Will Edmiston, Robert Allen, Carly Sachs, Rick Burkhardt, Tisa Bryant, Alison Shaffer, Peter Norman, Roger Dean, Justin Evans, Jan Manzwotz, Don Wentworth, Tim Carmody, Guenter Grass, Ricardo Bracho, Erica Hunt, Robert Service, Katherine Hastings, James Finnegan, Elaine Equi, Clancy Ratliff, Mark Tardi= , ee miller, Kara Hearn, Dax Bayard-Murray, Chris Kraus, Marita Dachsel, Redell Olsen, MaryAnn McCarra-Fitzpatrick, Tom Leonard, Wendy Wisner, Jean Roelke, Laura Sells, Donna Kuhn, Wen Yiduo, Erika Mikkalo, Tristan Tzara, Evie Shockley, Sarah Louise Parry, John Dos Passos, Doc Reese, Bob Dylan, Jennifer Montgomery, Lisa Samuels, Nin Andrews, Susan Gevirtz, Karen Mac Cormack, Roger Pao, Wang Ping, Samuel R. Delany, Andy Clausen, Barry Schawbsky, Mary Oliver, Deborah Meadows, Eve Rifkah, Reed Altemus, Alexei Remizov, Christopher Warrington, Bennett/Baron, Bill White, Franco Beltrametti, Joseph Massey, Stephen Mitchelmore, Jason Gray, Rod Smith, Tommi Avicolli Mecca, Richard Bank, Lorenzo Thomas, Matt=C2=AC=E2=80=A0Hart= , Eric Weiskott, Benito Vergara, J.D. Mitchell-Lumsden, Gerard Sarnat, January O'Neill, Miles Budimir, Christopher Kelen, Julie Carter, Tim Peterson, Rust= y Morrison, Jay Rosevear, Jeremy Bushnell, Tomas S. Butkus, Katoh Ikuya, Lin Kelsey, Joan Larkin, Wystan Curnow, Alessandro Porco, Brian Seabolt, Summi Kaipa, Elizabeth Zechel, Thomas Lowe Taylor, Derek Walcott, Carla Milo, Nelly Sachs, Pattie Cowell, Mark Young, Sam Witt, Jed Rasula, Elizabeth Willis, Pamela Lawton, Sandra Seekins, Dave Lovely, Christopher Sindt, Jennifer Rogers, Ben Lerner, Richard Johnny John, Denton Welch, Andre Breton, Peli Grietzer, Erik Sapin, Jonathan Doherty, Michaela Cooper, Cathy Park Hong, Jake Berry, Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, Julie Choffel, Alan d= e Niro, Katie Cappello, F.J. Bergmann, Robert Doto, Zackary Sholem Berger, Nina Alvarez, Katie Haegele, Elizabeth Block, Theo van Doesburg, Jon Frankel, Andrew Lundwall, Lily Brown, Ken Belford, Lisa Robertson, Chris Pusateri, Patrick Chapman, David Daniels, Maurice Blanchot, Georg Trakl, Frank Simone, Tony Barnstone, Thomas A. Clark, John Tranter, Dale Smith, James Tate, Joel Lewis, James Schiller, Dylan Kinnett, Richard Gilbert, George Economou, Tony Trehy, Tammy Ho Lai-Ming, Ophelia Mourne, Harlan Erskine, Melissa Benham, Kahlil Gibran, Jen Tynes, Hannah Craig, A.M. Correa, Katie Acheson, Nazim Hikmet, Brian Lucas, Louis Cabri, Maggie Dubris, Richard Bank, Alan Loney, Stephanie Countiss Emens, Erin Pringle, Anthony Metivier, Marie Buck, Zachary Chartkoff, Jan Oskar Hansen, Michael Jarrett, James Cook, Philip Metres, Jon Paul Fiorentino, Vachel Lindsay, Michael Scharf, o. hunt, Ann M. Fine, Alfred Jarry, John Wood, Robert Desnos, Michael Gause, Danielle Dutton, Jonathan Jones, Eric Mottram, Mary Jo Bang, John Deming, D. Antwan Stewart, Hugh MacDiarmid, Rob, Eleanor Wilner, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Scott Hartwich, Four Horsemen, Gregory Betts= , Bill Berkson, Laurel Ransom, George Schneeman, Kristy Odelius, Lisa Cohen, Sina Queyras, Eric Baus, Angela Vasquez-Giroux, David Miller, MaryAnn McCarra Fitzpatrick, D.A. Powell, Julia Story, Andrea Lawlor, Jane Falk, Matthew G. Kirschenbaum, Ellen Baxt, Gisele Prassinos, Ruth Taylor, Laura Harper, artie gold, Jeni Olin, Sergei Gandlevsky, Lila Zemborain, Tony Tost= , Juan Jose Flores, Brian Mihok, Tan Lin, Sarojini Sahoo, Paul Siegell, Nicol= e Mauro, Caroline Conway, Merrill Gillfillan, Geoffrey, Philip Rowland, Jonathan Evison, Ira Joel Haber, Melissa Pakalinsky, Susan Kaiser Greenland= , Daniel Bailey, Jenny Boully, Djuna Barnes, David Wolach, Nick Twemlow, Rodney Koeneke, Cheryl Snell, Jennifer K. Dick, Reggie Harris, Peter Ganickz, Sheila Murphy, Aimee Nezhukumatathil, Greg Rappleye, Alasdair Gray= , Len Shneyder, Zack Linmark, John Seed, Paul Ford, Rachel Mallino, Jan Bindas-Tenney, Tim Botta, The Pines, Ecce Mulier, Kenneth Goldsmith, Daniel Pritchard, R. Zamora Linmark, Karen Wagner, Camille Roy, Steven Gould Axelrod, Vassilis Zambaras, James Bow, Steve Roberts, Ron Padgett, Jason Labbe, Donora Hillard, Larry Kearney, Kristen Orser, Ed Ruscha, Louise Waller, Sherri Wood, Miriam Jones, Steven Moore, Robert Hershon, Patry Francis, Dave Cook, Sara Veglahn, Alfred Leslie, Henri Michaux, C.K. Williams, Doc Searls, Lars Amund Vaage, Rae Armantrout, Rodrigo Flores, Allen Bramhall, Rigoberto Gonzales and Katha Pollitt, Anatol Stern, Sina Fazelpour, Sarith Peou, Harold Jaffe, L.L. De Mars, Peggy Kelley, Sara Marcus, David Applegate, Lisa Janssen, Jim Moore, Edmond Jabes, Ruth, Wei Ying-Wu, India Radfar, Matthew Cooperman, David Dowker, Laird Hunt, Mina Loy, Erin Bertram, Will Alexander, J. F. Quackenbush, John Gallaher, Robert Ashley, Benjamin Paloff, Andrew Neuendorf, Kusano Shimpei, Dion Farquhar, Lisa, Emily Gordon, Karen Plata, Dinah Roma, Doug Lang, Claire Becker, Cary= l Pagel, Walter Mosley, Stephanie Stickland, Frank Sherlock, Justin Dodd, Katina Papson, Daniel Zimmerman, Keith Waldrop, Douglas Manson, Charles Olson, Bill Peschel, Franklin Bruno, Nathan Hauke, Paul Hoover, William Moor, C. Harris Stevens, Walter Abish, Amy Lemmon, Claude Royet-Journoud, John Keene, Aaron Armstrong Skomra, Jordan Sanderson, Reg Johanson, Peter Yovu, Daniel Pendergrass, John Beer, Justin Lacour, Jennifer Moxley, Nathan Lang, Hazel Smith, Iamnasra Oman, pr primeau, Sheryl Luna, Jonathan Ball, Terry Southern, Christian Peet, Pierre Joris, Oana Avasilichioaei, Arunta, Deanna Ferguson, Tom Phillips, Susan Schultz, Jason Camlot, David Kirschenbaum, Gail Mazur, Jack Hughes, Zack Finch, J.H.Prynne, Rebecca Loudon, Scott Inguito, Esmail Yazdanpour, Naftali Bacharach, Jennifer Osborne, Sylvia Plath, Richard Lopez, Sandy Baldwin, Kirsten Lavers, Andrew Christ, Ann Lauterbach, Shelly Taylor, Nicole Peyrafitte, Jessica Savitz, Sam Golden Rule Jones, K. Silem Mohammad, Lionel Kearns, Lili Bita, Aime Cesaire, R W Sturgess, James Moran, Mike Topp, Dan Featherston, Chris Daniels, Gregory Botts, Nicole Oquendo, Thomas Devaney, Randall, Keith Shein, William Harris, Rik Roots, Patricia Carragon and Andy Comess, Alejandro Tarrab, Matthew Shindell, Eric Gamalinda, Amy Bernier, Spencer Selby, Simone Muench, Piombino, Michelle Buchanan, David Lehman, Jonathan Skinner, Sandra Beasley, Patricia Spears Jones, Hal Saulson, Laura Riding, Taylor Mali, Nam June Paik, W.B. Yeats, Peter Reading, Graham Foust, Brenda Coultas, Emily Lloyd, Ed Skoog, D.G. Jones, Vicente Huidobro, Jared Schickling, Peter Sacks, Kate Pringle, Rita Wong, Laila Lalami, Nancy Friedman, Franz Kafka, Robert Hellam, Brian Campbell, Danny Fields, Mario Cafiero, Peter Ciccariello, Cat Tyc, Nate Pritts, Andrea Brady, Andy Frazee= , Felino Soriano, Clair Becker, Soumana Dasgupta, Jill Riga, David Raphael Israel, Stacey Levine, Mike Magee, Tim Yu, Cesar Vallejo, Isidore Ducasse, Amanda Earl, Romina Freschi, Alan Halsey, Daniel f. Bradley, Charles Rossiter, Noelle Kocot, Jayne Pupek, Aldous Huxley, Deborah Fries, Alani Apio, Jessica Smith, Christopher Barnes, Rick Snyder, Sarah Lang, Emily Dickinson, Cecilia Ann, bpNichol, Susanna Fry, Gerard Manley Hopkins, Charles Borkhuis, Herman Beavers, Stephanie Skura, Jessica Bennett, Steve Carey, Madeline Gins, Thom Donovan, Chuck Perrin, Luci Tapahonso, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, Ira Cohen, Marko J. Niemi, Ray Davis, Nancy Gandhi, Dee Rimbaud, Mary O'Malley, Evie Ivie, Pamela Mack, Lawrence Lessig, Allyssa Wolf, and Snezana Zabic. Brought to you by forgodot.com. --=20 Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --0-687106505-1223166327=:22594-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 02:29:19 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Issue 1 anthology follow-up post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In the midst of this so far rather minor flap (Until my SSN is circulated, I'm keeping my cool.), I'd like to make a request. Anyone out there with a published chapbook, a favorable disposition, and the means to cover international shipping should send a copy or two my way. My address is below. -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And it rhymes! ----- Original Message ---- From: Troy Camplin To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, October 4, 2008 11:31:10 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math A poem on this sort of attitude toward the rich (who are quite generous, not to mention being the ones who provide jobs for everyone -- look to rick liberal politicians for lack of personal generosity): http://zatavu.blogspot.com/2008/09/on-wealthy.html Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, October 3, 2008 6:05:32 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Elizabeth Switaj wrote: >>>I can't help but think that's a bit naive, or else I'm missing the >>>irony. There are poor assholes and rich assholes; there are people who >>>have lost everything who have become more violent and those who have >>>become less violent. No irony here. I have a firm disbelief that ANYTHING will be done to help the poor unless there are millions more made poor. My grandmother used to mention that during the Great Depression everyone who was poor was helping one another, and were used to lending help, sharing food, sharing responsibilities with the kids, the washing. The rich were throwing themselves out windows at the same time because, like my grandmother said and I believe her to be right, the rich knew that without their money their friends were no longer their friends. The poor have always only had one another. This is not naive, this is survival. From my experience I can say that being desperately poor is awful. But I can also say that (something I've already said) it's other poor people who give the most. Call me naive, that's fine, I've been called much worse. But the rich will never lend a hand to the poor unless that hand is MADE to thrust forward. History has shown this, and history shows it winds up being kind to no one in the end, this sort of politics. Call me naive Elizabeth, but poverty itself is created by the most violent people on earth, those with the most money to perpetuate war and genocide. And poverty is a form of war, a form of genocide. Do you realize there have not been this many poor people (entire families!) homeless, living in tents in America since the Great Depression? The BBC has a bus on tour of America right now, leading up to the election, and they have shown parking lots of people living in cars. They've shown the red tents of NICKELVILLE, which the police raided and terrorized most recently. Amy Goodman of DEMOCRACY NOW recently interviewed activists trying to help the terrified families of NICKELVILLE who were raided. And NICKELVILLE is being shown so often because of its catchy name more than anything, but there are a lot of places like NICKELVILLE in this country right now. None of this matters at the moment though as the vote went through. The world will breathe a sigh, and go on making shit no one needs to sell to people who need nothing more than they already have while millions and millions will fight and scrap over their place in line at the Salvation Army food table. My mother and I spent some nights at the Salvation Army when I was a kid and it was awful. They make you sing hymns and listen to ridiculous lectures (sermons) about Jesus before you eat. We did it because we were hungry, of course, but when I look back on it I feel it's a terrible thing to keep hungry people hungry until they adhere to your religious doctrine. And I especially remember one Salvation Army in Chicago where we shared space with a Jewish mother and her two little girls, but they sang, we all sang, you had to fucking sing. This isn't naive, this is survival. They got their vote the way they wanted it. The money is for the rich, again. They pilfer and rape our resources and make presidential candidates take their eyes off the war yet again. And I still say that unless EVERYONE is brought to their knees nothing will be done. The poor need enormous numbers before a FDR steps up and does something. And I'm voting for Obama, but when I hear him talk about Welfare Reform (welfare for the poor that is) there seems little help on the way. 700 billion in welfare for the rich seems fine to Washington though. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:59:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Nature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Nature Of attention Appear Her colourless intercourse The attention of nature At a pitiless speech http://www.alansondheim.org/snapped1.jpg ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:49:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <001001c92672$801692a0$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isn't that the aspiration of EVERY poetry anthology? Usually people just get pissed off about what's excluded; this is far more interesting. > Why should anyone spend so much time and effort > 'p...ing off the poetry community'? > What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is that? ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:21:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <841493.95562.qm@web53707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) ache anthology bake anthology cake anthology dyke anthology eyck anthology flake anthology hake anthology ike anthology joke anthology kkk anthology like anthology mike anthology nike anthology oink anthology pink anthology quick anthology rico anthology sick anthology tacky anthology ugh anthology voip anthology wipe anthology xenon anthology yikes anthology zip anthology Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 4, 2008, at 6:52 PM, Amish Trivedi wrote: > Certainly solves problems related to THE CANON > > --- On Sat, 10/4/08, John Cleary wrote: > From: John Cleary > Subject: Re: fake anthology > To: amishius@yahoo.com > Cc: POETICS@listserv.buffalo.edu > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 6:48 PM > > I'm glad I'm not the only one who is pleased to be included in any > anthology, even a fake one with a poem I didn't write. > > John > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Amish Trivedi > wrote: > > Dear Geraldine, > > > > You're just jealous no one googled your name. Or maybe they did and > I didn't see it because I only looked up my name, read the poem I > wrote and then closed it. > > > > What's the point in being made of fun as being shallow if I can't be > shallow once in a while! > > > > amish > > > > --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Geraldine Monk wrote: > > From: Geraldine Monk > > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 5:42 PM > > > > I don't get this. Why should anyone spend so much time and effort > > 'p...ing > > off the poetry community'? What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is > > that? > > If the intention had been to amuse the poetic community I might have > given > > it some credence but I object to its intention and I couldn't give a > fig if > > I'm mentioned or not - I'm certainly not ploughing through that list > to > > find > > out. I'd lose my will to live and I don't need silly endorsements of > > this > > kind. > > > > I also find it strange that 'whoever' seems to think the 'poetic > > community' > > is of one mind. I think the posting to this list have shown that > poets are > > very diverse in their reactions. My reaction? I find it rather > depressing > > that in these troubled times (aren't times always troubled) there > are far > > more deserving people to p.off. I think 'whoever' did it should be > > updated > > on the world situation and then maybe they could consider getting a > life. > > > > Geraldine > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mathias Svalina" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:34 PM > > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > > > > >> This is one of the first good jokes in contemporary poetry. I can't > >> stop laughing at this; its hilarious in so many ways. > >> > >> I wonder if part of the prank was to see how many hits they'd get > >> immediately from self-googlers. > >> > >> I'm pretty pleased with my poem in it. I think i'll put it in my > > next > >> book. > >> > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:39:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Issue 1 Release Announcement In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hey i'll try adding "my" poem to my CV at "merit review" time to see if i can actually cash in on it for a better raise...that would be really great payback for having lent my name, however unwittingly, to this enterprise. i was sorta flattered, like, now i'm a "real" poet if someone's trying to fake me... Steve McLaughlin wrote: > Announcing the release of Issue 1, edited by Stephen McLaughlin and Jim > Carpenter. Now available > here as > a 3,785-page PDF. Again, that url is < > http://arsonism.org/issue1/Issue-1_Fall-2008.pdf>. > > This issue features new poems by Nada Gordon, Evelyn Reilly, Julianna > Mundim, Emmy Catedral, Enid Bagnold, Richard Siken, Stephen Ratcliffe, > Michael Gottlieb, Jodie Childers, Norman J. Olson, Brent Hendricks, Sean > Kilpatrick, Tom McCarthy, Stacy Doris, Michael Rerick, Corrinne Clegg Hales, > Mark Decarteret, Hadewijch of Antwerp, Darren Wershler-Henry, Letitia Trent, > Debra Di Blasi, Laura Elrick, Bruna Mori, Popahna Brandes, Robert Sheppard, > Diana Magallan, Kristine Danielson, Ed Higgins, Drew Gardner, Kyle Kaufman, > Matthew Thorburn, Tiel Aisha Ansari, Christopher Wells, Vanessa Place, Simon > Pettet, Grace Vajda, John Bennett, Ian Patterson, Joseph Hutchison, John > Cotter, Cheryl Lawson Walker, Scott Esposito, Jason Nelson, Daniel Kane, > Kimo Armitage, Alan May, J.D. Nelson, Bob Hershon, Jennifer Karmin, Kim > Rosenfield, Nathan Austin, Pearl Pirie, Rosmarie Waldrop, Tara Betts, Donald > Revell, Jim Ryals, Danuta Kean, Jeff VanderMeer, Alfredo Bonanno, Irene > Latham, Michael Hennesy, Dick Higgins, John Hanson, Billy Merrell, Sam > Ladkin, Jeff Ward, Debra Jenks, K. Lorraine Graham, Kenji Okuhira, Sean > MacInnes, Adam Seelig, Steve Halle, David Mus, Monique Wittig, Joyelle > McSweeney, Daniel E. Levenson, Luke Daly, Henry Thoreau, John Palattella, > Abby Trenaman, Kristen Taylor, Vassily Kamensky, David Jhave Johnston, Gene > Tanta, Cate Marvin, Alison Roth, Shad Marsh, Asher Ghaffar, Henry Gould, > Justin Theroux, Susan Grimm, Bernard Wilson, Ateet Tuli, Laura Moriarty, > Mark McMorris, Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle, Jeffrey Cyphers Wright, William > Shakespeare, Nick Trinen, Daphne Gottlieb, Magdalena Zurawski, A.K. Arkadin, > Matthue Roth, Douglas J. Belcher, After Bitahatini, Neil Schmitz, Liz Henry, > Tom Hansen, Craig Saper, Pris Campbell, Afua-Kafi Akua, Amish Trivedi, Chris > Hutchinson, Cath Vidler, Sarah Weinman, A.E. Stallings, Robin Blaser, Roland > Prevost, Mac Wellman, Steven Schroeder, Joy Garnett, Mark Lamoureux, Julie > Clark, Bob Garlitz, Jeff Hamilton, Kara Dorris, Maureen Thorson, Irv > Muchnick, Frank O'Hara, Robin Magowan, C. Allen Rearick, A. J. Patrick > Liszkiewicz, Tony Leuzzi, Bhanu Kapil, Sage U`ilani Takehiro, Shellie > Zacharia, Lorna Dee Cervantes, Camille Martin, Eliot Weinberger, David > Nemeth, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Iris Smyles, Bertolt Brecht, David Forbes, > Colin Herd, Sergio Bessa, Zach Wollard, Adam Ford, Claudia Keelan, Hank > Sotto, Jamba Dunn, Ken Mikolowski, Jean-Jacques Poucel, Santiago B. > Villafania, David Valentinovia, Robert Kaufman, Dominique Meens, Joe Elliot, > August Stramm, Justin Katko! Sandra Korchenko, Carol Peters, Lilah Hegnauer, > Brian Evenson, Wallace Stevens, Timothy Murphy, Joseph Bradshaw, Nick > Courtright, Adam Chiles, James, Kane X. Faucher, David Abel, Ray Succre, > Gabriel Gudding, Antonin Artaud, Mark Cunningham, Paul Fattaruso, William > Saroyan, Aaron McCollough, Confucius/Ezra Pound, David Antin, Rob Mackenzie, > Ryan Eckes, Christian Peet, Peter Riley, Litsa Spathi, Anna Ahkmatova, Mark > Tursi, J.D. Schraffenberger, Greg Fuchs, Sean Casey, Orpingalik, Hassan > Melehy, Rosemarie Waldrop, Phillip Lund, Adam Aitken, Michael Davidson, > Andrea Rexilius, William Allegrezza, Raymond Queneau, Fred Wah, Marcia > Arrieta, Elizabeth Cross, Jonathan Greene, Gregory Laynor, Preston Spurlock, > Jane Sprague, Kevin Thurston, Stephen Berry, William Bronk, Claudia Rankine, > Steve Dalachinsky, Ed Sanders, Sam Rasnake, Wes Smiderle, James Belflower, > Simmons B. Buntin, Dolores Dorantes, Emilie Clark, Leslie Marmon Silko, > Sarah O'Brien, Jack Tricarico, Gerard Van der Luen, Frances Richard, Charlie > Bertsch, Bob Cobbing, Sabrina Calle, Steven Burt, Stephane Mallarme, Bob > Marcacci, Edwin Torres, Lois Marie Harrod, Evgeny Maizel, Luc Simonic, > Lawrence Durrell, Amanda Davidson, Pendergast, Gregory Orr, Lepson, Joseph > Duemer, Eric Alterman, Erin M. Bertram, Leopold Sedar Senghor, Suzanne > Buffam, Andy Nicholson, Edward Champion, Katy Acheson, Okey Ndibe, Jennifer > Mulligan, Renee Zepeda, Alfred Kubin, Sawako Nakayasu, David Prater, Forrest > Gander, Mike Gubser, Virginia Heatter, Leslie Winer, Ed Schenk, Doug Holder, > Russell Ragsdale, Jose Manuel Velazquez, Dick Jones, Gerry Loose, Daniel J. > Vaccaro, Rafael Alberti, Jeff Newberry, Igor Terentiev, Micah Robbins, > Friedrich Holderlin, Arif Khan, Laurel Dodge, Ann White, Nicolas Guillen, > John Lowther, Cathleen Miller, Josef Vachal, Chris Moran, Miyazawa Kenji, > Robert Fitterman, Norman Mailer, Doris Shapiro, Talan Menmott, Alan Licht, > John Godfrey, James Maughn, Anne Heide, Jasmine Dreame Wagner, Lina ramona > Vitkauskas, Judith Goldman, Rich Murphy, Halvard Johnson, Ariel Dorfman, Ed > Baker, Maryrose Larkin, Sheila E. Murphy, Rosanna Warren, Jean Cocteau, > Clarence Major, Eleanor Stanford, Teresa Carmody, Kenward Elmslie, Rainer > Maria Rilke, Ryan Walker, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Nava Fader, Rob Budde, > Allison Cobb, Robert Roley, Alison Collins, Melissa Fondakowski, Nathan > Whiting, Jess Rowan, Cid Corman, Bob Heman, Libby Rosof, Cassie Lewis, Scott > Saner, Roberta Allen, Raymond Farr, Anne Pierson Wiese, kevin mcpherson > eckhoff, Troy Lloyd, Lindsay Boldt, Andrea Baker, Meredith Quartermain, > Richard Meier, Louise Mathias, Joseph Cooper, Lynn Strongin, Outlines, > Suzanne Stein, Richard de Nooy, Sherry, Robert Chrysler, Ton van't Hof, > Peter Cole, Michael Slosek, June Jordan, Andrew Zitka, Eve Babitz, G.C. > Waldrep, Craig Santos Perez, James Sherry, Hugh, David R. Slavitt, Dino > Campana, Stephen Berer, Alastair Johnston, Angela Jaeger, Javier Huerta, Jed > Birmingham, David Harrison Horton, Alan Baker, Steve Clay, Kevin Coval, Tony > Brown, Debesh Goswami, Michael Farrell, Abigail Child, Tanya Larkin, Ron > Slate, Emmanuel Hocquard, Lauren Dixon, Jan Zwicky, Andrew Joron, Jessica > Wickens, Arthur Sze, David Baptiste Chirot, Steven May, Rob Cook, Ankur > Saha, Eric Unger, Chris Heilman, James Purdy, Derek Henderson, James > Collins, L.J. Moore, Michael McClure, D.S. Marriott, Michael Heller, Robert > Mittenthal, Eileen Tabios, Aki Salmela, Lou Rowan, Jerome Seaton, Lori > Lubeski, Paul Hardacre, Rus Bowden, John Wieners, Lauren Levin, Johanna > Drucker, Velimir Khlebnikov, Terry Bisson, Martha Plimpton, Miklos Radnoti, > Ken Kesey, Matvei Yankelevich, Seth Forrest, Maria Damon, David MacDuff, > Kevin Doran, Rob Read, Kristen Gallagher, Rick Visser, Andrei Bely, Sara > Crangle, Karl Klingbiel, Jackson Mac Low, Fox, Derik Badman, Paul Griffiths, > Oliver Rohe, Mark L. Lilleleht, Michelle Bautista, Monica Schley, Aaron > Levy, andrew nightingale, Douglas Messerli, Pattie McCarthy, David West, Jon > McKenzie, James Weber, Carlos Rojas, Donatella Izzo, Francois Luong, Daniel > Borzutzky, Umm Zaid, Tony D'Arpino, James Tierney, Tao Lin, Rochelle Owens, > Amy Friedman, Natalie Zina Walschots, Kayin Wong, Emily Sher, Deborah R. > Geis, Kristen Iskandrian, Brother Tom Murphy, Jeremy Gardner, Alcoholic > Poet, Chris Mansel, Keith Tuma, Chris Mansell, Rob MacDonald, Yuan Mei, > Stanislaw Witkiewicz, Joshua Schuster, Glenn Bach, Maureen Owen, Richard > Wink, Guy Bennett, Eric Elshtain, Reza Shirazi, Tonya Foster, Karl Kempton, > Allan Gurganus, Alizon Brunning, Christopher Davis, Richard Foreman, > Francois Luong, Yvonne Werkman, rob mclennan, Mark McCarthy, Bill Marsh, Tom > Devaney, John Most, Nick Moudry, Jennifer Reimer, Charles Baudelaire, > Gabriel Pomerand, Crane Giamo, Vernon Frazer, Mike Basinski, Oliver de la > Paz, Leon Damas, Mark Ducharme, Jim Leftwich, Eliot Katz, Pat Lawrence, Jeff > Daily, Jefferson Navicky, Tom Savage, Legs McNeil, mIEKAL aND, Leevi Lehto, > Allyson Clay, Cy Mathews, Dereck Clemons, Clayton Eshleman, Benjamin > Parzybok, Kevin Isu, Laura Mullen, Angelo Suarez, Kate Greenstreet, Andrew > Burke, Natalie Simpson, Susan Smith Nash, Peter Gizzi, Dana Goodyear, > Terence Winch, Sandy McIntosh, Cris Mazza, James Thurber, Sarah O’Brien, > Firoze Shakir, Elizabeth Castagna, D.J. Huppatz, David Koehn, Kyra Saari, > Philip Jenks, Martin Corless-Smith, Jacques Leslie, Will Gallien, Mathew > Timmons, Eric Lochridge, Buck Downs, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Leonard Michaels, > Francis Raven, seflo, Nina Shope, Carson Cistulli, Jennifer Banks, Deborah > Burnham, Steve Langan, Rosalva Garcia Coral, Betty Stork, Erica Van Horn, > Anna Evans, Lizzie Skurnick, Skip Fox, Olde Quietude, Samuel Taylor > Coleridge, Jonathan Williams, Sarah Maclay, Pablo Neruda, Richard Tuttle, > Fran Herndon, Cheryl Clark, Allen Itz, Derek White, Barry MacSweeney, Eben > Eldridge, Sandra Ridley, Normie Salvador, Priscilla Long, Alan Gilbert, > Dennis Tedlock, Steve Benson, Brian Whitener, Rene Char, Lawrence Ytzhak > Braithwaite, Teresa Ballard, Barbara Henning, Mario Melendez, Jacques > Demarcq, Harvey Bialy, Gary Norris, Kerry Shawn Keys, Dawn Pendergast, Aimee > Parkison, Michael Cooper, Chris Killen, Les Webb, Roberta Fallon, John > Fillwalk, Stephen McLaughlin, Elizabeth Robinson, Bob Heffernan, Zak Smith, > Nicholas Lea, Tsering Wangmo Dhompa, Dan Beachy-Quick, Ross White, Stan Mir, > Tim Atkins, Poppy Z. Brite, Dylan Hock, Kurt Vonnegut, Mez Breeze, Stephanie > Heit, J. Mason, Colleen Lookingbill, John Hall, Michelle Morgan, Alexi > Parshchikov, Clemente Padin, Lisa Jarnot, Lance & Andrea Olsen, Mark > Wallace, Nancy Kuhl, Xu Smith, Jorge de Lima, Hillary Lyon, Clayton Couch, > Gunnar Ekelof, Alex Caldiero, Clifford Burke, Karri Kokko, Brent Goodman, > Daniel Clowes, Todd Suomela, Arlene Ang, David McDuff, Bill Sherman, Ezra > Mark, Kathryn Pringle, Jem Cohen, Adam Tobin, Thomas Meyer, Clifford Duffy, > Anne Waldman, Nancy Shaw, Pilar Olabarria, Chris Maher, Ezra Pound, David > Hilmer Rex, Levari, Jerome Sala, Ryan Collins, Alexander Jorgensen, Shouva > Chattopadhyay, Linda Susan Jackson, Jonathan Mayhew, Pejk Malinovski, > Michael Parker, Claude Simon, Ian Keenan, Peter O'Brien, Jeannie Hoag, > Marcel Janko, Beverly Jackson, Loren Webster, Daniel Knudsen, Michael P. > Steven, Rose Kelleher, Mare Mikolum, Marcel Broodthaers, Reb Livingston, > Steven Lohse, Faye Smailes, Thomas Kinsella, Peter Middleton, Kurt > Schwitters, Lou Suarez, Jay Millar, Paul Holman, Michael Palmer, Larry > Eigner, Jean-Michel Espitallier, Charles Bernstein, Bill Allegrezza, Tenney > Nathanson, Jeff Crouch, Brian Spears, Peter Makin, Lynn Crosbie, Michael > Carr, Robinson Jeffers, Fanny Howe, David Vincenti, Erica Wessmann, Lydia > Davis, Craig Teicher, Jorge Luiz Antonio, Matt Christie, Jean-Patrice > Courtois, Gregory Pardlo, Nathaniel Tarn, Simone Fattal, Orhan Pamuk, Ofelia > Hunt, Louise Gluck, David Pavelich, Lanny Quarles, George Seferis, Louise > Bogan, Susan Minot, Star Black, Ted Stimpfle, Michael Lally, Sean Whelan, > Arlo Quint, Grace Molisa, Jasmine Dream Wagner, Armand Schwerner, Anselm > Parlatore, Tom Orange, Frank Kuenstler, Robin Coste Lewis, MacLaren Ross, > Nick, Katey Nicosia, Geraldine Connolly, Sharanya Manivannan, Maud Newton, > Kerri French, Charles Shere, Stephen Burt, Tony Fitzpatrick, Mark Peters, A. > R. Ammons, Jenny Davidson, Tom Hopkins, Laurie Price, Woody Haut, Jim > Toweill, Anne Tardos, Ronald Johnson, Will Skinker, Linda Marie Walker, Dave > Schiralli, Rachel Talentino, Christopher McVey, Jordan Davis, Chris Tonelli, > Patrick Culliton, Michael Basinski, Christina Brown, Kathleen Rooney & Elisa > Gabbert, Maria Benet, Regis Bonvicino, Richard Huelsenbeck, Julia Cohen, Jim > Behrle, Stephanie Bolster, Timothy Liu, Donna Brook, Kristin Abraham, Marcus > Bales, Patricia Wellingham Jones, Susie Timmons, Clayton A. Couch, Myung Mi > Kim, John Litzenberg, Zoe Strauss, Jonathan Meakin, Janine Pommy Vega, John > Matthew, Robert Sund, Janne Nummela, Robert Archambeau, Dodie Bellamy, > Meghan Scott, Stephen Johnson, Brenda Schmidt, Lisa Flaherty, Martine > Bellen, Ron Loewinsohn, Darryl Keola Cabacungan, Chris Ransick, Sean T. > Hanratty, Tim Gaze, Kathleen Rooney, Tom Mandel, AnnMarie Eldon, Tom Peters, > Billy Jones, Gilbert Adair, Jim  Behrle, Peter Jay Shippy, Amanda > Laughtland, Juliet Cook, Joshua Marie Wilkinson, Brian Smith, Aldo > Palazzeschi, Richard Denner, Anthony Robinson, Chris Tysh, Christopher > Stackhouse, Paul Muldoon, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Ellen Orleans, Robin > Reagler, Susan Maxwell, Delia Mellis, John Baker, Jack Boettcher, Lex > Camena, Jeffery Bahr, Veronica Montes, Miriam Nichols, Phil Hall, Tyler > Carter, Jessica Treat, Mairead Byrne, C.S. Carrier, C.L. Bledsoe, Barbara > Maloutas, Peter Schjeldahl, Marc Andre Robinson, Morgan Lucas Schultdt, Sean > Thomas Dougherty, Rebecca Hazelton, Ryan Bird, Ernst Meister, Edith > Sodergran, Bronwen Tate, Joritz-Nakagawa, Sharon Mollerus, Talan Memmott, > Robert Burns, Jim Dunn, Matthew Cheney, Edward Nudelman, Subhro > Bandopadhyay, Tiff Dressen, Sandy Florian, Jesse Glass, Jennie Skerl, Phil > Fried, Eric Gurney, Christof Scheele, Nicholas Rombes, Billy Collins, > Eugenio Montale, Gautam Verma, Tyler Cobb, Kendra Malone, Tom Beckett, > Vivian Vavassis, Jude MacDonald, Joanna Sondheim, Paul Naylor, Kazim Ali, > Josh Corey, Patrick Donnelly and Stephen Miller, Ari Bania, Geoffrey G. > O'Brien, Leonard Kress, Philippe Soupault, Steve Caratzas, Joseph Mains, > William Yazbec, Standard Schaefer, Betsy Andrews, Carlo Carra, Marie > Hopkins, Anna Maria Hong, Burt Kimmelman, Karen J. Weyant, Max Middle, Joan > Retallack, Gil Ott, Dennis Cooper, David Matlin, Tino Gomez, B.J. Love, > Helen White, John Crowley, Weldon Kees, Louis Zukofsky, David Trinidad, > Andrew Peterson, Bill Seaman and Penny Florence, Heather O'Neill, Reginald > Shepherd, Annie Guthrie, Ammiel Alcalay, Carton Tragedy, Alfred Corn, > Barbara Smith, Jozef Imrich, Yagi Mikajo, Stephen Thomson, Mark Rudman, Jena > Osman, Ernesto Priego, Ken Springtail, Sam Beckbessinger, Cecilia Vicuna, > Behm-Steinberg, Kate Schapira, Deidre Elizabeth, Jean Lehrman, Seth Landman, > Ana Bozicevic-Bowling, Jess Mynes, Will Yackulic, Caroline Wilkinson, Maria > Sabina, eldon, Richard Lighthouse, Michael Smoler, Henry Hills, Mark Marino, > Poton, Thomas O'Connell, David Henderson, Michael Cross, Maralyn Lois Polak, > Joe Brennan, Alice Cary, Erica Kaufman, Lewis Warsh, Steve Evans, David > Byrne, Frank Parker, Kaz Maslanka, Jenna Cardinale, Peter Straub, EK Smith, > Megan Martin, Meghan Punschke, Sherry Chandler, E. Tracy Grinnell, Tom Muir, > Jeff Davis, F. Daniel Rzicznek, Diana Magallon and Jeff Crouch, Kyle > Schlesinger, Stuart Dybek, Marco Giovenale, Zach Savich, Tom Wegrzynowski, > Arnie Hoffman, Rikki Ducornet, Dawn, Thomas Fink,, Christian Jensen, Andrew > Philip, Dave Pollard, Miriam Burstein, Jessica Bozek, Patrick So, Joe > Massey, Carmine Starnino, Evan Kennedy, Chris Vitiello, Nick Bruno, Amy > Newman, Sharon Gilbert, Aaron Tieger, William Wordsworth, Eugenio Tisselli, > julia doughty, Marko Niemi, Pierre Reverdy, Lytton Smith, Lee Gurga, Jed > Shahar, Tim Hunt, Lee Upton, Mark Scroggins, Rachel Smith, Robert Wodzinski, > Matthew Blake, Matina Stamatakis, Robert Waxman, Jack McGuane, Bethany Ides, > Alfred Arteaga, Kat Meads, Sandra Gilbert, Carlo Parcelli, Jeff Calhoun, > John Bryant, Jasper Bernes, Jeffrey Joe Nelson, Joan Houlihan, Lynn > Behrendt, Jack Kerouac, Brenda Iijima, James Koller, Sun Yung Shin, Ixta > Menchaca, John Barton, Piero Heliczer, Todd Colby, Awotunde Aworinde, Emma > Barnes, Allison Whittenberg, Jenni Russell, Rowan Wilken, Daniela Olszewska, > Layne Russell, George Oppen, Ben Yarmolinsky, Phil Cordelli, Andrew Kozma, > Harry Wilkens, Jonathan Lethem, Richard Gorecki, Jilly Dybka, Kirthi Nath, > Jennifer Bredl, Paolo Buzzi, Aime Cesaire & Rene Depestre, Ruben Dario, > Rachel Loden, William Bryant, hassen, Kerryn Goldsworthy, Jessamyn West, > Salvador Dali, Greg Djanikian, George M Wallace, Sharon Brogan, Roger Farr, > Lesley Yalen, Jessica Tillyer, Cathy Eisenhower, Noah Falck, Beka Goedde, > Patrick Lovelace, Erik Anderson, Shahar Gold, Olivier Cadiot, Peter O'Leary, > Mel Nichols, Juan Felipe Herrera, Mirabai, Rob Mackenzie, Bethany Wright, > Joseph Mosconi, MTC Cronin, Terrance Hayes, Bryson Newhart, Yoko Ono, > Gherardo Bortolotti, Olli Sinivaara, Jim Crace, Brendan Lorber, Tracie > Morris, Jeffrey Side, Brent Cunningham, Henry Miller, Christina McPhee, Mike > Nicoloff, Ray Federman, Valerie Coulton, HL Hazuka, Ari Banias, Thomas > Hummel, Nicolette Bond, J.F. Quackenbush, Julia Stein, Bill Borneman, Jon > Link, Steve Dickison, Scott Helmes, Brion Gysin, Sean Burke, Laynie Brown, > Hermit-Sage Tradition, Jane Dark, Scott Withiam, Lance Phillips, Michael > Ford, John Olson, John Bailey, Rebecca Morgan Frank, Derek Motion, Ashby > Tyler, Sarah Campbell, Andrea Strudensky, Roger Gilbert-Lecomte, Mathias > Svalina, Ishle Yi Park, Dubravka Djurić, John McHale, Grant-Lee Phillips, > Jeremy Czerw, Richard Newman, Diana Slampyak, David McFadden, Jim McGrath, > Gregory Crosby, tyler funk, Kristi Maxwell, Vladimir Zykov, Daniel Brenner, > Don Mee Choi, Ted Greenwald, Meena Alexander, Sarah Mangold, Steve > McCaffery, Jill Magi, Glen Bach, Hank Lazer, Stephen Brockwell, Helen Adam, > Sasha Steensen, Ryan Alexander MacDonald, Vladimir Mayakovsky, Jack Morgan, > Jr., Radu Dima, Larissa Szporluk, Teresia Teaiwa, Amiri Baraka, Monica Mody, > Vincent Katz, Jen Benka, Roberto Harrison, Edward Byrne, Patrick Rosal, > Cheryl Townsend, Carol Novack, Clive Thompson, Mary Biddinger, Erica Lewis, > Michael Robins, Mira Schor, Severo Sarduy, John Taggart, Lauren Krueger, > Wanda O’Connor, Peter Van Toorn, Kevin Varrone, Mark Axelrod, Erica Svec, > Erik Donald France, Daniel Green, Marilyn Hacker, Ben Wilkinson, Stephanie > Young, David Hall, Joe Moffet, Ric Royer, Basil Bunting, Peter Everwine, > Terryanne Chebet, Philip Messenger, Maurice Sendak, Barrett Gordon, Shonni > Enelow, Hannah Weiner, Dan Vera, Kristin Berkey-Abbott, Douglas James > Martin, Randall Williams, Phil Crippen, Roy Kiyooka, Anita Dolman, Chris > Martin, Max Ernst, Michael Rothenberg, Adeena Karasick, D.H. Lawrence, Sean > O Riordain, Anne Kaier, Simone dos Anjos, Brian McMahon, Josef Capek, Gloria > Oden, Georges Hugnet, Sekuo Sendiata, Timothy Yu, Craig Dworkin, Mary Ann > Sullivan, Guillermo Juan Parra, Paul Klinger, Catherine Wagner, Angela > Veronica Wong, Terence Gower, Chris Toll, Francis Picabia, David Bromige, > John Estes, Kenneth Koch, John Moore Williams, harry k. stammer, Kyle Gann, > Paul Guest, Carl Rakosi, Cole Porter, Ray Craig, Bob Holman, Jordan > Stempleman, Gilbert Sorrentino, Larissa Shmailo, Kris Hemensley, Jennifer > Manzano, Peter Culley, Dan Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Lloyd Schwartz, Peter > Larkin, MaryLou Sanelli, Clare Latremouille, Karla Kelsey, Peter Magliocco, > Bruce Stewart, Kyle Simonsen, Glenn Ingersoll, Teri Hoskin, Henry Louis > Gates, John Mcmahon, Dan Raphael, Tanya Allen, Annie Finch, Mitch, Bill > Kushner, Rochita Ruiz, Tom Gilroy, Yashodhara Raychaudhuri, Elaine > Terranova, Tom Hibbard, Joel Nichols, Don Cheney, Ashraf Osman, Melanie > Little, Barbara Cole, Chris Higgs, Paul van Ostaijen, Kate Hill Cantrill, > George Kalamaras, Ren Powell, Steve Smith, Lloyd Mintern, Denise Duhamel, > Veselovsky Pitts, G.L. Ford, Stanton, Kyle Minor, Bradford Haas, Kristy > Bowen, Mingus Tourette, Anna Joy Springer, Laetitia Sonami, Sam Silva, > Candace Kaucher, James Dickey, Kit Kennedy, Jill Jones, Susan Scarlata, Jack > Kimball, Mary-Anne Breeze, Frederico Garcia Lorca, George Kalamaris, Raymond > Hsu, Joshua Arnold, Bernadette Mayer, Calvin Bedient, Rachel Tompa, Nathan > Curnow, Noel Sloboda, Doug Macpherson, Vivien Bittencourt, Steve Roggenbuck, > Jules Boykoff, Jessica Lawless, Raymond Federman, Sandra Miller, Amos > Bronson Alcott, Marina Garcia-Vasquez, Mathew Timmons, Paul Killebrew, Mike > Young, John Tipton, Chad Parenteau, Michelle Cross, Eric Abbott, Hayden > Carruth, Dream Bitches, William James Austin, St. Teresa of Lisieux, Donald > Hall, Karen Weiser, Marty Hebrank, Liberty Heise, Kyle Stich, Charles > Reznikoff, Chris Felver, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Mecca Jamilah Sullivan, > Henry David Thoreau, Frances Driscoll, Leonard Gontarek, Edward Smallfield, > Chris McCreary, Steven Zultanski, Peter Pereira, Marthe Reed, Mackenzie > Carignan, Victor Hugo, Rebecca Gopoian, Ivy Alvarez, Highfill, Harry > Gilonis, Sotere Torregian, Judy Kamilhor, Justin Sirois, Suzanna Gig, Peter > Seaton, Julie Carr, Mazie Louise Montgomery, Sean Reagan, Tennesee Williams, > Anne Kellas, Christopher Nealon, Joan McCracken, Malcolm Phillips, > Christopher Casamassima, Andrew Steinmetz, Tom Sheehan, L.Y. 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McDowell, Samuel Wharton, Leonard Cohen, Kyle Conner, Maxine > Hong Kingston, Stephanie Strickland, Michael Schiavo, Lynne Tillman, Jesus > Manuel Mena Garza, David-Baptiste Chirot, Augustine Porras, Juan J. Morales, > Tim Z. Hernandez, Diane Ward, Donald Marshall, Jack Collom, Paul Lyons, > Megan Kaminski, Chris Fritton, Paul Vermeersch, Aaron Lowinger, Bob > Perelman, Steve Yarbrough, J.H. Prynne, Amy King, Geoffrey Chaucer, Joel > Dailey, Christopher Hennessy, Meghan O'Rourke and Cathy Park Hong, Jennifer > Scappettone, David Hecker, Carl Brush, Joy Hendrickson-Turner, Leny Strobel, > John Timpane, Amanda Watson, Cate Peebles, Danny Snelson, Christopher > Mulrooney, Jaime Anne Earnest, Trina Gaynon, Caleb Puckett, Weyman Chan, > Patricia Dienstfrey, Evelio Rojas, Susan Tichy, Shawn McKinney, Gerald > Bosacker, Joel Kuszai, Norman Lock, Eric Gelsinger, Suzanne Frischkorn, > Gabor Szilasi, Shannon Smith, Peter J. Grieco, Nasra al Adawi, Anna > Moschovakis, Charles Henri Ford, Nicholas Downing, Sharron Proulx-Turner, > Richard Long, Majena Mafe, Timothy Kreiner, Jorge Luis Borges, Lucebert, > Chuck Stebelton, John Sparrow, Victor Hernandez Cruz, Jee Leong Koh, Sophie > Robinson, Carol Mirakove, Susan Stewart, Adalaide Morris, Camille Bacos, > Diane Williams, Robert J. Baumann, Kristi Castro, Don Illich, Holly > Anderson, C.D. Wright, Jerome McGann, Alex Gildzen, Joseph Lease, Allen, > Meagan Wilson, David H. 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Odom, Brandon Brown, Tim Lockridge, Lauren Goodwin > Slaughter, Steve Luxton, Melissa Buzzeo, Aaron Kunin, Anne Haines, William > Carlos Williams, Catherine Daly, Jack Martin, Ocean, Angela Rawlings, > Richard Hell, Monica de la Torre, Ruth Lepson, Trevor Calvert, Donato > Mancini, Diana Adams, Miranda Mellis, Dust Congress Hackmuth, Philip Whalen, > Dan Thomas-Glass, Abigail Licad, Caroline Rothstein, Matt Briggs, Hans Arp, > Patrick F. Durgin, Ashley VanDoorn, George Murray, Gerald Bruns, Richard > Greenfield, Ken Rumble, John Perrault, Soleida Rios, Andrew Schelling, > Robert Marshall, Russell Jaffe, Albert Wendt, Emily Brink, Jennifer > Bartlett, Jeannine Hall Gailey, Mecca Sullivan, Ron Silliman, David Caddy, > Marcel O'Gorman, Lucy Ives, Sarah Browning, Rob Johnson, Michael Magee, Doug > Ireland, Tim Martin, Seth Parker, Yi Sang, Andros Montoya, Allama Prabhu, > Jacob Glatshteyn, Dan Waber, Jim Goar, Michael Kelleher, Michael Peverett, > Patricia Storms, Howard Junker, N. Scott Momaday, Tsuyoshi Yumoto, Peter > Manson, Adam Clay, Sharon Mesmer, Sasha Frere Jones, Ronna Johnson, Murphy, > Edward Williams, Bernard Hoepffner, Kareem Estefan, Lindsay Colahan, John > Stiles, Ed Barrett, Steven Shaviro, Hart Crane, Thad Rutkowski, Paul > Pearson, Jan Pollet, Jon Woodward, Frederick Seidel, Laurie Fuhr, Ku-ualhoa > Meyer Ho'omanawanui, Peter Dale Scott, Pablo Picasso, Jeremy Halinen, Damien > Hirst, Camille PB, Glenna Luschei, Jimmy Chen, Fairfield Porter, Douglas > Coupland, Kismet Al-Hussaini, Kim Hyesoon, Sarah Vap, Carla Harryman, Louise > Landes Levi, Kiran Desai, jUStin!katKO, Carol McCarthy, Michael Estabrook, > Christian Nicholas, Lauren Russell, Biskit Roth, Ron Koertge, Benjamin > Friedlander, Geoff rey Hill, Harold Abramowitz, Allison Carter, Larry > Sawyer, Joanne Underwood, James Sanders, James Wagner, Gyula Illyes, Deborah > Ager, John M. Bennett, Elizabeth Dorbad, Matthew Langley, Amira Baraka, > Adrian Khactu, Aaron Smith, David Christopher LaTerre, Ann Margaret Bogle, > George Evans, F.T. Marinetti, Steve Mueske, Barrett Watten, Chris > Hamilton-Emery, Travis Jay Morgan, Brian Kim Stefans, Julie Doxsee, Jane > Monson, Terrance Diggory, Jeremy McLeod, Len Joy, Carrie Etter, Suzan > Frecon, Malia Jackson, Akilah Oliver, Carrie Katz, Michael Gizzi, Benjamin > Kroh, Michael Koshkin, David McGimpsey, Paul Hegedus, Heather Christle, > Anselm Berrigan, Art Durkee, Marianne Moore, Aleksei Kruchenykh, Tom Wolfe, > Phil Primeau, Nona Caspers, Dominic Fox, Nate Ethier, Michelle Greenblatt, > Julianna McCarthy, Davide Trame, Aaron Vidaver, Alli Warren, Kathleen > Fraser, Paula Bernat Bennett, Jon Rolston, Basil King, Henry Darger, Ray > Hsu, P. 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Anderson, Vic Monchego, Paul Gacioch, Robert Bly, > David Berridge, Sam Pink, Joshua Edwards, Terry Teachout, Andre Breton & > Philippe Soupault, Norman Finkelstein, Else Lasker-Schuler, Louis Aragon, > Rachel Phillips, Christine Surka, Joe Fletcher, John Eberhart, Michele > Belluomini, Yusef Komunyakaa, Sean Bonney, William Neil Scott, Cecilia > Corrigan, Saleh Badrah, Noah Eli Gordon, Rita Dove, Carol Stetser, Marjorie > Welish, Zachary C. Bush, r. a. washington, Christian Bok, Eireene Nealand, > Benjamin Peret, Niall Lucy, Brandon Downing, Geoff Bouvier, Natalie Lyalin, > Joshua Clover, Irving Weiss, Marco Alexandre Oliveira, Georges Perec, > Patrick Dillon, Nathan Ladd, Marina Tsvetayeva, Chris Kerr, Daneen Wardrop, > Ron Suskind, Philip Messinger, Denise Siegel, Justin Katko, Taylor Graham, > Alexis Rotella, Scoplaw, Samuel Amadon, Michelle Detorie, Dr. Niama L. > Williams, Jim Cory, Sarah Sarai, Theodore Worozbyt, David Graham, Judith > Skillman, Ben Doyle, LaTasha N. 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Schultz, Fernando > Pessoa, Roger Mitchell, Carrie Hunter, Tom Clark, Don Share, Terese Svoboda, > John Bloomberg-Rissman, Lynn Xu, Mike Snider, Shafer Hall, Paul Auster, > Hermann Ungar, Raymond Wachter, Arielle Guy, Joe Brainard, Steve Klepetar, > Scott David Herman, Shann Palmer, Marton Koppany, Todd Carlstrom and The > Clamour, William Corbett, Christopher Harter, Nick Montfort, Paul Foster > Johnson, William Freind, Gary Sauer-Thompson, Scott Keeney, Barbara Claire > Freeman, Steven Berlin Johnson, Cecilia Borromeo, Sally Greenhouse, Michael > Crake, G. Ribemont-Dessaignes, Jessi Lee, John Peck, Beatrix Potter, Matthew > Burkett, Michael Leong, H.D., Lisanne Thompson, Jane Nakagawa, Sandra > Simonds, Gillian McCain, Stephen Kirbach, Stephen Vincent, J.P. Donleavy, > Anna Kavan, Birdie Jaworski, Chall Gray, Robyn Art, Thomas Fink, David > Meltzer, Adolf Wolfli, Helen Bridwell, Elizabeth Switaj, Geoffrey Gatza, Jim > Warner, John Keats, Logan Ryan Smith, Ryan Fitzpatrick, William Michaelian, > Jay Snodgrass, George Held, Brooks Johnson, Julie Dill, St. Teresa of Avila, > Alan Sondheim, Robert Kelly, Ted Burke, Brandon Barr, Donna Strickland, > Diane di Prima, Alan Michael Parker, Jefferson Toal, Geoff Hlibchuk, Kit > Robinson, Christian Nagler, William Blake, J.P. Craig, Berenice Dunford, > Michael Harris, JF Quackenbush, Helen Losse, Matt Mullins, Caterina Fake, > Matthew Siegel, Julie Patton, Siel, Kristine Leja, Aryanil Mukherjee, > Nathaniel Siegel, Kevin Connolly, Philip Levine, Hilda Doolittle (H.D.), > Michael Peters, Roger Singer, Carol Jenkins, Gabriela  Erandi Rico, Craig > Perez, AE Reiff, Gelett Burgess, Thurston Moore, Sam Byfield, Angela Vogel, > Bruce Weber, Steve Tills, Mary Askin-Jencsik, Endre Farkas, Tony Trigilio, > Angela Carr, Slater Brown, Toby Olson, K.Silem Mohammad, Elizabeth Bishop, > Andrea Zemel, Sean Hill, Ilya Bernstein, Neil Gaiman, Paul Valery, Jaap > Blonk, Kim Addonizio, David Thornbrugh, Bern Porter, Megan Milks, Cedar > Sigo, Ted Kooser, Miia Toivio, Alena Hairston/elen gebreab, Unica Zuern, > Peter Cook, Mike Hauser, Julia Bloch, Charles Stross, Shin Yu Pai, Mikey > Golightly, Zhang Er, Paula Grenside, Richard Deming, Linda Russo, Nadia > Halim, Geoffrey Hendricks, Kathy Lou Schultz, Stephen Cope, David Hernandez, > Cole Swensen, Bill Walsh, Pirooz M. Kalayeh, Mara Vahratian, Ange Mlinko, > Afroza Soma, Rupert Mallin, The Leader, Etel Adnan, Jennifer Cooke, Mark > Granier, Lamont Steptoe, Amina Cain, Geof Huth, Patrick Frank, Giuseppe > Ungaretti, Megan Volpert, Charlotte Runcie, Susan Howe, Gene Justice, > Matthew Lafferty, Patrick Kurp, Barbara Jane Reyes, Iris Jamahl Dunkle, Amy > L. Sargent, Nathalie Stephens, Andrew Johnston, Prabhakar Vasan, Nathaniel > Mackey, Abhijit Mitra, Ben Mazer, Thomas Fucaloro, Dr. Jacob Edmond, Yu > Jian, Ted Pearson, Linh Dinh, Stephen Nelson, Kenneth Patchen, Robert von > Hallberg, Andrew Hughes, Chris Gullo, Shanna Compton, May Pang, Cristiana > Baik, Allen Mozek, Fielding Dawson, Stephen Rosenthal, Stefan Brecht, Donald > Justice, Stan Apps, Shelley Powers, Stephen Vincent Benet, Maya Angelou, > Wade Fletcher, Juliana Leslie, Anny Ballardini, John Yau, Bob Kerr, Michael > Helsem, Charles Belbin, Jane Jortiz-Nakagawa, John Tyson/Kelly Conway, > Teresa K. Miller, Emily XYZ, Jeff Harrison, John P. McNamee, Michelle > Taransky, Gertrude Stein, Jen Welch, Doug Hofstadter, Edgar Lee Masters, > Andrey Bely, sTEVEN p. rOGGENBUCK, Ed Dorn, Gary Sullivan, Greg Perry, Susan > Allspaw Pomeroy, Jim Kober, Bobby Byrd, John Sullivan, Charles Johnson, John > Byrum, Charles Simic, Baron Wormser, Scott Pierce, Ada Limon, Kris Waldherr, > Tom O’Connor, Christina Mengert, Danielle Pafunda, Gary Lutz, David > Christensen, Anyssa Kim, Joshua Trott, Zachary Schomburg, Christopher > Salerno, Christophe Casamassima, Emily Critchley, Dorothea Lasky, Chris > Glomski, Matt Shears, Damian Weber, Justin Marks, Brooke Kaye, Frank > Etienne, Judith Jordan, Sam Dillon, Bill Knott, Mara Leigh, Anselem > Berrigan, Jeff Bacon, Clifford Odets, JeffreyJoe Nelson, Della Watson, > Christiana Langenberg, Robert Peake, cris cheek, Morris Cox, Richard > Kostelanetz, Wanda Phipps, Hugo Ball, Kristin Prevallet, Norman Weinstein, > Lacey Hunter, Gerald Hausman, Rachel Oliver, Ray McNiece, Bill Dorn, > Catullus, Monique Trottier, Joshua Ware, e.e. cummings, Garrett Hongo, Bill > Lavender, John Cleary, Sharon Harris, Divya Victor, Jack Spicer, Kate > Armstrong, Karl Young, Chad Sweeney, David Solway, Wanda O'Connor, Mahmoud > Darwish, Joanne Tracy, Sheila, Amanda Cook, Hugh Nissensen, Sean M. Dalpiaz, > Edna St. Vincent, Caroline Bergvall, Lawrence Giffin, Rob Halpern, Dana > Gioia, Daniel Bradley, David Kaufmann, Robert Lowell, kari edwards, Rosanna > Lee, Allen Fisher, Stacy Szymaszek, Matt Theado, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Billy > Mills, Andy Gricevich, The Philly Sound, Ruel S. De Vera, Trudi West, Daniel > C. Remein, Hillary Gravendyk, Mary Burger, Insani Kamil, Guillermo Parra, > Ryan Daley, Jessica Schneider, Carol Novack : Playpoem MP3, Jesse Ferguson, > Mark Bernstein, KB Jones, Laura Marks, Kent Freeman, Sara Blakeman, Rodrigo > Toscano, Sabyasachi Nag, Budd Parr, Peggy Willis Lyles, Keston Sutherland, > Simon DeDeo, Marcus Slease, Emily Crocker, Donald Illich, John Sakkis, > Andrew Sage, Joseph Harrington, Adrienne Rich, Tad Richards, Mick Rock, > Sabina Murray, Michael Friedman, J.V. Foix, Michael McClintock, Dennis > Nurkse, Andrew Shields, Susan Bee, Jacques Gaffarel, Paul Rigolle, William > Keckler, Evan J. Peterson, Geoffrey Demarquet, Ariana Reines, Richard > Wilbur, Kim Chinquee, Jerome Rothenberg, Laura Carter, Mark Strand, Nicholas > Manning, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Donna Stonecipher, Girish Shambu, Gerald > Schwartz, Catherine Taylor, Rachel Levitsky, Michelle Tupko, Chris Corrigan, > Jim McKay, Joel Craig, Jacqueline Risset, Marcus Civin, Melvin Tolson, Lance > Anderson, Sampson Starkweather, Peter Carey, Chris Murray, Dorianne Laux, > Fiona Templeton, Kimberly Lyons, Claudia Carlson, Aaron Belz, Bill Zavatsky, > Adam Strauss, Curtis Gale Weeks, Jeremiah Bowen, Bill Piety, Jane > Hirshfield, mark s kuhar, Brendan Kreitler, Kim Bernstein, Frances Kruk, > Margaret Ronda, Chris Piuma, Gina Franco, Anne Boyer, Claire McMahon, Jason > Zuzga, Sharon Lynn Osmond, Pirooz Kalayeh, Robert Calero, Laura Jaramillo, > Bryan Newbury, Steve Schroeder, St. Catherine of Siena, Anna Akhmatova, > Edith Sitwell, Eduardo C. Corral, Megan Burns, Dan Hoy, Walt Whitman, Nic > Sebastian, Elizabeth Treadwell, John Phillips, Michael Haeflinger, Karen, C > Mehrl Bennett, Michael Hays Sanchez, Henry Edwards, Jeremy James Thompson, > Jeffrey Ethan, Lisa Lorenz, Sukhdev Sandhu, Norma Cole, Courtney Rydel, Nina > Svenne, Robert Zaller, Kirby Olson, Frank Wilson, Changming Yuan, Justin > Audia, Janet Holmes, Federico Garcia Lorca, Jon Christensen, C.J. Martin, > Matt Rasmussen, Norman Fischer, Bill Day, Mervyn Peake, Yvonne Jacquette, > Nathan Logan, Urdu Poetry, Tony Towle, Leslie Kaplan, Philip Nikolayev, > Sarah Gridley, Naomi Shihab Nye, Stephen Paul Miller, Mark Van Doren, Bonnie > Jean Michalski, T.R. Wang, Eric Rosenfield, Mark Woods, R. Nemo Hill, > Cynthia Lawson, Harry Rutherford, Deborah Patillo, Mark Bibbins, Novica > Tadic, Hank O'Neal, Denise Low, Caroline Whitbeck, Hugh Behm-Steinberg, > Serena Jost, Elizabeth Marie Young, Reg E. Gaines, Cole Swenson, Kevin > Kilroy, Kaia Sand, Harryette Mullen, Charles Deemer, Alan Tucker, Eileen > Myles, Meg Foulkes, Martha Ronk, Gil Fagian, Nick Piombino, Betsy Fagin, > Anne Germanacos, Alex Cumberbatch, Kenneth Goldsmith, Debby Florence, Bin > Ramke, Kariann Burleson, Amy Berkowitz, Liz Waldner, T.A. Noonan, Steven > Karl, Francis Ponge, Angela Genusa, F.A. Nettelbeck, Becca Klaver, Andrew > Koszewski, Chelsea Hotel, J.P. Rangaswami, Guile Canencia, Carol Snow, > Alysha Wood, Jen Hofer, Greg Mulcahy, Lynne Dreyer, Andrew Feindt, Carlos > Drummond de Andrade, Susanna Kittredge, Jason Fraley, Nicholas Messenger, > Raymond Filip, Mitch Highfill, Ian Tyson, Lisa Fishman, Gloria Frym, St. > John Perse, Robin Purves, Peter Davis, Alison Knowles, Russell Edson, Collin > Kelley, Nashi, Jim Dine, Marie Ponsot, Joseph Ceravolo, Jorie Graham, > Barbara Guest, Onishi Yasuyo, Matthew Henriksen, Kent Johnson, Eric > Bogosian, Craig Shaffer, Hoa Nguyen, Zolt√°n Hom√°lyos, Marcella Durand, > Afaa Michael Weaver, CAConrad, Eddie Watkins, Jeanne Marie Beaumont, Beth > Joselow, David A. Kirschenbaum, Brandon Shimoda, Richard Taylor, H.T. > Harrison, Wolfi Landstreicher, Robert Wilson, Andrew Topel, Juliana Spahr, > John Levy, Stuart Ross, William Jay Smith, Jane Holland, Martin Edmond, > Aldon Lynn Nielsen, Nikolai Gumilov, Billy Jno Hope, David Patton, Brian > VanRemmen, Didi Menendez, Nico Alvarado-Greenwood, Danielle Pafunda, Pam > Brown, Alexander Pope, Loss Pequeno Glazier, Jordan Scott, Will Edmiston, > Robert Allen, Carly Sachs, Rick Burkhardt, Tisa Bryant, Alison Shaffer, > Peter Norman, Roger Dean, Justin Evans, Jan Manzwotz, Don Wentworth, Tim > Carmody, Guenter Grass, Ricardo Bracho, Erica Hunt, Robert Service, > Katherine Hastings, James Finnegan, Elaine Equi, Clancy Ratliff, Mark Tardi, > ee miller, Kara Hearn, Dax Bayard-Murray, Chris Kraus, Marita Dachsel, > Redell Olsen, MaryAnn McCarra-Fitzpatrick, Tom Leonard, Wendy Wisner, Jean > Roelke, Laura Sells, Donna Kuhn, Wen Yiduo, Erika Mikkalo, Tristan Tzara, > Evie Shockley, Sarah Louise Parry, John Dos Passos, Doc Reese, Bob Dylan, > Jennifer Montgomery, Lisa Samuels, Nin Andrews, Susan Gevirtz, Karen Mac > Cormack, Roger Pao, Wang Ping, Samuel R. Delany, Andy Clausen, Barry > Schawbsky, Mary Oliver, Deborah Meadows, Eve Rifkah, Reed Altemus, Alexei > Remizov, Christopher Warrington, Bennett/Baron, Bill White, Franco > Beltrametti, Joseph Massey, Stephen Mitchelmore, Jason Gray, Rod Smith, > Tommi Avicolli Mecca, Richard Bank, Lorenzo Thomas, Matt Hart, Eric > Weiskott, Benito Vergara, J.D. Mitchell-Lumsden, Gerard Sarnat, January > O'Neill, Miles Budimir, Christopher Kelen, Julie Carter, Tim Peterson, Rusty > Morrison, Jay Rosevear, Jeremy Bushnell, Tomas S. Butkus, Katoh Ikuya, Lin > Kelsey, Joan Larkin, Wystan Curnow, Alessandro Porco, Brian Seabolt, Summi > Kaipa, Elizabeth Zechel, Thomas Lowe Taylor, Derek Walcott, Carla Milo, > Nelly Sachs, Pattie Cowell, Mark Young, Sam Witt, Jed Rasula, Elizabeth > Willis, Pamela Lawton, Sandra Seekins, Dave Lovely, Christopher Sindt, > Jennifer Rogers, Ben Lerner, Richard Johnny John, Denton Welch, Andre > Breton, Peli Grietzer, Erik Sapin, Jonathan Doherty, Michaela Cooper, Cathy > Park Hong, Jake Berry, Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, Julie Choffel, Alan de > Niro, Katie Cappello, F.J. Bergmann, Robert Doto, Zackary Sholem Berger, > Nina Alvarez, Katie Haegele, Elizabeth Block, Theo van Doesburg, Jon > Frankel, Andrew Lundwall, Lily Brown, Ken Belford, Lisa Robertson, Chris > Pusateri, Patrick Chapman, David Daniels, Maurice Blanchot, Georg Trakl, > Frank Simone, Tony Barnstone, Thomas A. Clark, John Tranter, Dale Smith, > James Tate, Joel Lewis, James Schiller, Dylan Kinnett, Richard Gilbert, > George Economou, Tony Trehy, Tammy Ho Lai-Ming, Ophelia Mourne, Harlan > Erskine, Melissa Benham, Kahlil Gibran, Jen Tynes, Hannah Craig, A.M. > Correa, Katie Acheson, Nazim Hikmet, Brian Lucas, Louis Cabri, Maggie > Dubris, Richard Bank, Alan Loney, Stephanie Countiss Emens, Erin Pringle, > Anthony Metivier, Marie Buck, Zachary Chartkoff, Jan Oskar Hansen, Michael > Jarrett, James Cook, Philip Metres, Jon Paul Fiorentino, Vachel Lindsay, > Michael Scharf, o. hunt, Ann M. Fine, Alfred Jarry, John Wood, Robert > Desnos, Michael Gause, Danielle Dutton, Jonathan Jones, Eric Mottram, Mary > Jo Bang, John Deming, D. Antwan Stewart, Hugh MacDiarmid, Rob, Eleanor > Wilner, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Scott Hartwich, Four Horsemen, Gregory Betts, > Bill Berkson, Laurel Ransom, George Schneeman, Kristy Odelius, Lisa Cohen, > Sina Queyras, Eric Baus, Angela Vasquez-Giroux, David Miller, MaryAnn > McCarra Fitzpatrick, D.A. Powell, Julia Story, Andrea Lawlor, Jane Falk, > Matthew G. Kirschenbaum, Ellen Baxt, Gisele Prassinos, Ruth Taylor, Laura > Harper, artie gold, Jeni Olin, Sergei Gandlevsky, Lila Zemborain, Tony Tost, > Juan Jose Flores, Brian Mihok, Tan Lin, Sarojini Sahoo, Paul Siegell, Nicole > Mauro, Caroline Conway, Merrill Gillfillan, Geoffrey, Philip Rowland, > Jonathan Evison, Ira Joel Haber, Melissa Pakalinsky, Susan Kaiser Greenland, > Daniel Bailey, Jenny Boully, Djuna Barnes, David Wolach, Nick Twemlow, > Rodney Koeneke, Cheryl Snell, Jennifer K. Dick, Reggie Harris, Peter > Ganickz, Sheila Murphy, Aimee Nezhukumatathil, Greg Rappleye, Alasdair Gray, > Len Shneyder, Zack Linmark, John Seed, Paul Ford, Rachel Mallino, Jan > Bindas-Tenney, Tim Botta, The Pines, Ecce Mulier, Kenneth Goldsmith, Daniel > Pritchard, R. Zamora Linmark, Karen Wagner, Camille Roy, Steven Gould > Axelrod, Vassilis Zambaras, James Bow, Steve Roberts, Ron Padgett, Jason > Labbe, Donora Hillard, Larry Kearney, Kristen Orser, Ed Ruscha, Louise > Waller, Sherri Wood, Miriam Jones, Steven Moore, Robert Hershon, Patry > Francis, Dave Cook, Sara Veglahn, Alfred Leslie, Henri Michaux, C.K. > Williams, Doc Searls, Lars Amund Vaage, Rae Armantrout, Rodrigo Flores, > Allen Bramhall, Rigoberto Gonzales and Katha Pollitt, Anatol Stern, Sina > Fazelpour, Sarith Peou, Harold Jaffe, L.L. De Mars, Peggy Kelley, Sara > Marcus, David Applegate, Lisa Janssen, Jim Moore, Edmond Jabes, Ruth, Wei > Ying-Wu, India Radfar, Matthew Cooperman, David Dowker, Laird Hunt, Mina > Loy, Erin Bertram, Will Alexander, J. F. Quackenbush, John Gallaher, Robert > Ashley, Benjamin Paloff, Andrew Neuendorf, Kusano Shimpei, Dion Farquhar, > Lisa, Emily Gordon, Karen Plata, Dinah Roma, Doug Lang, Claire Becker, Caryl > Pagel, Walter Mosley, Stephanie Stickland, Frank Sherlock, Justin Dodd, > Katina Papson, Daniel Zimmerman, Keith Waldrop, Douglas Manson, Charles > Olson, Bill Peschel, Franklin Bruno, Nathan Hauke, Paul Hoover, William > Moor, C. Harris Stevens, Walter Abish, Amy Lemmon, Claude Royet-Journoud, > John Keene, Aaron Armstrong Skomra, Jordan Sanderson, Reg Johanson, Peter > Yovu, Daniel Pendergrass, John Beer, Justin Lacour, Jennifer Moxley, Nathan > Lang, Hazel Smith, Iamnasra Oman, pr primeau, Sheryl Luna, Jonathan Ball, > Terry Southern, Christian Peet, Pierre Joris, Oana Avasilichioaei, Arunta, > Deanna Ferguson, Tom Phillips, Susan Schultz, Jason Camlot, David > Kirschenbaum, Gail Mazur, Jack Hughes, Zack Finch, J.H.Prynne, Rebecca > Loudon, Scott Inguito, Esmail Yazdanpour, Naftali Bacharach, Jennifer > Osborne, Sylvia Plath, Richard Lopez, Sandy Baldwin, Kirsten Lavers, Andrew > Christ, Ann Lauterbach, Shelly Taylor, Nicole Peyrafitte, Jessica Savitz, > Sam Golden Rule Jones, K. Silem Mohammad, Lionel Kearns, Lili Bita, Aime > Cesaire, R W Sturgess, James Moran, Mike Topp, Dan Featherston, Chris > Daniels, Gregory Botts, Nicole Oquendo, Thomas Devaney, Randall, Keith > Shein, William Harris, Rik Roots, Patricia Carragon and Andy Comess, > Alejandro Tarrab, Matthew Shindell, Eric Gamalinda, Amy Bernier, Spencer > Selby, Simone Muench, Piombino, Michelle Buchanan, David Lehman, Jonathan > Skinner, Sandra Beasley, Patricia Spears Jones, Hal Saulson, Laura Riding, > Taylor Mali, Nam June Paik, W.B. Yeats, Peter Reading, Graham Foust, Brenda > Coultas, Emily Lloyd, Ed Skoog, D.G. Jones, Vicente Huidobro, Jared > Schickling, Peter Sacks, Kate Pringle, Rita Wong, Laila Lalami, Nancy > Friedman, Franz Kafka, Robert Hellam, Brian Campbell, Danny Fields, Mario > Cafiero, Peter Ciccariello, Cat Tyc, Nate Pritts, Andrea Brady, Andy Frazee, > Felino Soriano, Clair Becker, Soumana Dasgupta, Jill Riga, David Raphael > Israel, Stacey Levine, Mike Magee, Tim Yu, Cesar Vallejo, Isidore Ducasse, > Amanda Earl, Romina Freschi, Alan Halsey, Daniel f. Bradley, Charles > Rossiter, Noelle Kocot, Jayne Pupek, Aldous Huxley, Deborah Fries, Alani > Apio, Jessica Smith, Christopher Barnes, Rick Snyder, Sarah Lang, Emily > Dickinson, Cecilia Ann, bpNichol, Susanna Fry, Gerard Manley Hopkins, > Charles Borkhuis, Herman Beavers, Stephanie Skura, Jessica Bennett, Steve > Carey, Madeline Gins, Thom Donovan, Chuck Perrin, Luci Tapahonso, Mei-Mei > Berssenbrugge, Ira Cohen, Marko J. Niemi, Ray Davis, Nancy Gandhi, Dee > Rimbaud, Mary O'Malley, Evie Ivie, Pamela Mack, Lawrence Lessig, Allyssa > Wolf, and Snezana Zabic. > > Brought to you by forgodot.com. > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:53:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit geez, i'm such an idiot; instead of "for Godot," i read "forgo DOT," as in forgo@xxx.edu. like fargo, but doing without. Larissa Shmailo wrote: > > > Anthology aside, what a search engine optimization technique this is for a > blog. For Godot and its editors have gone viral overnight. > > The whole thing is wonderful fun, exactly what poetry needs once in a while, > some playful ribbing. I'm even getting used to "my" poem (a little). > > Larissa Shmailo (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) > "The poet, like the lover, is a menace on the assembly line." > -Rollo May > Listen to Exorcism on iTunes or at: > _http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2_ (http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2) > _http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism_ > (http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism) > > > > > > > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:59:20 -0400 Reply-To: afilreis@writing.upenn.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Organization: University of Pennsylvania Subject: Rachel Levitsky, CPCW Fellow in Poetics & Poetic Practice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear friends & colleagues: I'm very pleased to announce that this year's CPCW Fellow in Poetics & Poetic Practice is *Rachel Levitsky*. She will teach a seminar called "Writing Practice of the Avant-Garde or: Avant-Garde Hybrid Writing" and at the Kelly Writers House will host the visits of several writers associated with the course. Rachel Levitsky's first full-length volume, /Under the Sun/, was published by Futurepoem books in 2003. She is the author of five chapbooks of poetry, /Dearly/ (a+bend), /Dearly 356/, /Cartographies of Error/ (Leroy), /The Adventures of Yaya and Grace/ (PotesPoets) and /2(1x1)Portraits/ (Baksun). Levitsky also writes poetry plays, three of which (one with Camille Roy) have been performed in New York and San Francisco. Levitsky's work has been published in magazines such as /Sentence, Fence, The Brooklyn Rail, Global City, The Hat, Skanky Possum, Lungfull!/ and in the anthology, /19 Lines: A Drawing Center Writing Anthology/. She founded Belladonna--an event and publication series for avant-garde poetics--in August 1999. A past fellow of The McDowell Colony and Lower Manhattan Community Council, she teaches at Pratt Institute and lives steps away from The Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. Previous CPCW Fellows: Tracie Morris, Linh Dinh, Erica Hunt, and Kenneth Goldsmith. For much more: http://writing.upenn.edu/projects/poeticsfellow.php - Al Filreis -- Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 00:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Pickard in Maine Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tom Pickard with Stephen Petroff at the Old Goat in Richmond, Maine 5:30 pm Sunday 5th October (reading sponsored by Gulf of Maine Bookstore) at Bates College Lewiston, Maine in the Skelton Lounge (Chase Hall) 4:15 pm Tuesday 7th October for The New Writing Series University of Maine, Orono in the Minsky Recital Hall 8 pm Wednesday 8th October Free and open to all ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:21:56 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <177392.13040.qm@web65103.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 My initial response to being "included" in this was to ask to be removed. = I've changed my mind. I've only read a dozen or so poems in this=2C in addition to the one attrib= uted to me. I have to say that I like these poems. Okay=2C what I've read= (so far) is only a nanofraction=3B still=2C I'm surprised that I don't fin= d more fault in them=2C even given that minuscule percentage. I have two thoughts on this. First=2C this has to be the work of a single = author=97 by which I mean a single individual or like-minded team=2C workin= g with the aid of technology (or perhaps one of Jack Spicer's Martians=2C w= ho gets no sleep). My second thought is that I agree with whoever said tha= t the most likely culprit is Kenneth Goldsmith. Kudos then=2C somewhat grudgingly=2C to the perpetrator or perpetrators. Mark DuCharme ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat=2C 4 Oct 2008 01:32:31 -0700 > From: b.schwabsky@BTOPENWORLD.COM > Subject: fake anthology > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > =20 > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_anth= o.html >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie= . http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 23:36:50 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Strange, the formal, is it a salutation? on such a public= Dear Dave,=0A=0AStrange, the formal, is it a salutation? on=A0such a public= space. & be warned, my spell check isn't working, not that I remember to u= se it often, not good, no, not at all good enough, and I wish I had somethi= ng to add about Bolano, but he's still on my 2 read list. As for translatio= ns, I was suprised when Bernard Levy went on an extended riff about the Ame= rican crime novelist James Ellroy in "American Vertigo." This wouldn't happ= en in the States. Writers such as Ellroy or your favorite, Jim Thompson, ar= en't fully appreciated in the States. & I'm also bereft of any language oth= er than English. Which means I MUST trust the translator. What I'd give to = be able to read Dante in Italian, Rilke in German, or Villon in French. Sti= ll, this is America,=A0 we're supposed to be charmed by the likes of Sarah = Palin also, don't you know, you should doggonit I do 2 and WHAT a great cou= ntry it is don't you Forget=A0I know you've been to France and lots of othe= r places, hey I'm ok with that -- it gets hard to understand our native speakers som= etimes, know what I'm saying? You've clearly given this matter more thought= than I have. I've taken it as a given for some time that America is, if no= t afraid of the other, at least suspicious of anything percieved as alien. = & English is, I think, the most spoken language on the globe. Perhaps this = will change as the dollar falls into whatever abyss awaits it. Your take is= far more complex than anything I have to say on the matter, however. Which= is why I'm going to have to read your post again and give it more thought.= Take care.=0A=0A=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: David C= hirot =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: T= hursday, October 2, 2008 12:41:18 PM=0ASubject: Re: Nobel literature head: = US too insular to compete=0A=0A=0A=0Athink you can see from my letter that = I agree with the Capo di Capi at the=0ANobel; I simply extended his range f= rom Europe to the rest of the world.=0A=0ASomething which has interested me= for some time ands=0Awhy it is that Savage Detectives is the one Bolano bo= ok that is always=0Amentioned by Americans, when several other, and better,= of his works are=0Aavaialble in translation from New Directions. I have a = feeling that works=0Asuch as By Night in Chile, usually conisdered his mast= erpiece, especially in=0Aterms of the writing, Distant Star and Nazi Litera= ture of the Americas have=0Areceived less attetion, as have Amulet, also ab= out Meixco, the events of=0A1968 and many of the young poets who show up in= Savage Detectives, and Last=0AEvenings on Earth, a collection of excellent= short stories. The first three=0Anamed, especailly, are profound explorast= ions of the connections between=0Amodern poetry--and in Distant Star's case= , multi-media poetry--and Fascism,=0Atorture and violence.=A0 Since the By = Night in Chile and Distant Star (itself=0Aa novella developed from the last= entry in the Nazi Literature book, the=0Abest seeling of Bolano's works in= Latin America) are centered around the=0Aevents of 9/11/73 in Chile, and i= nclude written and unwritten allusion to=0Athe American inolvement in these= events and their aftermath, perhaps readers=0Ain the USA prefer to ignore = them for the youth-notalgia of Savage=0ADetectives, which excludes the sini= ster aspects of the times.=0A=0AThe house which figures in the final scenes= of By Night in Chile is being=0Aconsidered to be made a museum today in Ch= ile, for in it a novelist and her=0AAmerican husband held the most glitteri= ng literary salon of the Pinochet=0AEra, attended by many of the cream of l= iterary-critical establishment who=0Afelt themselves above the coup.=A0 It = turned out that the American husband was=0Aan American agent in chrage of t= ortures in the basement underneath the=0Aliterary salon, and the Chilean wi= fe later found herself and their children=0Aabandoned by him, when he sough= t refuge somehwere in the USA.=A0 The long arm=0Aof this nightmare period e= xtends to several of the exiled Chilean and Latin=0AAmerican writers and fr= iends in the stories of Last Evenings on Earth.=0A=0AThe current events in = Central and Latin America are part of a huge movement=0Ato push out for goo= d the influence and oppression of the US, to rid the=0Aregion of the econom= ic policies which are now catching up to the Anmericans=0Athemselves, and t= o say good riddance for ever to the Monroe Doctrine, a=0ADoctrine which eve= n Obama re-embraced during the campaign earlier this=0Ayear.=A0 There is al= so the question of the Inidegenous, which threatens the US=0Ain the form of= the president of Bolivia, Morales, who is an Indian and the=0Afirst Indige= nous person elected the head of a country anywhere in the=0Aworld.=A0 The U= SA refused to sin the International Recognition of Rights of=0AIndigenous P= eoples, which means that its own Indians remain as a population=0Awithout t= he same rights as the rest of the people.=0A=0AI wonder if another roadbloc= k to translation is the discouragement towards=0Aother languages which is s= o marked in the US--that "why should we learn=0Atheir languages when everyb= ody learns English anyaway," and the continual=0Aattempts to make English t= he official language.=A0 =A0 Immigrants who arrived=0Awere supposed to assi= milate into the new language, and their children to=0Aneglect the language = of their parents.=A0 Eventually this became a form of=0Atraveling away from= foreign languages as much as possible in all areas of=0Athe society, thoug= h the immigrants continue to arrive.=A0 Perhaps "foreign=0Alanguages" are c= onnected in a subconsious way with the "non-American"=0Apre-American exitse= nce of the ancestors, which needs to be "buried" as it=0Awere.=A0 After all= , one finds a great many Americans who rant about the "evil=0AEuropens" who= arrived and sluaghtered the Indians and destroyed the=0Aenvirnoment--and y= et those same "evil Europeans" were the forebearers of the=0AAmericans of t= oday.=A0 It is as though the forebearers and their languages are=0Ainsome w= ay not at all related to the Americans of the present, who rage=0Aabout the= evils of the Western Civilization in the Western hemisphere, via=0Athe ten= ets of Western philosphy and ethics.=A0 A disconnect with the past is=0Acre= ated in which the enlgithened present carries onas though perhaps=0Apurifie= d of the past, and so does not connect it in anyway with the actions=0Aof t= he present. If one is afarid of foreigness and the past, is one not then=0A= locked into an insularity in space and time, in which what is demanded is a= n=0Aendless imperial expansion as a continual sign of "triumph" and "rightn= ess"?=0A=0AIt may seem paradoxical to be insualr and at the ame time on Imp= erilaist=0Arampages--yet all one has to do is mobilize the insularity, so t= hat its=0Aencounters with the foreign aboard are in terms of "new land and = peoples to=0Aconquer."=A0 That is, to destory for the most part, so they ar= e not in fact=0Aactual people but "foriegners," "aliens and "their value of= life is inferiro=0Ato ours."=A0 The same rhetoric runs throughout American= history, from the=0Anon-human Indian to the "let Asian boys fight Asians W= ars" becuase "they=0Adon't value life as highly as we do" of Vietnam to the= same thing todayy=0Aregrading Palestinains, Irqis, Iranins, Pakistanis, Af= ghans, Pashtun,=0Awhoever the guns are trained on next.=A0 "Illegal aliens"= with in the US" are=0Atreated in the same manner, as are an ever growing n= umber of Americans=0Aovercrowding the American prison system.=0A=0AThe inte= sne insanity greeting the "Bailout" is the same that greeted=0A"foreign att= acks" on 9/11 and led to the "immediate danger and urgency" of=0Athe "swift= ly victoris wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq, where the Americans=0Awere to be= greeted with floers and crowds asking for bubble gum with cards=0Aof the c= onquering heroes.=A0 "We are being attacked!" the Senators and=0ACongresspe= rsons and Paulson are all screaming--the Bailout has to right=0Anow!!=A0 It= 's as though some "alien entity" has invaded the otherwise noble=0Aand righ= teous American sytem and immediate and extreme actions have to be=0Ataken, = following which Paulson will pretty much be respsonable to no one but=0Ahim= self.=A0 A coup will have taklen place that was voted on with al the=0Areas= oning involved in going completely hysterically hallucinatorilly mad.=0A=0A= The "fear of the foreign" oddly begn with the first sights of the new World= =0Aand its indigenous peoples--=0A=0A(Actually Stepeh, Mishima never won th= e Nobel Prize; the year that he=0Athought that he might, his fellow country= man Kawabata Yasunari won, a great=0Awriter considered in Japan more Jpanes= e than Mishima, who despite his=0ANationalism and wanting to return to the = militarism of the Japanese past,=0Awas regarded as being much more Western = influenced than Kawabata.=A0 In=0AMishima's Sun and Steel, the original bir= th of his ideas of the beautiful=0Abody occurred during a trip to Greece, a= nd were truly awakened by the sight=0Aof the young men in a fesitavl on his= return to japan.=A0 The Literal=0A"trajectory" of his thinking on ":sun an= d steel" finds its ultimate=0Aexpression in a short piece following the tex= t, in which he recounts his=0Aascent in a fighter plane.=A0 This extraordin= ary combination of mysticism,=0Amilitarism and the body-militant turnsinto = the kind of aestheticized poetry=0Aof pure speed as pure being of a Futuris= t Fascism which Marinetti never even=0Adreamed of.=0A=0AIn Mishima's novel = Forbidden Colors, the protagaonist is a man so beautiful=0Athat when making= love with is beautiful wife, he sees himself watching=0Ahimself making lov= e to himself, rather than with her. Mishima's writing and=0Aworks in film t= race the arc of this intenisification of desire for physical=0Aand youthful= male beauty with that of the warrior at the moment of death, in=0Athe serr= vice of an ideal higher than his own flesh--that of the Emperor,=0Asymbol o= f a Deity of a Nationalsim which is really Mishima's cult of the=0Ahero Mis= hima, saving the Nation , failing and dying the great and most=0Ahonorbale = of deaths.=A0 It is an incredoible and long prpepared for moment of=0Atheat= er as action which he had "rehearsed for" in the film almost a decde=0Aearl= ier in which he commits with his wife a ritual sepuuku.=A0 The apotheosis= =0Aof male auto- eroticism, the fascistic aesthetisization of the body mili= tant=0Awhich becomes at one with a jet fighter, at one with the Emperor, at= one=0Awith the Japan of the samuruai and at one with death--Mishima carrie= d al=0Athis out literally "to the hilt."=A0 And also wrote of it in a way t= hat goes=0Abeyond even the most elbaorate of the e texts in Klaus Theweleit= 's=0Amonumental masterpiece, the two volume Male Fantasies.=0A=0AOn the mor= ning of his final day, Mishima wrote the last pages of his great=0Atetraolo= gy, titlted ironically after that place on the Moon called "The Sea=0Aof Fe= rtility."=A0 The name of the book is "The Decay of the Angel" and it as=0As= ome of Mishima's most beaitufl writing in it, and its ending is "perfectly= =0Astaged" as it were for the words and scene that are to be the author's l= ast.=0A=0AOn Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Douglas Manson wrote:=0A=0A> David,=0A> While the Nobel committee's remarks seem a bi= t provocative, I tend to agree=0A> with them.=A0 Maybe they were asked to c= onsider American authors for the=0A> award, prompted by those who may think= America is beginning to feel left=0A> out, since there hasn't been a liter= ature laureate here for over 15 years.=0A> Their perception might be accura= te, as I too think there is a dearth of=0A> translation, that we aren't wid= ely encouraged to read translations, and=0A> that=0A> those which do get pu= blished are poorly distributed or rarely discussed.=A0 I=0A> won't even try= to account for the plummeting of reading practices among=0A> U.S.=0A> citi= zens under 30, but it seems to be at an epidemic stage right now.=0A>=A0 Th= ere=0A> is also a damaging lack of large-scale commitments to serious trans= lation=0A> projects, projects that should be a priority in our literary cul= ture.=A0 This=0A> also comes with a widespread absence of second-language i= nstruction in our=0A> grammar schools.=A0 On top of all this, the literary-= critical community has=0A> been shying away from ideas of a "national" lite= rature for some decades.=0A> This must play a role in the perception of "in= sularity" in American=0A> literature, even if it seems counterintuitive:=A0= it might just be the=0A> defining characteristic of American literature to= day that there is an=0A> almost=0A> unanimous agreement among authors and c= ritics that it lacks any defining=0A> characteristics.=A0 Maybe we are insu= lar in that we don't have enough=0A> critical=0A> distance to even help dev= elop a useful picture of ourselves.=A0 And why does=0A> Roberto Bolano's _S= avage Detectives_ seem like the best American novel of=0A> the past 20 year= s to me?=0A>=0A> As for the "explosive" best sellers: I am reminded of a re= mark made by=0A> Christopher Morley of the Algonquin Roundtable, belle-lett= rist of the=0A> "Knothole" hermitage in Nassau County:=0A>=0A> "Printer's i= nk has been running a race against gunpowder these many, many=0A> years.=A0= Ink is handicapped, in a way, because you can blow up a man with=0A> gunpo= wder in half a second, while it may take twenty years to blow him up=0A> wi= th a book.=A0 But the gunpowder destroys itself along with its victim,=0A> = while=0A> a book can keep on exploding for centuries."=0A>=0A> peace,=0A> D= oug=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated &= does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 03:01:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Lovelace Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... In-Reply-To: <190775.11787.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Amy, I wonder if your "sunk into disappearance" is more than a bit strong, similar to Ron Silliman's nearly threatening a lawsuit in his recent blog entry. I had thought about commenting on Ron's blog, then thought better of it, but as I am again awash by the sea of (frequently silly, constantly entertaining) commentary this item has created, I find myself again wanting to respond, lest the mob gather itself too swiftly. I wonder which 'author' response has spooked Mr McLaughlin the most, which threat made him nearly take down the project, tail between his foolish legs? (Need I reference Gatza's HCE anthology here?) From mild amusement, to unintentionally evocative disdain, to supreme financial retribution, to I DIDN'T WRITE THIS FUCKING GARBAGE! (the new I HATE SPEECH?!), please, by all means, continue. On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, amy king wrote: > From the Harriet Blog this a.m. > > > > Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and > unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're in or > you're not. Full roster below the fold. > > From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html: > > > > > > For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys. I imagine > they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to stir > up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? > dada-ist? surrealism? etc), facing the menacing world of "getting > published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem. They've > decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the author, > the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc. They've > done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their > efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be only a > ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites and > ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the anthology) after > their > pebble has sunk to disappearance. > > > > My response to them appears here: > > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ > > > Be well, > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 02:07:46 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: new interactive audio piece: F8MW9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a new work of interactive audio called F8MW9: http://vispo.com/mw . You'll need the Shockwave plugin from http://vispo.com/sw if you don't already have it installed. Margareta Waterman did the audio and the "glyphs"; I did the concept, programming, and design. The main interactive controls: 1. The value that starts out at 1200 (milliseconds) determines the maximum duration of the audio samples. I suggest you gradually decrease this value down to 1, pausing to listen occassionally to hear the change in the audio. And then gradually increase the value. 2. Click the waveform or the area where the "glyphs" are displayed to make the audio commence at that point along the waveform representation of the audio. 3. Clicking the button with the rectangle and arrow on it changes the "glyph" that F8MW9 'draws'; there are 3 "glyph" drawings in each of the Shockwave pieces. 4. Clicking the button with the rectangle with an x through it clears the drawing area. 5. Clicking the infinity button causes the entire sound file to play from beginning to end (rather than shorter samples). 6. The round knob is a volume control 7. The wave-arrow button advances to the next Shockwave piece. I could write several thousand words about what's going on in this piece, but I'll spare you and leave it up to you to construct its meaning on your own. Except to say you need to have it going for several minutes before the 'big picture' starts to emerge. Many thanks to my dear friend Margareta Waterman for humouring me on this one. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 11:26:32 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am with Amy King, this is a mere Dadaist game, wonderful and playful. I would have loved to have had a similar idea, Hopefully I will soon have One! Cheers to all ! Anny On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 2:04 AM, Larissa Shmailo wrote: > > > Anthology aside, what a search engine optimization technique this is for a > blog. For Godot and its editors have gone viral overnight. > > The whole thing is wonderful fun, exactly what poetry needs once in a > while, > some playful ribbing. I'm even getting used to "my" poem (a little). > > Larissa Shmailo (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) > "The poet, like the lover, is a menace on the assembly line." > -Rollo May > Listen to Exorcism on iTunes or at: > _http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2_ (http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2) > _http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism_ > (http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism) > > > > > > > > > **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your > destination. > Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 08:27:03 -0400 Reply-To: afilreis@writing.upenn.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Organization: University of Pennsylvania Subject: announcing KWH-TV (live from Kelly Writers House in Philadelphia) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To view a reading or seminar, go to our webcast instructions page: http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/webcasts/instructions.html. If you have Quicktime already installed on your computer, you'll just click "Start webcast" from this page. - - - _ *KWH-TV schedule (all times Eastern Time):* _ *POEMTALK October 7, 3:30 PM* PoemTalk records episode #15: Lyn Hejinian's "constant change figures," with Al Filreis, Tom Mandel, Bob Perelman, and Rodrigo Toscano. http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/calendar/1008.php#7. *****THE NEW YORK POETS November 4, 1:30 PM* Listen in as Al Filreis and students of English 88 (modern and contemporary poetry) discuss the New York School: Ashbery, O'Hara, Koch and others. http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88v/chap800a.html *EMILY DICKINSON WEBINAR November 10, 7:00 PM* This live, interactive "webinar" led by Al Filreis and Jessica Lowenthal will allow viewers to participate in a discussion of an Emily Dickinson poem via phone and internet. To participate, email wh@writing.upenn.edu or call (215) 573-9748. http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/calendar/1108.html#10. *CELEBRATION OF WILLIAM CARLOS WILLIAMS November 11, 6:00 PM* We'll celebrate the 125th birthday of William Carlos Williams with talks and readings by Sarah Dowling, erica kaufman, Pattie McCarthy, Jena Osman, and Elizabeth Scanlon. http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/calendar/1108.html#11. ***ASHBERY AND THE NON-NARRATIVE November 13, 1:30 PM* Listen in as Al Filreis and students of English 88 (modern and contemporary poetry) discuss the poetry of John Ashbery. http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88v/chap800a.html ** -- Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:18:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <88E9A2F36C60400BB34FA5420D642B22@CoreDuo> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Just to make it clear: Robin Hamilton doesn't appear on the list of "contributor" poets. Perhaps if the process had been more competent, whatever it was, Robin would be there too. That's an easy dig, but I want to make it because this sort of irritation is exactly the reason I think this was a worthwhile project by whoever did it. I think it's also worthwhile that it made Geraldine M. say that there are more important people to irritate. Maybe there are, but then again, this is saying something about self- worth, the value of poetry and so on. As previously noted, Geraldine doesn't appear in it either. I think it's even more interesting and more revealing that the crowd over on harry-et tends more toward anger. That seems to me to jibe with poetry-as-a-career, poetry-as-expression, and to fit less well with the more open and odd and procedural poetics found on this list, which has been more open to the humor in it. Sure, the project may not be the bestest and smarterest thing ever done, but it's provocative in ways that get people thinking about poetic economies and the role of poets in society, and so on. It reminds me a little of the Zurich Dada smartassery. And yes, maybe I should recuse myself, because I did make whatever cut the cyborg made. On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:54 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Dear Geraldine, >> >> You're just jealous no one googled your name. > .... >> amish > > > That's the odd thing -- whatever method of selection was used, it > doesn't seem to have been a very useful or effective one, and it > looks as if the names weren't taken directly from google -- it's > almost easier to note the omitted names you'd expect from a > straight trawl of high or even low profile sites or whatever than > to work out why anyone *is there. > > Perhaps the problem is that not *enough work was put into it, > beyond linking a text generation program to a search mechanism, and > pouring the results straight into a preformatted pdf file. > > A couple of evenings work for a relatively competent programmer, > finally. > > Irritation on the cheap. > > Robin Hamilton > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 08:20:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Samuel Wharton Subject: anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline maybe the best thing about all of this is that everyone listed is now on silliman's blog! samuel ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 11:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <4C44593DD2264EBFABEF86CD1FF4EAF1@rose> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It's because they hate our freedom. On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Adam Tobin wrote: > > Isn't that the aspiration of EVERY poetry anthology? Usually people just > get pissed off about what's excluded; this is far more interesting. > > > Why should anyone spend so much time and effort > > 'p...ing off the poetry community'? > > What kind of utterly shallow aspiration is that? > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:00:14 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... In-Reply-To: <5fc9b3260810050001q46b5a737j1dc68ab63ad0d5a2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Patrick, I also wonder if you are willfully extracting a few of my words that clearl= y imply this entire conversation will simply "disappear", as it surely will= in a week or so, and conflating my words with "threatening a lawsuit" out = of some displaced need to defend the creators of this anthology ...?=A0 My = entire statement is one of encouraging sentiment about the anthology, as is= my original blog post (http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-= resurrected/) , and to read otherwise smells of ulterior motive. I have read many of the nasty comments as well in the various online venues= -- can't imagine how anyone can miss them -- but am a bit amiss that you c= hose to read my own positive ones, using three extracted words, as negative= .=A0 It is quite clear that you do not need to defend Stephen McLaughlin fr= om me.=A0 The man himself has left a comment on my blog; he does not write = as a threatened soul.=A0=20 As for defending him in general and the note that he might take the thing d= own, I can't believe that anyone would attach poems with 3,000 poets who di= d not write them and imagine only a hunky-dorey response.=A0 Of course ther= e's going to be fall out, even if that "fall out" is a bunch of pissed off = poets--but one hopes for more in the way of discussion/debate.=A0 That anyo= ne would hope for otherwise is to live in on another planet.=A0=20 And that's just the point of the anthology, I speculate.=A0 Ownership and e= gos would react first and generate conversation -- unless this is meant to = be some huge and romantic kind of ode to all of the poets included (several= who aren't poets), this anthology is all about challenging lots of ideas a= bout publishing, authorship, ownership, authority, anthologies, etc.=A0 Man= y here have already noted, just by discussing this anthology's existence, w= hat those issues are -- and beyond.=A0 To boil it down to me "threatening" = the creators somehow is just downright disingenuous, detracts from the issu= es raised, and does the creators no justice at all.=A0=20 Be well, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Patrick Lovelace wrote: From: Patrick Lovelace Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 3:01 AM Amy, I wonder if your "sunk into disappearance" is more than a bit strong, similar to Ron Silliman's nearly threatening a lawsuit in his recent blog entry. I had thought about commenting on Ron's blog, then thought better of it, but as I am again awash by the sea of (frequently silly, constantly entertaining) commentary this item has created, I find myself again wanting to respond, lest the mob gather itself too swiftly. I wonder which 'author' response has spooked Mr McLaughlin the most, which threat made him nearly take down the project, tail between his foolish legs? (Need I reference Gatza's HCE anthology here?) From mild amusement, to unintentionally evocative disdain, to supreme financial retribution, to I DIDN'T WRITE THIS FUCKING GARBAGE! (the new I HATE SPEECH?!), please, by all means, continue. On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, amy king wrote: > From the Harriet Blog this a.m. > > > > Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and > unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're in or > you're not. Full roster below the fold. > > From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html: > > > > > > For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys. I imagine > they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to stir > up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? > dada-ist? surrealism? etc), facing the menacing world of "getting > published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem.=20 They've > decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the author, > the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc. They've > done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their > efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be only a > ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites and > ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the anthology) afte= r > their > pebble has sunk to disappearance. > > > > My response to them appears here: > > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ > > > Be well, > > Amy > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:47:44 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... In-Reply-To: <5fc9b3260810050001q46b5a737j1dc68ab63ad0d5a2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For the record, I'm not spooked -- even by Uncle Ron. -- Stephen McLaughlin On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Patrick Lovelace wrote: > Amy, I wonder if your "sunk into disappearance" is more than a bit strong, > similar to Ron Silliman's nearly threatening a lawsuit in his recent blog > entry. > > I had thought about commenting on Ron's blog, then thought better of it, but > as I am again awash by the sea of (frequently silly, constantly > entertaining) commentary this item has created, I find myself again wanting > to respond, lest the mob gather itself too swiftly. I wonder which 'author' > response has spooked Mr McLaughlin the most, which threat made him nearly > take down the project, tail between his foolish legs? (Need I reference > Gatza's HCE anthology here?) > > From mild amusement, to unintentionally evocative disdain, to supreme > financial retribution, to I DIDN'T WRITE THIS FUCKING GARBAGE! (the new I > HATE SPEECH?!), please, by all means, continue. > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, amy king wrote: > >> From the Harriet Blog this a.m. >> >> >> >> Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and >> unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're in or >> you're not. Full roster below the fold. >> >> From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html: >> >> >> >> >> >> For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys. I imagine >> they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to stir >> up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? >> dada-ist? surrealism? etc), facing the menacing world of "getting >> published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem. They've >> decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the author, >> the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc. They've >> done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their >> efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be only a >> ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites and >> ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the anthology) after >> their >> pebble has sunk to disappearance. >> >> >> >> My response to them appears here: >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Fake Anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, Google Alert let me know that I'm in this anthology (see: =20 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_ant ho.html) =20 but of course my name appears below a poem I have not written. So am "I" in this anthology?=20 =20 What I'm curious about is, first of all, if a poem of mine is in the anthology sitting above someone else's name, and secondly, if not then who wrote all this poetry-Kenneth Goldsmith? =20 Burt Kimmelman =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:06:04 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <367626.99249.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Whoa, whoa, whoa. Just fyi, that wasn't me who commented on your blog. Sock puppets enter the saga! -- Steve McLaughlin On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 6:00 PM, amy king wrote: > Patrick, > > I also wonder if you are willfully extracting a few of my words that clearly imply this entire conversation will simply "disappear", as it surely will in a week or so, and conflating my words with "threatening a lawsuit" out of some displaced need to defend the creators of this anthology ...? My entire statement is one of encouraging sentiment about the anthology, as is my original blog post (http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/) , and to read otherwise smells of ulterior motive. > > I have read many of the nasty comments as well in the various online venues -- can't imagine how anyone can miss them -- but am a bit amiss that you chose to read my own positive ones, using three extracted words, as negative. It is quite clear that you do not need to defend Stephen McLaughlin from me. The man himself has left a comment on my blog; he does not write as a threatened soul. > > As for defending him in general and the note that he might take the thing down, I can't believe that anyone would attach poems with 3,000 poets who did not write them and imagine only a hunky-dorey response. Of course there's going to be fall out, even if that "fall out" is a bunch of pissed off poets--but one hopes for more in the way of discussion/debate. That anyone would hope for otherwise is to live in on another planet. > > And that's just the point of the anthology, I speculate. Ownership and egos would react first and generate conversation -- unless this is meant to be some huge and romantic kind of ode to all of the poets included (several who aren't poets), this anthology is all about challenging lots of ideas about publishing, authorship, ownership, authority, anthologies, etc. Many here have already noted, just by discussing this anthology's existence, what those issues are -- and beyond. To boil it down to me "threatening" the creators somehow is just downright disingenuous, detracts from the issues raised, and does the creators no justice at all. > > Be well, > > Amy > > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Patrick Lovelace wrote: > From: Patrick Lovelace > Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 3:01 AM > > Amy, I wonder if your "sunk into disappearance" is more than a bit > strong, > similar to Ron Silliman's nearly threatening a lawsuit in his recent blog > entry. > > I had thought about commenting on Ron's blog, then thought better of it, > but > as I am again awash by the sea of (frequently silly, constantly > entertaining) commentary this item has created, I find myself again wanting > to respond, lest the mob gather itself too swiftly. I wonder which > 'author' > response has spooked Mr McLaughlin the most, which threat made him nearly > take down the project, tail between his foolish legs? (Need I reference > Gatza's HCE anthology here?) > > From mild amusement, to unintentionally evocative disdain, to supreme > financial retribution, to I DIDN'T WRITE THIS FUCKING GARBAGE! (the new I > HATE SPEECH?!), please, by all means, continue. > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, amy king wrote: > >> From the Harriet Blog this a.m. >> >> >> >> Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and >> unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're > in or >> you're not. Full roster below the fold. >> >> From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html: >> >> >> >> >> >> For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys. I imagine >> they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to > stir >> up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? >> dada-ist? surrealism? etc), facing the menacing world of "getting >> published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem. > They've >> decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the author, >> the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc. They've >> done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their >> efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be only a >> ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites and >> ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the anthology) after >> their >> pebble has sunk to disappearance. >> >> >> >> My response to them appears here: >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 09:17:11 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stephen,=20 Okay, someone signed as you, gave this blog address: http://vladdyzykovden.= blogspot.com/, but their IP address is in Brooklyn.=A0 Go figure. But the point remains, Steve McLaughlin doesn't strike me as someone gettin= g scared enough to pull his anthology down due to angry responses, and mine= isn't one of them anyone, so cheers! Thanks, Amy --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Steve McLaughlin wrote: From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 12:06 PM Whoa, whoa, whoa. Just fyi, that wasn't me who commented on your blog. Sock puppets enter the saga! -- Steve McLaughlin On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 6:00 PM, amy king wrote: > Patrick, > > I also wonder if you are willfully extracting a few of my words that clearly imply this entire conversation will simply "disappear", as it surely will in a week or so, and conflating my words with "threatening a lawsuit" out of some displaced need to defend the creators of this anthology ...? My entire statement is one of encouraging sentiment about t= he anthology, as is my original blog post (http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/) , and to = read otherwise smells of ulterior motive. > > I have read many of the nasty comments as well in the various online venues -- can't imagine how anyone can miss them -- but am a bit amiss that you chose to read my own positive ones, using three extracted words, as negative. It is quite clear that you do not need to defend Stephen McLaugh= lin from me. The man himself has left a comment on my blog; he does not write = as a threatened soul. > > As for defending him in general and the note that he might take the thing down, I can't believe that anyone would attach poems with 3,000 poets who did not write them and imagine only a hunky-dorey response. Of course there's going to be fall out, even if that "fall out" is a bunch of pissed off poets--but one hopes for more in the way of discussion/debate= .=20 That anyone would hope for otherwise is to live in on another planet. > > And that's just the point of the anthology, I speculate. Ownership and egos would react first and generate conversation -- unless this is mean= t to be some huge and romantic kind of ode to all of the poets included (several= who aren't poets), this anthology is all about challenging lots of ideas about publishing, authorship, ownership, authority, anthologies, etc. Many here = have already noted, just by discussing this anthology's existence, what those issues are -- and beyond. To boil it down to me "threatening" the creators somehow is just downright disingenuous, detracts from the issues raised, and does the creators no justice at all. > > Be well, > > Amy > > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Patrick Lovelace wrote: > From: Patrick Lovelace > Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 3:01 AM > > Amy, I wonder if your "sunk into disappearance" is more than a bit > strong, > similar to Ron Silliman's nearly threatening a lawsuit in his recent blog > entry. > > I had thought about commenting on Ron's blog, then thought better of it, > but > as I am again awash by the sea of (frequently silly, constantly > entertaining) commentary this item has created, I find myself again wanting > to respond, lest the mob gather itself too swiftly. I wonder which > 'author' > response has spooked Mr McLaughlin the most, which threat made him nearly > take down the project, tail between his foolish legs? (Need I reference > Gatza's HCE anthology here?) > > From mild amusement, to unintentionally evocative disdain, to supreme > financial retribution, to I DIDN'T WRITE THIS FUCKING GARBAGE! (the new I > HATE SPEECH?!), please, by all means, continue. > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, amy king wrote: > >> From the Harriet Blog this a.m. >> >> >> >> Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and >> unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're > in or >> you're not. Full roster below the fold. >> >> From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html: >> >> >> >> >> >> For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys. I imagine >> they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to > stir >> up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? >> dada-ist? surrealism? etc), facing the menacing world of "getting >> published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem. > They've >> decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the author, >> the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc.=20 They've >> done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their >> efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be only a >> ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites and >> ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the anthology) after >> their >> pebble has sunk to disappearance. >> >> >> >> My response to them appears here: >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:16:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fake Anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Of course, just write it! On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Kimmelman, Burt wrote: > Well, Google Alert let me know that I'm in this anthology (see: > > > > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_ant > ho.html) > > > > but of course my name appears below a poem I have not written. So am "I" > in this anthology? > > > > What I'm curious about is, first of all, if a poem of mine is in the > anthology sitting above someone else's name, and secondly, if not then > who wrote all this poetry-Kenneth Goldsmith? > > > > Burt Kimmelman > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable These are the upcoming events at The Poetry Project. We hope you=B9ll be here= . Saturday, October 4, 12 PM Memorial for Rochelle Ratner (Free) Writer and editor Rochelle Ratner was the author of sixteen collections of poetry, most recently Ben Casey Days (Marsh Hawk Press, 2008). Please join her loved ones and colleagues as we take an afternoon to remember her and her work. Readers will include Jane Augustine, Claudia Carlson, George Economou, Tom Fink, Dorothy Friedman, Daniela Gioseffi, Bob Heman, Burt Kimmelman, Basil King, Martha King, Sandy McIntosh, Stephen Paul Miller, Carol Novack, Sharon Olinka, Rochelle Owens, Paul Pines, Thaddeus Rutkowski= , Jackie Sheeler, Mark Weiss and Marie Ponsot. A reception will follow. This event is in cooperation with Marsh Hawk Press. Monday, October 6, 8 PM Open Reading Sign-up 7:45pm. Wednesday, October 8, 8 PM Steve McCaffery, Karen Mac Cormack & Marjorie Welish Steve McCaffery is the author of more than 25 volumes of poetry and criticism, most recently Slightly Left of Thinking from Chax Press and Paradigm of the Tinctures (with Alan Halsey) from Granary Books. He is one of the founding theorists of Language Poetry and a founding member of both the Toronto Research Group and the sound poetry ensemble The Four Horsemen. He lives in Buffalo where he is the David Gray Professor of Poetry and Letters at the University at Buffalo. Born in Luanshya, Zambia, Karen Mac Cormack is the author of more than a dozen books of poetry. Titles include Nothing by Mouth, Quill Driver, Quirks & Quillets, At Issue and Vanity Release. Her poetry appears in a number of anthologies, among them: Another Language: Poetic Experiments in the USA and the UK, Out of Everywhere: Linguistically Innovative Poetry by Women in North America and the UK, Moving Borders (Three Decades of Innovative Writing by Women), The Art of Practice, and has been translated into French, Portuguese, Swedish, and Norwegian. Of dual British/Canadian citizenship, she currently lives in the USA and teaches at the State University of New York at Buffalo. Marjorie Welish received her B.A. from Columbia University and her M.F.A. from Vermont College. She is the author of several books of poetry, including Th= e Windows Flew Open (Burning Deck, 1991), Casting Sequences (University of Georgia, 1993), The Annotated =B3Here=B2 and Selected Poems (2000), Word Group (2004), and Isle of the Signatories (2008) - these last, published by Coffe= e House Press. A professor teaching at Columbia University and at Pratt Institute, she is also the author of a book of art criticism: Signifying Art: Essays on Art after 1960 (Cambridge University Press, 1999). Often anthologized, her poetry may be found in: Best Poems of 1988 (Scribners), From the Other Side of the Century: A New American Poetry 1960-1990 (Sun& Moon Press, 1994), Experimental Poetry: 1950 to the Present (Norton, 1994), and Nineteen Lines (Drawing Center/ Roof Books, 2007). Friday, October 10, 10 PM Vanessa Place & Steven Zultanski Vanessa Place is a writer and lawyer, and co-director of Les Figues Press. She is the author of Dies: A Sentence, a 50,000-word, one-sentence novella, the post-conceptual novel La Medusa (Fiction Collective 2), a chapbook, Figure from The Gates of Paradise (Woodland Editions/Five Fingers Review) and the forthcoming Conceptualisms: An Ill-Conceived Guide to Kinda Conceptual, Post-Conceptual, Extant and Taxonomical Writings, etc., written with Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling Presse). Her nonfiction book, The Guil= t Project: Rape and Morality, will be published in Fall 2009 by Other Press. Her collaboration with artist/performer Lamya Regragui will debut at Cent Quatre in Paris/Los Angeles in 2009, and she is collaborating with conceptual artist Stephanie Taylor on Olady, a visual/sound project. She lives in Los Angeles. Steven Zultanski is the author of the chapbooks Homoe= m (Radical Readout, 2005), This and That Lenin (BookThug, 2008) and Steve's Poem (Lettermachine, forthcoming). He edits President's Choice magazine, a Lil' Norton publication. His poetry has appeared in Antennae, FO(A)RM, The Physical Poets, Shiny, and elsewhere. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:34:54 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "J.P. Craig" > Just to make it clear: Robin Hamilton doesn't appear on the list of > "contributor" poets. I'd hardly expect to -- I have neither blog nor homepage, and publish relatively little online. What caught my eye when this surfaced some weeks ago was the name of Dominic Fox. I was surprised, not because Dom isn't a good poet (I'm hoping to publish his work eventually in Phantom Rooster Press) but because he isn't exactly high profile. I checked a number of names included against participants in the poetryetc list, and there seemed to be three from there -- Halvard Johnson (though Hal would qualify in various catagories), Andrew Burke and, Dom. Possibly others, but I didn't notice, but quite a few high profile names missing, such as Alison Croggan, editor of _Masthead_. (I used poetryetc as a test case simply because I know the list well enough to judge, merit aside, the nature of the profile of the members of the list. Anny Ballardini is also included in the compilation, but she tends not to post poems to poetryetc. The same relatively odd [arbitrary] selection of names from New Poetry appeared. The logic of the selection still intrigues me. Or the actual instructions given to the 'bot, and what it was sicked on.) So we aren't looking at a simple google trawl. One suggestion that's come up is that the names were taken from blogger.com. I don't think it matters much (other than the presence or absence of names among the Favoured 3000 seems to correlate with neither merit nor web-presence) except to suggest that the selection of names was done on the cheap. What disturbs me more is the apparently unironic approval of so many people for the poems attached to their names that were produced by a text generation engine. This suggests that the response to what we have here is less to a dadaist or Situationist manifestation than a return to the old Eliza program of the sixties, when people were reluctant to admit that they were talking to a singularly dumb computer program. Mind you, as someone pointed out, given that the whole thing has gone viral, it worked on that level. > Perhaps if the process had been more competent, whatever it was, > Robin would be there too. I doubt it (see above). I score higher on googlebooks (we all have our little comfort blankets) than I do on plain vanila google. > That's an easy dig, Well, depends on what you mean by easy. I did put a little work and thought into it. For anyone who's interested, from what I've seen, the discussion on New Poetry tends to be the most technical in analysing the mechanism of how it was done. Nuff said. Robin Hamilton ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 00:53:31 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70810050226w524e84c7ub86ab1f4d3427ef1@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? On Oct 5, 2008, at 5:26 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am with Amy King, this is a mere Dadaist game, wonderful and > playful. I > would have loved to have had a similar idea, Hopefully I will soon > have One! > Cheers to all ! > > Anny > > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 2:04 AM, Larissa Shmailo > wrote: > >> >> >> Anthology aside, what a search engine optimization technique this >> is for a >> blog. For Godot and its editors have gone viral overnight. >> >> The whole thing is wonderful fun, exactly what poetry needs once in a >> while, >> some playful ribbing. I'm even getting used to "my" poem (a little). >> >> Larissa Shmailo (http://myspace.com/larissaworld) >> "The poet, like the lover, is a menace on the assembly line." >> -Rollo May >> Listen to Exorcism on iTunes or at: >> _http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2_ (http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2) >> _http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism_ >> (http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your >> destination. >> Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! >> (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing > star! > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:16:21 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a similar reaction. the pieces attributed to me do have ELEMENTS that look like they might be related to me in some way. A couple of the word choices do look a bit like something I might have written. On Oct 5, 2008, at 3:25 AM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > I am very curious as to the precise algorithms or other methods > used in the > gathering of these names and the creation of these poems.Twilight > appears in > the title and body of "my" poem, which is a keyword for me and is > in the > title of the online journal I run, but the line breaks are weak. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Seaman Subject: Calling Caribbean poets near Boston In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to organize an event around launching my translation of =20 Andr=E9 Breton's Martinique Snake Charmer (University of Texas Press, =20= $19.95) in a bookstore in greater Boston. The bookstore owner would =20 like to enhance the event by having one or more Caribbean poets read =20 from their work. Breton's book has an important essay about Aim=E9 =20 C=E9saire, and include poems by Breton and Andr=E9 Masson. So, Caribbean poets, please speak up. The event would be on Saturday, =20= November 15. David Seaman dseaman40@mac.com= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:58:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Santa Claus is a pedophile and if I had kids he would be SHOT coming down the chimney! This is not a hoax, but neither is the anthology? In Pennsylvania where I live we have the LEAST amount of paper trail for election votes per voting machine per voter. This is not a hoax, but so is the anthology. Crying and praying is the same release Joni Mitchess once sang, or something about laughing. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 11:01:48 -0700 Reply-To: lmrussell04@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lauren Russell Subject: Re: fakeish anthololgy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So Steve, how on earth did you get my name?=A0 I'm quite obscure to be incl= uded in such public satire. Of course, the "researchers" are probably reluc= tant to reveal their methods.=A0 This is a bizarre way to be spending your = time, but it does raise some interesting questions. Lauren Date:=A0 =A0 Sun, 5 Oct 2008 01:46:57 +0200 From:=A0 =A0 Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: fakeish anthology Well -- thank you for your generally positive response (or at least not aggressively negative, like some recent posts on the Poetry Foundation's Harriet blog). For my part, I'm getting a good laugh out of this whole thing. Just changed all my passwords to be on the safe side. All the best -- -steve =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:08:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Lovelace Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... Comments: To: "amyhappens@yahoo.com" In-Reply-To: <367626.99249.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 3B48b) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amy, Thanks for your response. I had not read your blog entry, obviously, & apologize for the stretching. I think my comment was much more colored by Mr Silliman's, which upon reading again seems even stranger. At the same time, all the net detective stuff seems overkill, from your minor IP work to Ron's posting of Mr McLaughlin's address. Maybe we could get his SS number too, & trash his credit rating as he has trashed ours. Kidding, obviously. Thank you for your response. As far as a 'displaced need', I take it as a compliment. Cheers, Patrick On Oct 5, 2008, at 12:00 PM, amy king wrote: > Patrick, > > I also wonder if you are willfully extracting a few of my words that > clearly imply this entire conversation will simply "disappear", as > it surely will in a week or so, and conflating my words with > "threatening a lawsuit" out of some displaced need to defend the > creators of this anthology ...? My entire statement is one of > encouraging sentiment about the anthology, as is my original blog > post (http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author- > resurrected/) , and to read otherwise smells of ulterior motive. > > I have read many of the nasty comments as well in the various online > venues -- can't imagine how anyone can miss them -- but am a bit > amiss that you chose to read my own positive ones, using three > extracted words, as negative. It is quite clear that you do not > need to defend Stephen McLaughlin from me. The man himself has left > a comment on my blog; he does not write as a threatened soul. > > As for defending him in general and the note that he might take the > thing down, I can't believe that anyone would attach poems with > 3,000 poets who did not write them and imagine only a hunky-dorey > response. Of course there's going to be fall out, even if that > "fall out" is a bunch of pissed off poets--but one hopes for more in > the way of discussion/debate. That anyone would hope for otherwise > is to live in on another planet. > > And that's just the point of the anthology, I speculate. Ownership > and egos would react first and generate conversation -- unless this > is meant to be some huge and romantic kind of ode to all of the > poets included (several who aren't poets), this anthology is all > about challenging lots of ideas about publishing, authorship, > ownership, authority, anthologies, etc. Many here have already > noted, just by discussing this anthology's existence, what those > issues are -- and beyond. To boil it down to me "threatening" the > creators somehow is just downright disingenuous, detracts from the > issues raised, and does the creators no justice at all. > > Be well, > > Amy > > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Patrick Lovelace > wrote: > From: Patrick Lovelace > Subject: Re: Check Out HOW They're Getting Readers... > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 3:01 AM > > Amy, I wonder if your "sunk into disappearance" is more than a bit > strong, > similar to Ron Silliman's nearly threatening a lawsuit in his recent > blog > entry. > > I had thought about commenting on Ron's blog, then thought better of > it, > but > as I am again awash by the sea of (frequently silly, constantly > entertaining) commentary this item has created, I find myself again > wanting > to respond, lest the mob gather itself too swiftly. I wonder which > 'author' > response has spooked Mr McLaughlin the most, which threat made him > nearly > take down the project, tail between his foolish legs? (Need I > reference > Gatza's HCE anthology here?) > > From mild amusement, to unintentionally evocative disdain, to supreme > financial retribution, to I DIDN'T WRITE THIS FUCKING GARBAGE! (the > new I > HATE SPEECH?!), please, by all means, continue. > > On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, amy king > wrote: > >> From the Harriet Blog this a.m. >> >> >> >> Featuring the work of 3, 164 poets. Completely unpermissioned and >> unauthorized, pissing off the entire poetry community. Either you're > in or >> you're not. Full roster below the fold. >> >> From http://www.forgodot.com/2008/10/issue-1-release-announcement.html >> : >> >> >> >> >> >> For what's it worth, kudos to these three young guys. I imagine >> they're students, twiddling their thumbs, trying to imagine how to > stir >> up the poetry world, steeped in some sort of theory (situationist? >> dada-ist? surrealism? etc), facing the menacing world of "getting >> published" and making something of themselves as poets, ahem. > They've >> decided to take on the death of the lyrical I, the death of the >> author, >> the death of paper, the celebration of the internet sea, etc. >> They've >> done something, though just what isn't clear, but yes, kudos to their >> efforts to make a mess of the pool of internet muck -- it may be >> only a >> ripple in the end, but maybe some of the worthwhile work and sites >> and >> ideas will get a chance to rise (not necessarily from the >> anthology) after >> their >> pebble has sunk to disappearance. >> >> >> >> My response to them appears here: >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-author-resurrected/ >> >> >> Be well, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:28:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Julie Strand <25jnuts@GMAIL.COM> Subject: David Meltzer & Michael Rothenberg @ Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee Saturday, October 11, 7pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline FEATURED READING: David Meltzer and Michael Rothenberg Saturday, October 11, 7pm Saturday, October 11, 2008; 7pm $8/$7/$6 A leading poet of the Beat Movement,David Meltzer was raised in Brooklyn during the War years; performed on radio & early TV on the Horn & Hardart Children's Hour. Was exiled to L.A. at 16 & at 17 enrolled in an ongoing academy w/ artists Wallace Berman, George Herms, Robert Alexander, Cameron; migrated to San Francisco in l957 for higher education w/ peers & maestros like Jack Spicer, Robert Duncan, Joanne Kyger, Diane DiPrima, Michael McClure, Lew Welch, Philip Whalen, Jack Hirschman, a cast of thousands all living extraordinary ordinary lives. Beat Thing [La Alameda Press, 2004] won the Josephine Miles PEN Award, 2005. Was editor and interviewer for San Francisco Beat: Talking With The Poets [City Lights, 2001]. With Steve Dickison, co-edits Shuffle Boil, a magazine devoted to music in all its appearances & disappearances. 2005 saw the publication of David's Copy: The Selected Poems of David Meltzer by Viking/Penguin, a collection spanning over forty years of work that paints a vivid portrait of Meltzer's life as a poet through poems taken from thirty of his previous books of poetry. With a versatile style and playful tone, Meltzer offers his unique vision of civilization with a range of juxtapositions from Jewish mysticism and everyday life to jazz and pop culture. Michael Rothenberg is a poet, songwriter, and editor of Big Bridge magazine online at www.bigbridge.org. His poetry books include Man/Woman, a collaboration with Joanne Kyger, The Paris Journals (Fish Drum Press), Monk Daddy (Blue Press), and Unhurried Vision (La Alameda/University of New Mexico Press). His poems have been published widely in small press publications including, 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry, Exquisite Corpse, First Intensity, Fulcrum, Golden Handcuffs Review, House Organ, Prague Literary Review, Tricycle, Vanitas, Zyzzyva, JACK, and Jacket. He is also author of the novel Punk Rockwell. Rothenberg's 2005 CD collaboration with singer Elya Finn, was praised by poet David Meltzer as "fabulous-all [the] songs sound like Weimar Lenya & postwar Nico, lushly affirmative at the same time being edged w/ cosmic weltschmertz. An immensely tasty production." He is also editor for the Penguin Poet series, which includes selected works of Philip Whalen, Joanne Kyger, David Meltzer and Ed Dorn. He has recently completed the Collected Poems of Philip Whalen for Wesleyan University Press. To read poems by the authors go to WP's website: www.woodlandpattern.org -- Behind the storm of daily conflict and crisis, the dramatic confrontations, the tumult of political struggle, the poet, the artist, the musician, continues the quiet work of centuries, building bridges of experience between peoples, reminding man of the universality of his feelings and desires and despairs, and reminding him that the forces that unite are deeper than those that divide. -John F. Kennedy ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:50:06 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Elizabeth you might have missed that I said brutal things happened to me and my mother BECAUSE we were living in a car. Things I didn't get into, nor wish to. Instead I brought up those who were generous, and those who were generous were also poor. In the end my point originally was, and continues to be that what we're living in and living with is tantamount to complete madness. I've been watching the Sunday morning journalists DEBATE over the debates and DEBATE over the bail-out for Wallstreet. What I keep hearing is "construction is DOWN" "we NEED to stimulate our economy with MORE construction" .... The idea of MORE is a form of madness. We have enough. We've had enough for a very long time. The idea of economic stimulation is totally bizarre in a country which has a surplus of resources which often get burned, dumped, housed in vaults (cheese for instance). The Irish are pissing off the British with their INCREDIBLE offer to open their banks with fixed protection, and now both McCain and Obama have called to raise THOSE VERY STAKES by increasing America's 100,000 federal banking protection to 250,000. In the end nothing can protect us from the misery of polluted fresh water, destroyed and fallow land, and a continued sense of MORE construction which only continues to create more pollution, and in a time when more and more people are homeless. EXCITED for the math meant without abstraction the home run slide to the end of all of this. CARING PEOPLE are not people who chillingly pretend a million deaths in Iraq are not everyone's responsibility. I'm no longer EXCITED for the math as Washington proved its cowardice once again. We were on a roll, headed toward destruction of one system, a system which rewards greed and murder and theft, to one where our government would be FORCED to implement structures of aid to those who clearly need it the most. FDR was brilliant because he saw how to offer aid for votes. And I don't care what motives he had so long as he helped the poor, which he did. Neither of our 2-party candidates have offered substantial evidence that they intend to help the poor in real ways. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <8ad9f3a90810050620offe55f0w597aeab055a996ba@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline What this anthology is to me about is the celebration of the internet. I wonder what algorithm was used to arrive at the names of these poets. Ciao, Murat On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Samuel Wharton wrote: > maybe the best thing about all of this is that everyone listed is now on > silliman's blog! > > samuel > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:23:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <8ad9f3a90810050620offe55f0w597aeab055a996ba@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems were written by a computer algorithm? It seems to be a very sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who "gets it"; among other things, I am guessing it uses related groups of words together as well as some ideas about poetic form. Perhaps it is drawing from our own poems as source texts? Apparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that most people seem not to notice that it was not written by a human. Kudos to the programmers! I've spent now several hours with the manuscript, and am finding real poetry within it. adam tobin PS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if it is using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it seems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry Community" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather than, say, any one individual typist. That attribution may also apply to the work we usually publish under our own names, anyway. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:17:26 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Poems and Poetics - recent postings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following are the September postings on my continuing = blog-anthology, poemsandpoetics.blogsport.com. =20 =20 *From Poetics & Polemics: Louis Zukofsky, a Reminiscense *Uncollected Poems (5): What They Wore=20 *For Kader El-Janabi: The French Connection =20 *Reconfiguring Romanticism (13) : Cyprian Norwid, poem & commentary. =20 *Uncollected Poems (4): On a Line by Val=E9ry =20 *12 Essential Books: for Poet's Bookshelf, Volume Two*Reconfiguring = Romanticism (12): Four Poems by Michael McClure, with commentary *From A Book of Concealments: Romantic Dadas, & Other Poems=20 *Reconfiguring Romanticism (11): Prologue to A Book of Extensions, with = excerpts from Goethe, Carroll, Thoreau=20 *Technicians of the Sacred - 40th Anniversary Reading=20 *From Poetics & Polemics: Reading Celan, 1959, 1995=20 =20 As we come closer to publication of Poems for the Millennium Volume 3 = [Romanticism & Postromanticism], I expect to post large sections of the = very extensive table of contents, further poems and commentaries, and = early responses to the gathering as such. Publication remains scheduled = for January 2009, with advance copies expected in November or early = December. Jerome Rothenberg "Language is Delphi." 1026 San Abella --Novalis Encinitas, CA 92024 jrothenberg at cox.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:10:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: thomas bell Subject: Re: Nobel literature head: US too insular to compete In-Reply-To: <540488.41042.qm@web52410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline per Charles McGrath in NYTIMES (Ideas and trends) today The US is too insular to be considered for prize. They don't translate enough and "don't really participate in the big dialogue of literature." Claudio Magris, Adonis,Kadare mentioned as potential winners. tom bell ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 12:57:59 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: PJ Subject: from east to west, fall '08 In-Reply-To: <481580.53909.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yet another quarterly issue done! The fall '08 issue of from east to west: bicoastal verse is packed full with 44 full color pages of featured poets, Patrick Carrington & Constance Pavliska, artists & photographers, Scott Davis, Constance Pavliska, Dave Wade & more, "time" poets, Brion Berkshire, Geraldine Cannon, Wendy Howe, Jim Knowles, Doug Knowlton, Ken Markee, Alice Persons, & Patricia Smith Ranzoni, and our "Best of the Net" nominations, Courtney Campbell, Laurel Dodge, Helmuth Filipowitsch, Gil Helmick, David Moreau, & Barton Smock. Again the issue is available from Lulu.com as either a free .pdf download or an at-cost print paperback. Submission call for Winter '08/'09: For the winter themed section, we are looking for poetry about "travel" to cure us of our cabin fever. Send your submissions and a short bio in the body of an email with "travel submission" in the subject line. Travel (Edna St. Vincent Millay) The railroad track is miles away, And the day is loud with voices speaking, Yet there isn't a train goes by all day But I hear its whistle shrieking. All night there isn't a train goes by, Though the night is still for sleep and dreaming, But I see its cinders red on the sky, And hear its engine steaming. My heart is warm with friends I make, And better friends I'll not be knowing; Yet there isn't a train I'd rather take, No matter where it's going. Also, we are looking for visual artists to be featured in the winter and future issues. If interested, send an inquiry with a link to samples of your work. All submissions should be sent to PJ Nights at tangerine_reflections@yahoo.com. PJ Nights ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:03:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <1C8D576A6E7646E49379799C118FA5DE@rose> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The thing is, the poems are all quite similar to each other. they're not bad, but the similarity quickly makes the whole anthology a bit bland; i guess this is part of the critique implied by the process as well as all the other critiques people have mentioned. Adam Tobin wrote: > What everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems > were written by a computer algorithm? > > It seems to be a very sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who "gets > it"; among other things, I am guessing it uses related groups of words > together as well as some ideas about poetic form. Perhaps it is drawing > from our own poems as source texts? > > Apparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that most people seem not to > notice that it was not written by a human. > > Kudos to the programmers! I've spent now several hours with the manuscript, > and am finding real poetry within it. > > adam tobin > > PS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if it > is using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it > seems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry > Community" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather > than, say, any one individual typist. > > That attribution may also apply to the work we usually publish under our own > names, anyway. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:08:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <177392.13040.qm@web65103.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > =20 http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_anth= o.html i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'.=20 jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was = writing that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that he = was primarily interested in trying to get the program to write = 'original', interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were = 'based' on other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the = algorithms produced work that could include as much or apparently as = little of the originals as one liked. so that the result could be made = to 'stylistically' resemble the 'original' but otherwise not be = particularly recognizable.=20 the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to = anything i've written. if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that you = could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new one = 'based on' what you fed it. the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a = professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these sorts of = projects. sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer.=20 i expect jim is the brains behind this project. ja http://vispo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Dillon Subject: Issues with Issue 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This morning I was pleased to see that my friend Steve McLaughlin is getting a lot of attention for his collaborative work Issue 1. I was also pleased to discover that I am included in the anthology. Many people are, understandably, unhappy. Depending on how one looks at it, those included are either the recipients of a gift or victims. The reaction seems rather split. Steve has more confidence than I do that it will be able to remain on the web, but I am enjoying the dialog it has triggered on its own page, Silliman's Blog, Amy King's Alias, and Harriet. Issue 1 is edited by Steve and Jim Carpenter. The website lists Steve, Vladimir Zykov, and Gregory Laynor as co-researchers. There seems to be a lot of poor speculation about the authorship of the poems. For those who are not familiar with Jim Carpenter or who won't take the five minutes to research him, he is the creator of Erica T Carter or etc3, a random poem generator. The poems attributed to the authors of Issue 1 are most likely randomly generated poems using this software or another of Jim's creations. The problem with this anthology is that it directly provokes an array of actual authors. Personally, I am flattered to be included in this anthology (no doubt because of my personal friendship with Steve), but I do sympathize with those that are unhappy to have their names included. My girlfriend, a law student not included in this anthology, has great fear about the potential of the internet to invade privacy and hurt reputations. Although I may not share these anxieties, I respect her opinion and have learned from it. People may be genuinely upset when false actions are attributed to them. So, in my opinion, this is a rather disrespectful piece of art. That disrespect will be a pro for some, a con for others. While this is intentionally provocative, we must admit that the stakes are very small, and anyone with half a brain or an internet connection will know that these are unoriginal works. So what is the actual harm? Therefore, we must also recognize Steve and Jim's bravado. The merit of this piece results from the collision of theory and the real world.We could use more of this interaction in almost every aspect of our lives. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:00:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <48E92BBA.40709@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Thanks, Jim. Actually, it seems to me that the poems have similies because to the algorhythm designer, a simile is an easy to program phrase (throw in like! throw in as!) that makes it seem like a poem, poetic language; the list seems to be 1) a lot of POETICS list folks (easy to harvest from archives, probably comprepoetica), 2) a lot of "very online" folks, 3) a lot of poets who play with computer interference of various sorts, 4) dead folks with not particularly litigious estates: for 3000+ writers, seems like 3000+ of the writers least likely to be freaked out. Names from other poetry listservs or just groups of other poets I know aren't there. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:08:58 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We're on the same page, Conrad. I almost never vote=A0 for a candidate. I v= ote against them. I almost wanted to ever so slightly vote for Obama simply= because he claimed he would shift the tax burden to the very rich. But wit= h the Wallstreet bullshit, how much credence can anyone put in that Gospel?= If McCain croaked, I'd consider voting for Palin in the hope of a little c= omic relief,=A0and the even greater hope that she could ruin what's left of= the economy=A0quicker than anyone else, =A0then lo/behold, here comes Soci= alism and my team finally scores, hurrah!=A0 =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mes= sage ----=0AFrom: CA Conrad =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.B= UFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 2:50:06 PM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITE= D for the math=0A=0AElizabeth you might have missed that I said brutal thin= gs happened to me and=0Amy mother BECAUSE we were living in a car.=A0 Thing= s I didn't get into, nor=0Awish to.=A0 Instead I brought up those who were = generous, and those who were=0Agenerous were also poor.=0A=0AIn the end my = point originally was, and continues to be that what we're=0Aliving in and l= iving with is tantamount to complete madness.=0A=0AI've been watching the S= unday morning journalists DEBATE over the debates=0Aand DEBATE over the bai= l-out for Wallstreet.=A0 What I keep hearing is=0A"construction is DOWN"=A0= "we NEED to stimulate our economy with MORE=0Aconstruction" ....=0A=0AThe = idea of MORE is a form of madness.=A0 We have enough.=A0 We've had enough= =0Afor a very long time.=A0 The idea of economic stimulation is totally biz= arre=0Ain a country which has a surplus of resources which often get burned= ,=0Adumped, housed in vaults (cheese for instance).=0A=0AThe Irish are piss= ing off the British with their INCREDIBLE offer to open=0Atheir banks with = fixed protection, and now both McCain and Obama have called=0Ato raise THOS= E VERY STAKES by increasing America's 100,000 federal banking=0Aprotection = to 250,000.=0A=0AIn the end nothing can protect us from the misery of pollu= ted fresh water,=0Adestroyed and fallow land, and a continued sense of MORE= construction which=0Aonly continues to create more pollution, and in a tim= e when more and more=0Apeople are homeless.=0A=0AEXCITED for the math meant= without abstraction the home run slide to the end=0Aof all of this.=A0 CAR= ING PEOPLE are not people who chillingly pretend a=0Amillion deaths in Iraq= are not everyone's responsibility.=0A=0AI'm no longer EXCITED for the math= as Washington proved its cowardice once=0Aagain.=0A=0AWe were on a roll, h= eaded toward destruction of one system, a system which=0Arewards greed and = murder and theft, to one where our government would be=0AFORCED to implemen= t structures of aid to those who clearly need it the most.=0A=0AFDR was bri= lliant because he saw how to offer aid for votes.=A0 And I don't=0Acare wha= t motives he had so long as he helped the poor, which he did.=0ANeither of = our 2-party candidates have offered substantial evidence that=0Athey intend= to help the poor in real ways.=0A=0ACAConrad=0Ahttp://PhillySound.blogspot= .com =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:15:05 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dillon Westbrook Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty obvious to me that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro (i.e. the 3,785 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, on this list and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems of dubious authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been hacked in the recent past. signed, Dillon Westbrook (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >> > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ > 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > > > i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. > > jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was > writing that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was > that he was primarily interested in trying to get the program to > write 'original', interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the > poems were 'based' on other texts (used them as 'seed' material), > but the algorithms produced work that could include as much or > apparently as little of the originals as one liked. so that the > result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the 'original' but > otherwise not be particularly recognizable. > > the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to > anything i've written. > > if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that > you could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new > one 'based on' what you fed it. > > the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a > professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these > sorts of projects. > > sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. > > i expect jim is the brains behind this project. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:41:31 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course it's obvious that it was computer-generated, if only because it i= s=C2=A0even vaster than the lifetime work of Ron Silliman and Clark Coolidg= e combined. But what's interesting is how good it is. (Not as good as their= s, I mean, but pretty darn good--a lot of the language has considerable pre= sence.) As I just wrote back-channel to one of the other correspondents to = this list,=C2=A0isn't it interesting how much better this machine-generated= poetry is than most "written" poetry? Maybe that realization is secretly w= hy so many people are so upset. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AF= rom: Adam Tobin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.E= DU=0ASent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 8:23:51 PM=0ASubject: Re: anthology=0A= =0AWhat everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems= =0Awere written by a computer algorithm?=C2=A0 =0A=0AIt seems to be a very = sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who "gets=0Ait"; among other t= hings, I am guessing it uses related groups of words=0Atogether as well as = some ideas about poetic form.=C2=A0 Perhaps it is drawing=0Afrom our own po= ems as source texts?=C2=A0 =0A=0AApparently it also passes the Turing Test,= in that most people seem not to=0Anotice that it was not written by a huma= n.=0A=0AKudos to the programmers!=C2=A0 I've spent now several hours with t= he manuscript,=0Aand am finding real poetry within it.=0A=0Aadam tobin=0A= =0APS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially i= f it=0Ais using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -= - it=0Aseems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry= =0ACommunity" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rathe= r=0Athan, say, any one individual typist.=C2=A0 =0A=0AThat attribution may = also apply to the work we usually publish under our own=0Anames, anyway.=0A= =0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not a= ccept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/= poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:23:19 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It all makes me want to go back and re-read Kleist on why puppets are bette= r actors than humans. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Adam = Tobin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent:= Sunday, 5 October, 2008 8:23:51 PM=0ASubject: Re: anthology=0A=0AWhat ever= ybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems=0Awere writ= ten by a computer algorithm?=C2=A0 =0A=0AIt seems to be a very sophisticate= d algorithm, written by somebody who "gets=0Ait"; among other things, I am = guessing it uses related groups of words=0Atogether as well as some ideas a= bout poetic form.=C2=A0 Perhaps it is drawing=0Afrom our own poems as sourc= e texts?=C2=A0 =0A=0AApparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that mos= t people seem not to=0Anotice that it was not written by a human.=0A=0AKudo= s to the programmers!=C2=A0 I've spent now several hours with the manuscrip= t,=0Aand am finding real poetry within it.=0A=0Aadam tobin=0A=0APS Also, if= I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if it=0Ais usin= g vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it=0Aseems p= erfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry=0ACommunity" (= whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather=0Athan, say, = any one individual typist.=C2=A0 =0A=0AThat attribution may also apply to t= he work we usually publish under our own=0Anames, anyway.=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts= . Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= .html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:38:22 -0700 Reply-To: layne@whiteowlweb.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Layne Russell Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thanks, Ron. :) the best part about this for me is that I am next to George Oppen in the = list of contributors. =20 "my poem" actually sounds like poetry, though not mine. what a piece of = programming. Layne Russell =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Samuel Wharton=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 6:20 AM Subject: anthology maybe the best thing about all of this is that everyone listed is now = on silliman's blog! samuel =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:47:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit me too always voting against rather than for On Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:08:58 -0700 steve russell writes: > We're on the same page, Conrad. I almost never vote for a candidate. > I vote against them. I almost wanted to ever so slightly vote for > Obama simply because he claimed he would shift the tax burden to the > very rich. But with the Wallstreet bullshit, how much credence can > anyone put in that Gospel? If McCain croaked, I'd consider voting > for Palin in the hope of a little comic relief, and the even greater > hope that she could ruin what's left of the economy quicker than > anyone else, then lo/behold, here comes Socialism and my team > finally scores, hurrah! > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: CA Conrad > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 2:50:06 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Elizabeth you might have missed that I said brutal things happened > to me and > my mother BECAUSE we were living in a car. Things I didn't get > into, nor > wish to. Instead I brought up those who were generous, and those > who were > generous were also poor. > > In the end my point originally was, and continues to be that what > we're > living in and living with is tantamount to complete madness. > > I've been watching the Sunday morning journalists DEBATE over the > debates > and DEBATE over the bail-out for Wallstreet. What I keep hearing is > "construction is DOWN" "we NEED to stimulate our economy with MORE > construction" .... > > The idea of MORE is a form of madness. We have enough. We've had > enough > for a very long time. The idea of economic stimulation is totally > bizarre > in a country which has a surplus of resources which often get > burned, > dumped, housed in vaults (cheese for instance). > > The Irish are pissing off the British with their INCREDIBLE offer to > open > their banks with fixed protection, and now both McCain and Obama > have called > to raise THOSE VERY STAKES by increasing America's 100,000 federal > banking > protection to 250,000. > > In the end nothing can protect us from the misery of polluted fresh > water, > destroyed and fallow land, and a continued sense of MORE > construction which > only continues to create more pollution, and in a time when more and > more > people are homeless. > > EXCITED for the math meant without abstraction the home run slide to > the end > of all of this. CARING PEOPLE are not people who chillingly pretend > a > million deaths in Iraq are not everyone's responsibility. > > I'm no longer EXCITED for the math as Washington proved its > cowardice once > again. > > We were on a roll, headed toward destruction of one system, a system > which > rewards greed and murder and theft, to one where our government > would be > FORCED to implement structures of aid to those who clearly need it > the most. > > FDR was brilliant because he saw how to offer aid for votes. And I > don't > care what motives he had so long as he helped the poor, which he > did. > Neither of our 2-party candidates have offered substantial evidence > that > they intend to help the poor in real ways. > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:03:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Issues with Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <48E92DE9.4010700@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed What fascinates me is the whole issue of intellectual property - as I mentioned, I've found my work taken, rewritten, recontextualized, reprinted, whatever - and that's great. If you're on the Web or for that matter published in punk etc. stuff you should expect this. I fail to see how any of our reputations are so precious that this is injurious - instead, it's probably the best piece of Net literature (however def.) that's come down the pike so to speak in a long while - it becomes a rorschach test for just about everyone, including myself - a test not only of our own reactions but the web. I admire this incredibly - so many people have downloaded it! as opposed to downloading one or another chapbook that seems somehow narrowed in relation to this ocean. And the ocean of course reflects the Web/Net itself. I have a show up for example on SL and other people have created interventions and you just learn to deal with them - the net's porosity is only going to increase. Re: Below - this anthology wouldn't have worked at all without either the provocation or names of actual authors - that's the strength of it! As far as the net invading privacy and hurting reputations - get used to it; this happens to everyone who has much of an online presence. I think of this action as a kind of creative commons at work - which includes as some have pointed out - all these reactions. And how is this invading privacy? My 'poem' (which I then sent out under my own name) isn't telling any deep dark secrets or giving away tax numbers, whatever. And how even plagiarism could hurt one's rep - I have no idea, but it seems to go back to the usual romantic notions and arguments about the inviolate author. There goes Lautreamont. - Alan On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Patrick Dillon wrote: > This morning I was pleased to see that my friend Steve McLaughlin is getting > a lot of attention for his collaborative work Issue 1. I was also pleased to > discover that I am included in the anthology. Many people are, > understandably, unhappy. Depending on how one looks at it, those included are > either the recipients of a gift or victims. The reaction seems rather split. > Steve has more confidence than I do that it will be able to remain on the > web, but I am enjoying the dialog it has triggered on its own page, > Silliman's Blog, Amy King's Alias, and Harriet. > > Issue 1 is edited by Steve and Jim Carpenter. The website lists Steve, > Vladimir Zykov, and Gregory Laynor as co-researchers. There seems to be a lot > of poor speculation about the authorship of the poems. For those who are not > familiar with Jim Carpenter or who won't take the five minutes to research > him, he is the creator of Erica T Carter or etc3, a random poem generator. > The poems attributed to the authors of Issue 1 are most likely randomly > generated poems using this software or another of Jim's creations. > > The problem with this anthology is that it directly provokes an array of > actual authors. Personally, I am flattered to be included in this anthology > (no doubt because of my personal friendship with Steve), but I do sympathize > with those that are unhappy to have their names included. My girlfriend, a > law student not included in this anthology, has great fear about the > potential of the internet to invade privacy and hurt reputations. Although I > may not share these anxieties, I respect her opinion and have learned from > it. People may be genuinely upset when false actions are attributed to them. > So, in my opinion, this is a rather disrespectful piece of art. > > That disrespect will be a pro for some, a con for others. While this is > intentionally provocative, we must admit that the stakes are very small, and > anyone with half a brain or an internet connection will know that these are > unoriginal works. So what is the actual harm? Therefore, we must also > recognize Steve and Jim's bravado. > > The merit of this piece results from the collision of theory and the real > world.We could use more of this interaction in almost every aspect of our > lives. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 16:38:35 -0700 Reply-To: layne@whiteowlweb.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Layne Russell Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable interesting idea, Dillon. =20 well, forgodot.com has certainly upped its readership, at least for this = window of time. thanks to Jim for the background on Jim Carpenter.=20 Layne Russell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dillon Westbrook=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty obvious =20 to me that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro =20 (i.e. the 3,785 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual =20 anthology, on this list and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment =20 chapter has no problems of dubious authorship, unless any of us =20 besides Steve McLaughlin have been hacked in the recent past. signed, Dillon Westbrook (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >> > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/=20 > 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > > > i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. > > jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was =20 > writing that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was =20 > that he was primarily interested in trying to get the program to =20 > write 'original', interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the = > poems were 'based' on other texts (used them as 'seed' material), =20 > but the algorithms produced work that could include as much or =20 > apparently as little of the originals as one liked. so that the =20 > result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the 'original' but = > otherwise not be particularly recognizable. > > the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to =20 > anything i've written. > > if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that =20 > you could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new =20 > one 'based on' what you fed it. > > the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a =20 > professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these =20 > sorts of projects. > > sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. > > i expect jim is the brains behind this project. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 00:55:10 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: colin herd Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <7E490C5A-0D73-4BC3-B83A-2044487B6BF1@mac.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The list of names HAS in part to be from silliman's blog roll since i am on that, i am in Issue 1, but have never had any other poetry published. (which is a little funny i guess but pointless)... which means it's a lazy way of doing it. why should i be in it?... On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Dillon Westbrook wrote: > I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty obvious to me > that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro (i.e. the 3,785 > 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, on this list > and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems of dubious > authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been hacked in > the recent past. > > signed, > Dillon Westbrook > (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) > > > > On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >>> >>> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ >> 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html >> >> >> i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. >> >> jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was writing >> that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that he was >> primarily interested in trying to get the program to write 'original', >> interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were 'based' on >> other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms produced work >> that could include as much or apparently as little of the originals as one >> liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the >> 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. >> >> the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to >> anything i've written. >> >> if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that you >> could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new one 'based >> on' what you fed it. >> >> the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a >> professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these sorts of >> projects. >> >> sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. >> >> i expect jim is the brains behind this project. >> >> ja >> http://vispo.com >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 21:30:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "j. kuszai" Subject: cuny social forum Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed ***CALLING ALL STUDENTS*** ################# ANOTHER CUNY IS POSSIBLE! ################# CUNY SOCIAL FORUM @ CITY COLLEGE, OCT. 17-19th 2008 www.cunysocialforum.com The CUNY Social Forum will be a gathering of students, faculty, staff and alumni, of all CUNY campuses, who have come together to create a more accountable, accessible, and democratic CUNY. We want a CUNY that is accountable to the students and surrounding NYC community, accessible to all New Yorkers seeking higher education, and a CUNY that is truly democratic, where students, faculty, and the community have meaningful decision-making power. The forum will feature workshops and panel discussion on a wide-array of issues, including student movements (past and present) across CUNY; institutional racism and unequal access to Senior Colleges; and working for social justice in the classroom. The many communities of CUNY will be participating as well, discussing issues such as housing, healthcare, human rights, the prison industrial and child welafre complexes. For a full list of workshops and panels, visit our website and feel free to contact us cunysocialforum@gmail.com with questions and concerns. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:00:32 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FDR put people into concentration camps and had food destroyed to drive up the prices during the Great Depression. That's what poor people need: higher food prices. Yet, that's what Obama promises: higher prices for everything. He's promising to raise taxes on corporations, which is a great idea if you want to raise prices on American-made goods, since that's what will happen. Corporations don't pay taxes, they just pass on the cost of taxes in higher prices. And if they can't do that, they will move someplace else where the cost of doing business is better, which will cost people jobs. The poor and the working classes are then hurt. Further, Obama has promised to raise tariffs. Great idea: raise prices once again on goods. Of course, that should make it easier for domestic companies to raise their prices once he raises their taxes. It will all get passed down to the poor. Personally, I don't like Obama's version of trickle down economics. But it certainly does sound like FDR. Of course, the tariffs that went up during the Great Depression were what drove Japan to go to war with the U.S. since they considered those tariffs to be an attempt by the U.S. to attack their economy. Who is Obama threatening with his tariffs? Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: CA Conrad To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 1:50:06 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Elizabeth you might have missed that I said brutal things happened to me and my mother BECAUSE we were living in a car. Things I didn't get into, nor wish to. Instead I brought up those who were generous, and those who were generous were also poor. In the end my point originally was, and continues to be that what we're living in and living with is tantamount to complete madness. I've been watching the Sunday morning journalists DEBATE over the debates and DEBATE over the bail-out for Wallstreet. What I keep hearing is "construction is DOWN" "we NEED to stimulate our economy with MORE construction" .... The idea of MORE is a form of madness. We have enough. We've had enough for a very long time. The idea of economic stimulation is totally bizarre in a country which has a surplus of resources which often get burned, dumped, housed in vaults (cheese for instance). The Irish are pissing off the British with their INCREDIBLE offer to open their banks with fixed protection, and now both McCain and Obama have called to raise THOSE VERY STAKES by increasing America's 100,000 federal banking protection to 250,000. In the end nothing can protect us from the misery of polluted fresh water, destroyed and fallow land, and a continued sense of MORE construction which only continues to create more pollution, and in a time when more and more people are homeless. EXCITED for the math meant without abstraction the home run slide to the end of all of this. CARING PEOPLE are not people who chillingly pretend a million deaths in Iraq are not everyone's responsibility. I'm no longer EXCITED for the math as Washington proved its cowardice once again. We were on a roll, headed toward destruction of one system, a system which rewards greed and murder and theft, to one where our government would be FORCED to implement structures of aid to those who clearly need it the most. FDR was brilliant because he saw how to offer aid for votes. And I don't care what motives he had so long as he helped the poor, which he did. Neither of our 2-party candidates have offered substantial evidence that they intend to help the poor in real ways. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:46:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: re antholgies: prison planet poetry of panaromic, panopticonic,panegryic, paranoic, paramilitary, parataxic, paranormal, anthologizers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline There are some lists whose names --if one is upset about being in an anthology of this kind--one may be glad not to find one's listed among-- as see the below video re prisons and prisoners in the USA from Brasscheck TV and a little story that is true abt the creation of one form of an anthology--as truly, think on how many are the infinite possibilities! i made a little zine anthology ages ago in which all the art work and writing etc was done by quite different writers and artists--and al had interesting names--and all of them were myself-- yet persons who purchased it were amazed at the variety of works included--and the newness of these names--to their ears and eyes--and some of the truly wild styles some had-- yes--did one ever tell them who the "real" "author" is? why of course not!-- for were not as they made those pieces those people in a sense truly existing and this is what gave such force and reality to their works-- yes for --they had existed as they worked--and as they were read and looked at, all these-- who?-- here is one way to make an anthology of the writings and writers of a city-- "The man had been a cab driver for twelve years in Boston. He was an amphetamine addict, a "speed freak." Speed optimised his efficiency and endurance on the job. As time and miles went by the taxi driver constructed a vast system of references--a language--made up of the city's geography, people's conversations and the signs he saw everywhere. As addiction, time, miles and signs accelerated it became evident that an apocalyptic crash was imminent. An uncanny conspiracy was afoot and the cab driver became wary of each passenger who hailed him. He never refused anyone a ride, because anyone or everyone could supply information. Finally the taxi driver decided he had enough information to go to the authorities. He went to the FBI building at Government Center and told them a dangerous conspiracy was threatening the whole city with chaos. When asked for evidence the taxi cab driver gave the agents the Boston Telephone Directory. --'All the names are here.'" from "Heroin is King, Reagan is God" by Chirot There are many ways to make anthologies, many ways to find names and create lists, and many a way also to "round up the usual suspects"--for a good old rendition flight-- to the tropical islands!! "Guantanamera!!--" ah the strains of that song echo out over the old Guantanamo Bay, making the trees around the Famous Prison dance with the maddening allure of swaying hips-- Ah!! where someday America will reinstall the true meaning of Cuba Libre as just another wonderful drink at the very nice bars that line the newly upholstered Havana of the wet dreams of "entrepreneurs" in al the world's oldest and newest professions, with a few other variations added, "just to celebrate,"-- behind the very tightly closed doors, to be sure--!--yes-- For one may find in this atmosphere how prisons and anthologies, are they not, are in many ways related,while appearing on the surface also not to be so-- (the camouflage principle as used in literature--the uses of disguise, undercover tricks--the aly allusion to the Trojan Horse!--) (I can see her now, the Lenscrafter Lady of Liberty, winking, saying breathlessly, "you betcha!") On one side of the Bay the Prison and across from it, the Literary Houses--where anthologies pour forth of the incredibly heteronymic array of wildly varying in quality and style works of what is in fact a single very patient poet, a very old ex-prisoner of Castro's who now makes up anthologies of a Poetry which has never existed until now--with all the patience of one who has spent eternities in the unlimited expanses of time of sentences which were never throughly made clear--"incomplete sentences" as the old prisoner poet thinks of them--in terms of that "grammatology of correction" which he has also begun to create as he paints away at the final images of the present collection-- if he cannot think of a name to affix to the poems and visual poems he is providing for his poets, he simply picks up old tattered copies of long out of date phone books, or the latest listings of names from the funeral parlors, the dedications of military cemeteries or the colorful sobriquets of the new breed of young professionals who sachet past him in the shimmering heat-- yes, for a wonderful Yankee publisher and editor, the old man is creating a whole fantasy world of Caribbean Poets, already to be packaged up and sent off to Miami and broadcast from there to all the known corners of the Free World, that giant sloppy and messily but cunningly inky octopus that has being busy with its eight arms in enfolding al the forgotten and by passed literaturess of previously "Unfree" peoples into its huge and heavy bosom, a Bosom to end all Bosoms, as vast and mysterious as that of its mother, the Sea-- The old ex-prisoner does this as he gazes out at the shining American prison across the bay-- so much more up-to-date than his old huants!! so much improved it is said, that he is very glad he was never sent there-- for will the world not always have prisons--just as much as poets--and may not the anthologies have become confused--so that anthologies of poets are of ones who should be in prison and those--as yet uncompiled anthologies--of the prisoners--might they not be those of the real poets-- or in fact they might all be mixed up--and some belong here and others there and stil others who knows might they not just be tossed iinto the shark infested waters--or simply --left out, to wander aimlessly and without knowing what kind of poetry they belong to until at last finding peace in a nice shady grove or alcove or bar-- where someone is sure to find them and tell them just what kind of poetry they are-- so one person's anthology is another's prison, and one person's prison is indeed an anthology compiled by those who have been filling it with their ideas of prisoners-- but then-- Ah! to find one's name on yet another list, included in yet another "collection," rounded up with the usual suspects, subjected to yet more "harsh interrogations of the text," battered about by yet more "probing of bodily embedded inscription and encryption cavities," to be stood naked before the howling glistening healthy jowls of young men, women and dogs as one's "gestural writings" are symbolically dismantled into the appropriate forms for further deconstruction brought on by the application of the electric "rock and roll" "Vitus' Dance" torture, to be followed by the "rosy fingered dawn" of the near drowning in the waters of Oblivion, those perilous waters into which identity is thrust to the point almost of losing its authorial being, and becoming yet another "anonymous Wall scribbler of unspeakable perversity and criminality," yet another "forgotten writer" lost in the sands of time . . . Yes--to think on how many lists one' s name is found this whole wide world, and in whose possesion!! And then to see with whom else one is thrown into association with on these lists!! And never to be told the exact reason why!! And, worse than that--to be "mis quoted!" To have "one's words taken out of context," or "right out of one's mouth," or--shoved into one's throat, words to choke on, words to strangle with, words to carry one down to the depths from which poetry springs forth as no more than the last screams of a once human body . . . the finality of poetry's dying sounds in the stage setting of death, surrounded by onlookers who are noting down the time it takes to expire and fade away, whether it is with a a rattle or a whisper, a last murmured prayer or simply the sound of air escaping the broken wind pipe--the stove in ribs--the snapped spine-- Yes, think on how many anthologies one appears in already, as an "unknown" person other than name numbers fingerprints dna samples voice prints video surveillance images bank and credit print outs phone records police blotters mentions in the high school paper mentions in the bulletin of the society for the preservation of the such and such--think how many signatures of yours exist in this world!--in so many different media and codes--how many different images recordings and notations--how many records kept by ones one never knew kept records-- and, as well, the invented records, if need be, the doctored photos, the altered voice recordings, the slyly shifted statements given to a conference, the mistranslated and distranslated versions of one's pronouncements-- the "experimental writing exercises in translation" that have taken your writings and turned them into a barrel of laughs or a symbol of the worn out rag of the rag and bone shop where even the bones are laughing at the rag's pitifullness-- Yes think on all these lists this wide world round and al the anthologies of worst songs, worst baseball trades, best dressed emmy award winners, worst dictators, best Marxists, the most fabulous and really swingin hot spots,the very truest in its depiction of all narratives of the wars no one living has ever seen-- Yes, so many lists and so many "anthologies" this wide world kept by so many demographers politicos literary subscription sellers campaigns for such and such and the lists just keep getting bigger and bigger and -- soon enough everyone living and dead is included in one huge anthology--if only for a nanosecond-- before the next death and birth have altered it--and who shall cry out for the unborn writers and poets? and who shall mourn those dead before their time? and what abt those writers who never wrote a word yet were the living flower of poetry itself-- what is Poetry itself were to miraculously appear in Judgement and looking around--be bitterly disappointed!! enraged--or bursting at the seams with laughter! and were to say in a very loud voice O Poets--how many of you there are that in my name are always already writing fake poetry? Why how very very few there are after al that are writing Real Poetry--!! Would not that Poetry be charged and demolished!! Would not Poetry also be cast into those Guantanamos and Abu Ghraibs, those Bagrams, where are created the latest productions of the "New Extreme Experimental American Poetry and Arts--"-- Or perhaps kept at home in the Homeland Security of the World 's most emprisoned population--? FROM BRASSCHECK TV, 5 Ocotber 2008: David The US has a higher percentage of its population behind bars than any other country in the world: more than China, more than Russia, more than any backwater dictatorship. Roughly 1 out of every 142 US residents is behind bars. This gulag system is fantastically profitable for the companies that build and manage prisons...for the companies that supply them...for the prison guard unions...and for the state itself which sells prison labor to private corporations for pennies on the dollar. Who are these two million plus people behind bars in the US? Are they all monsters the public has to be protected from or has incarceration become an addictive business for the state? Is that's the case, how safe are any of us in the long run? These are questions a freedom loving people should be asking itself. A unique perspective on inmates and prisons here: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/440.html - Brasscheck P.S. Please share Brasscheck TV e-mails and videos with friends and colleagues. That's how our alternative news service grows. Thanks. - Brasscheck P.S. Please share Brasscheck TV e-mails and videos with friends and colleagues. That's how we grow. Thanks. ============================== Brasscheck TV 2380 California St. San Francisco, CA 94115 To unsubscribe or change subscriber options visit: http://www.aweber.com/z/r/?zAxs7OwctMwczGzsHKwctEa0zBwcDAwsnA== ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:36:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: On behalf of Daniel Zimmerman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Daniel Zimmerman Date: Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 10:57 PM I will read at the Barron Arts Center 582 Rahway Avenue Woodbridge, NJ 07095 Tel# 732-634-0413 on October 8th at 8:00 p.m. An open reading will follow. I hope a few listees can join me for Poets Wednesday's 30th season. ~ Daniel Zimmerman ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:13:55 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <838028.92016.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for everyone. Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal naivety the order of the day? A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:47:07 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Kate Colby and Matvei Yankelevich at SPT 10/10/08 (at CCA's Oakland Campus) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Friday, October 10, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. Kate Colby and Matvei Yankelevich at the CCA Oakland Campus, Nahl Hall 5212 Broadway in Oakland Join us! Kate Colby is the author of Unbecoming Behavior (Ugly Duckling Presse, 2008) and Fruitlands (Litmus Press, 2006), which received a Norma Farber First Book Award from the Poetry Society of America. Recent writing has appeared in Aufgabe, New American Writing and NO: a journal of the arts. She lives in Providence, RI, where she works as a copywriter and editor. Matvei Yankelevich is the author of a long poem, THE PRESENT WORK (Palm Press, 2006). His translations of Russian poetry & prose have been published in several anthologies and in periodicals including Harpers, New American Writing, and The New Yorker. He is the translator of TODAY I WROTE NOTHING: THE SELECTED WRITINGS OF DANIIL KHARMS (Overlook, 2007) and a co-translator of OBERIU: AN ANTHOLOGY OF RUSSIAN ABSURDISM (Northwestern, 2006). His translation of Vladimir Mayakovsky's poem "A Cloud in Pants" is included in NIGHT WRAPS THE SKY: WRITINGS BY AND ABOUT MAYAKOVSKY (FSG, 2008). His writing has appeared in Boston Review, Damn the Caesars, Fence, Octopus, Open City, Typo, and various other literary journals. He teaches Russian Literature at Hunter College in NYC and volunteers as en editor in the collective of Ugly Duckling Presse. He lives in Brooklyn. Please note the special location for the above event! Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Please note that this reading will be held at CCA's Oakland campus in Nahl Hall. For directions to the Oakland campus: http://www.cca.edu/about/directions.php We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 04:41:03 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: In Florida stop by Comments: cc: "Golata, Russ" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable October 7 @ 7pm =20 The Orlando Poetry Group presents: 1st Tuesdays @ The Daily Grind 807 N. Orange Ave Orlando, Fl 32801 407 839-4009 =20 Featuring Brad Kuhn &=20 Darlyn Finch =20 A special evening with Darlyn and Brad Followed by an open Mic, where YOU shine =20 Hosted By Russ Golata blacksox@att.net 407-403-5814 Brad Kuhn is not only a wonderful poet and writer himself but he is driving= force behind Kerouac House.If you are not familiar with The writers in res= idence project: The Jack Kerouac Writers in Residence Project of Orlando, Inc. is working t= o further Kerouac's legacy in Orlando, where he was living when On the Road= was published. Darlyn Finch is a Florida native, born and raised in Jacksonville. She atte= nded Ed White high school before obtaining her Associate of Arts degree at = Florida Junior College. She holds a bachelors degree as an English major, W= riting minor from Rollins College in Winter Park. Darlyn is currently pursu= ing a Master of Fine Arts in Creative Nonfiction/Poetry from Spalding Unive= rsity in Louisville, Kentucky. She is also responsible for Sunscibbles--the= heatbeat newsletter of Central Florida. Where would we all be without it. Come on out and support these worderful folks Peace=20 Russ Golata =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:13:51 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there are several friends of mine who are lit bloggers that aren't poets and aren't on silliman's blog roll who are also in the anthology. On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, colin herd wrote: > The list of names HAS in part to be from silliman's blog roll since > i am on > that, i am in Issue 1, but have never had any other poetry > published. (which > is a little funny i guess but pointless)... which means it's a lazy > way of > doing it. why should i be in it?... > > On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Dillon Westbrook > wrote: > >> I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty >> obvious to me >> that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro (i.e. >> the 3,785 >> 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, on >> this list >> and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems of >> dubious >> authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been >> hacked in >> the recent past. >> >> signed, >> Dillon Westbrook >> (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) >> >> >> >> On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >>>> >>>> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ >>> 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html >>> >>> >>> i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. >>> >>> jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/ >>> was writing >>> that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that he was >>> primarily interested in trying to get the program to write >>> 'original', >>> interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were >>> 'based' on >>> other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms >>> produced work >>> that could include as much or apparently as little of the >>> originals as one >>> liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' >>> resemble the >>> 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. >>> >>> the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to >>> anything i've written. >>> >>> if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such >>> that you >>> could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new >>> one 'based >>> on' what you fed it. >>> >>> the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a >>> professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these >>> sorts of >>> projects. >>> >>> sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. >>> >>> i expect jim is the brains behind this project. >>> >>> ja >>> http://vispo.com >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:52:04 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Roy Exley Subject: Re: Fake anthology Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 'DEAD AUTHOR - FOUND DISMEMBERED BY ALGORITHMS - REMAINS UNIDENTIFIED' Proposition made by the French writer Roland Barthes seems to have become horribly true as panic sweeps the Poetics List. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:11:55 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Leonard Gontarek (Philly!) & harrykstammer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now up on PFS Post: new poems from Philly's own Leonard Gontarek and from L= os Angeles resident harrykstammer: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 Enjoy! Ad =A0 =A0 Books! "When You Bit..." http://www.lulu.com/content/3100247 "Opera Bufa" http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 =A0=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:18:09 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Anthology Spoiler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From the Harriet Blog this a.m. --=20 I received the following email from Stephen McLaughlin this afternoon, who = asked me to post this here: =20 "One morning about a month ago, I received a message from the Poetics List that began something like 'Announcing Issue 1 of Broken Caterpillar. Featuring new poems by . . . followed by a list of 45 poet's names. I'd seen one of them on Silliman's blogroll, but the rest were just flat names. Barely names -- ethereal text strings. Keep in mind that I receive hundreds of these announcements per year. Continued at Harriet -- http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/antholo= gy_spoiler.html#comments=A0=20 Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I view it that way too and do have the feeling that it throws up interesting theoretical issues about authorship in the Age of the Computer/Web. Moreover, it does, in a very funny way, write for those of us who may be experiencing the "writer's block"! This is not being cynical; I'm dead serious! -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Adam Tobin To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 9:23:51 PM Subject: Re: anthology What everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems were written by a computer algorithm? It seems to be a very sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who "gets it"; among other things, I am guessing it uses related groups of words together as well as some ideas about poetic form. Perhaps it is drawing from our own poems as source texts? Apparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that most people seem not to notice that it was not written by a human. Kudos to the programmers! I've spent now several hours with the manuscript, and am finding real poetry within it. adam tobin PS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if it is using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it seems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry Community" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather than, say, any one individual typist. That attribution may also apply to the work we usually publish under our own names, anyway. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:26:38 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Damn! I like this Jim guy. Could you link me up with him. He must be the craziest literary techno I've ever heard of. -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Andrews To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:08:41 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was writing that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that he was primarily interested in trying to get the program to write 'original', interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were 'based' on other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms produced work that could include as much or apparently as little of the originals as one liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to anything i've written. if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that you could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new one 'based on' what you fed it. the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these sorts of projects. sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. i expect jim is the brains behind this project. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 10.06.08-10.12.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 LITERARY BUFFALO 10.06.08-10.12.08 MEMBER-ONLY BABEL BOOK DISCUSSION AT BETTY=E2=80=99S Monday, October 6th, 7:00 pm - Things Fall Apart, by Chinua Achebe Anthropologist Phil Stevens will lead a discussion about cultural themes in= Things Fall Apart, drawing on his experiences in Nigeria from the 1960s th= rough the 1990s. Call 832.5400 or visit justbuffalo.org to join today. There will be a Just= Buffalo staff member on hand in case you want to join when you arrive. ___________________________________________________________________________ EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 10.06.08 Hallwalls Bill Sylvester Monologues/Dialogues: Aeschylus' Oresteia Monday, October 6, 7:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave (=40 Tupper) & Exhibit X Fiction =7C Prose Bragi =C3=93lafsson Fiction Reading Monday, October 6, 8:O0 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, Elmwood & North 10.07.08 Rust Belt Books N.A. Terranova Reading from her new book 'Once About the Crescent...' Tuesday, October 7, 6:00 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 10.08.08 Talking Leaves...Books Gregory Lamberson Reading/Signing for: Johnny Gruesome Wednesday, October 8, 7:00 PM Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. 10.09.08 Talking Leaves...Books/Slipstream/NCCC Carrie Shipers & Arthur Taylor Reading/Signing for: Slipstream Thursday, October 9, 7:O0 PM Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. 10.10.08 Talking Leaves...Books Tom Phillips Reading/Signing for: The Molech Prophecy Friday, October 10, 7:00 PM Talking Leaves...Books, 3158 Main St. 10.11.08 Just Buffalo/Interdisciplinary Performance Series One World Tribe Plus Poetry by Vonetta Rhodes & Ten Thousand Saturday, October 11, 8:00 PM Center for Inquiry, 1310 Sweet Home Rd., Amherst ___________________________________________________________________________ CHAUTAUQUA WRITING WEEK WITH KAREN LEWIS Karen L. Lewis invites you to attend a week-long writing workshop at The Sp= encer Hotel and Spa, located in the heart of the Chautauqua Institution, fr= om October 27-31, 2008. Visit http://www.thespencer.com/writersworkshops/in= dex.htm for more info. ____________________________________________________= _______________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS? WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP The Just Buffalo Writer Critique Group meets on the first and third Wednesd= ay of the month through fall, winter and spring. Group meets in the Market = Arcade first floor conference room at 6:30 PM. For info on format, etc., pl= ease download the info .pdf: http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=C3=A1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, o= r to join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:05:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the world. Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Alison Croggon To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for everyone. Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal naivety the order of the day? A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Anthology Spoiler Comments: To: amyhappens@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <259141.43979.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow, the list hasn't been this hoppin' in years! reminds me of my father's old quip: "We haven't had this much fun since the rats ate the baby." Usually i only get to use that line at department meetings. amy king wrote: > From the Harriet Blog this a.m. -- > > I received the following email from Stephen McLaughlin this afternoon, who asked me to post this here: > > > "One morning about a month ago, I received a message from the > Poetics List that began something like 'Announcing Issue 1 of Broken > Caterpillar. Featuring new poems by . . . followed by a list of 45 > poet's names. I'd seen one of them on Silliman's blogroll, but the rest > were just flat names. Barely names -- ethereal text strings. Keep in > mind that I receive hundreds of these announcements per year. > Continued at Harriet -- http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/anthology_spoiler.html#comments > > > Amy > > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:35:20 -0400 Reply-To: afilreis@writing.upenn.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Organization: University of Pennsylvania Subject: PoemTalk #11: Erica Hunt's voice of no MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today we are happily releasing PoemTalk #11, a discussion of Erica Hunt's "The Voice of No" with Elizabeth Willis, Julia Bloch, and Jessica Lowenthal: http://www.poemtalk.org http://www.poetryfoundation.org/ All PoemTalk episodes are available on ITunes. Search "PoemTalk" in the music store search box. - Al Filreis -- Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit However funny (offendingly funny, so to speak)as it may seem, I find it hard to dissuade myself from an awkward thought of late. Especially after hearing Sarah Palin's English pronounciation of names of certain countries during last Thursday's Vice Presidential debate. In any country as racially diverse as the USA, language accent undoubtedly reflects the nature of the demographics. That's a given. However, in the recent times, names of countries beginning with the letter "I" are pronounced in a manner that almost invariably seems to reveal the speakers feelings (or political opinion) about those countries. This might be of interest to linguistic anthropologists. My personal polling has shown this to be more of a problem with the very right-wing Republican tongue. Anyway, the issue is this - many Americans tend to pronounce Iraq and Iran as I-raq ("eye-raq") [instead of "ee-raaQ" which is the correct accent] and I-ran ("eye-raN") [instead of ee-raaN], whereas ally's and friends are called Israel (ee-sraayel) and/or India (ee-ndia). Of course why the margin of accentual error is so narrow in the case of "Ireland" is another story and since most of us are totally nonchalant about a country called "Iceland", we tend to pronounce the name conventionally. Aryanil ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Glenn Bach Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each with a different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this point I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new project. Huzzah. G. Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:42:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mathias Svalina Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <496791.21793.qm@web65104.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Puppets can make great poets as well: http://www.effingpress.com/lester.htm On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > It all makes me want to go back and re-read Kleist on why puppets are better actors than humans. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Adam Tobin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 8:23:51 PM > Subject: Re: anthology > > What everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems > were written by a computer algorithm? > > It seems to be a very sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who "gets > it"; among other things, I am guessing it uses related groups of words > together as well as some ideas about poetic form. Perhaps it is drawing > from our own poems as source texts? > > Apparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that most people seem not to > notice that it was not written by a human. > > Kudos to the programmers! I've spent now several hours with the manuscript, > and am finding real poetry within it. > > adam tobin > > PS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if it > is using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it > seems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry > Community" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather > than, say, any one individual typist. > > That attribution may also apply to the work we usually publish under our own > names, anyway. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:48:23 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am definitely incorporating "my" anthology poem into my work. This whole = thing has been a great stimulus. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A= From: Glenn Bach =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0ASent: Monday, 6 October, 2008 8:09:04 PM=0ASubject: Re: fake anthology= =0A=0AI don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each wit= h a =0Adifferent spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach.=C2=A0 At th= is point =0AI'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new= project.=0A=0AHuzzah.=0A=0AG.=0A=0A=0AJason Quackenbush wrote:=0A=0A> I lo= ve it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that?=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guid= elines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:12:08 -0700 Reply-To: Listen & Be Heard Editor Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: Open Mic Radio Tuesday night 8-9pm PST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Date / Time: 10/7/2008 8:00 PM Call-in Number: (718) 506-1481 The show will feature announcements posted at Listen & Be Heard Network Arts News, including opportunities for arts professionals. Calls to announce opportunities or events are welcome. It is also an open mic for poets. Depending on the time, there might also be some storytelling and arts editorializing, but we'd rather hear from you. Schedule 10/14/2008 8:00 PM - L&BH Radio Hour Oct. 14 10/21/2008 8:00 PM - L&BH Radio Hour Oct. 21 10/28/2008 8:00 PM - L&BH Radio Hour Oct. 28 Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:17:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias In-Reply-To: <4D7E05EC928A40DA99C39F7DB2B30C17@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline As an American who spends much time in a lefty academic bubble, I hear short-I for Iran and Iraq almost exclusively; but I also hear short-I for India and Israel, exclusively. You've noted a long-I pronunciation of India and Israel among (conservative) Americans? I'm both fascinated and skeptical.... On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > However funny (offendingly funny, so to speak)as it may seem, I find it > hard > to dissuade myself from an awkward thought of late. Especially after > hearing > Sarah Palin's English pronounciation of names of certain countries during > last Thursday's Vice Presidential debate. > > In any country as racially diverse as the USA, language accent undoubtedly > reflects the nature of the demographics. That's a given. However, in the > recent times, names of countries beginning with the letter "I" are > pronounced in a manner that almost invariably seems to reveal the speakers > feelings (or political opinion) about those countries. This might be of > interest to linguistic anthropologists. My personal polling has shown this > to be more of a problem with the very right-wing Republican tongue. > > Anyway, the issue is this - many Americans tend to pronounce Iraq and Iran > as I-raq ("eye-raq") [instead of "ee-raaQ" which is the correct accent] > and > I-ran ("eye-raN") [instead of ee-raaN], whereas ally's and friends are > called Israel (ee-sraayel) and/or India (ee-ndia). > > Of course why the margin of accentual error is so narrow in the case of > "Ireland" is another story and since most of us are totally nonchalant > about > a country called "Iceland", we tend to pronounce the name conventionally. > > Aryanil > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- V. Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas (702) 895-3623 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 13:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Glenn Bach To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each with a different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this point I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new project. Huzzah. G. Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Ana_Bo=BEi=E8evi=E6?= Subject: Oct 30! State of the Union reading! Asbhery, Chelotti, Ellis, Flynn, Knox, Myles, Svalina, Van der Vliet Oloomi, Willis and Zucker! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline New Yorkers and neighbors, come rally! Bring friends! and let's flame into the election week together. *State of the Union: A Poetry Reading* *John Ashbery, Dan Chelotti, Thomas Sayers Ellis, Nick Flynn, Caroline Knox, Eileen Myles, Mathias Svalina, Azareen Van der Vliet Oloomi, Elizabeth Willis and Rachel Zucker * October 30, Thursday, 6:30pm The Amie and Tony James Gallery The Graduate Center, CUNY 365 Fifth Avenue at 34th Street New York, NY ~Sponsored by Wave Books and The Center for the Humanities~ William Carlos Williams wrote: "It is difficult/to get the news from poems/ yet men die miserably every day/ for lack/ of what is found there." Join the contributors to the Wave Books anthology *State of the Union: 50 Political Poems* to get the news in Linda Pollack's Habeas Lounge in the week of the Presidential election! With John Ashbery, Dan Chelotti, Thomas Sayers Ellis, Nick Flynn, Caroline Knox, Eileen Myles, Mathias Svalina, Azareen Van der Vliet Oloomi, Elizabeth Willis and Rachel Zucker. THE EVENT IS FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC For more information about the Habeas Lounge exhibit, please visit the Amie and Tony James Gallery at http://www.gc.cuny.edu/events/art_gallery.htm. Visit the anthology here: http://www.wavepoetry.com/catalog/66-state-of-the-union?page=&by=new Contact: Ana Bozicevic, abozicevic@gc.cuny.edu http://centerforthehumanitiesgc.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:37:29 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <482035.57825.qm@web54409.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I also had a similar thought today that zigzagged my mind, that I am not writing anything, that is what I thought! On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > I view it that way too and do have the feeling that it throws up > interesting theoretical issues about authorship in the Age of the > Computer/Web. Moreover, it does, in a very funny way, write for those of us > who may be experiencing the "writer's block"! This is not being cynical; I'm > dead serious! > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Adam Tobin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 9:23:51 PM > Subject: Re: anthology > > What everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems > were written by a computer algorithm? > > It seems to be a very sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who > "gets > it"; among other things, I am guessing it uses related groups of words > together as well as some ideas about poetic form. Perhaps it is drawing > from our own poems as source texts? > > Apparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that most people seem not to > notice that it was not written by a human. > > Kudos to the programmers! I've spent now several hours with the > manuscript, > and am finding real poetry within it. > > adam tobin > > PS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if > it > is using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it > seems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry > Community" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather > than, say, any one individual typist. > > That attribution may also apply to the work we usually publish under our > own > names, anyway. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:39:16 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Anthology Spoiler In-Reply-To: <48EA29FD.1080100@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline :-) I was also observing that it is funny that the anthology appeared when the financial markets are eating down the meager earnings of working people. What a coincidence, anybody knows better? On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Maria Damon wrote: > wow, the list hasn't been this hoppin' in years! > reminds me of my father's old quip: "We haven't had this much fun since the > rats ate the baby." Usually i only get to use that line at department > meetings. > > > amy king wrote: > >> From the Harriet Blog this a.m. -- >> I received the following email from Stephen McLaughlin this afternoon, who >> asked me to post this here: >> >> "One morning about a month ago, I received a message from the >> Poetics List that began something like 'Announcing Issue 1 of Broken >> Caterpillar. Featuring new poems by . . . followed by a list of 45 >> poet's names. I'd seen one of them on Silliman's blogroll, but the rest >> were just flat names. Barely names -- ethereal text strings. Keep in >> mind that I receive hundreds of these announcements per year. >> Continued at Harriet -- >> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/anthology_spoiler.html#comments >> >> Amy >> >> >> _______ >> >> >> >> >> >> Recent work >> >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> >> >> Amy's Alias >> >> http://amyking.org/ >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:02:45 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <9637.49320.qm@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You can have my fictional self. My life is strange enough limited to reality (I think). Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your > fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Glenn Bach > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each with a > different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this point > I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new project. > > Huzzah. > > G. > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:21:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70810061337l50dad7fex426b9b8e74e08c58@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Did you think that as you wrote this? ;) Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 6, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I also had a similar thought today that zigzagged my mind, that I am > not > writing anything, that is what I thought! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <9637.49320.qm@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My friend Eric Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he wouldn't mind if you swipe the minimalist ditty of his. On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Glenn Bach > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each > with a > different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this > point > I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new > project. > > Huzzah. > > G. > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: one of my favorite people on the current economic crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Naomi Klein spoke at the University of Chicago last week. This transcript is something MARVELOUS to behold, fresh off the press and provided by another one of my favorite people, Amy Goodman: click here to read: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/6/naomi_klein my presidential DREAM TICKET: Goodman and Klein CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com (if you click on PhillySound and look at today's 10/06/08 post you'll see that poet and former presidential candidate Eileen Myles is being harassed by the IRS) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:30:57 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <942293.88791.qm@web46208.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious decline), the US and Australia. And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in our own backyard. A On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the world. > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > everyone. > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > naivety the order of the day? > > A > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:41:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in minnesota, the long-I for Italian and even Tibetan (!) are very common. I've even heard eye-talian from waiters in supposedly Italian restaurants. The news that this is an ethnic slur has not reached the great midwest, apparently. Nick LoLordo wrote: > As an American who spends much time in a lefty academic bubble, > I hear short-I for Iran and Iraq almost exclusively; > but I also hear short-I for India and Israel, exclusively. > > You've noted a long-I pronunciation of India and Israel among (conservative) > Americans? I'm both fascinated and skeptical.... > > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > >> However funny (offendingly funny, so to speak)as it may seem, I find it >> hard >> to dissuade myself from an awkward thought of late. Especially after >> hearing >> Sarah Palin's English pronounciation of names of certain countries during >> last Thursday's Vice Presidential debate. >> >> In any country as racially diverse as the USA, language accent undoubtedly >> reflects the nature of the demographics. That's a given. However, in the >> recent times, names of countries beginning with the letter "I" are >> pronounced in a manner that almost invariably seems to reveal the speakers >> feelings (or political opinion) about those countries. This might be of >> interest to linguistic anthropologists. My personal polling has shown this >> to be more of a problem with the very right-wing Republican tongue. >> >> Anyway, the issue is this - many Americans tend to pronounce Iraq and Iran >> as I-raq ("eye-raq") [instead of "ee-raaQ" which is the correct accent] >> and >> I-ran ("eye-raN") [instead of ee-raaN], whereas ally's and friends are >> called Israel (ee-sraayel) and/or India (ee-ndia). >> >> Of course why the margin of accentual error is so narrow in the case of >> "Ireland" is another story and since most of us are totally nonchalant >> about >> a country called "Iceland", we tend to pronounce the name conventionally. >> >> Aryanil >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:25:51 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: VOX Presents ACTION BOOKS, Camille Guthrie, and Andy Frazee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For anyone who'll be in the Atlanta/Athens area, we have two amazing readin= gs coming up!=0A=C2=A0=0AVOX Reading Series=C2=A0and the UGA Creative Writi= ng Program present =0A=C2=A0=0A8pm Thurs Oct 9=0Aan evening with the exciti= ng small press Action Books=0Afeaturing Lara Glenum, Johannes G=C3=B6ransso= n, Abe Smith, and Brent Hendricks =0A=0Aand coming up next week,=0A=C2=A0= =0A8pm Tues Oct 14=0ACamille Guthrie and Andy Frazee=0A=C2=A0=0AAll VOX rea= dings held at=0ACine Theater =0A254 West Hancock Ave., Athens, GA=0Ahttp://= athenscine.com/location.php =0A=0ABios: =0A=0ALara Glenum is the author of = The Hounds of No (Action Books, 2005)=0Aand Maximum Gaga (Action Books, 200= 8). She is also the co-editor of the=0Aanthology Gurlesque with Arielle Gre= enberg (Saturnalia Books, 2009). A=0Aprevious Fulbright recipient, she is c= ollaborating on a translation of=0Athe Czech Modernist Vladimir Holan=E2=80= =99s selected poems, a project that has=0Arecently received an NEA Translat= ion Fellowship. Most recently, she has=0Abeen collaborating with visual, so= und and digital media artists on a=0Amulti-media installation piece and wor= king on a hybrid poem-play,=0ANihilism, A Go-Go. Her poems have appeared in= Conjunctions, New=0AAmerican Writing, Fence, Denver Quarterly, and elsewhe= re. =0A=0ATogether with his wife, Joyelle McSweeney, Johannes G=C3=B6ransso= n is=0Athe editor of Action Books and Action, Yes. He is the author of thre= e=0Abooks =E2=80=94 Dear Ra, Pilot, and A New Quarantine Will Take My Place= =E2=80=94 and=0Athe translator of two: Remainland: Selected Poems of Aase = Berg and=0AIdeals =0AClearance by Henry Parland. He is currently working on= a comic book with fellow ex-Athenian John Woods. =0A=0ABrent Hendricks is = a graduate of Harvard Law School and the MFA=0Aprogram at the University of= Arizona. Thaumatrope, his first book, was=0Apublished by Action Books in 2= 007. His work has appeared in a number of=0Amagazines, including Black Warr= ior Review, Bomb, Conjunctions, Carolina=0AQuarterly, First Intensity, Iowa= Review, The New Review of Literature,=0APloughshares, Poetry, Prairie Scho= oner and The Southern Review. He=0Alives in Tuscaloosa with the writer Kate= Bernheimer and their daughter,=0AXia. =0A=0AAbraham Smith hails from Ladys= mith, Wisconsin. Action Books=0Apublished his Whim Man Mammon during the wi= nter of this year. A few=0Alaurel twigs: he was a 2004-2005 Writing Fellow = at the Fine Arts Work=0ACenter; this August, he read in the Academy of Amer= ican Poets=E2=80=99 NYC=0ARooftop Reading Series. Presently, he=E2=80=99s a= ttempting to tie dead country=0Asingers to live yodeling coyotes in a syrup= y elegiac maelstrom. He=0Ateaches at the University of Alabama.=0A=C2=A0=0A= Camille Guthrie is the author of the poetry books In Captivity (2005) and T= he Master Thief (2000), both from Subpress. A graduate of Vassar College an= d Brown University, she settled in New York City fifteen years ago. She liv= es in Brooklyn, where she teaches literature and lives with her husband and= three-year-old son. She is currently at work on a screenplay about birds.= =0A=0AAndy Frazee is a PhD student studying Creative Writing and Literature= at the University of Georgia. His work is forthcoming in 1913 and has appe= ared in Eleven Eleven, Bath House, Sycamore Review, Rhino, and Faultline, a= nd was nominated for a 2005 Pushcart Prize. His book reviews have appeared = in Verse and Cutbank Reviews, and are forthcoming in Boston Review, Galatea= Resurrects, and Jacket. =0A=0A=C2=A0=0A___________________________________= _____________________________________=0A=0AFor more information on the Crea= tive Writing MFA and PhD programs at the University of Georgia, please=C2= =A0visit http://www.english.uga.edu/creative/index.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:36:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am caught between loving this anthology and dismissing the idea of it. I love it because it's more comprehensive than any poetry anthology around...compared with Norton, this anthology is grandisimo! I initially dismissed it; I find generated poetry only as interesting as our expectations. The Sarah Palin of poetry....generated poetry is cool because our expectations of it are low. This poetry is better than we think it could be. Hell, sometimes it's better than our own poetry is, but that's not really good enough, for me, at least. I like the errors, the "mistakes" in human poetry. Irony and bathos in generated poetry don't seem as funny. With generated work, "wonder effect" never lasts long. On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > You can have my fictional self. My life is strange enough limited to > reality > (I think). > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your > > fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? > > > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Glenn Bach > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM > > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > > > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each with a > > different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this point > > I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new project. > > > > Huzzah. > > > > G. > > > > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > > > > I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <496791.21793.qm@web65104.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Or go back to Bresson why models, virginal inside and mechanical outside, are better actors than actors. Ciao, Murat On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 7:23 PM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > It all makes me want to go back and re-read Kleist on why puppets are > better actors than humans. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Adam Tobin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 8:23:51 PM > Subject: Re: anthology > > What everybody seems to be missing in all of this: I believe these poems > were written by a computer algorithm? > > It seems to be a very sophisticated algorithm, written by somebody who > "gets > it"; among other things, I am guessing it uses related groups of words > together as well as some ideas about poetic form. Perhaps it is drawing > from our own poems as source texts? > > Apparently it also passes the Turing Test, in that most people seem not to > notice that it was not written by a human. > > Kudos to the programmers! I've spent now several hours with the > manuscript, > and am finding real poetry within it. > > adam tobin > > PS Also, if I am right about it being computer-generated -- especially if > it > is using vocabulary and formal devices drawn from our actual poems -- it > seems perfectly appropriate to attribute these poems to "The Poetry > Community" (whatever that is: perhaps just a list of 3,147 names), rather > than, say, any one individual typist. > > That attribution may also apply to the work we usually publish under our > own > names, anyway. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:33:01 EDT Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Here is the poem that "I" (vis-a-vis Ann Margaret Bogle) did not write for the anthology, Issue 1: Like a delight Will he be black? He will scream, "I will long for to will glide angrily" This stream may stride and glare, but it is angrily meagre A sort of wall A kind of invasion A sort of delight A kind of eye Lustre is so motionless it will quiver you As if he will be steady, turning, laying, like a use. He will be shiny, his terrible droop **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:38:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The long I is very difficult to pronounce after n in India and almost as difficult after s in Israel. As much as politics, I think the distinction has to do with the education level of the speaker. Most soldiers pronounce Irak with the long I. I wonder if one does not know that Iraq and Iran are pronounced with the short I one instinctively extrapolates from Ireland which is the more familiar word. Ciao, Murat On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Nick LoLordo wrote: > As an American who spends much time in a lefty academic bubble, > I hear short-I for Iran and Iraq almost exclusively; > but I also hear short-I for India and Israel, exclusively. > > You've noted a long-I pronunciation of India and Israel among > (conservative) > Americans? I'm both fascinated and skeptical.... > > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee >wrote: > > > However funny (offendingly funny, so to speak)as it may seem, I find it > > hard > > to dissuade myself from an awkward thought of late. Especially after > > hearing > > Sarah Palin's English pronounciation of names of certain countries during > > last Thursday's Vice Presidential debate. > > > > In any country as racially diverse as the USA, language accent > undoubtedly > > reflects the nature of the demographics. That's a given. However, in the > > recent times, names of countries beginning with the letter "I" are > > pronounced in a manner that almost invariably seems to reveal the > speakers > > feelings (or political opinion) about those countries. This might be of > > interest to linguistic anthropologists. My personal polling has shown > this > > to be more of a problem with the very right-wing Republican tongue. > > > > Anyway, the issue is this - many Americans tend to pronounce Iraq and > Iran > > as I-raq ("eye-raq") [instead of "ee-raaQ" which is the correct accent] > > and > > I-ran ("eye-raN") [instead of ee-raaN], whereas ally's and friends are > > called Israel (ee-sraayel) and/or India (ee-ndia). > > > > Of course why the margin of accentual error is so narrow in the case of > > "Ireland" is another story and since most of us are totally nonchalant > > about > > a country called "Iceland", we tend to pronounce the name conventionally. > > > > Aryanil > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > V. Nicholas LoLordo > Assistant Professor > Department of English > University of Nevada-Las Vegas > (702) 895-3623 > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 00:38:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You are there twice. It must be the fabulous last name! On 10/6/08, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > there are several friends of mine who are lit bloggers that aren't poets > and aren't on silliman's blog roll who are also in the anthology. > On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, colin herd wrote: > > The list of names HAS in part to be from silliman's blog roll since i am on >> that, i am in Issue 1, but have never had any other poetry published. >> (which >> is a little funny i guess but pointless)... which means it's a lazy way of >> doing it. why should i be in it?... >> >> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Dillon Westbrook > >wrote: >> >> I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty obvious to me >>> that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro (i.e. the >>> 3,785 >>> 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, on this >>> list >>> and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems of >>> dubious >>> authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been hacked in >>> the recent past. >>> >>> signed, >>> Dillon Westbrook >>> (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >>> >>>> >>>>> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ >>>>> >>>> 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html >>>> >>>> >>>> i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. >>>> >>>> jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was >>>> writing >>>> that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that he was >>>> primarily interested in trying to get the program to write 'original', >>>> interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were 'based' on >>>> other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms produced >>>> work >>>> that could include as much or apparently as little of the originals as >>>> one >>>> liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the >>>> 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. >>>> >>>> the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to >>>> anything i've written. >>>> >>>> if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that you >>>> could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new one >>>> 'based >>>> on' what you fed it. >>>> >>>> the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a >>>> professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these sorts of >>>> projects. >>>> >>>> sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. >>>> >>>> i expect jim is the brains behind this project. >>>> >>>> ja >>>> http://vispo.com >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>>> welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Tracey M. Gagne sundrypleasures.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:26:33 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <942293.88791.qm@web46208.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Troy, I sometimes wonder if you are for real. Next you will introduce the term "the deserving poor." Do you remember that one from Ricardo's "dismal science." As for "naivete and ignorance," are you referring to all genius Ceo's who got us into this mess? Ciao, Murat On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the world. > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > everyone. > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > naivety the order of the day? > > A > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:30:18 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Roy Exley Subject: Roy Exley - Re: Fake anthology Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, don't forget that your fictional self is an amalgam of the fictive and the real and that reality swallows a good dose of the fictional before it sets off for the day. Strangeness is, of course, relative, ranging between the unorthodox and the truly weird and varying in efficacy according to one's breadth of experience. Your fictional self has a good measure of you, so don't be too liberal with it and some people are into really weird things so your strange might well be commonplace to them. Have a sublime but not too uncanny day. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 03:15:57 -0700 Reply-To: r_loden@sbcglobal.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rachel Loden Subject: Paavo Haavikko (1931-2008) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Life being short, poverty and wealth are final verdicts, in that poverty and life are of equal duration and wealth and cold indifference are perennial and hereditary, like diseases. (from /May, Eternal/, 1988, tr. by Anselm Hollo) And, briefly: The old part (1754-1762) is known as The Winter Palace. Accordingly everything, Floor, ceiling, walls Is covered with these exalted beings: Venus, Jupiter, many ladies Of a full-bodied vintage. You can still see how many a man Lost head and hat By the Berezhina River, You can see that Borodino Was a victory; Of such I'm talking, here, Under the roof Thatched by my hair. (from /The Winter Palace/, 1959, tr. by Anselm Hollo) http://wordstrumpet.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:44:04 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your > fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? > > -- Obododimma. > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be very rather tedious! I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally mystified. Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I don't relinquish that lightly. Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very very private word, without television (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that comparison can be alarming. Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our attitudes towards this. Just a thought. Geraldine ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:07:41 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: call for proposals extended MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable we have had a number of intriguing and inventive proposals in response to o= ur initial call... but there is still room in the issue .... our reading pe= riod for proposals has been extended for another 6 weeks from today; ... in= addition to considering this yourself, please pass it on to anyone else wh= o might be interested =C2=A0 -- mark, =C2=A0for the APG ^^^^^^^^^^ The Atlanta Poets Group is seeking proposals for work for the third issue = of its magazine Spaltung. This issue will be packaged in the form of a box= . We are looking for poem-objects. Pieces that address/ embody the concept = or experience of multiplicity/heterogeneity are encouraged. *Please do not= send work at this time.* Instead please send a *proposal* for the piece y= ou propose to include to spaltung@comcast.net. =C2=A0 Some parameters you should consider in preparing your=C2=A0proposal: -- 100 units of the magazine issue will be produced-- We have not yet decid= ed upon the size of the box. in cubic inches it will likely be larger than= a breadbox and significantly smaller than a moving crate.-- If your piece= (s) reqire anything beyond mindless, cheap reproduction/assembly, we will = likely look to you to provide us with 100 units, fully-assembled.-- We are= mostly looking for work that is beyond what can be accomplished on 8.5x11= paper and beyond what can be included on a CDROM.-- Proposals should inclu= de exact dimensions of the object(s) to be submittedYou can familiarize yo= urself with past issues of Spaltung via the blog at www.spaltungmag.blogspo= t.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:12:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: TEN YEARS AGO TONIGHT... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline TEN YEARS AGO TONIGHT... ...Matthew Shepard was driven out to a fence on the outskirts of Laramie, Wyoming and tortured and beaten and left to suffer and fight for his life until found by another young man on his bicycle. TEN YEARS AGO TONIGHT, after torturing Shepard, and beating him over and over with his pistol, Aaron McKinney would decide to go back into town, go to a bar, get into a fight with a man much bigger than himself and be beaten so badly that he would also wind up in the emergency room three beds away from Matthew Shepard. Shepard would die five days later. TEN YEARS LATER, queer teens still have the highest suicide rate. Queers of all ages, but especially African American transgendered people, continue to be murdered more than any other group. No one else I knew had the stomach for keeping track of this carnage like my friend, our friend, poet/artist/musician kari edwards. Up to the day she died she maintained blogs with the most harrowing evidence, which you can see HERE: http://transdada.blogspot.com/ and HERE: http://transdada3.blogspot.com/HERE There is a presidential debate tonight, a debate which will be going on almost at the exact same time Matthew Shepard was being tortured and beaten to death for being queer. Let's see if Obama and McCain mention Shepard, or use queers so callously as did Biden and Palin at their recent debate. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:14:24 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Edward Foster Subject: Talisman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 QXZhaWxhYmxlIHNvb246IFRhbGlzbWFuIDM2LzM3Og0KDQpNQVJLIEpBQ09CUyBvbiBST0JFUlQg Q1JFRUxFWQ0KQkFTSUwgS0lORyBvbiBQQVVMIEJMQUNLQlVSTg0KS0lNQkVSTFkgTEFNTSBvbiBB TElDRSBOT1RMRVkNCkFMQU4gR09MRElORyBvbiBDSEFSTEVTIEJFUk5TVEVJTg0KDQpaQUtBUklZ WUEgTU9IQU1NQUQsIFRBSEVSIFJJQUQgYW5kIFlPVVNFRiBBQkRFTCBBWklaIHRyYW5zLiBieSBU YWhzZWVuIA0KYWwtS2hhdGVlYiB3aXRoIExlb25hcmQgU2Nod2FydHoNCg0KU1VTQU4gU01JVEgg TkFTSCwg4oCcU3ViamVjdGl2aXR5IGluIFNlY29uZCBMaWZl4oCdDQpNQVJLIER1Q0hBUk1FIG9u IEtFTk5FVEggS09DSA0KDQpOZXcgV29yayBieSBKT0hOIE9MU09OLCBEQU5JRUwgTU9SUklTLCAN CkVGRSBNVVJBRCwgR0VPUkdFIEtBTEFNQVJBUywgDQpOT1JNQU4gRklTQ0hFUiwgQ09SSU5ORSBS T0JJTlMsIA0KYW5kIEJBUkJBUkEgSEVOTklORw0KDQpEQU5JRUwgTU9SUklTIG9uIEpPU0VQSCBM RUFTRQ0KQlVSVCBLSU1NRUxNQU4gb24gUk9CRVJUIE1VUlBIWQ0KQU5OIExJTkRFIG9uIEhFTlJZ IFdFSU5GSUVMRA0KSk9ITiBPTFNPTiBvbiBOT0FIIEVMSSBHT1JET04sIExPVSBST1dBTiwgR0VP UkdFIEtBTEFNQVJBUywgTklDTyANClZBU1NJTEFLSVMsIA0KU1BFTkNFUiBTRUxCWSwgR0FSUkVU VCBDQVBMRVMsIA0KYW5kIFJPQkVSVCBNSVRURU5USEFMDQpKRUZGUkVZIEJFQU0gb24gQVJBTSBT QVJPWUFOIGFuZCBvbiANCl9UaGUgRGVmaWFudCBNdXNlOiBWaWV0bmFtZXNlIEZlbWluaXN0IFBv ZW1zIA0KZnJvbSBBbnRpcXVpdHkgdG8gUHJlc2VudF8NCkpFQU4tUEFVTCBQRUNRVUVVUiBvbiBN QVRUIEhBUlQNClJBTFBIIEhBTUlMVE9OIG9uIEZSQU5LIEJJREFSVA0KR0VPUkdFIEtBTEFNQVJB UyBvbiBJVkFOIEJMQVROWQ0KIEJFUk5JRSBFQVJMRVkgb24gQlVSVCBLSU1NRUxNQU4NCkNPUklO TkUgUk9CSU5TIG9uIEpFUk9NRSBST1RIRU5CRVJHLCANClBIWUxMSVMgV0FULCBhbmQgQS4gQi4g U1BFTExNQU4NCkpBQ0sgS0lNQkFMTCBvbiBCUklBTiBLSU0gU1RFRkFOUywgTEFZTklFIEJST1dO RSwgYW5kIENBUlRFUiBSQVRDTElGRg0KU1VTQU4gU01JVEggTkFTSCBvbiBKRVJPTUUgTWNHQU5O IA0KYW5kIG9uIF9TaXggU2xvdmVuaWFuIFBvZXRzXw0KTUFSQyBOQVNET1Igb24gTkFEQSBHT1JE T04NCk1JQ0hBRUwgQk9VR0hOIG9uIEFORFJFICBTUEVBUlMNClRIT01BUyBGSU5LIG9uIEdFT0ZG UkVZIFlPVU5HDQpCQVJCQVJBIEZJU0hFUiBvbiBNQVJKT1JJRSBERUlURVIgS0VZSVNISUFODQpS SUNIQVJEIEZSQU5LTElOIG9uIEpFRkZSRVkgQkVBTQ0KUk9CRVJUIFpBTExFUiBvbiAgUG9tZWdy YW5hdGUgU2VlZHM6DQogQW4gQW50aG9sb2d5IG9mIEdyZWVrLUFtZXJpY2FuIFBvZXRyeQ0KDQpG b3IgbW9yZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbjogVGFsaXNtYW5lZEBhb2wuY29tDQo= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:37:43 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 3 times, actually. I think it's because JF J.F. and J F looked like different names to the cleaning algorithm. still i'll take the top representation. i think i'm the only 3peat in there. On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > You are there twice. It must be the fabulous last name! > > > > > On 10/6/08, Jason Quackenbush wrote: >> >> there are several friends of mine who are lit bloggers that aren't >> poets >> and aren't on silliman's blog roll who are also in the anthology. >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, colin herd wrote: >> >> The list of names HAS in part to be from silliman's blog roll >> since i am on >>> that, i am in Issue 1, but have never had any other poetry >>> published. >>> (which >>> is a little funny i guess but pointless)... which means it's a >>> lazy way of >>> doing it. why should i be in it?... >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Dillon Westbrook >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty >>> obvious to me >>>> that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro (i.e. >>>> the >>>> 3,785 >>>> 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, >>>> on this >>>> list >>>> and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems of >>>> dubious >>>> authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been >>>> hacked in >>>> the recent past. >>>> >>>> signed, >>>> Dillon Westbrook >>>> (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ >>>>>> >>>>> 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. >>>>> >>>>> jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was >>>>> writing >>>>> that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that he >>>>> was >>>>> primarily interested in trying to get the program to write >>>>> 'original', >>>>> interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were >>>>> 'based' on >>>>> other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms >>>>> produced >>>>> work >>>>> that could include as much or apparently as little of the >>>>> originals as >>>>> one >>>>> liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' >>>>> resemble the >>>>> 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. >>>>> >>>>> the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to >>>>> anything i've written. >>>>> >>>>> if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such >>>>> that you >>>>> could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new one >>>>> 'based >>>>> on' what you fed it. >>>>> >>>>> the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a >>>>> professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these >>>>> sorts of >>>>> projects. >>>>> >>>>> sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. >>>>> >>>>> i expect jim is the brains behind this project. >>>>> >>>>> ja >>>>> http://vispo.com >>>>> >>>>> ================================== >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>>>> welcome.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines >>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >>> >> >> Jason Quackenbush >> jfq@myuw.net >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- > Tracey M. Gagne > > sundrypleasures.blogspot.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:32:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: susan maurer Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <41E38580-CDC7-4496-9D8E-417F2CB2B53C@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable somehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for this mu= ch discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also should sa= y there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the new u.iow= a book women poets and mentorship=2C very interesting. susan maurer> Date: = Tue=2C 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: fake ant= hology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric Rosenfield is in= it and is not a poet=2C so I bet he > wouldn't mind if you swipe the minim= alist ditty of his.> > On Oct 7=2C 2008=2C at 4:22 AM=2C Obododimma Oha wro= te:> > > I envy you. I didn't appear=2C even once! Could you lend me one of= > > your fictional selves=2C one of your invented selves=2C in that anthol= ogy?> >> > -- Obododimma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > Fro= m: Glenn Bach > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> >= Sent: Monday=2C October 6=2C 2008 8:09:04 PM> > Subject: Re: fake antholog= y> >> > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat=2C" but I appear twice=2C ea= ch > > with a> > different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. A= t this > > point> > I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds f= or a new > > project.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> > Jason Quackenbush wro= te:> >> >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that?> >> > =3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all p= osts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics= / > > welcome.html> >> >> >> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poet= ics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & s= ub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason= Quackenbush> jfq@myuw.net> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List= is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub inf= o: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie= . http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias In-Reply-To: <48EABE32.7030406@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick > You've noted a long-I pronunciation of India and Israel among (conservative) > Americans? I'm both fascinated and skeptical.... No, I didn't mean that. Like you, I haven't, and I am just trying to amuse myself with the thought that may be the short-i sound breeds familiarity....those nations are seen as friendlier than the long-I nations. :-) Maria "eye-talian" sounds even more funnier. That proves my postulate wrong, I guess, to a great relief. :-) Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:41 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias in minnesota, the long-I for Italian and even Tibetan (!) are very common. I've even heard eye-talian from waiters in supposedly Italian restaurants. The news that this is an ethnic slur has not reached the great midwest, apparently. Nick LoLordo wrote: > As an American who spends much time in a lefty academic bubble, > I hear short-I for Iran and Iraq almost exclusively; > but I also hear short-I for India and Israel, exclusively. > > You've noted a long-I pronunciation of India and Israel among (conservative) > Americans? I'm both fascinated and skeptical.... > > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > >> However funny (offendingly funny, so to speak)as it may seem, I find it >> hard >> to dissuade myself from an awkward thought of late. Especially after >> hearing >> Sarah Palin's English pronounciation of names of certain countries during >> last Thursday's Vice Presidential debate. >> >> In any country as racially diverse as the USA, language accent undoubtedly >> reflects the nature of the demographics. That's a given. However, in the >> recent times, names of countries beginning with the letter "I" are >> pronounced in a manner that almost invariably seems to reveal the speakers >> feelings (or political opinion) about those countries. This might be of >> interest to linguistic anthropologists. My personal polling has shown this >> to be more of a problem with the very right-wing Republican tongue. >> >> Anyway, the issue is this - many Americans tend to pronounce Iraq and Iran >> as I-raq ("eye-raq") [instead of "ee-raaQ" which is the correct accent] >> and >> I-ran ("eye-raN") [instead of ee-raaN], whereas ally's and friends are >> called Israel (ee-sraayel) and/or India (ee-ndia). >> >> Of course why the margin of accentual error is so narrow in the case of >> "Ireland" is another story and since most of us are totally nonchalant >> about >> a country called "Iceland", we tend to pronounce the name conventionally. >> >> Aryanil >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 06:50:51 -0700 Reply-To: sdunnhensley@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: susan dunn-hensley Subject: Re: Mapping Language Accent to Political Bias In-Reply-To: <48EABE32.7030406@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am not a linguistic expert, so feel free to disagree. =A0 I have a problem with associating people's language patterns or accents wit= h anything besides region or possibly socio-economic position. To suggest t= hat these patterns "reveal" people's prejudices seems to inscribe our own p= rejudices on others. People tend to pronounce words the way that others in = their community pronounce them. To condemn entire communities based on thei= r language patterns or accents seems to me a form of elitism and prejudice. =A0 Susan Dunn-Hensley --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Maria Damon wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > =20 >> However funny (offendingly funny, so to speak)as it may seem, I find it >> hard >> to dissuade myself from an awkward thought of late. Especially after >> hearing >> Sarah Palin's English pronounciation of names of certain countries during >> last Thursday's Vice Presidential debate. >> >> In any country as racially diverse as the USA, language accent undoubtedly >> reflects the nature of the demographics. That's a given. However, in the >> recent times, names of countries beginning with the letter "I" are >> pronounced in a manner that almost invariably seems to reveal the speakers >> feelings (or political opinion) about those countries. This might be of >> interest to linguistic anthropologists. My personal polling has shown this >> to be more of a problem with the very right-wing Republican tongue. >> >> Anyway, the issue is this - many Americans tend to pronounce Iraq and Iran >> as I-raq ("eye-raq") [instead of "ee-raaQ" which is the correct accent] >> and >> I-ran ("eye-raN") [instead of ee-raaN], whereas ally's and friends are >> called Israel (ee-sraayel) and/or India (ee-ndia). >> >> Of course why the margin of accentual error is so narrow in the case of >> "Ireland" is another story and since most of us are totally nonchalant >> about >> a country called "Iceland", we tend to pronounce the name conventionally. >> >> Aryanil >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> =20 > > > > =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:52:14 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was talking to my mother about this the other day. She's 60 and was remarking at how little I cared about my name appearing on things like this anthology. My response is that my name has very little to do with me. It's a series of sounds and/or letters that is used to designate me, and that i use to identify things that i've written, but beyond that? it isn't much of anything. by publishing, which was a choice that I made, i put my name OUT THERE. and i think that part of the generational difference that you may be talking about here is a different conception of what OUT THERE means. the public space of the internet, and of discourse, is one where Identity has very little to do with one's name and much more to do with ones actions. this anthology, because it's clearly computer generated, and because the way the names were presented were en masse in a sort of storm of names is very different from the sort of thing i might object to, such as someone specifically using my name to endorse something i disagree with or using my bio to try to get crappy poems published. There is no action attributed to me in my name's inclusion in this thing. The only thing that my name being included in this says about me is that I have a minor public presence as a writer, which fact is the result of intentional action on my part. the project itself, as a commentary on the field and as a utilization of machine generated poetry, is worthy and as such I don't really see anything objectionable about it at all. what you're calling real privacy to me looks like something that is either illusory or an over strong definition. a rose is a rose is a rose, and no number of garbage poems about roses have ever diminished the rose from being a beautiful flower. just the same, a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush, and attributing a computer generated poem or poems to JF Quackenbush says nothing about me or my work. so why should it bother me? On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >> anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> > > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely > surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you > seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a > computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't > honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it > because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't > get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of > writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production > which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - > putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the > mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be > very rather tedious! > > I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger > for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is > merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally > mystified. > > Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because > I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I > wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out > myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I > don't relinquish that lightly. > > Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift > (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many > of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at > ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. > Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very > very private word, without television (although they were just > about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones > would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! > - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all > the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which > was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small > pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been > phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the > cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know > you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what > real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that > comparison can be alarming. > > Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the > 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our > attitudes towards this. Just a thought. > > Geraldine > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <9778b8630810061936i55cbf673x9e6332ffa2b920c6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am just not amused. I understand the avant-garde-ness of it, thew questions of authorship I was so entranced by in college, etc. But mostly, I am pissed because I work very hard not to produce suck ass poems. Most certainly, I keep my suck-ass poems locked away in a vault on my hard drive which will hopefully never see the light of day. So Silliman has the email address of the "compiler": fakesalt@comcast.net I'm sending an email noting my desire not to be associated with bad poetry. I have no real issue with the "idea", aside from the fact that no one gets to say, "Yes, count me in". Anyhow. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:41:03 +0900 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Rowland Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Well, I'm younger (though not quite young enough to have been brought up with computers), but still hear-hear what you say, Geraldine. Just because so many people have downloaded it -- out of little more than curiosity at whether they or their friends are included -- doesn't seem as incredibly meaningful as some have said! Harmless fun, perhaps, loaded with a little bit of a subversive message regarding intellectual property/authorial vanity, but deserving of such admiration? On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:44 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >> anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> > > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely > surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem > more than happy to have your names attached to something a computer > wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't honestly see the > satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it because obviously much > satisfaction has been gained. But I can't get to the nub of why > this should be because it's the very act of writing poetry that > gives satisfaction - apart from book production which I find > integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - putting your name to > it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of transmission, > and the mechanics of transmission can be very rather tedious! > > I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger > for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is > merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally > mystified. > > Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I > was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I > wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out > myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I > don't relinquish that lightly. > > Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift > (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many > of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at > ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. > Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very > very private word, without television (although they were just about > beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones would be > streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! - everyone > wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all the other > things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which was the main > source of entertainment our known world was a small pocket of our > neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much of > it for the better but it has been at the cost of our privacy. In a > way it's a matter of what you don't know you don't miss. I think a > lot of poets of my generation know what real privacy was so we have > something to compare it to - and that comparison can be alarming. > > Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the > 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our > attitudes towards this. Just a thought. > > Geraldine > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cleary Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't like "my" poem at all. Maybe I should auction it off to the highest bidder? On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:32 AM, susan maurer wrote: > somehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for this > much discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also should > say there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the new > u.iowa book women poets and mentorship, very interesting. susan maurer> > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: > fake anthology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric > Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he > wouldn't mind if you > swipe the minimalist ditty of his.> > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, Obododimma > Oha wrote:> > > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me > one of > > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that > anthology?> >> > -- Obododimma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > > From: Glenn Bach > > To: > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM> > > Subject: Re: fake anthology> >> > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," > but I appear twice, each > > with a> > different spelling of my name: Glenn > Bach and Glen Bach. At this > > point> > I'm thinking about using those two > poems as the seeds for a new > > project.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> > > Jason Quackenbush wrote:> >> >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat > that?> >> > ==================================> > The Poetics List is > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub > info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> >> >> >> > > ==================================> > The Poetics List is moderated & does > not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason Quackenbush> > jfq@myuw.net> > ==================================> The Poetics List is > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:18:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Vidhu Aggarwal Subject: Call for Submissions: Specs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable “Faux Histories” Specs is a jo= Call For Submissions--Specs=0A=0A=0A=93Faux Histories=94=0A=0ASpecs is a jo= urnal of contemporary culture and arts at Rollins College that aims to crea= te sympathetic interfaces between artistic and critical practices.=0A=0AThe= editors invite submissions of critical and/or creative work for the 2nd vo= lume on the theme of =93Faux Histories.=94 We seek works of fiction, non-f= iction, cultural criticism, artwork, poetry, and pieces that blur genre bou= ndaries. The editorial board consists of writers and academics from various= fields. The editors are excited by specialty, an excess of detail, fragmen= ts, narratives, meta-narratives, and more. The editors are particularly int= erested in works that examine contemporary culture and/or cross the critica= l/creative divide while riffing on the theme of =93Faux Histories=94 in mul= tiple ways, including: =0A=0A- Manipulated Histories/Deep Time=0A- Syntheti= c Encounters /Textures/String Theories=0A- Apocryphal Technologies and Topo= graphies=0A- End of History=0A- Planned Communities/Theme Parks=0A- Virtual= Worlds/Mythical Creatures/Cyberculture=0A- Retrofuturism/Revisonary Histor= y/Counter Memories=0A- Transgenderisms=0A- Body Transformations/Plastic Sur= gery=0A- Transhumanism/Cyborgs/Posthumanism=0A- 2nd Life/Massive Multiplaye= r Online Role Playing Games (MMORPGs)/Video Games=0A- Adaptations/Hollywood= /Celluloid Worlds=0A- False Memories/D=E9j=E0 vu/Ersatz Affects=0A=0ADeadli= ne for submissions: December 15, 2008. =0A=0AGuidelines:=0APlease send al= l submissions in an .rft or .doc file in Times New Roman Font to editors@sp= ecsjournal.org Include a brief cover letter and indicate whether you wish = to be considered for the print edition, the web edition, or both. Please al= so indicate the type/genre of submission in the subject heading (Poetry, Cu= ltural Criticism, etc.). =0A=0APlease limit prose submissions to less than = 6000 words and poetry submissions to 10-12 pages. =0A=0ACritical prose pie= ces will be peer reviewed. We accept simultaneous submission of creative w= ork if indicated on the cover letter. Please inform us immediately if work = is accepted elsewhere. =0A=0AFor further guidelines visit our website at w= ww.specsjournal.org=0A=0AVidhu Aggarwal =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:44:58 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Don't know of any "deserving poor." I just know that if you look at the world historically, you will see that the majority of people have been poor during that time. Go back far enough, and everyone was poor. But only if you take an evolutionary-anthropological view of things. I find it hillarious that the Left is always attacking religious people for believing in creationism, but then deny historical, anthropological, or evolutionary facts because those facts conflict with their ideologies. As for the CEOs, I do include them with those on the Left, as if you learn who these CEOs were, they were on the Left. The seeds for this mess were planted in the very creation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac insofar as it resulted in the separation of those who sold the mortgages and those who owned them. This set it up for the Clinton administration to first push the CEO of Fannie Mae at the time, Franklin Raines, to encourage mortgages brokers to start offering mortgages to people without money or a job. Bush also liked the idea of home ownership for everyone, so he continued pushing this ridiculous plan. Naturally, people without jobs or money can't pay their mortgages, so they began defaulting, driving housing prices down. As housing slowly became devalued, the housing market dried up. More defaults resulted in banks and places like Fannie Mae owning houses rather than getting the money they were owed, and as a consequence, we are in this mess. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 12:26:33 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Troy, I sometimes wonder if you are for real. Next you will introduce the term "the deserving poor." Do you remember that one from Ricardo's "dismal science." As for "naivete and ignorance," are you referring to all genius Ceo's who got us into this mess? Ciao, Murat On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the world. > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > everyone. > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > naivety the order of the day? > > A > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:52:57 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Alison Croggon To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious decline), the US and Australia. And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in our own backyard. A On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the world. > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > everyone. > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > naivety the order of the day? > > A > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Geraldine, I write to you as a huge fan of your work -- I first saw you read in London in '86, in connection (I think, if memory serves) with MHorovitz's Grandchildren of Albion anthology -- and with no disrespect whatsoever. In your post, you wrote: > But I can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the > very act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction Indeed. So much so that having a little hoax poem (or two or three) with one's name on it included among over 3,000 other little hoax poems could/should never detract from that. There's no real satisfaction to be gained from seeing one's name on a poem one didn't write (sometimes there's no satisfaction from seeing one's name on a poem one did write!). There's a giggle, yeah, at the joke -- that the poems are so obviously not the work of the many, many poets whose names are affixed to them -- but a giggle's not satisfaction. Okay, sometimes it can be, but I think not in this case. The anthology has certainly revealed a lot of very interesting attitudes (about, for one thing, litigation) among certain poets, and maybe that's its "value." But what you wrote here is the most cogent thing, in my opinion, anyone's said about it: > could we be seeing a real shift (or even rift) in attitudes between > younger and older poets? Many of you will have been brought up > with computer and be totally at ease with the computer age with its > impersonal and intrusive ways. There has definitely been a shift in the way I configure time in my own brain, and the presence of a computer has contributed to that. I KNOW that the computer, as a kind of outside-the-body brain, has changed poetry. In my own life it is intrusive, but at the same time an interesting tool -- and there's the slippery slope. And if we slip, do we cling onto something, or let go and see where we land? Either way, it might hurt. x, Sharon Mesmer ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:21:50 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) Comments: To: Geraldine Monk In-Reply-To: 001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I obviously can't speak for anyone else on the subject of why they may be so pleased to find somebody else speaking on their behalf -- In my own instance, I thought it hilarious to find a (not so bad) poem attributed to Aldon Lynn Nielsen -- a name that has never appeared on a poetry publication in the past -- On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 07:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your >> fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> > >I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely surprised at >the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem more than happy to >have your names attached to something a computer wrote. I just find this >extremely weird. I can't honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not >disputing it because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I >can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of >writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production which I >find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - putting your name to >it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of transmission, and the >mechanics of transmission can be very rather tedious! > >I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger for some >poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is merely to see your >name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally mystified. > >Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I was >delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I wasn't included. >I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out myself and somewhat dreaded >being there. My name is who I am and I don't relinquish that lightly. > >Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift (or >even >rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many of you will have >been brought up with computer and be totally at ease with the computer age >with its impersonal and intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my generation >(I'm >56) were brought up in a very very private word, without television >(although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the homes) >telephones (public ones would be streets away if you knew anyone who had >a >phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars >and all the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which >was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small pocket of >our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much of it >for the better but it has been at the cost of our privacy. In a way it's a >matter of what you don't know you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my >generation know what real privacy was so we have something to compare it >to - and that comparison can be alarming. > >Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the 'anthology' >but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our attitudes towards this. >Just a thought. > >Geraldine > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Study the fine art of coming apart." --Jerry W. Ward, Jr. Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:22:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sarah Sarai Subject: Re: fake anthology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain What's the url to the specific poem, i.e. a poem "by" uh er Sarah Sarai? = I'm so thrilled to=20 be part of anything, especially a joke, a parody. No wringer for my pant= ies. (At least not=20 yet.) Beatrix Potter and Bukowski in the same anthology? Peter Rabbit i= s slugging back a=20 few stiff ones. ...Sarah http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:24:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Visit: http://www.forgodot.com/?ext-ref=comm-sub-email and s= =0A=0A Visit: http://www.forgodot.com/?ext-ref=3Dcomm-sub-email=0A =0Aand s= croll down to read "Issue 1", a pdf document of about 4000 pages.=0ABest.= =0A--- Obododimma.=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: su= san maurer =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent= : Tuesday, October 7, 2008 2:32:27 PM=0ASubject: Re: fake anthology=0A=0Aso= mehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for this much= discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also should say = there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the new u.iowa = book women poets and mentorship, very interesting. susan maurer> Date: Tue,= 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: fake anthology= > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric Rosenfield is in it an= d is not a poet, so I bet he > wouldn't mind if you swipe the minimalist di= tty of his.> > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote:> > > I env= y you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of > > your fictio= nal selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology?> >> > -- Obodod= imma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Glenn Bach > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Monday, Octob= er 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM> > Subject: Re: fake anthology> >> > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each > > with a> > di= fferent spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this > > point> >= I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new > > projec= t.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> > Jason Quackenbush wrote:> >> >> I love i= t. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that?> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > gu= idelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html= > >> >> >> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is modera= ted & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: htt= p://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason Quackenbush> jfq@= myuw.net> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is moderated & do= es not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buff= alo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A____________________________________________= _____________________=0AWant to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidd= en secrets=94 from Jamie.=0Ahttp://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomso= n.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_= domore_092008=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderat= ed & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may be generational, but I doubt it. I think the divide here has a couple of sources. I do think it's important to distinguish between the pleasure of the reader and the pleasure of the creator. I suspect many people who are happy with the poem attributed to them are happy as readers. There may be a few who look at the poem attributed to them as a piece of found art, and that's a sort of authorship, no doubt, although it doesn't fit the sort of writing experience you describe. Anyway, here's a list of all the various positions or motivations I could come up with. It's by no means exhaustive. I tried to be fair, but no doubt I slipped in a dig or two despite myself. There are people who, perhaps like yourself, see the computer as an agent rather than a tool. This is one reason why I think things like the Turing Test keep arising. Some people are unhappy because they see poetry as one of the great humanist endeavours. That it, like opposable thumbs, are part of what makes us truly human. They tend to talk about soul, meaning, and Turing Tests. There are people who are invested in such methods of creation and who see the computer as a tool, like a typewriter. This may speak to the divide you identify. There are people who are invested in control more than others. That is, some of the folks outraged also don't place value in things like automatic writing, chance operations, and so on. Conversely, there are people who get very excited (in a happy, appreciative way) about found work, chance operations, computer- generated texts, and so on. Some may think of this as a sort of mechanical muse and that the poets' names listed here have a status similar to those real frogs in Moore's imaginary garden or Lorca in Spicer's After Lorca. There are also people who feel that their name/brand is threatened by such activities. They therefore see this as fraud, theft, or some other threat to the value of their name and, possibly, to the real income it generates. I know at least two major poets have made it know that this is the issue for them. There are people who see this as part of a disruption of subjectivity and who value it as a prompt to think about what it means to be an author. There are others who see it as a threat to their author-ity as the creator. This is starting to overlap, but I want to make the distinction. Some people would be okay with this project if the poem attributed to them or to some they like weren't what they consider a bad poem. Others would be proud to call the poem the product of their own labor. (There may even be those who would be happy to have a published book or two regardless of having written it themselves or not.) I bet others can add more to this list, and I'd be grateful if someone did. I think all of these are valid positions, but I disagree with some of them. On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >> anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> > > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely > surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you > seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a > computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't > honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it > because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't > get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of > writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production > which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - > putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the > mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be > very rather tedious! > > I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger > for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is > merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally > mystified. > > Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because > I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I > wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out > myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I > don't relinquish that lightly. > > Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift > (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many > of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at > ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. > Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very > very private word, without television (although they were just > about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones > would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! > - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all > the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which > was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small > pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been > phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the > cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know > you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what > real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that > comparison can be alarming. > > Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the > 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our > attitudes towards this. Just a thought. > > Geraldine > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:37:24 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dan Glass Subject: A note on praxis/copies into the world Comments: To: Ange Mlinko , Digital Artifact , Ben Lerner , Jasper Bernes , Joshua Clover , Chris Chen , Chris Nealon , John Tranter , juliana spahr , Halvard Johnson , Timothy Kreiner , Michael Davidson , Pam Brown , Phoebe Wayne MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline http://withplusstand.blogspot.com "Artworks synthesize ununifiable, nonidentical elements that grind away at each other; they truly seek the identity of the identical and the nonidentical processually because even their unity is only an element and not the magical formula of the whole." -Theodor Adorno, Aesthetic Theory Theorizing the system as a poetic is explicitly a practice of theorizing the collective. In producing a journal based on this understanding, the aim of W+S has been to negate the glossy individualism of poetry as such. For issue #2, former contributors were invited to also be editors, tagging poets whose work they admired; the connections spiraled out dialectically, creating a dynamic and living process, one that is unified to the precise degree it negates unity. The grinding is the core project. Tonight, W+S#2 contributor Meg Hamill is part of the State of the Union reading at Pegasus in downtown Berkeley. The first copies of #2 will make their way into the world from there. Onward,,, Dan/W+S ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:06:15 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Les Figues Press: Give A Fig Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Les Figues Press creates aesthetic conversations between readers, writers and artists, through the publication of the TrenchArt series and other works, and through events, including Mrs. Porter's Art Salon. Guest writers on the Les Figues Blog, Give A Fig, are sharing their thoughts about books they're reading, events they're planning/attending, pieces they're writing, and collaborations they're working on. RECENT POSTS Harold Abramowitz's Chapter Three, Part Two Jennifer Calkins on A Good Day To You! Teresa Carmody on Beauty Belief and Bawdry Silver Downes on When Someone Dies Jennifer Karmin on Appropriation: 2 Case Studies Sawako Nakayasu on Walnuts! Vanessa Place on The Politics of this Aesthetics: A Manifest Join the conversation! http://www.lesfigues.blogspot.com http://www.lesfigues.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:10:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <009C681A-11F9-4FA9-9BCF-F8A6D2650C01@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 7 Oct 2008 at 11:32, J.P. Craig wrote: > ... I think all of these are valid positions ...< Please define "valid" as you're using it here. Marcus ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:18:00 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Excellently articulated. -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: J.P. Craig To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:32:34 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) It may be generational, but I doubt it. I think the divide here has a couple of sources. I do think it's important to distinguish between the pleasure of the reader and the pleasure of the creator. I suspect many people who are happy with the poem attributed to them are happy as readers. There may be a few who look at the poem attributed to them as a piece of found art, and that's a sort of authorship, no doubt, although it doesn't fit the sort of writing experience you describe. Anyway, here's a list of all the various positions or motivations I could come up with. It's by no means exhaustive. I tried to be fair, but no doubt I slipped in a dig or two despite myself. There are people who, perhaps like yourself, see the computer as an agent rather than a tool. This is one reason why I think things like the Turing Test keep arising. Some people are unhappy because they see poetry as one of the great humanist endeavours. That it, like opposable thumbs, are part of what makes us truly human. They tend to talk about soul, meaning, and Turing Tests. There are people who are invested in such methods of creation and who see the computer as a tool, like a typewriter. This may speak to the divide you identify. There are people who are invested in control more than others. That is, some of the folks outraged also don't place value in things like automatic writing, chance operations, and so on. Conversely, there are people who get very excited (in a happy, appreciative way) about found work, chance operations, computer- generated texts, and so on. Some may think of this as a sort of mechanical muse and that the poets' names listed here have a status similar to those real frogs in Moore's imaginary garden or Lorca in Spicer's After Lorca. There are also people who feel that their name/brand is threatened by such activities. They therefore see this as fraud, theft, or some other threat to the value of their name and, possibly, to the real income it generates. I know at least two major poets have made it know that this is the issue for them. There are people who see this as part of a disruption of subjectivity and who value it as a prompt to think about what it means to be an author. There are others who see it as a threat to their author-ity as the creator. This is starting to overlap, but I want to make the distinction. Some people would be okay with this project if the poem attributed to them or to some they like weren't what they consider a bad poem. Others would be proud to call the poem the product of their own labor. (There may even be those who would be happy to have a published book or two regardless of having written it themselves or not.) I bet others can add more to this list, and I'd be grateful if someone did. I think all of these are valid positions, but I disagree with some of them. On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >> anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> > > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely > surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you > seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a > computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't > honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it > because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't > get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of > writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production > which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - > putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the > mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be > very rather tedious! > > I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger > for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is > merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally > mystified. > > Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because > I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I > wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out > myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I > don't relinquish that lightly. > > Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift > (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many > of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at > ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. > Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very > very private word, without television (although they were just > about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones > would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! > - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all > the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which > was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small > pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been > phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the > cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know > you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what > real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that > comparison can be alarming. > > Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the > 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our > attitudes towards this. Just a thought. > > Geraldine > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Will Larsen Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline @Ryan, I have this strange feeling a computer program would make just as many compositional "mistakes" as a human poet. Perhaps we could devise some sort of poetical Turing test to tell the difference. Which raises the issue of what to call it--a Homer Test? A RACTER test? A W(h)it-mus test--like measuring acid, but cleverer, with a beard? On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:04 AM, John Cleary wrote: > I don't like "my" poem at all. Maybe I should auction it off to the highest > bidder? > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:32 AM, susan maurer wrote: > > > somehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for this > > much discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also > should > > say there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the new > > u.iowa book women poets and mentorship, very interesting. susan maurer> > > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: > > fake anthology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric > > Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he > wouldn't mind if you > > swipe the minimalist ditty of his.> > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, > Obododimma > > Oha wrote:> > > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me > > one of > > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that > > anthology?> >> > -- Obododimma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > ----> > > > From: Glenn Bach > > To: > > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 > PM> > > > Subject: Re: fake anthology> >> > I don't think I can beat a > "three-peat," > > but I appear twice, each > > with a> > different spelling of my name: > Glenn > > Bach and Glen Bach. At this > > point> > I'm thinking about using those > two > > poems as the seeds for a new > > project.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote:> >> >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody > beat > > that?> >> > ==================================> > The Poetics List is > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub > > info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> >> >> >> > > > ==================================> > The Poetics List is moderated & > does > > not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason > Quackenbush> > > jfq@myuw.net> > ==================================> The Poetics List is > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:26:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Skip Fox Subject: fake antho In-Reply-To: <009C681A-11F9-4FA9-9BCF-F8A6D2650C01@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herewith, the time it deserves ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This "fake anthology" and the question of "stolen" or "invented" identity it has raised would certainly be useful to me in developing the concept of the "indivirtual", which I tried to play with sometime ago but only succeeded in publishing a rather starved essay on my blog: http://obododimma.livejournal.com/#entry_640 I think I have got very relevant data now from "fake anthology" and from those who have been writing in. -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: J.P. Craig To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:32:34 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) It may be generational, but I doubt it. I think the divide here has a couple of sources. I do think it's important to distinguish between the pleasure of the reader and the pleasure of the creator. I suspect many people who are happy with the poem attributed to them are happy as readers. There may be a few who look at the poem attributed to them as a piece of found art, and that's a sort of authorship, no doubt, although it doesn't fit the sort of writing experience you describe. Anyway, here's a list of all the various positions or motivations I could come up with. It's by no means exhaustive. I tried to be fair, but no doubt I slipped in a dig or two despite myself. There are people who, perhaps like yourself, see the computer as an agent rather than a tool. This is one reason why I think things like the Turing Test keep arising. Some people are unhappy because they see poetry as one of the great humanist endeavours. That it, like opposable thumbs, are part of what makes us truly human. They tend to talk about soul, meaning, and Turing Tests. There are people who are invested in such methods of creation and who see the computer as a tool, like a typewriter. This may speak to the divide you identify. There are people who are invested in control more than others. That is, some of the folks outraged also don't place value in things like automatic writing, chance operations, and so on. Conversely, there are people who get very excited (in a happy, appreciative way) about found work, chance operations, computer- generated texts, and so on. Some may think of this as a sort of mechanical muse and that the poets' names listed here have a status similar to those real frogs in Moore's imaginary garden or Lorca in Spicer's After Lorca. There are also people who feel that their name/brand is threatened by such activities. They therefore see this as fraud, theft, or some other threat to the value of their name and, possibly, to the real income it generates. I know at least two major poets have made it know that this is the issue for them. There are people who see this as part of a disruption of subjectivity and who value it as a prompt to think about what it means to be an author. There are others who see it as a threat to their author-ity as the creator. This is starting to overlap, but I want to make the distinction. Some people would be okay with this project if the poem attributed to them or to some they like weren't what they consider a bad poem. Others would be proud to call the poem the product of their own labor. (There may even be those who would be happy to have a published book or two regardless of having written it themselves or not.) I bet others can add more to this list, and I'd be grateful if someone did. I think all of these are valid positions, but I disagree with some of them. On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >> anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> > > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely > surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you > seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a > computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't > honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it > because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't > get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of > writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production > which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - > putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the > mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be > very rather tedious! > > I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger > for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is > merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally > mystified. > > Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because > I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I > wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out > myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I > don't relinquish that lightly. > > Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift > (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many > of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at > ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. > Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very > very private word, without television (although they were just > about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones > would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! > - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all > the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which > was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small > pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been > phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the > cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know > you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what > real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that > comparison can be alarming. > > Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the > 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our > attitudes towards this. Just a thought. > > Geraldine > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:38:40 -0700 Reply-To: semanticsblack@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: sheila black Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) Comments: To: Geraldine Monk In-Reply-To: <001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At first, I had a similar reaction/response to the=A0 phenomenon=A0 that th= is "fake anthology" seems to represent as Geraldine. I am an older poet (60= ) and because I do not feel compelled to jump on the technology bus=A0 (alt= hough always extremely curious about anything new and mysterious), I have n= ot completely explored all its possibilities. I can see because I teach tha= t=A0 the younger generation have some advantages and disadvantages in their= computer-driven history (the disadvantages are moot as they are so hard to= reproduce for someone who hasn't experienced them).=A0 I envy the ease wit= h which they have incorporated the seemingly scientific and concrete gadget= s to make this new world we live in work for them.=A0 Our technology is aff= ecting everything in our world---especially communication.=A0 If one of art= 's goals is to make a statement that reaches an audience, or to express som= ething not previously expressed hopefully in its most beautiful aesthetic form (or its most provocative), then am I wrong to examine the method of t= his most recent expression? The examination of that method is very nice.=20 =A0 I have noticed over time that I don't care as much about what I have re= leased for public perusal since my experience has been=A0 readers will inte= rpret as they will. It is out of my control by then.=A0 I do enjoy the writ= ing of it myself mostly, sometimes for a moment I enjoy seeing my name on i= t. That passes quickly.=A0 If I knew I didn't write something and my name w= as on it, I would say that's interesting, perhaps consider it as another ph= enomenon reflecting the society we live in.=A0 I am referring to the numero= us incidents where name/authorship/ duplication/plagiarism abounds. As far = as privacy issues go, Geraldine touches on a way of life that doesn't seem = to exist as we knew it in the fifties and sixties. For example, what people= considered was acceptable to write or talk about doesn't exist today. Of c= ourse, a LOT of things were secret then, also.=A0 That doesn't mean that pe= ople don't have privacy today; it just looks quite different now. The pre-empting of a group of poets names to demonstrate a computer program's = expertise seems much less subversive to me than say hiding from the governm= ent to stay out of prison or something else like that.=A0=20 Respectfully submitted (because of my age) , Sheila Black=A0=20 .=A0Sheila Black=20 --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Geraldine Monk wrote: From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Generation game? (was fake antho) To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 6:44 AM > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your=20 > fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? > > -- Obododimma. > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely surprised at=20 the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem more than happy to= =20 have your names attached to something a computer wrote. I just find this= =20 extremely weird. I can't honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not=20 disputing it because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I=20 can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production which I= =20 find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - putting your name to= =20 it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of transmission, and the=20 mechanics of transmission can be very rather tedious! I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger for some= =20 poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is merely to see your= =20 name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally mystified. Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I was=20 delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I wasn't included.=20 I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out myself and somewhat dreaded=20 being there. My name is who I am and I don't relinquish that lightly. Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift (or eve= n=20 rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many of you will have= =20 been brought up with computer and be totally at ease with the computer age= =20 with its impersonal and intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very very private word, without television=20 (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the homes)=20 telephones (public ones would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a= =20 phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars= =20 and all the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which= =20 was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small pocket of= =20 our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much of it= =20 for the better but it has been at the cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my=20 generation know what real privacy was so we have something to compare it=20 to - and that comparison can be alarming. Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the 'anthology'=20 but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our attitudes towards this.= =20 Just a thought. Geraldine =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:26:20 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, I agree, the pleasure of seeing one's name attached to something one d= idn't write--when it is in a harmless situation such as this, e.g., as some= one else said, where it is not implying endorsement of something one oppose= s--induces a sort of light and pleasurable shock: What if one had, if one c= ould have, written that? What poet would one be then? It's a thought experi= ment of sorts, as in the Borges story describing a culture that enjoyed ima= gining that two completely dissimilar works were by the same author, and th= ereupon deriving an idea of an original psychology....=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Ori= ginal Message ----=0AFrom: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, 7 October, 2008 4:02= :51 PM=0ASubject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho)=0A=0AGeraldine,=0A= =0AI write to you as a huge fan of your work -- I first saw you read in=C2= =A0 =0ALondon in '86, in connection (I think, if memory serves) with=C2=A0 = =0AMHorovitz's Grandchildren of Albion anthology -- and with no=C2=A0 =0Adi= srespect whatsoever.=C2=A0 In your post, you wrote:=0A=0A> But I can't get = to the nub of why this should be because it's the=C2=A0 =0A> very act of wr= iting poetry that gives satisfaction=0A=0AIndeed.=C2=A0 So much so that hav= ing a little hoax poem (or two or three)=C2=A0 =0Awith one's name on it inc= luded among over 3,000 other little hoax=C2=A0 =0Apoems could/should never = detract from that.=C2=A0 There's no real=C2=A0 =0Asatisfaction to be gained= from seeing one's name on a poem one didn't=C2=A0 =0Awrite (sometimes ther= e's no satisfaction from seeing one's name on a=C2=A0 =0Apoem one did=C2=A0= write!).=C2=A0 There's a giggle, yeah, at the joke -- that=C2=A0 =0Athe po= ems are so obviously not the work of the many, many poets whose=C2=A0 =0Ana= mes are affixed to them --=C2=A0 but a giggle's not satisfaction.=C2=A0 Oka= y,=C2=A0 =0Asometimes it can be, but I think not in this case.=0A=0AThe ant= hology has certainly revealed a lot of very interesting=C2=A0 =0Aattitudes = (about, for one thing, litigation) among certain poets, and=C2=A0 =0Amaybe = that's its "value."=C2=A0 But what you wrote here is the most cogent=C2=A0 = =0Athing, in my opinion, anyone's said about it:=0A=0A> could we be seeing = a real shift (or even rift) in attitudes between=C2=A0 =0A> younger and old= er poets?=C2=A0 Many of you will have been brought up=C2=A0 =0A> with compu= ter and be totally at ease with the computer age with its=C2=A0 =0A> impers= onal and intrusive ways.=0A=0AThere has definitely been a shift in the way = I configure time in my=C2=A0 =0Aown brain, and the presence of a computer h= as contributed to that.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0 =0AKNOW that the computer, as a kind = of outside-the-body brain, has=C2=A0 =0Achanged poetry.=C2=A0 In my own lif= e it is intrusive, but at the same time=C2=A0 =0Aan interesting tool -- and= there's the slippery slope.=C2=A0 And if we=C2=A0 =0Aslip, do we cling ont= o something, or let go and see where we land?=C2=A0 =0AEither way, it might= hurt.=0A=0Ax, Sharon Mesmer=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & = sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:57:42 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline John, Our poems' suckiness can fight...like with swords. Only fake generated ones. On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Will Larsen wrote: > @Ryan, > I have this strange feeling a computer program would make just as many > compositional "mistakes" as a human poet. Perhaps we could devise some sort > of poetical Turing test to tell the difference. Which raises the issue of > what to call it--a Homer Test? A RACTER test? A W(h)it-mus test--like > measuring acid, but cleverer, with a beard? > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:04 AM, John Cleary wrote: > > > I don't like "my" poem at all. Maybe I should auction it off to the > highest > > bidder? > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:32 AM, susan maurer > wrote: > > > > > somehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for > this > > > much discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also > > should > > > say there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the new > > > u.iowa book women poets and mentorship, very interesting. susan maurer> > > > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: > > > fake anthology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric > > > Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he > wouldn't mind if > you > > > swipe the minimalist ditty of his.> > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, > > Obododimma > > > Oha wrote:> > > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend > me > > > one of > > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that > > > anthology?> >> > -- Obododimma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > > ----> > > > > From: Glenn Bach > > To: > > > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 > > PM> > > > > Subject: Re: fake anthology> >> > I don't think I can beat a > > "three-peat," > > > but I appear twice, each > > with a> > different spelling of my name: > > Glenn > > > Bach and Glen Bach. At this > > point> > I'm thinking about using those > > two > > > poems as the seeds for a new > > project.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> > > > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote:> >> >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody > > beat > > > that?> >> > ==================================> > The Poetics List is > > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub > > > info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> >> >> >> > > > > ==================================> > The Poetics List is moderated & > > does > > > not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason > > Quackenbush> > > > jfq@myuw.net> > ==================================> The Poetics List > is > > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub > info: > > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from > Jamie. > > > > > > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <681952.92134.qm@web46209.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Troy, You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we should tolerate it because it has existed before. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > decline), the US and Australia. > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > our own backyard. > > A > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > world. > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > everyone. > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > A > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:02:13 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You mean, if I was thinking while writing that I am not writing any more but only thinking that I should write, and as they say, so forth? On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Did you think that as you wrote this? ;) > > Hal > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > halvard@gmail.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > On Oct 6, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I also had a similar thought today that zigzagged my mind, that I am not >> writing anything, that is what I thought! >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:27:53 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: Reading at NYC Telephone Grill 11-13 [on behalf of Martha King] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: gpwitd@aol.com To: martha.king@nmss.org Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:36:00 -0400 Subject: Revised: Reading at NYC Telephone Grill 11-13 Apologies for the crossed-out version you received earlier: Prose Pros presents CARMEN FIRAN and MARTHA KING Thursday, November 13, 2008, 6:30 [fairly promptly] to 8:30 p.m. at The Telephone Bar & Grill =96 149 Second Avenue btw 9th & 10th Streets All trains to Union Square, 6 to Astor Place, F to Second Avenue Carmen Firan Carmen Firan has been living in New York City since 2000, forging artistic links between New York's literary groups and the poets and writers of her native Romania. Widely celebrated in her home country, she writes fiction, poetry, and essays on a remarkable number of subjects. A special focus in her fiction is the complexities of life for immigrants who are suddenly confronted by irreversible changes when history, politics, and personal lif= e collide. Her essays often deal, fittingly enough, with communication =96 t= he loss and possible return of the redemptive power of words. See more at www.carmenfiran.com Her latest book, Words & Flesh (with a preface by fellow countryman Andrei Codrescu), is just out from Talisman House. "A crafter of wickedly satirical, sly and subtle short fictions," notes Isaiah Sheffer, artistic director of Symphony Space and host of "Selected Shorts" on NPR. "Her works have deep layers of darkness intermingled with dazzling moments of comic sadness," writes Kirby Olson. "It took a survivor of Eastern European tyranny like Carmen Firan to reveal the true absurdity of the American story. What seems normal and mundane to our jaded eyes becomes surreal and even a little bit tragic through the wry lens of her writing." = =96 Bruce Benderson Martha King Co-curator of the Prose Pros series, Martha King writes poetry, essays, fiction, and memoir (and sometimes memoir/fiction). Her most recent fictio= n collection, North & South, was greeted by Publisher's Weekly with these comments: "King attended the fabled Black Mountain College in the mid-1950s: her shor= t stories suggest the spare hardness and amused diffidence of Black Mountain poet Robert Creeley; wrenching plot twists and the instability of narrative itself=97King often interrupts to discard or evaluate the proceedings=97roo= t her best work in the postmodern contingency...." She has been writing memoir in the same vein for the past few years. A shor= t section, titled "A map of Charlottesville, 1945" appears in the new anthology Wreckage of Reason which has just been published by Spuyten Duyvil. The reading takes place in the comfortable backroom Lounge of the Telephone Bar, famed for fine vegetarian and carnivore fare, cooked with an English flair. Admission is free. For more information or to be added to (or dropped from) the e-mail list, contact enauen@aol.com or gpwitd@aol.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:02:41 -0700 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Jorgensen, Alexander" Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <48EB51B1.1202.599EC0C@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ever the brilliant man, Marcus. Has anyone heard of CLEVELAND. =A0 Hey-o! Alex --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Marcus Bales wrote: From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 6:10 PM On 7 Oct 2008 at 11:32, J.P. Craig wrote: > ... I think all of these are valid positions ...< Please define "valid" as you're using it here. Marcus =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:58:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <9778b8630810070957o37363d27j319f4af3be337379@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Will, True. We (read, those who can, unlike me) should devise a way to anthologize mistakes... wait...Isn't that Poetry.com? On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Ryan Daley wrote: > John, > > Our poems' suckiness can fight...like with swords. Only fake generated > ones. > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Will Larsen wrote: > >> @Ryan, >> I have this strange feeling a computer program would make just as many >> compositional "mistakes" as a human poet. Perhaps we could devise some >> sort >> of poetical Turing test to tell the difference. Which raises the issue of >> what to call it--a Homer Test? A RACTER test? A W(h)it-mus test--like >> measuring acid, but cleverer, with a beard? >> >> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:04 AM, John Cleary wrote: >> >> > I don't like "my" poem at all. Maybe I should auction it off to the >> highest >> > bidder? >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:32 AM, susan maurer >> wrote: >> > >> > > somehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for >> this >> > > much discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also >> > should >> > > say there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the >> new >> > > u.iowa book women poets and mentorship, very interesting. susan >> maurer> >> > > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: >> Re: >> > > fake anthology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric >> > > Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he > wouldn't mind if >> you >> > > swipe the minimalist ditty of his.> > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, >> > Obododimma >> > > Oha wrote:> > > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend >> me >> > > one of > > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >> > > anthology?> >> > -- Obododimma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message >> > ----> >> > > > From: Glenn Bach > > To: >> > > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 >> > PM> >> > > > Subject: Re: fake anthology> >> > I don't think I can beat a >> > "three-peat," >> > > but I appear twice, each > > with a> > different spelling of my name: >> > Glenn >> > > Bach and Glen Bach. At this > > point> > I'm thinking about using >> those >> > two >> > > poems as the seeds for a new > > project.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> >> > >> > > Jason Quackenbush wrote:> >> >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody >> > beat >> > > that?> >> > ==================================> > The Poetics List is >> > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & >> sub/unsub >> > > info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> >> >> >> > >> > > ==================================> > The Poetics List is moderated & >> > does >> > > not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason >> > Quackenbush> >> > > jfq@myuw.net> > ==================================> The Poetics List >> is >> > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub >> info: >> > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > _________________________________________________________________ >> > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from >> Jamie. >> > > >> > > >> > >> http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 >> > > ================================== >> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:21:05 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: Devaney/Fieled in Philly Friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0=A0=A0=A0This Friday at the Last Word Bookshop, at 40th off of Walnut (P= enn side), at 7pm,=A0Philly poets=A0Tom Devaney and Adam Fieled read as par= t of Leonard Gontarek's Last Word series. =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0 Adam Fieled is a poet based in Philadelphia. He has released thre= e books: Opera Bufa (Otoliths, 2007), Beams (Blazevox, 2007), and When You = Bit... (Otoliths, 2008). A fourth book, Chimes, is due out from Blazevox in= 2009. A magna cum laude grad of U of Penn, he also holds an MFA from New E= ngland College. =A0 =A0=A0=A0 Tom Devaney is the author of A Series of Small Boxes (Fish Drum, = Sept. 2007) and The American Pragmatist Fell in Love (Banshee Press, 1999).= Devaney is a Penn Senior Writing Fellow in the English Department at the U= niversity of Pennsylvania. He received his MFA in Creative Writing at Brook= lyn College, CUNY in 1998 where he was a student of Allen Ginsberg. =A0 =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:25:04 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Re: fake anthology Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Ha! I appear twice: once as "Christopher" and once as "Christophe". Talk ab= out duality and modernism! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Obododimma Oha" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: fake anthology > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:26:38 -0700 >=20 >=20 > Damn! I like this Jim guy. Could you link me up with him. He must=20 > be the craziest literary techno I've ever heard of. >=20 > -- Obododimma. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jim Andrews > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:08:41 PM > Subject: Re: fake anthology >=20 > > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > > > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_anth= o.html >=20 >=20 > i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. >=20 > jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was=20 > writing that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was=20 > that he was primarily interested in trying to get the program to=20 > write 'original', interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the=20 > poems were 'based' on other texts (used them as 'seed' material),=20 > but the algorithms produced work that could include as much or=20 > apparently as little of the originals as one liked. so that the=20 > result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the 'original' but=20 > otherwise not be particularly recognizable. >=20 > the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to=20 > anything i've written. >=20 > if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that=20 > you could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new=20 > one 'based on' what you fed it. >=20 > the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a=20 > professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these=20 > sorts of projects. >=20 > sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. >=20 > i expect jim is the brains behind this project. >=20 > ja > http://vispo.com >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:05:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <48EB51B1.1202.599EC0C@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hmm. I wonder what I'm about to walk into? By "valid" I mean informed by desires and assumptions that I think the majority of us should be able to accommodate in our little individual Cartesian theaters, either because they spring from desires we may share on some level or because they correspond to recognizable positions that have a history. Though I'm prepared to argue with many positions I'm willing to call valid. If you're getting at what my position is on all this, well, I lean toward thinking we should see this thing as a work of art rather than an attempt to steal someone's identity. I think it's just as clear here as it was in After Lorca that we're not seeing real toads in an imaginary garden. That is to say, this is not a pipe, and you can smoke it in a nonsmoking area. On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > On 7 Oct 2008 at 11:32, J.P. Craig wrote: >> ... I think all of these are valid positions ...< > > Please define "valid" as you're using it here. > > Marcus > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:35:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: Restoration Poems by Ed Baker [on behalf of Mark Kuniya] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline From:Country Valley Ed Baker's Restoration Poems is now available from the CVP website: http://web.mac.com/countryvalley "Here is the dwelling of past in present. The craft of abiding and an abiding craft. Here is our home to be." --John Martone "To feel an old house being restored actually and within the fresh materials of these poems 'chinked/w a secret/mix', brings us all at once to one fine poet's home: now sit down and read its timbres, words and boards, close to the fire." --David Giannini ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:30:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: Jules Boykoff & Kaia Sand reading in Eugene, OR [on behalf of Tim Shaner] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: twshaner@comcast.net To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:41:57 +0000 Subject: Jules Boykoff & Kaia Sand reading in Eugene, OR Saturday, October 11 A-New Poetry Series presents Jules Boykoff and Kaia Sand Time: 7:30 PM Admission: $0-$5 sliding scale @ DIVA 110 W Broadway Eugene, OR Kaia Sand is the author of the poetry collection interval (Edge Books 2004), selected as a Small Press Traffic Book of the Year. She created a dusie kollektiv (www.dusie.org) chapbook for her poem tiny arctic ice, which was re-configured as a broadside by Bowerbox Press and as an artist book by Jim Dine. She is creating multi-media investigations of political histories lodged in Pacific Northwest of the United States, as well as a series of poems collaged from dystopic documents. Sand co-edits the Tangent Press ( www.thetangentpress.org). Jules Boykoff is co-author, with Kaia Sand, of Landscapes of Dissent: Guerrilla Poetry & Public Space (Palm Press, 2008). He also wrote Beyond Bullets: The Suppression of Dissent in the United States (AK Press, 2007), The Suppression of Dissent: How the State and Mass Media Squelch USAmerican Social Movements (Routledge, 2006) and the poetry collection Once Upon a Neoliberal Rocket Badge (Edge Books, 2006), which was recently translated into Italian by GAMMM. A collaboration with visual artist Jim Dine is forthcoming (Steidl, 2008). In November 2006 he was an invited speaker at the United Nations Climate Change Conference in Nairobi, Kenya, where he presented research he carried out with his brother Maxwell Boykoff (Oxford University) on U.S. media coverage of global warming. Boykoff teaches political science and writing at Pacific University and lives in Portland, Oregon, USA where he co-curates the Tangent Reading Series with Rodney Koeneke and Kaia Sand. DIVA offers a monthly avant-garde poetry reading series that brings to Eugene emerging poets from Oregon as well as innovative writers touring the Northwest. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:30:38 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: one of my favorite people on the current economic crisis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed As she is a Canadian, Naomi Klein cannot run for US president. A stupid person from Alaska can, though. gb On Oct 6, 2008, at 5:48 PM, CA Conrad wrote: > Naomi Klein spoke at the University of Chicago last week. This > transcript > is something MARVELOUS to behold, fresh off the press and provided by > another one of my favorite people, Amy Goodman: > > click here to read: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/6/naomi_klein > > my presidential DREAM TICKET: Goodman and Klein > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > (if you click on PhillySound and look at today's 10/06/08 post > you'll see > that poet and former presidential candidate Eileen Myles is being > harassed > by the IRS) > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > G. Bowering, DLitt. Mostly meat and bones. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:36:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joel Chace Subject: Fwd: TINY BOOKS OF POETRY FEEDING THE WORLD ... LITERALLY! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Amy: I hope that you find this announcement suitable for posting on the list. Many Thanks, Joel Chace (on behalf of Eileen Tabios) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 12:26 PM Subject: TINY BOOKS OF POETRY FEEDING THE WORLD ... LITERALLY! To: jkervinen@letterboxes.org, joel.chace@gmail.com Joel and Jukka--I've blogged the Tiny Books and it's officially released. Feel free to forward announcement below (and Joel, pls also send to Buffalo List). THANKS! Eileen =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Meritage Press Announcement Meritage Press (MP) is pleased to announce two new releases from its "Tiny Book" series: Randion screpts by Jukka-Pekka Kervinen and (b)its by Joel Chase MP's "Tiny Books" are structured to align poetry with fair trade and economic development issues. They utilize small books (1 3/4" x 1 3/4") made in Nepal by artisans paid fair wages, as sourced by Baksheesh, a fair trade retailer. Photos of a sample "Tiny Book" are available at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lolabola/1618955048/in/photostrea= m as well as through Crg Hill's Poetry Scorecard at http://scorecard.typepad.com/crag_hills_poetry_score/haynaku/index.html . Another illustrated review by Geof Huth is available at http://dbqp.blogspot.com/2008/02/one-2-free-for-5ve-sex-sever-ache.html . Jukka-Pekka Kervinen is a Finnish writer, composer and visual artist. He has published 16 books so far, as well as numerous e-books and collaborative books; his texts also have appeared in several magazines, electronic publications and anthologies. His works are focused to modern technology, heavy use of computer for generation, manipulation and re-synthesizing of textual, visual and aural materials. Jukka lives in the small village Puhos, in Kitee, Finland. Joel Chace has published poetry and prose poetry in more than a dozen print and electronic collections. New from BlazeVox Books is CLEANING THE MIRROR: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, and from Paper Kite Press, MATTER NO MATTER, another full-length collection. For many years, Chace was Poetry Editor for the experimental electronic magazine 5_Trope. All profits from book sales will be donated to Heifer International, an organization devoted to reducing world hunger by promoting sustainable sources of food and income. This project reflects MP's belief that "Poetry feeds the world" in non-metaphorical ways. The Tiny Books create demand for fair trade workers' products while also sourcing donations for easing poverty in poorer areas of the world. Note, too, that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has awarded a $2.5 Million Matching Grant to Heifer, which means every dollar donated (e.g. through "Tiny Books") can be doubled! Each "Tiny Book" costs $10 plus $1.00 shipping/handling in the U.S. (email us first for non-U.S. orders). To purchase the "Tiny Books" and donate to Heifer International, send a check for $11.00 per book, made out to "Meritage Press" to Eileen Tabios Meritage Press 256 North Fork Crystal Springs Rd. St. Helena, CA 94574 Please specify which of the "Tiny Books" you are ordering, since the entire "Tiny Books" Series continue to be available: from "The Tradition by Juliana Spahr and some hay by Lars Palm and Speak which Hay(na)ku poems by Jill Jones and "=85And Then The Wind Did Blow..." Jainak=FA Poems by Ernesto Priego and Steps: A Notebook by Tom Beckett and all alone again by Dan Waber With "Tiny Books," MP also offers a new DIY, or Do-It-Yourself Model of publishing. You've heard of POD or print-on-demand? Well, these books' print runs will be based on HOD or Handwritten-on-Demand. MP's publisher, Eileen Tabios, will handwrite all texts into the Tiny Books' pages and books will be released to meet demand for as long as MP is able to source tiny books -- or until the publisher gets arthritis or debilitative carpal tunnel syndrome. FUNDAISING UPDATE: In addition to providing livestock, Heifer International also provides trees. In, 2007, Meritage Press' Tiny Books program sold enough Tiny Books to finance the donation equivalent of at least seven sets of tree-gifts. Here's what Heifer has to say about trees: One of Heifer International's most important commitments is to care for the earth. We believe development must be sustainable =97 that projects should be long-term investments in the future of people and the planet.That's why in addition to livestock, Heifer often provides families with trees. On a steep Tanzanian hillside, Heifer International helped a family learn to plant trees and elephant grass to keep the soil in place. Today, they have flourishing rows of leucaena trees and corn.Through training, families learn how to keep their small plots of land healthy and renew the soil for future generations by planting trees, using natural fertilizer, and limiting grazing.By helping families raise their animals in harmony with nature, you can fight poverty and hunger while ensuring a healthy, productive future for us all. Then of course there are the chickens, goats, water buffalos, pigs, ducks, honeybees, llamas....all of which can help ease hunger around the world. Meritage Press thanks you in advance for your support and hopes you enjoy Tiny Books -- small enough to become jewelry, but with poems big enough to resonate worldwide. ************** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=3Demlcntnew00000001) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:44:42 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <65968.8451.qm@web46214.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Doctor Camplin=2C You say "more defaults resulted in banks and places like Fannie Mae owning = houses rather than getting the money they were owed . . . " =20 So=2C why can't Fannie just adopt a lot of homeless people=2C and give them= houses in which to live=2C since "she" already owns them? Sincerely yours=2C Mister Ellis =20 > Date: Tue=2C 7 Oct 2008 07:44:58 -0700> From: emersoninst@YAHOO.COM> Subj= ect: Re: EXCITED for the math> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Don't kn= ow of any "deserving poor." I just know that if you look at the world histo= rically=2C you will see that the majority of people have been poor during t= hat time. Go back far enough=2C and everyone was poor. But only if you take= an evolutionary-anthropological view of things. I find it hillarious that = the Left is always attacking religious people for believing in creationism= =2C but then deny historical=2C anthropological=2C or evolutionary facts be= cause those facts conflict with their ideologies. > > As for the CEOs=2C I = do include them with those on the Left=2C as if you learn who these CEOs we= re=2C they were on the Left. The seeds for this mess were planted in the ve= ry creation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac insofar as it resulted in the sep= aration of those who sold the mortgages and those who owned them. This set = it up for the Clinton administration to first push the CEO of Fannie Mae at= the time=2C Franklin Raines=2C to encourage mortgages brokers to start off= ering mortgages to people without money or a job. Bush also liked the idea = of home ownership for everyone=2C so he continued pushing this ridiculous p= lan. Naturally=2C people without jobs or money can't pay their mortgages=2C= so they began defaulting=2C driving housing prices down. As housing slowly= became devalued=2C the housing market dried up. More defaults resulted in = banks and places like Fannie Mae owning houses rather than getting the mone= y they were owed=2C and as a consequence=2C we are in this mess. > > Troy C= amplin> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> Sent: Tuesday=2C October 7=2C = 2008 12:26:33 AM> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math> > Troy=2C> I sometimes= wonder if you are for real. Next you will introduce the term> "the deservi= ng poor." Do you remember that one from Ricardo's "dismal> science."> > As = for "naivete and ignorance=2C" are you referring to all genius Ceo's who> g= ot us into this mess?> > Ciao=2C> > Murat> > > On Mon=2C Oct 6=2C 2008 at 1= 1:05 AM=2C Troy Camplin wrote:> > > Poverty is the = natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is> > what is unusu= al. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead> > what caus= es wealth if we really=2C truly want to help the poor. Historically> > it h= as been free markets creating wealth=2C not government. Government has> > h= istorically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no> > f= riend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of> = > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the frees= t> > markets all have the cleanest environments=2C while those with strong = central> > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc=2C= the U.S.S.R.> > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a = city in a poor> > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywher= e. Not that we> > can't do better=2C as we certainly can=2C but the first t= hing we need to do is> > acknowledge reality in the world before we can pro= ceed to improve the world.> > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous = things=2C and cause more harm> > than good. They're as dangerous as the goo= d intentions that flow out of> > them. Good intentions minus an understandi= ng of reality is what keeps poor> > people poor in this world. At least=2C = I like to think that that's what's> > going on=2C because otherwise it mean= s that the Left are diabolical.> >> > Troy Camplin> >> >> > ----- Original = Message ----> > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@L= ISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Sunday=2C October 5=2C 2008 11:13:55 PM> > Sub= ject: Re: EXCITED for the math> >> > Nice to know that we can leave the fat= e of the poor in the hands of> > those generous rich people=2C who so nicel= y provide jobs and housing for> > everyone.> >> > Now=2C I've got nothing p= ersonally against the rich. Or even the> > moderately rich. But it would be= nice to see some perception of how> > much damage all-out corporatism and = global finance has done to the> > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all ar= ound the globe. Not to> > mention the millions of species that are presentl= y being wiped out=2C> > due to pollution and unregulated development and ev= erything that> > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. M= aybe some> > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry a= nd its> > effects=2C politically=2C environmentally=2C socially? Or is term= inal> > naivety the order of the day?> >> > A> > --> > Editor=2C Masthead: = http://www.masthead.net.au> > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com> > Hom= e page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> >= The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideline= s> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> >> > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not acc= ept all posts. Check guidelines> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu= /poetics/welcome.html> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List= is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub inf= o: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guide= lines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows= Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:50:23 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <681952.92134.qm@web46209.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How is a "free market"=2C which is a completely novel conceptual framework= =2C "naturally occuring?" It's a completely closed system. An account boo= k. If I'm missing something=2C please send a doe or a roe with a note in i= ts mouth=2C and tell me what it is. > Date: Tue=2C 7 Oct 2008 07:52:57 -0700> From: emersoninst@YAHOO.COM> Subj= ect: Re: EXCITED for the math> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Just bec= ause I find the Left despicable=2C that doesn't mean I like the Right=2C ei= ther. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the Left=2C a= nd they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved almost = identically). I'm a free market supporter=2C which isn't ideological at all= =2C because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free= market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts = in the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world= is occurring not because of corporations per se=2C but because the governm= ents there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the peopl= e than in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent= judiciaries=2C property rights protections=2C etc.) which have proven ever= ywhere they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Campl= in> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> Sent: Monday=2C October 6=2C 2008 8= :30:57 PM> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math> > The left is more diabolical= than the right? They both have their> monsters. And I'm not so certain tha= t "left" and "right" mean much any> more (though I'm noticing an interestin= g nascent post-communist> marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic g= overnments across the> west are steadily heading towards police states in t= he service of> corporate power - what else is the US government about these= days? Is> Blackwater such a marvellous thing=2C really=2C that massive pri= vatisation> of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible = for> most mass species extinction=2C and that occurs everywhere=2C not just= in> the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures> = on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across> the= globe=2C including the UK (where animal populations are in serious> declin= e)=2C the US and Australia.> > And from Tamberlaine on=2C people have accum= ulated huge amounts of> wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of ot= hers. No mystery> there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution = in the> "developing world" is our factories at work=2C without those pesky>= government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in> our = own backyard.> > A> > On Tue=2C Oct 7=2C 2008 at 2:05 AM=2C Troy Camplin wrote:> > Poverty is the natural state of things in t= he world for humans. Wealth is what is unusual. We need to stop asking what= causes poverty and ask instead what causes wealth if we really=2C truly wa= nt to help the poor. Historically it has been free markets creating wealth= =2C not government. Government has historically gotten wealthy through thef= t and threats. You will find no friend of government here -- whether it is = through the wrong-headedness of the welfare state or the "defense industry.= " The countries with the freest markets all have the cleanest environments= =2C while those with strong central governments controlling everything -- t= he former Eastern Bloc=2C the U.S.S.R. and now China -- have been the bigge= st polluters. Go to a city in a poor country and you will see unbelievable = pollution everywhere. Not that we can't do better=2C as we certainly can=2C= but the first thing we need to do is acknowledge reality in the world befo= re we can proceed to improve the> world.> > Naivety and ignorance are two v= ery dangerous things=2C and cause more harm than good. They're as dangerous= as the good intentions that flow out of them. Good intentions minus an und= erstanding of reality is what keeps poor people poor in this world. At leas= t=2C I like to think that that's what's going on=2C because otherwise it me= ans that the Left are diabolical.> >> > Troy Camplin> >> >> > ----- Origina= l Message ----> > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS= @LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Sunday=2C October 5=2C 2008 11:13:55 PM> > S= ubject: Re: EXCITED for the math> >> > Nice to know that we can leave the f= ate of the poor in the hands of> > those generous rich people=2C who so nic= ely provide jobs and housing for> > everyone.> >> > Now=2C I've got nothing= personally against the rich. Or even the> > moderately rich. But it would = be nice to see some perception of how> > much damage all-out corporatism an= d global finance has done to the> > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all = around the globe. Not to> > mention the millions of species that are presen= tly being wiped out=2C> > due to pollution and unregulated development and = everything that> > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money.= Maybe some> > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry= and its> > effects=2C politically=2C environmentally=2C socially? Or is te= rminal> > naivety the order of the day?> >> > A> > --> > Editor=2C Masthead= : http://www.masthead.net.au> > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com> > H= ome page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> >= The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideline= s & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> >> > =3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept= all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poeti= cs/welcome.html> >> > > > -- > Editor=2C Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.= au> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com> Home page: http://www.alisoncro= ggon.com> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is moderated & do= es not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buff= alo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics L= ist is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub = info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie= . http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:05:32 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just looked up the original entry for this anthology and found my name li= sted in the table of contents but when I tried to access "my" poem in this = online production by alphabetical order of my name, I found my name missing= .=A0 Thus I have no idea what is or isn't in this anthology under my name a= lthough I am listed in a long list of poets supposedly included in this boo= k.=A0 If anybody would be kind enough to let me know what, if anything, is = included in this book=A0attributed to me=A0, I would appreciate it.=A0 Rega= rds, Tom Savage --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Will Larsen wrote: From: Will Larsen Subject: Re: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 12:06 PM @Ryan, I have this strange feeling a computer program would make just as many compositional "mistakes" as a human poet. Perhaps we could devise some sort of poetical Turing test to tell the difference. Which raises the issue of what to call it--a Homer Test? A RACTER test? A W(h)it-mus test--like measuring acid, but cleverer, with a beard? On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:04 AM, John Cleary wrote: > I don't like "my" poem at all. Maybe I should auction it off to the highest > bidder? > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:32 AM, susan maurer wrote: > > > somehow i missed the beginning of al this and dont hae ths site for this > > much discussed fake antholgy. could someone flash up its name? also > should > > say there was a real program on fri ant nyc's lillian vernon on the new > > u.iowa book women poets and mentorship, very interesting. susan maurer> > > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 05:08:38 +0800> From: jfq@MYUW.NET> Subject: Re: > > fake anthology> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > My friend Eric > > Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he > wouldn't mind if you > > swipe the minimalist ditty of his.> > On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, > Obododimma > > Oha wrote:> > > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me > > one of > > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that > > anthology?> >> > -- Obododimma.> >> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message > ----> > > > From: Glenn Bach > > To: > > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 > PM> > > > Subject: Re: fake anthology> >> > I don't think I can beat a > "three-peat," > > but I appear twice, each > > with a> > different spelling of my name: > Glenn > > Bach and Glen Bach. At this > > point> > I'm thinking about using those > two > > poems as the seeds for a new > > project.> >> > Huzzah.> >> > G.> >> >> > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote:> >> >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody > beat > > that?> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub > > info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> >> >> >> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is moderated & > does > > not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html> >> > Jason > Quackenbush> > > jfq@myuw.net> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is > > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:54:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > If these poems are made one-size-fits-all rather than custom made > based on an analysis and resynthesis per poet (and thus having > individual poetic style) then it becomes a lot less interesting to me. There's info about that at http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/anthology_spoiler.html If I understand correctly, there is 0% correlation between the poets and 'their poems'. Although several poets wrote in to the Poetics list = noting some perceived correlation between their own work and what appeared = under their name in the 'anthology'. I think they were mistaken, actually. > Frankly I'm somewhat surprised that this kind of postmodern move can > still generate anger. Appropriation, problematizing notions of > authorship, creating art about art, art as critique destabilizing art- > world social conventions and power structures...isn't this standard > practice? Haven't poet's immune systems built up resistance to this > kind of thing yet? I guess not. That's an informed response, Philip. About pomo art. But the poets on = the Poetics list are quite varied in their sophistication concerning such things. From absolutely clueless to very knowlegeable indeed. Because contemporary poetry scenes and approaches run the gamut from = cluelessness about technology and contemporary art (apart from print poetry) to local dominance to ... to ... international media art synthesis of arts, = media, and technology. Also, Jim Carpenter's project deals with the poemy poem. Not visual = poetry or sound poetry or obviously algorithmic poetry and so on. So Jim's = project deals with a type of poetry that most poets and readers of poetry = understand to be poetry. I expect that, whether one is talking about poetry or visual art or = music yadayada, what will get a wide audience will not so much be how the = project deals with the sort of issues we raise concerning generative = art--fascinating and genuinely important as those issues are, I believe--but issues that are = more widely understood. And, of course, the appeal to vanity in this project = is also, well, amusing. 99.9999% of the folks out there will only get into the issues of = generative art when they are led there via a string of considerations that don't = start there. ja http://vispo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:37:39 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: fake anthology Comments: To: Nicky Melville In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This is precisely like reading your horoscope and saying "Oh my gosh, this is totally relevant to my life right at this instant!" Every poem was randomly assigned. I do, however, acknowledge the existence of the possibility that I may have altered this or that poem or assigned poems based on word matches from book titles harvested from SPD. And I further acknowledge that I can provide no objective proof of my actions in this regard. Even further -- now that these ideas have been generated by list discussion, I may well use such ethically questionable practices in future projects. I'll have to sleep on it. In any case, they were all randomly assigned. In fact, this is the first time I've seen your name. -steve On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Nicky Melville wrote: > hey, > > aside from th fact that, for whatever reason, i was pleased t hav made th > cut (and yes, i am younger, > th age of Christ in fact)...here's my tuppence worth: > > th poem i'm credited with is very interesting in that 5 lines closely > resemble lines from one of my actual poems, but curiously, one that has not > appeared on th internet, nor even been widely distributed outside Edinburgh. > > some of th lines in question: > Of rest > Of promptitude > Of clothes > > this is similar to a poem i wrote about David Hume using the chapter titles > from A Direct Treatise of Human Nature, all of which start with Of... > > i don't think anyone has so far said that their 'poem' is anything like > their 'normal' work. > is this just a coincidence or is it an incredibly well read algorithm? > > all th best, > nick-e > > p.s. any opinion on this Steve? > > > ________________________________ > Get Hotmail on your mobile from Vodafone Try it Now! -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Will Larsen Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <20081007172504.E54D513F08@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ryan, Or, in a less serious vein, http://verybadpoetry.com/ On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Christophe Casamassima < christophecasamassima@graffiti.net> wrote: > Ha! I appear twice: once as "Christopher" and once as "Christophe". Talk > about duality and modernism! > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Obododimma Oha" > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 05:26:38 -0700 > > > > > > Damn! I like this Jim guy. Could you link me up with him. He must > > be the craziest literary techno I've ever heard of. > > > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Jim Andrews > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:08:41 PM > > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > > > > Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > > > > > > http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > > > > > > i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. > > > > jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he is/was > > writing that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was > > that he was primarily interested in trying to get the program to > > write 'original', interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the > > poems were 'based' on other texts (used them as 'seed' material), > > but the algorithms produced work that could include as much or > > apparently as little of the originals as one liked. so that the > > result could be made to 'stylistically' resemble the 'original' but > > otherwise not be particularly recognizable. > > > > the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious relation to > > anything i've written. > > > > if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such that > > you could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new > > one 'based on' what you fed it. > > > > the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is a > > professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these > > sorts of projects. > > > > sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. > > > > i expect jim is the brains behind this project. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > -- > Powered By Outblaze > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:06:18 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicky Melville Subject: Re: fake anthology Comments: cc: steve.mclaugh@gmail.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hey=2C aside from th fact that=2C for whatever reason=2C i was pleased t hav made= th cut (and yes=2C i am younger=2C=20 th age of Christ in fact)...here's my tuppence worth: th poem i'm credited with is very interesting in that 5 lines closely resem= ble lines from one of my actual poems=2C but curiously=2C one that has not = appeared on th internet=2C nor even been widely distributed outside Edinbur= gh. =20 some of th lines in question: Of rest Of promptitude Of clothes =20 this is similar to a poem i wrote about David Hume using the chapter titles= from A Direct Treatise of Human Nature=2C all of which start with Of...=20 =20 i don't think anyone has so far said that their 'poem' is anything like the= ir 'normal' work. is this just a coincidence or is it an incredibly well read algorithm? all th best=2C=20 nick-e p.s. any opinion on this Steve? =20 _________________________________________________________________ Win New York holidays with Kellogg=92s & Live Search http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354033/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:46:59 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jim, just a quibble: I would say that any perceived similarities between our work and our "work" were likely to be coincidences rather than mistakes (but hey, who knows, I could make those I saw portals of discovery). Full disclosure: I wholeheartedly believe in the pursuit of significant coincidences and the search for synchronicity. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net On 10/7/08, Jim Andrews wrote: > > If I understand correctly, there is 0% correlation between the poets and > 'their poems'. Although several poets wrote in to the Poetics list noting > some perceived correlation between their own work and what appeared under > their name in the 'anthology'. I think they were mistaken, actually. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70810071002m45682cacte8a8a8f82568fc9f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Especially the "so forth" part. Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:02 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > You mean, if I was thinking while writing that I am not writing any > more but > only thinking that I should write, and as they say, so forth? > > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Halvard Johnson >wrote: > >> Did you think that as you wrote this? ;) >> >> Hal >> >> McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. >> They're a bridge to nowhere. >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@earthlink.net >> halvard@gmail.com >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html> > >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html> > >> >> >> >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> I also had a similar thought today that zigzagged my mind, that I >> am not >>> writing anything, that is what I thought! >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing > star! > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:51:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: anthologizing mistakes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, I suppose it could be done. Ask poets to send in their own mistakes or to trawl the web for mistakes they see other as having made; this would probably best be done as a blog to allow for links to mistakes (to avoid fussy legal issues) and to allow readers to point out mistaken identifications of mistakes (and this could be extended ad infinitum). Or maybe a wiki would be better? Only one that foregrounds the palimpsest of edits rather than the finished thing. I adore mistakes. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:52:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <432206.93675.qm@web54402.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) I propose a Fake Generation game. Anyone born between Jan. 1, 1935, and Dec. 31, 1939, is eligible for membership. Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 7, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > This "fake anthology" and the question of "stolen" or "invented" > identity it has raised would certainly be useful to me in developing > the concept of the "indivirtual", which I tried to play with > sometime ago but only succeeded in publishing a rather starved essay > on my blog: > > http://obododimma.livejournal.com/#entry_640 > I think I have got very relevant data now from "fake anthology" and > from those who have been writing in. > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: J.P. Craig > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:32:34 PM > Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > It may be generational, but I doubt it. I think the divide here has a > couple of sources. I do think it's important to distinguish between > the pleasure of the reader and the pleasure of the creator. I suspect > many people who are happy with the poem attributed to them are happy > as readers. There may be a few who look at the poem attributed to > them as a piece of found art, and that's a sort of authorship, no > doubt, although it doesn't fit the sort of writing experience you > describe. > > Anyway, here's a list of all the various positions or motivations I > could come up with. It's by no means exhaustive. I tried to be fair, > but no doubt I slipped in a dig or two despite myself. > > There are people who, perhaps like yourself, see the computer as an > agent rather than a tool. This is one reason why I think things like > the Turing Test keep arising. > > Some people are unhappy because they see poetry as one of the great > humanist endeavours. That it, like opposable thumbs, are part of what > makes us truly human. They tend to talk about soul, meaning, and > Turing Tests. > > There are people who are invested in such methods of creation and who > see the computer as a tool, like a typewriter. This may speak to the > divide you identify. > > There are people who are invested in control more than others. That > is, some of the folks outraged also don't place value in things like > automatic writing, chance operations, and so on. > > Conversely, there are people who get very excited (in a happy, > appreciative way) about found work, chance operations, computer- > generated texts, and so on. > > Some may think of this as a sort of mechanical muse and that the > poets' names listed here have a status similar to those real frogs in > Moore's imaginary garden or Lorca in Spicer's After Lorca. > > There are also people who feel that their name/brand is threatened by > such activities. They therefore see this as fraud, theft, or some > other threat to the value of their name and, possibly, to the real > income it generates. I know at least two major poets have made it > know that this is the issue for them. > > There are people who see this as part of a disruption of subjectivity > and who value it as a prompt to think about what it means to be an > author. > > There are others who see it as a threat to their author-ity as the > creator. This is starting to overlap, but I want to make the > distinction. > > Some people would be okay with this project if the poem attributed to > them or to some they like weren't what they consider a bad poem. > > Others would be proud to call the poem the product of their own > labor. (There may even be those who would be happy to have a > published book or two regardless of having written it themselves or > not.) > > I bet others can add more to this list, and I'd be grateful if > someone did. I think all of these are valid positions, but I disagree > with some of them. > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > >>> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >>> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >>> anthology? >>> >>> -- Obododimma. >>> >> >> I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely >> surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you >> seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a >> computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't >> honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it >> because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't >> get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of >> writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production >> which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - >> putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the >> mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be >> very rather tedious! >> >> I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger >> for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is >> merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally >> mystified. >> >> Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because >> I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I >> wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out >> myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I >> don't relinquish that lightly. >> >> Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift >> (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many >> of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at >> ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. >> Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very >> very private word, without television (although they were just >> about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones >> would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! >> - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all >> the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which >> was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small >> pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been >> phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the >> cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know >> you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what >> real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that >> comparison can be alarming. >> >> Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the >> 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our >> attitudes towards this. Just a thought. >> >> Geraldine >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: one of my favorite people on the current economic crisis In-Reply-To: <4A674789-D607-4B27-9592-48103F6AE2A5@sfu.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Stupid people from Texas get two terms. No questions asked. Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 7, 2008, at 1:30 PM, George Bowering wrote: > As she is a Canadian, Naomi Klein cannot run for US president. A > stupid person from Alaska can, though. > > gb > > On Oct 6, 2008, at 5:48 PM, CA Conrad wrote: > >> Naomi Klein spoke at the University of Chicago last week. This >> transcript >> is something MARVELOUS to behold, fresh off the press and provided by >> another one of my favorite people, Amy Goodman: >> >> click here to read: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/6/ >> naomi_klein >> >> my presidential DREAM TICKET: Goodman and Klein >> >> CAConrad >> http://PhillySound.blogspot.com >> (if you click on PhillySound and look at today's 10/06/08 post >> you'll see >> that poet and former presidential candidate Eileen Myles is being >> harassed >> by the IRS) >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > G. Bowering, DLitt. > Mostly meat and bones. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:52:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Drunken Boat Design Contest - $2500 - 01 Dec 08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.drunkenboat.com/db10/designcontest/=20 Drunken Boat Design Contest=20 =20 Help Drunken Boat < www.drunkenboat.com >, an international online = journal of the arts, celebrate its 10th anniversary. Part of our = conceptual origin has been in exhibiting works of art that use the = medium of the Web as constitutive of meaning; with this in mind we are = soliciting proposals for the design of a special 10th issue dedicated to = arts and literature online. The winning designer receives a $2500 = honorarium in return for designing the home page of a publication that = attracts nearly half a million unique visitors per year. =20 ENTRY PROCESS=20 To submit a design proposal, follow these steps:=20 1) Email designcontest@drunkenboat.com with your design proposal (as per = below).=20 2) Pay the $25 Entry Fee online or by mail. Make sure your payment is = attached to your entry.=20 3) Include complete contact information on all submitted materials.=20 Note: No materials will be returned (unless prior arrangement has been = reached).=20 Please submit disposable materials wherever possible.=20 =20 ENTRY FORMAT=20 Send your design proposal in one of the following formats:=20 1) a link to a website=20 2) one or more JPG, GIF or PNG files=20 3) one or more PDF files=20 4) a SWF file (Adobe Flash)=20 =20 ENTRY FEE=20 Pay the $25 Entry Fee online through Paypal < = www.drunkenboat.com/db9/donate.html >, or by=20 personal or organizational check. All payments sent by regular mail must = include the designer=92s=20 current email address and contact information.=20 =20 MAILING ADDRESS=20 Drunken Boat=20 119 Main St.=20 Chester, CT 06412=20 USA=20 =20 PERMISSION=20 Contestants grant Drunken Boat permission to display a designer=92s = name, company name, client name and/or relevant design work at = www.drunkenboat.com.=20 =20 COPYRIGHT NOTICE=20 Drunken Boat assumes all submitted artwork is the property of the = designer or design firm submitting the work. Drunken Boat will not be = liable for any copyright infringement on the part of the contestant. All = rights to the work will revert to the designer upon publication.=20 =20 ETHICAL GUIDELINES=20 Drunken Boat reserves the right to revoke the award from any individual = or company, whose artwork does not fall within the ethical guidelines = set forth by the magazine, whether before, during or after the judging = is complete. Fees are non-refundable once the entry has been submitted = for any reason.