========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:48:26 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts In-Reply-To: <49A8E8A1.28062.35A61E6@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >> > > Second, the market also comes before governments, not before. >>>>> Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect from the right. Bowering, George H. A relatively untravelled Canadian writer. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:17:39 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: arts funding in oz In-Reply-To: <7ea03fe50902272249h530d5cedo8761b84a48a70eea@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pam > and at the end of the arm there is the hand that you should probably > have shaken a few times in order to land a writing grant > > so often, it comes down to who you know - let me lie in the arms of a > peer who likes my poems That's what the right wing columnists claim, but from where I'm looking the truth is a lot more complex than that. I've dealt with funding bodies from several sides of the fence (critic, applicant, peer review person) in several art forms (music, literature, theatre). What counts more than "who you know" - and I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing - is being able to argue a coherent application. It's surprising how few writers manage to do this, and yet one would think it would be obvious that in approaching a bureaucracy, what needs to be assuaged is the bureaucratic necessities. And in a way, that's fair enough: render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. The Australian Council has a pretty transparent process: those who want to know about how decisions were made can find out, decisions can be questioned and there are strict rules about conflict of interest in panel discussions that are - from what I've seen - rigorously observed. When I look at the "stimulus spending" being thrown around these days my head spins - the arts have to account for every penny, and it's so jealously scrutinised. That seems correct for public money, but then private industry gets millions of dollars and aside from a few dissenting voices, everybody's for it. Hmmm. Fwiw, I've spent some time looking at US and UK funding models, and I think the Australian system looks pretty good in comparison (although it also looks pretty poor in relation to some imaginative European models): it's pretty fair, all things considered, and the major problem it faces is actually lack of money. There are big caveats: it's been pretty disastrous for the film industry, mainly I guess because films require so much money comapred to other artforms; the most interesting films being made these days are pirate films done on privately raised and miniscule budgets and filmed on HDD by people who don't get paid anything. On the other hand, the reason we have such a lively and interesting theatre culture is that it's funded, independent theatre especially; the main stage theatre companies get very little public funding, when considered as a percentage of their income, and so tend to operate more like commercial theatres. Like I said, it's complex. I still think it's better to have public funding than not, or at least, I can't think of a better way of making up the deficit of making serious art. And if you want unscrutinised funding predicated on "who you know", then private patronage is the absolute model. Myself, I usually feel about funding bodies like the scriptwriters in Barton Fink do about producers: "He's taking an interest, Barton! It's a _disaster_!" Bureaucrats, being the least interested, are probably the least damaging for artists to deal with. xA Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 00:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Subject: Les Demoiselles D=?windows-1252?Q?=92Avignon_?= in a box with ligatures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Les Demoiselles D=92Avignon in a box with ligatures http://ciccariello.viewbook.com/les - /1/ - Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:52:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Samuel Wharton Subject: sawbuck 3.1 (greetings from the west coast!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello all~ some of you already know this, but sawbuck has relocated to beautiful northern california. luckily, this has had no effect on our schedule, or on our ability to publish some bad-ass poetry. so, here it is -- the first issue of our 3rd season, & the first of (hopefully) many coming to you from sacramento -- Sawbuck 3.1. go & here's what you'll find: {changming yuan} {donald dunbar} {francis raven} {hugh behm-steinberg} {jason fraley} {jehanne dubrow} {kazim ali} {kimberly ann southwick} {sally van doren} {susan elbe} cheerio samuel wharton, editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:17:51 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: 4 READINGS AS THE MARCH WINDS BLOW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit steve dalachinsky w/ 1.. march 5 8 pm w/ illya bernstein, sabir mateen Unnameable Books @ 456 Bergen St. 718 -789 - 1534 b/w Flatbush & 5th Avenue in Brooklyn 2. an exciting one march 19 8 m at 5c e 5th and ave c w/ 3 bassists , alby b. lisle ellis and michael bisio 3. march 22 uptown at 3pm 110th and 1st ave and then at bengal curry west broadway at 6 pm ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:05:54 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Heller Subject: Poetry Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (apologies for any multiple postings) Michael Heller and Burt Kimmelman Reading at the Cornelia Street Caf=E9 March 11th, at 6 PM One drink minimum Address and Directions:=20 http://www.corneliastreetcafe.com/ Michael Heller has published eight volumes of=20 poetry, the most recent being Eschaton (2009).=20 His collection of essays on George Oppen,=20 Speaking the Estranged, was published in 2008.=20 Uncertain Poetries, a book of essays appeared in=20 2006. Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems=20 appeared in 2003. His memoir, Living Root, was=20 published by the State University of New York=20 Press in the Fall of 2000. Two Novellas: Marble=20 Snows & The Study is forthcoming in 2009. His=20 poetry and criticism have appeared in numerous=20 magazines and anthologies including The Paris=20 Review, Conjunctions, Harpers, New Letters, The=20 Nation, American Poetry Review, Jewish American=20 Poetry, Pequod, The New York Times Book Review,=20 Parnassus: Poetry in Review and many others. His=20 critical study, Conviction's Net of Branches:=20 Essays on the Objectivist Poets and Poetry, was=20 published by Southern Illinois University Press.=20 His many awards and honors include prizes from=20 The New School for Social Research, Poetry in=20 Public Places, the New York State CAPS Fellowship=20 in Poetry, the Alice Fay Di Castagnola Prize of=20 the Poetry Society of America, a New York=20 Foundation on the Arts Fellowship, the National=20 Endowment for the Humanities and the Fund for Poetry. Burt Kimmelman has published five collections of=20 poetry =96 Musaics (Sputyen Duyvil Press, 1992),=20 First Life (Jensen/Daniels Publishing, 2000), The=20 Pond at Cape May Point (Marsh Hawk Press, 2002),=20 a collaboration with the painter Fred Caruso,=20 Somehow (Marsh Hawk Press, 2005), and There Are=20 Words (Dos Madres Press, 2007); his volume of=20 poems titled As If Free is forthcoming in 2009=20 (from Talisman House, Publishers). For over a=20 decade he was Senior Editor of Poetry New York: A=20 Journal of Poetry and Translation. He is a=20 professor of English at New Jersey Institute of=20 Technology and the author of two book-length=20 literary studies: The "Winter Mind": William=20 Bronk and American Letters (Fairleigh Dickinson=20 University Press, 1998); and, The Poetics of=20 Authorship in the Later Middle Ages: The=20 Emergence of the Modern Literary Persona (Peter=20 Lang Publishing, 1996; paperback 1999). He also=20 edited The Facts on File Companion to=20 20th-Century American Poetry (Facts on File, 2005). Eschaton (new poems) Talisman House Publishers=20 (2009) available at SPD, Greenfield Distribution=20 (www.gfibooks.com), www. amazon.com and good=20 bookstores. Speaking The Estranged: Essays on the=20 Work of George Oppen (2008); Uncertain Poetries:=20 Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and=20 Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003)=20 available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com=20 and good bookstores. Survey of work at=20 http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm=20 Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman=20 Johnson at=20 http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html=20 Recordings at http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Heller.html =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:20:44 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The market is = in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the horro= r of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have access= to works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only lis= ten to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we woul= d only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing someth= ing along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I l= isten to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons= why I set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of t= he arts -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; c= ollectivist egalitarianism, no. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________= ___________________=0AFrom: Marcus Bales =0ATo: P= OETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM= =0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AThe problem with Paul Nelson's objection = to Troy's notion that a free market is a good=0Ajudge of artistic merit is = that it means Paul has put himself in an untenable position:=0Ahe's implici= tly arguing that some poems are better than others, and that some people=0A= can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one that w= ill get him in a=0Alot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped i= n with Troy as an equality-hater.=0ABe careful, Paul! You just can't say th= at some poems are better than others, or some=0Apoets better than others, w= ithout getting accused of elitism!=0A=0AYou're not an elitist, are you, Pau= l?=0A=0AMarcus=0A=0A=0AOn 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote:=0A=0ADate= sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800=0ASend reply to: "Poet= ics List (UPenn, UB)"=0A=0AFrom: = Paul Nelson =0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy= =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A=0A> Like most of you= r arguments, you base your stand on a false dich=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> Like mos= t of your arguments, you base your stand on a false=0A> dichotomy. You say = if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was=0A> only responding to yo= ur notion that the Free Market is a good judge=0A> of artistic quality. I f= ind that laughable, which is why I have=0A> responded in what I thought was= a humorous manner.=0A>=0A> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poe= try (hey, we can=0A> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry= is part of=0A> the gift economy.=0A>=0A> from Wikipedia:=0A>=0A>=0A> A gif= t economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are=0A> given w= ithout any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid=0A> pro quo.=0A>= Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and=0A> redis= tribute valuables within a community. This can be considered=0A> a=0A> form= of reciprocal altruism.=0A> The concept of a gift economy stands in contra= st to a planned=0A> economy or a market or barter economy.=0A> In a planned= economy, goods and services are distributed by=0A> explicit=0A> command an= d control rather than informal custom; in barter or=0A> market=0A> economie= s, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some=0A> other commod= ity - is established before the transaction takes=0A> place.=0A>=0A> Other = cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a=0A> different idea o= f the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as=0A> Ambassadors, for exampl= e. Most industrial democracies have social=0A> safety nets allowing an arti= st to live a decent life without=0A> becoming a corporate puppet, but not o= urs.=0A>=0A> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spen= ding,=0A> starting with the outlays for militarism:=0A>=0A>=0A> Again Wiki:= =0A>=0A>=0A> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1= =0A> trillion annually on defense-related purposes.=0A>=0A> Imagine $1B of = that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved=0A> areas. Imagine a n= ew (old) way of structuring economies on a=0A> bioregional (sustainable) ba= sis. The Federal Government becomes much=0A> less of a factor which, it see= ms to me, is the common ground you and=0A> I have. But when you make fauty = premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs=0A> FREE MARKET, little light is generat= ed.=0A>=0A> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkl= ing=0A> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and=0A> = Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free=0A> Market= s vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway,=0A> the miss= ion of this listserv. May it be so.=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul E. N= elson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Org= anic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A= >=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Troy C= amplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sen= t: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recogn= izes talent!=0A>=0A> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite = may be true."=0A> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It= is an=0A> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow fo= r a=0A> wide variety of options. The government does not give you options.= =0A> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like= =0A> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car?= =0A> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub,=0A>= isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be=0A> government-brand = art. Except that the government simply cannot=0A> support everyone who says= they are an artist. There must be someone=0A> deciding who gets supported.= Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A> think so. Me? Don't think so. Th= is year it may be someone with whom=0A> you agree; next year it may be some= one with whom you never agree. Or=0A> should there be a democratic vote? Do= you really want art by=0A> democratic vote? How many here write anything a= =0A> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar= =0A> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the=0A> probl= ems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined?=0A> How muc= h funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to=0A> give it to= those who are already successful -- but then, if they are=0A> already succ= essful, why do they need government funding? And if they=0A> are not succes= sful, how does the government determine who to give=0A> funding to, who to = support? Based on production? Well, then, what=0A> prevents us from having = cheaters, who will produce just enough=0A> really bad art to get the fundin= g just so they don't have to go get=0A> a "real" job? I think about all the= se things and look at the history=0A> of government support for the arts an= d cannot come to any other=0A> conclusion that government funding for the a= rts is bad for the=0A> arts.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> _________= _______________________=0A> From: Paul Nelson =0A> To: = POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM= =0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> From: Troy Camplin = =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Frid= ay, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes tal= ent!=0A>=0A> One=0A> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, w= ith this=0A> list,=0A> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can als= o point to the=0A> fact=0A> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all = made wealthy during=0A> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but= I'm also not=0A> going=0A> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's wha= t they like. If you=0A> want=0A> to try to educate people to have better ta= ste, that's fine and good=0A> --=0A> but there's no evidence the government= is good at educating people=0A> in=0A> math and reading, let alone good ta= ste. I love how you people have=0A> to=0A> purposefully ignore facts to mak= e your points. Throw up a few straw=0A> men=0A> (and women, in this case) t= o try to make a "point."=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A> I prefer the phrase "= People of Straw" but I don't use the market as=0A> any=0A> guide to quality= in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true,=0A> but=0A> when you're a = fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh?=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global= Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poet= ry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Ch= eck=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/wel= come.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moder= ated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A= > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.= Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/= welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> No virus found in this incoming message.=0A= > Checked by AVG.=0A> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3 - Release= Date:=0A> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:31:35 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Elshtain Subject: New Beard of Bees Chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take peeks. http://www.beardofbees.com/trivedi.html Eric Elshtain Editor Beard of Bees Press http://www.beardofbees.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:33:05 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You are mistaking "the market" for "democracy." You are correct to make a d= istinction between the market and individuals. One thing that the market do= es allow is the creation of niches. Mass production is not identical with t= he market, though it can be a feature of it. If there is enough people who = want something, someone will come along to supply it. That is the main feat= ure of the market. Certainly with copy prices so low, and the existence of = the internet, and now Kindle, the availability of art of all sorts have blo= ssomed. I see the development of things such as the Kindle -- a product of = the market -- as a way for many more people to be able to sell their litera= ry works, since almost all costs have been eliminated for publishers. And a= s the market allows for the creation of more and more such technology, it's= going to be easier and easier for writers to make their works available fo= r sale. We are at the cusp of another information boom, which will make literary works far more available -- and the government far less nece= ssary. =0A=0AThe market produces a wide variety of things, including kitsch= -- but most certainly kitsch is not the only thing it produces. If you tru= ly believe it is, then you have chosen to blind yourself to much of reality= , I'm afraid. Or perhaps you ought to get out of Canada more often.=0A=0ATr= oy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: cris costa <= cris@THESCREAM.CA>=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, Febru= ary 27, 2009 11:59:13 AM=0ASubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A=0A= It's good to see someone south of the boarder standing up for government fu= nding in Canadian arts. Thanks Francois. To add to that, it is the governme= nt funding allows all the talented writers (particularly the ones mentioned= below) to create their work and distribute it, because although their work= is brilliant, it's not easily digestible (in terms of what the market requ= ires for consumption), and therefore opposed to the principles that govern = "the market".=0A=0AHowever, a major problem that I noticed from the start o= f this debate is that it is taking for granted (in life, in this conversati= on) that "the market" indeed has skills of discernment. The market cannot r= ecognize anything. It's not a person, nor does it have eyes, or thoughts, o= r feelings. Though "the market" may require humans to exist or to perpetuat= e itself, human "taste" (as relative and arbitrary as that may be) plays a = minuscule role in determining what is produced by the market. In order for = the market to operate as it does, it requires "efficiency" (translate: chea= p products, made quickly, sold for a lot of money). Human desire comes into= play at one point or another, but psychoanalysts and cultural theorists ac= ross the board have demonstrated time and again that desire is just as easi= ly appeased with simulation and simulacra as it is with the "authentic" thi= ng. =0A=0ATherefore, the market generates "schlock and kitsch" (as the big = ol' F.J. puts it) in order to sustain itself. The subject who is fully imme= rsed in the market--that is the ideal market-subject who can supposedly dis= cern--is equally satisfied with kitsch as it is with anything else. =0A=0AP= erhaps you're not. And I think, neither are most people on this listserv. W= hich is the point I'm making.=0A=0ASo three cheers for government funding f= or the arts! =0A=0A-c. =0A=0A=0A> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:32:53 -0500=0A>= From: neuroticme@YAHOO.COM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!= =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> =0A> Troy,=0A> =0A> As I read you= r responses to George Bowering, I am somewhat struck by their=0A> ignorance= .. First of all, George Bowering probably receives or has received=0A> grant= s from the Canada Council of the Arts or his province's art=0A> administrat= ion. Secondly, the Canadian government has provides much more=0A> funding f= or its artists than the free(er) market United States and has=0A> allowed i= ts literature to be much more vibrant and interesting than the vast=0A> maj= ority of American poetry (some examples of fine Canadian poets: Erin=0A> Mo= ur=E9, Nicole Broussard, Aaron Peck, angela rawlings, Jordan Scott, ...).= =0A> The same can be said of many Western European countries where the gove= rnment=0A> provides subsidies for its writers and artists.=0A> =0A> Best,= =0A> =0A> fran=E7ois luong=0A> =0A> PS: I am not Canadian or a resident of = Canada.=0A> =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moder= ated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http:/= /epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A________________________________= _________________________________=0AWindows Live Messenger. Multitasking at= its finest.=0Ahttp://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messen= ger.aspx=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buf= falo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:42:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more corrupt, and = that government is far more corrupting, than are those who participate in t= he free market, or than the free market is. =0A=0AI don't deny the importan= ce of patronage. We need a gift market as well. A free gift market is not i= nconsistent with the market economy. In fact, there is a long history of ve= ry wealthy capitalists who were incredibly generous with their largesse. Wh= ich is to be compared with government leaders, who are incredibly generous = with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral -- to be generous with= other people's money. So patronage is important. I think it should come ab= out voluntarily. You think it is perfectly acceptable to take money by forc= e (try not to pay your taxes and see if it isn't taken by force). That is w= here we disagree. In fact, I think patronage is so important, I have starte= d a nonprofit organization to provide patronage for the arts. We won't take= money form the government, though, as I find taking money from the governm= ent to be unethical. We will take voluntary donations from people so that w= e can one day patronize artists, writers, etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of.=0A=0AThere is no such t= hing as a disinterested outcome when it comes to people. =0A=0ATroy Camplin= =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Mark Weiss =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, February 2= 7, 2009 10:09:07 AM=0ASubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A=0ABrava= , Alison.=0A=0AAt 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote:=0A> I live in a country wh= ere there is government subsidy for the arts. It=0A> is by no means a bad t= hing. It is vastly prefereble for, say, poetry=0A> publishers to be subsidi= sed to publish poetry books than the system=0A> you have in the US, where p= ublishers run competitions charging=0A> appellants to enter so they can con= tinue to publish books, which=0A> creates a competition culture that is, t= o my mind, more corrupting by=0A> far. Your deep study of history, Troy, wi= ll have shown you that while=0A> some art can be self-supporting, much of i= t, and much of the stuff we=0A> now consider most valuable, was only sustai= ned by some form of=0A> patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whethe= r it's a wealthy=0A> patron or a government sponsored organisation, and som= eone has to=0A> decide where it ought to go, and sometimes it will be waste= d and=0A> sometimes it will not. And any scheme is going to be imperfect. T= here=0A> wil be patrons with exercrable taste who only want to be flattered= ,=0A> corporations with no taste at all which only want to be flattered, an= d=0A> governments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic boxes. But= =0A> in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among the evils on offer,= =0A> because there is actually in practice more chance of a disinterested= =0A> outcome. In Australia, it is arms length funding with a process of=0A>= peer review. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, as I=0A> sai= d, but as a system it produces a lot of very high quality art that=0A> othe= rwise would be unsustainable.=0A> =0A> A=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> On Wed, Feb 25,= 2009 at 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A> > Now th= ere's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." The market so= metimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an imperfect arbiter of tas= te. What it does do, though, is allow for a wide variety of options. The go= vernment does not give you options. It is a monopoly. You get what they giv= e you, or nothing. Don't like government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like th= e government-brand car? Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but t= here's the rub, isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be govern= ment-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot support everyone w= ho says they are an artist. There must be someone deciding who gets support= ed. Who is that going to be? You? I don't think so. Me? Don't think so. Thi= s year it may be someone with whom you agree; next year it may be someone w= ith whom you never agree. Or should there be a democratic vote? Do you real= ly want art by democratic vote? How many here write anything a=0A> > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a commit= tee? Similar problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the p= roblems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? How muc= h funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to give it to tho= se who are already successful -- but then, if they are already successful, = why do they need government funding? And if they are not successful, how do= es the government determine who to give funding to, who to support? Based o= n production? Well, then, what prevents us from having cheaters, who will p= roduce just enough really bad art to get the funding just so they don't hav= e to go get a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the hi= story of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other concl= usion that government funding for the arts is bad for the arts.=0A> >=0A> >= Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > ________________________________=0A> = > From: Paul Nelson =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO= ..EDU=0A> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: Th= e Market recognizes talent!=0A> >=0A> > From: Troy Camplin =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Friday, February= 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A> >= =0A> > One=0A> > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with = this list,=0A> > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also poin= t to the fact=0A> > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wea= lthy during=0A> > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm a= lso not going=0A> > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they l= ike. If you want=0A> > to try to educate people to have better taste, that'= s fine and good --=0A> > but there's no evidence the government is good at = educating people in=0A> > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love ho= w you people have to=0A> > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. T= hrow up a few straw men=0A> > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "p= oint."=0A> >=0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> > I prefer the phrase "People of = Straw" but I don't use the market as any=0A> > guide to quality in the arts= .. In fact, the opposite may be true, but=0A> > when you're a fundamentalist= , you say funny things, eh?=0A> > Paul E. Nelson=0A> >=0A> > Global Voices = Radio=0A> > SPLAB!=0A> > American Sentences=0A> > Organic Poetry=0A> > Poet= ry Postcard Blog=0A> >=0A> > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept al= l posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/= welcome.html=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics Li= st is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub i= nfo: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> -= -=0A> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au=0A> Blog: http://theatr= enotes.blogspot.com=0A> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com=0A> =0A> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not ac= cept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/p= oetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List i= s moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:43:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm glad you posted this. Now that I've seen your "skills," I can ignore yo= u in good conscience when it comes to issues of grammar and language.=0A=0A= Troy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ryan Daley= =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, Feb= ruary 27, 2009 10:00:01 AM=0ASubject: Re: Secretary of the Arts=0A=0ATroy,= =0A=0AYour words again, if rearranged, call for order. Order is what you as= k for,=0Anot context.=0A=0ASee for yourself:=0A=0ANonsense. There since any= thing can be asserted, I guess context doesn't=0Amatter. Decontextualizing = says possible debate or even thinking Without=0Acontext "is no God." we all= want to whatever we read or experience meaning.=0A=0AThus, the Bible cuts = off an atheistic book and The full quote is "The fool=0Asays in his heart, = at God attribute any complete opposite of the previous=0Aclaim.." In contex= t, we can just the means rational discussion=0A=0AAn example declares God's= nonexistence: Context is king. Without it, it is,=0Athe impossible is all = Bible.=0A=0A=0A--=0A=0AI don't know about the context argument here. It see= ms that you've been=0Apresented with a very concrete outline (via Jason's e= mail) about what and=0Ahow the govt. should act in regards to art. To answe= r all this with "context=0Ais king" seems almost to point out the basely ob= vious.=0A=0A-Ryan=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> I guess context doesn't matter. Without = context, we can just attribute any=0A> meaning at all we want to whatever w= e read or experience. Decontextualizing=0A> cuts off all possible debate or= even thinking.=0A>=0A> An example: the Bible says "There is no God." Thus,= the Bible is an=0A> atheistic book and declares God's nonexistence. Nonsen= se. The full quote is=0A> "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." I= n context, it means the=0A> complete opposite of the previous claim.=0A>=0A= > Context is king. Without it, rational discussion is impossible, since=0A>= anything can be asserted.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ___________= _____________________=0A> From: George Bowering =0A> To: P= OETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:42:44 PM= =0A> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts=0A>=0A> Aw, the old "context" defen= ce!=0A>=0A>=0A> On Feb 22, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A>=0A> > = Context is important to understand meaning as well. Knowing the context=0A>= helps to understand the referent. I'm not saying it was a good sentence --= a=0A> good sentence would have read, "As someone whose family were artists= in WWII=0A> Europe, you . . . , I would think." -- but the referent is in = fact clear in=0A> context of the discussion. It also helps when you don't c= onveniently cut off=0A> the rest of the sentence, thus eliminating context = further.=0A> >=0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > _________________= _______________=0A> > From: Halvard Johnson =0A> > To: P= OETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:12:46 = PM=0A> > Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts=0A> >=0A> > Methinks the phrase= modifies the verb of the clause that follows it.=0A> >=0A> > HJ=0A> >=0A> = > On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 1:57 PM, George Bowering =0A> wr= ote:=0A> >> No, the sentence went this way: "As someone whose family were a= rtists in=0A> >> WWII Europe, I would think . . .. "=0A> >>=0A> >>=0A> >> T= hat is an "I", not a "you". The phrase modifies the pronoun that then=0A> >= > becomes the subject of the sentence.=0A> >>=0A> >> Unless grammar is a ma= tter of the "free" market---=0A> >>=0A> >>=0A> >> gb=0A> >>=0A> >>=0A> >> O= n Feb 19, 2009, at 12:19 PM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A> >>=0A> >>> No. I was r= esponding to the person saying that her family was from=0A> Europe.=0A> >>>= The phrase "As someone whose family were artists in WWII Europe" refers=0A= > to=0A> >>> "you" in the sentence (the "you" was cut off). My family has l= ived in=0A> >>> Kentucky in poverty until my father's generation worked the= ir way out=0A> of it.=0A> >>>=0A> >>> Troy Camplin=0A> >>>=0A> >>>=0A> >>>= =0A> >>> ________________________________=0A> >>> From: George Bowering =0A> >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> >>> Sent: Wedne= sday, February 18, 2009 10:23:05 PM=0A> >>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the A= rts=0A> >>>=0A> >>> Ah, but in his remark to you that guy said that HE was = someone whose=0A> >>> family were artists in Europe.=0A> >>>=0A> >>> On Feb= 18, 2009, at 12:29 PM, Johanna Fisher wrote:=0A> >>>=0A> >>>> George,=0A> = >>>>=0A> >>>> My family as am I are from Western Europe.=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> = Johanna Fisher=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> ---- Original message ----=0A> >>>>>=0A> >= >>>> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 23:30:40 -0800=0A> >>>>> From: "Poetics List (U= Penn, UB)" (on=0A> >>>>> behalf of George Bo= wering )=0A> >>>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts=0A> = >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> On Feb 17, 2009,= at 6:30 PM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>>> As someone whose fami= ly were artists in WWII Europe, I would think=0A> >>>>>>>>>=0A> >>>>>=0A> >= >>>> Was your family in Eastern Europe or Western Europe?=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>= >>=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> George H. Bowering, OUH=0A> >>>>> Born wit= hout a religion.=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>>=0A> >>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0A> >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check= =0A> >>>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/= welcome.html=0A> >>>>=0A> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >>>> The P= oetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> >>>> guidel= ines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> = >>>>=0A> >>>=0A> >>> George Bowering=0A> >>> Scourge of modifier danglers.= =0A> >>>=0A> >>>=0A> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >>> The Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> >>> guidelines & s= ub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >>>=0A> = >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >>> The Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check=0A> >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> ht= tp://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >>>=0A> >>=0A> >> George Bowe= ring, M.A.=0A> >> Acclaimed for his modesty.=0A> >>=0A> >>=0A> >> =3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept a= ll posts. Check=0A> guidelines=0A> >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.= edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >>=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > --=0A> > Halvard Jo= hnson=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > halvard@= gmail.com=0A> > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html=0A> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com= =0A> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com=0A> > http://www.hamiltonston= e.org=0A> > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/vidalocabooks.html=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all post= s. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/we= lcome.html=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List = is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub = info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A>=0A> George H. B= owering=0A> Wishes your happiness.=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guide= lines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>= =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does = not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buf= falo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Po= etics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub= /unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:05:03 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: thanks - jacket has a reviewer for JV KInsella MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone, Jacket magazine now has a reviewer for John Kinsella's 'Divine Comedy' (but I'm sure I'll be back with another request fairly soon ) Best wishes, Pam ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 19:15:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Renowned African American poets Afaa Michael Weaver and Major Jackson will be in a filmed public discussion at Somerville Community Access TV. It will be moderated by Gloria Mindock of the "Cervena Barva Press." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Renowned African American poets Afaa Michael Weaver and Major Jackson wil= l=20 be in a filmed public discussion at Somerville Community Access TV. It wi= ll be=20 moderated by Gloria Mindock of the "Cervena Barva Press." Doug Holder, founder of the independent literary press "Ibbetson Street,"= =20 http://ibbetsonpress.com and the host of the Somerville Community Access= =20 TV Show "Poet to Poet: Writer to Writer" has started the process of organ= izing=20 a public discussion featuring renowned African American poets Afaa Michae= l=20 Weaver (http://afaamweaver.com) and Major Jackson=20 (http://www.majorjackson.com) on April 2, 2009 ( Poetry Month) Somerville poet Afaa Michael Weaver has won the prestigious PUSHCART PRIZ= E=20 (2008) for his poem "American Income," published in POETRY magazine and i= n=20 his collection "Plum Flower Dance" ( U/Pitt Press.) Henry Louis Gates, historian and professor at Harvard University writes o= f=20 Weaver: "Afaa Michael Weaver is one of the most significant poets writing today. = With=20 its blend of Chinese spiritualism and American groundedness, his poetry=20= presents the reader (and the listener, for his body of work is meant to b= e read=20 aloud) with challenging questions about identity, about how physicality a= nd=20 spirit act together or counteract each other to shape who we are in the w= orld.=20 His attention to the way language works is rare, and the effects of that=20= attention on his poetry are distinctive and expansive."=20 Major Jackson is the author of two collections of poetry: Hoops (Norton: = 2006)=20 and Leaving Saturn (University of Georgia: 2002), winner of the 2000 Cave= =20 Canem Poetry Prize and finalist for a National Book Critics Circle Award.= Hoops=20 was a finalist for an NAACP Image Award in the category of Outstanding=20= Literature - Poetry. He has received critical attention in The Boston Glo= be,=20 Christian Science Monitor, Parnassus, Philadelphia Inquirer, and on Natio= nal=20 Public Radio's 'All Things Considered.' His poems have appeared in the Am= erican=20 Poetry Review, Boulevard, Callaloo, The New Yorker, Post Road, Poetry,=20= Triquarterly, among other literary journals and anthologies. He is a reci= pient of=20 a Whiting Writers' Award and has been honored by the Pew Fellowship in th= e=20 Arts and the Witter Bynner Foundation in conjunction with the Library of=20= Congress. Last year, he served as a creative arts fellow at the Radcliffe= =20 Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard University and as the Jack Keroua= c=20 Writer-in-Residence at University of Massachusetts-Lowell. Major Jackson = is=20 an Associate Professor of English at University of Vermont and a core fac= ulty=20 member of the Bennington Writing Seminars. he is the current poetry edito= r of=20 the Harvard Review. A description of the discussion is as follows: "Two Generations of Black Male Poets/ Two Sets of Eyes on the Urban=20 Landscape Afaa Weaver & Major Jackson In a public chat in the SCAT television studios in Somerville, these two = poets=20 share the experience of their lives as black men who came of age in large= =20 American cities, Baltimore and Philadelphia. They discuss the music, visu= al art,=20 and literature that were influential in their times, from The Temptations= to=20 Grandmaster Flash and Chuck D, from Ron Milner to Susan Lori Parks, and=20= more. They share intimate moments in their lives and some of their own wo= rk=20 as well as that of poets they know and admire in an evening setting in th= e=20 burgeoning artistic community north of Cambridge to be recorded in front = of=20 the live audience." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 20:02:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: HOWE & LONEY READ AT THE POETRY PROJECT ON MONDAY MARCH 2 2009 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable FANNY HOWE & ALAN LONEY POETRY PROJECT Monday, March 2, 8 PM FANNY HOWE has written several books of fiction and poetry. Her new collection of essays, The Winter Sun, from Graywolf Press and a story calle= d =B3What Did I Do Wrong?=B2 from Flood Editions, are being published Spring 2009= . She has received many awards, including one recently for poetry from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. She teaches at Glenstal Abbey in Ireland every summer. ALAN LONEY had his first book of poems published in 1971 and began printing in 1974. He was co-winner of the poetry prize in the New Zealand Book Award= s in 1977, Literary Fellow at the University of Auckland in 1992, and Honorar= y Fellow of the Australian Centre at the University of Melbourne 2002-2006. H= e was Convener of the Conference on the History of the Book in New Zealand at University of Auckland 1995. Loney has published 11 books of poetry, and eight books of prose with a recent emphasis on the nature of the book. Fine editions of his work have been issued by Granary Books, The Janus Press, Barbarian Press, Red Dragonfly Press, Pear Tree Press and The Holloway Press. Formulations of Loney's thinking about the relations between poetry and typography have appeared with Cuneiform Press in Meditatio: the printer printed: manifesto; The printing of a masterpiece published by Black Pepper Press; and Each new book, issued by Peter Koch at Hormone Derange Editions. A short account of Loney's printerly life and a checklist of his first 50 printed books can be found in The Private Library, Winter 2007, and his mos= t recent book of poems is Day's Eye (Rubicon Press, Canada 2008). He was Printer in Residence at the University of Otago for 2008, and an exhibition of his books was held Sept-Oct 2008 at the Christchurch Art Gallery, New Zealand. Website: www.electioeditions.com The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 01:22:00 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Advertise in Boog City 55 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ------------------ Advertise in Boog City 55 featuring Urban Folk 18 **Deadlines** =97Space Reservations-Email to reserve ad space ASAP =97Tues. March 10-Submit Ad or Ad Materials =97Tues. March 17-Distribute Paper This is a quick note to see if you=92d like to advertise and reach our =20= readership. (Donations are also cool, way cool.) We=92ll be distributing 2,250 copies of the issue throughout the East =20= Village and other parts of lower Manhattan; Williamsburg and =20 Greenpoint, Brooklyn; and at Boog City events. ----- Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or =20 upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be =20= reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, =20 advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again =20 offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to =20= $40. The discount rate also applies to larger ads. For our full rate card, please visit: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/boog_city_ad_rates.pdf Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG (2664) for more =20 information. as ever, David --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664)= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 04:38:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amanda Earl Subject: AngelHousePress - Poetry Call - March 15 deadline Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <49A7E77E.4496.B5553EA@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed To celebrate National Poetry Month in April, AngelHousePress will be publishing a poem a day on line. I invite you to send your poetry for consideration. Please send one poem, plus photo and bio to amanda@angelhousepress.com by March 15, 2009. Please note that visual poetry is also and especially welcome (in the form of jpgs) and that even though the nation being referred to in National Poetry Month is Canada, poets of all nations are welcome to send work because the nation is really poetry without any borders or boundaries. i need about 14 more poems to complete the month. i'll also look at the poems i receive for possible publication in the annual on line pdf journal Experiment-o.com that comes out in November. Please feel free to pass on this call to all interested parties. AngelHousePress publishes chapbooks, an on line essay series and Experiment-o. thanks for your time and attention. Amanda Earl AngelHousePress www.angelhousepress.com the angel is in the house ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 04:03:13 -0800 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Eileen Tabios & Rufo Quintavalle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out excellent new work from France's Rufo Quintavalle and California'= s Eileen Tabios on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 And please have a look/consider purchasing my new Blazevox book: =A0 http://www.blazevox.org/bk-af.htm =A0 Peace Out! Adam=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Subject: PennSound now twittering Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are using Twitter, please follow PennSound for updates on new recordings and links always worth checking out: http://twitter.com/PennSound - Al Filreis http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <359401.17271.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, The market consists of people who can afford (affordability must come along with willingness) to buy things. In other words, the market does not necessarily have to include the poor in its "benevolent," "natural" loop. This is something to keep in mind as our country, and the world, seem to be moving inexorably towards depression. Ciao, Murat On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > You are mistaking "the market" for "democracy." You are correct to make a > distinction between the market and individuals. One thing that the market > does allow is the creation of niches. Mass production is not identical wi= th > the market, though it can be a feature of it. If there is enough people w= ho > want something, someone will come along to supply it. That is the main > feature of the market. Certainly with copy prices so low, and the existen= ce > of the internet, and now Kindle, the availability of art of all sorts hav= e > blossomed. I see the development of things such as the Kindle -- a produc= t > of the market -- as a way for many more people to be able to sell their > literary works, since almost all costs have been eliminated for publisher= s. > And as the market allows for the creation of more and more such technolog= y, > it's going to be easier and easier for writers to make their works availa= ble > for sale. We are at the cusp of another information boom, which will > make literary works far more available -- and the government far less > necessary. > > The market produces a wide variety of things, including kitsch -- but mos= t > certainly kitsch is not the only thing it produces. If you truly believe = it > is, then you have chosen to blind yourself to much of reality, I'm afraid= . > Or perhaps you ought to get out of Canada more often. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: cris costa > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:59:13 AM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > It's good to see someone south of the boarder standing up for government > funding in Canadian arts. Thanks Francois. To add to that, it is the > government funding allows all the talented writers (particularly the ones > mentioned below) to create their work and distribute it, because although > their work is brilliant, it's not easily digestible (in terms of what the > market requires for consumption), and therefore opposed to the principles > that govern "the market". > > However, a major problem that I noticed from the start of this debate is > that it is taking for granted (in life, in this conversation) that "the > market" indeed has skills of discernment. The market cannot recognize > anything. It's not a person, nor does it have eyes, or thoughts, or > feelings. Though "the market" may require humans to exist or to perpetuat= e > itself, human "taste" (as relative and arbitrary as that may be) plays a > minuscule role in determining what is produced by the market. In order fo= r > the market to operate as it does, it requires "efficiency" (translate: ch= eap > products, made quickly, sold for a lot of money). Human desire comes into > play at one point or another, but psychoanalysts and cultural theorists > across the board have demonstrated time and again that desire is just as > easily appeased with simulation and simulacra as it is with the "authenti= c" > thing. > > Therefore, the market generates "schlock and kitsch" (as the big ol' F.J. > puts it) in order to sustain itself. The subject who is fully immersed in > the market--that is the ideal market-subject who can supposedly discern--= is > equally satisfied with kitsch as it is with anything else. > > Perhaps you're not. And I think, neither are most people on this listserv= . > Which is the point I'm making. > > So three cheers for government funding for the arts! > > -c. > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:32:53 -0500 > > From: neuroticme@YAHOO.COM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Troy, > > > > As I read your responses to George Bowering, I am somewhat struck by > their > > ignorance.. First of all, George Bowering probably receives or has > received > > grants from the Canada Council of the Arts or his province's art > > administration. Secondly, the Canadian government has provides much mor= e > > funding for its artists than the free(er) market United States and has > > allowed its literature to be much more vibrant and interesting than the > vast > > majority of American poetry (some examples of fine Canadian poets: Erin > > Mour=E9, Nicole Broussard, Aaron Peck, angela rawlings, Jordan Scott, .= ..). > > The same can be said of many Western European countries where the > government > > provides subsidies for its writers and artists. > > > > Best, > > > > fran=E7ois luong > > > > PS: I am not Canadian or a resident of Canada. > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 03:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: new installation at the Odyssey site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed After much turmoil and eternal thanks to Sugar Seville There's a new installation at the site. The particle count is low, about 1/8 of what it was on Ian's Hybrid OCAD. I took out the other uneditable particle scripts from the building prims with a dead particle script. The object count is low. This should be ok for now. I'm documenting now so it doesn't have to remain. Selavy Oh is going to work with it and hopefully Doncoyote Antonelli will reinstall his piece. Thanks Alan http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:50:34 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <423153.10088.qm@web46211.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker playing dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic merit"! There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If it had been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of legislation ever and popular support was vastly against it. John Herbert Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Troy Camplin Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Gift Economy Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The market is in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the horror of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have access to works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only listen to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we would only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing something along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I listen to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons why I set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of the arts -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; collectivist egalitarianism, no. Troy Camplin ________________________________ From: Marcus Bales To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM Subject: Re: Gift Economy The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free market is a good judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an untenable position: he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and that some people can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one that will get him in a lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy as an equality-hater. Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than others, or some poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? Marcus On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Gift Economy To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich > Troy, > > Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false > dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was > only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good judge > of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have > responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. > > What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can > actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of > the gift economy. > > from Wikipedia: > > > A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are > given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid > pro quo. > Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and > redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered > a > form of reciprocal altruism. > The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned > economy or a market or barter economy. > In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by > explicit > command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or > market > economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some > other commodity - is established before the transaction takes > place. > > Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a > different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as > Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have social > safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without > becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. > > I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending, > starting with the outlays for militarism: > > > Again Wiki: > > > As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 > trillion annually on defense-related purposes. > > Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved > areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a > bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes much > less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and > I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs > FREE MARKET, little light is generated. > > Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling > about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and > Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free > Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway, > the mission of this listserv. May it be so. > > > Paul > > > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." > The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an > imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a > wide variety of options. The government does not give you options. > It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like > government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car? > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub, > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be > government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone > deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom > you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or > should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by > democratic vote? How many here write anything a > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar > problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are > already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they > are not successful, how does the government determine who to give > funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what > prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough > really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get > a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history > of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the > arts. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Nelson > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > One > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this > list, > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the > fact > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not > going > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you > want > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good > -- > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating people > in > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have > to > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw > men > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > > Troy Camplin > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as > any > guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, > but > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > Paul E. Nelson > > Global Voices Radio > SPLAB! > American Sentences > Organic Poetry > Poetry Postcard Blog > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3 - Release Date: > 2/22/2009 12:00 AM > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:07:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Comments: To: bowering@sfu.ca In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Second, the market also comes before governments, not before. > On 28 Feb 2009 at 17:48, George Bowering wrote: > Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect from the > right. I'm a liberal, not on "the right". There is a value to understanding how things work even for liberals. However postmodern or leftist you may be, I'll bet you still go the doctor when you're sick; I'll bet you don't doubt whether jerking the steering wheel to the side will put you in a ditch; I'll bet you don't simply step out of a flying airplane when it comes to your destination city; I'll bet you don't tighten bolts while hoping to loosen them, or eat your own feces under the impression it's food. The world works the way it really works, no matter what unlikely theory you may be under the sway of regarding art. Marcus ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:17:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <928481.23965.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Troy, "HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more corrupt, and that government is far more corrupting, than are those who participate in the free market." Oh come now: history is written by free market wonks! I'm glad to see you're a patron of great grammar and fine language skills, but for the love of G-d, why are you buying into this propaganda? What history books are you reading? Where are you getting your information from? -Ryan On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more corrupt, and > that government is far more corrupting, than are those who participate in > the free market, or than the free market is. > > I don't deny the importance of patronage. We need a gift market as well. A > free gift market is not inconsistent with the market economy. In fact, there > is a long history of very wealthy capitalists who were incredibly generous > with their largesse. Which is to be compared with government leaders, who > are incredibly generous with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral > -- to be generous with other people's money. So patronage is important. I > think it should come about voluntarily. You think it is perfectly acceptable > to take money by force (try not to pay your taxes and see if it isn't taken > by force). That is where we disagree. In fact, I think patronage is so > important, I have started a nonprofit organization to provide patronage for > the arts. We won't take money form the government, though, as I find taking > money from the government to be unethical. We will take voluntary donations > from people so that we can one day patronize artists, writers, > etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of. > > There is no such thing as a disinterested outcome when it comes to people. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > Brava, Alison. > > At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote: > > I live in a country where there is government subsidy for the arts. It > > is by no means a bad thing. It is vastly prefereble for, say, poetry > > publishers to be subsidised to publish poetry books than the system > > you have in the US, where publishers run competitions charging > > appellants to enter so they can continue to publish books, which > > creates a competition culture that is, to my mind, more corrupting by > > far. Your deep study of history, Troy, will have shown you that while > > some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the stuff we > > now consider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of > > patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether it's a wealthy > > patron or a government sponsored organisation, and someone has to > > decide where it ought to go, and sometimes it will be wasted and > > sometimes it will not. And any scheme is going to be imperfect. There > > wil be patrons with exercrable taste who only want to be flattered, > > corporations with no taste at all which only want to be flattered, and > > governments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic boxes. But > > in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among the evils on offer, > > because there is actually in practice more chance of a disinterested > > outcome. In Australia, it is arms length funding with a process of > > peer review. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, as I > > said, but as a system it produces a lot of very high quality art that > > otherwise would be unsustainable. > > > > A > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." The > market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an imperfect > arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a wide variety of > options. The government does not give you options. It is a monopoly. You get > what they give you, or nothing. Don't like government-brand corn? Too bad. > Don't like the government-brand car? Too bad. Don't like government-brand > art? AH, but there's the rub, isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there > will be government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone deciding > who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't think so. Me? > Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom you agree; next year > it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or should there be a democratic > vote? Do you really want art by democratic vote? How many here write > anything a > > > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar > problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the problems of > both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? How much funding? > To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to give it to those who are > already successful -- but then, if they are already successful, why do they > need government funding? And if they are not successful, how does the > government determine who to give funding to, who to support? Based on > production? Well, then, what prevents us from having cheaters, who will > produce just enough really bad art to get the funding just so they don't > have to go get a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the > history of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the arts. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Paul Nelson > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO..EDU > > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > > > From: Troy Camplin > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > > > One > > > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this list, > > > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the fact > > > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during > > > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not going > > > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you want > > > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good -- > > > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating people in > > > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have to > > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw men > > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as any > > > guide to quality in the arts.. In fact, the opposite may be true, but > > > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > > > Global Voices Radio > > > SPLAB! > > > American Sentences > > > Organic Poetry > > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:29:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <928481.23965.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:42 PM 3/1/2009, you wrote: >HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more >corrupt, and that government is far more corrupting, than are those >who participate in the free market, or than the free market is. Not really. Of course, it's been hard to know what a free market is for the past several millennia. And market suppliers, free or otherwise, are usually in some sort of partnership with government. Mark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:33:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! Comments: To: emersoninst@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <928481.23965.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 1 Mar 2009 at 12:42, Troy Camplin wrote: > HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more > corrupt, and that government is far more corrupting, than are those > who participate in the free market, or than the free market is. Wrong, Troy, on both counts. History shows that privilege corrupts, whatever form it may take -- and it doesn't matter where privilege comes from, it corrupts equally across all classes and modes of life. There is no such thing as a government more corrupt than a market, or a market more corrupt than a government. People will always find a way to cheat to get ahead, and those who do will be privileged over those who don't, and those who are privileged will find a way to institutionalize their privilege. In fact proponents of government and of the market are in a constant balancing act, each trying to catch the other out in their inevitable corruptions. Markets without regulatory governments are brutalizing; governments without liberating markets are brutalizing. Even without transparency in regulation and operation governments and markets balance one another to a limited extent. But the more transparency there is in both regulation and market operation the better the balance between governments and markets work. The problem isn't government/market, or left/right; the problem is people are perfectly willing to lie and cheat under any system to gain privilege for themselves, their families, and their friends, and then try to institutionalize those privileges for their own, and their progeny's, advantage. Under any form of social organization the liars and cheaters will gain privilege and institutionalize those privileges. The struggle is to marginalize the liars and cheaters and maximize transparency of operation in order to make it just a little more likely that the people willing to accede to the rules and work hard within them will not have their gains stolen from them by the liars and cheaters. But the temptation to lie a little and cheat a little is endemic to the human animal. You can see it in operation even in gift economies where if you disagree with the people in charge they'll kick you out of the discussion group, or put you on read-only status and prevent you from joining in even if you can read what others say. Marcus > > I don't deny the importance of patronage. We need a gift market as > well. A free gift market is not inconsistent with the market > economy. In fact, there is a long history of very wealthy > capitalists who were incredibly generous with their largesse. Which > is to be compared with government leaders, who are incredibly > generous with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral -- to > be generous with other people's money. So patronage is important. I > think it should come about voluntarily. You think it is perfectly > acceptable to take money by force (try not to pay your taxes and see > if it isn't taken by force). That is where we disagree. In fact, I > think patronage is so important, I have started a nonprofit > organization to provide patronage for the arts. We won't take money > form the government, though, as I find taking money from the > government to be unethical. We will take voluntary donations from > people so that we can one day patronize artists, writers, > etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of. > > There is no such thing as a disinterested outcome when it comes to > people. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Weiss > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > Brava, Alison. > > At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote: > > I live in a country where there is government subsidy for the > arts. It > > is by no means a bad thing. It is vastly prefereble for, say, > poetry > > publishers to be subsidised to publish poetry books than the > system > > you have in the US, where publishers run competitions charging > > appellants to enter so they can continue to publish books, > which > > creates a competition culture that is, to my mind, more corrupting > by > > far. Your deep study of history, Troy, will have shown you that > while > > some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the stuff > we > > now consider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of > > patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether it's a > wealthy > > patron or a government sponsored organisation, and someone has > to > > decide where it ought to go, and sometimes it will be wasted and > > sometimes it will not. And any scheme is going to be imperfect. > There > > wil be patrons with exercrable taste who only want to be > flattered, > > corporations with no taste at all which only want to be flattered, > and > > governments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic boxes. > But > > in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among the evils on > offer, > > because there is actually in practice more chance of a > disinterested > > outcome. In Australia, it is arms length funding with a process > of > > peer review. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, as > I > > said, but as a system it produces a lot of very high quality art > that > > otherwise would be unsustainable. > > > > A > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin > wrote: > > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be > true." The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is > an imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for > a wide variety of options. The government does not give you options. > It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like > government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car? > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub, > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be > government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone > deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom > you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or > should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by > democratic vote? How many here write > anything a > > > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? > Similar problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are > already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they > are not successful, how does the government determine who to give > funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what > prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough > really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get > a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history > of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the > arts. > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Paul Nelson > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO..EDU > > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > > > From: Troy Camplin > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > > > One > > > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this > list, > > > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to > the fact > > > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy > during > > > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not > going > > > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If > you want > > > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and > good -- > > > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating > people in > > > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people > have to > > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few > straw men > > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market > as any > > > guide to quality in the arts.. In fact, the opposite may be > true, but > > > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > > > Global Voices Radio > > > SPLAB! > > > American Sentences > > > Organic Poetry > > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: > 3/1/2009 5:46 PM > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:53:28 EST Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: "Celebration of Women Writers," WKCR 89.9 Friday March 6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larissa Shmailo will be on the radio show "Celebration of Women Writers" Art Waves, 89.9 FM (broadcast in New York City); Internet _www.wkcr.org_ (http://www.wkcr.org/) Friday, March 6, 9:00-10:00 PM (with Saskia Hamilton, Susan Maurer, and others). **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:46:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! Comments: To: junction@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20090227110855.0681bc08@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, Allison Croggon wrote: > > ... some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the stuff > we > >now consider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of > >patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether it's a > wealthy > >patron or a government sponsored organisation, and someone has to > >decide where it ought to go ... Wait a minute, now! What's this? "most valuable"? Where does this come from? On what grounds is some art "most valuable" while other art is not "most valuable"? How do you measure merit in the arts, Allison? How do you determine what art is "most valuable"? Marcus ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 03.02.09 - 03.08.09 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 03.02.09-03.08.09 EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the public unless othe= rwise noted. 03.04.09 Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College Allen Shelton Reading Wednesday, March 4, 4:30 PM E.H. Butler Library, Int'l Student Ctr., 3rd Floor Talking Leaves...Books Margaret Wooster Talk/Signing: =22Living Waters=22 Wednesday, March 4, 7 PM Talking Leaves Books, 3158 Main St. Just Buffalo/Center For Inquiry Literary Caf=C7 Carl Dennis Poetry Reading Wednesday, March 4, 7:30 PM Center for Inquiry, 1310 Sweet Home Rd., Amherst 03.05.09 Students For Peace/Buffalo State College Amiri Baraka Reading and Speaking Thursday, March 5, 3 p.m. Social Hall, Campbell Student Union, Buffalo State College Poetics Plus at UB/Burchfield Penney Art Center Poets Theater Student Performance of Rare Poet's Plays Thursday, March 5, 7 PM Burchfield Penney Art Center, 1300 Elmwood Ave 03.06.09 Starcherone Books Naked Kitchen Yoga Small Press Writers Read Friday, March 6, 7 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. 03.07.09 Just Buffalo/Interdisciplinary Performance Series Blue Notes Blues Music, Blues Poetry Open Mic Saturday, March 7, 8 PM Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. ___________________________________________________________________________ BABEL ISABEL ALLENDE READING ON APRIL 17 MOVED TO KLEINHANS MUSIC HALL=21 INDIVIDUAL TICKETS ARE ON SALE NOW=21 =24100 PATRON LEVEL (Includes reserved seating area tickets plus admission = to pre-event reception with Isabel Allende at Henry's restaurant in Kleinha= ns) =2430 GENERAL ADMISSION (Includes general admission seating to event) Visit www.justbuffalo.org or call 832.5400 to order yours now. SPECIAL RATES (PHONE ORDERS ONLY) =2425 GROUP RATE (per ticket for orders of three or more; must order at the= same time) =2420 CURRENT SUBSCRIBER RATE (current subscribers can purchase as many tic= kets as they like for this special rate) =2410 CLASSROOM RATE (teachers can purchase groups of ten or more tickets f= or students for this low student rate) CALL 832.5400 TO ORDER IN-PERSON ONLY RATE (can be purchased at Just Buffalo or at the event only) =2410 STUDENT INDIVIDUAL RATE (for students with current, valid student I.D= =2E) ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:48:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Comments: To: marcus@designerglass.com In-Reply-To: <49ABAFE5.23829.119AC0@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:07 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > > On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > Second, the market also comes before governments, not before. > > > On 28 Feb 2009 at 17:48, George Bowering wrote: > > Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect from the > > right. > > I'm a liberal, not on "the right". > > There is a value to understanding how things work even for liberals. > > However postmodern or leftist you may be, I'll bet you still go the > doctor when you're sick; I'll bet you don't doubt whether jerking > the steering wheel to the side will put you in a ditch; Ah, but to parallel what you say above, I might jerk it to the left but not to the left. > George Henry Bowering Once saw Alexis Smith plain. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:52:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Poetry Night, Albany, March 19, Miriam Herrera Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed The Poetry Motel Foundation Presents Poet Miriam Herrera to read at the Social Justice Center Thursday, March 19, 7:30PM Local poet Miriam Herrera will read from her work at the Social =20 Justice Center, 33 Central Ave., Albany on Thursday, March 19, 2009. =20= Herrera has taught creative writing and Chicano/Latino Literature at =20 the University of Illinois, University of New Mexico at Los Alamos, =20 and at Russell Sage College in Troy. Her book of poems Kaddish for =20 Columbus was published recently by Finishing Line Press, New Women=92s =20= Voices series. A reading by a local or regional poet is held each Third Thursday at =20 the Social Justice Center. The event includes an open mic for =20 audience members to read. Sign-up starts at 7:00PM, with the reading =20= beginning at 7:30. The host of the readings is Albany poet and =20 photographer Dan Wilcox. The suggested donation is $3.00, which =20 helps support this and other poetry programs of the Poetry Motel =20 Foundation, and the work of the Social Justice Center. For more information about this event contact Dan Wilcox, =20 518-482-0262; e-mail: dwlcx@earthlink.net. The Social Justice Center, founded in 1981, is a non-profit =20 organization working for progressive social change through education, =20= community building and collective action. The center advances the =20 struggles against racism and for peace and justice. For further =20 information about the SJC call 518-434-4037. # =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:41:21 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Steve Halle Subject: Simone Muench @ Seven Corners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a break and read three great new poems by *Simone Muench*, featured now at *Seven Corners* (http://www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com/). Cheers, Steve Halle Editor ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:19:08 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Gift Economy Comments: To: johncunningham366@mts.net In-Reply-To: <004b01c99b46$3dcd98f0$b968cad0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT But John, what's wrong with poker-playing dogs? What's wrong with the market as a democratic determiner of merit? I thought that's what all the postmodernists WANT is to eliminate the very elitist notion that there's something wrong with poker-playing dogs. Nothing is better than anything else -- everything is equal in merit and value; anything is art that anyone says is art! How can you possibly claim that anything is better or worse, or that there is more or less merit to this or that kind of art? On what grounds do you hold that poker-playing dogs are meritless, or at least of less merit than ... than what, John? What do you say is better, and why do you say it is better, than poker-playing dogs? Marcus On 2 Mar 2009 at 8:50, John Cunningham wrote: > Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker > playing > dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic > merit"! > There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If > it had > been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as > the > Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of > legislation > ever and popular support was vastly against it. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > Behalf Of Troy Camplin > Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The > market is > in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to > the horror > of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have > access to > works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only > listen > to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we > would > only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing > something > along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can > I listen > to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the > reasons why I > set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of > the arts > -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; > collectivist egalitarianism, no. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Marcus Bales > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a > free market > is a good > judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in > an > untenable position: > he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and > that > some people > can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one > that > will get him in a > lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy > as an > equality-hater. > Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than > others, > or some > poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! > > You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? > > Marcus > > > On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: > > Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 > Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > > From: Paul Nelson > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich > > Troy, > > > > Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false > > dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I > was > > only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good > judge > > of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have > > responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. > > > > What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can > > actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part > of > > the gift economy. > > > > from Wikipedia: > > > > > > A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services > are > > given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future > quid > > pro quo. > > Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and > > redistribute valuables within a community. This can be > considered > > a > > form of reciprocal altruism. > > The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned > > economy or a market or barter economy. > > In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by > > explicit > > command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or > > market > > economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or > some > > other commodity - is established before the transaction takes > > place. > > > > Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a > > different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as > > Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have > social > > safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without > > becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. > > > > I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal > Spending, > > starting with the outlays for militarism: > > > > > > Again Wiki: > > > > > > As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 > > trillion annually on defense-related purposes. > > > > Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in > underserved > > areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a > > bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes > much > > less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you > and > > I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT > vs > > FREE MARKET, little light is generated. > > > > Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some > inkling > > about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and > > Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free > > Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory > anyway, > > the mission of this listserv. May it be so. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > Global Voices Radio > > SPLAB! > > American Sentences > > Organic Poetry > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Troy Camplin > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be > true." > > The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an > > imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for > a > > wide variety of options. The government does not give you > options. > > It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't > like > > government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand > car? > > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the > rub, > > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be > > government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > > support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be > someone > > deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I > don't > > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with > whom > > you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. > Or > > should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by > > democratic vote? How many here write anything a > > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? > Similar > > problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the > > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be > determined? > > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be > to > > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they > are > > already successful, why do they need government funding? And if > they > > are not successful, how does the government determine who to > give > > funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, > what > > prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough > > really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go > get > > a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the > history > > of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other > > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the > > arts. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Nelson > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > From: Troy Camplin > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > One > > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this > > list, > > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to > the > > fact > > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy > during > > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not > > going > > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If > you > > want > > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and > good > > -- > > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating > people > > in > > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people > have > > to > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few > straw > > men > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market > as > > any > > guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, > > but > > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > Global Voices Radio > > SPLAB! > > American Sentences > > Organic Poetry > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3 - Release Date: > > 2/22/2009 12:00 AM > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: > 3/1/2009 5:46 PM > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:26:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Comments: To: George Bowering In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just so -- because you know jerking it to the left will put you in a ditch. We're agreed on that. But don't you see that once we're agreed on that it vitiates the whole of postmodernist relativism? It is simply not the case that everything is the same as everything else; not the case that any one thing is as valuable as any other thing; not the case that one effort is just as valuable as a different effort; not the case that anything is art that anyone says is art? Marcus On 2 Mar 2009 at 9:48, George Bowering wrote: Copies to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Date sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:48:21 -0800 To: marcus@designerglass.com > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:07 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > > > > On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > Second, the market also comes before governments, not > before. > > > > > On 28 Feb 2009 at 17:48, George Bowering wrote: > > > Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect from > the > > > right. > > > > I'm a liberal, not on "the right". > > > > There is a value to understanding how things work even for > liberals. > > > > However postmodern or leftist you may be, I'll bet you still go > the > > doctor when you're sick; I'll bet you don't doubt whether jerking > > the steering wheel to the side will put you in a ditch; > > Ah, but to parallel what you say above, > > I might jerk it to the left but not to the left. > > > > > > George Henry Bowering > Once saw Alexis Smith plain. > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:33:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit doesn't that drive you straight into oncoming traffic ?? On Mar 2, 2009, at 12:48 PM, George Bowering wrote: > On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:07 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > >>> On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >>>> Second, the market also comes before governments, not before. >>> >> On 28 Feb 2009 at 17:48, George Bowering wrote: >>> Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect from the >>> right. >> >> I'm a liberal, not on "the right". >> >> There is a value to understanding how things work even for liberals. >> >> However postmodern or leftist you may be, I'll bet you still go the >> doctor when you're sick; I'll bet you don't doubt whether jerking >> the steering wheel to the side will put you in a ditch; > > Ah, but to parallel what you say above, > > I might jerk it to the left but not to the left. > > >> > > George Henry Bowering > Once saw Alexis Smith plain. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:49:24 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Comments: To: marcus@designerglass.com In-Reply-To: <49ABDE8C.21661.C7D78A@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Mar 2, 2009, at 10:26 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > Just so -- because you know jerking it to the left will put you in > a ditch. We're agreed on that. > > But don't you see that once we're agreed on that it vitiates the > whole of postmodernist relativism? It is simply not the case that > everything is the same as everything else; not the case that any > one thing is as valuable as any other thing; not the case that one > effort is just as valuable as a different effort; not the case that > anything is art that anyone says is art? Of course I agree with that. I just don't see how the market can come before governments ]and also not before governments. gb > > Marcus > > > On 2 Mar 2009 at 9:48, George Bowering wrote: > > Copies to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > > From: George Bowering > Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > Date sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:48:21 -0800 > To: marcus@designerglass.com > > > > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:07 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > > > > > > On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > > Second, the market also comes before governments, not > > before. > > > > > > > On 28 Feb 2009 at 17:48, George Bowering wrote: > > > > Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect from > > the > > > > right. > > > > > > I'm a liberal, not on "the right". > > > > > > There is a value to understanding how things work even for > > liberals. > > > > > > However postmodern or leftist you may be, I'll bet you still go > > the > > > doctor when you're sick; I'll bet you don't doubt whether jerking > > > the steering wheel to the side will put you in a ditch; > > > > Ah, but to parallel what you say above, > > > > I might jerk it to the left but not to the left. > > > > > > > > > > > George Henry Bowering > > Once saw Alexis Smith plain. > > > > > > George B. Author of his own misfortunes. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:19:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, to quote Lord Acton, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power = corrupts absolutely." Where power is spread out, there is less corruption; = where power is concentrated, there is more corruption. Certainly there are = cheaters in every group, in every system. But insofar as market economies s= pread out power quite a bit, and insofar as government concentrate power qu= ite a bit, government are necessarily more corrupt than are markets. More, = the structures of government tend to protect corruption more than does the = market. Cheaters exposed in government often are rewarded; cheaters exposed= in the economy often lose their wealth (there are exceptions to both cases= , but the exceptions do not negate the rule). I'm certainly no anarchist, s= o I'm not arguing for no role for government. There is a role in providing = equal protection under the law (which is another way of saying that governm= ent should only have laws that are able to be applied to everybody equally, and of which everybody is equally the beneficiary). There is a ro= le for the enforcement of contracts voluntarily entered into and the enforc= ement of laws against murder, lying/cheating, and theft (I also think gover= nments should not engage in such actions). You are otherwise correct about = any social system necessarily having cheaters in it. The question is, what = rules will marginalize the cheaters? Transparency laws and labeling laws ar= e thus important and necessary. And transparency should extend to the gover= nment as well. We have lacked transparency in government for a long time, a= nd it has only gotten worse over the past 8 years -- and it doesn't look li= ke it's going to get any better with the current administration. =0A=0ATroy= Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Marcus Bales <= marcus@DESIGNERGLASS.COM>=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday= , March 2, 2009 9:33:50 AM=0ASubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A= =0AOn 1 Mar 2009 at 12:42, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A> HIstory shows the people= in government are far, far, far more=0A> corrupt, and that government is f= ar more corrupting, than are those=0A> who participate in the free market, = or than the free market is. =0A=0AWrong, Troy, on both counts.=0A=0AHistory= shows that privilege corrupts, whatever form it may take -- and it doesn't= matter =0Awhere privilege comes from, it corrupts equally across all class= es and modes of life. =0AThere is no such thing as a government more corrup= t than a market, or a market more =0Acorrupt than a government. People will= always find a way to cheat to get ahead, and =0Athose who do will be privi= leged over those who don't, and those who are privileged will =0Afind a way= to institutionalize their privilege.=0A=0AIn fact proponents of government= and of the market are in a constant balancing act, =0Aeach trying to catch= the other out in their inevitable corruptions. Markets without =0Aregulato= ry governments are brutalizing; governments without liberating markets are = =0Abrutalizing. Even without transparency in regulation and operation gover= nments and =0Amarkets balance one another to a limited extent. But the more= transparency there is in =0Aboth regulation and market operation the bette= r the balance between governments and =0Amarkets work.=0A=0AThe problem isn= 't government/market, or left/right; the problem is people are perfectly = =0Awilling to lie and cheat under any system to gain privilege for themselv= es, their families, =0Aand their friends, and then try to institutionalize = those privileges for their own, and their =0Aprogeny's, advantage. =0A=0AUn= der any form of social organization the liars and cheaters will gain privil= ege and =0Ainstitutionalize those privileges. The struggle is to marginaliz= e the liars and cheaters =0Aand maximize transparency of operation in order= to make it just a little more likely that =0Athe people willing to accede = to the rules and work hard within them will not have their =0Agains stolen = from them by the liars and cheaters. =0A=0ABut the temptation to lie a litt= le and cheat a little is endemic to the human animal. You =0Acan see it in = operation even in gift economies where if you disagree with the people in = =0Acharge they'll kick you out of the discussion group, or put you on read-= only status and =0Aprevent you from joining in even if you can read what ot= hers say.=0A=0AMarcus=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A> =0A> I don't deny the importance o= f patronage. We need a gift market as=0A> well. A free gift market is not i= nconsistent with the market=0A> economy. In fact, there is a long history o= f very wealthy=0A> capitalists who were incredibly generous with their larg= esse. Which=0A> is to be compared with government leaders, who are incredib= ly=0A> generous with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral -- to= =0A> be generous with other people's money. So patronage is important. I=0A= > think it should come about voluntarily. You think it is perfectly=0A> acc= eptable to take money by force (try not to pay your taxes and see=0A> if it= isn't taken by force). That is where we disagree. In fact, I=0A> think pat= ronage is so important, I have started a nonprofit=0A> organization to prov= ide patronage for the arts. We won't take money=0A> form the government, th= ough, as I find taking money from the=0A> government to be unethical. We wi= ll take voluntary donations from=0A> people so that we can one day patroniz= e artists, writers,=0A> etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of.= =0A> =0A> There is no such thing as a disinterested outcome when it comes t= o=0A> people. =0A> =0A> Troy Camplin=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ___________________= _____________=0A> From: Mark Weiss =0A> To: POETICS= @LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM=0A> S= ubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A> =0A> Brava, Alison.=0A> =0A> = At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote:=0A> > I live in a country where there is = government subsidy for the=0A> arts. It=0A> > is by no means a bad thing. I= t is vastly prefereble for, say,=0A> poetry=0A> > publishers to be subsidis= ed to publish poetry books than the=0A> system=0A> > you have in the US, wh= ere publishers run competitions charging=0A> > appellants to enter so they = can continue to publish books,=0A> which=0A> > creates a competition cultu= re that is, to my mind, more corrupting=0A> by=0A> > far. Your deep study o= f history, Troy, will have shown you that=0A> while=0A> > some art can be s= elf-supporting, much of it, and much of the stuff=0A> we=0A> > now consider= most valuable, was only sustained by some form of=0A> > patronage. Money h= as to come from somewhere; whether it's a=0A> wealthy=0A> > patron or a gov= ernment sponsored organisation, and someone has=0A> to=0A> > decide where i= t ought to go, and sometimes it will be wasted and=0A> > sometimes it will = not. And any scheme is going to be imperfect.=0A> There=0A> > wil be patron= s with exercrable taste who only want to be=0A> flattered,=0A> > corporatio= ns with no taste at all which only want to be flattered,=0A> and=0A> > gove= rnments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic boxes.=0A> But=0A> > = in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among the evils on=0A> offer,= =0A> > because there is actually in practice more chance of a=0A> disintere= sted=0A> > outcome. In Australia, it is arms length funding with a process= =0A> of=0A> > peer review. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect,= as=0A> I=0A> > said, but as a system it produces a lot of very high qualit= y art=0A> that=0A> > otherwise would be unsustainable.=0A> > =0A> > A=0A> >= =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin=0A> wrote:=0A> > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement= : "the opposite may be=0A> true." The market sometimes recognizes talent, s= ometimes not. It is=0A> an imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, tho= ugh, is allow for=0A> a wide variety of options. The government does not gi= ve you options.=0A> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothin= g. Don't like=0A> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government= -brand car?=0A> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's t= he rub,=0A> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be=0A> govern= ment-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot=0A> support everyo= ne who says they are an artist. There must be someone=0A> deciding who gets= supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A> think so. Me? Don't t= hink so. This year it may be someone with whom=0A> you agree; next year it = may be someone with whom you never agree. Or=0A> should there be a democrat= ic vote? Do you really want art by=0A> democratic vote? How many here write= =0A> anything a=0A> > > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a= committee?=0A> Similar problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, i= t has the=0A> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be dete= rmined?=0A> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would b= e to=0A> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they a= re=0A> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they= =0A> are not successful, how does the government determine who to give=0A> = funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what=0A> preve= nts us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough=0A> really bad ar= t to get the funding just so they don't have to go get=0A> a "real" job? I = think about all these things and look at the history=0A> of government supp= ort for the arts and cannot come to any other=0A> conclusion that governmen= t funding for the arts is bad for the=0A> arts.=0A> > >=0A> > > Troy Campli= n=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > ________________________________=0A> > > = From: Paul Nelson =0A> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO= ...EDU=0A> > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A> > > Subject: R= e: The Market recognizes talent!=0A> > >=0A> > > From: Troy Camplin =0A> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > > Sent: Fri= day, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> > > Subject: Re: The Market recognize= s talent!=0A> > >=0A> > > One=0A> > > can always point to people who in you= r opinion (and, with this=0A> list,=0A> > > mine) are at best embarrassing.= However, one can also point to=0A> the fact=0A> > > that Picasso, Monet, a= nd Jasper Johns were all made wealthy=0A> during=0A> > > their lifetimes. I= may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not=0A> going=0A> > > to deprive= anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If=0A> you want=0A> > > t= o try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and=0A> good --= =0A> > > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating=0A> pe= ople in=0A> > > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you peop= le=0A> have to=0A> > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw= up a few=0A> straw men=0A> > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a = "point."=0A> > >=0A> > > Troy Camplin=0A> > >=0A> > > I prefer the phrase "= People of Straw" but I don't use the market=0A> as any=0A> > > guide to qua= lity in the arts.. In fact, the opposite may be=0A> true, but=0A> > > when = you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh?=0A> > > Paul E. Nelson= =0A> > >=0A> > > Global Voices Radio=0A> > > SPLAB!=0A> > > American Senten= ces=0A> > > Organic Poetry=0A> > > Poetry Postcard Blog=0A> > >=0A> > > Ila= lqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A> > >=0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > > = The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidel= ines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> = > >=0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > > The Poetics List is moderat= ed & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> = http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> > >=0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A= > > --=0A> > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au=0A> > Blog: http= ://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A> > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com= =0A> > =0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is modera= ted & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A>= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check= =0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcom= e.html=0A> =0A> =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is mo= derated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:= =0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> =0A> =0A> -- =0A> No v= irus found in this incoming message.=0A> Checked by AVG. =0A> Version: 7.5.= 557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date:=0A> 3/1/2009 5:46 PM=0A= > =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderat= ed & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:25:01 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I get my history from a wide range of writers. I tend not to believe in uto= pian visions, though -- including those that believe government is the savi= or of anybody. Governments concentrate power, and power tends to corrupt. = =0A=0AI don't know what history you have been reading, but most history I h= ave read has been written by neo-Marxists. That, at least, has been the dom= inant ideology among historians for a while. They and many others have a st= range habit of complaining incessantly about what governments do, and then = propose as a solution giving governments more power. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ryan Daley =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 9:17= :37 AM=0ASubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A=0ADear Troy,=0A=0A"H= Istory shows the people in government are far, far, far more corrupt, and= =0Athat government is far more corrupting, than are those who participate i= n=0Athe free market."=0A=0AOh come now: history is written by free market w= onks! I'm glad to see you're=0Aa patron of great grammar and fine language = skills, but for the love of G-d,=0Awhy are you buying into this propaganda?= What history books are you reading?=0A=0A=0AWhere are you getting your inf= ormation from?=0A=0A-Ryan=0A=0AOn Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Troy Camplin= wrote:=0A=0A> HIstory shows the people in governme= nt are far, far, far more corrupt, and=0A> that government is far more corr= upting, than are those who participate in=0A> the free market, or than the = free market is.=0A>=0A> I don't deny the importance of patronage. We need a= gift market as well. A=0A> free gift market is not inconsistent with the m= arket economy. In fact, there=0A> is a long history of very wealthy capital= ists who were incredibly generous=0A> with their largesse. Which is to be c= ompared with government leaders, who=0A> are incredibly generous with your = largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral=0A> -- to be generous with other= people's money. So patronage is important. I=0A> think it should come abou= t voluntarily. You think it is perfectly acceptable=0A> to take money by fo= rce (try not to pay your taxes and see if it isn't taken=0A> by force). Tha= t is where we disagree. In fact, I think patronage is so=0A> important, I h= ave started a nonprofit organization to provide patronage for=0A> the arts.= We won't take money form the government, though, as I find taking=0A> mone= y from the government to be unethical. We will take voluntary donations=0A>= from people so that we can one day patronize artists, writers,=0A> etc. S= o be careful what you're accusing people of.=0A>=0A> There is no such thing= as a disinterested outcome when it comes to people.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Mark Weiss =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday,= February 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talen= t!=0A>=0A> Brava, Alison.=0A>=0A> At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote:=0A> > I= live in a country where there is government subsidy for the arts. It=0A> >= is by no means a bad thing. It is vastly prefereble for, say, poetry=0A> >= publishers to be subsidised to publish poetry books than the system=0A> > = you have in the US, where publishers run competitions charging=0A> > appell= ants to enter so they can continue to publish books, which=0A> > creates a= competition culture that is, to my mind, more corrupting by=0A> > far. You= r deep study of history, Troy, will have shown you that while=0A> > some ar= t can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the stuff we=0A> > now co= nsider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of=0A> > patronage. M= oney has to come from somewhere; whether it's a wealthy=0A> > patron or a g= overnment sponsored organisation, and someone has to=0A> > decide where it = ought to go, and sometimes it will be wasted and=0A> > sometimes it will no= t. And any scheme is going to be imperfect. There=0A> > wil be patrons with= exercrable taste who only want to be flattered,=0A> > corporations with no= taste at all which only want to be flattered, and=0A> > governments who on= ly want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic boxes. But=0A> > in a democracy, I'= d rather choose the latter among the evils on offer,=0A> > because there is= actually in practice more chance of a disinterested=0A> > outcome. In Aust= ralia, it is arms length funding with a process of=0A> > peer review. It's = about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, as I=0A> > said, but as a syste= m it produces a lot of very high quality art that=0A> > otherwise would be = unsustainable.=0A> >=0A> > A=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 a= t 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin =0A> wrote:=0A> > > Now the= re's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." The=0A> market= sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an imperfect=0A> arbiter= of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a wide variety of=0A> opti= ons. The government does not give you options. It is a monopoly. You get=0A= > what they give you, or nothing. Don't like government-brand corn? Too bad= ..=0A> Don't like the government-brand car? Too bad. Don't like government-b= rand=0A> art? AH, but there's the rub, isn't it? Nobody here wants to belie= ve there=0A> will be government-brand art. Except that the government simpl= y cannot=0A> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be so= meone deciding=0A> who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don'= t think so. Me?=0A> Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom y= ou agree; next year=0A> it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or sho= uld there be a democratic=0A> vote? Do you really want art by democratic vo= te? How many here write=0A> anything a=0A> > > democratic majority would = want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar=0A> problems arise, just on a sm= aller scale. In fact, it has the problems of=0A> both situations. How, then= , is funding to be determined? How much funding?=0A> To whom will funding g= o? The safe bet would be to give it to those who are=0A> already successful= -- but then, if they are already successful, why do they=0A> need governme= nt funding? And if they are not successful, how does the=0A> government det= ermine who to give funding to, who to support? Based on=0A> production? Wel= l, then, what prevents us from having cheaters, who will=0A> produce just e= nough really bad art to get the funding just so they don't=0A> have to go g= et a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the=0A> history= of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other=0A> conclu= sion that government funding for the arts is bad for the arts.=0A> > >=0A> = > > Troy Camplin=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > >=0A> > > __________________________= ______=0A> > > From: Paul Nelson =0A> > > To: POETICS@L= ISTSERV.BUFFALO..EDU=0A> > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A>= > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A> > >=0A> > > From: Troy = Camplin =0A> > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A= > > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> > > Subject: Re: The M= arket recognizes talent!=0A> > >=0A> > > One=0A> > > can always point to pe= ople who in your opinion (and, with this list,=0A> > > mine) are at best em= barrassing. However, one can also point to the fact=0A> > > that Picasso, M= onet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during=0A> > > their lifetimes= .. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not going=0A> > > to deprive = anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you want=0A> > > to try= to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good --=0A> > > bu= t there's no evidence the government is good at educating people in=0A> > >= math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have to=0A> = > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw men= =0A> > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point."=0A> > >=0A> > = > Troy Camplin=0A> > >=0A> > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I = don't use the market as any=0A> > > guide to quality in the arts.. In fact,= the opposite may be true, but=0A> > > when you're a fundamentalist, you sa= y funny things, eh?=0A> > > Paul E. Nelson=0A> > >=0A> > > Global Voices Ra= dio=0A> > > SPLAB!=0A> > > American Sentences=0A> > > Organic Poetry=0A> > = > Poetry Postcard Blog=0A> > >=0A> > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A> > >=0A> = > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > > The Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc= ..buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> > >=0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=0A> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Chec= k=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.h= tml=0A> > >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > --=0A> > Editor, Masthead: http://www.