========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:40:43 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: What is this list for? For Marisa (put that way this is not a personal back-channel msg so evades the tux policers) more you handle Bunting's chisel on a regular basis -- the more useful you get with yr students fr' instance -- something along those lines ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:43:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LAURA MORIARTY Subject: Cole/Moriarty reading For those who are in or will be in the Bay Area June 19th, Norma Cole and I (Laura Moriarty) will be giving a reading in Cole Swensen's new series at the Minna St. Gallery on Minna and Second St. in downtown SF. Time is, I believe, 8PM. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 19:10:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: CagePage Update This internet is mind-boggling. Just as I put out my call for material for my CagePage I, purely by *chance* stumbled across a trove of Cage material, as well as New Music sites. Never think that something hasn't already been done out there on the net--the vastness both numbs & juices the mind. So, I will continue to built my CagePage and again, I ask all of you out there who have written about Cage to email me material so we can build yet another resource, with its own particular slant, whatever that may be. Any material is acceptable--old or new--published or unpublished. Multiplicity and abundance continue to be the guiding principles here. Here's what I found: New Albion Records with a terrific Cage/New Music resource: http://newalbion.com/ The John Cage Mailing List: files & subscription info: http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/ The John Cage Page: A guide to Cageian resources on the Net: http://www.emf.net/~mal/cage.html NewMusNet: New Music forums and resources on the Net: http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www NewMus MusicNet: a tri-quarterly New Music Journal in PDF format: http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www/NewMusNet/nmmn.html#NewMusVols Pauline Oliveros Foundation: http://www.tmn.com/0h/Artswire/www/pof/pof.html Deep Listening Catalog: highly experimental music http://www.tmn.com/Artswire/www/NewMusNet/dlcat.html Jim Rosenberg: our very own! Thanks Jim!: http://www.well.com/user/jer/ These are just jumping off points! Peace, Kenny G ============================================================================= Kenneth Goldsmith kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 21:33:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: name calling Hi Marisa: How 'bout E.E. Cummings? He's kind of "The Great Lost Modernist," having gotten lost somewhere between, say, Pound and Stein, but his work manages to incorporate proto-language tactics (look at that bent syntax!), concrete-visual layouts (most of his poems fit on one page, and, as he referred to himself as a "poet-painter", he worked diligently on their shape) *and* sound-poetry (his transcriptions of New York and Boston tough-guy dialects are quite funny). And when he transcends his upper-class racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia and just plain sentimentality, his astounding lyricism can transport his work to a really deep connection with the earth. Unfortunately, as Jack Foley once told me, "most people get into Cummings when they're 16, and so they leave him behind when they leave their 16-year-old selves behind." Steve Marisa Januzzi writes: ... I'd be curious to hear about >poets people on this list have reconsidered at one point or another, and >why. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 05:27:55 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: jeans vs tux >A note on this is that the current U.S. debate is called (I'm not >making this up) the "jeans vs tux" paradigms of the Intenet. The >former being wild and unrestrained; the latter being formal, >controlled, and regulated. If you think that it's impossible to be wild and unrestrained while wearing a tux, then you've been hanging out with the wrong crowd :-) More seriously, isn't the Internet big enough for both? I mean, places with formal controls (such as a moderated list) should be able to coexist with the "wild and unrestrained" (alt.let.it.all.hang.out). In real life, one can wear a dinner suit to a ball on Saturday night, then wear jeans to brunch on Sunday. Why not on the Internet? Formality can give freedom. For instance, learning how to tie a bow tie and what to do with one's wing collars gives one the freedom to attend formal occasions, without losing one's ability to wear jeans. Conforming with the stylistic rules of an online journal gives one the right to contribute to the discourse of the journal, without losing the right to slum it on IRC. Maybe there's an analogy in poetry. Learn the rules, _then_ break them. Perhaps sequences such as _Jerusalem Sonnets_, _Willy's Gazette_, _Sonnets for Carlos_ and _Blue Irises_ (sorry about the parochial examples) would lack some of their power if they hadn't had the formality of the sonnet form for the poems to struggle against and subvert. One can knock a wall down, or dig underneath it, or look for a hidden door, or climb it and admire the view. The absence of rules is _not_ the key to freedom, despite what Lindsay Perigo (another provincial reference) might say. Of course, no-one wants to wear a dinner suit every day, or write in rhyming couplets all the time, or have the cybercops breathing down their necks. One of the reasons that I admire Edwin Morgan is that he can write something as formal as _Glasgow Sonnets_, and then experiment with concrete and sound poetry. I hope the `tux forces' (although to me, a dinner suit conjures up associations of glamour and flamboyance - how about `grey flannel Brooks Brothers suit forces'?) keep their grubby hands and small minds off the net; but I still see a place for formal, regulated spaces on the Internet. Your humble servant, Tom Beard (loosening the half-Windsor knot on his tie as 5:30 approaches) P.S. Have you ever turned up to a function (opera, film premiere etc) wearing a dinner suit, only to find everyone else wearing jeans? One wonders now who is orthodox and who heterodox. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 02:37:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Re: name calling/cummings In-Reply-To: <199506150433.VAA10316@slip-1.slip.net> Hi Steve, and everyone: cummings! Well anyway, Laura Riding agreed with you, in about 1924, when the critics remembered cummings had grazed in the Loygardens @1916....when Mina Loy, via Paris and Florence, was helping to bring the 'poet-painter' concept alive in New York.... But it's funny you should bring him up; he's the writer I was thinking of through the whole 'sentimentality' thread, and he's unbearable (on for instance prostitutes), but there *is* something in cummings-- a lyricism like there is in Berrigan maybe-- that I feel I can't do without. So lately I was waving some new poetry around and saying "I want what cummings had" which is probably *not* what Tony Green means by taking up the chisel on behalf of one's students.....the contrivance of lush feeling This was, by the way, an isolated incident.... --------Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:31:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: klobucar Subject: new web site Announcing a new World Wide Web initiative to stimulate critical discussion and debate on aesthetics and technology as these cultural components continue to influence each other at the end of the twentieth century. A fresh writing project on the Web called "Infusion" will soon begin publishing in electronic form. Essays and reviews are now being solicited on electronic art in general or any topic concerning the place and effect of aesthetic theory within electronic media. Questions and responses can be mailed to either my e-mail address: klobucar@unixg.ubc or that of the site on which Infusion will be run - front@wimsey.com. The address of the magazine is as follows: http://www.wimsey.com/~front/infusion. Comments and criticism appreciated. Infusion is designed to facilitate a more informed and critical awareness of cultural production on the internet. Reviews and discussions of various internet sites will follow, each one providing its own series of hypertextual links to the actual site under investigation. Emphasised within these writings are the radically new conceptions of both space and time endemic to the medium of cyberspace itself. Not in any way bound by traditional, institutional demarcations between the artwork and its critique, the reviews that originate at this site will feature a much more interactive model of comment and analysis. These writings will seek ideally to interconnect with their own objects of critique, providing more than just commentary or general criticism: Infusion will remain, above all, an exercise in critical engagement. The electronic medium of the internet inspires a whole series of new challenges for the contemporary cultural worker. The very technology itself demands different skills and objectives within the cultural sphere. Those who choose to ignore these changes run the risk of seriously limiting their respective social "voices". A new media framework requires new social responses. It is hoped, therefore, that the following electronic spaces will collectively provide a suitable discourse for creative,thoughtful reflection befitting these technologies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:25:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: sun & moon/sentimentality Poetics The second we stopped sending messages with the header "sentimentality" the anthology _50: A Celebration of Sun & Moon Classics_ arrived at St Marks Books. (It's a pretty great read, modelled apparently on the old New Directions annuals. Writers from the publisher's list and then writers the publisher admires all in one handy book--does anyone know if S&M plans to do this again?) Barbara Guest, from _Ojjiba_ of sentimental values none no more than a spasm the arm goes over and down and over in il splash drank a tumbler then greenleaf and swimming dog muscular gladioli goodly frere _unio mystica_ we perceive a grass ship [_il splash_ seems to be the _selah_ of this poem] F.T. Marinetti, from _Dunes_ SENTIMENTAL blinded {on the young explorors be-} blinding by {trayed by wives lovers} by tears {solemnity of a cuckold} red tears {on the equator} The book (which maybe could have used more proofreading) includes a lively section from Lyn Hejinian's _Sleeps_, some Forties by Jackson MacLow, a typographically enhanced translation of _Vladimir Mayakovsky: Tragedy_, a poem by Charles Henri Ford (That's where the ND feeling comes from), Celine (or that), Queneau (or that), Michael Palmer, Charles Bernstein, Fanny Howe, David Bromige, etc., etc. If you buy only three anthologies from Sun & Moon this year... (Could somebody say a little about _I Novissimi_, the Giuliani anthology from S&M? I'm, as they say in the back of the magazines, curious...) Love, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:45:59 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Prof. R. Prus" Subject: long shot In-Reply-To: <2fdf15b74970002@maroon.tc.umn.edu>; from "maria damon" at Jun 14, 95 12:07 (noon) To Maria Damon or Anybody, Maria mentioned the journal Long Shot, particularly the issue "It's the Jews." Would anybody have the address so I can subscribe to it? randy prus prusr@babbage.sosu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:56:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Ah! Theology! I just got back from the audiologist. I have had ringing in my left ear for two months now. One of the audio tests they did with me was to speak words into my headphones and have me repeat the words (and to guess at the word if I didn't hear the word clearly). So the audiologist is pronouncing words in my ear and I'm repeating them out loud. But what is happening with me is I'm trying to figure out what the pattern is to the words they're using and then when I had trouble hearing the words I thought of it as an auditory Rorschach test (at one point I said "shotgun" to what sounded like "shotgun" to me, but by that time I had also figured out somewhat of a pattern and that was: the words related to children: playground, school, etc. and I was throwing "shotgun" into that mix!). At one point all I heard was a phoneme and repeated that. Before I latched on to the idea that these words related to children, I tried to make a narrative out of the words and I tried to figure out what different sounds these words made and what that pattern might be. I also wondered who made up the words because even though they were certainly throwing these words at me for their SOUND value they also have meanings attached to them that resonate in your brain as your repeating them out loud. All in awl, a very interesting experience. Don Cheney dcheney@ucsd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:38:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: sun & moon/blue M&Ms Jordan's comments on the Sun & Moon _50_ anthology _almost_ make me wish I'd picked that up instead of their _Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative American Poetry 1993/94_. But not quite. It's a good digest of various current scenes (though there're things I'd have liked to see included that aren't) drawn from magazines, most of which don't show up in Seattle. &, a real breakthrough here, NAFTA in action, it includes Canadians and, I think, one Mexican as "Americans." 's about time, eh? But really, I just wanted to say that Jordan's use of the abbreviation S&M for Sun & Moon reminded me of the blue M&M I had yesterday. They're a darker blue than I'd expected, replacing the light brown ones. For the Canadians on the list, M&M's are kind of like the candy . I don't know the equivalent in other countries. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:53:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: name calling/cummings In-Reply-To: from "Marisa A Januzzi" at Jun 15, 95 02:37:31 am Anybody ever heard cummings read? There's actually a small clip of him reading pretty how town on Encarta for cd-rom. His voice and its natural rhythm are very lyrical to begin with (breath of line is quite honest, I think). He sounds like a hybrid of W.C. Fields and the voice of Winnie the Pooh. How fictionally appropriate. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Extract from silence-digest Folks-- I found this gorgeous sentiment while leafing through the archives of "silence-digest", the John Cage mailing list. Thought some might find it inspiring: silence-digest Wednesday, 15 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 007 http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt/Cage/cage0107.html From: "Myron Bennett" Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:57:08 -0500 Subject: Greetings, and Happy New Ears ==============================CUT=============================================== One of the wonderful fruits of John's coming to Cincinnati was that he became acquainted with Jeanne Kirstein, who was a Pianist In Residence at the Conservatory (part of U.C.) (and wife of Jack Kirstein, then cellist with the LaSalle Quartet.) John fell in love with how Jeanne played his pieces, and chose her to record for Columbia "The Early Piano Music of John Cage". During the time of recording in New York, on one of her returns to Cincinnati, Jeanne told me that one day, as they were listening to a playback, John said to her in a somewhat wistful tone, "This makes me realize that I could have been a composer." Peace, Kenny G ============================================================================= Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/ kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 13:25:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: All about the taking In-Reply-To: from "Tony Green" at Jun 12, 95 02:25:24 pm Tony, sorry it took me so long to reply, but I had a reading to get ready for, which was helpful. I really, reallly enjoyed your post, and I think you've articulated something I've felt while writing. I have several poems in which I deal with this issue,and while I was getting ready to read I noticed I formally treat influence through parataxis or an angular jarring of styles, I suppose like language poetry, only style is the unit of interrogation. It strikes me that the result is violent, as in fusion or fission, and this is the noise of the self and its tongue reconfiguring to accomodate personnae, love and whatever else is engaged. I think this is where Ondaatje's verse about "a spine" being bred is born. It seems language can't just be "the furniture in the room" becase the process doesn't feel that benign. Of course, this is assuming we can say history and influence can be thought of as "other" in Spicer's system. Hmmm. Best Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:33:46 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: sun & moon/blue M&Ms Hi Herb, there was a great moment when Kelly Bundy thought hers was a W & W. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:38:03 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: name calling/cummings Dear Marisa, I was not wanting to specify What, contriving lush whatever is chiselling... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:05:37 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale In-Reply-To: <01HRJEOUM3UG8ZEHPI@albnyvms.BITNET> Chris: Recent scholarship suggests Davy Crockett was a woman. One of the many who "passed" in those days. Coincidence? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: long shot In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > To Maria Damon or Anybody, > > Maria mentioned the journal Long Shot, particularly the issue > "It's the Jews." Would anybody have the address so I can subscribe > to it? > > randy prus > > prusr@babbage.sosu.edu here it is: Long SHot productions, inc. p.b. box 6238 Hoboken NJ 07030 md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 17:56:07 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: long shot last address i have: Long Shot PO Box 6231 Hoboken NJ 07030 luigi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:07:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: sun & moon/blue M&Ms Herb Levy wrote: >But really, I just wanted to say that Jordan's use of the abbreviation S&M >for Sun & Moon reminded me of the blue M&M I had yesterday. They're a >darker blue than I'd expected, replacing the light brown ones. The abreviation S&M would never make me think M&Ms, Herb. You poets have such clean minds. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 20:58:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: name calling/cummings Ryan Knighton writes: >Anybody ever heard cummings read? There's actually a small clip >of him reading pretty how town on Encarta for cd-rom. His voice >and its natural rhythm are very lyrical to begin with (breath of >line is quite honest, I think). He sounds like a hybrid of >W.C. Fields and the voice of Winnie the Pooh. How fictionally >appropriate. There's almost 200 minutes of Cummings on two Caedmon releases recorded c. 1940 and c. 1960, and issued in 1975: poems, bits of plays and a section from _Eimi_, his Soviet travel journal. And that's not including the nonlectures, which are also out there somewhere. You pegged his voice perfectly, Ryan. How many know that Cummings was one of the first American painters to be identified with the Cubists? There's an excellent book by Milton A Cohen called _Poet and Painter: The Aesthetics of E.E. Cummings' Early Work_ that traces the development of EEC's work in both media and explains why he came to be seen as more experimental in his poetry and less so in his painting as time went on. It's on Wayne State University Press. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:30:12 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk" Subject: Mag-u-like In-Reply-To: <199506150403.FAA16216@tucana.dur.ac.uk> As a librarian I suffer from information overload so tend not to read too many "general" mags on a regular basis (in the UK so many of them are just packaging jobs anyway), just specifics in a different field. BBC Music Magazine Earthcare (because it's there) The European (bi-weekly with really eccentric sports coverage) The Gramophone New Scientist Private Eye and World Wildlife are in the recent scan pile. Different field: The Ecologist European Access European Urban and Regional Studies Musical Quarterly The Strad, again, recent scans. And some from the world of lit: Fragmente (new issue just out, ed. Anthony Mellors, English Dept, Durham University, try the new poems by Harriet Tarlo, Tony Lopez, Peter Middleton etc). Object Permanence (new issue due July, ed. Peter Manson Flat 3/2 16 Ancroft St Maryhill Glasgow G20 7HU). Mandorla (ed. Roberto Tejada was through Durham last week, his address Apartado postal 5-366 Mexico DF, Mexico 06500) nice-looking bilingual Spanish/English job. And although I can't read it I do enjoy scanning: Literatura na Swiecie (ed. Piotr Sommer, ul. Zgoda 9m.42, 00-018 Warsaw). All in Polish, carefully produced translations of world writers from a national and ideological range which wd certainly lead to a great fight were they ever to have a L.naS christmas party... "learn the rules then break them" I like - xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 09:32:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry c/o Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: The Unberables (fwrd from James Sherry) [I am reposting this message for James Sherry:} > ****** Jordan, > Thanks so much for your reply. Who would've thot Ron Kolm would be a > rabble rouser after all these years. But these guys are already in that > group. sparrow hung out with Alan G. for all those years and Ron was > always pushing beats when he was selling books on 8th St. So it's kinda > like Lamar Alexander who claims to be a political outsider, but just got > several million dollars in severance pay supported by the govt during a > merger of two weapons giants. Ah well life goes on. > > I can really only tell you what poetry is not and what it was, not what > it is or will be since that has to be defined at the poem and then known > only by reading. but I am not a good answerer of questions, more of an > asker to paraphrase another writer you would not want me to. > > Thanks so much for the info. JAMES > > > [from Jordon Davies:] > > James: > > The Unbearables are published (I believe) by Grove. Their Andre Breton is Ron > > Kolm. Their Eluard is (was?--I think they excommunicated him after the New > > Yorker printed him) Sparrow. Christian X. Hunter, Michael Carter, Jill > > Rapaport, Buddy Kold, and dozens of others are associated with the group, > > which met regularly at Cafe No Bar on 9th btw 1 and A for a year or so. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: palinode on a nightingale In message <950615.160655.CDT.ENPAPE@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Chris: Recent scholarship suggests Davy Crockett was a woman. One of the > many who "passed" in those days. Coincidence? can u tell us more? what are your sources?--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Think the Reverse Tom Beard writes, mentioning traditional forms, "learn the rules, _then_ break them." I like to "think the reverse" whenever possible and even if not: break 'em enough times you won't have to learn 'em, or the rules will have changed, or you will change them, or make up your own rules and don't follow those either; anyway whose rules are they?, I didn't see the signs, musta missed them in the duststorm; or as we say in Medias Res (Medias Res, Nevada) -- rope 'em and then learn 'em, shoot 'em and then cook 'em (chop up fine before marinading indefinitely), float jerkily and carry a Bic pen at all times, where aim I?, is this my fear / or did I just step into the public sphere?, are you there Mordred?; Give me your tired tuxes, your tattered nabobs of oligarchy yearning to Keep that Smut Off the Net, Thank you Sen. Exxon the open spaces around here were scaring me, how many syllables can you fit on the head of a pin cushion? what's that spell, Mario? who are you calling a verse? That's not what I meant y'all, not what I meant at all. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 08:59:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: S&M/M&Ms (blue) Tony, as Dodie noted, any memory of Kelly Bundy has been cleaned out of my mind. Who's that? Dodie, when people don't get my (stupid) jokes I can get surly & maniacal. &, hey, watch who you go calling a poet, especially around here. I don't want to have any rumors starting. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:08:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Leftwich Subject: Re: Think the Reverse Charles, I wrote this about a year and a half ago. It'll be in the next issue of TEXTURE. The rule is "thou shalt not steal". Jim IN MEDIAS RES The mere word 'freedom' is the only one that still excites me. The verb to be admits the assertion. I don't believe in automatic writing either as a literal possibility or as a utopian or propagandistic literary value. There is no such place as the economy, the self. And if anything, the kind of 'dream logic' juxtapositions that characterize much surrealistic work seem to me a candied souping up of traditional literariness, especially in so far as has been drawn upon in so much post-war American poetry (of what has been called 'the bird flew through my pillow' sort). This is the right occasion to recall that the unconscious that all true poetry calls upon is the receptacle of original relationships that bind us to nature. This is not a sentence. The words merely crawl across the page, leaving a trail of syntax. It is not the sky we mean, but the past, a non-existent wall. Everything happens as though, prior to the secondary scattering of life, there was a knotty primal unity whose gleam poets have honed in on. Yet the narrative crosses the garden, cool and damp. I guess it's a certain kind of depth of field that surrealist eery dreaminess highlights that I would prefer to see diminished or framed. Little nicks in the silence come to a period. Within us, all the ages of mankind. Within us, all human kind. Within us, animal, vegetable, mineral. To try and tell a story is to make a purgatory of the real. Mankind, distracted by its activities, delighted by what is useful, has lost the sense of that fraternity. These words scratched my way slowly into existence. Clarity is an effect operating on the reader that has more to do with hypnosis than understanding. The purpose of the work was the transformation of the worker. No such thing as a phrase. The earth, draped in its verdant cloak, makes as little impression upon me as a ghost. I have no conception of what I have to say which I then want to put into writing. The writing itself shows me what I have to say, and it's always news to me. I use chance as a discipline, to free my mind, my ego, from my likes and dislikes, so that I can flow with a larger set than I comprise. The idea of getting all the material in a poem totally 'spontaneously' from my 'self' seems boring to me - my interest in writing is to be able to incorporate material from disparate places. The image is a pure creation of the mind. It is living and ceasing to live that are imaginary solutions. Insist on what's present (broken glass, nearly powdered) - a drunken man, half-sleeping, at the feet of two cops. Crushed plastic orange juice bottle - there's no horizon in a tunnel. Existence is elsewhere. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:33:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Think the Reverse Charles B.: >I like to "think the reverse" whenever possible and even if not: > >break 'em enough times you won't have to learn 'em, or the rules will have >changed, or you will change them, or make up your own rules and don't follow >those either; anyway whose rules are they? I can't agree with you more. As as prose writer, I always feel fortunate that I never had a single course in prose writing (beyond Freshman comp), particularly how to write a short story. Sometimes in writing I think it is very useful to have something to write against, but it brings shivers of revulsion (Kevin recently reread Powers of Horror for his Blaser talk, so JK is on my mind) to think of me having this spectre of traditional narrative and plot structure and character development (this is much worst than the skin on the top of old milk, uurrrrghhhhfffffff!) to settle my stomach over. I've got plenty else to think about in structuring my work. I basically learned to write through imitation, and I often had no idea in the beginning why I was doing much of what I was doing in narrative. I saw somebody else doing it and I thought it was neat, so I'd try it. Particularly I copied techniques of a very talented schizophrenic woman in Bob Gluck's writing workshop--transcending linearity was like breathing for her, while I was at home pulling my hair out over it. Now I could give a theoretical rationalization for everything I do, but the theory came later (and deepened my work, I think)--again, I approached it always from a gut level. I read theory to find more neat things, most of the neat things I found were in art and psychoanalytic film theory rather than in literary theory. I usually feel much more akin to what's going on in the art world than in the writing world, plus it was easier to seize and adapt neat things that were tangential to what I was doing. I should be honest and say that Bob Gluck was guiding me through this process, but usually in his kitchen rather than in the writing workshop. Scooping salmon patties from a frying pan, he would give me gentle little nudges like, "Dodie, if you take the personal and push it as far as you can, it becomes universal." In my own writing workshop I've had students who were amazingly well-versed in theory, but who wouldn't have a clue as to how apply that knowledge to their own work. It's like teaching somebody grammar and then expecting them to speak English. It ain't gonna happen that way. "Learn the rules then break" them sounds like such a militaristic approach to innovation. xox, Dodie B. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:46:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: material from disparate places material from disparate places is written by me (by the me that is me --or, sometimes, i) so, what is not me that i write? (answer: nothing) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:52:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Mail List: Concrete as some of you may know, cris cheek has attempted to put together a mail list for discussions on visual/concrete and sound poetries. he recently noted to me that he is without a system which receives and forwards posts to a group (apologies for lack of technical language here -- i'm new to all of this); however, i've talked with some people here at sfu and it's possible to establish a mail list which would focus on this form of poetry. based on my few exchanges with cris, i am aware that there is an interest for this. so, to take this one step further, anyone interested in being a part of a discussion group on visual/concrete poetry please let me know via back-channel. if the interest in there there is certainly no problem in proceeding. perhaps one of the issues which can be explored here in regards to this poetry is poetic collaboration on the net... i know there has been some interest expressed in that of late best to all, carl clpeters@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:12:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: News Flash The July issue of _Internet World_ p. 112 lists the EPC as the "major poetry list." Though they got Poetics and the EPC slightly confused; it's interesting that we're mentioned in the "big" press. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 01:05:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: News Flash Loss Glazier informs us: >The July issue of _Internet World_ p. 112 lists the EPC as the "major >poetry list." Though they got Poetics and the EPC slightly confused; >it's interesting that we're mentioned in the "big" press. I thought this list was supposed to be a SECRET. Who squealed? :-) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 09:26:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thoreau Lovell Subject: Re: material from disparate places ". . . by the me that is me--or, sometimes, i . . ." SOMETHING NEITHER VIVID NOR CONCRETE "I wish to speak to the real self the one holding the pencil awkwardly. But you write with a fountain pen says the argumentative father in the brain. Or is it in the mind? Oh I prefer the heart. The brain is the one with the wires. The mind is an onion. The heart looks like a Valentine. How am I supposed to know, is the question put to us by the son, who speaks for the father Who is asleep, Dummy, says the son, and the sawdust shifts to the wrong side of the head which awakens the father, who is rational yet says in a pipe-in-the-mouth voice, 'One never knows,' recalling as to how the search for the real onion (peeling and peeling) made him cry." To the real "Guitart," it was a joy to discover this and other of your poems in the 1986 Anthology of Contemporary Latin American Literature, 1960-1984 (ed. Luby and Finke). Thanks! TL ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thoreau Lovell Five Fingers Review ^ tlovell@sfsu.edu PO Box 15426, SF CA 94115 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 09:39:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: News Flash Steve Carll sez: > >I thought this list was supposed to be a SECRET. Who squealed? :-) Steve, anyone with a web-browser can read the archived wisdom of this list at the EPC. This explains why, recently, so many books by George Bowering have been turning up in used book stores around the world. Hole fans have been de-accessioning his works since word got out that he doesn't like the band. So check out those bargains in the alternative CanLit section of your local book store today. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 14:54:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: News Flash In-Reply-To: <199506170805.BAA14519@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jun 17, 95 01:05:37 am > >The July issue of _Internet World_ p. 112 lists the EPC as the "major > >poetry list." Though they got Poetics and the EPC slightly confused; > >it's interesting that we're mentioned in the "big" press. > > I thought this list was supposed to be a SECRET. Who squealed? :-) Actually, we're still in the clear! They didn't give out the Poetics address, only the e-poetry address (which subscribes one to RIF/T and related publications)... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 01:32:12 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: Think the Reverse think esrever eht, break dem rules, what rules? what thinking? think? anarky rools / wiv an iron fist, orright? write a sonnet of 20 lines, claim this is due to inflation, wot, theft against the law, I swear officer i never knew; but listen up, my dog was silent for 5'42", a record? a recording I'll market as _JC, the extended remix_, so learn 'em & break 'em, break 'em & make 'em, floating smoothly with a Waterman, where was I? question mark at the end, is that a rule. I wish I was mad againe, worst than that, much wurst (yes pleaze, w/ relish, ooh u r offal (but i like u) gut level, not spirit level)) in - what? they're meant to add up? honest officer i &c... but start again (agin) w/ a peaceful innovation, AWOL from th avant-garde (a military term), another cuppa candy soup, vegetable soup, animal, mineral in point-of-fact (Point-of- Fact, Essex; ostensibly near Clacton-on-Sea, but really (Real) near Pontefract, actually) where we say "reverse of what (tahw)? Whatya rebelling against Charlie?" "Don't tell me whaddya got" riding off into the duststorm in his leather tux ... ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 22:12:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: material from disparate places Thanks for the poem, Thoreau. Reminds me of "Borges and I" (you know, the one by Borges). Writing seen as a kind of extremification of the experience of identity moving through vastly different spaces in the psyche, yet somehow maintaining a thread of unity (Amazingly.) Or sometimes not. A kind of Multiple Personality Order. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 16:27:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa A Januzzi Subject: Re: name calling In-Reply-To: Contriving Lush Whatever Hi everyone; I've been saving this clipping for you electric entities for three days now: Karen Finley's doing Martha Stewart in nightclub performance "'I won't actually play Martha,' she said yesterday [to a New York Times guy], 'but I will take her spirit and go over the top with it.'" There's also a book involved, but I'm thinking it can't be better than the one about cats who paint. ---Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:27:57 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Think the Reverse There are rules as prescriptions, which in the arts are never better than rules of thumb for tiros -- knights before bishops, castle early -- , these are broken commonly and necessarily as occasion demands. Occasion's demands get met by what though --- a routine consideration of known options accumulated from other seemingly like occasions? That's the hidden face of accumulated internalised rules of procedure called experience? The rules problem is at its worst in the first formulations of academies, especially where it is recognised that no rules can meet every occasion. Our common (on this lists recent posts anyway) unwillingness to countenance rules is like the familiar cry of Romantics faced with the authority of academies in the 18/19th centuries, all hardened up for us by Modernist revolts. Rules are maybe now not so important as knowing strategies for working with writing and publishing. That's often an interesting matter for this list. But how to write how to read how to de-stress how to bring up your baby how to deal with any number of problems on the non-fiction shelves is all to do with finding rules with allowances for occasional individual variations: the usual foundations of a discipline. Teachers get stuck with it easily. "Give us a rule so we can please you to get good grades". I have students who complain that I "set essay topics" that are too broad and leave too much freedom of choice. I should be more "directive". The answer could be not rules, but motivation. "Once you know what you want, maybe you can think of a way to get it". I like thinking the reverse, obverse, perverse too. If your organs were available for easy transfer to another, and you could choose, would you offer parts in the personal column of the local paper, or go down to the supermarket and offer, say, your brain, to a casual passer-by that looks like they could use it? This is a perplexing topic that I discussed with a friend at the weekend. Anyone who could draw up rules for this situation please advise. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 16:24:08 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Think the Reverse what rules? charles charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 17:38:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Think the Reverse In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > > If your organs were available for easy transfer to > another, and you could choose, would you offer parts in the personal > column of the local paper, or go down to the supermarket and offer, > say, your brain, to a casual passer-by that looks like they could use > it? This is a perplexing topic that I discussed with a friend at the > weekend. Anyone who could draw up rules for this situation please > advise. in high school i wrote a short story about a guy who, believing himself the ultimate philanthropist, gave away his body parts one by one to deserving individuals in need, replacing them with mechanical parts (he was rich enough to do this medically, but thought simply giving money away a "cheap" sort of philanthropy). he believed that as he physically became more mechanical, he was in fact --metaphysically, though of course i didn't use the term at the time --becoming more "human," in the sense of "humane," --more of a mensh, which, of course, means person. the writing wasn't that good (telos/theme driven) but i still think the idea's kinda cool. --md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:55:15 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Think the Reverse Hi M a r i a, given the difficulties and perhaps serious disaadvantages that my friend and I work under (regarding brains), we were not sure that the offer of them as spare parts to others would be philanthropic: but it is more than a little interesting that your giver-figure made a sacrifice that was not a sacrifice and regarded what he was giving up as of useful significance. We were thinking perhaps more of exchanges. I will relay your reply to my friend, Pamela Honum who is not on e-mail. Thank you for the information. I'd love to see the story. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:00:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Think the Reverse >what rules? --charles alexander you rule, dude. Huh-huh, huh. Steavis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 11:46:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: rules and reverse thinking i have news for you: rules are disappearing everywhere, even from linguistic models. there are no syntactic rules anymore: only 'constraints'. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 13:02:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In the spirit of adhocracy, arbitrary contructs offer useful tension while we're making something. Left to ossify, these things get pointed at as funny fossils. And only contribute in the past. For the one who used them. Back to the old absolute versus relative thing! SEM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 14:08:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking >i have news for you: rules are disappearing everywhere, even from linguistic >models. there are no syntactic rules anymore: only 'constraints'. you there: syntactic rules, rules only no news. models: linguistic i have for from everywhere even disappearing constraints are 'are' anymore. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 17:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In-Reply-To: On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, Herb Levy wrote: > >i have news for you: rules are disappearing everywhere, even from linguistic > >models. there are no syntactic rules anymore: only 'constraints'. > > you there: > syntactic rules, > rules only no news. > models: linguistic > i have for from everywhere > even disappearing > constraints are > 'are' anymore. > Hi. New to this list, and it seems traditional to at least say hi. That done: Buckminster Fuller writes: In short, physics has discovered That there are no solids, No continuous surfaces, No straight lines; Only waves, No things, Only energy event complexes, Only behaviors, Only verbs, Only relationships. I like that. I like physics. Physics makes theory into art--or maybe I mean to say art out of theory. . . which is what I am currently trying to do w/ my own poems--including working on a "love" poem out of the above. In physics, the rules are the art, and I shudder at the thought of losing such precious babies hastily tossing out any bathwater. . . good to be here on this provocative list-- ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 21:17:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking So, Chaos theory? A poetics of Fuzzy Logic, say? Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:44:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In-Reply-To: from "Shaunanne Tangney" at Jun 19, 95 05:24:03 pm i remember in art school they always told us: "learn to draw before you abstract." i always hated that. i felt there were other ways of drawing, that what was important (at least for me, then -- and now) was process, the knowing&unknowing of the act, the moment of the act of doing and undoing. it's taken a few degrees but i think, for the most part, i've gotten rid of that rule, ironically: "learn to draw before you abstract." reading and poetry had a lot to with that -- saving me... ...i mean. to learn to draw i learnt to write when i went to graduate school i worked with a professor who taught drawing and sculpture. one semester in a drawing course he gave he wouldn't let anyone _draw_ -- that is, _draw_ with pen or pencil on paper, nothing like that. what they did was for the whole term they just talked about drawing, and they studied the etymology of the word. he was adament abt this, too, because if he noticed you "regressing" and starting to draw he'd fail 'ya! no one failed. fact, i think he gave everyone all _A_s. well desrved, too. i saw their work in an exhibition at the close of the year. it was stunning! best, carl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:40:04 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk" Subject: The Written Record... The Written Record... Evidence brought to light in April this year by Andrew Crozier (University of Sussex) now demonstrates that the essay published by the Basil Bunting Poetry Centre under the title of _The Written Record..._ is not in fact by Basil Bunting, but by "Roger Kaigh", the pseudonym of Louis Zukofsky's friend Irving Kaplan. The essay is concerned with the unreliability of the written record... Dr. Crozier will publish his work on the origins and ascription of this paper in due course; meanwhile the Directors of the Bunting Centre issue this statement to avoid further confusion. The essay was purchased, together with a group of papers by Bunting, Zukofsky and others, from the Bunting estate in 1988. Its initial identification was made by Peter Makin, Peter Quartermain and Richard Caddel at that time, on the strength of the circumstancial evidence of its discovery, and its contents. Any confusion caused by this premature judgement is very much regretted. The essay has been available in the Basil Bunting Poetry Archive - where it has been consulted by numerous Bunting and Zukofsky scholars - since 1988, and since March 1994 it has been available in published form in the Centre's publication _Three Essays_. At no time has its ascription been queried. We are therefore grateful to Dr. Crozier for identifying the piece as "Paper" by Roger Kaigh (referred to and quoted from by Louis Zukofsky in his own essay "American Poetry 1920-1930"), and for his work on the Kaigh/Kaplan-Zukofsky connection. It still remains a matter of conjecture how the piece, without its title page, or any authorial statement, came to be in Bunting's possession, but its importance to him - demonstrated in the other pieces in _Three Essays_ - is evident. We are pleased that the piece has now been correctly identified, and that an important unpublished paper which had been thought lost is now identified and accessible. We are of course also eager to contact Irving Kaplan or his heirs at an early stage. Richard Caddel / Diana Collecott Directors Basil Bunting Poetry Centre University of Durham ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:21:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Think the Reverse and, to say it again, who? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking hey, tho, doesn't "constraints" sound even worse than "rules"? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In message <00992212.7C3C8C60.21@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > So, Chaos theory? A poetics of Fuzzy Logic, say? > > Burt Kimmelman > kimmelman@admin.njit.edu oooh, let's be a little more friendly to first-time posters on the list, okay bro?-- maria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 15:12:49 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking It was really good (to my eyes) to see ShaunAnne's introductory message, and its reference to and quotation from Buckminster Fuller. ShaunAnne, are you a Bucky fan? I am. Does anyone on the list read his poetry, or interest themselves in his importance to poetry? Zukofsky, I know, cited his work, as did John Cage. Anyone know any other examples? (oh, also, anyone interested in the slightly hushed-up aspect of Fuller's enthusing about marriage and relationships but in fact being a philanderer - as he admits in an interview in Martin somebody's book on him - that is, that Fuller didn't, unusually for him, incorporate his *practice* in the area of sexual relationships into his general *theory*, but still talked as if he believed in (and practised) monogamy, as if monogamy was more aligned to his *theory* than polygamy...) Anyway, I for one want to welcome ShaunAnne to the list, Ira ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:48:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: as a rule to herb@inuit as a rule i am not constrained enough to respond. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 11:14:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: the new physics poem one problem with the new physics poem is that you cannot use the word 'only' because it doesnt qualify as a verb so you cannot have a new physics poem with the line 'only verbs' and that is too bad because it would be nice for new physics poems to be self-referential just like most other old physics poems. but ShuAnn i do want to see your verb-rich (straightline-poor) love poem. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:14:21 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking >In message <00992212.7C3C8C60.21@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group >writes: >> So, Chaos theory? A poetics of Fuzzy Logic, say? >> >> Burt Kimmelman >> kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > > >oooh, let's be a little more friendly to first-time posters on the list, okay >bro?-- >maria It's funny, Maria, but I didn't suspect that Burt's post was unfriendly. I guess chaos and fuzzy logic are okay by me. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 13:23:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: thinking in reverse Not to take an oblique tack on this issue (which I think started out as a spanking of someone for the ((incomplete)) tag at the end of their message and not as a response to a question-- a _very_ Stalinist move, I thought, Charles) but rather than ignore everything and hope that by so doing we won't have to learn anything, might it not be more pleasing to make up or misunderstand the "rules"? and then break them? Subversion instead of revolution.... Just a nutty idea Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:52:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In-Reply-To: <2fe6cd8839ed002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, maria damon wrote: > In message <00992212.7C3C8C60.21@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group > writes: > > So, Chaos theory? A poetics of Fuzzy Logic, say? > > > > Burt Kimmelman > > kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > > > oooh, let's be a little more friendly to first-time posters on the list, okay > bro?-- > maria > oh, no! I loved it! And reply yes! I have written a poem called "Chaos Theory" and it is all about mysterious attractors and other fuzzy things! Best, ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 11:00:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In-Reply-To: <009922A8.C53EAEC0.3570@cpcmg.uea.ac.uk> I am here replying en mass to all who welcomed me and sallied forth on the issue of physics/poetry. No, I don't read B. Fuller, as of yet! Looks like I should. However all of this will have to wait as I am currently studying for comps! I like the thoughts re: only not qualitfying a verb, and that why can't new physics be self-referential as was old physics--I ask in return, can anything be self-referential in the pomo, that is, to my mind, the here and now? Some might argue that we can only be self-referential. . . I'm interested in anyone's thoughts here. I also think of Calvin (of comic strip fame) "verbing" words (like when you send something in any big city via bicycle messenger, you "messenger" it)--this seems distinctly pomo. I see the pomo as distinguished by a sense of timelessness; hence, verbing words seems so very appropriate. Also connecting physics and poetry. . . But now I'm soapboxing. . ! Finally, several expressed interest in seeing the poem, but I do not know the etiquite on this list. Do we post actual poems and discuss them, or just [poetics in general? I'm game for either, but do not want to upset the format here! Thanks for the warm welcome, all! ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:23:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking the Martin [somebody] is probably Martin Duberman and his book about Black Mountain. But see also a decades later study of Black Mountain by, her name escapes me--more up to date and filled with great detail, and gorgeous to look at. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 18:44:47 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking > >i have news for you: rules are disappearing everywhere, even from linguistic > >models. there are no syntactic rules anymore: only 'constraints'. >Only relationships. >I like that. I like physics. Physics makes theory into art--or maybe I >mean to say art out of theory. . . which is what I am currently trying to >do w/ my own poems--including working on a "love" poem out of the above. >In physics, the rules are the art, and I shudder at the thought of losing >such precious babies hastily tossing out any bathwater. . . Words like 'constraints' and 'relationships' sound very much like rules to me. Yes, physics is all about rules - whether we discover the rules that govern the universe, or create rules to make useful predictions about our sense-data - whichever way you look at it, we are looking for rules. That's what intelligence is for. Language is all about rules too - grammar, syntagmatic/paradigmatic relationships, denotations, connotations (a meaning doesn't have to be in the dictionary to constitute a rule of signification), genres, rhymes schemes. The very fact that at least some of you (I hope) have some idea of what I'm talking about means that we share some of these rules. In creative writing, we are free to choose whatever rules we want for our work, and them break them as we feel fit. Go ahead, write a sestina with one word on each line (Dinah Hawken), an elegy consisting of a question with no question mark (W.S. Merwin), a haiku that doesn't follow the 5-7-5 rule (just about everyone). Your poem can gather up the tension that comes from straining against its structures, and use it to its advantage. There's no-one standing over you with a big gun, saying "thou shalt write in iambic pentameter". At least, I hope there isn't. If there is, it's time to inquire into what purposes (aesthetic, political, cultural, inertial) those rules are serving. You may find the rules useful. You may want to challenge them. Either way, you have learnt something. We are subject to rules whenever we speak or act. It's to our advantage to understand those rules, via theory, reading and/or experimentation. Then: follow them, bend them, break them, change them, subvert them, or some combination of the above. Unless we understand the rules, we will not have these options. Tom. ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 14:49:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: rules Music resembles poetry, in each are nameless graces which no methods teach and which a master hand alone can reach. If, where the rules not far enough extend (since rules were made but to promote their end) some lucky license answer to the full the intent proposed, that license is a rule. In other words, make up your own rules. Don't worry too much about breaking them. Someone else will take care of that. Something there is that doesn't love a rule. By the way, is the rule when reading Olson that I have to draw a breath inward every time I drop down a line? Is the dizziness that results from hyperventilation when this is tried supposed to be part of the poem? Is it permissible to break Olson's rules while reading his rule-breaking poetry? Or is that against the rule? Sometimes it is hard to get clear answers. I once asked a specialist in Shelley's "Prometheus Unbound" what it was all about. The reply was, "I cannot answer that question in the face of obvious hostility." It was Shelley who set us all going about rules. "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." Tom Kirby-Smith English Department UNC-Greensboro Greensboro NC 27412 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:34:47 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking Carl Lynden Peters comments on learning "Drawing" before doing "Abstraction" are echoed throughout a cautious middle-ground view of artists like Picasso who learnt academic practice "the rules" BEFORE going off the rails. Is Gertrude Stein some poetic equivalent, learning the rules of syntax BEFORE writing unpublishable "distortions". A painter friend claims to have avoided art school drawing practice "from the model" from the very beginning, knowing that what he wanted to do was make "abstract painting". Nobody has ever seemed to notice that he was disadvantaged by the lack of "drawing". His work, however, has always been located within the "abstract" tradition, i.e.the governing principles, or Rules, that could be ellicited from the study of early modern abstraction (or later versions of same, say 1960's-70's abstraction). Syntactic variation of standardized communication patterns of syntax in writing has, as most people on this list will know, a history or tradition. Rool brae king's a ploy wivorfforitie? It could come in handy when the authority is an imposition of a power one cannot respect, an invitation to others to recognise the actual conditions of writing, opposing freedom to constraints, breaking bonds, and in turn establishing bonds, seeming to oblige the next generation to go on breaking old bonds in the same way (as per the not so long ago debate between so-called G1 and G2) What, asked my daughter, in the car this morning, in the thick of the rush-hour traffic, is a Goody-Goody Two Shoes? I thought to answer by taking a short cut on the footpath and cut back into the line some 500 metres further along (but did nothing of the sort), continued to creep along at 10 k p h Arriving too stressed out to prepare a lecture I sit here writing to the List instead. Good mornings begin without Gillette: I'm letting my beard grow. love ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:36:16 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking fuzzy logic or something all around my chin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:21:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, maria damon wrote: > > > In message <00992212.7C3C8C60.21@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion > > > group > > writes: > > > So, Chaos theory? A poetics of Fuzzy Logic, say? > > > > > > Burt Kimmelman > > > kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > > > > > > oooh, let's be a little more friendly to first-time posters on the list, > > okay > > bro?-- > > maria > > > > oh, no! I loved it! And reply yes! > I have written a poem called "Chaos Theory" and it is all about > mysterious attractors and other fuzzy things! > > Best, > ShaunAnne okay, cool. welcome to the list.--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:24:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: gates's sob what do you all think of skip gates's piece "sudden def" in the latest new yorker (latest at least given the minnesota time lag i suspect plagues me, since people in nyc were calling saying, you gotta read this a full week before it appeared in my mailbox). i've got some reactions but wanna hear you-all's before going full throttle. maria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 18:06:23 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking Tom , you talk of sestinas and haiku and elegies and that's all fine. When I said "what rules?" I meant to imply that no one is obliged to follow such defined forms, even though the departures from the farm may be what ignites the poem. One can, of course, and such poems can be dynamic. But I often find that the work I read again and again makes its own structures, so that part of the joy of reading is finding such structures, including how and when and why they are followed and not followed. But when is making it up oneself, it is difficult to think of the structures and forms one invents as rules or constraints, rather they seem more like methods or even, forbid, poetics. charles charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 18:09:06 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking By all means post poems. My own experience is that there may be just a little, or no response at all, on the list, but usually a bit more response off-list or back channel. Not much response to poems when they are posted on the list, although such postings happen now and then. I don't know why such reticence follows poems. Still I get the sense the postings of poems is appreciated by many people on this list. charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:20:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: rules and reverse thinking I want a devotional poem; faith ecstatic loss in divinity beyond difference not I but neti neti sketching negative space useless poems sopping beer on the last bar before leaving a stinking saddhu in diapers and hair no pen or paper only water mantric and outside and hostile and immune and no grinning and nothing to say in the cave merely barking Siva Siva Siva not even listening in the dark to the rock bark it back it's quits with Krishna Krishna Krishna with the milk on his chin a cobra snake for a necktie and a chimney of skulls cringing peasants piling rice and bananas at the mouth waiting not for oracles for rewards for blessings just waiting not as consumers critics supplicants doctors of philosophy just waiting itself without expectation or meaning woithout questions collecting decollecting recollecting one saddhu among uncountable one cave among uncountable common as god among uncountable gods in the wink of a Brahma one Brahma among uncountable and back and back and back and back and desire folding petals into the belly of Vishnu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:19:23 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: thinking in reverse Dear Jordan, what you suggest is really useful (about misunderstanding rules and then acting on them). In lower ranks of administrators this is often called for as defence against insane seeming instructions from on high, and may be called Creative Administration. Indeed it can be subversive. I'm glad to hear this valuable tactic brought to public attention. Best ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:32:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: rules In-Reply-To: <9DC997A09A7@fagan.uncg.edu> from "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" at Jun 20, 95 02:49:44 pm > > By the way, is the rule when reading Olson that I have to draw a > breath inward every time I drop down a line? Is the dizziness that > results from hyperventilation when this is tried supposed to be part > of the poem? Is it permissible to break Olson's rules while reading > his rule-breaking poetry? Or is that against the rule? > --what abt intention: Olson's intention that the poem be read that way (i.e., the breath line). would that constitute a rule? best, carl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:49:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In-Reply-To: <76155.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > By all means post poems. OK, here goes (this is the one after the Buckminster Fuller quote I posted to this list previously): NIGHT SWIMMING we do not surface for now we let it rest between us heavy and massive but we could not lay our cards upon it or our bodies upon it it goes without measure we like to say it is beyond measure but without line or plane it is merely measureless measure is within periodic disturbances voluntary movements body against body gravity and light energy seeking body seeking body seeking energy freed from itself we are only behaviors only verbs measure is within without the selfish center without the thin skin of past and future time and space we are only relationships from here the stars seem to shiver and so we surface (May, 1995) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 21:37:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In message <76007.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > even though the departures from the farm may be what ignites the poem... > > charles > bright lights big city! especially in the pastoral tradition, don't you think, where, like stein in paris, it takes a deracination to ignite the language... nice, charles. sorry i missed the other evening. how was it? i think a reply over the net (not backchannel) might actually be welcome since describing poetic events seems to be something we do well here and enjoy reading about --best, maria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 19:47:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking ShaunAnne, Poems get posted all too infrequently, and I've gone on record (sounds a bit too rulesy!) as one who'd like to see MORE of 'em. So post away! Would love to see your poem. And welcome! Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 00:51:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking It's hard to tell if Reginald Johnson's poem is a parody of the ethnopoetic kind of mode or an attempt to accept its tonal and vocabulary (and ideological, sorry!) premises--- I say this especially in reference to his "it's quits with Krishna Krishna Krishna" which seems to undercut the seeming celebration of such Eshelmanisms the poem elsewehere flaunts, presumably, shamelessly----chris stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:09:12 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Fuzzy Logic Poetics The concept of "a poetics of chaos or fuzzy logic" is not just a serious idea, it is an actuality. There is no "uncertainty principle" in a poem that appears in print in the sense that one is not in doubt as to whether a particular word or phrase does or does not occur in the poem. For hypertext or other forms of interactive work, the situation is quite different. There may be no guarantee that a reader will *arrive* at any given lexia. The software may or may not allow sequential access to "all" the lexia. So now we face the question: how do we know that a given phrase is actually present in the work? There is only a *probability* that it will be encountered. Fuzzy logic poetics is a very exact description of what happens here. The situation gets even more elaborate with algorithmically generated work like John Cayley's. Where the text is generated on the fly by an algorithm, uncertainty is even greater. [For those not familiar with hypertext rhetoric terminology, 'lexia' is a term borrowed by George Landow from Barthes to describe the "nodes" in a hypertext. Of course, some of us question the fixity of this concept.] -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:47:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: skipping def Maria I find I've been reading the New Yorker a lot lately too. I liked Holman's reaction to Ginsberg's optimism. As usual I got something from the minuscule bits of poetry that were screened through the prose. The piece really reminded me of the kind of profile Rick Rubin (name?) used to get when rap was new and Def Jam didn't have comedy installed in its middle yet. I.E. there are these black performers and they're all right but let's talk to the promoter, the mastermind. I _like_ Bob Holman. I just thought it was a curiously journalistic piece. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 09:54:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: from "Jim Rosenberg" at Jun 21, 95 09:09:12 am To me, the term "a poetics of fuzzy logic" is less than appealing. The reason is that the word "logic" in the phrase, resonant of "logical," implies that there is some desired goal. (Isn't fuzzy logic _in part_ used to help you, say, find information when you don't quite know what you are asking for?) "Fuzzy" also implies a lack of precision, which I do not think is a fair critique of a poetic text. Another distinction is very important. In my writing about this topic, I have always distinguished between "closed" hypertextual systems (a diskette for example and a program specifically used to run the hypertext) and an "open" system, say such hypertextual works as occurring on the Net, where the software is "generic" and the "peformance" or presentation of the work can occur in multiple situations. As to whether a reader has access to the full lexia; depending on the designer of the system (aka writer) this is not a matter of chance, but squaring off to some of the assertions made by Landow and others, it is a matter of the author's _intention_. Yes, such an intention persists. What the text does allow is multiple possible readings; the degree of this multiplicity is in the author's hands (and partly in the software's). Access to the lexia? Yes, it is more _marked_ here, i.e., there may be entire sequences of text that by some choice the reader makes, she will never arrive at. (Sort of like the standard film motif where pausing once at a newsstand throws your cosmic timing off so that you subsequently miss the chance bumping into your ideal mate by half a second. Thus you spend your life lonely.) However, the tension of hypertext should not convince one that this partial lexia problem is limited to our technological space. Take for example the book - and here two instances. Lexical meanings of words the reader may miss because she does not know the word, does not relate to the association the writer has intended, or has a strong personal association that overrides the writer's. Second, thinking of references within texts to other texts, not everyone can leap out of bed and pick up a text which the author has just alluded to, to read the passage in context and pick up the contextual lexia that might possibly be the heart of the author's reference... This is not a disagreement with the post cited below, simply some extensions of it into our common space. I also wish to mention that RIF/T will issue, as part of its "associated files" feature, the first in a series of such online hypertextual works. This will be included in RIF/T's next issue (to appear within the next two weeks). > The concept of "a poetics of chaos or fuzzy logic" is not just a serious > idea, it is an actuality. There is no "uncertainty principle" in a poem that > appears in print in the sense that one is not in doubt as to whether a > particular word or phrase does or does not occur in the poem. For hypertext > or other forms of interactive work, the situation is quite different. There > may be no guarantee that a reader will *arrive* at any given lexia. The > software may or may not allow sequential access to "all" the lexia. So now > we face the question: how do we know that a given phrase is actually present > in the work? There is only a *probability* that it will be encountered. > Fuzzy logic poetics is a very exact description of what happens here. The > situation gets even more elaborate with algorithmically generated work like > John Cayley's. Where the text is generated on the fly by an algorithm, > uncertainty is even greater. > > [For those not familiar with hypertext rhetoric terminology, 'lexia' is a > term borrowed by George Landow from Barthes to describe the "nodes" in a > hypertext. Of course, some of us question the fixity of this concept.] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 06:56:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Think the Reverse >and, to say it again, who? I'm sorry ed, who what? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 06:56:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: rules: rule or suck? Hi all (and welcome Shaunanne): Well, the world is marked by structure, and rules seem to "govern" structure. But structure is fluid, so the question is, when we break the rules of a particular structure, are we following a set of overarching rules governing the fluidity of structure? And if we are, can we live with such rules, since they allow us so much freedom with regard to "subverting" the rules of the level we're more used to being oppressed by them on? I think of rules as useful learning tools. It's true that some people's intuition in some areas allows them to leap over the need to learn this way, and that even those who do learn through rules will hopefully transcend the need for them. So maybe the only thing we need to require of rules is that they do open out somewhere and let us continue down our path on our own. I think this may be what Carl's professor (and zen, for that matter) was trying to get at. Once we've been acculturated and internalized the culture's rules, we may need to work our way through them until we've exhausted their particular logic, and only then can we burst out of them. BTW, great poems Herb Levy (love that editing) and Shaunanne (is the title related at all to the REM song, or should i be ashamed of myself for even asking?) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 06:56:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: bucky fuller Hey all: I'm just remembering a book a friend from college long ago was excited on finding a copy of. It was a Bucky Fuller book which had 3 or 4 different narrative threads all running simultaneously in different parts of each page (e.g., one running across the center of each page, one in a different typeface in the upper right ). Anyone know what book I mean and what it's called? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Marshall H. Reese" Subject: TV appearance Ligorano/Reese 67 Devoe Street, Bklyn, NY 11211 For Immediate Release Contact: Nora Ligorano/Marshall Reese fax/phone (718) 782-9255 Contract with America limited edition underwear to be featured on Lifetime Television's "Biggers & Summers" Talk Show Artists Nora Ligorano and Marshall Reese will present their limited edition of "Contract with America" underwear on live television Friday, June 23 at 11:00 AM EST. Their appearance on Lifetime Television's new "Biggers & Summers" show will reach 64 Million viewers nationwide. Since the inauguration of their highly successful limited edition "Contract with America" underwear, news stories about the artists have appeared in hundreds of newspapers, on radio and television across the country. The limited edition briefs even brought an official response from the Republican Party after the artists sent pairs to President Clinton, Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and other elected officials in Washington, D.C. The Associate Chief Counsel of the Republican National Committee wrote the artists Rto discontinue [their] unauthorized use of the Contract with America logo and text immediately.S The ACLU Arts Censorship Project and cooperating attorney Elizabeth McNamara of the law firm Lankenau, Kovner and Kurtz responded on behalf of the artists that Rthe art project is a classic example of political satire...The combined impression is clearly humorous, and obviously meant to parody the Contract with America." The artists plan to print a second edition of 300 pairs of "Contract with America" underwear (200 mens and 100 womens). The second edition will sell for $50.00 per pair, plus $5.00 shipping and handling charges and New York state sales tax, where applicable. The "Biggers & Summers" Show is cablecast on channel 12 in Manhattan and Brooklyn. It is rebroadcast on the West Coast at 11:00 AM Pacific coastal time, check local listings. For more information contact Ligorano/Reese at (718) 782-9255. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:22:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: rules: rule or suck? In-Reply-To: <199506211356.GAA17521@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jun 21, 95 06:56:15 am > > I think this may be what Carl's professor (and zen, for that matter) was > trying to get at. Once we've been acculturated and internalized the > culture's rules, we may need to work our way through them until we've > exhausted their particular logic, and only then can we burst out of them. > hey, steve. the professor i referred to has had, continues to have, the strongest, deepest influence in both my creative life and on my aspirations to teach. i asked him once what influenced him the most in his teaching. "The military," he said. --he served 2 or 4 tours of duty in Vietnam best, carl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:27:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Keeling Subject: Re: bucky fuller In-Reply-To: <199506211356.GAA17525@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jun 21, 95 06:56:22 am > Hey all: > > I'm just remembering a book a friend from college long ago was excited on > finding a copy of. It was a Bucky Fuller book which had 3 or 4 different > narrative threads all running simultaneously in different parts of each page > (e.g., one running across the center of each page, one in a different > typeface in the upper right ). Anyone know what book I mean and what it's > called? > Hi Steve, I believe you're referring to _I Seem To Be A Verb_, Bantam Books 1970. --john ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:33:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Mail List: Concrete In-Reply-To: <199506162053.NAA27067@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Carl Lynden Peters" at Jun 16, 95 01:52:59 pm Good morning, all! --To all who expressed an interest in a mail list on concrete/visual, sound and performance poetry -- exellent: we've gotten a good response Next step is to name it. what are your suggestions? i was talking with the computer guy here at sfu and the name _DADA Poetries_ came to mind. What would you prefer? all the best, carl clpeters@sfu.ca n.b.: cris, give me a call. thanks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:49:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Mail List: Concrete In-Reply-To: <199506162053.NAA27067@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Carl Lynden Peters" at Jun 16, 95 01:52:59 pm ...or this: DADA-List-Poetries DADA-List dadalist deadalus (can't sp it!) into th' great wwwwwwwwwide open~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:54:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: rules: rule or suck? Steve - >BTW, great poems Herb Levy (love that editing) That wasn't a poem, I was just following a rule. As I've said before, I'm not a poet (but I play one on TV). Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:54:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: bucky fuller > >I'm just remembering a book a friend from college long ago was excited on >finding a copy of. It was a Bucky Fuller book which had 3 or 4 different >narrative threads all running simultaneously in different parts of each page >(e.g., one running across the center of each page, one in a different >typeface in the upper right ). Anyone know what book I mean and what it's >called? Steve - I don't know Fuller's work very well, it might have been a book (can't remember the name right now) published by Something Else Press. But it really could be any one of several books, you'll have to look them over and see which one your friend had. I thought of these off the top of my head, but, as I said, I don't know Fuller's work. I'm sure that others on the list could provide further (and/or better) references. (For instance, I recall another book like this by Fuller with the words in the title, but I'm blocking on the full title of it.) by Buckminster Fuller by Buckminster Fuller and of course, <_Homage to Creeley_> by Buckminster Fuller (There should be a full underline between the first three and the next two words of this title. This effect is not possible in terminal mode. Sorry.) Bests, Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: wabbit season Hail Poetics Loss Glazier wrote: >"Fuzzy" also implies a lack of precision, which I do not think is a fair critique of a poetic text. Since we all seem to have respect for critique, could we start listing what constitutes "fair critique"? I would suggest that some quality like accuracy or precision can be attributed to a poem, and that someone who fancies that quality might miss it in a "vague" or "abstract" poem. I myself like vague and precise poems. However. Also, Loss, is the interactive poem you mentioned the one compiled at the EPC? Would it be possible for future contributors to the poem to see where their lines go once they're written? (I mean, to access the poem in progress?) With love Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:42:20 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: show yr poem HERE is my poem ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: It's just that it reminds In-Reply-To: <950620132257_98640428@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jun 20, 95 01:23:00 pm Here's to O'Hara and the bit of solace he's given me: It's just that it reminds God it must be 9:45 on a Tuesday night bordering on evening at least once a week in a lifetime of poetry and once again i'm tipping my hat to the breeze thinking bout those motes and tropes in the nooks of streets which were somehow left behind. I didn't do it I think and walk into Sophie's cause we agreed it's the only place worth patronizing for a muffin although I really want a donut and I have coffee but it really isn't the same as what I hoped for when I think of Sam's Diner or an extinct species of time and place thereabouts. I don't know where anyone else came from here but when I was born I distinctly remember I thought lab coats were lovely and it would be very pleasant for us all to wear them and our first impressions on our sleeves and so I open the paper hoping to see you in the funny pages but you haven't even left a note and I think how good Rex Morgan is looking these days despite his strips irreverence for novelty or thereabouts. There's an Elvis impersonator outside and two nylon kids are eating up to me before giving the country the thumb and really I just can't wait for Reg or George or someone larger than this vinyl booth to shuffle in and declare war on austerity in the service industry. And I just have to say to Frank and his absence that when I think about you somewhere there is grace in living as variously as possible although I usually can't help but feel full and fed up since my eyes are too big for my stomach and so to you I must ultimately confess in all sincerity that I shouldn't have ordered the cosmos when it wasn't mine. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:08:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: a devotional poem Chris-- I can't tell either. But at the very least I was in earnest about wanting a devotional poem. And it is quits with Krishna, the fop. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:23:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking yah, yah, yah, poetry doesn't have rules, sometimes it doesn't even have words. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: rules the breath line is not a rule, dude, it's what you do; rules are things you break. yah, yah, yah. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:27:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Think the Reverse who what, steve? why? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:39:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: open mic 21 Titles For the Open Mic "A Desperate Cry for Help" "I'm Going Straight To Hell" "Boxes, Handbags, Lunchbuckets" "I'm A Sorry Bastard" "I'm A Suffering Bastard" "Eggs" "They Calls Me Iron John, Bitch" "A Dipped Cone" "Why I never Get Mail" "Begging Your Pardon" "Viva Existentialista" "Generous Helpings and Large Portions" "Bruce, Bob, and Jack in A Car Between Bakersfield and Vegas" "Honey Can't You Be Persuaded" "Baby When Will You Be Convinced" "I'm Feeling Moody" "Sweety Sooty Sweaty So and So" "My Ugly Son, His Beautiful Wife" "I'm Not Listening I want Your Boots" "This Poem Isn't Really About Anything It's Just something I Thought About On The Bus On The Way Over Here Tonight I Don't Know It's About Suicide Or Masturbation Whatever You Get Out Of It" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:57:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking In-Reply-To: <01HRZ50OVOOQBSOINF@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU> from "Edward Foster" at Jun 21, 95 05:23:30 pm rules, schmules. well, that kinda follows one, don't it? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:15:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: open mic hey everybody, in the coming year i'll be writing an essay on slams and open mike readings (sorry, i prefer that spelling cuz the other looks like it shd be sd "mick") and am interested in presenting your (selective, collective and singular) views, as "background," "foreground" (a la text collage) or points of disputatious analysis --a few folks hve said stuff, (I dig reginald johnson's list of titles, and some of the earlier discussion, plus i'm still waiting on responses to my gates/new yorker question. so send your thots and monologues either front or back channel for private consumption or mass/coterie entertainment.-- maria d ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:15:21 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: rules somewhere in an interview Ed Dorn made it clear he couldn't see how it could be a rule, this breath length sorry forgotten ch and verse ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 00:15:50 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: bucky fuller > It was a Bucky Fuller book which had 3 or 4 different >narrative threads all running simultaneously in different parts of each page >(e.g., one running across the center of each page, one in a different >typeface in the upper right ). Anyone know what book I mean and what it's >called? > >Steve R.Buckminster Fuller 'I Seem To Be A Verb' (Bantam 1970) fits the photofit Steve The blurb reads 'R.Buckminster Fuller: Comprehensive designer, inventor, engineer, mathemetician, architect, cartographer, philosopher, poet, cosmologist, choreographer, visionary - celebrated for developing geodesic houses that fly and for dymaxion ways of living.' written with Jerome Agel and Quentin Fiore and prefaced with a quote - 'There's a smell of paint in here' (overheard at The Museum of Modern Art I especially enjoy the cap on The cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:01:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: rules: rule or suck? In-Reply-To: <199506211356.GAA17521@slip-1.slip.net> On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Steve Carll wrote: > > BTW, great poems Herb Levy (love that editing) and Shaunanne (is the title > related at all to the REM song, or should i be ashamed of myself for even > asking?) > > Steve > Thanks. No. No. --ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 17:12:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: open mic In-Reply-To: <199506212139.OAA20642@fraser.sfu.ca> On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Reginald Johanson wrote: > 21 Titles For the Open Mic > > "A Desperate Cry for Help" > ok--rookie on the list: what's the Open Mic? Thanks! ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 20:53:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking beautiful poem, one that reminds me of oppen or bronk or rakosi or maybe niedecker. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:01:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: gates's sob I loved the gates piece (tho have only read the first half--obeying the rules of reading?); I think he makes a great journalist, and the rap poem he quotes was great (def?), and the piece has reconciled my own struggles about rap as poetry and generally about high and low art etc. so i guess what i'm saying is that the piece came along for me at the right time. i wish something could now reconcile my conflicted feelings about the tina brown stewardship (if that is what it is). burt kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:04:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics speaking of hypertext theory sources--have you read J. David Bolter's book Writing Space? Anyway, c'mon! Physics is today's poetry--particle or cosmic--let's face it! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:08:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics is fuzzy logic imprecise. is logic teleological by nature? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 20:22:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rules, reverse thinking, calvin, and cummings ShaunAnne writes: >I like the thoughts re: only not qualitfying a verb, and that why can't >new physics be self-referential as was old physics--I ask in return, can >anything be self-referential in the pomo, that is, to my mind, the here >and now? >Some might argue that we can only be self-referential. . . >I'm interested in anyone's thoughts here. Good, cause I have some.. .:-) I see postmodernism as distinguished by its self-conscious self-referentiality. I also see "the here and now as not reducible to the postmodern, specifically with regards to this discussion, in that it includes the self but doesn't refer all of what is back to the self. >I also think of Calvin (of comic strip fame) "verbing" words (like when >you send something in any big city via bicycle messenger, you "messenger" >it)--this seems distinctly pomo. I see the pomo as distinguished by a >sense of timelessness; hence, verbing words seems so very appropriate. Yes, I liked that cartoon; what I thought was interesting was Hobbes' (and, I got the impression, Bill Watterson's) reaction, something to the effect that, with this attitude toward language, soon we won't be able to communicate through it anymore. And yet, as Cummings saw so clearly, this is one of the ways language generates new ways of communicating, and English is, it seems to me, particularly adept at the trick of "verbing". Cummings was trying, in his own words, "to undress one by one the soggy nouns whose agglomeration constitutes the mechanism of Normality, and finally to liberate the actual crisp organic squirm--the IS" (from "Gaston Lachaise", in _A Miscellany Revised_, October House, 1965, if anyone's interested.) So it goes way back before pomo (unless you're using pomo as a synonym for what is "ahead of its time", or "avant-garde", or whatever.) What is pomo is the emphasis on shifting the parts of speech of words, part of the pomo project of blurring distinctions, although it's perfectly within the wider syntactic "rules" of the English language to do so in this fashion. But, I ramble... Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 20:22:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rules >> >> By the way, is the rule when reading Olson that I have to draw a >> breath inward every time I drop down a line? Is the dizziness that >> results from hyperventilation when this is tried supposed to be part >> of the poem? Is it permissible to break Olson's rules while reading >> his rule-breaking poetry? Or is that against the rule? >> > >--what abt intention: Olson's intention that the poem be read that way >(i.e., the breath line). would that constitute a rule? > For that matter, are we breaking the rule by reading the poem silently to ourselves (no matter how we breathe) rather than aloud so the breath line actually means something? Just thinking "aloud", Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 23:38:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: <009923A3.940F3F30.18@admin.njit.edu> fuzzy logic's precisely imprecise. in set theory can refer to the degree of membership in a particular set or the potential of belonging to a particular set On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > is fuzzy logic imprecise. is logic teleological by nature? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:52:26 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking (with apologies to reginald johanson) I want ecstatic loss, divinity sketching the last bar water and no grinning in the dark waiting questions collecting uncountable gods and desire folding petals charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:00:09 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking > bright lights big city! especially in the pastoral tradition, don't you think, >where, like stein in paris, it takes a deracination to ignite the language... >nice, charles. sorry i missed the other evening. how was it? i think a reply >over the net (not backchannel) might actually be welcome since describing poetic >events seems to be something we do well here and enjoy reading about --best, >maria Maria, OK, farms into form . . . Friday night was a treat. Gary Sullivan and Curt Anderson and Anthony Schlegel and Jonathan Brannen and Joel Kuszai and I all read works. Very boyish indeed, as Marta Deike and Cheri Hickman forgot to bring their works. I showed a video a group in Tucson, Video Art Network (there were some women in that collective who helped make this video, including one, the incomparable Nancy Solomon, whose stamp was evident), made as a response to a poem of mine. Jonathan Brannen read, entire, his marvelous Thing is an Anagram of Night, a densely philosophical work whose thinking is firmly from the ground up, desire and wonder making time with the universe. A few other non-poets were there as well, so the talk ranged from writing to love to philosophy (one current student working on Lacan and Deleuze had a lot to say) to music until about 2:30 in the morning. Cats and children joined in the reading (not planned, but not unwelcome) as well. Sorry you missed it, but I consider King Crimson a worthy alternative. love, charles charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:23:47 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Night Swimming Shaunanne, your poem of the "measureless" is quite measured, from "not surface" to "surface," a distinctive poem about thinking being. Strangely physical and somehow also not at all physical, that unspoken "it" and the shivering stars. Thanks charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 04:47:52 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking Charles: >Tom , you talk of sestinas and haiku and elegies and that's all fine. When >I said "what rules?" I meant to imply that no one is obliged to follow such >defined forms, even though the departures from the farm may be what ignites >the poem. In which case the question might not be "what rules?" but "which rules?". In reply to another post, language in its most utilitarian form is all about following rules (that's why I used a comma in this sentence, and didn't spell "rules" as "selur" or "roolz" or "gdztr"), and language in its more creative forms is about breaking rules. Of course, all uses of language fall somewhere on the following/breaking continuum. One can write a prose poem that breaks all of the rules of "poetry" as a Georgian might have defined it, but still follows the rules of the English language. Or one could write a sound or concrete poem that follows none of the rules of language, but is still based upon a formal structure of some kind. Even aleatory poems are based upon some system of assigning dice throws (or whatever) to language elements. >One can, of course, and such poems can be dynamic. But I often >find that the work I read again and again makes its own structures, so that >part of the joy of reading is finding such structures, including how and >when and why they are followed and not followed. Another post asked "Is reading finding rules?" I'd say that reading is some combination of finding/constructing rules. This is what human brains do extremely well - find rules in complex, initially confusing data. >But when is making it up >oneself, it is difficult to think of the structures and forms one invents >as rules or constraints, rather they seem more like methods or even, >forbid, poetics. Rules/structures/constraints/patterns/methods/techniques/systems/poetics - maybe they're all the same thing? Tom ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:12:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Sheila E. Murphy" Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking Charles, sounds like a GREAT night! Wish I could've been there. Reminds me of some of the great events you generated in Arizona. We miss you here! Love, Sheila P.S. Did you tape this? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 05:49:04 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:12:20 -0700, Sheila E. Murphy wrote: >Charles, sounds like a GREAT night! Wish I could've been there. Reminds me >of some of the great events you generated in Arizona. We miss you here! > >Love, > >Sheila > >P.S. Did you tape this? > > Thanks, Sheila. I miss you here & miss Arizona here too (I probably sound like a broken record to people here, as I say that all the time, and it's true). Yes, we taped it, with a centrally placed omnidirectional microphone, leaving tape on through video, intermittent conversation, everything. I haven't listened to it yet. It may be intolerable. I'll let you know. all best, c charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:23:02 -40962758 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Loss Glazier: > To me, the term "a poetics of fuzzy logic" is less than appealing. Acutally, I don't really care for it myself, and am certainly *NOT* evangelizing for it; since the subject did come up -- in a context where some folks weren't sure whether the reference was "serious", I wanted to point out that the *concept* is out there, and yes it is serious. > Isn't fuzzy logic _in part_ > used to help you, say, find information when you don't quite know what > you are asking for?) No. Fuzzy logic means a logic in which truth values are *probabilities* in the range 0 to 1 rather than integers, such as the usual *exactly* 0 or 1 of two-valued logic. The issue is: what are the implications for discourse if we can only assess to a given probability whether something is "there" in the work. This really does have a direct correlation to certain things in physics, where you may only be able to get a probability for a measurement. > As to whether a reader has access to the full lexia; depending on the > designer of the system (aka writer) this is not a matter of chance, > but squaring off to some of the assertions made by Landow and others, > it is a matter of the author's _intention_. Yes, such an intention > persists. What the text does allow is multiple possible readings; the > degree of this multiplicity is in the author's hands (and partly in the > software's). This is getting a bit confused. In every hypertext I've ever looked at, there was no issue of "partial access" to a lexia. Access is not at issue here. When a hypertext is large, the number of *paths* explodes exponentially. But the reader *arrives at* a lexia via a path. With linear writing, the only way a reader can fail to arrive at a given word is to give up -- or skip ahead. But in a hypertext, one can fail to arrive at a lexia by simply not having chosen a path that links its way there. The issue is not access but *coverage*. Most literary hypertexts give you no way of telling whether or not you've been to every lexia. That means anyone discussing a hypertext has only a *probability* that any given reader will happen to have encountered the lexia in question. > Take for > example the book - and here two instances. Lexical meanings of words > the reader may miss because she does not know the word, does not > relate to the association the writer has intended, or has a strong > personal association that overrides the writer's. Second, thinking of > references within texts to other texts, not everyone can leap out of > bed and pick up a text which the author has just alluded to, to read > the passage in context and pick up the contextual lexia that might > possibly be the heart of the author's reference... These are valid points. Lots of folks have argued that hypertext is more like linear writing than some of the polemic would have it, and vice versa; certainly intertextuality and hypertext are deeply related. Still, without trying to be too argumentative, there is more than just a difference of degree if the "uncertainty factor" is inherent and pervasive rather than the exception. -- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.pgh.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:03:37 -0400 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Lavagnino Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Q: What's the opposite of fuzzy logic? A: Fussy logic. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:06:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics oh kimmelman---okay--sure,physics may very well be one acceptable poetry possibility--but don't IMPOSE IT on us-- "let's face it!"---or deface it-- cs. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:08:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "H. T. KIRBY-SMITH" Organization: University of NC at Greensboro Subject: breath rules I think there is someone on this list who heard Olson read his poems. Did he actually stop and breath in at the end of each line? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:11:10 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Fireworks at NYU Kerouac Conference Kevin-- From the hinterlands of Tuscaloosa, thanks, thanks, thanks, for your reports--Blaserfest & the passed along Kerouac events. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:47:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking . > > Friday night was a treat. Gary Sullivan and Curt Anderson and Anthony > Schlegel and Jonathan Brannen and Joel Kuszai and I all read works. Very > boyish indeed, as Marta Deike and Cheri Hickman forgot to bring their > works. I showed a video a group in Tucson, Video Art Network (there were > some women in that collective who helped make this video, including one, > the incomparable Nancy Solomon, whose stamp was evident), made as a > response to a poem of mine. Jonathan Brannen read, entire, his marvelous > Thing is an Anagram of Night, a densely philosophical work whose thinking > is firmly from the ground up, desire and wonder making time with the > universe. A few other non-poets were there as well, so the talk ranged from > writing to love to philosophy (one current student working on Lacan and > Deleuze had a lot to say) to music until about 2:30 in the morning. Cats > and children joined in the reading (not planned, but not unwelcome) as > well. Sorry you missed it, but I consider King Crimson a worthy alternative. > > love, > > charles > > charles alexander > charles thanks, what a rich description of what must have been a rich night. i do wish i'd been able to come, since i --unlike most of the friends i mentioned my evening w/ king crimson --didn't really know king c beyond a "sound" and a reputation as artsy and eccentric. i had fun too, though it took half-way into the show to really grok the spirit and truly come alive with the jive ("I DID") it was an anthropological experience, great people-watching, and of course, fripp belew and bruford and that bald guy are obviously really talented musicians. acid rock, as i realized when i went to see the long version of woodstock last year, is a specialized genre. tho as a kid i loved jefferson airplane, country joe, vanilla fudge (anyone remember their great cover of the supremes' you keep me hangin on, with oedipal ejaculations throughout ("mama? i'll be good...")) etc (the west coast sound rather than the brits) i can see how my elders would have felt mystified and excluded. king c: lots of lights and movement, lots of dramatic shifts of tone, fripp has a great voice too, kinda waily. still, i'd have dug the equally (and less structured, it seems, as the state theatre had assigned seating) bacchanalian apollonian/dionysian thrill of your gathering. love, maria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:25:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Kelly Subject: Re: breath rules In-Reply-To: He did not. RK On Thu, 22 Jun 1995, H. T. KIRBY-SMITH wrote: > I think there is someone on this list who heard Olson read his poems. > Did he actually stop and breath in at the end of each line? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17:19:10 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Sappho Hallo all, An old college friend recently told me at a wedding that Anvil Press, a quite conservative but fairly well-distributed British poetry press, is compiling, with her co-editorship, an anthology of Sappho translations through the centuries. They're quite weak, she tells me, on twentieth-century Sappho translations. I mentioned to her the book Safety, by Stephen Rodefer, that has some quite good slangy versions. Does anyone else know any, particularly by (those still claiming to be, Stephen) gay or lesbian or bisexual authors? Best wishes Ira Lightman I.LIGHTMAN@UEA.AC.UK P.S. ShaunAnne, I liked your poem a lot, one of the ones I've most enjoyed on the list while I've been on it. The Buckminster Fuller references have interacted with editing I'm doing of a book to be brought out by Cris Cheek; as I was proofing the opening piece, something I wrote about painting and other things, I remembered Buckminster Fuller's rule: there is no "up" and "down" in universe, only "in" and "out" (ie an aeroplane doesn't go "up" into the sky, it goes "out" from the planet, at a longer radius, then "comes in to land" - one of the only bits of idiom Fuller approved of as post-flat-earth-language). I noticed, reading through my piece, that I'd used the line "its composite sunbeams bouncing off the north wall five feet up from the ground and the west wall three feet up from the ground". In other words I broke a rule I'd agreed to let Fuller bind me by; I edited this to "five feet out from the ground" and "three feet out from the ground". Interestingly, the body of the piece accomodates the change quite comfortably, indicating to me that my sense of space, and the construction of a description, has actually radically subconsciously altered; instead of merely being "pc" in vocabulary choice, which would perhaps be an example of rule-following that is missing the consciousness-raising or wider rationale of the rule, I have let a rule work its way in and change and make other rules around it. Anyway, I "reprint" the piece below, as I'm adding it to a section of my book entirely composed of pieces sent to POETICS, where it fits best - and thus it now fits even better.... METAPHORS FOR THE SPACE OF MUSIC Being with an assumption that good can be shown to be the best possible course of interaction, to any new-born child, and add only as a rider that a new-born child may yet test your notion of good. Encourage and do not disapprove the thought-process of the child testing your notion of good, discuss it and let it grow as a thing of imagination in the theatre of your conversation, between you and the child. Thoughts are put into action too soon only because too many of us cannot incarnate a theatre of conversation, a place made by thought and only visible to thought and only by thought may we sit in it or walk its boards. This is a shame. For in that theatre a new born-child may be so moved by thought. In a common way, all may too be moved by gesture and other language, but there is a cubist composition called thought which is suggested by all the gestures in a conversation (the conversation includes all we know of each other, including what we have elicited as likely true of what we hear and see reported of each other). The composition is not on one plane. It is a cubist composition, with time in it. In some gestures, the light is of such and such a quality, its composite sunbeams bouncing off the north wall five feet out from the ground and the west wall three feet out from the ground, so picking up the colours of those parts of the north wall and the west wall, themselves being absorbed by those parts of the north wall and the west wall and rebounding as from a mirror or from mud variably. In other gestures, the day has moved on, the sunbeams hit different walls or new parts of the same walls, less or more spongy, of new hue. In some gestures, the painter walks up to the sitter to a nearness of four feet. In other gestures, the painter walks back ten feet and eight feet to the right. On the flat surface of the composition, all the gestures are recorded, but not in (one idea of) proportion to each other. When it was early in the day, the painter, at a nearness of four feet, drew the sitter's left cheek as the light of that time of the day reflected on the sitter and the painter and the page; when it was later in the day, the painter, having walked ten feet backwards and eight feet to the right, drew the sitter's left eyebrow in the different light of that time of the day, on whatever part of the page seemed to the painter to invite that gesture to be drawn upon it. Thus the flat surface of the composition on the page at the end of the day had drawn upon it a line that had originated as a drawing of the sitter's left cheek and at the same time also drawn on it a line that had originated as a drawing of the sitter's left eyebrow; the latter line, on the flat page, was to the right and *below* the former line. The composition was not a photo-lookalike. It would be impossible to produce a photo that would look like the composition, although both might have been of the sitter. One could picture the sitter in her or his absence, by looking at the cubist composition, by taking each line into one's mind, imagining each minus or plus close-up, compensating for by adding to or subtracting from the saturation of light in the line, adjusting left and right on the colour spectrum for hue. One would not thus make a photo in one's mind. One would make a three-dimensional sculpture vibrating in time, the fourth dimension. One would massage either the sitter's head or, more accurately, the space exactly around the sitter's three-dimensional outline, with the mind not the hand, as if there were hands in the mind which there are. One would see light bouncing off the sitter, a whole day's refracted beams, of many lengths and hues. If one had oneself been the painter, one might hear all the sounds one had heard during that day, bouncing in from the world and on the recycled breath carrying the unique intonations and even sometimes formulations of that day. All moments of all days are unique, and here there is a cubist composition which acts as a mnemonic for remembering some. The cubist composition of thought in the theatre of conversation is painted by all involved, each is sitter and painter. There we test the notion of good we live. The new-born child joins with us in showing such and such is part of good not evil, or the new-born child contemplates doing something that is not good and, without disapproval, I and the new-born child contemplate the contemplation, mentally, in the theatre and thus the evil is only contemplated and not acted, and the mental did no harm. Good is not a regulation accepted. It and evil are embodied in the theatre, evil is shown to be short-term, for one can spend one hour in the theatre and see much more than one: hour of imagined time and space; one is long-term in order to sit or paint in the theatre; by the dimensions of the theatre evil is only short-term and thus really boring. The sitter is not the painter, the painter not the sitter, all are not alike in the theatre; yet via Carl Rogers, Stanislavsky and Walter Benjamin's communing almost to identity, I have got to the theatre, got back there. In fact, when two meet (or more than two) and accept equally the painter and the sitter within them, then starting out with the attempt to identify from the inside (if you. like, via R, S or B) can be discarded. and conversation begin. The theatre, or cubism, or R, S, or B, may get you there, but they are not there. There is conversation. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 13:30:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: rules, reverse thinking, calvin, and cummings To Steve Carll et al.: Re.: "verbing" and other "transitizing of verbs inherent and/or verbs as back-formationed nouns: We today in English may have a proclivity for verbing because of our sensibility, that is, our high-tech way of life demands an (to borrow from the big man) "instanter" perceptual existence and because English is the most analyzed (i.e., broken down into constituent parts) languane [correction: language] in the world. Let us compare with ancient Roman Latin. That Latin was highly inflected or rather synthesized (the opposite of analyzed). Also, the ancient writers did not even bother to show visual breaks between words (the cursive script just flowed on and on and in Greek often wrapped to the next line backwards, called boustrophedon [sp?] meaning like the route a plow and its horse would take in the field--plowing meaning writing is a very old metaphor, by the way]); so, thinking about rules (I digress here), I guess the ancients had to be damn sensitive readers who found out the rules of the writing as they went along. Anyway, there are more discrete units in modern English. Questions for all: What was the frequency of neologism and hapax formation in the ancient inflected world? Does present-day avant-garde poetry (e.g. Language Poetry--or is this now G3 status and thus relegated to the ancient mists of historical time) depend more on new usages and the like than modern or older poetry? Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:57:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: w.s. In-Reply-To: <950621152751_99484853@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jun 21, 95 03:27:52 pm > Also, Loss, is the interactive poem you mentioned the one compiled at the > EPC? Would it be possible for future contributors to the poem to see where > their lines go once they're written? (I mean, to access the poem in > progress?) Jordan, I am at work trying to implement a program that will make this possible. Hopefully, soon! (Then there would be a link that offers access to the poem in progress.) Loss ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:23:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Okay Chris Stroffolino. the life of the mind! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:29:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: breath rules nor did williams. but creeley does (or used to). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:42:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: rules and reverse thinking Charles-- Thank you. Much better. reg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: rules, reverse thinking, calvin, and cummings kimmelman writes: > > Questions for all: > > What was the frequency of neologism and hapax formation in the ancient > inflected > world? > > > what's hapax --happy accidents? maria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:56:15 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Mail List: Concrete Carl, top work. PLease keep me informed. Don't respond to DADA Poetries personally - arguably locates it too specifically in a historical frame. Also gives the impression of being a list for DADA related activity and could tell more for the general interested browser. Having said which, 'naming problem' is common. I'll think on it, I know - how 'bout dada poetries? No, I'll think about it - but don't wait up love and thanks cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:48:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Message for cris cheek... cris, hi: can you back-channel me yr e mail address. sorry, i had it but have misplaced the file take care, carl clpeters@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 20:27:48 -0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "In the beginning was nostalgia. --Alan Halsey" Subject: Re: Sappho Ira: if it's not exactly a "translation" of Sappho, Steve MacCaffery's _Intimate Distortions_ is at least an interesting "reading-through" of Sappho. Semi-irrelevant anecdote: when I was at U of T I went to a reading by Doug Chambers and Thom Gunn--Chambers read from a marvelous "Homo Horace" series of translations--as he remarked at the start of the reading, he got tired of reading translations of Virgil and Sappho that made them sound heterosexual, so thought he'd return the favour with Horace. Anyone know if "Homo Horace" was ever published? --Nate Dorward. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Night Swimming In-Reply-To: <90066.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > Shaunanne, your poem of the "measureless" is quite measured, from "not > surface" to "surface," a distinctive poem about thinking being. Strangely > physical and somehow also not at all physical, that unspoken "it" and the > shivering stars. > > Thanks > > charles alexander > chax press > minnesota center for book arts > phone & fax: 612-721-6063 > e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu > Thanks. And yes, quite measured--I suppose some kind of Shelleyan or Wordsworthian "poet" (Measure is within) leaking out--was it WW who said that we need measure to control the emotion? (I should know that!) I don't know if it is always true for poetry, but it seem true inmy life! Best, ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17:09:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: rules, reverse thinking, calvin, and cummings In-Reply-To: <199506220322.UAA08277@slip-1.slip.net> On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Steve Carll wrote: > ShaunAnne writes: > > >I like the thoughts re: only not qualitfying a verb, and that why can't > >new physics be self-referential as was old physics--I ask in return, can > >anything be self-referential in the pomo, that is, to my mind, the here > >and now? > >Some might argue that we can only be self-referential. . . > >I'm interested in anyone's thoughts here. > > Good, cause I have some.. .:-) > > I see postmodernism as distinguished by its self-conscious > self-referentiality. I also see "the here and now as not reducible to the > postmodern, specifically with regards to this discussion, in that it > includes the self but doesn't refer all of what is back to the self. I guess I was thinking about stmts like Patricia Waugh's: "Both feminism and Postmodernism have extended our awareness that one of the effects of modernity is that knowledge reflexively enters and shapes experience and then is shaped by it in an unprecedentedly self-conscious fashion." Which says to me a loss of self at the expense of knowledge, but sure could be read as almost the opposite. Anyway, this is not a pomo list! I do appreciate your thoughts, though, Steve, esp those on verbing being earlier than pomo. I do see literary modernism as the last gasp of modernity, and modernism, so perhaps cummings gloming onto it is perfectly prophetic. And on that lousey alliteration, ShaunAnne > Yes, I liked that cartoon; what I thought was interesting was Hobbes' (and, > I got the impression, Bill Watterson's) reaction, something to the effect > that, with this attitude toward language, soon we won't be able to > communicate through it anymore. And yet, as Cummings saw so clearly, this > is one of the ways language generates new ways of communicating, and English > is, it seems to me, particularly adept at the trick of "verbing". Cummings > was trying, in his own words, "to undress one by one the soggy nouns whose > agglomeration constitutes the mechanism of Normality, and finally to > liberate the actual crisp organic squirm--the IS" (from "Gaston Lachaise", > in _A Miscellany Revised_, October House, 1965, if anyone's interested.) > > So it goes way back before pomo (unless you're using pomo as a synonym for > what is "ahead of its time", or "avant-garde", or whatever.) What is pomo > is the emphasis on shifting the parts of speech of words, part of the pomo > project of blurring distinctions, although it's perfectly within the wider > syntactic "rules" of the English language to do so in this fashion. But, I > ramble... > > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:05:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics you mean a text is fixed from the writer's point of view. wouldn't bowers, tansell, mcgann and others question the notion of a single intention. intention at what stage of creation of the final draft, etc.? anyway, when i reread a poem of mine i see what i have said, often seeing things not seen by me before when either reading or writing it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:13:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: rules, reverse thinking, calvin, and cummings maria--wonderful not-quite-false etymology!! Hapax is a word that has been used only once in all of time/history. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:09:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: breath rules I recall Olson's reading-breathing as emphatic and dramatic. Did he ALWAYS honor line breaks in the manner I've heard Creeley do--the answer is no. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Re: Reading lists Comments: To: krickjh@mcgraw-hill.com >Kenneth, > >Whatever became of the "Bedside" reading lists you started? >I thought that was a wonderful idea. Last one I saw was >March. > >John Krick john-- i like the idea of "bedside reading" lists a lot also. however, the nature of things on the net/mailing lists seems to be an ever-changing proposition; the minute you try to capture something, it has a way of eluding you. hence, the "bedside reading" was a March theme, and a strongish one at that. (Loss had gone so far as to ask if i would "edit" something to this effect each month--which i was/would be pleased to do.) however, it played itself out and disappeared within a week or two. i put up calls for more "bedside reading" lists but recieved no more responses. so--i let it go. if there is still interest, i would certainly continue with my accumulations, as long as people post/email "bedside reading" material. i'm happy to oblige. thanks for your interest. peace, kenny g ============================================================================= Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/ kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 20:07:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Loss Glazier begins a recent post with: >To me, the term "a poetics of fuzzy logic" is less than appealing. The >reason is that the word "logic" in the phrase, resonant of "logical," >implies that there is some desired goal. (Isn't fuzzy logic _in part_ >used to help you, say, find information when you don't quite know what >you are asking for?) "Fuzzy" also implies a lack of precision, which I >do not think is a fair critique of a poetic text. Well, yes, individually, the terms "fuzzy" and "logic" may have the implications you suggest, but put them together and you've got a whole different animal. It's kind of an oxymoron, the "fuzzy" part undermining and qualifying the "logic" part by introducing intuitive leaps and such ("fuzzy" logic is used to compensate for unquantifiable variables that spoil the predictions of "hard" logic). It thus doesn't so much imply a lack of precision (and anyway, I think there's a difference between an implication and a full-blown critique) as point up what the drive for precision may leave out. I don't know if that makes it any more appealing to you, but it's another way of looking at it, anyway. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 20:04:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Return of the Repressed In-Reply-To: <9505050400.AA02718@isc.sjsu.edu> Several people who attempted to reach A.L. Nielsen by e-mail in recent weeks have received their own messages by return mail with cryptic references to the unavailability of the person so addressed. While it is always heartening to reread one's own missives, some have expressed concern about the institutional viability of said Nielsen. The computer at San Jose State University, upon being told that Pete Wilson intended a run for the presidency, collapsed like Lana Turner. All's well now, however. If any of you have been spurned by the account known as anielsen@sparta.sjsu.edu, please give it another try now. peripherally yours, aldon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:51:03 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Night Swimming >Thanks. And yes, quite measured--I suppose some kind of Shelleyan or >Wordsworthian "poet" (Measure is within) leaking out--was it WW who said >that we need measure to control the emotion? (I should know that!) I >don't know if it is always true for poetry, but it seem true inmy life! > >Best, >ShaunAnne > > I'm not certain about that quote, although Zukofsky did say that in poetry, emotion is a matter of cadence. I don't have at hand the exact phrasing. charles charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:45:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rules/poems after poetry? Herb: One often finds poetry strewn around by non-"poets" in non-"poetic" forms. You call 'em as you see 'em, and I'll do the same. Take care! Steve > >>BTW, great poems Herb Levy (love that editing) > > >That wasn't a poem, I was just following a rule. > >As I've said before, I'm not a poet (but I play one on TV). > >Bests > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:45:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rules: rule or suck? Carl Linden Peters notes: >hey, steve. the professor i referred to has had, continues to have, the >strongest, deepest influence in both my creative life and on my aspirations >to teach. i asked him once what influenced him the most in his teaching. "The >military," he said. --he served 2 or 4 tours of duty in Vietnam Hmm...not what I would've expected from the US military (no offense to any US vets on the list), but certainly the potential to learn the self-discipline which is also needed in zen can be found there. Interesting point! Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:46:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Think the Reverse why, where steve what who, ed. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:46:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: bucky fuller John Keeler: >I believe you're referring to _I Seem To Be A Verb_, Bantam Books 1970. THAT'S IT!!! Thanks. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:48:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rules and reverse thinking Thanks for the advance preview of the King C show, Maria--I'm going to see them Monday in S.F. But I think it's adrian belew who does most of the singing, at least in K.C. (tho I haven't heard much of the new material--maybe fripp does finally take over some of the vocals!) I myself favor British psychedelia over American--it seems to want to *create* a psychedelic experience through the popsong format, whereas the Dead, Airplane, etc. seem to assume that the listener is already in the psychedelicized space and just want to be the aural wallpaper in the trip room. Which is not necessarily to knock such bands, I just think the UK version is more psychedelic as music, in and of itself. But I'm 28 and wasn't there for either kind when it was emerging, so whatta I know? Anyway. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:49:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: open mic >ok--rookie on the list: what's the Open Mic? ShaunAnne: It's a poetry reading (or any kind of performance) where the performers aren't announced ahead of time--anyone can just go and sign up and perform. They're marked by loads of fresh energy and rawness of presentation--and by really trite crap (sometimes simultaneously). Come to S.F. and you can go to two or three a night, every night. All you can stand. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:57:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: rules, reverse thinking, calvin, and cummings ShaunAnne: >I guess I was thinking about stmts like Patricia Waugh's: "Both feminism >and Postmodernism have extended our awareness that one of the effects of >modernity is that knowledge reflexively enters and shapes experience and >then is shaped by it in an unprecedentedly self-conscious fashion." >Which says to me a loss of self at the expense of knowledge, but sure >could be read as almost the opposite. Well, we gotta keep the models flexible. All things call forth their opposites. >Anyway, this is not a pomo list! I do appreciate your thoughts, though, >Steve, esp those on verbing being earlier than pomo. I do see literary >modernism as the last gasp of modernity, and modernism, so perhaps >cummings gloming onto it is perfectly prophetic. I think a lot of modernist artists have elements that can't be contained in that box and have to be dealt with as pomo--Cocteau, as Stephen Barker has argued, Stein and Woolf, Hart Crane, with his "hurricane poetics" and his subversively strategized homoeroticism...but you're right, we could all be here forever (or at least indefinitely suspended in the continuing present) talking about postmodernism. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:19:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: <199506230307.UAA23035@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jun 22, 95 08:07:16 pm Fuzzy logic sounds to me like 'warm and fuzzy'; comfort in negative capability or some such thing. I like to think of the poet as actingt out of entrapment, the king in Calvino's "A King Listens". The poet makes stories and counter stories to accompany the echoes around and plotting. A word or phrase echoes throughout the castle of the poem, suggesting shapes and distances, a narrative of corridors in which plots or unplots are made. A Poetics is to exercise power, like a king, when no power is evident or able. As O'Hara says, you go on your nerve, and Calvino's king is nervous. Then again, as A. Bergman says, I'm in a fresh hell right now and perhaps a little fuzzy for wear. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 01:22:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: a clove of gender yo sheila murphy, how can i get hold of your book called a clove of gender? gary sullivan read from it tonight chez moi and the desert wildflowers part is gorgiosorooni. in fact, how can i get hold of two copies of the book, cuz i have a friend who is into poetry and also into western agricultural history who liked the poems immensely as well. best, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:09:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: cobain lindZ--I loved your Kurt Cobain poem---I too want to explode in a violent flash---you sound GREAT!---wish i could drop over for an afternoon--chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:16:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Perelman Subject: hapax In-Reply-To: <2fe9cd7026f2002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Jun 22, 95 03:07:13 pm answer to Maria's question about hapax: hapax legomenon = greek for 'used only once' 'single occurrence'. If a word is found only once, how can you be sure what it means. I gave Apollo a xxcjxc = a can of baked beans? a purple Chevy? a daffodil dipped in nutmeg? a broken vibrator? a three-legged goat? Interesting poetics questions that reverberate through much of the discussion here. A lot of the assertion of faith in singularity, marginality is tending toward hapax-ville. But that makes political, communal collective political force rest on singular ironies. This is a paradox that may be 'productive' on the local level (screens, pages full of words), but beyond that (distribution, impact, others, public) possibly not. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:37:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Comments: To: bernstei@UBVMS.BITNET test too ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 10:53:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Re[2]: Reading lists Comments: cc: krickjh@mcgraw-hill.com >>Kenneth, >> >>Whatever became of the "Bedside" reading lists you started? >>I thought that was a wonderful idea. Last one I saw was >>March. >> >>John Krick > >john-- > >i like the idea of "bedside reading" lists a lot also. however, the nature >of >things on the net/mailing lists seems to be an ever-changing >proposition; the >minute you try to capture something, it has a way of >eluding you. hence, the >"bedside reading" was a March theme, and a >strongish one at that. (Loss had >gone so far as to ask if i would "edit" >something to this effect each >month--which i was/would be pleased to do.) >however, it played itself out and >disappeared within a week or two. i put >up calls for more "bedside reading" >lists but recieved no more responses. >so--i let it go. > >if there is still interest, i would certainly continue with my >accumulations, >as long as people post/email "bedside reading" material. >i'm happy to oblige. > >thanks for your interest. > >peace, > >kenny g Kenneth, Well, it's too bad there was such a dearth of response after the first. I thought it was a cool idea and had hoped to see more. Even though I don't get to read probabaly MOST of the mail that this list generates, it remains my **first source of info about books I think I MIGHT want to read**. There aren't many places you can go for that sort of thing. John Krick john and all-- let's fire it up again! for those of you who missed it the first time: my favorite part of vanity fair is when they ask famous people what they are reading before they go to bed at night. instead, wouldn't it be great to hear what people were reading whose minds & ideas we could actually respect? i'm happy to compile a monthly list of recommended/bedside reading lists for all on this list. peace kenny g ============================================================================= Kenneth Goldsmith http://wfmu.org/~kennyg/ kgolds@panix.com kennyg@wfmu.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:28:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: Sappho Reply to: Sappho Ira, Bill Luoma (on this list) has also translated Sappho. Kit Robinson krobinson@bando.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:41:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Bedside reading Books on the windowsill by my bed: First Love and other stories, Ivan Turgenev The Witch, Anton Chekhov Wayfarers, Knut Hamsun The Art of Telling, Frank Kermode Tulsa Kid, Ron Padgett The Silver Dove, Andrey Biely Defoe, Leslie Scalapino Torque #1, #2, #3 The Impercipient #9 (I think) My Trip to New York, Bill Luoma Vexillum, Bob Hale Lapsis Linguae, Marcella Durand And in heavy rotation: The Exact Change Yearbook 1995 cd (esp. Berrigan/Mayer) Love Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:27:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: workside reading I find the books I'm reading broken into 3 distinct PLACES. The first is literally what is on my bedside table. The second is books located on my desk at home. The third is books located at work (as opposed to work-related). The latter books are either in transition to home or are books I read during lunch breaks. I'm at work now and these are the books on my shelf: ZEN BUDDHISM AND PSYCHOANALYSIS (Fromm, Suzuki...) ZEN FLESH, ZEN BONES A DAY AT THE BEACH (Grenier) POESIES (Catullus translated into French) DUSK ROAD GAMES (Grenier) POETAS NORTEAMERICANOS (Blackburn/Corman/Eshleman/Enslin translated into Spanish) SOBRE LA PROSA LITERARIA (Shklovsky in Spanish) TOO HOT TO HANDLE (Juvenile baseball novel for my son Max) THE BEAST 2 (Juvenile horror for my son Max) HAND SHADOWS (TO BE THROWN UPON THE WALL) a republication of an 1859 book of hand shadows (for my brother John in prison--I photocopied the various drawings of hand shadows and sent them to him) HOW TO PITCH (Bob Feller) MODISMOS (Familiar English-Spanish expressions) (by Mrs. Anness. & Mr. Boughton. (a random selection gives us: "That codfish smells to Heaven. Ese bacalao huele a rayos." THE GATELESS BARRIER (Aitken) SOCCER FOR JUNIORS (I'm an assistant coach for my son's team this year) CATULLUS'S COMPLETE POETIC WORKS (RABINOWITZ, tr.) just got this on sale at UCSD bookstore yesterday AREAS LIGHTS HEIGHTS (Eigner) just got this also NOW ZEN (Charlotte Joko Beck) --Don Cheney-- dcheney@ucsd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:48:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Sappho In-Reply-To: <199506231644.JAA22007@lanfill.lanminds.com> from "Kit Robinson" at Jun 23, 95 09:28:57 am If memory serves, Thomas Meyer did translations of Sappho -- & Tom's work should be read more, check out his collection _Sapho's Raft_ from the Jargon Society. ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: current summer reading 1. johanna drucker, dark decade 2. the new yorker 3. bruce robbins, ed. The Phantom Public Sphere 4. weekly rob breszny horoscope 5. a student paper on paul bowles 5. the floating bear compilation 6. daily mpls star tribune horoscope 7. roadmaps to colorado 8. a dictionary of word origins ("slam" "open" etc) 9. various insurance policies so i can be covered during my upcoming sabbatical 10. other randomly fluffy stuff boy o boy, what a usefully humiliating exercise. i better upgrade pronto. thanks. md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 16:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Re: Reading lists In-Reply-To: Well, I've got a few books of interest I've been looking at lately--hope nobody minds if I chime in here... 1. Raising Holy Hell (Bruce Olds) A fictionalized life ofJohn Brown, due out in September. Amazing book--very powerful, though it bogs down in the last fifty or so pages, after Lee and JEB Stuart crash Brown's party at Harpers Ferry. This is by far the best review copy to cross my desk this year... 2. Manuscript Found in Saragossa (Jan Potocki) This was mentioned in Perec's bk (A Void) & just came out in an English translation. Hallucinatory & dense--imagine a new Decameron co-written by Goya & Hoffman, wardrobe by Edith Head, sets by Lautremont... 3. Exact Change Yearbook, At Passages, From the Other Side of the Century: all part of my vacation Michael Palmer festival. Very interesting to hear Palmer read his new Poems. I'd not imagined his voice sounding like it does; the surprise I felt was akin to the first time I heard Creeley or Williams read--how hearing the poets voicing radically changes the way one reads the written work--the way theauthors diction & intonation get somehow ingrained in yourhead & you find yourself internalizing their vocalization. A bit disturbing, that--almost as if the very act of listening to a recording imposes some kind of individualized canonic reading, underming whatever tactical method of poetic speech you've brought to the written text... 4. Passing Duration, Four Lectures: I've always gotten the sensethat Rodefer's work is somehow out there pacing the Langpo boundaries (maybe event horizon is a better term...). Ghosts of events in those sentences, gesturing toward some alien narrative in hopes of arriving at atmosphere--The same thing I feel reading Coolidge sometimes. Is there anything available since Passing Duration that I might have missed? Also, quick question to the G1 folks: does anyone remember a poetry festival at a place called Thomas Jefferson College (now GrandValley State University) near Grand Rapids, MI in the spring of 74? Oppen, Reznikoff, Ed Dorn, Rothenberg(I think he was there..) were all in attendance & the readings & roundtables were all either filmed or recorded on audio. The rumor here is that there are still copies floating around, but no one at the University has the slightest idea where one might get a copy... If anyone attended or remembers seeing or hearing footage from this event, please backchannel me... yrs, Chris ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Scheil > Our life is endless in the way that our visual field cschei1@grfn.org < is without limit. --Wittgenstein snail mail: > 317 Prospect #4 < Let me say this. Neak Luong is a blur. It is Grand Rapids, MI 49503 > Tuesday in the hardwood Forest. I am a visitor ______________________ < here, with a notebook --Michael Palmer _______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 16:38:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Bedside reading Good to see HAMSUN and HALE on Jordan Davis' bedside list-- My own is too over the place now--and like Beckett's "Malone" (or is it MOLLOY) I will have to save my inventory for later----chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:08:03 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: a clove of gender On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 01:22:56 -0500, maria damon wrote: >yo sheila murphy, how can i get hold of your book called a clove of gender? >gary sullivan read from it tonight chez moi and the desert wildflowers part is >gorgiosorooni. in fact, how can i get hold of two copies of the book, cuz i >have a friend who is into poetry and also into western agricultural history who >liked the poems immensely as well. > >best, maria d > > Yes, I just got A Clove of Gender in the mail today. Terrific! Thanks, Sheila. charles charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 18:38:34 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Bedside reading This is Kevin Killian. I'm glad to see this feature return, as I too read Vanity Fair regularly tho' the book list is not my favorite. The true crime articles are. Here is what I've just picked up from around my bed: "Vel" by Peter Inman-fantastic. Four stars to you, P. Inman. We printed one of these poems in"Mirage #4/Period[ical]" but now I see, it was not the best one after all, there are many, many just as good or better! "Castle King Four," by Jim Reagan, who sent me this book, haven't read it yet, don't know why he sent it. He said it was a peace offering. I don't know who he is! Seems to be a novel that pits Nazis against the OSS. "Sliver," by Ira Levin. I read it about every six months. Dodie wrote a paper about it once, for Todd Baron and Carolyn Kemp's zine "REMAP," on "narration." "A zillion times better than the movie," she says. When is the Ira Levin Conference happening? Claude Royet-Journoud, "A Descriptive Method," tr. Keith Waldrop-it's small, I should have finished this last week. Didn't. Just found it. "Berlin Diptychon" by John Yau & Bill Barrette. I'm copying one of the poems here, "The Night Beast is Best," for my new poem, which will have a better title. This book is very luxe, glossy, heavy ink smell, has Berlin written all over me. "Tender Agencies," by Dennis Denisoff. Why this book isn't a best seller I'll never know. Dennis D. is so smart & so accessible. He is a former member of the Kootenay School and from what I understand will be working at Princeton this fall. Yay Dennis. "Abusing the Telephone," by Dennis Barone. We had Dennis B. read at Small Press Traffic where he read some of this. We were screaming, kind of. I mean it was sedate in a way. This is a very fiction collective kind of book, tho published by Drogue. Dennis, any one of these tales could have been a novel, I say, expand, don't contract, be expansive like Whitman. 2 new books by Alice Notley. Haven't opened it yet. Thom Gunn, "The Man with Night Sweats." Thom Gunn is a local hero & a swell guy. This book is his best one yet. "Arshile #4" ed. Mark Salerno. Arshile #4 features an interview with Gilbert Sorrentino. I always wondered why I had never met GS since he works at Stanford and I'm in San Francisco. Now I find that "the Bay Area is so utterly antithetical to me that I find myself, at all times, struggling against its cuteness, its apathy, its general air of paralysis, its relentless small-townishness, so that it's hard to imagine being 'mellowed out' in the throes of battle. I don't quite know what it is about the place, but the entire Bay Area, with the source of infection being, of course, that citadel of provincialism, San Francisco, has the air of an amateur stage production set in sinister natural surroundings." What a jerk. How about that "source of infection" metaphor Mr. Sorrentino? Are we afraid of the AIDS virus at Stanford University? Anyhow Arshile #4 has this wonderful piece in it by Yoko Ono and as usual a marvelous cover, this time by Jasper Johns. Bruce Andrews, "Ex Why Zee," collected, I don't know, work for the "theater"? Black and white drawing on the front, "pathetic masculinity" as the art forum says. "Abject art" my favorite. All these little men running around doing disgusting things, . . . four stars for the cover alone, belongs in the Whitney. "Apex of the M" #3. Read it from cover to cover searching for the explanation from the editors, why on earth they went ahead last time and printed that work by King Homophobe Ed Dorn! No explanation, still. One editor told me that if they explained every editorial policy they made it would be too long a magazine. Fine. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents on this subject. Again. "Everything as Expected," by James Herndon. This book, from the 70's, is the essential insider's guide to the collaboration between Jack Spicer & Fran Herndon. Color plates. Seven of these collages were shown at recent Blaser conference. Five stars. "Tony & Susan," by Austin Wright. I think I got this mixed up with "Austin and Mabel" but instead of being about the relatives of Emily Dickinson it is some kind of literary horror novel. Check it out. I'm up to Chapter Five. "Esther: Her Murder Haunts a Small Town in Oklahoma." True crime book. Esther is a schoolteacher, in her seventies I think, I think she was murdered in her sleep by some former students, but she's just gone to bed just now at the place I've put it down. "Written in Blood," by Caroline Graham. She is my new favorite detective writer. Okay, so the ends of her books are always stupid. "Empire of Words: the Reign of the OED," by John Willensky. This guy teaches at UBC and this book studies the use of citation in the different editions of the OED to come to some conclusions about cultural studies. Work it, girl. Finally I've come to the floor. Okay and one last book I've just finished from the library, "The Juror," by George Dawes Green. had to get this one since it's the basis of the upcoming Demi Moore picture. The back jacket says that Dawes Green is a poet and the author of "the acclaimed novel "The Caveman's Valentine" and he looks about 12. Excellent! George Dawes Green are you on this poetics list? Come on down! Thank you Kenneth Goldsmith for arranging this group. Yours-Kevin K. 1995 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 00:54:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Bedside reading I love these lists also. Although Kevin's has made mine feel inadequate. My excuse is moving. I've been trying to refile but I've also pulled out all these old books that I found while trying to alphabetize: Mary Butts Imaginary Letters; Crystal Cabinet; Traverner Novels; (by the way, any Butts fans out there, would love some info back channel about any good criticism, I haven't found much at all good or bad, and info about the Crowley-Butts connection and her opium addiction (?). Don DeLillo, Libra Keri Hulme, Bone People (which has been abandoned as unreadable) Ben Friedlander (there is an image of a knot for the title) (this is available from Meow Press); recommended Rachel Tzvia Back, Litany (also Meow Press and recommended) Prosodia / 5 (nice mix of writers, mainly west coast; put out by the students of the New College of California Poetics Prog) Bloo (good pieces by Dodie Bellamy and Kevin Killian and Pat Reed) Lesli Scalapino, Defoe (I love this book and have become obsessed with it in the same way that I became obsessed with Fanny Howe's Saving History last year) a large stack of fashion magazines where I have actually been spending most of my reading time I would like it if people on this list would just post a brief message about something good they have read whenever they read it and how to get it. I mean both stuff that is available at any Barnes and Noble and stuff that comes in the mailbox. In more cases than not that usually motivates me to obtain said item and in more cases than not I am glad that I did. Juliana ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 21:55:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: bedside reading list Hi all--here's what's threatening to fall on me and crush me in my sleep: _How Things Work: Science For Young Americans_, a 1941 textbook with some truly freaky illustrations. _Earth and Sky Every Child Should Know_, similar, except w/a 1910 copyright. Mark Twain, _The Innocents Abroad_. Thich Nhat Hahn, _The Blooming of a Lotus_, a wonderful book of simple meditations. Levi-Strauss, _The Savage Mind_. Learned a new word ("moiety") from this one. Means "half." Not a hapax--he uses it twice. A stack of submissions to Antenym, the magazine I edit (#7 due out in August, featuring [at least] George Albon, John Olson, Colleen Lookingbill, Darlene Tate, J.R. Willems, John Taggart, Charles Borkhuis, Michael Basinski, Brian Boury, Andrew Joron, Michael Price, Kristin Burkart, Sheila E. Murphy, Carol Ciavonne, Larry Eigner, Mike Kettner, I.E. Skin, Jean Day, and Bob Heman). Now if I can only figure out in what order to present them! _Six By Seuss_. Of course. And soon-- Buckminster Fuller, _I Seem To Be A Verb_. Soon as I can get my hands on a copy. Sweet dreams! Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:16:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: bedside reading list Okay--I'll chime in--- I'm reading these unpublished manuscripts--- I am extremely knocked out by Ben Friedlander's reading of Frank O'Hara AND YOU BIG NAME PUBLISHERS OUT THERE ARE FOOLS NOT TO JUMP ON IT WHILE YOU CAN---- This is the kind of "literary criticism" one does not see often-- Then I'm reading THE FATE OF THE SELF (By Corngold--first time in paperback of a 1985 book---I'm reading this for possible "academic use" so i'm reluctant to mention it here, as is my reading in Shakespeare criticism--Susan Snyder, H.T. McCrary, etc. etc--- ) Also got the EXACT CHANGE BOOK---The Stein piece (and Spahr's intro.) is great. Peter Gizzi's new manuscript has a great poem to Mark McMorris in it...and I got the new Garret lansing HEAVENLY TREE book... I'm sure I'm leaving things out...I read "Marriage" by Marianne Moore the other day---I often spend a whole night on one page! I read O'Hara's "To An Actor Who Died" because it's original title was "To Laura Riding" and "everybody" is telling me I should read Agamban very soon--- It would be interesting if we could talk more about why we're reading (or what is happening why reading) than merely about WHAT--but perhaps that is not a function of the list....chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:03:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: bucky fuller Am I the only person who sees Charles Bernstein's formatting of the Artifice of Absorption into lines as a totally Fullerian exercise (intended--and successfully--to make the piece the absorbing gesture it so breathtakingly is)? Fuller was a longtime Navy member, was he not? Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:14:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics I've always thought that a good portion of what made the avant-garde so much more interesting than "traditional" poetics (tho I think that the AG is a specific historic tradition in its own right, a historic international "community" in all the senses of identity politics), is that AG poets, by ignoring or breaking "trad" rules, take on the responsibility for any/all elements in the work of art, rather than simply having them "drag on as empty habit." In that sense, Kerouac, say, is a totally rule driven poet (wild form is a Formalism, no?). Whereas more trad poets seem to incorporate vast amounts of stuff into their work without much reason for it being there, so that it tends to sit like old lumpy oatmeal. There's been a discussion of metrics on the CAP-L list for the past month full of anxiety over "correct" interpretations, whether a spondee can be a spondee, whether variation is just that or is a sign of incompetence, etc. So when I hear of a reading such as Charles Alexander described or read a text such as ShaunAnne's, it thrills me to realise that there are people out there who take total responsibility for their rules. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:25:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Reading lists > >2. Manuscript Found in Saragossa (Jan Potocki) This was mentioned in >Perec's bk (A Void) & just came out in an English translation. >Hallucinatory & dense--imagine a new Decameron co-written by Goya & >Hoffman, wardrobe by Edith Head, sets by Lautremont... > In the 1960s, there was a wonderful Polish film mostly (but not entirely, as I recall) in black & white of this same novel, with a great hauting score by Penderecki. Very Borges'ian, a narrative within a narrative within a narrative within.... It used to play at the Central Cedar Cinema off Polk Street (right next to a fire house and the only theatre I've ever been to that was actually in an alley, almost impossible to find if you didn't know it was there) and was a very cult thing. I must have seen it ten times, but it seems (like virtually all European cinema) to have disappeared from American screens. Batman Forever was on 20% of all theater screens in the US last week. Sigh. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 03:29:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: breath rules Never heard Olson live (was in the same room with him only once in my life and that, the Berkeley Poetry Fest of '65, before I knew who he was), but my sense of the recordings I've heard and/or own is that he tended to speed up his reading of any text from slow almost overblown beginning to rapid end. Only a few texts actually follow that format on the page (long lines to open, short to close). Zukofsky (again from recordings) seems to have paused every SECOND line. And then there was the period around 1970 when Duncan paused three beats between each line, marking them with his hand and for awhile even counting them outloud (I remember a series of readings of all of Passages done over 3 consecutive Fridays when he did that throughout--totally distracting). Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 07:17:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: bucky fuller In-Reply-To: <199506241003.DAA16883@ix6.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Jun 24, 95 03:03:02 am No Ron, you're not. Thought the same thing when I first laid eyes on Artifice of Absorption. & I have always loved Bucky's description for his kind of formatting: he called it "ventilated prose." & yes, Bucky was in the navy, circa WWI, in 1918 for sure, until 1922 when he did "US Naval Reserve Activities." BY 1923 water wasn't enough so he took to the air, what he called "Early Flying Actvities." There's a piece of his called _Early Influences_ in which he talks in some detail about his experiences in the Navy. Pierre > > Am I the only person who sees Charles Bernstein's formatting of the > Artifice of Absorption into lines as a totally Fullerian exercise > (intended--and successfully--to make the piece the absorbing gesture it > so breathtakingly is)? > > Fuller was a longtime Navy member, was he not? > > Ron Silliman > rsillima@ix.netcom.com > ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 10:17:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: bucky fuller i'd love to know more either via back channel or publicly how Artifice of Absorption is Fullerian, if you can take the time. burt kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 08:58:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Davis Subject: Re: The Rich Little School of Poetics >Zukofsky (again from recordings) seems to have paused every SECOND >line. Imagining an extremely precise and tidy Groucho Marx will help one recreate Zukofsky's rhythms while reading his poetry. Similarly, Margaret Dumont will give you a very close approximation of Gertrude Stein. (Steven Wright, of course, works for a lot of LangPo.) Ray ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:12:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: bedside reading list I "forget to mention" (or "censored") that I'm also reading a lot of student papers in this summer class i'm teaching. A "reading literature" course that is weighted towards poetry and the reading of "non-poetic" texts "poetically"--I organized the course loosely around the theme of "NOTHING" and have not used official anthologies so i could include Stevens ("Adagia"), Mayer (Sonnets and "the obfuscated poem") O'Hara, Cage, Stein, Riding, Kafka, Beckett, Ellison, Baraka, Ferlinghetti, Dickinson, Shakespeare, Dudley Randall, Blake in one class (also Brecht and Rilke)---I've selfishly swept up my students in my summer reading--but I "commit" to the list and so it's no more "free" in a way than had i gone with a "conventional" commercial anthology---thank "god" for copy shops that 'pirate" things--- Chris S. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 17:37:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Bedside reading In-Reply-To: <950623134126_100913753@aol.com> from "Jordan Davis." at Jun 23, 95 01:41:28 pm Not much at the moment: Two by George Stanley: "You" and "Opening Day". He said to me last night that "Tacoma" was one of the worst hangovers. bill bissett's "Animal Uproar", iwth a wonderful Kerouac tribute in it. Al Purdy's "The Woman on the Shore". You have to be in the mood. Joyce, "Ulysses". It has to be done. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 09:43:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Related Lists I'm trying to add a list of related lists to the EPC so I thought I'd throw out for suggestions what you might see as lists related to these interests. Please let me know what you'd add to this list! (Also, if you have current addresses, that would help. Another thing, the archive address for ht_lit does not seem to work for me?) RELATED DISCUSSION LISTS ------------------------------------------------------- *AVANT-GARDE* avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu (is this one of those listproc and not a listserv?) ------------------------------------------------------- *CAP-L* -------------------------------------------------------- *HT_LIT* ht_lit--the hypertext and literary theory mailing list. This mailing list was created in February 1995 to provide a forum for discussion of hypertext fiction, hypertext and literary studies, and hypertext theory. To subscribe, send an email message to the server: subscribe@journal.biology.carleton.ca with the following body in the message: subscribe ht_lit [
] this will subscribe yourself (or
if specified) to ht_lit. ----- The posting address is ht_lit@journal.biology.carleton.ca ----- Postings to the list will be archived on the web at http://chat.carleton.ca/~kmennie/ht_lit.html ----- The list owner is kmennie@chat.carleton.ca ------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 22:44:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Scheil Subject: Just another poem In-Reply-To: I guess I've lurked long enough, enjoying everyone's efforts. Time to throw something out & hope for the best... Klatch of Mandingos, consumptives gone trolling the swamps for cast-off injection dies sees this & counts coup on that pious oracular gang of tunneler kids I'll portray with an oval of semtex affixed to my head, an elegant toque for this bayou of implicate photon decay, this digitized couplet of glass in the form of a surgical saw. You see? The cognitive mist is only a symbol: fissile, hermetic, as lambent a synod of gnats as you're ever to find in a cloud chamber bowl, glad-handed then shunted then groused like a cup of strontium milk, like a methadone dose in a tumbler of pus. Now even the tutors agree: a deistic fist up the ass of the cynic Lovejoy ain't near impasse enough to preserve this corpse from ballastic decay, from assuming the form of an aerial putsch, cap-a-pied & entangled again in that cloud-like helix of vernacular birds exploding through the cockpit door, their hideous scything librettos deployed like a slew of God's own cochlear tongs. You'd just as soon say what next then to see this end (as it must) in arthritic paroxysyms of guillotine japes: Chop, Chop! The author must fall! Or do (as he will) one last opium trick, diving over the wall in a thrilling escape, though covered with audience mucus & blood to demonstrate his nostalgic devotion to porn-- "its perrenial nature, its ironic gaze, akin as it is to cinema-verite..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Scheil > Our life is endless in the way that our visual field cschei1@grfn.org < is without limit. --Wittgenstein snail mail: > 317 Prospect #4 < Let me say this. Neak Luong is a blur. It is Grand Rapids, MI 49503 > Tuesday in the hardwood Forest. I am a visitor ______________________ < here, with a notebook --Michael Palmer _______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 13:44:35 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Message for cris cheek... >cris, hi: > >can you back-channel me yr e mail address. sorry, i had it but have >misplaced the file > >take care, >carl > >clpeters@sfu.ca Either we're using very different systems or you'll find it in the header of this message. If not it cris@slang.demon.co.uk love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Burt Kimmelman's first question, >is fuzzy logic imprecise[?], has been pretty well answered: it's precise but dangerously arbitrary, guessing at quantifications in order to calculate unknown probabilities. Science needs this tool because it can't do what art can: handle many concerns at once. Burt further asks >is logic teleological by nature? (perhaps asked rhetorically) since Loss's complaint assumes that "logic" necessarily means goal-directed reasoning. Such is logic's usual application, but it consists merely of ways to transform and manipulate statements keeping strict track of their resultant truth values. You could do that all day and still get nowhere. In pursuit of a "Fuller" understanding, I'd like to add that the Buckyism about "in" and "out" instead of "up" and "down" forms part of a more complex observation: No scientist would suggest that any part of the Universe Is identifiable as "up" Nor any other locale as "down." Yet individual scientists themselves As yet reflex spontaneously In an "up" and "down," conditioned-reflex miasma. Their senses say reflexively, "I see the sun is going down," Despite that scientists And almost everyone else have known theoretically For five hundered years that the Sun is not going down at dusk And rising at dawn. What is more important in this connection Is the way in which humans reflex spontaneously For that is the way in which They usually behave in critical moments, And it is often "common sense" to reflex In perversely ignorant ways That produce social disasters By denying knowledge And ignorantly yielding to common sense. --R. Buckminster Fuller, _Intuition_ (New York: Doubleday 1972), 103. You have to clear your mind of *cant*, in other words--but you also have to realize that you finally *can't*, and deal with that. A commonplace? Maybe. But it bears repeating, since we continuously forget. That's one reason there's art. --Jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:09:52 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Jim, As the one who put out the remark about Bucky's use of up, down, in, out, and, indeed, shake it all about, I just wanted to say: thanks for the lovely quotation, illuminating what i was referring to; and sorry if I presented an ignorant write-up of Bucky, because what you posted was what I thought I'd said, Thanks, Ira ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:36:31 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "I.LIGHTMAN" Subject: Re: Bedside reading Just thought I'd chip in, stirred by KK's wonderful list: I don't tend to have books on the go, tend to skim them or read a few pages very intently; recent books thus treated have been - the opening page of Derrida's Signeponge, the autobiographical sections of Derrida's Memoirs of the Blind, bits mostly from the Blue Book in Steve Benson's _Blue Book_ book; Chaucer's The Parlement of Foules, because it looks like Britain's ruling Conservative party is about to elect a new leader and Prime Minister (Chaucer *pretends*, it seems to me, to have a limited view of love as monogamous marriage but offers a fable that is more complex and leaks yearning for a wider love, platonic and/or non-monogamous, also a sense of government that all potential leaders should subdue themselves to, although this, and this is the flaw in all the leaks, doesn't escape positioning women as passive and men as active); have also been reading through all Leave books' latest pamphlets, especially Sianne Ngai's amazing My Novel, and Kevin Killian's Santa. Oh, I have been dipping in and out of the memoirs of the physicist Richard Feynmann's _Surely You're Joking Mr Feynmann?_, which are lucid, chatty words of a extraordinary curious boy in love with practical science, about which subject he would never dream of being as patronising as he is in his book about his three wives; Feynmann is such a relief from the superstring and chaos theory and Stephen Hawking books that so many of the musicians I know seem to be reading, because it's about computation and physical experiment, constructing equipment and making things, not thinking about time or light. Feynmann is the most enjoyable science book I've read since reading Bucky, or Hugh Kenner on Bucky, the next best thing. Also, spent a long morning reading Leo Bersani's infuriating essay "Is the Rectum a Grave?" in _AIDS, Cultural Analysis, Cultural Activism_ ed Douglas Crimp (infuriating because I share some of the critiques and hate others, especially his oh-so-Freudian attack on child abuse campaigners as being anti-sex; read in "anti-rape" for "child abuse" and see how it reads). Also, am in love with Richard A. Bernstein's essay in _Working Through Derrida_, ed Gary B.Madison, in which Bernstein judiciously and warmly anaylses *both* Derrida *and* Habermas fairly, trying to work on the join of modernity and postmodernity in very lucid readable prose. I do tend to have television serials on the go; am currently watching all the Jon Pertwee _Dr Who_ series from 1970-74, the latest _Deep Space Nine_ episodes, the lesser known British sci-fi shows, _Sapphire and Steel_ and _The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_; also the loveable cartoon character Jay Sherman on _The Critic_; my opinion about all of them is we don't make shows like that any more, that passion and high seriousness, complexity of characterisation, and taking the work seriously. That's my list, Ira ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:58:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics i'm trying to recall the name of an icelandic poetic form where the first half of the line makes an assertion and the second half echoes it in different words. would this be a kind of fuzzy logic procedure, and indeed one that calls back to itself and perhaps in essence such a poem proceeds with no end in mind. anyone have any "fuzzy logic" poems? what is the difference betw chaos and complexity (and how does fuzziness work into this relationship? bk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:59:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Jim, Is your explanation about why science needs the fuzzy logic tool and art doesn't in line with Carnap? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:01:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Jim, Re.: your "that's one reason there's art": do you mean that the imaginative procedures of, say, cosmologists are different from those of poets? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Think the Reverse how, steve, the only question now is how. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:25:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Bedside Reading In-Reply-To: <00992745.18DD3FB0.49@admin.njit.edu> Dear PoPeople, I'm new to this list, and I'm intrigued by the bedside reading idea. Although I'd have to disagree with one previous writer (whose message I unfortunately deleted) about lists from people we respect. Information about (or from) people I don't respect is as interesting, and revealing, to me as any other. (Revealing as much about me as anybody else). That said, respect me or no, here's some stuff I've been reading/thumbing through: 1. Rosemarie Waldrop, A KEY INTO THE LANGUAGE OF AMERICA, along with an edition of Roger Williams book of same name (her major "source") I got out of the local Divinity School library. 2. Denis Devlin, COLLECTED POEMS 3. R.C. Lewontin, BIOLOGY AS IDEOLOGY 4. Humberto Maturana & Francesco Varela, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE 5. Magazines: NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS, T.V. GUIDE 6. Palmer, AT PASSAGES 7. Thomas Kinsella, FROM CENTRE CITY, BLOOD AND FAMILY, and AN DUANIARE: POEMS OF THE DISPOSSESSED, 1600-1900, (the last translations from Irish). 8. A history of a local research park I'm proofreading. 9. Henri Lefebvre, THE PRODUCTION OF SPACE somehow this list seems "tame" Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:13:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Reading lists I've been in Russia for 2 weeks and have missed everything! it seems, at least abt 300 of something (messages). I cd have read the entire discussion of "opportunity" and "rules" sure, but... Can someone summarize in abt 25 words what the issue with rules is/was? Nothing is liker a rule than the (supposed) absence thereof. Ditto opportunity. What did I miss? Ron, thanks for mentioning the wonderful '60s Polish movie of "manuscript" - and even more so for recalling the Cento-Cedar Cinema (how it sticks in my mind, anyway). What a great place! What was the movie theatre on Powell just on the Chinatown side of Broadway - different double feature everyday, as I recollect (repeatedly)? Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: breath rules Re: marking the beat with one's hand, a Duncan affect to be sure: I remember when I first arrived in SF (earlyisyh 70's) and started going to poetry readings, and encountered this annoying "sensitive bandmasterism" - I think it took me a year or more to figure out that it identified a Duncan acolyte. An awful lot of leaden music got underlined in that manner, and I'm gonna bet that Bayareans (at least of similar or longer vintage than mine) will be able to reel off who these, then, youngish poets were/are. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: Bucky I'd been trying to decide whether or not to confess to the list that I knew I was ready for graduate school when, in the early 1980s, I was spending my nights sitting up writing a Buckminster Fuller dictionary. Then this came along -- Sandra Braman > Subject: BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S CENTENNIAL SYMPOSIUM AND CELEBRATION > > > For further Information: > > Peter Meisen, Nanci Hartland, Patricia Stevens > GENI (Global Energy Network International) > 425 West "B" Street, Suite B-11 > San Diego, CA 92138 USA > (GENI is a non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation) > Tel: (619)595-0139 > Fax: (619)595-0403 > E-mail: Internet: geni@cerf.net > or America Online: geniproj@aol.com > or Compuserve: 75543.520@compuserve.com > WWW Home Page: http://www.geni.org/ > > > > Buckminster Fuller's Centennial > Symposium and Celebration > "Rediscovering the GENIus in us all" > July 14-16, 1995 > San Diego, California > > DESCRIPTION > > A three day event to celebrate the 100th Birthday of R. > Buckminster Fuller, the "Leonardo Da Vinci of our time." > Events to include: Opening Ceremony and Reception, several > World Game presentations, Benefit Concert, Film Festival, > Bucky for Kids children's festival, Exhibits, Seminars and > Panel Discussions. > > > "For the first time in the history of humanity, it is > evident that there is enough of the fundamental metabolic > and mechanical energy sustenance for everybody to survive at > high living standards" > -- Buckminster Fuller > > BACKGROUND > > R. Buckminster Fuller, Jr. was born in Milton, > Massachusetts, on July 12, 1895. He is best known for > inventing the Geodesic dome, the most famous example of > which was the United States Pavilion at the Montreal World's > Fair, Expo '67. Throughout his lifetime, Fuller introduced > ground-breaking ideas in the fields of architecture, design, > art, engineering, education, cartography and mathematics. > Fuller called himself a "Comprehensive Anticipatory Design > Scientist" -- and committed his life to finding the global > strategies to make humankind "a success in the universe." > > Fuller believed that human evolution could best be promoted > by reforming the living environment through design on all > levels rather than by reforming people through economics > and/or politics. His Design Science also addressed energy > harvesting, transporting and food gathering, all informed by > his concept of dymaxion = dynamic + maximum + tension. > (i.e. ever-increasing performance using ever less investment > of materials.) > > By 1983, at the end of his eighty-seven years, Fuller had > written more than twenty books, held twenty-seven patents > for his inventions and had received forty-seven honorary > doctorate degrees and numerous awards, including the United > States Medal of Freedom and the American Institute of > Architects' prestigious Gold Medal Award. > > Participants will discover, experience and participate in: > > * World Game -- Play on the world's largest and most > accurate map -- the Dymaxion Map scaled to 70' by 35'. > Stride a gymnasium-size map with fellow global citizens, > developing strategies and working together to solve the > world's problems. > > * Film Festival -- Attend screenings of Buckminster Fuller > films -- hear Bucky speak and relive his life's work so you > can use his teachings in your own life > > * "Bucky for Kids" Children's Festival -- Build Tensegrity > Structures (nature's own building blocks) and Dymaxion Domes > -- Learn the basics of "Synergetics" and Buckyballs. > Introduce tomorrow's leaders to the ideas that are shaping > their future. > > * Bookstore -- View Bucky's artifacts, exhibits and books -- > the gifts Bucky left for all of us. > > * Benefit Concert -- Musical greats who share Bucky's vision > for the world. > > * Expert seminars and panels -- Hear personal stories and > lifelong lessons from people who carry on Bucky's work > today. > > This event will engage you in the question that Bucky lived > by: "If the success or failure of this planet, and of human > beings > depended on how I am and what I do; > How would I be? What would I do?" > > > Core Components of the Symposium - Celebration: > > OPENING PANEL, BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION & CELEBRITY RECEPTION > > Friday evening July 14 Venue: UCSD Mandeville Auditorium > > Honorary Chair: Walter Hickel, former Governor of Alaska > > Format: Presentation on stage to theater audience. Several > VIP guests discuss and recall Bucky's influence on their > personal lives, in the world and his relevance today and > into the future. > > * Entertainment to include: > > - Brief video excerpts of Bucky and his ideas shown throughout > the evening > > - Music videos: "What One Man Can Do" (John Denver) > "Fool on the Hill" (Beatles) > - Theater/Dance: Rick Perkins, dramatic presentation of > Bucky > "World Game" dance piece with Dymaxion Map > - Readings: co-authors Peter Wagschal, Anwar Dil > > * Allegra Snyder (Bucky's daughter) and Jaime (Bucky's > grandson) have a special tribute -- this would include > personal stories from family and close friends. On film, > Bucky to sing "Home, Home on a Dome" -- and everyone then > sings Happy Birthday. A toast is delivered, thanking Bucky > for his vision and integrity. > > * A Dymaxion Birthday Cake is presented and pieces cut for > all > > > Discussant/Presenters: > > * Allegra Snyder, daughter of Buckminster Fuller > * Amy Edmondson, author "A Fuller Explanation" (on Synergetics) > * Kiyoshi Kuromiya, adjuvant on "Critical Path" and "Cosmography" > * Harold Kroto, co-founder, Buckminsterfullerene > * Peter Meisen, President, Global Energy Network International > * Eugene Ray, Chairman Environmental Design Department, SDSU > * Don Richter, Temcor (retired) built 5000 domes around the world > * Peter Wagschal, VP, National University, editor with Bucky, "On > Education" > * Anwar Dil, USIU, co-author with Bucky, "Humans in Universe" > > Production Team: > > * Ashley Gardner, The Ashley Gardner Group, Audio/Video Production > > * Doug Jacobs, Artistic Director of San Diego Repertory Theater > * Joel Heathcote, Lighting Artist and Designer > * William Martin, WisdomKeepers Productions > > The WORLD GAMES > > Thursday July 13 (Children and Students) (this is a special > pre-centennial event) > Venue: UCSD Mandeville Auditorium > > Saturday July 15 (Adult and Student) Venue: SDSU Peterson Gym > Sunday July 16 (Invitational -VIP) Venue: SDSU Peterson Gym > Sponsor: > SDSU Environmental Design Dept. > > The World Game is a multi-media event. The participants > become the world's leaders, regional citizens, news > reporters, business moguls and representatives of > international organizations such as the World Bank and > United Nations. Armed with the latest data, equipped with > food, natural resources, money, energy, technology and > military expenditures as they are distributed in the world > today, players stand on the most accurate map of the world, > the Bucky Dymaxion Map scaled out to 70' x 35' (the size of > a basketball court). > > Left to negotiate with neighboring and far away nations to > find global solutions for local problems, participants are > quickly engaged in a fast-moving interactive simulation > where global problems are identified, addressed and solved, > leaving participants with a new understanding of world > issues. Since they began with Buckminster Fuller over > twenty years ago the World Game Institute has continued to > hold this game in more than 30 countries around the world. > > > "BUCKY FOR KIDS" -- a Children's Festival and > Bookstore/Exhibit > > Saturday and Sunday July 15 - 16 Venue and Sponsor: San > Diego Natural History Museum > > Two Components: > > 1. An Exhibit of Buckminster Fuller's Artifacts and Bookstore outside > the San Diego Natural History Museum: > > * Models, Artifacts from the Buckminster Fuller Institute > * Dome and structural modellers to bring their artifacts > * Fuller's books, Dymaxion Maps, etc. sold in bookstore > * Display of Windstar environmental technologies > * Computer Animation of the Global Energy Grid > > 2. A Children's festival surrounding the big tree outside the Museum > to include: > > * Building dymaxion models and geodesic domes > * Making dymaxion map puzzles and playing games with their maps > * Soccer balls used to teach about Buckminsterfullerenes > (Buckyballs) > * Children's mural > * Balloon makers creating tensegrity structures for children's > hats, etc. > * Face painting with dymaxion designs > > SPECIAL GUEST SEMINARS > > Saturday and Sunday, July 15 - 16 Venue and Sponsor: > National University > > * Amy Edmondson on "Synergetics: Nature's Mathematics and > Structure". Amy is author of A Fuller Explanation, a > layman's understanding of Bucky's math -- simple enough for > a child, important enough for every scientist. Nature's > geometry is the basis for the mathematics that explains the > universal building systems -- from the atomic to the > galactic scale. > > * Kiyoshi Kuromiya (adjuvant to Fuller on two books) and > Graeme Edwards "Critical Path discussion group. Fuller's > culmination of his life's thinking, "humanity does have the > option to survive if we choose a comprehensive anticipatory > design science revolution." > > * Don Richter, Michael Jantzen, Eugene Ray, Peter Pearce, > Jay Baldwin (all leading edge designers) from the > architectural community on "Architecture, Space and > Environmental Design". The geodesic dome is the world's > most lightweight, strong and portable structure ever > designed. These architects/designers begin with the > philosophy, "reform the environment and not the man", and > take Bucky's ideas of structure into housing and regional > planing for the next century. > > * Harold Kroto, University of Sussex, co-founder of the > Buckminsterfullerenes i.e. "Buckyballs" -- the molecular > breakthrough of the decade. Fuller predicted the discovery > of the