=20 =20 TERMS OF DELIVERY=20 The winner will receive a $2500 honorarium, payable upon launch date of = the 10th anniversary issue. The winner will be responsible for all = aspects of the home page design, including its interface with all other = sections of the issue (particularly the 10 mini-sites). The winner must = also be willing to work with other individuals, as needed, to enable = completion of the issue in time for a Winter 2008/2009 launch.=20 =20 DEADLINE December 01 2008=20 =20 RULES=20 The Drunken Boat Design Contest is open to designers from any = discipline, from anywhere in the world, particularly individuals attuned = to the potential dynamicity of designing work online. We at Drunken Boat = are open to any number of aesthetic models that might encompass this = issue=92s contents. Best of all would be an interactive / dynamic = component that actively invites reader participation. The only = parameters of the contest are that all of the home page designs must be = structured to encompass a group of 10 mini-sites designed by Drunken = Boat Web Editor / Site Designer Shawn M. McKinney. A sample of the = visual design of the 10 mini-sites may be found here: = www.drunkenboat.com/db10/designcontest.=20 =20 All entries will be considered potential home pages; some finalists may = ultimately provide alternate home page designs.=20 =20 NOTES=20 We don=92t expect you to submit an entire Web site. We do expect you to = provide us with a clear sense of the graphic =93look and feel=94 of a = home page, as well as a proposed system of navigation, for Drunken Boat, = Issue No. 10. In addition, all proposed design elements must be = aesthetically compatible with the 10 mini-sites mentioned previously. = Although your email confirmation and digital artwork will be sufficient = for our judges to assess your entry properly, contestants may physically = mail design samples to allow for a more in-depth evaluation process. In = any event, no materials will be returned (unless prior arrangement has = been reached). Please submit disposable materials wherever possible.=20 =20 We urge you to explore the archives of www.drunkenboat.com. Take a look = at some of the creative work we have published in the past, while you = consider the design sensibility that has shaped previous issues. Also, = you might want to read the =93designer=92s note=94 (essay) found in the = Oulipo section of Drunken Boat, Issue No. 8. Locate it as follows: = www.drunkenboat.com/db8 > oulipo > shawn m. mckinney > =93Oulipo Redux: = Extensible, Exegetic, Ex Post Facto.=94 =20 A spirit of collaboration is essential to the success of this contest = and this special issue of Drunken Boat. The winning designer will be = expected to work closely with a staff of designers and editors to = complete the design of Issue No. 10. Mavericks need not apply.=20 =20 All entries must be received by midnight. No late entries will be = considered.=20 =20 poster design < shawn m. mckinney > www.typonica.com ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:20:37 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: andrew burke Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <8A5E3B89-AA67-4A11-A98C-89097FA47D35@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hmm, I was surprised to find my name there. A friend told me I was there, so I checked. My 'fame' gland was momentarily excited - but then I read the poem. My 'shame' gland leapt into life. Awful; no redeeming features at all. I was disappointed in them portraying me like that. What if somebody should even half-way believe it was mine? Awful. An absolutely strange mix of 'poets' - just names drawn out of a cyber hat. I feel used - I laughed at the project until I found myself in it - so much work for what? It isn't even a good sham in as much as I doubt there is a public readership out there who would believe in it. Too much exposure has happened for that to be achieved. ... but a fun game for those who created it. That is all. It would be doubly cool if the perpetrators now offered us a 'true' anthology with OUR poems in it as Issue 2. Andrew 2008/10/8 J.P. Craig : > Hmm. I wonder what I'm about to walk into? > > By "valid" I mean informed by desires and assumptions that I think the > majority of us should be able to accommodate in our little individual > Cartesian theaters, either because they spring from desires we may share on > some level or because they correspond to recognizable positions that have a > history. Though I'm prepared to argue with many positions I'm willing to > call valid. > > If you're getting at what my position is on all this, well, I lean toward > thinking we should see this thing as a work of art rather than an attempt to > steal someone's identity. I think it's just as clear here as it was in After > Lorca that we're not seeing real toads in an imaginary garden. That is to > say, this is not a pipe, and you can smoke it in a nonsmoking area. > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > >> On 7 Oct 2008 at 11:32, J.P. Craig wrote: >>> >>> ... I think all of these are valid positions ...< >> >> Please define "valid" as you're using it here. >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > JP Craig > http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Andrew http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:40:00 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found, reading "my" poems that I had a tendency to read for signs of my signature on the poem. I had entertained the possibility that there were word choices in the machinery linked to specific poems culled from online journals, but then, several of my friends who are not poets were also included so that seemed unlikely. in any case, the exercise of reading in to these poems i think is part of the layer of making this interesting rather than just an experiment with 10000 monkeys banging on 10000 typewriters. On Oct 8, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Steve McLaughlin wrote: > This is precisely like reading your horoscope and saying "Oh my gosh, > this is totally relevant to my life right at this instant!" Every poem > was randomly assigned. > > I do, however, acknowledge the existence of the possibility that I may > have altered this or that poem or assigned poems based on word matches > from book titles harvested from SPD. And I further acknowledge that I > can provide no objective proof of my actions in this regard. Even > further -- now that these ideas have been generated by list > discussion, I may well use such ethically questionable practices in > future projects. I'll have to sleep on it. In any case, they were all > randomly assigned. In fact, this is the first time I've seen your > name. > > -steve > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Nicky Melville > wrote: >> hey, >> >> aside from th fact that, for whatever reason, i was pleased t hav >> made th >> cut (and yes, i am younger, >> th age of Christ in fact)...here's my tuppence worth: >> >> th poem i'm credited with is very interesting in that 5 lines closely >> resemble lines from one of my actual poems, but curiously, one >> that has not >> appeared on th internet, nor even been widely distributed outside >> Edinburgh. >> >> some of th lines in question: >> Of rest >> Of promptitude >> Of clothes >> >> this is similar to a poem i wrote about David Hume using the >> chapter titles >> from A Direct Treatise of Human Nature, all of which start with Of... >> >> i don't think anyone has so far said that their 'poem' is anything >> like >> their 'normal' work. >> is this just a coincidence or is it an incredibly well read >> algorithm? >> >> all th best, >> nick-e >> >> p.s. any opinion on this Steve? >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Get Hotmail on your mobile from Vodafone Try it Now! > > > > -- > Stephen McLaughlin > Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 > 3082SX Rotterdam, NL > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:24:17 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: PJ Subject: from east to west, fall '08 - a link would be nice! In-Reply-To: <158566.31693.qm@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The link to the issue was missing in my previous post which makes it all very difficult to read in spite of it being free! Find the fall issue of "from east to west: bicoastal verse" here: http://www.geocities.com/pj_nights PJ PJ wrote: Yet another quarterly issue done! The fall '08 issue of from east to west: bicoastal verse is packed full with 44 full color pages of featured poets, Patrick Carrington & Constance Pavliska, artists & photographers, Scott Davis, Constance Pavliska, Dave Wade & more, "time" poets, Brion Berkshire, Geraldine Cannon, Wendy Howe, Jim Knowles, Doug Knowlton, Ken Markee, Alice Persons, & Patricia Smith Ranzoni, and our "Best of the Net" nominations, Courtney Campbell, Laurel Dodge, Helmuth Filipowitsch, Gil Helmick, David Moreau, & Barton Smock. Again the issue is available from Lulu.com as either a free .pdf download or an at-cost print paperback. Submission call for Winter '08/'09: For the winter themed section, we are looking for poetry about "travel" to cure us of our cabin fever. Send your submissions and a short bio in the body of an email with "travel submission" in the subject line. Also, we are looking for visual artists to be featured in the winter and future issues. If interested, send an inquiry with a link to samples of your work. All submissions should be sent to PJ Nights at tangerine_reflections@yahoo.com. PJ Nights ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:37:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you otherwise was lying to you. Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Troy, You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we should tolerate it because it has existed before. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > decline), the US and Australia. > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > our own backyard. > > A > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > world. > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > everyone. > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > A > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:39:13 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jason (oh and thank you all for the other replies, but I just want to take up a point with Jason - sorry Jason - you've got the short straw this time! ). Aren't you being slightly contradictory here? You say your name has little to do with you. Fair enough, the word pain is not pain itself but it's the word we use to convey a state of mind or body. Your name may be a series of sounds and letters but that is what language is - so you could be saying that language has little to do with you. Try it out for a day. No talking, no word thought, no name - eer no don't try it out because except for exceptional cases it's usually called death. It's virtually impossible not to inhabit language ipso facto it has everything to do with us. And I think, with all respect, that's why you end up seeming to contradict yourself by saying that you would object if you're name was attached to something you didn't like or was appropriated for foul means. But doesn't this demonstrate that we can't pick and choose - and that is the danger of being complacent about our names being stolen. Lots of you had a giggle at the anthology and thought it hilarious but what if the next list with all your names isn't so amusing - is something very dark. It could be. This could just be the grooming to soften you up. Ah they love it - now let's give them more. The bottom line is it's identity theft and you don't care. On an even more serious note I believe many on this list are dead and I find this rather sick. It includes my dear friend Bob Cobbing. So we're not talking long dead but recently dead with a widow and children. Poets with friends and family in living memory are fair game? Maybe I should check out what they have attributed to Bob - but I just can't do it because I know it's not him. The very callousness of these inclusion of the dead show that the people who did it don't give a fig about you, me or anyone - they are using us all - it's a practical joke - hilarious? I don't think so. If I was a widow and saw my darling husband in this list I wouldn't be amused. Bob Cobbing used every artificial device available (he was the first person I knew who got a computer type thingy - we tried typing in poems into it and it keep saying 'fatal error' - we laughed our socks off at this assessment of our writing but it got a bit frustrating after a while). He/I loved and thrived off found writings, cut and paste, stick it in the tumble dryer, leave it in the sun, bung it in a shredder and see what comes out - brilliant - we have to try and bump ourselves out of our own mindsets (or into them before the word and world got to them). Computer generate your own poems but don't give up your identity when it pleases you otherwise you have to accept that it will be taken from you when it doesn't. Yes? Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) >I was talking to my mother about this the other day. She's 60 and was >remarking at how little I cared about my name appearing on things like >this anthology. My response is that my name has very little to do with me. >It's a series of sounds and/or letters that is used to designate me, and >that i use to identify things that i've written, but beyond that? it isn't >much of anything. by publishing, which was a choice that I made, i put my >name OUT THERE. and i think that part of the generational difference that >you may be talking about here is a different conception of what OUT THERE >means. the public space of the internet, and of discourse, is one where >Identity has very little to do with one's name and much more to do with >ones actions. this anthology, because it's clearly computer generated, and >because the way the names were presented were en masse in a sort of storm >of names is very different from the sort of thing i might object to, such >as someone specifically using my name to endorse something i disagree with >or using my bio to try to get crappy poems published. There is no action >attributed to me in my name's inclusion in this thing. The only thing that >my name being included in this says about me is that I have a minor public >presence as a writer, which fact is the result of intentional action on my >part. the project itself, as a commentary on the field and as a >utilization of machine generated poetry, is worthy and as such I don't >really see anything objectionable about it at all. what you're calling >real privacy to me looks like something that is either illusory or an over >strong definition. a rose is a rose is a rose, and no number of garbage >poems about roses have ever diminished the rose from being a beautiful >flower. just the same, a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush is a JF >Quackenbush, and attributing a computer generated poem or poems to JF >Quackenbush says nothing about me or my work. so why should it bother me? > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > >>> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your >>> fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? >>> >>> -- Obododimma. >>> >> >> I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely surprised >> at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem more than >> happy to have your names attached to something a computer wrote. I just >> find this extremely weird. I can't honestly see the satisfaction gained >> but I'm not disputing it because obviously much satisfaction has been >> gained. But I can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's >> the very act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book >> production which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - >> putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of >> transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be very rather >> tedious! >> >> I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger for >> some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is merely to >> see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally mystified. >> >> Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I was >> delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I wasn't >> included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out myself and >> somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I don't relinquish >> that lightly. >> >> Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift (or >> even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many of you >> will have been brought up with computer and be totally at ease with the >> computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my >> generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very very private word, without >> television (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the >> homes) telephones (public ones would be streets away if you knew anyone >> who had a phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no >> fridges, cars and all the other things we take for granted. Apart from >> the radio which was the main source of entertainment our known world was >> a small pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been >> phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the cost of >> our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you don't >> miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what real privacy >> was so we have something to compare it to - and that comparison can be >> alarming. >> >> Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the >> 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our >> attitudes towards this. Just a thought. >> >> Geraldine >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ welcome.html > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:46:06 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The free market is an open, not a close system. Just like the ecosystem. It= is what is known as a spontaneous order, which means it is a self-organizi= ng system. All self-organizing systems are open systems. All other ways of = "organizing" an economy is centralized, ordered by people who cannot have e= nough information to make good systems, and are in fact closed systems. Tha= t is why they all break down over time, as they are susceptible to closed-s= ystem entropy. All such systems are ideological in nature. The free market= is also a positive-sum game, not a zero-sum game. Which is really to say t= he same thing as to say it is an open system. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A--= --- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Stephen Ellis =0AT= o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 1:50:23 PM= =0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0AHow is a "free market", which is = a completely novel conceptual framework, "naturally occuring?" It's a comp= letely closed system. An account book. If I'm missing something, please s= end a doe or a roe with a note in its mouth, and tell me what it is.=0A> Da= te: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 07:52:57 -0700> From: emersoninst@YAHOO.COM> Subject: R= e: EXCITED for the math> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Just because I= find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the Right, either. Fals= e dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the Left, and they end = up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved almost identically)= .. I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at all, because sayi= ng you support a naturally-occurring human system like free market economie= s is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in the world alo= ng the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is occurring no= t because of corporations per se, but because the governments there are soc= ialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than in providin= g the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent judiciaries, prop= erty rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Camplin> > > ---= -- Original Message ----> From: Alison Croggon > To: P= OETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM> Subj= ect: Re: EXCITED for the math> > The left is more diabolical than the right= ? They both have their> monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "r= ight" mean much any> more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-= communist> marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments acro= ss the> west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of> = corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is> Blac= kwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation> of stat= e violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for> most mass spec= ies extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in> the grim tips of E= astern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures> on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across> the globe, includin= g the UK (where animal populations are in serious> decline), the US and Aus= tralia.> > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of= > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery> ther= e. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the> "developing wo= rld" is our factories at work, without those pesky> government regulations = that make it so inconvenient and expensive in> our own backyard.> > A> > On= Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin wrote:> = > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is= what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instea= d what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historicall= y it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has = historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness= of the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the fre= est markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong cen= tral governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S= ..S.R. and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a p= oor country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we= can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is= acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the> wor= ld.> > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more = harm than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out o= f them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poo= r people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's g= oing on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical.> >> > Troy Camplin> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----> > From: Alison Cro= ggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Sent: Sun= day, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM> > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math> >> >= Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of> > tho= se generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for> > ever= yone.> >> > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the>= > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how> > m= uch damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the> > lifest= yles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to> > mention the mi= llions of species that are presently being wiped out,> > due to pollution a= nd unregulated development and everything that> > follows on from that. Mon= ey is only interested in money. Maybe some> > questioning on the place of t= he so-called "defence" industry and its> > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal> > naivety the order of the day?= > >> > A> > --> > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au> > Blog: htt= p://theatrenotes.blogspot.com> > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com> >= > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics List is moderated & does n= ot accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.= edu/poetics/welcome.html> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> > The Poetics= List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsu= b info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> >> > > > -- > Editor, = Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.co= m> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html> > =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A_____________________________= ____________________________________=0AWant to do more with Windows Live? L= earn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie.=0Ahttp://windowslive.com/connect/p= ost/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid= =3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub= info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:51:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Will, I actually like the poem on that site. Oh well. On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > I found, reading "my" poems that I had a tendency to read for signs of my > signature on the poem. I had entertained the possibility that there were > word choices in the machinery linked to specific poems culled from online > journals, but then, several of my friends who are not poets were also > included so that seemed unlikely. in any case, the exercise of reading in to > these poems i think is part of the layer of making this interesting rather > than just an experiment with 10000 monkeys banging on 10000 typewriters. > > > On Oct 8, 2008, at 5:37 AM, Steve McLaughlin wrote: > > This is precisely like reading your horoscope and saying "Oh my gosh, >> this is totally relevant to my life right at this instant!" Every poem >> was randomly assigned. >> >> I do, however, acknowledge the existence of the possibility that I may >> have altered this or that poem or assigned poems based on word matches >> from book titles harvested from SPD. And I further acknowledge that I >> can provide no objective proof of my actions in this regard. Even >> further -- now that these ideas have been generated by list >> discussion, I may well use such ethically questionable practices in >> future projects. I'll have to sleep on it. In any case, they were all >> randomly assigned. In fact, this is the first time I've seen your >> name. >> >> -steve >> >> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Nicky Melville >> wrote: >> >>> hey, >>> >>> aside from th fact that, for whatever reason, i was pleased t hav made th >>> cut (and yes, i am younger, >>> th age of Christ in fact)...here's my tuppence worth: >>> >>> th poem i'm credited with is very interesting in that 5 lines closely >>> resemble lines from one of my actual poems, but curiously, one that has >>> not >>> appeared on th internet, nor even been widely distributed outside >>> Edinburgh. >>> >>> some of th lines in question: >>> Of rest >>> Of promptitude >>> Of clothes >>> >>> this is similar to a poem i wrote about David Hume using the chapter >>> titles >>> from A Direct Treatise of Human Nature, all of which start with Of... >>> >>> i don't think anyone has so far said that their 'poem' is anything like >>> their 'normal' work. >>> is this just a coincidence or is it an incredibly well read algorithm? >>> >>> all th best, >>> nick-e >>> >>> p.s. any opinion on this Steve? >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Get Hotmail on your mobile from Vodafone Try it Now! >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Stephen McLaughlin >> Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 >> 3082SX Rotterdam, NL >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:48:15 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <70CA0B7A-13FE-4DD9-AB70-3430CC3850B8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ah, that makes sense now. Thank you. On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 12:48 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Especially the "so forth" part. > > Hal > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > halvard@gmail.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:02 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > You mean, if I was thinking while writing that I am not writing any more >> but >> only thinking that I should write, and as they say, so forth? >> >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Halvard Johnson > >wrote: >> >> Did you think that as you wrote this? ;) >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. >>> They're a bridge to nowhere. >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@earthlink.net >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html >>> >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 6, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>> >>> I also had a similar thought today that zigzagged my mind, that I am not >>> >>>> writing anything, that is what I thought! >>>> >>>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:00:41 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <011201c928de$635586d0$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Geraldine, Here's my point: Am I JF Quackenbush who writes poetry and publishes it in various small journals? Am I JF Quackenbush the widely published microbiologist? Am I Jason Quackenbush the minor league midwestern professional wrestler? If you google my name, you'll find all of those people. One of them is the result a collection of actions that I have taken. The others have nothing to do with me. Ultimately, it's just the internet and who cares. I can't pick and choose how my name gets used detached from my actions and the "JF Quackenbush" who is part of this anthology is peripherally related to me, but it's in that grey area where it doesn't get my back up. Now were someone to start a smear campaign against me and accuse me of taking actions that I find reprehensible, like murder or publishing bad poetry, that I might take exception to but because they're attributing actions to me that aren't mine. I don't think any reasonable person with a reasonable familiarity with contemporary poetry ought to be able to tell that the poems in this thing are computer generated, and the inclusion of "new" poetry by Bill Shakespeare, ee cummings, and Edna St. Vincent Millay should clue in everybody else who isn't paying close enough attention that these poems aren't real acts by the persons whose names are listed. That to me as a fundamental difference. As a side note, this idea of name as personal property is not necessarily something that existed once upon a time and has vanished in the information age. Prior to the last couple hundred years and the expansion of copyright protections and libel/slander laws, there have been all kinds of uses of false attribution in order to make some sort of political or artistic point. Heck, some of the greatest selling poetry of all time, the stuff in the Bible, is largely pseudoepigraphal. Pseudoepigapha of unknown quantities like myself is maybe a little bit strange, but frankly I think that that sort of democratization is precisely what makes this particular project so interesting. It's precisely the sort of question that a piece of conceptual work like this should be acting. I think of all the poets I only know and interact with through the internet, and all that a lot of you are are neames to me. Who are Jessica Smith, Anny Ballardini, Geof Gatza, or Jim Andrews? They're all there in the Anthology, and I "know" them all, and as writers I know and respect their work. But really that knowing is just text on a screen, well and pictures and sounds sometimes, but really, it's not direct human contact despite the fact that if I was asked I might say, yeah I know so and so. I think it's possible that I've built up an unsupportable and overly strong idea of identity in the face of what I think is a reasonable rejection of Barthes claim that there is no author just text. And I don't think I'm alone in that. But in a world where all so many of us know of one another, and I think this is wider than just poetry but extends to everyone who is at all involved in human interaction through the internet which these days at least it's largely impossible not to be, is through a form of authorship, I think a project like this has value in the way that it highlights the vagaries of what actually is going on in that authorship which vagaries led to the authors epitaph in the first place. Who knows though. I could be wrong. Maybe I really am a professional wrestler and shouldn't be talking about this literary theory stuff at all. -Jason (or is it?) On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:39 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > Hello Jason (oh and thank you all for the other replies, but I just > want to take up a point with Jason - sorry Jason - you've got the > short straw this time! ). > > Aren't you being slightly contradictory here? You say your name > has little to do with you. Fair enough, the word pain is not pain > itself but it's the word we use to convey a state of mind or body. > Your name may be a series of sounds and letters but that is what > language is - so you could be saying that language has little to do > with you. Try it out for a day. No talking, no word thought, no > name - eer no don't try it out because except for exceptional cases > it's usually called death. It's virtually impossible not to > inhabit language ipso facto it has everything to do with us. > > And I think, with all respect, that's why you end up seeming to > contradict yourself by saying that you would object if you're name > was attached to something you didn't like or was appropriated for > foul means. But doesn't this demonstrate that we can't pick and > choose - and that is the danger of being complacent about our names > being stolen. Lots of you had a giggle at the anthology and > thought it hilarious but what if the next list with all your names > isn't so amusing - is something very dark. It could be. This > could just be the grooming to soften you up. Ah they love it - now > let's give them more. The bottom line is it's identity theft and > you don't care. > > On an even more serious note I believe many on this list are dead > and I find this rather sick. It includes my dear friend Bob > Cobbing. So we're not talking long dead but recently dead with a > widow and children. Poets with friends and family in living memory > are fair game? Maybe I should check out what they have attributed > to Bob - but I just can't do it because I know it's not him. The > very callousness of these inclusion of the dead show that the > people who did it don't give a fig about you, me or anyone - they > are using us all - it's a practical joke - hilarious? I don't > think so. If I was a widow and saw my darling husband in this list > I wouldn't be amused. > > Bob Cobbing used every artificial device available (he was the > first person I knew who got a computer type thingy - we tried > typing in poems into it and it keep saying 'fatal error' - we > laughed our socks off at this assessment of our writing but it got > a bit frustrating after a while). He/I loved and thrived off found > writings, cut and paste, stick it in the tumble dryer, leave it in > the sun, bung it in a shredder and see what comes out - brilliant > - we have to try and bump ourselves out of our own mindsets (or > into them before the word and world got to them). Computer > generate your own poems but don't give up your identity when it > pleases you otherwise you have to accept that it will be taken from > you when it doesn't. Yes? > > > > Geraldine > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > >> I was talking to my mother about this the other day. She's 60 and >> was remarking at how little I cared about my name appearing on >> things like this anthology. My response is that my name has very >> little to do with me. It's a series of sounds and/or letters that >> is used to designate me, and that i use to identify things that >> i've written, but beyond that? it isn't much of anything. by >> publishing, which was a choice that I made, i put my name OUT >> THERE. and i think that part of the generational difference that >> you may be talking about here is a different conception of what >> OUT THERE means. the public space of the internet, and of >> discourse, is one where Identity has very little to do with one's >> name and much more to do with ones actions. this anthology, >> because it's clearly computer generated, and because the way the >> names were presented were en masse in a sort of storm of names is >> very different from the sort of thing i might object to, such as >> someone specifically using my name to endorse something i >> disagree with or using my bio to try to get crappy poems >> published. There is no action attributed to me in my name's >> inclusion in this thing. The only thing that my name being >> included in this says about me is that I have a minor public >> presence as a writer, which fact is the result of intentional >> action on my part. the project itself, as a commentary on the >> field and as a utilization of machine generated poetry, is worthy >> and as such I don't really see anything objectionable about it at >> all. what you're calling real privacy to me looks like something >> that is either illusory or an over strong definition. a rose is a >> rose is a rose, and no number of garbage poems about roses have >> ever diminished the rose from being a beautiful flower. just the >> same, a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush, >> and attributing a computer generated poem or poems to JF >> Quackenbush says nothing about me or my work. so why should it >> bother me? >> >> On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> >>>> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one >>>> of your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >>>> anthology? >>>> >>>> -- Obododimma. >>>> >>> >>> I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely >>> surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you >>> seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a >>> computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't >>> honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it >>> because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I >>> can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very >>> act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book >>> production which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest >>> of it - putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just >>> the mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission >>> can be very rather tedious! >>> >>> I certainly accept that something like this could act as a >>> trigger for some poets to develop work from it but if the >>> satisfaction is merely to see your name on a poem you didn't >>> write then I'm totally mystified. >>> >>> Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification >>> because I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to >>> find out I wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to >>> check it out myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is >>> who I am and I don't relinquish that lightly. >>> >>> Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real >>> shift (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older >>> poets? Many of you will have been brought up with computer and >>> be totally at ease with the computer age with its impersonal and >>> intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were >>> brought up in a very very private word, without television >>> (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the >>> homes) telephones (public ones would be streets away if you >>> knew anyone who had a phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - >>> and of course no fridges, cars and all the other things we take >>> for granted. Apart from the radio which was the main source of >>> entertainment our known world was a small pocket of our >>> neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much >>> of it for the better but it has been at the cost of our >>> privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you >>> don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what >>> real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and >>> that comparison can be alarming. >>> >>> Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the >>> 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our >>> attitudes towards this. Just a thought. >>> >>> Geraldine >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >> >> Jason Quackenbush >> jfq@myuw.net >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Jason, for being the middleman in the transaction! -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jason Quackenbush To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 11:08:38 PM Subject: Re: fake anthology My friend Eric Rosenfield is in it and is not a poet, so I bet he wouldn't mind if you swipe the minimalist ditty of his. On Oct 7, 2008, at 4:22 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of > your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Glenn Bach > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:09:04 PM > Subject: Re: fake anthology > > I don't think I can beat a "three-peat," but I appear twice, each > with a > different spelling of my name: Glenn Bach and Glen Bach. At this > point > I'm thinking about using those two poems as the seeds for a new > project. > > Huzzah. > > G. > > > Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> I love it. I'm in it 3 times. Anybody beat that? > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Mine had similies in it. (Yes, that is a proper spelling). That proves that the computer is a bad poet. gb On Oct 7, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > Jim, just a quibble: I would say that any perceived similarities > between our work and our "work" were likely to be coincidences rather > than mistakes (but hey, who knows, I could make those I saw portals of > discovery). > > Full disclosure: I wholeheartedly believe in the pursuit of > significant coincidences and the search for synchronicity. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > > > On 10/7/08, Jim Andrews wrote: >> >> If I understand correctly, there is 0% correlation between the >> poets and >> 'their poems'. Although several poets wrote in to the Poetics list >> noting >> some perceived correlation between their own work and what >> appeared under >> their name in the 'anthology'. I think they were mistaken, actually. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Geo Bowering No additives. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 04:27:51 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & Gr= eenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most people wo= uldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't mixed.= Socialism, as in sane=A0governance/mixed economies works well enough, ain'= t nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement favored b= y Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is ok in old E= urope, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. =A0Besides, don't people get bor= ed with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's done w= onders for the enviroment. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: = Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0AS= ent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the mat= h=0A=0AThe financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it.=A0 Ther= e is nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you = otherwise was lying to you. =0A=0ABelieving in evolution is not ideological= ; not believing in it is.=0ABelieving in a heliocentric solar system is not= ideological; not believing in it is.=0ABelieving in the spontaneous order = known as the free market system of economics is not ideological; not believ= ing in it is.=0A=0AMy anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any = more than it excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the ori= gins of poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and somethi= ng that we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the = natural state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in= others. Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situ= ations, allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game.= =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Murat Nemet-= Nejat =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesda= y, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0ATro= y,=0A=0AYou mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only= not=0Abelieving in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have= you=0Abeen following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning o= ut, the=0Acredit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (y= our=0A"natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion = at the=0Aroot of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but = a casino=0Ain the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank.=0A= =0AAs for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, w= e=0Ashould tolerate it because it has existed before.=0A=0ACiao,=0A=0AMurat= =0A=0A=0AOn Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mea= n I like the=0A> Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to = the Right or the=0A> Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism a= nd Communism behaved=0A> almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, = which isn't ideological at=0A> all, because saying you support a naturally-= occurring human system like free=0A> market economies is much like saying y= ou support the existence of deserts in=0A> the world along the 30th paralle= l. The pollution in the developing world is=0A> occurring not because of co= rporations per se, but because the governments=0A> there are socialist klep= tocracies more interested in robbing the people than=0A> in providing the k= inds of institutions (rule of law with independent=0A> judiciaries, propert= y rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere=0A> they are tried= to life the poor out of their poverty.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A> --= --- Original Message ----=0A> From: Alison Croggon =0A= > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:5= 7 PM=0A> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A>=0A> The left is more diaboli= cal than the right? They both have their=0A> monsters. And I'm not so certa= in that "left" and "right" mean much any=0A> more (though I'm noticing an i= nteresting nascent post-communist=0A> marxism cropping up here and there). = Democratic governments across the=0A> west are steadily heading towards pol= ice states in the service of=0A> corporate power - what else is the US gove= rnment about these days? Is=0A> Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really,= that massive privatisation=0A> of state violence? Rampant development is p= robably responsible for=0A> most mass species extinction, and that occurs e= verywhere, not just in=0A> the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look a= t the recent figures=0A> on the declining populations of common birds (or b= ees or frogs) across=0A> the globe, including the UK (where animal populati= ons are in serious=0A> decline), the US and Australia.=0A>=0A> And from Tam= berlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of=0A> wealth through pil= laging the goods and labour of others. No mystery=0A> there. Corporations a= re no different. All that pollution in the=0A> "developing world" is our fa= ctories at work, without those pesky=0A> government regulations that make i= t so inconvenient and expensive in=0A> our own backyard.=0A>=0A> A=0A>=0A> = On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin =0A> wr= ote:=0A> > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. = Wealth is=0A> what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty a= nd ask instead=0A> what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the = poor. Historically=0A> it has been free markets creating wealth, not govern= ment. Government has=0A> historically gotten wealthy through theft and thre= ats. You will find no=0A> friend of government here -- whether it is throug= h the wrong-headedness of=0A> the welfare state or the "defense industry." = The countries with the freest=0A> markets all have the cleanest environment= s, while those with strong central=0A> governments controlling everything -= - the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R.=0A> and now China -- have been the = biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor=0A> country and you will see unbe= lievable pollution everywhere. Not that we=0A> can't do better, as we certa= inly can, but the first thing we need to do is=0A> acknowledge reality in t= he world before we can proceed to improve the=0A>=A0 world.=0A> >=A0 Naivet= y and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm=0A> than= good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of=0A> the= m. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor=0A>= people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's=0A= > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical.=0A> >= =0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > ----- Original Message ----=0A> > Fro= m: Alison Croggon =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.= EDU=0A> > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: EXCI= TED for the math=0A> >=0A> > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the= poor in the hands of=0A> > those generous rich people, who so nicely provi= de jobs and housing for=0A> > everyone.=0A> >=0A> > Now, I've got nothing p= ersonally against the rich. Or even the=0A> > moderately rich. But it would= be nice to see some perception of how=0A> > much damage all-out corporatis= m and global finance has done to the=0A> > lifestyles of the poor and unkno= wn all around the globe. Not to=0A> > mention the millions of species that = are presently being wiped out,=0A> > due to pollution and unregulated devel= opment and everything that=0A> > follows on from that. Money is only intere= sted in money. Maybe some=0A> > questioning on the place of the so-called "= defence" industry and its=0A> > effects, politically, environmentally, soci= ally? Or is terminal=0A> > naivety the order of the day?=0A> >=0A> > A=0A> = > --=0A> > Editor, Masthead:=A0 http://www.masthead.net.au=0A> > Blog: http= ://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A> > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com= =0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is modera= ted & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: htt= p://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Che= ck=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.= html=0A> >=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> Editor, Masthead:=A0 http://www.masthead.= net.au=0A> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A> Home page: http://www= .alisoncroggon.com=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List= is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub= info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.= Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderat= ed & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & = sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:06:46 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: EXcited by the Math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable much that has been done in the name of socialism is barbaric.=A0 Orwell lon= ged for a humane brand of Socialism. & much of Europe, not the East,=A0seem= s to be moving=A0in that direction. The 2 party system in the States is mor= ally and intellectually broke. =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 06:17:18 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William James Austin Subject: Blackbox online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello everyone, The Blackbox summer gallery is now online.? Per usual, we have a mix of semi-regulars and new contributors.? One more contributor will be added shortly, but I wanted to keep my promise to go live in a couple of days.? So here it is. Go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link.? Then take a long stroll (scroll) through the galleries until to arrive at the latest.? Enjoy! Best, William James Austin (Bill) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:11:51 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yes, Geraldine, dead poets are there. And, could we be wrong to think that dead poets don't write (bite/byte?)? Perhaps, in the thinking of the anthologists, dead poets, disembodied as they are, are the number one netizens. Which was why I had to write a comment on behalf of my friend, e.e. cummings, who is also listed. -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Geraldine Monk To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 1:39:13 AM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) Hello Jason (oh and thank you all for the other replies, but I just want to take up a point with Jason - sorry Jason - you've got the short straw this time! ). Aren't you being slightly contradictory here? You say your name has little to do with you. Fair enough, the word pain is not pain itself but it's the word we use to convey a state of mind or body. Your name may be a series of sounds and letters but that is what language is - so you could be saying that language has little to do with you. Try it out for a day. No talking, no word thought, no name - eer no don't try it out because except for exceptional cases it's usually called death. It's virtually impossible not to inhabit language ipso facto it has everything to do with us. And I think, with all respect, that's why you end up seeming to contradict yourself by saying that you would object if you're name was attached to something you didn't like or was appropriated for foul means. But doesn't this demonstrate that we can't pick and choose - and that is the danger of being complacent about our names being stolen. Lots of you had a giggle at the anthology and thought it hilarious but what if the next list with all your names isn't so amusing - is something very dark. It could be. This could just be the grooming to soften you up. Ah they love it - now let's give them more. The bottom line is it's identity theft and you don't care. On an even more serious note I believe many on this list are dead and I find this rather sick. It includes my dear friend Bob Cobbing. So we're not talking long dead but recently dead with a widow and children. Poets with friends and family in living memory are fair game? Maybe I should check out what they have attributed to Bob - but I just can't do it because I know it's not him. The very callousness of these inclusion of the dead show that the people who did it don't give a fig about you, me or anyone - they are using us all - it's a practical joke - hilarious? I don't think so. If I was a widow and saw my darling husband in this list I wouldn't be amused. Bob Cobbing used every artificial device available (he was the first person I knew who got a computer type thingy - we tried typing in poems into it and it keep saying 'fatal error' - we laughed our socks off at this assessment of our writing but it got a bit frustrating after a while). He/I loved and thrived off found writings, cut and paste, stick it in the tumble dryer, leave it in the sun, bung it in a shredder and see what comes out - brilliant - we have to try and bump ourselves out of our own mindsets (or into them before the word and world got to them). Computer generate your own poems but don't give up your identity when it pleases you otherwise you have to accept that it will be taken from you when it doesn't. Yes? Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) >I was talking to my mother about this the other day. She's 60 and was >remarking at how little I cared about my name appearing on things like >this anthology. My response is that my name has very little to do with me. >It's a series of sounds and/or letters that is used to designate me, and >that i use to identify things that i've written, but beyond that? it isn't >much of anything. by publishing, which was a choice that I made, i put my >name OUT THERE. and i think that part of the generational difference that >you may be talking about here is a different conception of what OUT THERE >means. the public space of the internet, and of discourse, is one where >Identity has very little to do with one's name and much more to do with >ones actions. this anthology, because it's clearly computer generated, and >because the way the names were presented were en masse in a sort of storm >of names is very different from the sort of thing i might object to, such >as someone specifically using my name to endorse something i disagree with >or using my bio to try to get crappy poems published. There is no action >attributed to me in my name's inclusion in this thing. The only thing that >my name being included in this says about me is that I have a minor public >presence as a writer, which fact is the result of intentional action on my >part. the project itself, as a commentary on the field and as a >utilization of machine generated poetry, is worthy and as such I don't >really see anything objectionable about it at all. what you're calling >real privacy to me looks like something that is either illusory or an over >strong definition. a rose is a rose is a rose, and no number of garbage >poems about roses have ever diminished the rose from being a beautiful >flower. just the same, a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush is a JF >Quackenbush, and attributing a computer generated poem or poems to JF >Quackenbush says nothing about me or my work. so why should it bother me? > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > >>> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your >>> fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? >>> >>> -- Obododimma. >>> >> >> I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely surprised >> at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem more than >> happy to have your names attached to something a computer wrote. I just >> find this extremely weird. I can't honestly see the satisfaction gained >> but I'm not disputing it because obviously much satisfaction has been >> gained. But I can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's >> the very act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book >> production which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - >> putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of >> transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be very rather >> tedious! >> >> I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger for >> some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is merely to >> see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally mystified. >> >> Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I was >> delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I wasn't >> included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out myself and >> somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I don't relinquish >> that lightly. >> >> Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift (or >> even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many of you >> will have been brought up with computer and be totally at ease with the >> computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my >> generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very very private word, without >> television (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the >> homes) telephones (public ones would be streets away if you knew anyone >> who had a phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no >> fridges, cars and all the other things we take for granted. Apart from >> the radio which was the main source of entertainment our known world was >> a small pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been >> phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the cost of >> our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you don't >> miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what real privacy >> was so we have something to compare it to - and that comparison can be >> alarming. >> >> Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the >> 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our >> attitudes towards this. Just a thought. >> >> Geraldine >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ welcome.html > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I agree. Sorry. ja http://vispo.com > Jim, just a quibble: I would say that any perceived similarities > between our work and our "work" were likely to be coincidences rather > than mistakes (but hey, who knows, I could make those I saw portals of > discovery). > > Full disclosure: I wholeheartedly believe in the pursuit of > significant coincidences and the search for synchronicity. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 20:00:18 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii No, Hal. Let's use a computer program to generate a "fake" generation! That, I think, would be fair. -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Halvard Johnson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:52:30 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) I propose a Fake Generation game. Anyone born between Jan. 1, 1935, and Dec. 31, 1939, is eligible for membership. Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 7, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > > This "fake anthology" and the question of "stolen" or "invented" > identity it has raised would certainly be useful to me in developing > the concept of the "indivirtual", which I tried to play with > sometime ago but only succeeded in publishing a rather starved essay > on my blog: > > http://obododimma.livejournal.com/#entry_640 > I think I have got very relevant data now from "fake anthology" and > from those who have been writing in. > > -- Obododimma. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: J.P. Craig > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:32:34 PM > Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > It may be generational, but I doubt it. I think the divide here has a > couple of sources. I do think it's important to distinguish between > the pleasure of the reader and the pleasure of the creator. I suspect > many people who are happy with the poem attributed to them are happy > as readers. There may be a few who look at the poem attributed to > them as a piece of found art, and that's a sort of authorship, no > doubt, although it doesn't fit the sort of writing experience you > describe. > > Anyway, here's a list of all the various positions or motivations I > could come up with. It's by no means exhaustive. I tried to be fair, > but no doubt I slipped in a dig or two despite myself. > > There are people who, perhaps like yourself, see the computer as an > agent rather than a tool. This is one reason why I think things like > the Turing Test keep arising. > > Some people are unhappy because they see poetry as one of the great > humanist endeavours. That it, like opposable thumbs, are part of what > makes us truly human. They tend to talk about soul, meaning, and > Turing Tests. > > There are people who are invested in such methods of creation and who > see the computer as a tool, like a typewriter. This may speak to the > divide you identify. > > There are people who are invested in control more than others. That > is, some of the folks outraged also don't place value in things like > automatic writing, chance operations, and so on. > > Conversely, there are people who get very excited (in a happy, > appreciative way) about found work, chance operations, computer- > generated texts, and so on. > > Some may think of this as a sort of mechanical muse and that the > poets' names listed here have a status similar to those real frogs in > Moore's imaginary garden or Lorca in Spicer's After Lorca. > > There are also people who feel that their name/brand is threatened by > such activities. They therefore see this as fraud, theft, or some > other threat to the value of their name and, possibly, to the real > income it generates. I know at least two major poets have made it > know that this is the issue for them. > > There are people who see this as part of a disruption of subjectivity > and who value it as a prompt to think about what it means to be an > author. > > There are others who see it as a threat to their author-ity as the > creator. This is starting to overlap, but I want to make the > distinction. > > Some people would be okay with this project if the poem attributed to > them or to some they like weren't what they consider a bad poem. > > Others would be proud to call the poem the product of their own > labor. (There may even be those who would be happy to have a > published book or two regardless of having written it themselves or > not.) > > I bet others can add more to this list, and I'd be grateful if > someone did. I think all of these are valid positions, but I disagree > with some of them. > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > >>> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of >>> your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >>> anthology? >>> >>> -- Obododimma. >>> >> >> I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely >> surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you >> seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a >> computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't >> honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it >> because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I can't >> get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of >> writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production >> which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - >> putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just the >> mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission can be >> very rather tedious! >> >> I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger >> for some poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is >> merely to see your name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally >> mystified. >> >> Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because >> I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I >> wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out >> myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is who I am and I >> don't relinquish that lightly. >> >> Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift >> (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many >> of you will have been brought up with computer and be totally at >> ease with the computer age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. >> Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were brought up in a very >> very private word, without television (although they were just >> about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones (public ones >> would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to ring! >> - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all >> the other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which >> was the main source of entertainment our known world was a small >> pocket of our neighbourhood. The pace of change has been >> phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the >> cost of our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know >> you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what >> real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and that >> comparison can be alarming. >> >> Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the >> 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our >> attitudes towards this. Just a thought. >> >> Geraldine >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:26:55 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: anthology In-Reply-To: <70CA0B7A-13FE-4DD9-AB70-3430CC3850B8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline It would be a way to interrogate our mistakes. We could sit back and "understand" our own flaws. It would be like having a town hall debate, but with thoughtful questions. On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Especially the "so forth" part. > > Hal > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > halvard@gmail.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:02 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > You mean, if I was thinking while writing that I am not writing any more >> but >> only thinking that I should write, and as they say, so forth? >> >> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Halvard Johnson > >wrote: >> >> Did you think that as you wrote this? ;) >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. >>> They're a bridge to nowhere. >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@earthlink.net >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html >>> >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 6, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>> >>> I also had a similar thought today that zigzagged my mind, that I am not >>> >>>> writing anything, that is what I thought! >>>> >>>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 19:57:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <8A5E3B89-AA67-4A11-A98C-89097FA47D35@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 1) I view the writer of the algorythm, program, whatever, as well as the writers of any source material (but there doesn't seem to be any? ???) to be the writers of this work (except if placing it in .pdf format involved indents, for example); when I decided this, I started having very much more of a problem with the use of names of people who did not write the program with the results. It disguises the essential nature of the writtenness of computer programs, deliberately, and seems to align with posthuman theory I disagree with. It disguises the fact that the writing is "results" or "output" -- of, I may point out, a "test." Is the test of the system the real thing? Is the system completed? I don't know. What was the test bed? Can you feed this back in and get a different anthology? It also raises another question, which is, 2) has the writer read the work? He has called the results poetry, but has he read it? How does he know? His reading would make it more "his" -- his response: to publish it not under his name. Making Anne's reading of the poem ascribed to her, finding in it poetry, a second reading, not a first one. The first "reading" unfortunately cannot be the machines, because um, they can't read. They can scan. (How was the text fed in? Or not -- just trawled? Any intervention of any type? Programmed intervention? Human intervention not via programming? Any humans read anything? Tweak the code during output?) 3) Also, my piece is really terrible. It is just awful. At first, I was objecting to the program, since it was producing dreck. Then I thought, maybe something about poetry and aesthetics. Now I think: what a miserably aimed, sloppily controlled, misanthropic project. What was it devised to do? Why is that design or intention important, inherent, significant, or not? (for example, it is a design through and through?) Why did the writer insert or collate harvested names -- many of whom have very specific ideas and various ideas -- into a text that was "one substance"? That they were (mostly) poets from lists were postings about readings, publications, etc., has replaced discussion? 4) post-identity = posthuman? All best, Catherine Daly not the author of ALL SHOOK UP > > If you're getting at what my position is on all this, well, I lean toward > thinking we should see this thing as a work of art rather than an attempt to > steal someone's identity. I think it's just as clear here as it was in After > Lorca that we're not seeing real toads in an imaginary garden. That is to > say, this is not a pipe, and you can smoke it in a nonsmoking area. > > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 02:07:16 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sharon, Thanks so much for your reply. I honestly don't understand their satisfaction with being given a poem - it's not the same as a found poem you find yourself - its all done and dusted with no input from them whatsoever except the frisson of seeing their name - and then they have the 'hilarity' to argue that their name doesn't matter. Are they are reading everyone else's fake poems! They just don't seem to see the contradiction - nor the paucity of it. Hilarious! Bloody hell. I despair. I think the lesser known are most thrilled so maybe we shouldn't be to harsh on them but catch my next letter to Jason where I outline some more of my other concerns. London 86! Was that at Young Vic Theatre on The Cut? I think I also read at the Festival Hall. 20 years ago! Oh no. 22 years ago. Not water but torrents under the bridge. How lovely that you were there. Take care, And best wishes, Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > Geraldine, > > I write to you as a huge fan of your work -- I first saw you read in > London in '86, in connection (I think, if memory serves) with MHorovitz's > Grandchildren of Albion anthology -- and with no disrespect whatsoever. > In your post, you wrote: > >> But I can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very >> act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction > > Indeed. So much so that having a little hoax poem (or two or three) with > one's name on it included among over 3,000 other little hoax poems > could/should never detract from that. There's no real satisfaction to be > gained from seeing one's name on a poem one didn't write (sometimes > there's no satisfaction from seeing one's name on a poem one did > write!). There's a giggle, yeah, at the joke -- that the poems are so > obviously not the work of the many, many poets whose names are affixed to > them -- but a giggle's not satisfaction. Okay, sometimes it can be, but > I think not in this case. > > The anthology has certainly revealed a lot of very interesting attitudes > (about, for one thing, litigation) among certain poets, and maybe that's > its "value." But what you wrote here is the most cogent thing, in my > opinion, anyone's said about it: > >> could we be seeing a real shift (or even rift) in attitudes between >> younger and older poets? Many of you will have been brought up with >> computer and be totally at ease with the computer age with its >> impersonal and intrusive ways. > > There has definitely been a shift in the way I configure time in my own > brain, and the presence of a computer has contributed to that. I KNOW > that the computer, as a kind of outside-the-body brain, has changed > poetry. In my own life it is intrusive, but at the same time an > interesting tool -- and there's the slippery slope. And if we slip, do > we cling onto something, or let go and see where we land? Either way, it > might hurt. > > x, Sharon Mesmer > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:46:11 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Bernstein Subject: "Audacity of Mendacity" placards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my election placards are now collected at *Sibila*: http://sibila.com.br/sIbyl90placards.html --- http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <011201c928de$635586d0$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Some comments in defense of the "perpetrators" being pilloried as wicked, wicked people: On Oct 7, 2008, at 8:39 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > > > And I think, with all respect, that's why you end up seeming to > contradict yourself by saying that you would object if you're name > was attached to something you didn't like or was appropriated for > foul means. But doesn't this demonstrate that we can't pick and > choose - and that is the danger of being complacent about our names > being stolen. Lots of you had a giggle at the anthology and > thought it hilarious but what if the next list with all your names > isn't so amusing - is something very dark. It could be. This > could just be the grooming to soften you up. Ah they love it - now > let's give them more. The bottom line is it's identity theft and > you don't care. Something very dark? Are you really comparing an obvious misattribution done as part of an artwork to, what, blacklists? Terrorist watch lists? What does "something very dark" mean? If it's theft, I'd just like to say I still have my name, and no one that really matters would be confused longer than a heartbeat over whether that's me in that anthology or not. It's easy to claim this is identity theft. But it's not. Not in any sense that would hold up in court. Maybe you could win a civil suit claiming your name has declined in value and that's what your income is based on. But it is not identify theft. It is obviously, as many have observed, not real. Again: This is not a pipe. In my case, the answer to the "what if the next list [with your name] isn't so amusing" would be: I'd object then because it would then be appropriate, by my light, to object. That is, we can pick and choose. Granted, I can't control whether or not I'm on some terrorist watch list, but I can at least object to it. If I find my name supporting, say John McCain, as a recent pop group did, I can make my ire known and put mud in McCain's eye. > > On an even more serious note I believe many on this list are dead > and I find this rather sick. It includes my dear friend Bob > Cobbing. So we're not talking long dead but recently dead with a > widow and children. Poets with friends and family in living memory > are fair game? Maybe I should check out what they have attributed > to Bob - but I just can't do it because I know it's not him. The > very callousness of these inclusion of the dead show that the > people who did it don't give a fig about you, me or anyone - they > are using us all - it's a practical joke - hilarious? I don't > think so. If I was a widow and saw my darling husband in this list > I wouldn't be amused. The "sickness" here depends on your perception of it as a wicked thing to do. I suspect anyone I left behind would think I'd appreciate the gesture. Again, I'm thinking of Spicer and Lorca. Spicer assumed some affinity. > > Bob Cobbing used every artificial device available (he was the > first person I knew who got a computer type thingy - we tried > typing in poems into it and it keep saying 'fatal error' - we > laughed our socks off at this assessment of our writing but it got > a bit frustrating after a while). He/I loved and thrived off found > writings, cut and paste, stick it in the tumble dryer, leave it in > the sun, bung it in a shredder and see what comes out - brilliant > - we have to try and bump ourselves out of our own mindsets (or > into them before the word and world got to them). Computer > generate your own poems but don't give up your identity when it > pleases you otherwise you have to accept that it will be taken from > you when it doesn't. Yes? Given Cobbing's interests, does such a work and such a borrowing of his name amount to an homage? At least a little? > > > > Geraldine > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:52 PM > Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > >> I was talking to my mother about this the other day. She's 60 and >> was remarking at how little I cared about my name appearing on >> things like this anthology. My response is that my name has very >> little to do with me. It's a series of sounds and/or letters that >> is used to designate me, and that i use to identify things that >> i've written, but beyond that? it isn't much of anything. by >> publishing, which was a choice that I made, i put my name OUT >> THERE. and i think that part of the generational difference that >> you may be talking about here is a different conception of what >> OUT THERE means. the public space of the internet, and of >> discourse, is one where Identity has very little to do with one's >> name and much more to do with ones actions. this anthology, >> because it's clearly computer generated, and because the way the >> names were presented were en masse in a sort of storm of names is >> very different from the sort of thing i might object to, such as >> someone specifically using my name to endorse something i >> disagree with or using my bio to try to get crappy poems >> published. There is no action attributed to me in my name's >> inclusion in this thing. The only thing that my name being >> included in this says about me is that I have a minor public >> presence as a writer, which fact is the result of intentional >> action on my part. the project itself, as a commentary on the >> field and as a utilization of machine generated poetry, is worthy >> and as such I don't really see anything objectionable about it at >> all. what you're calling real privacy to me looks like something >> that is either illusory or an over strong definition. a rose is a >> rose is a rose, and no number of garbage poems about roses have >> ever diminished the rose from being a beautiful flower. just the >> same, a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush is a JF Quackenbush, >> and attributing a computer generated poem or poems to JF >> Quackenbush says nothing about me or my work. so why should it >> bother me? >> >> On Oct 7, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: >> >>>> I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one >>>> of your fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that >>>> anthology? >>>> >>>> -- Obododimma. >>>> >>> >>> I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely >>> surprised at the response from lots of poets here. Many of you >>> seem more than happy to have your names attached to something a >>> computer wrote. I just find this extremely weird. I can't >>> honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not disputing it >>> because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I >>> can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very >>> act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book >>> production which I find integral to heart of poetry. The rest >>> of it - putting your name to it, getting it 'out there' is just >>> the mechanics of transmission, and the mechanics of transmission >>> can be very rather tedious! >>> >>> I certainly accept that something like this could act as a >>> trigger for some poets to develop work from it but if the >>> satisfaction is merely to see your name on a poem you didn't >>> write then I'm totally mystified. >>> >>> Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification >>> because I was delighted when someone had gone to the effort to >>> find out I wasn't included. I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to >>> check it out myself and somewhat dreaded being there. My name is >>> who I am and I don't relinquish that lightly. >>> >>> Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real >>> shift (or even rift) in attitudes between younger and older >>> poets? Many of you will have been brought up with computer and >>> be totally at ease with the computer age with its impersonal and >>> intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my generation (I'm 56) were >>> brought up in a very very private word, without television >>> (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the >>> homes) telephones (public ones would be streets away if you >>> knew anyone who had a phone to ring! - everyone wrote letters) - >>> and of course no fridges, cars and all the other things we take >>> for granted. Apart from the radio which was the main source of >>> entertainment our known world was a small pocket of our >>> neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much >>> of it for the better but it has been at the cost of our >>> privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you >>> don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my generation know what >>> real privacy was so we have something to compare it to - and >>> that comparison can be alarming. >>> >>> Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the >>> 'anthology' but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our >>> attitudes towards this. Just a thought. >>> >>> Geraldine >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >> >> Jason Quackenbush >> jfq@myuw.net >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:13:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <001e01c92872$15bc3b10$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Up to now, the discussion of the anthology has focused on the quality of the poems and different people's reactions to having one's name attached to a piece they did not "write, " the delight and anger towards the process. I sympathize very much with those questioning the idea of "authorship," in Ron's words, "a brand" attached to that name. For years I firmly believed what Kent Johnson did with The Doubled Flowering and The Miseries of Poetry were profound activities. My own Eda Anthology of Turkish poetry resonates with a similar ambiguity about the nature authorship -though the Turkish poets in it are "real" persons. I also understand Barry's comment in a parallel thread about how a poem to which his name is attached by others can spur him to write other poems, again pointing to the porousness of poetic identity, how that can be a dynamic force. *But* this collection is also an anthology and in an anthology the issue of selection, and indirectly authority, are of primary importance. I see absolutely no analysis of, interest in this aspect of the project. When, in a previous post, I asked what was the algorithm which made the selection, in a way determining what name is visible and in that sense "real, I was pointing to that question. In a moment in our history when a completely obscure and unanalyzed series of programs -the creators of all those credit swaps, for example- will cause untold misery to potentially *b*illions of people, it is important to ask this question. Are we not similarly enamored of this mysterious "algorithmic edtor"? I believe there is a profound connection between our present economic/financial crisis -one can call the financial side the signifyer and the economic/main street side the signified- and this "fake anthology." For poets I believe this can be a great opportunity for poetry to emerge out of a coccoon -where poetry's place basically is in The United states, despite all its protestaions- and truly engage and merge with wider social issues. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > I envy you. I didn't appear, even once! Could you lend me one of your >> fictional selves, one of your invented selves, in that anthology? >> >> -- Obododimma. >> >> > I've been meaning to keep out of this but I've been genuinely surprised at > the response from lots of poets here. Many of you seem more than happy to > have your names attached to something a computer wrote. I just find this > extremely weird. I can't honestly see the satisfaction gained but I'm not > disputing it because obviously much satisfaction has been gained. But I > can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very act of > writing poetry that gives satisfaction - apart from book production which I > find integral to heart of poetry. The rest of it - putting your name to > it, getting it 'out there' is just the mechanics of transmission, and the > mechanics of transmission can be very rather tedious! > > I certainly accept that something like this could act as a trigger for some > poets to develop work from it but if the satisfaction is merely to see your > name on a poem you didn't write then I'm totally mystified. > > Why I saw Obododimma reply it intensified my mystification because I was > delighted when someone had gone to the effort to find out I wasn't included. > I couldn't get up the enthusiasm to check it out myself and somewhat dreaded > being there. My name is who I am and I don't relinquish that lightly. > > Anyway I might be wrong in this but could we be seeing a real shift (or > even rift) in attitudes between younger and older poets? Many of you will > have been brought up with computer and be totally at ease with the computer > age with its impersonal and intrusive ways. Whereas poets of my generation > (I'm 56) were brought up in a very very private word, without television > (although they were just about beginning to infiltrate the homes) telephones > (public ones would be streets away if you knew anyone who had a phone to > ring! - everyone wrote letters) - and of course no fridges, cars and all the > other things we take for granted. Apart from the radio which was the main > source of entertainment our known world was a small pocket of our > neighbourhood. The pace of change has been phenomenal and much of it for > the better but it has been at the cost of our privacy. In a way it's a > matter of what you don't know you don't miss. I think a lot of poets of my > generation know what real privacy was so we have something to compare it to > - and that comparison can be alarming. > > Obviously I can't check out my 'age theory' in relation to the 'anthology' > but I wonder if this is a salient factor in all our attitudes towards this. > Just a thought. > > Geraldine > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:09:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: poets RON SILLIMAN, MAGDALENA ZURAWSKI, PAM BROWN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline poets RON SILLIMAN, MAGDALENA ZURAWSKI, PAM BROWN DO NOT MISS THIS READING! LIVE webcast at http://robinsbookstore.com ALL DETAILS AND LINKS FOR THIS EVENT AT http://CAConradEVENTS.blogspot.com ROBIN'S BOOKSTORE 108 S. 13th St., Philadelphia Sunday, October 19th, 4pm *Ron Silliman's* long awaited collection THE ALPHABET will be available for sale and for signing. He is the author or editor of twenty-six books of poetry or criticism, among them *The Age of Huts (compleat), Tjanting, ABC, Demo to Ink, Paradise, (R), What, Woundwood,* and the memoir *Under Albany*. He edited the landmark poetry anthology *In the American Tree*, and he has received a Pew Fellowship in the Arts, two Fellowships from the National Endowment of the Arts, and three arts commission grants from the state arts councils of California and Pennsylvania. His widely read *Silliman's Blog*, a daily journal devoted to contemporary poetry and poetics, has become a major force in online literary criticism. His blog is * http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/* *Magdalena Zurawski* was born in Newark, NJ in 1972 to Polish immigrants. Her work has been published in *American Poet: The Journal of the Academy of American Poets, The Poetry Project Newsletter, Rattapallax, Talisman,* and other magazines. She lives in North Carolina where she is working on her PhD at Duke University. *The Bruise* is her first novel and won the Ronald Sukenik Innovative Fiction Prize. Her blog is http://minoramerican.blogspot.com/ *Pam Brown* lives in Australia and is co-editor of JACKET Magazine. She has published many books and chapbooks including *Text thing* (Little Esther Books, 2002) and *Dear Deliria* (Salt Publishing, 2003) which was awarded the New South Wales Premier's Prize for Poetry in 2004. She* *collaborated with Seattle-based Egyptian poet Maged Zaher on a collection of poems called *farout library software* (Tinfish Press, 2007). Her most recent book, True Thoughts, was published by Sal Publishing in September 2008. Her next collection, *Authentic Local,* is forthcoming from Papertiger Media in 2009. She is the associate editor of *Jacket* magazine. She keeps a blog - http://thedeletions.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:14:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Re: one of my favorite people on the current economic crisis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >>As she is a Canadian, Naomi Klein cannot run for US president. A >>stupid person from Alaska can, though. George, I had no idea Naomi Klein is Canadian. Well, the whole world is lucky to have her as no one has a keener sense of how we got ourselves into the mess we're in. Her way of placing the crisis into large but accessible frames of economic theory is invaluable! CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:34:24 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have finally been able to read the poem attached to my name in this antho= logy and it definitely is nothing I ever wrote.=A0 One of the posts about t= his production I read said the lines and phrases come from Emily Dickinson = and Joseph Conrad.=A0 My guess is that the short "poem" attributed to me ma= y be a line from one of Dickinson's poems although I have no idea which one= .=A0 It is distressing and sad that the Poetry Foundation has sponsored thi= s strange Blog of unreal poems attributed to real poets.=A0 Has anyone prot= ested this curious=A0 example of identity theft (I don't know what else to = call it) to its source or enabler, the Foundation itself?=A0 Would a group = effort help to get them to take it down?=A0 Regards, Tom Savage --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 6:46 PM Jim, just a quibble: I would say that any perceived similarities between our work and our "work" were likely to be coincidences rather than mistakes (but hey, who knows, I could make those I saw portals of discovery). Full disclosure: I wholeheartedly believe in the pursuit of significant coincidences and the search for synchronicity. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net On 10/7/08, Jim Andrews wrote: > > If I understand correctly, there is 0% correlation between the poets and > 'their poems'. Although several poets wrote in to the Poetics list noting > some perceived correlation between their own work and what appeared under > their name in the 'anthology'. I think they were mistaken, actually. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:52:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Subject: Chicago Calling at the Velvet Lounge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are invited to attend this special Chicago Calling performance happening at the Velvet Lounge -- Thursday, October 9, 8:30 p.m. 1st set: Fred Anderson -- tenor saxophone Eric Glick Rieman -- prepared Rhodes electric piano Josh Abrams -- upright bass Tim Daisy -- drums 2nd set: Ed Roberson -- poetry performing with musicians 3rd set: Fred Anderson, Eric Glick Rieman, Joshua Abrams, & Tim Daisy $10 admission The Velvet Lounge 67 E. Cermak Road Chicago, Illinois 60616 phone number: 312.791.9050 www.velvetlounge.net www.chicagocalling.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: New from Xexoxial: Drop Caps by K.S. Ernst Comments: To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com, BRITISH-IRISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, fluxlist@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Drop Caps by K.S. Ernst 2008, 5" x 8", 62 pgs, color, $15. Add $4 for postage. ISBN 1-438279-68-X | EAN-13 978-1-43827968-8 http://xexoxial.org/is/drop_caps/by/ks_ernst Paypal to perspicacity@xexoxial.org K.S. Ernst's Drop Caps is an alphabet book, a Pandora's box of verbo-=20 visual treasures, a crate of sculptures, a litany of of the textual =20 imagination, and a pure delight for the eye. Combining the eye of a =20 painter, the ear of a poet, and the hand of a typographer, Ernst =20 examines the power of text through color, cancellation, eradication, =20 shape, torquing, humor, pathos, and a dry sense of humor and =20 seriousness that surprise on every page. Beginning as an alphabet book =20= that swerves from frame to frame with visual legerdemain and grace, =20 the book ends with a flickering set of even greater experimentations, =20= each of which on every page are haunted by individual capital letters =20= of the alphabet, often askew, the dropped capitals that give the book =20= its name. =97Geof Huth It's always a pleasure to write about K.S. Ernst, allowing me an =20 opportunity to try to spread the good news of new publications and to =20= further contextualize her in the frames of her own opus and of the =20 arts of our time. Writing about publications in editions is =20 particularly important in her case, since most of her oeuvre is one-of-=20= a-kind works of art. Still, I've had the opportunity to write about =20 her in her Web Survey (http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/ernst/=20 ernst.htm) and in an extended essay on her and her closest =20 collaborators, Marilyn R. Rosenberg and David Cole in Correspondence =20 Art Solos and Choruses (http://www.bigbridge.org/young/so-ch.htm). =20 Drop Caps, gives the reader a better sense of her abilities to work in =20= multiple dimensions than those editions which have come before. =20 Dimensions in this case include reproductions of bas relief sculpture =20= that come as close as an affordable book can manage to demonstrating =20 her work with three dimensional pages. The text itself may be the =20 fullest published to date. Here, phantom narratives nest conundrums in =20= their coyly side-stepping and evasive sentences, in turn nested inside =20= questions with multiple answers=97and answers to multiple questions. =20 These stories in turn find themselves graphically placed inside =20 layered explorations of the shapes and potential functions of letters =20= in a delightful play of dancing wit and in-depth exploration of signs =20= we take for granted. How much can the intrusion of the upper serif and =20= middle bar of the letter G fill in the spectral tones and messages of =20= ungrateful ghosts whispering above obscured candles? It may be =20 surprising how much particularly for those too familiar with now =20 predictable genres ranging from popular fiction to the latest in =20 deconstructionist theory to the rigidity of the Concrete Poetry of =20 half a century ago. In previous comments, I've called Ernst the Mozart =20= of current visual poetry. If my comments here suggest a forbiddingly =20 difficult work, that's just a reflection of my problems in summing up =20= the book in a brief space. As in the early through middle Mozart, =20 Ernst has an uncanny ability to make the most complex ideas clear, =20 free of pretension or obfuscation, and not only easy but fun to follow. =97Karl Young For inventive elegance, few visual poets in any language now can equal =20= K. S. Ernst. =09 =97Richard Kostelanetz The visio-textual art of K.S. Ernst lifts poetry to its rightful three-=20= dimensional habitat where it comes alive: viewable, palpable, =20 performative. This essential, generative synthesis of mind and heart =20 creates experience, immediately memorable. Raw truth spawns multiple =20 probable realities. Works by K.S. Ernst should be seen widely, studied =20= intently, and savored by discerning viewers for whom art equals =20 infinity. The text of Drop Caps, generous, insightful, and framed by =20 its source letters, encompasses mind in matter. Anchored by coherence =20= of the alphabet, this book characterizes what is best in contemporary =20= visio-textual art. Drop Caps is a must-have for every library seeking =20= to encompass what is most dynamic in 21st Century art. =97Sheila E. Murphy Just when I thought everything anybody could do with the alphabet had =20= now been done, K.S. Ernst finds ten million new ways to use it (while =20= doing a lot of other good stuff, too=97some of it Very Funny)! =97Bob Grumman Much more than just an ABC, this alphabet-structured book explores the =20= possible complete randomness (therefore a kind of order) of our ways =20 of arranging language, and thus of consciousness itself. Each letter =20= is approached from numerous perspectives and is shown to be at the =20 center of a swarm of text, structure, form, color, dimensionality, =20 emotion, idea, and many other manifestations of what is. An =20 impressive and beautiful work. =97John M. Bennett, Luna Bisonte Prods Also check out the new 25th anniversary edition of SEQUENCING by K.S. =20= Ernst. 21 previously unpublished pieces added. A certified Xexoxial =20 classic! http://xexoxial.org/is/sequencing/by/ks_ernst XEXOXIAL EDITIONS 10375 Cty Hway Alphabet La Farge WI 54639 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:51:14 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tom Orange Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline geraldine, sharon, et al.: i like j.p. craig's initial taxonomy of responses to the anthology project, to which i add my own take here: i see the gesture of distributing/attributing the computer's labor over/to a large community of poets as a reminder of broad custody (as opposed to ownership) we all have for the language. my satisfaction or delight comes from seeing words combined in new ways, in large part without regard for whose name is or isn't on it. those who are impressed by the high quality of many of the anthology's poems will be further surprised to begin working through, as i have, the fruits of jim carpenter's electronic text composition project http://www.slought.org/content/11227/ and find the quality appears pretty consistently high. i take this less as an effront to than a furtherance of poetry's humanist underpinings (the input and the algorithm and the hardware are after all human, it's only the processing speed that is super-human) and a clarion call to flesh-and-blood poets to step up our game... tom orange p.s. re "generational" -- my nephews (ages 7 and 11) already express no preference for reading printed pages over computer screens as do many of us older folk... ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:21:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Deborah Poe Subject: event: santa fe new mexico (you know how i feel) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline You Know How I Feel, Opening Reception October 10th (exhibit through Octobe= r 26th) Mu=F1oz Waxman Gallery (http://www.ccasantafe.org/visualarts_MWgallery.htm) Santa Fe, New Mexico ** I will have a piece there (poem with mixed media components) as guest artist. I hope you can make it to the exhibit if you are in the Santa Fe area. Best, Deborah Poe =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding by Right will win it, make mainstream news MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PBS has an online=20 poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified. Apparently the right wing=20 knew about this in advance and are flooding the voting with YES=20 votes. The poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream=20 media. It can influence undecided voters in swing states. Please do=20 two things -- takes 20 seconds. 1) Click on link and vote=20 yourself. Here's the=20 link: http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-435.html=20 2) Then send=20 this to every single Obama-Biden voter you know=2C and urge them to vote and=20 pass it on. The last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think=20 Sarah Palin is qualified. _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows= Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:51:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicholas Piombino Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <011201c928de$635586d0$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would just call it-The Unbearable Lightness of Issue #1. For days I've been coming back to posts about the faux anthology and trying to write a response. Geraldine Monk and Sharon Mesmer added perceptive things to think about and some of it connects to the aspect that I was focused on yesterday that had to do with the loss of something, maybe privacy, but that word does not get the whole thing I've been feeling today, a day later. In a way, I feel like this is the kind of note I should write drunk. As I've said publicly and privately many times, it was in the wake of 9/11 that I began to truly value and appreciate the opportunities for ongoing and immediate community with poets made available on this list. After the satisfactions and challenges of that experience, I began blogging, and have found great value in that as well. But, as with every expansion, there is a price to be paid. While I also very much miss the privacy Geraldine Monk is writing about so vividly and sensitively, I very well realize it is rapidly becoming a relic of the past like a tune you can tap your foot to but not quite remember the words of or the old mood completely. But there is something about that huge sudden ironic parody that calls for instant recognition of the non serious nature of the intervention. This is the "unbearable lightness of blogging" as I once termed it, par excellence. A poetry circus wagon blows in, warm wind and ill wind, spins a few sails, shakes a few tails and blows out: a party with real laughs, a few growls and roars and some intense conversations where you recognize a lot of people, don't know some, you figure "everybody" was there, but of course that's not literally possible. The feeling is, maybe they were out of town or something, or just couldn't make it, but not that they were deliberately excluded. I know I would have felt left out had I not been mentioned. But since I was I do get into that lightness, but it is a blue lightness while still feeling nostalgic for the more private days of the whole long stretched out thing- getting an invitation, figuring what to send, waiting to hear, then getting accepted. But in this party atmosphere it's just all so quickly thrown together, no time, so quickly check how my poem was dressed and acted, ok, did I see some friends, yeah, their poems are ok. So then it's over, and there's the hangover of- what did I do, did I actually write that thing, no way, nobody did, a computer wrote it. After all, it is the era of the machine. So what did I say- I'm not sure how I feel now. Then the party really starts and everyone talks about it for days. No, not like a reading or an opening, more like a bash, or an old fashioned happening where people were only half aware of what was going on. Maybe all the evidence has already been put away and the place has been swept up. Maybe a few people actually kept their party favors and others left and forgot them. But now there's a memory, that Godot thing that gets talked about. People have been saying that we are in a time warp in that in New York now, that we are in a repeat of the Weimar era. Maybe this Godot thing is our cabaret- rude, crude, risque, funny, a little dark, with music by Kurt Weill and a set by Kirchner, Grosz or Hannah Hoch. I had even written in the comment section of Issue 1, "There has been talk of a poetry bailout. Is this it?" It looks like the powers that be are plotting to send the whole batch of us poets and day workers out onto the streets as in *The Threepenny Opera* while "citibank" robs everybody blind. And then we'll listen to the barrel organ sound, in the city while the sun sinks low. Nick On 10/7/08 8:39 PM, "Geraldine Monk" wrote: > The pace of change has been >>> phenomenal and much of it for the better but it has been at the cost of >>> our privacy. In a way it's a matter of what you don't know you don't >>> miss. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:27:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shit i'm not even real enough to be part of this fake anthology really hurt On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:37:43 +0800 Jason Quackenbush writes: > 3 times, actually. I think it's because JF J.F. and J F looked like > > different names to the cleaning algorithm. still i'll take the top > > representation. i think i'm the only 3peat in there. > On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > > > You are there twice. It must be the fabulous last name! > > > > > > > > > > On 10/6/08, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> > >> there are several friends of mine who are lit bloggers that > aren't > >> poets > >> and aren't on silliman's blog roll who are also in the > anthology. > >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, colin herd wrote: > >> > >> The list of names HAS in part to be from silliman's blog roll > >> since i am on > >>> that, i am in Issue 1, but have never had any other poetry > >>> published. > >>> (which > >>> is a little funny i guess but pointless)... which means it's a > > >>> lazy way of > >>> doing it. why should i be in it?... > >>> > >>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Dillon Westbrook > >>> >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty > >>> obvious to me > >>>> that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro > (i.e. > >>>> the > >>>> 3,785 > >>>> 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, > > >>>> on this > >>>> list > >>>> and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems > of > >>>> dubious > >>>> authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been > > >>>> hacked in > >>>> the recent past. > >>>> > >>>> signed, > >>>> Dillon Westbrook > >>>> (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ > >>>>>> > >>>>> 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. > >>>>> > >>>>> jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he > is/was > >>>>> writing > >>>>> that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that > he > >>>>> was > >>>>> primarily interested in trying to get the program to write > >>>>> 'original', > >>>>> interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were > > >>>>> 'based' on > >>>>> other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms > > >>>>> produced > >>>>> work > >>>>> that could include as much or apparently as little of the > >>>>> originals as > >>>>> one > >>>>> liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' > >>>>> resemble the > >>>>> 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. > >>>>> > >>>>> the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious > relation to > >>>>> anything i've written. > >>>>> > >>>>> if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such > > >>>>> that you > >>>>> could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new > one > >>>>> 'based > >>>>> on' what you fed it. > >>>>> > >>>>> the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is > a > >>>>> professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these > > >>>>> sorts of > >>>>> projects. > >>>>> > >>>>> sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. > >>>>> > >>>>> i expect jim is the brains behind this project. > >>>>> > >>>>> ja > >>>>> http://vispo.com > >>>>> > >>>>> ================================== > >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >>>>> welcome.html > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> ================================== > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>> guidelines > >>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>> ================================== > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >>> welcome.html > >>> > >> > >> Jason Quackenbush > >> jfq@myuw.net > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Tracey M. Gagne > > > > sundrypleasures.blogspot.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:47:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: EXcited by the Math In-Reply-To: <262813.47011.qm@web52405.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline From what I've seen, I would argue that many of the barbarisms committed in the name of socialism were committed because people forgot that no collective good exists without the good of the individuals who make up that collective. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 6:06 PM, steve russell wrote: > much that has been done in the name of socialism is barbaric. Orwell > longed for a humane brand of Socialism. & much of Europe, not the > East, seems to be moving in that direction. The 2 party system in the States > is morally and intellectually broke. > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:45:03 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline JF/Jason/whoever you are-- So does that mean my name is mine if the only other one I can find with first and last identical is dead (and the only thing on her is an obit)? Or does that mean that with my middle name included, it's definitely my name since I'm the only one who comes up under it? Hurrah for given and family names with mismatched ethnic identities then! (I prefer, too, to be referred to in publication with my middle name included not for this reason of uniqueness but for the related goal of ensuring that my initials are different from those of my brother, my late father, and his late father.) Really, my primary thought about the anthology was that it was boring. A big mass of dull, dull poetry sometimes mediocre and sometimes dreck; I'd really rather have godawful poetry that mediocre work associated with the name that perhaps by the wonders of idiosyncrasy I could be said to possess. The outrage responses, however, are hilarious! Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rachel Raymond Subject: Publication of Interest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Poetics List Memembers=2C =20 Here is an upcoming publication that may be of interetst to you: =20 The Department of English at Indiana University of Pennsylvania is pleased = to announce the upcoming Studies in the Humanities December 2008 Special Is= sue on modernist artists as public intellectuals with guest editor Dr. Bern= ard Schweizer=2C Long Island University. This Special Issue explores the w= orks of artist-intellectuals from across many cultures such as: G=FCnther = Grass=2C Ayn Rand=2C Octavio Paz=2C Rabindranath Tagore=2C Toni Morrison=2C= H.D.=2CGeorge Orwell=2C Storm Jameson=2C Virginia Woolf=2C and Vera Britta= in. These modernist artists strove to push the boundaries of the tradition= al cultural standards to empower others to critique=2C create=2C and improv= e upon the new economic=2C social and political conditions of the emerging = industrialized culture. This journal edition strives to bring new perspec= tives on the modernist descriptions of the reforming movements in politics= =2C art=2C music=2C and literature=2C as well as=2C the artists=92 roles in= the history of the modernist movement. =20 Studies in the Humanities is a multi-disciplinary journal of theoretical in= vestigations in literature=2C film=2C drama=2C and cultural studies. Emai= l inquiries and subscription requests may be sent to Dr. Thomas Slater at t= slater@iup.edu. =20 =20 Best=2C R. Raymond =20 _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows= Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:32:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Danny Snelson Subject: Radio Poetics / / Friday Oct 17 -- 8pm @ Ontological Theater Comments: To: "j.henry chunko" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Lists & Friends, Spreading word for an upcoming *Radio Poetics * event at the Ontological Hysteric -- I'll be performing a sound poem called "Testimony" with live processing by *Phoebe Springstubb*. Performances also from Ether theorist *Joe Milutis,* Radical cartographer*Alexis Bhagat * & Ceptuetics host *Kareem Estefan*. (see linkedflyer) The evening is hosted by *free103point9 * and the *Ontological-Hysteric Theater * a Friday from now, the 17th of October at 8pm (10th & 2nd) as part of a three-day *Radio Festival *-- come see bent circuits: the meeting of Radio Poetics with Radiophonic Poetry. To those at distance: tune in! Live video streams on* Friday the 17th 8pm EST* @ this link . o(^_^o) (o^_^)o Danny .. . *Others there are that have no composition at all but a kind of tuning and rhyming fall in what they write. It runs and slides, and only makes a sound. * [ Ben Johnson's Introduction to Sound Poetry: A Catalogue (Toronto, 1978) ] The trouble with comparing a poet with a radio is that radios don't develop scar-tissue. The tubes burn out, or with a transistor, which most souls are, the battery or diagram burns out replaceable or not replaceable, but not like that punchdrunk fighter in a bar. The poet Takes too many messages. The right to the ear that floored him in New Jersey. The right to say that he stood six rounds with a champion. ... The poet is a radio. The poet is a liar. The poet is a counterpunching radio. And those messages (God would not damn them) do not even know they are champions. [ Jack Spicer (from 'Sporting Life' from *Language*) ] ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:35:15 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops. Pardon me. This was meant to be private. So apologies about the tone. Not saying anything in it that I haven't already said but it's all in a more flippant and jokey tone. I don't of course despair of this anymore than I'm in a constant state of despair about everything - better than being bored. Bring back melodrama. Cheers and hopefully no offence caused. Geraldine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geraldine Monk" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 2:07 AM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > Dear Sharon, > Thanks so much for your reply. I honestly don't understand their > satisfaction with being given a poem - it's not the same as a found poem > you find yourself - its all done and dusted with no input from them > whatsoever except the frisson of seeing their name - and then they have > the 'hilarity' to argue that their name doesn't matter. Are they are > reading everyone else's fake poems! They just don't seem to see the > contradiction - nor the paucity of it. Hilarious! Bloody hell. I > despair. I think the lesser known are most thrilled so maybe we shouldn't > be to harsh on them but catch my next letter to Jason where I outline some > more of my other concerns. > > London 86! Was that at Young Vic Theatre on The Cut? I think I also read > at the Festival Hall. 20 years ago! Oh no. 22 years ago. Not water > but torrents under the bridge. How lovely that you were there. > > Take care, > > And best wishes, > > Geraldine > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 4:02 PM > Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > >> Geraldine, >> >> I write to you as a huge fan of your work -- I first saw you read in >> London in '86, in connection (I think, if memory serves) with >> MHorovitz's Grandchildren of Albion anthology -- and with no disrespect >> whatsoever. In your post, you wrote: >> >>> But I can't get to the nub of why this should be because it's the very >>> act of writing poetry that gives satisfaction >> >> Indeed. So much so that having a little hoax poem (or two or three) >> with one's name on it included among over 3,000 other little hoax poems >> could/should never detract from that. There's no real satisfaction to >> be gained from seeing one's name on a poem one didn't write (sometimes >> there's no satisfaction from seeing one's name on a poem one did >> write!). There's a giggle, yeah, at the joke -- that the poems are so >> obviously not the work of the many, many poets whose names are affixed >> to them -- but a giggle's not satisfaction. Okay, sometimes it can be, >> but I think not in this case. >> >> The anthology has certainly revealed a lot of very interesting attitudes >> (about, for one thing, litigation) among certain poets, and maybe that's >> its "value." But what you wrote here is the most cogent thing, in my >> opinion, anyone's said about it: >> >>> could we be seeing a real shift (or even rift) in attitudes between >>> younger and older poets? Many of you will have been brought up with >>> computer and be totally at ease with the computer age with its >>> impersonal and intrusive ways. >> >> There has definitely been a shift in the way I configure time in my own >> brain, and the presence of a computer has contributed to that. I KNOW >> that the computer, as a kind of outside-the-body brain, has changed >> poetry. In my own life it is intrusive, but at the same time an >> interesting tool -- and there's the slippery slope. And if we slip, do >> we cling onto something, or let go and see where we land? Either way, >> it might hurt. >> >> x, Sharon Mesmer >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:44:14 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <014c01c928e4$c168dfa0$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Geraldine, I saw you at Young Vic on an afternoon AND Festival Hall the next evening (I think)! Young Vic was also my intro to the work of Elizabeth Smart, who had just died -- before the Young Vic performance a tape of her reading from "By Grand Central Station ... " was playing. WOW. I chased that book down when I got back to the States (couldn't afford it when I was living/travelling abroad) and now I teach it in an MFA seminar on book-length prose poems at the New School. (Oh --during my residency at Hawthornden Castle in Scotland I was in a room that Sebastian Barker had previously occupied the month before!). > I honestly don't understand their satisfaction with being given a > poem - it's not the same as a found poem you find yourself - its > all done and dusted with no input from them whatsoever except the > frisson of seeing their name I wouldn't say there's the kind of "satisfaction" you get from your own work. And I must say I was a little disappointed that the poems themselves were not, in fact, hilarious. Or even dirty. If you're going to offend, at least have the decency to be obscene. x, Sharon p.s. After I wrote you yesterday I re-read "Spreading the Cards" and "Tiger Lillies" -- absolutely wonderful. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:43:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <823999.78926.qm@web52410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Not sure we've been over this point yet, but here goes: If the free market is "open," what does that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free for what? Burdens and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it? I would rather it be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or, better, Amok. On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell wrote: > Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & > Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most people > wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't > mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well enough, > ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement > favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is ok > in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't people > get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's > done wonders for the enviroment. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is > nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you > otherwise was lying to you. > > Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. > Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing > in it is. > Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of > economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. > > My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it > excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of > poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that > we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural > state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. > Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, > allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Troy, > > You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not > believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you > been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the > credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your > "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the > root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino > in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. > > As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we > should tolerate it because it has existed before. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or > the > > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism > behaved > > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological > at > > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like > free > > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts > in > > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world > is > > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people > than > > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven > everywhere > > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > > decline), the US and Australia. > > > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > > our own backyard. > > > > A > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth > is > > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask > instead > > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. > Historically > > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness > of > > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the > freest > > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong > central > > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the > U.S.S.R. > > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do > is > > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > > world. > > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more > harm > > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps > poor > > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Alison Croggon > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > > everyone. > > > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > > > A > > > -- > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:10:20 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one of my fave net art pieces (unfort it isn't online anymore) was such that you'd type your name into it, whereupon it would generate about 25 pages on you as a profile. it would do a search on your name (or whomever's name you typed in) and assemble pictures and text based on that information. and the texts would key on sentences/paragraphs culled from the net including your name. 'jim andrews' is a common name. there is another poet named jim andrews. there's a porn star named jim andrews. a sports surgeon. a sherrif. and on and on. so the portrait of 'jim andrews' is quite extensive, and it involves elements of all these people. certainly the act of using the internet's vast data is fraught with moral peril. no question. but, also, it really is tantalizing, as an artist. i use google+yahoo image search in dbCinema. because you can type something in and get 5000 related images. how sweet is that? o mi gawd. but then what? what are you going to do with them? the art is not simply in enabling a google search but in what is done with it. and, in my opinion, using web services to tap the social scope of the search term is just so compelling as something for artists to investigate. of course, that doesn't give anyone permission to act unethically. i didn't have a problem with steve and jim's project. as jason pointed out, there are plenty of clues that the 'authors' aren't the real authors. and it's amusing for those in it to see what they 'wrote'. as steve pointed out, very like looking at a horoscope and seeing relation with one's life. also, i admire jim carpenter's poetry generation software. that's hard stuff to create and he's maybe the best at it. and steve has done a remarkable job getting it out there, in the concept, in the framing. rest assured that what we are seeing now is the tip of the iceberg concerning artists using the vast resources of the internet to create new work. if steve and jim's project scared you, hold on to your hat. the moral issues that arise have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:39:13 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Neither Bush has been a friend of free markets. The first one termed free market economics "voodoo economics." So don't give me that nonsense. You are right, though, that every economy is mixed. However, those that are freest produce the most wealth and benefit the poor the most. That motto, by the way, belongs not to any free market economy, but to the soviet bloc, and had in fact that result. It's Leftist materialists who think everything it economic, not those of us who support free markets. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: steve russell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:27:51 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most people wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well enough, ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is ok in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't people get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's done wonders for the enviroment. ----- Original Message ---- From: Troy Camplin To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you otherwise was lying to you. Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Troy, You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we should tolerate it because it has existed before. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > decline), the US and Australia. > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > our own backyard. > > A > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > world. > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > everyone. > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > A > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:41:24 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXcited by the Math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I certainly agree with the first and last sentences. There's practically no difference between the Dems and Reps. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: steve russell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:06:46 PM Subject: Re: EXcited by the Math much that has been done in the name of socialism is barbaric. Orwell longed for a humane brand of Socialism. & much of Europe, not the East, seems to be moving in that direction. The 2 party system in the States is morally and intellectually broke. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:43:33 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: one of my favorite people on the current economic crisis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I have found that USAmericans often think that prominent Canadians are USAmericans. But we Canadians are used to it and do enjoy setting the record right. A wonderful moment in Buenos Aires last winter (summer) when we saw copies of her book absolutely filling the window of the biggest bookstore in town. On Oct 8, 2008, at 8:14 AM, CA Conrad wrote: >>> As she is a Canadian, Naomi Klein cannot run for US president. A >>> stupid person from Alaska can, though. > > George, I had no idea Naomi Klein is Canadian. Well, the whole > world is > lucky to have her as no one has a keener sense of how we got > ourselves into > the mess we're in. Her way of placing the crisis into large but > accessible > frames of economic theory is invaluable! > > CAConrad > http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Howard Bowering Born with a zinc spoon. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:55:00 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In an open system, you necessarily have to have energy coming into and exiting from the system. As the occurs, internal order is created -- an order that lies on the borderline of order and chaos, also known as creative destruction. In other words, it is a self-organizing system. It is liberals who want us to be free of burdens and choices. Freedom does not mean that, as it cannot be separated from responsibility. Freedom does not mean anarchy, but rather the implementation of the best rules to make the system creative. Note that I said "rules" and not "laws," as the former are flexible and can be bent, but the latter are inflexible and cannot be broken. Thus, the market is not orderless, but rather is a spontaneous order, ordered by no one person or group of people, but emergent from the activities of everyone. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ryan Daley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:43:30 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Not sure we've been over this point yet, but here goes: If the free market is "open," what does that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free for what? Burdens and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it? I would rather it be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or, better, Amok. On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell wrote: > Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & > Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most people > wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't > mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well enough, > ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement > favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is ok > in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't people > get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's > done wonders for the enviroment. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is > nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you > otherwise was lying to you. > > Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. > Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing > in it is. > Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of > economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. > > My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it > excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of > poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that > we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural > state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. > Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, > allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Troy, > > You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not > believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you > been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the > credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your > "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the > root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino > in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. > > As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we > should tolerate it because it has existed before. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or > the > > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism > behaved > > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological > at > > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like > free > > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts > in > > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world > is > > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people > than > > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven > everywhere > > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > > decline), the US and Australia. > > > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > > our own backyard. > > > > A > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth > is > > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask > instead > > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. > Historically > > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness > of > > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the > freest > > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong > central > > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the > U.S.S.R. > > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do > is > > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > > world. > > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more > harm > > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps > poor > > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Alison Croggon > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > > everyone. > > > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > > > A > > > -- > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:56:04 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think my point, as my thinking develops on this, is that perhaps there is a sense in which our names are not ours at all. rather they belong to the community as signifiers of us, but that use doesn't limit them from being used in other ways. names are perhaps the most public of language. wittgenstein would suggest that a use of a name is meaningful if there are public criteria by which the particular use can be determined to be used correctly or not. i'm inlcined to agree with that sort of thinking, and as such think that the correct reading of this is that these names are used en masse in a group of writer's names. it is clear from the content that none of the writers listed actually wrote this stuff. so i'm inclined to think that the meaning in this is that this is a list of writers, here are some poets they didn't write, and as such this is a use of a name that is very different from the normal sorts of uses that we think of for names, such as signing work, hailing someone, or specifying a specific person. the interesting thing here then is to ask whether the use of your or my or geraldine monk's or shakespeare's name is meaningful at all. i think it is, and am inclined to read it in the way that nick piombino mentioned and that silliman hinted at in his blog post about the topic. that is, these things function as a signifier of our communal stewardship of the language as writers, even those on the list who aren't poets, and further that there is something here in the questioning of authorship in the age of authorial identity through textual communication the likes of whcih so much of our socialization revolves around. as such it as value and meaning and is a good thing. or maybe i really ought to go back to a one fall cage match and shut the hell up. -J On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > JF/Jason/whoever you are-- So does that mean my name is mine if the > only > other one I can find with first and last identical is dead (and the > only > thing on her is an obit)? Or does that mean that with my middle name > included, it's definitely my name since I'm the only one who comes > up under > it? Hurrah for given and family names with mismatched ethnic > identities > then! (I prefer, too, to be referred to in publication with my > middle name > included not for this reason of uniqueness but for the related goal of > ensuring that my initials are different from those of my brother, > my late > father, and his late father.) > > Really, my primary thought about the anthology was that it was > boring. A big > mass of dull, dull poetry sometimes mediocre and sometimes dreck; > I'd really > rather have godawful poetry that mediocre work associated with the > name that > perhaps by the wonders of idiosyncrasy I could be said to possess. The > outrage responses, however, are hilarious! > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:02:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I'm surprised at this. For one thing I'm never sure what "the writers of this work" means, especially when online work is considered. Second, if 'real people's' names weren't used, the anthology would lose its axis; it's about, among other things, poetics and the 'poetry world,' such as it is - not an attempt to create a fictitous school of writing. Third I'm not sure about the 'essential nature of the writtenness of computer programs' - why this is essential. And it doesn't spout post-human or other theory - you're making the connection - one might just as easily see it as the last gauge of romanticism. Why on earth a 'test'? If I write something, say this, is this also a 'test'? Is it a 'test' if you can't locate intentionality in the - what? word choice, method of composition, thing itself? Does the writer read his work? Do all writers read their work? Does Kenneth Goldsmith? I've known writers who don't in fact; I think we all must. How does he know it's poetry? Is there a test about what's poetry and not? What's bad poetry and not? I think harvesting names is wonderful, and a text which (you say) is one substance is fascinating and raises a lot of interesting questions about aesthetics, Kant, sublime of course, etc. What bothers me on this list most of all is that I think what was produced was and is amazing, brilliant, and I worry that the authors etc. will back-track. I wish I had done it. And it's raised as much discussion if not more than Yasusada did, or is that another bad person thing? - Alan, confused On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Catherine Daly wrote: > 1) I view the writer of the algorythm, program, whatever, as well as the > writers of any source material (but there doesn't seem to be any? ???) to be > the writers of this work (except if placing it in .pdf format involved > indents, for example); when I decided this, I started having very much more > of a problem with the use of names of people who did not write the program > with the results. It disguises the essential nature of the writtenness of > computer programs, deliberately, and seems to align with posthuman theory I > disagree with. It disguises the fact that the writing is "results" or > "output" -- of, I may point out, a "test." Is the test of the system the > real thing? Is the system completed? I don't know. What was the test bed? > Can you feed this back in and get a different anthology? > > It also raises another question, which is, > > 2) has the writer read the work? He has called the results poetry, but has > he read it? How does he know? > > His reading would make it more "his" -- his response: to publish it not > under his name. Making Anne's reading of the poem ascribed to her, finding > in it poetry, a second reading, not a first one. The first "reading" > unfortunately cannot be the machines, because um, they can't read. They can > scan. (How was the text fed in? Or not -- just trawled? Any intervention > of any type? Programmed intervention? Human intervention not via > programming? Any humans read anything? Tweak the code during output?) > > 3) Also, my piece is really terrible. It is just awful. At first, I was > objecting to the program, since it was producing dreck. Then I thought, > maybe something about poetry and aesthetics. Now I think: what a miserably > aimed, sloppily controlled, misanthropic project. What was it devised to > do? Why is that design or intention important, inherent, significant, or > not? (for example, it is a design through and through?) Why did the writer > insert or collate harvested names -- many of whom have very specific ideas > and various ideas -- into a text that was "one substance"? That they were > (mostly) poets from lists were postings about readings, publications, etc., > has replaced discussion? > > 4) post-identity = posthuman? > > All best, > Catherine Daly > not the author of ALL SHOOK UP > > >> >> If you're getting at what my position is on all this, well, I lean toward >> thinking we should see this thing as a work of art rather than an attempt to >> steal someone's identity. I think it's just as clear here as it was in After >> Lorca that we're not seeing real toads in an imaginary garden. That is to >> say, this is not a pipe, and you can smoke it in a nonsmoking area. >> >> >> >> -- >> All best, >> Catherine Daly >> c.a.b.daly@gmail.com >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:18:38 -0700 Reply-To: Elisa Gabbert Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elisa Gabbert Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >It isn't even a good sham in as >much as I doubt there is a public readership out there who would >believe in it. Too much exposure has happened for that to be achieved. That is the point, of course. That there is no "public readership" other than us (those whose names are in the anthology). The joke is on us and for us, no one else. That's what makes it funny. ________________________________ From: andrew burke To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 7:20:37 PM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) Hmm, I was surprised to find my name there. A friend told me I was there, so I checked. My 'fame' gland was momentarily excited - but then I read the poem. My 'shame' gland leapt into life. Awful; no redeeming features at all. I was disappointed in them portraying me like that. What if somebody should even half-way believe it was mine? Awful. An absolutely strange mix of 'poets' - just names drawn out of a cyber hat. I feel used - I laughed at the project until I found myself in it - so much work for what? It isn't even a good sham in as much as I doubt there is a public readership out there who would believe in it. Too much exposure has happened for that to be achieved. ... but a fun game for those who created it. That is all. It would be doubly cool if the perpetrators now offered us a 'true' anthology with OUR poems in it as Issue 2. Andrew 2008/10/8 J.P. Craig : > Hmm. I wonder what I'm about to walk into? > > By "valid" I mean informed by desires and assumptions that I think the > majority of us should be able to accommodate in our little individual > Cartesian theaters, either because they spring from desires we may share on > some level or because they correspond to recognizable positions that have a > history. Though I'm prepared to argue with many positions I'm willing to > call valid. > > If you're getting at what my position is on all this, well, I lean toward > thinking we should see this thing as a work of art rather than an attempt to > steal someone's identity. I think it's just as clear here as it was in After > Lorca that we're not seeing real toads in an imaginary garden. That is to > say, this is not a pipe, and you can smoke it in a nonsmoking area. > > > On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > >> On 7 Oct 2008 at 11:32, J.P. Craig wrote: >>> >>> ... I think all of these are valid positions ...< >> >> Please define "valid" as you're using it here. >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > JP Craig > http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Andrew http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:03:57 -0700 Reply-To: eric_dickey@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm finding the relationship between this thread and the fake anthology thr= ead peculiarly similar. Troy, I'm gonna have to call you out on this one, though, because, like Mur= at, I wonder if you are for real.=A0 Are you an algorithm of capitalist spe= ak that strings together coarse rhetoric?=A0 I'm sorry, this is not a perso= nal attack, but I sometimes wonder if neo-con, economic-terrorists should b= e pursued for espousing their brand of un-information (not misinformation, = just information that isn't complete and is more self-serving, ie your the-= wealthy-should-be-appreciated bent; I mean, could you shove your nose up th= ere any farther?=A0 The poor should appreciate the wealthy so that the weal= thy can have a population on which to regulate wealth.=A0 This teeters on hate speech, Troy.=20 I remember a comment by the IMF (or world bank?) VP a few years back, somet= hing about how third world countries should accept waste from first world c= ountries since they have nothing better going on anyway. I'm glad you brought up the anthropological approach, because economics is = a biological science, a label most economists would resist, I'm sure.=A0 Th= e predominant world view (think indigenous American, if it helps you) holds that when an open system is functioning properly, wealth is nat= urally occurring and poverty is the deviate.=A0 When an open system, (think= agriculture) is functioning properly (rain, sun, soil) it is self-sustaini= ng.=A0 As example, I don't have to do anything to my apple trees, and they = provide me with a wealth of apples.=A0 However, if we get an unusual freeze= that kills the blossoms, I don't get squat for apples. Another example, think buffalo - to continue my first-peoples thread - hoar= ding and fencing property for personal gain prevented access of animals and= of people, and the mass slaughter of animals created wealth for one people= , and suppressed another people, to say the least.=A0 And that was certainl= y not "naturally" occurring. But I suppose our arguments depend on our definitions of wealth.=A0 Yours, = I suspect, is monetarily based, mine is the opposite.=A0 (What is the oppos= ite of money?)=A0 You see, I think the more wealth one has, the more potent= ial he/she has to impoverish others.=A0=20 When a wealthy person buys a yacht, for example, can we not see the teak fo= rests in its deck, the fine silk in its sail?=A0 Those resources have more = wealth potential if they are left standing.=A0 Every time we spend money th= at means somebody else has to go without something.=A0 But you see, I think= that my money isn't really my money, it's your money.=A0 And by my holding it, I am promising that I will do something with it, not for me, b= ut for you.=A0 I am promising a return for service or goods, for payment of= debt, public or private.=A0 And furthermore, by hoarding it and accumulati= ng mass wealth, the wealthy are preventing others from returning services o= r goods and living in a self-sustaining way.=A0=A0Biologically speaking. Even President Eisenhower understood it.=A0 He said something like, every t= ime a bullet is fired or a warship is launched, that means people are going= without food, or clothes, or roofs over their heads. Wealth causes poverty; accumulating and using it for personal gain is dange= rous.=20 I didn't even scratch the $700b bailout surface.=A0 Private profits, social= debt, do you really need it explained? I believe in free markets.=A0 But the market we are living with is not a fr= ee market.=A0 It is heavily governed and regulated by the wealthiest people in our population. But these are my beliefs, I don't portend to impose.=A0 I've worked with ec= onomists, but I am not an economist. Eric --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 5:37 PM The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is noth= ing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you otherwise was lying to you.=20 Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing = in it is. Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of econo= mics is not ideological; not believing in it is. My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it excuse= s poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of poverty, that= it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that we should be tryi= ng to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural state of things, and th= e wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, allows for the wealth of othe= rs. THe world is not a zero-sum game. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Troy, You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we should tolerate it because it has existed before. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or th= e > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behave= d > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > decline), the US and Australia. > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > our own backyard. > > A > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historicall= y > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness o= f > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > world. > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poo= r > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > everyone. > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > A > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:31:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <20081008.172716.2756.24.skyplums@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Why only 3000+ entries? Perec at least chose a noble accomplishment (Hundred Thousand Billion Poems). Are at least one poem for each person on the planet living & dead. ~mIEKAL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:41:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ismaelia al Sadiq Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear David=2C my friend=2C I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have=2C and have a= lso=2C at the same time=2C forwarded it to a Muslim network in the Middle E= ast and Africa that includes (I think) Turkey=2C Iran=2C Iraq=2C Syria=2C L= ebanon=2C Jordan=2C the Palestinian territories=2C Egypt=2C Libya=2C Tunesi= a and Algeria=2C and constitutes upwards of 10=2C000 persons. A good perce= ntage of those in it use generic email servers=2C Hotmail=2C Live=2C Yahoo= =2C etc.=2C so they can all vote with alacrity and the necessary fearlessne= ss that they will not be discovered as non-Americans. Ha! Imagine! > Dat= e: Wed=2C 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subjec= t: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding b= y Right will win it=2C make mainstream news> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.E= DU> > PBS has an online > poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> = Apparently the right wing > knew about this in advance and are flooding> th= e voting with YES > votes.> > The poll will be reported on PBS and picked u= p by mainstream > media. It> can influence undecided voters in swing states= .> > Please do > two things -- takes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vo= te > yourself.> > Here's the > link:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-4= 35.html > > 2) Then send > this to every single Obama-Biden voter you know= =2C and urge> them to vote and > pass it on.> > The last thing we need is P= BS saying their viewers think > Sarah Palin is> qualified.> > > ___________= ______________________________________________________> Stay up to date on = your PC=2C the Web=2C and your mobile phone with Windows Live.> http://clk.= atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guide= lines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on= the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:09:00 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: poet hire - encouraging experimental and/or oral poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline sending again The Department of English at Illinois State University ( http://www.english.ilstu.edu/) seeks a Creative Writing, Poetry, tenure-track, assistant professor: Given our Ph.D. in English Studies, and our recent Ph.D. with emphasis in Creative Writing, we seek candidates prepared to work in a Department that stresses the relationships among literatures, linguistics, rhetoric and pedagogies. We encourage candidates with expertise in experimental poetics and/or oral poetics. Requirements to be met by appointment date: 1) terminal degree, 2) dissertation and/or publications in the field, and 3) demonstrated commitment to publishing and teaching. Position start date: August 16, 2009. To assure full consideration, please send letter, vita, and complete dossier by November 3, 2008 to: Joan Mullin, Chair, Department of English, Campus Box 4240, Normal, Illinois 61790-4240 or email attachments to Angela Scott at arscott@ilstu.edu, subject line: Creative Writing Search. Applications acknowledged. Interviews conducted at MLA. gabrielgudding@gmail.com gmguddi@ilstu.edu -- Gabriel Gudding Associate Professor, English Studies Illinois State University Normal IL 61790-4240 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:33:38 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Josef Kaplan Subject: Sustainable Aircraft 002 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello everyone, The second issue of Sustainable Aircraft, an online journal of critical writing on contemporary poetry, is up at www.sustainableaircraft.com. In this issue... # Alex Linhardt reviews Brandon Brown=E2=80=99s Kidnapped # Diana Hamilton reviews Meg Hamill=E2=80=99s Death Notices # Kareem Estefan reviews K. Silem Mohammad=E2=80=99s Breathalyzer # Eddie Hopely reviews Nico Vassilakis=E2=80=99 Text Loses Time # Michael Scharf reviews Saul Williams=E2=80=99 =E2=80=9CNGH WHT=E2=80=9D= from The Dead Emcee Scrolls # A recording of Kevin Killian and Dodie Bellamy at Dixon Place (Belladon= na Series) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:46:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <143185.37060.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Troy, I'm not satisfied in saying that liberals are those that seek an end to responsibility, tho' I'm sure you can cite examples. I've always taken "liberal" to mean not drawing on a fear of the future to dictate decision as rote -- that our "freedom" (with its burdens of decision) cannot mean "algorithm." (While we're at it, how do you differentiate burden/choice from Sartrean existentialism? And why does freedom not mean anarchy? Surely there are choices when no established order exists? Surely when there is nothing there are greater freedoms? Could this have been what Bush had in mind when he sent troops -- soldiers -- to destroy a foreign "power", thus eradicating all remnants of anything, establishing a "nothing" in its place?) My questions and doubts aside, if this system exists spontaneously, it seems to exist outside of society. I recognize this, but I also reject the idea that the market should be left on its own, since its very spontaneity categorizes it as dangerous and anti-social. Individuals engaging in activities with the goal of bringing about such spontaneity should be viewed as anti-democratic, and need regulation at best. In American democracy, the Freedom, the burden, is reworked into Liberty (sometimes civil, sometimes human, sometimes viewed as a "right") that there are things we cannot do. We're free to murder, but we're not at liberty to do so; our burden is relaxed. [An aside: It's interesting to note that in Romance languages such as Spanish (and I assume French too) that liberty/la libertad functions to mean both freedom and liberty.] To differentiate between Freedom and Liberty was something our fledgling government sought. So it's not that we're burdened by a social contract, but nor are we to be held bound to burdens imposed by a corporate class. The emergence of said class isn't part of society, since it cannot partake in the liberties afforded to citizens. [Laws have, of course, been passed to give human rights and recognition to corporations; but the difference is plain in most cases, i.e., you cannot commit a hate crime against a corporation.] The architects of democracy, never all-knowing but well aware of this, knew this corporatism would seek to shift burden, in the name of freedom, to the citizenry. An open system is "free" to do this, but it certainly isn't at "liberty" to do so, and regulation establishes that this gap between freedom and liberty exists, and further seeks to fill it by rule of law, which should always come before the narrow binary of profit/loss. Since an open system demands it be regulated in order to not collapse on itself, it cannot be considered open, as such a move would be akin to calling a dictatorship a "participatory democracy." On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > In an open system, you necessarily have to have energy coming into and > exiting from the system. As the occurs, internal order is created -- an > order that lies on the borderline of order and chaos, also known as creative > destruction. In other words, it is a self-organizing system. It is liberals > who want us to be free of burdens and choices. Freedom does not mean that, > as it cannot be separated from responsibility. Freedom does not mean > anarchy, but rather the implementation of the best rules to make the system > creative. Note that I said "rules" and not "laws," as the former are > flexible and can be bent, but the latter are inflexible and cannot be > broken. Thus, the market is not orderless, but rather is a spontaneous > order, ordered by no one person or group of people, but emergent from the > activities of everyone. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:43:30 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Not sure we've been over this point yet, but here goes: If the free market > is "open," what does that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free > for what? Burdens and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it? > > I would rather it be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or, > better, Amok. > > > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell >wrote: > > > Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & > > Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most > people > > wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't > > mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well > enough, > > ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement > > favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is > ok > > in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't people > > get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan > that's > > done wonders for the enviroment. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Troy Camplin > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is > > nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you > > otherwise was lying to you. > > > > Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. > > Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not > believing > > in it is. > > Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of > > economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. > > > > My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it > > excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of > > poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something > that > > we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the > natural > > state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in > others. > > Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, > > allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > Troy, > > > > You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not > > believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you > > been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, > the > > credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your > > "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at > the > > root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a > casino > > in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. > > > > As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we > > should tolerate it because it has existed before. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > > > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > > > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or > > the > > > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism > > behaved > > > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't > ideological > > at > > > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like > > free > > > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of > deserts > > in > > > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing > world > > is > > > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the > governments > > > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people > > than > > > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > > > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven > > everywhere > > > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Alison Croggon > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > > > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > > > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > > > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > > > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > > > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > > > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > > > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > > > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > > > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > > > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > > > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > > > decline), the US and Australia. > > > > > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > > > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > > > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > > > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > > > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > > > our own backyard. > > > > > > A > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > > > wrote: > > > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. > Wealth > > is > > > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask > > instead > > > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. > > Historically > > > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government > has > > > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > > > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness > > of > > > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the > > freest > > > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong > > central > > > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the > > U.S.S.R. > > > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a > poor > > > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > > > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do > > is > > > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > > > world. > > > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more > > harm > > > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > > > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps > > poor > > > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > > > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Alison Croggon > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing > for > > > > everyone. > > > > > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > > > > > A > > > > -- > > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 21:52:04 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline thanks for the questions I'm surprised at this. For one thing I'm never sure what "the writers of > this work" means, especially when online work is considered. just because it is online doesn't mean there aren't writers, and they can't be determined > Second, if 'real people's' names weren't used, the anthology would lose its > axis; it's about, among other things, poetics and the 'poetry world,' such > as it is - not an attempt to create a fictitous school of writing. Is it? I'm not convinced, especially not by virtue of the text. > > Third I'm not sure about the 'essential nature of the writtenness of > computer programs' - why this is essential. It seems to me essential that computer programs are written and that computer languages are largely English-based. I have long placed a value this way. This leads me to say that, for instance, computer garbage on a VAX was written by all the users of the VAX as well as the programmers and perhaps some of the designers; in a similar fashion, I argue the anthology was written -- more so, more so than a garbage file -- ; and then I learn that it is a sort of super advanced gnoetry that doesn't use a deliberate aiming perhaps? I dunno. > And it doesn't spout post-human or other theory - you're making the > connection - one might just as easily see it as the last gauge of > romanticism. But it does, because I think a guy in a room wrote the thing and pretended that 3000 people with some duplicates, non-poets, and spoofs did, to show what? Why on earth a 'test'? If I write something, say this, is it also a 'test'? Is it a 'test' if you can't locate intentionality in the - what? word choice, method of composition, thing itself? If a person writes it, it is tested by reading and revising; if I have a test bed of stuff and run it through my program, that is also called a test. Does the writer read his work? Do all writers read their work? Does Kenneth Goldsmith? I've known writers who don't in fact; I think we all must. How does he know it's poetry? Is there a test about what's poetry and not? What's bad poetry and not? But this is the prime area of my concern; Kenneth at least proofs the majority of his work: that involves reading of a sort. By publishing it as poetry, at least he and / or his editor or publisher call it poetry because they make the similie: they publish it as poetry. But here, a writer and an editor called it poetry for the very overt signs that make it bad and because they ascribe it to poets who call themselves poets. I think harvesting names is wonderful, and a text which (you say) is one substance is fascinating and raises a lot of interesting questions about aesthetics, Kant, sublime of course, etc. I don't, but I don't care for Kant much either. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:20:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nicholas Piombino Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I had to go back and reread The Barrel Organ (1938) by Alfred Noyes after I alluded to the poem at the end of my last post. I hadn't remembered these lines: "There's a thief, perhaps, that listens with a face of frozen stone In the City as the sun sinks low; There's a portly man of business with a balance of his own, There's a clerk and there's a butcher of a soft reposeful tone, And they're all of them returning to the heavens they have known: They are crammed and jammed in busses and--they're each of them alone In the land where the dead dreams go. There's a labourer that listens to the voices of the dead In the City as the sun sinks low; And his hand begins to tremble and his face is rather red As he sees a loafer watching him and--there he turns his head And stares into the sunset where his April love is fled, For he hears her softly singing and his lonely soul is led Through the land where the dead dreams go... There's a barrel-organ carolling across a golden street In the City as the sun sinks low; Though the music's only Verdi there's a world to make it sweet Just as yonder yellow sunset where the earth and heaven meet Mellows all the sooty City! Hark, a hundred thousand feet Are marching on to glory through the poppies and the wheat In the land where the dead dreams go." Nick On 10/8/08 8:56 PM, "Jason Quackenbush" wrote: > I think my point, as my thinking develops on this, is that perhaps > there is a sense in which our names are not ours at all. rather they > belong to the community as signifiers of us, but that use doesn't > limit them from being used in other ways. names are perhaps the most > public of language. wittgenstein would suggest that a use of a name > is meaningful if there are public criteria by which the particular > use can be determined to be used correctly or not. i'm inlcined to > agree with that sort of thinking, and as such think that the correct > reading of this is that these names are used en masse in a group of > writer's names. it is clear from the content that none of the writers > listed actually wrote this stuff. so i'm inclined to think that the > meaning in this is that this is a list of writers, here are some > poets they didn't write, and as such this is a use of a name that is > very different from the normal sorts of uses that we think of for > names, such as signing work, hailing someone, or specifying a > specific person. > > the interesting thing here then is to ask whether the use of your or > my or geraldine monk's or shakespeare's name is meaningful at all. i > think it is, and am inclined to read it in the way that nick piombino > mentioned and that silliman hinted at in his blog post about the > topic. that is, these things function as a signifier of our communal > stewardship of the language as writers, even those on the list who > aren't poets, and further that there is something here in the > questioning of authorship in the age of authorial identity through > textual communication the likes of whcih so much of our socialization > revolves around. > > as such it as value and meaning and is a good thing. > > or maybe i really ought to go back to a one fall cage match and shut > the hell up. > -J > > On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > >> JF/Jason/whoever you are-- So does that mean my name is mine if the >> only >> other one I can find with first and last identical is dead (and the >> only >> thing on her is an obit)? Or does that mean that with my middle name >> included, it's definitely my name since I'm the only one who comes >> up under >> it? Hurrah for given and family names with mismatched ethnic >> identities >> then! (I prefer, too, to be referred to in publication with my >> middle name >> included not for this reason of uniqueness but for the related goal of >> ensuring that my initials are different from those of my brother, >> my late >> father, and his late father.) >> >> Really, my primary thought about the anthology was that it was >> boring. A big >> mass of dull, dull poetry sometimes mediocre and sometimes dreck; >> I'd really >> rather have godawful poetry that mediocre work associated with the >> name that >> perhaps by the wonders of idiosyncrasy I could be said to possess. The >> outrage responses, however, are hilarious! >> >> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >> elizabethkateswitaj.net >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wouldn't accuse the worst knee jerk liberal "of wanting us to be free of = burdens or choices." Unless he or she were=A0no older than 10. You're a lib= ertarion, am I correct Troy? The Libs=A0have some interesting ideas. I'm ra= ther fond of the old/left wing libs. I'm libertarion as it concerns the bod= y, meaning individual adult choice in matters of narcotics, sexual identity= , or abortion, and I know a few Catholic libertarions that are near fanatic= =A0as it concerns=A0the fetus.=A0=0AAlso, I consider leisure to be among th= e=A0finest, if not the finest benefit of a civilized society.=A0Which is wh= y I=A0favor Socialism. France, for instance, a country where a worker=A0get= s far more vacation time than in the States, longer lunch breaks, and they = have these really cool philosophical coffee joints=A0that serve beer and wi= ne and people still smoke unfiltered cigarettes. Tell me that is not living= !!!=A0=A0=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, Oc= tober 8, 2008 8:55:00 PM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0AIn an ope= n system, you necessarily have to have energy coming into and exiting from = the system. As the occurs, internal order is created -- an order that lies = on the borderline of order and chaos, also known as creative destruction. I= n other words, it is a self-organizing system. It is liberals who want us t= o be free of burdens and choices. Freedom does not mean that, as it cannot = be separated from responsibility. Freedom does not mean anarchy, but rather= the implementation of the best rules to make the system creative. Note tha= t I said "rules" and not "laws," as the former are flexible and can be bent= , but the latter are inflexible and cannot be broken. Thus, the market is n= ot orderless, but rather is a spontaneous order, ordered by no one person o= r group of people, but emergent from the activities of everyone. =0A=0ATroy= Camplin=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ryan Daley =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, October 8, 2= 008 6:43:30 PM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0ANot sure we've been= over this point yet, but here goes: If the free market=0Ais "open," what d= oes that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free=0Afor what? Burden= s and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it?=0A=0AI would rather it = be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or,=0Abetter, Amok.=0A=0A= =0A=0AOn Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell wrote:=0A=0A> Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy= , Bush 43, &=0A> Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, = what most people=0A> wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, wh= at economy isn't=0A> mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economie= s works well enough,=0A> ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks a= nd early retirement=0A> favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems t= he quality of life is ok=0A> in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awh= ile.=A0 Besides, don't people=0A> get bored with the same old motto: Produc= e/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's=0A> done wonders for the enviroment.=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A> ----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, Octobe= r 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM=0A> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A>=0A> The fina= ncial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it.=A0 There is=0A> nothin= g in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you=0A> otherwi= se was lying to you.=0A>=0A> Believing in evolution is not ideological; not= believing in it is.=0A> Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not id= eological; not believing=0A> in it is.=0A> Believing in the spontaneous ord= er known as the free market system of=0A> economics is not ideological; not= believing in it is.=0A>=0A> My anthropological approach does not excuse sl= avery any more than it=0A> excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is unde= rstand the origins of=0A> poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth = is new and something that=0A> we should be trying to get more people into. = But wealth is not the natural=0A> state of things, and the wealth of others= does not cause poverty in others.=0A> Historically, the wealth of others, = especially in free market situations,=0A> allows for the wealth of others. = THe world is not a zero-sum game.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A> ----- Or= iginal Message ----=0A> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat =0A> To:= POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 A= M=0A> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A>=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> You mean "bel= ieving in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not=0A> believing in= it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you=0A> been follo= wing the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the=0A> credi= t swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your=0A> "natura= l" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the=0A> ro= ot of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino=0A= > in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank.=0A>=0A> As f= or your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we=0A> s= hould tolerate it because it has existed before.=0A>=0A> Ciao,=0A>=0A> Mura= t=0A>=0A>=0A> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin =0A> wrote:=0A>=0A> > Just because I find the Left despicable, that= doesn't mean I like the=0A> > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go = far enough to the Right or=0A> the=0A> > Left, and they end up being the sa= me things (Naziism and Communism=0A> behaved=0A> > almost identically). I'm= a free market supporter, which isn't ideological=0A> at=0A> > all, because= saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like=0A> free=0A> > = market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts= =0A> in=0A> > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the devel= oping world=0A> is=0A> > occurring not because of corporations per se, but = because the governments=0A> > there are socialist kleptocracies more intere= sted in robbing the people=0A> than=0A> > in providing the kinds of institu= tions (rule of law with independent=0A> > judiciaries, property rights prot= ections, etc.) which have proven=0A> everywhere=0A> > they are tried to lif= e the poor out of their poverty.