= masthead.net.au=0A> > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com=0A> > Home pag= e: http://www.alisoncroggon.com=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> gu= idelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>= =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does = not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buf= falo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> T= he Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= =0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A= =0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not a= ccept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/= poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:33:03 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in agreement = with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm looking for in high = art. What you missed was what came after the comma. The market also allows = for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good and what is no= t good. The same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would be= terribly disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he went to vi= sit. There is a difference between what people like in a general sort of wa= y and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. My wife, for exampl= e, thinks that opera is literally the best way to spend an evening. But she= also listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my posting, you will note= that I differentiate between what the market does in allowing for niches a= nd true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the majority. In that case, = one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is precisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting the arts.= =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John= Cunningham =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0A= Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker playin= g=0Adogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic merit"!= =0AThere are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If it h= ad=0Abeen allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the= =0AEmancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of legislati= on=0Aever and popular support was vastly against it.=0AJohn Herbert Cunning= ham=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailt= o:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of Troy Camplin=0ASent: March-0= 1-09 2:21 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy= =0A=0AFunny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The mark= et is=0Ain fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to t= he horror=0Aof the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to h= ave access to=0Aworks that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we wo= uld only listen=0Ato Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled= arts, we would=0Aonly listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm= guessing something=0Aalong the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the f= ree market can I listen=0Ato Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally= , one of the reasons why I=0Aset up the Emerson Institute was to truly demo= cratize patronage of the arts=0A-- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equali= ty under the law, yes;=0Acollectivist egalitarianism, no. =0A=0ATroy Campli= n=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Marcus Bales =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, Febru= ary 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AThe problem with = Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free market=0Ais a good=0Aj= udge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an=0Auntena= ble position:=0Ahe's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than oth= ers, and that=0Asome people=0Acan tell which ones those poems are -- it's a= n elitist position, one that=0Awill get him in a=0Alot of trouble if he's n= ot careful, and get him lumped in with Troy as an=0Aequality-hater.=0ABe ca= reful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than others,=0Ao= r some=0Apoets better than others, without getting accused of elitism!=0A= =0AYou're not an elitist, are you, Paul?=0A=0AMarcus=0A=0A=0AOn 26 Feb 2009= at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote:=0A=0ADate sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:4= 0:55 -0800=0ASend reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)"=0A=0AFrom: Paul Nelson =0A= Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.= BUFFALO.EDU=0A=0A> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a fa= lse dich=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand= on a false=0A> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNME= NT. I was=0A> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good= judge=0A> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have= =0A> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner.=0A>=0A> What is los= t in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can=0A> actually get it ba= ck to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of=0A> the gift economy.=0A>= =0A> from Wikipedia:=0A>=0A>=0A> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in wh= ich goods and services are=0A> given without any explicit agreement for imm= ediate or future quid=0A> pro quo.=0A> Ideally simultaneous or recurring gi= ving serves to circulate and=0A> redistribute valuables within a community.= This can be considered=0A> a=0A> form of reciprocal altruism.=0A> The conc= ept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned=0A> economy or a mark= et or barter economy.=0A> In a planned economy, goods and services are dist= ributed by=0A> explicit=0A> command and control rather than informal custom= ; in barter or=0A> market=0A> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exch= ange of money or some=0A> other commodity - is established before the trans= action takes=0A> place.=0A>=0A> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in = years past) had a=0A> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and= Neruda as=0A> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have s= ocial=0A> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without=0A> = becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours.=0A>=0A> I'd like nothing more th= an a drastic reduction in Federal Spending,=0A> starting with the outlays f= or militarism:=0A>=0A>=0A> Again Wiki:=0A>=0A>=0A> As of 2009, the United S= tates government is spending about $1=0A> trillion annually on defense-rela= ted purposes.=0A>=0A> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses = in underserved=0A> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies = on a=0A> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes mu= ch=0A> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and= =0A> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs=0A>= FREE MARKET, little light is generated.=0A>=0A> Charles Olson, William Car= los Williams and others had some inkling=0A> about the importance of the lo= cal, hence The Maximus Poems and=0A> Paterson. This, to me, is the link bet= ween the discusson of Free=0A> Markets vs Government intervention and POETI= CS is, in theory anyway,=0A> the mission of this listserv. May it be so.=0A= >=0A>=0A> Paul=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> = SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog= =0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> __________= ______________________=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> T= o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:2= 7 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> Now there's a f= undamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true."=0A> The market sometim= es recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an=0A> imperfect arbiter of tast= e. What it does do, though, is allow for a=0A> wide variety of options. The= government does not give you options.=0A> It is a monopoly. You get what t= hey give you, or nothing. Don't like=0A> government-brand corn? Too bad. Do= n't like the government-brand car?=0A> Too bad. Don't like government-brand= art? AH, but there's the rub,=0A> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe t= here will be=0A> government-brand art. Except that the government simply ca= nnot=0A> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someon= e=0A> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A= > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom=0A> y= ou agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or=0A> sho= uld there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by=0A> democratic vo= te? How many here write anything a=0A> democratic majority would want to re= ad? Perhaps a committee? Similar=0A> problems arise, just on a smaller scal= e. In fact, it has the=0A> problems of both situations. How, then, is fundi= ng to be determined?=0A> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The saf= e bet would be to=0A> give it to those who are already successful -- but th= en, if they are=0A> already successful, why do they need government funding= ? And if they=0A> are not successful, how does the government determine who= to give=0A> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, w= hat=0A> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough=0A> = really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get=0A> a "= real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history=0A> of go= vernment support for the arts and cannot come to any other=0A> conclusion t= hat government funding for the arts is bad for the=0A> arts.=0A>=0A> Troy C= amplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Paul Nels= on =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Sund= ay, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes tal= ent!=0A>=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LIS= TSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> Subjec= t: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> One=0A> can always point to pe= ople who in your opinion (and, with this=0A> list,=0A> mine) are at best em= barrassing. However, one can also point to the=0A> fact=0A> that Picasso, M= onet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during=0A> their lifetimes. I = may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not=0A> going=0A> to deprive anyo= ne of her, either, if that's what they like. If you=0A> want=0A> to try to = educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good=0A> --=0A> but th= ere's no evidence the government is good at educating people=0A> in=0A> mat= h and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have=0A> to=0A> = purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw=0A> men= =0A> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point."=0A>=0A> Troy Campl= in=0A>=0A> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market= as=0A> any=0A> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be = true,=0A> but=0A> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh?= =0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sen= tences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.7= 35.6328=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moder= ated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A= > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check= =0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcom= e.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is mo= derated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:= =0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> No viru= s found in this incoming message.=0A> Checked by AVG.=0A> Version: 7.5.557 = / Virus Database: 270.11.3 - Release Date:=0A> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM=0A>=0A=0A= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo= ..edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poeti= cs List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/= unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts= .. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= ..html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 15:35:02 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Comments: To: George Bowering In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ah -- my bad. I meant to say that markets come before governments, not after. Marcus On 2 Mar 2009 at 11:49, George Bowering wrote: Copies to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts Date sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:49:24 -0800 To: marcus@designerglass.com > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 10:26 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > > > Just so -- because you know jerking it to the left will put you in > > a ditch. We're agreed on that. > > > > But don't you see that once we're agreed on that it vitiates the > > whole of postmodernist relativism? It is simply not the case that > > everything is the same as everything else; not the case that any > > one thing is as valuable as any other thing; not the case that one > > effort is just as valuable as a different effort; not the case > that > > anything is art that anyone says is art? > > Of course I agree with that. > I just don't see how the market can come before governments > ]and also not before governments. > > gb > > > > > Marcus > > > > > > On 2 Mar 2009 at 9:48, George Bowering wrote: > > > > Copies to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > > > > From: George Bowering > > Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > > Date sent: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:48:21 -0800 > > To: marcus@designerglass.com > > > > > > > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:07 AM, marcus@designerglass.com wrote: > > > > > > > > On Feb 28, 2009, at 4:32 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > > > Second, the market also comes before governments, not > > > before. > > > > > > > > > On 28 Feb 2009 at 17:48, George Bowering wrote: > > > > > Ah, there's the incisive thinking we have learned to expect > from > > > the > > > > > right. > > > > > > > > I'm a liberal, not on "the right". > > > > > > > > There is a value to understanding how things work even for > > > liberals. > > > > > > > > However postmodern or leftist you may be, I'll bet you still > go > > > the > > > > doctor when you're sick; I'll bet you don't doubt whether > jerking > > > > the steering wheel to the side will put you in a ditch; > > > > > > Ah, but to parallel what you say above, > > > > > > I might jerk it to the left but not to the left. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > George Henry Bowering > > > Once saw Alexis Smith plain. > > > > > > > > > > > > George B. > Author of his own misfortunes. > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:41:36 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You are correct to a certain extent. But the market also makes things incre= asingly cheaper, so that the poor of today have a higher standard of living= than the middle class of a hundred years ago and the rich of rich of three= hundred years ago. No telling how long that will last in the near future f= or a while since, as you point out, we seem to be moving inexorably towards= depression. If you want to know what if any of Obama's ideas are going to = get us out of the economy, watch what the stock market does in response. Ac= tions they deem harmful to the economy results in the market going down; ac= tions they deem helpful to the economy results in the market going up (this= is the case only when the government is actively doing things which affect= the economy, and not during regular times). The stock market has dropped o= ver 12% since Obama became President, mostly during the times when he has f= ought for the "stimulus" and "bailout" money. I'm a little less pessimistic that the stimulus law will harm the economy in the immediate f= uture since there is so little in there for this year (which seems odd, sin= ce a stimulus should have everything in it for the year of the recession), = though the truly insane deficits he has racked up in the first month of off= ice will probably (with the rest of the debt we have accumulated) destroy t= he economy sometime in the future. These kinds of deficits only move doomsd= ay up considerably.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________________= ______=0AFrom: Murat Nemet-Nejat =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV= ..BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:48:06 AM=0ASubject: Re: The Ma= rket recognizes talent!=0A=0ATroy,=0A=0AThe market consists of people who c= an afford (affordability must come along=0Awith willingness) to buy things.= In other words, the market does not=0Anecessarily have to include the poor= in its "benevolent," "natural" loop.=0AThis is something to keep in mind a= s our country, and the world, seem to be=0Amoving inexorably towards depres= sion.=0A=0ACiao,=0A=0AMurat=0A=0A=0AOn Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Troy Ca= mplin wrote:=0A=0A> You are mistaking "the market" = for "democracy." You are correct to make a=0A> distinction between the mark= et and individuals. One thing that the market=0A> does allow is the creatio= n of niches. Mass production is not identical with=0A> the market, though i= t can be a feature of it. If there is enough people who=0A> want something,= someone will come along to supply it. That is the main=0A> feature of the = market. Certainly with copy prices so low, and the existence=0A> of the int= ernet, and now Kindle, the availability of art of all sorts have=0A> blosso= med. I see the development of things such as the Kindle -- a product=0A> of= the market -- as a way for many more people to be able to sell their=0A> l= iterary works, since almost all costs have been eliminated for publishers.= =0A> And as the market allows for the creation of more and more such techno= logy,=0A> it's going to be easier and easier for writers to make their work= s available=0A> for sale. We are at the cusp of another information boom, w= hich will=0A> make literary works far more available -- and the government= far less=0A> necessary.=0A>=0A> The market produces a wide variety of thin= gs, including kitsch -- but most=0A> certainly kitsch is not the only thing= it produces. If you truly believe it=0A> is, then you have chosen to blind= yourself to much of reality, I'm afraid.=0A> Or perhaps you ought to get o= ut of Canada more often.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> _____________= ___________________=0A> From: cris costa =0A> To: POETIC= S@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:59:13 AM=0A> = Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> It's good to see someone= south of the boarder standing up for government=0A> funding in Canadian ar= ts. Thanks Francois. To add to that, it is the=0A> government funding allow= s all the talented writers (particularly the ones=0A> mentioned below) to c= reate their work and distribute it, because although=0A> their work is bril= liant, it's not easily digestible (in terms of what the=0A> market requires= for consumption), and therefore opposed to the principles=0A> that govern = "the market".=0A>=0A> However, a major problem that I noticed from the star= t of this debate is=0A> that it is taking for granted (in life, in this con= versation) that "the=0A> market" indeed has skills of discernment. The mark= et cannot recognize=0A> anything. It's not a person, nor does it have eyes,= or thoughts, or=0A> feelings. Though "the market" may require humans to ex= ist or to perpetuate=0A> itself, human "taste" (as relative and arbitrary a= s that may be) plays a=0A> minuscule role in determining what is produced b= y the market. In order for=0A> the market to operate as it does, it require= s "efficiency" (translate: cheap=0A> products, made quickly, sold for a lot= of money). Human desire comes into=0A> play at one point or another, but p= sychoanalysts and cultural theorists=0A> across the board have demonstrated= time and again that desire is just as=0A> easily appeased with simulation = and simulacra as it is with the "authentic"=0A> thing.=0A>=0A> Therefore, t= he market generates "schlock and kitsch" (as the big ol' F.J.=0A> puts it) = in order to sustain itself. The subject who is fully immersed in=0A> the ma= rket--that is the ideal market-subject who can supposedly discern--is=0A> e= qually satisfied with kitsch as it is with anything else.=0A>=0A> Perhaps y= ou're not. And I think, neither are most people on this listserv.=0A> Which= is the point I'm making.=0A>=0A> So three cheers for government funding fo= r the arts!=0A>=0A> -c.=0A>=0A>=0A> > Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:32:53 -0500= =0A> > From: neuroticme@YAHOO.COM=0A> > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes = talent!=0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> >=0A> > Troy,=0A> >=0A> = > As I read your responses to George Bowering, I am somewhat struck by=0A> = their=0A> > ignorance.. First of all, George Bowering probably receives or = has=0A> received=0A> > grants from the Canada Council of the Arts or his pr= ovince's art=0A> > administration. Secondly, the Canadian government has pr= ovides much more=0A> > funding for its artists than the free(er) market Uni= ted States and has=0A> > allowed its literature to be much more vibrant and= interesting than the=0A> vast=0A> > majority of American poetry (some exam= ples of fine Canadian poets: Erin=0A> > Mour=E9, Nicole Broussard, Aaron Pe= ck, angela rawlings, Jordan Scott, ...).=0A> > The same can be said of many= Western European countries where the=0A> government=0A> > provides subsidi= es for its writers and artists.=0A> >=0A> > Best,=0A> >=0A> > fran=E7ois lu= ong=0A> >=0A> > PS: I am not Canadian or a resident of Canada.=0A> >=0A> > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not = accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo= ..edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> _________________________________________= ________________________=0A> Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its fi= nest.=0A> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.a= spx=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & do= es not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.= buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A= =0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not a= ccept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/= poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:50:41 -0800 Reply-To: lmrussell04@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lauren Russell Subject: seeking cat-friendly roommate, Brooklyn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, My cat Neruda and I need a roommate for a large two-bedroom apartment in Flatbush. The room is enormous, with lots of light, a courtyard view, and a large shared living room and kitchen.=A0 It's on the fifth floor of an elevator building, two and a half blocks from the Church Street 2/5 stop and not too far from the Q and B trains has well.=A0 The room is $750, plus half of utilities.=A0 Available anytime after March 6th.=A0 Plea= se contact me if interested. Thanks, Lauren=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:06:35 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <49ABC71B.15835.6C48B8@marcus.designerglass.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcus, I think some things are better than others. Most people do; and then they have arguments about it. It's called "culture". xA On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 3:46 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >> At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, Allison Croggon wrote: >> > ... some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the stuff >> we >> >now consider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of >> >patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether it's a >> wealthy >> >patron or a government sponsored organisation, and someone has to >> >decide where it ought to go ... > > Wait a minute, now! What's this? "most valuable"? Where does this come from? On > what grounds is some art "most valuable" while other art is not "most valuable"? How > do you measure merit in the arts, Allison? How do you determine what art is "most > valuable"? > > Marcus > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:19:02 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Allegrezza Subject: Series A this Wed. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please come to Series A this Wednesday for another great literary reading event. March 4, 7:00-8:00 p.m. Jonathan Messinger Joshua Adams The reading will be held at the Hyde Park Art Center. 5020 S. Cornell Avenue, Chicago, IL BYOB. For more information, see http://www.moriapoetry.com/seriesa.html Bill Allegrezza ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:23:23 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: calling Chris Funkhouser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poeticists, Does anyone have a working email address for Chris Funkhouser ? the 'nijit.edu' address is bouncing. Please contact me on the back channel - P.Brown62@gmail.com Thanks very much, Pam -- ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 17:43:50 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: Re: arts funding in oz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alison, > Date: =A0 =A0Sun, 1 Mar 2009 15:17:39 +1100 > From: =A0 =A0Alison Croggon > Subject: Re: arts funding in oz > > Hi Pam > >> and at the end of the arm there is the hand that you should probably >> have shaken a few times in order to land a writing grant >> >> so often, it comes down to who you know =A0- let me lie in the arms of a >> peer who likes my poems > > That's what the right wing columnists claim, but from where I'm > looking the truth is a lot more complex than that. Oh well, I haven't read the right wing columnists. And I have no idea of 'the truth' about arts funding, just my observations & experiences since OzCo was set up in the early 70s But it could be beneficial if the OzCo literature board publicised the names of the 'peers' for each round of grants before anyone applies. Then you needn't put the effort into arguing 'a coherent' or any other kind of application if you were forewarned who was to be part of the decision making. (Who would apply to their own detractors - peers or not?) That might also cut the number of applicants - making for a more cheerful bureaucracy. Other useful tactics would be to introduce means testing of applicants and excluding recent financially- lucrative-prize-winners from applying in the year of the prize. It's looked to me over the decades that you win a prize then immediately go for a grant and get it. Do I sound like a socialist ? (and, yes, I have heard of Joseph Stalin) Whatever happened to proper seed money - I reckon the grant system, as well-meaning as it was and says it is - makes being awarded a grant look more like winning a prize than anything else these days, as the years of celebrity and spectacle keep rolling along. >I've dealt with > funding bodies from several sides of the fence (critic, applicant, > peer review person) in several art forms (music, literature, theatre). > What counts more than "who you know" - and I'm not saying this is > necessarily a good thing - is being able to argue a coherent > application. It's surprising how few writers manage to do this, and > yet one would think it would be obvious that in approaching a > bureaucracy, what needs to be assuaged is the bureaucratic > necessities. And in a way, that's fair enough: render unto Caesar what > is Caesar's. So where are the ghost-grant-application-writers ? A small business idea for retired arts admin functionaries ? > The Australian Council has a pretty transparent process: those who > want to know about how decisions were made can find out, decisions can > be questioned and there are strict rules about conflict of interest in > panel discussions that are - from what I've seen - rigorously > observed. >When I look at the "stimulus spending" being thrown around > these days my head spins - the arts have to account for every penny, > and it's so jealously scrutinised. That seems correct for public > money, but then private industry gets millions of dollars and aside > from a few dissenting voices, everybody's for it. Hmmm. Businesses have to account too - there is quarterly PAYG and company tax etc and welfare agencies and other government-funded bodies like schools and hospitals...all have to account. It's our money. It's tax. It's not only the poor old arts sector that has to 'account for every penny' (I wanted desperately to say 'yartz sector' just then but I don't want to be demoralised by Les Patterson ever again ! I can't take much more of him !) > Fwiw, I've spent some time looking at US and UK funding models, and I > think the Australian system looks pretty good in comparison (although > it also looks pretty poor in relation to some imaginative European > models): it's pretty fair, all things considered, and the major > problem it faces is actually lack of money. Good oh - I'll take your word for it. Maybe some different methods of distribution of the monies the OzCo literature board does receive would be an improvement. The seed money thing again - spread it around. For instance - have many more smaller amounts of money for individual writers rather than those whoppers of fellowships (although I could certainly find ways to spend a fellowship over a year or two - quel luxe) >There are big caveats: > it's been pretty disastrous for the film industry, mainly I guess > because films require so much money comapred to other artforms; the > most interesting films being made these days are pirate films done on > privately raised and miniscule budgets and filmed on HDD by people who > don't get paid anything. On the other hand, the reason we have such a > lively and interesting theatre culture is that it's funded, > independent theatre especially; the main stage theatre companies get > very little public funding, when considered as a percentage of their > income, and so tend to operate more like commercial theatres. > > Like I said, it's complex. I still think it's better to have public > funding than not, or at least, Agreed. (see - I'm left of socialism, actually) >I can't think of a better way of making > up the deficit of making serious art. Funny art should get some money too, no ? >And if you want unscrutinised > funding predicated on "who you know", then private patronage is the > absolute model. No no, I don't - but, but, - we don't have much of that in Oz, do we ? Is that why I kept that day job for so long? Sob, is it because I don't know anybody who's anybody in private patronage? >Myself, I usually feel about funding bodies like the > scriptwriters in Barton Fink do about producers: "He's taking an > interest, Barton! It's a _disaster_!" Bureaucrats, being the least > interested, are probably the least damaging for artists to deal with. But, Alison, in the 'arms-length', 'transparent' peer system you report, Bureaucrats R Us. Bye for now, Pam, Going off to suck more eggs ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 23:54:07 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SELAVY OH and ALAN DOJOJI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed SELAVY OH and ALAN DOJOJI have created a new work at the Odyssey site Second Life with Selavy Oh which may or may not be up for a while, please have a look when you can. The images are from the mess-up on Odyssey, the rollback and Sugar Seville's experimentation with land texture, the new Odyssey piece, other materials - http://www.alansondheim.org/ newmess pngs and finalhours png (new ones) love these - To access the Odyssey site - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 05:18:56 -0800 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: If you missed them, you can still ... Comments: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Listen in and watch recent readers from the Stain of Poetry: A Reading Series: ** Jason Gray, Tony Mancus, Deborah Poe, Jessica Reed, Ric Royer, and Mario Susko ** And more @ http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/video/ Enjoy, Amy & Ana http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/ _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 01:33:30 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jesse Glass Subject: Ekleksographia #1 Finished--Finally! Hank Lazer Reviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lazer reviews Lisa Jarnot, Leonard Schwartz, and others. http://ekleksographia.ahadadabooks.com/ Amy King, T.A. Noonan, Jen Karmin, Vivian Shipley are on our list of future curators. Jess ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:00:39 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: cris costa Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <359401.17271.qm@web46216.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy=2C well=2C looks like you sure pegged me.=20 ... despite that there's nothing in my response which remotely suggests tha= t I have in some way=2C shape or form "confused" the market with democracy.= Not to mention that I'm not the one who titled this thread "the Market rec= ognizes talent!" Furthermore=2C your insulting (and uncalled for) attack on my critical capa= cities (that is=2C according to you=2C I am "blinded" and cannot see "reali= ty=2C" and that I am also sheltered=2C that I need to "get out of Canada") = says much more about you than it says about me. In fact=2C I never once dir= ectly criticized you=2C nor was I directly addressing to you (as many other= s have). Instead=2C I commented on the discussion in general and suggested = that we look at this from another stand-point.=20 Of course=2C you would be unable to see this because=2C based on your ludic= rous attack alone (if not other things--i.e. the debate on the market and l= it.=2C or your overall stance on government involvement)=2C you are an indo= ctrinated neoliberal drone.=20 Take Care=2C Cris Costa > Date: Sun=2C 1 Mar 2009 12:33:05 -0800 > From: emersoninst@YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > You are mistaking "the market" for "democracy." You are correct to make a= distinction between the market and individuals. One thing that the market = does allow is the creation of niches. Mass production is not identical with= the market=2C though it can be a feature of it. If there is enough people = who want something=2C someone will come along to supply it. That is the mai= n feature of the market. Certainly with copy prices so low=2C and the exist= ence of the internet=2C and now Kindle=2C the availability of art of all so= rts have blossomed. I see the development of things such as the Kindle -- a= product of the market -- as a way for many more people to be able to sell = their literary works=2C since almost all costs have been eliminated for pub= lishers. And as the market allows for the creation of more and more such te= chnology=2C it's going to be easier and easier for writers to make their wo= rks available for sale. We are at the cusp of another information boom=2C w= hich will > make literary works far more available -- and the government far less ne= cessary.=20 >=20 > The market produces a wide variety of things=2C including kitsch -- but m= ost certainly kitsch is not the only thing it produces. If you truly believ= e it is=2C then you have chosen to blind yourself to much of reality=2C I'm= afraid. Or perhaps you ought to get out of Canada more often. >=20 > Troy Camplin >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ > From: cris costa > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday=2C February 27=2C 2009 11:59:13 AM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >=20 > It's good to see someone south of the boarder standing up for government = funding in Canadian arts. Thanks Francois. To add to that=2C it is the gove= rnment funding allows all the talented writers (particularly the ones menti= oned below) to create their work and distribute it=2C because although thei= r work is brilliant=2C it's not easily digestible (in terms of what the mar= ket requires for consumption)=2C and therefore opposed to the principles th= at govern "the market". >=20 > However=2C a major problem that I noticed from the start of this debate i= s that it is taking for granted (in life=2C in this conversation) that "the= market" indeed has skills of discernment. The market cannot recognize anyt= hing. It's not a person=2C nor does it have eyes=2C or thoughts=2C or feeli= ngs. Though "the market" may require humans to exist or to perpetuate itsel= f=2C human "taste" (as relative and arbitrary as that may be) plays a minus= cule role in determining what is produced by the market. In order for the m= arket to operate as it does=2C it requires "efficiency" (translate: cheap p= roducts=2C made quickly=2C sold for a lot of money). Human desire comes int= o play at one point or another=2C but psychoanalysts and cultural theorists= across the board have demonstrated time and again that desire is just as e= asily appeased with simulation and simulacra as it is with the "authentic" = thing.=20 >=20 > Therefore=2C the market generates "schlock and kitsch" (as the big ol' F.= J. puts it) in order to sustain itself. The subject who is fully immersed i= n the market--that is the ideal market-subject who can supposedly discern--= is equally satisfied with kitsch as it is with anything else.=20 >=20 > Perhaps you're not. And I think=2C neither are most people on this listse= rv. Which is the point I'm making. >=20 > So three cheers for government funding for the arts!=20 >=20 > -c.=20 >=20 >=20 > > Date: Fri=2C 27 Feb 2009 02:32:53 -0500 > > From: neuroticme@YAHOO.COM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >=20 > > Troy=2C > >=20 > > As I read your responses to George Bowering=2C I am somewhat struck by = their > > ignorance.. First of all=2C George Bowering probably receives or has re= ceived > > grants from the Canada Council of the Arts or his province's art > > administration. Secondly=2C the Canadian government has provides much m= ore > > funding for its artists than the free(er) market United States and has > > allowed its literature to be much more vibrant and interesting than the= vast > > majority of American poetry (some examples of fine Canadian poets: Erin > > Mour=E9=2C Nicole Broussard=2C Aaron Peck=2C angela rawlings=2C Jordan = Scott=2C ...). > > The same can be said of many Western European countries where the gover= nment > > provides subsidies for its writers and artists. > >=20 > > Best=2C > >=20 > > fran=E7ois luong > >=20 > > PS: I am not Canadian or a resident of Canada. > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidel= ines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Share photos with friends on Windows Live Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9650734= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cassandra Laity Subject: H.D. Books in Paperback Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hello all, my Cambridge H.D. book, _H.D. and the Victorian Fin de Siecle_ (1996, CUP) = just came out in paperback for 32.00 at Amazon.=20 I know that a lot of others from CUP also came out in paperback in the = last few yrs. Hope others will take this opportunity to announce it. = (Those Cambridge books are 90.00 or more usually).=20 Best, Cassandra=20 Cassandra Laity=20 Associate Professor Co-Editor Modernism/Modernity=20 Drew University=20 Madison, NJ 07940 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:29:39 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetics List Subject: Poetics List Welcome Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reminder -- The list editors reserve the right to decide what messages will be approved for posting to this list. 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This, of course, includes racist, sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or criticism of the person. http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:39:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Belladonna Commemorative Series--Hejinian/Scappettone reading tonight--subscribe Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Tonight: Launch for The Belladonna Elders Series #5 featuring Jennifer Scappettone, Lyn Hejinian, and Etel Adnan With Lyn Hejinian, Stacy Szymaszek, and Jennifer Scappettone Tuesday, March 3, 2009 Doors at 7:00 p.m.; Reading at 7:30 p.m. Dixon Place: 161 Christie Street, New York Admission: $6 Jennifer Scappettone is the author of From Dame Quickly (Litmus Press, 2009), and of several chapbooks: Beauty [Is the New Absurdity] (dus/ie kollectiv, 2007), Err-Residence (Bronze Skull, 2007), and Ode oggettuale, a bilingual 'poemetto' translated into Italian in conversation with Marco Giovenale (La Camera Verde, 2008). She guest-edited the feature section of Aufgabe 7, devoted to contemporary Italian "poetry of research," and is working on a prose manuscript whose working title is "This Amphibious City"= : Venice and the Digressive Invention of the Modern. The work in the Belladonna book is drawn from an evolving project=8Ban archaeology of the landfill and opera of pop-ups=8Bcalled Exit 43. She teaches at the University of Chicago. Lyn Hejinian is a poet, essayist, and translator. Her most recent published book of poetry is Saga / Circus (2008). A collection of collaborations written with Jack Collom; Situations, Sings, also came out in 2008. Other books include A Border Comedy (Granary Books, 2001), Slowly and The Beginne= r (both published by Tuumba Press, 2002), and The Fatalist (Omnidawn, 2003). The University of California Press published a collection of her essays entitled The Language of Inquiry in 2000. Hejinian is also actively involve= d in collaboratively written works, the most recent examples of which include a major collection of poems by Hejinian and Jack Collom titled Situations, Sings (Adventures in Poetry, 2008). Translations of her work have been published in Denmark, France, Spain, Japan, Italy, Russia, Sweden, China, Serbia, and Finland. She is the recipient of a Writing Fellowship from the California Arts Council, a grant from the Poetry Fund, and a Translation Fellowship (for her Russian translations) from the National Endowment for the Arts; she received an Award for Independent Literature from the Soviet literary organization =B3Poetic Function=B2 in Leningrad in 1989. She has traveled and lectured extensively in Russia as well as Europe, and Description (1990) and Xenia (1994), two volumes of her translations from the work of the contemporary Russian poet Arkadii Dragomoshchenko, have bee= n published by Sun and Moon Press. Since 1976, Hejinian has been the editor o= f Tuumba Press and from 1981 to 1999 she was the co-editor (with Barrett Watten) of Poetics Journal. She is currently the co-director (with Travis Ortiz) of Atelos, a literary project commissioning and publishing cross-genre work by poets. She teaches in the English Department at the University of California, Berkeley. * * * SUBSCRIBE TO THE SERIES Dear Friends,=20 This year marks the tenth anniversary of the Belladonna Series, curated by Rachel Levitsky and Erica Kaufman in New York City. To celebrate the occasion, the editors are celebrating artists who have influenced the members of this community of conversation, and publishing 8 perfect bound books=8Bone a month. The =B3Elders Series=B2 is guest-curated. Each book, printed as a one-time limited edition (276 - 326 copies ONLY), is beautifully designed and slightly square-shaped (6x7). Each contains the work of the two or three people who read the night the book is released. The books are considered conversations between writers who are in dialogue. #8: Jane Sprague, Diane Ward, and Tina Darragh Tuesday, June 9, 2009 #7: Cara Benson, Jayne Cortez, and Anne Waldman Tuesday, April 28, 2009 #6: Kate Eichorn, M. NourbeSe Philip, and Gail Scott Tuesday, April 14, 2009 #5: Lyn Hejinian, Etel Adnan, and Jennifer Scappettone Tuesday, March 3, 2009 #4: Emma Bee Bernstein, Susan Bee, and Marjorie Perloff Sunday, March 1, 2009 #3: Chris Kraus and Tisa Bryant Tuesday, January 13, 2009 #2: Bob Gluck and Sara Schulman (hosted by Erica Kaufman and Rachel Levitsky) Tuesday, December 16, 2008 #1: Tracy Grinnell and Leslie Scalapino Tuesday, November 11, 2008 I'm writing to ask you to subscribe to the series. It costs $100.00, a bargain-basement price! (Shipping is free). The editors are only selling up to 150 subscriptions! And they are dependent upon subscriptions to fund the series. Go to http://belladonnaseries.org/books.html for more information on ordering. =20 Yours, The Editors and the Authors P.S.--if you know someone in particular whom you think would enjoy this series, please let that person know about it=8A.forward as you like. About Belladonna*: Belladonna* began as a reading and salon series at Bluestocking=B9s Women=B9s Bookstore on New York City=B9s Lower East Side in August 1999. In June 2000, in collaboration with Boog Literature, Belladonna* began to publish commemorative =8Cchaplets=B9 of the readers=B9 work (the entire series is available by subscription to individual collectors and libraries). This year marks the tenth anniversary of our mission to promote the work of women writers who are adventurous, experimental, politically involved, multi-form, multicultural, multi-gendered, impossible to define, delicious to talk about, unpredictable, and dangerous with language. Belladonna* has featured over 150 writers of wildly diverse age and origin, writers who work in conversation and collaboration within and between multiple forms, languages, critical fields. As performance and as printed text, the work collects, gathers over time and space, and forms a kind of conversation about the feminist avant-garde, what it is and how it comes to be. Our anniversary Elders Series is a continuation of this conversation, which highlights the fact of influence and continuity of the ideas, poetics, and concerns we circle through. http://www.belladonnaseries.org/authors.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:30:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! Comments: To: emersoninst@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <319427.90743.qm@web46208.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: > ... insofar as market economies spread out power quite a bit, and > insofar as government concentrate power quite a bit, government are > necessarily more corrupt than are markets.< By this argument you'd have to concede that unions, because they spread power out over the whole union membership, cannot be as corrupt as the management of an individual company, which concentrates power, and that, therefore, unions are good and management is bad. It's your argument that's bad, though, because you cannot generalize from it to all instances -- or, more accurately, when we do, you reject some of the conclusions and accept others on grounds that have nothing to do with "power" and everything to do with ideology. On 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: > More, the structures of > government tend to protect corruption more than does the market. > Cheaters exposed in government often are rewarded; cheaters exposed > in the economy often lose their wealth (there are exceptions to both > cases, but the exceptions do not negate the rule).< I can refute this outright from my own experience. When I was a legislative aide to a US Senator who was on the Judiciary Committee, the law was that no one could own more than 5 radio and 5 tv stations, and 5 newspapers, and they could not be in the same markets. At that time, however, the Justice Department was suing both IBM and ATT for monopolistic practices. I got a phone call from a lawyer asking me two simple questions: how many attorneys are there in the Justice Department working on the IBM and ATT cases, and how many attorneys are there altogether in the JD? He then, he told me years later, on the basis of the fact that almost all the attorneys at Justice were involved in one or the other of the big cases, and airline and trucking deregulation were the next big projects, advised his client to go ahead and buy radio and tv stations, and newspapers, whether they were in the same market or not, because no one was watching. Not only did that guy do it, but so did a lot of other people. What was Congress's reaction when, finally, after years of litigation with IBM, ATT, and the airline and trucking industries, the fact that there were people who owned dozens of radio and tv stations and newspapers quite illegally, often in the same markets? They changed the law to accommodate the illegal business practices. The corruption was not in the government, it was in the market. People lie, steal, and cheat at every opportunity, and when they have cheated enough to be very very rich can institutionalize their cheating. It's all too true that there is corruption in government, but the corruption is works its way into government from the market, not the other way around. In this case, Congress didn't have the nerve to put a whole bunch of rich people in jail, and besides, Reagan had just won an election by then, and the first eight years of darkness had begun. On 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: > ... There > is a role for the enforcement of contracts voluntarily entered into > and the enforcement of laws against murder, lying/cheating, and > theft (I also think governments should not engage in such actions).< The market has no effective mechanism to regulate practices among those who trade in that market because any means that produce profit are seen by the market to be legitimate means, irrespective of how those means might be viewed from a moral or a legal perspective. What government does is provide a countervailing force to the profit motive on grounds that are moral, and, thus, outside the ambit of the market. Given a free market, nothing is illegal -- actions are either profitable or not, but that is all. No market is really free, though, is it? There are always pesky rules and laws and regulations that prevent murder, slavery, prostitution, drugs, and other profitable lines of business from being freely practiced. When you're trading favors with your kin and neighbors in a non-market economy, the normative morality prevails, and what we would regard as good business practices, such as enforcing contracts, collecting interest and rent, getting paid in full and on time, and the like, simply don't work very well because the community's moral disapproval of someone who'd put his brother in law in jail for debt and his sister in the poor-house is stronger than the pain of the loss of debt forgiveness. Business doesn't thrive in that sort of community because there is no market. Early markets are regulated by the local strong-man's whim and caprice; better- established markets are regulated by some larger political entity's tax interest; mature markets are able to influence the laws by which they are regulated. In every case the market (such as it may be) and the government (such as it may be) are partners in the enterprise. It is, in short (too late, I know) not the case that the government is some kind of leech on the life-blood of the market, nor is the market some necessary evil the government must endure. On the contrary, the market and the government are full partners in the establishment of a political economy, peace, prosperity, and stability. The government is fully involved in the market, not merely the ownner of the army at the border. The market without the government, the market with its own private army and police and rules, doesn't operate as a marketplace where price, service, and quality competition work to provide a wide variety of goods and services at a wide variety of prices and qualities. The representatives of a market without a government are simply thieves -- they take what they please at the price they please, and they do as they please. Of course we've seen in the various totalitarian communist regimes over the last 90 years what government without markets does: pretty much the same. What you don't seem to see is that there is a necessity for regulating markets by government because markets cannot regulate themselves by values outside that of profitability. And profitability is simply inadequate as the highest value for human life. Marcus > From: Marcus Bales > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 9:33:50 AM > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > On 1 Mar 2009 at 12:42, Troy Camplin wrote: > > HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more > > corrupt, and that government is far more corrupting, than are > those > > who participate in the free market, or than the free market is. > > Wrong, Troy, on both counts. > > History shows that privilege corrupts, whatever form it may take -- > and it doesn't matter > where privilege comes from, it corrupts equally across all classes > and modes of life. > There is no such thing as a government more corrupt than a market, > or a market more > corrupt than a government. People will always find a way to cheat to > get ahead, and > those who do will be privileged over those who don't, and those who > are privileged will > find a way to institutionalize their privilege. > > In fact proponents of government and of the market are in a constant > balancing act, > each trying to catch the other out in their inevitable corruptions. > Markets without > regulatory governments are brutalizing; governments without > liberating markets are > brutalizing. Even without transparency in regulation and operation > governments and > markets balance one another to a limited extent. But the more > transparency there is in > both regulation and market operation the better the balance between > governments and > markets work. > > The problem isn't government/market, or left/right; the problem is > people are perfectly > willing to lie and cheat under any system to gain privilege for > themselves, their families, > and their friends, and then try to institutionalize those privileges > for their own, and their > progeny's, advantage. > > Under any form of social organization the liars and cheaters will > gain privilege and > institutionalize those privileges. The struggle is to marginalize > the liars and cheaters > and maximize transparency of operation in order to make it just a > little more likely that > the people willing to accede to the rules and work hard within them > will not have their > gains stolen from them by the liars and cheaters. > > But the temptation to lie a little and cheat a little is endemic to > the human animal. You > can see it in operation even in gift economies where if you disagree > with the people in > charge they'll kick you out of the discussion group, or put you on > read-only status and > prevent you from joining in even if you can read what others say. > > Marcus > > > > > > > > > I don't deny the importance of patronage. We need a gift market > as > > well. A free gift market is not inconsistent with the market > > economy. In fact, there is a long history of very wealthy > > capitalists who were incredibly generous with their largesse. > Which > > is to be compared with government leaders, who are incredibly > > generous with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral -- > to > > be generous with other people's money. So patronage is important. > I > > think it should come about voluntarily. You think it is > perfectly > > acceptable to take money by force (try not to pay your taxes and > see > > if it isn't taken by force). That is where we disagree. In fact, > I > > think patronage is so important, I have started a nonprofit > > organization to provide patronage for the arts. We won't take > money > > form the government, though, as I find taking money from the > > government to be unethical. We will take voluntary donations > from > > people so that we can one day patronize artists, writers, > > etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of. > > > > There is no such thing as a disinterested outcome when it comes > to > > people. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mark Weiss > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > Brava, Alison. > > > > At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote: > > > I live in a country where there is government subsidy for the > > arts. It > > > is by no means a bad thing. It is vastly prefereble for, say, > > poetry > > > publishers to be subsidised to publish poetry books than the > > system > > > you have in the US, where publishers run competitions charging > > > appellants to enter so they can continue to publish books, > > which > > > creates a competition culture that is, to my mind, more > corrupting > > by > > > far. Your deep study of history, Troy, will have shown you > that > > while > > > some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the > stuff > > we > > > now consider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of > > > patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether it's a > > wealthy > > > patron or a government sponsored organisation, and someone has > > to > > > decide where it ought to go, and sometimes it will be wasted > and > > > sometimes it will not. And any scheme is going to be > imperfect. > > There > > > wil be patrons with exercrable taste who only want to be > > flattered, > > > corporations with no taste at all which only want to be > flattered, > > and > > > governments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic > boxes. > > But > > > in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among the evils > on > > offer, > > > because there is actually in practice more chance of a > > disinterested > > > outcome. In Australia, it is arms length funding with a > process > > of > > > peer review. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, > as > > I > > > said, but as a system it produces a lot of very high quality > art > > that > > > otherwise would be unsustainable. > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be > > true." The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It > is > > an imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow > for > > a wide variety of options. The government does not give you > options. > > It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't > like > > government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand > car? > > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the > rub, > > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be > > government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > > support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be > someone > > deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I > don't > > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with > whom > > you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. > Or > > should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by > > democratic vote? How many here write > > anything a > > > > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a > committee? > > Similar problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has > the > > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be > determined? > > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be > to > > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they > are > > already successful, why do they need government funding? And if > they > > are not successful, how does the government determine who to > give > > funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, > what > > prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough > > really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go > get > > a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the > history > > of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other > > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the > > arts. > > > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Paul Nelson > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO...EDU > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > > > > > From: Troy Camplin > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > > > > > One > > > > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with > this > > list, > > > > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point > to > > the fact > > > > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy > > during > > > > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also > not > > going > > > > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. > If > > you want > > > > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine > and > > good -- > > > > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating > > people in > > > > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you > people > > have to > > > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a > few > > straw men > > > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > > > > > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the > market > > as any > > > > guide to quality in the arts.. In fact, the opposite may be > > true, but > > > > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > > > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > > > > > Global Voices Radio > > > > SPLAB! > > > > American Sentences > > > > Organic Poetry > > > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > > > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: > > 3/1/2009 5:46 PM > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: > 3/1/2009 5:46 PM > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 09:16:51 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Luong?= Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to learn wha= t is good and what is not good." And who is going to do that education, Tro= y? The marketing department? I think we already have such situation. I mean= , aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because they have a bigger= marketing department than say, New Model Army?=0A=0AIn all seriousness, yo= ur argument is based on magical thinking. There is no account for naturally= occurring taste, especially in a free market. What you base your argument = on is, one, that all people are reasonable, two, that reason will lead them= toward goodness. There are however no evidence for this assertion, much li= ke there is no evidence for the free market being able to nurture art as we= understand it. In the contrary, state-funded art goes back all the way to = the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, for example? Or Leonardo receiving= his funding from Francis I of France? An example of an artistic situation = within a free market context? Try Germany in the 1930s (just because the Na= zi have "Socialist" in their name does not make them socialists. Being in t= he pocket of Mercedes and Krupp proves it), with the painters of the Neue S= achlichkeit being persecuted because their art was not marketable to the Ge= rman populace.=0A=0Afran=E7ois luong=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________= ________=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSER= V.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift= Economy=0A=0AYou only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not= in agreement with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm lookin= g for in high art. What you missed was what came after the comma. The marke= t also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good = and what is not good. The same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his bas= ement would be terribly disappointed to find such a work in his museum when= he went to visit. There is a difference between what people like in a gene= ral sort of way and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. My wi= fe, for example, thinks that opera is literally the best way to spend an ev= ening. But she also listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my posting,= you will note that I differentiate between what the market does in allowin= g for niches and true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the majority. = In that case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is= =0Aprecisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting the arts= .=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Joh= n Cunningham =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0A= Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker playin= g=0Adogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic merit"!= =0AThere are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If it h= ad=0Abeen allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the= =0AEmancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of legislati= on=0Aever and popular support was vastly against it.=0AJohn Herbert Cunning= ham=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailt= o:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of Troy Camplin=0ASent: March-0= 1-09 2:21 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy= =0A=0AFunny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The mark= et is=0Ain fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to t= he horror=0Aof the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to h= ave access to=0Aworks that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we wo= uld only listen=0Ato Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled= arts, we would=0Aonly listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm= guessing something=0Aalong the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the f= ree market can I listen=0Ato Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally= , one of the reasons why I=0Aset up the Emerson Institute was to truly demo= cratize patronage of the arts=0A-- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equali= ty under the law, yes;=0Acollectivist egalitarianism, no. =0A=0ATroy Campli= n=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Marcus Bales =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, Febru= ary 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AThe problem with = Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free market=0Ais a good=0Aj= udge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an=0Auntena= ble position:=0Ahe's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than oth= ers, and that=0Asome people=0Acan tell which ones those poems are -- it's a= n elitist position, one that=0Awill get him in a=0Alot of trouble if he's n= ot careful, and get him lumped in with Troy as an=0Aequality-hater.=0ABe ca= reful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than others,=0Ao= r some=0Apoets better than others, without getting accused of elitism!=0A= =0AYou're not an elitist, are you, Paul?=0A=0AMarcus=0A=0A=0AOn 26 Feb 2009= at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote:=0A=0ADate sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:4= 0:55 -0800=0ASend reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)"=0A=0AFrom: Paul Nelson =0A= Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.= BUFFALO.EDU=0A=0A> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a fa= lse dich=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand= on a false=0A> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNME= NT. I was=0A> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good= judge=0A> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have= =0A> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner.=0A>=0A> What is los= t in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can=0A> actually get it ba= ck to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of=0A> the gift economy.=0A>= =0A> from Wikipedia:=0A>=0A>=0A> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in wh= ich goods and services are=0A> given without any explicit agreement for imm= ediate or future quid=0A> pro quo.=0A> Ideally simultaneous or recurring gi= ving serves to circulate and=0A> redistribute valuables within a community.= This can be considered=0A> a=0A> form of reciprocal altruism.=0A> The conc= ept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned=0A> economy or a mark= et or barter economy.=0A> In a planned economy, goods and services are dist= ributed by=0A> explicit=0A> command and control rather than informal custom= ; in barter or=0A> market=0A> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exch= ange of money or some=0A> other commodity - is established before the trans= action takes=0A> place.=0A>=0A> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in = years past) had a=0A> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and= Neruda as=0A> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have s= ocial=0A> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without=0A> = becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours.=0A>=0A> I'd like nothing more th= an a drastic reduction in Federal Spending,=0A> starting with the outlays f= or militarism:=0A>=0A>=0A> Again Wiki:=0A>=0A>=0A> As of 2009, the United S= tates government is spending about $1=0A> trillion annually on defense-rela= ted purposes.=0A>=0A> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses = in underserved=0A> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies = on a=0A> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes mu= ch=0A> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and= =0A> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs=0A>= FREE MARKET, little light is generated.=0A>=0A> Charles Olson, William Car= los Williams and others had some inkling=0A> about the importance of the lo= cal, hence The Maximus Poems and=0A> Paterson. This, to me, is the link bet= ween the discusson of Free=0A> Markets vs Government intervention and POETI= CS is, in theory anyway,=0A> the mission of this listserv. May it be so.=0A= >=0A>=0A> Paul=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> = SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog= =0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> __________= ______________________=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> T= o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:2= 7 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> Now there's a f= undamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true."=0A> The market sometim= es recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an=0A> imperfect arbiter of tast= e. What it does do, though, is allow for a=0A> wide variety of options. The= government does not give you options.=0A> It is a monopoly. You get what t= hey give you, or nothing. Don't like=0A> government-brand corn? Too bad. Do= n't like the government-brand car?=0A> Too bad. Don't like government-brand= art? AH, but there's the rub,=0A> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe t= here will be=0A> government-brand art. Except that the government simply ca= nnot=0A> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someon= e=0A> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A= > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom=0A> y= ou agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or=0A> sho= uld there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by=0A> democratic vo= te? How many here write anything a=0A> democratic majority would want to re= ad? Perhaps a committee? Similar=0A> problems arise, just on a smaller scal= e. In fact, it has the=0A> problems of both situations. How, then, is fundi= ng to be determined?=0A> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The saf= e bet would be to=0A> give it to those who are already successful -- but th= en, if they are=0A> already successful, why do they need government funding= ? And if they=0A> are not successful, how does the government determine who= to give=0A> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, w= hat=0A> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough=0A> = really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get=0A> a "= real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history=0A> of go= vernment support for the arts and cannot come to any other=0A> conclusion t= hat government funding for the arts is bad for the=0A> arts.=0A>=0A> Troy C= amplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Paul Nels= on =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Sund= ay, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes tal= ent!=0A>=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LIS= TSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> Subjec= t: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> One=0A> can always point to pe= ople who in your opinion (and, with this=0A> list,=0A> mine) are at best em= barrassing. However, one can also point to the=0A> fact=0A> that Picasso, M= onet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during=0A> their lifetimes. I = may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not=0A> going=0A> to deprive anyo= ne of her, either, if that's what they like. If you=0A> want=0A> to try to = educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good=0A> --=0A> but th= ere's no evidence the government is good at educating people=0A> in=0A> mat= h and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have=0A> to=0A> = purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw=0A> men= =0A> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point."=0A>=0A> Troy Campl= in=0A>=0A> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market= as=0A> any=0A> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be = true,=0A> but=0A> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh?= =0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sen= tences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.7= 35.6328=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moder= ated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A= > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check= =0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcom= e.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is mo= derated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:= =0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> No viru= s found in this incoming message.=0A> Checked by AVG.=0A> Version: 7.5.557 = / Virus Database: 270.11.3 - Release Date:=0A> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM=0A>=0A=0A= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo= ..edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poeti= cs List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/= unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts= .. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcom= e..html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderat= ed & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://e= pc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Tobin Subject: Re: Poetics List Welcome Message In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit perhaps we could all limit ourselves to one post per day. that way, the conversation wouldn't be controlled by the person who types the fastest. and that person might take a little more time and post more thoughtful essays which would explore his own thinking a little more, and spew erratic sound-bites a little less. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:22:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Bill Berkson Subject: berkson spring Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable BILL BERKSON readings in California from Portrait & Dream: New & Selected Poems (Coffee House Press) Spring 2009 March 30, 7:30 p.m MOE=B9S BOOKS 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley, California March 31,7 p.m CITY LIGHTS BOOKSTORE Columbus & Broadway San Francisco April 4, 7 p.m THE POETRY CENTER with Kit Robinson & Lewis Warsh First Unitarian Church Geary & Franklin San Francisco May 20, 4:30 p.m. UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SAN DIEGO New Writing Series=20 The Visual Arts Facility Space=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:29:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: FoggedClarity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit March 2009 issue of FoggedClarity live! Site: http://foggedclarity.com/ -- Obododimma. -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:20:59 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <49ABB29C.6635.1C3656@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i love dogs playing poker. CM Coolidge, the artist who created the paintings originally, is I think quite underrated as an american painter. On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > But John, what's wrong with poker-playing dogs? What's wrong with > the market as a > democratic determiner of merit? I thought that's what all the > postmodernists WANT is > to eliminate the very elitist notion that there's something wrong > with poker-playing > dogs. Nothing is better than anything else -- everything is equal > in merit and value; > anything is art that anyone says is art! How can you possibly claim > that anything is > better or worse, or that there is more or less merit to this or > that kind of art? On what > grounds do you hold that poker-playing dogs are meritless, or at > least of less merit > than ... than what, John? What do you say is better, and why do you > say it is better, > than poker-playing dogs? > > Marcus > > On 2 Mar 2009 at 8:50, John Cunningham wrote: >> Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker >> playing >> dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic >> merit"! >> There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If >> it had >> been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as >> the >> Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of >> legislation >> ever and popular support was vastly against it. >> John Herbert Cunningham >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >> On >> Behalf Of Troy Camplin >> Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The >> market is >> in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to >> the horror >> of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have >> access to >> works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only >> listen >> to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we >> would >> only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing >> something >> along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can >> I listen >> to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the >> reasons why I >> set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of >> the arts >> -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; >> collectivist egalitarianism, no. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Marcus Bales >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a >> free market >> is a good >> judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in >> an >> untenable position: >> he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and >> that >> some people >> can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one >> that >> will get him in a >> lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy >> as an >> equality-hater. >> Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than >> others, >> or some >> poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! >> >> You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? >> >> Marcus >> >> >> On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: >> >> Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 >> Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" >> >> From: Paul Nelson >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich >>> Troy, >>> >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false >>> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I >> was >>> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good >> judge >>> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have >>> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. >>> >>> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can >>> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part >> of >>> the gift economy. >>> >>> from Wikipedia: >>> >>> >>> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services >> are >>> given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future >> quid >>> pro quo. >>> Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and >>> redistribute valuables within a community. This can be >> considered >>> a >>> form of reciprocal altruism. >>> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned >>> economy or a market or barter economy. >>> In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by >>> explicit >>> command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or >>> market >>> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or >> some >>> other commodity - is established before the transaction takes >>> place. >>> >>> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a >>> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as >>> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have >> social >>> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without >>> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. >>> >>> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal >> Spending, >>> starting with the outlays for militarism: >>> >>> >>> Again Wiki: >>> >>> >>> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 >>> trillion annually on defense-related purposes. >>> >>> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in >> underserved >>> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a >>> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes >> much >>> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you >> and >>> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT >> vs >>> FREE MARKET, little light is generated. >>> >>> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some >> inkling >>> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and >>> Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free >>> Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory >> anyway, >>> the mission of this listserv. May it be so. >>> >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> Paul E. Nelson >>> >>> Global Voices Radio >>> SPLAB! >>> American Sentences >>> Organic Poetry >>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>> >>> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Troy Camplin >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be >> true." >>> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an >>> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for >> a >>> wide variety of options. The government does not give you >> options. >>> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't >> like >>> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand >> car? >>> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the >> rub, >>> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be >>> government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot >>> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be >> someone >>> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I >> don't >>> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with >> whom >>> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. >> Or >>> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by >>> democratic vote? How many here write anything a >>> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? >> Similar >>> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the >>> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be >> determined? >>> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be >> to >>> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they >> are >>> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if >> they >>> are not successful, how does the government determine who to >> give >>> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, >> what >>> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough >>> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go >> get >>> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the >> history >>> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other >>> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the >>> arts. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Paul Nelson >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> From: Troy Camplin >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> One >>> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this >>> list, >>> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to >> the >>> fact >>> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy >> during >>> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not >>> going >>> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If >> you >>> want >>> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and >> good >>> -- >>> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating >> people >>> in >>> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people >> have >>> to >>> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few >> straw >>> men >>> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market >> as >>> any >>> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, >>> but >>> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? >>> Paul E. Nelson >>> >>> Global Voices Radio >>> SPLAB! >>> American Sentences >>> Organic Poetry >>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>> >>> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG. >>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3 - Release Date: >>> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM >>> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: >> 3/1/2009 5:46 PM >> > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 15:05:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit saw this late he played 2 weeks ago been homeless 40 years 1st time playing in 40 years when did he live in europe?? On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:17:30 -0800 George Bowering writes: > I think we can be pretty sure that that propagandized guy has never > > heard Giuseppi Logan. > Logan lived a lot of years in Northern Europe. > He was wise to it. > He is also a great musician. > The "free" market didnt work for him, > though it works for undressed teenagers who can't play music. > > > > gb > > > On Feb 17, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > Again this is ridiculous. We just came from a gig with Guiseppi > > Logan playing - one of the major avant jazz figures of the 20th > > century - and he's living in a shelter in Brooklyn. > > > > Alan > > > > > > On Sun, 15 Feb 2009, teersteeg wrote: > > > >> The myth of the starving artist--van gogh's the most renowned-- > >> died in the late 20th century--about the time Warhol came in with > > >> Pop. If you're any good as an artist--that means if you've been > > >> able to contribute to the development of the art form you work > in-- > >> you'll sell your work. Though 90%+ of artists who sell still need > > >> to supplement their sales by teaching--though that vocation does > > >> have its perks. > >> > >> regards, > >> bruno > >> cape cod > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johanna Fisher" > >> > >> To: > >> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 6:53 PM > >> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > >> > >> > >>> Precisely the opposite here...so many who are considered > >>> "artists" are simply NOT and we should blithely pretend that > they > >>> are? I am very much aware of those people whose work was not > >>> state sponsered as being artists. Some artists are forunate > >>> enough not to need government support, bbut there are so many > who > >>> might continue to work if they did have support. And forgive me, > > >>> but my breath of what I consider to be the arts is vast. > >>> Nonetheless, it would be appropriate and just to support people > > >>> who are devoted artists...people who eat, sleep and breathe > their > >>> art despite the sacrifice to do so. So much of what people in > >>> this country call art is tied to economy. It is what sells. I > >>> think about the great artists whose devotion to the expression > of > >>> that something inside, something that is inspired because the > >>> heart was open to the possibility of being and because they > could > >>> not survive in a world that places too much emphasis on monetary > > >>> outcomes compels me to say YES!!!! to any pos > >>> s! > >>> ! > >>> ibility that a supposedly civilized society wishes to establish > > >>> as a means of support for that expression. > >>> I come from a family (in Europe) whose artistic voices were > >>> silenced in 1933. Artistic freedom is one thing the people > fought > >>> for after the war- and its government's support for the arts. > > >>> Support so that perhaps they might find their humanity in the > >>> aftermath of so much inhumanity. And yes perhaps there are no > >>> perfect agencies-that is to say in this particular case, one > that > >>> would be fair and just (and YES I do believe that these are > >>> viable attributes and I am not a REPUBLICAN nor a DEMOCRAT nor > an > >>> INDEPENDENT)but I still believe in my ideal world that the arts > > >>> should be supported not by the government but rather through it. > > >>> The government's only vested interest should be one that fosters > > >>> free expression as a means of allowing its artists to be the > >>> voice of its people. That is what the arts should do and that > >>> which does not do this but passes itself as art is merely what > > >>> Joyce said is pornagraphy. > >>> johanna > >>> ---- Original message ---- > >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:59:38 -0800 > >>>> From: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > > >>>> (on behalf of Troy Camplin ) > >>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>> Oh, so only artists who get grants are true artists. And, from > > >>>> the sounds of things, only those who get government grants. > Nice > >>>> to know that that's how you define an artist. I guess you leave > > >>>> out those who don't get grants and who get into galleries or > get > >>>> published. I suppose you leave out all those people in film, > >>>> including screenplay writers, those involved in plays operas, > > >>>> musicals, the many musicians out there, etc. The arts are > wildly > >>>> successful in this country -- but only if we include the > >>>> successful ones in our definition of what an artist is -- > >>>> meaning, those who don't need government grants. > >>>> Troy Camplin > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: Alan Sondheim > >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:26:03 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > >>>> good grief, what's a "true artist" and what does it mean to "be > > >>>> an artist"? I'm sorry, this is ridiculous. "people who don't > >>>> want to anything can play at making art"? Have you ever really > > >>>> been involved with the grant system? You think money goes to > >>>> people who are "playing"? > >>>> this country gives less per capita than any industrialized > >>>> country to the arts. what really gets me infuriated about this > > >>>> is the number of artists I know who can't afford health care or > > >>>> decent housing because of lack of support. > >>>> this is insulting. > >>>> on any other list this would be a troll. > >>>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Troy Camplin wrote: > >>>>> You want the same people cutting arts education in our schools > > >>>>> to be in charge of the arts? > >>>>> I have never met a true artist who couldn't be an artist due > to > >>>>> lack of support. All tons of government support will do is > make > >>>>> it so that people who don't want to do anything can play at > >>>>> making art, reducing the quality and reputation of art and > >>>>> artists. Further, I really do not think you want to > democratize > >>>>> the arts. Do you want a committee deciding if what you do is > > >>>>> art? Do you really want your work put up to a vote? Subject to > > >>>>> political pressures? This is the reality of something like > this. > >>>>> Troy Camplin > >>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>> From: Johanna Fisher > >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:34:18 AM > >>>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > >>>>> I must respond to this kind of hysteria that ultimately > >>>>> prevents us from making the arts what they should and could > be, > >>>>> that is a reflection of what is happening in our society > (since > >>>>> we cannot trust the media to convey anything reflectively nor > > >>>>> honestly) and an example of what can occur when the human > >>>>> spirit is allowed to make itself manifest. So many artists > > cannot BE ARTISTS because there is simply no support. I am sure > >>>>> that the office could be developed in such a way that we would > > >>>>> be able to address any violations to free expression and with > > >>>>> careful selection/ screening of a Secretary (as we try to do > > >>>>> whenever any other Secretary if nominated) we could have a > then > >>>>> have a thriving artistic community. Certainly with all the > cuts > >>>>> to arts education, we cannot expect to have a group of young > > >>>>> people less appreciative of what the arts might do for their > > >>>>> lives, not the least of which is development of the > >>>>> imagination. Perhaps this cultivation of the > >>>>> imagination might just save us > >>>>> ! > >>>>> ! > >>>>> afterall. > >>>>> Professor Johanna Fisher > >>>>> ---- Original message ---- > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:01:32 -0800 > >>>>>> From: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > >>>>>> (on behalf of Troy Camplin > >>>>>> ) > >>>>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts > >>>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>>>> I could not disagree with such an idea more. Here's my > >>>>>> explanation why: http://zatavu.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-to- > >>>>>> kill-arts.html > >>>>>> Troy Camplin > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: Maria Damon > >>>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 6:50:04 PM > >>>>>> Subject: Secretary of the Arts > >>>>>> Quincy Jones has started a petition to ask President Obama to > > >>>>>> appoint a Secretary of the Arts. While many other countries > > >>>>>> have had Ministers of Art or Culture for centuries, The > United > >>>>>> States has never created such a position. Those in the arts > > >>>>>> need this and the country need the arts--now more than ever. > > >>>>>> Please take a moment to sign this important petition and then > > >>>>>> pass it on to your friends and colleagues. > >>>>>> http://www.petitiononline.com/esnyc/petition.html >>>>>> www.petitiononline.com/esnyc/petition.html> > >>>>>> * * > >>>>>> .. > >>>>>> __,_._,___ > >>>>>> ================================== > >>>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > >>>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ > >>>>>> poetics/welcome.html > >>>>>> ================================== > >>>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > >>>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ > >>>>>> poetics/welcome.html > >>>>> ================================== > >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > >>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ > >>>>> poetics/welcome.html > >>>>> ================================== > >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > >>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ > >>>>> poetics/welcome.html > >>>> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: > http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > >>>> | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > >>>> | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > >>>> | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > >>>> | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > >>>> ================================== > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >>>> welcome.html > >>>> ================================== > >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >>>> welcome.html > >>> ================================== > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >>> welcome.html > >> > >> ================================== > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >> welcome.html > >> > >> > > > > > > > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ > > | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: > > | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 > > | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org > > | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > > > Mr. G. Bowering > Okanagan born. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:27:19 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: arts funding in oz In-Reply-To: <7ea03fe50903022243m3c45d987mb4afb5059cef2166@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Pam - sorry if you know how to suck eggs; didn't mean to sound that way. I too am speaking from my experience. And I am kind of fascinated by arts funding, the nuts and bolts of making art seem to me quite important, and have indeed spent quite a bit of time reading about different systems. And literature is only one aspect - there are other art forms that ozco also looks at, and they don't necessarily work in the same way as literature does. Also, I put a lot of caveats in my post, so I don't know why you speak as if I am some kind of ozco acolyte. It seems worthwhile pointing out the merits of the system as well as its demerits, in a context where someone is claiming government funding is an unmitigated evil for the arts. > Maybe some different methods of distribution of the monies the OzCo > literature board does receive would be an improvement. The seed > money thing again - spread it around. > For instance - have many more smaller amounts of money for individual > writers rather than those whoppers of fellowships (although I could > certainly find ways to spend a fellowship over a year or two - quel > luxe) Seed money for what? Even the fellowships aren't that much - 40 grand a year (taxed) for two years? (Not much really if you're raising a family, less than your average office wonk. Ok if you're just one person. So maybe grants should only go to people with their tubes tied?) Most grants seem to be between 10 and 20 grand. Less than that probably is almost not worth getting, in terms of making work...what writers need more than anything is time. I agree with you on means testing. We do have private patronage - Myer being the most prominent. But it's easy enough to find a lot of philanthropic organisations, just google. Btw, I think all artists should read the rightwing columnists. Not all the time, because they make you feel a bit sick, but it's salutory to know what they're saying. And there are in fact grant ghost writers- there is a small industry of them. xA -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:51:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! Comments: To: marcus@designerglass.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would concede that unions are no more nor less corrupt than company manag= ement, since union power is not in fact spread out, but is in fact highly c= oncentrated in the union leadership. More often than not the union members = follow union leadership. In fact, one can look at political support as to w= hether there is a difference between the members and the leadership, since = union members vote in much higher percentages for Republican candidates tha= n support from the unions (meaning, the leaders) would indicate, since the = unions as a whole support Democrats almost exclusively. To the extent that = either companies or unions have too much power over one or the other that t= here is more or less corruption. It also tends to correlate quite well with= whether government supports one side or the other as to whether one side o= r the other is more corrupt. =0A=0ANow, as for radios and T.V., what you ca= ll government being corrupted by the market, I call a successful revolt aga= inst an unjust law. =0A=0AAgain, you are accusing me of being something I a= m not: a political anarchist. The laws the government creates are typically= just only when they reflect rules that have arisen naturally -- such as la= ws against incest that reflect our natural aversion known as the Westermarc= k Effect. Good laws are those that are clear, simple, and create the greate= st complexity of behavior and thus the most complex social systems overall.= Work in game theory and cellular automata show that clear, simple rules ca= n in fact create high complexity. The key is that the rules be good rules -= - a good rule being one that maximizes complexity. The question should alwa= ys be: is this regulation designed to create more complex, transparent beha= vior? Or is it designed to transfer power from one group to another? Or is = it designed to benefit one group or individual over another? The vast major= ity of regulations are designed to achieve the last two, not the first one.= Laws that were designed to achieve the first one would not have to be as complicated, con= voluted, and confusing as they currently (purposefully) are. =0A=0ACertainl= y, murder, theft, and slavery, being areas where both parties do not freely= enter into the exchange (and break social bonds in such a way as to simpli= fy society), should be illegal. None of them are in fact economic interacti= ons (the opposite of an economic interaction is the use of force or fraud).= Prostitution and drugs, however, should be legal, as they are economic int= eractions. And their being illegal causes far more social problems than if = they were legal. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A____________________________= ____=0AFrom: "marcus@designerglass.com" =0ATo: "P= oetics List (UPenn, UB)" ; emersoninst@yahoo.= com=0ASent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:30:30 AM=0ASubject: Re: The Market rec= ognizes talent!=0A=0A=0AOn 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: =0A> ..= .. insofar as market economies spread out power quite a bit, and =0A> insofa= r as government concentrate power quite a bit, government are =0A> necessar= ily more corrupt than are markets.< =0A =0ABy this argument you'd have to = concede that unions, because they spread power out =0Aover the whole union = membership, cannot be as corrupt as the management of an =0Aindividual comp= any, which concentrates power, and that, therefore, unions are good =0Aand = management is bad. It's your argument that's bad, though, because you canno= t =0Ageneralize from it to all instances -- or, more accurately, when we do= , you reject some =0Aof the conclusions and accept others on grounds that h= ave nothing to do with "power" =0Aand everything to do with ideology. =0A = =0AOn 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: =0A> More, the structures of= =0A> government tend to protect corruption more than does the market. =0A>= Cheaters exposed in government often are rewarded; cheaters exposed =0A> i= n the economy often lose their wealth (there are exceptions to both =0A> ca= ses, but the exceptions do not negate the rule).< =0A =0AI can refute this= outright from my own experience. When I was a legislative aide to a =0AUS = Senator who was on the Judiciary Committee, the law was that no one could o= wn =0Amore than 5 radio and 5 tv stations, and 5 newspapers, and they could= not be in the =0Asame markets. At that time, however, the Justice Departme= nt was suing both IBM and =0AATT for monopolistic practices. I got a phone = call from a lawyer asking me two simple =0Aquestions: how many attorneys ar= e there in the Justice Department working on the =0AIBM and ATT cases, and = how many attorneys are there altogether in the JD? He then, =0Ahe told me y= ears later, on the basis of the fact that almost all the attorneys at Justi= ce =0Awere involved in one or the other of the big cases, and airline and t= rucking deregulation =0Awere the next big projects, advised his client to g= o ahead and buy radio and tv stations, =0Aand newspapers, whether they were= in the same market or not, because no one was =0Awatching. =0A =0ANot onl= y did that guy do it, but so did a lot of other people. What was Congress's= =0Areaction when, finally, after years of litigation with IBM, ATT, and th= e airline and =0Atrucking industries, the fact that there were people who o= wned dozens of radio and tv =0Astations and newspapers quite illegally, oft= en in the same markets? They changed the =0Alaw to accommodate the illegal = business practices. =0A =0AThe corruption was not in the government, it w= as in the market. People lie, steal, and =0Acheat at every opportunity, and= when they have cheated enough to be very very rich =0Acan institutionalize= their cheating. =0A =0AIt's all too true that there is corruption in gov= ernment, but the corruption is works its =0Away into government from the ma= rket, not the other way around. In this case, =0ACongress didn't have the n= erve to put a whole bunch of rich people in jail, and besides, =0AReagan ha= d just won an election by then, and the first eight years of darkness had = =0Abegun. =0A =0AOn 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: =0A> ... Ther= e =0A> is a role for the enforcement of contracts voluntarily entered into = =0A> and the enforcement of laws against murder, lying/cheating, and =0A> t= heft (I also think governments should not engage in such actions).< =0A = =0AThe market has no effective mechanism to regulate practices among those = who trade =0Ain that market because any means that produce profit are seen = by the market to be =0Alegitimate means, irrespective of how those means mi= ght be viewed from a moral or a =0Alegal perspective. What government does = is provide a countervailing force to the profit =0Amotive on grounds that a= re moral, and, thus, outside the ambit of the market. =0A =0AGiven a free= market, nothing is illegal -- actions are either profitable or not, but th= at is =0Aall. No market is really free, though, is it? There are always pes= ky rules and laws and =0Aregulations that prevent murder, slavery, prostitu= tion, drugs, and other profitable lines =0Aof business from being freely pr= acticed. =0A =0AWhen you're trading favors with your kin and neighbors in = a non-market economy, the =0Anormative morality prevails, and what we would= regard as good business practices, =0Asuch as enforcing contracts, collect= ing interest and rent, getting paid in full and on =0Atime, and the like, s= imply don't work very well because the community's moral =0Adisapproval of = someone who'd put his brother in law in jail for debt and his sister in the= =0Apoor-house is stronger than the pain of the loss of debt forgiveness. B= usiness doesn't =0Athrive in that sort of community because there is no mar= ket. =0A =0AEarly markets are regulated by the local strong-man's whim and= caprice; better-=0Aestablished markets are regulated by some larger politi= cal entity's tax interest; mature =0Amarkets are able to influence the laws= by which they are regulated. In every case the =0Amarket (such as it may b= e) and the government (such as it may be) are partners in the =0Aenterprise= .. =0A =0AIt is, in short (too late, I know) not the case that the governm= ent is some kind of leech =0Aon the life-blood of the market, nor is the ma= rket some necessary evil the government =0Amust endure. On the contrary, th= e market and the government are full partners in the =0Aestablishment of a = political economy, peace, prosperity, and stability. The government =0Ais f= ully involved in the market, not merely the ownner of the army at the borde= r. =0A =0AThe market without the government, the market with its own priva= te army and police =0Aand rules, doesn't operate as a marketplace where pri= ce, service, and quality =0Acompetition work to provide a wide variety of g= oods and services at a wide variety of =0Aprices and qualities. The represe= ntatives of a market without a government are simply =0Athieves -- they tak= e what they please at the price they please, and they do as they =0Aplease.= Of course we've seen in the various totalitarian communist regimes over th= e =0Alast 90 years what government without markets does: pretty much the sa= me. =0A =0AWhat you don't seem to see is that there is a necessity for reg= ulating markets by =0Agovernment because markets cannot regulate themselves= by values outside that of =0Aprofitability. And profitability is simply in= adequate as the highest value for human life. =0A =0AMarcus =0A =0A> From= : Marcus Bales =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO= ..EDU =0A> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 9:33:50 AM =0A> Subject: Re: The Mark= et recognizes talent! =0A> =0A> On 1 Mar 2009 at 12:42, Troy Camplin wrote= : =0A> > HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more =0A>= > corrupt, and that government is far more corrupting, than are =0A> those= =0A> > who participate in the free market, or than the free market is. = =0A> =0A> Wrong, Troy, on both counts. =0A> =0A> History shows that privi= lege corrupts, whatever form it may take -- =0A> and it doesn't matter =0A= > where privilege comes from, it corrupts equally across all classes =0A> a= nd modes of life. =0A> There is no such thing as a government more corrupt= than a market, =0A> or a market more =0A> corrupt than a government. Peop= le will always find a way to cheat to =0A> get ahead, and =0A> those who d= o will be privileged over those who don't, and those who =0A> are privilege= d will =0A> find a way to institutionalize their privilege. =0A> =0A> In = fact proponents of government and of the market are in a constant =0A> bala= ncing act, =0A> each trying to catch the other out in their inevitable cor= ruptions. =0A> Markets without =0A> regulatory governments are brutalizing= ; governments without =0A> liberating markets are =0A> brutalizing. Even w= ithout transparency in regulation and operation =0A> governments and =0A> = markets balance one another to a limited extent. But the more =0A> transpar= ency there is in =0A> both regulation and market operation the better the = balance between =0A> governments and =0A> markets work. =0A> =0A> The pro= blem isn't government/market, or left/right; the problem is =0A> people are= perfectly =0A> willing to lie and cheat under any system to gain privileg= e for =0A> themselves, their families, =0A> and their friends, and then tr= y to institutionalize those privileges =0A> for their own, and their =0A> = progeny's, advantage. =0A> =0A> Under any form of social organization the= liars and cheaters will =0A> gain privilege and =0A> institutionalize tho= se privileges. The struggle is to marginalize =0A> the liars and cheaters = =0A> and maximize transparency of operation in order to make it just a =0A>= little more likely that =0A> the people willing to accede to the rules an= d work hard within them =0A> will not have their =0A> gains stolen from th= em by the liars and cheaters. =0A> =0A> But the temptation to lie a littl= e and cheat a little is endemic to =0A> the human animal. You =0A> can see= it in operation even in gift economies where if you disagree =0A> with the= people in =0A> charge they'll kick you out of the discussion group, or pu= t you on =0A> read-only status and =0A> prevent you from joining in even i= f you can read what others say. =0A> =0A> Marcus =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> = =0A> =0A> > =0A> > I don't deny the importance of patronage. We need a gi= ft market =0A> as =0A> > well. A free gift market is not inconsistent with = the market =0A> > economy. In fact, there is a long history of very wealthy= =0A> > capitalists who were incredibly generous with their largesse. =0A> = Which =0A> > is to be compared with government leaders, who are incredibly = =0A> > generous with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral -- =0A= > to =0A> > be generous with other people's money. So patronage is importan= t. =0A> I =0A> > think it should come about voluntarily. You think it is = =0A> perfectly =0A> > acceptable to take money by force (try not to pay you= r taxes and =0A> see =0A> > if it isn't taken by force). That is where we d= isagree. In fact, =0A> I =0A> > think patronage is so important, I have sta= rted a nonprofit =0A> > organization to provide patronage for the arts. We = won't take =0A> money =0A> > form the government, though, as I find taking = money from the =0A> > government to be unethical. We will take voluntary do= nations =0A> from =0A> > people so that we can one day patronize artists, w= riters, =0A> > etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of. =0A> > = =0A> > There is no such thing as a disinterested outcome when it comes =0A>= to =0A> > people. =0A> > =0A> > Troy Camplin =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A= > > ________________________________ =0A> > From: Mark Weiss =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU =0A> > Sent: Friday, Feb= ruary 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM =0A> > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent= ! =0A> > =0A> > Brava, Alison. =0A> > =0A> > At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you w= rote: =0A> > > I live in a country where there is government subsidy for th= e =0A> > arts. It =0A> > > is by no means a bad thing. It is vastly prefere= ble for, say, =0A> > poetry =0A> > > publishers to be subsidised to publish= poetry books than the =0A> > system =0A> > > you have in the US, where pub= lishers run competitions charging =0A> > > appellants to enter so they can = continue to publish books, =0A> > which =0A> > > creates a competition cul= ture that is, to my mind, more =0A> corrupting =0A> > by =0A> > > far. Your= deep study of history, Troy, will have shown you =0A> that =0A> > while = =0A> > > some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the =0A> = stuff =0A> > we =0A> > > now consider most valuable, was only sustained by = some form of =0A> > > patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether = it's a =0A> > wealthy =0A> > > patron or a government sponsored organisatio= n, and someone has =0A> > to =0A> > > decide where it ought to go, and some= times it will be wasted =0A> and =0A> > > sometimes it will not. And any sc= heme is going to be =0A> imperfect. =0A> > There =0A> > > wil be patrons wi= th exercrable taste who only want to be =0A> > flattered, =0A> > > corporat= ions with no taste at all which only want to be =0A> flattered, =0A> > and = =0A> > > governments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic =0A> box= es. =0A> > But =0A> > > in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among = the evils =0A> on =0A> > offer, =0A> > > because there is actually in pract= ice more chance of a =0A> > disinterested =0A> > > outcome. In Australia, i= t is arms length funding with a =0A> process =0A> > of =0A> > > peer review= .. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, =0A> as =0A> > I =0A> > = > said, but as a system it produces a lot of very high quality =0A> art =0A= > > that =0A> > > otherwise would be unsustainable. =0A> > > =0A> > > A = =0A> > > =0A> > > =0A> > > =0A> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Tr= oy Camplin =0A> > wrote: =0A> > > > Now there's a f= undamentalist statement: "the opposite may be =0A> > true." The market some= times recognizes talent, sometimes not. It =0A> is =0A> > an imperfect arbi= ter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow =0A> for =0A> > a wide vari= ety of options. The government does not give you =0A> options. =0A> > It is= a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't =0A> like =0A> >= government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand =0A> car? = =0A> > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the =0A> r= ub, =0A> > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be =0A> > gove= rnment-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot =0A> > support e= veryone who says they are an artist. There must be =0A> someone =0A> > deci= ding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I =0A> don't =0A> > = think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with =0A> whom = =0A> > you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. = =0A> Or =0A> > should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by= =0A> > democratic vote? How many here write =0A> > anything a =0A> > > > = democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a =0A> committee? =0A> > S= imilar problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has =0A> the = =0A> > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be =0A> determ= ined? =0A> > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would = be =0A> to =0A> > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, = if they =0A> are =0A> > already successful, why do they need government fun= ding? And if =0A> they =0A> > are not successful, how does the government d= etermine who to =0A> give =0A> > funding to, who to support? Based on produ= ction? Well, then, =0A> what =0A> > prevents us from having cheaters, who w= ill produce just enough =0A> > really bad art to get the funding just so th= ey don't have to go =0A> get =0A> > a "real" job? I think about all these t= hings and look at the =0A> history =0A> > of government support for the art= s and cannot come to any other =0A> > conclusion that government funding fo= r the arts is bad for the =0A> > arts. =0A> > > > =0A> > > > Troy Camplin = =0A> > > > =0A> > > > =0A> > > > =0A> > > > _______________________________= _ =0A> > > > From: Paul Nelson =0A> > > > To: POETICS@= LISTSERV.BUFFALO...EDU =0A> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 P= M =0A> > > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! =0A> > > > =0A> > >= > From: Troy Camplin =0A> > > > To: POETICS@LISTSE= RV.BUFFALO.EDU =0A> > > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM =0A> >= > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! =0A> > > > =0A> > > > One = =0A> > > > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with =0A> t= his =0A> > list, =0A> > > > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one ca= n also point =0A> to =0A> > the fact =0A> > > > that Picasso, Monet, and Ja= sper Johns were all made wealthy =0A> > during =0A> > > > their lifetimes. = I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also =0A> not =0A> > going =0A> > > = > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. =0A> If =0A> = > you want =0A> > > > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's= fine =0A> and =0A> > good -- =0A> > > > but there's no evidence the govern= ment is good at educating =0A> > people in =0A> > > > math and reading, let= alone good taste. I love how you =0A> people =0A> > have to =0A> > > > pur= posefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a =0A> few =0A> > stra= w men =0A> > > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." =0A> >= > > =0A> > > > Troy Camplin =0A> > > > =0A> > > > I prefer the phrase "Peo= ple of Straw" but I don't use the =0A> market =0A> > as any =0A> > > > guid= e to quality in the arts.. In fact, the opposite may be =0A> > true, but = =0A> > > > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? =0A> > >= > Paul E. Nelson =0A> > > > =0A> > > > Global Voices Radio =0A> > > > SPLA= B! =0A> > > > American Sentences =0A> > > > Organic Poetry =0A> > > > Poetr= y Postcard Blog =0A> > > > =0A> > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 =0A> > > > = =0A> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A> > > > The Poetics List is mode= rated & does not accept all posts. =0A> Check =0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub= info: =0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A> > > > =0A> >= > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A> > > > The Poetics List is moderated = & does not accept all posts. =0A> Check =0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub info:= =0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A> > > > =0A> > > = =0A> > > =0A> > > =0A> > > -- =0A> > > Editor, Masthead: http://www.mast= head.net.au =0A> > > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com =0A> > > Home p= age: http://www.alisoncroggon.com =0A> > > =0A> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =0A> > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. = =0A> Check =0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub info: =0A> > http://epc.buffalo.ed= u/poetics/welcome.html =0A> > =0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A> > T= he Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =0A> > guid= elines & sub/unsub info: =0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html= =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A> > The Poetics List= is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =0A> > guidelines & sub/un= sub info: =0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A> > =0A> >= =0A> > -- =0A> > No virus found in this incoming message. =0A> > Checked= by AVG. =0A> > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release= Date: =0A> > 3/1/2009 5:46 PM =0A> > =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept = all posts. Check =0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: =0A> http://epc.buffalo.= edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A> =0A> =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =0A> = The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =0A> guide= lines & sub/unsub info: =0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html = =0A> =0A> =0A> -- =0A> No virus found in this incoming message. =0A> Che= cked by AVG. =0A> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Relea= se Date: =0A> 3/1/2009 5:46 PM =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:03:42 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do we assume greatness looks like? David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. I'm late= getting to this article.