Carbon 60 molecule, since nature would clearly have > this structure in its repertoire. Buckyballs have > tremendous potential in the fields of lubricants and > superconductors. > > * Peter Meisen on the "Global Electric Energy Grid" -- > Bucky's number one priority for the planet from the World > Game. GENI conducts education and research into the > international and inter-regional transmission of > electricity, with a specific emphasis on the interconnection > of renewable energy resources to improve the quality of life > for everyone. > > * Wayne Morgan and Blair Singer on "Generalized Principles > of Universe Applied to Business". Precession, leverage, > synergy and duality will be presented and experienced. > "Since energy plus knowledge are always increasing, human's > wealth is forever expanding." > > * Barbara Marx Hubbard on the "Spiritual, Social, and > Scientific Fulfilment of Buckminster Fuller's Vision through > Conscious Evolution". Bucky's vision blends scientific > progress, ephemeralization (doing more with less), and > spiritual interconnectedness with humanity's opportunity "to > make the world work for everyone." > > * Video excerpts from "The Future of Business", and > discussion with Randy Craft (Dr. Fuller called this video > library "the most concise recapitulation of my entire life's > activities ever delivered before humans to date.") > > Each of the above workshop/presentations are half and full > day sessions. Given the anticipated interest, some > sessions will be repeated a second time. > > FILM FESTIVAL > > Saturday and Sunday July 15 - 16 Venue and Sponsor: > Reuben H Fleet Space Theater > > Honorary Chair: Tony Huston, film maker > > Continuous screenings of: > > * "Buckminster Fuller and Spaceship Earth," a 60 minute > tour de force documentary on the thinking of Buckminster > Fuller, produced by award winning film-maker Robert Snyder > > * "Ecological Design - Inventing the Future," 18 > designer/architects including Dr. Fuller present ideas, > prototypes and models of appropriate technology and > ecological design. Produced by Chris Zelov and Brian Danitz > > > DYMAXION CAR > > Saturday and Sunday, July 15 - 16 Venue: San Diego > Automotive Museum > > In 1933, Buckminster Fuller designed and built three > Dymaxion Cars. They were energy efficient, lightweight, > aerodynamic and recyclable. Compared to the Model Ts of the > day, this automobile design was decades ahead of its time. > Built by the 4D Company in Bridgeport, CT, this is the only > Dymaxion car in existence today and is normally shown at the > National Auto Museum in Reno, NV. > > We are fortunate to have this one-of-a-kind vehicle -- as > one artifact that illustrates Buckminster Fuller's > comprehensive anticipatory design science thinking. > > > BENEFIT CONCERT > > Saturday Evening July 15 Venue: Humphrey's by the > Bay > > Several major artists had a close affinity with Buckminster > Fuller and wrote songs about him and his work: > > * Invitations have been sent to several major artists to > perform in honor of Bucky's Centennial Celebration > > * Celebrity artists invited to play the World Game > > * Large Dymaxion Map as stage backdrop. Screens on stage > view Bucky photos > > * All concert coordination, promotion, ticketing handled by > local promoter > > * Potential to tape for future national broadcast > > > EVENT SYMPOSIUM/CELEBRATION PARTICIPANT COST > > * Registration of $150 for a three day event includes: > Opening Celebration, World Game, Benefit Concert, Film > Festival, Children's Festival, Guest Seminars > > * Students pay half price > > * Events will also be listed and priced separately > > * All registrants to pay for own travel and lodging > > Possible Additional Components being considered: > > * Uplink or simulcast various parts of the event for > distribution through learning channels, cable and public > broadcasting. This could raise additional funds. To be > done with assistance of local stations. Possible > broadcasters: KPBS, ITV and National University > > * Production and documentation of events (audio, video and > written) > > * Andrew Long and Company perform their "Nine Chains" > theater and dance > > EVENT PRODUCTION: > Executive Producer: Peter Meisen > Coordinating Producer: Nanci Hartland > Volunteer Coordinator: Patricia Stevens > Volunteer team: 60 to help with Marketing and Logistics > Fiscal Agency: GENI to handle all accounting and > registration > > MARKET RESEARCH: > > Who's the market? > * all former students, those who saw Bucky speak or bought his > books > * membership of the sponsoring organizations > * all related associations and organizations > Why are they going to come? > * reconnect with the experience that Bucky created in their > lives > * learn more of his design science thinking > * celebrate Bucky's genius and his vision for the world > * commit to "what each individual can do" > What's in it for them? > * meeting with like minded people from around the world > * encounter cutting-edge thinkers, educators and leaders > * expanding one's ability to do creative and innovative original > thinking by studying the educational thought processes of > Buckminster Fuller > * learning the progress of Bucky's ideas becoming real in the > world > * "rediscover the genius in themselves" > What's the cost? > * $150 -- an excellent value for a three day event (Students > half > price) > * participants to cover travel and lodging > Who's the Program Committee? > * This is made up of members of the Sponsor group and Production > Team > > CENTENNIAL EVENT SPONSORS > > Auto Trader Magazines Critical Path Project > Diego and Son Printing Robert Driver Insurance Company > Global Energy Network International HPCwire > KNSD TV Channel 39 The Light Connection > National University Peace Resource Center of San > Diego > Reuben H. Fleet Space Theater San Diego AIA (Architects) > San Diego Earth Times San Diego Natural History Museum > SDSU Environmental Design Dept Shapery Enterprises > Society for Computer Simulation SuperCamp/Learning Forum > Union Bank World Affairs Council > > In cooperation with the Buckminster Fuller Institute > > Global Energy Network International (GENI) is a tax exempt, > IRS 501(c)(3) organization in the United States. We conduct > education and research into the international and inter- > regional transmission of electricity, with a specific > emphasis on the interconnection of renewable energy > resources to improve the quality of life for everyone. > > In his book "Critical Path", Buckminster Fuller calls the > interconnection of renewable energy resources the planet's > "highest priority global objective." > > GENI's work is founded on the principles of the World Game. > GENI's mission is to accelerate the attainment of the > optimal sustainable energy solutions in the shortest > possible time for the peace, health and prosperity for all. > > For further information on the Fuller Centennial Symposium > and Celebration contact: > > Peter Meisen > Nanci Hartland > Patricia Stevens > GENI (Global Energy Network International) > P O Box 81565 > San Diego, CA 92138 USA > TEL: 619-595-0139 > FAX: 619-595-0403 > > Email: Internet: geni@cerf.net > or America Online: geniproj@aol.com > or Compuserve: 75543.520@compuserve.com > > WWW Home Page: http://www.geni.org/ > > > GLOBAL ENERGY NETWORK INTERNATIONAL > Peter Meisen > P.O.Box 81565 > San Diego, CA 92138 > > (619) 595-0139 > FAX: (619) 595-0403 > > ======================================================= > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | CRTNET is edited by: | > | | > | Tom Benson | INTERNET: t3b@psuvm.psu.edu | > | Dept. of Speech Communication | BITNET: T3B@PSUVM | > | Penn State University | FAX: 814-863-7986 | > | 227 Sparks Building | OFFICE: 814-865-4201 | > | University Park, PA 16802 USA | HOME: 814-238-5277 | > | | DEPT: 814-865-3461 | > | | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | BACK ISSUES | > | Back issues of CRTNET may be obtained from two sources. | > | (1) LISTSERV@PSUVM archives CRTNET; if you are able to use | > | interactive messaging, try TELL LISTSERV@PSUVM HELP to get | > | started; for an index of CRTNET files, try TELL LISTSERV@PSUVM | > | INDex CRTNET. 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All topics relating to the general area of human | > | communication are welcome. | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > ** END OF CRTNET ** > ************************* > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Bedside Reading In-Reply-To: Right, add to previous message, forgot book #10 (slipped between two notebooks in my bookbag, most central of the lot just now) 10) Descartes, DISCOURSE ON METHOD and MEDITATIONS (central b/c I'm writing a poem which cuts-up the DISCOURSE) Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:52:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Night Swimming In-Reply-To: <88278.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 22 Jun 1995, Charles Alexander wrote: > > > > > I'm not certain about that quote, although Zukofsky did say that in poetry, > emotion is a matter of cadence. I don't have at hand the exact phrasing. --nice. And come to think of it I think WW was talking about metre as what we need to control emotion--more similar. --ShaunAnne > > charles > > charles alexander > chax press > minnesota center for book arts > phone & fax: 612-721-6063 > e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 18:49:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Reading lists >What was the movie theatre on Powell just on the Chinatown >side of Broadway - different double feature everyday, as I >recollect (repeatedly)? > >Tom Mandel > That was the Times Theatre. Every doubleheader cost 99 cents and I spent a fortune at that place. When it was replaced by a Chinese produce market, I was amazed to see how small it was. (I used to see Francis Ford Coppola there back in the early 70s, all by himself in the back.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:22:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Think the Reverse Wow: >how, steve, the only question now is how. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 14:12:03 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Reading lists Dear Tom Mandel , re" rules " etc I can on the instant recall no clear conclusions, through normal forgetfulness, I hope. To add to the confusion here is an after-note, by means of some fairly well-cooked English translation of Andre (acute) Felibien (acute on first e) secretary of the Academie (acute) Royale de Peinture et Sculpture etc etc of Louis XIV in the Preface to the Entretiens. 1. In practice he found out that "one meets a thousand difficulties in the execution of a work, that cannot be overcome by the learning imparted by all the precepts". (1725, ed. p,.25, Garland reprint) 2. "If there is a way of making the different parts of a painting appear advantageously, giving to each its proper strength, beauty and gracefulness, it is a means that does not consist in rules that can be taught, but it is discovered by the light of reason, and in this matter one must sometimes conduct oneself in opposition to the rules." (ibid.p.26). (He is talking about the composition of the whole, worked out in advance of the "execution" of it...) Thus the problem in the later 17th century formulation of a rationale for instruction of aspiring painters in how to compose history paintings (and elsewhere for composing epic). It implies, I suppose, a function for the resulting pictures: they are usually big, to be seen at a distance, and such that the moral shall be clearly seen, quickly and easily in all and any of the details, not least of which is an insistence on lucid rational structures of representation. Moreover, within the early academy every picture comes to be looked on as a staging of a coherent moment of time as in a drama. (as I recall, by the 3rd Earl of Shaftesbury in ?1713) Best ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:39:37 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 25 Jun 1995 to 26 Jun 1995 In-Reply-To: <95Jun26.180735hst.11352(6)@relay1.Hawaii.Edu> I, too, really like the "bedside reading" feature of the list. Here are some that are, actually, closer to the couch: 1) VOLCANO, by Garrett Hongo, in which he recounts his search for the Big Island childhood he never had. An honest attempt, woefully written (he puts Keats and Shelley in a cuisinart and pours the remains over fields of lava). 2) THE WINGED SEED, Li-Young Lee. A memoir/prose poem about growing up in Indonesia and rural Pennsylvania, as the son of a Chinese fundamentalist Christian father. Interesting experiment, which most often works, except when he addresses his beloved. 3) TURNING JAPANESE, David Mura. Yes, there's a theme here. Memoir of an Asian-American poet from Minnesota who lived for a year in Japan; interesting "identity" study. I like his prose better than his poetry, which sounds more like, well, prose. 4) DICTEE, Theresa Hak Kyung Cha. Memoir in experimental pieces, which I haven't yet finished. But there's a strong article on her by Shelley Wong in _Feminist Measures_, edited by Lynn Keller and Cristane Miller (Michigan)--good on the "problem" with Asian-American experimental writing and identity politics. 5) Lots and lots of Gertrude Stein. 6) XENIA, by Arkadii Dragomoschenko. Wonderful meditative passages. 7) CANNIBAL, by Terese Svoboda. OK, so she's a friend of mine. I heard her read sections of this book about her travels in the Sudan at our new Barnes and Noble; they put her in the cookbook section. 8) Poems by Sudesh Mishra, a poet from Fiji who lives in Australia. Rather Walcottesque in its metaphorical density; his claim is, however, that this work IS experimental in his context. I also confess to an over-fondness toward Nirvana's Unplugged cd, though I'm perhaps too late for the rock lyric discussion of a while back. Great rendering of a Leadbelly song. Enough for now; keep the lists coming! Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:18:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden <74277.1477@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: breath rules Only saw Olson read once, at Berkeley Poetry Conference July 12-23, 1965 (or so it says here on my "admission card," which I've somehow managed to schlep through the decades). No memory of him pausing after lines, although that wasn't a very representative reading--was it? I was too young (17) to really read all the social subtexts going on, just knew that the Don Allen anthology was coming fabulously alive around me. I do seem to recall an indignant Duncan storming out... Also: happy Frank O'Hara's birthday (June 27)--he would have been 69 today. --Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 09:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 25 Jun 1995 to 26 Jun 1995 In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > > 4) DICTEE, Theresa Hak Kyung Cha. Memoir in experimental pieces, > which I haven't yet finished. But there's a strong article on her by > Shelley Wong in _Feminist Measures_, edited by Lynn Keller and Cristane > Miller (Michigan)--good on the "problem" with Asian-American experimental > writing and identity politics. > > the most beautiful piece of "criticism" or commentary on this work is _Excerpts from Dikte for Dict e_ by Walter K. Lew, available from SPD I think. it's a "critical collage," with intertexts, photos, movie stills, just gorgeous. there's also a book called something like "writing nation, writing self," or some such, put out as a companion volume to dictee by the third woman press, edited by elaine kim and someone else. it's a volume of critical essays on dictee. but walter's book is breathtakingly beautiful, not a standard work of "criticism" at all. md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: bedside reading recommended for bedside reading and also for when you are considerably more alert: "The Great Limbaugh Con and Other Right-Wing Assaults on Common Sense" by Charles M. Kelly Santa Barbara: Fithian Press, 1994 (14.95 at Barnes & Noble) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Bedside Reading bedside reading this week includes autobiography of annie besant, james wilhelm's new anthology of gay poetry from antiquity, various motorcycle mags, alice notley's new book, travel guide to italy (for dreams), book on egyptian art, huysman. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:18:35 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Reading lists Bedside, officeside, studyside readings: 1. Nathaniel Mackey - _Discrepant Engagement_ and _School of Udhra_ 2. Golf Digest 3. Video: John Coltrane: The Coltrane Legacy (includes cuts with Eric Dolphy) 4. bpNichol - The Martyrology - long-term reading, have made my way through books 7&8 and am dipping into the 9th & last 5. Zukofsky _A_ - another long-term reading; oddly enough found the first 100 or so pages not so hot (as in what's the big deal here?) though now into A-12 ok I see the big deal.... 6. Creeley - _Windows_ 7. _Larry Rivers_ - big retrospective book of paintings 8. Barbara Guest _Selected Poems_ 9. Emily Dickinson 10. Gil Ott - _Wheel_ - a beautiful Chax Press book (beautiful work both by Gil & by Charles Alexander!) 11. Northwestern University Press's _Stein Reader_ Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:31:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Doom Patrols (Reading list) As long as I'm giving out URLs, one of my summer reading books is not yet in print and only available on-line, Steve Shaviro's "Doom Patrols." It can be found at . Based on the chapters I've read so far, I highly recommend it to anyone on poetics list. It's not, and not about, poetry, but it's the first prose book I've read in a while that's given me the same buzz as the all-over, personal inner-mind sprawl of many recent longpoems. "Doom Patrols" is an autobiographical work of literary theory; a rich blend of gender theory, electronic culture, comic books & films, true confessions, (very) revisionist post-structuralist thought, rock & roll, self-exposition, new (&old) abjectionists) and more. Chapter titles include: David Cronenberg, Kathy Acker, Dean Martin, Daniel Paul Schreber, Walt Disney, Cindy Sherman, et al. Chris Stroffolino and others who were discussing criticism about pop music forms a while back, might find Shaviro's chapter Bilinda Butcher, about the band My Bloody Valentine, to be of interest. I don't just read one thing at a time, but this post is already too long, so I'll save the rest of my summer reading list for another time. Bests, Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:43:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: bedside reading I'm in the middle of revising a book length manuscript on medieval lit. so i won't include the "stuffy" reading surrounding my bed. but other things include: Richard A. Lanham, THE ELECTRONIC WORD: DEMOCRACY, TECHNOLOGY AND THE ARTS The latest New York Review of Books (article by Kempton on THE SECRET WORLD OF AMERICAN COMMUNISM; and I hope to get to Menand's review of Gass's THE TUNNEL) The latest issue of Nutrition Action Newsletter (great summer fruit soup recipes) Rochelle Owens, RUBBED STONES I'm afraid that's it. - Burt Kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:56:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Scroggins Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: <01HS750HD7IQ9OYCP7@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> I'm a sucker for bedside reading lists (and desert island lists, and really all sorts of lists). Leon Howard's biography of Herman Melville; way out of date, but beautifully printed. Richard Ellmann's Joyce biography. Erwin Panofsky's Studies in Iconology. Christopher Hill's Milton and the English Revolution. Louis Untermeyer's unintentionally hilarious anthology of Robert Frost poems. Gil Sorrentino's Aberation of Starlight. Hugh Kenner's The Counterfeiters (again). Various offprints from various friends and acquaintances. The latest Talisman, and (of course) Ed Foster's book of poems. Mark Scroggins ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:31:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Bucky Fuller For those who are interested in R Buckminster Fuller, I've run across references to an e-mail mailing list, geodesic-list, that focuses on his work. I haven't subscribed so I don't know how active it is, but the FAQ, drawn mostly from postings to geodesic-list, was interesting enough. To subscribe send the message to . Yes, oddly enough, geodesic-list also comes out of SUNY-Buffalo. The address for the Bucky FAQ is . I can't tell the difference in this font, so perhaps I should note that the second unit of this URL is a zero, not the letter . Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:04:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: The imaginative procedures of cosmologists On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Burt Kimmelman wrote: > Re.: your "that's one reason there's art": do you mean that the imaginative > procedures of, say, cosmologists are different from those of poets? Considering this proposition, I surfed over to the NASA web page and came up with the following: THE IMAGINATIVE PROCEDURES OF COSMOLOGISTS higher level conclusions surfaced NASA is defining and executing a new way of doing business not some vision on the distant horizon farming-out is a reality management/transition plan "farming-out process" critical management across the entire life cycle (through development operations utilization) total erosion of the NASA skill base to assure quality products -- Complexity of the automation implementation and the stability of the process to be automated must be weighed against the return on the investment there is a requirement for human/decision intervention the process is unstable the way-of-doing business make certain skill levels obsolete long-time "accepted decompositions" delivery of an unusable system (costly ops) Cow's [sic] can cause. (word salad from the second NASA workshop on mission operations, "Hunting Sacred Cows"). Obviously, cosmologists and poets have similar imaginations ;-). Seriously, though, the question of "reasons for art," like most talk about the aesthetic or other justifications/sacralizations for poetry, makes my eyes glaze over. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 12:21:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Doom Patrols (Reading list) Herb, Steve Shaviro is a friend of mine--he's the person who told me to get on the net--late one night in a bar in Seattle. The rest is history. But, beyond *Doom Patrols,* which is great, I think Steve has the best home page I've ever seen. I could spend hours there. Did you check out the stuff for his Electronic Culture class? Steve is amazing--you should also check out his book *The Cinematic Body.* I pastiched part of it in my final letter from Mina Harker. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 16:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JOEL KUSZAI Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: txt: Report on Community (Vancouver & Minneapolis) NOTE: I've been travelling between Michigan and Vancouver and Minneapolis before returning here to Buffalo and haven't had access to my e- mail. Soon I will travel to the EPC to check out what I missed. In the interim, here's my contribution to the Vancouver poetry conference and as well my take on what I believe to be a crisis in contemporary life and poetics (at least for me). Report on Community for Robin Blaser, J.L. Nancy, and the poetic communities of Vancouver and Minneapolis. "not community to which at stake the fact of people 1. technopolitical And what retreats from tends to reveal And not to argue to sameness in the itself is anonymity this conception of the "common another subject would sublate me for any ability on its part as appearing this specifically designates community: they are shared, their singular beings as singularity, paper, to distribute share as a essential formulation of the question as something which is "unworked" between it and itself." (27) authoritites: made up divisions beyond avoid despair it would not be the very historical moment women, be work, or dominion" not incompatible with be left without being able to the existence be This is undoubtedly not the together fulfilled infinite identity of community is be able, at the end of this A Tentative be: "Can the law of being without another because it resists and becauses it makes because finitude is communitarian and because it cannot be whose belonging been in no way as appears, it presents itself between the much more piercing and dispersed beyond social enough for social praxis? 2. The first part the sociopolitical, a claim and a substantiality productive. simple happiness as comes and not the "exteriority of a product" against which I pose more simply and even more accused of nihilism of a willful and real reinscription of alone; in relation to which, and as such, is its impossibility. All of which feeding into historical although I dont want to down-play would (and be irresponsible) Being in common means to bemoan the "loss of community," a tendency (if not directly)work of being-together failure of one may give (x). definitions of terminology or philosophical subsumption, a mutuality confronts lovers with a study by Blanchot married to Eurydice a "part" imperative the wake of society. a continuous presence in the work, such as communication to apprehension and perception "that the 'old' abolishes limit and suppositionless and ideas about whenevers of that construction: what it does about community. 3. The community itself arises like a sub-stance to be in Cartesian touch is receptive to what is at causes. Thus, according to this view, celebrated we belong, the naming center "gravest and question whether the center of this question, then, is the logic of this the Inoperative "individual common--which is that lack of exposed, in communication, eroded the possibility of between gods, the cosmos, animals, beings to one another ... (38) Since one cannot escape this logic living absconditus--to be measured named in abstraction we are most obviously What is at Stake 4. Communication with the my death is my communication. individual freedoms operating as communication. It is itself as communion--but joy--even in its turn is a Communism, as Sartre said, "the communitarian minimum in the social akin disappears, giving way to communitarian." (26-27) community can occur from without for contagion revealed constantly turning limit I community But community not sublate the finitude it exposes by submitting its peoples formulation community itself absorbed into a common example and other oppressed communities be formulated all which would community is the natural necessity the community exists partly in the "in-common," community of those who dangerously--and in community finitude itself opens, shares the confines." community does not consist in the community of two is not the identity of the general In community, extremity of sharing that finitude provides work of community This outside it and from without simple association the motto of the Republic They are poised at the love peoples who in their imaginations may comprise this formulation we "wasting away" compearance exposed or what "impersonality of the conceived of oneself (i.e. as belonging to a concept a fundmental that the individual (perhaps traditional political consequences requires the 'members' have consideration. My construction of existences consists of its sharing because this when constantly nothing is constitute by what "we call constituted through knowledge constituted not only a fair mentioned constitution consists of or what it constrasts, as a limit does not proceed from construction resorts to the nature of the word construction of love in/upon the contemporary thought 5. death the work is interior to the discussion of death we are serviced by this question of "alone" death of the individual, no longer having, in any death by community (and therefore the death) neither death nor because it would place deconstructive position of violence--a mystical definition freedom of adequate discussion of what constitutes the totality of the Being always presents itself at a hearing and before the always presents itself being-in-common and as an earlier question) that segmentation is always an edge of violence which analysis sets Toward dislocations, disruptions, something, which myself, distinct from society (a sameness, as distribution "destructive" of political division doubt more determining a political and social drawn to a complex of questions drowning in the instant of intimacy. We know that the community construction of essence empires--perhaps just as unrelated a people from a formless ground only essences of such a community exists (such ethical construction, anything can be ethical is destroyed and not as even in its isolation or at the limit, forget questions about the formation of form in any empirical or ideal place loses the forms trying to write it out. This violence founds community. Contrary to a framework writing the hypostasis retains little to surmount unraveling that occurs 6. Love does not complete is not helplesslessness we expect addressing this question: "what is here is the "retreat" of historical analysis the singular being (27) history the community finitude itself must hope to find (in tentative formuation) splintering ideological correlatives of the ceaseless upheavals ideologies of there is no individual). It exposes community as immanent no communis con deus barbarism the death of each one deconstructive is always expressed as meaning in having died simply surrounds it escapes the logic of the political and this type of general, any discussion of its glory would need to be able to say finitude would be difficult to the dispersed liberal would merely be a mechanics of force should be and speech can unravel society edge itself substance could ever be taken hold of the fear that The kiss, in spite of everything, is not speech it shared the veiled resistance to a closed system somthing which is not work, but moment of love revealed physical to the validity or invalidity of finitude of loving immanence and rhetoric of community shares a distracted commitment not of whisphers On the contrary, love, provided it is not itself what would be completely what one would hope no part moves democracy to resolve the conflict particular communities themselves identify the attempts to recusitate new pertinent political theoreticians preceding philosophical language anterior to any philosophy calls this is truly ironic that we own philosophy's reductive totalizations and their exigency politics: 'left' means, at the very least, the positing of Community isn't some position that I hold this is why it is haunted by principally of the sharing, diffusion, individuation detaches closed produced a community made of retreats in the face of Rousseau: ruins of a community. 7. singularity the regulation 'of'--the genitive of singularity of their love of community. But as singularity that is then here both empty sharing is explicit, society as syntax, perhaps we can discover technopolitical dominion and thereby the only terms the individual has The face of the very mean an essence of the confines of singularity in the contemporary ("post-industrial") world the work of sharing of finitude, or more exactly, unwitting collusion within being-the-one-with-the-other to which we are exposed being-with (with-being) and the expression/exposure of the beings and as such it is itself a finite of the communal for most of us but the the discussion of community or "what the terms of the discussion discourse on community begins for them to foreclose they the bonds of social interaction open subsumed within what is beyond such wasting each other gives rise appears or compears (com-parait) The societal formulations from a desire for what she calls radical the remaining possibilities or community within (opposed to a society, etc.). What does it within the finite limits of our own "singular" without getting into vulgarizations that may the word 'in' expose to the substance but rather word important among these senses the work now forms the possibility of ever arriving work of place of something for which we have work (it can be neither subject nor object) work. But in fact it is the work the working community would mistakenly name ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:00:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: I'm on the road (talking in LA) so my reading's what I have here: Heiner Muller, Material (just got it in German to correlated with the English texts of his I've read - his writing continues to amaze), the three new translations of Michel Serres' work (which has always affected my own), the new James Ellroy, Kroker's Spasm, and Inside the Information Super- highway, one of my course books, by Nicholas Baran, simple, up-to-date, thorough.. Alan looking forward to the new Annette Messager show and catalog at LACMA - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:47:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Ira-- Responding to Burt's clear-eyed questions about logic, I thought I saw a chance to do my favorite net-thing, which is tie, weave, or otherwise braid various conversational threads together. In this case I did it clumsily indeed, if I came off as saying "Look, here's something ignorant Ira missed." What I'd rather hoped to say was something more like "Look, here's a way in which Fuller's observation, recently, perceptively noticed by Sorry-I-forget -whom (i.e. you), reinforces a poetically useful sense of what logic, smooth or fuzzy, is and ain't." At the same time, I thought (reflexively?) that what Fuller says in that passage--about "common sense" putting very frequent pitfalls in everyone's path, no exception for me nor thee--bears a lot of repeating, but not because I suppose it to be big news to you, informed and accomplished as you are. More like ballplayers keeping up the chatter on the baseball diamond, constantly reminding one another of what they already know. "Play's to third." "He's a whiffer." It helps, no? --Jim Ira wrote: > >As the one who put out the remark about Bucky's use of up, down, in, out, >and, indeed, shake it all about, I just wanted to say: thanks for the >lovely quotation, illuminating what i was referring to; and sorry if >I presented an ignorant write-up of Bucky, because what you posted was >what I thought I'd said, > >Thanks, > >Ira ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 18:04:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: bedside reading--and reverse thinking Comments: To: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: --sorry to worry this like a puppy w/ an old shoe, but-- as I take my PhD comps in August, my bedside reading is a little. . . um--perverse?!--right now--and today as I was reading Derrida I found this: "One goes from blindness to the supplement. . . . Blindness to the supplement is the law. ANd especially blindness to its concept. Moreover, in order to see its meaning, it is not enough to locate its functioning. The supplement has no sense and is given to no intuition. We do not therefore make it emerge out of its strange penumbra. We speak its reserve." So--writing is always already thinking in reverse? Supplement (words) have no meaning in and of themselves, only when we re-apply presence/self to them do they/can they mean--but they are at first our escape from presence/self--? hmmm. . . I knid of like this--writing is always already thinking in reverse. . . back to the books! ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 18:33:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Reading lists In-Reply-To: <766BF8E2658@as.ua.edu> from "Hank Lazer" at Jun 27, 95 10:18:35 am inspired by all that's out there, here's my list fr the month: _the presocratics_, by philip wheelwright. a general text chosen fr its contextualizing approach. interested in pursuing pythagoreanism and cont. art. might have some value _on christian doctrine_, st. augustine -revelations of divine love_, julian of norwich -the temple-, george herbert: interesting -- i found a copy of _the temple_ in the UBC bkstore a few days before the blaser conference. colin browne presented a paper on herbert there which was incredible! timing is everything everything and anything by bpNichol. re reading bk 1 for the 3rd or 4th time. the first few pages always astound me! everything he does in the other bks is set down there: "premonition of a future time or line we will be writing" ... "a future music moves now to be written" ... _the surrealist parade_, by wayne andrews (i'm certain he's the author: just picked it up at a used bkstore. it looks like it's written part documentary/part journal, which is why i bought it. it also contains some hugo ball quotes which i've never come across previously ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:41:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Burt K. writes: > >Jim, > >Is your explanation about why science needs the fuzzy logic tool and art >doesn't in line with Carnap? > Not sure I could sort out a pedigree for this notion. I get my sense of what logic is first from reading Quine (who often takes issue with Carnap), then from Peirce and Dewey. Taken as a whole, it's a discipline relating more directly to statements than to states of affairs. Sorry, whosever eyes glaze on this stuff . . . Logic is one of the ways people deal with questions in the spirit of "If it's safe to say P, then what else is safe to say?" Logic goes at this by way of analyzing grammatical transformations. As to what is safe to say in the first place, we look elsewhere than to logic for that (with an important exception: logic looks for instances where P is safe to say merely because all sentences with the same grammatical form P are safe to say, like "I only drink when I'm alone or else with somebody," which must be true, or safe to say, but only trivially). In this sense, logic is a game (or maybe a playing field) where one of the ground rules is "say one thing at a time." This ties it in with what I've called science, a method applying logical procedures to investigate nature. It usually goes unstated, but science is largely built upon this one-thing-at-a -time rule. No rules = sorry, game called on account of obscurity. Science wants one statement, one related set of variables, one question at a time. Too many uncertainties in play = unsafe playing conditions, confusion, nonscience. But as we know, the world doesn't have to play by these rules. Often people come upon knots, clouds of multiple, indivisible considerations. There are more things, etc., Horatio. People will not limit their wondering to well-formed, stand-alone, single-vision questions. To think knotty, cloudy considerations through, we resort to art. (This is not a commutative proposition, tho: I do not say "the thinking-through of gnarly questions = a good-enough definition of art." Art is a means well suited to this need, is all.) Fuzzy logic, and fuzzy set-theory from which it derives, announces itself as a rapprochement between science and the way most people actually think. It arises from the attempt to get computers to behave intelligently--a goal that has not, say the least, been met. I don't believe it is the best way to effect that rapprochement. For one, they haven't come up with an agreeable axiom for fuzzy implication. More importantly, it works by instantiating dummy values in place of uncertainties. I see now that I really agree withLoss Glazier on this: fuzzy logic, if not logic at large, is in a strong sense antithetical to poetics, which works *with* uncertainties. Our Unclear Heritage, so to speak. Do physicists have a different imagination from poets? In this view, not at all; but they do adhere to very different procedures, develop different reflexes, get stuck in different ruts, harbor different expectations, etc., etc. Do footballers have a different imagination from chessplayers? Who would know? Maybe, but . . . --Jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:41:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: from "Alan Sondheim" at Jun 27, 95 05:00:00 pm Re: > > Alan looking forward to the new Annette Messager show and catalog at > LACMA - > Oh do -- it is great, we saw it in Paris in May, & the catalogue is worth getting, absolutely splendid. -- & anybody on the list who may not know Messager's work -- if you can get to LACMA do so! ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 03:02:32 EDT Reply-To: beard@metdp1.met.co.nz Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: beard@MET.CO.NZ Subject: Re: bedside reading My bedside/coffeetable/briefcase reading lists: Bedside: _Selected Poems 1950-65_ Robert Creeley _Lacan_ by Malcom Bowie (a good cure for insomnia) _Back in the USA_ by Wystan Curnow Coffeetable: _Holding Company_ by David Howard 1995 Film Festival Programme 1995 Spring/Summer catalogue, V2 by Versace Latest issues of _Sport_ and _Landfall_ Briefcase: _DIA_ by Michele Leggott Latest issue of _Printout_ _Laura's Poems_ by Laura Ranger (material for found poetry) _Smells like Avant-Pop_ by Mark Amerika and Lance Olson (downloaded from Alternative-X) _Mid-latitude Cyclone Models_ (work, not play) ______________________________________________________________________________ I/am a background/process, shrunk to an icon. | Tom Beard I am/a dark place. | beard@metdp1.met.co.nz I am less/than the sum of my parts... | Auckland, New Zealand I am necessary/but not sufficient, | http://metcon.met.co.nz/ and I shall teach the stars to fall | nwfc/beard/www/hallway.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:46:56 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Dear Jim, interesting commentary on Logic. Turning to poems, paintings etc etc, THE ARTS, one finds enigma, paradox, ciphers that remain always resistant to final decipherment, although logic be applied to answering the questions they ask. I don't think of arts as illogical, or subject to vagueness, so much as inviting speculations and dreams with almost no limitation. I note that in this view, artworks are not consumable, because they are inexhaustible. It is not the case, we know, that a painting once seen by one person disappears from sight for evermore. We all know, too, that the answers proposed by one person to the questions it asks does not exhaust its possibilities. Artworks appear to lure one into understanding them, which can be a long and arduous process of discoveries about, for instance, society, self and about the mysterious workings of media. Recuperation and cooptation and consumerisation cannot entirely submerge these possibilities, even thouh they may reduce the social impact of radical novelty. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 20:52:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: <01HS7P6PPGWI9OYY3H@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> from "Jim Pangborn" at Jun 27, 95 08:47:49 pm what's the relationship btwn rhyme and reason? Serendipity and causality? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:10:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Jim Pangborn points out: > Fuzzy logic.... More importantly...works by >instantiating dummy values in place of uncertainties. I see now that I really >agree with Loss Glazier on this: fuzzy logic, if not logic at large, is in a >strong sense antithetical to poetics, which works *with* uncertainties. Our >Unclear Heritage, so to speak. [sorry about the dreadful editing] This is an excellent point that's escaped me until now. It's almost a reaction to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, giving the barest nod to all that escapes reduction to logical principles and then proceding to reduce them anyway, the admission that this reduction is only provisional lost under the extension of logic's dominion. This sounds like an anti-logic, anti-science post, but it's not. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 21:57:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reginald Johanson Subject: bedside reading Next to my bed-cum-magic carpet are nothing but travel books--the good stuff, mind you: Bruce Chatwin, "The Songlines", "What Am I Doing Here" Paul Theroux, "Paddling the Pacific" Paul William Roberts, "A River in the Desert", "Empire of the Soul". Fact is I wish I was them. And if not them then to be at least as good a liar. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 02:47:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: <199506280241.WAA04200@loki.albany.edu> Messager's show at Josh Baer a year ago in NY was the bests show of the season I think along with Holzer's Lustmord. I met her (AM) in Paris years before, she was with Christian Boltanski - she should have been known here all along - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:10:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: from "Alan Sondheim" at Jun 27, 95 05:00:00 pm > I'm on the road (talking in LA) so my reading's what I have here: Heiner > Muller, Material (just got it in German to correlated with the English > texts of his I've read - his writing continues to amaze), the three new > translations of Michel Serres' work (which has always affected my own), > the new James Ellroy, Kroker's Spasm, and Inside the Information Super- > highway, one of my course books, by Nicholas Baran, simple, up-to-date, > thorough.. Alan: Would you pass on the titles of the Serres books? It would be much appreciated. Thanks. Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:15:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: The imaginative procedures of cosmologists David Kellogg: Is risk assessment a kind of fuzzy logical thinking? (Just kidding.) Burt Kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:26:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Jim, Poetry's first functions were to remember things and to explain things (or is the latter mythology cum science?). So today since mallarme, perhaps, poetry is language per se (is this a writing supplement Shaunanne?). And today cosmologists explain in languages that appeal to us (we can't go for the old personification game any longer). As for history, I think of Carnap again and what I take to be his eloquent and ultimately futile insistence on quantification of phenomena (pace, Husserl et al.). But what IS history writing (a supplement). If I'm not making sense then forgive me my confused and I guess confusing ramblings. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 09:33:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? I will be teaching a course in spring 96 called twentieth century aesthetics and technology. any suggestions? Burt Kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu or write via snail: dept of humanities new jersey institute of technology newark, nj 07040 USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 11:36:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: <199506281210.IAA22311@blues.epas.utoronto.ca> The Natural Contract, Genesis, and Between Science and History w/Bruno Latour - there are also the older volumes, Detachment, Hermes, and The Parasite. Alan On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Michael Boughn wrote: > > I'm on the road (talking in LA) so my reading's what I have here: Heiner > > Muller, Material (just got it in German to correlated with the English > > texts of his I've read - his writing continues to amaze), the three new > > translations of Michel Serres' work (which has always affected my own), > > the new James Ellroy, Kroker's Spasm, and Inside the Information Super- > > highway, one of my course books, by Nicholas Baran, simple, up-to-date, > > thorough.. > > Alan: > > Would you pass on the titles of the Serres books? It would be much > appreciated. Thanks. > > Best, > Mike > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? burt: "twentieth-century aesthetics and technology"? first off, my sympathies, but as you must do it, try kenner, also all that baloney about typewriters and the modern poem. scratch technology deeply and you're in the 18th cent.; all reactionaries. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:14:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics re: rhyme/reason, despite ways they're argued apart, reason's rhyme of a productive but attenuated sort, yes? reason tries to be the perfect rhyme, or near it; ever-so-little left over from the equation. reason's for the precious, those w/out energy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:16:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics reason/rhyme: reason's, i think, like a night with your friend when you did everything right but never wrinkled the sheets. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:51:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lee Chapman Subject: Bedside reading The latest pile of not-read-yets (purchased at my local Waldenbooks couple of weeks ago) includes: DISTANT RELATIONS (Carlos Fuentes) THE ALIENIST (Caleb Carr) ASPHODEL (H.D.) TRINITY FIELDS (Bradford Morrow) THE PUSHCART PRIZE '94/'95 (I actually ordered this; glad to see a story from Lucia Berlin's Black Sparrow book, SO LONG, in there; more people should know her work.) CHAIN/2 (Juliana Spahr was nice enough to send a copy; haven't had time to read much yet, but was entirely knocked out by Janet Zweig's HER RECURSIVE APOLOGY, an exercise in extremist excellence.) The list of have-reads includes: ALL ACTS ARE SIMPLY ACTS by Ed Foster (Lovely, thanks, Ed. By the way, is the new TALISMAN out? Any chance I could get a copy??) THE GEOGRAPHICS by Albert Mobilio STROMATA by David Miller BERLIN DIPTYCHON, poems by John Yau, photographs by Bill Barrette I'm in the middle of Bradford Morrow's THE ALMANAC BRANCH (whew! weird! just my style!). Like another on this list (I'm afraid I've forgotten who), I recently received a 1990 novel by one Jim Reagan (Castle King-Four) with that same cryptic note; mine reads: ....this is a peace offering made to you in the memory of (not knowing who the mentioned people are, I'll leave that out)... Never heard of any of them before either. You have to admit, though, he got our attention! For some reason, I find it very interesting to see what different people are reading. Hope this list continues. With love from a newcomer, Lee Chapman (FIRST INTENSITY) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:05:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In message <009928C2.ADAF394E.92@admin.njit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I will be teaching a course in spring 96 called twentieth century aesthetics > and technology. > > any suggestions? you've probably already got this one, but heidegger's the question of technology. and benjamin's the work of art in the age of mechanical reproduction.--what's on yr syallabus so far?--md > > > Burt Kimmelman > kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > > or write via snail: > > dept of humanities > new jersey institute of technology > newark, nj 07040 > USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 10:32:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: <199506280410.VAA05434@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jun 27, 95 09:10:33 pm > > Jim Pangborn points out: > > > Fuzzy logic.... More importantly...works by > >instantiating dummy values in place of uncertainties. I see now that I really > >agree with Loss Glazier on this: fuzzy logic, if not logic at large, is in a > >strong sense antithetical to poetics, which works *with* uncertainties. Our > >Unclear Heritage, so to speak. > [sorry about the dreadful editing] > > This is an excellent point that's escaped me until now. It's almost a > reaction to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, giving the barest nod to all > that escapes reduction to logical principles and then proceding to reduce > them anyway, the admission that this reduction is only provisional lost > under the extension of logic's dominion. > > This sounds like an anti-logic, anti-science post, but it's not. > > Steve > --ana-logic? c ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 14:10:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In-Reply-To: <009928C2.ADAF394E.92@admin.njit.edu>; from "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" at Jun 28, 95 9:33 am and ref. Mark Seltzer's book =Bodies and Machines=, if you haven't already. lisa samuels According to Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT: > > I will be teaching a course in spring 96 called twentieth century aesthetics > and technology. > > any suggestions? > > > Burt Kimmelman > kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > > or write via snail: > > dept of humanities > new jersey institute of technology > newark, nj 07040 > USA > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lindz Williamson Subject: Re: bedside reading In-Reply-To: <199506280457.VAA16586@fraser.sfu.ca> NExt to my lumpy futon is Mikhial Bulgakov's The White Guard Daphne MArletts's Ghost Works Hyemeyohsts Storm's Lightningbolt Good Stuff, eh. -Lindz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rae Armantrout Subject: Re: Bedside reading My list isn't as long as some, but... Alan Golding's FROM OUTLAW TO CLASSIC Agamben's STANZAS Messerli's GERTRUDE STEIN AWARDS FOR INNOVATIVE POETRY Hardy's A PAIR OF BLUE EYES I don't have the books right here so apologies if I got any titles wrong. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 16:35:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jake Berry Subject: Re: Reading lists Reading several at once as usual. And other things. 1. French Poetry 1820-1950 2. Hank Lazer - THREE OF TEN 3. Selected Poems of Stephan Mallarme 4. Complete Poems of Hart Crane 5. Fellini's 8 1/2 6. The Ellington Suites (CD) 7. Tao Magic (Calligraphy and Talismans) That and more. Jake Berry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:08:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Bedside reading In-Reply-To: <950628154641_80220674@aol.com> from "Rae Armantrout" at Jun 28, 95 03:46:42 pm New list (I love this list idea) Bowering A Place to Die (a great spicer circle story opens this) Delilo Mao II Brautigan Willard and his Bowling Trophies (I was reading my brother's copy of The Alligator Report and wanted something in that ilk) M. Duras 2 by Duras (a wonderful wee treasure pblsht by the Coach House gooody basket) Philip K. Dick Puttering about in a Small Land (now, I'm not much of a sci fi fan, but George Stanley insisted I read this. In reture he would read Ethel Wilson's Swamp Angel. Apparently Puttering isn't as good as Scanner Darkly. Anyone read him before?) Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:22:51 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? suggestion, Burt, Johanna Drucker's Theorizing Modernism, sorry no detail on hand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 16:24:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In-Reply-To: a couple of things come to mind--ecclectic thinking but you could go a million ways w/ this as posts already illustrate. Kern's _The Culture of Time and Space_ Clarke's _Rendevouz with Rama_ John Bradley, ed. _The Atomic Ghost_ (GREAT poetry anth) Rand's _The Fountainhead_ (yeah, I know. . . but. . . ) DeLillo's _Ratner's Star_ Foster's _New York by Gaslight and Other Urban Sketches_ This sounds like an interesting course--good luck! --ShaunAnne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:52:48 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Blade Runner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 16:56:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: VP Mail List update just a brief note to let you know that the mail list for concrete/visual, sound and performance poetries is currently in process of being activated. --will keep you posted as developments occur. it should be ready any time now. much positive interest expressed for it which is great. some interesting mail-list title suggestions came in and took a brief survey with friends around the department today. it was either going to be _Calligrams_ (thanks! tony) or _wr-eye-tings_ (cris). the new title is: _WR-EYE-TINGS_ --congratulations cris! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:58:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Pangborn Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? What a territory to cover! I'm muy jealous. Some things you might want to look at (a very incomplete list): Marshall Berman, _All That Is Solid Melts Into Air_ Hugh Kenner, _The Mechanic Muse_ Daniel Czitrom, _Media and the American Mind_ McLuhan, _Understanding Media_ or one of the Fiore collaborations Cecilia Tichey, _Changing Gears_ Heidegger, "The Q. Concerning T." (already suggested, here seconded despite its big-time abstruseness) Benjamin, "On Some Motifs in Baudelaire" Sigfried Giedion, _Mechanization Takes Command_ Peter Jukes, _A Shout in the Street_ Jackson Lears, _No Place of Grace_ Marjorie Perloff, _The Futurist Moment_ Friedrich Kittler, _Discourse Networks_ Have fun! --Jim > >I will be teaching a course in spring 96 called twentieth century aesthetics >and technology. > >any suggestions? > > >Burt Kimmelman >kimmelman@admin.njit.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? pangborn writes: > > > Some things you might want to look at (a very incomplete list): > > Marshall Berman, _All That Is Solid Melts Into Air_ > Hugh Kenner, _The Mechanic Muse_ > Daniel Czitrom, _Media and the American Mind_ > McLuhan, _Understanding Media_ or one of the Fiore collaborations > Cecilia Tichey, _Changing Gears_ > Heidegger, "The Q. Concerning T." (already suggested, here seconded > despite its big-time abstruseness) > Benjamin, "On Some Motifs in Baudelaire" > Sigfried Giedion, _Mechanization Takes Command_ > Peter Jukes, _A Shout in the Street_ > Jackson Lears, _No Place of Grace_ > Marjorie Perloff, _The Futurist Moment_ > Friedrich Kittler, _Discourse Networks_ > > Have fun! > > --Jim > >how cd i forget, the futurist manifesto, or -i if there are more than one. also, avital ronell's the telephone book, though it's a real trip! maybe just a coupla excerpts.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 20:31:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Ryan: >what's the relationship btwn rhyme and reason? Serendipity and causality? Like most thingks that seem to oppose one another, they spend a lot of time becoming one another, blending and blurring boundaries between. Rhyme makes notions reasonable; reason gets broken down and sneaked into rhyme. Causality is a kind of serendipity (you know, it's the kind of serendipity that has a cause), which then lends itself to other branches of other causal chains without ever being quite incorporated within them. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 22:01:53 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? >> I will be teaching a course in spring 96 called twentieth century aesthetics >> and technology. >> >> any suggestions? > >you've probably already got this one, but heidegger's the question of >technology. and benjamin's the work of art in the age of mechanical >reproduction.--what's on yr syallabus so far?--md >> Yes, that's great. But why not also throw in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as well as works by Jackson Mac Low. And perhaps, in considering the alphabet as a technology, Johanna Drucker's Visible Word. I'd also love to know what you end up with. charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:35:22 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Hazel Smith - Poet Without Language ******************************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE is a small press distribution service and writers' resource service designed to help Australian writers, magazines, journals and publishers to reach a wider audience through the internet. As a first step we will be posting information and subscription details for a number of magazines and publishers to a number of discussion groups and lists. AWOL also posts a monthly Happenings list. This is a guide to readings, book launches, conferences and other events relating to Australian literature both within Australia and overseas. If you have any item which you would like included in future listings please contact AWOL on email k.mann@unsw.edu.au (this is a temporary address for the first three week sof July) or write to AWOL, PO Box 333, Concord NSW 2137, Australia. AWOL postings are also available by snail mail - please contact us for details. AWOL will have its own address by the end of July. To contact us please use k.mann@unsw.edu.au - however, it may take sometime to respond to your post. AWOL posts are archived on the WWW at the following address http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au /danny/books/index.html then click on Australian Writing OnLine. ******************************************************************************** Hazel Smith with austraLYSIS: Poet Without Language: Poems, Performance Texts and Text-sound works (Compact Disc: Rufus Records). "...complex verbal rhythms (are) a very exciting extension ..(of) the way rap uses the syllable as a percussive unit" Gail Brennan Sydney Morning Herald "convincing proof of the arrival for good of the female poetic voice"Joy Wallace Pages UK "the impressive title-track...familiar reading styles and predictable voice inflections are disrupted by multi-tracking...the voice becomes a truly flexible instrument"John Jenkins Overland Poet Without Language is a CD of poetry, text-sound and performance works by Hazel Smith. Three of the works,Poet Without Language, Caged John Uncaged and Silent Waves were written in combination with musician Roger Dean.They are performed by Smith with Roger Dean and Sandy Evans, members of the contemporary music group austraLYSIS. In the poems experimentation with language is to the fore and Smith, who now refers to her work as "feminist performance linguistics", demonstrates her central concern with forging a new language, one relevant to her particular position as a woman, musician and poet. The performance texts and text-sound pieces take this quest for a new language further through an exploration of the interface between language and music. This involves the application of musical techniques, such as rhythmic notation, to language, and the use of technologies such as sampling and multi-trackling, so that language is dislocated and re-synthesised into complex semantic and sound structures. Hazel Smith lived in England until she moved to Australia in 1989. Her volume Threely was published by the Spectacular Diseases Imprint in England 1986, and her volume Abstractly Represented: Poems and Performance Texts 1982-90 was published by Butterfly Books in 1991. Some of her work was included in the 1991 anthology Floating Capital: New Poets From London, Potes and Poets Press, U.S.A. A 1994 issue of the U.K. poetry journal Pages is devoted to her work. Hazel has given performances in many countries including Australia, Great Britain, USA, Belgium and New Zealand, and also on the ABC, BBC and US radio. Her collaborations with Roger Dean, have been broadcast extensively, and their piece Poet without Language was nominated by the ABC for the Prix Italia in 1993. Hazel is a lecturer in the School of English at the University of New South Wales. She is also an internationally active violinist and leader of the contemporary music group austraLYSIS. _____________________________________________________________cut here_________ ORDER FORM HAZEL SMITH POET WITHOUT LANGUAGE Compact disc RF005 $27.00 (Australian) including post and packaging Available from: Rufus Records PO Box 116 Paddington 2021 Australia. Telephone: international + 61 2 362 4531. Fax: International + 363 5341. Number of copies:...... ($27.00 Aust. each) Payment enclosed: $...... Send to: Name:........................................................................... ........................................................................... Postal address: .............................................................. .............................................................................. Your Email address ................................... For further information contact Hazel Smith at H.Smith@unsw.EDU.AU (Note Hazel will not be checking her mail until 10 July). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 22:56:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: <199506290331.UAA26356@slip-1.slip.net> from "Steve Carll" at Jun 28, 95 08:31:25 pm I suppose, when I asked this, these were the issues I was thinking about. It seems that rhyme and reason, in my mind, demonstrate and acot out of the paradox you find in "cleave". Causality and serendipity, as Steve nicely states it, do tend to bleed into and out of one another, which raises in my mind difficult narrative issues. I think it was Hume who argued along these lines, positing that the eight ball sinks by virtue of perfect coincidence, autonomous. Any hand is as likely as a royal flush. I'm not sure hou to handle this in the narrative I want to spin, but it seems, at one angle, that all of these matters result from desire; a desire for pattern which mean by both predictability (Zola or James) and, on the other side, astonishing improbability (aleatoric or OUlipean). Steve wrote: > > Ryan: > > >what's the relationship btwn rhyme and reason? Serendipity and causality? > > Like most thingks that seem to oppose one another, they spend a lot of time > becoming one another, blending and blurring boundaries between. Rhyme makes > notions reasonable; reason gets broken down and sneaked into rhyme. > Causality is a kind of serendipity (you know, it's the kind of serendipity > that has a cause), which then lends itself to other branches of other causal > chains without ever being quite incorporated within them. > > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:59:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: bedside reading marisa---i just read your note (there are 44 others for me--ugh--and non of them are by you) and thank you for being sympathetic again-- (none of them--not non--belated typo recognition--aren't they all?) and it was good talking earlier and then I sat down with O'Hara (and Lansing--who I'm suppossed to review for Foster--is sooooo stiff by comparison--but then so am i too much)---"sat down with O'hara"-- what a weird phrase---anyway he wrote-- "You enable me, by your least remark, to unclutter myself, and my neerves thank you for not always laughing" Which made me think of a feeling towards you (nerves)-- A feeling towards something between us that is neither you nor I And that doesn't at all seem accurate but vague and the urge to "express the unexpressable" is not perhaps the quickness that makes one want to blow the lid off self-consciousness (so-called "spontaneous" torrents recollected tranquilly) and ask you if you're still looking for "questions for kenneth" (a quiz-show)-- did you (or jordan) ask him whether he thinks he might have had a any influence on O'Hara's work--and if so, where? Many people seem to make their relationship into a one way street--but that can't be true, can it? ----I hope you read this before you go (so you can have it in your head to keep you company on the plane....) Love, chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 23:02:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Green" at Jun 29, 95 11:52:48 am As Tony, I say Blade runner loud. Star wars to boot--both dark and epic. I think Oliver Wendel Holmes wrote about the camera and argued that the image would move beyond record into reality. I read it a while back. Can't recall the title. George Mead and the Chicago School of communication theorists. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 01:16:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian W Horihan Subject: bedreading hello everyone, i've been sort of evesdropping for a while, getting my bearings, and, since this bedside reading list is fun and inviting, i thought i'd go and venture a post. so, though i feel rather young and unqualified, here's mine: PRISON NOTEBOOKS, A Gramsci WHAT IS CINEMA? V.1, Andre Bazin UNDERGROUND CINEMA, Parker Tyler SONNETS and MEMORIES, Bernadette Mayer (thanx for these md, enjoying and trying to get through them) MIRACLE OF THE ROSE (again), J Genet APPARATUS, ed. Theresa Hak Kyung Cha TEARS OF EROS, G Bataille Various things on ancient Greece for summer class i think i'll have to look at that MS FOUND AT SARAGOSSA people have been mentioning. and a film w/ music by penderecki, wow goodnight, brian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 02:52:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: bedside reading My two cents (heavily restricted of late due to moving--I still have 20+ cartons of books, mostly fiction & poetry, boxed in the attic waiting for the arrival of $1000 in bookcases I bought on Monday): Snow Crash by Neil Stephanson (very good, but not as good as the blurbs on the jacket make out) Heat, by Stuart Woods (his worst--I may never read another...) Pronto, by Elmore Leonard (he's become very gentle and humorous since he stopped drinking) Sessions, by Eli Goldblatt (Chax Press! Some wonderful pieces here that reminds me a lot of my own impulses in the poem "Hidden"--I haven't met Eli yet, but since we now live in the same area, I'm looking forward to it) Culture on the Brink: Ideologies of Technology, edited by Gretchen Bender & Timothy Drucker (lots of "celebrity" critics--Aronowitz, Laurie Anderson, Andrew Ross, Paula Treichler, Kathleen Woodward, Langdon Winner--mostly showing how little knowledge of technology they really have) CIO magazine Service News Information Week--the best technology mag around PC Week Been waiting for my sub to The Nation to catch up w/ me on this coast.... Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 03:08:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? I totally agree w/ Walter Benjamin and w/ Marshall Berman. I would also include Society of the Spectacle by Guy DeBord, Writing Degree Zero by Roland Barthes, What is Literature? by Sartre, recent writing (about PCs and poetry) by Charles Bernstein, Mayakovsky's How are Verses Made, Williams Spring & All, Perelman's The Trouble with Genius, Fred Jameson on Late Capital As for Blade Runner (a great movie I've seen 5 or 6 times), I'd use it only if/as I used Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick. (Also Dr. Bloodmoney, The Man in the High Castle). Good point for talking about essentialism in forms... Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon, Dhalgren by SR Delaney, Geek Love, work by Cage and Duchamp Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:56:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In-Reply-To: <199506291008.DAA12171@ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Jun 29, 95 03:08:24 am Also the superb (& unhappily much neglected) collection of essays on "guns and men in the West; the car as an image of escape, in film, literature and everyday life; fears of invasion from underground or outer space; the interaction of culture and technology in US history -- via American fiction and pulp novels, B-movies and art films, rock lyrics and poetry" by Eric Mottram, called BLOOD ON THE NASH AMBASSADOR (Hutchinson Radius) ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:20:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Burt You might for argument's sake teach some letterpress books from Toothpaste or Burning Deck or Tuumba, or even something mimeoed, as a way to talk about slippage, or restricted access, or receding possibilities. "A Funny Place" by I think Richard Snow about the history of Coney Island from Adventures in Poetry might be suitably perverse about this (and the "period" quality all technological advances keep latent until they're renovated--viz letterpress, mimeo, super-8, pixelvision). Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:28:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Ed, Interesting thought about the 18th century and 20 C tech. How so? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 09:30:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics yes, rhyme in its original and largest sense means agreement. is reason then based on agreement? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:47:14 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? perhaps consider the movie _Koyaanisqatsi-? Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:00:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? To Everyone Who Has Sent Me A List For My Tech/Aesth Course: Thank you so very much for your time, energy and most of all information (data?). The two winners far and away were Heidegger and Benjamin--both of whom I feel have been built upon eloquently by more recent others but still worth the read--though H's two essays, "Building Dwelling Thinking" and "The Thing" are better as far as understanding tech from the philsoophical p of v. I guess that I should--what the heck (gotta practice communicating over the transom in child-talk--thank you, mr. exon)--send my rather antiquated syllabus and will do so soon as I get a moment to upload. Ryan: Have you seen Alan Bullock's essay (in an anthology about Modernism) on the effect of photography on everything, ina way how it engendered Modernism? Lastly, yes I know wht I just said about Heidegger's "Question" but I can't resist sharing with you this brief passage from the essay: "Technology . . . is no mere means. Technology is a way of revealing. If we give heed to this, then another whole realm for the essence of technology will open itself up to us. It is the realm of revealing, i.e., of truth." BK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:28:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: I'm still new to this list, still feeling my way. I didn't catch the original post on this subject, but Tony Green's intervention touched a few issues dear to me heart. On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Tony Green wrote: > I note that in this view, artworks are not consumable, because they are > inexhaustible. It is not the case, we know, that a painting once seen by > one person disappears from sight for evermore. We all know, too, that > the answers proposed by one person to the questions it asks does not > exhaust its possibilities. Artworks appear to lure one into > understanding them, which can be a long and arduous process of > discoveries about, for instance, society, self and about the > mysterious workings of media. Recuperation and cooptation and > consumerisation cannot entirely submerge these possibilities, even > thouh they may reduce the social impact of radical novelty. True enough, but it seems to me that the same thing could be said about most meaningful events, given a context in which one is willing to call that event "art." To put it another way, the cultural framing of an event as artistic encourages the viewer/reader/consumer *not* to throw it away -- such frames say, *watch out, you haven't exhausted this yet* -- whereas other cultural and institutional frames do not. So that the question of its exhaustibility is not inherent in anything having to do with the work as such. I'm sorry, I know the frame is an inadequate and overused metaphor. But you get the drift. (Tony Bennett (the critic, not the crooner) makes a related point in *Outside Literature*, only to say there ain't no outside). My aim is not to say that you *can* exhaust art, but rather to say that inexhaustibility is not *special* to art, even if it might be special (for historical reasons) to aesthetic contextualization. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: bedside reading Hi all. Well, seeing that another young lurker has come out of the shadows emboldens me to also appear. Besides, what better way to join a poetics list than to list what you read? Anyway, here goes: Defoe, Leslie Scalapino At Passages, Michael Palmer Leviathan, Paul Auster Resisting the Virtual Life (anth) about to begin the Decameron Also the discussion of fuzzy logic and/or poetics has been interesting; I'm just getting back into some work I did a couple of years ago, in college, about poetry as a nervous system, taking most of my source material from recent research into neural networks & optics & holography. I think it is spotty poetically, & the net.utopia undercurrent, which I was fairly unaware/uncritical of then, makes me blush now, but I'm still interested in the way scientists are forced to make use of metaphor to do their work. Then I like stealing the metaphors, phrases etc. & making poems out of them. i.e., "The hornlike structures are the last silhouette, the well-known shape of niches in the structure and operation of the nervous system. Human density contains specialized internal packing, and thus maximum surfaces, and thus, while other regions appar to have permeation channels, much of the water may be bound in a gel-like matrix..." One thing I find interesting about contemporary science, related to poetics & art practice in general, is its recent (relative to the arts) discovery of the "process" as an organizing principle. Issa Clubb __________________ Issa Clubb issa@voyagerco.com Voyager Art Dept. (212) 343-4213 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:15:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In message <2D2E935283@as.ua.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > perhaps consider the movie _Koyaanisqatsi-? > > Hank Lazer and apollinaire's zone? --md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:41:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jordan Davis." Subject: Malley Affair Dear Everybody, Juliana Spahr suggested that we drop a line immediately upon reading something interesting. _The Ern Malley Affair_ by Michael Heyward, Faber & Faber, (London, Boston) 284 pp., $12.95 US, $19.99 Canada in paper and available through Barnes & Noble (they have several copies at the Astor Place branch,) is notable for the clarity with which it deals with the complexities of taste, literary identity, and experimental writing. The book seems (from here) a subtle treatment of the literary scene in Australia in the 40s, particularly of the self-regard of Max Harris and the stance of his magazine, _Angry Penguins_, that so irritated James McAuley and Harold Stewart, two poets in an OSS-sounding organization called the Directorate of Research and Civil Affairs, that they manufactured, with the aid of a collected Shakespeare, the Concise Oxford Dictionary, a Dictionary of Quotations, and a US Army report on mosquito control, Ern Malley and his poems. In an afternoon. Ahem. Anti-hegemony and Edgar Allen (sic!) Poe take note: Malley was born in an idle moment that afternoon in the spring of 1943. After lunch McAuley and Stewart had the place to them- selves: there were no urgent telegrams to deal with, no research jobs to finish on the double. Here was their chance to do something they'd fantasized about, take _Angry Penguins_ down a peg or two. Another issue was just out--they thought it reached new heights of pretension. They set to work improvising Ern Malley, their Primitive Penguin, writing his poems out on an army- issue, ruled quarto pad, tearing each page off as they filled it. Heyward is not _totally_ convinced of the merit of the poems, which are collected in the book (as are Malley's Ernst-ish collages), but he does cite defenders of the work including Judith Wright, John Tranter, John Ashbery and Kenneth Koch. Some effects of the hoax were: to unbalance the equation of value between a work of poetry and the name on it; to suggest, very early on, the possibility that work generated by chance and mischief (and with deliberate disregard for taste) can be taken for beautiful and meaningful; and to turn public attention to poetry (albeit disastrously). Anyway, just thought I'd mention it. Love, Jordan PS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:21:58 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Thinking of David Kellogg' comments on institutional framing determining that what it encloses determines how it is understood, I wonder whether that framing isn't in fact based on such separations and distinctions as appear to be fuzzed in the discussion of fuzzy logic in poetics as opposed to unfuzzy logics supposedly outside poetics. If as I guess the things designated as artworks are mainly interesting to look at, hear, whatever, because of their enigmatic and inexhaustible possibilities, then I'd guess the institutional formations are useful and effective, in that respect. That doesn't mean I hope that the actual choices of what is and what is not included as Art are already decided once and for all. On the contrary, the canon can and does shift, and the canon is the site of continual (art) politics. Arthur Danto's sense of something lost and gone forever cannot hold up the process and maintain the limits of art. Yes, if you were to isolate (frame) any "event" (i.e.tell the story of it, photograph it, plan to have it occur, for instance,) -- there could well be someone sho will regard it as really interesting them, as enigma, paradox, etc etc, that is, use it as if it were an art work and want to designate it as such (for inclusion in the canon). But the warning note sounded from the direction of an institutional theory about specifying what is and is not art, as I began to, with respect to fuzzy logic, is something that has stopped me in my tracks for a good half hour. Cheers at some point before Warhol's Brillo Box. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:34:27 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics the Brillo box at the end goes with the Arthur Danto sentence or sandwich, how scrambled did this get? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:48:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: fuzzy bookside bedding Hello poetics, Suppose it may have been noted, but Joe Ross has poems in _Avec_ & _Impercipient_ from something called "The Fuzzy Logic Series"-- he's referred to them as "Ashberyan" and they do seem so. Particularly compared to other of his work. Re my own bed: I'm taken at the moment by _Touch Monkeys: Nonsense Strategies for Reading Twentieth-Century Poetry_ by Marnie Parsons. U.Toronto Press overpriced hardcover. Interesting reading of Stein/Zukofsky/Language through Lewis Carroll, Edward Lear, etc. using Kristeva to very good end. Though she gets Cage wrong I think. But I would. Also the new Hobsbawm _Age of Extremes_ very excellent. Really wanted to like Deirdre Bair's _Anais Nin_ --more interested in Bair than Nin, i.e. why did she choose to write about her following Beckett & Beauvoir-- but it's fallen to the wayside. Also I have many copies of _Aerial 8: Barrett Watten_ beside my bed which I certainly recommend. $12.95 to Aerial/Edge, POBox 25642, WDC 20007. I'll be posting soon a longer description of that as well as backlist info. Lightning w/ logic: dogs bark at strangers. Not enough & too much? or Maybe you had too much too fast. Can the Fuzzy be more than metaphorical? as Chaos Theory was a hot metaphor in the arts a few years ago. Not to dismiss description but I want to see it happen. I mean, The sun _is_ one foot wide. How? Rod Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:02:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: tech/aesth/photography In-Reply-To: <0099298F.AB3649B4.56@admin.njit.edu> from "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" at Jun 29, 95 10:00:46 am Burt, No, I haven't seen the essay you mentioned. Where does it appear? I found where the Holmes schtuff is; I read about it in an essay by Stuart Ewen called "Goods and Surfaces". He also wrote another fine essay on media and aesthetics called "The Marriage Btwn Art and Culture". Both essays can be found in a book called _All Consuming Images_, Basic Books, 1988. I would appreciate the details on the Modernism piece, if you have them. Take care, Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:09:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics In-Reply-To: from "David Kellogg" at Jun 29, 95 11:28:06 am Tony and David, I'm really enjoying these posts on the subject of exhaustability and its orbiting issues. I suppose, at some level, this discussion is propelled by how art plays in a disposable culture. Will the image, as a technological output, or is the image already viewed as disposable, less resonant than the word. Rather than driven by the inertia of art, it appears that we are driven by its dissipation behind us: art fuelled like Wile E. Coyote--driven because the bridge is collapsing behind him, not because there is something on the other side. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:28:05 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Malley Affair >Dear Everybody, > >Juliana Spahr suggested that we drop a line immediately upon reading >something interesting. > >_The Ern Malley Affair_ by Michael Heyward, Faber & Faber, (London, Boston) >284 pp., $12.95 US, $19.99 Canada > >in paper and available through Barnes & Noble (they have several copies at >the Astor Place branch,) is notable for the clarity with which it deals with >the complexities of taste, literary identity, and experimental writing. The >book seems (from here) a subtle treatment of the literary scene in Australia >in the 40s, particularly of the self-regard of Max Harris and the stance of >his magazine, _Angry Penguins_, that so irritated James McAuley and Harold >Stewart, two poets in an OSS-sounding organization called the Directorate of >Research and Civil Affairs, that they manufactured, with the aid of a >collected Shakespeare, the Concise Oxford Dictionary, a Dictionary of >Quotations, and a US Army report on mosquito control, Ern Malley and his >poems. In an afternoon. Ahem. Anti-hegemony and Edgar Allen (sic!) Poe take >note: > > Malley was born in an idle moment that afternoon in the spring > of 1943. After lunch McAuley and Stewart had the place to them- > selves: there were no urgent telegrams to deal with, no research > jobs to finish on the double. Here was their chance to do something > they'd fantasized about, take _Angry Penguins_ down a peg or > two. Another issue was just out--they thought it reached new > heights of pretension. They set to work improvising Ern Malley, > their Primitive Penguin, writing his poems out on an army- > issue, ruled quarto pad, tearing each page off as they filled it. > >Heyward is not _totally_ convinced of the merit of the poems, which are >collected in the book (as are Malley's Ernst-ish collages), but he does cite >defenders of the work including Judith Wright, John Tranter, John Ashbery and >Kenneth Koch. Some effects of the hoax were: to unbalance the equation of >value between a work of poetry and the name on it; to suggest, very early on, >the possibility that work generated by chance and mischief (and with >deliberate disregard for taste) can be taken for beautiful and meaningful; >and to turn public attention to poetry (albeit disastrously). > >Anyway, just thought I'd mention it. > >Love, >Jordan > >PS The 'Ern Malley Affair' had a profound effect on poetry in Australia. It is possible to argue that it was one of the main reasons why modernism virtually bypassed Australian poetry until the late sixities. It took a younger group of poets - John Tranter's so-called Generation of 68 - to storm the journals and over turn the applecart in the late sixities. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:33:42 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: READINGS FOR COURSE IN AESTHETICS AND TECHNOLOGY From: TESLA::KIMMELMAN 29-JUN-1995 20:31:36.96 To: ADMIN::KIMMELMAN CC: Subj: aesthetics and technology To All Tech-Aesthetes: Here as promised is a list, one which I myself have added to though this is not reflected here, which I threw together a couple of years ago when I was first proposing my 20th century Tech and Aesthetics course for college juniors and seniors: Auster, Paul, City of Glass. Barrett, Edward. The Society of Text: Hypertext, Hypermedia, and the Social Construction of Information. Benjamin, Walter. "Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction." Bolter, J. David. Writing Space: The Computer, Hypertext, and the History of Writing. Bullock, Alan. "The Double Image." Carson, Rachel. Silent Spring. Derrida, Jacques, Paraesthetics. ____, The Truth in Painting. Ferguson, Eugene S. Engineering and the Mind's Eye. Goldberger, Paul. The Skyscraper. Hacker, Andrew. Two Nations: Black and White. Hans, James, The Forms of Attention. ____, The Play of the World. Hardison, O. B. Disappearing through the Skylight. New York: Viking. Hindle, Brooke. Emulation and Invention. Heidegger, Martin., Poetry, Language, Thought. ____. The Question Concerning Technology and Other Essays. Huizinga, Johann. Homo Ludens. Johnson, Philip and Mark Wigley. Deconstructivist Architecture. Keller, Evelyn Fox. Secrets of Life, Secrets of Death: Essays on Gender, Language and Science. Kraus, Rosalind E., The Optical Unconscious. Landow, George P. Hypertext: The Convergence of Contemporary Critical Theory and Technology. Malloy, Judy. Its Name Was Penelope. Marx, Leo. The Machine in the Garden: Technology and Pastoral Ideal in America. Miller, Carolyn. "Technology as a Form of Consciousness." Ong, Walter J. Orality and Literacy. Orwell, George. 1984. Perloff, Marjorie. The Futurist Moment. Rothenberg, David. Hand's End. Snyder, Gary. Good, Wild, Sacred. Steinman, Lisa M., Made in America: Science, Technology, and American Modernist Poets. Segal, Howard P. Technological Utopianism in American Culture. Slatin, John. "Reading Hypertext: Order and Coherence in a New Medium." Winner, Langdon. The Whale and the Reactor. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:40:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Re.: David Kellogg's reply viz Tony Green: "Paging Chrysto!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:42:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: bedside reading Issa, Have you seen Ark by Ronald Johnson? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:51:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: tech/aesth/photography Ryan, I think it's a paperback published at least 10 years ago called Essays on Modernism, but I wouldn't swear to this. Let me hunt around and get back to you. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:56:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Bullock Essay Ryan, the essay is called "The Double Image" by Alan Bullock. In a book called Modernism. Ed. by Malcolm Bradbury and James McFarlane. Penguin 1976 (but still worth the read). Cheers, Burt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 21:05:43 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? After reading the suggestions for this tech & aesthetics course below by Ron, and after thinking of my own suggestions and all that I can remember, I have to ask -- Have there been any suggestions of books by women other than Johanna Drucker? Wouldn't it be an exciting task to imagine and teach a course on twentieth century technology and aesthetics using only texts by women? charles alexander >I would also include Society of the Spectacle by Guy DeBord, Writing >Degree Zero by Roland Barthes, What is Literature? by Sartre, recent >writing (about PCs and poetry) by Charles Bernstein, Mayakovsky's How >are Verses Made, Williams Spring & All, Perelman's The Trouble with >Genius, Fred Jameson on Late Capital > >As for Blade Runner (a great movie I've seen 5 or 6 times), I'd use it >only if/as I used Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. >Dick. (Also Dr. Bloodmoney, The Man in the High Castle). Good point for >talking about essentialism in forms... > >Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon, Dhalgren by SR Delaney, Geek Love, work >by Cage and Duchamp > >Ron Silliman > > charles alexander chax press minnesota center for book arts phone & fax: 612-721-6063 e-mail: mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:38:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: tech/aesth/photography In-Reply-To: <199506292202.PAA14673@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Ryan Knighton" at Jun 29, 95 03:02:01 pm Ammendment to the Stuart Ewen essay: it's "Teh Marriage Btwn Art and Commerce", not Culture. sory Rnya lt of topsy twodae ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 23:45:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Knighton Subject: Re: Bullock Essay In-Reply-To: <009929EB.3E6A66C4.35@admin.njit.edu> from "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" at Jun 29, 95 08:56:17 pm Thanx Burt. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:06:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Malley Affair In-Reply-To: <950629164123_80991829@aol.com> I have wanted to read that book for a while. In a review I read somewhere, the reviewer noted, if I remember correctly, that John Ashbery apparently once used Malley in a final exam for a modern poetry course: the exam has two poems, one by "Malley" and one by Kreymborg or some other modernist they haven't read. Anyway, no information is included with the poems. The question goes like this: one of these is a forgery/parody, one is by a "legitimate" modern poet. Which one? Write an essay defending your choice. I have wanted to steal that question ever since. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:08:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? In message <85802.mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > After reading the suggestions for this tech & aesthetics course below > by Ron, and after thinking of my own suggestions and all that I can > remember, I have to ask -- Have there been any suggestions of books by > women other than Johanna Drucker? Wouldn't it be an exciting task to > imagine and teach a course on twentieth century technology and aesthetics > using only texts by women? > > charles alexander > > yay charles. first i shd say that i was so moved by your earlier suggestion that the alphabet be considered a technology that i incorporated it (with proper citation) into a paper i'm working on with a friend --about of all things, women as textile workers and intellectual workers --in which the question concerning technology and women looms (pun partially intended) pretty large. my friend is also a western agricultural historian, and her current research project involves indigenous women's non-plow agricultural technology. many books on women and tech have yet to be written, unless, as yuo have suggested, the common understanding of tech. be considerably widened. --md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:41:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics distinction between rhyme and reason is false; reason is subcategory of rhyme, as is, fer instance, set theory, capitalism. correspondence. conventional ding-ding-ding rhyme is/was to be metaphor for the rest in infinite webbed universe. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:49:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Burt (fellow tech prof): re: 18th/20th cent. parallel, we'd better get together for lunch on that one, has to do with current tech strains rooted in the enlightenment and amazing faith in binary thought--i.e., thinking only what's predicated. -ed ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:49:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: bedside reading >Have you seen Ark by Ronald Johnson? no... do tell. issa __________________ Issa Clubb issa@voyagerco.com Voyager Art Dept. (212) 343-4213 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:53:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Edward Foster Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics is reason based on agreement, asks burt. don't know what reason is based on but, yes, agreement, correspondance, of a certain kind through, in, of time. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:01:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "M. Magoolaghan" Subject: Re: fuzzy bedside reading logic In-Reply-To: <950629174816_81037585@aol.com> Dear All, Not sure what the point of this exercise is--seems kinda pretentious to me. But hey, I'm as pretentious as the next guy/gal, maybe moreso. So here's my contribution to the onerous summer reading list: 1) Richard Shusterman, _Pragmatist Aesthetics_, Blackwell 1992. Chap. 2 gives a concise history of the study of aesthetics that might be relevant to those involved with the thread on art & aesthetics a while back. 2) Hilary Putnam, _Realism with a Human Face_. Pragmatism in a non-Rortian/poststructuralist key. 3) Theodor Adorno, _Kierkegaard: Construction of the Aesthetic_, trans. & intro. by Robert Hullot-Kenter. Hullot-Kenter read a mind-blowing paper at BlaserFest '95 on the link between ethics & aesthetics. In view of the dominance of the market in shaping aethetic values and reception and the cancellation of the possibility of meaningful ethical reflection by pervasive multinational corporate capitalism, he asked, what's the point of beating this non-issue to death? Touche'. 4) Rod Smith's _The Boy_ & Jeff Derkson's _Dwell_ (poems). 5) Aerial 8 (fantastic issue) and Raddle Moon 13, special section on "Woman/Writing/Theory." And just in: Situation 9 (thanks Mark!). 6) Edgar O'Hara, _Cedazo Tan Chucaro_. Anyone else interested in this dynamite Peruvian poet? 7) Leslie Anne Boldt-Irons, _On Bataille: Critical Essays._ 8) Don Byrd, _The Poetics of the Common Knowledge_. Indispensable wisdom. 9) Paul Fry, _A Defense of Poetry_. Possibly dispensable wisdom. 10) Robert Musil's _The Man without Qualities_. Where has this guy been all my life? A serious revelation. _Five Women_ (just finished) also amazing. 11) _The Guitar Handbook_. Oh, and if Hank Lazar can mention Coltrane as bedside reading, let me mention Mingus' _Ah hum_ and _Mingus Dynasty_, serious jazz for serious hepcats. I read these simultaneously while standing on my head and composing violin sonatas using aleatoric methods derived from chaos theory. Pretentious enough for ya? MM ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Smile, reality is exactly as it is represented in our conceptual scheme. --Norm Mooradian Michael Magoolaghan ! Box 354330 University of Washington ! Seattle, WA 98l95-4330 Dept. of English ! mmagoola@u.washington.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 12:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: women & tech A couple of good books about women and technology by women: - Lana Rakow, Gender on the Line, about women and the telephone - Joli Jensen on women and the typewriter, dono't have the title here Sandra Braman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John F Roche Subject: Tech and aesthetics/how to teach I'd add Henry Adams' chapter "The Virgin and the Dynamo," from _The Education_. Also, Dos Passos, _Manhattan Transfer_, and Tillie Olsen, _Yonnondio_. Anything by Louis Sullivan, Frank Lloyd Wright, Lewis Mumford, or Paolo Soleri. Critical studies include Miles Orvell, _The Real Thing_; John Kasson, _Amusing the Million: Coney Island at the Turn of the Century_; Jeffrey Meikle, _Twentieth Century Limited_; Richard G. Wilson, et. al., _The Machine Age in America_; and John Kouwenhoven's chapter on "Steel, Stone, and Jazz" in _Made in America_, Eileen Boris, _Art and Labor_; Jeanne M. Weimann, _The Fair Women_; and Alan Trachtenberg, _Brooklyn Bridge, Fact and Symbol_.. Also Chaplin's "Modern Times" and documentaries like "The City," "The River," "The Plough That Broke the Plains," and "The World of Tomorrow." John Roche ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:37:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: women & tech In-Reply-To: <199506301733.AA16184@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>; from "braman sandra" at Jun 30, 95 12:33 pm for more 'women & tech', see at least some parts of Donna J. Harraway, =Simians, Cyborgs, and Women. The Reinvention of Nature= ls ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:17:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: writing as technology In-Reply-To: <2ff4056d2c52002@maroon.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Jun 30, 95 09:08:48 am Well, just to bring the circle of discussion around, it was Buckminster Fuller who first talked about writing as the first technology .... S Braman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:34:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: malley affair Well of course I was wrong about Ashbery, it wasn't Kreymborg or even a modernist but *Geoffrey Hill*, and the story, including the full text of Ashbery's exam question, is told in The Ern Malley Affair pp. 233-4 (which book I just got from the library to accompany me to Quebec next week -- will be incommunicado, return the 8th.) Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg The moment is at hand. University Writing Program Take one another Duke University and eat. Durham, NC 27708 kellogg@acpub.duke.edu --Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:50:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: women & tech In-Reply-To: <199506301733.AA16184@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> how about Elizabeth Gaskell's _North And South_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 19:15:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: women & tech In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > how about Elizabeth Gaskell's _North And South_ or some stuff by constance penley. donna haraway's been mentioned. she's a goodie, too. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 17:38:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics >yes, rhyme in its original and largest sense means agreement. is reason >then based on agreement? Burt: Blake thought so--that's why he was against it (it messed with his notion of visionary individualism). The scientific paradigm, that product of the Age of Reason, is basically an agreed-upon set of assumptions about the way the world works, which becomes the basis for all scientific work (Cf. Thomas S. Kuhn, _The Structure of Scientific Revolutions_.) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 17:38:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics >Tony and David, >I'm really enjoying these posts on the subject of exhaustability >and its orbiting issues. >I suppose, at some level, this discussion is propelled by how >art plays in a disposable culture. Will the image, as a technological >output, or is the image already viewed as disposable, less >resonant than the word. Rather than driven by the inertia of >art, it appears that we are driven by its dissipation behind us: >art fuelled like Wile E. Coyote--driven because the bridge is >collapsing behind him, not because there is something on the >other side. > >Ryan And since Heidegger's name has been popping up lately, I'll throw this in: "the poet also uses the word--not, however, like ordinary speakers and writers who have to use them up, but rather in such a way that the word only now becomes and remains truly a word" ("Origin of the Work of Art") Tetsuaki Kotoh, interpreting this stance, writes that : "As *Gerede* ["idle talk" or "chatter"], language...provides comfort and security by giving everything out as unmysterious and self-evident...[but at times] language as *Gerede* collapses and is no longer viable...when the meaning-relations of everyday language collapse as a whole, one is thrown into an incomprehensible chaos of phenomena without meaning...the world becomes disconnected from language and floats by itself...one is unable to speak...the moment of combustion is pure silence beyond where language is exhausted...there the primordial reality of the world, which cannot be reached by language, keeps silently boiling up...the language of the true self emerges from this silence."(in _Heidegger and Asian Thought_, U of Hawaii Press, 1987) Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 18:00:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: fuzzy bedside reading logic >Dear All, > >Not sure what the point of this exercise is--seems kinda pretentious to >me. But hey, I'm as pretentious as the next guy/gal, maybe moreso. So >here's my contribution to the onerous summer reading list: So what is this exercise pretending to do that it's not in fact doing? Just askin', Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 18:00:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? How about Italo Calvino's _Cosmicomics_? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:05:57 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Maria, I enthusiastically recommend for a solid intro. Walter Ong's book Orality and Literacy (re. alphabet as tech, etc.). I guess the alphabet is inevitably to be seen as a technology since it comes with writing. You might want to look at Hand's End by David Rothenberg who builds on Heidegger; R argues that language is a technology (I'm only half convinced and doubt I'll go the other half but who knows?). Also I recommend Evelyn Fox Keller's books especially the earlier stuff though the later is more elaborated but more hastily written and thus for me not as satisfying a read. Also Marion Namenwirth's stuff. Both address women and science / women and technology mostly having to do with the way the cultures of science and tech work and showing how scientific knowledge is "skewed" by male perceptions. Very interesting and at times even exciting stuff. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:10:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Poetics Ed, Reason is subcategory of rhyme out of Plato? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:11:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Ed, Okay on lunch and 18th century until Heisenberg, no? Where you wanna eat and when? Burt PS Let's do backchannel? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:16:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: writing as technology Sandra, where can I read more about Bucky and writing? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 18:31:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: tech and aesthetics / how to teach? Chax wrote, rightly, Have there been any suggestions of books by >women other than Johanna Drucker? Wouldn't it be an exciting task to >imagine and teach a course on twentieth century technology and aesthetics >using only texts by women? > Somebody mentioned Avital Ronnell and I think Stein was also cited. I would add Donna Haraway's _Simians, Cyborgs and Women_ (her "Manifesto for Cyborgs," included here, was first published in Socialist Review). Still the best single source on "pomo" topics there is. Anything by Sandra Harding on feminism & science would also be of value, tho she is, by nature, a more "normative" academic author. Meaghan Morris (sp?) has done work on malls that would be good to juxtapose with Baudelaire & w/ Benjamin on Baudelaire. (and, generally, I don't agree that people have gone beyond Benjamin in writing on technology, with the possible exception of Haraway. Benjamin's work has brought forth an enormous amount of deritive drivel, attempts at a politicized MacLuhanism. But it's precisely how he is NOT a MacLuhan that is of interest. I'd add Kathy Acker and several poets whose work shows up in discussion on this list. There are real questions of genre that also enter into this discussion. Just a thought, Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:22:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: boulder CO a few weeks ago i wrote in response to the question "what do you want to see happen on the list" that i wanted a community, a kindred spirit in every port. Now, i'm setting out on a road trip to boulder CO where I will spend at least a week, possibly two. any boulderites on the list I cd meet while i'm there? are there any listers who know of inexpensive places to stay for a coupla nights? i'm taking at least a week's worth of poetics classes at naropa, am anxious to keep my expenses down, and haven't yet been able to find lodgings (nobody answers their phones there it seems). i'm taking laptop and modem with, so please don't hesitate to post or back-channel me any time in the next week or so. thanks. i'm also suffering terrible performance anxiety about taking these workshops, since i did it in my early 20 in the late 70s and got a bit battered by some macho style criticism. as a "critic" primarily, i feel inadequate to the task of "producing" poetry --i'm not spontaneous enough, not hip enough, i'll be exposed as a fraud, etc....so, sorry everyone for this abjectionist slip, but that's where it's at tonight, june 30, 1995, as i stand on the brink of whatnext. blaser's going to be there next wk, hope to catch some of the afterglow of the blaserfest that's been on everyone's lips and fingertips of late.--maria