=0A> >=0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >= ----- Original Message ----=0A> > From: Alison Croggon =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 20= 08 8:30:57 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A> >=0A> > The left = is more diabolical than the right? They both have their=0A> > monsters. And= I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any=0A> > more (thoug= h I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist=0A> > marxism cropping= up here and there). Democratic governments across the=0A> > west are stead= ily heading towards police states in the service of=0A> > corporate power -= what else is the US government about these days? Is=0A> > Blackwater such = a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation=0A> > of state viole= nce? Rampant development is probably responsible for=0A> > most mass specie= s extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in=0A> > the grim tips o= f Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures=0A> > on the declinin= g populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across=0A> > the globe, in= cluding the UK (where animal populations are in serious=0A> > decline), the= US and Australia.=0A> >=0A> > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumul= ated huge amounts of=0A> > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of= others. No mystery=0A> > there. Corporations are no different. All that po= llution in the=0A> > "developing world" is our factories at work, without t= hose pesky=0A> > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and ex= pensive in=0A> > our own backyard.=0A> >=0A> > A=0A> >=0A> > On Tue, Oct 7,= 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin =0A> > wrote:=0A> > >= Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth=0A>= is=0A> > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and a= sk=0A> instead=0A> > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help th= e poor.=0A> Historically=0A> > it has been free markets creating wealth, no= t government. Government has=0A> > historically gotten wealthy through thef= t and threats. You will find no=0A> > friend of government here -- whether = it is through the wrong-headedness=0A> of=0A> > the welfare state or the "d= efense industry." The countries with the=0A> freest=0A> > markets all have = the cleanest environments, while those with strong=0A> central=0A> > govern= ments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the=0A> U.S.S.R.= =0A> > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a = poor=0A> > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not = that we=0A> > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we = need to do=0A> is=0A> > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proc= eed to improve the=0A> >=A0 world.=0A> > >=A0 Naivety and ignorance are two= very dangerous things, and cause more=0A> harm=0A> > than good. They're as= dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of=0A> > them. Good intenti= ons minus an understanding of reality is what keeps=0A> poor=0A> > people p= oor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's=0A> > going= on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical.=0A> > >=0A> >= > Troy Camplin=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > ----- Original Message ----=0A> > >= From: Alison Croggon =0A> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BU= FFALO.EDU=0A> > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM=0A> > > Subject= : Re: EXCITED for the math=0A> > >=0A> > > Nice to know that we can leave t= he fate of the poor in the hands of=0A> > > those generous rich people, who= so nicely provide jobs and housing for=0A> > > everyone.=0A> > >=0A> > > N= ow, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the=0A> > > moder= ately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how=0A> > > much= damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the=0A> > > life= styles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to=0A> > > mention= the millions of species that are presently being wiped out,=0A> > > due to= pollution and unregulated development and everything that=0A> > > follows = on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some=0A> > > questio= ning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its=0A> > > effec= ts, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal=0A> > > naivety = the order of the day?=0A> > >=0A> > > A=0A> > > --=0A> > > Editor, Masthead= :=A0 http://www.masthead.net.au=0A> > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.= com=0A> > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com=0A> > >=0A> > > =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not acce= pt all posts. Check=0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.e= du/poetics/welcome.html=0A> > >=0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >= > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> > g= uidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>= > >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > --=0A> > Editor, Masthead:=A0 http://www.masth= ead.net.au=0A> > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A> > Home page: ht= tp://www.alisoncroggon.com=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > Th= e Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelin= es=0A> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> = >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & = does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines=0A> > & sub/unsub info: htt= p://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Ch= eck guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= .html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderate= d & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.= Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is m= oderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: ht= tp://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A= =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:31:04 -0700 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Jorgensen, Alexander" Subject: Toot-toot: Alexander Jorgensen - 5 poems - Blackbox online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.williamjamesaustin.com/five.html =A0 I invite you to peruse these works. Oh, yes! =A0 Alexander Jorgensen =A0=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:15:59 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wonderful stuff, Nick, I mean your prose. Aside from the unbearable lightne= ss of blogging, have you read Italo Calvino's comments concerning lightness= ? I was losing patience with this whole Fake Anthology bit, but, hey, I'm s= uddenly nostalgic for privacy. Damn, if I had a penny or two I'd consider K= urt Weil,=A0but far=A02 many cameras point in whichever direction one walks= , yep, D.C., and I'm already off=A0of the topic. =A0=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Origi= nal Message ----=0AFrom: Nicholas Piombino =0ATo: = POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 10:51:30 AM= =0ASubject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho)=0A=0AI would just call it= -The Unbearable Lightness of Issue #1. For days I've=0Abeen coming back to = posts about the faux anthology and trying to write a=0Aresponse. Geraldine = Monk and Sharon Mesmer added perceptive things to think=0Aabout and some of= it connects to the aspect that I was focused on yesterday=0Athat had to do= with the loss of something, maybe privacy, but that word does=0Anot get th= e whole thing I've been feeling today, a day later. In a way, I=0Afeel like= this is the kind of note I should write drunk.=A0 As I've said=0Apublicly = and privately many times, it was in the wake of 9/11 that I began=0Ato trul= y value and appreciate the opportunities for ongoing and immediate=0Acommun= ity with poets made available on this list.=A0 After the satisfactions=0Aan= d challenges of that experience, I began blogging, and have found great=0Av= alue in that as well. But, as with every expansion, there is a price to be= =0Apaid. While I also very much miss the privacy Geraldine Monk is writing= =0Aabout so vividly and sensitively, I very well realize it is rapidly beco= ming=0Aa relic of the past like a tune you can tap your foot to but not qui= te=0Aremember the words of or the old mood completely. But there is somethi= ng=0Aabout that huge sudden ironic parody that calls for instant recognitio= n of=0Athe non serious nature of the intervention. This is the "unbearable= =0Alightness of blogging" as I once termed it, par excellence. A poetry cir= cus=0Awagon blows in, warm wind and ill wind, spins a few sails, shakes a f= ew=0Atails and blows out: a party with=A0 real laughs, a few growls and roa= rs and=0Asome intense conversations where you recognize a lot of people, do= n't know=0Asome, you figure "everybody" was there, but of course that's not= literally=0Apossible. The feeling is, maybe they were out of town or somet= hing, or just=0Acouldn't make it, but not that they were deliberately exclu= ded. I know I=0Awould have felt left out had I not been mentioned. But sinc= e I was I do get=0Ainto that lightness, but it is a blue lightness while st= ill feeling=0Anostalgic for the more private days of the whole long stretch= ed out thing-=0Agetting an invitation, figuring what to send, waiting to he= ar, then getting=0Aaccepted.=A0 But in this party atmosphere it's just all = so quickly thrown=0Atogether, no time, so quickly check how my poem was dre= ssed and acted, ok,=0Adid I see some friends, yeah, their poems are ok. So = then it's over, and=0Athere's the hangover of- what did I do, did I actuall= y write that thing, no=0Away, nobody did,=A0 a computer wrote it. After all= , it is the era of the=0Amachine. So what did I say- I'm not sure how I fee= l now. Then the party=0Areally starts and everyone talks about it for days.= No, not like a reading=0Aor an opening, more like a bash, or an old fashio= ned happening where people=0Awere only half aware of what was going on. May= be all the evidence has=0Aalready been put away and the place has been swep= t up. Maybe a few people=0Aactually kept their party favors and others left= and forgot them. But now=0Athere's a memory, that Godot thing that gets ta= lked about. People have been=0Asaying that we are in a time warp in that in= New York now, that we are in a=0Arepeat of the Weimar era. Maybe this Godo= t thing is our cabaret- rude,=0Acrude, risque, funny, a little dark, with m= usic by Kurt Weill and a set by=0AKirchner, Grosz or Hannah Hoch. I had eve= n written in the comment section of=0AIssue 1, "There has been talk of a po= etry bailout. Is this it?" It looks=0Alike the powers that be are plotting = to send the whole batch of us poets and=0Aday workers out onto the streets = as in *The Threepenny Opera* while=0A"citibank" robs everybody blind. And t= hen we'll listen to the barrel organ=0Asound, in the city while the sun sin= ks low.=0A=0ANick=0A=0A=0AOn 10/7/08 8:39 PM, "Geraldine Monk" wrote:=0A=0A> The pace of change has been=0A>>> phenomenal a= nd much of it for the better but it has been at the=A0 cost of=0A>>> our pr= ivacy.=A0 In a way it's a matter of what you don't know=A0 you don't=0A>>> = miss.=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buf= falo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more thing, Troy. You distinguish between rules & laws, but if one does= n't play by the rules in the market, there's this ugly thing called jail. R= emember Martha Stewart? That, I believe, is called the rule of law.=A0Maybe= a casino is the ultimate open system. Fun, but ultimately a losers game. = =A0& by the way, is your field game theory? Mathmatics?=A0Economics? both..= .=A0Clearly, you seem to know a thing or two about "open & closed systems."= =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, October 8, = 2008 8:55:00 PM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0AIn an open system,= you necessarily have to have energy coming into and exiting from the syste= m. As the occurs, internal order is created -- an order that lies on the bo= rderline of order and chaos, also known as creative destruction. In other w= ords, it is a self-organizing system. It is liberals who want us to be free= of burdens and choices. Freedom does not mean that, as it cannot be separa= ted from responsibility. Freedom does not mean anarchy, but rather the impl= ementation of the best rules to make the system creative. Note that I said = "rules" and not "laws," as the former are flexible and can be bent, but the= latter are inflexible and cannot be broken. Thus, the market is not orderl= ess, but rather is a spontaneous order, ordered by no one person or group o= f people, but emergent from the activities of everyone. =0A=0ATroy Camplin= =0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ryan Daley = =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:43= :30 PM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0ANot sure we've been over th= is point yet, but here goes: If the free market=0Ais "open," what does that= "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free=0Afor what? Burdens and ch= oices? Or progress? What's "free" about it?=0A=0AI would rather it be calle= d the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or,=0Abetter, Amok.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn= Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell wrote:= =0A=0A> Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush = 43, &=0A> Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what mo= st people=0A> wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what econ= omy isn't=0A> mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works= well enough,=0A> ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and earl= y retirement=0A> favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the qual= ity of life is ok=0A> in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile.=A0= Besides, don't people=0A> get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produ= ce/Produce, a slogan that's=0A> done wonders for the enviroment.=0A>=0A>=0A= >=0A> ----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 20= 08 8:37:48 PM=0A> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A>=0A> The financial c= risis is not even remotely as you portray it.=A0 There is=0A> nothing in th= e area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you=0A> otherwise was = lying to you.=0A>=0A> Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believ= ing in it is.=0A> Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideologic= al; not believing=0A> in it is.=0A> Believing in the spontaneous order know= n as the free market system of=0A> economics is not ideological; not believ= ing in it is.=0A>=0A> My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery a= ny more than it=0A> excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand = the origins of=0A> poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new = and something that=0A> we should be trying to get more people into. But wea= lth is not the natural=0A> state of things, and the wealth of others does n= ot cause poverty in others.=0A> Historically, the wealth of others, especia= lly in free market situations,=0A> allows for the wealth of others. THe wor= ld is not a zero-sum game.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A> ----- Original = Message ----=0A> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat =0A> To: POETIC= S@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM=0A> S= ubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A>=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> You mean "believing = in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not=0A> believing in it is?= That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you=0A> been following th= e congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the=0A> credit swaps= , which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your=0A> "natural" stat= e of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the=0A> root of a= lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino=0A> in th= e sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank.=0A>=0A> As for your= "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we=0A> should t= olerate it because it has existed before.=0A>=0A> Ciao,=0A>=0A> Murat=0A>= =0A>=0A> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin =0A> wrote:=0A>=0A> > Just because I find the Left despicable, that does= n't mean I like the=0A> > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far e= nough to the Right or=0A> the=0A> > Left, and they end up being the same th= ings (Naziism and Communism=0A> behaved=0A> > almost identically). I'm a fr= ee market supporter, which isn't ideological=0A> at=0A> > all, because sayi= ng you support a naturally-occurring human system like=0A> free=0A> > marke= t economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts=0A> in= =0A> > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing w= orld=0A> is=0A> > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because= the governments=0A> > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in= robbing the people=0A> than=0A> > in providing the kinds of institutions (= rule of law with independent=0A> > judiciaries, property rights protections= , etc.) which have proven=0A> everywhere=0A> > they are tried to life the p= oor out of their poverty.=0A> >=0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > ----- = Original Message ----=0A> > From: Alison Croggon =0A> = > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30= :57 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A> >=0A> > The left is more= diabolical than the right? They both have their=0A> > monsters. And I'm no= t so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any=0A> > more (though I'm n= oticing an interesting nascent post-communist=0A> > marxism cropping up her= e and there). Democratic governments across the=0A> > west are steadily hea= ding towards police states in the service of=0A> > corporate power - what e= lse is the US government about these days? Is=0A> > Blackwater such a marve= llous thing, really, that massive privatisation=0A> > of state violence? Ra= mpant development is probably responsible for=0A> > most mass species extin= ction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in=0A> > the grim tips of Easte= rn Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures=0A> > on the declining popul= ations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across=0A> > the globe, including= the UK (where animal populations are in serious=0A> > decline), the US and= Australia.=0A> >=0A> > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated hu= ge amounts of=0A> > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others= . No mystery=0A> > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution= in the=0A> > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pe= sky=0A> > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive= in=0A> > our own backyard.=0A> >=0A> > A=0A> >=0A> > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 a= t 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin =0A> > wrote:=0A> > > Povert= y is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth=0A> is=0A>= > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask=0A> = instead=0A> > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor.= =0A> Historically=0A> > it has been free markets creating wealth, not gover= nment. Government has=0A> > historically gotten wealthy through theft and t= hreats. You will find no=0A> > friend of government here -- whether it is t= hrough the wrong-headedness=0A> of=0A> > the welfare state or the "defense = industry." The countries with the=0A> freest=0A> > markets all have the cle= anest environments, while those with strong=0A> central=0A> > governments c= ontrolling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the=0A> U.S.S.R.=0A> > an= d now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor=0A> = > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we= =0A> > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to= do=0A> is=0A> > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to = improve the=0A> >=A0 world.=0A> > >=A0 Naivety and ignorance are two very d= angerous things, and cause more=0A> harm=0A> > than good. They're as danger= ous as the good intentions that flow out of=0A> > them. Good intentions min= us an understanding of reality is what keeps=0A> poor=0A> > people poor in = this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's=0A> > going on, be= cause otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical.=0A> > >=0A> > > Troy= Camplin=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > ----- Original Message ----=0A> > > From: = Alison Croggon =0A> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.E= DU=0A> > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM=0A> > > Subject: Re: E= XCITED for the math=0A> > >=0A> > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate= of the poor in the hands of=0A> > > those generous rich people, who so nic= ely provide jobs and housing for=0A> > > everyone.=0A> > >=0A> > > Now, I'v= e got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the=0A> > > moderately r= ich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how=0A> > > much damage= all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the=0A> > > lifestyles = of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to=0A> > > mention the mi= llions of species that are presently being wiped out,=0A> > > due to pollut= ion and unregulated development and everything that=0A> > > follows on from= that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some=0A> > > questioning on= the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its=0A> > > effects, pol= itically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal=0A> > > naivety the ord= er of the day?=0A> > >=0A> > > A=0A> > > --=0A> > > Editor, Masthead:=A0 ht= tp://www.masthead.net.au=0A> > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A>= > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com=0A> > >=0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all= posts. Check=0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poe= tics/welcome.html=0A> > >=0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > > The= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> > guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> > >= =0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > --=0A> > Editor, Masthead:=A0 http://www.masthead.= net.au=0A> > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A> > Home page: http:/= /www.alisoncroggon.com=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The P= oetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines= =0A> > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >= =0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & = does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines=0A> > & sub/unsub info: htt= p://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Ch= eck guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= .html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderate= d & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.= Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is m= oderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: ht= tp://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A= =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:13:13 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Open/Closed Systems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's interesting that Troy argues for an open system in economics, but his poetics are closed closed closed. Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 ----- Original Message ---- From: Troy Camplin To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 5:55:00 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In an open system, you necessarily have to have energy coming into and exiting from the system. As the occurs, internal order is created -- an order that lies on the borderline of order and chaos, also known as creative destruction. In other words, it is a self-organizing system. It is liberals who want us to be free of burdens and choices. Freedom does not mean that, as it cannot be separated from responsibility. Freedom does not mean anarchy, but rather the implementation of the best rules to make the system creative. Note that I said "rules" and not "laws," as the former are flexible and can be bent, but the latter are inflexible and cannot be broken. Thus, the market is not orderless, but rather is a spontaneous order, ordered by no one person or group of people, but emergent from the activities of everyone. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ryan Daley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:43:30 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Not sure we've been over this point yet, but here goes: If the free market is "open," what does that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free for what? Burdens and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it? I would rather it be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or, better, Amok. On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell wrote: > Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & > Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most people > wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't > mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well enough, > ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement > favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is ok > in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't people > get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's > done wonders for the enviroment. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is > nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you > otherwise was lying to you. > > Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. > Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing > in it is. > Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of > economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. > > My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it > excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of > poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that > we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural > state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. > Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, > allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Troy, > > You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not > believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you > been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the > credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your > "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the > root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino > in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. > > As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we > should tolerate it because it has existed before. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or > the > > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism > behaved > > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological > at > > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like > free > > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts > in > > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world > is > > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people > than > > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven > everywhere > > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > > decline), the US and Australia. > > > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > > our own backyard. > > > > A > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth > is > > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask > instead > > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. > Historically > > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness > of > > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the > freest > > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong > central > > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the > U.S.S.R. > > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do > is > > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > > world. > > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more > harm > > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps > poor > > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Alison Croggon > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > > everyone. > > > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > > > A > > > -- > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:19:45 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a very interesting point, Catherine, that hasn't been brought out u= ntil now: How much "reading" is a component of "writing." To some extent yo= u are saying that if the anthology had been subject to more editing, it=C2= =A0could have been a better piece of work. This is undoubtedly true. On the= other hand, I always recall something I read as a student in that Fussell-= fusty book on Poetic Meter and Poetic Form (or something to that effect): "= Any of the passing infelicities in Paradise Lost would have sunk a sonnet."= True, and the same could have been said of a sonnet in relation to a haiku= . There is some essential connection between the scale of one's overall for= m and the scale of one's attention. To compose something on a huge scale is= inevitably to exercise a certain disdain for detail, but that is not neces= sarily to damn the result.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A2) has the writer read the work= ?=C2=A0 He has called the results poetry, but has=0Ahe read it?=C2=A0 How d= oes he know?=0A=0AHis reading would make it more "his" -- his response:=C2= =A0 to publish it not=0Aunder his name.=C2=A0 Making Anne's reading of the = poem ascribed to her, finding=0Ain it poetry, a second reading, not a first= one.=C2=A0 The first "reading"=0Aunfortunately cannot be the machines, bec= ause um, they can't read.=C2=A0 They can=0Ascan.=C2=A0 (How was the text fe= d in?=C2=A0 Or not -- just trawled?=C2=A0 Any intervention=0Aof any type?= =C2=A0 Programmed intervention? Human intervention not via=0Aprogramming? A= ny humans read anything?=C2=A0 Tweak the code during output?) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:39:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, it was pretty insulting, at least for those of us who nourish the fon= d illusion that we have made some impression on this little world and are n= o longer=C2=A0desperate children hoping that teacher will call on us rather= than all the others in the class...but no matter, you should see what I ba= ckchannel about the people on the UK list.=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Messag= e ----=0AFrom: Geraldine Monk =0ATo: POETICS@LIST= SERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 12:35:15 AM=0ASubject: R= e: Generation game? (was fake antho)=0A=0AOops. Pardon me. This was meant t= o be private.=C2=A0 So apologies about=0Athe tone.=C2=A0 Not saying anythin= g in it that I haven't already said but it's=0Aall in a more flippant and j= okey tone.=C2=A0 I don't of course despair of this=0Aanymore than I'm in a = constant state of despair about everything - better =0Athan being bored. Br= ing back melodrama.=0A=0ACheers and hopefully no offence caused.=0A=0AGeral= dine=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: "Geraldine Monk" =0ATo: =0ASent: Wednesday,= October 08, 2008 2:07 AM=0ASubject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho)= =0A=0A=0A> Dear Sharon,=0A> Thanks so much for your reply.=C2=A0 I honestly= don't understand their=0A> satisfaction with being given a poem - it's not= the same as a found poem=0A> you find yourself - its all done and dusted w= ith no input from them=0A> whatsoever except the frisson of seeing their na= me - and then they have=0A> the 'hilarity' to argue that their name doesn't= matter.=C2=A0 Are=C2=A0 they are=0A> reading everyone else's fake poems! T= hey just don't seem to see the=0A> contradiction - nor the paucity of it. H= ilarious!=C2=A0 Bloody hell.=C2=A0 I=0A> despair. I think the lesser known = are most thrilled so maybe we shouldn't=0A> be to harsh on them but catch m= y next letter to Jason where I outline some=0A> more of my other concerns.= =0A>=0A> London 86!=C2=A0 Was that at Young Vic Theatre on The Cut?=C2=A0 I= think I also read=0A> at=C2=A0 the Festival Hall.=C2=A0 20 years ago!=C2= =A0 Oh no.=C2=A0 22 years ago.=C2=A0 Not water=0A> but torrents under the b= ridge.=C2=A0 How lovely that you were there.=0A>=0A> Take care,=0A>=0A> And= best wishes,=0A>=0A> Geraldine=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ----- Original Message = ----- =0A> From: "Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart" =0A> T= o: =0A> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 4:02 = PM=0A> Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho)=0A>=0A>=0A>> Geraldin= e,=0A>>=0A>> I write to you as a huge fan of your work -- I first saw you r= ead in=0A>> London in '86, in connection (I think, if memory serves) with= =0A>> MHorovitz's Grandchildren of Albion anthology -- and with no=C2=A0 di= srespect=0A>> whatsoever. In your post, you wrote:=0A>>=0A>>> But I can't g= et to the nub of why this should be because it's the=C2=A0 very=0A>>> act o= f writing poetry that gives satisfaction=0A>>=0A>> Indeed.=C2=A0 So much so= that having a little hoax poem (or two or three)=0A>> with one's name on i= t included among over 3,000 other little hoax=C2=A0 poems=0A>> could/should= never detract from that.=C2=A0 There's no real=C2=A0 satisfaction to=0A>> = be gained from seeing one's name on a poem one didn't=C2=A0 write (sometime= s=0A>> there's no satisfaction from seeing one's name on a=C2=A0 poem one d= id=0A>> write!).=C2=A0 There's a giggle, yeah, at the joke -- that=C2=A0 th= e poems are so=0A>> obviously not the work of the many, many poets whose=C2= =A0 names are affixed=0A>> to them --=C2=A0 but a giggle's not satisfaction= .=C2=A0 Okay,=C2=A0 sometimes it can be,=0A>> but I think not in this case.= =0A>>=0A>> The anthology has certainly revealed a lot of very interesting= =C2=A0 attitudes=0A>> (about, for one thing, litigation) among certain poet= s, and=C2=A0 maybe that's=0A>> its "value."=C2=A0 But what you wrote here i= s the most cogent=C2=A0 thing, in my=0A>> opinion, anyone's said about it:= =0A>>=0A>>> could we be seeing a real shift (or even rift) in attitudes bet= ween=0A>>> younger and older poets?=C2=A0 Many of you will have been brough= t up=C2=A0 with=0A>>> computer and be totally at ease with the computer age= with its=0A>>> impersonal and intrusive ways.=0A>>=0A>> There has definite= ly been a shift in the way I configure time in my=C2=A0 own=0A>> brain, and= the presence of a computer has contributed to that.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0 KNOW=0A>= > that the computer, as a kind of outside-the-body brain, has=C2=A0 changed= =0A>> poetry.=C2=A0 In my own life it is intrusive, but at the same time=C2= =A0 an=0A>> interesting tool -- and there's the slippery slope.=C2=A0 And i= f we=C2=A0 slip, do=0A>> we cling onto something, or let go and see where w= e land?=C2=A0 Either way,=0A>> it might hurt.=0A>>=0A>> x, Sharon Mesmer=0A= >>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A>> The Poetics List is mode= rated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Ch= eck=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= .html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated = & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.= buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:51:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sarah Sarai Subject: Re: fake anthology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain You're in it, Dalachinsky! You've been faked. Page 258. Now you too have the privilege of over intellectualizing a tug at the poe= t's need for fame.=20=20 We do have it--a fame knee-jerk.=20=20 Maybe fame is one of the poet's baser instincts, like the urge to kill so= meone whose tinny=20 music trilling from earphone impedes on airspace is a baser instinct. i.e., maybe we need to fight any craving for fame because like all cravings it = leads no where,=20 not to get Buddhist on your ass, but really, it just leads nowhere. Ther= e are careerists,=20 among us, even, and God bless them.=20 The average acceptance rate runs 3-7%. Which means you got to have a hel= l of a lot of=20 desire to see the work out there. I had to laugh at how happy I was to = also be faked, to=20 be in the anthology. Partly that's a desire to be included. I just want= to hang out with=20 you guys. But also the incredible importance people derive from being a = poet or talking=20 about what they consider to be intellectual issues. I mean, jeeze.=20=20= That's what Palin and McCain draw their energy from...when they make fun = of=20 intellectuals there is an element of truth in what they say.=20 They are dangerous people misusing a minor insight. The fake anthology is making fun of words. Words are funny. We (me too)= assign so=20 much importance to their importance.=20=20=20=20 Gotta go ...Sarah pg. 2382 http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 06:55:12 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: France's Le Clezio wins Nobel literature prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline ------------------------------ [image: AP] France's Le Clezio wins Nobel literature prize By MATT MOORE and KARL RITTER, Associated Press Writers * 6 minutes ago* STOCKHOLM, Sweden - France's Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clezio won the 2008 Nobe= l Prize in literature on Thursday for works characterized by "poetic adventur= e and sensual ecstasy" and focused on the environment, especially the desert. Le Clezio, 68, is the first French writer to win the prestigious award sinc= e Chinese-born Frenchman Gao Xingjian was honored in 2000. The decision was in line with the Swedish Academy's recent picks of Europea= n authors. Last year's prize went to Doris Lessing of Britain. The academy called Le Clezio an "author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization." Le Clezio made his breakthrough as a novelist with "Desert," in 1980, a wor= k the academy said "contains magnificent images of a lost culture in the Nort= h African desert contrasted with a depiction of Europe seen through the eyes of unwanted immigrants." That novel, which also won Le Clezio a prize from the French Academy, is considered a masterpiece. It describes the ordeal of Lalla, a woman from th= e Tuareg nomadic tribe of the Sahara Desert, as she adapts to civilization imposed by colonial France at the beginning of the 20th century. The Swedish Academy said Le Clezio from early on "stood out as an ecologically engaged author, an orientation that is accentuated with the novels 'Terra Amata,' 'The Book of Flights,' 'War' and 'The Giants.'" Le Clezio told Swedish Radio he was busy reading when a member of the academy phoned him on his wife's telephone to announce the news. "I am very touched and very emotional, it is a great honor for me," he said= . Le Clezio described himself as "born of a mix, like many people currently i= n Europe." He said while he was born in France, his father was British. He was already planning to travel to Sweden later this month to receive another award =97 the Stig Dagerman prize, which honors efforts to promote = the freedom of expression. Since Japanese writer Kenzaburo Oe won the award in 1994, the selections have had a distinctly European flavor. Since then 12 Europeans, including L= e Clezio, have won the prize. The last U.S. writer to win the prize was Toni Morrison in 1993. Last week, Academy Permanent Secretary Horace Engdahl told The Associated Press that the United States is too insular and ignorant to challenge Europ= e as the center of the literary world. The comments were met with fierce reactions from across the Atlantic, where the head of the U.S. National Boo= k Foundation offered to send Engdahl a reading list. "I was very surprised that the reaction was so violent. I don't think that what I said was that derogatory or sensational," Engdahl told AP after Thursday's prize announcement. He added that his comments had been "perhaps a bit too generalizing." Asked how he thought the choice of Le Clezio would be received in the Unite= d States, he said he had no idea. "I'm not aware that there are today any anti-French sentiments in the U.S.,= " Engdahl said. "He's not a particularly French writer if you look at him from a strictly cultural point of view. So I don't think this choice will give rise to any anti-French comments," he said. "I would be very sad if that was the case." Le Clezio has spent much of his time living in New Mexico in recent years. He has long shied away from public life, spending much of his time traveling, often in the world's various deserts. He has published several dozen books, including novels and essays. The most famous are tales of nomads, mediations on the desert and childhood memories= . He has also explored the mythologies of native Americans, who have long fascinated him. Engdahl called Le Clezio a writer of great diversity. "He has gone through many different phases of his development as a writer and has come to include other civilizations, other modes of living than the Western, in his writing," Engdahl said. Le Clezio was born in Nice in 1940 and at eight the family moved to Nigeria= , where his father had been a doctor during World War II. They returned to France in 1950. French President Nicolas Sarkozy hailed Le Clezio's win. "A child in Mauritius and Nigeria, a teenager in Nice, a nomad of the American and African deserts, Jean-Marie Le Clezio is a citizen of the world, the son of all continents and cultures," Sarkozy said. "A great traveler, he embodies the influence of France, its culture and its values i= n a globalized world." In addition to the 10 million kronor (US$1.4 million) check, Le Clezio will also receive a gold medal and be invited to give a lecture at the academy's headquarters in Stockholm's Old Town. The Nobel Prize in literature is handed out in Stockholm on Dec. 10 =97 the anniversary of Nobel's death in 1896 =97 along with the awards in medicine, chemistry, physics and economics. The Nobel Peace Prize is presented in Osl= o, Norway. ___ Associated Press writers Malin Rising and Louise Nordstrom in Stockholm, Alfred de Montesquiou in Algiers and Angela Doland in Paris contributed to this report. ___ On the Net: http://www.svenskaakademien.se http://www.nobelprize.org ------------------------------ Yahoo!- My Yahoo! - Mail *Search:* All News Yahoo! News Only News Photos Video/Audio Advanced Primary Navigation - Home - U.S - Business - World - Entertainment - Sports - Tech - Politics - Science - Health - Travel - Most Popular - Odd News - Opinion Copyright (c) 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast= , rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright (c) 2008 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Questions or Comments Privacy Policy-Terms of Service- Copyright/IP Policy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:04:21 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Grant Jenkins Subject: Oklahoma Group of Experimental Writers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) The Oklahoma Group of Experimental Writers is hosting a reading and its first meeting today, Thursday, Oct 9 at 8pm at The Collective Cafe, 3418 E. 11st in Tulsa. Featured poets include Russ Hamer, Melody Charles, and Sheila Black. Check out our page and become a member on Facebook. Grant Matthew Jenkins, Asst. Prof. Director of the Writing Program Faculty of English Language and Literature The University of Tulsa Tulsa, OK 74104 918.631.2573 grant-jenkins@utulsa.edu ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 07:20:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii jason & the argonauts; no, jason & the poesienauts.... -- Obododimma. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jason Quackenbush To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 2:56:04 AM Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) I think my point, as my thinking develops on this, is that perhaps there is a sense in which our names are not ours at all. rather they belong to the community as signifiers of us, but that use doesn't limit them from being used in other ways. names are perhaps the most public of language. wittgenstein would suggest that a use of a name is meaningful if there are public criteria by which the particular use can be determined to be used correctly or not. i'm inlcined to agree with that sort of thinking, and as such think that the correct reading of this is that these names are used en masse in a group of writer's names. it is clear from the content that none of the writers listed actually wrote this stuff. so i'm inclined to think that the meaning in this is that this is a list of writers, here are some poets they didn't write, and as such this is a use of a name that is very different from the normal sorts of uses that we think of for names, such as signing work, hailing someone, or specifying a specific person. the interesting thing here then is to ask whether the use of your or my or geraldine monk's or shakespeare's name is meaningful at all. i think it is, and am inclined to read it in the way that nick piombino mentioned and that silliman hinted at in his blog post about the topic. that is, these things function as a signifier of our communal stewardship of the language as writers, even those on the list who aren't poets, and further that there is something here in the questioning of authorship in the age of authorial identity through textual communication the likes of whcih so much of our socialization revolves around. as such it as value and meaning and is a good thing. or maybe i really ought to go back to a one fall cage match and shut the hell up. -J On Oct 9, 2008, at 6:45 AM, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > JF/Jason/whoever you are-- So does that mean my name is mine if the > only > other one I can find with first and last identical is dead (and the > only > thing on her is an obit)? Or does that mean that with my middle name > included, it's definitely my name since I'm the only one who comes > up under > it? Hurrah for given and family names with mismatched ethnic > identities > then! (I prefer, too, to be referred to in publication with my > middle name > included not for this reason of uniqueness but for the related goal of > ensuring that my initials are different from those of my brother, > my late > father, and his late father.) > > Really, my primary thought about the anthology was that it was > boring. A big > mass of dull, dull poetry sometimes mediocre and sometimes dreck; > I'd really > rather have godawful poetry that mediocre work associated with the > name that > perhaps by the wonders of idiosyncrasy I could be said to possess. The > outrage responses, however, are hilarious! > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 07:33:36 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "The artist Allan McCollum devised a=". Rest of header flushed. From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That was Raymond Queneau, not Perec. =0AThe artist Allan McCollum devised a= system for producing one drawing for every individual on earth.=0A=0A=0A= =0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: mIEKAL aND = =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 2:31:= 40 AM=0ASubject: Re: fake anthology=0A=0AWhy only 3000+ entries?=C2=A0 Pere= c at least chose a noble accomplishment=C2=A0 =0A(Hundred Thousand Billion = Poems).=C2=A0 Are at least one poem for each=C2=A0 =0Aperson on the planet = living & dead.=0A=0A~mIEKAL=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub= info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 07:43:32 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Wealth and pride are the authors of error." Lao Tzu Translated by Sam Hamill Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 ----- Original Message ---- From: Eric Dickey To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 4:03:57 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math I'm finding the relationship between this thread and the fake anthology thread peculiarly similar. Troy, I'm gonna have to call you out on this one, though, because, like Murat, I wonder if you are for real. Are you an algorithm of capitalist speak that strings together coarse rhetoric? I'm sorry, this is not a personal attack, but I sometimes wonder if neo-con, economic-terrorists should be pursued for espousing their brand of un-information (not misinformation, just information that isn't complete and is more self-serving, ie your the-wealthy-should-be-appreciated bent; I mean, could you shove your nose up there any farther? The poor should appreciate the wealthy so that the wealthy can have a population on which to regulate wealth. This teeters on hate speech, Troy. I remember a comment by the IMF (or world bank?) VP a few years back, something about how third world countries should accept waste from first world countries since they have nothing better going on anyway. I'm glad you brought up the anthropological approach, because economics is a biological science, a label most economists would resist, I'm sure. The predominant world view (think indigenous American, if it helps you) holds that when an open system is functioning properly, wealth is naturally occurring and poverty is the deviate. When an open system, (think agriculture) is functioning properly (rain, sun, soil) it is self-sustaining. As example, I don't have to do anything to my apple trees, and they provide me with a wealth of apples. However, if we get an unusual freeze that kills the blossoms, I don't get squat for apples. Another example, think buffalo - to continue my first-peoples thread - hoarding and fencing property for personal gain prevented access of animals and of people, and the mass slaughter of animals created wealth for one people, and suppressed another people, to say the least. And that was certainly not "naturally" occurring. But I suppose our arguments depend on our definitions of wealth. Yours, I suspect, is monetarily based, mine is the opposite. (What is the opposite of money?) You see, I think the more wealth one has, the more potential he/she has to impoverish others. When a wealthy person buys a yacht, for example, can we not see the teak forests in its deck, the fine silk in its sail? Those resources have more wealth potential if they are left standing. Every time we spend money that means somebody else has to go without something. But you see, I think that my money isn't really my money, it's your money. And by my holding it, I am promising that I will do something with it, not for me, but for you. I am promising a return for service or goods, for payment of debt, public or private. And furthermore, by hoarding it and accumulating mass wealth, the wealthy are preventing others from returning services or goods and living in a self-sustaining way. Biologically speaking. Even President Eisenhower understood it. He said something like, every time a bullet is fired or a warship is launched, that means people are going without food, or clothes, or roofs over their heads. Wealth causes poverty; accumulating and using it for personal gain is dangerous. I didn't even scratch the $700b bailout surface. Private profits, social debt, do you really need it explained? I believe in free markets. But the market we are living with is not a free market. It is heavily governed and regulated by the wealthiest people in our population. But these are my beliefs, I don't portend to impose. I've worked with economists, but I am not an economist. Eric --- On Tue, 10/7/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008, 5:37 PM The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you otherwise was lying to you. Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing in it is. Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Troy, You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we should tolerate it because it has existed before. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or the > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism behaved > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological at > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like free > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts in > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world is > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people than > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven everywhere > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alison Croggon > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > decline), the US and Australia. > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > our own backyard. > > A > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth is > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask instead > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. Historically > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness of > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the freest > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong central > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the U.S.S.R. > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do is > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > world. > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more harm > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps poor > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > everyone. > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > A > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 07:46:05 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin resume, th= en Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. Your hypocrisy on thi= s is ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned with "being qualified," as the = history of those who have been "qualified" does not exactly inspire confide= nce.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ismaelia= al Sadiq =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wedn= esday, October 8, 2008 8:41:15 PM=0ASubject: Re: Urgent: please vote on th= is PBS poll=0A=0ADear David, my friend,=0AI have voted using each of the se= veral email addresses I have, and have also, at the same time, forwarded it= to a Muslim network in the Middle East and Africa that includes (I think) = Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Eg= ypt, Libya, Tunesia and Algeria, and constitutes upwards of 10,000 persons.= A good percentage of those in it use generic email servers, Hotmail, Live= , Yahoo, etc., so they can all vote with alacrity and the necessary fearles= sness that they will not be discovered as non-Americans. Ha! Imagine! > = Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subje= ct: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding = by Right will win it, make mainstream news> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.ED= U> > PBS has an online > poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> A= pparently the right wing > knew about this in advance and are flooding> the= voting with YES > votes.> > The poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream > media. It> can = influence undecided voters in swing states.> > Please do > two things -- ta= kes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vote > yourself.> > Here's the > li= nk:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-435.html > > 2) Then send > this t= o every single Obama-Biden voter you know, and urge> them to vote and > pas= s it on.> > The last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think > Sara= h Palin is> qualified.> > > _______________________________________________= __________________> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile ph= one with Windows Live.> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/d= irect/01/> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is moderated & do= es not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buff= alo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A____________________________________________= _____________________=0ASee how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97= at home, work, or on the go.=0Ahttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp10200931= 82mrt/direct/01/=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is mode= rated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: <920215.33413.qm@web46211.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hurrah! There you go. The cat's meowed in the bag if not quite out. The tackle's shaking. Finally, a Palin fan is fished out from the troubled waters of Poetics... -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Troy Camplin Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:46 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin resume, then Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. Your hypocrisy on this is ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned with "being qualified," as the history of those who have been "qualified" does not exactly inspire confidence. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ismaelia al Sadiq To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:41:15 PM Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll Dear David, my friend, I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have, and have also, at the same time, forwarded it to a Muslim network in the Middle East and Africa that includes (I think) Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Libya, Tunesia and Algeria, and constitutes upwards of 10,000 persons. A good percentage of those in it use generic email servers, Hotmail, Live, Yahoo, etc., so they can all vote with alacrity and the necessary fearlessness that they will not be discovered as non-Americans. Ha! Imagine! > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding by Right will win it, make mainstream news> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > PBS has an online > poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> Apparently the right wing > knew about this in advance and are flooding> the voting with YES > votes.> > The poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream > media. It> can influence undecided voters in swing states.> > Please do > two things -- takes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vote > yourself.> > Here's the > link:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-435.html > > 2) Then send > this to every single Obama-Biden voter you know, and urge> them to vote and > pass it on.> > The last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think > Sarah Palin is> qualified.> > > _________________________________________________________________> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/> ==================================> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: jared schickling Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Troy Camplin=2C =20 The problem with talking "reality" is we never end up talking actuality. A= ctually=2C Amerika=2C surely one of the freest markets relative to the rest= of this planet (regulation and oversight look funny when considering their= sources=3B see the "lobby") is in fact the biggest polluter on this planet= . Yr correlation between free markets and cleanliness is bogus. It also s= ounds a bit religious. Fetishizing industry and the marketplace in terms o= f what matters conveniently skirts that little devil named Consumerism. =20 =20 Eddie Bernays=2C Freud's nephew=2C founder of public relations=2C friend to= no one=2C hit the nail on the head when he called democracy "the engineeri= ng of consent." In the 50s he rightly argued sales to depression survivors= with newly disposable incomes could continue to increase if advertisers ut= ilized psychoanalytic theory to promote unrestrained consumption based on t= he rights and dignity said to be existing in each repressed=2C individual l= ifestyle. In this light a "free market" seems a mere enabler=2C some devot= ee's temple. =20 Jared Schickling =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on= the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:11:21 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: <920215.33413.qm@web46211.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The idea that there is any sort of life experience that can prepare =20 one for the presidency of the united states is in itself absurd. it =20 has become a political issue because the McCain campaign taking a =20 tack from the Clinton campaign, has made the issue of "experience" a =20 question in the political dialog. While this by itself is absurd, the =20= fact that they have undercut their own argument in the selection of =20 Sarah Palin is even more so. On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:46 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin =20 > resume, then Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. =20 > Your hypocrisy on this is ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned =20 > with "being qualified," as the history of those who have been =20 > "qualified" does not exactly inspire confidence. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ismaelia al Sadiq > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:41:15 PM > Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll > > Dear David, my friend, > I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have, and =20 > have also, at the same time, forwarded it to a Muslim network in =20 > the Middle East and Africa that includes (I think) Turkey, Iran, =20 > Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, =20 > Libya, Tunesia and Algeria, and constitutes upwards of 10,000 =20 > persons. A good percentage of those in it use generic email =20 > servers, Hotmail, Live, Yahoo, etc., so they can all vote with =20 > alacrity and the necessary fearlessness that they will not be =20 > discovered as non-Americans. Ha! Imagine! > Date: Wed, 8 Oct =20 > 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: =20 > Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote =20 > flooding by Right will win it, make mainstream news> To: =20 > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > PBS has an online > poll posted =20 > asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> Apparently the right wing > =20 > knew about this in advance and are flooding> the voting with YES > =20 > votes.> > The > poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream > media. =20 > It> can influence undecided voters in swing states.> > Please do > =20 > two things -- takes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vote > =20 > yourself.> > Here's the > link:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/=20 > poll-435.html > > 2) Then send > this to every single Obama-Biden =20 > voter you know, and urge> them to vote and > pass it on.> > The =20 > last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think > Sarah Palin =20 > is> qualified.> > > =20 > _________________________________________________________________> =20 > Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with =20 > Windows Live.> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/=20 > direct/01/> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is =20 > moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub =20= > info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > _________________________________________________________________ > See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or =20= > on the go. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:05:37 -0700 Reply-To: kimberlijaye@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: kimberly jaye Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: <920215.33413.qm@web46211.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wait a minute; I'm confused...Isn't Palin un-qualified because of the what = she has said? =A0 KJ --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 10:46 AM If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin resume, th= en Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. Your hypocrisy on this i= s ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned with "being qualified," as the history of those who have been "qualified" does not exactly inspire confidence. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ismaelia al Sadiq To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:41:15 PM Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll Dear David, my friend, I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have, and have als= o, at the same time, forwarded it to a Muslim network in the Middle East and A= frica that includes (I think) Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Libya, Tunesia and Algeria, and constitutes upwards of 10,000 persons. A good percentage of those in it use generic em= ail servers, Hotmail, Live, Yahoo, etc., so they can all vote with alacrity and= the necessary fearlessness that they will not be discovered as non-Americans. = Ha!=20 Imagine! > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding by Right will win it, make mainstream news> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > PBS has an online > poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> Apparently the right wing > knew about this in advance and are flooding> the voting with YES > votes.> > The poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream > media. It> can influence undecided voters in swing states.> > Please do > two things -- takes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vote > yourself.> > Here's the > link:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-435.html > > 2) Then send > this to every single Obama-Biden voter you know, and urge> them to vote and > pass it on.> > The last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think > Sarah Palin is> qualified.> > > _________________________________________________________________> Stay up = to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the= go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:05:47 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <20081008.172716.2756.24.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Steve, your name appears in it at least once, I think, twice.=A0 Regards, T= om Savage --- On Wed, 10/8/08, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: From: steve d. dalachinsky Subject: Re: fake anthology To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 5:27 PM shit i'm not even real enough to be part of this fake anthology really hurt On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:37:43 +0800 Jason Quackenbush writes: > 3 times, actually. I think it's because JF J.F. and J F looked like =20 >=20 > different names to the cleaning algorithm. still i'll take the top =20 >=20 > representation. i think i'm the only 3peat in there. > On Oct 7, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Tracey Gagne wrote: >=20 > > You are there twice. It must be the fabulous last name! > > > > > > > > > > On 10/6/08, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > >> > >> there are several friends of mine who are lit bloggers that=20 > aren't =20 > >> poets > >> and aren't on silliman's blog roll who are also in the=20 > anthology. > >> On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:55 AM, colin herd wrote: > >> > >> The list of names HAS in part to be from silliman's blog roll =20 > >> since i am on > >>> that, i am in Issue 1, but have never had any other poetry =20 > >>> published. > >>> (which > >>> is a little funny i guess but pointless)... which means it's a =20 >=20 > >>> lazy way of > >>> doing it. why should i be in it?... > >>> > >>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 11:15 PM, Dillon Westbrook =20 > >>> >>>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, but it's pretty =20 > >>> obvious to me > >>>> that the editors (or maybe their software) wrote the intro=20 > (i.e. =20 > >>>> the > >>>> 3,785 > >>>> 'poems') and we're all currently writing the actual anthology, =20 >=20 > >>>> on this > >>>> list > >>>> and on Harriet. The e-mail/blog-comment chapter has no problems=20 > of > >>>> dubious > >>>> authorship, unless any of us besides Steve McLaughlin have been=20 > =20 > >>>> hacked in > >>>> the recent past. > >>>> > >>>> signed, > >>>> Dillon Westbrook > >>>> (not-yet-hacked-but-a-hack-nonetheless) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Oct 5, 2008, at 2:08 PM, Jim Andrews wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Does anyone have any backstory on this?: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> http://poetryfoundation.org/harriet/ > >>>>>> > >>>>> 2008/10/3785_page_pirated_poetry_antho.html > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> i see jim carpenter is one of the 'editors'. > >>>>> > >>>>> jim was at epoetry 2007 in paris. he showed us a program he=20 > is/was > >>>>> writing > >>>>> that writes poetry. what distinguished his approach was that=20 > he =20 > >>>>> was > >>>>> primarily interested in trying to get the program to write =20 > >>>>> 'original', > >>>>> interesting poetry of the poemy poem variety. the poems were =20 >=20 > >>>>> 'based' on > >>>>> other texts (used them as 'seed' material), but the algorithms=20 > =20 > >>>>> produced > >>>>> work > >>>>> that could include as much or apparently as little of the =20 > >>>>> originals as > >>>>> one > >>>>> liked. so that the result could be made to 'stylistically' =20 > >>>>> resemble the > >>>>> 'original' but otherwise not be particularly recognizable. > >>>>> > >>>>> the poem in the anthology by 'me' doesn't have obvious=20 > relation to > >>>>> anything i've written. > >>>>> > >>>>> if i recall correctly from epoetry 2007, his program was such =20 >=20 > >>>>> that you > >>>>> could feed it several poems and then it would synthesize a new=20 > one > >>>>> 'based > >>>>> on' what you fed it. > >>>>> > >>>>> the programming is obviously relatively sophisticated; jim is=20 > a > >>>>> professional programmer. and is quite deeply immersed in these=20 > =20 > >>>>> sorts of > >>>>> projects. > >>>>> > >>>>> sort of a poetry synthesizer/sequencer. > >>>>> > >>>>> i expect jim is the brains behind this project. > >>>>> > >>>>> ja > >>>>> http://vispo.com > >>>>> > >>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 > Check > >>>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >>>>> welcome.html > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 > Check > >>>> guidelines > >>>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>>> > >>>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > >>> welcome.html > >>> > >> > >> Jason Quackenbush > >> jfq@myuw.net > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >=20 > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > > > > > --=20 > > Tracey M. Gagne > > > > sundrypleasures.blogspot.com > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 >=20 > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > > welcome.html >=20 > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:04:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Gottlieb, Michael" Subject: MICHAEL GOTTLIEB AND MITCH HIGHFILL READING THIS SAT AT SEGUE/BOWERY POETRY CLUB In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MICHAEL GOTTLIEB and MITCH HIGHFILL will be reading this Saturday October 11 4:00 pm - 6:00 pm as part of the Segue Reading Series, at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, NYC. =20 Michael Gottlieb is the author of thirteen books of poetry, most recently: The Likes Of Us, published by Harry Tankoos Books in February. Other recent work includes essays on Jackson Mac Low and Proust, available at http://chax.org/eoagh/. In addition, his long essay, "Jobs Of The Poets," is available at www.jacketmagazine.com. Faux/Other will be publishing his memoir shortly. Excerpts from it can be read at mark(s) magazine (http://www.markszine.com/). Mitch Highfill is the author of Moth Light and Rebis. He recently performed parts of Moth Light accompanied by Natalia Paruz, also known as The Saw Lady. Recent work has appeared in OCHO and Critiphoria. SEGUE READING SERIES @ BOWERY POETRY CLUB=20 Curators, Oct-Nov: Christina Strong & Alan Davies =20 Made possible in part with public funds from The New York State Council on the Arts, a state agency =20 Bowery Poetry Club=20 308 Bowery, just north of Houston=20 Admission: $6=20 The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Foundation=20 For more information: www.segue.org, www.bowerypoetry.com or (212) 614-0505=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed and thanks for the replies of course! - see below - On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Catherine Daly wrote: > thanks for the questions > > I'm surprised at this. For one thing I'm never sure what "the writers of >> this work" means, especially when online work is considered. > > just because it is online doesn't mean there aren't writers, and they can't > be determined > If you look say at Jeremy Hight's work, he might have written part of it but the weather did the rest. Being online means there might not be writers, I'd think. > >> Second, if 'real people's' names weren't used, the anthology would lose its >> axis; it's about, among other things, poetics and the 'poetry world,' such >> as it is - not an attempt to create a fictitous school of writing. > > Is it? I'm not convinced, especially not by virtue of the text. > Which brings up perhaps the main point, how should the text be judged? My poem wasn't particularly good by whatever standards of poetry I might have but some of the writing is brilliant, as one might expect from generated texts. So in a way I'd argue that the texts are readerly, not writerly, if that distinction holds - they're there for the culling or skimming. What does disappear is individual intention or differentiated intention from one piece to another, which places them within the aegis, I think, yes, of the weather - although not a natural phenomenon, there's something chaotic (in the sense of chaos theory) about the results here. >> Third I'm not sure about the 'essential nature of the writtenness of >> computer programs' - why this is essential. > > It seems to me essential that computer programs are written and that > computer languages are largely English-based. I have long placed a value > this way. This leads me to say that, for instance, computer garbage on a > VAX was written by all the users of the VAX as well as the programmers and > perhaps some of the designers; in a similar fashion, I argue the anthology > was written -- more so, more so than a garbage file -- ; and then I learn > that it is a sort of super advanced gnoetry that doesn't use a deliberate > aiming perhaps? I dunno. > Well a lot of languages, experimental languages for one thing, aren't English-based, and this is changing in general - what you're talking about I think of as historic happenstance (especially with the VAX!), not intrinsic to programming. There are also a great many programs today written by programs, and while one may well trace this back to human origin, sooner or later, I think this becomes less and less relevant in time; sooner or later, programs might be seen as relatively autonomous structures in this sense. And programming for that matter is now as much a matter of 'borrowing' - modules, subroutines, etc. - as it is of 'writing' - to the extent that one might see the anthology as a metaphor for pro- gramming among other things, which makes it more interesting. I read part of it with Adam Tobin, looking for clues about the program itself - for example the types of parallel structures, for me more than the vocabulary. > >> And it doesn't spout post-human or other theory - you're making the >> connection - one might just as easily see it as the last gauge of >> romanticism. > > But it does, because I think a guy in a room wrote the thing and pretended > that 3000 people with some duplicates, non-poets, and spoofs did, to show > what? What could be more romantic than this? You've conjured up the garrett and the Lautreamontian borrowing, plagiarism, etc. And to show what? Surely this extended dialog on Poetis indicates that a lot of things are shown. > > Why on earth a 'test'? If I write something, say this, is it also a 'test'? > Is it a 'test' if you can't locate intentionality in the - what? word > choice, method of composition, thing itself? > > If a person writes it, it is tested by reading and revising; if I have a > test bed of stuff and run it through my program, that is also called a > test. > Well, there's an essential difference which was primary at the codework conference we had in W Virginia; if you make an error in a program, it's likely not to run at all and need correcting - there's a bifurcation here - if you make an error in writing or creative programming, it may well lead you on to something else. I don't like 'test' which implies results, just as 'experimental' implies a. that ALL poets aren't experimenting when writing, and b. that poems must GIVE RESULTS and pass or fail according to some sort of abstract standards. What's really at issue here, no one seems to be commenting on this, is notions of _community_ - the author list implies a community, some people think they're part of a 'poetry community,' this list is a community of sorts, and so forth. ... > > But this is the prime area of my concern; Kenneth at least proofs the > majority of his work: that involves reading of a sort. By publishing it as > poetry, at least he and / or his editor or publisher call it poetry because > they make the similie: they publish it as poetry. But here, a writer and > an editor called it poetry for the very overt signs that make it bad and > because they ascribe it to poets who call themselves poets. I've done a lot of proof-reading and one can certainly do this without reading (at least I could, but then I might not be a good proof-reader!). Not all poets call themselves poets - a minor point, but one that comes up at every conference on electronic literature or digital media I've been to. So the term might in some circumstances be problematic, as it is here - but it's this very problematic that's healthy for poetry and poetics. I'm always surprised at the conservatism of the Poetics list for example, when there are absolutely amazing things going on in digital domains, in literature and new media, that aren't really covered here. So the anthology is a crack in this facade, so to speak, a sign that things are more open than one might have thought. The anthology _depends on_ the Net and computation; if it were 'just' a print publication, it wouldn't have created a stir. > > I think harvesting names is wonderful, and a text which (you say) is one > substance is fascinating and raises a lot of interesting questions about > aesthetics, Kant, sublime of course, etc. > > I don't, but I don't care for Kant much either. > I like his sublime. - Alan > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yay! Ismaelia al Sadiq wrote: > Dear David, my friend, > I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have, and have= also, at the same time, forwarded it to a Muslim network in the Middle E= ast and Africa that includes (I think) Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon= , Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Libya, Tunesia and Algeria,= and constitutes upwards of 10,000 persons. A good percentage of those i= n it use generic email servers, Hotmail, Live, Yahoo, etc., so they can a= ll vote with alacrity and the necessary fearlessness that they will not b= e discovered as non-Americans. Ha! Imagine! > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14= :57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Urgent: please vot= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:30:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Free Markets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Entrapment is this society=92s=0A Sole activity, I whispered= =0A and Only laughter=0A can blow it to rags=0A=0A Ed Dorn, f= rom Gunslinger=0A=0A=0APaul Nelson =0A=0AGlobal Voices Radio=0ASPLAB!=0AAme= rican Sentences=0AOrganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog=0A=0AIlalqo, WA 253= .735.6328 or 888.735.6328=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----= =0AFrom: jared schickling =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.= BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 9:10:29 AM=0ASubject: Re: EXC= ITED for the math=0A=0ADear Troy Camplin,=0A=0AThe problem with talking "re= ality" is we never end up talking actuality. Actually, Amerika, surely one= of the freest markets relative to the rest of this planet (regulation and = oversight look funny when considering their sources; see the "lobby") is in= fact the biggest polluter on this planet. Yr correlation between free mar= kets and cleanliness is bogus. It also sounds a bit religious. Fetishizin= g industry and the marketplace in terms of what matters conveniently skirts= that little devil named Consumerism. =0A=0AEddie Bernays, Freud's nephew,= founder of public relations, friend to no one, hit the nail on the head wh= en he called democracy "the engineering of consent." In the 50s he rightly= argued sales to depression survivors with newly disposable incomes could c= ontinue to increase if advertisers utilized psychoanalytic theory to promot= e unrestrained consumption based on the rights and dignity said to be exist= ing in each repressed, individual lifestyle. In this light a "free market"= seems a mere enabler, some devotee's temple.=0A=0AJared Schickling=0A=0A= =0A_________________________________________________________________=0ASee = how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the go.= =0Ahttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/=0A=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all po= sts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:48:06 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Luke Schlueter Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, =20 I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that = have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a = non-specialist audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds = etc.). I would be very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works = that would fall into this category. =20 Much appreciated, Luke =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:56:14 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A few days ago I wrote a letter here re anthologies and prisons, who filling them may in some ways be analogous. And, with the use of the Internet at one's fingertips, made all the easier! That is to say, the compiling of lists of both "poets" and "suspects" is made much easier, as well as, if need, the retrieval of quite a bit of data about any of the names one has come across by whatever method. The suppying of the poems/evidences by a machine--"an anonymous source"--adds an air of mystery and confusion does it not--? For after all, there is an appeal to the vanity or the the affront to the insecurity of the poet/suspect upon reading the charges/poems laid against them. The Internet is not only a source of information, but also a megasource for the megaproduction of propaganda, disinformation, dis-translations, re-editings of entries and re workings of maps. There are anumber of groups dedicated to just such tasks, some of them open and publicly proud like CAMERA which alters any site with maps and information on Israel-Palestine to erase the Palestinian presences, towns, etc--with those CAMERA sees fit to supply. Then there a host of more "under cover" operations and operators at work also, going about steadily eating away at the structures of knowledge like so many termites eating away at the old Colonial homes of the Master or the rotting shnty towns of the "wrteched of the Earth." When studying even the antholgoies easily availble of for example ancient Greek lyric poets, or pre-Socratic thinkers, it is very difficult for the foremost of scholars to establish always with any real certainty who wrote what and when--and what is simply a poem written "after" the style and diction of the copied Master or Sappho, the Ultimate Lyric Poet, or may be a few lines "quoted" from a long lost original and included in an otherise shoddy "late Hellnistic Latin job." How much indeed, of these antholgies comes down to one as third hand quotes and glosses, and the overheard urban legnds carted about the Mediterranean by sailors conversing with the would be Herdotus' of their day? Much the same meay be said for a great many constructions in words found on the web, and so the anthology of poems attibruted arbitrarily to this or that person who is also listed as being a poet-is no surprise, just as it is no surprise how many persons have come under suspciion and harssement or arrest simply by being lanted as part of a parcel sent out over the Intenet mails. All kinds of amazing "information" can be passed along in this way,and have the utmost certitude given to it-- --or be passed off as a kind of "experiment." For example, when there was a huge argument at the FBI over some of the evidence provided by "Curveball" that led tothe War in Iraq--one of the doubters in Curveball's veracity asked a defener of his all knowing truths--show me some evidence! Where did yo find it? And the evidence turned out to have been corroborated by some found on line--To which the doubter responded--where do you think he (Curveball) found it! There are all sorts of other consequences of things found on line, whther they are faked or not--at one point there had for the second time been ciruclating a story attacking the teaching methods of some Muslim schools in Great Britain--which Leevi Lehto was mass distribtuing. When it was pointed out that these stories were fakes, and had been used previously and exposed--and were now being used again with a lsight change--Lehto responded that he thought that they might have been not true, but since he agreed with the cause for which they were being psuhed across the web, he had sent them on. In this manner, though someone might know or think they may know a poem attributed to a poet is indeed not by them, they might still pass it on or include it elsewhere as by them nonetheless. I think that these are some of the "other side" of the issues which the idea of Anthologies itself suggests in relation to prisons, arreests and the like--that is, that if one may consider how easy it is to create a genration of fake poets, or genrate an anthology of ake poems--who easy is it not also to generate a fake generation of suspects and detainees, and to create an Anthology of them in the form of a prison? here is the intro to the previous letter, with the link to it (it has illustrations with it now, too!! how marvelous! indeed is the mighty web--! that web of the "spider's strategem--") Wednesday, October 08, 2008 Poetry Anthologies &/As Prisons & Prisoners Note: Recently in the blogosphere there has been a lot of "controversy" among for the most part American poets over their inclusion or not in an Anthology of Poetry which is created by a computer program, with the names of the poets being affixed to the machine-made poems by a process that chooses from various lists of names. Some of the poets are also non-American and others still are also dead. (So far there have been no signs of any uproar coming from the last named's direction.) Since the Internet is already used to compile all sorts of lists, many of which can possibly lead to arrests, or the person whose name is being tracked being counted as a suspect of some kind, involved in anything from a shoplifting ring to massive identity fraud to "terrorism," the using of names for a poetry anthology created by amassing computer generated poems seems relatively innocuous. Innocuous, that is, unless one begins to think of anthologies themselves as another form of prison-creation, or prisons as another form of anthology making. After all, the throwing together of a seemingly "loosely associated" group of people under one rubric might seem to designate the persons named and assembled thereby as a "movement," a "trend," or even a "terrorist cadre," made up of several interlinked "sleeper cells." Even if the various "cells" are unknown to each other, by showing them to be linked in some way by the over riding theme of the Anthology, one has created of them an overall face & effect of "Terror," and "Alert," or of a new kind of poetry "that bears watching in the future." Since critics and agents often share the same goals of uncovering "secret" analogies, "hidden" symbolisms,"traces of fragments of the palimpsests of previous plots," and so forth--it seems quite possible that a critic could turn out to be an "undercover" agent--seeking for what is indeed "between the covers of the book," as, after all, the agent/critic continually reminds one, "you can't judge a book by the cover." And that person who claims to be an agent in the field working for the government might well turn out after all to be no more than just another critic desperately hunting for the next "great and sobering poetic discovery," the next "pre-teen prodigy of poesy." or "the latest previously unknown towering genius, all these years lost in the back lands, hidden among the knitting and the sheep." Whoever they are, whatever they are up to, the Internet, so rife with names and information about the names, is a regular Happy Hunting ground beyond the wildest dreams of Ernest Hemingway set loose in a Protected Wild Life preserve for those who are hot on the heels of compiling Anthologies, let alone filling prisons, or committing kidnappings for huge ransoms, or uncovering the Babylonian origins of the Sicilian Code. So here are some thoughts addressed to this topic-- to while away the time of one's sentence-- a continually postponed hearing-- where death row and publisher's row are the same place ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:12:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The U. S. Constitution says "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States." Those are the only "Qualifications" to be President of the United States. Naturally, since the Vice President has to assume the Presidency in case of the office being vacated for whatever reason, the qualifications for Vice President are the same as for President. Given those criteria, Palin is absolutely 'qualified.' What we should be asking, however, is this: "Is Sarah Palin _fit_ to be President?" ----- Original Message ----- From: "kimberly jaye" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll Wait a minute; I'm confused...Isn't Palin un-qualified because of the what she has said? KJ --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 10:46 AM If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin resume, then Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. Your hypocrisy on this is ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned with "being qualified," as the history of those who have been "qualified" does not exactly inspire confidence. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ismaelia al Sadiq To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:41:15 PM Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll Dear David, my friend, I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have, and have also, at the same time, forwarded it to a Muslim network in the Middle East and Africa that includes (I think) Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Libya, Tunesia and Algeria, and constitutes upwards of 10,000 persons. A good percentage of those in it use generic email servers, Hotmail, Live, Yahoo, etc., so they can all vote with alacrity and the necessary fearlessness that they will not be discovered as non-Americans. Ha! Imagine! > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding by Right will win it, make mainstream news> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > PBS has an online > poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> Apparently the right wing > knew about this in advance and are flooding> the voting with YES > votes.> > The poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream > media. It> can influence undecided voters in swing states.> > Please do > two things -- takes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vote > yourself.> > Here's the > link:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-435.html > > 2) Then send > this to every single Obama-Biden voter you know, and urge> them to vote and > pass it on.> > The last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think > Sarah Palin is> qualified.> > > _________________________________________________________________> Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/> ==================================> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together—at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:30:11 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Held, Holder, and Kimmelman Poetry Reading in Manhattan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Poetry at Small's Jazz Club! =20 George Held, Alan Holder, and Burt Kimmelman =20 October 25th, 5 PM (beginning with a brief open mic) =20 Smalls Jazz Club 183 West 10th Street (near Sheridan Square on 7th Avenue) NYC =20 http://www.smallsjazzclub.com/ =20 =20 (N.B. As of this mailing the schedule on the website says 7:30 but this is incorrect; the reading will be at 5.) =20 =20 =20 George Held taught for 37 years at Queens College. His poetry, fiction, = translations, essays, and book reviews have appeared in various = journals, including NOTRE DAME REVIEW, COMMONWEAL, CONNECTICUT REVIEW, 5 = AM, and on Garrison Keillor's A WRITER'S ALMANAC. A five-time Pushcart = Prize nominee, he is the editor of TOUCHED BY EROS, an anthology of = erotic verse, and the author of 13 collections of poems, including, this = past summer, THE NEWS TODAY (Cerven=E1 Barva Press) and PHASED (Poets = Wear Prada). He was also a Fulbright lecturer in Czechoslovakia for 3 = years.=20 =20 =20 Arriving relatively late at the steady practice of poetry, Alan Holder = has had poems accepted by Adirondack Review, Bent Pin Quarterly, Timber = Creek Review, Ibbetson Street, and Thorny Locust, among others. His = chapbook, OPENED: a Mourning Sequence, was published earlier this year = by Finishing Line Press. Holder taught English for forty years at = several schools: Columbia, University of Vermont, University of Southern = California, Williams, Cornell, but principally Hunter College of the = City University of New York. He is the author of four books of literary = criticism, has contributed chapters to a number of critical anthologies, = and his essays have appeared in a variety of periodicals.. For several = years, after retiring, he wrote a newspaper column on environmental = issues. =20 =20 =20 Burt Kimmelman has published five collections of poetry - Musaics = (Sputyen Duyvil Press, 1992), First Life (Jensen/Daniels Publishing, = 2000), The Pond at Cape May Point (Marsh Hawk Press, 2002), a = collaboration with the painter Fred Caruso, Somehow (Marsh Hawk Press, = 2005), and There Are Words (Dos Madres Press, 2007); his volume of poems = titled As If Free is forthcoming in 2009 (from Talisman House, = Publishers). For over a decade he was Senior Editor of Poetry New York: = A Journal of Poetry and Translation. He is a professor of English at New = Jersey Institute of Technology and the author of two book-length = literary studies: The "Winter Mind": William Bronk and American Letters = (Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1998); and, The Poetics of = Authorship in the Later Middle Ages: The Emergence of the Modern = Literary Persona (Peter Lang Publishing, 1996; paperback 1999). He also = edited The Facts on File Companion to 20th-Century American Poetry = (Facts on File, 2005). =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:11:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 In-Reply-To: <48EE3172.2000208@umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finally the prize went to someone who does lives in North America... however... French=20 novelist Jean-Marie Gustave Le Cl=E9zio http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2008/ aryanil =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:42:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since most people will vote in THAT poll (and the general election) driven by some emotional connect other than perhaps some agitprop given off by a tally win. Personally, I'm repulsed by her and by her politics, as well as what I perceive to be the roots of her politics, so, yeah, I'd be votinging with my emoticons too. Gerald S. The idea that there is any sort of life experience that can prepare one for the presidency of the united states is in itself absurd. it has become a political issue because the McCain campaign taking a tack from the Clinton campaign, has made the issue of "experience" a question in the political dialog. While this by itself is absurd, the fact that they have undercut their own argument in the selection of Sarah Palin is even more so. On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:46 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin > resume, then Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. > Your hypocrisy on this is ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned > with "being qualified," as the history of those who have been > "qualified" does not exactly inspire confidence. > > Troy Camplin > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:38:04 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: France's Le Clezio wins Nobel literature prize In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As for the comment that America's writers are too insular to deserve the No= bel Prize, I can think of two writers offhand who clearly deserve it, whate= ver the person who made these comments might think: John Ashbery and Philip= Roth.=A0 Regards, Tom Savage.=A0 P.S.: Of course there are many other Amer= ican writers who deserve the award but these two were the first to occur to= me.=A0 I've never heard of this French novelist who won it this year.=A0 T= hat doesn't mean he isn't any good.=A0 I look forward to reading something = by him, someday. --- On Thu, 10/9/08, David Chirot wrote: From: David Chirot Subject: France's Le Clezio wins Nobel literature prize To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 9:55 AM ------------------------------ [image: AP] France's Le Clezio wins Nobel literature prize By MATT MOORE and KARL RITTER, Associated Press Writers * 6 minutes ago* STOCKHOLM, Sweden - France's Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clezio won the 2008 Nobel Prize in literature on Thursday for works characterized by "poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy" and focused on the environment, especially the desert. Le Clezio, 68, is the first French writer to win the prestigious award sinc= e Chinese-born Frenchman Gao Xingjian was honored in 2000. The decision was in line with the Swedish Academy's recent picks of European authors. Last year's prize went to Doris Lessing of Britain. The academy called Le Clezio an "author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization." Le Clezio made his breakthrough as a novelist with "Desert," in 1980, a work the academy said "contains magnificent images of a lost culture in the North African desert contrasted with a depiction of Europe seen through the eyes of unwanted immigrants." That novel, which also won Le Clezio a prize from the French Academy, is considered a masterpiece. It describes the ordeal of Lalla, a woman from th= e Tuareg nomadic tribe of the Sahara Desert, as she adapts to civilization imposed by colonial France at the beginning of the 20th century. The Swedish Academy said Le Clezio from early on "stood out as an ecologically engaged author, an orientation that is accentuated with the novels 'Terra Amata,' 'The Book of Flights,' 'War' and 'The Giants.'" Le Clezio told Swedish Radio he was busy reading when a member of the academy phoned him on his wife's telephone to announce the news. "I am very touched and very emotional, it is a great honor for me," he said. Le Clezio described himself as "born of a mix, like many people currently in Europe." He said while he was born in France, his father was British. He was already planning to travel to Sweden later this month to receive another award =97 the Stig Dagerman prize, which honors efforts to promote = the freedom of expression. Since Japanese writer Kenzaburo Oe won the award in 1994, the selections have had a distinctly European flavor. Since then 12 Europeans, including L= e Clezio, have won the prize. The last U.S. writer to win the prize was Toni Morrison in 1993. Last week, Academy Permanent Secretary Horace Engdahl told The Associated Press that the United States is too insular and ignorant to challenge Europ= e as the center of the literary world. The comments were met with fierce reactions from across the Atlantic, where the head of the U.S. National Boo= k Foundation offered to send Engdahl a reading list. "I was very surprised that the reaction was so violent. I don't think that what I said was that derogatory or sensational," Engdahl told AP after Thursday's prize announcement. He added that his comments had been "perhaps a bit too generalizing." Asked how he thought the choice of Le Clezio would be received in the Unite= d States, he said he had no idea. "I'm not aware that there are today any anti-French sentiments in the U.S.," Engdahl said. "He's not a particularly French writer if you look at him from a strictly cultural point of view. So I don't think this choice will give rise to any anti-French comments," he said. "I would be very sad if that was the case." Le Clezio has spent much of his time living in New Mexico in recent years. He has long shied away from public life, spending much of his time traveling, often in the world's various deserts. He has published several dozen books, including novels and essays. The most famous are tales of nomads, mediations on the desert and childhood memories= . He has also explored the mythologies of native Americans, who have long fascinated him. Engdahl called Le Clezio a writer of great diversity. "He has gone through many different phases of his development as a writer and has come to include other civilizations, other modes of living than the Western, in his writing," Engdahl said. Le Clezio was born in Nice in 1940 and at eight the family moved to Nigeria= , where his father had been a doctor during World War II. They returned to France in 1950. French President Nicolas Sarkozy hailed Le Clezio's win. "A child in Mauritius and Nigeria, a teenager in Nice, a nomad of the American and African deserts, Jean-Marie Le Clezio is a citizen of the world, the son of all continents and cultures," Sarkozy said. "A great traveler, he embodies the influence of France, its culture and its values i= n a globalized world." In addition to the 10 million kronor (US$1.4 million) check, Le Clezio will also receive a gold medal and be invited to give a lecture at the academy's headquarters in Stockholm's Old Town. The Nobel Prize in literature is handed out in Stockholm on Dec. 10 =97 the anniversary of Nobel's death in 1896 =97 along with the awards in medicine, chemistry, physics and economics. The Nobel Peace Prize is presented in Osl= o, Norway. ___ Associated Press writers Malin Rising and Louise Nordstrom in Stockholm, Alfred de Montesquiou in Algiers and Angela Doland in Paris contributed to this report. ___ On the Net: http://www.svenskaakademien.se http://www.nobelprize.org ------------------------------ Yahoo!- My Yahoo! - Mail *Search:* All News Yahoo! News Only News Photos Video/Audio Advanced Primary Navigation - Home - U.S - Business - World - Entertainment - Sports - Tech - Politics - Science - Health - Travel - Most Popular - Odd News - Opinion Copyright (c) 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast= , rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Copyright (c) 2008 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Questions or Comments Privacy Policy-Terms of Service- Copyright/IP Policy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:46:42 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: fake anthology In-Reply-To: <62809145-2F04-45CB-8CF9-5417642710AA@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Actually, it wasn't Perec. It was Queneau. gb On Oct 8, 2008, at 6:31 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > Why only 3000+ entries? Perec at least chose a noble > accomplishment (Hundred Thousand Billion Poems). Are at least one > poem for each person on the planet living & dead. > > ~mIEKAL > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > G. Harry Bowering, Born to hit opposite-field singles. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:54:37 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 In-Reply-To: <1B511BEA66DC4BD3B25D184F7400158B@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know this writer's work.=A0 But I don't think it should matter wher= e a writer lives or is born in order to qualify for a Nobel Prize.=A0 What = matters is the quality of the work.=A0 Is it any good?=A0 Does anybody know= ?=A0 I think the last Nobel novelist I found myself reading was and is Jose= Saramago who is definitely a master.=A0 Anybody who doubts that should rea= d Blindness.=A0 The new=A0movie of that novel is also surprisingly good.=A0= =A0Regards, Tom Savage --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:11 PM Finally the prize went to someone who does lives in North America... however... French=20 novelist Jean-Marie Gustave Le Cl=E9zio http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2008/ aryanil =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:59:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, for starters, take all the names in the fake anthology. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Luke Schlueter < lschlueter@readingprograms.org> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that > have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist > audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be > very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into > this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:06:51 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: <961E0B33E9E74815B237E3A41BE9F3FB@JANUS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm happy to say I just voted in this poll.=A0 I dislike Sara Palin intense= ly and think John McCain is almost completely wrong.=A0 Therefore, voila.= =A0 I hope it makes a difference.=A0 I never get called on the phone by pol= itical pollers so it was a good chance to answer one online.=A0 Thanks to M= r. Chirot, I think, for alerting us to the existence of this poll.=A0 Regar= ds, Tom Savage --- On Thu, 10/9/08, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: From: J. Michael Mollohan Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 1:12 PM The U. S. Constitution says "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a= =20 Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this=20 Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall= =20 any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Ag= e=20 of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United= =20 States." Those are the only "Qualifications" to be President of the United States.=20 Naturally, since the Vice President has to assume the Presidency in case of= =20 the office being vacated for whatever reason, the qualifications for Vice= =20 President are the same as for President. Given those criteria, Palin is=20 absolutely 'qualified.' What we should be asking, however, is this:=20 "Is=20 Sarah Palin _fit_ to be President?" ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "kimberly jaye" To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll Wait a minute; I'm confused...Isn't Palin un-qualified because of the what=20 she has said? KJ --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Troy Camplin wrote: From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 10:46 AM If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin resume,=20 then Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. Your hypocrisy on this i= s ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned with "being qualified," as the history of those who have been "qualified" does not exactly inspire confidence. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ismaelia al Sadiq To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 8:41:15 PM Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll Dear David, my friend, I have voted using each of the several email addresses I have, and have=20 also, at the same time, forwarded it to a Muslim network in the Middle East and= =20 Africa that includes (I think) Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Palestinian territories, Egypt, Libya, Tunesia and Algeria, and constitutes upwards of 10,000 persons. A good percentage of those in it use generic=20 email servers, Hotmail, Live, Yahoo, etc., so they can all vote with alacrity and= =20 the necessary fearlessness that they will not be discovered as non-Americans.= =20 Ha! Imagine! > Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:14 -0500> From: davidbchirot@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll re Palin or advance vote flooding by Right will win it, make mainstream news> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > PBS has an online > poll posted asking if Sarah Palin is qualified.> Apparently the right wing > knew about this in advance and are flooding> the voting with YES > votes.> > The poll will be reported on PBS and picked up by mainstream > media. It> can influence undecided voters in swing states.> > Please do > two things -- takes 20 seconds.> > 1) Click on link and vote > yourself.> > Here's the > link:> > http://www.pbs.org/now/polls/poll-435.html > > 2) Then send > this to every single Obama-Biden voter you know, and urge> them to vote and > pass it on.> > The last thing we need is PBS saying their viewers think > Sarah Palin is> qualified.> > > _________________________________________________________________> Stay up= =20 to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live.> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the= =20 go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:30:06 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Luke Schlueter Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wendell Berry, an intellectual mentor of mine, would take umbrage with = my suggestion that one needs to be a specialist to engage with complex = poetry. So let me restate: "authors/works that are accessible to readers = who don't have a lot of experience in reading poetry." Will that work? =20 Luke =20 ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Luke Schlueter Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 12:48 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Hi all, I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that = have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a = non-specialist audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds = etc.). I would be very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works = that would fall into this category. Much appreciated, Luke =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Urgent: please vote on this PBS poll In-Reply-To: <003e01c92a3e$d3c3c010$b386e648@yourae066c3a9b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Has anyone google mapped Wasila, AK? Can you even actually "see" Russia? There's a grand difference, damas y caballeros, between inexperience and idiocy, and Sarah Palin has been kind enough to show us the latter. Inexperience, as Mr. Camplin stated, shouldn't keep us from the polls. You can bet my Obama vote it won't keep me... -Ryan On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Gerald Schwartz wrote: > Since most people will vote in THAT poll (and the general election) driven > by some emotional connect other than perhaps some agitprop given off by a > tally win. > Personally, I'm repulsed by her and by her politics, as well as what I > perceive to be the roots of her politics, so, yeah, I'd be votinging with > my emoticons too. > Gerald S. > > The idea that there is any sort of life experience that can prepare one > for the presidency of the united states is in itself absurd. it has become > a political issue because the McCain campaign taking a tack from the > Clinton campaign, has made the issue of "experience" a question in the > political dialog. While this by itself is absurd, the fact that they have > undercut their own argument in the selection of Sarah Palin is even more > so. > > On Oct 9, 2008, at 10:46 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > > If Obama is qualified to be President with his pathetically thin resume, >> then Palin is certainly qualified to be Vice President. Your hypocrisy on >> this is ridiculous. And I'm not even concerned with "being qualified," as >> the history of those who have been "qualified" does not exactly inspire >> confidence. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:00:31 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. A. Lee | Crane's Bill Books" Organization: Crane's Bill Books Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It reminds of Ray Johnson's rows and rows of identical bunny heads, each labeled with a different name. The arbitrary naming is the joke. >> Second, if 'real people's' names weren't used, the anthology would lose >> its >> axis; it's about, among other things, poetics and the 'poetry world,' >> such >> as it is - not an attempt to create a fictitous school of writing. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:59:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Sarah Palin denounces BlazeVOX [books] Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Sarah Palin denounces BlazeVOX [books] =20 =20 In an odd twist on the campaign trail, Gov. Sarah Palin made a viscous attack on America=B9s cultural landscape, specifically mentioning BlazeVOX [books] a Buffalo, NY based publisher, as =B3Anti-American and unpatriotic.=B2 =20 Standing before a sea of red T-shirts and homemade signs reading =B3No Communists!=B2 and =B3Palin=B9s Pitbulls,=B2 Ms. Palin on Tuesday nestled in to her Republican base. Ms. Palin struck at some of the same themes, portraying BlazeVOX [books] as a liberal poetry outlet with a =B3left-wing agenda that=B9s packaged and prettied up to look good like mainstream poetry.=B2 =20 Mentioning poets as Kent Johnson, Michael Kelleher, Anne Waldman, Ted Greenwald, and others; and identifying BlazeVOX [books] founder and publisher, Geoffrey Gatza, as the man Cheney should have shot in the face! =20 Find out why you should support BlazeVOX [books] more than ever! Check out our new catalog and buy a book =AD if only to burn! =20 =20 http://www.blazevox.org/catalog.htm =20 =20 --=20 Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza Editor & Publisher ------------------------------------- BlazeVOX [ books ] Publisher of weird little books -------------------------------------- editor@blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.blazevox.org http://www.geoffreygatza.com/ http://www.blazevox.org/blog Not So Fast Robespierre by Geoffrey Gatza http://www.lulu.com/content/1767006 NOW Available from Menendez Publishing =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:02:40 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Janet McCann Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Luke Schlueter wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Barbara Crooker, Linda Pastan, Patricia Fargnoli, Mark Doty, Edward Byrne, Richard Howard, Annie Finch. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Margaret Konkol Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Luke, I suggest Frank O'Hara---deceptively accessible---just the kind of poetry a non-specialist audience might not find on their own (i.e. Borders). Best, Margaret On 10/9/08, Luke Schlueter wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that > have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist > audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be > very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into > this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:56:16 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <829820.68024.qm@web54410.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think it would be fairly easy in the current environment for someone to jumble together 3000 pages of pro-terrorist (orgs, politics, slogans, anarchist handbook instructions for wmd, nearly-secret docs, etc.) and sign the names of 3000 artists likely to need to enter or leave the US. I think all of us know people who, over the past few years, have been scheduled to speak, or read, or perform, somewhere in the US and were not allowed into the US. This person might even do such a thing so that 3000 more articulate people start battling a bit harder to return the laws to normal. It would be easy to harvest the names of a group of academics at schools with a religious mission or at publicly-funded universities where the legislature has more direct oversight, and write something that would create job problems for them. It would be easy to publish a number of anthologies on the "wrong' side of the culture wars to create an overall impression of poets that would be untrue: these are the dark things I thought about when Geraldine mentioned them. Note they all have to do with human intent -- of a writer, say. * I don't see a reason why this particular anthology, since the "poems" are lineated, couldn't be reformatted with every poem being split into 25 lines, say, and the names also seperated, so that each one of us wrote 3000 x 25! poems. Except for Quackenbush, who'd write 9000 x 25! poems. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:10:50 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Brian Clements Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: <48EE5550.9050704@tamu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Luke Schlueter wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that h= ave significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist a= udience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be = very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into= this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke Here are a few you might try: Nada Gordon, Evelyn Reilly, Julianna Mundim, Emmy Catedral, Enid Bagnold, Richard Siken, Stephen Ratcliffe, Michael Gottlieb, Jodie Childers, Norman J. Olson, Brent Hendricks, Sean Kilpatrick, Tom McCarthy, Stacy Doris, Michael Rerick, Corrinne Clegg Hales= , Mark Decarteret, Hadewijch of Antwerp, Darren Wershler-Henry, Letitia Trent= , Debra Di Blasi, Laura Elrick, Bruna Mori, Popahna Brandes, Robert Sheppard, Diana Magallan, Kristine Danielson, Ed Higgins, Drew Gardner, Kyle Kaufman, Matthew Thorburn, Tiel Aisha Ansari, Christopher Wells, Vanessa Place, Simo= n Pettet, Grace Vajda, John Bennett, Ian Patterson, Joseph Hutchison, John Cotter, Cheryl Lawson Walker, Scott Esposito, Jason Nelson, Daniel Kane, Kimo Armitage, Alan May, J.D. Nelson, Bob Hershon, Jennifer Karmin, Kim Rosenfield, Nathan Austin, Pearl Pirie, Rosmarie Waldrop, Tara Betts, Donal= d Revell, Jim Ryals, Danuta Kean, Jeff VanderMeer, Alfredo Bonanno, Irene Latham, Michael Hennesy, Dick Higgins, John Hanson, Billy Merrell, Sam Ladkin, Jeff Ward, Debra Jenks, K. Lorraine Graham, Kenji Okuhira, Sean MacInnes, Adam Seelig, Steve Halle, David Mus, Monique Wittig, Joyelle McSweeney, Daniel E. Levenson, Luke Daly, Henry Thoreau, John Palattella, Abby Trenaman, Kristen Taylor, Vassily Kamensky, David Jhave Johnston, Gene Tanta, Cate Marvin, Alison Roth, Shad Marsh, Asher Ghaffar, Henry Gould, Justin Theroux, Susan Grimm, Bernard Wilson, Ateet Tuli, Laura Moriarty, Mark McMorris, Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle, Jeffrey Cyphers Wright, William Shakespeare, Nick Trinen, Daphne Gottlieb, Magdalena Zurawski, A.K. Arkadin= , Matthue Roth, Douglas J. Belcher, After Bitahatini, Neil Schmitz, Liz Henry= , Tom Hansen, Craig Saper, Pris Campbell, Afua-Kafi Akua, Amish Trivedi, Chri= s Hutchinson, Cath Vidler, Sarah Weinman, A.E. Stallings, Robin Blaser, Rolan= d Prevost, Mac Wellman, Steven Schroeder, Joy Garnett, Mark Lamoureux, Julie Clark, Bob Garlitz, Jeff Hamilton, Kara Dorris, Maureen Thorson, Irv Muchnick, Frank O'Hara, Robin Magowan, C. Allen Rearick, A. J. Patrick Liszkiewicz, Tony Leuzzi, Bhanu Kapil, Sage U`ilani Takehiro, Shellie Zacharia, Lorna Dee Cervantes, Camille Martin, Eliot Weinberger, David Nemeth, Edna St. Vincent Millay, Iris Smyles, Bertolt Brecht, David Forbes, Colin Herd, Sergio Bessa, Zach Wollard, Adam Ford, Claudia Keelan, Hank Sotto, Jamba Dunn, Ken Mikolowski, Jean-Jacques Poucel, Santiago B. Villafania, David Valentinovia, Robert Kaufman, Dominique Meens, Joe Elliot= , August Stramm, Justin Katko! Sandra Korchenko, Carol Peters, Lilah Hegnauer= , Brian Evenson, Wallace Stevens, Timothy Murphy, Joseph Bradshaw, Nick Courtright, Adam Chiles, James, Kane X. Faucher, David Abel, Ray Succre, Gabriel Gudding, Antonin Artaud, Mark Cunningham, Paul Fattaruso, William Saroyan, Aaron McCollough, Confucius/Ezra Pound, David Antin, Rob Mackenzie= , Ryan Eckes, Christian Peet, Peter Riley, Litsa Spathi, Anna Ahkmatova, Mark Tursi, J.D. Schraffenberger, Greg Fuchs, Sean Casey, Orpingalik, Hassan Melehy, Rosemarie Waldrop, Phillip Lund, Adam Aitken, Michael Davidson, Andrea Rexilius, William Allegrezza, Raymond Queneau, Fred Wah, Marcia Arrieta, Elizabeth Cross, Jonathan Greene, Gregory Laynor, Preston Spurlock= , Jane Sprague, Kevin Thurston, Stephen Berry, William Bronk, Claudia Rankine= , Steve Dalachinsky, Ed Sanders, Sam Rasnake, Wes Smiderle, James Belflower, Simmons B. Buntin, Dolores Dorantes, Emilie Clark, Leslie Marmon Silko, Sarah O'Brien, Jack Tricarico, Gerard Van der Luen, Frances Richard, Charli= e Bertsch, Bob Cobbing, Sabrina Calle, Steven Burt, Stephane Mallarme, Bob Marcacci, Edwin Torres, Lois Marie Harrod, Evgeny Maizel, Luc Simonic, Lawrence Durrell, Amanda Davidson, Pendergast, Gregory Orr, Lepson, Joseph Duemer, Eric Alterman, Erin M. Bertram, Leopold Sedar Senghor, Suzanne Buffam, Andy Nicholson, Edward Champion, Katy Acheson, Okey Ndibe, Jennifer Mulligan, Renee Zepeda, Alfred Kubin, Sawako Nakayasu, David Prater, Forres= t Gander, Mike Gubser, Virginia Heatter, Leslie Winer, Ed Schenk, Doug Holder= , Russell Ragsdale, Jose Manuel Velazquez, Dick Jones, Gerry Loose, Daniel J. Vaccaro, Rafael Alberti, Jeff Newberry, Igor Terentiev, Micah Robbins, Friedrich Holderlin, Arif Khan, Laurel Dodge, Ann White, Nicolas Guillen, John Lowther, Cathleen Miller, Josef Vachal, Chris Moran, Miyazawa Kenji, Robert Fitterman, Norman Mailer, Doris Shapiro, Talan Menmott, Alan Licht, John Godfrey, James Maughn, Anne Heide, Jasmine Dreame Wagner, Lina ramona Vitkauskas, Judith Goldman, Rich Murphy, Halvard Johnson, Ariel Dorfman, Ed Baker, Maryrose Larkin, Sheila E. Murphy, Rosanna Warren, Jean Cocteau, Clarence Major, Eleanor Stanford, Teresa Carmody, Kenward Elmslie, Rainer Maria Rilke, Ryan Walker, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Nava Fader, Rob Budde, Allison Cobb, Robert Roley, Alison Collins, Melissa Fondakowski, Nathan Whiting, Jess Rowan, Cid Corman, Bob Heman, Libby Rosof, Cassie Lewis, Scot= t Saner, Roberta Allen, Raymond Farr, Anne Pierson Wiese, kevin mcpherson eckhoff, Troy Lloyd, Lindsay Boldt, Andrea Baker, Meredith Quartermain, Richard Meier, Louise Mathias, Joseph Cooper, Lynn Strongin, Outlines, Suzanne Stein, Richard de Nooy, Sherry, Robert Chrysler, Ton van't Hof, Peter Cole, Michael Slosek, June Jordan, Andrew Zitka, Eve Babitz, G.C. Waldrep, Craig Santos Perez, James Sherry, Hugh, David R. Slavitt, Dino Campana, Stephen Berer, Alastair Johnston, Angela Jaeger, Javier Huerta, Je= d Birmingham, David Harrison Horton, Alan Baker, Steve Clay, Kevin Coval, Ton= y Brown, Debesh Goswami, Michael Farrell, Abigail Child, Tanya Larkin, Ron Slate, Emmanuel Hocquard, Lauren Dixon, Jan Zwicky, Andrew Joron, Jessica Wickens, Arthur Sze, David Baptiste Chirot, Steven May, Rob Cook, Ankur Saha, Eric Unger, Chris Heilman, James Purdy, Derek Henderson, James Collins, L.J. Moore, Michael McClure, D.S. Marriott, Michael Heller, Robert Mittenthal, Eileen Tabios, Aki Salmela, Lou Rowan, Jerome Seaton, Lori Lubeski, Paul Hardacre, Rus Bowden, John Wieners, Lauren Levin, Johanna Drucker, Velimir Khlebnikov, Terry Bisson, Martha Plimpton, Miklos Radnoti, Ken Kesey, Matvei Yankelevich, Seth Forrest, Maria Damon, David MacDuff, Kevin Doran, Rob Read, Kristen Gallagher, Rick Visser, Andrei Bely, Sara Crangle, Karl Klingbiel, Jackson Mac Low, Fox, Derik Badman, Paul Griffiths= , Oliver Rohe, Mark L. Lilleleht, Michelle Bautista, Monica Schley, Aaron Levy, andrew nightingale, Douglas Messerli, Pattie McCarthy, David West, Jo= n McKenzie, James Weber, Carlos Rojas, Donatella Izzo, Francois Luong, Daniel Borzutzky, Umm Zaid, Tony D'Arpino, James Tierney, Tao Lin, Rochelle Owens, Amy Friedman, Natalie Zina Walschots, Kayin Wong, Emily Sher, Deborah R. Geis, Kristen Iskandrian, Brother Tom Murphy, Jeremy Gardner, Alcoholic Poet, Chris Mansel, Keith Tuma, Chris Mansell, Rob MacDonald, Yuan Mei, Stanislaw Witkiewicz, Joshua Schuster, Glenn Bach, Maureen Owen, Richard Wink, Guy Bennett, Eric Elshtain, Reza Shirazi, Tonya Foster, Karl Kempton, Allan Gurganus, Alizon Brunning, Christopher Davis, Richard Foreman, Francois Luong, Yvonne Werkman, rob mclennan, Mark McCarthy, Bill Marsh, To= m Devaney, John Most, Nick Moudry, Jennifer Reimer, Charles Baudelaire, Gabriel Pomerand, Crane Giamo, Vernon Frazer, Mike Basinski, Oliver de la Paz, Leon Damas, Mark Ducharme, Jim Leftwich, Eliot Katz, Pat Lawrence, Jef= f Daily, Jefferson Navicky, Tom Savage, Legs McNeil, mIEKAL aND, Leevi Lehto, Allyson Clay, Cy Mathews, Dereck Clemons, Clayton Eshleman, Benjamin Parzybok, Kevin Isu, Laura Mullen, Angelo Suarez, Kate Greenstreet, Andrew Burke, Natalie Simpson, Susan Smith Nash, Peter Gizzi, Dana Goodyear, Terence Winch, Sandy McIntosh, Cris Mazza, James Thurber, Sarah O=82=C4=F4B= rien, Firoze Shakir, Elizabeth Castagna, D.J. Huppatz, David Koehn, Kyra Saari, Philip Jenks, Martin Corless-Smith, Jacques Leslie, Will Gallien, Mathew Timmons, Eric Lochridge, Buck Downs, Ian Hamilton Finlay, Leonard Michaels, Francis Raven, seflo, Nina Shope, Carson Cistulli, Jennifer Banks, Deborah Burnham, Steve Langan, Rosalva Garcia Coral, Betty Stork, Erica Van Horn, Anna Evans, Lizzie Skurnick, Skip Fox, Olde Quietude, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Jonathan Williams, Sarah Maclay, Pablo Neruda, Richard Tuttle, Fran Herndon, Cheryl Clark, Allen Itz, Derek White, Barry MacSweeney, Eben Eldridge, Sandra Ridley, Normie Salvador, Priscilla Long, Alan Gilbert, Dennis Tedlock, Steve Benson, Brian Whitener, Rene Char, Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite, Teresa Ballard, Barbara Henning, Mario Melendez, Jacques Demarcq, Harvey Bialy, Gary Norris, Kerry Shawn Keys, Dawn Pendergast, Aime= e Parkison, Michael Cooper, Chris Killen, Les Webb, Roberta Fallon, John Fillwalk, Stephen McLaughlin, Elizabeth Robinson, Bob Heffernan, Zak Smith, Nicholas Lea, Tsering Wangmo Dhompa, Dan Beachy-Quick, Ross White, Stan Mir= , Tim Atkins, Poppy Z. Brite, Dylan Hock, Kurt Vonnegut, Mez Breeze, Stephani= e Heit, J. Mason, Colleen Lookingbill, John Hall, Michelle Morgan, Alexi Parshchikov, Clemente Padin, Lisa Jarnot, Lance & Andrea Olsen, Mark Wallace, Nancy Kuhl, Xu Smith, Jorge de Lima, Hillary Lyon, Clayton Couch, Gunnar Ekelof, Alex Caldiero, Clifford Burke, Karri Kokko, Brent Goodman, Daniel Clowes, Todd Suomela, Arlene Ang, David McDuff, Bill Sherman, Ezra Mark, Kathryn Pringle, Jem Cohen, Adam Tobin, Thomas Meyer, Clifford Duffy, Anne Waldman, Nancy Shaw, Pilar Olabarria, Chris Maher, Ezra Pound, David Hilmer Rex, Levari, Jerome Sala, Ryan Collins, Alexander Jorgensen, Shouva Chattopadhyay, Linda Susan Jackson, Jonathan Mayhew, Pejk Malinovski, Michael Parker, Claude Simon, Ian Keenan, Peter O'Brien, Jeannie Hoag, Marcel Janko, Beverly Jackson, Loren Webster, Daniel Knudsen, Michael P. Steven, Rose Kelleher, Mare Mikolum, Marcel Broodthaers, Reb Livingston, Steven Lohse, Faye Smailes, Thomas Kinsella, Peter Middleton, Kurt Schwitters, Lou Suarez, Jay Millar, Paul Holman, Michael Palmer, Larry Eigner, Jean-Michel Espitallier, Charles Bernstein, Bill Allegrezza, Tenney Nathanson, Jeff Crouch, Brian Spears, Peter Makin, Lynn Crosbie, Michael Carr, Robinson Jeffers, Fanny Howe, David Vincenti, Erica Wessmann, Lydia Davis, Craig Teicher, Jorge Luiz Antonio, Matt Christie, Jean-Patrice Courtois, Gregory Pardlo, Nathaniel Tarn, Simone Fattal, Orhan Pamuk, Ofeli= a Hunt, Louise Gluck, David Pavelich, Lanny Quarles, George Seferis, Louise Bogan, Susan Minot, Star Black, Ted Stimpfle, Michael Lally, Sean Whelan, Arlo Quint, Grace Molisa, Jasmine Dream Wagner, Armand Schwerner, Anselm Parlatore, Tom Orange, Frank Kuenstler, Robin Coste Lewis, MacLaren Ross, Nick, Katey Nicosia, Geraldine Connolly, Sharanya Manivannan, Maud Newton, Kerri French, Charles Shere, Stephen Burt, Tony Fitzpatrick, Mark Peters, A= . R. Ammons, Jenny Davidson, Tom Hopkins, Laurie Price, Woody Haut, Jim Toweill, Anne Tardos, Ronald Johnson, Will Skinker, Linda Marie Walker, Dav= e Schiralli, Rachel Talentino, Christopher McVey, Jordan Davis, Chris Tonelli= , Patrick Culliton, Michael Basinski, Christina Brown, Kathleen Rooney & Elis= a Gabbert, Maria Benet, Regis Bonvicino, Richard Huelsenbeck, Julia Cohen, Ji= m Behrle, Stephanie Bolster, Timothy Liu, Donna Brook, Kristin Abraham, Marcu= s Bales, Patricia Wellingham Jones, Susie Timmons, Clayton A. Couch, Myung Mi Kim, John Litzenberg, Zoe Strauss, Jonathan Meakin, Janine Pommy Vega, John Matthew, Robert Sund, Janne Nummela, Robert Archambeau, Dodie Bellamy, Meghan Scott, Stephen Johnson, Brenda Schmidt, Lisa Flaherty, Martine Bellen, Ron Loewinsohn, Darryl Keola Cabacungan, Chris Ransick, Sean T. Hanratty, Tim Gaze, Kathleen Rooney, Tom Mandel, AnnMarie Eldon, Tom Peters= , Billy Jones, Gilbert Adair, Jim =AC=86Behrle, Peter Jay Shippy, Amanda Laughtland, Juliet Cook, Joshua Marie Wilkinson, Brian Smith, Aldo Palazzeschi, Richard Denner, Anthony Robinson, Chris Tysh, Christopher Stackhouse, Paul Muldoon, Stefania Iryne Marthakis, Ellen Orleans, Robin Reagler, Susan Maxwell, Delia Mellis, John Baker, Jack Boettcher, Lex Camena, Jeffery Bahr, Veronica Montes, Miriam Nichols, Phil Hall, Tyler Carter, Jessica Treat, Mairead Byrne, C.S. Carrier, C.L. Bledsoe, Barbara Maloutas, Peter Schjeldahl, Marc Andre Robinson, Morgan Lucas Schultdt, Sea= n Thomas Dougherty, Rebecca Hazelton, Ryan Bird, Ernst Meister, Edith Sodergran, Bronwen Tate, Joritz-Nakagawa, Sharon Mollerus, Talan Memmott, Robert Burns, Jim Dunn, Matthew Cheney, Edward Nudelman, Subhro Bandopadhyay, Tiff Dressen, Sandy Florian, Jesse Glass, Jennie Skerl, Phil Fried, Eric Gurney, Christof Scheele, Nicholas Rombes, Billy Collins, Eugenio Montale, Gautam Verma, Tyler Cobb, Kendra Malone, Tom Beckett, Vivian Vavassis, Jude MacDonald, Joanna Sondheim, Paul Naylor, Kazim Ali, Josh Corey, Patrick Donnelly and Stephen Miller, Ari Bania, Geoffrey G. O'Brien, Leonard Kress, Philippe Soupault, Steve Caratzas, Joseph Mains, William Yazbec, Standard Schaefer, Betsy Andrews, Carlo Carra, Marie Hopkins, Anna Maria Hong, Burt Kimmelman, Karen J. Weyant, Max Middle, Joan Retallack, Gil Ott, Dennis Cooper, David Matlin, Tino Gomez, B.J. Love, Helen White, John Crowley, Weldon Kees, Louis Zukofsky, David Trinidad, Andrew Peterson, Bill Seaman and Penny Florence, Heather O'Neill, Reginald Shepherd, Annie Guthrie, Ammiel Alcalay, Carton Tragedy, Alfred Corn, Barbara Smith, Jozef Imrich, Yagi Mikajo, Stephen Thomson, Mark Rudman, Jen= a Osman, Ernesto Priego, Ken Springtail, Sam Beckbessinger, Cecilia Vicuna, Behm-Steinberg, Kate Schapira, Deidre Elizabeth, Jean Lehrman, Seth Landman= , Ana Bozicevic-Bowling, Jess Mynes, Will Yackulic, Caroline Wilkinson, Maria Sabina, eldon, Richard Lighthouse, Michael Smoler, Henry Hills, Mark Marino= , Poton, Thomas O'Connell, David Henderson, Michael Cross, Maralyn Lois Polak= , Joe Brennan, Alice Cary, Erica Kaufman, Lewis Warsh, Steve Evans, David Byrne, Frank Parker, Kaz Maslanka, Jenna Cardinale, Peter Straub, EK Smith, Megan Martin, Meghan Punschke, Sherry Chandler, E. Tracy Grinnell, Tom Muir= , Jeff Davis, F. Daniel Rzicznek, Diana Magallon and Jeff Crouch, Kyle Schlesinger, Stuart Dybek, Marco Giovenale, Zach Savich, Tom Wegrzynowski, Arnie Hoffman, Rikki Ducornet, Dawn, Thomas Fink,, Christian Jensen, Andrew Philip, Dave Pollard, Miriam Burstein, Jessica Bozek, Patrick So, Joe Massey, Carmine Starnino, Evan Kennedy, Chris Vitiello, Nick Bruno, Amy Newman, Sharon Gilbert, Aaron Tieger, William Wordsworth, Eugenio Tisselli, julia doughty, Marko Niemi, Pierre Reverdy, Lytton Smith, Lee Gurga, Jed Shahar, Tim Hunt, Lee Upton, Mark Scroggins, Rachel Smith, Robert Wodzinski= , Matthew Blake, Matina Stamatakis, Robert Waxman, Jack McGuane, Bethany Ides= , Alfred Arteaga, Kat Meads, Sandra Gilbert, Carlo Parcelli, Jeff Calhoun, John Bryant, Jasper Bernes, Jeffrey Joe Nelson, Joan Houlihan, Lynn Behrendt, Jack Kerouac, Brenda Iijima, James Koller, Sun Yung Shin, Ixta Menchaca, John Barton, Piero Heliczer, Todd Colby, Awotunde Aworinde, Emma Barnes, Allison Whittenberg, Jenni Russell, Rowan Wilken, Daniela Olszewska= , Layne Russell, George Oppen, Ben Yarmolinsky, Phil Cordelli, Andrew Kozma, Harry Wilkens, Jonathan Lethem, Richard Gorecki, Jilly Dybka, Kirthi Nath, Jennifer Bredl, Paolo Buzzi, Aime Cesaire & Rene Depestre, Ruben Dario, Rachel Loden, William Bryant, hassen, Kerryn Goldsworthy, Jessamyn West, Salvador Dali, Greg Djanikian, George M Wallace, Sharon Brogan, Roger Farr, Lesley Yalen, Jessica Tillyer, Cathy Eisenhower, Noah Falck, Beka Goedde, Patrick Lovelace, Erik Anderson, Shahar Gold, Olivier Cadiot, Peter O'Leary= , Mel Nichols, Juan Felipe Herrera, Mirabai, Rob Mackenzie, Bethany Wright, Joseph Mosconi, MTC Cronin, Terrance Hayes, Bryson Newhart, Yoko Ono, Gherardo Bortolotti, Olli Sinivaara, Jim Crace, Brendan Lorber, Tracie Morris, Jeffrey Side, Brent Cunningham, Henry Miller, Christina McPhee, Mik= e Nicoloff, Ray Federman, Valerie Coulton, HL Hazuka, Ari Banias, Thomas Hummel, Nicolette Bond, J.F. Quackenbush, Julia Stein, Bill Borneman, Jon Link, Steve Dickison, Scott Helmes, Brion Gysin, Sean Burke, Laynie Brown, Hermit-Sage Tradition, Jane Dark, Scott Withiam, Lance Phillips, Michael Ford, John Olson, John Bailey, Rebecca Morgan Frank, Derek Motion, Ashby Tyler, Sarah Campbell, Andrea Strudensky, Roger Gilbert-Lecomte, Mathias Svalina, Ishle Yi Park, Dubravka Djuri=83=E1, John McHale, Grant-Lee Philli= ps, Jeremy Czerw, Richard Newman, Diana Slampyak, David McFadden, Jim McGrath, Gregory Crosby, tyler funk, Kristi Maxwell, Vladimir Zykov, Daniel Brenner, Don Mee Choi, Ted Greenwald, Meena Alexander, Sarah Mangold, Steve McCaffery, Jill Magi, Glen Bach, Hank Lazer, Stephen Brockwell, Helen Adam, Sasha Steensen, Ryan Alexander MacDonald, Vladimir Mayakovsky, Jack Morgan, Jr., Radu Dima, Larissa Szporluk, Teresia Teaiwa, Amiri Baraka, Monica Mody= , Vincent Katz, Jen Benka, Roberto Harrison, Edward Byrne, Patrick Rosal, Cheryl Townsend, Carol Novack, Clive Thompson, Mary Biddinger, Erica Lewis, Michael Robins, Mira Schor, Severo Sarduy, John Taggart, Lauren Krueger, Wanda O=82=C4=F4Connor, Peter Van Toorn, Kevin Varrone, Mark Axelrod, Erica= Svec, Erik Donald France, Daniel Green, Marilyn Hacker, Ben Wilkinson, Stephanie Young, David Hall, Joe Moffet, Ric Royer, Basil Bunting, Peter Everwine, Terryanne Chebet, Philip Messenger, Maurice Sendak, Barrett Gordon, Shonni Enelow, Hannah Weiner, Dan Vera, Kristin Berkey-Abbott, Douglas James Martin, Randall Williams, Phil Crippen, Roy Kiyooka, Anita Dolman, Chris Martin, Max Ernst, Michael Rothenberg, Adeena Karasick, D.H. Lawrence, Sean O Riordain, Anne Kaier, Simone dos Anjos, Brian McMahon, Josef Capek, Glori= a Oden, Georges Hugnet, Sekuo Sendiata, Timothy Yu, Craig Dworkin, Mary Ann Sullivan, Guillermo Juan Parra, Paul Klinger, Catherine Wagner, Angela Veronica Wong, Terence Gower, Chris Toll, Francis Picabia, David Bromige, John Estes, Kenneth Koch, John Moore Williams, harry k. stammer, Kyle Gann, Paul Guest, Carl Rakosi, Cole Porter, Ray Craig, Bob Holman, Jordan Stempleman, Gilbert Sorrentino, Larissa Shmailo, Kris Hemensley, Jennifer Manzano, Peter Culley, Dan Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Lloyd Schwartz, Peter Larkin, MaryLou Sanelli, Clare Latremouille, Karla Kelsey, Peter Magliocco, Bruce Stewart, Kyle Simonsen, Glenn Ingersoll, Teri Hoskin, Henry Louis Gates, John Mcmahon, Dan Raphael, Tanya Allen, Annie Finch, Mitch, Bill Kushner, Rochita Ruiz, Tom Gilroy, Yashodhara Raychaudhuri, Elaine Terranova, Tom Hibbard, Joel Nichols, Don Cheney, Ashraf Osman, Melanie Little, Barbara Cole, Chris Higgs, Paul van Ostaijen, Kate Hill Cantrill, George Kalamaras, Ren Powell, Steve Smith, Lloyd Mintern, Denise Duhamel, Veselovsky Pitts, G.L. Ford, Stanton, Kyle Minor, Bradford Haas, Kristy Bowen, Mingus Tourette, Anna Joy Springer, Laetitia Sonami, Sam Silva, Candace Kaucher, James Dickey, Kit Kennedy, Jill Jones, Susan Scarlata, Jac= k Kimball, Mary-Anne Breeze, Frederico Garcia Lorca, George Kalamaris, Raymon= d Hsu, Joshua Arnold, Bernadette Mayer, Calvin Bedient, Rachel Tompa, Nathan Curnow, Noel Sloboda, Doug Macpherson, Vivien Bittencourt, Steve Roggenbuck= , Jules Boykoff, Jessica Lawless, Raymond Federman, Sandra Miller, Amos Bronson Alcott, Marina Garcia-Vasquez, Mathew Timmons, Paul Killebrew, Mike Young, John Tipton, Chad Parenteau, Michelle Cross, Eric Abbott, Hayden Carruth, Dream Bitches, William James Austin, St. Teresa of Lisieux, Donald Hall, Karen Weiser, Marty Hebrank, Liberty Heise, Kyle Stich, Charles Reznikoff, Chris Felver, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Mecca Jamilah Sullivan, Henry David Thoreau, Frances Driscoll, Leonard Gontarek, Edward Smallfield, Chris McCreary, Steven Zultanski, Peter Pereira, Marthe Reed, Mackenzie Carignan, Victor Hugo, Rebecca Gopoian, Ivy Alvarez, Highfill, Harry Gilonis, Sotere Torregian, Judy Kamilhor, Justin Sirois, Suzanna Gig, Peter Seaton, Julie Carr, Mazie Louise Montgomery, Sean Reagan, Tennesee Williams= , Anne Kellas, Christopher Nealon, Joan McCracken, Malcolm Phillips, Christopher Casamassima, Andrew Steinmetz, Tom Sheehan, L.Y. Marlow, Martin Larsen, Susana Gardner, David Weinberger, Bill Cohen, Sasha Sommeil, Jill Chan, Josh Robinson, Crag Hill, William Burroughs, Ruthven Todd, Annie Proulx, Monty Reid, Simon Perchik, A.K. Scipioni, Ron Hogan, Marcel Duchamp= , Thomas Day, Bob Arnold, Rabia al Basri, Michael Andre, Raymond Foss, Ruby Mohan, Kate Schatz, Elizabeth Smith, Tom Matrullo, Carmen Racovitza, Blake Butler, Maggie O'Sullivan, Eugene Ostashevsky, Therese Halscheid, Lauren Levato, Hermann Hesse, Christian Prigent, Michael Reid Busk, Caroline Sinavaiana, Marcia Roberts, Muriel Rukeyser, Jessica Watson, sara seinberg, Garth Whelan, Peter Ramos, Harry K Stammer, Tom Jones, Arjun Chandramohan Bali, Lawrence Joseph, Lee Posna, Tim Mcnulty, Patrick James Dunagan, Lauri= e Clark, Sabbir Azam, George Green, David Maney, Jill Alexander Essbaum, Jenn= y Allan, Gary L. McDowell, Samuel Wharton, Leonard Cohen, Kyle Conner, Maxine Hong Kingston, Stephanie Strickland, Michael Schiavo, Lynne Tillman, Jesus Manuel Mena Garza, David-Baptiste Chirot, Augustine Porras, Juan J. Morales= , Tim Z. Hernandez, Diane Ward, Donald Marshall, Jack Collom, Paul Lyons, Megan Kaminski, Chris Fritton, Paul Vermeersch, Aaron Lowinger, Bob Perelman, Steve Yarbrough, J.H. Prynne, Amy King, Geoffrey Chaucer, Joel Dailey, Christopher Hennessy, Meghan O'Rourke and Cathy Park Hong, Jennifer Scappettone, David Hecker, Carl Brush, Joy Hendrickson-Turner, Leny Strobel= , John Timpane, Amanda Watson, Cate Peebles, Danny Snelson, Christopher Mulrooney, Jaime Anne Earnest, Trina Gaynon, Caleb Puckett, Weyman Chan, Patricia Dienstfrey, Evelio Rojas, Susan Tichy, Shawn McKinney, Gerald Bosacker, Joel Kuszai, Norman Lock, Eric Gelsinger, Suzanne Frischkorn, Gabor Szilasi, Shannon Smith, Peter J. Grieco, Nasra al Adawi, Anna Moschovakis, Charles Henri Ford, Nicholas Downing, Sharron Proulx-Turner, Richard Long, Majena Mafe, Timothy Kreiner, Jorge Luis Borges, Lucebert, Chuck Stebelton, John Sparrow, Victor Hernandez Cruz, Jee Leong Koh, Sophie Robinson, Carol Mirakove, Susan Stewart, Adalaide Morris, Camille Bacos, Diane Williams, Robert J. Baumann, Kristi Castro, Don Illich, Holly Anderson, C.D. Wright, Jerome McGann, Alex Gildzen, Joseph Lease, Allen, Meagan Wilson, David H. Thomas, Jane Thompson, Andrew Zawacki, Gottfried Benn, John Hyland, Jim Morrison, Lyle Daggett, Robert Duncan, Diane Lockward, Kate Daniels, Angela Woodward, Paul Vazquez, Jesse Minkert, E. Ethelbert Miller, Scott Withaim, Arthur Rimbaud, Luc Fierens, Daniel Abdal-Hayy Moore, Rackstraw Downes, Elizabeth James, Paolo Javier, Robyn Sarah, Rosemarie Crisafi, Wendy Collin Sorin, Jack Hirschman, Flynne Bracker, Rick Wiggins, Baron Wolman, Frederic Tuten, Su Carlson, Raina Leon= , C.E. Chaffin, Katrinka Moore, Lucy Anderton, Reyes Cardenas, Mei Mei Chang, Scott Malby, Alice Becker-Ho, Wassily Kandinsky, Bob Hazelton, Leonard Schwartz, Larry Smith, Dave Winer, Ivan Carswell, Genevieve Kaplan, John Findura, Shrikanth Reddy, David Horowitz, Jocelyn Grosse, C. Dale Young, Kiki Smith, Scott K. Odom, Brandon Brown, Tim Lockridge, Lauren Goodwin Slaughter, Steve Luxton, Melissa Buzzeo, Aaron Kunin, Anne Haines, William Carlos Williams, Catherine Daly, Jack Martin, Ocean, Angela Rawlings, Richard Hell, Monica de la Torre, Ruth Lepson, Trevor Calvert, Donato Mancini, Diana Adams, Miranda Mellis, Dust Congress Hackmuth, Philip Whalen= , Dan Thomas-Glass, Abigail Licad, Caroline Rothstein, Matt Briggs, Hans Arp, Patrick F. Durgin, Ashley VanDoorn, George Murray, Gerald Bruns, Richard Greenfield, Ken Rumble, John Perrault, Soleida Rios, Andrew Schelling, Robert Marshall, Russell Jaffe, Albert Wendt, Emily Brink, Jennifer Bartlett, Jeannine Hall Gailey, Mecca Sullivan, Ron Silliman, David Caddy, Marcel O'Gorman, Lucy Ives, Sarah Browning, Rob Johnson, Michael Magee, Dou= g Ireland, Tim Martin, Seth Parker, Yi Sang, Andros Montoya, Allama Prabhu, Jacob Glatshteyn, Dan Waber, Jim Goar, Michael Kelleher, Michael Peverett, Patricia Storms, Howard Junker, N. Scott Momaday, Tsuyoshi Yumoto, Peter Manson, Adam Clay, Sharon Mesmer, Sasha Frere Jones, Ronna Johnson, Murphy, Edward Williams, Bernard Hoepffner, Kareem Estefan, Lindsay Colahan, John Stiles, Ed Barrett, Steven Shaviro, Hart Crane, Thad Rutkowski, Paul Pearson, Jan Pollet, Jon Woodward, Frederick Seidel, Laurie Fuhr, Ku-ualhoa Meyer Ho'omanawanui, Peter Dale Scott, Pablo Picasso, Jeremy Halinen, Damie= n Hirst, Camille PB, Glenna Luschei, Jimmy Chen, Fairfield Porter, Douglas Coupland, Kismet Al-Hussaini, Kim Hyesoon, Sarah Vap, Carla Harryman, Louis= e Landes Levi, Kiran Desai, jUStin!katKO, Carol McCarthy, Michael Estabrook, Christian Nicholas, Lauren Russell, Biskit Roth, Ron Koertge, Benjamin Friedlander, Geoff rey Hill, Harold Abramowitz,=AC=86Allison Carter, Larry Sawyer, Joanne Underwood, James Sanders, James Wagner, Gyula Illyes, Debora= h Ager, John M. Bennett, Elizabeth Dorbad, Matthew Langley, Amira Baraka, Adrian Khactu, Aaron Smith, David Christopher LaTerre, Ann Margaret Bogle, George Evans, F.T. Marinetti, Steve Mueske, Barrett Watten, Chris Hamilton-Emery, Travis Jay Morgan, Brian Kim Stefans, Julie Doxsee, Jane Monson, Terrance Diggory, Jeremy McLeod, Len Joy, Carrie Etter, Suzan Frecon, Malia Jackson, Akilah Oliver, Carrie Katz, Michael Gizzi, Benjamin Kroh, Michael Koshkin, David McGimpsey, Paul Hegedus, Heather Christle, Anselm Berrigan, Art Durkee, Marianne Moore, Aleksei Kruchenykh, Tom Wolfe, Phil Primeau, Nona Caspers, Dominic Fox, Nate Ethier, Michelle Greenblatt, Julianna McCarthy, Davide Trame, Aaron Vidaver, Alli Warren, Kathleen Fraser, Paula Bernat Bennett, Jon Rolston, Basil King, Henry Darger, Ray Hsu, P. Inman, Ben Lyle Bedard, Dallas Wiebe, Michael Bernstein, Margaret Stawowy, Nicole Steinberg, Maged Zaher, Andrew Levy, Edwin Rodriguez, Harol= d Abramowitz, Red Pine, Kenneth Rexroth, Hong Ou, Julian Beck, Piers Hugill, Daniel Nester, Ryan Clifford Daley, Kurt Brown, Mark Halliday, Emily Abendroth, David McLean, Cara Benson, James Joyce, Lara Odell, Katia Kapovich, Arielle Greenberg, Tony Lopez, Charles Bukowski, Laura Moore, Brian Howe, Juana de Ibarbourou, Barry Schwabsky, Susan Briante, Clayton Eschelman, David Hadbawnik, Brett Evans, Susie Bright, Ted Berrigan, Tony Green, Gary Barwin, Alice Notley, Amy Unsworth, Bryan Coffelt, Else von Freytag-Loringhoven, Samantha Barrow, Henry Longfellow, Max Jacob, Renee Gladman, Susan Denning, Matt Reiter, Lee Friedlander, Lars Palm, Nick Carbo= , Peter Fox, Robert Wexelblatt, Christina Strong, Sophie Read, Jami Macarty, Breyten Breytenbach, Lisa Forrest, Regina Derieva, Sarah Dowling, Phong Bui= , Christopher Sorrentino, Lee Ann Brown, Laura Goldstein, David Jones, Fritz Ward, Alexandra Tolstoy, Chris Abani, Jennifer Gravely, Alicia Rabins, Chri= s Funkhouser, shishir gupta, Clark Coolidge, Ann E. Michael, John Amen, Joann= a Fuhrman, Sueyeun Juliette Lee, Chris Stackhouse, Nico Vassilakis, Trevor Maddock, Lucian Blaga, Kirsten Kaschock, Allen Taylor, Robert Hass, Meghan O'Rourke, Marcus McCann, Emmett Williams, Del Ray Cross, Mimi Gross, Jean Valentine, Rachel Dacus, Piu Roy, T. F. Rice, Sarah Fran Wisby, Dana Ward, Chinua Achebe, Jonkil Dies, Michael Fix, Bill Dunlap, Steven Waling, Alan Davies, Jill Stengel, Weldon Hunter, David Hickman, Wilson Lobko, Duane Locke, Surya Parekh, James Franklin, Mark Hoover, Peter Quartermain, Gary McDowell, Michael Fried, Carl Sandburg, C.P. Cavafy, David Alexander Davies= , Tama Janowitz, Billy Gomberg, Stephen Potter, Jan Beatty, Anna Fulford, Hagiwara Sakutaro, Nicole Brossard, Garth Graeper, K.S. Ernst, Abbey Baker, Alena Hairston, Mary Kasimor, Esa Makijarvi, Sam Heldman, Brian Strang, Donald McGrath, Kevin Davies, Rochelle Ratner, Blaise Cendrars, Elizabeth Swados, Carolyn Guinzio, Janet Mason, Bernadette Geyer, Tom Raworth, Jay Hopler, Allen Ginsberg, Christine Hamm, Davis Schneiderman, DJ Spooky, E. B= . Bortz, Michael Wells, Virginie Poitrasson, Nancy M. Grace, Bob Perlman, Rob Fitterman, John Zuern, Catherine Theis, Patti Smith, Pat Nolan, Martin Marriott, Matina L. Stamatakis, Alixandra Bamford, Loretta Clodfelter, Emma Bolden, Laura Wetherington, Ralph Steadman, Osip Mandelstam, Derek Beaulieu= , Corrine Fitzpatrick, W.S. Merwin, Joseph Ross, John Latta, Brandi Homan, Jackie Sheeler, Oscar Bermeo, Todd Swift, Gabe Gudding, Robert Creeley, Bet= h Lifson, Jerry Gordon, Kristen Yawitz, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Yuri Hospodar, Jake Adam York, Edwin Denby, Andrei Codrescu, Ralph-Michael Chiaia, Lee Herrick, Skip, Annie Dillard, Amber Reed, Eleni Sikelianos, Bramhall, Gina Myers, Kate Simon, Matthew Muldar, A.D. Thomas, Countee Cullen, Brenda Connor-Bey, Shanxing Wang, Sara Jaffe, Michael Nicholoff, Simon Ortiz, Laur= a Heidy, Valerie Loveland, Lori Emerson, Edward Field, Richard Barrett, Patricia Tomaszek, Brian Salchert, F. James Hartnell, Lorine Niedecker, Cherilyn Ferroggiaro, Farid Matuk, Robert Frost, James Hoch, Nadia Nurhussein, Ahmed Thomas, Grant Miller, Anna L. Conti, Yuko Otomo, Aharon Shabtai, Albert Goldbarth, Charlotte Perkins Gilman, Dan Richert, Rachel Tzvia Back, Jerrold Shiroma, Ross Priddle, Dan Coffey, Scott Glassman, Jessica Crispin, Oren Slor, Murat Nemet-Nejat, Juliet Wilson, Charles Jensen, Eckhard Gerdes, Sarah Menefee, Dan Visel, Katie Degentesh, Brian Foley, Ravi Shankar, St. Johnnie Walker, Seth Abramson, Language Hat, Jean Vengua, Mytili Jagannathan, Andrew Phillip Tipton, Jennifer Firestone, Keij= i Minato, William Fuller, David Giannini, Cherryl Floyd-Miller, Nick-e Melville, Adam Fieled, Rod McKuen, Niels Hav, Eli Goldblatt, Michelle Bitting, Here Comes Everybody, Owen Smith, Bill Wunder, Paul Hunter, Gregor= y Vincent St Thomasino, Marjorie Perloff, Rigoberto Gonzalez, Christy Church, Basho, Ryan Downey, R.J. Anderson, Vic Monchego, Paul Gacioch, Robert Bly, David Berridge, Sam Pink, Joshua Edwards, Terry Teachout, Andre Breton & Philippe Soupault, Norman Finkelstein, Else Lasker-Schuler, Louis Aragon, Rachel Phillips, Christine Surka, Joe Fletcher, John Eberhart, Michele Belluomini, Yusef Komunyakaa, Sean Bonney, William Neil Scott, Cecilia Corrigan, Saleh Badrah, Noah Eli Gordon, Rita Dove, Carol Stetser, Marjorie Welish, Zachary C. Bush, r. a. washington, Christian Bok, Eireene Nealand, Benjamin Peret, Niall Lucy, Brandon Downing, Geoff Bouvier, Natalie Lyalin, Joshua Clover, Irving Weiss, Marco Alexandre Oliveira, Georges Perec, Patrick Dillon, Nathan Ladd, Marina Tsvetayeva, Chris Kerr, Daneen Wardrop, Ron Suskind, Philip Messinger, Denise Siegel, Justin Katko, Taylor Graham, Alexis Rotella, Scoplaw, Samuel Amadon, Michelle Detorie, Dr. Niama L. Williams, Jim Cory, Sarah Sarai, Theodore Worozbyt, David Graham, Judith Skillman, Ben Doyle, LaTasha N. Nevada Diggs, Jim Andrews, Rita Degli Esposti, Cecco Angiolieri, G.M. Palmer, Heidi Lynn Staples, Jay Robinson, Mendi Obadike, Felicia Shenker, Mary di Michele, Logan Esdale, Evelyn Hampton, Mary Kasimor, Ben Friedlander, Chris Stroffolino, Ellen Cardona, Christa Forster, Sean Serrell, Paul Dutton, Bernard Henrie, Sven Laasko, Stephen Morrissey, Bruce Covey, Harvey Goldner, Janwillem Vandewetering, John Ashbery, Faye Driscoll, Michael Sikkema, Davide Baptiste Chirot, Erik Ehn, Octavio Paz, Ben Hamper, Sumaila Isah Umaisha, Dan Machlin, Gary Parrish, Kevin Killian, Chinwe Azubuike, Liz Murray, Malcolm Davidson, Aryanil Mukhopadhyay, Natalie Bennett, Nick Bacon, Soledad De Costa, Harvey Shapiro, Jon-Patrick Fadely, Cooper, Philip Trussell, Rona Fernandez, Jennifer Hill-Kaucher, Richard O'Russa, Paul Eluard, Asa Boxer, J.R. Foley, Guillaume Apollinaire, Maxine Chernoff, Angela Papala, Chris Mann, Robert Grenier, Stephen Baraban, William Garvin,, John Aragon-Chavez, Langston Hughes, Chella Courington, Amanda Auchter, David Micah Greenberg, Jane, David Shapiro, Jay Cola, Maria Fama, Laurie Duggan, John Shields, Joanne Kyger, Tristan Tzaras, Patricia Peterson, Roger Snell, Elisa Gabbert, Travi= s Nichols, Bruce Andrews, Christopher=AC=86Marlowe, Melanie Miller, Amy Gerst= ler, Bill Griffiths, Al Filreis, Josh Hanson, Edward Pettit, Avery Burns,Megan Breiseth, Kevin Opstedal, Amber Nelson, Mike O'Connor, Wayne Koestenbaum, Allan Revich, Will Esposito, Thomas McEvilley, Steve Bradbury, Bernadine Mellis, Jane Joritz-Nakagawa, Charles Alexander, Sharon (Wren) Rogers, Ida Acton, George Bowering, Rachel DuPlessis, Patrick Durgin, Cathi Murphy, Stephen Crane, Hildegard of Bingen, Rene Daumal, Roberta Beary, Lina Vitkauskas, Nick Bredie, Honor Moore, Clay Banes, Catriona Strang, Lars Haugen, Catherine Walsh, Lauren Ireland, James Schuyler, Elias Lonnrot, T.S= . Eliot, Uda Kiyoko, David Lawton, Vitezslav Nezval, Leslie Scalapino, Sparrow, Laura Sims, Christine Stewart, Marci Nelligan, Richard Owens, Stev= e Dolph, Joel Chace, Drew Milne, Jules Feiffer, Susan M. Schultz, Fernando Pessoa, Roger Mitchell, Carrie Hunter, Tom Clark, Don Share, Terese Svoboda= , John Bloomberg-Rissman, Lynn Xu, Mike Snider, Shafer Hall, Paul Auster, Hermann Ungar, Raymond Wachter, Arielle Guy, Joe Brainard, Steve Klepetar, Scott David Herman, Shann Palmer, Marton Koppany, Todd Carlstrom and The Clamour, William Corbett, Christopher Harter, Nick Montfort, Paul Foster Johnson, William Freind, Gary Sauer-Thompson, Scott Keeney, Barbara Claire Freeman, Steven Berlin Johnson, Cecilia Borromeo, Sally Greenhouse, Michael Crake, G. Ribemont-Dessaignes, Jessi Lee, John Peck, Beatrix Potter, Matthe= w Burkett, Michael Leong, H.D., Lisanne Thompson, Jane Nakagawa, Sandra Simonds, Gillian McCain, Stephen Kirbach, Stephen Vincent, J.P. Donleavy, Anna Kavan, Birdie Jaworski, Chall Gray, Robyn Art, Thomas Fink, David Meltzer, Adolf Wolfli, Helen Bridwell, Elizabeth Switaj, Geoffrey Gatza, Ji= m Warner, John Keats, Logan Ryan Smith, Ryan Fitzpatrick, William Michaelian, Jay Snodgrass, George Held, Brooks Johnson, Julie Dill, St. Teresa of Avila= , Alan Sondheim, Robert Kelly, Ted Burke, Brandon Barr, Donna Strickland, Diane di Prima, Alan Michael Parker, Jefferson Toal, Geoff Hlibchuk, Kit Robinson, Christian Nagler, William Blake, J.P. Craig, Berenice Dunford, Michael Harris, JF Quackenbush, Helen Losse, Matt Mullins, Caterina Fake, Matthew Siegel, Julie Patton, Siel, Kristine Leja, Aryanil Mukherjee, Nathaniel Siegel, Kevin Connolly, Philip Levine, Hilda Doolittle (H.D.), Michael Peters, Roger Singer, Carol Jenkins, Gabriela =AC=86Erandi Rico, Cr= aig Perez, AE Reiff, Gelett Burgess, Thurston Moore, Sam Byfield, Angela Vogel, Bruce Weber, Steve Tills, Mary Askin-Jencsik, Endre Farkas, Tony Trigilio, Angela Carr, Slater Brown, Toby Olson, K.Silem Mohammad, Elizabeth Bishop, Andrea Zemel, Sean Hill, Ilya Bernstein, Neil Gaiman, Paul Valery, Jaap Blonk, Kim Addonizio, David Thornbrugh, Bern Porter, Megan Milks, Cedar Sigo, Ted Kooser, Miia Toivio, Alena Hairston/elen gebreab, Unica Zuern, Peter Cook, Mike Hauser, Julia Bloch, Charles Stross, Shin Yu Pai, Mikey Golightly, Zhang Er, Paula Grenside, Richard Deming, Linda Russo, Nadia Halim, Geoffrey Hendricks, Kathy Lou Schultz, Stephen Cope, David Hernandez= , Cole Swensen, Bill Walsh, Pirooz M. Kalayeh, Mara Vahratian, Ange Mlinko, Afroza Soma, Rupert Mallin, The Leader, Etel Adnan, Jennifer Cooke, Mark Granier, Lamont Steptoe, Amina Cain, Geof Huth, Patrick Frank, Giuseppe Ungaretti, Megan Volpert, Charlotte Runcie, Susan Howe, Gene Justice, Matthew Lafferty, Patrick Kurp, Barbara Jane Reyes, Iris Jamahl Dunkle, Amy L. Sargent, Nathalie Stephens, Andrew Johnston, Prabhakar Vasan, Nathaniel Mackey, Abhijit Mitra, Ben Mazer, Thomas Fucaloro, Dr. Jacob Edmond, Yu Jian, Ted Pearson, Linh Dinh, Stephen Nelson, Kenneth Patchen, Robert von Hallberg, Andrew Hughes, Chris Gullo, Shanna Compton, May Pang, Cristiana Baik, Allen Mozek, Fielding Dawson, Stephen Rosenthal, Stefan Brecht, Donal= d Justice, Stan Apps, Shelley Powers, Stephen Vincent Benet, Maya Angelou, Wade Fletcher, Juliana Leslie, Anny Ballardini, John Yau, Bob Kerr, Michael Helsem, Charles Belbin, Jane Jortiz-Nakagawa, John Tyson/Kelly Conway, Teresa K. Miller, Emily XYZ, Jeff Harrison, John P. McNamee, Michelle Taransky, Gertrude Stein, Jen Welch, Doug Hofstadter, Edgar Lee Masters, Andrey Bely, sTEVEN p. rOGGENBUCK, Ed Dorn, Gary Sullivan, Greg Perry, Susa= n Allspaw Pomeroy, Jim Kober, Bobby Byrd, John Sullivan, Charles Johnson, Joh= n Byrum, Charles Simic, Baron Wormser, Scott Pierce, Ada Limon, Kris Waldherr= , Tom O=82=C4=F4Connor, Christina Mengert, Danielle Pafunda, Gary Lutz, David Christensen, Anyssa Kim, Joshua Trott, Zachary Schomburg, Christopher Salerno, Christophe Casamassima, Emily Critchley, Dorothea Lasky, Chris Glomski, Matt Shears, Damian Weber, Justin Marks, Brooke Kaye, Frank Etienne, Judith Jordan, Sam Dillon, Bill Knott, Mara Leigh, Anselem Berrigan, Jeff Bacon, Clifford Odets, JeffreyJoe Nelson, Della Watson, Christiana Langenberg, Robert Peake, cris cheek, Morris Cox, Richard Kostelanetz, Wanda Phipps, Hugo Ball, Kristin Prevallet, Norman Weinstein, Lacey Hunter, Gerald Hausman, Rachel Oliver, Ray McNiece, Bill Dorn, Catullus, Monique Trottier, Joshua Ware, e.e. cummings, Garrett Hongo, Bill Lavender, John Cleary, Sharon Harris, Divya Victor, Jack Spicer, Kate Armstrong, Karl Young, Chad Sweeney, David Solway, Wanda O'Connor, Mahmoud Darwish, Joanne Tracy, Sheila, Amanda Cook, Hugh Nissensen, Sean M. Dalpiaz= , Edna St. Vincent, Caroline Bergvall, Lawrence Giffin, Rob Halpern, Dana Gioia, Daniel Bradley, David Kaufmann, Robert Lowell, kari edwards, Rosanna Lee, Allen Fisher, Stacy Szymaszek, Matt Theado, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Billy Mills, Andy Gricevich, The Philly Sound, Ruel S. De Vera, Trudi West, Danie= l C. Remein, Hillary Gravendyk, Mary Burger, Insani Kamil, Guillermo Parra, Ryan Daley, Jessica Schneider, Carol Novack : Playpoem MP3, Jesse Ferguson, Mark Bernstein, KB Jones, Laura Marks, Kent Freeman, Sara Blakeman, Rodrigo Toscano, Sabyasachi Nag, Budd Parr, Peggy Willis Lyles, Keston Sutherland, Simon DeDeo, Marcus Slease, Emily Crocker, Donald Illich, John Sakkis, Andrew Sage, Joseph Harrington, Adrienne Rich, Tad Richards, Mick Rock, Sabina Murray, Michael Friedman, J.V. Foix, Michael McClintock, Dennis Nurkse, Andrew Shields, Susan Bee, Jacques Gaffarel, Paul Rigolle, William Keckler, Evan J. Peterson, Geoffrey Demarquet, Ariana Reines, Richard Wilbur, Kim Chinquee, Jerome Rothenberg, Laura Carter, Mark Strand, Nichola= s Manning, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Donna Stonecipher, Girish Shambu, Gerald Schwartz, Catherine Taylor, Rachel Levitsky, Michelle Tupko, Chris Corrigan= , Jim McKay, Joel Craig, Jacqueline Risset, Marcus Civin, Melvin Tolson, Lanc= e Anderson, Sampson Starkweather, Peter Carey, Chris Murray, Dorianne Laux, Fiona Templeton, Kimberly Lyons, Claudia Carlson, Aaron Belz, Bill Zavatsky= , Adam Strauss, Curtis Gale Weeks, Jeremiah Bowen, Bill Piety, Jane Hirshfield, mark s kuhar, Brendan Kreitler, Kim Bernstein, Frances Kruk, Margaret Ronda, Chris Piuma, Gina Franco, Anne Boyer, Claire McMahon, Jason Zuzga, Sharon Lynn Osmond, Pirooz Kalayeh, Robert Calero, Laura Jaramillo, Bryan Newbury, Steve Schroeder, St. Catherine of Siena, Anna Akhmatova, Edith Sitwell, Eduardo C. Corral, Megan Burns, Dan Hoy, Walt Whitman, Nic Sebastian, Elizabeth Treadwell, John Phillips, Michael Haeflinger, Karen, C Mehrl Bennett, Michael Hays Sanchez, Henry Edwards, Jeremy James Thompson, Jeffrey Ethan, Lisa Lorenz, Sukhdev Sandhu, Norma Cole, Courtney Rydel, Nin= a Svenne, Robert Zaller, Kirby Olson, Frank Wilson, Changming Yuan, Justin Audia, Janet Holmes, Federico Garcia Lorca, Jon Christensen, C.J. Martin, Matt Rasmussen, Norman Fischer, Bill Day, Mervyn Peake, Yvonne Jacquette, Nathan Logan, Urdu Poetry, Tony Towle, Leslie Kaplan, Philip Nikolayev, Sarah Gridley, Naomi Shihab Nye, Stephen Paul Miller, Mark Van Doren, Bonni= e Jean Michalski, T.R. Wang, Eric Rosenfield, Mark Woods, R. Nemo Hill, Cynthia Lawson, Harry Rutherford, Deborah Patillo, Mark Bibbins, Novica Tadic, Hank O'Neal, Denise Low, Caroline Whitbeck, Hugh Behm-Steinberg, Serena Jost, Elizabeth Marie Young, Reg E. Gaines, Cole Swenson, Kevin Kilroy, Kaia Sand, Harryette Mullen, Charles Deemer, Alan Tucker, Eileen Myles, Meg Foulkes, Martha Ronk, Gil Fagian, Nick Piombino, Betsy Fagin, Anne Germanacos, Alex Cumberbatch, Kenneth Goldsmith, Debby Florence, Bin Ramke, Kariann Burleson, Amy Berkowitz, Liz Waldner, T.A. Noonan, Steven Karl, Francis Ponge, Angela Genusa, F.A. Nettelbeck, Becca Klaver, Andrew Koszewski, Chelsea Hotel, J.P. Rangaswami, Guile Canencia, Carol Snow, Alysha Wood, Jen Hofer, Greg Mulcahy, Lynne Dreyer, Andrew Feindt, Carlos Drummond de Andrade, Susanna Kittredge, Jason Fraley, Nicholas Messenger, Raymond Filip, Mitch Highfill, Ian Tyson, Lisa Fishman, Gloria Frym, St. John Perse, Robin Purves, Peter Davis, Alison Knowles, Russell Edson, Colli= n Kelley, Nashi, Jim Dine, Marie Ponsot, Joseph Ceravolo, Jorie Graham, Barbara Guest, Onishi Yasuyo, Matthew Henriksen, Kent Johnson, Eric Bogosian, Craig Shaffer, Hoa Nguyen, Zoltv=B0n Homv=B0lyos, Marcella Durand= , Afaa Michael Weaver, CAConrad, Eddie Watkins, Jeanne Marie Beaumont, Beth Joselow, David A. Kirschenbaum, Brandon Shimoda, Richard Taylor, H.T. Harrison, Wolfi Landstreicher, Robert Wilson, Andrew Topel, Juliana Spahr, John Levy, Stuart Ross, William Jay Smith, Jane Holland, Martin Edmond, Aldon Lynn Nielsen, Nikolai Gumilov, Billy Jno Hope, David Patton, Brian VanRemmen, Didi Menendez, Nico Alvarado-Greenwood, Danielle Pafunda, Pam Brown, Alexander Pope, Loss Pequeno Glazier, Jordan Scott, Will Edmiston, Robert Allen, Carly Sachs, Rick Burkhardt, Tisa Bryant, Alison Shaffer, Peter Norman, Roger Dean, Justin Evans, Jan Manzwotz, Don Wentworth, Tim Carmody, Guenter Grass, Ricardo Bracho, Erica Hunt, Robert Service, Katherine Hastings, James Finnegan, Elaine Equi, Clancy Ratliff, Mark Tardi= , ee miller, Kara Hearn, Dax Bayard-Murray, Chris Kraus, Marita Dachsel, Redell Olsen, MaryAnn McCarra-Fitzpatrick, Tom Leonard, Wendy Wisner, Jean Roelke, Laura Sells, Donna Kuhn, Wen Yiduo, Erika Mikkalo, Tristan Tzara, Evie Shockley, Sarah Louise Parry, John Dos Passos, Doc Reese, Bob Dylan, Jennifer Montgomery, Lisa Samuels, Nin Andrews, Susan Gevirtz, Karen Mac Cormack, Roger Pao, Wang Ping, Samuel R. Delany, Andy Clausen, Barry Schawbsky, Mary Oliver, Deborah Meadows, Eve Rifkah, Reed Altemus, Alexei Remizov, Christopher Warrington, Bennett/Baron, Bill White, Franco Beltrametti, Joseph Massey, Stephen Mitchelmore, Jason Gray, Rod Smith, Tommi Avicolli Mecca, Richard Bank, Lorenzo Thomas, Matt=AC=86Hart, Eric Weiskott, Benito Vergara, J.D. Mitchell-Lumsden, Gerard Sarnat, January O'Neill, Miles Budimir, Christopher Kelen, Julie Carter, Tim Peterson, Rust= y Morrison, Jay Rosevear, Jeremy Bushnell, Tomas S. Butkus, Katoh Ikuya, Lin Kelsey, Joan Larkin, Wystan Curnow, Alessandro Porco, Brian Seabolt, Summi Kaipa, Elizabeth Zechel, Thomas Lowe Taylor, Derek Walcott, Carla Milo, Nelly Sachs, Pattie Cowell, Mark Young, Sam Witt, Jed Rasula, Elizabeth Willis, Pamela Lawton, Sandra Seekins, Dave Lovely, Christopher Sindt, Jennifer Rogers, Ben Lerner, Richard Johnny John, Denton Welch, Andre Breton, Peli Grietzer, Erik Sapin, Jonathan Doherty, Michaela Cooper, Cathy Park Hong, Jake Berry, Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, Julie Choffel, Alan d= e Niro, Katie Cappello, F.J. Bergmann, Robert Doto, Zackary Sholem Berger, Nina Alvarez, Katie Haegele, Elizabeth Block, Theo van Doesburg, Jon Frankel, Andrew Lundwall, Lily Brown, Ken Belford, Lisa Robertson, Chris Pusateri, Patrick Chapman, David Daniels, Maurice Blanchot, Georg Trakl, Frank Simone, Tony Barnstone, Thomas A. Clark, John Tranter, Dale Smith, James Tate, Joel Lewis, James Schiller, Dylan Kinnett, Richard Gilbert, George Economou, Tony Trehy, Tammy Ho Lai-Ming, Ophelia Mourne, Harlan Erskine, Melissa Benham, Kahlil Gibran, Jen Tynes, Hannah Craig, A.M. Correa, Katie Acheson, Nazim Hikmet, Brian Lucas, Louis Cabri, Maggie Dubris, Richard Bank, Alan Loney, Stephanie Countiss Emens, Erin Pringle, Anthony Metivier, Marie Buck, Zachary Chartkoff, Jan Oskar Hansen, Michael Jarrett, James Cook, Philip Metres, Jon Paul Fiorentino, Vachel Lindsay, Michael Scharf, o. hunt, Ann M. Fine, Alfred Jarry, John Wood, Robert Desnos, Michael Gause, Danielle Dutton, Jonathan Jones, Eric Mottram, Mary Jo Bang, John Deming, D. Antwan Stewart, Hugh MacDiarmid, Rob, Eleanor Wilner, Teresa Nielsen Hayden, Scott Hartwich, Four Horsemen, Gregory Betts= , Bill Berkson, Laurel Ransom, George Schneeman, Kristy Odelius, Lisa Cohen, Sina Queyras, Eric Baus, Angela Vasquez-Giroux, David Miller, MaryAnn McCarra Fitzpatrick, D.A. Powell, Julia Story, Andrea Lawlor, Jane Falk, Matthew G. Kirschenbaum, Ellen Baxt, Gisele Prassinos, Ruth Taylor, Laura Harper, artie gold, Jeni Olin, Sergei Gandlevsky, Lila Zemborain, Tony Tost= , Juan Jose Flores, Brian Mihok, Tan Lin, Sarojini Sahoo, Paul Siegell, Nicol= e Mauro, Caroline Conway, Merrill Gillfillan, Geoffrey, Philip Rowland, Jonathan Evison, Ira Joel Haber, Melissa Pakalinsky, Susan Kaiser Greenland= , Daniel Bailey, Jenny Boully, Djuna Barnes, David Wolach, Nick Twemlow, Rodney Koeneke, Cheryl Snell, Jennifer K. Dick, Reggie Harris, Peter Ganickz, Sheila Murphy, Aimee Nezhukumatathil, Greg Rappleye, Alasdair Gray= , Len Shneyder, Zack Linmark, John Seed, Paul Ford, Rachel Mallino, Jan Bindas-Tenney, Tim Botta, The Pines, Ecce Mulier, Kenneth Goldsmith, Daniel Pritchard, R. Zamora Linmark, Karen Wagner, Camille Roy, Steven Gould Axelrod, Vassilis Zambaras, James Bow, Steve Roberts, Ron Padgett, Jason Labbe, Donora Hillard, Larry Kearney, Kristen Orser, Ed Ruscha, Louise Waller, Sherri Wood, Miriam Jones, Steven Moore, Robert Hershon, Patry Francis, Dave Cook, Sara Veglahn, Alfred Leslie, Henri Michaux, C.K. Williams, Doc Searls, Lars Amund Vaage, Rae Armantrout, Rodrigo Flores, Allen Bramhall, Rigoberto Gonzales and Katha Pollitt, Anatol Stern, Sina Fazelpour, Sarith Peou, Harold Jaffe, L.L. De Mars, Peggy Kelley, Sara Marcus, David Applegate, Lisa Janssen, Jim Moore, Edmond Jabes, Ruth, Wei Ying-Wu, India Radfar, Matthew Cooperman, David Dowker, Laird Hunt, Mina Loy, Erin Bertram, Will Alexander, J. F. Quackenbush, John Gallaher, Robert Ashley, Benjamin Paloff, Andrew Neuendorf, Kusano Shimpei, Dion Farquhar, Lisa, Emily Gordon, Karen Plata, Dinah Roma, Doug Lang, Claire Becker, Cary= l Pagel, Walter Mosley, Stephanie Stickland, Frank Sherlock, Justin Dodd, Katina Papson, Daniel Zimmerman, Keith Waldrop, Douglas Manson, Charles Olson, Bill Peschel, Franklin Bruno, Nathan Hauke, Paul Hoover, William Moor, C. Harris Stevens, Walter Abish, Amy Lemmon, Claude Royet-Journoud, John Keene, Aaron Armstrong Skomra, Jordan Sanderson, Reg Johanson, Peter Yovu, Daniel Pendergrass, John Beer, Justin Lacour, Jennifer Moxley, Nathan Lang, Hazel Smith, Iamnasra Oman, pr primeau, Sheryl Luna, Jonathan Ball, Terry Southern, Christian Peet, Pierre Joris, Oana Avasilichioaei, Arunta, Deanna Ferguson, Tom Phillips, Susan Schultz, Jason Camlot, David Kirschenbaum, Gail Mazur, Jack Hughes, Zack Finch, J.H.Prynne, Rebecca Loudon, Scott Inguito, Esmail Yazdanpour, Naftali Bacharach, Jennifer Osborne, Sylvia Plath, Richard Lopez, Sandy Baldwin, Kirsten Lavers, Andrew Christ, Ann Lauterbach, Shelly Taylor, Nicole Peyrafitte, Jessica Savitz, Sam Golden Rule Jones, K. Silem Mohammad, Lionel Kearns, Lili Bita, Aime Cesaire, R W Sturgess, James Moran, Mike Topp, Dan Featherston, Chris Daniels, Gregory Botts, Nicole Oquendo, Thomas Devaney, Randall, Keith Shein, William Harris, Rik Roots, Patricia Carragon and Andy Comess, Alejandro Tarrab, Matthew Shindell, Eric Gamalinda, Amy Bernier, Spencer Selby, Simone Muench, Piombino, Michelle Buchanan, David Lehman, Jonathan Skinner, Sandra Beasley, Patricia Spears Jones, Hal Saulson, Laura Riding, Taylor Mali, Nam June Paik, W.B. Yeats, Peter Reading, Graham Foust, Brenda Coultas, Emily Lloyd, Ed Skoog, D.G. Jones, Vicente Huidobro, Jared Schickling, Peter Sacks, Kate Pringle, Rita Wong, Laila Lalami, Nancy Friedman, Franz Kafka, Robert Hellam, Brian Campbell, Danny Fields, Mario Cafiero, Peter Ciccariello, Cat Tyc, Nate Pritts, Andrea Brady, Andy Frazee= , Felino Soriano, Clair Becker, Soumana Dasgupta, Jill Riga, David Raphael Israel, Stacey Levine, Mike Magee, Tim Yu, Cesar Vallejo, Isidore Ducasse, Amanda Earl, Romina Freschi, Alan Halsey, Daniel f. Bradley, Charles Rossiter, Noelle Kocot, Jayne Pupek, Aldous Huxley, Deborah Fries, Alani Apio, Jessica Smith, Christopher Barnes, Rick Snyder, Sarah Lang, Emily Dickinson, Cecilia Ann, bpNichol, Susanna Fry, Gerard Manley Hopkins, Charles Borkhuis, Herman Beavers, Stephanie Skura, Jessica Bennett, Steve Carey, Madeline Gins, Thom Donovan, Chuck Perrin, Luci Tapahonso, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, Ira Cohen, Marko J. Niemi, Ray Davis, Nancy Gandhi, Dee Rimbaud, Mary O'Malley, Evie Ivie, Pamela Mack, Lawrence Lessig, Allyssa Wolf, and Snezana Zabic. ________________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of = Janet McCann [j-mccann1@TAMU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Barbara Crooker, Linda Pastan, Patricia Fargnoli, Mark Doty, Edward Byrne, Richard Howard, Annie Finch. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:26:33 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Organization: KAURAB Subject: Re: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom You are probably right although Naipaul, Gunter Grass and Pamuk [all winners since Saramago] are great writers who are still contemporary, internationally important and inspiring. I know someone who recently did a brief interview of Saramago. Like fine wine Saramago is still ageing (84 or 85...) well but doesn't write very much. Interestingly, he lives in Spain these days, just outside of Madrid. I didn't know that Saramago was fluent in Spanish. Don't know anything about Le Clezio. Hopefully someone in the listserv could tell us more. And about him living in North America......that was warped humor. Reacting to the Nobel committee's complain about North American literature, that it is "insular". Somehow this has been a bad week for me. Something seems to have warped my sense of humor a little too obtuse. Perhaps Sarah Palin...... Aryanil > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas savage" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:54 PM > Subject: Re: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 > > > I don't know this writer's work. But I don't think it should matter where > a writer lives or is born in order to qualify for a Nobel Prize. What > matters is the quality of the work. Is it any good? Does anybody know? I > think the last Nobel novelist I found myself reading was and is Jose > Saramago who is definitely a master. Anybody who doubts that should read > Blindness. The new movie of that novel is also surprisingly good. Regards, > Tom Savage > > --- On Thu, 10/9/08, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > > From: Aryanil Mukherjee > Subject: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 2:11 PM > > Finally the prize went to someone who does lives in North America... > however... > > French > > novelist Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio > > http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2008/ > > aryanil > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:36:42 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii May I suggest Frederick Turner, Frederick Fierstein, and Gwynn, to name a few. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Luke Schlueter To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 2:30:06 PM Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Wendell Berry, an intellectual mentor of mine, would take umbrage with my suggestion that one needs to be a specialist to engage with complex poetry. So let me restate: "authors/works that are accessible to readers who don't have a lot of experience in reading poetry." Will that work? Luke ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Luke Schlueter Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 12:48 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Hi all, I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into this category. Much appreciated, Luke ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:42:46 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apparently you are not familiar with the situation in China. Or the polluti= on that occurred in the Eastern Bloc, or that Russia is still severely poll= uted. Or check out any city in any developing country. All of them are far = dirtier than the U.S. If anything should be understood, it's the correlatio= n between communism/socialism and environmental disaster. But the greens ar= e religious Marxists, so there's no talking to them. Facts are irrelevant t= o the religious Left.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----= =0AFrom: jared schickling =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.= BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 11:10:29 AM=0ASubject: Re: EX= CITED for the math=0A=0ADear Troy Camplin,=0A=0AThe problem with talking "r= eality" is we never end up talking actuality. Actually, Amerika, surely on= e of the freest markets relative to the rest of this planet (regulation and= oversight look funny when considering their sources; see the "lobby") is i= n fact the biggest polluter on this planet. Yr correlation between free ma= rkets and cleanliness is bogus. It also sounds a bit religious. Fetishizi= ng industry and the marketplace in terms of what matters conveniently skirt= s that little devil named Consumerism. =0A=0AEddie Bernays, Freud's nephew= , founder of public relations, friend to no one, hit the nail on the head w= hen he called democracy "the engineering of consent." In the 50s he rightl= y argued sales to depression survivors with newly disposable incomes could = continue to increase if advertisers utilized psychoanalytic theory to promo= te unrestrained consumption based on the rights and dignity said to be exis= ting in each repressed, individual lifestyle. In this light a "free market= " seems a mere enabler, some devotee's temple.=0A=0AJared Schickling=0A=0A= =0A_________________________________________________________________=0ASee = how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the go.= =0Ahttp://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/=0A=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all po= sts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:45:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Open/Closed Systems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Which shows you 1) don't understand open systems, 2) you don't understand that good rules create freedom, 3) you know nothing about my poetry, 4) you grossly misunderstand my poetics. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Paul Nelson To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:13:13 AM Subject: Re: Open/Closed Systems It's interesting that Troy argues for an open system in economics, but his poetics are closed closed closed. Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 ----- Original Message ---- From: Troy Camplin To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 5:55:00 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In an open system, you necessarily have to have energy coming into and exiting from the system. As the occurs, internal order is created -- an order that lies on the borderline of order and chaos, also known as creative destruction. In other words, it is a self-organizing system. It is liberals who want us to be free of burdens and choices. Freedom does not mean that, as it cannot be separated from responsibility. Freedom does not mean anarchy, but rather the implementation of the best rules to make the system creative. Note that I said "rules" and not "laws," as the former are flexible and can be bent, but the latter are inflexible and cannot be broken. Thus, the market is not orderless, but rather is a spontaneous order, ordered by no one person or group of people, but emergent from the activities of everyone. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ryan Daley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:43:30 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math Not sure we've been over this point yet, but here goes: If the free market is "open," what does that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? Free for what? Burdens and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it? I would rather it be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, or, better, Amok. On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell wrote: > Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush 43, & > Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most people > wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy isn't > mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well enough, > ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement > favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of life is ok > in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't people > get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a slogan that's > done wonders for the enviroment. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There is > nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you > otherwise was lying to you. > > Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. > Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not believing > in it is. > Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of > economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. > > My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it > excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of > poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and something that > we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the natural > state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in others. > Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market situations, > allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Troy, > > You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only not > believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. Have you > been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning out, the > credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your > "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty trillion at the > root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a casino > in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. > > As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery today, we > should tolerate it because it has existed before. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like the > > Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the Right or > the > > Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism > behaved > > almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't ideological > at > > all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system like > free > > market economies is much like saying you support the existence of deserts > in > > the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing world > is > > occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the governments > > there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the people > than > > in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent > > judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven > everywhere > > they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Alison Croggon > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their > > monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much any > > more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist > > marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across the > > west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of > > corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? Is > > Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive privatisation > > of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for > > most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just in > > the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures > > on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) across > > the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious > > decline), the US and Australia. > > > > And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of > > wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery > > there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the > > "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky > > government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in > > our own backyard. > > > > A > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. Wealth > is > > what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask > instead > > what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. > Historically > > it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. Government has > > historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will find no > > friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong-headedness > of > > the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the > freest > > markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong > central > > governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the > U.S.S.R. > > and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in a poor > > country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not that we > > can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need to do > is > > acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve the > > world. > > > Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more > harm > > than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow out of > > them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what keeps > poor > > people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's what's > > going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Alison Croggon > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > > > > > Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of > > > those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and housing for > > > everyone. > > > > > > Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the > > > moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how > > > much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the > > > lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to > > > mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, > > > due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that > > > follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some > > > questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and its > > > effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal > > > naivety the order of the day? > > > > > > A > > > -- > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:40:32 +1300 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Great idea Luke. =20 I'd suggest Bruce Andrews, especially for readers with an interest in polit= ics; Bernadette Mayer's Letters to Mothers; Charles Bernstein, more partic= ularly his recent comic verse; and Stacy Doris's wonderful Cheerleader's Gu= ide. I must admit the gridiron diagrams make it obscure to me but for most = American readers they're an accessibility bonus. As for my own work, I'm r= ather dubious about its literary merit, a bit but mostly I think it's a lot= of fun.