=20 Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of his work= s published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his generation, who/ & = what/ is great?? Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet ambitious = enough to be considered great.=A0 I'd include Berryman and=A0 Merwin. Perha= ps Roethke. Anyone else?? =A0 =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 16:28:50 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Skip Fox Subject: Poetry of the Abject . . . In-Reply-To: <49AD02FF020000ED00070593@giadom.drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe it was someone on this list who was asking for examples of poetry of the abject. I cannot remember seeing Mina Loy listed with her great poems of derelicts, the homeless, extremely poor, etc. The most obvious are "Der Blinde Junge," "Lady Laura in Bohemia," "On Third Avenue," "Idiot Child on a Fire-Escape," Chiffon Velours," & "Hot Cross Bum." "Ephemerid" is about an lower class child in the Bowery, not homeless however. The woman in "An Aged Woman" is not necessary impoverished by anything but age. What about W.C. Williams' poetry of the poor, the raped, etc.? (Or his stories like "A Night in June.") Or Sandburg's "Mag" etc.? Rukeyser has great poems about industrial abuse of workers &c. And Lerner (Tillie Olson) about the abuse of Mexican workers &c. Much proletarian poetry. Even _United States_ by Reznikoff. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:18:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eleni Stecopoulos Subject: San Francisco MAR 12-14: The Poetics of Healing: Barbara & Dennis Tedlock In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable **MAR 12-14: Barbara & Dennis TEDLOCK/the Poetics of Heali The Poetry Center presents the Poetics of Healing: creative investigations in art=2C medicine=2C and somatic practice project curated by ELENI STECOPOULOS supported by the CREATIVE WORK FUND Thursday-Saturday MARCH 12-14 BARBARA TEDLOCK and DENNIS TEDLOCK Thursday MARCH 12: "It's the Words You Say That Do It: Indigenous Healing Practices" UCSF Medical Humanities Grand Rounds 5:00 pm @ Cole Hall=2C Medical Science Building UC San Francisco School of Medicine=2C 513 Parnassus Avenue=2C free Saturday MARCH 14: "Speaking of Healing and Healing by Speaking" 7:30 pm @ Meridian Gallery 535 Powell Street=2C $5 (park at Sutter- Stockton Garage=3B walk 4 blocks north from Powell St BART) Presented in collaboration with the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine Medical Humanities Initiative=2C and the UCSFOsher Center for Integrative Medicine Barbara Tedlock is Distinguished Professor of Anthropology at the State University of New York at Buffalo=2C where she teaches courses in psychological anthropology=2C religion=2C and the arts= =2C as well as holistic health and integrative medicine. Initiated as a daykeeper by the K'iche' Maya of Guatemala=2C she is on the Board of Directors of the Society for Shamanic Practitioners and is Editor-in-Chief of The Journal of Shamanic Practice. Her books include Time and the Highland Maya=3B Dreaming: Anthropological and Psychological Interpretations=3B The Beautiful and the Dangerous: Dialogues with the Zuni Indians=3B and The Woman in the Shaman's Body: Reclaiming the Feminine in Religion and Medicine. Her new book=2C forthcoming from UC Press=2C is titled Healing Medicine: Ancient Wisdom in Modern Healthcare. Dennis Tedlock is Distinguished Professor in the Poetics Program and Research Professor of Anthropology at the State University of New York at Buffalo. He is an initiated daykeeper=2C practicing within the divinatory tradition of the K'iche' Maya of Guatemala. His books include Finding the Center: The Art of the Zuni Storyteller=3B Breath on the Mirror: Mythic Voices and Visions of the Living Maya=3B Days from a Dream Almanac=3B and Rabinal Achi: A Mayan Drama of War and Sacrifice. He was awarded the PEN Translation Prize for Popol Vuh: The Mayan Book of the Dawn of Life. Now in production at UC Press is 2000 Years of Mayan Literature. COMING UP: details: http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry MAR 7 A. B. SPELLMAN and WAYNE WALLACE MAR 12-14 THE POETICS OF HEALING featuring BARBARA TEDLOCK and DENNIS TEDLOCK=2C curated by ELENI STECOPOULOS APR 2 LEWIS WARSH and DENISE NEWMAN APR 4 BILL BERKSON=2C KIT ROBINSON and LEWIS WARSH APR 9-10 THE POETICS OF HEALING featuring RA=FAL ZURITA=2C WILLIAM ROWE and NURI GEN=E9-COS=2C curated by ELENI STECOPOULOS APR 16 JOHN GIORNO APR 23 LETTERS TO POETS APR 30 Poetry Center Book Award Reading NOAH ELI GORDON and SESSHU FOSTER MAY 2 ANNE WALDMAN and AMBROSE BYE MAY 6-9 a symposium on THE POETICS OF HEALING project curated by ELENI STECOPOULOS details: http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Poetry has no ebb and flow.=20 It is=2C it abides. Even if you take away its "social" efficacy=2C you cannot take away its living=2C human fullness=2C profundity=2C autonomy. After all=2C it can visibly penetrate also into those spheres where sleep is so active.=20 To "dare" to dwell in sleep=2C to draw nourishment from it=2C such=2C if you like=2C is the unhurried confidence of poetry in itself - it does not need to be "shown the way=2C" to be "authorized=2C" to be controlled (so too=2C correspondingly=2C the reader). Does poetry lose something in such circumstances=2C or does it gain? Let me leave this as an unanswered question. The main thing is that it survives.=20 Drive it out of the door=2C it comes back through the window. ** in memoriam GENNADY AYGI b. 1934 Chuvashia - d. 2006 Moscow from SLEEP-AND-POETRY tr. Peter France (CHILD-AND-ROSE=2C New Directions=2C 2003) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison=2C Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives =20 San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue=2C San Francisco 94132 http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry =20 =20 =20 =20 Windows Live=99: Life without walls. Check it out. _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE= .=20 http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=3DTXT_MS= GTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:54:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nathan Austin Subject: Survey Says! by Nathan Austin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm excited to announce that my new book, *Survey Says!,* is now available for purchase at Black Maze Books . *Survey Says!* is a procedural poem that arranges all of the answers, correct and incorrect, from two months' worth of *Family Feud* episodes. Excerpts are available here and here . *Noctis Licentia* by Amy Lawless is also available from Black Maze Books. "In *Noctis Licentia* Amy Lawless has thrown open the gates of a fascinating menagerie. As the liberated herd rushes by, readers will spot Rochester's monkey and Marianne Moore's exotica, not to mention their own refelctions in tiny or strange, prodigious creatures, but the pullulating mix -- the audacious, bawdy, exuberant mix of humor and vitriol and sweet sympathy is all Lawless." -- Paul Violi ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:21:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Subject: The March 2009 issue of Fogged Clarity is online................ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://foggedclarity.com/ March 2009 Table of Contents Fiction Marcos Soriano Donald Mathison=92s Heart Kristen O=92Toole Half Conscious Braden Wiley Conditioning Poetry Michael Tyrell Restraining Order Barbara Barnard Waiting for Rain Larry Sawyer Rune Searching for Larger Waters Donald Illich Coroner Doors Obododimma Oha A Quixote Against the Unreal Enemy Sarah Sarai Experiential Philosophy James Sanders with Zac Denton Self-Portrait of James Sanders Visual Mollie Bryan Naked Love Patrice Tulai Pills Jamieson Michael Flynn Work in Ink Polemics Jascha Kessler In the Great Dismal Swamp Joe Wagner Uncomfortable Truths about the Politics of Economics in America Aural Strand of Oaks Leave Ruin Fogged in South America =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:42:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Much of the great monuments were in fact made with slave labor? Does that t= hen argue for slave labor for other massive works? Yes, many of our great w= orks of art were government-funded, and government funds come from somebody= with power having enough power to take money from weaker people. To me, th= at argues against that method, no matter how successful it has been in the = past. It's not magical thinking to believe there better, non-coercive ways = to fund the arts, and that we should try to use and develop those. The mark= et is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and can be another.= Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of government. =0A=0AAn= d fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is corporate socialis= m. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for everyone here. There are diffe= rent kinds of socialism, you know -- it doesn't have to be communist in nat= ure. Here is what Hitler's version looked like: he suspended the gold stand= ard, embarked on huge public works programs like Autobahns, protected indus= try from foreign competition, expanded credit, instituted jobs programs, bu= llied the private sector on prices and production decisions, vastly expande= d the military, enforced capital controls, instituted family planning, pena= lized smoking, brought about national health care and unemployment insuranc= e, imposed education standards, and eventually ran huge deficits. In all ho= nesty, it was the kind of economy our government has been actively trying t= o set up for a while now, though it's been accelerating quite a bit of late= ..=0A=0AThose who support government funding of the arts naively think that = they will always have their people in charge and that therefore they will b= e the ones getting the funding. But you can't count on being in charge in a= democratic country -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. I prefer = to keep the government out of the arts completely, so there is far less dan= ger of coercion or censorship -- direct or indirect. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Fran=E7ois Luong =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, March 3,= 2009 11:16:51 AM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0A"The market also allows = for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good and what is no= t good." And who is going to do that education, Troy? The marketing departm= ent? I think we already have such situation. I mean, aren't Shakira and Bri= tney Spears more popular because they have a bigger marketing department th= an say, New Model Army?=0A=0AIn all seriousness, your argument is based on = magical thinking. There is no account for naturally occurring taste, especi= ally in a free market. What you base your argument on is, one, that all peo= ple are reasonable, two, that reason will lead them toward goodness. There = are however no evidence for this assertion, much like there is no evidence = for the free market being able to nurture art as we understand it. In the c= ontrary, state-funded art goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funde= d the Parthenon, for example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Franci= s I of France? An example of an artistic situation within a free market con= text? Try Germany in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in t= heir name does not make them socialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes an= d Krupp proves it), with the painters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persec= uted because their art was not marketable to the German populace.=0A=0Afran= =E7ois luong=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Troy Ca= mplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Mo= nday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AYou only p= rove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in agreement with you t= hat Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm looking for in high art. What = you missed was what came after the comma. The market also allows for persua= sion. People can be educated to learn what is good and what is not good. Th= e same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would be terribly = disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he went to visit. There= is a difference between what people like in a general sort of way and what= people acknowledge to be great works of art. My wife, for example, thinks = that opera is literally the best way to spend an evening. But she also list= ens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my posting, you will note that I di= fferentiate between what the market does in allowing for niches and true de= mocracy, where there is a tyranny of the majority. In that case, one would = in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is=0Aprecisely why I'm not= a fan of democratic government supporting the arts.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A= =0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Cunningham =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March= 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AAre you kidding, Troy?= Only if we want high art to consist of poker playing=0Adogs is the marke= t "the most democratic determiner of artistic merit"!=0AThere are times whe= n democracy is the worst possible determiner. If it had=0Abeen allowed to d= etermine things, blacks would still be slaves as the=0AEmancipation Proclam= ation was probably the most hated piece of legislation=0Aever and popular s= upport was vastly against it.=0AJohn Herbert Cunningham=0A=0A-----Original = Message-----=0AFrom: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFF= ALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of Troy Camplin=0ASent: March-01-09 2:21 PM=0ATo: POET= ICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AFunny thing is, y= ou're right about the anti-market position. The market is=0Ain fact the mos= t democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the horror=0Aof the elit= ists here), while also allowing room for people to have access to=0Aworks t= hat fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only listen=0Ato Br= itney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we would=0Aonly = listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing something=0Aa= long the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I listen= =0Ato Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons wh= y I=0Aset up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of th= e arts=0A-- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes;= =0Acollectivist egalitarianism, no. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A_________= _______________________=0AFrom: Marcus Bales =0AT= o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 = PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AThe problem with Paul Nelson's objectio= n to Troy's notion that a free market=0Ais a good=0Ajudge of artistic merit= is that it means Paul has put himself in an=0Auntenable position:=0Ahe's i= mplicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and that=0Asome p= eople=0Acan tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, on= e that=0Awill get him in a=0Alot of trouble if he's not careful, and get hi= m lumped in with Troy as an=0Aequality-hater.=0ABe careful, Paul! You just = can't say that some poems are better than others,=0Aor some=0Apoets better = than others, without getting accused of elitism!=0A=0AYou're not an elitist= , are you, Paul?=0A=0AMarcus=0A=0A=0AOn 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wr= ote:=0A=0ADate sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800=0ASend reply = to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)"=0A=0AFrom= : Paul Nelson =0ASubject: Re: = Gift Economy=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A=0A> Like = most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich=0A> Troy,=0A>= =0A> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false=0A> dichot= omy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was=0A> only res= ponding to your notion that the Free Market is a good judge=0A> of artistic= quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have=0A> responded in what = I thought was a humorous manner.=0A>=0A> What is lost in the dialog is the = notion of poetry (hey, we can=0A> actually get it back to what the LIST is = about) poetry is part of=0A> the gift economy.=0A>=0A> from Wikipedia:=0A>= =0A>=0A> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services a= re=0A> given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid=0A= > pro quo.=0A> Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate= and=0A> redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered= =0A> a=0A> form of reciprocal altruism.=0A> The concept of a gift economy s= tands in contrast to a planned=0A> economy or a market or barter economy.= =0A> In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by=0A> explic= it=0A> command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or=0A> ma= rket=0A> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some= =0A> other commodity - is established before the transaction takes=0A> plac= e.=0A>=0A> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a=0A>= different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as=0A> Ambass= adors, for example. Most industrial democracies have social=0A> safety nets= allowing an artist to live a decent life without=0A> becoming a corporate = puppet, but not ours.=0A>=0A> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reductio= n in Federal Spending,=0A> starting with the outlays for militarism:=0A>=0A= >=0A> Again Wiki:=0A>=0A>=0A> As of 2009, the United States government is s= pending about $1=0A> trillion annually on defense-related purposes.=0A>=0A>= Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved=0A> ar= eas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a=0A> bioregional = (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes much=0A> less of a fact= or which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and=0A> I have. But when= you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs=0A> FREE MARKET, little = light is generated.=0A>=0A> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and othe= rs had some inkling=0A> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximu= s Poems and=0A> Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of= Free=0A> Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyw= ay,=0A> the mission of this listserv. May it be so.=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul=0A>=0A= >=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American S= entences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253= ..735.6328=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________= =0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BU= FFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM=0A> Subject: Re: = The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> Now there's a fundamentalist statemen= t: "the opposite may be true."=0A> The market sometimes recognizes talent, = sometimes not. It is an=0A> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, th= ough, is allow for a=0A> wide variety of options. The government does not g= ive you options.=0A> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothi= ng. Don't like=0A> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the governmen= t-brand car?=0A> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's = the rub,=0A> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be=0A> gover= nment-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot=0A> support every= one who says they are an artist. There must be someone=0A> deciding who get= s supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A> think so. Me? Don't = think so. This year it may be someone with whom=0A> you agree; next year it= may be someone with whom you never agree. Or=0A> should there be a democra= tic vote? Do you really want art by=0A> democratic vote? How many here writ= e anything a=0A> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committe= e? Similar=0A> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the= =0A> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined?= =0A> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to=0A= > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are=0A> = already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they=0A> ar= e not successful, how does the government determine who to give=0A> funding= to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what=0A> prevents us = from having cheaters, who will produce just enough=0A> really bad art to ge= t the funding just so they don't have to go get=0A> a "real" job? I think a= bout all these things and look at the history=0A> of government support for= the arts and cannot come to any other=0A> conclusion that government fundi= ng for the arts is bad for the=0A> arts.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Paul Nelson =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2= 009 3:23:54 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> From:= Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0A> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market= recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> One=0A> can always point to people who in your = opinion (and, with this=0A> list,=0A> mine) are at best embarrassing. Howev= er, one can also point to the=0A> fact=0A> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper = Johns were all made wealthy during=0A> their lifetimes. I may not like Brit= ney Spears, but I'm also not=0A> going=0A> to deprive anyone of her, either= , if that's what they like. If you=0A> want=0A> to try to educate people to= have better taste, that's fine and good=0A> --=0A> but there's no evidence= the government is good at educating people=0A> in=0A> math and reading, le= t alone good taste. I love how you people have=0A> to=0A> purposefully igno= re facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw=0A> men=0A> (and women, = in this case) to try to make a "point."=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A> I pref= er the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as=0A> any=0A> g= uide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true,=0A> but=0A>= when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh?=0A> Paul E. Nelson= =0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic = Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A> =3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accep= t all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.= edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetic= s List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub= /unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not ac= cept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffa= lo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> No virus found in this incom= ing message.=0A> Checked by AVG.=0A> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270= ..11.3 - Release Date:=0A> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. C= heck guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome= ..html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated = & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://ep= c.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guidelines &= sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A=0A=0A=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept = all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetic= s/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub= info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:49:51 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <49AD06C6.17702.54CF99B@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unions ARE good and management IS bad! "I've traveled round this country From shore to shining shore It really made me wonder The things I heard and saw. I saw the weary farmer Plowing sod and loam l heard the auction hammer A knocking down his home But the banks are made of marble With a guard at every door And the vaults are stuffed with silver That the farmer sweated for l saw the seaman standing Idly by the shore l heard the bosses saying Got no work for you no more But the banks are made of marble With a guard at every door And the vaults are stuffed with silver That the seaman sweated for I saw the weary miner Scrubbing coal dust from his back I heard his children cryin Got no coal to heat the shack But the banks are made of marble With a guard at every door And the vaults are stuffed with silver That the miner sweated for I've seen my brothers working Throughout this mighty land l prayed we'd get together And together make a stand Then we'd own those banks of marble With a guard at every door And we'd share those vaults of silver That we have sweated for" On Mar 3, 2009, at 7:30 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > On 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: >> ... insofar as market economies spread out power quite a bit, and >> insofar as government concentrate power quite a bit, government are >> necessarily more corrupt than are markets.< > > By this argument you'd have to concede that unions, because they > spread power out > over the whole union membership, cannot be as corrupt as the > management of an > individual company, which concentrates power, and that, therefore, > unions are good > and management is bad. It's your argument that's bad, though, > because you cannot > generalize from it to all instances -- or, more accurately, when we > do, you reject some > of the conclusions and accept others on grounds that have nothing > to do with "power" > and everything to do with ideology. > > On 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: >> More, the structures of >> government tend to protect corruption more than does the market. >> Cheaters exposed in government often are rewarded; cheaters exposed >> in the economy often lose their wealth (there are exceptions to both >> cases, but the exceptions do not negate the rule).< > > I can refute this outright from my own experience. When I was a > legislative aide to a > US Senator who was on the Judiciary Committee, the law was that no > one could own > more than 5 radio and 5 tv stations, and 5 newspapers, and they > could not be in the > same markets. At that time, however, the Justice Department was > suing both IBM and > ATT for monopolistic practices. I got a phone call from a lawyer > asking me two simple > questions: how many attorneys are there in the Justice Department > working on the > IBM and ATT cases, and how many attorneys are there altogether in > the JD? He then, > he told me years later, on the basis of the fact that almost all > the attorneys at Justice > were involved in one or the other of the big cases, and airline and > trucking deregulation > were the next big projects, advised his client to go ahead and buy > radio and tv stations, > and newspapers, whether they were in the same market or not, > because no one was > watching. > > Not only did that guy do it, but so did a lot of other people. What > was Congress's > reaction when, finally, after years of litigation with IBM, ATT, > and the airline and > trucking industries, the fact that there were people who owned > dozens of radio and tv > stations and newspapers quite illegally, often in the same markets? > They changed the > law to accommodate the illegal business practices. > > The corruption was not in the government, it was in the market. > People lie, steal, and > cheat at every opportunity, and when they have cheated enough to be > very very rich > can institutionalize their cheating. > > It's all too true that there is corruption in government, but the > corruption is works its > way into government from the market, not the other way around. In > this case, > Congress didn't have the nerve to put a whole bunch of rich people > in jail, and besides, > Reagan had just won an election by then, and the first eight years > of darkness had > begun. > > On 2 Mar 2009 at 12:19, Troy Camplin wrote: >> ... There >> is a role for the enforcement of contracts voluntarily entered into >> and the enforcement of laws against murder, lying/cheating, and >> theft (I also think governments should not engage in such actions).< > > The market has no effective mechanism to regulate practices among > those who trade > in that market because any means that produce profit are seen by > the market to be > legitimate means, irrespective of how those means might be viewed > from a moral or a > legal perspective. What government does is provide a countervailing > force to the profit > motive on grounds that are moral, and, thus, outside the ambit of > the market. > > Given a free market, nothing is illegal -- actions are either > profitable or not, but that is > all. No market is really free, though, is it? There are always > pesky rules and laws and > regulations that prevent murder, slavery, prostitution, drugs, and > other profitable lines > of business from being freely practiced. > > When you're trading favors with your kin and neighbors in a non- > market economy, the > normative morality prevails, and what we would regard as good > business practices, > such as enforcing contracts, collecting interest and rent, getting > paid in full and on > time, and the like, simply don't work very well because the > community's moral > disapproval of someone who'd put his brother in law in jail for > debt and his sister in the > poor-house is stronger than the pain of the loss of debt > forgiveness. Business doesn't > thrive in that sort of community because there is no market. > > Early markets are regulated by the local strong-man's whim and > caprice; better- > established markets are regulated by some larger political entity's > tax interest; mature > markets are able to influence the laws by which they are regulated. > In every case the > market (such as it may be) and the government (such as it may be) > are partners in the > enterprise. > > It is, in short (too late, I know) not the case that the government > is some kind of leech > on the life-blood of the market, nor is the market some necessary > evil the government > must endure. On the contrary, the market and the government are > full partners in the > establishment of a political economy, peace, prosperity, and > stability. The government > is fully involved in the market, not merely the ownner of the army > at the border. > > The market without the government, the market with its own private > army and police > and rules, doesn't operate as a marketplace where price, service, > and quality > competition work to provide a wide variety of goods and services at > a wide variety of > prices and qualities. The representatives of a market without a > government are simply > thieves -- they take what they please at the price they please, and > they do as they > please. Of course we've seen in the various totalitarian communist > regimes over the > last 90 years what government without markets does: pretty much the > same. > > What you don't seem to see is that there is a necessity for > regulating markets by > government because markets cannot regulate themselves by values > outside that of > profitability. And profitability is simply inadequate as the > highest value for human life. > > Marcus > >> From: Marcus Bales >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 9:33:50 AM >> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >> >> On 1 Mar 2009 at 12:42, Troy Camplin wrote: >>> HIstory shows the people in government are far, far, far more >>> corrupt, and that government is far more corrupting, than are >> those >>> who participate in the free market, or than the free market is. >> >> Wrong, Troy, on both counts. >> >> History shows that privilege corrupts, whatever form it may take -- >> and it doesn't matter >> where privilege comes from, it corrupts equally across all classes >> and modes of life. >> There is no such thing as a government more corrupt than a market, >> or a market more >> corrupt than a government. People will always find a way to cheat to >> get ahead, and >> those who do will be privileged over those who don't, and those who >> are privileged will >> find a way to institutionalize their privilege. >> >> In fact proponents of government and of the market are in a constant >> balancing act, >> each trying to catch the other out in their inevitable corruptions. >> Markets without >> regulatory governments are brutalizing; governments without >> liberating markets are >> brutalizing. Even without transparency in regulation and operation >> governments and >> markets balance one another to a limited extent. But the more >> transparency there is in >> both regulation and market operation the better the balance between >> governments and >> markets work. >> >> The problem isn't government/market, or left/right; the problem is >> people are perfectly >> willing to lie and cheat under any system to gain privilege for >> themselves, their families, >> and their friends, and then try to institutionalize those privileges >> for their own, and their >> progeny's, advantage. >> >> Under any form of social organization the liars and cheaters will >> gain privilege and >> institutionalize those privileges. The struggle is to marginalize >> the liars and cheaters >> and maximize transparency of operation in order to make it just a >> little more likely that >> the people willing to accede to the rules and work hard within them >> will not have their >> gains stolen from them by the liars and cheaters. >> >> But the temptation to lie a little and cheat a little is endemic to >> the human animal. You >> can see it in operation even in gift economies where if you disagree >> with the people in >> charge they'll kick you out of the discussion group, or put you on >> read-only status and >> prevent you from joining in even if you can read what others say. >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> I don't deny the importance of patronage. We need a gift market >> as >>> well. A free gift market is not inconsistent with the market >>> economy. In fact, there is a long history of very wealthy >>> capitalists who were incredibly generous with their largesse. >> Which >>> is to be compared with government leaders, who are incredibly >>> generous with your largesse. It's easy -- and at least amoral -- >> to >>> be generous with other people's money. So patronage is important. >> I >>> think it should come about voluntarily. You think it is >> perfectly >>> acceptable to take money by force (try not to pay your taxes and >> see >>> if it isn't taken by force). That is where we disagree. In fact, >> I >>> think patronage is so important, I have started a nonprofit >>> organization to provide patronage for the arts. We won't take >> money >>> form the government, though, as I find taking money from the >>> government to be unethical. We will take voluntary donations >> from >>> people so that we can one day patronize artists, writers, >>> etc. So be careful what you're accusing people of. >>> >>> There is no such thing as a disinterested outcome when it comes >> to >>> people. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Mark Weiss >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:09:07 AM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> Brava, Alison. >>> >>> At 04:20 PM 2/26/2009, you wrote: >>>> I live in a country where there is government subsidy for the >>> arts. It >>>> is by no means a bad thing. It is vastly prefereble for, say, >>> poetry >>>> publishers to be subsidised to publish poetry books than the >>> system >>>> you have in the US, where publishers run competitions charging >>>> appellants to enter so they can continue to publish books, >>> which >>>> creates a competition culture that is, to my mind, more >> corrupting >>> by >>>> far. Your deep study of history, Troy, will have shown you >> that >>> while >>>> some art can be self-supporting, much of it, and much of the >> stuff >>> we >>>> now consider most valuable, was only sustained by some form of >>>> patronage. Money has to come from somewhere; whether it's a >>> wealthy >>>> patron or a government sponsored organisation, and someone has >>> to >>>> decide where it ought to go, and sometimes it will be wasted >> and >>>> sometimes it will not. And any scheme is going to be >> imperfect. >>> There >>>> wil be patrons with exercrable taste who only want to be >>> flattered, >>>> corporations with no taste at all which only want to be >> flattered, >>> and >>>> governments who only want to tick a bunch of bureaucratic >> boxes. >>> But >>>> in a democracy, I'd rather choose the latter among the evils >> on >>> offer, >>>> because there is actually in practice more chance of a >>> disinterested >>>> outcome. In Australia, it is arms length funding with a >> process >>> of >>>> peer review. It's about as transparent as it gets. Imperfect, >> as >>> I >>>> said, but as a system it produces a lot of very high quality >> art >>> that >>>> otherwise would be unsustainable. >>>> >>>> A >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Troy Camplin >>> wrote: >>>>> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be >>> true." The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It >> is >>> an imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow >> for >>> a wide variety of options. The government does not give you >> options. >>> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't >> like >>> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand >> car? >>> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the >> rub, >>> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be >>> government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot >>> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be >> someone >>> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I >> don't >>> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with >> whom >>> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. >> Or >>> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by >>> democratic vote? How many here write >>> anything a >>>>> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a >> committee? >>> Similar problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has >> the >>> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be >> determined? >>> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be >> to >>> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they >> are >>> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if >> they >>> are not successful, how does the government determine who to >> give >>> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, >> what >>> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough >>> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go >> get >>> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the >> history >>> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other >>> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the >>> arts. >>>>> >>>>> Troy Camplin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Paul Nelson >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO...EDU >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>>>> >>>>> From: Troy Camplin >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>>>> >>>>> One >>>>> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with >> this >>> list, >>>>> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point >> to >>> the fact >>>>> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy >>> during >>>>> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also >> not >>> going >>>>> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. >> If >>> you want >>>>> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine >> and >>> good -- >>>>> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating >>> people in >>>>> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you >> people >>> have to >>>>> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a >> few >>> straw men >>>>> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." >>>>> >>>>> Troy Camplin >>>>> >>>>> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the >> market >>> as any >>>>> guide to quality in the arts.. In fact, the opposite may be >>> true, but >>>>> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? >>>>> Paul E. Nelson >>>>> >>>>> Global Voices Radio >>>>> SPLAB! >>>>> American Sentences >>>>> Organic Poetry >>>>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>>>> >>>>> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 >>>>> >>>>> ================================== >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>>> >>>>> ================================== >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG. >>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: >>> 3/1/2009 5:46 PM >>> >> >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.5/1979 - Release Date: >> 3/1/2009 5:46 PM >> > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:56:03 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <451060.25715.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're starting to sound like an anarcho-capitalist, Troy, with all =20 this talk about coercion. I'm finding it very difficult to pin down =20 exactly what it is you believe in. could you do me the favor of briefly outlining the basic principles =20 of your beliefs? On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > Much of the great monuments were in fact made with slave labor? =20 > Does that then argue for slave labor for other massive works? Yes, =20 > many of our great works of art were government-funded, and =20 > government funds come from somebody with power having enough power =20 > to take money from weaker people. To me, that argues against that =20 > method, no matter how successful it has been in the past. It's not =20 > magical thinking to believe there better, non-coercive ways to fund =20= > the arts, and that we should try to use and develop those. The =20 > market is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and can =20= > be another. Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of =20 > government. > > And fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is =20 > corporate socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for =20 > everyone here. There are different kinds of socialism, you know -- =20 > it doesn't have to be communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's =20 > version looked like: he suspended the gold standard, embarked on =20 > huge public works programs like Autobahns, protected industry from =20 > foreign competition, expanded credit, instituted jobs programs, =20 > bullied the private sector on prices and production decisions, =20 > vastly expanded the military, enforced capital controls, instituted =20= > family planning, penalized smoking, brought about national health =20 > care and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and =20 > eventually ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the kind of =20 > economy our government has been actively trying to set up for a =20 > while now, though it's been accelerating quite a bit of late.. > > Those who support government funding of the arts naively think that =20= > they will always have their people in charge and that therefore =20 > they will be the ones getting the funding. But you can't count on =20 > being in charge in a democratic country -- or even in socialist =20 > utopian dictatorship. I prefer to keep the government out of the =20 > arts completely, so there is far less danger of coercion or =20 > censorship -- direct or indirect. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Fran=E7ois Luong > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to =20 > learn what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do =20 > that education, Troy? The marketing department? I think we already =20 > have such situation. I mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more =20= > popular because they have a bigger marketing department than say, =20 > New Model Army? > > In all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. =20 > There is no account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a =20 > free market. What you base your argument on is, one, that all =20 > people are reasonable, two, that reason will lead them toward =20 > goodness. There are however no evidence for this assertion, much =20 > like there is no evidence for the free market being able to nurture =20= > art as we understand it. In the contrary, state-funded art goes =20 > back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, for =20 > example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of =20 > France? An example of an artistic situation within a free market =20 > context? Try Germany in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have =20 > "Socialist" in their name does not make them socialists. Being in =20 > the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp proves it), with the painters of =20 > the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted because their art was not =20 > marketable to the German populace. > > fran=E7ois luong > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > You only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in =20 > agreement with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm =20 > looking for in high art. What you missed was what came after the =20 > comma. The market also allows for persuasion. People can be =20 > educated to learn what is good and what is not good. The same =20 > person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would be terribly =20= > disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he went to =20 > visit. There is a difference between what people like in a general =20 > sort of way and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. =20 > My wife, for example, thinks that opera is literally the best way =20 > to spend an evening. But she also listens to Shakira. If you read =20 > the rest of my posting, you will note that I differentiate between =20 > what the market does in allowing for niches and true democracy, =20 > where there is a tyranny of the majority. In that case, one would =20 > in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is > precisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting the =20= > arts. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: John Cunningham > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of =20 > poker playing > dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic =20 > merit"! > There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If =20= > it had > been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the > Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of =20 > legislation > ever and popular support was vastly against it. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) =20 > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Troy Camplin > Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The =20 > market is > in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to =20 > the horror > of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have =20 > access to > works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only =20= > listen > to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we =20 > would > only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing =20 > something > along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can =20= > I listen > to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the =20 > reasons why I > set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of =20 > the arts > -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; > collectivist egalitarianism, no. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Marcus Bales > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a =20 > free market > is a good > judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an > untenable position: > he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and =20= > that > some people > can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, =20 > one that > will get him in a > lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy =20= > as an > equality-hater. > Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better =20 > than others, > or some > poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! > > You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? > > Marcus > > > On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: > > Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 > Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > > From: Paul Nelson > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich >> Troy, >> >> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false >> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was >> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good judge >> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have >> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. >> >> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can >> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of >> the gift economy. >> >> from Wikipedia: >> >> >> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are >> given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid >> pro quo. >> Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and >> redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered >> a >> form of reciprocal altruism. >> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned >> economy or a market or barter economy. >> In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by >> explicit >> command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or >> market >> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some >> other commodity - is established before the transaction takes >> place. >> >> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a >> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as >> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have social >> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without >> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. >> >> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending, >> starting with the outlays for militarism: >> >> >> Again Wiki: >> >> >> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 >> trillion annually on defense-related purposes. >> >> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved >> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a >> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes much >> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and >> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs >> FREE MARKET, little light is generated. >> >> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling >> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and >> Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free >> Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway, >> the mission of this listserv. May it be so. >> >> >> Paul >> >> >> Paul E. Nelson >> >> Global Voices Radio >> SPLAB! >> American Sentences >> Organic Poetry >> Poetry Postcard Blog >> >> Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Troy Camplin >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM >> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >> >> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." >> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an >> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a >> wide variety of options. The government does not give you options. >> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like >> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car? >> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub, >> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be >> government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot >> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone >> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't >> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom >> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or >> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by >> democratic vote? How many here write anything a >> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar >> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the >> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? >> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to >> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are >> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they >> are not successful, how does the government determine who to give >> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what >> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough >> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get >> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history >> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other >> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the >> arts. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Paul Nelson >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM >> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >> >> From: Troy Camplin >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM >> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >> >> One >> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this >> list, >> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the >> fact >> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during >> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not >> going >> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you >> want >> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good >> -- >> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating people >> in >> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have >> to >> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw >> men >> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as >> any >> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, >> but >> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? >> Paul E. Nelson >> >> Global Voices Radio >> SPLAB! >> American Sentences >> Organic Poetry >> Poetry Postcard Blog >> >> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date: >> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM >> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome..html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:09:14 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: <617443.96641.qm@web52402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. Charles Olson Robert Duncan Robert Creeley Lorine Niedecker Barbara Guest Alice Notley Jackson Mac Low Beverly Dahlen But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone out. Or several someones. Let's just say the above, certainly, and some others. At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: >What do we assume greatness looks like? > >David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. >I'm late getting to this article. > >Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of >his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his >generation, who/ & what/ is great?? > >Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet >ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman >and Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? > > > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Charles Alexander Chax Press 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 Tucson, AZ 85705-8332 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com http://chax.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:23:06 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Luong?= Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The market already drives more than one art form. As many people= Troy,=0A=0AThe market already drives more than one art form. As many people= have pointed out, the majority of the music industry is driven by the free= market at a global level. Is the music industry any more equitable than ot= her government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed out, the only thing= that is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made quickly, sold for a = lot of money," an argument you completely disregarded in your response to h= er.=0A=0AYou also fail to show how a "nonprofit organization such as yours"= would be a better way to fund the arts. Are you implying you have better t= aste than government administrators and/or anyone else on this listserv? Do= I believe that "my" people would be in charge of a government art funding = program? Certainly not. Even though Canada and France have much better fund= ing programs than the United States, they still have their faults. Does tha= t mean we should scrap them? Well, they have certainly contributed to Canad= ian arts and poetry being more interesting than the majority of US arts.=0A= =0AFinally, many of the programs you are listed had already been enacted be= fore Hitler's rise to power. National health care had for example been impl= emented by Bismarck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) and unemployment = compensation in 1927 at the national level. The L=E4ndern had their own pro= grams before it was made a federal law.=0A=0Afran=E7ois luong=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A________________________________=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1= :42:35 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AMuch of the great monuments were= in fact made with slave labor? Does that then argue for slave labor for ot= her massive works? Yes, many of our great works of art were government-fund= ed, and government funds come from somebody with power having enough power = to take money from weaker people. To me, that argues against that method, n= o matter how successful it has been in the past. It's not magical thinking = to believe there better, non-coercive ways to fund the arts, and that we sh= ould try to use and develop those. The market is one way. Nonprofit organiz= ations such as mine are and can be another. Both are highly preferable to t= he coercive methods of government. =0A=0AAnd fascism is indeed a form of so= cialism -- even if it is corporate socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconveni= ent fact for everyone here. There are different kinds of socialism, you kno= w -- it doesn't have to be communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's versi= on looked like: he suspended the gold standard, embarked on huge public wor= ks programs like Autobahns, protected industry from foreign competition, ex= panded credit, instituted jobs programs, bullied the private sector on pric= es and production decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital= controls, instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about nat= ional health care and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, = and eventually ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the kind of econom= y our government has been actively trying to set up for a while now, though= it's been accelerating quite a bit of late..=0A=0AThose who support govern= ment funding of the arts naively think that they will always have their peo= ple in charge and that therefore they will be the ones getting the funding.= But you can't count on being in charge in a democratic country -- or even = in socialist utopian dictatorship. I prefer to keep the government out of t= he arts completely, so there is far less danger of coercion or censorship -= - direct or indirect. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________= _________=0AFrom: Fran=E7ois Luong =0ATo: POETICS@LIS= TSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM=0ASubject: Re:= Gift Economy=0A=0A"The market also allows for persuasion. People can be ed= ucated to learn what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do = that education, Troy? The marketing department? I think we already have suc= h situation. I mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because= they have a bigger marketing department than say, New Model Army?=0A=0AIn = all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. There is no ac= count for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free market. What you = base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonable, two, that re= ason will lead them toward goodness. There are however no evidence for this= assertion, much like there is no evidence for the free market being able t= o nurture art as we understand it. In the contrary, state-funded art goes b= ack all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, for example? Or= Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of France? An example of an = artistic situation within a free market context? Try Germany in the 1930s (= just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in their name does not make them soc= ialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp proves it), with the pai= nters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted because their art was not m= arketable to the German populace.=0A=0Afran=E7ois luong=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____= ___________________________=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0A= To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM= =0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AYou only prove my point with such stateme= nt. Not that I'm not in agreement with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't re= ally what I'm looking for in high art. What you missed was what came after = the comma. The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to= learn what is good and what is not good. The same person who has Dogs Play= ing Poker in his basement would be terribly disappointed to find such a wor= k in his museum when he went to visit. There is a difference between what p= eople like in a general sort of way and what people acknowledge to be great= works of art. My wife, for example, thinks that opera is literally the bes= t way to spend an evening. But she also listens to Shakira. If you read the= rest of my posting, you will note that I differentiate between what the ma= rket does in allowing for niches and true democracy, where there is a tyran= ny of the majority. In that case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker = as high art. This is=0Aprecisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government= supporting the arts.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________= ________=0AFrom: John Cunningham =0ATo: POETICS@= LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM=0ASubject: Re= : Gift Economy=0A=0AAre you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to con= sist of poker playing=0Adogs is the market "the most democratic determiner= of artistic merit"!=0AThere are times when democracy is the worst possible= determiner. If it had=0Abeen allowed to determine things, blacks would sti= ll be slaves as the=0AEmancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated= piece of legislation=0Aever and popular support was vastly against it.=0AJ= ohn Herbert Cunningham=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Poetics List= (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABehalf Of Troy Camp= lin=0ASent: March-01-09 2:21 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASubjec= t: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AFunny thing is, you're right about the anti-market= position. The market is=0Ain fact the most democratic determiner of artist= ic merit (much to the horror=0Aof the elitists here), while also allowing r= oom for people to have access to=0Aworks that fit their own tastes. In a pu= re democracy, we would only listen=0Ato Britney Spears. Under democratic-go= vernment-controlled arts, we would=0Aonly listen to music that is inoffensi= ve to everyone (I'm guessing something=0Aalong the lines of 50's soft pop r= ock). Only in the free market can I listen=0Ato Franz Ferdinand and Modest = Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons why I=0Aset up the Emerson Institut= e was to truly democratize patronage of the arts=0A-- in a way that was 100= % voluntary. Equality under the law, yes;=0Acollectivist egalitarianism, no= . =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Ma= rcus Bales =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A= Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A= =0AThe problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free ma= rket=0Ais a good=0Ajudge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put hi= mself in an=0Auntenable position:=0Ahe's implicitly arguing that some poems= are better than others, and that=0Asome people=0Acan tell which ones those= poems are -- it's an elitist position, one that=0Awill get him in a=0Alot = of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy as an=0Aequ= ality-hater.=0ABe careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are bet= ter than others,=0Aor some=0Apoets better than others, without getting accu= sed of elitism!=0A=0AYou're not an elitist, are you, Paul?=0A=0AMarcus=0A= =0A=0AOn 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote:=0A=0ADate sent: T= hu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800=0ASend reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, = UB)"=0A=0AFrom: Paul Nelson =0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0ATo: = POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A=0A> Like most of your arguments, you bas= e your stand on a false dich=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> Like most of your arguments,= you base your stand on a false=0A> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MA= RKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was=0A> only responding to your notion that the F= ree Market is a good judge=0A> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, = which is why I have=0A> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner.= =0A>=0A> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can=0A= > actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of=0A> the= gift economy.=0A>=0A> from Wikipedia:=0A>=0A>=0A> A gift economy is a soci= al theory[1] in which goods and services are=0A> given without any explicit= agreement for immediate or future quid=0A> pro quo.=0A> Ideally simultaneo= us or recurring giving serves to circulate and=0A> redistribute valuables w= ithin a community. This can be considered=0A> a=0A> form of reciprocal altr= uism.=0A> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned=0A>= economy or a market or barter economy.=0A> In a planned economy, goods and= services are distributed by=0A> explicit=0A> command and control rather th= an informal custom; in barter or=0A> market=0A> economies, an explicit quid= pro quo - an exchange of money or some=0A> other commodity - is establishe= d before the transaction takes=0A> place.=0A>=0A> Other cultures (& ours, t= o some degree, in years past) had a=0A> different idea of the poet's role i= n society. Paz and Neruda as=0A> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial = democracies have social=0A> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent= life without=0A> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours.=0A>=0A> I'd li= ke nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending,=0A> starting = with the outlays for militarism:=0A>=0A>=0A> Again Wiki:=0A>=0A>=0A> As of = 2009, the United States government is spending about $1=0A> trillion annual= ly on defense-related purposes.=0A>=0A> Imagine $1B of that going to fund d= octors and nurses in underserved=0A> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of stru= cturing economies on a=0A> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Gov= ernment becomes much=0A> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the com= mon ground you and=0A> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the= GOVERNMENT vs=0A> FREE MARKET, little light is generated.=0A>=0A> Charles = Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling=0A> about the im= portance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and=0A> Paterson. This, to m= e, is the link between the discusson of Free=0A> Markets vs Government inte= rvention and POETICS is, in theory anyway,=0A> the mission of this listserv= . May it be so.=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global= Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poet= ry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Tuesday, Febru= ary 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>= =0A> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true."=0A= > The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an=0A> imper= fect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a=0A> wide var= iety of options. The government does not give you options.=0A> It is a mono= poly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like=0A> government-bra= nd corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car?=0A> Too bad. Don't l= ike government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub,=0A> isn't it? Nobody her= e wants to believe there will be=0A> government-brand art. Except that the = government simply cannot=0A> support everyone who says they are an artist. = There must be someone=0A> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to= be? You? I don't=0A> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be som= eone with whom=0A> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you nev= er agree. Or=0A> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art = by=0A> democratic vote? How many here write anything a=0A> democratic major= ity would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar=0A> problems arise, ju= st on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the=0A> problems of both situations.= How, then, is funding to be determined?=0A> How much funding? To whom will= funding go? The safe bet would be to=0A> give it to those who are already = successful -- but then, if they are=0A> already successful, why do they nee= d government funding? And if they=0A> are not successful, how does the gove= rnment determine who to give=0A> funding to, who to support? Based on produ= ction? Well, then, what=0A> prevents us from having cheaters, who will prod= uce just enough=0A> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't ha= ve to go get=0A> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at t= he history=0A> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any ot= her=0A> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the=0A> = arts.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________= =0A> From: Paul Nelson =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFA= LO.EDU=0A> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The = Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 = 1:14:23 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> One=0A> c= an always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this=0A> list,=0A>= mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the=0A> fac= t=0A> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during=0A= > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not=0A> goin= g=0A> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you=0A= > want=0A> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and g= ood=0A> --=0A> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating = people=0A> in=0A> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you pe= ople have=0A> to=0A> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw u= p a few straw=0A> men=0A> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point= ."=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I= don't use the market as=0A> any=0A> guide to quality in the arts. In fact,= the opposite may be true,=0A> but=0A> when you're a fundamentalist, you sa= y funny things, eh?=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLA= B!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>= =0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The = Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines= & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not ac= cept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffa= lo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> T= he Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guideli= nes & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>= =0A>=0A> --=0A> No virus found in this incoming message.=0A> Checked by AVG= .=0A> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date:=0A> 2/22= /2009 12:00 AM=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics Lis= t is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub = info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. C= heck guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.= html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts.. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.bu= ffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe= Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & = sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A= =0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not a= ccept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/= poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics Lis= t is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub in= fo: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:35:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: funding for digital writing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i thought i'd mention that the canada council (canada's national arts funding org) is apparently putting together a program to fund digital writing by 2010. that's good news to me and the rest of us in canada doing such work. i'm not sure if this had much to do with the decision, but http://vispo.com/writings/misc/DigitalWritingProposalNoE.pdf is a petition i wrote with michel lefebvre (montréal), lionel kearns (vancouver), and chris joseph (montréal/london) in 2006. it's a petition for the canada council to fund digital writing. the version of this doc we sent the canada council had a few more sections to it. i've deleted confidential stuff (for instance, the email addresses of the signatorees have been deleted). in any case, i hope the doc might be of use to people in other countries hoping to get the gov or other orgs to fund digital writing of some sort. ja http://vispo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J.P. Craig" Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090304150520.02af2288@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Did any of those people on your (charles) list graduate from Iowa? Smartassery aside, your list is sort of like one I'd construct. And different groups have different greats. I know a lot of people would say Zukofsky. But that'd be a a helluva a thick book. Doesn't this also at some point mark the passing of the author into an even deader death? I'm thinking of Webster's Bunker Hill speech. Once you're in that monument, you're so dead that they can use your dusty bones to justify any stupid Mexican War they want. Or am I now just spouting some version of "I used listen to them back before they sold out"? Does Williams already have one of these bible-paper tomes? Or do we have to be content with the less Authoritative New Directions double- volume set? H.D. sure would be nice. I guess she'd need a couple of volumes, a la Stein's 2.5 inches of shelf-space. He's not a merkin, but I'd like to see something nicer than the pulpy paper thing that houses the Robert Browning on my shelf. Niedecker's got some nice editions out now. And some good attention coming her way too. Creeley also has been feeling no shortage of the hardback loving. (The publication-as-remembrance, a last chance to keep his memory and ourselves warm?) Where's that HD Book? The bootleg is all very well, but how about something I can hold. The e-text kindles no warmth. I'm rambling and procrastinating. There's a huge pile of papers to grade. So I'll close with, come on, how about some H.D.!! JP On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:09 PM, charles alexander wrote: > Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. > > Charles Olson > Robert Duncan > Robert Creeley > Lorine Niedecker > Barbara Guest > Alice Notley > Jackson Mac Low > Beverly Dahlen > > But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone out. Or > several someones. Let's just say the above, certainly, and some > others. > > At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: >> What do we assume greatness looks like? >> >> David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. >> I'm late getting to this article. >> >> Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of >> his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his >> generation, who/ & what/ is great?? >> >> Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet >> ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman >> and Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html > > Charles Alexander > Chax Press > 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 > Tucson, AZ 85705-8332 > > 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) > 520-275-4330 (cell) > chax@theriver.com > > http://chax.org > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html JP Craig http://jpcraig.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 18:01:53 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ryan Daley Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090304150520.02af2288@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've blogged some about this, because it really makes me mad. Orr's article is preposterous. His claim, that there won't be another great poet because there hasn't been a candidate yet, is as absurd as saying we won't cure AIDS because we haven't yet. If you asked anyone to name 10 greats from any contemporary category (film, fiction, music, etc) it would be difficult. The fact that we're living it almost excludes greatness from entering the equation. Is greatness, then, a time issue? What I don't mean here is that "you become greater the longer dead you are," but rather, it's difficult to even identify what is "great" in an era in which those potential greats are working. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 5:09 PM, charles alexander wrote: > Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. > > Charles Olson > Robert Duncan > Robert Creeley > Lorine Niedecker > Barbara Guest > Alice Notley > Jackson Mac Low > Beverly Dahlen > > But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone out. Or several > someones. Let's just say the above, certainly, and some others. > > At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: > >> What do we assume greatness looks like? >> >> David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. I'm >> late getting to this article. >> >> Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of his >> works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his generation, who/ >> & what/ is great?? >> >> Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet ambitious >> enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman and Merwin. Perhaps >> Roethke. Anyone else?? >> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > Charles Alexander > Chax Press > 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 > Tucson, AZ 85705-8332 > > 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) > 520-275-4330 (cell) > chax@theriver.com > > http://chax.org > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:14:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #27: The Art of Confession SATURDAY, MARCH 14 7pm Featuring Doug Ischar & RM Vaughan Guest curated by Nathana=C3=ABl (Nathalie Stephens) NEW LOCATION at the Orientation Center 2129 N. Rockwell -- Chicago, IL (corner of Milwaukee/Rockwell in the Congress Theater building) http://orientationcenter.wordpress.com suggested donation $4 Chicago artist DOUG ISCHAR received an MFA from Cal Arts in 1987. Since 19= 90 he has taught in the Photography Department of the University of Illinoi= s at Chicago where he is presently Associate Professor. His multi-media in= stallations have been exhibited internationally, in Sweden, Brazil, the UK = and throughout the United States and Canada. Since 2007 he has been produc= ing short videos around issues of cross-generational male intimacy and psyc= hological/social loss. Recently, he has been re-exploring and exhibiting h= is documentary photographic work from the 1980s which focuses on Chicago=E2= =80=99s historic Belmont Rocks gay beach and the San Francisco SM leather s= cene at the height of the AIDS crisis. RM VAUGHAN is a Toronto-based writer and video artist. He is the author of = eight books and a contributor to over 50 anthologies. His latest book, Trou= bled: A Memoir in Poems and Fragments, caused much controversy in 2008 and = continues to stir up trouble. His video works have been shown in galleries= and festivals across North America and the world, most recently as part of= Pleasure Dome's annual Best of Toronto exhibition. He also writes a weekly= celebrity interview column for The Globe and Mail, Canada's national newsp= aper. Please visit http://www.rmvaughan.ca. Red Rover Series is curated by Lisa Janssen and Jennifer Karmin. Each event= is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national,= and international writers, artists, and performers. The series was founded= in 2005 by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. UPCOMING April 25 - Carrie Olivia Adams & Andy Gricevich Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 18:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: Live in the Limo, NY March 6-8 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Live in the Limo is a experimental temporary movable intimate white box. Poets, artist and experimental musicians will be collaborating and performing live. I will be Twittering a text of the sounds. Available live on my website- www.art-poetry.info or www.artcurrents.org AC (Holly Crawford's) Facebook and at twitters at http://twitter.com/ACDirect Richard Kostelanetz will have the limo filled with some of his text pieces. I will be performing Found Punctuation from Duchamp, Greenberg and others. Only done twice before: Beyond Baroque and the Bowry. Poetry Club. All the performances are both musical and as well as text and physical. LIVE IN THE LIMO, Champagne, Manhattan and Musical Stylists The AC Institute's unmistakable white limousine will be hosted by 3 very different musical and sound artist, Sawako, Joseph F. Di Ponio and Benjamin Lanz, will collaborate and interact with other artists, poets (Rainer Ganahl, Richard Kostelanetz, Elizabeth Gower, Lee Wells, Holly Crawford and ., and you. You're invited for a special moment in art in our moveable white box salon and experimental space as it provides a temporary residence to an eclectic range of performers. Previous projects in this series: "Critical Conversations in a Limo," "Sound Art Limo" and "Flatland Limo." Champagne, Manhattan and musical stylists are on the menu. "Live in the Limo", will run from 3-6pm on March 6th, 7th, and 8th, making half-hour journeys (6 time slots available per day), to and from the entrance of Pier 92, upper level. Tokyo/Brooklyn-based Sawako, a sound sculptor, a composer/improviser, a timeline-based artist, and a signal alchemist, who will perform an improvised work drawing on the specificities of this peculiar, yet familiar space in motion; New York City-based composer Joseph F. Di Ponio who, in creating interactive pieces, will investigate the properties of this sonic/sounding body; and trombonist/multi-instrumentalist Benjamin Lanz who will be a one-man show-though not one-dimensional, performing a wide variety of multimedia contemporary works, commissions, and improvisations. This event is free. However, space is very limited. The AC Institute is a 501(c) 3 and is under the Direction of Holly Crawford. This event was Co-curated by Sonya Hofer. Holly Crawford hc@artcurrents.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:09:02 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... Comments: To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <617443.96641.qm@web52402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Well, before any of those names I would put Olson, Creeley, and Duncan. On Mar 3, 2009, at 2:03 PM, steve russell wrote: > What do we assume greatness looks like? > > David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. > I'm late getting to this article. > > Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of > his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his > generation, who/ & what/ is great?? > > Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet > ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman and > Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Bowering, M.A. Acclaimed for his modesty. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 18:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090304150520.02af2288@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I try to avoid posting to the list these days=2C but I have to speak up her= e in agreement with Charles. Though I'll grant that Roethke can be interes= ting=2C and I don't have any serious disagreements with anybody on Charles'= s list=2C my own would look more like: Louis Zukofsky George Oppen Niedecker Mac Low Creeley Jack Spicer Frank O'Hara John Ashbery (sp.) Barbara Guest Ted Berrigan Alice Notley Bernadette Mayer Anne Waldman Clark Coolidge But again=2C when we make these lists=2C we're leaving so many people out. The real question behind all these lists are twofold: 1. How is "greatness" defined? Can it be defined? And since the answer to= that is=2C I think=2C that it can't (and no=2C a Library of America additi= on has nothing whatso-fucking-ever to do with it)... 2. Whose values do these lists represent? The second question may be the more interesting. For instance I notice tha= t there are no women in Steve's list=2C although there is no shortage of wo= men in the more aesthetically conservative end of the poetry spectrum which= he apparently prefers. Plath or Rich=2C for example=2C I would take over = Lowell any day. By the same token=2C though Charles and I both have women = and gay men in our lists=2C none of us (and I very much include myself in t= his) have poets of color/non-caucasians. It strikes me that equally intere= sting lists could be assembled which would include the likes of Langston Hu= ghes=2C Baraka=2C Melvin Tolson=2C Nathaniel Mackey (or=2C if you prefer=2C= Gwendolyn Brooks=2C Alice Walker=2C etc.). But who gets to decide which list is the "right" one? Mark DuCharme > Date: Wed=2C 4 Mar 2009 15:09:14 -0700 > From: chax@THERIVER.COM > Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Not the ones you've chosen=2C not for me at least. Not Lowell=2C either. >=20 > Charles Olson > Robert Duncan > Robert Creeley > Lorine Niedecker > Barbara Guest > Alice Notley > Jackson Mac Low > Beverly Dahlen >=20 > But I start on a list=2C and I know I'll leave someone out. Or several=20 > someones. Let's just say the above=2C certainly=2C and some others. >=20 > At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009=2C you wrote: > >What do we assume greatness looks like? > > > >David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review=2C February 22.=20 > >I'm late getting to this article. > > > >Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of=20 > >his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his=20 > >generation=2C who/ & what/ is great?? > > > >Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate=2C a poet=20 > >ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman=20 > >and Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? > > > > > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=20 > >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > Charles Alexander > Chax Press > 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 > Tucson=2C AZ 85705-8332 >=20 > 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) > 520-275-4330 (cell) > chax@theriver.com >=20 > http://chax.org=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <932976.4087.qm@web46206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You like broad generalizations, which would be=20 tricky even if you were more careful. Case in=20 point: the Westermarck Effect. Westermarck=20 observed, and subsequent research has confirmed,=20 that children who live together until age 6 are=20 unlikely to be sexually attracted to each other,=20 even if they're not biologically-related.=20 Siblings raised apart until age 6 exhibit no such=20 "natural" inhibition. And sibling incest remains=20 more common than parent-child incest. The inhibition appears to be fairly= weak. All societies we know of have definitions of=20 incest and rules forbidding it. The rules vary,=20 as do ideas about who one's relatives are. Among=20 the Na, an ethnic minority in China, for=20 instance, families are defined as offspring of=20 the same mother, and siblings live together and=20 raise any children communally, the brothers=20 acting as father. There's in theory no sex within=20 the home or the sibling group. Otherwise, men and=20 women are free to sleep with whoever, and do so=20 enthusiastically and without stricture. Since=20 nobody knows who their father is a lot of incest=20 in our terms happens. It's simply not an issue=20 for the Na. (See Clifford Geertz, "The Visit,"=20 his review of Cai Hua, _A Society Without=20 Fathers: The Na of China (Zone Books, 2001), in=20 NYRB Volume 48, Number 16 =B7 October 18, 2001.) The point being that despite centuries of=20 argument about natural laws there seem to be very=20 few; human behavior is simply too various. I'm curious as to why you insist on playing=20 Horatius at the bridge. Difficult for me to=20 understand what pleasure there'd be in it. Mark >The laws the government creates are typically=20 >just only when they reflect rules that have=20 >arisen naturally -- such as laws against incest=20 >that reflect our natural aversion known as the Westermarck Effect. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:45:54 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: Re: ozco funding arts etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Hi Pam - sorry if you know how to suck eggs; didn't mean to sound that >way. I too am speaking from my experience. And I am kind of fascinated >by arts funding, the nuts and bolts of making art seem to me quite >important, and have indeed spent quite a bit of time reading about >different systems. And literature is only one aspect - there are other >art forms that ozco also looks at, and they don't necessarily work in >the same way as literature does. Also, I put a lot of caveats in my >post, so I don't know why you speak as if I am some kind of ozco >acolyte. It seems worthwhile pointing out the merits of the system as Hi Alison No need to feel sorry, I like the sucky suck of eggs, been doing it so long. Alas, I can't share your 'fascination' with arts funding - although it IS fascinating for those few moments when you get the letter saying you got a grant. >Seed money for what? Even the fellowships aren't that much - 40 grand >a year (taxed) for two years? (Not much really if you're raising a >family, less than your average office wonk. Seed money for the power bill for a few months while you write some poems and don't worry about the power bills ? Sounds okay to me. Wow, I was a 'wonker' for years and years and didn't actually earn that $40,000 per annum. And that fellowship (which seems to go to only 3 Australian prize winners each year, including, I should say, a couple of friends of mine who landed one) is now $50,000 a year for two years I can think of 5 poets who could use $10, 000 10 poets who could use $5000 etcetera TAX - yep - all govt grants should be tax-free - we already invested in them via our jobs. I usually think of grants as 'back-pay' for years of unpaid cultural labour except for once once, way way back when I was young I got a small teensy OzCo grant that was definitely 'seed money' It was great - 1976 ! here's to it! Thirteen more books later. >We do have private patronage - Myer being the most prominent. But it's >easy enough to find a lot of philanthropic organisations, just google. Don't care enough to google, not looking. But,of course, you know, hooray for the philanthropic - tax deductible no less. >Btw, I think all artists should read the rightwing columnists. Not >all the time, because they make you feel a bit sick, but it's salutory >to know what they're saying. I've been fraudulent with you - I have read Andrew Bolt ! (I was trying to stay undercover) > And there are in fact grant ghost >writers- there is a small industry of them. There I've been innocent, naive, eggless even. I didn't know. Thanks for thinking about it all Alison, Pam ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:51:11 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Math and Poetry, Form and Formula MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://poetry.about.com/b/2009/03/02/math-and-poetry-form-and-formula.htm _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Contacts: Organize your contact list.=20 http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-= cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Mark, I would certainly have had Zukofsky, Oppen, on my list -- but I =20= thought it was supposed to be "post-Ashbery." I put Niedecker on =20 because she didn't emerge to most readers until post-Ashbery. But I =20 love absolutely everyone on your list, and I appreciate your putting =20 this forward. Also agree that lists are entirely problematic, and =20 that "Library of America" is entirely beside the point. I appreciate =20 your comments very much on women and poets of color. I was very aware =20= of those issues in making my list, and I would be happy with a list =20 that includes all of your suggestions, plus Simon Ortiz, Mei-mei =20 Berssenbrugge, and, I am sure, quite a few more. When I have made =20 lists for students of "who they should read," the names go on & on & =20 on, for a couple of pages or so. But as you say, is there a "right" list? Does there need to be one? cjar;es charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com 411 N 7th ave, suite 103 tucson arizona 85705 520 620 1626 On Mar 4, 2009, at 6:41 PM, Mark DuCharme wrote: > I try to avoid posting to the list these days, but I have to speak =20 > up here in agreement with Charles. Though I'll grant that Roethke =20 > can be interesting, and I don't have any serious disagreements with =20= > anybody on Charles's list, my own would look more like: > > Louis Zukofsky > George Oppen > Niedecker > Mac Low > Creeley > Jack Spicer > Frank O'Hara > John Ashbery (sp.) > Barbara Guest > Ted Berrigan > Alice Notley > Bernadette Mayer > Anne Waldman > Clark Coolidge > > But again, when we make these lists, we're leaving so many people out. > > The real question behind all these lists are twofold: > > 1. How is "greatness" defined? Can it be defined? And since the =20 > answer to that is, I think, that it can't (and no, a Library of =20 > America addition has nothing whatso-fucking-ever to do with it)... > 2. Whose values do these lists represent? > > The second question may be the more interesting. For instance I =20 > notice that there are no women in Steve's list, although there is =20 > no shortage of women in the more aesthetically conservative end of =20 > the poetry spectrum which he apparently prefers. Plath or Rich, =20 > for example, I would take over Lowell any day. By the same token, =20 > though Charles and I both have women and gay men in our lists, none =20= > of us (and I very much include myself in this) have poets of color/=20 > non-caucasians. It strikes me that equally interesting lists could =20= > be assembled which would include the likes of Langston Hughes, =20 > Baraka, Melvin Tolson, Nathaniel Mackey (or, if you prefer, =20 > Gwendolyn Brooks, Alice Walker, etc.). > > But who gets to decide which list is the "right" one? > > Mark DuCharme > > > > > >> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:09:14 -0700 >> From: chax@THERIVER.COM >> Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >> Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. >> >> Charles Olson >> Robert Duncan >> Robert Creeley >> Lorine Niedecker >> Barbara Guest >> Alice Notley >> Jackson Mac Low >> Beverly Dahlen >> >> But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone out. Or several >> someones. Let's just say the above, certainly, and some others. >> >> At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: >>> What do we assume greatness looks like? >>> >>> David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. >>> I'm late getting to this article. >>> >>> Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of >>> his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his >>> generation, who/ & what/ is great?? >>> >>> Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet >>> ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman >>> and Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? >>> >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 >>> welcome.html >> >> Charles Alexander >> Chax Press >> 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 >> Tucson, AZ 85705-8332 >> >> 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) >> 520-275-4330 (cell) >> chax@theriver.com >> >> http://chax.org >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 >> welcome.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live=99: Life without walls. > http://windowslive.com/explore?=20 > ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 09:17:29 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gary Sullivan Subject: JEROME SALA + RACHEL ZOLF | SEGUE @ BPC | SAT MAR 7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JEROME SALA and RACHEL ZOLF SEGUE READING SERIES @ BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturday March =2C 4:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. 308 BOWERY=2C just north of Houston $6 admission goes to support the readers Jerome Sala has been described as an "honorable hysteric" by critic Peter S= chjeldahl. His latest book is Look Slimmer Instantly from Soft Skull Press.= Other books include cult classics such as Spaz Attack=2C I Am Not a Juveni= le Delinquent and The Trip. Rachel Zolf=92s collections include Human Resources (Coach House=2C 2007)= =2C which won the 2008 Trillium Book Award for Poetry=2C Shoot and Weep (No= mados=2C 2008)=2C and Masque (Mercury=2C 2004). The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Found= ation. For more information=2C please visit seguefoundation.com=2C bowerypo= etry.com=2C or call (212) 614-0505. Curators: February-March by Nada Gordon & Gary Sullivan. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to m= eet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:28:19 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your example of the Na of China only proves the point of the Westermarck Ef= fect -- something which is in fact strongest in humans, very weak in chimpa= nzees, and nonexistent in other mammals. Read also about the failure of min= or marriages in SE Asia and children raised in Israeli Kibbuzim. WIth all h= uman behaviors, there are strong tendencies, but they can be overridden. Th= e effect seems much stronger in females than in males and, as you noted, ex= ists when children are raised together below a certain age. One would have = to look at the age disparities in your example of higher sibling incest to = see if the Westermarck Effect is being violated. =0A=0AOther than the Weste= rmarck Effect, these are the human universals (which aren't weakly expresse= d):=0A=0Aage-grading, athletic sports, bodily adornment, calendar, cleanlin= ess training, community organization, cooking, cooperative labor, cosmology= , courtship, dancing, decorative art, divination, division of labor, dream = interpretation, education, eschatology, ethics, ethno-botany, etiquette, fa= ith healing, family feasting, fire-making, folklore, food taboos, funeral r= ites, games, gestures, gift-giving, government, greetings, hair styles, hos= pitality, housing, hygiene, incest taboos, inheritance rules, joking, kin g= roups, kinship nomenclature, language, law, luck superstitions, magic, marr= iage, mealtimes, medicine, obstetrics, penal sanctions, personal names, pop= ulation policy, postnatal care, pregnancy usages, property rights, propitia= tion of supernatural beings, puberty customs, religious ritual, residence r= ules, sexual restrictions, soul concepts, status differentiation, surgery, = tool-making, trade, visiting, weather control, weaving, combat, gifts, mime= , friendship, lying, love, storytelling, murder taboos, narrative, selecting= , classification, musical meter, tempo, rhythm, tone, melody, harmony, patt= ern recognition, giving meaning to certain color combinations, hypothesis, = metaphysical synthesis, collecting, metaphor, syntactical organization, gym= nastics, the martial arts, mapping, the capacity for geometry and ideograph= y, poetic meter, cuisine, and massage.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A_______= _________________________=0AFrom: Mark Weiss =0ATo:= POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:26:18 PM= =0ASubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A=0AYou like broad generaliz= ations, which would be tricky even if you were more careful. Case in point:= the Westermarck Effect. Westermarck observed, and subsequent research has = confirmed, that children who live together until age 6 are unlikely to be s= exually attracted to each other, even if they're not biologically-related. = Siblings raised apart until age 6 exhibit no such "natural" inhibition. And= sibling incest remains more common than parent-child incest. The inhibitio= n appears to be fairly weak.=0A=0AAll societies we know of have definitions= of incest and rules forbidding it. The rules vary, as do ideas about who o= ne's relatives are. Among the Na, an ethnic minority in China, for instance= , families are defined as offspring of the same mother, and siblings live t= ogether and raise any children communally, the brothers acting as father. T= here's in theory no sex within the home or the sibling group. Otherwise, me= n and women are free to sleep with whoever, and do so enthusiastically and = without stricture. Since nobody knows who their father is a lot of incest i= n our terms happens. It's simply not an issue for the Na. (See Clifford Ge= ertz, "The Visit," his review of Cai Hua, _A Society Without Fathers: The N= a of China (Zone Books, 2001), in NYRB Volume 48, Number 16 =B7 October 18,= 2001.)=0A=0AThe point being that despite centuries of argument about natur= al laws there seem to be very few; human behavior is simply too various.=0A= =0AI'm curious as to why you insist on playing Horatius at the bridge. Diff= icult for me to understand what pleasure there'd be in it.=0A=0AMark=0A=0A= =0A> The laws the government creates are typically just only when they refl= ect rules that have arisen naturally -- such as laws against incest that re= flect our natural aversion known as the Westermarck Effect.=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all po= sts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welc= ome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:36:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I do believe I can make better judgments than any government administrator,= yes. Especially if they are working in their capacity of government admini= strator. Impersonal judgment is no judgment. As for people on the listserv,= I believe my judgment is better than some, the same as others, and likely = worse than a few -- but we are free to have those differences, that those w= ho agree that my judgments are better or the same as theirs can support my = nonprofit, and those who disagree can contribute to one (or start their own= ) that better reflects their own taste. The point is that such actions woul= d be voluntary.=0A=0APersonally, I've seen no evidence that France or Canad= a is turning out superior artists, though I have n o doubt that the French = and the French Canadians certainly think so. I will admit, though, that our= art and literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being influence= d by the French theorists. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________= ______________=0AFrom: Fran=E7ois Luong =0ATo: POETIC= S@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:23:06 PM=0ASubjec= t: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AThe market already drives more than one art form. = As many people=0ATroy,=0A=0AThe market already drives more than one art for= m. As many people have pointed out, the majority of the music industry is d= riven by the free market at a global level. Is the music industry any more = equitable than other government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed ou= t, the only thing that is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made qui= ckly, sold for a lot of money," an argument you completely disregarded in y= our response to her.=0A=0AYou also fail to show how a "nonprofit organizati= on such as yours" would be a better way to fund the arts. Are you implying = you have better taste than government administrators and/or anyone else on = this listserv? Do I believe that "my" people would be in charge of a govern= ment art funding program? Certainly not. Even though Canada and France have= much better funding programs than the United States, they still have their= faults. Does that mean we should scrap them? Well, they have certainly con= tributed to Canadian arts and poetry being more interesting than the majori= ty of US arts.=0A=0AFinally, many of the programs you are listed had alread= y been enacted before Hitler's rise to power. National health care had for = example been implemented by Bismarck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) = and unemployment compensation in 1927 at the national level. The L=E4ndern = had their own programs before it was made a federal law.=0A=0Afran=E7ois lu= ong=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Wednesday, = March 4, 2009 1:42:35 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AMuch of the great= monuments were in fact made with slave labor? Does that then argue for sla= ve labor for other massive works? Yes, many of our great works of art were = government-funded, and government funds come from somebody with power havin= g enough power to take money from weaker people. To me, that argues against= that method, no matter how successful it has been in the past. It's not ma= gical thinking to believe there better, non-coercive ways to fund the arts,= and that we should try to use and develop those. The market is one way. No= nprofit organizations such as mine are and can be another. Both are highly = preferable to the coercive methods of government. =0A=0AAnd fascism is inde= ed a form of socialism -- even if it is corporate socialism. I'm sorry that= 's an inconvenient fact for everyone here. There are different kinds of soc= ialism, you know -- it doesn't have to be communist in nature. Here is what= Hitler's version looked like: he suspended the gold standard, embarked on = huge public works programs like Autobahns, protected industry from foreign = competition, expanded credit, instituted jobs programs, bullied the private= sector on prices and production decisions, vastly expanded the military, e= nforced capital controls, instituted family planning, penalized smoking, br= ought about national health care and unemployment insurance, imposed educat= ion standards, and eventually ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the= kind of economy our government has been actively trying to set up for a wh= ile now, though it's been accelerating quite a bit of late..=0A=0AThose who= support government funding of the arts naively think that they will always= have their people in charge and that therefore they will be the ones getti= ng the funding. But you can't count on being in charge in a democratic coun= try -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. I prefer to keep the gove= rnment out of the arts completely, so there is far less danger of coercion = or censorship -- direct or indirect. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________= ________________________=0AFrom: Fran=E7ois Luong =0A= To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM= =0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0A"The market also allows for persuasion. P= eople can be educated to learn what is good and what is not good." And who = is going to do that education, Troy? The marketing department? I think we a= lready have such situation. I mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more = popular because they have a bigger marketing department than say, New Model= Army?=0A=0AIn all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking.= There is no account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free ma= rket. What you base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonabl= e, two, that reason will lead them toward goodness. There are however no ev= idence for this assertion, much like there is no evidence for the free mark= et being able to nurture art as we understand it. In the contrary, state-fu= nded art goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, = for example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of France? An= example of an artistic situation within a free market context? Try Germany= in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in their name does no= t make them socialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp proves it= ), with the painters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted because thei= r art was not marketable to the German populace.=0A=0Afran=E7ois luong=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Troy Camplin =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, = 2009 12:33:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AYou only prove my point w= ith such statement. Not that I'm not in agreement with you that Dogs Playin= g Poker isn't really what I'm looking for in high art. What you missed was = what came after the comma. The market also allows for persuasion. People ca= n be educated to learn what is good and what is not good. The same person w= ho has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would be terribly disappointed to= find such a work in his museum when he went to visit. There is a differenc= e between what people like in a general sort of way and what people acknowl= edge to be great works of art. My wife, for example, thinks that opera is l= iterally the best way to spend an evening. But she also listens to Shakira.= If you read the rest of my posting, you will note that I differentiate bet= ween what the market does in allowing for niches and true democracy, where = there is a tyranny of the majority. In that case, one would in fact get Dog= s Playing Poker as high art. This is=0Aprecisely why I'm not a fan of democ= ratic government supporting the arts.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________= ________________________=0AFrom: John Cunningham =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 = AM=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AAre you kidding, Troy? Only if we want= high art to consist of poker playing=0Adogs is the market "the most democ= ratic determiner of artistic merit"!=0AThere are times when democracy is th= e worst possible determiner. If it had=0Abeen allowed to determine things, = blacks would still be slaves as the=0AEmancipation Proclamation was probabl= y the most hated piece of legislation=0Aever and popular support was vastly= against it.=0AJohn Herbert Cunningham=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFr= om: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0ABeh= alf Of Troy Camplin=0ASent: March-01-09 2:21 PM=0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFF= ALO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0AFunny thing is, you're right about= the anti-market position. The market is=0Ain fact the most democratic dete= rminer of artistic merit (much to the horror=0Aof the elitists here), while= also allowing room for people to have access to=0Aworks that fit their own= tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only listen=0Ato Britney Spears. Und= er democratic-government-controlled arts, we would=0Aonly listen to music t= hat is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing something=0Aalong the lines of= 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I listen=0Ato Franz Ferdi= nand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons why I=0Aset up the = Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of the arts=0A-- in a = way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes;=0Acollectivist eg= alitarianism, no. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________= _____=0AFrom: Marcus Bales =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSER= V.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM=0ASubject: Re: = Gift Economy=0A=0AThe problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion= that a free market=0Ais a good=0Ajudge of artistic merit is that it means = Paul has put himself in an=0Auntenable position:=0Ahe's implicitly arguing = that some poems are better than others, and that=0Asome people=0Acan tell w= hich ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one that=0Awill get = him in a=0Alot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with T= roy as an=0Aequality-hater.=0ABe careful, Paul! You just can't say that som= e poems are better than others,=0Aor some=0Apoets better than others, witho= ut getting accused of elitism!=0A=0AYou're not an elitist, are you, Paul?= =0A=0AMarcus=0A=0A=0AOn 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote:=0A=0ADate s= ent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800=0ASend reply to: "Poetic= s List (UPenn, UB)"=0A=0AFrom: = Paul Nelson =0ASubject: Re: Gift Economy=0AT= o: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A=0A> Like most of your arg= uments, you base your stand on a false dich=0A> Troy,=0A>=0A> Like most of = your arguments, you base your stand on a false=0A> dichotomy. You say if it= is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was=0A> only responding to your no= tion that the Free Market is a good judge=0A> of artistic quality. I find t= hat laughable, which is why I have=0A> responded in what I thought was a hu= morous manner.=0A>=0A> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (= hey, we can=0A> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is p= art of=0A> the gift economy.=0A>=0A> from Wikipedia:=0A>=0A>=0A> A gift eco= nomy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are=0A> given withou= t any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid=0A> pro quo.=0A> Idea= lly simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and=0A> redistribu= te valuables within a community. This can be considered=0A> a=0A> form of r= eciprocal altruism.=0A> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to= a planned=0A> economy or a market or barter economy.=0A> In a planned econ= omy, goods and services are distributed by=0A> explicit=0A> command and con= trol rather than informal custom; in barter or=0A> market=0A> economies, an= explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some=0A> other commodity -= is established before the transaction takes=0A> place.=0A>=0A> Other cultu= res (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a=0A> different idea of the= poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as=0A> Ambassadors, for example. Mo= st industrial democracies have social=0A> safety nets allowing an artist to= live a decent life without=0A> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours.= =0A>=0A> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending= ,=0A> starting with the outlays for militarism:=0A>=0A>=0A> Again Wiki:=0A>= =0A>=0A> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1=0A> = trillion annually on defense-related purposes.=0A>=0A> Imagine $1B of that = going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved=0A> areas. Imagine a new (o= ld) way of structuring economies on a=0A> bioregional (sustainable) basis. = The Federal Government becomes much=0A> less of a factor which, it seems to= me, is the common ground you and=0A> I have. But when you make fauty premi= ses such as the GOVERNMENT vs=0A> FREE MARKET, little light is generated.= =0A>=0A> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling= =0A> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and=0A> Pat= erson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free=0A> Markets v= s Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway,=0A> the mission= of this listserv. May it be so.=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul=0A>=0A>=0A> Paul E. Nels= on=0A>=0A> Global Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organi= c Poetry=0A> Poetry Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Troy Ca= mplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent= : Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recogni= zes talent!=0A>=0A> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite m= ay be true."=0A> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It = is an=0A> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for= a=0A> wide variety of options. The government does not give you options.= =0A> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like= =0A> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car?= =0A> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub,=0A>= isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be=0A> government-brand = art. Except that the government simply cannot=0A> support everyone who says= they are an artist. There must be someone=0A> deciding who gets supported.= Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A> think so. Me? Don't think so. Th= is year it may be someone with whom=0A> you agree; next year it may be some= one with whom you never agree. Or=0A> should there be a democratic vote? Do= you really want art by=0A> democratic vote? How many here write anything a= =0A> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar= =0A> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the=0A> probl= ems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined?=0A> How muc= h funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to=0A> give it to= those who are already successful -- but then, if they are=0A> already succ= essful, why do they need government funding? And if they=0A> are not succes= sful, how does the government determine who to give=0A> funding to, who to = support? Based on production? Well, then, what=0A> prevents us from having = cheaters, who will produce just enough=0A> really bad art to get the fundin= g just so they don't have to go get=0A> a "real" job? I think about all the= se things and look at the history=0A> of government support for the arts an= d cannot come to any other=0A> conclusion that government funding for the a= rts is bad for the=0A> arts.=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> _________= _______________________=0A> From: Paul Nelson =0A> To:= POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 P= M=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A>=0A> From: Troy Camplin= =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Fri= day, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes ta= lent!=0A>=0A> One=0A> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, = with this=0A> list,=0A> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can al= so point to the=0A> fact=0A> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all= made wealthy during=0A> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, bu= t I'm also not=0A> going=0A> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's wh= at they like. If you=0A> want=0A> to try to educate people to have better t= aste, that's fine and good=0A> --=0A> but there's no evidence the governmen= t is good at educating people=0A> in=0A> math and reading, let alone good t= aste. I love how you people have=0A> to=0A> purposefully ignore facts to ma= ke your points. Throw up a few straw=0A> men=0A> (and women, in this case) = to try to make a "point."=0A>=0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A> I prefer the phrase = "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as=0A> any=0A> guide to qualit= y in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true,=0A> but=0A> when you're a= fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh?=0A> Paul E. Nelson=0A>=0A> Globa= l Voices Radio=0A> SPLAB!=0A> American Sentences=0A> Organic Poetry=0A> Poe= try Postcard Blog=0A>=0A> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.= Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/= welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is mo= derated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:= =0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all pos= ts. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poeti= cs/welcome.html=0A>=0A>=0A> --=0A> No virus found in this incoming message.= =0A> Checked by AVG.=0A> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Rel= ease Date:=0A> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guid= elines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A= =0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does no= t accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A& sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo= ..edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics = List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check guidelines & sub/unsu= b info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts= .. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome= ..html=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is m= oderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: ht= tp://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guid= elines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A= =0A=0A=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & d= oes not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buf= falo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 07:55:33 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Gateless Gate" Some New Pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends, and Colleagues: Here are four new pages (7-10, linked) of "The Gateless Gate": http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate/Pgs%207-8.htm=20 Introduction: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate/Intro.htm -Joel 5 Mar 2009 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 11:59:25 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: REMINDER! SPT Presents Armantrout and Sims Friday night! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't forget to come out and see these amazing writers be fantastic! Rae Armantrout & Laura Sims Friday, March 6, 2009 at 7:30 p.m. Timkin Hall, CCA San Francisco 1111 8th Street, 94107 $5-10 sliding scale/members free! *Rae Armantrout=92s* most recent book of poetry, Versed, was published in F= eb. of 2009. Next Life (Wesleyan, 2007), was chosen as one of the 100 Notable Books of 2007 by The New York Times. Other recent books include Collected Prose (Singing Horse, 2007), Up to Speed (Wesleyan, 2004), The Pretext (Green Integer, 2001), and Veil: New and Selected Poems (Wesleyan Universit= y Press, 2001). Her poems have been included in anthologies such as American Hybrid (Norton, 2009), Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology (1993), American Women Poets in the 21st Century: Where Language Meets the Lyric Tradition, (Wesleyan, 2002), The Oxford Book of American Poetry (Oxford, 2006) and The Best American Poetry of 1988, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2007 and 2008.. Armantrout received an award in poetry from the Foundation for Contemporary Arts in 2007 and a Guggenheim Fellowship in 2008. She is Professor of Poetry and Poetics at the University of California, San Diego. *Laura Sims* is the author of two books of poems: Practice, Restraint, winner of the 2005 Fence Books Alberta Prize, and Stranger, forthcoming fro= m Fence Books in 2009. Her book reviews and essays have appeared in Boston Review, New England Review, Rain Taxi, and The Review of Contemporary Fiction, and she has recently published poems in the journals Denver Quarterly, Colorado Review, CAB/NET, and Crayon. She lives in Brooklyn, New York, and teaches writing at Baruch College in Manhattan. --=20 Samantha Giles Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center sptraffic.org smallpresstraffic.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 16:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: New website! & upcoming events at The Poetry Project Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We are very excited to announce the launch of our new website at http://poetryproject.org/. You will now be able to do things like subscribe to The Poetry Project Newsletter, make donations and become a Member - all online. In addition, we have added more content like photo galleries, reading reports, poems, and a Project blog. The site is still a work-in-progress, so we encourage you to check back often to see what we=B9re up to. Also, our email address is now Info@poetryproject.org. Upcoming events: Friday, March 6, 10 PM Ellie Ga & Marina Temkina: Ugly Duckling Presse Book Release Party Ellie Ga=B9s projects explore the limits of photographic documentation. Her work spans a variety of mediums, often incorporating her exploratory writing, and generally culminating in lectures, slide-presentations, handmade books and instructional installations. Classification of a Spit Stain (Ugly Duckling Presse, 2009) is the result of her two-year project photographing and analyzing stains on city pavements. A combination of urba= n flaneurie and garbology, Classification of a Spit Stain is a mysterious field guide to the landscape underneath the soles of our shoes. For the Poetry Project Friday Night Series, Ellie will present =B3The Catalogue of th= e Lost (and other revelations)=B2 a work done in the lecture format, created during a residency at the Explorers Club (NYC). Comprised of 282 images and lasting approximately 28 minutes, this work focuses on the missing pieces o= f early exploration=ADlost places, people, and concepts as well as the successe= s and failures to document =B3the unknown.=B2 During 2007-2008, Ellie Ga was the artist-in-residence on the Tara, a polar schooner locked in the pack-ice of the Arctic Ocean. Her work from these projects were exhibited recently at the Konstmuseum in Malmo, Galerie du Jour in Paris, and Projekt 0047 in Osl= o and PNCA in Portland, Oregon. She has also been an artist-in-residence at the Newark Museum of Art and the Women=B9s Studio Workshop. Her performances, videos and installations have been shown in New York at Dispatch, Swiss Institute-Contemporary Art, 16 Beaver, Rubin Museum of Art and Gigantic Art Space. Ellie Ga received her MFA in photography from Hunter College in 2004 and is a founding member of Ugly Duckling Presse. Marina Temkina is a poet and an artist. She is an author of four poetry books in her native Russian, and two artists books made in collaboration with Michel Gerard & published in France. Her new book What Do You Want? will be published by Ugly Ducklin= g Presse this spring. Marina received a National Endowment for the Arts in 1994 and she was a Revson Fellow on the Future of New York at Columbia University. Marina shows her visual art and concrete poetry internationally= . Her public art project could be seen on the Second Street Stop of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in Hoboken in 2004. Monday, March 9, 6 PM Urban Word for NYC Teens Urban Word NYC=B9s 11th Annual Teen Poetry Slam brings out the top teen poets from across the city. Poets will compete for a chance to perform at the Grand Slam Finals at the Apollo Theater on April 4th, and represent NYC at the National Teen Poetry Slam in Chicago. This event is FREE for teen performers, and features special guest poets and DJs. Teen poets, emcees & spoken word artists sign up now at: signup@urbanwordnyc.org Come to watch and support: $5 teens/$7 adults. Wednesday, March 11, 8 PM Rob Halpern & Peter Lamborn Wilson Rob Halpern is the author of Rumored Place, Imaginary Politics, Snow Sensitive Skin (a collaboration with Taylor Brady), and Disaster Suites. Music for Porn is forthcoming. He=B9s currently co-editing the poems of the late Frances Jaffer together with Kathleen Fraser, and translating the earl= y essays of Georges Perec, the first which, =B3For a Realist Literature,=B2 appears in the Chicago Review. An active participant in the Nonsite Collective, Rob lives in San Francisco. Peter Lamborn Wilson is a political writer, essayist, and poet, known for first proposing the concept of the Temporary Autonomous Zone (TAZ), based on a historical review of pirate utopias. His latest books are Green Hermeticism: Alchemy and Ecology (with Christopher Bamford and Kevin Townley - Lindisfarne, 2007) and Black Fez Manifesto (Autonomedia, 2008). Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.org/become-a-member Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.org/program-calendar The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.org www.poetryproject.org Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.org. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 12:27:13 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090304150520.02af2288@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii the article opened an old Elizabeth Bishop wound, mentioning her as Lowell's more talented, though less ambitious contemporary. Bishop, skilled, but not terribly interesting. What does she write about? What does she write about that's of any interest to, ugh, most readers? Btw, I prefer a list that includes Duncan, Creeley and Guest to the few mainstream (not terribly interesting) names I brought up. --- On Wed, 3/4/09, charles alexander wrote: > From: charles alexander > Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 5:09 PM > Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not > Lowell, either. > > Charles Olson > Robert Duncan > Robert Creeley > Lorine Niedecker > Barbara Guest > Alice Notley > Jackson Mac Low > Beverly Dahlen > > But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone > out. Or several someones. Let's just say the above, > certainly, and some others. > > At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: > > What do we assume greatness looks like? > > > > David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, > February 22. I'm late getting to this article. > > > > Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of > America edition of his works published during his lifetime. > After Ashberry and his generation, who/ & what/ is > great?? > > > > Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious > candidate, a poet ambitious enough to be considered great. > I'd include Berryman and Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. > Anyone else?? > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept > all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Charles Alexander > Chax Press > 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 > Tucson, AZ 85705-8332 > > 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) > 520-275-4330 (cell) > chax@theriver.com > > http://chax.org > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all > posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:47:58 -0800 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Greatness/Mathmaticians vs. poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mathmaticians may have more candidates (Greatness) than poets: no such thing as a postmodern proof. K Godel Ramanujen, didn't spell the name of the great, self taught, Indian mathmatician, the most gifted, according to the heavy weights, although he didn't offer any formal proofs. P Erdos B Russell A Wiles (Andrew Wiles, offered proof/ Fermat's famous equation) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:50:08 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Evan Munday Subject: Reminder: Lisa Robertson & Rae Armantrout at Moe's - March 7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Dear friends, Just a quick reminder that the incredible Lisa Robertson will read at =20= Moe's Books on Saturday, March 7, with Rae Armantrout, and it should =20 be a stellar reading from two acclaimed and innovative writers. Lisa Robertson will launch her brand-new book, Lisa Robertson's =20 Magenta Soul Whip (Coach House Books). Composed of previously =20 uncollected verses, essays, confessions, reports, translations, =20 drafts, treatises, laments and utopias from the past fifteen years, =20 Lisa Robertson=92s Magenta Soul Whip presents a window into the workings = =20 of what The Village Voice calls the =91seductive intellect=92 of one of =20= today=92s most diverse and daring authors. Robertson will read fat historic Moe=92s Books with influential West =20 Coast poet Rae Armantrout, who will read from Versed (Wesleyan Press). Lisa Robertson and Rae Armantrout at Moe's Saturday, March 7, 7:30 pm Moe=92s Books, 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley, CA Free Thanks! We hope to see you there this Saturday! http://www.chbooks.com *** About Lisa Robertson=92s Magenta Soul Whip: Lisa Robertson writes poems that mine the past =96 its ideas, its =20 personages, its syntax =96 to construct a lexicon of the future. Her =20 poems both court and cuckold subjectivity by unmasking its fundament =20 of sex and hesitancy, the coil of doubt in its certitude. Reading her =20= laments and utopias, we realize that language =96 whiplike =96 casts = ahead =20 of itself a fortuitous form. The form brims here pleasurably with =20 dogs, movie stars, broths, painting=92s detritus, Latin and pillage. =20 Erudite and startling, the poems in Lisa Robertson=92s Magenta Soul =20 Whip, occasional works written over the past fifteen years collected =20 by Elisa Sampedrin, turn vestige into architecture, chagrin into =20 resplendence. In them, we recognize our grand, saddened century. Praise for Lisa Robertson: =91For [Robertson] all things provoke acts of attention, and hospitable =20= ones at that: sentences play around and about, on sidewalks or =20 ladders, in gardens and sheds, through strawberry patches, over and =20 under tentative city plans with which to relineate our own lives.=92 =96 = =20 The Believer Canadian poet and essayist Lisa Robertson is currently artist-in-=20 residence at California College of the Arts. Her books include =20 XEclogue, Debbie: An Epic, The Men, The Weather and Occasional Works =20 and Seven Walks from the Office for Soft Architecture. A frequent =20 collaborator across genres and media, she is currently making a video =20= with the Vancouver artist Allyson Clay and Nathalie Stephens and =20 constructing new works in digital sound with poet Stacy Doris. Best, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 10:24:49 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Subject: Micharel McClure, David Meltzer, Michael Rothenberg at Petaluma Arts Center March 28 Comments: To: Michael Comments: cc: Michael MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends,=20 Here is the info on the big reading coming up. Please send notice to = your friends and mailing lists. It will be a very cool event. Hope to = see you there!! Love, Michael R. Saturday, March 28, Petaluma Arts Center 6:30 - 8:00pm - "Reading by Beat Poets": Michael McClure, David Meltzer = & Michael Rothenberg Admission: sliding scale $5-$10, no one turned away. Tickets for all PAC Live! events may be purchased at the door starting = one half-hour before the performance or event. All events take place at = the Petaluma Arts Center, 230 Lakeville St., at E. Washington (enter on = E. Washington). =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 09:44:03 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Subject: Kelly Writers House now on twitter Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We at KWH invite you to follow the Kelly Writers House now on Twitter: https://twitter.com/kellywritershse KWH tweets will include announcements of upcoming events, links to audio and video, special selections from 14 years of Writers House programs and events. Al Filreis http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Orr in the NY Times incorrectly cited Ashbery as the first living aut= hor to be published in the Library of America series. And Orr was perhaps, = in knee-jerk fashion, repeating (he should have known better) an arts-in-b= rief entry of some weeks earlier in the Times that said the same thing. Bel= ow is a letter I wrote in response to the Orr article. Samuel Menashe was t= he first living poet to be published by the Library of America, and Orr act= ually reviewed the book! Oh well. Here's the letter: 22 February 2009 The Editor The New York Times Book Review letters@nytimes.com Dear Editor, With all due respect to David Orr, whose articles I always enjoy, his On Po= etry piece ("The Greatness[ness] Game") in today's Book Review begins incor= rectly and I would say unfairly; he writes that "John Ashbery became the fi= rst poet to have an edition of his works released by the Library of America= in his own lifetime." That honor actually belongs to Samuel Menashe, who w= as the first recipient of the Poetry Foundation's prestigious Neglected Mas= ters Award and consequently whose book, New and Selected Poems, was publish= ed by the Library of America in 2005. Menashe is still very much alive. I find it remarkable that Mr. Orr wrote an article in your pages ("A 'Negle= cted' Master," 19 March 2006) about Menashe's award and subsequent publicat= ion. Ashbery has been showered with a great many accolades, well deserved, = and thus the irony of the echo chamber Mr. Orr and perhaps others at the Ne= w York Times seem to be trapped in. Menashe has been recognized, has been h= onored, but he certainly deserves wider recognition; his poetry should be r= ead by more people who I suppose depend on publications like the Book Revie= w to acquaint them with what's worth their time to read. Sincerely yours, Dr. Burt Kimmelman, Professor of English and Chair Department of Humanities New Jersey Institute of Technology Newark, New Jersey 07102-1982 973.596.3376 (p); 973.642.4689 (f) kimmelman@njit.edu http://web.njit.edu/~kimmelma On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:09 PM, charles alexander wrote: > Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. > > Charles Olson > Robert Duncan > Robert Creeley > Lorine Niedecker > Barbara Guest > Alice Notley > Jackson Mac Low > Beverly Dahlen > > But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone out. Or several > someones. Let's just say the above, certainly, and some others. > > At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: >> What do we assume greatness looks like? >> >> David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. >> I'm late getting to this article. >> >> Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of >> his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his >> generation, who/ & what/ is great?? >> >> Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet >> ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman and >> Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:10:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! In-Reply-To: <785939.79918.qm@web46213.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow, I might be overwhelmed if I knew what you=20 were getting at. I guess the point is that almost=20 all societies do certain things. There's a bias=20 here that's I think more essential than whatever=20 you're trying to demonstrate (natural law,=20 maybe?), towards noticing, or extracting,=20 universals, rather than noticing difference. Most=20 of your catalogue involves survival needs, and=20 one could say that most societies most of the=20 time are interested in surviving. A given, but=20 not a very high order of commonality. How those=20 needs are expressed are so wildly various that=20 they're often unrecognizable as part of the same categories. From this generalizing tendency come Jung,=20 Campbell, and Eliade, all, interestingly,=20 fellow-travelers of the nazis (actually, Eliade=20 was considerably more). At the core of their=20 fanciful constructions (I mean, Campbell, at what=20 useful level of generalization does every=20 depiction of a mother and child mean the same=20 thing?) is a profound understanding of human=20 needs, which could be summarized as "man gotta eat, man gotta fuck." You might try reading more widely in anthropology. As to incest. 1. other animals also display an=20 incest taboo, though often expressed differently.=20 2. unless there's a recessive gene in common=20 mating between parents and children or sibs=20 carries no genetic danger for the offspring. 3.=20 cousin marriage, which in most places is neither=20 taboo nor illegal, also limits the gene=20 pool--note the concentration of hemophilia in=20 European royalty. So the incest taboo is only=20 very weakly tied to genetics. But in most=20 societies incest distorts family structure in=20 unacceptable ways, and the taboo is structured to=20 avoid that distortion. Westermarck rather proves=20 the point--he's not describing an aversion to=20 incest, but to mating among playmates. Enough of this. Reductions of human complexity tend to make me itch all= over. Mark At 10:28 AM 3/5/2009, you wrote: >Your example of the Na of China only proves the=20 >point of the Westermarck Effect -- something=20 >which is in fact strongest in humans, very weak=20 >in chimpanzees, and nonexistent in other=20 >mammals. Read also about the failure of minor=20 >marriages in SE Asia and children raised in=20 >Israeli Kibbuzim. WIth all human behaviors,=20 >there are strong tendencies, but they can be=20 >overridden. The effect seems much stronger in=20 >females than in males and, as you noted, exists=20 >when children are raised together below a=20 >certain age. One would have to look at the age=20 >disparities in your example of higher sibling=20 >incest to see if the Westermarck Effect is being=20 >violated. Other than the Westermarck Effect,=20 >these are the human universals (which aren't=20 >weakly expressed): age-grading, athletic sports,=20 >bodily adornment, calendar, cleanliness=20 >training, community organization, cooking,=20 >cooperative labor, cosmology, courtship,=20 >dancing, decorative art, divination, division of=20 >labor, dream interpretation, education,=20 >eschatology, ethics, ethno-botany, etiquette,=20 >faith healing, family feasting, fire-making,=20 >folklore, food taboos, funeral rites, games,=20 >gestures, gift-giving, government, greetings,=20 >hair styles, hospitality, housing, hygiene,=20 >incest taboos, inheritance rules, joking, kin=20 >groups, kinship nomenclature, language, law,=20 >luck superstitions, magic, marriage, mealtimes,=20 >medicine, obstetrics, penal sanctions, personal=20 >names, population policy, postnatal care,=20 >pregnancy usages, property rights, propitiation=20 >of supernatural beings, puberty customs,=20 >religious ritual, residence rules, sexual=20 >restrictions, soul concepts, status=20 >differentiation, surgery, tool-making, trade,=20 >visiting, weather control, weaving, combat, gifts, mime, > friendship, lying, love, storytelling, murder=20 > taboos, narrative, selecting, classification,=20 > musical meter, tempo, rhythm, tone, melody,=20 > harmony, pattern recognition, giving meaning to=20 > certain color combinations, hypothesis,=20 > metaphysical synthesis, collecting, metaphor,=20 > syntactical organization, gymnastics, the=20 > martial arts, mapping, the capacity for=20 > geometry and ideography, poetic meter, cuisine,=20 > and massage. Troy Camplin=20 > ________________________________ From: Mark=20 > Weiss To:=20 > POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday,=20 > March 4, 2009 9:26:18 PM Subject: Re: The=20 > Market recognizes talent! You like broad=20 > generalizations, which would be tricky even if=20 > you were more careful. Case in point: the=20 > Westermarck Effect. Westermarck observed, and=20 > subsequent research has confirmed, that=20 > children who live together until age 6 are=20 > unlikely to be sexually attracted to each=20 > other, even if they're not=20 > biologically-related. Siblings raised apart=20 > until age 6 exhibit no such "natural"=20 > inhibition. And sibling incest remains more=20 > common than parent-child incest. The inhibition=20 > appears to be fairly weak. All societies we=20 > know of have definitions of incest and rules=20 > forbidding it. The rules vary, as do ideas=20 > about who one's relatives are. Among the Na, an=20 > ethnic minority in China, for instance,=20 > families are defined as offspring of the same=20 > mother, and siblings live together and raise=20 > any children communally, the brothers acting as=20 > father. There's in theory no sex within the=20 > home or the sibling group. Otherwise, men and=20 > women are free to sleep with whoever, and do so=20 > enthusiastically and without stricture. Since=20 > nobody knows who their father is a lot of=20 > incest in our terms happens. It's simply not an=20 > issue for the Na. (See Clifford Geertz, "The=20 > Visit," his review of Cai Hua, _A Society=20 > Without Fathers: The Na of China (Zone Books,=20 > 2001), in NYRB Volume 48, Number 16 =B7 October=20 > 18, 2001.) The point being that despite=20 > centuries of argument about natural laws there=20 > seem to be very few; human behavior is simply=20 > too various. I'm curious as to why you insist=20 > on playing Horatius at the bridge. Difficult=20 > for me to understand what pleasure there'd be=20 > in it. Mark > The laws the government creates=20 > are typically just only when they reflect rules=20 > that have arisen naturally -- such as laws=20 > against incest that reflect our natural=20 > aversion known as the Westermarck Effect.=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics=20 > List is moderated & does not accept all posts.=20 > Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:= http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept=20 >all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info:=20 >http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 10:36:16 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "2009 Workshop Retreats at The Millay Colony for the =". Rest of header flushed. From: Cara Benson Subject: Millay Colony Workshop Retreats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Listees,=0A=A0=0A2009 Workshop Retreats=A0at The Millay Colony for the = Arts=0A=0ASchedule as follows:=0A=0APoetry & Pop-Music with Chris Stroffoli= no: April 29 to May 3=0APoetry Writing as Self-Translation with Tom=E1s Ura= yo=E1n Noel: May 29 to June 1=0ATrans-Experiential Playwriting Workshop wit= h Chiori Miyagawa: June 27 to June 31=0APainting Workshop: Mixed Media Work= s on Paper with Jason Middlebrook: July 30 to Aug 2=0AVideo Workshop: Adapt= ation & Collaboration with Bernadine Mellis: Aug 29 to Sept 1=0AWriting Wor= kshop: Call & Response with Eleni Sikelianos: October 1 to October 4=0AThe = Art of Critical Writing: Frances Richard: October 29 to November 2=0A=0AReg= istration is limited to six participants per workshop. =0A=A0=0AGo to http:= //www.millaycolony.org/workshops.html=0Afor workshop descriptions, instruct= or bios and application information.=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:00:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cara Benson Subject: Millay Colony Workshop Retreats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He= (ACK! Sorry for the double list...goofed the url the first time)=0A=0A=0AHe= y Listees,=0A=A0=0A2009 Workshop Retreats=A0at The Millay Colony for the Ar= ts=0A=0ASchedule as follows:=0A=0APoetry & Pop-Music with Chris Stroffolino= : April 29 to May 3=0APoetry Writing as Self-Translation with Tom=E1s Urayo= =E1n Noel: May 29 to June 1=0ATrans-Experiential Playwriting Workshop with = Chiori Miyagawa: June 27 to June 31=0APainting Workshop: Mixed Media Works = on Paper with Jason Middlebrook: July 30 to Aug 2=0AVideo Workshop: Adaptat= ion & Collaboration with Bernadine Mellis: Aug 29 to Sept 1=0AWriting Works= hop: Call & Response with Eleni Sikelianos: October 1 to October 4=0AThe Ar= t of Critical Writing: Frances Richard: October 29 to November 2=0A=0ARegis= tration is limited to six participants per workshop. =0A=A0=0AGo to http://= www.millaycolony.org/workshops =0Afor workshop descriptions, instructor bio= s and application information.=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:12:34 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ________________________________ On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:09 PM, charles alexander wrote: > Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. > > Charles Olson > Robert Duncan > Robert Creeley > Lorine Niedecker > Barbara Guest > Alice Notley > Jackson Mac Low > Beverly Dahlen This is a good start, though I'd certainly have WCW on the list. Question: Am facilitating a six week course and would love to have examples from these poets (or other NAP or Neo-Baroque, or other experimental poets) regarding powerful IMAGERY. Any takers? Paul Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio SPLAB! American Sentences Organic Poetry Poetry Postcard Blog Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 12:25:36 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point of the list is that it shows there are in fact universals. Yes, t= hey do get expressed in different ways, but in our obsession with differenc= e, we too often forget that there are also unities. There is unity in varie= ty, and variety in unity. The one does not negate the other. Think about th= e universal or "religion" -- does that restrict variety? If the number of r= eligions and their expressions throughout human history is any indication, = hardly. In fact, it has create a wider variety of behaviors in humans than = exist in nonreligious primates like chimpanzees. In your fear of generalizi= ng, don't throw out the baby with the bath water. And don't think that univ= ersals means lack of variety. It in fact means quite the contrary, if you u= nderstand the unity-variety aspect of behavior.=0A=0AI'm of the opinion tha= t more anthropologists need to know more about their own cultures and about= other cultures. That ignorance has been a driving force in their claims of= un-unified variety.=0A=0AYou are correct that the Westermarck Effect does = in fact prevent attempts at breeding between "close playmates," if you will= .. That doesn't disprove anything, though. A generalized tendency in this re= spect make more sense than something far more complex that results in highe= r accuracy. In fact, in more primitive situations, the correlation between = playmate and close relative was so high as to be essentially the same, mean= ing the evolution of the Westermarck Effect as it is made perfect sense. I'= m not entirely sure what you're objecting to. Since the correlation between= close playmates and close relatives was essentially identical in our evolu= tionary past, go with the easier tendency. Again, this gets translated up i= nto cultural and then legal incest prohibitions. The addition of cousins is= in fact a more recent cultural innovation in only a few cultures, where it= has become understood in a more abstract level what being "related" really= means, in a larger genetic sense.=0A=0AThis isn't about reductions of human complexity, but o= f understanding humans in their full complexity. Positing that we have insu= rmountable differences is both false and a barrier to understanding each ot= her as human beings. =0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________= ________=0AFrom: Mark Weiss =0ATo: POETICS@LISTSERV= ..BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, March 6, 2009 10:10:23 AM=0ASubject: Re: The M= arket recognizes talent!=0A=0AWow, I might be overwhelmed if I knew what yo= u were getting at. I guess the point is that almost all societies do certai= n things. There's a bias here that's I think more essential than whatever y= ou're trying to demonstrate (natural law, maybe?), towards noticing, or ext= racting, universals, rather than noticing difference. Most of your catalogu= e involves survival needs, and one could say that most societies most of th= e time are interested in surviving. A given, but not a very high order of c= ommonality. How those needs are expressed are so wildly various that they'r= e often unrecognizable as part of the same categories.=0A=0AFrom this gener= alizing tendency come Jung, Campbell, and Eliade, all, interestingly, fello= w-travelers of the nazis (actually, Eliade was considerably more). At the c= ore of their fanciful constructions (I mean, Campbell, at what useful level= of generalization does every depiction of a mother and child mean the same= thing?) is a profound understanding of human needs, which could be summari= zed as "man gotta eat, man gotta fuck."=0A=0AYou might try reading more wid= ely in anthropology.=0A=0AAs to incest. 1. other animals also display an in= cest taboo, though often expressed differently. 2. unless there's a recessi= ve gene in common mating between parents and children or sibs carries no ge= netic danger for the offspring. 3. cousin marriage, which in most places is= neither taboo nor illegal, also limits the gene pool--note the concentrati= on of hemophilia in European royalty. So the incest taboo is only very weak= ly tied to genetics. But in most societies incest distorts family structure= in unacceptable ways, and the taboo is structured to avoid that distortion= .. Westermarck rather proves the point--he's not describing an aversion to i= ncest, but to mating among playmates.=0A=0AEnough of this. Reductions of hu= man complexity tend to make me itch all over.=0A=0AMark=0A=0AAt 10:28 AM 3/= 5/2009, you wrote:=0A> Your example of the Na of China only proves the poin= t of the Westermarck Effect -- something which is in fact strongest in huma= ns, very weak in chimpanzees, and nonexistent in other mammals. Read also a= bout the failure of minor marriages in SE Asia and children raised in Israe= li Kibbuzim. WIth all human behaviors, there are strong tendencies, but the= y can be overridden. The effect seems much stronger in females than in male= s and, as you noted, exists when children are raised together below a certa= in age. One would have to look at the age disparities in your example of hi= gher sibling incest to see if the Westermarck Effect is being violated. Oth= er than the Westermarck Effect, these are the human universals (which aren'= t weakly expressed): age-grading, athletic sports, bodily adornment, calend= ar, cleanliness training, community organization, cooking, cooperative labo= r, cosmology, courtship, dancing, decorative art, divination, division of l= abor, dream interpretation, education, eschatology, ethics, ethno-botany, etiquette, f= aith healing, family feasting, fire-making, folklore, food taboos, funeral = rites, games, gestures, gift-giving, government, greetings, hair styles, ho= spitality, housing, hygiene, incest taboos, inheritance rules, joking, kin = groups, kinship nomenclature, language, law, luck superstitions, magic, mar= riage, mealtimes, medicine, obstetrics, penal sanctions, personal names, po= pulation policy, postnatal care, pregnancy usages, property rights, propiti= ation of supernatural beings, puberty customs, religious ritual, residence = rules, sexual restrictions, soul concepts, status differentiation, surgery,= tool-making, trade, visiting, weather control, weaving, combat, gifts, mim= e,=0A> friendship, lying, love, storytelling, murder taboos, narrative, se= lecting, classification, musical meter, tempo, rhythm, tone, melody, harmon= y, pattern recognition, giving meaning to certain color combinations, hypot= hesis, metaphysical synthesis, collecting, metaphor, syntactical organizati= on, gymnastics, the martial arts, mapping, the capacity for geometry and id= eography, poetic meter, cuisine, and massage. Troy Camplin ________________= ________________ From: Mark Weiss To: POETICS@LIST= SERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 9:26:18 PM Subject: Re: The= Market recognizes talent! You like broad generalizations, which would be t= ricky even if you were more careful. Case in point: the Westermarck Effect.= Westermarck observed, and subsequent research has confirmed, that children= who live together until age 6 are unlikely to be sexually attracted to eac= h other, even if they're not biologically-related. Siblings raised apart until age 6 exhibit no such "natural" inhibition. And sibling incest remai= ns more common than parent-child incest. The inhibition appears to be fairl= y weak. All societies we know of have definitions of incest and rules forbi= dding it. The rules vary, as do ideas about who one's relatives are. Among = the Na, an ethnic minority in China, for instance, families are defined as = offspring of the same mother, and siblings live together and raise any chil= dren communally, the brothers acting as father. There's in theory no sex wi= thin the home or the sibling group. Otherwise, men and women are free to sl= eep with whoever, and do so enthusiastically and without stricture. Since n= obody knows who their father is a lot of incest in our terms happens. It's = simply not an issue for the Na. (See Clifford Geertz, "The Visit," his rev= iew of Cai Hua, _A Society Without Fathers: The Na of China (Zone Books, 20= 01), in NYRB Volume 48, Number 16 =B7 October 18, 2001.) The point being that despite centuries of argument about natural laws there seem to = be very few; human behavior is simply too various. I'm curious as to why yo= u insist on playing Horatius at the bridge. Difficult for me to understand = what pleasure there'd be in it. Mark > The laws the government creates are = typically just only when they reflect rules that have arisen naturally -- s= uch as laws against incest that reflect our natural aversion known as the W= estermarck Effect. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is modera= ted & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://= epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> =0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guide= lines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A=0A= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not acce= pt all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poe= tics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:37:23 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Dillon Subject: Re: Ashberry: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It should be pointed out that the Menashe volume is in a different series than the Ashbery volume. Menashe is in the "American Poets Project" published by the Library of America. The Ashbery volume is part of the "Library of America" main series, in which each book is assigned a very spiffy number. On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Kimmelman, Burt wrote: > David Orr in the NY Times incorrectly cited Ashbery as the first living > author to be published in the Library of America series. And Orr was > perhaps, in knee-jerk fashion, repeating (he should have known better) an > arts-in-brief entry of some weeks earlier in the Times that said the same > thing. Below is a letter I wrote in response to the Orr article. Samuel > Menashe was the first living poet to be published by the Library of America, > and Orr actually reviewed the book! Oh well. > > Here's the letter: > > > 22 February 2009 > > The Editor > The New York Times Book Review > letters@nytimes.com > > Dear Editor, > > With all due respect to David Orr, whose articles I always enjoy, his On > Poetry piece ("The Greatness[ness] Game") in today's Book Review begins > incorrectly and I would say unfairly; he writes that "John Ashbery became > the first poet to have an edition of his works released by the Library of > America in his own lifetime." That honor actually belongs to Samuel Menashe, > who was the first recipient of the Poetry Foundation's prestigious Neglected > Masters Award and consequently whose book, New and Selected Poems, was > published by the Library of America in 2005. Menashe is still very much > alive. > > I find it remarkable that Mr. Orr wrote an article in your pages ("A > 'Neglected' Master," 19 March 2006) about Menashe's award and subsequent > publication. Ashbery has been showered with a great many accolades, well > deserved, and thus the irony of the echo chamber Mr. Orr and perhaps others > at the New York Times seem to be trapped in. Menashe has been recognized, > has been honored, but he certainly deserves wider recognition; his poetry > should be read by more people who I suppose depend on publications like the > Book Review to acquaint them with what's worth their time to read. > > Sincerely yours, > > Dr. Burt Kimmelman, Professor of English and Chair > Department of Humanities > New Jersey Institute of Technology > Newark, New Jersey 07102-1982 > 973.596.3376 (p); 973.642.4689 (f) > kimmelman@njit.edu > http://web.njit.edu/~kimmelma > > > > > > On Mar 4, 2009, at 5:09 PM, charles alexander wrote: > > > Not the ones you've chosen, not for me at least. Not Lowell, either. > > > > Charles Olson > > Robert Duncan > > Robert Creeley > > Lorine Niedecker > > Barbara Guest > > Alice Notley > > Jackson Mac Low > > Beverly Dahlen > > > > But I start on a list, and I know I'll leave someone out. Or several > > someones. Let's just say the above, certainly, and some others. > > > > At 03:03 PM 3/3/2009, you wrote: > >> What do we assume greatness looks like? > >> > >> David Orr poses this question in the NYT book review, February 22. > >> I'm late getting to this article. > >> > >> Ashberry is the first poet to have a Library of America edition of > >> his works published during his lifetime. After Ashberry and his > >> generation, who/ & what/ is great?? > >> > >> Orr mentions Robert Lowell as the last obvious candidate, a poet > >> ambitious enough to be considered great. I'd include Berryman and > >> Merwin. Perhaps Roethke. Anyone else?? > >> > >> > >> > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:56:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Ashbery: The Greatness Game/NYTimes... Comments: To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <67746.40837.qm@web52411.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I just wanted to make a subject line with the poet's name right. > > George Satisfied with his undergarments. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:40:44 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <315351.44720.qm@web46212.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Troy, "our art and literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being influenced by the French theorists." Why does almost every statement you make must involve the putting down of another? Are you aware how ridiculous that statements sounds. How much of American literature, do you thing, is influenced by "French theorists"? Or how much of French literature is influence by "French theorists" for that matter? What is a French theorist anyhow? To indulge in some name calling myself, are you aware demonizing the other is the basic mode of Fascist thought, regardless how much libertarian, you might image, means liberty. Ciao, Murat On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Troy Camplin wrote= : > I do believe I can make better judgments than any government administrato= r, > yes. Especially if they are working in their capacity of government > administrator. Impersonal judgment is no judgment. As for people on the > listserv, I believe my judgment is better than some, the same as others, = and > likely worse than a few -- but we are free to have those differences, tha= t > those who agree that my judgments are better or the same as theirs can > support my nonprofit, and those who disagree can contribute to one (or st= art > their own) that better reflects their own taste. The point is that such > actions would be voluntary. > > Personally, I've seen no evidence that France or Canada is turning out > superior artists, though I have n o doubt that the French and the French > Canadians certainly think so. I will admit, though, that our art and > literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being influenced by th= e > French theorists. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Fran=E7ois Luong > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:23:06 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > The market already drives more than one art form. As many people > Troy, > > The market already drives more than one art form. As many people have > pointed out, the majority of the music industry is driven by the free mar= ket > at a global level. Is the music industry any more equitable than other > government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed out, the only thing t= hat > is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made quickly, sold for a lot = of > money," an argument you completely disregarded in your response to her. > > You also fail to show how a "nonprofit organization such as yours" would = be > a better way to fund the arts. Are you implying you have better taste tha= n > government administrators and/or anyone else on this listserv? Do I belie= ve > that "my" people would be in charge of a government art funding program? > Certainly not. Even though Canada and France have much better funding > programs than the United States, they still have their faults. Does that > mean we should scrap them? Well, they have certainly contributed to Canad= ian > arts and poetry being more interesting than the majority of US arts. > > Finally, many of the programs you are listed had already been enacted > before Hitler's rise to power. National health care had for example been > implemented by Bismarck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) and > unemployment compensation in 1927 at the national level. The L=E4ndern ha= d > their own programs before it was made a federal law. > > fran=E7ois luong > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:42:35 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Much of the great monuments were in fact made with slave labor? Does that > then argue for slave labor for other massive works? Yes, many of our grea= t > works of art were government-funded, and government funds come from someb= ody > with power having enough power to take money from weaker people. To me, t= hat > argues against that method, no matter how successful it has been in the > past. It's not magical thinking to believe there better, non-coercive way= s > to fund the arts, and that we should try to use and develop those. The > market is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and can be > another. Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of government= . > > And fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is corporate > socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for everyone here. There > are different kinds of socialism, you know -- it doesn't have to be > communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's version looked like: he suspen= ded > the gold standard, embarked on huge public works programs like Autobahns, > protected industry from foreign competition, expanded credit, instituted > jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices and production > decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital controls, > instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about national hea= lth > care and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and eventua= lly > ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the kind of economy our governm= ent > has been actively trying to set up for a while now, though it's been > accelerating quite a bit of late.. > > Those who support government funding of the arts naively think that they > will always have their people in charge and that therefore they will be t= he > ones getting the funding. But you can't count on being in charge in a > democratic country -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. I prefer= to > keep the government out of the arts completely, so there is far less dang= er > of coercion or censorship -- direct or indirect. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Fran=E7ois Luong > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to learn > what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do that education= , > Troy? The marketing department? I think we already have such situation. I > mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because they have a > bigger marketing department than say, New Model Army? > > In all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. There is = no > account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free market. What = you > base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonable, two, that > reason will lead them toward goodness. There are however no evidence for > this assertion, much like there is no evidence for the free market being > able to nurture art as we understand it. In the contrary, state-funded ar= t > goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, for > example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of France? An > example of an artistic situation within a free market context? Try German= y > in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in their name does n= ot > make them socialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp proves it= ), > with the painters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted because their > art was not marketable to the German populace. > > fran=E7ois luong > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Troy Camplin > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > You only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in agreemen= t > with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm looking for in hig= h > art. What you missed was what came after the comma. The market also allow= s > for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good and what is = not > good. The same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would be > terribly disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he went to > visit. There is a difference between what people like in a general sort o= f > way and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. My wife, for > example, thinks that opera is literally the best way to spend an evening. > But she also listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my posting, you > will note that I differentiate between what the market does in allowing f= or > niches and true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the majority. In t= hat > case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is > precisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting the arts. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: John Cunningham > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker > playing > dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic merit"! > There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If it ha= d > been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the > Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of legislatio= n > ever and popular support was vastly against it. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Troy Camplin > Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The market i= s > in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the > horror > of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have access > to > works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only liste= n > to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we would > only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing > something > along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I > listen > to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons why= I > set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of the ar= ts > -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; > collectivist egalitarianism, no. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Marcus Bales > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free > market > is a good > judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an > untenable position: > he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and that > some people > can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one that > will get him in a > lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy as an > equality-hater. > Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than > others, > or some > poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! > > You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? > > Marcus > > > On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: > > Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 > Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > > From: Paul Nelson > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich > > Troy, > > > > Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false > > dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was > > only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good judge > > of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have > > responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. > > > > What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can > > actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of > > the gift economy. > > > > from Wikipedia: > > > > > > A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are > > given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid > > pro quo. > > Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and > > redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered > > a > > form of reciprocal altruism. > > The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned > > economy or a market or barter economy. > > In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by > > explicit > > command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or > > market > > economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some > > other commodity - is established before the transaction takes > > place. > > > > Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a > > different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as > > Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have social > > safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without > > becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. > > > > I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending, > > starting with the outlays for militarism: > > > > > > Again Wiki: > > > > > > As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 > > trillion annually on defense-related purposes. > > > > Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved > > areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a > > bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes much > > less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and > > I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs > > FREE MARKET, little light is generated. > > > > Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling > > about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and > > Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free > > Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway, > > the mission of this listserv. May it be so. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > Global Voices Radio > > SPLAB! > > American Sentences > > Organic Poetry > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Troy Camplin > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." > > The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an > > imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a > > wide variety of options. The government does not give you options. > > It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like > > government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car? > > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub, > > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be > > government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > > support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone > > deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't > > think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom > > you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or > > should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by > > democratic vote? How many here write anything a > > democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar > > problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the > > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? > > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to > > give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are > > already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they > > are not successful, how does the government determine who to give > > funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what > > prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough > > really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get > > a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history > > of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other > > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the > > arts. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Paul Nelson > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > From: Troy Camplin > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > > > > One > > can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this > > list, > > mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the > > fact > > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during > > their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not > > going > > to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you > > want > > to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good > > -- > > but there's no evidence the government is good at educating people > > in > > math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have > > to > > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw > > men > > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as > > any > > guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, > > but > > when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > > Paul E. Nelson > > > > Global Voices Radio > > SPLAB! > > American Sentences > > Organic Poetry > > Poetry Postcard Blog > > > > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date: > > 2/22/2009 12:00 AM > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: DW Subject: Ideas for Topics for MSA 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In keeping with the theme, "the languages of modernism," I would like to propose two topics for either panels or roundtables. The first seems obvious, "the role of translation with respect to English language prosodies and experiments in language." The second, closer to my heart, "translating the language of abjection." In either instance, my preference would be to work with active translators. Your suggestions are welcome. Contact: Donald Wellman // wellman@dwc.edu // homepage . Donald Wellman Daniel Webster College http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 20:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G. L. played last summer w/ Steve Swell's Nation of We... Bowery Poetry Club... at lease one great solo... Gerald S. > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > been homeless 40 years > 1st time playing in 40 years > when did he live in europe?? > > On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:17:30 -0800 George Bowering > writes: >> I think we can be pretty sure that that propagandized guy has never >> >> heard Giuseppi Logan. >> Logan lived a lot of years in Northern Europe. >> He was wise to it. >> He is also a great musician. >> The "free" market didnt work for him, >> though it works for undressed teenagers who can't play music. >> >> >> >> gb >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> >> > Again this is ridiculous. We just came from a gig with Guiseppi >> > Logan playing - one of the major avant jazz figures of the 20th >> > century - and he's living in a shelter in Brooklyn. >> > >> > Alan >> > >> > >> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2009, teersteeg wrote: >> > >> >> The myth of the starving artist--van gogh's the most renowned-- >> >> died in the late 20th century--about the time Warhol came in with >> >> >> Pop. If you're any good as an artist--that means if you've been >> >> >> able to contribute to the development of the art form you work >> in-- >> >> you'll sell your work. Though 90%+ of artists who sell still need >> >> >> to supplement their sales by teaching--though that vocation does >> >> >> have its perks. >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> bruno >> >> cape cod >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johanna Fisher" >> >> >> >> To: >> >> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 6:53 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts >> >> >> >> >> >>> Precisely the opposite here...so many who are considered >> >>> "artists" are simply NOT and we should blithely pretend that >> they >> >>> are? I am very much aware of those people whose work was not >> >>> state sponsered as being artists. Some artists are forunate >> >>> enough not to need government support, bbut there are so many >> who >> >>> might continue to work if they did have support. And forgive me, >> >> >>> but my breath of what I consider to be the arts is vast. >> >>> Nonetheless, it would be appropriate and just to support people >> >> >>> who are devoted artists...people who eat, sleep and breathe >> their >> >>> art despite the sacrifice to do so. So much of what people in >> >>> this country call art is tied to economy. It is what sells. I >> >>> think about the great artists whose devotion to the expression >> of >> >>> that something inside, something that is inspired because the >> >>> heart was open to the possibility of being and because they >> could >> >>> not survive in a world that places too much emphasis on monetary >> >> >>> outcomes compels me to say YES!!!! to any pos >> >>> s! >> >>> ! >> >>> ibility that a supposedly civilized society wishes to establish >> >> >>> as a means of support for that expression. >> >>> I come from a family (in Europe) whose artistic voices were >> >>> silenced in 1933. Artistic freedom is one thing the people >> fought >> >>> for after the war- and its government's support for the arts. >> >> >>> Support so that perhaps they might find their humanity in the >> >>> aftermath of so much inhumanity. And yes perhaps there are no >> >>> perfect agencies-that is to say in this particular case, one >> that >> >>> would be fair and just (and YES I do believe that these are >> >>> viable attributes and I am not a REPUBLICAN nor a DEMOCRAT nor >> an >> >>> INDEPENDENT)but I still believe in my ideal world that the arts >> >> >>> should be supported not by the government but rather through it. >> >> >>> The government's only vested interest should be one that fosters >> >> >>> free expression as a means of allowing its artists to be the >> >>> voice of its people. That is what the arts should do and that >> >>> which does not do this but passes itself as art is merely what >> >> >>> Joyce said is pornagraphy. >> >>> johanna >> >>> ---- Original message ---- >> >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:59:38 -0800 >> >>>> From: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" >> >> >>>> (on behalf of Troy Camplin ) >> >>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts >> >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>>> Oh, so only artists who get grants are true artists. And, from >> >> >>>> the sounds of things, only those who get government grants. >> Nice >> >>>> to know that that's how you define an artist. I guess you leave >> >> >>>> out those who don't get grants and who get into galleries or >> get >> >>>> published. I suppose you leave out all those people in film, >> >>>> including screenplay writers, those involved in plays operas, >> >> >>>> musicals, the many musicians out there, etc. The arts are >> wildly >> >>>> successful in this country -- but only if we include the >> >>>> successful ones in our definition of what an artist is -- >> >>>> meaning, those who don't need government grants. >> >>>> Troy Camplin >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: Alan Sondheim >> >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>>> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:26:03 PM >> >>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts >> >>>> good grief, what's a "true artist" and what does it mean to "be >> >> >>>> an artist"? I'm sorry, this is ridiculous. "people who don't >> >>>> want to anything can play at making art"? Have you ever really >> >> >>>> been involved with the grant system? You think money goes to >> >>>> people who are "playing"? >> >>>> this country gives less per capita than any industrialized >> >>>> country to the arts. what really gets me infuriated about this >> >> >>>> is the number of artists I know who can't afford health care or >> >> >>>> decent housing because of lack of support. >> >>>> this is insulting. >> >>>> on any other list this would be a troll. >> >>>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Troy Camplin wrote: >> >>>>> You want the same people cutting arts education in our schools >> >> >>>>> to be in charge of the arts? >> >>>>> I have never met a true artist who couldn't be an artist due >> to >> >>>>> lack of support. All tons of government support will do is >> make >> >>>>> it so that people who don't want to do anything can play at >> >>>>> making art, reducing the quality and reputation of art and >> >>>>> artists. Further, I really do not think you want to >> democratize >> >>>>> the arts. Do you want a committee deciding if what you do is >> >> >>>>> art? Do you really want your work put up to a vote? Subject to >> >> >>>>> political pressures? This is the reality of something like >> this. >> >>>>> Troy Camplin >> >>>>> ________________________________ >> >>>>> From: Johanna Fisher >> >>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:34:18 AM >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts >> >>>>> I must respond to this kind of hysteria that ultimately >> >>>>> prevents us from making the arts what they should and could >> be, >> >>>>> that is a reflection of what is happening in our society >> (since >> >>>>> we cannot trust the media to convey anything reflectively nor >> >> >>>>> honestly) and an example of what can occur when the human >> >>>>> spirit is allowed to make itself manifest. So many artists >> > cannot BE ARTISTS because there is simply no support. I am sure >> >>>>> that the office could be developed in such a way that we would >> >> >>>>> be able to address any violations to free expression and with >> >> >>>>> careful selection/ screening of a Secretary (as we try to do >> >> >>>>> whenever any other Secretary if nominated) we could have a >> then >> >>>>> have a thriving artistic community. Certainly with all the >> cuts >> >>>>> to arts education, we cannot expect to have a group of young >> >> >>>>> people less appreciative of what the arts might do for their >> >> >>>>> lives, not the least of which is development of the >> >>>>> imagination. Perhaps this cultivation of the >> >>>>> imagination might just save us >> >>>>> ! >> >>>>> ! >> >>>>> afterall. >> >>>>> Professor Johanna Fisher >> >>>>> ---- Original message ---- >> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:01:32 -0800 >> >>>>>> From: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" >> >>>>>> (on behalf of Troy Camplin >> >>>>>> ) >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Secretary of the Arts >> >>>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>>>>> I could not disagree with such an idea more. Here's my >> >>>>>> explanation why: http://zatavu.blogspot.com/2009/02/how-to- >> >>>>>> kill-arts.html >> >>>>>> Troy Camplin >> >>>>>> ________________________________ >> >>>>>> From: Maria Damon >> >>>>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 6:50:04 PM >> >>>>>> Subject: Secretary of the Arts >> >>>>>> Quincy Jones has started a petition to ask President Obama to >> >> >>>>>> appoint a Secretary of the Arts. While many other countries >> >> >>>>>> have had Ministers of Art or Culture for centuries, The >> United >> >>>>>> States has never created such a position. Those in the arts >> >> >>>>>> need this and the country need the arts--now more than ever. >> >> >>>>>> Please take a moment to sign this important petition and then >> >> >>>>>> pass it on to your friends and colleagues. >> >>>>>> http://www.petitiononline.com/esnyc/petition.html > >>>>>> www.petitiononline.com/esnyc/petition.html> >> >>>>>> * * >> >>>>>> .. >> >>>>>> __,_._,___ >> >>>>>> ================================== >> >>>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> >>>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ >> >>>>>> poetics/welcome.html >> >>>>>> ================================== >> >>>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> >>>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ >> >>>>>> poetics/welcome.html >> >>>>> ================================== >> >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> >>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ >> >>>>> poetics/welcome.html >> >>>>> ================================== >> >>>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> >>>>> Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ >> >>>>> poetics/welcome.html >> >>>> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: >> http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> >>>> | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: >> >>>> | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 >> >>>> | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org >> >>>> | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 >> >>>> ================================== >> >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >> >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> >>>> welcome.html >> >>>> ================================== >> >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. >> Check >> >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> >>>> welcome.html >> >>> ================================== >> >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> >>> welcome.html >> >> >> >> ================================== >> >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> >> welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> > | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: >> > | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 >> > | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org >> > | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 >> > >> > ================================== >> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >> > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> > welcome.html >> > >> >> Mr. G. Bowering >> Okanagan born. >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 00:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Subject: end of reason redux with ampersand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ciccariello.viewbook.com/ampersand - Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 07:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed the days are long gone when the net was free, creative, and apparently trustworthy. some from the video mapping and some from other mapping http://www.alansondheim.org/holdme1.png http://www.alansondheim.org/holdme2.png http://www.alansondheim.org/holdme3.png http://www.alansondheim.org/holdme4.png http://www.alansondheim.org/holdme5.png at one point advertising was discouraged and there were campaigns against early violators. http://www.alansondheim.org/ ore pngs http://www.alansondheim.org/ore.mp4 now every scam in the book plays to the innocent; faced with sophisticated criminals, there's no way out for the rest of us ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 15:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 49 (2009) The Institute for Higher Study | A Poem by Oliver Rice Oliver Rice has received the Theodore Roethke Prize and twice been nominated for a Pushcart Prize. His poems have been published widely in the United States, as well as in Canada, England, Austria, Turkey, and India. His book, On Consenting To Be A Man, was published in 2008 by Cyberwit, a diversified publishing house in the cultural capital Allahabad, India. It is available from Amazon. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:34:41 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: CFP: Poetics of Presence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call for proposals for a panel submission to the Association for the Study of the Arts of the Present, first annual conference. Poetics of Presence This panel interrogates ways of making present what is temporally, spatially, and/or ontologically absent. While many contemporary "poetics of presence" have sought to radicalize Modernist critiques of the metaphysics of presence--especially by the deployment of deconstructive theories within cultural studies frameworks--utopian spiritual and political projects have been relegated to categories of benign nostalgia or oppressive, uncritical insurgence. This panel seeks fluencies between these two modes of working with and without the present: the other as the "same" as a poetics of presence deferred/differentiated from itself, another poetics it hails, calls to, invokes, etc. Proposals for presentations of work (including performance) or scholarship are welcomed from critics, philosophers, and artists of any medium. Please send one page abstract with short bio to Patrick F. Durgin: kenningeditions@gmail.com by Sat. March 21st. ASAP 1: Arts of the present (10/22-25/2009). October 22-25, 2009, Knoxville, TN. More info at http://dspacedev.sunsite.utk.edu/ocs-2.0.0-1/index.php/asap/2009/index Apologies for cross-postings. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 23:24:04 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: colin herd Subject: Fwd: Call for Submissions - Anything Anymore Anywhere Comments: To: British & Irish poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List members, Apologies if you get this twice, Best wishes, Colin. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anything Anymore Anywhere Submissions < submissions@anything-anymore-anywhere.com> Date: Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 11:16 PM Subject: Call for Submissions - Anything Anymore Anywhere To: colinjherd@googlemail.com Dear all, Anything Anymore Anywhere , a new print journal based in Edinburgh, Scotland, is now reading for its second issue, due out Summer 2009. We welcome submissions of poetry, fiction and essays. Submissions are accepted year-round, but *the deadline for inclusion in the next issue is May 1st 2009*. Please send submissions to * submissions@anything-anymore-anywhere.com. * As the name suggests, we do not wish to be prescriptive about the sort of work we receive, but it might be helpful to read this short introductionto get a sense of what we aim to achieve with the journal. We look forward to reading your submissions, Best wishes, The Editors ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 16:28:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Matt Henriksen Subject: Now Available: Narwhal (7 chapboks hand-bound in a single journal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Narwhal (seven chapbooks) Four Cities by Kazim Ali Luminal Equation by Maureen Alsop House by Sommer Browning Into the Eyes of Lost Storms by Karla Kelsey Sycorax's Retinue by Laura Goode You do damage by Kate Schapira Yellowcake by Jared White 180 pages, hand-sewn in signatures, screen-printed cover, limited edition of 100 $20 Cannibal Books flesheatingpoems.blogspot.com flesheatingpoems@gmail.com In order to meet up with demand, the offer for Cannibal Books 2009 Subscriptions will expire April 1st, 2009. Thanks to everyone who has ordered or subscribed. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:21:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Helix Magazine seeks work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CCSU's undergraduate literary journal, the Helix, is looking for work of = all kind (poetry, prose, art, criticism, plays). Will be offset printed = in a perfect bound edition of 1500 copies and distributed nationally. = Deadline for receiving work is March 12th, 2009. Send any submissions = and a brief bio to: helixmagazine@gmail.com *************** Ravi Shankar Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com Poet-in-Residence Associate Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 13:44:17 -0400 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rob McLennan Subject: new on rob's clever blog -- Ongoing notes: early March, 2009 (FROM BETROELSE TO CONFESSION, BookThug; Bus Plunge, Natalie Simpson, Olive) -- David W. McFadden, Be Calm, Honey -- an old poem embedded in thoughts on what is news -- Katy Lederer, The Heaven-Sent Leaf -- an old poem embedded in thoughts on the manx pub -- above/ground press poem broadsides -- an old poem embedded in thoughts on stephen brockwell -- In/Words Magazine & Press -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- The Capilano Review 3.7 ; LESS IS MORE: The Poetics of Erasure -- VERSE magazine, Vols. 24 + 25; -- Four novels: Bennett, Kidd, Sparling, Ondaatje -- Litmags threatened by new funding guidelines -- sentence: a journal of prose poetics -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- Paul Tyler & Shane Rhodes at the Factory Reading Series -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- Ongoing notes: early February 2009 (Gary Barwin, inverting the deer, serif of nottingham; PRECIPICe, a journal of poetry, fiction and artwork; THE FRUIT MAN and other poems by Jason Camlot, Pants with Pockets: Poems by Chris Masson, and A Tender Invention: Poems by Gillian Sze) -- above/ground press ALBERTA SERIES, now on-line -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- Ottawa: The Unknown City -- Monica Kidd, any other woman: an uncommon biography -- some upcoming events; -- from "missing persons" -- the VERY FIRST ISSUE of seventeen seconds: a journal of poetry and poetics www.robmclennan.blogspot.com + some other new things at the alberta, writing blog www.albertawriting.blogspot.com + some other new things at ottawa poetry newsletter, www.ottawapoetry.blogspot.com + some other new things at the Chaudiere Books blog,www.chaudierebooks.blogspot.com -- writer/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...13th poetry coll'n - The Ottawa City Project ...novel - white www.abovegroundpress.blogspot.com * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:22:06 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Alexander Subject: presses in Israel? Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I'm hoping someone can help. I am helping a friend look for an Israeli printer/publisher to print a booklet of an American poem (3 pages long in the original) which has been translated into Hebrew and Arabic. The poem will be published in the United States by a small press ( there will be three separate editions of the poem, which will appear in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. An American publisher has been found, and my friend is trying to find Arabic and Hebrew publishers, as well. This will be three editions of the same poem in three languages (the booklet will most likely cover 9 pages)--one distributed by an american press, one by an Arab press, one by an israeli press. Any ideas? He is NOT looking to print an expensive, rare edition. Any lead or information is welcome. You can backchannel to me at chax@theriver.com Charles charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com 411 N 7th ave, suite 103 tucson arizona 85705 520 620 1626 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 23:00:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Heller Subject: REMINDER: POETRY READING, MARCH 11TH Comments: To: UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, british-irish-poets@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael Heller and Burt Kimmelman Reading at the Cornelia Street Caf=E9 March 11th, 6 PM One drink minimum Address and Directions:=20 http://www.corneliastreetcafe.com/ Michael Heller has published eight volumes of=20 poetry, the most recent being Eschaton (2009).=20 His collection of essays on George Oppen,=20 Speaking the Estranged, was published in 2008.=20 Uncertain Poetries, a book of essays appeared in=20 2006. Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems=20 appeared in 2003. His memoir, Living Root, was=20 published by the State University of New York=20 Press in the Fall of 2000. Two Novellas: Marble=20 Snows & The Study is forthcoming in 2009. His=20 poetry and criticism have appeared in numerous=20 magazines and anthologies including The Paris=20 Review, Conjunctions, Harpers, New Letters, The=20 Nation, American Poetry Review, Jewish American=20 Poetry, Pequod, The New York Times Book Review,=20 Parnassus: Poetry in Review and many others. His=20 critical study, Conviction's Net of Branches:=20 Essays on the Objectivist Poets and Poetry, was=20 published by Southern Illinois University Press.=20 His many awards and honors include prizes from=20 The New School for Social Research, Poetry in=20 Public Places, the New York State CAPS Fellowship=20 in Poetry, the Alice Fay Di Castagnola Prize of=20 the Poetry Society of America, a New York=20 Foundation on the Arts Fellowship, the National=20 Endowment for the Humanities and the Fund for Poetry. Burt Kimmelman has published five collections of=20 poetry =96 Musaics (Sputyen Duyvil Press, 1992),=20 First Life (Jensen/Daniels Publishing, 2000), The=20 Pond at Cape May Point (Marsh Hawk Press, 2002),=20 a collaboration with the painter Fred Caruso,=20 Somehow (Marsh Hawk Press, 2005), and There Are=20 Words (Dos Madres Press, 2007); his volume of=20 poems titled As If Free is forthcoming in 2009=20 (from Talisman House, Publishers). For over a=20 decade he was Senior Editor of Poetry New York: A=20 Journal of Poetry and Translation. He is a=20 professor of English at New Jersey Institute of=20 Technology and the author of two book-length=20 literary studies: The "Winter Mind": William=20 Bronk and American Letters (Fairleigh Dickinson=20 University Press, 1998); and, The Poetics of=20 Authorship in the Later Middle Ages: The=20 Emergence of the Modern Literary Persona (Peter=20 Lang Publishing, 1996; paperback 1999). He also=20 edited The Facts on File Companion to=20 20th-Century American Poetry (Facts on File, 2005). Eschaton (new poems) Talisman House Publishers=20 (2009) available at SPD, Greenfield Distribution=20 (www.gfibooks.com), www. amazon.com and good=20 bookstores. Speaking The Estranged: Essays on the=20 Work of George Oppen (2008); Uncertain Poetries:=20 Essays on Poets, Poetry and Poetics (2005) and=20 Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003)=20 available at www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com=20 and good bookstores. Survey of work at=20 http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm=20 Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman=20 Johnson at=20 http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html=20 Recordings at http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Heller.html =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 04:55:43 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Andrew Lundwall & Christian Nicholas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This week: Philly's mysterious Christian Nicholas and Beloit's indomitable = man of Scantily Clad-ness, Andrew Lundwall: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 And "Chimes" is here: =A0 http://www.blazevox.org/bk-af.htm =A0 and some poems from Chimes as well =A0 http://www.scottishpoetryreview.com/poems/fieled.htm =A0 Peace Out! Ad=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:13:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 03.09.09-03.15.09 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII LITERARY BUFFALO 03.09.09-03.15.09 FIRST ANNUAL JUST BUFFALO MEMBERS READING THIS SATURDAY=21 Group reading by contestants. Come hear the poems yourself -- and vote for = your favorite one. R.D. Pohl of the Buffalo News poetry page will announce = the winner of the jury prize and the audience in attendance will vote for t= he winner of the audience prize. 03.14.09 Just Buffalo Just Buffalo Member Poetry Contest Reading Awards/readings by Contestants and Winners Saturday, March 14, 7 PM Market Arcade Bldg. Atrium, 617 Main St. Potential list of readers: Larry Bachman Ansie Baird Curtiss S. Butler Richard Cimbalo Brenda J. Cowe Gordon Crock Joanna Dicker-Bachman Linda Drajem Diane Evans Kenneth J. Feltges Sally A. Fiedler Carrie Gardner Gene Grabiner Betty Jean Grant Peter J. Grieco Jorge Guitart George T. Hole Barbara D. Holender Loren Keller Joyce Kessel Gunilla T. Kester Bruce H. McCausland Florine Melnyk Perry S. Nicholas Joe Nickell Luis Nieves Barbara Nowak Caroline Parrinello Teresa Peipins Marc Pietrzykowski Vonetta T. Rhodes Sara Ries Rosa Rojas Jane E. Sadowsky Karen Sands-O'Connor Carl Schneider Jennifer Schnick Kathleen Shoemaker Judy Stadler Patricia Stinger Valencia Thomas Ruth Thompson Carol A. Townsend Joan M. Van de Water Paul A. White EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the public unless othe= rwise noted. 03.09.09 Wordflight Jane Adam & Amol Salunkhe Poetry Reading Monday, March 9, 7 PM Crane Library, 633 Elmwood Ave 03.10.09 Just Buffalo Short Story Discussion Group Discussing Denis Johnson, Isaac Babel Tuesday, March 10, 6:30 PM Spot Coffee, Delaware and Chippewa 03.11.09 Earth's Daughters Gray Hair Reading Series Christina Wos Donnelly & Verneice Turner Poetry Reading Wednesday, March 11, 7:30 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware (=40 Tupper) 03.13.09 Talking Leaves...Books Eric Reitan Talk/Signing: Is God A Delusion? Friday, March 13, 5 PM Talking Leaves Books, 3158 Main St. Babel/International Institute of Buffalo Iranian Culture Night Celebration in Honor of Marjane Satrapi's Lecture Friday, March 13, 6:30 PM International Institute of Buffalo, 864 Delaware ___________________________________________________________________________ BABEL ISABEL ALLENDE READING ON APRIL 17 MOVED TO KLEINHANS MUSIC HALL=21 INDIVIDUAL TICKETS ARE ON SALE NOW=21 =24100 PATRON LEVEL (Includes reserved seating area tickets plus admission = to pre-event reception with Isabel Allende at Henry's restaurant in Kleinha= ns) =2430 GENERAL ADMISSION (Includes general admission seating to event) Visit www.justbuffalo.org or call 832.5400 to order yours now. SPECIAL RATES (PHONE ORDERS ONLY) =2425 GROUP RATE (per ticket for orders of three or more; must order at the= same time) =2420 CURRENT SUBSCRIBER RATE (current subscribers can purchase as many tic= kets as they like for this special rate) =2410 CLASSROOM RATE (teachers can purchase groups of ten or more tickets f= or students for this low student rate) CALL 832.5400 TO ORDER IN-PERSON ONLY RATE (can be purchased at Just Buffalo or at the event only) =2410 STUDENT INDIVIDUAL RATE (for students with current, valid student I.D= =2E) ___________________________________________________________________________ Nomad Magazine NOMAD is a Buffalo magazine functioning as a portable gallery, showcasing w= ork of local creatives. Now accepting submissions for first issue. Deadline= : 3/15. http://www.nomadbuffalo.com ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:58:24 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Francesco Levato Subject: Poetry Center of Chicago launches the Cinema Poetic film series In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Poetry Center of Chicago's Cinema Poetic, a new film series exploring the intersection of poetic and cinematic expression, commences with a special screening of the documentary Ginsberg's Karma on Friday, March 13, at 7 pm in the SAIC Ballroom, 112 S. Michigan Ave. Prior to screening there will be a series of short poetry based films, followed by an introduction of and discussion about Ginsberg's Karma by Producer Bob Holman, Director Ram Devineni and leading Ginsberg authority Tony Trigilio. Admission is $10, $8 for students, free for SAIC students, faculty and staff. For tickets, go to http://www.poetrycenter.org or call the Poetry Center of Chicago at 312 899-1229. GINSBERG'S KARMA. A documentary about the legendary poet Allen Ginsberg and his mythical journey to India in the early 1960s that transformed his perspective on life and his work. Ginsberg traveled to India with Peter Orlovsky, to escape the media pressure of being an icon of the "Beat Generation" and to recover from writer's block after writing several of the most important poems of the 20th Century, including Howl. He hoped to re-create the hallucinatory "William Blake" vision that inspired his earlier work and search for a new muse other than drugs. Poet Bob Holman traces the two years Ginsberg spent in India by visiting the places where he stayed and talking with the people Ginsberg met and influenced. Also included in the documentary are intimate interviews with Beat poets Gary Snyder, Joanne Kyger, Anne Waldman, John Giorno and others. The film is inspired by Ginsberg's collection, Indian Journals, and Deborah Baker's book, A Blue Hand: The Beats in India. By discovering Ginsberg's experiences in India, Bob Holman traces how Ginsberg effected the counter-culture movement of the 1960s and Buddhism in America. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 09:57:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: March 19-21: Poetry in Toledo & Cleveland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii POETRY IS A LIVING LANGUAGE THURSDAY, MARCH 19 Jennifer Karmin & Michael Kocinski 9pm at the Collingwood Arts Center 2413 Collingwood Blvd -- Toledo, Ohio http://www.collingwoodartscenter.org FRIDAY, MARCH 20 Bree, John Burroughs, Alice Cone, Michael Fiala, Stephen Haven, Jennifer Karmin, Jack McGuane, Ray McNeice, Philip Metres, Robert Miltner, Michael Salinger, Leonard Shelton, Ann Smith, Larry Smith, Andrew Summerson & Mary Weems celebrating the new anthology Come Together: Imagine Peace (Bottom Dog Press). 7pm at The Lit 2570 Superior Ave -- Cleveland, Ohio http://www.the-lit.org SATURDAY, MARCH 21 Mary Biddinger & Jennifer Karmin 8pm at Visible Voice Books 1023 Kenilworth Ave -- Cleveland, Ohio http://www.visiblevoicebooks.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:58:06 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Evan Munday Subject: Lisa Robertson & Sina Queyras in NYC - March 20 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear New York friends, An incredible literary event is happening at the CUNY Graduate Center late this March: LISA ROBERTSON and SINA QUEYRAS - MARCH 20 On Friday, March 20th, the City University of New York's Graduate Center presents two acclaimed Canadian poets who have both done remarkable things with the lyric essay form. Coach House Books, one of Canada's most noted avant-garde presses, has recently published the new collections Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip by Lisa Robertson and Expressway by Sina Queyras. Robertson and Queyras will read from these brand-new works and participate in a discussion. Lisa Robertson -- Governor General's Award nominee, author of The Weather and The Men and frequent cross-genre collaborator -- visits from San Francisco to launch Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip, a new book of previously uncollected poems essays, drafts, reports, treatises and laments. Toronto's Eye Weekly calls it an 'exuberant, saucy approach to the materiality of language and vice versa.' Sina Queyras -- Lambda Literary Award winner, former co-curator of the Belladonna series and noted literary blogger (lemonhound.blogspot.com) -- visits from Montreal to launch Expressway, her new collection that uses the modes of the Romantic poets to explore the world of modern transportation and mobility. Check out the trailer for Expressway at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui9Qw_RtWRk Lisa Robertson and Sina Queyras in New York City launching Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip and Expressway Friday, March 20 CUNY Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, New York Room 9204 6:00 p.m. For media requests, review copies or further information, please contact Evan Munday at evan@chbooks.com or 416.979.2217. Best, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:43:15 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Small Press Traffic Subject: REMINDER! SPT Presents Szymaszek and Santos Perez! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please excuse our cross-posting but no how excited we are to have these fantastic readers coming out to thrill us this Friday! *Stacy Szymaszek & Craig Santos Perez* Friday, March 13, 2009 at 7:30 p.m. Timken Hall, CCA 1111 8th Street, San Francisco $5-10 sliding scale/ members free! *Stacy Szymaszek* is the author of Emptied of All Ships (Litmus, 2005) as well as many chapbooks, most recently Orizaba: A Voyage With Hart Crane (Faux, 2008), and from Hyperglossia (Hot Whiskey, 2008). Stacy S: Autoportraits which features her self-portraits with texts written in response by Lisa Jarnot, Renee Gladman, Kevin Killian and others was also published in 2008 by OMG!. The complete Hyperglossia will be published by Litmus Press in spring of 2009. She is the editor of Gam and the Artistic Director of the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church. *Craig Santos Perez*, a native Chamoru from the Pacific Island of Guahan (Guam), is a co-founder of Achiote Press and author of from unincorporated territory [hacha] (Tinfish Press, 2008). His poetry, essays, reviews, and translations have appeared (or are forthcoming) in New American Writing, Pleiades, The Denver Quarterly, The Colorado Review, and ZYZZYVA, among others. -- Samantha Giles Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center sptraffic.org smallpresstraffic.blogspot.comg ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Subject: new PoemTalk out today (Hejinian) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Episode #15 of PoemTalk is out today: http://www.poemtalk.org Tom Mandel, Bob Perelman and Tom Devaney discuss one poem in Lyn Hejinian's unfinished series, "The Book of a Thousand Eyes." Al Filreis http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:13:00 -0700 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: New de blog: President Obama's First 100 Days Comments: To: UK POETRY , "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Astonishingly enough, we, at least in the USA, are coming up Tuesday on the= 50th day of President Obama's first 100 days in Office - the conventional = time frame for setting out the template of a new Regime. As intended, on my= blog I have made a haptic drawing a day with additional reflective comment= ary=A0 (&/or the commentary grows out of making the haptic).=20 http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ OBAMA DAY 48 - The =93Spire=94 by Andy Goldsworthy at the San Francisco Pre= sidio. OBAMA DAY 47 - Chinary Ung performing Mother and Child, (Viola & Voice), Ot= her Minds Music Festival at the Jewish Community Center, San Francisco. OBAMA DAY 46 - The President labors hard to be clear. OBAMA DAY 45 - The pluralities of the Nation are within us. OBAMA DAY 44 - Beckett, Godot, the Nation & The Tree. OBAMA DAY 43 - The Lake that precedes the lake we know=85 (continue, as you may!)=20 As always your comments are appreciated. Unfortunately spam issues keep the= public comment box closed.=20 Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:43:23 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Troy Camplin Subject: Re: Gift Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry that I don't uncritically accept every idea that comes along. Hol= d, it, wait, neither do you. You just like what I don't, and dislike what I= do. That doesn't make me a fascist. In fact, you show you don't even know = what a fascist is, with this statement. =0A=0AThe American postmodernist wr= iters were all influenced by such people as Sartre, deBeauvoir, Lacan, Derr= ida, Barthes, Foucauld, etc. I've read them all. I like them all. But they = have had too much influence over American letters over the last half centur= y, and it will benefit us greatly to come out from under that influence pre= cisely because of the fascist foundations of their ideas and works (see Wol= in's works on the fascist foundations of the postmodernist thinkers in "Hei= degger's Children" and "The Seduction of Unreason" and Argyros' "A Blessed = Rage for Order" on Derrida). =0A=0AThe ability to judge ideas or their infl= uence as bad doesn't make one a fascist. It shows that one is able to think= and make critical judgments based on observation. The attempt to stifle di= alogue by throwing around the word "fascist" to label those with whom you d= isagree is in fact a fascist tactic.=0A=0ATroy Camplin=0A=0A=0A=0A_________= _______________________=0AFrom: Murat Nemet-Nejat =0ATo:= POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Friday, March 6, 2009 4:40:44 PM=0ASu= bject: Re: Gift Economy=0A=0ATroy,=0A=0A"our art and literature will improv= e greatly the minute we stop being=0Ainfluenced by the French theorists."= =0A=0AWhy does almost every statement you make must involve the putting dow= n of=0Aanother? Are you aware how ridiculous that statements sounds. How mu= ch of=0AAmerican literature, do you thing, is influenced by "French theoris= ts"? Or=0Ahow much of French literature is influence by "French theorists" = for that=0Amatter? What is a French theorist anyhow?=0A=0ATo indulge in som= e name calling myself, are you aware demonizing the other=0Ais the basic mo= de of Fascist thought, regardless how much libertarian, you=0Amight image, = means liberty.=0A=0ACiao,=0A=0AMurat=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:3= 6 AM, Troy Camplin wrote:=0A=0A> I do believe I can= make better judgments than any government administrator,=0A> yes. Especial= ly if they are working in their capacity of government=0A> administrator. I= mpersonal judgment is no judgment. As for people on the=0A> listserv, I bel= ieve my judgment is better than some, the same as others, and=0A> likely wo= rse than a few -- but we are free to have those differences, that=0A> those= who agree that my judgments are better or the same as theirs can=0A> suppo= rt my nonprofit, and those who disagree can contribute to one (or start=0A>= their own) that better reflects their own taste. The point is that such=0A= > actions would be voluntary.=0A>=0A> Personally, I've seen no evidence tha= t France or Canada is turning out=0A> superior artists, though I have n o d= oubt that the French and the French=0A> Canadians certainly think so. I wil= l admit, though, that our art and=0A> literature will improve greatly the m= inute we stop being influenced by the=0A> French theorists.=0A>=0A> Troy Ca= mplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Fran=E7ois= Luong =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent= : Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:23:06 PM=0A> Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0A>=0A>= The market already drives more than one art form. As many people=0A> Troy,= =0A>=0A> The market already drives more than one art form. As many people h= ave=0A> pointed out, the majority of the music industry is driven by the fr= ee market=0A> at a global level. Is the music industry any more equitable t= han other=0A> government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed out, the = only thing that=0A> is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made quickl= y, sold for a lot of=0A> money," an argument you completely disregarded in = your response to her.=0A>=0A> You also fail to show how a "nonprofit organi= zation such as yours" would be=0A> a better way to fund the arts. Are you i= mplying you have better taste than=0A> government administrators and/or any= one else on this listserv? Do I believe=0A> that "my" people would be in ch= arge of a government art funding program?=0A> Certainly not. Even though Ca= nada and France have much better funding=0A> programs than the United State= s, they still have their faults. Does that=0A> mean we should scrap them? W= ell, they have certainly contributed to Canadian=0A> arts and poetry being = more interesting than the majority of US arts.=0A>=0A> Finally, many of the= programs you are listed had already been enacted=0A> before Hitler's rise = to power. National health care had for example been=0A> implemented by Bism= arck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) and=0A> unemployment compensatio= n in 1927 at the national level. The L=E4ndern had=0A> their own programs b= efore it was made a federal law.=0A>=0A> fran=E7ois luong=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Wednesday, March 4= , 2009 1:42:35 PM=0A> Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0A>=0A> Much of the great m= onuments were in fact made with slave labor? Does that=0A> then argue for s= lave labor for other massive works? Yes, many of our great=0A> works of art= were government-funded, and government funds come from somebody=0A> with p= ower having enough power to take money from weaker people. To me, that=0A> = argues against that method, no matter how successful it has been in the=0A>= past. It's not magical thinking to believe there better, non-coercive ways= =0A> to fund the arts, and that we should try to use and develop those. The= =0A> market is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and can be= =0A> another. Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of governm= ent.=0A>=0A> And fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is cor= porate=0A> socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for everyone he= re. There=0A> are different kinds of socialism, you know -- it doesn't have= to be=0A> communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's version looked like: = he suspended=0A> the gold standard, embarked on huge public works programs = like Autobahns,=0A> protected industry from foreign competition, expanded c= redit, instituted=0A> jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices a= nd production=0A> decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital= controls,=0A> instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about= national health=0A> care and unemployment insurance, imposed education sta= ndards, and eventually=0A> ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the ki= nd of economy our government=0A> has been actively trying to set up for a w= hile now, though it's been=0A> accelerating quite a bit of late..=0A>=0A> T= hose who support government funding of the arts naively think that they=0A>= will always have their people in charge and that therefore they will be th= e=0A> ones getting the funding. But you can't count on being in charge in a= =0A> democratic country -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. I pre= fer to=0A> keep the government out of the arts completely, so there is far = less danger=0A> of coercion or censorship -- direct or indirect.=0A>=0A> Tr= oy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Fran= =E7ois Luong =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A= > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM=0A> Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0A= >=0A> "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to lea= rn=0A> what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do that educ= ation,=0A> Troy? The marketing department? I think we already have such sit= uation. I=0A> mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because = they have a=0A> bigger marketing department than say, New Model Army?=0A>= =0A> In all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. There = is no=0A> account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free marke= t. What you=0A> base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonab= le, two, that=0A> reason will lead them toward goodness. There are however = no evidence for=0A> this assertion, much like there is no evidence for the = free market being=0A> able to nurture art as we understand it. In the contr= ary, state-funded art=0A> goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funde= d the Parthenon, for=0A> example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Fr= ancis I of France? An=0A> example of an artistic situation within a free ma= rket context? Try Germany=0A> in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Soc= ialist" in their name does not=0A> make them socialists. Being in the pocke= t of Mercedes and Krupp proves it),=0A> with the painters of the Neue Sachl= ichkeit being persecuted because their=0A> art was not marketable to the Ge= rman populace.=0A>=0A> fran=E7ois luong=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> _______________= _________________=0A> From: Troy Camplin =0A> To: PO= ETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM=0A> = Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0A>=0A> You only prove my point with such stateme= nt. Not that I'm not in agreement=0A> with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn'= t really what I'm looking for in high=0A> art. What you missed was what cam= e after the comma. The market also allows=0A> for persuasion. People can be= educated to learn what is good and what is not=0A> good. The same person w= ho has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would be=0A> terribly disappointe= d to find such a work in his museum when he went to=0A> visit. There is a d= ifference between what people like in a general sort of=0A> way and what pe= ople acknowledge to be great works of art. My wife, for=0A> example, thinks= that opera is literally the best way to spend an evening.=0A> But she also= listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my posting, you=0A> will note = that I differentiate between what the market does in allowing for=0A> niche= s and true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the majority. In that=0A>= case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is=0A> pr= ecisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting the arts.=0A>= =0A> Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From= : John Cunningham =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFF= ALO.EDU=0A> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM=0A> Subject: Re: Gift Ec= onomy=0A>=0A> Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist o= f poker=0A> playing=0A> dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner= of artistic merit"!=0A> There are times when democracy is the worst possib= le determiner. If it had=0A> been allowed to determine things, blacks would= still be slaves as the=0A> Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most= hated piece of legislation=0A> ever and popular support was vastly against= it.=0A> John Herbert Cunningham=0A>=0A> -----Original Message-----=0A> Fro= m: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On=0A> Be= half Of Troy Camplin=0A> Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM=0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV= ..BUFFALO.EDU=0A> Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0A>=0A> Funny thing is, you're r= ight about the anti-market position. The market is=0A> in fact the most dem= ocratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the=0A> horror=0A> of the eli= tists here), while also allowing room for people to have access=0A> to=0A> = works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only listen= =0A> to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we wou= ld=0A> only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing= =0A> something=0A> along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free= market can I=0A> listen=0A> to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidenta= lly, one of the reasons why I=0A> set up the Emerson Institute was to truly= democratize patronage of the arts=0A> -- in a way that was 100% voluntary.= Equality under the law, yes;=0A> collectivist egalitarianism, no.=0A>=0A> = Troy Camplin=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Mar= cus Bales =0A> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU= =0A> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM=0A> Subject: Re: Gift Econ= omy=0A>=0A> The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that = a free=0A> market=0A> is a good=0A> judge of artistic merit is that it mean= s Paul has put himself in an=0A> untenable position:=0A> he's implicitly ar= guing that some poems are better than others, and that=0A> some people=0A> = can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one that= =0A> will get him in a=0A> lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him = lumped in with Troy as an=0A> equality-hater.=0A> Be careful, Paul! You jus= t can't say that some poems are better than=0A> others,=0A> or some=0A> poe= ts better than others, without getting accused of elitism!=0A>=0A> You're n= ot an elitist, are you, Paul?=0A>=0A> Marcus=0A>=0A>=0A> On 26 Feb 2009 at = 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote:=0A>=0A> Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40= :55 -0800=0A> Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)"=0A> =0A> From: Paul Nelson =0A> Subject: Re: Gift Economy=0A> To: POETICS@= LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A>=0A> > Like most of your arguments, you base your s= tand on a false dich=0A> > Troy,=0A> >=0A> > Like most of your arguments, y= ou base your stand on a false=0A> > dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MA= RKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was=0A> > only responding to your notion that the= Free Market is a good judge=0A> > of artistic quality. I find that laughab= le, which is why I have=0A> > responded in what I thought was a humorous ma= nner.=0A> >=0A> > What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, = we can=0A> > actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part= of=0A> > the gift economy.=0A> >=0A> > from Wikipedia:=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > A= gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are=0A> > g= iven without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid=0A> > pro = quo.=0A> > Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and= =0A> > redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered=0A= > > a=0A> > form of reciprocal altruism.=0A> > The concept of a gift econom= y stands in contrast to a planned=0A> > economy or a market or barter econo= my.=0A> > In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by=0A> >= explicit=0A> > command and control rather than informal custom; in barter = or=0A> > market=0A> > economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of = money or some=0A> > other commodity - is established before the transaction= takes=0A> > place.=0A> >=0A> > Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in = years past) had a=0A> > different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz a= nd Neruda as=0A> > Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies ha= ve social=0A> > safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life withou= t=0A> > becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours.=0A> >=0A> > I'd like not= hing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending,=0A> > starting with= the outlays for militarism:=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > Again Wiki:=0A> >=0A> >=0A> = > As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1=0A> > trill= ion annually on defense-related purposes.=0A> >=0A> > Imagine $1B of that g= oing to fund doctors and nurses in underserved=0A> > areas. Imagine a new (= old) way of structuring economies on a=0A> > bioregional (sustainable) basi= s. The Federal Government becomes much=0A> > less of a factor which, it see= ms to me, is the common ground you and=0A> > I have. But when you make faut= y premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs=0A> > FREE MARKET, little light is gen= erated.=0A> >=0A> > Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had s= ome inkling=0A> > about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poem= s and=0A> > Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Fre= e=0A> > Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway= ,=0A> > the mission of this listserv. May it be so.=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > Paul= =0A> >=0A> >=0A> > Paul E. Nelson=0A> >=0A> > Global Voices Radio=0A> > SP= LAB!=0A> > American Sentences=0A> > Organic Poetry=0A> > Poetry Postcard Bl= og=0A> >=0A> > Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >= =0A> >=0A> > ________________________________=0A> > From: Troy Camplin =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Tues= day, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes = talent!=0A> >=0A> > Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite m= ay be true."=0A> > The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. I= t is an=0A> > imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow= for a=0A> > wide variety of options. The government does not give you opti= ons.=0A> > It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't = like=0A> > government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand = car?=0A> > Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the ru= b,=0A> > isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be=0A> > governm= ent-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot=0A> > support every= one who says they are an artist. There must be someone=0A> > deciding who g= ets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't=0A> > think so. Me? Do= n't think so. This year it may be someone with whom=0A> > you agree; next y= ear it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or=0A> > should there be a= democratic vote? Do you really want art by=0A> > democratic vote? How many= here write anything a=0A> > democratic majority would want to read? Perhap= s a committee? Similar=0A> > problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fa= ct, it has the=0A> > problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to = be determined?=0A> > How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe be= t would be to=0A> > give it to those who are already successful -- but then= , if they are=0A> > already successful, why do they need government funding= ? And if they=0A> > are not successful, how does the government determine w= ho to give=0A> > funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, the= n, what=0A> > prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enoug= h=0A> > really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get= =0A> > a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history= =0A> > of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other=0A> = > conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the=0A> > arts= ..=0A> >=0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > ________________________= ________=0A> > From: Paul Nelson =0A> > To: POETICS@LI= STSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM=0A> > S= ubject: Re: The Market recognizes talent!=0A> >=0A> > From: Troy Camplin =0A> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0A> > Sent: Fr= iday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM=0A> > Subject: Re: The Market recognizes= talent!=0A> >=0A> > One=0A> > can always point to people who in your opini= on (and, with this=0A> > list,=0A> > mine) are at best embarrassing. Howeve= r, one can also point to the=0A> > fact=0A> > that Picasso, Monet, and Jasp= er Johns were all made wealthy during=0A> > their lifetimes. I may not like= Britney Spears, but I'm also not=0A> > going=0A> > to deprive anyone of he= r, either, if that's what they like. If you=0A> > want=0A> > to try to educ= ate people to have better taste, that's fine and good=0A> > --=0A> > but th= ere's no evidence the government is good at educating people=0A> > in=0A> >= math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have=0A> > t= o=0A> > purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw= =0A> > men=0A> > (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point."=0A> >= =0A> > Troy Camplin=0A> >=0A> > I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I= don't use the market as=0A> > any=0A> > guide to quality in the arts. In f= act, the opposite may be true,=0A> > but=0A> > when you're a fundamentalist= , you say funny things, eh?=0A> > Paul E. Nelson=0A> >=0A> > Global Voices = Radio=0A> > SPLAB!=0A> > American Sentences=0A> > Organic Poetry=0A> > Poet= ry Postcard Blog=0A> >=0A> > Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept al= l posts. Check=0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub info:=0A> > http://epc.buffalo.= edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > Th= e Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> > guidel= ines & sub/unsub info:=0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A= > >=0A> >=0A> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> > The Poetics List is mod= erated & does not accept all posts. Check=0A> > guidelines & sub/unsub info= :=0A> > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > --=0A= > > No virus found in this incoming message.=0A> > Checked by AVG.=0A> > Ve= rsion: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date:=0A> > 2/22/2009 = 12:00 AM=0A> >=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetic= s List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub= /unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accep= t all posts. Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu= /poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics L= ist is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/u= nsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome..html=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept a= ll posts.. Check=0A> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/po= etics/welcome..html=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A= > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. 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Check guidelines=0A> & sub/unsub info: http:= //epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A>=0A=0A=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =0AThe Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guideli= nes & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 14:00:16 -0700 Reply-To: Del Ray Cross Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO 35 Comments: To: delraycross@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I'm very pleased to present you with= Dear Beauties & Beauticians,=0A =0A I'm very pleased to present you with= SHAMPOO issue=0A35!=0A =C2=A0=0A This special issue features a section of = poetry from=0AGermany (in German with English translations) brought=0Ato yo= u by Guest Editors Ron Winkler and Christian=0ALux -- PLUS -- a super-hott = special section from Guest=0AEditor Ronald Palmer.=0A =C2=A0=0A Check it al= l out here:=C2=A0 www.ShampooPoetry.com=0A =C2=A0=0A Poets & translators=C2= =A0include Stephanie Young, Uljana=0AWolf, Jan Wagner, David Trinidad, Thie= n Tran, Barbara=0AThimm, Mark Terrill, Brian Teare, Gary Sullivan, Ramsey= =0AScott, Tom Schulz, Katharina Schultens, Sabine Scho,=0AJD Schneider, Ulr= ike Almut Sandig, Andre Rudolph,=0AJan Volker R=C3=B6hnert, Lawrence Rinder= , Nikola Richter,=0AKevin Prufer, Georgina Paul, Ethan Paquin, Danielle=0AP= afunda, Peter Nickowitz, Daniel Nester, Steph Morris,=0ASara Larsen, Norber= t Lange, Wayne Koestenbaum, Kevin=0AKillian, Ernst Herbeck, Duriel E. Harri= s, Catherine=0AHales, Matthias Goeritz, Jane Gibian, Iain Galbraith,=0AJoha= nnes CS Frank, Michael Farrell, Daniel Falb, Carl=0AChristian Elze, Peter C= ovino, Ann Cotten, CAConrad,=0AJenny Boully, Jennifer Blowdryer, Nico Bleut= ge, Mark=0ABibbins, Susan Bernofsky, Dodie Bellamy, Toby Axelrod=0A& Shane = Allison, with=C2=A0scratch&sniff SHAMPOOArt by=0AOtto Chan.=0A =C2=A0=0A Th= anks for supporting nine years of SHAMPOO!=0A =C2=A0=0A Pertly yours,=0A = =C2=A0=0A Del Ray Cross, Editor=0A SHAMPOO=0A clean hair / good poetry=0A w= ww.ShampooPoetry.com=0A =C2=A0=0A =C2=A0=0A (If you'd prefer not to receive= these emails, please=0Alet me know.)=0A =0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:52:13 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <692005.65023.qm@web46213.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So because Martin Heidegger was a Nazi the disenchanted Marxist ideas =20= of existentialism and post-structuralism were founded in fascism? It =20 seems quite clear to me that you haven't read all of the "French =20 Theorists" you're talking about because you are lumping them together =20= inappropriately as if they represent some monolith of ideology that =20 doesn't exist. Borrowing the following quote from the wikipedia entry =20= on postmodernism, Judith Butler pointed out that: "A number of positions are ascribed to postmodernism - Discourse is =20 all there is, as if discourse were some kind of monistic stuff out of =20= which all things are composed; the subject is dead, I can never say =20 =93I=94 again; there is no reality, only representation. These =20 characterizations are variously imputed to postmodernism or =20 poststructuralism, which are conflated with each other and sometimes =20 conflated with deconstruction, and understood as an indiscriminate =20 assemblage of French feminism, deconstruction, Lacanian =20 psychoanalysis, Foucauldian analysis, Rorty=92s conversationalism, and =20= cultural studies ... In reality, these movements are opposed: =20 Lacanian psychoanalysis in France positions itself officially against =20= poststructuralism, that Foucauldian rarely relate to Derridideans ... =20= Lyotard champions the term, but he cannot be made into the example of =20= what all the rest of the purported postmodernists are doing. =20 Lyotard=92s work is, for instance, seriously at odds with that of = Derrida" more importantly, looking around at the literary field of the last 40 =20= years or so I see in prose generally a marginal group in the vein of =20 Gaddis/Pynchon/Barth/Coover/Delillo/Wallace et al that is rapidly =20 giving way to the sort of thing that Michael Chabon is now up to =20 where the wild craziness of the high postmodernists is replaced with =20 a more subtle emphasis on traditional storytelling and the =20 artificiality of the publishing market controlled "genres" of =20 fiction. In poetry the situation is much clearer, where there were =20 poets influenced by philosophers, the most obvious being the Language =20= poets, many of them are much more involved in anglo-american =20 philosophy than you are giving them credit. Wittgenstein is an =20 obvious influence across the board, but probably more important are =20 John Cage, Gertrude Stein, and Charles Olson, none of whom were =20 formed in the grips of anything you might find in the Saussure to =20 Derrida tradition in philosphy you're pointing at. Ted Berrigan was =20 heavily inspired by Whitehead, and Bertrand Russeell is the most =20 widely read philosopher that I'm aware of for those poets who read =20 philosophy. All of that aside, by my lights, it still seems to me that =20 contemporary poetry is largely dominated by slam poetry and the sort =20 of MOR confessionalism that you find in Seamus Heaney, Billy Collins, =20= and their ilk. ANd frankly the complaints of the reactionary trend to =20= be found in neo-formalism are much more present in the popular =20 consciousness than anything informed by Barthes or other critics with =20= his commitments. So really, while there is a great deal of nattering by undergraduates =20= about poorly understood french philosophers leaking out of cultural =20 studies departments, i just don't see all this influence that you're =20 talking about by "French Theorists" and it makes me wonder what it is =20= that you're reading, because it's not the same stuff I am. On Mar 9, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > I'm sorry that I don't uncritically accept every idea that comes =20 > along. Hold, it, wait, neither do you. You just like what I don't, =20 > and dislike what I do. That doesn't make me a fascist. In fact, you =20= > show you don't even know what a fascist is, with this statement. > > The American postmodernist writers were all influenced by such =20 > people as Sartre, deBeauvoir, Lacan, Derrida, Barthes, Foucauld, =20 > etc. I've read them all. I like them all. But they have had too =20 > much influence over American letters over the last half century, =20 > and it will benefit us greatly to come out from under that =20 > influence precisely because of the fascist foundations of their =20 > ideas and works (see Wolin's works on the fascist foundations of =20 > the postmodernist thinkers in "Heidegger's Children" and "The =20 > Seduction of Unreason" and Argyros' "A Blessed Rage for Order" on =20 > Derrida). > > The ability to judge ideas or their influence as bad doesn't make =20 > one a fascist. It shows that one is able to think and make critical =20= > judgments based on observation. The attempt to stifle dialogue by =20 > throwing around the word "fascist" to label those with whom you =20 > disagree is in fact a fascist tactic. > > Troy Camplin > > > > ________________________________ > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 4:40:44 PM > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > Troy, > > "our art and literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being > influenced by the French theorists." > > Why does almost every statement you make must involve the putting =20 > down of > another? Are you aware how ridiculous that statements sounds. How =20 > much of > American literature, do you thing, is influenced by "French =20 > theorists"? Or > how much of French literature is influence by "French theorists" =20 > for that > matter? What is a French theorist anyhow? > > To indulge in some name calling myself, are you aware demonizing =20 > the other > is the basic mode of Fascist thought, regardless how much =20 > libertarian, you > might image, means liberty. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Troy Camplin =20 > wrote: > >> I do believe I can make better judgments than any government =20 >> administrator, >> yes. Especially if they are working in their capacity of government >> administrator. Impersonal judgment is no judgment. As for people =20 >> on the >> listserv, I believe my judgment is better than some, the same as =20 >> others, and >> likely worse than a few -- but we are free to have those =20 >> differences, that >> those who agree that my judgments are better or the same as theirs =20= >> can >> support my nonprofit, and those who disagree can contribute to one =20= >> (or start >> their own) that better reflects their own taste. The point is that =20= >> such >> actions would be voluntary. >> >> Personally, I've seen no evidence that France or Canada is turning =20= >> out >> superior artists, though I have n o doubt that the French and the =20 >> French >> Canadians certainly think so. I will admit, though, that our art and >> literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being =20 >> influenced by the >> French theorists. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Fran=E7ois Luong >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:23:06 PM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> The market already drives more than one art form. As many people >> Troy, >> >> The market already drives more than one art form. As many people have >> pointed out, the majority of the music industry is driven by the =20 >> free market >> at a global level. Is the music industry any more equitable than =20 >> other >> government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed out, the only =20 >> thing that >> is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made quickly, sold for =20= >> a lot of >> money," an argument you completely disregarded in your response to =20= >> her. >> >> You also fail to show how a "nonprofit organization such as yours" =20= >> would be >> a better way to fund the arts. Are you implying you have better =20 >> taste than >> government administrators and/or anyone else on this listserv? Do =20 >> I believe >> that "my" people would be in charge of a government art funding =20 >> program? >> Certainly not. Even though Canada and France have much better funding >> programs than the United States, they still have their faults. =20 >> Does that >> mean we should scrap them? Well, they have certainly contributed =20 >> to Canadian >> arts and poetry being more interesting than the majority of US arts. >> >> Finally, many of the programs you are listed had already been enacted >> before Hitler's rise to power. National health care had for =20 >> example been >> implemented by Bismarck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) and >> unemployment compensation in 1927 at the national level. The =20 >> L=E4ndern had >> their own programs before it was made a federal law. >> >> fran=E7ois luong >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Troy Camplin >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:42:35 PM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> Much of the great monuments were in fact made with slave labor? =20 >> Does that >> then argue for slave labor for other massive works? Yes, many of =20 >> our great >> works of art were government-funded, and government funds come =20 >> from somebody >> with power having enough power to take money from weaker people. =20 >> To me, that >> argues against that method, no matter how successful it has been =20 >> in the >> past. It's not magical thinking to believe there better, non-=20 >> coercive ways >> to fund the arts, and that we should try to use and develop those. =20= >> The >> market is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and =20 >> can be >> another. Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of =20 >> government. >> >> And fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is corporate >> socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for everyone =20 >> here. There >> are different kinds of socialism, you know -- it doesn't have to be >> communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's version looked like: he =20= >> suspended >> the gold standard, embarked on huge public works programs like =20 >> Autobahns, >> protected industry from foreign competition, expanded credit, =20 >> instituted >> jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices and production >> decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital controls, >> instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about =20 >> national health >> care and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and =20 >> eventually >> ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the kind of economy our =20 >> government >> has been actively trying to set up for a while now, though it's been >> accelerating quite a bit of late.. >> >> Those who support government funding of the arts naively think =20 >> that they >> will always have their people in charge and that therefore they =20 >> will be the >> ones getting the funding. But you can't count on being in charge in a >> democratic country -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. I =20= >> prefer to >> keep the government out of the arts completely, so there is far =20 >> less danger >> of coercion or censorship -- direct or indirect. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Fran=E7ois Luong >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to =20 >> learn >> what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do that =20 >> education, >> Troy? The marketing department? I think we already have such =20 >> situation. I >> mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because they =20 >> have a >> bigger marketing department than say, New Model Army? >> >> In all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. =20 >> There is no >> account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free =20 >> market. What you >> base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonable, =20 >> two, that >> reason will lead them toward goodness. There are however no =20 >> evidence for >> this assertion, much like there is no evidence for the free market =20= >> being >> able to nurture art as we understand it. In the contrary, state-=20 >> funded art >> goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, for >> example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of =20 >> France? An >> example of an artistic situation within a free market context? Try =20= >> Germany >> in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in their name =20= >> does not >> make them socialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp =20 >> proves it), >> with the painters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted =20 >> because their >> art was not marketable to the German populace. >> >> fran=E7ois luong >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Troy Camplin >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> You only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in =20 >> agreement >> with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm looking for =20= >> in high >> art. What you missed was what came after the comma. The market =20 >> also allows >> for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good and =20 >> what is not >> good. The same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement =20 >> would be >> terribly disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he =20 >> went to >> visit. There is a difference between what people like in a general =20= >> sort of >> way and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. My wife, =20= >> for >> example, thinks that opera is literally the best way to spend an =20 >> evening. >> But she also listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my =20 >> posting, you >> will note that I differentiate between what the market does in =20 >> allowing for >> niches and true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the =20 >> majority. In that >> case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is >> precisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting =20 >> the arts. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: John Cunningham >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker >> playing >> dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic =20 >> merit"! >> There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. =20 >> If it had >> been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the >> Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of =20 >> legislation >> ever and popular support was vastly against it. >> John Herbert Cunningham >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) =20 >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Troy Camplin >> Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV..BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The =20 >> market is >> in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the >> horror >> of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have =20= >> access >> to >> works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would =20 >> only listen >> to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we =20= >> would >> only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing >> something >> along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I >> listen >> to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the =20 >> reasons why I >> set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of =20= >> the arts >> -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; >> collectivist egalitarianism, no. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Marcus Bales >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free >> market >> is a good >> judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an >> untenable position: >> he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, =20 >> and that >> some people >> can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, =20 >> one that >> will get him in a >> lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with =20 >> Troy as an >> equality-hater. >> Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than >> others, >> or some >> poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! >> >> You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? >> >> Marcus >> >> >> On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: >> >> Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 >> Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" >> >> From: Paul Nelson >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich >>> Troy, >>> >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false >>> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was >>> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good judge >>> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have >>> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. >>> >>> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can >>> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of >>> the gift economy. >>> >>> from Wikipedia: >>> >>> >>> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are >>> given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid >>> pro quo. >>> Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and >>> redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered >>> a >>> form of reciprocal altruism. >>> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned >>> economy or a market or barter economy. >>> In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by >>> explicit >>> command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or >>> market >>> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some >>> other commodity - is established before the transaction takes >>> place. >>> >>> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a >>> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as >>> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have social >>> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without >>> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. >>> >>> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending, >>> starting with the outlays for militarism: >>> >>> >>> Again Wiki: >>> >>> >>> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 >>> trillion annually on defense-related purposes. >>> >>> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved >>> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a >>> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes much >>> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and >>> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs >>> FREE MARKET, little light is generated. >>> >>> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling >>> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and >>> Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free >>> Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway, >>> the mission of this listserv. May it be so. >>> >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> Paul E. Nelson >>> >>> Global Voices Radio >>> SPLAB! >>> American Sentences >>> Organic Poetry >>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>> >>> Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Troy Camplin >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." >>> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an >>> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a >>> wide variety of options. The government does not give you options. >>> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like >>> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car? >>> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub, >>> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be >>> government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot >>> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone >>> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't >>> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom >>> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or >>> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by >>> democratic vote? How many here write anything a >>> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar >>> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the >>> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? >>> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to >>> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are >>> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they >>> are not successful, how does the government determine who to give >>> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what >>> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough >>> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get >>> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history >>> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other >>> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the >>> arts.. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Paul Nelson >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> From: Troy Camplin >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>> >>> One >>> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this >>> list, >>> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the >>> fact >>> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during >>> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not >>> going >>> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you >>> want >>> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good >>> -- >>> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating people >>> in >>> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have >>> to >>> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw >>> men >>> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as >>> any >>> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, >>> but >>> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? >>> Paul E. Nelson >>> >>> Global Voices Radio >>> SPLAB! >>> American Sentences >>> Organic Poetry >>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>> >>> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG. >>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date: >>> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM >>> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 >> welcome..html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 >> welcome..html >> >> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check =20 > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/=20 > welcome.html Jason Quackenbush jfq@myuw.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 01:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Morgan Schuldt Subject: Mark Horosky's Let It Be Nearby MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends of CUE and CUE Editions=2C As of today there are only 35 copies left of CUE Edition's first chapbook= =2C Let It Be Nearby=2C prose poems by Mark Horosky. Help us sell out this first run. If you haven't yet bought your copy=2C pl= ease do so now. LIBN is gorgeously printed on 15 unbound 6 3/4" x 6 3/4 " chap-cards that h= ave both a Side A and Side B. Chaps come in four vibrant colors (red / mustard / blue / teal) and are slipped inside a 7" paper record sleeve=2C which is in turn slipped inside a plastic slip case. $10.00 Go here for pictures and ordering: http://cueeditions.blogspot.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. =20 http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5= 50F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 01:48:11 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: from dalachinsky visual and poetry collaboration and audio up 4 previous and ... please check out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Get Away" went up today: http://qarrtsiluni.com/2009/03/01/get-away/ Six more to go! ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 01:53:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: 3 readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. an exciting one march 19 8 pm at 5c e 5th and ave c w/ 3 bassists , alby balgochian, lisle ellis and michael bisio 2. march 22 Equinox Art Exhbit and Party 1-6pm Performance starts 3:30 both days Steve Dalachinsky, Albey Balgochian, Yuko Otomo, Saco Yasuma 2130 1st Avenue (at 110th street), Door Code: 0211 #1008(10th fl.) and then also march 22 at bengal curry 65 west broadway near chambers st at 6 pm ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gary Sullivan Subject: BERNSTEIN + KARASICK | SEGUE @ BPC | SAT MAR 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CHARLES BERNSTEIN + ADEENA KARASICK Segue Reading Series @ Bowery Poetry Club Saturday March 14=2C 4:00 p.m.-6:00 p.m.=20 308 BOWERY=2C just north of Houston=20 $6 admission goes to support the readers The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Found= ation. For more information=2C please visit seguefoundation.com=2C bowerypo= etry.com=2C or call (212) 614-0505. Curators for February-March: Nada Gordo= n & Gary Sullivan. Charles Bernstein is the CFO of the Center for Avant-Garde Comedy and Stand= -Up Poetry. His most recent book is Blind Witness: Three American Operas.=20 Adeena Karasick is the 2008 winner of the MPS mobile award=2C poet media ar= tist and author of six books of poetry and poetic theory. Forthcoming is Am= use Bouche Tasty Treats for the Mouth (Talonbooks=2C 2009). She teaches Fil= m and Literature at CUNY. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:55:41 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Re: Gift Economy - and new query... In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0903061440y3dcafffdo2c63a6430012324@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hear hear.=C2=A0 This "lumping" strategy has moved beyond tedious and is gr= owing grim.=C2=A0=20 What is that style of argument called?=C2=A0 The one where the antagonist a= ccuses each participant of some condition (labels, in this case), so that t= he "discussion" is really only so much repetitive accusatory posturing on o= ne side demanding a defense from the other?=C2=A0=20 And the antagonist is, of course, never wrong as he selectively ignores con= structive, valid arguments in favor of further generalized, wrong-headed la= bels, maintaining his cyclical stance in order to appear to hold the "upper= hand" (i.e.=C2=A0 "I didn't do that; I was merely pointing out ... you're = the one who generalizes!")... Trying. to. figure. it. out. http://home.tiac.net/~cri_d/cri/1998/argue.html=C2=A0 redux. _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ Re: Gift Economy From: Jason Quackenbush Reply-To:Poetics List (UPenn, UB) Date:Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:52:13 -0700 So because Martin Heidegger was a Nazi the disenchanted Marxist ideas =20 of existentialism and post-structuralism were founded in fascism? It =20 seems quite clear to me that you haven't read all of the "French =20 Theorists" you're talking about because you are lumping them together =20 inappropriately as if they represent some monolith of ideology that =20 doesn't exist. Borrowing the following quote from the wikipedia entry =20 on postmodernism, Judith Butler pointed out that: "A number of positions are ascribed to postmodernism - Discourse is =20 all there is, as if discourse were some kind of monistic stuff out of =20 which all things are composed; the subject is dead, I can never say =20 =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D again; there is no reality, only representation. These = =20 characterizations are variously imputed to postmodernism or =20 poststructuralism, which are conflated with each other and sometimes =20 conflated with deconstruction, and understood as an indiscriminate =20 assemblage of French feminism, deconstruction, Lacanian =20 psychoanalysis, Foucauldian analysis, Rorty=E2=80=99s conversationalism, an= d =20 cultural studies ... In reality, these movements are opposed: =20 Lacanian psychoanalysis in France positions itself officially against =20 poststructuralism, that Foucauldian rarely relate to Derridideans ... =20 Lyotard champions the term, but he cannot be made into the example of =20 what all the rest of the purported postmodernists are doing. =20 Lyotard=E2=80=99s work is, for instance, seriously at odds with that of Der= rida" more importantly, looking around at the literary field of the last 40 =20 years or so I see in prose generally a marginal group in the vein of =20 Gaddis/Pynchon/Barth/Coover/Delillo/Wallace et al that is rapidly =20 giving way to the sort of thing that Michael Chabon is now up to =20 where the wild craziness of the high postmodernists is replaced with =20 a more subtle emphasis on traditional storytelling and the =20 artificiality of the publishing market controlled "genres" of =20 fiction. In poetry the situation is much clearer, where there were =20 poets influenced by philosophers, the most obvious being the Language =20 poets, many of them are much more involved in anglo-american =20 philosophy than you are giving them credit. Wittgenstein is an =20 obvious influence across the board, but probably more important are =20 John Cage, Gertrude Stein, and Charles Olson, none of whom were =20 formed in the grips of anything you might find in the Saussure to =20 Derrida tradition in philosophy you're pointing at. Ted Berrigan was =20 heavily inspired by Whitehead, and Bertrand Russell is the most =20 widely read philosopher that I'm aware of for those poets who read =20 philosophy. All of that aside, by my lights, it still seems to me that =20 contemporary poetry is largely dominated by slam poetry and the sort =20 of MOR confessionalism that you find in Seamus Heaney, Billy Collins, =20 and their ilk. ANd frankly the complaints of the reactionary trend to =20 be found in neo-formalism are much more present in the popular =20 consciousness than anything informed by Barthes or other critics with =20 his commitments. So really, while there is a great deal of nattering by undergraduates =20 about poorly understood french philosophers leaking out of cultural =20 studies departments, i just don't see all this influence that you're =20 talking about by "French Theorists" and it makes me wonder what it is =20 that you're reading, because it's not the same stuff I am. On Mar 9, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > I'm sorry that I don't uncritically accept every idea that comes =20 > along. Hold, it, wait, neither do you. You just like what I don't, =20 > and dislike what I do. That doesn't make me a fascist. In fact, you =20 > show you don't even know what a fascist is, with this statement. > > The American postmodernist writers were all influenced by such =20 > people as Sartre, deBeauvoir, Lacan, Derrida, Barthes, Foucauld, =20 > etc. I've read them all. I like them all. But they have had too =20 > much influence over American letters over the last half century, =20 > and it will benefit us greatly to come out from under that =20 > influence precisely because of the fascist foundations of their =20 > ideas and works (see Wolin's works on the fascist foundations of =20 > the postmodernist thinkers in "Heidegger's Children" and "The =20 > Seduction of Unreason" and Argyros' "A Blessed Rage for Order" on =20 > Derrida). > > The ability to judge ideas or their influence as bad doesn't make =20 > one a fascist. It shows that one is able to think and make critical =20 > judgments based on observation. The attempt to stifle dialogue by =20 > throwing around the word "fascist" to label those with whom you =20 > disagree is in fact a fascist tactic. > > Troy Camplin =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:05:32 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <0E22608D-D1EB-4A73-9355-6AEC31F77796@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable On 9 Mar 2009 at 19:52, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > ... Judith Butler pointed out that: > "A number of positions are ascribed to postmodernism - Discourse is > all there is, as if discourse were some kind of monistic stuff out > of which all things are composed; the subject is dead, I can never say > "I" again; there is no reality, only representation. These > characterizations are variously imputed to postmodernism or > poststructuralism, which are conflated with each other and sometimes > conflated with deconstruction, and understood as an indiscriminate > assemblage of French feminism, deconstruction, Lacanian > psychoanalysis, Foucauldian analysis, Rorty=B4s conversationalism, and > cultural studies ... In reality, these movements are opposed: I think the problem isn't that Troy misunderstands "french theory" in this= way, but rather that the vast majority of poets and academics writing and talking today th= us misunderstand "french theory". In my conversations, here as elsewhere, it'= s pretty clear that we're all postmodernists now, even those of us who don't want t= o be, because if you can't talk or write in that misunderstood "french theory" w= ay you can't get good jobs, grants, publications, or even invited to the right parties.= The vague misunderstanding of "french theory", that amalgamation you and Butler are = pointing out, is the common basis of arts discussion, now. Few people are interested in reading the original writers, or discussing t= heir actual ideas any more than the people who happily cheat on their spouses on the b= asis of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (don't ask unless you really want to know= !) really want to understand that principle. Misunderstanding, a vague awareness of = the terms based on some coffee-shop or bar discussions and having read a few reviews= , busy lives applying for grants and jobs, attending their acquaintances' poetry = readings, and reading at their own, and driving all over hell and creation to substitute= teach a remedial course that's labled "Creative Writing" for $875 a semester in or= der to eke out the car payment and some groceries -- good lord, it's no wonder these folk= s have no freaking idea which "french theory" they're laboring under a misapprehensi= on of. The wonder isn't that most poets don't understand "french theory" -- the w= onder is they even know it may be "french". Hmm. Maybe they don't! Marcus > On Mar 9, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > > > I'm sorry that I don't uncritically accept every idea that comes > > along. Hold, it, wait, neither do you. You just like what I don't, > > and dislike what I do. That doesn't make me a fascist. In fact, > you > > show you don't even know what a fascist is, with this statement. > > > > The American postmodernist writers were all influenced by such > > people as Sartre, deBeauvoir, Lacan, Derrida, Barthes, Foucauld, > > etc. I've read them all. I like them all. But they have had too > > much influence over American letters over the last half century, > > and it will benefit us greatly to come out from under that > > influence precisely because of the fascist foundations of their > > ideas and works (see Wolin's works on the fascist foundations of > > the postmodernist thinkers in "Heidegger's Children" and "The > > Seduction of Unreason" and Argyros' "A Blessed Rage for Order" on > > Derrida). > > > > The ability to judge ideas or their influence as bad doesn't make > > one a fascist. It shows that one is able to think and make > critical > > judgments based on observation. The attempt to stifle dialogue by > > throwing around the word "fascist" to label those with whom you > > disagree is in fact a fascist tactic. > > > > Troy Camplin > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 4:40:44 PM > > Subject: Re: Gift Economy > > > > Troy, > > > > "our art and literature will improve greatly the minute we stop > being > > influenced by the French theorists." > > > > Why does almost every statement you make must involve the putting > > down of > > another? Are you aware how ridiculous that statements sounds. How > > much of > > American literature, do you thing, is influenced by "French > > theorists"? Or > > how much of French literature is influence by "French theorists" > > for that > > matter? What is a French theorist anyhow? > > > > To indulge in some name calling myself, are you aware demonizing > > the other > > is the basic mode of Fascist thought, regardless how much > > libertarian, you > > might image, means liberty. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Troy Camplin > > wrote: > > > >> I do believe I can make better judgments than any government > >> administrator, > >> yes. Especially if they are working in their capacity of > government > >> administrator. Impersonal judgment is no judgment. As for people > >> on the > >> listserv, I believe my judgment is better than some, the same as > >> others, and > >> likely worse than a few -- but we are free to have those > >> differences, that > >> those who agree that my judgments are better or the same as > theirs > >> can > >> support my nonprofit, and those who disagree can contribute to > one > >> (or start > >> their own) that better reflects their own taste. The point is > that > >> such > >> actions would be voluntary. > >> > >> Personally, I've seen no evidence that France or Canada is > turning > >> out > >> superior artists, though I have n o doubt that the French and the > >> French > >> Canadians certainly think so. I will admit, though, that our art > and > >> literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being > >> influenced by the > >> French theorists. > >> > >> Troy Camplin > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Fran=E7ois Luong > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:23:06 PM > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> The market already drives more than one art form. As many > people > >> Troy, > >> > >> The market already drives more than one art form. As many people > have > >> pointed out, the majority of the music industry is driven by the > >> free market > >> at a global level. Is the music industry any more equitable than > >> other > >> government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed out, the only > >> thing that > >> is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made quickly, sold > for > >> a lot of > >> money," an argument you completely disregarded in your response > to > >> her. > >> > >> You also fail to show how a "nonprofit organization such as > yours" > >> would be > >> a better way to fund the arts. Are you implying you have better > >> taste than > >> government administrators and/or anyone else on this listserv? Do > >> I believe > >> that "my" people would be in charge of a government art funding > >> program? > >> Certainly not. Even though Canada and France have much better > funding > >> programs than the United States, they still have their faults. > >> Does that > >> mean we should scrap them? Well, they have certainly contributed > >> to Canadian > >> arts and poetry being more interesting than the majority of US > arts. > >> > >> Finally, many of the programs you are listed had already been > enacted > >> before Hitler's rise to power. National health care had for > >> example been > >> implemented by Bismarck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) > and > >> unemployment compensation in 1927 at the national level. The > >> L=E4ndern had > >> their own programs before it was made a federal law. > >> > >> fran=E7ois luong > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Troy Camplin > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:42:35 PM > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> Much of the great monuments were in fact made with slave labor? > >> Does that > >> then argue for slave labor for other massive works? Yes, many of > >> our great > >> works of art were government-funded, and government funds come > >> from somebody > >> with power having enough power to take money from weaker people. > >> To me, that > >> argues against that method, no matter how successful it has been > >> in the > >> past. It's not magical thinking to believe there better, non- > >> coercive ways > >> to fund the arts, and that we should try to use and develop > those. > >> The > >> market is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and > >> can be > >> another. Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of > >> government. > >> > >> And fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is > corporate > >> socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for everyone > >> here. There > >> are different kinds of socialism, you know -- it doesn't have to > be > >> communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's version looked like: > he > >> suspended > >> the gold standard, embarked on huge public works programs like > >> Autobahns, > >> protected industry from foreign competition, expanded credit, > >> instituted > >> jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices and > production > >> decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital > controls, > >> instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about > >> national health > >> care and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and > >> eventually > >> ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the kind of economy our > >> government > >> has been actively trying to set up for a while now, though it's > been > >> accelerating quite a bit of late.. > >> > >> Those who support government funding of the arts naively think > >> that they > >> will always have their people in charge and that therefore they > >> will be the > >> ones getting the funding. But you can't count on being in charge > in a > >> democratic country -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. > I > >> prefer to > >> keep the government out of the arts completely, so there is far > >> less danger > >> of coercion or censorship -- direct or indirect. > >> > >> Troy Camplin > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Fran=E7ois Luong > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to > >> learn > >> what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do that > >> education, > >> Troy? The marketing department? I think we already have such > >> situation. I > >> mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because they > >> have a > >> bigger marketing department than say, New Model Army? > >> > >> In all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. > >> There is no > >> account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free > >> market. What you > >> base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonable, > >> two, that > >> reason will lead them toward goodness. There are however no > >> evidence for > >> this assertion, much like there is no evidence for the free > market > >> being > >> able to nurture art as we understand it. In the contrary, state- > >> funded art > >> goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, > for > >> example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of > >> France? An > >> example of an artistic situation within a free market context? > Try > >> Germany > >> in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in their > name > >> does not > >> make them socialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp > >> proves it), > >> with the painters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted > >> because their > >> art was not marketable to the German populace. > >> > >> fran=E7ois luong > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Troy Camplin > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> You only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in > >> agreement > >> with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm looking > for > >> in high > >> art. What you missed was what came after the comma. The market > >> also allows > >> for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good and > >> what is not > >> good. The same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement > >> would be > >> terribly disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he > >> went to > >> visit. There is a difference between what people like in a > general > >> sort of > >> way and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. My > wife, > >> for > >> example, thinks that opera is literally the best way to spend an > >> evening. > >> But she also listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my > >> posting, you > >> will note that I differentiate between what the market does in > >> allowing for > >> niches and true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the > >> majority. In that > >> case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This > is > >> precisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting > >> the arts. > >> > >> Troy Camplin > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: John Cunningham > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of > poker > >> playing > >> dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic > >> merit"! > >> There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. > >> If it had > >> been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as > the > >> Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of > >> legislation > >> ever and popular support was vastly against it. > >> John Herbert Cunningham > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > >> Behalf Of Troy Camplin > >> Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV..BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The > >> market is > >> in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to > the > >> horror > >> of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to > have > >> access > >> to > >> works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would > >> only listen > >> to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, > we > >> would > >> only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm > guessing > >> something > >> along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market > can I > >> listen > >> to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the > >> reasons why I > >> set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage > of > >> the arts > >> -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, > yes; > >> collectivist egalitarianism, no. > >> > >> Troy Camplin > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Marcus Bales > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> > >> The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a > free > >> market > >> is a good > >> judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in > an > >> untenable position: > >> he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, > >> and that > >> some people > >> can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, > >> one that > >> will get him in a > >> lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with > >> Troy as an > >> equality-hater. > >> Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better > than > >> others, > >> or some > >> poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! > >> > >> You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? > >> > >> Marcus > >> > >> > >> On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: > >> > >> Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 > >> Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" > >> > >> From: Paul Nelson > >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> > >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false > dich > >>> Troy, > >>> > >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false > >>> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I > was > >>> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good > judge > >>> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I > have > >>> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. > >>> > >>> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we > can > >>> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part > of > >>> the gift economy. > >>> > >>> from Wikipedia: > >>> > >>> > >>> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services > are > >>> given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future > quid > >>> pro quo. > >>> Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate > and > >>> redistribute valuables within a community. This can be > considered > >>> a > >>> form of reciprocal altruism. > >>> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned > >>> economy or a market or barter economy. > >>> In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by > >>> explicit > >>> command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or > >>> market > >>> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or > some > >>> other commodity - is established before the transaction takes > >>> place. > >>> > >>> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a > >>> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda > as > >>> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have > social > >>> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without > >>> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. > >>> > >>> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal > Spending, > >>> starting with the outlays for militarism: > >>> > >>> > >>> Again Wiki: > >>> > >>> > >>> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 > >>> trillion annually on defense-related purposes. > >>> > >>> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in > underserved > >>> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a > >>> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes > much > >>> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you > and > >>> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT > vs > >>> FREE MARKET, little light is generated. > >>> > >>> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some > inkling > >>> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and > >>> Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of > Free > >>> Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory > anyway, > >>> the mission of this listserv. May it be so. > >>> > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> Paul E. Nelson > >>> > >>> Global Voices Radio > >>> SPLAB! > >>> American Sentences > >>> Organic Poetry > >>> Poetry Postcard Blog > >>> > >>> Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: Troy Camplin > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM > >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > >>> > >>> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be > true." > >>> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is > an > >>> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow > for a > >>> wide variety of options. The government does not give you > options. > >>> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't > like > >>> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand > car? > >>> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the > rub, > >>> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be > >>> government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot > >>> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be > someone > >>> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I > don't > >>> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with > whom > >>> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never > agree. Or > >>> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by > >>> democratic vote? How many here write anything a > >>> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? > Similar > >>> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the > >>> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be > determined? > >>> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be > to > >>> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they > are > >>> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if > they > >>> are not successful, how does the government determine who to > give > >>> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, > what > >>> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough > >>> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go > get > >>> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the > history > >>> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any > other > >>> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the > >>> arts.. > >>> > >>> Troy Camplin > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: Paul Nelson > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM > >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > >>> > >>> From: Troy Camplin > >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM > >>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! > >>> > >>> One > >>> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this > >>> list, > >>> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to > the > >>> fact > >>> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy > during > >>> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also > not > >>> going > >>> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If > you > >>> want > >>> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and > good > >>> -- > >>> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating > people > >>> in > >>> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people > have > >>> to > >>> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few > straw > >>> men > >>> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." > >>> > >>> Troy Camplin > >>> > >>> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market > as > >>> any > >>> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be > true, > >>> but > >>> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? > >>> Paul E. Nelson > >>> > >>> Global Voices Radio > >>> SPLAB! > >>> American Sentences > >>> Organic Poetry > >>> Poetry Postcard Blog > >>> > >>> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >>> > >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. > Check > >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: > >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>> Checked by AVG. > >>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date: > >>> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. > Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >> welcome..html > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. > Check > >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > >> welcome..html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > >> > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > >> guidelines > >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > >> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. 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Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:09:00 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Gift Economy In-Reply-To: <0E22608D-D1EB-4A73-9355-6AEC31F77796@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jason, Thank you for shedding some light on the matter, making specific, precise distinctions, instead of hurling around a bunch of shibboleths. Ciao, Murat On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > So because Martin Heidegger was a Nazi the disenchanted Marxist ideas of > existentialism and post-structuralism were founded in fascism? It seems > quite clear to me that you haven't read all of the "French Theorists" you= 're > talking about because you are lumping them together inappropriately as if > they represent some monolith of ideology that doesn't exist. Borrowing th= e > following quote from the wikipedia entry on postmodernism, Judith Butler > pointed out that: > "A number of positions are ascribed to postmodernism - Discourse is all > there is, as if discourse were some kind of monistic stuff out of which a= ll > things are composed; the subject is dead, I can never say =93I=94 again; = there > is no reality, only representation. These characterizations are variously > imputed to postmodernism or poststructuralism, which are conflated with e= ach > other and sometimes conflated with deconstruction, and understood as an > indiscriminate assemblage of French feminism, deconstruction, Lacanian > psychoanalysis, Foucauldian analysis, Rorty=92s conversationalism, and > cultural studies ... In reality, these movements are opposed: Lacanian > psychoanalysis in France positions itself officially against > poststructuralism, that Foucauldian rarely relate to Derridideans ... > Lyotard champions the term, but he cannot be made into the example of wha= t > all the rest of the purported postmodernists are doing. Lyotard=92s work = is, > for instance, seriously at odds with that of Derrida" > > more importantly, looking around at the literary field of the last 40 yea= rs > or so I see in prose generally a marginal group in the vein of > Gaddis/Pynchon/Barth/Coover/Delillo/Wallace et al that is rapidly giving = way > to the sort of thing that Michael Chabon is now up to where the wild > craziness of the high postmodernists is replaced with a more subtle empha= sis > on traditional storytelling and the artificiality of the publishing marke= t > controlled "genres" of fiction. In poetry the situation is much clearer, > where there were poets influenced by philosophers, the most obvious being > the Language poets, many of them are much more involved in anglo-american > philosophy than you are giving them credit. Wittgenstein is an obvious > influence across the board, but probably more important are John Cage, > Gertrude Stein, and Charles Olson, none of whom were formed in the grips = of > anything you might find in the Saussure to Derrida tradition in philosphy > you're pointing at. Ted Berrigan was heavily inspired by Whitehead, and > Bertrand Russeell is the most widely read philosopher that I'm aware of f= or > those poets who read philosophy. > > All of that aside, by my lights, it still seems to me that contemporary > poetry is largely dominated by slam poetry and the sort of MOR > confessionalism that you find in Seamus Heaney, Billy Collins, and their > ilk. ANd frankly the complaints of the reactionary trend to be found in > neo-formalism are much more present in the popular consciousness than > anything informed by Barthes or other critics with his commitments. > > So really, while there is a great deal of nattering by undergraduates abo= ut > poorly understood french philosophers leaking out of cultural studies > departments, i just don't see all this influence that you're talking abou= t > by "French Theorists" and it makes me wonder what it is that you're readi= ng, > because it's not the same stuff I am. > > > On Mar 9, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > > I'm sorry that I don't uncritically accept every idea that comes along. >> Hold, it, wait, neither do you. You just like what I don't, and dislike = what >> I do. That doesn't make me a fascist. In fact, you show you don't even k= now >> what a fascist is, with this statement. >> >> The American postmodernist writers were all influenced by such people as >> Sartre, deBeauvoir, Lacan, Derrida, Barthes, Foucauld, etc. I've read th= em >> all. I like them all. But they have had too much influence over American >> letters over the last half century, and it will benefit us greatly to co= me >> out from under that influence precisely because of the fascist foundatio= ns >> of their ideas and works (see Wolin's works on the fascist foundations o= f >> the postmodernist thinkers in "Heidegger's Children" and "The Seduction = of >> Unreason" and Argyros' "A Blessed Rage for Order" on Derrida). >> >> The ability to judge ideas or their influence as bad doesn't make one a >> fascist. It shows that one is able to think and make critical judgments >> based on observation. The attempt to stifle dialogue by throwing around = the >> word "fascist" to label those with whom you disagree is in fact a fascis= t >> tactic. >> >> Troy Camplin >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 4:40:44 PM >> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >> >> Troy, >> >> "our art and literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being >> influenced by the French theorists." >> >> Why does almost every statement you make must involve the putting down o= f >> another? Are you aware how ridiculous that statements sounds. How much o= f >> American literature, do you thing, is influenced by "French theorists"? = Or >> how much of French literature is influence by "French theorists" for tha= t >> matter? What is a French theorist anyhow? >> >> To indulge in some name calling myself, are you aware demonizing the oth= er >> is the basic mode of Fascist thought, regardless how much libertarian, y= ou >> might image, means liberty. >> >> Ciao, >> >> Murat >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Troy Camplin >> wrote: >> >> I do believe I can make better judgments than any government >>> administrator, >>> yes. Especially if they are working in their capacity of government >>> administrator. Impersonal judgment is no judgment. As for people on the >>> listserv, I believe my judgment is better than some, the same as others= , >>> and >>> likely worse than a few -- but we are free to have those differences, >>> that >>> those who agree that my judgments are better or the same as theirs can >>> support my nonprofit, and those who disagree can contribute to one (or >>> start >>> their own) that better reflects their own taste. The point is that such >>> actions would be voluntary. >>> >>> Personally, I've seen no evidence that France or Canada is turning out >>> superior artists, though I have n o doubt that the French and the Frenc= h >>> Canadians certainly think so. I will admit, though, that our art and >>> literature will improve greatly the minute we stop being influenced by >>> the >>> French theorists. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Fran=E7ois Luong >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:23:06 PM >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> The market already drives more than one art form. As many people >>> Troy, >>> >>> The market already drives more than one art form. As many people have >>> pointed out, the majority of the music industry is driven by the free >>> market >>> at a global level. Is the music industry any more equitable than other >>> government-funded arts? Well, as cris costa pointed out, the only thing >>> that >>> is successful nowadays are "cheap products, made quickly, sold for a lo= t >>> of >>> money," an argument you completely disregarded in your response to her. >>> >>> You also fail to show how a "nonprofit organization such as yours" woul= d >>> be >>> a better way to fund the arts. Are you implying you have better taste >>> than >>> government administrators and/or anyone else on this listserv? Do I >>> believe >>> that "my" people would be in charge of a government art funding program= ? >>> Certainly not. Even though Canada and France have much better funding >>> programs than the United States, they still have their faults. Does tha= t >>> mean we should scrap them? Well, they have certainly contributed to >>> Canadian >>> arts and poetry being more interesting than the majority of US arts. >>> >>> Finally, many of the programs you are listed had already been enacted >>> before Hitler's rise to power. National health care had for example bee= n >>> implemented by Bismarck in 1883 (I might be a year or so off) and >>> unemployment compensation in 1927 at the national level. The L=E4ndern = had >>> their own programs before it was made a federal law. >>> >>> fran=E7ois luong >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Troy Camplin >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 1:42:35 PM >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> Much of the great monuments were in fact made with slave labor? Does th= at >>> then argue for slave labor for other massive works? Yes, many of our >>> great >>> works of art were government-funded, and government funds come from >>> somebody >>> with power having enough power to take money from weaker people. To me, >>> that >>> argues against that method, no matter how successful it has been in the >>> past. It's not magical thinking to believe there better, non-coercive >>> ways >>> to fund the arts, and that we should try to use and develop those. The >>> market is one way. Nonprofit organizations such as mine are and can be >>> another. Both are highly preferable to the coercive methods of >>> government. >>> >>> And fascism is indeed a form of socialism -- even if it is corporate >>> socialism. I'm sorry that's an inconvenient fact for everyone here. The= re >>> are different kinds of socialism, you know -- it doesn't have to be >>> communist in nature. Here is what Hitler's version looked like: he >>> suspended >>> the gold standard, embarked on huge public works programs like Autobahn= s, >>> protected industry from foreign competition, expanded credit, institute= d >>> jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices and production >>> decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital controls, >>> instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about national >>> health >>> care and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and >>> eventually >>> ran huge deficits. In all honesty, it was the kind of economy our >>> government >>> has been actively trying to set up for a while now, though it's been >>> accelerating quite a bit of late.. >>> >>> Those who support government funding of the arts naively think that the= y >>> will always have their people in charge and that therefore they will be >>> the >>> ones getting the funding. But you can't count on being in charge in a >>> democratic country -- or even in socialist utopian dictatorship. I pref= er >>> to >>> keep the government out of the arts completely, so there is far less >>> danger >>> of coercion or censorship -- direct or indirect. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Fran=E7ois Luong >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:16:51 AM >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> "The market also allows for persuasion. People can be educated to learn >>> what is good and what is not good." And who is going to do that >>> education, >>> Troy? The marketing department? I think we already have such situation.= I >>> mean, aren't Shakira and Britney Spears more popular because they have = a >>> bigger marketing department than say, New Model Army? >>> >>> In all seriousness, your argument is based on magical thinking. There i= s >>> no >>> account for naturally occurring taste, especially in a free market. Wha= t >>> you >>> base your argument on is, one, that all people are reasonable, two, tha= t >>> reason will lead them toward goodness. There are however no evidence fo= r >>> this assertion, much like there is no evidence for the free market bein= g >>> able to nurture art as we understand it. In the contrary, state-funded >>> art >>> goes back all the way to the Antiquity. Who funded the Parthenon, for >>> example? Or Leonardo receiving his funding from Francis I of France? An >>> example of an artistic situation within a free market context? Try >>> Germany >>> in the 1930s (just because the Nazi have "Socialist" in their name does >>> not >>> make them socialists. Being in the pocket of Mercedes and Krupp proves >>> it), >>> with the painters of the Neue Sachlichkeit being persecuted because the= ir >>> art was not marketable to the German populace. >>> >>> fran=E7ois luong >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Troy Camplin >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 12:33:03 PM >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> You only prove my point with such statement. Not that I'm not in >>> agreement >>> with you that Dogs Playing Poker isn't really what I'm looking for in >>> high >>> art. What you missed was what came after the comma. The market also >>> allows >>> for persuasion. People can be educated to learn what is good and what i= s >>> not >>> good. The same person who has Dogs Playing Poker in his basement would = be >>> terribly disappointed to find such a work in his museum when he went to >>> visit. There is a difference between what people like in a general sort >>> of >>> way and what people acknowledge to be great works of art. My wife, for >>> example, thinks that opera is literally the best way to spend an evenin= g. >>> But she also listens to Shakira. If you read the rest of my posting, yo= u >>> will note that I differentiate between what the market does in allowing >>> for >>> niches and true democracy, where there is a tyranny of the majority. In >>> that >>> case, one would in fact get Dogs Playing Poker as high art. This is >>> precisely why I'm not a fan of democratic government supporting the art= s. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: John Cunningham >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:50:34 AM >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> Are you kidding, Troy? Only if we want high art to consist of poker >>> playing >>> dogs is the market "the most democratic determiner of artistic merit"! >>> There are times when democracy is the worst possible determiner. If it >>> had >>> been allowed to determine things, blacks would still be slaves as the >>> Emancipation Proclamation was probably the most hated piece of >>> legislation >>> ever and popular support was vastly against it. >>> John Herbert Cunningham >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >>> Behalf Of Troy Camplin >>> Sent: March-01-09 2:21 PM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV..BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> Funny thing is, you're right about the anti-market position. The market >>> is >>> in fact the most democratic determiner of artistic merit (much to the >>> horror >>> of the elitists here), while also allowing room for people to have acce= ss >>> to >>> works that fit their own tastes. In a pure democracy, we would only >>> listen >>> to Britney Spears. Under democratic-government-controlled arts, we woul= d >>> only listen to music that is inoffensive to everyone (I'm guessing >>> something >>> along the lines of 50's soft pop rock). Only in the free market can I >>> listen >>> to Franz Ferdinand and Modest Mouse. Incidentally, one of the reasons w= hy >>> I >>> set up the Emerson Institute was to truly democratize patronage of the >>> arts >>> -- in a way that was 100% voluntary. Equality under the law, yes; >>> collectivist egalitarianism, no. >>> >>> Troy Camplin >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Marcus Bales >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> >>> The problem with Paul Nelson's objection to Troy's notion that a free >>> market >>> is a good >>> judge of artistic merit is that it means Paul has put himself in an >>> untenable position: >>> he's implicitly arguing that some poems are better than others, and tha= t >>> some people >>> can tell which ones those poems are -- it's an elitist position, one th= at >>> will get him in a >>> lot of trouble if he's not careful, and get him lumped in with Troy as = an >>> equality-hater. >>> Be careful, Paul! You just can't say that some poems are better than >>> others, >>> or some >>> poets better than others, without getting accused of elitism! >>> >>> You're not an elitist, are you, Paul? >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> On 26 Feb 2009 at 8:40, Paul Nelson wrote: >>> >>> Date sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:40:55 -0800 >>> Send reply to: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" >>> >>> From: Paul Nelson >>> Subject: Re: Gift Economy >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> >>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false dich >>>> Troy, >>>> >>>> Like most of your arguments, you base your stand on a false >>>> dichotomy. You say if it is not FREE MARKET, it is GOVERNMENT. I was >>>> only responding to your notion that the Free Market is a good judge >>>> of artistic quality. I find that laughable, which is why I have >>>> responded in what I thought was a humorous manner. >>>> >>>> What is lost in the dialog is the notion of poetry (hey, we can >>>> actually get it back to what the LIST is about) poetry is part of >>>> the gift economy. >>>> >>>> from Wikipedia: >>>> >>>> >>>> A gift economy is a social theory[1] in which goods and services are >>>> given without any explicit agreement for immediate or future quid >>>> pro quo. >>>> Ideally simultaneous or recurring giving serves to circulate and >>>> redistribute valuables within a community. This can be considered >>>> a >>>> form of reciprocal altruism. >>>> The concept of a gift economy stands in contrast to a planned >>>> economy or a market or barter economy. >>>> In a planned economy, goods and services are distributed by >>>> explicit >>>> command and control rather than informal custom; in barter or >>>> market >>>> economies, an explicit quid pro quo - an exchange of money or some >>>> other commodity - is established before the transaction takes >>>> place. >>>> >>>> Other cultures (& ours, to some degree, in years past) had a >>>> different idea of the poet's role in society. Paz and Neruda as >>>> Ambassadors, for example. Most industrial democracies have social >>>> safety nets allowing an artist to live a decent life without >>>> becoming a corporate puppet, but not ours. >>>> >>>> I'd like nothing more than a drastic reduction in Federal Spending, >>>> starting with the outlays for militarism: >>>> >>>> >>>> Again Wiki: >>>> >>>> >>>> As of 2009, the United States government is spending about $1 >>>> trillion annually on defense-related purposes. >>>> >>>> Imagine $1B of that going to fund doctors and nurses in underserved >>>> areas. Imagine a new (old) way of structuring economies on a >>>> bioregional (sustainable) basis. The Federal Government becomes much >>>> less of a factor which, it seems to me, is the common ground you and >>>> I have. But when you make fauty premises such as the GOVERNMENT vs >>>> FREE MARKET, little light is generated. >>>> >>>> Charles Olson, William Carlos Williams and others had some inkling >>>> about the importance of the local, hence The Maximus Poems and >>>> Paterson. This, to me, is the link between the discusson of Free >>>> Markets vs Government intervention and POETICS is, in theory anyway, >>>> the mission of this listserv. May it be so. >>>> >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> >>>> Paul E. Nelson >>>> >>>> Global Voices Radio >>>> SPLAB! >>>> American Sentences >>>> Organic Poetry >>>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>>> >>>> Ilalqo, WA 253..735.6328 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Troy Camplin >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:48:27 PM >>>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>>> >>>> Now there's a fundamentalist statement: "the opposite may be true." >>>> The market sometimes recognizes talent, sometimes not. It is an >>>> imperfect arbiter of taste. What it does do, though, is allow for a >>>> wide variety of options. The government does not give you options. >>>> It is a monopoly. You get what they give you, or nothing. Don't like >>>> government-brand corn? Too bad. Don't like the government-brand car? >>>> Too bad. Don't like government-brand art? AH, but there's the rub, >>>> isn't it? Nobody here wants to believe there will be >>>> government-brand art. Except that the government simply cannot >>>> support everyone who says they are an artist. There must be someone >>>> deciding who gets supported. Who is that going to be? You? I don't >>>> think so. Me? Don't think so. This year it may be someone with whom >>>> you agree; next year it may be someone with whom you never agree. Or >>>> should there be a democratic vote? Do you really want art by >>>> democratic vote? How many here write anything a >>>> democratic majority would want to read? Perhaps a committee? Similar >>>> problems arise, just on a smaller scale. In fact, it has the >>>> problems of both situations. How, then, is funding to be determined? >>>> How much funding? To whom will funding go? The safe bet would be to >>>> give it to those who are already successful -- but then, if they are >>>> already successful, why do they need government funding? And if they >>>> are not successful, how does the government determine who to give >>>> funding to, who to support? Based on production? Well, then, what >>>> prevents us from having cheaters, who will produce just enough >>>> really bad art to get the funding just so they don't have to go get >>>> a "real" job? I think about all these things and look at the history >>>> of government support for the arts and cannot come to any other >>>> conclusion that government funding for the arts is bad for the >>>> arts.. >>>> >>>> Troy Camplin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Paul Nelson >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 3:23:54 PM >>>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>>> >>>> From: Troy Camplin >>>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 1:14:23 PM >>>> Subject: Re: The Market recognizes talent! >>>> >>>> One >>>> can always point to people who in your opinion (and, with this >>>> list, >>>> mine) are at best embarrassing. However, one can also point to the >>>> fact >>>> that Picasso, Monet, and Jasper Johns were all made wealthy during >>>> their lifetimes. I may not like Britney Spears, but I'm also not >>>> going >>>> to deprive anyone of her, either, if that's what they like. If you >>>> want >>>> to try to educate people to have better taste, that's fine and good >>>> -- >>>> but there's no evidence the government is good at educating people >>>> in >>>> math and reading, let alone good taste. I love how you people have >>>> to >>>> purposefully ignore facts to make your points. Throw up a few straw >>>> men >>>> (and women, in this case) to try to make a "point." >>>> >>>> Troy Camplin >>>> >>>> I prefer the phrase "People of Straw" but I don't use the market as >>>> any >>>> guide to quality in the arts. In fact, the opposite may be true, >>>> but >>>> when you're a fundamentalist, you say funny things, eh? >>>> Paul E. Nelson >>>> >>>> Global Voices Radio >>>> SPLAB! >>>> American Sentences >>>> Organic Poetry >>>> Poetry Postcard Blog >>>> >>>> Ilalqo, WA 253.735.6328 >>>> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG. >>>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270..11.3 - Release Date: >>>> 2/22/2009 12:00 AM >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome..html >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo..edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome..html >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts.. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >>> welcome..html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> > > Jason Quackenbush > jfq@myuw.net > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:24:01 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Gift Economy - and new query... Comments: To: amy king In-Reply-To: <595772.66476.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-603597764-1236702241=:12443" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-603597764-1236702241=:12443 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Bad argument, good propaganda. Jeremy Bentham wrote a boon on this stuff. - Alan On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, amy king wrote: > Hear hear.=C2=A0 This "lumping" strategy has moved beyond tedious and is = growing grim.=C2=A0 > > What is that style of argument called?=C2=A0 The one where the antagonist= accuses each participant of some condition (labels, in this case), so that= the "discussion" is really only so much repetitive accusatory posturing on= one side demanding a defense from the other?=C2=A0 > > And the antagonist is, of course, never wrong as he selectively ignores c= onstructive, valid arguments in favor of further generalized, wrong-headed = labels, maintaining his cyclical stance in order to appear to hold the "upp= er hand" (i.e.=C2=A0 "I didn't do that; I was merely pointing out ... you'r= e the one who generalizes!")... > > Trying. to. figure. it. out. > > http://home.tiac.net/~cri_d/cri/1998/argue.html=C2=A0 redux. > > _______ > > > > > > Amy's Alias > > http://amyking.org/ > > Re: Gift Economy > > From: Jason Quackenbush > > Reply-To:Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > > Date:Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:52:13 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So because Martin Heidegger was a Nazi the disenchanted Marxist ideas > of existentialism and post-structuralism were founded in fascism? It > seems quite clear to me that you haven't read all of the "French > Theorists" you're talking about because you are lumping them together > inappropriately as if they represent some monolith of ideology that > doesn't exist. Borrowing the following quote from the wikipedia entry > on postmodernism, Judith Butler pointed out that: > "A number of positions are ascribed to postmodernism - Discourse is > all there is, as if discourse were some kind of monistic stuff out of > which all things are composed; the subject is dead, I can never say > =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=9D again; there is no reality, only representation. Thes= e > characterizations are variously imputed to postmodernism or > poststructuralism, which are conflated with each other and sometimes > conflated with deconstruction, and understood as an indiscriminate > assemblage of French feminism, deconstruction, Lacanian > psychoanalysis, Foucauldian analysis, Rorty=E2=80=99s conversationalism, = and > cultural studies ... In reality, these movements are opposed: > Lacanian psychoanalysis in France positions itself officially against > poststructuralism, that Foucauldian rarely relate to Derridideans ... > Lyotard champions the term, but he cannot be made into the example of > what all the rest of the purported postmodernists are doing. > Lyotard=E2=80=99s work is, for instance, seriously at odds with that of D= errida" > > more importantly, looking around at the literary field of the last 40 > years or so I see in prose generally a marginal group in the vein of > Gaddis/Pynchon/Barth/Coover/Delillo/Wallace et al that is rapidly > giving way to the sort of thing that Michael Chabon is now up to > where the wild craziness of the high postmodernists is replaced with > a more subtle emphasis on traditional storytelling and the > artificiality of the publishing market controlled "genres" of > fiction. In poetry the situation is much clearer, where there were > poets influenced by philosophers, the most obvious being the Language > poets, many of them are much more involved in anglo-american > philosophy than you are giving them credit. Wittgenstein is an > obvious influence across the board, but probably more important are > John Cage, Gertrude Stein, and Charles Olson, none of whom were > formed in the grips of anything you might find in the Saussure to > Derrida tradition in philosophy you're pointing at. Ted Berrigan was > heavily inspired by Whitehead, and Bertrand Russell is the most > widely read philosopher that I'm aware of for those poets who read > philosophy. > > All of that aside, by my lights, it still seems to me that > contemporary poetry is largely dominated by slam poetry and the sort > of MOR confessionalism that you find in Seamus Heaney, Billy Collins, > and their ilk. ANd frankly the complaints of the reactionary trend to > be found in neo-formalism are much more present in the popular > consciousness than anything informed by Barthes or other critics with > his commitments. > > So really, while there is a great deal of nattering by undergraduates > about poorly understood french philosophers leaking out of cultural > studies departments, i just don't see all this influence that you're > talking about by "French Theorists" and it makes me wonder what it is > that you're reading, because it's not the same stuff I am. > > On Mar 9, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Troy Camplin wrote: > >> I'm sorry that I don't uncritically accept every idea that comes >> along. Hold, it, wait, neither do you. You just like what I don't, >> and dislike what I do. That doesn't make me a fascist. In fact, you >> show you don't even know what a fascist is, with this statement. >> >> The American postmodernist writers were all influenced by such >> people as Sartre, deBeauvoir, Lacan, Derrida, Barthes, Foucauld, >> etc. I've read them all. I like them all. But they have had too >> much influence over American letters over the last half century, >> and it will benefit us greatly to come out from under that >> influence precisely because of the fascist foundations of their >> ideas and works (see Wolin's works on the fascist foundations of >> the postmodernist thinkers in "Heidegger's Children" and "The >> Seduction of Unreason" and Argyros' "A Blessed Rage for Order" on >> Derrida). >> >> The ability to judge ideas or their influence as bad doesn't make >> one a fascist. It shows that one is able to think and make critical >> judgments based on observation. The attempt to stifle dialogue by >> throwing around the word "fascist" to label those with whom you >> disagree is in fact a fascist tactic. >> >> Troy Camplin > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ | To access the Odyssey exhibition The Accidental Artist: | http://slurl.com/secondlife/Odyssey/48/12/22 | Webpage (directory) at http://www.alansondheim.org | sondheim@panix.com, sondheim@gmail.org, tel US 718-813-3285 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --0-603597764-1236702241=:12443-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:13:33 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: new on Tinfish Editor blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please see http://tinfisheditor.blogspot.com Recent postings: * Harvey Hix's 20 questions about poetry * Witi Ihimaera and students * Reading the Small Press as Argument, Not Instance(... * God Bless (the ex-president): Skyping Harvey Hix * Teaching with Skype: Mark Nowak aloha, Susan ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 07:58:59 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Looking for July Renegade Press Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I'm looking for a non-NYC press that we haven't hosted before to host =20= the levy lives series event on Tues. July 28. Below's the formal =20 invite, please email me if you're interested: editor@boogcity.com best, David --------- Hi, David Kirschenbaum here. I=92m the editor and publisher of Boog City, a =20= New York City-based small press and community newspaper now in its =20 18th year. I=92d like to invite your press to take part in year six of =20= our =93d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press=94 series. The series is held at Chelsea=92s ACA Galleries (http://=20 acagalleries.com/), which is owned by the son-in-law and daughter of =20 the poet Simon Perchik. It=92s a nice space, and we fit 100 people, =20 including a nine-piece jazz flash orchestra, in it for Chax Press=92s =20= event, with plenty of room to spare. The gallery provides wine and =20 other beverages, and cheese and crackers and hummus and chips. Once a month I have a different non-NYC press host and feature three =20 or more of their authors to read (we=92ve had as many as 10 for one =20 press and usually have 3-6) for 60 minutes total. We also have a =20 musical act perform two 15-20 minute sets. If the visiting press is =20 able to book the musical act that=92s preferred, so it=92s truly their =20= night, if not I can book one that I think will work well with the =20 night. (Also, once a year we play host to our NYC brethren.) The series is held on the last Tuesday of each month at 6:00 p.m. If =20 you=92re game to partake, I'd like you to host the final event of the =20= season, Tues. July 28. We started the series in August 2003. In our first six seasons we=92ve =20= hosted (or are about to host): (locations are at the time of the event) **Non-NYC levy lives presses, 2003 to present a+bend press (Davis, Calif.), Jill Stengel, ed. above/ground press (Ottawa, Canada), Rob McLennan, ed. Aerial Magazine/Edge Books (Washington, D.C.), Rod Smith, ed. Ahadada Books (Burlington, Canada), Jesse Glass and Daniel Sendecki, =20 eds. Ahsahta Press (Boise, Idaho), Janet Holmes, ed. Ambit/Furniture Press (Baltimore), Christophe Casamassima, ed. Anchorite Editions (Albany, N.Y.), Chris Rizzo, ed. Antennae (Chicago and Berlin), Jesse Seldess, ed. Atelos Publishing Project (Berkeley, Calif.), Lyn Hejinian and Travis =20= Ortiz, eds. Atticus Finch Chapbooks (Seattle), Michael Cross, ed. Big Game Books (Washington, D.C.), Maureen Thorson, ed. Bird Dog (Seattle), Sarah Mangold, ed. BlazeVOX Books (Kenmore, N.Y.), Geoffrey Gatza, ed. BookThug (Toronto, Canada), Jay Millar, ed. Braincase Press (Northampton, Mass.), Noah Eli Gordon. Burning Deck Press (Providence, R.I.), 45th anniversary party, =20 Rosmarie and Keith Waldrop, eds. The Canary (Kemah, Texas), Joshua Edwards, Anthony Robinson, and Nick Twemlow, eds. Carve (Cambridge, Mass.), Aaron Tieger, ed. Chax Press (Tucson, Ariz.), 20th anniversary party, Charles Alexander, =20= ed. Combo (Providence, R.I.), Michael Magee, ed. Conundrum (Chicago), Kerri Sonnenberg, ed. Corollary Press (Philadelphia), Juliette Lee, ed. Critical Documents/Plantarchy (Oxford, Ohio), Justin Katko, ed. Cy Press (Cincinnati), Dana Ward, ed. Dos Press (Maxwell, Texas), C.J. Martin and Julia Drescher, eds. Ducky (Philadelphia), Scott Edward Anderson, Dennis DiClaudio, Tom =20 Hartman, and Jason Toogood, eds. Duration Press (San Rafael, Calif.), Jerrold Shiroma, ed. Dusie Press (Switzerland), Susana Gardner, ed. Ecopoetics (Lewiston, Maine), Jonathan Skinner, ed. Effing Press (Austin, Texas), Scott Pierce, ed. Fewer & Further Press (Wendell, Mass.), Jess Mynes, ed. Firewheel Editions/Sentence, a magazine (Danbury, Conn.), Brian Clements, ed. Habenicht Press (San Francisco), David Hadbawnik, ed. House Press (Chicago, Buffalo, New York City), Eric Gelsinger, founder. Instance Press (Boulder, Colo.; New York City; Oakland, Calif.), Stacy Szymaszek, co-ed. Ixnay Press (Philadelphia), Chris and Jenn McCreary, eds. Katalanch=E9 Press (Cambridge, Mass.), Michael Carr and Dorothea Lasky, =20= eds. Kelsey Street Press (Berkeley, Calif.), 30th anniversary party, Patricia Dienstfrey and Rena Rosenwasser, eds. Kenning Editions (Berkeley, Calif.), Patrick Durgin, ed. Meritage Press (San Francisco/St. Helena, Calif.), Eileen Tabios, ed. Minor/American (Durham, N.C.), Elise Ficarra and Kathryn Pringle, eds. Mooncalf Press (Philadelphia), CAConrad, ed. Narrow House Recordings (Gwyn Oak, Md.), Justin Sirois, ed. New American Writing (Mill Valley, Calif.), Maxine Chernoff and Paul Hoover, eds., O Books (Oakland, Calif.), Leslie Scalapino, ed. One Less Magazine (Williamsburg, Mass.), Nikki Widner and David Gardner, eds. Outside Voices (Brooklyn, N.Y.), Jessica Smith, ed. The Owl Press (Woodacre, Calif.), Albert Flynn DeSilver, ed. Palm Press (Long Beach, Calif.), Jane Sprague, ed. Paper Kite Press (Kingston, Penn.), Jennifer Hill-Kaucher and Dan Waber, eds. Pavement Saw Press (Columbus, Ohio), David Baratier, ed. The Poker (Cambridge, Mass.), Dan Bouchard, ed. Punch Press/damn the caesars (Buffalo, N.Y.), Richard Owens, ed. Skanky Possum (Austin, Texas), Hoa Nguyen and Dale Smith, eds. subpress collective, Greg Fuchs, co-ed. Talisman House Press (Jersey City, N.J.), Edward Foster, ed. Talonbooks (Vancouver, Canada). The Tangent (Walla Walla, Wash.), Kaia Sand and Jules Boykoff, eds. 3rd Bed (Lincoln, R.I.), Vincent Standley, ed. Tougher Disguises (Oakland, Calif.), James Meetze, ed. Tripwire (San Francisco), David Buuck, ed. The Wandering Hermit Review (Buffalo, N.Y.), Steve Potter, ed. **NYC levy lives presses, 2003 to present A Rest Press, Ryan Murphy and Patrick Masterson, eds. Beet/Pink Pages, Joe Maynard, ed. Belladonna Books, Erica Kaufman and Rachel Levitsky, eds. Cuneiform Press, Kyle Schlesinger, ed. Cy Gist Press, Mark Lamoureux, ed. Detour Press, Gary Sullivan, ed. Explosive magazine/Spectacular Books, Katy Lederer, ed. Farfalla Press, Gary Parrish, ed. Fence, Charles Valle, co-ed, and Max Winter, poetry ed. Fungo Monographs, Ryan Murphy ed. Futurepoem books, Dan Machlin, ed. Granary Press, Steve Clay, ed. Hanging Loose Press, Bob Hershon, ed. The Hat, Jordan Davis, co-ed. Kitchen Press, editor Justin Marks, ed. Litmus Press/Aufgabe, E. Tracy Grinnell, ed. Lungfull, Brendan Lorber, ed. Open 24 Hours, John Coletti and Greg Fuchs, ed. Pompom, Allison Cobb, Jennifer Coleman, Ethan Fugate, and Susan Landers, eds. Portable Press at YoYo Labs, Brenda Iijima, ed. Sona Books, Jill Magi, ed. Stay Free! magazine, Carrie McLaren, ed. Tender Buttons, Lee Ann Brown, ed. :::the press gang:::, cristiana baik and sara wintz, eds. Ugly Duckling Presse, Anna Moschovakis and Matvei Yankelevich, collective members. United Artists, Lewis Warsh, ed. Urban Folk zine, Dave Cuomo, ed. X-ing Books, Amy Mees and Mark Wagner, eds. Hope this finds you well. as ever, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:17:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Evan Munday Subject: March 14: RM Vaughan at Red Rover Series Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Chicago friends, Celebrated Canadian poet, playwright, artist and arts writer, RM =20 Vaughan reads with multimedia artist Doug Ischar at Chicago's Red =20 Rover Series this Saturday, March 14. RM Vaughan is a Toronto-based writer and video artist. His previous =20 books include the poetry collections A Selection of Dazzling Scarves, =20= Invisible to Predators and Ruined Stars; the novels A Quilted Heart =20 and Spells; and the play collections Camera, Woman and The Monster =20 Trilogy. Vaughan writes about art and culture for numerous periodicals =20= and currently pens a weekly celebrity-pestering column for the Globe =20 and Mail. Vaughan=92s videos are shown in galleries and festivals around = =20 the world. RM Vaughan's latest book is Troubled, a poetic account of the author's =20= disastrous affair with his psychiatrist. With his signature mix of =20 scathing self-analysis and volatile wordplay, RM Vaughan brazenly =20 documents how an innocent flirtation with his therapist escalated into =20= dangerous sexual misadventure. And when the clandestine relationship =20 goes awry, the consequences are heart-rending and career-ending. =20 Troubled is brutally honest and erotically frank, a no-holds-barred =20 confession that is itself distrustful of the language of confession. 'Good lord, what a gorgeous and courageous book! ... [Vaughan] wields =20= the tools of his poetry so well. The language is rich, involving, and =20= evocative. The poems crackle with emotional and ethical efficacy.' =96 =20= Globe and Mail The Red Rover Reading Series featuring RM Vaughan and Doug Ischar Saturday, March 14, 2009 Orientation Center, Congress Theatre Building 2129 N. Rockwell Street Chicago, IL We hope you can make it out for Vaughan's Chicago reading! For more on =20= his work, visit http://www.rmvaughan.ca. Yours, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:19:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #27: The Art of Confession SATURDAY, MARCH 14 7pm Featuring Doug Ischar & RM Vaughan Guest curated by Nathana=C3=ABl (Nathalie Stephens) NEW LOCATION at the Orientation Center 2129 N. Rockwell -- Chicago, IL (corner of Milwaukee/Rockwell in the Congress Theater building) http://orientationcenter.wordpress.com suggested donation $4 Public Transport train: blue line to Western or California buses: Milwaukee, Fullerton, Western & California Chicago artist DOUG ISCHAR received an MFA from Cal Arts in 1987. Since 19= 90 he has taught in the Photography Department of the University of Illinoi= s at Chicago where he is presently Associate Professor. His multi-media in= stallations have been exhibited internationally, in Sweden, Brazil, the UK = and throughout the United States and Canada. Since 2007 he has been produc= ing short videos around issues of cross-generational male intimacy and psyc= hological/social loss. Recently, he has been re-exploring and exhibiting h= is documentary photographic work from the 1980s which focuses on Chicago=E2= =80=99s historic Belmont Rocks gay beach and the San Francisco SM leather s= cene at the height of the AIDS crisis. RM VAUGHAN is a Toronto-based writer and video artist. He is the author of = eight books and a contributor to over 50 anthologies. His latest book, Trou= bled: A Memoir in Poems and Fragments, caused much controversy in 2008 and = continues to stir up trouble. His video works have been shown in galleries= and festivals across North America and the world, most recently as part of= Pleasure Dome's annual Best of Toronto exhibition. He also writes a weekly= celebrity interview column for The Globe and Mail, Canada's national newsp= aper. Please visit http://www.rmvaughan.ca. Red Rover Series is curated by Lisa Janssen and Jennifer Karmin. Each event= is designed as a reading experiment with participation by local, national,= and international writers, artists, and performers. The series was founded= in 2005 by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin. UPCOMING April 25 - Carrie Olivia Adams & Andy Gricevich Email ideas for reading experiments to us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com The schedule for upcoming events is listed at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redroverseries =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:48:02 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: BERNSTEIN + KARASICK | SEGUE @ BPC | SAT MAR 14 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit now this i wd love to see! my regrets to the wonderfabulous poetzzzz! Gary Sullivan wrote: > CHARLES BERNSTEIN + ADEENA KARASICK > Segue Reading Series @ Bowery Poetry Club > Saturday March 14, 4:00 p.m.-6:00 p.m. > 308 BOWERY, just north of Houston > $6 admission goes to support the readers > > The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Foundation. For more information, please visit seguefoundation.com, bowerypoetry.com, or call (212) 614-0505. Curators for February-March: Nada Gordon & Gary Sullivan. > > Charles Bernstein is the CFO of the Center for Avant-Garde Comedy and Stand-Up Poetry. His most recent book is Blind Witness: Three American Operas. > > Adeena Karasick is the 2008 winner of the MPS mobile award, poet media artist and author of six books of poetry and poetic theory. Forthcoming is Amuse Bouche Tasty Treats for the Mouth (Talonbooks, 2009). She teaches Film and Literature at CUNY. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live™: Life without walls. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:26:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andrew Hughes Subject: My new blog... Comments: To: !brian casper , Abbot Cutler , Abbot Cutler , AC Cutler , acezeroacezero@gmail.com, ahughes18@hotmail.com, aleph@sover.net, Alex Carnevale , alisonharney@hotmail.com, Amber Nelson , amyhappens@gmail.com, amyhappens@yahoo.com, Andrew Lundwall , andrew mister , anneboyer@gmail.com, "anselmberrigan@aol.com" , Anthony Cafritz , antrobin@gmail.com, April Bernard , April Koester , aprilbernard@earthlink.com, arlo quint , Arlo Quint , atieger@yahoo.com, bauchesson@gmail.com, boba_lover@hotmail.com, Bonnie Montoya , Brian Brodeur , Bronwen@alumni.brown.edu, bronwentate@gmail.com, buckdowns@dcemail.com, c_animwaa@yahoo.com, CAConrad13@aol.com, CapGun Magazine , Catherine Parnell , ced10@pitt.edu, =?windows-1256?B?/f1jaHJpcyBtaWxsZXL9/Q==?= , Christianna Bennett , Christopher Martin , Christopher Rizzo , "Clausi, Victoria" , coffeewithjack@gmail.com, Cornelia Street Cafe Reading Series , corrine fitzpatrick , Courtney Hill , Crystal Brandt , David Daniel , delraycross@gmail.com, Dimitri Garder , Dustin Williamson , earshotnyc@gmail.com, editor@octopusmagazine.com, Editors@forkliftohio.com, Edmund Berrigan , Elizabeth Willis , Ellen Tremper , Elliot Conrad Conrad , EMCFERRON@bennington.edu, eric unger , eric@hubcapart.com, Espy Foundation , Evan Kennedy , fakesalt@comcast.net, Florian Maier , Florian Maier / planet , fosterpotomac@aol.com, gilesscott@hotmail.com, glas@freeshell.org, HandMeTheScalpel@aol.com, Hot Whiskey Press , houseboatdays@gmail.com, Ian Parfrey , info@lumberyardmagazine.com, Ivan Weiss , James Meetze , Janet Moser , Jason Morris , jason myers , Jay MillAr , Jeff Beam , jen.tynes@gmail.com, Jennifer DePalma , jeremy.lakaszcyck001@umb.edu, Jess Mynes , Jess Mynes , Jess Mynes , Jess Mynes , Jessica Fiorini , jessica nadeau , joe robitaille , Joe Robitaille , John Coletti , john coletti , John Scrimgeour , joseph bradshaw , Joseph Massey , Joseph Mueller , Joshua Baldwin , jubilat , jubilat , Jules Cohen , Julie Agoos , Jumps Journal , "K. Silem Mohammad" , kanderson@gm.slc.edu, Katy Henriksen , kawhop@aol.com, kbergeron@cpg.org, Keith Newton , "Kristen A. Meinzer" , kthorpe@wesleyan.edu, Leah Moreau , Leonid Garder , Leslie Weibeler , Liam Rector , Lisa Jarnot , Logan Ryan Smith , Lorraine Schein , Louis Asekoff , Lucy Carson , lungfull@interport.net, Mac Wellman , Mac Wellman , magic48@usa.net, mairead.byrne@gmail.com, major.jackson@gmail.com, Marcella Durand , Mark Lamoureux , Mark Patkowski , MARTHA COOLEY , Mary Carroll-Hackett , MASchiavo@gmail.com, Matt Hart , Matt Henriksen , matt mcgovern , Matt Reeck , Matthew Henriksen , Matthew Swan , "McCaffrey, Thomas" , melancholia's tremulous dreadlocks , Melissa Broder , Melissa DeGezelle , Michael Carr , Michael Nock , Michael Schiavo , Mike Hauser , mikeayoung@gmail.com, Mingus1986@aol.com, mkorahais@gmail.com, morian.flyer@wolmail.nl, mpatkowski@brooklyn.cuny.edu, muldoon@princeton.edu, Nate Pritts , nhoffenberg@gazettenet.com, Nora a , nora almeida , notknott@aol.com, Octopus Books , otherroomspress@gmail.com, overthevoid@aol.com, Paul Vargas , Peter Gizzi , Philip Angel , Philip Angel , philip.solomon.angel@gmail.com, poetics@buffalo.edu, Polestar Poetry , pressingletters@gmail.com, Profpearser@aol.com, "Rachel C." , "Reynolds, Andrew" , Robert Kelly , russell dillon , Ryan Murphy , saltgrass.journal@gmail.com, Sara Wintz , Scott Pierce , shannon.tharp@gmail.com, Sharan Singh , small_machines@yahoo.com, Sommer Browning , Ssimonds23@aol.com, stefanie low , stefanielow@yahoo.com, Stephen Broll , Susan Cole , Swan_Matt , tdevaney@writing.upenn.edu, tevans21@hotmail.com, They Are Flying Planes , thom mccaffrey , =?windows-1256?B?/VRob21hcyBBLiBDbGFya/39?= , Thomas Devaney , =?windows-1256?Q?=FD=FDThomas_Sayers_Ellis=FD=FD?= , =?windows-1256?Q?=FD=FDThomas_Sayers_Ellis=FD=FD?= , =?windows-1256?Q?=FD=FDThomas_Sayers_Ellis=FD=FD?= , thomas.mccaffrey@sheraton.org, thomasmdexter@aol.com, tightjournal@gmail.com, TyAnn Lee , Vincent Zompa , wheresandre1423@gmail.com, whit griffin , Will Fabro , William Sanders , Wythe Marschall , z@culturalsociety.org, zbarocas@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Everyone... Please check out my new blog and spread the word. Thanks! http://andrew-thenewleft.blogspot.com/ Andy ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jim Andrews Subject: Literary publishers protest cuts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.timescolonist.com/News/Literary+publishers+protest+cuts/1376737/story.html Malahat Review among smaller periodicals facing loss of funding OTTAWA -- A coalition of Canadian poetry journals, fiction magazines and other literary publications with deep roots in the CanLit landscape is decrying new federal rules that would exclude such small-circulation titles as the University of Victoria-based Malahat Review and Matrix from crucial access to funding from the Department of Canadian Heritage. The new Canada Periodical Fund, announced last month by Heritage Minister James Moore and still being designed by government officials, would deny certain federal grants to most publications with annual sales of fewer than 5,000 copies. "The government is improving the way it does business to meet the changing needs of Canadians," Moore said when the program was announced in February. "The way in which support to Canadian periodicals is delivered will be reformed to maximize value for money and to seize opportunities in today's global, technological environment." But arts advocates say that while small publishers could still qualify for some grants from the Canada Council for the Arts, the new funding restrictions would cripple or kill a host of venerable titles that, collectively, are seen as the seedbed of the country's literary imagination. "The new formula would be a huge blow to the small number of literary publishers that depend on Heritage to survive," Quill & Quire, the Canadian books magazine, has warned. John Barton, editor of Malahat Review -- a quarterly prose-and-poetry magazine that sells about 4,000 copies annually -- said his 42-year-old publication would lose about $20,000 a year under the new formula. Barton is spearheading a Facebook-based campaign aimed at pressuring the Conservative government -- which stumbled in its bid for a majority in last fall's election after an arts-funding uproar in Quebec -- to scrap the 5,000-copy minimum for federal grants. In an interview yesterday, Barton called the Malahat Review "an iconic magazine in Canadian letters" and noted that it was the first literary journal to publish Canadian author Yann Martel, winner of the international Man Booker Prize in 2002 for his blockbuster novel The Life of Pi. Among the writers published in the magazine's latest edition is John Steffler, who recently ended his two-year term as parliamentary poet laureate -- the federally appointed figurehead of Canadian literature. The Barton-founded Coalition to Keep Canadian Heritage Support for Literary and Arts Magazines argues that the current funding rules are a "slap in the face" to literary publishers and to the many Canadian writers who "began illustrious, international careers in these seminal if modest publications." Barton said nearly 3,000 writers and readers have expressed support for the coalition at its website in the past few weeks. "There's a groundswell," he said. A statement from Moore's office sent yesterday to Canwest News Service said the 5,000-copy rule was implemented following extensive consultations and analysis that showed "there were significant administrative costs to manage extremely small amounts of funding for extremely small periodicals." The statement added that "there will be exceptions to this 5,000-copy per year rule in some very specific cases (such as weekly newspapers serving official-language minority communities or Aboriginal communities)" and that guidelines for funding "are still being finalized" by ministry officials. "The government takes seriously the concerns of all of our stakeholders, including literary magazines," the statement noted. "Many of these magazines participated in our public consultations on the new program last year, and we will continue to consult with stakeholders as we work on finalizing the details of the Canada Periodical Fund." © Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 13:31:03 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Keith Wilson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed A while back there was a brief thread about Keith Wilson's passing. Can someone give me a mailing address for Heloise? I have a couple old snapshots to send her. Bowering A gerund and your friend. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:19:35 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Deborah Poe 3/18 @ 3rd Wednesdys at Austins in Winter Park FL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Every 3rd Wednesday@ Austin=E2=80=99s Featuring Deborah Poe =20 Wednesday March 18, @ 8:30pm =20 Austin=E2=80=99s Coffee and Film 929 W Fairbanks Ave. Winter Park, Florida 32789 =20 Deborah Poe is the author of the poetry collection Our Parenthetical Ontolo= gy (CustomWords 2008) as well as chapbooks from Furniture_Press and Stockpo= rt Flats Press. Poe has received several literary awards including the Thay= er Fellowship of the Arts (2008) and three Pushcart Prize nominations. Her = writing is forthcoming or has appeared in journals such as Coconut, Diode, = Ploughshares, Filter Literary Magazine, Denver Quarterly, Copper Nickel, an= d FOURSQUARE Editions as well as in the anthologies In Our Own Words (MW En= terprises 2009), Fingernails Across the Chalkboard: Poetry and Prose on HIV= /AIDS From the Black Diaspora (Third World Press 2007) and A Sing Economy (= Flim Forum 2008). Her current projects include =E2=80=9CElements=E2=80=9D (= a poetry collection based on the periodic table), a short fiction collectio= n entitled =E2=80=9CEvent Landmarks,=E2=80=9D and an anthology of short fic= tion. Assistant Professor of English at Pace University, Pleasantville, Poe= teaches creative writing, contemporary fiction and theory. Visit her Web s= ite, www.deborahpoe.com, for more Our very special guest Deborah Poe & Austin=E2=80=99s awesome open mic The People that make 3rd Wednesdays Rock=20=20=20=20 **YOU**=20 Hosted by Lilly=E2=80=99s Open Words ,& Russ Golata=20=20 For directions or comments e-mail me at blacksox@att.net Or phone me at 407-403-5814 Or AUSTIN=E2=80=99S at 407-975-3364=20 http://poetry.meetup.com/362/ In addition her new book Our Parenthetical Ontology Rocks! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:56:24 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Deborah Poe Subject: Handmade/Homemade Exhibit, Workshop and Reading (Westchester County, New York) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (for those of you in the area, hope to see you today...) The inaugural Handmade/Homemade Exhibit at Pace University, Westchesteris on display the entire month of March in the Mortola Library . The mini-exhibition includes handmade, homemade and letterpress chapbooks, one-of-a-kind editions and broadsides. For exhibitor information and information on the accompanying workshop and reading today, see the Web site: http://handhomemade.wordpress.com/. *Bookmaking Workshop/Demonstration, Thursday March 12th at 3:30PM* Artist, writer and educator Jill Magi provides a bookmaking workshop Thursday, March 12th at 3:30PM in the Sculpture Room (P11) in Paton House, Pace University Westchester (next door to the Alfred Goldstein Fitness Center) . *Opening/Reading, Thursday March 12th at 6:00PM* The opening/reading takes place Thursday, March 12th at 6PM in the Mortola Library, Pace University Westchester. Readers include Anne Gorrick, Kate Greenstreet, Brenda Iijima, Matthew Klane, Dorothea Lasky, Jill Magi, Lori Anderson Moseman and Kate Schapira. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:15:08 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project March Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Here=B9s what next week looks like at The Poetry Project: Monday, March 16, 8 PM Gregg Biglieri & Larry Price Gregg Biglieri was born in San Francisco on October 17, 1960. He is the author of Profession, Roma, Los Books, Reading Keats to Sleep, El Egg, Sleepy with Democracy, and I Heart My Zeppelin. Also a noted critic, Biglieri has published essays on Ronald Johnson, Bruce Andrews, Louis Zukofsky, and the sublime. Larry Price has been a poet, a performance artist, a book designer, a publisher and a graphic artist. Born in California, he went to school in Santa Barbara and San Francisco, living in the City until 1988, when he moved to New Jersey, where he lives still, working as the Creative Director in a design studio. He founded GAZ in 1982= , publishing work by, among others, Harryman, Day, Fuller, Watten and Pearson= . His own books include Proof (Tuumba 1982), Crude Thinking (GAZ 1985), No (world version) (Zasterle 1990), Circadium (Ubu Editions 2002), and The Quadragene (Roof 2008). Wednesday, March 18, 8 PM Clayton Eshleman & Robert Kelly Clayton Eshleman=B9s most recent publications include: An Alchemist with One Eye on Fire (poems, Black Widow Presss, 2006); The Complete Poetry of Cesar Vallejo (University of California Press, 2007); Reciprocal Distillations (poems, Hot Whiskey Press, 2007); Archaic Design (interviews, notes, prose poems, essays, Black Widow Press, 2007); The Grindstone of Rapport / A Clayton Eshleman Reader (poems, prose, translations, Black Widow Press, 2008). Eshleman is retired from Eastern Michigan University and continues t= o live in Ypsilanti, with his wife Caryl. They often lead tours of small groups to the painted Ice Age caves of southwestern France in June. Robert Kelly, a poet, essayist, and fiction writer, is the author of more than sixty books, most recently Lapis (Black Sparrow Press, 2005), Threads (Firs= t Intensity Press, 2006) and May Day (Parsifal Editions, 2006). Born and bred in Brooklyn, he went up the river 44 years ago, to Annandale-on-Hudson, where he has taught at Bard College ever since. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.org/become-a-member Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.org/program-calendar The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.org www.poetryproject.org Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.org. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:53:39 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Announcement for Simmon Pettet's Hearth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to announce the publication of Simon Pettet's wonderful new book HEART: Simon Pettet HEARTH Talisman House, Publishers ISBN: 978-1-58498-061-2 $17.95 Paper, 9x6 =93The complete works =97 so far =97 of contemporary American and British p= oetry's most meticulous craftsperson. We dig the purity, dogged love, and artistic devotion of this rare personage. A highly recommended volume.=94 =97Alice Notley =93In these mostly unabashedly lyrical poems Simon Pettet flaunts his proud independence of current poetic fashions, like a dragonfly shimmering and hovering.=94 =97Gerrit Lansing =93=91Heart=92 and =91Earth,=92 the obvious scenery as Simon=92s I-liner tr= ips us through the decades, sometimes blind-embossing a snapshot, sometimes lookin= g at himself observing it, sometimes spattering it with apposite allusion. Take the ride and enjoy the scene.=94 =97Tom Raworth =93The poems of Simon Pettet are placed on continual high alert in a rush o= f subtle coloring. The shadings match those of affectionate curiosity and cut-through street wisdom. Pettet sees through the moment to the words that restore the moment's contours.=94 =97Bill Berkson =93I highly recommend Simon Pettet's new collected, *Hearth*. His poetry is always insightful, ardent, playful, right on the spot, and ahead of the current.=94 =97Joanne Kyger Simon Pettet=92s many books include his *Selected Poems* and *More Winnowed Fragments*, both published by Talisman. He edited *The Selected Art Writing= s * of James Schuyler and collaborated with Duncan Hannah on *Abundant Treasures* and with Rudy Burckhardt on *Conversations About Everything* and *Talking Pictures*. British by birth, he lives in New York City. Simon Pettet's HEARTH is available in good bookstores and Amazon and can be ordered from Small Press Distribution 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley, CA 94710 (510-524-1668) www.spdbooks.org and Greenfield Distribution, c/o IDS 400 Bedford St., Ste. 322 Manchester, NH 03101 (413) 772-2976 www.gdibooks.com Ciao, Murat =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:31:12 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: laura hinton Subject: Announcing Mermaid Tenement Press chapbooks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing 4 new small-press chapbooks, from Mermaid Tenement Press (formerly Tenement Press). They're beautiful! Check out the website: mermaidtenementpress.com. *If I'm Asleep*, by Norma Cole *SOP Doll! A Jack Noh Play*, by Lee Ann Brown and Tony Torn *Rumo*r, by Elisabeth Frost *CounterClock*, by Abigail Child Laura ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 09:39:16 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kristen Hanlon Subject: XANTIPPE on the web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am pleased to announce XANTIPPE has a new home on the web. Currently up at http://xantippemag.net/reviews.html : *Carol Ciavonne on Enthusiasm: Odes & Odium by Jean Day *Brandon Shimoda on Mommy Must Be a Fountain of Feathers by Kim Hyesoon *Jesse Nissim on My Zorba by Danielle Pafunda *Denise Leto on Newcomer Can't Swim by Renee Gladman *Tiff Dressen on Orizaba: A Voyage with Hart Crane... by Stacy Szymaszek *Elizabeth Robinson on Rift by Forrest Hamer *Joshua Corey on The Romance of Happy Workers by Anne Boyer *Lary Kleeman on rimertown: an atlas by Laura Walker *Trevor Calvert on Telegraph by Kaya Oakes *Cristin Bishara on Untoward by Claire Becker XANTIPPE Kristen Hanlon, Editor P.O. Box 20997 Oakland, CA 94620 xantippemag@yahoo.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 23:56:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Last Call to Advertise in Boog City 55; Advertise in BC56 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ------------------ Advertise in Boog City 55 featuring Urban Folk 18 **Deadlines** =97Space Reservations-Email to reserve ad space ASAP =97Tues. March 17-Submit Ad or Ad Materials =97Thurs. March 19-Distribute Paper and next up: Boog City 56 featuring Urban Folk 19 **Deadlines** =97Space Reservations-Email to reserve ad space ASAP =97Thurs. April 9-Submit Ad or Ad Materials =97Thurs. April 16-Distribute Paper This is a quick note to see if you=92d like to advertise and reach our =20= readership. (Donations are also cool, way cool.) We=92ll be distributing 2,250 copies of the issue throughout the East =20= Village and other parts of lower Manhattan; Williamsburg and =20 Greenpoint, Brooklyn; and at Boog City events. ----- Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or =20 upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be =20= reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, =20 advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again =20 offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $80 to =20= $40. The discount rate also applies to larger ads. For our full rate card, please visit: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/boog_city_ad_rates.pdf Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG (2664) for more =20 information. as ever, David --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664)= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:53:29 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: POE TICS Dig 2009-55 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Some MPfreeism for ya... DOUBLE SIDED SINGLES "I don't know about this mixing up of poetry with music stuff" (Or why poetry is so east coast and music so west...) March 10th: Single #1 Helen Adam: Dog Star Run Clark Coolidge: Polaroid 20 http://virb.com/2546310541432609/audio/albums/86036 Coming March 17: Single #2 12th Night Song Variation (eat your heart out Ben Kingsley, etc.) http://virb.com/2546310541432609/audio/408347 Kenneth Koch http://virb.com/2546310541432609 & Don't Forget BEAR STERNS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lolqyPYB1c and SUN HOP FAT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFX3urwph9o&feature=related ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Poetry Night: March 19, Miriam Herrera Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Poetry Night at the Social Justice Center 33 Central Ave., Albany, NY Thursday, March 19 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: Miriam Herrera Miriam Herrera has taught creative writing and Chicano/Latino =20 Literature at the University of Illinois, University of New Mexico at =20= Los Alamos, and at Russell Sage College in Troy. Her book of poems =20 Kaddish for Columbus was published recently by Finishing Line Press, =20 New Women=92s Voices series. Copies will be available for sale. -- with open mic for community poets before & after the feature -- =20 $3.00 donation, suggested; more if you got it, less if you can=92t. Your sun-starved host: Dan Wilcox. =20= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:39:06 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: New from the feneon collective [Unified Body] Comments: To: Poetryetc poetry and poetics , "BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Twelve new faits divers today: http://faitsdiversdelapoesie.blogspot.com/ Thank you for reading, --the feneon collective [Unified Body] ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 13:56:03 -0700 Reply-To: rcmgt@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Rosalie Calabrese Subject: Reading in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE ARGONAUT SERIES #52 (Poets=E2=80=99 Corner)=20 Wednesday, March 25, 2009 at 8:00 PM=20 =C2=A0 Michael Howley; Margie Barab; Lucy Sorlucco; Rosalie Calabrese; Ilsa Gilber= t;=20 Mira J. Spektor; Anje Katcher; Shari Cornutt; Phoebe Hass; Rebecca Dobson= =20 =C2=A0 A discussion with the presenters follows each performance.=20 Refreshments will be served Admission: $8.00=20 =C2=A0 Studios 353=20 353 West 48th Street, 2nd Floor=20 New York, NY=20 =C2=A0 Reservations and Information: (212) 691-6105 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:45:18 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jane Sprague Subject: New from Palm Press: Rob Halpern's Disaster Suites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New from Palm Press: Disaster Suites by Rob Halpern "A paradox sets these disquieting Disaster Suites into motion. They = produce a music--missing in the count now counts as one--reaching for = the disappearance of the conditions that make it audible: war, so-called = natural catastrophe, a public sphere where there is no / Public. As in = the songs of William Blake and the sci-fi of Octavia Butler, these = Suites sing against their own beauty and their seemingly perpetual = present, which is why they seem so strangely archaic and futuristic at = once. In complex patterns of meter and rhyme, Disaster's "I" summons its own = kind of "counting" against the physics of finance and exchange. Yet the = music that results can only be heard--the drowned and the bombed--in = between and against the other tracks which Halpern intricately lays = down: the signing of capital, the burble of mass media, the daily noise = of bodies who work, fuck and love. This stunning book made me fall in = love with lyric poetry all over again."