=20 Wystan=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Beh= alf Of Luke Schlueter Sent: Friday, 10 October 2008 8:30 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Wendell Berry, an intellectual mentor of mine, would take umbrage with my s= uggestion that one needs to be a specialist to engage with complex poetry. = So let me restate: "authors/works that are accessible to readers who don't = have a lot of experience in reading poetry." Will that work? =20 Luke =20 ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Luke Schlueter Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 12:48 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Hi all, I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that hav= e significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist aud= ience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be ve= ry pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into t= his category. Much appreciated, Luke =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:48:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Beat Generation Symposium Starts Tomorrow! Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ******************************* THE BEAT GENERATION SYMPOSIUM ******************************* www.colum.edu/beatsymposium Full schedule pasted below. Please join us for a conference devoted to the literary and cultural legacy of the Beat Generation: “The Beat Generation Symposium,” co-sponsored by the Beat Studies Association, the Columbia College Chicago English Department and Provost’s Office, Columbia College’s Ellen Stone Belic Institute for the Study of Women and Gender in the Arts and Media, and the Illinois State University Department of English and College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Friday, October 10, and Saturday, October 11, 2008 Columbia College Chicago Film Row Cinema 1104 South Wabash Avenue, 8th floor This is an academic Beat Studies conference to be held in conjunction with the Columbia College’s Center for the Book and Paper Arts’s Fall 2008 display of the Jack Kerouac ON THE ROAD manuscript scroll. The Beat Generation Symposium features panel discussions each day, with poetry readings by Joanne Kyger (October 10) and Michael McClure (October 11). The readings are free and open to the public. We regret that Diane di Prima had to cancel her appearance, but are pleased to announce that Michael McClure will now be the featured poet on Saturday, October 11. The weekend of the symposium, there will be a related offsite reading by Michael Rothenberg (Unhurried Vision) and David Meltzer (David’s Copy) sponsored by Myopic Books and the Poetry Center of Chicago. Sunday, October 12, 7:00 p.m. Myopic Books, 1564 N Milwaukee Ave, in Chicago’s Wicker Park neighborhood. ******************************* REGISTRATION ******************************* Free for Columbia College faculty, staff, and students with valid IDs. Evening poetry readings are free and open to the public. Conference fees: $100 ($50 for Graduate Students, Independent Scholars, and Retired Faculty). ******************************* CONFERENCE SCHEDULE ******************************* OCTOBER 10, 2008 10:00 a.m. Welcome and Plenary Address Jennie Skerl, West Chester University Tony Trigilio, Columbia College Chicago 10:15-11:30 a.m. "Road Mapping(s): The Textual Terrain of On the Road" Panel Chair: Tim Hunt, Illinois State University "Byways and Highways: Manuscripts, Typescripts, and the Process of On the Road" Isaac Gewirtz, Curator, Berg Collection, New York Public Library "Visions and Versions of Jack: A Fluid Text Edition of On the Road" John Bryant, Department of English, Hofstra University "Hidden Roads: Improvisational Textuality and On the Road" Tim Hunt, Department of English, Illinois State University 11:45-1:00 p.m. "Crossing to Safety -- Cultural Contestations in Beat Literature" Panel Chair: Fiona Paton, State University of New York at New Paltz "Kerouac, Beat Religiosity, and the Center of American Culture" Steven Schroeder, Shenzhen University "'A Kick at the Icebox Door': Haiku and Beat Haikus" Matt Theado, Gardner-Webb University "Jack Kerouac, the Québécois Diaspora, and Québécois Literature" Hassan Melehy, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 1:00-2:30 p.m. (Break for Lunch) 2:30-3:45 p.m. "The Aesthetics and Spirit of Avant-Garde Practice: Joanne Kyger and Diane di Prima" Panel Chair: Ronna C. Johnson, Tufts University "Joanne Kyger and the Aesthetics of Attention" Terrance Diggory, Skidmore College "'Who did we pray to'? Diane di Prima's Loba" Tony Trigilio, Columbia College Chicago "'From the inside': Joanne Kyger's Changes of Mind" Linda Russo, Washington State University "The Feminized Interzone in Kyger and Di Prima" Amy Friedman, Ursinus College 4:00-5:15 p.m. "Hydrogen Jukebox: Allen Ginsberg and Deaf Poetry" Peter Cook, Columbia College Chicago Miriam Lerner, National Technical Institute for the Deaf, Rochester Institute of Technology Kenny Lerner, National Technical Institute for the Deaf, Rochester Institute of Technology; Member, Flying Words Project 7:00 p.m. Poetry reading by Joanne Kyger OCTOBER 11, 2008 8:45-10:00 a.m. "Beat Studies, The Next Generation: Showcasing Graduate and Post-Graduate Scholarship" Panel Chair: Tony Trigilio, Columbia College Chicago "The Impossible Manifesto: Tracing the Manifesto Form through Avant-Garde and Beat Writing" Jimmy Fazzino, University of California, Santa Cruz. "Parasites, Viruses, and William S. Burroughs's Method" Michael Sean Bolton, Arizona State University. "Summers in the Skagit: Gary Snyder, Jack Kerouac, and the Language of the Lookout" John J. Morrell, Vanderbilt University. 10:15-11:30 a.m. "Exploring the Beat Landscape -- Welch, Ferlinghetti, and Kaufman" Panel Chair: Nancy M. Grace, The College of Wooster "Lew Welch: Hermit Poet of Rat Flat" Jane Falk, The University of Akron "'Unfair Arguments with Existence': Ferlinghetti's One-Acts and the Modes of Beat Drama" Deborah R. Geis, DePauw University "Bob Kaufman and Urbanizing Pastoral" Todd Nathan Thorpe, The University of Notre Dame 11:45-12:45 p.m. Elizabeth Von Vogt reads from her memoir, 681 Lexington Avenue -- A Beat Education in New York City, 1947-1954 In this memoir just released from Greater Midwest Publishing, Von Vogt, a sister of John Clellon Holmes, describes her coming of age among Clellon Holmes, Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and other Beats in post-World War II New York City. 12:45-2:15 p.m. (Break for lunch) 2:30-3:45 p.m. "New Scholarship on William S. Burroughs" Panel Chair: Jennie Skerl, West Chester University "Love and 'Genial' Laughter: Cutting Up The Ticket That Exploded (1961 and 1967)" Katharine Streip, Concordia University "Conservative Politics and Literary Radicalism: Burroughs and Kerouac" Allen Hibbard, Middle Tennessee State University "William S. Burroughs as 'Good Ol'Boy': Eating the Naked Lunch in East Texas" Rob Johnson, The University of Texas-Pan American Respondent: Timothy Murphy, University of Oklahoma 4:00-5:15 p.m. "Beat Reception and Recovery -- Assessing the Critics and the Historians" Chair: Tim Hunt, Illinois State University "Inside the 6 Gallery with Co-founder Deborah Remington" Nancy M. Grace, The College of Wooster "Kerouac Reception in the 1980s: Renaissance and Scholarly Revival" Ronna C. Johnson, Tufts University. "Recent Reception of Naked Lunch" Jennie Skerl, West Chester University. "Infiltrating the Boy Gang: Women in the Encyclopedia of Beat Literature" Kurt Hemmer, William Rainey Harper College 7:00 p.m. Poetry reading by Michael McClure 8:00 p.m. Closing Reception (Film Row Theater lobby) The Beat Generation Symposium is sponsored by the English Department and Provost's Office of Columbia College Chicago, in conjunction with the Beat Studies Association, an international organization that fosters scholarship on Beat Generation literature and art; Ellen Stone Belic Institute for the Study of Women and Gender in the Arts and Media; and the Illinois State University Department of English and College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. For information on joining the Beat Studies Association, please go to: http://www.wooster.edu/beatstudies/index.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:50:19 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, These are the events coming up at The Poetry Project. Scroll all the way down for info on a Saturday reading here at St. Mark=B9s Church hosted by Poets for a Better Country. Friday, October 10, 10 PM Vanessa Place & Steven Zultanski Vanessa Place is a writer and lawyer, and co-director of Les Figues Press. She is the author of Dies: A Sentence, a 50,000-word, one-sentence novella, the post-conceptual novel La Medusa (Fiction Collective 2), a chapbook, Figure from The Gates of Paradise (Woodland Editions/Five Fingers Review) and the forthcoming Conceptualisms: An Ill-Conceived Guide to Kinda Conceptual, Post-Conceptual, Extant and Taxonomical Writings, etc., written with Robert Fitterman (Ugly Duckling Presse). Her nonfiction book, The Guil= t Project: Rape and Morality, will be published in Fall 2009 by Other Press. Her collaboration with artist/performer Lamya Regragui will debut at Cent Quatre in Paris/Los Angeles in 2009, and she is collaborating with conceptual artist Stephanie Taylor on Olady, a visual/sound project. She lives in Los Angeles. Steven Zultanski is the author of the chapbooks Homoe= m (Radical Readout, 2005), This and That Lenin (BookThug, 2008) and Steve's Poem (Lettermachine, forthcoming). He edits President's Choice magazine, a Lil' Norton publication. His poetry has appeared in Antennae, FO(A)RM, The Physical Poets, Shiny, and elsewhere. Monday, October 13, 8 PM Dan Featherston & Luisa Giugliano Dan Featherston moved to Philadelphia from Tucson in 2005. His books of poetry include The Clock Maker's Memoir (Cuneiform Press, 2007), United States (Factory School, 2005), and Into the Earth (Quarry Press, 2005). Dan's poetry has appeared in dozens of journals, including Chain, Mandorla (Mexico), New American Writing, Sulfur, and Talisman. He currently teaches as a visiting professor at Kutztown University and lives in Germantown with Rachel McCrystal and their dog Fredo. Luisa Giugliano spent the last seventeen years in a treehouse, teaching poetry to small mammals and yoga t= o objects, trading antique silks, nursing unweaned babes and (imaginary) Shavian devotees. Her poems descended and on occasion proliferated in The Germ, No, Kiosk, and Fourteen Hills. When she recently climbed down, she discovered the woods were still the woods and food was still food. Although she has been at various times goldsmith and fireeater, she abides for the moment in Vermont with husband and son. Wednesday, October 15, 8 PM Eleni Sikelianos & James Thomas Stevens Eleni Sikelianos is the author of six books, including The California Poem and The Book of Jon. Du Soleil, de l=B9histoire, de la vision, a selected poems translated into French, appeared in fall 2007. Forthcoming are a new book of poems, Body Clock and her translation of Jacques Roubaud=B9s Exchange= s on Light. She presently teaches in and directs the Creative Writing Program at the University of Denver. James Thomas Stevens is the author of seven books of poetry, Tokinish (First Intensity Press 1994), Combing the Snakes from His Hair (Michigan State UP), dis(Orient) (Palmpress), Mohawk/Samoa: Transmigrations (subpress), The Mutual Life (Plan B Press), A Bridge Dead i= n the Water (Salt Publishing) and Bulle/Chim=E8re (First Intensity Press). He i= s a member of the Akwesasne Mohawk tribe, holds an MFA from Brown University and is a 2000 Whiting Award recipient and a 2005 National Poetry Series finalist. He has published in many journals and done readings from Stirling= , Scotland and Cambridge, England to Amman, Jordon and Grenoble, France. He currently teaches English and Native American Studies at the State University of New York at Fredonia. Friday, October 17, 10 PM Marie Buck, Gordon Faylor & Edward Hopely Marie Buck's first book of poems, Life & Style, is forthcoming from Patrick Lovelace Editions. She co-edits, with Brad Flis, the small poetry journal Model Homes. She lives and studies in Detroit. Gordon Faylor and Edward Hopely will read from, perform and distribute a new collaborative work for two readers. Gordon Faylor presently serves as the Assistant Editor of mid)rib and as Editor of its upcoming chapbook series. Edward Hopely is the author of some chapbooks and ran the =B3Hammered All Around Their Nail Heads=B2 reading series this past year. SUNDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2-5PM (sharp) ST. MARK=B9S CHURCH, PARISH HALL POETS FOR A BETTER COUNTRY: A READING TO PROMOTE CHANGE =20 On October 12, organizers of Poets for a Better Country-NY (readings will also be held in Pittsburgh, Chicago and Falmouth, MA) will hold a public reading at St. Marks Church, Parish Hall, 131 East 10th Street, 2 -5 pm, courtesy of the Poetry Project. In the tradition of Allen Ginsberg, who often read his politically engaged poetry at this iconic site, 40 poets wil= l make their voices heard for social and economic justice as the Presidential election looms. They will read work that will inspire their fellow citizens to vote for Barack Obama in November, contribute money to the Obama/Biden campaign, and urge Obama, himself, to honor his pledge to restore democracy= , defined in his own words as =B3a promise that says each of us has the freedom to make of our own lives what we will, but that we also have the obligation to treat each other with dignity and respect.=B2 =20 Poets slated to read in New York City are Elena Alexander, E.J. Antonio, Tara Betts, Stefan Bondell, Susan Brennan, Mahogany Browne, Cheryl Clarke, DeLana Dameron, Thomas Sayers Ellis, Adam Falkner, Luis Francia, Sarah Gambito, Ellen Hagan= , Roya Hakakian, Bob Holman, Juliet Howard, Avery Irons, Regina Jamison, Hettie Jones, Jacqueline Jones LaMon, Joseph Legaspi, Brant Lyon, Marty McConnell, Caitlin Grace McDonnell, Alison Meyers, Idra Novey, Valery Oisteanu, Pit Pinegar, Karen Pittelman, Ilka Scobie, Ravi Shankar, Patricia Smith, Patricia Spears Jones, Stacy Szymaszek, Truth Thomas, R. A. Villanueva, Rich Villar, Jerry Williams, Jeff Wright and Rita Zilberman. Books by the many of the poets will be available for purchase, with proceeds to benefit the Obama/Biden campaign. Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: fake anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow just found out i am in the fake antho and i actually wrote that poem (in my sleep i think) and this fame thing well right now i gave up a good gig on election nite here in ny with lots of famous musician folk and $$$$$ to go to france for a while i'm still torn vey sad / flushed distressed think maybe my gig here woulda brought me over night success any one out there concur or think i should go on the trip work on the new book there like i'm supposed to and keep writin them poems in my sleep since i'm stupid i think my antho pome's quite great since i'm insecure and always need inclusion i'm relieved to find me in there if only once On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:31:40 -0500 mIEKAL aND writes: > Why only 3000+ entries? Perec at least chose a noble accomplishment > > (Hundred Thousand Billion Poems). Are at least one poem for each > person on the planet living & dead. > > ~mIEKAL > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:44:21 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: andrew burke Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: <48EE5550.9050704@tamu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Les Murray, John Kinsella, Pam Brown, Dorothy Porter, (some) John Tranter, Rob Adamson, Tom Waits, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan 2008/10/10 Janet McCann : > Luke Schlueter wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that >> have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist >> audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be >> very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into >> this category. >> Much appreciated, >> Luke >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > Barbara Crooker, Linda Pastan, Patricia Fargnoli, Mark Doty, Edward Byrne, > Richard Howard, Annie Finch. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Andrew http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:54:19 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well, I have found that readers are best served by poems that are interesting to them and as poetry simultaneously, so the "accessible" poets you mention seem unsuitable to fostering discussion about reading poetry context? I had very excellent results teaching a reading poetry course for mostly adult/nontraditional undergrads that allowed students, with my counsel, to select whole books of poetry by contemporary authors (I would often list similar historical authors who were better known), and then write reviews: the reviews were important, because it reinforced that every reader can have something valuable to add, for one thing (there were other reasons this worked particularly well); the course didn't work one term when an old (not mine) course description about accessible, issue-based poems ran in the catalog -- we (me, admin, students together) only figured out the problem when a student asked "when are we going to talk about AIDS?" in class -- I say this because the student in "English 3xx: Reading Poetry" came up with it; not even when are we going to talk about any topic about poetry or reading, but about an issue. New York School poems, the shorter ones, can be fun; Gunslinger, movie poems, too; try local poets historically and now -- the best of the best, the ones with a familiar place, and the ones reading at local bookshops. I second Finch for students caught in "Robert Frost is the only poet" zone. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Luke Schlueter < lschlueter@readingprograms.org> wrote: > Wendell Berry, an intellectual mentor of mine, would take umbrage with my > suggestion that one needs to be a specialist to engage with complex poetry. > So let me restate: "authors/works that are accessible to readers who don't > have a lot of experience in reading poetry." Will that work? > > Luke > > > ________________________________ > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Luke Schlueter > Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 12:48 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's > > > > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that > have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist > audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be > very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall into > this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:26:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, David Chirot wrote: I always like your writing, but this is really pushing it; you might reverse things and say that anthologies are based on those who go to heaven and therefore are blessed, not prisons but openings; certainly the Mormon archives tends towards this. You're using [anthology] I think and by stating this "Innocuous, that is, unless" seems a kind of problematic baiting that ignores in fact the freedom and fancy of the particular anthology under question. You then jump to cells and terrorism, and for me, this jump is a kind of cell or terror itself, not the thing itself, but an accumulated surplus; for me if we're going this route, I'll take Mormon. But then I've edited a number of anthologies. - Alan > > Innocuous, that is, unless one begins to think of anthologies themselves as > another form of prison-creation, or prisons as another form of anthology > making. > > After all, the throwing together of a seemingly "loosely associated" group > of people under one rubric might seem to designate the persons named and > assembled thereby as a "movement," a "trend," or even a "terrorist cadre," > made up of several interlinked "sleeper cells." Even if the various "cells" > are unknown to each other, by showing them to be linked in some way by the > over riding theme of the Anthology, one has created of them an overall face > & effect of "Terror," and "Alert," or of a new kind of poetry "that bears > watching in the future." > > Since critics and agents often share the same goals of uncovering "secret" > analogies, "hidden" symbolisms,"traces of fragments of the palimpsests of > previous plots," and so forth--it seems quite possible that a critic could > turn out to be an "undercover" agent--seeking for what is indeed "between > the covers of the book," as, after all, the agent/critic continually reminds > one, "you can't judge a book by the cover." And that person who claims to be > an agent in the field working for the government might well turn out after > all to be no more than just another critic desperately hunting for the next > "great and sobering poetic discovery," the next "pre-teen prodigy of poesy." > or "the latest previously unknown towering genius, all these years lost in > the back lands, hidden among the knitting and the sheep." > > Whoever they are, whatever they are up to, the Internet, so rife with names > and information about the names, is a regular Happy Hunting ground beyond > the wildest dreams of Ernest Hemingway set loose in a Protected Wild Life > preserve for those who are hot on the heels of compiling Anthologies, let > alone filling prisons, or committing kidnappings for huge ransoms, or > uncovering the Babylonian origins of the Sicilian Code. > > So here are some thoughts addressed to this topic-- > to while away the time of one's sentence-- > a continually postponed hearing-- > where death row and publisher's row > are the same place > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:04:29 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think it would be fairly easy in the current environment for someone to jumble together 3000 pages of pro-terrorist (orgs, politics, slogans, anarchist handbook instructions for wmd, nearly-secret docs, etc.) and sign the names of 3000 artists likely to need to enter or leave the US. I think all of us know people who, over the past few years, have been scheduled to speak, or read, or perform, somewhere in the US and were not allowed into the US. This person might even do such a thing so that 3000 more articulate people start battling a bit harder to return the laws to normal. It would be easy to harvest the names of a group of academics at schools with a religious mission or at publicly-funded universities where the legislature has more direct oversight, and write something that would create job problems for them. It would be easy to publish a number of anthologies on the "wrong' side of the culture wars to create an overall impression of poets that would be untrue: these are the dark things I thought about when Geraldine mentioned them. Note they all have to do with human intent -- of a writer, say. Still, quoting from sustainable aircraft: "The fact that there are 367,294 Iraqi civilians who we couldn't say are alive or dead right now is indicative of both the impossibility and the urgency of the project". Meg Hamill (to write an obit for each) "The impossibility of the project is not merely a result of that mathematical sublime..." Diana Hamilton * I don't see a reason why this particular anthology, since the "poems" are lineated, couldn't be reformatted with every poem being split into 25 lines, say, and the names also seperated, so that each one of us wrote 25! poems out of 3000 x 25! poems . Except for Quackenbush, who'd write 3 x 25! poems. God bless Japes. The intrinsic mathematical, and mathematically extensible nature of this raises questions, most of which are boring, but my primary question today is: are the poems -- given that a certain number of "cursory readers" and one "writer" see a homogenity, and a certain number of readers -- and an editor -- see a divergence: are the recombinant poems actually separable, or individual poems? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:26:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <520844.78928.qm@web46201.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline "Apparently you are not familiar with the situation in China." Troy, How is dirtiness a symptom of progress? (New York is much dirtier than Oslo= , Brugge, even parts of Cancun.) And...Not to belabor the point, but have you ever been to China? -Ryan On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Apparently you are not familiar with the situation in China. Or the > pollution that occurred in the Eastern Bloc, or that Russia is still > severely polluted. Or check out any city in any developing country. All o= f > them are far dirtier than the U.S. If anything should be understood, it's > the correlation between communism/socialism and environmental disaster. B= ut > the greens are religious Marxists, so there's no talking to them. Facts a= re > irrelevant to the religious Left. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: jared schickling > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 11:10:29 AM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Dear Troy Camplin, > > The problem with talking "reality" is we never end up talking actuality. > Actually, Amerika, surely one of the freest markets relative to the rest= of > this planet (regulation and oversight look funny when considering their > sources; see the "lobby") is in fact the biggest polluter on this planet. > Yr correlation between free markets and cleanliness is bogus. It also > sounds a bit religious. Fetishizing industry and the marketplace in term= s > of what matters conveniently skirts that little devil named Consumerism. > > Eddie Bernays, Freud's nephew, founder of public relations, friend to no > one, hit the nail on the head when he called democracy "the engineering o= f > consent." In the 50s he rightly argued sales to depression survivors wit= h > newly disposable incomes could continue to increase if advertisers utiliz= ed > psychoanalytic theory to promote unrestrained consumption based on the > rights and dignity said to be existing in each repressed, individual > lifestyle. In this light a "free market" seems a mere enabler, some > devotee's temple. > > Jared Schickling > > > _________________________________________________________________ > See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on t= he > go. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Renee Ashley Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Catherine Doty's MOMENTUM. Brilliant book of narratives that have enormous resonance. Renee >> Hi all, >> >> I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that >> have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a >> non-specialist >> audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would >> be >> very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall >> into >> this category. >> >> Much appreciated, >> Luke ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:39:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed As far as I'm concerned, the right has won, given the way these discus- sions are going. Yes, you could have 3000 pages of bombs and slaughter, you could also have 3000 pages of bird behavior, even in "the current environment," and by this reasoning, you should be suspect of every single-authored book since Hitler wrote Mein Kampf and who knows what lies beyond even this simple-minded response of mine, perhaps I have a gun. So the anthology is now associated with terror, and so is Obama. Great. - Alan On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Catherine Daly wrote: > I think it would be fairly easy in the current environment for someone to > jumble together 3000 pages of pro-terrorist (orgs, politics, slogans, > anarchist handbook instructions for wmd, nearly-secret docs, etc.) and sign > the names of 3000 artists likely to need to enter or leave the US. I think > all of us know people who, over the past few years, have been scheduled to > speak, or read, or perform, somewhere in the US and were not allowed into > the US. This person might even do such a thing so that 3000 more articulate > people start battling a bit harder to return the laws to normal. > It would be easy to harvest the names of a group of academics at schools > with a religious mission or at publicly-funded universities where the > legislature has more direct oversight, and write something that would create > job problems for them. > > It would be easy to publish a number of anthologies on the "wrong' side of > the culture wars to create an overall impression of poets that would be > untrue: > these are the dark things I thought about when Geraldine mentioned them. > Note they all have to do with human intent -- of a writer, say. > > Still, quoting from sustainable aircraft: > > "The fact that there are 367,294 Iraqi civilians who we couldn't say are > alive or dead right now is indicative of both the impossibility and the > urgency of the project". Meg Hamill (to write an obit for each) > > "The impossibility of the project is not merely a result of that > mathematical sublime..." Diana Hamilton > > * > > I don't see a reason why this particular anthology, since the "poems" > are lineated, couldn't be reformatted with every poem being split into 25 > lines, say, and the names also seperated, so that each one of us wrote 25! > poems out of 3000 x 25! poems . Except for Quackenbush, who'd write 3 x 25! > poems. God bless Japes. > > The intrinsic mathematical, and mathematically extensible nature of this > raises questions, most of which are boring, but my primary question today > is: are the poems -- given that a certain number of "cursory readers" and > one "writer" see a homogenity, and a certain number of readers -- and an > editor -- see a divergence: are the recombinant poems actually separable, or > individual poems? > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:58:04 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable among the recently departed, Cid Corman is excellent. Not well known = =0A=0Aamong the recently departed, Cid Corman is excellent. Not well known = beyond D.C., but a very prolific, living=A0poet, Dean Blehert. Though I war= n you, he's a, ugh, committed Scientologist. Also accessible and extemely p= rolific, Lyn Lifshin.=A0=A0=A0=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFro= m: Luke Schlueter =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.B= UFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 12:48:06 PM=0ASubject: Looking= for accessible poetry rec's=0A=0AHi all,=0A=0AI'm creating a contemporary = poetry list that will consist of works that have significant literary merit= and yet are accessible to a non-specialist audience (think Collins, Dunn, = Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would be very pleased if you might reco= mmend some authors/works that would fall into this category.=0A=0AMuch appr= eciated,=0ALuke=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is mode= rated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:09:03 -0400 Reply-To: afilreis@writing.upenn.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Organization: University of Pennsylvania Subject: Armantrout on silence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New at PennSound: Rae Armantrout's 1983 talk on silence: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Armantrout.html#1983 -- Al Filreis Kelly Professor Faculty Dir., Kelly Writers House Dir., Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing University of Pennsylvania http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: creeley's library Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ARLIS-L] Robert Creeley's Library Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:24:33 -0400 From: Steve Clay Reply-To: Steve Clay To: ARLIS-L@LSV.UKY.EDU Robert Creeley's Library Granary Books is pleased to offer for sale a selection of more than 1,300 books, pamphlets, manuscripts, correspondence, and related materials from the library of preeminent American poet Robert Creeley (1926-2005). This selection is offered as a group, rather than as individual items, because of the preponderance of archival material accumulated within the books. Robert Creeley made a practice of inserting relevant letters, manuscripts, clippings, photographs, and ephemera into his books, many of which also bear significant inscriptions, thus making his library an important documentary archive occupying a rich site for research parallel to the primary repository of his papers at Stanford University. Highlights among the author collections particularly rich with inscriptions and often including important correspondence and other association and archival material are: Ted Berrigan, Paul Blackburn (14 items), Joe Brainard (12 items), Stan Brakhage, Richard Brautigan (13 items), Basil Bunting (14 items), Tom Clark, Fielding Dawson (33 items), Diane Di Prima, Edward Dorn (31 items), Robert Duncan and Jess (over 50 items including "Caesar=B9s Gate," Divers Press, 1955, Creeley=B9s copy [1 of 3 =AD letter =B3C=B2] with an original Jess collage and holograph poem by Duncan), Larry Eigner, Allen Ginsberg (35 items many with excellent inscriptions), John Hawkes, Anselm Hollo, Ronald Johnson, Joanne Kyger, Irving Layton (12 items), Denise Levertov (28 items), Alison Lurie, Michael McClure (42 items), Charles Olson (59 items including several inscribed), Joel Oppenheimer (including "The Dancer" (1951) with Robert Rauschenberg, Jargon 2), Ann Quin, Tom Raworth, Aram Saroyan (11 items), Gary Snyder (including an inscribed copy of "Riprap," Origin Press, 1959), Philip Whalen, John Wieners, Jonathan Williams (26 items authored by JW including "Garbage Litters the Iron Face of the Sun=B9s Child" (1951), Jargon 1, along with more than 35 other titles published by the Jargon Society), and Louis Zukofsky (29 items including "80 Flowers"). The library includes Creeley=B9s personal copies of most of his regular separate publications (217 items) and contained within many are inscriptions, annotations, corrections, cards, letters, photographs, clippings, notes, etc. from Marisol, Edward Dahlberg, Stan Brakhage, Louis Zukofsky, Sherman Paul, Octavio Paz, Jim Dine, Georg Baselitz, Walter Hamady, Fielding Dawson, Denise Levertov, among others. Several of Creeley=B9s collaborations with artists are present including "A Day Book" with R.B. Kitaj (Graphis, 1972), "Signs" with Georg Baselitz (Graphicstudio, 2000), and "7 & 6" with Robert Therrien and Michel Butor (Hoshour Gallery, 1988). Price and detailed catalog (via pdf) are available on request to interested institutional clients. Steve Clay Granary Books 168 Mercer St. #2 New York, NY 10012 212 337-9979 212 337-9774 (fax) www.granarybooks.com __________________________________________________________________ Mail submissions to arlis-l@lsv.uky.edu For information about joining ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to listserv@lsv.uky.edu ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.uky.edu/archives/arlis-l.html Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: jdyki@cranbrook.edu =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:28:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable given that a certain number of "cursory read= Catherine Dalt writes:=0A=0A=0Agiven that a certain number of "cursory read= ers" and=0Aone "writer" see a homogenity, and a certain number of readers -= - and an=0Aeditor -- see a divergence: are the recombinant poems actually s= eparable, or=0Aindividual poems?=0A=0A=0A---An interesting question, but on= e that arises any time a body of work seems self-consistent. Maurice Sceve'= s Delie, anyone? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:27:29 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Laura Riding on Issue - Anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "No one seems to realize that the destruction of poetry as a tradition would not destroy poetry itself." --Laura Riding, CONTEMPORARIES AND SNOBS _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:04:18 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Nobel Prize for Literature - 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to today's Independent, Le Clezio lives in Albuquerque, NM.= =0A=0AAccording to today's Independent, Le Clezio lives in Albuquerque, NM.= =0A=0A=0A=0A=0ADon't know anything about Le Clezio. Hopefully someone in th= e listserv could =0Atell us more. And about him living in North America....= ..that was warped =0Ahumor. Reacting to the Nobel committee's complain abou= t North American =0Aliterature, that it is "insular". Somehow this has been= a bad week for me. =0ASomething seems to have warped my sense of humor a l= ittle too obtuse. =0APerhaps Sarah Palin......=0A=0AAryanil =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:12:31 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Roy Exley Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Trawling further afield - into the poetry of song lyrics - might I suggest Nina Nastasia, Stina Nordenstam and Hope Sandoval. The sounds are good too! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:57:12 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Roy Exley Subject: Re: Excited for the math Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Troy Camplin, Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place - I sense there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem to be attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have demonstrated more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not politics, (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics without poetry is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:38:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Luke Schlueter Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate your suggestions and comments. = You may be interested to know that this list isn't just a pet project. = It will be a sublist in a much more comprehensive literature booklist = that is currently being produced/put together by a reading institute = that I work for ( Also, which is neither here nor there, in teach a few = writing/lit. classes a semester at the local university). The booklist = is intended to be utilized by adults who would like some guidance in = advancing their education and reading. Originally the booklist wasn't = going to have a poetry section, but I successfully argued that, given = exposure to rich, meaningful, accessible poetry, there is as much = likelihood as not that the newly engaged reader might spend at least = some time reading poetry as part of their daily (weekly?) reading diet. = You can see that this invites all sort of questions about the current = relationship between poetry and the reading public. In light of the fact = that the booklist will go out to some 10,000 adults a year, my hope is = to influence some modest number to re-think their attitudes about and = engagement with poetry. =20 Thanks again. Now I have to go read the poets you mention that I'm not = familiar with! =20 Luke ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Catherine Daly Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 8:54 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's well, I have found that readers are best served by poems that are interesting to them and as poetry simultaneously, so the "accessible" = poets you mention seem unsuitable to fostering discussion about reading poetry context? I had very excellent results teaching a reading poetry course for mostly adult/nontraditional undergrads that allowed students, with my counsel, = to select whole books of poetry by contemporary authors (I would often list similar historical authors who were better known), and then write = reviews: the reviews were important, because it reinforced that every reader can = have something valuable to add, for one thing (there were other reasons this worked particularly well); the course didn't work one term when an old = (not mine) course description about accessible, issue-based poems ran in the catalog -- we (me, admin, students together) only figured out the = problem when a student asked "when are we going to talk about AIDS?" in class -- = I say this because the student in "English 3xx: Reading Poetry" came up = with it; not even when are we going to talk about any topic about poetry or reading, but about an issue. New York School poems, the shorter ones, can be fun; Gunslinger, movie poems, too; try local poets historically and now -- the best of the = best, the ones with a familiar place, and the ones reading at local bookshops. I second Finch for students caught in "Robert Frost is the only poet" = zone. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Luke Schlueter < lschlueter@readingprograms.org> wrote: > Wendell Berry, an intellectual mentor of mine, would take umbrage with = my > suggestion that one needs to be a specialist to engage with complex = poetry. > So let me restate: "authors/works that are accessible to readers who = don't > have a lot of experience in reading poetry." Will that work? > > Luke > > > ________________________________ > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Luke Schlueter > Sent: Thu 10/9/2008 12:48 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's > > > > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works = that > have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a = non-specialist > audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I = would be > very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall = into > this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's Comments: To: ClementsB@WCSU.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline very funny! >>> ClementsB@WCSU.EDU 10/09/08 5:10 PM >>> Luke Schlueter wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works that = have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a non-specialist = audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, Olds etc.). I would = be very pleased if you might recommend some authors/works that would fall = into this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke Here are a few you might try: Nada Gordon, Evelyn Reilly, Julianna Mundim, Emmy Catedral, Enid Bagnold, Richard Siken, Stephen Ratcliffe, Michael Gottlieb, Jodie Childers, Norman J. Olson, Brent Hendricks, Sean Kilpatrick, Tom McCarthy, Stacy Doris, Michael Rerick, Corrinne Clegg = Hales, Mark Decarteret, Hadewijch of Antwerp, Darren Wershler-Henry, Letitia = Trent, Debra Di Blasi, Laura Elrick, Bruna Mori, Popahna Brandes, Robert = Sheppard, Diana Magallan, Kristine Danielson, Ed Higgins, Drew Gardner, .....Carra = Fitzpatrick, D.A. Powell, Julia Sto =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:03:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: "You know, a lot of Europeans wonder, why are Americans so crazy? They keep reelecting this guy." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "You know, a lot of Europeans wonder, why are Americans so crazy? They keep reelecting this guy. Well, the answer is, we don't. You know, they keep stealing these elections. And they stole it in 2000, they stole it in 2004, and they're all set up to steal it again." --RFK Jr. from yesterday's transcript of Democracy Now. Greg Palast's important report on how our votes are in jepordy, AGAIN, transcript here: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/9/greg_palast_on_vote_rigging_and CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:31:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Hosea Subject: ONE NIGHT ONLY! TONIGHT! Hosea, Christle & more 8 PM @ The Lucky Cat, Williamsburg, BKLYN Comments: To: Amy Dickinson , Ana Bozicevic-Bowling , Article Art and the Imaginative Promise , "The Blue Letter (Chris and Cecily)" , Amy Touchette , Andrew Roberts , amoharre@english.umass.edu, Colin Apse , Betsy Beier , Chip Brantley , George Bissias , Kim Bennett , Scott Bridi , Sommer Browning , Cecily Iddings , Catherine Taylor , Chris Koh , Craig Thomas , Ian Clark , Devin Hosea , "Jeffrey D. Lependorf" , Thom Donovan , Jennifer DePrima , david.canter@db.com, Elizabeth Hughey , "kmeek@english.umass.edu" , Elissa Leichter , Nicole Steinberg , Ear Inn Poetry , Eddie Carlson , Editors No , Editors of n+1 , editrice@journal1913.org, Fred Schmalz , Joe Fletcher , flis@english.umass.edu, Greg Zinman , Kate Garklavs , Nathaniel Greene , Sarah Gibbons , Will Georgantas , Lawrence Giffin , Kate Greenstreet , geck044@earthlink.net, Jeannie Hoag , Steph Hosea , Stephanie Hosea , "Thomas Heise, Prof." , John Hennessy , Lauren Ireland , Iowa Review , Alexis Lyons , iandreiblatt@gmail.com, janke , Jung Yun , Kathy Hosea , Richard James , Jim Behrle , Ken Moon , katalanchepress@gmail.com, Libby Burton , Justin Lacour , matt longabucco , Ricardo Maldonado , Billy Merrell , Myles Paige , Mark Yakich , Rusty Morrison , Leah Masci , Madeleine , Michael Broder , "casey.st@comcast.net" , nshinday@gmail.com, nichols.travis@gmail.com, octopusmagazine@gmail.com, "Zach Barocas, Publisher" , the reading , Victoria Rosen , Hila Ratzabi , smith.david.william@gmail.com, Tom , wlsalinger@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hope to see you!! Love, Chris Chris Hosea & Heather Christle > w/Jennifer Kikoler, Levi Rubeck, & Claire Shefchik > Friday, October 10, 8 pm > @ The Lucky Cat, 245 Grand St. (b/w Driggs & Roebling), > Williamsburg, BKLYN, 11211 > More info at: www.earshotnyc.com > [image: > http://michaelpsilva.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/2006WELJA0347.jpg] > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:43:27 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Where art thou, David Kirschenbaum? Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 David, can you please eMail me at cacasama@towson.edu please? Thanks! --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:44:32 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Open/Closed Systems In-Reply-To: <926467.82893.qm@web46201.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Ah, enlightenment arrives, just when we least expect it. McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 9, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Which shows you 1) don't understand open systems, 2) you don't > understand that good rules create freedom, 3) you know nothing about > my poetry, 4) you grossly misunderstand my poetics. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Paul Nelson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:13:13 AM > Subject: Re: Open/Closed Systems > > It's interesting that Troy argues for an open system in economics, > but his poetics are closed closed closed. > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328 > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 5:55:00 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > In an open system, you necessarily have to have energy coming into > and exiting from the system. As the occurs, internal order is > created -- an order that lies on the borderline of order and chaos, > also known as creative destruction. In other words, it is a self- > organizing system. It is liberals who want us to be free of burdens > and choices. Freedom does not mean that, as it cannot be separated > from responsibility. Freedom does not mean anarchy, but rather the > implementation of the best rules to make the system creative. Note > that I said "rules" and not "laws," as the former are flexible and > can be bent, but the latter are inflexible and cannot be broken. > Thus, the market is not orderless, but rather is a spontaneous > order, ordered by no one person or group of people, but emergent > from the activities of everyone. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, October 8, 2008 6:43:30 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > Not sure we've been over this point yet, but here goes: If the free > market > is "open," what does that "open" mean? "Open" to destroy us? Itself? > Free > for what? Burdens and choices? Or progress? What's "free" about it? > > I would rather it be called the "untethered" or "orderless" market, > or, > better, Amok. > > > > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 7:27 AM, steve russell > wrote: > >> Troy, 3 cheers for the unregulated, "open" economy. Your guy, Bush >> 43, & >> Greenspan have done wonders for the average wallet. Gosh, what most >> people >> wouldn't give for a little entrophy now. & besides, what economy >> isn't >> mixed. Socialism, as in sane governance/mixed economies works well >> enough, >> ain't nothing wrong with the 2 hour lunch breaks and early retirement >> favored by Joe Sixpack Frenchman in France. Seems the quality of >> life is ok >> in old Europe, meaning, avoid the East for awhile. Besides, don't >> people >> get bored with the same old motto: Produce/Produce/Produce, a >> slogan that's >> done wonders for the enviroment. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Troy Camplin >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:37:48 PM >> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math >> >> The financial crisis is not even remotely as you portray it. There >> is >> nothing in the area of finance not regulated, and anyone who told you >> otherwise was lying to you. >> >> Believing in evolution is not ideological; not believing in it is. >> Believing in a heliocentric solar system is not ideological; not >> believing >> in it is. >> Believing in the spontaneous order known as the free market system of >> economics is not ideological; not believing in it is. >> >> My anthropological approach does not excuse slavery any more than it >> excuses poverty. What it allows us to do is understand the origins of >> poverty, that it is a natural state, that wealth is new and >> something that >> we should be trying to get more people into. But wealth is not the >> natural >> state of things, and the wealth of others does not cause poverty in >> others. >> Historically, the wealth of others, especially in free market >> situations, >> allows for the wealth of others. THe world is not a zero-sum game. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 11:59:07 AM >> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math >> >> Troy, >> >> You mean "believing in a free market" is not ideological? The, only >> not >> believing in it is? That more or less sounds nonsensical to me. >> Have you >> been following the congressional hearings at all? As it is turning >> out, the >> credit swaps, which were completely unregulated and unobserved (your >> "natural" state of the world) and with a size of over forty >> trillion at the >> root of a lot of our present financial problems, were nothing but a >> casino >> in the sky, the wizard of Oz turning out to be a mountebank. >> >> As for your "anthropoligical" analysis, if we encounter slavery >> today, we >> should tolerate it because it has existed before. >> >> Ciao, >> >> Murat >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Troy Camplin >> wrote: >> >>> Just because I find the Left despicable, that doesn't mean I like >>> the >>> Right, either. False dichotomy -- as you go far enough to the >>> Right or >> the >>> Left, and they end up being the same things (Naziism and Communism >> behaved >>> almost identically). I'm a free market supporter, which isn't >>> ideological >> at >>> all, because saying you support a naturally-occurring human system >>> like >> free >>> market economies is much like saying you support the existence of >>> deserts >> in >>> the world along the 30th parallel. The pollution in the developing >>> world >> is >>> occurring not because of corporations per se, but because the >>> governments >>> there are socialist kleptocracies more interested in robbing the >>> people >> than >>> in providing the kinds of institutions (rule of law with independent >>> judiciaries, property rights protections, etc.) which have proven >> everywhere >>> they are tried to life the poor out of their poverty. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Alison Croggon >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 8:30:57 PM >>> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math >>> >>> The left is more diabolical than the right? They both have their >>> monsters. And I'm not so certain that "left" and "right" mean much >>> any >>> more (though I'm noticing an interesting nascent post-communist >>> marxism cropping up here and there). Democratic governments across >>> the >>> west are steadily heading towards police states in the service of >>> corporate power - what else is the US government about these days? >>> Is >>> Blackwater such a marvellous thing, really, that massive >>> privatisation >>> of state violence? Rampant development is probably responsible for >>> most mass species extinction, and that occurs everywhere, not just >>> in >>> the grim tips of Eastern Europe and Asia. Look at the recent figures >>> on the declining populations of common birds (or bees or frogs) >>> across >>> the globe, including the UK (where animal populations are in serious >>> decline), the US and Australia. >>> >>> And from Tamberlaine on, people have accumulated huge amounts of >>> wealth through pillaging the goods and labour of others. No mystery >>> there. Corporations are no different. All that pollution in the >>> "developing world" is our factories at work, without those pesky >>> government regulations that make it so inconvenient and expensive in >>> our own backyard. >>> >>> A >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Troy Camplin >>> wrote: >>>> Poverty is the natural state of things in the world for humans. >>>> Wealth >> is >>> what is unusual. We need to stop asking what causes poverty and ask >> instead >>> what causes wealth if we really, truly want to help the poor. >> Historically >>> it has been free markets creating wealth, not government. >>> Government has >>> historically gotten wealthy through theft and threats. You will >>> find no >>> friend of government here -- whether it is through the wrong- >>> headedness >> of >>> the welfare state or the "defense industry." The countries with the >> freest >>> markets all have the cleanest environments, while those with strong >> central >>> governments controlling everything -- the former Eastern Bloc, the >> U.S.S.R. >>> and now China -- have been the biggest polluters. Go to a city in >>> a poor >>> country and you will see unbelievable pollution everywhere. Not >>> that we >>> can't do better, as we certainly can, but the first thing we need >>> to do >> is >>> acknowledge reality in the world before we can proceed to improve >>> the >>> world. >>>> Naivety and ignorance are two very dangerous things, and cause more >> harm >>> than good. They're as dangerous as the good intentions that flow >>> out of >>> them. Good intentions minus an understanding of reality is what >>> keeps >> poor >>> people poor in this world. At least, I like to think that that's >>> what's >>> going on, because otherwise it means that the Left are diabolical. >>>> >>>> Troy Camplin >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Alison Croggon >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:13:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math >>>> >>>> Nice to know that we can leave the fate of the poor in the hands of >>>> those generous rich people, who so nicely provide jobs and >>>> housing for >>>> everyone. >>>> >>>> Now, I've got nothing personally against the rich. Or even the >>>> moderately rich. But it would be nice to see some perception of how >>>> much damage all-out corporatism and global finance has done to the >>>> lifestyles of the poor and unknown all around the globe. Not to >>>> mention the millions of species that are presently being wiped out, >>>> due to pollution and unregulated development and everything that >>>> follows on from that. Money is only interested in money. Maybe some >>>> questioning on the place of the so-called "defence" industry and >>>> its >>>> effects, politically, environmentally, socially? Or is terminal >>>> naivety the order of the day? >>>> >>>> A >>>> -- >>>> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:33:03 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Constellation: Alice Notley goes live today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Constellation: Alice Notley goes live today - a collaborative web event featuring 34 writers responding to individual Notley poems; video footage of Notley reading at Birkbeck last May; and the publication of 10 new Notley poems. Curated by Carol Watts at Birkbeck Centre for Poetics, Edmund Hardy at "Intercapillary Space" and Steve Willey and Alex Davies at Openned. Step in at http://www.bbk.ac.uk/cprc/events/alicenotleyconstellation or via the "Intercapillary Space" and Openned sites. Contributors are: Tim Allen, Caroline Bergvall, Elizabeth Bryant, Jon Clay, Jennifer Cooke, Jen Currin, Ian Davidson, Melissa Flores-Borquez, Susana Gardner, John Hall, Edmund Hardy, Ralph Hawkins, Lynne Hjelmgaard, Amy Hollowell, Sarah Hopkins, Piers Hugill, Elizabeth James, Claudia Keelan, David Kennedy, Pansy Maurer-Alvarez, Peter Middleton, Stephen Mooney, Alice Notley, Redell Olsen, Michael Peverett, Sophie Robinson, William Rowe, Lisa Samuels, Zoe Skoulding, Elizabeth Treadwell, Catherine Wagner, Steven Waling, Dana Ward, Carol Watts, Steve Willey _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:39:31 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Subject: Chicago Calling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have a final weekend of exciting programming for the Third Annual = Chicago Calling Arts Festival, and you are invited to come out!=20 Friday, October 10, 9:30 p.m. Little Black Pearl Art and Design Center 1060 E. 47th Street Chicago IL 60653 www.blackpearl.org=20 $5 suggested donation 1st set:=20 Eric Glick Rieman -- prepared Rhodes electric piano Alan Emerson Hicks -- temporal sculpture 2nd set: featuring collaborations with Alpha Bruton (visual art / Chicago), = Staajabu (poetry / Sicklerville, NJ), Caryl Henry Alexander (visual art / = Clinton, MD), Jesse Alexander (poetry / Clinton, MD), & Erin Obradovich (film / Chicago) 3rd set:=20 Ann Ward -- vocals Douglas Ewart -- saxophones, invented instruments, & percussion Eric Glick Rieman -- prepared Rhodes electric piano * * * Saturday, October 11, 4-8 a.m. This event features a live connection between WDBX (91.1 FM in = Carbondale, IL, (www.wdbx.org), and WZRD (88.3 FM, www.zap.to/wizard_wzrd). = Performers include Matt Weston (percussion), Brett Richardson (percussion, piano, accordion), Lydia Villa (percussion), Sounds Happy, aka DJ Demchuk = (circuit bent electronics), and The Family Problem.=20 * * * Saturday, October 11, 7 p.m. Heaven Gallery 1550 N. Milwaukee Ave., 2nd floor Chicago, IL www.heavengallery.com=20 $10 suggested donation 1st set:=20 Hamadal Issoufou -- guitar, gouroumi Bill MacKay -- guitar Jamie Topper -- percussion 2nd set:=20 Jeff Albert -- trombone Ian Ash -- mallet controller James Falzone -- clarinet Dan Godston -- trumpet Matthew Golombisky -- upright bass Marcus Evans -- drums 3rd set:=20 Dave Rempis -- saxophone Jeff Albert -- trombone 4th set:=20 Ren=E9e Baker -- violin David Boykin -- saxophones Eric Glick Rieman -- prepared Rhodes electric piano * * * Sunday, October 12, 2 p.m. Mess Hall 6932 North Glenwood Avenue Chicago, IL 60626 773.465.4033 www.messhall.org=20 free & open to the public Elizabeth Marino (poetry / Chicago) & Eneida Martino (poetry / New York) Irene P=E9rez, Anni Holm, & Lindsay Obermeyer -- knitted =93exquisite = corpse=94 performance creation Allan Johnston (poetry) & Orin Buck (visual art)=20 Matthias Regan (poetry) & Topher Hemann (poetry) Elizabeth Harper (poetry / Chicago) & Fluffy Singler (poetry / = Minneapolis) Scott McFarland -- poetry Wayne Allen Jones (poetry) & Michael Springate (poetry)=20 Rachel Javellana (poetry / Chicago) & Nora Bonner (poetry / Thailand)=20 Donna Kiser (poetry), Mayi Ojusua (visual art), Debra Lottman = (movement), & Kenneth Hillard (sculpture) =93The Muse of Poetry=94: a presentation by Amanda Lichtenstein = (Chicago) & Shoshanna Utchenik (Slovenia) Donna Pecore -- poetry Ira Murfin (poetry / Chicago) & Aaron Kahn (poetry / Paris) Eric Elshtain (poetry) & Gregory Fraser (poetry) John Beer (poetry) & Judith Goldman (poetry) Paul Wood (poetry / Maui) & Dan Godston (music / Chicago) This event was funded in part by Poets & Writers, Inc. through a grant = it has received from an anonymous donor. * * * Sunday, October 12, 7 p.m. AV-aerie 2000 W. Fulton, #310 Chicago IL 60612 312.342.6280 http://av-aerie.org=20 $10 suggested donation a collaborative performance project with Lisa Abbatomarco (Chicago) & = Laura Evonne Steinman, Brianna, David, Mike Jaymee, & Nick (Weston, MA) Carol Genetti (voice) & Alice Hui-Sheng Chang (voice) Dave Awl (poetry / Chicago), collaborating with Ayun Halliday (poetry / Brooklyn) & Corbin Collins (poetry / Ireland) Na Zhom Bwha (Look at Me!) -- composition for solo vocal / movement performer a collaboration between Chicago choreographer / dancer Rachel Thorne = Germond & New York City based composer Insook Choi Ditch Pigs: Miss Lady J, Suzy Sunshine, & Asil Regnimmeh music, film & poetry: Williwaw (amplified ukulele), Rona Mark (video), = Annie Heckman (video), Regina Baiocchi (poetry), Jon Godston (soprano = saxophone), Elizabeth Louise Burch (video), Suree Towfighnia (video), Ben Billington (drums), Nia Freshman (video), & Jon Satrom (video) $2 Cockroach featuring Sid Yiddish (Chicago), collaborating with Clean = Boys (Denmark) www.chicagocalling.org=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:05:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Alan: I don't know if you read the entire piece as it is linked to-- I am NOT denying "the freedom and fancy" of this particular anthology nor of any other. In fact I am *fighting for the Freedom* of ever more Anthologies to exist and to continue to exist. I think you misunderstand what I am writing and in turn deny it its own "freedom and fancy" and refuse to understand it's point by lumping it with beings going to Heaven and Mormons, etc. in the tone of mockery used to consign actual ideas to the dustbins of rubbish of religions the enlightened writer and audeince take to be superstitions, and so present the ideas as nothing more than a kind of debased and laughably "irrational" concept. "Sad but true, folks, "sighs the Wise Sheriff, reassuring the anxious populace, "all the monkeys ain't at the Zoo! But don't you worry, we'll catch'im, this dee-ranged fella. Can't have no smart ass Simians disturbing the sleep of the Just, now can we?" In the part of the piece that appeared here some days ago and is linked to, one of the points is how many lists a person is already on by virtue of the Internet, how much information about anyone is so easily available, and as well how easy it is to fabricate information and "evidence," plant false stories, alter encyclopedia entries, create distransaltions of poems, news stories, reports, essays. Photos and videos, voice recordings, everything is malleable. The War in Iraq was stated with "proofs" that were known-to-forged letters and information from an extremely dubious informant, whose evidence, as I gave an example of, when "proved" by images on line, was in reality only using the same images on line that the informant had used to offer as "proofs." Since one of my ongoing projects is "The New Extreme Experimental American Poetry and Arts," I am simply using my own "freedom and fancy" to further examine the rnage of possiblities of the Anthology's mixing of "fake" poems with "real poets' names" in terms of the ways in which "fake" evidence may be used to round up "real" suspects. Or, to create "fake" suspects using programs producing from already available information "profiles" which make them seem in terms of the new laws to be "real" threats and so worthy of apprehension. Now, from the point of view of a proud Commandant of a First Class prison in which there is a cross section of various profiled "types," is it not possible that this person might not speak of his assembled "detainees" as not simply a "collection," but an Anthology of the various kinds of "profiles in terrorism?" You see--there is a gallows humor in all this you are missing. I think perhaps what disturbs you may be that for the most part the use of the Internet and programs in connection with projects is considered from a "freedom and fancy" perspective while ignoring the immense and often already actual possibilities for the dystopian uses of exactly the same methods and media and techniques with which such an Anthology may be produced. That is, I am using all these examples and questions imaginatively, in order to say--how the Freedom underlying the production of things filled with "freedom and fancy" is threatened by the very techonolgies and methods which it uses. If this is evidence of religious superstion of some kind to you, perhaps it is because you might want to dney this? I do not know-- And, also, I think that there is for a very long now the separation of the artistic "avant-garde" from its originary connection with the military in the term "avant-garde" itself. By this separation, it is easy to make onself believe that there is no connection among things such as poetic and military productions which share the same technolgoies and often very simlar methods of "composition." In the "New Extreme Experimental " works I write of, invented, imagined and actual also, I make use of "real events" and examples along with my own inventions and terms from poetry and literature to restore a connection between these two--the military and artistic avant-garde. My point is that a great deal of what happens today, is kept separated, so that the right hand is to not admit to what the left hand is doing. My enquiry is to look into the ways in which every aspect of a society is part of its overall system, rather than being discrete parts from which one may pretend to detach oneself from those one refuses to acknowledge, while championing those that one does. The project I am working on has at its very heart Freedom, and investigating how it is threatened, and how often what in one area is seen as a thing of "freedom and fancy" can as easily function in the overlapping area in the same society for uses which deny any freedom and fancy. I have cited the quote before, but repeat it as it provides one of the keys to my project: In the first lines of his Introduction to Torture: Cancer of Democracy France and Algeria 1954-62, Pierre Vidal-Naquet asks "Can a great nation, liberal by tradition, allows its institutions, its army, and its system of justice to degenerate over the span of a few years as a result of the use of torture, and by its concealment and deception of such a vital issue call the whole Western concept of human dignity and the rights of the individual into question?" I think that by extending the terms and tropes of poetry and literature beyond their own area and into those of the political and military, and vice versa, by investigating their ways of being used to create this new form of poetry which I invent and imagine, and discover as I go along, , I am creating an ongoing "panorama" as it were of a literature which exists and is hidden in plain site/sight/cite as there is a refusal for the most part to make any connections among any of these events in the world and events on the page or in virtuality. That is, that for most part, the society practices a deliberate self-deception which qucikly calcifies into a recieved wisdom, and makes it nearly taboo to question any of its practices and assertions and theories, as these themselves are the outgrowths of an inital self-deception. I am working with the Fake that already exists, and the Real that is Faked, as well as with information from many sources, texts, and yes, lists, anthologies, compendiums, the Internet and the library and the daily news in all different media, and using with these works from poetry and writing, cinema and painting, to create a work that is both imaginative and critical, a critique and and an investigation and into enquiry into "findings." These writings are supplemented by the ongoing series of stories featuring the character called "El Colonel," which go much further into the "literary" realms of many of these questions and turn into themselves investigations of the :"literary" and many questions of "conceptual" literature and the like. All of these actualites are the source for fictions, as are all the fictions and fakes sources for many actually occurring events. I am not al denying the "freedom and fancy" of this particular project, but extending it much further, that is, I have been before it came along already going much further in many of these areas. I think that the misunderstanding and rejection of what I am writing is that it proposes a different approach in which one is taking theory and using it with things that are actually occuring in the world and examining these in terms of the languages they employ in order to present themselves. In a sense, a convention of the "seperated" avant-garde today is to use words very often as if they have no meanings and consequences. This is fine if it is limited to a predefined area, yet once out of there, everything changes swfitly and who controls meanings and who performs consequnces becomes quite another matter to say the least. Again, part of the fear in your criticism of my ideas is that perhaps I suggest underatking a much different investigation into the nature of what is meant by "language experiments," and "experimental writing," that is, I propose extending what is understood as writing and as experiment on a vaster scale and sphere of action than one perhaps more limited to the areana of "language games." It is not even that I propose any such thing--it already exists all around one, and in order to understand it, one needs to accept that all kinds of workers in language exist as well as poets and writers, and that all of these may be engaged in their own various ways on projects which might be approached more "subversively" so to speak by using some of the methods and terms of poetic and literary theory, not for creating further abstractions and theories, but for creating works of imagination and imaginative critique which help make visible those things which are either concealed or deliberately overlooked, go unseen on purpose in a society such as the US is today. In a sense, for myself, when you mock such ideas, all it does is exhibit that you have a belief in and support of the status quo. That's fine with me if you choose this route, all I ask is that you respect my right to follow mine. I think that with the Anthology what you are defending is a kind of conventional idea of the "freedom of the web." Due to its manner of presentation, for you, there occurs in the Anthology the feat of separation, in which it is agreed that in some areas, any kind of intrusion of such things as the disinformation, surveillance, coercive, constraining, capturing aspects of the Internet are denied in favor of only the "fun" aspects. And the same with separating the idea of Anthology from a gallows humor in which it is proposed that some jailer might look about at the cells of detainees and say--ah!! my Anthology of the faces and persons and words of terrorists!" And, after all, are there not the Poems from Guantanamo anthology, or the writings of Roberto Bolano about poetry and Chile's fascist era under Pincohet among a great many others in which these things are seen as united? That is, that poetry and torture are not seperated, but part of the same system, co-existing? And that even within that system, some forms of "freedom and fancy" are allowed, while, of course, several others are not. Until very recently, there has been very little in the American arts and writing that has examined at all what the open use of torture by this society means, in the sense that Vida-Naquet is writing of. What are the effects and behaviours of the language itself of a society which makes use of torture, which supports Apartheid, which is genociding the Iraqi people, which is threatening to continue to widen the scope of Wars which are annihilating its own economy and people? How does such a society remain so quiet in so many areas about what it is doing and what is happening to it? Why the kinds of taboos which Vidla-Naquet observed in France, a nation which had only recently had its own citizens tortured while being Occupied? Why is it that you accuse me of "denying the freedom and fancy" of an Anthology when I haven't at all done this, but think of it as a part of a vast parade of projects investigating similar aspects of some of the much larger overlapping areas I propose to examine? Why do you say that project has "freedom and fancy" and in a sense deny mine this, and mock it with allusions that are distasteful to yourself? Is this its own form of a "Homeland Security," conducted in order to protect said Security from too many questions, ideas, imaginings, findings? Does this mean that only a few persons are allowed to have dominion over what is considered to be "aceptable practice" within a confined realm of writing? And is not that in a sense constructing its own small sytem of prisons or gulags or exiles for that particualr aspect of writing? If one is not allowed to question or have a different "take" or come up with "alternative ideas"----then how much freedom and fancy is there really being allowed to happen? If one is truly concerned about Freedom, is it not necessary to go beyond the happy faces of the received ideas and conformism-by-consensus acceptances of what constitutes projects which are "good, healthy examples" of "freedom and fancy" and question how it is that those same methods that create happy faces can be used to create torture cells? Is the web so "free" as one is continually being told, so much a vast gateway to the wondrous new experimental poetries of the future, riding a wave of hyper texts into a spectacular simulated sunset? Or is it not also a tool which may be used to assemble information, create disinformation and target anyone and everyone in some way that is useful to the ends of someone else, whether it is Amazon keeping track of its "preferred customers' interests," or a covert operation tracking the daily shopping routes of a young mother suspected to be purchasing chemicals at the store along with the baby formula, chemicals that someone claims are going to be used for a suspected or framed up plot to incinerate some gated community, some private plane, some local Mosque? Right now, people are detained and being readied for trials in Minnesota as "terrorists"--and their act of "terrorism?" Demonstrating at the Republican National Convention. Under al the new laws passed in such a hurry and subtly attached as small riders to much larger pork barrels through the years since the First Patriot Act, it is now possible to try people for things no one would ever have thought possible, and to punish them for these, too. The State makes use of the threats of "terrorism" to cerate its own Terror, a Terror which it calls for "one's own good," Security. One of the functions of Security in a sense is to perform the kind of operation one does in separating what is a project that is full of "freedom and fancy" from one that is full of the kinds of things I write of. Ironically, your not understanding my project misses the point that my project is all about there being the Freedom for works of "freedom and fancy" to continue to exist. I write out of personal experience with many of things I present, as well as with imagination and invention, and a continual research into the information, history, backgrounds and literatures of the subjects I make use of. At one level there are "language games." At another level are the areas where language is weaponry, manipulation, propaganda, deception, provocation, control, and also torture, life and death. Both need to be thought, and not separately,as you are advocating, but as two sides of the same coin. It's saddening that you don't understand my project, and that in a sense advocate a conventional wisdom which is to "play it safe" as it were by playing "language games" and not investigating any further what language, technology and their consequences may be, beyond the realm of language games. If there is to be freedom and fancy, why not think of how this is existing because some are concerned about the freedom in the world to actually be able to create Anthologies of this sort? In a sense, what you are saying is that, as in George Orwell's Animal Farm, "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." That is, one idea of Anthologies is Good, and any investigations of my sort are Bad. Therefore, "freedom and fancy" are considered the "pastures of plenty" for some, and for others--get rid of them, pay no attention, etc. Or, perhaps, there is a line being drawn between allowing "fancy" but not Imagination? How does one in fact legislate Imagination? One method you used already is to mock it, and say it is a threat to "freedom and fancy." In an implicit sense is this not saying figuratively--lock that guy up! Shut him up! Or simply--don't listen, it is too far out there to be considered. Which is precisely one of the points I am trying to make, that things considered "too far out there" are already happening, and that too little note is being taken of them at all. One may delude oneself with freedom and fancy and at the same time have freedom like an old rug be pulled out from underneath one without even noticing, so rapt is one in the delusions, or the distractions, the entertainments as it were. You see? Without fighting for the old rug of Freedom, there isn't going to always be "freedom and fancy" to play with, if some have their way. And what, after all, is not "enhanced interrogation" but an "experiment in language, in the body of the text, in the production of language out of the body--" The same electricity running the computers for our conversation is powering the wires which are used to torture someone somewhere during this very same time-- Have you ever seen the convulsive dance of the "Body Electric?"-- Just imagine the day when such interrogation can be conducted via computers--directions given from a modem in a city thousands of miles from the on-screen prisoner-- and a jolly party of invited guests having some wine and cheese and discussing the aesthetico-linguistic mastery of the keyboard torturer's control and manipulation of the "Body Electric" as it dances and sings and spouts sound poetry for the benefit of the acute and enlightened art theorists and critics, the literary theorists present, and the poets who see before them the Theater of the future, a new form of Puppet Theater! The Marionette wires being those carrying electrodes attached to different pressure points and tender spots, and making the movements of the gesturing puppet before them seem oh so very lifelike, and at the same time so puppet like!! As it dances its way along the paths of the Dance of Death. You see, there is literally a "connection" which "runs through" all these things even as we converse-! I hope that you may understand that my project is not at all what you think it is. I often wonder if what I write is understood or not, if it is even noticed to begin with, and, if often it is very hard to be understood becuase all the training that one is gievn is to not believe in the things I write of, even when one may give al the examples of it happening in front of people everyday. The problem is that those things one believes in, is trained al one's life in a society to believe in, do not exist--the soceity long since has dispensed with them. They may exist symbolically, and in language, and as things people trumpet about and convince themselves are the foundations of their thought--and al of this is manipulated by those who would like one to continue to believe in all of this. If in order to believe in it, one has to steadily readjust onself through time to the ever shifting meanings of words as they make room for ever more things thought impossible in the system before--since one has fought to make a place in that society, one goes along with it. Yet all the same, the gap between what words are saying and what they are doing grows larger and larger. The greater the gaps are, the harder it is to "connect the words and actions"--such as simply re-connecting the military and artistic meaning of "avant-garde" in order to findout what this may lead to, and to help in understanding why the avant-garde functions quite differently once it has abandoned that early connection, which Italian Futurism embraced and Dada was so "violently" opposed to On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, David Chirot wrote: > > > I always like your writing, but this is really pushing it; you might > reverse things and say that anthologies are based on those who go to heaven > and therefore are blessed, not prisons but openings; certainly the Mormon > archives tends towards this. > > You're using [anthology] I think and by stating this "Innocuous, that is, > unless" seems a kind of problematic baiting that ignores in fact the freedom > and fancy of the particular anthology under question. > > You then jump to cells and terrorism, and for me, this jump is a kind of > cell or terror itself, not the thing itself, but an accumulated surplus; for > me if we're going this route, I'll take Mormon. > > But then I've edited a number of anthologies. > > - Alan > > >> Innocuous, that is, unless one begins to think of anthologies themselves >> as >> another form of prison-creation, or prisons as another form of anthology >> making. >> >> After all, the throwing together of a seemingly "loosely associated" group >> of people under one rubric might seem to designate the persons named and >> assembled thereby as a "movement," a "trend," or even a "terrorist cadre," >> made up of several interlinked "sleeper cells." Even if the various >> "cells" >> are unknown to each other, by showing them to be linked in some way by the >> over riding theme of the Anthology, one has created of them an overall >> face >> & effect of "Terror," and "Alert," or of a new kind of poetry "that bears >> watching in the future." >> >> Since critics and agents often share the same goals of uncovering "secret" >> analogies, "hidden" symbolisms,"traces of fragments of the palimpsests of >> previous plots," and so forth--it seems quite possible that a critic could >> turn out to be an "undercover" agent--seeking for what is indeed "between >> the covers of the book," as, after all, the agent/critic continually >> reminds >> one, "you can't judge a book by the cover." And that person who claims to >> be >> an agent in the field working for the government might well turn out after >> all to be no more than just another critic desperately hunting for the >> next >> "great and sobering poetic discovery," the next "pre-teen prodigy of >> poesy." >> or "the latest previously unknown towering genius, all these years lost in >> the back lands, hidden among the knitting and the sheep." >> >> Whoever they are, whatever they are up to, the Internet, so rife with >> names >> and information about the names, is a regular Happy Hunting ground beyond >> the wildest dreams of Ernest Hemingway set loose in a Protected Wild Life >> preserve for those who are hot on the heels of compiling Anthologies, let >> alone filling prisons, or committing kidnappings for huge ransoms, or >> uncovering the Babylonian origins of the Sicilian Code. >> >> So here are some thoughts addressed to this topic-- >> to while away the time of one's sentence-- >> a continually postponed hearing-- >> where death row and publisher's row >> are the same place >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> > > > > ========================================================================== > > To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > > Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > > sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > > ========================================================================== > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:50:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Elshtain Subject: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The great and tawdry paradox of the pseudo-hoaxy "fake anthology" is that while the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic statement against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a machine can do it, then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is the primary intent of the project) it, the project, must LEGITIMiZE ITSELF by pretending to be human!? In that, the whole project feels like a sham on the face of it. Let alone that fact that the "sophisticated algorithm" does nothing that hasn't been done already by poetry-generating programs dating from the 1970s (Racter, for one) and even earlier. It's not at all that difficult to get a computer to spew out free verse using source texts based on some form of Markov Chain or other stochastic logic, nor is it that difficult, in the open field that is poetry, to hit upon a few machine-assisted poems that read, in style, like poetry written by mere humans. Joshua Kotin wrote a trim essay a few years back on this very subject: what are the implications of a poetic "style" if a computer can successfully mimic that style? So, yes, machine assisted poetry raises very interesting questions about poetic origin, readership, authorship, &c but without the need for clap-trap one- upmanship (one-upmachineship??) and thumbing one's nose at human-only poetries. Let machine poetry be machine poetry! Let computer-assisted poetry be just that--another tool in the procedural verse tool box. It's a shame to reduce machine-assisted poetry to the level of a bad joke. Also--can anyone else use this software? Can we see the code? Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:07:28 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Edmund Hardy Subject: Constellation: Alice Notley In-Reply-To: <9db3e7290810101055v3c257369td6bf1f92b462fd67@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All=2C =20 Constellation: Alice Notley goes live today - a collaborative web event fea= turing=20 34 writers responding to individual Notley poems=3B video footage of Notley= reading=20 at Birkbeck (London) last May=3B and the publication of 10 new Notley poems= . Curated by Carol Watts at Birkbeck Centre for Poetics=2C Edmund Hardy at "I= ntercapillary=20 Space" and Steve Willey and Alex Davies at Openned. Step in at=20 http://www.bbk.ac.uk/cprc/events/alicenotleyconstellation or via the=20 "Intercapillary Space" and Openned sites. Contributors are: Tim Allen=2C Caroline Bergvall=2C Elizabeth Bryant=2C Jon= Clay=2C Jennifer Cooke=2C Jen Currin=2C Ian Davidson=2C Melissa Flores-Borquez=2C S= usana Gardner=2C John=20 Hall=2C Edmund Hardy=2C Ralph Hawkins=2C Lynne Hjelmgaard=2C Amy Hollowell= =2C Sarah Hopkins=2C Piers Hugill=2C Elizabeth James=2C Claudia Keelan=2C David Kennedy=2C Pansy= Maurer-Alvarez=2C Peter Middleton=2C Stephen Mooney=2C Alice Notley=2C Redell Olsen=2C Michae= l Peverett=2C Sophie Robinson=2C William Rowe=2C Lisa Samuels=2C Zoe Skoulding=2C Elizabe= th Treadwell=2C Catherine Wagner=2C Steven Waling=2C Dana Ward=2C Carol Watts=2C Steve Will= ey _________________________________________________________________ Make a mini you and download it into Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354029/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:34:20 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: "Go Rimbaud": Richard Hell's review of Edmund White's new, brief bio of the pot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BOOKS / SUNDAY BOOK REVIEW=20 =20 | October 12=2C 2008 I Is Another By RICHARD HELL Edmund White's capsule biography of Rimbaud=2C poetry's enfant terrible. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/books/review/Hell-t.html?ei=3D5070&emc=3D= eta1 _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie= . http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:54:11 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Luke, I didn't turn on to poetry until I was in my first year of college.=A0 I ha= d begun to write short stories during my senior year of high school, and be= fore that, years of being exposed to "accessible poetry" bored me.=A0 That = sort of poetry didn't register much, except to scare me in a class because = my southern ear couldn't count meter "correctly" in a more northerly classr= oom.=A0 I wonder if you might be doing students an injustice -- the one tha= t so many high school teachers perpetuate every year -- by limiting this li= st to whatever you count as accessible.=A0 Here, I imagine the type of poet= ry which allows for simple, usually morally-driven meanings such as Frost's= roads and fences or the few fun 'obvious' Dickinson poems anthologized ad = nauseum.=A0=20 These kinds of poems deliver college students up who yawn at the thought of= poetry or are ready to run because they too have been taught the tangibles= such as counting meter and identifying smilies versus metaphors and kinds = of rhymes.=A0 And they really loathe the abstract morals such poems drive h= ome, only a little more than the story books that told them to share and be= kind, etc.=A0 Nothing wrong with those lessons, but I fear poetry is not t= he medium for reduction and easy pleasing/teaching.=A0 We also do poetry an= injustice and the young people being introduced to it by pretending it is = all simple and fun - kind of like raising suspicions that there's some evil= medicine within the spoonful of sugar we're trying to get them to swallow.= =A0 And I think there may be in that particular spoonful.=A0=20 Good luck with the list, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Luke Schlueter wrote= : From: Luke Schlueter Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 7:38 AM Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate your suggestions and comments. You = may be interested to know that this list isn't just a pet project. It will be a sublist in a much more comprehensive literature booklist that is currently = being produced/put together by a reading institute that I work for ( Also, which = is neither here nor there, in teach a few writing/lit. classes a semester at t= he local university). The booklist is intended to be utilized by adults who wo= uld like some guidance in advancing their education and reading. Originally the booklist wasn't going to have a poetry section, but I successfully argued that, given exposure to rich, meaningful, accessible poetry, there is as mu= ch likelihood as not that the newly engaged reader might spend at least some t= ime reading poetry as part of their daily (weekly?) reading diet. You can see t= hat this invites all sort of questions about the current relationship between p= oetry and the reading public. In light of the fact that the booklist will go out = to some 10,000 adults a year, my hope is to influence some modest number to re-think their attitudes about and engagement with poetry. =20 Thanks again. Now I have to go read the poets you mention that I'm not familiar with! =20 Luke =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:11:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Excited for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Well, let's see, I'm 1) not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so it would be impossible for me to be a fascist. The only inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the Left, whose thoughts have certainly fossilized over the years. Of course, that is because of their strong aversion to poetry, as demonstrated by the "poets" on the postmodern Left (which in fact has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism both). Being flexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in school, nor is it believing just anything any everything. Open-mindedness and being willing to change your mind based on a change in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so open-minded your brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything, no. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Roy Exley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM Subject: Re: Excited for the math Dear Troy Camplin, Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place - I sense there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem to be attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have demonstrated more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not politics, (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics without poetry is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:19:46 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andy Nicholson Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: <452301.12755.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Luke, While I became obsessed with poetry earlier in my life than Amy, I had a similar experience. On the whole, "accessible" poetry pushed me away from a genre that was beginning to pique my interest and "difficult" poetry that drew me in. A book like Tender Buttons excited me because it didn't ask me to decode the poem and reduce it to a pithy message, an impoverishing experience that makes so many high school English student run from all writing, but it asked me to simply read the words on the page, to experience them, and to intuitively respond to them: I had finally found a poetry that asked me to enjoy the reading of poetry. I understand that my experience might not be typical, but please consider putting "difficult" writers like Stein, Jack Spicer (is he considered "difficult"?), and John Yau (whose humor can be a real draw) on your list. But as far as the sort of poets for whom you originally asked, I haven't heard Helen Adam mentioned yet. Her poems often relate to folk murder ballads in a way that can easily be called fun. Also, I'm not sure if James Schuyler has been mentioned. His poems have are intoxicatingly lush (beautiful vowels, colors, the feel of the daydream), and his lyric usually has an easily identifiable subject or narrative. And how about Joseph Ceravolo? His lyricism might feel a tad hermetic to some readers, but so many younger poets, including myself, are drawn to this too often overlooked poet that you might consider him as a poet who speaks to our moment. I hope this helps, Andy http://andynicholson.blogspot.com/ On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:54 PM, amy king wrote: > Hi Luke, > > I didn't turn on to poetry until I was in my first year of college. I had begun to write short stories during my senior year of high school, and before that, years of being exposed to "accessible poetry" bored me. That sort of poetry didn't register much, except to scare me in a class because my southern ear couldn't count meter "correctly" in a more northerly classroom. I wonder if you might be doing students an injustice -- the one that so many high school teachers perpetuate every year -- by limiting this list to whatever you count as accessible. Here, I imagine the type of poetry which allows for simple, usually morally-driven meanings such as Frost's roads and fences or the few fun 'obvious' Dickinson poems anthologized ad nauseum. > > These kinds of poems deliver college students up who yawn at the thought of poetry or are ready to run because they too have been taught the tangibles such as counting meter and identifying smilies versus metaphors and kinds of rhymes. And they really loathe the abstract morals such poems drive home, only a little more than the story books that told them to share and be kind, etc. Nothing wrong with those lessons, but I fear poetry is not the medium for reduction and easy pleasing/teaching. We also do poetry an injustice and the young people being introduced to it by pretending it is all simple and fun - kind of like raising suspicions that there's some evil medicine within the spoonful of sugar we're trying to get them to swallow. And I think there may be in that particular spoonful. > > Good luck with the list, > > Amy > > > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Luke Schlueter wrote: > From: Luke Schlueter > Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 7:38 AM > > Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate your suggestions and comments. You may > be interested to know that this list isn't just a pet project. It will be a > sublist in a much more comprehensive literature booklist that is currently being > produced/put together by a reading institute that I work for ( Also, which is > neither here nor there, in teach a few writing/lit. classes a semester at the > local university). The booklist is intended to be utilized by adults who would > like some guidance in advancing their education and reading. Originally the > booklist wasn't going to have a poetry section, but I successfully argued > that, given exposure to rich, meaningful, accessible poetry, there is as much > likelihood as not that the newly engaged reader might spend at least some time > reading poetry as part of their daily (weekly?) reading diet. You can see that > this invites all sort of questions about the current relationship between poetry > and the reading public. In light of the fact that the booklist will go out to > some 10,000 adults a year, my hope is to influence some modest number to > re-think their attitudes about and engagement with poetry. > > Thanks again. Now I have to go read the poets you mention that I'm not > familiar with! > > Luke > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's funny, Andy --- primarily because it was while reading Gertrude Stei= n over the phone to friends during my freshman year, as a "joke", that I be= came deeply interested in poetry.=A0 This experience might be more common t= han we think ...=20 Be well, Amy =A0=20 --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Andy Nicholson wrote: From: Andy Nicholson Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 6:19 PM Luke, While I became obsessed with poetry earlier in my life than Amy, I had a similar experience. On the whole, "accessible" poetry pushed me away from a genre that was beginning to pique my interest and "difficult" poetry that drew me in. A book like Tender Buttons excited me because it didn't ask me to decode the poem and reduce it to a pithy message, an impoverishing experience that makes so many high school English student run from all writing, but it asked me to simply read the words on the page, to experience them, and to intuitively respond to them: I had finally found a poetry that asked me to enjoy the reading of poetry. I understand that my experience might not be typical, but please consider putting "difficult" writers like Stein, Jack Spicer (is he considered "difficult"?), and John Yau (whose humor can be a real draw) on your list. But as far as the sort of poets for whom you originally asked, I haven't heard Helen Adam mentioned yet. Her poems often relate to folk murder ballads in a way that can easily be called fun. Also, I'm not sure if James Schuyler has been mentioned. His poems have are intoxicatingly lush (beautiful vowels, colors, the feel of the daydream), and his lyric usually has an easily identifiable subject or narrative. And how about Joseph Ceravolo? His lyricism might feel a tad hermetic to some readers, but so many younger poets, including myself, are drawn to this too often overlooked poet that you might consider him as a poet who speaks to our moment. I hope this helps, Andy http://andynicholson.blogspot.com/ On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:54 PM, amy king wrote: > Hi Luke, > > I didn't turn on to poetry until I was in my first year of college. I had begun to write short stories during my senior year of high school, and before that, years of being exposed to "accessible poetry" bored me.=20 That sort of poetry didn't register much, except to scare me in a class because my southern ear couldn't count meter "correctly" in a more northerly classroom. I wonder if you might be doing students an injustice = -- the one that so many high school teachers perpetuate every year -- by limit= ing this list to whatever you count as accessible. Here, I imagine the type of poetry which allows for simple, usually morally-driven meanings such as Frost's roads and fences or the few fun 'obvious' Dickinson poems anthologized ad nauseum. > > These kinds of poems deliver college students up who yawn at the thought of poetry or are ready to run because they too have been taught the tangibl= es such as counting meter and identifying smilies versus metaphors and kinds o= f rhymes. And they really loathe the abstract morals such poems drive home, = only a little more than the story books that told them to share and be kind, etc= .=20 Nothing wrong with those lessons, but I fear poetry is not the medium for reduction and easy pleasing/teaching. We also do poetry an injustice and t= he young people being introduced to it by pretending it is all simple and fun = - kind of like raising suspicions that there's some evil medicine within the spoonful of sugar we're trying to get them to swallow. And I think there may be in that particular spoonful. > > Good luck with the list, > > Amy > > > > _______ > > > > > > Recent work > > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Luke Schlueter wrote: > From: Luke Schlueter > Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 7:38 AM > > Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate your suggestions and comments. Yo= u may > be interested to know that this list isn't just a pet project. It will be a > sublist in a much more comprehensive literature booklist that is currentl= y being > produced/put together by a reading institute that I work for ( Also, whic= h is > neither here nor there, in teach a few writing/lit. classes a semester at the > local university). The booklist is intended to be utilized by adults who would > like some guidance in advancing their education and reading. Originally the > booklist wasn't going to have a poetry section, but I successfully argued > that, given exposure to rich, meaningful, accessible poetry, there is as much > likelihood as not that the newly engaged reader might spend at least some time > reading poetry as part of their daily (weekly?) reading diet. You can see that > this invites all sort of questions about the current relationship between poetry > and the reading public. In light of the fact that the booklist will go ou= t to > some 10,000 adults a year, my hope is to influence some modest number to > re-think their attitudes about and engagement with poetry. > > Thanks again. Now I have to go read the poets you mention that I'm not > familiar with! > > Luke > > =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:19:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Whew, first I hardly support the status quo; second I wasn't mocking your ideas; third I appreciate your reply; fourth you should be aware of my work at least to the extent of knowing it deals precisely with larger contextualizations, not just political or philosophical (which in fact is one of the reasons most of my posts aren't accepted here); fifth, I don't know what 'freedom of the web is' - when I've taught the net etc. I've gone over the territory you describe in detail but - in relation to this anthology, I find the approach heavy-handed, your agenda - which I largely agree with - crushing the work/s as thing/s in itself/themselves, in other words looking at the work and giving it room to breathe. And what happens too often on this list is a hypostatization of the preciousness of the proper name, as if all kinds were natural, so that any possibility of celebrating what might be seen as alternative communities and their inhering even in these dark times is lost, which makes the times darker. I think of alternative universes or discourses of poetry/poetics in which these very names might be attached to all sorts of writings, and while some people have pointed to identity theft, this is hardly the case any more than if I call a name on the street for proper or mistaken identity, that is no one will take the "Alan Sondheim" poem for my work for example who has ever read either my work or any of the other works in the anthology. It's interesting and depressing that you and Catherine I think both bring up torture as if there's a theoretical lineage between the antghology and that sort of violence and again, I see these lineages as suspect in the same way as Ayers/Obama is suspect, yes, but for example, although I may be guilty of misreading. So from Issue I and relatiely innocuous generated poetry to torture for me is problematic. You mention language games; I have no interest in them and never had, nor have I had interest in language poetry, just to set the record straight. I'm not doubting your project or your personal experience, I hope any more than you're doubting mine. But I think when [x] whatever comes along it doesn't have to fit into either your worldview or ideas or mine and that maybe the best approach is not to do that, not that I have any real say or taste in the matter. I do read a great deal of what you write, including this long piece, which I appreciate - I can't write that much or reply to the whole thing unfortunately - I just think in this case the relation of torture etc. to this is misguided and certainly takes the joy and wonder out of reading such an anthology, although "such an" is meaningless since this was the first at least to create such a commotion on the list. Now Yasusada did, but Johnson was pushing the political there as well as the proper name and a phenomenology of authenticity, for me Adorno comes to mind, but this is different, and for me one of the major aesthetic categories - if not the major one - and again I'm speaking only for myself - is wonder, and wonder appears in the sense that Merleau-Ponty speaks of Cezanne - James Elroy uses the term as well in a similar sense - and this moves me, and the anthology moves me, and I think moving in the direction of torture (which can be done with anything or anyone, this movement and that is a problem of function and/or structure) just, for me takes the joy out of the thing, and I want that. This doesn't mean I'm not political or politically active, but that I worry about seeing the world always through the same lens, which is what it would mean for me. - Alan ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:02:11 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Excited for the math In-Reply-To: <422957.48661.qm@web46212.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed attributing the ideas of the opposition soley to the mindless acceptance of dogma (an epistemology that knows no political allegiance) rather than accepting that reasonable people can differ greatly on fundamental principles of politics and economics is the root cause of close-mindedness. without taking opposing viewpoints seriously, which clearly you do not given both your dismissal of the opposition as worthy of the title and your obvious ignorance of the arguments in favor of progressive democratic principles, a claim to open mindedness is absurd. I am pointing this out to you not because I want to insult you, although I grant that saying this about someone is insulting, but because i don't think you realize quite how absurd your claims are and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would like to avoid such errors in the future. I would also like to point out that what you may not also realize is that your incendiary behavior and ocmments may have the opposite effect that you intend. In my own case, i found myself a center left classical liberal driven to the left looking for political allegiance thanks to the ignorance and tactical foulplay that's come from the right over the last ten to fifteen years. In other words, the kind of absurdity on display in your attitudes sir are precisely the sort of thing that radicalized me. it had nothing to do with my college professors. On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Well, let's see, I'm 1) not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so it would be impossible for me to be a fascist. The only inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the Left, whose thoughts have certainly fossilized over the years. Of course, that is because of their strong aversion to poetry, as demonstrated by the "poets" on the postmodern Left (which in fact has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism both). Being flexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in school, nor is it believing just anything any everything. Open-mindedness and being willing to change your mind based on a change in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so open-minded your brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything, no. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Roy Exley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM > Subject: Re: Excited for the math > > Dear Troy Camplin, > > Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place - I sense > there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem to be > attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have demonstrated > more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to > fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not politics, > (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics without poetry > is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:11:59 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Organization: KAURAB Subject: fake anthology :: flawless fakeness ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't been following the fake anthology thread. missed the first dozen emails, picking up the thread thereafter didn't make much sense. a poet friend (not fake) from outside the listserv called today to talk about this unique project. he said - you are there. curiously amused I took my first peek at it. well.....funny. the fakeness seems to have logical cracks in it, at least one. I have two poems in it, not one. and my name shows up twice. first with my Bengali last name - Mukhopadhyay and then with the English, Mukherjee. I wonder if that was bad oversight or the editors knew I was a bilingual writer..... has this happened to anyone else ? showing up twice ? aryanil ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:42:17 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Excited for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people can differ greatly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people do not shut themselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reasonable people. My arguments are not anti-democratic, as you imply. Democracy, too, is a spontaneous order -- but of a different kind. Nor are my arguments from the Right. I have as little use for the thoughtless ideology of the Right as I do for that of the Left. I am interested in facts, when it comes to economics. Ideas belong to the realm of politics and philosophy. If you want to discuss ideas, we can move the discussion into those arenas. And why is it that my behavior is "incendiary," but all those on the Left who have been attacking me aren't? It seems to me that the only way you can even begin to think they haven't been incendiary is because you side with them. Please note, though, that up to this point, I haven't yet complained about such irrational tactics. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Jason Quackenbush To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:02:11 PM Subject: Re: Excited for the math attributing the ideas of the opposition soley to the mindless acceptance of dogma (an epistemology that knows no political allegiance) rather than accepting that reasonable people can differ greatly on fundamental principles of politics and economics is the root cause of close-mindedness. without taking opposing viewpoints seriously, which clearly you do not given both your dismissal of the opposition as worthy of the title and your obvious ignorance of the arguments in favor of progressive democratic principles, a claim to open mindedness is absurd. I am pointing this out to you not because I want to insult you, although I grant that saying this about someone is insulting, but because i don't think you realize quite how absurd your claims are and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would like to avoid such errors in the future. I would also like to point out that what you may not also realize is that your incendiary behavior and ocmments may have the opposite effect that you intend. In my own case, i found myself a center left classical liberal driven to the left looking for political allegiance thanks to the ignorance and tactical foulplay that's come from the right over the last ten to fifteen years. In other words, the kind of absurdity on display in your attitudes sir are precisely the sort of thing that radicalized me. it had nothing to do with my college professors. On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Well, let's see, I'm 1) not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so it would be impossible for me to be a fascist. The only inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the Left, whose thoughts have certainly fossilized over the years. Of course, that is because of their strong aversion to poetry, as demonstrated by the "poets" on the postmodern Left (which in fact has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism both). Being flexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in school, nor is it believing just anything any everything. Open-mindedness and being willing to change your mind based on a change in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so open-minded your brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything, no. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Roy Exley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM > Subject: Re: Excited for the math > > Dear Troy Camplin, > > Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place - I sense > there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem to be > attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have demonstrated > more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to > fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not politics, > (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics without poetry > is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: fake anthology :: flawless fakeness ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm in there twice two, once as Hugh Behm-Steinberg and once as just Behm-Steinberg. I suspect the second one was drawn from Dusie, where my wife and I collaborated on a chapbook. Hugh ----- Original Message ---- From: Aryanil Mukherjee To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 6:11:59 PM Subject: fake anthology :: flawless fakeness ? I haven't been following the fake anthology thread. missed the first dozen emails, picking up the thread thereafter didn't make much sense. a poet friend (not fake) from outside the listserv called today to talk about this unique project. he said - you are there. curiously amused I took my first peek at it. well.....funny. the fakeness seems to have logical cracks in it, at least one. I have two poems in it, not one. and my name shows up twice. first with my Bengali last name - Mukhopadhyay and then with the English, Mukherjee. I wonder if that was bad oversight or the editors knew I was a bilingual writer..... has this happened to anyone else ? showing up twice ? aryanil ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:02:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry In-Reply-To: <20081010115052.BLZ43454@m4500-00.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic > statement > against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a > machine can do it, > then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is > the primary > intent of the project) wow. anyone who does the sort of work jim carpenter does will have more or less constant occassion to realize how much fear there is of his sort of work. fear from artists. but also a more widespread contemporary fear of machines being made to do human things. fear of being replaced. fear of our humanity being diminished; fear of humanity being diminished. fear of poetry being diminished; fear of poets being diminished. fear of the life being squeezed out of things into mediocre mechanized processes accepted as replacements for what is beautiful and lively. one cannot scoff at these fears. there is a long way to go concerning the dissemination of a more capacious vision of the possible roles of computers and software in society and art. and that is precisely one of the things work such as jim's is concerned with. it raises these questions even when the poems themselves may not address this sort of issue. which is one of the reasons it also needs steve's sort of work of considering a frame and a concept for jim's work. anyone who spends the sort of time jim has to program his software--count upon it--is seriously interested in poetry both as a fully human undertaking and also, of course, interested in the degree to which poetry is mechanical. when we really understand that, that's when we'll know what is essentially human about it. it isn't about trying to fool people into believing what was written by a computer was written by a person. it's about trying to explore the difference as poetically, dramatically, and thoughtfully as possible. one emotion, though, that i imagine would be relatively easy to program into software: fear and its predictable responses. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Audrey Friedman Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's In-Reply-To: <73EBD50839A5B346B8DBC599774EB43F99128760D7@W-DRSHEPHERD.wcsu.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda Pastan seems to belong on this list. Audrey ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:38:55 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Excited for the math In-Reply-To: <252997.72122.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your behavior is incendiary because you make statements like: "Being flexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in school" and "The only inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the Left" those are very broad, very unqualified statements which attack large swaths of the subscribers to this mailing list which i think most anyone would acknowledge has a primarily left leaning demographic. i would quibble that your support of open markets and what appear to me to be largely libertarian sympathies are in fact right wing positions. but i'm not particularly interested in those sorts of conversations. what i would say is that the economic and political view that you appear to support is one that to me appears to be every bit as sectarian as the brands of marxism you appear to be talking about, which, and please correct me if i'm wrong, seem to be limited to only extremist views like marxist/leninism and maoism. there are interesting ideas to be found in marxism, and while i don't consider myself a marxist I do think that you're doing the same thing you accuse leftists of by painting marxism with so broad a brush. of course, this whole conversation ignores the real differences between the political economic philosophies of social democracy, socialism, communism, and marxism. and of course, one does not need to be any of those things to make an intelligent critique of monetarist/milton friedman style laissez faire capitalism. The term "free market fundamentalist" was coined by Joseph Stiglitz, who is a neo-Keynesian, and like it are not Keynes and his descendents are also capitalists. George Soros additionally makes a strong critique of the laissez faire in favor of strong mixed economies, and my guess is that you and he probably agree on an awful lot. if i've misunderstood or misconstrued your positions at all, i apologize for that. i simply wanted to point out that there appeared to be a disconnect between the style of your rhetoric and its content, as there was what appeared to me to be a contradiction between your criticism of your opposition and the manner in which that criticism was offered. a certain kind of postmodern read could be taken of your statements that implied that everything you've written is in fact ironic. there are elements of that in Plato's republic as well, though, so even if i'm right you're in pretty good company. On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of > mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and > hermeneutic circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that > reasonable people can differ greatly on how they interpret the > facts -- but reasonable people do not shut themselves off from the > facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reasonable people. > > My arguments are not anti-democratic, as you imply. Democracy, too, > is a spontaneous order -- but of a different kind. Nor are my > arguments from the Right. I have as little use for the thoughtless > ideology of the Right as I do for that of the Left. I am interested > in facts, when it comes to economics. Ideas belong to the realm of > politics and philosophy. If you want to discuss ideas, we can move > the discussion into those arenas. > > And why is it that my behavior is "incendiary," but all those on > the Left who have been attacking me aren't? It seems to me that the > only way you can even begin to think they haven't been incendiary > is because you side with them. Please note, though, that up to this > point, I haven't yet complained about such irrational tactics. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jason Quackenbush > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:02:11 PM > Subject: Re: Excited for the math > > attributing the ideas of the opposition soley to the mindless > acceptance of dogma (an epistemology that knows no political > allegiance) rather than accepting that reasonable people can differ > greatly on fundamental principles of politics and economics is the > root cause of close-mindedness. without taking opposing viewpoints > seriously, which clearly you do not given both your dismissal of > the opposition as worthy of the title and your obvious ignorance of > the arguments in favor of progressive democratic principles, a > claim to open mindedness is absurd. > > I am pointing this out to you not because I want to insult you, > although I grant that saying this about someone is insulting, but > because i don't think you realize quite how absurd your claims are > and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would > like to avoid such errors in the future. > > I would also like to point out that what you may not also realize > is that your incendiary behavior and ocmments may have the opposite > effect that you intend. In my own case, i found myself a center > left classical liberal driven to the left looking for political > allegiance thanks to the ignorance and tactical foulplay that's > come from the right over the last ten to fifteen years. In other > words, the kind of absurdity on display in your attitudes sir are > precisely the sort of thing that radicalized me. it had nothing to > do with my college professors. > > > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> Well, let's see, I'm 1) not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so >> it would be impossible for me to be a fascist. The only >> inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the >> Left, whose thoughts have certainly fossilized over the years. Of >> course, that is because of their strong aversion to poetry, as >> demonstrated by the "poets" on the postmodern Left (which in fact >> has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism both). Being flexible doesn't >> mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in >> school, nor is it believing just anything any everything. Open- >> mindedness and being willing to change your mind based on a change >> in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so open-minded your >> brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything, no. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Roy Exley >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM >> Subject: Re: Excited for the math >> >> Dear Troy Camplin, >> >> Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place >> - I sense >> there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem >> to be >> attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have >> demonstrated >> more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to >> fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not >> politics, >> (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics >> without poetry >> is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:08:02 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: fake anthology :: flawless fakeness ? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The flaws, in my flawed opinion, bring Issue 1 closer to the realm of human work. What I mean is that computers can't make mistakes: they can break down and have errors, but the software does only what it is told to do. With perfection's even surface, it would be more identifiably the work of a computer. Its computerized approaches to perfection accounts for the blandness I have found to be characteristic of the work as a whole. (Where are the exceptions?) The growth of computer poetry should lead to a greater celebration of mistakes if we wish to banish fears of replacement, though we must always strive to err in greater less predictable ways if we wish to stay ahead of algorithms. But then, I have long held to the belief that it is the intriguing flaw--the departure from one's stated poetics, the line the poet can't quite explain, the divergence from grammar or syntax with powerful effect--that gives a poem its greatness for however long that subjective stature can last. This connects, of course, to aspects of wabi-sabi, though outright simplicity is more of something to be striven for than something to achieve in my ideal (subjective) poetics. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:49:07 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Erica T. Carter's source code is here: http://etc.wharton.upenn.edu:8080/Etc3beta/Source.jsp -steve On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 4:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote: >> the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic >> statement >> against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a >> machine can do it, >> then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is >> the primary >> intent of the project) > > wow. > > anyone who does the sort of work jim carpenter does will have more or less > constant occassion to realize how much fear there is of his sort of work. > fear from artists. but also a more widespread contemporary fear of machines > being made to do human things. > > fear of being replaced. fear of our humanity being diminished; fear of > humanity being diminished. fear of poetry being diminished; fear of poets > being diminished. fear of the life being squeezed out of things into > mediocre mechanized processes accepted as replacements for what is beautiful > and lively. > > one cannot scoff at these fears. > > there is a long way to go concerning the dissemination of a more capacious > vision of the possible roles of computers and software in society and art. > > and that is precisely one of the things work such as jim's is concerned > with. it raises these questions even when the poems themselves may not > address this sort of issue. which is one of the reasons it also needs > steve's sort of work of considering a frame and a concept for jim's work. > > anyone who spends the sort of time jim has to program his software--count > upon it--is seriously interested in poetry both as a fully human undertaking > and also, of course, interested in the degree to which poetry is mechanical. > when we really understand that, that's when we'll know what is essentially > human about it. > > it isn't about trying to fool people into believing what was written by a > computer was written by a person. it's about trying to explore the > difference as poetically, dramatically, and thoughtfully as possible. > > one emotion, though, that i imagine would be relatively easy to program into > software: fear and its predictable responses. > > ja > http://vispo.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:04:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable you know, the ageless free will/determinism issue hasn't been resolved, whi= ch is why it's ageless. =A0Human or not, we may be mostly, maybe completely= determined creatures. I say, give the machine a break. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- O= riginal Message ----=0AFrom: Jim Andrews =0ATo: POETICS@LIST= SERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:02:09 PM=0ASubject: Re= : Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry=0A=0A> the project wants to make a c= ynical and, yes, misanthropic=0A> statement=0A> against human-only poetry i= n order, it seems, to say "if a=0A> machine can do it,=0A> then poetry is d= ismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is=0A> the primary=0A> inten= t of the project)=0A=0Awow.=0A=0Aanyone who does the sort of work jim carpe= nter does will have more or less=0Aconstant occassion to realize how much f= ear there is of his sort of work.=0Afear from artists. but also a more wide= spread contemporary fear of machines=0Abeing made to do human things.=0A=0A= fear of being replaced. fear of our humanity being diminished; fear of=0Ahu= manity being diminished. fear of poetry being diminished; fear of poets=0Ab= eing diminished. fear of the life being squeezed out of things into=0Amedio= cre mechanized processes accepted as replacements for what is beautiful=0Aa= nd lively.=0A=0Aone cannot scoff at these fears.=0A=0Athere is a long way t= o go concerning the dissemination of a more capacious=0Avision of the possi= ble roles of computers and software in society and art.=0A=0Aand that is pr= ecisely one of the things work such as jim's is concerned=0Awith. it raises= these questions even when the poems themselves may not=0Aaddress this sort= of issue. which is one of the reasons it also needs=0Asteve's sort of work= of considering a frame and a concept for jim's work.=0A=0Aanyone who spend= s the sort of time jim has to program his software--count=0Aupon it--is ser= iously interested in poetry both as a fully human undertaking=0Aand also, o= f course, interested in the degree to which poetry is mechanical.=0Awhen we= really understand that, that's when we'll know what is essentially=0Ahuman= about it.=0A=0Ait isn't about trying to fool people into believing what wa= s written by a=0Acomputer was written by a person. it's about trying to exp= lore the=0Adifference as poetically, dramatically, and thoughtfully as poss= ible.=0A=0Aone emotion, though, that i imagine would be relatively easy to = program into=0Asoftware: fear and its predictable responses.=0A=0Aja=0Ahttp= ://vispo.com=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderat= ed & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:29:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tom Orange Subject: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline eric and others, jim carpenter, who authored the software that created the poems used in the issue 1 anthology, is very clear about his intentions, the availability of the code, demonstrations of the parameters under which it can be run, etc. here: http://etc.wharton.upenn.edu:8080/Etc3beta/Erika.jsp note also that stephen mclaughlin, who compiled the list of names and added them to the poems compiled by carpenter's software, like had intentions other than (or at least not 100% consistent with) those of carpenter. allbests, tom orange > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:50:52 -0500 > From: Eric Elshtain > Subject: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry > > The great and tawdry paradox of the pseudo-hoaxy "fake anthology" is that > while the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic statement > against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a machine can do > it, > then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is the > primary > intent of the project) it, the project, must LEGITIMiZE ITSELF by > pretending to be > human!? > > In that, the whole project feels like a sham on the face of it. Let alone > that fact > that the "sophisticated algorithm" does nothing that hasn't been done > already > by poetry-generating programs dating from the 1970s (Racter, for one) and > even earlier. It's not at all that difficult to get a computer to spew out > free verse > using source texts based on some form of Markov Chain or other stochastic > logic, nor is it that difficult, in the open field that is poetry, to hit > upon a few > machine-assisted poems that read, in style, like poetry written by mere > humans. Joshua Kotin wrote a trim essay a few years back on this very > subject: > what are the implications of a poetic "style" if a computer can > successfully > mimic that style? > > So, yes, machine assisted poetry raises very interesting questions about > poetic > origin, readership, authorship, &c but without the need for clap-trap one- > upmanship (one-upmachineship??) and thumbing one's nose at human-only > poetries. > > Let machine poetry be machine poetry! Let computer-assisted poetry be just > that--another tool in the procedural verse tool box. It's a shame to > reduce > machine-assisted poetry to the level of a bad joke. > > Also--can anyone else use this software? Can we see the code? > > > > > > Eric Elshtain > Editor > Beard of Bees Press > http://www.beardofbees.com > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:59:17 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Elshtain Subject: Machine poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim Andrews wrote: >>it isn't about trying to fool people into believing what was written by a computer was written by a person. it's about trying to explore the difference as poetically, dramatically, and thoughtfully as possible.<< Then why submit poems composed by his software, like Carpenter has done, to journals without mentioning the fact that a computer assisted in the poem's composition if not to try and perpetrate, at least in part, a sort of hoax hinging on the fact that people (editors in particular) were "fooled"? This action also seems to fly in the face of exploring "difference," no? All I was saying is that computer poetry can raise all the kinds of questions and make the kind of explorations you mention without all the folderol. I think you also mistook annoyance for fear--yes, many people do not like the idea of machines "encroaching" into what they consider a purely human endeavor, but I have no such fear. Machines can do things in poetry humans can not or dare not, but humans can also do things a machine can not be programmed (as yet) to do. From the outside, looking through the lens of the actions Carpenter has taken with his software, I think it's fair to think that there's something snarky lurking within... Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:04:56 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <744518.30389.qm@web65101.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Alan: I don't think that the discussion means that "the right has won," at all. Perhpas some might see the creators of the programme producing the Anthology as "the Right" as it is intended as an anti-experimental example; that is, that a computer program can produce peoms just as intersting as any given set of "experimental" as well as dead poets. The anaology with terorism is not to say at all that the anhtology is terrorist, or even terrifying. For you it brought a sense of wonder, and wonder is something the world is ever in good need of. I think that --well, I know in my case, what intersts me and brings a sense of wonder is how many things have a doubled, punning nature, are two edged swords. On the one hand a method may produce an anthology of poems; on the other hand the same method may be used to fill a prison with "suspects" complete with the "evidence" from an "unidentified source." Personally, I don't think there is a "terrorist" aspect to the project in itself,; rather, like many hoaxes, it is intended to expose an aspect of something whith which the authors are in disagreement, or are crritical of, or simply laughing at. The real Terror is when the State uses forged documents and faked evidence to begin genocidal Wars as the US State has in Iraq. The use of lies to mureder milions and destroy an entire society and culture--well, the US has done this before, right "at home," it is only that the technology used has changed. Barry has a very good point. I don't know if anyone here--I am sure many probably have!--has run into someone they know who is a hard core Dead Head, and has just acquired about a hundred new bootleg tapes and CDs of Dead shows from various tours that they immmediately kindap you and hold you hostage until you have gone with "on the journey" for many long long long hours, far longer than one can bear, if one were not a captive audeince so to speak. When you have heard about fifty different versions of the same song which are being played amazingly almost exactly the same--even the "jams" after awhile are incredibly similar--the non Dead Head is bewildered by the endurance for montony and self-consistence which one's Dead Head friend has. yet al the while, the Dead head will point out some very tiny difference, some slightly different vibration in the Cosmic groove--as though this is a Revelation from the Mighty Source itself. I've been passionate about some artists in the same manner, and listened to every single creaky old vinyl, every bootleg, every cassette recorded radio show, of some one whose music I was manic about--and within the same song performed a different time heard entire symphonies of difference, where others might not distinguish anything much other than a variation in the degree of the quality of the recording from good to barely non-noise sounds. I also used to collect versions of the smae song done by as many artists as I could find, especially obscure Punk gargae band versions of massively covered songs. One might hear five or six bands in a row that sounded almost identical, trying their hardest to sound note for note like the Yardbirds, say. Then would come some explosion and a suddenly completely different version, so different that in effect it was a completely new song. (In Jamaica, when an artist cut a cover, they called it simply "Version.") As an auctioneer in Vermont my brother and I were fans of said once, when selling "a real special pair of tires,"--"what makes these tires so special, you see, is that one's the same and the other's different." And they sold at quite a good price! Lists of names with affixed "crimes" have been produced throughout history to send persons to prison or beheadings, the gallows or simply to vanish into the Blacklist oblivions. It is simply that now with computers having at their disposal such massive lists of names and amounts of information--as well as disinformation--one could indeed compile both an Anthology of poetry as well as a list of suspects to be "detaineed indefinietly." The wonder to me is how different--or even the same-- persons, taking the same method, may see quite different methods of employing it. After all, not that long after the invention of writing in ancient Iraq--the first forgeries also began to appear. Considering what has happened to Iraq based on forgeries-- one may ask, is that thanks there is for the invention of writing?-- As though writing itself is to pen a Pandora's Box!-- On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > given that a certain number of "cursory read > Catherine Dalt writes: > > > given that a certain number of "cursory readers" and > one "writer" see a homogenity, and a certain number of readers -- and an > editor -- see a divergence: are the recombinant poems actually separable, > or > individual poems? > > > ---An interesting question, but one that arises any time a body of work > seems self-consistent. Maurice Sceve's Delie, anyone? > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:51:45 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "Â ". Rest of header flushed. From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was interested to find on that page the following statement:=0A=C2=A0=0A"= I am releasing all of this source as public-domain work. The onnly restrict= ion is that you may not copyright it. You may modify it, distribute it in a= ny fashion, use it for commercial purposes, sell it, rent it. Whatever you = want. You can claim authorship. You don't even have to mention me. Just don= 't copyright it." =0A=C2=A0=0ALet me repeat that: "You can claim authorship= ." So just to say, Carpenter is not claiming anything any exclusivity for h= imself that he is denying anyone else.=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message --= --=0AFrom: Steve McLaughlin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSER= V.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, 11 October, 2008 1:49:07 PM=0ASubject: Re: = Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry=0A=0AErica T. Carter's source code is = here:=0Ahttp://etc.wharton.upenn.edu:8080/Etc3beta/Source.jsp=0A=0A-steve= =0A=0AOn Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 4:02 AM, Jim Andrews wrote:= =0A>> the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic=0A>> state= ment=0A>> against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a=0A>> m= achine can do it,=0A>> then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% ce= rtain this is=0A>> the primary=0A>> intent of the project)=0A>=0A> wow.=0A>= =0A> anyone who does the sort of work jim carpenter does will have more or = less=0A> constant occassion to realize how much fear there is of his sort o= f work.=0A> fear from artists. but also a more widespread contemporary fear= of machines=0A> being made to do human things.=0A>=0A> fear of being repla= ced. fear of our humanity being diminished; fear of=0A> humanity being dimi= nished. fear of poetry being diminished; fear of poets=0A> being diminished= . fear of the life being squeezed out of things into=0A> mediocre mechanize= d processes accepted as replacements for what is beautiful=0A> and lively.= =0A>=0A> one cannot scoff at these fears.=0A>=0A> there is a long way to go= concerning the dissemination of a more capacious=0A> vision of the possibl= e roles of computers and software in society and art.=0A>=0A> and that is p= recisely one of the things work such as jim's is concerned=0A> with. it rai= ses these questions even when the poems themselves may not=0A> address this= sort of issue. which is one of the reasons it also needs=0A> steve's sort = of work of considering a frame and a concept for jim's work.=0A>=0A> anyone= who spends the sort of time jim has to program his software--count=0A> upo= n it--is seriously interested in poetry both as a fully human undertaking= =0A> and also, of course, interested in the degree to which poetry is mecha= nical.=0A> when we really understand that, that's when we'll know what is e= ssentially=0A> human about it.=0A>=0A> it isn't about trying to fool people= into believing what was written by a=0A> computer was written by a person.= it's about trying to explore the=0A> difference as poetically, dramaticall= y, and thoughtfully as possible.=0A>=0A> one emotion, though, that i imagin= e would be relatively easy to program into=0A> software: fear and its predi= ctable responses.=0A>=0A> ja=0A> http://vispo.com=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.= Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.= html=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0AStephen McLaughlin=0ASchilperoortstraat 84 A2=0A3= 082SX Rotterdam, NL=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List i= s moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Looking for accessible poetry rec's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit steve dalachinsky's final nite over 200 pages that deal with music racial issues religion politics abortion etc really accesible stuff to a bit out there (shameless plug) tom savage's work On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:58:04 -0700 steve russell writes: > among the recently departed, Cid Corman is excellent. Not well known > > > > among the recently departed, Cid Corman is excellent. Not well known > beyond D.C., but a very prolific, living poet, Dean Blehert. Though > I warn you, he's a, ugh, committed Scientologist. Also accessible > and extemely prolific, Lyn Lifshin. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Luke Schlueter > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, October 9, 2008 12:48:06 PM > Subject: Looking for accessible poetry rec's > > Hi all, > > I'm creating a contemporary poetry list that will consist of works > that have significant literary merit and yet are accessible to a > non-specialist audience (think Collins, Dunn, Oliver, Hass, Kooser, > Olds etc.). I would be very pleased if you might recommend some > authors/works that would fall into this category. > > Much appreciated, > Luke > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:23:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: IN YOUR DREAMS by Ted Greenwald Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Ted Greenwald's 30th book, In Your Dreams, new from BlazeVox. Ted Greenwald=B9s 30th book consists of 79 72-line poems, each with his trademark recombinatory drop-stitch weave. As a basic pattern, which is varied, each poem=B9s 26 demotic lines is repeated in 9 interlinked free triolets (ABCACDABDEFDFGDE). In Your Dreams is almost, then is, hard to say= , In Your Dreams is almost, hard to say, autopoiesis, In Your Dreams is almost, then is, autopoiesis, flickering fugal strobe of the everyday, or sublime sonic moir=E9, autopoiesis, or sublime sonic moir=E9, spoken and shimmering, autopoiesis, flickering fugal strobe of the everyday. =8BCharles Bernstein=20 In your dreams, text messages are cinematic connectives; in the rushes of Ted Greenwald=B9s talking pictures, a spoken grammar steps out of the voice and into language proper, only to find that the comma is an extra (Natalie Wood plays the waitress=B9s pad; Laurence Harvey, the double helix). Shots an= d cuts are balanced for maximum clarity and accommodation. What happens next is in the present tense. =8BMiles Champion=20 As the centered layout replicates a spinal column or double helix of symmetrical verticality that allows the eye to scan rapidly down through each stack of lines, the use of interwoven repetition creates an echoic choral effect that builds-in rhythmic intensity: In Your Dreams. Two steps forward, one step back, these improvised speeches for an in-town head reverberate with second, third and fourth takes that take out loans on short-term memory only to break the bank of thought-heard voices and walk right through the door in a hum. =8BKit Robinson=20 The poems to be found in this extraordinary book exert obsessive fascination, and they do so on numerous fronts. The title, In Your Dreams, suggests that this is a dream book; it is important to note, however, that the dreams are not materials of Ted Greenwald=B9s inward musings. They are propelled outward, rather, to =B3your dreams,=B2 which is to say ours=8Bwe of the shared, not-so-nice realities of the contemporary world. It is also important to note the affective import of the title: it is witty and slightly melancholy and caustic and confrontational. The poems reflect not some dreamy inner consciousness but on-going social processes with their intricate (and some might say relentless) patterns. Patterning is perceptible in the structure of the poems, and that is a manifest source of the technical fascination they yield. Indeed, Greenwald has produced a masterpiece of the American variable foot. But the emotional power of this utterly compelling book emerges from the inter-personal conditions that giv= e the poems their thrust. The poems speak in and out of love, irritation, tension, wry amiability, nervous and unnerving intimacy; they represent daily interplay, quotidian perseverations; they resonate with comic intensity and the blues. That=B9s it: they are beautiful and very bluesy. =8BLyn Hejinian=20 Editors: Miles Champion and Kyle Schlesinger Design: Cuneiform Publisher: BlazeVox Paperback: 256 pages ISBN-10: 193428954X ISBN-13: 978-1934289549 Product Dimensions: 8 x 5.2 x 0.6 inches Available from Amazon.com and BlazeVox Books Read an excerpt of In Your Dreams at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/greenwald/index.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:29:12 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barrett Watten Subject: Announcing Grand Piano 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Featuring essays on poetry and music & a chronology of book publications, 1965=9685 THE GRAND PIANO, PART 7 An Experiment in Collective Autobiography, San Francisco, 1975-1980. Part=20 7, by Kit Robinson, Carla Harryman, Lyn Hejinian, Ron Silliman, Bob=20 Perelman, Barrett Watten, Ted Pearson, Tom Mandel, Steve Benson, and Rae=20 Armantrout. 208 pp. The seventh installment contains new essays on poetry and music by=20 Hejinian, Silliman, Watten, Pearson, and Mandel; an essay on poetry,=20 performance, and conceptual art by Harryman; and writings on poetics and=20 culture by Robinson, Perelman, Benson, and Armantrout. It also contains a=20 collectively edited "Chronology: Timeline of Book Publications Significant= =20 for The Grand Piano, 1965=9685," a representative list of predecessors,=20 contemporaries, and contexts. http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/images/homepage/gp7front.jpg NEW! MP3 files of Grand Piano readings at the Poetry of the 70s conference= =20 (with Benson, Robinson, and Watten), June 2008, and the October 2008 Grand= =20 Piano reading in Detroit (with Benson, Robinson, Watten, Hejinian,=20 Harryman, Mandel, and Pearson) can be accessed at: http://www.thegrandpiano.org Copies of single volumes may be ordered from Small Press Distribution, Inc. http://www.spdbooks.org/SearchResults.asp?Title=3DThe+Grand+Piano&Author=3D&= Subtitle=3D&submit=3DSearch Subscription to The Grand Piano (ten volumes, at quarterly intervals,=20 beginning with parts 1=967), is available for $95; multiple volumes can be= =20 purchased for $10/volume. See the ordering page at the Grand Piano website: http://www.thegrandpiano.org/order.html Designed and published by Barrett Watten, Mode A/This Press (Detroit), 6885= =20 Cathedral Drive, Bloomfield Twp., MI 48301. Distributed (individual orders and trade) by Small Press Distribution,=20 Inc., 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710-1408 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:35:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: jared schickling Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dear Troy=2C =20 "Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of mindlessl= y accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic circle and= =2C thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people can differ g= reatly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people do not shut= themselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reas= onable people." =20 I've heard you say "facts" over and over. But I actually haven't seen any.= Could you please list some in support of your claims? For example=2C say= ing the US isn't the biggest polluter on this planet=2C the one called Eart= h=2C is a claim. Saying a free market is our salvation is a claim. =20 =20 The problem with freeing up the market is when you add advanced technologie= s to such human inevitabilities as lust and greed=2C the result is precisel= y the opposite of a free market. A free market works for the Maasai or the= Tanala because possessing a rudimentary technology means the earth acts as= a check on how much power=2C in the form of capital=2C one can acquire. B= ut here that ain't the case. If you provide folks with the means to acquir= e and consolidate in the hands of a few ever greater amounts of wealth and = power=2C you can be damn sure it will happen. Thus in part the necessity o= f "governance." =20 Now=2C I can anticipate your objection=2C as it's already appeared in the d= iscussion=2C that all the rich folks let that wealth trickle down to all th= e poor and middling folks. But cultivating a situation where MOST folks sp= end 50=2C 60=2C 70 hours a week at the factory or bakery or hospital or piz= za shop or walmart without receiving adequate healthcare or retirement insu= rance or vacation time and all the while struggling just to keep the house = or pay the rent or pay for the kids while the income gap between them and y= r average CEO is at historic highs=2C and keeps widening=2C and where their= companies keep posting record profits=2C don't sound like a fair or respon= sible distribution of wealth. It certainly don't sound like yr trickle-dow= n-doohickey is worth the paper it's written on. See if yr theories don't m= eet with some suspicion on the streets of Michigan. =20 =20 But most importantly=2C one must recognize that affluence don't equate with= health. Fact: according to clinical definitions: Psychologically we're th= e sickest population on the planet. Fact: according to stats: Physically w= e're the most violent. Hence my problem with fetishizing the marketplace. = Fact: according to annual figures: We're the biggest polluter on the plane= t. (yes=2C I've been to your so-called "third world=2C" more than once--yes= =2C the streets are dirtier--yes=2C looking out my window--ah the spectacle= !)(i also noted along those dirtier streets friendlier and livelier faces a= nd demeanors=2C if the preponderance of smiles and willingness to talk and = laugh are any kind of index=2C compared to any Amerikan city or town I've b= een to) =20 And if I may=2C you might avoid being labeled "incendiary" if you erase suc= h blanket condemnations as "green" and "left" from your mind. Unless of co= urse you can define your terms a little more precisely. Remember your own = claim to logic and rationale. =20 Jared Schickling =20 p.s. i hope this conversation ends soon. it grows boring. =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie= . http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:45:04 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Excited for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Let me clarify, then. I oppose the following economic systems: marxism, socialism, fascism, Keyneseanism, capitalism (as defined by Marx, who coined the term), and interventionism by any name. All of these are man-designed systems or man-interventionary systems. I support naturally-occurring spontaneous order economies. That's not a right-wing position, as the political Right is not pro-market (Pat Buchanan once said "I oppose the free market."). If you consider Bush to be a member of the Right, then the recent activities of him in regards to the economy should belie any support of the free market, as he has done nothing but undermine it. The most recent evidence: the suggestion that the federal government partially nationalize the banks. That's not pro free markets by any stretch of the imagination. That's the kind of things you would expect from Hugo Chavez. I'm not saying there aren't good ideas in Marx. I take good ideas wherever they come from. But if one is to take the overall political ideology of Marxism, I do oppose it. The contemporary Left is primarily Marxist, though of course the Left historically had its origins in the French Revolution. Still, the secular egalitarianist ideals are still to be found there. The Right also had its origins in the French Revolution -- they were the religious royalists. Neither side were friends of the free market. At the time "liberals" were those who, like me, supported the free market, supported representational democracy, supported science, and supported free expression in the arts and in life. Over time, the Left began to take on support of democracy, seeing it as a way of achieving their goals through the manipulation of the populace. Science was making such progress that some began to argue that we could create a "scientific society," which is where socialism had its foundation. The technocrats believed that we could learn all there is to know about the physical world, therefore we could learn everything about how an economy runs, and we could therefore learn how to design an economy so that it was perfectly efficient and everyone was treated equally. The science of the time showed them that, though what we have since learned from systems science is that such a dream is impossible. Still, you hear it in political rhetoric all the time with promises to "make things more efficient." Science has left the Left far behind. The response? To adopt an anti-science postmodernist world view. Which is where we are now at politically in the U.S. In Europe, they are still trying to fit systems science into Marxism, which requires them ignoring what systems science says about systems, particularly self-organization. Other problems occur when they don't differentiate between entities and environments. Other things that don't place me anywhere near the Right: my strong support for gay rights, including state recognition of gay marriage, my support for equal rights and protections under the law, my opposition to the government being involved in private life, my support for drug legalization and for legalizing prostitution and gambling, and my support for transparency in government and economy. My cosmology is big bang cosmology and emergent complexity, and I take an evolutionary perspective on most things. Of course, much of this puts me in direct opposition to many on the Left in the U.S. as well. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Jason Quackenbush To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:38:55 PM Subject: Re: Excited for the math Your behavior is incendiary because you make statements like: "Being flexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in school" and "The only inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the Left" those are very broad, very unqualified statements which attack large swaths of the subscribers to this mailing list which i think most anyone would acknowledge has a primarily left leaning demographic. i would quibble that your support of open markets and what appear to me to be largely libertarian sympathies are in fact right wing positions. but i'm not particularly interested in those sorts of conversations. what i would say is that the economic and political view that you appear to support is one that to me appears to be every bit as sectarian as the brands of marxism you appear to be talking about, which, and please correct me if i'm wrong, seem to be limited to only extremist views like marxist/leninism and maoism. there are interesting ideas to be found in marxism, and while i don't consider myself a marxist I do think that you're doing the same thing you accuse leftists of by painting marxism with so broad a brush. of course, this whole conversation ignores the real differences between the political economic philosophies of social democracy, socialism, communism, and marxism. and of course, one does not need to be any of those things to make an intelligent critique of monetarist/milton friedman style laissez faire capitalism. The term "free market fundamentalist" was coined by Joseph Stiglitz, who is a neo-Keynesian, and like it are not Keynes and his descendents are also capitalists. George Soros additionally makes a strong critique of the laissez faire in favor of strong mixed economies, and my guess is that you and he probably agree on an awful lot. if i've misunderstood or misconstrued your positions at all, i apologize for that. i simply wanted to point out that there appeared to be a disconnect between the style of your rhetoric and its content, as there was what appeared to me to be a contradiction between your criticism of your opposition and the manner in which that criticism was offered. a certain kind of postmodern read could be taken of your statements that implied that everything you've written is in fact ironic. there are elements of that in Plato's republic as well, though, so even if i'm right you're in pretty good company. On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of > mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and > hermeneutic circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that > reasonable people can differ greatly on how they interpret the > facts -- but reasonable people do not shut themselves off from the > facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reasonable people. > > My arguments are not anti-democratic, as you imply. Democracy, too, > is a spontaneous order -- but of a different kind. Nor are my > arguments from the Right. I have as little use for the thoughtless > ideology of the Right as I do for that of the Left. I am interested > in facts, when it comes to economics. Ideas belong to the realm of > politics and philosophy. If you want to discuss ideas, we can move > the discussion into those arenas. > > And why is it that my behavior is "incendiary," but all those on > the Left who have been attacking me aren't? It seems to me that the > only way you can even begin to think they haven't been incendiary > is because you side with them. Please note, though, that up to this > point, I haven't yet complained about such irrational tactics. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jason Quackenbush > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:02:11 PM > Subject: Re: Excited for the math > > attributing the ideas of the opposition soley to the mindless > acceptance of dogma (an epistemology that knows no political > allegiance) rather than accepting that reasonable people can differ > greatly on fundamental principles of politics and economics is the > root cause of close-mindedness. without taking opposing viewpoints > seriously, which clearly you do not given both your dismissal of > the opposition as worthy of the title and your obvious ignorance of > the arguments in favor of progressive democratic principles, a > claim to open mindedness is absurd. > > I am pointing this out to you not because I want to insult you, > although I grant that saying this about someone is insulting, but > because i don't think you realize quite how absurd your claims are > and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would > like to avoid such errors in the future. > > I would also like to point out that what you may not also realize > is that your incendiary behavior and ocmments may have the opposite > effect that you intend. In my own case, i found myself a center > left classical liberal driven to the left looking for political > allegiance thanks to the ignorance and tactical foulplay that's > come from the right over the last ten to fifteen years. In other > words, the kind of absurdity on display in your attitudes sir are > precisely the sort of thing that radicalized me. it had nothing to > do with my college professors. > > > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> Well, let's see, I'm 1) not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so >> it would be impossible for me to be a fascist. The only >> inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the >> Left, whose thoughts have certainly fossilized over the years. Of >> course, that is because of their strong aversion to poetry, as >> demonstrated by the "poets" on the postmodern Left (which in fact >> has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism both). Being flexible doesn't >> mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in >> school, nor is it believing just anything any everything. Open- >> mindedness and being willing to change your mind based on a change >> in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so open-minded your >> brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything, no. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Roy Exley >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM >> Subject: Re: Excited for the math >> >> Dear Troy Camplin, >> >> Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place >> - I sense >> there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem >> to be >> attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have >> demonstrated >> more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to >> fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not >> politics, >> (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics >> without poetry >> is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:49:20 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: David Chirot To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:04:56 AM Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) Dear Alan: I don't think that the discussion means that "the right has won," at all. Perhpas some might see the creators of the programme producing the Anthology as "the Right" as it is intended as an anti-experimental example; that is, that a computer program can produce peoms just as intersting as any given set of "experimental" as well as dead poets. The anaology with terorism is not to say at all that the anhtology is terrorist, or even terrifying. For you it brought a sense of wonder, and wonder is something the world is ever in good need of. I think that --well, I know in my case, what intersts me and brings a sense of wonder is how many things have a doubled, punning nature, are two edged swords. On the one hand a method may produce an anthology of poems; on the other hand the same method may be used to fill a prison with "suspects" complete with the "evidence" from an "unidentified source." Personally, I don't think there is a "terrorist" aspect to the project in itself,; rather, like many hoaxes, it is intended to expose an aspect of something whith which the authors are in disagreement, or are crritical of, or simply laughing at. The real Terror is when the State uses forged documents and faked evidence to begin genocidal Wars as the US State has in Iraq. The use of lies to mureder milions and destroy an entire society and culture--well, the US has done this before, right "at home," it is only that the technology used has changed. Barry has a very good point. I don't know if anyone here--I am sure many probably have!--has run into someone they know who is a hard core Dead Head, and has just acquired about a hundred new bootleg tapes and CDs of Dead shows from various tours that they immmediately kindap you and hold you hostage until you have gone with "on the journey" for many long long long hours, far longer than one can bear, if one were not a captive audeince so to speak. When you have heard about fifty different versions of the same song which are being played amazingly almost exactly the same--even the "jams" after awhile are incredibly similar--the non Dead Head is bewildered by the endurance for montony and self-consistence which one's Dead Head friend has. yet al the while, the Dead head will point out some very tiny difference, some slightly different vibration in the Cosmic groove--as though this is a Revelation from the Mighty Source itself. I've been passionate about some artists in the same manner, and listened to every single creaky old vinyl, every bootleg, every cassette recorded radio show, of some one whose music I was manic about--and within the same song performed a different time heard entire symphonies of difference, where others might not distinguish anything much other than a variation in the degree of the quality of the recording from good to barely non-noise sounds. I also used to collect versions of the smae song done by as many artists as I could find, especially obscure Punk gargae band versions of massively covered songs. One might hear five or six bands in a row that sounded almost identical, trying their hardest to sound note for note like the Yardbirds, say. Then would come some explosion and a suddenly completely different version, so different that in effect it was a completely new song. (In Jamaica, when an artist cut a cover, they called it simply "Version.") As an auctioneer in Vermont my brother and I were fans of said once, when selling "a real special pair of tires,"--"what makes these tires so special, you see, is that one's the same and the other's different." And they sold at quite a good price! Lists of names with affixed "crimes" have been produced throughout history to send persons to prison or beheadings, the gallows or simply to vanish into the Blacklist oblivions. It is simply that now with computers having at their disposal such massive lists of names and amounts of information--as well as disinformation--one could indeed compile both an Anthology of poetry as well as a list of suspects to be "detaineed indefinietly." The wonder to me is how different--or even the same-- persons, taking the same method, may see quite different methods of employing it. After all, not that long after the invention of writing in ancient Iraq--the first forgeries also began to appear. Considering what has happened to Iraq based on forgeries-- one may ask, is that thanks there is for the invention of writing?-- As though writing itself is to pen a Pandora's Box!-- On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Barry Schwabsky < b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > given that a certain number of "cursory read > Catherine Dalt writes: > > > given that a certain number of "cursory readers" and > one "writer" see a homogenity, and a certain number of readers -- and an > editor -- see a divergence: are the recombinant poems actually separable, > or > individual poems? > > > ---An interesting question, but one that arises any time a body of work > seems self-consistent. Maurice Sceve's Delie, anyone? > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:52:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tom, Thank you. I was fascinated to read the perimeters within which Jim Carpenter has built his program: a grammatical model interacting with a finite lexical set. I would be curious to know how one can build a grammatical model which, it seems to me, may contain infinite variations. I wonder if by grammatical model he means a set of rhetorical devices, which is more circumscribed. I am particularly fascinated by his idea of an "inhibiting" dimension to contain the "irrational exhuberance" of his software program, its permutative possibilities, to prevent the result fom turning into "gibberish." A few months ago, I was discussing with Chris Funkhauser an idea he posits in the last section of his book, *Pre-Historic Digital Poetry * (a great book, by the way). Chris says that for digital poetry truly to become its own, first, it must develop a sense of the "outside"; second, the digital language must integrate the ability to "learn." I responded that, since in digital work learning consists of positive reinforcements of responses to it, does learning not progressively narrow down the range within which the program moves -which is the very opposite of developing an outside. I told him perhaps what digital work needs is the ability to un-learn, to create resistances to its cumulative knowledge (or, may be put in another way, its permutational impulse). Resonance occurs moving through a resistant space. I wonder if Jim Carpentar's inhibiting dimension is pointing to something similar to "unlearning" or if it has a more limited practical application, basically an attempt to create "balance," a kind of golden rule. Ciao, Murat On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > eric and others, > > jim carpenter, who authored the software that created the poems used in the > issue 1 anthology, is very clear about his intentions, the availability of > the code, demonstrations of the parameters under which it can be run, etc. > here: > > http://etc.wharton.upenn.edu:8080/Etc3beta/Erika.jsp > > note also that stephen mclaughlin, who compiled the list of names and added > them to the poems compiled by carpenter's software, like had intentions > other than (or at least not 100% consistent with) those of carpenter. > > allbests, > tom orange > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:50:52 -0500 > > From: Eric Elshtain > > Subject: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry > > > > The great and tawdry paradox of the pseudo-hoaxy "fake anthology" is that > > while the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic > statement > > against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a machine can do > > it, > > then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is the > > primary > > intent of the project) it, the project, must LEGITIMiZE ITSELF by > > pretending to be > > human!? > > > > In that, the whole project feels like a sham on the face of it. Let > alone > > that fact > > that the "sophisticated algorithm" does nothing that hasn't been done > > already > > by poetry-generating programs dating from the 1970s (Racter, for one) and > > even earlier. It's not at all that difficult to get a computer to spew > out > > free verse > > using source texts based on some form of Markov Chain or other stochastic > > logic, nor is it that difficult, in the open field that is poetry, to hit > > upon a few > > machine-assisted poems that read, in style, like poetry written by mere > > humans. Joshua Kotin wrote a trim essay a few years back on this very > > subject: > > what are the implications of a poetic "style" if a computer can > > successfully > > mimic that style? > > > > So, yes, machine assisted poetry raises very interesting questions about > > poetic > > origin, readership, authorship, &c but without the need for clap-trap > one- > > upmanship (one-upmachineship??) and thumbing one's nose at human-only > > poetries. > > > > Let machine poetry be machine poetry! Let computer-assisted poetry be > just > > that--another tool in the procedural verse tool box. It's a shame to > > reduce > > machine-assisted poetry to the level of a bad joke. > > > > Also--can anyone else use this software? Can we see the code? > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Elshtain > > Editor > > Beard of Bees Press > > http://www.beardofbees.com > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:09:56 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Fri. Oct 24th -- Sat.,Oct. 25th!! Ducks & Carolinians ... Comments: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable STAIN OF POETRY presents Fri., Oct. 24th @ 7 p.m. - Stain Bar - Williamsburg, Brooklyn ** Browning, Cohen, Herron, Howe, Rumble, and Svalina ** & SPECIAL EVENT: UDP Swedish Authors and Translators Sat., Oct. 25th @ 6 p.m. - Stain Bar - Williamsburg, Brooklyn ** Johannes G=F6ransson, Fredrik Nyberg, and Jennifer Hayashida** =A0 stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny 11211 (L train to Grand Street, 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =A0 October 24th @ 7 p.m. Sommer Browning has a chapbook out with horse less press called Vale Tudo and another on the rise with Cue Editions. Forklift, Ohio, New York Quarterly, Open Letters Monthly, Free Verse and other journals have published her poems. She lives and loves in Brooklyn. ~~~ Julia Cohen has three chapbooks available. =93The History of a Lake Never Drowns=94 from Dancing Girl Press= and =93Chugwater=94 (with Mathias Svalina) from Transmission Press are forthcom= ing this year. Her poems have been published in Denver Quarterly, Copper Nickel, Bir= d Dog, Spinning Jenny, RealPoetik, Forklift, Ohio, MiPOesia, and GutCult amon= gst others. Her blog: www.onthemessiersideofneat.blogspot.com. ~~~ Patrick Herron (http://patrickherron.com) is a poet, musician, artist and information scientist living in Chapel Hill. His doll Lester is the author of the book _Be Somebody_ (http://effingpress= .com/lester.htm) published in April 2008 by Effing Press (a 2003 review from Ron Silliman he= re: http://tinyurl.com/3e8es). Patrick is the author of several other books= of poetry including _The American Godwar Complex_ (2004, BlazeVox, download in full f= or free at http://tinyurl.com/22fsn5). ~~~ Brian Howe is a freelance arts journalist and poet living in Durham, NC. His poems and sound art have appeared in Fascicle, Octopus, Apocryphal Text, Listenlight, Effing Magazin= e, Soft Targets, Cannibal, MiPO, Word for/ Word, and elsewhere. Howe is the au= thor of two chapbooks, Guitar Smash (3rdness Press; 2006) and Foreign Letter (Beard of Bees; forthcoming in 2008). He is the creator of the electro-poetic project Glossolalia (http://glossolalia-blacksail.blogspot.c= om/) and a member of the Lucifer Poetics Group. ~~~ Ken Rumble is the author of Key Bridge (Carolina Wren Press, 2007) and President Letters (Scantily Clad Press, forthcoming.) His poems and reviews have appeared in Cutbank, Typo, Coconut= , the tiny, Minor American, Talisman, and others. He lives in Greensboro, Nor= th Carolina. ~~~ Mathias Svalina is the co-editor of Octopus Magazine & Books. He is the author of the chapbooks Why I Am White (Kitchen Press), Creation Myths (New Michigan Press), The Viral Lease (forthcoming from Smal= l Anchor Press) &, written in collaboration with Julia Cohen, When We Broke the Microscope (Small Fires Press). His first book, Destruction Myth, is forthcoming from Cleveland State University Press in 09. ~~~~ Johannes G=F6ransson is the co-editor of the press Action Books and the online journal Action, Yes. He is the translator of Remainland: Selected Poems of = Aase Berg and Ideals Clearance by Henry Parland, as well as the upcoming With De= er by Aase Berg and Collobert Orbital by Johan Jonsson. His own books include:= A New Quarantine Will Take My Place, Pilot and Dear Ra. ~~~~ Fredrik Nyberg is a Swedish poet born in 1968, currently living in G=F6teborg, Sweden. In 2007, Ugly Duckling Presse published a translation of his d=E9but collectio= n, A Different Practice (En annorlunda praktik), originally published by Norstedts F=F6rlag in 1998. Subsequent books include Blomsterur - f=F6rklaringar och dikter (Clockwork of Flowers - Explanations and Poems, 2000), =C5ren (The Years, 2002), and Det blir inte r=E4ttvist bara f=F6r att b=E5da blundar (It won=92t be fair just because both shut their eyes, 2006).