--Sianne Ngai Disaster Suites by Rob Halpern Poetry Paper, 86 pages Palm Press ISBN 978-0-9789262-6-7 $15.00 www.palmpress.org Palm Press titles are also available through SPD, Small Press = Distribution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 08:44:32 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: LARRY PRICE & GREGG BIGLIERI READ AT THE POETRY PROJECT ON MARCH 16th, 8:00 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gregg Biglieri & Larry Price POETRY PROJECT Monday, March 16, 8 PM Gregg Biglieri was born in San Francisco on October 17, 1960. He is the author of Profession, Roma, Los Books, Reading Keats to Sleep, El Egg, Sleepy with Democracy, and I Heart My Zeppelin. Also a noted critic, Biglieri has published essays on Ronald Johnson, Bruce Andrews, Louis Zukofsky, and the sublime. Larry Price has been a poet, a performance artist, a book designer, a publisher and a graphic artist. Born in California, he went to school in Santa Barbara and San Francisco, living in the City until 1988, when he moved to New Jersey, where he lives still, working as the Creative Director in a design studio. He founded GAZ in 1982, publishing work by, among others, Harryman, Day, Fuller, Watten and Pearson. His own books include Proof (Tuumba 1982), Crude Thinking (GAZ 1985), No (world version) (Zasterle 1990), Circadium (Ubu Editions 2002), and The Quadragene (Roof 2008). The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:17:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Wednesday / Kimiko Hahn & Tracie Morris / Columbia College Chicago Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit KIMIKO HAHN & TRACIE MORRIS POETRY READING Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:30 p.m. Columbia College Chicago Sherwood Conservatory Recital Hall, 1312 South Michigan Avenue Sponsored by the English Department Free and open to the public KIMIKO HAHN is the author of seven collections of poetry, including The Unbearable Heart which received an American Book Award; Earshot, a Theodore Roethke Memorial Prize and an Association of Asian American Studies Award; and most recently, The Narrow Road to the Interior (W.W. Norton, 2006). The latter—whose title is stolen from the haiku master, Basho—consists of work inspired by Japanese classical forms. She has also written for film; the latest, Everywhere At Once, was narrated by Jeanne Moreau and presented at The Cannes and Tribeca Film Festivals. Hahn has taught in the MFA Programs at N.Y.U. and the University of Houston and is currently a Distinguished Professor in the English Department and MFA Program at Queens College, The City University of New York. She is working on a new collection, Toxic Flora, poems prompted by science articles. TRACIE MORRIS is an interdisciplinary poet who has worked extensively as a sound poet, bandleader and multimedia performer. Her sound installations have been presented at the Whitney Biennial and the Jamaica Center for Arts and Learning. Tracie is the recipient of numerous awards for poetry and performance and has contributed to, and been written about in, several anthologies of literary criticism. She holds an MFA from Hunter College and a PhD from New York University. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:36:07 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Anny Ballardini Subject: The Poets' Corner: Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All poems begin as =91word clouds=92 in the mind. *James Finnegan* from *Ursprache * * * A long due update of the Poets=92 Corner with excellent Authors. Enjoy. *Wendy Taylor Carlisle * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D321 *Tim Mayo * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D323 * * *Charles Bernstein * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D324 *Lars Palm * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D325 *George Bowering * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D326 *Francesco Levato * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D327 *Lois Roma-Deeley * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D328 *Laura Kennelly * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D330 *Ned Condini * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D331 *John M. Bennett * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D332 *Alexander Jorgensen * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D334 *Tom Savage * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D335 *Ada Jill Schneider * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D336 *Heather Derr-Smith * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent&pa=3Dlist_pages_catego= ries&cid=3D337 * * *New Poems by already featured Authors:* *Amy King* =96 MEN BY THE LIPS OF WOMEN http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2694 *Bob Gurmman* - DivisionOfMagic http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2719 *Jill Chan* =96 Not Even Us http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2847 Nature http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2848 None That Cannot Be Said http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2849 Faith http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2850 *Tad Richards* =96 situations Episode XXI http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2892 *Larry Jaffe* =96 A RENAISSANCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2894 HEMORRHAGING http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2895 ODE TO GALLANTRY http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2896 LAUGH WITH ME http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2897 AESTHETIC LIGHTNING http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=3Dprintpage&pid=3D2898 As usual the order follows the one by which I received the contributions, with my acknowledgment to all contributing Poets and Artists. You can acces= s the main index directly here: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3DContent my best wishes, Anny Ballardini --=20 Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=3Dpoetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 21:16:49 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Al Filreis Subject: news from PennSound Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear friends & colleagues: Users of PennSound downloaded 4 million mp3 sound recordings and related media files in the past month. At this point, we are projecting 50 million downloads for 2009. This is far, far beyond what we expected when we created PennSound in 2003-04, and we're grateful that the project is receiving such a positive response. Al Filreis & Charles Bernstein, Co-Directors Mike Hennessey, Managing Editor http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound https://twitter.com/PennSound ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: <20090303.150534.3280.17.skyplums@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > been homeless 40 years > 1st time playing in 40 years > when did he live in europe?? > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan lived in Denmark? Who did I have him mixed up with? I mean what ESPecially? Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford Graves, would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. And I still have them! Vinyl! gb ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 04:54:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ram Devineni Subject: Tribeca Film Festival, Tel Aviv, NYC, Sao Paulo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tribeca Film Festival, Tel Aviv, NYC, Sao Paulo Dear Friends: I am excited to announce that "Vegas: Based on a True Story" has been selected for COMPETITION for 2009 Tribeca Film Festival in New York City. The film is directed by Amir Naderi and Rattapallax helped to produce it. Festival is from April 22-May 3, 2009. More details below. Please join us for several other events being held in New York City, Sao Paulo and Tel Aviv. Screening of films from Rattapallax magazine. March 25, 2009 at 19:00 hrs at Tel Aviv Cinematheque, 2 Sprinzak St., Tel Aviv, Israel. Phone: +972 3 691 7181 http://www.cinema.co.il Rattapallax and PEN World Voices Film Festival. April 27-May 3, 2009. New York City, USA. ------ VEGAS: BASED ON A TRUE STORY. Vegas: Based on a True Story TRIBECA FILM FESTIVAL 2009. Returning to the Festival, acclaimed director Amir Naderi applies his inimitable cinematic style to Vegas. The film takes place away from the glittering strip of luxury mega casinos, but the judgment-clouding greed of Sin City is just as pervasive on the desert outskirts of town, where an otherwise happy family is thrown into turmoil after learning of a forgotten fortune that maybe buried underneath their scrubby little home. Directed by Amir Naderi, written by Susan Brennan, Bliss Esposito, Charlie Lake Keaton, and Naderi. http://www.tribecafilm.com/news-features/features/TFF_09_World_Narrative_Feature_Films.html Sincerely, Ram Devineni Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 11:18:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Martha King Subject: Rachlin and Simmons read April 2 in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Prose Pros presents two memoir/novelists: Nahid Rachlin and Diane Simmons Hosted by Martha King and Elinor Nauen Thursday, April 2 @ 6:30 Rachlin is the author of *Persian Girls;* Simmons is author of *Dreams Like Thunder.* Lounge at The Telephone Bar & Grill 149 Second Avenue, btw 9th and 10th Streets Free but contributions are requested | 212.529.5000 | gpwitd@aol.com or Elinor@ElinorNauen.com Subway: All trains to Union Square, 6 to Astor Place, F to Second Avenue ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:16:57 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: Mac Low on Poems & Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of you might be interested in a posting today on my blog = poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com of an exchange of email letters circa 2003 = with Jackson Mac Low. The exchange, most notably on Jackson's part, = goes from a discussion of compositional methods for his Light Poems to = other matters of a political and personal nature. This is my 110th = posting since last June, an ongoing attempt to empty my archives and, = particularly when I post the work of others close to me, to get = something like the pleasure I've gotten in constructing anthologies and = magazines. =20 Other recent postings: =20 El Corno Emplumado: Tribute Poem Henry Munn: from "The Uniqueness of Mar=EDa Sabina" The Art in Poetry & the Poetry in Art, Part 2: Kurt Schwitters Reconfiguring Romanticism (25): William Everson on Robert Duncan's = romanticism & modernism Julian Beck: the state will be served even by poets Diane Rothenberg: The Economic Memories of Harry Watt (Part One) Jerome Rothenberg "If the work of another =20 1026 San Abella translates my dream, Encinitas, CA 92024 his work is mine." =20 (760) 436-9923 F. Picabia =20 jrothenberg@cox.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 04:31:15 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Naomi Buck Palagi and Emily Pettit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out some stunning stuff from two new faces: Naomi Buck Palagi and Emi= ly Pettit. This is on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 =A0 =A0 New Blazevox book, "Chimes": http://www.blazevox.org/bk-af.htm =A0 Poems from "Chimes": http://www.scottishpoetryreview.com/poems/fieled.htm=20 =A0 Peace Out!! Ad=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:54:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Boog Reader Pamphlet Series Online Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Boog Reader's straight from the archives and now online: BR2: Katie Degentesh's I Didn't Build This Machine http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br02.pdf BR3: For Kurt on His 37th Birthday At 2:06 a.m. on Feb. 17, 2004 I emailed 51 poets asking them for Nirvana acrostics by 3 p.m. that same day, three days before what would have been Kurt Cobain's 37th birthday and a live performance of Nirvana's In Utero Boog was putting on. These 13 writers met the call: Todd Colby, Sean Cole, Shanna Compton, Jordan Davis, Erica Kaufman, Aaron Kiely, Thurston Moore, Lee Ranaldo, Tony Rubin, Alan Semerdjian, Jill Stengel, Edwin Torres, Dana Ward, Ian Wilder, and Stephanie Young. http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br03.pdf the flipbook BR4: Bruce Andrews' C-Three / Betsy Andrews' In Trouble http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br04.pdf BR6: Dana Ward's I Didn't Build This Machine http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br06.pdf BR7: Stephanie Young's Hiding in the Hidden Surplus http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br07.pdf And read these other Boog Reader pamphlets already online: BR5: Erica Kaufman's The Kickboxer Suite http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br05.pdf and the flipbook BR8: Bill Luoma's Dear Filesystem Panic / Juliana Spahr's Gender Trouble http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogreaders/br08.pdf enjoy, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:08:56 -0700 Reply-To: jkarmin@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: March 20 - Come Together: Imagine Peace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii COME TOGETHER: IMAGINE PEACE a reading for peace FRIDAY, MARCH 20 7pm THE LIT 2570 Superior Avenue Cleveland, Ohio http://www.the-lit.org WRITERS Bree, John Burroughs, Alice Cone, Michael Fiala, Stephen Haven, Jennifer Karmin, Jack McGuane, Ray McNeice, Philip Metres, Robert Miltner, Michael Salinger, Leonard Shelton, Ann Smith, Larry Smith, Andrew Summerson & Mary Weems celebrating the new anthology from Bottom Dog Press. http://www.spdbooks.org/Products/20253/come-together-imagine-peace.aspx ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:24:35 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Ellis Subject: Grenier's rhymms In-Reply-To: <6fc49d980903150818j73790e20wd8e744e15896acd9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The first person I receive $20 cash from gets Pavement Saw's 4-color 1996 p= ublication of twelve of Bob Grenier's rhymms=2C printed as individual=2C un= collated sheets in a 9 x 12 manilla envelope. =20 Stephen Ellis 71 Elmwood Ave.=2C apt. 15 Burlington=2C VT 05401 =20 Ciao. EMAILING FOR THE GREATER GOOD Join me =20 > Date: Sun=2C 15 Mar 2009 11:18:26 -0400 > From: gpwitd2@GMAIL.COM > Subject: Rachlin and Simmons read April 2 in NYC > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Prose Pros presents two memoir/novelists: > Nahid Rachlin and Diane Simmons > Hosted by Martha King and Elinor Nauen >=20 > Thursday=2C April 2 @ 6:30 >=20 > Rachlin is the author of *Persian Girls=3B* Simmons is author of *Dreams = Like > Thunder.* >=20 > Lounge at The Telephone Bar & Grill > 149 Second Avenue=2C btw 9th and 10th Streets > Free but contributions are requested | 212.529.5000 | gpwitd@aol.com or > Elinor@ElinorNauen.com > Subway: All trains to Union Square=2C 6 to Astor Place=2C F to Second Ave= nue >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:10:06 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jerome Rothenberg Subject: launches & readings Comments: To: "Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To anyone in the vicinity of New York and Boston who might be = interested: =20 Diane Rothenberg and I will be traveling again - between March 19 and = April 11 - staying with Ellen Zweig on Hudson Street in Tribeca. The = best way to reach us will be at this email address (jrothenberg@cox.net = ) or on our cell phone: 760-415-9889. =20 In line with publication of Poems for the Millennium, volume 3, and the = new book of essays, Poetics & Polemics, I'll be engaged in the following = launches and readings: =20 March 29, 8:00 p.m. at the Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (Between = Houston and Bleecker), a launch and reading with Jeffrey Robinson, = Charles Bernstein, Bob Holman, Pierre Joris, Cecilia Vicu=F1a, and Anne = Waldman. =20 March 30, 7:00 p.m., a reading at Harvard University, Barker Center, = Thompson Room, with Jeffrey Robinson, Gerrit Lansing, and Keith Waldrop, = and a panel discussion with scholars Virginia Jackson and Sonia Hofkosh = (Tufts University) joining the readers.=20 =20 April 2, 7:30 p.m., a launch and reading at St Mark's Bookshop,with = Jeffrey Robinson, Bruce Andrews, Lee Ann Brown, Bob Perelman, and Mark = Weiss. The reading itself will be at the Solas Bar, right around the = corner from St Mark's Bookshop, at 232 9th Street, between 3rd and 2nd = avenues. =20 April 3, 2:00 p.m., a reading and panel discussion at CUNY Graduate = Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, between 34th and 35th Streets, Room 9207, with = Jeffrey Robinson, Mary Ann Caws, Maureen McLane, and Richard Sieburth. =20 I'll also be reading new poems and translations at the Zinc Bar, 82 West = 3rd Street, on Sunday, April 5, at 6:30 p.m., with poet and anthropologist Renato = Rosaldo. =20 =20 A Final Note. For those of you for whom it might be of interest, there = remains a real need for reviews of both of these books, particularly for = a discussion of the premeditated contemporaneity of Poems for the = Millennium, volume 3, something too often missed if the book isn't = actually seen or read. I am open also to future readings like those = listed above and the previous ones on the west coast: San Francisco, Los = Angeles, San Diego. =20 Greetings from Diane and me, =20 JERRY =20 Jerome Rothenberg "Language is Delphi." 1026 San Abella --Novalis Encinitas, CA 92024 (760) 436-9923 jrothenberg@cox.net Blog at poemsandpoetics.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:37:27 +0100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Jesse Seldess Subject: Antennae 10 now available Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi poetics list, I'm excited to say that the new issue of Antennae, though it took longer than usual, is out. Apologies for cross-posting. ----------- ----------- ANTENNAE 10 March 2009 $8 Poems by Frances Richard / Uljana Wolf - tr. Nathaniel Otting Janice Lee / Eric Lindley Christian Hawkey with Georg Trakl / Boyer Rickel Music scores by Joseph Kudirka Performance texts by Corina Copp ----------- ----------- Ordering options: - Online payment through Antennae website: http://www.antennae-journal.com/antennae10.html - Check to Jesse Seldess 1321 Woodland Lane Riverwoods, IL 60015 ----------- Copies of Antennae 9 are still available as well, and can be ordered same as above: ANTENNAE 9 October 2007 $8 Poems/Writings by Tenney Nathanson / Carla Harryman Patrick Durgin & Jen Hofer / David Pavelich John Tipton / Barrett Watten Donna Stonecipher Music/Performance Scores by Travis Just / Carol Genetti ----------- Also note that free pdf versions of issues 1 - 7 can be downloaded from the issues pages of the website: www.antennae-journal.com Thanks and best, Jesse ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 07:57:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Call for Poems: Court Green 7 Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.WVU.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit COURT GREEN 7 Call for Submissions (Dossier: The 1970s) Each issue of COURT GREEN features a dossier on a special topic or theme. For our seventh issue, we will feature a dossier on The 1970s. We would like to see poems on all that decade entailed, as well as the legacy thereof. We are as interested in poems that invoke the icons of and engage with the stereotypes of the 1970s as we are in poems that explore more tangential or atypical aspects of the decade. Poems of all styles and modes -- historical, personal, political, confessional, formal, experimental, regional, global, nostalgic, critical, hybrid, and especially those styles and modes the editors have not yet foreseen -- are welcome. We are not looking for critical/academic works at this time. Submissions for dossier and regular sections of the magazine are welcome. If you would like to submit poems for either or both sections, our submission period is March 1-June 30 of each year. We do not accept more than one submission per poet during our submission/reading period. Please note that we do not accept more than five pages of poetry. Email submissions are not accepted. Please supply a SASE for notification only. Submissions will not be returned. Poems submitted outside our reading period will be returned unread. We will respond by August 31. Submit to: Editors COURT GREEN English Department Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago, IL 60605 Please note: poems sent through submissions services are discouraged and may be returned unread. We strongly encourage anyone interested in submitting to COURT GREEN to read a recent issue of the magazine before submitting. For information about ordering copies of Court Green, please see our contact page: http://english.colum.edu/courtgreen/contact.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:06:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent NOMADICS blog posts Comments: To: British-Irish List Comments: cc: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =97>Switch to Wordpress has been effected<=97 You can read the latest NOMADICS posts here: http://pierrejoris.com/blog Agorapoetics @ Stony Brook U Blanchot=92s D=E9soeuvrement in NY Subway Translating from Arabic A victory for architecture Emergency Climate Change Summit in Copenhagen Nezami Rodrigo Toscano @ Albany U The Bard in Oil Tullio Pinelli, Screenwriter, Ciao! For the Pleasure of it=85 Reminder: Please change your bookmarks to the new address, = http://pierrejoris.com/blog=20 , bookmark that address and I hope that those who have my blog =20 address in their blogroll will be kind enough to change it to the new =20= address. I will leave the blogger.com site up for the time being with the last =20= post showing to give my readers time to switch. Thanks for helping make this switch easier. Pierre ___________________________________________________________ In philosophical terms, human liberty is the basic question of art. =20 -- Joseph Beuys ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Paris: 09.52.80.14.18 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: jorpierre@gmail.com http://pierrejoris.com/ Nomadics blog: http://pierrejoris.com/blog/ ____________________________________________________________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:19:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tom Orange Subject: Logan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit george et al., not sure whom you were thinking of in denmark. there is a 5-minute video interview with logan at also do you mean noah howard? he's still alive, recording and touring allbests, tom orange ----------------------- Subject: Re: Logan From: George Bowering <[log in to unmask]> Date:Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > been homeless 40 years > 1st time playing in 40 years > when did he live in europe?? > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan lived in Denmark? Who did I have him mixed up with? I mean what ESPecially? Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford Graves, would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. And I still have them! Vinyl! gb ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:46:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 03.16.09-03.22.09 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII LITERARY BUFFALO 03.16.09-03.22.09 BUFFALO SMALL PRESS BOOK FAIR=21=21=21 The Third Annual Buffalo Small Press Poetry Fair returns this weekend=21 Saturday, March 20, 12-6 p.m. Visit http://buffalosmallpress.org/ for a full schedule. AND BUFFALO SMALL PRESS POETRY FEST MARATHON READING=21=21=21=21 An all night reading featuring the publishers and authors from the followin= g poetry presses: Slack Buddha Press (Oxford, OH) Bookthug (Toronto, ON) Lil' Norton (Detroit, Buffalo) House Press (Buffalo, NYC, Chicago) Blazevox (Buffalo) Flim Forum Press (Albany, Hartford) Little Scratch Pad (Buffalo) Punch Press (Buffalo) feature reading by Anselm Berrigan at 9:30 PM Open reading slots at night's end Friday, March 20, 7 PM to whenever it ends. Sugar City, 19 Wadsworth, Allentown EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the public unless othe= rwise noted. 03.17.09 Talking Leaves Books, Hallwalls Contemporary Arts Center On the Front Line: State Secrets and Journalist Shield Laws/What's Next: a = Panel Discussion with Attorneys and Journalists in conjunction with the Med= ia Law Resource Center Tuesday, March 17, 7:00 PM Hallwalls Cinema =7C Babeville =7C 341 Delaware Ave. =40 Tupper 03.18.09 Poetics Plus at UB Roberto Tejada Poetry Reading Wednesday, March 18 8 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, 453 Porter Ave. 03.19.09 Talking Leaves...Books/Hallwalls William Graebner Talk/Signing: Patty's Got A Gun Thursday, March 19, 7 PM Hallwalls Cinema, 341 Delaware (=40 Tupper) ___________________________________________________________________________ Congratulations The Winners Of The First Annual Just Buffalo Members Poetry= Contest=21 Jury Prize Winner, chosen by R.D. Pohl: Mark Pietrzykowski, For His Poem, The Mite Audience Prize Co-Winners, chosen at the event: Florine Melnyk, for her poem: John Ashbery and paint drippings at the Albri= ght Knox Carl Schneider, for his poem, Continuo Look for the winning poems in Artvoice in the coming weeks.BABEL __________________________________________________________________________= ISABEL ALLENDE READING ON APRIL 17 MOVED TO KLEINHANS MUSIC HALL=21 INDIVIDUAL TICKETS ARE ON SALE NOW=21 =24100 PATRON LEVEL (Includes reserved seating area tickets plus admission = to pre-event reception with Isabel Allende at Henry's restaurant in Kleinha= ns) =2430 GENERAL ADMISSION (Includes general admission seating to event) Visit www.justbuffalo.org or call 832.5400 to order yours now. SPECIAL RATES (PHONE ORDERS ONLY) =2425 GROUP RATE (per ticket for orders of three or more; must order at the= same time) =2420 CURRENT SUBSCRIBER RATE (current subscribers can purchase as many tic= kets as they like for this special rate) =2410 CLASSROOM RATE (teachers can purchase groups of ten or more tickets f= or students for this low student rate) CALL 832.5400 TO ORDER IN-PERSON ONLY RATE (can be purchased at Just Buffalo or at the event only) =2410 STUDENT INDIVIDUAL RATE (for students with current, valid student I.D= =2E) ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:49:05 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Of course I meant Hoah Howard. I said Noah Webster? Now I am really getting old!~ gb On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > george et al., > > not sure whom you were thinking of in denmark. > > there is a 5-minute video interview with logan at > > > also do you mean noah howard? he's still alive, recording and touring > > > allbests, > tom orange > > ----------------------- > Subject: Re: Logan > From: George Bowering <[log in to unmask]> > Date:Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > >> saw this late he played 2 weeks ago >> been homeless 40 years >> 1st time playing in 40 years >> when did he live in europe?? >> >> > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > lived in Denmark? > Who did I have him mixed up with? > I mean what ESPecially? > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford > Graves, > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > gb > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George Henry Bowering Once saw Alexis Smith plain. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 12:38:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: LA: LMU Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY CONFERENCE AT LMU FOCUSES ON =93WRITING LOS ANGELES=94 What: LAy of the LAnd: Writing Los Angeles When: March 25, 2009 1:30-8:00 PM Where: Loyola Marymount University How do contemporary L.A. writers render the city they call home? What new directions are there in L.A. writing=97is there a =93school=94 of L.A. writing? What role should L.A. writers play during these crisis times in our city and country? Can L.A. authors give the city back the sense of history and identity that =93development=94 so often erases? Two of LMU=92s writer-professors, Gail Wronsky (director, Creative Writing) and Rub=E9n Mart=EDnez (Fletcher Jones Chair in Literature & Writing) have curated a day-long conference dedicated specifically to writers in Los Angeles and writing on Los Angeles=97not as a one-off occasion, but as an annual celebration of the literary arts in the City of Angels. The conference will gather about a dozen writers, both established and upcoming who both live here and represent the city in their work. The presenters will range across the genres=97poetry, fiction, non-fiction and criticism. There will be panels, readings and opportunities to break bread, time for the LMU community to rub elbows with the best of the city=92s literary talent. Among the distinguished company will be the grande dame of L.A. lit, Carolyn See (There Will Never Be Another You), poet and 2008 Whiting Award recipient Douglas Kearney, Los Angeles Times Book Review editor David Ulin, performance poet and MTA diva Marisela Norte (Peeping Tom Tom Girl), historical fiction/noir-with-a-twist novelist Nina Revoyr (The Age of Dreaming), Terry =93the Insurgent Muse=94 Wolverton, a veteran of the poetry scene (Embers), the politicized cyber-punk phenom of East L.A., Sesshu Foster (Atomik Aztex)Los Angeles Poetry Festival organizer and =93unofficial Poet Laureate of Los Angeles=94 Suzanne Lummis, former Los Angeles Times staffer and elegant prose stylist Lynell George, =93Witness L.A.=94 social justice blogger and author Celeste Fremon, novelist and UCLA professor David Wong Louie, Eastside performance writer Raquel Gutierrez. LAy of the LAnd is sponsored by Creative Writing and Syntext, Fletcher Jones Chair in Literature & Writing, Graduate Program in English, Marymount Institute, Denise Scott Fund and the Bellarmine College of Liberal Arts. The event is free and open to the public. PROGRAM 12:00 Opening Reception/Lunch (Marymount Institute) 1:30 Panel I: =93Visibility=94 (McIntosh Center) Moderator: Alicia Partnoy, poet and LMU professor Panelists: David Wong Louie (fiction) Celeste Fremon (non-fiction, blogging) Lynell George (non-fiction) Terry Wolverton (poetry) 3:00 Break/Tea (English Department Village) 4:00 Panel II: =93Invisibility=94 (McIntosh Center) Moderator: Chuck Rosenthal, novelist and LMU professor Panelists: Sesshu Foster (fiction, poetry) Raquel Gutierrez (performance, theater) Nina Revoyr (fiction) Suzanne Lummis (poetry) 5:30 Wine & Cheese Reception (Ahmanson Foyer) 6:00 Featured Reading & Discussion (Ahmanson) Moderator: David Ulin, editor, Los Angeles Times Book Review Readers: Douglas Kearney (poetry) Marisela Norte (poetry) Carolyn See (fiction) --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:03:49 EDT Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: contact query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: For an article on the current state of experimental poetry, I would like contact information [preferably e-mail] for Claudia Rankin; Anne Carson; Jeffrey McDaniels; Sharon Mesmer; Lucie Brock-Broido. Thanks for your help. Best regards, Larissa Shmailo When the going gets tough, the tough turn pro. -Hunter Thompson Listen to Exorcism on iTunes or at:_http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2 _ (http://cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo2) _http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism_ (http://www.myspace.com/larissashmailoexorcism) **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make meals for Under $10. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000002) ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:43:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: last minute gig we need bodies at this one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the percussive word steve dalachinsky & jim pugliese w/ special guests george wallace & nicole peyrafitte 10 P.M. @ the stone e. 2nd st @ ave c (f to 2nd ave. or 21 bus to ave c) for info: 1-212 925-5256 sliding scale 5-10 $$$ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 17:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: mtcross@buffalo.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael T Cross Subject: Atticus/Finch presents: David Larsen's Names of the Lion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends: =20 We at Atticus/Finch are extremely proud to announce the release of David La= rsen's Names of the=20 Lion, a translation of the lexiconographic work of Arabic linguist al-Husay= n ibn Ahmad ibn=20 Khalawayh. However, the word "translation" does little justice to Larsen's = incredible labor on=20 this book. Culled from an interest in visual art, poetry, and scholarship, = the book acts as a=20 rhizome of Larsen's incredible wit, humor, lyricism, and erudition. Those i= n and around the Bay=20 Area will certainly appreciate the necessity and immediacy of Larsen's myri= ad activities. Others=20 (perhaps readers of his indelible book of poetry The Thorn (Faux Books)) wi= ll certainly want to=20 investigate the full spectrum of his poetic activity. Featuring a lengthy i= ntroduction, footnotes,=20 and a letterpress cover transferred from Larsen's original linocut, this bo= ok promises to stand as=20 one of the truly unique objects of the year. =20 Needless to say, these will sell fast, so buy now or cry later! Visit our w= ebsite=20 (www.atticusfinch.org) to take a look at the cover (and a sample page), and= to pay using our pay=20 pal link. You may also pay by check if it is more convenient by sending ten= dollars to the=20 following address: Michael Cross / 3004 East Yesler Way Apt. B / Seattle WA= 98122. =20 And if you live near NYC, please join us on Tuesday, March 31st at 6:00 pm = for the east coast book=20 launch at ACA Galleries (529 W. 20th St., 5th Floor) as part of Boog City's= Renegade Press series,=20 featuring readings by Larsen, Judith Goldman, Thom Donovan, Kyle Schlesinge= r, and music and poetry=20 by Julian Brolaski. =20 All love, Michael =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:25:53 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Announcing With + Stand 3: the red issue Comments: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing With + Stand 3: the red issue From:=A0=A0 "With + Stand" Date:=A0=A0 Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:34:25 -0700 =A0 With + Stand had a fabulous showing at the Canessa Galleryon = Saturday night. The red issue left the evening in droves. Now to mailboxes-- holler if you want your address included in the great shippingout of copies. =A0 We're thrilled with this third iteration: =A0 Spex: =A0 26 poets 36 pages Spraypaint Ducttape Staples =A0 With: Aaron Begg Amy King Anna Vitale Andrew Zawacki Ariel Goldberg Brian Ang Brooklyn Copeland Dana Ward David Buuck Donato Mancini Erica Lewis Franklin Bruno Jen Hofer Joshua Ware Kristin Palm Kyle Schlesinger Megan Kaminski Michael Scharf Nicholas Karavatos Piotr Gwiazda Rodrigo Toscano Rupert Loydell Sandra Simonds Tim Kreiner and featuring Joshua Clover and Jasper Bernes as The Office for Experimental Communism =A0 bios available and pic coming soon at: =A0 http://withplusstand.blogspot.com =A0 _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Evan Munday Subject: Reminder: Lisa Robertson & Sina Queyras in NYC - March 20 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, Just a quick reminder of a great reading happening in New York this Friday: LISA ROBERTSON and SINA QUEYRAS - MARCH 20 On Friday, March 20th, the City University of New York's Graduate Center presents two acclaimed Canadian poets who have both done remarkable things with the lyric essay form. Coach House Books, one of Canada's most noted avant-garde presses, has recently published the new collections Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip by Lisa Robertson and Expressway by Sina Queyras. Robertson and Queyras will read from these brand-new works and participate in a discussion. Lisa Robertson -- Governor General's Award nominee, author of The Weather and The Men and frequent cross-genre collaborator -- visits from San Francisco to launch Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip, a new book of previously uncollected poems essays, drafts, reports, treatises and laments. Toronto's Eye Weekly calls it an 'exuberant, saucy approach to the materiality of language and vice versa.' Sina Queyras -- Lambda Literary Award winner, former co-curator of the Belladonna series and noted literary blogger (lemonhound.blogspot.com) -- visits from Montreal to launch Expressway, her new collection that uses the modes of the Romantic poets to explore the world of modern transportation and mobility. Check out the trailer for Expressway at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui9Qw_RtWRk Lisa Robertson and Sina Queyras in New York City launching Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip and Expressway Friday, March 20 CUNY Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, New York Room 9204 6:00 p.m. Books on sale by Mobile Libris. For media requests, review copies or further information, please contact Evan Munday at evan@chbooks.com or 416.979.2217. Best, Evan ------------------------------ Evan Munday Publicist Coach House Books 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 416.979.2217 evan@chbooks.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 08:25:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: last minute gig we need bodies at this one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve.=A0 Your email about this event neglects to mention what the date = of the event is.=A0 Regards, Tom Savage --- On Mon, 3/16/09, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: From: steve d. dalachinsky Subject: last minute gig we need bodies at this one To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 4:43 PM the percussive word steve dalachinsky & jim pugliese w/ special guests george wallace & nicole peyrafitte=20 10 P.M. @ the stone e. 2nd st @ ave c (f to 2nd ave. or 21 bus to ave c) for info: 1-212 925-5256 sliding scale 5-10 $$$ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:26:40 -0700 Reply-To: alexdickow9@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Another poetry reading in Paris In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lecture de po=C3=A9sie =C3=A0 la Biblioth=C3=A8que Am=C3=A9ricaine de Paris= : Poetry Reading at the American Library in Paris Upstairs at Duroc, March 20th: Poetry Reading with Alexander Dickow, Rufo Q= uintavalle, Alistair Noon and George Vance. Come join us! The reading will = be bilingual, with poems in French and English. Details below. *** Upstairs at Duroc, March 20th: Lecture de po=C3=A9sie avec Alexander Dickow= , Rufo Quintavalle, Alistair Noon et George Vance. Venez nombreux! La lectu= re sera bilingue, avec des po=C3=A8mes en anglais et en fran=C3=A7ais. D=C3= =A9tails ci-dessous. Upstairs at Duroc Reading Date: Friday, March 20=20 Time: 7:30 =E2=80=93 9:00 p.m.=20 Fee: Free=20 Place: The American Library in Paris,=20 10 rue du G=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral Camou,=20 75007 Paris, France Metro: Ecole Militaire or Alma-Marceau=20 Literary magazine Upstairs at Duroc Celebrates Printemps des Poetes with a = reading reflecting some of the many facets of English-language poetry being= written in Europe today. Rufo Quintavalle was born in London in 1978, studied English at Oxford and = the University of Iowa, and now lives in Paris. His poems have appeared in = Barrow Street, The Wolf, The London Magazine, Upstairs at Duroc, MiPOesias = and elimae. A chapbook, Make nothing happen, has recently come out from Oys= tercatcher Press. Alistair Noon=E2=80=99s first chapbook At the Emptying of Dustbins was rece= ntly published by Oystercatcher Press, and his translation of Pushkin=E2=80= =99s Bronze Horseman has just appeared online at Horizon Review. His essay = Translocal Underground: Anglophone Poetry and Globalization appeared in iss= ue 3 of Bordercrossing Berlin and suggests some new terminology for English= -language poetry written outside of Anglophone countries. He lives in Berli= n. Ohio-born poet George Vance was most recently involved in experiments with = word/image fusion, tags & street art. His hybrid language & image video ins= tallation, =E2=80=9CHeights=E2=80=9D, was exhibited in Brussels in 2006, & = he recently designed a =E2=80=98totem=E2=80=99 scupture with a Kanak artist= . Author of Bent Time, a chapbook, his poems have appeared in Paris in Phar= os and Upstairs at Duroc. Vance has lived in Liberia, Austria, Germany, Fra= nce and the French Overseas =E2=80=98Country=E2=80=99 of New Caledonia/Kana= ky The American poet and translator Alexander Dickow was born in 1979. He comp= leted a DEA in French literature in Nantes in 2003-2004, and continued his = graduate studies at Rutgers University in New Jersey. He is now based in Ch= atillon near Paris, and pursuing his dissertation research on 20th-Century = French poetry. In addition to poems and articles published in French and Am= erican journals, he is the author of Caramboles, a biligual collection of p= oems in French and English published by Argol Editions in 2008. *** Upstairs at Duroc f=C3=AAte le Printemps des Po=C3=A8tes=20 le 20 mars 2009=20 =C3=A0 19h30 =C3=A0 l=E2=80=99American Library In Paris 10 rue du G=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral Camou=20 75007 Paris=20 FRANCE Upstairs at Duroc, publication parisienne sur l=E2=80=99art et la litt=C3= =A9rature anglophones, f=C3=AAte le Priintemps des Po=C3=A8tes et propose d= es lectures refl=C3=A9tant les diverses facettes de la po=C3=A9sie de langu= e anglaise =C3=A9crite en Europe aujourd=E2=80=99hui. Interventions de Rufo Quintavalle, Alistair Noon, George Vance and Alexande= r Dickow. Pour voir les biographies des po=C3=A8tes, consulter www.american= libraryinparis.org, ou http://www.wice-paris.org/courses/creative/upstairs-= duroc.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 10:15:15 -0700 Reply-To: amyhappens@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: "The Inspired Word" reading series in Forest Hills, Queens, New York City [on behalf of Mike Geffner] Comments: To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Writers Helping Writers and Tierra Sana Restaurant present "The Inspired Word" reading series in Forest Hills, Queens, New York City. Events are the FIRST and LAST Monday of EVERY month between 7-9 pm (though you're welcome to stay until the place closes!) Free wine tasting! Free appetizers! Awesome ambience and food! And a great collection of writers and their work! Location: Tierra Sana Restaurant 100-17 Queens Blvd & 67th Road Forest Hills, Queens New York City By subway, take the local R or V to 67th Avenue stop (and it's right there between 67th Road and 67th Avenue along Queens Boulevard). All you need to bring is your love for the written word. Best, Mike Geffner Founder, Writers Helping Writers _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:34:28 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Help the Huffington Post share poetry ... Comments: To: "ViewsNewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Huffington Post is looking for "Hard Times" / uplifting poetry: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/verena-von-pfetten/huffpost-readers-hit-it-h_= b_175948.html Very few decent offerings so far -- has poetry fallen so low?=A0=20 Amy _______ =0A =0A =0A =0AAmy's Alias =0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:21:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: At the Whitney: Flarf Versus Conceptual Writing In-Reply-To: <877056.88864.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable AT THE WHITNEY: FLARF VERSUS CONCEPTUAL WRITING On Friday, April 17 the Whitney Museum of American Art presents eight =20= poets associated with two cutting-edge movements in contemporary =20 poetry: the Flarf Collective and Conceptual Writing. The followers of =20= both movements employ technology to create their works, often using =20 strategies familiar to the visual arts: appropriation, falsification, =20= insincerity, and plagiarism. Fusing the avant-garde impulses of the =20 last century with the technologies of the present, these strategies =20 propose an expanded field for twenty-first century poetry. This new =20 writing is not bound exclusively between pages of a book; it =20 continually morphs from printed page to webpage, from gallery space =20 to science lab, from social spaces of poetry readings to social =20 spaces of blogs. It is a poetics of flux, celebrating instability and =20= uncertainty. Featured poets are Christian B=F6k, Nada Gordon, Kenneth Goldsmith, =20 Sharon Mesmer, K. Silem Mohammad, Kim Rosenfield, Gary Sullivan and =20 Darren Wershler. This event was conceived and organized by poet Kenneth Goldsmith on =20 the occasion of the Jennny Holzer exhibition PROTECT PROTECT. =20 Reading begins at 7, and is free with Museum Admission, which is pay-=20 what-you-wish during Whitney After Hours on Fridays from 6-9 pm. =20 Advance reservations are recommended. Tickets may be reserved at the =20 Museum Admissions desk or online at http://www.whitney.org. =20 Inquiries: (212) 570-7715 or public_programs@whitney.org/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:10:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: new texts ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable _______________ Happy St. Patrick's Day, with two new poems : LATENSIFICATION IN OUR TIME ... http://seamascain.writernetwork.com/about.html CUTS INTAGLIOS ... http://seamascain.writernetwork.com/ Best regards, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:12:07 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: last minute reading updated with date MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the percussive word steve dalachinsky & jim pugliese w/ special guests george wallace & nicole peyrafitte and okyung lee 10 P.M. Tuesday March 24th @ the stone e. 2nd st @ ave c (f to 2nd ave. or 21 bus to ave c) for info: 1-212 925-5256 sliding scale $5- $10 On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:12:04 -0400 Evan Munday writes: > Hello everyone, > > Just a quick reminder of a great reading happening in New York this > > Friday: > > LISA ROBERTSON and SINA QUEYRAS - MARCH 20 > > On Friday, March 20th, the City University of New York's Graduate > Center presents two acclaimed Canadian poets who have both done > remarkable things with the lyric essay form. Coach House Books, one > of > Canada's most noted avant-garde presses, has recently published the > > new collections Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip by Lisa Robertson > > and Expressway by Sina Queyras. Robertson and Queyras will read from > > these brand-new works and participate in a discussion. > > > Lisa Robertson -- Governor General's Award nominee, author of The > Weather and The Men and frequent cross-genre collaborator -- visits > > from San Francisco to launch Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip, a > new > book of previously uncollected poems essays, drafts, reports, > treatises and laments. Toronto's Eye Weekly calls it an 'exuberant, > > saucy approach to the materiality of language and vice versa.' > > Sina Queyras -- Lambda Literary Award winner, former co-curator of > the > Belladonna series and noted literary blogger > (lemonhound.blogspot.com) > -- visits from Montreal to launch Expressway, her new collection > that > uses the modes of the Romantic poets to explore the world of modern > > transportation and mobility. Check out the trailer for Expressway at > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui9Qw_RtWRk > > > Lisa Robertson and Sina Queyras in New York City > launching Lisa Robertson's Magenta Soul Whip and Expressway > Friday, March 20 > CUNY Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, New York > Room 9204 > 6:00 p.m. > > Books on sale by Mobile Libris. > > For media requests, review copies or further information, please > contact Evan Munday at evan@chbooks.com or 416.979.2217. > > > Best, > > Evan > ------------------------------ > Evan Munday > Publicist > Coach House Books > 401 Huron St. (rear) on bpNichol Lane > Toronto ON, M5S 2G5 > 416.979.2217 > evan@chbooks.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:35:59 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: Announcement poetry chapbook MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cervena Barva Press announces a new book=20 "The Book Of Colors And Painters"=20 by Korkut Onaran=20 2007 Chapbook Award Winner=20 =C2=A0=20 The Book of Colors and Painters contains a 15 page poem (titled The Book of= Colors) and 6 shorter poems that complete each other. The Book of Colors a= ttempts to create a community of colors, each having its own personality, a= long with the richness of relationships one can find in a community. By mea= ns of parentheses, footnotes, and parentheses in the footnotes, the poem tr= ies to create multiple-voices and depth. The poem is organized like a one-a= ct play with its opening, introduction, development, and closure. The secti= ons - 15 in number - create a rhythm through which new themes are introduce= d and overlapped on the previous ones.=20 Korkut Onaran, originally from Turkey, lives in Boulder, Colorado. He pract= ices architecture and urban design and teaches in University of Colorado as= an assistant professor adjunct. He has received the second prize in 2006 B= altimore Review Poetry Competition. His poetry has been published in journa= ls such as Penumbra, Rhino, Peralta, Colere, Writer's Journal, Water - Ston= e Review, Bayou, and White Pelican Review.=20 =C2=A0=20 Order online at http://www.thelostbookshelf.com/cervenabooks.html =C2=A0=20 The Book Of Colors And Painters=20 =C2=A0$7.00=20 =C2=A0=20 Shipping=20 =C2=A0$3.00=20 =C2=A0=20 Total=20 =C2=A0$10.00=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=20 Send check or money order payable to:=20 Cervena Barva Press=20 P.O. Box 440357,=20 W. Somerville, MA 02144-3222=20 e-mail: editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 =C2=A0=20 Send me______copies of "The Book Of Colors And Painters"=C2=A0=20 Total enclosed: $________=20 Name_________________________________________________________________=20 Street_______________________________________________________________=20 City___________________________State________________Zip______________=20 email_________________________________Phone_____________________________=20 or order online at: www.thelostbookshelf.com=20 Thank you.=20 gloria Mindock=20 editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:39:26 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gloria Mindock Subject: Cervena Barva Press Announces a new book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cervena Barva Press announces a new book=20 "The Curvature of Blue" by Lucille Lang Day=20 =C2=A0 =09 ISBN: 978-0-692-00181-3=20 90 Pages=20 $15.00/$3.00 S&H=20 To order send check or money order to:=20 Cervena Barva Press=20 P.O. Box 440357=20 W. Somerville, MA 02144-3222=20 or order online at: www.thelostbookshelf.com=20 Description: The Curvature of Blue traverses an arc from the personal to th= e social and historical to the cosmic and philosophical. As a scientist and= poet, Lucille Lang Day goes beyond celebration of the natural world to exp= lore the intersections of science, nature, and human experience, and to mel= d scientific accuracy with intuition and emotional response. Whether writin= g about jellyfish, war, or her own experience, she draws attention to impor= tant questions and inspires us to think more deeply about what it means to = be human and how our choices affect the planet Earth.=20 "In Lucille Lang Day's poems, stunning transformations of language cross th= e placenta barrier between the worlds of science and human emotion. She thi= nks and feels in color, enabling us to inhabit the complexity of the univer= se-as experienced at breakfast with a lover, in the wild with caribou, or i= n meditations on acts of historical horror-all made radiant by her lyric gi= fts and wisdom."=20 -Teresa Cader=20 "Intelligence enjoying itself, awareness at play, attentiveness dancing thr= ough life's minefields: smiling at itself in its new black car ("Nor have I= shunned onyx jewelry. That would be foolish"), Lucille Lang Day will at fi= rst glance make you smile and smile again. Then, with her scientist's mind,= her woman's heart, her pain at injustice and evil, and her poet's eye and = ear, she will carry you "through the mountains and canyons of space-time" t= o a fuller humanity. The Curvature of Blue is a wonderful book and I feel l= ucky to have read it"=20 -Alicia Ostriker=20 "Is the sky blue? Day's poems paint it a hundred different ways, full of ge= ometry and change, structure and feeling, as plangent as a sunset, as secre= t as an electromagnetic field. Divine love holds the physical parts togethe= r, even as human love and its marvelous stories are the substance of our li= ves. Here are witty, intelligent, affectionate poems making grand, skeptica= l comparisons and painting us and our shadows in brilliant colors--perfect = poems for our time."=20 -F.D.Reeve=20 Describing the Monarchs=20 "Too bad that 'bloom' is overused," you say=20 As we stand beneath a eucalyptus tree,=20 Your arm around me, head bent back to see=20 The monarchs celebrating New Year's Day.=20 "And 'burn' is wrong, and 'rust' suggests decay,=20 But I like 'bless'" A thousand blessings cling,=20 Each with white spots on black-and-orange wings,=20 To branches unaccustomed to such beauty=20 But burn they do: each tiny, beating flame=20 Lights up the tree, a bloom that's made of fire,=20 Flickering in winter to proclaim=20 A leaf gives solace, milkweed sates desire.=20 They smolder, cool as rust, in spangled air,=20 Then fly like sparks, illuminating the year.=20 Order online at http://www.thelostbookshelf.com/index.html=20 The Curvature of Blue =09 $15.00=20 Shipping =09 $3.00=20 Total =09 $18.00=20 =C2=A0=20 =09 Send check or money order payable to:=20 Cervena Barva Press=20 P.O. Box 440357,=20 W. Somerville, MA 02144-3222=20 e-mail: editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------=20 Send me______copies of " The Curvature of Blue " =C2=A0Total enclosed:=C2= =A0$________=20 Name____________________________________________________________________=20 Street____________________________________________________________________= =20 City___________________________State________________Zip____________________= =20 e-mail_________________________________Phone_____________________________= =20 Thank you.=20 Gloria Mindock, Editor=20 editor@cervenabarvapress.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: damnthecaesars@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: richard owens Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thomas Meyer's Kintsugi available now through Punch Press. "Sit so you don't hurt the grass," says Meyer. "An impossible grace." Robert Kelly remarks in his foreword, "Tom calls the forty-eight threnodic pulses of his observation of Jonathan's dying, his own surviving, by a curious Japanese word, kintsugi, which he describes as the 'practice of repairing ceramics with gold-laced lacquer to illuminate the breakage.' So the very rupture is what is highlighted: the error becomes the meaning of the text." Three-color letterpress on Fabriano wraps. Hand-stitched. Celadon letterpress images appearing on the cover and within the book are based on resin images generously produced for this project by Erica Van Horn in August, 2008 at Coracle Press, Tipperary, Ireland. US orders: $10 per copy Outside the US: $15 per copy http://damnthecaesars.org/punchpress.html ........richard owens 810 richmond ave buffalo NY 14222-1167 damn the caesars, the journal damn the caesars, the blog ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:41:57 -0700 Reply-To: steph484@pacbell.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Blog and Gallery Showing Announcement Comments: To: UK POETRY , "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ Hello -=20 =A0(Recent blog entries - scroll down on the site to what meets your pleasu= re)=20 OBAMA DAY 55=A0=A0 Bluegrass jam at Amnesia, the night club OBAMA DAY 54 A Visit with My 93 year old mom & more on William Kentridge wi= th=A0 an evocation of Giacometti=92s one post-war man, walking OBAMA DAY 53=A0 - William Kentridge, a performance at San Francisco=92s Mus= eum of Modern Art, then Dennis and Barbara Tedlock, Mayan healing practices= and translation at the Meridian Gallery OBAMA DAY 53 - Stacy Szymaszek & Craig Santos Perez read at Small Press Tra= ffic OBAMA DAY 52 - May Castleberry, Artist Book Publisher and Curator, Museum o= f Modern Art, Lectures at the Palace of the American Legion, San Francisco = Museum of Fine Arts OBAMA DAY 51 - Fort Funston, Pacific Ocean, a Meditation OBAMA DAY 50 =96 David Abel & Chris Daniels Read at Books & Bookshelves OBAMA DAY 49 - Thinking of Emily Dickinson, Civil War, etc. OBAMA DAY 48 - The =93Spire=94 by Andy Goldsworthy at the San Francisco Pre= sidio. OBAMA DAY 47 =96 Susan Ung performing Mother and Child, (Viola & Voice), Ot= her Minds Music Festival at the Jewish Community Center, San Francisco. OBAMA DAY 46 - The President labors hard to be clear. OBAMA DAY 45 - The pluralities of the Nation are within us. OBAMA DAY 44 - Beckett, Godot, the Nation & The Tree. OBAMA DAY 43 - The Lake that precedes the lake we know=85 Gallery Announcement! As some know, these entries are from an extended work= : The First 100 Days of President Obama (hatpic drawings & commentary). The sites and sound sources vary from poetr= y readings, museum lectures, musical performances, environmental urban street, rural and domestic locations. The ink drawings are each done on 7 x 10" pieces of archival paper.=20 On April 29th, the 100th Day, the works will be displayed for one day only at Steven Wolfe Fine Arts, 49 Geary Street, San Francisco. In total, the 583 square foot piece will be mounted on one wall. The Gallery will publish - overnight - an almost completed POD book of the drawings and associated texts. On the day of the show, I will create haptics and text for 25 copies on the book's final two empty pages in the Gallery. A further book edition will be printed that will include the final drawings.=20 Thanks for looking in. By the way, if you are in San Francisco on Sunday afternoon, March 22, I wi= ll be reading at Cannessa Park with fellow poets, Tiff Dressen and erica le= wis 708 Montgomery Street San Francisco $3 - 5 and the usual great refreshments Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:23:37 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Janet Holmes Subject: Janet Holmes & Kathleen Jesme March 24 in Minneapolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JANET HOLMES AND KATHLEEN JESME TUESDAY, MARCH 24 7:30 pm MAGERS & QUINN 3038 Hennepin Avenue S. Minneapolis, MN Jesme reads from "The Plum-Stone Game," her SPD bestselling book. "She is refreshingly unafraid of the sensual power of poetry, its difficulties, and its ability to comprehend the larger sphere of being."=97D.A. Powell Holmes reads from "The ms of my kin" from Shearsman Books, a book that take= s Emily Dickinson's poems from the start of the Civil War and makes of them poems about the start of the Iraq War. "In the tradition of Tom Phillips' *= A Humument* and Ronald Johnson's *RADI OS, *Janet Holmes mines or excises Emily Dickinson's Civil War period poems to engender a vision of the curren= t wars in the Middle East that is both a ticker-tape of the spirit and a Spoo= n River Anthology of the soul; that war is war and its words already written.= " =97Tom Raworth --=20 Janet Holmes http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu .. .. .. .. .. .. NEW FROM AHSAHTA PRESS: The Plum-Stone Game by Kathleen Jesme The Whole Marie by Barbara Maloutas (2008 Sawtooth winner, chosen by C.D. Wright) http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:08:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: peter ganick Subject: blog reminder Comments: To: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, Theory and Writing , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, fluxlist@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://pganickz.livejournal.com send submissions to ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 08:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Help the Huffington Post share poetry ... In-Reply-To: <388687.28545.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you want a new perspective on poetic "accomplishment" follow #poets #poems #poetry on twitter... You'll gain a whole new appreciation for what the folks on this list are generating. ~mIEKAL On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:34 AM, amy king wrote: > The Huffington Post is looking for "Hard Times" / uplifting poetry: > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/verena-von-pfetten/huffpost-readers-hit-it-h_b_175948.html > > Very few decent offerings so far -- has poetry fallen so low? > > Amy ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:50:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Doug Holder Subject: Somerville: A City of Writers. The Paris of New England. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Somerville: A City of Writers. The Paris of New England. By Doug Holder Off The Shelf I just read in the New Yorker that the late novelist David Foster Wallace= lived=20 in Somerville for a while in the 80's and even had a "residency" at my wo= rk=20 place (for the last 26 years) - McLean Hospital. I am also reminded that=20= Jonathan Franzen lived here and used to buy chicken wings at Market Baske= t -=20 he was on a low budget. This is just the tip of the iceberg of course. Somerville, Massachusetts, a city on the outskirts of Boston and Cambridg= e,=20 has often been called the "Paris of New England." Maybe at one time, when= =20 the city was a down-at-the heels old industrial town, it was said with to= ngue=20 in cheek - but no more. The UTNE READER opined that Davis Square is the=20= hippest Square in the country, and a study in the tony literary magazine=20= GRANTA reported that Somerville has more writers per-capita than Manhatta= n.=20 In this charged literary milieu, I am able to entertain my passion for=20= interviewing, more specifically: interviewing Poets and Writers. I happen= to be=20 very lucky to be the Arts Editor for The Somerville News, and to have my = own=20 column "Off the Shelf." This gives me a sort of license to tap the rich l= ode of=20 writers and artists who live in my burg. I have interviewed people in my=20= favorite caf=E9 Sherman in the Union Square section of the city, in my st= udy on=20 School St, on my Somerville Community Access TV show " Poet to Poet: Writ= er=20 to Writer," in the offices of The Somerville News, and at my regular writ= ers'=20 group the "Bagel Bards," to name a few spots. I decided to compile the ma= ny=20 interviews I have conducted in a collection "From the Paris of New Englan= d:=20 Interviews with Poets and Writers." (Ibbetson Street). Here is a review o= f the=20 book by Hugh Fox, who was a founding editor of the Pushcart Prize: =46rom the Paris of New England: Interviews with Poets and Writers. By Doug Holder 2009; 133pp; Ibbetson Street Press,=20 25 School Street, Somerville, MA 02143. http://ibbetsonpress.com http://lulu.com/ibbetsonpress It's really true, Somerville, Massachusetts, right next to Cambridge, is = a kind of=20 New England Paris, all kinds of little eateries and galleries and everyth= ing-else- ries, like an Asian market, a Peruvian cafe, you name it. And what Holder= has=20 done here is to take the interviews he has done with Somerville (and othe= r=20 fancy-wancy, avant-garde, or no-guard-at-all) writers, bookstore owners,=20= publishers, etc. and put them together in a book -- with photos.=20 Masterfully done, Holder really brings the Somerville lit-world alive, al= ive, alive.=20 There's Louisa Solano, who ran the Grolier Poetry Book Shop for over thir= ty=20 years, talking about Robert Lowell, Philip Levine, Bukowski, Kerouac, Gin= sberg,=20 Ed Hogan, there's poet Lisa Beatman, talking about her recently published= =20 working-class-centered poetry (author of Manufacturing America: Poems Fro= m=20 the Factory), there's poet Martha Collins who established the Creative Wr= iting=20 Program at U/Mass Boston and who teachers Creative Writing at Oberlin=20 College, there's Dick Lourie, poet-musician-publisher (of Hanging Loose m= ag=20 and publishing house) talking about the old (and new) days in Somerville,= Beat=20 poet and organizer Jack Powers, Eva Salzman, who has spent years and year= s=20 in England, there's poet Afaa Michael Weaver, a professor of Literature a= t=20 Simmons College in Boston talking about being an African-American poet in= a=20 community that gives you the space to be eccentric, poet Sarah Hannah, a=20= professor at Emerson College in Boston, talking about Ph.D.'s versus poet= ic=20 creativity, there's poetic genius Lo Gallucio talking about psychological= =20 problems and creativity, poet-publisher Gloria Mindock who glories in the= =20 richness of cultural life in Somerville, filled with writers, painters an= d actors..... It would take another book to just write about this book, that's how rich= it is.=20 Interviews with Mike Basinski, Errol Uys, Lan Samantha Chang, Miriam Levi= ne,=20 Mark Doty, Claire Messud, Ed Sanders, Robert Creeley, it's a veritable Wh= o's=20 Who of artistic souls in Somerville. You go to the Bagel Bard readings in= =20 Somerville, hang around with the Somerville poet-artist gang, and it is l= ike=20 going back to Paris at the end of the nineteenth, the beginning of the=20= twentieth century. *Hugh Fox is a founding editor of the Pushcart Prize and author of "Way, = Way=20 Off the Road: Memoir of an Invisible Man." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:44:57 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Logan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit john tchicai is from denmark lived there now in france noah howard ??? you mean?? he lives in brelgium most of the time i got em on vinyl too had him sign them he plays again in 2 weeks opposite perry robinson anfd burton greene On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 George Bowering writes: > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > > > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > > been homeless 40 years > > 1st time playing in 40 years > > when did he live in europe?? > > > > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > > lived in Denmark? > Who did I have him mixed up with? > I mean what ESPecially? > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford > > Graves, > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > gb > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:47:30 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Charles Alexander Subject: ALEXANDER & NATHANSON reading in Phoenix MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Come join us! at the PHOENIX POETRY SERIES Tenney Nathanson and Charles Alexander will be reading poetry this Thursday, March 19, at 7pm Mama Java's Coffeehouse, 3619 E. Indian School Rd. Phoenix, Arizona charles alexander chax press 411 N 7th ave, suite 103 tucson az 85705 520 620 1626 chax@theriver.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: <20090317.184458.3716.0.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first intro to Tchicai was when he recorded with the New York Eye & Ear Control - one hell of an album. I can't remember the name of the group under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. I think he might have appeared on a Roswell Rudd lp for Impulse. Then I lost track of him. Great to hear he's playing again - and with Robinson whose clarinet playing, particularly in his third-world fusion stuff, I love. Man, I wish I could attend that concert. John Herbert Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky Sent: March-17-09 5:45 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Logan john tchicai is from denmark lived there now in france noah howard ??? you mean?? he lives in brelgium most of the time i got em on vinyl too had him sign them he plays again in 2 weeks opposite perry robinson anfd burton greene On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 George Bowering writes: > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > > > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > > been homeless 40 years > > 1st time playing in 40 years > > when did he live in europe?? > > > > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > > lived in Denmark? > Who did I have him mixed up with? > I mean what ESPecially? > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford > > Graves, > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > gb > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:42:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: aslongasittakes Subject: call for work-- sound poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit just wanted to let folks know we are looking for work for issue 3 of aslongasittakes (www.aslongasittakes.org)--- submissions are rolling, but we hope to have issue 3 out in late april/early may-- the official call for work is below thanks, james sanders “How long is a poem? As long as it takes to perform it.” --Bob Cobbing a s l o n g a s i t t a k e s, a sound poetry magazine published by the Atlanta Poets Group, is seeking submissions. We are looking for sound poetry, scores for sound poetry and essays on sound poetry. “What is ‘sound poetry’?” you ask. Good question. It’s one of those know it when you see (hear) it kind of things. It’s probably not music (thanks Dick Higgins). It might be noise. If you think about a spectrum of possible noise made by the human body (or simulations thereof or substitutions therefor), and at one end of the spectrum is a person reading her poem and at the other end is abstract noise, we’re looking for works that fall towards the latter end. We are looking for works in/of/against the tradition(s) of Ball, Schwitters, Dûfrène, Henri Chopin, Jandl, Cobbing, The Four Horsemen, Fylkingen Group, Öyvind Fahlström. . . hopefully by now you get the idea. We’re looking for stuff that will push/redefine the limits. The magazine is Web-based. Please send submissions to aslongasittakes@comcast.net in one of the following formats: .mp3, .wav, .wma, or flac. Please query before sending in other formats. If you can’t get us the work via email, just send an email and let us know, and we can find another way. We don’t know how long it will take to get back to you on your submissions, just be cool. We can’t pay you anything for your work. All work that appears in the magazine will be available for download from the magazine’s site under the Creative Commons’ /Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike/ license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/); if you are not comfortable with making your work available in that way, let us know and we can probably work something out. “How long is a poem? As long as it takes to perform it.” --Bob Cobbing a s l o n g a s i t t a k e s, ein Webmagazin für Lautpoesie, das bei der Atlanta Poets Group erscheint, akzeptiert noch Beiträge für die Erstausgabe. Wir sind auf der Suche nach Lautpoesie, Scores und Essays über Lautpoesie. "Was ist Lautpoesie?" fragt man. Gute Frage. Man erkennt sie, wenn man sie sieht oder hört. Wahrscheinlich ist es keine Musik (danke Dick Higgins). Es könnte Lärm sein, Geräusche. Man stelle sich das gesamte Spektrum menschlicher Geräusche vor (oder auch Simulationen und Nachahmungen dieser) und an einem Ende dieses Spektrums ist jemand, der ein Gedicht liest und am anderen Ende ist ein abstrakter Laut, dann suchen wir eher nach Beiträgen, die zu letzterem Ende tendieren. Wir suchen nach Arbeiten in der-, beziehungsweise in Anlehnung an-, oder auch gegen die Tradition Balls, Schwitters’, Dûfrènes, Henri Chopins, Jandls, Cobbings, The Four Horsemens ... Hoffentlich ist jetzt klar was gemeint ist. Wir suchen Arbeiten, die an die Grenzen gehen und sie neu definieren. a s l o n g a s i t t a k e s ist als Onlinemagazin konzipiert. Bitte sendet uns (Geräusch-)Beiträge als mp3, wav, wma, oder flac files an aslongasittakes@comcast.net . Scores und Essays gerne als Word oder pdf Dokumente. Falls ihr andere Formate bevorzugt, fragt bitte vorher an. Wenn ihr eure Beiträge nicht per E-Mail schicken könnt, sagt bescheid und wir finden eine andere Lösung. Reicht ihr eine Arbeit ein, wissen wir nicht, wie lange es dauert bis wir uns zurückmelden, habt Geduld. Wir können kein Honorar zahlen. Alle Beiträge, die im Magazin erscheinen, werden zum download von unserer Seite zur Verfügung stehen, gemäß der Creative Commons’ Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/). Sollte es nicht in deinem Sinne sein, deine Arbeit so zur Verfügung zu stellen, sag uns bescheid und wir einigen uns anders. <>aslongasittakes, un magazine de poésie publié par le group, the Atlanta Poets Group cherche des soumissions. Nous cherchons la poésie du son, les scores pour la poésie du son et des rédactions sur la poésie du son. Qu'est-ce que la poésie du son ? Bonne question. C'est quelque chose que vous reconnaissez lorsque vous l'entendez. En toute probabilité, ce n'est la musique (grâce a Dick Higgins) Il est possible que ce soit des bruits. Si vous pensez à un Spectrum de bruit faits par le corps humain(ou bien donc des simulations ou substitutions), et qu' à un côté du Spectrum soit quelqu'un qui lit sa poésie, et qu'a l'autre côté soit le bruit abstrait, sachez que nous cherchons des travaux qui mènent à ceux-là. Nous cherchons celles qui sont dans la tradition de, de la même tradition que ou bien contre la tradition de Ball, Schwitters, Dûfrène, Henri Chopin, Jandl, Cobbing, The Four Horsemen, Fylkingen Group, Öyvind Fahlström. . . peut-être que vous ayez l'idée ? Nous cherchons des travaux qui redéfiniront ou pousseront les limites. Le magazine n'est qu'à l'internet. Veuillez de soumettre vos travaux à aslongasittakes@comcast.net en un des formats suivants, .mp3, .wav, .wma, or flac. Veuillez de vous renseigner sur d'autre format avant d'en envoyer. Actuellement, nous ne savons pas le temps qu'il faudra pour choisir celles que nous publierons, veuillez de patienter. Nous ne sommes pas capables de vous payer les soumissions. Tous les travaux apparaissant dans le magazine seront disponibles à télécharger par the Creative Commons' /Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike/ license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/); si vous n'est pas a l'aise avec ce règle, il possible de trouver d'autres solutions. <> “Hur långt är ett poem? Så långt som det tar att framföra det.” –Bob Cobbing a s l o n g a s i t t a k e s, ett ljudpoesi magasin publicerat av Atlanta Poets Group söker förslag till öppningsnumret. Vi söker efter rader av ljudpoesi och essäer av ljudpoesi. ”Vad är ’ljudpoesi’?” Kanske du undrar, bra fråga. Det är en sån där sak som man vet vad det är när man ser (hör) det. Det är nog inte musik (tack Dick Higgins) det kan vara oväsen. Om du tänker dig ett spektra av möjliga oväsen gjorda av den mänskliga kroppen (eller simuleringar därav eller ersättningar därför), i en ända av spektrat är en person som läser hennes dikt och i den andra ändan är det abstrakt oväsen, vi letar efter verk som lutar mot det sistnämnda. Vi letar efter verk i/av/i mot traditionen av Ball, Schwitters ,Dûfrène, Henri Chopin, Jandl, Cobbing, The Four Horsemen, Fylkingen Group, Öyvind Fahlström… Förhoppningsvis förstår du nu vad vi menar. Vi letar efter saker som kommer att flytta/omdefiniera gränserna.Magasinet kommer att vara webb-baserat. Vänligen skicka in bidrag till aslongasittakes@comcast.net i något av följande format: .mp3, .wav, .wma, eller .flac. Noter eller essäer som Word-dokument eller .pdf. Var vänlig kontrollera med oss innan du skickar i något annat format. Ifall du inte kan skicka in ditt bidrag via e-post, var vänlig hör av dig för alternativa vägar. Vi vet ej hur lång tid det tar innan vi hör av oss gällande ditt bidrag, var tålmodig. Vi kan ej betala för ditt verk, alla verk som förekommer i magasinet kommer finnas tillgängliga för nedladdning från magasinets hemsida i enlighet med Creative Commons’ Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike licens (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/). Ifall du inte är bekväm med att göra dina verk tillgängliga på detta sett, hör av dig så kan vi nog lösa det på annat sätt. <>Aslongasittakes, una rivista di poesia sonora pubblicata da Atlanta Poets Group, sta cercando proposte per il suo numero inaugurale. Cerchiamo sia poesie sonore che saggi sulla poesia sonora. Che cos’e’ la “poesia sonora”? Bella domanda. E’ una di quelle cose che capisci quando le vedi (senti). Probabilmente non e’ musica (grazie Dick Higgins). Potrebbe essere rumore. Se si pensa a uno spettro di possibile rumore creato dal corpo umano (oppure simulazioni o sostituzioni di esso), a un capo dello spettro c’è una persona che legge una sua poesia e all’altro capo dello spettro c’è del rumore astratto, noi cerchiamo lavori che inclinino di più verso il secondo capo. Cerchiamo opere nella/della/contro la tradizione di Ball, Schwitters, Dûfrène, Henri Chopin, Jandl, Cobbing, The Four Horsemen… speriamo di aver reso l’idea. Cerchiamo roba che spinga/ridefinisca i limiti. La rivista si pubblica sul web. <> Per favore spedite le vostre proposte a aslongasittakes@comcast.net in uno di questi formati: .mp3, .wav, .wma, or .flac. Vi preghiamo di chiedere prima di spedirli in altri formati. Se non potete spedire il lavoro tramite email, fatecelo sapere via email e troveremo un altro sistema. Non sappiamo quanto tempo ci vorrà per rispondervi, percio’ abbiate pazienza. Non potremo pagare niente per i vostri lavori. Tutte le opere che appaiono nella rivista potranno essere scaricate dal sito della rivista, secondo la licenza Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/). Se non vuoi che il tuo lavoro sia reso disponibile in questo modo faccelo sapere e probabilmente riusciremo a trovare una soluzione. <> a s l o n g a s i t t a k e s, ek awaaz ya swar ki patrika, joki Atlanta Poets Group dwara prakashit hai, apne agle ank ke liye kaam dhond rahi hai. Hum awaaz par nirdharit kavitaein, ya phir yin kavitaon ka score ya phir yin par likhe lekh, ke ikchuk hain. Aap puchein ge ki, yeh awaaz par nirdharit kavitaein kya hein? Yeh aacha prashn hein. Yeh un cheezon jaisi hai, jo aap jab dekhein ya sune, to jane. Yeh sangeet nahi hai. Yeh shore ho sakta hai. Agar aap un sabhi aawazon ke barein mein sochein jo ki ek insan ka shareer bana sakta hein (ya phir koi aur cheez so inke jaise aawazeen nikal sakti hain), ek taraf koi apni kavita pharta ho aur dosri taraf koi nirakar, ya phir tatva ke paas, ki awaaz ya shore. Hum un kaam ke ikchuk hein jo dosre palre ki taraf bhari partein hein. Hum waise kaam ki khoj mein hain jo ki alag sa ho, ya phir angreezi mein yin kaviyeon ki tarah/ yinke khilaf mein ho: Ball, Schwitters, Dûfrène, Henri Chopin, Jandl, Cobbing, The Four Horsemen . . . Aasha hein ab aap humare khyal se jankaar ho gayein honge. Hum us tarah ke kaam dhoond rahe hein jo ki simaon ko lalkare, aur nayi simayein banaay. Yeh patrika Web mein hi milegi. <>Kripya kar apne swar or awaaz wale kaam, aslongasittakes@comcast.net ko yin formats mein bhejein: .mp3, .wav, .wma, or .flac. Lekh aur scores Word documents ya .pdfs mein bhejein. Kripya kisi aur format mein kuch bhejnein se pahle, humse jankari ley lain. Agar aap email se apna kaam humein nahi bejh sakte, to hamein bataein, taki hum koi aur intezam kar sakein. Ho sakta hai ki apke kaam milne ke baad hume aapko kuch batein mein kuch ya kafi waqt lage, isliye kripya shanti se intezaar karein. Hum apko, apke kaam ke liye, kuch de to nahi sakte, magar sabhi ke kaam, jo bhi hamare patrika mein honge, wo hamari site se Creative Commons' /Attribution Non-commercial Share Alike/ license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/) mein download ke liyen uplabhd honge. Agar, aapko apna kaam is tarah se sabhi ke dwara uplabdh hote dekh, pareshani hoti hai, to hamein batayein aur hum koi aur intezam karne ki koshish karein ge. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:37:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: richard owens Subject: THOMAS MEYER | KINTSUGI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thomas Meyer's Kintsugi available now through Punch Press. "Sit so you don't hurt the grass," says Meyer. "An impossible grace." Robert Kelly remarks in his foreword, "Tom calls the forty-eight threnodic pulses of his observation of Jonathan's dying, his own surviving, by a curious Japanese word, kintsugi, which he describes as the 'practice of repairing ceramics with gold-laced lacquer to illuminate the breakage.' So the very rupture is what is highlighted: the error becomes the meaning of the text." Three-color letterpress on Fabriano wraps. Hand-stitched. Celadon letterpress images appearing on the cover and within the book are based on resin images generously produced for this project by Erica Van Horn in August, 2008 at Coracle Press, Tipperary, Ireland. US orders: $10 per copy Outside the US: $15 per copy http://damnthecaesars.org/punchpress.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:11:01 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: March 21: Biddinger & Karmin in Cleveland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii SATURDAY, MARCH 21 8pm MARY BIDDINGER JENNIFER KARMIN at VISIBLE VOICE BOOKS 1023 Kenilworth Cleveland, Ohio http://www.visiblevoicebooks.com MARY BIDDINGER is the author of Prairie Fever (Steel Toe Books, 2007). Her work has recently appeared or is forthcoming in 32 Poems, Gulf Coast, The Laurel Review, Memorious, Ninth Letter, North American Review, /nor, Third Coast, and many other journals. She is the editor of the Akron Series in Poetry, and Co-Editor-in-Chief of Barn Owl Review. She teaches at the University of Akron, and is the incoming director of the NEOMFA: Northeast Ohio Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing program. JENNIFER KARMIN's text-sound epic, Aaaaaaaaaaalice, will be published by Flim Forum Press in 2009. She curates the Red Rover Series and is co-founder of the public art group Anti Gravity Surprise. Her multidisciplinary projects have been presented nationally at festivals, artist-run spaces, and on city streets. Karmin teaches creative writing to immigrants at Truman College and works as a Poet-in-Residence for the Chicago Public Schools. New poems are published in Cannot Exist, MoonLit, Otoliths, Come Together: Imagine Peace (Bottom Dog Press) and Not A Muse (Haven Books). ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Margaret Konkol Subject: Daily Immediacy: Online exhibition of mobile media images MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is just to pass on the word about a provocative and exciting Amy Luraschi project. Perhaps a good gallery space for the found poem and for all the absurd, delightful juxtapositions of word and image passed by on the daily commute? -Margaret http://dailyimmediacy.blogspot.com/ An Online Exhibition of Mobile Media Images A diary is a daily record of events and experiences. Because of the accessibility and instantaneous nature of camera phones, people are turning into spontaneous photojournalists. They are becoming more aware of their surroundings and more apt to capture aspects of everyday life. From the mundane to the spectacular, images are being inconspicuously captured and transmitted through the wireless infrastructure. These versatile images are an immediate document of daily life and have a unique aesthetic because of their lo-fi/low-resolution quality. You are invited to participate in this new online gallery. Please submit your daily mobile images to mobile.image.gallery@gmail.com. You can email them directly from your phone as a multimedia message (mms) or email them as jpegs. Selected images will be featured weekly on this site. This is an experiment of sorts to see how we are choosing to encapsulate our daily lives. ALL image submissions can be viewed at: http://www.flickr.com/groups/mobilegallery/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: steve ben israel show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit March 26 to march 29 at theatre lab 137 west 14street between 6 and 7th ave. Hi There,..new dates for steve ben israels one man show..all the best steve Here are the links to view the webpage at the theaterlab site and the Smarttix page (which is now operational to buy tickets) https://www.smarttix.com/show.aspx?showCode=NON2 http://www.theaterlabnyc.com/Theaterlab3/Nonviolent_Executions.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:15:13 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: twshaner@COMCAST.NET Subject: Sam Lohmann and Rich Jensen in Eugene this Saturday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DIVA's A New Poetry Series Features Sam Lohmann and Rich Jensen. Portland poet Sam Lohmann and Rich Jensen, of Seattle, will read from their work at DIVA's March 21st A New Poetry Series at 7:30 PM. Admission: Donation. Sam Lohmann is a poet, editor, and letterpress printer who moved to Portland from Olympia, Washington. He now edits a yearly poetry zine called Peaches and Bats. He has self-published several chapbooks, most recently "Unless As Stone Is," and is working on a manuscript called "Light Pollution." Rich Jensen is a small business owner and manager who sings and writes. During the Grunge years he ran financial affairs for Sub Pop Records (Nirvana, Mudhoney). He is the co-founder of Up Records (Modest Mouse, Built to Spill) and most recently the publisher of Clear Cut Press, a publishing and distribution company. K Records, Sub Pop Records, Arcade, The Temple, and Peaches and Bats have reproduced Rich Jensen's songs and poems. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 03:44:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Boog City 55 Print and Online PDF Editions Available Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ------------------- Hi all, The print edition of Boog City 55 will be available tonight. You can =20 read the pdf version now at: http://welcometoboogcity.com/boogpdfs/bc55.pdf Thanks, David -------------------- Boog City 55 now available featuring: ***On the Cover*** **Our Printed Matter section, edited by Paolo Javier** =97"Gray=92s inspirations are as disparate as Eileen Myles, Sylvia = Plath, =20 Diane di Prima, Dorianne Laux, Dorothy Parker, and Lily Tomlin." =97=20 from Gray and Bryant Matter: Movies Flickering By and Being Re-=20 examined; Heart Stoner Bingo by Stephanie Gray (Straw Gate Books), =20 reviewed by Wanda Phipps "The emphasis lies in the courageous public psychomachia that Bryant-=20 as-viewer undergoes, how she is able to personally face these ugly =20 spots in film history as symptoms of problems in our cultural history, =20= acknowledge them, and then subvert their meaning through acts of =20 recontextualization." =97from Gray and Bryant Matter: Movies Flickering =20= By and Being Re-examined; Unexplained Presence by Tisa Bryant (Leon =20 Works), reviewed by Tim Peterson **And =46rom Our Poetry section, edited by Julia Cohen and Mathias =20 Svalina** (excerpt below) =97Boston's Heather Green with Feathers, Quiet, Light Envision a totally white room. Now, quick, list three adjectives that describe that room. That=92s supposed to show how you feel about death. For me, it=92s more like living alone, which I mostly enjoy. ***And Inside*** **Art editor Brenda Iijima brings us work from San Francisco's erica lewis and Mark Stephen Finein.** **And the Rest of Our Poetry section** (excerpts below) =97Chinatown, NYC's Steven Karl with Easter Sunday or Some Such Songing As ashed ashing ashen white whatever where water whistle for =20= wouldn=92t this stretched sand sight cliffed trees of few leaves =97Raleigh, N.C.'s Ken Rumble with Listen to All A salesman takes a part in a docudrama =97 action =97 make-up and knees left weak at the sight of the ing=E9nue. =97Portland, Ore.'s Emily Kendal Frey with Friend I=92m preaching into a bullhorn. R is there, taking notes and moving a headband around on his forehead. He=92ll tell me later that the sound was off. **And Our Newly Expanded Music section, Urban Folk edited by Jonathan Berger** =97"Live At Sidewalk, is a revelation. Not only does the album =20 miraculously hold together as 70-plus filler-free minutes of enjoyable =20= music, it highlights Dalton as a soulful interpreter of folk classics =20= and an, until-now, underappreciated songwriter." =97from First and 57th: = =20 She Has to Play; Live At Sidewalk by Debe Dalton, reviewed by Justin =20 Remer =97"Bliss has long been known as a ferocious live performer: I once saw =20= him break two strings in the same song, then have them changed and =20 ready to go in under a minute." =97from Truth Necessary to Tell; Truths =20= Put Into Rhyme by Barry Bliss; reviewed by Brook Pridemore =97"=91You=92re So Cool=92 sounds like a =9260s sort of raver, ending = with a =20 fade-out followed by a fade-back-in, reflecting a party that has =20 perhaps gone on just a little too long." =97from Angels and Aliens; Four = =20 Cold Angels by Lorraine Leckie and Her Demons; by Jonathan Berger "I was playing pretty much the same set every night, and by the time =20 it came to covering Barry Bliss=92 song =91Lick,=92 my dynamic range had = =20 degenerated to screaming everything at top volume." =97from Get in the =20= Minivan: What Happens in Nashville Goes to Boog City!; by Brook =20 Pridemore ----- Photographs from Barry Bliss, Rick Crane, Jennifer Keane, Brook =20 Pridemore, and Herb Scher. And thanks to our copy editor, Joe Bates; and also Jesse Schoen for =20 production assistance. ----- Please patronize our advertisers: Billy's Antiques and Props * http://www.billysantiques.com/ Harvard Review * http://hcl.harvard.edu/harvardreview/ House Press * http://www.housepress.org/records.html Joe Cassady & The West End Sound * http://www.joecassady.com/ Ocho 21 * http://www.mipoesias.com/ Poetic Voices Without Borders 2 * http://givalpress.com/ Schwervon * http://www.schwervon.com/ Talisman House, Publishers * talismaned@aol.com ----- Advertising or donation inquiries can be directed to editor@boogcity.com or by calling 212-842-BOOG (2664) ----- Poetry Submission Guidelines: Email subs to poetry@welcometoboogcity.com, with no more than five =20 poems, all in one attached file with =93My Name Submission=94 in the =20 subject line and as the name of the file, ie: Walt Whitman Submission. =20= Or mail with an SASE to Poetry editor, Boog City, 330 W. 28th St., =20 Suite 6H, N.Y., N.Y. 10001-4754. ----- Want to write a review (or be reviewed) in Boog=92s Urban Folk music or printed matter sections? Email UF editor Jonathan Berger, uf@welcometoboogcity.com or printed matter editor Paolo Javier, pm@welcometoboogcity.com ----- 2,250 copies of Boog City are distributed among, and available for free at, the following locations: MANHATTAN *THE EAST VILLAGE* Anthology Film Archives Billy's Antiques Bluestockings Bowery Poetry Club Cake Shop Lakeside Lounge Life Caf=E9 Living Room Mission Caf=E9 Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 Pianos St. Mark's Books St. Mark's Church Sidewalk Caf=E9 Sunshine Theater Think Coffee (Bleecker/Bowery) Trash and Vaudeville Two Boots Video *OTHER PARTS OF MANHATTAN* Acme Underground Angelika Film Center and Caf=E9 Hotel Chelsea McNally Jackson Mercer Street Books Other Music Shakespeare & Co. BROOKLYN *GREENPOINT* Champion Coffee East Coast Aliens Greenpoint Coffee House Matchless Permanent Records Thai Cafe *WILLIAMSBURG* Bliss Caf=E9 Earwax Records Sideshow Gallery Sound Fix Spike Hill Spoonbill & Sugartown Supercore Caf=E9 --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664)= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:54:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: FW: Stand with the Burmese people! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came from a group of Indian writers. Ancient issue and that's why, all the more, it needs your support. Thanks Aryanil Mukherjee _____ From: Priya Sarukkai Chabria [mailto:surpriya34@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 1:28 AM To: aryanil@kaurab.com Subject: Stand with the Burmese people! Hi, You remember the monks marching for democracy in Burma a couple of years ago who were brutally attacked by the military regime?Many of them were locked away and since then been languishing in brutal Burmese prisons. But now brave ex prisoners and activists are pushing for the release of all political prisoners, including Nobel peace prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi. Ex Presidents are supporting their campaign and the UN is finally beginning to get some out of jail. I just signed a petition calling on UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon to prioritise their release. The more of us that sign, the more we make clear that the release of all prisoners is important to citizens across the world. You can sign below and tell your friends! http://www.avaaz.org/en/free_burma_political_prisoners/98.php/?cl_taf_sign=0 91a0d5aed00dc86b1d3f9a5e69c37c6 Thank you so much for your help! You are receiving this email because someone sent it to you via the "tell-a-friend" tool at Avaaz.org. Avaaz retains no information about individuals contacted through this tool. Avaaz will not send you further messages without your consent--although your friends could, of course, send you another message. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:42:40 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gary Sullivan Subject: MOHAMMAD + SHAW | SEGUE @ BPC | SAT MAR 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable K. SILEM MOHAMMAD and LYTLE SHAW Segue Reading Series @ Bowery Poetry Club Saturdays March 21 4:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m.=20 308 Bowery=2C just north of Houston=20 $6 admission goes to support the readers K. Silem Mohammad is the author Breathalyzer (Edge Books=2C 2008)=2C A Thou= sand Devils (Combo Books=2C 2004)=2C and Deer Head Nation (Tougher Disguise= s=2C 2003). Abraham Lincoln=2C which he edits with Anne Boyer=2C is the sin= gle most significant poetry magazine in North America that always features = a large cat and a rainbow on its front cover.=20 Lytle Shaw=92s most recent books include The Chadwick Family Papers (a coll= aboration with Jimbo Blachly=2C Periscope=2C 2009) and Frank O'Hara: The Po= etics of Coterie (University Of Iowa Press=2C 2006). The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Found= ation. For more information=2C please visit seguefoundation.com=2C bowerypo= etry.com=2C or call (212) 614-0505. Curators for February-March: Nada Gordo= n & Gary Sullivan. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live=99 Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to m= eet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:30:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: William Allegrezza Subject: Series A Sound Page, Mp3s MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have missed Series A in Chicago over the past two years, feel free to catch up by listening to the recordings made by Chicago Public Radio and listed here: http://www.moriapoetry.com/seriesasound.html. Bill Allegrezza ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:14:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tarpaulin Sky Press Subject: New from Shearsman: Christian Peet's _Big American Trip_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Big American Trip Christian Peet Shearsman Books, 15 March 2009 Paperback, 80 pp., 9x6ins, $15 / £8.95 ISBN 9781848610156 Available from Small Press Distribution: http://www.spdbooks.org/Search/Default.aspx?AuthorName=christian+peet Author website: http://www.christianpeet.com JACKET DESCRIPTION: Assuming the form of postcards authored by an "alien" of unknown nationality, ethnicity, and gender, addressing a variety of people and organizations (political figures, multinational corporations, people in public toilets, John Barr, et al), _Big American Trip_ is a startling document of fear and loneliness in the 21st century U.S. Whether deconstructing road signs, a failed relationship, or the state of contemporary poetry, the voice behind these texts is at once familiar and strange, determined to be free, and desperate to communicate with anyone who has ever felt at odds with the Language of a Nation. SEE ALSO: The companion YouTube project, involving a diverse group of activists, actors, artists, musicians, and writers performing video readings / interpretations of individual postcards, may be seen here: http://bigamericantrip.blogspot.com SOME RESPONSES TO _BIG AMERICAN TRIP_: The complexities of alienation hybridize the mouth, double the tongue. Derrida writes, “What does a post card want to say to you? On what conditions is it possible? Its destination traverses you, you no longer know who you are…instead of reaching you it divides you…it leaves you, it gives you.” Christian Peet’s _Big American Trip_ embodies the enigma of the postcard—writing that is at once private and public—and like all letters, these maintain a sense of internal drifting that requires us to question our own sense of identity and location. The logic of Peet’s syntax and juxtapositions gives us the poetry of the divided tongue: in the space between multiple languages, we are invited to trespass our own borders that we might hear (and learn to speak) radical loss. A whole new spin on the classic postcard message: “wish you were here,” _Big American Trip_ is a remarkable, necessary book, and a wonderful achievement. —Selah Saterstrom, author of _The Meat & Spirit Plan_ and _The Pink Institution_ In _Big American Trip_, Christian Peet rejects the idyllic dream of a post-national freedom, instead going back to those two archaic, fundamental tools of American nation building—the highway system and the postcard—not to find an imagined national community but to reveal the strangeness, violence and noise that results from the U.S. clashing with other cultures, languages and nations, and—just as importantly—clashing with itself. —Johannes Göransson, author of _A New Quarantine Will Take My Place_ and _Pilot_, co-editor of Action Books and _Action, Yes_ Samuel Richardson's epistolary novel Pamela is a sad and hilarious book full of devastating social commentary about money, power, sex and British social mores. A couple centuries later, Christian Peet has updated poor Pamela's well behaved letters into blistering postcards dashed off by a nervy, distraught human being of indeterminate gender who is both losing and finding him/herself in and across a terrifying pre-Obama America. Stamp this one with approval. —Rebecca Brown, author of _The Last Time I Saw You_, _The End of Youth_, _Excerpts From A Family Medical Dictionary_, _The Gifts of the Body_, _The Terrible Girls_, and others The author of these postcards has transcribed this alien’s heart. Peet drives through the US landscape (circa early 21st century), offers us the hijacked language of a nation, and through this text asks: and what words have been left for you to use, honestly? —Elena Georgiou, author of _mercy mercy me_ and the forthcoming _Rhapsody of the Naked Immigrant_ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:17:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: susan maurer Subject: Re: Tribeca Film Festival, Tel Aviv, NYC, Sao Paulo In-Reply-To: <771363.24701.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable congrats ram. susan maurer =20 > Date: Sun=2C 15 Mar 2009 04:54:53 -0700 > From: rattapallax@YAHOO.COM > Subject: Tribeca Film Festival=2C Tel Aviv=2C NYC=2C Sao Paulo > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Tribeca Film Festival=2C Tel Aviv=2C NYC=2C Sao Paulo >=20 > Dear Friends: >=20 > I am excited to announce that "Vegas: Based on a True > Story" has been selected for COMPETITION for 2009 > Tribeca Film Festival in New York City. The film is > directed by Amir Naderi and Rattapallax helped to > produce it. Festival is from April 22-May 3=2C 2009. > More details below. Please join us for several other > events being held in New York City=2C Sao Paulo and Tel > Aviv. >=20 > Screening of films from Rattapallax magazine. >=20 > March 25=2C 2009 at 19:00 hrs at Tel Aviv Cinematheque=2C > 2 Sprinzak St.=2C Tel Aviv=2C Israel. Phone: +972 3 691 > 7181 http://www.cinema.co.il >=20 > Rattapallax and PEN World Voices Film Festival. April > 27-May 3=2C 2009. New York City=2C USA. >=20 > ------ >=20 > VEGAS: BASED ON A TRUE STORY. Vegas: Based on a True > Story=20 >=20 > TRIBECA FILM FESTIVAL 2009. Returning to the Festival=2C > acclaimed director Amir Naderi applies his inimitable > cinematic style to Vegas. The film takes place away > from the glittering strip of luxury mega casinos=2C but > the judgment-clouding greed of Sin City is just as > pervasive on the desert outskirts of town=2C where an > otherwise happy family is thrown into turmoil after > learning of a forgotten fortune that maybe buried > underneath their scrubby little home. Directed by Amir > Naderi=2C written by Susan Brennan=2C Bliss Esposito=2C > Charlie Lake Keaton=2C and Naderi. >=20 > http://www.tribecafilm.com/news-features/features/TFF_09_World_Narrative_= Feature_Films.html >=20 >=20 > Sincerely=2C >=20 > Ram Devineni >=20 >=20 > Please send future emails to=20 > devineni@rattapallax.com for press >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE= .=20 http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=3DTXT_MS= GTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:41:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Logan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit no burton greene is playing with perry robinson tchicai album on esp was with baraka rudd etc called the new york art quartet ny eye ear control was with don cherry and ayler sound track for michael snow film most are back in print on cd On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:06:58 -0500 John Cunningham writes: > My first intro to Tchicai was when he recorded with the New York Eye > & Ear > Control - one hell of an album. I can't remember the name of the > group > under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. I think > he might > have appeared on a Roswell Rudd lp for Impulse. Then I lost track of > him. > Great to hear he's playing again - and with Robinson whose clarinet > playing, > particularly in his third-world fusion stuff, I love. Man, I wish I > could > attend that concert. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: March-17-09 5:45 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Logan > > john tchicai is from denmark lived there now in france > noah howard ??? you mean?? he lives in brelgium most of the time > i got em on vinyl too had him sign them > he plays again in 2 weeks opposite perry robinson anfd burton > greene > > On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 George Bowering > > writes: > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > > > > > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > > > been homeless 40 years > > > 1st time playing in 40 years > > > when did he live in europe?? > > > > > > > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > > > > > lived in Denmark? > > Who did I have him mixed up with? > > I mean what ESPecially? > > > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and > Milford > > > > Graves, > > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > > > gb > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:11:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: DW Subject: Prolog Pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please help me celebrate my new book of poetry, Prolog Pages, available through SPD. Here is the information from the publisher, Ahadada, http://www.ahadadabooks.com/content/view/159/41/ Donald Wellman Daniel Webster College http://faculty.dwc.edu/wellman/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:10:19 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: judith goldman Subject: TO BECKON SPRING -- Inter-arts event on Friday, March 20th in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TO BECKON SPRING -- Inter-arts event on Friday, March 20th You are cordially invited to an evening of performance / open studio Friday, March 20th: 8 =96 11pm Artist studio with paintings, sculpture, and installations by Julia Klein and Sara Gothard Poetry reading with Dana Ward, visiting from Cincinnati, OH and Chris Vitiello, visiting from Durham, NC If you=92re not familiar with the texts and personae of Dana Ward and Chris Vitiello, you are in for a treat: they are both incredibly charismatic, funny readers whose poetry and cross-genre work will knock your socks off! The reading will begin at 9pm. This event is hosted by Judith Goldman, a Chicago-area poet who is also a Harper Schmidt Fellow / Collegiate Assistant Professor at the University of Chicago. LOCATION INFORMATION Judith Goldman=92s residence 5517 N. Paulina Ave, #1 (about 6 blocks north of Foster, between Catalpa and Gregory) (Paulina is one block west of Ashland) PLEASE NOTE: This location is unfortunately not wheelchair accessible. DIRECTIONS FROM CTA RED LINE From the Bryn Mawr stop: walk west from Broadway to Paulina, about =BD mile (it=92s a 12-15 min. walk). Email jgoldman1@uchicago.edu with any questions. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 14:26:48 -0600 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lori Emerson Subject: CFP: George Bowering special issue of Open Letter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all - please do forward to any interested colleagues/writers/students! best, Lori =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D George Bowering: Bridges to Elsewhere OPEN LETTER SPECIAL ISSUE In 2008, George Bowering summarized his long literary career in Canada by stressing his activities as an intermediary: =93I think that if I have any place in the history of Canadian poetry, it is as a kind of bridge figure.=A0 I have always wanted to make you sure that I belong to a peculiar West Coast poetry group or movement that is way out there, but I have always thought myself to be considered part of the newer establishment in Toronto, where Canadian literature is gathered and sent to market.=A0 All my adult life I have explained or defended one side to the other.=94=A0 Critics such as Roy Miki, Frank Davey, and Fred Wah have been very effective in establishing the importance of the TISH movement to Canadian poetry, but the impact of Bowering=92s work outside of =96 or extending from =96 this critical nexus is a neglected field of study. This special issue of Open Letter invites critics to broaden the horizons of Bowering criticism and investigate new paradigms for assessing his work.=A0 Key questions include, but are not limited to, the following: * How can critics make sense of Bowering=92s claim: =93I=92m in the old guard and the avant-garde=94? * How has Bowering influenced or been influenced by American Language poets= ? * How can critics read Bowering=92s work outside the locus of Vancouver? Can we see Bowering as a Calgary, Toronto, London, or Montreal artist? * How has Bowering=92s work as a critic and anthologist helped shape Canadian literature? * What are Bowering=92s strengths and weaknesses as a national and provincial historian? * How does the work of Bowering, as the first official Poet Laureate of Canada, compare to that of poets who held the title of unofficial Poet Laureate, such as Bliss Carman, E.J. Pratt, and Al Purdy? Note that Bowering published the first monograph on Purdy. * How has Bowering built bridges from poetry into other media? * How does Bowering=92s writing respond to Asian, Australian, African, or Central / South American literature? * What is Bowering=92s pedagogical legacy? * Is Bowering an Ecopoet? * Do any of Bowering=92s later works disguise his TISH and Black Mountain poetics in order to reach a new audience, while at the same time elaborating his early principles? * Many of Bowering=92s critical statements contrast a Toronto =93establishment=94 with an experimental West Coast =93movement.=94=A0 How = valid are his binaries of East/West, old/new, stasis/flux?=A0=A0 Are there better ways of understanding the dynamics of writing and publishing in Canada? Please send your submissions to ian.rae@mcgill.ca or to Ian Rae, Acting Program Director, McGill Institute for the Study of Canada, 3463 Peel, Montr=E9al, QC, Canada, H3A 1W7. The style of the final publication will follow the MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers.=A0 Submissions in this format (if you are familiar with it) are appreciated. SUBMISSION DEADLINE: DECEMBER 1st, 2009 TARGET PUBLICATION DATE: FALL 2010 -- Lori Emerson Assistant Professor | Electropoetics Thread Editor, Electronic Book Review Department of English, University of Colorado at Boulder Hellems 101, 226 UCB, Boulder, CO 80309-0226 http://www.colorado.edu/English/faculty/facpages/emerson.shtml http://www.electronicbookreview.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: <20090319.114130.2560.13.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I stand corrected. They were both great though, weren't they. John Herbert Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky Sent: March-19-09 10:41 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Logan no burton greene is playing with perry robinson tchicai album on esp was with baraka rudd etc called the new york art quartet ny eye ear control was with don cherry and ayler sound track for michael snow film most are back in print on cd On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:06:58 -0500 John Cunningham writes: > My first intro to Tchicai was when he recorded with the New York Eye > & Ear > Control - one hell of an album. I can't remember the name of the > group > under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. I think > he might > have appeared on a Roswell Rudd lp for Impulse. Then I lost track of > him. > Great to hear he's playing again - and with Robinson whose clarinet > playing, > particularly in his third-world fusion stuff, I love. Man, I wish I > could > attend that concert. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: March-17-09 5:45 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Logan > > john tchicai is from denmark lived there now in france > noah howard ??? you mean?? he lives in brelgium most of the time > i got em on vinyl too had him sign them > he plays again in 2 weeks opposite perry robinson anfd burton > greene > > On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 George Bowering > > writes: > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > > > > > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > > > been homeless 40 years > > > 1st time playing in 40 years > > > when did he live in europe?? > > > > > > > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > > > > > lived in Denmark? > > Who did I have him mixed up with? > > I mean what ESPecially? > > > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and > Milford > > > > Graves, > > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > > > gb > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:08:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project March Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Here=B9s what=B9s happening next week (the first week of Spring!) at The Poetry Project. Also, check out poetryproject.org for new photos, reading reports, and blog entries. Monday, March 23, 8 PM Karen Randall & Jeremy James Thompson Karen Randall is an artist who works in the media of words, digital collage (both sound and visual), oil painting, and letterpress printing/artist=B9s books. She is the daughter of an astrophysicist & grew up playing with primitive computers, a very cool chemistry set from the 50s, building short wave radios and a telescope, while also painting & writing poetry. She has taught hands-on science in the Chicago public schools, literary studies in western MA, and letterpress printing at the Center for the Book in NY and a= t Naropa. She developed four-color printing process as a means of combining the fluidity of contemporary digital imagery with the luminous qualities of ink layered on Japanese papers. Her work has been collected by numerous colleges, institutions and private collectors including the Library of Congress. Images of her work can be seen on line at www.propolispress.com. Jeremy James Thompson is an instructor at New York=B9s Center for Book Arts a= s well as a curator for their New Voices reading series. His work focuses on the process of collaboration, the reinvention of propaganda, and the defining of a practical avant-garde. Through his own Auto Types Press, he has produced collaborative prints with poets including, Edwin Torres, Joan Retallack, David Lehman and Charles Bernstein. His texts and typographic works are published in collections and journals including Cricket Online Review, Pinstripe Fedora, The Houston Literary Review, The Bucky Monkey, Lamination Colony, WORK, and Viz. Inter-Arts, a Trans-Genre Anthology. He blogs about movietelling, typography and poetics at autotypist.blogspot.com= . Wednesday, March 25, 8 PM Sherman Alexie & Jayne Cortez Sherman Alexie=B9s newest collection of poems, Face, has just been published by Hanging Loose Press. He has a new young adult novel coming from Little, Brown this spring (his last one, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, won the National Book Award ) and a new book of stories from Grove/Atlantic in the fall. He=B9s published over 20 books altogether. The Ne= w York Times said of his very first book, The Business of Fancydancing: =B3Mr. Alexie=B9s is one of the major lyric voices of our time.=B2 He lives in Seattle with his wife, Diane Tomhave, and their two sons. Jayne Cortez is the autho= r of eleven books of poetry and performer of her poems with music on nine recordings. Her voice is celebrated for its political, surrealistic, dynami= c innovations in lyricism, and visceral sound. Cortez has presented her work and ideas at universities, museums, and festivals around the world. Her poems have been translated into many languages and widely published in anthologies, journals, and magazines. She is a recipient of several awards including: Arts International, the National Endowment for the Arts, the International African Festival Award. The Langston Hughes Medal, The American Book Award, and the Thelma McAndless Distinguished Professorship Award. Her most recent books are On the Imperial Highway: New and Selected Poems (Hanging Loose Press), The Beautiful Book (Bola Press) and Jazz Fan Looks Back (Hanging Loose Press). Her latest CDs with the Firespitter Band are Find Your Own Voice, Borders of Disorderly Time (Bola Press), Taking th= e Blues Back Home, produced by Harmolodic and by Verve Records. Cortez is organizer of the international symposium =B3Slave Routes: Resistance, Abolition & Creative Progress=B2 (NYU) and director of the film Yari Yari Pamberi: Black Women Writers Dissecting Globalization. She is co-founder an= d president of the Organization of Women Writers of Africa, Inc., and can be seen on screen in the films Women In Jazz and Poetry In Motion. Friday, March 27, 10 PM Ali Liebegott & Cristy C. Road Ali Liebegott is the author of the award winning books, The Beautifully Worthless and The IHOP Papers. For the last seven years she=B9s been drawing and illustrating a full-color illustrated novel, titled The Crumb People, about a post-September 11th obsessive duck feeder. She=B9s also writing a sequel to her first book-length poem called, The Summer of Dead Birds. You can find her stacking cat food in aisle 9 of Rainbow Grocery Co-Op in San Francisco. She also writes for The Advocate sometimes. Cristy C. Road is a writer and illustrator who=B9s obsessed with human imperfection and deconstructing the norms which have sheltered her world. Aside from illustrating for countless record covers, book covers, radical organizations, and magazine articles, Road published an independent zine, Greenzine for ten years, and has released three books - Indestructible, a graphic memoir about being a teenage Latina, queer punk in high school; and Distance Makes the Heart Grow Sick, a postcard collection. She recently released Bad Habits, an illustrated love story about a faltering human heart=B9s telepathic connections to the destruction of New York City. She currently hibernates in Brooklyn, NY. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.org/become-a-member Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.org/program-calendar The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.org www.poetryproject.org Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.org. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:28:48 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Ching-In Chen Subject: Heart's Traffic Boston & NYC Book Parties MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings: Come through if you're in the area and help me spread the word! Thanks, Ching-In *The Heart's Traffic *is Ching-In's debut collection of poems from Arktoi Books /Red Hen Press. This novel-in-poem= s chronicles the life of Xiaomei, an immigrant girl haunted by the death of her best friend. Told through a kaleidoscopic braid of stories, letters, an= d riddles, this stunning debut collection follows Xiaomei's life as she grows into her sexuality and searches for a way to deal with her complicated histories. At times, meditation, celebration, investigation, and elegy, this is a book about personal transformation within the context of a family forced to make do=97a Makeshift Family=97and how one might create new langu= age to name the New World. *Sunday, March 22, 2009. 7pm NYC Book Release Party & Reading!* with special guests Marlon Unas Esguerra, R. Erica Doyle & Joseph O. Legasp= i Bluestockings 172 Allen Street @ Stanton (1 block south of Houston), New York, NY Free Info: www.bluestockings.com *Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 6:30pm Boston Book Release Party & Reading!* Boston Chinatown Neighorhood Center 38 Ash St, Boston MA Free Info: www.bcnc.net *Thursday, March 26, 3-4:15pm Reading/Class Visit* Center for Humanities (next to campus center), Tufts University, Medford MA Free *Saturday, March 28, 2009, 7pm 122 Salon III* with Charon Morris & Marta Lucia Vargas following the featured readers there will be a Renga Jam Monica's apartment - 122 W117th Street Apt 3, NY, NY $5, RSVP to marshaheart@aol.com *Sunday, March 29, 2009, 6pm Red Hen New York Reading Series* with Brendan Constantine, Delana R.A. Dameron, and Mitchell Douglas Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (Between Houston and Bleecker) Info: www.bowerypoetry.com --=20 ~~~~~ Ching-In Chen THE HEART'S TRAFFIC (Arktoi Books/Red Hen Press 2009) www.redhen.org/arktoi.asp www.chinginchen.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:12:54 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: Calling poetry reviewers for 2 titles for Jacket magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poeticists, If you would like to review one of these very different poetry collections please contact me on the backchannel p.brown62@gmail.com Ghost Dance in 33 Movements by Anny Ballardini (Otoliths) further info: http://mhcyoung.blogspot.com/2009/02/now-out-from-otoliths-anny-ballardinis.html Crab & Winkle by Laurie Duggan (Shearsman) further info : http://www.shearsman.com/pages/books/catalog/2009/dugganThanet.html Thanks a million, Pam Brown ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 18:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Ladies Night - Upstairs @ Erika's -- This Saturday [Amy King, Ana Bo=?utf-8?Q?=C5=BEi=C4=8Devi=C4=87_?= and Jeni Olin] Comments: To: "ViewsNewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This Saturday Night --=C2=A0 Amy King, Ana Bo=C5=BEi=C4=8Devi=C4=87 and Jen= i Olin=E2=80=93 Amy=0AKing is the author of I'm the Man Who Loves You and Antidotes for an= =0AAlibi, and forthcoming, Slaves to Do These Things (Blazevox Books). For= =0Ainformation on the reading series Amy co-curates, please visit The=0ASta= in of Poetry: A Reading Series (http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/) or vis= it her at www.amyking.org. Ana Bo=C5=BEi=C4=8Devi=C4=87 emigrated to NYC from Croatia in 1997. Her fir= st book, Stars of the Night Commute, will be published by Tarpaulin Sky Pre= ss in Fall 2009. I.e., stars will appear in the sky. Her most recent chapbo= ok, God, Sebastian, Amy, is available from Flying Guillotine Press. With Am= y King, she curates the Stain of Poetry reading series. For more, visit nightcommute.org and stainofpoetry.com. Jeni=0AOlin lives in Manhattan where she rages in "posh isolation" with her= =0Amaltese dog Good Times. Jeni received her BA & MFA from Naropa=0AUnivers= ity. Her first full-length book BLUE COLLAR HOLIDAY was=0Apublished by Hang= ing Loose in 2005. Her most recent publication is a=0Achapbook of pharmaceu= tical sonnets about antidepressants titled THE=0APILL BOOK from Faux Press,= 2008. She is currently working on a=0Amanuscript called EVERYBODY LEAVES. = Also she is changing her name to=0ATruck Darling and her friends call her t= ruck... =0A=0A=0A=0ASaturday, March 21, 2009=0A=0A=0A=0A7:30pm - 10:30pm @ erika's loft=0A=0AWilliamsburg -- South=0A Brooklyn, NY=0A=0AL Train to B= edford=0A=0A Email me at amyhappens@gmail.com for the address... _______ =0A =0A =0A =0AAmy's Alias =0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:03:05 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pam Brown Subject: Thanks VERY much - Jacket has found reviewers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poeticists, Thanks once again for your responses to a call for reviewers for Jacket magazine. We have assigned reviewers for both Anny Ballardini's & Laurie Duggan's books. You're all terrific, Pam ____________________________________ blog : http://thedeletions.blogspot.com website : http://pambrownbooks.blogspot.com/ associate editor : http://jacketmagazine.com/ _____________________________________ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 06:12:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: { brad brace } Subject: Taka Tunes Taka Tales In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sound Design 2008: Taka Tales from Narikel Jingira Island, Bangladesh (Art Exhibition with Installed Audio, Tea and free Taka Tunes CDs) available from Brad Brace flyer: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/taka-tunes.jpg complete recordings sometimes playing now: http://69.64.229.114:8000 mp3 podcast materials: http://216.70.118.235/two-taka-tunes-podcast/two-taka-tunes-podcast.html Scene: extensive, evocative audio field-recordings from a concrete Bangladeshi guesthouse looking back on a thatched bamboo village by the Bay of Bengal, with an exhibit of particularly well-used, framed two-taka banknotes. bbs: brad brace sound: http://69.64.229.114:8000 Global Islands Project: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/id.html http://bbrace.net/id.