=A0 Translations of his poetry have appeared in The Chicago Review, The Literary Review, Calque= , Circumference, and Action, Yes. A new collection - Nio, nine, nein, neuf - is forthcoming from Norstedts in the fall of 2008. ~~~~ Poet and translator Jennifer Hayashida was born in Oakland, CA, and grew up in the suburbs of Stockholm and San Francisco. She is the recipient of a 2008-2009 LMCC Workspace Residency, a 2007 PEN Translation F= und Grant, a Witter Bynner Poetry Translator Residency at the Santa Fe Art Institute, and has been a Fellow at the MacDowell Colony. She is the transl= ator of Fredrik Nyberg=92s A Different Practice (Ugly Duckling Presse, 2007) and Eva Sj=F6din=92s Inner China (Litmus Press, 2005). Her poems and translations have appeared in The Chicago Review, Calque, Circumference, Th= e Literary Review, Insurance, The Asian Pacific American Journal, and Action, Yes; text-based work has been included in group exhibitions at The Vera Lis= t Center for Art and Politics and Artists Space. She received her MFA in writ= ing from Bard College in 2003. She currently lives in Brooklyn, and is Director of the Asian American Studies Program at Hunter C= ollege. ~~~~ stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny 11211 (L train to Grand Street, 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m. ~~~~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bozicevic OCT. 24TH -- http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/friday-october-2= 4-2008-700-pm/ =A0 OCT. 25TH -- http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/ugly-duckling-pr= esses-swedish-authors-translators/ =A0 =A0 _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:09:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: angela vasquez-giroux Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "See if yr theories don't meet with some suspicion on the streets of Michigan." I live in Michigan, in Lansing, to be specific, where the median income is somewhere around poverty level. No one I know has seen any type of trickle-down help, myself included. Freeing up the market won't help until the government stops intervening. If this country is to have a truly free, capitalist market, then no more bailouts, for anything. No government intervention in the market. I give it less than a decade to implode. On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:35 PM, jared schickling wrote: > dear Troy, > > "Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of > mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic > circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people can > differ greatly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people do > not shut themselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions > with reasonable people." > > I've heard you say "facts" over and over. But I actually haven't seen any. > Could you please list some in support of your claims? For example, saying > the US isn't the biggest polluter on this planet, the one called Earth, is a > claim. Saying a free market is our salvation is a claim. > > The problem with freeing up the market is when you add advanced > technologies to such human inevitabilities as lust and greed, the result is > precisely the opposite of a free market. A free market works for the Maasai > or the Tanala because possessing a rudimentary technology means the earth > acts as a check on how much power, in the form of capital, one can acquire. > But here that ain't the case. If you provide folks with the means to > acquire and consolidate in the hands of a few ever greater amounts of wealth > and power, you can be damn sure it will happen. Thus in part the necessity > of "governance." > > Now, I can anticipate your objection, as it's already appeared in the > discussion, that all the rich folks let that wealth trickle down to all the > poor and middling folks. But cultivating a situation where MOST folks spend > 50, 60, 70 hours a week at the factory or bakery or hospital or pizza shop > or walmart without receiving adequate healthcare or retirement insurance or > vacation time and all the while struggling just to keep the house or pay the > rent or pay for the kids while the income gap between them and yr average > CEO is at historic highs, and keeps widening, and where their companies keep > posting record profits, don't sound like a fair or responsible distribution > of wealth. It certainly don't sound like yr trickle-down-doohickey is worth > the paper it's written on. See if yr theories don't meet with some > suspicion on the streets of Michigan. > > But most importantly, one must recognize that affluence don't equate with > health. Fact: according to clinical definitions: Psychologically we're the > sickest population on the planet. Fact: according to stats: Physically > we're the most violent. Hence my problem with fetishizing the marketplace. > Fact: according to annual figures: We're the biggest polluter on the > planet. (yes, I've been to your so-called "third world," more than > once--yes, the streets are dirtier--yes, looking out my window--ah the > spectacle!)(i also noted along those dirtier streets friendlier and livelier > faces and demeanors, if the preponderance of smiles and willingness to talk > and laugh are any kind of index, compared to any Amerikan city or town I've > been to) > > And if I may, you might avoid being labeled "incendiary" if you erase such > blanket condemnations as "green" and "left" from your mind. Unless of > course you can define your terms a little more precisely. Remember your own > claim to logic and rationale. > > Jared Schickling > > p.s. i hope this conversation ends soon. it grows boring. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:11:05 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To ignore history is to ignore facts. History shows that the countries with= the freest economies were and are the richest countries -- for everyone li= ving there. History shows that countries with the least free economies have= been poorest and the worst polluters. =0A=0AYou mistake mixed and interven= tionist economies with free markets. You complain about power, then want to= hand it all over to a handful in government. The free market distributes p= ower. Government concentrates it. At least, history shows this to be true. = Rather than opposing free markets, one should insist on their being institu= tions in place that prevent concentrations of power that create the problem= s to recognize. I will say, though, that the free market system does not oc= cur in tribal situations. It emerges with complexity of society. =0A=0AI am= not at all interested in a equal distribution of wealth. That has never cr= eated wealth anywhere. Resentment is what makes people want equal distribut= ion, and resentment destroys the soul as well as society. Those sour faces = come from resentment, fostered by those who want redistribution of wealth. = A fair distribution of wealth occurs when people engage in things that resu= lt in a just creation of wealth -- when they engage in free and open trade = with others. =0A=0AThe U.S. is not the most violent, though we are up there= .. We are not the biggest polluters, despite the fact that we are the bigges= t consumers. Pollution is waste, and anybody who wants to maximize profits = wants to eliminate waste. We are anti-social in this country for reasons th= at have little to do with the free market, and more to do with certain psyc= hologically isolationist ideologies such as existentialism and postmodernis= m that have pervaded this country. Most rural areas are still quite friendl= y, by the way. =0A=0AI, by the way, am quite green. I don't think I ever us= ed that term in a negative way. I think the Leftist greens are not so much = green as red, so I do oppose them. There is a kind of free market green of = which I am a member. Property rights are the best way to keep the planet gr= een and to protect species (as a recent Science article suggests in recomme= nding we get rid of the fisheries commons if we want to avoid making certai= n species extinct and to avoid a fisheries collapse).=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A= =0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: jared schickling =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, October 11, = 2008 11:35:02 AM=0ASubject: Re: EXCITED for the math=0A=0Adear Troy,=0A=0A"= Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of mindlessly= accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic circle and,= thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people can differ grea= tly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people do not shut th= emselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reasona= ble people."=0A=0AI've heard you say "facts" over and over. But I actually= haven't seen any. Could you please list some in support of your claims? = For example, saying the US isn't the biggest polluter on this planet, the o= ne called Earth, is a claim. Saying a free market is our salvation is a cl= aim. =0A=0AThe problem with freeing up the market is when you add advanced= technologies to such human inevitabilities as lust and greed, the result i= s precisely the opposite of a free market. A free market works for the Maa= sai or the Tanala because possessing a rudimentary technology means the ear= th acts as a check on how much power, in the form of capital, one can acqui= re. But here that ain't the case. If you provide folks with the means to = acquire and consolidate in the hands of a few ever greater amounts of wealt= h and power, you can be damn sure it will happen. Thus in part the necessi= ty of "governance."=0A=0ANow, I can anticipate your objection, as it's alre= ady appeared in the discussion, that all the rich folks let that wealth tri= ckle down to all the poor and middling folks. But cultivating a situation = where MOST folks spend 50, 60, 70 hours a week at the factory or bakery or = hospital or pizza shop or walmart without receiving adequate healthcare or = retirement insurance or vacation time and all the while struggling just to = keep the house or pay the rent or pay for the kids while the income gap bet= ween them and yr average CEO is at historic highs, and keeps widening, and = where their companies keep posting record profits, don't sound like a fair = or responsible distribution of wealth. It certainly don't sound like yr tr= ickle-down-doohickey is worth the paper it's written on. See if yr theorie= s don't meet with some suspicion on the streets of Michigan. =0A=0ABut mos= t importantly, one must recognize that affluence don't equate with health. = Fact: according to clinical definitions: Psychologically we're the sickest= population on the planet. Fact: according to stats: Physically we're the = most violent. Hence my problem with fetishizing the marketplace. Fact: ac= cording to annual figures: We're the biggest polluter on the planet. (yes, = I've been to your so-called "third world," more than once--yes, the streets= are dirtier--yes, looking out my window--ah the spectacle!)(i also noted a= long those dirtier streets friendlier and livelier faces and demeanors, if = the preponderance of smiles and willingness to talk and laugh are any kind = of index, compared to any Amerikan city or town I've been to)=0A=0AAnd if I= may, you might avoid being labeled "incendiary" if you erase such blanket = condemnations as "green" and "left" from your mind. Unless of course you c= an define your terms a little more precisely. Remember your own claim to l= ogic and rationale.=0A=0AJared Schickling=0A=0Ap.s. i hope this conversati= on ends soon. it grows boring.=0A=0A=0A___________________________________= ______________________________=0AWant to do more with Windows Live? Learn = =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie.=0Ahttp://windowslive.com/connect/post/j= amiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT= _TAGLM_WL_domore_092008=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List i= s moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:38:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <351856.46123.qm@web46209.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective effects. Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" poetry, > then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. > > Troy Camplin > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:53:29 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Excited for the math In-Reply-To: <241312.19000.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Having watched this conversation for a bit, I'd like to make a few suggestions towards the possibility of creating a good-faith exchange that might actually open up some interesting debates: 1) Don't use the terms socialism or communism. Clearly, there are several different definitions of it in play in this conversation. Socialism with Chinese characteristics, for example, as I personally witnessed in the PRC, has nothing to do with any theoretical socialism or communism I've ever heard of. While I have far less personal experience with the Kingdom of Cambodia, what people I met there told me would lead me to conclude the same. If you want to say socialism or communism, say instead what you mean by those words. I'm not trying to say here that anyone is using an incorrect definition, merely that right now the use of different definitions is getting in the way of a good conversation. 2) Drop the terms Left and Right; while they can be a useful shorthand, their use in this conversation seems to be leading to a lot of jabs and emotional outbursts that are not helping. 3) Try to ask questions, and not merely rhetorical ones, in your emails. I have never been able to understand someone better without asking questions, and trying to understand someone better is a big part of doing something other than simply try to prove that you're correct. Anyway, these are just a few ideas that come from my own efforts to spend less time engaged in pissing matches on the Internet and more time learning from other people (and if you don't think a woman can piss farther than the guys, then you've never met one who was a Camp Fire girl.) Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:55:17 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0810110952r12aa8b3cme1fd7b42cd88dbeb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Under 'About' : This project originated as a graduate research project the intent of which was to learn whether machine-generated poems could compete in the marketplace with the poems of blooded authors. (They can.) But it has evolved into an aesthetic proposition: That the MACHINE is a legitimate methodology for artistic expression. In so doing it has also become a barometer for measuring the sincerity (even the humanity) of the community of academic writers and critics whose gatekeeper status it openly seeks to subvert: We're pretty sure they aren't wearing any clothes, but you never know, they might just have a corner on the invisible threads market. That is not to say that the project is an elaborate articulation of the often voiced objection to contemporary art that "My 5-year-old could do that!" And the obvious response: "But she didn't." That is not it at all. Rather, the project seeks to disrupt the Academy's mission of exclusion, its selfishness and greed, its supercilious arrogance. It does so by composing texts that democratize both the processes of reading and writing. It's obvious that many of Erica's poems are as good as most of what emerges as academic verse. But more important, absent an author, any reader's reading is a valid reading. In short, We don't need no fucking academician to tell us how we don't get it, how we could never get it. We get it--we *always* got it. Fine with me, it goes with the Dadaists (1916-1920), nothing new under the usual Sun. It also stuck with our private pasts, usually a typical adolescent syndrome. It sticks with us, otherwise we would not be here in this moment typing and typing and trying to invent. The Machine is new, partly. As Eric Elshtain already said, we had Racter before (1970, exceptional, indeed!). The same quotation shows where we are: *poetry is still the biggest snob-racket in the Arts with little poet groups battling for power - Charles Bukowski * *The* We, children of Bukowski. Then, why am I disturbed? Why am I writing in this moment? I don't think that I am a fucking Academician, even if I teach. Nor do I think that Barry Schwabsky is, nor Tom Orange. We could be sharing the rules of a competition for the "best," but within this process there is a refinement that requires a lot of work. If on one side I applaud this Anthology, on the other I do not agree with the verbalization of the Authors. Authors, by the way, who are themselves part of the same process since the Experiment was "originated as a graduate research project." Just this. I accept their work and cheered it. They should be humble enough to accept mine. On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Tom, > > Thank you. I was fascinated to read the perimeters within which Jim > Carpenter has built his program: a grammatical model interacting with a > finite lexical set. I would be curious to know how one can build a > grammatical model which, it seems to me, may contain infinite variations. I > wonder if by grammatical model he means a set of rhetorical devices, which > is more circumscribed. > > I am particularly fascinated by his idea of an "inhibiting" dimension to > contain the "irrational exhuberance" of his software program, its > permutative possibilities, to prevent the result fom turning into > "gibberish." A few months ago, I was discussing with Chris Funkhauser an > idea he posits in the last section of his book, *Pre-Historic Digital > Poetry > * (a great book, by the way). Chris says that for digital poetry truly to > become its own, first, it must develop a sense of the "outside"; second, > the > digital language must integrate the ability to "learn." I responded that, > since in digital work learning consists of positive reinforcements of > responses to it, does learning not progressively narrow down the range > within which the program moves -which is the very opposite of developing an > outside. I told him perhaps what digital work needs is the ability to > un-learn, to create resistances to its cumulative knowledge (or, may be put > in another way, its permutational impulse). Resonance occurs moving through > a resistant space. I wonder if Jim Carpentar's inhibiting dimension is > pointing to something similar to "unlearning" or if it has a more limited > practical application, basically an attempt to create "balance," a kind of > golden rule. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > eric and others, > > > > jim carpenter, who authored the software that created the poems used in > the > > issue 1 anthology, is very clear about his intentions, the availability > of > > the code, demonstrations of the parameters under which it can be run, > etc. > > here: > > > > http://etc.wharton.upenn.edu:8080/Etc3beta/Erika.jsp > > > > note also that stephen mclaughlin, who compiled the list of names and > added > > them to the poems compiled by carpenter's software, like had intentions > > other than (or at least not 100% consistent with) those of carpenter. > > > > allbests, > > tom orange > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:50:52 -0500 > > > From: Eric Elshtain > > > Subject: Let Machine Poetry Be Machine Poetry > > > > > > The great and tawdry paradox of the pseudo-hoaxy "fake anthology" is > that > > > while the project wants to make a cynical and, yes, misanthropic > > statement > > > against human-only poetry in order, it seems, to say "if a machine can > do > > > it, > > > then poetry is dismissed as an endeavor" (I'm 99% certain this is the > > > primary > > > intent of the project) it, the project, must LEGITIMiZE ITSELF by > > > pretending to be > > > human!? > > > > > > In that, the whole project feels like a sham on the face of it. Let > > alone > > > that fact > > > that the "sophisticated algorithm" does nothing that hasn't been done > > > already > > > by poetry-generating programs dating from the 1970s (Racter, for one) > and > > > even earlier. It's not at all that difficult to get a computer to spew > > out > > > free verse > > > using source texts based on some form of Markov Chain or other > stochastic > > > logic, nor is it that difficult, in the open field that is poetry, to > hit > > > upon a few > > > machine-assisted poems that read, in style, like poetry written by mere > > > humans. Joshua Kotin wrote a trim essay a few years back on this very > > > subject: > > > what are the implications of a poetic "style" if a computer can > > > successfully > > > mimic that style? > > > > > > So, yes, machine assisted poetry raises very interesting questions > about > > > poetic > > > origin, readership, authorship, &c but without the need for clap-trap > > one- > > > upmanship (one-upmachineship??) and thumbing one's nose at human-only > > > poetries. > > > > > > Let machine poetry be machine poetry! Let computer-assisted poetry be > > just > > > that--another tool in the procedural verse tool box. It's a shame to > > > reduce > > > machine-assisted poetry to the level of a bad joke. > > > > > > Also--can anyone else use this software? Can we see the code? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Elshtain > > > Editor > > > Beard of Bees Press > > > http://www.beardofbees.com > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, David Chirot wrote: > Dear Alan: > > I don't think that the discussion means that "the right has won," at > all. Perhpas some might see the creators of the programme producing the > Anthology as "the Right" as it is intended as an anti-experimental > example; that is, that a computer program can produce peoms just as > intersting as any given set of "experimental" as well as dead poets. > I wonder if this is the intention - certainly I haven't seen it stated anywhere. But in any case, most poetry, machine- or organism- produced, just isn't interesting in any case! > The anaology with terorism is not to say at all that the anhtology is > terrorist, or even terrifying. For you it brought a sense of wonder, and > wonder is something the world is ever in good need of. Yes! But I do find the analogy problematic. > > I think that --well, I know in my case, what intersts me and brings a > sense of wonder is how many things have a doubled, punning nature, are > two edged swords. On the one hand a method may produce an anthology of > poems; on the other hand the same method may be used to fill a prison > with "suspects" complete with the "evidence" from an "unidentified > source." This is true of almost anything; you can use a fork to eat or to stab someone - for me there has to be a balance. > > Personally, I don't think there is a "terrorist" aspect to the project in > itself,; rather, like many hoaxes, it is intended to expose an aspect of > something whith which the authors are in disagreement, or are crritical of, > or simply laughing at. > But certainly it's not a hoax - it's far too transparent for that. Which is one of the things that makes it interesting - it occupies an anomalous position in relation to the 'fake.' > The real Terror is when the State uses forged documents and faked evidence > to begin genocidal Wars as the US State has in Iraq. The use of lies to > mureder milions and destroy an entire society and culture--well, the US has > done this before, right "at home," it is only that the technology used has > changed. Absolutely, not to mention doing this on our own turf as well. > > Barry has a very good point. I don't know if anyone here--I am sure > many probably have!--has run into someone they know who is a hard core > Dead Head, and has just acquired about a hundred new bootleg tapes and > CDs of Dead shows from various tours that they immmediately kindap you > and hold you hostage until you have gone with "on the journey" for many > long long long hours, far longer than one can bear, if one were not a > captive audeince so to speak. > Most of the deadheads I know are far kinder than that! > When you have heard about fifty different versions of the same song > which are being played amazingly almost exactly the same--even the > "jams" after awhile are incredibly similar--the non Dead Head is > bewildered by the endurance for montony and self-consistence which one's > Dead Head friend has. yet al the while, the Dead head will point out > some very tiny difference, some slightly different vibration in the > Cosmic groove--as though this is a Revelation from the Mighty Source > itself. That's generally true of restrictive styles in general, even blues or Carl Andre. - > > I've been passionate about some artists in the same manner, and listened > to every single creaky old vinyl, every bootleg, every cassette recorded > radio show, of some one whose music I was manic about--and within the > same song performed a different time heard entire symphonies of > difference, where others might not distinguish anything much other than > a variation in the degree of the quality of the recording from good to > barely non-noise sounds. > Examples? This is interesting - > [...] > Lists of names with affixed "crimes" have been produced throughout > history to send persons to prison or beheadings, the gallows or simply > to vanish into the Blacklist oblivions. It is simply that now with > computers having at their disposal such massive lists of names and > amounts of information--as well as disinformation--one could indeed > compile both an Anthology of poetry as well as a list of suspects to be > "detaineed indefinietly." > But lists don't _inherently_ have these connotations, any more than positive connotations. And for lists, of course there's Auschwitz, the HUAC blacklists, all sorts of lists; even the Poetics list is just that, a doubled list, of subscribers < email posts > archives. > The wonder to me is how different--or even the same-- persons, taking > the same method, may see quite different methods of employing it. Which is also true of a fork or just about anything, I think. > > After all, not that long after the invention of writing in ancient > Iraq--the first forgeries also began to appear. > That I haven't read, are you talking about after the bullae? I think Egyptian hieroglyphics have been pushed back earlier recently. I also think that even before the invention of writing - graffiti! - in other words, a poetics of the (im)proper name. > Considering what has happened to Iraq based on forgeries-- one may ask, > is that thanks there is for the invention of writing?-- Again, I'm likely to thank Egypt; I also think China can be pushed back. Not to mention Acheulian pebbles which are a form of writing, from France, and Marshak's early book on scratched enumerations/tallies on bones going tens of thousands of years back in Europe. More and more I think the idea of _an_ origin of writing - in the sense of a singularity - is going to be questioned. I find it interesting as an aside that Sarah Palin can't deal with the 'issues' but her handlers have her verbally spewing hatred which usually starts and stops with being local except for the occasional new/byte that comes up here to Brooklyn. > > As though writing itself is to pen a Pandora's Box!-- > [...] - Alan, thanks ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:36:50 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <351856.46123.qm@web46209.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" > poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. > > Troy Camplin > Yes, it can write a sonnet. Why are algorithms "mere"? Have you ever written one? In fact algorithms or machines or organisms can produce boring or interesting writing, whatever, which increasingly has very little to do with the source of the production but more with the wonder and delight of the reader. - Alan ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:44:38 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Excited for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable now i get it, although i haven't studied systems science. your politics is = simply indeterminate, since it doesn't come under any=A0particular rubric, = meaning, it doesn't follow any=A0one political program as currently practic= ed in the States. Interesting. Of course, economist,=A0as they=A0practice t= heir "dreary science," do not exactly inspire confidence. Bernard Henri Lev= y, a leftist, has been very critical of the left, a good idea. Too often, p= eople treat politics as though they were cheering on their favorite footbal= l team. =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, Octo= ber 11, 2008 12:45:04 PM=0ASubject: Re: Excited for the math=0A=0ALet me cl= arify, then. I oppose the following economic systems: marxism, socialism, f= ascism, Keyneseanism, capitalism (as defined by Marx, who coined the term),= and interventionism by any name. All of these are man-designed systems or = man-interventionary systems. I support naturally-occurring spontaneous orde= r economies. That's not a right-wing position, as the political Right is no= t pro-market (Pat Buchanan once said "I oppose the free market."). If you c= onsider Bush to be a member of the Right, then the recent activities of him= in regards to the economy should belie any support of the free market, as = he has done nothing but undermine it. The most recent evidence: the suggest= ion that the federal government partially nationalize the banks. That's not= pro free markets by any stretch of the imagination. That's the kind of thi= ngs you would expect from Hugo Chavez. =0A=0AI'm not saying there aren't go= od ideas in Marx. I take good ideas wherever they come from. But if one is = to take the overall political ideology of Marxism, I do oppose it. The cont= emporary Left is primarily Marxist, though of course the Left historically = had its origins in the French Revolution. Still, the secular=A0 egalitarian= ist ideals are still to be found there. The Right also had its origins in t= he French Revolution -- they were the religious royalists. Neither side wer= e friends of the free market. At the time "liberals" were those who, like m= e, supported the free market, supported representational democracy, support= ed science, and supported free expression in the arts and in life. Over tim= e, the Left began to take on support of democracy, seeing it as a way of ac= hieving their goals through the manipulation of the populace. Science was m= aking such progress that some began to argue that we could create a "scient= ific society," which is where socialism=0Ahad its foundation. The technocra= ts believed that we could learn all there is to know about the physical wor= ld, therefore we could learn everything about how an economy runs, and we c= ould therefore learn how to design an economy so that it was perfectly effi= cient and everyone was treated equally. The science of the time showed them= that, though what we have since learned from systems science is that such = a dream is impossible. Still, you hear it in political rhetoric all the tim= e with promises to "make things more efficient." Science has left the Left = far behind. The response? To adopt an anti-science postmodernist world view= . Which is where we are now at politically in the U.S. In Europe, they are = still trying to fit systems science into Marxism, which requires them ignor= ing what systems science says about systems, particularly self-organization= . Other problems occur when they don't differentiate between entities and e= nvironments. =0A=0AOther things that don't place me anywhere near the Right= : my strong support for gay rights, including state recognition of gay marr= iage, my support for equal rights and protections under the law, my opposit= ion to the government being involved in private life, my support for drug l= egalization and for legalizing prostitution and gambling, and my support fo= r transparency in government and economy. My cosmology is big bang cosmolog= y and emergent complexity, and I take an evolutionary perspective on most t= hings. Of course, much of this puts me in direct opposition to many on the = Left in the U.S. as well. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A----- Original Message --= --=0AFrom: Jason Quackenbush =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.= EDU=0ASent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:38:55 PM=0ASubject: Re: Excited for = the math=0A=0AYour behavior is incendiary because you make statements like:= "Being=A0 =0Aflexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professo= rs threw=A0 =0Aat you in school" and "The only inflexibility to thought I h= ave=A0 =0Aencountered have been from the Left" those are very broad, very= =A0 =0Aunqualified statements which attack large swaths of the subscribers= =A0 =0Ato this mailing list which i think most anyone would acknowledge has= =A0 =0Aa primarily left leaning demographic.=0A=0Ai would quibble that your= support of open markets and what appear to=A0 =0Ame to be largely libertar= ian sympathies are in fact right wing=A0 =0Apositions. but i'm not particul= arly interested in those sorts of=A0 =0Aconversations. what i would say is = that the economic and political=A0 =0Aview that you appear to support is on= e that to me appears to be every=A0 =0Abit as sectarian as the brands of ma= rxism you appear to be talking=A0 =0Aabout, which, and please correct me if= i'm wrong, seem to be limited=A0 =0Ato only extremist views like marxist/l= eninism and maoism.=0A=0Athere are interesting ideas to be found in marxism= , and while i don't=A0 =0Aconsider myself a marxist I do think that you're = doing the same thing=A0 =0Ayou accuse leftists of by painting marxism with = so broad a brush.=0A=0Aof course, this whole conversation ignores the real = differences=A0 =0Abetween the political economic philosophies of social dem= ocracy,=A0 =0Asocialism, communism, and marxism. and of course, one does no= t need=A0 =0Ato be any of those things to make an intelligent critique of= =A0 =0Amonetarist/milton friedman style laissez faire capitalism. The term= =A0 =0A"free market fundamentalist" was coined by Joseph Stiglitz, who is a= =A0 =0Aneo-Keynesian, and like it are not Keynes and his descendents are=A0= =0Aalso capitalists. George Soros additionally makes a strong critique=A0 = =0Aof the laissez faire in favor of strong mixed economies, and my guess=A0= =0Ais that you and he probably agree on an awful lot.=0A=0Aif i've misunde= rstood or misconstrued your positions at all, i=A0 =0Aapologize for that. i= simply wanted to point out that there appeared=A0 =0Ato be a disconnect be= tween the style of your rhetoric and its=A0 =0Acontent, as there was what a= ppeared to me to be a contradiction=A0 =0Abetween your criticism of your op= position and the manner in which=A0 =0Athat criticism was offered. a certai= n kind of postmodern read could=A0 =0Abe taken of your statements that impl= ied that everything you've=A0 =0Awritten is in fact ironic.=0A=0Athere are = elements of that in Plato's republic as well, though, so=A0 =0Aeven if i'm = right you're in pretty good company.=0A=0A=0AOn Oct 11, 2008, at 9:42 AM, T= roy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I a= ccuse people of=A0 =0A> mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular re= ligion and=A0 =0A> hermeneutic circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the f= act that=A0 =0A> reasonable people can differ greatly on how they interpret= the=A0 =0A> facts -- but reasonable people do not shut themselves off from= the=A0 =0A> facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reasonable peopl= e.=0A>=0A> My arguments are not anti-democratic, as you imply. Democracy, t= oo,=A0 =0A> is a spontaneous order -- but of a different kind. Nor are my= =A0 =0A> arguments from the Right. I have as little use for the thoughtless= =A0 =0A> ideology of the Right as I do for that of the Left. I am intereste= d=A0 =0A> in facts, when it comes to economics. Ideas belong to the realm o= f=A0 =0A> politics and philosophy. If you want to discuss ideas, we can mov= e=A0 =0A> the discussion into those arenas.=0A>=0A> And why is it that my b= ehavior is "incendiary," but all those on=A0 =0A> the Left who have been at= tacking me aren't? It seems to me that the=A0 =0A> only way you can even be= gin to think they haven't been incendiary=A0 =0A> is because you side with = them. Please note, though, that up to this=A0 =0A> point, I haven't yet com= plained about such irrational tactics.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A> ---= -- Original Message ----=0A> From: Jason Quackenbush =0A> To:= POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:02:11 PM= =0A> Subject: Re: Excited for the math=0A>=0A> attributing the ideas of the= opposition soley to the mindless=A0 =0A> acceptance of dogma (an epistemol= ogy that knows no political=A0 =0A> allegiance) rather than accepting that = reasonable people can differ=A0 =0A> greatly on fundamental principles of p= olitics and economics is the=A0 =0A> root cause of close-mindedness. withou= t taking opposing viewpoints=A0 =0A> seriously, which clearly you do not gi= ven both your dismissal of=A0 =0A> the opposition as worthy of the title an= d your obvious ignorance of=A0 =0A> the arguments in favor of progressive d= emocratic principles, a=A0 =0A> claim to open mindedness is absurd.=0A>=0A>= I am pointing this out to you not because I want to insult you,=A0 =0A> al= though I grant that saying this about someone is insulting, but=A0 =0A> bec= ause i don't think you realize quite how absurd your claims are=A0 =0A> and= would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would=A0 =0A> lik= e to avoid such errors in the future.=0A>=0A> I would also like to point ou= t that what you may not also realize=A0 =0A> is that your incendiary behavi= or and ocmments may have the opposite=A0 =0A> effect that you intend. In my= own case, i found myself a center=A0 =0A> left classical liberal driven to= the left looking for political=A0 =0A> allegiance thanks to the ignorance = and tactical foulplay that's=A0 =0A> come from the right over the last ten = to fifteen years. In other=A0 =0A> words, the kind of absurdity on display = in your attitudes sir are=A0 =0A> precisely the sort of thing that radicali= zed me. it had nothing to=A0 =0A> do with my college professors.=0A>=0A>=0A= > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A>=0A>> Well, let's see, I'm 1)= not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so=A0 =0A>> it would be impossible = for me to be a fascist. The only=A0 =0A>> inflexibility to thought I have e= ncountered have been from the=A0 =0A>> Left, whose thoughts have certainly = fossilized over the years. Of=A0 =0A>> course, that is because of their str= ong aversion to poetry, as=A0 =0A>> demonstrated by the "poets" on the post= modern Left (which in fact=A0 =0A>> has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism bo= th). Being flexible doesn't=A0 =0A>> mean believing anything yur Leftist pr= ofessors threw at you in=A0 =0A>> school, nor is it believing just anything= any everything. Open- =0A>> mindedness and being willing to change your mi= nd based on a change=A0 =0A>> in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so= open-minded your=A0 =0A>> brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything= , no.=0A>>=0A>> Troy Camplin=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> ----- Original Message ----=0A>= > From: Roy Exley =0A>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFA= LO.EDU=0A>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM=0A>> Subject: Re: Exc= ited for the math=0A>>=0A>> Dear Troy Camplin,=0A>>=0A>> Interdisciplinaria= n or no, I think you might be in the wrong place=A0 =0A>> - I sense=0A>> th= ere are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem=A0 =0A>> to= be=0A>> attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have=A0 = =0A>> demonstrated=0A>> more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces= of allegiance to=0A>> fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for = poetry and not=A0 =0A>> politics,=0A>> (I know, poetry without politics is = a paradox - but politics=A0 =0A>> without poetry=0A>> is the fossilization = of culture!) so I take back what I said.=0A>>=0A>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=0A>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check= =A0 =0A>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ =0A>= > welcome.html=0A>>=0A>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A>> The Poetics Lis= t is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=A0 =0A>> guidelines & sub= /unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ =0A>> welcome.html=0A>>=0A>=0A= > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not= accept all posts. Check=A0 =0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.bu= ffalo.edu/poetics/ =0A> welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=A0 =0A> = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ =0A> welcome.h= tml=0A=0AJason Quackenbush=0Ajfq@myuw.net=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept = all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetic= s/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:28:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline One of the reasons I want to take my time carefully replying on this thread is that the literary hoax is directly aimed at many of the reasons this lis= t devolved into obsessive postings about computers, identity, and experimentation, and also about identity and hoaxes and writing and then became a mostly announcements list. Many, if not most, hoaxes are misanthropic; this is certainly no exception. See the JACKET hoax issue for more information about a few 20th century poetry hoaxes (including my article on Marjorie Seiffert, who was involved in an anti-modernism hoax). The primary genesis, for the editor, is supposedly "One morning about a month ago, I received a message from the Poetics List that began something like 'Announcing Issue 1 of Broken Caterpillar. Featuring new poems by . . . followed by a list of 45 poets' names. I'd see= n one of them on Silliman's blogroll, but the rest were just flat names. Barely names -- ethereal text strings. Keep in mind that I receive hundreds of these announcements per year." Words =96 nouns =96 names =96 no longer indicate anything to the future edi= tor; he feels besieged by an announcements list he has chosen to join. He doesn't manipulate text well, as the dupes in the names list indicate. Find and replace two spaces with one, alpha sort, delete dupes. He finds the announcements nature of the list funny, and the complaints of those whose names he's used =96 or not =96 numbingly funny. I don't think = it funny, but this is the hoax's point. A feeling of exclusion yields to sang froid when others feel excluded? The list ought to be dominated by divisiv= e arguments about hoax poetry and computers & poetry, and not about announcements? I would love to find the spot in the archive pointing to Broken Caterpillar. If it is any solace at all, Bob Cobbing is probably on the list because there were so many tribute sections in 'zines after he died. As I've mentioned, I am concerned with my name being associated with what I did not write, not because I wish to protect my literary reputation or identity (I am far too online not to have my identity stolen with great regularity), but because this is a poorly-designed and executed literary project of misanthropic intent I do not share (I am made a target, in fact) and it is repeatable. Names of (mostly) artists have been associated with things they did not make. The anthology demonstrates malign results can spring from a fairly benign idiocy. "The seal is broken," as my college friend Keith McCabe would say. The second post could be about Carpenter, but it could also be about Ray Biachi's great book I just published that uses, oh, you know, Mein Kampf an= d some fairly simple web-based cutup engines as starting points to individual pieces. He wrote it; Waltraud Haas did some great drawings to complete the collaboration. I hope to try to enter some of my thinking into the discussion, because while I have long been interested and involved in computers and poetry, I really don't follow the beaten path. Jim Carpenter's work is I feel misapplied / poorly designed in this hoax. But just because copyright is waived and/or fair use / creative commons use is encouraged doesn't mean Carpenter didn't write the code, btw. --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Machine poetry In-Reply-To: <20081011085917.BMA71085@m4500-00.uchicago.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>it isn't about trying to fool people into believing what was > written by a > computer was written by a person. it's about trying to explore the > difference as poetically, dramatically, and thoughtfully as possible.<< > > Then why submit poems composed by his software, like Carpenter > has done, to > journals without mentioning the fact that a computer assisted in > the poem's > composition if not to try and perpetrate, at least in part, a > sort of hoax hinging > on the fact that people (editors in particular) were "fooled"? > This action also > seems to fly in the face of exploring "difference," no? > > All I was saying is that computer poetry can raise all the kinds > of questions and > make the kind of explorations you mention without all the folderol. > > I think you also mistook annoyance for fear--yes, many people do > not like the > idea of machines "encroaching" into what they consider a purely human > endeavor, but I have no such fear. Machines can do things in > poetry humans > can not or dare not, but humans can also do things a machine can not be > programmed (as yet) to do. > > From the outside, looking through the lens of the actions > Carpenter has taken > with his software, I think it's fair to think that there's > something snarky lurking > within... > > Eric Elshtain > Editor > Beard of Bees Press > http://www.beardofbees.com Those who have children usually like to raise them not to inflict damage but to contribute in the spirit of cooperation, enjoyment, and benevolence. We would do well to extend that attitude to our art works, also. Pranks will amuse during adolescence. The power of the prank to amuse doesn't last long though. There is much more serious work to do in machine poetry than fooling editors. The important issues are as important as the question of what we are, what it is to be human. When we look at the poetry communities and the dynamics thereof, what gets lauded, accepted, and why, well, it's all over the map from silly to serious (and will be for the duration). More important is why we ourselves are involved in poetry and what we ourselves are trying to do. Eventually it isn't sufficient simply to subvert the corpus but to offer a body of work--whether of poetry or criticism or whatever, poemy poems or some alternative--that *is the thing itself you want to bring into the world*, not just criticisms of what already is. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:43:24 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <351856.46123.qm@web46209.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit forms are an algorithm. although i've never tried, i would think that getting a machine to compose something according to the following algorithm print fourteen lines each must contain 5 feet or redo final output must adhere to rhyme scheme abab cdcd efef gg or redo insert stanza breaks at lines four, eight, and 12 would not be all the difficult. now, it may not be a good sonnet, and that's where the art of something like Erika T. Carter comes in is in the figuring out of what the machine has to do in order to pass quality muster. On Oct 12, 2008, at 12:49 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it > write a sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of > "experimental" poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing > anything that interesting. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: David Chirot > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:04:56 AM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > Dear Alan: > > I don't think that the discussion means that "the right has won," > at all. > Perhpas some might see the creators of the programme producing the > Anthology > as "the Right" as it is intended as an anti-experimental example; > that is, > that a computer program can produce peoms just as intersting as any > given > set of "experimental" as well as dead poets. > > The anaology with terorism is not to say at all that the anhtology is > terrorist, or even terrifying. For you it brought a sense of > wonder, and > wonder is something the world is ever in good need of. > > I think that --well, I know in my case, what intersts me and brings > a sense > of wonder is how many things have a doubled, punning nature, are > two edged > swords. On the one hand a method may produce an anthology of > poems; on the > other hand the same method may be used to fill a prison with > "suspects" > complete with the "evidence" from an "unidentified source." > > Personally, I don't think there is a "terrorist" aspect to the > project in > itself,; rather, like many hoaxes, it is intended to expose an > aspect of > something whith which the authors are in disagreement, or are > crritical of, > or simply laughing at. > > The real Terror is when the State uses forged documents and faked > evidence > to begin genocidal Wars as the US State has in Iraq. The use of > lies to > mureder milions and destroy an entire society and culture--well, > the US has > done this before, right "at home," it is only that the technology > used has > changed. > > Barry has a very good point. I don't know if anyone here--I am > sure many > probably have!--has run into someone they know who is a hard core > Dead Head, > and has just acquired about a hundred new bootleg tapes and CDs of > Dead > shows from various tours that they immmediately kindap you and hold > you > hostage until you have gone with "on the journey" for many long > long long > hours, far longer than one can bear, if one were not a captive > audeince so > to speak. > > When you have heard about fifty different versions of the same song > which > are being played amazingly almost exactly the same--even the "jams" > after > awhile are incredibly similar--the non Dead Head is bewildered by the > endurance for montony and self-consistence which one's Dead Head > friend > has. yet al the while, the Dead head will point out some very tiny > difference, some slightly different vibration in the Cosmic groove--as > though this is a Revelation from the > Mighty Source itself. > > I've been passionate about some artists in the same manner, and > listened to > every single creaky old vinyl, every bootleg, every cassette > recorded radio > show, of some one whose music I was manic about--and within the > same song > performed a different time heard entire symphonies of difference, > where > others might not distinguish anything much other than a variation > in the > degree of the quality of the recording from good to barely non- > noise sounds. > > > I also used to collect versions of the smae song done by as many > artists as > I could find, especially obscure Punk gargae band versions of > massively > covered songs. One might hear five or six bands in a row that sounded > almost identical, trying their hardest to sound note for note like the > Yardbirds, say. Then would come some explosion and a suddenly > completely > different version, so different that in effect it was a completely > new song. > > (In Jamaica, when an artist cut a cover, they called it simply > "Version.") > > As an auctioneer in Vermont my brother and I were fans of said > once, when > selling "a real special pair of tires,"--"what makes these tires so > special, > you see, is that one's the same and the other's different." > > And they sold at quite a good price! > > Lists of names with affixed "crimes" have been produced throughout > history > to send persons to prison or beheadings, the gallows or simply to > vanish > into the Blacklist oblivions. It is simply that now with computers > having > at their disposal such massive lists of names and amounts of > information--as > well as disinformation--one could indeed compile both an Anthology > of poetry > as well as a list of suspects to be "detaineed indefinietly." > > The wonder to me is how different--or even the same-- persons, > taking the > same method, may see quite different methods of employing it. > > After all, not that long after the invention of writing in ancient > Iraq--the > first forgeries also began to appear. > > Considering what has happened to Iraq based on forgeries-- > one may ask, is that thanks there is for the invention of writing?-- > > As though writing itself is to pen a Pandora's Box!-- > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:28 PM, Barry Schwabsky < > b.schwabsky@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >> given that a certain number of "cursory read >> Catherine Dalt writes: >> >> >> given that a certain number of "cursory readers" and >> one "writer" see a homogenity, and a certain number of readers -- >> and an >> editor -- see a divergence: are the recombinant poems actually >> separable, >> or >> individual poems? >> >> >> ---An interesting question, but one that arises any time a body of >> work >> seems self-consistent. Maurice Sceve's Delie, anyone? >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:14:01 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Excited for the math In-Reply-To: <241312.19000.qm@web46207.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit now we're getting somewhere. i would put the following question to you: on what grounds do you assert that spontaneous order economies are better than the mixed economies of the sort present in the developed world? in answering, i'd also like you to answer the following questions: 1.) what is the standard by which an economy can be judged better or worse than another? 2.) how do you know that your ideological preference for naturally operating unregulated markets would work the way you think they well in a technologically advanced society given that the theory you hold has never been attempted in such a system? Particularly given that moves in that direction have often been shown to be disastrous on a macroeconomic scale (see our latest financial crisis, argentina in the nineties, the great depression) second point: while your historical breakdown of the roots of the left and right tying them to the french revolution are interesting, I would argue that they are in fact not found there, although it's clear that the impact of the revolution on the ideals of the enlightenment is important and must be recognized. I would in fact argue that the enlightenment, from which the political philosophies we are talking about actually originate, has it's roots much earlier in the protestant reformation and the english civil war. the right left divide that obtained in the run up to the french revolution is a convenient political shorthand but in fact the issues exist on something more than the one dimensional scale that that implies. this is civics 101 stuff, though, with which I'm sure you're familiar. the point i would make though is that given your opposition towards both left and right on some issues, it makes more sense for you to abjure those phrases and try to speak in different terms that are less loaded ideologically if only to avoid the retort that your own beliefs are right wing. because, sir, your beliefs on political economy are in our discourse right wing. granted they are not the ONLY beliefs held by members of the right, but the sort of economic anarcholibertarianism that you are describing, if one has to stick it on the spectrum, is more in line with the fundamental philosophies of the american right (reduced government intervention in all things due to a fundamental mistrust of government to either act effectively and/or avoid abusing power.) It's a powerful philosophy and it's one that is well supported in the tradition of jeffersonian republicanism, which I think is one of the greatest things that the American experiment has offered the world. however it's worth noting that while Jefferson was certainly a radical, and given his support of the reign of terror one very much in line with the original french left, the ideas of jeffersonian republicanism due to their allegiance with proslavery democrats and the states rights ideologies of the antebellum south, as well as the later allegiance to corporatism and anti-communism post world war II, have become in the american discourse right wing positions. you are of course free to dispute this, but i don't think i'm the only one who sees things that way. of course you will be able to find examples of right wing politicians who disagree with you. but thats because there isn't just one right wing in america, just as there isn't just one left wing. the right wing of pat buchanan, descended from william jennings bryan (a remarkable man with whom i find myself in the strange position of disagreeing almost as often as i agree) is not the same right wing as George Bush sr, which strangely enough, is not the same right wing as george w. bush jr. And none of them are the same right wing as richard nixon who for all of his personal flaws is also a much more complex figure than the popular characature allows for. In closing, I would argue that the complexity of angloamerican politics in particular, given the divides along the axes of liberty vs. fraternity, liberty vs. equality, and equality vs. fraternity, to which fundamental conflicts I think we are all heirs, left and right alike, requires much more careful language in discussing both individual issues and the labels we wish to attach to our ideas and eachother. -J On Oct 12, 2008, at 12:45 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Let me clarify, then. I oppose the following economic systems: > marxism, socialism, fascism, Keyneseanism, capitalism (as defined > by Marx, who coined the term), and interventionism by any name. All > of these are man-designed systems or man-interventionary systems. I > support naturally-occurring spontaneous order economies. That's not > a right-wing position, as the political Right is not pro-market > (Pat Buchanan once said "I oppose the free market."). If you > consider Bush to be a member of the Right, then the recent > activities of him in regards to the economy should belie any > support of the free market, as he has done nothing but undermine > it. The most recent evidence: the suggestion that the federal > government partially nationalize the banks. That's not pro free > markets by any stretch of the imagination. That's the kind of > things you would expect from Hugo Chavez. > > I'm not saying there aren't good ideas in Marx. I take good ideas > wherever they come from. But if one is to take the overall > political ideology of Marxism, I do oppose it. The contemporary > Left is primarily Marxist, though of course the Left historically > had its origins in the French Revolution. Still, the secular > egalitarianist ideals are still to be found there. The Right also > had its origins in the French Revolution -- they were the religious > royalists. Neither side were friends of the free market. At the > time "liberals" were those who, like me, supported the free market, > supported representational democracy, supported science, and > supported free expression in the arts and in life. Over time, the > Left began to take on support of democracy, seeing it as a way of > achieving their goals through the manipulation of the populace. > Science was making such progress that some began to argue that we > could create a "scientific society," which is where socialism > had its foundation. The technocrats believed that we could learn > all there is to know about the physical world, therefore we could > learn everything about how an economy runs, and we could therefore > learn how to design an economy so that it was perfectly efficient > and everyone was treated equally. The science of the time showed > them that, though what we have since learned from systems science > is that such a dream is impossible. Still, you hear it in political > rhetoric all the time with promises to "make things more > efficient." Science has left the Left far behind. The response? To > adopt an anti-science postmodernist world view. Which is where we > are now at politically in the U.S. In Europe, they are still trying > to fit systems science into Marxism, which requires them ignoring > what systems science says about systems, particularly self- > organization. Other problems occur when they don't differentiate > between entities and environments. > > Other things that don't place me anywhere near the Right: my strong > support for gay rights, including state recognition of gay > marriage, my support for equal rights and protections under the > law, my opposition to the government being involved in private > life, my support for drug legalization and for legalizing > prostitution and gambling, and my support for transparency in > government and economy. My cosmology is big bang cosmology and > emergent complexity, and I take an evolutionary perspective on most > things. Of course, much of this puts me in direct opposition to > many on the Left in the U.S. as well. > > Troy Camplin > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jason Quackenbush > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:38:55 PM > Subject: Re: Excited for the math > > Your behavior is incendiary because you make statements like: "Being > flexible doesn't mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw > at you in school" and "The only inflexibility to thought I have > encountered have been from the Left" those are very broad, very > unqualified statements which attack large swaths of the subscribers > to this mailing list which i think most anyone would acknowledge has > a primarily left leaning demographic. > > i would quibble that your support of open markets and what appear to > me to be largely libertarian sympathies are in fact right wing > positions. but i'm not particularly interested in those sorts of > conversations. what i would say is that the economic and political > view that you appear to support is one that to me appears to be every > bit as sectarian as the brands of marxism you appear to be talking > about, which, and please correct me if i'm wrong, seem to be limited > to only extremist views like marxist/leninism and maoism. > > there are interesting ideas to be found in marxism, and while i don't > consider myself a marxist I do think that you're doing the same thing > you accuse leftists of by painting marxism with so broad a brush. > > of course, this whole conversation ignores the real differences > between the political economic philosophies of social democracy, > socialism, communism, and marxism. and of course, one does not need > to be any of those things to make an intelligent critique of > monetarist/milton friedman style laissez faire capitalism. The term > "free market fundamentalist" was coined by Joseph Stiglitz, who is a > neo-Keynesian, and like it are not Keynes and his descendents are > also capitalists. George Soros additionally makes a strong critique > of the laissez faire in favor of strong mixed economies, and my guess > is that you and he probably agree on an awful lot. > > if i've misunderstood or misconstrued your positions at all, i > apologize for that. i simply wanted to point out that there appeared > to be a disconnect between the style of your rhetoric and its > content, as there was what appeared to me to be a contradiction > between your criticism of your opposition and the manner in which > that criticism was offered. a certain kind of postmodern read could > be taken of your statements that implied that everything you've > written is in fact ironic. > > there are elements of that in Plato's republic as well, though, so > even if i'm right you're in pretty good company. > > > On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of >> mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and >> hermeneutic circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that >> reasonable people can differ greatly on how they interpret the >> facts -- but reasonable people do not shut themselves off from the >> facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions with reasonable people. >> >> My arguments are not anti-democratic, as you imply. Democracy, too, >> is a spontaneous order -- but of a different kind. Nor are my >> arguments from the Right. I have as little use for the thoughtless >> ideology of the Right as I do for that of the Left. I am interested >> in facts, when it comes to economics. Ideas belong to the realm of >> politics and philosophy. If you want to discuss ideas, we can move >> the discussion into those arenas. >> >> And why is it that my behavior is "incendiary," but all those on >> the Left who have been attacking me aren't? It seems to me that the >> only way you can even begin to think they haven't been incendiary >> is because you side with them. Please note, though, that up to this >> point, I haven't yet complained about such irrational tactics. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Jason Quackenbush >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:02:11 PM >> Subject: Re: Excited for the math >> >> attributing the ideas of the opposition soley to the mindless >> acceptance of dogma (an epistemology that knows no political >> allegiance) rather than accepting that reasonable people can differ >> greatly on fundamental principles of politics and economics is the >> root cause of close-mindedness. without taking opposing viewpoints >> seriously, which clearly you do not given both your dismissal of >> the opposition as worthy of the title and your obvious ignorance of >> the arguments in favor of progressive democratic principles, a >> claim to open mindedness is absurd. >> >> I am pointing this out to you not because I want to insult you, >> although I grant that saying this about someone is insulting, but >> because i don't think you realize quite how absurd your claims are >> and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt that you would >> like to avoid such errors in the future. >> >> I would also like to point out that what you may not also realize >> is that your incendiary behavior and ocmments may have the opposite >> effect that you intend. In my own case, i found myself a center >> left classical liberal driven to the left looking for political >> allegiance thanks to the ignorance and tactical foulplay that's >> come from the right over the last ten to fifteen years. In other >> words, the kind of absurdity on display in your attitudes sir are >> precisely the sort of thing that radicalized me. it had nothing to >> do with my college professors. >> >> >> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: >> >>> Well, let's see, I'm 1) not a nationalist, 2) not a socialist, so >>> it would be impossible for me to be a fascist. The only >>> inflexibility to thought I have encountered have been from the >>> Left, whose thoughts have certainly fossilized over the years. Of >>> course, that is because of their strong aversion to poetry, as >>> demonstrated by the "poets" on the postmodern Left (which in fact >>> has ITs roots in fascism and Marxism both). Being flexible doesn't >>> mean believing anything yur Leftist professors threw at you in >>> school, nor is it believing just anything any everything. Open- >>> mindedness and being willing to change your mind based on a change >>> in your knowledge of the facts, yes; being so open-minded your >>> brain falls out so that you'll fall for anything, no. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Roy Exley >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:57:12 AM >>> Subject: Re: Excited for the math >>> >>> Dear Troy Camplin, >>> >>> Interdisciplinarian or no, I think you might be in the wrong place >>> - I sense >>> there are no converted to preach to here - which is what you seem >>> to be >>> attempting. I imagined that an interdisciplinarian would have >>> demonstrated >>> more flexibility of thought and certainly no traces of allegiance to >>> fascism. Hey anyway, I thought this was a forum for poetry and not >>> politics, >>> (I know, poetry without politics is a paradox - but politics >>> without poetry >>> is the fossilization of culture!) so I take back what I said. >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome.html >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 00:11:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Carol Novack Subject: Announcing Issue 10 of Mad Hatters' Review Comments: To: lit-events@yahoogroups.com, e-pubs@yahoogroups.com, wom-po MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline POETRY Michael Bassett Ray Brown Niels Hav Steve Katz Simon Perchik AUDIO TEXT COLLAGE The Memorials to Future Catastrophes Distant Early Warning System The Memorials to Future Catastrophes Distant Early Warning System Davis Schneiderman & Don Meyer Issue 10 Music Gallery Fish Egg Philosophy CARTOONS Cartoons by Sheila McCann FICTION Ann Bogle Kane X. Faucher Rebecca Goodman Tim Horvath Forrest Roth Terese Svoboda WHATNOTS Tania Hershman Allan Horwitz Jalina Mhyana DOCU- FICTION Harold Jaffe CNFic Ted Pelton AUDIO FEATURE Larissa Shmailo FEATURED FILMS by Army of Clowns Featured Films "A Human Being A Machine" & "I do...I do...I do" COLUMNS Rich Andrews Sir Castor Bayley Tantra Bensko Domenick Capobianco Rae Desmond Jones Carol Novack Fatima Shahnaz VISPO Gallery Curated by C. Mehrl Bennett DRAMA Raymond Federman Issue 10 Art Gallery Slide Show BOOK & WEBSITE REVIEWS 'Words & Junk' & 'My Kimono Book'by C. Mehrl Bennett 'Aqua Regia' by F. J. Bergmann '100 Papers' by Liesl Jobson 'Line and Pause' by Forrest Roth 'A Cure for Suicide' by Larissa Shmailo The FIRST COMBINATION SPECIAL VIDEO CONTEST INTERVIEWS mIEKAL aND & Camille Bacos [Video] Harold Jaffe & Terese Svoboda "Interior Design" CONTEST WINNERS: Mary Hamrick Jenna Caruso Beebe Barksdale-Bruner COVER MUSIC by Austin Publicover MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: edgy & enlightened art, literature, & music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:02:20 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Marsh Hawk Review, Inaugural Issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The inaugural issue of the Marsh Hawk Review is now viewable. Marsh Hawk Review is an online poetry journal sponsored by the Marsh Hawk Press collective. Marsh Hawk Review will appear twice a year, under the revolving editorship of collective members. Each issue will offer a selection of poems solicited by the editor, in addition to new work posted by poets in the collective. First Issue Contributors Include: Jane Augustine, Claudia Carlson, Joseph Donahue, Thomas Fink and Maya Diablo Mason, Norman Finkelstein, Edward Foster, Michael Heller, Burt Kimmelman, Nathaniel Mackey, Robert Murphy, Amanda Nadelberg, Peter O'Leary, Kristin Prevallet, Donald Revell, Mark Scroggins, Jakob Stein, Nathan Swartzendruber, Henry Weinfield, and Tyrone Williams. Check out the first issue here (works best with Firefox): =20 http://marshhawkreview.blogspot.com/ =20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:36:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Firestone Subject: Letters To Poets NY Reading/Party Friday, October 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're invited to celebrate the publication of the book Letters to = Poets: Conversations about Poetics, Politics and Community on Friday, = October 24 from 5:30-7:30. The event will be at Wollman Hall in the = Eugene Lang Building at 65 West 11th Street, 5th Floor (enter at 66 West = 12th Street).=20 Participating poets include: Eileen Myles, Anselm Berrigan, Joan = Retallack, Jill Magi, Rosamond King, Brenda Coultas, Brenda Iijima, = Traci Gourdine, Karen Weiser, and Cecilia Vicuna. A Q & A will follow = the reading and there will be a special guest appearance from "The = Poetry Doctor" who will be diagnosing and writing prescriptions for all = your poetic ills. Refreshments will be served! See ya there, Jennifer =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:39:49 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On the last statement, I don't think so. They are creating programs that can do what is easy. Creating a program that can create sentences that are grammatical, logical, and have sound-rhythms, whether it be iambic or rhymes, and structural rhythms is practically impossible for a computer to do at the present time. What computers can do is throw labeled words together into simple grammatical trees to create something that sounds like "experimental" poetry. If people could write an actual sonnet-writing program, they'd have done so. Many of the people I know who are into using computers for this sort of thing would certainly love to be able to do it. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Elizabeth Switaj To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:38:39 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective effects. Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. Elizabeth Kate Switaj elizabethkateswitaj.net On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" poetry, > then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. > > Troy Camplin > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:42:20 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree with the no more bailouts. The problems in Michigan come form the high taxes, restrictive regulations, etc. Michigan is very hard hit by its anti-market state government. But, if the government doesn't intervene, we won't get an implosion. QUite the contrary. If the federal government had told Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and AIG they were on their own, this who financial mess would have been over in that first week. The more they have tried to nationalize things, whether totally or partially, the worse things have gotten. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: angela vasquez-giroux To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:09:02 PM Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math "See if yr theories don't meet with some suspicion on the streets of Michigan." I live in Michigan, in Lansing, to be specific, where the median income is somewhere around poverty level. No one I know has seen any type of trickle-down help, myself included. Freeing up the market won't help until the government stops intervening. If this country is to have a truly free, capitalist market, then no more bailouts, for anything. No government intervention in the market. I give it less than a decade to implode. On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:35 PM, jared schickling wrote: > dear Troy, > > "Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of > mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic > circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people can > differ greatly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people do > not shut themselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions > with reasonable people." > > I've heard you say "facts" over and over. But I actually haven't seen any. > Could you please list some in support of your claims? For example, saying > the US isn't the biggest polluter on this planet, the one called Earth, is a > claim. Saying a free market is our salvation is a claim. > > The problem with freeing up the market is when you add advanced > technologies to such human inevitabilities as lust and greed, the result is > precisely the opposite of a free market. A free market works for the Maasai > or the Tanala because possessing a rudimentary technology means the earth > acts as a check on how much power, in the form of capital, one can acquire. > But here that ain't the case. If you provide folks with the means to > acquire and consolidate in the hands of a few ever greater amounts of wealth > and power, you can be damn sure it will happen. Thus in part the necessity > of "governance." > > Now, I can anticipate your objection, as it's already appeared in the > discussion, that all the rich folks let that wealth trickle down to all the > poor and middling folks. But cultivating a situation where MOST folks spend > 50, 60, 70 hours a week at the factory or bakery or hospital or pizza shop > or walmart without receiving adequate healthcare or retirement insurance or > vacation time and all the while struggling just to keep the house or pay the > rent or pay for the kids while the income gap between them and yr average > CEO is at historic highs, and keeps widening, and where their companies keep > posting record profits, don't sound like a fair or responsible distribution > of wealth. It certainly don't sound like yr trickle-down-doohickey is worth > the paper it's written on. See if yr theories don't meet with some > suspicion on the streets of Michigan. > > But most importantly, one must recognize that affluence don't equate with > health. Fact: according to clinical definitions: Psychologically we're the > sickest population on the planet. Fact: according to stats: Physically > we're the most violent. Hence my problem with fetishizing the marketplace. > Fact: according to annual figures: We're the biggest polluter on the > planet. (yes, I've been to your so-called "third world," more than > once--yes, the streets are dirtier--yes, looking out my window--ah the > spectacle!)(i also noted along those dirtier streets friendlier and livelier > faces and demeanors, if the preponderance of smiles and willingness to talk > and laugh are any kind of index, compared to any Amerikan city or town I've > been to) > > And if I may, you might avoid being labeled "incendiary" if you erase such > blanket condemnations as "green" and "left" from your mind. Unless of > course you can define your terms a little more precisely. Remember your own > claim to logic and rationale. > > Jared Schickling > > p.s. i hope this conversation ends soon. it grows boring. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:48:50 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Show me a sonnet written by an algorithm. I want to see it. Does it have the complexity of meaning found in a Shakespearean sonnet? Or a Petrarchan? Or one by any of the romantic poets? Does it have the proper development of a sonnet of thesis, antithesis, synthesis? Algorithms are "mere" because they are math, the simplest form of knowledge on earth. They are typically linear (unless neural nets) and thus can only create simple things. I'm not saying that computers won't some day be able to create a sonnet, but they are nowhere near complex enough to create one with the kind of complexity a human can create yet. If you can, though, prove me wrong. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Alan Sondheim To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:36:50 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" > poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. > > Troy Camplin > Yes, it can write a sonnet. Why are algorithms "mere"? Have you ever written one? In fact algorithms or machines or organisms can produce boring or interesting writing, whatever, which increasingly has very little to do with the source of the production but more with the wonder and delight of the reader. - Alan ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:23:12 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable & further>>> more, I came across this brief impression today, by William Br= onk, from "The Cage of Age,"=0A=A0=0AMEGA-META-=0A=A0=0AAll our realities a= re virtual.=0AWe feel it all in all ways. It's as though=0Ait were and the = were a we. When we turn it off,=0Awe don't feel anything-as though we weren= 't=0Abut are, as though it is. A beyond. =A0=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mess= age ----=0AFrom: Alan Sondheim =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.= BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:36:50 PM=0ASubject: Re: Fw= d: Generation game? (was fake antho)=0A=0AOn Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin= wrote:=0A=0A> When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can = it write a =0A> sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "expe= rimental" =0A> poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing anything that i= nteresting.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A=0AYes, it can write a sonnet.=0AWhy= are algorithms "mere"? Have you ever written one?=0AIn fact algorithms or = machines or organisms can produce boring or =0Ainteresting writing, whateve= r, which increasingly has very little to do =0Awith the source of the produ= ction but more with the wonder and delight of =0Athe reader.=0A- Alan=0A=0A= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not acce= pt all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poe= tics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:27:02 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Reminder: Major reading this Friday in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JACK KEROUAC'S MANUSCRIPT SCROLL and THE INTERSECTIONS OF EXPERIMENTAL POETRY AND ARTISTS' BOOKS October 3 - November 30, 2008 OPENING RECEPTION: Friday, October 3, 5:30 – 7:30PM GALLERY HOURS: M – F 12 – 7; SA + SU 12 – 5 To celebrate the opening of the exhibit and special issue of the Journal of Artists’ Books on “Intersections of Experimental Literature and Artists’ Books,” readings by poets based in the greater Chicago area and whose works exemplify contemporary experimental poetic practice in the tradition fostered by the small press and artists’ books. Friday, October 17th, 2008, 6:30 pm Judith Goldman Roberto Harrison Simone Muench Tim Yu Judith Goldman is the author Deathstar/Ricochet (2006) and Vocoder (2001). With Leslie Scalapino, she edits the series of anthologies War and Peace. She teaches at the University of Chicago. Roberto Harrison’s most recent books include Os (subpress, 2006), Counter Daemons (Litmus, 2006) and Elemental Song (Answer Tag Home Press, 2006). He edits Crayon with Andrew Levy and the Bronze Skull Press chapbook series. He lives in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where he hosts the Enemy Rumor reading series. Simone Muench’s last book Lampblack & Ash (2005) received the Kathryn A. Morton Prize for Poetry. She is an editor for Sharkforum, serves on the advisory board for Switchback Books, and was recently named one of New City’s “Lit 50: Who Really Books in Chicago.” Tim Yu is the author of Journey to the West, which won the 2006 Vincent Chin Memorial Chapbook Prize from Kundiman and appeared in Barrow Street. An assistant professor of English at the University of Toronto, his critical book, Race and the Avant-Garde: Experimental and Asian American Poetry since 1965, is forthcoming from Stanford University Press in 2009. THE COLUMBIA COLLEGE CHICAGO CENTER FOR BOOK AND PAPER ARTS 1104 South Wabash Ave., 2nd floor Chicago, Illinois, 60605-2328 Telephone: 312-369-6630 fax: 312-369-8082 www.bookandpaper.org E-mail: book&paper@colum.edu ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:27:23 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #23: How to Hear a Sentence Featuring: Ira S. Murfin Marisa Plumb Srikanth Reddy SATURDAY, OCTOBER 18th 7pm at the Division Street Dance Loft 735 W. Division, 3rd floor -- Chicago, IL new location in the Work House building Division @ Halsted, enter parking lot off of Halsted http://www.rtgdance.com/teach_schedule.htm suggested donation $4 doors lock at 7:30pm IRA S. MURFIN is a writer and theatre maker. His work has appeared in elimae, Fiction at Work, Lark(!), Mobius, and the book The Mind Garden. It has also frequently been spoken aloud in crowded rooms. Ira is Co-artistic Director of the Laboratory for Enthusiastic Collaboration and a founding member of the Laboratory for the Development of Substitute Materials, two theatre collectives. He attended the Dramatic Writing Program at New York University's Tisch School of the Arts and will soon complete an MFA in Writing from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. MARISA PLUMB is a writer and sometimes a programmer. Her work is currently centered on designing interactive environments that use figurative language as a basis for structuring and representing data. She is developing several ongoing projects that are informed by methodologies in knowledge engineering, natural language processing, and socioeconomics. These projects manifest as performances, fictional works, and computer programs, and have been shared at a handful of Chicago venues in the last two years. In her spare time, she is also working on a never-ending story. Marisa grew up in Michigan. She did her undergraduate work in Literature at Brown University, and her graduate work in Writing at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. SRIKANTH REDDY's first collection of poetry, Facts for Visitors, received the 2004 Asian American Literary Award for Poetry. His work has been published in various journals, including APR, The Canary, Fence, jubilat, and A Public Space. A graduate of the Iowa Writers' Workshop and the doctoral program in English literature at Harvard University, Reddy currently teaches creative writing and literature at the University of Chicago. Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} is curated by Lisa Janssen and Jennifer Karmin. Each event is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and performers. The series was founded in 2005 by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries NEXT MONTH: 7pm Saturday, November 1st Experiment #24: Words of War, the Politics of Truth Featuring: Mike Applegate, Marc Falkoff, Peter Sullivan & members of Iraq Veterans Against the War ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:34:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barrett Watten Subject: Regions of Practice: Kristin Prevallet and Catherine Taylor in Detroit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed REGIONS OF PRACTICE: POETICS ACROSS LANGUAGES Kristin Prevallet (Brooklyn, N.Y.) on investigative poetics and francophone African poet Sony Labou Tansi & Catherine Taylor (Ithaca College) on the research and writing of Cape Town Journals and new forms of the essay Informal reading and discussion, Thursday October 16, 4 PM (note time change) English Department Conference Room, 10302 5057 Woodward Avenue Wayne State University, Detroit Kristin Prevallet was educated at SUNY Buffalo in poetics and took a sharp left turn toward documentary, public, and transnational concerns. She is a poet, translator, and teacher whose most recent books are I, Afterlife: Essay in Mourning Time (Essay Press, 2007) and Shadow, Evidence, Intelligence (Factory School, 2006). She introduced and edited A Helen Adam Reader (National Poetry Foundation, 2007). Recent essays and reviews appear in The Chicago Review, Contemporary Poetry Review, Jacket, and Janus Head. Her manifesto "Relational Investigative Poetics" can be found at: http://fence.fenceportal.org/v6n1/text/prevallet.html, and her home page is: http://www.kayvallet.com. Catherine Taylor attended Cornell and Oxford and received her Ph.D. in English from Duke. She is an essayist and publisher, with substantial media background in educational film and TV (her work on "The Exiles" won an Emmy award and she was a co-founder and producer of the Human Rights Watch Film Festival), and currently teaches Creative Nonfiction at Ithaca College. She is publisher of Essay Press, which features innovative new genre writing, and the recent editor of the highly praised journal /nor (New Ohio Review). Her essays, poetry, and reviews have appeared or are forthcoming in Typo, Xantippe, Postmodern Culture, Quarter After Eight, Nightsun, and the Colorado Review. She is at work on a hybrid genre book about South Africa and a scholarly book about twentieth-century documentary representations of political violence entitled Documents of Despair. **** Supported by the Humanities Center, Wayne State University. Free and open to the public. Contact: Barrett Watten at 313-577-3067. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:41:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: maxpaul@SFSU.EDU Subject: FW: Two H=?utf-8?Q?=C3=B6lderlinEvents?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_5i3o33wfe8w0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message is in MIME format. --=_5i3o33wfe8w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please join us at two book events to celebrate the publication of Selected Poems of Friedrich H=C3=B6lderlin Omnidawn Publishing, 2008 496 pp. paperback edited and translated by Maxine Chernoff and Paul Hoover ________ Moe's Books 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley Tuesday, October 21, 7:30 p.m. also featuring new Omnidawn books by Lyn Hejinian, Hank Lazer, and Tyrone Williams Lone Mountain Readings University of San Francisco Xavier Hall/Fromm Hall Main Campus, 2130 Fulton Street, SF Wednesday, October 29, 7:30 p.m. 7:30 p.m. Both events are free. Hope to see you there. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --=_5i3o33wfe8w0 Received: from iron3.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.128]) by smtp01.sfsu.edu (Lotus Domino Release 7.0.3HF378) with ESMTP id 2008101220361935-39918 ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:36:19 -0700 Received: from diana.sfsu.edu ([130.212.10.239]) by iron3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 12 Oct 2008 20:36:19 -0700 Received: from mailgw1.sfsu.edu (mailgw1.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.31]) by diana.sfsu.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m9D3aIVA3449334 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:36:19 -0700 Received: from iron3.sfsu.edu (iron3.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.128]) by mailgw1.sfsu.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id m9D3a9Fr000370 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:36:09 -0700 Received: from bay0-omc2-s13.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.149]) by irongw3.sfsu.edu with ESMTP; 12 Oct 2008 20:36:09 -0700 Received: from BAY141-W52 ([65.55.152.87]) by bay0-omc2-s13.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:36:08 -0700 Message-ID: From: Maxine Chernoff To: Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?FW:_Two_H=F6lderlin_Events?= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:36:08 -0700 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_65b22158-a11c-418d-9fca-a6748f514795_" X-Inbound-SFSU: True Authentication-Results: irongw3.sfsu.edu; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-onepass: IPPSC X-Return-Path-SFSU: False X-From-SFSU: False X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvEBAJtZ8khBNvaVmWdsb2JhbACCRi2DbINsiRABAQEBAQgLCAkRA50IgSqEK3+BbIEtgXk X-Originating-IP: [76.103.31.98] Importance: Normal References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2008 03:36:08.0989 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4B9ECD0:01C92CE4] X-SFSU-VirusScanner: Found to be clean X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on SMTP01/SERVERS/SFSU(Release 7.0.3HF378 | February 28, 2008) at 10/12/2008 20:36:19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: maxinechernoff@hotmail.comCC: maxinechernoff@hotmail.comSubject: FW: T= wo H=F6lderlin EventsDate: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:35:10 -0700 Dear Students: Please join us at two book events to celebrate the publication of=20 Selected Poems of Friedrich H=F6lderlin Omnidawn Publishing, 2008 496 pp. paperback edited and translated by Maxine Chernoff and Paul Hoover ________ =20 Moe's Books 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley Tuesday, October 21, 7:30 p.m. also featuring new Omnidawn books by Lyn Hejinian,=20 Hank Lazer, and Tyrone Williams =20 =20 Lone Mountain Readings University of San Francisco Xavier Hall/Fromm Hall Main Campus, 2130 Fulton Street, SF Wednesday, October 29, 7:30 p.m. 7:30 p.m. =20 =20 Both events are free. Hope to see you there. See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home, work, or on the = go. See Now=20 _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!55= 0F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --=_5i3o33wfe8w0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:13:00 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Fwd: Call for Poetry Comments: To: wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: "Intern 1 @ Agenda" =0ATo: Intern1@agenda.org.za=0ASent: Monday, October 13, 2= 008 9:57:46 AM=0ASubject: =0A=0A =0ACALL FOR POETRY: AGENDA =96 Community M= edia=0A =0APoems will be considered for publication in Agenda, which will = be published in the middle of December 2008.=0A =0APoetry can be but does n= ot have to be on the theme of Community Media =0ALength of contributions: P= oems have to fit a full page of Agenda (slightly bigger than A5)=0A =0ASubm= ission deadline: 27 0ctober 2008=0A =0ASubmission requirements:=0A- All su= bmissions must be emailed to Intern1@agenda.org.za.=0A- All submitted poems= must come with a short bio and contact details of the author.=0A- If you w= ould like to publish anonymously please state so clearly in yoursubmission.= =0A =0APlease feel free to forward this poetry call to anyone you think mig= ht be interested=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 05:11:48 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Jerome Rothenberg and Brooklyn Copeland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out sterling new work from Jerome Rothenberg and Brooklyn Copeland on= PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Books! "When You Bit..." http://www.lulu.com/content/3100247 "Opera Bufa" http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 =A0 =A0=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:35:33 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << One of the reasons I want to take my time carefully replying on this thread is that the literary hoax is directly aimed at many of the reasons this list devolved into obsessive postings about computers, identity, and experimentation, and also about identity and hoaxes and writing and then became a mostly announcements list. >> The bottom line is the entire damn thing is *trivial. It says little about identity and less about post-modernism. Guy Debord would boke into his cravat, if he were still alive. :-((( R. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:47:42 +0100 Reply-To: Robin Hamilton Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Guy Debord would boke into his cravat, if he were still alive. There's a slight degree of interest here insofar as this turns on computer-generated texts -- but insofar as it intersects with (as has been suggested) dadaist phenomena or Situationist manifestations ... ... jeezuz, jimmy, geeuz a break ... R. {Who published in a magazine in the sixties with the resonant banner of: "The revolution will come when the last bourgoisie is hung from a lamp-post from the guts of the last capitalist." Willie Maxton.} ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Siegell Subject: THURSDAY in PHILLY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" PAUL SIEGELL & ERNEST HILBERT=20 Thurs, Oct 16th, 7pm @ Head House Books 619 South 2nd St, Philadelphia, PA 19147=20 (((Whooo's got our audience?))) Poemergency Room strolls through Rittenhouse Square, rocks out at the TLA= & Electric Factory, starts the wave at a Phillies game, and gives respect t= o break dancers at the annual Odunde festival in Philadelphia. A "curiosity= dynamo," it explores the ways that words - in sight & sound - can the= mselves be thrilled when placed into a poem. Paul Siegell is the author of Poemergency Room (Otoliths Books, 2008) and= the "parking lot attendant" over at paulsiegell.blogspot.com. Inquirer copywriter and staff editor at Painted Bride Quarterly, Paul has contribu= ted to The American Poetry Review, 5AM, MiPO, BlazeVOX, Coconut and other fin= e journals, and has also been featured in Paste Magazine and the Philadelph= ia City Paper. Opening for Siegell is E-Verse Radio Host Ernest Hilbert. Hilbert is the editor of the Contemporary Poetry Review. His collection Sixty Sonnets wi= ll be issued by Red Hen Press in autumn 2008. enjoy the week ahead, paul> http://paulsiegell.blogspot.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:03:10 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My earlier impression would have been that the impetus behind the project w= as not necessarily misanthropic but possibly just playful. (And of course i= t is the work of two people; they may have different agenda.) But as I cons= ider it more, however, I'd agree that there is a strong component of misant= hropy involved. But implied in what you write here is that to ascribe misan= thropy to a literary work is in itself a negative. I don't think that can b= e right. Although I myself am not at all misanthropic (I don't think), I ca= n't deny that there is much just cause for misanthropy in the world. And mi= santhropy has been a motiviating factor in much great literature--Celine, B= ernhard, and Swift are just thee first to come to mind.=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Or= iginal Message ----=0AFrom: Catherine Daly =0ATo: POE= TICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Saturday, 11 October, 2008 10:28:53 PM=0A= Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation= =0A=0AOne of the reasons I want to take my time carefully replying on this = thread=0Ais that the literary hoax is directly aimed at many of the reasons= this list=0Adevolved into obsessive postings about computers, identity, an= d=0Aexperimentation, and also about identity and hoaxes and writing and the= n=0Abecame a mostly announcements list.=0A=0A=0A=0AMany, if not most, hoaxe= s are misanthropic; this is certainly no exception.=0ASee the JACKET hoax i= ssue for more information about a few 20th century=0Apoetry hoaxes (includi= ng my article on Marjorie Seiffert, who was involved=0Ain an anti-modernism= hoax).=C2=A0 The primary genesis, for the editor, is=0Asupposedly=0A=0A=0A= =0A"One morning about a month ago, I received a message from the Poetics Li= st=0Athat began something like 'Announcing Issue 1 of Broken Caterpillar.= =0AFeaturing new poems by . . . followed by a list of 45 poets' names. I'd = seen=0Aone of them on Silliman's blogroll, but the rest were just flat name= s.=0ABarely names -- ethereal text strings. Keep in mind that I receive hun= dreds=0Aof these announcements per year."=0A=0A=0A=0AWords =E2=80=93 nouns = =E2=80=93 names =E2=80=93 no longer indicate anything to the future editor;= he=0Afeels besieged by an announcements list he has chosen to join.=C2=A0 = He doesn't=0Amanipulate text well, as the dupes in the names list indicate.= =C2=A0 Find and=0Areplace two spaces with one, alpha sort, delete dupes.=0A= =0A=0A=0AHe finds the announcements nature of the list funny, and the compl= aints of=0Athose whose names he's used =E2=80=93 or not =E2=80=93 numbingly= funny.=C2=A0 I don't think it=0Afunny, but this is the hoax's point.=C2=A0= A feeling of exclusion yields to sang=0Afroid when others feel excluded?= =C2=A0 The list ought to be dominated by divisive=0Aarguments about hoax po= etry and computers & poetry, and not about=0Aannouncements?=C2=A0 I would l= ove to find the spot in the archive pointing to=0ABroken Caterpillar.=0A=0A= =0A=0AIf it is any solace at all, Bob Cobbing is probably on the list becau= se=0Athere were so many tribute sections in 'zines after he died.=0A=0A=0A= =0AAs I've mentioned, I am concerned with my name being associated with wha= t I=0Adid not write, not because I wish to protect my literary reputation o= r=0Aidentity (I am far too online not to have my identity stolen with great= =0Aregularity), but because this is a poorly-designed and executed literary= =0Aproject of misanthropic intent I do not share (I am made a target, in fa= ct)=0Aand it is repeatable.=C2=A0 Names of (mostly) artists have been assoc= iated with=0Athings they did not make.=C2=A0 The anthology demonstrates mal= ign results can=0Aspring from a fairly benign idiocy.=C2=A0 "The seal is br= oken," as my college=0Afriend Keith McCabe would say.=0A=0A=0AThe second po= st could be about Carpenter, but it could also be about Ray=0ABiachi's grea= t book I just published that uses, oh, you know, Mein Kampf and=0Asome fair= ly simple web-based cutup engines as starting points to individual=0Apieces= .=C2=A0 He wrote it; Waltraud Haas did some great drawings to complete the= =0Acollaboration.=0A=0AI hope to try to enter some of my thinking into the = discussion, because=0Awhile I have long been interested and involved in com= puters and poetry, I=0Areally don't follow the beaten path.=C2=A0 Jim Carpe= nter's work is I=0Afeel misapplied / poorly designed in this hoax.=0A=0A=0A= =0ABut just because copyright is waived and/or fair use / creative commons = use=0Ais encouraged doesn't mean Carpenter didn't write the code, btw.=0A= =0A-- =0AAll best,=0ACatherine Daly=0Ac.a.b.daly@gmail.com=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all po= sts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:13:07 -0600 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from ntamo: LOCAL COLOUR by derek beaulieu Comments: To: "Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@invalid.domain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable new from ntamo: LOCAL COLOUR by derek beaulieu http://ntamo.blogspot.com/2008/10/derek-beaulieu-local-colour.html Local Colour is a full colour page-by-page interpretation of Paul = Auster's novella Ghosts. Ghosts concerns itself with Blue, a private = detective hired by a mysterious character named White to transcribe the = actions of Black, a denizen of Brooklyn Heights. As Blue reports his = findings, the reader becomes more aware of the intricate relationship = between Black and White, and a tactile awareness of colour spreads = through the narrative. With Local Colour, Canadian conceptual novelist and visual artist derek = beaulieu has removed the entirety of Auster's text, leaving only = chromatic words-proper nouns or not-spread across the page as dollops of = paint on a palette.=20 The colours, through repetition, build a suspense and crescendo which is = loosened from traditional narrative into a more pointillist = construction. derek beaulieu is the author of chains (2008), fractal economies (2006), = with wax (2003) and co-author, with Gary Barwin, of frogments from the = frag pool: haiku after basho (2005). His conceptual novel flatland: a = romance of many dimensions was published in 2007. beaulieu's writing is a record of reading, a trace of absence. A writing = without writing. Local Color: 8.5" x 11", 80 pages, full colour ISBN 978-952-215-049-3, = cover art by derek beaulieu.=20 available for order at=20 http://ntamo.blogspot.com/2008/10/derek-beaulieu-local-colour.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andrew Zawacki Subject: Bernadette Mayer in Athens, GA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bernadette Mayer will read from her poetry on Tuesday, October 21, = at 7:30 p.m. at Cin=E9 (234 W. Hancock in downtown Athens, GA). In ad= dition, you are cordially invited to a book discussion with her on = Wednesday, October 22, from 11:00 a.m. to noon, in the Park Hall library= . This = will not be a formal lecture but rather a public graduate class, in whic= h we'll be = talking specifically about *Midwinter Day*. Called "a consummate poet= " by Robert Creeley and "magnificent" by John = Ashbery, BERNADETTE MAYER is one of America's foremost experimental poet= s. = She has published over two dozen books of poetry, fiction, and collabora= tions, = including Midwinter Day (1982), A Bernadette Mayer Reader (1992), Two Ha= loed = Mourners (2000), and Scarlet Tanager (2005). Her latest volume, Poetry = State = Forest, is due this fall from New Directions. An editor and former dire= ctor of the = St. Mark's Poetry Project, Mayer has received grants and awards from the= PEN = American Center, The Foundation for Contemporary Performance Art, the NE= A, = The Academy of American Poets, and The American Academy of Arts and = Letters. Sponsored by the Creative Writing Program and the Department= of English at = the University of Georgia, the events are free and open to the public. = For = questions, please contact Andrew Zawacki at zawacki@uga.edu Andrew = Zawacki Department of English/ VERSE University of Georgia Athens, Ge= orgia 30602 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:10:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Advertise in Boog City's 52nd Issue Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward ----------------------- Advertise in Boog City 52 *Deadlines --Space Reservations-Email to reserve ad space ASAP --Sat. Oct. 18-Ad or ad copy to editor --Wed. Oct. 22-Issue to be distributed We have 2,250 copies distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to $40. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads. Ask for full rate card.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG (2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:46:47 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <497816.52301.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > If people could write an actual sonnet-writing program, they'd have done > so. Many of the people I know who are into using computers for this sort of > thing would certainly love to be able to do it. > > Troy Camplin Names please. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <595413.1667.qm@web46213.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline How can you prove any of this? Can you prove that nationalization causes a worsening? When business is privatized and "deregulated", how is there any accountability? Are we relying on the good thoughts of entrepreneurs and the joyous gut feelings of investors? On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > I agree with the no more bailouts. The problems in Michigan come form the > high taxes, restrictive regulations, etc. Michigan is very hard hit by its > anti-market state government. But, if the government doesn't intervene, we > won't get an implosion. QUite the contrary. If the federal government had > told Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and AIG they were on their own, this who > financial mess would have been over in that first week. The more they have > tried to nationalize things, whether totally or partially, the worse things > have gotten. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: angela vasquez-giroux > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:09:02 PM > Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > > "See if yr theories don't meet with some suspicion on the streets of > Michigan." > > I live in Michigan, in Lansing, to be specific, where the median income is > somewhere around poverty level. No one I know has seen any type of > trickle-down help, myself included. > > Freeing up the market won't help until the government stops intervening. If > this country is to have a truly free, capitalist market, then no more > bailouts, for anything. No government intervention in the market. I give it > less than a decade to implode. > > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:35 PM, jared schickling > wrote: > > > dear Troy, > > > > "Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of > > mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic > > circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people > can > > differ greatly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people > do > > not shut themselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions > > with reasonable people." > > > > I've heard you say "facts" over and over. But I actually haven't seen > any. > > Could you please list some in support of your claims? For example, > saying > > the US isn't the biggest polluter on this planet, the one called Earth, > is a > > claim. Saying a free market is our salvation is a claim. > > > > The problem with freeing up the market is when you add advanced > > technologies to such human inevitabilities as lust and greed, the result > is > > precisely the opposite of a free market. A free market works for the > Maasai > > or the Tanala because possessing a rudimentary technology means the earth > > acts as a check on how much power, in the form of capital, one can > acquire. > > But here that ain't the case. If you provide folks with the means to > > acquire and consolidate in the hands of a few ever greater amounts of > wealth > > and power, you can be damn sure it will happen. Thus in part the > necessity > > of "governance." > > > > Now, I can anticipate your objection, as it's already appeared in the > > discussion, that all the rich folks let that wealth trickle down to all > the > > poor and middling folks. But cultivating a situation where MOST folks > spend > > 50, 60, 70 hours a week at the factory or bakery or hospital or pizza > shop > > or walmart without receiving adequate healthcare or retirement insurance > or > > vacation time and all the while struggling just to keep the house or pay > the > > rent or pay for the kids while the income gap between them and yr average > > CEO is at historic highs, and keeps widening, and where their companies > keep > > posting record profits, don't sound like a fair or responsible > distribution > > of wealth. It certainly don't sound like yr trickle-down-doohickey is > worth > > the paper it's written on. See if yr theories don't meet with some > > suspicion on the streets of Michigan. > > > > But most importantly, one must recognize that affluence don't equate with > > health. Fact: according to clinical definitions: Psychologically we're > the > > sickest population on the planet. Fact: according to stats: Physically > > we're the most violent. Hence my problem with fetishizing the > marketplace. > > Fact: according to annual figures: We're the biggest polluter on the > > planet. (yes, I've been to your so-called "third world," more than > > once--yes, the streets are dirtier--yes, looking out my window--ah the > > spectacle!)(i also noted along those dirtier streets friendlier and > livelier > > faces and demeanors, if the preponderance of smiles and willingness to > talk > > and laugh are any kind of index, compared to any Amerikan city or town > I've > > been to) > > > > And if I may, you might avoid being labeled "incendiary" if you erase > such > > blanket condemnations as "green" and "left" from your mind. Unless of > > course you can define your terms a little more precisely. Remember your > own > > claim to logic and rationale. > > > > Jared Schickling > > > > p.s. i hope this conversation ends soon. it grows boring. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > < > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns%21550F681DAD532637%215295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:42:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <497816.52301.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Troy, Wasn't this same quip used in your attack on younger poets not being as talented? "Show me their complexity," you bellowed. That this "show me the complexity" continues to come up baffles me... On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > On the last statement, I don't think so. They are creating programs that > can do what is easy. Creating a program that can create sentences that are > grammatical, logical, and have sound-rhythms, whether it be iambic or > rhymes, and structural rhythms is practically impossible for a computer to > do at the present time. What computers can do is throw labeled words > together into simple grammatical trees to create something that sounds like > "experimental" poetry. If people could write an actual sonnet-writing > program, they'd have done so. Many of the people I know who are into using > computers for this sort of thing would certainly love to be able to do it. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Elizabeth Switaj > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:38:39 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily > analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective > effects. > Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been > horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main > difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability > for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I > checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to > whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. > > Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that > people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating > writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a > > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" > poetry, > > then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:18:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <497816.52301.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed oh man I was doing this in the 70s with assembly language on a ti59 - it's come a long way since then - alan On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > On the last statement, I don't think so. They are creating programs that can do what is easy. Creating a program that can create sentences that are grammatical, logical, and have sound-rhythms, whether it be iambic or rhymes, and structural rhythms is practically impossible for a computer to do at the present time. What computers can do is throw labeled words together into simple grammatical trees to create something that sounds like "experimental" poetry. If people could write an actual sonnet-writing program, they'd have done so. Many of the people I know who are into using computers for this sort of thing would certainly love to be able to do it. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Elizabeth Switaj > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:38:39 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily > analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective effects. > Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been > horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main > difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability > for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I > checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to > whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. > > Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that > people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating > writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a >> sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" poetry, >> then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. >> >> Troy Camplin >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:19:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <305125.73423.qm@web46205.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed - simplest form of knowledge? where does that come from? have you read much higher math? you could just as easily argue it's the most complex knowledge on earth. and algorithms need not be linear at all but that's another story - Alan On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Show me a sonnet written by an algorithm. I want to see it. Does it have the complexity of meaning found in a Shakespearean sonnet? Or a Petrarchan? Or one by any of the romantic poets? Does it have the proper development of a sonnet of thesis, antithesis, synthesis? > > Algorithms are "mere" because they are math, the simplest form of > knowledge on earth. They are typically linear (unless neural nets) and > thus can only create simple things. I'm not saying that computers won't > some day be able to create a sonnet, but they are nowhere near complex > enough to create one with the kind of complexity a human can create yet. > If you can, though, prove me wrong. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alan Sondheim > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:36:50 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a >> sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" >> poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. >> >> Troy Camplin >> > > Yes, it can write a sonnet. > Why are algorithms "mere"? Have you ever written one? > In fact algorithms or machines or organisms can produce boring or > interesting writing, whatever, which increasingly has very little to do > with the source of the production but more with the wonder and delight of > the reader. > - Alan > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:03:19 -0700 Reply-To: eric_dickey@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Dickey Subject: Finnish poetry In-Reply-To: <1D0DA40B7989F34CB6D808A509A509F0604916E323@kane.naropa.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking for audio of Pentti Saarikoski reading his poems.=A0=20 Any help would be appreciated. I found a couple of interviews, but I don't speak Finnish. Thanks, Eric =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:41:50 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Carpenter Subject: A clarification or two In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, I just wanted to weigh in a bit on some of the recent discussion about Issue 1 and maybe help to make a couple of things clear. First off, Issue 1 is not a hoax nor a prank. It is (and I think should have been immediately seen as) parody, parody as obvious as anything on The Onion. If there is anything amusing about the project, it is that so many folks did not see that. Maybe that's because it is bad parody. I'm too close to the project to be objective about that--I'll leave it for others to make that judgement. But speaking for myself, there was no intent to fool anybody, just to evoke a chuckle or two. Second, the ETC project is, and should be discussed as, separate from Issue 1. I was multiply motivated to continue the project after completing my thesis. I did not feel as if the thesis satisfactorily answered the question as to whether machine poetry could compete with traditional poetry. I had attempted to devise and implement some controlled testing, but could not for the life of me devise an adequate null hypothesis. So after some considerable time, decided that the only way to test was to actually send out the work and see what happened. It was important that in sending poems out I not identify them as machine works because that would irreparably compromise the experiment. Some editors would accept the work only because it was borne of the machine and others would reject it for the same reason. So Erica was born. And of course that kind of exercise does have at least some of the characteristics of the hoax. And I confess to some pleasure in the act. And as are most alternative artists (and I would think, just about everyone who participates in this list), I wanted to be disruptive. But there is another, to me, more important motivation, which speaks squarely to Issue 1. And that has to do with the broader community of computational artists, particularly those working with text. A problem confronting these artists is where to get text to support their work, especially since the demands of an artifact capable of processing thousands of elements per second and storing gigabytes of data require enormous amounts of it. It is physically impossible to manually write the 1000s of pages needed to support certain types of work. Further, developing excellence in the skill sets required for developing computational artifacts and literary artifacts would require double the effort it takes to become either a highly-skilled technician or highly-skilled author. My thoughts were that artificially generated texts could be used in such works. (One of the reasons I wrote the most recent version in Java was to facilitate such usage--and also why I've posted the source.) So far only Issue 1 has taken me up on that. Finally, all of this is past. I have turned to other interests, none of them computational, and at this time, have no ambitions toward furthering the project (another reason for releasing the source). If the project has value, someone else will pick it up. If not, not. BTW: There is a clear line along which Erica's poetry can be improved significantly, which does not require any programming knowledge whatsoever. Just a little Xml. If anyone is interested, I am happy to respond to questions about the software's design. Just email me directly: jcarpenter47@gmail.com Best, --jim -- jim --------------------- Jim Carpenter http://slought.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math In-Reply-To: <595413.1667.qm@web46213.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think that the failure of the US auto industry to compete effectively with Asian companies might have something to do with Michigan's plight. That inability to compete famously has a lot to do with the reative quality of the project, but also with the unfair disadvantage American companies face because of the lack of a national health care system--it simply costs Detroit and Flint a lot more to keep its workers healthy. Anyway, it's a done deal. For the next few years a lot of banks are going to be run for the most part by the feds. We'll see how it goes. Mark At 04:42 PM 10/12/2008, you wrote: >I agree with the no more bailouts. The problems in Michigan come >form the high taxes, restrictive regulations, etc. Michigan is very >hard hit by its anti-market state government. But, if the government >doesn't intervene, we won't get an implosion. QUite the contrary. If >the federal government had told Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and AIG >they were on their own, this who financial mess would have been over >in that first week. The more they have tried to nationalize things, >whether totally or partially, the worse things have gotten. > >Troy Camplin > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: angela vasquez-giroux >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:09:02 PM >Subject: Re: EXCITED for the math > >"See if yr theories don't meet with some suspicion on the streets of >Michigan." > >I live in Michigan, in Lansing, to be specific, where the median income is >somewhere around poverty level. No one I know has seen any type of >trickle-down help, myself included. > >Freeing up the market won't help until the government stops intervening. If >this country is to have a truly free, capitalist market, then no more >bailouts, for anything. No government intervention in the market. I give it >less than a decade to implode. > > >On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 12:35 PM, jared schickling >wrote: > > > dear Troy, > > > > "Only when people demonstrably ignore facts do I accuse people of > > mindlessly accepting dogma. Marxism is a secular religion and hermeneutic > > circle and, thus dogmatic. I do accept the fact that reasonable people can > > differ greatly on how they interpret the facts -- but reasonable people do > > not shut themselves off from the facts. I do enjoy reasonable discussions > > with reasonable people." > > > > I've heard you say "facts" over and over. But I actually haven't seen any. > > Could you please list some in support of your claims? For example, saying > > the US isn't the biggest polluter on this planet, the one called > Earth, is a > > claim. Saying a free market is our salvation is a claim. > > > > The problem with freeing up the market is when you add advanced > > technologies to such human inevitabilities as lust and greed, the result is > > precisely the opposite of a free market. A free market works for > the Maasai > > or the Tanala because possessing a rudimentary technology means the earth > > acts as a check on how much power, in the form of capital, one can acquire. > > But here that ain't the case. If you provide folks with the means to > > acquire and consolidate in the hands of a few ever greater > amounts of wealth > > and power, you can be damn sure it will happen. Thus in part the necessity > > of "governance." > > > > Now, I can anticipate your objection, as it's already appeared in the > > discussion, that all the rich folks let that wealth trickle down to all the > > poor and middling folks. But cultivating a situation where MOST > folks spend > > 50, 60, 70 hours a week at the factory or bakery or hospital or pizza shop > > or walmart without receiving adequate healthcare or retirement insurance or > > vacation time and all the while struggling just to keep the house > or pay the > > rent or pay for the kids while the income gap between them and yr average > > CEO is at historic highs, and keeps widening, and where their > companies keep > > posting record profits, don't sound like a fair or responsible distribution > > of wealth. It certainly don't sound like yr > trickle-down-doohickey is worth > > the paper it's written on. See if yr theories don't meet with some > > suspicion on the streets of Michigan. > > > > But most importantly, one must recognize that affluence don't equate with > > health. Fact: according to clinical definitions: Psychologically we're the > > sickest population on the planet. Fact: according to stats: Physically > > we're the most violent. Hence my problem with fetishizing the marketplace. > > Fact: according to annual figures: We're the biggest polluter on the > > planet. (yes, I've been to your so-called "third world," more than > > once--yes, the streets are dirtier--yes, looking out my window--ah the > > spectacle!)(i also noted along those dirtier streets friendlier > and livelier > > faces and demeanors, if the preponderance of smiles and willingness to talk > > and laugh are any kind of index, compared to any Amerikan city or town I've > > been to) > > > > And if I may, you might avoid being labeled "incendiary" if you erase such > > blanket condemnations as "green" and "left" from your mind. Unless of > > course you can define your terms a little more > precisely. Remember your own > > claim to logic and rationale. > > > > Jared Schickling > > > > p.s. i hope this conversation ends soon. it grows boring. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn "10 hidden secrets" from Jamie. > > > > > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:18:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Corey Frost Subject: Oct 23 prose reading KGB In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends. We invite you to join us in celebrating the publication =20= of J.R. Carpenter=92s first novel, WORDS THE DOG KNOWS (Montreal: =20 Conundrum Press) with an evening of readings from Montreal and New =20 York-area fiction writers. J.R. will be joined by New Yorker Karen =20 Russell, fellow Conundrum author Corey Frost, and Canadian New Yorker =20= Nora Maynard. KGB Bar http://kgbbar.com/calendar/ 85 East 4th Street, New York City, NY Thursday, October 23, 2008 7:00 pm - 9:00 pm (free) In J. R. Carpenter=92s long-awaited first novel, Theo and Simone set =20 about training Isaac the Wonder Dog to: sit, come, stay. Meanwhile, =20 he has fifty girlfriends to keep track of and a master plan for the =20 rearrangement of every stick in every alleyway in Mile End. He =20 introduces Theo and Simone to their neighbours. He trains them to see =20= with the immediacy of a dog=92s-eye-view. Words the Dog Knows isn't a =20= story about a dog. It's a story because of a dog. Walking though the =20 the jumbled intimacy of Montreal=92s back alleyways day after day, Theo =20= and Simone come to see their neighbourhood and each other in a =20 whole new way. http://www.conundrumpress.com/nt_carpenter.html J.R. Carpenter is a two-time winner of the CBC Quebec Short Story =20 Competition and a fellow of Yaddo, Ucross and The Vermont Studio =20 Center. Her short fiction has appeared in numerous journals and =20 anthologies and her electronic literature has been presented =20 internationally. http://luckysoap.com Karen Russell is the author of the critically acclaimed short story =20 collection, ST. LUCY=92S SCHOOL FOR GIRLS RAISED BY WOLVES (Knopf). =20 Karen=92s fiction has appeared in The New Yorker, Granta, and Zoetrope, =20= among others. She is currently at work on a novel. http://=20 www.randomhouse.com/author/results.pperl?authorid=3D70463 Corey Frost is the author of MY OWN DEVICES: AIRPORT VERSION =20 (Montreal: Conundrum Press). Corey has performed his stories at =20 Lollapalooza, The Perpetual Motion Roadshow, and at festivals around =20 the world. http://www.coreyfrost.com Nora Maynard is a winner of the Bronx Council on the Arts Chapter One =20= Competition and a fellow of the Ragdale Foundation, the Millay =20 Colony, Ucross, and Blue Mountain Center. She is a columnist for =20 Apartment Therapy Media=92s The Kitchn, and is completing her first =20 novel, BURNT HILL ROAD. http://www.noramaynard.com=20= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:59:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: A clarification or two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for that. I have=C2=A0a question in response: With ETC, were you att= empting to create poetry that would be good according to your own lights, o= r that would be acceptable according to the criteria of a certain poetry "m= arket," or both?=0AAlso, would you say something about how you defined the = literary criteria you wanted the result to fulfill?=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Origin= al Message ----=0AFrom: Jim Carpenter =0ATo: POETIC= S@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 3:41:50 PM=0ASubjec= t: A clarification or two=0A=0AHi,=0A=0AI just wanted to weigh in a bit on = some of the recent discussion about=0AIssue 1 and maybe help to make a coup= le of things clear.=0A=0AFirst off, Issue 1 is not a hoax nor a prank.=C2= =A0 It is (and I think=0Ashould have been immediately seen as) parody, paro= dy as obvious as=0Aanything on The Onion.=C2=A0 If there is anything amusin= g about the=0Aproject, it is that so many folks did not see that.=C2=A0 May= be that's=0Abecause it is bad parody.=C2=A0 I'm too close to the project to= be=0Aobjective about that--I'll leave it for others to make that judgement= .=0ABut speaking for myself, there was no intent to fool anybody, just to= =0Aevoke a chuckle or two.=0A=0ASecond, the ETC project is, and should be d= iscussed as, separate from=0AIssue 1.=C2=A0 I was multiply motivated to con= tinue the project after=0Acompleting my thesis.=C2=A0 I did not feel as if = the thesis satisfactorily=0Aanswered the question as to whether machine poe= try could compete with=0Atraditional poetry.=C2=A0 I had attempted to devis= e and implement some=0Acontrolled testing, but could not for the life of me= devise an=0Aadequate null hypothesis.=C2=A0 So after some considerable tim= e, decided=0Athat the only way to test was to actually send out the work an= d see=0Awhat happened.=C2=A0 It was important that in sending poems out I n= ot=0Aidentify them as machine works because that would irreparably=0Acompro= mise the experiment.=C2=A0 Some editors would accept the work only=0Abecaus= e it was=C2=A0 borne of the machine and others would reject it for=0Athe sa= me reason. So Erica was born.=C2=A0 And of course that kind of=0Aexercise d= oes have at least some of the characteristics of the hoax.=0AAnd I confess = to some pleasure in the act.=0A=0AAnd as are most alternative artists (and = I would think, just about=0Aeveryone who participates in this list), I want= ed to be disruptive.=0A=0ABut there is another, to me, more important motiv= ation, which speaks=0Asquarely to Issue 1.=C2=A0 And that has to do with th= e broader community of=0Acomputational artists, particularly those working = with text.=C2=A0 A=0Aproblem confronting these artists is where to get text= to support=0Atheir work, especially since the demands of an artifact capab= le of=0Aprocessing thousands of elements per second and storing gigabytes o= f=0Adata require enormous amounts of it.=C2=A0 It is physically impossible = to=0Amanually write the 1000s of pages needed to support certain types of= =0Awork.=C2=A0 Further, developing excellence in the skill sets required fo= r=0Adeveloping computational artifacts and literary artifacts would=0Arequi= re double the effort it takes to become either a=0Ahighly-skilled technicia= n or highly-skilled author.=C2=A0 My thoughts were=0Athat artificially gene= rated texts could be used in such works.=C2=A0 (One=0Aof the reasons I wrot= e the most recent version in Java was to=0Afacilitate such usage--and also = why I've posted the source.)=C2=A0 So far=0Aonly Issue 1 has taken me up on= that.=0A=0AFinally, all of this is past.=C2=A0 I have turned to other inte= rests, none=0Aof them computational, and at this time, have no ambitions to= ward=0Afurthering the project (another reason for releasing the source).=C2= =A0 If=0Athe project has value, someone else will pick it up.=C2=A0 If not,= not.=0ABTW:=C2=A0 There is a clear line along which Erica's poetry can be = improved=0Asignificantly, which does not require any programming knowledge= =0Awhatsoever.=C2=A0 Just a little Xml.=0A=0AIf anyone is interested, I am = happy to respond to questions about the=0Asoftware's design.=C2=A0 Just ema= il me directly: jcarpenter47@gmail.com=0A=0ABest,=0A--jim=0A=0A=0A=0A-- =0A= jim=0A---------------------=0AJim Carpenter=0Ahttp://slought.org/=0A=0A=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept = all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetic= s/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:49:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pierre Joris Subject: New posts on NOMADICS blog Comments: To: Britis-Irish List Comments: cc: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Check out these recent posts on Nomadics: Erich Auerbach Letter on Turkey Dom P=E9rignon, anyone? The Alice Notley Constellation Turkey's poisoned pens And a Frenchman wins it... Is US literature provincial? Alec Finlay: I know a Poem Enjoy! Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D For updates on readings, etc. check my current events page: http://albany.edu/~joris/CurrentEvents.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:58:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 10.13.08-10.19.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII LITERARY BUFFALO 10.13.08-10.19.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 10.15.08 Earth's Daughter's Gray Hair Reading Series Don Mitchell and Ruth Thompson Poetry Reading Wednesday, October 15, 7:30 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware (=40Tupper) & Poetics Plus at UB Bruce Andrews Poetry Reading Wednesday, October 15, 8:00 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, 453 Porter Ave. 10.16.08 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Kim Rosenfeld and Marie Buck Poetry Reading Thursday, October 16, 7:00 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 10.18.08 FEDERMAN=4080: A CELEBRATION Saturday, Oct. 18, morning, noon, and night, Buffalo, NY Morning: 10:30 A.M.-12:30 P.M., UB Anderson Gallery, One Martha Jackson Pla= ce. Opening reception (with coffee and accompaniments) of an exhibition of Fede= rman-inspired art works by Terri Katz-Kazimov and Harvey Breverman, & photo= graphs by Bruce Jackson. =5BThe image above is Jackson's.=5D Noon(ish): 1:00-4:30 P.M., Poetry Collection, 4th Floor Capen Hall, UB Nort= h Campus. Two sessions of presentations and discussion featuring contributors to the = forthcoming SUNY Press collection of essays, Federman at 80: From Surfictio= n to Critifiction, edited by Jeffrey DiLeo. 1:00-2:30: A Life in the Text. Dr. Larry McCaffery, Dr. Menachem Feuer, & Dr. Ted Pelton. 3:00-4:30: Laughter, History, and the Holocaust. Dr. Susan Rubin Suleiman & Dr. Marcel Cornis-Pope. & NIGHT: 8:00 P.M., Medaille College, Main Building, Foyer & Lecture Hall.= An Evening of Laughterature, Surfiction, & Playgiarism in Tribute to Raymon= d Federman Readings by (in order of appearance): Ted Pelton, Christina Milletti, Geoffrey Gatza, Julie Regan, Michael Basins= ki, & Steve McCaffery. ?Intermission? Davis Schneiderman, Charles Bernstein, Simone Federman, & Raymond Federman= The readings will be followed by a reception and 80th birthday toast. ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS? WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:33:13 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Let me ask you: what would it take to write a program that could construct grammatical sentences? I'll even go so far as to suggest not including the lists of words as part of the algorithm. How many more bits of information are required by the written program to create the sentence than are required by the sentence it produces? The arts are more more complex than the social sciences, like economics and sociology Economics and sociology are more complex than psychology Psychology is more complex than biology Biology is more complex than chemistry Chemistry is more complex than physics Physics is more complex than math, on which it is built. The more complex something is, the more complex the math needed to explain it. It has been shown that there are things in the universe that are so complex, that even if the math were developed, it would take longer to do the calculations than to just sit there and wait for it to happen. Why? Math is too simple to properly deal with it. That is why the most complex things listed either do not have the math do describe them, or only use statistics. And, yes, I know math can be nonlinear. I mentioned neural nets, though I also know there are more. There are also the kinds of time series which give rise to fractal patterns, among others. Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Alan Sondheim To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 4:19:56 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) - simplest form of knowledge? where does that come from? have you read much higher math? you could just as easily argue it's the most complex knowledge on earth. and algorithms need not be linear at all but that's another story - Alan On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > Show me a sonnet written by an algorithm. I want to see it. Does it have the complexity of meaning found in a Shakespearean sonnet? Or a Petrarchan? Or one by any of the romantic poets? Does it have the proper development of a sonnet of thesis, antithesis, synthesis? > > Algorithms are "mere" because they are math, the simplest form of > knowledge on earth. They are typically linear (unless neural nets) and > thus can only create simple things. I'm not saying that computers won't > some day be able to create a sonnet, but they are nowhere near complex > enough to create one with the kind of complexity a human can create yet. > If you can, though, prove me wrong. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Alan Sondheim > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:36:50 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a >> sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" >> poetry, then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. >> >> Troy Camplin >> > > Yes, it can write a sonnet. > Why are algorithms "mere"? Have you ever written one? > In fact algorithms or machines or organisms can produce boring or > interesting writing, whatever, which increasingly has very little to do > with the source of the production but more with the wonder and delight of > the reader. > - Alan > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 07:19:34 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's because complexity is a essential element to good art. Do not mistake complexity for complicatedness. Complicated means "knotted," meaning once you unknot the thing, you find out that what is there is one-dimensional, that it is simpler than you thought it was. Complex means "folded," meaning there are layers upon layers. As you get into the thing, you find out there is more and more there than you could have first imagined. SOmething folded has a surface you can see, of course -- meaning it has something anyone can enjoy -- but the more you get into the work, the more there is, and the more you can learn about it. If the more you read something, the less you get out of it, that work was complicated (and, I would also argue, ugly); if the more you read something, the more you get out of it, that work was complex (and, I would argue, beautiful). Troy Camplin ----- Original Message ---- From: Ryan Daley To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 3:42:44 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) Troy, Wasn't this same quip used in your attack on younger poets not being as talented? "Show me their complexity," you bellowed. That this "show me the complexity" continues to come up baffles me... On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > On the last statement, I don't think so. They are creating programs that > can do what is easy. Creating a program that can create sentences that are > grammatical, logical, and have sound-rhythms, whether it be iambic or > rhymes, and structural rhythms is practically impossible for a computer to > do at the present time. What computers can do is throw labeled words > together into simple grammatical trees to create something that sounds like > "experimental" poetry. If people could write an actual sonnet-writing > program, they'd have done so. Many of the people I know who are into using > computers for this sort of thing would certainly love to be able to do it. > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Elizabeth Switaj > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:38:39 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily > analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective > effects. > Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been > horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main > difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability > for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I > checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to > whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. > > Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that > people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating > writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > elizabethkateswitaj.net > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a > > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" > poetry, > > then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:50:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Carpenter Subject: Re: A clarification or two In-Reply-To: <9398.2559.qm@web65113.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I wanted to see if ETC could compete, so I tried to attach to that which was successful in getting itself noticed. Erica's sensibilities and mine are not the same. The literary criteria were simple: What's publishable? Here is a post I wrote a while back that I think brushes up against your question: http://theprostheticimagination.blogspot.com/2007/10/just-when-we-thought-we-were-making.html Best, -jim On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Thanks for that. I have a question in response: With ETC, were you attempting to create poetry that would be good according to your own lights, or that would be acceptable according to the criteria of a certain poetry "market," or both? > Also, would you say something about how you defined the literary criteria you wanted the result to fulfill? > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Jim Carpenter > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 3:41:50 PM > Subject: A clarification or two > > Hi, > > I just wanted to weigh in a bit on some of the recent discussion about > Issue 1 and maybe help to make a couple of things clear. > > First off, Issue 1 is not a hoax nor a prank. It is (and I think > should have been immediately seen as) parody, parody as obvious as > anything on The Onion. If there is anything amusing about the > project, it is that so many folks did not see that. Maybe that's > because it is bad parody. I'm too close to the project to be > objective about that--I'll leave it for others to make that judgement. > But speaking for myself, there was no intent to fool anybody, just to > evoke a chuckle or two. > > Second, the ETC project is, and should be discussed as, separate from > Issue 1. I was multiply motivated to continue the project after > completing my thesis. I did not feel as if the thesis satisfactorily > answered the question as to whether machine poetry could compete with > traditional poetry. I had attempted to devise and implement some > controlled testing, but could not for the life of me devise an > adequate null hypothesis. So after some considerable time, decided > that the only way to test was to actually send out the work and see > what happened. It was important that in sending poems out I not > identify them as machine works because that would irreparably > compromise the experiment. Some editors would accept the work only > because it was borne of the machine and others would reject it for > the same reason. So Erica was born. And of course that kind of > exercise does have at least some of the characteristics of the hoax. > And I confess to some pleasure in the act. > > And as are most alternative artists (and I would think, just about > everyone who participates in this list), I wanted to be disruptive. > > But there is another, to me, more important motivation, which speaks > squarely to Issue 1. And that has to do with the broader community of > computational artists, particularly those working with text. A > problem confronting these artists is where to get text to support > their work, especially since the demands of an artifact capable of > processing thousands of elements per second and storing gigabytes of > data require enormous amounts of it. It is physically impossible to > manually write the 1000s of pages needed to support certain types of > work. Further, developing excellence in the skill sets required for > developing computational artifacts and literary artifacts would > require double the effort it takes to become either a > highly-skilled technician or highly-skilled author. My thoughts were > that artificially generated texts could be used in such works. (One > of the reasons I wrote the most recent version in Java was to > facilitate such usage--and also why I've posted the source.) So far > only Issue 1 has taken me up on that. > > Finally, all of this is past. I have turned to other interests, none > of them computational, and at this time, have no ambitions toward > furthering the project (another reason for releasing the source). If > the project has value, someone else will pick it up. If not, not. > BTW: There is a clear line along which Erica's poetry can be improved > significantly, which does not require any programming knowledge > whatsoever. Just a little Xml. > > If anyone is interested, I am happy to respond to questions about the > software's design. Just email me directly: jcarpenter47@gmail.com > > Best, > --jim > > > > -- > jim > --------------------- > Jim Carpenter > http://slought.org/ > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- jim --------------------- Jim Carpenter http://slought.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:21:04 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve McLaughlin Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <729636.21171.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >Let me ask you: what would it take to write a program >that could construct grammatical sentences? There's been a lot of work done in this field, as you probably know. SmarterChild is the irritating pop culture example. But a current researcher who comes to mind in a literary context is Nick Montfort, who's done a lot of work on dynamic grammar generation for interactive fiction. That is, his software comprehensibly 'talks back' to the user, without using the madlib cut-and-paste method you'd see in a MOO or something. >I'll even go so far as to suggest not including the lists of words as part of the algorithm. This doesn't really make sense, unless you're talking about a program that goes out into the wild and automatically learns its vocabulary and grammar by crunching huge data sets. >It has been shown that there are things in the universe that >are so complex, that even if the math were developed, it would >take longer to do the calculations than to just sit there and >wait for it to happen. Yes, there are obscure cases in which flipping a coin solves a problem faster than carrying out the necessary calculations. Is this what you're talking about? But these are really esoteric cases, and definitely exceptions to the rule. Would you flip a coin repeatedly to calculate the load distribution among suspension cables in the process of building a bridge? Would you just let the bridge 'happen' by itself? Would you give the project to a team of poets? It seems to me that this sort of "math vs. poetry" conversation bears little fruit and breaks down quickly. -steve On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > It's because complexity is a essential element to good art. Do not mistake complexity for complicatedness. Complicated means "knotted," meaning once you unknot the thing, you find out that what is there is one-dimensional, that it is simpler than you thought it was. Complex means "folded," meaning there are layers upon layers. As you get into the thing, you find out there is more and more there than you could have first imagined. SOmething folded has a surface you can see, of course -- meaning it has something anyone can enjoy -- but the more you get into the work, the more there is, and the more you can learn about it. If the more you read something, the less you get out of it, that work was complicated (and, I would also argue, ugly); if the more you read something, the more you get out of it, that work was complex (and, I would argue, beautiful). > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 3:42:44 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > Troy, > > Wasn't this same quip used in your attack on younger poets not being as > talented? "Show me their complexity," you bellowed. That this "show me the > complexity" continues to come up baffles me... > > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> On the last statement, I don't think so. They are creating programs that >> can do what is easy. Creating a program that can create sentences that are >> grammatical, logical, and have sound-rhythms, whether it be iambic or >> rhymes, and structural rhythms is practically impossible for a computer to >> do at the present time. What computers can do is throw labeled words >> together into simple grammatical trees to create something that sounds like >> "experimental" poetry. If people could write an actual sonnet-writing >> program, they'd have done so. Many of the people I know who are into using >> computers for this sort of thing would certainly love to be able to do it. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Elizabeth Switaj >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:38:39 PM >> Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) >> >> Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily >> analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective >> effects. >> Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been >> horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main >> difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability >> for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I >> checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to >> whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. >> >> Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that >> people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating >> writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. >> >> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >> elizabethkateswitaj.net >> >> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin >> wrote: >> >> > When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a >> > sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" >> poetry, >> > then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. >> > >> > Troy Camplin >> > >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Stephen McLaughlin Schilperoortstraat 84 A2 3082SX Rotterdam, NL ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:52:41 -0700 Reply-To: tsavagebar@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation In-Reply-To: <984489.69997.qm@web65103.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For what it is worth, I incorporated the poem falsely attributed to me in t= he "Fake Anthology" into a poem which I consider a response to it.=A0 Altho= ugh I've posted it on Wryting-L, I thought I would add it here in the possi= bility that others may have concocted poetic responses to this massive bit = of identity theft that has been perpetrated on many of us.=A0 The poem goes= as follows: =A0=A0=A0=A0 Poem Written in Response to a Poem Attributed to Me Which I Ne= ver Wrote =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0" A gilded heart =A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The gilded hearts =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Heaven" =A0 If my heart were in Heaven, Where would my liver be? Would it be dead? Most gilded things tend to be inert. As for my name, I won't Change it to Emily Dickinson Although I heard her voice once When I was "ill." If there are any hearts Gilded or otherwise In Heaven, I hope They've remembered how to beat. =A0 Tom Savage 10/8/08=A0 --- On Mon, 10/13/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, October 13, 2008, 9:03 AM My earlier impression would have been that the impetus behind the project w= as not necessarily misanthropic but possibly just playful. (And of course it i= s the work of two people; they may have different agenda.) But as I consider it m= ore, however, I'd agree that there is a strong component of misanthropy involved= . But implied in what you write here is that to ascribe misanthropy to a lite= rary work is in itself a negative. I don't think that can be right. Although I myself am not at all misanthropic (I don't think), I can't deny that there is much just cause for misanthropy in the world. And misanthropy has = been a motiviating factor in much great literature--Celine, Bernhard, and Swift = are just thee first to come to mind. ----- Original Message ---- From: Catherine Daly To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Saturday, 11 October, 2008 10:28:53 PM Subject: Re: Generation of A Fake Anthology/Anthology of a Fake Generation One of the reasons I want to take my time carefully replying on this thread is that the literary hoax is directly aimed at many of the reasons this lis= t devolved into obsessive postings about computers, identity, and experimentation, and also about identity and hoaxes and writing and then became a mostly announcements list. Many, if not most, hoaxes are misanthropic; this is certainly no exception. See the JACKET hoax issue for more information about a few 20th century poetry hoaxes (including my article on Marjorie Seiffert, who was involved in an anti-modernism hoax).=A0 The primary genesis, for the editor, is supposedly "One morning about a month ago, I received a message from the Poetics List that began something like 'Announcing Issue 1 of Broken Caterpillar. Featuring new poems by . . . followed by a list of 45 poets' names. I'd seen one of them on Silliman's blogroll, but the rest were just flat names. Barely names -- ethereal text strings. Keep in mind that I receive hundreds of these announcements per year." Words =96 nouns =96 names =96 no longer indicate anything to the future edi= tor; he feels besieged by an announcements list he has chosen to join.=A0 He doesn'= t manipulate text well, as the dupes in the names list indicate.=A0 Find and replace two spaces with one, alpha sort, delete dupes. He finds the announcements nature of the list funny, and the complaints of those whose names he's used =96 or not =96 numbingly funny.=A0 I don't think it funny, but this is the hoax's point.=A0 A feeling of exclusion yields to sang froid when others feel excluded?=A0 The list ought to be dominated by divis= ive arguments about hoax poetry and computers & poetry, and not about announcements?=A0 I would love to find the spot in the archive pointing to Broken Caterpillar. If it is any solace at all, Bob Cobbing is probably on the list because there were so many tribute sections in 'zines after he died. As I've mentioned, I am concerned with my name being associated with what I did not write, not because I wish to protect my literary reputation or identity (I am far too online not to have my identity stolen with great regularity), but because this is a poorly-designed and executed literary project of misanthropic intent I do not share (I am made a target, in fact) and it is repeatable.=A0 Names of (mostly) artists have been associated wit= h things they did not make.=A0 The anthology demonstrates malign results can spring from a fairly benign idiocy.=A0 "The seal is broken," as my college friend Keith McCabe would say. The second post could be about Carpenter, but it could also be about Ray Biachi's great book I just published that uses, oh, you know, Mein Kampf and some fairly simple web-based cutup engines as starting points to individual pieces.=A0 He wrote it; Waltraud Haas did some great drawings to complete t= he collaboration. I hope to try to enter some of my thinking into the discussion, because while I have long been interested and involved in computers and poetry, I really don't follow the beaten path.=A0 Jim Carpenter's work is I feel misapplied / poorly designed in this hoax. But just because copyright is waived and/or fair use / creative commons use is encouraged doesn't mean Carpenter didn't write the code, btw. --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:03:11 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: Open Mic Radio tonight! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear All, I continue to host a live internet radio show on Tuesday nights from =20 8-9pm PST. I have taken calls from poets from Florida, Chicago, =20 California, Canada and other places too. I would be very happy to =20 hear from you with a poem or an announcement, or your thoughts about =20 the state of the arts. Tuesday Oct. 14, 8-9pm PST http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard/2008/10/15/LBH-Radio-=20 Hour-Oct-7 You can try the "click to talk" feature at the above url, or you can =20= call by telephone. Call-in Number: (718) 506-1481 I look forward to hearing from you tonight! Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims My guest at the top of the hour will be Edgardo Camb=F3n who will be =20 appearing with his band Candela at Yoshi's San Francisco, to =20 celebrate and record a video for the new CD "Cebrando 20 A=F1os." The =20= show is also an open mic for poets to call in with a poem. Any =20 listener may call in with an arts related announcement and thoughts =20 about the state of the arts. I will also read some announcements =20 posted at Listen & Be Heard Network Arts News and take a call from =20 the Metaphysical Music. If there's time I'll do some arts =20 editorializing but I would rather hear from you and have a conversation! Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:50:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: PRINTING POETRY: A LETTERPRESS WORKSHOP on Saturday October 18th 11AM-5PM Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit PRINTING POETRY: A LETTERPRESS WORKSHOP Saturday October 18th 11AM-5PM In this one day workshop with instructors Kyle Schlesinger and Daniel Morris, you will learn the foundations of letterpress printing: how to handle a composing stick, set type, set up the form, and operate a press with safety and efficiency. Participants will be asked to bring one original haiku or poem of a similar length and will take home a dozen hand printed cards with envelopes. No printing experience is necessary for this workshop. Hosted by The Arm in Brooklyn, New York. For more information, please visit: http://www.thearmnyc.com/information/workshops ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:08:44 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: A clarification or two In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, Congratulations. As I said in my previous previous post you had an incredible marketing strategy, see the number of people who know of your work now. And as I said in my previous post, the only thing I did not like was the following sentence: Rather, the project seeks to disrupt the Academy's mission of exclusion, its selfishness and greed, its supercilious arrogance. I do not identify with this concept and there are about 300 people that I know who do not. Then, there are about a couple of dozens whom I would set there, in their hell or arrogance, included some that you excluded (I love it, chuckles from here), devilishly, me. On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > I wanted to see if ETC could compete, so I tried to attach to that > which was successful in getting itself noticed. Erica's sensibilities > and mine are not the same. The literary criteria were simple: What's > publishable? > > Here is a post I wrote a while back that I think brushes up against > your question: > > http://theprostheticimagination.blogspot.com/2007/10/just-when-we-thought-we-were-making.html > > Best, > -jim > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 3:59 AM, Barry Schwabsky > wrote: > > Thanks for that. I have a question in response: With ETC, were you > attempting to create poetry that would be good according to your own lights, > or that would be acceptable according to the criteria of a certain poetry > "market," or both? > > Also, would you say something about how you defined the literary criteria > you wanted the result to fulfill? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Jim Carpenter > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 2008 3:41:50 PM > > Subject: A clarification or two > > > > Hi, > > > > I just wanted to weigh in a bit on some of the recent discussion about > > Issue 1 and maybe help to make a couple of things clear. > > > > First off, Issue 1 is not a hoax nor a prank. It is (and I think > > should have been immediately seen as) parody, parody as obvious as > > anything on The Onion. If there is anything amusing about the > > project, it is that so many folks did not see that. Maybe that's > > because it is bad parody. I'm too close to the project to be > > objective about that--I'll leave it for others to make that judgement. > > But speaking for myself, there was no intent to fool anybody, just to > > evoke a chuckle or two. > > > > Second, the ETC project is, and should be discussed as, separate from > > Issue 1. I was multiply motivated to continue the project after > > completing my thesis. I did not feel as if the thesis satisfactorily > > answered the question as to whether machine poetry could compete with > > traditional poetry. I had attempted to devise and implement some > > controlled testing, but could not for the life of me devise an > > adequate null hypothesis. So after some considerable time, decided > > that the only way to test was to actually send out the work and see > > what happened. It was important that in sending poems out I not > > identify them as machine works because that would irreparably > > compromise the experiment. Some editors would accept the work only > > because it was borne of the machine and others would reject it for > > the same reason. So Erica was born. And of course that kind of > > exercise does have at least some of the characteristics of the hoax. > > And I confess to some pleasure in the act. > > > > And as are most alternative artists (and I would think, just about > > everyone who participates in this list), I wanted to be disruptive. > > > > But there is another, to me, more important motivation, which speaks > > squarely to Issue 1. And that has to do with the broader community of > > computational artists, particularly those working with text. A > > problem confronting these artists is where to get text to support > > their work, especially since the demands of an artifact capable of > > processing thousands of elements per second and storing gigabytes of > > data require enormous amounts of it. It is physically impossible to > > manually write the 1000s of pages needed to support certain types of > > work. Further, developing excellence in the skill sets required for > > developing computational artifacts and literary artifacts would > > require double the effort it takes to become either a > > highly-skilled technician or highly-skilled author. My thoughts were > > that artificially generated texts could be used in such works. (One > > of the reasons I wrote the most recent version in Java was to > > facilitate such usage--and also why I've posted the source.) So far > > only Issue 1 has taken me up on that. > > > > Finally, all of this is past. I have turned to other interests, none > > of them computational, and at this time, have no ambitions toward > > furthering the project (another reason for releasing the source). If > > the project has value, someone else will pick it up. If not, not. > > BTW: There is a clear line along which Erica's poetry can be improved > > significantly, which does not require any programming knowledge > > whatsoever. Just a little Xml. > > > > If anyone is interested, I am happy to respond to questions about the > > software's design. Just email me directly: jcarpenter47@gmail.com > > > > Best, > > --jim > > > > > > > > -- > > jim > > --------------------- > > Jim Carpenter > > http://slought.org/ > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > jim > --------------------- > Jim Carpenter > http://slought.org/ > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:36:14 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: 24 Hour Contest (Lyric, Poem) Comments: cc: amy king In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Post-ironic(?) or intelligent pre-ironic (including contemporary country), lyrics sought for three separate Velvet Underground-meets- Cramps generic garagerock cliche grooves (on the cusp of oldie and antique, yet with just enough edge, what current 'industry standards' would call sloppy, code for 'sweaty'). An understanding of the "syllabics of rock" an added bonus (or having managed to get the lines "My voice is really warm, it's just that it's got no form" to go a groove that would put "The bird is the word" to shame). Deadline is October 15th, 2008. 12 Noon EDT. For more info, write Chris.Stroffolino@gmail.com On Oct 14, 2008, at 12:12 PM, amy k wrote: > Just send your email to this address: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Chris Stroffolino > wrote: > i dont know how to do that yet.... > > On Oct 14, 2008, at 7:39 AM, amy k wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> Would you mind re-posting your email to the list without the list >> digest attached? >> >> Thanks, & be well, >> >> Amy >> >> -- >> >> Recent work >> http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html >> >> Amy's Alias >> http://amyking.org/ > > > > > -- > > Recent work > http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html > > Amy's Alias > http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:36:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "******************=". Rest of header flushed. From: steve russell Subject: has lived in hiding with 24-hour police protection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe Saviano should hook up with Rushdie in Britian. =0A******************= *********************************************************=0ARoberto Saviano= , 29, has lived in hiding with 24-hour police protection for the past two y= ears since the "Camorra," as the mob in his hometown is known, decided to p= unish him for the huge success of his book, which is based on his own inves= tigations.=0A=A0=0AIt has sold 1.2 million copies in Italy and been transla= ted into 42 languages. Now that it has hit the big screen and is a candidat= e for the Oscars, the mafia is even angrier and wants Saviano and his bodyg= uards killed as soon as possible.=0A=A0=0A"We've launched in inquiry to ver= ify the truth behind this news," Franco Roberto, a coordinator of the local= anti-mafia squad for Naples, told Reuters.=0A=A0=0AItalian papers said the= Naples mob's notorious Casalesi clan -- in the news recently over the murd= er of six Africans, which sparked riots by other immigrants -- had moved th= e threat into the "operative" phase and wanted Saviano dead by Christmas.= =0A=A0=0AThe source of the tip-off was a "supergrass" related to the jailed= Camorra godfather Francesco Schiavone, aka "Sandokan."=0A=A0=0AThe Camorra= has its finger in every pie in Naples and the surrounding areas, from the = protection racket to drugs and even waste disposal, as Saviano's book docum= ents in great detail.=0A=A0=0AWith his shaved head, dark close-cropped bear= d, piercing eyes and black T-shirt, Saviano has become a symbol of the figh= t against organized crime for a new generation of Italians.=0A=A0=0AHe mark= ed two years living under escort on Monday, telling a radio show of his rel= ationship with the policemen who have been his only company since he was fo= rced to leave his home.=0A=A0=0A"Many days are terrible," said Saviano, who= spends some of his time boxing with escorts "who sometimes call me 'captai= n.'"=0A=A0=0AThe writer said it was the millions of people who had bought t= he book who really worried the mafia.=0A"It's the readers who have frighten= ed the crime bosses, not me," said Saviano.=0A=A0=0ASome politicians urged = the Italian public to show their solidarity with the writer.=0A"Nobody must= touch Saviano!" said the former cabinet minister Giovanna Melandri, denoun= cing the Camorra as "one of the main cancers blighting our country."=0A(Wri= ting by Stephen Brown; Additional reporting by Roberto Bonzio in Mila, edit= ing by Paul Casciaton)=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:55:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: daily poet countdown on STATE OF THE UNION until the election MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A reminder of the WAVE Books companion blog to the new book SATE OF THE UNION. http://poetrypolitic.com/ Counting down days. Removing time between us and our new president. CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:26:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) In-Reply-To: <729636.21171.qm@web46202.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I have no idea whatsoever why complexity is an essential element of good art, beyond your sayso. If you look at Kant's sublime, where's the complexity? Or for that matter Carl Andre or Robert Barry. Personally I like ugly but that doesn't have to be complex or complicated for that matter, either. - Alan On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, Troy Camplin wrote: > It's because complexity is a essential element to good art. Do not > mistake complexity for complicatedness. Complicated means "knotted," > meaning once you unknot the thing, you find out that what is there is > one-dimensional, that it is simpler than you thought it was. Complex > means "folded," meaning there are layers upon layers. As you get into > the thing, you find out there is more and more there than you could have > first imagined. SOmething folded has a surface you can see, of course -- > meaning it has something anyone can enjoy -- but the more you get into > the work, the more there is, and the more you can learn about it. If the > more you read something, the less you get out of it, that work was > complicated (and, I would also argue, ugly); if the more you read > something, the more you get out of it, that work was complex (and, I > would argue, beautiful). > > Troy Camplin > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ryan Daley > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 3:42:44 PM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) > > Troy, > > Wasn't this same quip used in your attack on younger poets not being as > talented? "Show me their complexity," you bellowed. That this "show me the > complexity" continues to come up baffles me... > > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> On the last statement, I don't think so. They are creating programs that >> can do what is easy. Creating a program that can create sentences that are >> grammatical, logical, and have sound-rhythms, whether it be iambic or >> rhymes, and structural rhythms is practically impossible for a computer to >> do at the present time. What computers can do is throw labeled words >> together into simple grammatical trees to create something that sounds like >> "experimental" poetry. If people could write an actual sonnet-writing >> program, they'd have done so. Many of the people I know who are into using >> computers for this sort of thing would certainly love to be able to do it. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Elizabeth Switaj >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:38:39 PM >> Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation game? (was fake antho) >> >> Ironically, that sort of statement places more importance on the easily >> analyzable structure and technique of a poem than on its subjective >> effects. >> Dickinson, who I seem to recall writing in formal verse, would have been >> horrified. More to the point, it seems to ignore even devalue the main >> difference between we humans and machines so far, which is that capability >> for irreproducible and not-wholly-logical internal experience. Last I >> checked, the definition of interesting was more connected to that than to >> whether a machine could imitate an item's structure. >> >> Furthermore, I wonder if it has occurred to you that it's possible that >> people haven't created sonnet-writing programs because the people creating >> writing programs are more interested in experimental styles. >> >> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >> elizabethkateswitaj.net >> >> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Troy Camplin >> wrote: >> >>> When the machine can write a sonnet, I'll be impressed. Can it write a >>> sonnet? If a mere algorhythm can produce your kind of "experimental" >> poetry, >>> then perhaps you're not really doing anything that interesting. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ========================================================================= To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ========================================================================= ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 03:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: steve and yuko will be out of towwn until nov 16 hence the early mailing stephanie is now 87 years young Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yuko Otomo & steve dalachinsky with special guest STEPHANIE STONE on piano : Thursday, November 18th @ 8 PM at the Stone on the corner of Ave. C and E 2nd St. admission $5-10 sliding scale ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:57:37 -0400 Reply-To: clwnwr@earthlink.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Bob Heman Subject: just a reminder - 7th Big CLWN WR Event - October 16 - new CLWN WR submission guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Folks - I just wanted to remind you about the 7th Big CLWN WR Event tomorrow night, Thursday, October 16, 2008, at the SAFE-T-GALLERY (111 Front St., Gallery 214) in the DUMBO ("Down Under Manhattan Bridge Overpass") section of downtown Brooklyn. It will start around 7:00 and will feature Paul Pines and Phyllis Wat, along with singers Carolyn Ota and Moira T. Smith, and writers Adriana Scopino, Jane Ormerod, Elizabeth Smith, Evie Ivy, Nathan Whiting, and George Spencer, and myself, host and CLWN WR editor, Bob Heman. Admission is free. Take the "F" train to York Street, then turn right and walk downhill to Front and turn left under the Manhattan Bridge. I hope you all can make it. As always it should be a lot of fun. CLWN WR has been publishing a series of small poem issues containing works no larger than 50 (or sometimes 20) words. From this date forward we will only consider poems no larger than 20 words. We will also continue to publish a series of ephemeral CLWN WR "letter" issues for which we will consider only prose poems no larger than 300 words (but preferably a lot smaller). We are particularly interested in the experimental, the minimal and the highly compressed, and in works in which the imagination manifests itself in unexpected ways. CLWN WR was founded in 1971 by Bob Heman and Stephen Fairhurst, and has been edited by Bob Heman since its third issue. It is never for sale. featuring: with special guests: hosted by Bob Heman editor of CLWN WR since 1971 . For more information, maps, and directions from other subway lines please check the Gallery website at http://www.safetgallery.com Bob Heman clwnwr@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:15:07 -0700 Reply-To: csgiscombe@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "c. s. giscombe" Subject: Marcom and Giscombe read 16 October at City Lights In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dalkey Night at City Lights Bookstore =E2=80=94 SAN FRANCISCO Event date: October 16, 2008 Fall 2008 Dalkey Archive authors Micheline Aharonian Marcom and C.S. Giscom= be will read together at City Lights Bookstore in San Francisco. Marcom wil= l read from her novel Mirror in the Well, and Giscombe will read from his p= oetry book Prairie Style. Both books were published in September. "Marcom's prose is nothing short of gorgeous."--San Francisco Chronicle "[Giscombe's] landscapes widen our vision as surely as the finest painters = and etchers do, as he builds interior bridges with ingenious shadings that = support newly conceived spaces."--San Francisco Chronicle Thursday, 16 October: City Lights Bookstore 261 Columbus Avenue at Broadway, San Francisco 7 pm; free ______________ C. S. Giscombe csgiscombe@yahoo.com =20 telephone: 814-571-0429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 05:10:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sarah Sarai Subject: Richard Pearse, Will Sanders, Sarah Sarai, Pietro Scorsone || Other Rooms Press Poets || Sat. 10/18, 7pm || Greenpoint || Free Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain Saturday, October 18, 7 p.m. FREE Richard Pearse, Will Sanders, Sarah Sarai, Pietro Scorsone Other Rooms Press poets will be reading at: Van Gogh's Radio Lounge=20=20 147 Franklin St., btwn. Greenpoint Ave./India St. (G train) Greenpoint, Brooklyn G Train: "You can either take the 7, E or V train to Court Square (1st stop in Que= ens) and then a=20 Brooklyn-bound G train 2 stops to Greenpoint Ave., or the L train to Grah= am Ave. (2nd=20 stop in Bklyn) and a Queens-bound G train 2 stops to Greenpoint Ave. Exi= t at India=20 St./Manhattan Ave. and head one block west, towards the East River. Take= a left on the=20 first street (Franklin) and look for a sign w/ a sunflower on it on the c= orner of Franklin &=20 Java, about a block away. The G is notoriously unreliable--it's the only train that doesn't go into= Manhattan and so=20 has been neglected by the city for decades; there are almost always delay= s and service=20 changes." -- Ed Go, Other Rooms Press=20=20 (718) 701-4004 (Van Gogh's Radio Lounge} http://www.myspace.com/sarahsarai http://www.mississippireview.com/2008/Vol14No4-Oct08/1404-100108-Sarai.ht= ml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: csgiscombe@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "c. s. giscombe" Subject: POETRY ON KWMR, =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9CHOMEGROWN_RADIO_FOR_WEST_MARIN=E2=80=9D?= In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable POETRY ON KWMR, =E2=80=9CHOMEGROWN RADIO FOR WEST MARIN=E2=80=9D=20 Join us in an experiment in radio and poetry and song on Sunday, 19 October= , from 4 to 6 pm (Pacific time). The place is Brian =E2=80=9CSwevin=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D Kirven=E2=80=99s Rhyth= m and Muse show on KWMR in Point Reyes Station, California. Tune in, if yo= u=E2=80=99re in Marin County, at 90.5 or 89.7. Or listen on the Web by goi= ng to http://www.kwmr.org/index.html and clicking on the =E2=80=9COn Air= =E2=80=9D logo at the top of the page, just under the cow. Berkeley poets and songwriters Anthony Bello, Rebecca Gaydos, C. S. Giscomb= e, and Mariah Hamilton will read poems, talk, sing songs, argue, and field = your questions, concerns, comments, etc. =20 The show will be live and we=E2=80=99re not sure exactly what will happen; = we=E2=80=99re interested, though, in the shape that all this will take. We= =E2=80=99re putting it together, piece by piece, like the Frankenstein mons= ter. Listen in and take part=E2=80=94telephone us Sunday at 415-663-8492 o= r 415-663-8317.=20 We'll be doing two more shows with KWMR this fall=E2=80=94on the 16th and 3= 0th of November, both Sundays. Watch for the announcements. ______________ C. S. Giscombe csgiscombe@yahoo.com =20 telephone: 814-571-0429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:28:34 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephanie Young Subject: Call for proposals: Deep Oakland Comments: To: David Horton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies for any cross-posting, and please do forward! DEEP OAKLAND CALL FOR PROPOSALS Deep Oakland (www.deepoakland.org) is an ongoin= g collaborative website that presents archival and current materials about = Oakland. We are currently seeking proposals for intermedia projects to be presented = online in 2009-10. We will be offering small start up grants (no more than = $250 each) for proposals that need funding for materials. We will consider both new creative works and archival projects. We are espe= cially interested in work that examines the social, cultural, economic, his= torical and political conditions into and out of which Oakland residents li= ve, relate and make (make art, text, family, video, buildings, clothing, et= c.) We are also interested in collaborative and multi-disciplinary projects= . Some examples of proposed projects and/or projects currently underway: - Studio visits / interviews with local artists. - Scene reports from performance sites (music, theater, reenactmen= ts, readings, etc.) - A piece that focuses on sound recordings from farmer's markets i= n several different Oakland neighborhoods. - A photography series of Oakland taco trucks documenting the cust= omers at these locations at particular times, such as noon and midnight. - A photography series of houses and institutions meaningful in th= e history of the Hell's Angels, and a photography series of houses and inst= itutions meaningful in the history of the Black Panthers. - Video works: an hour-long visual & sonic exploration of east bay= tides/shoreline. - Mass observation of a location or event in Oakland and Miami, FL= , and/or another city. - Short interviews with longtime Oakland residents and then presen= tations of an older photo from their personal album, along with a current p= hoto of the same location. - A collection of photographs, zines and other materials from priv= ate archives of materials around the Weather Underground. - Walking tours. We encourage those interested to take a look at the website. Proposals shou= ld include a short description of the project, budget and material needs if= any, and some sort of work sample. Please email proposals to deep.oakland@gmail.com. Consideration of proposals will begin on November 1 and continue unti= l we run out of funds. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 06:25:10 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Amnesty International Stop Execution of Troy Davis- Help prevent a monumental injustice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Seven of nine eye witnesses have recanted testimony and three persons have come forth testifying another man has confessed to the murder of the police officer that Troy Davis is convicted of. The Supreme Court declined to give a reason for its refusal to hear Davis' appeal. [image: Amnesty International USA: TAKE ACTION NOW!] With today's Supreme Court decision, a man with a credible claim to innocence may soon be executed. Only your action can save Troy Davis! Dear david, Today, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear Troy Anthony Davis' appeal. His fate is back in the hands of Georgia authorities who may seek a new execution date at any time. The Supreme Court's decision to deny Troy Davis' petition means that *no court of law will ever hold a hearing* on the witnesses who have recanted their trial testimony in sworn affidavits. Doubts about his guilt raised by these multiple witness recantations will never be resolved. An execution under such a cloud of doubt would undermine public confidence in the state's criminal justice system and would be a grave miscarriage of justice. *The state of Georgia can still do the responsible thing and prevent the execution of Troy Davis: * - Write a letter to the editorcalling on Georgia to stop the execution of Troy Davis! - Call on the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles to reconsiderits previous decision and grant clemency to Troy Davis. - Urge your friends and family to go to *amnestyusa.org/troydavis* or text *TROY to 90999* to add their voices to the over 200,000 that have already taken action on this case. Join the fight for justice. [image: Take Action Now!] Troy Davis was sentenced to death despite a tainted case and serious claims of innocence. (c) Georgia Department of Corrections Sincerely, Larry Cox Executive Director Amnesty International USA [image: Take Action] [image: Donate] [image: Subscribe] DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. Messages sent to this email address are not read. If you have a question or comment, please use our interactive online help system . Subscribe to our RSS feeds. (c) Copyright 2008 | Amnesty International USA | 5 Penn Plaza | New York, NY 10001 | 212.807.8400 Remove yourself from this mailing . Remove yourself from all mailings from Amnesty USA . ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 09:50:36 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: The Cut and Paste Poets An Anthology of Collage Poetry In-Reply-To: <48F24C8E.7070509@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Cecil Touchon Date: Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 12:14 PM Subject: [spidertangle] The Cut and Paste Poets An Anthology of Collage Poetry To: collagepoetry.com@sprynet.com, collage@yahoogroups.com, fluxnexus@yahoogroups.com, spidertangle@yahoogroups.com *The Cut and Paste Poets - An Anthology of Collage Poetry* *Special Limited Edition Collector's Prepublication Version* Greetings all, I would like to announce the publication of a new book. This is a special private stock collector edition without ISBN number or barecode as found on commerically available books. This is a chronological compilation of poetry submitted to an email listserv dedicated to collage poetry. Some additional notes by the authors are also included if they helped to illustrate the intention, construction techniques or source material used in a particular poem's creation. The email group was started as an online studio space where poets and artists explore the methods of collage construction as it applies to poetic texts. This group of collagists have become known as the Cut and Paste Poets because of their methods of poetic construction. A wide range of processes and techniques are represented in this volume illustrating the breadth of possibilities involved in the use of found materials. Each poet exhibits a definite and refined working style that encompasses a wide ranging set of search and gathering methods to compile the raw materials for the poems and a recognizable formal production of the works. To see a preview of the book and to purchase go to: http://www.lulu.com/content/1190566 This version will only ba available for a month or so. If you have an interest, you will want to buy a copy while you can before it is introduced on the wholesale market. Would be great for Christmas presents! Cecil Touchon Ontological Museum Publications __._,_.___ . __,_._,___ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 19:01:24 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: review opportunity in Jacket magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacket magazine is looking for a qualified reviewer to write about the latest issue of Fulcrum (#6). If interested, contact John Tranter at edit{at}jacketmagazine.com ( replace {at} with @ ) and tell him briefly about yourself and your qualifications. To see the Fulcrum 6 table of contents, go to http://fulcrumpoetry.com and click the "Issues" tab at the top. To read the journal's mission statement, click "About". Cheers, Philip ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Philip Nikolayev, Coeditor-in-Chief FULCRUM: AN ANNUAL OF POETRY AND AESTHETICS 421 Huron Avenue Cambridge, MA 02138, USA http://fulcrumpoetry.com phone +1.617.997.1654 e-mail editor{AT}fulcrumpoetry.com personal http://www.myspace.com/nikolayev Letters from Aldenderry: http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844712796.htm ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:59:54 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: On the ruins of the Gano Street Bridge, Providence, RI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On the ruins of the Gano Street Bridge, Providence, RI http://www.alansondheim.org/ RI jpgs # 66, 72, 79, 86, 89, 104, 106, 117, 118, 122, 158 This is a counterweighted railroad bridge, partly burned, which has been raised for decades. You walk a couple of hundred feet out, and from there Daniel Byers climbed vertically up to the top of the raised span, maybe 110 feet. Foofwa performed below. Azure Carter and I filmed in PAL and HD. Rob watched from a beam. This was probably the most dangerous performance to date. Foofwa was avatar but Daniel was in flight. There was no sky- sphere. Daniel would have permanently broken if he fell. I tried to reboot the game but it was useless. Daniel sat at the top. I think one other per- son has made it to the top. The water was below just like the exhibition space. The surface was perforated with broken, split, charred, burned, and missing railroad ties. My left foot broadcast a lot of pain from a kind of degeneration. Foofwa and Daniel were brilliant. Some kids watched. Some kids smoked. Dance and climb were risky. I hugged the rails and lay on the ties. It was impossible to take it all in. I couldn't teleport. None of the prims had signs. I just filmed and filmed, Azure as well. Later Daniel took one of the cameras up a couple of crossbeams. His videowork amazes me. He's cool. Foofwa and Azure are cool. Rob's face was cool. I lay on the beams and dreamed up a storm. The old country was never so hot. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:20:18 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Matias Viegener Subject: experimental writing event In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable UNTITLED (CONFERENCE): SPECULATIONS ON THE EXPANDED FIELD OF WRITING Friday October 24th to Saturday October 25th At REDCAT, The Roy and Edna Disney/CalArts Theater 631 West 2nd Street, Los Angeles CA 90012 The fifth in an annual series of experimental writing conferences at =20 REDCAT, =93Untitled=94 is a two-day conversation about writing which in =20= some manner exceeds the printed page. While we are familiar with =20 visual artworks constituted as a set of instructions, secrets written =20= by visitors in a book, or one artist erasing of another artist's work, =20= what would be their equivalents in the literary world? =93Untitled=94 is a common title of contemporary art works and also = refers =20 to the incipient moment of a new text or idea; it was chosen to convey =20= a sense of openness and process. A variety of writers and artists =20 will discuss the use of language and words and/or their object status, =20= the book and the letter, the question of the "emptiness" vs. the =20 fullness of language as a poetic medium, the pictorial versus the =20 narrative, the incorporation of extra-linguistic symbols and signs =20 (maps, diagrams, formulas, etc.), the question of conceptual writing, =20= and words off the page =96 performed, sited, projected, incanted, or =20 invoked. Among the participants is Kenny Goldsmith, an =93uncreative=94 writer = who =20 labels himself the =93most boring writer in the world=94 and writes = books =20 that include everything he said for a week (Soliloquy, 2001), every =20 move his body made during a thirteen-hour period (Fidget, 1999), and a =20= year of transcribed weather reports (The Weather, 2005). Artist Young-Hae Chang is part of a =93corporate=94 web art group known = as =20 Heavy Industries, whose short Flash texts have mesmerized the art =20 world with their combination of graphic boldness and acute commentary =20= on culture, politics and commerce, yielding a new kind of literary =20 cinema. Currently teaching in the Writing Program at CalArts, Salvador =20 Plascencia=92s first novel, The People of Paper, takes place in the =20 Chicano disapora. Reflecting on the nature of literary characters, =20 some of his people are literally made of paper, and other characters =20 get paper cuts from them. The conference will include two panels on the topic of =93Litterality,=94 = =20 examining how writers use what we normally consider non-linguistic =20 elements, such as symbols, diagrams, maps, or scores placed in the =20 context of writing. We will also look at invented writing systems, =20 and what it might mean to think about the book as an object rather =20 than as a collection of words or sentences. As in the art world, many kinds of appropriation have been undertaken =20= by experiemental writers in the last several years. The panel on =20 =93Appropriation and Citation=94 will look a these practices, asking =20 questions about whose work and what material gets appropriated, cited =20= or resurrected, who owns texts, and if there is a difference between =20 appropriation and citation. A panel on =93The Meaninglessness or -fulness of Language=94 will = examine =20 language as a vehicle of meaning. Rather than look at what texts say, =20= it asks if language simply taken on its own is empty, saturated with =20 meaning, both, or something else. The fifth panel on =93the concept of conceptual writing," looks at the =20= use of writing not to convey meaning or tell stories but to convey =20 concepts, asking how this might be similar, or not, to the work of =20 conceptual artists in the visual arena. In addition to the five panels, there will be two evening readings. =20 The participants in the conference are Young-Hae Chang Heavy =20 Industries, Latasha Diggs, Johanna Drucker, Kenneth Goldsmith, Robert =20= Grenier, Douglas Kearney, Steve McCaffery, Julie Patton, Salvador =20 Plascencia, Jessica Smith, Brian Kim Stefans, Stephanie Taylor, =20 Shanxing Wang, and Heriberto Yepez. Organized by Matias Viegener and Christine Wertheim of the Writing =20 Program at CalArts, and funded by The Annenberg Foundation. See =20 Redcat.org for schedule and ticket information, or email = untitled.writing@gmail.com=20 . Untitled: Speculations on the Expanded Field of Writing Friday October 24th to Saturday October 25th At REDCAT, The Roy and Edna Disney/CalArts Theater 631 West 2nd Street, Los Angeles CA 90012 FRIDAY October 24th 12.30 Opening Addresses 1.00 - 3.00 =96 Litterality 1. Writing is not speech, it is letters on a page. What do we make of =20 the inclusion in writing of non-alphabetic signs, symbols, diagrams; =20 writing as map or score; invented writing notations; or the book as =20 object? Johanna Drucker, Salvador Plascencia, Latasha Diggs, =20 Shanxing Wang 3.30 - 5.00 =96 The Meaninglessness or -fulness of Language. As a vehicle, is language empty, saturated with meaning, both, or =20 something else? Jessica Smith, Bob Grenier, Christine Wertheim 5.00 - 6.00 =96 Drinks at REDCAT with participants and audience 8.30 - 10.30 =96 Evening Readings/Performances Brian Kim Stephans, Julie Patton, Steve McCaffery, Young-Hae Chang =20 Heavy Industries, Heriberto Yepez, Vincent Dachy, Christine Wertheim =20= [MC: Matias Viegener] SATURDAY October 25th Morning 10.30 - 12.00 =96 Appropriation and Citation. Whose work and what material gets appropriated, cited and resurrected? =20= Who owns texts? Is there a difference between appropriation and =20 citation? Steve McCaffery, Doug Kearney, Kenneth Goldsmith 12.30 - 2.00 =96 Litterality 2. Writing is not speech, it is letters on a page. What do we make of =20 the inclusion in writing of non-alphabetic signs, symbols, diagrams; =20 writing as map or score; invented writing notations; or the book as object? Brian Kim Stephans, Julie Patton, Vincent Dachy Afternoon 3.30 - 5.00 =96 The Concept of Conceptual Writing. What is the relation between conceptual writing and the trajectory of =20= conceptual art? Stephanie Taylor, Heriberto Yepez, Young-Hae Chang+Marc =20 Voge 5.00 - 6.00 =96 Summary Discussion with all panelists 8.30 - 10.30 =96 Evening Readings/Performances Latasha Diggs, Bob Grenier, Johanna Drucker, Shanxing Wang, Jessica =20 Smith, Doug Kearney, Stephanie Taylor, Kenneth Goldsmith [MC:Christine =20= Wertheim] Tickets will be $10 per session (there are 4 - Friday day + eve, and =20= Sat day + eve), $5 for students, with a $30 package to cover all four =20= if brought at the beginning. =20= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:35:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: susan maurer Subject: Susan Maurer reading 10-21 at the Fall Cafe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will be reading 10-21 with George Held and Gil Fagiani at the Fall Cafe = =2C 307 Smith Street at 7pm. Come say hello. Susan Maurer _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 07:48:30 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Bill Berkson Subject: at the Colony Room Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Colony Room Anne Colvin & Guests at NEW LANGTON ARTS 1246 Folsom Street, San Francisco presents Saturday, October 25 8 pm (Bar open 7-11 pm) Bill Berkson=20 =B3Goods and Services=B2 & Owsley Brown & Jerome Hiler Untitled (Louisville Orchestra Project) Poet, art critic, former professor of Liberal Arts at the San Francisco Art Institute, Bill Berkson will read his new pamphlet Goods and Services (Blue Press, 2008) as well as from his forthcoming Portrait and Dream: New & Selected Poems (Coffee House Press, spring 2009). =20 Filmmakers Owsley Brown and Jerome Hiler will screen footage from their work-in-progress Untitled (Louisville Orchestra Project) centered on the development of the fabled muscial organization founded in 1937 by conductor Robert Whitney and the then Mayor of Louisville, Kentucky, Charles Farnsley= . Beginning in 1948, Whitney, sometimes described as a =B3wide-eyed visionary,=B2 commissioned new works from contemporary composers such as William Schumann and others, and hosted such major figures as Igor Stravinsky and Dimitri Shostakovich.=20 Jerome Hiler, a filmmaker since 1964, has a background in abstract painting= . He works in both documentary and experimental fields. His films have appeared both internationally and locally. The Louisville Orchestra Project= , the work in progress, is due to be completed in 2009. Owlsey Brown is a filmmaker as well as a wine producer. A native of Louisville, Kentucky, he has resided in San Francisco for nearly 20 years. His films include Night Waltz: the Museum of Paul Bowles (2000), and the recent Precious Treasury (2008) on the sacred sites of Tibet. Premier Screening. Filmmakers may be present. NEW LANGTON ARTS 1246 Folsom Street, San Francisco 415-626-5416 newlangtonarts.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We have some great readings happening very soon here at The Poetry Project = . . .=20 Friday, October 17, 10 PM Marie Buck, Gordon Faylor & Edward Hopely Marie Buck's first book of poems, Life & Style, is forthcoming from Patrick Lovelace Editions. She co-edits, with Brad Flis, the small poetry journal Model Homes. She lives and studies in Detroit. Gordon Faylor and Edward Hopely will read from, perform and distribute a new collaborative work for two readers. Gordon Faylor presently serves as the Assistant Editor of mid)rib and as Editor of its upcoming chapbook series. Edward Hopely is the author of some chapbooks and ran the =B3Hammered All Around Their Nail Heads=B2 reading series this past year. Monday, October 20, 8 PM Patrick Durgin & Brad Flis Patrick Durgin=B9s most recent publications include Imitation Poems (Atticus/Finch, 2007), The Route, a collaborative hybrid-genre book written with Jen Hofer (Atelos, 2008), and contributions to Chicago Review, Denver Quarterly, The New Review of Literature and Plan B. He edited Hannah Weiner=B9s Open House for Kenning Editions and teaches literature and writing at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Brad Flis is the author of the chapbooks Health Pack (Chuckwagon Press, 2006) and, with Steven Zultanski, USA Equals Not Sees (Nocturnal Editions, 2008). His book Peasant= s will be published by Patrick Lovelace Editions this Fall. His work has been published or will be appearing in 1913: a journal of forms, Open Letter, President's Choice, The Physical Poets, Left Facing Bird, and the Poets on Painters exhibit and catalog from the Ulrich Museum of Art. A member of the Lil' Norton publishing initiative, he co-edits the journal Model Homes with Marie Buck in Detroit. Wednesday, October 22, 8 PM Robert Grenier & Aaron Shurin Robert Grenier was born around 7 in the morning at Abbott Hospital in Minneapolis, Minnesota (where his mother was, when she had pneumonia, later= ) on August 4, 1941. He says, =B3Happily (July 5, 2008), I am =8Cstill around=B9 (though I often feel the need (& do!) take many naps) ! ! I often wake up from a nap w/ a sense of clarity/urgency/=B9capacity=B9 =8B WHAT CAN I DO ? ? I=B9d like to write =B3My Autobiography=B2, but not here. Space does not permit an adequate account of my history. Right now (not necessarily in this order), I=B9d like to: write the rest of this =8Cbio=B9 for you; write more drawing poems (later); finish =8Cseemingly infinite=B9 work on me-&-my-co-editor-Curtis=B9s wor= k on our Larry Eigner Collected Poems for Stanford; continue to make & =8Cdistribute to the World At Large=B9 (!) prints made from selected sequences/=B9arrangements=B9 of notebook drawing poems (scanned & edited by Peter Turner & me in Bolinas); & hang around in Connecticut & dawdle & talk & make love w/ Susie, & feed the cat Esme . . . . I wonder what the World has =8Cin store=B9 . . . ? ?=B2 Aaron Shurin's newest book is King of Shadows, a collection of narrative essays from City Lights. Recent poetry books includ= e Involuntary Lyrics (Omnidawn, 2005), A Door (2000) and The Paradise of Forms: Selected Poems (1999), both from Talisman House. He teaches in the MFA in Writing Program at the University of San Francisco. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:48:03 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Curation Opportunity: Links Hall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CALL FOR PROPOSALS: 2009/2010 LINKS HALL ARTISTIC ASSOCIATES http://www.linkshall.org DEADLINE: OCTOBER 31, 2008=20 Applicants do not need to be based in Chicago.=20 Links Hall=E2=80=99s Artistic Associates (AAs) each curate a month-long (fo= ur-weekends, Fridays-Sundays) performance series for the Links Hall space, = for which they receive a budget, along with marketing and technical support= . These programs have included dance, puppetry, live art/performance, expe= rimental theater, readings, music, and multidisciplinary work. There is in= formation about the 2005-2008 AA programs on our web site: http://linkshall= .org/o-aa.shtml.=20 AA projects have taken place annually since 2005, and have enhanced the qua= lity of our artistic programs, generated significant press coverage, and ex= panded audiences for new work at Links Hall. The AA program format allows = for welcome shifts in artistic perspective each year, keeping programming f= resh and interesting. Many AAs have had limited or no curatorial experience= before, and the opportunity to curate a month-long program has been experi= enced as an opportunity for new creative and professi on al development. Links Hall plans to select three AAs for 2009-2010, and welcomes proposals.= The proposal review and selecti on of AAs will be made by Links Hall=E2=80= =99s Programming Committee, which comprises artists (including some past AA= s), as well as Links Hall Staff and Board members.=20 Selected AAs will receive: * Space: Links Hall=E2=80=99s studio will be provided for the four weeks of= your project: Evening hours for rehearsals: Tuesday-Thursday 2 hours before each performance showtime: Friday-Sunday It is important that the multi-use nature of Links Hall is understood =E2= =80=93 we have commitments to residency artists, classes, and other renters= for many daytime hours. The space must be completely cleared after each re= hearsal and performance. Additional time can be made available for workshop= s, classes, and public discussions. Please also note that rehearsal time is= provided for the technical and practical get-in and set-up of work, and no= t for the creation/development of that work. The space is a white room with a blonde wood floor. We have fixed riser sea= ting for 65. If you would like to visit the space, to help with developing = your curatorial ideas, please contact us to set up a time.=20 Note: Links Hall is a second floor walk-up; there is no elevator or escalat= or.=20 * Budget: Links Hall will provide the following budget for your project: Curator=E2=80=99s fee: $500 Program Budget: $2,500 plus 50% of ticket revenue The program budget should cover artists=E2=80=99 fees, travel costs, accomm= odati on , and technical/prop/material needs. Public workshop income, if an= y, will usually be allocated 100% to your budget. In addition , Links Hall = will provide marketing (print and electronic publicity) and technical suppo= rt (Technical Director for the performances and some rehearsals). In some c= ases, AAs work with Links Hall to secure additional funding, which has allo= wed for larger scale projects -- including, for example, being able to pres= ent visiting artists. Each year's AAs are also invited to participate on Links Hall's Programmin= g Committee to select the subsequent year's AAs.=20 All practicing artists are welcome to submit a proposal, and no past curato= rial experience is necessary. AAs do not need to be based in Chicago . If = you are based elsewhere, please reference in your proposal whether you plan= to be in Chicago for any program planning and/or your program. We will review proposals in the context of Links Hall=E2=80=99s missi on : = =E2=80=9CLinks Hall encourages artistic innovati on and public engagement b= y maintaining a facility and providing flexible programming for the researc= h, development and presentati on of new work in the performing arts.=E2=80= =9D AA programs are the largest scale public programs presented by Links Hall, = and past AAs have worked closely with Links Hall and their artists to ensur= e effective programs. We will select proposals that not on ly appear to be = artistically innovative, but that appear practical in the c on text of the = available resources (time, space, and budget), as well as the proposer=E2= =80=99s likely ability to conceptualize, develop, and realize a large scale= project. Please include the following items in your proposal. Do not exceed three pa= ges in total: * Contact information : Your name, contact mailing address, telephone numbe= r, and email address. * Project title: Please provide a working project title, and identify the a= rtistic discipline(s) your project falls into. * Creative process: Please summarize how participati on in the AA program w= ould assist your creative process and development, and include a summary of= your arts-related experience (within the three page maximum noted above). = Briefly describe your current areas of interest as an artist, and whether o= r not you have past experience as a curator (past curatorial experience is = not required).=20 * Project summary: Summarize your proposed curatorial project. Please expla= in your interest in curating this project, as well as your goals and object= ives. Is there a pressing need for the project (for example, a gap in progr= amming in the City?) and what are the challenges involved in your project? If you know which artists you would like to curate, please include a list o= f their names; we do not require bio informati on about them. If you do not= know artists=E2=80=99 names, please make sure your proposal dem on strates= a clear picture of the likely content of your program. If available, please indicate a general plan for your performance schedule.= Bey on d the expectati on that AAs will program four weekends of performan= ces (Fridays-Sundays), we have no requirements regarding the structure of t= he schedule: e.g. full length pieces vs mixed programs; different programs = each week, or l on ger runs etc. Please review past AA programs to see diff= erent approaches which have been undertaken. AAs are welcome to curate them= selves into their programs.=20 Please identify any special technical requirements your project may have. T= he Links Hall ground plan and Technical Handbook are available on line at h= ttp://linkshall.org/a-tech.shtml=20 Note: we recommend scheduling artists with a focus on quality before quanti= ty. Please be sure you are not curating a busy and technically demanding pr= ogram which will unreas on ably stretch Links Hall=E2=80=99s office and tec= hnical staff =E2=80=93 or yourself! However, a packed schedule of work whic= h is low tech and low maintenance could n on etheless be effective. * Additional programming/fundraising: Please indicate opportunities for add= iti on al programming you would like to consider =E2=80=93 for example, wor= kshops, discussions, off-site partnerships. Also include any ideas for addi= ti on al fundraising you or Links Hall may like to pursue. Additi on al pro= gramming and fundraising ideas are welcome in your proposal, but are not re= quired.=20 * Audience development: Please describe the audience you plan to attract. H= ow does this align with your understanding of Links Hall=E2=80=99s current = audience base? What opportunities for new audience development does your pr= ogram provide? * Additional materials: Please include your resume (2 page maximum; this is= in addition to the 3 page maximum for your proposal). No artists=E2=80=99 = documentati on (your own or the artists you plan to curate) is required. No= project budget is required. Please do not use folders or binders. * APPLICATION DEADLINE: POSTMARK BY 5PM, FRIDAY OCTOBER 31, 2008 OR DELIVER= BY 5PM, FRIDAY OCTOBER 31, 2008 TO: LINKS HALL, 3435 NORTH SHEFFIELD #207,= CHICAGO IL 60657. All written application materials should ALSO be emailed as one Word attach= ment/document to jthornton@linkshall.org BY 5PM, FRIDAY OCTOBER 31, 2008. (= Please combine your proposal and resume into one Word document.) * Notification : Selected artists will be notified by December 15, 2008. * Schedule: AA programs will take place between October 2009 and May 2010.= =20 IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE CONTACT JENNIFER THORNTON AT LINKS HALL:= (773) 281-0824 OR jthornton@linkshall.org =0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?= =0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp:= //mail.yahoo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:08:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Bukowski Comments: To: jkarmin@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <791694.99099.qm@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed > My wife Jean Baird asked me the following question: I need to find the Bukowski archive. Do you think someone on the SUNY =20= listserve might know where it is? Also---check this out: The Purdy A-frame Project So we built a house, my wife and I our house at a =20 backwater puddle of a lake near Ameliasburg, Ont. =20= --Al Purdy =93In Search of Owen Roblin=94 And that A-frame house, made out of second-hand lumber and original =20 poetry, became the most famous writer's house in the country. =20 Hundreds of writers and their housemates found their way to Roblin =20 Lake to visit the Purdys and talk about poetry and history while =20 downing beer or wild grape wine. Coleridge and his friends had their =20 lake country, and now the Canadian poets would have theirs. A lot of =20 poetry and prose came out of that hard-to-find place. To prevent its second-hand wood from ending up on someone's scrap =20 heap, and with the blessing and support of Eurithe Purdy, The Purdy A-=20= frame project is raising funds to purchase and preserve the property, =20= create an endowment and establish a poet-in-residence program. Jean Baird 604 224 4898 jeanbaird@shaw.ca "Whip" Bowering Shortstop to the Gods =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:44:22 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Kandinsky6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kandinsky6 http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky6 About Kandinsky6: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky6/about.htm All images are 1280x1024 so make your browser window big as possible. F11, on the PC, should toggle the browser fullscreen. I made these images with dbCinema, a graphic synthesizer I'm writing in Adobe Director. About dbCinema: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky3/intro Slidvid of all dbCinema series: http://vispo.com/dbcinema/kandinsky/slidvid.htm ja ,.. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:45:17 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Washington Broadcast Set for "Torturing Democracy"//Links for Visual Poetry Call, articles, films, essays, documents, "Poetry & Torture"-- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Just received this-- if not in the CD area, there is a link here for the documentary, documents and etc-- also since this is a topic my blogspot has been involved with for some time= , also provided are link to a related Visual Poetry/Mail Art/writing/Inter-media Call, and more related films, documents, essays, articles and two essays re Poetry and Torture on line's links-- (there are more to come--) Washington Broadcast Set for "Torturing Democracy" Reviewers rate new documentary "compelling," "impressive," "top-shelf" Guantanamo interrogation draft picked by Slate.com as "Hot Document" For more information contact: Thomas Blanton/Ilyse Veron - 202/994-7000 http://www.nsarchive.org Washington, DC, October 17, 2008 - The new documentary film on the Bush administration's interrogation and detention policies, "Torturing Democracy," will air on Washington D.C.'s WETA-TV tonight at 10 p.m. Produced and written by eight-time Emmy winner and National Security Archiv= e fellow Sherry Jones, the documentary has drawn major online buzz as well as New York Times coverage of PBS's failure to find a national scheduling spot for the film before President Bush leaves office in January 2009. Reviewers have described the film as a "compelling example of video story-telling" that "delivers impressively on a promise to connect the dots in an investigation of interrogations of prisoners in U.S. custody." Slate.com selected a key revelation in the film as the Slate "Hot Document" this week - a previously unpublished December 2002 draft of "standard operating procedure" at Guantanamo which shows that interrogators there adopted their techniques directly from the survival training (Survival Evasion Resistance Escape or SERE) given to American troops so they could resist the worst of Communist gulag treatment. The companion Web site for the film, www.torturingdemocracy.org , features key documents, a detailed timeline, the full annotated transcript of the show, and lengthy transcripts of major interviews carried out for the film. Hosted by the National Security Archive at George Washington University, th= e Web site will ultimately include a complete "Torture Archive" of primary sources. http://www.nsarchive.org Stream the entire film and read related documents online at: http://www.torturingdemocracy.org here are the listings of some other links etc-- Cracking World's Walls & Codes--Mail Art/Visual Poetry Call Cracking World's Walls & Codes Concrete & Virtual No Sieges, Tortures, Starvation & SurveillanceGAZA--GUANTANAMO--ABU GHRAIB--THE GLOBE NO MORE! (see blogspot for the rest of info--re sending, documentation, etc-) *Cinema of Catharsis* http://www.flickr.com/photos/8237952@N06/sets/72157605911632948 SIDE BAR ESSAY & SETS OF LINKS RELATED TO THE "CRACKING WALLS & CODES CALL'= " "Torture, Rights and Writes" Essay/Intro to "The New Extreme Experimental American Poetry and Arts" "Gitmos Across the USA" extensive lists of articles and links on detention and deaths within the USA "Waiting for the Guards" film of extreme performance group undergoing "enhanced interrogations"used by the US & allies "Some Websites on Iraq" two essays published in on-line journals: David-Baptiste Chirot: "Waterboarding & Poetry" Wordforword #13 Spring 2008 (also has Visual Poetry by chirot) Poems from Guant=E1namo The Detainees Speak David Baptite Chirot * No* KAURAB Translation Site Broken Laws, Broken Lives: Medical Evidence of Torture by US Personnel and Its Impact a report by Physicians for Human Rights, with a preface by Major General Antonio M. TagubaPhysicians for Human Rights, 130 pp., available at brokenlives.info Guantanamo: Beyond the Law a series of five articles by To= m Lasseter in the McClatchy Newspapers, June 15=9619, 2008, available at www.mcclatchydc.com/detaineesThis Site is a superb one regarding many aspects of Life at Guantanamo and after, with Interviews, photos and Video =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:55:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Interview with John Amen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" JOHN AMEN: PUTTING HIS LITERARY MAGAZINE ON A =93PEDESTAL=94 By Doug Holder John Amen is the founder of the well-regarded online magazine =93Pedest= al=94=20 that was launched in 2000. His most recent poetry collection is titled: =93= More=20 of Me Disappears=94 that was praised by the prominent American poet Thom= as=20 Lux . I talked with Amen on my Somerville Community Access TV Show: =93Po= et=20 to Poet: Writer to Writer.=94 Doug Holder: Why did you start an online literary magazine like Pedestal.= Are=20 online lit. mags as important today as print journals? John Amen: In terms of starting the magazine I guess I have always been=20= interesting in doing something like this. I always thought it would be a = print=20 publication. Around 1998 or 9, I started to explore the Internet more. I=20= noticed that there were a few literary magazines online like: PIFF, THREE= =20 CANDLES, etc=85 I noticed a few science fiction on- line zines as well. W= hen I=20 encountered this it seemed like a very interesting way to go. But there w= as,=20 and still is, some prejudice against online publishing. DH: Yeah, but some say Pedestal is as good or better than most print=20 magazines. JA: Yeah. I think so. I think we have come a long way. We have been arou= nd=20 for eight years. We have managed to create something that is well regarde= d.=20 It is gratifying to see how things evolved. We have brought together the= =20 tradition of poetry magazines with the technology of the time. I think we= have=20 traditional literary values in a modern setting. DH: Are you a nonprofit? =20 JA: Yes. Going nonprofit helped us a lot. The first time we went nonprofi= t I=20 would open letters and see checks from readers, and it was kind of mind=20= blowing. It was a mark of approval, validation. DH: How are you going to adjust for the economic straits the country is = in? JA: October is usually our fund raising month. We held off sending emails= to=20 readers. I thought that this would be the worst time to ask readers for m= oney.=20 Fortunately we got a grant. We do pay writers. Right now we are going to=20= publish the same amount. But we would modify it if need be. DH: In an interview with poet Gloria Mindock, you said that you like bein= g an=20 editor because they are on: =93 =85the firing line of creative endeavor.=94= Can you=20 expand on that? JA: I am exposed to a lot of poetry, manuscripts. You see such diverse wo= rk,=20 and you get a sense of what=92s going on. What are the collective mindset= s?=20 Are the timeless themes still there? etc=85 You can see how things evolve= =85you=20 have a sense of connection. DH: Do you think you have seen more of your own work published because=20= you are the editor of a well-known magazine? JA: I think it helps more with speaking and reading engagements. I see it= =20 primarily in that area, but it may be true in publishing. DH: I notice you publish such well-known small press poets as Jared Smith= ,=20 A.D. Winans, and Eric Greinke. What do you look for in a poem? JA: Jared=92s work has evolved and changed=85I like his work a lot.=20=20= The poem has to have that intangible magic that grabs you buy the balls. = Of=20 all the poems you=92ve read, what poem do you remember? And after all the= =20 things you read only a few things really stick. At Pedestal we are open to a lot of work that others might not be. There = are=20 a lot of poets I have connected with that I am not sure other editors hav= e. I=20 am not afraid to go with them. DH: Does the buck stop with you? JA: It varies. Sometimes I am more involved. If my editor is given full j= udgment=20 over the work=97then I usually sit back. DH: In your poems there is mention of time in NYC and drug abuse. Is this= =20 autobiographical? JA: Loosely. I did live in New York for a while. I have experience=20 with =94substances.=94 The details are modified. DH: There are a lot of late night diners too. JA: I always loved diners. Diners at 2AM, with bad coffee. DH: I had a disagreement with Rebecca Wolff the founder of Fence Magazine= .=20 I had asked her if any of her books were Print-On-Demand. She told me tha= t=20 she would never use Print -On-Demand=85she never saw one that looked like= a=20 real book. Do you feel there is an elitist attitude toward POD? How do yo= u feel=20 about POD as a method for publishing books? JA: I emailed somebody, and asked him : =93What does it matter if somethi= ng is=20 POD? He said the potential problem is that people put out these books but= =20 they are not invested in them, so there is a surplus of books with no bac= king. However most people I know who are involved in the business of publishi= ng=20 poetry are pretty invested in poetry. DH: I mean the publisher has to buy the books from the online printer, he= has=20 to edit them, select the poet, design the book, etc=85That=92s an investm= ent. JA: Financially it seems that it would be to the advantage of the publish= er to=20 be invested in his project. DH: Do you have an MFA? JA: No. I majored in English and Philosophy as an undergrad. I took creat= ive=20 writing classes as part of the degree and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the spa= ce to=20 explore and interact. I suppose, a lot of people go to an MFA to get a=20= teaching job and to get published. DH: Do you teach? JA: I tutor high school age kids. I have taught four-day workshops at=20 Colleges, etc=85 DH: What would you tell the readers about submitting to Pedestal? JA: Send us your work. We are always open. Pedestal is doing well and we = are=20 going to be around. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: Jeff Hansen Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeff Hansen Subject: Sundays at the Blake School Reading Series Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This Sunday, October 19, there will be a group reading featuring poets and fiction writers from the Twin Cities area. Sundays at the Blake School Reading Series The first event this year in the Sundays at the Blake School Reading Series will be a group reading featuring prominent local writers, some of whom have national reputations. The event will take place Sunday, October 19, at 2 p.m. in the Link Lounge at the Northrop Campus (The Upper School), which is located two blocks west of the Minneapolis Sculpture Garden at 511 Kenwood Parkway. The event is free and open to the public. There is also free parking. The writers include Wang Ping (widely published poet, novelist, short story writer, and critic; Macalester College professor), Kao Kalia Yang (Hmong memoirist), j otis powell (spoken word, radio producer), Elizabeth Burns (poet & novelist), Maria Damon (poet, critic, U of M professor), Greg Hewett (poet, Carleton College professor), Eric Lorberer (poet, publisher of Rain Taxi) Kelly Everding (poet, publisher of Rain Taxi), Sarah Fox (poet, teacher at Perpich Arts Academy), John Colburn (poet, short story, publisher, teacher at Perpich), Sun Yung Shin (poet, publisher, teacher at Perpich Arts Academy), Jonathon Brannen (poet), Mary Kasimor (poet), Grant Grays (book reviewer), Michael Mann (poet, publisher), Jeff Hansen (poet, short story writer, Blake School Teacher), Bob Zell (poet, Blake School Teacher). The second event in this fall's Sundays at the Blake School Reading Series will feature spoken word artist and award-winning radiio producer j otis powell who will be reading from his jazz-influenced work on November 16. The Blake School is a pre-kindergarten through grade 12, independent school located on three campuses in the Minneapolis metropolitan area. It provides students with an excellent, academically challenging education in a diverse and supportive community committed to a common set of values. Students are expected to participate in an integrated program of academic, artistic and athletic activities in preparation for college, lifelong learning, community service and lives as responsible world citizens. Contact: Jefferson Hansen 952 988 3790 jhansen@blakeschool.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 08:51:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: eric unger Subject: string of small machines 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline string of small machines will be reading work for issue 4 until November 15th. Please send 5-10 pages of work in an ms word doc to small_machines at yahoo dot com. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:15:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eleni Stecopoulos Subject: Seeking NYC sublet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poet teaching in NY this fall seeks sublet in Queens=2C Bklyn or Manhattan = for rest of semester. Studio or 1-bed=2C may be open to share depending on = situation. Please write backchannel or forward. Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:31:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: James T Sherry Subject: Poetry & Ecology: This Sunday Comments: To: Tom Oppenheim , Nina Capelli , Jonathan Skinner , Marcella Durand , Forrest Gander MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Last Minute Opportunity Jonathan Skinner, Marcella Durand, Forrest Gander, and James Sherry will participate in a panel on Poetry, Environment, and Activism at Stella Adler Studios 31 West 27th Street, New York, # 212 689 0087 on Sunday, October 19 @ 4pm sharp. Please attend in person. $20 at the door. James T Sherry Segue Foundation (212)472 3160phone, (917) 608 2733cell sherryj@us.ibm.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A0Maybe the Beat Musuem could provide some info.=0A=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Strange,= one wouldn't think that anything regarding the Buk would be inaccessible. = Strange, too, that mainstream poets are considered accessible. Is Billy Col= lins accessible or simply redundant, lame?=A0=A0Do the so-called inaccessss= ible poets require handicap access?=0A=0A=0A=A0=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mess= age ----=0AFrom: George Bowering =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.B= UFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, October 17, 2008 4:08:39 PM=0ASubject: Re: Bukow= ski=0A=0A>=0A=0AMy wife Jean Baird asked me the following question:=0A=0AI = need to find the Bukowski archive. Do you think someone on the SUNY=A0 =0Al= istserve might know where it is?=0A=0A=0AAlso---check this out:=0A=0A=0A=0A= The Purdy A-frame Project=0A=0A=0ASo we built a house, my wife and I=0A=0A= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 our house at a=A0 =0Abackwater puddle of a lake=0A=0A= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 near Ameliasburg, Ont.=0A=0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =0A=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= --Al Purdy =93In Search of Owen Roblin=94=0A=0A=0AAnd that A-frame house, = made out of second-hand lumber and original=A0 =0Apoetry, became the most f= amous writer's house in the country.=A0 =0AHundreds of writers and their ho= usemates found their way to Roblin=A0 =0ALake to visit the Purdys and talk = about poetry and history while=A0 =0Adowning beer or wild grape wine. Coler= idge and his friends had their=A0 =0Alake country, and now the Canadian poe= ts would have theirs. A lot of=A0 =0Apoetry and prose came out of that hard= -to-find place.=0A=0A=0ATo prevent its second-hand wood from ending up on s= omeone's scrap=A0 =0Aheap, and with the blessing and support of Eurithe Pur= dy, The Purdy A- =0Aframe project is raising funds to purchase and preserve= the property,=A0 =0Acreate an endowment and establish a poet-in-residence = program.=0A=0AJean Baird=0A=0A604 224 4898=0A=0Ajeanbaird@shaw.ca=0A=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A"Whip" Bowering=0AShortstop to the Gods=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Chec= k guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html= =0A=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!= ?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp= ://mail.yahoo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 00:05:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Performance at Brown University Interrupt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Performance at Brown University Interrupt Foofwa d'Imobilite, dance Alan Sondheim and Sandy Baldwin, Second Life avatar performance Azure Carter, song and camera http://www.alansondheim.org/ performance series - RIperform jpgs 216, 218, 220, 221, 230, 234, 236 2 hours of setup mishaps then running on a slower machine and line than expected. Foofwa dances/proscenium & somewhat in the round, Second Life projected behind him. Here doubled spaces and problematic: full round in Second Life projected on a screen, proscenium and partial round in real life, flattening the screen which is pushed further into the background by virtue of the architecture, So modalities of architecture, performance, and dance/behavior interact; the full depth of Second Life becomes more illustration than anything else, and the shallow depth of the proscenium becomes fecund, replete with possibilities, in the partial darkness. These are orders of the real and virtual, of dancing and engineering, which still clash in the new century; the entanglements will take decades to work out, as human beings adjust to the newest furious computation speeds tending towards more elaborate interfaces. The performance appears oddly barren in the photographs; with sound and audience, it was electrifying. To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: stephanie anderson Subject: Three Chapbooks from Projective Industries In-Reply-To: <98e87a110810161642j32dd7429x3d3de3e0916fb8c1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Projective Industries results from an impression thrown off by steam press. Projective Industries likes pop rocks. Is there a little decency which Projective Industries may have picked up in Canada? Projective Industries buys technoorganic. Projective Industries is breathless waiting for you. We are please to announce the launch of www.projectiveindustries.com, with new chapbooks by Thomas Hummel, Thibault Raoult, and Samuel Amadon. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Camille Martin Subject: Interview with Alice Burdick Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Please tune in to CKLN-FM for my interview of Alice Burdick on the occasion= of the release of Flutter by Mansfield Press. Alice Burdick interviewed by Camille Martin Tuesday, October 21, 2:00 - 3:00 pm CKLN 88.1 FM To listen online: http://www.ckln.fm Cheers, Camille =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 04:40:42 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: { brad brace } Subject: Roadshine Shrines and the White Squirrels of Exeter In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.bbrace.net/roadsideshrines/1167.html /:b ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 12:40:12 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ask bukowski's wife in la linda or the ex-black sparrow publisher On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:26:10 -0700 steve russell writes: > Maybe the Beat Musuem could provide some info. > > Strange, one wouldn't think that anything regarding the Buk would be > inaccessible. Strange, too, that mainstream poets are considered > accessible. Is Billy Collins accessible or simply redundant, > lame? Do the so-called inaccessssible poets require handicap > access? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: George Bowering > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 4:08:39 PM > Subject: Re: Bukowski > > > > > My wife Jean Baird asked me the following question: > > I need to find the Bukowski archive. Do you think someone on the > SUNY > listserve might know where it is? > > > Also---check this out: > > > > The Purdy A-frame Project > > > So we built a house, my wife and I > > our house at a > backwater puddle of a lake > > near Ameliasburg, > Ont. > > > > --Al Purdy “In Search of Owen Roblin” > > > And that A-frame house, made out of second-hand lumber and original > > poetry, became the most famous writer's house in the country. > Hundreds of writers and their housemates found their way to Roblin > Lake to visit the Purdys and talk about poetry and history while > downing beer or wild grape wine. Coleridge and his friends had > their > lake country, and now the Canadian poets would have theirs. A lot > of > poetry and prose came out of that hard-to-find place. > > > To prevent its second-hand wood from ending up on someone's scrap > heap, and with the blessing and support of Eurithe Purdy, The Purdy > A- > frame project is raising funds to purchase and preserve the > property, > create an endowment and establish a poet-in-residence program. > > Jean Baird > > 604 224 4898 > > jeanbaird@shaw.ca > > > > > > "Whip" Bowering > Shortstop to the Gods > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Small Publisher's Fair October 24 &25 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'll be in London for the Small Publisher's Fair at the Conway Hall, Red Lion Square October 24th and 25th. If you're there, please drop by the Cuneiform Press table and say hello. More information, including the schedule for the readings on Saturday can be found at: http://www.rgap.co.uk/spf.php Cheers, Kyle ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:40:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Patrick Durgin and Brad Flis at the Poetry Project Monday October 20th at 8:00 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable PATRICK DURGIN AND BRAD FLIS The Poetry Project Monday October 20th at 8:00 Patrick Durgin=B9s most recent publications include Imitation Poems (Atticus/Finch, 2007), The Route, a collaborative hybrid-genre book written with Jen Hofer (Atelos, 2008), and contributions to Chicago Review, Denver Quarterly, The New Review of Literature and Plan B. He edited Hannah Weiner=B9s Open House for Kenning Editions and teaches literature and writing at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. =20 Brad Flis is the author of the chapbooks Health Pack (Chuckwagon Press, 2006) and, with Steven Zultanski, USA Equals Not Sees (Nocturnal Editions, 2008). His book Peasants will be published by Patrick Lovelace Editions thi= s Fall. His work has been published or will be appearing in 1913: a journal o= f forms, Open Letter, President's Choice, The Physical Poets, Left Facing Bird, and the Poets on Painters exhibit and catalog from the Ulrich Museum of Art. A member of the Lil' Norton publishing initiative, he co-edits the journal Model Homes with Marie Buck in Detroit. Monday Night Readings on the horizon include: Nov. 3 SARAH CAMPBELL and JANE SPRAGUE Nov. 17 SUZANNE STEIN and ANN STEPHENSON Dec. 8 LOUIS CABRI and KEVIN VARRONE Dec. 15 C.J. MARTIN and DAVID LARSON Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:49:34 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Edwin Torres & Albert Flynn DeSilver at SPT 10/24/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Small Press Traffic is thrilled to present: Edwin Torres and Albert Flynn DeSilver Friday, October 24, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Lecture Hall Refreshments will be served Join us! EDWIN TORRES has collaborated with a wide range of artists, creating performances that intermingle poetry with vocal & physical improvisation, sound-elements and visual theater. He has received poetry fellowships from the New York Foundation for the Arts, The Foundation For Contemporary Performance Art, The Poets Fund and The Lower Manhattan Cultural Council. He has taught workshops at Naropa University, St. Marks Poetry Project, Bard College, Mills College and Miami University among others. His work has been published in many anthologies, and his CD, Holy Kid (Kill Rock Stars Records), is in the sound archives of The Whitney Museum for American Art. He is co- editor of the poetry journal/DVD Rattapallax. His books include, The PoPedology Of An Ambient Language (Atelos Books), Fractured Humorous (Subpress), The All-Union Day Of The Shock Worker (Roof Books) and I Hear Things People Haven't Really Said. His recent project is a collaboration with Spanic Attack (www.spanicattack.com) called NORICUA, a noh-boricua inspired non-movement gaining worldwide momentum, whose non-ideologies have been performed in the Bronx, Berlin, Loisaida and Puerto Rico. ALBERT FLYNN DESILVER has recently begun his tenure as Marin County's very first poet laureate. He is the author, most recently of Letters to Early Street (La Alameda Press, 2007), and Walking Tooth & Cloud (French Connection Press, 2007). Andrei Codrescu has said about Letters to Early Street:"This is one of our poets and we stand behind him (or to his side) in any fight, physical or literary, he might be involved in. Except maybe the situation he describes thus: 'A stuffed moose has just capsized in my bed.'" Albert has published more than one hundred poems in literary journals worldwide including Zyzzyva, New American Writing, Jubilat, Jacket (Australia), Poetry Kanto (Japan), Van Gogh's Ear (France), Hanging Loose, Exquisite Corpse, and many others. Some of his letters in correspondence with the poet Paul Hoover will be featured in the new book Letters to Poets: Conversations about Poetics, Politics, and Community (Saturnalia Books, 2008). Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. There's no better time to join SPT! Check out: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/supporters.htm Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of the Arts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin). Directions & map: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/directions.htm We'll see you Fridays! _______________________________ Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org www.smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:16:26 -0700 Reply-To: ndm_g@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andy Gricevich Subject: call for cover art--CANNOT EXIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Folks, Andy Gricevich here, writing from Madison, Wisconsin. I publish CANNOT EXIST, a little quarterly print poetry magazine. For the fourth issue of the magazine, I'm trying to get 50 artists (whether they habitually think of themselves as artists or occassionally produce interesting things by accident--or anywhere else along the spectrum) to contribute works that will each grace a single copy of the magazine. These can be paintings, drawings, prints, visual text pieces, photos, very thin sculptures, pages for pop-up books, collages--you name it. An individual artist is welcome to contribute more than one work. My ideal is to have a significant number of these covers be originals (i.e., not copies), so that someone who buys the magazine gets a unique artwork with it. Details (written quickly--I'm madly preparing to hit the road for a week) are at http://cannotexist.blogspot.com If you're interested, or have questions, write to me at cantexist@gmail.com. And feel free to forward this to others who you think might be interested, and who you think would make a good cover. Submissions of poetry are still open for issue 4 as well, and will remain so until the end of the month, or maybe just after if things keep pouring in. And the first three issues are still available, and still really, really good. all the best to all of you, Andy G. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:51:49 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Re: Small Publisher's Fair October 24 &25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We'll all be there! This has become one of the 'must attend' annual events in England and we're delighted that Kyle of Cuneiform is our featured press this year with Charles Alexander of Chax Press coming in at the nth hour to join Kyle and add to the merriment. And its free - no squids, dollars, shekels just bring your lovely selves. (Unless you want to buy lots of the goodies on sale in which case bring your negative equity and increase it!.) G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Schlesinger" To: Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:27 AM Subject: Small Publisher's Fair October 24 &25 > I'll be in London for the Small Publisher's Fair at the Conway Hall, Red > Lion Square October 24th and 25th. If you're there, please drop by the > Cuneiform Press table and say hello. More information, including the > schedule for the readings on Saturday can be found at: > http://www.rgap.co.uk/spf.php > > Cheers, > > Kyle > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:35:39 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Raworth in Maine Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tom Raworth reads at Bates College in the Skelton Lounge (Chase Hall) Monday, 20 October at 4:15 Free and open all For more info: jskinner@bates.edu 207-666-3479 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 05:23:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: { brad brace } Subject: Cash Crop Comments: cc: webartery , fluxlist@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [a progression of roll-over imagery] http://bbrace.net/cc/fd2.html /:b ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 05:43:18 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Jordan Stempleman & Kathleen Rooney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out gorgeous stuff on PFS Post from Jordan Stempleman and Kathleen Ro= oney/Elisa Gabbert: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 Enjoy! =A0 =A0 Books! "When You Bit..." http://www.lulu.com/content/3100247 "Opera Bufa" http://www.lulu.com/content/1137210 =A0=0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!= ?=0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp= ://mail.yahoo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Baldwin Subject: e-poetry 2009 cfp (dec. 1 deadline) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Forwarded cfp. Apologies for cross-posting. Please forward to anyone you think will be interested in attending. *CALL FOR PAPERS AND WORKS* On behalf of the scientific committee and Prof. Loss Glazier, President of the E-poetry Festival, I am glad to inform you about the 5th edition of the E-Poetry Festival, which will take place in *Barcelona in 2009 (May 24th-27th)* at the Universitat Obertat de Catalunya (UOC) hosted by the Hermeneia Research Group. E-Poetry is both a conference and a festival. The festival is the most significant digital literary gathering in the field. Authors and researchers worldwide meet and present their researches and works. This will permit researchers to present their latest research and artists to premier their newest works. A selection of the papers will be published after the conference following the peer review system and we will also like to publish proceedings of the conference. Artistic events will take place at key Barcelona venues such as the Barcelona Center for Contemporary Culture (CCCB: http://www.cccb.org/en/ ), providing authors the opportunity to present their works to a public curious about new literary and artistic trends employing technology and communication during the Setmana de la Poesia, that is also sharing a part of our artistic program. *Katherine Hayles (Duke), Roberto Simanowski (Brown University) and Jean Clément (Université Paris 8) have already accepted to be key-note speakers.* The UOC's research group Hermeneia with the collaboration of Electronic Poetry Center (University of Buffalo) and the Laboratoire Paragraph (Univ. Paris VIII) will organize the event. You are invited to submit original papers (not presented in other conferences) and works for the Conference & the Festival. Please do not hesitate in contacting us for any further information you may require. *CALL FOR PAPERS* Paper topics: - Close readings of specific works of e-poetry. - Discussing the terminology: ontologies and definitions of e-poetry and e-lit forms: a historic approach to e-poetry. - Relations between e-poetry and other literary and artistic forms and movements. - Translating e-poetry - Recording, presenting, archiving and preserving e-poetry. Devices, modalities and writing tools. - Teaching e-poetry: experiences, results and goals. Abstracts should be in English. Presentations of papers should last no longer than 20 minutes and should be original. Researchers and scholars should send an abstract of approximately 500 words before December 1st to hermeneia@uoc.edu *CALL FOR WORKS* Authors wishing to present works of e-poetry should submit the following before December 1st: 1) A 500 word abstract describing the work, how the author intends to present it, and any technical requirements (presentation should not exceed 20 minutes). The title of the work and all authors should be clearly identified. The abstract should be sent to hermeneia@uoc.edu 2) If the work is published online, the URL at which it is located should be included in the abstract. 3) If the work is a non-web application, is published in other media than the web, or is performance-dependent, three copies of a CD-ROM or DVD including the work or video documentation of the work should be sent before December 1st to: Laura Borràs Castanyer, Professor Languages and Cultures Studies Universitat Oberta de Catalunya Av. Tibidabo 39-43 08035 Barcelona *CALENDAR* The deadline for abstracts and works is December 1st. After the reviewing process, a response will be given after Christmas. Final papers must be submitted by 31st March for translation and proceedings. A specific website for with further information will be actualized at the Hermeneia site: www.hermeneia.net (with language selection option). *SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE* Philippe Bootz (Univ. Paris 8) Sandy Baldwin (West Virginia Univ.) Giselle Beiguelman (Catholic University of São Paulo) John Cayley (Brown University) Rita Raley (UC Sta. Barbara) Rui Torres (Fernando Pessoa University) Janez Strehovec (Univ. Ljubljana) Susana Pajares Tosca (IT University of Copenhagen) Joan Elies Adell (UOC) Laura Borràs Castanyer (UOC) Giovanna di Rosario (UOC) Carles Lindín (UOC) *ARTISTIC COMMITTEE* Loss Pequeño Glazier María Mencía Wilton Azevedo Philippe Bootz Patrick Burgaud Friedrich Block Philippe Castellain Jason Nelson Joerg Piringer Joan Elies Adell Laura Borràs Castanyer *CONTACT INFO* Submission of abstracts and proposals should go to: hermeneia@uoc.edu . Questions about the seminar should be directed whether to hermeneia@uoc.edu or to Laura Borràs: lborras@uoc.edu -- ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:40:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Litrerary Buffalo Newsletter 10.20.08-10.26.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII LITERARY BUFFALO 10.20.08-10.26.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 10.20.08 Wordflight Pamela Plummer and Paula Wachowiak Poetry Reading Monday, October 20, 7:00 PM Crane Library, 633 Elmwood Ave =7C Upstairs 10.21.08 Canisius Contemporary Writers Series Calvin Trillin Lecture Tuesday, October 21, 7:00 PM Montante Cultural Center, Canisius College 10.23.08 The Write Thing at Medaille College Christopher Schmidt Poetry Reading Thursday, October 23, 7:00 PM Library at Huber, Medaille College, 18 Agassiz Cir. & Talking Leaves...Books/Jewish Community Book Fair Ary Stillman: From Impressionism to Abstract Expressionism Lecture Thursday, October 23, 7:30 PM Jewish Community Center of Greater Buffalo Benderson Building, 2640 North Forest Road, Getzville 10.24.08 Babel EXTRA=21 Sri Lanka Night at the International Institute An evening of Sri Lankan Food, Music, Dance, Culture In Celebration of Michael Ondaatje?s Babel Event Friday, October 24, 6:30 p.m. International Institute of Buffalo, 864 Delaware Avenue & Poetics Plus =40 UB Erica Hunt Poetry Reading Friday, October 24, 8:00 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, 453 Porter Ave. 10.25.08 Talking Leaves...Books/Just Buffalo Children's Book Author Joy Morgan Day Reading and signing for: Agate Saturday, October 25, 1 p.m. Talking Leaves?Books, 3158 Main St. & BABEL Extra=21 Film Screening: The English Patient Saturday, October 25, 2 p.m. Crane Branch Library, 633 Elmwood Avenue 10.26.08 Buffalo and Erie County Library, Central Douglas Manson and Paul White Poetry Reading Sunday, October 26, 3:00 PM Central Library, 1 Lafayette Square ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS? WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 08:46:12 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nov 5: On the Road in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Fiction Writing Department at Columbia College Chicago is hosting a MARATHON READING of On The Road on Wednesday, November 5th from 9 a.m. to 9= p.m. with local writers and artists at the Conaway Center, 1104 South Waba= sh (1st floor). Through November 26th, the Gallery at Columbia Book & Paper Center is offer= ing visitors the rare opportunity to see the original draft of On the Road,= containing Kerouac=E2=80=99s own edits in pencil. This manuscript is a co= ntinuous scroll of semi-translucent paper, 120 feet long by 9 inches wide, = that Kerouac created to feed through his typewriter without interruption. = It was produced by Kerouac in a three-week writing marathon in April 1951.= =20 Gallery hours have been extended for the Jack Kerouac: On the Road exhibiti= on -- Monday-Friday, 12 - 7pm and Saturday-Sunday, 12 - 5pm. The Gallery i= s located at 1104 South Wabash (2nd floor). It is free and open to the pub= lic. =20 http://www.colum.edu/Book_and_Paper/Gallery/index.php =0A=0A__________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?= =0ATired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around =0Ahttp:= //mail.yahoo.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:33:28 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: !!!Tom Raworth in MN: Save the Date: November 10!!! Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, Theory and Writing , Jeff Hansen , john colburn , Sun Yung Shin , beato@att.net, Mark Nowak , Rachel Moritz , Erik Belgum , Eric Lorberer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Monday November 10 *eNow! presents Tom Raworth* 2:30 pm, Lind Hall 207A University of Minnesota Minneapolis Poet, publisher, and translator since the late Fifties, the English writer has published over 40 books of poetry and numerous works of prose. He is also a visual artist, and has collaborated with painters, photographers, musicians, and book artists. Influenced by the Black Mountain and New York School poets, he became a major figure in the experimental British Poetry Revival in the Sixties and Seventies. Among his recent books are /Caller and Other Pieces/ (Edge) and /Landscaping the Future/ (Porto dei Santi). ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:22:05 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Brian Cassidy, Bookseller ABAA" Subject: Re: Bukowski In-Reply-To: <20081019.124012.2776.20.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >> My wife Jean Baird asked me the following question: >> >> I need to find the Bukowski archive. Do you think someone on the >> SUNY >> listserve might know where it is? The largest institutional holdings of Bukowski are at the U. of S. CA (http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/arc/findingaids/bukowski/inventory.html), Arizona State (http://knet.asu.edu/archives/?getObject=ualib:117308) and UC Santa Monica. None of these, however, are CB's official "archive." It appears he neither made arrangements to place his papers with any institution, nor were they brought to market after his death. My guess is they remain with his widow. Hope this helps. Best, Brian Cassidy brian cassidy, bookseller shop @ 471 wave st. monterey ca mail: po box 8636 monterey ca 93943 (831) 656-9264 / 233-4780 (c/sms) books@briancassidy.net http://www.briancassidy.net Member: ABAA/ILAB, IOBA, ABA, NCIBA ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Colombian 'Biblioburro' has 4,800 books and 10 legs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Colombian 'Biblioburro' has 4,800 books and 10 legs http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/20/america/20burro.php?page=1 LA GLORIA, Colombia: In a ritual repeated nearly every weekend for the past decade here in Colombia's war-weary Caribbean hinterlands, Luis Soriano gathered his two donkeys, Alfa and Beto, in front of his home on a recent Saturday afternoon. Sweating already under the unforgiving sun, he strapped pouches with the word "Biblioburro" painted in blue letters to the donkeys' backs and loaded them with an eclectic cargo of books destined for people living in the small villages beyond. His choices included "Anaconda," the animal fable by the Uruguayan writer Horacio Quiroga that evokes Kipling's "Jungle Book"; some Time-Life picture books (on Scandinavia, Japan and the Antilles); and the "Dictionary of the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language." "I started out with 70 books, and now I have a collection of more than 4,800," said Soriano, 36, a primary school teacher who lives in a small house here with his wife and three children, with books piled to the ceilings. (more online) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 22:50:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?X-MAC-ROMAN?Q?Lauren_Dixon?= Subject: Superficial Flesh Vol. 3! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-mac-roman" *Superficial Flesh*--all pulsating and bloody and scraping along the &= ;#10;shadows of the DFW Metroplex-- has just launched its fall issue, and= you can check it out in print or on our website: http://www.supe= rficialflesh.com. We have a free subscription database = upon which you must register, and as soon as you've done that, yo= u will have full access to our current issue as well as our archi= ve of issues (which features our Fall 2007 and Summer 2004 issues= ). The print issue of our Fall 2008 issue will be available beginning&= ;#10;October 18, and can be ordered via the "Order Info" link on our webs= ite. Subscriptions are $15, single issues $10 (unless you're a st= arving artist--then we'll strike a bargain). Thi= s issue features work by Gabriel DeCrease, Kelly Davio, Karen Gre= enbaum-Maya, and art by Alan Tolleson. If you like what = you see, please don't hesitate to submit for our Spring issue. Ou= r reading period for that will begin Nov. 1. I hope you'= ll check out the journal, and let me know what you think! = 0; Sincerely, Lauren Dixon, Editor Superficial Fl= esh submission@superficialflesh.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lauren Dixon Subject: Superficial Flesh Vol. 3 Out Now! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed *Superficial Flesh*--all pulsating and bloody and scraping along the shadows of the DFW Metroplex-- has just launched its fall issue, and you can check it out in print or on our website: http:// www.superficialflesh.com. We have a free subscription database upon which you must register, and as soon as you've done that, you will have full access to our current issue as well as our archive of issues (which features our Fall 2007 and Summer 2004 issues). The print issue of our Fall 2008 issue is also now available and can be ordered via the "Order Info" link on our website. Subscriptions are $15, single issues $10 (unless you're a starving artist--then we'll strike a bargain). This issue features work by new writers Gabriel DeCrease, Kelly Davio, Karen Greenbaum-Maya, and art by Alan Tolleson, and we're also featuring a new review section. If you like what you see, please don't hesitate to submit for our Spring issue. Our reading period for that will begin Nov. 1. I hope you'll check out the journal, and let me know what you think! Sincerely, Lauren Dixon, Editor Superficial Flesh submission@superficialflesh.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kate Soto Subject: Donald Revell at the University of Chicago this Thursday and Friday Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Donald Revell Sponsored by Poem Present Reading from his work. October 23, 4:30 PM Classics 110 1010 E. 59th St., Chicago, IL 60637 Reception to follow. Discussion on Poetics: "White Leaves in Heaven's Tree" October 24, 1:00 PM Harper 148 1116 E. 59th St., Chicago, IL 60637 Reception to follow. Donald Revell is the author of ten collections of poetry, most =20 recently of A Thief of Strings (2007) and Pennyweight Windows: New & =20 Selected Poems (2005), both from Alice James Books. Winner of the 2004 =20= Lenore Marshall Award and two-time winner of the PEN Center USA Award =20= in poetry, Revell has also received the Gertrude Stein Award, two =20 Shestack Prizes, two Pushcart Prizes and fellowships from the NEA as =20 well as from the Ingram Merrill and Guggenheim Foundations. He is also =20= the author of three volumes of translation: Rimbaud=92s A Season in Hell = =20 (Omnidawn, 2007), Apollinaire=92s Alcools (Wesleyan, 1995) and The Self-=20= Dismembered Man: Selected Later Poems of Guillaume Apollinaire =20 (Wesleyan, 2004). Revell=92s critical writings include Invisible Green: =20= Selected Prose (Omnidawn, 2005) and The Art of Attention: A Poet=92s Eye = =20 (Graywolf, 2007). He is a Professor of English and Creative Writing at =20= UNLV. If you need assistance to participate in this event, please contact =20 773/834-8524. Visit poempresent.uchicago.edu for more details about the reading and =20= lecture series. Kate Soto Coordinator The Committee on Creative Writing The Program in Poetry and Poetics University of Chicago Walker Museum 411 // 773.834.8524 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:18:29 -0700 Reply-To: alexdickow9@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Caramboles Book Release In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends and Fellow Poets, My first full-length book, Caramboles, is now available! The book is a bili= ngual French/English poetry collection: you can find links to reviews and a= book presentation after this message.=20 If you live in France, you can find it in Parisian bookstores such as Tscha= nn, Gibert Joseph or the Fnac des Halles. To save on shipping, you can also= order it in the US, by telephone or email from BookPeople of Moscow, Idaho= : http://www.bookpeople.net/OrderForm.htm=20 Alternatively, you can order it from the following websites: http://www.placedeslibraires.fr/dlivre.php?ALIS=3D14b9989859b9651369b4f5ba3= bafe203&gencod=3D9782915978377&rid=3D11 http://www.lelibraire.com/din/tit.php?Id=3D60090 http://livre.fnac.com/a2457591/Alexander-Dickow-Caramboles?Mn=3D-1&Mu=3D-13= &Ra=3D-1&To=3D0&Nu=3D2&Fr=3D0 If you have difficulty ordering the book, please get in touch with me. Thanks for your time, attention and support, and feel free to tell me about= your reading experience!=20 Amicalement, Alexander Dickow alexdickow9@yahoo.com REVIEWS: Jean-Claude Pinson - English translation of the review available at http://= www.alexdickow.net/blog/article/115/caramboles-reviewed-on-sitaudis-compte-= rendu-de-caramboles-sur-sitaudis - French original at http://www.sitaudis.com/Parutions/caramboles-d-alexand= er-dickow.php Tristan Hord=C3=A9 - Review in French at http://poezibao.typepad.com/poezib= ao/2008/09/caramboles-de-a.html PRESENTATION: Argol Editions www.argol-editions.fr Alexander Dickow Caramboles =E2=80=9CL=E2=80=99Estran=E2=80=9D Collection ISBN : 978-2-915978-37-7 134 pages Price : 17 =E2=82=AC =E2=80=9CThe most cockeyed, twitching, wobbliest gait eventually becomes so= ungainly, so weirdly lopsided that it dances. This book would rather linge= r in the confines, if it can, wherever the one becomes the other. I assault= the French language, my second; I clutter it with l=E2=80=99on-lit and qu= =E2=80=99on-con, unthinkable infractions, maim it with impossible malaprops= . I torment and overthrow my other second language, English; I embrace ever= y solecism, bludgeon with blunders every ear within eyeshot; I merrily redu= ce the English language to a frenzied shuffle. Or else I unhinge language, = dislocate it, as though I were a gnome in a museum tilting picture-frames f= or a good laugh, just enough to discompose the patrons. Aficionados object;= campaigns are launched against the crooked: the virtuous demand redress.= =E2=80=9D A.D. Alexander Dickow, an American poet and translator, was born in 1979. He liv= es in New Jersey. A student of French literature, he travelled to France in= 2003-2004 to study in Nantes, where he completed a French degree in litera= ture. He is currently pursuing dissertation research devoted to 20th-Centur= y French poetry. He has published poems in French and American journals. Ca= ramboles is his first book. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:46:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene=20 This blog consists of reviews, interviews, news, etc...from the world of = the=20 Boston area small press and poetry scene and beyond. Regular contributors= =20 are reviewers for the "Ibbetson Update," such as: Hugh Fox, Lo Galluccio,= =20 Irene Koronas, Michael Todd Steffen,, Richard Wilhelm, Steve Glines, Mign= on=20 Ariel King, Mike Amado, and Pam Rosenblatt. founder Doug Holder:=20 dougholder@post.harvard.edu. * B A S P P S is listed in the New Pages Ind= ex=20 of Alternative Literary Blogs. http://dougholder.blogspot.com Monday, October 20, 2008 How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand =20 How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand By Steve Glines * Steve Glines is the book designer for the Ibbetson Street Press of=20 Somerville, Mass. When I was about ten my grandfather gave me a book he had been saving=20 just for me. It was my first book. I don=92t remember the title or conten= t but it=20 was a beautiful book, my own book. It had a dust jacket that my grandfath= er=20 removed and tossed aside to reveal a soft brown leather book with the tit= le=20 and author embossed in 18 carrot gold on the cover and spine. Both the co= ver=20 and spine had been tooled with a beautiful border. I thought the spine=20= especially beautiful. The hide had been glued to a form of cardboard made= of=20 cotton fibers and the endpapers of the book itself were glued to the spin= e=20 with the glue joint covered over with a beautiful hand made gold and gree= n=20 marbled paper. The body of the book had been printed by letterpress in gi= ant=20 16 page signatures then sewn into a cloth backing with a Smyth Sewing=20 machine. The first signature of the book, only 4 pages, had been printed = by=20 engraving and contained the title page with a florid design together with= a=20 portrait of the author reminiscent of those found on currency. There was = a=20 phantom signature of tissue paper between each of the engraved pages to=20= protect the engravings.=20 You could tell the book had not been opened and read because the signatur= es=20 had not been cut. The binding process included folding and gathering the=20= signatures then sewing them into the backing but the resulting signatures= =20 were not trimmed as they are today. My grandfather ceremoniously handed=20= me his paper cutter and instructed me to cut the signatures firmly but ge= ntly.=20 For him learning how to properly open a book was a sacred right of passag= e.=20 As I slowly sliced the first signature open I could feel the individual c= otton=20 fibers stretch then break as I drew the dull knife upwards. By the time I= had=20 cut the last signature the book had become mine. I would be the first per= son=20 to set eyes on the printed page since they had come off the press. There = was=20 magic in that.=20 When I opened the book and looked at the first page in the first signatur= e I=20 could see the slightly uneven imprint of the type in the soft textured pa= per.=20 Even without a magnifying glass I could see the needle edge of the types=20= serifs where it cut into the paper carrying with it the carbon black fill= ed ink. It=20 was beautiful.=20 Books were made this way for several hundred years. Typesetting was a=20 tedious, expensive and challenging work when done by hand and dangerous=20= when done by a linotype machine that cast individual lines or slugs of me= tal=20 type from negatively shaped type masters and hot molten lead. These slugs= =20 were then printed for proofing on small presses called galley presses. Wh= en all=20 was well the slugs were then placed in a large 2 x 4 page panel for print= ing.=20 Two of these were required to print one sixteen page signature. It was a = slow=20 tedious labor intensive process.=20 Before about 1970 fine, hardbound books were only printed by letterpress.= I=20 am old enough to remember when the change occurred. Offset printing was=20= considered cheep and not worthy of a fine printed book. By 1980 all=20 hardbound books were printed by offset lithography.=20 Offset lithography printing uses a flat metal or plastic sheet called a p= late that=20 has been photographically prepared so that ink sticks to the image area a= nd is=20 rejected elsewhere. Ink is transferred from the plate to a roller that pr= esses=20 into ink into the paper. One of the drawbacks to offset lithography is th= at the=20 offset plate cannot carry as much ink to the paper or press as hard as a=20= letterpress. Because of this the paper used in offset printing must be ve= ry flat=20 and without the =93tooth=94 that characterizes the =93fine=94 papers used= in=20 letterpress. When the thin film of ink on an offset roller is pressed aga= inst the=20 very flat paper, fine lines, dots and type serifs tend to spread so serif= type=20 faces printed by offset tend to look a little muddy when compared to iden= tical=20 type printed by letterpress. This feature of offset printing lead directl= y to an=20 explosion in the use of san-serif type faces like Helvetica, Universe and= others=20 in book design. One good feature of offset printing is the ability to pri= nt=20 photographs with a resolution many times greater than letterpress offers.= =20 In older books photographs were often printed individually then glued=20 or =93tipped=94 into the book or entire signatures of photographs or draw= ings were=20 printed by etching presses then sewn into the book. The maximum resolutio= n=20 of a letterpress was about 45 dots per inch using newsprint and as much a= s=20 85 dots per inch using paper specially prepared for the purpose. This pap= er=20 was often hard and brittle from the clay used to prepare the paper to tak= e a=20 very sharp image. The harder and flatter the surface the sharper the dots= =20 could be. Etching presses or rotogravure, are capable of impressions of u= p to=20 200 dots per inch but this process is very expensive and gravure doesn=92= t print=20 type very well at all. The colorful magazines distributed with Sunday=20 Newspapers were always printed by rotogravure. That was then; today both=20= newspapers and the colorful magazines they contain on Sunday are printed = by=20 offset. Because offset printing was an inexpensive way to print both type= and=20 art on the same page it became very popular with textbook publishers. It=20= didn=92t take long for paperback publishers to switch to offset followed = quickly=20 by traditional publishers.=20 Not only did the switch to offset represent a revolution in printing at t= he same=20 time there was a revolution in typesetting. Letterpress printing was a pa= rt the=20 old industrial revolution characterized by big dirty machines, steam engi= ne=20 technology. Typesetting was a blue-collar profession conducted in the bow= ls=20 of a factory. Type was literally hot as the liquid lead flowed down open=20= channels to form the slug in a linotype machine. In the late 1960=92s =93= cold type=94=20 became popular. Early =93cold type=94 systems came from IBM Selectric =99= =20 Typewriters modified to print real typographers=92 fonts onto specially p= repared=20 paper and Compugraphic =99 and other brands of machines that composed typ= e=20 onto photographic paper. These galleys would then be used to =93paste-up=94= a=20 dummy of the publication which then was then used to photographically=20 create an offset plate.=20 Today, of course, hot type and paste-up is a thing of the past because of= the=20 multitude of personal computer programs that can electronically paste-up,= =20 proof the image on ink jet or laser printers and electronically create an= offset=20 plate. Xerox, Hewlett Packard and Kodak all pioneered in the use of ink j= et and=20 laser as =93page-proof printers=94 with a quality image that rivaled or b= ettered=20 that produced by an offset press.=20 The best offset printers can print images with a resolution of 300 dots p= er=20 inch at a rate measuring in the thousands of impressions per minute but a= n=20 offset pressman might have to print as many as 50 sheets to get the inkin= g on=20 a plate exactly right before turning up the press. Because of the tuning=20= required an offset job is cheaper than a proofing press only of the print= run=20 exceeds many hundred or thousands of impressions. For many years book=20 publishing has been constrained by the economies of scale in offset print= ing.=20 For example, printing a 200 page paperback book might cost as much as=20 $2000 to set up and 2 cents per impression. Printing and binding 100 copi= es=20 could cost $35 or more per book but in quantities of 50,000 the cost fall= s into=20 the range of pennies per book.=20 Modern proofing presses, for example Hewlett Packard=92s Indigo series of= =20 industrial laser printers, are capable of printing an 11=94 by 17=94 imag= es in full=20 color with a resolution of 1200 dots per inch at the rate of up to 1000 p= ages=20 per minute. The quality of the image produced by these printers is superi= or to=20 almost all offset printing but cost considerably more than offset at its = optimum=20 but considerably less than offset in very small quantities. With the=20 introduction of home, commercial and industrial laser printers =93printin= g on=20 demand=94 was born and =93publishing on demand=94 soon after.=20 Publishers face two dilemmas: First, Can they sell enough books to make=20= publishing worthwhile? Second, how can publishers keep their back list al= ive=20 without having to print and stock uneconomical quantities of books? For m= ost=20 mainstream publishers pre- and post-publication costs dictate an initial = print=20 run of many thousands of books. These same economics prohibit the=20 publication of books with potentially smaller audiances and prohibit alto= gether=20 books on the backlist that could have long but active tails. A book by a = major=20 publisher that might sell 100 =96 300 books a year in perpetuity is quick= ly marked=20 out of print.=20 =93Publishing on demand,=94 or POD, is a technology that solves the probl= em of=20 small press runs. POD marries laser proofing technology with conventional= =20 bindery equipment to create a book production system that is as efficient= at=20 printing a one-of book as it is 2,000 books. Of course the unit cost is m= uch,=20 much higher and the production rate much lower than offset but back liste= d=20 books that once would have gone out of print can be quickly and effective= ly=20 produced by a Lulu or Lightning press one at a time at a cost point=20 guaranteed to earn the publisher a profit.=20 To a small to medium sized publisher POD is a revolution. Not only does t= he=20 use of POD eliminate an investment in inventory but the quality of public= ation=20 is greater or equal to that produced by offset. The simple elimination of= large=20 inventories allows smaller publishers to publish more books than they oth= erwise=20 could and the availability of POD published works guarantees that no book= will=20 ever go out of print. The agility of POD will almost guarantee that new a= nd=20 exciting works will flow to those publishers who using POD, will be able = to=20 respond quickly and decisively to the market. By reducing the cost to mar= ket=20 while maintaining expected quality will insure the publisher using POD wi= ll have=20 an advantage over their more conventional competition.=20 Posted by Doug at 12:39 PM 0 comments=20=20=20 Labels: Glines on Books =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:08:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Small Publisher's Fair October 24 &25 In-Reply-To: <009701c9324e$1f37ac70$8706edc1@user4a6p3c2av0> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Yes, at the nth hour! Thanks, Geraldine. For those who are in London, I'll also be giving a lecture on what I've been doing for the last 24 years or so with Chax Press, at the Birkbeck Research Centre, Univ. of London, 7:30pm on Oct. 29. More details at http://www.bbk.ac.uk/cprc/news/talkscharlesalexander I'll also be reading in the Crossing The Line reading series in London on Nov. 6. Please contact Jeff Hilson for details about that. J.Hilson@roehampton.ac.uk On Nov. 5 I'll be lecturing at the Univ. of Sussex. Please contact Daniel Kane for details: djk5474@gmail.com From the night of Oct. 30, until Nov. 3 or 4, I'll be hanging out at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth. If anybody around there is on this list and wants to get together, please send me an email. During the trip away from Tucson, though, I may have spotty reception/ checking of email, at best. I look forward to meeting lots of people in the UK, as well as seeing old friends. I'll be back in Tucson on Nov. 8, though perhaps jetlagged until Nov. 9. best wishes, Charles charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com 411 N 7th ave, suite 103 tucson arizona 85705 520 620 1626 On Oct 19, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Geraldine Monk wrote: > We'll all be there! This has become one of the 'must attend' > annual events > in England and we're delighted that Kyle of Cuneiform is our > featured press > this year with Charles Alexander of Chax Press coming in at the nth > hour to > join Kyle and add to the merriment. > > And its free - no squids, dollars, shekels just bring your lovely > selves. > (Unless you want to buy lots of the goodies on sale in which case > bring your > negative equity and increase it!.) > > G. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Schlesinger" > > To: > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:27 AM > Subject: Small Publisher's Fair October 24 &25 > > >> I'll be in London for the Small Publisher's Fair at the Conway >> Hall, Red >> Lion Square October 24th and 25th. If you're there, please drop by >> the >> Cuneiform Press table and say hello. More information, including the >> schedule for the readings on Saturday can be found at: >> http://www.rgap.co.uk/spf.php >> >> Cheers, >> >> Kyle >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:43:15 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Country Valley Subject: Another new title from Country Valley Press MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Now available: SCAFFOLD by Joel Chace Stapled chapbook, $10 plus $3 s/h "While physicists at the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, Switzerland, seek to discover the mechanism by which energy acquires mass, Chace's Scaffold, with its words hung in space like particulates of a universe trembling at the threshold of creation, perpetually hovering between absence and presence, initiates an inquiry into the dynamics of speech. How do words acquire mass? Weight? Dimension? Density? Chace pins it down to the "lip's loom." This is a true radium of the word." --John Olson "Scaffold, so aptly titled, offers readers an arrangement on which to climb up and over and around its seen/read/heard words in a pleasurably unnerving way=97for we start out, at least, reading/climbing down, not up=97and life is like that, all evidence to the contrary. I imagine even falling off this Scaffold would be a wholly fascinating experience." Diane Wald Please order online at http://web.mac.com/countryvalley Mark Kuniya Country Valley Press =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:25:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: Katy Henricksen on READY TO EAT INDIVIDUAL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Katy Henricksen's marvelous in-depth review of Frank Sherlock and Brett Evans's READY TO EAT INDIVIDUAL is now available for OXFORD AMERICAN MAGAZINE online: http://www.oxfordamericanmag.com/content.cfm?ArticleID=396&Entry=Extras If you haven't yet ordered a copy of the book WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR, you can order it here: http://www.lavenderink.org/readytoeat/ CAConrad http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:04:20 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jack Kimball Subject: Faux Chaps Party this Friday Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed If you're in or near NYC I hope you can come to the Faux Chaps Party this Friday, Oct. 24 6:30 Jimmy's No. 43, 43 E. 7th St. (b. 2nd & 3rd Ave., nearer 2nd Ave.) Celebrating the publication of six new books. The Pill Book =97 Jeni "Truck" Olin Orizaba =97 Stacy Szymaszek Odes =97 Alan Davies Pathologies =97 Jack Kimball (Soma)tic Midge =97 CAConrad Subsistence Equipment =97 Brenda Iijima Short readings by the authors. Jimmy's No. 43 is an informal brewpub with a low-key, neighborhood feel. No cover. Organic snacks.=20= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: susan maurer Subject: Raw Poems published by Gold Wake Press Susan Maurer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am pleased to have entered the 21st. century with the publication of an e= -chap Raw Poems by Gold Wake Press. Just go to Gold Wake Press and print it= out for free. Susan Maurer _________________________________________________________________ Want to read Hotmail messages in Outlook? The Wordsmiths show you how. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/wedowindowslive.spaces.live.com-Blog-cn= s!20EE04FBC541789!167.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_092008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:42:52 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: New Interview w Eleni Sikelianos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii New Interview with Eleni Sikelianos in Manhattan on Oct. 15th about her recent book, THE BODY CLOCK -----> http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Sikelianos.html http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Sikelianos.html Enjoy, Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 07:30:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dawn Sueoka Subject: FF>> Press call for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline FF>> Press is currently seeking flash fiction submissions for our second volume, due out in the summer of 2009. Our first collection included pieces from Bobbie Louise Hawkins, Lihn Dinh, Barbara Henning, Andrew Wille, and many emerging new voices. We are looking for unpublished flash fiction that runs less than 1,000 words, with a special place in our hearts for the 400-700 word range. Stories should discover something brief and intimate in a very short space. Is it entertaining/thoughtful/edgy/poignant? Does it deliver in under 1000 words? Then we want it. Submission Guidelines: Send up to three of your error-free, previously unpublished flash pieces, under 1000 words, double-spaced in 12-pt Times New Roman or Courier, as a Word or RTF.doc, to editorff@gmail.com. Please include your name,address, telephone number, email address and word count on the first page of your submission. Submissions will be accepted until December 31, 2008 at midnight. We will contact everyone who has submitted by February 15th, 2009. If we publish your story, you will receive two complimentary copies of the book. Simultaneous submissions are welcome, but please notify us immediately if your piece has been accepted elsewhere. We usually assume First North American Rights to work published in our annual, after which all rights revert to the author. Our first volume, *fast forward*,* *can be found at bookstores around the country including Tattered Cover, Powell Books, and City Lights, and is also available for purchase from amazon.com. Learn more at our website www.fastforwardpress.org. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:24:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Siegell Subject: SATURDAY in PHILLY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" DANIEL SCHALL, IAN WOLF and PAUL SIEGELL Saturday, Oct 25th @ 2pm=20 The Independence Branch of the Free Library of Philadelphia=20 (18 South 7th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19106) DETAILS: http://www.libraryfriends.info/board/?p=3D135 enjoy the rest of the week ahead, paul> http://paulsiegell.blogspot.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:53:25 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: Open Mic Radio Tuesday Night 8pm PST Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dear All, Tonight is open mic radio night for anyone with access to the internet, with another serving of the weekly Listen & Be Heard Radio Hour. My featured guest tonight will Jeannette McCree-Goudeau. Owner of the McCree-Goudeau gallery in Vallejo, CA, she is currently exhibiting photographs by Tony Gleaton, among other artists, on the theme of "Africa's Legacy in Mexico." There will be a closing reception for the exhibition this coming Thursday. Also featured will be phone calls from poets, who are welcome to share a poem with the Listen & Be Heard audience. Arts announcements, and/or your thoughts about the state of the arts, are also welcome. As usual, I will also have some announcements of arts opportunities and events as time permits. All the pertinent information follows. Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims When: Tuesdays, 8-9pm Pacific Coast Time. Where: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard/2008/10/22/LBH- Radio-Hour-Oct-21 Call in Number: 718-506-1481 More information about "Africa's Legacy in Mexico." http://listenandbeheard.net/artsnews/2008/10/21/africas-legacy-in-mexico Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Second Life Installation Phenomenology (please post) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Second Life Installation Phenomenology The Second Life show at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 continues to change; since it's complex and interactive, it makes sense for you to visit it. The images and videos I put up almost daily can present one or another new (static or dynamic) topographic feature, but only in an isolated and framed configuration; one doesn't get a sense of the roil or negotiated pathways of the spaces which are always under construction. At one point symmetries dominated, as well as moire patterns related to early cinema; at another, flat black areas created a problematic of depth that remained unresolved. At times a machine-structure (gears, wheels, cams) appeared out of partial assemblages; at best, these were metaphors, doing nothing in the virtual or the real. In the exhibition, objects tend to ignore one another unless given physical weight; few objects have that, since those that do tend to tumble out of the exhibition, 'out of world,' ending up in lost-and-found inventories. Now the symmetries have corroded by 'foreign' non-repetitive textures that indicate movement trajectories (it's easy to follow the movement of a flat black square for example) and block moire effects. It's as if the symmet- rical properties of objects and assemblages are falling apart. Almost every object moves vertically; some are aligned, some are harmonic, some appear independent. It's easy to fall vertically at this point, from sky objects to the exhibition hall surface, and from ground surface to the underwater environment beneath the hall. Teleport labels may or may not take you somewhere; you might end up where you started or even more en- tangled on a different level. The environment as a whole appears as shaky as the economy, and there's a parallel with bandwidth and prim quantity issues. I build and don't know who sees what; I find my own computers locked up on occasion. At this point I want to start radically modifying the installation; again I urge you to visit while it retains a semblance of its current state. As objects are given weight, they'll fall and reorganize the surface; they may well pile up without falling out of world, at least temporarily; they may provide new surfaces and cavities to negotiate. It's almost impossible to document the dynamics of this; things fall too fast for cameras to follow. When I sleep at night, spaces open up; I'm torn and brought close to death in nightmare after nightmare, some of which are set in apparently real environments that slough off into the virtual. A train begins here, the tracks connect there, leading to dilapidated and jumbled architecture. Or arousal which disseminates in the midst of prims sharp enough to slice through site and sound. From Dhananjaya: "'Rasa is that which is made enjoyable by the behaviour of the characters that gives enjoyment because the object of the drama is not to enjoy the behaviour of the characters since that belongs to the past.' (Otherwise, says the author, the specta- tor might as well himself fall into love with the heroine." And again: "The spectators enjoy at the site of characters like Arjuna and others what they themselves feel inside just as children enjoy, playing with clay elephants, the fervour that is within themselves." (From Adya Rangacharya, Drama in Sanskrit Literature, Bombay, Popular Prakashan, 1968.) Enjoyment is not enjoyment in the sense of pleasure, but inhabiting a diegetic cons- tructed through a series of coded interfaces. In the Second Life instal- lation, the strange remains strange, but one learns to negotiate complex trajectories among levels, prims, sounds, spaces, worlds; soon rasa (flavor among other meanings) emerges as one's eyes are one's avatar's eyes and one becomes comfortable with hir body. There are no identifica- tions in the Second Life show, only corners, plateaus, and circulations that permit discourse, that one might conceivably inhabit. All of these spaces, like capital, are rickety; Second Life is governed by exchange, not use value and things constantly threaten to fall apart. The only certainty is an absence of breakage and death; what is attached for the most part remains attached, no matter how far it falls, no matter how sharp and difficult, impossible, the landing. Death in Second Life is never death, but literally a passing-away; an avatar disappears more or less permanently and one might assume that something has occurred in real life parallel to this - illness or death or disinterest or bankruptcy - one never knows. The spaces in exhibition are malleable, not liquid, not liquid architec- ture so much as capable of distortion and linkage at a distance: things may well move in synchronization, even over a fairly large distance, as if Bell's theorem suddenly appeared in the large and abstract. When the space - the normative space of Second Life - fills up, it transforms the avatar within it. Boundaries are no longer fixed or even apparent. I imagine a Kristevan chora, part-objects and pre-linguistics driving the show, as if the birth of language were imminent and immanent. The birth never occurs; the chora remains at the state of the laugh or scream or orgasm or even free-fall. One is stripped down, and the images, such as they are, textur- ing the prims are often sexualized - penises, breasts, rings, faces in pain or ecstasy, posed mannequins of fossilized desire and dance. One senses an alien choreography behind everything, the world inverted in Plato's cave from virtual shadows to the watching and participating body on the damp floor. The alien is ourselves of course and the aliens are our self, chora to chiasm. Rasa is the taste of this, the taste or flavor of the enlightened audience which means the knowledgeable audience, who have already migrated past the strangeness of the exhibition towards an inhering organic that passes for flesh and tissue. I think of the space as avatar body, as avatar hirself, as chora, as womb, as phallus, as adverb. I think of rocketing through the space as the dissipation of vectors without origin and destination; one lands in the midst of circulation and circles hirself. But all of this takes time on the part of the visitor, as does the reading of signs, even the writing and writhing of signs in sky and water and within the earth itself. One has to enter the space, ascend and descend, allow oneself to be caught up in the multiplicity of worlds, even the smoke of catastrophe and catastrophic industrialization, the destruction of families, speech and phenomena which are always already in a state of withdrawal. The world comes and goes without saying; we pass away as it passes by, and even a minute after our death we no longer hear a voice, see the sun, read the next day's market. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:26:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: fwd from XCP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit XCP: Cross Cultural Poetics is please to celebrate its twentieth issue with the publication of a 180+ page anthology of contemporary writers addressing the theme upon which the journal was founded more than a decade ago. Below are just a few of the essays that appear in this anniversary issue: Kazim Ali, “The Poetics of Islam” Amiri Baraka, “Black Power in Newark” Jeff Derksen, “The Idea of Cross-Culture” Bhanu Kapil, “Notes of Failure: A Short Essay on Cross-Cultural Poetics” Barbara Jane Reyes, “On Feminism, Women of Color, Poetics, and Reticence” Rodrigo Toscano, “To Become Super-Solid” Tyrone Williams, “Problems and Promises of Actually Existing Cross Cultural Poetics” Rachel Zolf, “A Tenuous We: Writing as Not-Knowing” Others writers in this special issue include Maria Damon, Patrick Durgin, Larissa Lai, Juliana Spahr, Celina Su, Edwin Torres, Fred Wah, Rita Wong, and many others. XCP no. 20 is available as part of a four-issue subscription ($30, checks payable to “College of St. Catherine” and mailed to Mark Nowak, ed., XCP: Cross Cultural Poetics, c/o College of St. Catherine, 601 25th Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN. 55454; subscribers outside the U.S. please add $5). For questions, email the editor at . XCP no. 21/22 will be a special double issue (“South Africa: Literature and Social Movements”) that will include new writings from Dennis Brutus, Zine Magubane, Kelwyn Sole, Botsotso Jesters, Priya Narismulu, and many others. As Juan Felipe Herrera wrote about XCP in the Poetry Project Newsletter a decade ago: “Welcome to a Writer’s Manual on how to detonate the master axis of Big Brother narratives.” ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Call for Papers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Emerson Institute for Freedom and Culture is interested in receiving papers on the poetics of Frederick Turner, or poems influences by Turner and/or his poetics. Date open. Please submit papers or poems to: troycamplin@emersoninstitute.org Troy Camplin, Ph.D. President, The Emerson Institute for Freedom and Culture www.emersoninstitute.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 01:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Boog City presents Subpress Collective, with I Feel Tractor and My Invisible Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward ------------------ =20 Boog City presents =20 d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press =20 featuring Subpress Collective Tues. Oct. 28, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free ACA Galleries 529 W. 20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by Subpress co-editor Greg Fuchs =20 =20 Featuring =8A =20 the work of Steve Carey =20 the work of Brett Evans =20 Denize Lauture =20 =20 with music from =20 I Feel Tractor and=20 =20 My Invisible There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum =20 ------ **Subpress Collective http://www.durationpress.com/subpress/ =20 =B3Subpress popped off a Listserv one day and began to take shape and grow in another Listserv, specially created for it. That is, in the course of casua= l griping about how no one could get their book published, or about fellow poets growing weary while watching their manuscripts age, suggestions were made that we publish books ourselves. The discussion evolved quickly into process and finances. =B3At the moment Subpress is a dozen poets spread across the US, France and England. Our communication is, and always has been, conducted by email. I have never met some of my fellow-editors in person. =B3We began by agreeing to contribute our own money to a bank account. Everyone threw in one percent of their gross annual income. The disparity was wide but people agreed it was fair. We figured we had enough money to publish a certain amount of books per year. Because that number was less than the number of editors (18 editors at that time) we agreed to spread ou= t our first publishing round over three years. =B3Each editor was allotted equal funds to edit, design, and produce one book in that first cycle. Editors with different skills for typesetting, designing, etc., volunteered their time to help when help was asked for. There were no editorial requirements or standards for choosing a book. Ther= e was no vote or veto process for whatever title an editor brought to press. There were no limitations on design or print specifications except those created by one's budget.=B2=8BDaniel Bouchard =20 =20 *Performer Bios* =20 **Steve Carey =20 Subpress co-editor Anselm Berrigan will present work by poet Steve Carey, whose book Berrigan and his brother Edmund are editing for Subpress. =20 =B3Steve's books are very hard to find, but include The California Papers (United Artists), Gentle Subsidy (Big Sky), Smith Going Backwards (Cranium Press), and 20 Poems. Alice Notley's book of essays Coming After contains a memoir/essay on Steve, and the Up Late anthology edited by Andrei Codrescu has, I believe, a few of his poems. Steve's poetry is hard to describe, but I want to say, and so will, that a title like Gentle Subsidy in and of itself gives a sense of his predilection, one of several at least, for word combinations=8Ba really delicate consonant balance, if such a thing makes sense. And a great sense of humor, love of song (he was a drummer and could play guitar) and companionship, and weirdness (of a mostly non-threatening kind, but you=B9d have to figure that out yourself). He was like this huge gu= y who wouldn't harm a soul, with a deep voice and ability to loom. Bob Newhar= t and Jimi Hendrix and Philip Whalen. His dad is Harry Carey Jr., the actor i= n many of John Ford's films, and so Steve was a Cali kid from the 1950s who spent time in New York in the 1960s a bit then moved to NYC permanently in the late 1970s. Brother of poet Tom Carey. Steve died in 1989.=B2 =8BAnselm Berrigan =20 =20 **Brett Evans =20 Greg Fuchs will present work by Brett Evans, professor of English at Delgad= o Community College in New Orleans, and author of Subpress=B9 After School Session, edited by Fuchs. =20 =B3After School Session is a generous and brassy cull of correspondence from Brett Evans to Buck Downs. The poems are a direct jack into the miniamp of postcard art sent between two friends; they hit hard in an open-all-night punk rock show for the audience of one. Like the form of Kerouac's Mexico City Blues, limited by the small size of a breastpocket notebook, Evans's gumbo is cooked in the scant pot of the postcard--an "afterschool rest stop of the imagination / real special." The poems offer one slamming and dammin= g notation after another. Down's artful arrangement and selection should stan= d as a model for what one can do with our hazardous mail.=B2 =8BTom Devaney **I Feel Tractor http://www.myspace.com/ifeeltractor http://www.goodbyebetter.com/ =20 I Feel Tractor is available to you with musings of space folk and cut ups. = I Feel Tractor has a self-titled 7=B2 from the Loudmouth Collective, and a CD, Once I Had an Earthquake, from Goodbye Better. =20 =20 **Denize Lauture =20 Denize Lauture, first born of 13 peasant children, migrated to the U.S. fro= m Haiti in 1968. He is a professor of French and Spanish at St Thomas Aquinas College in Sparkill and lives in the Bronx. Lauture writes in Creole, English, and French. He is the author of Blues of the Lightning Metamorphosis, Father and Son, Running the Road to ABC, Mothers and Daughters, The Curse of the Poet, When the Denizen Weeps, and Subpress=B9 The Black Warrior and Other Poems, edited by Fuchs =20 =20 **My Invisible http://www.myspace.com/myinvisible =20 =B3Put aside your preconceived notions of a chamber-instrument ensemble. Neither aloof nor pretentious, Providence's My Invisible maintains a punk-rock subversiveness while gleefully coloring outside the lines of genr= e limitations. They're wry changelings, equally at home crafting waltz-time laments as they are writing off-the-cuff paeans to their favorite Detroit Piston. They even have their own cheer. =20 =B3Fittingly, its easier to define them by what they aren=B9t than by what they are, given that their very name evokes a kind-of absence by design. Neither drawing-room prim or Gothic kitsch (see: Rasputina), their music although not rock by any stretch flirts with the same quiet/loud dichotomy first patented by the Pixies, and to equally stirring effect. Exploiting negative as well as positive space, the band shapes gripping music, sometimes out of thin air. =20 =B3You can hear it on their self-released debut, My Invisible, but its even more pronounced during their vibrant live show, in which the blend of cello= , violin, guitar, Roxy (an antique instrument), pick-up percussion, and intricate harmonies intertwine to create something that=B9s hard to pin down. Searching for influences, one hears echoes of the Slits percussive, ramshackle humor, of This Heats haunting complexity, of Dirty Threes sun-drenched expansiveness. And if that sounds complicated, embodying all sorts of seemingly contradictory impulses is part of My Invisible=B9s considerable charm..." =8BAndrea Feldman, The Phoenix ---- =20 Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues =20 Next event: =20 Tues. Nov. 25/ NYC Small Presses night featuring Farfalla Press, Open 24 Hours, :::the press gang:::, and X-ing Books =20 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://www.welcometoboogcity.com T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:25:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: corrected version, apologies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit XCP: Cross Cultural Poetics is pleased to celebrate its twentieth issue with the publication of a 180+ page anthology of contemporary writers addressing the theme upon which the journal was founded more than a decade ago. Below are just a few of the essays that appear in this anniversary issue: Kazim Ali, “The Poetics of Islam” Amiri Baraka, “Black Power in Newark” Jeff Derksen, “The Idea of Cross-Culture” Bhanu Kapil, “Notes of Failure: A Short Essay on Cross-Cultural Poetics” Barbara Jane Reyes, “On Feminism, Women of Color, Poetics, and Reticence” Rodrigo Toscano, “To Become Super-Solid” Tyrone Williams, “Problems and Promises of Actually Existing Cross Cultural Poetics” Rachel Zolf, “A Tenuous We: Writing as Not-Knowing” Others writers in this special issue include Maria Damon, Patrick Durgin, Larissa Lai, Juliana Spahr, Celina Su, Edwin Torres, Fred Wah, Rita Wong, and many others. XCP no. 20 is available as part of a four-issue subscription ($30, checks payable to “College of St. Catherine” and mailed to Mark Nowak, ed., XCP: Cross Cultural Poetics, c/o College of St. Catherine, 601 25th Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN. 55454; subscribers outside the U.S. please add $5). For questions, email the editor at . XCP no. 21/22 will be a special double issue (“South Africa: Literature and Social Movements”) that will include new writings from Dennis Brutus, Zine Magubane, Kelwyn Sole, Botsotso Jesters, Priya Narismulu, and many others. As Juan Felipe Herrera wrote about XCP in the Poetry Project Newsletter a decade ago: “Welcome to a Writer’s Manual on how to detonate the master axis of Big Brother narratives.” ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:38:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: from Dirk Vekemans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://poeticinvention.blogspot.com/2008/10/xcp-celebrates.html cheers, d. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:03:02 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Edmund Hardy Subject: Tina Bass: Mouthings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Intercapillary Editions" plush degrees=2C said the cow=2C wrap the fees presents: Mouthings by Tina Bass A book of talk. 6" x 9"=2C jacket-hardcover binding=2C cream interior paper=2C 60 pages. = =A38.96 plus =A33.50 p&p.=20 Or download it for FREE. Mummy: It means that something has a hole all the way through it=2C like a= straw has. Can you think of anything else that is hollow? Owen: A bunny. Mummy: A bunny? Owen: Yes. A bunny that's been shot by a bullet and the bullet has gone a= ll the way through and left a hole. Sources and developmental origins are left behind in Tina Bass=92 fleet set of scenes cut from conversations with her twin sons covering just over a year. Speech which seemed to the poet worth archiving becomes art-action=2C= a journal which opens at the threshold of state schooling and continues onwards. Coming across these tiny exchanges of power=2C acquisition=2C socialisation and play=2C I read them in unravelling ways: as pieces from a sequence of conversation novels which were somewhere splintering and unifying=3B as the unsystematic studies or emblems of a parent=3B as an investigative diagram of articulation. What is it that=92s emplotted here? = (editor Edmund Hardy) Statement from the author: On the 6th September 2006 I wrote down a short conversation that I=92d had with my two young sons. I posted it onto a MySpace blog and two weeks later recorded another=2C and then another=3B until it was suggested that I gather them into a book. I had been aware for a quite some time that I was doing more than recording the words of my children. Obviously the records serve as memorabilia=3B the preservation of which will demonstrate to Leon and Owen that their mother was paying attention. Each entry can be viewed as an item in the memory box=2C placed alongside the first baby-grows and the envelopes filled with milk teeth. As a female writer=2C writing in a way that foregrounds motherhood=2C I believe that I have also been articulating something of the unsaid feminine. I have recently been guided to Mary Kelly=92s Postpartum Document and have been fascinated by her passion for illustrating =91the collaged life of women who choose to create and procreate=92. That particular work has been critiqued by many but it is when Mary describes the Document as =91the rationalisation of a difficult experience=92 or compensation for giving birth and losing control=2C that I find myself smiling and releasing an exuberant =91Hear=2C Hear=92. 27th September 2006 (Owen has struggled to drop off to sleep since he has started school. Leon = rarely takes longer than 1-5 minutes) Owen:=0B 'Cwab' starts with 'cuh'=2C 'koala' starts with 'cuh'=2C 'starfish= ' starts with a 'duh' Mummy: Owen=2C it's time to close your eyes and go to sleep now. It's late. Owen: I can't sleep because I'm thinking. Leon: Owen. YOU. JUST. CLOSE. YOUR. EYES. Tina Bass currently lives=2C works and studies in the Midlands of England. With the support of Lawrence Upton and Martin Holroyd she has recently had two poetry chapbooks published: Mechanical Expressions (Writers Forum=2C 2007)= =2C and Fat Man Dancing=2C (Poetry Monthly Press=2C 2006).=20 _________________________________________________________________ Discover Bird's Eye View now with Multimap from Live Search http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354026/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:40:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Halle Subject: Kent Johnson @ Seven Corners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please enjoy a series of Traductions selected from *Kent Johnson's* *Homage to the Last Avant-Garde* (Shearsman Books, UK) at *Seven Corners * (http://sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com/). Cheers, Steve Halle Editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:40:33 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=93The_?= Man in the Booth in the Midtown Tunnel" goes to Endicott College Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" =93The Man in the Booth in the Midtown Tunnel" goes to Endicott College =20 =93The Man in the Booth in the Midtown Tunnel" goes to Endicott College=20= I was invited to give a workshop for my poetry collection =93The Man in t= he=20 Booth in the Midtown Tunnel=94 by an unusual man, Dan Sklar. Dan Sklar is= the=20 Creative Writing Director at Endicott College in Beverly, Mass. Dan has t= urned=20 into a great supporter of the small press in the Boston area. There are t= oo few=20 colleges, universities, that welcome little magazines and small presses, = and=20 because of Dan, many poets who would not have been heard by many=20 students, are given a voice. Besides the Cape Cod Writers Center headed b= y=20 the gracious Ann Elizabeth Tom, and Michael Sullivan of the William Joine= r=20 Center at U/Mass/Boston, and a few select others, Sklar is a major solid=20= citizen. Sklar, of course is a widely published small press poet and prob= ably=20 mentions his credits in Free Verse and Ibbetson Street more than he menti= ons=20 his publications in the Harvard Review, and other top shelf mags. When yo= u go=20 out to Endicott, Sklar treats everyone the same. Whether you are a big de= al=20 poet with a Pulitzer, or you are putting out a stapled chapbook with a=20= minipress, well, Sklar digs you=85as long as the work works for him. I te= ll Dan=20 whenever I go out to Endicott I feel like a mensch, a distinguished poet,= =20 instead of an extinguished one. Hats off to this guy and buy his latest=20= book =93Bicycles, Canoes, and Drums=94 *I included some remarks that I made to his class about =93The Man in the= =20 Booth in the Midtown Tunnel=94 (Cervena Barva Press): There are some people who are nature poets, there are language poets,=20 metaphysical poets, and you name it. I guess I can call myself a peoples=92= poet.=20 I write mostly about people=97character studies, if you will. I guess it = goes back=20 to when I was a kid watching the Twilight Zone=97you know the original in= black=20 and white. Rod Serling, the host, would introduce some character, a guy,=20= down-on-his-luck, maybe a reclusive bookworm, a snake oil salesman, in a=20= gone-to-seed hotel room, with the requisite neon sign blinking garishly o= utside=20 his window. Serling would introduce him: =93Have if you will Mr. Henry Be= amish, a=20 small fastidious man whose only passion is the written word.=94 To me, often people on the margin have been a source of fascination. I ha= ve=20 worked a s a counselor at a psych. hospital, McLean Hospital, for 26 year= s=20 now, and I guess for some reason I was attracted to the =93craziness=94 o= f the=20 ward, over the =93craziness=94 of the outside world. When we discharge cl= ients=20 from the program I work now, I often joke; =93I haven=92t been discharged= yet,=20 and won=92t be anytime soon.=94 A good portion of the work I have produce= d has=20 dealt with the often overlooked denizens of the back ward, and the people= I=20 have encountered in bars, coffee shops, and subways, etc=85 in=20 Boston/Cambridge/Somerville. In my life, and I am sure in yours, there has always been a person, who=20= remains a strong symbol, an icon for you, a flashing light, on this journ= ey we=20 all take. So when I wrote: =93The Man in the Booth in the Midtown Tunnel,= =94 I=20 concentrated on a man I saw in a small booth in the middle of the Midtown= =20 Tunnel when I was a kid. The tunnel connects the borough of Queens to the= =20 borough of Manhattan. The booth and the man are long gone, but the booth=20= hasn=92t given up the ghost. Now as a middle age man, probably around the= =20 same age as the guy in the booth, I realized this man represented encroac= hing=20 adulthood: the trip from the relative security of a Long Island childhood= , to an=20 unknown, alluring, yet frightening adult world. Did this man have a wife,= =20 friends, a life outside the booth, I asked my Dad. My father confused as = to=20 why I was fixated on this obscure figure said: =93How the hell do I know?= =94=20 When I was on the skids, I retreated to a booth of my own making, whether= a=20 cubicle in a dark library, or the small furnished room I lived in the Bac= k Bay of=20 Boston for many years. We emerge and submerge in metaphorical tunnels. We= =20 emerge from the vaginal tunnel towards the light and cry, later we reente= r=20 that tunnel and die. We have many rites of passage. All I know is, wherev= er I=20 go that man, in that cramped booth, will always follow me. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:58:54 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Diane DiPrima Subject: Re: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain I, too, came up in the era of letter-press books, and linotype newspapers= . It's been=20 exciting to watch the various technologies arrive, flourish and pass on. = When offset=20 printing was just coming into its own (mostly for textbooks) in the mid-1= 960s, I worked=20 nights at a cold-type house in New York City, typesetting (which was real= ly typing on IBM=20 Executive typewriters) and "stripping in" corrections at a light table. T= his was before the=20 "Selectric Composer" and there was no way to change typefaces. We had spe= cial italic=20 machines, and would strip in all the itals in a text, as well as smaller = fonts for footnote=20 numbers, etc. Armed with this experience and the help of a less than ten more well-off = artists (painters,=20 mostly) I bought a Fairchild Davidson Offrset Press secondhand, took a we= ek-long course=20 that came free with the purchase, and started Poets Press in 1964. I've been amazed and excited as each technological advance made publishin= g easier and=20 more and more possible, but=97I draw the line at books on demand. I had y= et to see a=20 book published in this manner that didn't scream "tawdry". Something abou= t the binding?=20 The glue? The almost-nonexistent gutter margins? The poor quality of the = text, which=20 goes from light to dark arbitrarily. . . etc. Then, there's the blurring of the line between the first edition, and lat= er printings. And,=20 with POD books virtually never go "out of print" and that magical moment = never arrives=20 when the rights return to the author and additions, revisionings, etc hav= e their day. (This=20 problem probably only exists if one is writing ongoing long works which c= ontinually=20 redefine themselves=97as I am in "Loba", and "Revolutionary Letters".) Another difficulty with POB, unless there's a substantial first printing:= when a small poetry=20 "came out" there was usually a substantial run: at least 500 copies. (Aft= er the first Poets=20 Press book, A.B. Spellman's "The Beautiful Day", which had a run of 750 c= opies, we never=20 did less than 1000 copies, and after the first four books most first prin= tings were 2000=20 copies.) This gave one a sense that the book was "out there"=97somewhere.= There was a=20 fighting chance that if it was totally unnoticed when it was published a = copy light turn up=20 generations later in a secondhand bookstore (!) and the work again enjoye= d by some=20 future reader. The books were one's progeny, a continuation of a particul= ar crossroads of=20 mindstream and history. A BOD doesn't even feel worth shelving. If I do buy one, I usually feel l= ike I've bought a=20 pad of paper with some irregular type on it, and I might as well tear off= each page as I=20 finish reading and recycle it. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, b= ut it's not what I=20 seek from a book as writer, as reader. But I'm not writing only to kvetch, tho as an oldster I inevitably do tha= t.=20 I'm also writing to learn. I've been wrong before, and I've been around l= ong enough to=20 know it. So=97if you've gotten this far in my screed=97I'd like to ask: A= RE there places that=20 actually produce Books on Demand that don't look horrible, and feel worse= ? I am asking=20 here about about publishers, and also about companies that produce these = things.=20 Thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from folks. Diane di Prima =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:03:19 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ann Stedt Subject: use these words issue one available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline *http://www.freewebs.com/usethesewords/pdf/usethesewords1.pdf* Submissions for *use these words *issue two: By January 1, 2009, send a brief contributor's note and 1=975 poems, each using all of the following words, in the body of an e-mail to usethesewords@gmail.com: pillow, tantrum, silver, roof, vacant, atlas, break =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:42:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: grants manager job in mpls Comments: To: engrad-l@umn.edu, Theory and Writing , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Announcement: Job opening: Grants Manager. The IAS and Northrop/Concerts and Lectures are seeking an experienced grants manager. Review of applications will begin November 3. For full information and instructions on applying, search for position number 158644 on the University’s online employment system, at http://employment.umn.edu, or click directly on https://employment.umn.edu/applicants/jsp/shared/frameset/Frameset.jsp?time=1224263887140. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:48:26 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: andrew burke Subject: Re: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Diane - a privilege to talk with you. I too have produced books and scads of printed material and find it difficult to read a book which is below par in production qualities. But I have Sheila Murphy's Collected Chapbooks recently, and, even though it is from a different publisher, I obtained it from LULU publishing - who seem t= o produce books and do the marketing work for some other publishers. If this book is POD I'm very surprised at its quality. None of the usual hallmarks of such production are visible and the quality of print and stock is high class. Does anybody know more about LULU? (And don't break into song, all you fellow sexagenarians and older.) Andrew 2008/10/23 Diane DiPrima > I, too, came up in the era of letter-press books, and linotype newspapers= . > It's been > exciting to watch the various technologies arrive, flourish and pass on. > When offset > printing was just coming into its own (mostly for textbooks) in the > mid-1960s, I worked > nights at a cold-type house in New York City, typesetting (which was real= ly > typing on IBM > Executive typewriters) and "stripping in" corrections at a light table. > This was before the > "Selectric Composer" and there was no way to change typefaces. We had > special italic > machines, and would strip in all the itals in a text, as well as smaller > fonts for footnote > numbers, etc. > > Armed with this experience and the help of a less than ten more well-off > artists (painters, > mostly) I bought a Fairchild Davidson Offrset Press secondhand, took a > week-long course > that came free with the purchase, and started Poets Press in 1964. > > I've been amazed and excited as each technological advance made publishin= g > easier and > more and more possible, but=97I draw the line at books on demand. I had y= et > to see a > book published in this manner that didn't scream "tawdry". Something abou= t > the binding? > The glue? The almost-nonexistent gutter margins? The poor quality of the > text, which > goes from light to dark arbitrarily. . . etc. > > Then, there's the blurring of the line between the first edition, and lat= er > printings. And, > with POD books virtually never go "out of print" and that magical moment > never arrives > when the rights return to the author and additions, revisionings, etc hav= e > their day. (This > problem probably only exists if one is writing ongoing long works which > continually > redefine themselves=97as I am in "Loba", and "Revolutionary Letters".) > > Another difficulty with POB, unless there's a substantial first printing: > when a small poetry > "came out" there was usually a substantial run: at least 500 copies. (Aft= er > the first Poets > Press book, A.B. Spellman's "The Beautiful Day", which had a run of 750 > copies, we never > did less than 1000 copies, and after the first four books most first > printings were 2000 > copies.) This gave one a sense that the book was "out there"=97somewhere. > There was a > fighting chance that if it was totally unnoticed when it was published a > copy light turn up > generations later in a secondhand bookstore (!) and the work again enjoye= d > by some > future reader. The books were one's progeny, a continuation of a particul= ar > crossroads of > mindstream and history. > > A BOD doesn't even feel worth shelving. If I do buy one, I usually feel > like I've bought a > pad of paper with some irregular type on it, and I might as well tear off > each page as I > finish reading and recycle it. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, b= ut > it's not what I > seek from a book as writer, as reader. > > But I'm not writing only to kvetch, tho as an oldster I inevitably do tha= t. > > I'm also writing to learn. I've been wrong before, and I've been around > long enough to > know it. So=97if you've gotten this far in my screed=97I'd like to ask: A= RE > there places that > actually produce Books on Demand that don't look horrible, and feel worse= ? > I am asking > here about about publishers, and also about companies that produce these > things. > > Thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from folks. > > Diane di Prima > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > --=20 Andrew http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:59:59 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: faux poem issue one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline faux poem issue one - Peter Ciccariello Invisible Notes ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 03:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable POD books have gotten a lot better, Diane--still not with same physical qua= lity as I would like, but acceptable. I just recently received a pile of bo= oks from BlazeVOX, for instance, and they don't have any of the problems yo= u mention, even though there is still a certain material "solidity" that I = find lacking. Mainly the paper is not as heavy and opaque as I would like. = But perhaps this reflects budgetary constraints more than the technology it= self. I can also mention that Salt and Shearsman put out decent quality POD= paperbacks.=0A=0AOn the other hand, I would have a concern about that sens= e that the book is "out there." And I also agree that there is a positive a= spect of a book being able to go out of print. That is what allows for a ne= w edition--revised or not.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Dian= e DiPrima =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASen= t: Wednesday, 22 October, 2008 6:58:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: Boston Area Small = Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On= -Demand=0A=0AI, too, came up in the era of letter-press books, and linotype= newspapers. It's been =0Aexciting to watch the various technologies arrive= , flourish and pass on. When offset =0Aprinting was just coming into its ow= n (mostly for textbooks) in the mid-1960s, I worked =0Anights at a cold-typ= e house in New York City, typesetting (which was really typing on IBM =0AEx= ecutive typewriters) and "stripping in" corrections at a light table. This = was before the =0A"Selectric Composer" and there was no way to change typef= aces. We had special italic =0Amachines, and would strip in all the itals i= n a text, as well as smaller fonts for footnote =0Anumbers, etc.=0A=0AArmed= with this experience and the help of a less than ten more well-off artists= (painters, =0Amostly) I bought a Fairchild Davidson Offrset Press secondha= nd, took a week-long course =0Athat came free with the purchase, and starte= d Poets Press in 1964.=0A=0AI've been amazed and excited as each technologi= cal advance made publishing easier and =0Amore and more possible, but=E2=80= =94I draw the line at books on demand. I had yet to see a =0Abook published= in this manner that didn't scream "tawdry". Something about the binding? = =0AThe glue? The almost-nonexistent gutter margins? The poor quality of the= text, which =0Agoes from light to dark arbitrarily. . . etc.=0A=0AThen, th= ere's the blurring of the line between the first edition, and later printin= gs. And, =0Awith POD books virtually never go "out of print" and that magic= al moment never arrives =0Awhen the rights return to the author and additio= ns, revisionings, etc have their day. (This =0Aproblem probably only exists= if one is writing ongoing long works which continually =0Aredefine themsel= ves=E2=80=94as I am in "Loba", and "Revolutionary Letters".)=0A=0AAnother d= ifficulty with POB, unless there's a substantial first printing: when a sma= ll poetry =0A"came out" there was usually a substantial run: at least 500 c= opies. (After the first Poets =0APress book, A.B. Spellman's "The Beautiful= Day", which had a run of 750 copies, we never =0Adid less than 1000 copies= , and after the first four books most first printings were 2000 =0Acopies.)= This gave one a sense that the book was "out there"=E2=80=94somewhere. The= re was a =0Afighting chance that if it was totally unnoticed when it was pu= blished a copy light turn up =0Agenerations later in a secondhand bookstore= (!) and the work again enjoyed by some =0Afuture reader. The books were on= e's progeny, a continuation of a particular crossroads of =0Amindstream and= history.=0A=0AA BOD doesn't even feel worth shelving. If I do buy one, I u= sually feel like I've bought a =0Apad of paper with some irregular type on = it, and I might as well tear off each page as I =0Afinish reading and recyc= le it. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but it's not what I =0Aseek= from a book as writer, as reader.=0A=0ABut I'm not writing only to kvetch,= tho as an oldster I inevitably do that. =0A=0AI'm also writing to learn. I= 've been wrong before, and I've been around long enough to =0Aknow it. So= =E2=80=94if you've gotten this far in my screed=E2=80=94I'd like to ask: AR= E there places that =0Aactually produce Books on Demand that don't look hor= rible, and feel worse? I am asking =0Ahere about about publishers, and also= about companies that produce these things. =0A=0AThanks for your time. I l= ook forward to hearing from folks.=0A=0ADiane di Prima=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. C= heck guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.ht= ml=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 02:11:52 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geraldine Monk Subject: Signing off. See you? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would be lovely if Alan and see some of you at the following places: Buffalo University Tuesday 28th October 12.30=20 Poetry Collection 420, Capen Hall, &=20 8.00 pm (same day) Manuscript Museum 453, Porter Ave University (Alan) Thursday 30th October 12.30=20 Poetry Collection Capen Hall=20 & 8.00 pm (same day) Cinema at Hallwalls 341 Delaware Ave (Geraldine) Chicago University=20 Thursday 6th November 4-30 pm Poem Present Poetry Reading Rosenwald 405 1101 E. 58th Street. Friday 7th November 1.00 pm=20 Lecture and discussion Building/room. TBD Oxford University, Miami, Ohio Thursday 13th November (no more details as yet) Washington D.C. Sunday 16th November=20 3.oo pm (With Cathy Wagner) In Your Ears D.C. Arts Centre, 2438 18th Street N.W.=20 Orono University, Maine Thursday 20th November (no more details as yet) Boston (Cambridge) Mass=20 Saturday 22nd November 3.00pm Plough & Stars, 912, Massachusetts Ave, Cambridge. Mass. Wendell, Mass Monday 24th November 8.00 pm All Small Caps The Deja Brew Pub (Wow!) 57 Lockes Village Road,=20 Wendell. Geraldine =20 Ghost & Other Sonnets by Geraldine Monk is now available from Salt = Publishing or West House Books. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 07:00:31 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dana Teen Lomax Subject: Letters to Poets NY Reading & Party 10/24/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're invited to celebrate the publication of the anthology=20 Letters to Poets:=20 Conversations about Poetics=2C Politics=2C and Community=20 Friday=2C October 24 from 5:30-7:30 p.m.=20 The party will take place at Wollman Hall in the Eugene Lang Building=20 at 65 West 11th Street=20 5th Floor (enter at 66 West 12th Street) in New York City.=20 Refreshments will be served! The event will feature:=20 Eileen Myles=2C Anselm Berrigan=2C Joan Retallack=2C=20 Jill Magi=2C Rosamond King=2C Brenda Coultas=2C=20 Brenda Iijima=2C Traci Gourdine=2C Karen Weiser=2C and Cecilia Vicuna.=20 A brief Q & A will follow the reading and there will be a special=20 guest appearance from "The Poetry Doctor" who will be diagnosing=20 and writing prescriptions for all your poetic ills. We look forward to seeing you there! Dana Teen Lomax and Jennifer Firestone Co-editors=2C Letters to Poets _________________________________________________________________ Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:43:33 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: the Poets' Corner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Two adorable things about Mozart* * * * * * *First: he's straight into it. No preamble ever, as if he's saying: there's plenty more where that came from. You can bank on it. And secondly: how he drags something like heavy fabric, like a train behind him up stone stairs to a window with a view of graves. *(c) Elizabeth Smither* The present update of the Poets' Corner features an *Autumnal Anthology* with contributions by: Dirk Vekemans, Bobbi Lurie, Anny Ballardini, Obododimma Oha, Jeff Harrison, Cecil Touchon, Halvard Johnson, Jill McCabe Johnson, Ann Neuser Lederer, Barbara Crooker, Christina Pacosz, Penelope Schott, Georgia Ann Banks-Martin, Sandra Giedeman, Joel Weishaus, Pat Falk, Tim Mayo, Wendy Taylor Carlisle, Wendy Vardaman, Bill Morgan, Eileen Tabios, Sheila E. Murphy, Alan Sondheim, David Graham, Tad Richards, Bob Grumman, Henry Gould, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Guido Catalano, Ruth Fainlight, Ann Fisher-Wirth, Fan Ogilvie, Larissa Shmailo, Geof Huth, Grace Cavalieri, Mark Weiss, Pam Brown, David Howard, Edward Mycue, Elizabeth Smither, Elena Karina Byrne, David-Baptiste Chirot, Nico Vassilakis, Allen Bramhall, Dan Waber, Aaron Belz, Nicholas Piombino, Joseph Duemer, Daniel Zimmerman, Geoffrey Gatza, Jon Corelis, Berty Skuber, Peter Ciccariello. http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=318 * New Poets:* *Lanny Quarles* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 * ** * * *Louisa Howerow* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 * ** * * *Jim Watson Gove* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 * ** * * *Tiare Picard* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 * ** * * *Charlotte Mandel* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 * ** * * *John Bloomberg-Rissman* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 * ** * * *Patricia Valdata* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 * ** * * *Conrad Reeder* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 * ** * * *Christina Pacosz* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 * ** * * *Barbara Crooker* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 * ** * * *Obododimma Oha* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 * ** * * *Bill Morgan* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 * ** * * *Wendy Vardaman* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 * ** * * *Penelope Scambly Schott* ** * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 * ** * * * * *New Work by already Featured Poets* *Douglas Clark* *A little poem for Mahmoud* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2462 *Elizabeth Smither* *Intensive reading with Diana* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2463 *Turn-back service* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2464 *A nun prepares for death* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2465 *Last week of a life* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2466 *Virginia: gardening with transistor* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2467 *Two adorable things about Mozart* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2624 *Sheila E. Murphy* *as if to have appended* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2473 *Noun that I've been watching (33)* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2475 *Noun that I've been watching (34)* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2476 *Noun that I've been watching (35)* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2477 *Noun that I've been watching (36)* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2478 *Noun that I've been watching (37)* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2479 *Tad Richards* *NOUVELLE VAGUE* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2474 *Situations :::: continues* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 *Barry Alpert * *THE MISSION [via Johnny To]* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2480 *BUDDHA COLLAPSED OUT OF SHAME [via Hana Makhmalbaf]* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2482 *Sharon Brogan* *Harvest Moon* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2484 *Jeff Harrison* **Mimicry In ruins** ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2485 **Actaeon, afterward** ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2486 **medals: GRANDUNCLES OF THE CATTLETRADE** ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2487 *Edward Mycue* *WORD THUMB* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2460 *EVERYTHING IS BEAUTIFUL* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2461 *Three Poems* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2628 *PERISHING REPUBLICS DRINK* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2630 *A FIGHT FOR AIR* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2634 *I AM A FACT NOT A FICTION* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2637 *DOOR IN MY HEAD* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2638 *GET TEN CLEAN* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2639 *JOSEPH* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2640 *YESTERDREAMS-STAR LIGHT* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2641 *WHEEEL* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2642 *BLESS george carlin, honor his life* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2643 *AFTER TIME IS RIPE IT IS BANISHED* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2644 *Under Poets on Poets* *Christina Pacosz translated by me* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=83 *Ann Fisher-Wirth's bio in Italian by me* ** http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=112 * * I would like to thank warmly every single Poet, Author, Artist who has contributed to the Poets' Corner. The Autumn Harvest for the Corner in numbers: - over 2700 poems - over 300 poets and growing! Autumnly yours, Anny Ballardini -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: amishius@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amish Trivedi Subject: Absent Mag 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings! =A0 At long last, absent 3 has arrived! Featuring new poetry, prose, sound, ima= ge, translation and manifestos by Amish Trivedi * Ana Bozicevic * Babs de Genlis * Bill Brown * Carl Tillona * Catherine Meng * Chad Reynolds * Chris Nealon * Chris Tonelli * Dale Smith * Donna Stonecipher * Dorothea Lasky * Igor Shatner * Jane Gregory * Jennifer Anderson * Jenny Boully * Jo Guldi * Joe Amato * Jonathan Haeber * Leigh Stein * Matt Hart * Norbert Francis * Pavel Arsinev * Rick Prelinger * Sergeij Kitov * Tung-Hui Hu Read & enjoy & get angry. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:01:08 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Tomorrow Night! & Saturday Night! Comments: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable STAIN OF POETRY presents Fri., Oct. 24th @ 7 p.m. - Stain Bar - Williamsburg , Brooklyn=20 ** Browning, Cohen, Herron, Howe, Rumble, and Svalina ** =20 & SPECIAL EVENT: UDP Swedish Authors and Translators=20 Sat., Oct. 25th @ 6 p.m. - Stain Bar - Williamsburg , Brooklyn=20 ** Eugene Ostashevsky, Johannes G=F6ransson, Fredrik Nyberg, and Jennifer Hayashida**=20 =A0=20 stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny 11211 (L train to Grand Street , 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m.=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =A0=20 October 24th @ 7 p.m. Sommer Browning has a chapbook out with horse less press called Vale Tudo and another on the rise with Cue Editions. Forklift, Ohio , New York Quarterly, Open Letters Monthly, Free Verse and other journals have published her poems. She lives and loves in Brooklyn .=20 ~~~=20 Julia Cohen has three chapbooks available. =93The History of a Lake Never Drowns=94 from Dancing Girl Press= and =93Chugwater=94 (with Mathias Svalina) from Transmission Press are forthcom= ing this year. Her poems have been published in Denver Quarterly, Copper Nickel, Bir= d Dog, Spinning Jenny, RealPoetik, Forklift, Ohio, MiPOesia, and GutCult amon= gst others. Her blog: www.onthemessiersideofneat.blogspot.com.=20 ~~~=20 Patrick Herron (http://patrickherron.com) is a poet, musician, artist and information scientist living in Chapel Hill . His doll Lester is the author of the book _Be Somebody_ (http://effingpress= .com/lester.htm) published in April 2008 by Effing Press (a 2003 review from Ron Silliman he= re: http://tinyurl.com/3e8es). Patrick is the author of several other books= of poetry including _The American Godwar Complex_ (2004, BlazeVox, download in full f= or free at http://tinyurl.com/22fsn5). ~~~=20 Brian Howe is a freelance arts journalist and poet living in Durham , NC . His poems and sound art have appeared in Fascicle, Octopus, Apocryphal Text, Listenlight, Effing Magazin= e, Soft Targets, Cannibal, MiPO, Word for/ Word, and elsewhere. Howe is the au= thor of two chapbooks, Guitar Smash (3rdness Press; 2006) and Foreign Letter (Beard of Bees; forthcoming in 2008). He is the creator of the electro-poetic project Glossolalia (http://glossolalia-blacksail.blogspot.c= om/) and a member of the Lucifer Poetics Group.=20 ~~~=20 Ken Rumble is the author of Key Bridge=20 (Carolina Wren Press, 2007) and President Letters (Scantily Clad Press, forthcoming.) His poems and reviews have appeared in Cutbank, Typo, Coconut= , the tiny, Minor American, Talisman, and others. He lives in Greensboro , No= rth Carolina .=20 ~~~=20 Mathias Svalina is the co-editor of Octopus Magazine & Books. He is the author of the chapbooks Why I Am White (Kitchen Press), Creation Myths (New Michigan Press), The Viral Lease (forthcoming from Smal= l Anchor Press) &, written in collaboration with Julia Cohen, When We Broke the Microscope (Small Fires Press). His first book, Destruction Myth, is forthcoming from Cleveland State University Press in 09.=20 ~~~~=20 Johannes G=F6ransson is the co-editor of the press Action Books and the online journal Action, Yes. He is the translator of Remainland: Selected Poems of = Aase Berg and Ideals Clearance by Henry Parland, as well as the upcoming With De= er by Aase Berg and Collobert Orbital by Johan Jonsson. His own books include:= A New Quarantine Will Take My Place, Pilot and Dear Ra.=20 ~~~~=20 Fredrik Nyberg is a Swedish poet born in 1968, currently living in G=F6teborg , Sweden . In 2007, Ugly Duckling Presse published a translation of his d=E9but collectio= n, A Different Practice (En annorlunda praktik), originally published by Norstedts F=F6rlag in 1998. Subsequent books include Blomsterur - f=F6rklaringar och dikter (Clockwork of Flowers - Explanations and Poems, 2000), =C5ren (The Years, 2002), and Det blir inte r=E4ttvist bara f=F6r att b=E5da blundar (It won=92t be fair just because both shut their eyes, 2006).=A0 Translations of his poetry have appeared in The Chicago Review, The Literary Review, Calque= , Circumference, and Action, Yes. A new collection - Nio, nine, nein, neuf - is forthcoming from Norstedts in the fall of 2008. ~~~~ Poet and translator Jennifer Hayashida was born in Oakland , CA , and grew up in the suburbs of Stockholm and San Francisco . She is the recipient of a 2008-2009 LMCC Workspace Residency, a 2007 PEN Translation F= und Grant, a Witter Bynner Poetry Translator Residency at the Santa Fe Art Institute, and has been a Fellow at the MacDowell Colony. She is the transl= ator of Fredrik Nyberg=92s A Different Practice (Ugly Duckling Presse, 2007) and Eva Sj=F6din=92s Inner China (Litmus Press, 2005). Her poems and translations have appeared in The Chicago Review, Calque, Circumference, Th= e Literary Review, Insurance, The Asian Pacific American Journal, and Action, Yes; text-based work has been included in group exhibitions at The Vera Lis= t Center for Art and Politics and Artists Space. She received her MFA in writ= ing from Bard College in 2003. She currently lives in Brooklyn, and is Director of the Asian American Studies Program at Hunter C= ollege . ~~~~ Eugene Ostashevsky is a Russian-born American poet from New= York City. His debut poetry collection, Iterature, displays the dissonant rhythms, heavy unexpected rhymes and multilingual puns that occupied him at the turn of the century, as well as a healthy interest in mathematics. His new book from UDP, The Life = and Opinions of DJ Spinoza, employs characters such as MC Squared, Peepeesaurus, the Begriffon and, of course, DJ Spinoza, to explore the shortcomings of axiomatic systems with the insouciance and energy of Saturday-morning cartoons. He has edited an English-language anthology of Russian absurdist writings of the 1930s by such authors as Alexander Vvedensky and Daniil Kharms. His PhD dissertation was on the history of zero. He teaches the humanities at New York University. ~~~~~~ =20 stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny 11211 (L train to Grand Street , 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m. =20 ~~~~ =20 Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bozicevic =20 OCT. 24TH -- http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/friday-october-2= 4-2008-700-pm/ =A0=20 OCT. 25TH -- http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/ugly-duckling-pr= esses-swedish-authors-translators/ =A0=20 =A0=20 _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:50:54 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Next week at The Poetry Project we=B9ll host our first Talk Series event of the year. That=B9s on Monday . . . the rest of the week we=B9ll be celebrating Halloween! Monday, October 27, 8 PM Talk Series - Robert Grenier on Larry Eigner Robert Grenier looks forward to presenting an account of his relation with poet Larry Eigner (beginning w/ a visit to the Eigner home at 23 Bates Road= , Swampscott, Mass. in early January 1971, on to LE's 3 readings/classroom visits at Franconia College in northern New Hampshire where RG was teaching in the 70's, then to the 10 years RG lived in a household w/ & took care of LE in Berkeley in the 80's) & of his work over the years w/ LE establishing authoritative texts of some 1800 poems & editing 3 books, leading to RG's current project of editing (w/ Curtis Faville) a Collected Poems of Larry Eigner for the Stanford University Press. A number of Eigner typescripts from different periods of LE's work will be made available to evidence an amazing & various achievement (in the space/field of the page, w/ the typewriter as instrument) & RG will discuss the present state of the Collected Poems undertaking (including the editorial approach guiding the task) w/ everyone present who may wish to participate. Wednesday, October 29, 8 PM A Helen Adam Halloween Halloween time is a good Helen Adam time. Adam's work inspired many poets, such as Robert Duncan and Jack Spicer, to explore the ballad. This event is to celebrate the publication of A Helen Adam Reader (National Poetry Foundation, 2008) edited by Kristin Prevallet. Songsters who will conjure Adam through her ballads are: Anne Waldman, Edmund Berrigan, Dan Machlin an= d Serena Jost, Franklin Bruno and Bree Benton, Cecilia Vicu=F1a, Julie Patton, Tracie Morris, Lee Ann Brown, Charles Bernstein, Bob Hershon, Susan Howe an= d Bob Holman. This event is co-presented with Poets House. Friday, October 31, 10 PM HALLOWEEN! This Halloween, the Parish Hall will be inhabited by ghosts of the past. Poets and performers of the present will take on the specters, mannerisms, clothes, and yes, poems and songs, of your favorites from yesteryear. The siamese twins, Sylvia Plath and Charles Bukowski, may make an appearance, while the two-personed Arthur Russell could break out his cello and play a tune or two from 'World Of Echo'. Of course we've all been waiting for Alle= n Ginsberg, Kathy Acker, Frank O'Hara and Emily Dickinson to return. Ed Sanders coming face to the face with The Fuggs is not beyond reason and Sappho could even show up to show off her soul at this show! Please join guest host Ben Malkin of So L'il for this haunted and certainly magical evening. Come dressed as an other, living or gone. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:54:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Seaman Subject: Re: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand In-Reply-To: <12810a820810221748y6a339b3am66f63804169d7eb9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hey, this is an interesting discussion. I was just in Italy talking =20 with Caterina Davinio, whom I met on this list, and she suggested I =20 look into LULU. And she also directed me to YouTube, to show my =20 videos. I am curious to see about this, since my Concrete Poetry in =20 France (1981) is out of print but still an oft-cited source (it has =20 lots of footnotes), and I wonder if there is a way to get it back =20 into print. Meanwhile, I have to cite my Lettrist colleagues, who say that =20 production values are a distraction from the essence, which is the =20 creativity. This did not mollify me when I looked at dittoes and =20 mimeograph journals. And yet, isn't the creative act the most =20 important part? David On Oct 22, 2008, at 8:48 PM, andrew burke wrote: > Diane - a privilege to talk with you. > > I too have produced books and scads of printed material and find it > difficult to read a book which is below par in production =20 > qualities. But I > have Sheila Murphy's Collected Chapbooks recently, and, even though =20= > it is > from a different publisher, I obtained it from LULU publishing - =20 > who seem to > produce books and do the marketing work for some other publishers. =20 > If this > book is POD I'm very surprised at its quality. None of the usual =20 > hallmarks > of such production are visible and the quality of print and stock =20 > is high > class. Does anybody know more about LULU? (And don't break into =20 > song, all > you fellow sexagenarians and older.) > > > Andrew > > 2008/10/23 Diane DiPrima > >> I, too, came up in the era of letter-press books, and linotype =20 >> newspapers. >> It's been >> exciting to watch the various technologies arrive, flourish and =20 >> pass on. >> When offset >> printing was just coming into its own (mostly for textbooks) in the >> mid-1960s, I worked >> nights at a cold-type house in New York City, typesetting (which =20 >> was really >> typing on IBM >> Executive typewriters) and "stripping in" corrections at a light =20 >> table. >> This was before the >> "Selectric Composer" and there was no way to change typefaces. We had >> special italic >> machines, and would strip in all the itals in a text, as well as =20 >> smaller >> fonts for footnote >> numbers, etc. >> >> Armed with this experience and the help of a less than ten more =20 >> well-off >> artists (painters, >> mostly) I bought a Fairchild Davidson Offrset Press secondhand, =20 >> took a >> week-long course >> that came free with the purchase, and started Poets Press in 1964. >> >> I've been amazed and excited as each technological advance made =20 >> publishing >> easier and >> more and more possible, but=97I draw the line at books on demand. I =20= >> had yet >> to see a >> book published in this manner that didn't scream "tawdry". =20 >> Something about >> the binding? >> The glue? The almost-nonexistent gutter margins? The poor quality =20 >> of the >> text, which >> goes from light to dark arbitrarily. . . etc. >> >> Then, there's the blurring of the line between the first edition, =20 >> and later >> printings. And, >> with POD books virtually never go "out of print" and that magical =20 >> moment >> never arrives >> when the rights return to the author and additions, revisionings, =20 >> etc have >> their day. (This >> problem probably only exists if one is writing ongoing long works =20 >> which >> continually >> redefine themselves=97as I am in "Loba", and "Revolutionary = Letters".) >> >> Another difficulty with POB, unless there's a substantial first =20 >> printing: >> when a small poetry >> "came out" there was usually a substantial run: at least 500 =20 >> copies. (After >> the first Poets >> Press book, A.B. Spellman's "The Beautiful Day", which had a run =20 >> of 750 >> copies, we never >> did less than 1000 copies, and after the first four books most first >> printings were 2000 >> copies.) This gave one a sense that the book was "out there"=97=20 >> somewhere. >> There was a >> fighting chance that if it was totally unnoticed when it was =20 >> published a >> copy light turn up >> generations later in a secondhand bookstore (!) and the work again =20= >> enjoyed >> by some >> future reader. The books were one's progeny, a continuation of a =20 >> particular >> crossroads of >> mindstream and history. >> >> A BOD doesn't even feel worth shelving. If I do buy one, I usually =20= >> feel >> like I've bought a >> pad of paper with some irregular type on it, and I might as well =20 >> tear off >> each page as I >> finish reading and recycle it. Not that that's a bad thing =20 >> necessarily, but >> it's not what I >> seek from a book as writer, as reader. >> >> But I'm not writing only to kvetch, tho as an oldster I inevitably =20= >> do that. >> >> I'm also writing to learn. I've been wrong before, and I've been =20 >> around >> long enough to >> know it. So=97if you've gotten this far in my screed=97I'd like to =20= >> ask: ARE >> there places that >> actually produce Books on Demand that don't look horrible, and =20 >> feel worse? >> I am asking >> here about about publishers, and also about companies that produce =20= >> these >> things. >> >> Thanks for your time. I look forward to hearing from folks. >> >> Diane di Prima >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > > > --=20 > Andrew > http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ > http://www.flickr.com/photos/aburke/ > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: Sharon Mesmer, Tara Betts, Edwin Torres and Tim Brown In-Reply-To: <21e6587e0810221503o28038bb7he03b44b8116e0b4f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Monday, October 27 2008 7:00pm High-Performance Poetry and Prose Featuring Sharon Mesmer, Tara Betts, Edwin Torres and Tim Brown Bluestockings Bookstore and Caf=E9 172 Allen Street (Stanton/Rivington) Free! www.bluestockings.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:01:36 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: International Poetry Festival in London MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable London's Southbank Centre is holding an international poetry festival this = week, from October 24 to October 31st. For those of you in the UK, please c= heck it out. To hear from some interesting UK folk, and also from me (I'm a= blogger-in-residence), check out the festival blog here: =A0 http://www.poetryinternational.wordpress.com=A0=20 =A0 Thanks, Adam Fieled=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:34:52 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Re: the Poets' Corner In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70810230943s1dc4fd58jf8abb4c4130e155d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Interesting "reading" of music. I like the kinesic idea of "going straight into it." Motion in music; music as motion. Movement: move meant. And this MozARTistic kinesic also stirs an imagination of the visual -- the dragging of "something like heavy fabric.../up stone stairs...." Art analyzing art, inhabiting art. Good sample for discussion on music-poetry dialogism. --- Obododimma Oha. On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > *Two adorable things about Mozart* > > * * > > * * > > * *First: he's straight into it. No preamble > > ever, as if he's saying: there's plenty more > > where that came from. You can bank on it. > > > > And secondly: how he drags something > > like heavy fabric, like a train behind him > > up stone stairs to a window with a view of graves. > > > > > > *(c) Elizabeth > Smither* > > > > > > > > > > The present update of the Poets' Corner features an *Autumnal > Anthology*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=318 > > > with > contributions by: > > Dirk Vekemans, Bobbi Lurie, Anny Ballardini, Obododimma Oha, Jeff Harrison, > Cecil Touchon, Halvard Johnson, Jill McCabe Johnson, Ann Neuser Lederer, > Barbara Crooker, Christina Pacosz, Penelope Schott, Georgia Ann > Banks-Martin, Sandra Giedeman, Joel Weishaus, Pat Falk, Tim Mayo, Wendy > Taylor Carlisle, Wendy Vardaman, Bill Morgan, Eileen Tabios, Sheila E. > Murphy, Alan Sondheim, David Graham, Tad Richards, Bob Grumman, Henry > Gould, > Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Guido Catalano, Ruth Fainlight, Ann Fisher-Wirth, Fan > Ogilvie, Larissa Shmailo, Geof Huth, Grace Cavalieri, Mark Weiss, Pam > Brown, > David Howard, Edward Mycue, Elizabeth Smither, Elena Karina Byrne, > David-Baptiste Chirot, Nico Vassilakis, Allen Bramhall, Dan Waber, Aaron > Belz, Nicholas Piombino, Joseph Duemer, Daniel Zimmerman, Geoffrey Gatza, > Jon Corelis, Berty Skuber, Peter Ciccariello. > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=318 > > > > > > * New Poets:* > > *Lanny Quarles*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 > > > ** > > * * > > *Louisa Howerow*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 > > > ** > > * * > > *Jim Watson Gove*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 > > > ** > > * * > > *Tiare Picard*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 > > > ** > > * * > > *Charlotte Mandel*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 > > > ** > > * * > > *John Bloomberg-Rissman*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 > > > ** > > * * > > *Patricia Valdata*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 > > > ** > > * * > > *Conrad Reeder*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 > > > ** > > * * > > *Christina Pacosz*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 > > > ** > > * * > > *Barbara Crooker*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 > > > ** > > * * > > *Obododimma Oha*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 > > > ** > > * * > > *Bill Morgan*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 > > > ** > > * * > > *Wendy Vardaman*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 > > > ** > > * * > > *Penelope Scambly > Schott*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 > > > ** > > * > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 > *< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 > > > ** > > > > * * > > * * > > *New Work by already Featured Poets* > > > > *Douglas Clark* > > *A little poem for > Mahmoud* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2462 > > > > *Elizabeth Smither* > > *Intensive reading with > Diana* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2463 > > *Turn-back service*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2464> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2464 > > *A nun prepares for > death* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2465 > > *Last week of a > life* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2466 > > *Virginia: gardening with > transistor* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2467 > > *Two adorable things about > Mozart* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2624 > > > > > > *Sheila E. Murphy* > > *as if to have appended*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2473> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2473 > > *Noun that I've been watching > (33)* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2475 > > *Noun that I've been watching > (34)* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2476 > > *Noun that I've been watching > (35)* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2477 > > *Noun that I've been watching > (36)* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2478 > > *Noun that I've been watching > (37)* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2479 > > > > > > *Tad Richards* > > *NOUVELLE VAGUE*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2474> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2474 > > *Situations :::: > continues*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > > ** > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > > > > > *Barry Alpert * > > *THE MISSION [via Johnny > To]* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2480 > > *BUDDHA COLLAPSED OUT OF SHAME [via Hana > Makhmalbaf]* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2482 > > > > > > *Sharon Brogan* > > *Harvest Moon*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=99 > > > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2484 > > > > > > *Jeff Harrison* > > **Mimicry In ruins**< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2485> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2485 > > **Actaeon, afterward**< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2486> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2486 > > **medals: GRANDUNCLES OF THE > CATTLETRADE** > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2487 > > > > > > *Edward Mycue* > > *WORD THUMB* >** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2460 > > *EVERYTHING IS BEAUTIFUL*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2461> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2461 > > *Three Poems* >** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2628 > > *PERISHING REPUBLICS > DRINK* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2630 > > *A FIGHT FOR AIR*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2634> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2634 > > *I AM A FACT NOT A > FICTION* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2637 > > *DOOR IN MY HEAD*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2638> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2638 > > *GET TEN CLEAN* < > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2639> > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2639 > > *JOSEPH* ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2640 > > *YESTERDREAMS-STAR > LIGHT* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2641 > > *WHEEEL* ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2642 > > *BLESS george carlin, honor his > life* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2643 > > *AFTER TIME IS RIPE IT IS > BANISHED* > ** > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2644 > > > > > > *Under Poets on Poets* > > *Christina Pacosz translated by > me*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=83 > > > ** > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=83 > > > > *Ann Fisher-Wirth's bio in Italian by > me*< > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=112 > > > ** > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=112 > > * * > > > > I would like to thank warmly every single Poet, Author, Artist who has > contributed to the Poets' Corner. The Autumn Harvest for the Corner in > numbers: > > - over 2700 poems > > - over 300 poets > > and growing! > > Autumnly yours, > > > > Anny Ballardini > > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Sharon Mesmer, Tara Betts, Edwin Torres and Tim Brown In-Reply-To: <45834E1D-6CAD-463C-88E7-1181771C0277@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ooohh wish i cd be there. Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart wrote: > Monday, October 27 2008 > 7:00pm > High-Performance Poetry and Prose > > Featuring Sharon Mesmer, Tara Betts, Edwin Torres and Tim Brown > > Bluestockings Bookstore and Café > 172 Allen Street (Stanton/Rivington) > > Free! > > www.bluestockings.