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:13:21 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Sal Salasin - RIP Comments: To: new-poetry-admin@wiz.cath.vt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear readers of RP, and friends of Sal Salasin, I'd like to=0Ashare with you a note from Elisa Salasin, niece of Sal, the f= ounding=0Aeditor of RealPoetik. Sal passed away yesterday. Please leave you= r=0Anotes for Sal's family in the comment field. And we'll give the last=0A= word to Sal. Your interim editor, Ana http://realpoetikblog.blogspot.com/ Dear Friends of Sal Salasin, I'm=0Awriting to let you all know that my uncle Robert, otherwise known as= =0ASal and Roberto and Uncle Bob, passed away this evening. He was the=0Afi= ghting spirit that you all knew and loved until close to the end, not=0Awil= ling to give in to death unless there were good writers involved. It=0Awas Shakespeare that carried him over. At one point in the afternoon= =0ASal asked when Shakespeare would be arriving. I held his hand and said= =0Athat Shakespeare was on his way. He asked if Shakespeare would be=0Ataki= ng him upstairs. I said that yes, Shakespeare was coming to take=0Ahim upst= airs, and once there they=E2=80=99d meet up with Neruda and Cervantes=0Aand= Lorca, and they=E2=80=99d talk about poetry together. I told him there wer= e=0Alots of un-unionized workers that needed to be organized, and lots of= =0Apoets waiting for him in heaven, and that Shakespeare would be arriving= =0Avery soon to guide him there. Sal began repeating, =E2=80=9CShakespeare = is=0Acoming... Shakespeare is coming. He=E2=80=99s coming soon...=E2=80=9D = His body=0Auntensed, and he fell into a quiet sleep. I sat with him for awh= ile,=0Aholding my hand over his heart, whispering that Shakespeare would be= =0Athere before too long, that we all love him, but that he was free to go. It=0Awas the most peaceful sleep I=E2=80=99d seen in days, so I left him in= the care=0Aof his continuous-care nurse, an incredibly gentle & perceptive= =0APakistani man named Erfan. Before I returned Sal=E2=80=99s spirit was go= ne. He=0Ahad woken up briefly, and Erfan held him as his took his last brea= ths.=0AShakespeare arrived to escort him upstairs. Sal requested that=0Ahis ashes be scattered off of the Staten Island Ferry.= I will be in=0Atouch when arrangements are made for this to happen. Howeve= r, in the=0Amean time please know that I read each and every one of the mes= sages=0Aand poems that were sent to him by all of you. Even in his final da= ys=0Athey never failed to make him smile, and he was truly amazed every tim= e=0AI'd bring in a new pile. I believe they brought a measure of completion= =0Ato his life that might not otherwise have been possible. Thank you. With love, Elisa Salasin (and the rest of our family) ~~~ Sal Salasin: And am=0Apleased to inhabit the earth with this species. Goodbye and God bl= ess=0Ayou all. More of the evil work of Denise and her evil twin Denise,=0A= bleeding through my dreams. Man is the only animal that builds jails.=0AHe = can also eat peanuts and chew tobacco. Let's go back to the phones=0Awhere = we'll discuss idempotent transactions in just a moment. Well,=0Ayes, I'm so= rry I did the best I could which was obviously inadequate. Fate and too many painkillers. Recently=0AI had the pleasure of driving alone in an American car on Americ= an=0Aroads listening to American radio from Perth Amboy to Seattle. And thi= s=0Ahad its rewards although it didn't do the planet any good. And=0Aif it makes you feel any better, I didn't use my tongue. I'm also=0Ae= xtremely good at removing the lint after each use and believe I should=0Age= t some credit for that. "By the light of a thousand suns, I am become=0Adea= th." I'd sympathize but all in all, I'd rather talk about me. Just=0Aget my= butt back safe from the K-Mart and I'm yours forever. Sal Salasin, July 24, 1995 Sal=0ASalasin, nasty loner, tasty poet, angry muffo, and now under the=0Avo= lcano with a Spanish vocabulary list and Mexico as lover: I love the=0ABlog= osphere when he=E2=80=99s in it. Here are two recent postings that drew me= =0Aup short -- reading them, I was suddenly living poetry as Sal was=0Awrit= ing it. ~Bob Holman, December 5, 2006http://poetry.about.com/b/2006/12/05/c= ongito-canaricita-two-letters-from-mexico-by-sal-salasin.htm =0A=0A _______ =0A =0A =0A =0AAmy's Alias =0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Logan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit true true i had the honor of gigging with tchicai and on a recent cd he read one of my poems he also writes poems himself On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:40:12 -0500 John Cunningham writes: > I stand corrected. They were both great though, weren't they. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > Sent: March-19-09 10:41 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Logan > > no burton greene is playing with perry robinson > tchicai album on esp was with baraka rudd etc called the new york > art > quartet > ny eye ear control was with don cherry and ayler sound track for > michael > snow film > most are back in print on cd > > On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:06:58 -0500 John Cunningham > writes: > > My first intro to Tchicai was when he recorded with the New York > Eye > > & Ear > > Control - one hell of an album. I can't remember the name of the > > > group > > under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. I > think > > he might > > have appeared on a Roswell Rudd lp for Impulse. Then I lost track > of > > him. > > Great to hear he's playing again - and with Robinson whose > clarinet > > playing, > > particularly in his third-world fusion stuff, I love. Man, I wish > I > > could > > attend that concert. > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > > On > > Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky > > Sent: March-17-09 5:45 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Logan > > > > john tchicai is from denmark lived there now in france > > noah howard ??? you mean?? he lives in brelgium most of the time > > i got em on vinyl too had him sign them > > he plays again in 2 weeks opposite perry robinson anfd burton > > greene > > > > On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 George Bowering > > > > writes: > > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > > > > > > > saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > > > > been homeless 40 years > > > > 1st time playing in 40 years > > > > when did he live in europe?? > > > > > > > > > > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe > Logan > > > > > > > > lived in Denmark? > > > Who did I have him mixed up with? > > > I mean what ESPecially? > > > > > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > > > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > > > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > > > > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and > > Milford > > > > > > Graves, > > > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record > on. > > > > > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > > > > > gb > > > > > > ================================== > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 16:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Carol Novack Subject: Readings next week MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Thursday, March 26th, 7-9pm* *Launch of Heide Hatry: Heads and Tales (Charta Art Books) * *The KGB Bar* 85 East 4th Street, NYC (between Bowery & 2nd Ave. =96 F or Q train to Seco= nd Ave.) http://kgbbar.com *Featuring: * *Roberta Allen, Jennifer Belle, Mary Caponegro, and Carol Novack, with discussion and Q & A by Heide Hatry. * *Bios: * http://kgbbar.com/calendar/events/launch_for_heide_hatrys_heads_and_tales/ No cover. *_________________________________* * * *Saturday, March 28th, 5 =96 7pm* *Smalls Jazz Club Lit Series! jazz, wild features + open mic* *Featuring *Carol Novack & Thad Rutkowski *Smalls Jazz Club * 183 West 10th Street , NYC 10014 where 10th Street meets Seventh Avenue 212-252-5091 cover: $6 --=20 MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: edgy & enlightened art, literature, & music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com "Mapquest If you walk swiftly to reach deadlines, you may miss the turn. If you walk slowly to arrive at specific places, you may miss the turn. Walk without point past the playgrounds and cemeteries, wedding rotunda= s and taverns. Walk only toward possibility without thought and reflection without light." - CN c. 2008 from "Gated Communities" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:57:29 +0100 Reply-To: argotist@fsmail.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeffrey Side Subject: "The Dissembling Poet: Seamus Heaney and the Avant-garde" Comments: To: British Poetics , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New blog entry: http://jeffreyside.tripod.com/ "The Dissembling Poet: Seamus Heaney and the Avant-garde" I came across an interesting interview with Seamus Heaney (a recent recipie= nt of the David Cohen prize for literature, being awarded =C2=A340,000) by = Dennis O'Driscoll (=E2=80=98Beyond All This Fiddle=E2=80=99 ) where Heaney = says about the avant-garde: =E2=80=98It=E2=80=99s an old-fashioned term by now. In literature, nobody c= an cause bother any more. John Ashbery was a kind of avant-garde poet certa= inly and now he=E2=80=99s become a mainstream voice. The work of the =E2=80= =9CLanguage Poets=E2=80=9D and of the alternative poetries in Britain=E2=80= =94associated with people in Cambridge University like J. H. Prynne=E2=80= =94is not the charlatan work some perceive it to be; however, these poets f= orm a kind of cult that shuns general engagement, regarding it as a vulgari= ty and a decadence. There=E2=80=99s a phrase I heard as a criticism of W. H= . Auden and I like the sound of it: somebody said that he didn=E2=80=99t ha= ve the rooted normality of the major talent. I=E2=80=99m not sure the criti= cism applies to Auden, but the gist of it is generally worth considering. E= ven in T. S. Eliot, the big, normal world comes flowing around you. Robert = Lowell went head-on at the times=E2=80=94there was no more literary poet ar= ound, but at the same time he was like a great cement mixer: he just shovel= led the world in and it delivered. Now that=E2=80=99s what I yearn for=E2= =80=94the cement mixer rather than the chopstick.=E2=80=99 Several things about this statement need to be addressed, so I will go thro= ugh it step-by-step to do so..... http://jeffreyside.tripod.com/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:53:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Cunningham helpt clear my head. It was John Tchicai! I remember once he trashed a Danish radio station with his horn. Noah Howard. Odd to see his face in picture, and he's not a kid anymore! Hey, when Cecil Taylor said "For Olim", who was Olim? On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > george et al., > > not sure whom you were thinking of in denmark. > > there is a 5-minute video interview with logan at > > > also do you mean noah howard? he's still alive, recording and touring > > > allbests, > tom orange > > ----------------------- > Subject: Re: Logan > From: George Bowering <[log in to unmask]> > Date:Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > >> saw this late he played 2 weeks ago >> been homeless 40 years >> 1st time playing in 40 years >> when did he live in europe?? >> >> > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > lived in Denmark? > Who did I have him mixed up with? > I mean what ESPecially? > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford > Graves, > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > gb > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George H. Bowering, OC Dull as dishwater. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 10:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: <20090320.154152.3964.0.skyplums@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed That video of the preacher talking with Giuseppe Logan was creepy, wasn't it? gb On Mar 20, 2009, at 12:41 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > true true i had the honor of gigging with tchicai > and on a recent cd he read one of my poems > he also writes poems himself > > On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:40:12 -0500 John Cunningham > writes: >> I stand corrected. They were both great though, weren't they. >> John Herbert Cunningham >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >> On >> Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky >> Sent: March-19-09 10:41 AM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Logan >> >> no burton greene is playing with perry robinson >> tchicai album on esp was with baraka rudd etc called the new york >> art >> quartet >> ny eye ear control was with don cherry and ayler sound track for >> michael >> snow film >> most are back in print on cd >> >> On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:06:58 -0500 John Cunningham >> writes: >>> My first intro to Tchicai was when he recorded with the New York >> Eye >>> & Ear >>> Control - one hell of an album. I can't remember the name of the >> >>> group >>> under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. I >> think >>> he might >>> have appeared on a Roswell Rudd lp for Impulse. Then I lost track >> of >>> him. >>> Great to hear he's playing again - and with Robinson whose >> clarinet >>> playing, >>> particularly in his third-world fusion stuff, I love. Man, I wish >> I >>> could >>> attend that concert. >>> John Herbert Cunningham >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >>> On >>> Behalf Of steve d. dalachinsky >>> Sent: March-17-09 5:45 PM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Logan >>> >>> john tchicai is from denmark lived there now in france >>> noah howard ??? you mean?? he lives in brelgium most of the time >>> i got em on vinyl too had him sign them >>> he plays again in 2 weeks opposite perry robinson anfd burton >>> greene >>> >>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 George Bowering >>> >>> writes: >>>> On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: >>>> >>>>> saw this late he played 2 weeks ago >>>>> been homeless 40 years >>>>> 1st time playing in 40 years >>>>> when did he live in europe?? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe >> Logan >>> >>>> >>>> lived in Denmark? >>>> Who did I have him mixed up with? >>>> I mean what ESPecially? >>>> >>>> Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. >>>> It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. >>>> Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? >>>> >>>> But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and >>> Milford >>>> >>>> Graves, >>>> would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record >> on. >>>> >>>> And I still have them! Vinyl! >>>> >>>> gb >>>> >>>> ================================== >>>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> >>>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines >>> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> ================================== >>> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >>> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >>> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >>> >>> >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines >> & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George H. Bowering, OUH Born without a religion. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 09:31:08 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Tinfish Editor's Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from the past week or so-- http://tinfisheditor.blogspot.com # Lisa Linn Kanae, _Islands Linked by Ocean_ (Bamboo... # Kaia Sand, Jules Boykoff & Guerrilla Poetries # Ian MacMillan & some notes on teaching # Blogging Schwartz, Skyping Metres, Meeting Lederma... # The great linguist aloha, Susan M. Schultz ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 11:53:18 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Gateless Gate" Pages 11-14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear friends, and colleagues: Here are pages 11-14 of "The Gateless Gate": http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate/Pgs%2011-12.htm=20 Introduction (revised): http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate/Intro.htm -Joel =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:52:12 +1300 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Tomorrowland published by Shearsman Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, My new book *Tomorrowland* is just out with Shearsman Books, with a cover collage by Camille Martin - I'll be reading in London with Erin Moure 31 March (Swedenborg House) & in Manchester with Tim Atkins and Philip Davenport 1 April (The Other Room). Please say hello if you do come. Books details below. Lisa ~~ Lisa Samuels, *Tomorrowland*, Shearsman Books 2009. 104pp, 9x6ins, ISBN 9781848610507 http://www.shearsman.com/pages/books/catalog/2009/samuelsTOM.html *Tomorrowland* is a booklength poem of bodily transit and colonial forgetting. Its voices and events perpetually arrive in a new world, whose versions here combine promised lands and historical suicide. Eula moves among these real and imagined place-times with other symbolic names and unnamed figures, and Jack plays death. The primary formal note is the interrupted iambic. The poems of *Tomorrowland* are dense, radiant, lyric divinations. Startlin= g in their jolting intensity and juxtapositions: *so still, you might think young girls bodies had* *been used to make the air.* The astute focus never falters or fades. One thinks of conjuration, of prophecy where there's no separation between a green jacket and the ambiance of an afternoon, and thi= s sure magic will keep us safe into the future. The world joins itself in an energetic twining of language, sound, picture, impulse: "at night she sweated language on her sheets". If this is the future, bring it on. - Anne Waldman Lisa Samuels=92 *Tomorrowland* is a guidebook and diary from an actuality existing among real sea and ships and coastline, history, and contemporary reflection. There are named =93characters,=94 but the true characters are = a colony, a =93we=94 of the newly arrived to this land. The generous and gra= ceful syntax is a fusing agent for yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The reader exults in the accomplishment of the verse. - Alice Notley =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 17:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: <3DF15284-AC7F-4857-84A4-8D445B15CEC5@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to discogs.com," Olim is an Aztec hieroglyph meaning movement, motion and earthquake. This recording is dedicated to the living Spirit of Jimmy Lyons" John Herbert Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: March-21-09 4:53 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Logan Cunningham helpt clear my head. It was John Tchicai! I remember once he trashed a Danish radio station with his horn. Noah Howard. Odd to see his face in picture, and he's not a kid anymore! Hey, when Cecil Taylor said "For Olim", who was Olim? On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > george et al., > > not sure whom you were thinking of in denmark. > > there is a 5-minute video interview with logan at > > > also do you mean noah howard? he's still alive, recording and touring > > > allbests, > tom orange > > ----------------------- > Subject: Re: Logan > From: George Bowering <[log in to unmask]> > Date:Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > >> saw this late he played 2 weeks ago >> been homeless 40 years >> 1st time playing in 40 years >> when did he live in europe?? >> >> > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan > lived in Denmark? > Who did I have him mixed up with? > I mean what ESPecially? > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford > Graves, > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > gb > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > George H. Bowering, OC Dull as dishwater. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: JEREMY JAMES THOMPSON & KAREN RANDALL MONDAY NIGHT SERIES AT THE POETRY PROJECT MARCH 23, 2009 @ 8:00 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable JEREMY JAMES THOMPSON & KAREN RANDALL MONDAY NIGHT SERIES AT THE POETRY PROJECT MARCH 23, 2009 @ 8:00 Jeremy James Thompson is an instructor at New York=B9s Center for Book Arts a= s well as a curator for their New Voices reading series. His work focuses on the process of collaboration, the reinvention of propaganda, and the defining of a practical avant-garde. Through his own Auto Types Press, he has produced collaborative prints with poets including, Edwin Torres, Joan Retallack, David Lehman and Charles Bernstein. His texts and typographic works are published in collections and journals including Cricket Online Review, Pinstripe Fedora, The Houston Literary Review, The Bucky Monkey, Lamination Colony, WORK, and Viz. Inter-Arts, a Trans-Genre Anthology. He blogs about movietelling, typography and poetics at autotypist.blogspot.com= . Karen Randall is an artist who works in the media of words, digital collage (both sound and visual), oil painting, and letterpress printing/artist=B9s books. She is the daughter of an astrophysicist & grew up playing with primitive computers, a very cool chemistry set from the 50s, building short wave radios and a telescope, while also painting & writing poetry. She has taught hands-on science in the Chicago public schools, literary studies in western MA, and letterpress printing at the Center for the Book in NY and a= t Naropa. She developed four-color printing process as a means of combining the fluidity of contemporary digital imagery with the luminous qualities of ink layered on Japanese papers. Her work has been collected by numerous colleges, institutions and private collectors including the Library of Congress. Images of her work can be seen on line at www.propolispress.com. The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. NEXT IN THE MONDAY NIGHT SERIES: March 30th =AD MICHAEL CROSS AND DAVID BUUCK April 27th - SARAH MANGOLD AND RYAN MURPHY May 4th - KRISTIN PALM AND DOROTHEA LASKY May 11th - NANCY KUHL AND SIMON CUTTS =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:02:37 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Abandoned Practices Institute Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ABANDONED PRACTICES =AD something out of the ordinary a NEW PERFORMANCE SUMMER INSTITUTE Hosted by The School of the Art Institute of Chicago (SAIC) www.abandonedpractices.org Monday July 6th =AD Friday 24th 2009 Monday =AD Friday , 9.00 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. Instructors: Matthew Goulish, Lin Hixson, and Mark Jeffery VISITING SCHOLARS=20 Dr. Jane Blocker, writer and Associate Professor, Director of Graduate Studies, Art History Department, University of Minnesota Dr. Paul Clarke, Research Fellow on 'Performing the Archive', University of Bristol & Arnolfini (UK), and director of Uninvited Guests This NEW PERFORMANCE SUMMER INSTITUTE looks forward by looking backward, researching, enacting, and embodying practices that for one reason or another have been disregarded in the wake of progress, and relegated to the archives of history. Students will participate in individual and collaborative projects involving writing, installation, documentation, and live performance. Teachers and visiting scholars will lecture on related subjects. Available for credit or non-credit enrolment. =20 Abandoned practices constitutes an emerging field of inquiry pioneered by Alan Read of King=B9s College, London, author of Theatre, Intimacy, and Engagement: The Last Human Venue (Palgrave Macmillan, 2008). The course focus will allow a thematic meeting place that confronts the common accelerated temporalities of the 21st century, whether in the form of economic and artistic globalization, technology=B9s ceaseless upgrade, or the general shifts in understanding of the word local. The course does not propose that we share a mutual past, but rather that we might mutually discover a shared strategy of thinking about our pasts, a strategy of reimagining and reenacting the different abandoned practices that once defined the ordinary. =20 Week one: Abandoned technologies. Mode: installation. Forgotten machines, crafts, stagecrafts, thought as craft, the place of the hand in art making, player pianos, slowness as resistance. =20 Week two: Abandoned concepts. Mode: writing. The archive as repository of outmoded ideas; the pastoral; the senses. =20 Week three: Abandoned behavior. Mode: performance. Forgotten labor practices; town criers; discontinued social customs. =20 Abandoned Practices is available for non-credit registration at $1710.00, half the regular graduate credit rate. Non SAIC degree-seeking students mus= t include: A short statement that may include education, training, influences= , beliefs, aims, why you wish to participate; plus documentation of your work that may include one of the following: 10 slides and description list; audi= o or video documentation (maximum of 10 minutes); printed material or written statement of your creative work. =20 For further information on this NEW PERFORMANCE SUMMER INSTITUTE please see www.abandonedpractices.org you can als= o contact Mark Jeffery, Performance Faculty, SAIC, at mjeffe@saic.edu . =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:31:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Logan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if i remember i'll ask him saturday he has a gig it's his 80th b day... saw logan again last nite play a bit improved should we back channel all this - steve On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:53:27 -0700 George Bowering <> writes: > Cunningham helpt clear my head. It was John Tchicai! > I remember once he trashed a Danish radio station with his horn. > > Noah Howard. Odd to see his face in picture, > and he's not a kid anymore! > > Hey, when Cecil Taylor said "For Olim", who was Olim? > > > > > On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > > > george et al., > > > > not sure whom you were thinking of in denmark. > > > > there is a 5-minute video interview with logan at > > > > > > also do you mean noah howard? he's still alive, recording and > touring > > > > > > allbests, > > tom orange > > > > ----------------------- > > Subject: Re: Logan > > From: George Bowering <[log in to unmask]> > > Date:Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 > > > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: > > > >> saw this late he played 2 weeks ago > >> been homeless 40 years > >> 1st time playing in 40 years > >> when did he live in europe?? > >> > >> > > This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe > Logan > > lived in Denmark? > > Who did I have him mixed up with? > > I mean what ESPecially? > > > > Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. > > It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. > > Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? > > > > But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and > Milford > > Graves, > > would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. > > > > And I still have them! Vinyl! > > > > gb > > > > ================================== > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > > welcome.html > > > > George H. Bowering, OC > Dull as dishwater. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 21:43:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mark Lamoureux Subject: 3 New Titles from Cy Gist Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spring is coming! The robins have returned, Mr. Softee has returned and so = have the annoying Harley guys who make a lot of noise and set off all the c= ar alarms on your street. And Cy Gist Press has returned with 3 new titles = for your vernal enjoyment.=0A=0AKATE SCHAPIRA'S THE LOVE OF FREAK MILWAYS A= ND TANGO WAX=0A=0A(20 pp. Sewn Binding) $8 ppd.=0A=0AKate Schapira gives us= a gender-neutral utopian porno. Nonviolent slapstick for a new century, Th= e Love of Freak Milways and Tango Wax=E2=80=99s dumpster-diving heroes eke = out a breathless place amid the detritus of the disintegrating city. With s= omething for everyone but not much of anything, Freak & Tango get off for y= our sins trussed high above the overpass.=0A=0AGEOF HUTH'S GINGERBREAD=0A= =0A(12 pp. Sewn Binding.) $7 ppd.=0A=0ABegun in the excess of the 80=E2=80= =99s, finished in 2008 at the gate of our present grief, Geof Huth=E2=80=99= s fable of annihilation, Gingerbread, offers a cautionary tale for an age s= mothered by its own girth. Tumescent with sweet words, Huth=E2=80=99s night= mare of dreamy hovels rotten at the core thrusts its stake true to the righ= t eye of our age of overcompensated executives and shriveled mortgages.=0A= =0AMARK LAMOUREUX'S BERLIN POEMS=0A=0A(16 pp. Sewn Binding) $7 ppd.=0A=0AWr= itten during and around a trip to Germany in 2008, Berlin Poems features ek= phrastic poems based on work in art museums in Munich and Berlin=E2=80=94Ma= x Beckmann, Ernst Ludwig Kirchner, Naum Gabo and others. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 04:00:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sundries from Second Life, sound, the world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed from Second Life, sound, the world: http://www.alansondheim.org/ smoke bmps - small half-formed deconstructions of smoke and fire simulacra http://www.alansondheim.org/burn.mp4 - finally a video of fire simulacrum in vortex/firedraft movement http://www.alansondheim.org/esazd.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/esaze.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/esazf.mp3 - three difficult (for me) electric saz pieces http://www.alansondheim.org/ where pngs - small resonant webcam images from around the world ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 11:02:16 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Peter Subject: Message - from discarded poems series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message - from discarded poems series http://ciccariello.viewbook.com/wreakage - Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 04:51:16 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Jordan Stempleman and Kristen Orser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out awesome stuff from birthday boy Jordan Stempleman of Kansas and C= hi-Town's very own Kristen Orser on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 =A0 =A0 "Chimes" is here: http://www.blazevox.org/bk-af.htm =A0 "Chimes" is on Pennsound: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Fieled.php =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:23:01 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Cara Benson Subject: Poetry & Pop Music Workshop at Millay Colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Millay Colony's first not-for-residents-only worksh= Hey Listees! =0A=0AMillay Colony's=C2=A0first not-for-residents-only worksh= op is=C2=A0coming right up. Here's the info:=0A=0AApril 29 to May 3=C2=A0 = =0APoetry & Pop-Music =0AwithChris Stroffolino =0A=0AMost accounts of the h= istory of poetry (both lyric and epic, or narrative), as well as the histor= y of 'popular song' show the two have a common ancestor, or were one and th= e same.=C2=A0 Despite the contemporary specialization between these genres,= lyric poetry and song lyrics still share many of the same assumptions, on = the levels of both form and content. This workshop will explore whether the= boundary between these two genres (poetry and lyrics), especially as conce= ived of during the "American Century," has largely outlived its usefulness,= and will consider seriously (and hopefully with pleasure as well) whether = any discussion of "American Poetry" of the last 100 years ("modern") can ev= en come close to being representative if it doesn't include "Ain't That A S= hame," at least as much as, say, "The Red Wheelbarrow." =0A=0AWe will striv= e to approach these issues in a non-dogmatic way. Depending on the needs & = interests of the workshop participants), possible assignments include "tran= slations" (from song-lyrics to poetry, and vice versa), music-criticism-as-= an-artform, poems 'about' songs, songs 'inside' poems, formal issues, 3-dim= ensional scansion, phonemes, music as metaphor, metaphor as music. "High" v= s. "Low" culture; the raw and the cooked, Dada, didacticism, performance, p= ersona, identity, nature. Students are encouraged to let the teacher know i= n advance their particular interests; I'll do my best to accommodate.=0A=0A= Chris Stroffolino is the author of 7 books of poetry, and prose criticism (= including Spin Cycle (2001), a selection of essays on mostly contemporary p= oetry, and with Dave Rosenthal, a critical study guide to Shakespeare's Twe= lfth Night.) A recipient of a 2001 NYFA Grant and a 2008 Fund For Poetry gr= ant, Stroffolino's work has appeared in A Body Electric, Isn=E2=80=99t It R= omantic, and other anthologies, and has been translated into Dutch, Bengali= and Spanish. His music and cultural criticism has appeared in such venues = as The Big Takeover, Kitchen Sink, and Oakbook (Novometro). He has also pla= yed in various rock bands, including Silver Jews, Continuous Peasant and th= e Root Rats. He was a Distinguished Visiting Professor of Poetry at St. Mar= y's College from 2001-2006, and currently lives in Oakland.=0A=C2=A0=0AFor = the full info, go to http://www.millaycolony.org/workshops=0A=0AOnly six pa= rticipants per workshop, so space is limited. =0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0= =0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A=0A__________=0A=0Ahttp://www.necessetics.com=0A=0A= http://www.necessetics.com/sousrature.html=0A=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:38:54 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: me and the bbc imagine that MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tonight i was on bbc jazz on 3 with my composer friend pete wyer also played was music by ornette tchicai (doin a poem by me) and others it will be up on their site for the next 7 days take a listen if any one wants a link back channel me steve ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gary Sullivan Subject: SHERRY + VICU=?Windows-1252?Q?=D1A_?= | SEGUE @ BPC | SAT MAR 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SEGUE READING SERIES @ BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturday March 28=2C 4:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m.=20 308 BOWERY=2C just north of Houston=20 $6 admission goes to support the readers James Sherry is the author of more than 10 books of poetry and prose. His m= ost recent publication=2C Sorry: Environmental Poetics=2C is forthcoming fr= om Factory School later this year. He is the editor/publisher of Roof Books= and founder of The Segue Foundation.=20 Cecilia Vicu=F1a performs and exhibits her work widely in Europe=2C Latin A= merica and the U.S. Templo e=92Saliva / Spit Temple=2C a collection of her = oral performances=2C edited by Rosa Alcal=E1=2C is forthcoming by Factory S= chool Press. The Segue Reading Series is made possible by the support of The Segue Found= ation. For more information=2C please visit seguefoundation.com=2C bowerypo= etry.com=2C or call (212) 614-0505. Curators for February-March: Nada Gordo= n & Gary Sullivan. _________________________________________________________________ Internet Explorer 8 =96 Now Available. Faster=2C safer=2C easier. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/141323790/direct/01/= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:26:47 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: InCUBATE: Chicago residency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We invite thinkers from all disciplines to InCUBATE! InCUBATE invites you to apply for a Person-in-Residence! Chicago, IL The Institute for Community Understanding Between Art and The Everyday is a research institute dedicated to challenging current infrastructures, specifically how they affect artistic production. As art historians and arts administrators, our goal is to explore the possibility of developing financial models that could be relevant to contemporary art institutions, as well as collective or individiual artist projects workings outside an institution. All the info is here: http://incubate-chicago.org/residency ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:31:04 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Come Hear ! a free LGBTQ Poetry Reading at New York City's Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Community Center Saturday March 28th from 1-4pm Comments: To: "ViewsNewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Nathaniel Siegel=0A[mailto:nathanielsiegel@nyc.rr.com]=20 =0A Dear Friends:=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0AI am pleased to announce an upcoming Poetry = Reading: Come Hear ! at New York City=E2=80=99s Lesbian=0A Gay Bisexual=0A = Transgender Community=0A Center.=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0APoets Bill Kushner, Eile= en Myles,=0ATim Peterson, Betsy Andrews,=0AMoonshine Shorey, Carol Mirakove= , Joseph O. Legaspi, Jen=0A Benka, Guillermo Castro,=0A=0AElizabeth Reddin,= and Regie Cabico=0Awill read their work on Saturday March 28th from 1-4 pm= at the=0ACenter located at=0A=0A208 West 13th=0A Street (between 7th and = 8th=0AAvenues) in the West=0A Village.=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0AThe Poetry Reading = is free and open to the public. Come Hear ! will=0Atake place during the NY= Rainbow Book Fair: a LGBT Book Fair with publishers,=0Aauthors, performanc= e artists, a panel on the future of LGBT literature, and=0Abooks to browse,= read and buy !=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0AFor additional information on this Poetry = Reading, please feel free to=0Acontact Nathaniel Siegel by email at nathani= elsiegel@nyc.rr.com.=0A=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0AFor additional information on the = NY Rainbow Book Fair, go to www.gaycenter.org or call the LGBT Center=0Aph = 1 212 620 7310.=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0ASee you Saturday at the Center !=0A=0A=C2= =A0=0A=0AAll best wishes,=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0ANathaniel=0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0APS: P= lease circulate widely: help spread the Good Gay Word ! _______ =0A =0A =0AAmy's Alias =0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:34:47 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: This Friday, March 27th - Chace, Georgiou, Greenhouse, King, Peet, Price in Brooklyn! Comments: To: "ViewsNewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stain of Poetry presents =0A =0A*Joel Chace, Elena Georgiou, Stuart Greenhouse, Cindy King, Christian =0APeet & Brett Price* =0A =0AMarch 27th @ 7pm =0A =0AJoel Chace has published poetry and prose poetry in print and =0Aelectronic magazines such as 6ix, Tomorrow, Lost and Found Times, =0ACoracle, xStream, Three Candles, 2River View, Joey & the Black Boots, =0ARecursive Angel, and Veer. He has published more than a dozen print =0Aand electronic collections. Just out from BlazeVox Books is CLEANING =0ATHE MIRROR: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, and from Paper Kite Press is =0AMATTER NO MATTER, another full-length collection. Two chapbook-length =0Apoetic sequences have also recently been published: SCAFFOLD, from =0ACountry ValleyPress; and (b)its, a "Tiny Book" from Eileen Tabios's =0AMeritage Press. For many years, Chace has been Poetry Editor for the =0Aexperimental electronic magazine 5_Trope. =0A =0A~~~ =0A =0AElena Georgiou is the author of Rhapsody of the Naked Immigrant =0A(Harbor Mountain Press, 2009) and mercy mercy me, which won a Lambda =0ALiterary Award for poetry, was a finalist for the Publishing Triangle =0AAward, and was reissued by the University of Wisconsin Press in 2003. =0AShe is also co-editor (with Michael Lassell) of the poetry anthology, =0AThe World In Us (St. Martin's Press). Georgiou has won an Astraea =0AEmerging Writers Award, a New York Foundation of the Arts Fellowship, =0Aand was a fellow at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts. Her =0Arecent work appears in Denver Quarterly, BOMB, MiPoesia, Lumina, Spoon =0ARiver Review, Cream City Review, and Gargoyle. She is an editor at =0ATarpaulin Sky and a member of the faculty in the MFA program at =0AGoddard College, Vermont. =0A =0A~~~ =0A =0AStuart Greenhouse is the author of the chapbook What Remains =0A(published by the Poetry Society of America) and the e-chapbook "All =0AArchitecture" (published by End & Shelf Press). He lives in New Jersey =0Awith his wife and children. =0A =0A~~~ =0A =0ACynthia Arrieu-King is an assistant professor of creative writing at =0AStockton College in New Jersey. Her poems have or will appear this =0Ayear in LIT, The Lumberyard, Black Warrior Review, Forklift Ohio and =0Athe new horseless press anthology on collaboration. =0A =0A~~~ =0A =0AChristian Peet is the author of Big American Trip (Shearsman Books, =0A2009) and two chapbooks: The Nines, Book 2 (Interbirth Books, 2009), =0Aand The Nines, Book 1 (Palm Press, 2006). His work appears in the =0Aanthology, A Best Of Fence: The First Nine Years, and in journals such =0Aas Action Yes, Denver Quarterly, Octopus Magazine, Practice: New =0AWriting + Art, and SleepingFish, among others. He lives in Vermont, =0Awhere he runs Tarpaulin Sky Press. =0A =0A~~~ =0A =0ABrett Price is an assistant editor of Forklift, Ohio: A Journal of =0APoetry, Cooking, and Light Industrial Safety. He is working toward an =0AMFA at Bard College. He is the author of Trouble With Mapping, a =0Achapbook (Flying Guillotine, 2008). Other writing can be found in =0AH_NGM_N, OCTOPUS, LA FOVEA, BIG BELL, and MILKMONEY. He lives in =0ABrooklyn, NY. =0A =0A~~~ =0A =0Astain =0A766 grand street =0Abrooklyn, ny 11211 =0A(L train to Grand Street, =0A1 block west) =0A718/387-7840 =0Aopen daily @ 5 p.m. =0A =0A~~~~ =0A =0AHosted by Amy King and Ana Bo=C5=BEi=C4=8Devi=C4=87 =0A =0AVisit www.stainofpoetry.com =0Afor full calendar! _______ =0A =0A =0AAmy's Alias =0Ahttp://amyking.org/=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:25:30 -0500 Reply-To: dgodston@gmail.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Daniel Godston Organization: Borderbend Arts Collective Subject: Sonic Bridge 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sonic Bridge 2 =20 Although people have many different opinions about what should be done = about the U.S.-Mexico border and U.S. immigration policy, it is probably more generally agreed that ideas, sound, and video should and can travel = freely across borders. Hundreds of miles of wall and fence separate the United States and Mexico, but performers in Chicago, Tucson, Mexico City, = Veracruz, and Buenos Aires will be part of a long-distance, "telematic" = performance event which will perpendicularly run through the U.S.-Mexico border = wall. Artists in all these remote locations will interact with each other in = real time via the Internet on Tuesday, March 24, 2009.=20 (8 p.m. CDT / 7 p.m. MDT / 6pm PDT / midnight Buenos Aires) at Elastic Sound & Vision Gallery (Chicago): Amanda Gutierrez -- samples Jayve Montgomery -- saxophones & electronics Carlos Cumpian -- poetry Dan Godston -- trumpet & small instruments Williwaw -- amplified ukulele Ian Hatcher -- gockenspiel Noe Cuellar -- translations/text feed at KAMP studio in Tucson, Arizona (1570 AM): Glenn Weyant -- Kestrel 920 Steev Hise -- laptop in Mexico City: Kai Kraatz -- Nordlead Daniel Lara -- FAT BOX Antonio Dominguez -- video in Veracruz:=20 Ernesto Romero -- laptop in Buenos Aires:=20 Buenissimo Collective Valeria Cammano Caama=F1o=20 Agustin Genoud=20 Leonello Zambon=20 Josefina Zuain=20 Azucena Losana -- video Listen to the full mix via internet audio stream from anywhere at http://kamp.arizona.edu Watch the video streams from various locations: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sonicbridge http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sonicbridge-tucson http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sonic-bridge-2---buenos-aires http://www.ustream.tv/channel/sonic-bridge-m%C3%89xico-df Elastic Sound & Vision Gallery=20 2830 N. Milwaukee Ave., 2nd floor Chicago, IL 773-772-3616 $7 suggested donation http://www.elasticrevolution.com/=20 http://kamp.arizona.edu/=20 http://sonicbridge.blogspot.com/=20 http://www.guvarchive.net/ http://www.sonicanta.com/home.html http://www.myspace.com/buenisssimo=20 http://jayvejohnmontgomery.com/=20 http://www.donkeyscratch.com=20 http://www.futurevessel.com/noe/=20 http://www.kaikraatz.com=20 http://www.youtube.com/user/azulosa http://www.myspace.com/dangodstonmusic=20 http://detritus.net/steev http://telematicarts.blogspot.com/ =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Herbert Cunningham Subject: Christian Bok and Pataphysics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, Christian Bok makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon my own poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American book that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical work. Any comments? John Herbert Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:30:25 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Tomorrowland published by Shearsman Books In-Reply-To: <5e93e4440903221452i74ba8f44qf5409d4a045bd07f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit mazel tov, lisa! Lisa Samuels wrote: > Dear All, > My new book *Tomorrowland* is just out with Shearsman Books, with a cover > collage by Camille Martin - > I'll be reading in London with Erin Moure 31 March (Swedenborg House) & in > Manchester with Tim Atkins > and Philip Davenport 1 April (The Other Room). Please say hello if you do > come. > Books details below. > Lisa > > ~~ > > Lisa Samuels, *Tomorrowland*, Shearsman Books 2009. 104pp, 9x6ins, ISBN > 9781848610507 > > http://www.shearsman.com/pages/books/catalog/2009/samuelsTOM.html > > *Tomorrowland* is a booklength poem of bodily transit and colonial > forgetting. Its voices and events perpetually arrive in a new world, whose > versions here combine promised lands and historical suicide. Eula moves > among these real and imagined place-times with other symbolic names and > unnamed figures, and Jack plays death. The primary formal note is the > interrupted iambic. > > The poems of *Tomorrowland* are dense, radiant, lyric divinations. Startling > in their jolting intensity and juxtapositions: *so still, you might think > young girls bodies had* *been used to make the air.* The astute focus never > falters or fades. One thinks of conjuration, of prophecy where there's no > separation between a green jacket and the ambiance of an afternoon, and this > sure magic will keep us safe into the future. The world joins itself in an > energetic twining of language, sound, picture, impulse: "at night she > sweated language on her sheets". If this is the future, bring it on. > > - Anne Waldman > > Lisa Samuels’ *Tomorrowland* is a guidebook and diary from an actuality > existing among real sea and ships and coastline, history, and contemporary > reflection. There are named “characters,” but the true characters are a > colony, a “we” of the newly arrived to this land. The generous and graceful > syntax is a fusing agent for yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The reader > exults in the accomplishment of the verse. > > > > - Alice Notley > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:45:08 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: <00bd01c9ac88$e865b880$b9312980$@ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit but it is not... On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham wrote: > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, Christian Bok > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon my own > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American book > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical work. > Any comments? > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: me and the bbc imagine that MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:38:54 -0400 "steve d. dalachinsky" writes: > > tonight i was on bbc jazz on 3 with my composer friend pete wyer > also played was music by ornette tchicai (doin a poem by me) > and others > it will be up on their site for the next 7 days take a listen if any > one just got one link listed under i beliecve pete wyer and steve dalachinsky insomnia poems steve > http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00j8f1f > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Das Kapital to be Transformed into Chinese Musical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (the transformation from original text to japanese manga to chinese opera reminds me of all the babelfish translations we do) http://www.metamute.org/en/das_kapital_to_be_transformed_into_chinese_music= al Perhaps a bit of fancy footwork and a catchy show tune is the key to introducing a new generation to Karl Marx=92s Das Kapital. At least that=92s what He Nian, director of the upcoming musical, is anticipating for the Shanghai theatregoers. The play which is on schedule to open next year, is meant to serve as a kind of =91edutainment=92 providing the audience with amusement but also an intellectually sound interpretation of Marx=92s work. Shanghaiist and The Guardian report more extensively: http://shanghaiist.com/2009/03/17/can_marxist_masterpiece_hit_the_chi.php Screw Shakespeare and forget that Chinese opera business - right now, preparations are underway to bring a sing-song version of Karl Marx's Das Kapital to the Shanghai theater. This particular rendition of Marx's treatise against capitalism is borrowed from "a best-selling Japanese manga adaptation". We're not sure if anime and Marxism go hand-in-hand, but He Nian, Das Kapital's director has ambitious hopes for the play, according to Danwei: He Nian says he will combine elements from animation, Broadway musicals, and Las Vegas stage shows to bring Marx's economic theories to life as a trendy, interesting, and educational play... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:37:11 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: <00bd01c9ac88$e865b880$b9312980$@ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My novel Bystander: An Irreality published by BlazeVOX makes claims to be a post-apocalytic 'pataphysical novella.... Written in the manner of "How to construct a time machine" & _Exploits and Opinions of Dr Faustroll_ http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ma.htm On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham wrote: > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, Christian Bok > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon my own > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American book > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical work. > Any comments? > > John Herbert Cunningham ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:30:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: One More Event This Week... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sorry for the extra message, but this got left out of the newsletter yester= day... Talking Leaves...Books, Just Buffalo, Hallwalls Reading and Booksigning with Gabrielle Burton Sunday, March 29, 2009 =40 3:00 PM Western New York Book Arts Collaborative Longtime Buffalonian Gabrielle Burton returns to celebrate publication of h= er new book,=A0Searching for Tamsen Donner, a melding of history and memoir= in which she retraces some of Donner's journeys in an attempt to solve the= mystery of this historical figure.=A0 Burton's Heartbreak Hotel, a novel s= et in Buffalo, won the Maxwell Perkins Prize. Venue Information Western New York Book Arts Collaborative 468 Washington Street (at the Corner of Mohawk) Buffalo UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:49:44 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Lovelace Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: <00bd01c9ac88$e865b880$b9312980$@ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, As for specific claims/examples of North American projects, there aren't many that spring to mind that would be congruent with the scale, conception & self-labeling of *Crystallography*, but I'm in line w/ Craig Dworkin when he describes some conceptual projects as being egregiously/increasingly 'pataphysical. I recall that on the final episode of Kareem Estefan's radio show *Ceptuetics*, which is archived at PennSound, Dworkin points to Goldsmith's *No 111* specifically & I would throw in Dworkin's recent, excellent *Parse* as well. Cheers, Patrick On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham < johncunningham366@shaw.ca> wrote: > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, Christian > Bok > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon my > own > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American book > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical work. > Any comments? > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:50:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: patrick dunagan Subject: Rossetti - la beatrice di dante MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone into Rossetti and aware of his text on Dante: la Beatrice di Dante apparently only published once in Italian: http://openlibrary.org/b/OL19946861M/Beatrice-di-Dante? It comes up in Leon Surette's Birth of Modernism... anyway, anyone read it? Know of plans to translate and publish it in English? and/or just what it consists of--- aside from the argument that "beatrice was not a real woman but an embodiment of philosophy"--- like is it more or less an extension of material/ideas of Rossetti's to be found elsewhere... Thanks, Patrick ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:27:36 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Recommendations for grammar books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, all-- A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always came pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology therein). cheers, Andy ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:41:35 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Logan In-Reply-To: <002901c9ab40$40193420$c04b9c60$@com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Wow! Thanks for that, John. gtb On Mar 22, 2009, at 3:47 PM, John Cunningham wrote: > According to discogs.com," Olim is an Aztec hieroglyph meaning > movement, > motion and earthquake. This recording is dedicated to the living > Spirit of > Jimmy Lyons" > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: March-21-09 4:53 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Logan > > Cunningham helpt clear my head. It was John Tchicai! > I remember once he trashed a Danish radio station with his horn. > > Noah Howard. Odd to see his face in picture, > and he's not a kid anymore! > > Hey, when Cecil Taylor said "For Olim", who was Olim? > > > > > On Mar 16, 2009, at 7:19 AM, Tom Orange wrote: > >> george et al., >> >> not sure whom you were thinking of in denmark. >> >> there is a 5-minute video interview with logan at >> >> >> also do you mean noah howard? he's still alive, recording and touring >> >> >> allbests, >> tom orange >> >> ----------------------- >> Subject: Re: Logan >> From: George Bowering <[log in to unmask]> >> Date:Sun, 15 Mar 2009 00:33:27 -0700 >> >> On Mar 3, 2009, at 12:05 PM, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: >> >>> saw this late he played 2 weeks ago >>> been homeless 40 years >>> 1st time playing in 40 years >>> when did he live in europe?? >>> >>> >> This has been driving me nuts. Why did I think that Giuseppe Logan >> lived in Denmark? >> Who did I have him mixed up with? >> I mean what ESPecially? >> >> Oh, around 1966-1976 ESP Disk ran my imagination. >> It was so sweetly exciting and mysterious, all that time. >> Whatever, I want to know, happened to Noah Webster? >> >> But my two little dogs, who were brought up on Coltrane and Milford >> Graves, >> would run out of the room when I put a Giuseppe Logan record on. >> >> And I still have them! Vinyl! >> >> gb >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > George H. Bowering, OC > Dull as dishwater. > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Geo. H. Bowering Patient and tolerant driver. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:35:40 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In writing about Christopher Dewdney's book of poetry, A Paleozoic Geology of London Ontario (Toronto: Coach House 1973), Steve McCaffery describes Dewdney's work as investigating "vertically and structurally by means of an intellectual framework of 'pataphysical model from which the principle can be examined in function under a controlled situation. I mention 'pataphysics as that term comes closest to describing Dewdney's methodology." This is in McCaffery's essay, "Strata and Strategy: 'Pataphysics in the Poetry of Christopher Dewdney," in North of Intention (New York & Toronto: Roof & Nightwood 1986). I would think some of McCaffery's work should also be considered 'pataphysical. One might do well to begin with his magnificent book, Panopticon (Toronto: blewointmentpress 1984). In addition, the work of the Toronto Research Group should be considered in any study of 'pataphysical works in the last few decades. The best collection of those works is by Steve McCaffery & bpNichol, Rational Geomancy: The Kids of the Book-Machine, The Collected Research Reports of the Toronto Research Group 1973-1982 (Vancouver: Talonbooks 1992). charles At 10:37 AM 3/24/2009, you wrote: >My novel Bystander: An Irreality published by BlazeVOX makes claims to >be a post-apocalytic 'pataphysical novella.... Written in the manner >of "How to construct a time machine" & _Exploits and Opinions of Dr >Faustroll_ > >http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ma.htm > > >On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham > wrote: > > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, > Christian Bok > > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry > upon my own > > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American book > > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical work. > > Any comments? > > > > John Herbert Cunningham > >================================== >The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Charles Alexander Chax Press 411 N 7th Ave Suite 103 Tucson, AZ 85705-8332 520-620-1626 (Chax Press) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com http://chax.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:33:22 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Cunningham Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for that enigmatic response, Catherine. Care to be a little more verbose? John Herbert Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Catherine Daly Sent: March-24-09 11:45 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics but it is not... On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham wrote: > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, Christian Bok > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon my own > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American book > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical work. > Any comments? > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 06:52:00 +0900 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Hugh Nicoll Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? In-Reply-To: <924528.96029.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, *The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language* (Hardcover) by Rodney D. Huddleston (Author), Geoffrey K. Pullum , Cambridge U. P. (2002) is now widely regarded as having supplanted Randolph Quirk's* A Comprehensive Grammar of English*, Longman, (1985). Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, Oxford U. P. (2005), and A Communicative Grammar of English, 3rd ed., Leech, G. and Svarvtik, J., Pearson, (2003) are far less comprehensive but useful. Why not suggest that your former student browse a good library or bookstore and make the choice or choices that best meet his needs. Hugh Nicoll On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:27 AM, Andy Gricevich wrote: > Hello, all-- > > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, > comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always came > pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and > never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher > myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, > well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." > > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is > reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology > therein). > > cheers, > > Andy > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > -- Hugh Nicoll JALT LD-SIG Coordinator ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:31:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Chris Wilson Subject: Hilda Morley: seeking biographical info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a thesis on the poet Hilda Morley (Wolpe), I am seeking biographical information and reminiscences from those who knew her. Please back channel replies to: Chris Wilson cwilson@sfsu.edu ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:16:14 +1100 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Caleb Cluff Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fowler's usage. -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Andy Gricevich Sent: Wednesday, 25 March 2009 7:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Recommendations for grammar books? Hello, all-- A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always came pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing."=20 (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology therein).=20 cheers, Andy =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =20 = Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.=0D=0A=0D=0A= The information contained in this email and any attachment is confident= ial and=0D=0Amay contain legally privileged or copyright material. It= is intended only for=0D=0Athe use of the addressee(s). If you are not= the intended recipient of this=0D=0Aemail, you are not permitted to di= sseminate, distribute or copy this email or=0D=0Aany attachments. If y= ou have received this message in error, please notify the=0D=0Asender i= mmediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not=0D= =0Arepresent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free.= Before=0D=0Aopening any attachment you should check for viruses. Th= e ABC's liability is=0D=0Alimited to resupplying any email and attachme= nts.= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Yr going to have to check out bpNichol, especially re the 'pataphysical, especially distinguishing the "pataphysical, which denotes the Canadian 'pataphysical, esp. the "pata of little feet", the latter poetic. gb On Mar 24, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > but it is not... > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham > wrote: >> In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, >> Christian Bok >> makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry >> upon my own >> poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, >> Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North >> American book >> that specifically claims to be or would be considered a >> 'pataphysical work. >> Any comments? >> >> John Herbert Cunningham >> >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ >> welcome.html >> > > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/ > welcome.html > Dr. George Bowering, Keeper of the eternal flume. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:11:05 +0100 Reply-To: argotist@fsmail.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Jacket Magazine need articles, thoughts, opinions on Seamus Heaney's career in poetry Comments: To: British Poetics , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jacket Magazine is looking for responses to an article I=E2=80=99ve written= on Seamus Heaney, and which touches on his association with The Group, Hob= sbaum, early career etc., which can be found here: http://jacketmagazine.com/37/heaney-side.shtml At the time of writing, only the first part of the article is online, the s= econd part should be online in a few hours. Jacket especially needs articles, or shorter pieces, giving information or = insights that might answer the question: =E2=80=9CHow did Heaney accomplish= in so relatively short a period the almost universal admiration he now enj= oys given his fairly modest talent? (The phrasing is mine, not Jacket's) Ja= cket simply wants informative articles on Heaney's career in poetry, which = may shed light on the mechanisms of his ascendency . Send anything you have to: http://jacketmagazine.com/00/letters2the-editor.shtml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:12:55 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Tchicai In-Reply-To: <00ed01c9a7e3$928f4f10$b7aded30$@com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mar 18, 2009, at 9:06 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > . I can't remember the name of the group > under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. There was the John Tchicai--Irene Schweizer (or however you spell it) Group, but that was in the Seventies, I guess. gb ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:50:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Dillon Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? In-Reply-To: <924528.96029.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bryan Garner's Dictionary of Modern American Usage (although I think the title may have changed in the most recent edition) and David Foster Wallace's review of the dictionary which appears in toto in Consider the Lobster On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Andy Gricevich wrote: > Hello, all-- > > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, > comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always came > pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and > never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher > myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, > well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." > > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is > reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology > therein). > > cheers, > > Andy > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:07:01 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: John Herbert Cunningham Subject: Re: Tchicai In-Reply-To: <6D644DFF-3B8E-47C5-B3EF-1C91D98D8812@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, I believe that the group's name was something like Ars Nova Danica. John Herbert Cunningham -----Original Message----- From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of George Bowering Sent: March-24-09 6:13 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Tchicai On Mar 18, 2009, at 9:06 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > . I can't remember the name of the group > under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. There was the John Tchicai--Irene Schweizer (or however you spell it) Group, but that was in the Seventies, I guess. gb ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:28:13 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Corey Frost Subject: April 3rd: Poems for the Millennium at the CUNY Graduate Center In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed April 3rd JEROME ROTHENBERG and JEFFREY ROBINSON, with MARY ANN CAWS, MAUREEN =20 McLANE, and RICHARD SIEBURTH The CUNY Graduatte Center Poetics Group is very excited to announce =20 that the editors of Poems for the Millennium Volume Three: The =20 University of California Book of Romantic & Postromantic Poetry will =20 be with us to read from and discuss their new anthology. Like its two =20= twentieth-century predecessors, Poems for the Millennium, volumes 1 =20 and 2, this gathering sets forth a globally decentered approach to =20 the poetry of the preceding century from a radically experimental and =20= visionary perspective. The range of volume three and its skewing of =20 the traditional canon illuminate the process by which romantics and =20 post-romantics challenged nineteenth-century orthodoxies and =20 propelled poetry to the experiments of a later modernism and avant-=20 gardism. Joining Jerome Rothenberg and Jeffrey C. Robinson in the =20 open discussion that follows the reading are three distinguished =20 scholars and translators, Mary Ann Caws, Maureen McLane, and Richard =20 Sieburth. =93Rothenberg and Robinson have dedicated this project to an =20= intensification and expansion of the vital and vivacious contexts of =20 the ongoing project of human thought. They present us not with the =20 fixity of a canon but with the unfixity of our world.=94 =97 Lyn = Hejinian Friday, April 3, 2:00 pm, in Room 9207. CUNY Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, New York.= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 23:31:46 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kristin Dykstra Subject: Zurita/Borzutzky in Chicago April 3 / Guild Complex In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Special Reading with Ra=FAl Zurita and Daniel Borzutzky Start: Friday, April 3, 2009 - 7:00pm Sponsored by the Guild Complex http://www.guildcomplex.org/ Time: Doors open at 7:00PM, Reading begins at 7:30PM. Cost: Free admission, all ages. Location: Instituto Cervantes, 31 West Ohio Street, Chicago Ra=FAl Zurita was born in Santiago, Chile in 1951. He started out =20 studying mathematics before turning to poetry. His early work is a =20 ferocious response to Augusto Pinochet's 1973 military coup. Like many =20 other Chileans, Zurita was arrested and tortured. When he was =20 released, he helped to form a radical artistic group CADA, and he =20 became renowned for his provocative and intensely physical public =20 performances. In the early 80=92s, Zurita famously sky-wrote passages from his poem, =20 The New Life, over Manhattan and later (still during the reign of =20 Pinochet) he bulldozed the phrase Ni Pena Ni Miedo (Without Pain Or =20 Fear) into the Atacama Desert, where it can still be seen because =20 children in the neighboring town bring shovels into the desert and =20 turn over the sand in the letters. For fifteen years, Zurita worked on =20 a trilogy which is considered one of the signal poetic achievements in =20 Latin American poetry: Purgatory appeared in 1979, Ante-paradise in =20 1982, and The New Life in 1993. Ra=FAl Zurita is one of the most renowned contemporary Latin American =20 poets, and he is the recipient of numerous awards, including a =20 Guggenheim Fellowship and the National Poetry Prize of Chile. =20 Translations of Purgatory and Anteparadise were published in the =20 United States in the 80=92s. Three new books, INRI, translated by William Rowe, Song of the =20 Disappeared Love, translated by Daniel Borzutzky, and Purgatory, =20 translated by Anna Deeny, are forthcoming from, respectively, Merick =20 Press, Action Books, and The University of California Press. His books =20 of poems include, among others: El Sermon de la Montana; Areas Verdes; =20 Purgatorio; Anteparadiso; El Paraiso Esta Vacio =96 Canto a Su Amor, =20 Desaparecido, El Amor de Chile, La Vida Nueva, In Memoriam. --=20 Dr. Kristin Dykstra www.ilstu.edu/~kadykst www.litline.org/Mandorla Associate Professor Department of English Illinois State University Campus Box 4240 Normal, IL 61790-4240 -------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Illinois State University Webmail. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:18:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? In-Reply-To: <924528.96029.qm@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *The Elements of Style*. Ciao, Murat On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Andy Gricevich wrote: > Hello, all-- > > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, > comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always came > pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and > never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher > myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, > well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." > > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is > reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology > therein). > > cheers, > > Andy > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 05:35:29 +0000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jesse Glass Subject: Two Novellas: Marble Snows & the Study by Michael Heller available from Ahadada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Direct from our website www. ahadadabooks.com or via SPD. Don Wellman's Prolog Pages and Eileen Tabios' Nota Bene Eiswein--both fine collections of poetry--are also available through the same venues. The treasures keep coming. Please check out what we're doing at Ahadada Books! Ekleksographia II--the Amy King Issue--is near completion. Jen Karmin, Vivian Shipley and T.A. Noonan are on on our list of future curators. Without haste but without rest, Jess ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 01:58:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Boog City presents Atticus/Finch and Julian T. Brolaski (music) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward ------------------ Boog City presents d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press Atticus/Finch Chapbooks (Seattle) this Tues., March 31, 6:00 p.m. sharp, free ACA Galleries 529 W. 20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by Atticus/Finch editor Michael Cross Featuring readings from Thom Donovan Judith Goldman David Larsen Kyle Schlesinger with music from Julian T. Brolaski There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum ------ **Atticus/Finch Chapbooks http://www.atticusfinch.org/ Atticus/Finch balks emphatically at faux notions of newness. Rather, =20 they present to you beautiful and affordable editions in the splendid =20= aura of their fresh new-ity. Help them help you rabidly consume the =20 future of poetry as it unfolds before your very eyes. They greatly =20 appreciate your patronage. *Performer Bios* **Julian T. Brolaski http://www.atticusfinch.org/brolaski.htm Julian T. Brolaski is the author of Letters to Hank Williams (True =20 West Press), The Daily Usonian (Atticus/Finch), Madame Bovary's Diary =20= (Cy Press), and the now-defunct blog "Swimming for Dummies." S/he is a =20= Ph.D. student in the English department, where zie is writing hir =20 dissertation on rhyme and repetition. **Thom Donovan http://whof.blogspot.com/ Thom Donovan is an ongoing participant in the Nonsite Collective, =20 coedits ON Contemporary Practice, the first issue of which can be =20 purchased now at SPD, edits Wild Horses of Fire weblog, and curates =20 PEACE events series. His poems and critical writings have been =20 published variously, including his Atticus/Finch collaboration with =20 Kyle Schlesinger, Mantle. **Judith Goldman http://www.obooks.com/books/death_star.htm Judith Goldman is the author of two books of poetry, Vocoder (Roof) =20 and DeathStar/Rico-chet (O Books), and the co-editor, with Leslie =20 Scalapino, of War and Peace, an annual anthology of experimental =20 writing against the war. Her chapbook The Dispossessions is =20 forthcoming from Atticus/Finch. **David Larsen http://www.spdbooks.org/Products/11908/the-thorn.aspx Newly relocated from San Francisco's Bay Area, David Larsen is =20 pursuing a career in postgraduate studies. His first book of poetry is =20= The Thorn (Faux Press), and will soon be joined by his translation of =20= Names of the Lion by Abu Abd Allah ibn Khalawayh (Atticus/Finch). =46rom = =20 2005-2007 he was co-curator of the New Yipes reading/video series at =20 Oakland's 21 Grand. **Kyle Schlesinger http://www.kyleschlesinger.com Kyle Schlesinger=92s books include The Pink, Hello Helicopter, and, with = =20 Caroline Koebel, Schablone Berlin. With Thom Donovan and Michael =20 Cross, he edits ON, a poetics journal that focuses on contemporaries. =20= He is the co-author, with Thom Donovan, of Mantle (Atticus/Finch). ---- Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues Next event: Tues. April 28 Bird Dog magazine (Seattle) http://www.birddogmagazine.com/ -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664)= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:33:38 GMT Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "holsapple1@juno.com" Subject: English Grammar Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 C. L. Baker's English Syntax is a thorough, professional text. And Rodn= ey Huddleston has several good books on English grammar written for diff= erent levels of expertise. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:56:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "J. Michael Mollohan" Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strunk and White, _The Elements of Style_ is kinda like, you know, my Bible. Check with those teaching Freshman English. They usually have their own grammar texts. I recall one called _Words and Ideas_ from many years ago. HTH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Gricevich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:27 PM Subject: Recommendations for grammar books? > Hello, all-- > > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, > comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always > came pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, > and never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a > refresher myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for > well-written, well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." > > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is > reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology > therein). > > cheers, > > Andy > > > > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:06:25 -0700 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: Das Kapital to be Transformed into Chinese Musical In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm suprised B Brecht never produced a Marx Musical. Or Mel Brooks.=20 --- On Tue, 3/24/09, mIEKAL aND wrote: From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Das Kapital to be Transformed into Chinese Musical To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, March 24, 2009, 1:25 PM (the transformation from original text to japanese manga to chinese opera reminds me of all the babelfish translations we do) http://www.metamute.org/en/das_kapital_to_be_transformed_into_chinese_music= al Perhaps a bit of fancy footwork and a catchy show tune is the key to introducing a new generation to Karl Marx=E2=80=99s Das Kapital. At least that=E2=80=99s what He Nian, director of the upcoming musical, is anticipat= ing for the Shanghai theatregoers. The play which is on schedule to open next year, is meant to serve as a kind of =E2=80=98edutainment=E2=80=99 pro= viding the audience with amusement but also an intellectually sound interpretation of Marx=E2=80=99s work. Shanghaiist and The Guardian report more extensively: http://shanghaiist.com/2009/03/17/can_marxist_masterpiece_hit_the_chi.php Screw Shakespeare and forget that Chinese opera business - right now, preparations are underway to bring a sing-song version of Karl Marx's Das Kapital to the Shanghai theater. This particular rendition of Marx's treatise against capitalism is borrowed from "a best-selling Japanese manga adaptation". We're not sure if anime and Marxism go hand-in-hand, but He Nian, Das Kapital's director has ambitious hopes for the play, according to Danwei: He Nian says he will combine elements from animation, Broadway musicals, and Las Vegas stage shows to bring Marx's economic theories to life as a trendy, interesting, and educational play... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:17:37 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Sharon Mesmer/David Borchart Subject: 2009 National Queer Arts Festival In-Reply-To: <6D644DFF-3B8E-47C5-B3EF-1C91D98D8812@sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed As part of the 2009 National Queer Arts Festival: Army of Lovers presents "Formerly Known As: A Fesitival of Art, Video, Writing and Performance by Male Sex Workers" June 3 + 4th, 2009 at 7pm Center for Sex and Culture 1519 Mission Street (btwn 11th and S. Van Ness) San Francisco, CA. $10-20, no one turned away from lack of funds ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:05:14 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent posts on NOMADICS blog Comments: To: "Poetryetc: poetry and poetics" Comments: cc: British-Irish List MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please check out these recent posts on NOMADICS: = http://pierrejoris.com/blog Habib Tengour on =93Maghrebi Surrealism=94 Habib Tengour @ U Albany Mearsheimer on Charles Freeman =91Shooting and crying=92 =97 The Gaza Massacres Music At The Stone PETR KOTIK IN ALBANY Simon Pettet=92s Hearth Abdelkebir Khatibi (1939-2009) Enjoy! Comment! Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Play what you don't know" -- Sun Ra =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202-1310 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com http://pierrejoris.com/blog/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: <011001c9acc8$2b4923a0$81db6ae0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable _ note: the word "pataphysics" and its being studied can be found in the Bea= tles' song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."-- =20 The first "official" introduction of 'Pataphysics to the North American audience/readers may (or not) be seen as Evergreen Review Issue 13=2C May/June 1960=2C with a spiral and the words "What is 'Pataphysics" suspended in the =93equivalent=94 of a foto dipped in green (=93evergreen=94) of Jarry aboard one of his personal manias=2C = his beloved bicycle=2C heading down the street=2C away from the camera=2C into that Futurity which the present is the =93bec= oming memory=94 of.=20 Following an Intro by Roger Shattuck=2C there's an excellent selections of = works from Alphonse Allais=2C Leon-Paul Fargue=2C Torma=2C Rene Clair=2C Rene Dum= al and Felix Feneon (a friend of Jarry's) to the then contemporary "Satraps" of the Fre= nch College du 'Pataphysique" such as Vian=2C Butor=2C Queneau=2C Ionesco=2C.=20 A year later=2C reflecting on this event and its effects in North America= =2C Asger Jorn=2C the Danish artist=2C ground breaking investigator of Scandinavian a= rts and for some years Situationist=2C penned a piece for =93Internationale Situati= onniste=94 No. 6=2C August 1961 called =94Pataphysics=97A Religion in the Making.=94 http://infopool.org.uk/6104.html =20 Jorn writes: It is only recently that the religious content of Pataphysics has become apparent. Prior to this development=2C Jarry's invention remained largely unknown beyond the small = circle who published the esoteric Cahiers du College de Pataphysique. But all this changed when a special Pataphysical number of the Evergreen Review was published in New York. Although the Americans have now claimed the honour of presenting Pataphysics to the world=2C they didn't dare mention the word religion in their journal. Nevertheless=2C the enormous success Pataphysics enjoyed last year among th= e New World intelligentsia has inaugurated an epoch in which the essentially religious nature of this phenomena will be carefully analysed =20 Recently re-reading some of Jarry=92s essays and fictions re =91Pataphyisics=2C two things really struck me.=20 One is that Jarry=92s =91Pataphysical compilations=2C Almanachs=2C woodcuts= =2C all owe a great deal to the medieval period=2C and specifically to the spirit o= f Rabelais and Villon. In Rabelais=2C there is the mocking of both science an= d religion which go on unabated=2C as well as the production of a ceaselessly teeming=2C transmuting and truly =93exceptional=94 cosmos=2C in which the s= izes and shapes of everything are subject to immense and swift adjustments to indeed =93Situations.=94 Rabelais spoofs and distorts and disgorges the scientific= and religious languages of his time=2C a crazy quilt =93polygut=94 of half dige= sted Latin and the wildly free and raucous French of the times=2C itself at the thresh= olds of the strangling codifications soon eno9ugh to appear. =20 And in Rabelais=2C as in Jarry=97let us not forget the =93exceptional=94 role that Flatulence plays!! The =93inflation =93 of language is measured along side its accompaniment=2C that inflating of the human bowels= which results in the production of an inflation with finds its mode of expression via an orifice of the human anatomy which seeks to equal that of the mouth in volume and expressiveness. There are also=2C as in Villon=2C the predilection for the machines and images of executions= =2C with Jarry sharing Villon=92s words almost exactly apropos hanging=2C and adding= himself the modern Guillotine to the scenes of the functions of separating the body from the head from which it itself is seen as =93hanging from=94 previous t= o their union being rent asunder. There is also the example of Flaubert=92s Bouvard et Pecuchet=2C which presents the adven= tures of two copy-clerks who=2C unlike Bartleby the Scrivener=2C are able due to an inheritance to leave their desk and purchase an immense country estate=2C w= hich wins them no welcome from the local inhabitants. These two former copiers = set about exploring the branches of knowledge which compose the arts and sciences=2C and in alm= ost every case run aground on the beaches of their own persistent ignorance. =20 On their way to this pessimistic view of the acquisition and accumulation of knowledge=2C t= he duo decide to turn their heads and hands instead to compiling a =93Dictionary o= f Received Ideas=2C=94 collecting al the stupid quotes manifesting the =93unexceptional=94: (in Jarry=92s terms) presented as something =93excepti= onal=2C=94 which provide insights in to the questions of all facets of life These =93receiv= ed ideas=2C=94 unquestioned and in a sense almost invisible until compiled as an actual =93set=94 within genres = and categories of thought and language=2C=20 create a form of =93anti-Encyclopedia=2C =93 in which the Encyclopedic aspirations of the 18th century are turned on their heads as =93fauxk-wisdom=2C=94 of the kind massively generated by the new industrialized media of the =93Age of Progress.=94=20 A few decades earlier=2C Baudelaire had written of his hope to produce lines which would = become clich=E9s. The =93true test=94 of the poet=92s work would be to vanish into this sea of =93received ideas=2C=94 which iron= ically is the very environment that would reject the poet=92s =93exceptional=94 langu= age=2C or=2C perhaps=2C this vast sea might instead engulf the poem in a vast moist embrace in which it would also vanish=2C a= nd become =93unrecognized=94 because =93misunderstood=94 as the only way by which it might attain a paradoxical= =93recognition=94 by becoming =93unrecognizable=94 due to misunderstandings=2C and so=97 =20 =93Taken for something else=2C=94 continue a free and camouflaged existence=2C unnoticed=2C unread=2C unseen=2C unknown=2C by attaching itsel= f to the =93obvious=2C=94 and so become =93hidden in plain sight.=94=20 =20 That is=2C to be read=2C seen and known as the =93obvious=2C=94 and so =93overlooked=2C=94 because of course=2C things in order to be Important=2C= have to be far more complex than =93That.=94 =20 This is the strategy=2C after all=2C of the Viceroy butterfly=2C which so resembles a Monarch=2C that no enemy will attack it=3B because the= Monarch possesses a poison that kills those who try to eat it=2C and so acts as a = =93deterrence=94 that the Viceroy copies in terms solely of =93appearance.=94 =20 =20 =93Looks can be deceiving=2C=94 after all=2C and so =93one person=92s meat is another=92s poison=2C=94 becomes a meat that all comers take to be = a poison when it is actually a meat mimicking the costuming of the poisonous one. =20 The equivalence of the poisonous and the non-poisonous both appearing as the poisonous=2C becomes that =91Pataphysical =93exception=2C= =94 that pebble in the shoe that grinds and grinds away=2C destroying the edifice of the Ve= ry Important Person whose foot is continually stepping on it=2C and so becomes= a form of =93resistance=94 which understands full well that clich=E9d phrase= =2C =93the Bigger they are=2C the Harder they Fall.=94 =20 Jarry=92s Pere Ubu and Dr Faustroll and the vision of =91Pataphysics were born from the cu= nning of schoolboys satirizing a Physics teacher at their lycee=2C and turning th= ese satires and their objects into Theater and the discovery that =93as Metaphysic is t= o Physics=2C so =91Pataphysics is to Metaphysics.=94 Ubu and =91Pataphysics are born out of a satirizing=2C inverting=2C and subverting of the Institutionalized forms and formulae of =93knowledge=94 which a citizen= bent on a =93career=94 is forced to undergo. Where the French College du =91Pataphy= sique (revived=2C after a quarter century of dormancy=2C in 2000) and its recentl= y formed English rough equivalent=2C equivalency being at the =93heart of the matter= =2C=94 differ from the North American =93Pataphysics=2C=94 is=2C as Jorn foresees= =2C its being turned back into an Institutionalized form and formulae which take on the r= ites and trappings of a new form of religion.=20 One might then observe that the ideas and characters born of the immediate =93wreck-creations=94=20 and absurd comedies of the classroom=2C the satires of the =93Professor=2C=94 and of the entire sets of Jargons=2C discourses=2C that have been erected to produce both an elite and a =93common=94 mass=94 of students of the =93s= ame mind=2C=94 of the same mind=2C that is=2C regarding the Seriousness of their Placements and Advancements within the Structures of Society=92s various Institutions=3B o= ne might observe in this that the originary =93scene=94 of Ubu in opposition to all = of these=2C is turned inside out and becomes again the very site of the produc= tion of a conformity.=20 =20 This is the situation which Jorn presents: =20 =93If Pataphysics had been taught anonymously=2C and avoided criticism=2C it might have slipped unnoticed into the world. Had this had happened=2C the apparently insoluble problem of Pataphysical authority - th= e consecration of the inconsecratable - would not have occurred. =93 =20 That is=2C if =91Pataphysics had indeed flown into the world as the Viceroy=2C camouflaged and whose recognition was a form of misreading= =2C misunderstanding and hence =93unrecognizablity=2C=94 =91Pataphysics would h= ave eluded the confrontation with the Authorities of the Institutional =93Authorizatio= ns=2C=94 who strip away an unrecognized anonymity=2C a camouflaged misreading misunderstood and too obvious to notice=2C and instead set up in their abse= nces the presence of their own Authorships. =20 This situation which Jorn presents is somewhat similar to another one being written of at roughly the same time=97the situation of th= e =93Garden Dwarfs=94 as Hans Richter calls them in his Dada: Art and Anti A= rt. The =93Garden dwarfs=94 are the neo-Dadas=2C who in a sense obey the letter but not the spirit of the Law= =2C a Law which did not exist until they had retrospectively =93recognized=94 its exi= stence and so initiated a trend that in recent years has become the falsification = of Dada in the US textbooks and Institutions with=20 their ensuing cult of Tzara=2C the least interesting and least Dada of them all=2C who turned promotion of a borrowed name and movement into a one= man show starring himself=2C and continued on like an animated corpse long afte= r the Dadas had all left=2C finding himself finally cornered in the company of the emerging Surrealists=97co-founding with Andr= e Breton the journal =93Literature=2C=94 the very anti-thesis of the Hugo Bal= l-named =93Dada=94-- with whom he participated in and celebrated Dada=92s =93funer= al. =20 For Richter=2C Huelsenbeck and other Dadas=2C the accomplishment of Tzara is to eradicate any of the =93Revolutionary=94 and =93street=94 el= ements in Dada=2C and instead produce a series of literary =93manifestos=94 which lea= d straight to the heart of the matter for him: =93Literature.=94 =20 (As Henry Miller put it in the =93Fourteenth Ward=94 section in Black Spring: =93What is not in the open street is false=2C derived that is to say=2C literature.=94) =20 This retrospective revisioning=2C reformulating and re-fashioning of Dada=97and of Neo-Dada and the Garden Dwarfs - in order to= have it conform better to the current situation and narrative of the poet/artist= in the US=2C Jorn recognizes also as a crisis within =91Pataphysics: =20 The great merit of pataphysics is to have confirmed that there is no metaphysical justificatio= n for forcing everybody to believe in the same absurdity=2C possibilities for= the absurd and in art are legion. The only logical deduction that can be made f= rom this principle is the anarchist thesis: to each his own absurdities. The negation of this principle is expressed in the legal power of the state=2C = which forces all citizens to submit to an identical set of political absurdities.= =20 It must by now be apparent that once a Pataphysical authority is accepted=2C it become= s a demagogic weapon against the Pataphysical spirit The game is the Pataphysical overture to the world. The realisation of such games is the creation of situations. A crisis therefore exists=2C caused by the crucial problem whic= h each Pataphysical adept must resolve: s/he must apply the situlogic method and attack the conditions of the reigning society=2C or else simply refuse to d= o anything whatsoever about the situation. It is in the latter resolution to = this problem that Pataphysics becomes the religion best adapted to life in the society of the spectacle: a religion of passivity and pure absence =20 This =93religion of passivity=94 adapted to the life of the society of the spect= acle may be found today in the latest =93hot topics=94 of the ongoing entropy of an Institutionalized setting=2C which for Melville=92s Bartleby was to be foun= d on Wall Street=2C where the Scrivener states his =93I would prefer not to=94 c= ontinue copying=2C and eventually finds himself in the Tombs=2C perversely observed= and studied by his former employer=2C a lawyer in the service of the Market. T= he entropy of a =93case=94 as seemingly =93passive=94 as Bartleby's is found in the =93conceptual works=94 which de= dicate themselves to =93copying=2C data filing=2C and boredom-=2C=94 the latter being regarded by artists from Baudelaire to the = Dadas to Dubuffet and beyond as the =93enemy of art.=94 Or =93the enemy of existence= .=94=20 =20 The religious aspect of boredom Baudelaire called =93Acedie=2C la maladie des moines.=94 Acedia=97the malady of monks. =20 And monks=2C to be sure=2C of some denominations=2C were known to be =93copyists=2C=94 some of whom=2C anonymously=2C created some among the = most beautiful Visual Poetry and Book Art known in the West. =20 Perhaps the situation of today=92s poets who are dependent on machines and others=92 materials to copy or =93flarf=2C=94or =93pataphysic=94 or =93= Ouliper=94 or =93Vizpoize=94 or =93avant=94are spurred on by the lashes of the command to =93publish or perish.=94 In Enrique Villa-Matas=92 Bartleby and Company=2C one encounters the opposite of this = need and desire to =93appear in print=2C=94 no matter what it is or in what form. T= his suggests the resurrection of the last minute plagiarized paper as a =93radical form of discourse=94 to be explore= d in terms ethical=2C aesthetical and pros ethical. Plagiarizing=2C copying=2C f= iling=2C scanning the unbelievable torrents of spam-- all of it a celebration of one= =92s own =93original=94 unoriginality in =93facing this monster=2C=94 which is= =97as Baudelaire put it=2C the horror of the =91=94gouffre=2C=94 that immense chasm of bore= dom=2C dullness and nothingness into which the author of today may tumble=2C never to be seen or heard from again=2C r= eturned to the anonymity of being =93not published =93or =93out of print.=94 =20 This is yet another =93crisis=94 facing the author expected to publish=2C to =93make a name for her/himself and their Institution=2C=94 or= Group=2C Movement=2C Brand Name etc=97 =20 To at once announce one=92s unoriginality=2C yet to do so in a manner originally unoriginal=2C from some as yet unplundered source=2C insp= ired by some previously hopelessly obscure or obscene and overlooked author=2C and = so to put a stamp on one=92s productions which is said to a once proclaim the aut= hor and to be arguing against the author. =20 This desperate need to produce writing=2C even if it is borrowed=2C stolen=2C downloaded=2C copied by hand=2C purchased on line or = from the super market of literary products and accessories=2C where the laughter of Il Professore Vidiamodopo may be h= eard echoing down the aisles of prominently visible poets whose shining presence= s dim even the gaudiest of packaging=92s=97 =20 This desperate need to produce=97and yet at the same with the least amount of intellectual labor=97that being replaced by the physical la= bor of the copying filing and being originally unoriginal=97all of it the opposite= of the Writing of the No=2C of Bartleby=92s =93I prefer not to=2C=94 or the un= written non writing camouflaged inside the misread and misunderstood=97 =20 The terrible fear driving the horses to go =93faster=2C faster=2C faster=94 as Walt Whitman saw America dashing to insanity=97 =20 This terrible fear of the non-existence=2C le Neant=2C le Gouffre=97 Can be summed up in a sign found in the battered offices for various servi= ces of the Health and Welfare departments=2C as well as those were free legal counsel or fina= ncial advice may be given: =20 This sign sums it up:=20 =93If it is not in writing=2C it never happened.=94 =20 Perhaps =91Pataphysics may propose as an exception the happening of something which is unwritten=2C and so=2C logically=2C inferred to be=2C= to remain=2C unwritten=97and hence never having happened=2C--and yet=2C it has happened-= - A happening beyond the bounds of the written=2C in a zone one aspect of which Whitman called =93the real war will never get into the book= s.=94 =20 In that case=2C then=2C one may understand a =91Pataphysical writing outside of books=2C pages=2C of being written down=97existing as bo= th happening and writing simultaneously=2C and al the while remaining =93burie= d=2C=94 hidden from the view of those writings which do get into books. =20 Existing as an unseen=2C unrecognized=2C unpublished as it were=2C Viceroy=2C hidden within the gaudy show of the poisonous Monarch=2C a harml= ess being concealed inside a killer=2C an inverse Trojan Horse=2C an exception = to the writing that alone produces what happens=2C because=2C by not writing=2C by= not copying=2C but simply =93resembling in appearance=94 a form of writing know= n as the Monarch=2C it is happening unread=2C unrecognized=2C unwritten=2C and =91Pa= taphysically existing=97 =20 And without which there could not be=2C by its unrecognition=2C its being anonymous=2C unknown=2C its being so obvious it is overlooked=97t= here could not be that author=2C that authority=2C that authorization=2C in whose=20 recognition by its =93standing out against a background=2C=94 would be seen that presence which is called =93writing.=94 An =93evidence of something that happened.=94 =20 Even if what happened might be completely fictitious=2C or an outright lie-- > Date: Tue=2C 24 Mar 2009 16:33:22 -0500 > From: johncunningham366@GMAIL.COM > Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Thanks for that enigmatic response=2C Catherine. Care to be a little more > verbose? > John Herbert Cunningham >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn=2C UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Catherine Daly > Sent: March-24-09 11:45 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics >=20 > but it is not... >=20 > On Tue=2C Mar 24=2C 2009 at 7:00 AM=2C John Herbert Cunningham > wrote: > > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science=2C Christ= ian > Bok > > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon m= y > own > > poetic career (in particular=2C my 'pataphysical encyclopedia=2C > > Crystallography)." To my knowledge=2C this is the only North American b= ook > > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical > work. > > Any comments? > > > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > All best=2C > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail=AE= . http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=3DTXT_MS= GTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:44:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: OT: 2009 Mets Tix for Sale Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v924) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (apologies for the non-Boog email) Hi all, It's my 12th consecutive season with a Mets Sunday plan (which now =20 comes with some weekdays), the first one at what they're still calling =20= Citi Field, and I thought I'd see if any of you might be interested in =20= buying tickets (and joining the lineup of what would make a pretty =20 swell anthology, with past buyers of my Mets tix including Jim Behrle, =20= Rachel Levitsky, Jean-Paul Pecqueur, Nathaniel Siegel, and Angela =20 Veronica Wong). I still have two seats, and in the new ballpark they are in the =20 Promenade Reserved Infield, sec. 512, which is behind home plate two =20 sections up the first-base line. Click the below link and when there =20 click section 512 for a view from the seats: http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/nym/ticketing/seating_pricing.jsp If you're interested in buying any tickets (or know someone who is) =20 you (or they) can email me here: editor@boogcity.com (Note that the Mets charge different prices depending upon the =20 opponents and the date, so you'll see, for example, that the Padres=92 =20= game, the third regular season game at Citi Field, costs more than the =20= other games. Also, I've included a service charge of $2 per game, =20 prorated from what the Mets charge me for the 15-game package.) Hope this finds you well (and Lets Go Mets!) as ever, David -------- **Thurs. April 16, 7:10 p.m.-$62 San Diego Padres (fyi, this is third reg. season Mets game in new park) **Sun. April 26, 1:10 p.m.-$42 Washington Nationals **Sun. May 31, 1:10 p.m.-$52 Florida Marlins Mr. Met Dash The Mr. Met Dash allows children 12 and under to run the bases at Citi Field after the game, weather permitting. **Wed. July 29, 7:10 p.m.-$52 Colorado Rockies **Wed. Aug. 19, 7:10 p.m.-$52 Atlanta Braves **Sun. Sept. 20, 1:10 p.m.-$52 Washington Nationals (fyi, this is 2nd day of Rosh Hashanah) --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W. 28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://welcometoboogcity.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664)= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Maria Damon Subject: Mark Nowak Book Events MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Nowak: April Events for -Coal Mountain Elementary- Mark Nowak will be in Western Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Maryland, and Iowa for unique events surrounding the publication of his new book, -Coal Mountain Elementary- (Coffee House Press, 2009). Venues include the AFL-CIO’s National Labor College in Silver Spring, Maryland and the John L. Lewis Museum of Mining and Labor in Lucas, Iowa, as well as indie bookstores (Red Emma’s in Baltimore, Prairie Lights in Iowa City) and staged productions of the book at the Studio Theater (University of Pittsburgh) and the Boilerhouse Theater (Davis & Elkins College, just a few miles from the Sago mine in West Virginia). For complete details, see the “Upcoming Events” section of Nowak’s new blog, http://coalmountain.wordpress.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:01:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michelle Taransky Subject: Kelly Writers House TV Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Poetics List: The Kelly Writers House is excited to host a reading by Factory School po= ets FRANK SHERLOCK and CAROL MIRAKOVE on Thursday, 4/2 at 6:30 PM EST.=20=20 If you're outside the Philadelphia area, you can watch this, and many Kel= ly Writers House programs live online via KWH-TV:=20 http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/multimedia/tv/ Programs are archived and can be viewed on-demand via KWH-TV reruns:=20 http://writing.upenn.edu/wh/multimedia/tv/reruns _______________________________________________________ the Kelly Writers House presents a poetry reading by FRANK SHERLOCK CAROL MIRAKOVE Thursday, 4/2 at 6:30 PM in the Arts Cafe Kelly Writers House | 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia PA 19104 http://writing.upenn.edu/~wh/ no registration required - free & open to the public=20 FRANK SHERLOCK is the author of "Over Here" (Factory School 2009) and the= co-author of "Ready-To-Eat Individual" (Lavender Ink 2008), a collaborati= ve work with the Poet Laureate of Dumaine Street, Brett Evans. A duet with CAConrad entitled "The City Real & Imagined: Philadelphia Poems" is forthcoming from Factory School in fall 2009. More on Frank Sherlock: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Sherlock.html http://www.madpoetssociety.com/blog/2008/01/23/talking-with-frank-sherloc= k/ CAROL MIRAKOVE is the author of "Mediated" (Factory School, 2006) and "Occupied" (Kelsey St. Press, 2004), which won the Frances Jaffer Book Award. She is featured on the Women in the Avant-Garde CD (Narrow House) = and on the track "temporary tattoos" by the DJ and producer bates45. Her poem= s and essays appear in journals including XCP: Cross-Cultural Poetics, Traffic, West Coast Line, The Capilano Review, Pom2, The Brooklyn Rail, Xconnect, and in the collection "Visible: A Femmethology." More on Carol Mirakove: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Segue-BPC.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:57:31 -0700 Reply-To: semanticsblack@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: sheila black Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? Comments: To: "J. Michael Mollohan" In-Reply-To: <0A5B314BC40C4E39962E26B4AB862E70@JANUS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Andy,=20 I have been teaching Comp I and Comp II for ten years at a Community Colleg= e and the following Handbooks have been great for Freshman whose High Schoo= l education did not seem to cover grammar with any kind of depth:=20 Little, Brown Handbook--H. Ramsey Fowler, Jane E. Aaron, and Janice Okoomia= n Simon an Schuster's Handbook for Writers edited by Lynn Quitman Troyka.=20 And for Poetics:=20 Twentieth Century American Poetics: Poets on the Art of Poetry edited by Da= na Gioia, David Mason, and Meg Schoerke=20 The Longman Dictionary of Poetic Terms=A0 edited by Jack Myers and Michael = Simms.=20 Troyka was my favorite, although, now that I have the important sections (for Freshman) of Little, Brown memorized (not literally, of cours= e), the Little, Brown handbook has been quite useful and easy to figure out.=20 Sheila Black .=20 =A0 =A0=20 =A0Sheila Black=20 --- On Wed, 3/25/09, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: From: J. Michael Mollohan Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 8:56 AM Strunk and White, _The Elements of Style_ is kinda like, you know, my Bible= . Check with those teaching Freshman English. They usually have their own gr= ammar texts. I recall one called _Words and Ideas_ from many years ago. HTH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Gricevich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:27 PM Subject: Recommendations for grammar books? > Hello, all-- >=20 > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always cam= e pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and n= ever solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher myself. D= oes anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." >=20 > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology therei= n). >=20 > cheers, >=20 > Andy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:03:01 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember liking Diana Hacker.=A0 She has several books, Rules for Writers= , A Writer's Reference.=A0 The latter one was very well organized. --- On Wed, 3/25/09, J. Michael Mollohan wrote: From: J. Michael Mollohan Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 6:56 AM Strunk and White, _The Elements of Style_ is kinda like, you know, my Bible= .. Check with those teaching Freshman English.=A0 They usually have their ow= n grammar texts.=A0 I recall one called _Words and Ideas_ from many years a= go. HTH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Gricevich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:27 PM Subject: Recommendations for grammar books? > Hello, all-- >=20 > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, compr= ehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it always came pre= tty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, and neve= r solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a refresher myself.= Does anyone out there have any recommendations for well-written, well-orga= nized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." >=20 > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former student--is r= eading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology therein= ). >=20 > cheers, >=20 > Andy >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:28:54 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [WDL] Our Ada Lovelace Day ends Mar 30th. (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:34:59 +0000 From: marc garrett Reply-To: WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK To: WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: [WDL] Our Ada Lovelace Day ends Mar 30th. Our Ada Lovelace Day ends Mar 30th. Just a reminder to those who missed Ada Lovelace Day and still wishes to be a part of the project to submit your contributions. There is still time... We have been receiving many entries in support of Ada Lovelace Day, which will be a valuable resource for all in the future. Original call out below... In support of Ada Lovelace Day we are inviting all women who work in media arts and net art to join the NetBehaviour email list for a week between 23rd and 30th March. http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour We would like to know about your work and that of other women who have inspired you in your own practice. So please come and squat the NetBehaviour list for a week (of course we hope you'll stick around for longer:) and share your inspirations with our friendly community of artists, academics, writers, code geeks, curators, independent thinkers, activists and net mutualists. Posts are welcome in any format and frequency. The following is offered as an example. ==================== MY NAME: Ruth Catlow URL: http://www.furtherfield.org/display_user.php?ID=14 INSPIRED BY: Ele Carpenter - http://www.elecarpenter.org.uk/ for tech inspired and facilitated participation with Open Source Embroidery, her curatorial project exploring artists practice that explores the relationship between programming for embroidery and computing. Auriea Harvey - for her part with Entropy8Zuper in early intimate networked performances http://entropy8zuper.org/wirefire and for Endless Forest, Tale of Tales's bucolic social screensaver http://tale-of-tales.com/TheEndlessForest Mary Flanagan - for her energetic explorations as academic, educator, artist and programmer at the intersection of games, art and feminism and exploring collaborative approaches to thinking about values in http://www.valuesatplay.org/ ============================== At the end of the week we will collate all of the posts in the thread and feature them on Furtherfield.org. See you on Netbehaviour : )) With all best wishes from Ruth and the Furtherfield team ========================== Ada Lovelace Day -bringing women in technology to the fore http://findingada.com/blog/2009/01/05/ada-lovelace-day/ sign a pledge to blog about inspirational women in tech on 24th March. NetBehaviour is the Furtherfield.org email discussion listJoin NetBehaviour for a week between 23rd and 30th March (of course we hope you will stick around: ) http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour ********** * To alter your subscription settings on this list, log on to Subscriber's Corner at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/writing-and-the-digital-life.html * To unsubscribe from the list, email listserv@jiscmail.ac.uk with a blank subject line and the following text in the body of the message: SIGNOFF WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 13:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Mathias Svalina Subject: yardmeter editions presents Farrah Field, Jon Pack & Mathias Svalina : Friday, April 3, 2009: 7:30pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Friends, So there=92s this new events series starting in the Gowanus neighborhood of Brooklyn & the first one is going to feature photographer Jon Pack, poet Farrah Field & me. Sorry if this cross posts with another announcement. I think you should come. I think you=92ll enjoy it. Yours, Mathias yardmeter editions presents: Farrah Field, Jon Pack & Mathias Svalina Friday, April 3, 2009: 7:30pm yardmeter studio 267 douglass st, brooklyn, ny Yardmeter Editions is an events series that brings together artists, writers, playwrights & other creative types in an informal setting in the Gowanaus neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY. For info & directions: http://yardmeter.blogspot.com/ Farrah Field's first collection of poems, Rising, won the 2007 Levis Prize & will be out this April by Four Way Books. Her poems have appeared in many publications including The Mississippi Review, Margie, The Massachusetts Review, Pool, Typo, Harp & Altar, 42Opus, La Petite Zine, Sojourn, & are forthcoming in Pebble Lake Review, Another Chicago Magazine, Fulcrum, & The Pinch. She lives in Brooklyn & blogs at http://www.adultish.blogspot.com. Jon Pack is a photographer of people, environments and people in their environments. His latest project involves taking photographs of former Olympic cities. See his work at http://www.jonpack.com. Mathias Svalina is, with Zachary Schomburg, a co-editor of Octopus Magazine & Books. He is the author of three chapbooks & four collaboratively written chapbooks, most recently The Viral Lease from Small Anchor Press & Play from Cupboard Pamphlets. His first book, Destruction Myth, is forthcoming from the CSU Poetry Center in October. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:33:02 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: aaron tieger Subject: Necco Face by Carr, Mynes, Tieger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Editions Louis Wain=A0is pleased to announce the availability of a new chap= book:=0A=A0=0ANecco Face by Michael Carr, Jess Mynes & Aaron Tieger=0ANecco Face gathers collaborati= ons,=0Aremixes, one-offs experiments, and other work by these three poets,= =0Awritten between 2003 and 2007.=0A$8=0A44 pages, saddle stapled=0A=0A=A0= =0AFor a sample from this work, and to purchase through Paypal, please visi= t the Editions Louis Wain site:=0A=A0=0Ahttp://editionslouiswain.com/books/= =0A Aaron Tieger on behalf of Editions Louis Wain=0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:00:27 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Patrick Lovelace Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How could something 'not' be 'pataphysical? even something that wasn't? PL On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:10 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot < davidbchirot@hotmail.com> wrote: > _ > > note: the word "pataphysics" and its being studied can be found in the > Beatles' song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."-- > > > > > > > > > > The first "official" introduction of > 'Pataphysics to the North American audience/readers may (or not) be seen = as > Evergreen Review Issue 13, May/June 1960, with a spiral and the words > "What is 'Pataphysics" suspended in the =93equivalent=94 of a foto dipped > in green (=93evergreen=94) of Jarry aboard one of his personal manias, = his > beloved bicycle, heading down the street, > away from the camera, into that Futurity which the present is the > =93becoming memory=94 of. > > > > Following an Intro by Roger Shattuck, there's an excellent selections of > works > from Alphonse Allais, Leon-Paul Fargue, Torma, Rene Clair, Rene Dumal and > Felix > Feneon (a friend of Jarry's) to the then contemporary "Satraps" of the > French > College du 'Pataphysique" such as Vian, Butor, Queneau, Ionesco,. > > > > A year later, reflecting on this event and its effects in North America, > Asger > Jorn, the Danish artist, ground breaking investigator of Scandinavian art= s > and > for some years Situationist, penned a piece for =93Internationale > Situationniste=94 > No. 6, August 1961 called =94Pataphysics=97A Religion in the Making.=94 > > http://infopool.org.uk/6104.html > > > > Jorn writes: > > It is only recently that > the religious content of Pataphysics has become apparent. Prior to this > development, Jarry's invention remained largely unknown beyond the small > circle > who published the esoteric Cahiers du College de Pataphysique. But all th= is > changed when a special Pataphysical number of the Evergreen Review was > published in New York. > > > > Although > the Americans have now claimed the honour of presenting Pataphysics to th= e > world, they didn't dare mention the word religion in their journal. > Nevertheless, the enormous success Pataphysics enjoyed last year among th= e > New World intelligentsia has inaugurated an epoch in > which the essentially religious nature of this phenomena will be carefull= y > analysed > > > > Recently re-reading some of Jarry=92s essays and fictions re > =91Pataphyisics, two things really struck me. > One is that Jarry=92s =91Pataphysical compilations, Almanachs, woodcuts, = all > owe a great deal to the medieval period, and specifically to the spirit o= f > Rabelais and Villon. In Rabelais, there is the mocking of both science an= d > religion which go on unabated, as well as the production of a ceaselessly > teeming, transmuting and truly =93exceptional=94 cosmos, in which the siz= es and > shapes of everything are subject to immense and swift adjustments to inde= ed > =93Situations.=94 Rabelais spoofs and distorts and disgorges the scientif= ic and > religious languages of his time, a crazy quilt =93polygut=94 of half dige= sted > Latin > and the wildly free and raucous French of the times, itself at the > thresholds > of the strangling codifications soon eno9ugh to appear. > > And in Rabelais, > as in Jarry=97let us not forget the =93exceptional=94 role that Flatulenc= e > plays!! The =93inflation =93 of language is > measured along side its accompaniment, that inflating of the human bowels > which > results in the production of an inflation with finds its mode of expressi= on > via an orifice of the human anatomy > which seeks to equal that of the mouth in volume and expressiveness. > > There are also, > as in Villon, the predilection for the machines and images of executions, > with > Jarry sharing Villon=92s words almost exactly apropos hanging, and adding > himself > the modern Guillotine to the scenes of the functions of separating the bo= dy > from the head from which it itself is seen as =93hanging from=94 previous= to > their > union being rent asunder. > > There is also > the example of Flaubert=92s Bouvard et Pecuchet, which presents the > adventures of > two copy-clerks who, unlike Bartleby the Scrivener, are able due to an > inheritance to leave their desk and purchase an immense country estate, > which > wins them no welcome from the local inhabitants. These two former copier= s > set about exploring > the branches of knowledge which compose the arts and sciences, and in > almost > every case run aground on the beaches of their own persistent ignorance. > > On their way to > this pessimistic view of the acquisition and accumulation of knowledge, t= he > duo > decide to turn their heads and hands instead to compiling a =93Dictionary= of > Received Ideas,=94 collecting al the stupid quotes manifesting the > =93unexceptional=94: (in Jarry=92s terms) presented as something =93excep= tional,=94 > which > provide insights in to the questions of all facets of life These =93rece= ived > ideas,=94 unquestioned and in a > sense almost invisible until compiled as an actual =93set=94 within genre= s and > categories of thought and language, > create a form of =93anti-Encyclopedia, =93 in which the Encyclopedic > aspirations of the 18th century are turned on their heads as > =93fauxk-wisdom,=94 of the kind massively > generated by the new industrialized media of the =93Age of Progress.=94 > > A few decades > earlier, Baudelaire had written of his hope to produce lines which would > become > clich=E9s. The =93true test=94 of the poet=92s > work would be to vanish into this sea of =93received ideas,=94 which iron= ically > is > the very environment that would reject the poet=92s =93exceptional=94 lan= guage, > or, > perhaps, this vast sea might instead > engulf the poem in a vast moist embrace in which it would also vanish, a= nd > become =93unrecognized=94 because > =93misunderstood=94 as the only way by which it might attain a paradoxic= al > =93recognition=94 by becoming > =93unrecognizable=94 due to misunderstandings, and so=97 > > > > =93Taken for something else,=94 continue a free and camouflaged > existence, unnoticed, unread, unseen, unknown, by attaching itself to the > =93obvious,=94 and so become =93hidden in plain sight.=94 > > > > That is, to be read, seen and known as the =93obvious,=94 and so > =93overlooked,=94 because of course, things in order to be Important, hav= e to > be > far more complex than =93That.=94 > > > > This is the strategy, after all, of the Viceroy butterfly, > which so resembles a Monarch, that no enemy will attack it; because the > Monarch > possesses a poison that kills those who try to eat it, and so acts as a > =93deterrence=94 > that the Viceroy copies in terms solely of =93appearance.=94 > > > > =93Looks can be deceiving,=94 after all, and so =93one person=92s > meat is another=92s poison,=94 becomes a meat that all comers take to be = a > poison > when it is actually a meat mimicking the costuming of the poisonous one. > > > > The equivalence of the poisonous and the non-poisonous both > appearing as the poisonous, becomes that =91Pataphysical =93exception,=94= that > pebble > in the shoe that grinds and grinds away, destroying the edifice of the Ve= ry > Important Person whose foot is continually stepping on it, and so becomes= a > form of =93resistance=94 which understands full well that clich=E9d phras= e, =93the > Bigger they are, the Harder they Fall.=94 > > > > Jarry=92s Pere > Ubu and Dr Faustroll and the vision of =91Pataphysics were born from the > cunning > of schoolboys satirizing a Physics teacher at their lycee, and turning > these satires > and their objects into Theater and the discovery that =93as Metaphysic is= to > Physics, so =91Pataphysics is to Metaphysics.=94 > > Ubu and =91Pataphysics are born out of a > satirizing, inverting, and subverting of > the Institutionalized forms and formulae of =93knowledge=94 which a citiz= en > bent on > a =93career=94 is forced to undergo. Where the French College du =91Patap= hysique > (revived, after a quarter century of dormancy, in 2000) and its recently > formed > English rough equivalent, equivalency being at the =93heart of the matter= ,=94 > differ from the North American =93Pataphysics,=94 is, as Jorn foresees, i= ts > being > turned back into an Institutionalized form and formulae which take on the > rites > and trappings of a new form of religion. > > > One might then > observe that the ideas and characters > born of the immediate =93wreck-creations=94 > and absurd comedies of the > classroom, the satires of the > =93Professor,=94 and of the entire sets of > Jargons, discourses, that have been erected > to produce both an elite and a =93common=94 mass=94 of students of the = =93same > mind,=94 of the > same mind, that is, regarding the Seriousness of their Placements and > Advancements within the Structures of Society=92s various Institutions; o= ne > might > observe in this that the originary =93scene=94 of Ubu in opposition to al= l of > these, is turned inside out and becomes again the very site of the > production > of a conformity. > > > > This is the > situation which Jorn presents: > > > > =93If Pataphysics had been taught anonymously, and avoided > criticism, it might have slipped unnoticed into the world. Had this had > happened, the apparently insoluble problem of Pataphysical authority - th= e > consecration of the inconsecratable - would not have occurred. =93 > > > > That is, if =91Pataphysics had indeed flown into the world as > the Viceroy, camouflaged and whose recognition was a form of misreading, > misunderstanding and hence =93unrecognizablity,=94 =91Pataphysics would h= ave > eluded > the confrontation with the Authorities of the Institutional > =93Authorizations,=94 > who strip away an unrecognized anonymity, a camouflaged misreading > misunderstood and too obvious to notice, and instead set up in their > absences > the presence of their own Authorships. > > > > This situation which Jorn presents is somewhat similar to > another one being written of at roughly the same time=97the situation of = the > =93Garden Dwarfs=94 as Hans Richter calls them in his Dada: Art and Anti= Art. > The =93Garden dwarfs=94 are the > neo-Dadas, who in a sense obey the letter but not the spirit of the Law, = a > Law > which did not exist until they had retrospectively =93recognized=94 its > existence > and so initiated a trend that in recent years has become the falsificatio= n > of > Dada in the US textbooks and Institutions with > their ensuing cult of Tzara, the least interesting and least Dada of > them all, who turned promotion of a borrowed name and movement into a one > man > show starring himself, and continued on like an animated corpse long afte= r > the > Dadas had all left, finding himself finally > cornered in the company of the emerging Surrealists=97co-founding with An= dre > Breton the journal =93Literature,=94 the very anti-thesis of the Hugo > Ball-named > =93Dada=94-- with whom he participated in and celebrated Dada=92s =93fun= eral. > > > > For Richter, Huelsenbeck and other Dadas, the accomplishment > of Tzara is to eradicate any of the =93Revolutionary=94 and =93street=94 = elements > in > Dada, and instead produce a series of literary =93manifestos=94 which lea= d > straight > to the heart of the matter for him: =93Literature.=94 > > > > (As Henry Miller put it in the =93Fourteenth Ward=94 section in > Black Spring: =93What is not in the open > street is false, derived that is to say, literature.=94) > > > > This retrospective revisioning, reformulating and > re-fashioning of Dada=97and of Neo-Dada and the Garden Dwarfs - in order = to > have > it conform better to the current situation and narrative of the poet/arti= st > in > the US, Jorn recognizes also as a crisis > within =91Pataphysics: > > > > The great merit of > pataphysics is to have confirmed that there is no metaphysical > justification > for forcing everybody to believe in the same absurdity, possibilities for > the > absurd and in art are legion. The only logical deduction that can be made > from > this principle is the anarchist thesis: to each his own absurdities. The > negation of this principle is expressed in the legal power of the state, > which > forces all citizens to submit to an identical set of political absurditie= s. > > > It must by > now be apparent that once a Pataphysical authority is accepted, it become= s > a > demagogic weapon against the Pataphysical spirit > > The game is the Pataphysical > overture to the world. The realisation of such games is the creation of > situations. A crisis therefore exists, caused by the crucial problem whic= h > each > Pataphysical adept must resolve: s/he must apply the situlogic method and > attack the conditions of the reigning society, or else simply refuse to d= o > anything whatsoever about the situation. It is in the latter resolution t= o > this > problem that Pataphysics becomes the religion best adapted to life in the > society of the spectacle: a religion of passivity and pure absence > > > > This > =93religion of passivity=94 adapted to the life of the society of the spe= ctacle > may > be found today in the latest =93hot topics=94 of the ongoing entropy of a= n > Institutionalized setting, which for Melville=92s Bartleby was to be foun= d on > Wall Street, where the Scrivener states his =93I would prefer not to=94 > continue > copying, and eventually finds himself in the Tombs, perversely observed a= nd > studied by his former employer, a lawyer in the service of the Market. T= he > entropy of a =93case=94 as seemingly > =93passive=94 as Bartleby's is found in the =93conceptual works=94 which = dedicate > themselves to =93copying, data filing, and > boredom-,=94 the latter being regarded by artists from Baudelaire to the > Dadas to > Dubuffet and beyond as the =93enemy of art.=94 Or =93the enemy of existen= ce.=94 > > > > The religious aspect of boredom Baudelaire called =93Acedie, > la maladie des moines.=94 > > Acedia=97the malady of monks. > > > > And monks, to be sure, of some denominations, were known to > be =93copyists,=94 some of whom, anonymously, created some among the most > beautiful > Visual Poetry and Book Art known in the West. > > > > Perhaps the situation of today=92s poets who are dependent on machines > and others=92 materials to copy or =93flarf,=94or =93pataphysic=94 or =93= Ouliper=94 or > =93Vizpoize=94 > or =93avant=94are spurred on by the lashes > of the command to =93publish or perish.=94 > > In Enrique > Villa-Matas=92 Bartleby and Company, one encounters the opposite of this = need > and > desire to =93appear in print,=94 no matter what it is or in what form. T= his > suggests the resurrection of the last > minute plagiarized paper as a =93radical form of discourse=94 to be explo= red in > terms ethical, aesthetical and pros ethical. Plagiarizing, copying, filin= g, > scanning the unbelievable torrents of spam-- all of it a celebration of > one=92s > own =93original=94 unoriginality in =93facing this monster,=94 which is= =97as > Baudelaire > put it, the horror of the =91=94gouffre,=94 that immense chasm of boredo= m, > dullness and nothingness into which > the author of today may tumble, never to be seen or heard from again, > returned > to the anonymity of being =93not published =93or =93out of print.=94 > > > > This is yet another =93crisis=94 facing the author expected to > publish, to =93make a name for her/himself and their Institution,=94 or G= roup, > Movement, Brand Name etc=97 > > > > To at once announce one=92s unoriginality, yet to do so in a > manner originally unoriginal, from some as yet unplundered source, inspir= ed > by > some previously hopelessly obscure or obscene and overlooked author, and = so > to > put a stamp on one=92s productions which is said to a once proclaim the > author > and to be arguing against the author. > > > > This desperate need to produce writing, even if it is > borrowed, stolen, downloaded, copied by hand, purchased on line or from > the super market of literary products > and accessories, where the laughter of Il Professore Vidiamodopo may be > heard > echoing down the aisles of prominently visible poets whose shining > presences > dim even the gaudiest of packaging=92s=97 > > > > This desperate need to produce=97and yet at the same with the > least amount of intellectual labor=97that being replaced by the physical > labor of > the copying filing and being originally unoriginal=97all of it the opposi= te > of > the Writing of the No, of Bartleby=92s =93I prefer not to,=94 or the unwr= itten > non > writing camouflaged inside the misread and misunderstood=97 > > > > The terrible fear driving the horses to go =93faster, faster, > faster=94 as Walt Whitman saw America > dashing to insanity=97 > > > > This terrible fear of the non-existence, le Neant, le Gouffre=97 > > Can be summed up in a sign found in the battered offices for various > services of the Health > and Welfare departments, as well as those were free legal counsel or > financial > advice may be given: > > > > This sign sums it up: > =93If it is not in writing, it never happened.=94 > > > > Perhaps =91Pataphysics may propose as an exception the happening > of something which is unwritten, and so, logically, inferred to be, to > remain, > unwritten=97and hence never having happened,--and yet, it has happened-- > > A happening beyond the bounds of the written, in a zone one > aspect of which Whitman called =93the real war will never get into the > books.=94 > > > > In that case, then, one may understand a =91Pataphysical > writing outside of books, pages, of being written down=97existing as both > happening and writing simultaneously, and al the while remaining =93burie= d,=94 > hidden from the view of those writings which do get into books. > > > > Existing as an unseen, unrecognized, unpublished as it were, > Viceroy, hidden within the gaudy show of the poisonous Monarch, a harmles= s > being concealed inside a killer, an inverse Trojan Horse, an exception to > the > writing that alone produces what happens, because, by not writing, by not > copying, but simply =93resembling in appearance=94 a form of writing know= n as > the > Monarch, it is happening unread, unrecognized, unwritten, and > =91Pataphysically > existing=97 > > > > And without which there could not be, by its unrecognition, > its being anonymous, unknown, its being so obvious it is overlooked=97the= re > could > not be that author, that authority, that authorization, in whose > recognition by its =93standing out > against a background,=94 would be seen > that presence which is called =93writing.=94 > An =93evidence of something that happened.=94 > > > > Even if what happened might be completely fictitious, or an > outright lie-- > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:33:22 -0500 > > From: johncunningham366@GMAIL.COM > > Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Thanks for that enigmatic response, Catherine. Care to be a little more > > verbose? > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Catherine Daly > > Sent: March-24-09 11:45 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics > > > > but it is not... > > > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham > > wrote: > > > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, > Christian > > Bok > > > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry upon > my > > own > > > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > > > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American > book > > > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysical > > work. > > > Any comments? > > > > > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.htm= l > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail= =AE. > > http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=3DTXT_= MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Alan Sondheim Subject: two phenomenologies of acoustic architecture, please have a listen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed two phenomenologies of acoustic architecture, please have a listen Monk Parakeets (Quaker Parrots) nesting at Greenwood Cemetary in Brooklyn - three large nests at the entrance. the sound is digitally slowed-down to reveal the interaction between digital artifacts and call structures and details. a sense of the _space_ of the calls is clear. http://www.alansondheim.org/quarterparrot.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org.tenthparrot.mp3 three audio pieces from a sound version of the Second Life installation, detailing an invisible but definable virtual path among sources. something here resonates with the classical Greek chorus and Sarah Bernardt; the space is evocative, choratic. http://www.alansondheim.org/hardlyremember1.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/hardlyremember2.mp3 http://www.alansondheim.org/hardlyremember3.mp3 ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:02:26 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: Tchicai MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes that was a different project On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 22:07:01 -0500 John Herbert Cunningham writes: > Actually, I believe that the group's name was something like Ars > Nova > Danica. > John Herbert Cunningham > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > Behalf Of George Bowering > Sent: March-24-09 6:13 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Tchicai > > On Mar 18, 2009, at 9:06 AM, John Cunningham wrote: > > . I can't remember the name of the group > > under his own name but that was pretty incredible as well. > > There was the John Tchicai--Irene Schweizer (or however you spell > it) > Group, > but that was in the Seventies, I guess. > > gb > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:20:25 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: me and the bbc imagine that MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "... not safe even in my own head..." great soundscape of insomnia and all of its relateds. here's hoping they somehow archive it... are you two releasing it... 577 records? where? g. > > On Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:38:54 -0400 "steve d. dalachinsky" > writes: >> >> tonight i was on bbc jazz on 3 with my composer friend pete wyer >> also played was music by ornette tchicai (doin a poem by me) >> and others >> it will be up on their site for the next 7 days take a listen if any >> one just got one link listed under i beliecve pete wyer and steve > dalachinsky insomnia poems > > steve > >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00j8f1f > >> >> ================================== >> The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check >> guidelines & sub/unsub info: >> http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html >> >> > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:26:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at The Poetry Project March/April In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Here=B9s what=B9s coming up at The Poetry Project. Also, visit the Project Blog at PoetryProject.Org to read the words of the great guest-blogger Sparrow! Friday, March 27, 10 PM Ali Liebegott & Cristy C. Road Ali Liebegott is the author of the award winning books, The Beautifully Worthless and The IHOP Papers. For the last seven years she=B9s been drawing and illustrating a full-color illustrated novel, titled The Crumb People, about a post-September 11th obsessive duck feeder. She=B9s also writing a sequel to her first book-length poem called, The Summer of Dead Birds. You can find her stacking cat food in aisle 9 of Rainbow Grocery Co-Op in San Francisco. She also writes for The Advocate sometimes. Cristy C. Road is a writer and illustrator who=B9s obsessed with human imperfection and deconstructing the norms which have sheltered her world. Aside from illustrating for countless record covers, book covers, radical organizations, and magazine articles, Road published an independent zine, Greenzine for ten years, and has released three books - Indestructible, a graphic memoir about being a teenage Latina, queer punk in high school; and Distance Makes the Heart Grow Sick, a postcard collection. She recently released Bad Habits, an illustrated love story about a faltering human heart=B9s telepathic connections to the destruction of New York City. She currently hibernates in Brooklyn, NY. Monday, March 30, 8 PM David Buuck & Michael Cross David Buuck lives in Oakland. He is contributing editor at Artweek, and teaches at the San Francisco Art Institute. Recent publications include Ruts, Runts, Site/Cite/City, Between Above and Below, and Buried Treasure Island, a guidebook printed in conjunction with an installation and audio-tour by Barge (the Bay Area Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics). Forthcoming books are The Shunt (Palm Press) and The Treatment (Tangent). Michael Cross is the editor of Atticus/Finch chapbooks, co-editor of On: Contemporary Practice (with Thom Donovan and Kyle Schlesinger), and the author of In Felt Treeling (Chax, 2008). He recently moved to Seattle to finish a dissertation on the work of Louis Zukofsky. Wednesday, April 1, 8 PM Dolores Dorantes & Laura Sol=F3rzano with Jen Hofer Dolores Dorantes=B9s books include sexoPUROsexoVELOZ (2004), Lola (cartas cortas) (2002), Para Bernardo: un eco (2000) and Poemas para ni=F1os (1999). She is founding director of the border arts collective Compa=F1=EDa Frugal, based in Ciudad Ju=E1rez, where she has lived for twenty years. Compa=F1=EDa Frugal supports autonomous projects in the arts and counts among its activities publication of the bi-weekly poetry broadside series Hoja Frugal= , printed in editions of 4000 and distributed free throughout Mexico. A translation of sexoPUROsexoVELOZ and Septiembre, books two and three of Dolores Dorantes by Dolores Dorantes, have been translated by Hofer and published by Counterpath Press and Kenning Editions. Laura Sol=F3rzano is the author, most recently, of Boca perdida (2005), lobo de labio (2001) and Semilla de Ficus (1999). Jen Hofer=B9s en face translation of lobo de labio was published as lip wolf by Action Books in March 2007. Laura is on the editorial board of the literary arts magazine Tragaluz, and currently teaches writing at the Centro de Arte Audiovisual in Guadalajara. Both Dorantes and Sol=F3rzano appeared in the anthology Sin puertas visibles: An Anthology of Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women (ed. and trans. Jen Hofer= , 2003). Jen Hofer=B9s latest book is The Route, an epistolary and poetic collaboration with Patrick Durgin. She lives in Los Angeles, where she teaches poetics in the MFA Writing Program at CalArts, works as a Spanish-language interpreter with the Los Angeles County Superior Courts. She will read her English translations of the work of Dorantes and Sol=F3rzano. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.org/become-a-member Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.org/program-calendar The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.org www.poetryproject.org Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $95 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.org. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: David Buuck Subject: Reading in Philly & NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Philly Sun Mar 29 : Night Flag reading with CA Conrad & Erica Kaufman, at L= =E2=80=99Etage Cabaret : 730 pm http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2009_03_01_archive.html#6285449597358647%23= 6285449597358647 NYC Mon Mar 30 : Poetry Project with Michael Cross : 8pm http://poetryproject.org/program-calendar/michael-cross-david-buuck.html David Buuck davidbuuck.com/barge buuckbarge.wordpress.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:27:39 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Sarith Peou's "Corpse Watching" cited in HARPERS magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -------------------- Objet : Sarith Peou's "Corpse Watching" cited in Harper's Magazine, April 2009 This month's _Harper's_ features a long article on the Cambodian genocide and its aftermath by Ben Ehrenreich, namely "Cambodia's Wandering Dead: The Ghosts of Genocide Pay Penance for Western Guilt." The article is especially brutal on intersections between genocide and tourism in contemporary Cambodia. Ehrenreich opens his essay with a quotation from Sarith Peou's poem, contained in his Tinfish Press chapbook of the same title: Some corpses catch in the thickets, Some corpses catch in the reeds, We don't want their spirits hanging around, So we give them the push that they need. We reprinted Sarith's book recently, after it was a finalist for an Asian American Workshop award. The book was designed by Lian Lederman and contains a second "book", which opens from the left, of photographs from the Cambodian Documentation Center in Phnom Penh. I suspect that's where Ehrenreich got his copy of the book. For more details about the book, please see http://tinfishpress.com under "chapbooks" and consider purchasing one. Many thanks to Ed Bok Lee, who wrote the book's introduction, for spotting the citation. And please keep a tinfishpress.com bookmark on your computer to catch our offerings as they appear. aloha, Susan ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:00:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Winslow, Rosemary" Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's also Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech, and Svartvik's A Grammar of = Contemporary English. It's a linguistic compilation, descriptive not = prescriptive. Superbly helpful in analysis, and meanings of forms, if = that's what you're looking for. ________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) on behalf of Patrick Dillon Sent: Tue 3/24/2009 10:50 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Recommendations for grammar books? Bryan Garner's Dictionary of Modern American Usage (although I think the title may have changed in the most recent edition) and David Foster Wallace's review of the dictionary which appears in = toto in Consider the Lobster On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:27 PM, Andy Gricevich wrote: > Hello, all-- > > A former student just wrote me to ask if I knew of any really good, > comprehensive books on grammar (in the reference vein). Since it = always came > pretty naturally to me, I was impatient with grammar class in school, = and > never solidly learned a lot of the terminology; I could use a = refresher > myself. Does anyone out there have any recommendations for = well-written, > well-organized grammar books? He wants "the whole thing." > > (I thought of you partly because Joe--the friend and former = student--is > reading essays on poetics, and trying to get more of the terminology > therein). > > cheers, > > Andy > > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check = guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:14:49 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tim Peterson Subject: Come Hear! A Poetry Reading at the LGBT Center In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathaniel Siegel presents Come Hear! A Poetry Reading at the LGBT Center Saturday, March 28, 2009 1-4 PM Featuring: Bill Kushner Moonshine Shorey Stephanie Gray Carol Mirakove Eileen Myles Joseph O. Legaspi Douglas A. Martin Jen Benka Tim Peterson or Trace Guillermo Castro Betsy Andrews Elizabeth Reddin Regie Cabico http://welcometoboogcity.com/come_hear.pdf at the Poet's Salon The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender Community Center 208 W. 13th Street, NYC ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:51:47 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: [edliberation] request for help--seeking bookstores (fwd) Comments: cc: lynette cruz MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_e8q9+z6HrejxFovNbHDRig)" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --Boundary_(ID_e8q9+z6HrejxFovNbHDRig) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:35:03 -0400 From: Tara Mack I am trying to find progressive, independent bookstores from anywhere in the country that cater to teachers, such as Bank Street Bookstore in New York and Busboys and Poets in DC. I want to find out if these bookstores might be interested in carrying Planning to Change the World, the social justice lesson plan book that the network co-publishes with the New York Collective of Radical Educators. If you can send me the name and location of your favorite bookstore, I would be much obliged. Thanks so much for your help! Tara Tara Mack, Director Education for Liberation Network http://www.edliberation.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --Boundary_(ID_e8q9+z6HrejxFovNbHDRig) Content-id: Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: _______________________________________________ Network mailing list Network@lists.edliberation.org http://lists.edliberation.org/listinfo.cgi/network-edliberation.org ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html --Boundary_(ID_e8q9+z6HrejxFovNbHDRig)-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:26:19 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Tonight, this is the night, you'll see... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Light... Stain of Poetry presents *Joel Chace, Elena Georgiou, Stuart Greenhouse, Cindy King, Christian Peet & Brett Price* March 27th @ 7pm Joel Chace has published=C2=A0poetry and prose poetry=C2=A0in print and electronic magazines such as 6ix, Tomorrow, Lost and Found Times, Coracle, xStream, Three Candles, 2River View, Joey & the Black Boots, Recursive Angel, and Veer. He has published more than a dozen print and electronic collections. Just out from BlazeVox Books is CLEANING THE MIRROR:=C2=A0NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, and from Paper Kite Press is MATTER NO MATTER, another full-length collection.=C2=A0Two=C2=A0chapbook-le= ngth poetic sequences have also recently been published: SCAFFOLD, from Country ValleyPress; and (b)its, a "Tiny Book" from Eileen Tabios's Meritage Press. For many years, Chace has been Poetry Editor for the experimental electronic magazine 5_Trope. ~~~ Elena Georgiou is the author of Rhapsody of the Naked Immigrant (Harbor Mountain Press, 2009) and mercy mercy me, which won a=C2=A0Lambda Literary Award=C2=A0for poetry, was a finalist for the Publishing Triangle Award, and was reissued by the=C2=A0University of Wisconsin Press=C2=A0in 2= 003. She is also co-editor (with=C2=A0Michael Lassell) of the=C2=A0poetry anthol= ogy, The World In Us (St. Martin's Press). Georgiou has won an=C2=A0Astraea Emerging Writers Award, a=C2=A0New York Foundation=C2=A0of the Arts Fellows= hip, and was a fellow at the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts. Her recent work appears in Denver Quarterly, BOMB, MiPoesia, Lumina,=C2=A0Spoon River=C2=A0Review, Cream City Review, and Gargoyle. She is an editor at Tarpaulin Sky and a member of the faculty in the MFA program at Goddard College,=C2=A0Vermont. ~~~ Stuart Greenhouse is the author of the chapbook What Remains (published by the=C2=A0Poetry Society of America) and the e-chapbook "All Architecture" (published by End & Shelf Press). He lives in New Jersey with his wife and children. ~~~ Cynthia Arrieu-King is an assistant professor of=C2=A0creative writing=C2= =A0at Stockton College in New Jersey. Her poems have or will appear this year in LIT, The Lumberyard,=C2=A0Black Warrior=C2=A0Review, Forklift Ohio = and the new horseless press anthology on collaboration. ~~~ Christian Peet is the author of Big American Trip (Shearsman Books, 2009) and=C2=A0two=C2=A0chapbooks: The Nines, Book 2 (Interbirth Books, 200= 9), and The Nines, Book 1 (Palm Press, 2006). His work appears in the anthology, A Best Of Fence: The First Nine Years, and in journals such as Action Yes, Denver Quarterly, Octopus Magazine, Practice: New Writing + Art, and SleepingFish, among others. He lives in Vermont, where he runs=C2=A0Tarpaulin Sky Press. ~~~ Brett Price is an assistant editor of Forklift, Ohio: A Journal of Poetry, Cooking, and Light Industrial Safety. He is working toward an MFA at=C2=A0Bard College. He is the author of Trouble With Mapping, a chapbook (Flying Guillotine, 2008). Other writing can be found in H_NGM_N, OCTOPUS, LA FOVEA, BIG BELL, and MILKMONEY. He lives in Brooklyn, NY. ~~~ stain 766 grand street brooklyn, ny=C2=A011211 (L train to Grand Street, 1 block west) 718/387-7840 open daily @ 5 p.m. ~~~~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo=C5=BEi=C4=8Devi=C4=87 Visit=C2=A0www.stainofpoetry.com for full calendar! _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:12:01 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Milwaukee is a very 'pataphysical town. Question: in the OuLiPo, is there a split between the Renaissance / Baroque / Early Modern a la Ariosto, et.al. -- acrostics, cabinet plays, wunderkammer, etc. -- and the Rabelaisian catalog, the medieval almanack? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:34:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: CA Conrad Subject: THIS SUNDAY Erica Kaufman, David Buuck, CAConrad in Philly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *Night Flag Series presents David Buuck, Erica Kaufman, and CAConrad Sunday March 29 @ 7:30pm L'Etage (above Beau Monde) 624 S. 6th Street PHILLY HOSTED BY FRANK SHERLOCK David Buuck lives in Oakland, California. He is the author of THE SHUNT, coming this spring from Palm Press, and _Buried Treasure Island_ (BARGE/YBCA 2008). He is contributing editor at *Artweek* & teaches at the San Francisco Art Institute and Bard College. More info at davidbuuck.com/barge and buuckbarge.wordpress.com. Erica Kaufman is the author of Censory Impulse(Factory School 2009) and co-curates Belladonna CAConrad is the son of white trash asphyxiation whose childhood included selling cut flowers along the highway for his mother and helping her shoplift. He escaped to Philadelphia where he lives and writes with the PhillySound poets. His latest book The Book of Frank (Chax Press, 2009) received The Gil Ott Book Award. He is also the author of Deviant Propulsion (Soft Skull Press, 2006), (Soma)tic Midge (FAUX Press, 2008), and two forthcoming books, advanced ELVIS course (Soft Skull Press, 2009), and a collaboration with poet Frank Sherlock titled The City Real & Imagined: Philadelphia Poems (Factory School Press, 2009).* #posted by poet CAConrad @ 10:08 AM -- PhillySound: new poetry http://PhillySound.blogspot.com THE BOOK OF FRANK by CAConrad http://CAConrad.blogspot.com ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:06:40 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Heller Subject: NEW BOOK Comments: To: british-irish-poets@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Comments: cc: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable new from ahadada: TWO NOVELLAS: MARBLE SNOWS & THE STUDY by Michael Heller As with Michael Heller=92s memoirs and essays, Two Novellas: Marble Snows & The Study continues his project of poetry by other means. These works, written some twenty years apart and drawing on such diverse influences as Akutagawa=92s short fictions, Joyce=92s Portrait and Valery=92= s Monsieur Teste, embody Heller=92s exploration of language=92s dramatic relationship to character, fate and incident. Using radically different narrative techniques, the two novellas are united by a persistent vision, both anguished and comic, of a consciousness ransomed to words and yet, in mysterious ways, seemingly redeemed by them. From previous comment on Michael Heller=92s work: =93In the subtle resources of this articulate poet=92s testament, one voice= again speaks for all.=94=ADRobert Creeley =93He=92s somewhat a latter-day Jewish Yeats, full of terror and joy, trying= to make some sense of the chaotic destructiveness of the 20th century in lyric poetry. It is heroic if impossible task.=94=ADThe East Hampton Star =93...a questing intelligence, forever on the trail of the epistemological,= the =91flimsy beatitudes of order=92=94=ADThe New York Times Book Review =93At once grave and uplifting, the poems in Exigent Futures are serene meditations on time, decay, and loss that recover from the ruin a repletion that is also a recognition of our necessary incompleteness before the world and language.=94=ADJacket Magazine Published by ahadada books Publication date: 04/01/2009 ISBN 9780980887341 80 pages Price: $15.95 Available from ahadada books=20 (http://www.ahadadabooks.com/ ) and SPD (http://www.spdbooks.org/) Eschaton (new poems) Talisman House Publishers=20 (2009) available at SPD, Greenfield Distribution=20 (www.gfibooks.com), www. amazon.com and good=20 bookstores. Two Novellas: Marble Snows & The=20 Study (ahadada press 2009) available from SPD,=20 amazon.com and from ahadadpress.com. Speaking The=20 Estranged: Essays on the Work of George Oppen=20 (2008); Uncertain Poetries: Essays on Poets,=20 Poetry and Poetics (2005) and Exigent Futures:=20 New and Selected Poems (2003) available at=20 www.saltpublishing.com, amazon.com and good=20 bookstores. Survey of work at=20 http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/heller.htm=20 Collaborations with the composer Ellen Fishman=20 Johnson at=20 http://www.efjcomposer.com/EFJ/Collaborations.html=20 Recordings at http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Heller.html =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:36:08 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Artist Robert Delford Brown, dead at 78 Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, ubuweb@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Artist Robert Delford Brown, dead at 78 Today at 5:26pm by Mark Bloch The body of 78-year-old artist Robert Delford Brown, who played a role =20= in many of the late 20th Century's major art movements, was found the =20= evening of March 25 in the Cape Fear River, not far from his home in =20 Wilmington, North Carolina. No foul play is suspected. The artist was =20= reportedly contemplating a new work utilizing the river and was also a =20= person who enjoyed taking walks in natural settings. Brown moved to =20 Wilmington from New York City two years ago in anticipation of his =20 first museum exhibition at the Cameron Art Museum. In his final piece of artwork one month ago, Brown utilized social =20 networks to collaborate with local artists on the =93Kazooathon=94 via =20= Wilmington=92s Independent Art Company and helped organize a performance = =20 art parade with kazoos in downtown Wilmington. The late Allan Kaprow, originator of the Happening movement in the =20 early 1960s, credited Robert Delford Brown with "ecstatic power" =20 saying he "threw a monkey wrench into the avant garde in those days. =20 He was (and is) a visionary you couldn't ignore or forget. Brown's =20 work is important. He touches a nerve at the core of the social codes =20= that organize not only our behavior but also the limits of our art=85 =20= Robert Delford Brown's transcendent vision takes on a great =20 significance.=94 Walter Hopps, the late and legendary American curator said in 2004, =20 =93There were some outrageous performances of the time. Robert Delford =20= Brown took this to an apogee, always wonderfully worked out. He was =20 always very thorough in what he did -- not a passing gesture, =20 casually.=94 And =93those of us who have been involved with him for the =20= most part really know and admire his work.=94 Hermann Nitsch, the Austrian founder of Vienna Aktionism, said, =93He is = =20 one of the pioneers among the artists who have worked with the taboo =20 on meat and flesh. He has been doing so in an entirely entirely =20 radical way and with remarkable consistency since the beginning of the =20= 1960s. His work is charged with the spirit of a timeless confrontation =20= with absurdity.=94 Indeed, it was Brown, himself, who once said of one of the Vaudeville =20= comedians that he loved, =93Ed Wynn taught us the profound truth that =20= being foolish was not disabling, but actually a path toward liberation =20= and discovery." Brown lived this philosophy to the fullest, valuing =20 art and art history but embracing total freedom more than anything =20 else. Though he decided as a young man to dedicate himself to art, he =20= jettisoned that label when it was necessary, if it got in the way. The =20= central concept in the teachings of his self-styled religion, =20 Funkupaganism, also known as The First National Church of the =20 Exquisite Panic, Inc. is the Theory of Pharblongence. "Pharblongence" =20= is the anglicized version of an ancient word of Yiddish origin =20 translated as "total confusion". =93It is a humorous way of reminding =20= ourselves that the only way we have of learning is through trial and =20 error,=94 he told us. Robert Delford Brown was born in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains =20= during the Great Depression in Portland, Colorado. =93It was very =20 rural,=94 he said to me in a series of interviews we did in anticipation = =20 of his upcoming Wilmington exhibition catalog. His father was employed =20= testing cement as a chemical technician. "I was born in Central =20 Colorado in 1930. No one is more American than I am,=94 he told me in =20= 2006. Both sides of his family had been in the USA since Revolutionary =20= times. His father, whose name was also Robert Delford Brown, was of =20 Irish, German, and Dutch stock, originally hailing from a farm in =20 Illinois. His mother=92s family were farmers from Kansas. He said that =20= he once told his mother, =93If you join the Daughters of the American =20= Revolution, you've lost a son.=94 Brown was born a Junior but, like the =20= DAR pedigree, dropped it, =93I don=92t need it.=94 The family moved to = Long =20 Beach when he was 12. =93For my benefit,=94 he added. Soon after, Brown discovered jazz, a passion he held throughout his =20 life. =93I don=92t know how I stumbled on it. I think I found these = books =20 in the Junior High School library. There were two books about white =20 musicians in the library, biographies of white musicians, Frank =20 Deshwacker, and Muffy Spanger, and Peewee Russell.=94 With a friend, =20 Bill Hagleheimer, Brown would attend jazz gigs in downtown Los =20 Angeles, and at more respectable places like the Los Angeles =20 Philharmonic. =93There was this place called The Lightning Room, and the = =20 Lightning Room had a little stage about 3 feet by 3 feet and then =20 strip, the strip teaser would do this dance on this little platform. =20 And then there was a blind drummer who played the saxophone.=94 He =20 continued, =93You=92d have 50 musicians up at a jazz concert, Coleman =20= Hawkins, Dizzy Gillespie, Lester Young, they all showed up. And I was =20= like 15 years old. My mother would drive me and sit outside while I =20 was in there =85a little white boy with all these black people. And the =20= black guys=85 they=92d be passing quarts of vodka around.=94 He didn=92t = =20 partake despite being introduced to beer at 15. He was there for the =20 music. As a student at Long Beach State College, Brown met the painter Ed =20 Moses who had just gotten out of the service. Moses later introduced =20 him to the L.A. gallery owner Virginia Dwan, who rented him a second =20 floor apartment over the merry-go-round in Santa Monica. It kept him =20 awake, =93until 2 in the morning=85=92I=92m looking over a four leaf = clover=92 =20 over and over again=85I lived at the Santa Monica Pier for 2 or 3 = years.=94 Brown studied art at Long Beach College and at UCLA from 1948-1952, =20 receiving his B.A. from UCLA and his M.A. there in 1956. He studied =20 drawing with the Surrealist Howard Warshaw (1920-1977), who had been =20 given his first solo exhibition by the legendary gallerist Julian Levy =20= in 1945. Brown worked with Warshaw from 1955, when the teacher had a =20 retrospective at the Pasadena Museum of Art, until 1958. Warshaw, =20 known for developing a unique language and philosophy of drawing, =20 infused the scientific knowledge of the day in the work that must also =20= have appealed to the young Brown who later became a vociferous =20 disciple of Buckminster Fuller. In Warshaw=92s lines, like Brown=92s = early =20 work, one can read the emotional tenor of the artist and subject. Also =20= like Brown, the New York-born Organic Cubist Warshaw was a transplant =20= to California. He had moved west in 1942 and found work in the studios =20= of Disney and Warner Brothers. Beginning in 1951, Warshaw taught at =20 the University of California, which he continued for more than 20 =20 years completing monumental murals for several UC campuses. Another future art world fixture that Brown met as a young man was =20 Walter Hopps who would go on to become the curator at the Pasadena =20 Museum of Art and then the Menil Collection in Houston as well as many =20= other positions. The two met at UCLA when Hopps was on the GI Bill. =93I = =20 thought these kids who had been in the Army, I thought they knew =20 everything. I was 17-18 years old, they were in their 20s. I thought =20 they really knew what the hell was going on,=94 Brown said. Via a =20 psychiatric clinic associated with UCLA, Brown, Moses and Hopps all =20 became male attendants to a schizophrenic young woman who Hopps =20 recalled liked to be taken to Disneyland in Anaheim. Brown continued =20 with low-paying work in the mental health area for the next few years. In 1952 Brown had his first show in Ed Kelly=92s Frame Shop in LA. =20 Walter Hopps said in a 2004 interview, =93I was disappointed that nobody = =20 bought anything. After the show was over, he took it all out to the =20 back yard of the place and burned it. He had been known to do this =20 with his art, and this was the first occasion that this, sadly, =20 happened.=94 (from pg. 11, Robert Delford Brown: Meat, Maps and Militant = =20 Metaphysics, 2008, edited by Mark Bloch, published by the Cameron Art =20= Museum.) =93My grandmother was a control freak and my mother was a control freak =20= and finally I got out of southern California when I was 28 years old=85. = =20 I could not stand Southern California=94 he said. He also felt that he =20= had been deliberately steered away from the happiness he had felt as =20 an actor in a high school theater production. =93Most parents would be =20= thrilled that their son had some success but, whatever the reason, my =20= parents were upset. I think my poor father told my mother, I think =20 he=92s going to be a fairy. I was a thespian. I was a thespian! I just =20= had a hell of a good time yelling=85it was like being drunk. I was given = =20 permission to act out. Miss Jacobson said, just go for it=85 but my =20 parents were obsessed and so after the semester and Miss Jacobson said =20= are you going to sign up, and I said no. I had all of this success, =20 incredible success, everybody thought I was fabulous, everybody =20 thought I was funny and I just couldn=92t take my parents=92 behavior. I = =20 was sick.=94 In 1959, Brown moved to Manhattan. =93If you aspired toward becoming an =20= artist you had to go to New York.=94 Brown spent the next few months =20 =93walking up and down the streets of the city, visiting every gallery=94 = =20 and =93devouring=94 every art magazine or text about art he could find. =93The most serendipitous event in my life was my meeting with Rhett =20 Cone.=94 Brown said in 1990. =93She had founded the Cricket Theater on =20= Second Avenue and Tenth Street where she showcased new material, =20 presented the "Merry Mimes" children's theater, and produced and =20 directed plays by such writers as Edward Albee, and Samuel Becket. For =20= the past 27 years Rhett has been my most fervent admirer. For the past =20= 25 years she has been my wife and enthusiastic collaborator, as well =20 as co-conspirator.=94 His wife and art-partner for the next thirty =20 years, who died of lung cancer in 1978, once told an interviewer, =20 =93When I met Bob he was 29 and working in a psychiatric ward. A lot of =20= his work comes out of that experience.=94 Brown once said, =93In 1963 I =20= met Rhett and life got better. I was in a coffee shop and she came in =20= and she looked hot. She=92d just been divorced." Brown said later of =20 Rhett and her two daughters, Peggy and Carol, =93We were like a little =20= family,=94 Brown had found the support system he needed and his art =20 career as a first rate iconoclast took off shortly thereafter. =93When I came out of school in 1950, the art world I was preparing for =20= was gone,=94 Brown said. But in New York, he forged head first into the =20= new art sensibilities that were developing in the late 50s and early =20 60s. Happenings, Fluxus, and Ray Johnson=92s New York Correspondence =20 School and even Pop Art had not yet been named, yet change was in the =20= air and Brown was one of the many artists who arrived on the New York =20= scene in those days, sensing that something dramatic was about to =20 happen. =93In retrospect, Cubism was Pop Art. The entire history of =20 modern art was Pop Art,=94 Brown once said. But as Abstract =20 Expressionism faded away, galleries and artists alike were making room =20= for the =93Neo-Dada=94 shows as they were called in those days and the =20= time-based, action-oriented art works emerging at the time that =20 brought art and life one step closer together than had the drip =20 paintings of Jackson Pollock. =93I met Allan Kaprow when were in Paris on our honeymoon.=94 Brown = said. =20 =93Rhett and I went down to this gallery. It was an incredible =20 Happening. And then I met him in New York City. And because Rhett was =20= friendly, we kept in touch.=94 Brown often credited Rhett with being a =20= license for him not to speak. =93She liked to talk and I didn=92t. I =20 didn=92t have to talk until Rhett died.=94 Kaprow provided the missing link for Brown=92s career that came shortly =20= thereafter. Kaprow encouraged Brown=92s participation in his upcoming =20= presentation of the musical play entitled "Originale" by the German =20 avant garde composer Karlheinz Stockhausen to be held at Judson Hall =20 in New York City as part of Charlotte Moorman=92s =93Second Annual Avant = =20 Garde Festival=94 in 1964. Brown elevated the intellectual affair to the = =20 level of spectacle when he and Rhett created the memorable image of =20 "the mad painter" which was splashed across the pages of local papers =20= and national news magazines such as Time. Brown=92s phallic spaceman =20 image had made him a standout among the likes of his contemporaries =20 Kaprow, Moorman, Allen Ginsburg, Nam June Paik, and Jackson MacLow. Soon after, Brown created a second success d'scandale, the "Meat =20 Show", which was staged in 1964 in a large refrigerated space in New =20 York=92s Meat District near 14th street and the West Side Highway. =93We = =20 went and rented a meat locker, telling the owner that we were making a =20= movie and needed a set,=94 Rhett said. Brown became the first artist to =20= stage a meat performance, renting =93tons of meat and gallons of blood=94 = =20 and a refrigerated locker for a blood-spattered Happening. Brown had =20 taken as his palette, among other items, =93200 pounds of beef livers, =20= 50 gallon barrels of lungs, a pig, several lamb heads and 25 pounds of =20= human hair.=94 Said Brown=92s wife, =93The trucks arrived bringing all this steaming = hot =20 meat. We hung it everywhere on hooks. Then we got thousands of yards =20 of lingerie-like sheer fabric and created rooms as in a brothel. It =20 actually looked very erotic. The cops came in to inspect and said we =20 had to have some red lights in the back which made it even more =20 erotic.=94 In fact it was Rhett, well-versed in the ways of publicity =20= from her days in the theatre, who had the event announced on the =20 society pages of the Daily News. Limos were pulling up for the one-=20 night Happening, creating a scene more reminiscent of an episode of =20 the =93Three Stooges=94 than an art opening. In 1964, Brown tackled =20 another taboo when he founded his most well-known and longest-lasting =20= creation, The First National Church of the Exquisite Panic, Inc.. =20 Brown later explained, =93The idea for the creation of a church began =20= when Allan Kaprow asked me to play the role of The Painter in =20 Karlheinz Stochausen's =91Originale=92. I wanted to do something = visually =20 interesting. Jackson Pollock had thrown paint, Georges Mathieu had =20 dressed funny and squirted paint from tubes, and Yves Klein had =20 dragged naked women covered with paint across canvases, and had used a =20= flame thrower to paint with fire. I decided that I would wear a =20 firefighter's suit and drop eggs and red powder from a ladder. I =20 suddenly realized that I was coming up with a creation myth that had =20 similarly occurred to people for millions of years." Brown incorporated his =93charismatically inclined, transcendental, =20 humorist=94 church which included a cross-eyed smiley face deity called =20= =93Who Knows?=94 (As in, Why is it not raining? Who Knows?) And like any = =20 other religion, prohibitions. Well at least one: Brown said in many a =20= performance or speech to an inquiry or simply anyone that would =20 listen, =93Our one prohibition is DO NOT EAT CARS.=94 And adding, =93There= =20 is only one commandment: LIVE! After all, this is the one fundamental =20= irreducible requisite for (in his trademark capital letters) LIFE.=94 He = =20 also teaches that there are FOUR WAYS: THE RIGHT WAY, THE WRONG WAY, =20 THE OTHER WAY, AND THE SOUFFLE. And finally, in his most oft-quoted =20 tenet, =93Many religions teach how to get to Nirvana. They all give very = =20 complicated directions. The First National Church of the Exquisite =20 Panic, Inc. tells you how to get to NEVADA. It sounds close, and it=92s =20= simple: YOU TAKE A BUS!=94 This resulted in the =93Maps to Nevada,=94 a series of drawing, painting = =20 and calligraphy work on canvas, fine paper and occasionally even rugs =20= or travel maps that stretched across several decades of work and =20 incorporated the Matta- or Tanguy-esque drafting style he honed as a =20 young man under the direction of Warshaw. In 1967, Rhett and Robert Brown discovered the Jackson Square Branch =20 library building that was up for sale in the heart of Greenwich =20 Village. They immediately created a physical headquarters of the =20 Church they founded in 1964. They moved from Rhett=92s home at King=92s =20= Point in Great Neck, Long Island, to the building on West 13th Street, =20= where Horatio, Greenwich Avenue and 8th Street meet, dubbed by Brown =20 as =93The Great Building Crack-Up.=94 Large ceremonial plaques soon =20 adorned a courtyard fenced in by iron with large, cross-eyed metal =20 sculptures flanking the entrance way of the distinctive three-story =20 (plus two basements) building. The plaques explained that the =20 =93Crackup=94 was a collision between two architects and two centuries: =20= one, the 19th century=92s William Morris Hunt who built the regal =20 structure and also designed the base of the Statue of Liberty and =20 parts of the Metropolitan Museum; and the other, the 20th century=92s =20= Paul Rudolf whose buildings at Yale in the 1960s earned him a =20 reputation as an important Modernist. Brown bought in the latter to =20 completely transform the building inside and out. Brown called the =20 architectural landmark an =93architectural improvisation=94 and = =93doodling =20 with architecture=94 and for the next three decades it provided a home =20= for Brown and his family, his Church, and dozens of unorthodox art =20 exhibitions, collaborations, gatherings and performances which he =20 called Grand Opening Performances. Brown and Rhett were hailed as one of the first =93artist couples=94 of =20= the 1960s. Christo and Jean-Claude followed them as did the Claus =20 Oldenburgs and others that Brown and Rhett knew. Bob and Rhett were a =20= fixture around town, known as =93The Bobsy Twins=94 as they were friends = =20 with or performed with most of the Happenings and Fluxus-linked =20 artists of the day including Kaprow, Oldenburg, Wolf Vostell, Jim Dine =20= and Carolee Schneeman. Brown continued to perform throughout the next four decades. He =20 created =93events=94 in Los Angeles and Nice. He sported pink hair = decades =20 before it was fashionable, getting arrested and causing a scandal in =20 London in the Sixties. He also, according to his Meat, Maps and =20 Militant Metaphysics catalog, first suggested Charlotte Moorman might =20= remove her clothes and that Yoko Ono try a visit to London in 1966 to =20= increase her chances of fame and fortune. Whether or not these =20 reminiscences are true, no one would deny that Brown was often ahead =20 of his time. Brown is also cited not only as a precursor to meat-artists like =20 Nitsch, Joseph Beuys and Damien Hirst, but he is also said to have =20 anticipated the =93appropriation=94 movement with his books =93Hanging=94 = and =20 =93Ulysses=94 and artists like Joel-Peter Witkin or others who create =20= blurry and/or gruesome photographs decades later with books like his =20 =93First Class Portraits.=94 Brown said, "In 1965 there was a big to-do =20= over pornography. I found illegal fetish photographs from a set of =20 German text books on sexual perversions which a psychoanalyst had to =20 import for me. I had these postage stamp size reproductions enlarged =20 to life size at Modernage photo studios. In order to get this done, I =20= had to have a letter from Lawrence Alloway, who was then a curator at =20= the Guggenheim Museum, stating that I was a legitimate artist and that =20= my motives were serious. To color them I used Marshall's tinting oils =20= which at that time were considered to be a totally obsolete technique. =20= When I showed them to fellow artists the response was silence. A few =20 years later everyone rediscovered tinting, but the subject matter =20 never caught on." But that was before the =93post-punk=94 1980s and =20 skateboard culture of the last two decades during which Brown=92s work =20= enjoyed increasing appreciation from a younger non-art-oriented crowd. Perhaps Brown=92s prescience during the 60s and 70s became his undoing. =20= He broke with a lifetime love of alcohol in 1978. =93I fell into an =20 alcoholic trance with my first bottle of beer at the age of fifteen,=94 =20= he said in 2006. =93Fifteen year old boys are insane to begin with, and =20= I kissed a girl. I smoked a cigarette and inhaling it was like =20 swallowing a hot rock. There was no reason in the world why anybody =20 would do anything like that.=94 But Brown was off to the races. Even =20 demolishing a car didn=92t stop him as young man and so he continued =20 drinking for the next 30 years. But in the late 70s, Brown found his =20 way to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and soon gave up alcohol and =20 drugs. =93It saved my life. I found it at 48. These kids that are coming = =20 in at 15 and 16 - it saves a lot of demolished causes. Everyone has a =20= voice, everyone has a story. We share our experience, strength and =20 hope. AA functions. It actually functions.=94 One of the original Fluxus artists, Alison Knowles once called him "a =20= wonderful artist friend. I liked him very much. Robert Delford Brown =20 was always totally clothed in joy, along with additives like dope and =20= alcohol and money." In recent years Brown parlayed the cooperative spirit of the recovery =20= =93movement=94 into his art work. =93People Helping People is the = Future=94 =20 emblazoned his collages and paintings of the last decade. He also =20 transformed the familiar cross-eyed =93Who Knows?=94 face-as-logo from = the =20 early days of his church into a forward looking one that said =93What =20= Great Art!=94 Brown spoke positively about the future but also railed =20= against recent political events during the Bush years, increasingly =20 making a vision of a world without a need for politics and =20 environmentalism the goal and subject matter of his work. His website =20= homepage decrees, =93The empowerment of the individual is progressing =20= inexorably. Billions of people will demand an end to war. Billions of =20= people will demand an end to poverty.=94 He was delighted by Obama=92s recent election while remaining skeptical =20= and cautious. But he remained an optimist to the end, always believing =20= that a =93total and complete global transformation=94 was coming. In the = =20 1990s he sold his beloved Great Building Crackup, saying that, =20 =93because of cyberspace, real estate is dead now.=94 A few years later = he =20 got rid of his television set and began to get all his news from =20 alternative sources on the Internet. In 1997, he moved to Houston, =20 Texas and began work on The Great CyberBuilding Crack-Up on Appaloosa =20= Acres, which he called =93a Virtual Reality architectural = improvisation.=94 Despite his love of collaboration, Brown always took his cues not from =20= art history but from comedians, scientists, and history=92s ne=92er do =20= wells, and this failure to conform made him a natural for the Do-It-=20 Yourself movement and difficult for gallerists to deal with, even =20 after his three decade liberation from alcohol addiction. In the early =20= 1980s, Brown was briefly associated with the Phyllis Kind Gallery in =20 Chicago and Soho and he has enjoyed continued support from Archivio =20 Francesco Conz in Verona, Italy. However, since the early 1990s, the =20 early entrant to cyberspace had done much of his work online via the =20 =93Church=94 website, Funkup.com, a twisted acronym of the First = National =20 Church of the Exquisite Panic, Inc. His physical collaboration of choice the past few years, during the =20 period in which he sold and moved out of the Great Building Crackup in =20= favor of brief sojourns between New York and San Francisco, Houston =20 and most recently Wilmington, is the =93Collaborative Action Gluing=94 =20= where by email and telephone, he arranges for a space and a =20 participative audience of non-artists. This can be in another city or =20= another country, at a gallery, nightclub or school. He then showed up, =20= armed with glue, scissors, rubber gloves, colored paper, magazines to =20= cut up and several canvases for the participants to embellish =20 collectively with their unschooled musings, each eventually =20 transformed from a day-glo tabula rasa into a vibrant, swirling =20 testimony to the power of joint action by non-artists, yet at the same =20= time, surprisingly reminiscent of the likes of Miro, Kandinsky and of =20= course, Matisse=92s cutouts. In 2008, Robert Delford Brown was the subject of his first major =20 Museum show at the Cameron Art Museum, Robert Delford Brown: Meat, =20 Maps and Militant Metaphysics, where director Deborah Velders and I =20 put together an exhibition of over one hundred of his works that =20 spanned from the 1950s to the present. "He was intense about his art, =20= and he was intense about the world. He was intense about life," =20 Velders told a local reporter about Brown when word that his huge, =20 hearty and memorable laugh would no longer be heard around =20 Wilmington=92s shocked but vibrant art community. Brown=92s work appeared in hundreds of exhibitions and publications over = =20 the years. He is represented in the collections of (partial list): The =20= Museum of Modern Art, New York City; Smithsonian Institution, =20 Washington D.C.; Denver Art Museum, Denver, Colorado. He leaves a step-daughter Carol Cone. Mark Bloch is author of Robert Delford Brown: Meat, Maps and Militant =20= Metaphysics, 2008, published by the Cameron Art Museum =3D!=3D Data Visualization for the Synaptically Inspired http://filevillage.info =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 01:37:45 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Auckland bookstores In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Request from a friend who's traveling to New Zealand: any bookstore recommendations for poetry in Auckland? Many thanks, Hugh Behm-Steinberg ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:12:59 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: April 3: Chicago reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable First Friday Poetry Series=20 April 3 at 7:30pm=20 St. Paul=E2=80=99s Cultural Center 2215 W. North Avenue Chicago, IL Daniel Godston Elizabeth Harper Jennifer Karmin Larry Sawyer free admission / donation requested west of the Damen stop on the CTA blue line street parking available=20 Elizabeth Harper lives in Chicago and has been reading her poems in bars (a= nd coffeehouses and rock clubs and art galleries and churches and other pla= ces of direpute) for several years. She is a member of PolyRhythmic: A Chic= ago Arts Collective, which hosts a late-nite open mic night on Tuesdays. Sh= e participated in the Chicago Calling Arts Festival in 2006, 2007, and 2008= . In April 2008, she participated in Poetry Bomb by reading poetry at the t= op of her lungs in front of Chicago's Water Tower and probably will again t= his year. Her two books of poetry are Love Songs from Psychopaths and Fairy= Tales Gone Awry. Daniel Godston teaches and lives in Chicago. His writings have appeared in = Chase Park, After Hours, Versal, Drunken Boat, 580 Split, Kyoto Journal, Er= atica, The Smoking Poet, Horse Less Review, and other print publications an= d online journals. He also composes and performs music, and he works with t= he Borderbend Arts Collective to organize the annual Chicago Calling Arts F= estival.=20 Jennifer Karmin's text-sound epic, Aaaaaaaaaaalice, will be published by Fl= im Forum Press in 2009. She curates the Red Rover Series and is co-founder = of the public art group Anti Gravity Surprise. Her multidisciplinary projec= ts have been presented nationally at festivals, artist-run spaces, and on c= ity streets. Karmin teaches creative writing to immigrants at Truman Colleg= e and works as a Poet-in-Residence for the Chicago Public Schools. New poem= s are published in Cannot Exist, MoonLit, Otoliths, Come Together: Imagine = Peace (Bottom Dog Press) and Not A Muse (Haven Books). Larry Sawyer curates the Myopic Books reading series in Wicker Park, Chicag= o. Chapbooks include Poems for Peace (Structum Press), A Chaise Lounge in H= ell (aboveground press), Tyrannosaurus Ant (mother's milk press), which was= recently included in the Yale Collection of American Literature, and Disha= rmonium (Silver Wonder Press). His work was also recently included in The C= ity Visible: Chicago Poetry for the New Century (Cracked Slab Books) and A = Writers=E2=80=99 Congress: Chicago Poets on Barack Obama=E2=80=99s Inaugura= tion (DePaul Humanities Center Press). Larry edits www.milkmag.org.=20 =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 02:14:00 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "steve d. dalachinsky" Subject: Re: [edliberation] request for help--seeking bookstores (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mcnally robinson st marks books 192 books mercer st book printed matter unnammable books to name a few On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:51:47 -1000 Gabrielle Welford writes: > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:35:03 -0400 > From: Tara Mack > > I am trying to find progressive, independent bookstores from > anywhere in > the country that cater to teachers, such as Bank Street Bookstore in > New > York and Busboys and Poets in DC. I want to find out if these > bookstores > might be interested in carrying Planning to Change the World, the > social > justice lesson plan book that the network co-publishes with the New > York > Collective of Radical Educators. > > If you can send me the name and location of your favorite bookstore, > I > would be much obliged. > > Thanks so much for your help! > > Tara > > Tara Mack, Director > Education for Liberation Network > http://www.edliberation.org/ > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 18:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics In-Reply-To: <5fc9b3260903261200u10467172k358aaa39f0d5ad4a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, So pataphysics is the anti-matter of writing, as you have said in many occasions, "the purloined writing." Then, pataphysicis becomes a zero writing, undermining constantly its own authority, declaring its "helplessness." Here is a version of pataphysics perhaps: My friend Sabri And I always talk In the street at night And always drunk. He always says, "I'm late for home," And always two loaves Of bread under his arm. (Orhan Veli, "the hopelessly obscure or obscene and overlooked author") Bird and Cloud Birdman! We have a bird A tree Give me a nickel's Worth of clouds. To Keep Busy The beautiful women thought The love poems I wrote Were about them, And I always suffered Knowing that I wrote them To keep busy. Two weeks ago I was watching Herzog's *Encounters at the End of the World*, his documentary about the South Pole. The film ends, or almost ends, by a South Pole scientist's monologue about his frustrations with seeing neutrinos, "billions, many billions of which run through his nose every second," while preparing to send a heliom balloon into the stratosphere to hoping capture one of these neutrinos an instant in a flash light "about te= n meters long." Maybe, the pataphysicist as a neutrino chaser... after a drea= m of strings. Ciao, Murat On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Patrick Lovelace < patrick.lovelace@gmail.com> wrote: > How could something 'not' be 'pataphysical? even something that wasn't? > > PL > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:10 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot < > davidbchirot@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > _ > > > > note: the word "pataphysics" and its being studied can be found in the > > Beatles' song "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first "official" introduction of > > 'Pataphysics to the North American audience/readers may (or not) be see= n > as > > Evergreen Review Issue 13, May/June 1960, with a spiral and the words > > "What is 'Pataphysics" suspended in the =93equivalent=94 of a foto dipp= ed > > in green (=93evergreen=94) of Jarry aboard one of his personal manias,= his > > beloved bicycle, heading down the street, > > away from the camera, into that Futurity which the present is the > > =93becoming memory=94 of. > > > > > > > > Following an Intro by Roger Shattuck, there's an excellent selections o= f > > works > > from Alphonse Allais, Leon-Paul Fargue, Torma, Rene Clair, Rene Dumal a= nd > > Felix > > Feneon (a friend of Jarry's) to the then contemporary "Satraps" of the > > French > > College du 'Pataphysique" such as Vian, Butor, Queneau, Ionesco,. > > > > > > > > A year later, reflecting on this event and its effects in North America= , > > Asger > > Jorn, the Danish artist, ground breaking investigator of Scandinavian > arts > > and > > for some years Situationist, penned a piece for =93Internationale > > Situationniste=94 > > No. 6, August 1961 called =94Pataphysics=97A Religion in the Making.=94 > > > > http://infopool.org.uk/6104.html > > > > > > > > Jorn writes: > > > > It is only recently that > > the religious content of Pataphysics has become apparent. Prior to this > > development, Jarry's invention remained largely unknown beyond the smal= l > > circle > > who published the esoteric Cahiers du College de Pataphysique. But all > this > > changed when a special Pataphysical number of the Evergreen Review was > > published in New York. > > > > > > > > Although > > the Americans have now claimed the honour of presenting Pataphysics to > the > > world, they didn't dare mention the word religion in their journal. > > Nevertheless, the enormous success Pataphysics enjoyed last year among > the > > New World intelligentsia has inaugurated an epoch in > > which the essentially religious nature of this phenomena will be > carefully > > analysed > > > > > > > > Recently re-reading some of Jarry=92s essays and fictions re > > =91Pataphyisics, two things really struck me. > > One is that Jarry=92s =91Pataphysical compilations, Almanachs, woodcuts= , all > > owe a great deal to the medieval period, and specifically to the spirit > of > > Rabelais and Villon. In Rabelais, there is the mocking of both science > and > > religion which go on unabated, as well as the production of a ceaseless= ly > > teeming, transmuting and truly =93exceptional=94 cosmos, in which the s= izes > and > > shapes of everything are subject to immense and swift adjustments to > indeed > > =93Situations.=94 Rabelais spoofs and distorts and disgorges the scient= ific > and > > religious languages of his time, a crazy quilt =93polygut=94 of half di= gested > > Latin > > and the wildly free and raucous French of the times, itself at the > > thresholds > > of the strangling codifications soon eno9ugh to appear. > > > > And in Rabelais, > > as in Jarry=97let us not forget the =93exceptional=94 role that Flatule= nce > > plays!! The =93inflation =93 of language is > > measured along side its accompaniment, that inflating of the human bowe= ls > > which > > results in the production of an inflation with finds its mode of > expression > > via an orifice of the human anatomy > > which seeks to equal that of the mouth in volume and expressiveness. > > > > There are also, > > as in Villon, the predilection for the machines and images of execution= s, > > with > > Jarry sharing Villon=92s words almost exactly apropos hanging, and addi= ng > > himself > > the modern Guillotine to the scenes of the functions of separating the > body > > from the head from which it itself is seen as =93hanging from=94 previo= us to > > their > > union being rent asunder. > > > > There is also > > the example of Flaubert=92s Bouvard et Pecuchet, which presents the > > adventures of > > two copy-clerks who, unlike Bartleby the Scrivener, are able due to an > > inheritance to leave their desk and purchase an immense country estate, > > which > > wins them no welcome from the local inhabitants. These two former > copiers > > set about exploring > > the branches of knowledge which compose the arts and sciences, and in > > almost > > every case run aground on the beaches of their own persistent ignorance= . > > > > On their way to > > this pessimistic view of the acquisition and accumulation of knowledge, > the > > duo > > decide to turn their heads and hands instead to compiling a =93Dictiona= ry > of > > Received Ideas,=94 collecting al the stupid quotes manifesting the > > =93unexceptional=94: (in Jarry=92s terms) presented as something =93exc= eptional,=94 > > which > > provide insights in to the questions of all facets of life These > =93received > > ideas,=94 unquestioned and in a > > sense almost invisible until compiled as an actual =93set=94 within gen= res > and > > categories of thought and language, > > create a form of =93anti-Encyclopedia, =93 in which the Encyclopedic > > aspirations of the 18th century are turned on their heads as > > =93fauxk-wisdom,=94 of the kind massively > > generated by the new industrialized media of the =93Age of Progress.=94 > > > > A few decades > > earlier, Baudelaire had written of his hope to produce lines which woul= d > > become > > clich=E9s. The =93true test=94 of the poet=92s > > work would be to vanish into this sea of =93received ideas,=94 which > ironically > > is > > the very environment that would reject the poet=92s =93exceptional=94 l= anguage, > > or, > > perhaps, this vast sea might instead > > engulf the poem in a vast moist embrace in which it would also vanish, > and > > become =93unrecognized=94 because > > =93misunderstood=94 as the only way by which it might attain a paradox= ical > > =93recognition=94 by becoming > > =93unrecognizable=94 due to misunderstandings, and so=97 > > > > > > > > =93Taken for something else,=94 continue a free and camouflaged > > existence, unnoticed, unread, unseen, unknown, by attaching itself to t= he > > =93obvious,=94 and so become =93hidden in plain sight.=94 > > > > > > > > That is, to be read, seen and known as the =93obvious,=94 and so > > =93overlooked,=94 because of course, things in order to be Important, h= ave to > > be > > far more complex than =93That.=94 > > > > > > > > This is the strategy, after all, of the Viceroy butterfly, > > which so resembles a Monarch, that no enemy will attack it; because the > > Monarch > > possesses a poison that kills those who try to eat it, and so acts as a > > =93deterrence=94 > > that the Viceroy copies in terms solely of =93appearance.=94 > > > > > > > > =93Looks can be deceiving,=94 after all, and so =93one person=92s > > meat is another=92s poison,=94 becomes a meat that all comers take to b= e a > > poison > > when it is actually a meat mimicking the costuming of the poisonous one= . > > > > > > > > The equivalence of the poisonous and the non-poisonous both > > appearing as the poisonous, becomes that =91Pataphysical =93exception,= =94 that > > pebble > > in the shoe that grinds and grinds away, destroying the edifice of the > Very > > Important Person whose foot is continually stepping on it, and so becom= es > a > > form of =93resistance=94 which understands full well that clich=E9d phr= ase, > =93the > > Bigger they are, the Harder they Fall.=94 > > > > > > > > Jarry=92s Pere > > Ubu and Dr Faustroll and the vision of =91Pataphysics were born from th= e > > cunning > > of schoolboys satirizing a Physics teacher at their lycee, and turning > > these satires > > and their objects into Theater and the discovery that =93as Metaphysic = is > to > > Physics, so =91Pataphysics is to Metaphysics.=94 > > > > Ubu and =91Pataphysics are born out of a > > satirizing, inverting, and subverting of > > the Institutionalized forms and formulae of =93knowledge=94 which a cit= izen > > bent on > > a =93career=94 is forced to undergo. Where the French College du > =91Pataphysique > > (revived, after a quarter century of dormancy, in 2000) and its recentl= y > > formed > > English rough equivalent, equivalency being at the =93heart of the matt= er,=94 > > differ from the North American =93Pataphysics,=94 is, as Jorn foresees,= its > > being > > turned back into an Institutionalized form and formulae which take on t= he > > rites > > and trappings of a new form of religion. > > > > > > One might then > > observe that the ideas and characters > > born of the immediate =93wreck-creations=94 > > and absurd comedies of the > > classroom, the satires of the > > =93Professor,=94 and of the entire sets of > > Jargons, discourses, that have been erected > > to produce both an elite and a =93common=94 mass=94 of students of the = =93same > > mind,=94 of the > > same mind, that is, regarding the Seriousness of their Placements and > > Advancements within the Structures of Society=92s various Institutions;= one > > might > > observe in this that the originary =93scene=94 of Ubu in opposition to = all of > > these, is turned inside out and becomes again the very site of the > > production > > of a conformity. > > > > > > > > This is the > > situation which Jorn presents: > > > > > > > > =93If Pataphysics had been taught anonymously, and avoided > > criticism, it might have slipped unnoticed into the world. Had this had > > happened, the apparently insoluble problem of Pataphysical authority - > the > > consecration of the inconsecratable - would not have occurred. =93 > > > > > > > > That is, if =91Pataphysics had indeed flown into the world as > > the Viceroy, camouflaged and whose recognition was a form of misreading= , > > misunderstanding and hence =93unrecognizablity,=94 =91Pataphysics would= have > > eluded > > the confrontation with the Authorities of the Institutional > > =93Authorizations,=94 > > who strip away an unrecognized anonymity, a camouflaged misreading > > misunderstood and too obvious to notice, and instead set up in their > > absences > > the presence of their own Authorships. > > > > > > > > This situation which Jorn presents is somewhat similar to > > another one being written of at roughly the same time=97the situation o= f > the > > =93Garden Dwarfs=94 as Hans Richter calls them in his Dada: Art and An= ti > Art. > > The =93Garden dwarfs=94 are the > > neo-Dadas, who in a sense obey the letter but not the spirit of the Law= , > a > > Law > > which did not exist until they had retrospectively =93recognized=94 its > > existence > > and so initiated a trend that in recent years has become the > falsification > > of > > Dada in the US textbooks and Institutions with > > their ensuing cult of Tzara, the least interesting and least Dada of > > them all, who turned promotion of a borrowed name and movement into a o= ne > > man > > show starring himself, and continued on like an animated corpse long > after > > the > > Dadas had all left, finding himself finally > > cornered in the company of the emerging Surrealists=97co-founding with > Andre > > Breton the journal =93Literature,=94 the very anti-thesis of the Hugo > > Ball-named > > =93Dada=94-- with whom he participated in and celebrated Dada=92s =93f= uneral. > > > > > > > > For Richter, Huelsenbeck and other Dadas, the accomplishment > > of Tzara is to eradicate any of the =93Revolutionary=94 and =93street= =94 elements > > in > > Dada, and instead produce a series of literary =93manifestos=94 which l= ead > > straight > > to the heart of the matter for him: =93Literature.=94 > > > > > > > > (As Henry Miller put it in the =93Fourteenth Ward=94 section in > > Black Spring: =93What is not in the open > > street is false, derived that is to say, literature.=94) > > > > > > > > This retrospective revisioning, reformulating and > > re-fashioning of Dada=97and of Neo-Dada and the Garden Dwarfs - in orde= r to > > have > > it conform better to the current situation and narrative of the > poet/artist > > in > > the US, Jorn recognizes also as a crisis > > within =91Pataphysics: > > > > > > > > The great merit of > > pataphysics is to have confirmed that there is no metaphysical > > justification > > for forcing everybody to believe in the same absurdity, possibilities f= or > > the > > absurd and in art are legion. The only logical deduction that can be ma= de > > from > > this principle is the anarchist thesis: to each his own absurdities. Th= e > > negation of this principle is expressed in the legal power of the state= , > > which > > forces all citizens to submit to an identical set of political > absurdities. > > > > > > It must by > > now be apparent that once a Pataphysical authority is accepted, it > becomes > > a > > demagogic weapon against the Pataphysical spirit > > > > The game is the Pataphysical > > overture to the world. The realisation of such games is the creation of > > situations. A crisis therefore exists, caused by the crucial problem > which > > each > > Pataphysical adept must resolve: s/he must apply the situlogic method a= nd > > attack the conditions of the reigning society, or else simply refuse to > do > > anything whatsoever about the situation. It is in the latter resolution > to > > this > > problem that Pataphysics becomes the religion best adapted to life in t= he > > society of the spectacle: a religion of passivity and pure absence > > > > > > > > This > > =93religion of passivity=94 adapted to the life of the society of the > spectacle > > may > > be found today in the latest =93hot topics=94 of the ongoing entropy of= an > > Institutionalized setting, which for Melville=92s Bartleby was to be fo= und > on > > Wall Street, where the Scrivener states his =93I would prefer not to=94 > > continue > > copying, and eventually finds himself in the Tombs, perversely observed > and > > studied by his former employer, a lawyer in the service of the Market. > The > > entropy of a =93case=94 as seemingly > > =93passive=94 as Bartleby's is found in the =93conceptual works=94 whic= h dedicate > > themselves to =93copying, data filing, and > > boredom-,=94 the latter being regarded by artists from Baudelaire to th= e > > Dadas to > > Dubuffet and beyond as the =93enemy of art.=94 Or =93the enemy of exist= ence.=94 > > > > > > > > The religious aspect of boredom Baudelaire called =93Acedie, > > la maladie des moines.=94 > > > > Acedia=97the malady of monks. > > > > > > > > And monks, to be sure, of some denominations, were known to > > be =93copyists,=94 some of whom, anonymously, created some among the mo= st > > beautiful > > Visual Poetry and Book Art known in the West. > > > > > > > > Perhaps the situation of today=92s poets who are dependent on machines > > and others=92 materials to copy or =93flarf,=94or =93pataphysic=94 or = =93Ouliper=94 or > > =93Vizpoize=94 > > or =93avant=94are spurred on by the lashes > > of the command to =93publish or perish.=94 > > > > In Enrique > > Villa-Matas=92 Bartleby and Company, one encounters the opposite of thi= s > need > > and > > desire to =93appear in print,=94 no matter what it is or in what form. = This > > suggests the resurrection of the last > > minute plagiarized paper as a =93radical form of discourse=94 to be exp= lored > in > > terms ethical, aesthetical and pros ethical. Plagiarizing, copying, > filing, > > scanning the unbelievable torrents of spam-- all of it a celebration of > > one=92s > > own =93original=94 unoriginality in =93facing this monster,=94 which is= =97as > > Baudelaire > > put it, the horror of the =91=94gouffre,=94 that immense chasm of bore= dom, > > dullness and nothingness into which > > the author of today may tumble, never to be seen or heard from again, > > returned > > to the anonymity of being =93not published =93or =93out of print.=94 > > > > > > > > This is yet another =93crisis=94 facing the author expected to > > publish, to =93make a name for her/himself and their Institution,=94 or > Group, > > Movement, Brand Name etc=97 > > > > > > > > To at once announce one=92s unoriginality, yet to do so in a > > manner originally unoriginal, from some as yet unplundered source, > inspired > > by > > some previously hopelessly obscure or obscene and overlooked author, an= d > so > > to > > put a stamp on one=92s productions which is said to a once proclaim the > > author > > and to be arguing against the author. > > > > > > > > This desperate need to produce writing, even if it is > > borrowed, stolen, downloaded, copied by hand, purchased on line or fro= m > > the super market of literary products > > and accessories, where the laughter of Il Professore Vidiamodopo may be > > heard > > echoing down the aisles of prominently visible poets whose shining > > presences > > dim even the gaudiest of packaging=92s=97 > > > > > > > > This desperate need to produce=97and yet at the same with the > > least amount of intellectual labor=97that being replaced by the physica= l > > labor of > > the copying filing and being originally unoriginal=97all of it the oppo= site > > of > > the Writing of the No, of Bartleby=92s =93I prefer not to,=94 or the un= written > > non > > writing camouflaged inside the misread and misunderstood=97 > > > > > > > > The terrible fear driving the horses to go =93faster, faster, > > faster=94 as Walt Whitman saw America > > dashing to insanity=97 > > > > > > > > This terrible fear of the non-existence, le Neant, le Gouffre=97 > > > > Can be summed up in a sign found in the battered offices for various > > services of the Health > > and Welfare departments, as well as those were free legal counsel or > > financial > > advice may be given: > > > > > > > > This sign sums it up: > > =93If it is not in writing, it never happened.=94 > > > > > > > > Perhaps =91Pataphysics may propose as an exception the happening > > of something which is unwritten, and so, logically, inferred to be, to > > remain, > > unwritten=97and hence never having happened,--and yet, it has happened-= - > > > > A happening beyond the bounds of the written, in a zone one > > aspect of which Whitman called =93the real war will never get into the > > books.=94 > > > > > > > > In that case, then, one may understand a =91Pataphysical > > writing outside of books, pages, of being written down=97existing as bo= th > > happening and writing simultaneously, and al the while remaining > =93buried,=94 > > hidden from the view of those writings which do get into books. > > > > > > > > Existing as an unseen, unrecognized, unpublished as it were, > > Viceroy, hidden within the gaudy show of the poisonous Monarch, a > harmless > > being concealed inside a killer, an inverse Trojan Horse, an exception = to > > the > > writing that alone produces what happens, because, by not writing, by n= ot > > copying, but simply =93resembling in appearance=94 a form of writing kn= own as > > the > > Monarch, it is happening unread, unrecognized, unwritten, and > > =91Pataphysically > > existing=97 > > > > > > > > And without which there could not be, by its unrecognition, > > its being anonymous, unknown, its being so obvious it is overlooked=97t= here > > could > > not be that author, that authority, that authorization, in whose > > recognition by its =93standing out > > against a background,=94 would be seen > > that presence which is called =93writing.=94 > > An =93evidence of something that happened.=94 > > > > > > > > Even if what happened might be completely fictitious, or an > > outright lie-- > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:33:22 -0500 > > > From: johncunningham366@GMAIL.COM > > > Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > Thanks for that enigmatic response, Catherine. Care to be a little mo= re > > > verbose? > > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On > > > Behalf Of Catherine Daly > > > Sent: March-24-09 11:45 AM > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: Christian Bok and Pataphysics > > > > > > but it is not... > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:00 AM, John Herbert Cunningham > > > wrote: > > > > In his book 'Pataphysics: The Poetics of an Imaginary Science, > > Christian > > > Bok > > > > makes the statement "this survey reflects the influence of Jarry up= on > > my > > > own > > > > poetic career (in particular, my 'pataphysical encyclopedia, > > > > Crystallography)." To my knowledge, this is the only North American > > book > > > > that specifically claims to be or would be considered a 'pataphysic= al > > > work. > > > > Any comments? > > > > > > > > John Herbert Cunningham > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > All best, > > > Catherine Daly > > > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines > > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > > guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.htm= l > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for > Hotmail=AE. > > > > > http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=3DTXT_= MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines > > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelin= es > & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 00:31:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Corey Frost Subject: April 3rd at the CUNY Grad Center: Poems for the Millennium 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed April 3rd JEROME ROTHENBERG and JEFFREY ROBINSON, with MARY ANN CAWS, MAUREEN =20 McLANE, and RICHARD SIEBURTH The CUNY Graduatte Center Poetics Group is very excited to announce =20 that the editors of Poems for the Millennium Volume Three: The =20 University of California Book of Romantic & Postromantic Poetry will =20 be with us to read from and discuss their new anthology. Like its two =20= twentieth-century predecessors, Poems for the Millennium, volumes 1 =20 and 2, this gathering sets forth a globally decentered approach to =20 the poetry of the preceding century from a radically experimental and =20= visionary perspective. The range of volume three and its skewing of =20 the traditional canon illuminate the process by which romantics and =20 post-romantics challenged nineteenth-century orthodoxies and =20 propelled poetry to the experiments of a later modernism and avant-=20 gardism. Joining Jerome Rothenberg and Jeffrey C. Robinson in the =20 open discussion that follows the reading are three distinguished =20 scholars and translators, Mary Ann Caws, Maureen McLane, and Richard =20 Sieburth. =93Rothenberg and Robinson have dedicated this project to an =20= intensification and expansion of the vital and vivacious contexts of =20 the ongoing project of human thought. They present us not with the =20 fixity of a canon but with the unfixity of our world.=94 =97 Lyn = Hejinian Friday, April 3, 2:00 pm, in Room 9207. CUNY Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue, New York. opencuny.org/poetics= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 12:12:39 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Samuel Menashe Reading in NYC April 4th at 2PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Samuel Menashe (one of our great living poets, and the inaugural winner of = the Poetry Foundation's Neglected Masters Award, and the first living perso= n to have a book of his work done by the Library of America-contrary to wha= t the NY Times, caught in its echo chamber, says repeatedly in assigning th= at honor to John Ashbery) is reading on April 4th at 2PM at the East 96th = Street Public Library in Manhattan. Admission is free. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 15:56:50 -1000 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: tinfish editor's blog for this week (or so) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit # "You'll go down if you don't stand up for yourself... # Sarith Peou cited in HARPER'S magazine # Lisa Linn Kanae, _Islands Linked by Ocean_ (Bamboo... # Kaia Sand, Jules Boykoff & Guerrilla Poetries Enjoy. Susan M. Schultz Edit Girl, Tinfish Press ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 04:29:12 -0700 Reply-To: afieled@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Adam Fieled Subject: PFS Post: Cara Benson and harrykstammer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out some solid stuff from harrykstammer and Cara Benson on PFS Post: =A0 http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com =A0 =A0 =A0 "Chimes" is here: http://www.blazevox.org/bk-af.htm =A0 "Chimes" is on Pennsound: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/x/Fieled.php =0A=0A=0A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:28:22 +0200 Reply-To: argotist@fsmail.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Responses so far to Heaney Jacket article Comments: To: British Poetics , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Responses from: Ira Lightman, John Muckle, J.P. Craig, Jamie McKendrick, David Latan=C3=A9 and Aidan Semmens. http://jacketmagazine.com/37/heaney-side.shtml Please send more. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:48:30 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Kyle Schlesinger Subject: TWO POEMS by MAX JACOB & LARRY FAGIN Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit TWO POEMS MAX JACOB & LARRY FAGIN portraits JUAN GRIS & GEORGE SCHNEEMAN Typeset in Jan Tschichold's Sabon, printed letterpress on Zerkall Ingres paper and signed by Fagin. $10 (includes S&H) Details at: http://cuneiformpress.blogspot.com/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:42:35 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo Newsletter 03.30.09-04.05.09 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 LITERARY BUFFALO 03.30.09-04.05.09 BABEL ANNOUNCEMENT IMMINENT=21 We have just completed the schedule for the 2009-2010 Babel season at Klein= hans Music Hall. Next season's readers will be announced at the Marjane Sat= rapi event on Wednesday and subscriptions will go on sale Thursday. Visit o= ur website at http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel on Wednesday after 9 p.m. to= preview next year's exciting lineup=21 Click http://www.justbuffalo.org/babel for tickets to Isabel Allende. Or ca= ll 832.5400 for group, teacher and student pricing and purchase. __________________________________________________________________________= WRITER CRITIQUE GROUP The member writer critiqiue group is back on a new night=21 1st and 3rd Tue= sdays at the Market Arcade. Click here to download info .pdf: http://www.justbuffalo.org/media/pdf/CritiqueGroup0409.pdf __________________________________________________________________________= EVENTS THIS WEEK Visit the Literary Buffalo calendar at www.justbuffalo.org for more detaile= d info on these events. All events free and open to the public unless other= wise noted. 03.30.09 Poetics Plus at UB Kit Robinson Poetry Reading Monday, March 30, 8 PM Karpeles Manuscript Museum, 453 Porter Ave. 04.01.09 Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State College Joe Sutliff Sanders Graphic Novelist Presentation Wednesday, April 1, 4:30 PM E.H. Butler Library, Room 210 Just Buffalo/Center For Inquiry Literary Caf=C7 Verneice Turner and Laura Giglia Poetry Reading (8 open slots for readers) Wednesday, April 1, 7:30 PM Center for Inquiry, 1310 Sweet Home Rd., Amherst Just Buffalo/Babel Marjane Satrapi, author of Persepolis Lecture: Sold Out Wednesday, April 1, 8:00 PM Babeville, 341 Delaware Ave (=40Tupper) 04.02.09 Erie Community College Thea Halo Reading/Signing: Not Even My Name Thursday, April 2, 12:15 PM Erie Community College, City Campus Auditorium SUNY Buffalo Thea Halo Reading/Signing: Not Even My Name Thursday, April 2, 5 PM 538 Clemens Hall, UB North Campus Poetics Plus at UB Poet's Theater with Kevin Killian Dramatic Performance of Poet's Plays Thursday, April 2, 7:00 PM New Burchfield Penney,1300 Elmwood Avenue 04.03.09 Central Library Thea Halo Reading/Signing: Not Even My Name Friday, April 3, 12 PM Central Library, 1 Lafayette Sq. Babel EXTRAS South American Night Food, Music, Culture: Celebration of Isabel Allende Friday, April 3, 6:30 PM International Institute of Buffalo, 864 Delaware Location was listed incorrectly on the poster ? please note=21 04.04.09 Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Performance Series In Full Swing Poetry and Swing Music w/Clarence Lott Sextet Saturday, April 4, 8:00 PM Colored Musicians Club, 145 Broadway Hellenic Orthodox Church of the Annunication Thea Halo Reading/Signing: Not Even My Name Saturday, April 4, 8 PM Hellenic Orthodox Church of the Annunication, 146 W. Utica 04.05.09 Buffalo/Williamsville Poetry, Music, Dance & Art Celbration Lucille Clifton plus student, composers, poets, musicians, artists and danc= ers. Sunday, April 5, 7 p.m. Kleinhans Music Hall, Symphony Circle, Buffalo ___________________________________________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will i= mmediately be removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 12:55:25 -0400 Reply-To: mtcross@buffalo.edu Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Michael T Cross Subject: In Felt Treeling / Names of the Lion Launch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All: If you live in the NYC area, please join us for some fun events over the ne= xt few days. I'll be launching my new Chax book, In Felt Treeling, at the P= oetry=20 Project this evening (Monday, March 30th) at 8pm, reading with the ever cap= tivating David Buuck. And tomorrow night (Tuesday, March 31st) we'll be=20 celebrating Atticus/Finch as part of the D.A. Levy Lives series at ACA Gall= eries, featuring readings by Kyle Schlesinger, Thom Donovan, Julian Brolask= i, and=20 David Larsen (launching his new A/F book, Names of the Lion). The reading s= tarts at 6 pm at 529 W. 20th (5th floor). Hope to see any and all there! Love=20 Michael =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:05:28 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "K. R. Waldrop" Subject: Book of Collages by Keith Waldrop Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Siglio is pleased to announce the publication of SEVERAL GRAVITIES by Keith Waldrop edited with an essay by Robert Seydel SEVERAL GRAVITIES For nearly four decades, Keith Waldrop has been creating a body of visual art that---while mirroring his extraordinary and internationally acclaimed oeuvre of poetry, fiction and translation--- has lived largely outside the public eye. SEVERAL GRAVITIES, this first collection of Waldrop's radiant visual collages not only reveals an essential facet of his extraordinary oeuvre, but also summons a mesmerizing world in which the invisible and the absent are roused and rise to the surface. Like his collage poems, the images are enveloped in ghosted impressions, quiet tensions, strands of memory and fragments of dream. SEVERAL GRAVITIES (casebound, 112 pages, color illus. $39.50) features a substantial selection of collages as well as a new unpublished serial poem and an essay by Waldrop that enunciates the relationship between his distinctive visual and poetic practices. Editor Robert Seydel contributes an incisive essay on Waldrop's work---its expression of the poet-artist "tradition," and its expansion of the collage form. For a slide show of images and more about the book, go to SEVERAL GRAVITIES. KEITH WALDROP is the author of over two dozen works of poetry and prose, an eminent translator, and with wife Rosmarie the founding editor of the influential and innovative Burning Deck Press. Publishers Weekly has said: "Waldrop, not as well-known as he should be, is among the most important writers, translators, and publishers of avant-garde literature in our time." See KEITH WALDROP'S BIOGRAPHY. ORDER NOW: PRE-PUBLICATION DISCOUNT 25% OFF UNTIL APRIL 22 Use code WALDROP when ordering at siglio. If you prefer to phone in your order, call 310-857-6935. If your book is shipping overseas, email Siglio first at bookorders@sigliopress.com in order to get the best shipping price. LIMITED EDITION A signed and numbered limited edition of 30 includes an original, miniature collage from Keith Waldrop's series "Metro Tickets." $100. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:37:13 +1300 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Auckland bookstores In-Reply-To: <819569.32264.qm@web36501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Parsons bookstore, Wellesley St East. It's primarily an art book store but has the best selection of NZ poetry, next best is Unity Books on High S= t. Both are downtown locations. Wystan ________________________________________ From: Poetics List (UPenn, UB) [POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of = Hugh Behm-Steinberg [hughsteinberg@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2009 9:37 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Auckland bookstores Hi, Request from a friend who's traveling to New Zealand: any bookstore recomme= ndations for poetry in Auckland? Many thanks, Hugh Behm-Steinberg =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines= & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:47:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q?Ana_Bo=BEi=E8evi=E6?= Subject: This week at the CUNY Grad Center: poetry in translation, MFA reading & Rothenberg/Robinson! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Translation and Literary Selfhood JONATHAN GALASSI, EDITH GROSSMAN, MARILYN HACKER, RIKA LESSER, ROSANNA WARR= EN March 31st 2009, Tuesday, 6:30 pm - 8:00 pm, The Skylight Room (9100) Poet and translator Rosanna Warren, author of Fables of the Self, hosts four master translators reflecting upon the alchemy of voice, style, and literary selfhood in the art of translation. Participants include Jonathan Galassi (Eugenio Montale), Edith Grossman (Mario Vargas Llosa), Marilyn Hacker (V=E9nus Khoury-Ghata), and Rika Lesser (Rainer Maria Rilke). The audience will be invited to join the discussion. ~ Turnstyle Reading Series MARK MIRSKY, MAC WELLMAN and others Writers from the Master of Fine Arts Programs in Creative Writing at CUNY April 1st 2009, Wednesday, 6:30 pm - 8:30 pm, Martin E. Segal Theatre Writers and graduating students from the four MFA Programs in Creative Writing (City College, Brooklyn College, Hunter College, and Queens College) come together for readings of poetry, fiction, and nonfiction at the Graduate Center. Join faculty readers Mark Mirsky and Mac Wellman and MFA readers Anna Marrian, Kerry Carnahan, Diana Redman, Tejas Desai, Michelle Brule, Wythe Marschall, JP Howard and Laurel Kallen for an evening of cross-campus, cross-genre readings. For video and more visit the Turnstyle blog. Co-sponsored by the CUNY MFA in Creative Writing Affiliation Group and the Office of Academic Affairs ~ JEROME ROTHENBERG & JEFFREY ROBINSON with MARY ANN CAWS, MAUREEN McLANE, and RICHARD SIEBURTH April 3rd 2009, Friday, 2:00 pm - 3:30 pm, Room 9207 Editors of Poems for the Millennium Volume Three: The University of California Book of Romantic & Postromantic Poetry read from and discuss the new anthology. =93Rothenberg and Robinson have dedicated this project to an intensification and expansion of the vital and vivacious contexts of the ongoing project of human thought. They present us not with the fixity of a canon but with the unfixity of our world.=94 =97 Lyn Hejinian Co-sponsored by the Graduate Center Poetics Group All events take place at the CUNY Graduate Center, 365 Fifth Avenue and 34th St, and are FREE and OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. For more visit http://centerforthehumanitiesgc.org! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:30:41 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: A critique of Seamus Heaney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable _______________ Jacket Magazine (on-line Issue Number 37) have published a very thought-provoking critique by Jeffrey Side ... "The Dissembling Poet: Seamus Heaney and the Avant-garde." Go to ... http://jacketmagazine.com/37/heaney-side.shtml Also, I would recommend the chapbook "Slimvol" by Jeffrey Side, a sequence of 12 poems published by the cPress in Puhos, Finland. Go to ... http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/slimvol/2337325 Best regards, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 04:46:00 -0800 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Obododimma Oha Subject: Embodying the aesthetics of soccer & nationalism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Embodying the aesthetics of soccer and nationalism ..... http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/photo.day.php?ID=138755 --Obododimma. -- Obododimma Oha Senior Lecturer in Stylistics & Semiotics Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:42:52 +0200 Reply-To: argotist@fsmail.net Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Two more responses to Jacket Heaney debate Comments: To: British Poetics , Poetryetc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are two more responses: McKendrick again http://jacketmagazine.com/37/heaney-letter-mckendrick2.shtml Desmond Sward http://jacketmagazine.com/37/heaney-letter-swords.shtml Keep them coming in, but no bad language--and if you do make accusations, like Sward has, please back them up with citations or references. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: OU LI PO in NYC dinner banquet 4/3/2009 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OU LI PO IN NEW YORK A WORKSHOP OF EXPERIMENTAL LITERATURE APRIL 1-4 = 2009 WITH MARCEL B=C9NABOU, ANNE F. GARR=C9TA, HERV=C9 LE TELLIER, = HARRY MATHEWS, IAN MONK AND JACQUES ROUBAUD =20 Join Drunken Boat to celebrate the occasion and join the OULIPIENS =20 at MY MOON NY http://www.mymoonnyc.com/ =20 184 north 10th St. =20 Brooklyn, NY 11211=20 (718) 599-7007 =20 On Friday April 3, =9109 9:15 - 11:30 pm=20 $75 per seat plus any desired donation to Drunken Boat. All = contributions are tax-deductible. Includes three course meal and 1.25 = glasses of wine; additional wine charges may be incurred by table. = Seating is limited. Write for details and to book a place: = editor@drunkenboat.com =20 ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Associate Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:11:33 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: SubText: Danny SNELSON & Christopher DeLAURENTI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 April 1st=2C 7:30pm =20 http://subtextreadingseries.blogspot.com/ =20 n =20 =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________ Quick access to Windows Live and your favorite MSN content with Internet Ex= plorer 8. http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx?ocid=3DB037= MSN55C0701A= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:10:56 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Tim Peterson Subject: FINAL FOUR POETRY: SILLIMAN VS. JARNOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A New Season of the Segue Reading Series *Starts this Week, Featuring:* *Ron Silliman and Lisa Jarnot* Saturday, April 4, 2009 ** 4PM SHARP** at the Bowery Poetry Club (308 Bowery, just north of Houston) $6 admission goes to support the readers hosted by Kristen Gallagher & Tim Peterson *Ron Silliman* has written and edited over 30 books to date. Silliman was the 2006 Poet Laureate of the Blogosphere, a 2003 Literary Fellow of the National Endowment for the Arts and was a 2002 Fellow of the Pennsylvania Arts Council as well as a Pew Fellow in the Arts in 1998. He lives in Chester County, Pennsylvania, with his wife and two sons. *Lisa Jarnot* is the author of four collections of poetry, including the recently published Night Scenes from Flood Editions. She lives in Queens and works as a landscape gardener. ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 20:58:52 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Laura Hinton Subject: SOP DOLL! A Jack Tale Noh -- poet's theater performance in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Live At The Gershwin Presents:* *SOP DOLL! A Jack Tale Noh* Sop Doll! is an spooky Appalachian tale of witches, ghosts, and shape shifting wildcats, told in the style of Japanese ritualistic Noh drama. Special guests will be on hand to perform a hair-raising spectacle! Tuesday, March 31st 8pm Cover $10 http://www.gershwinhotel.com/ 27th St between Madison Ave & 5th Avenue http://www.gershwinhotel.com/english/site1.html Copies of the play just published by Mermaid Tenement Press will be available! *http://www.mermaidtenementpress.com/* Tony Torn is an actor and director based in New York City and Marshall, North Carolina. He was a founding member of Reza Abdoh=92s legendary theat= er company dar a luz, a regular presence at Richard Foreman's Ontological-Hysteric Theater and was a founding director of the celebrated political/satirical troupe Reverend Billy and The Church of Stop Shopping. He most recently appeared as Trinculo in CSC's production of The Tempest. His first feature as director Lucky Days, a directorial collaboration with Angelica Torn, was recently awarded best feature at the 2008 Coney Island Film Festival. He is founder, with his wife Lee Ann Brown, of The FBI (French Broad Institute of Time and the River). Lee Ann Brown was born in Japan in 1963 and was raised in Charlotte, NC. She is the author of two collections of poetry, The Sleep that Changed Everything (Wesleyan University Press, 2003), and Polyverse (Sun and Moon, 1999) which received the New American Poetry Series Award ), and a song cycle, The 13th Sunday in Ordinary Time. She is editor of Tender Buttons Press, publishing experimental women=92s poetry since 1989. Her poetry has been published in numerous journals including Boston Review, Jacket, The Chicago Review, Intervalles, the Interdisciplinary Transcription Issue and The Poetry Project Newsletter and in several anthologies, including Line: = A Drawing Center Anthology, Best American Poetry 2001, Giant Step: African American Writing at the Crossroads of the Century, and The Garden Thrives: Twentieth Century African-American Poetry. She teaches in the English Department of St. John=92s University in New York City. Poet Robin Blaser calls, her second book, The Sleep That Changed Everything =93"an astonishin= g, wonderful book, top-of-the-line poetry=85. Her =91life long love of languag= e=92 breathes here"=94 and Charles Bernstein calls it "a =93sprung formalist ode= to the =91open possibilities=92 of song." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Joshua Kotin Subject: J.H. Prynne & Keston Sutherland in Chicago Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm pleased to announce the following three events in Chicago: *** April 14 *** J.H. Prynne will be delivering a lecture entitled "Mental Ears and Poetic Work." The lecture begins at 5 PM in Social Sciences 122 at the University of Chicago. *** April 15 *** William Fuller, J.H. Prynne, & Keston Sutherland will read their poems. The reading begins at 5 pm at the Joan Flasch Artists' Books Collection, 37 S. Wabash Ave, 5th floor. *** April 16 *** J.H. Prynne & Keston Sutherland will read their poems. The reading begins at 5 PM in Social Sciences 122 at the University of Chicago. * * * * * * For more information about the U of C events, please visit, http://poetics.uchicago.edu/events.html . Details and event-specific announcements to follow, but mark your calendars now! All events are free. * * * Joshua Kotin jkotin@uchicago.edu ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: poet_in_hell@yahoo.com Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: steve russell Subject: Re: [edliberation] request for help--seeking bookstores (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20090328.021401.2608.4.skyplums@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aside from Busboys & poets, google Politics & Prose, another excellent D.C. bookstore. In fact, it's more of a bookstore than Busboys/poets. I'd send you the address but I'm about to be signed off of the library computer. --- On Sat, 3/28/09, steve d. dalachinsky wrote: From: steve d. dalachinsky Subject: Re: [edliberation] request for help--seeking bookstores (fwd) To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, March 28, 2009, 2:14 AM mcnally robinson st marks books 192 books mercer st book printed matter unnammable books to name a few On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 20:51:47 -1000 Gabrielle Welford writes: > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:35:03 -0400 > From: Tara Mack > > I am trying to find progressive, independent bookstores from > anywhere in > the country that cater to teachers, such as Bank Street Bookstore in > New > York and Busboys and Poets in DC. I want to find out if these > bookstores > might be interested in carrying Planning to Change the World, the > social > justice lesson plan book that the network co-publishes with the New > York > Collective of Radical Educators. > > If you can send me the name and location of your favorite bookstore, > I > would be much obliged. > > Thanks so much for your help! > > Tara > > Tara Mack, Director > Education for Liberation Network > http://www.edliberation.org/ > > ================================== > The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check > guidelines & sub/unsub info: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 10:41:03 -0700 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: amy king Subject: Good stuff this month -- View, savor, & vote! Comments: To: "ViewsNewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii So I ended up with seven finalists instead of the usual five. http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/124830-please-vote-for-april-s-goodreads-poem-top-finalists Thanks to all who came, who saw, who posted! Cheers, Amy _______ Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:37:09 +0200 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Philip Meersman Subject: Poetry of Philip Meersman @ the Canadian National Poetry Month Poems on NationalPoetryMonth.ca Comments: To: cultancy@gmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey you all, friends, poets, loved ones, I'm very proud to say that my visual poem "Doel 3" (written for the Doeldichter contest) was accepted for publication in Canada on the website www.NationalPoetryMonth.ca You can read "Doel 3" on April 20th the web. But do not wait for that: a poem a day keeps the sadness away! Have fun reading through the whole month of April! A huge hug and hope to read/hear/see you soon. Philip ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Amanda Earl Date: Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 7:57 PM Subject: National Poetry Month Poem Acceptance To: kiki.folle@gmail.com hi all, below is the order in which you will appear on NationalPoetryMonth.ca , starting on April 1. thanks so much for sending your poems to AngelHousePress. on March 31, i'm going to be making an announcement to the UBuffaloPoetics list, the Smallpressers Yahoo Group, rob mclennan's list an= d the AngelHousePress Facebook group. Please pass on the link to other groups= , friends, families, groupies, etc. Thanks for celebrating National Poetry Month with AngelHousePress. 1. Elizabeth Kate Switaj - Passage 2. Camille Martin - katrina, tundra 3. Emily Falvey - Envy 4. Colin Herd - after i 5. Gil McElroy - Many Bits of Order 6. Marcus McCann - Loaded-ness 7. Kane X. faucher - Untouch 8. Frances Raven - Leveling 9. Ben Ladouceur - Bayshore 10. Joel Lipman - Untitled [Golden Ink] 11. Sheila E. Murphy - Stop Keeping Things (All to Yourself) 12. Sandra Ridley - Untether : Unhinge 13. Christine McNair - so be it 14. Jamie Bradley - Epithalamion no. 1 / Epithalamion no. 2 15. Paul E. Nelson - Poet's Obligation 16. John M. Bennett - Lood Breath 17. Roland Prevost - how the halogen grins 18. Nicholas Power - From the Window of the Heart of Amsterdam Hotel 19. John Gillies - morning mantra 20. Philip Meersman - Doel 3 21. Patrick Edwards-Daugherty - Austin 22. Pearl Pirie - late and later 23. Margaret Malloch Zielinski - A Lesson in Edible Plants 24. Caleb JW Brasset - The green mountain 25. Cameron Anstee - Self Portrait as my Father's Books 26. Joseph Kuchar - On Coffee and Erf(x) 27. Sean Moreland - Thin Things, Prettily Dishevelled 28. rob mclennan - love is an impossible narrative 29. Todd Swift - April, April! 30. Peter Ciccariello - g, dying, center stage Amanda Earl AngelHousePress www.angelhousepress.com the angel is in the house --=20 Philip Meersman A. Lynenstraat 25 bus 3 1210 St-Joost-ten-Noode Belgium tel+32 (0)476 576 287 www.myspace.com/spooninmybrain http://www.poetasdelmundo.com/verInfo_europa.asp?ID=3D4337 http://www.youtube.com/spooninmybrain skype: Spooninmybrain philip.meersman@gmail.com 06/03/09: Foire du Livre, Turn & Taxi, BXL (http://www.flb.be/) 11/03/09: 2e BruSlam, 20.00 uur, De Monk, BXL (bruslam.over-blog.com) 11/04/09: 3e BruSlam, 20.00 uur, De Monk, BXL (bruslam.over-blog.com) 11/05/09: 4e BruSlam, 20.00 uur, (bruslam.over-blog.com) 22/0509: Kunst in de Luwte, Ninove 22.00 uur 28/05/09-03/06/09: Antares festival, Romania (http://antares.inforapart.ro/= ) 11-16/06/09: Festival and Colloquium "Days and Nights of Literature" Mangalia-Neptun, Romania (www.uniuneascriitorilor.ro) 17/07/09-28/07/09: Ghent in Cap: Het poeziepodium van de Gentse Feesten met workshops, debatten,... 19/08/09-:29/08/09: 2nd Masterclass poezie @ Struga Poetry Evenings ( www.svp.org.mk/) (www.creatiefschrijven.be) 13-15/11/09: Festival Flamme, Amn=E9ville les Thermes, France =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 02:20:09 -0400 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: Amanda Earl Subject: AngelHousePress celebrates National Poetry Month Comments: To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca, smallpressers@yahoogroups.com, meikle@storm.ca, lcpnationalpoetrymonth@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed AngelHousePress presents NationalPoetryMonth.ca, a celebration of the nation of poetry. Each day during the month of April, a new poem will be published on the site. Poetry is a land of risk, play, meditation, provocation and delight. It cannot be contained within borders and should not be restricted by boundaries of any kind. Through the month of April, you will find poems that explore boundaries and break through barriers: narrative, lyrical, visual, sound. The writers of these poems come from the United Kingdom, Europe, Canada and the United States. This is only the first year of an annual project that will include varieties of poetry from all over the world. Ideally the poems will inspire more poetry, will serve to continue the conversation that poetry creates, a conversation that is not limited by time, place, form, age, gender, sexual orientation, political orientation, religion or financial constraints. The site is free and all of the poets have graciously given their poems without payment in any type of currency except your reading pleasure. Please visit www.nationalpoetrymonth.ca each day in April. The League of Canadian Poets celebrates the month with readings across Canada and a daily poetry site: http://lcpnationalpoetrymonth2009.wordpress.com/ Let's celebrate poetry together. Amanda Earl AngelHousePress www.angelhousepress.com the angel is in the house ================================== The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 13:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" Sender: "Poetics List (UPenn, UB)" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?= Subject: With soundings of tree-harps ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable _______________ For sound & photographs of S=E9amas Cain performing in Leif Brush's Forest Terrain Instrument, go to ... http://www.d.umn.edu/~lbrush/lbarchivesf1.html "S=E9amas Cain performs with his multi-string Gusle instrument, while listening to the wind gust murmurs occurring from nearby tree-whistlers and terrestrial-whistlers. Aluminum & copper tubes are hanging at the top." Leif Brush's TELECONSTRUCTS SPACEWORK I, beamed by satellite from a forest in Northern Minnesota to the Hudson River Museum in New York, with S=E9amas Cain as one of the performers, may be found in the Sound Archive of the British Library and the Sound Archive of the Biblioth=E8que nationale de France. With soundings of tree-harps, S=E9amas Cain http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain.writernetwork.com http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _______________ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Poetics List is moderated & does not accept all posts. Check guidelines & sub/unsub info: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html