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:12:29 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: the Poets' Corner In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with you. I find this poem incredibly perfect in its briefness, visual imagery, distillation of Mozart and concise summary of Mozart's life and heritage. The same Mozart is present and absent at the same time - reference could be made to Barthes' studies. The poem implies much of the imagery I confer to his music and the way I perceive his personality (different from the one depicted in the movie that came out several years ago). Music is better expressed in poetry than through visual images that collide with the mental impulses we receive and transform into a personal sort of dream-like undefined ensemble of colored waves. Going back to lit. crit. I find myself at ease with Derrida in appreciating this poem. The way by which the words acquire essential meaning in a sort of imprevu and with the utmost simplicity (First [...], Secondly [...] which also scan the musical time in two stanzas), and directly comprehensible to a contemporary audience (You can bank on it) requires a longstanding ovation. BRAVO ! On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Interesting "reading" of music. > > I like the kinesic idea of "going straight into it." > Motion in music; music as motion. > Movement: move meant. > > And this MozARTistic kinesic also stirs an imagination of the visual -- the > dragging of "something like heavy fabric.../up stone stairs...." > > Art analyzing art, inhabiting art. > > Good sample for discussion on music-poetry dialogism. > > > --- Obododimma Oha. > > > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 6:43 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > > > *Two adorable things about Mozart* > > > > * * > > > > * * > > > > * *First: he's straight into it. No preamble > > > > ever, as if he's saying: there's plenty more > > > > where that came from. You can bank on it. > > > > > > > > And secondly: how he drags something > > > > like heavy fabric, like a train behind him > > > > up stone stairs to a window with a view of graves. > > > > > > > > > > > > *(c) Elizabeth > > Smither* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The present update of the Poets' Corner features an *Autumnal > > Anthology*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=318 > > > > > with > > contributions by: > > > > Dirk Vekemans, Bobbi Lurie, Anny Ballardini, Obododimma Oha, Jeff > Harrison, > > Cecil Touchon, Halvard Johnson, Jill McCabe Johnson, Ann Neuser Lederer, > > Barbara Crooker, Christina Pacosz, Penelope Schott, Georgia Ann > > Banks-Martin, Sandra Giedeman, Joel Weishaus, Pat Falk, Tim Mayo, Wendy > > Taylor Carlisle, Wendy Vardaman, Bill Morgan, Eileen Tabios, Sheila E. > > Murphy, Alan Sondheim, David Graham, Tad Richards, Bob Grumman, Henry > > Gould, > > Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Guido Catalano, Ruth Fainlight, Ann Fisher-Wirth, > Fan > > Ogilvie, Larissa Shmailo, Geof Huth, Grace Cavalieri, Mark Weiss, Pam > > Brown, > > David Howard, Edward Mycue, Elizabeth Smither, Elena Karina Byrne, > > David-Baptiste Chirot, Nico Vassilakis, Allen Bramhall, Dan Waber, Aaron > > Belz, Nicholas Piombino, Joseph Duemer, Daniel Zimmerman, Geoffrey Gatza, > > Jon Corelis, Berty Skuber, Peter Ciccariello. > > > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=318 > > > > > > > > > > > > * New Poets:* > > > > *Lanny Quarles*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=306 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Louisa Howerow*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=307 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Jim Watson Gove*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=308 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Tiare Picard*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=309 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Charlotte Mandel*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=310 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *John Bloomberg-Rissman*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=311 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Patricia Valdata*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=312 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Conrad Reeder*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=313 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Christina Pacosz*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=314 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Barbara Crooker*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=315 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Obododimma Oha*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=316 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Bill Morgan*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=317 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Wendy Vardaman*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=319 > > > > > ** > > > > * * > > > > *Penelope Scambly > > Schott*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 > > > > > ** > > > > * > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 > > *< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=320 > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > * * > > > > * * > > > > *New Work by already Featured Poets* > > > > > > > > *Douglas Clark* > > > > *A little poem for > > Mahmoud* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2462 > > > > > > > > *Elizabeth Smither* > > > > *Intensive reading with > > Diana* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2463 > > > > *Turn-back service*< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2464> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2464 > > > > *A nun prepares for > > death* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2465 > > > > *Last week of a > > life* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2466 > > > > *Virginia: gardening with > > transistor* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2467 > > > > *Two adorable things about > > Mozart* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2624 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Sheila E. Murphy* > > > > *as if to have appended*< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2473> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2473 > > > > *Noun that I've been watching > > (33)* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2475 > > > > *Noun that I've been watching > > (34)* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2476 > > > > *Noun that I've been watching > > (35)* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2477 > > > > *Noun that I've been watching > > (36)* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2478 > > > > *Noun that I've been watching > > (37)* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2479 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Tad Richards* > > > > *NOUVELLE VAGUE*< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2474> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2474 > > > > *Situations :::: > > continues*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > > > > ** > > > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=67 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Barry Alpert * > > > > *THE MISSION [via Johnny > > To]* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2480 > > > > *BUDDHA COLLAPSED OUT OF SHAME [via Hana > > Makhmalbaf]* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2482 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Sharon Brogan* > > > > *Harvest Moon*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=99 > > > > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2484 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Jeff Harrison* > > > > **Mimicry In ruins**< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2485> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2485 > > > > **Actaeon, afterward**< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2486> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2486 > > > > **medals: GRANDUNCLES OF THE > > CATTLETRADE** > > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2487 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Edward Mycue* > > > > *WORD THUMB* > >** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2460 > > > > *EVERYTHING IS BEAUTIFUL*< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2461> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2461 > > > > *Three Poems* < > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2628 > > >** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2628 > > > > *PERISHING REPUBLICS > > DRINK* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2630 > > > > *A FIGHT FOR AIR*< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2634> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2634 > > > > *I AM A FACT NOT A > > FICTION* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2637 > > > > *DOOR IN MY HEAD*< > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2638> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2638 > > > > *GET TEN CLEAN* < > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2639> > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2639 > > > > *JOSEPH* ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2640 > > > > *YESTERDREAMS-STAR > > LIGHT* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2641 > > > > *WHEEEL* ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2642 > > > > *BLESS george carlin, honor his > > life* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2643 > > > > *AFTER TIME IS RIPE IT IS > > BANISHED* > > ** > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=2644 > > > > > > > > > > > > *Under Poets on Poets* > > > > *Christina Pacosz translated by > > me*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=83 > > > > > ** > > > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetsonpoets&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=83 > > > > > > > > *Ann Fisher-Wirth's bio in Italian by > > me*< > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=112 > > > > > ** > > > > > > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules/poetsonpoets/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=112 > > > > * * > > > > > > > > I would like to thank warmly every single Poet, Author, Artist who has > > contributed to the Poets' Corner. The Autumn Harvest for the Corner in > > numbers: > > > > - over 2700 poems > > > > - over 300 poets > > > > and growing! > > > > Autumnly yours, > > > > > > > > Anny Ballardini > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Anny Ballardini > > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > > star! > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > Obododimma Oha > Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604. > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:50:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Evans Subject: UMaine New Writing Series Blog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Greetings, all, You'll find some sound files, pictures, and set-lists from the UMaine New Writing Series fall season at http://nwsnews.wordpress.com/ Lydia Millet, Tom Raworth, Tom Pickard, Davis Schneiderman, and Diane Williams have read to date, with Alan Halsey and Geraldine Monk (November 20) and Nancy Kuhl and Richard Deming (December 04) still to come. S. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:54:04 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #24: Words of War, the Politics of Truth Featuring: Mike Applegate Marc Falkoff Peter Sullivan SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 1st 7pm at the Division Street Dance Loft 735 W. Division, 3rd floor -- Chicago, IL new location in the Work House building Division @ Halsted, enter parking lot off of Halsted=20 http://www.rtgdance.com/teach_schedule.htm suggested donation $4 doors lock at 7:30pm MIKE APPLEGATE and PETER SULLIVAN are local members of Iraq Veterans Agains= t the War, founded in 2004 to give voice to the growing number of active-du= ty and veteran servicemembers who oppose the occupation of Iraq. The IVAW = Warrior Writers Project provides tools and space for community building, he= aling and redefinition. Writing from the workshops is compiled into books,= performances and exhibits that provide a lens into the hearts of people wh= o have a deep and intimate relationship with the Iraq war. =20 http://ivaw.org MARC FALKOFF is the compiler and editor of Poems from Guant=E1namo: The Det= ainees Speak, an anthology of prisoner poetry published by the University o= f Iowa Press that brings together twenty-two poems by seventeen detainees, = most still at Guant=E1namo, in legal limbo. Falkoff is a law professor at N= orthern Illinois University College of Law, where he teaches courses in cri= minal law, criminal procedure, and the federal courts. Since 2004, he has = represented 17 Yemeni prisoners at Guant=E1namo Bay. =20 http://www.uipress.uiowa.edu/books/2007-fall/falpoefro.html Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} is curated by Lisa Janss= en and Jennifer Karmin. Each event is designed as a reading experiment wit= h participation by local, national, and international writers, artists, and= performers. The series was founded in 2005 by Amina Cain and Jennifer Kar= min. Email ideas for reading experiments=20 to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries COMING UP December 6th at 7pm Experiment #25: Floating Hope Corpse=20 with Authors from MoonLit Joel Craig, Brandi Homan, Lisa Janssen, Philip Jenks, Erik Johnson, Jennife= r Karmin, Erika Mikkalo, Daniela Olszewska, Kathleen Rooney, Melissa Severi= n, Chuck Stebelton & Leila Wilson =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:19:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: searching for title MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am attempting to obtain Steve McCaffrey's 'Slightly Left of Thinking' from Chax Press for review but cannot find an email address for the publisher. Is here anyone who can help me? John Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 23:26:52 -0400 Reply-To: tyrone williams Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: tyrone williams Subject: Re: searching for title Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this: chax@theriver.com Tyrone Williams -----Original Message----- >From: John Cunningham >Sent: Oct 24, 2008 7:19 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: searching for title > >I am attempting to obtain Steve McCaffrey's 'Slightly Left of Thinking' from >Chax Press for review but cannot find an email address for the publisher. Is >here anyone who can help me? >John Cunningham > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Tyrone Williams ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 03:18:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit every aspect of a book, or any other media, can be approached 'creatively'. one of the things i like about much of the lettristic works i've seen is they often seem more deeply informed concerning visual art than is usually the case with visual writing. a book or any other media involves, or can involve, several senses, several arts, fields, different aspects, every way it can touch us, reach us, communicate. so that a work can be lettristic yet beyond solely the letter, even while remaining solely of the letter. ja http://vispo.com recent: http://vispo.com/mw > Meanwhile, I have to cite my Lettrist colleagues, who say that > production values are a distraction from the essence, which is the > creativity. This did not mollify me when I looked at dittoes and > mimeograph journals. And yet, isn't the creative act the most > important part? ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 08:27:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mirela Roznovschi Subject: Salmagundi: Thursday, Oct. 30th @ 6 p.m. In-Reply-To: <270106.15152.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SALMAGUNDI Club Center for American Art Presents Thursday=2C Oct=2E 30th =40 6 p=2Em=2E = 47 Fifth Ave =40 12th street=2C NYC 10003 (btwn 11th/12th Streets) North= of the Washington Square Arch) 212-255-7740 Press 0 Poetry =26 Music -- **Poetic Works by Mirela Roznoveanu** http=3A//www=2Esalmagundi=2Eorg/events/oct08/Poetic=2520Events=2Epdf Mirela Roznoveanu=2C a literary critic=2C essayist=2C novelist=2C poet a= nd journalist=2C has published novels=2C literary criticism=2C essays=2C= and poetry=2E She was a noted dissident journalist during the turbulent= period in Romania during the late eighties=2E In 1991=2C she came to th= e U=2ES=2E where she has continued her writing career=2E On Thursday=2C = October 30 at 6=3A00 p=2Em=2E=2C Roznoveanu=92s poetry will be performed= by Patricia O=92Brien and Amelia Arena accompanied by Kinglsey Matthews= on piano=2E Musical selections from the works of Bach=2C Chopin=2C Cior= tea=2C G=2E Enescu=2C Debussy=2C Mendolssohn=2C Barber=2C Copland will a= ugment the readings=2E Alexandre Conte is the coordinator for the event=2E= Introduction by William James Austin=2E =93What I find fascinating =5Bin Mirela =92s work=5D are the startling i= mages gleaned from such a breadth of human experience=2E The poetry is o= f such depth and complexity while not in the least hermetic=2E It is as = if the image is the precise one to stir the conflicting emotions that pe= rmeate the poems=2E=94 - Elizabeth Gamble Miller =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:26:02 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Atlanta Poets Group on youtube MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable click on the link below, or enter in a search engine... three of us, performing my polyphonic poem, =C2=A0iodine truck stop, or, he= art ache heat engine. thanx to Geof Huth for shooting this and posting this ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_MTqXmOC0wI =C2=A0 --mark =C2=A0 =E2=80=9C Americans have a reputation for being wealthy gun totingloudmouth= s who pollute the air and water and blame everyone else for theirproblems. = That's not all true, of course. (Many Americans are not wealthy).=E2=80=9D =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0--Jake Slichter =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:32:46 -0600 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: derek beaulieu Subject: Fw: Call for Papers - Humour in Experimental Poetry Comments: To: "Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@invalid.domain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Call for Papers Why Are You Laughing?: Humour in Experimental Poetry A Special Issue of Open Letter Guest-Edited by Jonathan Ball and Ryan = Fitzpatrick A common complaint of poetry pundits is that experimental poetry tends = to entail a humourless flaunting of critical theory. Yet within this = field, there are a number of poets that make use of humour as a literary = tactic. How exactly is humour used in experimental poetry and what are = its effects? In what ways could we theorize humour in terms of poetry = and language in general? Is humour useful as a destabilizing device, or = is it politically benign? Can humour make difficult poetry more = accessible to a general readership, or does it provide an excuse to = dismiss this work? We are seeking submissions of essays for a special issue of Open Letter = regarding these issues. Possible topics could include (but are limited = to): a.. humour and pop culture references in poetry b.. irony and/or the failure of irony c.. the absurd in poetry d.. humour as a coping mechanism e.. political uses of humour f.. humour as an attack on authority g.. shock humour and its poetic value h.. specific schools or movements for whom humour is an important tool Please send proposals (300-500 words) by January 1, 2009. If proposals = are accepted, then final papers will be due June 1, 2009. Submit in the = body of an e-mail to either jonathan@jonathanball.com or = rcfmod@gmail.com.=20 -30- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:07:56 -0700 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Jorgensen, Alexander" Subject: Old copies of Noon #4`- Want to obtain In-Reply-To: <809935F1E849455C96B46B51B23989FB@johnbedroom> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Am wondering if anyone might have a Noon #4 they would be interested in selling. While having work appearing in this issue, and loving this wonderful publication put together by Phillip Rowland, I have managed to give all of my copies away as gifts. Too, the issue is, naturally, out of print. An apology if this seems moderately out of place. Alexander Jorgensen --- On Sat, 10/25/08, John Cunningham wrote: > From: John Cunningham > Subject: searching for title > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 1:19 AM > I am attempting to obtain Steve McCaffrey's > 'Slightly Left of Thinking' from > Chax Press for review but cannot find an email address for > the publisher. Is > here anyone who can help me? > John Cunningham > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:47:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: searching for title In-Reply-To: <809935F1E849455C96B46B51B23989FB@johnbedroom> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed For a review copy please contact me at Chax@theriver.com charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com 411 N 7th ave, suite 103 tucson arizona 85705 520 620 1626 On Oct 24, 2008, at 4:19 PM, John Cunningham wrote: > I am attempting to obtain Steve McCaffrey's 'Slightly Left of > Thinking' from > Chax Press for review but cannot find an email address for the > publisher. Is > here anyone who can help me? > John Cunningham > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:00:53 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Furniture Press Announcements - Call for submissions and donations Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Please appropriate and disseminate to all your readers! Repost as you see f= it... 3. Furniture Press is a newly re-established independent press that special= izes in hand-made, small-run books, chapbooks and pamphlets. Thematically, = the press seeks to solicit and disseminate works that deal exclusively with= inter-textuality and appropriation. If you would like your work to be cons= idered for review and publication during our inaugural season, please send = between 10-20 poems (in DOC or RTF format) plus a statement that addresses = your work's relationship to inter-textuality and appropriation. We are look= ing for writers and works that/who can define these relationships in new an= d exciting ways. Send via email to appropriate.intertext@gmail.com with a s= tatement of intent and short bio. Add subject heading: Publication Review 2. We are currently seeking poems and poem-like objects for the new issue o= f Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics (#4). Once again, the issue of inter-= textuality and appropriation rears its head... Send via email to appropriat= e.intertext@gmail.com with a statement of intent and short bio. Limit submi= ssions to 5 poems. The reading period will end April 30, 2009. Add subject = heading: Ambit Review. 1. Furniture Press needs your help. In order to get the press up and runnin= g for the spring, we will need generous contributions from the community-at= -large. Donors can contribute any amount they wish, but those that donate $= 100 or more will be guaranteed a life-time subscription to all press materi= als and objects and will receive adequate space for advertising on our webs= ite and in our publications - plus you will have the option to become a mem= ber of the Towson Arts Collective for one year free! Simply write a check m= ade out to Furniture Press and mail to Towson Arts Collective c/o Furniture= Press, 406 York Road, Baltimore, MD 21211. We're 501(c)3 and that means yo= ur donation is tax deductable! --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 11:02:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anna Vitale Subject: new issue of textsound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Another sonic nose-dive off the cliffs of human consciousness? That's right! It's issue II of of textsound.org, the online audio journal of experimental poetry and music! Featuring work by Alice Notley, Carla Harryman & Austin Publicover, Kenneth Goldsmith, Rick Moody & Laura Vitale, Laura Elrick, and many more. It could be the only sound standing between you and complete poetic annihilation! So listen up. Some day you'll thank us! the editors, textsound.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 13:00:51 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Boston Area Small Press and Poetry Scene :How books are printed: From Letterpress to Print-On-Demand In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Hamilton Stone Editions does POD books, as do, I believe, Marsh Hawk =20 Press and many others. Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 22, 2008, at 12:58 PM, Diane DiPrima wrote: > I'm also writing to learn. I've been wrong before, and I've been =20 > around long enough to > know it. So=97if you've gotten this far in my screed=97I'd like to = ask: =20 > ARE there places that > actually produce Books on Demand that don't look horrible, and feel =20= > worse? I am asking > here about about publishers, and also about companies that produce =20 > these things. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:29:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 77 (2008) Five Poems by Nina Lindsay Nina Lindsay's first book of poetry is Today's Special Dish, published in 2007 by Sixteen Rivers Press. Recent poems of hers have appeared or are forthcoming in Ploughshares, Columbia Poetry Journal, Fence, Shenandoah, and Northwest Review. She was a recipient of a 2007 Dorothy Sargent Rosenberg Poetry Prize. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 05:27:53 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Furniture Press Blog Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Please visit the temporary Furniture Press site to see what's to be seen. http://appropriateintertext.wordpress.com/ Christophe Casamassima --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:10:03 -0700 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Comments: cc: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" , UK POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ In the past several months, I have been making "haptic" drawings in respons= e to poets reading their works in public.=A0 I tend to let the pen move in respo= nse to the contours, rhythms and levels of a pitch in a poets voice. The movement of the pen is a way of =A1dancing=A2 with the work - as well as responding -=A0 as it is em= bodied by the poet=A2s voice. There is nothing specifically narrative about process - the pen can take off from any part of the page, can layer back and forth across itself, etc. The "haptic"=A0 becomes a unique way of manifesting a poem and poet=A2s presence, as distinct in its own way as a still photograph, a video and/or an audio recording. A haptic is a kind of cardiograph of the process, much in the manner that Philip Whalen talks about the poem as a moving graph, etc. All of these works are done with a Faber Castell India Ink brush pen, often in combination with Micron hard-point pens of different guages (=A2fine=A2, =A1medium=A2, etc). If some of it looks familiar, the pieces have been periodically hoste= d on my=A0 blog; I thought it might be advantageous for comparative reasons= to create this little anthology with some commentary, some not. Poets include Taylor Brady, Rob Halpern, Philip Lamantia (as rendered by Brian Lucas, Andrew Joron, Neeli Cherkovski, Adam Cornford, & J. Vale), Chad Lietz, Judith Goldman, Aaron Shurin, Joanne Kyger and Ann Waldman. Delving further down in recent blog history will show pieces derived from b= oth live and recorded musians. As always, I appreciate any feedback, well, most feedback! Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:21:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: Poem by Holly Crawford & Punctuation by Clement Greenberg and a call for proposals to AC site In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Installation of the Bone AC[Institute Direct Unlimited Direct] 547 W. 27th St, 519-529 & north alcove NY, NY 10001 www.artcurrents.org The Bone, a concrete & process poem, punctuation by Clement Greenberg & poem by Holly Crawford. AC[Chapel] October 30-November 29 . . , . , , . , . _ ? ? . _ - , . , , . The Bone was first printed as a chapbook in 1997. The process removed all the words from Clement Greenberg's article Avant-Garde and the Kitsch (1939) what was revealed was a long concrete poem. The bones are a struncture and they are also thrown to the dogs. Remind you of our election, and many other processes, and just as easy to read. Performances of the piece: Beyond Test Festival 2002 Beyond Baroque and Bowery Poetry Project as punctuation performance in 2005. The Chapel is located at the far north end of the 5th floor. The space is open for viewing when the building is open to the public-Monday-Saturday 9-6 pm. Thursday night until 9 pm. It is 180 sq ft. with one large arched window and an exit sign. Call for proposals: This announcement is also a call for other work for in this space as well as our blackboard wall. Call for visual or concrete poetry and text to be written or installed on our walls by us or you. AC[Institute Direct Unlimited Direct] 547 W. 27th St, 519-529 & north alcove NY, NY 10001 www.artcurrents.org Christine Licata, Gallery Manager cl@artcurrents.org Holly Crawford, Ph.D. Director hc@artcurrents.org AC is an non-profit, 501 (3) c, and experimental space ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 06:13:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: obtaining review copy from Gegensatz Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am wanting to obtain a review copy of 'The Gas Heart' by Tristan Tzara (Author), Eric v.d. Luft (Translator) published by Gegensatz Press. Can anyone advise as to a contact email address? John Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 04:35:14 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Jeff Hilson (UK) & Andrew Lundwall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out good new stuff from UK poet Jeff Hilson and Wisconsin's own Andre= w Lundwall on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 =A0 Cheers, =A0 Adam Fieled=A0=A0 =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:24:22 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Schultz Subject: TINFISH 18.5: THE BOOK is in the house! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii TINFISH 18.5: THE BOOK is in the house! Please have a look here: http://www.tinfishpress.com/18-5.html It's big and gorgeous! Aloha, Susan TINFISH 18.5: THE BOOK: POETRY, PUZZLES AND GAMES TINFISH 18.5: THE BOOK introduces five young poets from Hawai`i in a format modeled after the word puzzles and games books people carry onto airplanes as they go on vacation. Vacations and games are both respites from practical preoccupations; many people come to Hawai`i for their vacation. But there is another Hawai`i, too, one well known to its residents. This Hawai`i is riven by historical and ethnic conflicts, drug adiction, homelessness, economic downturns, environmental problems, and the near extinction of the Hawaiian language in the 20th century. The poets included here all write about these stern facts in beautiful poems, a paradox that befits the place itself. This interactive book is illustrated by five exceptional artists. $15 from Tinfish Press or Small Press Distribution (spdbooks.org). Poets: Kai Gaspar Ryan Oishi Sage Uilani Takehiro Jill Yamasawa Tiare Picard Curator: Lian Lederman Designer: Gaye Chan Artists: Sally French Isaac Parker Jason Teraoka Allison Uttley Jennifer Wofford http://www.tinfishpress.com/18-5.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:31:41 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Lazer, Hank" Subject: only one more week for big discount offer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ONLY ONE MORE WEEK FOR THE DEEP DISCOUNT OFFER... EXPIRES NOV 1... =20 Jerry's Poetics & Polemics has just arrived, and it's gorgeous. Ron's The Alphabet was the UA Press's best-selling title for September, and Moe's in Berkeley (where I read on Oct 21) sold out their initial shipment... =20 Hank Lazer =20 * =20 The University of Alabama Press is proud to announce its latest offerings in the Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series: Poetics & Polemics, 1980-2005 by Jerome Rothenberg and The Alphabet by Ron Silliman. Purchase one or both of these publications at a 30-percent discount and you can receive, as a bonus, two of our bestsellers from the MCP series for $5.00 each: Another South: Experimental Writing in the South edited by Bill Lavender and Differentials: Poetry, Poetics, Pedagogy by Marjorie Perloff. (See below for pricing and ISBNs required for ordering.) To purchase a copy of any of these titles at the discounted offer, good through November 1, 2008, just call our warehouse in Chicago toll-free at (800) 621-2736 or locally at (773) 702-7000 and mention sales code FL-109-08. As always, we invite you to forward this e-mail to any of your colleagues who you think might be interested, or suggest names and addresses to which we should send future mailings. If you have any questions, please contact me directly at rminder@uapress.ua.edu or 205-348-1566. =20 Rebecca Todd Minder Advertising, Direct Mail, and Exhibits Manager The University of Alabama Press Box 870380, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0380 rminder@uapress.ua.edu =20 205.348.1566 * 205.348.9201 fax =20 Poetics & Polemics "The significance of Jerome Rothenberg's animating spirit looms larger every year. . . . [He] is the ultimate 'hyphenated' poet: critic-anthropologist-editor-anthologist-performerteacher-translator, to each of which he brings an unbridled exuberance and an innovator's insistence on transforming a given state of affairs." - Charles Bernstein 6 x 9 / 360 pages (cloth, ISBN 978-0-8173-1627-3): $43.75 USD (30% discount) (paper, ISBN 978-0-8173-5507-4): $20.97 USD (30% discount) =20 The Alphabet "Ron Silliman's ongoing long poem The Alphabet . . . mingles quotidian observation, linguistic philosophical reflection, and street-level social critique to produce as vivid, systemic, and cumulatively moving an account of contemporary life as any poet now writing."- Times Literary Supplement 6 x 9 / 952 pages (cloth, ISBN 978-0-8173-1618-1): $59.50 USD (30% discount) (paper, ISBN 978-0-8173-5493-0): $27.97 USD (30% discount) =20 Another South (paper, ISBN 978-0-8173-1241-1): $5.00 USD =20 Differentials (paper, ISBN 978-0-8173-5128-1): $5.00 USD =20 Domestic shipping: $5.00 for the first book and $1.00 for each additional book Canada residents add 7% GST International shipping: $8.50 per book =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:34:49 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Roy Exley Subject: Stephen Vincent Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Although 'driven by a different engine', your 'haptic' works, aeshetically at least, are reminiscent of the works of the 'Tachist' artists of the 50's and 60's such as Henri Michaux or Mark Tobey, although their drawings and paintings were either drug-inspired or spiritually driven, they had that same spontaneity of the line, which to some extent Jackson Pollock's 'action paintings also espoused. I imagine that as you develop these works more, a greater distinction will emerge between the rhythms and cadences of the different poets you engage with and perhaps more punctuation (visual) and counterpoint. I like the energy of these works, and their apparent portability and accessibility. Keep it going. I would be interested to know the responses of the poets featured here. Roy Exley. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:42:22 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Call Me Waiter by Joe Torra Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Call Me Waiter. Joseph Torra. (Pressed Wafer 9 Columbus Sq. Boston, MA $= 10) Review by Doug Holder =20 Joe Torra, poet, writer, and publisher, has lived down the block from me = in=20 Somerville, Mass. for many years. For the longest time I have heard about= his=20 literary accomplishments, be it his critically-acclaimed novel =93Gas Sta= tion,=94 his=20 literary journal =93lift,=94 his numerous poetry collections, etc=85 When= I asked him=20 what he was doing for a living he always told me that he was a waiter.=20= Recently though Torra, a man in his 50=92s, is now teaching at U/Mass Bos= ton. =20 Now Torra and I have a few things in common. We are contemporaries, and=20= like him I have always been involved in the writing life in one shape or = form.=20 Like Torra, I had many jobs that afforded me the time to write. I was nev= er a=20 waiter, but I worked as a dishwasher at the long-defunct Ken=92s Deli in = Copley=20 Square, Boston in the 70=92s, and I was a short order cook at the =93Fatt= ed Calf=94=20 in Boston, where I flipped burgers, and appointed little balls of cheese = on the=20 bloody pucks of meat. So I know what it is like to work in the food indus= try=20 and it ain=92t easy. =20 Torra, has written a memoir =93Call Me Waiter,=94 that recalls his many y= ears as a=20 server and his struggle to establish himself as a writer. The waiter jobs= he had=20 were transient, grueling, often well-paid, and most importantly provided = him=20 with the flexibility to write. Torra writes of his slow ascent as a write= r, and his=20 vocation as a means to an end: =20 =93My poetry was bringing a modicum of success and that is where I would = put=20 my energy. Poems were being accepted by various little magazines. After=20= reading at the Word of Mouth, I also gave readings around the city.=20 Friendships developed with writers I came in contact with. If it took wo= rking=20 shifts in a restaurant at night to support this life, so be it.=94 =20 Torra goes into detail not only about his working life, but also about th= e=20 subculture of restaurants: the gay waiters, the alcoholic managers, the=20= sociopath cooks, the parade of grad students, artists, musicians, support= ing=20 their lifestyle, and pocketing tips. In this passage Torra describes the = typical=20 reaction when he tells people at work that he is a writer: =20 =93I=92m always bemused at the way they react when they find out I am a w= riter.=20 It shouldn=92t come as any surprise. There are probably more artists in t= he=20 restaurant business, pound for pound, than any other industry, I=92ve wor= ked=20 with jazz, rock, folk and classical musicians, sculptures, dancers, femal= e=20 impersonators, actor, singers, photographers, poets and novelists=97I eve= n=20 worked with a guy who painted with spoons. Why else, they must wonder,=20= would someone my age be doing this=85? =20 I tell them . They look puzzled. If I publish novels what am I doing here= ? I=20 attempt an abridged account of the publishing industry. They=92re bewilde= red.=20 Then a friendly grin, perhaps they figured it out=97I can=92t be much of = a writer if=20 I publish books and tend bar for a living.=94 =20 At the end of the memoir Torra realizes that he is at the end of the line= with=20 being a waiter, and cuts himself loose. Although frightened, he enjoyed a= =20 sense of freedom: =20 =93I have no idea where I am headed, what the future holds. Images of wor= king=20 all night as a shelf stocker, a cab driver or variety store clerk cross m= y mind. I=20 know I must remain out of the business no matter what it takes. Something= is=20 out there for me. Standing on bike pedals to stretch my legs, I feel like= I am=20 floating.=94 =20 =93Call Me Waiter=94 is one of the better books I have read about the wri= ting life.=20 Torra has a workman-like style, that lays out the consuming need to write= ,=20 and the need to support it anyway you can=97no matter what, in a straight= , no=20 chaser fashion. Torra, born to a blue collar family in Medford, Mass brin= gs a=20 work ethic to his life and art that is a refreshing change from all the L= eft Bank,=20 Iowa Writers Workshop stuff that lines the bookshelves. =20 Highly recommended. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:31:24 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 10.27.08-11.02.08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII LITERARY BUFFALO 10.27.08-10.2.08 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the pubic unless other= wise noted. 10.28.08 Exhibit X Fiction and Prose The Alabama Boys and the Apocalypse: Fiction and Non-fiction Readings with Allen Shelton and Charles McNair Tuesday, October 28, 2008 =40 7:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper & THIS EVENT HAS BEEN CANCELED: Jewish Community Bookfair Diance Ackerman, The Zookeeper?s Wife: A War Story Tuesday, October 28, 2008 =40 7:30 PM Temple Beth Tzedek & Poetics Plus Alan Halsey Sponsored by: SUNY Buffalo Tuesday, October 28, 2008 =40 8:00 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, 453 Porter Ave. 10.29.08 BABEL/Just Buffalo Michael Ondaatje Reading and Q & A Wednesday, October 29, 8:00 PM Asbury Hall at Babeville, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tuppper THIS EVENT IS SOLD OUT. WE WILL NOT BE DOING A CLOSED CIRCUIT BROADCAST FOR THIS EVENT. 10.30.08 Poetics Plus Geraldine Monk Sponsored by: SUNY Buffalo Thursday, October 30, 2008 =40 8:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper ___________________________________________________________________________ JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS? WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP http://www.justbuffalo.org/docs/Writer_Critique_Group.pdf ___________________________________________________________________________ JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:46:08 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Furniture Press Poetry Prize Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Furniture Press Poetry Prize Deadline: June 30, 2009 Judges: tba The 1st annual Furniture Press Poetry Prize will be awarded to the writer t= hat best exemplifies the poetics and particularities of Furniture Press=92 = editors and judges. Two judges will be invited to determine a manuscript=92s =93pressability=94= and will work with anonymous, unidentified texts. Only the editor of Furni= ture Press will know the true identity of the applicants and their work. Ea= ch text will be assigned a number and distributed to the judges. After the first round of readings the judges will assign three finalists. T= he winner of the Prize will receive a publishing contract in which the winn= ing manuscript will be published as a chapbook. S/he will also receive 25 c= opies of the chapbook. The remaining finalists will have samples of their w= ork published in an issue of Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics. All appli= cants will receive a copy of the chapbook. Please follow these guidelines when submitting an application: 1. Send 1 unpublished manuscript per entry. It must be between 20-50 pages = in length of poetry and its derivatives. 2. Send a $10 fee per manuscript submitted. 100% of the cash goes to the pr= essing and publishing of the winning chapbooks. Editors and judges do not g= et kickbacks. Please send checks or money orders only, made out to Furnitur= e Press. 3. Send manuscripts to Furniture Press Poetry Prize c/o Towson Arts Collect= ive, 406 York Road, Towson, MD 21204. We strongly encourage you to send us work - it=92s also a very good way to = catch the attention of the editors who may want to publish your work in the= future, despite if or not you win the prize. --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:47:44 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Call for Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics / Issue IV Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics / Issue IV Reading period: October 1, 2008-April 30, 2009 The editors of Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics are seeking texts/object= s that address issues of inter-textuality and appropriation in all formats,= genres and outtakes. Please send (no more than) 8 pages of text (poems) or 5 images (JPEG, PDF, = GIF) or 5,000 words (fiction / essays / theory / criticism) to appropriate.= intertext@gmail.com or Furniture Press c/o Towson Arts Collective, 406 York= Road, Towson, MD 21204. Please include a return address and eMail so we may contact you upon accept= ance. If you would like us to return your manuscripts please provide an SAS= E with sufficient postage. All materials without a way home get tossed in t= he shredder and made into book covers. --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:19:39 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andrea Selch Subject: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we can start to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are printed on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they still come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd love to hear your thoughts. --Andrea Selch ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 15:42:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Call Me Waiter by Joe Torra In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wonderful post! I'll get the book. And save the post to share with my writing community. This reminded me of the early 1990s back in Bengal when I began to write poetry. Rather unusual, the only contemporary poet I could befriend happened to be a young farmer. He lived in a remote village and came from a family of 10 people crammed in a little hut. The household made $800 annually. For a third of the year they could afford one paltry meal and one snack a day. This guy was shaping out to be a family rebel wanting to opt out of a farmer's life for some kind of technical school. It was strange indeed for someone like me, fairly upper middle class & sinfully urban, to bond with a country mouse like him. His poetry reeked of an intensely powerful innocence which I might have broken my head against, but was never to come. A common friend visited his country farm once. His father was sick that morning, so he had to take the plow-cattle to the field. It had rained the whole week. The fields were muddy. The common friend asked if he could be of any help. If he could take off his shoes and join him in the fields ? (Indian farmers usually go barefeet into the fields) The guy thought for a second and said - "Why don't you go to the country store, buy something for the peahen (the only other living stock in the farm)? She hasn't eaten anything past three days. Besides, we had cobras in the field. Two of my neighbors died last week. You are a guest, so ...." Our common friend fed the peahen and left the farm. This young man didn't complete technical school. He went back to his farm which remains as wretched as it was back then. The parents are gone. Passed away. So are the two old birth-blind aunts. The guy married. Had a son. There are 6 people now instead of 10. Living in a 800 sq. ft cottage. He still writes, has authored 5 books of poetry since then. The last time he wrote to me he said -"The non-expectant life of an Indian farmer has at least brought me a rare joy. The joy of living to write. Anything I write is surely more valuable than my own life, anything I earn from writing can buy me something I can't otherwise buy." The cobras still rule the fields in the monsoon. aryanil -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Holder Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 9:42 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Call Me Waiter by Joe Torra Call Me Waiter. Joseph Torra. (Pressed Wafer 9 Columbus Sq. Boston, MA $10) Review by Doug Holder Joe Torra, poet, writer, and publisher, has lived down the block from me in Somerville, Mass. for many years. For the longest time I have heard about his literary accomplishments, be it his critically-acclaimed novel "Gas Station," his literary journal "lift," his numerous poetry collections, etc. When I asked him what he was doing for a living he always told me that he was a waiter. Recently though Torra, a man in his 50's, is now teaching at U/Mass Boston. Now Torra and I have a few things in common. We are contemporaries, and like him I have always been involved in the writing life in one shape or form. Like Torra, I had many jobs that afforded me the time to write. I was never a waiter, but I worked as a dishwasher at the long-defunct Ken's Deli in Copley Square, Boston in the 70's, and I was a short order cook at the "Fatted Calf" in Boston, where I flipped burgers, and appointed little balls of cheese on the bloody pucks of meat. So I know what it is like to work in the food industry and it ain't easy. Torra, has written a memoir "Call Me Waiter," that recalls his many years as a server and his struggle to establish himself as a writer. The waiter jobs he had were transient, grueling, often well-paid, and most importantly provided him with the flexibility to write. Torra writes of his slow ascent as a writer, and his vocation as a means to an end: "My poetry was bringing a modicum of success and that is where I would put my energy. Poems were being accepted by various little magazines. After reading at the Word of Mouth, I also gave readings around the city. Friendships developed with writers I came in contact with. If it took working shifts in a restaurant at night to support this life, so be it." Torra goes into detail not only about his working life, but also about the subculture of restaurants: the gay waiters, the alcoholic managers, the sociopath cooks, the parade of grad students, artists, musicians, supporting their lifestyle, and pocketing tips. In this passage Torra describes the typical reaction when he tells people at work that he is a writer: "I'm always bemused at the way they react when they find out I am a writer. It shouldn't come as any surprise. There are probably more artists in the restaurant business, pound for pound, than any other industry, I've worked with jazz, rock, folk and classical musicians, sculptures, dancers, female impersonators, actor, singers, photographers, poets and novelists-I even worked with a guy who painted with spoons. Why else, they must wonder, would someone my age be doing this.? I tell them . They look puzzled. If I publish novels what am I doing here? I attempt an abridged account of the publishing industry. They're bewildered. Then a friendly grin, perhaps they figured it out-I can't be much of a writer if I publish books and tend bar for a living." At the end of the memoir Torra realizes that he is at the end of the line with being a waiter, and cuts himself loose. Although frightened, he enjoyed a sense of freedom: "I have no idea where I am headed, what the future holds. Images of working all night as a shelf stocker, a cab driver or variety store clerk cross my mind. I know I must remain out of the business no matter what it takes. Something is out there for me. Standing on bike pedals to stretch my legs, I feel like I am floating." "Call Me Waiter" is one of the better books I have read about the writing life. Torra has a workman-like style, that lays out the consuming need to write, and the need to support it anyway you can-no matter what, in a straight, no chaser fashion. Torra, born to a blue collar family in Medford, Mass brings a work ethic to his life and art that is a refreshing change from all the Left Bank, Iowa Writers Workshop stuff that lines the bookshelves. Highly recommended. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:19:21 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha Cinader Mims Subject: L&BH Radio Hour Oct 28 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed My featured guest for the L&BH Radio Hour on Tuesday October 28 at 8pm will be Mark Baldrich, one of the organizers of the 12th Annual Watershed Environmental Poetry Festival. The poetry festival takes place in Berkeley, CA from noon-4pm. This event was started by Robert Hass when he was U.S. Poet Laureate from 1995-97. It is a joint effort of Ecology Center/Berkeley Farmers' Market, Poetry Flash, and EcoCity Builders. We should also be joined by a couple poets TBA from the event. As always, there is an open mic for poets to call in with a poem. I also take calls about arts opportunities, arts events, or your thoughts on the state of the arts. The call in number is 718-506-1481. Web Address for live broadcast: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/listenandbeheard Archives at: http://www.listenandbeheard.net I have some arts opportunities announcements for radio producers and visual artists this week, some event announcements and my pick for the week. If time permits my editorial is about a New Deal for the Arts. But I would rather hear from you! (You can always read my editorials at http://listenandbeheard.net/artsnews/category/letter- from-the-editor/ Please, listen and be heard! Wishing you Peace and Poetry martha cinader mims Martha Cinader Mims Listen & Be Heard Network editor@listenandbeheard.net http://www.listenandbeheard.net Get Skype and call me for free. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Ana_Bo=BEi=E8evi=E6?= Subject: This Thursday! 6:30 pm! State of the Union reading! Asbhery, Chelotti, Ellis, Flynn, Knox, Myles, Svalina, Van der Vliet Oloomi, Willis and Zucker! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline New Yorkers and neighbors, come rally! Bring friends! and let's flame into the election week together. *State of the Union: A Poetry Reading* *John Ashbery, Dan Chelotti, Thomas Sayers Ellis, Nick Flynn, Caroline Knox, Eileen Myles, Mathias Svalina, Azareen Van der Vliet Oloomi, Elizabeth Willis and Rachel Zucker * October 30, Thursday, 6:30pm The Amie and Tony James Gallery The Graduate Center, CUNY 365 Fifth Avenue at 34th Street New York, NY ~Sponsored by Wave Books and The Center for the Humanities~ William Carlos Williams wrote: "It is difficult/to get the news from poems/ yet men die miserably every day/ for lack/ of what is found there." Join the contributors to the Wave Books anthology *State of the Union: 50 Political Poems* to get the news in Linda Pollack's Habeas Lounge in the week of the Presidential election! THE EVENT IS FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC For more information about the Habeas Lounge exhibit, visit http://habeasindex.org/. Visit the anthology here: http://www.wavepoetry.com/catalog/66-state-of-the-union?page=&by=new Contact: Ana Bozicevic, abozicevic@gc.cuny.edu http://centerforthehumanitiesgc.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:30:01 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30TH CERVENA BARVA PRESS READING IN NEW YORK CITY KGB BAR 85 EAST 4TH STREET NYC 7:00 PM FREE READERS: ANDREY GRITSMAN, ROGER SEDARAT, AND ROBERTA SWANN SPECIAL GUEST: DENIS EMORINE HOPE TO SEE YOU AT THE READING! Thank you. gloria Mindock editor@cervenabarvapress.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:54:28 -0700 Reply-To: ndm_g@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Cannot Exist--submissions deadline extended for post-election poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, all! Submissions for CANNOT EXIST #4 have been extended through November 7th, partly for the hell of it and partly in case anyone writes any brilliant poems in the immediate wake of the election. Check out the guidelines at http://cannotexist.blogspot.com. cheers, Andy G. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 09:28:27 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nov 6-16: Goat Island in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi poetics friends....if you have some time, i recommend going to see goat island's performance in nyc. after more than 20 years of collaboration, this is the chicago group's final piece. source materials include: poems by robert creeley and emily dickinson, hybrid mathematics, lenny bruce's last routine, saint francis's farewell instructions, the last minute of j. s. bach's art of the fugue, stanley kunitz on composing a goodbye, the hagia sophia in istanbul, and much more. there's also a lovely web-based writing project for everyone to contribute to. onwards, jennifer karmin THE LASTMAKER "We end Goat Island in order to make a space for the unknown that will follow. We intend this ending to present itself as a beginning, and we invite you to join us on the occasion." http://www.goatislandperformance.org November 6-16 7:30pm Thursday-Sunday at Performance Space 122 150 First Avenue on the corner of East 9th Street (East Village) http://www.ps122.org/performances/the_lastmaker.html Tickets from $25 $15 for students/seniors $10 for P.S. 122 members Promotional codes: FF15 drops the price of a single ticket to $15 FF241 will get people 2 tickets for the price of 1 WEB-BASED WRITING PROJECT The Last Performance is created to evolve alongside the creation and performance of The Lastmaker. The work is being collectively authored by Goat Island, invited artists and critics, the Goat Island community-at-large, and you. http://thelastperformance.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: 20 new ebooks added to our Wilde Reading Room =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AD_?= all free! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20 20 new ebooks added to our Wilde Reading Room =AD all free! http://www.blazevox.org/ebook.htm =20 Come and check out our updated ebook page, the Wilde Reading Room. =20 We have added 20 new titles of great materials that are sure to please. All books are rich, thick and buttery, too! =20 Our goal is to get great poetry into your hands and in we have 75 titles from great authors like Dale Smith, Raymond Federman, Amy King, Sheila E. Murphy and many others. These are full size books of poetry from wonderful poets you know or should know! All our ebooks are completely free in PDF format for easy accessibility to all and relatively green. These books are ready for download now on our ebook page here: http://www.blazevox.org/ebook.htm =20 =20 =20 Nation=ADState adam strauss =20 Who Is There adrian kien =20 Horatio Alger's Keys Alan Ramon Clinton =20 Zero Summer Andrew Demcak =20 Aphasia Beth Balousek =20 Grubb charles freeland =20 PLAYING THE AMPLITUDES Christopher Rizzo =20 Whiskerhead Dreams the Dread Chicken David Brennan =20 Among the Interrogated Felino Soriano =20 New Wave Phil Cordelli =20 Becoming X Jeanpaul Ferro =20 Kick the Stones Jennifer Wolfe =20 Night Music Kristina Marie Darling =20 The Man Who Followed Me Home From Work - Sean Kilpatrick =20 Aid & A Bet Gian Lombardo =20 Solve For Jill Darling =20 HORRIFIC CONFECTION Juliet Cook =20 71 Leaves Mark Cunningham =20 Cracked Altimeter by Joe Milford | Vol. 1 Cracked Altimeter by Joe Milford | Vol. 2 Cracked Altimeter by Joe Milford | Vol. 3 =20 Bagpipe Hero=20 Geoffrey Gatza =20 =20 Legal Arguments=20 Francis Raven =20 =20 Codex Beauty=20 Thierry Brunet =20 Carrier of the Seed Jeffrey Side =20 Beams Adam Fieled =20 Enclosures Jennifer K. Dick =20 Windshields: a chapbook of playlet-poems Benjamin Buchholz =20 The City of Omni+Baal Davis Schneiderman =20 L E T T E R S By Michael Gessner =20 American Singularity Patrick Chapman =20 Inside Out, Upside Down John J. Trause =20 =20 Soundings Gautam Verma =20 TV poems Scott Pierce =20 My Vote Counts Dale Smith =20 Square Planet Raymond Federman =20 Cataclysm 535=20 by Geoffrey Gatza =20 =20 If you haven=B9t read these, they=B9re still new to you! =20 Sheila E. Murphy =20 Jeff Harrison =20 Joel Chace =20 William James Austin =20 mIEKAL aND =20 Michael Bogue =20 Lawerance Upton =20 Francis Raven =20 Shane Allison =20 =20 Ed Taylor =20 T. Knapsack =20 Amy King =20 William Keckler =20 =20 Scott Malby =20 http://www.blazevox.org/ebook.htm =20 =20 And for more free books, check out our moblis in mobli series here http://www.blazevox.org/mim.htm =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:57:48 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: new(ish) on rob's clever blog; -- Various Positions: a life of Leonard Cohen -- rob wants to fix that which has been broken; -- Arc Poetry Magazine's thirtieth birthday party! -- festival notes, again & again -- Michael Blouin's Chase & Haven (Coach House) -- John Ralston Saul: A Fair Truth -- The first days of festival, Ottawa -- Ongoing notes: some Canadian journals (dANDelion, Descant) -- Arc magazine: The Lampman-Scott Award longlist reading; -- This is your Brain, This is your Brain on Thanksgiving -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- Reading and Writing Glengarry County: writing the Long Sault hydro electric project -- David O'Meara's Noble Gas, Penny Black (Brick Books) -- P-QUEUE Vol. 5: C A R E -- Lampman-Scott Award Reading : Showcasing Contenders for the 2008 Award -- during, by Karen Houle (Gaspereau Press) -- you cannot step twice (poem) -- Meredith Quartermain's Matter (BookThug) and Nightmarker (NeWest Press) -- poet laureate map of canada -- Watermarks, by Joanne Page (Pedlar Press) -- new from above/ground press: Peter F. Yacht Club #12 -- ongoing notes: late September, 2008 (Helen Hajnoczky, bytheskinofmeteeth; Gregory Betts, Trainwreck Press; Cannot Exist; The Antigonish Review, Helen Guri) -- three upcoming events/launches; -- an open letter to Stephen Harper -- the ottawa small press book fair -- WELCOME TO EARTH, poems for alien(s) by Amanda Earl (BookThug) -- from the centre to the periphery: an interview with Barry McKinnon -- house: a (tiny) memoir -- Crabwise to the Hounds, by Jeramy Dodds (Coach House) -- Pathologies: A Life in Essays, by Susan Olding (Freehand Books) -- poem written in eden mills (poem) -- an old poem embedded in thoughts on the ottawa river -- Cypress by Barbara Klar (Brick Books) -- an old poem embedded in thoughts of airports and found materials -- Eden Mills Writers' Festival, September 2008 -- colonel by drive: a rideau collapse (poem) -- Alberta Dispatch: interviews & writing from Edmonton -- ART THAT FLOWS: How to Get Your Creative Work Done with Allison Gresik -- poem written in sainte-adele (poem) -- another old poem embedded in thoughts on old poets etcetera... www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at the alberta, writing blog www.albertawriting.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com + some other new things at the Chaudiere Books blog, www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:41:11 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution ive managed to find some good quality, recently producing a title on the new espresso book machine that the university of alberta bookstore purchased last fall..... > >I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of >print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we can start >to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are printed >on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they still >come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing >extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd love to hear >your thoughts. >--Andrea Selch > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 23:38:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Some YouTube and video of recent Providence and Alps work - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Some videos of recent Providence and Alps work - With Foofwa d'Imobilite, Azure Carter, Daniel Byers, Robert Kim, Alan Sondheim http://www.alansondheim.org/bridgeplatform.mp4 Foofwa has put up the following on YouTube: dorsey http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ18Cr570zU hell http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=xwtqw87xDcI cliffers http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=UEgdVSLSJ58 follow1 http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=hxeWsLp9l_g interrupt http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=bIMU1fYsMoE columnharp http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=FEJoZks6xAU wrytcave http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=gD22gQdy1wI ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:13:12 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Roche Subject: Rochester-Area Readings & Poetry Events Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Some upcoming events: Oct. 31, 7:30; Nov. 1, 7:30; Nov. 2, 5 pm As the Dead Prey Among Us Richard Haisma=B9s one-man show based on the poetry of Charles Olson Physikos Dance Studio, Village Gate, Rochester $5 students and seniors; $10 others =20 Monday, November 3, 8 pm: Susan Deer Cloud and John Roche Lovin=B9 Cup cafe, Park Point, Jefferson Rd and John St., Henrietta (adjacent to RIT campus) Free=20 Thursday, November 6, 4 pm: Catherine Faurot, Eugene Stelzig, and John Roche Lederer Gallery, Brodie Fine Arts Building, SUNY/Geneseo Free John Roche jfrgla@rit.edu =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 04:23:50 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "8 1/2 x 11"". Rest of header flushed. From: Mitch Taylor Subject: new zine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable side-stapled =0A8 1/2 x 11"=0Apoems=0A& disruptive prose=0A&/or cartoons=0A= =0AMuthafucka=0A=0Ais reading work until Thanksgiving=0A=0Asend to Mitch Ta= ylor=0Amitchmailer@yahoo.com=0A(due to couch-surfing cannot accept paper su= bmissions at this time)=0A=0Ato be released January 2009=0Apays one copy & = eternal glory=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:12:54 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Print on demand is simply ultra small run digital printing. In theory the thousadth book and the first are identical, barring problems that occur no matter how the image is applied to the paper--glitches in inking, folding and binding. In all cases a human should be doing quality control. When that fails the printer should redo the book. I've been having all of Junction Press' books printed digitally for the past several years and will soon digitize all back titles. All printers screw up occasionally, and my luck with offset printers was in general considerably worse than with digital printers. In particular, they were far less pleasant about redoing badly-made books. Maybe your publisher should find a different digital house. Mark At 02:19 PM 10/27/2008, you wrote: >I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of >print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we can start >to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are printed >on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they still >come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing >extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd love to hear >your thoughts. >--Andrea Selch > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:54:46 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jill Chan Subject: Poetry Sz: demystifying mental illness, Issue 27 now online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii New work by: Megan Burns Jefferson Hansen Lois Marie Harrod Michael Lee Johnson Christopher Barnes Linda Graham Laurie Cook http://poetrysz. blogspot. com Submissions now open for Issue 28. Send 4-6 poems and a short bio in the body of your email to poetrysz@yahoo.com . Please read the guidelines first. Thank you. regards J Chan editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:39:52 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Plain covers are a good solution. Another might be to make something of the misaligned printings and various other potential problems. Put the original design on a website. Put a note inside encouraging readers to send in the variations they receive. Have people vote on their favorite. Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.elizabethkateswitaj.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 01:48:18 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: NYC/Boog City's Election Night Extravaganza This Tues., Nov. 4 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ----------------- =20 Boog City=B9s Classic Albums Live presents A 2008 Election Night Extravaganza This Tues., Nov. 4, 7:30 p.m. Free with a two-drink minimum Sidewalk Caf=E9 94 Ave. A NYC featuring =20 R.E.M.=B9s Green Live =20 performed by =20 Liv Carrow, Peter Dizozza, Dan Fishback, Casey Holford + Daoud Tyler-Ameen, Phoebe Kreutz, and Ben Krieger =20 =20 Political Poets =20 CAConrad, Vivian Demuth, Eliot Katz, Frank Sherlock, and Nathaniel Siegel =20 and =20 Solo Musical Sets =20 Peter Dizozza and Phoebe Kreutz Hosted and curated by Casey Holford and Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum =20 Directions: F/V to 2nd Ave., L to 1st Ave. Venue is at E.6th St. =20 For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664), editor@boogcity.com Performers=B9 bios and websites follow album running order R.E.M., Green =20 *Dan Fishback --Pop Song 89 =20 *Ben Krieger --Get Up --You Are the Everything =20 *Peter Dizozza --Stand =20 *Phoebe Kreutz --World Leader Pretend --The Wrong Child =20 *Liv Carrow --Orange Crush --Turn You Inside-Out =20 *Casey Holford + Daoud Tyler-Ameen --Hairshirt --I Remember California --11th untitled song =20 =20 Bios: =20 **Boog City http://www.welcometoboogcity.com Boog City is a New York City-based small press now in its 17th year and Eas= t Village community newspaper of the same name. It has also published 35 volumes of poetry and various magazines, featuring work by Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti among others, and theme issues on baseball, women=B9s writing, and Louisville, Ky. It hosts and curates two regular performance series=8Bd.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press, where each month a non-NYC small press and its writers and a musical act of their choosing is hosted at Chelsea=B9s ACA Galleries; and Classic Albums Live, where up to 13 local musical acts perform a classic album live at venues including The Bowery Poetry Club, Cake Shop, CBGB=B9s, and The Knitting Factory. Past albums have included Elvis Costello, My Aim is True; Nirvana, Nevermind; and Liz Phair, Exile in Guyville. **Liv Carrow http://www.myspace.com/livcarrow =20 Navel gazing, highly biographical, cathartic lyricism, obnoxious punning, moot metaphor, unabashed self-consciousness, and run-on sentences of self-promotion are qualities nary as compelling as in the case of NYC's Liv Carrow. Her songs are like the little animals that your 4-year-old nieces and nephews make out of play-doh; lumpy yet distinguishable in form, rudimentary to the point of psychedelic complexity, dry and crumbly on the outside but all kinds of squishy on the inside. =20 The mysterious and oddly lovable bassist from ecstatically weird acts Huggabroomstik and Griffin and the True Believers takes the scenic back roa= d to your heart with her porch-swing guitar folk songs and clever-ish observations on life, death, love, health food, human reproduction, the unseen world of cosmic currents, awkward crushes, metaphysics, and, everyone's favorite, despair. =20 Her influences run the gauntlet from Patsy Cline to Kate Bush to Michael Gira. Her debut album, It's About Time, recorded and produced by Huggabroomstik co-frontman Dashan Coram, is available through Olive Juice Music. =20 =20 **CAConrad=20 http://www.CAConrad.blogspot.com http://www.phillysound.blogspot.com/ =20 CAConrad is the son of white trash asphyxiation whose childhood included selling cut flowers along the highway for his mother and helping her shoplift. He escaped to Philadelphia where he lives and writes with the PhillySound poets. He is the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press), (Soma)tic Midge (Faux Press), and The Book of Frank (Chax Press), and, forthcoming next year, advanced ELVIS course (Soft Skull Press), and a collaboration with poet Frank Sherlock titled The City Real & Imagined: Philadelphia Poems (Factory School). =20 =20 **Vivian Demuth http://www.poetspath.com/exhibits/viviandemuth/ http://viviandemuth.wordpress.com/ =20 A Canadian-American poet and fiction writer, Vivian Demuth is the author of the novel, Eyes of the Forest, and the poetry collection, Breathing Nose Mountain. Her work has appeared in a variety of U.S. and Canadian journals and anthologies, including: The Boreal Factor, Writing the Land, Long Shot, and Political Affairs. =20 =20 **Peter Dizozza http://www.cinemavii.com/ =20 Peter Dizozza enjoys songwriting and musical theatre production. He perform= s monthly song sets at Sidewalk Caf=E9. In 2007, La Mama E.T.C. produced his musical play, TentagatneT. As director of the newly reopened WAH Theatre, his productions include Prepare to Meet Your Maker, The Golf Wars, The Eleventh Hour, The Sea Heiress, and Paradise Found. His albums are availabl= e through Olive Juice Music. =20 =20 **Dan Fishback http://www.danfishback.com/ =20 As a solo artist and with his band Cheese On Bread, Dan Fishback has released four full-length albums in the past four years. As a performance artist, he received the 2007-2009 Six Points Fellowship to develop his new play, You Will Experience Silence, which will open in the spring of 2009. I= n 2006, P.S.122 mounted a mini-festival of his work in "No Direction Homo: Th= e Many Identical Personae of Dan Fishback." His other theater work has been presented at Dixon Place, Galapagos Art Space, and Brooklyn Arts Exchange. His writing has been published in Mentsh: On Being Jewish and Queer (Alyson Books) and in his two self-published zines, A Very Small Hole and What Have They Done To You? Fishback sat on the review panel for the 2008 Foundation for Jewish Culture New Jewish Theater Projects Grant. He has shared stages with Ani Difranco and Kimya Dawson as a member of the punk dance troupe Underthrust. He has toured North America, Europe, and Canada, and frequentl= y performs at universities across the country. =20 =20 **Casey Holford + Daoud Tyler-Ameen http://www.caseyholford.com/ http://www.myspace.com/artsororityforgirls =20 Casey Holford was raised on a diet of folk music and comic books in Massachusetts. He started playing piano at 12, picked up his mother's guita= r for coffeehouse and DIY shows at 14, and was performing regularly in the Boston-Providence songwriter circuit by 18. Now, living in Brooklyn at age 27, he has recorded three self-released solo albums, two EPs, and a 7-inch on RiYL records. He moonlights in the bands Outlines, Urban Barnyard, Dream Bitches, and Art Sorority for Girls, playing bass, electric, 12 string, and baritone guitars. Casey is also a prolific producer, helping to document hi= s community by working on projects with fellow bands and songwriters, most recently pop riot Cheese on Bread, visionary Dave Deporis, and upstart Creaky Boards. =20 Daoud Tyler-Ameen grew up on the lower east side of Manhattan. His songwriting career began in high school with a string of extra-credit projects about literary characters and the life cycles of plants. After graduation he started a new project called the Art Sorority for Girls, a collection of story-songs about the awful messes kids can get themselves into. Daoud's versatility as a drummer and multi-instrumentalist is the creative glue that has helped to hold Urban Barnyard, Outlines, and Cheese on Bread together. Daoud is working on Art Sorority's debut long player wit= h Casey, Major Matt Mason USA, and Andrew Hoepfner. =20 =20 **Eliot Katz http://www.poetspath.com/exhibits/eliotkatz/ =20 Poet and activist Eliot Katz is the author of five books of poetry, including Unlocking the Exits and When the Skyline Crumbles: Poems for the Bush Years. His forthcoming book, Love, War, Fire, Wind: Looking Out (North America's Skull), is a collaboration with the artist, William T. Ayton. =20 =20 **Ben Kreiger http://www.benkrieger.com/ =20 Ben often claims to be a Brooklyn songwriter. Anyone who meets him, however= , can immediately tell that he probably grew up in Cleveland. There was a short-lived campaign in the mid-'80s when everyone in Northeast Ohio had a bumper sticker that said, "New York May Be the Big Apple, But Cleveland's a Plum!" Ben has been a plum among the apples for 10 years. =20 In the summer of 2008 Ben took over from Lach as "Jay Leno of the Sidewalk.= " He books the club and runs the Open Stage on Monday nights. =20 His latest CD, Class Dismissed, is a concept record about community and the public school system. It is available through Fortified Records. He records himself and others at his home studio, The Rock Closet. He likes to record rock operas. =20 =20 **Phoebe Kreutz http://www.myspace.com/phoebekreutz =20 Phoebe Kreutz is a boozy floozy with a heart of gold. She sings silly songs about the things she likes best: boys and bars and vikings and tacos. =20 Growing up in New York's East Village, Phoebe learned a lot about all these things. She also learned a lot about rhyming from Dr. Seuss and the joys of thinly veiled social commentary from "He-Man" and "The Smurfs." =20 Now she's all grown up and still loving life in the big city. She gets to sing in all kinds of fun places like The Knitting Factory, Fez, Birdland, and The Sidewalk Caf=E9. It was there that she found the jolly antifolk scene= , which has nurtured and indulged her like a benevolent uncle these past few years. It was also there that she met the boys who would later join with he= r to become the world's greatest art-indie-rock band that only sings about animals in the city, Urban Barnyard. =20 =20 **Frank Sherlock http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Sherlock.html =20 Frank Sherlock is the co-author (with Brett Evans) of Ready-To-Eat Individual, an unofficial State-of-the-City of New Orleans in the Year 1 A.K. (After Katrina). His newest book, entitled Over Here is forthcoming from Factory School in January. =20 =20 **Nathaniel Siegel =20 Nathaniel Siegel is a poet, artist, and activist. On Nov. 19, he will be a featured artist at the Leslie/Lohman Gay Art Foundation in SoHo. His first chapbook is forthcoming from Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:09:21 -0700 Reply-To: heliopod@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Nelson Subject: doomsdays and super colliders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hope all is curiously good. Finished a few new digi-lit artworks and wanted to share it with you. would love your thoughts and feel more than free to share anywhere. Endings Eventually End http://www.secrettechnology.com/doomcount/endhere.html created by myself and Davin Heckman is a strange collection of interactive Doomsday Countdowns where the end days events are fictional oddness galore and just cause yer grand: Strange Hollows: 15 strange uses of black holes http://www.secrettechnology.com/blackholes/collider.html more cheers than cheers allow, Jason Nelson ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:49:29 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Skip Fox Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We might start by asking people like Geoffrey Gatza how he maintains the quality he does with BalzeVox. Maybe it's the printer (like BookSurge) = or the instructions the publisher gives the printer. It doesn't seem to be, = necessarily, the money. -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Andrea Selch Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 1:20 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we can = start to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are = printed on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they = still come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd love to = hear your thoughts.=20 --Andrea Selch =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:13:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: "Epidermis," Issue "4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline _______________ The fourth issue of "Epidermis" is now available online, at http://epidermis.randomflux.info There are works from Maria Damon Bob BrueckL Angela Genusa Jim Leftwich & Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Thomas Lowe Taylor Peter Ganick and Jeff Harrison Enjoy ! http://epidermis.randomflux.info "Epidermis" poetry magazine, with texts in English, innovative and refreshing, is edited by Jukka-Pekka Kervinen in Kitee, Finland. Best regards, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081028195816.03f4b690@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) The best POD service I've run into is bookmobile.com You would be hardpressed to tell the difference between traditionally produced books & their titles. They print a lot of books for a long list of university presses. They have choices of coverstock as well as several choices for interior paper. The downside of them is their pricing is only competitive over 50 copies. The rest of it is about your design & setup. I'm in the process of digitizing all 130 of Xexoxial's backlist so I know all too intimately the ins & outs of making digitally printed books stack up. ~mIEKAL On Oct 28, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Print on demand is simply ultra small run digital printing. In > theory the thousadth book and the first are identical, barring > problems that occur no matter how the image is applied to the paper-- > glitches in inking, folding and binding. In all cases a human should > be doing quality control. When that fails the printer should redo > the book. I've been having all of Junction Press' books printed > digitally for the past several years and will soon digitize all back > titles. All printers screw up occasionally, and my luck with offset > printers was in general considerably worse than with digital > printers. In particular, they were far less pleasant about redoing > badly-made books. Maybe your publisher should find a different > digital house. > > Mark > > At 02:19 PM 10/27/2008, you wrote: >> I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of >> print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we >> can start >> to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are >> printed >> on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they >> still >> come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing >> extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd >> love to hear >> your thoughts. >> --Andrea Selch ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 01:04:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Alan Sondheim Mail Archive + SL material MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed The Alan Sondheim Mail Archive (given the quantity of my work, this is wonderful I think. I am full of myself. Decklin Foster set this up and the site is lean and works really well. - Alan) This is an archive of works sent by Alan Sondheim to various mailing lists. You can read the most recent messages below, or browse by year: 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 There is also an Atom feed. If you notice any broken links, please contact Decklin Foster, who runs this site. Decklin Foster http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ =========================================== I am full of myself. Below, recent deconstruction Second Life. http://www.alansondheim.org/ circ jpgs object going offworld http://www.alansondheim.org/cutout1.mov Objects are added at the top of the stack, pushed down, collapse, disappear, sometimes return to the database, objects speed up, Julu Twine gains speedwheel, textures are body-skinned. =========================================== ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:51:11 -0800 Reply-To: Laurie Schneider & Crag Hill Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Laurie Schneider & Crag Hill Subject: NOW AVAILABLE: Jim McCrary's All That MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NOW AVAILABLE: Jim McCrary's All That ManyPenny Press is pleased to announce the release of All That by Jim McCrary. This collection of chapbooks, McCrary's first full-length book, spans over twenty years of the author's efforts. Channeling William Carlos Williams, Ed Dorn, Robert Grenier, Joanne Kyger and others on and within the airwaves, McCrary has created a body of poems that snips and snaps, chuckles and guffaws, tugs and strokes, kisses and bites. Steve Tills puts it this way: "Jim has devoted his spirit and heart to pursuits decidedly antithetical to self-aggrandizement. Quietly, he has followed a most courageous lineage of others also both gentle and careful in their approach to telling the truth and making it uniquely compelling. You' ll sometimes recognize that lineage when you take up All That. You'll frequently marvel at the quiet, substantive authenticity McCrary has achieved in the sometimes lonesome but always deeply communal turns his truly individuated, unequivocally human poeming has taken." Or as K. Silem Mohammad puts it: "Out of the wild Kansas plains comes a howling wind, and in that wind is a howling wolf, and in that wolf is a howling lamb, and in that lamb is a Russian doll with another Russion doll inside it, and inside that one another one, and inside that one a plastic pill bottle because one of the dolls got broken, and in that bottle one last Russian doll, and in that last doll another howling wind-and here we go all over again. Somewhere in there, probably around the first wind and the wolf, is the poetry of Jim McCrary, which is really really really really good." All That Including interview excerpt with Tom Beckett 171 pp. ISBN-13: 978-0-9798478-0-6 CONTACT AND ORDERING INFORMATION: ManyPenny Press 1111 E. Fifth St. Moscow, ID 83843 $15.95 + $3 postage Make checks payable to Crag Hill Bookstores should contact Crag Hill at cahill@wsu.edu to arrange for discounts. If you would like to order on-line, go to: http://www.lulu.com/content/4363355 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've done better with Sterling Pierce, and it's a real plus that they're local (NY suburb)--on occasion I've watched the covers come off the press. They print for a lot of the majors. There are now a lot of digital printers around the country. Check to see who's in the neighborhood. Mark At 10:41 AM 10/29/2008, you wrote: >The best POD service I've run into is bookmobile.com You would be >hardpressed to tell the difference between traditionally produced >books & their titles. They print a lot of books for a long list of >university presses. They have choices of coverstock as well as several >choices for interior paper. The downside of them is their pricing is >only competitive over 50 copies. > >The rest of it is about your design & setup. > >I'm in the process of digitizing all 130 of Xexoxial's backlist so I >know all too intimately the ins & outs of making digitally printed >books stack up. > > >~mIEKAL > > > >On Oct 28, 2008, at 7:12 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Print on demand is simply ultra small run digital printing. In >>theory the thousadth book and the first are identical, barring >>problems that occur no matter how the image is applied to the >>paper-- glitches in inking, folding and binding. In all cases a human should >>be doing quality control. When that fails the printer should redo >>the book. I've been having all of Junction Press' books printed >>digitally for the past several years and will soon digitize all back >>titles. All printers screw up occasionally, and my luck with offset >>printers was in general considerably worse than with digital >>printers. In particular, they were far less pleasant about redoing >>badly-made books. Maybe your publisher should find a different >>digital house. >> >>Mark >> >>At 02:19 PM 10/27/2008, you wrote: >>>I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of >>>print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we >>>can start >>>to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are >>>printed >>>on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they >>>still >>>come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing >>>extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd >>>love to hear >>>your thoughts. >>>--Andrea Selch > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:15:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable All forms of publishing have their limitations, and limitations can have their advantages if they're seen in the right light. A number of people hav= e asked me why Jed Birmingham and I are using print-on-demand publishing for our magazine Mimeo Mimeo, rather than making it a nice letterpress edition or using an actual mimeograph. I think of print-on-demand as the mimeograph for the 21st century: it's cheap, fast, and allows anyone with access to a computer the potential to become a publisher. That raises the question of quality control and editorial authority as it applies to the publisher, author and designer. The mediation of books by corporate publishing houses is still an issue, but one that is distinct from the circulation of writing in poetry circles such as this. The majority of the authors I read made their first appearance in print by way of the little magazine, small press, or through independent online sites. What would the face of poetry look lik= e if our reading was controlled by only a hand of major presses? With print-on-demand, a magazine or chapbook can materialize overnight, whereas = a letterpress edition would take months to produce and the cost (both overhea= d and retail) would be significantly higher then what it is now. That said, the materials and to some degree the dimensions are limitations, tho companies like Bookmobile will trim to size, and as we have seen in some Ugly Duckling Press books, they will accept the client's coverstock if a request is made in advance. =20 So I=B9m all in favor of companies (Lulu, Cafe Press, BookSurge, etc.) that allow writers to publish what they want, whenever they please at an affordable price, but the integrity of the design is still key, and I can only speak from experience when I say that books like Robert Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style or Ellen Lupton's Thinking with Type can be very useful for publishers and self-publishers who don't have any formal typographic training. As Bringhurst says in his foreword, "If you use this book as a guide, by all means leave the road when you wish. That is precisely the use of a road: to reach individually chosen points of departure. By all means break the rules, and break them beautifully, deliberately and well. That is one of the ends for which they exist." The computer poses few limitations in terms of design, and in some ways the freedom of programs like InDesign can be overwhelming. In Mimeo Mimeo, Jed and I have attempted to create a minimalist design based on classical proportions and conservative notions of legibility in order to honor and preserve the author=B9s intentions, and yet we=B9re perfectly content with the =B3no frills=B2 aesthetic of the journal. =20 As to perfect-bound books, spines are often misaligned, the trim size can vary significantly, and the fragile covers have the potential to become scuffed and scratched. Taking these things into account as one designs can help to hide the inherent shortcomings of the technology and production value (for instance, introducing an asymmetrical spine where the lettering doesn=B9t come too close to the front or rear covers will disguise the irregularity of the binding). That said, I feel strongly that the printers still have an obligation to stand behind their services, and make good on any shortcomings that are brought to their attention. Kyle =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:35:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20081028195816.03f4b690@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Lightning Source's cover colors seriously migrate over multiple printings; my Da3 color is becoming a greener yellow over time. I have not had good luck with bookmobile; they have done the gala *first printing* of Ray Bianchi's IMMEDIATE EMPIRE, now available in stores, in addition to two rounds of galleys for that book. Get it now, while you can get the rare *canary paper* print run!!! -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:54:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Julie Strand <25jnuts@GMAIL.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Upcoming Events @ Woodland Pattern ---- Saturday, Nov. 8 , 1-4pm WORKSHOP Writing Your Work Life: Transforming Workplace Realities into Powerful Narratives with Ellen Bravo - Sunday, Nov. 9, 2pm FEATURED READING Crayon #5 Release Reading with Peter O'Leary, Matthias Regan, David Pavelich, Tom Hibbard, and Roberto Harrison Saturday, Nov. 15, 1-3pm MASTER CLASS - Poetic Memoir and Lyrical Nonfiction: A Master Class with Katy Lederer Saturday, Nov. 15, 7pm FEATURED READING Katy Lederer & Noah Eli Gordon ---- Woodland Pattern Book Center 720 E. Locust St. Milwaukee, Wi 53212 (414) 263-5001 www.woodlandpattern.org www.woodlandpattern.blogspot.com http://www.myspace.com/woodlandpattern ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:12:53 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is not peculiar to digital printing, and in fact is more of a problem with offset, although it doesn't become an issue as often because offset runs tend to be larger and we tend to do subsequent printings less often, which means that usually we're dealing with only one set of inks. It's always easy to correct in digital--it's just a setting on a machine. One book that I did digitally managed to turn the author portrait from black and white to bilious green and white, although in the proof copy that I had approved it had been fine. Always get a proof done--the printer can be held to accounts for whatever differences. I showed the book to the printer, who promptly dumped the entire run and got a new run to me, this time with correct colors, in two days. There were no arguments, no ill feelings. It turned out that the guy who does their covers was out sick the day it was run--he had done the proofs. Mistakes happen. McNaughton and Gunn, on the other hand, ran out of a color in the middle of a print run on one of my books, as a result of which the run wasn't uniform. Dealing with them about their mistakes was often so difficult that I let it ride. Mark At 11:35 AM 10/29/2008, you wrote: >Lightning Source's cover colors seriously migrate over multiple printings; >my Da3 color is becoming a greener yellow over time. > >I have not had good luck with bookmobile; they have done the gala *first >printing* of Ray Bianchi's IMMEDIATE EMPIRE, now available in stores, in >addition to two rounds of galleys for that book. Get it now, while you can >get the rare *canary paper* print run!!! > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:44:00 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Speaking of POD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/oct/29/google-books-publishing-on= line-royalties=0A=0A=0A
3D""=0Asrc=3D"http://hits.gureport.==
3D""=0Asrc=3D"http://hits.guardian.co.uk/b/ss/guard=
=0ABreakthrough US deal by Google to sell book content o= nline=0A=95 Authors and publishers agree after legal action =0A=95 Transfor= mation likened to iTunes revolution=0A=09* Bobbie Johnson in San Francisco = and Alison Flood =0A=09* The Guardian, =0A=09* Wednesday October 29 2008=0A= It took a multimillion dollar=0Alawsuit, two years of tense negotiations, a= nd an awful lot of scanning.=0ABut yesterday the publishing world stood on = the threshold of a digital=0Aera after a US deal paved the way to transform= publishing.=0AThe=0Aagreement between Google and the US book industry mean= s that internet=0Ausers will soon be able to choose from and buy millions o= f titles, many=0Aout of print, or read them on a page-by-page basis. Bobbie Johnson: 'It's a kind of iTunes for books'=0ALink= to this audio =0AThe service invites comparison to the iTunes revolution= , and was=0Ahailed by the internet search giant, the American Association o= f=0APublishers, and the Authors' Guild as a key moment in the evolution of= =0Aelectronic publishing.=0AGoogle's co-founder, Sergey Brin, called=0Athe = $125m deal a "great leap". Paul Aiken, executive director of the=0Aguild, c= alled it "the biggest book deal in US publishing history". Once=0Aapproved = by a federal court in Manhattan, the deal will offer access to=0Aa library = of millions of titles.=0AAfter searching for books via=0AGoogle, users will= be offered free samples of chosen titles, with the=0Aoption to buy more. A= lthough it is as yet unclear how much books will=0Acost to download, a roya= lty organisation, the Book Rights Registry,=0Awill take payments from Googl= e (after it has taken a 37% cut) and=0Adistribute them to the authors and p= ublishers. "This historic=0Asettlement is a win for everyone," said Richard= Sarnoff, chairman of=0Athe publishers association. "It's hard work writing= a book, and even=0Aharder work getting paid for it," said Roy Blount, pres= ident of the=0Aguild. "This deal makes good sense."=0AThe agreement mirrors= the=0Away that Apple's iTunes music store helped revolutionise the record= =0Aindustry when launched in 2003. Although the Google scheme will start=0A= in the US, Google's chief legal officer, David Drummond, said that it=0Awas= working with rights holders, governments and organisations in other=0Acoun= tries.=0ATo start with, the scheme will be targeted at=0Auniversities and o= rganisations which will pay large institutional=0Asubscriptions on behalf o= f students and researchers. But the deal also=0Aenables ordinary customers = to download any of the 7m books already=0Ascanned into Google's database.= =0AUK publishers hoped the deal will=0Abe replicated. Simon & Schuster UK's= chief executive, Ian Chapman,=0Asaid: "It's a significant agreement, but a= lso has substance for the=0Alonger term - it's ground-breaking." Mark Le Fa= nu, of the Society of=0AAuthors, said: "What is so positive is that it reco= gnises that authors=0Aand publishers must be involved when works in copyrig= ht are digitised=0Aand made available to the public, and usage must be paid= for, while at=0Athe same time it promises to make the practicalities easil= y manageable=0Afor users." At The Bookseller, Neill Denny said the deal was= good news,=0Aas it put more books in front of more people, and access ulti= mately=0Acreated demand. "It's the long tail argument writ large, and I'm n= ot=0Aonly talking about books but also book content. If you want to read on= e=0Achapter from an obscure textbook about Serbo-Croatian poetry in the=0A1= 920s, there might be five books on the subject, but 10 with chapters=0Aon t= he topic. This opens up the route to what you might describe as=0Agranulisa= tion of book content ... tailored books. And for publishers=0Ait's a new re= venue stream."=0AThe deal, subject to court approval,=0Aends a lawsuit by a= uthors and publishers against Google Book Search=0Aafter it began scanning = US books still in copyright.=0ABackstory=0AGoogle=0Abegan scanning and uplo= ading books four years ago. However, unlike=0Aother countries where it scan= ned books fallen out of copyright, in=0AAmerica it scanned books that were = simply out of print and made them=0Aavailable through its search engine - e= nraging publishers and authors.=0AThree years ago, the Authors Guild, the A= ssociation of American=0APublishers and others filed a class action lawsuit= against Google Book=0ASearch. As part of the agreement Google will compens= ate them at a=0Aminimum of $60 (=A337) per work, costing it up to $90m of t= he $125m deal.=0A=0ABreakthrough US deal by Google to sell book content onl= ine=0AThis article appeared in the Guardian on Wednesday October 29 2008 on= p5 of the UK news section. It was last updated at 10.38 on October 29 2008= . =0A=0A=0A Paul E. Nelson =0A=0AGlobal Voices Radio=0ASPLAB!=0AAmerican Se= ntences=0AOrganic Poetry=0APoetry Postcard Blog=0A=0AIlalqo, WA 253.735.632= 8 or 888.735.6328 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: <20081028234111.1B73624797@smeagol.ncf.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) I haven't tried the expresso system yet. It doesn't seem like it's achieved widespread distribution yet. The list of outlets is really minimal. The nearest one to me is 600 miles away. http://www.ondemandbooks.com/our_ebm_locations.htm ~mIEKAL On Oct 28, 2008, at 6:41 PM, Rob McLennan wrote: > ive managed to find some good quality, recently producing a title on > the > new espresso book machine that the university of alberta bookstore > purchased last fall..... ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:33:07 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit version 3. they say, of software, that only when it gets to version 3 does it start to really hit its stride. version 1 was terrific in that it provided a service in a way that no one else did, previously. but the software was buggy, and the features and their options were limited. version 2 filled out the big picture of the main feature set, but the software was still buggy and, although the feature set was more visible, the options within the features were still limited. we seem to be at web 2.0. hopefully 3.0 will expand the options within the features sufficiently. i think pod is a beautiful event. it wrests control of the means of production away from just a few. though, nonetheless, cultural power is still location-centred, unfortunately. by this i mean that however good one's work and also knowledge of the technologies, it is still hard to operate with influence outside of the world centres such as ny paris london berlin. and what has influence from those centres often does so only by virtue of location, not the quality of the work. still, via communications tech, there is more access of x to y, regardless of location. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:45:30 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: AWAREing Press Subject: Re: Furniture Press Announcements - Call for submissions and donations In-Reply-To: <20081026130053.7008113EDE@ws5-9.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Christophe, are you soliciting stolen materials that have been miraculously= cured of liability, in terms of ownership and copyright? Intellectual prop= erty for sale? Give it away, give it away, now? How can you verify that you= can and will publish their work with impunity, etc. Are words or groups of= words copyrightable, etc. Is this the trend, a reuse/recycle mentality, et= c. What of the true poet, etc. (I do know a poet quite good at this, however! He's master of his mesh-craf= t, newly discovered genius.) Just askin'--- James Beach, editor AWAREing Press =C2=A0=C2=A0 -------------- Original message from Christophe= Casamassima : -------------- > Please appropriate and disseminate to all your readers! Repost as you see= fit... >=20 > 3. Furniture Press is a newly re-established independent press that speci= alizes in hand-made, small-run books, chapbooks and pamphlets. Thematically= , the press seeks to solicit and disseminate works that deal exclusively wi= th inter-textuality and appropriation. If you would like your work to be co= nsidered for review and publication during our inaugural season, please sen= d between 10-20 poems (in DOC or RTF format) plus a statement that addresse= s your work's relationship to inter-textuality and appropriation. We are lo= oking for writers and works that/who can define these relationships in new = and exciting ways. Send via email to appropriate.intertext@gmail.com with a= statement of intent and=20 > short bio. Add subject heading: Publication Review > 2. We are currently seeking poems and poem-like objects for the new issue= of Ambit : Journal of Poetry & Poetics (#4). Once again, the issue of=20 > inter-textuality and appropriation rears its head... Send via email to=20 > appropriate.intertext@gmail.com with a statement of intent and short bio.= Limit=20 > submissions to 5 poems. The reading period will end April 30, 2009. Add s= ubject=20 > heading: Ambit Review. >=20 > 1. Furniture Press needs your help. In order to get the press up and runn= ing for=20 > the spring, we will need generous contributions from the community-at-lar= ge.=20 > Donors can contribute any amount they wish, but those that donate $100 or= more=20 > will be guaranteed a life-time subscription to all press materials and ob= jects=20 > and will receive adequate space for advertising on our website and in our= =20 > publications - plus you will have the option to become a member of the To= wson=20 > Arts Collective for one year free! Simply write a check made out to Furni= ture=20 > Press and mail to Towson Arts Collective c/o Furniture Press, 406 York Ro= ad,=20 > Baltimore, MD 21211. We're 501(c)3 and that means your donation is tax=20 > deductable! >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Powered By Outblaze >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es &=20 > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:54:14 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: AWAREing Press Subject: Re: Lousy-ness of Print on Demand...a solution In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Thanks, Andrea. What a classy subject. POD books are a great idea, with poo= r quality. The worst is those grooves or ridges down the spine-sides of the= POD covers. Right away it looks tacky. Plain covers are a nice solution. (= Except, we'll all look like thesis writers, haha, or pretentious intellectu= als, hehe.) We at AWAREing print editions, small at first, until they sell = out, and then another edition can be printed if demand continues. Eventuall= y we will all print everything out at home--- did you know scientists, arch= itects and other visual thinkers can select to print 3-D models for almost = anything? As always, content is superior to packaging--- although, we all l= ike a book to look nice on a nightstand, don't we. James Beach, editor AWAREing Press=C2=A0 -------------- Original message from Andrea Selch : -------------- > I too have experienced first-hand the inconsistent quality of > print-on-demand books (including my own!). I wonder, though, if we can st= art > to think creatively about how to design books so that when they are print= ed > on demand (e.g. without some human controlling their quality), they still > come out well. Ideas for how this can be achieved? Maybe just doing > extremely plain covers, more like Gallimard Editions books? I'd love to h= ear > your thoughts.=20 > --Andrea Selch >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DThe Poetics List is moderated & does not acce= pt all posts. Check guidelines &=20 > sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tom Orange Subject: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline dear listers, i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and yet nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, reznikoff, rukeyser). any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics greatly appreciated. sincerely, tom orange ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:46:08 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sam Ladkin Subject: Reading on Friday: Chris Goode & Tomas Weber Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Apologies for cross posting] Suddenly out of nowhere, at very short notice, there will be a reading by Chris Goode, Tomas Weber & (hopefully) one or more others t.b.a. this Friday, October 31st, at 7.30pm at the Judith E Wilson Drama Studio, Faculty of English, West Road, Cambridge Free entry. Refreshments. All are welcome. Chris Goode is a writer and performance maker. His most recent book of poems is NoSon House (Barque) and his work was featured in the recent British Poetry issue of Chicago Review. He has read widely, including at the Cambridge Poetry Summit, Sub Voicive, Crossing the Line and Total Writing London, and quite frequently at the Klinker. He blogs at Thompson's Bank of Communicable Desire (http://beescope.blogspot.com). Still in his teens, Tomas Weber is one of the most interesting and incisive young poets now emergent. His work can be seen at Blackbox and at the Poetry Society web site, and some of the thinking around it can be traced at his widely read and appreciated blog, Green Ideas Sleeping Furiously (http://tomasjosephweber.blogspot.com). He is among the contributing writers on Chris Goode's new theatre piece Hey Mathew. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Hennessey Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'd say that the earliest appropriative form is probably the cento ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cento_(poetry)), composed entirely out of borrowed lines from various sources. Ashbery's "To a Waterfowl" and Berrigan's "Cento: A Note on Philosophy" are two contemporary examples that jump immediately to mind. -mike- Michael S. Hennessey Managing Editor, PennSound The Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing 3808 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6136 http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ Visiting Assistant Professor of English Department of English The McMicken College of Arts and Sciences University of Cincinnati Cincinnati, OH 45221-0069 A Crash Course in Counter-Intelligence: http://hennessey.tumblr.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:18:24 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ____________________= But the cento is a very ancient form....=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________= ____________=0AFrom: Tom Orange =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV= .BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, 29 October, 2008 8:30:22 PM=0ASubject: appr= opriative poetics: genealogy/history?=0A=0Adear listers,=0A=0Ai feel i'm ha= ving a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your=0Acollective wisdom= : i am looking for precedents in the history of=0Apoetry for appropriations= of other texts into one's own poems, and yet=0Anothing comes immediately i= nto my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem=0Aand the high modernist use of d= ocumentary materials (pound, williams,=0Areznikoff, rukeyser).=0A=0Aany tho= ughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics=0Agreatly apprec= iated.=0A=0Asincerely,=0Atom orange=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & = sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:14:24 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) See Shakespeare for starters. Hal McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. They're a bridge to nowhere. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@earthlink.net halvard@gmail.com http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > dear listers, > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and yet > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics > greatly appreciated. > > sincerely, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: SARAH CAMPBELL & JANE SPRAGUE @ THE POETRY PROJECT MONDAY NOVEMBER 3rd 8:00pm Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable SARAH CAMPBELL & JANE SPRAGUE The Poetry Project Monday November 3rd at 8:00 Sarah Campbell's recent work appears in Golden Handcuffs Review, Broke, and as a poetry chapbook, The Maximum (Bonfire Press, 2008). She lives in Brooklyn. =20 Jane Sprague is a poet and publisher-editor of Palm Press. Her poems, essay= s and reviews of contemporary poetry have been published in many print and online journals including Columbia Poetry Review, Kiosk, Tarpaulin Sky, How2, Jacket and others. Her books The Port of Los Angeles and Extreme Global: La Ciudad sin Extremo / Los Angeles are forthcoming from Chax and Chain Links presses in 2008. Her pamphlet =B3Sacking the Notebooks=B2 is forthcoming from eohippus labs later this year. She is the recipient of a NYFA grant as an Artist in the School Community at Cornell University and NYSCA grants for her curatorial and performance work. She has taught writin= g in public school classrooms as a teaching artist for Lincoln Center's Institute for Aesthetic Education, at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility for Women (in conjunction with Bank Street College), and at several college= s in Southern California and upstate New York. She is currently editing the collection Imaginary Syllabi, a pedagogical project documenting and exploring the potential and actual work of innovative and radical strategie= s for teaching writing. She teaches at California State University at Long Beach and for Bard College's Institutes for Language and Thinking and Writing and Thinking. Originally from Port Dickinson, New York, she currently lives in the port city of Long Beach, California. Monday Night Readings on the horizon include: Nov. 17 SUZANNE STEIN and ANN STEPHENSON Dec. 8 LOUIS CABRI and KEVIN VARRONE Dec. 15 C.J. MARTIN and DAVID LARSON Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:02:18 -0700 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <468123.85460.qm@web65108.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Eliot, a high modernist, managed to sneak some Shakespeare into the Waste Land. Most notably, Anthony & Cleo... & no no doupt he smuggled a good deal of other stuff in as well. I mention Eliot, because his method of doing this was perhaps the most subtle, avoiding mere documentary. I'm not familiar with the cento, but I'm interested in it now. --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 6:18 PM > ____________________ > But the cento is a very ancient form.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Tom Orange > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 29 October, 2008 8:30:22 PM > Subject: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > dear listers, > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the > remedy of your > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the > history of > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own > poems, and yet > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's > dadaist poem > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, > williams, > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative > poetics > greatly appreciated. > > sincerely, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:45:02 -0700 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <468123.85460.qm@web65108.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Annie Dillard has a book of poetry that she describes as "a kind of remade found poetry." Called: "Mornings Like This." --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 6:18 PM > ____________________ > But the cento is a very ancient form.... > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Tom Orange > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, 29 October, 2008 8:30:22 PM > Subject: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > dear listers, > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the > remedy of your > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the > history of > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own > poems, and yet > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's > dadaist poem > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, > williams, > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative > poetics > greatly appreciated. > > sincerely, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:48:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <335350.39012.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tom: This is a great question, but I want to know more context: hoping to answer the questions, appropriate/appropriation "how" and "why" for your use? Where are you drawing the source / translation / genre switch / stealing lines? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:35:17 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 5B108) or Homer: I don't think you could find a single line of his that wasn't appropriated from another poet's work. On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:14 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > See Shakespeare for starters. > > Hal > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > halvard@gmail.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > >> dear listers, >> >> i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your >> collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of >> poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and >> yet >> nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem >> and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, >> reznikoff, rukeyser). >> >> any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics >> greatly appreciated. >> >> sincerely, >> tom orange >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 22:10:50 -0700 Reply-To: storagebag001@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Jorgensen, Alexander" Subject: Visual Poetry (Vispo) at Otoliths - Alexander Jorgensen - Homage to Jack Stauffacher In-Reply-To: <335350.39012.qm@web52403.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope you enjoy this work. Poke around, there is brilliant work by Samit R= oy and others! http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2008/09/alexander-jorgensen-homage-to-jack.= html =A0=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 06:42:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Tonight at the TRIBECA Performing Arts Center at BMCC: Alternate Vision MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poets House, the Asian American Writers Workshop & the TRIBECA = Performing Arts Center Present Alternate Vision.=20 Thursday, October 30, 2008=20 6:30pm | An Alternate Vision: Panel Discussion Tina Chang, Kimiko Hahn, Nathalie Handal, Khaled Mattawa & Ravi Shankar =20 Tina Chang, Nathalie Handal and Ravi Shankar, editors of Language for a = New Century, a groundbreaking anthology of Asian and Asian American = poetry, are joined by Kimiko Hahn and Khaled Mattawa to consider "an = alternate vision of the new century" in this exploration of contemporary = Middle Eastern and Asian poetry. 8:00pm | Language for a New Century: A Reading Tina Chang, Monica Ferrell, Eric Gamalinda, Kimiko Hahn, Nathalie = Handal, Cathy Park Hong, Khaled Mattawa, Ravi Shankar & Barbara Tran Co-sponsored by the Poets House, AAWW and the TRIBECA Performing Arts = Center at BMCC =20 @ The Tribeca Performing Arts Center =20 199 Chambers Street New York, NY 10007 Box Office - (212) 220-1460=20 =20 $10/Free to students and AAWW and Poets House Members ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:08:16 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barbara Henning Subject: creative writing workshop In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes I'm teaching a creative writing workshop in nyc for six weeks, beginning May 15th. I'm looking for a sublet with no pets in downtown Manhattan or around Park Slope in Brooklyn. One or two months is ok. Dates are flexible. Please back channel to barbhenn@mac.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:57:52 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Race and Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From PennSound -- Race and Poetry =A0 Recorded September 21, 2008 as part of this year's BOOG City Festival, "Rac= e and Poetry: Integrating the Experimental" is a panel discussion organized= and moderated by Amy King, featuring Tisa Bryant, Jennifer Firestone, Timo= thy Liu, Mendi Obadike, Meghan Punschke, Christopher Stackhouse and Mathias= Svalina. The conversation begins with opening statements by King, Svalina, Obadike a= nd Punschke, which are followed by further commentary by King, Firestone an= d Liu. Liu's comments on the late Reginald Shepherd's take on the marriage = of race and aesthetics, and the conjunctions of homoeroticism and race, pro= voke a round of responses from the panelists, which is followed by comments= by Tisa Bryant. From there, the discussion moves into a number of thematic= topics, including "the Question of Difference," "Buying into Whiteness," "= Destabilizing Whiteness" and "Disfunctioning Color." The hour-and-forty-min= ute recording concludes with a lengthy question-and-answer period. http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Race-and-Poetry.html =A0 http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ =A0 =A0 Be well, =A0 Amy _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 05:02:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ______________________= Do you have access to Homer's sources?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______________________= __________=0AFrom: Adam Tobin =0ATo: POETICS@LIST= SERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, 30 October, 2008 4:35:17 AM=0ASubject: R= e: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history?=0A=0Aor Homer: I don't think y= ou could find a single line of his that=C2=A0 =0Awasn't appropriated from a= nother poet's work.=0A=0AOn Oct 29, 2008, at 7:14 PM, Halvard Johnson =C2=A0 =0Awrote:=0A=0A> See Shakespeare for starters.=0A>= =0A> Hal=0A>=0A> McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks.=0A> They'= re a bridge to nowhere.=0A>=0A> Halvard Johnson=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> halvard@earthlink.net=0A> halvard@gmail.com= =0A> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html=0A> http://entropyandme.= blogspot.com=0A> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com=0A> http://www.hami= ltonstone.org=0A> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A> On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote:=0A>=0A>> dear l= isters,=0A>>=0A>> i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the rem= edy of your=0A>> collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the hist= ory of=0A>> poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, = and=C2=A0 =0A>> yet=0A>> nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tz= ara's dadaist poem=0A>> and the high modernist use of documentary materials= (pound, williams,=0A>> reznikoff, rukeyser).=0A>>=0A>> any thoughts on the= history or genealogy of appropriative poetics=0A>> greatly appreciated.=0A= >>=0A>> sincerely,=0A>> tom orange=0A>>=0A>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=C2=A0 = =0A>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.h= tml=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated &= does not accept all posts. Check=C2=A0 =0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: h= ttp://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:04:12 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <50955FB8-A4EE-4CCD-BACF-5F0A376D815D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Am I right that the question was about the appropriation of identified blocks of text, like mincorporating a newspaper article or a folktale? As opposed to simple borrowing or plagiarism. Mark At 12:35 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote: >or Homer: I don't think you could find a single line of his that >wasn't appropriated from another poet's work. > >On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:14 PM, Halvard Johnson >wrote: > >>See Shakespeare for starters. >> >>Hal >> >>McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. >>They're a bridge to nowhere. >> >>Halvard Johnson >>================ >>halvard@earthlink.net >>halvard@gmail.com >>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html >>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html >> >> >> >>On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: >> >>>dear listers, >>> >>>i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your >>>collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of >>>poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and >>>yet >>>nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem >>>and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, >>>reznikoff, rukeyser). >>> >>>any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics >>>greatly appreciated. >>> >>>sincerely, >>>tom orange >>> >>>================================== >>>The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >>================================== >>The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:54:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: paolo javier Subject: Fwd: MIA LEONIN AND WALTER K. LEW READ 30 OCTOBER In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline VU5JVkVSU0lUWSBPRiBNSUFNSSBDUkVBVElWRSBXUklUSU5HIFJFQURJTkcgU0VSSUVTCgpQT0VU UyBNSUEgTEVPTklOIEFORCAqV0FMVEVSIEsuIExFVyoKClRIVVJTREFZLCAzMCBPQ1RPQkVSIOKA oiA1IFBNCgpDQVMgR0FMTEVSWS9XRVNMRVkgQ0VOVEVSCjEyMTAgU1RBTkZPUkQgRFJJVkUKCgpN SUEgTEVPTklOIGlzIHRoZSBhdXRob3Igb2YgdHdvIGJvb2tzIG9mIHBvZXRyeSDigJMgQnJhaWQg YW5kIFVucmF2ZWxpbmcgdGhlCkJlZCAoYm90aCB3aXRoIEFuaGluZ2EgUHJlc3MpIOKAkyBhbmQg YSBtZW1vaXIgZm9ydGhjb21pbmcgZnJvbSB0aGUgVW5pdmVyc2l0eQpvZiBBcml6b25hIFByZXNz ICgyMDA5KTsgaGVyIHBvZXRyeSBhbmQgbm9uZmljdGlvbiBoYXZlIGFwcGVhcmVkIGluIE5ldwpM ZXR0ZXJzLCBJbmRpYW5hIFJldmlldywgUHJhaXJpZSBTY2hvb25lciwgTm9ydGggQW1lcmljYW4g UmV2aWV3LCBhbmQKQ2hlbHNlYS4gTGVvbmluIGhhcyB3cml0dGVuIGFib3V0IHRoZWF0ZXIsIGRh bmNlLCBhbmQgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UgaW4gTWlhbWkKc2luY2UgMjAwMCBmb3IgdGhlIE1pYW1pIEhl cmFsZCBhbmQgTWlhbWkgTmV3IFRpbWVzLiBTaGUgaGFzIHJlY2VpdmVkIGFuCkFjYWRlbXkgb2Yg QW1lcmljYW4gUG9ldHMgUHJpemUsIGEgTW9uZXkgZm9yIFdvbWVuIEdyYW50IGJ5IHRoZSBCYXJi YXJhCkRlbWluZyBNZW1vcmlhbCBGdW5kLCBhIEZsb3JpZGEgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBBcnRpc3QgRmVs bG93c2hpcCwgYW5kIGEgR3JlZW4KRXllc2hhZGUgQXdhcmQgZm9yIHRoZWF0ZXIgY3JpdGljaXNt LiBJbiAyMDA3LCBzaGUgd2FzIHNlbGVjdGVkIHRvIGJlIGEKZmVsbG93IGluIHRoZSBOYXRpb25h bCBFbmRvd21lbnQgZm9yIHRoZSBBcnRzL0FubmVuYmVyZyBJbnN0aXR1dGUgb24gVGhlYXRlcgph bmQgTXVzaWNhbCBUaGVhdGVyLgoKIkxlb25pbidzIHBvZW1zIGFyZSBzaW1wbHkgYXVkYWNpb3Vz LCB0aGVpciBsYW5ndWFnZSBleHBhbmRpbmcgYW5kCmNsYXJpZnlpbmcgc2V4LCBob25vciwgbG92 ZSwgYW5kIGV2ZW4gR29kLCB3aG9zZSBibG9vZCwgaW4gb25lIHBvZW0sIHNwaWxscwpvbnRvIGhp cyBzYW5kYWxzLiBJbiBhbGwsIHRoZSBzcGVha2VyIGluIHRoZXNlIHBvZW1zLCBhcyBMZW9uaW4g c2F5cywKJ2NvbW1hbmRzIGhlciBib2R5IC8gVG8gbGlmdCB0aGUgd2VpZ2h0IG9mIGl0cyBqb3ku JyBBbGwgYm9va3Mgb2YgcG9lbXMKc2hvdWxkIGJlIHRoaXMgZXhjaXRpbmcuIgrigJMgUm9iZXJ0 IFN0ZXdhcnQsIE5ldyBMZXR0ZXJzCgoKKldBTFRFUiBLLiBMRVcqIGlzIHRoZSBhdXRob3Igb2Yg RXhjZXJwdHMgZnJvbTog4oiGSUtUSCBESUtURSBmb3IgRElDVEVFCigxOTgyKSAoMTk5MiksIFRy ZWFkd2luZHM6IFBvZW1zICYgSW50ZXJtZWRpYSBUZXh0cyAoMjAwMikg4oCTIGEgZmluYWxpc3Qg Zm9yCnRoZSBQRU4gQ2VudGVyIFVTQSBQb2V0cnkgQXdhcmQg4oCTIGFuZCBUaGUgR2EtZ3VobSBQ b2VtcyAoZm9ydGhjb21pbmcpLiBIZQpoYXMgYWxzbyBlZGl0ZWQgQ3JhenkgTWVsb24gYW5kIENo aW5lc2UgQXBwbGU6IFRoZSBQb2VtcyBvZiBGcmFuY2VzIENodW5nCigyMDAwKSwgUHJlbW9uaXRp b25zLCB0aGUgZm9yZW1vc3QgYW50aG9sb2d5IG9mIEFzaWFuIE5vcnRoIEFtZXJpY2FuIHBvZXRy eQooMTk5NSksIGFuZCBNdWFlIDEgKDE5OTUpLCBhbmQgY28tZWRpdGVkICh3aXRoIEhlaW56IElu c3UgRmVua2wpIEvDtHJpOiBUaGUKQmVhY29uIEFudGhvbG9neSBvZiBLb3JlYW4gQW1lcmljYW4g RmljdGlvbiAoMjAwMSkuIEhpcyB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbnMgYW5kCnNjaG9sYXJzaGlwIG9uIEtvcmVh biBsaXRlcmF0dXJlIGFuZCBmaWxtIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBhbnRob2xvZ2l6ZWQgd2lkZWx5IGFuZApo ZSBmb3VuZGVkIHRoZSBzbWFsbCBwcmVzcyBLYXlhIGluIDE5OTMuIExldydzIG11bHRpbWVkaWEg Im1vdmlldGVsbGluZyIKcGllY2VzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBzdGFnZWQgc2luY2UgMTk4MSBmb3IgdmFy aW91cyBmaWxtIGZlc3RpdmFscyBpbiB0aGUgVS5TLgphbmQgU291dGggS29yZWEgYW5kIGhlIHdv cmtlZCBmb3IgZml2ZSB5ZWFycyBhcyBhc3NvY2lhdGUgcHJvZHVjZXIgb2YgbmV3cwpzdG9yaWVz IGFuZCBkb2N1bWVudGFyaWVzIGJyb2FkY2FzdCBvdmVyIHRoZSBDQlMgTmV3cywgUEJTLCBOSEsv SmFwYW4sIGFuZApvdGhlciBuZXR3b3Jrcy4gTGV3IGhhcyByZWNlaXZlZCBmZWxsb3dzaGlwcyBh bmQgZ3JhbnRzIGZyb20gdGhlIE5hdGlvbmFsCkVuZG93bWVudCBmb3IgdGhlIEFydHMsIE5ldyBZ b3JrIFN0YXRlIENvdW5jaWwgb24gdGhlIEFydHMsIGFuZCBBc3NvY2lhdGlvbgpmb3IgQXNpYW4g U3R1ZGllcywgYW1vbmcgb3RoZXJzLgoKIldhbHRlciBLLiBMZXcgaGFzIHRoZSBzdXJlIHRvdWNo LCB3aGV0aGVyIHdpdGggdGhlIGx5cmljLCB0cmFuc2xpdGVyYXRpb24sCm9yIG11bHRpbWVkaWEg Y29sbGFnZS13b3JrOyBpbiBob21vcGhvbm91cyBvciBjcm9zcy1jdWx0dXJhbCB0cmFuc2xhdGlv bjsgaW4KaGlzdG9yaWNhbCBpbnNpZ2h0IG9yIHNvdW5kL2ltYWdlIG5leHVzLiBUcmVhZHdpbmRz IG9wZW5zIG5ldyBwYXRocyBpbnRvIGEKJ2dsb2JhbCBwb2V0cnknIGJ5IGludGVncmF0aW5nIHZp c3VhbCwgc2VtYW50aWMsIGFuZCBzb3VuZCBwb2V0cnkgdG8KYXJ0aWN1bGF0ZSBhIHNpbXVsdGFu ZW91c2x5IHJlc29uYW50IGFuZCBkaXNzb25hbnQgaW50ZXJjdWx0dXJhbCBhZXN0aGV0aWMuIgri gJMgTWFyaWEgRGFtb24K ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:22:58 -0700 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <50955FB8-A4EE-4CCD-BACF-5F0A376D815D@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii & why not go back to the Old Testament, how much of it was original? Homer, hmmm, how much do we really know about him? really, not a single, repeat, Not a single line of his ... as usual, speculation isn't proof. --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Adam Tobin wrote: > From: Adam Tobin > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 12:35 AM > or Homer: I don't think you could find a single line of > his that > wasn't appropriated from another poet's work. > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:14 PM, Halvard Johnson > > wrote: > > > See Shakespeare for starters. > > > > Hal > > > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > > > Halvard Johnson > > ================ > > halvard@earthlink.net > > halvard@gmail.com > > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > >> dear listers, > >> > >> i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager > for the remedy of your > >> collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in > the history of > >> poetry for appropriations of other texts into > one's own poems, and > >> yet > >> nothing comes immediately into my view prior to > tzara's dadaist poem > >> and the high modernist use of documentary > materials (pound, williams, > >> reznikoff, rukeyser). > >> > >> any thoughts on the history or genealogy of > appropriative poetics > >> greatly appreciated. > >> > >> sincerely, > >> tom orange > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not > accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept > all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:23:10 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Since a great deal of the work of the Pre-Socratics and ancient Greek poets (Sappho, for example--and many others--I'm only writing of the West, though this has occurred in Taoist texts also in China, poetry and otherwise)--a great deal of work has come down as being included in the works of others--who may or not make note or sly allusion that these are buried lines attributed to so and so--and yet--being appropriated thus reflect as well on the one preserving them--so that appropriation becomes a badge of knowledge and taste, a sign of one's own high standing in the ascending rungs the stars must take on their "stairway to heaven"-- that is--the greater the name, or--the more obscure--that one appriopriates--the more of aninsider cult one--or the more popularyy recognized--all these sources from which appropriations are made become, as a "value" as a "name brand," also part of the "value of appropriation as a method" when it is done in this manner-- and so in turn confer upon the "knowing and alert reader" the sense also of ebing one of these stars ascending ther stairway and likewise "in with the in crowd"-- but this is only one aspect of appropriation's wild and colorful history-- in the period of roughly 1590-1700, in the genre, immensely popular at the time--of "travel literature," there was massive plagiarism going on and in immensely imaginative ways, with a borrowing here, a stolen bit there and everywhere a stitch in time saves nine and voila one has produced yet a new book of wonders, authored by a pseudonym-- in turn translated by the same person under a different name into the "french"--so that it there appears as the work of yet another pseudonym--and then is translated back into English by again the same person, with the "translation" appearing under yet a new name-- (this method is used today by various agencies planting disinformation, among them MEMRI, which furnishes almost the Middle Eastern news for the entire mainstream American media--) (these things all happened--Defoe was one of the great practitioners, and Sterne also was a merry inventor of the voyages to the various then "New" worlds as well as ones among the "old"--) the greatest contemporary practitioner of creating works from found materials is Paul Metcalf, great grandson of Herman Melville--Paul's magnificent sound poem APALACHE is a full book--history of that area of the proto-United States--constructed entirely of texts he put togetehr-- not a word of his own appears in the text-- many of his other works are built using the same principal, although in each a particular set of themes or images is used to make connections which bring togetehr "unrelated" events, histories, persons to create revelatory histories, geographies and physiognomies--for example, I-57--written to celebrate his 57th year--is an account of a journey up route I-57--which uses texts from nervous system ailments, migraines and others to make another form of mapping simultaneous with that "found on the AAA maps"-- BOTH--combines the lives of John Wilkes Booth and Poe--and in Genoa, the diaries of Columbus and works of Melville occupy the mind of a narrator during an evening as he cares for his children and travels also in time through the adventures of his criminal brother's life-- I think Metcalf of any writer i have so far found is the greatest at making "connections" among found materials, quantum leaps that are a pure poetry in action--and using these juxtapositions of words and phrases to bring forth new arrangements of images, sounds, ideas that are astonishing, for again, their uncanny effect-- things which seem at once familiar and yet strangely new, unknown--as though seen for a first time and at the same time with a sense of eerie deja vu-- and as well plunging one, like his ancestor, into depths which are found to be teeming among the materials of the existent world of elements and objects, forces and actions, of something Other-- Paul cited a number of times the music of Charles Ives as an example--the use of bits and pieces of music from every sphere of hearing--arranged into a completely different yet at the same time uncannily familiar "picture" in sound-- Clark Coolidge wrote a very amazing work of appropriation i think influenced by Metcalf (as was a lot of Susan Howe's earlier work)--Smithson Depositions--which makes use of texts by Kerouac, WCW, Robert Smithson, Godard, geology texts, etc--it's an extraordinary and beautiful work-- the travel literature texts--a number of them are yet in print--even though chunks of them are inventions as well as appropriations--sewn togetehr by a traveller who never left a cosy fire side desk-- Defoe wrote a book on Madagascar for example that was still used seriously by travellers for over a hundred fifty years after Defoe had entirely imagined it and used also the bits and pieces his sharp eye had come across in the flood ties of verbiage washing ashore in England and the other countries of Europe during the mad rushing years to gobble up the hew world-- out of this literature was born eventually the first forms of the modern novel of "realism"--such as Defoe's own!--to be sure-- earlier, as has been noted, Shakespeare was using huge chunks of work that came ashore from Italy and Spain--and there were cross pollinations of texts through the late Middle Ages, into the Renaissance and Elizabethan periods--often one may find transpositions (translations of another form, to put it in a poetic manner--)-- transpositions of whole works, with only the names of characters and settings changed to conform the local area and ruler's policies and the scandals of local VIPs-- what is now the United States of course furnished an incredible breeding ground for texts of all sorts which in turn produced texts from amongst themselves--with cross breedings, transpositions, faked translations, plagiarisms, al mixed with here and there some actual observations of an actual traveler--not to mention the accounts being included given by Indians who were simply "giving the wrong directions" to gullible explorers-- if one examines the history of the survival of much of Sappho's writing, it is really long history of it's been erased (by burnings primarily) as well as its being 'included in" the works of others--a kind of incredible hood ornament added to make the vehicle of the moment have more class so to speak--and at the same time the efforts made to have it "melt" into the surfaces of the appropriators' works-- of course the greatest appropriator in a sense, the one who turns this method on its head entirely--is Borges' Pierre Menard--who manages the writing, word for word, of two Chapters and part of a third, of Don Quixote, and which the commentator and historian of Menard's works demonstrates the superiority of to the originals by Cervantes-- however, it may be argued, Menard is not setting out to appropriate Cervantes, but to write Cervantes-- write not as Cervantes but write as Pierre Menard writing Cervantes-- The first great critic in American literary history is Edgar Allan Poe, for whom the questions of plagiarism and appropriation were an obsession. Since Poe himself often filched a bit here and a tidbit there, as well as inventing "classical authors and their quotations,"--one may see the common psychological effect of projection at work--accusing others of what one sees and fears to see and know of in oneself-- Poe was also the past master of hoaxes--furthering confusing the issues when it came to his own works, prompting him to insist al the more loudly and wildly on the crimes of others against the rigors he insisted upon as being necessary for a nascent literature to be taken seriously as having, indeed, its own existence at at all, and one separate from that of the English language-- (this is why he's in WC W's In the American Grain--for his criticism--the original "Tommyhawk Man") appropriation of course, is also used in detournement, to turn an image against itself by the addition of a caption--which can be accomplished also in lines of poems-- and appropriation simply as a montage or collage--the one building to an ideological statement, the other to a satire perhaps-- or, as in some examples from the visual arts (Sherry Levine, Cindy Sherman, et alia--) one may simply take a photo of a photo or reconstruct a photo and take a photo of that--and so be making a commentary on the original photo itself being an example of an image within a prior system which constructed it-- i think an interesting area is that in which it becomes difficult to discern the distinctions between mimicry and appropriation-- at a certain level, one might say that all writing is a form of appropriation, for in each word that one writes, each writer has in them a sense of their own from which source they are appropriating it in th sense of which first time hearing or seeing of that word they have carried with them in memory-- so that with each word in each writer may be living millions of teeming appropriations--or fewer, depending on the writer-- in another way, so many words are already constructed as things made to be appropriated, carried about daily as the basic materials "to get by in this world"--that without anyone realizing it, they are just things "everyone has on them"-- such is the meaning of "stock phrases" for example or "cliches" and "nostrums"--al this baggage one totes about that one pulls out in an emergency or in a daydream half interrupted--and dishes out blandly-- think on how many things in a day one might write or say really that are just appropriations more or less word for word of something heard or said just a bit earlier in the day-- and one produces them calmly, casually, quite offhand, mind you--as though they are indeed the completely new and original thoughts of one's own-- probably a good deal more than anyone realizes throughout the course of the day is just a continual appropriation of texts from earlier in the day culled from here and there, screen, CD, video, news flash, email, book, overheard conversation, direct conversation--and so and on--al this immense flood of words and phrases with which one is quickly and nimbly making those quick hand outs of platitudes that smooth the operations of negotiating one's passage through the language infested day-- so itis that one begins to wonder--my God!--have i said or thought one original thing all day! or but been just an appropriatin' fool! skipping along happily flinging out the posies of phrases picked up on the lawns of others-- ah yes--and to ask of Emily Post-- my dear, when is it appropriate to appropriate? for are not disquisitions on etiquette as formally of interest as though of ethics says a little mouse, who hopes someday to be the Oscar Wilde of the mouse holes in Emily's decaying--genteely, to be sure, old heap-- to appopriate refuse, the thrown out, is another tradition--(to which i belong)--the "utility of the useless"--the use of the mud for gold a la Baudelaire--alchemies of alleyways--Rimbaud's famous catalog of junk he found of use--and Schwitters picking up used bus tickets in the muddy desparing streets-- an appropriation of what no one wants!-- because in good part, "necessity is the motherfucker of invention"-- this is the appropriation method or style at the other end of the spectrum form that which makes use of the highest of vlue materials in order to refelct well on the caliber of the poet doing the appropriating-- as one may see, there reamins really vast work to be done with the questions involved with appropriation, in the realms simply of what it means in terms of taste, for example--and of the ettiquette of the approproiate use of appropriation--and al the hosts of meanings that may be wrung from each different aspect and its contexts-- its placements within the streams and flows of time-- for each appropriation is it not, creates a new history for the words whcih it appropriates, reframes them, regalvanizes them--that is, if the appropriator is worth their salt-! as some indeed simply fall falt--but when it is working the old approrpriation mill is helping to keep alive the endless quantum possiblitlies of what are the uncertainty principle of words, letters, signs-- On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > dear listers, > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and yet > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics > greatly appreciated. > > sincerely, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:26:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <270774.3279.qm@web65104.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the muses? they sing to me sometimes, but haven't for awhile. or do you mean the oral epic tradition? hm... I make do with the newspaper, myself. When I'm not too busy reading the collected works of Erika T. Carpenter. -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:02 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? ______________________ Do you have access to Homer's sources? ________________________________ From: Adam Tobin To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2008 4:35:17 AM Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? or Homer: I don't think you could find a single line of his that wasn't appropriated from another poet's work. On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:14 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > See Shakespeare for starters. > > Hal > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@earthlink.net > halvard@gmail.com > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > >> dear listers, >> >> i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your >> collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of >> poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and >> yet nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist >> poem and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, >> williams, reznikoff, rukeyser). >> >> any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics >> greatly appreciated. >> >> sincerely, >> tom orange >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:37:25 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Scott Howard Subject: Christian Bok's _Eunoia_ @ BBC News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI, from BBC News for 10/30/08 . . . http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7697000/7697762.stm /// ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Clay Banes Subject: SPD's "MAKE US FAMOUS" CONTEST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There might be a free book in it. DETAILS LINK: = http://spdtoday.blogspot.com/2008/10/spds-make-us-famous-contest.html SPD'S "MAKE US FAMOUS" CONTEST SUBMIT YOUR POEM THAT SOMEHOW, SOMEWHERE INCLUDES OUR NAME (SMALL PRESS = DISTRIBUTION) AND GET A CHANCE TO WIN A FREE SPD BOOK OF YOUR CHOICE! Guidelines: a.. Poem must be 20 lines or less and must include the words "Small = Press Distribution" somewhere, somehow (creativity encouraged)=20 b.. Send poem and contact info to SPD [at] SPDBOOKS [dot] ORG. Please = include the poem in the body of the email=20 c.. Selected poems will be posted on our blog=20 d.. Top three poems will receive a free SPD book of their choice = (under $40) (free shipping within the US)=20 e.. Contest ends November 20th; winners will be announced at that time ALL POETIC FORMS WELCOME: haiku, acrostic, ballad, free verse, acronym, = pastoral, sonnet, rap, Flarf, lyric, "i do this i do that," hybrid, = hexameter, dirge, cento, comedy-jam, beat, prose, translation, = whatever/however and whenever you write the poem, we'd love to see it!=20 Love &c., CLAY Clay Banes Sales & Marketing Manager Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley, CA 94710 510-524-1668 x304 clay@spdbooks.org http://www.spdbooks.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:57:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project October/November In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone=8B here are the upcoming events at The Poetry Project . . . and Happy Halloween! Friday, October 31, 10 PM HALLOWEEN! This Halloween, performers including (but not limited to) writer Chris Leo, dancer Amy Baumgarten, poet Nathaniel Siegel, performance artist Jennifer Berklich, and the musical sounds of So L'il will be channeling other artists, dead or alive, and performing their works. The evening will also feature guest appearances of as-yet unidentified ghosts, including the 1986 echoes of Lou Reed and Laurie Anderson . Please join guest host Ben Malkin of So L'il for this haunted and certainly magical evening. Come dressed as an other, living or gone. Monday, November 3, 8 PM Sarah Campbell & Jane Sprague Sarah Campbell's recent work appears in Golden Handcuffs Review, Broke, and as a poetry chapbook, The Maximum (Bonfire Press, 2008). She lives in Brooklyn. Jane Sprague is a poet and publisher-editor of Palm Press. Her poems, essays and reviews of contemporary poetry have been published in man= y print and online journals including Columbia Poetry Review, Kiosk, Tarpauli= n Sky, How2, Jacket and others. Her books The Port of Los Angeles and Extreme Global: La Ciudad sin Extremo / Los Angeles are forthcoming from Chax and Chain Links presses in 2008. Her pamphlet =B3Sacking the Notebooks=B2 is forthcoming from eohippus labs later this year. She is the recipient of a NYFA grant as an Artist in the School Community at Cornell University and NYSCA grants for her curatorial and performance work. She has taught writin= g in public school classrooms as a teaching artist for Lincoln Center's Institute for Aesthetic Education, at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility for Women (in conjunction with Bank Street College), and at several college= s in Southern California and upstate New York. She is currently editing the collection Imaginary Syllabi, a pedagogical project documenting and exploring the potential and actual work of innovative and radical strategie= s for teaching writing. She teaches at California State University at Long Beach and for Bard College's Institutes for Language and Thinking and Writing and Thinking. Originally from Port Dickinson, New York, she currently lives in the port city of Long Beach, California. Wednesday, November 5, 8 PM Garrett Caples & David Mills Garrett Caples is the author of two full-length collections of poetry, Complications (Meritage Press, 2007) and The Garrett Caples Reader (Angle/Black Square Editions, 1999). He recently edited volume 59 in the City Lights Pocket Poets Series, Tau by Philip Lamantia and Journey to the End by John Hoffman. A resident of Oakland, he writes on Bay Area hip hop for the San Francisco Bay Guardian. He's also an editor at City Lights Book= s and curator of the new poetry series, City Lights Spotlight. David Mills ha= s won a NYFA, Brio and Hughes/Diop Award and Pan African Literary Forum poetr= y prize. His work has appeared in Callaloo, Rattapallax, The Pedestal magazine, Hanging Loose Press and Aloud to name a few. He has written book reviews for The Washington Post, Boston Globe, Village Voice and Rolling Stone. He lived as writer-in-residence in Langston Hughes' landmark home an= d performs a one-person show of Hughes' works. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:28:18 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: new music from Carter / Freedman / Sondheim (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed voice, steel guitar, tenor banjo, classical guitar, prime alpine zither, elegy alpine zither, flute, casio keyboard, chromatic harmonica Do check the music out - these are some of the stranger pieces we've done. http://www.alansondheim.org/ amab files (latest files) - Alan | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:00:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tom Orange Subject: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hi all, catherine daly and mark weiss were looking for some clarification on my question regarding a possible genealogy or history of appropriative writing. first off, and thanks to those who provided 20th-century examples but yes i'm really looking for precedents prior to dada and high modernism. as far as defining terms, i really do have in mind mostly what mark says, substantive if not wholesale incorporation of an other('s) text, however identified or not, into one's own. so i'm less interested in, say, the rhapsode as song-stitcher of a people's tales; or as dave chirot points to among his many great suggestions, the renaissance notion of imitation or authority through citation of others rather than through originality; or citation as example, through which, as dave points out, many pre-socratic, sapphic etc fragments found their sole survival; or translation, which still in most cases wants to preserve and remain faithful to the original author's intent... and so as to catherine's "appropriation how/why," precisely. i'm looking to a genealogy of appropriative poetics in part to differentiate poets' means, intents, motives etc for doing so in the first place. so for example, 1) tzara says make a dada poem by tearing up a newspaper and arranging the strips you've pulled from a hat; 2) pound, reznikoff, rukeyser pull documents from the historical and legal records to include in their poems; 3) cage reads thru joyce, thoreau, etc and creates mesostics from their words. clearly in each case the authors have different motivations for these appropriative acts and i'd like to try to map out the field, including precedents for this kind of activity. additional suggestions and discussion welcome... thanks, tom orange ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 02:13:34 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: a conversation with Jonas Slonacker 10 years after Matthew Shepard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline HOMOPHOBIA and a Lexicon of Violence: a conversation with Jonas Slonacker 10 years after Matthew Shepard You can read the conversation here at: http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "JJust one thing to add: It is well=". Rest of header flushed. From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, as usual, for all that, David.=0AJJust one thing to add: It is well= worth readiing "The=C2=A0Dream of the Poem," Peter Cole's great anthology = of Medieval Hebrew poetry....If you read the extensive annotations along wi= th the poems you will see that, however original no matter what the ostensi= ble subject, each one is basically a web of allusions to the Bible. It beco= mes clear that for them, the ultimate poetic trope was the citation.=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: David Chirot =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Thursday, 30 Octobe= r, 2008 5:23:10 PM=0ASubject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history?= =0A=0ASince a great deal of the work of the Pre-Socratics and ancient Greek= poets=0A(Sappho, for example--and many others--I'm only writing of the Wes= t, though=0Athis has occurred in Taoist texts also in China, poetry and oth= erwise)--a=0Agreat deal of work has come down as being included in the work= s of=0Aothers--who may or not make note or sly allusion that these are buri= ed lines=0Aattributed to so and so--and yet--being appropriated thus reflec= t as well on=0Athe one preserving them--so that appropriation becomes a bad= ge of knowledge=0Aand taste, a sign of one's own high standing in the ascen= ding rungs the=0Astars must take on their "stairway to heaven"--=0Athat is-= -the greater the name, or--the more obscure--that one=0Aappriopriates--the = more of aninsider cult one--or the more popularyy=0Arecognized--all these s= ources from which appropriations are made become, as=0Aa "value" as a "name= brand," also part of the "value of appropriation as a=0Amethod" when it is= done in this manner--=0Aand so in turn confer upon the "knowing and alert = reader" the sense also of=0Aebing one of these stars ascending ther stairwa= y and likewise "in with the=0Ain=C2=A0 crowd"--=0Abut this is only one aspe= ct of appropriation's wild and colorful history--=0A=0Ain the period of rou= ghly 1590-1700, in the genre, immensely popular at the=0Atime--of "travel l= iterature," there was massive plagiarism going on and in=0Aimmensely imagin= ative ways, with a borrowing here, a stolen bit there and=0Aeverywhere a st= itch in time saves nine and voila one has produced yet a new=0Abook of wond= ers, authored by a pseudonym--=0Ain turn translated by the same person unde= r a different name into the=0A"french"--so that it there appears as the wor= k of yet another pseudonym--and=0Athen is translated back into English by a= gain the same person, with the=0A"translation" appearing under yet a new na= me--=0A=0A(this method is used today by various agencies planting disinform= ation,=0Aamong them MEMRI, which furnishes almost=C2=A0 the Middle Eastern = news for the=0Aentire mainstream American media--)=0A=0A(these things all h= appened--Defoe was one of the great practitioners, and=0ASterne also was a = merry inventor of the voyages to the various then "New"=0Aworlds as well as= ones among the "old"--)=0A=0Athe greatest contemporary practitioner of cre= ating works from found=0Amaterials is Paul Metcalf, great grandson of Herma= n Melville--Paul's=0Amagnificent sound poem APALACHE is a full book--histor= y of that area of the=0Aproto-United States--constructed entirely of texts = he put togetehr--=0Anot a word of his own appears in the text--=0Amany of h= is other works are built using the same principal, although in each=0Aa par= ticular set of themes or images is used to make connections which bring=0At= ogetehr "unrelated" events, histories, persons to create revelatory=0Ahisto= ries, geographies and physiognomies--for example, I-57--written to=0Acelebr= ate his 57th year--is an account of a journey up route I-57--which=0Auses t= exts from nervous system ailments, migraines and others to make=0Aanother f= orm of mapping simultaneous with that "found on the AAA maps"--=0A=0ABOTH--= combines the lives of John Wilkes Booth and Poe--and in Genoa, the=0Adiarie= s of Columbus and works of Melville occupy the mind of a narrator=0Aduring = an evening as he cares for his children and travels also in time=0Athrough = the adventures of his criminal brother's life--=0A=0AI think Metcalf of any= writer i have so far found is the greatest at making=0A"connections" among= found=C2=A0 materials, quantum leaps that are a pure poetry=0Ain action--a= nd using these juxtapositions of words and phrases to bring=0Aforth new arr= angements of images, sounds, ideas that are astonishing, for=0Aagain, their= uncanny effect--=0Athings which seem at once familiar and yet strangely ne= w, unknown--as though=0Aseen for a first time and at the same time with a s= ense of eerie deja vu--=0Aand as well plunging one, like his ancestor, into= depths which are found to=0Abe teeming among the materials of the existent= world of elements and=0Aobjects, forces and actions, of something Other--= =0APaul cited a number of times the music of Charles Ives as an example--th= e=0Ause of bits and pieces of music from every sphere of hearing--arranged = into=0Aa completely different yet at the same time uncannily familiar "pict= ure" in=0Asound--=0A=0AClark Coolidge wrote a very amazing work of appropri= ation i think influenced=0Aby Metcalf (as was a lot of Susan Howe's earlier= work)--Smithson=0ADepositions--which makes use of texts by Kerouac, WCW, R= obert Smithson,=0AGodard, geology texts, etc--it's an extraordinary and bea= utiful work--=0A=0Athe travel literature texts--a number of them are yet in= print--even though=0Achunks of them are inventions as well as appropriatio= ns--sewn togetehr by a=0Atraveller who never left a cosy fire side desk--= =0ADefoe wrote a book on Madagascar for example that was still used serious= ly=0Aby travellers for over a hundred fifty years after Defoe had entirely= =0Aimagined it and used also the bits and pieces his sharp eye had come acr= oss=0Ain the flood ties of verbiage washing ashore in England and the other= =0Acountries of Europe during the mad rushing years to gobble up the hew=0A= world--=0A=0Aout of this literature was born eventually the first forms of = the modern=0Anovel of "realism"--such as Defoe's own!--to be sure--=0A=0Aea= rlier, as has been noted, Shakespeare was using huge chunks of work that=0A= came ashore from Italy and Spain--and there were cross pollinations of text= s=0Athrough the late Middle Ages, into the Renaissance and Elizabethan=0Ape= riods--often one may find transpositions (translations of another form, to= =0Aput it in a poetic manner--)--=0A=0Atranspositions of=C2=A0 whole works,= with only the names of characters and=0Asettings changed to conform the lo= cal area and ruler's policies and the=0Ascandals of local=C2=A0 VIPs--=0A= =0Awhat is now the United States of course furnished an incredible breeding= =0Aground for texts of all sorts which in turn produced texts from amongst= =0Athemselves--with cross breedings, transpositions, faked translations,=0A= plagiarisms, al mixed with here and there some actual observations of an=0A= actual traveler--not to mention the accounts being included given by Indian= s=0Awho were simply "giving the wrong directions" to gullible explorers--= =0A=0Aif one examines the history of the survival of much of Sappho's writi= ng, it=0Ais really long history of it's been erased (by burnings primarily)= as well=0Aas its being 'included in" the works of others--a kind of incred= ible hood=0Aornament added to make the vehicle of the moment have more clas= s so to=0Aspeak--and at the same time the efforts made to have it "melt" in= to the=0Asurfaces of the appropriators' works--=0A=0Aof course the greatest= appropriator in a sense, the one who turns this=0Amethod on its head entir= ely--is Borges' Pierre Menard--who manages the=0Awriting, word for word, of= two Chapters and part of a third, of Don Quixote,=0Aand which the commenta= tor and historian of=C2=A0 Menard's works demonstrates the=0Asuperiority of= to the originals by Cervantes--=0A=0Ahowever, it may be argued, Menard is = not setting out to appropriate=0ACervantes, but to write Cervantes--=0A=0Aw= rite not as Cervantes but write as Pierre Menard writing Cervantes--=0A=0AT= he first great critic in American literary history is Edgar Allan Poe, for= =0Awhom the questions of plagiarism and appropriation were an obsession. Si= nce=0APoe himself often filched a bit here and a tidbit there, as well as= =0Ainventing "classical authors and their quotations,"--one may see the com= mon=0Apsychological effect of projection at work--accusing others of what o= ne sees=0Aand fears to see and know of in oneself--=0A=0APoe was also the p= ast master of hoaxes--furthering confusing the issues when=0Ait came to his= own works, prompting him to insist al the more loudly and=0Awildly on the = crimes of others against the rigors he insisted upon as being=0Anecessary f= or a nascent literature to be taken seriously as having, indeed,=0Aits own = existence at at all, and one separate from that of the English=0Alanguage--= =0A=0A(this is why he's in WC W's In the American Grain--for his criticism-= -the=0Aoriginal "Tommyhawk Man")=0A=0Aappropriation of course, is also used= in detournement, to turn an image=0Aagainst itself by the addition of a ca= ption--which can be accomplished also=0Ain lines of poems--=0Aand appropria= tion simply as a montage or collage--the one building to an=0Aideological s= tatement, the other to a satire perhaps--=0A=0Aor, as in some examples from= the visual arts (Sherry Levine, Cindy Sherman,=0Aet alia--) one may simply= take a photo of a photo or reconstruct a photo and=0Atake a photo of that-= -and so be making a commentary on the original photo=0Aitself being an exam= ple of an image within a prior system which constructed=0Ait--=0A=0Ai think= an interesting area is that in which it becomes difficult to discern=0Athe= distinctions between mimicry and appropriation--=0A=0Aat a certain level, = one might say that all writing is a form of=0Aappropriation, for in each wo= rd that one writes, each writer has in them a=0Asense of their own from whi= ch source they are appropriating it in th sense=0Aof which first time heari= ng or seeing of that word they have carried with=0Athem in memory--=0A=0Aso= that with each word in each writer may be living millions of teeming=0Aapp= ropriations--or fewer, depending on the writer--=0A=0Ain another way, so ma= ny words are already constructed as things made to be=0Aappropriated, carri= ed about daily as the basic materials "to get by in this=0Aworld"--that wit= hout anyone realizing it, they are just things "everyone has=0Aon them"--= =0A=0Asuch is the meaning of "stock phrases" for example or "cliches" and= =0A"nostrums"--al this baggage one totes about that one pulls out in an=0Ae= mergency or in a daydream half interrupted--and dishes out blandly--=0A=0At= hink on how many things in a day one might write or say really that are=0Aj= ust appropriations more or less word for word of something heard or said=0A= just a bit earlier in the day--=0Aand one produces them calmly, casually, q= uite offhand, mind you--as though=0Athey are indeed the completely new and = original thoughts of one's own--=0A=0Aprobably a good deal more than anyone= realizes throughout the course of the=0Aday is just a continual appropriat= ion of texts from earlier in the day=0Aculled from here and there, screen, = CD, video, news flash, email, book,=0Aoverheard conversation, direct conver= sation--and so and on--al this immense=0Aflood of words and phrases with wh= ich one is quickly and nimbly making those=0Aquick hand outs of platitudes = that smooth the operations of negotiating=0Aone's passage through the langu= age infested day--=0A=0Aso itis that one begins to wonder--my God!--have i = said or thought one=0Aoriginal thing all day!=0Aor=C2=A0 but been just an a= ppropriatin' fool!=0Askipping along happily flinging out the posies of phra= ses picked up on the=0Alawns of others--=0A=0Aah yes--and to ask of Emily P= ost--=0Amy dear, when is it appropriate=0Ato appropriate?=0A=0Afor are not = disquisitions on etiquette as formally of interest as though of=0Aethics sa= ys a little mouse, who hopes someday to be the Oscar Wilde of the=0Amouse h= oles in Emily's decaying--genteely, to be sure, old heap--=0A=0Ato appopria= te refuse, the thrown out, is another tradition--(to which i=0Abelong)--the= "utility of the useless"--the use of the mud for gold a la=0ABaudelaire--a= lchemies of alleyways--Rimbaud's famous catalog of junk he=0Afound of use--= and Schwitters picking up used bus tickets in the muddy=0Adesparing streets= --=0A=0Aan appropriation of what no one wants!--=0Abecause in good part, "n= ecessity is the motherfucker of invention"--=0A=0Athis is the appropriation= method or style at the other end of the spectrum=0Aform that which makes u= se of the highest of vlue materials in order to=0Arefelct well on the calib= er of the poet doing the appropriating--=0A=0Aas one may see, there reamins= really vast work to be done with the questions=0Ainvolved with appropriati= on, in the realms simply of what it means in terms=0Aof taste, for example-= -and of the ettiquette of the approproiate use of=0Aappropriation--and al t= he hosts of meanings that may be wrung from each=0Adifferent aspect and its= contexts--=0A=0Aits placements within the streams and flows of time--=0A= =0Afor each appropriation is it not, creates a new history for the words wh= cih=0Ait appropriates, reframes them, regalvanizes them--that is, if the=0A= appropriator is worth their salt-!=0A=0Aas some indeed simply fall falt--bu= t when it is working the old=0Aapprorpriation mill is helping to keep alive= the endless quantum=0Apossiblitlies of what are the uncertainty principle = of words, letters,=0Asigns--=0A=0A=0AOn Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Tom O= range wrote:=0A=0A> dear listers,=0A>=0A> i feel i'm h= aving a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your=0A> collective wis= dom: i am looking for precedents in the history of=0A> poetry for appropria= tions of other texts into one's own poems, and yet=0A> nothing comes immedi= ately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem=0A> and the high modernist= use of documentary materials (pound, williams,=0A> reznikoff, rukeyser).= =0A>=0A> any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics= =0A> greatly appreciated.=0A>=0A> sincerely,=0A> tom orange=0A>=0A> =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept a= ll posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poe= tics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List i= s moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 04:57:37 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: <8B72E792343247788B01BF5A45D36BEB@rose> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Walter Benjamin's *The Arcades Project* and Montaigne's *Essays* are masterpieces made mostly of quotations, the writer's own thoughts weaving around them. Translation, if properly understood as the creation of parallel meta-texts rather than as copies, is a genre of appropriation. W. Benjamin's "ideal language" -which is his concept of what translation involves- is essentially a hypertext composed entirely of appropriated texts. Ciao, Murat On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Adam Tobin wrote: > the muses? they sing to me sometimes, but haven't for awhile. > or do you mean the oral epic tradition? hm... > I make do with the newspaper, myself. When I'm not too busy reading the > collected works of Erika T. Carpenter. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 8:02 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > ______________________ > Do you have access to Homer's sources? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Adam Tobin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Thursday, 30 October, 2008 4:35:17 AM > Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? > > or Homer: I don't think you could find a single line of his that wasn't > appropriated from another poet's work. > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 7:14 PM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: > > > See Shakespeare for starters. > > > > Hal > > > > McCain / Palin -- Just say thanks but no thanks. > > They're a bridge to nowhere. > > > > Halvard Johnson > > ================ > > halvard@earthlink.net > > halvard@gmail.com > > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html > > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > >> dear listers, > >> > >> i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your > >> collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of > >> poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and > >> yet nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist > >> poem and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, > >> williams, reznikoff, rukeyser). > >> > >> any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics > >> greatly appreciated. > >> > >> sincerely, > >> tom orange > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Halle Subject: Daniel Borzutzky @ Seven Corners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Take a moment this weekend to read two new prose poems by *Daniel Borzutzky*, from his project *The Books*, at *Seven Corners*( http://www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com/). Best, Steve Halle Editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:09:13 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Otoliths ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Issue eleven, the southern autumn, 2008 issue of Otoliths, has just gone live. As usual, the contents are wide-ranging. There are text & visual poems, photographs, paintings, & a variety of prose pieces. There'= s even an essay on otoliths. The contributors to this issue are Anny Ballardini, Michael Aanji Crowley, Sheila E. Murphy, Sheila E. Murphy & John M. Bennett, Eileen R. Tabios, Marcia Arrieta, dan raphael, Philip Byron Oakes, Michael S. Begnal, Halvard Johnson, Peter Ciccariello, Naomi Buck Palagi, Aaron Crippen, Raymond Farr, John Martone, Jeff Harrison, Andrew Topel, Felino Soriano, Reed Altemus, Iain Britton, Bill Drennan, Charles Freeland, J. D. Nelson, Mary Ellen Derwis, Joe Balaz & Mary Ellen Derwis, Alexander Jorgensen, Craig Rebele, Gregory Braquet, Marilyn R. Rosenberg, Michele Leggott, Martin Edmond, Angela Genusa, Bobbi Lurie, Charles Mahafee, Spencer Selby, Thomas Fink, Thomas Fink & Maya Diablo Mason, Cara Benson, harry k stammer, Samit Roy, Geof Huth, Stephen Nelson, Jaie Miller, Paul Siegell, Dorothee Lang, Stephe= n C. Middleton, Vernon Frazer, Tom Beckett, John Moore Williams, Elizabeth Kate Switaj, Manas Bhattacharya, David-Baptiste Chirot, sean burn, Scott Helmes & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & various collaborators, John M. Bennett, Doug White, Steve Wing, Julian Jason Haladyn, Zev Jonas, & Robert Gauldie. The two print parts of Otoliths ten should be available within the next wee= k from The Otoliths Storefront (http://stores.lulu.com/l_m_young), & the firs= t eight parts=97issues 1-4, parts one & two of each=97are now also available = from there as low-cost downloads. Mark Young --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 07:05:57 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Chirot Subject: Fwd: Issue eleven of Otoliths is now up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Issue eleven, the southern autumn, 2008 issue of Otoliths, has just gone live. As usual, the contents are wide-ranging. There are text & visual poems, photographs, paintings, & a variety of prose pieces. There'= s even an essay on otoliths. The contributors to this issue are Anny Ballardini, Michael Aanji Crowley, Sheila E. Murphy, Sheila E. Murphy & John M. Bennett, Eileen R. Tabios, Marcia Arrieta, dan raphael, Philip Byron Oakes, Michael S. Begnal, Halvard Johnson, Peter Ciccariello, Naomi Buck Palagi, Aaron Crippen, Raymond Farr, John Martone, Jeff Harrison, Andrew Topel, Felino Soriano, Reed Altemus, Iain Britton, Bill Drennan, Charles Freeland, J. D. Nelson, Mary Ellen Derwis, Joe Balaz & Mary Ellen Derwis, Alexander Jorgensen, Craig Rebele, Gregory Braquet, Marilyn R. Rosenberg, Michele Leggott, Martin Edmond, Angela Genusa, Bobbi Lurie, Charles Mahafee, Spencer Selby, Thomas Fink, Thomas Fink & Maya Diablo Mason, Cara Benson, harry k stammer, Samit Roy, Geof Huth, Stephen Nelson, Jaie Miller, Paul Siegell, Dorothee Lang, Stephe= n C. Middleton, Vernon Frazer, Tom Beckett, John Moore Williams, Elizabeth Kate Switaj, Manas Bhattacharya, David-Baptiste Chirot, sean burn, Scott Helmes & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & various collaborators, John M. Bennett, Doug White, Steve Wing, Julian Jason Haladyn, Zev Jonas, & Robert Gauldie. The two print parts of Otoliths ten should be available within the next wee= k from The Otoliths Storefront (http://stores.lulu.com/l_m_young), & the firs= t eight parts=97issues 1-4, parts one & two of each=97are now also available = from there as low-cost downloads. Mark Young =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 00:30:30 +0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Christophe Casamassima Subject: Space available for literary events and workshops in Baltimore Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, everyone, the Towson Arts Collective in Baltimore, MD has three giant g= allery spaces. We're currently booking the spaces for workshops, readings, = lectures and other events. If you'd like to talk about scheduling your even= t with us, please write me at cacasama@towson.edu.=20 Also, see www.towsonartscollective.org for further information, including p= roposal forms. cheers, Christophe Casamassima --=20 Powered By Outblaze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Nov 6: Carolee Schneemann in Chicago! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carolee Schneemann talk with films & videos. November 6, 6pm at the Gene Siskel Filmcenter 164 North State Street=20 Chicago, IL Tel: 312-846-2600 Since the early 1960s, legendary multimedia artist Carolee Schneemann has b= lazed a groundbreaking, taboo-busting path through the art world. Expressiv= e, exuberant and intelligent, her work ranges from hand-made diary films an= d politically charged performances to painting, poetry, and installation, a= ll the while exploring and overturning preconceived notions of sexuality, g= ender, and the body. Tonight, Schneemann will present a collection of recen= tly restored films, performance videos, and new work, including the first t= wo installments of her landmark Autobiographical Trilogy: FUSES (1964=E2=80= =9467), in which she painted, scratched, and collaged self-shot footage of = herself and then-partner James Tenney's erotic explorations, and PLUMB LINE= (1971), along with the influential performance pieces BODY COLLAGE (1967) = and AMERICANA I CHING APPLE PIE (1978=E2=80=942007) and her latest video IN= FINITY KISSES=E2=80=94THE MOVIE (2008). Tickets to movies are $9 general admission, $7 students, $4 for student, fa= culty of the School of the Art Institute, and staff of the Art Institute. $= 5 Film Center members. http://www.artic.edu/webspaces/siskelfilmcenter/2008/october/5.html#anchor6 Mutidisciplinary feminist artist CAROLEE SCHNEEMANN is known for her discou= rses on the body, sexuality and gender. She received a B.A. from Bard Colle= ge and an M.F.A. from the University of Illinois. Her work is primarily cha= racterized by research into visual traditions, taboos, and the body of the = individual in relationship to social bodies. Her works have been exhibited = internationally, including a full retrospective at the New Museum of Conter= mporary Art, and retrospective screenings at the the Centre Georges Pompido= u, MoMA, and Whitney. Schneemann has taught at several universities, includ= ing the California Institute of the Arts, the School of the Art Institute o= f Chicago, Hunter College, and Rutgers University, where she was the first = female art professor hired. She is the recipient of numerous awards, includ= ing: a 1999 Art Pace International Artist Residency, San Antonio, Texas; Po= llock-Krasner Foundation Grant (1997, 1998); 1993GuggenheimFellowship; Gottlieb Foundation Grant; National Endowment fo= r the Arts Fellowship. Honorary Doctor of Fine Arts, Maine College of Art, = Portland, ME. Lifetime Achievement Award, College Art Association, 2000. Ad= ditionally, she has published widely, including, Cezanne, She Was A Great P= ainter (1976), More Than Meat Joy: Performance Works and Selected Writings = (1979, 1997), Imaging Her Erotics: Essays, Interviews, Projects (2003). A s= election of her letters edited by Kristine Stiles is forthcoming.=0A=0A=0A = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:12:06 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: New issue -- Turntable & Blue Light MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone! Thanks so much to the readers & contributors of the magazine. It's been thr= ee wonderful years! In this Halloween issue -- http://www.turntablebluelight.com/=20 ~Poetry by: Mark Lamoureux Brooklyn Copeland Andy Gricevich Gunther Stephan Joy Leftow David Hadbawnik Amy King J. Michael Wahlgren ~Europe blog by: Nancy Wolfe ~Poetry & Images by: S=F8ren Waast ~Translation of Zhu Tianwen by Kevin Hsu ~Duncan Harman reporting from Glasgow on the dismal state of bagpipes and s= houtyness ~Tattoos & Paintings by: David Cavalcante ~Neil Watson's article on Il Cinema Ritrovato Festival ~My editorial, The Beautiful Dark and Quiet of Nonthought Go to http://www.turntablebluelight.com/ ~Enjoy!~ Arielle Shirley Guy Word One New York Turntable & Blue Light Magazine _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:22:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: James Robinson Subject: Re: appropriative poetics: genealogy/history? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tom, I'm new here and possibly a moron, but bear with me... IS it possible that appropriations of poetic and quasi-poetic texts exist in early renditions of religious texts, doctrines, holidays and parables? Does oral tradition itself bring up questions of appropriation when looking at the geneology of authorship? Just some questions. JR On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Tom Orange wrote: > dear listers, > > i feel i'm having a mental block and am eager for the remedy of your > collective wisdom: i am looking for precedents in the history of > poetry for appropriations of other texts into one's own poems, and yet > nothing comes immediately into my view prior to tzara's dadaist poem > and the high modernist use of documentary materials (pound, williams, > reznikoff, rukeyser). > > any thoughts on the history or genealogy of appropriative poetics > greatly appreciated. > > sincerely, > tom orange > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:31:38 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Recent Readings / New Videos @ The Stain of Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE STAIN OF POETRY =96 A READING SERIES http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ October 24th KEN RUMBLE -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DoP-XRDUxdhw BRIAN HOWE -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DYR2JP8qslw4 PATRICK HERRON -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DnHJ2qiqGjlA JULIA COHEN -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DiDFzD8ZHCFA SOMMER BROWNING -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DagV_XnW-Oe4 September 26th ARIANA REINES -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhN-gvPQX4s4 Ariana Reines answers questions on yurts, camels, Baudelaire and Sarah Pali= n REINES =96 PART II -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D-HI1f6TDtUM Ariana Reines reads found dreams and Coeur de Lion KRISTI MAXWELL -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgJ-tnb1mTC4 ARPINE KONYALIAN GRENIER =96 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZlkBYgLC5i8 ALAN BAJANDAS -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DYMZ2K4EEDNk August 29th MATVEI YANKELEVICH =96 PART II youtube=3Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dg= cXwCOs2q2c YANKELEVICH =96 PART I --youtube=3Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DIQCIdAf= qBDs RYAN MURPHY -- youtube=3Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D-dUvQFAeNy0 VALZHYNA MORT -- youtube=3Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DdqKjF2RUn5E MICHAEL BALL -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL6D9qmktZCA http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ =A0 =A0 ~~~~ =A0 VIDEOS FROM THE FORMER MIPOESIAS READING SERIES Amy King, Curator Mendi Obadike reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-2689831932866195687&ei=3DLA27SLL= xEJSUrgL31YnwDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Evie Shockley reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D7179533296441229330&ei=3DLA27SLLx= EJSUrgL31YnwDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Tonya Foster reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D4641226672996544465&ei=3DLA27SLLx= EJSUrgL31YnwDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Tara Betts http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D9128849204665301215&ei=3DLA27SLLx= EJSUrgL31YnwDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Christopher Stackhouse reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-1000016046685218294&ei=3DIhC7SIS= tLYqUrgKqtrTxDA&q=3D%22amy+king%22&emb=3D1=A0 Nico Vassilakis and Geof Huth Performing Sound Poetry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DfVW_v2kzI4I Stacy Szymaszek reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-6662593207462816216&ei=3DLA27SLL= xEJSUrgL31YnwDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Ethan Paquin - Part 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D1456707217726662375&hl=3Den Ethan Paquin - Part 2 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-1036492947895327293&hl=3Den Ethan Paquin - Part 3 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-1851525574263873552&hl=3Den Cate Peebles reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D-3143865017425555353&ei=3DvQ-7SNT= vM5CYrAKxnuTqDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Nichole Steinberg reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D7481605085786564996&ei=3DvQ-7SNTv= M5CYrAKxnuTqDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 Richard Peabody reads http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3D3012499496745222136&ei=3DvQ-7SNTv= M5CYrAKxnuTqDA&q=3Dmipoesias&emb=3D1 =A0 ~~~~ Not from the series (filmed by Amy tho) =96 Franz Wright http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D77GYrO2-3IE =A0 Enjoy! Amy and Ana =A0 http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ =A0 _______ Recent work http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/King.html Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html